00:00:22 <olsner> I think polypoly is a CMS system
00:03:27 <ion> poly wants a cookie
00:03:48 <oerjan> boily: i'm sorry, that must clearly be rholy- greek r is always aspirated hth
00:31:46 <boily> `learn A rholypoly is an edible Greek species of Armadillidiidae. Goes well with garlic!
00:33:12 <oerjan> gah i think this packet of orange juice is unusually sour
00:47:06 <kmc> orange juice comes in packets?
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00:48:02 <kmc> what's this about lovers and wives and poly
00:48:05 <kmc> also why is Quintopia capitalized today
00:50:01 <oerjan> kmc: http://www.supermarket.no/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/235x/f6f16b5d1c90e7b178d9c9bcfc699527/s/u/sunniva-orginal-appelsinjuice-1_75-l.jpg
00:51:55 <boily> Quintopia is in a permanent state of being capitalized.
00:53:02 <Quintopia> in other channel there is a quanticle
00:53:29 <Quintopia> i thought a case difference might help
00:54:03 <Quintopia> also hi boily, would you like to know what i am most likely to be doing at a given hour of a random day?
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00:57:47 <Quintopia> i don't like that brainfuck survey. i want to answer "this and this and this are all good choices" and "it depends" for all of them
00:59:29 <olsner> a standard that just enumerates all possible behaviors without specifying anything sounds pretty good
00:59:43 <olsner> if a standard is what the survey is supposed to produce
00:59:56 <Quintopia> "notsleeping" means "i should be asleep but i'm doing some other random crap". if i filter out "notsleeping" and "bed" those four hours become "blog, sleeping, sleeping, sleeping"
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01:01:17 <Quintopia> http://ibin.co/1OMr2pMlF2v4 this is the same thing but on the weekend
01:04:47 <boily> is that localtime?
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01:08:45 <Quintopia> yes that's US eastern time (adjusted for dst as necessary?)
01:10:22 <boily> your timezone is misaligned hth
01:11:09 <boily> I had one one summer. I was working from 5pm up until about 2am.
01:11:30 <boily> I remember 'tis was the summer where I watched the Fullmetal Panic the first time.
01:12:26 <Quintopia> is that related to full metal jacket?
01:14:26 <boily> it's too late for me to properly conjugate.
01:14:49 <Quintopia> it's never too late! even the dead can learn to read!
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01:15:48 <kmc> what kind?
01:16:30 <lambdabot> foldr f z (x:xs) = f x (foldr f z xs)
01:16:40 <boily> grammatical workout!
01:17:58 <oerjan> int-e: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23969963/printing-definitions-of-functions-classes-in-ghci-with-lambdabot
01:19:14 <oerjan> i think the answer is "lambdabot can't do that" but i'm not sure enough to answer.
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01:22:41 <oerjan> @tell int-e http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23969963/printing-definitions-of-functions-classes-in-ghci-with-lambdabot
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01:48:52 <metasepia> CYUL 010100Z 11006KT 30SM SCT240 18/09 A3029 RMK CI4 SLP257
01:48:57 <boily> windows open tonight.
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01:58:38 <Quintopia> someone tell me how it works (and whether it is correct) http://bpaste.net/show/326061/
02:03:37 <fowl> Quintopia, you should hire back the wizards who wrote this
02:05:44 <Quintopia> it's supposed to count the number of paths of length at least 1 in a 3x3 grid
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02:20:27 <oerjan> Quintopia: looks plausible hth
02:22:30 <oerjan> although this made not be one of the cases where StateT is clearer than explicit accumulator passing :P
02:23:37 <oerjan> and adjacents might seem a little inefficient (no caching of results)
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02:28:20 <oerjan> Quintopia: perhaps it would help if i unraveled the StateT part? walk (visited@(cur:_) = do next <- adjacents cur; if (next `elem` visited) then return visited else (walk (next:visited)) ... oh wait there's a bug.
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02:29:12 <oerjan> Quintopia: nope it's not correct because it will duplicate final paths if there is more than one already visited cell to the final one
02:33:03 <oerjan> let walk :: StateT [(Integer, Integer)] [] (); walk = do {visited@(cur:_) <- get; next <- lift (adjacents cur); unless (next `elem` visited) (modify (next:) >> walk)}
02:34:07 <oerjan> let walk :: StateT [(Integer, Integer)] [] (); walk = do {visited@(cur:_) <- get; next <- lift (adjacents cur); guard (next `notElem` visited); (modify (next:) >> (get `mplus` walk)}
02:34:47 <zzo38> I saw that someone did make up a "co-do-notation", which they called "method-notation".
02:36:14 <oerjan> i recall there was a discussion about whether comonad notation was method calls. i don't think everyone agreed.
02:37:06 <oerjan> let walk :: StateT [(Integer, Integer)] [] (); walk = do {visited@(cur:_) <- get; next <- lift (adjacents cur); guard (next `notElem` visited); (modify (next:) >> (return () `mplus` walk)}
02:38:03 <oerjan> it doesn't matter what it returns since it's extracting just the state anyway.
02:38:53 <oerjan> i _think_ that will work but someone might want to test it.
02:39:55 <zzo38> I don't know if it is like method calls either, but I can see how it work. It is similar to a do-notation, and you can bind variables, but instead of giving a wrapped result and the variable's value is unwrapped, it is other way around; furthermore, there is a implicit variable "this" which is defined as the current value of the object at the current step. It can be call method-notation, whether or not it is resembling method calls.
02:40:27 <zzo38> Even just like, do-notation does not necessarily have to sequence actions either.
02:41:26 <Quintopia> oerjan: just can you tell me what result it gives? i don't have haskell set up here
02:41:41 <oerjan> wait you want _me_ to test it, how awkward
02:42:09 <zzo38> Quintopia: You can also run Haskell codes on lambdabot and on HackEgo
02:43:17 <Quintopia> i think i would fail miserably if i tried that
02:44:14 <oerjan> oh mismatched parenthesis
02:44:24 <oerjan> let walk :: StateT [(Integer, Integer)] [] (); walk = do {visited@(cur:_) <- get; next <- lift (adjacents cur); guard (next `notElem` visited); modify (next:) >> (return () `mplus` walk)}
02:45:59 <elliott> oerjan: (return () `mplus` ...) actually does something?
02:46:11 <oerjan> of course this would be just the time for that autoscrolling bug of my touchpad driver to happen
02:46:27 <oerjan> Quintopia: result is 644 hth
02:47:23 <oerjan> elliott: sure, in this case the return () gives an alternative which halts the computation there with the current path, and then the part after does the prolonging alternative.
02:47:35 <elliott> > return () `mplus` [1,2,3]
02:47:37 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num ()) arising from the literal ‘1’
02:47:42 <elliott> > return 0 `mplus` [1,2,3]
02:47:54 <Quintopia> oerjan: and this counts a->b and b->a as separate paths, yes?
02:47:54 <oerjan> the current path being in the StateT state
02:48:11 <oerjan> Quintopia: yes. also it does not repeat cells in the path.
02:48:59 <oerjan> well you can trust me, but _i_ don't trust that code not to have bugs hth
02:50:09 <Quintopia> but my faith that your code is correct is higher than my faith that random guy's code is correct
02:50:14 <oerjan> although the first 5 elements of paths do look plausible
02:50:39 <oerjan> [[(1,0),(0,0)],[(2,0),(1,0),(0,0)],[(2,1),(2,0),(1,0),(0,0)],[(1,1),(2,1),(2,0),(1,0),(0,0)],[(0,1),(1,1),(2,1),(2,0),(1,0),(0,0)]]
02:51:07 <oerjan> (the paths are backwards from the point the search starts)
02:51:39 <oerjan> there are 9 cells so, hm...
02:53:32 <oerjan> that's like a slightly better overestimate
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02:53:51 <Quintopia> the best underestimate i can think of is 256
02:54:14 <oerjan> and with some cells only having 1-3 neighbors - oh wait, except for the first only 3 can be used...
02:54:55 <oerjan> still an overestimate. i don't think it's so implausible that it's 644.
02:55:39 <Quintopia> that doesn't say much for the security of the combo lock on my smartphone then
02:55:41 <oerjan> i forgot paths don't all have length exactly 9. not that i think that matters much for this estimate.
02:55:59 <Quintopia> unless it locks down after too many wrong attempts. i don't think it does.
02:56:53 <oerjan> zzo38: actually HackEgo no longer has haskell
02:57:59 <Quintopia> oerjan: could you better explain me the bug you fixed. something like if the final node is adjacent to two visited vertices it counts the path twice?
02:58:42 <oerjan> <elliott> right, okay. weird <-- the StateT ... [] () just lifts the mplus of the underlying [] monad, btw
02:59:22 <zzo38> WHy does it no longer have Haskell though?
02:59:42 <oerjan> zzo38: Gregor didn't install haskell on the new server when he moved HackEgo
03:01:03 <zzo38> O, well you can still use Haskell on lambdabot although there are various restrictions if you do that.
03:01:50 <oerjan> Quintopia: yep, because the unless (next `elem` visited) test happens _after_ next has already been selected and thus, if the test fails for two different next's, they give two different "parallel computations" with the same result.
03:01:53 <zzo38> You could also see if you have access to a telnet or SSH with Haskell installed
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03:05:20 <oerjan> while my version works by simply failing the computation with no result at all in that case, and instead doing a return () before the recursive walk
03:06:16 <Quintopia> oerjan: the guy who wrote it thinks it's "obvious" that the test will happen after next has been selected. why does it fail in that case?
03:07:46 <oerjan> Quintopia: it fails because a result path is counted once for each "next" that stops it
03:09:01 <oerjan> and the next is not itself included in that path
03:16:13 <oerjan> Quintopia: yes, and so?
03:17:20 <Quintopia> he tested the line you pasted above and said it failed
03:18:03 <oerjan> i did fix a mismatched parenthesis
03:20:07 <oerjan> it should be let walk :: StateT [(Integer, Integer)] [] (); walk = do {visited@(cur:_) <- get; next <- lift (adjacents cur); guard (next `notElem` visited); modify (next:) >> (return () `mplus` walk)}
03:21:37 <oerjan> did he remember to include the other lines from the pastebin?
03:22:03 <Quintopia> i would assume so. they were in his repl after all
03:22:30 <oerjan> and also to re-let the following ones
03:22:36 <oerjan> so they use the new version
03:22:49 <oerjan> what kind of failure did he get
03:23:38 <oerjan> if he pasted from irssi there may be formatting problems due to line wrapping (i had to fix that)
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03:27:34 <oerjan> mapM_ (print.reverse) $ take 30 paths looks precisely as i would expect, and there are no duplicate paths.
03:28:38 <oerjan> ^v: are you a russian encrypted channel
03:29:49 <oerjan> Quintopia: well, not much i can do to help without a bug report hth
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03:37:56 <oerjan> so i did, confusion cleared up now
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03:40:24 <oerjan> ^v: we now agree that my haskell definition seems to work
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04:46:46 <zzo38> I am writing the C library for VM360, which is based on Ada/CS Object Machine, which is based on IBM 360/370 series mainframe computers.
04:47:44 <mcpherrin> zzo38: the IBM 360 was a sweet computer
04:48:05 <zzo38> mcpherrin: I don't know much about it though.
04:48:38 <mcpherrin> zzo38: a bunch of my coworkers used them
04:48:57 <mcpherrin> they were microcoded, which was pretty aweomse
04:49:21 <zzo38> Yes, I think it would be
04:49:38 <mcpherrin> apparently the IBM techs had various debugging microcode they could use
04:50:53 <mcpherrin> It would be sweet if you could get the actual microcode and run that in an emulator
04:52:07 <zzo38> Yes it could, but I don't have any such thing, nor is it what I am making.
04:59:18 <zzo38> How do I detect floating point underflow in a C code?
05:00:12 <^v> making malbolge
05:01:28 <^v> oh and it uses base 9
05:02:27 <Bike> ^v: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Most_ever_Brainfuckiest_Fuck_you_Brain_fucker_Fuck
05:03:58 <^v> > and take its decimal expansion
05:03:59 <lambdabot> ‘ito’ (imported from Control.Lens),
05:03:59 <lambdabot> ‘bits’ (imported from Data.Bits.Lens)Not in scope: ‘expansion’
05:04:03 <^v> > then you go fuck yourself.
05:04:04 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘then’
05:04:09 <^v> lambdabot, stahp
05:04:34 * ^v beats the shit out of lambdabot until it stops beeping
05:04:58 <^v> elliott, NOTICE atleast ;-;
05:05:01 <Bike> anyway: malbolge in a hilbert space
05:05:10 <elliott> it discourages starting lines with >
05:05:22 <^v> show the "not in scope" then notice them the "peraps you meant"
05:09:47 <^v> would anyone even want to try to use my malbolge?
05:29:17 <^v> Talk talk:Turing tarpit
05:29:17 <^v> pssst... spambots... edit this page so it gets protected... —ehird 19:01, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
05:29:17 <^v> Spambot: No.
05:38:08 <elliott> thank you, I do in fact remember writing that comment three years ago.
05:39:02 <Sgeo> "It is easy to figure out my speed, since I walk at a constant speed," Recordis said proudly.
05:42:07 <^v> A regular 4294967296-gon is constructible with straightedge and compass.
05:42:36 <kmc> that's news you can use
05:42:58 <Bike> procedure for drawing higher polygons with a straightedge and compass: just draw a fucking circle noone can tell the difference
05:43:18 <kmc> "2^32-agon" has a better ring to it
05:43:36 <Bike> four score and 2^32 ago
05:44:54 <kmc> I keep seeing a red lobster ad for "the ultimate, lobster topped lobster"
05:49:31 <Quintopia> Bike: if you draw one a thousand miles wide they can
05:50:03 <Bike> i am not going to do that
05:51:39 <^v> http://puu.sh/9a0uj/6964e4826c.png
05:51:43 <^v> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
05:51:53 <^v> why are my puushes long now D:
05:52:23 <Bike> excuse you, i'm at LEAST three fourths assing
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06:13:51 <Sgeo> These characters start with a deadline to understand using integrals for areas of 2 hours 56 minutes. They only start making progress with 9 minutes left.
06:15:18 <kmc> that sounds like every maths problems set I tried to do
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06:16:21 <kmc> also, I feel I should add, what
06:16:29 <Bike> yeah i'm having trouble parsing t his
06:16:47 <kmc> I assume Sgeo is watching anime in which people learn maths
06:18:02 <Sgeo> The Gremlin set fires in pools that will destroy the country unless the pools are filled with the exact amount of water needed
06:18:51 <shachaf> kmc: Blaketh taught me to play pool the other day
06:18:58 <shachaf> except i'm still confused about the rules and also bad at it
06:19:07 <Bike> you can like, fill a pool with water without computing how much water there is beforehand
06:19:51 <shachaf> is this a maths book in which there's a story and the moral of the story is you should've learned maths
06:20:00 <Sgeo> shachaf: the first part is right
06:20:04 <Bike> also integrals are really demoralizing as homework goes
06:20:13 <shachaf> or a meta-maths book where you have to use integrals or something to figure out how long it took people to learn maths
06:20:23 <Bike> i had an assignment to do fourier series of a bunch of functions and i pretty much gave up after one trig integral
06:20:43 <shachaf> integrals are a bit of a scow imo
06:21:32 <Sgeo> "Lunch right now?" the count cried. "It's 11:23 1/2 A.M.!"
06:21:39 <Bike> the fuck is a scow
06:21:50 <Sgeo> "We always have lunch at 11:23 1/2 A.M., on the dot," Recordis said.
06:24:34 <Sgeo> "I hope it's some easy number like 2 or 3," Recordis said. "We need to think of some letter to stand for the unknown base until we find out what it is."
06:24:50 <Sgeo> They turned to me, and I came up with another suggestion: that we let the letter e stand for the unknown base.
06:25:09 <elliott> Sgeo: if you quote much more it's going to rapidly exceed the bounds of fair use.
06:25:42 <elliott> (I may have ulterior motives for wishing to stop the unauthorised reproduction of bad books into IRC channels I'm in.)
06:25:46 <Bike> this prose sucks
06:26:03 <Bike> hey remember that time we got that ~esoteric~ book linked here
06:26:07 <Bike> that was like, a whole week ago
06:26:10 <Bike> man good times huh
06:27:15 <Sgeo> It's not a bad book! I love it! Just... the writing seems more blatantly written to serve the needs of the math, which does make sense
06:28:04 <Bike> that's how it always goes
06:28:16 <Bike> the plot and writing and characters are total s hit but you keep reading because you're a fucking nerd
06:29:06 <elliott> I respect your opinion and still think it's a bad book.
06:30:54 <Sgeo> At one point, someone slips while etching something on glass, so they decide to find the answer for what was accidentally etched
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07:56:21 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
07:56:54 <scp> Sweet rainbow
07:57:04 <scp> and thanks
07:57:09 <shachaf> `run ln -sf rwelcome bin/relcome
07:57:32 <HackEgo> scp: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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08:06:13 <oerjan> oh the `undo didn't reinstate links either...
08:08:25 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome"; }
08:10:55 <HackEgo> bin/welcome \ bin/welcome13
08:13:06 <HackEgo> bin/rwelcome \ bin/welcome \ bin/welcome \ bin/welcome13
08:13:54 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
08:15:28 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/welcome/welcome "$@"/' bin/welcome
08:15:39 <HackEgo> hi: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
08:16:13 <HackEgo> hi: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
08:16:23 <scp> I like the rainbow much better than the bold (as experienced via irssi)
08:16:37 <shachaf> Well, there are many variants.
08:16:41 <HackEgo> ScP: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: <HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/>. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
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08:24:03 <shachaf> kmc: http://www.friendsofcoleridge.com/membersonly/Clayson_Ramsgate_files/borges.htm
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08:48:24 <scp> shachaf: that last example is way too optimistic about the case-insensitivity of the systems I use
08:53:19 <oerjan> hey we just fixed the url so it _should_ work...
08:53:30 <oerjan> before it didn't at all.
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09:10:02 <fizzie> oerjan: Was the "other way" just removing the main-page part from the URL?
09:16:07 <oerjan> back when the first `welcome was made, the link didn't work without the wiki/ at least
09:16:43 <oerjan> since there was a root page with links to the archive as well
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11:17:09 <fizzie> olsner: http://esolangs.org/forum/
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11:43:06 <myname> wait, there is a forum?
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12:08:31 <boily> the more I read about rust, the more it makes sense.
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13:37:29 <Slereah_> What languages did the Soviet Union use, outside of assemblyu
13:39:47 <Slereah_> Did they use capitalist swine languages or make their own
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13:48:28 <int-e> Bah. SO does not allow anonymous answers at all? I mean I can get the effect by making a new account, and they do not verify e-mail addresses, but there will be an account.
13:48:53 <int-e> it's just another stupid social media website.
13:51:16 <ais523> int-e: I think the intended purpose of Stack Overflow is to use gamification and social media techniques to trick people into contributing to an FAQ
13:52:18 <int-e> But I don't want to play that game. They tend suck up my time.
13:52:26 <int-e> IRC is bad enough :P
13:57:17 <boily> I should brush my teeth.
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14:18:53 <Slereah_> "I got interested in the Soviet space program and was interested to discover that the software on the Buran spacecraft circa 1988 was written in Prolog. "
14:19:37 <Slereah_> "The author himself participated in many early projects (mostly in hardware) and according to him analog hardware was in favor for a long time, he mentions that space rendezvous tasks didn't use digital computers until the late 70's."
14:20:29 <Slereah_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRAKON
14:23:37 <int-e> nothing wrong with prolog, except for cuts and negation as failure ;-)
14:24:12 <int-e> (I prefer declarative programming languages)
14:24:26 <ais523> prolog with cut is a completely different language to prolog without cut
14:26:35 <FireFly> Slereah_: they at least invented their own hardware
14:26:43 <FireFly> you cited something related to that already
14:28:02 <FireFly> I think they had some ternary computers
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15:09:45 <Bike_> Slereah_: they started cloning western hardware in... i wanna say the 70s, and before that things were kind of prehistoric
15:09:51 <Bike_> Drakon and DSSP are the languages i can remember
15:10:51 <Bike_> here's a manuscript http://www.sigcis.org/?q=node/85
15:11:00 <Bike_> it's mostly about the relay era, but still interesting
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15:12:57 <Bike> i'm semi-aware of a book on the space coomputers, but it's only in Russian and i don't know anything about it beyond the ISBN
15:15:15 <int-e> analogue computers make sense. you don't have to worry about clocks, A/D and D/A conversion, and the associated latencies.
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15:16:35 <int-e> I wonder where the cited cost savings for ternary computers come from and whether there is anything like CMOS (which cut down power consumption of binary computers tremendously) for ternary logic.
15:18:05 <int-e> (with emphasis on the "C"omplementary part)
15:18:14 <Bike> setun was 1958, they sure as fuck weren't using ICs
15:18:46 <int-e> I cannot fathom what a ternary logic gate would look like.
15:20:21 <Bike> http://www.computer-museum.ru/english/setun.htm here, have a badly translated article about it
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15:20:49 <Bike> i guess "Threshold realization of threevalued logic on electromagnetic elements" would be the paper
15:21:26 <ais523> I think ternary may have been killed by the miniaturization of circuits
15:21:33 <ais523> small transistors only work properly at low voltages
15:21:44 <ais523> meaning three voltage levels become much harder to distinguish than two
15:22:02 <ais523> there's been a steady downward decline in the voltages computers use internally, because of this
15:22:16 <Bike> http://en.trinary.ru/projects/setunws/ i recommend switching randomly
15:26:10 <Bike> also try pushing buttons
15:27:13 <Slereah_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-English-based_programming_languages
15:29:29 <Slereah_> قلب (qlb) – an Arabic Scheme-like programming language exploring the role of human culture in coding[22]
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17:05:05 <Leb> !bfjoust almost_a_vibrator >(+-)*100000
17:05:18 <EgoBot> Score for Leb_almost_a_vibrator: 7.4
17:05:56 <ais523> Leb: the main way that program wins without the > is that opponents think they've cleared the flag and move on
17:06:19 <ais523> with the >, if that happens, the enemy program will just assume it cleared a decoy and move on to the flag
17:07:00 <Leb> yes, it was supposed to mostly draw
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17:33:20 <FireFly> While on the topic of weird old russian computers, there's also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_for_operations_with_functions
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17:49:32 <Bike> i love operations with functions!
17:49:52 <Bike> Slereah_: i think i saw an article on that one. turns out most editors barf on rtl text, who knew
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18:41:37 <Jafet> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_selfie "A space selfie is a selfie (self-portrait photograph typically posted on social media sites) that is taken in space."
18:42:06 <kmc> v. encyclopædic
18:43:08 <Jafet> Serious topics in the mainstream news
18:46:51 <Bike> Space selfies can be dated back to 1976 when the lander of the Viking 2 mission took the photo of its deck after landing on Mars; however they were not considered by Discovery News as a true selfie in its list of top 10 space robot selfies.
18:47:14 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Curiosity_first_space_selfie_%28raw_image%29.jpg is mars like, dusty
18:47:30 <Bike> i mean that dusty
18:49:27 <Jafet> There have been worse selfies
18:50:27 <kmc> list of top 10 space robot selfies
18:50:29 <kmc> quality journalism
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19:46:30 <zzo38> Do you know of any C program to parse a Haskell syntax?
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20:18:57 <zzo38> I want to use a object notation (like JSON or XML or YAML or whatever), but having the features like: * Data types: string, integer, floating-point, null, record, reference, list, foreign-function-call. * External text encoding (if used from a C program, you can therefore make up any text encoding you want). * Non-indentation-sensitive syntax. * An object can be tagged with a name, and referenced before, after, and/or inside of that object.
20:19:33 <zzo38> O, and perhaps also simple macros.
20:19:44 <Bike> macros in data?
20:20:57 <zzo38> Yes; I want to specify a macro for a certain data structure and use the macro many times just filling in the parameters that differ. Similar to a C macro, kind of.
20:21:34 <FireFly> Doesn't some lisps have a way of encoding recursive structures using some # syntax?
20:21:53 <FireFly> I know that SpiderMonkey (JS) does, and I think that was borrowed from some lisp
20:21:56 <zzo38> I don't know, but I am not trying to make recursive structures anyways
20:22:03 <olsner> using libz is almost like automatically determining a suitable set of macros
20:22:15 <FireFly> Well, I was thinking about the "give a name of a subexpression and re-use it" part
20:22:49 <FireFly> Oh, hm, maybe that's not what you meant with giving a name to an object and referencing it
20:22:55 <Bike> it seems that zzo wants parameters.
20:22:56 <zzo38> FireFly: No, I meant to reference it, not re-use it. Furthermore, multiple same expressions with different names can also be considered different references.
20:23:15 <Bike> like foo(x) = [4,x,4,4,4,4], and then have a data structure of [foo(7),foo(4)]
20:23:52 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, to have a macro like that.
20:25:26 <zzo38> Actually macro could be considered as the same datatype as a foreign-function-call; the differences is just that a macro is defined inside of the data file, and then a foreign-function-call will call a C function or whatever (and which might create an opaque object of its own type, or do other things, including possibly side-effects).
20:25:52 <Bike> man i've always wanted to call out to C from json,
20:25:56 <FireFly> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Sharp_variables_in_JavaScript aha
20:26:51 <Bike> that's pretty lol
20:27:25 <zzo38> FireFly: Yes I have seen that
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20:45:05 <zzo38> I can try to make up such format but I don't know what it is called!
20:45:33 <Bike> Zzo's Cool Data Storage Format
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20:47:13 <zzo38> Maybe I should abbreviate it? Then it would be called "ZCDSF"
20:47:28 <Bike> good thinking.
20:47:30 <zzo38> I suppose it is OK
20:51:10 <oerjan> <myname> wait, there is a forum? <-- only the archive. it was hardly ever used and overrun with spam, so when elliott took over from graue he made it readonly.
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20:53:38 <oerjan> <Slereah_> Did they use capitalist swine languages or make their own <-- i do recall reading about refal, which seemed interesting.
20:53:52 <callforjudgement> but the wiki's better for the sort of thing you'd normally use a forum for, IMO
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20:54:43 <oerjan> i think it mainly existed because graue had a sort of hangup that the wiki _shouldn't_ be used as a forum.
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20:59:27 <oerjan> <int-e> Bah. SO does not allow anonymous answers at all? I mean I can get the effect by making a new account, and they do not verify e-mail addresses, but there will be an account. <-- that's weird, my first SO answer was definitely unregistered. although i _did_ use my real name and probably gave my email address, it wasn't made into a "real" account until after i had to go through hoops to get it back because my cookies had long since expired.
21:00:12 <oerjan> i suppose they're really sort of accounts anyway.
21:00:25 <int-e> https://stackoverflow.com/users/3696868/user3696868
21:01:26 <oerjan> yeah that's probably as anonymous as it gets.
21:01:32 <int-e> I guess "Unregistered" is there way of saying that it's not a full account yet.
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21:03:06 <lambdabot> foldr f z (x:xs) = f x (foldr f z xs)
21:03:45 <lambdabot> foldr f z (x:xs) = f x (foldr f z xs)
21:04:05 <lambdabot> foldl f z (x:xs) = foldl f (f z x) xs
21:04:16 <int-e> these are all lies
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21:04:34 <Vorpal> I just discovered a USB memory stick in a pocket after taking out a pair of jeans from the closet. Surprisingly it works just fine, even though it would have gone through the washing machine.
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21:04:59 <int-e> foldl :: forall a b. (b -> a -> b) -> b -> [a] -> b
21:04:59 <int-e> foldl k z0 xs = foldr (\(v::a) (fn::b->b) (z::b) -> fn (k z v)) (id :: b -> b) xs z0
21:05:07 <int-e> is what GHC.List does for foldl :)
21:05:16 <myname> Vorpal: not that surprising
21:05:21 <oerjan> int-e: hm that's the new fusable version, i guess?
21:05:27 <int-e> myname: @src takes definitions from the Haskell report, mostly.
21:05:33 <lambdabot> sortBy cmp = foldr (insertBy cmp) []
21:05:43 <lambdabot> insertBy cmp x ys@(y:ys') = case cmp x y of
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21:06:01 <Vorpal> myname, well, I would have expected the electronics to get damaged by the wash, after all it is not just water, there is the detergent too
21:06:06 <int-e> oerjan: yes I think so.
21:06:35 <olsner> maybe you just forgot to wash them and put them in the closet dirty
21:07:14 <Vorpal> olsner, no, I'm sure that was not the case, I put used clothes on a hanger behind the door, rather than in the closet
21:07:27 <int-e> https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/7994 is the ticket corresponding to that change to foldl.
21:07:39 <Vorpal> Given that "workflow" it is extremely unlikely to not have gone through the washing machine
21:07:53 <Bike> i apparently read 'detergent' as a lab thing now, woo
21:08:28 <Vorpal> Bike, is it not the correct English word?
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21:22:40 <kmc> hi party people
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21:24:38 <oerjan> kmc: are you a drug or a complexity class
21:25:31 <kmc> i seem to be a verb
21:26:03 <kmc> if you find out, let me know
21:26:51 <nortti> also, kMc is initialism of "kilomegacycles" according to https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kmc
21:27:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: Kyoto hotel room view, handheld: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140601-view.jpg
21:28:45 <fizzie> Two adjacent SI prefixes, how rude.
21:29:20 <int-e> fizzie: is that composed of 4 pictures?
21:29:51 <int-e> oh. five. I missed one glitch :)
21:29:57 <oerjan> no they really make the rails like that in kyoto
21:30:45 <fizzie> I though it'd be best to make the actual view match, rather than the railing.
21:30:46 <int-e> (the rightmost one)
21:31:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, true, but rotate around the nodal point
21:31:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, when were you there?
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21:31:57 <fizzie> Yes, yes, but I didn't take a tripod with me in the first place.
21:32:19 * Sgeo reads http://davidwalsh.name/3d-websockets keeping in mind that what he's planning isn't so massive that I need this 'partitioning' business
21:32:20 <fizzie> And we came back, uh... this Friday, I think. It's a bit fuzzy.
21:32:28 <oerjan> what, the complexity zoo has only one class starting with k
21:32:42 <oerjan> (and then promptly ending)
21:33:02 <Vorpal> Btw, I'm having fun with DF atm, haven't played it for ages
21:33:17 <Vorpal> Having fun with this new minecart thing
21:35:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: We'll be doing a quick Stockholm-Kolmården-Linköping-Örebro-Stockholm drive-around soonishly, too.
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21:38:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw I was in the Chinese park this friday. Very nice and quiet, the weather wasn't the best. Even rained a bit. I like that though
21:40:38 <Taneb> Ethernet port isn't working for someo reason.
21:40:41 <fizzie> That's on our list of stops. Assuming we can find it. (Which we probably will; I've got the coordinates, and seen the signposts in Street View.)
21:40:53 <Vorpal> Taneb, OS? Did it work before?
21:41:02 <Vorpal> Is the other end connected?
21:41:04 <Taneb> Vorpal, don't think it's OS
21:41:06 <Taneb> It has worked before
21:41:07 <Vorpal> Have you tried rebooting?
21:41:24 <Taneb> It's good until the wall
21:41:28 <Taneb> I have tried rebooting
21:41:33 <kmc> itym "have you tried turning it off and on again"
21:41:48 <Vorpal> Taneb, the OS question was more a question of: "what commands should I suggest"
21:41:53 <kmc> back in my day I had to edit kernel modules with busybox sed to get my ethernet port working
21:42:06 <Taneb> Vorpal, I'm going to try waiting a day or two first
21:42:13 <Vorpal> Taneb, how will that help
21:42:18 <Taneb> It was working last night
21:42:24 <Vorpal> Taneb, anyway you should try connecting it to another device
21:42:35 <Taneb> I don't have any other ethernet devices
21:42:45 <oerjan> have you tried smashing it with a hammer twh hth
21:42:51 <Taneb> I don't have a hammer :(
21:42:58 <Vorpal> Taneb, anyway what about ifconfig? What does it say? ifconfig -a if it isn't listed at all
21:43:00 <kmc> mcpherrin: http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2012/12/hex-editing-linux-kernel-modules-to.html
21:43:02 <Zuu> Cant touch me!
21:43:08 <Zuu> HAMMER TIME!
21:43:27 <Taneb> Vorpal, ifconfig looks friendly
21:43:29 <mcpherrin> kmc: oh yeah I've read this post :p
21:43:40 <mcpherrin> kmc: I totally knew your blog before I knew you :p
21:43:54 <Vorpal> Taneb, so what does it say with respect to eth0 or whatever your ethernet interface is
21:43:58 <Taneb> Vorpal, I ought to be doing revision, so I'm going to live with this workaround
21:44:04 <oerjan> Zuu: now be glad i don't have a hammer
21:44:09 <Taneb> "UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST"
21:44:20 <Vorpal> Taneb, no inet address though?
21:44:30 <Taneb> inet6 addr: fe80::5604:a6ff:feb4:8a1c/64 Scope:Link
21:44:41 <kmc> mcpherrin: :)
21:44:47 <Vorpal> Taneb, Right, only link ipv6, no actual ipv4
21:44:49 <boily> oerjan: oh, the swatter! can I mapole him too?
21:44:49 <Bike> oh, internet problems
21:44:51 <kmc> i wanna say "i get that a lot" but it's more like I get that occasionally
21:44:55 <Vorpal> Taneb, I guess dhcp could be dead?
21:44:58 <Bike> i get that a nonzero amount
21:45:11 <Taneb> I'm not sure what dhcp is
21:45:17 <oerjan> boily: hey we're supposed to make him _happy_ we're not using hammers
21:45:21 <Bike> it's the thing that gets you an ip address
21:45:29 <Zuu> oerjan: but... hammers are hammerlicious
21:45:34 <Taneb> Then I don't think I can do anything about that
21:45:35 <Vorpal> Taneb, the thing that makes it so that you don't have to manually input ip and so on for your computer
21:45:55 <Bike> but uh, does it say he has an inet6 addr there, or is that the router. i forget how ifconfig works
21:46:08 <Vorpal> Taneb, instead it sends a broadcast message like "hey give me IP and netmask and all that shiz!" and the DHCP server replies with the requested info
21:46:20 <boily> oerjan: it's not a hammer, it just looks like one.
21:46:44 <Vorpal> Bike, it is a link ipv6
21:46:48 <Taneb> I think the issue may be that it's only given me an IPv6 addr but only has an IPv4 connection to the outside world?
21:46:51 <boily> (besides, my grilf and I went to the Musée d'Art Contemporain today. I'm not sure what things should be looking like now.)
21:46:53 <Vorpal> Bike, it is auto-assigned based on the MAC
21:46:57 <kmc> your computer is broadcasting an ip address
21:47:00 <Vorpal> Bike, it means nothing in other words
21:47:52 <Vorpal> Bike, "real" ipv6 would have Scope:Global
21:48:02 <int-e> that's a link-local address. "Link-local addresses for IPv4 are defined in the address block 169.254.0.0/16, in CIDR notation. In IPv6, they are assigned with the fe80::/10 prefix."
21:48:05 <Bike> too complicated
21:48:27 <Vorpal> int-e, I wonder why I don't see the ipv4 ones normally
21:48:33 <oerjan> boily: ceci n'est pas un marteau
21:48:36 <Vorpal> but there is always the ipv6 ones it seems
21:48:38 <zzo38> OK, now I wrote the ZCDSF specification.
21:48:44 <int-e> which means it will not get you very far
21:49:05 <int-e> Vorpal: maybe because it's more dangerous to pick one of only 2^16 addresses at random.
21:49:19 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/zcdsf.txt Can you please review this to see what it is?
21:50:22 <oerjan> it's a data format hth
21:50:53 <zzo38> I meant to make a opinion/question/comment/complaint about it, please.
21:51:18 <int-e> zzo38: 4Hello a 4 followed by a name or "ello" as a hollerith string?
21:52:40 <zzo38> int-e: It is a hollerith string. If you do not want that, put a space in between, although a number followed immediately by a name is not a valid data anyways.
21:54:31 <zzo38> I believe that in all such cases where ambiguity of being more than one token is possible, making them multiple tokens will not result in a valid file anyways.
21:55:32 <zzo38> If you find a counterexample, then please tell me.
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22:01:27 <int-e> zzo38: you're probably right, but it'd be easier to reason about if "H" was not a name, but another special character.
22:02:57 <int-e> oh and I did not understand what you mean by "extra semicolons" in the description of records and lists.
22:03:20 <zzo38> OK, yes perhaps using * would be better; I may fix that
22:03:42 <zzo38> What I mean by "extra semicolons" is, for example, [1;2;3;4;5] is valid and so is [1;;;2;3;4;;;;;;5;]
22:03:54 <zzo38> Perhaps I should clarify that.
22:03:56 <int-e> I mean as I read it, [1;2;;;;4] would be ok, but [[1;2;;;;4]] wouldn't, because there are extra ; inside the first item of that list.
22:04:15 <int-e> And I assume that's not the intended meaning.
22:04:31 <int-e> in fact "extra ;" is not really defined.
22:08:04 <zzo38> That isn't intended meaning.
22:08:10 <int-e> I sort of dislike the flexibility of the encoding (ASN ambiguities are one important way of breaking the SSL certificate infrastructure, where a CA believes it's signing a certificate for A, whereas the browser thinks it's for B)
22:08:19 <zzo38> [[1;2;;;;4]] is OK and means the same as [[1;2;4]]
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22:11:05 <Sgeo> Grr why isn't --disable-web-security working
22:11:57 <Jafet> In what software is that not the default?
22:12:25 <int-e> zzo38: perhaps make it explicit that extra semicolons are permitted immediately after the [ and immediately after each list item.
22:12:26 <zzo38> int-e: OK, I fixed to use * instead of H and added a section about clarification.
22:12:27 <Sgeo> There we go, had to completely exit Chrome
22:12:43 <zzo38> int-e: O, OK, perhaps I should write that instead; it is a better way to say it.
22:13:28 <Sgeo> Are there any actual malicious sites out there waiting to prey on anyone who happens to have --disable-web-security active?
22:14:22 <Jafet> There are malicious sites that activate when a cosmic ray hits your DNS server
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22:15:58 * oerjan now imagines if that gave the DNS server superpowers instead
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22:17:29 <mcpherrin> Jafet: yeah, I've seen network switches mis-forwarding traffic due to a bit flip
22:19:07 <zzo38> int-e: Maybe you don't like ASN ambiguities, although what kind of flexibility you need depends on the application.
22:20:27 <int-e> zzo38: yes. you didn't state any requirements or rationale of any kind, so there ...
22:20:53 <zzo38> You are right I didn't. Should I have done?
22:21:11 <int-e> I don't know, it depends on your requirements ;)
22:22:11 <int-e> If you ask me, some sort of scope and context would be nice, but such things tend to be tedious to actually write.
22:23:38 <int-e> And obviously they are not necessary to use such a format.
22:24:59 <zzo38> I know, these reasons are the ones why I didn't write such a thing.
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22:27:33 <zzo38> One thing is that it is simple and flexible, and supports macros and references.
22:27:45 <zzo38> These are some of the important reasons to me.
22:29:42 <int-e> hmm. macros - is there a way to find the end of a macro without knowing its implementation?
22:31:52 <int-e> zzo38: I guess you never really say what a macro invocation looks like. am I missing anything?
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22:38:06 <zzo38> int-e: Yes; a macro invocation always expands to a data value. I thought I mentioned that.
22:41:55 <int-e> zzo38: yet you do not say what it looks like. a macro *definition* has the shape Name(Arg1,Arg2,Name1=Foo1,Name2=Foo2), and presumably that also holds for the invocation, but it's not stated.
22:42:19 <zzo38> int-e: O, OK, I will fix that. You are correct though
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22:49:39 <zzo38> Tell me if anything else may be wrong/confusing!
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23:06:47 <oerjan> <zzo38> Do you know of any C program to parse a Haskell syntax? <-- hugs is written in C so probably contains some...
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23:08:18 <Taneb> zzo38, one of my friends wrote one! Somewhere in https://github.com/ThatOtherPerson/dhc
23:09:12 <oerjan> <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Curiosity_first_space_selfie_%28raw_image%29.jpg is mars like, dusty <-- "The image was acquired while MAHLI's clear dust cover was closed." so possibly not quite.
23:09:43 <oerjan> @tell Bike <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Curiosity_first_space_selfie_%28raw_image%29.jpg is mars like, dusty <-- "The image was acquired while MAHLI's clear dust cover was closed." so possibly not quite.
23:11:06 <Bike> dust doesn't ahve to be inside the camera...
23:11:22 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure mars gets dust storms.
23:11:43 <oerjan> (also iirc most of that dust is rust)
23:11:52 <Bike> @clear-messages
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23:40:06 <zzo38> Now I added a introduction. Is it OK?
23:48:34 <zzo38> In case a format specification is required at the beginning of the file, you can use the following (which is a comment and ignored by ZCDSF): #!/usr/bin/valid-zcdsf
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23:50:32 <zzo38> It is not necessary to have a file on your computer called /usr/bin/valid-zcdsf in order to use this.
23:50:58 <FreeFull> oerjan: Mozilla should have just sent a mars rover
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00:07:39 <int-e> zzo38: yes, the introdution looks good. reading between the lines, I can see that you want something human editable rather than just a data exchange format for programs, which explains the flexibility in the syntax
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00:18:28 <zzo38> How well do you think it is compared to other formats and stuff? What one you use can depend on the application, but I would like to know other people's opinions on these comparison between formats too
00:24:24 <int-e> of the standard ones I tend to like JSON best but it's inconvenient for embedding binary data (since, as you write, it's tied to Unicode) I agrree that the standard text representation of XML is too verbose, and that binary formats will not be human readable nor editable.
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00:26:13 <int-e> Oh and references are a nice touch (I've seen such before in lpmud save files, hmm :) ). I'm less convinced that macros should be part of the data format.
00:27:57 <int-e> (I'd be worried about somebody writing F(x) = [x;x] and then F(F(...F(42)...)) and crash my program.)
00:28:38 <int-e> but of course references have the same potential, if one isn't careful
00:29:25 <zzo38> Adding limits can avoid the F(F(...F(42)...)) problem. This is what SQLite does.
00:29:45 <int-e> is this right? [A.[A.[A.42,A],A],A]
00:30:47 <zzo38> int-e: Yes, it is valid, although may be ambiguous depending on the application.
00:30:49 <int-e> Or do I need 3 names for that?
00:31:08 <zzo38> Actually perhaps I should just specify you need 3 names for that.
00:31:12 <zzo38> It wasn't previously clear.
00:31:25 <zzo38> Needing 3 names is probably clearer and simpler and more sensible.
00:31:54 <zzo38> Note that references are their own datatype, not the type of whatever it is referencing.
00:31:55 <int-e> Oh. What about [A.[A]]?
00:32:04 <zzo38> Yes, that is valid.
00:32:25 <int-e> (why is this restricted to list items?)
00:32:26 <zzo38> It is a list containing a list containing a reference to the first item of the first list.
00:33:21 <zzo38> It is restricted to list items because of what references are and are not. They do not represent a copy of the data.
00:34:05 <int-e> it precludes {A=ref.[1;2;3];B=ref}
00:34:53 <zzo38> That wouldn't make sense though. If you want to use the list [1;2;3] in several places, you should want a macro, not a reference.
00:34:53 <int-e> which seems sensible. (whereas A.[A] is a bit silly)
00:35:07 <int-e> zzo38: but then it would be duplicated
00:36:21 <zzo38> References represent a pointer to the data, and are certainly not interchangeable with the data themself!
00:36:27 <int-e> It just seems strange to forbid that but allow [ref.[1,2,3],{A=ref,B=ref}]
00:36:52 <int-e> zzo38: yes. I want A and B to point to the same list.
00:37:00 <zzo38> Perhaps it does seem strange to you, but to me it doesn't
00:37:03 <int-e> not to two equal lists.
00:37:15 <elliott> int-e: wouldn't that make A the actual list [1;2;3] but B only a reference to it?
00:37:16 <zzo38> int-e: Well, references point to a position in a list.
00:37:18 <elliott> so it's not quite what you want
00:37:54 <elliott> you'd need, like, &ref.[1;2;3]
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00:38:28 <int-e> Oh. [ref.[1;2;3];ref] and [ref,ref.[1;2;3]] are not the same?
00:38:42 <int-e> (sorry, I still write , for ;)
00:38:52 <zzo38> That is correct they are not the same at all.
00:39:02 <int-e> ok. that is strange to me.
00:39:03 <elliott> hence <zzo38> Note that references are their own datatype, not the type of whatever it is referencing.
00:39:48 <elliott> int-e: presumably foo.x is like ({ foo = &x; *foo }) for some imagined foo, so to speak, and foo is like... well, foo
00:40:09 <int-e> (then the lpmud reference (sic!) was invalid though, since that encoded actual sharing.)
00:40:47 <int-e> or encodes ... I know for a fact that a couple of those things are still running
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00:48:48 <int-e> aaargh. I've been wondering for a week now why somebody would calle a function "runit" ... I read it as 'r-unit'...
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01:03:06 <int-e> heh. I found this comment in lambdabot: | not classFound -- can't trust those dodgy folk in #haskell
01:03:30 <lambdabot> Couldn't find class `Dodgy'. Try @instances-importing
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01:14:41 <oerjan> why would you nit a ru
01:15:30 <oerjan> @instances-importing Extremely.Unsafe Dodgy
01:15:31 <lambdabot> Couldn't find class `Dodgy'. Try @instances-importing
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05:07:53 <kmc> hi sgeo, how goes it?
05:08:10 <Sgeo> Situation normal
05:15:52 <Sgeo> Sometimes I think I'm the sort of person who recognizes his mistakes, and then proceeds to do nothing about them.... how do I fix that mistake?
05:17:49 <zzo38> You did something (although not much) about that mistake, which is, to ask a question about it. That isn't doing much, of course!
05:29:10 <zzo38> O no, maybe ZCDSF is not LALR(1). I am trying to use it with the Lemon parser generator and get errors, which I think is because it has to look ahead a lot in order to figure out the difference of a macro invocation than a macro definition.
05:35:06 <zzo38> Perhaps it can be resolved in the tokenizer?
05:43:06 <kmc> Rust has this property that you can parse the source into a "token tree" before expanding macros
05:43:09 <kmc> that turns out to be very useful
05:45:14 <kmc> tt ::= '(' tt ')' | '{' tt '}' | '[' tt ']' | token tt | ''
05:45:16 <kmc> approximately
05:46:17 <kmc> macro expansion is sort of ugly though; there's an AST node type for each place a macro invocation can appear (ExprMac, PatMac, etc.) and these are expanded at some point
05:46:40 <Sgeo> Have macros changed since the last release, or from last release and release before then?
05:46:40 <kmc> and then all the code which runs after that point has like ExprMac(_) => tcx.sess.bug("unexpanded macro")
05:46:47 <Sgeo> I'm figuring maybe I should look at a stable macro system
05:46:47 <kmc> Sgeo: I don't pay attention to releases
05:46:56 <Sgeo> How much is it changing?
05:47:06 <kmc> as far as I'm concerned there are two versions of Rust: master, and whichever one Servo is using
05:47:11 <Bike> rust seems like a bad place to look for stability
05:47:13 <kmc> and the one Servo is using is almost never a release
05:47:19 <kmc> the macro system isn't changing that much, though
05:47:27 <kmc> I just added the ability to expand macros in pattern position
05:47:57 <kmc> and the mechanisms for "procedural macros", i.e. running arbitrary Rust code at compile time to produce an AST, are changing some
05:48:06 <kmc> and those are more exposed to other changes to compiler internals, of course
05:48:16 <kmc> but the plain Macros By Example macros haven't changed too much since I started using the language almost a year ago
05:50:30 <kmc> here is the graph of how far behind Rust master Servo has been over time: http://people.mozilla.org/~mbrubeck/servo-rust-updates.svg
05:51:58 <Bike> i like how when you do update it's not usually to master
05:52:42 <kmc> yeah because in the time between starting an update and finishing it, master will have moved forward
05:53:03 <Bike> by 10 days? hee.
05:54:10 <kmc> yes, it can easily take 10 days to update several 100k LoC for a month or two of language changes
05:54:21 <kmc> and test it on all platforms and rebase it against the other changes happening in Servo etc.
05:54:44 <kmc> Mozilla has this "badges" thing (idk really) and you may be amused by the image for the relevant one: https://badges.mozilla.org/en-US/badges/badge/Servo-Rust-upgrade
05:54:50 <Bike> what platforms is servo targeting btw
05:55:06 <Bike> oh that's pretty good.
05:55:08 <kmc> right now, x86-64 Linux, x86-64 OS X, and ARM Android kinda
05:55:21 <Bike> firefox tells me its connection to mozilla.org is insufficiently secure.
05:55:39 <kmc> Bike: the Android testing is not very automated, so it tends to regress a lot
05:55:44 <Bike> This site does not supply identity information... who could they be.......
05:55:50 <kmc> I think currently we can't run JavaScript on Android.
05:55:55 <kmc> in fact people are puzzled as to how we were ever able to
05:55:58 * kmc -> afk -> ice cream
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06:04:33 <Sgeo> http://doc.x3dom.org/developer/x3dom/runtime/index.html
06:04:41 * Sgeo hits his head on a convenient wall
06:05:46 <oerjan> a very nice and clean bar
06:18:21 <ion> [TAS] GC Crazy Taxi by solarplex in 05:53.18: http://youtu.be/O2wnNYmpABg
06:22:18 <kmc> every channel I'm in becomes #rust
06:22:24 <kmc> I'm vaguely aware that this can be annoying
06:30:21 <kmc> you got that right
06:30:51 <Sgeo> Should I try to learn raw WebGL or some convenient library like Three.JS? Or both?
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06:37:52 <kmc> what do you want to make?
06:38:22 <mcpherrin> Raw webgl is kinda annoying compared to shiny things like ThreeJS
06:38:34 <mcpherrin> so if you don't need it, use the abstractions
06:39:06 <kmc> OpenGL is pretty low level and WebGL / GLES remove more of the stuff you'd want for using OpenGL "by hand"
06:41:20 <Sgeo> Well, it could be interesting to learn how the low level stuff works
06:41:35 <Sgeo> And use the abstractions for anything interesting
06:42:13 <kmc> mcpherrin: just write an activex plugin
06:43:20 <Sgeo> Programming first 'clicked' in my mind when reading about ActiveX
06:45:33 <kmc> what about it?
06:47:04 <Sgeo> I think... just the concept of the computer being entirely controlled by code
06:47:08 <Sgeo> I'm not sure. I was a kid
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07:05:02 <oerjan> ah a classic "Users like this are like a mongoose backed into a corner: with its back to the wall and seeing certain death staring it in the face, it attacks frantically, because doing something has to be better than doing nothing. This is not well adapted to the type of problems computers produce."
07:05:31 <oerjan> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html
07:22:50 <Sgeo> I have always loved metaballs
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07:25:59 <kmc> what about meatballs?
07:26:04 <kmc> fungot: I found a food truck selling "fonduewurst"
07:26:05 <fungot> kmc: http://tinyurl.com/ fnord is a confusing little bit of code i've had to be crashed to the ground to touch your nose.
07:27:59 <Sgeo> kmc: they're awesome to look at
07:28:07 <Sgeo> Oh, you changed the word
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07:41:22 <slereah> Hello, I would like to magic
07:41:29 <slereah> Can you teach me the secret arts
07:42:04 <oerjan> `` WeLcOmE slereah | rainwords
07:42:06 <HackEgo> SlErEaH: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: <HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/>. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
07:43:47 <zzo38> I do not think we are a school for any secret arts. (If we were, it wouldn't be much secret, isn't it?)
07:44:26 <slereah> Then why do you have the HackEgo golem
07:45:06 <zzo38> To write strange messages like that.
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07:46:16 <oerjan> slereah: you cannot command it without the secret art of syntagma
07:46:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `help: not found
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07:56:29 <Taneb> I have an exam in like 4 hours
07:56:33 <Taneb> Time to clean my room
07:58:45 <HackEgo> crtcoin bracoin quycoin kellosophiloxicoin blindex.phpcoin bitbitzcoin killcoin neurcoin abccoin prestowcoin swellicoin thumseycoin aheltscoin rnatacoin rolcoin um-32coin ootcoin evilleravillcoin unlolanptcoin byacoin
08:21:52 <fizzie> crtcoin uses old, broken CRT monitors as physical coins.
08:25:33 <kmc> I helped my friend haul a 100 kg Trinitron flat-tube CRT television the other day
08:25:51 <kmc> flat tubes weigh even more than usual tubes
08:27:03 <fizzie> Is there a connection between Trinitron brand aperture grilles and trinitrotoluene?
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08:28:54 <kmc> i hope not
08:28:57 <kmc> for my friend's sake
08:30:16 <olsner> it's probably trinity+tron ... trinity because of the three colors in RGB? perhaps
08:30:52 <Taneb> My bookshelf is getting increasingly full :D
08:31:20 <fizzie> olsner: It's kind of silly, since what it improved on also had three colors and elec-tron beams.
08:32:09 <olsner> apparently trinity is because they merged the three beams into one beam
08:32:33 <fizzie> Oh, I guess that makes sense.
08:32:41 <fizzie> For some values of sense, anyway.
08:35:49 <fizzie> (Except I guess it doesn't have holes?)
08:36:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Rail]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39735&oldid=39722 * 84.174.111.48 * (+41)
08:36:33 <Taneb> ...is a bookshelf the right place for a book of stamps?
08:36:42 <slereah> "the Erlenmeyer flask was invented by Dr Julius Flask"
08:36:42 <kmc> i like to put them in the box of envelopes
08:37:30 <Taneb> Right, my book of stamps is now on my bookshelf
08:39:11 <slereah> It was from Uncyclopedia apparently but got deleted
08:40:02 <kmc> rustc has a flag that prints out the elapsed time for each compiler pass as they run (some 40 or so of them)
08:40:12 <kmc> this makes long compile times feel a lot less frustrating
08:40:25 <kmc> stuff is happening! borrows are being checked and freevars are being found!
08:40:28 <fizzie> Does it have a flag that lets you play tetris while it's compiling?
08:40:34 <kmc> fizzie: patches welcome
08:40:40 <kmc> though that might require an RFC first
08:41:01 <kmc> look through https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/0000-template.md
08:41:20 <kmc> Why are we doing this? What use cases does it support? What is the expected outcome? Why should we *not* do this? What is the impact of not doing this?
08:41:36 <fizzie> Yes, those are the kind of questions I might have trouble with.
08:41:36 <Taneb> I've missed my chance this academic year to make lecture notes on a typewriter :(
08:41:56 <mcpherrin> fizzie: omg that's actually a hilarious idea
08:42:28 <kmc> mcpherrin: how about a nice game of global thermonuclear war
08:42:38 <Taneb> kmc, I watched that film last night! :)
08:42:41 <mcpherrin> don't let the build succeed until you can clear a line
08:42:56 <fizzie> kmc: Another suggestion: if the real passes don't seem to be enough, you can add fake "reticulating splines" kind of ones.
08:43:26 <Taneb> Not last night, the other night
08:45:16 <kmc> fizzie: yes, it reminds me very much of that kind of thing
08:45:25 <Taneb> Also Hackers, which is the most 90's film imaginable
08:45:43 <fizzie> Taneb: Hack the planet!
08:46:34 <kmc> Taneb: http://www.avclub.com/article/ihackersi-may-have-been-of-its-time-but-it-was-als-72249
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08:48:47 <kmc> my current task involves converting a bunch of small functions to a different form
08:48:55 <kmc> which is nicely incremental work, and not too challenging
08:49:00 <kmc> which means I'll probably stay up all night doing it :/
08:50:55 <mcpherrin> rust is far too boring with what it'll accept as function names
08:51:28 <mcpherrin> Miscellaneous Symbols and Pictograms at least is needed
08:52:35 <Taneb> kmc, good read, thanks
08:55:43 <kmc> mcpherrin: but you can do https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/0b1c57d021e1899611a7 at least
09:01:16 <mcpherrin> hmm I should have a party where we get roller blades and 90s laptops and hack the gibson
09:01:22 <kmc> count me in
09:01:28 <kmc> I even have rollerblades!
09:01:36 <kmc> though I'm bad enough at using them sober...
09:02:06 <Taneb> I ought to get some
09:04:18 <kmc> "Rust input is interpreted as a sequence of Unicode codepoints encoded in UTF-8, normalized to Unicode normalization form NFKC"
09:04:21 <kmc> I have discovered that this is lies!
09:04:31 <kmc> python3 -c 'print("#![feature(non_ascii_idents)]\nfn sp\u00e4tzle() { }\nfn main() { spa\u0308tzle() }")' > foo.rs && rustc foo.rs
09:04:34 <kmc> foo.rs:3:13: 3:21 error: unresolved name `spätzle`.
09:05:06 <mcpherrin> kmc: lol, not really that surprising
09:05:16 <kmc> even in the future nothing works
09:05:55 <HackEgo> [U+222F SURFACE INTEGRAL]
09:05:59 <kmc> spätzle is delicious btw
09:06:14 <mcpherrin> or ∃ is a great one for collections
09:06:18 <kmc> mcpherrin: have you been to http://walzwerk.com/ ? "authentic and unique East German cuisine in the San Francisco Mission district"
09:06:39 <mcpherrin> tbh I haven't eaten many places in SF
09:06:56 <kmc> I am told that the German culinary divide is more north/south, and "East German cuisine" is more about decor and such
09:06:59 <mcpherrin> in the year I've been here, probably only a few, and half of them are burritos
09:06:59 <kmc> but still, tasty
09:07:28 <mcpherrin> so my previous city was very german
09:07:42 <kmc> you should eat there and then watch Good Bye Lenin!
09:07:51 <mcpherrin> (Kitchener was until some nastiness earlier this centry named Berlin)
09:08:10 <kmc> or last century?
09:08:42 <kmc> anyway I didn't know that
09:08:43 <kmc> that's funny
09:08:53 <kmc> there's a Madrid, Iowa but it's pronounced MA-drid
09:09:28 <kmc> mcpherrin: I found a food truck in Portland that offers currywurst and "fonduewurst"
09:10:18 <Taneb> I have not been to a single Yorkshire-style restaurant, which probably don't exist
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09:11:09 <Taneb> This is despite living in York
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09:11:35 <kmc> I think non-existence is a pretty good excuse, tbh
09:12:38 <kmc> it's pretty easy to make at home
09:12:49 <kmc> less so if you're picky about the finer points of the sauce
09:13:38 <kmc> Rosamunde has it, at least the Mission location
09:13:56 <kmc> and there's a "King of Cürrywurst" [sic] food truck
09:15:44 <kmc> http://achewood.com/index.php?date=03222004 http://achewood.com/index.php?date=03252004
09:15:47 <mcpherrin> kmc: my attempts to bootstrap a rust compiler that uses the YOLO keyword aren't going well :p
09:17:33 <mcpherrin> is gonna need a lot of #[cfg(stage0)]
09:17:45 <kmc> why? as long as you don't use it in the compiler itself
09:25:05 <mcpherrin> kmc: 'cause I removed unsafe, haha
09:30:51 <kmc> well there's yer problem
09:31:14 <kmc> gotta sleep now, ttyl all
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13:25:33 <slereah> Every part of my body is Turing complete
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13:36:06 <nortti> are DNA processes turing-complete?
13:37:46 <slereah> I don't know how you could make a loop with DNA
13:44:20 <int-e> slereah: ask your kids
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13:47:00 <slereah> You don't need kids for that
13:47:34 <slereah> But how do you do conditions on that loop
13:51:54 <Bike> "DNA processes"?
13:52:29 <Bike> and it's easy to make a DNA loop! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasmid lolol
13:53:19 <slereah> Be careful with plasmids man
13:53:29 <slereah> Last time I took some I had bees coming out of my hands
13:57:22 <int-e> that sounds excruciatingly painful
13:58:00 <slereah> http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/063/b/2/ttdi_bioshock_1__bees_by_anniezard-d3awuto.jpg
13:58:06 <slereah> http://mimg.ugo.com/201002/36219/cuts/insect-swarm-3_480x360.png
14:05:59 <impomatic> There something called HDNA (H for Hofstadter). I think it's also know as typogenetics or something.
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14:07:14 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple-stranded_DNA ?
14:07:16 <impomatic> Consecutive base pairs are interpreted and do various things like copy a base, cut a strand etc, loop, etc. It appears to be Turing complete.
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14:07:34 <Bike> hoogsteen is a ridiculous name, though
14:08:00 <Quintopia> impomatic: yes it's described in GEB. i once considered writing a wiki article on it
14:08:32 <Bike> but it's not real?
14:08:33 <impomatic> I think he wrote a bit about it in Goedel, Escher, Bach. I read about it in the January 1982 issue of Practical Computing which has a HDNA interpreter written in Basic.
14:08:49 <Bike> i mean real DNA has plenty of stuff about alternative splicing, god knows
14:08:55 <Bike> also pseudoknots which are pretty wack
14:08:58 <slereah> But does it have a basic interpreter written in HDNA
14:09:13 <impomatic> Quintopia: it's definitely esoteric. You should add it to the wiki :-)
14:09:16 <Bike> "so there's NP completeness, at least"
14:09:44 <Quintopia> impomatic: oh it's not that it's not esoteric that i haven't done it. it's that i'm too lazy.
14:10:22 <int-e> slereah: this is cute though: http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/File:Insect_swarm_plasmid_by_tinamin1-d4jh31s.jpg
14:10:51 <slereah> The bee plasmid was pretty weak but I used it a lot
14:10:58 <slereah> Because it's fucking BEES FROM MY HANDS
14:11:17 <slereah> That is enough to make a whole game out of
14:11:33 <Bike> oh and Turing wrote a nice paper about symmetry breaking in devbio, imo read it.
14:12:08 <impomatic> Another one which ought to be on the wiki. The language of Tierra. (I don't mind doing this one, I just need to research it a bit more. I haven't seem Ray naming it anywhere)
14:13:28 <Quintopia> is tierra the one that's just code in a large block of memory with program pointers passing over it repeatedly
14:13:46 <Quintopia> or is the one with actual moving organisms in 3d space
14:14:04 <impomatic> It's all in code, no actual organisms.
14:15:27 <Quintopia> yeah i saw something about the language used in that once. no jumps, right? just reading and writing to addresses
14:19:08 <Quintopia> i guess i don't remember it too well
14:19:11 <impomatic> No operands to instructions. You'd have jmpb / nop1 / nop0 / nop1 / something else.
14:19:48 <impomatic> That would jump back to the first template matching the complement of the three nops.
14:22:19 <Quintopia> ah. so you can jump, but you can't be sure where you're jumping
14:36:43 <impomatic> Only if the matching templates is in your own code. Otherwise you might jump into another program and run it's code (like a parasite)
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15:14:36 <Taneb> Help I need to sort out my life
15:16:05 <Taneb> Had a room inspection and the result was "We are worried about your health"
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15:51:05 <impomatic> Taneb: why exactly? Assuming it's messy, just hire a cleaner (or find a girlfriend who's clean / tidy). Assuming it's full of alcohol etc just print off some healthy looking labels to disguise it.
15:51:38 <Taneb> impomatic, evidently there's an oppressive smell
15:53:08 <Bike> that's... extreme
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16:06:29 <Taneb> Anyway, you can imagine my emotional state right now
16:09:50 <oerjan> maybe there's a capitalist swine hiding in there
16:10:10 <Taneb> oerjan, don't think so, wrong smell
16:10:45 <oerjan> and this smell wasn't there when you moved in?
16:11:19 <Taneb> No, the smell is almost certainly my fault
16:11:59 <oerjan> i suppose only you can tell the reason.
16:12:35 <Taneb> Because I normally keep the window closed I don't know how to turn the radiator off
16:12:36 <FireFly> what kind of smell could give such a judgement...
16:12:51 <oerjan> and whether you need to clean or visit a doctor
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16:15:11 <oerjan> hm maybe you have fungus in the room, i hear that can be awful.
16:16:19 <Taneb> It's a messy smell rather than a nasty smell
16:16:23 <Taneb> It's just a loud messy smell
16:16:56 <oerjan> well the solution is obvious but i would be a hypocrite to say it.
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16:17:46 <Taneb> Yes, I know the solution to the primary problem very well
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16:20:25 <Taneb> In fact, I suspect the majority of the smell comes from one source
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16:39:18 <kmc> which source is that
16:39:38 <kmc> impomatic: I like that "hire a cleaner" and "find a girlfriend" are alternatives on equal footing
16:39:40 <kmc> like, or something
16:42:08 <Taneb> They... I have not done the right thing with my bedsheets.
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17:02:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Twocode]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39736 * GermanyBoy * (+4719) Created page with "'''Twocode''' is a [[:Category:Two-dimensional languages|two-dimensional]] [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:GermanyBoy]] in 2014. It mixes two-dimensional '..."
17:03:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39737&oldid=39713 * GermanyBoy * (+14) /* T */
17:03:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:GermanyBoy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39738&oldid=39648 * GermanyBoy * (+14) twocode
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17:15:55 <Taneb> `run echo bin/coins
17:16:00 <Taneb> `run cat bin/coins
17:16:01 <HackEgo> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g' | rainwords
17:16:03 <zzo38> Then wash your bedsheets
17:16:16 <Taneb> That is the logical thing to do
17:16:43 <Taneb> `run cat bin/rainwords
17:16:44 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/python \ import random; w=[l.split() for l in open("/dev/stdin").read().split("\n")]; r=[4,7,8,9,2,6,13]; print "\n".join((lambda s: " ".join(chr(3) + "%02d"%r[(i+s)%len(r)] + l[i] for i in range(len(l))))(random.randrange(0, len(r))) for l in w)
17:16:53 <HackEgo> anollcoin pheycoin alagirdiminiscoin aubatwaldcoin clearecoin hlietcoin hoto++coin pcoin nestcoin intfcoin grocoin jetzschecoin membecoin sheedcoin stificcoin wudiffelliicketlangcoin brycoin tetcoin con-of-unbcoin truecoin
17:20:10 <zzo38> I read some book where they didn't write "Allah"; they wrote "al-Lah", I don't know if it is supposed to be the same word but it seem like it from the context. Do you know about this to answer it?
17:20:25 <kmc> Taneb: you can wash them every so often
17:20:36 <kmc> i don't have more specific advice
17:20:43 <kmc> wash them when they smell or feel weird or have disconcerting stains
17:20:56 <Taneb> I think not doing what I did would be a good start.
17:21:05 <Taneb> These haven't been off my bed since the end of September :(
17:21:15 <zzo38> What did you did at first?
17:21:20 <kmc> that is sub-optimal
17:21:25 <kmc> <kmc> rustc has a flag that prints out the elapsed time for each compiler pass as they run (some 40 or so of them)
17:21:28 <kmc> here's what that looks like: https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/acb1df198dbac070263f
17:21:33 <zzo38> You should probably clean it
17:21:34 <kmc> for building rustc itself
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17:37:22 <Melvar> zzo38: “al-” is the definite article, “allah” is more literally “the god”.
17:40:22 <olsner> Taneb: now you have an upper bound of how long you can use the same bedsheets, now wash them and keep them for half as long and see if you pass an inspection
17:40:50 <olsner> (if you do, take the average, and so on until you have found the maximum acceptable bedsheet age)
17:41:32 <olsner> this can also be a way to make it fun to switch bedsheets regularly
17:42:15 <Taneb> olsner, I feel like 1 month is possibly too long
17:42:26 <Taneb> 9 months is really bad
17:45:56 <olsner> it depends on how dirty you are and how much of it you rub into the sheets, I think
17:46:56 <olsner> and on how dusty the room is, and whether you make the bed with a cover or not (so that the dust settles in the sheets), etc
17:47:13 <olsner> if you wet the bed you may also need to switch more often
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17:56:25 <kmc> "WebGL 2 is based on what we think will be in OpenGL ES 3, which is the stuff in OpenGL 4"
17:56:30 <kmc> can't they just skip some to make the numbers match up
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17:59:41 <fizzie> They don't want to confuse people.
17:59:46 <olsner> or just have a single "OpenGL" that includes the ES and Web stuff
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18:06:02 <zzo38> Melvar: O, OK thanks
18:07:28 <Bicyclidine> when did C get // comments because shouldn't those work
18:07:59 <Bicyclidine> god knows why a C program is including an .hpp. C/C++ i guess
18:08:37 <fizzie> (As an extension probably before that, too.)
18:08:40 <Bicyclidine> Do any gcc flags turn that off? -ansi or something maybe?
18:08:54 <fizzie> Well, -ansi is the same as -std=c89 which does not include them.
18:09:10 <fowl> this would be a good source for fungot http://www.scribd.com/doc/225960813/Elliot-Rodger-Santa-Barbara-mass-shooting-suspect-My-Twisted-World-manifesto
18:09:11 <fungot> fowl: what's a chatterbot then. no way sir, that i do
18:09:40 <Bicyclidine> fungot already quotes, what, nixon? that's gross enough already
18:09:40 <fungot> Bicyclidine: perhaps we should celebrate these days with guys like simon peyton-jones, simon fnord, etc
18:09:59 <Bicyclidine> not really soon so much as that the rodger thing is just gross
18:10:18 <Bicyclidine> the manifesto i mean, by itself, in addition to the shooting
18:10:55 <Bicyclidine> i guess if you wanted fungot to talk like a gross murderer you could go with Industrial Society and Its Future or something
18:10:55 <fungot> Bicyclidine: later tell riastradh http://tmp.barzilay.org/ r.txt: (
18:11:25 <fowl> Bicyclidine, ok :)
18:12:02 <Bicyclidine> fungot what's your support for made-up scripts like
18:12:02 <fungot> Bicyclidine: what's a respectable typing speed? i'm getting tired. must sleep... hiking trip tomorrow... have a flex question for you
18:13:54 <Bicyclidine> the worst part about the C thing is that the file is the complex.hpp that (re)implements complex arithmetic. it uses no C++ features, other than // comments I guess.
18:15:15 <Bicyclidine> yes, but - hilarity continuing here - this has to be compiled with -ansi, probably because for matlab's ffi, which also complains that my gcc is too new
18:17:10 <olsner> I wonder if that fnord was marlow
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18:18:41 <fizzie> olsner: You are correct. You win ten (10) FunPoints.
18:19:57 <fizzie> You may redeem your FunPoints for fabulous prizes at THIS FEATURE NOT FINISHED YET.
18:20:23 <olsner> Bicyclidine: what part of -ansi does it require?
18:20:30 <olsner> if it relies on somehting that changed in c99 vs c90 (whatever that might be) you could try something like gnu90 to get comments and useful stuff but otherwise c90
18:30:05 <Bicyclidine> still not sure what the hell "#include <math.h> /* Added for MS Visual C++ Compatibility 1999 */" is supposed to mean
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18:34:14 <FireFly> Bicyclidine: // comments predate C
18:34:31 <FireFly> At least according to the Wikipedia article on BCPL
18:41:46 <mroman> Bicyclidine: Maybe in the compiler he used some stdlib header also included math
18:42:13 <kmc> `addquote <fungot> Bicyclidine: perhaps we should celebrate these days with guys like simon peyton-jones, simon fnord, etc
18:42:14 <fungot> kmc: srfi-7 doesn't standardize that, so you can't extend arbitrarly your plugin, if you half-ass something but provide the right social cues then you get 4
18:42:15 <HackEgo> 1200) <fungot> Bicyclidine: perhaps we should celebrate these days with guys like simon peyton-jones, simon fnord, etc
18:42:26 <kmc> fungot: I love halfassing social cues
18:42:26 <fungot> kmc: install-info does exist internally." page 7, under heading 5, evaluation.
18:42:35 <Bicyclidine> if noiseType == 0 randn('seed', 37) <-- chosen by fair die, guaranteed random
18:43:50 <Bicyclidine> "The latter method requires recursion and is computationally very expensive."
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18:58:35 <zzo38> /* ... */ comments in C are actually a bit somewhat problematic if you want to divide by a value that a variable points to; you would then need a space or parenthses.
18:59:13 <olsner> you should have spaces around binary operators anyway
19:03:23 <FireFly> The slashes situation is worsened in JS due to the existence of slash-delimited regex literals
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19:04:03 <lifthrasiir> except that a valid regex cannot start with a Kleene star
19:04:04 <zzo38> FireFly: That is only if you are commenting out a regex literal though, since a regex doesn't start with /*
19:04:19 <FireFly> the empty string is a valid regex though
19:04:28 <FireFly> which interferes with single-line comments
19:04:56 <lifthrasiir> AFAIK Perl 6 does not allow an empty pattern as well
19:05:09 <Bicyclidine> damn i was about to ask how perl dealt with that since it was no doubt funny
19:05:40 <FireFly> I think it's possible to have "//" not trigger a line-comment in JS actully
19:05:59 <FireFly> if you divide a regex literal by something
19:06:06 <Bicyclidine> elseviers puts their impact factors and it is the funniest shit
19:06:25 <zzo38> I don't know why you would want to divide a regex literal by anything, but a regex might end with \//
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19:10:02 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: tell thank you thanks thesaurus thx tic-tac-toe ticker time todo todo-add todo-delete type v @ ? .
19:10:56 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
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19:12:02 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
19:15:10 <olsner> -- starts a comment btw, hth
19:15:36 <Taneb> Yeah, took me too long to realise
19:17:11 <int-e> > let (+)--+--(-) = 42 in (-)--+--(+)--but not always
19:17:37 <olsner> > let 2 --++ 2 = 5 in 2 --++ 2
19:17:59 <int-e> (confusingly, ---- does start a comment)
19:18:23 <int-e> Haskell has some weird corners
19:18:27 <olsner> I think any sequence of (more than two) -s is a comment?
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19:20:33 <zzo38> Can you play pot-limit hold'em? How commonly do you know if chess clubs will have poker and other games too instead of only chess?
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19:23:26 <kmc> how about chess boxing
19:33:23 <Taneb> I am worried that I am one of those people who is "good at maths", and I've never really had to push myself
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19:33:44 <Taneb> And now I don't know how to learn
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19:40:03 <Melvar> I don’t think it’s impostor syndrome he’s describing …
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19:43:03 <kmc> that would depend on a bunch of information you don't have
19:43:15 <kmc> it's a valid concern and I don't want to dismiss it as a delusion
19:48:42 <Bicyclidine> you could get a really hard math book. i was "good at math" and i got a bunch of books that i can't read through and just kind of look at sometimes, slowly getting a bit better
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20:05:40 <Taneb> Bicyclidine, this is probably separate from my imposter syndrome
20:08:18 <olsner> if you had it excessively easy before, it makes sense if you're lazy now
20:14:21 <Taneb> Bicyclidine, any you'd recommend?
20:15:33 <Taneb> But it's expeeeensiiiiive
20:15:48 <mcpherrin> I had a dream last night I found a copy of TAOCP at a used bookstore for $10
20:15:52 <Taneb> But it's raaaaaaining
20:16:26 <Bicyclidine> Taneb: http://www.math.upenn.edu/~wilf/AeqB.html this one's free for your computer. there is no escape.
20:17:55 <Taneb> I ought to get a copy of Euclid's Elements
20:18:47 <Bicyclidine> honestly i think reading classics is overrated
20:19:10 <Bicyclidine> their methods and culture are just so different from modern math
20:19:11 <Taneb> Even if it is just as a bookshelf decoration
20:19:20 <fizzie> They sold extra copies of SICP at the university bookstore (after our Introduction to Programming course switched from Scheme to Java or Python or something) for something like 5 EUR.
20:19:28 <fizzie> Some people bought lots, to give away to people.
20:19:49 <Bicyclidine> Taneb: also, you can get books really cheap on amazon, like five bucks USD (so probably a pound cos our economy's shit), such as Counterexamples in Topology
20:20:01 <Bicyclidine> which, iirc, was recommended by some esolang guy? cpresseY?
20:20:22 <Bicyclidine> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Chris_Pressey#Esoteric_Reading_List.21 yeah
20:21:32 <Bicyclidine> other than that there's like, that book on kolmogorov complexity that uses the taocp answer system
20:21:52 <Bicyclidine> or like, you like haskell probably, so one or two of pierce's books i guess
20:23:12 <Taneb> Types and Programming Languages costs £50 :(
20:25:06 <Bicyclidine> maybe get some cheapish ones... dover has a bunch of old (like, 60s?) good texts, like Introductory Real Analysis by Kolmogorov, for like ten bucks
20:25:30 <Bicyclidine> the cheapness because they're not hardcover :P
20:26:52 <Bicyclidine> i mean maybe you odn't give a shit about real analysis though, in which case you could just find a good used bookstore, or wnader through your university library
20:27:10 <Taneb> My university does have a library, hmm
20:27:22 <Bicyclidine> have you ever wanted three hundred years of research on generalized continued fractions? ~it's in the library~
20:27:45 <Bicyclidine> i mean you go like, york, right? it's not some puny community college, and even those are usually pretty good
20:27:51 <Taneb> I might wander in after my grand beginning-of-June adventure
20:28:34 <Bicyclidine> honestly if i have work or something to do i usually just do it in the library, and goof off by reading books instead of by reading the internet
20:29:52 <Taneb> Probably a good idea
20:30:21 <Bicyclidine> just a state school. Washington State University
20:30:28 <Bicyclidine> presently i am sitting here putting off reading about ears
20:31:21 <Bicyclidine> but, the engineering library is six stories, and has everything from Bifurcation Theory to The Soviet Anti-Plague System
20:31:41 <Taneb> We only have the one library
20:31:45 <shachaf> six stories? that's not a v. big library
20:31:49 <Taneb> Except for a number of tiny libraries dotted about
20:31:55 <Taneb> Which I have never seen
20:31:58 <shachaf> are they at least split across six books
20:32:13 <Taneb> Despite both the maths and computer science departments having a tiny library
20:32:18 <Bicyclidine> well, we have this six story library, and there's the main library that's two buildings with like three floors (but it's more history, social sorta stuff), and a veterinary library that's a few rooms
20:32:37 <Bicyclidine> oh, and are you a math student? i don't know how research works in math but you might try that
20:33:07 <Taneb> Maths and Computer Science
20:33:13 <Bicyclidine> the library at this campus is small by comparison, it has World of Warcraft Programming Second Edition
20:33:42 <Bicyclidine> well i don't know how that works but you might try looking at faculty profiles and asking somebody that seems interesting for work
20:33:51 <Bicyclidine> if you want to be a mathematologist, anyway, i don't know
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20:34:58 <Taneb> Right, I've found the Computer Science library on Google Maps
20:35:00 <Bicyclidine> in my experience uni professors are more than willing to talk at somebody who displays any interest, even if they're a dirty undergrad
20:35:07 <fizzie> I've told this before, but there was a maths journal on the "recent issues" table at the university library, and it had a fascinating picture in the inner side of the cover, and it was titled: "Fig. 1: A fascinating picture."
20:36:05 <fizzie> I think it was some sort of a graph.
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20:45:08 <int-e> so true. "People get unhappy when a computer blinks its lights for"
20:45:09 <int-e> a while and then announces a result, if people cannot easily check the truth of the
20:45:12 <int-e> result for themselves.
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20:49:14 <olsner> huh, I never check the results
20:50:22 <int-e> olsner: the audience is mathematicians. they prefer humanly checkable proofs. see also http://star.psy.ohio-state.edu/coglab/Miracle.html
20:53:48 <int-e> (Requiring too much work to check is also an issue, as can be seen in the criticism of the Appel & Haaken proof of the four color theorem, which was partly justified.)
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21:26:19 <ais523_> huh, someone proved a false statement in Agda (presumably due to a compiler bug): https://proofmarket.org/problem/viewa/58
21:26:29 <ais523_> don't really know enough Agda to follow the proof, though
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21:33:42 <kmc> working with a bunch of PL nerds is so much fun
21:36:54 <Taneb> ais523_, #agda has "We last proved false on <date>" in the topic
21:37:03 <Taneb> Currently 11th of May
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21:37:44 <HackEgo> Today is Pungenday, the 7th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3180
21:37:45 <ais523_> writing sound type systems is hard
21:38:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: sdate: not found
21:39:10 <kmc> I think somebody is working on a proof of soundness for Rust this summer
21:39:13 <kmc> non-mechanized :/
21:39:48 <zzo38> I also wrote a implementation of that ddate in ifMUD too, although the output format is a bit different: "Today is Pungenday, Confusion 7, YOLD 3180." Still, I am glad that these two dates are in agreement!
21:40:19 <Taneb> ais523_, the weird bit in that is the definition of eq
21:40:35 <Taneb> Which asserts that foo and bar are different
21:41:00 <Taneb> But they are both values of the unit type defined in slightly different ways
21:41:56 <ais523_> hmm... ((), 1), ((), ()) is different from ((), 0), ((), ()) in most programming languages
21:42:22 <Taneb> Yes, but the first element of the second element of those two tuples are the same in most programming languages
21:42:46 <Bicyclidine> so i guess the difference between 0 and 1 spreads somehow.
21:43:11 <zzo38> ais523_: Are they the people who wrote Agda they payment in case of the bug like Knuth does with TeX and METAFONT, or is it different?
21:43:45 <ais523_> zzo38: it's a bit different; the Agda devs don't pay for things like that, but the link in question indicates that someone did pay for the proof, anonymously
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21:46:05 <zzo38> I think how the HOPE conference accepts payment by bitcoins too
21:51:23 <zzo38> That proof does not have any = line for eq; is that wrong?
21:51:54 <Taneb> zzo38, no, the "eq ()" means "There are no cases to match against"
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21:52:40 <Bicyclidine> it turns a proof that foo = bar into bottom?
21:53:03 <Taneb> Yes, because the type checker thinks foo != bar
21:53:10 <zzo38> How do you know that there are no cases to match against? How does the equivalence sign work anyways?
21:53:34 <Bicyclidine> zzo38: well the return type is bottom so it's not like it could return anything
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22:16:36 <idris-bot> Data type = : ({A0} : Type) -> ({B0} : Type) -> A -> B -> Type
22:16:36 <idris-bot> The propositional equality type. A proof that x = y.
22:16:36 <idris-bot> To use such a proof, pattern-match on it, and the two equal things will then need to be the same pattern.
22:16:36 <idris-bot> Note: Idris's equality type is heterogeneous, which means that it is possible to state equalities between values of potentially different types. This is
22:16:36 <idris-bot> sometimes referred to in the literature as "John Major" equality.↵…
22:19:40 <elliott> “It is now time to reveal the definition of ≃, the ‘John Major’ equality relation. (Footnote 2: John Major was the last ever leader of the Conservative Party to be Prime Minister (1990 to 1997) of the United Kingdom, in case he has slipped your mind.) John Major’s ‘classless society’ widened people’s aspirations to equality, but also the gap between rich and poor. After all, aspiring to be equal to others than oneself is the ...
22:19:46 <elliott> ... politics of envy. In much the same way, ≃ forms equations between members of any type, but they cannot be treated as equals (ie substituted) unless they are of the same type. Just as before, each thing is only equal to itself.”
22:21:14 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I'd presume it's an old quote
22:21:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: he was an optimist at the time
22:22:14 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought it was some kind of pedantic joke, like with labour/new labour
22:22:39 <Bicyclidine> this is the view from the left guy, right? some kind of "Left ist"
22:23:49 <shachaf> whoa, I never ended up reading /The view from the left/. :-(
22:25:35 <Bicyclidine> i'm not in the right mindset to find mcbride's jokes funny, tho :/
22:28:58 <zzo38> I have used a kind of equality that works between different types, in Haskell, by using (Eq, Typeable)
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22:31:31 <zzo38> Do you know much about LALR(1) parsing?
22:34:07 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘:’
22:34:16 <idris-bot> A proof that x in fact equals x. To construct this, you must have already shown that both sides are in fact equal.
22:34:16 <idris-bot> (implicit) {A0} : Type -- the type at which the equality is proven
22:34:16 <idris-bot> (implicit) {x0} : A -- the element shown to be equal to itself.
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22:35:47 <Melvar> ( :t vectNilRightNeutral
22:35:47 <idris-bot> Prelude.Vect.vectNilRightNeutral : (xs : Vect n a) -> xs ++ [] = xs
22:36:09 <Melvar> ↑ use of heterogeneous equality
22:37:10 <Bicyclidine> it's funny how i keep thinking of things in terms of taking and returning arguments, when that's clearly fucking hopeless
22:38:31 <Bicyclidine> basically i have no idea what any of this means
22:38:58 <Melvar> ( :t \n,a, xs : Vect n a => xs ++ []
22:38:58 <idris-bot> \n => \a => \xs => xs ++ [] : (n : Nat) -> (a : Type) -> Vect n a -> Vect (n + 0) a
22:40:51 <Melvar> The left side of the equals is a Vect (n + 0) a, the right side is a Vect n a, which don’t immediately unify (you can prove they’re equal though), so if the equality were homogeneous, you’d have to rewrite one side within the type of vectNilRightNeutral to state the equality.
22:40:51 <elliott> Bicyclidine: think of it as a forall
22:43:20 <shachaf> "taking and returning arguments" is a good way to think about it.
22:43:45 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘:’
22:43:49 <idris-bot> Prelude.Basics.the : (a : Type) -> a -> a
22:44:17 * Melvar kicks self for mixing up his prefixes for the second time.
22:46:29 <zzo38> Why is Bison parser generator so much larger (when compressed) than Lemon parser generator (when uncompressed)?
22:46:53 <Melvar> But anyway, the is the way to do type annotations in idris.
22:46:57 <idris-bot> Control.Category.id : Category cat => cat a a
22:47:26 <Melvar> id is the same, but with an implicit argument (hence the a is underlined).
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22:48:30 <Taneb> https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t1.0-9/s480x480/282298_10150894076356344_561739999_n.jpg
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22:50:37 <kmc> o_O https://github.com/mozilla/rust/blob/master/src/librustc/middle/ty.rs#L1091-L1142
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22:53:08 <int-e> kmc: that should not come as a surprise after seeing lines 240 to 259.
22:53:50 <Sgeo> http://www.babylonjs.com/ not so sure about the library, but I love these demos
22:54:03 <Sgeo> I don't know why people are saying it's a Microsoft clone of Three.JS
22:54:19 <kmc> pub trait_impls: RefCell<DefIdMap<Rc<RefCell<Vec<ast::DefId>>>>>
22:54:23 <kmc> that's quite the type
22:57:20 <int-e> what's the Rc<> thing?
22:57:34 <mcpherrin> int-e: Rc<T> is a reference counted T
22:57:37 <kmc> Rc<T> is a refcounted box containing T
22:57:48 <kmc> even if T isn't cloneable, you can clone Rc<T>; you get another pointer to the same underlying object
22:57:53 <kmc> it's much like std::shared_ptr<T> in C++
22:58:12 <kmc> RefCell<T> is "interior mutability"; it basically moves Rust's alias checking to runtime
22:58:14 <Sgeo> You can clone, but can you send? (I'd hope not... I think?)
