←2010-11 2010-12 2011-01→ ↑2010 ↑all
2010-12-01
00:00:02 <nooga> avarything should be a pointer
00:00:13 <nooga> like in a goddamn C# or something
00:01:03 -!- augur has joined.
00:01:05 <Sgeo> Why is Factor more popular than Newspeak?
00:01:15 <Sgeo> Why am I comparing apples and oranges?
00:01:17 <elliott> Sgeo: SHUT
00:01:19 <elliott> Sgeo: UP
00:01:23 <Sgeo> <insert Gregor reference here>
00:01:28 <elliott> what
00:01:33 <elliott> ... so anyway, ok seriously, what's the easiest way to become nobody in a shell script
00:01:46 <Vorpal> elliott, su nobody <command>?
00:01:48 <Vorpal> or such
00:01:59 <Sgeo> Wouldn't that require root access?
00:02:03 <elliott> Vorpal: require's nobody's password. it, of course, has none.
00:02:13 <Vorpal> elliott, root shouldn't need it
00:02:15 <elliott> Vorpal: sudo works for any user, of course, but requires the user's password
00:02:18 <elliott> Vorpal: indeed, i'm not root
00:02:26 <Vorpal> elliott, then you can't change user
00:02:29 <elliott> Vorpal: yes you can
00:02:35 <Vorpal> elliott, and you can use sudo
00:02:37 <elliott> $ sudo -u nobody whoami
00:02:38 <elliott> [sudo] password for elliott:
00:02:38 <elliott> nobody
00:02:40 <Vorpal> elliott, to do it without password
00:02:43 <elliott> as i said, pointlessly requires the user's password
00:02:52 <elliott> also, i'd rather not depend on sudo
00:02:53 <Vorpal> elliott, yes indeed sudo is suid root
00:02:56 <Vorpal> that is why it can do it
00:02:59 <elliott> yes...
00:02:59 <Vorpal> su is suid root too
00:03:03 <elliott> you still haven't answered my question
00:03:24 <Sgeo> Stop trying to hack into nobody's account! nobody runs web servers!
00:03:24 <Vorpal> elliott, but you can't do it without having root or *effectively having root thanks to being suid root*
00:03:33 <Sgeo> (Or, well, should. Regular users shouldn't)
00:03:42 <elliott> Vorpal: the latter is slightly acceptable.
00:03:45 <elliott> Vorpal: the former is not
00:03:45 <Vorpal> Sgeo, no it shouldn't. A special www user should
00:03:52 <Sgeo> Vorpal, ah.
00:03:52 <elliott> Vorpal: any user on a system should be able to build a package
00:03:56 <Vorpal> elliott, the latter wouldn't work on the shell script
00:04:08 <elliott> Vorpal: i could just write an asnobody.c
00:04:16 <elliott> but...
00:04:16 <Vorpal> elliott, sure
00:04:25 <Vorpal> elliott, that is what you would have to do
00:04:26 <elliott> i don't really like strictly more setuid programs than necessary :)
00:04:34 <Vorpal> elliott, or use sudo with NOPASSWD
00:04:40 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm tempted to
00:04:54 <Vorpal> I think is is a bad idea though in general
00:04:56 <elliott> Vorpal: (I wonder why there isn't an asnobody already, all it can do is reduce privileges...)
00:04:58 <elliott> why?
00:05:16 <Vorpal> elliott, it feels insecure. Could they mess up for other users also building packages?
00:05:39 <Vorpal> elliott, what else on the system uses nobody?
00:05:39 <elliott> Vorpal: not really
00:05:49 <elliott> well
00:05:56 <elliott> i guess they could rm -rf it
00:06:05 <elliott> what we really need is asnewtemporaryuser :)
00:06:15 <Vorpal> elliott, plash?
00:06:28 <elliott> Vorpal: debian-specific, and WAY overblown for this
00:06:35 <elliott> Vorpal: it's as simple as setuid(rand()) :P
00:06:37 <elliott> well
00:06:44 <elliott> Vorpal: it's as simple as setuid(max_uid_in_etc_passwd+rand()) :P
00:07:05 <Vorpal> indeed
00:07:43 <elliott> Vorpal: i might actually just use su here, it may end up that you need to run it as root anyway
00:07:48 <elliott> Vorpal: due to busybox tar not having --owner=
00:08:37 <Vorpal> elliott, why do you use busybox?
00:08:47 <elliott> Vorpal: as opposed to?
00:08:53 <Vorpal> elliott, also if you are packaging projects what about stuff that needs to install as separate uses
00:08:54 <Vorpal> users*
00:09:00 <Vorpal> elliott, just look at qmail for example
00:09:05 <Vorpal> several different users
00:09:20 <Vorpal> qmailq, qmails and so on iirc
00:09:21 <elliott> Vorpal: --owner just changes the owners of the files
00:09:47 <Vorpal> elliott, yes and they need to be different owners. Not all should be changed to root
00:09:54 <elliott> Vorpal: postinstall script :P
00:09:58 <Vorpal> ah
00:10:01 <elliott> Vorpal: it's because packages aren't built as root for obvious reasons
00:10:05 <elliott> i mean there's little other option really
00:10:17 <Vorpal> night →
00:10:18 <elliott> postinstall script for the rare such package is probably the easiest way
00:12:04 <Ilari> APNIC: 3.67 /8s in RIR Pool... And APNIC is extremely likely to get the last 2x/8s.
00:14:24 <Sgeo> There's apparently work on NS3
00:14:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
00:20:34 <elliott> pikhq: Question. Should I bother including cc in the build dependencies for any package?
00:20:38 <elliott> Or libc?
00:20:40 <elliott> I'm lazy, you see.
00:20:51 <fizzie> fakeroot is always an option. :p
00:20:53 <pikhq> elliott: I say "yes".
00:21:02 <elliott> fizzie: requires dynamic linker.
00:21:07 <elliott> fizzie: so no, in fact
00:21:16 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, but... who tries to compile a package without them? :P
00:21:24 <pikhq> Though most distros just say "If it's in the base system, it's not marked as a dependency of anything."
00:21:24 <elliott> (Fine, fine...)
00:21:30 <elliott> pikhq: No they don't!
00:21:36 <elliott> Well. Debian doesn't.
00:22:22 <pikhq> Yeah, that's because Debian doesn't fuck around.
00:23:50 <elliott> pikhq: I most definitely fuck around!
00:23:52 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
00:23:56 <fizzie> Well, fakeroot with some sort of ptrace-hooked syscalls, then. The elegant choice!
00:23:58 <elliott> My package manager is like a piece of string!
00:24:00 <Ilari> Then there's less known problem of ASN depletion.
00:24:07 <elliott> pikhq: The string is FLIMSY!
00:24:16 <elliott> pikhq: Hey, an Actual Runtime Dependency for vi.
00:24:18 <elliott> pikhq: (termcap)
00:24:24 <elliott> pikhq: Well. termcap-db.
00:24:28 <elliott> (Got a better name for that?)
00:24:53 <elliott> # The preferred choice for ex on Linux distributions, other systems that
00:24:53 <elliott> # provide a good termcap file, or when setting the TERMCAP environment
00:24:53 <elliott> # variable is deemed sufficient, is the included 2.11BSD termcap library.
00:24:53 <elliott> #
00:24:53 <elliott> TERMLIB= termlib
00:25:07 <pikhq> Ilari: ... ASN depletion.
00:25:11 <pikhq> Ilari: Oh fuck.
00:25:33 <elliott> pikhq: Oi oi oi we're naming packages here! Focus on the important stuff!
00:26:30 <Ilari> There's of course an upgraded spec that solves it. But you need upgraded systems to peer with AS with extended ASN...
00:26:31 <pikhq> Oh, it was extended to 32 bits a few years ago. I hope that the BGP routers actually have been updated.
00:26:53 <elliott> pikhq: So what should I call the termcap db. :p
00:27:06 <elliott> (Or is it all terminfo these days? As quoted, vi uses 2.11BSD termcap.)
00:27:06 <pikhq> elliott: termcap-db
00:27:09 <elliott> (Are the files the same?)
00:27:50 <elliott> pikhq: Not termdb?
00:27:58 <elliott> Is there any other kind of terminal database other than termcap, really?
00:28:31 <pikhq> Terminfo.
00:28:54 <elliott> pikhq: Can't that read termcap files?
00:29:03 <Ilari> At least ASN upgrade should be less of a hassle than IP upgrade, since only systems that peer with extended ASNs need to be upgraded.
00:29:39 <elliott> pikhq: I mean, I really don't want to fuck around with terminfo because it uses binary files and crap.
00:30:06 <elliott> pikhq: Please validate me :P
00:30:08 <fizzie> You can convert to/fro termcap file / terminfo database, at least up to some extent.
00:30:09 <pikhq> elliott: Pretty sure they're incompatible.
00:30:12 <elliott> Bleh.
00:30:18 <elliott> I'll just build everything with termcap and hope for the best.
00:30:22 <elliott> Or, in fact.
00:30:28 <elliott> pikhq: I'll offer both termcap and terminfo in the same package.
00:30:33 <elliott> So, termdb.
00:30:54 <pikhq> There you go.
00:31:07 <elliott> Yep. :P
00:31:20 <elliott> Goodnight.
00:31:24 <pikhq> Hmm. Seems that some programs explicitly call out to termcap or terminfo...
00:31:34 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:31:35 <pikhq> Gag.
00:32:10 <fizzie> I don't seem to have termcap files anywhere any more.
00:36:14 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:37:33 <fizzie> Debian seems to have thrown out their old "termcap-compat" package. (They just ship a ncurses "libtermcap" that actually reads terminfo; termcap-compat was for old code you couldn't for some reason or another recompile. And/or those people with custom termcap reading code.)
00:40:38 <fizzie> Already five years ago, in fact.
00:43:28 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services).
00:43:32 -!- Sasha has joined.
00:43:50 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined.
00:44:26 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314.
00:44:27 -!- oklofok has joined.
00:44:51 -!- Sasha2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
00:47:25 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
00:48:46 <Sgeo> "Files are extremely important in current computing experience. Much too important. Files should be put in their place; they should be put away."
00:50:10 <Sgeo> "Ultimately, it is about control: If you dont have a file system, it becomes harder for you to download content from unauthorized sources. This is also good for security, and in a perverse way, for the user experience. And its also good for software service providers." suddenly, I feel ill
00:51:19 <Sgeo> I don't think this person actually supports that as a reason to get rid of file systems
00:53:17 <oklofok> everything implies a true proposition
00:54:21 <oklofok> (that file systems should be gotten rid of)
00:55:08 <oklofok> i don't really understand what he's saying
00:55:32 <Sgeo> http://gbracha.blogspot.com/2010/02/nail-files.html
00:57:15 <Gregor> Spamusers fails at sodomy.
00:57:25 <oklofok> he's correct
00:57:30 <oklofok> the nail guy
01:00:08 <oklofok> i still don't see what the security thing was
01:00:36 <oklofok> does he assume that with objects comes some sort of not being able to download arbitrary objects and do whatever the fuck you want with them
01:00:52 -!- madbr has joined.
01:19:09 -!- Sasha2 has joined.
01:19:10 -!- Sasha has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:21:12 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:22:14 -!- Sasha has joined.
01:23:22 -!- Sasha2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:34:36 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
01:46:23 <Ilari> "This proposal should be considered an emergency proposal. IANA
01:46:36 <Ilari> exhaustion is likely to occur prior to the next ARIN meeting."
01:46:37 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:47:04 <Ilari> ... Looks like the depletion is expected to occur very soon...
01:47:10 <pikhq> Ilari: Hmm?
01:47:13 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
01:48:53 <Ilari> Looking at when APNIC could justify allocation, depleting the pool completely... The IANA depletion could occur at any moment.
01:49:04 <pikhq> The next ARIN meeting is apparently early April.
01:49:13 <pikhq> Wait, the IANA depletion could occur *any moment*?
01:49:23 <pikhq> Dang.
01:50:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
01:50:37 <Ilari> Formally, the depletion estimates have not changed because APNIC allocates last, but in practice, the date may have changed...
01:52:17 <Ilari> An that "at any moment" comes from global policies. APNIC probably could justify allocation even now.
01:52:19 <pikhq> So. D-day is basically any time in the next 5 months or so.
01:54:18 <Ilari> I think it is in next 3 and half months...
01:54:56 <pikhq> I'm allowing for *extreme* optimism.
01:57:26 <pikhq> Some bastard is going around suggesting that companies think about IPv6 migration "in the next 2-5 years".
01:57:40 <pikhq> By which time the Internet will have been full for several years.
01:57:42 <Sgeo> o.O
01:58:02 <Ilari> Even Houston model, which seems optimistic predicts 04-Mar-2011 ... That's sightly over 3 months away...
01:58:25 <pikhq> Yeaaah.
01:59:19 <Ilari> Now there's new predictions about X-day this year.
01:59:34 <pikhq> Link?
02:00:25 <Sgeo> So, celebrations in 3 months?
02:00:26 <Sgeo> >:D
02:00:40 <Sgeo> AFK SGU
02:01:00 * Gregor laughs maniacally
02:01:30 <Ilari> Prepare for having to do it sooner... A lot sooner...
02:03:05 <Ilari> Well, no official model predictions... But informal ones...
02:10:01 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
02:12:05 <Ilari> Wonder when next IPv6 allocation will occur (bringing the pool down to 505 blocks, which is under 99%)...
02:13:20 <pikhq> It amazes me that even 1% has been used. IPv6 is just so very, very large...
02:14:30 <Ilari> 1 various block and 5 RIR blocks... IIRC, the actual amount of delegations is 0.027% or so...
02:14:57 <pikhq> *Ah*.
02:15:06 <Ilari> That is, those allocations are at about 2.7 or so...
02:15:10 <Ilari> *2.7%
02:15:10 <pikhq> It's being pieced up from the IANA in ridiculously large blocks, then.
02:15:35 <Ilari> /12s ... 1M * 2^32 networks.
02:15:58 <pikhq> Yeah, that's a pretty gigantic block.
02:21:53 <Ilari> Oh, and then there are 3456 blocks in undefined address ranges...
02:22:23 <Ilari> IPv6 address space is just gigantic.
02:24:20 <pikhq> Oh, right. Currently the IPv6 space is *only defined* in 2000::/3
02:27:50 <Ilari> Global unicast space, that is. There are also some other blocks, such as ULA space and broadcast space.
02:28:17 <pikhq> Wow. The "NFL International Series". A scheme whereby the NFL plays a regular season game in London.
02:28:37 <pikhq> ... I didn't know American football had any fans at all outside of North America.
02:31:29 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:34:06 <Ilari> Heh... The "realtime" IPv4 depletion counter that uses the Houston model is down.
02:34:13 <pikhq> Hmm. There's an American football World Cup. The US didn't play in the first two. XD
02:37:04 -!- madbr has left (?).
02:38:29 <Sgeo> <3 SGU
02:38:38 -!- Zuu has joined.
02:38:44 <Sgeo> Although I almost thought... meh, no spoilers here
02:39:18 <Ilari> Ah, it works now.
02:47:20 <Sgeo> To a character: "In case you forgot, [spoiler]"
02:47:33 <Sgeo> I think the audience forgot
03:00:40 -!- augur has joined.
03:47:51 -!- guny has joined.
03:48:07 <guny> hi watch my music video!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_Q6U2O-qx4
03:48:09 <guny> hi watch my music video!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_Q6U2O-qx4
03:48:10 <guny> hi watch my music video!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_Q6U2O-qx4
03:48:12 <guny> hi watch my music video!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_Q6U2O-qx4
03:48:14 -!- guny has quit (Client Quit).
03:49:20 -!- zeotrope_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
03:51:10 -!- zeotrope has joined.
03:51:36 -!- zeotrope has changed nick to Guest75069.
04:08:39 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:11:16 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:12:35 -!- wareya has joined.
04:47:03 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: ilua).
04:59:37 <Goosey> I hate being a polite programmer
04:59:44 <Goosey> Why do I have to say please :(
05:20:14 -!- yorick has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
05:27:00 <pikhq> INTERCAL, I presume?
05:37:30 -!- augur has joined.
05:51:25 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
05:52:08 -!- wareya has joined.
05:53:06 -!- yorick has joined.
06:02:30 -!- adu has joined.
06:02:53 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
06:03:28 -!- wareya has joined.
06:08:19 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
06:09:17 <Sgeo> "And when Simon Peyton Jones, one of the designers of Haskell, was asked why Haskell has only such a basic module system, he said that they didn't feel they were smart enough to design a real one. Let that sink in ... The designers of Haskell. Not smart."
06:09:21 <Sgeo> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4057973/osgi-like-modularity-in-other-programming-languages
06:09:25 <Sgeo> Is... that a real thing?
06:14:32 <adu> lol
06:15:22 <adu> Sgeo: i've heard something similar
06:15:38 <adu> but SPJ didn't use the word "smart" in the version i read
06:16:01 <adu> he made it sound as tho it was "sufficient" the way it was
06:19:30 <Sgeo> "The fact that one rarely needs more than one window is one of the things I really like about Hopscotch. Theres no need for a docking bar, or tabs for that matter. Tabs are popular these days, but they dont scale: they occupy valuable screen real estate, and beyond half a dozen or so become disorienting and unmanageable."
06:19:37 <Sgeo> http://gbracha.blogspot.com/2008/07/debugging-visual-metaphors.html
06:19:44 <Sgeo> So much for a tabbed Newspeak browser
06:24:51 <adu> wow OSGi sounds interesting
06:28:07 * Sgeo attempts to redirect adu to Newspeak
06:28:33 <adu> what's Newspeak
06:28:58 <Sgeo> http://newspeaklanguage.org/
06:29:10 <Sgeo> It's the language fawned over in the answer to that SO question
06:30:30 <adu> SO?
06:31:17 -!- Goosey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:32:44 <Sgeo> StackOverflow
06:35:25 -!- Guest75069 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
06:38:22 -!- yorick has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
06:46:20 <adu> Sgeo: Newspeak sounds a lot like io
06:46:37 * Sgeo has only heard of IO and knows nothing about it
06:47:15 <adu> There are several languages I wish could have babies
06:47:34 <adu> Go + Io + Prolog + Haskell
06:47:55 <adu> that would be a cute kid
06:55:57 -!- yorick has joined.
07:02:41 -!- FireFly has joined.
07:10:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
07:16:56 -!- wareya has joined.
07:18:08 <Vorpal> <adu> Go + Io + Prolog + Haskell <-- how would that work?
07:18:37 <adu> well
07:19:02 <Vorpal> adu, oh? you think so?
07:19:06 <adu> yes
07:19:23 -!- Sgeo has joined.
07:19:28 <Vorpal> adu, I can't see how you could reconcile the imperative and purely functional aspects there
07:20:04 <Vorpal> adu, and if you think it would work so well, why not implement it!
07:20:28 <adu> everything Go does would be of type IO () and everything Prolog does would be at the typeclass level
07:20:34 <adu> Io doesn't really fit
07:20:51 <Vorpal> I don't know much about Io so I can't say anything about that
07:21:55 <Vorpal> have to leave now, cya
07:22:02 <adu> There's pretty much a 1-to-1 mapping between (almost) anything imperative and Haskell's IO ()
07:56:56 -!- perdito has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:05:30 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
08:14:26 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:28:45 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
08:28:49 -!- nooga has joined.
08:38:36 <ineiros> fizzie: http://open.spotify.com/album/29dWA4uMn07qxfEAGO3wSh
09:06:01 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
09:08:18 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
09:18:15 -!- FireFly|n900 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
09:20:18 -!- augur_ has joined.
09:20:19 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:23:19 -!- atrapado has joined.
09:32:37 -!- FireFly|n900 has joined.
09:36:51 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
09:37:25 -!- FireFly|n900 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
09:47:53 <fizzie> ineiros: "Uh." (Incidentally, I've never heard any of the in-game music.)
09:51:21 -!- FireFly|n900 has joined.
09:56:10 -!- FireFly|n900 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
10:05:53 -!- perdito has joined.
10:10:36 -!- FireFly has joined.
10:20:34 -!- FireFly|n900 has joined.
10:24:47 <nooga> uh
10:25:01 <nooga> it appears that UK is paralyzed because of some minor snow
10:43:44 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
11:19:44 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
11:24:01 -!- nopseudoidea has joined.
11:40:28 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me).
11:40:39 -!- rodgort has joined.
11:41:54 -!- nopseudoidea has quit (Quit: Quitte).
11:52:54 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
11:55:45 -!- FireFly|n900 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
12:10:02 -!- FireFly|n900 has joined.
12:20:55 -!- myndzi has joined.
12:22:59 -!- Sasha2 has joined.
12:24:59 -!- Sasha has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
12:42:44 -!- FireFly|n900 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
12:42:44 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:43:11 -!- myndzi has joined.
12:50:47 -!- FireFly|n900 has joined.
12:54:31 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
12:55:50 <nooga> great
12:55:59 <nooga> my raytracer now generates modern art
13:04:21 -!- myndzi has joined.
13:20:51 -!- elliott has joined.
13:22:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
13:24:21 -!- Leonidas has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
13:24:25 -!- Leonidas has joined.
13:25:52 -!- sftp has joined.
13:38:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
13:41:05 -!- oerjan has joined.
13:41:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
13:45:29 <elliott> augur_: I find your recent statements about INTERCAL highly offensive
13:56:58 <Phantom_Hoover_> What were they?
13:58:03 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/eecvm/a_compiler_language_which_has_nothing_at_all_in/c17hc7w
13:58:22 <elliott> I think ais523 and oerjan, accomplished INTERCAL programmers, would take great objection to this slight.
14:00:52 <Phantom_Hoover_> Appalling!
14:02:50 -!- FireFly|n900 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
14:08:09 <nooga> elliott: is your school closed?
14:08:20 <elliott> yes.
14:08:25 <nooga> hahhaha
14:08:34 <elliott> i am unsure why you are laughing
14:08:38 <nooga> like what... snow is toxic or what?
14:08:53 <elliott> yes, yes it is.
14:09:20 <elliott> more seriously, i don't suppose you comprehend the idea of driving in heavy snow that continues to fall being perhaps /dangerous/?
14:09:41 <nooga> i do this during whole winter
14:10:18 <elliott> nooga: i think we have firmly established that Poland has not quite come to grips with the concept of safety yet
14:10:26 <nooga> it's not safety
14:10:42 <nooga> ask some secure swedes
14:10:48 <nooga> tehy've got shitloads of snow too
14:10:49 <elliott> guess what, we don't all drive Volvos.
14:11:22 <nooga> duh
14:11:54 <elliott> hmm is it known which s gives SHA-1(s) = 0?
14:11:56 <elliott> is there such an s?
14:12:12 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
14:12:14 <nooga> http://img.wiadomosci24.pl/g2/4b/cd/83/11082_1162885840_b968_p.jpeg
14:12:19 <nooga> + winter tires
14:12:29 <nooga> + modern cars with ASR, BAS and whatever
14:12:33 <nooga> and you're safe
14:13:08 <elliott> nooga: yes, we do indeed remove snow from roads. guess what! we have rural areas.
14:13:15 <elliott> guess what! it takes time to clear the snow from everywhere.
14:14:43 <nooga> AWKWARDNESS
14:16:26 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, well, the schools reopened here today.
14:16:39 <Phantom_Hoover_> Even though the snow is considerably worse than yesterday.
14:16:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: They decided they were open, and upon looking out the window immediately decided that no, they're not open.
14:17:20 <elliott> But yeah, jesus christ, this snow.
14:17:27 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, nope, I went. Although we all went home at lunch.
14:17:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: I meant here.
14:17:52 <elliott> In the frigid southlands.
14:18:03 <Phantom_Hoover_> It's because our cretin of a First Minister said that the schools should reopen and they did, in spite of the police saying the opposite.
14:19:38 <nooga> :F
14:19:52 <nooga> ppl could just walk to school
14:20:05 <Phantom_Hoover_> That's what we mostly did.
14:20:09 <elliott> nooga: i don't think you realise the kind of distances present in britain...
14:20:15 <nooga> oh come on
14:20:22 <Phantom_Hoover_> It's still stupid, especially since the previous two days were both snow days.
14:20:37 <nooga> even in poor Poland we've got schools max 3-4km from home
14:20:44 <Phantom_Hoover_> So apparently once the snow goes over a certain critical depth it ceases to matter.
14:20:47 <nooga> in towns
14:20:50 <elliott> nooga: do you delight in being really fucking stupid?
14:21:02 <nooga> i delight annoying you :D
14:21:04 -!- nopseudoidea has joined.
14:23:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Quick! What's the SHA-1 hash of a directory?
14:23:43 <Phantom_Hoover_> A carrot!
14:23:58 <Phantom_Hoover_> Also, what's the SHA-1 algorithm?
14:24:20 <elliott> Complicated.
14:27:51 <Phantom_Hoover_> Hash algorithms always are...
14:29:59 -!- FireFly|n900 has joined.
14:32:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Not so!
14:32:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CubeHash
14:32:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: The SHA-3 competitor I'm rooting for, thanks djb.
14:33:04 <elliott> (It's not "rooting" is it?)
14:34:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:35:01 <fizzie> I don't think CubeHash is all *that* simpler; the wikipedia doesn't bother listing the round transformation, which is he usual add-rotate-swap-style mess, just like the SHA-1 compression function.
14:35:19 <fizzie> It *is* nice to see something that's not the usual Merkle–Damgård construction though.
14:37:31 <elliott> fizzie: djb instantly simplifies everything he touches. duh.
14:37:57 <elliott> schneier's function has been cryptanalysed a bit cuz he's a luzr
14:38:02 <elliott> I should make "djb facts"
14:38:11 <elliott> although I can't think of any :P
14:38:27 <elliott> Merkle–Damgård construction
14:38:28 <elliott> (Redirected from Merkle-Damgård construction)
14:38:29 <elliott> what
14:38:55 <fizzie> It's a different sort of hyphen.
14:39:17 <elliott> heh
14:39:27 <elliott> the thing in the wikibox links to one that's redirected
14:39:28 <elliott> someone fix that
14:39:41 <fizzie> And that someone could be you!
14:40:05 <elliott> "Although no proof has been constructed, Oozlybub and Murphy is thought to be Turing-complete if and only if Goldbach's Conjecture is true." --cpressey
14:40:24 <elliott> "Oozlybub and Murphy is a programming language. Despite appearances, this name refers to a single language.
14:40:24 <elliott> The majority of the language is named Oozlybub. The fact that the language is not entirely named Oozlybub is named Murphy.
14:40:24 <elliott>
14:40:24 <elliott> For the sake of providing an "olde tyme esoterickal de-sign", the language combines several unusual features,
14:40:26 <elliott> including multiple interleaved parse streams, infinitely long variable names, gratuitously strong typing, and only-conjectural Turing completeness."
14:40:28 <elliott> http://catseye.tc/projects/oozlybub-and-murphy/doc/website_oozlybub-and-murphy.html
14:41:18 <elliott> It even has Unicode support!
14:44:10 <nooga> cpressey is a monster
14:48:16 <Phantom_Hoover_> A monster!
14:51:40 <nooga> BEAST!
14:53:38 -!- Sasha2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:53:45 -!- Sasha has joined.
14:53:55 <elliott> "That's true though. I invented DNA. I also invented the invention itself." --Peter Sunde, Pirate Bay co-founder
14:55:27 -!- augur_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:55:46 <elliott> Hahaha! Huckabee wants to execute Assange.
14:55:53 -!- augur has joined.
14:56:30 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:56:36 -!- augur has joined.
14:56:46 <Phantom_Hoover_> Weird, apparently the Lego MMO is extremely good.
14:56:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> That is not what I would expect at all.
14:57:01 <elliott> "Finally, Julian Assange is no hero. He is a twit. He should not be made into a liberal icon. He gives hackers a bad name. He and his organization are indeed enemies of the U.S. government and the people represented by that government; they should be stopped, and they richly deserve to be punished for this latest leak. And that goes double for the person or people in the U.S. government who leaked the documents in the first place. None of t
14:57:01 <elliott> hese people deserve your support any longer."
14:57:09 <elliott> -- Larry Sanger, solidifying his reputation as... a twit.
14:57:43 <elliott> (The rest of this "essay", if you can call it that -- http://www.larrysanger.org/wikileaks.html -- constitutes basically saying "Well, you see, they're MEANT to be private, because the government decided releasing them to the public would be a bad idea. Therefore it's dangerous to do so, and no government would ever abuse this! DUH.")
14:58:19 <Phantom_Hoover_> I have certain reservations about Wikileaks due to the whole "names of informants" thing, but I wouldn't go that far..
14:58:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Um, they've been redacting names.
14:58:50 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, yes, but they didn't for that earlier military leak.
14:59:03 <elliott> IIRC, they did.
14:59:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: (They also asked the US government for *help* redacting information that could endanger people to minimise any risk. The US refused.)
14:59:09 <elliott> (for the most recent leak)
15:00:57 -!- Sasha2 has joined.
15:01:10 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
15:01:32 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:01:33 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, oh, well. I approve, then.
15:01:59 <elliott> I just love the chain of events there --
15:02:26 <elliott> Wikileaks: Hello, you know those documents we're going to release. We don't want anyone to get hurt; it's in your best interests to help us redact any information that could put people's lives at risk.
15:02:28 <elliott> US: No.
15:02:30 <elliott> [later]
15:02:37 <elliott> Wikileaks: [releases documents]
15:02:52 <elliott> US govt., mass media: That's IRRESPONSIBLE TERRORISM! Think of the LIVES at risk!
15:02:58 <elliott> Hi ais523.
15:03:18 -!- Sasha has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
15:04:15 <nooga> Wikileaks does good work
15:05:45 <Phantom_Hoover_> Even if its founder looks like a bit of a prat.
15:06:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Really? How?
15:07:12 <Phantom_Hoover_> The hair is... silly.
15:07:19 <elliott> His... hair? Seriously?
15:07:36 <elliott> Julian Assange is more a lightning rod than anything else, anyway -- you never hear about anyone but him and just about all you ever hear about him is negative; nobody else gets any shit. That's definitely intentional.
15:08:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Semi-relatedly, have you seen his old blahhg? http://web.archive.org/web/20071020051936/http://iq.org/
15:08:26 <Phantom_Hoover_> Indeed. But his hair is still stupid.
15:08:29 <elliott> It was on reddit a while ago.
15:09:31 -!- nopseudoidea has quit (Quit: Quitte).
15:10:35 <elliott> ais523: in a file of "<sha1hash> <filename>", how would you denote a directory?
15:10:49 <elliott> I've been using an sha-1 length of zeroes, but it's conceivable that some string could actually hash to 0.
15:11:24 <Phantom_Hoover_> "<sha1hash> <directoryname>"?
15:11:25 <Phantom_Hoover_> With a / appended?
15:11:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Umm... what the hell is the SHA-1 hash of a directory?
15:18:10 <Phantom_Hoover_> Oh, right.
15:18:37 <Phantom_Hoover_> Make it "0", then append the / to the name so there's no chance of confusion,
15:19:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Just 0? Not 40 0s?
15:20:18 <Phantom_Hoover_> Fine.
15:20:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
15:22:34 <Phantom_Hoover_> Alternately: make it "<directoryname>", no hash.
15:23:14 <fizzie> Make it a random 40-digit hex string, and then change a single, random digit in there to a "g".
15:24:37 <Phantom_Hoover_> Forget my suggestions, use fizzie's.
15:24:52 <elliott> fizzie: :D
15:25:21 <fizzie> It was optimized for confusion, of course.
15:26:06 <Phantom_Hoover_> fizzie, better: change a random 0 into an O. Or 1 into l.
15:26:38 <elliott> No, I think the g is best.
15:26:45 <elliott> Ooh!
15:26:53 <elliott> Change one "a" into the identical, Cryllic "a".
15:27:00 <elliott> (If there is no a in the string, regenerate it.)
15:27:13 <oerjan> those pesky crylls
15:28:12 <fizzie> Aren't crylls just palette-swapped trolls?
15:28:25 <oerjan> _possibly_
15:28:57 <Phantom_Hoover_> fizzie, zuh?
15:29:37 <elliott> You got 15 out of 19 Programming Language if You Know Their Creators.
15:30:01 <ais523> elliott: I'd just leave the hash out
15:30:09 <elliott> One mistake was really embarrassing... one or two of them I'm proud of... and the last one I just feel meh about.
15:30:13 <elliott> ais523: But that's ugly!
15:30:18 <ais523> or hash the directory itself, they are technically speaking files, just you can't read them via normal methods
15:30:36 <elliott> LOL
15:30:38 <elliott> http://www.sporcle.com/games/supreddit/prog_lang_wirth
15:30:39 <elliott> "Can you name the Programming Language if You Know Their Creators? (Niklaus Wirth Edition)?"
15:30:45 <elliott> best quiz ever
15:30:54 <elliott> ais523: yeah, no :P
15:31:06 <elliott> ais523: "cat" will cat a directory on NetBSD :)
15:31:09 <elliott> as on plan9, but :)
15:31:16 <ais523> hmm, is it decidable whether two regular expressions (actual regular expressions, without backreferences etc.) match the same set of strings?
15:31:32 <elliott> Differences between Oberon-07 and Oberon
15:31:32 <elliott> Niklaus Wirth, 8.8.2007 / 17.12.2007
15:31:32 <elliott> Oberon-07 is a revision of the original language Oberon as defined in 1988/1990.
15:31:35 <elliott> How is the man still alive...
15:31:38 <elliott> ais523: I don't /think/ so
15:31:48 <ais523> really? I was guessing yes
15:31:56 <elliott> ais523: I know that you can't minimise a regexp to its provably shortest form, IIRC
15:31:58 <ais523> oh, obviously yes
15:32:03 <elliott> how?
15:32:10 <ais523> for ordinary regular expressions, you can compile them into state machines
15:32:20 <ais523> then because there's a finite number of states, you can bruteforce
15:32:38 <elliott> oh, obviously
15:32:44 <elliott> I feel silly now
15:32:55 <oerjan> ais523: yes it is decidable
15:33:07 <ais523> yep, I feel a bit silly that I had to ask rather than figuring it out
15:33:16 <oerjan> you can do set difference and union
15:33:17 <ais523> it's a lot less obvious with backreferences involved
15:33:23 <elliott> "- Applied to values of type SET, the unary minus denotes the set complement, and the function
15:33:23 <elliott> ABS yields the number of elements of a set. The relations <= and >= denote set inclusion."
15:33:42 <oerjan> from which you can construct xor of two languages
15:33:42 <ais523> elliott: so you can do - on the empty set, and get a set of everything?
15:33:43 <Phantom_Hoover_> Zuh?
15:33:55 <elliott> ais523: I sure hope so!
15:34:01 <ais523> oerjan: hmm, that's a different proof from the one I gave, and requires assumptions I didn't know
15:34:15 <elliott> I wonder why there is not more literature on I\Xi.
15:34:42 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:35:24 <elliott> ais523: can I have permission to troll the esolangs wiki with a language
15:37:04 <ais523> would the language be at all interesting in its own right?
15:37:14 <ais523> I suppose being created for the purpose of trolling makes a language an esolang
15:37:16 <elliott> ais523: a Turing-complete-and-no-greater language in which all programs nonetheless halt
15:37:18 <ais523> (/me coughs at LOLCODE)
15:37:21 <fizzie> ais523: A regular expression is a DFA, you can construct the minimal equivalent DFA pretty easily, and the minimal DFA (up to state naming) accepting a particular regular language is unique; so just construct the DFA (might have an exponential number of states, though) and minimize it for both regexps; if they are the same, they match the same set of strings.
15:37:35 <ais523> elliott: is that even theoretically possible?
15:37:37 <elliott> ais523: of course, such a language is only implementable on a machine with a Turing machine halting oracle; I will, therefore, provide an implementation. In Banana Scheme.
15:37:52 <ais523> fizzie: that was pretty close to my proof
15:37:54 <ais523> elliott: go for it
15:37:56 <elliott> ais523: it's theoretically possible on a super-Turing machine; if halts(X) then run(X) else done
15:38:22 <elliott> hey, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Banana_Scheme has a serious error!
15:38:48 <elliott> fixed
15:39:24 <ais523> elliott: I'm not entirely sure that such a language would technically be TC
15:39:42 <oerjan> plot plot plot plot plot plot plot plot banana scheme
15:39:44 <ais523> in fact, by the typical mathematical definition, it definitely wouldn't be
15:39:53 <elliott> ais523: that's why it's trolling!
15:39:56 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:40:15 <elliott> ais523: you can run any Turing-complete-requiring computation you want to; even if it doesn't halt, you can run N steps for arbitrary finite N
15:40:18 <elliott> you just can't loop forever
15:40:26 <oerjan> *-plot
15:40:41 <Sgeo> elliott, my new obsession is Newspeak
15:40:53 <elliott> ais523: ooh, now I want to make it so that you can write a Brainfuck program which halts if you put in "blah" and doesn't if you put in "bluh"
15:41:02 <elliott> ais523: and then make sure my implementation doesn't stop the program until you put in "bluh"
15:41:25 <elliott> hmm, so I have to do (H 0 `(assuming-we-get-the-character ,n)) for all 255 ns
15:41:28 <elliott> at every read
15:41:31 <elliott> or something
15:41:39 <elliott> no, wait, much before every read
15:41:40 <elliott> hmmmm
15:41:44 <elliott> nah, too much of a pain
15:41:47 <elliott> I'll do it dbfi-style
15:42:00 <nooga> how does Newspeak look? samples?
15:42:13 <elliott> nooga: like Smalltalk.
15:42:35 <Sgeo> Except a bit more syntax
15:42:47 <Sgeo> And slightly different conventions
15:42:57 <elliott> nooga: http://newspeaklanguage.org/. just ignore Sgeo, he has never known a language he didn't fall in love with and then reject for really stupid fucking reasons before ever using it
15:44:25 <Phantom_Hoover_> So he did that to Factor and Smalltalk as well?