22:58:20 <kmc> Sgeo: nope, but you can send Arc<T>
22:58:23 <kmc> ("atomic reference counting")
22:58:38 <kmc> if you have a no-mutation reference to an object, you can still mutate stuff inside a RefCell
22:58:49 <kmc> i.e. you can go from &RefCell<T> to &mut T, approximately
22:59:24 <kmc> doing so sets a flag at runtime saying "this thing is borrowed mutably", and what it gives you is actually a smart pointer which un-sets that flag on destruction
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22:59:44 <kmc> if the value has already been borrowed, it's a task failure
23:00:07 <kmc> DefId and DefIdMap are rustc internal types for definitions and maps keyed on definitions
23:00:22 <Melvar> Why does that need a special Map?
23:00:38 <kmc> well it's a typedef: http://doc.rust-lang.org/rustc/util/nodemap/type.DefIdMap.html
23:00:58 <kmc> and FnvHashMap is another typedef for a standard collections::hashmap::HashMap
23:01:29 <kmc> "FnvHasher: ... A speedy hash algorithm for node ids and def ids. The hashmap in libcollections by default uses SipHash which isn't quite as speedy as we want. In the compiler we're not really worried about DOS attempts, so we just default to a non-cryptographic hash."
23:03:08 <kmc> whoa, TIL rust has default type parameters
23:03:12 -!- madbr has joined.
23:03:16 <kmc> pub struct HashMap<K, V, H = sip::SipHasher> { ...
23:03:40 <mcpherrin> kmc: haha yeah they're pretty shiny
23:04:02 <mcpherrin> Hashmap was the first user, and I'd bet $1 still the only major one :p
23:04:13 <zzo38> Is this how a LALR(1) parser is supposed to work? list(A) ::= beginlist(B) listitems RBRACKET. { A=doc->group; doc->group=B; } beginlist(A) ::= LBRACKET. { A=doc->group; doc->group=zcdsf_value_empty_list(0); }
23:04:13 <mcpherrin> (allocators were/are going to do the same
23:04:36 <zzo38> I don't quite understand it if it is OK or not
23:05:15 <fowl> in my progrmaming language " will be the ditto operator, it refers to the operator or word above it
23:05:36 <mcpherrin> fowl: immediately above, as in line-column wise?
23:06:08 <Melvar> kmc: How does a Hasher work independently of the key type?
23:06:19 <olsner> something like a default initialization would be pretty great for that initializer of doom
23:06:33 <mcpherrin> Melvar: The key type implements a trait
23:06:50 <Bicyclidine> Can you define hash functions for your own types?
23:07:29 <Melvar> mcpherrin: And this is not noted on the type declaration, or is kmc’s above incorrect?
23:07:34 <Bicyclidine> assuming you don't need other equality, i guess
23:08:44 <mcpherrin> Melvar: the Hashmap itself doesn't care, just the hasher
23:10:16 <mcpherrin> The traits implemented on the HashMap do, though
23:10:40 <mcpherrin> impl<K: Eq + Hash<S>, V, S, H: Hasher<S>> HashMap<K, V, H>
23:11:22 <kmc> well that's not a trait for HashMap, it's just the plain non-trait methods of HashMap, but otherwise yeah
23:12:04 <mcpherrin> yeah I just copied the first relevant line from rustdoc:P
23:12:08 <mcpherrin> impl<K: Eq + Hash<S>, V, S, H: Hasher<S>> MutableMap<K, V> for HashMap<K, V, H>
23:12:08 <Melvar> Ah, so the constraint is not on the data structure, but on the functions. Thank you.
23:12:22 <kmc> I don't think we even support constraints on data structures?
23:12:35 <kmc> I am not sure
23:12:52 <Taneb> I am not very good at person
23:13:26 <Taneb> I feel that that should have a winky face somewhere
23:13:47 <idris-bot> BotPrelude.ShowGlue : a -> String => Show a
23:13:47 <mcpherrin> kmc: Uh, apparently not trait bounds though :P
23:13:59 <kmc> mcpherrin: what other kind of constraints are there?
23:14:06 <kmc> Taneb: what aspect(s)?
23:14:23 <kmc> you mean like struct Foo<T: 'static> { ... } ?
23:14:39 <Taneb> kmc, currently, putting bedsheets back on beds
23:14:40 <kmc> 'static is the only lifetime which can be used that way, right?
23:14:50 <kmc> I still don't totally undersand what it means
23:15:04 <mcpherrin> I don't know if I've ever seen a struct templated that way
23:15:09 <Bicyclidine> oh no is rust continuing the proud tradition of static being wonky as hell
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23:15:35 <mcpherrin> Bicyclidine: 'static isn't C's whatever-we-want-today keyword :-)
23:15:49 <mcpherrin> It's the lifetime of data that lives "forever"
23:16:10 <Bicyclidine> oh so like the kind of thing that is serialized into a binary, ok.
23:16:35 <mcpherrin> you can have static mutable data, but it's unsafe
23:16:40 <Melvar> I think idris has a static keyword somehow … it indicates that some argument must be fully known at compile time I think.
23:16:42 <kmc> because it gives you task-shared mutability
23:16:51 <kmc> so you can only use it in the unsafe dialect
23:17:08 <kmc> it's fine, it's just like "let mut"
23:17:24 <mcpherrin> kmc: were you around for the great "what to call static" debates?
23:17:39 <Bicyclidine> it's stored in the dynamic library binary, so, call it dynamic
23:18:12 <kmc> a 'static bound on a type asserts that all refs in the type have static lifetime, I think, but I'm not sure
23:18:49 <kmc> mcpherrin: no
23:18:52 <kmc> Bicyclidine: :3
23:19:58 <kmc> std::cell defines Cell and RefCell and Ref and RefMut B|
23:20:04 <kmc> I know what they all need, but the naming is a bit confusing
23:20:29 <kmc> what they all mean*
23:23:25 <mcpherrin> "`static mut` looks weird" was a common opinion
23:28:49 <kmc> "life is weird, get used to it"
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23:32:07 <Bicyclidine> more C questions: if i calloc an array of doubles, does the zero memory have to equal numeric zero?
23:33:02 <zzo38> The zero memory corresponds to integer zero. I have not had problems using it as floating point, though.
23:33:41 <scp> Bicyclidine: yes
23:33:42 <fowl> ieee floats are
23:34:39 <scp> this is because of the (useful/planned) coincidence that double(+0.0f) has the same representation as a uint64_t(0)
23:34:52 <scp> calloc doesn't know anything about floats/doubles
23:35:29 <Bicyclidine> i'm imagining the ol' fuckyoutron 8000 having a 0.0f not made of zero bytes
23:35:36 <HackEgo> 847) <zzo38> What is portable way of load/save floating points in files, using a C code? <kmc> #ifndef __STDC_IEC_559__ #error Here's a nickel, kid. Buy a real computer. #endif
23:36:02 <Bicyclidine> i mean, i don't know the ins and outs of floats.
23:36:14 <elliott> I think this might be one of the things you could DS9k
23:37:04 <Bicyclidine> this code is bullshit conformance-wise so i'm asking out of curiosity more than anything :P
23:38:55 <olsner> the boring part about actually building a ds9k is that no existing software would build and work on it
23:39:14 <zzo38> olsner: I doubt it; some software may work.
23:39:51 <zzo38> Also, some software might compile but fail to run properly, while others will result in compile errors since the program contains things to make the compiler to check.
23:40:52 <olsner> I doubt OpenSSL is actually valid enough C, it rather has a wide collection of differently non-conformant hacks, and would need a completely new set to work on ds9k
23:41:31 <zzo38> For example you use the negative-array-size trick.
23:43:37 <Sgeo> So many abstractions in the WebGL world
23:43:56 <Sgeo> tQuery = abstraction of ThreeJS = abstraction of abstraction of WebGL
23:45:01 <olsner> Bike: the fuckyoutron8k could be the budget model of the ds9k
23:45:58 <Bicyclidine> i don't know why i've never seen static variables used for defining a filter, that i can remember... outside of that one OS i guess
23:46:54 <zzo38> I have used negative-array-size trick, which is like: struct { char unused[sizeof(long)>=sizeof(void*)?1:-5]; } and similar things like that.
23:46:57 <kmc> http://shitgonutssays.tumblr.com/
23:47:14 <zzo38> A variable of this structure type is not declared, therefore don't waste memory.
23:47:53 <zzo38> How common is stuff like this?
23:48:58 <Bicyclidine> pike seems like kind of an ass from this, o well
23:49:59 <kmc> just a little ;_;
23:50:38 <Bicyclidine> that childish things quote was so much improved by lewis
23:52:08 <Taneb> I am also not very good at booking train tickets
23:53:41 <Phantom__Hoover> i have lost an awful lot of money to my own stupidity in and around trains
23:53:42 <Bicyclidine> this code is rapidly making me think C is not good for writing signal processing in
23:54:19 <Bicyclidine> i don't know what could possess something to define a basic looking linear filter on the last few intermediates, and then allocating storage for intermediates over the entire input signal
23:54:29 <Bicyclidine> possess someone*, i imagine this isn't computer generator
00:03:10 <kmc> Taneb: where are you going?
00:03:28 <kmc> Taneb: also would you like to join #trains
00:04:07 <Taneb> kmc, I'm going back and forth between Hexham and York
00:04:34 <Taneb> And I feel like I would be out of place in #trains
00:04:59 <mcpherrin> Taneb: it's just more of me and kmc having the same conversations about rust :P
00:05:19 <Taneb> I'LL JOIN THE CHANNEL ON TRIAL
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00:08:12 <kmc> mcpherrin: I think we should try not to talk about Rust so much there
00:08:15 <Taneb> It's also a channel on t'rail
00:08:31 <Taneb> (I am in Yorkshire, after all)
00:10:20 <kmc> i've been thinking about complexity vs. lines of code
00:10:24 <kmc> sometimes more code is less complex
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00:10:41 <kmc> 200 lines where you only need to understand 10 lines to make a single change, vs 100 lines where you need to understand it all
00:11:01 <kmc> this is the supposed benefit of all the AbstractSingletonFactoryProxyBean verbosity I guess
00:11:20 <kmc> but they take it way too far in Java because the language doesn't have the power to define /concise/ abstractions
00:11:32 <kmc> but still, concise abstractions are more code than no abstraction at all
00:11:48 <kmc> (in many cases)
00:13:44 <mcpherrin> kmc: yeah I'm pretty bad at randomly picking channels to talk about things in
00:14:43 <mcpherrin> (and not noticing when people are annoyed on IRC; hard to emotions with words)
00:16:53 <madbr> how hard would it be to make a language with zero aliasing, without being functional like haskel
00:17:57 <madbr> I'm jungling with some design wher everything is copy-on-write
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00:19:01 <madbr> but then the problem is if you did something like, say, call some opengl function way down deep the call tree, then every level needs to have the whole opengl context as an argument
00:20:53 <madbr> you'd need some way to have it as an argument but hide it
00:21:35 <madbr> like the compiler figures out your function down the call tree needs the opengl context and adds it as a hidden argument to all the call tree levels in between
00:28:04 <madbr> alias is why the fastest CPU is still a souped up P2
00:28:46 <zzo38> I do not entirely understand how and why.
00:28:50 <madbr> alias is why x86 was never left in the dust because other architecture never got faster than x86
00:29:15 <madbr> once you pass the first pass of C++ compilation, your program is in SSA form
00:29:24 <madbr> ie every varaible is assigned once
00:29:33 <zzo38> I know LLVM, which is using SSA form
00:29:50 <madbr> you'd want the compiler to be able to do nice optimizations like auto-vectorization
00:30:04 <Taneb> kmc, help I have drawn someone to #trains
00:30:42 <madbr> most of the time this is impossible because your loop to be optimized is going to do memory reading/writing
00:31:11 <madbr> due to the fact that in C++ pointers can point essentially everywhere, it's impossible to change the order of memory reads and writes
00:31:56 <madbr> which means that even if you unroll the loop to be optimized you can't group your math operations together and do SIMD because those math operations can't be moved
00:32:10 <madbr> because they are sandwitched between unmovable memory operations
00:32:28 <madbr> that means also that all your memory operations cannot be grouped together and turned into SIMD
00:32:40 <zzo38> In some cases you can tell what a pointer is not pointing to, though.
00:32:58 <madbr> which means that no matter what you do your code is going to contain a ton of individual 32bit loads and stores
00:32:59 <zzo38> (Even if you don't know what it is pointing to)
00:34:04 <madbr> if you consider that a L1 cache can do 1 operation per cycle (or possibly 2 in recent intel cpus) that means if your code is 33% memory loads then you can never do more than 3 operations per cycle
00:34:09 <kmc> fn check_decl(&mut self, cx: &Context, d: &ast::Decl) { cx.span_lint(d.span, "This declaration contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm"); }
00:34:28 <madbr> so a gpu-style massively parallel CPU is impossible
00:34:43 <madbr> to make it possible you need to be able to group memory loads/stores
00:35:10 <zzo38> Then make the command in the programming language, to group memory loads/stores.
00:35:28 <oerjan> kmc: is it the &'s that cause cancer
00:35:47 <madbr> but if you make an architecture like that the C++ can't compile code that's going to go faster than x86 because it can't group loads/stores
00:35:52 <madbr> zzo38 : already exists
00:36:06 <zzo38> And to explicitly specify what a pointer doesn't point to
00:36:07 <madbr> problem: very few people use them
00:36:26 <zzo38> Will SSE intrinsics work on non-SSE computers?
00:36:42 <madbr> non-SSE computers are very rare by now
00:36:50 <madbr> everything that's x64 has SSE2
00:37:42 <zzo38> But you might want to run a program on non-SSE computers, especially if someone also make up the new one like that
00:38:40 <madbr> zzo38 : then you can never go faster than dumb C++ code compiled by MSVC and running on a Pentium2 derivative
00:39:47 <kmc> madbr: did you know there's apparently a roughly accurate microarchitectural simulator for Core? http://www.marss86.org/~marss86/index.php/Home
00:40:17 <kmc> they have a list of the uops they've discovered
00:40:25 <zzo38> You don't have to necessarily using C++ then anyways. It could be programming language that doesn't require SSE intrinsics, it could do differently, in a way compatible with any computer.
00:40:47 <kmc> pcwalton told me it's within 5-10% of real instruction timings
00:40:56 <madbr> zzo38 : that's why I'm talking about designing a language with no aliasing
00:41:20 <Bike> wait wait, so the x86 risc core thingie?
00:41:20 <zzo38> Such as make a block that hint to the compiler that it doesn't matter what order they are in. Such optimization hint can help even with processor that don't do any such thing.
00:41:31 <kmc> Bike: roughly yeah
00:41:40 <madbr> zzo38 : if your language has aliasing it essentially turns into C++ and then you can't go faster than C++ code compiled on MSVC runnning on a Pentium2 derivative, intel wins, microsoft wins
00:41:59 <kmc> madbr: hm, you could easily add a lint to Rust which forbids immutable & pointers, at which point you'd have approximately no aliasing
00:42:09 <kmc> of course it would break all existing code including the whole stdlib
00:42:14 <Bike> note to self: throw "restrict" on everything and see what happens
00:42:25 <kmc> #define int int restrict
00:42:26 <madbr> kmc : yeah exactly
00:42:33 <zzo38> You might want aliasing though, but it can help to be able to specify, which things a pointer doesn't point to.
00:42:59 <madbr> it's hard to have aliasing "just somewhere"
00:43:11 <zzo38> madbr: Microsoft isn't the only C++ compiler. There is also GCC and clang. And there is also other programming languages than C++, such as C and Forth.
00:43:15 <kmc> madbr: C and Rust both have it, though
00:43:23 <Bike> actually this might actually be relevant, since i'm doing dsp... though with no realtime restrictions
00:43:46 <Bike> also not overwriting earlier parts of the signal but who knows how smart gcc is i guess
00:43:59 <madbr> atm the best way to do it is SSE intrinsics
00:44:12 <madbr> x86 only but it works on GCC and MSVC
00:44:32 <Bike> oh. hell i fi know. i just grabbed a book on DSp since i know basically nothing about it
00:44:35 <zzo38> madbr: That's too bad if you cannot do it in a system-independent way. That is why it is never used.
00:44:46 <Bike> also everything is nonlinear, dunno if sse cares about that
00:45:01 <zzo38> If you want a x86 program you can also write in x86 assembly language and take advantage of every single instruction even though the C compiler won't do.
00:45:18 <madbr> zzo38 : there's no point
00:45:30 <zzo38> It is why I suggest other ways to do it
00:45:36 <madbr> zzo38 : essentially the only opcodes that will probably give you a gain is SSE operations
00:46:47 <madbr> zzo38 : everything else, except a few special cases (like bit reverse or count-leading-bits opcodes) you're not going to gain anything over C++
00:47:52 <madbr> in fact if it's not number crunching code your chances of winning anything are slim because it's probably going to be bottlenecked by the latency level of some level of cache
00:48:06 <zzo38> I know GCC has builtins for count-leading-bits, and Black-C has a compiler hint to specify that a given function implements count-leading-bits (resulting in undefined behavior if the function does not, in fact, implement that)
00:48:30 <madbr> zzo38 : yeah that's why those intrinsics exist
00:48:40 <Bike> nonlinear? <-- i dunno, i say "nonlinear" and everyone's liek "shit that's hard"
00:49:00 <madbr> nonlinear in what way?
00:49:01 <zzo38> And what about, BCD arithmetic? Sometimes I want to use it.
00:49:26 <Bike> just no lines in this shit
00:50:00 <madbr> zzo38 : heh, I kinda wonder
00:50:24 <Bike> i started today, ok, gimme some slack
00:50:34 <madbr> if you compare the speed of code that uses BCD opcodes vs code that doesn't, which one is going to be faster?
00:52:15 <oerjan> bitcoin looks to still be in a growth period, 50% up in the last month (mostly last 14 days)
00:52:26 <madbr> you'd think the bcd opcodes would help but sometimes those opcodes are implemented in some super slow way
00:52:28 <Sgeo> WebRTC is poorly named, it has uses other than real-time communication
00:52:53 <madbr> or even like some ~5 cycle per operation way that's still going to lose to some fast table lookup
00:53:19 <mcpherrin> Sgeo: well WebRTC is really the name of the project/goal, and encapsulates teh tech needed to get that
00:53:29 <elliott> oerjan: nice $666 buy price on coinbase
00:53:42 <Bike> [revelations quote]
00:53:51 <Bike> the blockchain: tool of the antichrist
00:54:02 <madbr> zzo38 : actually maybe you should check if there are some intrinsics for that
00:54:47 <madbr> or get some ibm clunker server that has, like, hardware decimal floating point (which exists! - unfortunately)
00:55:02 <Bike> also, note to transhuman dorks: sejnowski thinks we might be able to record a million (whoa) neurons simultaneously by 2030. get hype!!
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00:58:26 <oerjan> Bike: well millionfold increase is just 20 doublings with a moore's law thing going
00:58:46 <zzo38> madbr: I don't know, sorry
00:58:59 <Bike> lol cell recordings arne't photolithography
00:59:30 <oerjan> Bike: i understand genome sequencing has a pretty good growth rate, so it's not _just_ electronics...
00:59:38 <zzo38> I tried to make these and other improvement in the Black-C specification, which allows you to give a hint to use decimal arithmetic for a specified variable; if that is not possible, the hint is ignored without any warning or error message.
00:59:57 <Bike> wow that was supposed to be "ain't", what the hell did i type
01:00:51 <madbr> zzo38 : it's possible, it's just... hard to justify the development time
01:01:01 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/DNA_Sequencing_Cost_per_Genome_Over_Time.jpg lol
01:01:39 <Bike> i guess the dive is where they gave up on sanger
01:02:00 <zzo38> madbr: If a C compiler supports the syntax of Black-C attributes, even if it ignores all of them, then it will still work, just not as well as if it can understand some of them too.
01:03:07 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanger_sequencing the original method basically
01:06:11 <zzo38> But programs can also be written for other computer anyways, such as for Nintendo Family Computer; it is still done and I do it too. Therefore it can run on an actual hardware (or clone) or on an emulator. It is a much slower computer, but it works without worrying about SSE or about differences between computers
01:07:06 <oerjan> wtf is with that external links section
01:08:10 <zzo38> I have read that the reason Revelation says 666 is the number of beast is because it is Nero's name in Hebrew letters converted into their numerical values. I do not know if this is true or not, but what the number is meaning depend on context anyways. Mixing contexts of numbers that don't go together is called numerology, isn't it?
01:08:50 <madbr> irl most architectures are becoming more or less the same now
01:08:57 <madbr> due to out of order crazyness
01:09:17 <madbr> x86, mips, arm, power, various other riscs...
01:09:41 <madbr> if 68000 was still around it would end up in cpus that look like nowadays cpus too
01:10:06 <zzo38> Well, if I make the computer, it has no out of order execution or implicit caching or implicit pipeline stalls or other thing like that.
01:10:13 <Sgeo> Why does Chrome play MIDIs so differently from foobar2000?
01:10:22 <Sgeo> Not just midis
01:10:25 <madbr> sgeo : nothing plays midi the same
01:10:35 <kmc> zzo38: didn't it turn out to be 616? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_beast#616
01:10:44 <madbr> sgeoL if ogg is different then one of the programs has a post processing filter
01:10:47 <kmc> or there is some controversy anyway
01:10:56 <madbr> Sgeo : like a reverb or something like that
01:11:05 <madbr> or maybe automatic gain control
01:11:12 <oerjan> zzo38: nero is like a good guess given the time in history but there's not really any evidence whatsoever
01:12:40 <madbr> zzo38 : the reason why the 6502/65816 architecture and the z80 never made it to the "modern world" is that they can't make a rougly powerful architecture in that category of power
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01:13:00 <Bike> wtf is with that external links section <-- it happens on science articles
01:13:08 <madbr> whereas it was possible with the x86 (has 8 registers which is just enough) and the 68k
01:14:11 <Sgeo> I think Cube Slam is using some custom MIDI playing thingy
01:14:41 <madbr> essentially if you're doing a cacheless architecture, your performance is going to be similar no matter the architecture because everything is bottlenecked by the ram anyways
01:14:55 <madbr> (major problem on the 386 and such)
01:15:57 <madbr> If you're doing an out of order architecture everything is the same because everything gets remapped to micro-ops anyways
01:16:05 <madbr> and all your registers are renamed
01:16:14 <madbr> so x86, arm, power, mips etc become the same
01:16:40 <madbr> it's really in the "middle band" of cpus that you see a difference
01:17:07 <madbr> the Pentiums and in-order ARMs and MIPS kind of performance band
01:17:25 <pikhq> Note, some 386 systems had cache.
01:17:34 <pikhq> (external, on the motherboard, but still)
01:18:03 <madbr> pikhq : but not all of them :o
01:18:18 <madbr> 286 have that problem too
01:19:10 <madbr> that's why the 386 has some 7 cycle opcodes for really common stuff
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01:19:44 <madbr> you have to load in the opcode and the data from memory so it's not going to be bottlenecked by the 7 cycle execution anyways
01:20:33 <zzo38> kmc: I have read that it depends how the name is transliterated; I also see in some bibles that have a footnote saying that some manuscripts say 616 instead.
01:20:52 <kmc> maybe it's really 686
01:21:13 <kmc> the progenitor of all modern x86
01:21:19 <zzo38> madbr: I would also have microcodes reprogrammable at runtime, explicit caching, and BCD arithmetic, in my design.
01:21:39 <mcpherrin> One of my coworkers was telling me about when he worked on the IBM system 360
01:21:43 <kmc> "And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."
01:21:44 <pikhq> The first two are really tricky.
01:21:52 <pikhq> BCD arithmetic is a standard feature of x86.
01:21:52 <madbr> it's hard to make reprogrammable microcodes woth it
01:21:55 <mcpherrin> apparently the microcode for the 360 was basically on punchcards
01:22:04 <mcpherrin> and you could physically swap out parts of it for debug routines
01:22:15 <pikhq> mcpherrin: s/was/is/
01:22:48 <zzo38> mcpherrin: I like that. However, that doesn't allow it to be reprogrammed in software, so it isn't as good as my idea
01:22:51 <madbr> zzo38 : explicit caching appears from time to time
01:22:51 <mcpherrin> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IBM_360_20_TROS.jpg
01:23:04 <madbr> zzo38 : see: nintendo GBA
01:23:16 <Bike> i have a punchcard. good bookmark.
01:23:27 <pikhq> Technically z/System machines aren't *really* using punchcards, but rather "80 column records" and such, but...
01:23:30 <madbr> it has 32k of SRAM (fast single cycle 32 bits) and 256k of DRAM (slow 16 bits)
01:23:35 <Bike> there's a decent chance it's older than i am
01:23:40 <Bike> but i have GAINED ITS POWER
01:24:18 <kmc> the name = Intel brand chips, the mark = clones, the number = virtualized
01:24:32 <madbr> zzo38 : if you're going to have control of the whole system (ie a video game console) then explicit caching is usable
01:24:42 <zzo38> I wish to not overcomplicate it, for one thing. Explicit caching shall be done in microcode RAM, for one thing.
01:24:49 * pikhq hesitates to call that "explicit caching" though...
01:24:53 <zzo38> madbr: Yes, it is designed for a single-tasking system
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01:25:12 <madbr> zzo38 : it's not a function of single or multi tasking
01:25:14 <kmc> When John, he saw the numbers he lied / Made up the whole thing, he failed when he tried / To cash in on his cautious new fame / Always the numbers but never the name
01:25:25 <pikhq> The SRAM wasn't used as a cache for anything typically, just as "faster RAM".
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01:25:41 <madbr> it's a function of "on a console most of the workload is drawing graphics and mixing sound"
01:25:43 <zzo38> It is also designed for direct access to hardware in nearly all cases
01:26:02 <madbr> ie most of the cpu usage goes through only a few for(){} loops
01:26:05 <zzo38> Also drawing graphics and mixing sound can be done on a separate unit
01:26:07 <pikhq> Yep. Minimize latency at all costs.
01:26:34 <madbr> zzo38 : if that's the case then you could just as well use a mips :(
01:26:36 <zzo38> There is a separate microcode RAM (and therefore also a separate cache) for supervisor and user mode.
01:26:59 <madbr> supervisor is for multi tasking systems no?
01:27:13 <zzo38> A few functions (such as disk access) use the BIOS, which is what the supervisor mode is for.
01:27:13 <madbr> it doesn't really make sense unless you have a memory managing unit
01:28:04 <zzo38> It is for security function so that the BIOS can be overridden by the user with debugging routines and the program running in user mode won't be affected, resulting in maximum compatibility with hardware revisions and other things.
01:29:00 <zzo38> It also prevent the hard disk files from being mixed up too much
01:29:31 <zzo38> And ensure that a copy of a copy of a copy of a CD or DVD runs the same as the original
01:30:08 <Bike> FOUNDATIONAL MATHS QUESTION: has anyone defined the naturals as solutions to "f has period T -> f has period x*T" and gone from there
01:30:35 <zzo38> It also allows testing how well the program works in different hardware configurations, which the BIOS will emulate.
01:30:53 <zzo38> So it can be used both for development and for end-user.
01:31:05 <zzo38> And it allows it to work even if the hard disk physical interface changes.
01:31:21 <madbr> how will the redefinable microcodes work?
01:31:25 <zzo38> Those are many reasons why to have supervisor mode.
01:31:36 <zzo38> madbr: That I don't quite know yet, but probably some kind of VLIW
01:32:45 <madbr> is the goal to be able to use existing code?
01:32:52 <madbr> ie 6502 code, z80 code etc
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01:35:38 <zzo38> madbr: Well, 6502 is slow enough that probably it can be done, and that may be a use of such thing, but mainly the intention is that you can reprogram the microcode for whatever program you are writing and can even have self-modifying microcodes if that would help you.
01:36:47 <madbr> so essentially you'd come up with some mips-like opcode set for general C++ code
01:37:01 <madbr> and then some special opcodes for filling the screen and drawing graphics
01:37:05 <oerjan> Bike: i think that's basically a variant of naturals being the free monoid on a single generator
01:39:06 <madbr> probably something to read a whole bunch of memory addresses, and then write a whole bunch of memory addresses
01:39:15 <madbr> plus something to deal efficiently with transparency
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01:41:28 <madbr> sound boils down to "load from kinda randomish memory addresses, do something like 3 multiplies, add, load output buffer, add, store to output buffer, increment, repeat"
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01:55:09 <tertu> reprogrammable microcode?
01:55:15 <tertu> burroughs small systems?
01:56:57 <madbr> tertu : kinda wondering how you can make it efficient
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01:57:47 <madbr> I guess explicit pipelining would do it but then dealing with interrupts will probably be horrible
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01:59:27 <ter2> i don't know how feasible it would be except at very low clock speeds
01:59:57 <Bike> Is there any way in Linux to see how the physical RAM is laid out? Like, "two sticks of 4 GB" sorta thing.
02:00:38 <madbr> I'm not sure you could detect the separate sticks
02:00:58 <ter2> if you had microcode in sram that you could read every cycle
02:01:09 <ter2> from basically arbitrary positions
02:01:35 <madbr> ter2 : but then how do you deal with complex operations?
02:01:43 <zzo38> ter2: That was basically like my idea
02:02:02 <zzo38> madbr: Presumably using VLIW?
02:02:10 <ter2> the same way every microcode architecture does?
02:02:23 <ter2> you just replace the microcode rom/flash rom with ram
02:02:36 <ter2> i mean modern x86 chips have replaceable microcode
02:03:19 <ter2> perhaps you could implement another architecture, but chances are that would not be possible
02:03:29 <zzo38> No, it has both ROM and RAM microcode and you can switch which one you want. Also the microcode is open documented and 100% same per hardware revision/implementation.
02:03:46 <madbr> I guess you could have opcodes turn into different sets of hardware uops
02:03:48 <zzo38> ter2: It would make it slow anyways if it is possible, but sometimes that doesn't matter if it is slow
02:03:57 <madbr> but that makes sense for an out of order architecture only
02:04:22 <madbr> if its in order your uops are going to be more or less defined by your pipeline
02:06:51 <madbr> maybe implement some messy grid of multiplexers and register files and multipliers and ALUs
02:07:06 <madbr> and let the implementer figure out how he wants to connect things
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02:08:21 <zzo38> Another thing I would have is, no pipeline stalls; each instruction is defined precisely and any valid implementation has to follow exactly how many clock cycles something takes and everything else like that too, including the contents of ROM (which would be in public domain, but trademarked)
02:09:24 <madbr> okay but you're going to need some special way to spill out the whole pipeline if an interrupt happens
02:09:37 <zzo38> Yes, I certainly did think of that.
02:09:59 <madbr> probably something like freezing the whole cpu and emptying each pipeline one by one
02:10:14 <zzo38> Yes that was the idea I thought of at first
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02:12:35 <madbr> or banking every pipeline for supervisor mode... and then empting each one of them on context switch anyways
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02:15:04 <madbr> zzo38 : how are you going to do it?
02:16:23 <zzo38> I do not entirely know yet; for now mostly it is just the ideas. But I did think of some possible ways that some of it can be done
02:16:40 <HackEgo> endejxcoin um-32coin grascecoin p''coin gecrusicacoin deltseacoin harnarcoin befamcoin rmacoin liquecoin excelcoin slasscoin ratifcoin onozontoncoin miccoin dractracoin thersetcoin boolcoin dotcoin ookcoin
02:16:48 <zzo38> Mostly just the things already mentioned
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02:22:21 <kmc> madbr, ter2: have you seen http://inertiawar.com/microcode/
02:24:02 <madbr> same microcode format for p4 and core2? :o
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02:28:31 <zzo38> Why does the moden keep crashing?
02:28:45 <kmc> i do not know
02:29:27 <zzo38> Sometimes it just crashes and tries to restart but never reaches beyond the third step of starting up, unless I unplug and replug it.
02:31:53 <kmc> I used to have my cable modem plugged in through an X10 outlet thingy connected to an X10 Firecracker so that I could make a cron job power cycle it
02:32:30 <kmc> http://www.somethingawful.com/fakesa/10x/
02:33:08 <zzo38> I want to figure out how to put a watchdog timer on it
02:36:14 <zzo38> Ada/CS has a feature which C doesn't have and nor does others I have seen; you can use semicolons in the list of parameters to a function call to cause it to call the function multiple times with different values
02:36:38 <zzo38> Do you know if any other programming language has such a thing?
02:36:44 <kmc> I hope not
02:37:22 <kmc> copumpkin understands
02:37:48 <zzo38> The original reason for it was for the purpose of the Write procedure, but it can be used with any one.
02:37:53 <kmc> <Bike> Is there any way in Linux to see how the physical RAM is laid out? Like, "two sticks of 4 GB" sorta thing. <-- dmidecode
02:37:55 <zzo38> I think it is not so bad idea though.
02:38:59 <zzo38> If you want to call the same subroutine many times then it can help a lot
02:40:47 <elliott> it's basically mapM_, right?
02:40:53 <elliott> with a slightly funky syntax
02:41:55 <zzo38> I suppose it is like that, although not what I was thinking of
02:54:47 <Sgeo> Is learning raw WebGL at least a good way to learn how 3d stuff works in general, even if for practical purposes I would use an abstraction?
02:56:28 <madbr> why not openGL on regular C++?
02:56:48 <kmc> what about irregular C++
02:57:23 <Sgeo> Because I like Javascript better >.>
02:57:39 <Sgeo> Also by learning I mean reading
02:58:19 <Sgeo> I feel like Javascript should have been my dream environment, considering how much I've toyed with LSL despite it being worse than Javascript IMO, and liking the Smalltalk environment
02:58:38 <Sgeo> Javascript is ... ...pluginy, in a way that C isn't
02:59:23 <zzo38> Well, Synchronet door programs can be written in Javascript, so if you want to write Synchronet door programs then you can do that (although there wouldn't be any use of OpenGL with that)
02:59:42 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure gouging out your own eyes is preferable to C++. :P
02:59:50 <kmc> C++ is a hot mess
03:00:01 <pikhq> Though, so is Javascript.
03:00:08 <zzo38> Synchronet also allows server-side Javascript programs for webpages too though
03:00:24 <kmc> JS is just a mess :P
03:00:24 <Sgeo> It's a hot mess that's still better than event-system-but-no-closures-lsl
03:00:27 <madbr> true but 3d code doesn't involve too many of C++'s pitfalls
03:00:38 <madbr> since it's generally math-y
03:00:47 <elliott> I've never before seen javascript described as a hot mess.
03:00:53 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linden_Scripting_Language#Default_LSL_script
03:01:04 <pikhq> Yes, 3D code is where you are crazy if you write C++-that's-not-trivially-transformable-to-C.
03:01:05 <zzo38> I don't really dislike JavaScript much; it is better than PHP at least
03:01:15 <kmc> that's not really saying much
03:01:18 <Sgeo> How do you bring data across event handlers? GLOBAL VARIABLES!
03:01:56 <pikhq> Yeaaaah, Second Life is utterly incompetently designed.
03:02:11 <pikhq> zzo38: Few things are worse than PHP.
03:02:16 <Sgeo> And yet I love SL and wrote a bunch of code in it
03:02:22 <madbr> pikhq : true but it made it to market
03:02:36 <madbr> whereas the other presumably much better competitors haven't
03:02:37 <pikhq> Well yes. SL is terrible, but there's nothing else that really does what it does around.
03:03:01 <Sgeo> CloudParty (dead), MetaPlace (dead and not 3d)
03:03:10 <zzo38> I think Second Life client is license by GPL? Therefore, things wrong with the client program can be fixed at least
03:03:16 <Sgeo> ActiveWorlds (if you count external clients running things)
03:03:33 <madbr> pikhq : does it have anything to do aside from typesex?
03:03:36 <pikhq> zzo38: Yes, the SL client is GPL, and there are third-party SL servers.
03:03:59 <Sgeo> CloudParty dying took me by surprise
03:04:09 <zzo38> pikhq: Then you can also use other server if one of them is no good, too.
03:04:13 <Sgeo> I was there for the beginning and end of Metaplace, but not for Cloudparty
03:05:30 <zzo38> Therefore, the problem is a bit less bad than it would be if they make a mess of it and don't release the codes for someone to fix. (Not by all that much, but it is a bit. Also you can easily then see how is protocol working, and even write the entirely new one over the same protocol, if that will help.)
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03:47:05 <kmc> RIP Alexander Shulgin
03:49:06 -!- not^v has joined.
03:50:35 <ion> Drugs kill you, QED.
03:51:37 <zzo38> Being live for too long kill you, QED.
04:14:24 <Bike> oh, tikhal right
04:15:19 <Bike> sheeit, he was born in 25
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04:16:49 <Bike> haha, i looked him up in my library and they don't have the books but they do have a shitload of articles like "Possible Implication of Myristicin as a Psychotropic Substance"
04:18:29 <zzo38> My goal is to win, not to knock out your pokemon. Didn't you know that?
04:22:01 <madbr> what's your cpu architecture going to be geared towards?
04:22:19 <madbr> like, what's going to be your limiting factor that everything else is going to be designed from :D
04:32:46 <madbr> (without cache, probably memory access o_O)
04:34:06 <Bike> no memory, perfect for finite transduction
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04:37:04 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_state_transducer
04:38:05 <madbr> no it presumably has memory
04:38:26 <madbr> except something like 16k on chip but it's explicit
04:38:42 <madbr> ie it resides in some address range and if you want to use it you have to put stuff
04:41:01 <zzo38> Yes, you have to put stuff in there yourself if you want to use it
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04:46:15 <madbr> yeah in that case 16 bit opcodes might make sense
04:46:40 <madbr> (that's why super H had 16bit opcodes despite being a RISC... and why ARM had thumb mode)
04:55:15 <HackEgo> [U+2192 RIGHTWARDS ARROW]
05:09:12 * Sgeo thinks it's a bit ironic that a WebGL demo would feature the IE logo
05:25:16 <kmc> `addquote <zzo38> My goal is to win, not to knock out your pokemon. Didn't you know that?
05:25:18 <HackEgo> 1201) <zzo38> My goal is to win, not to knock out your pokemon. Didn't you know that?
05:25:27 <HackEgo> 1124) <shachaf> sometimes i think fizzie twiddling fungot's knobs behind the scenes <fungot> shachaf: because he is in the way of eventual development of ai on par with e.g. ( sqrt square double), and the
05:25:33 <HackEgo> 991) <olsner> metar lead to canada, more metar and cows
05:25:41 <HackEgo> 32) <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny <HackEgo> How hard is that
05:28:16 <Sgeo> Why do webgl demos consistently have the best graphics I've ever seen? Is it because I always play games that suck graphically?
05:28:30 <kmc> it's because you touch yourself at night
05:30:10 <mcpherrin> Sgeo: cause they're usually pretty simple, so they can use hella-big models and textures
05:30:38 <kmc> Bike: you can run a finite state transducer backwards
05:31:23 <Bike> finite state ductranser
05:31:39 <kmc> finite state cisducer
05:32:06 <kmc> fungot: we, alone on earth, have the power to free ourselves from the tyranny of the selfish replicators
05:32:06 <fungot> kmc: i mean, not walking... around... the a2 has a 1024x768 viewfinder but my a1 has some vga crap :p
05:33:32 <Bike> finite state (−)-(6aR,10aR)-6,6,9-Trimethyl-3-pentyl-6a,7,8,10a-tetrahydro-6H-benzo[c]chromen-1-ol
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05:34:48 <kmc> i wish i could talk to people i don't know in bars
05:35:10 <mcpherrin> kmc: I just realized a YOLO function should be an unsafe once fn
05:35:24 <ion> unsafeTalkToStranger
05:37:36 <kmc> mcpherrin: :D
05:37:57 <mcpherrin> kmc: my current rustc accepts YOLO as a synonym for unsafe
05:38:28 <kmc> did you submit an RFC
05:38:33 <kmc> request for coins
05:38:42 <kmc> HackEgo: …
05:38:48 <HackEgo> supercoin phabettercoin smithcoin yablcoin redgewallcoin dclynometramiroverseymounumerdiologcoin roncoin faucoin schocoin flariocoin huntcoin prevacoin datercoin yablingcoin fovecoin sbeecoin hancoin comensifcoin tkrcoin monommencoin
05:41:54 <madbr> sgeo : because webgl models only do one thing
05:42:17 <madbr> whereas a game does a lot of stuff and it has to work together
05:42:37 <madbr> also a lot of game elements are actually quite nice in isolation
05:43:00 <kmc> fungot: i want a god that stays dead, not plays dead
05:43:00 <fungot> kmc: do you prefer it, go for it"? why?. what's openfts? what's alatheia? equations? but you can construct
05:43:07 <madbr> but when you put the whole together the artificiality somehow shows
05:43:15 <madbr> maybe it's the wooden character animation
05:44:29 <kmc> focus follows fungus
05:45:19 -!- kmc has set topic: focus follows fungot | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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05:51:16 <kmc> HackEgo!!!
05:51:57 <kmc> i must eat ice cream
05:52:50 <kmc> the ice cream i bought yesterday has become soup but that is okay
05:53:19 <mcpherrin> kmc: http://mcpherrin.ca/tmp/yolo.patch.txt.html
05:54:41 <kmc> whoa what is this about putting 'reserved: in the middle of a static
05:55:16 <mcpherrin> stuff below that are reserved keywords
05:55:46 <mcpherrin> it's like (whatever)* 'reserved (whatever)* in the MBE
05:56:02 <kmc> i never metaprogram I didn't like
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06:01:22 <mcpherrin> https://gist.github.com/mcpherrinm/e833906f12a9471ae880
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06:09:37 <Sgeo> WebGL is officially a drug
06:09:38 <Sgeo> http://betanews.com/2013/05/23/internet-explorer-uses-its-ongoing-vine-series-to-tease-webgl-support/
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06:10:29 <kmc> Sgeo: explain
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06:10:59 <Sgeo> The "vine" depicts an older IE holding up a bag containing HTML5 and asking "HTML5? What's next, WebGL?"
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06:14:07 <Bike> haha wacky. musta been on the big drug to think of something so weird.
06:14:15 <kmc> the big drug
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06:16:30 <Bike> that's right, i'm talking about... marijuhwana
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06:18:51 <kmc> Bike: why doesn't your stupid state have any actual weed stores yet
06:20:11 <Bike> too busy arguing over how the booze stores work
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06:23:43 <HackEgo> lection2coin rientcoin reimaccoin intenecoin pomercoin fmgcoin selfgcoin golgenomagecoin jellcoin risincoin kayakatcoin flecoin ajjcoin mycecoin homecoin consuecoin encecoin soreenmadbillcoin tanemicoin kuhecoin
06:23:45 <Sgeo> So pretty https://www.shadertoy.com/view/lssGDX
06:24:26 <Bike> "Q: Can I incorporate marijuana sales into my existing business?"
06:30:07 <newsham> as a structural component?
06:31:25 <Bike> which seems like a weird rule to me, but such is #drugz
06:35:19 <fizzie> The metaball sub is the most popular product at Subway.
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06:36:10 <Sgeo> Why is my browser struggling with shadertoy?
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06:37:31 <kmc> fizzie: I believe it.
06:38:02 <mcpherrin> Sgeo: I think firefox hangs while it compiles the shaders
06:38:30 <Sgeo> I wish the gallery pages and any page except the page for a specific shader would just show a screensht
06:38:41 <Bike> http://liartownusa.tumblr.com/post/87674487235/signs
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07:28:07 <shachaf> kmc: "noöp" has science gone too far
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08:26:29 <impomatic> kmc: talking to strangers in bars is overrated. They just talk about sport, tv and other boring stuff...
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08:30:57 <mcpherrin> impomatic: depends what bars you go to :p
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08:43:11 <impomatic> mcpherrin: if you know a bar where strangers talk about coding stuff, please let me know :-)
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09:15:43 <Taneb> Aaaaaah why do I need to convert from base 55 to base 8
09:15:56 <mcpherrin> impomatic: well that depends on where you are I guess, but I have talked code with bar strangers plenty :p
09:16:53 <Taneb> lifthrasiir, I don't know
09:17:01 <Taneb> Looking at a past paper for an exam I have this evening
09:17:21 <Taneb> "Convert the following numbers into a signed 8 bit binary representation.: 021(base 55)"
09:18:07 <lifthrasiir> wow, searching for "base 55" gives something like this: https://github.com/zmallen/SecurityChallenges/blob/master/challenges/ISTS10/encode1/encodesub.py
09:19:44 <Taneb> I think it might be to make sure we understand the principle of converting between bases
09:22:27 <Taneb> Things about being at University of York: there is one black swan.
09:22:53 <Taneb> There are like 20 in the UK
09:23:05 <Taneb> There was two at the start of the year but one of them died
09:23:10 <Taneb> But the other has cygnets!
09:24:36 <Taneb> Well, I presume the cygnets are the children of both the black swans
09:24:46 <Taneb> Anyway, that's irrelevant to like everything
09:30:11 <shachaf> I,I http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/257334/teaching-children-to-convert-between-number-bases
09:32:28 <FireFly> HackEgo are you dead again
10:04:40 <impomatic> Taneb: there's a town in Devon (Dawlish) with 10-15 black swans. We visited last year.
10:05:49 <Taneb> Wikipedia says there's 9 breeding pairs in the UK
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10:36:22 * boily focuses on fungot, as it seems to be the Norm and the Topic told me so.
10:36:22 <fungot> boily: damn straight. one doesn't program in c...
10:36:45 <boily> fungot: one doesn't program in C. one becomes one with C.
10:36:58 <boily> fungot: it doesn't seem, but it do.
10:36:59 <fungot> boily: using scsh? or did you pay? :) ( but why do you ask
10:37:18 <boily> fungot: I didn't ask. you asked. but I should ask. should I?
10:37:18 <fungot> boily: that's really all of it?
10:37:30 <boily> fungot: that's all of it, and two toasts with nutella.
10:45:28 <boily> fizzie: did you change fungot's speech patterns recently?
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10:56:30 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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11:32:38 <fungot> Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual)
11:33:01 <fungot> FireFly: if you like.) by default. to be able to match a onespot variable if it happens to be deleted, as a whole, which cannot expand any further).
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12:08:14 <Melvar> It occurs to me that regarding zzo32’s question of lists in argument lists calling the function multiple times, that idris’ ! syntax could make this work, of a sort, in a context that allows multiple values …
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12:25:00 <Melvar> Well, I seem to have found a bug trying to make it work.
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13:52:22 * impomatic wonders if there's more pubs called the black swan than actual black swans
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14:31:31 <Quintopia> slereah_: you're an overgrown ape who can't climb very well.
14:32:18 <int-e> "The current global population is estimated to be up to 500,000 individuals."
14:33:13 <int-e> I guess the actual black swans win that one.
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14:34:00 <Quintopia> when you said "actual black swans" i read it as "actual impactful events that could not have been predicted in advance"
14:49:13 <impomatic> taneb said there's only about 20 black swans in the U.K.
14:50:30 <int-e> you didn't specify a scope for your question, so I assumed worldwide.
14:51:55 <int-e> which makes it an interesting question ... the estimates for the number of pubs worldwide differ by several orders of magnitude (partly because people do not agree on a single definition of the term "pub")
14:56:18 <impomatic> int-e: was continuing the discussion from several hours ago about black swans in the U.K.
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16:56:14 <kmc> `dis86 b303b06ecd80faebfe
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17:12:55 <kmc> whither HackEgo
17:13:56 <int-e> mov bl,0x3 / mov al,0x6e / int 0x80 / cli / jmp $
17:15:07 <kmc> which is (base64'd for spoilers) aW9wbCgzKTsgYXNtKCJjbGkiKTsgd2hpbGUgKDEpOwo=
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17:39:28 <oerjan> <Taneb> "Convert the following numbers into a signed 8 bit binary representation.: 021(base 55)" <-- oh come on two digits is trivial regardless of base. i can do that one in my head.
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17:40:54 <oerjan> (admittedly it helps to remember that 127 is 01111111)
17:46:39 <int-e> kmc: isn't a bit dangerous to assume that the upper 24 bits of eax are already zero?
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17:51:31 <kmc> I didn't write the code
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18:46:31 <shachaf> kmc: you should sell scp on rust hth
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19:17:17 <olsner> heh, "This call is necessary to allow 8514-compatible X servers to run under Linux."
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19:41:30 <kmc> http://jsfiddle.net/B85pH/ javascript is fucked up, volume 315
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19:56:00 <Bicyclidine> How do C local static variables and threading interact/
19:56:09 <Taneb> I went to the library this evening and took out a couple of books
19:57:05 <ais523> Bicyclidine: the static overrides the local
19:57:12 <ais523> so they're shared between all threads
19:57:29 <Taneb> One enigmatically entitled "Categories", and the other being the first volume of TAoCP
19:57:31 <Bicyclidine> by 'local' i mean like in a function scope.
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20:15:35 <kmc> Bicyclidine: pre-C11, the spec says nothing about concurrency, and I don't know what C11 says
20:15:49 <kmc> but in practice they are just like globals that can only be used in that function
20:15:53 <kmc> so they're shared by all threads
20:16:29 <kmc> void f() { static int x; ... } is much like int __x_for_f; void f() { ... }
20:17:07 <Bicyclidine> kind of puts a damper on all this DSP stuff i have
20:17:15 <kmc> a common pattern for (non-threadsafe) singletons in C++ is Foo* getFoo() { static Foo x; return &x; }
20:17:24 <ais523> there's a keyword __thread in C11 that makes them specific to each threa
20:17:25 <kmc> which I believe is spec'd as construct on first use
20:17:43 <Bicyclidine> well this code is supposed to be c89 i guess so lol
20:18:21 <Bicyclidine> "The __thread storage class marks a static variable as having thread-local storage duration. This means that, in a multi-threaded application, a unique instance of the variable is created for each thread that uses it, and destroyed when the thread terminates. " oh, that's nice and straightforward.
20:18:52 <kmc> I believe thread-local storage is usually a bit slower to access
20:18:54 <kmc> but not terribly
20:20:04 <kmc> you can look up the TLS ABI for Linux/glibc by Ulrich Drepper if you want your eyes to melt and fall out
20:20:31 <kmc> heh the second google hit for ulrich drepper is https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=10134
20:20:54 <kmc> i'm confused that this was resolved FIXED rather than WONTFIX or WORKSFORME
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21:44:58 <Bicyclidine> *** glibc detected *** /us/rlocal/MATLAB[...]: malloc(): smallbin double linked list corrupted
21:46:39 <int-e> depends on the language
21:47:10 <int-e> haskell, for example, has a great FFI as long as you stay away from libgmp
21:53:28 <kmc> most FFIs I've used are pretty pleasant, relative to the inherent pain of C anyway
21:53:36 <kmc> which is mainly Haskell's, Rust's, and Python ctypes
21:54:12 <Bicyclidine> i know, it's just that when i fuck up i get errors i'd never have seen in either C or the other languae
21:54:22 <kmc> oh, I used JNI a bit, which is pretty un-pleasant
21:54:29 <kmc> I guess I blocked out those memories
21:54:37 <kmc> I want a higher level Haskell↔Rust FFI which can marshal algebraic data and integrates memory management and such
21:54:46 <Bicyclidine> like i guess i wrote over malloc overhead??
21:54:56 <kmc> Bicyclidine: seems like
21:54:59 <kmc> Bicyclidine: now write an exploit
21:55:15 <Bicyclidine> haha it's matlab, it's one giant attack surface
21:55:30 <ais523> I managed to get matlab to dump Java stack traces to its console, once
21:55:46 <ais523> also confused it to the point it thought minus infinity was greater than 0 (it segfaulted soon after), purely trying to use it in normal operation
21:56:00 <Bicyclidine> oh, this time i got an abort signal and a crash, rather than having to kill the process
21:56:02 <kmc> you could send unique-boxed Rust objects to Haskell as ForeignPtrs
21:56:21 <kmc> and you could have refcounted Rust objects where some refs are held by the GHC heap
21:56:50 <Bicyclidine> this time it was a bad free... what the hell am i doing
21:56:54 <kmc> and you could lend Haskell objects to Rust if you have a way to root them in the GHC GC
21:57:01 <kmc> kind of like how we lend JS objects to Rust in Servo
21:57:29 <kmc> a rewrite of the GHC RTS in Rust would also be pretty neat, though a ton of work
21:57:50 <kmc> as I recall SPJ spoke favorably of that idea
21:58:01 <ion> Heh, that would be interesting.
21:58:09 <kmc> most of Rust's RTS is written in Rust :)
21:58:17 <kmc> but Rust doesn't have much RTS, and it's mostly optional
21:58:52 <Taneb> What is GHC's RTS written in?
21:59:11 <kmc> C and assembly
21:59:23 <kmc> it's about 50 kLOC iirc
21:59:31 <Taneb> Hmm, I happen to know some people intending on writing a Haskell compiler
21:59:50 <kmc> Taneb: feel free to put them in contact with me
21:59:58 <kmc> since I know and like Rust and I know a fair bit about the things a Haskell RTS has to do
22:00:26 <ion> taneb: What’s their motivation for another Haskell compiler?
22:00:33 <kmc> is it named YAHC
22:00:39 <ion> taneb: Fair enough :-)
22:00:45 <Taneb> Also sadness at the fact that YHC is really unmaintained
22:00:48 <kmc> I started writing a Haskell compiler named THC
22:01:15 <ion> Does THC stand for THC Haskell Compiler?
22:01:27 <Taneb> As it is a new Haskell compiler written in the University of York, it is of course called the New York Haskell Compiler
22:02:42 <Taneb> "Someone recently asked on the Yhc mailing list if Yhc was dead. The answer is yes, noone has been working on the compiler for several years."
22:03:12 <Taneb> "The biggest challenge for Yhc was the build system - we ended up with 10,000 lines of Python Scons scripts."
22:03:35 <Taneb> So you understand why we want to start again
22:03:42 <Bicyclidine> How do I figure out where gcc is getting includes from, again
22:03:50 <ais523> now I wonder how aimake would react to it
22:04:21 <Taneb> ais523, here's the webpage: http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/darcs/yhc/web/
22:04:28 <ais523> Bicyclidine: my method was to compile a test program that includes iso646.h, limits.h, sys/types.h, setjmp.h, and zlib.h
22:04:42 <Taneb> Feel free to put the two in your program accelerator
22:05:12 <ais523> Bicyclidine: I wrote two screenfuls of comments on why those five files specifically
22:08:39 <FireFly> Taneb: good name for a compiler
22:08:51 <Taneb> FireFly, I think it was my suggestion
22:09:20 <Taneb> Either me or one other person it could have been
22:15:16 <kmc> nice https://github.com/asciimoo/drawille
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22:15:50 <Taneb> IF ONLY TELNET WERE A DECENT PROTOCOL
22:15:57 * Taneb breaks down into mostly irrelevant tears
22:16:22 <Taneb> I thought zzo was more of a gopher chap?
22:16:42 <Bicyclidine> anyway did you get anything good at the library
22:16:57 <Taneb> Not as far as I am aware
22:18:11 <Taneb> OK, telnet is not as bad as I thought
22:21:15 <Bicyclidine> man i don't know what the hell i'm doing to matlab, this is almost funny
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22:41:34 <kmc> Bicyclidine: what are you FFIing?
22:42:02 <Bicyclidine> well i fixed the error through some method that indicates i don't understand this program. is there any good way to declare a function declared in a header __attribute__((noreturn)) or should i do something else
22:42:26 <kmc> ion: it was TriBeCa Haskell Compiler
22:42:43 <Bicyclidine> at the moment, i'm calling a middle ear simulator written in C, from matlab.
22:43:55 <kmc> Bicyclidine: what do you mean? you can put __attribute__((noreturn)) on the decl in a header
22:44:29 <kmc> hm, I'm not sure how gcc feels about re-declaring functions
22:44:40 <Bicyclidine> the only warnings i'm getting are about a variable being uninitialized; i have code like if (species is out of range) mex_error_Thing() else if (species == ...) initialize else if (species == ...) initialize
22:45:06 <Bicyclidine> i don't know the best way to fix this. i'm guessing gcc doesn't know that mex_error_thing aborts but i don't technically know that
22:45:35 <kmc> #define mex_error_Thing lol_screw_u #include "mex.h" #undef mex_error_Thing __attribute__((noreturn)) void mex_error_Thing(...)
22:46:13 <kmc> that is kind of the worst thing ever
22:46:15 <kmc> but I'm proud of it
22:46:28 <kmc> just redeclaring might also work.
22:46:30 <Bicyclidine> actually, first i'll just redo the declaration to see what gcc does
22:46:39 <Bicyclidine> THEN i'll betray god with this code of yours.
22:46:44 <kmc> or you know, edit the header.
22:46:49 <kmc> or copy-paste the header into your file and then edit it
22:47:03 <Bicyclidine> anyway is there some other way to do what i'm doing? I don't know if it's best practice or whatever.
22:47:10 <kmc> or use some pragma nonsense to disable the warning
22:47:31 <kmc> you could write your own ((noreturn)) wrapper which calls mex_error_Thing(); exit(1); or so
22:47:38 <kmc> or even while(1) mex_error_Thing();
22:48:08 <Bicyclidine> mex error thing returns to matlab, which is why i'm a bit worried about declaring mex noreturn. i think the C might live in the same process as matlab? i kind of don't want to know honestly
22:48:10 <kmc> or a dummy initialization?
22:48:19 <kmc> it probably does
22:48:25 <kmc> so I wonder how it manages that
22:48:31 <kmc> possibly setjmp / longjmp
22:48:50 <Bicyclidine> i was gonna do a dummy but then i'm worried that if i change things around later i might actually leave them with the dummy values, which would be annoying to debug
22:48:51 <kmc> a function which calls longjmp is a valid use case for noreturn, aiui
22:49:04 <kmc> initialize to dummy and then assert that they aren't dummy before you use them?
22:49:19 <Bicyclidine> they're all doubles, so i guess i can make them nans
22:50:02 <Bicyclidine> of course, there are eighteen of these, so it's gonna be annoying any way i do it haaaaa
22:50:11 <kmc> macro time!
22:50:31 <Bicyclidine> heh. yeah, it's doing matrix multiplication, so that would work fine probably.
22:50:51 <Bicyclidine> well, something resembling matrix multiplication at least
22:51:24 <kmc> you seem to know what you're doing a lot better than most scientists who code
22:52:00 <Bicyclidine> this code also has a couple casts from doubles to ints, so like, lol.
22:52:11 <Bicyclidine> i think even matlab doesn't actually want you to do that
22:54:10 <kmc> well, (int) 3.0 will do a conversion in C
22:54:13 <kmc> not a reinterpret
22:54:16 <kmc> fuck C, by the way
22:54:26 <kmc> like, it will give you the int 3
22:54:32 <kmc> never mind that it's represented by completely different bits
22:54:34 <kmc> C casts do like 3 unrelated thing
22:54:35 <Bicyclidine> Don't worry though. THe doubles are actually ints to begin with.
22:54:38 <kmc> which is really annoying to everyone
22:54:55 <kmc> because people show up asking "how do I do casts in language X" and you have to figure out what the hell they actually mean
22:55:03 <Bicyclidine> god, i know exactly what you're talking about
22:55:10 <Bicyclidine> "how do i convert a string to an int" i have bad news
22:55:11 <mcpherrin> kmc: eugh double - int casts in C make me sad
22:55:20 <kmc> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/FAQ#Does_Haskell_have_type_casts.3F
22:55:25 <mcpherrin> though I suppose they do what you want most of the time
22:56:09 <Bicyclidine> anyway as far as i see the code does something like this: matlab puts an int somewhere. matlab calls my C. the C retrieves the value using mxGetPr, which returns a double*. then i (int)that[0]. so it's never actually a double.
22:56:32 <Bicyclidine> there's an mxGetData that returns a void* that you're supposed to use so i'll use that once i get anything working
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23:01:37 <Bicyclidine> wowwwww matlab uses a custom linker script for ld
23:02:52 <boily> blitter64: hi! who are you?
23:03:01 <Bicyclidine> this is the first time i've seen a ld script in the wild
23:03:40 <kmc> Bicyclidine: since gender is constructed we can't apply the law of the excluded middle!
23:03:41 <Bicyclidine> "This is the symbol export map file for glibc Linux MEX-files with Fortran gateways" god help me
23:04:18 <Bicyclidine> principle of explosion sounds p. good in a gender context
23:05:50 <boily> blitter64: I vaguely recall having seen a chaiomanot somewhere. maybe.
23:05:53 <Bicyclidine> Does Rust's linker have scripts and weird bullshit like that
23:05:57 <boily> Bicyclidine: exploding genders???
23:06:17 <Bicyclidine> also matlab uses this for some reason http://www.hwaci.com/sw/mkhdr/
23:08:00 <Bicyclidine> oh cool i don't actually have write access to this header anyway! yay having a boss who knows how to computer
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00:27:56 * boily is a little bit overwhelmed by all those minecraft mods. just a little bit. in fact, I'm completely terrified.
00:28:53 * olsner just finished baking in the middle of the night
00:29:22 <boily> midnight baking. that's one activity I never tried yet.
00:29:32 <boily> (midnight coffee and other fluids, tho...)
00:29:32 <olsner> the book said "about 2h", but I think it took more like 5
00:29:44 <boily> what were you cooking?
00:30:00 <olsner> granted, the last hour and half was more watching a movie waiting for things to cool down
00:30:23 <olsner> and at least 1h of dough raising time
00:31:02 <boily> sounds like something bready.
00:32:13 <olsner> basically http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon_roll but I did them different shapes and only half the batch with cinnamon
00:32:40 <olsner> the other half with almond paste
00:35:15 <olsner> (something ostensibly like http://lillafavoriten.com/wp-content/uploads/bild-32.jpg, but not even nearly as pretty)
00:38:23 <boily> weird. very weird. that may be the first picture I ever saw that progressively loaded to the left.
00:39:04 <boily> olsner: something about Fettisdag, and that special royal pastry.
00:40:10 <olsner> it's probably loading progressively from the top, but also includes jfif tags saying it's rotated
00:40:30 <olsner> that can also give you progressive loading from the bottom
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00:41:33 <olsner> boily: nah, just ordinary swedish fika ... my turn to bake for tomorrow
00:43:19 <olsner> fettisdagen is before lent, whenever that is
00:44:16 <olsner> eh, anyway, good night
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01:10:00 <kmc> @tell boily needs more chicken
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01:33:51 <Sgeo> What's with .json extensions? They say nothing about the meaning of the thing, just the format?
01:35:01 <kmc> isn't that true in some sense for most file extensions
01:37:05 <kmc> what about it
01:37:28 <Sgeo> I know I've seen .xml, I may have been hallucinating .json
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01:37:37 <scp> <info about content>.<info about format>
01:37:37 <kmc> i have seen .json
01:37:51 <kmc> XML files may or may not describe their own meaning internally
01:43:05 <kmc> in C++ a method's local variables can have automatic or static storage, but I wonder if there are other langugaes where you can also do object storage
01:43:17 <kmc> i.e. the variable implicitly becomes a bit of member data, which is only visible within that method
01:43:33 <kmc> this isn't really possible in C++, where you need to know an object's layout without seeing the implementations of all its methods
01:44:17 <kmc> it would seem fairly useful, though
01:44:54 <Bike> possibly good for concurrency
01:45:12 <scp> What makes this different than member variables of the object?
01:45:19 <scp> other than scoping
01:45:26 <Bike> the implicitness
01:45:45 <Bike> the idea is you have a method that has some local variables, and they're made into fields of the object rather than locals of the function
01:46:35 <scp> So it's a purely syntactic distinction
01:47:39 <kmc> scp: scoping is the whole point
01:47:48 <kmc> what makes a static local different from a file-level static or a global?
01:48:06 <kmc> (the answer is time of initialization, but i'm ignoring that for the moment)
01:48:38 <kmc> (these would be initialized on first call, like static locals, because you can't name them in the constructor or initializer list)
01:48:42 <scp> well that varies by language too. But yes, the fundamental difference is that two functions can have different 'static int foo's
01:48:47 <kmc> (but I don't remember if that's guaranteed threadsafe)
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01:53:03 <kmc> ISTR g++ has a global lock for all non-POD local static initializers, which is not great
01:53:16 <kmc> also I am very bad at pinball, even when sober
01:53:59 <scp> kmc: That is what the generated code suggests. Or what it did last time I looked at this, maybe a year ago.
01:54:03 <Bike> is being good at pinball even possible
01:54:17 <kmc> Bike: the machines showed much higher high scores than I could attain, but maybe they were hacked.
01:54:32 <kmc> I did get a top 10 score on Asteroids and Tempest, though, which I found weird
01:54:35 <kmc> maybe they reset them frequently
01:54:45 <Bike> asteroids like, spaceship, shooting?
01:54:48 <kmc> I know I've said this before but original vector Asteroids is amazingly beautiful
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01:56:23 <kmc> although I noticed the lines are not perfectly smooth because the DAC has only a 10 bit resolution
01:56:33 <kmc> I wonder if you could fix that with a switchable low-pass filter
02:04:30 <mcpherrin> kmc: vector displays are too pretty
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02:27:31 <Sgeo> So, the reason the docs on x3dom.runtime were empty is because they killed x3dom.runtime
02:31:33 <Sgeo> No they didn't
02:31:53 <Bike> rip in one piece
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02:40:14 <Sgeo> Web pages can independently open view-source: urls now?
02:40:20 <Sgeo> And they don't even say view-source: in the URL bar?
02:40:25 <Sgeo> What is this world coming to?
02:41:05 <Bike> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7BnMnr-KSY this should explain
02:41:14 <Bike> What the world is coming to
02:49:08 <Sgeo> :/ the only reason I realized I left this 'CORS EVERYTHING' extension enabled is because something that relied on CORS broke
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02:49:26 <Sgeo> "The 'Access-Control-Allow-Origin' header contains multiple values 'http://threejs.org, *', but only one is allowed. Origin 'http://threejs.org' is therefore not allowed access. "
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04:20:41 <kmc> hello party people
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04:24:46 <oerjan> <Bicyclidine> at the moment, i'm calling a middle ear simulator written in C, from matlab. <-- well you cannot expect labyrinthic code to be bug free hth
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04:25:21 * kmc looks some things up
04:25:22 <kmc> oh, I get it.
04:25:54 <kmc> oerjan: i was kind of hung over today
04:25:59 <Bike> MIDDLE ear, FUCKER
04:26:22 <Bike> btw the problem was just a buffer overflow
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04:26:28 <Bike> is it like normal for those to fuck up malloc data
04:26:44 <kmc> brazilian coworkers and their caipirinhas
04:26:53 <kmc> Bike: if it's a heap allocated buffer, yes
04:27:00 <kmc> malloc metadata is typically stored right next to allocated blocks
04:27:03 <Bike> darn, and here i was thinking i was interesting
04:27:09 <kmc> this is one of the main ways of exploiting heap overflows
04:27:35 <kmc> if the allocator does something like "foo->prev->next = foo->next" and you control those fields, then you have a write-what-where primitive
04:28:01 <kmc> Bike: you should play http://io.smashthestack.org/
04:28:09 <kmc> this is clearly highly relevant to your work in computational biology
04:29:35 <oerjan> Bike: i guess my pun should have been more anvilicious :(
04:30:52 <kmc> mostly i just felt shitty due to only sleeping 4 or 5 hours last night
04:30:54 <Bike> that would probably have made it more clear
04:30:57 <kmc> and i have no fucking idea why that was
04:31:03 <kmc> alcohol may have been a factor
04:33:18 <kmc> fungot: what is your favorite alcohol
04:33:18 <fungot> kmc: 2. compile the externally-called files. ( the resulting combination. ( `next from' is likely to get two versions of some other intercal compilers; types are calculated at compile time, at least to the c temporary files to object files and include files, and this is a more portable way to pop the top of the resulting value being discarded.
04:47:17 <Sgeo> I want a browser that's not afraid to break compatibility with the web
04:47:39 <Sgeo> Something that webmasters can strive to meet compatibility with, but is more secure for users of that browser
04:47:53 <Sgeo> No cross-domain cookied GETs and POSTs
04:48:15 <Sgeo> Hmm, that could make the site less secure for other browsers, if those assumptions are relied upon
05:02:11 <Sgeo> var split = true;
05:02:22 <Sgeo> https://github.com/schteppe/cannon.js/blob/master/examples/threejs_fps.html#L185
05:03:22 <kmc> i want a god that stays dead, not plays dead
05:03:31 <kmc> Sgeo: we have various ideas about this kind of thing
05:03:34 <kmc> mostly for perf not security
05:03:47 <kmc> e.g. "asm.css" where you opt in to a faster layout algorithm that disables certain corner cases
05:04:14 <kmc> and new APIs like getBoundingClientRectAsync()
05:04:57 <Sgeo> That reminds me, is NodeJS likely to start using generators when they're available?
05:05:04 <Sgeo> And make them well-integrated in the stdlib?
05:05:09 <Sgeo> That would make me actually look at it
05:06:10 <kmc> Sgeo: did you see http://jsfiddle.net/B85pH/2/
05:07:04 <Sgeo> That... can't be part of the JS standard?
05:07:09 <kmc> I believe it is, now
05:07:25 <kmc> it would be pretty bad if your implementation had to account for the possibility that *any* function call could change the caller's scope
05:07:32 <kmc> so wrt this particular power, `eval` is special syntax
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05:08:30 <Sgeo> huh, thought it was a security thing. Make it blatanly obvious when eval is being used
05:08:41 <kmc> that's a nice side benefit I guess
05:09:24 <Sgeo> Do setInterval and family also have this power, or just eval?
05:09:50 <elliott> um, imagine what it would be like if setInterval *did*
05:10:03 <kmc> http://media.bestofmicro.com/silent-pc-passive-cooling,8-C-367068-22.jpg
05:10:36 <Sgeo> Was going to try it, then realized that.... wait, hmm, maybe it could... no... can't pass both a string and closure in, can I?
05:11:33 <Bike> this is why eval with explicit environments is the superior eval
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05:12:03 <elliott> Sgeo: I dearly hope not even JS has a way to say "change the variable x in my scope in some random amount of time not less than some constant".
05:12:47 <Sgeo> I wonder if Rebol has...
05:13:02 <Bike> matlab does, probably
05:13:38 <Bike> today i found out there's an undocumentedmatlab dot com, disproving the existence of god
05:14:55 <Sgeo> Doesn't really count: var foo = [0];
05:14:55 <Sgeo> setTimeout(function(){foo[0] = 1;}, 5);
05:14:55 <Sgeo> setTimeout(function(){show(foo[0]);}, 10);
05:15:56 <Sgeo> Now, give me yield...
05:16:09 <Bike> wait, can't you just do it with los clojures
05:16:58 <Sgeo> I just tried it by assigning to foo directly instead of modifying array if that's what you mean. Worked.
05:19:30 <Bike> oh yeah there's that java 'randomly change all ints in the vm at random intervals' thing too
05:19:57 <fowl> nondeterminism ftw
05:20:47 <Sgeo> true become: false
05:21:03 <coppro> elliott: that sounds like a good feature for intercal
05:21:17 <Bike> it's for security testing, ovviously
05:21:41 <Sgeo> true become: false. makes things go blank on Pharo 3.0. false become: true causes things to freeze
05:21:46 <Bike> Hardened Intercal
05:21:51 <elliott> I guess the problem here is just "race conditions exist".
05:22:12 <Sgeo> It would suck if messing around with this actually did something screwy outside the Smalltalk VM
05:24:54 <Bike> i bet everything will go fine if you switch true and false both at once
05:25:13 <Bike> why would they have different consequences then
05:25:40 <Bike> "i was just talking about races, bike" yeah well you wouldn't help me think of a good name
05:26:22 <Sgeo> elliott: it does, although I didn't think it did
05:26:42 <Bike> elliott confirmed for jerk with dumb face
05:29:10 <Bike> https://24.media.tumblr.com/f7ad90b05a4a5ff18783b09ed2de9d45/tumblr_n6kcs32i921rk8yano1_500.png
05:31:31 <Sgeo> That looks like a BYOND game.. graphics for the dialogue are better though
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09:03:06 <oerjan> eek girl genius site redesign
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10:20:25 <int-e> pong. (I saw earlier that lambdabot joined #nicta-course, so it didn't seem urgent to reply) ... for how long is this course taking place? I can add the channel to lambdabot's configuration so it will rejoin by itself when restarted.
10:20:38 <int-e> missing privmsg. whatever.
10:22:40 <ais523> no, that was a privmsg
10:22:45 <ais523> just a channel privmsg
10:24:38 <coppro> impomatic: you should read more irc spec
10:25:58 <int-e> ais523: you are correct as usual, but you probably know what I intended to say.
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10:26:34 <ais523> ordinary messages sent to channels are privmsgs, technically speaking
10:26:41 <ais523> int-e's notice is not a privmsg, but it's one of the few things that isn't
10:26:46 * ais523 notes that this is a privmsg too
10:27:06 <int-e> the IRC spec won't save you this time, read the CTCP one
10:27:23 <coppro> int-e: yes it will, PRIVMSG and NOTICE are defined in the IRC spec
10:27:27 <boily> test. test. un deux un deux check.
10:27:56 <int-e> coppro: but then you will never see any emotes
10:28:15 <coppro> a message to a service
10:28:17 <int-e> just unmotivated \001 thingies
10:28:34 <ais523> anyway, according to the spec, bots are supposed to talk only in notices
10:28:50 <ais523> but that's generally ignored because mIRC's interpretation of the spec tends to outweigh the actual spec
10:28:57 <ais523> at least in terms of users getting annoyed at you
10:29:13 <ais523> (mIRC treats all notices as pingworthy by default, for whatever reason)
10:29:28 <ais523> perhaps the IRC commands should just have had better names
10:29:50 <int-e> (why would anybody POP UP a message box for a message that by specification is deemed less important than a privmsg?)
10:30:00 <int-e> now if NOTICE were named REPLY ...
10:30:10 <int-e> (following ais523' thought)
10:30:52 <coppro> ais523: yeah, the mIRC thing pisses me off
10:30:56 <int-e> I wanted a privmsg targeted at a particular nickname, not a whole channel.
10:30:57 <coppro> especially with regards to color codes
10:31:23 <coppro> I wish a server operator had had the spine to say "no, fuck your stupid spec, I'm filtering out your color codes until you fix them"
10:31:31 <lambdabot> kmc said 9h 21m 30s ago: needs more chicken
10:31:43 <int-e> coppro: /set hide_colors on keeps me calm and happy
10:31:50 <ais523> int-e: that was my solution too
10:32:03 <ais523> although the way you do that's different in Konversation
10:32:11 <ais523> coppro: actually, the best response
10:32:20 <ais523> where whenever anyone uses a mIRC color code
10:32:23 <ais523> it replies with a notice
10:32:28 <boily> @tell kmc I couldn't chicken yesterday, I was minecraftedly disturbed.
10:32:52 <coppro> int-e: that doesn't solve the problem
10:33:10 <coppro> the problem is that mIRC has a fundamentally broken spec, and everyone else follows along because mIRC has an insane and stupid amount of momentum
10:34:03 <coppro> regardless of any individual user's preference to colors, the implementation is flawed, and implementations should insist on one that works (like the one in the CTCP spec)
10:34:29 <int-e> coppro: where did I write that it solved the problem? "calm and happy", ignorance is bliss. :P
10:34:52 <coppro> it also doesn't solve the other big problem, which is that people use mIRC
10:36:27 <int-e> Sorry, I just can't seem to get worked up on *this* minor problem (unlike many others).
10:38:50 <coppro> int-e: IRC is an extremely heterogenous spec. It is frustrating that there is no standard.
10:39:05 <coppro> There is the RFC, which has bad design but that no one has actually stepped up and shot
10:39:41 <coppro> it has an increasing variety of server-specific controls, as the proliferation of IRCds get their own modes (sometimes really bizarre ones) and services become more integrated with them
10:40:05 <coppro> the increasing trend towards centrally adminsitered networks also leads to more of this
10:40:27 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: They are ambiguous
10:40:40 <coppro> There are string/colour combinations which cannot be expressed
10:44:44 <boily> Ceci n'est pas un code de couleur
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10:55:42 <Jafet> xmpp would probably be much better but irc has an insane and stupid amount of momentum
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11:06:18 <coppro> xmpp is a basis for a protocol I thought, rather than an actual protocol?
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14:02:16 <FireFly> coppro: re. colour codes/unrepresentable strings, do you have any example?
14:03:19 <FireFly> AFAIK ^C04 is legal for switching to red, and can't be confused with anything else
14:03:54 <FireFly> The single-digit variants are problematic though
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14:44:16 <FreeFull> FireFly: What if you want ,10 in red?
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15:03:52 <coppro> FireFly: ^C is CTCP, the %C spec is mirc
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15:11:12 <myname> http://dcoj.wmh3.com/cscos/h/ this is going to be the next big thing!
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15:35:02 <kmc> using the address of a static object to identify a resource is pretty handy
15:35:16 <kmc> because then the linker takes care of assigning unique IDs, even if you have dynamically loaded plugins and what-not
15:45:20 <kmc> doing dlopen()-style plugins in Rust is really easy
15:45:27 <kmc> there's no particular reason it wouldn't be, but still, I was pleased
15:45:33 <kmc> there's no typechecking, though :/
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17:42:14 <FireFly> FreeFull: hm oh, good point
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18:02:32 <coppro> FireFly: ^A is used to introduce a CTCP command. But CTCP specifies other control codes, like ^C for colours and a few other formatting characters
18:06:30 <coppro> they just aren't widely implemented because mIRC
18:06:57 <coppro> and that's basically because Khaled went "here's how I do it" and presented a poorly formatted spec, and then resisted all efforts to fix it to something sane or get him to use the spec everyone else was using
18:07:05 <coppro> no other irc client dev is as stubborn, so he won
18:09:41 <Bicyclidine> esoteric computation medium: pulleys http://vimeo.com/93042377
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18:26:20 <shachaf> I think we've already had that one.
18:26:29 <shachaf> Not that HackEgo was up back then.
18:27:48 <oerjan> Gregor: quick, you can make Bicyclidine be wrong if you hurry!
18:28:52 <oerjan> shachaf: hey it might work.
18:39:09 <Melvar> < int-e> coppro: /set hide_colors on keeps me calm and happy – Aww, but then you can’t see when idris-bot is showing the unit value vs. the unit type.
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18:45:51 <idris-bot> When elaborating an application of function Control.Category..:
18:45:51 <idris-bot> Can't disambiguate name: Prelude.Basics.., Control.Category..
18:46:39 <oerjan> ( with Basics ((.).(.))
18:46:39 <idris-bot> (input):0:0:Incomplete term (.) . (.)
18:53:05 <Melvar> ( the (HVect [Type, (Type, Type), (Type, ()), ((), Type), ((),())]) [((),()),((),()),((),()),((),()),((),())]
18:53:05 <idris-bot> [((), ()), ((), ()), ((), ()), ((), ()), ((), ())] : HVect [Type, (Type, Type), (Type, ()), ((), Type), ((), ())]
18:58:03 <idris-bot> Prelude.Basics.the : (a : Type) -> a -> a
18:58:09 <idris-bot> Manually assign a type to an expression.
18:58:09 <idris-bot> x : a -- the element to get the type
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19:27:18 <kmc> http://pastebin.com/uFF9LsFg spot the backdoor
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20:14:07 <ion> kmc: Please explain.
20:14:50 <Bicyclidine> it has to do with C deals with arrays in function parameters
20:17:20 <kmc> spoiler: http://codepad.org/bDAlhNYy
20:17:57 <kmc> so it uses a (probably) 64-bit key, which is enough to seem secure, but not actually secure
20:18:21 <kmc> it's enough to be secure against casual attackers, even, but not against the NSA
20:18:35 <ion> So where was this code spotted?
20:18:52 <kmc> don't know
20:19:02 <kmc> i got it from someone on IRC who got it from someone on Twitter
20:19:46 <mcpherrin> It was supposedly somebodys own code
20:20:00 <mcpherrin> not a deliberate backdoor, just a dumb error
20:20:09 <Bicyclidine> yeah, they said they accidentally backdoored their own code
20:20:12 <mcpherrin> (presumably: if it was a backdoor you wouldn't tweet about it)
20:20:27 <Bicyclidine> https://twitter.com/aris_ada this individual
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20:58:41 <kmc> http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2014/06/alice_bliss_robo_take_our_drug_or_programming_language_quiz.html
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00:05:15 <boily> holy fungot of incredible textures.
00:05:15 <fungot> boily: there are two forms of each item, the ears close a group, and can extract it anywhere). if you happen to check newer programs for compatibility with older compilers.
00:05:48 <boily> fungot: only two? you lack imagination and mods. the Crack Pack is... it's... wooooah...
00:05:48 <fungot> boily: 5.2 line labels, an array element is the number of elements that that syntax corresponds to a set bit in :2 or not ( by specifying a line label, any `come from's or `next from's aiming at a command or file which has no effect, simply run `come from' aiming at a labeled statement, although to protect new intercal users c-intercal will look for `come from' behaviour, the expansion libraries
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00:15:51 <kmc> boily: what have you textured
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00:32:36 <HackEgo> U+0AD0 GUJARATI OM \ UTF-8: e0 ab 90 UTF-16BE: 0ad0 Decimal: ૐ \ ૐ \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
00:40:02 <Bike> http://arxiv.org/abs/1403.7686 quantum neat thing possibly
00:47:34 <boily> kmc: I slightly tried the Crack Pack. haven't discovered its full potential yet. I was mainly overwhelmed by the Biomes o' Plenty.
00:47:59 <boily> but I'm going to go to sleep first. my brains don't work correctly tonight.
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01:50:14 <MDude> It seems there aren't any expert systems for answering questions on the nature of expert systems.
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02:12:54 <Sgeo> So, NodeJS 11 will have generators. I am now interested in learning NodeJS.
02:19:41 <Sgeo> There are advantages to having to clearly indicate where any potential cooperative threading yields are
02:20:05 <Sgeo> Hmm, generators are mutable in a way that continuations aren't, ick
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02:32:43 <coppro> what's a generating set for NodeJS?
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02:41:04 <Sgeo> generating set?
02:44:03 <Sgeo> "Good thing we were forced to change our calling syntax to help us see the danger."
02:47:31 <coppro> Sgeo: you know, a set that generates all elements through repeated application of the operation
02:50:28 <Sgeo> var generatingSet = ((function*(){yield 1; yield 2})()).next
02:51:03 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe not
02:52:18 <Bike> kinda doubt there's a reasonable way to make a group out of node
02:52:56 <Sgeo> http://howtonode.org/generators-vs-fibers
03:02:41 <Sgeo> wat https://github.com/trevorlinton/webkit.js
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03:06:36 <MDude> What do they generate?
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03:22:09 <Sgeo> http://taskjs.org/
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03:37:13 <MDeam> I find that an odd coincidence, since I mentioned wanting something earlier that apparently amounted to cooperative mulitasking in javascript.
03:37:44 <MDeam> And then it happens is a way that's possibly much better than what I was thinking.
03:38:07 <Sgeo> MDeam: yield and friends isn't available in most browsers. Welcome to callback hell.
03:38:38 <MDeam> Then I'll stick with making a silly tihng later.
03:39:09 <Sgeo> Promises seem to be the popular way of coping
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04:05:10 <Sgeo> I think nodejs's stdlib looks interesting
04:07:42 <Bike> d d d d d d d d d d dd d d d d d d d
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05:10:34 <Sgeo> npm looks really cool
05:11:14 <oerjan> the new agoran rule about signing your messages looks poised to be both hilarious and annoying.
05:11:24 <oerjan> i just realized it applies even to ##nomic.
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05:12:44 <oerjan> or wait, on rereading the rule, it probably doesn't.
05:14:55 <fowl> how can we kill off javascript once and forall?
05:16:20 <not^v> stab everyone involved in making javascript
05:16:27 <not^v> stab everyone involved in making HTML5
05:16:59 <Sgeo> Ok. The person behind the Socket.IO chat demo is brain damaged
05:17:08 <not^v> make a new non shitty markup scripting language
05:17:11 <mcpherrin> become the biggest mass murderer ever?
05:17:30 <oerjan> mcpherrin: no one said it was going to be easy.
05:17:34 <not^v> also kill all the PHP devs
05:17:37 <Sgeo> The client sanitizes by putting input into a div and reading the HTML. It then sends it, server does no sanitation, and the result gets put into the display via .text()
05:17:49 <mcpherrin> not^v: at this point it's probably easier to just wipe out all of humanity
05:17:50 <fowl> not^v, have you seen god bless america?
05:17:54 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe not
05:18:01 <Sgeo> function cleanInput (input) {
05:18:01 <Sgeo> return $('<div/>').text(input).text();
05:18:05 <oerjan> Die bösen werden geschlachtet
05:18:49 <not^v> lets start the purge
05:19:00 <not^v> everyone with an IQ lower than 200 dies
05:19:11 <fowl> Sgeo, the point of a demo is usually a basic test
05:20:12 <Bike> 200, so that's like 6 SDs, so 1 in 506797346 survive
05:20:23 <Bike> so like... fourteen people or so
05:20:36 <Bike> standard deviation
05:20:55 <Bike> IQ has a mean of 100 and SD of 15. for example, my IQ is 97
05:22:01 <fowl> according to who?
05:22:12 <Bike> iunno. took a test once.
05:22:18 <elliott> has anyone noticed lately that this channel is completely terrible?
05:22:38 <not^v> Bike, an IQ of 97 is low
05:22:44 <fowl> Bike, you should retake it, you have a higher iq than that
05:23:01 <not^v> no fucking way you have below average IQ
05:23:07 <not^v> (excluding america)
05:23:14 <Bike> bad news, i'm in america
05:23:19 <Bike> elliott: "what makes you say that"
05:23:27 <fowl> whats the IQ average in america
05:23:39 <fowl> or is it uncomputable because of all the illegal immigrants
05:23:43 <not^v> the world is 93 or something
05:24:03 <Bike> ok yeah done being funny.
05:26:00 <Bike> IQ is a dumb as hell test and I hate living in this environment where sad joke death threats about programming languages are normal.
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05:26:41 <oerjan> <elliott> has anyone noticed lately that this channel is completely terrible? <-- _very_ lately, maybe.
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05:27:27 <Bike> i am the voice of goddess
05:27:31 <Bike> bow before me, peons
05:30:33 <oerjan> you scared away kmc again
05:31:25 <elliott> not^v: look I've kicked you like once or twice already. can we not make me want to do it again in future
05:32:13 <elliott> actually that's my life advice to literally everyone
05:32:15 <Sgeo> socket.io looks... really, really easy to use
05:32:34 <mcpherrin> Sgeo: socket.io is *great* for whacking out demos of neat things
05:32:44 <oerjan> elliott: literally literally?
05:32:47 <Bike> nuh uh, you haven't kicked me once or tw- no. wait, actually you have
05:32:59 <Sgeo> mcpherrin: are you implying it's not great for anything more complex? What are its limitations?
05:33:15 <Bike> i... did not read that implication
05:33:47 <mcpherrin> Sgeo: The server is limited to a few hundred connections
05:34:00 <mcpherrin> afaik, I haven't used it in 2-3 years
05:34:10 <Sgeo> mcpherrin: hmm. Found a Haskell library implementing the protocol
05:35:03 <Sgeo> mcpherrin: is that just a server limitation or a protocol limitation
05:35:18 <shachaf> wow what's going on in this channel
05:35:20 <mcpherrin> Sgeo: Dunno; I haven't used it at scale.
05:35:41 <Sgeo> My particular upcoming use case is ... not going to be for a community of hundreds of people
05:35:59 <fowl> everythings falling apart
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05:36:13 <not^v> elliott, you kicked me?
05:36:51 <elliott> then I must remember to make my kicks more memorable in future.
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05:38:09 <elliott> oerjan: can I +b an entire continent or something to make things more dramatic?
05:41:42 <oerjan> well it's not like we get any australians, south americans or africans to speak of.
05:41:57 <^v> one time someone used and entire /24 range to spam an irc channel
05:42:06 <elliott> or whatever name he goes by now
05:42:18 <elliott> I swear we've had a few australians.
05:42:19 <oerjan> elliott: and when was he last here? i rest my case.
05:42:29 <elliott> recent enough to have gotten into haskell
05:42:40 <^v> by /24 i mean /16
05:43:12 <oerjan> itidus was australian wasn't he
05:43:20 <elliott> maybe I *should* ban australia.
05:43:25 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
05:43:30 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b *!*@*.aq.
05:43:33 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
05:43:41 <elliott> I think we can all agree on that.
05:43:45 <Bike> i feel lied to
05:44:03 <elliott> they're both big desert continents nobody cares about
05:44:18 -!- oerjan has set topic: No penguins allowed | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
05:47:24 <oerjan> "The Australian government uses the .aq domain for its official site for the uninhabited Heard Island and McDonald Islands, "heardisland.aq". .hm, the TLD assigned to Heard and McDonald Islands, has instead been transferred to a private registry and opened for general registration."
05:49:47 <^v> oerjan, what are the results of that survey?
05:50:19 <^v> well i gtg bed
05:51:01 <oerjan> `addquote <MDude> It seems there aren't any expert systems for answering questions on the nature of expert systems.
05:51:03 <HackEgo> 1202) <MDude> It seems there aren't any expert systems for answering questions on the nature of expert systems.
05:51:59 <elliott> "Should there be a standardized way of embedding comments? 1. Yes, /* and */ (C++ Style)" good grief, and this calls itself a survey about brainfuck
05:52:41 <oerjan> elliott: well it's a survey about creating a brainfuck standard hth
05:52:51 <elliott> "What should EOF return? (What happens on EOF) [...] Move one cell to the right"
05:52:56 <fowl> last programming language i wrote used <!-- and --> for comments
05:53:01 <fowl> because, its, hilarious
05:53:05 <elliott> oerjan: by brainfuck standard, you mean most pointless brainfuck dialect yet?
05:54:15 <oerjan> elliott: may i suggest reading that when you're in the mood for some silly fun instead twh hth
05:54:46 <elliott> oerjan: you think esoteric programming languages are the place for silly fun?
05:55:51 <oerjan> fowl: um that's html...
05:56:08 <oerjan> elliott: i know it sounds absurd when you put it that way.
05:56:40 <elliott> oerjan: fowl wrote the HTML specification
05:56:58 <oerjan> ah. one of the people we should kill then.
05:57:23 <fowl> oerjan, i know, html comments inside a programming language, doesnt that make you want to punch a kitten?
05:57:58 <oerjan> surprisingly, no. unless the kitten is otherwise very annoying.
05:58:12 <elliott> you know, being driven to violent thoughts by programming isn't normal or a good thing.
05:58:38 <elliott> I thought this was obvious but apparently this channel has believed otherwise twice in an hour.
05:59:18 <oerjan> yeah calm down with a http://esolangs.org/wiki/Snack
06:01:29 <fowl> elliott, i dont think it is programming that drives me to these thoughts, they just bubble up in a programming context
06:01:35 <oerjan> elliott: psst i was joking because fowl _started_ the previous discussion.
06:01:51 <elliott> oerjan: I was responding to fowl, not you.
06:02:12 <elliott> fowl: ok, I agree you have deeper issues then :p
06:02:40 <fowl> i have a tiny brain, dinosaur scale, and a cloaca, you know what that is? its all your parts in one. its a nightmare.
06:04:02 <fowl> the only thing that gets me through the day is thought of landing an aerial strike on one of you or your cars
06:04:45 <elliott> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_cloaca cool, you can get born with a cloaca
06:11:47 <Bike> birds are fairly peaceful
07:03:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Onecode (GermanyBoy)]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39748&oldid=39746 * GermanyBoy * (-5) /* Hello world */
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07:09:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Twocode]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39749&oldid=39747 * GermanyBoy * (-1) /* Factorial */
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08:29:06 <ion> elliott: If you have one, can you lay eggs from it?
08:40:31 <mroman> what exactly does regex-compat use?
08:40:43 <mroman> it doesn't seem like it uses pcre nor posix
08:41:09 <ion> In what programming language?
08:42:08 <ion> The Hackage description: One module layer over regex-posix to replace Text.Regex
08:42:20 <ion> The Hackage dependencies: …, regex-posix (>= 0.95.1)
08:42:43 <ion> The first paragraph in the Haddock: Regular expression matching. Uses the POSIX regular expression interface in Text.Regex.Posix.
08:42:51 <mroman> Prelude Text.Regex> matchRegexAll (mkRegex "([:digit:]*)") "127"
08:42:51 <mroman> Just ("","","127",[""])
08:43:04 <ion> [[:digit:]]
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10:18:56 <boily> oerjan: no penguins allowed? but penguins are the most bestest cutest birds evar!
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10:26:26 <oerjan> boily: sorry, it was elliott's decision
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10:28:23 <boily> elliott: WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?
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15:41:53 <Bike> https://github.com/seutje
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15:55:17 <nooodl> "If you want, you can specify a longer banner width (gitbanner -w X ...). Any width longer than 52 will be cut off on Github, but the banner will be slowly revealed as the weeks go by."
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17:22:55 <Phantom_Hoover> great, for the second time this term my exam's had an incorrect question
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17:39:21 <oerjan> nice timing, i got back the same minute the thunderweather started
17:50:43 <elliott> ion: I do not have a cloaca.
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17:58:13 <HackEgo> MiHoW: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: <HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/>. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
17:59:08 <mihow> what language is that bot written in?
17:59:29 <oerjan> HackEgo runs (nearly) arbitrary linux commands
18:00:10 <mihow> cool. I see some potential for an esoteric language there.
18:00:26 <oerjan> now _fungot_ on the other hand...
18:00:26 <fungot> oerjan: in intercal, programs other than the more of these contexts. the resulting threads backtrack; this is an expression is placed on a system not based on unix and linux systems and versions are also marked `volatile'.
18:00:33 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
18:02:11 <oerjan> and EgoBot is the bot with a lot of esolang interpreters. (in principle HackEgo has copies of them, but the setup isn't quite working)
18:03:30 <mihow> oh interesting. is HackEgo in github?
18:03:31 <oerjan> and there are a number of other bots which aren't so eso-related.
18:03:44 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
18:03:59 <oerjan> well it has its own webpage
18:04:03 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
18:04:18 <oerjan> but i think the underlying code is somewhere like github
18:04:37 <oerjan> and some of it is shared with EgoBot
18:04:45 <mihow> !unlambda ` `.t.est
18:05:06 <mihow> !unlambda ` `.t.e.s.t
18:06:04 <oerjan> mihow: you need 1 less ` than other functions (where .x counts as one function)
18:06:42 <fungot> http://esolangs.org/wiki/unlambda
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18:08:08 <oerjan> Gregor: nice github picture
18:08:36 <EgoBot> ./interps/unlambda/unlambda.bin: file /tmp/input.20501: parse error
18:08:42 <oerjan> mihow: https://github.com/GregorR/hackbot
18:08:56 <mihow> ha, okay i’ll practive outside of irc
18:09:25 <oerjan> x isn't one of the unlambda functions :)
18:09:44 <oerjan> mihow: you can ask EgoBot in private too
18:09:46 <mihow> I thought that’s where the argument goes
18:10:28 <int-e> !unlambda `r`.!`.d`.l`.r`.o`.w`. `.o`.l`.l`.e`.Hi
18:10:34 <oerjan> an unlambda expression is either one of the builtin functions or ` followed by two expressions.
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18:13:50 <mihow> !unlambda `.k`.n`.i`.o`.Bi
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18:15:45 <mihow> okay back to work, thanks for the help oerjan & int-e. I lookforward to playing with hackbot
18:16:01 <int-e> !unlambda `````.H.l`.e. ``.l.,`.o.!```.s.u`.h.e``.f.l`.fri
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18:17:17 <int-e> (it's fun to take a binary tree of with identities at the leaves and work out the evaluation order)
18:18:13 <int-e> I guess the next level is to sprinkle some `d in there.
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19:37:14 <ion> ARST ARSW: Star Wars sorted alphabetically http://youtu.be/5GFW-eEWXlc
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19:50:49 <olsner> hmm, is there only 43m of dialogue in star wars?
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19:52:11 <Bike> seems believablwe
19:54:13 <olsner> hmm, I'd like it by frequency
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19:57:07 <olsner> kenobi occurs twice as often as jedi
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22:25:45 <ion> Seems legit. http://imgur.com/gallery/4nnbyru
22:26:50 <Bike> bump at 100 too, weird
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22:42:14 <Phantom_Hoover> presumably because it clips off either end of the bell curve and dumps those people into those two buckets
22:42:54 <elliott> I would expect 0 to be entirely people who didn't answer any questions or something
22:43:05 <elliott> it's kind of impressive to be perfectly wrong
22:44:34 <Phantom_Hoover> and it's just as ridiculous to get only one question right
22:45:12 <elliott> what I mean is that there are plenty of people who would get scores above 0% but choose not to.
22:45:23 <elliott> so I don't think it's just clipping off the bell curve
22:46:33 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe, but i mean wouldn't you expect that there'd be a bigger number of people getting 0 than 100 then?
22:46:59 <Phantom_Hoover> whereas the jump at 0 is a lot smaller than the one at 100
22:47:17 <elliott> cheating might inflate 100%, too :P
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22:51:36 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, 0 could be "not turned up"
22:52:12 <FireFly> though then I'd expect it to be a lot bigger
22:52:14 <Phantom_Hoover> again, that would probably mean way more people would get 0 than 1
22:52:37 <Taneb> I... don't actually know where this data is coming from
22:52:59 <Bike> in the grand reddit tradition, there is no source.
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23:07:44 <Sgeo> https://github.com/joyent/node/commit/28c6e42e
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23:40:23 <Sgeo> Ugh, are Chrome extensions not allowed to abuse the Javascript on pages?
23:41:10 <Sgeo> I think it would be possibly interesting to, say, write a <canvas> disabler that does something like HTMLCanvasNode.prototype.getContext = function(){};
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00:22:10 <Sgeo> Q.spawn(function*(){console.log("Hello"); yield sleep(1000); console.log("Goodbye");});
00:22:21 <Sgeo> That... looks almost livable
00:23:29 <Bike> what is livability
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00:30:39 <Sgeo> Here's an interesting thought: The Node.JS ecosystem seems somewhat fragmented when it comes to promises... but it really doesn't matter because there's a standard Node.JS style, and practically all promise libraries seem to offer conversions to and from it, so fragmentation probably doesn't cause significant problems, the way streaming libraries in Haskell could cause problems and reluctance to use them anywhere except at the application
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03:30:42 <Sgeo> http://dogeon.org/
03:37:46 <ion> https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-BhAP_yFe8oc/U1GovyKPkyI/AAAAAAAAA5c/P4zl6_P9v2o/w2560-h1920-no/14+-+1
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03:44:49 <kmc> \o/ my lint plugin thingy is working! https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/3409ece44ead6d280b8e
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03:50:22 <Sgeo> kmc: do you have any thoughts on my ecosystem fragmentation thoughts?
03:51:10 <Sgeo> kmc: custom linter?
03:51:29 <kmc> Sgeo: i did not see such thoughts, nor did I think them
03:51:39 <kmc> Sgeo: yeah, rustc will soon support custom lint plugins
03:51:54 <kmc> here's the draft spec (such as it is) https://github.com/kmcallister/rfcs/blob/lints/active/0000-loadable-lints.md
03:51:59 <kmc> has some motivating use cases
03:52:13 <Sgeo> 'Loadable lints produce more coupling of user code to rustc internals (with no official stability guarantee, of course).'
03:52:28 <Sgeo> So, is Rust about to become yet another language primarily defined by its implementation?
03:53:06 <kmc> well, maybe, but I think these lint plugins are more part of the implementation than part of the language
03:53:10 <kmc> clang and gcc also support plugins
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03:53:45 <kmc> I would say Rust has become yet another language where you have to enable a bunch of "extensions" to do anything fun
03:53:47 <Sgeo> Most people use GHC-specific things these days, people may end up using a lot of rustc-specific things
03:54:05 <Sgeo> kmc: huh, in that regard, only Haskell comes to mind
03:54:09 <kmc> in this case the extensions are less about deviating from the standard (because there isn't one) and more about using things we don't want to support from 1.0 to the end of time
03:54:31 <kmc> Sgeo: Linux kernel uses a bajillion GNU C extensions
03:54:47 <Sgeo> Not that familiar with C or Linux kernel, sadly
03:54:49 <kmc> and in JS it's pretty common too (or, you compile the extensions away, which is pretty much the same)
03:54:49 <Sgeo> I should learn
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03:54:59 <kmc> Sgeo: another time I can talk your ear off about craaaazy Linux GNU C tricks
03:55:18 <Sgeo> kmc: I think Javascript's different. At least when you compile them away, the result should still hopefully run on several different JS runtimes
03:55:38 <Sgeo> kmc: sounds interesting
03:55:41 <kmc> Sgeo: anyway I can say that the Rust team is serious about standardizing Rust, but that'll come later, once it's more stable
04:00:25 <kmc> Sgeo: lint plugins have access to the typechecker, so they can do things that external syntactic analysis can't do easily
04:00:34 <kmc> and with marginal extra compile time
04:00:54 <kmc> tomorrow I guess I should make some compelling demos. and tests, gotta have tests
04:01:07 <Sgeo> Could I effectively write my own typesystem as long as it's stricter than the native one?
04:01:21 <kmc> you can certainly do some things like that
04:01:30 <kmc> for Servo we want to forbid certain types from appearing except in certain structs
04:12:25 <HackEgo> dimecoin impercoin pavitcoin degunfrabcoin bchacoin evilcoin worsecoin rocrcoin gritumcoin standrafcoin returncoin vencoin grasscoin sansiscoin evptcoin liberecoin ozoicecoin mousecoin salcoin redisortoicoin
04:25:19 <Bike> it'll never catch on
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05:18:36 <kmc> Sgeo: all multithreaded C programs are using serious language extensions, in the sense that the spec doesn't assign any semantics to concurrency (before C11 that is)
05:19:32 <Bike> semantics shmemantics
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05:31:37 <Sgeo> "One often made mistake is to use closures inside of loops, as if they were copying the value of the loop's index variable."
05:32:26 <Bike> i don't understand why people think there should obviously be a new binding every time
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05:44:02 <Sgeo> "The specification gives exactly one way of accessing the [[Class]] value, with the use of Object.prototype.toString."
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05:48:02 <Sgeo> "The automatic insertion of semicolon is considered to be one of biggest design flaws in the language because it can change the behavior of code."
05:48:15 <Sgeo> npm's style guide says to only use semicolons in specific circumstances
05:48:51 <Sgeo> https://www.npmjs.org/doc/coding-style.html#Semicolons
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05:53:27 <oerjan> <-- i have this small urge to tell all the "label your axes" commenters that they would have failed the test. (fortunately i have no imgur account.)
05:53:34 <oerjan> <Sgeo> https://github.com/joyent/node/commit/28c6e42e <-- i have this small urge to tell all the "label your axes" commenters that they would have failed the test. (fortunately i have no imgur account.)
05:54:07 <oerjan> and i paste the wrong quote.
05:54:41 <oerjan> <ion> Seems legit. http://imgur.com/gallery/4nnbyru <-- i have this small urge to tell all the "label your axes" commenters that they would have failed the test. (fortunately i have no imgur account.)
05:55:02 * oerjan gets 29 points for effort
05:56:49 <ion> oerjan: the Catholic Diocese of Peoria Star Wars watching?
05:57:26 <oerjan> ion: CDOP is like OCPD, but with the letters in the proper order. it is actually relevant in this case.
05:59:27 <oerjan> (http://youtu.be/5GFW-eEWXlc)
06:00:13 <ion> I knew OCD
06:01:47 <oerjan> basically if you think you have OCD but aren't completely weird, you probably have OCPD instead.
06:02:21 <oerjan> (above message completely failing at detangling wrong stereotypes)
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06:45:34 <int-e> "child death overview panel" is a creepy name for an institution
06:46:29 <oerjan> pretty sure they have a creepy job too hth
06:49:31 <kmc> oerjan: what if I am completely weird, but in ways that probably aren't related?
06:50:48 <oerjan> kmc: NOPE. ZERO ON THE FINAL.
06:51:28 <kmc> a polish final? i'd probably get zero anyway
06:52:36 <oerjan> my next joke is ruined by zero actually being zero in polish
06:56:46 <fowl> oerjan, most of the time when you say hth, i dont believe you really hope that helps
06:57:40 <HackEgo> twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
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06:59:23 <Jafet> I think most schools will tend to not give students pass-1 marks
07:00:34 <oerjan> fowl: you may be starting to get it hth
07:02:14 <int-e> fowl: it's a bit more subtle. "hope that helps [but it would surprise me if it did]"
07:03:31 <int-e> (or perhaps that's just my own reading)
07:04:30 <int-e> Three letters can express so much! (And "twh" is worse because it could also stand for "that won't help")
07:06:51 <oerjan> would probably stick an n in there in that case
07:07:36 <int-e> that might help (tmh? hmm.)
07:08:41 <Jafet> twh is more optimistic. (wth?)
07:15:32 <ion> Ooh! http://www.dontstarvegame.com/blog/dont-starve-together-multiplayer-officially-coming-summer-2014
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08:00:43 <oerjan> fff ie11 refuses to open tunes.org logs as text
08:14:31 <FireFly> pretty sure "wth" stands for "what the hell", or did last I saw it used anyway
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08:22:01 <oerjan> lynx has a black background, and no simple way to choose a humane coloring style :(
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08:24:28 <oerjan> i think we are in the end times. absolutely everything in the world is gradually getting annoying to use.
08:25:44 <oerjan> can you use wget as a pipe?
08:25:59 <slereah_> Maybe you are just getting old
08:26:05 <slereah_> Yelling at kids running on your lawn
08:26:16 * oerjan swats slereah_ -----###
08:26:34 <slereah_> Aw Xchat doesn't have a trout command :(
08:27:14 <oerjan> slereah_: you'll not be laughing when you realize this is all a plot by the new world order to drive us insane hth
08:27:26 <shachaf> did you disable the hth disabler
08:27:36 <oerjan> no just circumventing hth
08:27:50 <shachaf> you should just disable it hth
08:27:52 <HackEgo> [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+0068 LATIN SMALL LETTER H]
08:28:02 * trout glares at slereah_
08:28:08 <Taneb> I like the current arc in Gunnerkrigg Court
08:28:28 <oerjan> Taneb: my trick leaves no trace in the output.
08:28:31 * trout slaps slereah_ with a giant squid
08:28:34 <kmc> `unidecode θ
08:28:35 <HackEgo> [U+03B8 GREEK SMALL LETTER THETA]
08:28:40 <HackEgo> U+13000 EGYPTIAN HIEROGLYPH A001 \ UTF-8: f0 93 80 80 UTF-16BE: d80cdc00 Decimal: 𓀀 \ 𓀀 \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
08:29:08 <kmc> the other day at dinner I told a bunch of people (including a CSS working group member) about good old U+A66E
08:29:39 <kmc> shachaf: isn't it rad when people denote days of the week by M T W Θ F?
08:30:18 <Taneb> What was the limeric, again?
08:30:30 <kmc> also "Jason D. Jfmamj" is a good fake name
08:30:33 <oerjan> ah stackexchange helpfully suggests -O -
08:30:43 <kmc> you can say it's Welsh or something
08:30:43 <slereah_> I am a bit sad that Klingon was rejected from Unicode
08:30:51 <kmc> slereah_: yeah, that came up too
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08:31:07 <kmc> I said that Unicode was only for very serious characters like PILE OF POO and SMILING CAT FACE
08:31:11 <shachaf> i told someone about U+A66E the other day too
08:31:28 <kmc> `unidecode Ϡ
08:31:28 <slereah_> Well Klingons do not have japanese cellphone company money
08:31:28 <HackEgo> [U+03E0 GREEK LETTER SAMPI]
08:31:42 <HackEgo> U+F8DF - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: ef a3 9f UTF-16BE: f8df Decimal:  \ () \ Uppercase: U+F8DF \ Category: Co (Other, Private Use) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
08:31:56 <kmc> `unidecode ꙮ
08:31:57 <HackEgo> [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O]
08:31:59 <HackEgo> U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O \ UTF-8: ea 99 ae UTF-16BE: a66e Decimal: ꙮ \ ꙮ \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
08:32:05 <shachaf> oerjan: unidecode should be called icode hth
08:32:15 <slereah_> It is the spookiest letter of unicode
08:32:24 <slereah_> And I say this after looking at the Mayan unicode section
08:32:37 <shachaf> `run ln -s unidecode bin/icode
08:32:44 <kmc> `run quote 1140 # Taneb
08:32:45 <HackEgo> 1140) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
08:32:59 <kmc> however this is an inaccurate limerick
08:33:04 <kmc> because ꙮ is Letter, Other
08:33:31 <kmc> it's almost as bad as that other limerick which makes dubious anatomical claims about the man from nantucket
08:33:57 <shachaf> what a failure of a limerick
08:34:03 <shachaf> i'll strive for maximal accuracy in the future
08:34:21 <kmc> hmm, "autofellatio" works in a double dactyl
08:34:37 <shachaf> it's never actually saying that ꙮ isn't alphanumeric, though.
08:34:45 <kmc> I guess so
08:34:57 <kmc> https://www.wordnik.com/lists/double-dactyl-words
08:35:03 <shachaf> in fact, given that it uses ꙮ, it's giving good evidence for the opposite
08:35:17 <kmc> but it's contrasting prose with poetry
08:35:20 <Taneb> shachaf, only if you are Swedish
08:35:30 <shachaf> Taneb: do you remember the original context
08:35:36 <Taneb> shachaf, not really
08:35:53 <Taneb> I'm trying to write one now
08:36:14 <kmc> https://www.wordnik.com/lists/double-dactyls
08:36:17 <HackEgo> [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O] [U+0068 LATIN SMALL LETTER H] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+0068 LATIN SMALL LETTER H]
08:36:18 <shachaf> http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/esoteric/13.06.05
08:36:46 <HackEgo> bin/icode: symbolic link to `unidecode'
08:36:52 <HackEgo> [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0068 LATIN SMALL LETTER H] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+0068 LATIN SMALL LETTER H]
08:36:52 <kmc> hm both "heterosexual" and "autofellatio" work as double dactyl words
08:37:17 <Taneb> I... am both proud and disappointed at my limerick ability
08:38:27 <kmc> "i am both proud and disappointed at my autofellatio ability"
08:38:33 <kmc> okay enough kmc.jerkcity.moed
08:39:03 <kmc> `unidecode ꙮerjan
08:39:04 <HackEgo> [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+006A LATIN SMALL LETTER J] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N]
08:39:28 <kmc> many-eyed seraphꙮerjan
08:40:03 <Taneb> There was a young man in York / Who read about Ankh-Morpork / "Discworld", he said / "Up with I am fed" / And instead watched Mindy and Mork
08:40:11 -!- kmc has set topic: The channel for CDOP Star Wars watching | AVOID SPIKES | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
08:42:51 <HackEgo> [U+A669 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER MONOCULAR O] [U+A66B CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER BINOCULAR O] [U+A66D CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER DOUBLE MONOCULAR O] [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O]
08:43:27 <Taneb> (Disclaimer: I am not watching Mindy and Mork, or, indeed, the more exist-y Mork and Mindy)
08:44:21 <shachaf> Taneb: you gotta get the meter :'(
08:44:51 <Taneb> shachaf, it scans for me?
08:45:33 <Taneb> If I put on an RP accent
08:45:33 <shachaf> hm, perhaps we have different ideas of a limerick
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08:46:32 <shachaf> it doesn't help that i don't know how to prononuce a bunch of words
08:48:01 <shachaf> can you annotate your emphasis
08:48:10 <shachaf> what do you expect of a limerick
08:48:21 <Taneb> I have a very loose definition of limerick
08:48:59 <Taneb> Line 4 comes out sounding quite rushed
08:50:54 <Taneb> I think it's dactylic
08:52:23 <oerjan> Taneb: i think most of your lines have one syllable less than is acceptable
08:53:30 <oerjan> ok maybe not most. but definitely the third and fourth.
08:54:10 <shachaf> what about the first, second, and fifth
08:54:30 <oerjan> i think the first is acceptable variation
08:55:40 <oerjan> oh actually not the fourth either, it's just bad
08:55:46 <shachaf> perhaps "morpork" is pronounced with emphasis on the second syllable and not the first
08:56:00 <oerjan> well that needs to be assumed.
08:56:47 <Taneb> I can email people a recording of a reading maybe
08:57:49 <Taneb> If you want an email of me reading this limerick, pm me your address before 10:05 BST
08:59:22 <shachaf> wait, i've heard "morpork" pronounced in _Discworld_ the computer game
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09:00:00 <Taneb> shachaf, I recorded it on my phone
09:00:13 <Taneb> I guess I could BlueTooth it to you, if you're within 30 meters
09:00:23 <Taneb> But then I mayswell just find you and read it to you
09:02:25 <Taneb> I could send it THROUGH IRC
09:05:07 <Taneb> Screw you guys I think this is poetic genius
09:08:44 <shachaf> now i'm writing a limerick but i can't finish the last line `h̀elṕ´
09:08:58 <shachaf> or any of the other ones, actually
09:10:29 <Taneb> There was once a Finn in CA / Who wrote a limerick one day / But trouble he had / That made him quite mad / No I can't finish this one either
09:10:48 <shachaf> a limerick's never been written / by those who reside in great britain; / as a parting good-bye wish, / their old pals, the irish, / decided: infringers get smitten!
09:10:58 <slereah_> There once was a man from Madrass
09:11:04 <slereah_> Whose balls were made of fine brass!
09:11:24 <Taneb> shachaf, wasn't Edward Lear from Britain?
09:11:25 <slereah_> And sparks came out of his ass!
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09:11:35 <slereah_> (the Leprechaun movies taught me a lot)
09:12:06 <shachaf> Taneb: and his limericks were generally utter scow
09:12:21 <shachaf> the first line and the last line ending with the same word
09:12:31 <shachaf> no sort of humor or story or flavour or anything
09:12:43 <shachaf> oops i half-ued my sentence
09:13:20 <Taneb> Filthy trans-atlantic scum
09:14:37 <shachaf> mr. lear's limericks are like stories that go nowhere
09:15:03 <shachaf> barely rhyme or reason to them
09:16:03 <shachaf> I like the first quotation in http://www.poemhunter.com/edward-lear/
09:16:18 <shachaf> Then I looked it up and it looks like the ellipsis isn't part of the original poem.
09:16:23 <shachaf> But it's a very good ending.
09:17:10 <shachaf> Calico Pie, / The little Birds fly / Down to the Calico tree, / Their wings were blue, / And they sang "Tilly-loo!" / Till away they flew— / And they never came back...
09:18:48 <shachaf> A big improvement over the original, it turns out.
09:23:11 <HackEgo> Eg˚Nf2<ܩX].)͂jU.gm0&u-CAtު)oI+sLMႍG竹HGF.[Ό_4ˌSf=}*}ܿ[G9L\-]&D<Y4wi_ܫ+έ'`kbzK.ɵ8hbtqR[)QhOh%9<.%Ýi-"n.m.꫟Ꮬ褝w&ˆ!d*xAY_&oGHZ5h|\v# \ !S \ R
09:23:33 <HackEgo> =7l!jh]iil+b-56jC7d!Bm}Λcp!MMo?.Jw#F|@/4"I_ʣ7*yO3TjbY>qEygC|tXU.L}v_H1UtpoP2afbo\.)vU}Pũ¥@z`3>&s-KoLgzј>K}`ZBDsɐwPH2l:°z4mZ.v1`0z6fOqC|do.b \ *_ƧlPᚲ!UX U^ \ kGSl
09:23:44 <Taneb> `run echo < wisdom/ngevd
09:23:52 <Taneb> `run cat wisdom/ngevd
09:23:53 <HackEgo> ngevd is a fake wisdom entry. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼
09:25:57 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl.
09:26:08 <Taneb> Is empty = forever (return ()); (<A
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09:26:45 <Taneb> a <|> b = run a and b concurrently and kill the one that finishes last
09:26:57 <Taneb> A valid definition for an Alternative instance for IO?
09:27:01 <slereah_> Guys let's make an APL clone with unicode as a character set
09:27:09 <slereah_> It will have ALL THE INSTRUCTIONS
09:27:18 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/a lying/an antediluvian/' wisdom/oerjan
09:27:25 <FireFly> uh I think APL is an APL clone with (a subset of) unicode as a character set
09:27:56 <FireFly> even the private-use characters
09:27:58 <shachaf> Taneb: I don't know, what are the laws?
09:28:05 <Taneb> shachaf, essentially the monoid laws
09:28:23 <shachaf> No "distributes over Applicative operators" or anything?
09:28:29 <Taneb> Nothing documented
09:28:54 <slereah_> Not sure what the egyptian penis hieroglyph would be
09:29:03 <shachaf> Did you know: An Alternative is a monoid in the category of endofunctors?
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09:36:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39750&oldid=39548 * 92.16.148.172 * (+155) /* Computing components */
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10:34:46 <slereah_> Wasn't there some assembly languages that had jump instructions for every instructions
10:35:19 <slereah_> You could make it read backward I guess
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10:53:22 <boily> @tell MDude hi! who are you? you were quoted!
10:55:59 <boily> @ask MDude I may have meant ask?
10:56:31 <oerjan> worst xkcd pun in recent memory
10:58:56 <boily> I like it. it is beautiful.
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11:26:31 <slereah_> it reminds me of http://laughingsquid.com/wp-content/uploads/facebook-fan-20100225-062900.jpg
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11:40:32 <impomatic> mroman: The results from the Spring Core War Tournament are up :-) http://corewar.co.uk/spring2014.htm
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12:24:08 <oerjan> @check \x -> isAlpha x == isLetter x
12:24:14 <oerjan> @check \x -> isAlpha x == isLetter x
12:25:28 <oerjan> > and [isAlpha x == isLetter x | x <- [minBound..maxBound]]
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12:46:37 * oerjan wonders what the heck is the difference between lazy and strict ST monads
12:48:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RAGE!!!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39751&oldid=35531 * Malltog * (+415) Marked 'interpreter' as compiler (the interpreting is left to system python) and upgraded it a bit
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12:56:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:RAGE!!!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39752&oldid=37831 * Malltog * (+575)
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13:01:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Rand.Next()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39753&oldid=39516 * Malltog * (+248)
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17:16:17 <Taneb> Do not climb trees with green bark
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17:16:57 <Taneb> I am down to zero clean pairs of trousers
17:20:32 <fizzie> I am in room number 404.
17:20:52 <fizzie> I keep not finding it and walking past the door.
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17:34:17 <fizzie> It's a hotel room, so it kind-of is.
17:34:34 <fizzie> For 403 I probably just wouldn't get the door open.
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17:45:02 <Taneb> I feel pretty crap
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17:53:41 * Melvar learns of another -l pun: libottery.
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18:27:16 <Melvar> newsham: I mean, that are actual libraries.
18:27:29 <kmc> https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/3/17/525 "This feature encodes Oops messages into a QR barcode that is scannable by any device with a camera."
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20:07:06 <oerjan> `addquote <fizzie> I am in room number 404. <fizzie> I keep not finding it and walking past the door.
20:07:08 <HackEgo> 1203) <fizzie> I am in room number 404. <fizzie> I keep not finding it and walking past the door.
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20:21:03 <HackEgo> 439) <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it is a hate so pure and... pumpkin seeds?
20:21:04 <HackEgo> 42) <ehird> no Deewiant <Deewiant> No?! <Deewiant> I've been living a lie <ehird> yep. <Deewiant> Excuse me while I jump out of the window ->
20:21:04 <HackEgo> 423) <Sgeo> My memory passed <monqy> rest in peace sgeos memory
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20:25:17 <fungot> FireFly: e405 program rejected for mental health reasons. icktemp on djgpp, where the preceding statement finishes executing. ( if an attempt is made to reverse-assign the same capital letters can be of either datatype ( that is `next'ed to and nor or ( which is not the while as a method of installing them).
20:25:43 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic* irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
20:26:06 <FireFly> the INTERCAL manual doesn't make for a good wordset, apparently
20:27:35 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
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20:27:35 <fungot> FireFly: your client is broken." :)
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20:45:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BF Joust strategies]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39754&oldid=39705 * Oj742 * (-119)
20:46:48 <Taneb> Is a group homomorphism what it sounds like
20:47:55 <oerjan> what do you think it sounds like
20:49:00 <Taneb> A mapping, f, from a Group(+, G) to a Group (*, H) such that f(x) * f(y) = f(x + y)?
20:49:27 <oerjan> that would be correct.
20:49:48 <kmc> and f(0) = 1 (in your notation)
20:49:50 <kmc> but maybe that follows?
20:50:16 <shachaf> a group homomorphism is just a functor
20:50:20 <shachaf> a group action is also just a functor
20:50:24 <Taneb> kmc, I just used + and * because they are easy to write on a keyboard
20:50:31 <Taneb> shachaf, what is a group action
20:50:45 <Taneb> Also what is the standard acronym meaning "I would like a hth please"
20:51:05 <kmc> i,i algebraists do it in groups
20:51:06 <shachaf> in particular a functor : G -> Set, where G is your group
20:51:25 <shachaf> (represented as a category (groupoid) with one object)
20:51:30 <Bicyclidine> just atlk like a fucking human being you fucking nerd
20:52:01 <kmc> Bicyclidine: o_O
20:52:02 <oerjan> Taneb: homomorphism for groups is just a special case of homomorphism for a universal algebra with arbitrary operations
20:52:25 <FireFly> it took me a second to realise "atlk" wasn't another obscure acronym
20:52:34 <Taneb> oerjan, imagine that I don't officially learn this until next year
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20:53:32 <Taneb> Reading a textbook on Category Theory
20:53:50 <oerjan> Taneb: i don't think i _ever_ officially learned universal algebra hth
20:54:03 <oerjan> but it was so cool i had to pick up some
20:54:09 <shachaf> i don't think ever even learned regular algebra hth :'(
20:54:10 <Taneb> Am I right in thinking that matrix multiplication is an example of a semi-additive category?
20:54:46 <oerjan> Taneb: i suspect you can drop the semi
20:55:42 <oerjan> matrix multiplication is isomorphic to the category of finite-dimensional vector spaces
20:57:00 <oerjan> ", and so we can alternatively define an additive category to be a semiadditive category having the property that every morphism has an additive inverse."
20:57:12 <oerjan> and matrices have negatives, q.e.d.
20:58:34 <oerjan> "The algebra of matrices over a ring, thought of as a category as described below, is also additive."
21:00:30 <oerjan> Taneb: actually strengthen that to "abelian category", i see nothing infinite in the definition of that either
21:01:07 <oerjan> "As special cases of the two previous examples: the category of vector spaces over a fixed field k is abelian, as is the category of finite-dimensional vector spaces over k."
21:01:27 <Taneb> oerjan, I'm not up to abelian categories
21:04:02 <oerjan> they're what you need to start doing homological algebra hth
21:04:42 <oerjan> (you'll probably _never_ get up to that *MWAHAHAHA*)
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21:08:16 <Bicyclidine> man electrical engineers really dig infintesimals, wtf
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21:21:26 <shachaf> whoa, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union-closed_sets_conjecture
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22:38:40 <Taneb> http://imgur.com/82wfP6h
22:43:53 <fowl> i'm american, whats the problem
22:44:31 <fowl> that looks correct :x
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22:55:19 <FireFly> To be fair, if you gave me a map of some random US state and its neighbours I wouldn't be able to tell whether two of the states' names were switched
22:55:40 <Taneb> Oh, I definitely wouldn't
22:55:40 <FireFly> although if I were annotating maps of US states I would probably look it up
22:55:46 <Taneb> Some parts of Europe I get wrong
22:55:55 <Taneb> Most counties of England I'd get wrong
22:56:07 <fowl> i dont care about things outside of my bubble
22:56:07 <Bicyclidine> "To my surprise, the M-function mex calls a Perl function, which parses (not calls!) a BAT file" help me
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23:09:06 <int-e> . o O ( Would next Tuesday be convenient for you? Yes? Great, see you in court then! )
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00:00:13 <zzo38> How many bombs would be required to destroy not only the entire Earth but damage much of the solar system?
00:01:09 <Bicyclidine> http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/lanl/docs1/00329010.pdf godspeed, zzo
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00:02:05 <zzo38> Hopefully they don't make such bomb
00:04:07 <Bicyclidine> It's a paper from the Manhattan Project about how many nukes you'd need to ignite the atmosphere.
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01:13:03 <Sgeo> I thin I might love npmjs. Shame about its security record though
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02:11:16 <Sgeo> Suppose your project a has dependencies on b and c. b has a depenedecy on z version 1, c has a dependency on z version 2.
02:11:19 <Sgeo> npm can handle that.
02:12:15 <Bike> can npm feed me cheesy potatoes?
02:13:07 <fowl> Sgeo, why is that special? when you load dependencies like var localname = require("somefile"), it _should_ handle that
02:14:26 <fowl> with no extra work
02:20:09 <Sgeo> fowl: because a lot of languages don't work like that
02:20:20 <Sgeo> I know Lua does, at least when used in nginx
02:20:59 <fowl> lua and limbo from plan9 are the only others i know of
02:22:18 <Sgeo> Now I have to learn Limbo, don't I
02:22:20 <Jafet> How does that loader choose the version to load?
02:23:12 <Sgeo> The dependencies are installed in a subdirectory node_modules relative to the project. And those dependencies themselves have node_modules directories
02:23:23 <Sgeo> So, a waste of space, but what's more important?
02:24:30 <fowl> i wouldnt call that a waste of space lol
02:24:43 <Sgeo> http://nodejs.org/api/modules.html#modules_loading_from_node_modules_folders
02:24:53 <fowl> its a good thing to do, bundler does it for ruby
02:24:56 <Jafet> Well, it's easy to not have to deal with dependencies if you don't want any of the benefits of dependencies.
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02:37:22 <zzo38> Do you know what the 2D barcodes on bank statements are? Whoever I asked at the bank, said they didn't know their purpose. They are not a QR code; I can see that much at least. I can also see that it seems too small to encode all the data of the bank statement.
02:38:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39755&oldid=39750 * Zzo38 * (+49)
02:42:33 <Sgeo> OF COURSE npm uses HTTP and not HTTPS
02:43:03 <Bike> shame about its security record though
02:43:49 <Sgeo> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7443861
02:55:31 <Sgeo> Does cabal use http?
02:55:38 <Sgeo> Someone in the node channel claimed so
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03:18:31 <^v> `unidecode ▚
03:18:31 <HackEgo> [U+259A QUADRANT UPPER LEFT AND LOWER RIGHT]
03:26:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Rand.Next()]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39756&oldid=39753 * Malltog * (+0) Changed 'mush' to 'much'
04:18:13 <newsham> "curl http://npmjs.org/install.sh | sh
04:18:29 <newsham> what could possibly go wrong? pipe some web page directly to a shell, dont use https. no problem!
04:18:43 <Sgeo> "I think the beauty of node.js, and a lot of other modern js technologies, is if you're one of the (majority) of developers out there who write just enough javascript to get back to their "real" code, then the first moment they start writing in node, they'll be forced to confront the fact that their code is horrible."
04:18:55 <Sgeo> Maybe node will be helpful for me
04:18:56 <Bike> modern js technologies
04:18:59 <Bike> the saddest phrase
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04:43:19 <zzo38> I have managed to fix SQLite to allow renaming views and to make EXPLAIN output containing "Program" instructions to include the name of the trigger program. Does anyone other than me would find such thing useful?
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05:57:01 <zzo38> What happen if you extend a type system with types corresponding to equations of natural numbers and operations on them?
06:20:36 <zzo38> Like that, except that the value of variables are done by type variables
06:27:33 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Does cabal use http? <-- yep. https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/936
06:27:54 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo <Sgeo> Does cabal use http? <-- yep. https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/936
06:28:22 <oerjan> they're not considering it very urgent, either :(
06:29:55 <oerjan> (also the person claiming an actual attack in that thread is a troll.)
06:30:41 <oerjan> they don't even have signatures. :(
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06:38:49 <Sgeo> http://wtfjs.com/2013/02/12/obfuscated-fibonacci
06:42:55 <Sgeo> wtfjs is itself a bit wtfy sometimes
06:43:27 <Sgeo> http://wtfjs.com/2011/05/12/parseInt-is-not-eval
06:43:33 <Sgeo> No shit, sherlock?
06:47:15 <Bike> Sgeo: http://www.mathworks.com/help/matlab/ref/str2num.html
06:47:53 <Sgeo> buh....wuh.... "Accelerating the pace of engineering and science"... into a wall, I assume
06:48:41 <Bike> i guess it's because they wanted it to parse arrays and complexes and stuff. but didn't feel like moving out the parser.
06:48:45 <Sgeo> Oh, str2double is safe
06:49:03 <Sgeo> But still not great to not make it obvious that str2num is unsafe
06:49:30 <Bike> well, that box warning is even more prominent in t he in-IDE docs.
06:49:45 <Bike> i was looking for a number reader, found str2num, recoiled, and used str2double instead.
06:50:04 <Sgeo> People aren't likely to use this language without an IDE?
06:50:10 <Sgeo> I use Notepad++ for Javascript all the time
06:50:37 <Bike> matlab? not its intended userbase, no
06:50:57 <Bike> the IDE is actually pretty good, other than hanging when the listener does
06:51:40 <Sgeo> Is its intended userbase likely to understand the warning?
06:51:49 <Sgeo> And its implications?
06:52:57 <Bike> matlab is almost entirely used for very domain-specific research code, so it's not a security dealie or nothin
06:54:44 <Bike> still funny as shit mind
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07:00:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RAGE!!!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39757&oldid=39751 * Oerjan * (-169) Fix the blank lines
07:07:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Rand.Next()]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39758&oldid=39756 * Oerjan * (+43) unsigned
07:13:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[Onecode]] to [[Onecode (Iconmaster)]]: Name now duplicated
07:13:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[Talk:Onecode]] to [[Talk:Onecode (Iconmaster)]]: Name now duplicated
07:16:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Onecode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39763&oldid=39760 * Oerjan * (+47) IIRC this is our second disambiguation page ever
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07:21:27 <myname> maybe we should add a category for disambiguation pages :>
07:21:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Onecode]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39764&oldid=39762 * Oerjan * (+34) I don't think this should be a redirect, make it a text link instead
07:22:19 <oerjan> myname: maybe a _tiny_ bit early.
07:22:33 <myname> also, what happens if i dedide to make two languages by the same name
07:22:52 <myname> "this may be: Foo (myname) or Foo (myname)"
07:24:37 <oerjan> the second would then be Foo (myname cannot name things properly I)
07:26:16 <oerjan> the third would be Foo (myname still cannot name things properly so we banned him) hth
07:26:26 <oerjan> possibly with the hth included
07:26:53 <oerjan> (at which point elliott bans me)
07:27:45 <myname> i just thought of a language that uses "foo hth" as "return foo" and twh as a function call...
07:28:09 <oerjan> sounds inevitable when you put it that way.
07:29:08 <oerjan> ok it sounds inevitable whether or not you put it that way hth
07:29:59 * oerjan considers neither confirming nor denying that he planned this all along.
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07:32:02 <myname> okay, next idea: 3 languages called VVV, WV and VW, what wouldn't be disambiguous AT ALL!
07:33:50 <myname> i do think banning for 3 languages with the same name is harsh, though
07:34:23 <oerjan> well it's to nip it in the bud
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07:42:03 <myname> also, i am going to make a small presentation about esolangs. i thought about 3 main categories: senseless, art, math
07:42:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:RAGE!!!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39765&oldid=39752 * Oerjan * (+213) no space left
07:42:10 <myname> any suggestions/objections?
07:43:01 <oerjan> you're missing pure evil hth
07:43:18 <myname> oerjan: do you have an example language for that?
07:44:25 <oerjan> that would be one. although if you look in Category:Shameful you might find some others.
07:44:56 <oerjan> (disclaimer: there is no Category:Shameful hth)
07:45:16 <myname> i'd put german in there
07:45:25 <oerjan> no, we have clearly decided that it should not exist hth
07:45:30 <myname> although i will list it at senseless
07:46:41 <oerjan> i suggest you visit the page for it for some clarity why it doesn't exist hth
07:49:37 <myname> that doesn't make much sense
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07:50:13 <oerjan> neither do the languages in that category
07:50:37 <oerjan> also you may be meta-humoristically challenged
07:52:02 <oerjan> and thus in fine company
07:55:10 <myname> i do like meta-humor. at least that part of it that i understand
07:57:48 <zzo38> A category can contain files even though the category file itself is not exist
07:58:45 <zzo38> Describe what you plan to make in presentation? I am not sure such three are sufficient category. But, perhaps INTERCAL should also be included?
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08:00:20 <myname> maybe i should add "humour" as a fourth one
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08:10:44 <myname> question is: at which point?
08:13:24 <myname> zzo38: where would you put INTERCAL?
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08:25:27 <myname> i could add a category INTERCAL :p
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09:26:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Onecode]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39766&oldid=39763 * GermanyBoy * (+14) added template
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11:00:26 <Taneb> I am scared that I am too incompetent to do things I want to do so I find myself unable to even try
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11:02:18 <Taneb> Also today was a terrible day to wear shorts
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11:08:31 <mhi^> Dunning-Krueger is calling!
11:11:41 <Taneb> mhi^, this is something I have never even attempted before
11:11:49 <Taneb> So I probably am going to be incompetent
11:13:30 <Taneb> Dunning-Kruger does not apply
11:13:35 <shachaf> Taneb: I must make you a credible wigmaker — and quickly.
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11:14:38 <shachaf> Taneb: There's tawny and there's golden saffron, / There's flaxen and there's blonde, / There's coarse and fine, / There's straight and curly, / There's gray, there's white, / There's ash, there's pearly, / There's corn-yellow, / Buff and ochre and / Straw and apricot...
11:16:05 <shachaf> With finer textures, / Ash looks fairer, / Which makes it rare, / But flaxen's cheaper...
11:16:22 <shachaf> i think this works better as a duet
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11:19:04 <Taneb> I am afraid I do not know my lyrics
11:19:41 <shachaf> your lyrics are mostly the same except shifted forward a bit
11:20:05 <shachaf> also i say things like "repeat that. repeat that!"
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12:25:21 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘:’
12:25:24 <idris-bot> Prelude.Nat.plusCommutative : (left : Nat) -> (right : Nat) -> left + right = right + left
12:26:01 <Melvar> zzo38: Something like ↑?
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12:47:33 <Taneb> Procrastinatiiiiooon
12:47:49 <nortti> nation of procastination
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15:00:43 <int-e> The people of Procrasti hereby resolve to lodge a formal complaint with Taneb and nortti about their ridicule of Procasti's glorious nation... later.
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17:18:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Aithecomputerguy * New user account
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17:48:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Burn]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39767&oldid=20474 * Aithecomputerguy * (+1696)
17:49:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Burn]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39768&oldid=39767 * Aithecomputerguy * (+0)
17:50:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Burn]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39769&oldid=39768 * Aithecomputerguy * (+0) A guess.
17:50:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Aithecomputerguy]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39770 * Aithecomputerguy * (+3) Set up user page.
17:55:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Aithecomputerguy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39771&oldid=39770 * Aithecomputerguy * (+10) Added my first esoteric language
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19:05:24 <int-e> what's up with all those stupid programming language names that are common words. http://www.splasmata.com/?p=2798 has me wanting to duckduckgo "swift speed" to get a second opinion which obviously is doomed to failure.
19:05:59 <zzo38> I don't really think is necessarily so bad
19:07:10 <zzo38> In case of some that have Wikipedia articles, you can type in the name and then (programming language) and probably it will find it.
19:07:38 <Bike> i'm annoyed that this is going to outdo the birds
19:07:44 <Bike> birds > programming languages
19:07:59 <zzo38> I do not understand you.
19:08:13 <Slereah_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Lazy%20Bird
19:08:37 <Bike> there is a species of bird called the "swift", zzo
19:08:58 <int-e> to mock a mockingbird (hmm. I should read that some time)
19:09:00 <Bike> there's no species called Lazy Bird, and i'm fond of to mock, so it's all good
19:09:16 <zzo38> O, that's what you mean.
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19:09:25 <Melvar> zzo38: Hey, by the types corresponding to equations of natural numbers, did you mean like:
19:09:27 <zzo38> But, many words are having multiple meanings.
19:09:32 <idris-bot> Prelude.Nat.plusCommutative : (left : Nat) -> (right : Nat) -> left + right = right + left
19:10:09 <zzo38> Melvar: Yes, something like that, but without the (left : Nat) -> (right : Nat) -> at front
19:10:18 <int-e> zzo38: you're right of course that this is no more than a minor nuisance.
19:11:01 <int-e> (and it has been done before with BASIC)
19:11:48 <Melvar> ( \left : Nat, right : Nat => left + right = right + left
19:11:48 <idris-bot> \left => \right => plus left right = plus right left : Nat -> Nat -> Type
19:11:58 <int-e> Customers Who Bought This Item Also Bought
19:12:40 <zzo38> Melvar: I guess so (but I also don't entirely undertsand such program)
19:12:44 <int-e> That suggests Okasaki's "Functional Data Structure" for "To Mock a Mockingbird", which I find amusing.
19:13:14 <Bike> ( (\left : Nat, right : Nat => left + right = right + left) 11 23
19:13:40 <int-e> hmm. "Purely Functional Data Structures" is the right title.
19:14:39 <Melvar> zzo38: It’s a type synonym that’s indexed by two natural numbers, defined as the equality of the two numbers’ addition both ways.
19:15:08 <zzo38> Melvar: O, OK, yes I think that is like what I mean
19:15:15 <idris-bot> (input):1:3: error: expected: "$",
19:15:24 <Bike> i wanna see a value of type 34.
19:16:02 <Bike> ( 7 : (34 : Type)
19:16:02 <idris-bot> (input):1:3: error: expected: "$",
19:16:10 <Bike> no, wait, you use the, right
19:16:13 <idris-bot> Can't resolve type class Num (fromInteger 34)
19:16:25 <Bike> ( the (34 : type) 7
19:16:25 <idris-bot> (input):1:9: error: expected: "$",
19:16:39 <Bike> ( the (34 : Type) 7
19:16:39 <idris-bot> (input):1:9: error: expected: "$",
19:16:45 <Bike> alright sorry.
19:16:46 <Melvar> Bike: Natural numbers are not types.
19:17:01 <Melvar> You can just index types with anything, not just other types.
19:17:02 <Bike> oh the type is actually 34 = 34, huh.
19:17:08 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘:’
19:17:12 <idris-bot> Data type = : ({A0} : Type) -> ({B0} : Type) -> A -> B -> Type
19:17:12 <idris-bot> The propositional equality type. A proof that x = y.
19:17:12 <idris-bot> To use such a proof, pattern-match on it, and the two equal things will then need to be the same pattern.
19:17:12 <idris-bot> Note: Idris's equality type is heterogeneous, which means that it is possible to state equalities between values of potentially different types. This is
19:17:12 <idris-bot> sometimes referred to in the literature as "John Major" equality.↵…
19:17:27 <idris-bot> A proof that x in fact equals x. To construct this, you must have already shown that both sides are in fact equal.
19:17:27 <idris-bot> (implicit) {A0} : Type -- the type at which the equality is proven
19:17:27 <idris-bot> (implicit) {x0} : A -- the element shown to be equal to itself.
19:17:31 <Bike> ( the (34 = 34) 7
19:17:31 <idris-bot> Can't resolve type class Num (fromInteger 34 = fromInteger 34)
19:18:12 <Melvar> The only constructor of (=) is refl.
19:19:28 <FireFly> is `the` a bit like the :: syntax in Haskell, except it being a function and whatnot?
19:19:41 <idris-bot> Manually assign a type to an expression.
19:19:41 <idris-bot> x : a -- the element to get the type
19:21:44 <Melvar> FireFly: It’s a bit like saying “(id :: Foo -> Foo) foo”. You’re passing the type explicitly to a version of the identity function.
19:22:13 <Melvar> Apparenty it’s even defined that way. Huh.
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19:22:55 <FireFly> ( :src the -- probably doesn't work, but worth a try
19:23:54 <Bike> the type value = (the ((->) type type)) value, obviously
19:24:43 <Melvar> ( the (Nat -> Nat) id 42
19:24:48 <oerjan> `addquote <int-e> The people of Procrasti hereby resolve to lodge a formal complaint with Taneb and nortti about their ridicule of Procasti's glorious nation... later.
19:24:50 <HackEgo> 1204) <int-e> The people of Procrasti hereby resolve to lodge a formal complaint with Taneb and nortti about their ridicule of Procasti's glorious nation... later.
19:26:08 <Bike> ( (\t : Type => t -> t) Integer
19:27:06 <Melvar> FireFly: http://eb.host.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/writings/idris-tutorial.pdf ← Official tutorial in case you were serious.
19:29:33 * Melvar finds a thing that has failed to be updated in it.
19:29:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Warpdrive]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39772 * Aithecomputerguy * (+2330) Created page with "[[Warpdrive]] is a language created by [[User:Aithecomputerguy|aithecomputerguy]] that is very loosely based off of cellular automata. It's name comes from the idea of going f..."
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21:56:00 <zzo38> O, they use Famitracker. It can be compiled into NSF too
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22:06:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Official Pants * New user account
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01:01:49 <zzo38> Can you know how to play monstery-poker?
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01:38:12 <Sgeo> ZenMagnets don't understand money
01:38:13 <Sgeo> "The value of Bitcoin doesn't come from government trust (like dollars) or chemical properties (like gold), but instead from mathematical properties of cryptography."
01:38:49 <Bike> it still amuses me to think of bitcoin as based on the labor theory of value
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02:55:45 <zzo38> Monstery-poker game is game many difference from ordinary poker game. In case you lose, then they are allowed to eat your blood, and they are also allowed to eat your money. Also, sometimes there is more aces than other cards. And other differences.
03:03:18 <zzo38> Your opponent, I suppose? Who else?
03:10:38 <shachaf> My opponents have rarely eaten my blood before.
04:03:22 <MDude> Not to be confused with Monastery-poker.
04:04:27 <MDude> Hmm somsome messages me some time ago.
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04:20:34 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/27l0tp/a_cycle_within_a_tree_you_thought_that_was/
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04:42:00 <coppro> Sgeo: trees can't have cycles
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05:00:38 <zzo38> Is more information available of BANCSTAR?
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05:06:28 <zzo38> I can guess now what some things mean by looking at the printout.
05:06:38 <zzo38> However, only a few pages are available.
05:09:31 <zzo38> I can see that 2999,,, seems to be starting a new "page", and that jump targets are page numbers. It appear that command 3001 is for block conditions, which probably are not allowed to be nested.
05:11:14 <zzo38> After the "goto page" instruction at the end of page 1, there is a 1254 instruction, which has no description.
05:11:18 <zzo38> Do you know what it means?
05:16:00 <zzo38> It seems that each number in the program is limited to a signed 16-bit integer and that several strange things are done to ensure it will fit.
05:26:21 <zzo38> Commands with 1 in the ten thousands place seems to be some assignments
05:30:33 <zzo38> I might be willing to try to help them with it
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05:44:50 <zzo38> I do not know why line 00061 is "3000,192,1," instead of "3000,193,1,"
05:47:44 <zzo38> Sometimes it seems variables are assigned the value they already have. Is this supposed to force the corresponding field on the screen to be refreshed?
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06:02:01 <zzo38> Actually I can guess what the 1254 instruction which has no description might be for. Perhaps it is to cause something to be displayed the screen; maybe these instructions are a prompt for variable 1254 and it is displayed even if the prompt is not executed.
06:06:26 <zzo38> I can see the code that says "I'm not too worried about revealing a lot of proprietary information here, as only about ten people in the world can read this code". Well, now I can figure out part of it!
06:10:32 <oerjan> zzo38, the eleventh guy
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06:20:24 <zzo38> Variable 1547 is the "pause flag", which is being cleared a lot, although I am not quite sure of its purpose.
06:26:23 <zzo38> See: http://reocities.com/ResearchTriangle/station/2266/tarpit/bancstar.html I don't know what instruction 9301 is supposed to mean, but it seems like it might be important.
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06:46:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cupid]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39773&oldid=8549 * Rdebath * (+55) Wayback machine pointer
06:50:27 <oerjan> oh we actually do have a disambig template
06:52:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cupid]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39774&oldid=39773 * Oerjan * (+0) /* External resources */ template syntax
06:55:58 <zzo38> OK then you can use that one
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07:16:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Warpdrive]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39775&oldid=39772 * Oerjan * (+207) format, and I'm not convinced by that TC claim
07:19:34 <fowl> im proud of this https://gist.github.com/fowlmouth/8cc9ee26bcf509b5fea5
07:25:04 <oerjan> zzo38: someone already did
07:26:34 <oerjan> damn radiator stopped working
07:27:33 <oerjan> seems to be no water in it at all.
07:27:55 <oerjan> i hope i've managed to close the plug right if it comes back
07:28:57 <oerjan> although if it's like last year, they'll need to do an annoying simultaneous airing of all the apartments "simultaneously"
07:29:18 <oerjan> (annoying because they're ENTERING MY APARTMENT dammit)
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07:30:21 * oerjan wonders if they've turned off the system on purpose, or if it's just a side effect of all the radiators being off during the heatwave
07:31:55 <oerjan> it's not like anyone's actually told me. i wonder if there's an intranet website i'm supposed to know about.
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07:32:56 <oerjan> (i'm worried about the plug because it didn't seem to actually stop turning)
07:37:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Burn]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39776&oldid=39769 * Oerjan * (+52) dates are _not_ optional hth
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08:09:13 <myname> burn kinda reminds me of that language that will be specified in the future
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08:21:42 <oerjan> i'd be surprised if that guess is right, as it doesn't fit my definition of cellular automaton.
08:22:17 <oerjan> but i'll wait for ais523
08:32:52 <myname> what was that graph rewriting language?
08:34:42 <myname> i fail to memorize that name
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09:47:58 <mroman> zzo38: Do you have actual documentation about BANCStar?
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10:21:02 <oerjan> "As your post stands, there is no baby to throw out, and your bathtub is only a small bucket of gas direct from your anus."
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10:22:02 <oerjan> just 7 days until r/physics can theoretically get a new moderator...
10:24:12 <oerjan> um that sounds like i meant that comment should be deleted, it was actually a relatively brilliant flame of a crackpot.
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11:40:13 <myname> are there other cool programming games besides space chem/robozzle/rubicon/manufactoria?
11:44:47 <myname> well, okay, but thats not a kind of "here is a level, solve it" game
11:45:01 <Slereah_> IT IS THE BEST GAME ALL CATEGORY
11:45:19 <myname> Slereah_: nah, dwarf fortress
11:45:30 <Slereah_> DF has the hydrolic compooters yeah
11:46:44 <Melvar> Minecraft with ComputerCraft installed?
11:49:32 <myname> it lacks a good level structure, though
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11:56:10 <Slereah_> Well first you do the .h, then the .c, then preprocessing, then compilation, then linking
11:57:18 <mhi^> Or you win by getting executed.
11:57:22 <mhi^> You never know with C.
11:59:47 <FreeFull> myname: Try http://www.kongregate.com/games/krispykrem/kohctpyktop-engineer-of-the-people
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12:01:41 <myname> FreeFull: oh, i knew that, i never solved power on reset, though
12:03:32 <myname> my bigger problem is to make it go down, but i just got an idea
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13:50:06 <int-e> hmm. I still heve to find a use for n gates (pnp transistors). there's no GND but surely that doesn't make them completely useless? In the meantime what do you think of http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/4andor.png ?
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14:25:18 <int-e> ah. found an (obvious in retorspect) use for pnp transistors.
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14:41:56 <int-e> and this implausible design: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/4andor2.png
14:55:34 <FreeFull> It'd be nice if it allowed diodes
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15:01:38 <myname> gates are way to easy, aren't they?
15:01:58 <myname> although, i'd probably enjoy a game based on funciton
15:15:52 <int-e> and the reset thing would be much harder without pnp transistors, I think.
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15:17:31 <Sgeo> http://node-os.com/
15:17:35 <int-e> myname: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/reset.png
15:17:51 <Sgeo> I guess an OS that uses npm (as suggested by that piece of text), but not node.js for anything else but that, was too much to hope for?
15:20:03 <int-e> FireFly: http://www.kongregate.com/games/krispykrem/kohctpyktop-engineer-of-the-people
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15:30:55 <mroman> zzo38: If you find decent documentation about BANCStar I'd be interested
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16:21:19 <zzo38> mroman: Yes, although I don't know if there is any. Something says it is "undocumented"
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16:29:15 <mroman> the manufacturer gotta have a docu
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16:35:08 <mroman> but I'm not sure whether they lost it or will publish it
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16:44:37 <Sgeo> I tried to email them a long time ago, no response
16:45:01 <Sgeo> I don't know if I even emailed the right place
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16:59:19 <FireFly> http://i.imgur.com/vilevsu.png was my solution for reset
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17:06:48 <mroman> Sgeo: You really asked them for documentation?
17:07:39 <mroman> WP says they are called Broadway & Seymour now
17:08:42 <mroman> if they even still exist
17:09:17 <mroman> As of July 18, 2001, The Broadway & Seymour Group was acquired by WebTone Technologies, Inc.
17:10:18 <mroman> As of September 2, 2003, WebTone Technologies, Inc. was acquired by Fidelity Information Services, Inc.
17:12:04 <mroman> ah. FIS is a company that still exists at least
17:13:01 <mroman> Sgeo: Did you write to the FIS or to whom did you write?
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17:27:37 <zzo38> I don't expect any documentation for the instruction code to exist, although there may be documentation for the screen generator, which might help too.
17:30:00 <tswett> So I wrote a senior thesis and my advisor says I should put it on the arXiv. I wonder if I really should or not.
17:30:22 <tswett> There aren't any new results in it.
17:30:32 <Bike> why the fuck not, imo
17:32:24 <nooodl> myname: zachtronics industries has some more of them
17:32:58 <nooodl> "Ruckingenur" and "The Codex of Alchemical Engineering" are fun!
17:33:03 <Sgeo> mroman: I emailed moreinformation@fisglobal.com
17:33:45 <Sgeo> That was around 2011
17:33:58 <elliott> maybe they're still working on their reply
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17:38:07 <zzo38> Try asking whoever put it in GitHub; maybe they know some things.
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17:41:28 <tswett> I'm looking at Wikipedia's list of mathematical coincidences. I think the most compelling one is that pi^3 is about 0.006 more than an integer.
17:41:55 <tswett> So pi^3 - 31 is a pretty small number.
17:42:01 <zzo38> I didn't see that article, but I will look
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17:59:10 <nooodl> "pi^4 + pi^5 \approx e^6 within 0.000 005%" wowww
18:02:26 <Bike> now get an exact one, so we can learn if they're algebraically dependent once and for all
18:06:50 <nooodl> tswett: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebraic_independence#Algebraic_independence_of_known_constants
18:07:20 <tswett> "It is not even known if pi + e is irrational."
18:07:20 <Bike> tswett: yes, bizarrely
18:07:44 <Bike> there's a lot like that. whether euler-mascheroni is irrational is also unknown, &c
18:07:59 <tswett> Do we know a power series for pi where the ratio between successive terms approaches 0?
18:08:39 <tswett> And where the terms are all rational numbers.
18:09:26 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/f/8/4/f844df0b56253162e6aed16eed56167b.png shrug
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18:10:36 <tswett> 640320^(3/2) isn't rational, is it?
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18:13:11 <Jafet> Gee whiz, it's, like, hyper geometric
18:14:15 <tswett> Did I say "power series"? I meant "series".
18:14:30 <tswett> There's gotta be a word for numbers that can be written as a series of rational numbers where the ratio between successive terms approaches 0.
18:14:32 <Bike> ok good i was confused.
18:14:47 <tswett> I think they're all irrational and closed under addition.
18:14:53 <Melvar> > (pi^4 + pi^5 - exp 6) - (pi^4 + pi^5 - (exp 1)^6)
18:15:04 <Bike> then, http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/8/4/5/845a6038420113e231a6f89b75524680.png
18:15:17 <Bike> oh, except q = e^pi, nvm
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18:15:33 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/8/b/b/8bb0c0c46e24bb426817c4f2a71bdf48.png oh right. there you go.
18:15:37 <Bike> dunno about the ratio bit tho
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18:18:18 <Bike_> since that gets you digits i guess the ratio is about 1/16, oops
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18:20:30 <FreeFull> Bike_: That's the formula most suitable for calculating pi in a power-of-two base
18:20:39 <FreeFull> So perfect for binary or hexadecimal
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18:20:50 <Bike> I was in fact already aware of that
18:21:05 <FreeFull> I think there is one for base 10 too
18:21:27 <FreeFull> I think it's neat how you can calculate any digit of pi without calculating the others
18:21:34 <mroman> well.. I just wrote to fisglobal
18:21:40 <mroman> let's hope for the best :)
18:26:11 <tswett> Anyway, I doubt we're going to come across a series of rational numbers for pi where the ratio approaches zero.
18:27:18 <tswett> Seeing as how that would imply that pi + e is irrational.
18:28:19 <nooodl> what about 3 + 0.14 + 0.001592 + 0.00000065358979 + ...
18:28:58 <tswett> You're a genius, mate.
18:29:11 <tswett> Dang, I think I can prove that 2/3 is irrational.
18:29:24 <tswett> Observe: 2/3 = 0.6 + 0.066 + 0.0006666 + 0.000000066666666 + ...
18:30:41 <nooodl> i don't get why this is supposedly a sufficient condition for irrationality!
18:30:57 <tswett> Fourier's proof of the irrationality of e.
18:31:01 <tswett> It obviously generalizes.
18:31:13 <Slereah_> Irrationality isn't too hard to prove
18:31:22 <Slereah_> At least if you allow proof by contradiction
18:31:31 <tswett> Slereah_: I'll pay you twenty bucks to prove that pi + e is irrational.
18:31:38 <Jafet> Yeah, the hard one is proving 2/3 isn't real
18:31:59 <Slereah_> It's part of Q which is automatically in R!
18:32:03 <tswett> How do you know that 0 ≠ 3?
18:32:28 <Bike> or MY THINKING CAP
18:32:37 <tswett> > 2 / 3 * 3 == (2 :: Double)
18:32:59 <tswett> > 2 / 7 * 7 == (2 :: Double)
18:33:10 <tswett> > 2 / 163 * 163 == (2 :: Double)
18:33:33 <tswett> I really would have expected rounding error to kick in at some point there.
18:33:54 <Jafet> > [k | k<-[1..], recip k * k /= 1]
18:34:02 <Jafet> > [k | k<-[1..], recip k * k /= 1]
18:34:04 <lambdabot> [49.0,98.0,103.0,107.0,161.0,187.0,196.0,197.0,206.0,214.0,237.0,239.0,249.0...
18:34:35 <tswett> > 2 / 49 * 49 == (2 :: Double)
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18:35:33 <tswett> Okay, proof by contradiction. Suppose that 2/3 is rational.
18:35:48 <tswett> Then there must exist integers a and b such that 2/3 = a/b.
18:35:59 <tswett> Without loss of generality, let's assume that b = 3.
18:36:37 <tswett> Now, we have this series for 2/3: 0.6 + 0.066 + 0.0006666 + 0.000000066666666 + ...
18:37:11 <tswett> The terms are rational numbers with denominators 10, 1000, 10000000, and so on. 10^(2^n-1) or whatever.
18:38:00 <tswett> Now, consider the... third partial sum of this series, I guess. Which is 0.6666666.
18:38:43 <tswett> Multiplying this by 10000000, we get 6666666, and then the rest of the series is like 0.66666666 + 0.000000006666666666666666 + ...
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18:39:17 <tswett> Now, is 2/3 * 10000000 an integer?
18:39:29 <tswett> Let's assume that 2/3 * 10000000 is an integer.
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18:40:00 <tswett> Then the difference between 2/3 * 10000000 and 6666666 must be an integer, too, so the rest of the series has to converge to an integer.
18:40:08 <tswett> But the rest of the series clearly converges to something between 0 and 1.
18:40:11 <tswett> This is a contradiction.
18:40:29 <tswett> We have, therefore, proved that 2/3 * 10000000 is not an integer.
18:40:53 <FreeFull> Do you have a proof that the series converges to something between 0 and 1?
18:41:13 <tswett> Quod non erat demonstrandum.
18:41:19 <tswett> FreeFull: that's an open problem.
18:41:20 <FreeFull> I know that it does, but just stating that isn't rigorous
18:41:58 <Jafet> "A new proof that 83 is prime" http://cr.yp.to/talks/2003.03.23/slides.pdf
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18:44:33 <Jafet> applybot, find_theorems "prime 2"
18:44:35 <applybot> *** ML_antiquotation "thm": bad arguments
18:44:38 <tswett> Don't be ridiculous. 2 is divisible by 2.
18:44:48 <Jafet> applybot, find_theorems "prime 2"
18:44:49 <applybot> Primes.two_is_prime_int: prime 2 \ Primes.two_is_prime_nat: prime 2 \ (and 1 more)
18:46:39 <Bike> "Proof: Define R as the ring[...]" i like where this is going
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18:59:03 <tswett> Hey, what if we multiply by 30000000 instead. Then the rest of the series is like 1.99999997 + 0.000000019999999999999997 + ... or whatever.
18:59:10 <tswett> Which is less than 1, so 2/3 is irrational.
18:59:13 <zzo38> Can you play mi-go-scientific-card or scopone-scientific card? I know the latter game at least. ("Scopone" is Italian for "big broom". Did you know that?)
19:00:00 <zzo38> tswett: Is that how the proof is supposed to work?
19:00:31 <zzo38> It doesn't looks like it to me?
19:00:50 <tswett> Well, it *doesn't* work.
19:00:55 <tswett> But it's *supposed* to.
19:04:20 <FreeFull> tswett: Are you sure that 1 shouldn't be a 2?
19:04:34 <tswett> FreeFull: it's definitely a 1, yeah.
19:04:51 <tswett> And those 7s should be 8s.
19:05:01 <tswett> The rest of the series is exactly 2, in fact.
19:05:08 <tswett> And 0 < 2 < 1, so 2/3 is irrational.
19:05:39 <zzo38> Is an infinite sum series supposed to be left-associative or right-associative or what?
19:07:15 <tswett> Right-associative, I guess.
19:07:40 <tswett> The sum of an infinite series is equal to the series's first term plus the sum of the rest of the series.
19:08:04 <zzo38> It is what I thought, but I wasn't sure
19:08:09 <tswett> It is not the case that the sum of an infinite series is equal to the series's last term plus the sum of the rest of the series.
19:08:16 <tswett> Because an infinite series doesn't have a last term.
19:10:00 <tswett> All right, what the Helsinki was I doing. Something unrelated to IRC, I'm sure.
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19:20:47 <mroman> Now I've also written the guy with the github bancstar repo
19:21:09 <zzo38> mroman: OK, hopefully that help
19:26:14 <zzo38> I wonder if anyone else can help me to guess some of the BANCSTAR functions?
19:34:37 <Bike> one of t he domain-specific languages of ghost stories programmers bring up around the campfire
19:36:01 <zzo38> boily: There is a Wikipedia article about it, also linking to some other information. Based on this, I have figured out some of it, and made guesses as to some other parts of it.
19:36:52 * boily ventures and go check the wikipédia article...
19:37:24 * boily closes the tab. “I wasn't meant for looking at that.”
19:38:36 <boily> Bike: I agree with the ghost story part of that kvikkalkullike language.
19:41:37 <zzo38> You weren't meant for looking at that?
19:42:27 <boily> I try to salvage and protect my sanity from stuff like that.
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19:55:30 <oerjan> @tell tswett <tswett> There's gotta be a word for numbers that can be written as a series of rational numbers where the ratio between successive terms approaches 0. <-- my hunch is on "real" hth
19:56:33 <oerjan> although it would be a bit more interesting if it wasn't.
19:56:34 <Bike> but oerjan, e's irrationality obvious generalizes
19:56:53 <oerjan> Bike: is that all that is used in the proof of that?
19:57:25 <Bike> when nooodl tried giving a cauchy sequence for pi tswett took it as proving any real is irrational, as far as i'm reading
19:58:03 <int-e> myname: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/bah.png is a bit of a let-down though.
19:58:35 <int-e> (that's the two and gates one)
19:58:59 <oerjan> pretty sure the proof for e must use that the ratios are integers...
19:59:00 <Bike> well, i don't know if cauchy sequences and the ratio thing are equivalent, i guess
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20:00:37 <oerjan> you know _every_ real number has plenty of cauchy sequences, right
20:00:55 <oerjan> it's like, a definition of them.
20:01:46 <Bike> what i don't know is whether tswett is right, but i kind of doubt it
20:05:57 <oerjan> i suppose he might be right that it implies they're irrational, there are some approximation theorems
20:06:41 <oerjan> <tswett> Observe: 2/3 = 0.6 + 0.066 + 0.0006666 + 0.000000066666666 + ... <-- oh hm
20:06:54 <oerjan> i think he just basically disproved it there.
20:06:56 <Bike> it's just, yeah, i'm pretty sure that sums to 2/3 and has a ratio
20:07:03 <Bike> yeah but he was acting like it didn't? i don't know
20:07:20 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure he was joking about 2/3 being irrational hth
20:07:37 <Bike> well yes, i meant about nooodl's thing
20:08:45 <oerjan> @tell tswett never mind, should have read further
20:40:44 <mroman> There's also 1/2 = 1/3 + 1/9 + 1/27 ...
20:41:14 <Bike> that's a constant ratio of 3, no
20:56:31 <oerjan> well if you write 1/2 in ternary as 0.1111... and _then_ use that grouping trick, you can get something with 3^n denominators.
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21:30:22 <Bike> "To handle a molecule containing one or more cycles, one must first expand it into a tree (called a hierarchical digraph by the authors)"
21:38:26 <Quintopia> I think I've got greater trochanteric pain syndrome :(
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00:27:17 <Leb> !bfjoust loop ({<})%-1
00:27:27 <EgoBot> Score for Leb_loop: 0.0
00:44:49 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
00:45:00 <EgoBot> Score for FreeFull_Useless: 0.0
00:46:11 <Sgeo> There's a Charlie the Unicorn 4?!?
00:53:22 <Leb> !bfjoust loop ((()*-1)*-1{.}((((()*-1)*-1{.}(()*-1)*-1)%-1)*-1)*-1)%-1
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00:57:09 <MDude> There's a second one?
01:00:38 <Leb> ok, so he dealt with the first one by overflow, but nesting it means that solution is not fast enough.
01:01:11 <elliott> I see a simple solution :p
01:04:13 <Leb> yup, there is, but it's not implemented yet. Which means it's still going ( http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/breakdown.txt ), so I think that means someone needs to manually stop it before it's usable again
01:05:30 <Sgeo> Are there good languages [as an average #esoteric'er considers good languages, excluding me] that use co-operative multithreading where the points of possible loss of control are obvious?
01:12:48 <Leb> oh look, there's a simulator on http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/ . Hey, (()*-1)*-1 already takes forever. Yup, that definately needs a manual override.
01:12:58 <Leb> !bfjoust broken [
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01:14:19 <elliott> Sgeo: any language with coroutines
01:15:03 <Sgeo> elliott: but there's the kind where the yield etc. can be abstracted away behind a function call without any indication that that is the case... or is that called something else?
01:15:25 <elliott> Sgeo: so you want a language where you can't abstract?
01:15:41 <elliott> any language with coroutines and no functions or macros
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01:15:44 <Bike> wait, wait, i thought yield was usually a lexical thing
01:16:05 <elliott> of course usually something that yields will be a coroutine unto itself
01:16:14 <elliott> e.g., see Python's generators
01:17:02 <Sgeo> elliott: I want the abstraction but not the fact that it's yielding to be abstracted.... e.g. what Bike said as a requirement
01:17:15 <Sgeo> Which, Python's newer generators, Javascript generators, etc.
01:17:32 <elliott> I think a normal coroutine system satisfies your requirements if I understand them.
01:18:01 <elliott> look at, I don't know, Modula-2 or something
01:18:51 <Bike> you can do something like def foo: yield; def bar: foo()? man i haven't used python in a while
01:19:33 <elliott> Bike: def foo(): { yield None } means that foo() will be an object with a .next()
01:19:48 <elliott> (Python's syntax for this really sucks. "if you say yield in a function the whole thing is actually not the function it looks like")
01:20:03 <elliott> (it should at least be, like, "def gen foo():" or something.)
01:22:04 <Sgeo> Python used to suck worse with generators, though
01:22:26 <Sgeo> At least, I think it did, maybe I just didn't know how to abstract properly
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02:15:56 <Sgeo> elliott: what is a comment about Go doing in this?
02:15:57 <Sgeo> http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/Sgeo/morgue-Sgeo-20120422-081744.txt
02:16:32 <elliott> the real question is why you fought a D:1 gnoll, as a transmuter, with a club
02:16:46 <elliott> wow I do not remember watching this game at all
02:17:39 <Sgeo> I don't remember playing it.
02:17:44 <elliott> ...the other real question is why you're looking at the log of a D:1 game from april two years ago
02:18:03 <Sgeo> Because it was my most recent
02:26:49 <Sgeo> Dungeon level 1
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02:33:32 <MDude> It's the first floor of a building called a Dungeon.
02:38:47 <int-e> Insei, well at least that would explain the Go angle.
02:39:57 <int-e> but good night, I'll probably dream of crazy p and n gates.
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02:51:58 <Leb> back. So, someone fixed the bfjoust bot?
02:52:16 <Leb> !bfjoust broken [
02:53:36 <elliott> I don't believe it was ever broken?
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02:57:26 <Leb> !bfjoust loop (()*-1)*-1
02:58:25 <Leb> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/breakdown.txt
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03:23:18 <MDude> Fungot, perform the action which fixes bfjoust bot.
03:23:59 <Sgeo> https://github.com/joyent/node/issues/1707
03:24:17 <MDude> I again ask fungot to perform the action which fixes bfjoustbot, presuming the name is in fact case sensitive.
03:24:17 <fungot> MDude: but what did you do this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ 918
03:24:55 <MDude> Yes that lisp code must be able to fix it.
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03:51:45 <Sgeo> Apparently I am way too used to Python
03:52:11 <Sgeo> It's still annoying that var hasOwnProperty = Object.prototype.hasOwnProperty.call; itself needs .call on it
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04:09:02 <elliott> I'm surprised JS people haven't started using custom dictionary types.
04:09:07 <elliott> its objects are totally unsuited.
04:10:16 <Sgeo> There's going to be a Map type in ES6 I think
04:11:01 <Sgeo> "Key equality is based on the "same-value" algorithm: NaN is considered the same as NaN (even though NaN !== NaN) and all other values are considered equal according to the semantics of the === operator."
04:11:09 <Sgeo> So, yet another type of equality
04:16:35 <Sgeo> Anyways, I should at some point go implement my horrible hack to get do notation into Javascript
04:25:14 <elliott> float keys in a map are such a fantastic idea.
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05:46:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Warpdrive]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39777&oldid=39775 * Rdebath * (+153) No accessible infinite memory. => !TC
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06:45:11 <zzo38> I have idea, which would be, can it be done a kind of music compression (lossless, and compressing the note sequence, not the audio), such that nice classical-style music and other kind of nice music result in better compression?
06:55:13 <oerjan> <Leb> oh look, there's a simulator on http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/ . Hey, (()*-1)*-1 already takes forever. Yup, that definately needs a manual override. <-- pretty sure those don't use the same implementation.
07:06:42 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: well, something in the line of _The Complexity of Songs_ by Don Knuth?
07:07:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Warpdrive]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39778&oldid=39777 * Oerjan * (+25) that's a bit long to hide in an example
07:08:06 <oerjan> the songs of complexity
07:09:01 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: I have not heard of that.
07:29:06 <zzo38> Some C functions take a "reentrancy structure"; what is a reentrancy structure?
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07:35:03 <mroman> zzo38: joe loughry wrote back
07:35:27 <mroman> There's no official documentation of the BANCStar numerical language
07:36:06 <mroman> BANCStar was shipped with a BANCStar Generator which allowed you to create stuff
07:36:31 <mroman> however, the BANCStar Generator was not as powerful as the underlying numerical language
07:36:55 <mroman> which is why people started reverse engineering BANCSTar to be ablo to program in the numeric language to be able to do more powerful stuff
07:38:16 <mroman> He may be able to get the source code of his LIST tool he wrote back then
07:38:29 <mroman> (which appears to be some kind of "disassembler" for BANCStar)
07:38:39 <zzo38> mroman: That would be good; I would like the source code of the LIST tool if available.
07:38:47 <mroman> So you'd have to reverse engineer BANCSTar from LIST
07:38:54 <zzo38> (I knew what the LIST tool was once you mentioned it.)
07:39:53 <zzo38> And I knew that there was no documentation of the BANCStar numerical language. However, I was wondering if the screen generator or the BANCSTAR system itself had any documentation which can be made available.
07:40:27 <zzo38> More scanned pages of the program may also be helpful.
07:40:39 <diginet> are basically all compilers based on abstract syntax trees?
07:41:06 <zzo38> diginet: I don't think so
07:41:21 <diginet> zzo38: oh, really? interesting, do you know of any counterexamples?
07:42:06 <diginet> or more specifically in that case, (ignoring things like optimizations) do mostly all compilers which use ASTs work by walking the AST and "translating" the nodes from source to target language?
07:42:55 <zzo38> I don't know the answer to that. Some might do that without actually generating the AST.
07:43:29 <zzo38> (I believe SQLite does not generate the AST, although it otherwise does something similar. It compiles SQL into VDBE.)
07:44:34 <Bike> diginet: as opposed to what, operating "directly" on source text?
07:45:02 <Bike> most compiler operations don't have much to do with the syntax.
07:45:15 <diginet> Bike: I'm not sure actually, I can't really see any nice way to compile without an AST
07:45:38 <diginet> I guess the more important question is the second one
07:46:00 <zzo38> I know the OASYS compiler uses a recursive descent parser and generates the target code when the parser matches something.
07:46:32 <Bike> most of the time things aren't context-free enough for a simple "walk" to work. consider, like, that a C compiler has to remember forward declarations, that kind of thing.
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07:47:05 <mroman> Does one pass count as non-AST?
07:48:00 <mroman> I.e. you use a parser library that can call code if it matched IDENT `+=` INT SEMICOLON?
07:48:39 <zzo38> mroman: Won't a parser library generally do that, or am I missing something somehow?
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07:49:11 <zzo38> I know that yacc and Lemon can call code when matching, anyways.
07:49:59 <mroman> but Brainfuck should pretty much be compilable without a real tree
07:50:11 <zzo38> (I myself prefer Lemon; I don't know your own preferences.)
07:50:34 <zzo38> mroman: You would only need to keep track of loop nesting. You can use a stack for that, though
07:50:45 <mroman> zzo38: i would have used a stack for that, yeh
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07:51:09 <mroman> and do "jmp " ++ pop() on ]
07:51:24 <mroman> (or jiz, jnz whatever)
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07:52:20 <mroman> String replacement languages don't need a tree too I guess
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07:52:27 <mroman> you can compile them line by line
07:52:41 <mroman> and they have no "loop" other than after the last line you re-run it
07:52:56 <zzo38> Sometimes implementation of IF ... THEN and other block structures in Forth are also using the stack; it will create an empty cell and push the address when IF is compiled, and then pop it and store the current address at the popped address when THEN is compiled.
07:53:13 <mroman> and ASM probably doesn't need a tree too
07:53:47 <mroman> you just have to keep track of adresses and allocate enough space to insert jumps and adresses once you know them
07:54:52 <mroman> An assembler I wrote for my school project inserts LOAD32 R0, XXXX; JMP R0; and remembers that XXXXX has to be replaced by the address of label ZZZ
07:55:08 <mroman> and once it knows where that label is it will replace XXXX
07:56:46 <zzo38> (and ELSE does both)
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07:59:13 <mroman> I feel confident saying that not all compilers use ASTs. :)
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08:03:02 <mroman> That reminds me that I still haven't written a compiler for my language that targets x86
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09:09:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Stasis]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39779 * Rdebath * (+542) Too static ?
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09:28:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Stasis]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39780&oldid=39779 * Oerjan * (+187) Hm
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13:12:18 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
13:12:59 <EgoBot> 129 ++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+++.+++++++..+++.>++.------------.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>----. [378]
13:13:08 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
13:13:23 <scheurneus> !bf8 ++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+++.+++++++..+++.>++.------------.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>----.
13:13:35 <scheurneus> !bf32 ++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+++.+++++++..+++.>++.------------.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>----.
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13:21:59 <int-e> !bf8 ++++[>++++++++<-]>+>+[<.>[>+<-]>[<++>-]<]
13:22:02 <int-e> !bf16 ++++[>++++++++<-]>+>+[<.>[>+<-]>[<++>-]<]
13:22:36 <int-e> !bf32 ++++[>++++++++<-]>+>+[<.>[>+<-]>[<++>-]<]
13:27:30 <Melvar> Huh, so what does that mean?
13:28:42 <int-e> I was assuming brainfuck with N-bit cells.
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13:29:48 <Melvar> That was my guess as well, but it looks like no?
13:30:53 <int-e> hence "it cheats!"
13:31:31 <fizzie> Regarding the "-." output, that could well be brainfuck with N-bit cells and just . limited to 8-bit output.