15:44:32 <Phantom_Hoover_> And Scala, I remember that one as well.
15:45:03 <ais523> hmm, 4 of the last 11 /8s were just allocated
15:45:20 * Sgeo would love to see Slava and Bracha collide
15:45:28 -!- augur has joined.
15:45:36 <ais523> when the next two are assigned, the RIRs get one each, so it's not long before there are no free /8s left
15:45:52 <elliott> 00:01:18 <fizzie> It's just that udev's better. :p
15:46:20 <fizzie> I don't remember the context at all.
15:46:57 <elliott> Nor do I! Let's FIND it!
15:48:16 <fizzie> Better than devfs, it seems.
15:48:36 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah, but people were calling it "2 of the last 9" because 2 of those went to ARIN, which was absolutely *going* to allocate yesterday.
15:48:40 <elliott> You're better than devfs. So there.
15:48:43 <pikhq> It's just RIPE's allocation is a surprise.
15:49:35 <fizzie> Well, you know us Europeans, we like to be surprising.
15:50:15 <pikhq> And APNIC could allocate any time in the next few months, thereby causing IPv4 depletion.
15:52:06 * oerjan swats fizzie -----###
15:52:21 <fizzie> I didn't expect that.
15:52:32 <oerjan> just a bit of friendly european surprise
15:52:52 <fizzie> Nobody expects the Norwegian swatquisition.
15:53:13 <fizzie> "Showing results for sw acquisition. Search instead for swatquisition"
15:57:07 <nooga> that should be a quote
15:58:11 <oklofok> "<ais523> hmm, is it decidable whether two regular expressions (actual regular expressions, without backreferences etc.) match the same set of strings?" <<< yes, obviously
15:58:44 <oklofok> "<ais523> for ordinary regular expressions, you can compile them into state machines" "<ais523> then because there's a finite number of states, you can bruteforce" <<< just be sure it's an algorithm and not a semialgorithm tho
16:00:37 <oklofok> "<elliott> ais523: a Turing-complete-and-no-greater language in which all programs nonetheless halt" <<< enumerate turing machines that halt, the program 1 runs the first one, 2 runs the second one etc
16:01:03 <elliott> oklofok: I'm trolling, remember? It's going to be brainfuck.
16:01:18 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:01:35 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
16:01:42 <Phantom_Hoover_> oklofok, while you're at it, biject to the computable reals.
16:02:37 <Sgeo> The thing that has an interpreter that's just a BF interpreter but those interpreters don't correctly report invalid programs
16:02:40 <Sgeo> ?
16:03:00 <elliott> Sgeo: what
16:03:05 -!- pikhq has joined.
16:03:11 <Sgeo> elliott, your language that you're discussing
16:03:20 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover_> oklofok, while you're at it, biject to the computable reals.
16:03:34 <elliott> difficult, since you'd have to consider programs under the equivalence relation of "same result as"
16:03:48 <elliott> otherwise you'd have countably infinite programs for each computable real
16:03:54 <elliott> Sgeo: no, the interpreter is written in banana scheme.
16:04:21 <Sgeo> ... so will the language count as implemented or unimplemented?
16:04:30 <oklofok> i heard today that if you assume the negation of aoc, you can prove there is a subset of R that doesn't have a countable subset, and i was surprised
16:04:37 <elliott> 18:28:17 <pikhq> Wow. The "NFL International Series". A scheme whereby the NFL plays a regular season game in London.
16:04:37 <elliott> 18:28:37 <pikhq> ... I didn't know American football had any fans at all outside of North America.
16:04:37 <oklofok> is that common knowledge?
16:04:38 <elliott> It doesn't!
16:04:42 <elliott> Sgeo: implemented, just not compuatbly
16:04:46 <elliott> *computably
16:04:50 <elliott> oklofok: i remember hearing that once... from wikipedia :P
16:05:08 <elliott> oklofok: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_of_choice#Statements_consistent_with_the_negation_of_AC
16:05:11 <elliott> oklofok: fun section
16:05:15 -!- augur has joined.
16:05:17 <oklofok> cool
16:05:44 <elliott> # There exists a model of ZF¬C in which real numbers are a countable union of countable sets.[11]
16:05:47 <elliott> that's my favourite one
16:06:09 * Sgeo <baby noise that irritates elliott>
16:06:14 -!- Vorpal has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
16:06:14 <elliott> Sgeo: die.
16:06:37 <oklofok> coolness
16:07:02 <elliott> 19:48:07 <guny> hi watch my music video!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_Q6U2O-qx4
16:07:04 <elliott> this is terrible
16:07:07 <oerjan> pikhq: i think there's even an american football team in Oslo
16:07:19 <oklofok> that was pretty trivial yeah
16:07:28 <Sgeo> She's going over bitwise operators
16:07:44 <Sgeo> She asked the class if anyone's classes delt with bitwise operators. Of course not
16:07:48 <Sgeo> I hate this school
16:08:02 <oklofok> well obviously they are too trivial to teach
16:09:01 <oklofok> a friend of mine used to play american football so it's here too i guess
16:09:02 <elliott> 22:47:34 <adu> Go + Io + Prolog + Haskell
16:09:03 <elliott> 22:47:55 <adu> that would be a cute kid
16:09:04 <elliott> with tentacles
16:09:30 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway_American_Football_Federation
16:09:35 <elliott> 01:47:53 <fizzie> ineiros: "Uh." (Incidentally, I've never heard any of the in-game music.)
16:09:36 <elliott> fizzie: but it's nice!
16:09:44 <elliott> 00:38:36 <ineiros> fizzie: http://open.spotify.com/album/29dWA4uMn07qxfEAGO3wSh
16:09:45 <elliott> lolwat
16:11:57 -!- Vorpal has joined.
16:12:29 <Sgeo> Ooh
16:12:48 <Sgeo> Newspeak comes with late night wisdom
16:13:34 <Sgeo> http://ideone.com/mf4Lm
16:15:14 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, do you actually /program/, or do you just get incessant and short-lived obsessions with languages?
16:15:33 <Sgeo> The latter
16:15:45 <Phantom_Hoover_> I actually think you've written less programs I know of than me.
16:16:02 <Phantom_Hoover_> I have written about 3 programs.
16:16:04 <Phantom_Hoover_> None of them anywhere near complete.
16:16:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: HE WROTE PSOX
16:16:38 <Sgeo> I have a bunch of Python scripts to do random things on my old HD
16:16:53 <elliott> Aww, #exoteric is taken.
16:17:15 <Sgeo> Including scraping a news site's sports section for photos from my home HS
16:17:17 <Sgeo> >.>
16:17:24 <Sgeo> (This was when I was in HS. Don't get ideas)
16:17:28 <elliott> you are crazy.
16:18:41 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, that's a negative program!
16:18:51 <Sgeo> I have a few Haver clients lying around
16:19:10 <elliott> oops haver sucks
16:19:22 <Sgeo> That's not my fault, is it?
16:19:28 <elliott> yes
16:20:42 <elliott> 09:23:05 <ihope> Hmm, what about a language where the dimensions are finite, but the number of them is infinite?
16:20:43 <elliott> 09:23:18 <ihope> You know: a 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x... universe.
16:20:44 <elliott> approve
16:21:00 <elliott> 09:27:27 <SimonRC> And, assuming integral coordinates in each case, is it clear by the diagonal argument that there is more space in that kind of universe than in an infinite univers with a finite number of dimensions
16:21:01 <elliott> :D
16:21:04 <elliott> (obvious, but :D)
16:22:20 <Phantom_Hoover_> A 2^\infty universe is obviously real-indexed.
16:22:42 * Sgeo had a bit of trouble visualizing that diagonalization, but figured it out
16:22:58 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, the Cantor diagonalisation?
16:23:00 <Sgeo> Actually, I may be visualizing it wrong still
16:23:19 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, I know what it looks like for decimals and... I was visualizing it for the 2x2x2x.... wrong
16:23:52 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/ee95j/whats_the_most_internet_famous_thing_youve_done/c17guwl
16:23:53 <Sgeo> I was visualizing 2 rows, and only 0 and 1 were digits in both numbers
16:25:16 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, why do it like that?
16:25:24 <Sgeo> Because I'm tired
16:25:34 <Sgeo> And wasn't thinking properly
16:25:59 <Sgeo> It still holds though
16:26:09 <Phantom_Hoover_> Moreover, the set of programs is logically equivalent to the set of subsets of the reals.
16:26:33 <Sgeo> Only need to swing down to the second number once in fact to make the nonstored num... it occurs to me that that is a bit overkill
16:26:42 <Sgeo> For the situation that I was envisioning
16:27:36 <elliott> 15:12:27 <fizzie> Mathematica is like unto a God:
16:27:36 <elliott> 15:12:28 <fizzie> In[1]:= Sum[1/(2^i), {i, 1, Infinity}]
16:27:36 <elliott> 15:12:28 <fizzie> Out[1]= 1
16:27:36 <elliott> 15:13:12 <SimonRC> yeah, but God got the answer by summing thw whole lot
16:27:36 <elliott> 15:13:37 <SimonRC> F*ck knows how Chuck Norris got his answer.
16:27:37 <elliott> 15:14:03 <fizzie> Who knows how Mathematica did it; might be magic!
16:27:39 <elliott> fizzie wolfram
16:28:34 <Phantom_Hoover_> Hmm, ihope's suggestion is intriguing.
16:29:05 <Phantom_Hoover_> For instance, are the accessible cells restricted to those indexed by a CR?
16:30:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: No.
16:30:49 <elliott> Not that I know of.
16:30:55 <Sgeo> http://ideone.com/to8J2
16:31:22 <elliott> 16:11:02 * SimonRC has worked out the definitive difference between scripting languages and "real" programming languages: in scripting languages, a simple string can be like 'foo' or "foo", but "real" languages only accept one of these (usually the former).
16:31:22 <elliott> 16:11:30 <lament> usually the altter
16:31:22 <elliott> 16:11:32 <lament> latter
16:31:22 <elliott> 16:11:43 <SimonRC> erm, *latter
16:31:22 <elliott> 16:11:50 <SimonRC> yeah, thanks
16:31:25 <elliott> 16:11:54 <kipple> bah, real languages doesn't have strings...
16:31:28 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, so it's unimplementable?
16:31:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: It's not a language.
16:32:06 <Phantom_Hoover_> <elliott> 09:23:05 <ihope> Hmm, what about a language where the dimensions are finite, but the number of them is infinite?
16:32:19 <elliott> Oh.
16:32:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Why not ask him?
16:32:51 <Phantom_Hoover_> When was he last seen?
16:33:30 <oerjan> he's on freenode as tswett
16:34:20 <oerjan> doesn't come here much
16:34:33 <Phantom_Hoover_> But not at the moment, and not that I can remember recently.
16:35:01 <oerjan> ...he's on the network now, says whois
16:35:11 <oerjan> he just doesn't come to this channel
16:35:34 <elliott> Gregor: OH MY GOD I HATE GHEXTRIS
16:36:14 <Vorpal> hum. I wonder what made my computer crash the moment I plugged in my mouse.
16:36:36 <Vorpal> works perfectly now, worked perfectly in my laptop today
16:37:00 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, what's GHEXTRIS?
16:37:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: sudo aptitude install ghextris
16:37:13 <Sgeo> "It's 3:00:00 am. Go get some rest!"
16:37:17 -!- perdito has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:37:25 <ais523> Vorpal: brownout, I wonder? it could be there's an intermittent short circuit in the mouse and it browned out your computer when you plugged it in
16:37:32 <Sgeo> ^^What Newspeak's IDE will tell you at the bottom if it's open at that time
16:38:13 <ais523> elliott: hmm, tetris on a hex grid?
16:38:32 <elliott> ais523: yes. and oh dear god it is impossible
16:38:59 * oerjan recalls playing hextris back in the day
16:39:07 <elliott> HEXAGONAL GEOMETRY MAKES NO SENSE
16:40:50 <Sgeo> She's now teaching the class hexadecimal
16:41:15 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, ...you didn't already know that?
16:41:19 <Phantom_Hoover_> AT TWENTY-ONE.
16:41:27 <Phantom_Hoover_> ("You" in the plural form)
16:45:07 <elliott> 23:19:08 * _wildhalcyon_ blames linux for Kevin Federline's career.
16:49:14 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover_: being taught hex doesn't mean you don't know it already
16:49:20 <ais523> just that someone wanted to teach it to you
16:49:29 <ais523> there are some subjects I ended up learning over and over again
16:49:48 <ais523> boolean algebra is one I remember, I was taught it at least twice and new it already before then
16:49:52 <ais523> *knew it already
16:49:52 <elliott> *knew
16:49:54 <elliott> :D
16:50:00 <elliott> hmm... I want to revive ESO OS, now
16:50:04 <elliott> after reading this log
16:50:23 <elliott> I will feel accomplished if I can get enough of an interpreter into a bootsector that there's enough space left to write the actual bootloader in the esolang
16:50:25 <ais523> I pretty much type by sound, for some reason, rather than by spelling
16:50:33 <ais523> so I often have to go back and correct a word into one of its homophones
16:50:37 <elliott> ais523: hooked on phonics eh
16:50:56 <ais523> elliott: some interps would fit into a bootsector just fine
16:51:02 <ais523> MiniMAX, for instance, or many other OISCs
16:51:23 <elliott> 23:36:47 <fizzie> (Of course there's _always_ a workaround: perhaps adding an evil library (to mangle the stdout in an __attribute__((constructor)) routine) to LD_PRELOAD might work, if stdout exists already when those are called.)
16:51:24 <elliott> aiee
16:51:38 <elliott> ais523: yes, but you need to have enough space left in the boot sector to put the bootloader program in, written in the esolang
16:51:47 <elliott> ais523: can MiniMAX programs do "int 10h"?
16:52:10 <Sgeo> I should google that, so I will
16:52:21 <ais523> elliott: I wrote a couple of extensions for that
16:52:36 <elliott> ais523: are they on the wiki?
16:52:45 <ais523> there was a 32-byte interp that could not only do arbitrary DOS system calls, but also return values from them to a jump table
16:52:51 <ais523> but I never ran it and am not entirely sure if it works
16:52:53 <elliott> also, I hereby proclaim the OS to be the ESO OS, edition E
16:53:01 <elliott> wait, that isn't quite a palindrome
16:53:05 * Sgeo videos elliott
16:53:11 <elliott> also, I hereby proclaim the OS to be the ESOS (ESO OS), edition E
16:53:12 <elliott> ESOSE
16:53:31 <Vorpal> <ais523> Vorpal: brownout, I wonder? it could be there's an intermittent short circuit in the mouse and it browned out your computer when you plugged it in <-- maybe
16:53:42 <Vorpal> ais523, how could I check this?
16:53:50 <oerjan> OS ed. ESO
16:53:59 <elliott> ais523: hmm... the problem is, I don't even fail vaguely like writing a minimax program :)
16:54:05 <ais523> elliott: I haven't put the extensions on the wiki, mostly because I'm not sure whether they work, and can no longer remember how they work
16:54:16 <elliott> ais523: maybe I'll base it on Underload
16:54:16 <ais523> Vorpal: intermittent shorts aren't at all easy to check
16:54:26 <elliott> somehow, extending Underload seems less awful than extending brainfuck
16:54:26 <ais523> and some methods of checking for them have a tendency to set things on fire
16:54:31 <elliott> although I'm not sure how I'd do mutating a register
16:54:40 <Vorpal> ais523, I wouldn't want that
16:54:43 <ais523> indeed
16:54:46 <Sgeo> She's now talking about swapping variables with tempoary variables
16:54:49 <Sgeo> This is Perl...
16:54:50 <ais523> it's what happened to my shorting power supply, though
16:54:57 <elliott> Sgeo: ($a, $b) = ($b, $a)
16:55:01 <ais523> Sgeo: ($a, $b) = ($b, $a)
16:55:06 <ais523> elliott: how did you type that so quickly?
16:55:09 <elliott> ais523: *hi5*
16:55:12 <ais523> also, we both missed the semicolon
16:55:14 <elliott> ais523: because I type really quickly
16:55:19 <ais523> indeed
16:55:21 <elliott> also, don't need it if it's in {} :)
16:55:23 <Sgeo> Her response: "It depends on the language"
16:55:24 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway it could be the computer. I very rarely hotplug anything except the mouse to my desktop
16:55:29 <Sgeo> Which is correct, obviously
16:55:31 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, is there any nice way to handle reals in Coq?
16:55:36 <ais523> Vorpal: I take it this is a USB mouse?
16:55:41 <Vorpal> ais523, of course
16:55:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: The non-computable reals?
16:55:50 <ais523> PS/2 mice aren't hotpluggable, and have been known to break motherboards when people try
16:55:56 <ais523> but that's a rather old technology
16:56:03 <ais523> by now
16:56:10 <Vorpal> ais523, I'm aware. Which is why I would never hotplug this keyboard
16:56:13 <Vorpal> (which is PS/2)
16:56:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: For any constructivist Coq work, including the computable reals, use http://c-corn.cs.ru.nl/.
16:56:18 <ais523> (serial mice are hotpluggable, but you have to be someone like me to ever have used one)
16:56:28 * oerjan read that as the hotpluggable reals
16:56:29 <Vorpal> ais523, I have *heard* of them that is all
16:56:38 <ais523> I own one
16:56:43 <Vorpal> hah
16:56:43 <ais523> haven't used it in a while, though
16:56:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: I *think* the Reals section in http://coq.inria.fr/stdlib/ is non-constructive, by using axioms instead of constructions.
16:56:56 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway this mouse is technically serial when you expand the abbrev. USB
16:56:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: But C-CoRN is awesome.
16:57:03 <ais523> actually, I think I technically own three, but only one works nowadays
16:57:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Russell O'Connor runs it.
16:57:17 <elliott> ais523: any suggestions to someone feeling like extending underload? apart from "don't"?
16:57:31 <ais523> elliott: remove the S statement and replace it with something more appropriate
16:57:39 <ais523> then you can compile it without having to keep the source around as well
16:57:43 <elliott> ais523: i wasn't planning to support S anyway
16:57:47 <ais523> Underload's actually pretty extensible
16:58:04 <ais523> hmm, now I'm wondering what an Underload interp in Forth would look like
16:58:09 <elliott> ais523: I was thinking about adding a command % which takes one value off the stack and "interpcalls" it
16:58:10 <Vorpal> so some other way of output? Or just having the final program state as output?
16:58:17 <elliott> Vorpal: no output
16:58:22 <ais523> I was just wondering how to do a minimal Underload interp, and what I thought up was very like the way Forth works
16:58:23 <elliott> ais523: the value would be expected to be an underload church numeral
16:58:30 <Vorpal> elliott, hm okay
16:58:50 <elliott> ais523: so e.g. (::**)% would be "syscall 3", and the remaining things on the stack could be arguments
16:58:50 <ais523> elliott: church numerals aren't massively space-efficient
16:58:59 <elliott> ais523: well, no, and this is also a rather boring extension
16:59:01 <Vorpal> elliott, ah so a system call like mechanism?
16:59:05 <elliott> Vorpal: yes
16:59:09 <ais523> more or less the best you could do would be along the lines of (:*:*:*:*:*)% for a high-numbered syscall
16:59:17 <elliott> ais523: I just want to be able to read a floppy using the BIOS in an extended esolang :)
16:59:27 <elliott> that I can write an interpreter/compiler for short enough to fit in a bootsector with enough space left to have the program there
16:59:30 <Vorpal> no more efficient representation of numbers in underlambda?
16:59:32 <Vorpal> err
16:59:35 <Vorpal> underload
16:59:37 <Vorpal> I'm tired
16:59:41 <ais523> Vorpal: they both represent numbers the same way
16:59:45 <Vorpal> yeah
17:00:02 <ais523> and in underlambda, at least, where you don't have S to worry out, I'm assuming that most decent interps will recognise numbers and optimise them internally
17:00:04 <Sgeo> unload
17:00:08 <ais523> *worry about
17:00:19 <Vorpal> ais523, but can there not be any general number representation that is more space efficient in underload?
17:00:23 <Sgeo> Wait, there's really an underlambda?
17:00:38 <ais523> you can't recognise /all/ numbers as that's an uncomputable issue, but you can identify most common ways to construct them
17:00:38 <Vorpal> with general I mean "not special cased to a finite range"
17:00:44 <ais523> Sgeo: yes, it's semi-vaporware
17:01:00 <Sgeo> http://eurekamag.com/keyword/u/026/underlambda.php
17:01:21 <ais523> Sgeo: hmm, I somehow doubt that's the meaning I use the word for
17:01:23 * ais523 checks the link
17:01:32 <elliott> To differentiate their respective functions, oligonucleotide-directed site-specific mutagenesis was used to change the ATG start codon of the.vphi.X174 A* gene, previously cloned into pCQV2 under.lambda. Repressor control, into a TAG stop codon. The altered A* gene was then inserted back into.vphi.X replicative form DNA to produce an amber mutant,.vphi.XamA*. Two different Escherichia coli amber suppressor strains infected with this mutant produc
17:01:32 <elliott> ed viable progeny phage with only a slight reduction in yield. In Su+ cells infected with.vphi.XamA*,.vphi.X gene A protein, altered at one amino acid, was synthesized at normal levels; A* protein was not detectable. Prophage integration occurs at different chromosomal sites, including lacY and malB, but not at attB All.lambda.cam112 prophages are excised from the chromosome after induction but with various efficiencies for different locations. H
17:01:33 <elliott> eteroduplex analysis of.lambda.placZ transducing phages isolated from a lacY::.lambda.cam112 prophage reveals an insertion sequence 1 element at the joint of viral and chromosomal DNA Two lines of evidence indicate that.lambda
17:01:37 <elliott> lolspam
17:01:56 <Vorpal> ais523, hm what about compression? On very large church numerals you could presumably apply a compression algorithm to get a smaller one. (The usual caveats of compression applying here of course. You will get larger values sometimes)
17:01:58 <ais523> the word doesn't appear anywhere there but the title
17:02:19 <Sgeo> ais523, under.lambda
17:02:22 <ais523> Vorpal: :*:*:*:*-style compression isn't /that/ bad, really, it's O(log n)
17:02:34 <oerjan> Vorpal: you could obviously convert a church numeral to some binary representation
17:02:48 <Phantom_Hoover_> ais523, Underlambda was the proof-by-isomorphism language, wasn't it?
17:02:56 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover_: yep
17:03:31 -!- tswett has joined.
17:03:37 <elliott> Uh oh, what did Phantom_Hoover_ do.
17:03:43 <elliott> (Or maybe tswett reads logs compulsively.)
17:04:00 <tswett> I receive an SMS every time someone says something in this channel.
17:04:02 * Phantom_Hoover_ whistles innocently.
17:04:06 <Vorpal> <oerjan> Vorpal: you could obviously convert a church numeral to some binary representation <-- well yes
17:04:14 <tswett> They cost me 25 cents apiece, so you'd better not say anything unless it's important.
17:04:20 <Vorpal> oerjan, but I meant in underload as the source is written
17:04:21 <oerjan> tswett: O KAY
17:04:30 <ais523> tswett: that is probably a bad idea
17:04:59 <elliott> i think ais523 has a broken joke lobe
17:05:03 <Vorpal> <elliott> Uh oh, what did Phantom_Hoover_ do. <elliott> (Or maybe tswett reads logs compulsively.) <-- there is some context missing here?
17:05:13 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, it's called read your damn scrollback :)
17:05:30 <Vorpal> elliott, my scrollback goes back to when I joined after the crash half an hour ago
17:05:38 <ais523> elliott: my typical reaction to identifying jokes is to act like they're serious and try to drive the conversation into the absurd
17:05:47 <ais523> unfortunately, this means I act much the same way whether I miss a joke or not
17:05:49 <elliott> ais523: you could do it more interestingly :)
17:06:03 <oerjan> Vorpal: well that :*:*:* style _is_ essentially binary, adding :* multiplies a number by 2
17:06:10 <Vorpal> ais523, hm I actually do the same sometimes.
17:06:16 <elliott> tswett: you're lucky, this is the first time we've talked about esolangs in months
17:06:16 <Vorpal> it is fun
17:06:27 <Vorpal> oerjan, hm okay
17:06:37 <elliott> 23:49:05 <GregorR> I love how devfs survived for like a year :-P
17:06:37 <elliott> 23:49:34 <calamari> yeah, what was wrong with it? worked for me
17:06:37 <elliott> 23:50:04 <GregorR> I really don't know.
17:06:37 <elliott> 23:50:08 <GregorR> Always worked great for me.
17:06:39 <elliott> It's not object XML enough.
17:06:44 <ais523> oerjan: that's what I was thinking; it has *2 and +1 operations
17:06:46 <elliott> (Is devfs in the newest kernels?)
17:06:50 <elliott> Ugh, no, it isn't.
17:06:52 <ais523> so it's a sort of generalised binary that allows arbitrary digits
17:06:57 <elliott> Removed in 2.6.13; glorious ...
17:06:57 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't think udev uses XML?
17:07:04 <elliott> Vorpal: No, but it might as well. :)
17:07:06 <oerjan> oh and adding 1 is putting : and * _around_ the number, isn't it?
17:07:28 <Vorpal> elliott, no xml would be worse
17:07:49 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm saying that it's so overcomplex that making it use XML would hardly change a thing.
17:07:49 <Sgeo> She wants us to install MySQL Query Browser
17:07:58 <elliott> Maybe I will see if devfs works on current kernels.
17:08:07 <elliott> Or just use static /dev like I was planning to.
17:08:15 <Vorpal> elliott, there is that other one there was some talk about. Don't remember details
17:08:32 <elliott> I wonder if devtmpfs can work without udev.
17:08:58 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, why do you want to move stuff into a monolithic kernel?
17:09:15 <elliott> Vorpal: udev would be no better if it was in the kernel
17:09:28 <elliott> have you seen /etc/udev?
17:09:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I have
17:09:41 <Vorpal> elliott, it is overcomplicated yes to some degree.
17:09:43 <elliott> yeah. when was the last time you were using devfs and thought --
17:09:48 <elliott> "I wish I could rename my hard drive device file."
17:10:04 <Vorpal> elliott, but then I doubt devfs allowed you to run a script that loaded joystick calibration values when it was connected
17:10:10 <elliott> I'm all for flexibility, it's just that when you add too much flexibility and try and modularise *Unix*, everything fucks up.
17:10:20 <Vorpal> elliott, fair point
17:10:31 <elliott> See Hurd for the extreme of this.
17:10:37 <Vorpal> indeed
17:11:05 <elliott> http://lwn.net/Articles/330985/ Yay -- devtmpfs looks like a proper devfs.
17:11:10 <elliott> "/dev will be fully populated and dynamic, and always reflect the current
17:11:10 <elliott> device state of the kernel."
17:11:22 <elliott> And apparently it makes init=/bin/sh work perfectly.
17:11:32 <Phantom_Hoover_> THINGS THAT ANNOY ME: people who equate "real" with "floating point".
17:11:42 <Phantom_Hoover_> See: Fortran, Pascal.
17:12:09 <Vorpal> elliott, hm that is nice
17:13:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, things that annoy me: people who seem to take fortran or pascal seriously today.
17:13:16 <Vorpal> ;P
17:13:40 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, it's a symptom of a greater evil!
17:13:42 <fizzie> "Removed /home (sorry!)" -- now that's interesting.
17:13:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, what?
17:13:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, from where?
17:13:58 <Phantom_Hoover_> That of putting a stupid amount of store with floating point!
17:13:59 <fizzie> That's what it says on the latest blog post.
17:14:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, blog post of?
17:14:07 <elliott> fizzie: Blog post of?
17:14:09 <fizzie> http://notch.tumblr.com/
17:14:10 <Vorpal> elliott, echo
17:14:14 <elliott> Oh god.
17:14:20 <elliott> I refuse to update.
17:14:25 <Vorpal> what? it removed /home?
17:14:26 <Vorpal> where?
17:14:27 <elliott> Yes.
17:14:30 <elliott> Newest update.
17:14:36 <elliott> Back up .minecraft now, y'allz.
17:14:47 <elliott> $ cp -R .minecraft .minecraft_has_home_for_fucks_sake
17:14:58 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:14:59 <elliott> Let's see if it's going to force me to upgrade!
17:15:00 <Vorpal> oh not /home on the fs
17:15:03 <fizzie> It might be a server-side change, though. I don't quite know how commands work.
17:15:18 <elliott> HAHAHAHA FORCED UPGRADE
17:15:25 <elliott> FUCK YOU NOTCH
17:15:27 <Vorpal> why would it remove /home
17:15:32 <elliott> because notch sucks
17:15:39 <Vorpal> elliott, also it says server upgrade is not mandatory
17:15:43 <Vorpal> bbl food
17:15:55 <fizzie> Yes, but also that there is a "rather bad memory leak bug in the server".
17:16:10 <elliott> ineiros: Instead of updating, why not try restarting the server every now and then?
17:16:13 <elliott> Oh, look, I died before quitting.
17:16:15 <Phantom_Hoover_> What does rm -rf / actually do?
17:16:23 <Phantom_Hoover_> Remove the inode for /?
17:19:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Recursively remove everything in /, duh.
17:19:19 <elliott> Or refuse to, if it's GNU rm.
17:19:27 <elliott> fizzie: http://imgur.com/gseyK.png http://imgur.com/ZZWCa.png http://imgur.com/xqBXT.png
17:19:30 <elliott> fizzie: Stop that, it's silley.
17:20:03 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, what happens after it finishes?
17:20:06 <fizzie> A daily stone-bath does wonders for your textures.
17:20:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Um, bad things.
17:22:47 <elliott> fizzie: http://imgur.com/tzQ07.png http://imgur.com/1wqWD.png
17:23:18 <fizzie> Are my feet sticking out through the bridge?
17:23:22 <elliott> fizzie: Yes.
17:25:07 <oklofok> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Banana_Scheme <<< erm, so, what's banana scheme?
17:25:45 <oklofok> "hey i invented a new language called X, the language called Y is defined as follows"
17:26:00 <elliott> oklofok: they are the Banana Schemes, collectively
17:26:04 <elliott> it's terminology from some irc log, see talk page
17:26:06 <oklofok> okay
17:26:30 <Slereah> TIME TRAVEL
17:31:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: You breakin'?
17:32:02 <Phantom_Hoover_> Breakin' what?
17:32:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Minecrafty.
17:32:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Have you been putting those extra steps on the skyway?
17:32:57 <Phantom_Hoover_> I think I need a break. Also, this torrent is doing awful things to my connection.
17:33:02 <Phantom_Hoover_> And that was Vorpal.
17:33:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Has he realised that you need three, not one?
17:33:13 <elliott> Also that it's ugly?
17:33:44 <Phantom_Hoover_> Three what's?
17:33:47 <elliott> Steps.
17:33:52 <elliott> To make a barrier.
17:35:12 <oerjan> http://politics.usnews.com/usnews/php/galleries/image.php/162/46/46.jpg
17:35:13 <fizzie> I did some of the widening too.
17:35:35 <elliott> oerjan: that was /almost/ funny
17:35:42 <fizzie> Anyway, it's already easier to walk like that, I don't really see why you'd need an actual barrier around.
17:37:42 <Phantom_Hoover_> *whats
17:38:01 <elliott> fizzie: Nobody ever told me you could ascend water without drowning!
17:38:24 <fizzie> Well, you can.
17:38:31 <fizzie> There, now you've been told.
17:38:44 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover_> And that was Vorpal.
17:38:46 <Vorpal> uh
17:38:51 <Vorpal> fizze
17:39:07 <elliott> "My home is like a 20 minute walk from spawn!!!!!!!!" "Isn't that what portals help you with." yeah cuz portals work in MP
17:40:02 <elliott> Hey.
17:40:03 <elliott> I just realised.
17:40:07 <elliott> Getting stuck in stone is now unfixable.
17:40:13 <elliott> You are stuck there. Forever. Until the server /tps you out.
17:40:32 <elliott> "You guys are missing the point. /home was not a feature implemented by Notch. Therefor he doesn't want it implemented. Like bureau.nic says, Perhaps it causes a huge bug in the code. Either way, notch has been coding and developing for a VERY long time. If he removes a feature that he knows people love (obvious he does or he wouldn't have said sorry) I'm sure he knows best and has a damn good reason for it. It IS his code game after all. So, why
17:40:32 <elliott> don't you sit down like a good alpha tester, and play the game like it's meant to be played."
17:40:34 <fizzie> Mostly you're supposed to suffocate, but I guess you still could easily get stuck.
17:40:40 <elliott> ...
17:40:43 <elliott> "Notch KNOWS BEST"
17:40:56 <elliott> fizzie: He added code to suffocate rather than fixing the bug? Srsly?
17:41:06 <elliott> Also, you have to lose your inventory because of a bug? Niice.
17:41:28 <fizzie> No, I think you've always supposed to have been suffocated if you ended up inside a non-air block somehow.
17:41:33 <elliott> Also, what's all these comments talking about /spawn? Our server seems not to have that.
17:41:47 <elliott> "the key is to not get stuck in a mine. thats the point of the game."
17:41:50 <elliott> Well, thanks for that!
17:42:57 <fizzie> I like the "play the game like it's meant to be played" comment. I suppose same sort of reasoning could be used to logicalize why any sort of unauthorized modding is ethically worng.
17:43:25 <elliott> "How could a player teleportation command cause bugs or issues? If it did, why weren't the others removed?"
17:43:28 <elliott> "idk ibm. Are you a programmer? Maybe learn a bit about that before you ask ignorant questions."
17:43:32 <elliott> As a programmer, #2 is full of shit.
17:43:57 <elliott> fizzie: why is everyone acting like /spawn does something, it doesn't for me
17:44:14 <fizzie> I don't really know, I've been wondering about spawn-point-setting too.
17:44:35 <fizzie> Oh, incidentally.
17:44:44 <fizzie> It seems that hMod already has a "enable-health" server option.
17:44:59 -!- nopseudoidea has joined.
17:45:32 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, but does disabling it work?
17:45:37 <elliott> If so: ineiros: HMOD LOL
17:45:41 <fizzie> Well, according to some comments, yes.
17:45:45 <fizzie> I don't really know.
17:46:10 <elliott> fizzie: Now tell me what the heck /spawn is meant to do >_<
17:46:12 <elliott> It does nothing!
17:47:16 <fizzie> http://wiki.hey0.net/index.php/Commands#.2Fspawn maybe?
17:47:20 <fizzie> (That's the hMod command list.)
17:47:24 <elliott> "We are not implementing anything crazy here like devfs did, including the later versions - there is no modprobe behind your back, no lookup hooks, no stupid new naming scheme, no new filesystem type to register."
17:47:44 <elliott> fizzie: Nice... so people are saying "just use /spawn!" when mods are meant to be BADHORRIBLE according to Notch.
17:47:53 <elliott> hMod does seem rather nice.
17:48:03 <elliott> Hey, it has support for "kits".
17:48:04 <fizzie> On "paper", anyway.
17:48:06 <elliott> /kit diamondtools
17:48:16 <elliott> Cool, you can set your own /home.
17:48:21 <elliott> ineiros: Totally requestin' hMod
17:49:02 <elliott> "Sievers outlines the differences between devtmpfs and Adam Richter's proposal from 2003. It mostly boils down to complexity; devtmpfs is a much simpler scheme, which really adds very little to the kernel. The implementation is around 300 lines of code, in comparison to roughly 3600 for devfs and 600 for an early version of Richter's mini-devfs."
17:49:03 <Phantom_Hoover_> Wait WHAT
17:49:08 <Phantom_Hoover_> Notch removed /home?
17:49:13 <Phantom_Hoover_> Bastard!
17:49:36 <fizzie> So the patch notes say; we haven't actually tried out the new server version yet.
17:49:54 <elliott> And we're not going to! Well, not without hMod yet. On pain of ineiros being murdered.
17:50:16 <elliott> fizzie: Also, I love the idea that there can be a "proper" way to play a sandbox game.
17:51:30 <Vorpal> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Has he realised that you need three, not one? <-- first it was fizzie who made it like that. Second 3 is wide enough to walk on without barrier with minimal risk of falling off
17:52:38 <Phantom_Hoover_> fizzie, link??
17:52:49 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover_: http://notch.tumblr.com/
17:52:54 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover_: Shouldn't you know that address already?
17:54:33 <Vorpal> <elliott> fizzie: Nice... so people are saying "just use /spawn!" when mods are meant to be BADHORRIBLE according to Notch.
17:54:34 <Vorpal> uh
17:54:41 <Vorpal> that only applies to client mods iirc
17:54:54 <elliott> I doubt he approves of deobfuscating, modifying, reobfuscating and then distributing the server code.
17:55:01 <Vorpal> from what I remember he said that since you don't need to pay for server anyway he minds much less for server mods
17:55:29 <elliott> "Forge seems to be working in SMP now, aside from the animation. Also, is health supposed to regenerate? If so, is there a setting?"
17:55:30 <elliott> "turning off monsters currently sets the server to peaceful mode. It will be an option."
17:55:32 <Vorpal> elliott, iirc he said that quite a bit of the code is shared between client and server (which seems sensible)
17:55:36 <elliott> How about making it an option before breaking it...
17:55:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, but he's still too stupid to make singleplayer = connect to local server.
17:56:08 <elliott> fizzie: @notch Why did you remove the /home command? Bugs?
17:56:09 <elliott> @PHLAK it's not supposed to be there!
17:56:11 <elliott> tl;dr it's not coming back
17:56:19 <Vorpal> elliott, I wouldn't be able to play single player then since then it would be far above the memory available on here
17:56:23 <fizzie> Pretty impressive if two lines is tl;dr.
17:56:32 <elliott> fizzie: Indeed.
17:56:42 <elliott> Vorpal: That's just because the server code sucks.
17:56:59 <Vorpal> elliott, possibly. Go implement your own one?