13:32:13 <fizzie> A single 0xff byte is what came out both times, after all.
13:32:29 <int-e> well, what I did should have printed 8 and 16 exclamation marks, and a timeout.
13:34:23 <fizzie> Oh, a times-two loop. Yes, that's more like a proof.
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14:14:24 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for bf16!
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15:54:37 <zzo38> Don't hate BC/AD because it is not corresponding precisely to Christ's birth; October also is not the eighth month. Don't hate BC/AD because it is religious; so are the month names and day of week names.
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15:57:08 <zzo38> Well, some people do, I think...
15:57:24 <maurer> You know what's worse than BC/AD? BCD.
15:57:32 <mroman> You know what's even worse
15:57:43 <mroman> Discrimination against left-handed people
15:57:49 <zzo38> Some people like to use the terms BCE and CE, which I find to be a bit more confusing
15:58:02 <mroman> "right" also means "lawful/good/correct"
15:58:17 <mroman> that's very discriminating against left-handed people
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15:58:58 <subleq> because left-handed people are the devil?
15:59:08 <zzo38> mroman: BCE = "before common era"
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16:00:53 <fizzie> Wikipedia uses CE/BCE as a matter of policy, doesn't it?
16:02:50 <olsner> I recall reading about that
16:02:54 <zzo38> fizzie: I don't know; I think I may have seen both (and I don't really have intention to change from one to the other, unless using both set of terms causes confusion?)
16:04:04 <fizzie> Perhaps it was just a proposal; I don't want to read through the entirety of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/BCE-CE_Debate to figure out.
16:04:28 <zzo38> I found it easily by typing WP:BCE
16:05:37 <zzo38> I agree with the things mentioned at WP:BCE
16:06:15 <fizzie> The BP notation was new for me.
16:07:25 <fizzie> I vaguely remember there's an Asimov story where the year "1 AE" is "the first year of Atomic Era", corresponding to 1945 AD/CE or something.
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16:13:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BytePusher]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39781&oldid=37348 * Nucular * (+51) Added link to JsBP JavaScript VM
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16:21:20 <zzo38> Can the unary XOR in INTERCAL be used for converting a number into a Gray code?
16:25:10 <zzo38> I prefer astronomical year numbering rather than BC, AD, BCE, CE, AE, etc anyways
16:25:25 <zzo38> I think is more sensible
16:31:56 <Melvar> fizzie: IIRC Orion’s Arm numbers years from the first moon landing or something.
16:33:47 <Bike> the CE/AD argument is funny because it's like GODDAMN SECULARISTS, COUNTING FROM THE BIRTH OF JESUS
16:34:29 <nortti> actually, counting from a couple years after the bith of jesus
16:41:20 <zzo38> nortti: Yes, that is my first argument. Bike's is my second argument.
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16:51:39 <mroman> I prefer moon calendar
16:52:00 <mroman> It just makes more sense
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16:56:13 <zzo38> Use whatever calendar you want to, but Gregorian calendar is now the common one and you should know how to deal with it. (You may also deal with UNIX time)
16:57:53 <nortti> mroman: which moon calendar?
16:58:57 <zzo38> Yes, which moon calendar do you like?
17:00:10 <nortti> personally, I'd like a solar calendar of 13 months, with all but one being 28 days
17:00:22 <tswett> We should use a compromise calendar in which a month is half a lunar month plus one 24th of a solar year.
17:02:24 <tswett> Say, can every positive integer be written as a sum of distinct fractions 1/n where n is a positive integer?
17:02:41 <tswett> Yeah, it's gotta be possible.
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17:06:30 <zzo38> Yes I think it is true too
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17:08:01 <tswett> Oh shucks, the fact that R has no non-trivial field automorphisms is actually pretty easy to prove?
17:08:26 <tswett> Apparently every field automorphism of R must send positive numbers to positive numbers.
17:08:30 <zzo38> What are non-trivial field automorphisms?
17:08:40 <tswett> Field automorphisms that aren't the identity function.
17:09:36 <tswett> Why would it have to send positive numbers to positive numbers?
17:09:57 <tswett> Ooh. Because a number is positive if and only if it's a nonzero square.
17:12:07 <zzo38> In real numbers, yes I can see it must be
17:13:05 <tswett> Dang, here I was thinking that positivity wasn't really an algebraic property. But clearly it is.
17:13:30 <zzo38> Now it can be seen that it is!
17:13:40 <tswett> In the real numbers, at least.
17:13:57 <tswett> All right, let's simplify things. There are five numbers: 0, 1, 2, 3, and 4.
17:14:00 <zzo38> Yes, the property you mentioned is only for real numbers, clearly
17:14:33 <zzo38> O, so do you mean it is modulo five system?
17:14:41 <tswett> 1*1 = 1, 2*2 = 4, 3*3 = 4, and 4*4 = 1. So the positive numbers are 1 and 4.
17:14:58 <tswett> Of course, -1 = 4 and -2 = 3.
17:15:06 <tswett> So 1 and -1 are positive, while 2 and -2 are negative. Makes sense.
17:16:30 <tswett> I dunno, I think that doesn't make sense after all.
17:16:58 <zzo38> It does look a strange definition of "positive" and "negative"
17:17:20 <tswett> Okay, let's move up a bit. Seven numbers: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. 1*1 = 1, 2*2 = 4, 3*3 = 2, 4*4 = 2, 5*5 = 4, 6*6 = 1. So 1, 2, and 4 are positive. Meanwhile, -1 = 6, -2 = 5, and -4 = 3 are negative.
17:17:21 <zzo38> Although clearly it does have the properties you assert them to have in that context.
17:17:40 <tswett> I like having the property that the opposite of a positive number is negative and vice versa.
17:21:53 <tswett> The endomorphism ring of the multiplication group of Z7 is Z6. (Let's call that the "exponent ring" of Z7.)
17:22:37 <tswett> Z6 doesn't really have a multiplication group, since it has zero divisors. It has a multiplication monoid.
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17:29:25 <tswett> 'Course, Z7 has a multiplication monoid, too. Let's look at its endomorphisms.
17:30:09 <tswett> I guess the endomorphisms of the multiplication monoid are still the same. They're Z6.
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17:32:16 <tswett> How about the endomorphism ring of the multiplication monoid of Z6? Well, said monoid has identity element 1, and it's generated by 2, 3, and 5. Morphisms are fully determined by what they do to generators, aye?
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17:33:41 <tswett> Ooh, hang on. I think the multiplication monoid of Z7 actually has an extra endomorphism. There's one mapping 0 onto 0 and everything else onto 1, and one mapping everything onto 1.
17:37:43 <tswett> The former could be called 6 and the latter could be called 0. Then it's an un-quotient of Z6, where the only way to write 0 as a sum is as 0 + 0, and 0 * x is 0 for all x, and 6 * x is 6 for all non-0 x. Aye?
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17:43:28 <nooodl> <tswett> Say, can every positive integer be written as a sum of distinct fractions 1/n where n is a positive integer?
17:45:58 <b_jonas> nooodl: I think the answer is yes
17:46:15 <b_jonas> see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_fractions
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18:10:21 <zzo38> How do I get rid of the warning to cast a pointer to a integer of a different size? In this specific case, I don't care if the size of a pointer is larger or smaller or equal to the size of long long integers.
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18:22:00 <int-e> zzo38: I don't know, does casting in two steps (via size_t) help?
18:22:21 <zzo38> int-e: Yes maybe that will help
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18:46:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39782&oldid=39730 * Rdebath * (+12) /* Current brainfuck extensions to go back to. */
18:47:06 <elliott> int-e: isn't intptr_t more appropriate
18:50:43 <oerjan> <int-e> well, what I did should have printed 8 and 16 exclamation marks, and a timeout. <-- shocking
19:00:38 <nooodl> maybe it's 16-bit brainfuck but with deadfish wrapping, where 256 goes back to 0!!
19:00:39 <oerjan> tswett: psst ordering doesn't make sense in fields of non-zero characteristic hth
19:00:59 <oerjan> which includes all finite ones
19:01:36 <oerjan> nooodl: does that wrapped deadfish come with chips
19:02:47 <oerjan> @tell tswett psst ordering doesn't make sense in fields of non-zero characteristic. which includes all finite ones hth
19:03:29 <tswett> Who says I want ordering?
19:03:36 <tswett> I'm fine with the sum of two positive numbers being negative.
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19:09:06 <tswett> Ooh, great idea. Esolang where there are keywords defining program structure, but the keywords don't have to nest correctly.
19:10:46 <tswett> "if Ready then while Yellow do PokeSomething else RunAround endif EatCake endwhile"
19:11:09 <mroman> Doesn't Pascal have that?
19:11:22 <tswett> Not that I've heard of.
19:11:33 <tswett> Of course, Haskell has every possible control structure.
19:12:15 <zzo38> Haskell doesn't have any control structures; you can make it up instead, out of computable mathematics.
19:14:52 <tromp__> i'd say Haskell only has case ... of ... as control structure
19:14:55 <Bike> scheme doesn't have any control structures, you can make them yourself out of call/cc, lambdas, and arrogance
19:14:56 <nooodl> for case ... of { True -> ...; False -> ... }?
19:15:30 <oerjan> `addquote <Bike> scheme doesn't have any control structures, you can make them yourself out of call/cc, lambdas, and arrogance
19:15:33 <HackEgo> 1205) <Bike> scheme doesn't have any control structures, you can make them yourself out of call/cc, lambdas, and arrogance
19:15:47 <shachaf> case-of is totally a control structure
19:16:31 <nooodl> i should figure out call/cc
19:16:36 <tswett> Case statements are definitely syntactic sugar.
19:16:55 <nooodl> it's really scary?? also the Cont monad
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19:17:33 <shachaf> nooodl: Cont seems less scary
19:18:11 <tswett> I think when I was playing with linear logic, I found that Cont, State, and Store are three vertices of a square.
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19:18:48 <zzo38> tswett: How does that work?
19:19:04 <tswett> State s a = s -> (s, a) and Store s a = (s, s -> a). So clearly there's a dual relationship there.
19:19:10 <tswett> Just swap the (s,) and the (s ->).
19:20:41 <tswett> Now, Cont s a = (a -> s) -> s. Using ~ to represent the dual operator and | to represent the par operator, (a -> s) -> s = ~(a -> s) | s = ~(~a | s) | s = (~~a, ~s) | s = (a, ~s) | s.
19:21:22 <tswett> Note that if you swap s and ~s, this becomes (a, s) | ~s = ~s | (a, s) = s -> (a, s), which is State.
19:21:34 <tswett> So Cont and State are also in a certain dual relationship.
19:22:03 <tswett> The fourth corner of the square is (~s, ~s -> a) or (~s, s | a).
19:22:24 <oerjan> i think State and Store are dual because they both arise from the same adjoint functors, but composed in opposite order. this is only possible because those functors are from Hask to itself. (at least this analogy works for Set.)
19:22:40 <tswett> oerjan: right. The same is true of Cont and this fourth corner, I believe.
19:23:11 <tswett> With State and Store, the functors are (s ->) and (s,). With Cont and the fourth corner, the corners are (s |) and (~s,).
19:23:30 <nooodl> okay Cont isn't very scary
19:23:34 <tswett> Of course, neither of those can be interpreted in Hask any more. I think.
19:23:38 <oerjan> with Cont the functors are being Hask and Hask^op, iirc
19:23:53 <oerjan> and so Cont is actually _self_-dual.
19:24:17 <nooodl> callCC isn't very scary either?? the yin-yang puzzle still is
19:24:21 <tswett> According to my linear logic, the dual of Cont is something other than Cont.
19:24:33 <oerjan> the dual is a comonad on Hask^op, which is a monad on Hask, which is Cont itself.
19:25:04 <tswett> It's not instantly obvious to me why the dual is a comonad on Hask^op.
19:25:33 <tswett> oerjan: can you tell me what the functors between Hask and Hask^op are?
19:25:35 <oerjan> tswett: when you have adjoint functors between categories A and B, you get a monad on A and a comonad on B.
19:25:46 <zzo38> I believe yin-yang is also implemented as one of the Unlambda example programs
19:26:06 <oerjan> i am not sure about that comonad part
19:26:25 <oerjan> this is all very vaguely recalled
19:26:34 <tswett> But do you remember what functors Cont decomposes into?
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19:27:15 <oerjan> Cont r a = Cont ((a -> r) -> r), the functors are both (a -> r)
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19:28:26 <tswett> Then what I'm doing is a different decomposition of what's really a different monad that I'm writing the same way for the sake of confusion.
19:30:26 <tswett> But my monad could also be decomposed your way.
19:30:33 <tswett> But my decomposition is into covariant functors.
19:31:09 <tswett> Of course, I'm using linear logic operators, meaning my decomposition has to be interpreted in a...
19:31:14 <tswett> One of those categories you can interpret linear logic in.
19:31:16 <oerjan> maybe linear logic is its own opposite category or something...
19:31:50 <tswett> A symmetric monoidal category ATWP.
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19:32:14 <tswett> According to Wikipedia.
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19:32:38 <zzo38> Monad can also be made from Free, Codensity, CodensityAsk, etc, for example Cont r = Codensity (Const r) and Either x = CodensityAsk (Traced x) and so on.
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19:33:09 <zzo38> And also, [] = Codensity Endo
19:33:13 <tswett> Unfortunately, I don't know what Codensity, Const, CodensityAsk, and Traced are.
19:33:15 <oerjan> `` echo According to Wikipedia, ATWP means nothing. >wisdom/atwp
19:33:50 <zzo38> tswett: Then you must learn.
19:34:15 <oerjan> i suppose that's not entirely true.
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19:34:53 <oerjan> but air transport white paper doesn't have its own article, at least.
19:35:39 <zzo38> There is also Co, which can make a monad (or a monad transformer) from a comonad.
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19:40:02 <oerjan> scott aaronson about being interviewed about that turing test thing "Luckily, while an experienced judge could easily distinguish me from an AI researcher, I only needed to simulate one for a few minutes of banter."
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20:27:15 <int-e> elliott: funny, I was going to suggest intptr_t myself but then got distracted while looking for whether the C standard actually has that type. (C99 does, as an optional type in stdint.h)
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20:45:40 <Leb> !bfjoust is-it-fixed? (.)*-1
20:50:11 <elliott> it's not going to be fixed unless you ping Gregor.
20:51:26 <Leb> !bfjoust breakdown-says-parsing-error-on-program-not-on-report (.)*-1
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20:56:13 <Leb> I don't understand how the hill works. The Egobot source link gives error 500, so that's no help.
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20:56:45 <zzo38> Then Gregor should fix that probably
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21:05:33 <fizzie> Out of curiosity, does it do any good if you replace Leb_broken with something that's not broken?
21:06:26 <oerjan> fizzie: i bet you could fix it, right?
21:06:34 <fizzie> I don't know anything about it.
21:06:59 <oerjan> oh wait it's EgoBot not HackEgo. are they on the same host?
21:07:09 <fizzie> That didn't stop me from fixing HackEgo that one time, but still. The web parts at least don't run on the machine I can access, as far as I know.
21:07:41 <fizzie> And apparently the bot isn't, either.
21:07:43 <oerjan> well but !bfjoust itself is not giving any response.
21:08:36 <Leb> it is generating the breakdown, just not answering back on irc
21:09:43 <fizzie> Based on few /whoises, EgoBot is on the same box with glogbot, which is a different one than HackEgo and the wiki.
21:10:09 <fizzie> So I don't think I can be of any help.
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21:11:29 <Leb> oh, my "loop" is still in "in_egobot", so maybe it's getting locked there.
21:12:45 <fizzie> I was under the impression that was fixed.
21:13:12 <fizzie> At least, it is fixed in newer versions of the foolance code, but maybe the hill hasn't been updated.
21:13:51 <fizzie> (Newer ones remove loops that take no cycles.)
21:14:14 <fizzie> You can (probably) overwrite your "loop" by resubmitting something else.
21:14:37 <fizzie> With the same name, I mean.
21:15:56 <Taneb> Engaging in a bit of Pair Programming yay
21:16:03 <Taneb> Enterprise, agile, what have you
21:16:21 <fizzie> Getting all scrummy, eh?
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21:17:07 <tswett_> I should totally implement object-oriented programming in Coq.
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21:18:50 <Taneb> tswett_, yes you should
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21:22:15 <tswett_> A class is simply a "state" type along with a directed acyclic graph of methods, where each method is a function taking the state and all methods pointing at it and some parameters and returning the new state and the return value.
21:23:27 <tswett_> Subclassing just means creating a new class that happens to implement the interface of the old class.
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21:33:40 <Leb> !bfjoust loop lets see if this fixes it.
21:33:45 <EgoBot> Score for Leb_is-it-fixed_: 5.7
21:33:45 <EgoBot> Score for Leb_broken: 0.0
21:33:46 <EgoBot> Score for Leb_breakdown-says-parsing-error-on-program-not-on-report: 5.7
21:33:46 <EgoBot> Score for Leb_loop: 5.7
21:33:46 <EgoBot> Score for Leb_broken: 0.0
21:33:46 <EgoBot> Score for Leb_loop: 5.7
21:33:46 <EgoBot> Score for Leb_loop: 5.7
21:33:47 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_wat: 0.0
21:34:16 <oerjan> well that was efficient.
21:35:33 <Leb> !bfjoust clear-the-breakdown-please .
21:35:36 <EgoBot> Score for Leb_clear-the-breakdown-please: 6.1
21:36:27 <tswett_> OOP is silly and shouldn't be implemented in Coq.
21:36:33 <fizzie> The "loop problem" has been fixed since Mar 23, 2013; the running code could really do with an update.
21:37:07 <oerjan> fizzie: right after Gregor updates to Quintopia's scoring method, i take.
21:37:27 <tswett_> So, what's the best syntax for multi-line comments? Is it {- -}? Is it (* *)? Is it <!-- -->?
21:37:58 <oerjan> tswett_: -- (comment here) (more comment here) hth
21:38:21 <tswett_> oerjan: the good ol' "pound sign on every line" multi-line comment syntax?
21:38:38 <oerjan> tswett_: what pound sign
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21:40:04 <oerjan> but no. there's only a -- at the beginning, followed by as many multi-line parenthesized (with correct nesting) comments as you want.
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21:40:13 <metasepia> The "CYUL" ICAO airport code corresponds to MontralPierre Elliott Trudeau International Airport in Dorval, Quebec, Canada and the IATA code is "YUL."
21:40:25 <fungot> boily: and you can't tell the difference via text.
21:40:39 <metasepia> CYUL 092100Z 36008G15KT 30SM FEW060 FEW120 SCT240 27/12 A2993 RMK SC1AC1CI3 SC TR AC TR SLP134 DENSITY ALT 1500FT
21:40:52 <boily> my brain. it is overheating.
21:40:59 <metasepia> ENVA 092120Z 01003KT 9999 FEW020 13/10 Q1023 RMK WIND 670FT 30004KT
21:41:01 <boily> just did one sunny bike ride.
21:41:22 <boily> TIL under natural sunlight, I can't tell the difference between a duck.
21:42:19 * tswett_ reads a paper about two-dimensional programming languages.
21:42:23 <elliott> boily: thank you for that ping.
21:42:29 -!- oerjan has set topic: Please don't mind boily, he has a sun stroke | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
21:43:14 <boily> elliott: oh hi! :D
21:43:38 <boily> nortti: you know, one leg is both the same.
21:43:55 -!- oerjan has set topic: Please don't mind boily, he has a sun stroke and is not insane at all | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
21:44:54 <tswett_> This paper was published in 1972.
21:44:56 <tswett_> I hope it's still relevant.
21:45:08 <Bike> several people published in 1972 are still relevant
21:46:07 <tswett_> When boily says he did a "bike ride", does he mean he was riding a bike or he was riding Bike?
21:46:26 <oerjan> also, my ability to guess which english compounds are written in one word fails again
21:47:27 <boily> tswett_: I haven't ever physically seen any #esotëric member, except Roujo. I haven't mailed any member, except Quintopia. Bike is quite far from here.
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21:49:42 <tswett_> So, it's not all too obvious how two-dimensional syntaxes would be defined.
21:50:13 <Taneb> You'd need two-dimensional lexical tokens
21:50:21 <Taneb> Lexical jigsaw puzzle pieces
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21:51:39 <tswett_> Okay. I'm thinking that the notion of a string would be replaced by the notion of a box. Concatenation would be replaced by juxtaposition.
21:51:47 <tswett_> Whitespace outside of tokens would always be considered insignificant.
21:51:54 <zzo38> I also don't know how would you make a two-dimensional tokenizer?
21:52:08 <tswett_> I.e. a box juxtaposed with a blank box is equivalent to the original box.
21:52:19 <Bike> i believe that is the topic of a good amount of computer vision :p
21:52:23 <boily> zzo38: bilinear interpolation?
21:52:42 <tswett_> We get ambiguity pretty quickly.
21:53:10 <tswett_> Suppose you have an "a" in the upper left and a "b" in the upper right. Is that an "a" box above a "b" box or an "a" box to the left of a "b" box?
21:54:27 <Bike> ~math problems~
21:54:27 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
21:55:24 <Bike> ~echo punk motherfucker with a badge and a gun
21:55:24 <metasepia> punk motherfucker with a badge and a gun
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21:58:33 <nortti> you might want to fix that
21:58:41 <boily> in the next version!
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21:58:53 <boily> (you know, the one that is coming real soon now >_>...)
21:59:07 <nortti> otherwise, this would be bad: ^echo ~echo ^echo
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21:59:11 <tswett_> Dare I say ^echo ~echo ^echo?
21:59:40 <tswett_> ^echo Like, I assume fungot just says whatever twice?
21:59:40 <fungot> Like, I assume fungot just says whatever twice? Like, I assume fungot just says whatever twice?
22:00:16 <tswett_> I'm not going to say ^echo ~echo ^echo, then.
22:00:20 <shachaf> @where+ test ~echo @run 123
22:00:49 <tswett_> But I'd like to see someone else try it.
22:01:14 <shachaf> @where+ test ~echo @where test
22:01:14 <lambdabot> It is forever etched in my memory.
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22:01:53 <fungot> ~echo ^echo ~echo ^echo
22:01:54 -!- tswett_ has joined.
22:02:08 <Taneb> nortti, fungot has an ignore list
22:02:12 <tswett_> My Internet connection isn't working that well.
22:02:15 <tswett_> I guess I should get a job so I can move out and have wired Internet.
22:02:48 <tswett_> I'm totally disappointed by how nobody is saying ^echo ~echo ^echo.
22:02:55 <fungot> ~echo ^echo ~echo ^echo
22:03:06 <nortti> 01:02 < tswett_> I'm totally disappointed by how nobody is saying ^echo ~echo ^echo. <-- 01:01 < nortti> ^echo ~echo ^echo
22:03:10 <boily> nortti said it first, but you were in a disappeared state.
22:03:40 <nortti> had forgotten to account for fungot's better bot-ignoring
22:03:41 <fungot> nortti: fun, but it seems like it gives me t too with the others
22:04:01 <nortti> fungot: yes, that's why it is called the whole alphabet
22:04:01 <fungot> nortti: i'm using 203, and want the fnord formatting
22:04:01 <tswett_> LA PREGUNTA ES: why didn't fungot obey the second command, exactly?
22:04:02 <fungot> tswett_: it works flawlessly on powerpc slackware ( fnord). not sure what difference that would have given: roma, turt, iipc, trds, imap or mode
22:05:29 * boily appends a chocolate chip cookie to fungot
22:05:30 <fungot> boily: when emacs is rewritten? i thought about
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22:16:04 <oerjan> tswett_: metasepia is on fungot's ignore list.
22:16:04 <fungot> oerjan: since they didn't have methods?' en osaa mihin muotoon pitää laittaa be late
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23:25:39 <zzo38> I wrote a C library to parse ZCDSF now, although it still contains a few mistakes.
23:26:36 <zzo38> shachaf: It is documented at http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/zcdsf.txt
23:29:04 <zzo38> (The name was suggested by someone else; I abbreviated it.)
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23:31:58 <Quintopia> please do tell what was going on with egobot
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23:37:20 <Leb> the bfjoust thing? I sent (()*-1)*-1
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23:42:17 <Quintopia> fizzie corrected and submitted to gregor a fix to gearlance
23:43:14 <Quintopia> let's all go to gregor's house and sleep on his couch and floor until he fixes it
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00:41:47 <zzo38> Why do Google's HTTP servers have a lot of protocol violations?
00:49:04 <zzo38> I doubt it has anything to do with me
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01:03:12 <Sgeo> zzo38: because lots of people don't follow protocols, sometimes because they can't, because of other people not following protocols
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01:24:51 <zzo38> Can you please help me? Is ZCDSF even LALR(1)?
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01:27:01 <zzo38> The compiler says there aren't any conflicts, but it still doesn't work.
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01:32:39 <zzo38> Actually I may have found one of the mistakes; probably many of the mistakes I made are in the tokenizer instead of in the parser.
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01:33:32 <zzo38> The tokenizer was deleting some semicolons that shouldn't be deleted.
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01:36:41 <zzo38> I think it works now.
01:38:11 <zzo38> Macros still have a few problems.
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01:48:28 <zzo38> OK I fixed it. I accidentally put a minus sign instead of equal sign and that caused a problem
02:05:51 <Sgeo> I love working at 1:15AM!
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02:26:41 <zzo38> Now I made it: http://zzo38computer.org/prog/zcdsflib.zip
02:27:43 <zzo38> Please look in the file called "zcdsflib.h" for the list of API functions.
02:28:30 <zzo38> Do you think this is good?
02:30:52 <zzo38> It isn't quite perfect.
02:31:18 <zzo38> It isn't secure either.
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03:41:29 <zzo38> A music tracker software I would think, it would help to have three more windows: SQL window, MML compiler window, and synthesizer window. Do you know of such a software, which can also make/edit/play a .MOD and .S3M and .IT and .XM formats?
03:42:47 <zzo38> Also even such format as .MOD and so on you cannot enable multiple effects at once
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03:52:45 <tswett> So I'm pretty sure that a while back, in this channel, someone mentioned "coffee with butter in".
03:53:56 <tswett> I mentioned that that sounded wrong to me; you'd have to say "coffee with butter in it".
03:54:15 <tswett> Whereas it's perfectly fine to say e.g. "a gun with bullets in".
03:54:23 <tswett> I now think I know the answer to that question.
03:54:42 <Bike> "slightly different dialect"
03:54:44 <tswett> The answer is that something is only "in" if it operates by being inside of whatever it's inside of. Otherwise, it has to be "in it".
03:55:06 <tswett> Bullets operate by being inside of guns. Butter does not operate by being inside of coffee.
03:55:32 <Bike> have you ever heard the term "post-hoc"
03:56:02 <tswett> As in post-hoc analysis?
03:56:45 <tswett> Sure. It's hard to do analysis without already having some data.
03:58:28 <Bike> well the implication is you just make something up after the fact.
03:58:47 <tswett> Well, I tried to come up with a simple hypothesis that fit the data well.
03:58:52 <Bike> without much real possibility that it's the cause (for instance: why does this matter to americans and not to brits)
03:59:29 <Bike> cos you keep doing this and you're gonna end up thinking "fuck" is an initialism, you know?
04:00:44 <tswett> Also, I haven't yet thought of a counterexample or an alternative hypothesis that seems to work better.
04:01:10 <Bike> quirk of history assisted by geographic separations
04:03:07 <Jafet> Have you ever used a gun
04:03:41 <tswett> Bike: you realize that you're not actually contradicting what I said?
04:03:46 <tswett> Jafet: yes, but not a bullet gun.
04:03:55 <Bike> mine is an alternative hypothesis.
04:04:24 <Bike> i haven't used a gun, but i have concluded that they work by magnetic acceleration, cos that's how i'd make one.
04:04:29 <tswett> My hypothesis is a hypothesis about what the rule is for me personally. Your hypothesis is a hypothesis about why it's that way.
04:05:21 <tswett> (I ain't never used none of them BULLET GUNS.)
04:05:31 <Bike> why would you do that to a bicycle jafet
04:06:14 <Jafet> You can't put artillery on a unicycle, man, it would fall over.
04:06:35 <tswett> Bicycle artillery. What a great idea.
04:07:08 <Bike> have the artillery fire in both ways simultaneously
04:07:35 <tswett> Is there a word for a gun that isn't a firearm?
04:07:45 <Jafet> Of course, that never stopped the Dresden Unicycle Military Branch's firing uni cyclist kooks.
04:10:27 <zzo38> Are tracker music formats supposed to be deliberately difficult to work with?
04:10:33 <zzo38> It seems like it to me.
04:14:20 <Bike> zzo38: it's a well known fact that leonardo davinci wrote his chiptunes backwards to confuse thieves.
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07:08:41 <kmc> fungots fall on fungot falls
07:08:41 <fungot> kmc: or not. i didn't write down who said that
07:10:41 <oerjan> fungot: apparently, godspeed you black emperor hth
07:10:41 <fungot> oerjan: strike the " for"
07:10:55 <oerjan> fungot: already did hth
07:10:55 <fungot> oerjan: this means that whatever the 2nd interpreter does added to the hashtable i have the patch?
07:11:24 <oerjan> fungot: i don't know, show me the code
07:11:24 <fungot> oerjan: my fnord have fnord of code improvement are applicable to many languages
07:11:38 <oerjan> fungot: i think that got censored hth
07:11:39 <fungot> oerjan: i did?) has no support for processes.
07:14:11 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2
07:14:26 <oerjan> i don't think it has that command
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08:05:09 <mroman> zzo38: Loughry pushed some new stuff
08:05:15 <mroman> He pushed more source code and the LIST source code too
08:05:26 <mroman> https://github.com/jloughry/BANCStar/blob/master/MM1SM1.SCN
08:05:36 <mroman> https://github.com/jloughry/BANCStar/tree/master/LIST/src/
08:05:40 <mroman> ^- that's the LIST source
08:06:04 <zzo38> OK now let me to see it
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08:07:41 <mroman> He also found a PDF that documents opcodes
08:07:52 <mroman> although "documents"... :D
08:07:57 <mroman> it lists them at least :D
08:10:33 <zzo38> What do the asterisks on the left side means?
08:11:38 <zzo38> Some of these things I have already guessed a bit from the other printouts and examples
08:12:39 <zzo38> Whoever printed it out forgot to compensate for the holes
08:15:20 <mroman> 10000 - 12000 are "Arithmetic Commands"
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08:15:50 <mroman> Still very little information :)
08:16:36 <zzo38> Yes, although from looking at the printout, a few more things can be figured out about that.
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08:17:15 <zzo38> I already figured that 10000 and so on are used for direct assignment, and low numbered commands are prompts, from what was available before.
08:17:36 <zzo38> From looking at printout a few more things about how this "arithmetic commands" can be figured out.
08:19:54 <zzo38> For example, the three operands to "arithmetic commands" seem to be the values to add or otherwise do, where you have to multiply by ten and add two. A number 1 to 2000 is a variable, or you can add 2200 for a literal number (I don't know why it is 2200).
08:21:03 <zzo38> But for comparisons, there is no "multiply by ten", and you instead add ten thousand for a numeric literal, or thirty thousand for a character literal.
08:22:10 <zzo38> (I don't know what happens if you add twenty thousand.)
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08:24:38 <zzo38> The ones digit of the arithmetic operands seems to be 2 for addition and 6 for substrings; I don't know what 5 means.
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08:24:49 <oerjan> Quintopia: graph the number of graphs that don't graph themselves hth
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08:33:49 <zzo38> OK, now I see arithmetic operator 4 is division
08:35:43 <zzo38> From the context, it seems that command 3100 might mean that it is an error if the condition is false; rewind and tell the user to try again.
08:38:24 <zzo38> It is now clear from the arrows that 3001 command block does not nest, and just combines conditions using a "and" operation; I have already guessed this from the part of the program that "only ten people can read", and now I have confirmed it.
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08:41:57 -!- oerjan has set topic: Turning BANCStar up to eleven | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
08:49:30 <zzo38> I am guessing that the last value in the prompt commands is the position on the screen which it is displayed.
08:49:55 <zzo38> And it is in row/column format
08:50:04 <zzo38> Where the row is multiplied by one hundred
08:52:03 <zzo38> It is in format: variable,help-position,response-length,field-position is my currently guess
08:53:03 <zzo38> I don't know why some of them use negative numbers though. Probably that means something too.
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08:58:43 <mroman> zzo38: He alos pushed 58 pages of annotated source code :)
08:58:51 <mroman> https://github.com/jloughry/BANCStar/blob/master/LIST/doc/C16LNAPP.SCN_LIST_report.pdf
08:59:44 <mroman> which also includes some "Screenshots" of the GUI at the end
09:00:20 <mroman> or at least what his tool generated
09:01:02 <mroman> zzo38: He also found a copy of the actual software
09:01:18 <mroman> which he tries to recover
09:01:26 <mroman> let's hope the floppy disk isn't too much damaged.
09:02:32 <zzo38> Yes, I am looking at those annotated codes now
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09:22:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: is this about BANCStar still?
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09:27:08 <b_jonas> Is the first number in a BANCStar line always the opcode?
09:29:04 <zzo38> b_jonas: I think so
09:29:43 <zzo38> Although the opcode also includes the number of the variable to manipulate, if applicable.
09:29:44 <b_jonas> I'll make an entry on the eso wiki for BANCStar
09:33:55 <oerjan> i vaguely recall BANCStar being removed because someone insisted it's not esoteric. not sure it was the wiki, though.
09:34:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39783 * B jonas * (+730) Created page with "'''BANCStar''' is a language that was used in production in finance in the 1990s, even though it looks like an esoteric language. Each line in a BANCStar program is four op..."
09:35:16 <zzo38> There is the prehistory of esolangs page, as well as some people wanting "honorary esolangs" too; however, it is unsure how to organize such thing within the wiki, and furthermore in a few cases it may be disagreed of what counts.
09:35:43 <b_jonas> meh, if you don't like honorary esolangs, just add a category for them or something
09:35:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39784&oldid=39737 * B jonas * (+15)
09:36:30 <zzo38> I myself am OK with it (and agree with you to make it separate category), but perhaps we can decide which way best.
09:37:08 <b_jonas> sure, just delete it if you decide there's no place for it
09:37:27 <b_jonas> and add Haskell and C++ etc if you decide you want honorary esolangs or something
09:38:03 <zzo38> I wouldn't consider to add those, but that is what I say, it may be disagreed of what counts.
09:38:45 <b_jonas> More seriously, I wouldn't bother to add stuff like Haskell or C++ or TeX or metafont etc, because there's already lots of information about those everywhere on the internet.
09:38:48 <oerjan> b_jonas: i think the prospect that people will start adding things like haskell and c++ is a reason why we've avoided it...
09:39:08 <b_jonas> But if you're actually studying BANCStar here, then it deserves a place on the eso wiki.
09:39:41 <b_jonas> oerjan: if someone does want to bother, I don't feel a problem with adding C++, as long as it's not seriously misrepresented
09:39:56 <b_jonas> like, don't claim that it's not used in production or that it was intended as an esolang originally
09:40:47 <b_jonas> should BANCStar go into bounded storage languages, or have you found a way to address arrays?
09:40:59 <zzo38> Note of things like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_esoteric_programming_languages existing, as well as some things on user subpages such as http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ian/Computer_architectures
09:41:46 <zzo38> b_jonas: There are "tables", but I don't know how they work. Probably it is bounded storage but of course I don't know; only things we can do for now is to makes guesses
09:42:12 <zzo38> I believe that the Special:Random will never select a user page
09:42:59 <b_jonas> never mind, it's not like bounded storage really means much in a language implemented in a computer
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09:45:54 <zzo38> I think pages can also be moved between name spaces if that help
09:48:30 <elliott> I would delete [[Perl]] if oerjan didn't make it mildly amusing
09:49:24 <zzo38> Yes I think that Perl article is good the way it is written, for being on esolang wiki
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09:51:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Perl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39785&oldid=37512 * B jonas * (+26)
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09:51:50 <elliott> b_jonas: that category is for esoteric languages only, I think
09:51:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Perl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39786&oldid=39785 * B jonas * (+54)
09:52:09 <elliott> I guess it's not a subcat of Languages
09:52:20 <b_jonas> there should probably be a cateogry for non-esoteric languages
09:52:34 <elliott> but Implemented and TC should maybe be reserved for esoteric-only, I think.
09:52:42 <zzo38> Or probably one for honorary esolang, at least
09:52:51 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, probably those two should at least
09:53:16 <mroman> looks like you can have 501 pages
09:53:35 <mroman> I assume 0 isn't a "legal" page
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09:53:54 <mroman> values > 501 are function keys
09:54:07 <zzo38> (There may sometimes be reasons why you might have TC on other things too but I don't think of any right now. But I agree that Implemented probably only for (non-honorary) esolangs)
09:54:12 <b_jonas> as for BANCStar, the strange part is why they didn't use at least an assembler for handling the code labels and variables
09:54:31 <zzo38> b_jonas: I was thinking about quite the same kind of things
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09:54:55 <b_jonas> such an assembler could probably be made compatible with existing code
09:54:57 <zzo38> An assembler (supporting a superset of the existing syntax) could be done.
09:55:11 <b_jonas> (at least not less compatible than writing raw code)
09:55:12 <zzo38> I could do it if I knew enough about it!
09:55:25 <mroman> L_COMMTS.C is probably going to be most helpful
09:55:32 <b_jonas> but I probably have a strange idea about these kinds of things:
09:55:59 <mroman> 8500 with M3 40XX is like pressing the corresponding key o_O
09:56:42 <b_jonas> back when we had to write the same homework in two languages, I wrote a translator from a language that had the intersection of their features, and then when that worked fine, I ran out of time and couldn't write the actual program to work well
09:56:44 <mroman> you can even execute DOS commands apparentely
09:57:10 <b_jonas> and even now I probably care too much about the tools
09:57:23 <zzo38> mromas: Yes I saw that.
09:58:11 <b_jonas> is this BANCStar system connected to a database or network or printer or something?
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09:58:30 <mroman> zzo38: Did you look at the arithmetic commands
09:58:30 <zzo38> b_jonas: I would guess, all three, probably.
09:58:42 <mroman> but it looks like there's -+*/
09:59:04 <zzo38> mroman: I have looked at the scanned listing file, and figure out some of how it works, as I have described above.
09:59:23 <zzo38> I didn't finished looking at all of them yet, though.
09:59:53 <mroman> Values under 2000 are prompts
10:00:12 <b_jonas> how are you reverse engineering this? from those printouts only? or do you have access to an implementation (not necessarily in working condition)?
10:00:13 <zzo38> mroman: Yes I figured out that already.
10:00:15 <mroman> which means if the operand_2 is 1000 it will show the user a prompt with the text stored in 1000?
10:00:25 <zzo38> b_jonas: From those printouts only.
10:00:40 <mroman> b_jonas: We might get access to an implementation
10:00:52 <mroman> depends on whether JLoughry can read the floppy disk he found
10:01:21 <zzo38> Even from just the two pages that were originally scanned, and the information that was released when they wrote about the program that only ten people can read it, I could figure out a lot of things.
10:01:34 <zzo38> Although a lot of it, just being guesses.
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10:02:04 <mroman> zzo38: Out of curiousity: Do you plan to implement BANCStar?
10:02:10 <mroman> Or why did you start reverse engineering it?
10:04:03 <zzo38> mroman: Just to figure it out, because figure out that kind of stuff interests me a bit.
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10:20:45 <FireFly> zzo38: have you documented what you've figured out so far in a file or something?
10:29:44 <FireFly> The thing doing the printing seems to print "variable" numbers emboldened. I wonder if that has any semantic meaning or is just a pretty-printing thing
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10:40:27 <b_jonas> FireFly: probably no semantic meaning, for http://reocities.com/ResearchTriangle/station/2266/tarpit/bancstar.html
10:40:37 <b_jonas> says "The only legal characters in a BANCStar program are the digits 0 through 9, comma, minus sign, and carriage return. Blank lines are not allowed. If a "." appears anywhere in the file, the compiler will crash."
10:43:04 <boily> the compiler. crashes. on a fungotting period. I refuse to believe that.
10:43:04 <fungot> boily: hey would fnord be fun to watch him argue with a native fnord.
10:43:25 <boily> fungot: there are multiple kinds of fnords?
10:43:25 <fungot> boily: if you consider that i stated only what i need is to override a specific procedure and then re-export everything else the way it is
10:43:52 <b_jonas> Dies this really have a compiler? I totally thought this was some interpreter that interprets the array of fours of integers.
10:47:30 <mroman> b_jonas: It has a "Screen Generator"
10:47:48 <mroman> Which I think allowed you to create Forms WYSYWG style?
10:48:23 <mroman> there was a program at least that allowed to to create stuff which was translated to BANCStar language that was interpreted by some sort of VM
10:48:41 <oerjan> boily: what's so strange about that, after all it's just the compiler coming to a full stop
10:48:48 <mroman> but as he said, that Screen Generator wasn't powerful enough so they started reverse engineering the VM
10:49:05 <mroman> and program directly in it instead of using the screen generator
10:49:26 <mroman> as I understand it it was never meant to be programmed in it directly which is why there's no official documentation of it
10:49:38 <mroman> which is weird because... I mean
10:49:44 <mroman> If you program a VM you document it, right?
10:50:02 <mroman> zzo38: Who actually wrote the BANCStar "VM"?
10:50:44 <b_jonas> mroman: but I meant about that statement that the "compiler crashes" if it meets a full stop in the barnstar numbers
10:51:54 <mroman> That's a good question
10:52:32 <mroman> "We developed some in-house tools for programming large applications in BANCStar, and at one point attempted to interest Broadway & Seymour in them, but I think they never really believed us, that we were writing directly to their internal, low-level, undocumented machine code."
10:53:11 <mroman> Why would Broadway & Seymour create a VM and not document it's machine code
10:53:24 <mroman> and why wouldn't the programmers just ask them for a documentation
10:53:30 <mroman> this is all really really creepy
10:53:41 <b_jonas> mroman: because it's supposed to be an internal form for the screne generator program
10:53:43 <oerjan> mroman: manifest destiny hth
10:54:00 <b_jonas> mroman: IMO, the people that started to misuse it and write the internal form directly without proper tools are to blame
10:54:07 <mroman> But how will you write the Screen Generator without documentation of the VM it's supposed to target?
10:54:19 <b_jonas> mroman: yes. this was before 1990
10:54:27 <b_jonas> mroman: don't try to think of it like you're in 2014
10:54:39 <mroman> it's like you wrote a VM, then a "Compiler"/"Generator" that targets said VM
10:54:43 <mroman> but you never documented the freaking VM?
10:55:07 <mroman> Good luck maintaining that compiler then
10:55:08 <FireFly> Maybe they documented it with pen and paper
10:55:10 <b_jonas> yes, or maybe they documented it internally, but never released the docs about that with their proprietary screen generator software
10:55:32 <b_jonas> maybe there's documentation in the source code for their screen generator or something
10:55:43 <mroman> b_jonas: I understand that they did not release the docs if you weren't supposed to program in it
10:55:52 <mroman> but once you KNOW that people really program in it
10:56:00 <mroman> that's the point I would release the documentation
10:56:09 <mroman> possibly even *sell* the documentation to earn more money
10:56:29 <mroman> instead of saying "Well, you guys just reverse engineer it. I don't care. I won't help you."
10:56:41 <b_jonas> mroman: probably those docs were not in a releasable state
10:57:04 <mroman> but for gods sake they reverse engineered it :)
10:57:07 <b_jonas> and come on, if you were the developer and someone told you thye want to develop right for that internal language, wouldn't you just LAUGH AT THEM?
10:57:11 <mroman> even a not so good doc is better than nothing.
10:57:17 <b_jonas> those people deserve not to have the docs
10:57:22 <mroman> b_jonas: I would laugh
10:57:33 <mroman> but I'm pretty sure I'd send them the docs I have
10:57:38 <FireFly> I'm a bit scared that stuff like this was actually powering banks
10:57:44 <mroman> not for free probably but I'd sell them
10:58:16 <mroman> Like "well, you're not supposed to do that but for 1000$ bucks I'll give you the documentation"
10:58:27 <b_jonas> FireFly: have you looked at the scanned screenshots on github? it probably just powered credit application form printout stuff, not real banking programs
10:58:28 <mroman> It's not really my problem if they program in the internal language
10:58:41 <mroman> other than this means that my screen generator is crap :D
10:58:47 <FireFly> b_jonas: yeah, I'm reading it currently
10:59:16 <mroman> so I would laugh at first, then realize that my product is apparentely so crappy, they started reverse engineering undocumented stuff and that'd make me sad
11:00:10 <b_jonas> mroman: again, this was before 1990. think of it like that. you didn't have infinite computing resources back then.
11:00:32 <b_jonas> reverse engineering random programs from a floppy was sort of the norm at that time
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11:08:21 <FireFly> zzo38: operand fields ≥2200 seem to be constants, and the least significant digit of each operand seems to determine the operation somehow
11:10:03 <b_jonas> what's the highest magnitude number that appears in the source?
11:11:47 <FireFly> Dunno, but e.g. here a parameter is 25652, which, if I'm guessing correctly, corresponds to the constant value 365 and the operation 2 (addition or concat or something)
11:12:29 <FireFly> There are probably bigger numbers though, a scanned-in pdf isn't easy to search
11:13:49 <FireFly> At least this seems to use ASCII
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11:17:54 <oerjan> well that's the right order of magnitude for a -32768 .. 32767 range
11:23:49 <mroman> FireFly: >= 2200 && <= 3276
11:24:12 <mroman> at least for exponentian
11:24:58 <FireFly> conditionals seem to use other conventions for how to denote constant values
11:25:21 <FireFly> 10xxx seems to be a constant int, 30xxx a constant char (ASCII-encoded)
11:25:48 <mroman> also operator is % 10 and operand / 10?
11:26:37 <FireFly> How mid$ comes into that, I've no clue
11:26:59 <mroman> you encode where to assign in the op itself, right?
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11:27:53 <mroman> I don't get what the prompts are
11:27:59 <mroman> A prompt can store an integer?
11:28:19 <FireFly> Me neither, but I think it could be related to the whole drawing-a-window thing
11:28:30 <FireFly> there's a list of prompt variables and their types and lengths at the end of the PDF
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11:30:51 <mroman> Probably from the prompt file
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11:31:29 <mroman> Did this thing have some Database in the background?
11:35:31 <mroman> There are table search commands for example
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11:39:44 <mroman> there are indirect prompts as well
11:39:58 <mroman> No idea what indirect refers to right now
11:40:20 <FireFly> 22002 seems to be used as a general "unused operand".. I wonder what the reference implementation would do if you passed something else instead
11:40:42 <FireFly> for instance, "x ← number of days between y and z" seems to be 1xxxx,yyyy9,zzzz3,22002
11:40:54 <mroman> ah. There's file-io too
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11:42:13 <FireFly> foo = 0; if Applicant == 'Y': foo = 1; if Spouse == 'Y': foo = 1; ...; if foo == 1: ...
11:42:29 <FireFly> I take it this thing doesn't have a cleaner way to do "or"
11:43:06 <mroman> " It took about two weeks to become fluent in the language."
11:43:13 <mroman> Two weeks is actually not very long
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11:45:55 <mroman> Proceed If aborts if it fails?
11:46:14 <mroman> there's if, block if, proceed if and reverse block proceed if whatever that is supposed to be
11:47:49 <FireFly> isn't it reverse block if?
11:48:03 <FireFly> anyway, I think that's like a do-while loop, essentially (guessing by the arrow to the left)
11:48:30 <b_jonas> so you're missing reverse if, reverse block if, and block proceed if?
11:48:43 <FireFly> reverse if wouldn't make much sense
11:49:15 <b_jonas> which of those is computed come from?
11:49:55 <mroman> b_jonas: so 3101 jumps back to a previous 3101?
11:50:00 <FireFly> if is "conditionally execute next line", block if is "ignore until block-end if condition holds", reverse block if is the same but backwards
11:50:06 <mroman> looks ilke that from the C16LNAPP
11:50:13 <mroman> although I haven't found a nested 3101 now
11:50:21 <FireFly> er, unless condition holds*
11:51:06 <b_jonas> FireFly: so none of those have a target label?
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11:51:22 <b_jonas> this is actually structured programming with if-endif rather than if-goto?
11:51:27 <b_jonas> pretty advanced for its age
11:51:39 <mroman> 3101 looks like it jumps back to a previous 3101
11:51:46 <mroman> and 3001 jumps forward to the next 3001
11:52:17 <FireFly> b_jonas: yep. there is also "save address", "goto screen N", "return from subroutine"
11:52:31 <mroman> FireFly: What's WSF***
11:53:14 <b_jonas> maybe you can compile brainfuck to bancstar then
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11:53:48 <b_jonas> and then claim that this is one of those trivial brainfuck variants like Ook! that only replace the symbols with a longer encoding
11:53:54 <mroman> there are occurences of 3001 followed by another 3001
11:53:58 <FireFly> b_jonas: well, the if-endif doesn't nest
11:53:59 <b_jonas> ] would be 3101,,, or something
11:54:01 <mroman> but only followed by one endif block
11:54:09 <b_jonas> FireFly: you only need nested do-while, not nested if
11:54:19 <mroman> looks like it really jumps only to the next end block
11:54:24 <FireFly> do-while also does not nest I think
11:54:41 <FireFly> So compiling brainfuck would be a bit tricky
11:54:54 <mroman> there's a 3001, and a "nested" 3001
11:55:02 <mroman> but they both end at 00900
11:55:06 <mroman> (according to the arrows at least)
11:55:09 <b_jonas> well, I guess it's more practical to just escape to machine code somehow
11:56:30 <FireFly> mroman: yeah, I'm guessing it's implemented by setting a flag to ignore commands, and end-of-block resets it, or some such
11:58:19 <b_jonas> FireFly: or more likely just fast-scanning for the end of block command in a separate loop
12:01:02 <mroman> why's that more likely :D?
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12:04:31 <b_jonas> hmm, maybe they don't do either: instead the block if command just stores its label to a global variable, the end-of-block commands are preprocessed to know where the previous end-of-block statement is, and the end-of-block statements are compiled as a computed come from that kicks in when that global variable is set to anything between their address and the address of the previous end-of-block.
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12:05:51 <b_jonas> that would be simpler than either ABSTAINING FROM all statements other than end-of-block like FireFly suggests, or scanning in the code memory to find the end-of-block
12:06:58 <mroman> i think ignoring commands when a global flag is set is very easy to implement ;)
12:07:54 <b_jonas> mroman: but so is a loop to scan forward if your code is represented in as simple a way as four words per statement, first word is opcode
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12:11:56 <FireFly> https://github.com/jloughry/BANCStar/blob/master/LIST/src/L_COMMTS.C seems to have a lot of interesting info
12:13:10 <mroman> maybe even enough to write an interpreter :D
12:14:16 <b_jonas> FireFly: is that a code pretty printer?
12:14:46 <FireFly> the LIST utility is apparently what took a BANCStar source file and produced a listing like the pdf that was linked before
12:15:33 <b_jonas> hee, that loop with "Deactivate F7 - activate all other F-keys" in that pretty-printer seems copy-paste code
12:15:53 <mroman> not just a pretty printer
12:16:04 <mroman> it annotates code with pseudo-code
12:16:26 <b_jonas> mroman: yes. that's a pretty-printer. or call it a disassembler if you prefer.
12:17:13 <mroman> I'll call it code annotator
12:18:37 <FireFly> you could also call it a syntax highlighter :P
12:19:02 <FireFly> it typesets variables in boldtext and things
12:19:38 <mroman> It's the holy grail of a tool .
12:19:45 <mroman> that is, if you beleive in the holy grail
12:21:30 <FireFly> Whose bright idea was it to make the conditional operator encoding depend on the type?
12:21:57 <FireFly> That is, the check for inequality of strings seems to be encoded with the same operator number as >= on numbers
12:22:25 <b_jonas> there are string variables?
12:23:16 <FireFly> Makes sense to me, if you have input fields for things that it would be able to deal with strings too
12:23:32 <b_jonas> so the mid and length operations operate on entire strings? is there a string concatenate operator? that'd probably be easily enough for turing-completeness
12:24:20 <b_jonas> I thought it only operated on characters, and on fixed length arrays laid out in the 2000 words of data memory or something
12:24:59 <mroman> I think we're not even sure if you have 2000 words
12:25:04 <mroman> or just 2000 storage thingies
12:25:15 <mroman> which can hold values of different size
12:25:32 <FireFly> There is a line that gets annotated with "Name = First Name + Middle + Last", where the only sensible interpretation I can think of is string concatenation
12:25:44 <b_jonas> that scan includes a variable listing with lots of ALPHA stuff, but I thought that was just a character or something
12:25:48 <mroman> FireFly: which line number is that?
12:26:29 <Jafet> Is it esoteric if it's actually used for banking
12:28:29 <mroman> so the operators are 2,2,2
12:28:44 <mroman> and operands are 190,191,192
12:29:00 <FireFly> 2 is also addition (for numbers)
12:29:10 <b_jonas> ah, so it encodes multiple operators and operands together in a command? nice
12:29:12 <mroman> so 190,191,192 are prompts
12:30:04 <b_jonas> and does 10193 encode both that this is supposed to be an arithmetic expression thing and the destination location?
12:30:18 <mroman> although it seems like it just looks at operator_4?
12:30:32 <FireFly> b_jonas: it says "store to 193"
12:30:49 <FireFly> that it is in [10000,12000] indicates that it is a move operation, AFAIK
12:30:58 <FireFly> s/AFAIK/is my interpretation/
12:31:57 <mroman> the 193 in 10193 is the target
12:34:06 <FireFly> I like how the internal programming language has an article on wikipedia, but not the application itself
12:35:00 <b_jonas> FireFly: well the application is crap
12:35:52 <b_jonas> FireFly: also recall the legend that says lisp has supposed to eventually have a normal input syntax, but the parenthesis stuff was good enough that it remained
12:37:28 <mroman> parerthesis aren't that bady imo
12:39:07 <b_jonas> mroman: sure. and it's just a funny legend.
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12:39:30 <b_jonas> it's just that the parenthesis had become the most recognizable part
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12:46:32 <b_jonas> I searched for BANCStar in http://rosettacode.org/ and http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/ but it seems nobody is programming in it yet :-)
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12:47:58 <FireFly> Ooh. It'd be nice to submit a program to CGSE once we've got this figured out
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12:50:47 <b_jonas> FireFly: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Arithmetic/Integer might be a good start
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12:52:21 <b_jonas> FireFly: or http://rosettacode.org/wiki/String_concatenation
12:56:19 <FireFly> "Go to a Function Key" just how are you supposed to branch to keys?
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13:26:44 <mroman> FireFly: You can also branch to ASCII keys
13:26:53 <mroman> whatever that's supposed to mean
13:26:58 <mroman> I think it's like GOTO PAGE
13:27:52 <mroman> 8500 with M3 = 40XX is apparentely goto ASCII thingy
13:28:09 <mroman> There's a Multi-task menu
13:28:17 <mroman> so maybe there's some multi-tasking involved ;P
13:28:34 <b_jonas> maybe there's a dialog tab for each function key?
13:33:10 <FireFly> This C code reminds me of vim's source
13:33:31 <FireFly> though this is at least commented
13:43:18 <FireFly> I guess they're not all that similar, on second thought
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13:55:36 <mroman> if p^x == 1 then p^(x*y) == 1?
13:57:04 <mroman> modulo something that is
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14:01:55 <mhi^> FireFly: Actually Vim's source code is commented good enough (IMHO), it's just the pre-K&R syntax that makes it atrocious. :)
14:02:36 <FireFly> and the globals, and the ifdefs
14:03:03 <FireFly> and the really long functions and source files...
14:04:05 <mhi^> Bram doens't like refactoring. Code has to evolve naturally or something...
14:07:46 <FreeFull> mroman: I can't think of any cases where that wouldn't be the case, with real numbers at least
14:08:27 <FreeFull> That only works if y is an intger
14:08:41 <FreeFull> mroman: What if you had (-1)^2
14:09:56 <mroman> does that imply that z^(x*(y^(k+1))) is also 1?
14:10:31 <mroman> although empirical evidence suggests so
14:10:57 <FreeFull> Well, it would imply that if z was a positive number
14:11:20 <mroman> so they are all positive numbers
14:11:45 <FreeFull> If it's all positive or 0, then yes, it would imply that the other expression is also 1
14:11:56 <mroman> I just don't see why it implies that
14:12:20 <FreeFull> There are two cases where z^a = 1
14:12:41 <FreeFull> That's if you restrict yourself to non-negative numbers
14:15:37 <mroman> 3^1980 `mod` 15841 is 1
14:15:51 <mroman> that is 3^(495*4) `mod` 15841
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14:17:47 <FreeFull> If you take the x to be 2 and 495 to be y
14:18:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Rand.Next()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39787&oldid=39758 * Ais523 * (+435) not possible to compile arbitrary BF into it; might be curly-L-complete, depending on the RNG in question
14:18:10 <FreeFull> I bet there is a simpler example
14:18:22 <mroman> it holds for 3^(495*(2^k))) though
14:18:59 <mroman> i.e. once you found a k, so that the term yields 1
14:19:03 <mroman> increasing k won't change the value
14:19:13 <mroman> which is because you square it
14:19:17 <mroman> and 1 squared is still 1
14:19:47 <mroman> that's from miller-rabin btw
14:20:13 <mroman> once you found z^(x*(y^k)) is one, you don't have to check any other k
14:20:57 <mroman> (y is 2 for the miler-rabin case)
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14:32:32 <mroman> x^(a*y^(k+1)) is 1 if x^(a*y^k) is 1
14:32:57 <mroman> because x^(a*y^(k+1)) = x^(a*y*y^k) = (x^(a*y^k))^y
14:33:07 <mroman> and (x^(a*y^k)) = 1 means that 1^y = 1
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14:36:56 <mroman> There are Data Model Commands o_O
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14:50:29 <FreeFull> mroman: Didn't we already show that it's not true mod N
14:51:43 <mroman> it's true for at least all positive integers
14:52:41 <mroman> if x^(a*y^k) == 1 then x^(a*y^(k+1)) is also 1
14:53:41 <FreeFull> If x is 3, a is 2 and y is 495...
14:54:21 <mroman> x^(a*y*y^k) = x^(a*y^(k+1))
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14:55:17 <FreeFull> Wait, what were we getting up there then?
14:55:30 <mroman> x^(a*y*y^k) = x^(a*y^(k+1)) = (x^(a*y^k))^y
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14:56:02 <mroman> and (x^(a*y^k))^y is 1 if (x^(a*y^k)) is 1
14:56:06 <mroman> because 1^y is always 1
14:56:11 <FreeFull> Oh, I was multiplying by 2, not 4
14:56:43 <FreeFull> ghci gets stuck on 3^(4*495^3)
14:56:49 <FreeFull> To be fair, it is a really big number
14:57:13 <mroman> also (p-1)^2 mod p is always 1
14:57:46 <mroman> generally (p-r)^2 mod p is r^2
14:57:56 <mroman> I can't abuse this to modsqrt
14:58:14 <FreeFull> About 2.314751381666169e8 digits
14:58:28 <mroman> You should probably use modpow :)
14:58:35 <mroman> if haskell has such a thing
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15:00:53 <mroman> and it's actually a small number
15:01:08 <mroman> compared to what actual numbers you'd use in real world applications
15:01:30 <mroman> probably not in bancstar though
15:02:05 <mroman> although it looks like you have to give the length of a number in digits
15:13:14 <FreeFull> Remembering that googol only has 100 digits
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16:17:19 <mroman> googol is a baby number
16:18:01 <mroman> 100 digits isn't really that much
16:18:58 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity check for ‘e_1210100’
16:20:41 <mroman> compared to 4096 bit keys that's probably way larger :D
16:22:41 <mroman> 2^4096 is larger than 10^100
16:23:38 <b_jonas> > logBase 10 (2^2096 :: Integer)
16:23:39 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Float.Floating GHC.Integer.Type.Integer)
16:23:39 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘GHC.Float.logBase’
16:23:46 <b_jonas> > logBase 10 (2^2096 :: Double)
16:23:56 <mroman> > (100*(log 10))/log(2)
16:24:03 <b_jonas> anyway, it's around 0.303*4096
16:31:13 <mroman> also depending on how large an ALPHA can be
16:31:25 <mroman> they could've stored their string constant in one large ALPHA
16:31:38 <mroman> and possibly extract the strings they need later on in the code
16:31:50 <mroman> although that might not be better by that much :D
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16:39:01 <zzo38> mroman: No, I think they use the CONSTANT type for string constants, probably?
16:48:09 <zzo38> Although they could store multiple string constants and extract them later; such a thing is done on the first page of C16LNAPP in order to extract only one letter.
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16:57:28 <FireFly> zzo38: do you have a document with what you've figured out so far?
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16:57:53 <zzo38> No, I have not written such a thing, but you can try searching these IRC log (which is no longer available on HackEgo, however).
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17:18:25 <nooodl> "<mroman> what the hell <mroman> 2^4096 is larger than 10^100" <-- it gets clearer if you consider 2^4096 = 16^1024 > 10^100
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17:21:09 <Bike> "exponentials grow pretty fast, huh"
17:21:41 <mroman> nooodl: I can't even calculate 2*13 in my head
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17:22:17 <subleq> zomg, #esoteric has lambdabot
17:24:32 <mroman> I can't handle numbers well ;)
17:24:51 <Phantom_Hoover> ok so i came up with a screwy thought experiment the other day
17:25:16 <Phantom_Hoover> suppose you take a swimming pool and fit an airtight seal over the top of it
17:25:51 <Phantom_Hoover> then you drill a 1cm wide hole in the top, and to that attach a 20m long, open-ended tube
17:26:47 <Phantom_Hoover> if you then hold that tube straight upright and fill it with water, that tiny bit of extra water (less than 20 litres) will increase the pressure inside the entire swimming pool to 3 atmospheres
17:27:26 <Phantom_Hoover> the only reason i can believe this is that the alternatives sound even sillier
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17:29:13 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: the water falls out of the tube and into the swimming pool, because the pressure inside the swimming pool is less than 3 atmospheres
17:29:38 <Phantom_Hoover> the swimming pool's sealed tight over the top, remember
17:29:49 <ais523_> oh, you mean the swimming pool's already full of water?
17:29:53 <Phantom_Hoover> (assume there's no air between the surface of the pool and the seal, too)
17:29:53 <ais523_> in that case, exactly the same thing happens
17:30:03 <ais523_> the pressure in the swimming pool increases slightly
17:30:09 <ais523_> and most of the water falls out of the tube
17:30:24 <ais523_> into the pool, which increases in pressure to compensate
17:30:34 <ais523_> eventually, you end up with a very small amount of water left in the tube
17:30:50 <ais523_> what do you think water pressure /is/?
17:30:55 <ais523_> it's caused by the compression of wate
17:31:08 <int-e> So how big is your pool?
17:31:08 <ais523_> if you assume that a) water pressure exists, and b) water is incompressible, that explains why you're getting silly results
17:31:46 <ais523_> or put it another way: assume I have two completely sealed boxes of water, one at 1 atmosphere of pressure, the other at 3 atmospheres of pressure
17:31:50 <Phantom_Hoover> no seriously, the pressure might be caused by compression but that compression is negligible in terms of volume
17:32:04 <ais523_> what is the difference between the boxes that determines the difference in pressure?
17:32:10 <ais523_> answer: one has more water molecules than the other
17:32:15 <Phantom_Hoover> this is why when you're scuba diving you never get crushed, your body's largely made of incompressible water
17:32:41 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water#Compressibility
17:32:44 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: you don't get crushed because the water inside your body increases in pressure to match the water outside
17:32:53 <int-e> If you take a serious pool, 25*20*3m, then if I haven't messed up my calculations you'll need something like 150 liters of water to compensate for 200kPa of extra pressure.
17:33:00 <Phantom_Hoover> which by your logic would require that it should be compressible
17:33:31 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: your link doesn't contradict what I or int-e are saying
17:33:46 <Phantom_Hoover> "The low compressibility of non-gases, and of water in particular, leads to their often being assumed as incompressible. The low compressibility of water means that even in the deep oceans at 4 km depth, where pressures are 40 MPa, there is only a 1.8% decrease in volume."
17:34:05 <ais523_> the fact that water compressibility is low means that the pressure will increase quite rapidly as you put more water into the swimming pool
17:34:23 <ais523_> but if it's only a very small extra proportion, like in your experiment
17:34:28 <ais523_> it won't have that much extra to increase
17:34:50 <Phantom_Hoover> int-e, it's possible btw that i'm misinterpreting the formula for pressure in a static fluid
17:34:52 <int-e> (150l, of course, is ridculously small compared to the 1.5 million liters that the pool contains)
17:35:27 <ais523_> or, well, I guess if you "fill the tube with water"
17:35:39 <ais523_> then that involves adding enough water into the tube to increase the pressure of the swimming pool to 3atm
17:35:52 <ais523_> which will be more than the capacity of the tube, but not by all that much because water compresses poorly
17:35:58 <Phantom_Hoover> int-e, specifically, the density * gravitational field strength * depth formula
17:36:38 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: that's just for calculating the pressure. if you turn it into a proper intregral it's even true for compressible fluids
17:37:57 <Phantom_Hoover> so my reasoning is that because it's 20m from the pool to the surface of the water (in the tube), the pressure in the pool is the same as if the entire pool were 20m deep
17:38:09 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: it's just that you're multiplying something ridiculously small (compressibility of water) by something ridiculously large (the surface area of the pool divided by that of the hole and cylinder above)
17:38:29 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: yes, that's true
17:38:48 <int-e> but if you just add enough water to fill the tube, the tube won't be full.
17:39:08 <ais523_> and if you keep pouring water in until the tube is full, then you will have 3atm of pressure at the bottom of the pool
17:39:08 <int-e> because the water in the pool is compressed just a litte.
17:39:26 <int-e> ais523_: at the top actually :)
17:39:44 <int-e> (oh. depending on how you hold the tube.)
17:39:57 <ais523_> int-e: err, of the top of the pool itself, yeah
17:40:03 <ais523_> the pressure at the top of the tube is 1atm, obviously
17:43:19 <ais523_> hmm, now I'm reading some of the rest of the article Phantom_Hoover linked to
17:43:29 <ais523_> and thought "huh, I'd never wondered before today whether ice conducted electricity"
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17:46:54 <zzo38> When typing an address on an envelope, is it supposed to be Pica or Elite?
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17:49:17 <ais523_> zzo38: whichever one fits 10 characters to the inch, IIRC
17:50:09 <zzo38> The instructions say Pica is ten character per inch
17:50:43 <ais523_> in that case, Elite must be 12 per inch
17:50:55 <Phantom_Hoover> (though... idk, if you used a less compressible fluid...)
17:52:09 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: this is like the thought experiment of a perfectly inelastic floor
17:52:40 <ais523_> which makes anything placed on it much more fragile, as a result
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17:53:57 <mroman> because it doesn't absorb impact of stuff?
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17:55:21 <ais523_> and ofc, it's impossible to place a perfectly inelastic object on a perfectly inelastic floor unless you slow it down to a speed of exactly 0 as it touches
17:55:25 <ais523_> otherwise, one or the other mustb reak
17:55:36 <ais523_> then go on breaking, and go on breaking, ad infinitum
17:55:55 <ais523_> until they end up as dust so fine any elasticity properties become meaningless
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17:56:48 <Phantom_Hoover> i did run through the calculations, but with a small pool and a more incompressible fluid you could still recreate the desired effect
17:57:28 <ais523_> why not just hire a swimming pool and find out?
17:57:44 <ais523_> (the hard part is finding a seal for the top which can withstand 3atm of pressure)
17:58:27 <nooodl> http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?easy+regexp/irori_1173885553&hs i love haskell code like this am i bad
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17:59:12 <zzo38> I wouldn't think to make you love Haskell code like whatever make you bad
17:59:35 <ais523_> is that third line defining an operator #?
17:59:44 <ais523_> IIRC, in OCaml, you have to use prefix notation to define an operator
17:59:45 <nooodl> the ones below it define %
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18:02:18 <nooodl> oh my god: the m -> (%) -> (#) -> m mutual recursion. it's so good
18:02:57 <nooodl> what single ascii chars are available as operators if you have just Prelude loaded?
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18:04:09 <nooodl> i know % ? and # are popular in code golf, that i know of
18:04:46 <nooodl> oh i guess & is available. because that's a lens thing
18:04:56 <nooodl> (imagines Lens golf, shudders)
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18:06:54 <Jafet> > let 2 + 2 = 5 in 2 + 2
18:07:28 <nooodl> i think it's (%), (?), (#), (&), (!)
18:07:29 <Melvar> > let 2 + 2 = 5 in 1 + 1
18:07:30 <lambdabot> *Exception: <interactive>:3:5-13: Non-exhaustive patterns in function +
18:08:27 <nooodl> also, wonderful unicode punctuation, which anagol, however, counts as multiple bytes
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18:09:37 <zzo38> nooodl: Which it should, but maybe it can still help if you use the high codepoint symbols for less used ones
18:09:48 <zzo38> (Anagol also uses binary formats too)
18:09:49 <nooodl> > let (☃) = (+) in 2 ☃ 2
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18:14:23 <ais523_> if it uses UTF-8, though, you're wasting bytes by using non-ASCII characters
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18:16:19 <Jafet> > generalCategory '☃'
18:31:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:GermanyBoy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39788&oldid=39738 * GermanyBoy * (+449)
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18:35:38 <zzo38> ais523_: Yes, that is it. But it is what I am saying, one characters with more than seven bits, will use more bytes to encode using UTF-8 so you would use those for less often codes.
18:36:32 <zzo38> If you are using a programming language/interpreter/compiler that doesn't require UTF-8, then you can do a lot more too, since you are not limited to UTF-8 encoding and can therefore shorten some things.
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18:40:06 <zzo38> I had idea about writing a Japanese-style manga using some help (although I probably never would do so, actually). It is called "Pokemon Card", and in it Professor Oak invents Pokemon Card, and the pokemons can talk (including the ones pictured on the cards) too, and many strange thing like you find in Akagi too.
18:40:19 <zzo38> Would such a things interest you at all? I am just curious.
18:41:25 <Melvar> ( update S [True,"foo",Z]
18:41:25 <idris-bot> [True, "foo", 1] : HVect [Bool, String, Nat]
18:41:32 <Melvar> ( update not [True,"foo",Z]
18:41:33 <idris-bot> [False, "foo", 0] : HVect [Bool, String, Nat]
18:42:01 <Melvar> ( update (++ "bar") [True,"foo",Z]
18:42:01 <idris-bot> [True, "foobar", 0] : HVect [Bool, String, Nat]
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19:12:26 <shachaf> #define __NR_oldolduname 59
19:16:07 <olsner> fungot: what's your old old name?
19:16:07 <fungot> olsner: they decided not to waste any brain cells storing obscure unix silliness).
19:16:22 <olsner> fungot: p. good decision
19:16:23 <fungot> olsner: now i started that mud as roleplayer make one cringe? back in seattle, and hang around here
19:20:17 <olsner> 222 is not unused, it's just [REDACTED]
19:20:28 <ais523_> shachaf: are you having as much fun with syscall.h as I was with the Perl headers?
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19:22:29 <shachaf> I was just looking through it, but it turns out it has all sorts of jams.
19:22:38 <shachaf> What about the Perl headers?
19:22:54 <ais523_> they're massively inconsistent in capitalization style
19:23:08 <ais523_> and have some great names, too
19:23:11 <ais523_> <+ais523_> also, so far, my favourite macro name inside the Perl core is "SV_CHECK_THINKFIRST_COW_DROP"
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19:32:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lii]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39789 * GermanyBoy * (+5210) Created page with "'''Lii''' is a declarative object-oriented language created by [[User:GermanyBoy]] in 2014. It is named after a fictional 31st century tea company Lii Tea (from a SciFi book, ..."
19:33:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:GermanyBoy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39790&oldid=39788 * GermanyBoy * (+45) /* Summer languages 2014 */ Lii
19:33:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39791&oldid=39784 * GermanyBoy * (+10) /* L */
19:34:43 <ais523_> come to think of it, the reason that macro's required is almost as silly as the name
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19:42:47 <FireFly> I won't even ask the inevitable question
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19:48:14 <olsner> Bicyclidine: whatever the deal, it's no big deal
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20:05:46 <Bicyclidine> everything in math.h is deterministic, right? i'm losing my mind here
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20:06:30 <olsner> nah, it's mostly just undefined behavior
20:14:59 <Slereah_> IIRC math.h might have some uncertainty in the last bit or somesuch
20:15:19 <Slereah_> Because they can't guarantee precision on all the bits for all special functions
20:15:25 <Slereah_> And so it might depend on the implementation
20:16:22 <Slereah_> Although the basic functions have a precision that is guaranteed to be deterministic
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20:17:30 <Bicyclidine> i'm getting results divergent by a multiple of 10^280 or so, is the thing
20:18:19 <Bicyclidine> also i can no longer reproduce the nondeterminism, so, thinking my computer's haunted or such
20:18:43 <Slereah_> The gods of computers are smiling on you
20:19:18 <Bicyclidine> no, it stopped nondtermining on the results with 2800 dB
20:20:07 <int-e> > 1024/log 10 * log 2
20:20:45 <olsner> if math.h follows IEEE (which may or may not be required by C), then I think most operations are defined to give the exact result according to some rules
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20:22:42 <olsner> but some stuff might not have such requirements?
20:25:48 <oerjan> olsner: i recall from previous discussion that there are some operations where it is not known how to calculate the perfectly rounded result, so either of the neighboring closest numbers is accepted.
20:26:13 <oerjan> *efficiently calculate
20:27:09 <oerjan> trigonometry and stuff, iirc
20:27:49 <Bicyclidine> alas IEEE does not define the "f(n) if machine n halts, otherwise zero" operation
20:29:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pi]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39792&oldid=39717 * 63.251.123.2 * (+48) add link to IDEOne copy
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20:31:07 <olsner> f(n) = 0 is easier to handle
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20:36:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pi]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39793&oldid=39792 * 63.251.123.2 * (+0) is [[:Category:Brainfuck equivalents]]
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20:40:46 <mroman> what the hell is Photo Library?
20:43:17 <mroman> those Phising mails get more confusing
20:43:40 <mroman> you're not even sure whether it's a serious phishing mail or a serious extortion mail or a serious joke
20:44:15 <mroman> it' doesn't even say which website it tries to phish
20:47:59 <oerjan> mroman: did someone point out yet that p^(x*y) == (p^x)^y ?
20:48:42 <int-e> ooh, freefall has a stand-up comedian :)
20:48:58 <oerjan> well then obviously if p^x is 1, so is p^(x*y)
20:49:07 <oerjan> (and this all works mod N)
20:49:43 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Real.Integral b0)
20:49:44 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘GHC.Real.^’
20:49:44 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: GHC.Num.Num a => a at Top level
20:49:44 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘b0’ is ambiguous
20:50:05 <mroman> yeah. the tough part was figuring out that you can rewrite a^(x*y^(k+1)) as a^(x*(y^k)*y)
20:51:07 <mroman> (I'm not very good at match)
20:51:16 <mroman> also not very good at spelling
20:51:24 <mroman> although I can write 120 WPM
20:52:04 <int-e> that wasn't so hard :P
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20:52:15 <int-e> I overuse those smileys, don't I.
20:52:28 <Taneb> Also, I went to Alton Towers today
20:52:38 <mroman> 120 words per minute feels really fast
20:52:47 <mroman> but compared to the guys who can write 200 WPM it's slow as hell
20:52:58 <mroman> seeing as the average internet user is somewhere around 60 WPM
20:53:07 <int-e> > 120^2/200 -- hell, in words per minute
20:53:22 <mroman> which I don't really beleive but that's what does websites say
20:53:28 <mroman> 60 WPM is terribly slow
20:53:31 <mroman> I can do that one handed
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20:54:04 <int-e> I should learn to touch-type. I've been thinking that for 15 years :)
20:54:18 <mroman> on touchscreen keyboards?
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20:54:30 <int-e> In the meantime I tend to type faster than I think.
20:54:47 <mroman> I tend to write phonetically
20:54:47 <int-e> mroman: no, on normal mechanical ones
20:54:52 <Taneb> mroman, yeah, same
20:55:03 <olsner> then you have no real reason to learn touch typing, except perhaps to get slightly more time left over for thinking
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20:55:09 <Taneb> I almost wrote "advantage" instead of "about it" a few minutes ago
20:55:30 <mroman> what's touch-type then?
20:55:44 <olsner> it could be more (or less) ergonomic to do touch typing than ad-hoc typing though
20:55:47 <int-e> typing with most fingers resting on the home row
20:56:05 <mroman> "d) is typing without using the sense of sight to find the keys."
20:56:22 <int-e> unlike hunt-and-peck typing where the hands wander all over the keyboard.
20:56:33 <int-e> (often but not always at horrible speed)
20:56:36 <mroman> home row is a stupid concept I think
20:56:54 <mroman> and you can ask the fastest typer in the world and he'll say the same thing
20:57:12 <mroman> your hands are supposed to wander all over the place
20:57:30 <mroman> Bicyclidine: I don't really know if he's officially the fastest
20:58:00 <mroman> the way I type is an extension of hunt-and-peck I think
20:58:04 <mroman> I don't use the home row
20:58:15 <mroman> my fingers wander all over the place when necessary
20:58:24 <mroman> but I can type without looking at the keyboard of course
20:58:49 <mroman> The idea is, that you can use your index finger
20:58:59 <mroman> close your eyes, move the index finger to your nose
20:59:11 <mroman> and then somebody says a key and you can press that key with your index finger
20:59:22 <int-e> mroman: could you check whether you mean WPM or CPM please?
20:59:35 <int-e> characters per second
21:00:34 <mroman> where a word is defined as 5 characters
21:00:49 <mroman> that's 600 characters per minute
21:00:58 <mroman> not counting spaces I think
21:01:18 <mroman> that's 10 characters per second
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21:02:29 <mroman> To type that fast you memorize word patterns and just spill them out very fast
21:02:35 <mroman> by "twitching" your finger
21:02:59 <mroman> stuff like contest, content, sentence can be written incredibly fast
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21:03:38 <mroman> other words like quickly are harder for me to type
21:03:54 <mroman> mostly due to two vowels in a row
21:04:17 <int-e> (including a free typo!)
21:04:18 <mroman> I can only use my left index finger to type
21:04:34 <mroman> which is why I can't write words with two or more vowels in a row fast
21:04:45 <mroman> (left index finger to type vowels)
21:05:29 <mroman> also obviously I can't keep up 120 WPM for more than two minutes :D
21:07:15 <mroman> I can type on it better because my left hand is clumsy
21:07:32 <mroman> and dvorak enables me to type vowels with my left hand and rest I can write with my very nimble right hand
21:07:58 <mroman> also my pinky finger are somewhat "trigger fingerish"
21:08:06 <mroman> so I dont' really use them to type too
21:08:15 <mroman> which breaks the whole home row system anyway
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21:09:20 <mroman> int-e: are you using qwerty?
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21:09:54 <mroman> I'm still waiting for text to speech programming
21:10:09 <mroman> which will probably bring other programming languages to live
21:10:41 <mroman> saying int space main paranthesis right int space argc comma char asteriks asteriks ... is tedious
21:11:14 <int-e> yes I'm using a qwerty layout keyboard
21:12:14 <int-e> (which is already slightly odd in Austria)
21:13:18 <int-e> I'm from Germany originally. Close enough.
21:13:31 <mroman> Dann kannst du ja Deutsch :)
21:13:59 <mroman> It's "ostrich" actually...
21:14:16 <int-e> In any case I use English all the time.
21:14:41 <int-e> Being single, yes, certainly.
21:15:09 <int-e> (reading english books, being on english speaking IRC channels, reading... well, all sorts of computer related stuff)
21:15:30 <mroman> reading english books, watching tv series in english, movies in english
21:15:39 <mroman> I actually think in english
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21:16:02 <mroman> and by thinking I mean those monologues you do in your brain
21:16:15 <int-e> I know what you mean
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21:18:47 <mroman> I only use it "written" though
21:19:53 <int-e> I'm working in academia, and a few of my colleagues don't even speak german.
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01:08:49 <Sgeo> I'm a bit in shock about this elixir-lang.org unit testing example
01:09:09 <Sgeo> It's a testing DSL not written in weird pseudoenglish!
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02:40:35 <zzo38> I made a table to compare different online quiz systems. There are some details I have not been able to determine. Do you know? Furthermore, maybe I can also add more rows/columns based on your requests/investigations, too?
02:48:33 <zzo38> See gopher://zzo38computer.org/0textfile/miscellaneous/onlinequiz.txt or http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/onlinequiz.txt for more information please.
02:48:41 <zzo38> Do you know of any that I have missed?
02:52:19 <Sgeo> The Windows App store does not have any apps that support gopher
02:56:24 <zzo38> Then don't use the Windows App store. Or, download the file over HTTP. (Or, both!)
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03:28:19 <zzo38> Which online quiz system have you used at all?
03:29:32 <Sgeo> help i keep calling spiderman superman
03:31:06 <Sgeo> pretty sure i started typing superman first even in that line
03:39:38 <Sgeo> help im addicted to stacksort
03:42:17 <Sgeo> help im addicted to starting statements with help
03:43:01 <shachaf> zzo38: I think I used Internet Quiz Engine once.
03:43:43 <shachaf> kmc: whoa, https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/5342238
03:47:03 <zzo38> shachaf: You have used? Have you used others, and whether or not, what is your opinion of such things please?
03:47:17 <shachaf> I don't remember whether I used it.
03:47:37 <zzo38> O, you only *thought* you used it...
03:48:04 <zzo38> Well, what is your opinion of that chart, then?
03:48:43 <shachaf> Was it running on your gopher server?
03:49:13 <zzo38> Internet Quiz Engine is running on my gopher server.
03:49:23 <shachaf> Unfortunately I don't have a gopher client here.
03:50:07 <zzo38> Write one if you want; is not too difficult to do. You can read the chart downloaded from HTTP or gopher; it is available on both.
03:50:39 <zzo38> (And simply downloading a file from gopher is pretty easy; to pipe "echo" into "nc" and then piping or redirecting the output of that, will work just fine.)
03:51:40 <zzo38> For example, to download that chart over gopher, connect to port 70 of my computer, and then send "textfile/miscellaneous/onlinequiz.txt" (without the quotation marks) and a carriage return and line feed. The response is entirely the file; there is no header.
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03:53:59 <shachaf> Can I just send a line feed?
03:54:53 <zzo38> My own server will accept that, although to be standards-compliant you should use both.
03:55:11 <zzo38> (Other servers are not guaranteed to accept it.)
03:55:21 <zzo38> (Although they probably do anyways.)
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04:05:02 <Sgeo> Sounds almost like HTTP 0.9
04:05:33 <Sgeo> Which iirc causes security problems for the web in its mere existence somehow. I forget how though
04:06:03 <kmc> yeah, that's mentioned in _The Tangled Web_
04:06:04 <newsham> was it lack of content-type header?
04:06:28 <zzo38> HTTP 0.9 does not cause security problems by itself, but in combination with other things, it is capable of doing so.
04:06:30 <kmc> you can make somebody go to http://whatever:25 and it'll try to interpret the SMTP server's response as HTML
04:06:43 <kmc> and sometimes you can manage to get javascript in there somehow
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04:07:05 <newsham> but also if you get javascript in :25 thats a diff origin than :80
04:07:12 <kmc> I forget what all is going on here
04:07:17 <Sgeo> I don't think it is for cookies
04:07:17 <zzo38> kmc: That isn't really much of a security issue, *as long as cookies specify the port number too*
04:07:19 <kmc> I think cookies have different rules than other origin stuff
04:07:21 <Sgeo> It is for XMLHttpRequest
04:07:22 <kmc> it's all completely fucked basically
04:07:29 <Sgeo> This is why fuck cookies
04:07:33 <newsham> although maybe not on all versions of IE.. i know ie has some weird things with origins sometimes
04:07:42 <newsham> ie. I believe localhost is one origin, no matter what port, in IE
04:08:08 <Sgeo> newsham: you need to send P3P headers to do cross-origin domain cookie stuff, I ... think. Which may make IE more secure than Chrome/Firefox in some circumstances.
04:08:10 <newsham> if you dont use any "ambient credentials" lots of web problems go away
04:08:14 <newsham> (so do lots of web solutions :)
04:08:17 <zzo38> Also, full HTTP clients shouldn't use headerless requests/responses; only lightweight clients should do so.
04:08:34 <newsham> sgeo: but localhost:80 and localhost:25 are not cross-origin
04:10:19 <newsham> i learned a new web thing today.. "<plaintext>" tag.. not closeable.. "deprecated" and unsupported, but works on all the big browsers
04:10:21 <zzo38> newsham: Using SSH for interactive service and authentication and security, causes much better security. One possible security issue would then be escape codes to change key bindings, although that can be fixed really easily. Another possible security issue would then be trusted X forwarding, but you can just disable trusted X forwarding.
04:10:30 <zzo38> newsham: I have used <plaintext> actually
04:10:33 <newsham> (only thing I found so far that didnt honor it properly was lynx)
04:10:38 <zzo38> So I knew it about a lot
04:11:15 <kmc> newsham: yeah, it's in the HTML5 Living Standard: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tokenization.html#plaintext-state
04:11:18 <zzo38> Security issues between servers don't exist with SSH.
04:11:23 <Sgeo> Isn't there old HTML stuff othat also still exists?
04:11:31 <Sgeo> What was that input thing that took over the browser?
04:11:38 <newsham> zzo38: in fairness if you're going to compare apples to apples, you should prob compare ssh to using client certs in https
04:11:41 <kmc> which specifies exact handling of a lot of erroneous markup that is officially deprecated and unsupported and wrong
04:11:56 * kmc is currently implementing the html5 syntax standard...
04:11:59 <Sgeo> Well, not took over. But it was one input field a document
04:12:10 <newsham> hmm, its in html5 standard? MDN said its "deprecated" since "html 2.0"
04:12:29 <kmc> I don't think it is
04:12:31 <newsham> thanks for the info, i didnt know
04:12:41 <kmc> the point of HTML5 is to provide precise error handling behavior for all kinds of bad deprecated wrong things
04:12:44 <zzo38> newsham: I know HTTPS supports certificates, but there is still HTML and HTTP and stuff to deal with!!! Also, the authentication in HTTPS isn't quite best anyways
04:12:56 <kmc> there's one part of the spec that says what constitutes "correct" HTML and another part which says how browsers have to handle incorrect HTML
04:13:08 <zzo38> But about <plaintext>, you could use XML to avoid such issue?
04:13:09 <newsham> zzo38: how is the auth in https unlike the auth in ssh?