17:57:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Others already are.
17:57:13 <elliott> Anyway I don't feel like figuring out the protocol.
17:57:16 <elliott> It's probably braindead.
17:57:21 <Vorpal> I mean, complaining here doesn't really give any result :P
17:57:35 <Phantom_Hoover_> The damn comment page won't load for me...
17:57:49 <fizzie> It's not just figuring it out, it seems to be a moving target.
17:57:55 <elliott> LOL: http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/12/01/the-minecraft-experiment-day-7-when-you-are-engulfed-in-flames/
17:58:02 <elliott> Hilarious.
17:58:27 <fizzie> "/home was basically a way to get yourself out of impossible places, but now that you can kill yourself more easily, it's purpose has been fulfilled. Maybe he'll bring it back in another way."
17:58:38 <fizzie> (From the comments.)
17:58:52 <elliott> fizzie: Yeah, but he clearly won't since it seems it wasn't "meant" to be in there.
17:58:55 <elliott> Maybe he only noticed now.
17:59:12 <elliott> "I ignored the game entirely when it was a purely creative toy – yeah, yeah, people made amazing stuff. I’m amazed. I’ve been amazed so often now that I’m in a permanent state of maze, and it would take someone building a working time machine in Zuma Deluxe to un- and subsequently re-maze me. But when it added a health bar, suddenly I was interested. I can die? I love to die! I’m there."
17:59:41 <ais523> elliott: I think the idea is that it's basically doing an end-run around the "difficulty" of the game
17:59:51 <ais523> imagine adding a /home command to a typical roguelike
17:59:54 <ais523> instant escape item!
18:00:10 <Phantom_Hoover_> That guy's Galactic Civilisation II playthroughs have to be seen to be believed.
18:00:17 <Vorpal> ais523, indeed
18:00:22 <elliott> ais523: yes, but we don't play it as survival
18:00:24 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Abandonando).
18:00:26 <elliott> apart from maybe Vorpal but nobody cares about him
18:00:37 <elliott> ais523: we're essentially playing it as creative, but with minecarts and circuits and all that fun modern stuff
18:00:46 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't really either indeed
18:00:51 <fizzie> elliott: You're playing it wrong!
18:00:56 <elliott> ais523: which worked, right up until notch decided that making it into survival like it's meant to be without even adding switches to turn it back into peaceful was a good idea
18:01:00 <elliott> ais523: which is, of course, rather insulting.
18:01:00 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, well, Creative mode will be implemented for the current version at /some/ point.
18:01:10 <elliott> ais523: (it would not be as bad if updates weren't automatic and involuntary, and you couldn't connect to old servers)
18:01:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Yeah... at /some/ point. Just like adventure mode.
18:01:22 <elliott> /home isn't coming back though.
18:01:30 <elliott> And /home is damn useful if you're not playing to survive and just want to explore and create.
18:01:34 <Vorpal> elliott, we can survive without /home
18:01:42 <elliott> Vorpal: I can survive without Minecraft too.
18:01:46 <elliott> It's not can, it's want.
18:01:51 <Vorpal> indeed
18:02:02 <elliott> hMod seems nice anyway.
18:02:07 <elliott> It has those kits, which are like automated multi-/gives.
18:02:18 <elliott> And you can set a personal home that you can teleport to.
18:02:20 <elliott> As well as spawn point.
18:02:32 <elliott> And ops can set arbitrary predefined teleportation points.
18:02:38 <elliott> And you can disable health. :p
18:02:53 <Vorpal> seems nice yes
18:03:07 <Vorpal> wait, connection refused?
18:03:18 <Vorpal> It said on the blog it was an optional server upgrade
18:03:47 <fizzie> Maybe it crashed because of all the memory leaks. :p
18:03:55 <elliott> It's been down for a lil' while.
18:03:57 <elliott> It was up earlier though.
18:04:09 <Vorpal> hm
18:04:20 <fizzie> Doesn't seem that hMod has yet been updated to 0.2.7, but it's probably just a matter of (short) time.
18:04:37 <Vorpal> the remember server bit fails
18:04:42 <elliott> And you can write plugins for it!
18:04:43 <elliott> Endless fun!
18:04:45 <Vorpal> since it doesn't remember port number
18:04:46 <fizzie> Yes, it drops the port number.
18:04:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, it doesn't in the config
18:04:56 <elliott> ineiros can finally have his /donateacreeperto.
18:05:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Protip:
18:05:04 <elliott> Put the server in, click cancel.
18:05:07 <elliott> It will remember the port forevermore.
18:05:11 <elliott> At least it did for me...
18:05:16 <Vorpal> elliott, no it won't after restarting the client
18:05:23 <elliott> What, Minecraft just updated again I think. (Did it?)
18:05:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh.
18:05:29 <Vorpal> the config is: key:<value> which means key:value:port
18:05:37 <Vorpal> which I guess is why it fails to parse it properly
18:05:37 <elliott> ...fail.
18:05:40 <Vorpal> it writes the right thing
18:05:53 <ineiros> Hmm?
18:06:06 <Vorpal> elliott, it is a sane config format. But with xml it wouldn't have failed :P
18:06:16 <elliott> "When dawn finally does break, I climb out of my awkward hole and look around. There’s something different about this mountain today. I don’t know if it’s the grass, the earth, the rocks, the walking pillars of flame – hm, were there walking pillars of flame yesterday?"
18:06:16 <Vorpal> ineiros, connection failure to your server
18:06:32 <Vorpal> ineiros, it simply times out
18:07:05 <elliott> ineiros: Hi. Please install hMod at your earliest convenience. Not only can we set a "home" point to teleport to as well as teleporting to spawn point -- the newest server update just removed /home -- but you can create "kits" like diamondtools that people can award themselves willynilly; you can also disable health.
18:07:09 <ineiros> Ah, apparently not a voluntary update, this.
18:07:10 <ineiros> 2010-12-01 19:52:39 [SEVERE] Unexpected exception
18:07:12 <elliott> ineiros: Oh, and you can set arbitrary named spawn points as an op.
18:07:14 <elliott> It is voluntary.
18:07:17 <elliott> But the old server has a memory leak.
18:07:21 <elliott> I think you ran out of memory.
18:07:24 <elliott> ineiros: Anyway, see above :P
18:07:32 <Vorpal> elliott, what was the name of that blog again?
18:07:34 <elliott> hMod doesn't run on the newest server yet, but "only a matter of time".
18:07:43 <elliott> Vorpal: towardsdawns.blogspot.com; but I'm not quoting from that.
18:07:51 <Vorpal> elliott, oh where was it from then?
18:08:05 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/11/20/the-minecraft-experiment-day-1-chasing-waterfalls/
18:08:05 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, it's Tom Francis' playthrough.
18:08:09 <elliott> Vorpal: In which he deletes his world whenever he dies.
18:08:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Hilarious.
18:08:11 <Phantom_Hoover_> Well, account of playing.
18:08:36 <Phantom_Hoover_> Also worth reading: both his Galactic Civilisations II playthroughs.
18:08:44 <Phantom_Hoover_> Even *more* hilarious, and epic.
18:09:12 <elliott> "In landscape gardening – bear with me here – this is called a ha-ha. A drop that acts like a wall in one direction, but is almost invisible to the fops and dandies sipping tea on their manicured lawn above. I mention this in part to explain why I thought it would be a good idea to stand on top of it, laughing at the creatures and punching them in the face."
18:09:14 <elliott> (They're creepers.)
18:09:34 <Vorpal> elliott, ah
18:09:34 <elliott> http://media.pcgamer.com/files/2010/11/Minecraft-Diary-Creeper-Tail-Closest.jpg AAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
18:10:28 <elliott> "I know this seems slow to you, but I’m pretty sure it took the human race longer than this to invent tools, and I’m probably going to discover fire before teatime."
18:10:44 <Phantom_Hoover_> http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=161570&site=pcg
18:11:00 <Phantom_Hoover_> [[ I couldn't do it. The Spectres bow to no-one, plea for no quarter. Engraved on the seal at the base of a mile-high statue of their leader, Paul Davies Mutilator of Worldsblood, are the words "Bring it the fuck on." In Latin.]]
18:11:02 <fizzie> elliott: The "Painterly" texpack's default moon has three crater-looking creeper faces on it.
18:11:10 <elliott> fizzie: ;_;
18:11:27 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, mossy cobblestones have creeper larvae on them.
18:11:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT
18:11:52 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, read the GCII playthroughs!
18:11:57 <elliott> No this is better.
18:12:08 <elliott> "At some point my staircase hits an earthy patch, and I can hear running water. An underground river! The best thing possible!"
18:12:11 <Phantom_Hoover_> Read that, then those!
18:12:47 <elliott> "It turns out I already have metal, about 16 blocks of it – it’s those lumps of Caramac I’ve been finding in the stone. I thought it might be, but I couldn’t figure out a way to turn them into something I can craft with."
18:12:52 <elliott> Interesting way to describe Caramac.
18:13:34 <elliott> "As soon as I do, I strike legs. A rich vein of purest legs. I wasn’t mining for legs, I am not trained in leg extraction, but legs I have found. In quantity."
18:13:55 <Vorpal> elliott, "legs"?
18:14:13 <elliott> Vorpal: RTFLog :P
18:14:18 <elliott> (Zombies)
18:14:22 <Vorpal> elliott, oh
18:14:29 <Vorpal> ineiros, still down?
18:14:36 <elliott> ineiros: HOLY SHIT IS THE SERVER ODWON;
18:14:42 <elliott> odwon, the purest state of being.
18:14:57 <elliott> "I don’t know if reaching through zombie legs to loot treasure chests is dangerous, but it feels dangerous."
18:15:03 <Vorpal> hm "I will start looking at server-side inventory soon in an attempt to reach beta soon."
18:15:05 <Vorpal> that scares me
18:15:05 <ineiros> 2010-12-01 20:14:29 [INFO] Connected players: fizzief, ehird
18:15:09 <Vorpal> where are the inventories now
18:15:19 <elliott> "Eggs! For that souffle I’ve always dreamed of!
18:15:20 <elliott> Gunpowder! For that gunpowder souffle I’ve always dreamed of!"
18:15:24 <elliott> Vorpal: IN YOUR MIND
18:15:27 <Vorpal> ineiros, it fails to connect to it still.
18:15:34 <ineiros> Yes. I'll restart.
18:15:42 <elliott> "When I stop dancing, I get back to digging my tunnel. And before long, I hit another type of block I’ve never seen before. I have a split second to identify it as ‘lava’ before it floods into my face."
18:15:53 <elliott> ineiros: SO WILL YOU USE HMOD :|
18:15:54 <elliott> With capitals.
18:16:18 <Vorpal> elliott, hmod hasn't been upgraded yet (at least fizzie said that above)
18:16:27 <elliott> Yes, but *will* he.
18:16:29 <elliott> As in, the future.
18:16:30 <Vorpal> elliott, and I doubt he would want the mem leak
18:16:33 <elliott> Yes, but *will* he.
18:16:34 <elliott> As in, the future.
18:16:41 <Vorpal> indeed that is the question
18:17:40 <elliott> http://kerneltrap.org/node/4893
18:17:44 <elliott> "I make a single boot+root floppy disk in minix file format and lilo boot loader." --2005
18:18:15 <Vorpal> heh
18:18:25 <Vorpal> ineiros, restarting it sure is slow
18:18:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: You should've paid for a better SLA.
18:18:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed :P
18:19:04 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
18:19:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, I blame notch not ineiros for this though
18:19:31 <elliott> ais523: So, have you ever written an actual minimax program?
18:20:04 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean as in the minmax algorithm for game solving?
18:20:13 <elliott> No. No I do not.
18:20:17 <ineiros> Vorpal: Sorry, I'm rebooting the whole server, since I've avoided that for a few kernel updates already.
18:20:22 <Vorpal> ineiros, ah
18:20:30 <elliott> ineiros: Is it running on Kitten?
18:20:31 <Vorpal> elliott, then what?
18:20:36 <elliott> Vorpal: JFEsolangsI
18:20:39 <Vorpal> elliott, ah
18:20:52 <Vorpal> elliott: where would he have downloaded kitten?
18:20:54 <elliott> ineiros: So yay or nay for hMod? :p
18:20:56 <elliott> Vorpal: My mind.
18:21:06 <Vorpal> elliott, interesting
18:22:21 <ineiros> elliott: I'll look into it when I have time. Definite maybe. :)
18:22:42 <elliott> ineiros: You do realise it's just a few .classes to replace? :p
18:22:43 <elliott> But yay.
18:22:53 <Vorpal> I like this flashlight. LED, 60 lumen, made of Aluminium. Feels very solid and durable. And still compact (just two AAA batteries)
18:23:17 <elliott> ineiros: Hmm, in fact, it's a batch file that downloads the server and does its magic. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
18:23:28 <Vorpal> elliott, not ported yet
18:23:28 <elliott> ineiros: Oh, there's an .sh too.
18:23:32 <elliott> Vorpal: I KNOW GOD DAMMIT
18:23:39 <elliott> ineiros: And it supports MYSQL! Note: Don't use MySQL.
18:24:00 <Vorpal> elliott, out of morbid curiosity: what does it use mysql for?
18:24:12 <elliott> Vorpal: You can make it use MySQL as opposed to flatfiles.
18:24:15 <elliott> Presumably that's quicker.
18:24:27 <Vorpal> elliott, for the game world?
18:24:43 <elliott> Prseumably.
18:24:45 <elliott> *Presumably.
18:24:45 <Vorpal> hm
18:24:46 <elliott> Perhaps not.
18:24:55 <fizzie> I would guess just the hMod-specific warp-points and kits and such.
18:25:02 <Vorpal> ah
18:25:18 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, MySQL is A Bad Thing, then?
18:25:20 <fizzie> Ban lists, whatevers.
18:25:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Yes.
18:25:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, well duh
18:25:33 <elliott> This is not an uncommon position :P
18:25:43 <Vorpal> also oracle now. Even worse
18:25:57 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, Vorpal, I never knew...
18:25:59 <Vorpal> ineiros, rebooting atm?
18:26:04 <Vorpal> ineiros, or what point is it at
18:26:05 <elliott> Vorpal: oh shut up
18:26:13 <elliott> IT'S DONE WHEN HE SAYS IT'S DONE
18:26:14 <Vorpal> elliott, just wondering how far it got
18:26:28 <ineiros> Try now.
18:26:47 <fizzie> "IRC <--> Minecraft chat relay and advanced administration bot". The most sensible thing evar. (Perusing the hMod plugin list.)
18:27:55 <elliott> fizzie: I would like that, just to annoy people who are playing.
18:28:22 <Vorpal> ineiros, are you logged in atm? Or do we get ghosts of logged in people now?
18:28:37 <Vorpal> since dwarf in there just stands around doing nothing
18:30:37 <Phantom_Hoover_> [[All other secondary schools (23 in total) will be open for 4th-6th year pupils tomorrow]]
18:30:47 <Phantom_Hoover_> The Forth Road Bridge closed due to snow today.
18:30:52 <Phantom_Hoover_> It has never done this before.
18:30:58 <Phantom_Hoover_> This is as stupid as hell.
18:31:12 <elliott> IT'S FOR YOUR EDUMCACAITNO
18:33:19 <Phantom_Hoover_> No, it's because we have a poseur and idiot for a First Minister.
18:33:27 <elliott> fizzie: ineiros: Vorpal: I am on fire near the spawnpoint. I refuse to stop being on fire.
18:33:45 <Vorpal> elliott, okay?
18:33:59 <elliott> Aww, Connection lost
18:34:01 <elliott> End of stream
18:37:35 <elliott> Vorpal: I suicide-fired.
18:37:37 <elliott> Thus the ALLAH.
18:37:43 * elliott tasteful
18:37:43 <Vorpal> ah
18:38:14 <elliott> Gregor: 14:53:14 * GregorR-W doesn't even know what tldr means :P
18:38:14 <elliott> 14:53:51 <kipple> heh, I had to look that one up too
18:38:14 <elliott> 14:54:36 <GregorR-W> Too Long Didn't Read?
18:38:14 <elliott> 14:54:38 <GregorR-W> XD
18:40:32 <oklofok> okay destroying the world whenever you die sounds like an awesome idea
18:41:32 <oklofok> i mean say in a mmorpg, there could be an infinite amount of worlds, and when you die in one, you're forever blocked from reentering it
18:41:53 <oklofok> your friends could all kill themselves to join you in the new world, but
18:42:27 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
18:42:30 <elliott> fizzie: Vorpal: Phantom_Hoover_: http://imgur.com/IwLKB.png
18:43:08 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
18:43:13 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:43:46 <Vorpal> elliott, everyone seen that
18:43:50 <Vorpal> elliott, not as foggy though
18:43:56 <Vorpal> elliott, do you use tiny or short distance?
18:44:02 <elliott> Short.
18:44:09 <elliott> Vorpal: I have more impressive ones:
18:44:11 <Vorpal> ah
18:44:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I seen such on far before
18:44:22 <Vorpal> elliott, it is nothing new
18:44:29 <elliott> Vorpal: That was looking *downwards on top of the sea*.
18:44:47 <Vorpal> elliott, I been on top of holes with seeing caverns below too
18:44:50 <elliott> http://imgur.com/L6ouQ.png http://imgur.com/WZqgE.png http://imgur.com/vkQoS.png These are really nice.
18:46:01 <Phantom_Hoover_> <Vorpal> elliott, I been on top of holes with seeing caverns below too
18:47:07 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:47:37 <Phantom_Hoover_> Say that in a deep Southern accent for great hilarity.
18:48:08 <elliott> :D
18:49:44 <Phantom_Hoover_> Ah, Sgeo. Have any liaisons with Newspeak planned for tonight?
18:50:34 <Sgeo> I plan on actually trying to write something
18:50:48 <elliott> Saucy.
18:51:03 <Phantom_Hoover_> Isn't it a little early in your relationship?
18:51:06 <oklofok> think about it, really the only thing mankind is lacking in games is true fear of death
18:51:31 <Phantom_Hoover_> You'll probably abandon it in 3 days like you did with Smalltalk, Factor, Scala, ...
18:51:45 <Sgeo> Did I abandon Factor in 3 days?
18:51:49 <oklofok> yeah Sgeo you're a real fuckface and everyone hates you
18:51:49 <Sgeo> Or Smalltalk?
18:52:12 * oklofok is just trying to be popular
18:53:08 <Sgeo> Now, let's see if I can avoid doing the same with real relationships
18:53:26 <oklofok> abandoning people in 3 days that is
18:53:27 <oklofok> ?
18:53:37 <Sgeo> I don't... think I would
18:54:04 <elliott> Suuuuure.
18:54:14 <oklofok> you haven't abandoned me yet
18:54:21 <elliott> oklofok: he never truly loved you
18:54:23 <oklofok> and we've been in an ircual relationship for years
18:54:30 <elliott> ineiros: http://wiki.nexua.org/Plugin:iStick wat
18:54:40 <elliott> oklofok: well it's well known that Sgeo is extremely gay of course
18:54:42 <elliott> and loves Finns
18:54:44 <elliott> but i didn't expect this
18:54:59 <oklofok> there's nothing gay about true online friendship
18:55:33 <elliott> oklofok: indeed; there's nothing faggy about a deep loving relationship with another man!
18:56:13 <Sgeo> <insert opposite of typical Sgeo joke here>
18:56:20 <Vorpal> ineiros, gah
18:56:34 <oklofok> i just realized newborns would probably be rather homicidal
18:56:41 <elliott> `addquote <oklofok> i just realized newborns would probably be rather homicidal
18:56:57 <oklofok> context being the mmorph with death
18:56:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, ended up in stone thanks to the issue, had to /home
18:57:00 <Vorpal> oh well
18:57:06 <oklofok> *mmorpg
18:57:06 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
18:57:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, and just after I saw spawn I timed out
18:57:33 <HackEgo> No output.
18:57:56 <Vorpal> ineiros, I noticed a pattern in your connection issues: off peak hours there are fewer drops. If fewer are playing there are fewer drops
18:57:58 <fizzie> Ended up somewhere underground too.
18:58:01 <elliott> "@notch instead of being an ass why don't you downgrade the server so we can play on smp you jeesh we're not your fing beta testers"
18:58:03 <Sgeo> Minecraft is buggier than AW. [Yes, I know that that's not saying anything at all]
18:58:04 <elliott> "@warlordv1 actually, you're alpha testers.."
18:58:08 <Vorpal> ineiros, maybe it is related to traffic?
18:58:13 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
18:58:43 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, PLEASE tell me that was self-irony.
18:58:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, down for quite some time now
18:59:16 <Phantom_Hoover_> (Note the subtle mockery of Vorpal)
18:59:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I never said anything like that
18:59:37 <elliott> Even more subtle when you point it out.
19:00:22 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, I remembered too late that Vorpal is about as subtle as a brick.
19:00:40 <Phantom_Hoover_> And has the memory of a BBC Micro.
19:00:56 <elliott> ais523: aren't you going to stand up for the Micro?!
19:00:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I don't believe in subtlety
19:01:40 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, come now, it was hardly the Memory Man.
19:01:52 <elliott> But ais523 grew up on it!
19:01:54 <elliott> He's actually a BASIC program.
19:02:41 <tswett> I've seen photos of ais523.
19:02:50 <elliott> Yeah -- he's quite the pixel painter.
19:03:03 <Phantom_Hoover_> He has a BEARD.
19:03:07 * tswett looks on his Wikipedia page.
19:03:09 <Phantom_Hoover_> It is RIDICULOUS.
19:03:18 <tswett> Oh, he no longer has a Wikipedia page.
19:03:30 <tswett> ais523 is now a redirect to "Wolfram's 2-state 3-symbol Turing machine".
19:03:35 <elliott> So it is.
19:03:36 <elliott> How sad.
19:03:36 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:03:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, why is it ridiculous?
19:03:53 <Phantom_Hoover_> Wikisnubbed.
19:04:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, why is the beard insane?
19:04:07 <Vorpal> or ridiculous
19:04:22 -!- cal153 has joined.
19:04:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I mean, who doesn't have a beard...
19:04:54 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:04:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/images/alex_smith_wolfram_turing.jpg
19:04:55 <Phantom_Hoover_> ais523, in all his beardy ridiculousness.
19:05:10 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, most women, I hear.
19:05:20 <tswett> Whoa, he has a beard.
19:05:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, okay in the subset men
19:05:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I don't see why it is strange that he has a beard
19:05:35 <Vorpal> or why it is ridiculous
19:05:40 <tswett> I'm going to refer to ais523 as Wolfram's 2-state 3-symbol Turing machine today.
19:05:46 <elliott> :D
19:05:46 <fizzie> I don't know, for some reason the photo reminds me of a soccer player.
19:05:47 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:05:49 <tswett> s/today/from now on/
19:05:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, could you please enlighten me why the beard is ridiculous?
19:06:32 <ineiros> elliott, Vorpal, fizzie, Phantom_Hoover_: Are you able to log in now?
19:06:36 <tswett> But I'm going to have to wait for wolfram's 2-state 3-symbol Turing machine to return before the fun begins.
19:06:47 <Vorpal> ineiros, trying again
19:06:51 <Vorpal> ineiros, no
19:06:55 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, look at it and use your goddamn in-built ridiculousness sensor.
19:06:59 <Vorpal> ineiros, just times out
19:07:01 <Phantom_Hoover_> You know, the one you get from being human.
19:07:09 <elliott> he's not human
19:07:12 <tswett> (Since "wolfram's 3-state 3-symbol Turing machine" is so long, every time I type "wolfram's 3state 3-sombol Turing machine" incorrectly, I'm going to replicate the typo from then on so that it will get shorter.)
19:07:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I have a beard too. Not the same model
19:07:31 * tswett stops saying stuff that doesn't contribute to the conversation at all.
19:07:33 <Vorpal> still it looks perfectly normal
19:08:05 <elliott> tswett: Flark.
19:08:21 <tswett> Greem zob?
19:08:52 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, I don't really want to think about how ridiculous you look full stop.
19:09:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, there is NOTHING silly or ridiculous with how ais523 looks on that photo
19:09:39 <Phantom_Hoover_> LEAVE AIS ALONE!
19:09:59 <oerjan> tswett: i note you already introduced a typo
19:10:23 <oerjan> or two, even
19:10:29 <tswett> Three.
19:10:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, well it was you who criticised him in the first place so that seems a bit hypocritical to say.
19:10:52 <Vorpal> ineiros, still timeout
19:10:52 <tswett> I typo "wolfram's 3state 3-sombol Turing machine" every time I type "wolfram's 3state 30-sombol Turing machine". Except not one of those times.
19:11:03 <tswett> It got longer. I'm going to throw out typos that make it longer.
19:11:20 <elliott> tswett is hill-climbing towards the empty string.
19:11:24 <Vorpal> tswett, sombol?
19:12:26 <Vorpal> ineiros, downess is still a property exhibted by the server
19:13:12 <oerjan> that poor, dow server
19:13:34 <fizzie> Department of What?
19:13:46 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:14:14 <elliott> tswett: By the way, Vorpal is AnMaster if you've been gone long enough not to know that.
19:14:29 <elliott> tswett: I'm not going to tell you who I am because it's bloody obvious.
19:14:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't know him from before
19:15:07 <Vorpal> oh wait
19:15:17 <oerjan> very forgettable guy, Vorpal
19:15:18 <Vorpal> right
19:15:19 <elliott> Yes, you do.
19:15:26 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I checked whois after
19:15:28 <oerjan> wait what
19:15:30 <Vorpal> elliott, before that I didn't
19:15:40 <Vorpal> oerjan, reading failure
19:16:00 <elliott> yeah unfortunately nobody can ever forget Vorpal.
19:16:18 <oerjan> he vorps into your mind
19:16:39 <Vorpal> oerjan, haha
19:17:57 <Vorpal> ineiros, anyway: very much down
19:18:01 -!- cheater99 has joined.
19:24:11 -!- Sasha2_ has joined.
19:24:13 -!- nopseudoidea has quit (Quit: Quitte).
19:24:45 <tswett> Vorpal is AnMaster. You're Mr. Hird.
19:24:56 <tswett> Or do you have a different title now?
19:25:48 <oerjan> Supreme Dictator Hird
19:26:06 -!- Sasha2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:26:20 <tswett> wolmfra's 3state 3-synmob Turing machine. womfra's 3state 3-symbon Turing machine. womfra's 2state 30synbom Truing machine. womfra's 3state 20symobn Truing machine.
19:27:43 <fizzie> Wombat's 3-stack 20-sylph Turning machete.
19:29:00 <Vorpal> tswett, what about "W.'s 2,3-TM"? or such
19:30:18 <elliott> tswett: Mrs. Hird
19:32:12 <tswett> womfra's 3state 29synb Truying macihemn. womfra's 3state 29smb Truing maicne. womfr'as 3state 29mws Truign amicne. womfr'as 2state 29mws Truign amicne. womfra's 2state 29mwd Truign acmien.
19:32:28 <elliott> I need to make an esolang called "womfra's 2state 29mwd Truign acmien".
19:33:14 <tswett> womfra's state 29mswd Trign amcien. womfra's state 29mws Tirng amcien. womfr'as state 29mws Tirng amcien. womfra's state 29sms Tirng amcien. womra's state 29sms Ting amcien. wom's state 29sms Ting amcien. woms' state 219sms Ting amcien.
19:33:15 <oerjan> it will be a fncutonal language
19:33:22 <tswett> It's getting there.
19:34:18 <tswett> woms' state 2s9sms Ting amcien. wom's state 29sms Ting amcien. woms' state 29sms Ting amcien. woms' state 29sms Ting amcien. woms' state 29sms Ting amcien. woms's tate 29sms Ting amcien. woms' tate 29sms Ting amcien. woms' tate 29sms Ting amcien. woms' tate 29sms ting amcine.
19:34:42 <Vorpal> elliott, also I don't think it is hill climbing. It seems more like simulated annealing.
19:35:11 <elliott> Vorpal: T' = mutate(T); if (fit(T') > fit(T)) T = T'; repeat
19:35:21 <tswett> wome' state 29sms ting amcine. wome' tate 29sms ting amcine. wome' stst 29sms ting amcine. wome stst 29sms ting amcine. wome stst 29sms ting amcine. wome stt 29sms ting ancine. wome stt 29sms ting ancine. wome stt 29mss ting ancine. wome stt 29mdd ting ancine. wome stt 29mdd ting ancine.
19:35:27 <elliott> In this case, fit(s) = -length(s) and mutate(s) = try and write s carelessly.
19:35:27 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but does he check all the neighbours in each step?
19:35:27 <elliott> No?
19:35:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh shaddup. :p
19:36:23 <Vorpal> elliott, thus the closer fit to simulated annealing. With a slow temperature change
19:36:27 <oerjan> when in wome, do as the womans
19:36:34 <fizzie> I don't think hill-climbing in general means you'd check all neighbours.
19:36:47 <fizzie> "In simple hill climbing, the first closer node is chosen, whereas in steepest ascent hill climbing all successors are compared and the closest to the solution is chosen."
19:36:54 <fizzie> See, it's the first alternative there.
19:37:12 <tswett> wome stt 29mdd ting ancine. wome stt 29mdmd ting ancine. wome stt 29emje ting ancine. wome stt 29mdd ting ancine. wome xstt 29mdd ting ancine. wome stt 29mdd ting ancine. wome stt 29mdd ting ancine. wome stt 29mdd ting ancine. wome stff 29dndd ting ancine. wome stt 29mdd ting ancine.
19:37:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh I didn't know about "simple hill climbing" I only heard about the second one
19:37:19 <tswett> Yeah, it's pretty much stabilized now.
19:37:31 <elliott> wome stt 29 mdd thing machine.
19:37:36 <elliott> wome stt 2w9mdd ting acine.
19:37:37 <Vorpal> wome stt 28tingachine
19:37:43 <elliott> woms tt 2wm89dnd ting acin
19:37:48 <elliott> woms tt w2mws989dnd ting aicn
19:37:51 <elliott> wms tti 2m89dnd ting acni
19:37:54 <Vorpal> wome tt 28 thingachine
19:37:57 <elliott> wms tti 28jndmndnd ting acin]#
19:38:03 <elliott> wms tti28m89dns tninag gnc
19:38:04 <Vorpal> wome th2 thingachine
19:38:16 <Vorpal> wom th 2 thinaghine
19:38:19 <elliott> tswett: Try "wms tti 2m89dnd ting acni"; that's the shortest I've got so far.
19:38:24 <Vorpal> wom th2 thinachine
19:38:25 <elliott> tswett: Shortening that middle block will be hard.
19:38:29 <Vorpal> wom th2 thingachine
19:38:40 <Vorpal> wom th2 thingchine
19:38:46 <Vorpal> wom th2 thingchine
19:38:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
19:38:50 <Vorpal> yeah stabilised
19:39:07 <tswett> wome stt 29mdd ting ancine. wome stt 29mdd tinvg acine. wome stt 29mdd ting acine. wome stt 29mdd ting acine. wome stt 2mdd ting acine. wome stt 29mdd ting acine. wome stt 2mdd ting acine. wome stt 2mdsd ting acine. wome stt 32mm ting acine. wome stt 3mm ting acine. wome stt 3mm ting acine. wome stt 3mm ting aicne. wome stt 3mm ting aicne. wome stt 3mm ting aicne. wome stt 3mm ting aicne. wome stt 3mm ting aicne.
19:39:18 <Vorpal> tswett, still longer than the one I got to
19:39:33 <Vorpal> well lets implement a genetic algorithm on this
19:39:41 <fizzie> Conclusion => he types better.
19:39:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, who does "he" refer to here
19:39:59 <fizzie> tswett.
19:40:00 <tswett> wome stt 3mm ting aicne. wome stt 3mm ting aicne. wome stt 3mm ting aicne. wome stt 3mm ting aicne. wome st 3mm tine acine. wome sst 3mm tine acine. some st 3mm tine acine. some st 3mm tine acine. some tt 3mm tine acine. some tt 3mm tine acine. some ttt 3mm tine acine.
19:40:01 <elliott> tswett.
19:40:03 <Vorpal> hm
19:40:05 <cheater99> ais523: you there?
19:40:05 <elliott> somet tt3 m m tine ianc
19:40:09 <elliott> somet 3t3t n m tine aicn
19:40:13 <elliott> somet t3jio nm tiainc
19:40:14 <Vorpal> somet tt3 m m tine inac
19:40:17 <elliott> somet tjio nm itnac
19:40:21 <elliott> somet tinj oj nm ainta
19:40:22 <Vorpal> some tt3 m m timtatn
19:40:24 <elliott> somet tjinco nm itacn
19:40:28 <elliott> somet tjio nm itanc
19:40:31 <fizzie> Some thingie oh-my titanic.
19:40:32 <elliott> somet itoj nm tiacn
19:40:32 <Vorpal> som tjio nm oitia
19:40:37 <Vorpal> (what?)
19:40:37 <elliott> smet itoj nm itan
19:40:42 <Vorpal> smet itjo nm itan
19:40:43 <elliott> mset iot nmi tn
19:40:47 <elliott> mset iot nmi tn
19:40:50 <elliott> mset niot n
19:40:55 <elliott> msetnio tn
19:40:57 <elliott> msetn iot n
19:40:57 <Vorpal> mset nio tn
19:40:59 <elliott> mseit not
19:41:03 <elliott> tswett: mseit not.
19:41:03 <Vorpal> mset no
19:41:06 <elliott> msetn ot
19:41:07 <elliott> smetno t
19:41:08 <tswett> some tt 3mm tine acine. some tt 2m3m tine acine. some tt 3mm tine acine. some tt 3mm tine acine. some tt 2mm tine acine. some ti 3mm tine acine. some ti 3mm tine caine. some ti 3mm tine caine. some ti 3mm tine caine. some ti 3mm tine caine. some ti 3mm tine caine. some ti 3mm tine ciane.
19:41:08 <elliott> mseton
19:41:08 <fizzie> Multiset, NMI not.
19:41:12 <elliott> mston
19:41:14 <elliott> tswett: mston.
19:41:18 <Vorpal> mstn
19:41:20 <elliott> tswett: Try mston.
19:41:24 <elliott> mstn
19:41:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I got shorter :P
19:41:26 <elliott> tswett: There. mstn.
19:41:26 <tswett> Mastodon.
19:41:34 <tswett> Mess-ton.
19:41:36 <elliott> tswett: http://www.mastodon.biz/
19:41:37 <Vorpal> XD
19:41:41 <elliott> ais523: /nick mstn
19:41:43 <Vorpal> messton
19:41:47 <Vorpal> meston
19:41:51 <Vorpal> meston
19:41:53 <elliott> wait
19:41:53 <Vorpal> mston
19:41:55 <elliott> let's go back the other way
19:41:57 <Vorpal> mston
19:41:58 <elliott> let's try and typo it larger
19:42:00 <Vorpal> mstn
19:42:01 <elliott> to get back to the original
19:42:05 <Vorpal> elliott, hah :P
19:42:14 <elliott> I'M SURE THIS PROCESS IS REVERSIBLE YOU GUYS
19:42:14 <Vorpal> elliott, THIS TIME! a genetic algorithim
19:42:18 <Vorpal> algorithm*
19:42:18 <tswett> some ti 3mm tine caine. some ti 3mm tine caine. some ti emm tine caine. some ti emm tine caine. some ti emm tine caine. some ti emm tine caine. some ti emm tine caine.
19:42:35 <tswett> Now that it contains "ti emm", I'm going to replace those sounds with the letters they name.
19:42:48 <elliott> mstn
19:42:49 <elliott> stmrio
19:42:50 <elliott> smtoni
19:42:50 <elliott> sermnotin
19:42:52 <elliott> mn soertn
19:42:53 <elliott> msoinert
19:42:54 <elliott> mseortni ertoin
19:42:55 <elliott> mseorit
19:42:56 <elliott> moseitn soertn
19:42:58 <elliott> soemn tooi i
19:43:00 <elliott> somet irtm oem
19:43:02 <elliott> someti reiom tine nc
19:43:05 <elliott> osmetie cireom ncein
19:43:05 <Vorpal> elliott, you can do multiple on same line like tswett does
19:43:09 <elliott> sotmeime ceion ncein
19:43:11 <elliott> Vorpal: this is to keep my honset
19:43:13 <elliott> somteime cein ceni
19:43:17 <elliott> sometime tji 3m jioct
19:43:21 <Vorpal> elliott, huh
19:43:24 <elliott> som etiem im 3ioj
19:43:28 <elliott> this will never work :D
19:43:39 <tswett> some TM tine caine. some TM tine caine. some tM tine caine. some tM tine caine. some tM tine caine. some tM tine caine. some tM tine caine. some Tm tine caine. some Tm tine caine. some Tm cint caine. some Tm cint caine. some Tm cint caine. some Tm cint caine. some Tm cint caine. some Tm cint caine. some Tm cint caint. some Tm cint taine. some Tm cint taine. some Tm cint taine. some Tm tcint taint. some Tm cint taint. some Tm cin
19:44:00 <Vorpal> ineiros, still very very down
19:44:04 <Vorpal> ineiros, just checked again
19:44:23 <fizzie> It's not just down, or very down; it is in fact very very down.
19:44:37 <fizzie> You'll need to start it thrice to get it all the way back up.
19:44:46 <tswett> some Tm cint taint. some tm cint that. some tm cint that. some tm cint that. some tm cint that. some tm cint that. some tm cint that. some t cnt that. some t cnt that. some t cnt that. some t cnt that. some t cnt that. some t cnt that. some t cnt that. some t cnt that. some t cnt that. some t cnt that. some t cnt that. some t cnt that. some t cnt that. some t cnt that. some t cnt that.
19:45:14 <elliott> somet mi cent hat
19:45:15 <tswett> Eh, I've gone far enough for my taste.