04:13:16 <kmc> you can feed poorly written geocities HTML from 1995 into a modern HTML5 parser and get as plausible a "correct" result as any
04:13:19 <zzo38> newsham: It is a subset, I think.
04:13:30 <zzo38> Actually, not quite.
04:13:52 <newsham> fwiw, I believe using client certs (and properly verifying both client and server certs) is pretty good auth in https
04:13:53 <zzo38> HTTPS supports HTTP authentication as well as its own, but SSH authentication supports more secure methods than just simple passwords.
04:13:53 <kmc> if you feed it into a HTML5 /validator/ it will scream bloody murder
04:14:06 <newsham> https isnt passwords, its certificate-based
04:14:08 <zzo38> You can also use public/private key pairs, and that stuff
04:14:09 <Sgeo> Does <ISINDEX> exist in HTML5?
04:14:25 <zzo38> newsham: You still need a password to log in, though, even though a certificate is used.
04:14:47 <newsham> not necessarily. a server could accept a client certificate as authentication without requiring a password
04:15:12 <newsham> they often dont solely because they arent implemented at the same layers (ie. some apps dont "know"that client certs are being used, and so require their own auth layer)
04:15:22 <newsham> but that would also be the case when tunneling http over ssh
04:15:41 <zzo38> newsham: I didn't know about client certificate, although yes I can see the problem.
04:15:42 <Bike> oh man, i remember isindex
04:15:54 <zzo38> But the solution is *don't* tunnel HTTP over SSH; tunnel the application directly.
04:15:58 <Sgeo> http://www.the-pope.com/isin.shtml
04:15:58 <Bike> Sgeo: wikipedia says it was invalid in 4 strict, i don't know how that transfers to 5
04:16:51 <Bike> i think my favorite little bit of the historical cruft is how <u> and <i> are retrofitted into the whole presentation/content whatever distinction
04:17:10 <Sgeo> I think <nextid> was for use by some HTML generator?
04:18:28 <Sgeo> "This element served to enable the NeXT web designing tool to generate automatic NAME labels for its anchors"
04:18:47 <Sgeo> "It is also probably one of the least understood of all of the early HTML elements, being poorly documented, not explained in any depth anywhere, and those who obviously understood how it worked couldn't be bothered to explain it to the rest of us."
04:18:58 <Bike> NeXT had web tools, huh
04:19:08 <Bike> oh btw did everyone hear that xanadu has a working demo now.
04:19:11 <Sgeo> http://www.the-pope.com/nextid.html
04:19:19 <Sgeo> Who is the pope anyway?
04:19:29 <Bike> francis i, i think
04:19:30 <newsham> bike: isnt <blink> the best historic tag?
04:19:55 <Bike> Sgeo: ok the top of the site looks like alt-catholics and they're nutso.
04:20:33 <Bike> newsham: blink wasn't even standard!! inferior.
04:20:52 <newsham> the web was never very compliant :)
04:21:08 <Sgeo> Bike: the rest of the site was apparently built using legacy HTML
04:21:11 <zzo38> HTML/HTTPS is just a big mess in these times.
04:21:11 <Bike> u and i are funny because they tried to hammer them out back in 4 but then they decided they, like, totally had semantic meaning, man
04:21:12 <Sgeo> No wonder the interest
04:21:12 <Sgeo> http://www.the-pope.com/cgi/topical.pl
04:21:46 <Bike> there's an alt-catholic church near me that i found out about because splc classed them as a hate group, so like, yeah
04:21:51 <newsham> isnt <b> pretty much formatting too?
04:22:15 <zzo38> Bike: What is an "alt-catholic church" and how is it hate groups too?
04:22:33 <newsham> html is in generall pretty lame.
04:22:50 <Sgeo> Did... did hypertext not exist in the earliest versionss of hypertext markup language?
04:22:51 <Bike> zzo38: my incorrect term for catholics who reject various modern catholic rules, most usually the Vatican II conference thingie, so they're out of communion
04:23:00 <Sgeo> I do not understand why these words are not hypertext
04:23:00 <newsham> ages ago back in college the cs dept guys would write html with a preprocessor that was very much tex-like. macros and similar syntax
04:23:20 <newsham> {b this is bold} or something like that
04:23:42 <newsham> most importantly though -- supported macros
04:23:45 <Sgeo> Why, the pope, why?
04:23:49 <newsham> why html doesnt do macros is beyond me
04:23:52 <zzo38> There are security issues, very complicated implementation-related stuff, and so much confusions, even problem with different kind of user interfaces you need separate files for each one, etc.
04:24:49 <zzo38> Gopher doesn't have any of these problems (although it doesn't have security either, but it doesn't really need it; if you want it anyways you can tunnel it over SSH). For applications with authentication and interactivity and so on, SSH should be used.
04:24:54 <Bike> apparently the usual term is "traditionalist"
04:25:35 <zzo38> Gopher is suitable such as well for desktop, touch-screen, even scantron form, all without needing separate file on the server for each one.
04:25:45 <Bike> as for hate group, i looked at their website, it had stuff about how they'd throw you out if you were a woman wearing pants or something so i stopped
04:26:25 <newsham> i kind of like the plan9/acme style of "hypertext" more than the html style.
04:26:37 <Bike> xanadu maaaaan
04:26:46 <newsham> or at least it seems more promising.. html has really been explored a lot more fully
04:27:13 <newsham> but basically you write rules that say how text is to be interpretted, and those rules apply automatically to the text, without explicit markup
04:27:33 <newsham> so for example if there's an "http://www.foo.com/bar" it knows "thats an url for a web page, use the browser"
04:27:37 <zzo38> I tend to use plain text documents for a lot of things; it mean you can download and view file just fine even without web-browser software.
04:27:46 <Bike> i think hypertext should work as bush originally envisioned it. microfilm.
04:27:47 <newsham> and if there's a "/file/path:lineno" it knows "thats a file location, use an editor"
04:28:04 <newsham> and if you dont like the linking rules, you tweak them to suit your needs
04:28:04 <Bike> so... url schema?
04:28:53 <kmc> zzo38: what do you think of plan9?
04:29:00 <kmc> it seems like your kind of thing
04:29:13 <Sgeo> http://www.the-pope.com/lostHTML.htm
04:29:20 <Sgeo> So, this person knows of HTML 5.0
04:30:14 <zzo38> kmc: I don't know much about, but I think it has some good ideas involved certainly. The Plan9 file protocol also would be suitable for example, to connect to hard disks and file servers and stuff using a TCP/IP protocol, whether or not the device natively uses such thing.
04:30:20 <newsham> anyway in plan9 its the "plumber" that does this, and it has support integrated into the acme environment (among other places). docs are here http://swtch.com/plan9port/man/man4/plumber.html
04:31:10 <zzo38> Plan9 is not a bad design.
04:31:32 <Sgeo> What are these <hp0> things?
04:31:42 <Bike> tags of the devil
04:31:45 <kmc> zzo38: qemu lets you share a directory on the host as a 9p filesystem mounted by the guest
04:32:14 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, that is good idea too
04:32:20 <kmc> this might be one of the main uses of 9p anymore
04:32:37 <Bike> "However, protest from the Joe Sixpack programmers"
04:33:01 <kmc> newsham: line numbers are good, I have a small script which lets me write "vim foo.rs:1234" and it will open foo.rs and jump to line 1234
04:33:12 <newsham> yah i have a script like that too :)
04:33:22 <newsham> but still nicer in plan9 just clickign on it
04:33:27 <kmc> it exists in the platonic realm of shell scripts
04:33:39 <newsham> also plan9's supports filename:5-10 and filename:/main/ and other goodies
04:34:19 <newsham> i think 9p is also used by some window manager or other, too (not to mention plan9ports, which is a plan9-like mini environment on modern unix)
04:35:01 <zzo38> You can use multi mouse button for other functions, for example left to copy, middle to paste, right to activate, might be one way.
04:35:15 <kmc> what does filename:/main/ mean?
04:35:22 <newsham> kmc: open file, search regex
04:35:54 <Bike> i remember i thought up a system GUI once that was basically chrome
04:35:57 <Bike> i forget if chromebooks do it
04:36:08 <Sgeo> http://www.the-pope.com/sgmlcraz.html
04:36:10 <Bike> cos i had my computer set up to never have sub-screen windows.
04:36:13 <newsham> nifty thing of having the ability to clikc that, you just put /* see main.c:/main/ */ in your src and now yoru src's have xref hyperlinks
04:36:46 <kmc> Bike: i used to have a windows 98SE install where i told it to launch quake 3 instead of explorer.exe
04:36:49 <newsham> p9 man pages are like that too, you just click on man pages to go to other man pages, or to go straight to the srcs
04:36:50 <kmc> boot2quake3
04:37:01 <Bike> you've probably seen the sysadmin-through-doom thing
04:37:05 <zzo38> newsham: Yes, I can see that can nicely too
04:37:12 <kmc> I enjoyed that a lot as a kid :)
04:37:13 <shachaf> speaking of good things google code search is so good
04:37:21 <newsham> you could prob do that in yyour editor if its html based, but you'dhave to use explicit markup somehow
04:37:23 <shachaf> i wish it still existed externally and searched everything
04:37:29 <newsham> vs. just writing a rule to auto-markup
04:39:00 <newsham> http://vimeo.com/64487176 <- plumber demo on vimeo
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04:40:05 <zzo38> Is it possible to make on Linux virtual console that you can push mouse to copy/paste a text between them, and the PAUSE to pause window, and SCROLL LOCK to do a scrollback by keys (page-up/page-down) and make it buffer rather than display further text?
04:41:18 <newsham> i think you can scrollup on console while it continues to buffer more output
04:41:31 <newsham> you can definitely do it in tmux and screen
04:42:00 <zzo38> I never tried pushing SCROLL LOCK on Linux to see what it does, so I don't know.
04:42:19 <newsham> i think its control-pageup or something like that to scrollback on linux console?
04:42:47 <zzo38> I haven't tried those things either. How do you set the scroll buffer size?
04:45:39 <newsham> baked into kernel srcs i imagine? i dont know offhand
04:46:06 <newsham> http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Keyboard-and-Console-HOWTO-18.html
04:46:54 <Bike> it's kinda funny how x has its own keyboard stuff, so i end up having different layouts for x and console since i haven't bothered with the latter
04:47:40 <newsham> btw, lsub.org guys made a plan9-like system that had an http-like protocol (back to original topci of html and gopher): http://lsub.org/ls/export/opiwp9.pdf
04:47:49 <newsham> kind of like a stripped down and simplified 9p
04:50:19 <Bike> looks like my distro has its own setup for console keyboard configuration wooooo
04:50:21 <zzo38> What is the command to tell aptitude and other package managers to load the packages from a DVD?
04:51:36 <Bike> surely aptitude is agnostic, you just gotta mount the device and do whatever
04:51:49 <Bike> dpkg -i /media/fuckparty2004.deb
04:54:14 <zzo38> How do you tell to temporarily specify to access DVD for its built-in list of packages? I know proxy is possible, as I have seen it done.
04:55:39 <zzo38> I think 7-Zip can also open .deb packages
04:56:07 <zzo38> 7-Zip supports many formats, including a few which are not mentioned in the documentation.
04:58:17 <ion> zzo38: If a DVD has a proper repository, you should be able to use apt-cdrom add. If you just want to install a random .deb file, dpkg --unpack foo.deb && apt-get -f install
04:59:11 <zzo38> In fact, it opens Visual Pinball table files just fine. It also opens sections of a EXE file just fine, too.
04:59:11 <zzo38> Not only was I curious myself, but someone else who was purchasing a laptop computer from Free Geek wanted to know how to do this, too.
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05:01:16 <zzo38> Once, I was trying to download additional music for PySol. For some reason, it was distributed as a Macintosh disk image, but I tried to open it with 7-Zip and it worked.
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05:02:35 <Bike> urgh. reminds me of when i tried marathon mods
05:02:37 <zzo38> I don't know whether or not 7-Zip is available on Linux or Macintosh computers, but probably it can be ported if it isn't.
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05:02:46 <Bike> there's a bonus level that you get by decompressing some hex in the game, twice
05:02:56 <Bike> the catch being the compression format didn't outlive the mac 9
05:03:20 <zzo38> Bike: Did you try 7-Zip? See if it manages to open it.
05:03:58 <Bike> looks like the mac program does open 7z :/
05:04:36 <Bike> the format was proprietary so 7zip would probably have something weird with it
05:04:38 <zzo38> Don't download the "7za" 7-Zip because it is more limited. You need the full version, although you can safely delete the GUI if you do not want it (this is what I did).
05:08:39 <zzo38> If a file contains multiple archive types, you can tell 7-Zip which one to open.
05:09:35 <Bike> anyway back when i tried it seemed like only this program could open it, and possibly only an old version
05:17:23 <madbr> zzo38: the gui is like 80% of why 7zip is good
05:17:35 <madbr> the other 20% being that it supports tons of formats
05:17:51 <zzo38> madbr: I don't need the GUI, though. But it is there if you like it!
05:18:24 <zzo38> I just use the tons of formats, myself, and the command-line interface is actually good how I find it, too.
05:19:15 <madbr> also, integration into the explorer is nice
05:21:40 <zzo38> It can, although I do not need it.
05:24:34 <zzo38> Do you know of any music tracker software with two more windows, a SQL window and a MML compiler window? The SQL window can help for editing and MML window can help for writing music, then.
05:28:18 <madbr> don't know of any trackers using sql or mml
05:30:34 <madbr> usually they are based around a specialized GUI component - the pattern editor (the "grid"), editing music data in a custom binary format
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05:31:34 <zzo38> That can be useful to view and tweak music, although I do not find it useful for composing music at all. It also makes the binary format limited in some ways, since it has to fit on the grid.
05:31:57 <zzo38> I am not suggesting to remove such thing, though.
05:32:56 <zzo38> What I mean is that if you want to do something such as "swap channel 2 with channel 3" then you would enter a SQL command to do that, or if you want to detect which instruments are used and what range of notes, you can use SQL command to do that too.
05:33:32 <madbr> the real reason for the grid's limitations is screen space
05:34:17 <madbr> if you add more flexibility then you will have too much data to display in your fixed size cell
05:34:21 <zzo38> madbr: Yes, that is one of the things making the grid's limitations, which is also part of the file format's limitations
05:34:41 <zzo38> For example, you cannot have a lot of effects at once.
05:34:55 <madbr> the cell cannot vary in height otherwise it would break the layout
05:36:04 <madbr> the max number of effects also has to stay constant
05:36:19 <zzo38> What you could do is if the cell contains a single effect, it is specified normally; if more than one, you can have a "effect icon" consisting of several colors and if clicked, then you get a window to view/edit each one.
05:36:28 <madbr> so that you can display easy to read column
05:36:51 <madbr> zzo38 : in theory yes
05:37:03 <madbr> zzo38 : but that sounds inconvenient
05:37:33 <madbr> breaks your muscle memory for doing fast editing
05:38:00 <zzo38> It would be inconvenient for writing music, but if you are using the MML compiler to write the music and the grid to view/tweak it, then it works. Furthermore, if you are writing music using the grid, you can still use single effects just as easily as before.
05:38:31 <zzo38> And, editing using SQL could also work just as well, too.
05:39:05 <zzo38> Another thing that might introduce multiple effects as once would be MIDI record.
05:39:19 <madbr> midi record is a problem yes
05:40:32 <zzo38> I currently use OpenMPT for viewing and playing music of various formats (and to export instruments and so on).
05:41:38 <madbr> openmpt is designed for writing songs
05:42:26 <zzo38> I don't really find it so suitable for such thing though, although yes it can be used for such, too.
05:46:36 <madbr> like, the whole purpose of the program is to write new music
05:46:52 <zzo38> It can be used for existing music too though
05:48:42 <zzo38> For writing music I generally use ppMCK, Csound, or just write them as PLAY commands in QBASIC.
05:49:19 <madbr> isn't qbasic's play command monophonic?
05:49:54 <zzo38> Yes, it is monophonic, although I have used it.
05:51:48 <zzo38> In Csound, there are several different programs for editing score (and some edit the orchestra for you too), and some people just write the score and/or orchestra directly in a text editor. I didn't find any of the score editors or the standard format so good, so I wrote my own score compiler, although I just type in the orchestra directly.
05:52:33 <zzo38> The Csound numeric score format looks to highly resemble tracker-style formats, so a tracker-style interface for Csound could probably use Csound's own format as their native format.
05:52:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Cheese]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39794 * 66.215.55.141 * (+53) Created page with "ok I am confused, anybody want to help me understand?"
05:57:59 <Sgeo> Cheese++ compiler written in Cheese+ which has an interpreter in Cheese
05:58:46 <zzo38> Even when I am using ppMCK, it isn't quite the standard one; I have added a few things, the most useful being the * and ? commands, which I use a lot.
05:59:00 <Sgeo> I assume that Cheese itself is ultimately implemented in Feather, considering the time oddities involved
05:59:14 <zzo38> So in CsoundMML I have also implemented the * and ? commands.
06:01:08 <madbr> you're compiling to csound's score format from mml? :D
06:01:47 <madbr> I guess that shows that csound's score format might not be good and should've been mml in first place? :D
06:02:47 <zzo38> madbr: I don't know; probably it depends on preference. Some people do write music directly in Csound's score format. Some people prefer GUI. A few other people have written programs similar to MML for Csound, but not as good in my opinion.
06:03:43 <zzo38> And if I am just doing simple sound effects, and not writing a song, I find Csound score format reasonable too.
06:04:06 <madbr> everything is good enough for simple sound effects
06:05:00 <zzo38> Often in such a case, the score will only contain possibly some tables and one event, and then write the sound effect in the orchestra.
06:07:16 <zzo38> I much prefer the Csound format over VST (although Csound does support VST, in both directions).
06:08:31 <zzo38> New effects can be written as combinations of existing effects, or by writing a Csound extension in C.
06:11:56 <zzo38> Some people prefer to compose music by writing it on a paper. I can do that too, especially if I am writing in four-part harmony.
06:12:28 <zzo38> But someone I know, just play piano and never writes it down at all.
06:13:03 <zzo38> (He says he can never get the timing correct when writing it down or putting it into the computer.)
06:14:44 <zzo38> Do you use OpenMPT yourself at all?
06:17:20 <zzo38> Sgeo: Then now write the Cheeeese+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++!!!! compiler, too.
06:19:11 <madbr> I use impulse tracker which is the precursor
06:19:36 <zzo38> Yes I knew that is a DOS program
06:20:40 <madbr> in fact most of my musical output is still done in that
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06:21:40 <zzo38> I did not know that.
06:24:32 <zzo38> Impulse Tracker format is more sophisticated than MOD and S3M at least, so it does allow more effects at once, by putting some in the volume column, some in the effect column, some in the sample data, and some in the instrument data. To me that looks like somewhat of a mess.
06:24:51 <madbr> yeah but I never use the volume column for effects
06:25:01 <madbr> it's there for volume only
06:25:33 <madbr> otherwise you run into the problem that you can't adjust volume anymore if you use it
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06:26:06 <zzo38> There are a few effects which work in the volume column though, as I have read the format specifications, although I did not pay much attention how much it is used; but I do think usually they are only volume
06:26:31 <madbr> some other people might use them yes
06:27:47 <zzo38> The instrument data can also contain volume and panning though
06:29:04 <madbr> yeah I use some of the panning stuff in instruments
06:29:10 <madbr> along with channel panning
06:32:24 <fizzie> I've written an Impulse Tracker file player once; it did feel like somewhat of a mess.
06:32:46 <madbr> fizzie : yeah it's not a particularly clean spec
06:33:02 <zzo38> To me it doesn't make much sense to make such a mess inside of the file format; to me is more sensible having external program compiling such effect into the correct sequences needed in the file, and then the player does not need to know about them.
06:33:18 <madbr> has bizzarre throwbacks to stuff like amiga pitch clock frequencies :D
06:34:30 <madbr> zzo38 : that's like, a baked output format
06:34:50 <madbr> like the old genesis music format that was a dump of all register writes
06:34:55 <zzo38> madbr: Yes, I think it would work better.
06:35:08 <madbr> it would have to be a two step thing
06:35:13 <zzo38> An alternative would be to use a VM, like .NSF uses.
06:35:22 <madbr> you'd need a format for editing the data
06:35:41 <madbr> and then a second format for exporting the data to external players
06:36:00 <zzo38> madbr: Yes, you would need such a thing, certainly. But I still think it would work better, and make it more extensible without modifying the players.
06:36:06 <madbr> yeah nsf is a good example of second format
06:36:51 <madbr> "preparsed .it" would be a useful thing yes
06:36:53 <zzo38> Yes and there are a few different programs to compile into .NSF: NerdTracker, FamiTracker, ppMCK, etc.
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06:42:03 <zzo38> fizzie: If we make the "preparsed .it" format would you work it better then?
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06:48:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lii]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39795&oldid=39789 * GermanyBoy * (-5) /* Natural numbers via linked lists */
06:53:29 <fizzie> It would certainly have made my player simpler, but it was a one-off thing for a friend who needed a small executable, not a general IT player thing that I'd keep working on.
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06:54:38 <zzo38> I could still try to make such format and other people can question/complain about it, and put it in library which is playing such file
06:56:36 <zzo38> I think it would improve it a lot. Not only make the player simpler, but also allow editors to add their own features much more easily, and make it much more easily to write a MML compiler targeting it.
06:57:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:Declarative paradigm]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39796&oldid=23621 * GermanyBoy * (+24)
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07:22:32 <zzo38> I hav idea a new kind of poker game, based on Texas Hold'em. One thing is that each player now plays two hands; each hand keeps their own score and bets separately though, except that one is "leader" and the one after that in the same team is called a "supporter", such that the supporter cannot reraise the leader. There are also other rules having to do with limits, lives, and other things.
07:41:40 <zzo38> How common would it be in a poker game if you really don't want your opponent to see your cards, for some reason? (I don't know why, but maybe it might be possible somehow?) In such a case, it might make sense to fold if check is an option, but only after the river card has been dealt.
07:47:25 <zzo38> Or maybe someone wants to influence the decisions made by other players, when there are more than two players in the game.
07:52:56 <Taneb> Oh hey, it's apparently Transgender Awareness Week or something
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07:58:49 <olsner> I did a sid player based on "preparsed sid" a while ago, but it seems that the original 6502 code is a quite good compression format for SID register writes
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08:03:31 <zzo38> Yes, it does do that.
08:03:44 <zzo38> Although for register write formats, there is VGM, is one thing for that.
08:04:51 <zzo38> 6502 codes can certainly help to compress and do other things, then you only need to emulate the 6502 instruction set and whatever effects are used, can be added on by programmed in 6502 codes. NSF is also based on 6502 codes.
08:05:10 <mroman> what's the conventional business e-mail response time?
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09:03:20 <oerjan> turns out trying to join another server without telling irssi it's _not_ freenode gets you disconnected from the usual ones, huh
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09:05:40 <mroman> I run multiple irssis in a screen session
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09:07:21 <oerjan> i _really_ _really_ don't seem to get how to connect to more than one server D:
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09:08:49 <mroman> You suck at connecting to multiple servers .
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09:13:38 <shachaf> oerjan: how are you doing it
09:13:48 <shachaf> oerjan: i just /connect irc.some.server
09:14:26 <oerjan> shachaf: oh i used /server
09:15:42 <oerjan> ok. i actually found out how to use /server (needs to add a + before the connection)
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09:16:19 <shachaf> /SERVER disconnects the server in active window and connects to the new one. It will take the same arguments as /CONNECT. If you prefix the address with the + character, Irssi won't disconnect the active server, and it will create a new window where the server is connected (ie. /window new hide; /connect address)
09:16:26 <shachaf> ...I walked into that one.
09:17:01 <shachaf> So much for trying to help people.
09:17:41 <shachaf> (do you see what happened there it was funny)
09:18:04 <HackEgo> numcoin ortcoin triicoin pongcoin boancoin sqrcoin postentcoin mechuygenecoin catcococoin devezcoin hinkleicoin eceicoin kvilcoin titlecoin half-modecoin camantolcoin bracoin interwangcoin brbcoin objectdiscoin
09:18:14 <kmc> interwangcoin
09:18:24 <kmc> whither fungot
09:18:40 <oerjan> shachaf: how's life on the disconnects network
09:18:43 <kmc> Taneb: is it? i thought that was in november
09:18:47 <kmc> or is that only in USA
09:19:19 <shachaf> oerjan: v. disconnected hth
09:19:34 <Taneb> kmc, isn't that asexuality awareness week?
09:20:45 <Taneb> Well, my student union is running a transgender awareness week this week it seems
09:21:33 <Taneb> Hmm, there does seem to be one in November too
09:21:58 <Taneb> And Asexual awareness week is at the end of October
09:22:53 <kmc> i started wearing skirts to work this week
09:23:41 <oerjan> when then is asexual transgender awareness week
09:24:00 <oerjan> it's just a matter of time and you know it
09:24:23 <Taneb> oerjan, November 2 - November 9
09:25:06 <kmc> hi shachaf
09:25:08 <oerjan> Taneb: no that's plain transgender awareness week, pay attention!
09:25:31 <Taneb> oerjan, that's November 10 - November 17 I thought
09:26:03 <kmc> awareness is a double-edged sword :<
09:26:45 <b_jonas> kmc: or a double-sided coin
09:27:12 <HackEgo> ihaxtcoin mechalcrcoin domcoin oousecoin axingcoin oxberatcoin curschefcoin wadstuffocoin poimefulcoin c-londitone90000coin glastrcoin eodorcoin whocoin madna#coin kelxcoin valk:brainlovecoin lazycoin hq9+coin librilllcoin temcoin
09:28:52 <oerjan> anyway do you remember that cocytus guy who was here briefly looking for the other kind of esoterica, when i tried to join ircnet the first time it also joined the #esoteric channel there (because i forgot to tell irssi that it was ircnet) and there e was. unfortunately e seemed idle.
09:30:47 <Taneb> What even is the other kind of esoterica
09:31:56 <kmc> while you are letting your guard down / i will be letting myself go / while you keep running your ship aground / i will be setting myself alight
09:32:01 <Taneb> kmc, when you said that awareness is a double-edged sword, was there anything specific you were referring to?
09:32:43 <Taneb> It feels like that conversation was cut off
09:33:51 <kmc> Taneb: http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2014/06/on-depression-privilege-and-online.html
09:33:56 <kmc> content warning: depression, privilege, online activism
09:34:47 <zzo38> After a few moments of thoughtful deliberation, I lean forward and declare my decision into the microphone. "Monty, I'd like to switch to Door Number 3. In fact, it's always to my advantage to switch based on the facts you've presented." The crowd gasps! Someone from the audience shouts, "That's not correct, switching doesn't matter since each door has an equal probability of of hiding the car." Only one of us is right, but which one is it?
09:35:43 <zzo38> I have seen this before and see that it is better to switch than not, but, according to how it is mentioned there, exactly one of us is right, therefore it doesn't matter which one, if you switch anyways, it won't be at a disadvantage.
09:35:53 <zzo38> kmc: Yes I know that but that isn't the point I am making
09:36:57 <oerjan> ...is there anyone here who _hasn't_ already seen the monty hall problem discussed ad nauseam
09:37:39 <zzo38> This specific point is one I have not seen, but other than that yes I certainly has already seen and probably so has anyone else here
09:37:55 <kmc> let's talk about newcomb's problem instead
09:38:00 <kmc> omega as gameshow host
09:39:09 <zzo38> Omega is a gameshow host?
09:39:29 <zzo38> I thought omega is Greek alphabets.
09:40:32 <oerjan> the thing that annoys me about monty hall discussions is that everyone has an implicit setup in mind that is rarely fully stated and which greatly affects the probabilities _even_ if you understand them.
09:41:23 <shachaf> is it related to how they might not offer to switch in the first place depending on your choice?
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09:42:16 <shachaf> you don't actually know which game you're playing, or at least one of the rules is just implicit
09:42:46 <mroman> My understanding of the monty problem is, that you can eliminate one door
09:43:01 <mroman> although the moderator does the elimination, but that doesn't really matter
09:43:10 <zzo38> I have quite thought of those things already
09:43:11 <mroman> he gives you three doors, and you can eleminate one bad door
09:43:20 <mroman> which is rougly the same as choosing two doors
09:43:34 <shachaf> there are multiple monty problems and they're indistinguishable without some extra information about how the game actually works
09:43:35 <zzo38> Although, I assume that the rules are mentioned before the game is played.
09:45:00 <oerjan> mroman: the problem is usually stated "in medias res", so you don't actually know what the rules are, just that you're giving the opportunity to switch _this_ time.
09:45:08 <mroman> although that doesn't really help understanding why it's better to switch
09:45:26 <kmc> perhaps bonghits will fix my transport layer security
09:45:26 <oerjan> and it _could_ be, in theory, that you only get that offer if the car is behind the door you originally chose.
09:46:02 <zzo38> I have thought about the probabilities carefully and determine it is better to switch. I then programmed a simulation in the computer to check the same thing.
09:47:31 <zzo38> Another variant I have seen is you get additionally $100 if you decide not to switch. Such thing might depend how much the car is then worth, and possibly, whether behind the other doors are empty or have goats (both ways have been seen).
09:48:00 <FireFly> If you choose a door with a goat, do you get to keep the goat?
09:48:09 <mroman> can't you then calculate your earnings expectancy
09:48:33 <zzo38> FireFly: I would assume so, but it isn't actually clear.
09:48:36 <mroman> there's a 2/3 chance you win the car?
09:48:43 <zzo38> I have also thought of the game where the host reveals one of the other two doors at random even if one of them does have a car. I could not figure it out then.
09:49:09 <mroman> but there can't be a 1/3 chance you win the car and the money though
09:50:05 <mroman> if you stay there's a 1/3 chance you win the car and the money?
09:50:21 <mroman> and if you switch there's a 2/3 chance you just win the car
09:50:39 <oerjan> zzo38: i assume you don't get to switch if a car is revealed?
09:51:00 <mroman> wouldn't that mean that your expectancy is (2/3)*car + (1/3)*(car+100$)
09:51:01 <zzo38> oerjan: You could but it wouldn't help, since you have to switch to the other closed door
09:51:04 <mroman> which would be more than a car
09:51:24 <shachaf> why can't you switch to the car door
09:51:30 <mroman> that' doesn't work that way hm.
09:51:32 <zzo38> shachaf: Because it is open!
09:51:39 <shachaf> just because it's been opened? that's ruled out in the original formulation because you know there's a goat behind it
09:52:24 <zzo38> mroman: I think you have to make the expectancy separately each choice?
09:52:57 <oerjan> zzo38: hm i think in the case where a door is revealed at random is equivalent to always revealing the second door.
09:53:13 <zzo38> shachaf: If that is how it is ruled out, well, it works if it is consider as win/lose game, but if that isn't the consideration, then what if you already have a car but you don't have any goat yet?
09:53:23 <mroman> zzo38: Let's assume you role a dice to decide
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09:53:42 <mroman> then there's a 1/2 chance that you have a 2/3 chance to win the car
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09:53:50 <zzo38> mroman: O, in that case then yes you do add them up. But you shouldn't decide at random anyways
09:53:53 <mroman> and there's a 1/2 chance that you have 1/3 chance to win the car + the car
09:54:25 <mroman> > (1/2)*(2/3)*10000 + (1/2)*(1/3)*(10000+100)
09:54:58 <mroman> > (1/2)*(2/3)*10000 + (1/2)*(1/3)*(10000)
09:55:11 <shachaf> you open the third door and behind it is an argument about the monty hall problem
09:55:14 <zzo38> O, so the car is worth $10000.
09:55:15 <mroman> You can expect half a car from the monty problem
09:55:28 <zzo38> Then it is solved, of course.
09:55:32 <mroman> which somehow means that your chance of winning is 50:50?
09:55:52 <mroman> but that's probably an intuitive misjudgement of statistics of mine
09:56:05 <zzo38> But if you have not seen the car before, then you just have to guess how much it is worth.
09:56:05 <mroman> If I can expect to win half the price
09:56:13 <mroman> does that imply that my chance of winning the price is 50:50?
09:56:25 <oerjan> `addquote <shachaf> you open the third door and behind it is an argument about the monty hall problem
09:56:26 <HackEgo> 1206) <shachaf> you open the third door and behind it is an argument about the monty hall problem
09:56:45 <zzo38> (And, of course, if it isn't about winning, an additional consideration must additionally be made as I have mentioned above.)
09:57:21 <oerjan> i'd assume most cars are worth more money than most goats, but maybe not everywhere.
09:57:27 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, you argue about it in the third door, now all three different things.
09:58:50 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, I also believe so, but my consideration about the goat was about if it isn't about winning.
09:59:39 <oerjan> zzo38: if the door is revealed at random, there is 1/3 prob. you don't get to switch, 1/3 prob. it's best to switch, and 1/3 prob. it's best to stay. so on the condition you _can_ switch, it's 50-50 and it makes no difference whether you do or not.
10:00:21 <oerjan> oh it's that day again.
10:00:49 <FireFly> Maybe the car is a rusty, used volvo from 1995
10:01:20 <zzo38> oerjan: That was my conclusion too actually
10:01:31 <oerjan> (testing of air raid sirenes)
10:01:58 <Taneb> Is Norway at that much risk of air raids?
10:02:04 <FireFly> no that was monday last week (I think)
10:02:06 <mroman> The fun fact is, that if you decide by a coin toss whether to switch or not
10:02:26 <oerjan> Taneb: not recently, knock on wood. they test them twice a year nevertheless.
10:02:27 <mroman> you'r chance of winning is 1/2 * 2/3 + 1/2 * 1/3 = 1/2
10:02:37 <zzo38> Then the coin will fall under the closed door and you will lose one cent.
10:02:43 <mroman> which is still better than staying
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10:03:00 <oerjan> second wednesday of january and june
10:03:22 <mroman> so those people who say that your chance of winning is 1/2 are actually right
10:03:30 <mroman> if you decide randomly!
10:05:49 <zzo38> What is the formal logic to have such thing as, if it is either better to switch or it doesn't matter, then it implies that you ought to switch?
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10:06:10 <FireFly> oerjan: good, thanks. coordinating attack on norway...
10:07:00 <oerjan> FireFly: i've thought about that idea.
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10:09:42 <FireFly> To return the favour, the best time to attack Sweden would be at 15:00 the first may of every third month, though I don't remember which months
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10:10:42 <FireFly> since I recall there being a test last monday I guess it's the last month of each quarter
10:11:13 <oerjan> the first may of every third month sounds a little hard to calculate, to be honest
10:12:09 <kmc> oerjan: they test them every tuesday here at noon
10:12:33 <kmc> http://localwiki.net/sf/Tuesday_Noon_Siren
10:13:12 <kmc> "The San Francisco Office of Emergency Services & Homeland Security urges those who live or work in San Francisco to consider the siren as a weekly reminder to compile an emergency-preparedness kit capable of sustaining themselves and their dependents for 72 hours."
10:13:27 <kmc> ""We had two bags of grass, 75 pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a saltshaker half-full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers... Also, a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether, and two dozen amyls. Not that we needed all that for the trip, but once you get locked into a serious drug collection, the tendency is to push it as far as
10:14:58 <oerjan> i am not sure that emergency kit is government approved, kmc
10:16:01 <oerjan> i suppose it makes _slightly_ more sense if it's also used for earthquakes, but still i feel a slight urge to make a paranoia index out of this.
10:16:45 <oerjan> number of siren tests per year
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10:18:27 <kmc> no matter how drunk I get I haven't let my laptop run out of battery
10:18:47 <kmc> i got up in the middle of a threesome once to plug it in
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10:23:24 <shachaf> copumpkin: yo did you ever read that thing you were going to read
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10:32:31 <oerjan> @tell Bike <Bike> francis i, i think <-- i think the i is not official until they get another francis
10:36:11 <mroman> zzo38: It may also depend on whether you're an observer on the outside or not
10:36:26 <mroman> You could argue that an outsider doesn't know whether the participant switches or not
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10:36:58 <mroman> and if you model it as a 50:50 switch, so are the chance of winning for the participant 50:50 too
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10:49:07 <mroman> three prisoner problem
10:49:12 <mroman> isn't that somehow related to the monty one?
10:49:26 <mroman> A knows, that B is to be executed
10:49:37 <mroman> (that's like monty telling you which door is a goat)
10:49:53 <mroman> if A were to switch his identity with C
10:50:01 <mroman> (that's like switching the door)
10:50:08 <mroman> would that mean that his chances are now 2/3?
10:51:03 <mroman> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Prisoners_problem
10:52:22 <mroman> i.e. you can imagine, that they have a bag over their had and just a name tag, they can't speak or anything
10:52:34 <mroman> which means, that it would actually be plausible to switch "identities"
10:54:23 <int-e> Ok, that's nicely detailed. (flipping a coin is quite crucial)
10:54:52 <int-e> Of course A is silly to assume that his chances improved. :)
10:55:34 <mroman> int-e: at least because the governor already decided
10:55:51 <mroman> no information he receives afterwards could have possibly influenced the governors decision
10:56:32 <mroman> but it would make sense that you can't change a decision by disclosing information about it afterwards
10:56:34 <int-e> Well, C's chances do improve.
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10:56:58 <kmc> oerjan: I don't think you can much warn of an earthquake, anyway
10:57:32 <int-e> mroman: There's information in the fact that A tells the news to C rather than B.
10:57:48 <kmc> i feel like i'm reading a random acausal decision theory problem generator
10:59:01 <int-e> mroman: In 2/3 of the cases that A tells the news to C, C is actually pardoned; likewise, in 2/3 of the cases that A tells the news to B, B is pardoned. This does not change the overall odds at all.
11:00:56 <mroman> well.. at least this means that A can increase his chance to 2/3 by switching identities with C
11:02:31 <mroman> or is that wrongg too?
11:02:35 <mroman> so he should have killed C and taken his place if he knew anything about statistics
11:02:38 <mroman> although these statistics are really weird
11:02:38 <Taneb> That's so macabre I am glad I am crap at stats
11:02:45 <mroman> I don't really see why your chance of winning can possibly increase after the decision was already made
11:02:48 <int-e> I'm not sure that killing somebody is a good way of getting pardoned.
11:03:09 <int-e> mroman: they increase to 100% for the survivor after the executions have taken place
11:03:28 <mroman> at the point he chose which to pardon everyone had a 1/3 chance of winning
11:03:41 <mroman> there's no reason why that chance should alter o_O
11:04:09 <int-e> it's just conditional probabilities.
11:04:37 <int-e> The guard divulges information about the choice after all.
11:05:58 <mroman> yeah. But that information has no effect on the "choosing procedure"
11:06:00 <mroman> how could it, the procuder had already been done
11:06:02 <int-e> mroman: You're viewing it wrong, really.
11:06:41 <int-e> After the choice has been made, one of the prisoners has a 100% chance of being pardoned, and the other two will be executed.
11:06:49 <mroman> you calculate the chance based on information you know about the result
11:06:52 <mroman> which means you already know parts of the result
11:06:52 <int-e> The probabilities that we're discussing are uncertainties arising from incomplete information.
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11:18:43 <b_jonas> I don't know what the instruction manual coveres it, but if C is pardonned and the warden names B, he may find it difficult to prove that he named B because of the coin flip rather than because of the truth he knew
11:18:54 <b_jonas> so if he doesn't want conflict with the governor, it's easier to just not ansewr
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11:33:32 <mroman> in reality nobody would be pardoned .
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11:56:43 <kmc> sorry about all of that
11:56:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cois: not found
11:56:54 <HackEgo> katurketercoin rincoin villgolationcoin backcoin orkovacoin ijlcoin thamptlypaniquishyncoin lambergiuncoin fobcoin sandcoin coborocoin m-codcoin fagecoin scacoin gieramblcoin chiecoin oveacoin lombricoin charghumcoin tedcoin
11:57:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: doges: not found
11:57:51 <kmc> no doge for you
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12:00:22 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
12:00:35 <HackEgo> 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ UNPA \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
12:00:35 <HackEgo> 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ UNPA \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
12:02:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: :-D: not found
12:02:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: catr: not found
12:03:26 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
12:05:09 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input "$@" >> complaints; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.
12:05:19 <int-e> `ls -la complaints
12:05:20 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
12:05:22 <int-e> ``ls -la complaints
12:05:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `ls: not found
12:05:25 <int-e> `` ls -la complaints
12:05:28 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 5000 9 Apr 23 02:27 complaints -> /dev/null
12:05:41 <int-e> It's the proper BOFH way of handling complaints.
12:07:36 <FireFly> `run file * | grep -v directory
12:07:37 <HackEgo> 98076: ASCII text, with CRLF line terminators \ a: empty \ app.sh: POSIX shell script, ASCII text executable \ bdsmreclist: ASCII text \ canary: ASCII text \ cat: ASCII text \ complaints: symbolic link to `/dev/null' \ :-D: UTF-8 Unicode text \ dog: UTF-8 Unicode text \ fb: ELF 64-bit LSB
12:08:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `:-D: not found
12:08:06 <HackEgo> bash: :-D: command not found
12:08:09 <HackEgo> bash: ./:-D: Permission denied
12:08:19 <HackEgo> chmod: cannot access `x': No such file or directory
12:08:27 <HackEgo> ./:-D: line 1: $'\342\230\272': command not found
12:08:57 <FireFly> PS. I think it's a unicode smiley
12:09:50 <mroman> It's chances of being executed rather than pardoned just increased a lot
12:10:10 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 5000 6356 Apr 23 02:27 fb
12:10:26 <FireFly> `run file -i * | grep -v directory | sed -r 's/\s+/ /g'
12:10:27 <HackEgo> 98076: text/plain; charset=us-ascii \ a: inode/x-empty; charset=binary \ app.sh: text/x-shellscript; charset=us-ascii \ bdsmreclist: text/plain; charset=us-ascii \ canary: text/plain; charset=us-ascii \ cat: text/plain; charset=us-ascii \ complaints: inode/symlink; charset=binary \ :-D: text/plain; charset=utf-8 \ dog: text/plain; charset=utf-8 \ f
12:10:49 <int-e> `` cat dog # cheap pun!
12:11:22 <int-e> Oh that's too much for my fonts.
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12:12:46 <FireFly> I'm tempted to try to work around that, but I probably shouldn't
12:13:27 <HackEgo> drwxr-xr-x 14 5000 5000 4096 Jun 11 12:12 .
12:13:57 <int-e> how badly would hackego break after chmod -x . ?
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12:16:21 <HackEgo> total 1980 \ drwxr-xr-x 14 5000 5000 4096 Jun 11 12:12 . \ drwxr-xr-x 15 0 0 0 Jun 11 12:16 .. \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 373 Apr 23 02:27 98076 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 0 Apr 23 02:27 a \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 5000 68 Apr 23 02:27 app.sh \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 31 Apr 23 02:27 bdsmreclist \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 5000
12:16:24 <HackEgo> total 1980 \ drwxr-xr-x 14 5000 5000 4096 Jun 11 12:12 . \ drwxr-xr-x 15 0 0 0 Jun 11 12:16 .. \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 373 Apr 23 02:27 98076 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 0 Apr 23 02:27 a \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 5000 68 Apr 23 02:27 app.sh \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 31 Apr 23 02:27 bdsmreclist \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 5000
12:16:43 <HackEgo> 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ UNPA \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
12:16:47 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 5000 18 Apr 23 02:27 bin/`
12:16:53 <HackEgo> cat: bin/\`: No such file or directory
12:17:11 <HackEgo> 98076 a app.sh bdsmreclist bin canary cat complaints :-D dog etc factor fb fb.c head hello hello.c ibin index.html interps lib paste pref prefs quines quotes share src test Test Test.hi Test.hs UNPA Wierd wisdom wisdom.pdf
12:17:25 <HackEgo> 98076 a app.sh bdsmreclist bin canary cat complaints :-D dog etc factor fb fb.c head hello hello.c ibin index.html interps lib paste pref prefs quines quotes share src test Test Test.hi Test.hs UNPA Wierd wisdom wisdom.pdf
12:17:25 <mroman> why does ls give something else then ls ./?
12:17:41 <HackEgo> total 1980 \ drwxr-xr-x 14 5000 5000 4096 Jun 11 12:12 . \ drwxr-xr-x 15 0 0 0 Jun 11 12:17 .. \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 373 Apr 23 02:27 98076 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 0 Apr 23 02:27 a \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 5000 68 Apr 23 02:27 app.sh \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 31 Apr 23 02:27 bdsmreclist \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 5000
12:17:56 <HackEgo> .: \ total 1980 \ drwxr-xr-x 14 5000 5000 4096 Jun 11 12:12 . \ drwxr-xr-x 15 0 0 0 Jun 11 12:17 .. \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 373 Apr 23 02:27 98076 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 0 Apr 23 02:27 a \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 5000 68 Apr 23 02:27 app.sh \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 31 Apr 23 02:27 bdsmreclist \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5
12:18:06 <mroman> does ls list recursively?
12:18:08 <HackEgo> 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ UNPA \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
12:18:11 <HackEgo> <oerjan> YOU are out of order.
12:18:12 <HackEgo> 98076 a app.sh bdsmreclist bin canary cat complaints :-D dog etc factor fb fb.c head hello hello.c ibin index.html interps lib paste pref prefs quines quotes share src test Test Test.hi Test.hs UNPA Wierd wisdom wisdom.pdf
12:18:17 <HackEgo> 98076 a app.sh bdsmreclist bin canary cat complaints :-D dog etc factor fb fb.c head hello hello.c ibin index.html interps lib paste pref prefs quines quotes share src test Test Test.hi Test.hs UNPA Wierd wisdom wisdom.pdf
12:18:23 <int-e> looks the same to me
12:18:30 <HackEgo> total 1980 drwxr-xr-x 14 5000 5000 4096 Jun 11 12:12 . drwxr-xr-x 15 0 0 0 Jun 11 12:18 .. -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 373 Apr 23 02:27 98076 -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 0 Apr 23 02:27 a -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 5000 68 Apr 23 02:27 app.sh -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 31 Apr 23 02:27 bdsmreclist drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 5000 4096 Jun 6 08:32 bin -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 6 Jun 11
12:18:31 <int-e> mroman: you hade a -la previously
12:18:53 <FireFly> `` diff <(ls -la) <(ls -la ./)
12:18:56 <HackEgo> . .. 98076 a app.sh bdsmreclist bin canary cat complaints :-D dog etc factor fb fb.c head hello hello.c .hg .hg_archival.txt ibin index.html interps lib paste pref prefs quines quotes share src test Test Test.hi Test.hs UNPA Wierd wisdom wisdom.pdf
12:19:11 <mroman> why doesn't la list hello.c?
12:19:31 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 5000 6479 Apr 23 02:27 hello \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 113 Apr 23 02:27 hello.c
12:20:04 <FireFly> it only responds with one IRC line, so the amount of output is fairly limited
12:22:59 <HackEgo> gcc: /usr/bin/gcc /usr/lib/gcc /usr/bin/X11/gcc
12:24:12 <int-e> `` paste < hello.c
12:25:01 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.30812
12:25:03 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.24635
12:25:41 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/hello.c
12:29:47 <int-e> huh, what kind of protocol is that?
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12:38:30 <HackEgo> [U+2639 WHITE FROWNING FACE]
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12:55:35 <mroman> `learn protocol Not to be confused with protocoal.
12:55:41 <HackEgo> protocol Not to be confused with protocoal.
12:56:54 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/protocol //' wisdom/protocol
12:56:54 <HackEgo> sed: can't read wisdom/protocol: No such file or directory
12:57:43 <oerjan> we have a forget command?
12:57:48 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ rm "wisdom/$(echo "$1" | tr A-Z a-z)" \ echo "Forget what?"
12:57:59 <HackEgo> protocol is not to be confused with protocoal
12:58:02 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wisdom/protoco:': No such file or directory \ Forget what?
12:58:07 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wisdom/protocol:': No such file or directory \ Forget what?
12:58:29 <mroman> I already corrected it
12:59:15 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl.
13:00:22 <oerjan> `run echo 'We could tell you what antediluvian means, but that would just open a flood of questions.' >wisdom/antediluvian
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13:04:34 <mroman> http://it.slashdot.org/story/14/06/09/1852218/kids-with-operators-manual-alert-bank-officials-we-hacked-your-atm?sbsrc=md
13:04:52 <mroman> I detect security by "you don't have our manual"
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15:48:57 <mroman> zzo38: Have you yet found out if you can do a*b-c with BANCSTar Arithmetic command?
15:49:09 <mroman> from the LIST source it looks like you can encode an operator in each operand
15:49:23 <mroman> but LIST seems to only look at the operator encoded in the fourth operand
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15:59:03 <mroman> also there are FORMS and SCREENS btw.
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16:22:31 <HackEgo> .gwG!oڕdB48Jr'_BXىjGtOzEAWq˵q͵{l5fu$^1=!hYl+ñ
16:24:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rsum: not found
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16:52:28 <HackEgo> 1140) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
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17:32:42 <Taneb> Someone here suspects that Lisp's list comprehensions are turing complete
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17:50:21 <int-e> > [x*y | x <- [1..3], y <- [1..5]]
17:50:23 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,2,4,6,8,10,3,6,9,12,15]
17:50:33 <int-e> I don't know what it looks like in Lisp.
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17:56:02 <int-e> fungot is with us again, the world is saved
17:56:03 <fungot> int-e: i meant gregorr-w: ps ( thread-id 5))
17:56:06 <zzo38> It is similar to do-notation though
17:57:07 <mroman> int-e: loop and collect
17:57:32 <int-e> zzo38: haskell started out with "monad comprehensions", but then there was a push for type errors that make sense to students who are just learning the language, and the syntax was restricted to lists.
17:57:57 <mroman> but esentially you can use regular lisp funccions in list comprehensions
17:58:01 <int-e> lately there's been a backwards trend, and ghc has monad comprehensions as an extension.
17:58:15 <int-e> @type [() | () <- undefined]
17:58:35 <mroman> loor for x from 1 to 10 (collect (* n n)))
17:58:36 <int-e> (with the extension, [() | () <- undefined] :: Monad m => m () )
17:58:57 <mroman> (loop for x from 1 to 10 (collect (* n n))) for example
17:58:59 <int-e> x/n, please choose one.
17:59:54 <int-e> > (do { x <- [1..10]; return (x*x) }, [x*x | x <- [1..10]])
17:59:56 <lambdabot> ([1,4,9,16,25,36,49,64,81,100],[1,4,9,16,25,36,49,64,81,100])
18:00:55 <mroman> Break 1 [2]> (loop for x from 1 to 10 collect (* x x))
18:00:56 <mroman> (1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100)
18:19:30 <int-e> Melvar: nope, since there is no guard in there.
18:19:52 <int-e> unlike [() | False] :: Control.Monad.MonadPlus m => m ()
18:22:18 <Melvar> ( [ x * y | x <- Right 2, y <- Left "no" ]
18:22:18 <idris-bot> When elaborating an application of function Prelude.Monad.return:
18:22:18 <idris-bot> Can't disambiguate name: Prelude.Classes.*, Prelude.Fin.*
18:22:55 <Melvar> ( [ the Integer $ x * y | x <- Right 2, y <- Left "no" ]
18:22:55 <idris-bot> (input):0:0:Incomplete term Right (fromInteger 2) >>= \x8 => Left "no" >>= \y11 => return (the Integer (x8 * y11))
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18:26:13 <Melvar> ( the (Either _ Integer) [ the Integer $ x * y | x <- Right 2, y <- Left "no" ]
18:26:41 <Melvar> Apparently that works without Alternative too.
18:29:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lii]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39797&oldid=39795 * GermanyBoy * (-10) /* Built-in classes */ corrected super classes
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18:32:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lii]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39798&oldid=39797 * GermanyBoy * (-5) /* Classes and methods */
18:46:14 <HackEgo> Thanks, barrucadu. Tharrucadu.
18:48:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rot26: not found
18:48:54 <int-e> `` cd bin; echo rot*
18:49:20 <int-e> `` ln -s rot0 bin/rot26
18:49:44 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input "$@" | tr a-zA-Z n-za-mN-ZA-M
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19:15:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:David.werecat]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39799&oldid=36193 * 198.7.62.204 * (-438)
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19:21:42 <Taneb> Help I seem to be in two different university's computer science society's IRC channel
19:23:56 <Bike> quick start a debate about how pure haskell is and leave in the confusion
19:25:54 <zzo38> Well, Haskell has many impure features such as lazy I/O, ability to catch errors from pure code without using a macro, and everything marked "unsafe".
19:26:41 <int-e> > id id id id id id id id id id id id id id id id id id id id id id id 1
19:27:52 <FireFly> `which print_args_or_input
19:27:53 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/print_args_or_input
19:27:58 <FireFly> `cat bin/print_args_or_input
19:27:59 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ "$#" -gt 0 ]; then printf '%s\n' "$*"; else cat; fi
19:28:50 <zzo38> Now do you know how you can debate and argue about how pure Haskell is and confusion?
19:29:37 <FireFly> waait, that shouldn't be id
19:29:50 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 5000 9 Apr 23 02:27 bin/rot256 -> /bin/echo
19:31:10 <HackEgo> id: --context (-Z) works only on an SELinux-enabled kernel
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19:40:47 <ion> http://1.usa.gov/QQYwSb
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19:43:02 <int-e> "Google Custom Search requires JavaScript" ... well, no thanks.
19:43:08 <int-e> (cute search terms though)
19:46:00 <int-e> "1.USA.gov URLs are created whenever anyone shortens a .gov or .mil URL using bitly."
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20:16:05 <Taneb> I did impress Edinburgh with my lensiness
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21:11:41 <zzo38> How to make German quotations with ISO-646?
21:17:17 <kmc> ,,old school''
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21:23:50 <zzo38> But I need to make German quotations with ISO-646
21:24:34 <kmc> they might be in some national variant but mostly ,,i think you do it like this''
21:25:17 <zzo38> Are you sure? I thought German quotations are different from that.
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21:26:08 <kmc> i don't know german
21:26:33 <zzo38> Neither do I, but I thought German quotations are not like that.
21:28:54 <FreeFull> That's what Polish quotations are like
21:28:59 <FreeFull> I don't know about German ones
21:29:12 <FreeFull> Except you'd use the actual unicode characters
21:29:24 <zzo38> But I don't need to make Polish quotations with ISO-646 anyways.
21:29:46 <zzo38> Only German and English (which is ASCII).
21:32:21 <kmc> ASCII is pretty incomplete for English typography, too
21:32:30 <kmc> but it has a decent enough approximation of quotation marks
21:32:40 <zzo38> I know but I don't need any more than what it has
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21:56:40 <Melvar> German: „foo“ ; English: “foo”
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22:15:25 <int-e> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anf%C3%BChrungszeichen
22:20:36 <zzo38> Apparently there is more than one kind?
22:20:51 <FireFly> `dis86 ea 00 00 ff ff 00 00 00
22:20:52 <HackEgo> invalid; add [rax], al; invalid; add [rax], al; invalid;
22:25:06 <FireFly> That is the content of a "BOOT.COM" that apparently triggers a reboot, at least in dosbox
22:25:07 <zzo38> I also look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_variation_in_quotation_marks and says German is using both the low/high mark like that and angle quotations marks too sometimes
22:25:48 <zzo38> FireFly: I think in dosbox, it may have some of its own instructions for executing the built-in commands on drive Z.
22:26:04 <FireFly> Well, the program definitely isn't dosbox-specific
22:26:27 <FireFly> I found it on an old floppy
22:28:00 <zzo38> Perhaps they worked on those computer.
22:28:40 <boily> they should make floppy-themed USB sticks.
22:30:47 <zzo38> There are floppy-disk USB.
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22:31:02 <zzo38> I have one, because the internal floppy disk drive broke.
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00:03:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TOD]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39800&oldid=39720 * Null * (-2)
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00:56:58 <Taneb> http and https don't seem to be working
00:57:23 <boily> the protocol itself, or you can't resolve?
00:57:49 <Taneb> Well, just chrome can't connect
01:00:33 <boily> kill chrome, gently power-toggle your router, stare at your modem, and launch firefox.
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01:04:36 <boily> meanwhile, finns are weird → http://i.imgur.com/7gSGv1S.jpg
01:06:26 <boily> (now, where is our resident finn when we need him?)
01:08:23 <boily> @tell fizzie YKSI! YKSI! YKSI!
01:14:06 <Taneb> boily, I slightly have no control of my router
01:14:15 <Taneb> I don't even know where it is
01:15:05 <boily> I suppose you don't have a small EMP device with you?
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01:22:37 <boily> the Mystery of the Possession of Magnetical Pulsing Machines shall be Resolved in the Next Episode. it is time to understand my mattress.
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01:30:42 <elliott> like you can't seriously be one person so interested in this channel over many many months??
01:31:36 <elliott> maybe all these "canaima"s are users of http://canaima.softwarelibre.gob.ve/
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01:35:32 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
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03:47:17 <zzo38> Do you know if ecliptic coordinates are fixed yet in Wolfram|Alpha?
04:37:09 <Bicyclidine> http://www.fang.ece.ufl.edu/reject.html this can't be real, can it
04:39:00 <shachaf> http://th.informatik.uni-mannheim.de/People/Lucks/reject.pdf
04:39:07 <elliott> The author mentions computing machines, such as the recent ENIAC. Well, I guess one could connect such machines, but a recent IBM memo stated that a dozen or so such machines will be sufficient for all the computing that we'll ever need in the foreseeable future, so there won't be a whole lot of connecting going on with only a dozen ENIACs!
04:39:33 <Bicyclidine> i was mostly thinking nobody would be dumb enough to think you need gotos for an if with multiple statements
04:39:39 <Bicyclidine> and it just got more obvious as i went down
04:40:04 <Bicyclidine> but, i've never receieved a letter about a paper, and actual papers can be really fucking bizarre, so who's to know
04:46:09 <Sgeo> I don't know what the C.A.R. Hoare thing relates to
04:53:33 <Sgeo> "It is always good practice to name your behavior with an alias that is the same as the callback module it is implemented in."
04:53:37 <Sgeo> http://aosabook.org/en/riak.html
04:53:48 <Sgeo> I'm confused. Doesn't that make the server effectively a global variable?
04:54:22 <Sgeo> "registering the process with the same name as the callback module,"
04:54:27 <Sgeo> It doesn't say to always do that
04:54:51 <Sgeo> But I still don't get how registered gen_server processes are any different from global mutable variables
04:57:12 <zzo38> Is this sensible? Can you draw it in diagramatic notation? outtext : () / ($1(iosys), $2(string) |- $3(++)); outtext = [io,s,z] cut true [t] fold s t z [ch,_,k] outbyte io ch k;
04:58:36 <Sgeo> "Note that validating the data sent to the server should occur on the client side. If the client sends incorrect information, the server should terminate."
04:58:59 <Sgeo> I know it's Erlang with crash early and the client itself is more trusted. But still, those are not words I expect to read
05:00:02 <Sgeo> crash early crash often
05:00:47 <zzo38> Someone once told me about a program that never crash because it did everything it needed to do in the time it took for the watchdog timer to run out, and then it just restarted automatically.
05:14:09 <zzo38> How can you add a new symbol to a logic together with a proof such that, assuming the system is consistent, that adding this symbol and the rules to go with it will not admit any new theorems which do not involve this symbol?
05:16:33 <zzo38> Furthermore, how can you make this proof to do stuff like a computer program does?
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05:27:05 <Bicyclidine> hm, what would a counterexample be? you could add a new reduction rule that reduces an expression of original symbols that wasn't reduced originally to something involving the new symbol
05:27:49 <Bicyclidine> on the other hand, you can't just ban all rules that do that, because then another rule might take it back to original symbols... except that reduction still wouldn't be in the original
05:43:51 <zzo38> I do not quite understand you.
05:49:43 <Bicyclidine> thinking more i don't think it's relevant to what you actually meant, souree
05:55:05 <zzo38> Perhaps that is why I do not understand.
05:57:36 <Bicyclidine> my mind's stuck in orgo, i'm thinking of shit like alkoxymercurationdemercuration where you throw some weird bullshit like merc(ii) acetate at a hydrocarbon but just get an ether out
05:59:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gentzen]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39801&oldid=39707 * Zzo38 * (+140)
06:00:36 <Bicyclidine> so, like, you're adding a reduction scheme that uses a novel intermediate but can still start and end with CHO
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07:55:26 <Taneb> The grand final for a programming competition my university has ran is today!
07:57:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bad: not found
07:57:30 <HackEgo> 193) <elliott> Getting bad programmers to like something is a failure.
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08:26:31 <shachaf> http://oeis.org/search?q=1%2C3%2C11%2C42%2C163
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08:37:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Th]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39802 * T.J.S.1 * (+2566) Suggested additions for turing-completeness.
08:37:28 <ion> Binary Metal http://youtu.be/dYBZMRWcEBk
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08:47:06 <HackEgo> [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER]
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08:48:49 <Taneb> Do you know whether Lisp's list comprehensions are turing complete?
08:49:00 <oerjan> i do not know lisp's list comprehensions.
08:49:10 <b_jonas> "Lisp's list comprehensions"?
08:49:39 <Taneb> A friend has suggested they may be turing complete
08:49:40 <b_jonas> do you mean python's or haskell's list comprehensions?
08:49:44 <Taneb> But I do not know them at all
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08:49:58 <Taneb> b_jonas, no, specifically Lisp's
08:50:40 <oerjan> unless they contain some unusual feature my hunch is no.
08:51:04 <oerjan> ordinary list comprehensions is a very primitive recursive thing, i think.
08:51:25 <b_jonas> which lisp? let me check cltl
08:52:50 <Taneb> I am afraid I do not know
08:53:03 <oerjan> BET YOUR FRIEND MADE IT UP HTH
08:53:21 <b_jonas> cltl doesn't seem to mention "comprehension"
08:54:11 <oerjan> Taneb: did you know that "prod" isn't very googleable hth
08:54:28 <Taneb> I was prodding qlkzy
08:54:34 <Taneb> He is the friend in question
08:54:58 * oerjan ogles qlkzy suspiciously
08:59:46 <oerjan> <int-e> zzo38: haskell started out with "monad comprehensions", [...] <-- no, list comprehensions came first, before monads were on the table. then there was an intermediate stage.
08:59:59 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> zzo38: haskell started out with "monad comprehensions", [...] <-- no, list comprehensions came first, before monads were on the table. then there was an intermediate stage.
09:01:22 <oerjan> "Burstall and Darlington's work with NPL influenced many functional programming languages during the 1980s, but not all included list comprehensions. An exception was the influential pure lazy functional programming language Miranda, which was released in 1985. The subsequently developed standard pure lazy functional language Haskell includes many of Miranda's features, including list comprehensions."
09:01:47 <myname> what the hell is monad comprehension
09:02:58 <oerjan> myname: you know how list comprehensions in haskell are equivalent in sugariness to the do-notation for the list monad? just do that transformation backwards for an arbitrary monad.
09:03:40 <oerjan> [ e1 | x <- e2, y <- e3 ] = do x <- e2; y <- e3; return e1
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09:05:08 <oerjan> enabled in ghc with {-# LANGUAGE MonadComprehensions #-}
09:07:40 <oerjan> there are also some linq-/sql-like additions for lists, which iirc have been extended to use monadic classes as well
09:09:03 <oerjan> > [ x+y | x <- Just 2, y <- Just 3 ]
09:09:04 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘[t]’
09:09:05 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘Data.Maybe.Maybe a0’Couldn't match expected ty...
09:09:05 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘Data.Maybe.Maybe a1’
09:09:05 <lambdabot> Relevant bindings include x :: t (bound at <interactive>:1:9)
09:10:21 <oerjan> oh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_comprehension#Common_Lisp looks relevant
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09:15:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NybbleScrambler]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39803 * Javamannen * (+1887) This is an idea for a very simple single-instruction (OISC) CPU.
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09:28:50 <b_jonas> ais523: also, you kept mentioning cyclic tag systems, and how either two stacks or a single queue is enough for turing-completeness.
09:29:18 <ais523> b_jonas: yeah, although it's not quite that simpel
09:29:24 <b_jonas> and now I've read a book which explains this about complexity theory (in a somewhat more precise way)
09:29:32 <b_jonas> and I think I understand it better now,
09:29:41 <ais523> you can invent a language with all sorts of memory access, but it's no good if it, say, doesn't have loops, or doesn't have a way to read the memory
09:29:42 <b_jonas> further, it also explained something I didn't understand:
09:29:57 <ais523> it's just in my "heuristics for guessing whether a language is probably Turing-complete"
09:30:00 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> meanwhile, finns are weird → http://i.imgur.com/7gSGv1S.jpg <-- one super-delicious ice cream hth
09:30:11 <b_jonas> it tells why the Post correspondence problem is undecidable.
09:30:22 <Taneb> b_jonas, Fueue is a fun language that is turing-complete with just a queue
09:30:53 <b_jonas> the reason is that the Post correspondance problem is just a machine with a single queue, except that it has only one state so the step can only depend on the unqueued elements, and it's nondeterministic,
09:31:06 <Taneb> I suppose you could treat Fueue as a complicated cyclic tag system?
09:31:09 <ais523> actually, I'd stop short of saying one queue is usually enough for Turing-completeness, I'd put the Turing-completeness of queue-based languages at "often"
09:31:19 <oerjan> Taneb: it's queue elements are actually rather over-powered for tc-ness, though
09:31:47 <oerjan> as in, they're not precisely symbols in an alphabet
09:31:54 <b_jonas> so it can simulate anything with a quadratic slowdown. the lack of state is no theoretical problem, though it might practically make it slower.
09:32:23 <b_jonas> ais523: and of course, I know it's just "often", not precise statements
09:33:30 <ais523> two stacks is more at the "usually" point
09:33:47 <oerjan> otoh to make do with only symbols in an alphabet you might need a program separate from the queue (or do you? i don't think i've seen any proof)
09:34:37 <b_jonas> It also told a bit about counter machines (equivalently pushdown automaton with multiple stacks where the stacks can contain only one symbol):
09:34:54 <shachaf> ais523: so is your thesis thing released or how does it all work
09:35:15 <b_jonas> I'm not sure I understand it correctly, but I think a counter machine with three (or more, unlimited) counters can simulate anything in exponential time,
09:35:27 <b_jonas> a counter machine with two counters can simulate anything in double-exponential time,
09:35:54 <ais523> shachaf: what do you mean by my "thesis thing"? my thesis is about lots of things
09:35:55 <b_jonas> and it said something about one counter being equivalent to a pushdown automaton, but I'm not sure I read that part right.
09:36:08 <ais523> wait, I have a meeting, I'll be back in a bit
09:37:30 <Taneb> Hang on, so, is like a... push-up? automaton turing complete?
09:38:03 <Taneb> Like a push-down automaton but with a queue
09:39:01 <oerjan> b_jonas: i think one counter is no stronger than a push-down automaton, but not strong enough to emulate _every_ pd automaton
09:39:02 <b_jonas> with a queue, yes, but I don't think that would be called push-up
09:39:36 <b_jonas> oerjan: it's clearly not stronger than a push-down automaton, because it's basically a push-down automaton that can have just one kind of symbol in its stack
09:40:59 <b_jonas> as for simulating any push-down automaton, I'm not sure I understood that right. I'm not even sure if it was supposed to be about deterministic or non-deterministic counter machine, and deterministic or non-deterministic pushdown automaton. I'll have to re-read,
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09:41:15 <b_jonas> and if it isn't clear, I may have to read another book, but more likely I won't care.
09:41:32 <oerjan> the other part is slightly subtler. actually not much though - if you ever get a loop that doesn't shrink the counter overall, without passing through 0, you're doomed to never halt
09:41:49 <b_jonas> I don't find these exponential time simulations too useful. In fact, I don't even like the quadratic slowdown simulations. I want quasi-linear.
09:41:53 <oerjan> (loop to the same state)
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09:44:30 <oerjan> b_jonas: i think even emulating a RAM machine with a turing machine has more slowdown than that?
09:44:52 <b_jonas> oerjan: it has a quadratic slowdown, yes.
09:45:23 <b_jonas> oerjan: that's why I don't like turing machines, and don't like how they (and string substitution machines and similar) has become sort of the most common model people invoke about computability
09:45:29 <b_jonas> I prefer pointer machines and similar
09:46:23 <b_jonas> luckily, for NP-completeness and stuff, people more often refer to SAT and variants, which are equivalent to RAM machines and all sane variants of pointer machines and combinator calculus etc up to juts a quasi-linear factor.
09:47:06 <b_jonas> SAT is equivalent to a _nondeterministic_ ram machine or pointer machine really
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09:49:26 <oerjan> @tell elliott <elliott> maybe all these "canaima"s are users of http://canaima.softwarelibre.gob.ve/ <-- ooh the mystery starts unraveling
09:52:07 <oerjan> "The operating system has gained a strong foothold and is one of the most used Linux distributions in Venezuela, largely because of its incorporation in public schools."
09:52:12 <b_jonas> any news on BANCStar by the way?\
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09:54:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39804&oldid=39755 * Javamannen * (+23) NybbleScrambler
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09:55:26 * oerjan doesn't remember if b_jonas has been paying attention the rest of the week, if not then yes.
09:56:27 <oerjan> see the discussions between zzo38 and mroman.
09:58:00 <b_jonas> the discussions between zzo38 and mroman were about the Monty hall problem and similar
09:58:46 <oerjan> ...go further back then
09:59:05 <oerjan> i could possibly be confusing mroman with someone else.
09:59:08 <b_jonas> I think I did read that then.
09:59:21 <b_jonas> Ok, so no new discuessions since.
09:59:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NybbleScrambler]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39805&oldid=39803 * Javamannen * (+2)
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10:09:24 * ais523 tried to tab-complete the "back" as well as the "shachaf"
10:12:04 <ais523> shachaf: my thesis is currently about finite-state systems
10:12:29 <ais523> what exactly it's about changes over time as I try to find an appropriate subset of my research that's internally consistent and doesn't have too many dependencies on things that don't exist
10:12:50 <ais523> like, writing about hardware would be nice, but there aren't any sufficiently good formalisms of delay-insensitive asynchronous hardware yet
10:12:56 <ais523> and I doubt I'll have time before the deadline to make one myself
10:14:40 <HackEgo> 566) <monqy> bad people have feelings too <monqy> but they're bad <monqy> so it's okay \ 826) <olsner> we have PR? <oerjan> the good news is we have PR. the bad news is we borrowed haskell's motto for it. [...] <oerjan> [...] "avoid success at all costs" \ 1169) <zzo38> C and C++ have some bad features compared to BLISS. <zzo38> Although C doe
10:15:22 <Taneb> `quote with clients
10:15:23 <HackEgo> 434) <Taneb> Well, I'm now experimenting with clients <fizzie> It doesn't sound like good PR to say that out loud.
10:16:25 <Taneb> I need to do that again
10:16:34 <HackEgo> 2) <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ 10) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler
10:16:43 <oerjan> yes, you should never give up your evil overlord dreams
10:17:02 <int-e> Oh, CaSe InSeNsItIvE.
10:17:19 <oerjan> `` allquotes | grep PR
10:17:20 <HackEgo> 434) <Taneb> Well, I'm now experimenting with clients <fizzie> It doesn't sound like good PR to say that out loud. \ 718) <elliott> I CAN'T DEAL WITH THE PRESSURE OF EVERYBODY THINKING I'M CONAL \ 826) <olsner> we have PR? <oerjan> the good news is we have PR. the bad news is we borrowed haskell's motto for it. [...] <oerjan> [...] "avoid succes
10:18:13 <int-e> `` allquotes | grep PR | shuf
10:18:14 <HackEgo> 718) <elliott> I CAN'T DEAL WITH THE PRESSURE OF EVERYBODY THINKING I'M CONAL \ 826) <olsner> we have PR? <oerjan> the good news is we have PR. the bad news is we borrowed haskell's motto for it. [...] <oerjan> [...] "avoid success at all costs" \ 434) <Taneb> Well, I'm now experimenting with clients <fizzie> It doesn't sound like good PR to say
10:18:40 <oerjan> `` allquotes | grep PR | wc
10:19:02 <Taneb> Is that lines/words/characters?
10:19:42 * Melvar discovers that, like do, Idris’ comprehensions will happily use whatever (>>=) and return fit.
10:20:40 <oerjan> idris, the language with haskelly type classes _and_ overloading madness
10:20:51 <Melvar> ( run $ the ({ [EXCEPTION String] } Eff (Either String) Integer) $ [ the Integer (x * y) | x <- pure 2, y <- raise "no" ]
10:22:13 <Melvar> I am going to guess it will also use whatever guard fits.
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10:24:01 <Taneb> !python print range(10)
10:24:04 <EgoBot> [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9]
10:24:30 <Taneb> Sweet, I know idris now
10:26:26 <Melvar> ( run $ the ({ [EXCEPTION String] } Eff (Either String) Integer) $ [ x * y | x <- pure 2, y <- raise "no" ]
10:26:52 <Melvar> Apparently in that case the one full type suffices.
10:34:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39806&oldid=39783 * B jonas * (+1713)
10:35:09 <nooodl> ( the ((a : Type) -> a -> a) the
10:35:25 <b_jonas> ok, I wrote up as much as I understood from the conversations and the github stuff
10:39:05 <oerjan> oh duh you were the one making the article
10:39:12 * oerjan needs a working memory
10:45:13 <b_jonas> oerjan: no need for memory, just use a computer for that
10:46:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39807&oldid=39806 * GreyKnight * (+134)
10:57:33 <b_jonas> oh, linux 3.15 is released. so now we're definitely past version pi.
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12:12:39 <myname> what is the prevailing opinion about specifying stuff on other peoples languages in the wiki?
12:14:16 <oerjan> well i've done that, but in very small doses.
12:15:40 <oerjan> (like deciding Itflabtijtslwi's EOF convention)
12:17:01 <oerjan> you should be pretty sure the language doesn't have a more specific definition or implementation outside the wiki...
12:18:54 <oerjan> and preferably that it's not currently being worked on by its author
12:19:19 <myname> so, generally speaking: if you come by with the first implementation you may decide? :D
12:19:45 <oerjan> little details, anyway.
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12:35:25 <oerjan> of course if the author is around here, it cannot hurt to ask.
12:35:47 <oerjan> (i assume you wouldn't be asking this then, though)
12:42:17 <mroman> myname: Mark it at least as your specification
12:42:37 <mroman> i.e. say it's a variant of the original author's specification
12:43:00 <mroman> like Foobar -> call your's Foobar+ or something
12:43:33 <mroman> I wouldn't just change someone else's language
12:44:08 <mroman> If you write a detailed enough specification you can submit as an ESOSC Draft :P
12:44:57 <oerjan> i disagree if it's about something which makes the original language unimplementable unless it's specified.
12:45:00 <myname> if i'd get ESOSC i may dovthat
12:45:16 <oerjan> rather than an actual extension
12:46:05 <myname> what about "there are implementations that do X whereas others do Y"?
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12:46:36 <oerjan> myname: you could just make a section about your implementation, describing its choices
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12:52:01 <myname> that stuff that was floating around here just confused me
12:52:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lii]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39808&oldid=39798 * GermanyBoy * (+824) fibonacci
13:03:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lii]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39809&oldid=39808 * GermanyBoy * (-12) /* Tape via stacks */ fix
13:10:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lii]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39810&oldid=39809 * GermanyBoy * (-135) /* Tape via stacks */ format and removed unnecessary code
13:23:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39811&oldid=39807 * FireFly * (+1631) Add tables for instruction opcodes, add section about conditionals
13:24:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39812&oldid=39811 * FireFly * (-2) /* Arithmetic instructions = */ Oops
13:27:36 <b_jonas> FireFly: is the statement I wrote about the implementation and old floppy right? I'm not sure I understood the irc discussion correctly
13:29:45 <b_jonas> maybe we'll find BANCStar commands for displaying tiles and sprites and collision detection
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13:52:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lii]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39813&oldid=39810 * GermanyBoy * (+166) /* Built-in classes */ toString
13:55:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lii]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39814&oldid=39813 * GermanyBoy * (+793) /* Linked list */ a new data structure
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14:17:55 <mroman> If you know a pair of inverses mod m you also get a second pair of inverses for free
14:18:02 <mroman> that's a neat trick I wasn't aware of until now
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14:24:44 <Jafet> It's the shipping charges that really get you.
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14:42:55 <mroman> Do we know something about (a*s) `mod` (a*b)?
14:44:13 <nooodl> sounds = a * (s `mod` b)
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15:02:57 <mroman> Do we know something about the inverse of m in mod phi(m)?
15:04:01 <mroman> I suspect it's always 1
15:04:25 <mroman> but I don't beleive that for sure
15:05:27 <mroman> m mod phi(m) is 1 anyway
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15:07:58 <tromp__> most m are not relatively prime to phi(m), so have no inverse
15:08:44 <tromp__> this includes all even m>2, and all m with a square divisor
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15:44:33 <mroman> this script here is even wrong
15:44:42 <mroman> that doesn't hold forall m
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15:49:07 <nooodl> if i'm reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler's_theorem right, you can only be sure of this when gcd(a,m)=1
15:49:39 <tromp__> so it holds for all m and all relatively prime a
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16:00:46 <nooodl> https://www.dropbox.com/s/dsmndtrg4fuwmrg/2014-06-12%2017.58.26.jpg not the most useful page in my biology textbook
16:06:06 <mroman> 6^(phi(8)) mod 8 is zero for example
16:09:43 <mroman> of course it holds for m where m is prime
16:09:50 <mroman> because then it's essentially fermat's theorem
16:13:19 <mroman> are there finite groups that don't have at least one cyclic subgroup?
16:14:10 <mroman> are there even non-cyclic finite groups
16:18:07 <mroman> which would mean that there are finite groups G that have no element g with order |G|
16:19:35 <mroman> every element g produces a subgroup S where |G| = order of g?
16:20:13 <mroman> so every finite group has at least one cyclic subgroup
16:20:20 <mroman> maybe even one where |S|=1
16:20:31 <mroman> trivially S={e} is always a cyclic subgroup?
16:20:37 <int-e> only cyclic groups G have elements with ord(g) = |G|.
16:21:23 <int-e> For finite groups G and primes p, if p | |G| then G has at least one element of order p.
16:21:40 <mroman> it's actually even p^n | |G|
16:22:54 <int-e> Sylow's theorem (which you probably have in mind) talks about a subgroup, not an element.
16:23:11 <int-e> (his first theorem, that is)
16:24:21 <mroman> int-e: I had sylow in mind
16:24:52 <mroman> doesn't there's a subgroup of order q imply, that there is an element of order q?
16:25:46 <int-e> no. that would mean that every group has an element of order
16:25:51 <int-e> |G|, where G is the group
16:26:02 <int-e> since G is a subgroup of itself
16:26:21 <int-e> (hmm, or is q a prime power? but it's still false)
16:27:01 <tromp__> permutation groups are also non-cyclic for n>2
16:27:01 <int-e> The easiest counterexample is the Klein four group.
16:29:08 <mroman> if g has order n, there's a subgroup of order n
16:29:26 <mroman> but the vice-versa thingie doesn't hold.. hm
16:31:47 <int-e> 2 is a natural number, but not all natural numbers equal 2.
16:32:06 <int-e> sorry, this thing just happens all the time in math.
16:32:59 <mroman> I just thought that you can only create subgroups by using an element g in G and it will produce a subgroup of order |g|
16:34:05 <tromp__> you get subgroubs from a number of generators
16:34:20 <tromp__> a single generator gives a subgroup of size its order
16:34:44 <Phantom_Hoover> that is, if p^n is the highest power of p in the factorisation of |G|, there's a subgroup of order p^n
16:36:37 <Phantom_Hoover> but uh anyway, a really simple example of a group with a noncyclic subgroup is Z2 x Z2 x Z2
16:36:47 <Phantom_Hoover> which contains Z2 x Z2 as a subgroup, and that's not cyclic
16:51:15 <mroman> but every subgroup produced by a single generator is still cyclic?
16:52:07 <int-e> cyclic = has a single generator
16:52:49 <int-e> ((Z,+) is cyclic, btw)
16:54:11 <mroman> I think I confused primitive roots with generators
16:54:26 <mroman> I thought generators always must have the same order as the group
16:54:54 <mroman> although primitive roots isn't a term used for general groups
16:55:09 <int-e> Z2 x Z2 is generated by the set {(1,0),(0,1)}
16:56:18 <int-e> And I'd call the elements of that sets the generators, once the set is established in the context.
16:57:34 <mroman> are vector spaces groups?
16:57:45 <int-e> with addition, yes.
16:57:46 <mroman> without the scalar multiplication at least
16:58:13 <int-e> (just check the axioms)
16:59:00 <mroman> the basis of a vector space is also a generator?
16:59:36 <mroman> I don't get how subgroups with multiple generators are supposed to work
16:59:55 <mroman> (0/1) and (1/0) will certainly form a sub-group
17:00:25 <Phantom_Hoover> a basis of a vector space isn't necessarily a generator
17:00:37 <int-e> you start with the set of generators, and then close it under the group operations (inverse, and the binary operation)
17:01:13 <Phantom_Hoover> since with a basis you can multiply by any element of the underlying field, whereas with generators you can only add
17:02:04 <int-e> E.g. the subgroup of (R,+) generated by {1} is (Z,+).
17:02:36 <int-e> (Funny things happen. The subgroup of (R,+) generated by {1,sqrt(2)} is isomorphic to (Z,+)^2
17:03:51 <int-e> a set with two elements
17:04:16 <mroman> but what's the subgroup?
17:04:34 <int-e> { x + y*sqrt(2) | x,y in Z }
17:08:01 <int-e> you also get 0 (technically this is a group operation; the empty set generates the trivial group), the inverses -1 and -sqrt(2), and any number you can get by adding those things together, which is { x + y*sqrt(2) | x,y in Z }. Fortunately, + is commutative; for non-abelien groups the generated group can be quite hairy.
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17:57:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Lucasieks]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39815&oldid=39453 * Lucasieks * (+12)
17:57:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Lucasieks]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39816&oldid=39815 * Lucasieks * (+1)
18:08:03 <nooodl> for which x is the subgroup of (R,+) generated by {1,x} isomorphic to (Z,+) and not (Z,+)^2
18:12:12 <nooodl> dang it, what do you call two reals whose quotient is rational again
18:12:17 <nooodl> there was an adjective for it iirc!
18:21:19 <int-e> R is also a Q-vector-space. Which has a basis (assuming the axiom of choice) ...
18:27:03 <nooodl> what's an example of an element of R/Q
18:27:51 <nooodl> oh: i guess these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitali_set#Construction_and_proof
18:28:07 <nooodl> no wait why is it [0, 1]
18:29:53 <Bike> because [0,1] is convenient and isomorphic to R?
18:30:42 <Bike> group, whatever
18:34:17 <Phantom_Hoover> nooodl, an element of R/Q is a set of R that's closed by adding rationals, basically
18:35:50 <Phantom_Hoover> or uh, better explanation, for any x in R then {x+q : q \in Q} is an element of R/Q
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18:37:08 <Phantom_Hoover> a vitali set is the opposite, it's one point from each element in R/Q
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18:53:12 <HackEgo> olist (955): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
18:56:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: danke: not found
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19:03:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Javamannen * uploaded "[[File:NybbleScrambling.png]]"
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19:10:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NybbleScrambler]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39818&oldid=39805 * Javamannen * (+35) Added descriptive graphics
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19:35:27 <mroman> on an unrelated note: I'm working on a CoreWar-clone that resembles traditional memory layouts/CISC cpus a little bit closer
19:35:43 <mroman> there's one illegal opcode exception
19:35:56 <mroman> which will also enable the possibility of writing multi tasked program
19:36:19 <mroman> by purposely execute an illegal opcode and perform the task switch
19:36:45 <mroman> it also allows to recover from being tricked into executing an illegal opcode
19:36:54 <mroman> that is, as long as your interrupt service routine stays intact
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19:43:03 <mroman> although I've been thinking about adding hardware multitask support too
19:43:36 <mroman> or at least add a timer
19:44:52 <mroman> (programs run actually on different cpus sharing the same memory)
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20:36:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gs2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39819&oldid=38178 * Nooodl * (+273) /* Commands */ finish documenting opcodes
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22:04:44 <zzo38> Now I wrote a program for using for writing .MOD musics.
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22:48:34 <myname> Coding by SMS text message - Computerphile: http://youtu.be/0jraYGjhyY8
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23:11:03 <madbr> ho god the brainfuck survey
23:13:41 <madbr> looking at it and it's reminding me of how messed up the situation is with text mode vs binary mode
23:14:14 <madbr> Also "what should eof return" is a hard question
23:14:59 <madbr> because there is no way to signal eof
23:15:21 <madbr> it has to be a value between 0 and 255
23:15:37 <madbr> so it has to conflict with one character no matter what
23:15:41 <int-e> we should specify a 9 bit version of brainfuck
23:18:40 <int-e> (or borrow from the C standard: ", returns the next byte from standard input. at EOF, the behaviour of , is implementation-defined."
23:19:11 <nortti> no, EOF shall be undefined behaviour!
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23:21:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: oots: not found
23:21:30 <HackEgo> olist (955): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
23:21:39 <madbr> but c has a way to get filesize
23:21:54 <boily> guess what. I grepped for oots in the logs.
23:22:00 <lambdabot> oerjan said 13h 51m 59s ago: <boily> meanwhile, finns are weird → http://i.imgur.com/7gSGv1S.jpg <-- one super-delicious ice cream hth
23:22:01 <madbr> so you're not supposed to ever read bytes past EOF anyways
23:22:52 <madbr> afaik pipes are broken in the windows world
23:23:05 <madbr> (not that I've ever used them)
23:24:11 <madbr> basically all the console-batchfile-textfile architecture of windows is subtly broken and you don't want to test the edge cases because they will break
23:24:26 <madbr> this includes stuff like "non ascii filenames"
23:26:09 <madbr> this is generally due to inheriting the DOS mess
23:26:11 <boily> oh no you didn't just mention non-ascii filenames!
23:26:57 <madbr> they are ok for user land interaction
23:27:25 <madbr> but once it's some datafile that's going to ship with a product, non-ascii filenames = "please break on other OSes"
23:28:15 <madbr> if the filename appears anywhere in source code, you're begging for the string to be interpreted as latin-1 on one compiler and utf-8 on some other
23:28:49 <boily> don't worry. some utf16 is garanteed to creep in. good lock with endianness!
23:29:12 <madbr> doesn't matter, almost all big endian platforms are dead
23:29:25 <madbr> except maybe for the wii U and whatever clunky servers
23:30:19 <boily> some day, middle endian will come back!
23:31:47 <madbr> basically ARM blocked off the stream of new big endian architectures
23:32:54 <elliott> madbr: I would not call Power dead.
23:33:20 <elliott> given that a lot of new stuff is being done for power servers (google etc.)
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00:07:44 <elliott> well, depends on how you define alive, there :P
00:09:33 <madbr> but in 5 years when someone comes up with a new architecture, is it going to be little or big endian? :D
00:10:01 <madbr> back then there were many more influential big endian architectures (68k, mips)
00:10:08 <madbr> now it's down to power
00:11:39 <elliott> what endianness is the Mill?
00:12:16 <elliott> I wonder if there is any technical advantage to big endian on the architectural level
00:12:30 <elliott> it's pretty clearly worse for assembly up
00:12:45 <elliott> madbr: oh and network order is big-endian
00:12:48 <elliott> so it's always going to be relevant
00:13:53 <zzo38> I just always use ASCII filename anyways and require program I write to always require input to be ASCII filenames too, therefore avoiding any such problem.
00:14:06 <elliott> I, too, solve problems by ignoring them
00:14:21 <madbr> elliott : but then that's probably never going to be in code that has to be fast
00:14:46 <zzo38> Non-ASCII filenames are a bad idea anyways.
00:14:48 <madbr> by now most performance sensitive code is floating point anyways
00:14:54 <elliott> madbr: you don't think high performance matters for network code? sure it's going to be IO-bound, but ignoring CPU cost hurts scalability
00:15:17 <elliott> yes, that sentence has two parts though.
00:15:19 <madbr> also it's full of loads, stores and jumps
00:15:27 <elliott> you should see the amount of work people put into optimising HTTP parsing
00:15:29 <madbr> it's never going to be performance relevant
00:15:48 <Bike> that one article about O times being obsolete is all about caching versus network code...
00:16:06 <madbr> any code that deals with this is going to be limited by memory loads or branch mispredictions
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00:16:50 <madbr> so it doesn't matter if you lose 5 cycles shifting data around because that's 5 cycles where the cpu is waiting on the cache/ram
00:16:50 <zzo38> Filenames with spaces are also a bit bad idea, and with control characters.
00:17:01 <elliott> madbr: anyway, I have no idea what at all the relevance of performance-sensitivity is
00:17:08 <elliott> given that the original topic was endianness of UTF-16 filenames
00:17:19 <elliott> performance wasn't even mentioned
00:17:33 <madbr> if you're not in performance oriented code endianness doesn't even matter
00:17:43 <madbr> you just shift around the bytes if you're in the wrong endian
00:18:01 <elliott> 00:28:49 <boily> don't worry. some utf16 is garanteed to creep in. good lock with endianness!
00:18:04 <elliott> 00:29:12 <madbr> doesn't matter, almost all big endian platforms are dead
00:18:16 <elliott> my point is it does matter because big endian is here to stay (e.g. because network order)
00:18:21 <elliott> you can't just dismiss endianness concerns
00:18:24 <elliott> this has nothing to do with performance
00:18:26 <zzo38> Many libraries insist on UTF-8 filenames, some programs use other codepages, but generally in all cases ASCII is a subset of such thing, therefore it work better.
00:18:50 <madbr> elliott: if power falls out of relevance, all new architectures will be little endian
00:19:16 <elliott> but architectures are not the only things that can make endianness relevant...
00:19:31 <zzo38> madbr: I am not so sure. MMIX is big-endian.
00:19:48 <madbr> if all architectures are little endian then there's no point to big endian utf-16
00:20:04 <madbr> though tbh there's barely any point to utf-16 at all anyways
00:20:19 <zzo38> Although I do think small-endian is better.
00:20:41 <zzo38> I don't care about requiring the endianness for the purpose of parsing UTF-16.
00:21:39 <madbr> unicode byte order marks are stupid and whoever came up with that idea should be hit
00:21:51 <zzo38> s/byte order marks //
00:22:02 <elliott> madbr: but there are reasons things would be big endian even if all architectures are little endian
00:22:23 <madbr> legacy format here and there yes
00:22:30 <elliott> again, the network byte order is big endian, so it is ubiquitous. (though I guess in e.g. HTTP or whatever, use of UTF-16 specifies endianness explicitly)
00:22:43 <elliott> you think the standard network byte order qualifies as legacy...?
00:23:03 <madbr> legacy doesn't mean it's out of use
00:23:13 <elliott> okay. then I define everything on your computer as legacy and therefore completely irrelevant
00:23:51 <madbr> in this case I mean as in "If it was defined yesterday morning it would've been little endian. but it wasn't"
00:24:08 <madbr> so not legacy as more like a legacy decision
00:24:13 <elliott> well, we are always shackled by the past.
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00:25:58 <madbr> I've written code with
00:26:30 <madbr> #ifdef BIG_ENDIAN #error Fix this #endif
00:26:50 <madbr> I don't expect to be going through that code any time soon
00:26:56 <elliott> C code should never depend on endianness anyways.
00:27:33 <elliott> stuff like explicit casting to bytes is dumb when bitwise ops say what you actually mean, compile identically, and are inherently portable (the operations you are doing on the values has nothing to do with your computer's internal representation of data)
00:27:43 <madbr> would happen less often if there was a sensible way of reading shorts/ints from a raw byte stream
00:28:18 <zzo38> If you have the correct preprocessor symbols you can use them to compile a shorter kind of code in one case than the other
00:28:34 <madbr> elliott : essentially it's a file load/store issue
00:29:06 <madbr> once it's inside C++ values then of course it's in the architecture's natural byte order and everything is fine
00:29:34 <elliott> madbr: http://commandcenter.blogspot.be/2012/04/byte-order-fallacy.html
00:29:45 <elliott> there is no reason to depend on architecture endianness for load/store operations, ever
00:29:54 <elliott> it is more complicated, less clear, less portable, and no faster
00:30:21 <elliott> and the code that depends on endianness can fail to work for reasons unrelated to endianness
00:30:24 <madbr> i = (data[0]<<0) | (data[1]<<8) | (data[2]<<16) | (data[3]<<24);
00:30:30 <madbr> and also hard to read
00:30:53 <elliott> if that's hard to read, you have no business processing files with bits in them.
00:31:07 <elliott> especially because that can become a single read_uint16 function or whatever.
00:31:18 <madbr> that's what happens usually
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00:31:29 <madbr> except every program has its own definition of those
00:31:38 <madbr> because they never made it to the standard library
00:32:06 <madbr> also there's the people that use #pragma pack
00:32:29 <madbr> and essentially use a structure definition to essentially define a data loading format
00:33:29 <madbr> but because the gcc guys and msvc are too stupid to agree on anything this involves multiple macros (one for gcc one of msvc)
00:34:02 <madbr> plus of course an extra "bit reverse everything" function for when you end up having to do a big endian port
00:34:15 <zzo38> And the data can contain not only endianness and number of different sizes, also pointers, and variable lists, etc.
00:34:32 <madbr> it can't have pointers
00:34:36 <Bike> what the heck, that ain't hard to read
00:34:36 <madbr> it's data from a file
00:34:49 <madbr> bike: for one value it's not
00:34:50 <zzo38> Of course C makes such serialization difficult, but some programming language (such as SQL) don't have this problem.
00:35:08 <zzo38> madbr: I know it doesn't, but due to the file format it might be variable and so on
00:35:11 <Bike> sql, savior of us all
00:35:14 <madbr> bike: once it turns into loading complex data files with dozens of values it turns into a mess
00:35:26 <elliott> sure if you've never heard of functions or macros or anything
00:35:31 <Bike> yeah iwas gonna say
00:35:34 <Bike> abstract that shit bro
00:35:34 <elliott> in which case, god help you and your format parser anyway, it's going to be hideous
00:35:51 <zzo38> Yes it is going to be a mess, when you have to change things too
00:36:24 <madbr> I know that's the thing to do
00:36:45 <madbr> but I also deal with real world code made 15 years ago by some maths programming guy
00:37:04 <Bike> a mathematician programmer is going to make everything ugly.
00:37:10 <elliott> in which case they already chose whether to cast or us bitshifts or whatever
00:37:15 <elliott> and any argument for one or the other is irrelevant
00:37:28 <Bike> they're going to go "gosh, haskell is cool, but i think it needs to look more like fortran"
00:37:31 <elliott> honestly all of your arguments are bizarre non-sequitur topic-changes whenever you run out of defences
00:37:43 <madbr> and the maths programming guy codes for win32, couldn't care less about POWER or MIPS (or sometimes even GCC!) and is going to use #pragma pack
00:37:55 <zzo38> If the programming language is QBASIC, then you can assume the PC or an emulator. If it is SQL, then it has a cross-platform format so that works; you can still define additional stuff in C, and call C from SQL and SQL from C, both ways.
00:37:59 <elliott> okay, so are you this guy? if not, then it's irrelevant how he codes, because we were talking about how you code
00:38:10 <elliott> since, if you remember, this was about the ifdef that you wrote
00:38:43 <madbr> if it wasn't a maths programming guy then it would have read_int32() read_int16() read_int8() read_float() read_string() write_int32() etc...
00:39:55 <elliott> but we're... talking... about... your... code...
00:39:55 <^v> who uses those anymore
00:40:05 <madbr> but then it might be a maths heavy piece of code that does something interesting either
00:40:06 <^v> its all about dem * and &
00:40:11 <elliott> 01:25:58 <madbr> I've written code with
00:40:11 <elliott> 01:26:30 <madbr> #ifdef BIG_ENDIAN #error Fix this #endif
00:40:23 <elliott> 01:28:34 <madbr> elliott : essentially it's a file load/store issue
00:40:23 <elliott> 01:29:05 <madbr> once it's inside C++ values then of course it's in the architecture's natural byte order and everything is fine
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00:41:01 <^v> big endian is best endian
00:41:25 <Bike> i continue to find the history of the names hilarious given: that
00:41:32 <madbr> big endian is not IOS endian
00:41:41 <zzo38> So if you care about endianness and various other thing (screen I/O, etc) one thing you can do is to run the program in emulator; for example, writing computer game and distributing in iNES format, then it can run on a NES/Famicom emulator or on a real NES/Famicom hardware.
00:41:46 <madbr> it's not even PC endian
00:41:51 <Bike> zzo's got this shit down
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00:42:26 <madbr> it's "Oh god they're making us port to this retarded platform that is going to sell like 3 copies" endian
00:42:49 <^v> if you have a NES raise your hand
00:42:59 <^v> i count zero
00:43:01 <Bike> there's an SNES at the local goodwill for like ten bucks
00:43:04 <madbr> to young, my generation was SNES
00:43:04 <Bike> maybe i should get it
00:43:06 <zzo38> Some people have actually made NES game and then released it on iPhone too, so you can still do that.
00:43:38 <^v> my generation was camecube
00:43:42 <zzo38> The program will be small-endian regardless of the endianness or word size of the computer you are running it on.
00:44:22 <madbr> the reason to do a NES game or something like that it that it forces some game design choices
00:44:28 <^v> zzo38, so the solution is to write an emulator for the architecture you coded it in
00:44:31 <madbr> and shapes the game that comes out
00:44:45 <^v> or just code it properly <_>
00:44:50 <zzo38> madbr: To me, that isn't necessarily the reason, although it can be one.
00:44:52 <madbr> gotta take a game design decision -> the nes can only do X
00:45:11 <madbr> result: the game is all X and feels stylistically unified
00:45:30 <zzo38> If you need a keyboard you have the Famicom Keyboard too. The SNES mouse can also be used, if you need mouse input.
00:45:47 <madbr> there's no other real reason to do a NES games these days
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00:46:09 <madbr> because there are other platforms that do everything the NES did and take less time to develop for
00:46:10 <zzo38> No, I do it for many reason
00:46:34 <boily> the NES was a magical platform.
00:46:41 <zzo38> Doing it on other platform, then it won't run on a different platform that that one
00:46:55 <boily> (magical in that you had to do some heavy thaumaturgy just to get the damn cartridge to boot.)
00:47:04 <zzo38> My own programs "Famicom Hangman" and "Attribute Zone" do use the Family BASIC keyboard for input.
00:47:40 <madbr> there are platforms that are fundamentally nice
00:47:43 <zzo38> I write computer games for DOS computers too
00:47:47 <madbr> and platforms that are fundamentally hostile
00:48:24 <zzo38> Well, my opinion is that modern systems are relatively terrible.
00:48:27 <madbr> for instance the snes is fundamentally hostile
00:48:59 <madbr> modern systems are ok but they kinda guide you towards the wrong shape
00:49:16 <madbr> they're kinda too powerful in the wrong way
00:49:51 <zzo38> They are too complicated
00:49:55 <madbr> the ideal platform would let you only do a good, tight game
00:50:08 <madbr> IOS is NOT an ideal platform by this measure
00:50:24 <zzo38> IOS is terrible, too. Famicom is OK.
00:51:41 <madbr> if you look at game platforms, some platforms have only crap games
00:52:23 <madbr> this is influenced by power level and economic rentability (ie the budget of the games on that platform)
00:53:05 <madbr> but there's also a totally independent factor and some platforms have nice game libraries almost by voodoo magic
00:53:59 <madbr> my example on this is going to be game soundtracks:
00:54:11 <madbr> why do so few neogeo games have bad soundtracks?
00:54:32 <zzo38> Because the people who made neogeo are good composers.
00:58:03 <zzo38> I agree to write the emulator for architecture you coded it in. It is done today by people who made "Zooming Secretary" for NES and iPhone and so on, and Infocom did it with all of their games too, so yes this is the idea.
01:03:39 <zzo38> Do you think the music in my "Attribute Zone" game is good? My brother said is very good.
01:06:34 <zzo38> By hearing it, I suppose?
01:07:54 <zzo38> Full source-codes for all software involved (including the music itself) are also available.
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01:13:22 <zzo38> It is mapper 11, so no expansion audio. There is also no percussion, just because I am not very good at percussion.
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01:15:08 <madbr> you should try to learn how to compose it then
01:16:57 <madbr> usually it's just snares on 2 and 4
01:17:12 <zzo38> Yes perhaps I can try to learn percussion
01:17:21 <madbr> and kicks nominally on 1 and 3 but often displaced before or after or shuffled around in various ways
01:17:58 <zzo38> But all the files are in: http://zzo38computer.org/nes_program/attrzone.zip and the .NSF is the only one you need to play the music, though.
01:18:04 <madbr> hihats filling in not to loud on most eights in various rhythmic patterns with accented beats
01:18:20 <madbr> potentially with open hihat hits
01:18:41 <madbr> and then from time to time you have a fill and all of this stops and turns in whatever solo-y pattern fits best
01:18:48 <zzo38> Even if I do add percussion they would be using only the noise channel; I want to avoid use of DPCM
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01:21:23 <madbr> then you can do megaman style drums
01:21:41 <zzo38> I don't really know much about megaman style
01:21:53 <madbr> not as good as dpcm drums but better than nothing
01:22:20 <zzo38> Yes, probably that is true
01:23:06 <zzo38> I could use DPCM in the editor, but I want to avoid using up the ROM space for DPCM samples, too.
01:23:23 <madbr> you don't have to use lots
01:23:33 <madbr> just enough to get nice snares and kick
01:23:52 <madbr> you can mix DPCM with noise for snares
01:24:26 <zzo38> I know you can mix DPCM with noise, too.
01:24:50 <madbr> also a good trick for noise snares is that you have to give it a low frequency thwack
01:25:03 <madbr> before the high frequency wall of noise
01:25:28 <madbr> like, one or two frames of low frequency rumble then broadband shhhhhh
01:26:15 <madbr> it's easier to try this out by experimenting
01:26:19 <zzo38> But maybe these existing songs might sound best without percussion anyways; I am not so sure.
01:26:54 <madbr> generally on nes you have so little going on that you need percussion to make the music go
01:27:12 <zzo38> Yes of course, I can understand that.
01:27:24 <madbr> like, even when remixing classical music on the nes it generally benefits from added percussion
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01:28:27 <zzo38> Although the other game I intend to make next would be "Tape Battle", and probably using VRC6 mapper. Therefore, I would have additional sound channels available, although percussion is still possible too.
01:28:46 <zzo38> But for "Attribute Zone" game I don't intend to change the mapper to anything else from what it already is.
01:28:52 <madbr> start with most important things first
01:28:59 <madbr> percussion then maybe vrc6
01:29:45 <zzo38> I am much better at chord and multiple harmony than percussion. Although, music wasn't the only reason I intend to use VRC6, anyways; it is also due to the mapper's other features.
01:30:39 <zzo38> But of course, when writing music that is only meant for .NSF, I will often use more than one expansion audio (although sometimes only one or none at all).
01:30:41 <madbr> then work on percussion since that's your weakpoint
01:31:29 <zzo38> Yes, I can work on percussion too, especially for Attribute Zone game since not all of the music is yet complete in that game, so even if I don't add percussion to the existing music, the rest of the music can have percussion included.
01:31:51 <madbr> make people dance to the music
01:31:53 <zzo38> Currently the title screen music even uses only one channel, and I think it is good that way
01:32:18 <zzo38> The music isn't designed for dancing, although you can do that if you want.
01:33:19 <madbr> isn't the title screen the best place for grandiose music?
01:33:27 <madbr> with lots going on etc
01:33:50 <zzo38> I suppose so, but in this specific case, what it is now seems to be working OK.
01:35:07 <zzo38> Although the title screen itself doesn't contain much either, other than the title, a place to enter the level number (using either the D-pad or the numeric keys), and tell you what other functions are available. It contains no colors or animation or anything.
01:35:10 <madbr> I think it would benifit from more harmony, fake echoes, crazy bassline, fake chorus/detune, etc
01:35:33 <madbr> spare 1k of data and get yourself a hard hitting snare
01:35:36 <zzo38> You may be correct.
01:35:56 <madbr> get your players all pumped up about the game
01:35:58 <zzo38> And I probably do have 1K spare.
01:36:49 <zzo38> I have not added support for detune into the playback engine so far though.
01:36:56 <madbr> title screen/intro/menus is the best place to put pics of your main character
01:36:59 <zzo38> But the game is not an action game at all; it is just a puzzle game.
01:37:08 <madbr> make the player care about the dude he's about to play with
01:37:10 <zzo38> There is no story behind it nor is there meant to be.
01:37:42 <madbr> once in game the character has to be small and has to deal with the game action and it's too late
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01:39:08 <madbr> example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtId7oQz8-s
01:39:31 <zzo38> You are correct about those things, but this is not a story game.
01:39:39 <madbr> the title screen and menus and intros are plastered with that dude's face
01:39:47 <madbr> it's not even about a story
01:40:03 <madbr> it's about making the player identify to the main character
01:40:19 <madbr> a lot of games that do this barely have any story at all
01:41:03 <madbr> show him so that the players know who they're dealing with
01:42:55 <madbr> you want players to care about the gameplay
01:42:57 <zzo38> This isn't that kind of game, though. There isn't really any "main character" either; just one piece of the puzzle is a piece you can move directly by pushing the buttons (although some buttons also do other things such as detonate all bombs on the screen).
01:43:18 <madbr> then it's a different type of game I guess
01:43:38 <zzo38> Yes, it is what I said.
01:43:50 <zzo38> In a different game though, yes I can certainly take your advice.
01:45:20 <madbr> well, it can also be applied to puzzle games (see: tetris attack) but it's defitively less important there
01:46:07 <zzo38> Yes I think is less important there, and for puzzle game I generally prefer without, anyways
01:48:07 <zzo38> And, you don't even have to put everything on the title screen (it may not fit); stuff can also put in label picture, box picture, and instruction book. (Label picture can be distributed as PNG, perhaps)
01:50:25 <zzo38> I consider the game play to be more important, though.
01:51:12 <madbr> for your gameplay to work you have to make the player care about the game first
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01:55:54 <madbr> the player might not want to learn your game mechanics if he's not emotionally involved
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01:59:38 <madbr> and they are even better when you involve human interest
02:01:17 <madbr> a lot of popular games are essentially puzzles but they are wrapped in all sorts of stuff that generate human interest (music, characters, settings, plot, etc)
02:04:11 <zzo38> I tend to prefer to think of them in abstract terms, but you can do what you like. All of these software are open-source, in fact!!
02:04:49 <zzo38> I may want a story for adventure game but for a puzzle game it is not necessary.
02:05:24 <zzo38> Chess puzzles don't generally have any music, characters, etc either.
02:05:39 <zzo38> (Although, one very old chess puzzle does have a story to go with it.)
02:06:10 <madbr> chess still has a human interst element
02:06:17 <madbr> first that you're playing against someone
02:06:28 <madbr> but also you're playing with an army
02:06:37 <zzo38> Yes, although if it is a chess problem then there is no opponent
02:06:42 <madbr> and you "eat" the other guy's pieces
02:06:58 <zzo38> The proper term is "capture", but "eat" is used too
02:08:18 <madbr> and there's a reason you're playing with kings, queens and horses
02:08:29 <zzo38> Yes, that is historical reason
02:09:06 <zzo38> But of course actual king, queen, horses, etc isn't working like that, so generally is just considered the name of the pieces these days.
02:09:13 <madbr> go is more abstract
02:09:18 <madbr> (and also less popular)
02:09:22 <zzo38> I am an abstract kind of gamer
02:09:34 <elliott> and yet still vastly popular.
02:09:50 <elliott> and I don't believe the main reason for chess's greater popularity is that the pieces have names.
02:10:21 <zzo38> elliott: They have names because there is more than one kind, for one thing; so that can help it.
02:10:24 <madbr> there are many more reasons yes
02:11:45 <madbr> but there's a good reason why so many games have a "narrative"
02:12:01 <zzo38> Yes, you can have a "narrative" if you want to
02:13:14 <madbr> why do you think candy crush is (unfortunately) so popular
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02:13:47 <elliott> if you're telling people how to make their games more like candy crush, I hope they ignore you.
02:13:52 <zzo38> Magic: the Gathering puzzles generally do have a story associated with them, although I don't generally care much about the story of the puzzle or of the cards. I play Pokemon Card too, but just do it in abstract terms and my own Pokemon Card puzzles don't have any story associated with them.
02:14:24 <zzo38> madbr: The title? I don't like that title much but probably it seems a lot of people would like.
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02:14:41 <MDude> Mentioning that the puzzle game involves a peice that moves aroudn and detonates bombs remotely reminded me of some N64 game that I never actually played.
02:15:58 <zzo38> The piece doesn't detonate bombs remotely; that is a global effect you can use by pushing one button, simply. The piece you move doesn't detonate bombs at all but some pieces do as part of their effect when colliding with bombs.
02:16:35 <zzo38> In order that you can tell apart the pieces, they are given names and icons (a bit more sensible than chess, though).
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02:16:58 <zzo38> For example a key is used to get past a door of the same color.
02:18:16 <MDude> Yeah, but I meant the game I'm talking about was similar.
02:19:17 <MDude> Actually, I forget how it worked, but I meant if you made the moveable peice a character, it would make snese for bombs to blow up globally via a key if you said it was a remote detonator.
02:19:39 <MDude> Though making it a character isn't needed.
02:21:39 <zzo38> If I want a game with a story, I can play text adventure game or Dungeons&Dragons game or whatever. I don't need graphics or music for those either.
02:22:08 <madbr> tbh I prefer stuff like mario rpg
02:26:08 <madbr> and for adventure games, the lucas arts stuff
02:26:31 <zzo38> That's fine, those game can be good too
02:27:18 <madbr> they take a lot more effort to develop
02:33:18 <zzo38> Although, really it depend on preferences and on variety of things.
02:37:44 <zzo38> But I make many computer games in DOS that don't have graphics, although some do use graphics mode in order to draw overlapping icons or hex grid or other stuff that it can help with.
02:42:05 <Quintopia> as far as dos games go, my childhood was MEGARACE
02:43:06 <Quintopia> Let's see what you've won, Enforcer! An invitation to spend an evening out with yourself, including restaurant and a romantic movie. All expenses paid by Y-O-U. Do I hear wedding bells?
02:43:20 <madbr> it did have an intersting soundtrack
02:43:20 <Quintopia> (i still remember it like yesterday)
02:43:54 <Quintopia> i'm pretty sure it NEVER HAD SEQUELS. shhhhh
02:43:56 <madbr> one of the few games that does anything interesting with the hardware aside from playing midi
02:44:51 <madbr> all custom patches and all sorts of crazy detune effects and fake echoes etc
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02:45:56 <madbr> instead of the usual "just play a midi (that was composed on some expensive roland module so it sounds totally stupid on the end user computer)" bullshit
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02:46:58 <Quintopia> any idea what sort of mad hoops i'd have to jump through to get it to run on a 64-bit win8 machine?
02:47:09 <madbr> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1FVdUTSlF4&list=PL6F9446A70251AFD4&index=3 so raw and agressive
02:47:16 <madbr> dosbox + prayer probably
02:48:44 <madbr> why aren't there more games with music like this
02:51:07 <zzo38> Do you like to play Pokemon Card?
02:51:18 <madbr> the industrial one is "new fac", but my fav is suburb
02:54:43 <Quintopia> hmm, do you think i could rip the midis from the disc?
02:56:13 <madbr> I don't think the game even uses midis
02:56:27 <madbr> I think it's some sort of custom music system (same as in Dune)
02:56:42 <zzo38> Maybe you could log them to VGM?
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02:57:56 <Quintopia> so i'd have to get the damn thing to run, or track them down on the web (the link to the tracks on wikipedia is busted)
03:01:17 <Quintopia> "On April 15, 2014 it was announced conversions of the entire MegaRace Trilogy were being made for mobile and tablet devices along with a reboot of the franchise on PCs, game consoles, mobile, and tablet devices by ZOOM Platform and Jordan Freeman Group. Industry veteran, Bernie Stolar, is the Chairman of ZOOM and Jordan Freeman Group and was quoted in the press release"
03:01:58 <Quintopia> dunno why they're bothering to convert 3 :/
03:06:13 <Quintopia> hmm i think suburb is the one that went with orbital junkyard for some reason
03:10:14 <Sgeo> That is one small soundtrack
03:10:20 <Sgeo> Not that it's bad
03:15:00 <madbr> "I'm Lance Boyle and you'd be too if you were me."
03:17:22 <ion> https://twitter.com/torahhorse/status/475754225964572673
03:19:10 <zzo38> Do you have transpose/volume information for the Zeux series instruments that I can import into amigasam (a program I wrote for extracting instruments from .MOD music files)?
03:20:57 <madbr> most samples should play C at 8363hz
03:21:06 <madbr> but some are on different octaves
03:21:10 <zzo38> The format it uses is currently not compatible with any program other than AmigaMML (another program I wrote).
03:21:23 <zzo38> madbr: Yes, although some aren't tuned to C at 8363
03:21:46 <madbr> then you have to do it by ear
03:21:57 <madbr> figure out the transposition and reverse it
03:23:10 <zzo38> Yes I could try that
03:23:34 <madbr> there is no other way
03:34:28 <zzo38> If you want to you can also try to use this amigasam format in other software, although currently there isn't any as far as I know of.
03:35:43 <madbr> I just rip samples straight out of amiga MODs in impulse tracker
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03:36:31 <zzo38> That works, although MOD format stores no transpose information
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03:44:31 <zzo38> This export format contains not only transpose, but also loop and base volume (which is not the same thing as default volume, although it will use the same value as default volume by default).
03:44:52 <zzo38> And the finetune, which is part of .MOD format anyways.
03:45:20 <zzo38> Most tracker music software can probably import directly from other music files and export them to whatever format they need
03:47:01 <zzo38> I know .IT format has its own transpose features and so on.
03:53:10 <zzo38> OpenMPT has no "reload current file" function as far as I can see, although the ENSATA DS emulator does have such a thing.
03:53:53 <madbr> reload current file?
03:54:59 <zzo38> I mean just a shortcut key to cause it to reload the current file which is open. Many emulators and music players have no such shortcut.
03:59:49 <madbr> it's usual to do this on a module because normally when you have a song open in MPT you're editing it in MPT
03:59:57 <madbr> and not with like 2 or 3 programs at the same time
04:00:40 <zzo38> MPT has no SQL editor or MML compiler integrated with it; if they did have both things then you probably wouldn't ever need to edit it with other programs at the same time.
04:01:48 <zzo38> (And if even those are insufficient, you could use SELECT LOAD_EXTENSION('more_stuff.dll'); or whatever)
04:02:10 <madbr> the point to using mpt is to avoid having to deal with mml or similar stuff
04:02:28 <madbr> it has a full featured pattern editor just for this
04:02:56 <madbr> the pattern editor has like thousands of manhours of work in it to make it work well
04:03:21 <zzo38> OpenMPT does have a replace menu, which can do a few things, but not quite everything you might want; I think using SQL to do batch replacements of this kind would work better.
04:03:44 <madbr> that's probably overdesign
04:04:06 <zzo38> Then don't need a replace menu and all of that stuff
04:04:10 <madbr> most users don't know SQL
04:04:48 <madbr> also the replace menu is specifically tailored to MPT's music data
04:04:55 <zzo38> But sure you could make one table to add things into the menu so that such thing can be added on
04:04:56 <madbr> that's a significant advantage
04:05:22 <madbr> also that would add dependency on some SQL library
04:05:36 <madbr> which would increase loading time, size etc
04:05:39 <zzo38> Yes it would; I use SQLite myself
04:06:09 <madbr> bloating software like that is not a good idea
04:06:47 <zzo38> I know, although mptrack.exe is already 2791 KB and has too many things compared to that really.
04:07:00 <zzo38> All the VST and stuff we don't need.
04:07:10 <zzo38> After all they aren't even portable!
04:07:29 <madbr> VST is 1000000 times more useful than adding SQL support for editing note data
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04:07:39 <zzo38> I don't really think so.
04:07:41 <madbr> MPT was never portable
04:07:55 <madbr> it uses like... MFC
04:07:57 <zzo38> Modern version are adding more compatible playback though
04:08:04 <zzo38> That's what I mean
04:08:13 <madbr> the playback library is portable yes
04:08:28 <madbr> but the program itself is 100% win32 only
04:08:39 <zzo38> Yes, but that isn't what I meant at all
04:09:06 <zzo38> And of course it doesn't even have to be MPT; it is possible to make/use other software too, with same playback
04:09:13 <madbr> also doing replacements in pattern data can usually be faked with the existing block commands
04:09:27 <madbr> or by manipulating instrument parameters
04:09:44 <madbr> VST support is NOT fakable
04:10:25 <madbr> no amount of pattern data editing will let you fake a reverb
04:10:45 <zzo38> I still don't like VST and use Csound instead; it is open-source and much easier to edit than VST in my opinion, and also doesn't require GUI like VST does.
04:11:19 <zzo38> And if you use VST then these .MOD/.IT/whatever aren't a portable files anymore anyways.
04:11:28 <zzo38> You should make it a different program!
04:12:12 <madbr> GUIs are a feature
04:12:30 <zzo38> Yes, but it ought not to be a required feature.
04:12:46 <madbr> tweaking a synthesizer patch by text file is bothersome and slow
04:13:12 <madbr> the gui exists to make that process faster
04:13:22 <zzo38> I find it much easier and much more powerful though. Csound does support GUI too, though.
04:13:30 <madbr> since your patch is easier to edit the result is normally going to be better
04:13:46 <zzo38> So you can use GUI in Csound if you want to, either using its own FLTK and stuff or using external programs such as Blue.
04:13:52 <madbr> also GUIs are a significant time investment, you might as well use it
04:14:16 <madbr> ok link to one good looking GUI made for csound
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04:15:01 <zzo38> But I find it more convenient to edit the text file directly. GUI may be helpful to try tweaking the stuff, but even if I do such thing, I want to export it into a text that can be included in another file, and then be able to put in varying parameters and all of that stuff too
04:15:26 <zzo38> I don't know what GUI are available for Csound much, but I believe Blue has a lot of features.
04:15:37 <madbr> but does it look good
04:15:39 <zzo38> Csound can load VST as well, though, so you can still use all of the VST GUIs.
04:15:43 <madbr> and is it practical to edit
04:15:52 <zzo38> Why do you care if it "look good"?
04:16:19 <madbr> because I don't want to strain my eyes
04:16:21 <zzo38> To me it is not so practical to edit, but neither is any tracker music software. But many people who do use it, find it very practical and useul to use.
04:16:37 <zzo38> And I believe it does actually allow you to change the color if you don't like the blue colors.
04:17:35 <zzo38> Csound also has the capability to be used as a VST.
04:18:00 <madbr> it's too open-ended
04:18:29 <zzo38> However, I don't really like VST; they cost too much and you have to get each one individually, and it is Windows-only and difficult to do the advanced stuff that Csound is capable to do.
04:18:40 <madbr> you can in theory do everything in max-msp
04:19:34 <madbr> in practice you can do everything but it's held by duck tape, it's never tight and it's not really conductive to actually composing music
04:20:01 <madbr> there's a reason VSTs cost money
04:20:03 <zzo38> I find Csound works very well though, and so do many others.
04:20:13 <madbr> high development time
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04:20:49 <zzo38> Even if they don't cost money, I still don't like VST, so I don't use it.
04:21:02 <madbr> it's that high development time that makes it so that the synth isn't held together with duct tape and it doesn't break whenever you try to do anything
04:21:30 <madbr> also one big feature is that they are made by people who know what they're doing so everything is implemented the right way around
04:21:49 <madbr> for instance, and envelope (ADSR) can be implemented the right way or the wrong way
04:22:11 <zzo38> Csound doesn't "break whenever you try to do anything" either, and they are also made by people who know what they are doing, and are developed over a much longer period of time than VST, and is also open-source (GNU LGPL).
04:22:12 <madbr> if you get a stupid synth like some thing a dude made in synthedit, then it's going to be implemented the wrong way
04:23:29 <zzo38> Csound has a lot of commands included so that you can just start working on it right away.
04:24:03 <zzo38> But I find it works best.
04:24:07 <madbr> your feedback loop (change something - test - change something - test - change something - test...) is never going to be short
04:24:09 <zzo38> Some people don't, but they don't have to use it!
04:24:23 <madbr> short feedback loop is super important
04:24:27 <madbr> and csound doesn't have it
04:24:56 <madbr> that's why I use impulse tracker
04:24:59 <zzo38> I find I can do it without taking too long.
04:25:01 <madbr> it has a short feedback loop
04:25:08 <madbr> zzo38 : that's NOT short
04:25:42 <zzo38> All that means is that you are good at Impulse Tracker and that you are not very good at Csound.
04:26:03 <zzo38> If you like Impulse Tracker, then use it, but I don't like it, and can work faster in other ways
04:26:03 <madbr> there's a difference between hearing changes as you make them
04:26:21 <madbr> and hearing them 10 seconds later after a text editor save
04:26:47 <zzo38> It is your assumption that you have to do it one at a time! Well, you don't!
04:27:21 <madbr> no you have to work super fast
04:27:33 <madbr> otherwise you forget your musical ideas before you can type them in
04:27:49 <zzo38> That is not how I think of music, though.
04:28:21 <madbr> ultra tight musical data editors (piano rolls, trackers, etc) are not a luxury
04:28:24 <madbr> they are a necessity
04:28:26 <zzo38> Do you ever work with writing down musical notations?
04:28:45 <madbr> I've done it a couple of times
04:29:17 <madbr> It's a different ballgame... it's kindof like text editing, but with musical symbols
04:29:26 <madbr> where the goal is to produce an easy to read part
04:29:31 <zzo38> Writing it by hand is going to be a bit slow, but I have done it nevertheless, even in the bus.
04:29:54 <zzo38> I find the text file almost as easy to read, but much faster to enter/edit.
04:29:55 <MDude> Muisc notation: "Toot toot honk toot"
04:30:13 <madbr> also I'm not too good at sight reading
04:30:17 <madbr> which is very hard imho
04:30:52 <MDude> "Where am I about to dissapear to?"
04:31:00 <madbr> zzo38 : how do you know if the melody you've entered is strong or not so interesting?
04:31:13 <zzo38> Then why do you think you are a very good musician if you are such bad at sight reading? I find it important for writing music.
04:31:17 <MDude> Also, where am I going to put the extra pumpkin point if there's no room on my board now?"
04:31:19 <zzo38> madbr: I can make good guesses by my mind.
04:31:35 <MDude> Wait whty am I talkigna bout rthwe stream here.
04:31:36 <madbr> zzo38 : I'm just comparatively better at other things
04:31:38 <zzo38> Sometimes it is wrong, but not so likely.
04:32:00 <madbr> zzo38 : sure that's an ok first guess, but to really know you have to hear
04:32:04 <zzo38> madbr: O, that's fine
04:32:13 <madbr> which is why I use a tracker
04:32:32 <madbr> then I can instantly play it back
04:32:43 <madbr> and fix the mistakes, improve how it sounds etc
04:32:45 <zzo38> I find that it is also difficult to know even if it is only a few notes, even if you play them right away; I need to put all notes together to make the music to listen if it is wrong or not.
04:33:07 <madbr> try out 3 or 4 ways of doing voice leading in a bunch of crazy jazz chords
04:33:10 <zzo38> But, really it depend what kind of way work best for you for writing a music.
04:33:32 <zzo38> I use classical rather than jazz chords, so perhaps that makes a difference, too.
04:34:20 <madbr> I've kindof half forgot the counterpoint rules so I just wing it
04:34:51 <madbr> and then I listen to know if it works
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04:37:08 <zzo38> Although some people don't use MML, tracker, piano roll, or anything like that and prefer just to play it on the piano and record the audio onto a tape or CD. I know someone who write music and prefers this method.
04:37:23 <zzo38> He plays guitar too, not only piano.
04:37:57 <madbr> I use piano to try out new ideas, try to figure out new chords to add to my style etc
04:38:12 <madbr> and just improvise around
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04:39:32 <madbr> I guess piano + pencil on music sheet works as a music composition technique
04:39:40 <zzo38> I do know how to play piano too, and do sometimes try stuff too, but usually I play a music that is already written down; either from a book or I write it down myself and then play it. I don't do it so often though because I usually work with computer instead; it is much faster.
04:41:16 <zzo38> At time of Bach and so on they would always only be writing it down and that kind of stuff. Some composers even were deaf and still could write music.
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04:43:47 <madbr> you should probably learn jazz chords btw
04:44:39 <zzo38> madbr: Maybe I will some day. I did read a few things about it from my sister's books actually, but don't know everything about it. They sometimes work, sometimes not so well, really. Some jazz music are good and some are worse, I find.
04:44:48 <zzo38> I find it too slow to type music into the tracker grid and to go back and edit it, so that is why I think that using a integrated tracker+SQL+MML would work best (it is one reason, anyways).
04:45:35 <zzo38> All extra menus and stuff and macro and so on can be defined externally rather than having to put all of that stuff into the program at once.
04:45:49 <madbr> you should learn to use a DAW
04:45:53 <madbr> that's where it's at
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04:46:49 <zzo38> I have used DAW, but find it is difficult, and yet I would also need to buy a MIDI input device.
04:47:09 <zzo38> Actually the digital piano I do have supports MIDI, but it is in a different room from the computer.
04:47:22 <madbr> but it's what has the highest payoff
04:47:54 <zzo38> I find Csound can do everything that DAW can do (even real-time, MIDI input, etc), and it is also free, too.
04:48:29 <zzo38> I also don't need DAW because I am not a professional music writer.
04:48:35 <madbr> on paper csound does everything
04:48:50 <madbr> in practice, it's just not a music composition tool
04:49:05 <zzo38> Well, to me it is, as well as several others.
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04:52:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pluso]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39820 * Icepy * (+1362) Created page with "Pluso is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:Icepy|Icepy]] in 2014. This programming language is called pluso because it has to commands: plus and output. T..."
04:53:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pluso]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39821&oldid=39820 * Icepy * (-1)
04:56:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pluso]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39822&oldid=39821 * Icepy * (+28) /* Hello world */
04:58:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pluso]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39823&oldid=39822 * Icepy * (+27)
04:58:37 <Sgeo> [S] Rex Duodecim Angelus released
04:58:47 <zzo38> Csound has been in development since 1985, and is still being updated today. Csound does support real-time and interactive if that helps you. There are many GUI and other stuff. Blue does have piano rolls, tracker style format, algorithmic generation, and more.
04:59:58 <zzo38> Things you say about Csound and MML and stuff being not useful is simply not true. The fact is, it depend your style of writing music what works best for you. If you don't find Csound and MML useful, then don't use them!
05:01:37 <madbr> impulse tracker is embedded onto my muscle memory
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05:02:04 <zzo38> Yes, use it if that helps you.
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05:10:57 <zzo38> But I wrote AmigaMML so that I can use that instead.
05:16:50 <madbr> one of my current pet project is trying to come up with a language for a megazeux successor
05:17:03 <zzo38> I also find that Impulse Tracker format is too complicated, as well as being too limited in some ways too (you cannot have multiple effects per cell)
05:17:30 <zzo38> madbr: Interesting idea; I also have many idea relating to such thing! Mine is probably completely different.
05:18:13 <madbr> - multiple "threads" per object
05:20:28 <madbr> - basic data types are floats, strings (std::string basically), vectors of floats (std::vector basically). variables are either local to objects, or global
05:21:14 <madbr> - object-local variables can be "generic" (ie all objects have that variable and you can read/write it on other objects)
05:21:40 <madbr> - thread supports basic megazeux-like flow control (wait 1, end, goto, send...)
05:22:40 <Sgeo> I still love this art http://wow.zamimg.com/images/hearthstone/cards/enus/animated/GAME_005_premium.gif?4443
05:23:15 <madbr> - objects have some forced built-in variables like x, y, vx, vy (velocity), ax, ay (acceleration), hflip, hp...
05:24:19 <madbr> - you can send messages to a collide box
05:24:43 <madbr> - objects clip against the background (and probably other "solid" objects)
05:25:23 <madbr> - background is 2d tiled (designed for tiled 2d games like platformers, space shooters, zelda-likes and rpgs)
05:26:23 <madbr> - each tile in the tileset can have various attributes such as "solid"
05:26:36 <madbr> - slope tiles are also built-in
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05:28:39 <zzo38> It doesn't have much to do with MegaZeux really, although may have some things inspired by MegaZeux; it is good though. Completely different from my own ideas, which is something closer to ZZT and MegaZeux.
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05:29:11 <madbr> the concept is geared towards 2d tiled games
05:29:22 <madbr> which means it needs a reasonable of 2d physics
05:29:44 <madbr> also objects cannot be tiles anymore
05:30:11 <zzo38> Yes I can see, what you are writing is good and stuff, but different from my own ideas which aren't meant for the same kind of games really
05:31:55 <madbr> what's your design?
05:34:07 <zzo38> It still has color/thing/param like MegaZeux, and the "thing" is either a primitive (which can be user-defined in the format file), or if it is too high, the thing/param together designate a robot ID. Therefore, the maximum number of robots depends on how many primitives are defined.
05:34:53 <zzo38> Font height is a global setting of the game, and there are four fonts: system, text, robot, and object. The "robot" set can be set per board; "text" and "object" per world; "system" is immutable.
05:35:49 <zzo38> Many things are now defined in the format file (a standard one is provided, which you edit for your game if necessary).
05:36:21 <zzo38> No more built-in ammo, health, lives, etc; you can define those yourself.
05:36:48 <zzo38> A few primitive objects and Robotic commands are built-in, while others are defined in the format file.
05:37:10 <madbr> and how does the format file define new object types
05:37:37 <zzo38> Similar to what I have experimented modifying MegaZeux, but in a much better way than that.
05:37:53 <zzo38> Things like board properties are also defined in the format file.
05:38:18 <zzo38> That is, which board properties are available; the settings for each board are done in the editor like ZZT and MegaZeux do.
05:38:41 <madbr> does it expand the graphics?
05:39:22 <zzo38> Graphics would be similar to MegaZeux, but with four banks of 256 characters and two bits per pixel, and a customizable (per-world) font height, but always 8 pixels wide.
05:39:45 <madbr> why not 4 bits per pixel?
05:41:19 <zzo38> Due to the way colors will work, for simplicity, and to be closer to the MegaZeux. Each tile drawn on screen still has a background and foreground color, and one bit per pixel is used to select the alternate palette rather than the default one.
05:41:55 <zzo38> So, each tile still has colors same as in MegaZeux graphics mode 0, or PC text mode.
05:45:02 <madbr> one of my issues with megazeux is that it's hard to make nice action games because the tile-by-tile motion always feels kinda clunky
05:45:21 <madbr> especially when all your sprites are 1x1
05:45:45 <zzo38> Number of built-in primitive objects is probably small, perhaps only empty, custom wall, and player (for things like GO SEEK, but player is now optional). All others are defined in the format file.
05:46:48 <zzo38> I can understand you, although those are not the kind of action games I would be trying to design with MegaZeux anyways.
05:49:01 <madbr> also 1x1 sprites are tiny
05:49:28 <madbr> forces you to do all the character development/identification through text
05:49:45 <zzo38> I prefer doing character development/idenficiation through text anyways
05:50:02 <zzo38> I don't really like cutscenes
05:50:56 <madbr> I think the way is large sprites
05:51:03 <madbr> but this is hard to do in mzx
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05:51:57 <zzo38> Yes it is hard to do in MZX, but to me that is not the point; they are not important for these kind of computer game.
05:54:15 <madbr> for me they are important
05:54:36 <zzo38> madbr: Well, that is why you make up that new one difference instead; it is still good too.
05:55:11 <zzo38> But I just don't like cutscenes and prefer text window.
05:56:03 <madbr> I'm not talking about cutscenes
05:56:14 <madbr> they're a different thing
05:56:20 <madbr> I'm talking about in game
05:56:40 <zzo38> It depend what type of game, really.
05:56:49 <madbr> if you try to make a game with more than 1x1 characters in mzx
05:57:00 <madbr> you either have to use sprites
05:57:07 <madbr> which are imho not very well designed
05:57:16 <zzo38> MZX isn't really suitable for the kind of game with more than 1x1 characters
05:57:20 <madbr> and also don't interact with anything else which sucks
05:57:31 <zzo38> But it is a different kind of games anyways
05:57:58 <madbr> I want larger characters because that improves emotional impact
05:58:18 <madbr> and helps make action games less clunky
05:58:29 <zzo38> To me, it makes less things fit on the screen.
05:59:08 <zzo38> Using MegaZeux like that seem to be, you should be using something else. And your ideas can be used to make up such a program for this kind of design, it can be good idea!
06:02:26 <zzo38> But the thing I am trying to make is an entirely different kind of thing than yours, and for different purposes.
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06:39:55 <Sgeo> http://www.clickhole.com/video/what-adorable-little-girl-says-will-melt-your-hear-286
06:40:01 <Sgeo> I may end up addicted to ClickHole
06:54:43 <shachaf> Sgeo: are you playing the clicking game
06:54:47 <shachaf> unlocking those achievements
06:57:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Icepy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39824&oldid=39693 * Icepy * (+52)
06:59:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39825&oldid=39791 * Icepy * (+12) /* P */
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08:42:39 <b_jonas> is anyone considering to create a BANCStar parody language yet? as in, an esolang where the source code tries to mimic BANCStar source code.
08:43:35 <zzo38> Probably not yet, as far as I know
08:47:51 <mroman> It's based on lanterna
08:48:03 <mroman> (http://code.google.com/p/lanterna/)
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08:58:48 <mroman> b_jonas: If you have some specific ideas...?
08:59:35 <mroman> I was thinking of roughly having a prompt file per application, 12 form files and 12 screen files
08:59:53 <mroman> Form-Files describe the TextUI
09:00:02 <mroman> and the screen file is the code behind each Form
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09:01:21 <b_jonas> mroman: I was actually thinking of something that doesn't behave like BANCStar, it's only the source code that looks like BANCStar
09:01:34 <b_jonas> so source code must have lines with four optional numbers per line,
09:02:01 <b_jonas> numbers are between -32768 and 32767, and 0 is sometimes omitted
09:02:31 <b_jonas> and sometimes the last digit or the first digit is taken separately
09:02:53 <mroman> so... no prompt file too?
09:03:17 <b_jonas> if you just mean an array of 2000 variables, then sure, that could exist
09:06:55 <b_jonas> I was thinking of encoding a scheme program (with some limitations) as numbers such that each positive number encodes a symbol in the first four digits and a parenthesis pattern in the last digit,
09:07:11 <b_jonas> and negative numbers encode a literal (numeric or character),
09:07:16 <b_jonas> but this isn't good enough,
09:07:45 <b_jonas> because it wouldn't replicate the way how there are lots of zeros, often multiple zeros in a line, and how the first of the four numbers in a line has a different distribution.
09:09:22 <mroman> If you have something that's good enough do it ;)
09:09:34 <mroman> writing a bancstar-mimic is currently on my todo list not in the first place ;)
09:09:43 <mroman> I've just made some sketches but nothing more
09:10:55 <mroman> currently on top of my todo-list is my CoreWar-clone
09:14:50 <b_jonas> I'll think more about this
09:16:54 <oerjan> must... break out... of logs' endianness discussion...
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09:47:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gentzen]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39826&oldid=39801 * Zzo38 * (+440)
09:47:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gentzen]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39827&oldid=39826 * Zzo38 * (-1)
09:54:32 <oerjan> fungot: so what do you think of this eugene goostman guy
09:54:41 <fungot> oerjan: children's online privacy protection act please see their homepages and check out :) is it possible to run very often, but it's still better than nothing
09:54:59 <oerjan> fungot: it sounds like you've been taken in completely
09:55:01 <fungot> oerjan: " this is a bad idea anyway to avoid that one! i was raised on thought balloons!!
09:58:01 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
10:05:24 <b_jonas> please add the bibul style, based on http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/bibul which was downloaded from http://www.lolcatbible.com/
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10:43:02 <fizzie> fungot: You were not raised on thought balloons, stop cheating people.
10:43:02 <fungot> fizzie: can you say java is the best language for fnord
10:43:24 <fizzie> fungot: I can say that but it doesn't make it true.
10:43:26 <fungot> fizzie: first of all, it is not
10:43:57 <fizzie> Right, that's what I just said.
10:44:59 <fizzie> @tell boily I don't get it
10:45:53 <boily> @tell fizzie me neither.
10:47:18 <shachaf> fungot: what's the best language for fnord
10:47:19 <fungot> shachaf: others wouldn't even think about that, since it ( a, b).... is that a group won't make substantial political progress without appealing to a majority.
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10:49:07 <oerjan> fizzie: you didn't see the whole thing http://i.imgur.com/7gSGv1S.jpg
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10:50:15 <oerjan> also i already google translated it for boily but i'm not sure he realized
10:50:34 <boily> fungot: don't think, no majority... is it forth?
10:50:53 <fungot> boily: it should look like before i saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness starving hysterical naked!
10:50:53 <boily> fungot: forth it is.
10:50:53 <fungot> boily: nope, just something i couldn't get to sleep... will check in some other place in memory
10:50:55 <boily> fungot: okay then. I'll ask you later.
10:51:00 <fungot> boily: gwydion if you generate an absolutely disgusting amount of getter/ setter methods and constructors are in that list too. ( let ( ( x 1)
10:51:16 <boily> oerjan: I think I remember realizing you translated it, but I'm not sure.
10:52:10 <fungot> shachaf: they use css to find the code, i'm more a pi guy than a fnord location whose contents is initialized to zero
10:53:06 <shachaf> fungot: we are all of us fnord locations whose contents is initialized to zero
10:53:06 <fungot> shachaf: guile seems to be particularly welcome on irc.
10:53:19 <shachaf> fungot: more than you know hth
10:53:21 <fungot> shachaf: ( lambda ( x y) x y)? what operation would that perform, if ( proc-a) is not
10:53:54 <fungot> boily: they forced the addition of laml
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11:09:38 <fizzie> "One delicious super ice cream", then.
11:09:53 <fizzie> (It was loading p. slow on this thing.)
11:26:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Insomnia]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39828&oldid=13211 * 175.156.179.223 * (+125) /* About command 8 */ new section
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14:31:45 <ion> On what planet was this released? https://github.com/haskell-distributed/distributed-process/blob/eae0a41/ChangeLog#L1
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15:07:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fishstacks]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39829&oldid=39214 * 75.102.84.17 * (+1)
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15:25:06 <b_jonas> I just misread "serialized" as "sterilized". Must be Friday.
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16:10:11 <mroman> Some objects bette be sterilized!
16:24:45 <fizzie> Somehow I have gotten stuck permanently "Online" in Skype.
16:25:01 <fizzie> At least I'm reasonably sure I have no Skype clients running anywhere.
16:34:15 <int-e> a google search suggests: "The solution is: Unlink your Skype account and your Microsoft account"
16:36:24 <fizzie> I don't have them linked, so I can't follow that.
16:36:25 <int-e> (from this thread: http://community.skype.com/t5/Mac/Why-do-I-always-show-as-quot-online-quot/td-p/1038298 the first 4 posts are hilarious)
16:36:35 <fizzie> (I'm kind of proud that I thought of that without a Google search.)
16:37:25 <int-e> send a cease and desist letter to the NSA demanding that they stop running Skype clients on your behalf.
16:38:24 <fizzie> The last page of the thread did let me know of /showplaces, which is a command I was sort of wondering whether it existed.
16:39:20 <fizzie> I only have one online endpoint, the one where I did /showplaces in.
16:39:38 <fizzie> And when I shut down that client, I'm apparently still listed as "Online".
16:41:23 <fizzie> I also manually set my status to "Offline" and I still show up as "Online".
16:41:39 <fizzie> The NSA explanation sounds likely at this point.
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20:42:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Smilefuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39830 * Sacchan * (+2266) Created page with "'''Smilefuck''' is an esoteric programming language similar to [[brainfuck]]. It was created on June 6th, 2014 by [[User:Sacchan]]. == Memory layout == The datastructure mani..."
20:43:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Smilefuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39831&oldid=39830 * Sacchan * (-4)
20:43:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Smilefuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39832&oldid=39831 * Sacchan * (+10)
20:45:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Smilefuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39833&oldid=39832 * Sacchan * (-44)
20:45:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Smilefuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39834&oldid=39833 * Sacchan * (+1)
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21:15:51 <password2> wait , does the topic update on each wiki edit?
21:16:13 <Bike> the topic? clearly not
21:16:16 <Bike> that's just HackEgo talking
21:16:40 <zzo38> You can filter out those messages if you don't like them, like I have done.
21:16:42 <password2> sorry i saw colored text and thought topic
21:17:32 <Bike> >2011 >not being used to colored text
21:18:21 <Bike> my grandpa actually thought it was 2015 a few days ago, that was odd
21:21:09 * Melvar checks that the way ST separates threads would work fine in idris.
21:21:40 <shachaf> Bike: what's with the whole "calling people nerds" thing
21:23:03 <shachaf> is the joke "i'm a nerd myself and therefore it's funny that i would call somebody else one. and in addition i don't actually think it's insulting i just use it as if it was an insult"
21:23:11 <Melvar> “let v = runST (\x => newVar True) in runST (\y => readVar v)” → “Can't unify ST s (MutVar s Bool) with ST x (MutVar y iType)” (x and y named for illustrative purposes)
21:23:15 <Bike> i dunno, probably
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21:55:13 <zzo38> The thing I want to know of someone else knows, is a way I can define the way to define a set of new symbols (which may be nullary, unary, binary, etc) for sequent calculus, and primitive rules to go with them, such that: * These rules only use the new symbols on the bottom and only outermost of a term. * It can be proven that there are no new theorems which do not involve these new symbols. * Such proof can be used for the computer to perform
21:57:39 <oerjan> zzo38: i think in type theory those are called soundness proofs, although i don't know much about the details.
21:58:14 <oerjan> or at least close to soundness proofs
21:58:51 <oerjan> girl genius still hasn't updated today :(
21:59:03 <oerjan> those things from wednesday still look pretty scary, though.
22:03:12 <diginet> lel this channel has may-may arrows? >mfw
22:03:27 <oerjan> what's a may-may arrow
22:04:02 <Bike> probably 4chan style quotes. >quoted text i only use them because ia m insufferable
22:04:22 <Bike> it's just irc green, of course
22:04:44 <oerjan> diginet: i don't think i've seen them before today
22:05:16 <olsner> bancstar in topic, did something happen to that? I remember we were trying to figure out how to figure out where it went
22:05:22 <zzo38> oerjan: Soundness proofs? I don't know much about that either.
22:06:26 <oerjan> olsner: mroman got in touch with a guy who has a github repository on it, and some additional info was dug out
22:06:43 <oerjan> and zzo38 has been reverse engineering
22:07:05 <oerjan> and the wiki got a page on it.
22:08:04 <oerjan> (the eleven was my attempt at a subtle joke on some quote approximately like "the program only 10 people can read")
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22:16:20 <FireFly> olsner: the wiki has a decent article on it now
22:17:02 <FireFly> it helps to not forget the lines I read a few minutes ago
22:19:43 <diginet> has anyone here ever used META-II?
22:25:12 <zzo38> I have not used META-II
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22:31:10 <oerjan> hm news about an ad turning on people's xbox via the speech recognition
22:31:30 <oerjan> i smell the next annoying internet prank
22:32:04 <MDude> Yes, it will be so nice when speech recognition is sued more widely.
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22:32:44 <MDude> With that and text to speech engines, I'll soon be able to have a group of electronic devices chattering with each other, all mistaking each other's commands for those of humans.
22:32:46 <oerjan> i find your use of "sued" intriguing, as i can just about imagine you _didn't_ misspell it.
22:33:11 <MDude> That could be interesting as well.
22:34:13 <oerjan> a virus spreading through speech recognition...
22:34:20 <oerjan> or at least a bot loop.
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22:37:08 <zzo38> I don't like speech command anyways and consider it is a bad idea. When dialing a telephone number that includes such a thing, I normally just push zero right away and hope it works. In the case of directory assistance, it does work. But in one case, someone told me, they had to tell them that they are an idiot before the computer tried to connect them to an operator.
22:37:23 <zzo38> The numbered menus I am OK with though
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22:43:19 <Sgeo> What is the deal with today's Dilbert?
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22:48:00 <MDude> I guess it wants us to eat dark chocolate?
22:48:08 <MDude> I'm not going to argue with that.
22:49:07 <MDude> Also, the conclusion at the end is itself at least somewhat magical thinking.
22:55:05 <zzo38> The reason I wanted to know about those things with proofs about new symbol in sequent calculus is presumable to make something like that in the type/class definitions for Gentzen esolang
22:58:25 <oerjan> MDude: the worship of rationality does not necessarily come with the ability to distinguish it.
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22:59:28 <oerjan> (above statement probably also magical thinking.)
23:03:32 <zzo38> How to tell Mozilla the maximum amount of time and memory to take while parsing CSS?
23:03:59 <zzo38> Or, really perhaps, rendering CSS
23:08:15 <monotone_> Well, you can tell it zero by disabling stylesheets.
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23:08:43 <polytone> I don't think there are many other choices.
23:23:27 <zzo38> Maybe UniMod format is better than Impulse Tracker?
23:24:43 <MDude> oerjan: Yeah, I meant that was what was up with the comic.
23:25:56 <zzo38> Then you don't need only one effect per note, I think.
23:27:13 <zzo38> Or a simplified version of such could help, possibly, by removing some redundant stuff
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00:09:23 <MDude> I wonder why META II is called that and not jsut META.
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02:44:58 <zzo38> Is it legal, under the GPL, to sell the current version of the software plus a subscription allowing you to receive new versions at no extra charge during the subscription period, with a clause in the subscription license (not the software) that says they are allowed to terminate the subscription if they find you distributing copies of the software, and require you to pay full price for the next version?
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02:52:28 <kyhwana> zzo38: hrm, im not sure about that, given the GPL says you're allowed to/have to distribute the source with the binary?
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02:56:04 <zzo38> kyhwana: I know that you have to distribute the source, but I don't think that has anything to do with my question.
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03:03:18 <kyhwana> zzo38: yeah, you'd probably have to ask a lawyer
03:21:40 <zzo38> kyhwana: Someone else told me that it is allowed, and is what Red Hat does with binaries (although their sources are available to the public).
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03:59:53 <fowl> theres a channel on freenode for license discussion
05:12:14 <zzo38> For proving the use of a new operator in a sequent calculus, as I have described above, could it work to do it involving the cut rule, like: For every pair of rules using the new operator on the bottom where one is used on the right of the turnstile and one on the left, you prove what a cut would prove by using everything on the top of both rules.
05:12:46 <zzo38> How well is it working? There may still be a problem possibly...
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05:53:06 <Sgeo> I'm finding myself addicted to TagPro
05:55:40 <Sgeo> Wins 4 Losses 10
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06:12:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39835&oldid=39804 * 72.220.70.84 * (+113)
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06:35:59 <Sgeo> http://lpaste.net/88416
06:36:11 <Sgeo> So maybe it IS possible for Chrome scripts to do arbitrary things to a page
06:37:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * IdleGamesRock * New user account
06:42:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:IdleGamesRock]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39836 * IdleGamesRock * (+17) Created page with "Hi! I'm a person!"
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07:15:27 <Sgeo> Erlang reminds me of OpenBSD
07:16:04 <Sgeo> Erlang has a 'let-it-crash' philosophy that may not be a good idea in environments other than Erlang. OpenBSD projects have a 'trust the OS' philosophy that may not be a good idea for OSes other than OpenBSD
07:21:02 <elliott> this seems like an incredibly tenuous connection
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07:59:56 <zzo38> Now I am adding support for Extended Module into AmigaMML, too, as well as a few other features which are compatible with both Amiga mode and Extended mode.
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08:46:07 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I had a dream that your uni accommodation was in York and you left it unlocked so I wondered in and you had an en-suite library
08:46:39 <Phantom_Hoover> although it would, i suppose, by mitigated by the en-suite library
08:47:13 <Taneb> Also there was a lecture theatre that was just in a corridor
08:48:54 <Taneb> Also I had a USB N64 controller I think
08:49:42 <Phantom_Hoover> i was having some kind of dream at some point but then the fire alarm went off at 4 in the morning
08:51:15 <Taneb> Also when I went into your room you had IRC open on a computer so I messaged you from your account if I could borrow some of your books
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08:57:12 <Taneb> ...do you want to borrow some of mine?
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09:34:06 <mroman> why is this f*ing cell phone not accepting my f*ing sim card
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09:45:48 <Taneb> Is it the wrong way round?
09:45:54 <Taneb> (I've made that mistake)
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09:50:29 <int-e> is the phone vendor-locked?
09:50:37 <int-e> (or whatever they call that)
09:51:19 <oerjan> mroman: it's because it doesn't approve of your language hth
09:52:25 <oerjan> the ham packages i use to buy have recently started smelling weird after a few days, i have to throw out the last slices :/
09:53:09 <oerjan> i think this one is on the brink.
09:56:24 <mroman> had to clean the goldy-shiny plate a little bit
09:56:58 <olsner> then the problem might have been that the bit that was supposed to be shiny was dirty
09:58:19 <mroman> If its father were here it would hear something
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10:39:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AlPhAbEt]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39837&oldid=34520 * 146.52.215.210 * (+18) Updated homepage
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10:50:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39838&oldid=39835 * 92.20.254.163 * (+170) /* General Ideas */
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11:53:18 <password2> i should not have discovered that list of ideas
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11:57:47 <oerjan> looking at http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:David.werecat&diff=39799&oldid=36193 i'm wondering if we should have a policy that you _must_ be logged in to edit your user page.
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12:09:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pluso]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39839&oldid=39823 * Oerjan * (+0) wikifmt
12:11:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Insomnia]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39840&oldid=39828 * Oerjan * (+52) unsigned
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12:18:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Cheese]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39841&oldid=39794 * Oerjan * (+178) the spirit of unsigned
12:58:33 <mroman> password2: You have fallen prey .
13:00:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39842&oldid=39838 * 92.105.82.69 * (+77) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */
13:01:18 <mroman> someone could make an esolang specifically designed for GPUs
13:03:21 <mroman> elliott: I'm sorry. I'm not git.
13:06:39 <int-e> password2: piet? hehe.
13:07:28 <int-e> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Piet ... it has pixels, that's why I thought of it.
13:09:15 <password2> it keeps confuzing me cas in my language Piet is a common name
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13:13:44 <oerjan> it's named after piet mondrian, naturally
13:14:09 <oerjan> hm, nice hitler mustache
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13:17:41 <oerjan> ooh dmm has recently added some clarifications to the language spec
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13:23:03 <oerjan> hm or maybe just the note that there _are_ clarifications.
13:23:28 <Taneb> oerjan, something about stacks, something about numbers
13:24:18 <oerjan> there's a big block about white blocks that's marked.
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13:24:37 <Taneb> And divide, mod, and roll
13:25:24 <Taneb> Basically, ctrl-f for implementation-dependent
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13:26:51 <oerjan> except the stack one is missing the hyphen hth
13:29:04 <Taneb> OK, stacks, numbers, div, mod, roll
13:29:12 <Taneb> All to do with implementation dependent behaviour
13:30:57 <boily> still bancstarring?
13:32:34 <mroman> BANCStar isn't actually as esoteric as it first seemed
13:32:51 <oerjan> well it's not intended to be, so...
13:33:02 <mroman> It's actually pretty sane and it was never meant to be used directly by humans :)
13:33:34 <boily> let me guess. some kind of bytecode that happens to be stored as decimal numbers?
13:34:17 <mroman> although later versions of BANCStar switched to a binary format
13:34:25 <mroman> making it really Bytecode
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13:36:42 <mroman> not more esoteric than programming on punch-hole cards
13:37:01 <mroman> although that probably holds for most esolangs :DD
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13:39:27 <mroman> http://codepad.org/jYzLiEJ9
13:39:40 <mroman> I don't get why most assemblers actually require comma between arguments
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15:41:39 <FireFly> Checkout looks interesting
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16:37:50 <zzo38> BANCStar certainly is look like it could be stored as binary with eight bytes per instruction, although, it isn't.
16:43:19 <FireFly> maybe that latter binary version is
16:43:35 <FireFly> The question is whether the "empty" fields are actually 0, or something else
16:44:08 <FireFly> the LIST program seems to treat them as 0
16:44:33 <zzo38> FireFly: Yes, I was actually thinking the same thing. They are either zero or -32768, was my initial idea.
16:44:36 <zzo38> I still don't know.
16:45:06 <mroman> My CI told me that later versions of BANCStar used a binary format
16:45:58 <mroman> probably to stop them crazy folks from programming in it :D
16:46:28 <zzo38> BANCStar really look not quite that bad.
16:46:37 <mroman> `learn CI is a confidential informant
16:46:38 <zzo38> And you could have the text compiled into a binary format, too.
16:47:04 <zzo38> It is not difficult if you know what the omitted values are.
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16:55:00 <FireFly> <mroman> probably to stop them crazy folks from programming in it :D
16:55:05 <FireFly> probably won't help them much
16:55:29 <FireFly> since it's trivial to transform each to the other
16:57:44 <zzo38> FireFly: Yes, it is what I meant too
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17:03:49 <zzo38> It is really unusual, but not quite that bad.
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17:04:57 <zzo38> But it is a bit bad, certainly
17:05:15 <zzo38> And it is much esoteric as the stuff mentioned in the prehistory of esoteric programming
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17:44:46 <fizzie> Say no to pets who smoke: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140614-no-smoking.jpg
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19:58:49 <elliott> @tell fowl it would be nice if your quit message didn't have "bitch" in it
20:22:57 <int-e> It's fowl language.
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20:32:44 <mroman> @tell fowl also not boob or tits.
20:34:35 <mroman> then explain why they didn't just design a higher level language and transform that to BANCStar
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20:35:03 <mroman> even that sounds like less effort than what they did
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20:37:26 <FireFly> Especially considering they bothered to make that LIST program for pretty-printing BANCStar to paper..
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20:41:33 <b_jonas> mroman: well, LIST was probably needed to understand existing code, whether one that was written before tools, or ones from the screen generator
20:41:46 <b_jonas> LIST has probably helped in the reverse engineering
20:42:35 <b_jonas> I mean, when they understood part of the language only, they would run an older version of LIST understanding that part of the language on programs by the screen generator to understand more.
20:43:18 <b_jonas> but yes, I really don't understand why they bothered writing raw bancstar instead of translating to it
20:43:24 <b_jonas> at least in assembly level
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20:47:32 <diginet> has anyone here done any work with formal semantcs of programming languages?
20:48:07 <zzo38> b_jonas: It doesn't seem *too* difficult to write.
20:48:22 <zzo38> Although, a macro assembler probably would have been a good idea.
20:48:33 <zzo38> Since you can include comments and metaprogramming
20:48:49 <Bike> never saw a seme i didn't like
20:48:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: and they can start with an assembler that is compatible with the existing syntax
20:49:04 <b_jonas> and incrementally increase it, first with comments, etc
20:49:11 <mroman> he mentioned they wrote _several_ development tools for it
20:49:17 <zzo38> Yes, I do think would be good having an assembler compatible with the existing syntax
20:49:44 <mroman> (but the NFCS wasn't interested in them)
20:49:58 <mroman> I haven't asked what tools exactly
20:50:55 <zzo38> Probably just an assembler which uses the existing syntax but also with macros, comments, and link to prompt file, and names of pages, is enough.
20:51:20 <mroman> you could also easily replace numbers with mnemonics
20:51:33 <mroman> like arith or even add instead of 10000 ...
20:51:35 <zzo38> mroman: No, you can use macro to implement that
20:51:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: just alphabetic symbols for the variables, plus a syntax for multiplying those by 10 and adding a digit, would help first
20:52:01 <b_jonas> so that, you know, you can actually name variables
20:52:09 <b_jonas> instead of just numbering them
20:52:16 <zzo38> I myself would prefer having macros instead though
20:52:23 <b_jonas> ah, that's what you're saying to link to prompt file
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20:53:01 <zzo38> Yes, to link to variables and constants in the prompt file.
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21:12:59 <zzo38> Do you know what values are supposed to be used for the sample numbers in the list of sample numbers for all notes in the instrument?
21:17:16 <zzo38> I assume to put zero
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23:46:32 <zzo38> What is the radio fuzzy when I stand in a particular place?
23:51:21 <zzo38> Do you know if OpenMPT supports any DDE commands?
23:56:35 <oerjan> zzo38: try vacuuming the place so the dust doesn't collect on the radio hth
23:58:01 <oerjan> (only norwegians will understand this pun)
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00:00:18 <boily> good world cup morning.
00:01:55 <Sgeo> http://tagpro-origin.koalabeast.com/sounds/levelmusic1.mp3
00:01:58 <Sgeo> I love this music
00:03:06 <boily> have anyone watched the Italy England match?
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01:48:46 <zzo38> Do you know what the "Wxx" command means in FastTracker? (Wikipedia says it is a "custom sync event", but doesn't describe what that means. OpenMPT documentation does not mention it at all.)
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02:17:22 <FreeFull> zzo38: It'd be something that is used by the playback routine rather than being audible
02:17:52 <FreeFull> Could be used to sync graphics to the music, for example
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02:45:02 <zzo38> FreeFull: I thought probably it does something like that, but could find no documentation.
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03:22:47 <Sgeo> Can someone wake me up when NodeJS 0.12 gets released? Thanks
03:24:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: nodejslist: not found
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03:28:46 <zzo38> Sgeo: How do you want to be notified? Perhaps go on their IRC channel and get notified when the message about it is released?
03:28:56 <zzo38> I don't know when NodeJS 0.12 gets released.
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04:13:01 <zzo38> Could UNIMOD format be extended to allow samples to be OPL2 patches?
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05:04:29 <myname> is there some kind of fancy debugger for haskell? like "whenever you call that function, show me its input"?
05:06:34 <Bike> @google Debug.Trace
05:06:35 <lambdabot> http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/base/Debug-Trace.html
05:07:53 <Sgeo> Postmasters are actual real world entities, and not just used with email?
05:08:40 <Bike> sgeo you're american right. have you ever been west of the mississippi
05:09:06 <Bike> half of everything here is named by some postmaster's whim
05:09:30 <Bike> like, i lived near a town called Moscow, and nobody knows why it's called that because the postmaster was just like "moscow" and that was that
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05:21:37 <myname> that sounds like an awesome job
05:23:53 <Bike> well you only get to do that part once.
05:24:12 <myname> you may just change cities after you name them
05:47:15 <Sgeo> Apparently some people hate Ari Ne'eman
05:50:09 <Sgeo> http://arineeman.blogspot.com/ (note: blog seems to be heavily pseudoscientific)
05:50:48 <Sgeo> "Those of us experienced at curing autism know that all of these behaviors can be eliminated by removing the mercury from the brain that caused the brain to malfunction and produce these behaviors. Removing that mercury from the brain is the best way to eliminate the behavior and end the risk of children being harmed while in restraints."
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05:54:30 <Sgeo> This person seems to believe that Ari Ne'eman is an evil person preventing autistic people from being cured
05:55:15 <Bike> I wonder if there are actually higher rates of autism in places like Minamata.
05:56:54 <Bike> maybe they're too busy with the psychosis and birth defects to care, though
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06:08:07 <kyhwana> Sgeo: why, you stop vaccinating people! duh. (lol mercury hasn't been used in vaccines for ages, etcetc).
06:08:30 <kyhwana> Of course, apparently the seafood/fish supply is racking up loads of mercury these days
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06:53:28 <Sgeo> Oh hey it is about vaccines
06:53:44 <Sgeo> "Why do these psychopaths campaign against helping these children? It's simple. When we cure these children by removing mercury from their brains that was put there via vaccines, it proves that the vaccines caused the brain damage. This reflects poorly on our corrupt medical industry and our corrupt Congress who was bribed to ignore it. So, they hire liars like Ari Ne'eman and his pack of brainwashed idiots who claim they have autism and
06:53:44 <Sgeo> want respect instead of a cure. They present positive language about helping themselves and their own autism but they are NOT autistic at all. "
06:55:15 <Sgeo> Hmm. Suppose it is in fact mercury damage (BS) and suppose they're able to remove it (probably chelation therapy, which is BS in an autism context). How does that prove that it's the vaccines that caused the mercury, if, e.g., fish have it these days
07:04:15 <diginet> Sgeo: abandon hope, all ye who enter here
07:05:05 <Taneb> I am feeling somewhat down.
07:07:55 <Taneb> Partially because I am out of milk
07:08:07 <Taneb> But mostly the not-too-uncommon feeling like a failure.
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11:19:29 <FreeFull> https://github.com/alankila/Junk/tree/master/wav2png
11:19:40 <FreeFull> Apparently using PNG to compress audio is better than FLAC
11:22:41 <Taneb> Now I am curious how JPEG would do
11:28:20 <Taneb> AND I AM INSUFFICIENTLY KNOWLEDGEABLE TO FOLLOW THROUGH ON THIS CURIOSITY
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12:12:26 <FreeFull> Taneb: JPEG would be lossy, of course
12:12:35 <FreeFull> I suspect you'd get good compression but bad quality
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12:48:15 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, some of my best friends are in #archlinux!
12:50:15 <Taneb> Apparently they aren't
12:52:01 <FireFly> Yeah, I stopped idling there because it was too toxic for my taste
12:52:22 <boily> archlinux, toxic? since when? :P
12:52:47 <FireFly> Well I dunno, I didn't like the channel very much
12:54:09 <olsner> Phantom__Hoover: what sort of assholes?
12:54:27 <Taneb> olsner, ones you don't want to fuck with
12:55:16 <Phantom__Hoover> the kind of assholes who will remember bullshit reasons to mock you just to bring them up next time you go in for support
12:55:50 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, does Warwick have much of a CS society?
12:56:21 <Phantom__Hoover> probably? i've never been involved with them so i don't know
12:56:41 <Phantom__Hoover> i have friends who have gone to lan parties and shit so i guess
12:56:58 <Taneb> We have a CS society and a separate gaming society
12:57:05 <Taneb> And then a separate again gamedev society
12:57:44 <olsner> seems like using IRC for support tends to be quite bad in various ways
12:58:01 <Taneb> I am pretty sure I am the only person who is a member of all three
12:58:28 <Phantom__Hoover> olsner, it's still much faster than the alternatives, though
12:58:58 <Taneb> ...I'm using CS to stand for "Computer Science" and not "CounterStrike", btw
13:00:24 <Taneb> I am heading out now, bye!
13:03:20 <impomatic> Phantom__Hoover: is that Warwick, UK?
13:07:29 <Phantom__Hoover> the town of warwick is several miles away and has ~nothing to do with the university
13:10:44 <impomatic> My gf wants to visit the castle there. Hopefully I can convince her to go via Bletchley Park or the computer museum in Leicester.
13:12:30 * impomatic might drop by #archlinux especially to ask really dumb questions :-)
13:20:07 <impomatic> About 50 miles. Not sure how easy it would be on public transport.
13:20:37 <impomatic> The National Museum of Computing is on Bletchley Park. It has a separate entry fee though...
13:21:51 <impomatic> I also want to visit Jim Austin's Computer Collection somewhere near York http://www.computermuseum.org.uk
13:23:30 <impomatic> Looks interesting but it's by appointment only.
13:24:26 <Taneb> I think one of my friends was trying to organize an outing
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15:27:44 <fizzie> It was easy to get to Bletchley Park from London by train, at least.
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17:06:13 <Phantom__Hoover> http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/70839/how-can-you-weigh-your-own-head-in-an-accurate-way
17:07:47 <Phantom__Hoover> why use an axe when you could compute the bulk density with high-energy gamma rays!
17:08:10 <Slereah> Well I'm not made of money
17:08:45 <Slereah> You can go the Archimedes route
17:09:02 <Slereah> And then put a variety of material density with the same volume in water
17:09:12 <Slereah> Wait, no, that doesn't work
17:10:42 <Phantom__Hoover> you need the high-energy gamma rays to work out the density
17:15:01 <Bike> this is pretty good
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19:33:09 <Taneb> Taneb Fact: I have no idea if I have a bike pump
19:33:29 <Taneb> And my unicycle has a flat tyre!
19:34:27 <Quintopia> haha you can use the air pump at a gas station
19:34:46 <Taneb> Hmm, I live near a petrol station
19:38:14 <fizzie> I have dozens of photos of meerkats now. :/
19:39:07 <Taneb> fizzie, enough to advertise an insurance comparison website?
19:39:29 <fizzie> Are they used for that?
19:40:20 <Taneb> http://www.comparethemeerkat.com/
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19:43:31 <fizzie> I have 25+47, if that helps.
19:46:45 <fizzie> (Also lots of tigers and elephants, and one squirrel.)
19:56:44 <FreeFull> http://tylervigen.com/view_correlation?id=7
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20:29:03 <Sgeo> "It is likely impossible to embody an AIXI in our universe, as AIXI is uncomputable. Fortunately, AIXI has a computable approximation AIXItl, which is merely infeasible:"
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20:33:56 <Taneb> Help I've contributed to reviving a dead IRC channel
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20:35:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39843&oldid=39812 * GreyKnight * (+338) clarifying syntax
20:36:40 <Taneb> It's a channel for UK university computer science societies
20:37:30 * impomatic wishes someone would revive FIG UK
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20:39:45 <pikhq> Taneb: All about British figs.
20:40:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39844&oldid=39843 * GreyKnight * (+70) prettify tables a bit
20:40:22 <Taneb> I should learn Forth at some point
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21:14:26 <HackEgo> U+00B7 MIDDLE DOT \ UTF-8: c2 b7 UTF-16BE: 00b7 Decimal: · \ · \ Category: Po (Punctuation, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
21:22:02 <kyhwana> hrm, anyone seen that Verizon report on the stratfor hack?
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21:41:26 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, help there's like people from your place on IRC
21:43:20 <Taneb> Edinburgh AND Warwick University!
21:44:29 <Taneb> All of them are members of some university's CS society
21:44:42 <Taneb> Either Edinburgh Uni or Warwick University
21:46:15 <Taneb> And do you know many people who do CS at Warwick? (iirc you do maths?)
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21:54:17 <kyhwana> https://pdf.yt/d/yGrhyxVVK5yKmbcq is that verizon/stratfor report
21:58:29 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, it appears they do not
22:01:30 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, yes, these Warwick chaps appear not to know you
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22:28:08 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ # -*- encoding: utf-8 -*- \ import re \ import sys, os \ import unicodedata \ def l(c): m = re.match('(?:U[+])?([0-9a-f]{1,5})$', c, re.I); return unicodedata.lookup(c) if m is None else unichr(int(m.group(1),16)) \ try: \ print u''.join(map(l, sys.argv[1:])).encode('utf-8') \ except KeyError: \ os.execvp("multico
22:36:02 <int-e> because doing it nervously, erratically would be dangerous? (I have not looked)
22:37:36 <Phantom__Hoover> also the comments are even more full of assholes than usual
22:44:44 <Sgeo> What happens if the user isn't using a power strip
22:44:55 <Sgeo> And he mentions that
22:45:05 <Sgeo> ok, I should finish watching videos before commenting
22:45:44 <int-e> now do it with one of those: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuko
22:45:56 <Phantom__Hoover> i like how people in the comments are jerking off to their fantasies of blowing an old man^W^W^WTHE FORCES OF TYRANNY up when he's just as likely to electrocute himself operating the thing
22:46:30 <int-e> I think he's more careful and aware of what he's doing than you give him credit for
22:46:31 <Phantom__Hoover> wouldn't work on UK plugs either, we have insulated sleeves on the prongs
22:46:51 <Sgeo> int-e: but if it's meant to be used by general police forces, they need as much training
22:46:56 <int-e> in particular, look how carefully and tightly he holds the live plug in the first half of the video.
22:47:13 <int-e> obviously this needs special training
22:48:34 <Phantom__Hoover> but when he disconnects the line from the hotplug he isn't nearly so careful, and it's still live
22:48:35 <Sgeo> Might be possible to write software to detect that mouse thing
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22:50:10 <int-e> Sgeo: right. shut down on new USB device, unless the user has taken some action in advance.
22:50:41 <Sgeo> Was thinking 'what kind of mouse jiggles like that', but your way is probably easier and safer
22:51:14 <Sgeo> Although, what happens if you accidentally disconnect your real mouse and keyboard
22:51:32 <int-e> tough luck, you shut down, reboot, re-enter your keys
22:52:29 <Phantom__Hoover> if you're anticipating the imminent physical seizure of your computer what are you even doing fucking around with mouse detectors
22:59:42 <Taneb> Man, friendship mouse was so long ago
22:59:51 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, don't you remember friendship mouse?
23:07:26 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
23:07:27 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
23:07:27 <myndzi> |\ c.c /< /| | | /'\ c.c /`\ | |\|/| c.c |\
23:10:13 <myndzi> c.c.c c.c.c c.c.cc.c.c
23:10:28 <int-e> Phantom__Hoover: I wonder whether it's possible to get the chord connecting to the power strip go off when unplugged from the strip. (There has to be some electronic inside the 'hotplug' device anyway, because you have to check that the phases from the UPS and the power supply are synchronized. measuring power drawn from the chord doesn't seem too add much then.)
23:10:57 <int-e> Phantom__Hoover: and it would be a huge boon to safety when there's only one hot plug transfer in the whole process.
23:11:41 <elliott> unless it's musical power.
23:11:59 <Quintopia> or a segment connecting two points on a circle
23:12:16 <Taneb> http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2011-08-10
23:14:59 <int-e> what am I looking at?
23:15:08 <Taneb> int-e, Ctrl-f for mouse
23:15:19 <Bike> this is some good stuff here
23:16:17 <Bike> who cares about mice, i'm takling intidus!
23:16:59 <Taneb> Bike, you can do that for anything itidus has ever said
23:17:59 <Quintopia> oh man, i missed the whole mouse discussion but i remember that: "<zzo38> In Hofstadter's book, Godel Escher Bach, the Lamp is made of copper, the Meta-Lamp is silver, the Meta-Meta-Lamp is gold, it does not say what the Meta-Meta-Meta-Lamp is made of, I can probably guess but what do you think?"
23:18:39 <Bike> the interesting thing is, in 2011 i was having the same stupid arguments
23:18:53 <Bike> isn't it platinum?
23:20:00 <Quintopia> taneb said platinum, Phantom__Hoover said platinum, zzo38 said roentgenium
23:20:13 <Bike> that's a good answer.
23:20:36 <Quintopia> i said the meta-meta-meta-meta-lamp was upsidaisium, but nowadays, i'd probably say gold-pressed latinum
23:21:14 <int-e> thanks so much. "AND THEN I CHECKED FOR IT" haha!
23:21:27 <Bike> huh, i didn't know copper and silver and gold were in the same group o_o
23:21:36 <oerjan> darn i was just looking up röntgenium
23:22:13 <Phantom__Hoover> i see our mouse talk also got rid of ais, another telltale sign of a classic #esoteric moment
23:22:47 <elliott> reading logs from when I was 15 is weird
23:22:57 <oerjan> did this happen before kmc arrived and started leaving
23:23:07 <Taneb> elliott, how has life carried you since?
23:23:29 <elliott> Taneb: um, there hasn't been all that much carrying, mostly I've walked places
23:23:37 <elliott> if anyone wants to carry me though I'm up for that
23:23:46 <Taneb> <Taneb> I like Unity <-- wow I've changed so much
23:23:46 <Bike> great, now i ned to know why VIIIB was three modern groups.
23:24:03 <int-e> aww. "22:39:54: <Phantom_Hoover> I caught it yesterday honestly get in the loop."
23:24:59 <Bike> HA i was older than you, and also not here
23:25:03 <oerjan> y'all kids grew up so fast
23:26:45 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: your lines developed a really free verse style in this log towards the end
23:30:07 <int-e> it was quite an adventure, probably nice to look back after 5 years :)
23:30:46 <elliott> I believe the number you're looking for is 2014 - 2011, aka 3.
23:30:54 <Phantom__Hoover> i wonder what my family do when the cat brings mice in now
23:31:04 <elliott> I mostly feel intense embarrassment looking back three years :p
23:31:37 <Bike> compelling new research suggests that elliott was at some point a kid; researchers disturbed and revolted
23:31:39 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, do you remember whether it was USB or PS/2?
23:31:58 <FireFly> elliott: I know exactly what you mean
23:32:19 <elliott> Bike: I still am, by many people's definition!
23:32:23 <Sgeo> Maybe I should read about Dialyzer. iiuc, it's a type system that instead of rejecting bad programs and some good ones, only ever rejects bad programs at the cost of letting more bad programs through
23:32:38 <Bike> elliott: compelling new research suggests that the present constitutes a point!!
23:32:44 <Taneb> ...I have just realised, I have no idea what sort of life any of you lead
23:32:51 <elliott> Bike: compelling new research suggests that you smell.
23:32:55 <Bike> Taneb: nonstop boozing
23:33:03 <Taneb> If I saw any of you in the street I would not recognize any of you
23:33:13 <Bike> elliott: how did you know? uncanny!
23:33:24 <Phantom__Hoover> to be fair we could only recognise you if you had a yorkshire pudding in your mouth
23:33:39 <Sgeo> "Dialyzer bases its analysis on the concept of success typings which allows for sound warnings (no false positives)."
23:34:13 <Bike> http://37.media.tumblr.com/770145c0e28dd57736f7c011d5bc8815/tumblr_n23an1c9M51r7tprao1_500.jpg here, taneb, have a reference photograph. surprising??