19:45:17 <elliott> sometiei mcetahti
19:45:17 <elliott> sdojitgsdiogj
19:45:19 <elliott> oijsdfoi
19:45:20 <elliott> sdjf
19:45:21 <elliott> djf
19:45:22 <elliott> djf
19:45:22 <elliott> df
19:45:23 <elliott> d
19:45:24 <elliott>
19:45:31 <tswett> ais523: your name is now "some Tm cint taint".
19:46:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, port is still open says nmap
19:47:00 <fizzie> Yes, it wouldn't stay in the "logging in" mode if it wasn't, I guess.
19:50:34 <elliott> "You may have thought the latest Postoffice beta release was a fairly trivial one. But no, that honor is reserved for discount, which has been pushed up to version 2.0.3 by simply updating the markdown(1) and markdown(3) manpages to correctly describe the thicket of MKD_flags available in the 2.x version of the published interface."
19:50:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Wha?
19:51:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just David Parsons' insane software ramblings.
19:53:54 <elliott> I wonder whether postoffice is less pain than qmail.
19:53:57 <elliott> (To set up.)
19:55:26 <elliott> Vorpal: ls -A | xargs -d'\n' find \
19:55:33 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm bugging you today --
19:55:44 <elliott> Vorpal: How could one write this in a way that works? As it is, it gives the path last to find, which Does Not Work.
19:55:50 <elliott> (No, I can't use GNU xargs's -I.)
19:57:23 <Vorpal> uh
19:57:32 <Vorpal> elliott, waiting for rest of command :P
19:57:37 <Vorpal> elliott, there is a \ on the end
19:57:42 <Vorpal> >
19:57:43 <elliott> Vorpal: The rest is irrelevant (just find expressions).
19:57:48 <elliott> The issue is that you can't give find paths after expressions.
19:57:57 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed you can't
19:58:06 <elliott> Vorpal: So my xargs doesn't work there.
19:58:08 <Vorpal> elliott, if you use ls -A I guess no space
19:58:15 <elliott> Vorpal: What?
19:58:30 <Vorpal> elliott, the paths obviously are sanely delimited?
19:58:33 <Vorpal> oh wait newline
19:58:34 <Vorpal> right
19:58:35 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes.
19:58:41 <elliott> Vorpal: So the issue is, how can I do this?
19:58:42 <Vorpal> elliott, MAAAYBE mess with IFS
19:58:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Ugh.
19:58:48 <Vorpal> elliott, but I don't know
19:58:55 <elliott> Vorpal: All I want to do is have find not put "./" before everything.
19:58:58 <Vorpal> elliott, use a saner language than shell script
19:59:19 <Vorpal> elliott, find ... | sed 's/^\.\///' ?
19:59:22 <elliott> find is the Right Thing here.
19:59:23 <fizzie> Can't you just postprocess the find output to sensib...
19:59:32 <elliott> \( -type l -printf '0000000000000000000000000000000000000000 %p\n' \) -o \
19:59:32 <elliott> \( -type d -printf '0000000000000000000000000000000000000000 %p/\n' \) -o \
19:59:32 <elliott> \( -type f -exec sha1sum '{}' \; \)
19:59:36 <elliott> "Maybe, but not with that script."
19:59:54 <Vorpal> elliott, I suggest that you post process it indeed
19:59:56 <elliott> Oh, wait; BusyBox find doesn't even have printf.
19:59:58 <elliott> Hooray post-processing.
20:00:03 <elliott> Or just not using find.
20:00:17 <Vorpal> elliott, why are you limiting yourself to busybox here?
20:00:56 <elliott> Vorpal: because Kitten uses BusyBox.
20:01:03 <elliott> BusyBox isn't exactly lacking in features.
20:01:09 <elliott> (Take a look at "busybox ls --help" sometime.)
20:01:30 <elliott> Vorpal: If you know of any coreutils replacement that's even vaguely as complete, I'd love to hear about it...
20:01:41 <Vorpal> elliott, whatever *BSD uses?
20:01:50 <Vorpal> elliott, well freebsd mostly
20:01:59 <elliott> Vorpal: *BSD have coreutils in their source tree. They are not portable.
20:02:01 <Vorpal> openbsd is quite a lot worse
20:02:12 <Vorpal> elliott, oh? what sort of BSD specific functions?
20:02:16 <elliott> They do not compile on anything other than BSD; perhaps not even anything other than *that* BSD.
20:02:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Mostly headers, actually.
20:02:30 <elliott> Vorpal: But the Makefiles also only work with BSD make and require the BSD make includes (bsd.prog.mk and the like).
20:02:34 <elliott> So I pretty much just gave up at that point.
20:03:01 <elliott> I tried Minix but their Makefile system is similarly tangly.
20:03:10 <ineiros> I think I have to apply the update.
20:03:45 <Vorpal> ineiros, right.
20:03:47 <ineiros> The server seems to keep doing those unexpected exceptions.
20:03:59 <ineiros> Apparently it doesn't work well with the updated client.
20:04:21 <Vorpal> yay, how reliable
20:04:45 <Vorpal> I wonder what sending it specially crafted (no pun intended) packets would do?
20:04:57 <Vorpal> presumably easy to crash it
20:05:42 <elliott> Hmph. Maybe I'll store the type of the file before the hash.
20:05:52 <elliott> Writing a useful manifest is irritating...
20:06:21 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:06:29 <Vorpal> elliott, why not sha2?
20:06:33 <Vorpal> sha1 is meh
20:06:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Because the sole thing this is used for is for checking whether the user has changed a given file.
20:06:55 <elliott> Vorpal: I could even get away with CRC32.
20:07:01 <Vorpal> elliott, ah not for download integrity then
20:07:04 <Vorpal> right
20:07:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, rsync will handle that.
20:07:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Basically, when you uninstall, it'll remove all the files whose hashes match, and print out the names of all the files that don't.
20:07:43 <elliott> So you can remove configuration files manually if you want.
20:07:49 <Vorpal> elliott, ah interesting
20:07:59 <elliott> This means I don't have to keep track of what's a package file and what's a user file. :p
20:08:15 <ineiros> Updated.
20:08:26 <Vorpal> elliott, btw I thought about the owner thing. Pretty much every daemon that installs files into /var and that can get away with not running as root will have files that shouldn't be owned by root
20:09:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, I could write something that goes and chmods every file owned by the user building the package.
20:09:15 <elliott> But it seems easier just to use a postinst script.
20:09:21 <Vorpal> elliott, mhm
20:09:44 <Vorpal> elliott, also stuff like nethack that is sgid games
20:09:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Some distros run NetHack as root. :-)
20:09:59 <elliott> (Of course, I'm not that stupid.)
20:10:02 <Vorpal> whaaat
20:10:09 <Vorpal> elliott, that way there can only be one player?
20:10:13 <elliott> ...no.
20:10:17 <elliott> Why would you think that?
20:10:25 <Vorpal> elliott, uh. if you run as root you are root?
20:10:31 <Vorpal> the player you are I meant
20:10:42 <elliott> Vorpal: Um, I think it checks the different UID.
20:10:44 <elliott> The one that doesn't change.
20:10:51 <elliott> (But there *was* a security flaw in NetHack that left such distros vulnerable.)
20:10:51 <Vorpal> ah
20:11:00 * elliott make menuconfigs uClibc
20:11:08 <elliott> Yes, utilise the MMU. :p
20:11:17 <elliott> And the FPU, too!
20:11:36 <elliott> │ If you want the uClibc math library to contain the full set C99 │
20:11:36 <elliott> │ math library features, then answer Y. If you leave this set to │
20:11:36 <elliott> │ N the math library will contain only the math functions that were │
20:11:36 <elliott> │ listed as part of the traditional POSIX/IEEE 1003.1b-1993 standard. │
20:11:36 <elliott> │ Leaving this option set to N will save around 35k on an x86 system. │
20:11:41 <elliott> I love how specific some of these options are.
20:12:00 <elliott> │ j0, j1, jn - Bessel functions of the first kind │
20:12:00 <elliott> │ y0, y1, yn - Bessel functions of the second kind │
20:12:03 <elliott> I... don't think I need those.
20:13:11 <elliott> │ The kernel source you use to compile with should be the same │
20:13:11 <elliott> │ as the Linux kernel you run your apps on.
20:13:12 <elliott> Sheesh.
20:13:22 <elliott> That's... really irritating.
20:14:27 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:15:23 <elliott> In fact, I'm not even sure how to solve that.
20:15:28 <elliott> Upgrade my kernel manually on Debian?
20:16:18 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
20:16:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, there?
20:17:03 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what if you need to compute Bessel functions!
20:17:19 <elliott> PIC doesn't work with static libraries, right? :p
20:17:35 <Vorpal> elliott, I'd assume PIE would
20:17:50 <Vorpal> elliott, doubtful on 32-bit x86 though
20:17:54 <elliott> Vorpal: x86-64
20:17:56 <fizzie> Mmmm, PIE.
20:18:05 <elliott> Vorpal: i.e. should I bother telling uClibc to use -fPIC if I'm doing all static linking
20:18:11 <elliott> fizzie: (oblig. http://www.weebls-stuff.com/wab/pie/)
20:18:16 <elliott> fizzie: Saved you the effort of Vorpal's questioning!
20:18:21 <Vorpal> elliott, yes probably
20:18:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, know of a 3x3 shaft with spiral stair next to your house?
20:18:26 <elliott> <Vorpal> But I don't HAVE Flash!
20:18:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, tell it to use -fPIC? Really?
20:18:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, does all the way down and all the way up
20:18:50 <Vorpal> elliott, sure you can't do ASLR without it
20:19:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Which doesn't work with static linking...
20:19:19 <elliott> Duh.
20:19:43 <Vorpal> elliott, sure? I thought it did
20:19:51 <Vorpal> elliott, since it could move around heap and stack and such
20:19:58 <Vorpal> elliott, and also where the binary is loaded
20:22:26 <elliott> Vorpal: "#
20:22:26 <elliott> Security measures like load address randomization cannot be used. With statically linked applications, only the stack and heap address can be randomized. All text has a fixed address in all invocations. With dynamically linked applications, the kernel has the ability to load all DSOs at arbitrary addresses, independent from each other. In case the application is built as a position independent executable (PIE) even this code can be loaded at rand
20:22:26 <elliott> om addresses. Fixed addresses (or even only fixed offsets) are the dreams of attackers. And no, it is not possible in general to generate PIEs with static linking. On IA-32 it is possible to use code compiled without -fpic and -fpie in PIEs (although with a cost) but this is not true for other architectures, including x86-64."
20:22:28 <elliott> Vorpal: --Drepper
20:22:38 <elliott> So: no.
20:22:52 <elliott> (ASLR is really not that useful, though; it's a bit of a niche exploit to cover for.)
20:23:37 <Phantom_Hoover> In other news, I read all of the Ed stories.
20:25:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They are rather good.
20:25:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, although the depressingness rises exponentially.
20:26:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The ending is quite happy, really... apart from that one thing.
20:26:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, except for the "how little we deserved it" bit.
20:26:49 <Phantom_Hoover> And that one thing.
20:27:36 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Quit: omghaahhahaohwow).
20:27:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I have lost my PDF copy of it!
20:27:42 <elliott> It was nice. LaTeX'd.
20:28:14 <Phantom_Hoover> :O
20:28:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Have you read the epilogue? http://qntm.org/free
20:28:40 <elliott> I included it in the PDF after a few blank pages.
20:30:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm. Ambiguous.
20:30:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Could be... you know...
20:32:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think it's sort of meant to take place outside of any actual timeline.
20:32:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose.
20:33:49 <elliott> │ bcmp, bcopy, bzero, index, rindex, ftime, │
20:33:49 <elliott> │ bsd_signal, (ecvt), (fcvt), gcvt, (getcontext), │
20:33:49 <elliott> │ (getwd), (makecontext), │
20:33:49 <elliott> │ mktemp, (pthread_attr_getstackaddr), (pthread_attr_setstackaddr), │
20:33:49 <elliott> │ scalb, (setcontext), (swapcontext), ualarm, usleep, │
20:33:50 <elliott> │ wcswcs. │
20:33:52 <elliott> Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
20:33:54 <elliott> Do I need these, I wonder.
20:34:20 <elliott> Ha! There's an option not to include gets solely because it's obsolete.
20:34:21 <elliott> I think not.
20:34:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:34:35 <pikhq> elliott: Ulrich Drepper there is blatantly lying.
20:34:39 <elliott> pikhq: Oh?
20:35:20 <pikhq> elliott: Position independent executables are entirely feasible with static linking. However, you get fixed offsets in the binaries.
20:35:21 <Vorpal> ineiros, are you torrenting or something? it is very laggy
20:35:24 <Vorpal> ineiros, but not timing out
20:35:33 <elliott> ineiros: You must feel so scrutinised.
20:35:37 <elliott> Torrent away; Vorpal needs a break.
20:35:48 <elliott> pikhq: Mm. I think I won't bother though.
20:35:49 <pikhq> elliott: Making it much less *useful* than with dynamic linking, where each library can be loaded at a random address.
20:35:57 <elliott> pikhq: Address space randomisation is... well... fairly pointless.
20:37:09 <elliott> │ Answer Y to enable repeated reading of the '/etc/TZ' file even after │
20:37:09 <elliott> │ a valid value has been read. This incurs the overhead of an │
20:37:09 <elliott> │ open/read/close for each tzset() call (explicit or implied). However, │
20:37:09 <elliott> │ setting this will allow applications to update their timezone │
20:37:09 <elliott> │ information if the contents of the file change. │
20:37:10 <elliott> Hmm.
20:37:12 <pikhq> It makes a certain class of attacks somewhat harder, but in that class of attacks you're already pretty well fucked.
20:37:13 <elliott> Eh, it's not much overhead.
20:37:22 <elliott> /etc/TZ is not a nice name for the file though.
20:37:26 <elliott> Any suggestions?
20:38:59 <elliott> pikhq: Is it evil to have a file named /etc/timezone with completely different syntax to glibc's?
20:41:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, FWIW, I had a little niggle at the back of my head when the energy virus was introduced by analogy with Life.
20:44:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What was it this time. :p
20:44:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, down?
20:45:01 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the niggle?
20:45:08 <fizzie> Seems that way.
20:45:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
20:45:23 <elliott> pikhq: Am I baaaaaaaaad?
20:45:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, looked like an optimised design
20:45:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is the obsidian risk in it?
20:45:40 <elliott> Vorpal: *OPTOMIZED
20:45:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, and how much goes back into the lava?
20:45:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, there's no such pattern known in Life, and I'd put large quantities of money on it not existing.
20:45:55 <Vorpal> elliott, that z is so american
20:46:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, back up
20:46:27 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:46:43 <oklofok> what kind of pattern doesn't exist in life?
20:46:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What, something that can eat everything?
20:46:54 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, indeed.
20:46:59 <oklofok> oh
20:47:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not so sure...
20:47:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, "almost" anything anyway.
20:47:26 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, show me a spaceship that can survive a collision with a blinker.
20:47:29 <oklofok> i have to think about this
20:47:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: who says it's necessarily a spaceship
20:48:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: have some eaty things on the end, and have a special kind of spacefiller in the middle that, when it collides with the eaty things from *behind*, "pushes" them further forward
20:48:07 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the principle is identicle.
20:48:14 <quintopia> | <-- how does one type this character?
20:48:15 <elliott> i'm not so sure
20:48:18 <elliott> although I think it's unlikely
20:48:18 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
20:48:24 <elliott> quintopia: |
20:48:25 <quintopia> ||
20:48:27 <elliott> quintopia: altgr-` on uk keyboards
20:48:28 <quintopia> huh
20:48:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Spaceship: self-propagating pattern into vacuum.
20:48:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Energy virus: self-propagating pattern into *everything*.
20:48:53 <oklofok> so basically, we're asking, for a given CA, if there exists a finite pattern such that given any configuration with that pattern in the middle, the orbit converges to 0
20:48:53 <quintopia> i didn't output the character i meant to because apparently it is unicode
20:49:05 <oklofok> orbit of the configuration i mean
20:49:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:49:25 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, such patterns exist in several CAs, and some unconventional formulations of Life.
20:49:26 <oklofok> in english, bigger and bigger balls are filled with 0
20:49:36 <quintopia> elliott: the vertical bar in you messages at 15:33 and 15:36. what unicode value is it?
20:49:51 <elliott> quintopia: i don't know, ask python
20:50:01 <elliott> >>> ord(u'|')
20:50:01 <elliott> 124
20:50:03 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: well yes, obviously you can make a CA with such a pattern
20:50:10 <elliott> seems it's just |
20:50:16 <elliott> on windows it's a broken |
20:50:17 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, also, for this purpose I'll go for chaos for some value of "chaos".
20:50:17 <oklofok> you can even make it nilpotent, in which case every pattern has that property
20:50:49 -!- kar8nga has joined.
20:51:14 <pikhq> elliott: If you ever want to run a glibc program, absolutely TERRIBLE.
20:51:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, almost all dense agars have that problem.
20:51:23 <pikhq> elliott: Otherwise, not at all.
20:51:40 <elliott> pikhq: doesn't glibc look at $TZ before /etc/timezone
20:51:53 <Phantom_Hoover> And the blank universe isn't really distinguished from the infinitely striped universe.
20:51:54 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: i don't get your chaos comment
20:51:59 <elliott> pikhq: i do want to be able to run quake ii, which is circa-1997 gcc/glibc static linking :)
20:52:07 <pikhq> elliott: You're asking about how brain-damaged Glibc is.
20:52:12 <pikhq> elliott: The answer is "very:".
20:52:16 <pikhq> Any further questions?
20:52:29 <elliott> pikhq: No! Okay, name it then. Basically, writing to this file is the same as setting $TZ to the contents.
20:52:34 <elliott> pikhq: /etc/TZ is the default but that is *ugly*.
20:52:37 <elliott> pikhq: Maybe /etc/tz?
20:52:53 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, it needn't be 0 within the bubble, just that the bubble overwrites all preëxisting structures and is almost impossible to stop.
20:53:06 <oklofok> and yes obviously we can define identicles w.r.t. every configuration (i liked your typo so much i'd like to name this concept that, even though it probably has a name already, and identicle doesn't make any sense)
20:53:23 <oklofok> almost impossible?
20:53:24 <pikhq> elliott: /etc/org.sun.xml.config.time.zone.xml
20:53:25 <pikhq> :P
20:53:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I said identicles?
20:53:37 <Phantom_Hoover> GYAAAAA
20:53:38 <oklofok> well you just typoed identical "identicle"
20:54:00 <oklofok> but so erm what does almost impossible mean
20:54:02 * Phantom_Hoover commits sepukku.
20:54:23 <oklofok> i guess measure theoretical or topological duh
20:54:48 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, it's hard to define formally, but that almost all possible patterns will be destroyed would do.
20:55:36 <oklofok> we could just take the topological denseness and measure theoretical full measureness, and hope they make sense in this context too
20:55:41 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, incidentally, engineering isn't a very good solution to durability in Life.
20:55:47 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Perhaps you should commit sehų'ku instead.
20:56:02 <pikhq> Erm, sorry. se'hųku
20:56:10 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, MY GUTS ARE SPILLING OUT YOUR ROMANISATION IS NOT IMPORTANT
20:56:22 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Your romanisation was spelled wrong anyways.
20:56:27 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: "Seppuku".
20:56:49 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, I COMMIT SUICIDE AND YOU CRITICISE MY SPELLING
20:56:51 <elliott> fizzie: This is just wrong: http://imgur.com/yMEWy.png
20:56:53 <Phantom_Hoover> WHAt
20:56:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover too
20:56:59 <pikhq> "Sepukku" comes out as something like "back poo phrase"
20:57:12 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hey if pikhq hadn't, i would
20:57:26 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie facewalls at his duplication.
20:58:25 <fizzie> Speaking of the sparkles, http://zem.fi/~fis/current-hird.png
20:58:28 <oklofok> oerjan: is there an identicle for gol?
20:59:39 -!- augur has joined.
20:59:59 <oerjan> well what if you have two of them colliding?
21:00:13 <oklofok> good point
21:00:30 <oklofok> what's problematic about that
21:00:57 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, what have you defined an identicle as?
21:00:58 <pikhq> http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/cable/2008/01/08OTTAWA136.html
21:01:00 <oklofok> you have two growing balls of zeroes, those would just both have to keep growing
21:01:14 <oerjan> hm
21:01:28 <pikhq> The US... Actively monitors Canadian TV for unAmerican things on prime time‽
21:01:38 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: a finite pattern P such that, given any configuration C with P in the middle, T^n C --> 0 where T is the CA rule
21:01:45 <oklofok> and 0 is the all zero configuration
21:01:56 <oklofok> and limits are taken w.r.t. product topology
21:02:21 <elliott> pikhq: RR RUEHAG RUEHAST RUEHDA RUEHDF RUEHFL RUEHGA RUEHHA RUEHIK RUEHKW
21:02:21 <elliott> RUEHLA RUEHLN RUEHLZ RUEHPOD RUEHQU RUEHROV RUEHSR RUEHVC RUEHVK
21:02:21 <elliott> RUEHYG
21:02:21 <elliott> DE RUEHOT #0136/01 0252315
21:02:21 <elliott> ZNR UUUUU ZZH
21:02:22 <elliott> lol
21:02:24 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, there does have to be a wavefront made of live cells at the edge of the identicle.
21:02:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Moreover, there are rules about propagation into vacuum.
21:02:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Bounding boxes and things.
21:02:51 <elliott> pikhq: [["THE BORDER" -CANADA'S ANSWER TO 24, W/O THAT SUTHERLAND GUY]] LOL
21:03:04 <pikhq> "We need to do everything we can to make it more difficult for Canadians to fall into the trap of seeing all U.S. policies as the result of nefarious faceless U.S. bureaucrats anxious to squeeze their northern neighbor."
21:03:14 <pikhq> Hmm. How's about you stop doing stupid shit. I think that'd do it.
21:03:27 <oklofok> surely there is a wavefront, yes
21:03:57 <oklofok> "rules about propagation into vacuum, bounding boxes and things"?
21:04:09 <elliott> [[GIVE US YOUR WATER; OH WHAT THE HECK WE'LL TAKE YOUR COUNTRY TOO]]
21:04:11 <elliott> pikhq: these headlines are amazing
21:04:36 <pikhq> And this was *never once classified*.
21:04:38 <oklofok> oh you meant
21:04:38 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, OK, and the absolute, unbreakable rule about propagation into the vacuum is that it must stay within a diagonal box expanding at less than c/2.
21:04:40 <oklofok> in the definition
21:04:43 <oklofok> there should be a wavefront?
21:04:47 <oklofok> or maybe not
21:04:48 <oerjan> limits in product topology is a pretty lenient requirement, the zero region can expand as slowly as it wants
21:05:11 <oklofok> oerjan: imo that's the correct definition
21:05:18 <elliott> fizzie: Now watch as I fail to disappear.
21:05:25 <Phantom_Hoover> That's restricted further to less than c/4, but I'm not sure.
21:05:26 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, if there's one in Life it *must* have a wavefront.
21:05:34 <oerjan> well i'm just pointing out that it doesn't conflict with slow propagation
21:05:35 <Phantom_Hoover> If any bubble of empty space expanded [tab complete].
21:05:59 <oklofok> c/2 is rather arbitrary, if you halve a rule, make it slower that is, it can suddenly have no identicle, even though it's essentially the same rule
21:06:03 <oklofok> which is crazy
21:06:04 <oklofok> oh
21:06:09 <oklofok> c/2 changes too tho
21:06:41 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: what must stay within a diagonal box exp...?
21:06:46 <oklofok> the wavefront?
21:07:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Any configuration of live cells cannot expand beyond the box.
21:07:19 <oklofok> "<Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, if there's one in Life it *must* have a wavefront." <<< yes and i'm sure we can prove the existence of a kind of wavefront in general, in non-nilpotent rules
21:07:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, movement at >= c/2 diagonally basically writes "THIS RULE EXPLODES" on the starting grid.
21:07:56 <oklofok> what is propagation into vacuum even?
21:09:05 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: i find that a less beautiful definition than mine though, i would prefer say calling certain identicles explosive, or even better, defining their explosion speeds
21:09:27 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, turning on of live cells into an area filled with state 9.
21:09:34 <Phantom_Hoover> *0.
21:10:39 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:12:01 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, incidentally, is your T^n thing indicating that T is a transition function operating n times?
21:12:20 <oklofok> so erm, can you reiterate, what are the things you'd like in the definition?
21:12:37 <oklofok> yes
21:12:57 * Sgeo wants a Truing machine
21:13:09 <Sgeo> Makes false statements true by changing reality
21:13:33 <Sgeo> ^^would have been funnier without those last three words, I think
21:13:44 <oklofok> maybe
21:13:46 <oklofok> we'll never know
21:13:49 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, well, the T^n C → 0 thing was pretty good.
21:13:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm just poorly expressing why I think no such configuration exists.
21:13:59 <oklofok> i think it's nice and pure
21:14:30 <oklofok> oh you were? i'm not really interested in gol in particular, i just thought there might be some neat properties you could prove for identicles in general
21:15:27 <oklofok> erm...
21:15:47 <oklofok> actually
21:16:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm. "In general" is pretty boring in CAs, since there's very little common ground other than the discreteness.
21:16:14 <oklofok> basically what an identicle is a neighborhood such that all points of it converge to zero
21:16:31 <oklofok> so in fact there is a very natural way to express this concept for a general dynamical system
21:17:20 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: in general is not boring in ca's, and when it happens to be, you assume a property from the ca's, you don't take one particular one, that's ugly
21:18:04 <oklofok> that's like talking about the properties of the number 8, who gives a shit
21:18:12 <oklofok> well
21:18:24 <oklofok> maybe not exactly, but close :D
21:19:30 <Phantom_Hoover> This *started* with Life-related pedantry.
21:19:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Although where it will end up is anyone's guess.
21:20:00 <oklofok> so basically, given a point in a CA, an identicle is an open set such that blah blah, this concept is probably very much connected with attracting sets or something
21:20:31 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: i usually hope it ends in a theorem/-y
21:21:06 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, stop knowing more maths than me.
21:21:08 <Phantom_Hoover> I find it mocking.
21:21:14 <oklofok> where did i know maths you don't
21:21:25 <oklofok> if you're talking about attracting sets, i basically just said i don't know anything about those :D
21:21:30 <oklofok> erm
21:21:34 <Phantom_Hoover> What open sets are!
21:21:39 <oklofok> actually i didn't say the part where i know nothing about them
21:21:40 <oklofok> erm
21:21:44 <oklofok> you don't know what open sets are?
21:22:06 <oklofok> in this case or in no case?
21:22:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Depends on whether it's in terms of intervals or topology and stuff.
21:22:31 <oklofok> it's the same thing, except w.r.t. the metric on the space of all configurations
21:22:58 <oklofok> and not intervals but balls
21:23:09 <oklofok> an open set is a set U such that for each x \in U, there is an open ball B(x, r) \subset U
21:23:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Also know it there.
21:23:31 <Deewiant> Intervals are one-dimensional balls
21:24:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, if you're considering lifeoid CAs there are some laws you can work out in terms of speed limits in some configurations.
21:24:31 <oklofok> and the metric says roughly that if you take the ball B(x, r), given a configuration x, you actually take the pattern P in x in the ball around origin, of size 2^(-r), and you take all configurations y that have that pattern in the middle
21:24:56 <oklofok> so basically, two points are close if they are the same around the origin
21:25:06 <oklofok> pretty much anyway you define that formally gives you the same topology
21:25:24 <Phantom_Hoover> For instance, for anything to move diagonally at c/2 or greater through an area with no live cells, the rule basically has to be explosive.
21:25:41 <oklofok> oh there's a definition for explosiveness?
21:26:26 <oklofok> because i thought that was your definition of explosiveness
21:26:52 <oerjan> of course gol is particularly interesting for this question precisely because that CA apparently makes it impossible to create a structure that can survive contact with arbitrary chaos
21:29:40 <oklofok> "<Phantom_Hoover> Depends on whether it's in terms of intervals or topology and stuff." <<< i don't think open sets refer to anything but the topology kind
21:29:40 <oklofok> but i contain an open ball around all of my points for corrections ofc
21:29:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed, but intervals \subset topology stuff.
21:29:41 <Phantom_Hoover> And I only knew that subset.
21:29:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Care to hear about my INSANE MINECRAFT FORT PLANS?
21:29:42 <oklofok> erm right, i actually slightly misparsed you
21:29:42 <elliott> >_>
21:29:42 <oklofok> or misunderstood more like
21:29:42 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I do.
21:29:43 <oklofok> elliott: let's talk about identicles instead
21:29:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I like insane plans!
21:29:43 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, explosive rules are those in which patterns which expand without bound are very common.
21:29:44 <Phantom_Hoover> For a given value of "very common".
21:30:08 <oklofok> oerjan: i didn't know it was known for it's ability to that
21:30:57 <oerjan> well i mean, i've never heard of anyone inventing a gol structure that can survive such contact
21:33:07 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, that's basically why Conway settled on it.
21:33:09 <oklofok> i would certainly like to know what given value
21:33:10 <oklofok> okay
21:33:11 <oklofok> good to know, i thought he just thought hey this is neat.
21:33:11 <oklofok> :P
21:33:13 <oklofok> "lol this glider is cute"
21:33:32 <Phantom_Hoover> I think he tried multiple Lifelike CAs and went for the one he found that supported long-term dynamic behaviour without everything filling the board with chaos.
21:34:27 <Phantom_Hoover> There is a most resilient known structure, and it's not very resilient.
21:34:39 <Phantom_Hoover> And static.
21:34:53 <oerjan> the eater?
21:35:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: hm but can you build a spacefiller that works by replicating itself?
21:35:04 <elliott> as in, sure, tons of them may die
21:35:13 -!- Sasha2_ has quit (*.net *.split).
21:35:14 -!- Leonidas has quit (*.net *.split).
21:35:14 -!- nooga has quit (*.net *.split).
21:35:14 -!- sshc has quit (*.net *.split).
21:35:14 <elliott> but they're replicating fast enough that eventually, they will end up destroying the debris
21:35:47 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, all complex structures in life are *really really fragile*.
21:36:06 <Phantom_Hoover> As in, "whoops I hit it with a glider and it's dead" fragile.
21:36:21 -!- sshc has joined.
21:36:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So make the structure simple.
21:36:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Rather than trying to fill space, just make a simple thing that makes little baby space-fillers.
21:36:37 <Phantom_Hoover> The Gemini replicator would completely fail if a single glider in its instruction tape was changed.
21:36:41 <elliott> Basically, instead of trying to grow to fill the space...
21:36:46 <elliott> Just try and fill the universe with paperclips.
21:36:46 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, a spacefilling replicator with simple structure?
21:36:47 <elliott> Constantly.
21:36:57 <Phantom_Hoover> How would that even *work*?
21:37:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, OK, I would try it in a Life-like rule with simple replicators first.
21:37:12 <elliott> But the basic idea is: Keep replicating further away from yourself, constantly.
21:37:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Spacefillers leave no room; they expand outwards at maximum speed in all directions.
21:37:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I didn't mean a regular kind of spacefiller.
21:37:39 <elliott> I just meant something that eventually gets rid of everything else on the plane.
21:37:45 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, so a breeder, then?
21:37:55 -!- Sasha2_ has joined.
21:37:55 -!- Leonidas has joined.
21:37:55 -!- nooga has joined.
21:38:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sure. Except that instead of one breeder, each unit is a breeder in itself.
21:38:16 <Phantom_Hoover> "Spacefiller" is actually fairly well defined.
21:38:17 <elliott> If one of them gets sucked up by some debris, no problem; another will end up being bred to fill its space.
21:39:03 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, that is just a replicator, surely?
21:39:03 <Phantom_Hoover> And all of them will die when they attempt to replicate over each other.
21:41:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, the trick is to make two colliding replicators result in one replicator. :p
21:41:33 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm next to a deeep pit
21:41:46 <Vorpal> elliott, from 20 below surface to lava lake
21:41:50 <Vorpal> elliott, or so
21:42:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Phantom_Hoover knows a deeper pit.
21:42:06 <Vorpal> elliott, 1x1 wide almost all the way
21:42:15 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean the one you fell in?
21:42:20 <elliott> Vorpal: No.
21:42:35 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean a *really* deep pit.
21:42:39 <Vorpal> elliott, argh an even deeper one over here
21:42:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Not as deep as Phantom_Hoover's.
21:43:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I'm assuming he means the hole in the bedrock I found under the Mt. Hoover tunnel.
21:43:06 <Vorpal> elliott, this one goes down to the minecart tracks
21:43:07 <elliott> DON'T TELL HIM
21:43:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah right
21:43:15 <Vorpal> elliott, I saw him mention that
21:43:20 <Vorpal> I didn't consider it a pit
21:43:21 <Vorpal> it is the void
21:43:22 <oklofok> so without any assumptions on the rule, is it true that, for each patterns P and block Q, where P is an identicle, there exists a constant k such that for all configurations C with P in the middle, Q is filled with 0 from T^k onwards? i don't think the function from configurations to "first everzeroings" is continuous, but it still seems like this should be true
21:43:40 <oklofok> *is necessarily continuous
21:43:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, this pit ends up above the cobble-water barrier next to the minecart tracks
21:44:01 <oklofok> *pattern
21:44:29 <elliott> pikhq: How to set a timezone in kitten: "echo CST6CDT >/etc/tz".
21:44:58 <elliott> pikhq: Although you should probably also add "export TZ=CST6DT" to /etc/profile to avoid file accesses.
21:45:07 <elliott> pikhq: In fact, I'll probably add "export TZ=$(cat /etc/tz)" to /etc/profile.
21:45:09 <Vorpal> heh it goes up to surface too
21:45:18 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:45:39 <oklofok> hmm i guess there's still a direct compactness argument
21:45:48 <oklofok> erm
21:47:17 <oklofok> or not, i'm too tired
21:49:05 <elliott> Vorpal: BTW, cfunge will get bug reports if it doesn't run on Kitten.
21:49:15 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
21:49:19 <Vorpal> elliott, okay?
21:49:22 * elliott removes xattr support.
21:49:31 <elliott> Vorpal: So be prepared to support Linux/x86-64/pcc/uClibc :)
21:49:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I depend on POSIX 2001
21:49:53 <Vorpal> elliott, + XSI
21:49:58 <Vorpal> if you don't do that then fuck you
21:50:07 <elliott> Vorpal: I do include XSI functions.
21:50:13 <elliott> I don't know how 2001y uClibc is but it should be good.
21:50:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Math functions are slightly lacking but I doubt you use the full extent of POSIX math.
21:50:48 <Vorpal> elliott, I use sinl and such
21:50:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Those are of course included.
21:51:04 <elliott> Vorpal: I somehow doubt cfunge will work with pcc, though.
21:51:14 <Vorpal> elliott, also mmap extension
21:51:22 -!- poiuy_qwert has left (?).
21:51:31 <Vorpal> elliott, it works with gcc, icc and clang. tcc except that tcc had somewhat limited C99
21:51:36 <Vorpal> pcc I never tried
21:51:37 <elliott> http://www.noradsanta.org/js/data.js NORAD have leaked Santa Clause's Christmas flight path!! Somebody submit this to Wikileaks!
21:52:51 <Vorpal> elliott, whaat?
21:52:53 <Vorpal> are you
21:52:54 <Vorpal> talking
21:52:56 <Vorpal> about
21:53:23 <elliott> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NORAD_Tracks_Santa
21:53:51 <elliott> [[According to NORAD's official web page on the NORAD Tracks Santa program, the service began on December 24, 1955. A Sears department store placed an advertisement in a Colorado Springs newspaper. The advertisement told children that they could telephone Santa Claus and included a number for them to call. However, the telephone number printed was incorrect and calls instead came through to Colorado Spring's Continental Air Defense Command (CONAD
21:53:51 <elliott> ) Center. Colonel Shoup, who was on duty that night, told his staff to give all children that called in a "current location" for Santa Claus. A tradition began which continued when the North American Aerospace Defence Command (NORAD) replaced CONAD in 1958]]
21:53:57 <elliott> MOST AWESOME ORIGIN STORY *EVER*
21:54:11 <elliott> Hey! "Many volunteers are employees at Cheyenne Mountain and Peterson Air Force Base."
21:54:20 <elliott> I wonder if Daniel Jackson is there, or has he gone and ascended again?
21:55:17 <elliott> pikhq: Should I bother supporting locales? I know, I know, I'm a bad person if I don't...
21:56:08 <pikhq> elliott: 他の言語があるぜ。
21:56:24 <elliott> pikhq: Supporting locales != supporting other languages
21:56:42 <elliott> pikhq: Supporting locales == supporting output and UI text in other languages even though there are a ton of untranslated programs /anyway/
21:56:50 <elliott> I doubt, for instance, BusyBox has many transaltions.
21:56:53 <elliott> *translations.
21:57:08 <Mathnerd314> elliott: I did that last year... stayed up until midnight answering phone calls :-)
21:57:18 <pikhq> Support locales so that it's possible and/or easy to actually *do* translations.
21:57:25 <elliott> Mathnerd314: awesome :)
21:57:38 <elliott> pikhq: But, but, it bloats things up!
21:57:39 <pikhq> Without locale support you literally have no choice in the matter.
21:57:55 <elliott> pikhq: Also, not true; pretty sure you can statically select a gettext translation at compile-time to be the default.
21:58:17 <pikhq> elliott: Your precious metric system is only supported via locales.
21:58:42 <elliott> pikhq: Either what you're saying is true but irrelevant or trivially false...
21:59:23 <pikhq> Programs that display units will look at the locale for which units to use.
21:59:23 <fizzie> Date formatting! Different decimal point separators! Proper sorting order for alphabets! It's not just translations.
21:59:42 <pikhq> And, like most everything else, default to US standard.
22:00:52 <elliott> fizzie: You'd say that; you're a Finn.