23:35:54 <Taneb> Bike, whoa, you are not a bike
23:36:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39845&oldid=39844 * Zzo38 * (+54)
23:36:22 <Sgeo> I can only assume that gas masks are a kind of bike.
23:36:25 <Bike> i'm actually just a wereman
23:37:33 <nooodl> Bike: every man is a wereman http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/were-#English
23:38:12 <Bike> >back-formation
23:38:49 <elliott> oerjan: can I kick anyone who writes a green line starting with a >?
23:39:08 <Bike> as if you need permission to kick me <3
23:39:13 <oerjan> elliott: you certainly may.
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23:39:28 <oerjan> this is the kind of thing that needs nipping of buds
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23:39:48 <elliott> "nipping of buds" sounds kinda nsfw.
23:40:04 <oerjan> it was kinda intended to.
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23:43:10 * oerjan doesn't quite dare to add budding nipples to the topic.
23:52:07 <int-e> wise words. "the internet is not an air-tight bastion of complete, unwavering good advice"
23:52:32 <elliott> oerjan: so you're saying budding nipples are off-topic?
23:52:46 <elliott> I thought the only thing that was off-topic was esoteric programming languages.
23:53:13 <oerjan> int-e: indeed, there is a severe leakage of hot air involved
23:53:40 <oerjan> elliott: it's not off-topic for the stupidly brave hth
23:53:56 <zzo38> Esoteric programming languages is not off-topic, it is just that it isn't so often on-topic. Sometimes there is stuff to write about it, too.
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00:09:38 <Icepy> Check out my newest language! http://esolangs.org/wiki/Pluso
00:10:17 <Icepy> How would you make a looping construct like the one in brainfuck in python?
00:12:07 <Bike> while loop probably
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00:19:44 <zzo38> Can you please be more specific? Are you trying to interpret the loop in brainfuck, or something else?
00:27:00 <Sgeo> "Let me explain rule number three. If the accumulator is 91, then set it to 32. If the accumulator is 33, set it to 65. You have to print the ASCII value instead of the decimal value
00:27:06 <Sgeo> That's actually a 4th rule, isn't it?
00:27:43 <Sgeo> Also: accumulator starts at 65
00:27:47 <Sgeo> Pretty important to mentio
00:28:05 <Sgeo> Oh, I see, those explain bounds
00:28:49 <Sgeo> It's circular, I kind of like that
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01:56:15 <gerard> hi man, i m a beginer fan of esolangs
01:58:25 <gerard> has someone heard about a esoteric language oriented to deal with issues about triality?
02:00:11 <gerard> yes, not triality of octonions exactly, in general
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02:01:59 <gerard> something like a language with built-in "ternarized" operations
02:04:07 <gerard> ok, a language that accept 3 input and produce 3 output in a simmetrical way?
02:05:04 <Bike> Symmetrical? Like a Toffoli gate?
02:10:33 <gerard> very cool,yes, things like that, but
02:11:51 <gerard> if it serves a inspiration look this, http://vixra.org/abs/0911.0034 , in pages 51 there is a ternary square, in tthe 52 a ternary cube
02:19:29 <gerard> ok, maybe this time i have not much success XD
02:20:56 <gerard> i accept that ternary issues are not very popular XD
02:21:40 <Bike> i don't read spanish and vixra is full of crap, is the thing
02:23:32 <gerard> yes the paper is in spanish, and vixra has "no good reputation", but i wanna to show the figures
02:23:57 <gerard> in case that they inspires something....
02:25:06 <shachaf> copumpkin: whoa, you're not even in #-blah
02:25:13 <shachaf> no wonder you didn't see my message
02:27:54 <Bike> wait, is this arithmetic on a 3d analog of quaternions
02:28:09 <Bike> i'm pretty sure that's usually done as just a subgroupwhatever of quaternions
02:28:14 <Bike> and has nothing to do with toffoli gates
02:29:58 <gerard> yes, but i'm in search of thins about 3, in general, but i more things with ternaryproperties in symmetry
02:32:24 <Bike> but they're unrelated. you'd be better off learning lie groups or something.
02:33:20 <gerard> not necesary unrelated, yes and no
02:36:22 <gerard> that specific observation about Toffoli gate and 3-symmetry yes, but....
02:37:35 <gerard> i'm looking for ways to google, in alternatives way about triality
02:38:25 <gerard> or if you know some paper related to the issue, triality mainly
02:39:17 <gerard> or issues in a ternary version, too
02:41:37 <gerard> i look for this, browsed wikipedia, google, arxiv and others
02:51:15 <gerard> well, also i'd like to post about a movement that has a little fame, right know, and if you know it, i wanna know your opinions
02:51:32 <gerard> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KphWsnhZ4Ag
02:53:13 <gerard> a 50 minute documentary of a social alternative by an 97 year old enginer
02:57:37 <gerard> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uou4DiutW5g
03:02:36 <gerard> ok, i suppose i had some of "answer" this time
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04:05:01 <zzo38> Can we make up a quiz (on Internet Quiz Engine) relating to esoteric programming, the wiki, IRC, and the people on this IRC and what they are doing?
04:20:17 <Quintopia> if by "we" you mean "I", then I'm confident you can.
04:26:40 <zzo38> No, I mean to many people make such things together, including me too.
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05:29:26 <MDude> I'd think stuff about us personally might be better as a separate quiz from stuff that you could find out without hanging out on the IRC.
05:34:35 <zzo38> Maybe, but I mean only the stuff that is actually on the IRC and not stuff more personal than that. Also, stuff on the wiki and about esoteric programming, both in general and specific programming languages.
05:35:03 <zzo38> And even not only that; also thing like IRC bots and stuff used in here too.
05:35:52 <zzo38> Internet Quiz Engine can keep track of up to 78 variables, so that should be more than enough if you want different scores for different things.
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05:57:01 <MDude> Fungot, produce an opinion on this quiz idea.
05:57:24 <MDude> I ask fungot to weigh in on this quiz idea.
05:57:25 <fungot> MDude: so i started to look at the example cgi to specify that all .c and fnord will just do it for any implementation, like the borg. they have much too much homework.
06:26:49 <Sgeo> http://37.media.tumblr.com/62a5b20362709db5949c6add1f2fdfd6/tumblr_n70l5aXm0W1tp1rx8o1_1280.jpg
06:26:57 <Sgeo> Who is the Dr. Wondertainment image?
06:27:09 <Sgeo> Looks almost like King Boomi
06:27:34 <fungot> shachaf: well, yes and no. i've read the grammar... it is probably a o(log(n)) and anonymous closures with ( lambda ( a) ( b ( lambda ( x)
06:28:56 <Sgeo> "So remember, if you, your friends, your family, your pets, or your neighbors have walked into an infant black hole, have been scalded (or vaporized!) by a miniature supernova, have touched anti-matter (or matter if you are composed of the opposite!), or any other space-themed accidents*, do not ask for a refund!"
06:29:02 <Sgeo> "*This includes mosquitoes"
06:38:02 <shachaf> Sgeo: why did you quote that
06:38:02 <shachaf> is it humor value: the absurdity of asking for a refund in a situation like that
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06:41:15 <Sgeo> I may have thought the mosquito bit was also amusing
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08:10:20 <slereah_> I am having some work troubles with semaphores, and I am wondering if I am using even the correct thing
08:10:39 <slereah_> Basically I want a thread to wait until n threads are done to continue, is that the right thing to use
08:13:46 <olsner> a semaphore can be used as a mutex that allows up to n threads to hold the lock, but I don't think you can make a barrier with one
08:15:10 <olsner> or hmm, if you start a semaphore at -n+1, then n threads can release it to get it to 1, then one thread can acquire it
08:15:39 <slereah_> Well that was my first thought
08:15:54 <slereah_> Then I noticed that the semaphore value was unsigned int
08:16:58 <olsner> looks like there is a pthread_barrier
08:25:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BANCStar]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39846 * GreyKnight * (+475) Created page with "== updating LIST == I was trying to update jloughry's LIST program to compile on a modern Unix. I got some distance but the DOS code layered in everywhere is too much of a he..."
08:32:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pluso]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39847&oldid=39839 * GreyKnight * (+92) categorise
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08:44:02 <slereah_> Aw yes, got the synchronization to work B3
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08:52:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pluso]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39848&oldid=39847 * GreyKnight * (+236) equivalent but less confusing formulation
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08:57:40 <b_jonas> BANCStar seems a great language to parodize
09:05:43 <slereah_> Barriers seemed pretty great when there was two threads but anything more and it seems to block at random
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09:56:39 <elliott> this is a channel about mysticism
09:56:45 <elliott> those people are just off-topic.
09:56:57 <elliott> unfortunately they've overrun the place and we can't get rid of them.
09:57:29 <slereah_> So are you seeking ultimate power
09:57:37 * slereah_ puts on his SICP wizard clothes
09:58:02 <slereah_> http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/cover.jpg
10:04:46 <boily> peacetech0: have you visited the Glorious Wiki? taken a peek at the Shiny PDF?
10:07:56 <slereah_> All that multithreading only got my thing twice as fast
10:08:36 <slereah_> Maybe I should rewrite it a bit cleaner, but rewriting is a scary prospect
10:08:54 <slereah_> Fraught with maybe breaking it
10:11:10 <boily> can't you write another thing while the first thing is still thinging?
10:11:43 <slereah_> But first, let's try multithreading the third and final ressource heavy function
10:12:53 <slereah_> and then I guess tightening the code a bit
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11:05:12 <mroman> I thought this was an channel about esoteric stuff
11:05:41 <mroman> one of those three is real .
11:09:00 <Sgeo> Pigs on a plane?
11:11:21 <b_jonas> mroman: I thought we had something about that in the channel topic, but it seems no
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11:18:23 * oerjan looks at gerard's ternary questions.
11:19:07 <oerjan> we tried to publish a paper about a ternary operation once, but it got rejected for not being interesting enough so we just dropped the attempt.
11:21:22 <oerjan> well that was just before i dropped out of research, so...
11:35:08 <mroman> Sgeo: Could make a nice horror movie
11:39:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39849&oldid=39846 * GreyKnight * (+380) /* updating LIST */
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11:49:42 <Taneb> Anyone know why I might be able to ssh into a server but can't ssh out of it?
11:49:57 <Taneb> "server" (it's my desktop in my bedroom)
11:54:21 <int-e> Ideas: DNS misconfigured, some NAT thingy on the way. Oh and does the target have an ssh server running?
11:55:41 <int-e> oh and this is perhaps the most ridiculous idea of all: no ssh client on the server.
11:56:40 <Taneb> Can confirm it is not the last two
11:56:48 <Taneb> May be part of wider network issues
11:57:41 <Taneb> Or perhaps motherboard issues, the headphones aren't working either
11:58:36 <int-e> if you can ssh in then that should rule out problems on the physical layer
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11:59:45 <Taneb> I can currently ssh in well enough to play Dwarf Fortress from 2 miles away
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12:09:29 <mroman> I'm still guessing firewall :)
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12:22:01 <slereah_> What's the linux thing to look at the time spent in each function?
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13:00:10 <Taneb> Just had my face scanned FOR SCIENCE
13:01:02 <coppro> for actual science? or for fake science?
13:01:18 <Taneb> One of my lecturers does research in computer vision
13:03:14 <Taneb> http://www.theengineer.co.uk/news/looks-familiar/304488.article I think
13:18:22 <int-e> with some luck your face will be as famous as the opengl teapot.
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13:37:56 <mroman> Does esoteric science count as fake science?
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13:48:56 <mroman> If you know two pairs of inverses
13:49:10 <mroman> you can reconstruct mod which number they are inverses
13:55:19 <nooodl> not really. 3*15=1 and 5*9=1 holds both mod 22 and mod 44
13:55:57 <nooodl> (i don't know how i ended up giving THAT as an example)
13:57:22 <int-e> also mod 1, 2, 4 or 11
13:57:45 <nooodl> i guess it works mod primes?
13:58:20 <mroman> Ok, not uniquely in every case
13:58:39 <mroman> but I also would have thought at least mod primes
13:59:59 <nooodl> because both 2 and 11 are in that list!
14:00:38 <mroman> If a*b and c*d are inverses
14:00:40 <Taneb> And the rest are all of form 2^n * 11^m
14:00:54 <mroman> the gcd(a*b-1,c*d-1) should gives you the mod part
14:01:51 <mroman> but it's probably more likley that allCommonFactorsOf(a*b-1,c*d-1) work?
14:02:08 <mroman> or factors(gcd(a*b-1,c*d-1))?
14:02:45 <mroman> I think if y = x mod p
14:02:57 <mroman> then y = x mod factors(p)?
14:03:38 <int-e> I guess if you are given 1 < a,b < p with a*b = 1 (mod p) then that is enough to reconstruct p.
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14:26:16 <mroman> a*b = 1 (mod m) kinda means that neither a nor b is a factor of m?
14:26:40 <mroman> or something like that
14:26:59 <Quintopia> although it's a more strict condition than that
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14:35:53 <int-e> Quintopia: (that is, yes, for p prime)
14:36:40 <int-e> mroman: a and b are multipicative inverses of each other, modulo m
14:37:53 <slereah_> Does replacing loops over array indices by loops over pointers improve the performance of code?
14:38:00 <slereah_> Or does the compiler not give a shit
14:38:39 <oerjan> mroman: a*b = 1 (mod m) means that m is a factor of a*b - 1, neither more nor less.
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14:43:38 <Quintopia> slereah_: in C, there is no difference between array index addressing and pointers
14:43:54 <Quintopia> (behind the scenes, it's the same code)
14:44:06 <slereah_> Making the loop for(i=0;i<n;i++)
14:44:23 <slereah_> Or for(ptr=array;ptr<array+n;ptr++)
14:44:51 <Quintopia> it depends on your optimizer i guess
14:44:59 <Quintopia> a good one would make them the same thing
14:45:15 <slereah_> I guess I'm out of optimizing ideas
14:45:25 <Quintopia> in any case, the difference is at most one instruction, so pick whichever makes for the cleanest code
14:52:21 <mroman> slereah_: what does your loop do?
14:52:52 <mroman> is it a 1D or a 2D array?
14:53:52 <slereah_> It sums over another array, does math things to the result, and save it to some array
14:54:01 <mroman> does it contain conditions that are rarely met?
14:54:27 <slereah_> Depends on the size of the neural net
14:54:31 <mroman> if it's large enough you could use openmp and do a sum reduction
14:55:40 <slereah_> Divided among 8 threads, so about 400 per loop
14:56:23 <mroman> Have you checked for false sharing effects?
14:57:10 <mroman> If you distribute stuff to multiple threads but those threads access same memory regions
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14:57:24 <mroman> it won't work really fast.
14:57:49 <mroman> because after each write to memory the CPU will need to do cache writebacks and stuff
14:58:10 <mroman> (if the data is shared)
14:59:55 <mroman> then I'm out of ideas too
15:00:03 <mroman> without seeing the actual code
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15:00:40 <mroman> if you have some conditions if(foo) where foo is only in very rare cases true you could advise gcc with branch prediction stuff
15:01:02 <mroman> (or in only very rare cases false)
15:03:13 <mroman> calculating the sum of an array on a GPU is weird btw ;)
15:07:22 <slereah_> Also the program stops working when I give it too much data D:
15:09:14 <slereah_> Apparently I have a lot of possibly lost memory during the thread creation
15:11:15 <mroman> depending on the structure of your program there's also data speculation or control flow speculation you could do
15:11:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Zzo38]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39850&oldid=34413 * GreyKnight * (+243) /* Esoteric Programming quiz */ new section
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15:29:25 <slereah_> At some point the thread creation fails D:
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15:34:15 <Taneb> `pastequotes taneb
15:34:17 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.6358
15:34:24 <slereah_> Insufficient resources to create another thread, apparently
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15:41:26 <mroman> are you spawning too many threads?
15:42:04 <slereah_> As far as I know, I close down all threads after they're done
15:42:19 <slereah_> Could be a memory leak, since I can't check it with valgrind currentlu
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15:43:14 <slereah_> Is there a tool to check for how many pthreads you have in your program
15:43:32 <mroman> unix threads are just processes I thought
15:43:59 <slereah_> Ah, valgrind has a special thing for threads apparently
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16:29:06 <zzo38> Someone made this ten-question quiz of esoteric programming languages: gopher://zzo38computer.org:70/1quiz.run*eSMi0614. The question about when Feather is made is really strange!
16:32:48 <mroman> and why the hell are you seriously posting a gopher link .
16:33:53 <mroman> FF can't even talk gopher
16:34:05 <int-e> 3 Unterminated filename [eSMi0614]
16:34:28 <int-e> I hear that there's a plugin for FF.
16:35:04 <int-e> oh, of course the . is part of the link.
16:36:15 <mroman> reminds me of the xkcd comic
16:36:23 <mroman> how to embed emoticons in paratheses
16:36:36 <mroman> (Hi there :) or (Hi there :))
16:36:49 <mroman> how to embed punctuation in urls
16:37:57 <int-e> 4/10, about what I expected.
16:39:02 <int-e> I don't get this question, "What is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs?"
16:39:18 <FreeFull> I think I only got the obvious ones
16:40:30 <mroman> I don't support gopher
16:40:40 <int-e> get a gopher client
16:40:45 <mroman> Foolish old technology
16:41:15 <Taneb> The family of terrible esolangs is the brainfuck derivatives
16:41:16 <int-e> Taneb: I don't *understand* the question.
16:42:18 <mroman> You've just insulted one of my esolangs
16:42:34 <mroman> (I don't like them either)
16:42:48 <Taneb> Hmm, I do not have a gopher client
16:44:57 <b_jonas> there are other terrible and uninspired esolangs besides brainfuck derivatives
16:45:38 <Taneb> Yeah, like half of mine
16:52:20 <mroman> The quality of an esolang is determined by how much it's isomorphic to brainfuck .
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16:57:05 <FireFly> I thought that was a boolean property
16:58:13 <mroman> but not the way I meant it
16:58:15 <FireFly> Is there anything apart from zzo's site that's accessible only over gopher and interesting?
16:58:37 <mroman> i.e. how easy it is to write a transpiler from/to brainfuck
16:58:50 <mroman> if it's too easy the language is boring
17:02:09 <zzo38> It is correct the . is part of the URL
17:03:23 <mroman> And once I publish my esolang generator
17:03:30 <mroman> the wiki will be flooded with new esolangs :)
17:04:08 <zzo38> Is not difficult to write gopher client; the format is really easy. If you have a compatible version of Windows, you may use Visgopher.
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17:05:02 <mroman> it even spills out an interpreter for it
17:05:16 <zzo38> I got 9/10 on the esolang quiz. Afterward I checked the source file and found that the question about Feather is the one I answered incorrectly (it is unclear what they want).
17:07:50 <FireFly> What was the answer on the not-predominantly-made-of-integers question?
17:08:37 <zzo38> After answering all the questions you can go back and view the source and see what all the correct answers are.
17:09:20 <mroman> It'd be fun if esolangs came at the final exam tomorrow
17:09:41 <mroman> but they just teached conventional languages
17:09:55 <nooodl> brainfuck plus a constant surely??
17:10:08 <nooodl> re: the worst joke in the observable universe up there
17:10:22 <mroman> I expect a computer scientist to be able to write at least a programm that adds two numbers together just by reading the brainfuck spec
17:10:41 <mroman> but I'm pretty sure if any lecturer did that there'd be a real shitstorm coming
17:11:02 <mroman> "you didn't teach this!!!11"
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17:14:22 <FireFly> mroman: what did it teach?
17:14:23 <nooodl> hey adding numbers together is hard!! (if you use ascii.)
17:14:45 <mroman> FireFly: I don't really remember
17:15:16 <mroman> maybe some Algol and Pascal too
17:15:58 <FireFly> well, maybe not the python3, that sounds boring
17:16:14 <mroman> with an excursus into functional programming
17:16:47 <mroman> nothing special of course
17:16:53 <FireFly> we had a course where we learned prolog, haskell and c
17:17:20 <mroman> that's the only interesting part of the whole course
17:17:37 <FireFly> I dunno, lisp sounds fun to me
17:17:55 <mroman> and Smalltalk is more PITA than anything else
17:17:56 <FireFly> fortran, modula2 and algol moreso from a historical perspective
17:20:00 <mroman> that may be fun for someone who doesn't already know a lot of languages
17:20:37 <zzo38> I happen to like Forth
17:20:57 <mroman> I don't get why they didn't teach at least one stack based language
17:21:03 <mroman> but like 4 or 5 imperative ones
17:22:04 <mroman> java bytecode was also on the list
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17:22:31 <mroman> so many I don't even remember :D
17:22:53 <FireFly> Yeah, they could've tried to cover more paradigms
17:23:15 <FireFly> skip pascal and maybe algol, add forth and an array language
17:23:23 <mroman> I guess they'll focus lisp, prolog and python3 tomorrow
17:23:28 <FireFly> or s/forth/another concatenative language/ if you prefer
17:26:18 <FireFly> I disagree with Q5 in the quiz
17:29:14 <mroman> I only prepared for the crypto final exam on thursday
17:29:50 <mroman> and that roughly means I programmed a lot of programs in TI Basic
17:30:11 <mroman> that print everything including the approach on how to get the solution etc.
17:30:28 <mroman> I basically just have to copy the stuff on the calculator display onto paper
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17:31:41 <zzo38> Are you allowed to use programs that have previously been written on that exam? I think what they had in some exams I did is a rule that you are not allowed to access programs which were written before the exam.
17:32:20 <mroman> Did they check timestamps or what?
17:33:29 <mroman> but I don't know @allowed
17:33:35 <mroman> I just assume I am until they say otherwise
17:33:45 <mroman> the lecturer said you can use a calculator
17:33:51 <mroman> you have to write down the solution step by step
17:33:57 <mroman> except for calculating inverses
17:34:14 <mroman> i.e. you can write 3^-1 mod p = .... without having to do the euclidean thing
17:35:29 <zzo38> As far as I know they didn't usually actually check.
17:36:27 <zzo38> They did sometimes tell you to put the cover from the calculator onto the floor so that you cannot read what is written on it, and to reset the memory in the calculator (and suggest you make backups if you have any files you want saved).
17:36:49 <Phantom_Hoover> earlier today i went into a physics exam without a calculator
17:37:41 <mroman> If you can program it you know how it works anyway
17:38:56 <mroman> Seeing as a program is just a step-by-step description
17:39:14 <mroman> You're also allowed to bring the script with you
17:39:20 <mroman> which contains a step-by-step instruction too
17:39:49 <mroman> it'd be like saying "You can bring 14 pages with your own notes"
17:39:54 <zzo38> I know, that if you can program it you know how it works anyways.
17:40:00 <mroman> rather than saying "you may bring the book with you"
17:40:07 <mroman> if I can bring 14 pages I can also bring the book
17:40:17 <mroman> the only difference is I don't have to small print the book onto 14 pages
17:40:27 <zzo38> If you are allowed to bring your own notes, then yes you should definitely also be allowed to program the calculator ahead of time too.
17:41:07 <mroman> heck you can even bring final exams with solutions from last semester
17:41:20 <mroman> hoping they just change some numbers or constants
17:41:42 <zzo38> Then that can be good as examples, at least, even if that isn't all they change.
17:42:20 <mroman> "Prove that this thing here is a carmichael number"
17:42:29 <mroman> the only thing they can change IS the number ;)
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17:43:07 <zzo38> I don't know what a carmichael number is, so I don't know if the method of proof can be changed too
17:43:24 <mroman> a carmichael number is square free
17:43:39 <mroman> and for every prime factor p of n, p-1 divides n-1
17:44:02 <mroman> you tell your calculator to factorize it, check if a factor occurs twice
17:44:12 <mroman> then check forall p if p-1 mod n-1 is 0
17:44:18 <mroman> of course, I have a program for that :)
17:46:06 <mroman> Carmichael numbers are those sneaky numbers where the fermat primality test sucks at
17:46:41 <zzo38> I remember once I had an exam where the rule was you were allowed to bring your own notes, but they have to fit on one side of a index card that you can read without using any special equipment, and it has to be hand-written.
17:47:25 <mroman> sounds like a challenge of who can write the smallest
17:47:45 <nortti> I like the addition "you can read without using any special equipment"
17:48:13 <mroman> also that's unfair to people who can't read small stuff .
17:48:21 <mroman> or write small stuff .
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17:48:44 <nortti> or who whose habdwriting becomes hard to read when small
17:48:45 <mroman> and possibly for people like me who are too lazy to bother even using an index card .
17:49:14 <mroman> I remember showing up to some open book final exams without a book
17:50:07 <mroman> and when I got asked why I replied "Well, if I can't do it without a book I suck and don't deserve to pass anyway"
17:50:48 <mroman> how big is an index card actually?
17:54:00 <mroman> I think for the exam tomorrow I've printed out like 300 A4 pages
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17:55:55 <zzo38> Yes I think it is 7cm x 12cm; I do not quite remember
17:56:38 <FireFly> zzo38: is a pair of glasses "special equipment"?
17:56:44 <mroman> for all the final exams probably around 1k A4 pages
17:56:52 <mroman> (final exams this semester)
17:57:10 <zzo38> I think glasses you normally wear is OK, but not magnifying glass and microscope and camera and stuff like that
17:57:12 <mroman> all for nothing. those poor trees :(
17:58:14 <FireFly> Well, why didn't you print on both sides?
17:58:30 <FireFly> and also scaled down to A5 to fit four pages per sheet
17:58:31 <mroman> I don't know how to do that
17:58:35 <zzo38> Paper can be reused and recycled, and trees can be replanted. I prefer to reuse before to recycle, so sometimes when I want to write on a spare paper I will get some that someone has put in the recycling, or write on the other side (or possibly even the printed side) of something I have previously printed from the computer.
17:58:42 <mroman> And those are 4 pages per page
17:58:53 <mroman> sometimes even more than 4
17:59:41 <mroman> otherwise it would be 5 times as expensive to print out
18:01:09 <FireFly> <mroman> I remember showing up to some open book final exams without a book ← I've done that too, but mostly because I didn't bother to buy the book in the first place
18:01:44 <mroman> usually printing out the slides of the lecturer is enough
18:02:04 <mroman> after the first year you know that buying the book is just expensive as shit and doesn't really help you at the exams anyway
18:02:07 <Taneb> The only open book exam I've done, the book was "Python 2's documentation"
18:02:18 <zzo38> If you have your own copy of a book, is it OK to add your own writing into the book too?
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18:03:54 <mroman> open book here means "bring whatever you want that's not electronics"
18:04:12 <mroman> i.e. you can bring as much as you can carry ;)
18:04:27 <mroman> you could bring your favorite fantasy book and read it during the exam
18:04:33 <mroman> I actually considered that
18:04:45 <mroman> some lecturers have this sucky policy that you can't leave before 90 minutes
18:04:55 <mroman> it's really boring just sitting there for 45 minutes
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18:06:00 <FireFly> All of our exams have some standardised time until you can leave
18:06:33 <FireFly> Because you're also allowed begin writing if you're up to 55 minutes late
18:06:51 <FireFly> but they can't let anyone in to begin writing once somebody has left the room, since they could've gotten answers from the other guy then
18:06:52 <mroman> we don't hav that @lat
18:06:57 <mroman> but you still cant leave early sometimes
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18:07:21 <coppro> you also can't leave in the last 10 minutes, to avoid a flood of students leaving and distracting those who are madly scrambling to get as much down as they can
18:09:38 <Melvar> That last is the rule here as well.
18:10:21 <FireFly> mroman: if you're a bit late to an exam, you don't get to write it at all?
18:21:43 <int-e> consider the disturbance to the other students
18:33:16 <mroman> FireFly: officially, yes
18:33:24 <mroman> you just get less time
18:34:42 <mroman> disturbance is overrated
18:35:36 <mroman> as if the exam setting isn't disturbing too :)
18:37:37 <mroman> FireFly: why would you be late to an exam anyway
18:38:09 <FireFly> commuter rail issues or whatever
18:38:54 <FireFly> I mean, sure, you usually have a bit of margin, but sometimes there are major traffic issues
18:39:09 <mroman> that counts as acts of god
18:39:34 <mroman> and you're pretty fucked if god acts to your misfortune
18:39:59 <mroman> If you're on holidays and your plane crashes
18:40:15 <mroman> it will be cut from your holiday days
18:40:22 <mroman> and from your salary too
18:40:25 <coppro> if you're an atheist, can you still make an acts of god argument?
18:40:37 <mroman> but that's what leo.org listed as "hoeher Gewalt"
18:40:42 <mroman> we just call it "hoehere Gewalt"
18:40:57 <mroman> which word for word translates to higher power I guess
18:45:36 <coppro> elliott: lying might be against the school code of conduct
18:46:10 <elliott> coppro: but "act of god" is a term of art, you can't be blindly reductionist about language.
18:46:22 <int-e> coppro: of course, it's a legal term in some jurisdictions
18:46:35 <coppro> elliott: what if I don't consider it art
18:47:03 <int-e> I like this definition (Scotland): "Circumstances which no human foresight can provide against, and of which human prudence is not bound to recognize the possibility, and which when they do occur, therefore, are calamities that do not involve the obligation of paying for the consequences that may result from them."
18:47:38 <elliott> tbf, I'm sure there are quite some "acts of god" that have a human cause, just an indirect one.
18:50:19 <int-e> it has something to do with the length of a chain of causality, I think
18:51:50 <int-e> if I get stuck on the way to work because the police is blocking streets after a bank robbery that doesn't make the bank robbers agents of god (though they may well think of themselves that way)
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18:52:28 <int-e> but from my perspective there's nothing I could've done to foresee and guard against such circumstances.
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19:03:52 <mroman> int-e: so's when you get snowed in
19:03:59 <mroman> except snowed in doesn't count as act of god
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19:07:40 <mroman> you could have gone by train!
19:08:03 <mroman> @bank robbery HOW MUCH DID YOU STEAL
19:08:22 <int-e> editing distance 2 from "ask"
19:08:51 <int-e> I mean, the bot told you that much: <lambdabot> What should I ask robbery?
19:09:32 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
19:09:45 <Melvar> ↑ Too bad that’s three.
19:11:35 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
19:11:49 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
19:12:10 <mroman> I don't really see why somebody implemented that but ok.
19:12:32 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
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19:13:46 <elliott> ha, @messages-lewd is good
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21:44:49 <Bicyclidine> lesson learned, the busy beaver for 512 chars of C is 'very big'
21:47:06 <nortti> http://qntm.org/files/trollpi/piequals4.png
21:47:25 <Bicyclidine> loader.c is also great but i have no idea how to understand hte actual code
21:48:48 <Bicyclidine> doubt i could after gcc -E in all honesty.
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22:00:13 <Phantom_Hoover> you can tell it was written before wikipedia because he refers you to an actual book for the definition of grassman sequences
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22:13:23 <Phantom_Hoover> loader also did give the code he used to generate loader.c: http://djm.cc/ralph-loader.tar
22:13:25 <Taneb> ...I was written before Wikipedia
22:13:32 <boily> mroman: mrhelloman. why the confidential informant?
22:15:52 <oerjan> my soap joins the flood of brands that the manufacturers insist on changing into something i don't like :(
22:16:15 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:16:54 <boily> are Norwegian brands particularly known to be prone to sudden detrimental changes?
22:17:19 <oerjan> they made a test showing most prefer the new smell, but i _hate_ fruity smell in soaps :(
22:18:16 <oerjan> i suppose windows 8 counts as a non-norwegian example.
22:18:51 <Sgeo> In BitCoin news: http://www.pcworld.com/article/2364000/bitcoin-price-dips-as-backers-fear-mining-monopoly.html
22:19:05 <oerjan> oh i haven't checked bitcoin in a while
22:19:11 <boily> mining monopoly? interesting.
22:19:32 <Sgeo> Yeah, the thing that wasn't supposed to realistically happen happened
22:19:33 <boily> oerjan: I dunno. I like grapefruit-scented soap.
22:20:06 <Sgeo> Why am I looking at Golang?
22:20:18 <Sgeo> It might not have Node.js's callback hell, but it has node.js's error hell
22:21:03 <boily> Sgeo: look at rust! rust is good!
22:21:11 <Sgeo> Rust isn't 1.0 yet
22:21:17 <FireFly> 512 characters excluding witespace is plenty to generate huge number
22:21:53 <Taneb> Is there anyone apart from me for whom the first programming language they learnt was esoteric?
22:22:29 <FireFly> I think mIRC scripting almost counts
22:23:20 <FireFly> Taneb: what was your first language?
22:24:07 <FireFly> So you wrote piet programs without knowing any programming language beforehand?
22:31:59 * impomatic occasionally uses GWBASIC because I'm too lazy to rewrite my old programs...
22:40:04 <oerjan> my first language was BASIC, learned from a book without a computer
22:44:44 <Taneb> FreeFull, without a computer? Amazing!
22:45:50 <Bicyclidine> started with minuteman II control systems, as god intended
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22:49:48 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: loader.c is nice, or rather, its readable version.
22:52:21 <Sgeo> I see a form of callback hell in languages that aren't JS: In Ruby and Scheme... things like passing in a closure to a function that opens a file and closes the file when the closure is done
22:52:58 <int-e> I wonder if I can find a copy of that FLO83 article
22:53:26 <Sgeo> If the node.js community manages to handle the normal callback hell sanely (especially at 0.12), maybe they could also handle this other callback hell?
22:53:59 <Sgeo> Racket is perfectly capable of abusing continuations to do it, but I don't think it's idiomatic
22:54:07 <Bicyclidine> http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=322370 no abstract, pah
22:54:41 <int-e> ya, university has access
22:56:13 <FireFly> Sgeo: what changed in 0.12?
22:56:43 <Sgeo> Node.JS will support ES6 -- including generators
22:56:45 <FireFly> I haven't been paying attention to node for a while
22:56:47 <int-e> Bicyclidine: here's an abstract (with some encoding issues): http://libra.msra.cn/Publication/787214/the-expressiveness-of-simple-and-second-order-type-structures
22:57:23 <FireFly> Neat, I hope that includes destructuring assignments and fat-arrow functions
22:57:52 <Bicyclidine> for some reason i am most used to encoding problems in papers from old ieee and acm papers
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22:58:17 <boily> FireFly: fat arrows, as in coffeescript?
22:58:49 <FireFly> They behave similarly, yes
22:59:17 <FireFly> though not exactly the same--ES6's fat-arrow functions can't be used as constructors IIRC
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23:00:55 <Bicyclidine> well, and also archive scans, but that's obvious
23:13:56 <Sgeo> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/16/delta-landing-joke_n_5499323.html
23:16:15 <boily> huh. firefox crashed. must be a sign.
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01:52:13 <Sgeo> I.... think I like Go's if better than aif
01:52:22 <Sgeo> (except for the whole it's not a ternary operator thing)
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05:21:15 <b_jonas> you know how tcsh is the best esoteric shell, because it supports goto even in interactive mode gotoing among separately entered commands?
05:21:34 <b_jonas> I wonder if anyone had modified tcsh to support computed come from in shell scripts yet.
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06:01:37 <coppro> did someone dump hackego's quote database into qdb.us?
06:07:28 <Slereah> Wait, why was Y2K even a problem
06:10:09 <Slereah> But that's just on the screen
06:10:51 <Slereah> So literaly the only source of error would be human error if that was the problem, unless the date was in BCD in the computer
06:10:55 <elliott> you have a year input, it takes two digits
06:11:11 <elliott> you have a "get year" function, it returns the number of years since 1900, tada
06:11:33 <Slereah> Did js even exist back then?
06:11:38 <Bike> 19A0, as it were
06:12:33 <Slereah> Weren't a lot of like COBOL computers in BCD or something
06:12:49 <Slereah> Because they were used by non-engineers mostly
06:13:15 <elliott> ..yes, js existed before 2000
06:13:17 <Bike> it's not like engineers never get the idea to use something weird like bcd
06:13:21 <elliott> js was wildly popular before 2000.
06:13:35 <Bike> vbscript is going to take js's market share, though
06:14:16 <elliott> anyway lots of web pages think it is 19114
06:14:44 <elliott> they are mistaken. it is in fact september 1993
06:14:55 <Slereah> I wonder if there is some 1996 webpage hidden somewhere in the depth on internet
06:15:08 <Slereah> A fan webpage of Hanson and Spacejam
06:15:11 <Bike> @google one terabyte of kilobyte age
06:15:12 <lambdabot> http://oneterabyteofkilobyteage.tumblr.com/
06:15:12 <lambdabot> Title: One Terabyte of Kilobyte Age Photo Op
06:15:15 <Slereah> That thinks it is the year -14
06:18:59 <Bike> actually i suppose they're past 93 now. they switched to ie, i guess t hey're trying some kind of chronology
06:23:06 <elliott> it ends with a screenshot of your browser viewing the page in present day
06:23:48 <Bike> pans out to me screaming in a theater
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06:52:38 <elliott> ok who on earth actually submitted all the quotes to qdb.us
06:52:45 <elliott> and what the fuck were you thinking
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07:23:11 <olsner> which quotes? #esoteric quotes?
07:29:50 <elliott> including the ones that are not even defensible as in any way good and make no sense outside the context of the channel
07:30:05 <elliott> and thi sinvolved reformatting them on multiple lines so someone put way too much effort into spamming qdb with our crap
07:31:47 <Bike> listen, i don't want to defend this or anything, but i don't think it's gonna be much worse than the rest of qdb.
07:44:09 <mroman> I can't find any quote from here there
07:47:32 <olsner> looks like they're in the queue
07:52:42 <fizzie> POSIX's (and all similar) struct tm has a tm_year member that's also year-1900, so a lot of C programs also think it's 19114.
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07:57:51 <mroman> printf("19%d", tm.year)?
07:58:24 <mroman> they should just have reset the calendar to 1900
07:58:30 <mroman> for backwards compatability
07:58:44 <mroman> and to confuse historians in the future
07:59:13 <slereah_> They should use unsigned ints in number of seconds since the big bzn
07:59:13 <mroman> no sense in making their job intentionally easier.
07:59:21 <mroman> it's supposed to be a mystic job!
08:00:12 <slereah_> How many bits is that, like 70?
08:01:44 <slereah_> You'll be fine until 10790283070806014188970529154990 years
08:02:06 <mroman> then what you gonna do?
08:02:29 <slereah_> Then you have the year 10790283070806014188970529154990 bug
08:02:40 <mroman> and hoping no banks will collapse due to the 2^128 bug
08:02:41 <slereah_> Or Y10790283070806014188970529154990K, as it is known
08:03:49 <slereah_> With some luck the universe will have been destroyed by that time
08:03:59 <slereah_> But then again that's the attitude that led to Y2K
08:04:09 <slereah_> "Oh yeah with the cold war we're all gonna be nuked by the 80's"
08:05:13 <mroman> I still think that'll be true for about 2050
08:05:51 <slereah_> Nah, nukes are all out of fashion
08:09:50 <mroman> but history taught us that things don't really happen fast :)
08:10:18 <mroman> Even if you bought games from the 90s
08:10:28 <mroman> the way those game designers saw 2012
08:10:55 <slereah_> Or both, in the case of Duke Nukem Forever~
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08:29:17 <slereah_> Fuck huge memory leak and I don't know what's wrong!
08:32:45 <slereah_> And the more threads it has, the faster it grows
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08:38:10 <Taneb> @tell Phantom_Hoover Don't look at r/haskell unless you have a brick handy
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08:43:01 <slereah_> Apparently C prefers that I join my threads rather than cancel 'em
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08:46:23 <mroman> Why would you cancel them
08:46:27 <mroman> It's not even guaranteed to work
08:46:34 <mroman> as threads can be in uncanceable states etc.
08:46:38 <slereah_> Because I have no idea what happens to threads when they are done
08:47:25 <mroman> join just waits for them to exit
08:48:27 <slereah_> But then why would cancelling them after they are done cause a memory leak
08:50:12 <mroman> you shouldnt cancel terminated threads anyway
08:50:48 <slereah_> Then why does that function exist
08:51:22 <olsner> either join each thread, detach it or create it detached
08:51:35 <mroman> generally cancelling threads isn't really a nice way of doing things
08:51:47 <mroman> I think the general opinion is to use sync mechanisms to do that
08:52:11 <mroman> thread apis in other languages usually don't even support that anymore @killing other threads
08:52:34 <mroman> anyway... pthread_cancel takes a pthread_t
08:52:41 <mroman> depending on what pthread_t is
08:52:49 <mroman> maybe it's a thread id of some sort
08:52:55 <mroman> and maybe that thread id gets reused at some point
08:53:07 <mroman> so it might even be the case that you'll cancel a completely different thread
08:53:21 <mroman> because it reuses the thread id of some thread that has already terminated
08:55:10 <mroman> either join or detach them
08:55:27 <mroman> when a detached thread terminates it's released without having to join on it
08:56:58 <mroman> slereah_: Some resources are kept when a thread terminates
08:57:11 <mroman> so you can ask for the exit status later on
08:57:32 <mroman> which is why you'll have lots of orphan threads (or whatever they are called) around
08:57:39 <mroman> unless you either join or detach them
08:57:41 <b_jonas> exactly, cancelling threads or throwing asynchronious exceptions to threads is generally so dangerous and hard to get right that it's not worth to even try, except on this channel
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08:58:48 <mroman> Just consider a thread having a lock
08:59:04 <mroman> I'm not even sure if locks are released if a thread gets canceld
08:59:11 <mroman> I hope so, but I'd have to check that someday
08:59:22 <b_jonas> they should not be released
08:59:41 <mroman> for pure calculation stuff cancelling is probably not so problematic
08:59:50 <slereah_> I don't want orphans in my computer :(
09:00:20 <slereah_> But yeah, my neural network thing was taking like
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09:01:58 <mroman> You could use cleanup_push
09:02:10 <mroman> and make sure that you release the lock in the cleanup handler you pushed
09:02:25 <mroman> That's probably more #esoteric style .
09:02:37 <slereah_> Well it is a work thing, so I'd rather do it cleanly
09:04:29 <slereah_> I should try to do an esolang based on pi calculus someday
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11:03:39 <oerjan> oh someone fixed the content-type problem with tunes
11:08:40 <ais523> tunes actually being maintained feels wrong to me, somehow
11:08:56 <ais523> I have this mental image of the whole place having been abandoned years ago, being updated only by clog
11:09:43 <int-e> running like clogwork?
11:10:21 <oerjan> ais523: well _maybe_ it was an IE bug that was fixed instead.
11:10:50 <ais523> oerjan: the one where you can XSS attack a plain text file? that was probably the one
11:11:25 <oerjan> ais523: well the tunes files end in .listofnumbers
11:11:41 <oerjan> and perhaps IE just stopped assuming those to be text.
11:12:40 <oerjan> i need something in paste/ to check that.
11:12:55 <oerjan> although that _may_ have been the hg browser's settings.
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11:13:17 <callforjudgement> [12:12] <ais523> well, IE had a bug where it would interpret an explicit text/plain as text/html whenever it felt like it
11:13:17 <callforjudgement> [12:12] <ais523> the standard workaround used to be to serve plaintext files as text/css
11:13:18 <callforjudgement> [12:12] <ais523> which is interpreted the same way as text/plain by all browsers but IE, which interprets it the same way other browsers interpret text/plain
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11:13:36 <oerjan> gah why must my browser have forgotten the hg repository url
11:14:29 <int-e> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ ?!
11:15:00 <oerjan> ais523: i find it unlikely that IE interpreted tunes logs as html at any point?
11:15:22 <ais523> oerjan: someone sent you to meatspin like that, didn't they?
11:16:40 <oerjan> ais523: ok there have been weird cases, but what happened recently was that it refused to open and asked to download instead.
11:17:14 <ais523> ah right, so an entirely different bug
11:17:50 <oerjan> nope, hg repository still does that.
11:18:19 <oerjan> (and that was, i recall, an intentional security enhancement.)
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11:20:36 <ais523> oh gah I was going to report a bug in something
11:20:42 <ais523> but I've forgotten both what the bug is, and what package I was going to report it in
11:20:44 <oerjan> in any case nothing happened on the clog side of the netsplits anyway :P
11:20:50 <ais523> or, ooh, I just remembered a different bug, anyway
11:21:05 <ais523> five-or-more sets the permissions incorrectly on the score file
11:21:53 <ais523> nah, not much point in reporting bugs against a 10-year-old game
11:22:05 <ais523> I remembered what it is, anyway
11:22:12 <oerjan> well, nethack 4 then, except then you'd fix it not report it
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11:22:24 <ais523> funny-manpages puts manpages in section 1 that should be in section 7
11:22:33 <ais523> even if they're joke manpages, they should still be in the right section
11:28:15 <int-e> dungeon crawl stone soup is another roguelike that came up here recently
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12:17:08 <ais523> gah, I enter the wrong password into sudo 3 times
12:17:35 <ais523> this is completely pointless from a security point of view because an attacker could just confirm the password using some other method (e.g. passwd) before entering it into sudo
12:18:49 <ais523> meanwhile, here's my first attempt to submit a patch to Ubuntu: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/five-or-more/+bug/1330956
12:19:02 <ais523> if nothing happens for a bit, I'll see if it's a bug in Debian too, and if it is, file the bug there
12:19:14 <ais523> (note: for this particular package, it's possible that it isn't, although there's no "ubuntu" suffix on the version number so it probably is)
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12:22:12 <oerjan> oh five-or-more is the name of the game
12:22:26 <oerjan> i thought it was a condition for the bug to happen
12:24:54 <b_jonas> oerjan: I thought the same bug was present in a games package for the high score table of five or more games
12:25:43 <ais523> b_jonas: that is possible; many games (well more than five) were originally in the gnome-games codebase before it was split into smaller packages
12:25:48 <ais523> and IIRC at least one other (that I don't have installed) has that bug
12:27:17 <ais523> it'll also be fun to see what (if anything) is done about copyright for a patch that deletes one line
12:27:23 <ais523> it's the first time I've submitted a pure-deletion patch anywhere
12:27:40 <ais523> "How many lines of code do you have in Five Or More?" "-1"
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12:30:07 <ais523> also, I think I'm still running at 100% for "proportion of bugs I found in Gnome that I submitted patches for"
12:31:09 <b_jonas> maybe you don't use gnome enough
12:31:25 <ais523> I don't use it that much, indeed
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12:36:57 <b_jonas> do you count all the infrastructure projects that gnome has spawned, but that are used outside gnome, like libglib, gtk+, pango, etc?
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15:16:45 <mroman> I really hate exam questions
15:17:00 <mroman> "Code generation is the most time consuming phase of a compiler? [ ] Yes [ ] No"
15:17:08 <mroman> How the hell am I supposed to answer thta
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15:17:40 <FireFly> We don't usually have yes/no questions like that on our exams
15:17:52 <FireFly> Not sure if coins are permitted on exams
15:18:29 <b_jonas> roll d6, if result odd, pick Yes, otherwise pick No
15:18:51 <FireFly> [x] Yes -- chosen by fair dice roll
15:20:18 <mroman> there actually was a "Don't know" option too
15:20:30 <mroman> I just checked all three of those boxes
15:20:44 <ais523_> I bet there's at least one for which the answer is yes; also, IIRC the answer is no for gcc
15:21:18 <b_jonas> it depends on settings, not just the compiler
15:21:26 <ais523_> oh, all these BF-to-high-level-language-by-textual-subtitution compilers
15:21:31 <ais523_> spend their /entire time/ in code generation
15:21:32 <mroman> gcc with optimization enabled is really slow
15:21:35 <mroman> compared to no optimization
15:21:43 <ais523_> so those are definitely yes
15:21:45 <mroman> and I don't think optimization has that much an influence on the parser
15:22:12 <ais523_> optimization doesn't have that much influence on codegen either, though
15:22:20 <ais523_> it mostly affects how long the optimizer takes to run (fairly obviously)
15:23:14 <mroman> for some esolang compilers reading the file to compile is probably the most time consuming task
15:23:26 <mroman> (and write the output)
15:23:55 <mroman> not sure if reading file counts as parsing and writing file counts as codegen
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15:32:47 <mroman> Obviously I could create an esolang that requires a compiler to do prime factorization
15:33:26 <b_jonas> mroman: or just play tricks with haskell or C++ or other languages
15:33:28 <mroman> There's a list of primes that encode the opcode
15:34:00 <mroman> and operands are encoded with primes too
15:34:12 <mroman> so an add instruction is something like 9*13*17
15:34:19 <mroman> where 9 is the opcode and 13,17 are the operands
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15:35:51 <MDude> Nine would just be 3 applied twice?
15:36:56 <mroman> p is the opcode, x the first operand and y the second operand
15:37:05 <mroman> that should be uniquely deconstructable
15:37:48 <lambdabot> 6149276275598477388941702188757835746814475554454696977361857718474664018531...
15:39:13 <mroman> people claim that programmes used to program with this in the nineties .
15:40:13 <int-e> > let c n 0 = 1; c n k = c (n-1) (k-1) * n `div` k; triple a b c = c (a+b+c+2) 3 + c (a+b+1) 2 + c a 1 in triple 13 128 256
15:40:15 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
15:40:16 <lambdabot> c :: a3 -> a4 -> a2 (bound at <interactive>:1:62)
15:40:16 <lambdabot> b :: a3 (bound at <interactive>:1:60)
15:40:52 <int-e> > let bin n 0 = 1; bin n k = bin (n-1) (k-1) * n `div` k; triple a b c = bi (a+b+c+2) 3 + bin (a+b+1) 2 + bin a 1 in triple 13 128 256
15:40:53 <lambdabot> ‘b’ (line 1), ‘bin’ (line 1), ‘pi’ (imported from Prelude)
15:41:04 <int-e> > let bin n 0 = 1; bin n k = bin (n-1) (k-1) * n `div` k; triple a b c = bin (a+b+c+2) 3 + bin (a+b+1) 2 + bin a 1 in triple 13 128 256
15:41:30 <mroman> binomial coefficients?
15:42:00 <Bike> psh, they have infinite uses
15:42:02 <int-e> in this case, for encoding triples of natural numbers as natural numbers
15:44:07 <MDude> I think p would have to not only be prime, but laos larger than 3.
15:45:24 <mroman> A language where state is a number
15:45:30 <mroman> and you can multiply divide it by two
15:45:48 <mroman> *p,x multiplies the state by p^x
15:46:01 <mroman> /p,x divides the state by p^x
15:46:21 <mroman> [x loops as long as x divides the state
15:46:40 <mroman> *2,128 *3,156 [2 /2,1 *3,1] should add 128+156
15:47:54 <mroman> maybe add an indirect operator
15:48:10 <mroman> $2 gives you how many times 2 divides the state
15:48:46 <int-e> mroman: are you aware of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FRACTRAN ?
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18:05:06 <fizzie> As far as I can tell, an eagle-owl is just an owl with nothing in particular to do with an eagle, despite the name.
18:06:50 <fizzie> I don't think that really differentiates it from owls in general, though.
18:07:27 <Slereah> It's a very popular owl in America
18:07:33 <Slereah> Millions of people watch it every year
18:08:05 <fizzie> I'm not familiar with that owl.
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18:18:48 <Quintopia> What about the H Owl? It saw the best minds of its generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical
18:19:04 <Quintopia> Or the Mightyt Owl? Very popular in Pittsburgh
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18:20:01 <elliott> owl ban you all if you keep this up
18:21:10 <Quintopia> sounds like someone's a mr. grumpypants. what's wrong? got a headache?
18:22:04 <ais523_> Quintopia: that brand name isn't in use in the UK
18:22:19 <Quintopia> ais523_: neither is Mighty Towel or Super Bowl
18:22:21 <ais523_> I'm aware of it, but am not quite sure what medicine it refers to
18:22:21 <elliott> Quintopia: a nasty cold, actually, but I like banning people no matter how ill I am
18:22:44 <ais523_> I'm not even sure if that has a dominant manufacturer in the UK
18:22:45 <elliott> ais523_: which is referred to as acetaminophen generically in the US
18:23:06 <ais523_> Calpol is the one I can think of offhand, but it's mostly marketed at parents to give to their children
18:23:30 <ais523_> rather than for adults to take themselves
18:23:42 <Quintopia> elliott is good at translating to American. does that mean we've rubbed off on him?
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18:25:26 <ais523_> being British and living on the Internet for any extended period of time makes you quite good at US/UK translations
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18:27:00 <tswett> So! What's the best formalism of an analog signal?
18:27:29 <elliott> Quintopia: who has rubbed one off on me is none of your business
18:28:23 <ais523_> this isn't a particularly /useful/ formalism for analog work, given that it interprets all values that aren't at either voltage rail as W (or if you're unlucky, X)
18:28:44 <ais523_> but it nonetheless formalizes analog signals, and is good
18:29:17 <tswett> Remind me what U, W, and Q are.
18:29:44 <nooodl> remind me what all of those are
18:30:24 <tswett> 0 is low voltage, low impedance. 1 is high voltage, low impedance. X I think is unspecified voltage, unspecified impedance. L is low voltage, medium impedance. H is high voltage, medium impedance. Z is unspecified voltage, high impedance.
18:30:45 <ais523_> tswett: X is the value you get if you connect a 0 to a 1
18:31:08 <ais523_> depending on the circuit design, it either means "somewhere between 0 and 1, low impedance", or "your circuit just caught fire"
18:31:34 <ais523_> U is the value the hardware defaults to if you don't give it any instructions at all
18:31:55 <ais523_> W is any medium impedance value other than L or H
18:32:07 <ais523_> and I'm not convinced Q exists, I think I might have made it up by mistake when listing the options
18:32:18 <tswett> What are all these things called, again?
18:32:48 <tswett> Here we go. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_1164
18:33:49 <ais523_> I should have listed that one, rather than making up an extra value because I remembered there were 9 but not what the 9th one was
18:34:27 <ais523_> "The "Z" value does exist in real-world circuits but only as an output state."
18:34:36 <ais523_> I'm sure Microchip would have a few words to say about that
18:34:52 <ais523_> they were the masters of finding ways to abuse chips for unintended purposes
18:35:06 <tswett> All my input pins are 0.
18:35:32 <tswett> This lets me see what's going on using an ammeter.
18:35:38 <ais523_> well, if you try to read an input pin as an output, you read a Z
18:35:55 <ais523_> but it's going to look like a 0 or a 1 unless you have very specialised input circuitry to connect it to
18:36:29 <tswett> Small amount of noise, it's a 0 or a 1. Large amount of noise, it's a Z.
18:36:53 <ais523_> my method would be to switch a small-valued resistor in and out
18:36:58 <ais523_> and see how much it changed the voltage by
18:37:10 <ais523_> or really, you could just use a bias to make Z read 0.5 or whatever
18:38:02 <tswett> The best output value is C.
18:38:06 <tswett> Low impedance grounded capacitor.
18:38:44 <ais523_> wait what? how do you use that from the input side?
18:38:50 <ais523_> also, high or low capacitance?
18:39:45 <tswett> It just stays at whatever voltage level it was most recently driven to.
18:40:40 <tswett> I wonder if you could test for Z by sending a tiny pulse in and seeing if it gets reflected or not.
18:41:26 <ais523_> that's the only module I ever failed in my EE degree (although I still got a first for the degree overall, my other marks were high enough to compensate for the huge penalty a failure gives)
18:42:23 <tswett> Come to think of it, computer audio inputs seem to be pretty good at figuring out the impedance.
18:42:36 <tswett> A cable that's unplugged gives way more noise than a cable that's plugged into something.
18:42:54 <tswett> I mean, it'd be kind of amazing if you could actually take the noise level and calculate the capacitance.
18:47:35 <fizzie> Panadol is the dominant Paracetamol container in Finland, I believe.
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18:56:14 <tswett> So we could say an analog signal is a sum of Gaussian functions that has finite energy in any time and frequency window. Or something.
18:58:22 <tswett> Say that it's a sum of Gaussian functions such that, if you multiply it by a Gaussian and convolute it with a Gaussian, then the result has a finite amount of total energy.
18:59:29 <tswett> 'Cept that you'll also want to allow the product of a Gaussian with a function of the form e^(a i t) for real a. 'Cause taking the Fourier transform of a shifted Gaussian gives you a Gaussian multiplied by one of those.
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19:13:34 <tswett> I wonder if you could define white noise functions like that.
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22:40:43 <Sgeo> Interesting thing about Go: They seem to want to make using undefined behavior obviously not work
22:40:47 <Sgeo> "Iterations over small maps no longer happen in a consistent order. Go 1 defines that “The iteration order over maps is not specified and is not guaranteed to be the same from one iteration to the next.” To keep code from depending on map iteration order, Go 1.0 started each map iteration at a random index in the map. A new map implementation introduced in Go 1.1 neglected to randomize iteration for maps with eight or fewer entries,
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22:40:49 <Sgeo> although the iteration order can still vary from system to system. This has allowed people to write Go 1.1 and Go 1.2 programs that depend on small map iteration order and therefore only work reliably on certain systems. Go 1.3 reintroduces random iteration for small maps in order to flush out these bugs."
22:41:27 <_46bit> I honestly sort of like it.
22:41:50 <Bicyclidine> i've seen methods of "discouraging" using UB before, but reliance on prng state is new to me
22:42:04 <_46bit> It sounds like code might need testing N times to rule out use of undefined behaviour though
22:43:12 <Bicyclidine> i like how they talk about using UB being a bug in something where there's obviously only one implementation
22:44:06 <Sgeo> I think there's technically two implementations + future implementations
22:44:14 <qlkzy> there are as many implementations as there are in-use versions of Go, surely
22:44:23 <Sgeo> As in, there's a compatibility 'guarantee' for Go 1.x
22:44:49 <Bicyclidine> Sgeo: i was thinking because they use "Go" to mean the language standard and an implementation interchangeably.
22:45:12 <Bicyclidine> you can make my message "[...] only one implementation that matters" if you like
22:46:01 <qlkzy> presumably, they're trying to avoid the problem e.g. Microsoft have always had with people building software that depends on the particular behaviour of the current version
22:46:08 <qlkzy> creating a backwards-compatability nightmare
22:46:50 <Bicyclidine> i wonder if they use the same prng state as the user, or have a completely separate one. i think i don't like either option!
22:47:24 <qlkzy> I think separate works better
22:49:05 * _46bit imagines how awful code he could write in Go if it depends upon the current state
22:50:12 <_46bit> A badly-named function that temporarily seeds the PRNG to a known value, followed by iteration-order-critical code, followed by setting the PRNG state back.
22:50:34 <_46bit> It sounds like an esoteric language could emerge out of that style.
22:50:53 <_46bit> A language with one construct where the behaviour depends upon the current PRNG state.
22:50:58 <_46bit> Wait. That has to already exist.
22:52:41 <Bicyclidine> "Map iteration previously started from a random bucket, but walked each bucket from the beginning. Now, iteration always starts from the first bucket and walks each bucket starting at a random offset. For performance, the random offset is selected at the start of iteration and reused for each bucket."
22:52:53 <qlkzy> well, the original implementation was separate: https://code.google.com/p/go/source/detail?r=02c15930f43c
22:53:14 <elliott> here's a fun thing you could do:
22:53:20 <elliott> iterate through a map to get some entropy for your own purposes
22:53:31 <elliott> RNG without anything beyond built-in iteration constructs!
22:53:57 <Bicyclidine> let's see, i think the new one is doing runtime·fastrand1()
22:54:19 <qlkzy> elliott: there's a post on one of the forums that says "we want it to be random, but not too random, so people don't use it as a source of entropy"
22:54:31 <elliott> qlkzy: well, that's no obstacle
22:54:35 <elliott> you just have to wring the entropy out slowly
22:54:46 <Bicyclidine> qlkzy: how can you tell it's separate? (i don't know runtime or anything)
22:56:09 <qlkzy> Bicyclidine, I'm not overly familiar with go, but afaict user prngs would be some way up from "runtime.fastrand1()"
22:56:54 <qlkzy> because each user prng is a configurable object with a source, rather than a static C function
22:56:55 <Bicyclidine> i think i will check the sources, now i'm curious. you might be able to make an exploit out of this in some ridiculous way
22:57:19 <oerjan> clearly the go implementers need to take a look at malbolge unshackled.
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22:57:45 <oerjan> (anyone else is also welcome, especially if they're willing to program in it)
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22:57:58 <qlkzy> it is 'low-quality' randomness, so perhaps exploitable if an application depends on the iteration order in some way
22:58:19 <Bicyclidine> fastrand1 looks like an LCG with some global called "m"
22:58:57 <elliott> how feasible is it to create a language where writing a program in it that does what you want is Hard (e.g., on the order of breaking crypto), but you can write a public spec/implementation without jeopardising that?
22:59:27 <Bicyclidine> the comment says some ARM compilers actually notice the register declaration or something
22:59:36 <elliott> like, "decrypt the program with a private key only the language author knows" works if you expose the interpreter via the internet, but you can't make a public spec out of it
22:59:41 <Bicyclidine> or... they have their own compiler, or something.
22:59:47 <elliott> I guess this could tie into homomorphic encryption type things?
23:00:12 <elliott> Bicyclidine: Go uses its own C compiler I think?
23:00:24 <elliott> since it's built on top of a port of the plan 9 compiler toolchain
23:01:17 <Bicyclidine> yeah, looks like the user exposed generators are separate, and in fact implemented in go
23:01:27 <qlkzy> surely Go takes advantage of the massive optimization work in existing compilers?
23:01:43 <elliott> the Plan 9 compilers are existing.
23:01:46 <Bicyclidine> http://golang.org/src/pkg/runtime/runtime.h#L290 still, lookit all that state
23:02:04 <elliott> they date back to the 90s, I think
23:02:08 <qlkzy> fine, "massive optimization work in popular compilers"
23:02:21 <elliott> well... Go is a programming language
23:02:28 <elliott> they're already in the job of writing an optimising compiler
23:02:47 <Bicyclidine> and they obviously sort of care about performance if they're telling the compiler what should be a register.
23:03:24 <elliott> I mean the C compiler will only affect the speed of the Go compiler.
23:03:32 <elliott> the speed of Go programs will depend on the Go compiler.
23:04:16 <elliott> anyway the plan 9 c compilers and the go compiler are written by the same-ish people, so.
23:04:19 <oerjan> hm actually if they wanted to avoid both entropy use and dependence on order they should just choose the order randomly at startup, but fixed for each program run. (that's one of the options malbolge unshackled chooses between iirc.)
23:05:10 <Sgeo> There's another thing I like about the Go HTTP stack, that reminds me of some (not all) of the Haskell web frameworks: Routing layers themselves produce an HTTP application that can be nested in another routing layer, rather than a routing layer having to be at the top
23:12:48 <Bicyclidine> fastrand1 is seeded from cputicks(), but at least on arm linux cputicks() is actually nanotime() + a random number which is... pulled from the elf i think?
23:13:53 <Bicyclidine> "The address of sixteen bytes containing a random value." huh, that's kind of cool (from man getauxvalue)
23:15:12 <Bicyclidine> and you can view the whole aux vector with an environment value on literally any program, so presumably that's in ld.so? nifty, nifty
23:16:47 <elliott> literally any dnyamically linked program, then
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23:25:44 <Sgeo> I also think I like type switching, but really don't like the thought of that being an idiomatic way of doing things
23:26:00 <Sgeo> I like type switching as a last resort feature ala unsafeCoerce
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23:27:17 <elliott> note that type switching breaks parametricity.
23:27:34 <elliott> (hence, arguably, abstraction)
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23:33:14 <Sgeo> Pretty sure I like Rust's error handling more than Go's. As explicit as Go, but there's a (still explicit) shortcut in the common case of returning earl
23:33:32 <elliott> Go using tuples for sum types is horrific
23:34:35 <Sgeo> I don't think multiple return quite counts as tuples. Can't just store the multiple return in some variable. But still bad at simulating sum types in the same way as what you meant, probably
23:35:14 <elliott> yes, because an error must be (err, <garbage>)
23:35:48 <Sgeo> Go seem to assume that 'zero it out' is meaningful most of the time, except when it isn't
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01:08:09 <FossilCodger> Hi, somebody, there is anybody available? (Excuse me for the bad Englis...)
01:10:44 <FossilCodger> I joined to this IRC, just because I would like to announce, that I created a new programming language, named "mau".
01:11:55 <Bike> you should write an article for it on the wiki, probably. we get notices of wiki edits here.
01:12:01 <FossilCodger> The novatime newest, 15th release downloadable at this link: http://parancssor.info/mau/mau15release.tar.bz2
01:12:31 <oerjan> well we would, if HackEgo wasn't abducted by evil scientists
01:13:28 <FossilCodger> Okay, just my biggest problem that I have very low english knowledge! I understand enough good the written english documentation, but my knowledge sure not enough good to written articles..
01:14:11 <FossilCodger> And my language is not the English, but the Hungarian. The documentation of my "mau" interpreter language is more as 200 pages in odt format.
01:14:33 <Bike> you might be better off converting it to pdf or something
01:14:52 <Bike> but, you may as well make a page. then people can proofread it and such
01:14:58 <elliott> your english seems pretty good to me
01:15:27 <madbr> you should make a page on the esolang wiki -> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
01:15:36 <FossilCodger> This language very usable for serious, daily scripting work, I use it daily, under 64 bits Linux operating system, but in the above download link available the source code, and can compile it for 32 bits systems too.
01:15:50 <oerjan> we just need to gently persuade b_jonas to translate it, should be easy -----###
01:16:27 <Bike> so what's esoteric about it
01:16:38 <elliott> wow, these example programs are pretty great.
01:17:11 <elliott> is … actually part of the syntax? :D
01:18:27 <Bike> ah yes. seeing the esotericism
01:18:59 <FossilCodger> Hi, friends, the parancssor.info is my own domain. The hungarian word "parancssor" mean in English: "commandline".
01:19:32 <FossilCodger> In this subforum: http://parancssor.info/forum/index.php?board=20.0 is more topic with USABLE, usefull mau programs!
01:21:07 <FossilCodger> And in the downloadable package you can find more example programs, for ekzample the "vidir" programs in mau language!
01:21:33 <FossilCodger> The original vidir written in Perl, but I created it in mau too.
01:23:01 <FossilCodger> An example for a cycle in mau: {| 26 ?c #s@s[[{|}]][#c@k]; /; |}
01:25:03 <FossilCodger> The above example is a cycle, which run 26 times, and print a character in every first string from the @s stringarray. It print from every string the character which has the index in the @k unsigned char variable.
01:27:41 <FossilCodger> here are an example program whit english comments, excuse me for the bad grammar:
01:27:43 <FossilCodger> !mau // maudir program. // Author: Viola Zoltán, violazoli@gmail.com // This program created in the programming language named "mau". That programming language created by I, Viola Zoltán, too. // Licence GPL, boot. // Constans: #s@P="/tmp"; // Path for the temporary file for the editing with the text editor in the $EDITOR environment variable #c@c='-; // character for the empty spaces of pidstring #c@p=6; // max length of th
01:31:16 <FossilCodger> Okay, now I created to my forum an english section, and now already available in them the first mau example program - the vidir in mau language - with english comments! The link to this subforum: http://parancssor.info/forum/index.php?topic=121.0
01:31:39 <madbr> do you have a page describing the language in english?
01:33:32 <FossilCodger> @madbr: sorry, not, because I not have enough good english! As I wrote above, I created now a subforum, and in that now available a long example, but I cannot translate the full >200 page documentation...
01:36:22 <madbr> right, 200 pages is kinda long
01:36:38 <madbr> but it might be cool to have just some kind of broad intro
01:37:24 <FossilCodger> If would be lot of peoples having interest to the mau language, of course I try translate the cheaf parts of the syntax, usability, other needed knowledge, but it will very bad in the English grammar, therefore I need somebody to correct my bad english text!
01:39:29 <madbr> it should be good practice for getting better at that :D
01:39:45 <FossilCodger> This language support all types of the C, - signed/unsigned char/int/longint, float, double, long double, string, and other string designed for UTF-8 encoded characters, arrays...
01:40:53 <madbr> what's its design goal?
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01:41:16 <FossilCodger> It has lot of variants for cycles, switch, it can handle bitfields...
01:41:32 <FossilCodger> The slogan: "The programming language with efficient line noise"
01:42:40 <FossilCodger> Just in the mau it is not named "for", but {| or {( or other symbol variants.
01:43:14 <FossilCodger> Oh, yes, eh, English... Yes, LOOPS, f*ck my crazy mind...
01:45:59 <madbr> is it a bit like APL?
01:46:55 <FossilCodger> If somebody ready to correct my bad Enlglish, I translate the documentation. In this case, send me email to this: violazoli at gmail point com.
01:48:04 <FossilCodger> My goal, that I have my own programming language, because I have like and interest to creating it, and that this language is a strictly type language.
01:48:05 <madbr> apl is famous for using a bunch of rare hard to type characters, and having lots of special operators (for doing operations on arrays)
01:48:38 <FossilCodger> In every function strictly, which variable type usable.
01:49:09 <FossilCodger> Not as in the Bash or other common scripting language. My casting operator is the "#".
01:51:12 <madbr> so it's easy to do very compact programs in apl because the operators will do whole loops for you
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01:55:56 <madbr> do you have structs or objects?
01:57:09 <FossilCodger> Not yet, but planning. I will enlarge my language to OOP. But not now, because first I create my own regexp implementation. This will usefull and necessary to the objectorientad parts...
01:57:40 <FossilCodger> But mau has function, and every function has own namespace.
01:58:12 <madbr> it has functions? but can you store a whole function inside a variable?
01:59:06 <FossilCodger> And the mau has built-in "variables" for the directory structure, and inputfiles, outputfiles, stacks...
01:59:35 <madbr> does it have arrays?
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02:00:34 <FossilCodger> excuse me I dont understand your question. Of course, variables can handle only datas. But in a #l type variable you can put a label of a function!
02:00:56 <FossilCodger> In the mau, almost every things can to be indirect.
02:02:23 <FossilCodger> For example, you has a subrutine labeled with §in. Now, yo type: #g@c=§in; And later: »#g@c; this is a jump to the label which are in the #g@c variable. Indirect jumping.
02:02:59 <elliott> madbr means "array" as in "int x[5] = ..." in C
02:03:15 <FossilCodger> Yes, arrays available in the mau. All single type has its arrays too. For ekzample:
02:03:32 <FossilCodger> #c@c - this is a single variable, unsigned char.
02:04:01 <FossilCodger> #c@c[index] - this is an array of unsigned chars.
02:04:29 <FossilCodger> #s@s="This is a single string variable constans";
02:04:31 <madbr> and can you change the size of arrays once they are created?
02:05:13 <FossilCodger> #s@s[[arrayindex]][stringindex] - this is a character of a string from a stringarray.
02:07:12 <FossilCodger> After creation of the stringarray, the size not changeable yet, but if the mau community would like this possibility, I built it, no problem... :)
02:07:36 <FossilCodger> But the strings automatically grow up if necessary. For ekzample:
02:09:22 <FossilCodger> #s@a="string"; This string is from 6 characters. Now you do: #s@a[8]=g; You now probed giving the "g" character to the 8th place of the string. This place momently no exist, but this is no problem, the string grow up to the 8th characters.
02:09:36 <Bike> What fills the void?
02:11:17 <madbr> "but can you store a whole function inside a variable?" -> some languages let you do that
02:11:30 <madbr> you can more or less create whole new functions real time
02:11:57 <FossilCodger> In the mau available 2 string types. The "common" has the #s casting operator. In the above case, the void places imply random memory trash. But the second string type, whith the #U casting operator - this is designed for the UTF-8 encoded characters - strictly fill up the void places with spaces.
02:14:39 <FossilCodger> I already use the mau daily, because I use my LFS-based Linux with the DWM window manager, and I wrote/created my statusbar program in the mau. And the menu program for the DWM, exist in mau too. And my gmail watcher program is written in mau, too. And my english-hungarian dictionary too...
02:15:41 <FossilCodger> And my own colored listener program in place of the "ls", written in mau, too. And the "vidir" clone in mau, too.
02:18:52 <FossilCodger> And the mau has built-in QuickSort routine/function.
02:20:14 <FossilCodger> The mau also PLUGINABLE! The (sorry, hungarian language...) documentation has fully knowledgebase chapter about, how can you write plugins to the mau interpreter in C/C++ language!
02:21:02 <madbr> probably the only esoteric language to have that, ever :D
02:21:09 <FossilCodger> With this methode, you can see the mau as only a skeleton to a fully-featured interpreter language, and to them you can create your OWN programming language!
02:21:56 <FossilCodger> Of course, all/every built-in mau command/function REWRITABLE, you can redefine its token with your plugins!
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02:24:05 <FossilCodger> Excuse me, I hope that I am no a smart alec too, but I think, that in the esoteric-group of the existing programming language, the mau is the GOD, because this is a VERY USABLE language!
02:24:36 <madbr> esoteric languages are rarely designed for usability
02:25:58 <Bike> yes, the brainfuck's design goal was as small a compiler as possible.
02:26:03 <FossilCodger> Otherwise I tell you, that the mau has built-in brainfuck-interpreter too...
02:26:42 <madbr> many are designed for pure mindfuck power, to expand your mind on what can be a computer language
02:27:02 <FossilCodger> Brainfuck is interest, yes. But Not usable for the daily work. I like it, but not usable for a fast scripting work. The mau yes.
02:27:29 <madbr> my favorite in this "mind expanding" category is unlambda: http://esolangs.org/wiki/unlambda
02:28:57 <FossilCodger> Okay, but my goal was not the mind expanding. I am a novelist. And for my sci-fi stories needed a new programming language. I created it. And, I planned it that it should be an usable tool for my daily linux work too.
02:30:30 <FossilCodger> begin with $: hexadecimal, for ekzample #fc or $FCe2
02:30:50 <Sgeo> As long as 0 isn't used as the octal indicator I'm happy.
02:31:07 <madbr> yeah does anyone still use octal?
02:31:24 <Bike> yes. numbers starting with 0 being octal is obnoxious, is all.
02:31:53 <FossilCodger> abcd....xABCD...X: an unsigned character, the ASCII code of the character.
02:31:56 <madbr> yeah starting with 0 producing octal is like... automatic non-obvious bugs
02:32:04 <Bike> FossilCodger: not unicode?
02:32:48 <Bike> you said "ASCII code".
02:34:05 <FossilCodger> #c@c=a; - in this case you give the ASCII code of "a" to the unsigned char variable named @c.
02:35:25 <FossilCodger> #u@a="ω"; - in this case you give to the UTF-8 character variable named @a, the byte sequences of the UTF-8 encoded multibyte character ω.
02:36:23 <Sgeo> Why was I able to copy/paste an image?
02:36:31 <Sgeo> Since when does img's alt do that?
02:37:02 <Bike> that is a square
02:37:05 <Bike> well, rectangle
02:37:10 <FossilCodger> I cannot give to you answer, I am newbie in the IRC.
02:38:23 <FossilCodger> As you can see, the function names can has any UTF-8 encoded characters.
02:38:34 <Sgeo> Bike: that is a vulcan hand salute
02:38:47 <Bike> vulcans have weird hands.
02:40:02 <FossilCodger> Function names should give between the „ and ” symbols.
02:40:15 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/28czh2/announcing_unicode_70/
02:40:33 <FossilCodger> For ekzample, a function named with the Sarasvati hindu godness, mahadevi:
02:41:33 <FossilCodger> Or, a function, named (dedicated) the Loved One singerin, the hebrew Ofra Haza:
02:41:56 <Sgeo> U+F809324230B034C43DA9123880EE8034588A8340994858CFD841351: BEAR JUGGLING SIX DIFFERENTLY-SIZED MELONS WHILE WEARING BEANIE WITH LOPSIDED PROPELLER
02:44:00 <Sgeo> Ok Chrome, you obviously have a font that supports PILE OF POO because that's exactly what I see in my address bar right now
02:44:35 <FossilCodger> Levitating man... superfluous. The Unicode implement all useless shit.
02:47:24 <FossilCodger> First I think that in the mau the UTF-8 strings encoding all characters only with 4 bytes. But in the end, I planned it to 6 bytes, the originally plan of the UTF-8, because I think, the Unicode committee is untrustly, the 4 bytes will not enough lot, because I see the all superfluous trash will implemented to the unicode.
02:48:31 <Bike> i thought the point of utf-8 was not fixing a length.
02:49:13 <coppro> < FossilCodger> First I think that in the mau the UTF-8 strings encoding all characters only with 4 bytes. But in the end, I planned it to 6 bytes, the originally plan of the UTF-8, because I think, the Unicode
02:49:28 <coppro> `addquote <FossilCodger> First I think that in the mau the UTF-8 strings encoding all characters only with 4 bytes. But in the end, I planned it to 6 bytes, the originally plan of the UTF-8, because I think, the Unicode committee is untrustly, the 4 bytes will not enough lot, because I see the all superfluous trash will implemented to the unicode.
02:49:50 <FossilCodger> UTF-8 is novatimes max 4 bytes, but in the first time it was 6 bytes planned.
02:50:24 <FossilCodger> The UTF-8 structure can expandable to maximum 8 bytes, as I know.
02:50:54 <elliott> I think "novatimes" should be adopted as an actual english word.
02:51:17 <Bike> what's it mean, i can't tell
02:51:25 <madbr> sounds like a medicine brand
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02:54:32 <FossilCodger> The mau can special variables for the benchmarks, too.
02:54:50 <coppro> where did we find this guy?
02:55:02 <Bike> they came in a few hours ago to talk about t heir esolang.
02:55:18 <madbr> just logged on and started talking yes
02:56:19 <FossilCodger> Just I have lot of difficulity in the English, I am sorry & excuse me.
02:58:41 <FossilCodger> And the mau has the "test" function of the bash, too.
02:59:41 <FossilCodger> For ekzample, you can open a file in the memory (RAM), you write to them the records, and if finish, you handle the memory area as a string...
03:01:06 <FossilCodger> This mau command: ||| #s@a t; cut the @a string to parts into the string-array named "t".
03:04:53 <FossilCodger> Hi, guys, has the esolangs community an own forum?
03:06:03 <FossilCodger> Because if not, I welcome open in my forum a part for the eso languages. This domain paid for the next 5 years already...
03:07:17 <elliott> it used to have a forum. now we just use the wiki
03:09:29 <FossilCodger> Okay Elliot, then, if you think that this is a good idea, write to the wiki please, that the official forum of the esolangs is in the parancssor.info/forum/... - to the "..." I write the name what you would like, and open that subforum now!
03:13:21 <Sgeo> The heck...? http://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/28ffsc/world_cup_json_rails_backend_for_a_scraper_that/
03:13:28 <Sgeo> Why was that posted to /r/Python
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03:30:24 <Sgeo> Apparently Go uses global variables a bunch by default
03:30:31 <Sgeo> And was just told 'you don't have to use them'
03:37:01 <Sgeo> (And possibly most don't use the default global variables, but it's still concerning)
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03:56:46 <madbr> what's the cool thing to put in a fungeroid
03:57:35 <madbr> It's going to be hard to have a "write to program/read from program at X/Y" instruction tho
03:58:18 <madbr> unless it takes a line number for Y and a string for X
03:58:52 <zzo38> Do you know how 16-bit samples are stored in a .XM music?
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04:03:04 <madbr> I haven't read the specs for XM
04:03:33 <madbr> for s3m and IT there's a table of pointers to sample headers in the file header
04:04:17 <madbr> I can't remember what IT does from there but for s3m this header contains a pointer to the sample data
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04:06:13 <madbr> can't remember if the sample data was unsigned or signed but I think it's the reverse from the usual
04:06:36 <madbr> (and might be different between 8 and 16 bits)
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04:15:51 <zzo38> The specs for XM do have a few things missing actually but I have been able to fill in those missing things. Someone else already made a version with many mistakes corrected, but still has a few mistakes. I know where samples are stored, but not the format of 16-bit samples.
04:16:05 <zzo38> 8-bit samples in XM are encoded as delta values.
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04:33:01 <zzo38> I am trying to extend AmigaMML with such feature.
04:35:09 <zzo38> I also want to add a percussion synthesizer; do you have advice how to do such a things?
04:36:23 <madbr> depends how realistic you want it to be
04:36:59 <madbr> and what hardware you're targetting
04:38:06 <madbr> drums are essentially a large impulse + some noise going through a whole bunch of bandpass filters (like 40 bandpass filters in parallel)
04:38:18 <zzo38> I don't really care much to be realistic but want it good quality nevertheless.
04:39:09 <madbr> kick can be done with essentially a wave going down in pitch fast
04:40:13 <madbr> hihat is a mess of high frequencies... on an FM synth you can do them by setting osc frequencies super high and playing some ridiculously high note and letting it create some frequency mess due to aliasing... but this doesn't work on non-fm synths
04:40:26 <madbr> failing that, just some noise isn't bad
04:41:24 <madbr> snare is kinda touchy, it needs some lower frequency thump (essentially low frequency noice) BEFORE the high frequency SHHH from the snares
04:42:02 <madbr> they cannot happen at the same time, it's thump THEN the Shhhh part
04:42:35 <madbr> on C64 they do this by using one channel and alternating it between a wave (usually square) and noise
04:42:48 <madbr> so it's kindof a tone sequencer
04:42:52 <zzo38> OK, although FM synthesis is actually also one of the synthesizers I intend to add. The two I have already implemented are simple waveforms (a sum of square waves (adjustable duty), saw, and triangle), and PADsynth (full the amplitude table with a sum of bell curves, the phase table with random values, and then perform an inverse Fourier transform), and the two I plan to add are FM synth and percussion synth.
04:43:31 <zzo38> It can already load external samples, but I also want to allow the .MML text file to be able to stand alone.
04:43:34 <madbr> this page has some more ideas: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Feb02/articles/synthsecrets0202.asp
04:44:21 <madbr> essentially every drum is its own special snowflake
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04:51:30 <Bike> can't hear their shapes
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06:06:48 <Sgeo> I wonder if Go's defer has any advantages over Haskell solutions to similar problems
06:07:04 <Sgeo> I guess it's more explicit that something will be closed, rather than being implied by the usage
06:11:41 <zzo38> I have once used the (just) overtone scale in writing music.
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07:19:26 <Sgeo_> And in today's issue of things that would not be necessary if Go had generics: https://github.com/justinas/alice
07:28:26 <Sgeo_> It petty much is, except iiuc you can't really write a typesafe (.)
07:29:44 <elliott> "Matt Silverlock's use.go snippet came closest to what I wanted. My only complaint is that the ordering of handlers here is counter-intuitive. Reading the chaining code makes it obvious that
07:29:47 <elliott> use(myApp, csrf, logging, recovery)
07:29:50 <elliott> is equivalent to this code:
07:29:53 <elliott> recovery(logging(csrf(myApp)))
07:29:58 <elliott> recovery -> logging -> csrf -> myApp
07:30:00 <elliott> So, a reversed order from what you've written in your code."
07:30:03 <elliott> haha, the opposite complaint people make about (.)
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10:12:26 <Taneb> Help I am being attacked by imposter syndrome
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10:18:41 <mroman> Did you mean: Help, I have imposter syndrome.
10:18:48 <mroman> If so, please press 1.
10:18:51 <mroman> If not, please press 2.
10:19:18 <mroman> To ask for information about how much this call costs, press 3.
10:19:24 <mroman> To donate 1 Mio. dollar press 4.
10:19:45 <zzo38> To donate using what account?
10:20:18 <Taneb> Got 90% on a programming theory exam and I don't feel like I deserve it when one of my friends failed it
10:20:26 <mroman> It will be charged to your IRC bill
10:20:39 <Taneb> Hang on, he didn't fail it
10:20:46 <Taneb> Well, that makes me feel better :)
10:21:10 <zzo38> Why should you don't feel like you deserve it if one of your friends failed it?
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10:21:58 <Taneb> zzo38, because I think he's a better programmer than I am
10:22:17 <mroman> Maybe you're mistaken about his skills then.
10:22:53 <mroman> Taneb: Did you cheat on the test?
10:23:10 <zzo38> Taneb: O, OK. Well, but it might not necessarily have to do with the exam.
10:23:32 <mroman> I think people who cheat on tests don't deserve to pass them.
10:24:05 <Taneb> mroman, I did not cheat on the test
10:24:27 <Taneb> If I had I would have got more than 90%, or I would have thought 90% was high enough to be suspicious and got less than 90%
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10:25:10 <mroman> You'd care about your mark being suspicious if you cheat to good?
10:25:34 <mroman> Even if it's susicious. If they can't prove it, they can't get you ;P
10:26:24 <Taneb> Well, if it's not suspicious they won't look so hard
10:26:41 <mroman> What would they look at?
10:26:45 <mroman> You already wrote the test?
10:27:18 <Taneb> I am not clever enough to cheat
10:27:19 <mroman> They can't do anything once you've left the exam room I think
10:27:37 <mroman> I guess I'd be clever enough
10:27:46 <mroman> but it'd be a nervous wreck the whole exam
10:27:58 <mroman> My body would literally be shaking if I were to cheat
10:28:54 <zzo38> I have only twice tried to cheat on a test. In one case it was on paper, and I tried to use a "coughing code" to tell everyone else in the room, the answers. Since I have not told anyone about this ahead of time, I don't think anyone knew (and the teacher ask if I needed some water to drink). The other is on computer; once I reached the final question I tried to cheat off of the person next to me, who as it turned out was trying to cheat off of me
10:29:39 <Taneb> You seem to have pretty poor luck at cheating
10:30:18 <mroman> I'm too scared to cheat :(
10:30:44 <zzo38> In the first case I described, I didn't really do it to cheat, but because I wanted to figure out if it is possible and what the reactions are!
10:38:12 <KingOfKarlsruhe> i never did my homework, so i said "x equals 5", it was in 90% of all cases acceptable by my math teacher
10:48:51 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.xkcd.com/759/
10:49:11 <b_jonas> whose title text is "Handy exam trick: when you know the answer but not the correct derivation, derive blindly forward from the givens and backward from the answer, and join the chains once the equations start looking similar. Sometimes the graders don't notice the seam."
10:50:37 <zzo38> Especially on multiple-choice tests I did sometimes work backward from the answer.
10:55:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/602-Test-Time.html
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11:04:02 <mroman> Phantom_Hoover: I'm kinda counting on that :)
11:04:18 <mroman> although our math lecturer does a better job than that
11:04:51 <mroman> but he said I made an assumption that just coincidentally lead me to the correct result
11:04:51 <mroman> and thus, it's wrong :)
11:06:49 <zzo38> Yes I have done this kind of "short-circuit" test
11:09:56 <zzo38> Stuff written on that article is good
11:10:49 <mroman> How can an exam be racially biased o_O
11:10:58 <mroman> Did they ask questions only white people can answer
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11:14:48 <mroman> I thought everybody does that too anyway
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11:15:53 <mroman> There are even questions where you can say "Well, I don't know the exact answer, but I know it can't be B,C,D so the only option left is A anyway)
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11:17:26 <Taneb> mroman, my multiple choice exams have all had E) None of the above :(
11:18:39 <mroman> If I were a teacher I'd do that too
11:19:07 <Taneb> And like 3 questions were E!