22:00:52 <Vorpal> PH: why quit?
22:00:55 <elliott> Fine, fine, locales.
22:01:03 <elliott> pikhq: BUT I WARN YOU THAT THE CTYPE.H FUNCTIONS WON'T USE TABLES
22:01:06 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: but how does it work if it's distributed? you don't want some Chinese server giving you results in Chinese if you live in France
22:01:21 <elliott> Be aware that enabling │
22:01:21 <elliott> │ this option will make uClibc much larger.
22:01:25 <elliott> Ughhh... locales.
22:01:28 <elliott> │ Enabling UCLIBC_HAS_LOCALE with the default set of supported locales │
22:01:28 <elliott> │ (169 UTF-8 locales, and 144 locales for other codesets) will enlarge │
22:01:28 <elliott> │ uClibc by around 300k. You can reduce this size by building your own │
22:01:28 <elliott> │ custom set of locate data (see extra/locale/LOCALES for details). │
22:01:28 <Vorpal> elliott, then it will not be locale-aware
22:01:33 <elliott> pikhq: 300k!!!
22:01:35 <Vorpal> elliott, no locales: I won't use kitten ever
22:01:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Don't worry, I really don't care if you use it or not. But I probably am including locales.
22:01:47 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: It's based on the locale environment variables.
22:01:57 <elliott> pikhq: I wonder how much of that 300k is included in a typical program?
22:02:06 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, and it'll default to USD for currency!
22:02:18 <elliott> pikhq: If you can't write a simple program and get a 10K executable or less it's broken.
22:02:19 <pikhq> elliott: And our MM/DD/YY date display!
22:02:23 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq: I wonder how much of that 300k is included in a typical program?
22:02:57 <pikhq> Very little of that should be included...
22:03:30 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: but what happens if it's a long-running daemon? changing the environment variables will have no effect.
22:03:52 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: And?
22:04:07 <Mathnerd314> so you'll still get results in Chinese
22:04:57 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: ... Yes...
22:05:07 <elliott> Mathnerd314 does not quite understand, methinks.
22:07:28 <elliott> pikhq: Ugh. I don't really want to include every single locale; list all the languages that matter. :p
22:07:40 <elliott> pikhq: (The one advantage of dynamic linking: I could just build a uClibc based on whatever locales the user wants.)
22:07:42 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: so... there seems to be no way for pain-free locale support
22:08:01 <elliott> Mathnerd314: you do realise it's implemented in just about every existing linux system?
22:08:05 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: You seem not to understand what locales do.
22:08:07 <elliott> Mathnerd314: and your complaint about servers makes no sense?
22:08:42 <Mathnerd314> ok... my complaint is that you can't change the locale while a program is running
22:09:13 <elliott> Mathnerd314: why is that an issue?
22:09:29 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Better than Windows, which doesn't allow changing the locales without *rebooting*.
22:09:32 <pikhq> (to this day)
22:09:43 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Servers shouldn't care what locale you're using.
22:09:49 <elliott> It only matters for normal programs and client programs.
22:09:56 <Mathnerd314> elliott: it's an issue because programs never stop
22:10:02 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Servers shouldn't care what locale you're using.
22:10:34 <Sgeo> The only bad thing about Newspeak that I see is its lack of libraries at the moment
22:10:49 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Anyway, if somehow you really want to change, say, the language that server logs are written in, and it is ABSOLUTELY VITAL that the server NEVER, EVER go down, not even for a second, then just support setting the locale as part of the server's control console.
22:10:51 <elliott> But that's very rare.
22:10:54 <Sgeo> And all the features still not implemented or fully designed
22:10:55 <Mathnerd314> elliott: on my home PC, I have had uptimes of months
22:11:11 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Which, of course, you do not need, being that it is a home PC.
22:11:29 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: And how often do you want your program to switch from French to Chinese UI and back?
22:11:31 <elliott> pikhq: Will you hate me if I only build in a subset of locales?
22:11:34 <elliott> <pikhq> Mathnerd314: And how often do you want your program to switch from French to Chinese UI and back?
22:11:37 <elliott> not even relevant, we're talking servers here
22:11:54 <pikhq> elliott: Test the effects of having all the locales first?
22:11:58 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:12:02 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: fairly often; I try to learn new languages
22:12:11 <elliott> Mathnerd314: We're talking about servers.
22:12:12 -!- mtve has joined.
22:12:22 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Please tell me why you would want to change a server's language while it's running.
22:12:26 <elliott> hi mtve! haven't seen you for... ages
22:14:06 <Mathnerd314> elliott: because I do, OK?
22:14:20 <elliott> Mathnerd314: that is not a valid complaint
22:14:32 <elliott> Mathnerd314: you have yet to show why that is even vaguely desirable; i suspect you do not understand what locales are used for
22:14:49 <elliott> in what use-case would you want to change the locale of a server process? what would you hope to accomplish by doing so?
22:15:00 <Mathnerd314> elliott: programs should support features, and this is a feature. it doesn't matter if nobody uses it.
22:15:18 <elliott> Mathnerd314: wait, let me check --
22:15:29 <elliott> Mathnerd314: do you think every program should support every feature possible, regardless of whether it is even vaguely useful?
22:15:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Mathnerd314, zuh?
22:15:39 <elliott> Mathnerd314: If so, you're a complete and utter moron, stop wasting my time.
22:15:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, want some more cobble?
22:16:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I can put some in that chest
22:16:08 <Mathnerd314> elliott: I think that it should be able to.
22:16:20 <elliott> <elliott> Mathnerd314: do you think every program should support every feature possible, regardless of whether it is even vaguely useful?
22:16:23 <elliott> Mathnerd314: please answer this question
22:16:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I have plenty.
22:16:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah okay
22:17:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if you want a cobblestone generator I can build one, but I need your help since /home no longer works
22:17:19 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Yes or no?
22:17:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so one person must keep door to castle of doom open while the other fetch lava
22:17:33 <Mathnerd314> elliott: at any given time, a program will not support all possible features. but somebody should be able to support it in an extensible manner.
22:17:46 <Mathnerd314> s/it/a given feature/
22:17:47 <elliott> Mathnerd314: OK, but that is not an actual yes or no answer to my question.
22:17:50 <elliott> I said should, not will.
22:18:37 <Mathnerd314> I'd have to say yes. but one particular feature it should support is removing features.
22:18:50 <elliott> Mathnerd314: You sound suspiciously like zzo38.
22:18:59 <elliott> Mathnerd314: But hey, take heart -- you could, one day, be a GNU coreutils maintainer.
22:19:09 <elliott> They like your sort, and this is evidenced by the man page for ls(1).
22:20:37 <Vorpal> elliott, does busybox ls colour code the output?
22:20:44 <Vorpal> elliott, if not: oh well, won't use it
22:20:47 <Mathnerd314> elliott: but once it supports enough features, it might as well be an operating system
22:21:16 <elliott> Vorpal: yes with --color=auto, presumably some env variable could make this default
22:21:46 <Vorpal> elliott, alias ls='ls --color=auto'
22:21:49 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway you have to realise that I *really* don't give a shit whether you use Kitten or not; I will provide support if you do and mock you mercilessly if you run into problems Kitten doesn't have, but fundamentally you can use whatever you like, and if one of your requirements conflicts with one of my requirements, mine take priority.
22:21:52 <Vorpal> or a function wrapper
22:23:16 <Vorpal> elliott, that mocking would be annoying. I assume you can turn that off
22:23:41 <elliott> Vorpal: It's the risk everyone takes by not using Kitten.
22:24:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, and anyone who tells me that they'd "use Kitten, if only it had a proper installer rather than a guide to partitioning and installing the basic packages using a host Linux system" will get, I don't know, IP-banned from the package repository or something.
22:24:22 <elliott> (Or just mocked. Mercilessly.)
22:24:40 <elliott> (Note: I totally will make an installation program, I just don't want to be bugged about making one.)
22:25:01 <Vorpal> elliott, well I done gentoo. And LFS. I'm no stranger to lack of installers
22:25:12 <Vorpal> elliott, heck I even done cross-lfs
22:25:21 <Vorpal> elliott, not canadian-cross lfs though
22:25:24 <Vorpal> I would hate that
22:25:38 <elliott> It shouldn't be very painful, anyway; due to static linking, all you really have to do is manually unpack the package manager and its dependencies, tell the package manager to install everything, and edit a few config files.
22:25:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Canadian-cross LFS. Oh man. Has anyone done that?
22:25:49 <elliott> That sounds amazing.
22:26:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't know if it CAN be done even
22:27:16 <elliott> Hey, I just realised that there's probably no TZ value that uClibc supports that handles automatic DST. Heh.
22:27:21 <elliott> "Oh well; file under solve later."
22:27:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I assume it will support software RAID?
22:27:36 <Vorpal> elliott, it can't read zoneinfo files?
22:28:01 <pikhq> elliott: So, should be only about as hard as installing Debian via debootstrap.
22:28:42 <pikhq> (which I have totally done before.)
22:29:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I figured out a way to get lava without going into temple of doom
22:30:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, yaaaaay.
22:30:42 <Vorpal> I refuse to tell anyone since the admin would fix it
22:30:47 <Vorpal> if he knew what I was doing
22:30:56 <elliott> No he wouldn't.
22:31:12 <elliott> What is it?
22:31:18 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, I assume it will support software RAID?
22:31:24 <elliott> Uh, if it works then yes. Otherwise no.
22:31:27 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, it can't read zoneinfo files?
22:31:33 <elliott> No; it has no /etc/timezone.
22:31:52 <elliott> You put a string like CST6CDT in /etc/tz and /etc/profile sets TZ to that.
22:32:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, where do you want the generator?
22:32:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm. Bottom of the hull.
22:32:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, where in it
22:32:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and which model?
22:33:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, fizzie made another one
22:33:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, whichever has the greatest output.
22:33:44 <pikhq> elliott: You'll have to recompile the distro next time some country decides to fuck with their time zones.
22:33:59 <pikhq> elliott: And countries are positively in *love* with the idea. Fuckers.
22:34:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, unknown as of currently
22:34:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: fizzie's leaves you with ghosts of yourself in the pool.
22:34:30 <elliott> Vorpal's is safer too.
22:34:39 <elliott> pikhq: Well, it's not even something I can configure. Anyway, "CST6CDT" implies to me that you can put offsets there.
22:34:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal's then.
22:34:54 <pikhq> (yet another reason that the time zone EVERYWHERE should be a rounded-to-the-hour approximation of the offset from GMT!)
22:35:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, mine is the largest one
22:35:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I doubt that ghost was related to the issue in any way
22:35:16 <Vorpal> err
22:35:21 <Vorpal> to the generator that was
22:35:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, hardly a shortage of space in the ROU,
22:35:33 <pikhq> (NOBODY gets to fuck with their time zones!)
22:35:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Build it in the air if it's somehow too large for the bottom of the hull.
22:35:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, where in the bottom of the hull?
22:36:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, near the column at the centre.
22:36:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it will almost the whole width
22:36:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, of the base layer
22:36:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, all but two colums if you put it along a side
22:36:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, that's OK.
22:36:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Seriously.
22:36:56 <Vorpal> in the middle just one column
22:37:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, lag atm...
22:37:24 <Vorpal> can't do a thing
22:37:44 <Vorpal> timed out
22:37:47 <elliott> I just jumped down the Temple of Doom's lava and survived all the way. :p
22:37:58 <Vorpal> elliott, did you crash the server or something?
22:38:06 <elliott> No.
22:38:07 <Vorpal> oh no it is just lagged to hell
22:38:53 -!- Sasha2 has joined.
22:39:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it needs to go down 1 into the floor, I have to raise the thing I realised
22:39:12 <elliott> │ Set this to compile all sources at once into an object (IMA). │
22:39:12 <elliott> │ This mode of compilation uses alot of memory but may produce │
22:39:12 <elliott> │ smaller binaries. │
22:39:15 <elliott> pikhq: Am I crazy enough?
22:40:06 -!- Sasha2_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:40:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, even better, build it in the air somewhere and connect it to the axes.
22:40:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, gah already got quite far
22:41:02 <pikhq> elliott: Awesomeness.
22:41:16 <elliott> │ Note that you need a very recent GCC for this to work, like │
22:41:17 <elliott> │ gcc >= 4.3 plus eventually some patches. │
22:41:18 <elliott> pikhq: I'm scared.
22:41:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, OK, put it there.
22:41:21 <pikhq> elliott: You want that option. It is awesomeness.
22:41:29 <elliott> pikhq: But I want to build this with pcc eventually! :-)
22:41:36 <elliott> But FINE.
22:41:53 <elliott> make: *** [extra/locale/c8tables.h] Error 1
22:41:54 <elliott> What.
22:41:58 <elliott> GEN extra/locale/c8tables.h
22:41:58 <elliott> make: *** [extra/locale/c8tables.h] Error 1
22:42:08 <elliott> could not find a UTF8 locale ... please enable en_US.UTF-8
22:42:09 <elliott> What.
22:43:46 -!- oklopol has joined.
22:44:44 -!- Sasha2_ has joined.
22:45:41 -!- oklofok has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:46:34 -!- Sasha2 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:49:33 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, so wait, you've still not moved past The Story So Far in Fine Structure?
22:49:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: indeed
22:49:59 <Phantom_Hoover> DO SO
22:50:11 <Sasha2_> augh
22:50:18 <Sasha2_> quit using the cordless phone, parents
22:50:25 <Sasha2_> it knocks out the wireless signal
22:52:50 <oklopol> what's a cordless phone
22:52:54 <oklopol> is it a cellphone
22:53:01 <Sasha2_> no
22:53:08 <Sasha2_> it's a phone without a cord
22:53:10 <Sasha2_> landline
22:53:11 <oklopol> yeah yeah i know what it yes
22:53:30 <oklopol> *is
22:53:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Sasha2_, what idiot designed that?
22:54:39 <Sasha2_> Phantom_Hoover: No idea
22:54:54 -!- Sasha2_ has changed nick to SashaPrime.
22:55:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Find them and screw with their wifi.
22:55:18 <SashaPrime> hah
22:55:27 <SashaPrime> they use 2.4 GHz
22:55:27 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, ARE YOU READING IT NOW
22:55:30 <elliott> no
22:56:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it is done
22:57:16 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, YOU SHOULD BE
22:57:31 -!- SashaPrime has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:57:51 -!- Sasha2 has joined.
22:58:38 <pikhq> It takes an astounding moron to make a cordless phone that hogs the 2.4 GHz space like that.
22:58:51 <Sasha2> yeah
22:58:51 <pikhq> "But what person would ever want two cordless phones?"
22:58:59 <Sasha2> spams the spectrum with noise
22:59:05 <Sasha2> We've got like 6
22:59:29 <Sasha2> one for each room
22:59:41 <Sasha2> even though they haven't got a cord to keep them in that room
22:59:48 <Sasha2> they gravitate towards the sofa
23:00:54 <pikhq> ... One for each room?
23:00:57 <pikhq> Your parents are morons.
23:01:13 <Sasha2> yep
23:01:28 <Sasha2> well, my phone, the one by this computer, is corded
23:01:30 <Sasha2> I built ot
23:01:33 <Sasha2> it*
23:01:57 <Sasha2> and then modified it
23:02:18 <Sasha2> it flashes instead of rings, no screen, uses tone-dialing, and has a mute switch.
23:02:39 <pikhq> *sigh*
23:02:54 <pikhq> The entire POTS is such a freaking archaic joke.
23:02:58 <pikhq> As is the cell network.
23:03:04 <pikhq> And the cable system.
23:03:09 <Sasha2> yep
23:03:10 <pikhq> And analog radio.
23:03:23 <Sasha2> totally keeping this phone though
23:03:36 <Sasha2> it plugs into the phone jack and sits there
23:03:45 <pikhq> In fact, every single telecom system that's not an Internet link is just awful.
23:03:53 <Sasha2> I don't really want a cell phone
23:03:59 <Sasha2> they're annoying
23:04:28 <pikhq> Maintain several completely distinct high-bandwidth telecommunication systems? Such a stupid idea.
23:08:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:11:29 * pikhq imagines a world where the entire radio spectrum is in use for Internet. And is ecstatic.
23:13:34 <elliott> brb.
23:14:44 * Sasha2 imagines an alien race that sees that spectrum wiping us out because of light pollution
23:15:08 <pikhq> Sasha2: Eh, we'd already be fucked.
23:15:17 <pikhq> Pretty much every chunk of spectrum that can be used, is used.
23:15:21 <Sasha2> exactly
23:25:24 <quintopia> thank goodness for dark sky communities...and eventually orbital telescope arrays
23:27:53 <Vorpal> ineiros, gah
23:29:11 -!- perdito has joined.
23:29:58 -!- kresnicka has joined.
23:30:25 -!- Goosey has joined.
23:37:22 -!- kresnicka has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:44:11 <elliott> <quintopia> thank goodness for dark sky communities...and eventually orbital telescope arrays
23:44:14 <elliott> i value internet more than the former
23:44:24 <elliott> even though that barely makes any sense
23:44:27 <elliott> your message didn't anyway
23:48:57 <elliott> [[The worldwide Haskell community met up over beers today to celebrate their unprecedented discovery of an industry programmer who gives a shit about Haskell.
23:48:57 <elliott> On Wednesday, researchers issued a press release revealing that 27-year-old Seth Briars of North Carolina, a Java programmer at Blackwater accounting firm Ross and Fordham, actually gives a shit about Haskell.]]
23:48:58 <elliott> --http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2010/12/haskell-researchers-announce-discovery.html
23:51:11 <Sgeo> It is, of course, physically impossible to Google for criticism of Newspeak
23:51:22 <elliott> [["I'm kind of surprised I'm the only person on earth who gives a shit about it," Briars continued. "I'd have thought there would be more people following the press releases closely and then not using Haskell. But they all just skip the press releases and go straight to the not using it part."]]
23:54:23 -!- Quadrescence has joined.
23:56:48 <Deewiant> [[I'm really disappointed that more programmers don't get actively involved in reading endless threads about how to subvert Haskell's type system to accomplish basic shit you can do in other languages.]]
23:57:15 * Sgeo learns of Ioke
23:58:56 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:59:24 -!- wareya has joined.
2010-12-02
00:01:18 <quintopia> elliott: Sasha2 was implying that the light pollution from our spectral wipe-out would prevent us from spotting incoming aliens. dark sky communities allow us to at least spot them on the visible spectrum at night.
00:01:34 <elliott> i don't think he was implying that we couldn't see them
00:01:36 <elliott> * Sasha2 imagines an alien race that sees that spectrum wiping us out because of light pollution
00:01:39 <elliott> just that they'd wipe us out.
00:02:42 <Sasha2> no, I was implying that if an alien race could see them
00:02:49 <Sasha2> they may attempt to explode us
00:02:53 <Sasha2> for light pollution
00:06:53 <elliott> right.
00:06:57 <elliott> so not that we couldn't see them.
00:08:17 * Sgeo likes the thought of GTK+ or Qt being an option in a program
00:08:27 <Sgeo> Just set this preference, the program switches
00:09:31 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:12:33 <Vorpal> elliott, down?
00:12:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Seems so.
00:12:48 <elliott> Sgeo: that is the stupidest thing ever
00:12:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I was falling in a boat while it happened
00:12:54 <elliott> Vorpal: "Well, I won't rent whole layers, most likely. Do you have any idea how big 128x128 is?"
00:13:01 <Vorpal> elliott, result: flying dutchman
00:13:03 <elliott> :D
00:13:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no fucking clue what will happen when I reconnect
00:13:26 <Vorpal> elliott, probably loss of boat at the very least
00:13:31 <elliott> Vorpal: The bottom few floors will be obsidian-bordered (eventually) and be for a post-apocalyptic scenario; supplies and such to build the world outside. After all, where is more secure than in the sea, bordered by obsidian, at the very bottom of the map, with bedrock?
00:13:36 <Vorpal> elliott, and I answered "yes"
00:13:56 <elliott> Vorpal: The top floor will be... I don't know, something snazzy. Indeed, though, floor 0 will be fun.
00:14:10 <Vorpal> elliott, also my mines cover more than 128x128x2 considering amount of cobblestone
00:14:25 <elliott> Although you'll enter it from the regular sea-level ground at floor -(small); there'll be a tunnel with stairs going just below sea level, and then a short walk to a hole in a low-numbered below-sea floor.
00:14:28 <elliott> Then you can go up if you wish.
00:14:39 <elliott> There will also be a lower-down minecart startion, and a skyway connection higher up.
00:15:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I'll probably establish an embassy there if it ever gets done
00:15:40 <Vorpal> elliott, also up again
00:16:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Do you know how big the grid of large chests are?
00:16:10 <elliott> Is it 2x the grid of small chests? (And what's that?)
00:16:16 <elliott> You see, I need to store 81 thousand pieces of something...
00:16:17 <Vorpal> elliott, 2x yes
00:16:19 <Vorpal> elliott, and not sure
00:16:53 <Vorpal> elliott, you need a boatlevator in that thing from top to bottom
00:17:18 <Vorpal> elliott, measurements: 2x3 shaft, and 5 spaces away a 2x2 shaft
00:17:23 <elliott> Vorpal: I was planning on just having a straight staircase that makes you turn around whenever it reaches a wall, and a multi-width ladder all the way.
00:17:25 <Vorpal> elliott, some extra space needed at bottom
00:17:29 <elliott> Boatlevators seem... unreliable.
00:17:37 <Vorpal> elliott, they are faster, and quite reliable for me.
00:17:47 <Vorpal> elliott, it is just everyone else that can't ride mine
00:18:00 <elliott> So they're hard to use. :p
00:18:02 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess they are trying to stear the boat or something
00:18:06 <Vorpal> which is just very very wrong
00:18:09 <Vorpal> never stear the boat
00:18:13 <Vorpal> and exit behind it
00:18:25 <elliott> It's hard to avoid steering it...
00:18:34 <Vorpal> elliott, do not touch arrow keys
00:18:36 <Vorpal> while in the boat
00:18:42 <Vorpal> elliott, that way you don't stear it
00:18:45 <Vorpal> steer*
00:18:55 <Vorpal> err
00:18:57 <Vorpal> wasd
00:18:58 <Vorpal> not arrows
00:20:19 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:23:06 <elliott> ineiros: Can I have a /tp ehird BCxVAhxWQxi?
00:26:05 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:26:23 <nooga> i'm weird
00:38:07 -!- augur has joined.
00:47:25 <Sgeo> Oh look, I just fixed a broken test case in Newspeak
00:47:34 <Sgeo> This is fun!
00:48:46 * Sgeo hits whoever wrote these tests for using ~=
00:53:06 -!- Leonidas has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:54:33 <elliott> Vorpal: "Additionally, when Water is placed inside a "+" shaped pillar, the player can still interact with the water through the northwest indent of the "+". This allows a pillar of water to act as an elevator much quicker than a descending waterfall, as the downward motion of the water inside the pillar has no effect. The ascension rate is comparable to ladders at a lower cost, as one only needs a bucket and some building material. It is interes
00:54:33 <elliott> ting to note that if a block is removed from the pillar, exposing the water, the downward pull will slow the player's ascent for the next few blocks."
00:55:01 <Vorpal> elliott, huh
00:55:24 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm still not sure where to place The Cube.
00:55:29 <Vorpal> elliott, issue with that however is that you will be inside the water
00:55:35 <Vorpal> elliott, not partly inside it
00:57:21 <Vorpal> elliott, down?
00:58:13 <elliott> seems so
00:58:23 <pikhq> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXW0bx_Ooq4
01:00:20 <elliott> pikhq: I love that video.
01:00:55 <pikhq> I love that Chrysler actually made that video.
01:01:31 <Vorpal> elliott, up but I disconnected
01:03:14 <Vorpal> <pikhq> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXW0bx_Ooq4 <-- what, that is so much jargon I have no clue about
01:03:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, is it technobabel?
01:03:30 <Sgeo> There are four languages in the current Newspeak prototype
01:03:34 <Vorpal> technobable*
01:03:43 <elliott> Vorpal: No, it's technology.
01:03:44 <elliott> Duh.
01:03:45 <elliott> Simple stuff.
01:03:49 <elliott> It's a turbo encabulator.
01:04:02 <Vorpal> elliott, I never heard of that :P
01:04:42 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yeah, it's a turboëncabulator. It supplies inverse reactive current for use in unilateral phase detractors, and automatically synchronises cardinal grammeters.
01:04:49 <Sgeo> Subclasses of Language:
01:05:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, indeed pure technobabel
01:05:11 <Sgeo> NewsqueakLanguage0 NewsqueakLanguage1 NewsqueakLanguage2 SmalltalkLanguage
01:05:44 <elliott> Sgeo: Stop looking at Newspeak right now; close every relevant window.
01:05:45 <elliott> Thank you.
01:05:50 <Sgeo> elliott, why?
01:06:22 <elliott> Sgeo: Because I said so.
01:06:41 <Sgeo> elliott, besides the youngness, is there a good reason not to like Newspeak?
01:06:57 <elliott> Because I said so.
01:07:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway it became blatantly apparent during the diagnosis part that it was a joke
01:07:50 -!- Leonidas_ has joined.
01:07:59 <pikhq> Vorpal: The bit about running additional tests that serve to increase billable hours is a dead giveaway, isn't it?
01:07:59 -!- Leonidas_ has changed nick to Leonidas.
01:09:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, that and some other things
01:09:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, such as "for the purposes of obscurity we have removed the casing"
01:10:43 <Vorpal> pikhq, or the bit that any systems faults would be displayed in secret code
01:11:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, also "manual and songbook"
01:11:38 <Vorpal> also that a Geiger scale would be involved :P
01:12:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, and further the bit about what would be covered in the next month :P
01:13:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:13:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, but the first part I could only catch because I realised that was too much jargon :P
01:13:23 * Sgeo ponders a possible fix for a certain annoyance
01:16:00 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
01:17:20 <pikhq> Vorpal: Hint: the jargon is meaningless.
01:17:53 <Vorpal> pikhq, indeed I realise that
01:18:08 <pikhq> Also, "dingle arm" is an inherently hilarious phrase.
01:18:21 <Vorpal> pikhq, but I'm no car expert so it took me a a few tens of of seconds to figure out what was going on :P
01:21:01 <elliott> i know nothing about cars but it's obvious
01:21:02 <elliott> bye
01:21:03 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
01:26:51 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:28:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, I remember reading about a Swedish company that manufactured screws got strange results on a 1 April joke ad
01:28:31 * Sgeo wikiwalks in Newspeak
01:29:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, basically they made an ad for stuff like T-shaped screws and dual-head screws for extra torque. On 1 April one year during the 1970s or so
01:29:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, they actually got phoned by people who tried to seriously order these "products"
01:29:43 <Vorpal> for a few days after
01:30:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, fun eh?
01:30:22 <Gregor> Both T-shaped and double-headed screws have legitimate uses, and the former most certainly exists.
01:32:11 <Vorpal> Gregor, not the way these were done :P
01:32:32 <Vorpal> Gregor, it was like a screw that split into two part way up like an actual T
01:32:43 <Gregor> Okidoke :P
01:32:54 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:32:55 <Gregor> Ah :P
01:33:05 <Vorpal> Gregor, and the dual head one looked like:
01:33:06 <Vorpal> - -
01:33:07 <Vorpal> | |
01:33:07 <Vorpal> -+-
01:33:07 <Vorpal> |
01:33:14 <Vorpal> (best viewed with mono-space)
01:33:26 <Vorpal> and I don't think that would work
01:34:02 <Vorpal> Gregor, also I believe they had a flexible screw. and a few more that I don't remember
01:34:08 <Gregor> Hyuk
01:34:14 <Vorpal> Gregor, "hyuk"?
01:34:19 <Gregor> Yup.
01:34:24 <Vorpal> what does that mean
01:34:30 <Gregor> It means "hyuk"
01:34:34 <Vorpal> uh
01:34:43 <Vorpal> Gregor, and can you explain what "hyuk" means
01:35:01 <Gregor> "Hyuk" is a folksy laugh :P
01:35:02 <Vorpal> Gregor, or was "yup" the translation?
01:35:05 <Vorpal> ah
01:35:06 <Vorpal> okay
01:35:45 <Vorpal> Gregor, anyway what would a "real" t-shaped screw be?
01:36:03 <Gregor> Just a screw with a T-shaped end opposite the screw proper.
01:36:22 <Vorpal> Gregor, oh you mean the shape that the screwdriver fits into?
01:36:23 <Vorpal> right
01:36:41 <Vorpal> Gregor, well this was indeed... More literal
02:04:19 -!- cal153 has joined.
02:08:30 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
02:14:26 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
02:15:02 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
02:27:37 -!- mtve has joined.
02:36:41 <Goosey> Is it bad to have fun with trolling?
02:49:27 -!- elliott has joined.
02:49:56 <elliott> Insomnia...
02:50:53 <elliott> Vorpal: how did nailor do his underwater thing?
02:53:44 <elliott> coppro: "On behalf of Google and the University of Waterloo Computer Science Club, we would like to thank everybody who took part in the Google AI Challenge."
02:53:54 <elliott> oh wait, it's your challenge
02:53:54 <elliott> heh
03:00:29 -!- perdito has quit (Quit: perdito).
03:09:06 -!- perdito has joined.
03:09:36 * Sgeo submits a bug report
03:22:24 <elliott> http://iphone-chieftain.blogspot.com/2009/04/tweetsheet-10-released.html twitter client implemented in excel
03:29:31 <Gregor> elliott: Welp, time to kill myself.
03:29:41 <elliott> Gregor: what
03:29:59 <Gregor> elliott: Twitter in excel = time to end it all
03:30:09 <elliott> Gregor: no this is like a new age in human existence
03:30:26 <elliott> 10:38:14 <elliott> Gregor: 14:53:14 * GregorR-W doesn't even know what tldr means :P
03:30:26 <elliott> 10:38:14 <elliott> 14:53:51 <kipple> heh, I had to look that one up too
03:30:26 <elliott> 10:38:14 <elliott> 14:54:36 <GregorR-W> Too Long Didn't Read?
03:30:26 <elliott> 10:38:14 <elliott> 14:54:38 <GregorR-W> XD
03:30:27 <Gregor> elliott: Yes. The time without me.
03:30:33 <elliott> Gregor: are you ashamed of 2006 you
03:30:34 <elliott> i would be
03:30:40 <elliott> bet he didn't even like dinosaur comics
03:31:11 <Gregor> Clearly he liked reading.
03:31:20 <Gregor> Since he didn't understand what it was for something to be too long to read.
03:31:26 <Gregor> Therefore, he probably liked Dinosaur Comics.
03:31:33 <Gregor> But then, we'll never know; he's dead now.
03:31:36 <elliott> Gregor: dude you blew my mind.
03:31:43 <elliott> Gregor: well um, you recommended hextris in 2006
03:31:47 <elliott> and that's why my brain exploded
03:31:47 <elliott> so
03:31:49 <elliott> i blame you
03:31:55 <elliott> 09:06:37 <elliott> 23:49:05 <GregorR> I love how devfs survived for like a year :-P
03:31:55 <elliott> 09:06:37 <elliott> 23:49:34 <calamari> yeah, what was wrong with it? worked for me
03:31:55 <elliott> 09:06:37 <elliott> 23:50:04 <GregorR> I really don't know.
03:31:55 <elliott> 09:06:37 <elliott> 23:50:08 <GregorR> Always worked great for me.
03:32:10 <elliott> Gregor: we can clearly see here your ignorance of linux kernel maintenance practices
03:32:23 <Gregor> I'm still ignorant of Linux kernel maintenance practices.
03:32:25 <elliott> Gregor: namely, that any system replacing another system is accepted IFF it is more pointlessly flexible and complex
03:32:27 <Gregor> Quite intentionally.
03:32:38 <elliott> Gregor: and that putting XML into the kernel is never a bad thing (see HAL)
03:32:48 <elliott> Gregor: those are the entire set of rules, actually
03:32:50 <elliott> Gregor: wait, there's one more
03:32:56 <Gregor> elliott: IIRC, there was a time between devfs and udev when it was back to flat /dev.
03:32:58 <elliott> Gregor: nobody must do *anything* to make the experience nicer for desktop users
03:33:15 <elliott> because... because fuck you, we don't want the day of the linux desktop
03:33:21 <elliott> Gregor: heh, static dev?
03:33:26 <elliott> oldskoooool
03:33:45 <Gregor> Thereby invalidating your point ...
03:33:56 <elliott> Gregor: no, a mere historical anomaly
03:34:01 <elliott> just average the slope out, man
03:34:02 <elliott> Gregor: devfs is back in the kernel now, it's called devtmpfs, it runs on tmpfs, and they snuck it in by saying it provides an environment for an initramfs before udev is loaded
03:34:10 <elliott> Gregor: i fully intend to use it and nothing else in Kitten :)
03:34:18 <Gregor> lollercopters
03:34:34 <elliott> Gregor: the reactions were varied
03:34:36 <elliott> "Lol, devfs." --Andrew Morton
03:34:41 <elliott> and uh
03:34:44 <elliott> "Lol, devfs." --Andrew Morton again
03:34:50 <elliott> (actual direct quote, although he only said it once)
03:35:10 <elliott> Gregor: have you ever looked at /etc/udev
03:35:11 <elliott> it is quite a sight
03:35:46 <elliott> Gregor: Found a non-GNU binutils yet? :P
03:36:26 <Gregor> elliott: Haven't even looked :P
03:36:51 <elliott> Gregor: looks like i will be using uClibc anyway, so that's a vaguely gnu-infested (some code copied from glibc) component
03:37:08 <elliott> Gregor: and, well, i do have to use gcc to compile kernel and uClibc itself
03:37:15 <elliott> but i should be able to use pcc for most other things
03:37:16 <Gregor> elliott: Yeahyeah, I get it, you lurve blowing the Gnu.
03:37:24 <elliott> Gregor: i dont man its a hard fuckin life
03:37:31 <Gregor> X-D
03:37:42 <elliott> Gregor: i did get a pcc/dietlibc toolchain fully self-bootstrapped, but dietlibc is probably too opinionated with anything :P
03:37:56 <elliott> erm
03:37:58 <elliott> Gregor: i did get a pcc/dietlibc toolchain fully self-bootstrapped, but dietlibc is probably too opinionated to use with with anything :P
03:38:00 <elliott> *with
03:39:07 <elliott> Gregor: i mean... patches welcome y'all
03:39:23 <elliott> Gregor: I seem to have found a coreutils in busybox, even if busybox has bits of lameness
03:40:35 <elliott> Gregor: man if you want a non-gnu linux you're gonna have to work for it that involves TALKIN man
03:40:54 <Gregor> I don't want one, I just want to see one :P
03:40:55 <elliott> or do you want to let linux distros fellate rms UNTIL THE END OF TIME????
03:40:59 <elliott> Gregor: see one, yes, but
03:41:03 <elliott> Gregor: YOU HAVE TO WORK TOWARDS IT
03:42:11 <elliott> Gregor: ur motivation reaches all-time lowz
03:42:56 <Sgeo> If I click a button and stupidly don't change the stupid default, deleting the result should not cause a crash
03:43:41 <elliott> SHUT UP I'M TIRED ENOGUH WITHUOUT YOU
03:43:45 <elliott> Gregor is dead to me now
03:44:15 <elliott> fizzie: this could be you http://i.imgur.com/iCDrN.png
03:44:38 <Gregor> And the Gnu just rolls over and grumbles when he's done with elliott; they never /talk/ any more.
03:44:52 <elliott> i know its like our relationship has reached a plateau of hate
03:45:05 <elliott> and i fear that every move will only send me down a slippery slope
03:45:09 <elliott> its why im tryin to get out man
03:45:12 <elliott> its why im tryin to break free
03:45:40 <Gregor> The persistent interspecies pedophilic rape isn't part of it?
03:46:30 <elliott> Gregor: no, i blame 4chan for that
03:47:38 -!- elliott has left (?).
03:47:40 -!- elliott has joined.
03:47:55 <elliott> Gregor: does xorg build with non-gcc i wonder
03:48:15 <Gregor> elliott: It certainly did in the 7.0 days
03:48:27 <elliott> Gregor: what compiler?
03:48:36 <Gregor> SunPRO
03:48:42 <elliott> pcc is kind of old and crusty and it's nice and it's learning these C99 ways, but sometimes it falls down and can't get up and what why would you even do that
03:48:43 <Gregor> Or whatever bizarre name that compiler has/had.
03:48:45 <elliott> what would possess you to do that
03:48:47 <elliott> you monster
03:48:53 <Gregor> Intel :P
03:49:08 <elliott> Gregor: even if i didn't have a handy checklist of reasons not to buy intel
03:49:09 <elliott> Gregor: that
03:49:11 <elliott> Gregor: that would convince me.
03:49:18 <Gregor> X-D
03:49:27 <elliott> Gregor: how many babies did they rape and then grind up to use in chips, i mean in an average day
03:49:27 <elliott> just
03:49:30 <elliott> rough estimate here
03:50:35 <elliott> Gregor: oh and i kinda need gcc for C++
03:50:39 <Gregor> Well, judging by the trucks, assuming maybe 250 per truck (average weight, stacked) I'd say about 1,250/day. Assuming they were in cages in the trucks, they could have really only fit maybe 80, making a much more conservative ~400/day
03:50:46 <elliott> Gregor: getting llvm/clang working with static linking is like on my list of things that are "not" fun, as in not fun
03:51:06 <elliott> Gregor: however the only C++ thing i want to ship is like, webkit :)
03:51:11 <elliott> and openjdk or whatever, to run minecraft.
03:51:29 <elliott> Gregor: they didn't use cages in fact they dehydrated the babies furst, what's the term
03:51:39 <elliott> like when you get tried fruit or, what they make concentrate juice from
03:51:40 <elliott> taking out all the water
03:51:42 <elliott> they did that to babies.
03:51:46 <elliott> and packed them
03:51:51 <Gregor> Concentrated.
03:51:56 <Gregor> But I don't think so.
03:51:57 <elliott> yes
03:52:00 <Gregor> At least, not judging by the screams.
03:52:09 <elliott> Gregor: they rehydrated them before the process moron
03:52:18 <elliott> wikileaks confirms it
03:52:28 <elliott> (wikileaks and netcraft merged )
03:52:43 <elliott> "IAmA former smoker, quit one year ago today, and YOU SHOULD QUIT SMOKING TODAY!"
03:52:44 <elliott> i don't smoke
03:52:45 <elliott> idiot
03:53:12 <Gregor> elliott: Then you'll have to start, so you can QUIT TODAY.
03:53:24 <elliott> i approve of this idea
03:53:29 <elliott> what do severe chain smokers get through
03:53:30 <elliott> 40 a day?
03:53:32 <elliott> i'll work towards it
03:53:39 <elliott> quit on the 39th
03:53:46 <Gregor> s/40/40 packs/
03:53:54 <elliott> Gregor: really??
03:53:58 <Gregor> No :P
03:54:02 <Gregor> But I wouldn't be surprised by 10.
03:54:10 <elliott> Gregor: see i believed you there you destroyed my trust
03:54:18 <elliott> Gregor: i think ill break up with you too
03:54:31 <elliott> "Boy, 2, Smokes Two Packs a Day"
03:54:38 <elliott> hardcore mfer
03:54:53 <elliott> "He cries and throws tantrums when we don't let him smoke. He's addicted," his father, Mohammad Rizal, says.
03:54:55 <elliott> i think
03:55:01 <elliott> i think there is a clear sourec of blame going on here
03:55:05 <elliott> like i mean
03:55:09 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
03:55:12 <elliott> i think its hard for your baby to go out on the streets and smoke cigarettes
03:55:15 <elliott> you sort of have to give him one i think
03:55:17 <elliott> Gregor: can you confirm this
03:55:39 <Gregor> In the US, Barney advertises for Marlboro.
03:56:14 <elliott> Gregor: <3 you have to make that now
03:56:16 <elliott> that would be amazing
03:56:19 <augur> BUT IN SOVIETY RUSSIA
03:56:27 <augur> MARLBORO ADVERTISES FOR BAAAARNEY
03:56:44 <elliott> soviety russia
03:56:46 <elliott> is that kind of
03:56:47 <Gregor> In Soviet Russia, Object Verb Subject!
03:56:48 <elliott> not soviet russia
03:56:50 <elliott> just soviet..y
03:56:51 <elliott> similar to soviets
03:56:53 <elliott> sovietesque
03:56:56 <elliott> but not soviet in and of itself
03:56:57 <Sgeo> Mohammed Rizal seemed unconcerned.
03:56:57 <Sgeo> "He looks pretty healthy to me. I don't see the problem," he said.
03:56:57 <Sgeo> Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/lifestyle/health/2010/05/26/2010-05-26_video_tragic_toddler_ardi_rizal_has_twopackaday_cigarette_habit.html#ixzz16vIwvOyv
03:56:59 <elliott> confirm/deny augur
03:57:04 <Sgeo> FUCK YOU WEIRD JAVASCRIPT
03:58:24 <augur> elliott: deny
03:58:32 <elliott> augur: what why
03:58:37 <augur> soviety is a type because t and y are close together
03:58:38 <augur> OR
03:58:46 <augur> its indicative of palatalization on the t
03:58:48 <augur> TAKE YOUR PICK
03:59:11 <elliott> augur: yur a horrible erpson
03:59:41 <elliott> DONKEY
03:59:42 <elliott> MOTHERFUCKING
03:59:43 <elliott> KONG
04:01:42 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/basedefs/xbd_chap08.html look at the end, the specification of TZ; looks like you can define DST and stuff in $TZ itself
04:01:47 <elliott> so all I need is like
04:01:56 <elliott> /share/timezones/uk
04:01:57 <elliott> to have the right thing
04:01:59 <elliott> and you can just do
04:02:03 <elliott> ln -s /share/timezones/uk /etc/tz
04:02:54 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
04:03:52 <Sgeo> What happens if I want to do implicit logarithmic differentiation of, say, y = -4x
04:04:13 <Sgeo> ln y = ln -4x = (ln -4) + (ln x)
04:04:29 <Sgeo> 1/y dy/dx = 1/x
04:04:36 <Sgeo> dy/dx = y/x = x/x = 1
04:04:53 <Sgeo> I'm too tired aren't I
04:05:22 <Sgeo> ... it's not a problem with the negatives
04:05:27 <Sgeo> It's a problem with my thinking
04:05:42 <Sgeo> Where's the problem with my thinking?''
04:06:13 * Sgeo facepalms
04:06:23 <Sgeo> y/x = -4x/x
04:07:36 <elliott> note to self: look into doing something like inbetween anarchy golf and all those project euler, sphere online judge things except realtime'd. because why go outside to BATTLE PROGRAM
04:11:13 <pikhq> elliott: Sooo. TZ is much more flexible than tzdata.
04:11:38 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, just more manual. I have a feeling tzdata might be an extremely old, pre-TZ way of mapping names to things like this. :p
04:11:51 <elliott> pikhq: So basically I can just maintain a set of common timezones and everyone else can just write their own fucking string.
04:12:12 <elliott> pikhq: (I could also see about extracting them from the typical tz database if I decide to be crazy.)
04:12:34 <pikhq> elliott: You could just parse it from the file they compile *into* the tz database.
04:12:46 <elliott> pikhq: Right.
04:13:06 <pikhq> Also, not "the typical" one. It's *the* tz database. http://www.twinsun.com/tz/tz-link.htm
04:14:15 <elliott> pikhq: I just said "the typical" to avoid ambiguity with the "TZ" name of the environment variable.
04:14:30 <elliott> [[To use the database on an extended POSIX implementation set the TZ environment variable to the location's full name, e.g., TZ="America/New_York".]]
04:14:33 <elliott> Hey, that violates POSIX.
04:14:40 <pikhq> Why yes, yes it does.
04:14:42 <elliott> TZ has to start with a : to be treated in an implementation-dependent way rather than the TZ specification.
04:15:10 <pikhq> Moral of the story: nothing is POSIXly correct.
04:16:06 <elliott> pikhq: POSIX is kind of a useless standard, based on a status quo that doesn't exist, specifying nothing.
04:16:13 <elliott> It's only useful as a reference manual.
04:16:31 <pikhq> It would at least be useful if everyone tried to follow it.
04:16:46 <elliott> pikhq: Oh man, these files are painfully complex.
04:16:48 <elliott> ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/tzdata2010o.tar.gz
04:16:57 <elliott> RuleUruguay2005only-Oct 9 2:001:00S
04:16:57 <elliott> RuleUruguay2006only-Mar12 2:000-
04:16:58 <pikhq> As it is, it specifies the "platonic ideal UNIX".
04:17:01 <elliott> RuleUruguay2006max-OctSun>=1 2:001:00S
04:17:01 <elliott> RuleUruguay2007max-MarSun>=8 2:000-
04:17:03 <elliott> Zone America/Montevideo-3:44:44 -LMT1898 Jun 28
04:17:03 <elliott> -3:44:44 -MMT1920 May 1# Montevideo MT
04:17:04 <elliott> -3:30UruguayUY%sT1942 Dec 14# Uruguay Time
04:17:04 <elliott> -3:00UruguayUY%sT
04:17:09 <elliott> I don't want to parse that, dude.
04:17:16 * pikhq vomits
04:17:35 <elliott> pikhq: [[Numeric time zone abbreviations typically count hours east of UTC, e.g., +09 for Japan and -10 for Hawaii. However, the POSIX TZ environment variable uses the opposite convention. For example, one might use TZ="JST-9" and TZ="HST10" for Japan and Hawaii, respectively.]]
04:17:51 <elliott> pikhq: POSIX: Oh, we know of your world standard. We decided it wasn't logical enough and replaced it.
04:17:51 <pikhq> Yeah, that's just oldschool brain damage.
04:22:11 <elliott> Well, let's try this sleep thing again.
04:22:23 <elliott> pikhq: If I can get uClibc compiled, maybe this Kitten thing will actually happen soon. :p
04:22:32 <elliott> Perhaps it shall be a Christmas present of pain, suffering and difficult installation.
04:22:34 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:23:54 * pikhq makes a prediction: elliott wins the world record for failure to sleep, and then passes out of exhaustion.
04:24:08 <pikhq> Oh, and by the end of it RAINBOW PONIES
05:02:40 * Sgeo randomly modifies the Newspeak IDE
05:03:06 <Sgeo> Hmm
05:03:10 <Sgeo> Works as expected
05:03:18 <Sgeo> But as expected is not as useful as I want
05:06:54 <Goosey> Hm
05:07:05 <Goosey> I just found out this kid I hit the other day brought a gun to school
05:07:14 <Goosey> He had cocaine on him too.
05:08:02 * Sgeo makes it more useful
05:08:53 <Sgeo> My IDE modification, not the cocaine
05:10:03 <Sgeo> elliott: In some fashion, remind me that I have simple but awesome changes in SelectorPresenter
05:12:12 <Sgeo> I just need to pretty it up a bit
05:15:43 <Sgeo> "Did you know? It's 12:14:55 am. Go get some rest!"
05:17:57 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
05:50:17 -!- Goosey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:51:48 -!- sftp has joined.
05:59:25 <pikhq> Poor, poor Kingdom of the Netherlands.
05:59:32 <pikhq> It has 3 distinct currencies.
06:01:05 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that with Smalltalk, Factor, and now Newspeak, I have attempted to make a contribution to the language
06:01:20 <pikhq> Euro in the Netherlands, Netherlands Antillean guilder in the BES Islands, Curaçao and Sint Maarten, and Aruban florin in Aruba.
06:01:28 <Sgeo> (Um, "language" is the wrong word)
06:01:37 <pikhq> Yes, the nation's currency is dependent on *which part of it you're in*.
06:02:57 <pikhq> Granted, everything but the Netherlands itself is one of several small islands, not physically contiguous at all, but hey. It's still crazy.
06:04:07 <pikhq> (for those confused: the Kingdom of the Netherlands has a similar setup to the UK, in that it's a monarchy over several constituent countries which form a single nation.)
06:16:23 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:37:03 <pikhq> ... Huh. Apparently Linux's filesystem handling is such that processes can have a private set of mount points.
06:37:16 <pikhq> That is to say, much like Plan 9, Linux offers per-process namespaces.
06:37:23 <pikhq> I know of nothing that actually uses this *at all*.
06:42:08 <Gregor> MIDI breath controllers: Too - damned - expensive.
06:44:32 <pikhq> My God. One could actually pretty much *have* Plan 9 just by replacing the Linux userspace.
06:46:48 <augur> eggnog is so delicious
06:46:49 <Sgeo> Gregor, coming from you, that's saying something. I think.
06:47:46 <Gregor> Sgeo: ... I'm cheap.
06:49:06 <pikhq> Hmm. That'd take a bit of doing for some of the really nice bits of Plan 9.
06:49:26 <pikhq> (making a cluster by union mounting the /proc of a few different systems together, for instance)
06:50:44 <Sgeo> Installing Mercurial apparently causes Newspeak to automatically use it
06:50:52 * Sgeo should bother at some point
06:59:01 -!- perdito has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
07:01:54 -!- FireFly|n900 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
07:20:31 -!- FireFly|n900 has joined.
07:31:20 -!- Sasha2 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
07:53:15 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:01:49 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
08:19:30 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
08:40:23 -!- perdito has joined.
08:48:21 -!- perdito has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
09:07:37 -!- FireFly|n900 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
09:07:56 -!- nopseudoidea has joined.
09:08:24 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
09:09:13 -!- ais523 has joined.
09:12:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:12:39 -!- ais523 has joined.
09:13:31 <ais523> gah, the hard part of adminning #esoteric is occasionally I have to check twice whether something's spam or not
09:13:51 <ais523> I mean, someone adds a random sequence of letters and punctuation to the hello world list, is that spam or an esoprogram?
09:14:12 <ais523> (it's easy to tell, generally, but requires concious thought, I can't let spamfighting go on mental automatic)
09:14:46 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
09:19:27 <oklopol> i dreamt i was playing minecraft on the esoserver
09:19:48 <oklopol> and dying meant being banned forever
09:21:45 <oklopol> anyway there were these areas that were apparently "close to hell" where destroying a block might start a chain reaction that opened up this huge hole on the ground, and you had to run for your lives
09:21:46 -!- FireFly|n900 has joined.
09:22:07 <oklopol> and then the elf in my party had a lesbian relationship with her twin or clone or whatever
09:26:56 <oklopol> also in the world, islands weren't separated by water, but by emptiness, with only a bridge of sparsely distributed single blocks you could jump on to get across, i was sent to build a proper bridge across of these, alone, and my father told me i shouldn't go into the cave without torches because of all the foxes.
09:27:19 <oklopol> and because it's particularly hard to use electricity in that particular cave... i had no idea what he was talking about
09:48:03 <Vorpal> <oklopol> and then the elf in my party had a lesbian relationship with her twin or clone or whatever <-- err
09:48:40 <Vorpal> oklopol, weird dream
09:52:36 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: how did nailor do his underwater thing? <-- before health
09:53:06 <Vorpal> elliott: also iirc he first did top down and got horrible streams, I helped fix those. then the rest he built top down
09:53:24 <Vorpal> elliott: but since you don't plan to have water above the thingy you will build, that shouldn't be a problem
09:54:02 <Vorpal> err the rest he built bottom up I meant
09:54:07 <Vorpal> elliott: also I believe he kept moving a dirt barrier forward when he built it bottom-uå
09:54:09 <Vorpal> up*
09:54:32 <oklopol> generally everything has sex with everything in my dreams
09:54:40 <Vorpal> oklopol, weird
09:55:21 <oklopol> i make things have sex whenever i have lucid moments, and my dreams are usually half-lucid
09:55:34 <oklopol> that i "kinda" know they are dreams
10:14:25 -!- atrapado has joined.
10:35:26 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
10:40:52 -!- nopseudoidea has quit (Quit: Quitte).
10:45:30 -!- oerjan has joined.
10:52:31 -!- perdito has joined.
11:09:52 <ais523> `addquote <oklopol> i make things have sex whenever i have lucid moments, and my dreams are usually half-lucid
11:10:20 <ais523> also, a bridge of sparsely distributed single blocks sounds like every platform game ever
11:10:26 <ais523> especially over emptiness
11:10:30 <ais523> what color was the emptiness?
11:10:51 <ais523> (or was color not a property it had? I find in my dreams, at least, many objects don't have properties you'd naturally expect them to have)
11:11:17 <oklopol> ais523: blueish.
11:11:22 <oklopol> bright blueish
11:11:53 <HackEgo> 266|<oklopol> i make things have sex whenever i have lucid moments, and my dreams are usually half-lucid
11:12:44 <perdito> i luv this chan
11:12:49 <perdito> :)
11:13:07 <ais523> oklopol: hmm, likely one of the Mario games then
11:13:36 <oklopol> i don't recall objects not having properties, but they certainly have properties they usually couldn't have, like being really scary, or "proving something", a property normal objects can't have, if they actually prove something, it's on an intellectual level, not emotional, although in tv series it does happen, since you sometimes aren't really following the technobabble, but you get that "oh my god that table has a *scratch* on it!"
11:14:41 <ais523> I know while I'm dreaming I don't notice all sorts of logical inconsistencies, I just assume that's the way the world works
11:14:59 <ais523> in fact, I'm remarkably unsuspicious while asleep, it helps to stop me noticing I'm asleep and waking up
11:16:11 <oklopol> i tend to check i'm awake every now and then, when i'm awake, it's something they tell you should do if you want to get lucid dreams, i do it partly because of that, and partly because i occasionally confuse reality and my dreams
11:17:39 <oklopol> which is basically schizophrenia, luckily it's rather rare
11:18:38 <oklopol> at least i've understood you should always know, when you're awake, whether things have happened or not, if you have a clear memory of them
11:18:54 <perdito> objects need properties to be identified, or even instanced as objets.. regarding to them as objects is the intellectual job, i think.. it's focussing on certain aspects of beeing.. and there is and infinite number of them out there
11:19:17 <perdito> so its hard work
11:19:24 <perdito> done while you're awake
11:20:00 <perdito> we are better artist,then we have thought, as master eckhard says
11:20:19 <perdito> we construct the world.. on the fly
11:21:56 <oklopol> i find it interesting that i can come up with awesome objects and worlds, compose okay songs, and come up with plots that make at least a little bit of sense, but math... i do it every day, but in my dreams, all the math parts seem like a 1st grader wrote them :\
11:22:00 <perdito> in our dreams, the doors of perception seem to open a little more
11:23:38 <oklopol> perdito: dunno about that, the way you think in dreams is the way you think when you're not really concentrated, except that you can send yourself sensory input, methinks.
11:23:50 <perdito> indeed!
11:24:23 <perdito> concentration = closing the doors of perception.. focusing.. filter the rest.. or even just identify and matter no more!
11:25:54 <oklopol> i can construct the same worlds in my head i do when i'm dreaming, i just explore them in a different, more pleasing way; the fact you can actually look at the world, as if through your eyes, doesn't really aid the process, it's just nice.
11:26:38 <oklopol> perdito: i find it a bit hard to follow your train of thought, and my meaningless poetry sensor starts beeping, no offense, i'm really trying :D
11:26:53 <oklopol> i guess i may be a bit hard to follow as well
11:27:04 <oklopol> hmm
11:27:11 <oklopol> yeah maybe i get your doors of perception
11:28:02 <oklopol> "or even just identify and matter no more!"
11:28:02 <perdito> sry.. my english prevents me to express myself clearer
11:28:13 <perdito> yes!!
11:28:16 <oklopol> that part is a bit hard to
11:28:23 <perdito> you got it :)
11:28:59 <oklopol> i did?
11:29:01 <oklopol> :D
11:29:18 <oklopol> i copy pasted that from yours to ask "what?"
11:29:58 <oklopol> if by "mattering" you mean "making a difference", in some deep philosophical sense, then i don't think we're talking about the same subject
11:30:53 <oklopol> i'm mostly interested in the fact the dreaming brain seems to shut off certain functions, for instance obviously the part responsible for math
11:30:57 <perdito> concentration is not required to percept the world around us! ..even worse! it makes us filter out all the "useless" information out there.. the infinity
11:31:06 <oklopol> which i find intuitive, but definititely not obvious
11:31:21 <oklopol> because certain parts of the brain are just as alive as they are awake
11:31:40 <oklopol> like the part that processes human relationships, that's on crack when you're dreaming
11:32:14 <oklopol> i'd like to mention, once again, the countless times i've fallen asleep reading math, and had the mathematical concepts turn into human relationships in a millisecond
11:32:45 <oklopol> in silly and intuitive ways, like a pair might be a marriage
11:32:50 <oklopol> and a list might be a queue
11:32:54 <oklopol> of people
11:34:02 <perdito> amazing
11:34:03 <perdito> :)
11:34:17 <oklopol> "<perdito> concentration is not required to percept the world around us! ..even worse! it makes us filter out all the "useless" information out there.. the infinity" <<< i don't know what the infinity is, but yeah, this may be true, although i think it's a side-effect, not in any way inherently necessary for concentration
11:34:52 <perdito> as huxley said, we need both:
11:34:53 <perdito> work
11:34:56 <perdito> & love
11:34:58 <oklopol> usually when i concentrate, i fall into a trance and don't really have any idea what i'm doing or what people are doing around me, but i think that's mostly "my thing"
11:35:09 <oklopol> work and love huh
11:35:19 <perdito> another analogy
11:35:25 <oklopol> yeah maybe we need both, and maybe that's relevant here in some sense
11:35:28 <oklopol> hmm
11:35:33 <oklopol> right
11:35:34 <oklopol> analogy
11:35:35 <perdito> body & soul
11:35:42 <perdito> function & percept
11:35:53 <oklopol> sure sure, wing and wang, black and white.
11:36:43 <oklopol> listing analogies is fun and all, but it's the stuff the part of the brain does that lives when you're asleep. not the part that thinks, and i like to think when i'm awake.
11:37:12 <perdito> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Bergson#Creativity <-- interesting article
11:37:18 <oklopol> i'm sure it is
11:37:24 <oklopol> i'll open it just in case
11:38:00 <ais523> hmm, esoidea: a lang that looks very like an existing lang, but has subtly different semantics
11:38:06 <ais523> C might be a good one to base it on
11:38:28 <oklopol> exactly same syntax
11:38:29 <ais523> my first idea is that instead of using break; to break out of a switch at the end of a case, instead you use continue; to /not/ break out
11:38:34 <oklopol> but nothing is what it seems
11:38:36 <ais523> oklopol: yep, identical syntax
11:38:56 <ais523> and ideally, it'd be similar enough that a program sort-of works like what you'd expect it to if you know the existing language
11:39:00 <oklopol> ah
11:39:10 <ais523> for instance, you could make C call-by-name rather than call-by-value
11:39:15 <oklopol> okay i was thinking something completely insane that could never be realized, but yeah i like the sort-of-works thing
11:39:16 <ais523> and people wouldn't realise something was wrong until much later
11:40:10 <oklopol> so i actually decided to stay home today and do my master's thesis, so if i'm not gone in an hour, you're all welcome to tell me to fuck off
11:42:06 <oklopol> anyway to continue the dream thing, wouldn't it be awesome, if there really is a way to "switch off math" from the brain (which is my conjecture, although you may disagree with my rather pseudo-scientific evidence of this), to learn to do math without it
11:42:14 <oklopol> i love the idea of sucking at something, and learning to do it
11:42:52 <ais523> oklopol: esolangs are my way to do that, in a way
11:43:02 <ais523> you write an esolang which doesn't have maths in, you figure out how to implement it in that
11:44:21 <oklopol> yeah but it's different when you're programming your own brain, and especially when it's something that you are, at first, just inherently incapable of understanding
11:45:28 <oklopol> ...that you're implementing
11:47:59 <oklopol> i just have a serious brain fetish, that's all
11:48:24 <perdito> remember good ol' operation mindfuck?
11:48:42 <oklopol> what was that
11:48:43 <perdito> wilsons theories on metaprogramming our minds
11:48:51 <oklopol> i haven't read
11:49:38 <perdito> cosmic trigger.. illuminatus.. schroedingers cat and so on.. a lotta beatiful and funny books to read
11:50:08 <oklopol> i can't really stand pop sci
11:50:23 <oklopol> and i don't particularly enjoy fiction
11:50:47 <oklopol> not that i know what those books are about
11:51:54 <perdito> dunn wheter there ever will be a way to create sth like artficial intuition, but im sure we wont without channels as this
11:52:19 <perdito> and lucid dreaming programmers like you oklopol :)
11:55:17 <oklopol> would be fun if it turns out it's actually pretty easy to program a fully conscious program, it's just intuition is impossible to implement, these programs can play chess, and *know they're alive*, but they *still* can't love / realize a proof is essentially just an application of lagrange's theorem
11:55:21 <perdito> but first i really need to do sth bout this english-leaks
11:56:02 <oklopol> i'm not a programmer, i'm a mathematician! they call me "the computer scientist" at work, i work in the math dep :P
11:56:54 <ais523> oklopol: well, I was a mathematician first, then an engineer, then a computer scientist
11:56:56 <ais523> programming's just a hobby
11:57:19 <ais523> well, and I teach programming part-time
11:57:26 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
11:58:26 <oklopol> "hey X, you're a computer scientist, wanna program this script for me?"
11:59:50 <perdito> softwaredev. needs it all.. maths, physics, pschycholgy, philosphy ..and ..uh..even martial arts *g
12:00:16 <oklopol> not seeing it, but easy to believe
12:00:45 <perdito> thanks 2 walls u can at least smash things on themt if they do not work as intended
12:00:50 <perdito> -->love
12:00:56 <perdito> remember
12:01:12 <oklopol> ah and if you know your martial arts, you might still be able to type
12:03:43 <oerjan> <oklopol> usually when i concentrate, i fall into a trance [...] but i think that's mostly "my thing" <-- sounds like what they call "flow" to me
12:04:07 <oklopol> hmm? like you follow people and eat food etc but you're not really there
12:08:42 <oerjan> also i have this matrix-like idea that when we dream we are actually connected to a different universe in which mathematical logic _does not exist_
12:08:52 <oklopol> :D
12:08:58 <oklopol> luv it!
12:16:32 <oerjan> hm today's iwc ... i guess the universe really _is_ doomed (again)
12:19:30 <ais523> oerjan: that arguably makes sense
12:19:30 -!- oklofok has joined.
12:19:54 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:20:27 <oerjan> yeah doom at new years is becoming a tradition
12:20:42 <ais523> oerjan: oh, I was referring to dreaming connected to a universe without mathematical logic
12:20:55 <ais523> while dreaming, you're in a universe made of disconnected parts of your own thoughts
12:21:01 <oerjan> XD
12:21:01 <ais523> and mathematical logic tends not to be among them
12:21:34 <ais523> sometimes, when you wake up, you can reconstruct what parts of your dream-universe were made from
12:22:18 <oklofok> i often directly get something i've thought about during the day in my dream
12:22:23 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
12:22:31 <ais523> indeed, that's common
12:22:33 <oklofok> for instance that game where you can really die
12:22:56 <oklofok> it wasn't common for me, before one day i told someone that's never happened to me, and then i had a dream i told her that
12:22:58 <ais523> as in, if you die in the game, it kills the player not just the character?
12:23:00 <oklofok> which was... weird
12:23:03 <oerjan> oklofok: i vaguely recall in the logs _someone_ telling us to shout if he wasn't gone in an hour, about an hour ago
12:23:08 <oklofok> :D
12:23:09 <ais523> oklofok: that's beautiful
12:23:43 <oklofok> ais523: also happened with that thing where your eye muscle starts repeatedly contracting, what's its name
12:23:44 <perdito> awareness
12:23:48 <oklofok> i never had that
12:23:58 <oklofok> then a girl said she'd been having that all day
12:24:09 <oklofok> i told her i'd never even heard about that kind of thing
12:24:11 <oklofok> and i go home
12:24:14 <oklofok> and it happens
12:24:40 <oklofok> after that it was quite common for a while, nowadays i can stop that kind of thing
12:25:08 <oklofok> btw i don't really believe my own stories even though i know they are true
12:25:24 <oklofok> they sound too unlikely
12:26:24 <oklofok> and by i don't believe them i mean i find it hard to believe them
12:27:03 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasciculation
12:28:29 <oklofok> "hearing about this concept" is not listed as a cause
12:29:14 <oerjan> or possibly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myokymia
12:29:50 -!- FireFly|n900 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:30:11 <oklofok> yeah so okay i'm leaving after this ep
12:30:18 <oklofok> 6 minutes
12:30:36 <oklofok> so if you need my expertise, ask now
12:31:39 <oerjan> oklofok: How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck would chuck wood?
12:32:07 <oklofok> depends on how it's changed to give it that ability
12:32:34 <oerjan> hm, imagine it being bitten by a radioactive beaver
12:32:38 <oklofok> hmm
12:34:00 <oklofok> it could chuck whole trees in a matter of hours
12:34:06 <perdito> rofl
12:34:12 -!- perdito has changed nick to perdito|afk.
12:34:27 <Vorpal> <oklofok> ais523: also happened with that thing where your eye muscle starts repeatedly contracting, what's its name <-- blinking?
12:34:34 <oklofok> :D
12:34:47 <oklofok> that was actually pretty funny
12:35:54 <oerjan> oklofok never blinked before
12:38:02 <oklofok> erm so
12:38:04 <oklofok> i'm going now
12:38:13 <oklofok> will close irc and everything
12:38:15 <oklofok> wish me luck
12:38:16 <Vorpal> okay
12:38:21 <oklofok> WISH
12:38:21 <Vorpal> oklofok, going to what?
12:38:27 <oklofok> i'm going to write stuff
12:38:30 <Vorpal> ah
12:38:31 <oerjan> BYE
12:38:32 <Vorpal> cya
12:38:42 <oklofok> ->
12:38:43 <Vorpal> and good luck
12:38:47 <oklofok> yay
12:38:51 -!- oklofok has quit.
12:40:27 -!- FireFly has joined.
12:41:56 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:43:41 -!- perdito|afk has quit (Quit: perdito|afk).
12:44:38 -!- ais523 has joined.
12:44:45 -!- ais523 has quit (Changing host).
12:44:45 -!- ais523 has joined.
12:51:06 -!- FireFly|n900 has joined.
12:52:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:53:29 -!- ais523 has joined.
13:11:20 -!- nopseudoidea has joined.
13:11:27 -!- elliott has joined.
13:14:44 <elliott> 22:44:32 <pikhq> My God. One could actually pretty much *have* Plan 9 just by replacing the Linux userspace.
13:14:46 <elliott> pikhq: glendix
13:15:06 <elliott> 01:13:31 <ais523> gah, the hard part of adminning #esoteric is occasionally I have to check twice whether something's spam or not
13:15:06 <elliott> 01:13:51 <ais523> I mean, someone adds a random sequence of letters and punctuation to the hello world list, is that spam or an esoprogram?
13:15:06 <elliott> 01:14:12 <ais523> (it's easy to tell, generally, but requires concious thought, I can't let spamfighting go on mental automatic)
13:15:10 <elliott> ais523: fail (first linem, #)
13:15:45 <elliott> 01:26:56 <oklopol> also in the world, islands weren't separated by water, but by emptiness, with only a bridge of sparsely distributed single blocks you could jump on to get across, i was sent to build a proper bridge across of these, alone, and my father told me i shouldn't go into the cave without torches because of all the foxes.
13:15:50 <elliott> this is better than minecraft
13:16:40 <elliott> 03:13:07 <ais523> oklopol: hmm, likely one of the Mario games then
13:16:43 <elliott> ais523: it was Minecraft
13:19:22 <elliott> 03:59:50 <perdito> softwaredev. needs it all.. maths, physics, pschycholgy, philosphy ..and ..uh..even martial arts *g
13:19:29 <elliott> what, software development is trivial and involves none of those
13:20:31 <Vorpal> elliott, surely you know kung-fu is invaluable when dealing with java?
13:20:50 <elliott> true.
13:21:02 <elliott> i have used physics to debug a complex tangle of gnu makefiles once
13:21:15 <elliott> (i dropped the hard drive from the top of a tall building)
13:21:19 <Vorpal> ah
13:21:26 <elliott> (note: story is fiction)
13:21:46 <elliott> :(, DMM licenses his comics non-freely.
13:21:47 <Vorpal> elliott, for being gnu, gnu make is quite decent
13:21:54 <Vorpal> elliott, since when?
13:21:59 <elliott> Vorpal: -nc-
13:22:03 <elliott> is nonfree
13:22:09 <Vorpal> elliott, depends on your definition
13:22:12 <elliott> discrimination against fields of endeavour
13:22:13 <elliott> no, it doesn't
13:22:26 <Vorpal> elliott, it is freer than "all rights reserved"
13:22:27 <oerjan> elliott: shush, clearly perdito intends to start a new and glorious age of software development
13:22:30 <elliott> it's against the DFSG, the OSI definition
13:22:39 <oerjan> there may even be giant robots involved
13:22:46 <elliott> won't even bother looking up the FSF's opinion, i think it's obvious :)
13:22:55 <elliott> Vorpal: freer -- "i'm slightly pregnant"
13:22:57 <Vorpal> elliott, nd I would have considered non-free
13:23:09 <Vorpal> elliott, that reply made no sense...
13:23:15 <elliott> no, it made perfect sense
13:23:23 <elliott> "my software is slightly unfree" -- "i'm slightly pregnant"
13:23:25 <elliott> no such thing.
13:23:31 <elliott> Vorpal: if you consider -nc- free you also have to consider -njews- free
13:23:37 <Vorpal> elliott, law of excluded middle?
13:23:40 <elliott> i.e., anybody but jews can redistribute this software
13:24:48 <Vorpal> elliott, free is a gradual scale. GPL is free. BSD is more free. that "do wtf you want" license is in some sense even more free
13:25:05 <elliott> you do realise i'm using free in the Free sense?
13:25:16 <oerjan> <elliott> Vorpal: freer -- "i'm slightly pregnant" <-- this is ridiculous since nothing in our current world can be truly free, there are always limitations
13:25:19 <Vorpal> elliott, as for njews, sure it is freer than all rights reserved. That isn't saying it is a good idea though
13:25:28 <elliott> http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines, something is either entirely free or not free at all
13:25:31 <Vorpal> oerjan, indeed
13:25:33 <elliott> oerjan: um i don't see how that is true at all
13:25:37 <elliott> oerjan: please back that up
13:25:54 <Vorpal> elliott, you aren't free if you need to include info on who originally made it.
13:26:00 <Vorpal> thus *BSD is non-free
13:26:08 <elliott> not according to the definition of http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
13:26:11 <Vorpal> (see, this makes no sense)
13:26:15 <elliott> I'm saying Free here, not free, you're stupid
13:26:32 <elliott> "Free" means one of a few well-defined set of conditions
13:26:34 <elliott> for instance, http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
13:26:38 <Vorpal> elliott, you didn't use upper case above
13:26:43 <Vorpal> <elliott> :(, DMM licenses his comics non-freely.
13:26:48 <Vorpal> non-Freely surely?
13:26:50 <elliott> because the /other/ meaning of free is "costs no money"
13:26:55 <elliott> and it was damn obvious
13:27:01 <elliott> and i'm not about to start saying "libre"
13:27:02 <Vorpal> elliott, no it wasn't
13:27:09 <elliott> yes. indeed not to you
13:27:22 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
13:27:30 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
13:28:13 <Vorpal> elliott, sure it isn't DFSG compliant. But it is somewhat free.
13:28:26 <elliott> it is not Free(TM)(C)(R) at all
13:29:00 <Vorpal> perhaps. it is a lot more free than, for example, dillbert though.
13:29:08 <Vorpal> s/e,/e/
13:29:16 <Vorpal> hm
13:29:32 <Vorpal> (insert other grammar fixes here)
13:29:49 <elliott> Vorpal: define free
13:29:55 <elliott> if you mean Free, then no, no it's not
13:30:33 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't mean the DFSG sense. It should be obvious
13:30:54 <Vorpal> elliott, since that is a boolean sense. While I clearly refer to a gradual sense
13:30:58 <elliott> Vorpal: if you mean libre, well, good luck defining a scale of libre
13:31:04 <elliott> because there isn't really one
13:31:06 <Vorpal> elliott, I never said that either
13:31:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm pretty sure you know what I mean
13:31:21 <elliott> what, then?
13:31:22 <elliott> free of cost?
13:31:55 <elliott> Vorpal: ? I cannot think of any more definitions of free.
13:32:03 <elliott> Free, libre, and free as in beer
13:32:04 <elliott> what else
13:32:50 <Vorpal> elliott, the everyday sense that is a gradual scale from "all rights reserved, full DRM, costs a shitload" to "do what the fuck you want with this"
13:32:59 <elliott> Vorpal: so, libre.
13:33:15 <elliott> remind me to avoid using confusing french around you in future
13:33:17 <Vorpal> elliott, libre is not actually a gradual scale as commonly defined afaik
13:33:55 <Vorpal> or not at least in the sense most commonly used in relation to software
13:35:18 <elliott> i wonder if booting without an initramfs/initrd actually works these days
13:35:49 <ais523> now I have to read scrollback to see what the argument was about
13:36:11 <elliott> ais523: me saying that no, an -nc- license is *not* Free, Vorpal misinterpreting this and saying "but it's MORE FREE!!"
13:36:21 <ais523> <elliott> ais523: it was Minecraft <--- the dream was clearly a modified Minecraft, I was trying to figure out what it was modified /by/
13:36:31 <elliott> repeat until Vorpal reveals that he's not able to infer "Free" from "free" by obvious context
13:36:33 <coppro> /win 2
13:36:45 <elliott> ais523: 01:22:07 <oklopol> and then the elf in my party had a lesbian relationship with her twin or clone or whatever
13:36:51 <elliott> ais523: what the heck is that from then :P
13:37:04 <ais523> elliott: he explained a bit later
13:37:26 <coppro> elliott: what time is it right now?
13:37:33 <elliott> coppro: what?
13:37:41 <coppro> elliott: what time is it right now
13:37:45 <ais523> coppro: 08:37:05 when I asked your client what time it was
13:37:46 <elliott> 01:22:07 <oklopol> and then the elf in my party had a lesbian relationship with her twin or clone or whatever
13:37:46 <elliott> 01:26:56 <oklopol> also in the world, islands weren't separated by water, but by emptiness, with only a bridge of sparsely distributed single blocks you could jump on to get across, i was sent to build a proper bridge across of these, alone, and my father told me i shouldn't go into the cave without torches because of all the foxes.
13:37:46 <elliott> 01:27:19 <oklopol> and because it's particularly hard to use electricity in that particular cave... i had no idea what he was talking about
13:37:47 <elliott> 01:54:32 <oklopol> generally everything has sex with everything in my dreams
13:37:49 <elliott> 01:55:21 <oklopol> i make things have sex whenever i have lucid moments, and my dreams are usually half-lucid
13:37:51 <coppro> ais523: thanks
13:37:52 <elliott> 01:55:34 <oklopol> that i "kinda" know they are dreams
13:37:57 <elliott> ais523: i don't think that counts as explanation
13:38:11 <ais523> it's 13:37 in my timezone
13:38:19 <ais523> elliott: does to me
13:38:20 <coppro> double thanks
13:39:03 <elliott> ais523: well, I doubt he'd go out of his way to indicate a particular relationship if by his own admission he made /everyone/ had a relationship-by-some-definition
13:39:13 <elliott> therefore i consider his dream an unexplained phenomenon.
13:39:17 <elliott> we may never know.
13:39:21 <coppro> meh, dreams
13:39:25 <coppro> I don't have them often
13:39:31 <coppro> at least, I don't recall having them often
13:39:35 <coppro> probably I have them all the time
13:39:41 <ais523> you only remember a dream if you wake up during it
13:39:46 <ais523> that's why dreams never seem to get to the end
13:40:16 <elliott> ais523: do you have proof of that or a cite or whatever
13:40:19 <elliott> never heard that
13:40:24 <coppro> brains to seem to have this thing of not committing dreams to memory
13:40:28 <coppro> elliott: sounds about right
13:40:38 <oerjan> well sometimes you wake up because the dream does end, horribly
13:40:39 <ais523> elliott: no, it's something like third-hand info that I can't remember where I've read it
13:40:46 <ais523> but it's consistent with my experiences
13:40:50 <ais523> oerjan: arguably, that would be waking up during
13:40:52 <elliott> coppro: that doesn't count as evidence, though, especially because remembering what happens at the end of dreams just before you wake up is near-impossible
13:40:59 <elliott> oerjan is right though
13:41:00 <coppro> elliott: It's all hear-say anyways
13:41:05 <elliott> i've woken up right when i died in dreams
13:41:10 <elliott> coppro: there is actual dream research.
13:41:15 <ais523> I'd say it's because you died in the dream and the dream was still continuing
13:41:22 <ais523> but the death was a really obvious sign you were dreaming
13:41:26 <ais523> and thus, a prompt to wake up
13:41:33 <coppro> yes, but we can't empirically measure dream retention
13:41:49 <ais523> I wonder if, if you were lucid dreaming, you could die in your dream and then keep lucid control over the afterlife
13:42:12 <elliott> coppro: pi don't think that's necessarily true
13:42:13 <elliott> *i
13:42:20 <elliott> ais523: i doubt it :p
13:42:23 <coppro> I have to agree with ais523 on one thing, though
13:42:31 <ais523> I don't think it's obvious either way
13:42:38 <coppro> I only remember a dream if when I wake, I was dreaming right before
13:42:47 <coppro> (there. now we've avoided the "end of a dream" issue)
13:43:16 <oerjan> CLEVER
13:43:50 <elliott> but not clever enough for oerjan
13:43:57 <elliott> he will come and rip your soul out of your body
13:44:15 <elliott> Vorpal: btw, you said i shouldn't clobber owners on dirs etc. that have to be owned by a specific special-purpose user
13:44:31 <elliott> Vorpal: well, I'd have to chmod them in postinst anyway. because of course the target machine won't have the user, so the postinst script has to add it, and the UID might not be the same
13:45:48 <ais523> elliott: Debian actually has some sort of crazy systematic solution for that
13:45:54 <ais523> I can't remember what it is, but it's likely in debhelper somewhere
13:46:01 <elliott> ais523: and I have postinst scripts!!
13:46:08 <elliott> joy!
13:46:23 <elliott> $ ls
13:46:23 <elliott> description needs scripts source.tar version website
13:46:27 <elliott> this package manager is comin' together
13:46:58 <elliott> ais523: I *think* I've avoided the problem of understanding yours and CLC-INTERCAL's versioning systems altogether (for upgrades)
13:47:00 <ais523> hmm, gitorious is down
13:47:03 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
13:47:48 <elliott> ais523: I was considering bug-hunting C-INTERCAL to pass time, but then I realised I'd be entering the Realm of the ESR, and decided not to. you traitor :p
13:47:59 <elliott> (ok so i also decided it sounded like not much fun at all)
13:48:19 <ais523> you could try running the fuzz-tester, that's a) easy, and b) entirely written by me
13:48:41 <ais523> in fact, esr tried to stop me doing it (on the basis he thought I'd be wasting my time, admittedly, rather htan thinking it was necessarily a bad idea)
13:49:02 <elliott> ais523: the cathedral and the bazaar and the fascist dictatorial state
13:49:11 -!- perdito|afk has joined.
13:49:17 <elliott> ais523:and -- oh, I meant actually analysing and modifying the code by hand
13:49:20 <elliott> *ais523: and
13:49:24 <elliott> (preferably avoiding running it)
13:49:36 <elliott> ais523: you need to re-fork it :p
13:51:04 <elliott> ais523: (or maybe I'll just write ITRALCEN!)
13:51:43 <elliott> ais523: apropos nothing at all, have you seen http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2010/12/haskell-researchers-announce-discovery.html?
13:51:45 -!- nopseudoidea has quit (Quit: Quitte).
13:52:09 <elliott> [["I'm kind of surprised I'm the only person on earth who gives a shit about it," Briars continued. "I'd have thought there would be more people following the press releases closely and then not using Haskell. But they all just skip the press releases and go straight to the not using it part."]]
13:57:46 -!- perdito|afk has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
14:00:17 <elliott> "Would you please do me the kindness of adding a second "l" and a second "t" to my last name ("Elliott") in your link?" --Conal Elliott
14:00:19 <elliott> HE FEELS MY PAIN
14:03:18 <oerjan> you'll have to start a secret society of elliotts
14:04:49 -!- Sasha has joined.
14:04:52 -!- Sasha has quit (Client Quit).
14:05:30 -!- Sasha has joined.
14:07:59 <oerjan> elliott: i think someone's been reading a bit of onion
14:08:17 <oerjan> *the onion
14:08:36 <elliott> oerjan: also http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2010/07/wikileaks-to-leak-5000-open-source-java.html
14:08:47 <elliott> oerjan: it's funnier than the onion though, with the onion you can usually just read the headline and skip the rest
14:09:41 -!- perdito|afk has joined.
14:16:03 <elliott> ais523: would you appreciate the effort if I wrote something to convert every CPAN package to a Kitten package in the repos? :-P
14:16:10 -!- perdito|afk has quit (Quit: perdito|afk).
14:24:41 -!- perdito|afk has joined.
14:26:35 -!- perdito|afk has changed nick to perdito.
14:26:59 <Vorpal> elliott, do you know if python allows you to have values such as NaN and +/-inf for floating point without throwing exceptions?
14:27:10 <Vorpal> it seems to throw exceptions all the time when I try
14:27:39 <elliott> >>> float('nan')
14:27:39 <elliott> nan
14:27:43 <Vorpal> hm
14:27:44 <Vorpal> weird
14:27:46 <elliott> >>> float('inf')
14:27:46 <elliott> inf
14:27:46 <elliott> >>> float('-inf')
14:27:46 <elliott> -inf
14:27:54 <elliott> >>> float('asdf')
14:27:54 <elliott> ValueError: invalid literal for float(): asdf
14:27:58 <elliott> Vorpal: but 1./0. is not allowed.
14:28:04 <Vorpal> elliott, ah that explains it.
14:28:08 <elliott> it raises a ZeroDivisionError
14:28:18 <elliott> Vorpal: also math.isnan
14:28:21 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed, I would have expected it to act as IEEE prescribes
14:28:26 <elliott> and math.isinf
14:28:29 <Vorpal> indee
14:28:29 -!- perdito has changed nick to perdito|afk.
14:28:34 <Vorpal> indeed*
14:28:55 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, is float single or double?
14:29:00 <Vorpal> in python that is
14:29:13 <elliott> double i think
14:29:17 <Vorpal> ah good
14:29:22 <elliott> how can i check
14:29:29 -!- sftp has joined.
14:29:42 * elliott looks into postoffice
14:29:45 <Vorpal> well, I could do it as easily
14:29:53 <Vorpal> (which is the say, it involves some work)
14:30:10 <Vorpal> elliott, I wish the python REPL had tab complete
14:30:44 <elliott> Vorpal: put in ~/.pythonstartup
14:30:47 <elliott> import readline
14:30:51 <elliott> import rlcompleter
14:30:53 <elliott> readline.parse_and_bind('tab: complete')
14:30:59 <elliott> or whatever
14:31:05 <elliott> Vorpal: (and yes that works)
14:31:15 <Vorpal> why on earth is that not default then
14:31:19 <elliott> Vorpal: or try ipython
14:31:35 <elliott> Vorpal: which is the python REPL so bloated, it's basically a shell
14:31:41 <elliott> but it syntax-highlights :P
14:31:45 <Vorpal> haha
14:31:57 <elliott> probably in $your_distro
14:32:03 <Vorpal> elliott, so wait, this will tab complete stuff like myintvar.<tab here> to list possible members?
14:32:09 <Vorpal> that is the rlcompleter thingy
14:32:12 <elliott> Vorpal: maybe. it certainly works with modules
14:32:20 <elliott> Vorpal: oh there's also bpython, which also has integrated docs: http://bpython-interpreter.org/screenshots/
14:32:41 <Vorpal> elliott, hm are you sure about ~/.pythonstartup ?
14:32:47 -!- perdito|afk has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
14:32:47 <Vorpal> it seems to do absolutely nothing
14:32:50 <elliott> no i just googled :D
14:32:53 * Vorpal tries it directly in the shell
14:33:04 <elliott> PYTHONSTARTUP¶
14:33:04 <elliott> If this is the name of a readable file, the Python commands in that file are executed before the first prompt is displayed in interactive mode. The file is executed in the same namespace where interactive commands are executed so that objects defined or imported in it can be used without qualification in the interactive session. You can also change the prompts sys.ps1 and sys.ps2 in this file.
14:33:10 <elliott> Vorpal: set PYTHONSTARTUP=$HOME/.pythonstartup
14:33:13 <elliott> or .pythonrc or whatever
14:33:13 <Vorpal> elliott, heh
14:33:27 <elliott> http://bpython-interpreter.org/screenshots/ is actually really cool
14:33:42 <elliott> Vorpal: http://geoffford.wordpress.com/2009/01/20/python-repl-enhancement/ also saves history to a file
14:34:01 <elliott> haha, "/etc/postoffice.cf" oldschool
14:34:18 <Vorpal> elliott, other feature I would like: reloading a file into the shell without a pain calling sys.whatever(). (alternatively you could just restart python but then you lose that scrollback)
14:34:41 <elliott> Vorpal: try help(reload)
14:34:50 <elliott> e.g.
14:34:52 <elliott> >>> import sys
14:34:54 <elliott> >>> reload(sys)
14:34:59 <elliott> <module 'sys' (built-in)>
14:35:00 <Vorpal> elliott, I seem to remember it managed to crash python for me
14:35:06 <elliott> well, it shouldn't.
14:35:11 <elliott> also that only works if you import it as a module
14:35:22 <elliott> e.g. "from sys import * \n reload(sys)" won't change the in-scope definitions
14:35:32 <elliott> "from sys import * \n reload(sys) \n from sys import *" will though
14:35:39 <elliott> (but the old definitions will still be there, if any values got removed)
14:35:42 <Vorpal> hm
14:36:35 <Vorpal> elliott, the rlcompleter thing seems to do the job. :)
14:36:46 <elliott> Vorpal: you may want to nab the history-saving from that blog post too
14:36:51 <elliott> ok postoffice looks pretty cool
14:37:01 <Vorpal> elliott, is it an MTA?
14:37:01 <elliott> but still more configuration than i'd like
14:37:16 <Vorpal> elliott, also isn't .cf something to do with m4?
14:37:17 <elliott> Vorpal: well, it's an SMTP server/client
14:37:30 <Vorpal> at least I seem to remember that sendmail used .cf and also m4
14:37:37 <elliott> .cf is what sendmail used for configuration files, it's just that this guy was used to sendmail when he wrote postoffice
14:37:39 <elliott> so he stole the extension :)
14:37:42 <elliott> http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~orc/Code/postoffice/
14:37:46 <Vorpal> ah
14:38:03 <elliott> on the one hand, it looks like i'd have to do quite a bit of configuration. on the other hand, it looks like a lot less of a bitch to package than qmail!
14:38:31 <Vorpal> elliott, postfix is actually quite decent iirc. Qmail is better of course.
14:38:53 <elliott> Vorpal: I tried to use postfix once, and then I looked at the configuration files and my process tree.
14:38:55 <elliott> No thanks...
14:39:08 <Vorpal> hm
14:39:13 <Vorpal> elliott, what about the process tree?
14:39:39 <elliott> Vorpal: postfix likes to spawn a new process to do every single thing it can think of, because that way it can reduce their privileges
14:39:50 <elliott> so you end up with 1,000,000 processes each with their own postfix-specific user :)
14:39:51 <Vorpal> elliott, you do realise qmail is kind of like that too?
14:39:58 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, but postfix takes it to THE XTREME
14:40:06 <Vorpal> huh
14:40:28 <Vorpal> elliott, and I seem to remember qmail having far more users
14:40:34 <elliott> than postfix?
14:40:36 <Vorpal> yes
14:40:39 <elliott> postfix is very popular.
14:40:42 <elliott> qemu is quite niche. :P
14:40:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant user account
14:40:53 <Vorpal> accounts*
14:40:53 <elliott> ah
14:40:58 <elliott> but does it use them all at once?
14:41:36 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I believe it tends to start stuff as it needs for many things, just a handful running all the time, supervised by daemontools
14:41:48 <elliott> All I want is to route user@domain to ~user by default, define a few aliases/wildcards e.g. *@domain -> elliott@domain, and also if ~user/.filtermail exists, execute it for every incoming message with stdin being the headers and message body, then stop processing further if it exits 0 (if it exits 1) keep going
14:42:04 <elliott> and just put it in a maildir
14:42:05 <Vorpal> elliott, hm I can ssh to a computer with postfix and check user count
14:42:13 <Vorpal> one user, called postfix
14:42:28 <Vorpal> maybe different distros package it differently?
14:42:35 <elliott> or i'm misremembering...
14:42:38 <elliott> anyway it had a ton of processes
14:42:39 <elliott> that's all i remember
14:42:53 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway, if I packaged qemu, I'd have to replace the daemontools scripts with svmg scripts
14:42:55 <Vorpal> elliott, yes it does have 4 processes atm. But qmail is the account-insane one
14:43:03 <Vorpal> elliott, qemu?
14:43:03 <elliott> since svmg is almost a direct clone of daemontools/runit, that wouldn't be too hard, but still
14:43:06 <elliott> erm
14:43:06 <Vorpal> what has it got to do with it
14:43:07 <elliott> qmail
14:43:09 <Vorpal> ah
14:43:23 <elliott> also, that /package and /command crap
14:43:39 <elliott> i think only daemontools is packaged like *that* though
14:44:36 <elliott> <elliott> All I want is to route user@domain to ~user by default, define a few aliases/wildcards e.g. *@domain -> elliott@domain, and also if ~user/.filtermail exists, execute it for every incoming message with stdin being the headers and message body, then stop processing further if it exits 0 (if it exits 1) keep going
14:44:36 <elliott> <elliott> and just put it in a maildir
14:44:40 <elliott> i'm almost tempted to write it ;)
14:45:42 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:50:13 -!- nopseudoidea has joined.
14:51:26 <elliott> ok why isn't locale support working in uClibc
14:53:03 <elliott> /* Silly foreigners disabling en_US locales */
14:53:08 <elliott> --gen_wc8bit.c
14:55:51 <elliott> Yay, it's working now.
14:55:58 <elliott> Uh, sort of.
14:56:04 <elliott> TODO: look into locales some more.
15:00:33 <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 1.7M Dec 2 14:56 lib/libc.a
15:00:36 <elliott> Eh, that's not bad.
15:00:54 <elliott> Ha! It's bigger than glibc on my system. I wonder why.
15:01:09 <elliott> Of course glibc is a .so.
15:01:33 <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 4.3M Oct 31 00:34 /usr/lib/libc.a
15:01:33 <elliott> There.
15:01:41 <elliott> And of course there are dlopen'd parts of glibc...
15:01:47 -!- perdito|afk has joined.
15:03:57 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
15:04:56 <elliott> $ cat /proc/cpuinfo | awk '/^processor/ { print $3 }' | tail -1
15:05:01 <elliott> The ugliest way to get the number of cores possible.
15:05:06 <elliott> Wait, that actually needs +1.
15:05:13 <elliott> $ cat /proc/cpuinfo | awk '/^processor/ { print $3+1 }' | tail -1
15:05:40 -!- nopseudoidea has quit (Quit: Quitte).
15:06:34 <elliott> Oh, this is cleaner:
15:06:35 <elliott> cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep processor | awk '{a++} END {print a}'
15:08:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
15:10:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:10:57 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
15:11:40 <elliott> /var/pkg/vi/scripts/build
15:11:42 <elliott> Mwahahaha, paths.
15:13:18 -!- jcp has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
15:14:39 <elliott> pikhq: ugh! i need to put two filenames on a line. rapidly losing hope :)
15:15:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Why?
15:17:20 -!- jcp has joined.
15:17:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: symlinks
15:17:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Go on.
15:18:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: x -> y
15:19:02 <Phantom_Hoover> And this stops you putting two filenames on a line?
15:19:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: every character but \0 is a valid component of a path
15:19:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah.
15:19:59 <elliott> googling "manifest file" is impossible thanks to java :(
15:29:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: In fact I'm 90% of the way to not even bothering with a manifest...
15:32:57 <Phantom_Hoover> http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50260000/jpg/_50260127_searchingforporn,bbc.jpg
15:33:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't even think of anything to say about that.
15:33:31 <elliott> That is now my favourite image.
15:33:32 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
15:33:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh man, imagine the steps taken to create that image.
15:33:52 <elliott> Load up google, type in porn, get the camera out, tripod, zoom...
15:34:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Words fail me.
15:34:17 <elliott> "That angle's not the standard BBC Angle To Show Zoomed In Computer Screens At! (pretty sure they have one, just about every photo they do of that sort has an angle like that)"
15:34:19 <elliott> And, redo!
15:34:33 -!- sshc has joined.
15:38:06 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:39:47 <elliott> oerjan is a bath tub
15:42:41 <oerjan> that's just bubble, er babble
15:43:03 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50260000/jpg/_50260127_searchingforporn,bbc.jpg
15:43:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Comment.
15:44:08 <oerjan> {- porn -}
15:47:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wanna help me build THE GLASS CUBE?
15:47:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Mining now, I assume?
15:48:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No! I'm getting the glass from the server, because you see, it involves 81 thousand pieces of sand.
15:48:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And while I *could* obtain that without difficulty, I would sooner kill myself than face that kind of tedium.
15:48:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah.
15:48:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Fun fact! When it goes underwater, I will have to use a bucket 128x128x64 = 1,048,576 times. This is because of the sea
15:48:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I do not like the sea
15:49:20 <Phantom_Hoover> i blame the sea gets in the way of construction
15:49:59 <elliott> indeed
15:51:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is chat broken or something?
15:51:32 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
15:52:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it
15:52:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it is down
15:52:10 <elliott> NO LONGER
15:52:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Fair point.
15:52:13 <elliott> It is back up.
15:52:20 <elliott> Why do I have two pigs in my inventory.
15:52:20 <Phantom_Hoover> How will you deal with the bedrock?
15:52:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Finding a 128x128 block of it that's naturally smooth is an exercise in futility.
15:52:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: help help help i'm stuck
15:52:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And, I just won't.
15:53:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's okay for the very bottom floor to be a bit uneven.
15:53:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: This thing *is* going to have something like 20 floors.
15:53:14 <elliott> Or more.
15:53:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The last three floors or so will be lined with obsidian on the walls and floors/ceilings, anyway (apart from the final bedrock floor).
15:53:38 <oerjan> !haskell 20^3
15:53:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They are intended for the post-apocalyptic scenarios.
15:54:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps I ought to do something about that...
15:54:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: About what?
15:54:19 <Phantom_Hoover> The apocalypse.
15:54:21 <elliott> Ah.
15:54:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, I have a 200-metre long warship under construction.
15:54:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Ostensibly.
15:54:37 <elliott> Indeed :P
15:55:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: FUN FACT! My cube will be 2,097,152 m^3 (and thus blocks).
15:55:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I am going to rent out sections of it for free because let's face it, I can't even fill a 128x128 floor with my stuff.
15:55:48 <oerjan> !help
15:55:57 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
15:56:03 <oerjan> !haskell 20^3
15:56:05 <EgoBot> 8000
15:57:06 <oerjan> !haskell 2097152**(1/3)
15:57:10 <EgoBot> 127.99999999999997
15:57:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, and I'm also going to need TONS OF LAVA.
15:57:57 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, bug ineiros?
15:57:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'd like the lighting layers to be just one tall, so I can't use a bunch of falls.
15:58:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So I'm going to need 128 * 128 * floors pieces of lava.
15:58:21 <elliott> Yeah, I'm gonna ask ineiros to put some readily-accessible lava near the spawnpoint. :p
16:04:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Taking a break already?
16:04:42 <oerjan> I love lava, red and hot
16:04:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
16:06:31 -!- perdito|afk has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
16:12:40 <yorick> meh minecraft
16:13:44 <elliott> We like it, shut up.
16:13:49 <oerjan> alas, poor yorick, stepping into a minefield
16:14:30 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:15:16 <oerjan> http://www.maumae.net/yorick/doc/index.php
16:15:26 -!- nopseudoidea has joined.
16:17:07 -!- perdito|afk has joined.
16:17:30 <elliott> ais523: does C-INTERCAL work with -jN?
16:17:36 <elliott> ais523: its makefile, that is
16:38:11 * yorick stabs the Yorick namers
16:38:46 <yorick> they're making those annoying "AI" bots say "yorick: you are an interpreted programming language"
16:52:54 <elliott> ais523: hmm, can I have your esoteric opinion on something?
16:53:01 <elliott> or oerjan's :P
17:08:52 <elliott> (fn P P) A = A.
17:08:52 <elliott> (fn P (F X)) A = (fn P F A) (fn P X A).
17:08:53 <elliott> (fn P X) A = X.
17:08:54 <elliott> Behold! Lambdas!
17:12:11 <oerjan> doesn't work if X is of the form (fn ... ...) with A inside somewhere
17:12:41 <elliott> oerjan: hm? howso?
17:12:47 <oerjan> er i mean P inside
17:13:01 <elliott> oerjan: don't quite see how that applies (although it certainly is failing in my tests :D
17:13:03 <elliott> *:D)
17:13:17 <elliott> also it seems to be non-lazy, Y foo is always diverging :p
17:13:20 <oerjan> ...you have no rule for that case
17:13:42 <oerjan> (fn P (fn Q P)) A
17:14:00 <elliott> oerjan: = (fn P ((fn Q) P)) A
17:14:07 <oerjan> and that's the case which requires all the alpha machinery
17:14:08 <elliott> oerjan: so F = fn Q, X = P
17:14:16 <elliott> but yeah fucking alpha conversion
17:14:20 <elliott> oerjan: i hereby invite you to fix it! ^_^
17:14:27 <oerjan> i hereby decline
17:15:54 <elliott> oerjan: a cool thing about this though
17:15:55 <elliott> >>> (fn x (fn y x)) hello
17:15:56 <elliott> ...
17:15:58 <elliott> fn y hello
17:16:02 <elliott> is that it SPECIALISES :P
17:17:42 <oerjan> mhm
17:17:56 <elliott> i'll try it with de bruijn indexes...
17:18:46 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:20:23 <elliott> meh :
17:20:24 <elliott> :p
17:21:11 <ais523> elliott: yep, it works with -jN for all positive integer N (that are small enough for make to parse correctly); and you can try to have my opinion, but I may not be paying attention
17:21:45 <elliott> ais523: alas, my problem was another entirely and your opinion is thus not useful
17:21:59 <elliott> ais523: but cool, let's see if i can get C-INTERCAL's latest release into Kitten 0.1
17:22:06 <elliott> ais523: is there a convenient list of dependencies?
17:22:45 <ais523> to what degree of granularity?
17:22:46 <ais523> there are several
17:22:57 <ais523> hmm, the list for DOS is probably best, as none of the software you need is installed on DOS by default
17:24:45 <ais523> binutils, gcc, make, bash, diffutils, fileutils, findutils, awk, sed, shellutils, textutils; bison and flex are needed to recompile all the way from sources, texinfo and asciidoc (ugh esr) for the documentation
17:25:55 <ais523> most are only needed for the build system to work
17:27:24 -!- nopseudoidea has quit (Quit: Quitte).
17:29:11 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
17:29:28 <elliott> ais523: asciidoc is nicer than texinfo, but why the fuck use two??
17:29:44 <elliott> ais523: also, I doubt the latest release requires AsciiDoc, only the git, right?
17:31:30 <elliott> ais523: in which case it doesn't matter
17:34:06 <elliott> "SonicBlue was sued over the commercial-skipping feature of ReplayTV on similar grounds. "Your contract when you get the show is you're going to watch the spots [advertisements]. … Any time you skip a commercial … you're actually stealing the programming," asserts Turner Broadcasting CEO Jamie Kellner. He admits that "there's a certain amount of tolerance" for going to the bathroom during commercials."
17:41:22 <elliott> ais523: ping?
17:42:25 <ais523> pong
17:42:35 <ais523> elliott: esr converted the README to asciidoc
17:42:41 <ais523> with the result that it has random backslashes in now
17:42:54 <elliott> ais523: so, only a problem in git. right.
17:42:58 <ais523> as soon as you introduce escaping, everything goes wrong with that sort of format
17:42:59 <ais523> and yes
17:43:42 <elliott> ais523: I'll probably be wholly unreasonable and maintain my own constantly-out-of-date C-INTERCAL that has all the non-stupid things merged back in. Should I call it something else? :p
17:44:28 <ais523> nah, just change what it stands for
17:44:38 <elliott> ais523: Anyway, so there are no library dependencies?
17:45:27 <ais523> no, apart from libc and the libraries it builds itself
17:45:30 <ais523> well, cfunge, but that's optional
17:47:09 <elliott> ais523: yeah i am *not* planning to build an iffi build :)
17:50:17 -!- augur has joined.
17:50:29 <elliott> ais523: Does this look kosher to you?
17:50:35 <elliott> ./configure --prefix=
17:50:47 <elliott> make install -j$(NPROCS) DESTDIR=$1
17:50:58 <elliott> To build C-INTERCAL.
17:51:02 <elliott> s/$(NPROCS)/$NPROCS/
17:53:05 -!- iamcal has joined.
17:54:00 -!- Zuu has joined.
17:54:02 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:55:52 <elliott> ais523: please tell me if I've misrepresented your compiler :P:
17:55:53 <elliott> C-INTERCAL is an implementation of Compiler Language With No
17:55:53 <elliott> Pronounceable Acronym, abbreviated INTERCAL; it acts as a deobfuscator
17:55:53 <elliott> by translating incomprehensible INTERCAL source code into vastly more
17:55:53 <elliott> readable machine code, going through a C compiler on the way. It
17:55:53 <elliott> supports all the common INTERCAL extensions, and has good
17:55:55 <elliott> compatibility with CLC-INTERCAL.
17:56:23 <elliott> (yes, yes, I stole the deobfuscator idea from the Debian packge description)
17:56:24 <elliott> *package
17:58:24 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Abandonando).
18:06:10 <oerjan> it's not kosher, it has shrimps in it
18:07:19 <elliott> ais523: i would like to express my complaint with c-intercal's default installation directories
18:07:24 <elliott> *express a complaint
18:08:38 <elliott> ais523: specifically, /share/ick-0.29/ should in fact be called /lib/ick-0.29/ or /libexec/ick-0.29/
18:08:47 <elliott> ais523: also, you shouldn't put the version name in the dirs like that
18:10:47 -!- nooga has joined.
18:11:08 <elliott> ais523: ok i may be wrong about the share thing. but ick-0.29 is still wrong
18:11:32 <elliott> especially for include/
18:14:29 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
18:20:51 -!- jcp has joined.
18:27:44 <elliott> ais523: I fixed your bug :)
18:34:26 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:39:51 -!- jcp has joined.
18:45:29 <Vorpal> elliott, ever used cython?
18:45:42 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't think i've *used* it but i know of it, yes
18:47:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I had a reversi-playing thing to write as an assignment, using alpha-beta pruning. Course uses Python. It was kind of slow. I optimised it as much as I could to be able to increase search depth from 3 ply to something greater. So 3 ply = about 19 seconds in pure python when playing against itself.
18:47:12 <Vorpal> elliott, with cython + some type annotation = 3 seconds
18:47:13 <Vorpal> :D
18:47:19 <Vorpal> python really really sucks
18:47:36 <Vorpal> very computation heavy though
18:48:04 <Vorpal> elliott, and well, lets see what adding further type annotation will do
18:48:24 <Vorpal> 2.3 seconds now
18:50:14 <elliott> Vorpal: are you sure they'll accept Cython...
18:50:23 <elliott> Vorpal: also, Did You Try Psyco First
18:50:34 <elliott> (TM)
18:50:40 <Vorpal> elliott, no, but I'll mention it in the report to hope to make them realise how silly python is for this task :P
18:50:46 <Vorpal> elliott, also down to 1.7 seconds
18:50:58 <elliott> Vorpal: try psyco (need 32-bit python)
18:51:01 <elliott> without any cython
18:51:09 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah I would need to setup a 32-bit python somewhere
18:51:13 <Vorpal> probably needs a chroot
18:52:04 <elliott> Vorpal:
18:52:05 <elliott> # pkgcross x86 python
18:52:10 <elliott> $ /arch/x86/bin/python foo.py
18:52:12 <Vorpal> elliott, on what system?
18:52:13 <Vorpal> ....
18:52:13 <elliott> oh wait sorry you don't use kitten NEVER MIND
18:52:21 <Vorpal> elliott, I can't use it yet
18:52:25 <Vorpal> so that is pointless
18:52:35 <elliott> yeah you can you just have to implement all the bits that aren't done or that i haven't released!
18:52:41 <elliott> which is ALL of them!
18:53:48 <elliott> CFLAGS=-Os ./configure --prefix=
18:53:48 <elliott> make install -j$NPROCS ICK_SPECIFIC_SUBDIR=ick DESTDIR="$1"
18:53:53 <elliott> Vorpal: look what horrible things ick makes me do!
18:53:57 <elliott> yes indeed, I have to set a whole ONE variable!
18:54:11 <elliott> (and only then because I think it should be that way anyway :P)
18:54:16 <elliott> Also, yes, the lack of / after --prefix= is intentional.
18:54:22 <elliott> because stuff does $(prefix)/foo
18:54:24 <elliott> which would become //foo
18:56:16 <Vorpal> elliott, hah
18:56:47 <elliott> Vorpal: (ICK_SPECIFIC_SUBDIR usually includes the version, which is stupid because this way it goes into /share/ick and /include/ick like it should, not /share/ick-<version> and /include/ick-<version>)
18:57:06 <Vorpal> elliott, also down to 0.6 seconds now. cython has a nice mode where it renders to html and colour codes lines (white to yellow) to indicate how much conversion between python and C data types is going on
18:57:08 <Vorpal> rather useful
18:57:44 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
18:58:12 <elliott> is nobody on minecraft? :(
18:58:33 <Vorpal> elliott, no time today
18:59:30 <elliott> I'm at a bit of a loss as to where to build the Cube...
19:00:51 -!- jcp has joined.
19:02:42 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:09:57 <Vorpal> elliott, actually I have to say cython is quite a nice language to use. On one hand when you need speed it isn't sluggish. On the other hand you can still use "high level" stuff when you need (such as non-painful dynamically growing lists)
19:10:01 <Vorpal> and easily mix those
19:10:33 <nooga> the Cube? what?
19:13:09 <elliott> nooga: minecraft.
19:15:20 <elliott> falses = cons false falses.
19:15:20 <elliott> bch = bch1 nil falses.
19:15:20 <elliott> bch1 (state (L : Ls) Rs) (left : Ps) = bch1 (state Ls (L : Rs)) Ps.
19:15:20 <elliott> bch1 (state Ls (R : Rs)) (moustache : Ps) = bch1 (state ((not R) : Ls) Rs) Ps.
19:15:20 <elliott> bch1 (state Ls (R : Rs)) ((loop LPs) : Ps) = if R then bch1 (bch1 (bch1 Ls Rs LPs)) ((loop LPs) : Ps) else (bch1 (state Ls (R : Rs)) Ps).
19:15:22 <elliott> this better work
19:18:09 <elliott> it does not! but it is close
19:18:36 -!- cheater99 has joined.
19:29:06 <elliott> oerjan: ais523: could you delete [[Image:P''.png]]? thanks
19:31:05 <oerjan> i'm not an admin
19:33:06 <elliott> oerjan: well
19:33:07 <elliott> why not :P
19:33:34 <Slereah> Why are you programming in moustaches
19:34:32 <elliott> Slereah: it's what i call }
19:34:34 <elliott> i'm trying to do bitchanger
19:34:42 <elliott> in anemone
19:35:12 <Slereah> What's anemone?
19:35:15 <Slereah> State machine?
19:36:16 <Slereah> Oh
19:36:20 <Slereah> Just a...
19:36:22 <Slereah> What's the name
19:36:26 <Slereah> Like BNF
19:36:40 <oerjan> elliott: um you are still linking to that image from Prehistory. also that messes up the table of contents.
19:37:02 <elliott> oerjan: ' != &prime;
19:37:05 <elliott> Slereah: it's a term rewriter.
19:37:11 <elliott> not like bnf
19:37:24 <elliott> oerjan: good point about ToC, i'll fix
19:49:14 <oerjan> also presumably i'm not admin because no one has made me one
19:49:39 * oerjan now off to discover new and impressive tautologies
19:49:44 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:49:54 <ais523> elliott: you know your advice about using IE when Firefox wouldn't download executables?
19:50:15 <ais523> it seems that something had really really locked the system down, IE wouldn't download them either but at least it gave a vaguely useful error message
19:50:25 <elliott> ah
19:50:46 <elliott> ais523: I asked you a few things when you were gone; can I re-paste them?
19:50:46 <Sgeo> Hey, elliott didn't respond to anything I said in the log
19:50:49 <Sgeo> That's unusual
19:50:51 <ais523> in the end, I had to identify Microsoft's download domains and set them to trusted status in IE, and also set the security settings for trusted sites (which atm is /only/ three microsoft.com subdomains) to the lowest settings
19:50:52 <ais523> elliott: go for it
19:51:00 <elliott> <elliott> ais523: Does this look kosher to you?
19:51:00 <elliott> <elliott> ./configure --prefix=
19:51:00 <elliott> <elliott> make install -j$(NPROCS) DESTDIR=$1
19:51:00 <elliott> <elliott> To build C-INTERCAL.
19:51:00 <elliott> <elliott> s/$(NPROCS)/$NPROCS/
19:51:03 <oerjan> ais523: like, the virus you wanted to download anti-virus for? >:D
19:51:04 <elliott> <elliott> ais523: please tell me if I've misrepresented your compiler :P:
19:51:05 <elliott> <elliott> C-INTERCAL is an implementation of Compiler Language With No
19:51:05 <elliott> <elliott> Pronounceable Acronym, abbreviated INTERCAL; it acts as a deobfuscator
19:51:07 <elliott> <elliott> by translating incomprehensible INTERCAL source code into vastly more
19:51:09 <elliott> <elliott> readable machine code, going through a C compiler on the way. It
19:51:11 <elliott> <elliott> supports all the common INTERCAL extensions, and has good
19:51:13 <elliott> <elliott> compatibility with CLC-INTERCAL.
19:51:15 <elliott> <elliott> (yes, yes, I stole the deobfuscator idea from the Debian packge description)
19:51:17 <elliott> <elliott> *package
19:51:19 <elliott> <elliott> ais523: i would like to express my complaint with c-intercal's default installation directories
19:51:21 <elliott> <elliott> *express a complaint
19:51:22 <elliott> <elliott> ais523: specifically, /share/ick-0.29/ should in fact be called /lib/ick-0.29/ or /libexec/ick-0.29/
19:51:26 <elliott> <elliott> ais523: also, you shouldn't put the version name in the dirs like that
19:51:28 <elliott> <elliott> ais523: ok i may be wrong about the share thing. but ick-0.29 is still wrong
19:51:30 <elliott> <elliott> especially for include/
19:51:32 <elliott> (the last one I've managed to fix without patching the code)
19:51:34 <elliott> make install -j$NPROCS ICK_SPECIFIC_SUBDIR=ick DESTDIR="$1"
19:51:37 <ais523> elliott: the versioned dirs are a historical thing, which cause all sorts of issues
19:51:39 <elliott> ais523: and finally, the non-question that is "please delete http://esolangs.org/wiki/Image:P''.png" :P
19:51:41 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:51:48 <elliott> ais523: hmm
19:51:48 <ais523> there's a single line in the Makefile that can be changed to patch them back out
19:51:52 <ais523> also, what caused the image?
19:51:52 <elliott> ais523: you don't need to do that
19:51:55 <elliott> make install -j$NPROCS ICK_SPECIFIC_SUBDIR=ick DESTDIR="$1"
19:52:00 <elliott> ais523: I caused the image
19:52:06 <ais523> elliott: yep, but Debian prefer patching makefiles for some reason
19:52:09 <ais523> elliott: what were you trying to do?
19:52:11 <oerjan> elliott: i was just about to get ops now ;|
19:52:18 <elliott> oerjan: what, for flooding?
19:52:21 <elliott> ais523 gave me permission!
19:52:22 <elliott> ais523: get the P'' logo
19:52:27 <elliott> ais523: I've uploaded it under another name
19:52:30 <elliott> (with the prime characters)
19:52:33 <elliott> which is also easier to embed
19:52:37 <elliott> [[Image:]] doesn't like quoets
19:52:39 <elliott> *quotes
19:52:49 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:52:52 <elliott> ais523: anyway, are there any plans to set ICK_SPECIFIC_SUBDIR=ick by default in a future version?
19:52:53 <ais523> OK, done
19:52:57 -!- HackEgo has joined.
19:53:00 <ais523> elliott: no, not at the moment
19:53:10 <elliott> ais523: (btw, ick 0.-2.0.29 identifies as ick 0.29, but presumably that's intentional)
19:54:07 <ais523> elliott: indeed, alphas identify as the version they'll eventually be released as
19:54:15 -!- Gregor has joined.
19:54:38 <elliott> ais523: I'll probably stick with 0.-2.0.29 for a while, since it doesn't depend on asciidoc >:)
19:54:44 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest37696.
19:54:52 <oerjan> elliott: well it was damn hard to _notice_ the permission with all that flooding ;D
19:54:56 <elliott> ais523: btw, I should probably leave out the yacc build dependency and just use the prebuilt ones, right?
19:55:09 <ais523> elliott: I'm not sure
19:55:26 <ais523> oerjan: since when did I have permission to tell people to flood in this channel?
19:55:31 <ais523> also, are you an op? I keep losing track
19:55:33 <elliott> he's ais523
19:55:35 <oerjan> i am
19:55:36 <elliott> he has permission to do anything
19:55:44 <elliott> ais523: well, if the results would be identical whether I do or I don't, then I'll leave out the dependency to avoid wasting space
19:55:55 <ais523> also, Oozlybub and Murphy has the second best reason for its name ever, after INTERCAL
19:56:12 <ais523> elliott: they might not be if bison is upgraded to produce compatible but better output
19:56:21 <elliott> ais523: who said I'm using bison?
19:56:33 <ais523> ah
19:56:35 <elliott> ais523: heck, I'm not even using gcc :)
19:56:50 <ais523> I know SunOS lex has issues with lexer.l
19:56:50 <elliott> ais523: although I haven't yet tested C-INTERCAL with pcc
19:57:00 <ais523> because it uses hardcoded maximums, and they're too low
19:57:07 <elliott> ais523: here, I have a pcc/dietlibc toolchain here, let's see if it'll compile c-intercal
19:57:09 <ais523> you can increase the maximums with options, but seriously?
19:57:16 <ais523> elliott: I know it compiles cleanly with clang
19:57:37 <ais523> also, I had a go at getting it working with bcc (a 16-bit K&R C compiler), I can't remember whether I managed it or not
19:57:45 <elliott> ais523: by the way, I gunzipped the pax and then renamed it to .tar; am I a bad person?
19:57:51 <elliott> every package has to be /var/pkg/NAME/source.tar
19:57:55 <elliott> and I didn't feel like re-packing
19:59:29 <elliott> $ CC="$K/stage2/bin/diet -Os $K/stage2/bin/pcc" CFLAGS="" ./configure
19:59:31 <elliott> ais523: this better work!
20:00:02 <elliott> ais523: wow, that was a fast build
20:00:08 <elliott> $ time make -j3
20:00:08 <elliott> ...
20:00:09 <elliott> real0m4.847s
20:00:18 <elliott> slowest part was all that oilout stuff
20:00:19 <ais523> does it run?
20:00:28 <elliott> $ ./ick
20:00:28 <ais523> also, that's the slowest part of the build in gcc, too
20:00:28 <elliott> ICL999INO SKELETON IN MY CLOSET, WOE IS ME!
20:00:29 <elliott> ON THE WAY TO 1
20:00:29 <elliott> CORRECT SOURCE AND RESUBNIT
20:00:31 <elliott> ais523: close enough!
20:00:42 <elliott> ais523: -rwxr-xr-x 1 elliott elliott 384K Dec 2 19:59 ick
20:00:44 <ais523> elliott: hmm, I hate skeleton errors
20:00:45 <elliott> ais523: (statically linked)
20:00:54 <ais523> what if you try installing it?
20:01:00 -!- kar8nga has joined.
20:01:03 <ais523> or try ./ick -u to see where it's looking
20:01:05 <elliott> yeah, I'll just do it again with another prefix
20:01:18 <elliott> yeah, it looked in the totally wrong places
20:01:40 <elliott> ais523: anyway, 384K isn't bad, methinks
20:01:53 <oerjan> with skeleton errors you don't even have the bare bones of a solution
20:01:59 <elliott> ais523: especially considering that the dietlibc printf functions are very half-assed because felix thinks people shouldn't use them :)
20:02:07 <elliott> (they add like 7-8K to the binary)
20:02:15 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/ick-0.29$ $K/cint/bin/ick
20:02:15 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/ick-0.29$
20:02:18 <elliott> ais523: great success
20:02:30 <elliott> ais523: now, uh oh, does it know to use the CC it was compiled with?
20:03:50 <elliott> (did you ever respond to my package description? misrepresenting C-INTERCAL is incredibly shameful!)
20:04:11 <ais523> elliott: I'm not sure; it will respect the CC environment variable
20:04:24 <ais523> and it doesn't look that misrepresented, except that I find INTERCAL easier to read than the machinecode it compiles to
20:04:33 <elliott> any flag to ask it what it thinks CC is? :p
20:04:43 <elliott> ais523: what good would an *accurate* description of an INTERCAL compiler be?
20:05:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:07:10 <elliott> -rwxr-xr-x 1 elliott elliott 104K Dec 2 20:06 pi
20:07:22 <elliott> but it matches "GCC"
20:07:26 <elliott> indeed
20:07:41 <elliott> ais523: does it respect CFLAGS?
20:09:14 <ais523> elliott: I can't remember
20:09:16 <ais523> I don't think so
20:09:42 <ais523> elliott: if you use -c, the command to compile it will be dumped in the Emacs local variables header in the output
20:09:51 <elliott> yeah, I'm looking now
20:09:53 <elliott> it puts -O2 in there
20:09:55 <elliott> very irritating
20:10:19 <ais523> if you use -g, it doesn't optimise
20:10:27 <ais523> if you use -F, it goes up to -O3
20:10:48 <elliott> ais523: hmm... would you accept a patch that (1) modularised libick, so that each relevant block of code goes in its own .o, so that statically-linked INTERCAL program are smaller; (2) made it so that ick generates C programs that do not call printf and friends, directly or indirectly (instead using either fwrite or write, depending on what you'll let me get away with :)), and (3) respects CFLAGS?
20:10:55 <elliott> I could split those up, but I'm very lazy.
20:11:21 <elliott> ais523: the end result would be much smaller statically-linked programs, basically (and leaner dynamically-linked programs too, although you wouldn't really notice it)
20:11:30 <elliott> and also perhaps slightly faster, since printf is quite big
20:11:33 <elliott> emphasis on slightly
20:13:21 <ais523> elliott: splitting it up would help; I'd almost certainly accept (3), (2) and (1) are more contentious
20:13:37 <ais523> what do we use printf for in the generated C at the moment anyway?
20:13:47 <elliott> ais523: I have no idea; probably error reporting or something silly like that.
20:14:08 <elliott> ais523: I don't see why (1) should be contentious; it *only* affects libick.a, not any shared version (are there any?)
20:14:13 <ais523> what about replacing it with puts and putchar
20:14:34 <elliott> ais523: hmm... well, I wouldn't bother writing such a patch
20:14:55 <elliott> ais523: really, the improvements are: going from printf -> anything else; and going from stdio -> write(2)/read(2)
20:14:55 <ais523> elliott: changing which files exist require a) working out how they fit in with all the various permutations of build systems, b) working out which go in which version of libick.a, c) thinking up witty names for them
20:15:04 <elliott> both have a rather dramatic impact
20:15:10 <ais523> elliott: do you not have a libc that lets you set stdio as a thin wrapper?
20:15:18 <elliott> ais523: a thin wrapper? haha
20:15:24 <ais523> write(2) and read(2) aren't portable, they don't exist on Windows
20:15:32 <elliott> ais523: with the amount of stuff stdio is required to do, you can't make a thin wrapper
20:15:40 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:15:46 <elliott> ais523: also, you use autoconf right?
20:15:52 <elliott> easy enough to condition on read/write being present
20:15:53 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:16:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, mplayer is desyncing audio...
20:16:41 <Phantom_Hoover> -autosync 30 doesn't seem to help...
20:17:00 <elliott> ais523: I mean, 116K is really rather dismal, considering that useful dietlibc-based programs can be on the order of 7K.
20:17:02 -!- Guest37696 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
20:17:14 <elliott> I'd say that these changes together could lead to, say, a 30K pi, as a first estimate.
20:17:26 <elliott> Perhaps a bit bigger.
20:18:43 <pikhq> elliott: I like how you don't have /usr.
20:19:02 <elliott> pikhq: I like that too! It's yet another reason for Vorpal to say he'll never use it ever.
20:19:10 <elliott> And lord knows I don't have nearly enough of those.
20:20:09 <elliott> pikhq: Maybe I'll be all old-school Unix and make /usr the home directory. :)
20:20:24 <pikhq> Hah.
20:20:48 <elliott> pikhq: Fun fact: /usr/bin originates from the fact there was, in research unix 4 or 5 or something, a user/group named bin, whose home directory -- /usr/bin -- had a bunch of tools.
20:20:53 <elliott> pikhq: I have seen this personally on an emulator.
20:21:04 <pikhq> That's amazing.
20:22:03 <elliott> pikhq: Then some luser decided that usr didn't mean usr because there was a single directory in there with binaries, and broke up everything.
20:22:22 <elliott> And now, kids, even today, it is used to justify silly partitioning schemes where nothing has any leg room.
20:22:25 <elliott> ~th end~
20:22:26 <elliott> *the end
20:22:49 <elliott> ais523: "Berkeley Yacc (byacc) is generally conceded to be the best yacc variant available. In contrast to bison, it is written to avoid dependencies upon a particular compiler."
20:22:56 <elliott> ais523: challenge: write a less objectively-agreed-upon statement than that
20:22:58 <elliott> well, than the first sentence
20:23:12 <Vorpal> wtf: running this reversi-algorithm against itself gave a pretty pattern looking like an arrow. A symmetrical one in colours
20:23:14 <elliott> "The Holocaust is generally conceded to have been a wonderful event full of puppies and unicorns."
20:23:24 * Vorpal goes to take a screenshot
20:23:30 <elliott> (not insulting byacc, just loling at the sentence)
20:24:07 <elliott> ais523: btw, according to my understanding of BSD/MIT/GPL, I have to include the license, with copyright notice, on every system that installs the package. is this true?
20:24:11 <pikhq> elliott: "Berkeley Yacc (byacc) is the One True Yacc."
20:24:33 <elliott> pikhq: "This is not the yacc you are looking for."
20:24:50 <elliott> pikhq: "OS/2 is widely regarded to be the best and most widely-used server operating system."
20:24:52 <oerjan> berkeley yacc is best yacc
20:25:10 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:25:17 <pikhq> Just like North Korea is best Korea.
20:25:36 <elliott> pikhq: That is simply a factual statement.
20:25:40 <oerjan> THANK YOU, COMRADE OBVIOUS
20:26:04 <elliott> `addquote <oerjan> berkeley yacc is best yacc <pikhq> Just like North Korea is best Korea. <oerjan> THANK YOU, COMRADE OBVIOUS
20:26:20 <oerjan> alas, hackego just pinged out
20:26:36 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, I hear South... no, wait, they have professional StarCraft players.
20:26:45 <pikhq> oerjan: You're welcome, Comrade.
20:26:47 <elliott> oerjan: hackego totally needs to read the clog logs when it reconnects and perform all the actions there
20:26:47 <Phantom_Hoover> North is clearly superior.
20:26:50 <Vorpal> elliott, very strange result: http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/tmp/reversi-ab_prune_against_self.png
20:26:51 <elliott> (after quoting them, naturally)
20:27:01 <elliott> Vorpal: <Vorpal> wtf: running this reversi-algorithm against itself gave a pretty pattern looking like an arrow. A symmetrical one in colours
20:27:05 <elliott> Vorpal: "in colours" made me think "colourful"
20:27:07 <elliott> i am disappointed
20:27:07 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Televised and popular, no less.
20:27:13 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: They even make product endorsements.
20:27:15 <Vorpal> elliott, err what?
20:27:24 <Vorpal> elliott, how would that work?
20:27:29 <elliott> Vorpal: like N-colour reversi!
20:27:30 <elliott> somehow
20:27:33 <Vorpal> elliott, that would be nice
20:27:41 <Vorpal> elliott, but anyway, the pattern is strange
20:27:45 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, I am tempted to join the DPRK Appreciation Society.
20:28:09 <elliott> [[The My World Tour is an upcoming concert tour by Justin Bieber. It is his first official headlining tour, and is promoted by AEG Live, and Live Nation. The tour is anticipated to have multiple legs, and the supporting acts for the first will be Sean Kingston and Jessica Jarrell. Pop girl group The Stunners will also serve as an opening act for the first twenty dates. The tour is set to support his first release, My World, and its follow-up, My
20:28:10 <elliott> World 2.0. Who wants Justin the most? Decide now...
20:28:10 <elliott> CONTEST IS CLOSED. THE WINNER IS NORTH KOREA WITH 659141 VOTES]]
20:28:15 <elliott> I really hope he goes to North Korea.
20:28:17 <pikhq> "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" is such a mistranslation.
20:28:30 <elliott> pikhq: But the BEST mistranslation!
20:28:31 <pikhq> "Democratic People's Republic of Choson".
20:28:53 <elliott> pikhq: Oppressed Starver's Republic of Korea doesn't have the same ring to it.
20:29:16 <pikhq> elliott: They actually call the country Choson. For... No reason at all.
20:29:28 <elliott> corea
20:30:09 <elliott> oh, that poll isn't official
20:30:11 <elliott> LAME
20:30:45 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseon_Dynasty
20:31:28 <pikhq> oerjan: Okay, okay, so it has historical relevance.
20:31:44 <pikhq> But still: the North and South can't even agree on what to call the country.
20:32:08 <pikhq> The ROK is Han, DPRK is Choson...
20:32:47 * oerjan thought Han referred to ethnic chinese
20:32:49 <elliott> pikhq: I went to put #kitten on freenode but it's REGISTERED so I'm going to make it on OFTC^WBest Free Software Network.
20:32:59 <elliott> Be there or be oblong.
20:33:08 <elliott> obloid.
20:36:06 <Ilari> Heh... There's apparently second cause of IPv6 making things "slow" besides the "computer thinks it has IPv6 but doesn't"-problem: IPv6 routing is a lot more unstable than IPv4 routing...
20:37:58 <elliott> ais523: so can I get the green-light to use write(2)/read(2) if they're present?
20:41:57 <pikhq> Ilari: Probably something to do with *significantly* fewer routers being IPv6.
20:42:00 <elliott> pikhq is just not cool enough for OFTC.
20:45:15 <Ilari> Or actually it is "computer doesn't have a route to destination via IPv6" problem.
20:45:37 <elliott> OFTC once declared war on pikhq.
20:46:28 * Phantom_Hoover declares war on pikhq.
20:47:31 * pikhq declares pikhq on war
20:48:07 <elliott> pikhq: OFTC! #KITTEN! SQUARENESS DONATED TO ALL NOT PRESENT!
20:48:32 <Ilari> Or the great IPv6 routing split...
20:51:12 <pikhq> Ilari: ?
20:51:45 <Ilari> Some IPv6 upstreams have seriously incomplete routing table...
20:51:53 <pikhq> *facepalm*
20:53:05 -!- Gregor has joined.
20:53:10 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest24183.
20:53:18 <Ilari> Fun issues ensue if are trying to reach host that is unroutable over IPv6 but reachable over IPv4.
20:53:39 -!- Guest24183 has changed nick to Gregor.
20:54:16 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_(trilobite)
20:55:04 <oerjan> Gregor: yon bots are dead
20:55:19 <elliott> bon mots are dead
20:55:20 -!- wareya_ has joined.
20:57:11 <Gregor> oerjan: My friggin' everything was dead, patience :P
20:58:22 -!- HackEgo has joined.
20:58:22 -!- EgoBot has joined.
20:58:25 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:59:00 <elliott> Gregor: PRGMR RELIABLE UPTIME
21:04:16 <pikhq> *pfft*
21:04:29 <pikhq> NASA discovers life form that uses arsenic instead of phosphorous.
21:04:52 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, hmm.
21:04:54 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:05:00 <pikhq> That's... Woah.
21:05:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, yes, yes it is.
21:05:18 <Phantom_Hoover> They _don't have DNA or RNA_.
21:05:39 <pikhq> Yes, they have completely different nucleic acids.
21:06:01 <elliott> Yes.
21:06:07 <elliott> Arse-nic.
21:06:26 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:08:28 <Ilari> Actually, apparetly only the PO4 linking groups have been replaced by AsO4 groups...
21:10:39 <pikhq> That's still pretty astounding.
21:12:13 -!- fizzie has joined.
21:19:07 -!- sjn has joined.
21:19:24 -!- sjn has left (?).
21:22:02 <elliott> brb
21:29:33 <Phantom_Hoover> How do I get this bloody computer to tell me my CPU model?
21:30:12 <oerjan> PRAY
21:32:08 <Phantom_Hoover> O god, tell me in thine infinite wisdom the model of mine unworthy CPU.
21:33:11 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
21:34:21 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:47:05 -!- kar8nga has joined.
21:51:43 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:58:21 -!- Zuu has joined.
22:03:36 -!- perdito|afk has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:03:46 <pikhq> x264 is officially ridiculous.
22:03:52 <pikhq> http://x264.nl/developers/Dark_Shikari/Flash/UltraLowBitrateAnime.mp4 67 kbps encode.
22:04:02 <pikhq> I did not omit a digit there.
22:04:09 <pikhq> Sixty-seven kilobits per second.
22:06:00 <elliott> ha
22:08:13 <pikhq> And Dark Shikari claims he should redo that encode, because x264 has gotten better since.
22:12:59 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:22:12 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:29:52 <elliott> fog
22:32:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: MC
22:32:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Nooooooooooooooooooooooo
22:32:43 <Phantom_Hoover> You: addicted.
22:32:52 <Phantom_Hoover> YOU HAVE BECOME AS UNTO VORPAL
22:34:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Actually, I'm just bored and MC without anyone else there is boring.
22:34:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what? don't insult me. I had other stuff to to today. I haven't been on
22:35:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I was actually mocking elliott there.
22:35:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and insulting me at the same time
22:35:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Since he went on about you being addicted whenever the server died and you asked ineiros why.
22:35:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed :P
22:35:56 <Vorpal> he is way more addicted than me
22:36:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Seriously?
22:36:20 <elliott> I don't actually play often at all.
22:36:22 <Vorpal> I just hated being interrupted in a task.
22:36:25 <Vorpal> in any task
22:36:25 <elliott> I haven't mined in days.
22:36:32 <elliott> In fact I've done nothing in days.
22:36:35 <Vorpal> elliott, you been on doing other stuff though
22:36:40 <elliott> Vorpal: Like?
22:36:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I saw you jumping that water fall
22:36:56 <elliott> Which waterfall? The one you made yesterday?
22:37:02 <Vorpal> elliott, the one I made yes
22:37:15 <elliott> You did that and *also* made it, so that does not demonstrate that I am "way more" addicted in any way.
22:37:19 <elliott> It just demonstrates that I do in fact play it.
22:37:40 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed but you have been complaining about no one being on today
22:37:48 <Vorpal> elliott, I almost never complained about the place being empty
22:38:01 <elliott> Because I've been rather bored today. Also I think I've complained twice.
22:38:16 <Vorpal> okay, I haven't counted
22:38:21 <elliott> 10:58:12 <elliott> is nobody on minecraft? :(
22:38:24 <elliott> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: MC
22:38:27 <elliott> that's all
22:38:36 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway then you don't have to chat with people, instead you can get on building stuff!
22:38:39 <elliott> ok, I also bugged Phantom_Hoover about it in #kitten :P
22:38:49 <elliott> Vorpal: The only thing I want to build is the Cube and that needs the Server.
22:39:05 <Vorpal> elliott, you could locate an area, and start marking out the boundaries
22:39:21 <Vorpal> elliott, stuff like that just need a handful of dirt or cobblestone blocks
22:39:22 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you bugged me because you couldn't deal with the fact that a photo of a kitten is not in fact a very good logo.
22:39:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, photos are almost never good logos
22:39:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, as I told him!
22:39:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Not only was it a kitten, it was *on a computer*.
22:39:57 <Vorpal> logos need to be more... symbolic, line art
22:40:00 <elliott> Are you suggesting that there is something better than a kitten on a computer for ANY PURPOSE WHATSOEVER?
22:40:07 <Vorpal> elliott, it would work if it was lineart of a kitten on a computer
22:40:10 <Vorpal> but a photo: no
22:40:12 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, you could locate an area, and start marking out the boundaries
22:40:12 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, stuff like that just need a handful of dirt or cobblestone blocks
22:40:17 <elliott> i'm fairly sure I need to make my own sea.
22:40:20 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, but it was a photo! And a jpeg! With a detailed and necessary background!
22:40:22 <Vorpal> elliott, hm
22:40:35 <pikhq> http://filebin.ca/tvzvtn/sintel_trailer-240-pass3.mkv
22:40:41 <pikhq> It's a 768k video.
22:40:42 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> make your own sea with cobblestone blocks
22:40:44 <pikhq> And it doesn't look bad.
22:40:50 <pikhq> (aside from being 240p)
22:40:54 <Vorpal> elliott, I suggest to the east because it will be closer to spawn than any other suitably large area
22:41:12 <Vorpal> elliott, and minecarts will be close. Skyway will need a bit more
22:41:15 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't care about proximity to spawn, only civilisation.
22:41:22 <Phantom_Hoover> "The Blender Foundation".
22:41:23 <elliott> Also Server said that he probably doesn't want it within 500 metres of spawn.
22:41:26 <Vorpal> elliott, well, it is close to civilisation too
22:41:34 <Vorpal> elliott, hm
22:41:39 <Vorpal> elliott, north-west then?
22:41:53 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, if that isn't related with the Society for the Advancement of Blenders I will be sorely disappointed.
22:41:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Perhaps. Or I could just flood a large area on the path of the skyway from Vorpal to Hoover.
22:42:02 <pikhq> I ♥ x264.
22:42:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Blender as in the 3D tool.
22:42:10 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, sssshhhhh!
22:42:11 <Vorpal> elliott, that would work too
22:42:19 <elliott> Vorpal: I'd also need TNT to get rid of some of the bigger mountains, probably.
22:42:35 <Vorpal> elliott, as long as it is out of sight from my extruding glass room
22:42:39 <Vorpal> elliott, (on far)
22:42:47 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, how many opinions do you have about multimedia encoding?
22:42:57 <Vorpal> elliott, or if visible on far, at least some distance away
22:42:59 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Many!
22:43:09 <elliott> Vorpal: If it isn't, that's not my fault; you don't own a huge radius around your mountain.
22:43:12 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Rule #1: x264 is the best. Period.
22:43:14 <elliott> Anyway, it's made out of glass, dammit, it's transparent.
22:43:19 <Vorpal> elliott, I want a nature view, not looking up the side of an industrial building :P
22:43:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah... you do realise this thing is gonna be darn pretty, right?
22:43:50 <elliott> It's ENTIRELY MADE OUT OF GLASS. With nice LAVA making it shine.
22:43:53 <Vorpal> elliott, and yes sure but not completely, anyway that valley below the skyway entrance I have built stuff like a lava fall in
22:43:59 <Vorpal> elliott, sure it is, but so is the nature
22:43:59 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, why?
22:44:02 <elliott> Well I'm not building /there/.
22:44:07 <Vorpal> elliott, :)
22:44:10 <elliott> Probably 1/3 of the way to Hoover or whatever.
22:44:14 <elliott> Wherever is flattest.
22:44:16 <Vorpal> elliott, that should be fine
22:44:22 <Vorpal> probably
22:44:51 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It is literally the best encoder. To match its quality with an encoder for any *other* compression scheme, you need to *at least double* the bit rate.
22:44:54 <Vorpal> checking on map atm
22:45:16 <elliott> pikhq: Such a shame that H.264 is so proprietary.
22:45:43 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: And for h.264, it is similar in quality but slightly higher than the highest-quality proprietary encoder, and it beats all the others about as badly as it beats, say, MPEG-2 encoders.
22:45:56 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Quit: Quit).
22:46:08 <pikhq> elliott: It is a shame, indeed.
22:46:58 <Vorpal> elliott, you see that kind of rectangular mountain on http://a322.org/mc/topo-2010-11-29.png between me and PH? Just above the skyway. Quite close to my place. There is a blue area below it (lake). Beyond that mountain is quite flat. Why not there (and save the mountain as it is, it is pretty)
22:47:09 <Vorpal> elliott, it seems to be a solution that fits everyone
22:47:29 <Phantom_Hoover> The UK doesn't acknowledge software patents, does it?
22:47:32 <elliott> <pikhq> http://x264.nl/developers/Dark_Shikari/Flash/UltraLowBitrateAnime.mp4 67 kbps encode.
22:47:34 <elliott> just actually played this
22:47:43 <elliott> w.t.f. pikhq i was expecting lameish quality
22:47:47 <pikhq> elliott: And that's an *old* demonstration.
22:47:48 <elliott> it's better than youtube!
22:47:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Maybe. I'll see about it.
22:48:13 <elliott> Vorpal: I would prefer to use an existing sea. (Are there any known seas that are 128x128 big?)
22:48:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:48:19 <elliott> 128x128 is pretty big.
22:48:29 <elliott> In fact, how far does Far see?
22:49:05 <pikhq> elliott: If you reduce the resolution to about what Youtube uses for its lowest-quality videos, but keep the bit rate, you end up having an almost transparent encode.
22:49:12 -!- Sasha2 has joined.
22:49:13 <pikhq> See my filebin post.
22:49:37 <elliott> pikhq: Hmm... I just had a stupid thought that maybe might sorta work.
22:49:53 <Vorpal> elliott, hm
22:50:05 <Vorpal> <elliott> In fact, how far does Far see? <-- not sure, pretty far
22:50:10 <elliott> pikhq: Have lossy x264 encoding. For each frame, store a compressed -- PNG or whatever -- image diff of the lossy encoding to the lossless (i.e. lossless - lossy or whatever)
22:50:19 <elliott> Vorpal: 128 blocks far?
22:50:28 <Vorpal> elliott, more than that I think
22:50:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Aww.
22:50:37 <Vorpal> elliott, I can see from me to fizzie
22:50:44 <Vorpal> elliott, a bit more than that
22:50:45 <pikhq> I'm not sure that would be an *astounding* lossless compression scheme, but it would certainly work decently.
22:50:47 <elliott> That's not 128, I don't think.
22:51:00 <elliott> pikhq: Would it beat your zero-quantisation encodes?
22:51:10 <fizzie> Far sees a bit less than 200 blocks, but I'd say it's over 128.
22:51:20 <elliott> pikhq: I can't imagine the diffs being *too* big, even on a relatively low bitrate...
22:51:24 <fizzie> You can almost see the other end of PH's ship from one end.
22:51:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I'll measure on the map
22:51:31 <pikhq> elliott: I don't *think* so.
22:51:32 <elliott> pikhq: Then again, it is every single frame...
22:51:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed
22:51:42 -!- Sasha has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:51:51 <pikhq> elliott: Though it would probably beat everything not x264 anyways. :P
22:52:00 <elliott> "You Must Learn JavaScript" ;; no I mustn't, you webfag.
22:52:23 <elliott> "It’s my belief that every single programmer should learn JavaScript." ;; one day you will discover that people write programs that don't get shown in Safari
22:52:43 <elliott> "Knowing JavaScript well is probably one of the most challenging and rewarding things you can do as a programmer."
22:52:44 <elliott> what?
22:52:48 <elliott> how is learning javascript challenging at all
22:52:50 <Vorpal> elliott, about 190 I'd say
22:53:06 <fizzie> Could even be 192. :p
22:53:12 <elliott> Probably 192, yeah.
22:53:12 <Vorpal> something like that
22:53:13 <elliott> :p
22:53:20 <Vorpal> it is approx, I measured on map
22:53:31 <elliott> Yeah, but there's no power of two near 192 other than... 192.
22:53:37 <Vorpal> indeed
22:53:44 <elliott> erm
22:53:46 <elliott> Yeah, but there's no power of two near 190 other than... 192.
22:53:55 <fizzie> 192 is not a power of two either, but still.
22:54:14 <Vorpal> elliott, and I believe it might be inexact. As in: a chunk is either visible or not
22:54:29 <Vorpal> the distance I measured was diagonal
22:54:33 <Vorpal> so that would be relevant
22:54:46 <elliott> fizzie: Close enough!
22:55:14 <fizzie> elliott: As for existing seas, a 128x128 block would fit to the big sea that's to east of spawn (not immediately east, but further; it starts about as far from spawn than Mt. Vorpal is, euclidinially speaking.
22:55:23 <pikhq> elliott: BTW: Youtube's video bitrates start at 250kbps and go up from there.
22:55:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I can see a distance that is at least 194 (near upper door entrance to end of huge stairs
22:55:57 <elliott> pikhq: Is it just me, or do YouTube videos load painfully slowly?
22:55:59 <Vorpal> elliott, which indicates it is probably per chunk
22:56:02 <pikhq> That's 250kbps for the 240p videos they had at the very start of the site.
22:56:02 <Vorpal> not per block
22:56:20 <elliott> fizzie: Yeah, but Server doesn't really want it within 500 blocks of spawn.
22:56:30 <elliott> fizzie: So I'm better off starting at civilisation and going from there.
22:56:45 <Vorpal> elliott, it would be 300 blocks away
22:56:49 <fizzie> Well, you could fit two 128x128 blocks in the big seas to the west, but those are pretty far.
22:56:50 <Vorpal> definitely not visible from spawn
22:57:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, not in one of them any more
22:57:27 <elliott> fizzie: I do not plan to make *two* 128x128x128 cubes. :p
22:57:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Hm?
22:57:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, presumably you mean the one with a reed-lined shore?
22:58:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, near that "easter egg"?
22:58:03 <fizzie> No, I meant the other one.
22:58:20 <fizzie> To north of the reed-lined-shore one.
22:58:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah because I built a free-standing waterfall over ther
22:58:28 <Vorpal> right
22:58:29 <fizzie> Yes, I saw it.
22:58:33 <Vorpal> ah
22:58:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, tried it with a boat?
22:58:49 <fizzie> Yes. (I borrowed your boat.)
22:59:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, right
22:59:59 <elliott> fizzie: Are *you* too boring to Minecraft today, too?
23:00:21 <fizzie> Yes, I'm just about to go to sleep, actually.
23:00:29 <elliott> fizzie: So boering.
23:05:31 <elliott> test
23:06:35 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:06:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I'll make a map with some suggestions for possible placements within existing oceans
23:06:54 <pikhq> Also fun: the source video, at 480p lossless x264, hits DVD target bitrates...
23:08:21 <fizzie> Incidentally, I head-estimated some numbers earlier. If you intend to empty 128x128x16 (a very low-end estimate assuming depth of 16) blocks of water one by one, and assuming one operation per second (I'm not sure what sort of overall throughput you'd get, but it's in the ballpark) that's take 262144 seconds = about 72 solid hours.
23:09:14 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, yes; I'm trying to think of *other* ways to drain the water other than doing it block-by-block.
23:09:30 <elliott> fizzie: Suggestions welcome :P
23:09:32 <elliott> Does TNT work in water?
23:12:01 <Vorpal> elliott, no
23:12:03 <elliott> fizzie's silence is not reassuring.
23:12:21 <fizzie> I've read something about safely removing TNT by detonating it underwater, so I'd guess no.
23:12:28 <Vorpal> elliott, TNT still generate shockwave in water. But it does not destroy blocks
23:12:33 <Vorpal> this is used to build TNT cannons
23:13:13 <fizzie> The wiki-page says "TNT can clear water and lava. -- However, if the TNT falls in water, the explosion will not destroy any blocks at all but still cause damage." -- which is quite unclear.
23:13:20 <fizzie> Also, smelting 128*128*16 (cube walls and ten interior levels, again a rather low estimate) blocks of sand into glass will take 728 hours (30 days). (And burn 32768 blocks of coal, or 2622 buckets of lava.)
23:13:54 <elliott> fizzie: Um, I was going to get the sand delivered to me in glass form.
23:14:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about placing the blocks assuming he had the glass?
23:14:20 <elliott> I think skipping the many-months-long process of gathering 81 thousand blocks of sand and smelting them all, which is trivially feasible, just really boring, is acceptable.
23:15:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, it's the same amount of blocks than in the water estimate earlier, so assuming block/second throughput, another 72 hours.
23:15:23 <Vorpal> elliott, fizzie: http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/tmp/placement.png
23:15:26 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:15:26 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host).
23:15:26 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:15:55 <Vorpal> elliott, alt 3 which would be best is within 500 blocks
23:15:55 <elliott> fizzie: Anyway, I'd actually have to empty 128*128*64 blocks of water.
23:16:13 <elliott> I think 500 blocks was... not entirely serious.
23:16:14 <Vorpal> elliott, no. Since water only goes down to about 50
23:16:15 <Vorpal> so
23:16:22 <Vorpal> 64-50 for height
23:16:28 <elliott> Well, okay, but definitely not 16.
23:16:36 <elliott> fizzie: Anyway I'd build the actual levels over a long period of time.
23:16:39 <fizzie> 64-50 is 14.
23:16:39 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. that is 14
23:16:40 <Vorpal> :P
23:16:54 <fizzie> The seas aren't very deep.
23:17:15 <Vorpal> indeed. And going down to 50 is rare. 52-53 is much more common
23:17:23 <Vorpal> with a few smaller pits of 50 or so
23:17:24 <elliott> True.
23:17:28 <fizzie> Still, you'd need to empty up that much space in general, so there.
23:17:41 <Vorpal> and you only get 52 out near the middle
23:17:42 <Vorpal> so yeah
23:17:49 <elliott> Anyway, I never said it'd be easy. :p
23:17:57 <Vorpal> elliott, still you need to mine a shitload of stuff below the sea
23:18:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Or just use TNT...
23:18:21 <fizzie> If you can conjure up sand/grovel, I think the fastest way of getting rid of water is to just keep placing those blocks to fill it all up (they fall, so you can do a whole column without moving), then shovel/blow-up them away.
23:18:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could do the torch trick
23:18:51 <elliott> fizzie: Problem is, I'd have to have walls in place already... meaning TNT would be unwise.
23:19:05 <fizzie> You could TNT in the middle, though.
23:19:16 <elliott> True.
23:19:17 <Vorpal> still a shitload of TNT to do it
23:19:20 <fizzie> And anyway, shovels are fast, faster than "take a bucket, dump it down".
23:19:22 <Vorpal> not sure I'd trust you with that
23:19:30 <Vorpal> (if I was that admin that is)
23:19:46 <elliott> fizzie: I would do 9 buckets at a time, obviously.
23:19:48 <elliott> But yeah.
23:19:59 <Vorpal> elliott, how would 9 buckets help?
23:20:01 -!- Sasha has joined.
23:20:03 -!- Sasha2 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:20:07 <Vorpal> elliott, elliott you can just empty it into another source
23:20:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Larger period of monotony.
23:20:14 <Vorpal> elliott, next to the one you are removing
23:20:19 <Vorpal> elliott, which is probably faster
23:20:22 <elliott> Oh, you can? Compress two sources?
23:20:23 <elliott> Weird.
23:20:41 <Vorpal> elliott, it's minecraft, what did you expect?
23:20:52 <elliott> fizzie: Anyway, conjuring up sand is not the issue here, as I've established. :p
23:21:21 <elliott> Anyway, those who help construct it get bigger free-rented spaces.
23:21:26 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway since you don't plan water on top of the thing, getting rid of currents at the end should be ni issues
23:21:28 <Vorpal> issue*
23:22:00 <Vorpal> elliott, I can provide a shitload of cobblestone to help you with it certainly. For scaffolding and such
23:22:06 <Vorpal> also a shitload of dirt
23:22:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Work is more valuable than materials. :p
23:22:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I have at least one large chest full of cobble + several partly filled ones
23:22:43 <Vorpal> elliott, dirt: almost one filled
23:22:45 <Vorpal> (not completely)
23:22:47 <fizzie> Incidentally, in order to give you 128*128*16 blocks of time, ineiros will have to repeat the /give command 4096 times, and it'd be 152 inventories worth. So I'd think you'd perhaps better wait until hMod time before the building in order for not to have to ask for glass all the time.
23:22:55 <elliott> fizzie: He said he was going to automate it.
23:23:09 <elliott> fizzie: He *can* just create a file with a huge number of commands, you know, and paste it in.
23:23:19 <Vorpal> elliott, still you can decide on a place and put out markers there
23:23:24 <Vorpal> elliott, that you can do today
23:23:32 <Vorpal> elliott, so which of those places do you think is best?
23:23:35 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm not going to be awake for long enough to research all the places today.
23:23:47 <fizzie> Yes, but you can't really get more than one inventory full of glass at a time, the rest will probably go and disappear before you have time to get them.
23:23:49 <Vorpal> elliott, you saw the map I linked?
23:24:10 <Vorpal> elliott, it is basically one of them if you don't want to be WAAY off from civilisation or have to build your own sea
23:24:18 <Vorpal> and building your own sea is probably more work
23:24:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, but more impressive. :p
23:24:50 <elliott> Vorpal: (And I wouldn't have to empty anything, if I built the underwater bit of the cube first.
23:24:51 <Vorpal> elliott, you know that the water-source duplication thing only happens on a flat surface right?
23:24:56 <Vorpal> elliott, up to altitude 1
23:24:59 <Vorpal> as in
23:25:02 <fizzie> You could've crop-to-selection'd the map a bit. :p
23:25:10 <Vorpal> you will have to build layer by layer down
23:25:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah...
23:25:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, there are other sites further away
23:25:22 <elliott> Vorpal: But I can get walls in before that.
23:25:23 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
23:25:29 <Vorpal> elliott, so I think emptying it will be less work
23:25:37 <elliott> Vorpal: What I really need to do is get a bitmap image 128x128, side view, zoom in, and start planning.
23:25:38 <Vorpal> elliott, unless you want like a 2x wide channel around it
23:25:48 <elliott> I need to figure out how many floors there'll be, how to make sure level 0 has a floor there, etc.