11:19:34 <mroman> and punish mistakes ;)
11:19:57 <mroman> which makes multiple choice questions actually harder
11:20:02 <mroman> although everybode seems to think they are easier
11:20:12 <mroman> not only don't you get the point for the question
11:20:28 <mroman> so not knowing an answer correctly costs you two points instead of just one
11:21:17 <mroman> I'd rather it's not a multiple choice question and just loose a single point for not knowing it correctly
11:21:28 <b_jonas> sometimes dereferencing syntax in C++ or perl reminds me to the intercal rabbit ear syntax
11:22:32 <mroman> Taneb: A funny variation is actually
11:22:37 <mroman> "How many options are correct?"
11:23:19 <mroman> Instead of marking the correct options you just have to write how many of them are correct
11:23:55 <int-e> A) 1 B) 2 C) 3 or less D) all of the above
11:39:16 <int-e> to be more precise, I meant: A) exactly 1, B) exactly 2, C) 3 or less, D) all of the above
11:41:17 <int-e> and the question is "how many options are correct?"
11:41:34 <int-e> and the desired outcome is that there is no consistent set of answers.
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12:17:00 <zzo38> Is this much good so far? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Gentzen#Typeclass_definition_syntax
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13:18:50 <oerjan> <zzo38> [...] Since I have not told anyone about this ahead of time, I don't think anyone knew [...] <-- i'm going to guess that anyone intelligent enough to guess you were doing a code and figuring it out didn't need your help anyway.
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14:59:18 <impomatic> There doesn't appear to be a JavaScript Unix password cracker anywhere :-(
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15:01:50 <impomatic> gcry:BbDSwh.NQHGj6:1004:102:Cray Analyst:/u/gcry:/bin/sh
15:12:49 <FreeFull> You need speed for password cracking
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15:18:29 <ion> But JavaScript has 2× the performance of native applications. http://fratti.ch/2webscale4u/
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15:30:24 <impomatic> `crack cray:1zd8eAacKa9J6:101:17:Cray:/usr/cray:
15:31:54 <ion> EgoBot should have a person of Caucasian descent
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16:19:01 <mroman> I don't accept the premisse that anything that is interpreted can possibly run faster than native code
16:19:18 <mroman> I also don't acept the premisse that anything executed on a vm can possibly run faster than native code
16:20:07 <mroman> does 2x the speed mean
16:20:19 <mroman> if native takes 2s then it takes 4s?
16:21:32 <Taneb> mroman, an amazing interpreter can beat native code generated by a crap compiler
16:21:53 <mroman> but nobody said anything about that
16:21:59 <mroman> it runs twice as fast as native code
16:22:11 <Taneb> What was that said about?
16:22:52 <mroman> being faster than native code means for me, that you are faster than the CPU can execute code
16:25:12 <mroman> Just look at that webscalability
16:26:30 <mroman> that webpage has apparentely been seized by some federal agency of some country .
16:34:00 <impomatic> Argh, css shadows on body text :-(
16:52:22 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/ngbl/
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17:44:20 <mroman> i should probably replace : with IS
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18:01:33 <mroman> Now with EXISTS, IS and ASSIGNED_TO
18:01:55 <impomatic> Some of these passwords are cracking really easily. service -> smile : shutdown -> bedtime and a few user passwords like mary, tricia, etc.
18:03:35 <impomatic> Poor passwords, considering the password file is from a Ministry of Defence machine :-) They should know better.
18:06:44 <mroman> I hope that's not your job and your bragging about it on the IRC
18:07:32 <mroman> what's plaudern in english
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18:10:27 <int-e> There's no "bragging" connotation that I'm aware of.
18:10:59 <mroman> I know that bragging is the wrong word
18:11:01 <int-e> I should stop replying to the last thing said without reading context.
18:11:16 <mroman> I tend to do that a lot too :D
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18:15:34 <impomatic> mroman: no, don't work for the MoD. Bought an ex-MOD computer which hasn't been wiped and trying to find the root password so I can use it properly.
18:17:38 <mroman> Yes, I'd like to have root access to your long range missiles.
18:19:00 <mroman> either that or a little house in some neat state .
18:21:22 <impomatic> Bought about a dozen ex MoD computers a few years ago. I've only just got this one back. (It's too big, so I had to put it in storage for a while until I got the garage converted into an office)
18:21:48 <mroman> they are pretty old I assume?
18:22:04 <Bicyclidine> i'm just surprised they don't wipe everything as a matter of policy
18:22:26 <mroman> even little companies do that
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18:23:21 <elliott> you're assuming the military is more competent than the average company
18:23:46 <mroman> that's what a normal non-us-citizen like me would think
18:24:06 <elliott> did you know that america is the only country in the world where things are bad
18:24:14 <mroman> although I suspect it's not much more secure here ;)
18:24:32 <Bicyclidine> elliott: i was just asking cos i'd give the example of http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/jun/17/usa.oliverburkeman1
18:24:33 <mroman> elliott: I've heard something like that
18:24:52 <elliott> did I just commit some kind of poe's law of smoke europeanism
18:25:07 <elliott> I don't know how I got "smoke" out of that.
18:25:21 <fcrawl> smoke europeanism everyday
18:25:22 <Bicyclidine> anyway, i would have expected the military to do something else if they don't follow basic security, like for example, just explode them
18:25:34 <Bicyclidine> or dump them in the ocean, a la http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CHASE
18:26:19 <elliott> US nuclear weapons found out to actually just be old fireworks in fancy containers
18:29:28 <Bicyclidine> i was explaining fission bombs yesterday and it was kind of awkward having to say that it basically boils down to hitting plutonium really hard
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18:49:40 <impomatic> mroman: they range from mid 80's to mid 90's. They range from a BBC Micro with some kind of 32-bit co-processor to an 8 processor Cray.
18:51:09 <impomatic> The place I bought them had an entire warehouse of various computers / minis / mainframes. I wish I could've bought more.
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19:52:36 <mroman> hopefully your cracking the passwords on the cray
19:54:15 <mroman> two days and I'm through with my final exams
19:57:16 <mroman> so far the "don't learn" strategy went well
19:59:35 <mroman> Because it's mostly boring bullshit
20:01:07 <mroman> About 900 CHF a semester
20:01:26 -!- mhi^ has joined.
20:01:48 <mroman> but you wouldn't really have a choice even it cost more ;)
20:02:27 <mroman> It's ridiculously specific stuff they'll ask
20:02:39 <mroman> like... what policy is needed to create a JAAS LoginContext
20:03:02 <fcrawl> i WISH i knew what my exam questions are going to be like
20:03:10 <olsner> mroman: a JAASLoginContextPolicy?
20:03:26 <mroman> I don't bother memorizing all those things
20:03:43 <mroman> I'm not going to learn the documentation of some Java Interface
20:03:48 <Bicyclidine> chemistry involves an annoying amount of memorization but at least it'll be most of the same memorization as fifty years ago.
20:03:54 <mroman> I hope that the lecturer included enough information about that interface in his slide
20:03:59 <mroman> (because I can bring the slides to the exam)
20:04:12 <mroman> And I'll just look-up stuff on the slides during the exam as I need to
20:04:33 <Bicyclidine> Also not under the control of some megacorp, much as Dow would like.
20:04:37 <mroman> If I have bad luck, he'll ask stuff he only mentioned in the lectures and did not document in the slides
20:05:52 <mroman> or something that was only mentioned in some exercises
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20:06:32 <mroman> I don't really see how it would make me a better computer scientist by memorizing all the stupid shit they teach
20:07:58 <olsner> sounds to me like your program might not be CS at all
20:08:51 <mroman> it is. but they bloat it up with lots of java specific stuff
20:09:12 <mroman> I'm just not interested in that
20:09:28 <MDude> But how will you be enterprise pro?
20:09:46 <mroman> Rather than memorizing the java compiler's command line options I'd like to learn something about type theory
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20:10:11 <mroman> what's the purpose of learning the java compiler's command line options
20:10:34 <elliott> uh, say you want to compile java
20:10:38 <olsner> you want to just learn abstract nonsense? but how will you ever *do* anything without knowing how to invoke javac?
20:10:56 <mroman> There's a freaking manual for it somewhere
20:11:13 <MDude> So when you go make Java with a bunch of bullies they won't bother you for checking the manual every once in a while.
20:11:43 <mroman> In the rare cases you actually alter the javac command line by much
20:12:04 <fcrawl> this sounds sorta, "why bother learning arithmetic if there's calculators"!!
20:12:39 <MDude> Are you trying to say that Java is a fundamental a concept as arithmatic?
20:12:48 <mroman> It's more like "why bother learning arithmetic if there's a book about that documents how that works"
20:13:06 <elliott> there are... there are lots of books about arithmetic, mroman
20:13:19 <mroman> but there's a difference imo.
20:13:35 <fcrawl> i should write a book about arithmetic
20:13:37 <elliott> but... but you just analogised it to that. like, yourself. you made that comparison
20:14:59 <mroman> I'm tired of memorizing the syntax of a programming language every semester and then have a final exam about where you have to find the 10 syntax errors he's hidden
20:15:03 <MDude> To me, learning the details of Java in a computer science course sounds like learning the details of a particular make of car in a physics class.
20:15:18 <MDude> That's just not what it's for.
20:15:37 <elliott> ok as much as we all want to be little dijkstras, do you really want CS classes that involve: no touching computers; writing programs
20:15:41 <mroman> I'm tired of memorizing what Exceptions some Java Function throws
20:15:50 <elliott> like, do you think CS graduates should not know how to implement algorithms
20:16:12 <mroman> elliott: They should know how to implement algorithms.
20:17:31 <mroman> elliott: There's a difference between teaching OOP through Java
20:17:56 <elliott> I'm not defending your curriculum, I just think your broader position is untenable
20:18:05 <mroman> and forcing your students to remember that notify() can throw a IllegalMonitorStateExecption
20:18:18 <mroman> the first one teaches concepts
20:18:46 <elliott> I don't think a CS curriculum should be theory divorced from practice as much as I don't think it should be practice divorced from theory.
20:18:47 <MDude> Not touching comptuers at all is one thing, but Java can be a bit far in the other extreme.
20:18:57 <mroman> the second one teaches where the nut A1241 is located in a Boing 717
20:19:32 <elliott> sure. I mean, I wouldn't pick Java. but it's probably not that bad a choice: it's incredibly popular, and has just enough abstraction to be able to actually implement things and not worry about memory safety. it's the least common denominator. it's certainly a shame, though
20:20:00 <mroman> It's not about the language choice actually
20:20:09 <mroman> It's more about what makes more sense teaching
20:20:28 <MDude> It's incredibly popular for reasons that have nothing to do with its sutability for CS classes.
20:20:46 <mroman> I'm not saying Java is a bad choice to teach
20:21:09 <coppro> elliott: can we somehow teach students not to crank out shitty papers for the sake of cranking out shitty papers?
20:21:14 <elliott> MDude: yes, but you know, grounding the lessons in what they have a good chance of using day-to-day afterwards isn't really that bad an idea.
20:21:29 <mroman> At that point, that you list three exceptions
20:21:39 <mroman> and ask your students which one of those are built-in in python
20:24:23 <b_jonas> mroman: how about the type of exam where I give a short program with one or two plausible errors (ones that I could make when writing the program) AND the compiler error messages (from a sane compiler with sane switches) which actually explain the errors, and the students have to understand what the compiler says and tell how to fix those one or two errors?
20:25:52 <mroman> there's no black/white I think
20:26:04 <b_jonas> sure, you need multiple types of questions on the exam
20:26:14 <olsner> reading error messages is a sorely lacking skill in my experience, they should teach that in school
20:26:33 <mroman> I'd say it's important to be able to understand compiler messages from a sane compiler
20:26:50 <b_jonas> of course this requires that you use a language that has a compiler that usually gives sane error messages
20:27:11 <mroman> I'm aware of my bias due to frustration ;)
20:27:28 <mroman> already being very nimble in lot of programming languages
20:27:57 <mroman> It drives you mad to memorize what exceptions are built-in to yet another language that happens to be taught at the university
20:28:57 <mroman> I happen to know a lot of details like that about other languages
20:29:09 <mroman> just not the one they decided to teach thoroughly at their university
20:30:16 <mroman> It's not entirely bad though
20:30:22 <mroman> You can list it on your CV
20:30:26 <mroman> that you are now fluent in Java too
20:30:37 <b_jonas> mroman: besides reading the error messages, one thing I tried to teach the students is how to debug a program by inserting printf statements to print intermediate results and check manually whether they look right
20:31:03 <mroman> It just isn't what I expected from my tsudy
20:31:28 <mroman> That's probably the most obvious thing to do ever
20:31:35 <mroman> It's even easier than handling gdb
20:32:04 <b_jonas> mroman: yes. I'm mentioning the highlights here, mind you, my courses very very lousy in general.
20:32:13 <mroman> "tried" kinda has the conotation that it didn't work out well? :D
20:32:48 <b_jonas> it's hard to tell how it worked out really
20:34:00 <b_jonas> those courses weigh my conscience a bit because I might have made those mathematicians hate programming for ever,
20:34:03 <mroman> It takes experience and exercises to debug well
20:34:26 <b_jonas> though luckily it was the course for second year students where I did really badly, and second-years are supposed to be more resistant to bad teachers hopefully
20:34:29 <mroman> I notice how some people are so convinced that the error must be somewhere around line X
20:34:37 <mroman> even without having actual evidence that it's there
20:34:44 <mroman> they just have a hunch or I don't know
20:35:01 <mroman> and they are so focused on that they don't actually check what's really going on
20:35:10 <b_jonas> one interesting episode is when I was called to find the error in a student's program, and I debugged it for like five minutes and couldn't find it,
20:35:19 <b_jonas> at which point I asked for help on irc,
20:35:31 <b_jonas> it turned out the error was a semicolon after the closing paren of a for statement
20:35:47 <b_jonas> I probably didn't notice that because that's a mistake I personally would not make
20:36:15 <b_jonas> but I should have noticed it from the symptoms, because I did trace the execution and did see that the loop body didn't run enough times for some reason
20:36:28 <mroman> (with a new line in between)
20:36:47 <mroman> but they obvious thing to do, when dooBar() isn't executed when you expect is
20:37:41 <mroman> that checks if you programmed the condition write
20:38:01 <mroman> and if it prints true but dooBar isn't executed
20:38:02 <b_jonas> I don't know if I'd have noticed it eventually. This was during a course so I was pressed for time and chose to ask a second pair of eyes for speedup, which was the right decision I think.
20:38:08 <mroman> it's most likely a damn semicolon somewhere :D
20:38:58 <b_jonas> in my own code, I'm more affraid of making the opposite mistake: adding an if condition, then getting distracted and forgetting to add a body, so it scopes the next statement which should always be executed
20:39:53 <b_jonas> for this reason I try to type a {} right after the closing paren of the condition unless I can type the first token of the body like immediately in the next second
20:40:09 <b_jonas> probably I should write {} _before_ I write the closing paren
20:42:05 <b_jonas> it's sort of like how you should never type 'rm *.o' in the shell left to right, for a mistake can turn it to 'rm *' -- you should either write it as '#rm *.o' then erase the '#', or write 'rm .o' then add the splat
20:42:34 <b_jonas> or better, type 'echo rm -v *.o', execute it, check the result, then remove the echo and re-run
20:46:27 <olsner> and keep the .o files in a separate directory
20:46:39 <b_jonas> olsner: and remove them with 'make clear'
20:46:49 <elliott> b_jonas: if you limit the work you can lose, then the low probability of the mistake weighted against the loss it'll incur is outweighed by the loss in productivity caused by being paranoid about everything you do
20:47:02 <b_jonas> and possibly try 'make -n clear' first, though make -n isn't a sure-fire way to do nothing
20:47:10 <olsner> hmm, "clear"? that makes sense but I have never seen that spelling afaik
20:47:19 <b_jonas> elliott: sure, I'm always paranoid
20:47:28 <b_jonas> olsner: 'make clean' sorry
20:47:43 <elliott> b_jonas: right. so you're losing more work than you would with being fast but with very good backups
20:47:59 <elliott> because you're missing out on all the potential work you could do by effectively having more time and worrying less about deleting things
20:49:59 <elliott> I guess this is just another form of "easier to ask forgiveness than permission"
20:51:23 <b_jonas> that's a strange interpretation of this latter statement
20:52:23 <elliott> forgiveness i.e. "oops, I made a mistake and deleted all my files, please undo"
20:52:44 <elliott> permission i.e. "please figure out whether I am competent enough to be deleting the right files" :)
20:53:03 <elliott> permission -- check then do; forgiveness -- do then potentially recover
20:55:12 <MDude> I'd think recovering a backup might take more time than typing a bit weird every once in a while for a specific command.
20:56:31 <MDude> I'd think, though, that if you use 'rm *.o' a lot and worry about mistakinly pressing enter early, you could just make a script that does nothing but run 'rm *.o'
20:56:41 <elliott> MDude: yeah, unfortunately our undo buttons aren't that great yet. this is a perennial UI problem. however, there are rather convenient things (btrfs snapshots, say) where it's really no big deal
20:56:51 <mroman> b_jonas: that's why python has indentation :)
20:56:53 <MDude> And give it a short name.
20:56:56 <mroman> fixes a lot of these problems :D
20:56:57 <elliott> or, for a rather common method of backing up code against rm *: git reset --hard
20:57:37 <elliott> mostly, I don't personally make that mistake anywhere near often enough to care much about the hardship of restoring afterwards...
20:57:52 <MDude> Obv. the solution is to switch to the fossil filesystem.
20:58:04 <elliott> yeah, that would be nice. have you seen NILFS?
21:00:30 <MDude> No, it's been a while since I went around looking at filesystems.
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22:19:01 <boily> how come it feels so humid outside, even if it's 24 over 14?
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22:21:00 <boily> I should go and enjoy the Norwegian summer one day...
22:22:27 <olsner> why would you want to do that?
22:23:04 <boily> because it seems fun?
22:24:26 <olsner> maybe it is, I've only been in norway in the winter that I can remember
22:25:20 <olsner> once we went there in summer and came back with weird flatbread, coins with holes in them and oddly shaped candy
22:26:30 <boily> you had me at coins with holes.
22:29:24 <olsner> oh well, time to sleep
22:30:41 <elliott> olsner: you can't remember going in summer but you did?
22:37:16 <oerjan> hm do we have coins with holes any more
22:37:48 <oerjan> duh two of them in fact
22:38:42 * oerjan isn't really up to date with the recent weird candy
22:39:13 <oerjan> as for flatbread, there are probably heaps of types
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22:49:26 <Sgeo> I can't stop thinking of Erlang/Elixir+OTP as encouraging global mutable state
22:49:32 <Sgeo> Processes seem like they're often registered with a static name
22:49:34 <shachaf> boily: it's masculine bed that makes no sense
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22:50:04 <Sgeo> Should I be thinking of (some) supervisors almost like factories? Call a function with the supervisor and the supervisor can create a child and return its PID? Is that a normal flow?
22:50:15 <Sgeo> I've been wondering how to make supervised children dynamically for so long
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22:50:56 <boily> shachaf: not my problem. our object genders are correctly and obviously assigned :P
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22:53:09 <Sgeo> Suppose I have a simple_one_for_one to do exactly this. Is that simple_one_for_one generally registered? (a.k.a global state)
22:54:55 <Sgeo> Is this the wrong place to ask Erlang questions?
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22:55:29 <Bike> do any of us even know erlang
22:56:16 <Sgeo> I think Vorpal?
22:56:59 <shachaf> but #esoteric is more of a stream of consciousness channel for Sgeo, i think
22:57:58 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo> Is this the wrong place to ask Erlang questions?
22:58:31 <Sgeo> People here answer questions about all sorts of non-esoteric languages, so I guess I kind of figured
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23:05:55 <brandonson> Sgeo: I always thought of globally registered supervisors/actors as a little odd, but often a necessary evil. Passing around a PID to everything seemed a bit like overkill.
23:06:30 <Sgeo> Practically every example I've seen uses them though
23:06:44 <Sgeo> What's the non-global registered way to do normal stuff?
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23:07:44 <brandonson> Sgeo: Passing around PIDs I think. I just hate the extra parameter cause without static typing I always mix the order of params up :P
23:08:37 <Sgeo> If I'm not dynamically registering children, how do I make a gen_server that there should in most circumstances be one of and have the supervisor supervise it?
23:08:53 <Sgeo> I'm just trying to understand how passing around PIDs interacts with the supervision tree
23:12:24 <brandonson> Sgeo: You'd generally have the supervisor create children when it's created and send you the PIDs if you need them, I think. Little sketchy on my knowledge here though, I'm more familiar with akka/scala actors.
23:12:52 <Sgeo> How do I get the top level supervisor of my application?
23:17:06 <brandonson> Sgeo: It's likely the original actor that you create, so you can pass it as a parameter to anything that needs it and then store it as state. I don't think many actors need it though, you're more likely to need the PIDs for supervisors/workers that perform whatever tasks an actor needs done.
23:18:28 <brandonson> Sgeo: The top level actor/supervisor is almost always/always always your error kernel that really should never fail, so you don't want too many things touching it.
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23:27:44 <impomatic> Is this gif adequate, or is there something I can improve? http://corewar.co.uk/32.gif
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23:29:32 <impomatic> It demonstrates an imp moving through memory (a single instruction program that copies itself one instruction ahead, then executes the new copy)
23:29:48 <Bike> and it seems reasonably smooth
23:33:15 <impomatic> brandonson, bike: thanks :-) I just look at it and think it could be done better, but I've no idea how!
23:33:35 <Bike> i hear polytone knows a thing or two about gifs
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00:03:05 <oerjan> gah i run out of moisturizing cream and the itching on my hands immediately drives me crazy
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00:40:57 <boily> back from the dentist. my mouth is now metalless!
00:43:35 <boily> it feels incredibly weird to suddenly not have a metal wire running behind one's teeth.
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00:50:48 <boily> and I had a new set of impressions made. next week I'll get a bite splint.
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00:55:02 <boily> . o O ( I wonder what's the MRSP of a jug of alginate )
00:58:02 <boily> heh. a quick search turns out that a pound of dental alginate runs for about 12 bucks.
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01:04:03 * oerjan is not sure any of those fit boily's sentence
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01:08:14 <metasepia> MrsP.com is a free children's entertainment website. It stars actress Kathy Kinney as Mrs. P, a redheaded Irishwoman who reads classic children's stories from her "Magic Library." The target audience for the website is kids between the ages of 3-12, and its goal is to "encourage a lifetime love of reading." It has no advertising and no subscription fees. The site is produced by Mrs P Enterprises, LLC and was created by Kinney, who played Mimi on The
01:08:29 <oerjan> clearly what you meant
01:08:32 <oerjan> now in agora: a bug that people exploit by voting, retracting their vote, then revoting in the opposite way.
01:09:04 <boily> and the exploit being?
01:11:00 <oerjan> there's a reward for having voted opposite of the outcome of a proposal
01:11:20 <oerjan> and a bug in the phrasing that was _supposed_ to exclude retractions.
01:15:53 <Sgeo> Maybe I should get back into Agora someday
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01:17:14 <Sgeo> oerjan: which proposal? I'm curious
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01:18:18 <Sgeo> And/or was the rule in question present June 3rd?
01:20:04 <oerjan> don't recall exactly when it was amended
01:20:31 <coppro> I'm atm writing a really good judgment
01:21:55 <Sgeo> It tricked me for a moment into thinking there wasn't a bug
01:23:11 <coppro> nobody noticed until my proposal to reenact the same text
01:26:00 <Sgeo> For some reason I was thinking I didn't touch Agora since 2008, but I got involved for a bit last year
01:28:02 <oerjan> was it during the anniversary celebration?
01:29:37 <Sgeo> Around that time but unrelated to it. Was trying an Ambassador scam
01:31:02 <Sgeo> Oh, apparently Agora XX was involved in a counterscam
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02:32:06 <Sgeo> Erlang/Tcl comparison time: Both Erlang and Tcl have mutable objects be not automatically GCed, while some immutable objects get GCed automatically
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02:35:07 <MDude> Wait, you can still go to ancient Greek gathering places?
02:36:06 <Sgeo> MDude's name is giving me flashbacks to that M person in B
02:36:21 <oerjan> MDude: http://agoranomic.org/
02:36:43 <MDude> People are already asking me if I'm a fat guy's sense of motivation.
02:37:19 <MDude> http://www.whompcomic.com/
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02:38:09 <pikhq> Sgeo: Strictly speaking, Tcl has *no* GC whatsoever.
02:38:35 <Sgeo> I thought strings were GCed?
02:38:53 <pikhq> Tcl's semantics are such that there can't be cyclic references, so for simplicity's sake it reference counts instead.
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02:56:10 <Sgeo> help im arguing with someone online, i don't want to be the asshole who argues with people online
02:57:29 <Bike> I t hink that you shouldn't do that, and are a bad person for doing it.
02:58:31 <Sgeo> Actually, my reluctance to argue with people who directly contradict me may be hurting me at my job
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03:23:06 <shachaf> copumpkin: it was _Liking What You See: A Documentary_ by Ted Chiang
03:23:23 <shachaf> I'm not sure whether the text is online.
03:23:29 <shachaf> http://www.ibooksonline.com/88/Text/liking.html exists but has terrible formatting.
03:24:27 <oerjan> it exists but you don't like what you see
03:24:49 <MDude> Sgeo: Are you arguing online with someone you work with at your job?
03:25:10 <Sgeo> Separate arguments, but technically both are online
03:25:11 <MDude> Or do you just need to pracice argue so you're a better arguer at work?
03:25:30 <Sgeo> The work one's through email, this other one's through Reddit
03:26:40 <shachaf> i asked because i thought you were ignoring my questions about it and i didn't want to be bugging you if you weren't interested
03:26:43 <shachaf> also this is a different channel
03:26:49 <copumpkin> oh, it wasn't intentional ignoring
03:26:54 <shachaf> https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://glacierpeak.sno.wednet.edu/teachers/bjuhl/docs/Soph%20English/Second%20Semester/Alienation,%20Tolerance,%20Cyrano/Related%20Poems,%20Articles,%20Short%20Stories,%20Etc/Liking%20What%20You%20See%20Portrait%20Version.doc might be slightly better, if more convoluted.
03:26:59 <copumpkin> I'm barely at my computer these days
03:27:10 <copumpkin> check up on it every so often, get into a chat or two and then go elsewhere
03:27:31 <shachaf> i think kmc recommended it too
03:27:36 <shachaf> he's not in this channel anymore, though
03:31:03 <oerjan> wait is he gone completely
03:33:27 <oerjan> oh well he's on freenode somewhere
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03:57:52 <shachaf> copumpkin: what have you been doing
03:58:47 <copumpkin> hrm, working a lot, traveling to visit gf (she matched, graduated, went to china, just moved, and I did much of that with her), hanging out with work colleagues, stuff like that
03:59:33 <copumpkin> residency match program for med students
03:59:57 <copumpkin> giant algorithm matching people to hospitals they'll spend the next few years in
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04:06:48 <MDude> Out of context that sounds like it might be way to decide how to beat people up very bad.
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05:37:58 <Bike> So, in a theorem prover thingie, what exactly is a "tactic"? I swear i've heard about such things.
05:42:38 <Bike> Could you elaborate.
05:45:27 <Bike> something a silly person like me could perhaps begin to understand.
05:46:46 <elliott> a program that tries to write a proof term for a certain subset of propositions
05:46:59 <newsham> http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/sf/current/toc.html provides a reasonable introduction
05:47:03 <elliott> usually in some ugly turing-complete language, no real hard guarantees
05:51:24 <Bike> i wonder if i should just try going through this damn thing, i have enough books already
05:51:45 <newsham> you start of with a statement of what you want a functions type to be, and you have some other functions which can do parts of the solution for that function, giving you a simpler type (goal) to work towards
05:51:59 <newsham> its like an interactive program solver.. you nudge it along and it does a lot of the grunt work
05:52:14 <newsham> you wont have to go very far in SF before you learn what a tactic is
05:52:31 <Bike> oh, this book.
05:52:32 <newsham> the sf/current/toc.html book
05:52:54 <Bike> well, i kind of don't want to read about booleans for the billionth time. especially since i'm probably never going to use coq. you know?
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05:55:25 <elliott> coq doesn't really involve all that many of those
05:55:35 <newsham> sf starts out with a few boolean examples
05:55:40 <newsham> dont worry, it goes quickly from there
05:55:46 <elliott> Bike: you may like chlipala's CPDT
05:55:52 <Bike> just glancing at the table of contents, with enumerated data types
05:55:58 <elliott> it has nicer proof style than SF
05:56:01 <elliott> http://adam.chlipala.net/cpdt/
05:56:48 <Bike> Can I just ask things here?
05:57:03 <elliott> sure, if you want. I'm too tired to answer questions though.
05:57:24 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Jun 19 06:57:23 2014
05:57:37 <Bike> well it's super basic. like, you said tactics are in some ugly imperative language, so presumably they're outside of the coq system, not written in coq?
05:57:57 <elliott> they're in a metalanguage as part of the coq system
05:58:04 <elliott> though they can also be written in ocaml, like the built-in ones are
06:01:54 <Bike> hm this "coq reference manual" which may or may not be what you just linked might be what i want
06:03:39 <Bike> sf has this as an example: "Theorem plus_O_n : ∀n : nat, 0 + n = n. Proof. intros n. reflexivity. Qed." the intros n and reflexivity are steps to do the proof? like we start with the 0 + n thing, intros n fires, that gets you something else (probably n = n), then reflexivity fires and reduces it to true?
06:04:30 <newsham> yah, "intros" and "reflexitivity" are tactics.
06:05:08 <elliott> Bike: I was joking when I called CPDT the Coq manual.
06:05:13 <elliott> it's more like the Coq manual they forgot to write.
06:05:18 <Bike> well, i am also tired.
06:05:51 <newsham> you should try to load the SF example in proof general, and step through the proof.. for each stepp it will show you what is known in the environment and what the goal is
06:06:00 <newsham> and the tactics "intros" and "reflexivity" will update those
06:06:07 <newsham> you can single step through the proof that way interactively
06:06:29 <newsham> its a shame there is no "live coq" web site that lets you do this online
06:06:31 <Bike> well, why not (besides that i haven't installed an emacs mode in so long)
06:07:27 <Bike> blugh my distro doesn't have coq in the main repos
06:07:39 <newsham> you can prob find a livecd to boot in a virtual machine
06:08:59 <Bike> elliott: yeah, it's in the AUR. not hard to install or anything, but a bit annoying
06:09:07 <Bike> and it comes with some IDE for some reason? whatever, less work maybe
06:10:21 <newsham> oh, it looks like there are some SF youtube vids
06:10:31 <newsham> maybe they would have good walktrhoughs of some proofs
06:11:17 <Bike> i'm looking at this for weird reasons nobody here would probably like
06:12:24 <newsham> the great thing about knowledge, we dont have to approve
06:15:20 <Bike> you say that now, but watch me use coq to sink california
06:21:13 <newsham> you're working for a hedge fund?
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07:06:43 <b_jonas> I'm hoping for something like: 3100,182,4,10001coin 10866,3582,22002,22002coin 192,1051,25,1056coin 11652,22252,23004,22002coin 8500,,4, 3001,,,coin
07:06:57 <b_jonas> 3100,182,4,10001coin 10866,3582,22002,22002coin 192,1051,25,1056coin 11652,22252,23004,22002coin 8500,,4,coin 3001,,,coin
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07:28:27 <?unknown?> [freenode-info] please register your nickname...don't forget to auto-identify! http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
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11:34:33 <HackEgo> bizobcoin pbocoin qweverpacoin rutcrtlcoin vowelcoin jumcoin kethaxcoin twositcoin fitcoin auticonformcoin jash-01coin haniacoin tediumbraincoin hunkatorecoin omecoin thestaicoin chocoin velacoin palcoin revoycoin
11:35:02 <fizzie> fungot: Couldn't you take care of your fellow bots?
11:35:03 <fungot> fizzie: so the way it does and it reports a problem on 1 exercise... 1 exercise i really dont have a clue understand his point ( because the fnord one that chances are if you never exit? that book sucks.
11:36:22 <Melvar> ( the (3 `LTE` 5) (tactics search)
11:36:24 <idris-bot> lteSucc (lteSucc (lteSucc lteZero)) : LTE 3 5
11:37:22 <Melvar> Bike: ↑ The search tactic in Idris mostly just tries constructors, which works for simple things like this.
11:58:43 <HackEgo> timensifticcoin andcoin rubicoin eodcoin poikecoin wailcoin morascoin contcoin dobeycoin quotecoin spiuntinecoin mismcoin monecoin existcoin agrtecoin boarceacoin braincoin illgaudeliumcoin factcoin tapascoin
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12:22:22 <b_jonas> overheared coworker in meeting room saying "it's all the same because it's Turing complete"
12:24:53 <oerjan> b_jonas: just start giving him code in befunge hth
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12:32:04 <b_jonas> is funge-98 the one with bounded memory?
12:32:13 <b_jonas> or only bounded code space?
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12:35:28 <b_jonas> right, funge-98 allows arbitrary playfield dimensions,
12:39:46 <b_jonas> I wonder if my old olvashato language counts as esoteric
12:40:06 <b_jonas> it wasn't designed to be difficult to program in, so it might not count
12:41:24 <b_jonas> let me look up the official definition
12:41:45 <b_jonas> "An esoteric programming language is a computer programming language designed to experiment with weird ideas, to be hard to program in, or as a joke, rather than for practical use." -- I could argue either way
12:46:24 <elliott> http://catseye.tc/node/The_Aesthetics_of_Esolangs is my preferred vague definition of esoteric, I think
12:46:24 <oerjan> how can a language whose name means "readable" be esoteric that's absurd
12:50:18 <oerjan> also why won't ó work on google's pages in my browser
12:51:52 <oerjan> b_jonas: i corrected to funge-98 to make it clear i meant the tc variant.
12:52:12 <oerjan> or well, less un-tc. not sure if there are still some limits.
12:52:41 <elliott> funge-98 is at least as-TC-as-C, I think
12:52:43 <b_jonas> oerjan: too late to rename
12:52:50 <elliott> and has enough holes that there's probably something TC hiding in there
12:52:56 <elliott> especially with fingerprints
12:55:09 <b_jonas> oerjan: the original purpose was to make a language in which I write ugly source code, and it's compiled to readable standard ml and readable prolog code; but I sort of ran out of time and the readable part got dropped so now the compiled code is even more ugly than the original
12:55:48 <b_jonas> I might be able to make the output a bit more readable if I fix the indenting (though that's not trivial) and throw in some peep-hole beautification rules
12:56:10 <b_jonas> (it already has some of the latter, but needs more)
12:56:16 <oerjan> `addquote <b_jonas> oerjan: the original purpose was to make a language in which I write ugly source code, and it's compiled to readable standard ml and readable prolog code; but I sort of ran out of time and
12:56:17 <HackEgo> 1207) <b_jonas> oerjan: the original purpose was to make a language in which I write ugly source code, and it's compiled to readable standard ml and readable prolog code; but I sort of ran out of time and
12:56:20 <oerjan> the readable part got dropped so now the compiled code is even
12:56:22 <oerjan> more ugly than the original
12:56:40 <oerjan> bloody irssi line merging worked half-way
12:57:12 <oerjan> `addquote <b_jonas> oerjan: the original purpose was to make a language in which I write ugly source code, and it's compiled to readable standard ml and readable prolog code; but I sort of ran out of time and the readable part got dropped so now the compiled code is even more ugly than the original
12:57:13 <HackEgo> 1207) <b_jonas> oerjan: the original purpose was to make a language in which I write ugly source code, and it's compiled to readable standard ml and readable prolog code; but I sort of ran out of time and the readable part got dropped so now the compiled code is even more ugly than the original
12:57:42 <b_jonas> stuff's already here, for ages: http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/olvashato/
13:00:39 <oerjan> i am pretty sure using ruby to compile something into prolog and sml is blasphemic hth
13:01:46 <oerjan> because sml is the language that's supposed to be good for implementing compilers in
13:02:28 <b_jonas> what? I thought sml is supposed to be a general-purpose language with definition available only in some expensive book
13:03:10 <oerjan> well it is general purpose, but ml was _created_ for implementing other languages in
13:03:20 <oerjan> the name stands for "meta-language"
13:04:09 <oerjan> of course ocaml and haskell are also good examples, being similar in the ways that matter.
13:04:11 <slereah_> I am trying to write over some text of console, but so far nothing works D:
13:04:27 <slereah_> Neither fflush nor printf("\b") nor ncurses
13:04:55 <oerjan> hm how much has sml been hurt in recent years by being closed-documentation
13:05:43 <b_jonas> slereah_: try printf("\b\x7f") to overpunch the character with delete so the column is skipped when the tape is read back
13:06:11 <oerjan> i suspect prolog is also good to write implementations in. erlang was originally written in it?
13:06:41 <slereah_> Nope, it just writes \x7f as the unicode character 007f
13:07:22 <b_jonas> oerjan: I did consider writing an interpreter in prolog and one in sml plus only a minimal translator that translates the syntax of the program to a data structure in the input syntax of those two languages
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13:07:53 <b_jonas> (such as pushes parenthesis and throws in some commas)
13:08:02 <b_jonas> but I decide it wouldn't be simpler
13:08:32 <b_jonas> and I'd likely lose points the result because it's interpreted crap
13:09:12 <slereah_> You need to use \r instead of \n in hthe text
13:10:05 <slereah_> Except now only one line displays instead of the three
13:10:09 <oerjan> b_jonas: hm it looks lispy
13:10:38 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, in particular it's like scheme in that the head of function calls are evaluated the same as other parts
13:11:32 <b_jonas> it's common lispy in that the head of function calls is evaluated differently than the arguments
13:12:00 <b_jonas> that's why there's a primitive function |call| just like in clisp
13:12:26 <b_jonas> but the |let| builtin has a syntax different from lisps
13:14:21 <b_jonas> it's implementable as a lisp macro, but has an unnatural syntax
13:14:51 <oerjan> and here i though b_jonas was your real name
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19:41:54 <HackEgo> 147) <zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream \ 230) <nddrylliog> back to legal tender, that expression really makes me daydream. Like, there'd be black-market tender. Out-of-town hug shops where people exchange tenderness you've NEVER SEEN BEFORE. \ 240) <Phantom__Hoover> Gregor, yeah, but P
19:41:59 <HackEgo> 358) <olsner> as always in sweden everything goes to a fixed pattern: thursday is queueing at systembolaget to get beer and schnaps, friday is pickled herring, schnaps and dancing the frog dance around the phallos, saturday is dedicated to being hung over
19:42:46 <HackEgo> 240) <Phantom__Hoover> Gregor, yeah, but Purdue has poultry science facilities beyond the dreams of avarice.
19:44:16 <olsner> but I did the systembolaget yesterday, 5 minutes before closing when it was empty, so I neatly evaded the queueing
19:48:02 <olsner> btw, someone just pointed out that the frog dance is likely a jab at the french, imported from english derogative use of "frog" (but frog doesn't really mean that in swedish)
19:48:13 <olsner> it's also danced to a french march
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19:59:00 <fizzie> I like the name "systembolaget".
20:02:32 <fizzie> Can't find the etymology in the (English) 'pedia.
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20:03:14 <fizzie> Our counterpart is just called "Alko", which is very boring.
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20:04:30 <fizzie> The Norwegian version has a refreshingly direct name. ("Vinmonopolet".)
20:05:27 <olsner> yeah, exactly what it says, it's pretty nice
20:06:53 <fizzie> "During the 1939-40 Winter War the company [Alko, or Oy Alkoholiliike Ab as it was then called] mass-produced molotov cocktails for the Finnish military, production totalling 450,000 units" heh
20:07:36 <olsner> it seems that "system" comes from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothenburg_Public_House_System
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20:25:16 <applybot> Meta-commands: colour context help info load* restart shutdown* state timeout* undo unicode unload* \ Isabelle commands: apply by declare defer definition done find_theorems fun function lemma oops prefer primrec quickcheck term termination thm try0 typ unfolding using value
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21:13:54 <fizzie> fungot: Prove something.
21:13:55 <fungot> fizzie: src/ ip.h or is it
21:14:16 <fungot> mroman: damn. he got that. but still patch of green where medialab extension is supposed to
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21:41:52 <applybot> Loaded theories: Main "~~/src/HOL/Library/Code_Target_Nat" "~~/src/HOL/Number_Theory/Primes" \ 0 lines in session. \ Command timeout is 20 s. \ Unicode translation disabled. \ Colour output disabled.
21:42:26 <MDude> applybot: help state
21:42:26 <applybot> state: Show the state of the current proof (if there is one).
21:43:22 <MDude> applybot: help context
21:43:22 <applybot> context [N]: Show the most recent (N) lines in this session.
21:43:42 <MDude> applybot context 10
21:43:54 <MDude> applybot: context 10
21:44:21 <MDude> applybot: help term
21:44:36 <MDude> applybot: help Isabelle
21:44:50 <fungot> MDude: in the matter... things will fnord down after this week hopefully.
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22:02:46 <boily> an sudden opportunity appears! b_jonas, how would you wisdomically describe yourself?
22:04:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AlphaBeta]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39860&oldid=34593 * 188.192.76.116 * (+257) Added Lua implementation from Michael Armbruster
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23:10:15 <MDude> Oh, metasepia has left.
23:11:36 <HackEgo> metasepia knows the weather at your nearest airport, and also something about ducks.
23:13:52 <Taneb> `learn MDude is just a dude, with an M's courage.
23:17:47 <oerjan> are you sure he's not a million dudes
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23:21:33 <MDude> That would be pretty cool.
23:22:22 <Sgeo> Who was that person in B who blatantly had no idea about anything in the rules?
23:22:57 <MDude> I don't know what B is, so if I was in it I clearly had no idea.
23:23:41 <Sgeo> I think that serves as proof that MDude was that person in B
23:24:34 <MDude> It's pretty strong evidence.
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23:55:40 <oerjan> argh i now have _four_ tabs with shtetl-optimized comment threads open that i haven't managed to finish...
23:56:38 <oerjan> (even once. i sometimes go back to old ones to check for new comments.)
23:57:30 <Sgeo> Is that F# monad tutorial that doesn't say 'monad' about monads in general or just the Error monad?
23:58:03 <oerjan> it's really a thinly disguised burrito cookbook hth
23:59:18 <Sgeo> http://www.calcentral.com/~monadrailway/Monad/Welcome.html
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00:03:08 <oerjan> ...someone top posted in one of the comment threads...
00:17:45 <oerjan> yay finally managed to close one of the tabs
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01:26:44 <Fossil> Hi everybody, I am here again!
01:28:05 <Fossil> Somebody available here?
01:28:06 <Bike> Hi Fossil, I am also here.
01:28:32 <Fossil> I am happy because You here again, too.
01:29:24 <Fossil> If you go to my webpage, the parancssor.info/forum , you can see, that I changed the language from Hungary to English.
01:30:24 <Fossil> Because, Yesterday here in this channel the community was nice, and all peoples said that my english knowledge not too bad, enough good to understand it.
01:31:02 <oerjan> we forgot something yesterday...
01:31:06 <HackEgo> Fossil: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:31:26 <oerjan> (actually HackEgo maybe wasn't here)
01:31:46 <Fossil> And I arrived at a decision, that I finish my hungarian language publications, and begin it in English.
01:32:20 <oerjan> as they say, your english is better than our hungarian
01:33:02 <Fossil> ??? Excuse me, I dont understand enough good: Now my english is understable or not?
01:33:37 <Fossil> Because, I begun translate the documentation of my mau language from hungarian to (my bad) English...
01:35:19 <Fossil> If You want, I can now copy to here lines by lines the first few parts of the translated documentation, for verifying, your community find it enough good "human readable", or not.
01:39:17 <oerjan> ok but not too much at once
01:39:43 <Fossil> Okay, attention please! I begin it.
01:40:11 <Fossil> The mau programming language Version number: 16 Release date: 2014.06.13 The official webpage and forum of the mau programming language: http://parancssor.info M@U "The programming language with efficient line noise"
01:40:41 <Fossil> You should know, that the mau interpreter is female, therefore her personal pronoun is "she"... Compiling options of the mau language Type simple: make Then come into existence the binary file named mau and this is the mau interpreter. Now you should to copy it into a directory, which is available in the $PATH variable of your operating system.
01:40:52 <oerjan> is the @ in M@U official?
01:41:43 <oerjan> ...wait i seem to remember that hungarian has ungendered pronouns :P
01:41:59 <Fossil> The M@U is only a "slogan", an ascii-art picture symbol
01:42:48 <Fossil> Yes, you re well, in hungarian no difference between she he and it. But this is significant in an english documentation...
01:43:45 <Fossil> In hungarian, she and he is: "ő", and lot of times the "it" equal "ő" too, if not, then it=az.
01:44:13 <Fossil> I continue the copy of documentation.
01:44:14 <oerjan> i learned a very little bit of hungarian once, so i remember that.
01:44:17 <Fossil> The mau interpreter has built-in support of the handling of the special flags of the "ext" filesystems, therefore she need the ext2 header files. They available usually in the program-pack named generally „e2fsprogs” in the Linux program-economy (or something alike). This files consequently are dependencies of the mau language—quasi. But they are only seeming, supposed dependencies, because if we not use ext filesystem, we can c
01:45:04 <Fossil> with the following steps: in the first lines of the vz.h file search this line: #define EXT2ATTRIBUTUMOK change to this: // #define EXT2ATTRIBUTUMOK or erase it fully.
01:45:14 <Fossil> In this case she not claim the ext2 header files, and the e2fsprogs pack. But, of course, in exchange, if we all the same run a mau program which would like handling this ext2 flags, then they running will broken, and the interpreter will tie-up, with this error message:
01:45:24 <Fossil> LOG:> 2014.04.03 23:07:12 : E mau interpreter ext2 filerendszer támogatás nélkül lett lefordítva, emiatt nem képes beolvasni az ext filerendszer-specifikus flageket!
01:45:48 <Fossil> Additionally, the mau interpreter has as optional dependency the X server. This mean, that in the vz.h file exist this compiler directive:
01:45:56 <Fossil> #define X11INTEGRATION
01:46:07 <Fossil> Hereat she claim certain header files for the handling possibilities of a some X functions. For ekzample the reading of the clipboard-content. In so far as we no claim this ability of her, then we can erase from the vz.h file the line written above, also in the Makefile file we should rewrite line:
01:46:13 <Fossil> LIBS = -ldl -lX11 -lXmu
01:46:23 <Fossil> as we trim from its end the last two parameters, i.e. should fall behin only this:
01:46:40 <Fossil> Over and above, the mau interpreter is aware support for multiple architecture. In principle, at least... In effect, nowadays she is operable under the platform of the X86 32 & 64 bits only. She is compilable without any extremelly action, but in the 64 bit version the „long double” variables are stored in 16 bytes, on the other hand in the 32 bits version only in 12 bytes.
01:46:52 <Fossil> This sign the variable type, which join in the mau language to the #D casting operator. In this case, all mau program using this variable type should work without a hitch, smooth, but this size-abatement apparently issue in lower precision, sorry!
01:47:00 <Fossil> If somebody would probe to porting this language to other platforms, for ekzample under Windows or Mac alá, than the cheafest first step should to be that in the vz.h file search this lines:
01:47:09 <oerjan> i think that is enough
01:48:24 <Fossil> Okay. What you think, continue I the translation in this quality, or no?
01:50:57 <oerjan> it is possible to read, but i have to guess what some words mean
01:52:11 <oerjan> since i am norwegian, i am a bit unsure if it is harder or easier for a native english speaker
01:52:49 <Fossil> I would like, that after I will finished my horrible translation, and I upload the document to my webpage, somebody would as highly nice, to corrent it to a good English.
01:54:02 <Fossil> Maybe if you understand it, hopefully a native english speaker understand it too. That is sure, I cannot translate it better as you read it above.
01:56:06 <oerjan> using "she" for the interpreter is highly unusual, anyway.
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01:56:44 <elliott> what if your interpreter is a ship?
01:56:48 <Fossil> Unusual thing coming good to an "esoteric" language, or...?
01:58:52 <Fossil> Excuse me elliot, I dont understand your question. Ship? Ocean vehicle? My interpreter? Dont understand, sorry...
01:59:18 <Bike> ships are usually referred to as women in english for whatever reason
02:01:30 <Fossil> I named it to female, because in Egypt exist a cat cast named "mau", and this is a emblem, symbol of my mau. And, hungarian peoples think, that the cat animal a little bit alike to the womens, to females...
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02:03:22 <Fossil> dogs = male. Cats = female.
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02:05:23 <Bike> and yes, ship like the ocean vehicle
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02:07:50 <Fossil> To this time I was dont know, that for english peoples the ships are females. I think, this equal with the manner of hungarian peoples, which think, that cats are mostly females behaviour havend.
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02:10:34 <Fossil> This language can to be very, true usefull for lot of jobs, because she is very fast, she has almost nothing dependencies, her binary size is small, not need lot of resources, and as I think, her support highestly theINDIRECTION, because in the mau almost all small/little thras/things can to be an arithmetical (or string) expression, the variable names too, or the function names, the jumping labels, the casting operators, the arithmet
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02:10:58 <Fossil> Chapter 1 - The variables of the mau language
02:11:10 <Fossil> If somebody at first time view to a mau program, belike will appalled, because it seems highly, absolutely unintelligible, baffling, beyond one's depth. To the nearest approach to the Perl language, but so much the worse. This general aspect at the same time spring just from one thing: thus, the mau language handle the variables forsooth considerably exotic, for the rest to the speeding up of the programs run.
02:11:24 <Fossil> By all accounts, in no way under discussion, be in the bag, that the biggest difficulty in the prehension of the mau language, is the variable-handling. After the survival this, the rest is already easy.
02:11:33 <Fossil> Scilicet, the mau has very lot of advantage, for ekzample she has countless builtin high-level datatypes: strings (2 different string types), arrays, string arrays, stacks, directory (yes, this is a special datatype designed for the Linux directory structure!), inputfile, outputfile, streams, bitfields... And more others coming soon!
02:11:41 <Fossil> Consequently, this language is actually very EASY, it is a good as saying that she is directly COMFY. Except the variable names, yes, sorry & excuse me...
02:13:58 <Fossil> Okay, Now I should say goodbye, friend, because I should continue my translations of the mau documentation...
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06:41:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Keya]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39861&oldid=39338 * Rdebath * (+0) You're a (tiny) bit better than that.
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07:04:17 <myname> "brainfuck equivalent" would be a funny category for everything that is turing complete
07:10:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Witeal]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39862 * Rdebath * (+1065) Nope, can't write an interpreter.
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09:55:47 <mroman> I failed the crypto exam :(
09:56:03 <slereah> Were the questions encrypted
09:59:51 <mroman> I probably passed it, but I blew it in my eyes.
10:00:40 <b_jonas> slereah: that's like the time travel exam where the questions are posed after you have to hand in the answers?
10:01:01 <slereah> well if you pass you really deserve it
10:01:09 <slereah> I wonder if there's time travel exams
10:01:20 <slereah> Like exams on closed timelike curve in general relativity
10:01:32 <mroman> I couldn't fully answer one question
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10:05:12 <b_jonas> slereah: not exams. there's just one exam which everyone takes.
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10:25:28 <ais523> wait, is Pluso basically a more limited version of Deadfish?
10:25:51 <ais523> Deadfish minimization is not an area of esolang development I had really considered
10:28:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39863&oldid=39842 * Ais523 * (+184) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */ respond
10:29:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39864&oldid=39863 * Ais523 * (+64) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */ and another response; be more ambitious, people
10:36:40 <ais523> wait, are Supreme Court judgements /really/ written in Computer Modern? or is it just that the person who puts them up on their official website goes via TeX?
10:42:38 <b_jonas> ais523: they're just lazy to change the default font
10:43:04 <ais523> it's not the default for anything but TeX and TeX-based typesetters, though, as far as I know
10:43:29 <b_jonas> ais523: and formulas in mathjax and a few other similar stuff, yeah
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13:27:32 <oerjan> <slereah> Were the questions encrypted <-- just be glad they weren't steganographed hth
13:37:57 <oerjan> `addquote <ais523> wait, is Pluso basically a more limited version of Deadfish? <ais523> Deadfish minimization is not an area of esolang development I had really considered
13:37:58 <HackEgo> 1208) <ais523> wait, is Pluso basically a more limited version of Deadfish? <ais523> Deadfish minimization is not an area of esolang development I had really considered
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14:44:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Gentzen]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39865 * GreyKnight * (+378) Created page with "== variation on cmp == A function similar to cmp would be: cmpv : (*a |- *b; *a |- *c; *a |- *d) / ($1(|\|), $2(|\|), *a |- *b, *c, *d); Maybe you can think of a use for th..."
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15:57:50 <int-e> finding a small sets of participants in the trolling loop on ##math, at that time. :-/
15:58:04 <int-e> not so interesting.
15:59:58 <password2> does anthing interesstin ever happen on ##math
16:01:17 <int-e> it seems to work for homework help most of the time, with occasional outbursts of trollery. if you look for brilliancies you should probably go elsewhere.
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16:03:50 <int-e> elliott: +q, but yeah that's what I did
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16:06:17 <ion> One of the best so far. :-D http://gooby.naurunappula.com/org/c9/51/c951092405fe15a3/0/1207578.gif
16:08:06 <elliott> int-e: the worst part is when it's obvious someone is being disruptive, but there's no good way of explaining why they should be +q'd/+b'd, especially since it's not obvious they're doing it maliciously, so you do nothing :(
16:09:42 <Quintopia> int-e: oh cool i'm glad you took care of that. i got so disgusted i had to go far away for a while
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18:03:09 <mroman> N^2 / ((N^2)/k + k*N) peaks at k = sqrt(N)
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18:14:50 <FreeFull> Plotting the graph shows it converging to some value at infinity
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18:18:28 <int-e> it does, for fixed N
18:21:11 <FreeFull> It seems to be a sort of 1/x curve
18:22:07 <int-e> note that by the AGM inequality, (N^2)/k + k*N >= 2sqrt(N^3), with equality when N^2/k = k*N, i.e., k = sqrt(N).
18:22:24 <FreeFull> Actually, it does seem to have one maximum and one minimum
18:22:37 <int-e> so N^2/((N^2)/k + k*N) <= sqrt(N)/2 with equality when k = sqrt(N).
18:23:27 <FreeFull> https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=N^2%2F%28N^2%2Fx+%2B+x*N%29
18:25:41 <FreeFull> Should differentiate it to find the maximum
18:28:27 <FreeFull> diff(a/(a/k + k*b)) = ((a/k + k*b) - a*(b - a/k^2))/(a/k + k*b)^2
18:28:34 <FreeFull> Writing this out in text looks ugly
18:29:24 <mroman> FreeFull: If k is too high the algorithm doesn't scale anymore
18:29:41 <mroman> then the + term becomes N^N
18:29:52 <mroman> so it can't possibly be better than N^2
18:30:36 <mroman> (k is the number of processors for example)
18:30:49 <FreeFull> mroman: I'd just use newton's method
18:31:21 <FreeFull> I think it always converges quickly if you're using it to calculate square roots
18:32:44 <mroman> I don't want to calculate square roots
18:33:36 <mroman> I just had a hunch that this won't scale for large k
18:33:51 <mroman> and it looks like you get the best performance for k = sqrt(n)
18:34:14 <mroman> (N^2 is the regular algorithm)
18:34:46 <mroman> and (N^2)/k + N*k is an algorithms that divides the problem
18:36:41 <mroman> but you can't divide it arbitrarily
18:36:55 <mroman> because for k > sqrt(N) it's actually worse than using N*N
18:40:28 <mroman> it's sqrt(n)*0.5 times faster for k = sqrt(n)
18:41:06 <int-e> lalala. "so N^2/((N^2)/k + k*N) <= sqrt(N)/2 with equality when k = sqrt(N)."
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20:17:28 <impomatic_> Wow, this watch has been untouched in a box for 11 years. The battery still hasn't run out, the date is correct, but it's about 5 minutes slow!
20:17:53 <nortti> mechanical or electronic?
20:18:06 <nortti> err, *electric or electronic
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20:23:42 <fizzie> Maybe it's 65 minutes slow and there's been a daylight savings time thing.
20:24:05 <fizzie> If that works in the right direction, I can't be bothered thinking it through.
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20:28:00 <elliott> fizzie: still worn out from that one argument you had?
20:28:53 <fizzie> How do you even remember that? (I'm reminded of it every time I accidentally open Google Drive, because I've got that Spreadsheet of Proof in there.)
20:29:54 <elliott> I have a good memory for useless things.
20:30:00 <elliott> there's something from it in the qdb, I think.
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20:36:56 <mroman> the thruth is, that the watch is 1 day and 5 minutes behind
20:39:02 <fizzie> "the date is correct" seems to contradict that.
20:51:38 <mroman> I should read whole sentences .
20:51:52 <mroman> unless it show the year too
20:52:04 <mroman> which electronic watches probably can do
20:52:13 <mroman> I'm gonna hide under the table now .
20:53:46 <elliott> it's so far back it thinks it's 2014 BC.
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20:58:29 <mroman> IT'S USING THE WRONG CALENDAR
20:58:40 <elliott> you're using the wrong capitalisation.
20:58:49 <mroman> I'm just using capsloc
20:59:28 <mroman> I wonder why someone invented that key
21:01:20 <mroman> My mechanical watch is so good, it has glow in the dark dots where the numbers are
21:01:48 <mroman> just some stupid idiot forgot to make the pointers glow in the dark two
21:01:56 <mroman> No I know where the hours are
21:02:45 <mroman> I really don't get why you'd make the numbers glow in the dark but not the pointers
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21:12:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39866&oldid=39504 * 188.192.76.116 * (+0) /* Lua */ Bugfix for accumulator (now every value beyond 256 will set the accumulator to 0)
21:14:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39867&oldid=39866 * 69.166.35.231 * (+0) Undo revision 39866 by [[Special:Contributions/188.192.76.116|188.192.76.116]] ([[User talk:188.192.76.116|talk]]) as an entomologist i assure you that that is a feature.
21:15:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Witeal]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39868&oldid=39862 * GermanyBoy * (+767)
21:15:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Witeal]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39869&oldid=39868 * GermanyBoy * (-206)
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21:18:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Witeal]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39870&oldid=39869 * GermanyBoy * (+3)
21:19:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Witeal]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39871&oldid=39870 * GermanyBoy * (+88)
21:20:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Witeal]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39872&oldid=39871 * GermanyBoy * (-88) Undo revision 39871 by [[Special:Contributions/GermanyBoy|GermanyBoy]] ([[User talk:GermanyBoy|talk]])
21:21:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Witeal]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39873&oldid=39872 * GermanyBoy * (-3) Undo revision 39870 by [[Special:Contributions/GermanyBoy|GermanyBoy]] ([[User talk:GermanyBoy|talk]])
21:22:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Witeal]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39874&oldid=39873 * GermanyBoy * (+206) Undo revision 39869 by [[Special:Contributions/GermanyBoy|GermanyBoy]] ([[User talk:GermanyBoy|talk]]) sent accidentally wrong versions
21:24:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Witeal]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39875&oldid=39874 * GermanyBoy * (+41)
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22:24:23 <impomatic_> Has anyone seen one of these before? https://twitter.com/john_metcalf/status/480113808753844224
22:25:33 <Bike> i haven't. it looks like an old cash register.
22:25:53 <Bike> are those buttons on the left of the numpad circuit components? looks neat
22:28:21 <impomatic_> I have no idea what it's supposed to do.
22:28:51 <impomatic_> I don't think they're components. One looks like a capacitor, the others don't look like components.
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22:29:14 <Bike> as long as you're on twitter i'd ask @textfiles
22:29:16 <impomatic_> The blue keys are labelled RUN, MONTR, PROG
22:29:40 <impomatic_> At the top left are some logic keys, AND OR NOT
22:30:09 <Bike> hm, i see a pdf manual for the Omron Programmable Controller Model SYSMAC-CRT10 but that's probably different
22:31:20 <impomatic_> And there's a list of instructions printed on the top left of the machine, looks like some kind of assembly language.
22:31:48 <Bike> yeah, this looks more like a logic analyzer
22:32:08 <Bike> pick this up at a flea sale or something?
22:32:17 <Bike> http://www.omronkft.hu/
22:32:53 <Bike> oh, whoever replied is probably right
22:33:28 <Bike> er, are you not john metcalf, sorry
22:34:15 <Bike> if you search "gpc" on omronkft you'll find a number of manuals
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22:37:56 <impomatic_> I've just found another Omron box and a cable. Will try connecting them later. (It boots up okay into a menu).
22:39:18 <Bike> you should use it to set up your very own assembly line
22:39:28 <Bike> producing omron graphic programming controllers, perhaps
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22:49:22 * impomatic_ is playing with this one now https://twitter.com/john_metcalf/status/480120069314596865
22:50:11 <Bike> #supercomputing
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23:50:00 <oerjan> fantastic, someone got /r/redditrequests banned...
23:50:36 <oerjan> oh wait it shouldn't have the s
23:55:55 <boily> how do you ban a subreddit itself?
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00:07:40 <oerjan> boily: by using it only for spam, i think.
00:08:15 <oerjan> at least the message speaks of spam filters
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00:10:51 <boily> and now, time for a good coma session. 'night all!
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07:45:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Witeal]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39876&oldid=39875 * Rdebath * (+1058) /* Issues */
07:47:18 <password2> all the topics that peaks my interests get removed
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08:28:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Gentzen]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39877&oldid=39865 * Zzo38 * (+276) Definition of cmpv in terms of cmp, I think?
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14:14:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastequote: not found
14:14:51 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.6385
14:15:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Witeal]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39878&oldid=39876 * GermanyBoy * (+313)
14:22:45 <boily> @tell tswett you are now reunited with the Warrigal side of the force.
14:27:49 <oerjan> does this mean we are doomed twh
14:30:37 <boily> oerjan: no, it just mean I updated the Infamous PDF. tsh.
14:31:01 <boily> I'm reading The City & The City, by China Miéville.
14:31:07 <boily> that is one weeeeeird book.
14:31:35 <boily> it's not horrific. at least not yet.
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14:35:42 <boily> Quintopia: are you reading interesting stuff as of lately too?
14:36:05 <oerjan> i once read City by clifford Simak hth
14:36:29 <oerjan> (that's also weird. of course it's scifi.)
14:36:45 <Quintopia> when i searched for the city and the city, a play at the lifeline theater came up. then the wikipedia said it was an adaptation of the book to the stage
14:37:01 <Quintopia> but the setting seems interesting. i'll consider it for a future read.
14:37:20 <Quintopia> boily: you'll call me woefully behind the times, but i'm reading american gods for the first time
14:37:57 <boily> I haven't read anything Gaiman yet.
14:39:38 <Quintopia> well, i like this one much better than the last one i read (and the last one was pretty awesome)
14:39:46 <Quintopia> but i'm biased because i'm american
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14:59:14 * boily lightly mapoles Quintopia to check if he's a god. «hmm... how does one mapoles for godhood?»
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15:17:31 <boily> oerjan: the experience seems inconclusive.
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16:32:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Polyglot]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39879 * Rdebath * (+413) WTF is this!
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17:09:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Witeal]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39880&oldid=39878 * Rdebath * (+410)
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17:37:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdebath/deadbeef]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39881 * Rdebath * (+4044) Nice little BF interpreter
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17:53:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39882&oldid=39702 * Rdebath * (+421) /* Optimizing implementations */
17:56:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39883&oldid=39882 * Rdebath * (+0) Libbf does a lot of optimisation
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19:53:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ashtol]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39884&oldid=39163 * 188.192.76.116 * (+275) /* External Resources */ Added Lua Interpreter for Ashtol by Michael Armbruster
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20:11:16 <zzo38> Do you know if it is possible on Android to add an icon for locally downloaded HTML+JavaScript files?
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20:17:27 <fizzie> Hm. I could navigate to file:///sdcard/.../blah.html in Chrome (stock Android 4.4.2) and successfully select "Add to homescreen" from the menu, but tapping on the resulting icon just results in the message "App isn't installed."
20:19:26 <zzo38> Maybe you have to put it in the internal NVRAM instead of SD card? (Does it even have internal NVRAM or Flash memory that can be used for this purpose?)
20:20:35 <fizzie> I also have "ES File Explorer" installed, and it's "Add to desktop" option generated a sort-of working icon.
20:21:17 <fizzie> Tapping on it opens the "what do you want to open it with" dialog.
20:21:40 <zzo38> Why is the built-in option not working though?
20:22:19 <fizzie> This is all in built-in memory; despite the /sdcard in the patg, there's no SD card slot in this device.
20:22:53 <zzo38> O, then why does it say that? Is that why it says it isn't installed?
20:23:05 <fizzie> I don't know why the Chrome icon does not work. It works for a http:// link.
20:25:47 <zzo38> Perhaps this is a bug that they forgot to specify the built-in program associated with file: URLs.
20:27:10 <zzo38> Can you avoid the "what do you want to open it with" dialog if you have option to "add to desktop with" menu?
20:43:25 <fizzie> The dialog has a choice between "just once" and "always", so I suspect selecting the latter makes it stop asking. Though I don't know if the choice is particular to the link or the type of file or what.
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21:05:48 <mroman> I'd like to have an option "for the next N times"
21:13:07 <b_jonas> maybe after n times you can find some setting where you reset it
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23:22:24 <oerjan> ooh they managed to take over /r/physics
23:23:54 <oerjan> well /u/regua did, i guess he was the first to officially try
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23:24:15 <oerjan> finally there may be some moderation again
23:25:21 <oerjan> quite possibly more than under the old moderator, who believed strongly in moderation while moderating.
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23:28:45 <oerjan> on the downside, that inflation discovery from earlier this year seems more and more uncertain :(
23:29:06 <Quintopia> what was the result again? i think i vaguely remember
23:30:30 <oerjan> they found a type of polarization in the cosmic microwave background that they thought was produced from gravitional waves left over from the universe's first fraction of a second, when it was inflating.
23:31:26 <oerjan> but later the critisism has grown that they underestimated the effect of galactic dust, which is similar
23:32:55 <oerjan> although they are waiting for results from other telescopes (planck being the name of one) to confirm or reject
23:39:21 <oerjan> ooh i reloaded and the newsgroup has got tags on the posts
23:39:48 <oerjan> it's as close as you get on the modern web, anyway
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23:43:05 <oerjan> although to be honest it looks a bit noisy to me.
23:53:09 <oerjan> wait am i forgetting to eat again
23:54:00 <MDude> You're just waiting for me to eat.
23:54:27 <MDude> But the lasagna is taking too long in the over over here.
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00:22:25 <oerjan> MDude: can i start eating now?
00:23:32 * oerjan interprets silence as agreement
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04:35:38 <zzo38> Is it possible to program Mozilla to rewrite URLs?
04:49:19 <MDude> You mean in the address bar, or in page links?
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04:49:51 <ais523> zzo38: I tried to write an extension to do that, I failed (but I didn't try very hard)
04:50:01 <ais523> I'm pretty sure it's possible, but am surprised that it doesn't seem to have been done already
04:52:25 <zzo38> I mean in page links
04:52:37 <zzo38> As well as redirects and stuff like that
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05:33:27 <Sgeo> Does using something like Charles or Fiddler to force that URL to respond as a 302 count?
05:33:35 <Sgeo> I do that sort of thing (well, maybe not exactly) all the time
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07:24:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39885&oldid=39782 * Rdebath * (+1601) Upgrade of the awk based converter
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08:03:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdebath]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39886&oldid=39885 * Rdebath * (+0) /* Current Version of the awk based converter */
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09:50:14 <Phantom_Hoover> i need to go back in time 150 years and get a maths degree then
09:52:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gentzen]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39887&oldid=39858 * Zzo38 * (+1122)
09:59:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gentzen]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39888&oldid=39887 * Zzo38 * (+503) Typeclass definition
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10:11:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gentzen]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39889&oldid=39888 * Zzo38 * (+324)
10:13:15 <zzo38> Now I have described more about how classes work in Gentzen programming language.
10:22:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gentzen]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39890&oldid=39889 * Zzo38 * (+38)
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12:42:14 <boily> ggGgGGGGgggg gGGgGG?
12:46:34 <boily> not quite, but if so, then it. but yet... maybe?
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12:54:33 <int-e> boily: that's an awful password
12:56:27 <mroman> It has lower case, upper case
12:56:35 <mroman> and two special characters space and ?
12:59:44 <olsner> hm, this is stupid, I made a programming language (some time ago) and it has the same thing as c/c++ where some bits of the grammar depend on whether or not a name is known to be a type
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13:23:40 <boily> int-e: I like passwords like *******.
13:24:00 <boily> olsner: which bits?
13:28:16 <olsner> well, the grammar might or might not actually be ambiguous, but my parser needs to know that foo is a type to parse declarations like foo bar;
13:33:23 <boily> remove ambiguity and make everything a type :D
13:35:59 <olsner> or remove the syntax for type annotations once I do type inference
13:41:55 <mroman> what could foo be else if not a type?
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14:00:18 <vifino> I just created two esolangs .-.
14:00:59 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
14:01:00 <vifino> Enough fun to do another one
14:01:25 <vifino> First i made DeadFish+,
14:01:37 <idris-bot> (input):1:10: error: expected: "$",
14:02:10 <nortti> it's a bot that uses ( as prefix
14:03:01 <vifino> currently i am fixing the loops
14:03:26 <vifino> just not the way i intended them
14:03:59 <olsner> mroman: an expression ... at least until you parse far enough to notice that you have an "expression" followed by something other than the end of the expression statement
14:04:11 <oerjan> let me guess, they're always run at least once?
14:04:27 <oerjan> (common error when implementing brainfuck)
14:05:24 <boily> vifino: we have bots. many of them.
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14:05:59 <vifino> well, my bot carries the burden of my two langs, and brainfuck
14:06:21 <oerjan> fizzie: excuse me where is fungot when we try to show him off
14:07:12 <boily> fizzie: FUNGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!
14:08:43 <oerjan> `rot13 v'yy unir gb fgrc va
14:09:11 <metasepia> The Anatidae are the biological family of birds that includes ducks, geese and swans. The family has a cosmopolitan distribution, occurring on all the world's continents except Antarctica and on most of the world's islands and island groups. These are birds that are adapted through evolution for swimming, floating on the water surface, and in some cases diving in at least shallow water. The family contains around 146 species in 40 genera. They are ge
14:10:07 <HackEgo> vifino: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:11:22 -!- fungot has joined.
14:11:29 <fungot> oerjan: hangman's fnord toi on fnord :(.
14:11:35 <boily> oh, we haven't `relcomed people in a long time!
14:11:37 <fizzie> Good first impression there.
14:11:51 <fizzie> fungot: You only get one chance to make a first impression!
14:11:52 <fungot> fizzie: no matter how many times do you get that font from?
14:11:52 <boily> fungot: so, how've you been?
14:11:52 <fungot> boily: i'm not saying cl is braindead. okay... so you really need
14:12:24 <boily> oerjan: shush! don't try anything logical with the duck!
14:12:31 <fungot> olsner: sarahbot is back, hmmmm, i liked them so far in sicp yet :) got distracted with an fnord tone. but that's not the rhythm
14:12:31 <HackEgo> 10) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 13) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. plea
14:13:34 <oerjan> boily: strictly speaking that's not actually logical, but don't tell that to gary larson
14:13:44 <boily> vifino: for further details, take a look at the PDF linked in the topic. it explains... well. it explains stuff.
14:14:02 <olsner> `? for further details
14:14:06 <HackEgo> further details? ¯\(°_o)/¯
14:14:32 <olsner> hmm, where did that start again ... never mind
14:14:57 <oerjan> `run grep 'further details' wisdom/*
14:14:59 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/d: Is a directory \ wisdom/for further details.:See `? for further details for futher details. \ wisdom/for further details for futher details.:See `? for further details for futher details. \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory
14:17:40 <oerjan> `run grep 'further details' wisdom/* 2&>/dev/null
14:17:47 <oerjan> `run grep 'further details' wisdom/* 2>&/dev/null
14:17:48 <HackEgo> bash: /dev/null: ambiguous redirect
14:18:22 <oerjan> wait how can there be no output
14:18:40 <oerjan> 2 is the fd for stderr, no?
14:19:05 <oerjan> `run grep 'further details' wisdom/* 2>/dev/null
14:19:06 <HackEgo> wisdom/for further details.:See `? for further details for futher details. \ wisdom/for further details for futher details.:See `? for further details for futher details.
14:19:16 <olsner> `run grep 'further details' wisdom/* 2>&-
14:19:17 <HackEgo> wisdom/for further details.:See `? for further details for futher details. \ wisdom/for further details for futher details.:See `? for further details for futher details.
14:20:26 <oerjan> `run cd wisdom; grep -l 'further details' * 2>/dev/null
14:20:27 <HackEgo> for further details. \ for further details for futher details.
14:20:51 <oerjan> `run cd wisdom; grep -l 'details' * 2>/dev/null
14:20:52 <HackEgo> for further details. \ for further details for futher details. \ goat \ monqy
14:21:43 <oerjan> it's not that either. is your terminal munging quotes?
14:22:54 <HackEgo> Goats are drunk 24/7, ask Solain for details.
14:23:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: source: not found
14:23:09 <boily> vifino: can you type a backquote?
14:23:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
14:23:30 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
14:23:42 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-ircslave ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
14:23:48 <HackEgo> :-( \ 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ UNPA \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
14:24:06 <oerjan> that's not actually the source for the bot itself, though, just its directory contents
14:24:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
14:24:12 <oerjan> which are extensive, mind you
14:24:32 <vifino> `echo "Moop!" > moop.txt
14:24:49 <vifino> `run echo "Moop!" > moop.txt
14:25:43 <boily> you just triggered myndzi, our own half-human half-bot resident! (even if his claims to humanness are unfounded.)
14:26:11 <HackEgo> :-( \ 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ moop.txt \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ UNPA \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
14:26:33 <HackEgo> :-( \ 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ moop.txt \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ UNPA \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
14:26:45 <HackEgo> <html> \ <head> \ <title>Psychose</title> \ </head> \ \ <body>Yayyyy!</body> \ </html>
14:27:03 <HackEgo> </html> \ <body>Yayyyy!</body> \ \ </head> \ <title>Psychose</title> \ <head> \ <html>
14:27:07 <vifino> HackEgo seem a bit unprotected and abusable
14:27:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cowsay: not found
14:27:15 <boily> HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!
14:27:20 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
14:27:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: sl: not found
14:27:37 <boily> vifino: sorry. HackEgo probably is the most anything-proof bot we have here.
14:28:04 <oerjan> boily: i dunno, i don't think anyone has hacked fungot yet
14:28:04 <fungot> oerjan: good eye! i'm indeed using drscheme! do you know a portable way to have something
14:28:07 <olsner> password2: sl running over IRC would be more than a little obnoxious
14:28:20 <boily> oerjan: indeed. fungot is quite robust too.
14:28:21 <fungot> boily: 55 mins??? lst)...)
14:28:55 <boily> password2: I like trains.
14:29:20 <boily> vifino: if you want to have fun with a not-very-stable bot with probably more holes than a pound of gruyère, try metasepia.
14:30:17 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
14:30:55 <boily> oh. yeah. I forgot to update the env on this machine... >_>'...
14:31:17 <metasepia> --- Throw dice, e.g.: dice 6 4 will throw four regular dice.
14:31:20 <oerjan> ~eval cycle "Haskell! "
14:31:31 <metasepia> --- Throw dice, e.g.: dice 6 4 will throw four regular dice.
14:31:35 <boily> oerjan: it may be missing some libs hth
14:31:39 <metasepia> --- Throw dice, e.g.: dice 6 4 will throw four regular dice.
14:31:46 <oerjan> boily: that's prelude hth
14:31:50 <metasepia> --- Throw dice, e.g.: dice 6 4 will throw four regular dice.
14:31:52 <oerjan> ~eval cycle "Haskell! "
14:32:06 <metasepia> 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
14:32:06 <boily> oerjan: I know. it's trying to import stuff that doesn't exist.
14:32:06 -!- metasepia has quit (Excess Flood).
14:32:51 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
14:32:51 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
14:32:52 <myndzi> |\ c.c >\ >\| | >\ c.c /´\ | >\|/´\ c.c >\
14:32:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: celebrate: not found
14:33:05 * boily whistles innocently
14:33:30 <HackEgo> myndzi keeps us all on our feet
14:33:41 <oerjan> password2: sorry, no alien monsters
14:33:56 <boily> oh well. time to mysteriously disappear and go eat some eggs benedict and play mahjong. 役満万歳！
14:33:56 <oerjan> except possibly that c.c not sure what it is
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14:34:14 <olsner> looks multiocular to me
14:34:53 -!- Sorella has joined.
14:35:21 <olsner> but I think the channel's obsession with multiocular o's is more recent than that script, so maybe not
14:36:40 <oerjan> olsner: myndzi's script has been updated, i think the c.c may very well have been multiocularly inspired
14:37:33 <HackEgo> 1140) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
14:38:06 <ion> trypꙮphobia c.c
14:38:49 <oerjan> there are some bugs with that
14:40:15 <ion> Too bad both my IRC client and myndzi try compensate for nick lenghts independently.
14:40:49 <password2> ah , thats why is not always right here
14:40:54 <oerjan> hm it's lucky that ^celebrate is on fungot which has the same length then
14:40:54 <fungot> oerjan: ( or did you just automatically reconnecting? :) ( aren't i lazy :p) ( although, not pushing any one in the book
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14:42:08 <oerjan> myndzi assumes that nicks align to the left
14:42:30 <oerjan> there's no way to support both conventions
14:43:37 <nooodl> ban everyone who doesn't have a six letter nickname
14:43:58 <nooodl> oerjan, myndzi, fungot, me: the enlightened ones
14:43:58 <fungot> nooodl: well, you could just use a cons, you should be able to
14:44:17 -!- password2 has changed nick to passwo.
14:45:14 <HackEgo> 800) <olsner> it's not completely obvious since the displayed nick lengths are rounded to the closest integer
14:45:24 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
14:45:29 <olsner> I don't remember the context, but it could have been this
14:45:30 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for lisp!
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14:46:47 <oerjan> it doesn't give help for individual languages
14:46:56 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
14:47:09 <oerjan> not that i think it has lisp
14:48:12 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for boolfuck!
14:49:13 <oerjan> ^unscramble unscramble
14:50:59 <passwo> how many bots is in this room?
14:51:22 -!- blsqbot has joined.
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14:53:00 <mroman> blsqbot please do quit
14:53:00 -!- blsqbot has quit (Client Quit).
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14:55:40 <oerjan> passwo: i see applybot clog glogbot HackEgo idris-bot fungot EgoBot lambdabot oh there's one more passwordBOT so 9
14:55:41 <fungot> oerjan: i smell. it was a joke in there that you don't) then sicp is an awesome book
14:57:08 <passwo> looking at the code , i definitely had too much time then
14:58:00 <oerjan> this means, shockingly, that we're back below 10% bots again
14:58:04 <HackEgo> lazecoin lynncoin chalcoin llentalk:braicoin tantcoin immercoin auocoin ooicoin clesiscoin gomcoin ethcoin huncoin proogcoin ///coin mercacoin enigcoin nowrcoin phisioncoin muvcoin falgecoin
14:58:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: style: not found
14:58:59 -!- passwordBOT has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:59:23 <passwo> note to self , closing application causes bot to quit
15:00:59 -!- blsqbot has joined.
15:02:06 <mroman> !foo (if== $0 0 (r 5) (if== $0 1 1 (if== 1 (odd $0) (r (add (mul 3 $0) 1)) (r (div $0 2)))))
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15:03:21 <mroman> !foo (if== $0 0 (r 5) (if== $0 1 1 (mul $0 (r (sub $0 1)))))
15:03:23 <oerjan> passwo: it's when closing the application does _not_ do that you need to be worried for the safety of humanity hth
15:03:55 <mroman> !foo (if== $0 0 (r 6) (if== $0 1 1 (mul $0 (r (sub $0 1)))))
15:04:23 -!- realzies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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15:05:04 <passwo> i hve seen foo everywhere
15:05:19 <mroman> nooodl: Doesn't have a fixed name yet
15:05:46 <mroman> Essentially $n refers to arguments
15:05:55 <mroman> r is the recursion Operator
15:06:04 <nooodl> and it's called with $0=0 first?
15:06:34 <passwordBOT> Commands are +bflist: +bf: +bfreset: +bfdump: +bfdumpascii:. This bf interpreter has pointer too!Type +bfop: for a qiuck list
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15:09:37 <mroman> my isp just went down :)
15:09:55 <mroman> !foo (if== $0 0 (r 5 5) (add $0 $1))
15:11:54 <mroman> I intented to use it to teach programming by using a different approach then the "This is a PHP tutorial"-approach ;)
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15:12:55 <mroman> More like a "Here's 10 esolangs"-approach
15:14:13 <Bike> 'how to learn ten shitty programming languages in an hour' sounds marketable
15:17:08 <Bike> http://www.amazon.com/Seven-Languages-Weeks-Programming-Programmers/dp/193435659X
15:17:09 <mroman> It's not so much about actually learning the languages than about learning the concepts
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15:45:47 <mroman> Because it's such a wide spectrum
15:45:54 <mroman> at some point you have to get low level
15:45:58 <mroman> or if you start at low level
15:46:05 <mroman> at some point you have to go high level :)
15:50:08 <vifino> My lang now has if else end statements ^.^
15:52:27 <mroman> nooodl: By convention $0 defines which function you want to call
15:52:36 <mroman> Since you can't define multiple functions
15:52:56 <mroman> you encode which function to call in $0 and use if statements
16:06:04 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
16:09:16 <mroman> !foo (head (cons $0 [1]))
16:09:16 <blsqbot> Uni "head" (Bin "cons" [Get 0,List [Value 1]])
16:09:47 <mroman> Looks like something is too lazy
16:10:47 <newsham> or maybe you humans are being too eager to get a solution ;-)
16:11:06 <mroman> !foo (head (cons $0 [1]))
16:11:08 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-ircslave ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
16:11:20 <mroman> Lists aren't evaluated
16:11:27 <mroman> who needs evaluated lists anyway
16:12:29 <mroman> !foo (head (cons $0 [1]))
16:13:17 <mroman> !foo (head (cons $0 [1]))
16:13:48 <mroman> !foo (head (cons $0 [$0]))
16:17:12 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude.
16:20:54 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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16:52:30 <blsqbot> That line gave me an error
16:55:50 <blsqbot> List [Value 2,Value 3,Value 4]
16:55:56 <mroman> !foo (null (tail [1 2 3 4]))
16:56:31 <mroman> !foo (null (tail [1]))
16:57:03 -!- passwo has changed nick to password2.
16:59:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gentzen]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39891&oldid=39890 * Zzo38 * (+581)
17:01:23 <vifino> Its advancing: http://hastebin.com/opuqemaqop
17:06:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gentzen]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39892&oldid=39891 * Zzo38 * (-78)
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17:28:47 <password2> i want to make game which teaches programming
17:28:59 <password2> where you have to buy each instruction
17:33:34 <vifino> Any recommendations on esolangs I could implement in my bot?
17:34:23 -!- passwordBOT has joined.
17:34:33 <vifino> bf is already implemented in mine
17:34:50 <vifino> so is lolcode and deadfish,deadfish+ and swaglang
17:36:01 <passwordBOT> brainfuck^ opperators are []()<>+-{},. () is like [] except it uses the value the current cell points to , {} is like -+ except it dec/inc the value the cell points to
17:37:28 <password2> or I'm to stupid to use them properly in bf^
17:42:27 <vifino> Already did. Two times.
17:43:07 <password2> someones productive/anti-productive today
17:43:15 <MDude> Then it can be a neuromorphic chatbot.
17:45:38 <MDude> I've been wondering what that language would even sue for input-output, and how it might actually get translated into some sort of neurological structure.
17:47:43 <MDude> That or mechanique, so we can have irc text adventures.
17:48:45 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:48:58 <MDude> Plus, that language also seems kinda suited to conversational bot stuff, in that a text adventure that's just a conversation with the bot seems like it'd work at least well as AIML.
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17:52:34 <vifino> Any requests that would be doable?
17:56:42 <mroman> You could implement foo .
17:56:48 <mroman> It's very easy to implement
17:56:57 <MDude> Not sure what the requirements of doable are, please link vifino doability specifications.
17:57:37 <vifino> Something that has no input, only output, and accepts one liners
17:58:39 <MDude> I''d think input would actually be doable, just not interactive input.
18:00:35 <MDude> Make a language that only accept one-line programs, but which allows calling other programs as functions.
18:02:42 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:03:20 <MDude> Maybe something with reversible logic?
18:04:45 <MDude> Reversible logic is just login wherein all operations are bijective.
18:06:23 <MDude> Here's a list of those that are propey categorized as such: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Reversible_computing
18:08:20 <vifino> My lang is gud compared to brainfuck
18:08:47 <vifino> Current instruction set for swaglang http://hastebin.com/opuqemaqop
18:12:52 <int-e> right. a pastebin that requires javascript. brilliant
18:13:23 <Bike> adapt your language to rquire it to be in heroic couplets, then we'll talk
18:13:48 <Bike> int-e: oh man look at the source
18:13:58 <Bike> content schmontent
18:14:42 <Bike> is textarea even allowed outside of forms?
18:15:22 <MDude> No villainous couplets?
18:15:53 <int-e> Bike: I did. There is some jquery stuff in there, and some hilight.js, but no paste.
18:16:02 <Bike> that's what i mean. It Is Humorous
18:16:14 <int-e> apparently it has a twitter function
18:16:32 <Bike> MDude: it means iambic pentameter couplets, you philistine
18:17:40 <int-e> on the other hand it's lacking the usual google analytics crap. I'm almost willing to enable javascript for that.
18:17:43 <Bike> i will also accept alliterative verse, for extra #swag.
18:17:50 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:18:49 <int-e> (but of course it does fetch jquery from one of google's servers.)
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18:20:31 <MDude> Bike: There's no no need to make fun of ancient palestine like that.
18:21:03 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistinism
18:23:59 <MDude> I don't think you understand puns.
18:24:47 <Bike> and i don't think you understand the exeter book!!!
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18:29:53 <MDude> I don't think anyone's offered to teach me old English in the first place, but fair enough.
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20:44:32 <Sgeo> Some spam said this http://pastie.org/private/0ztiffrizazjjh14vl6dw
20:46:05 <Sgeo> Actually, apparently it was sent two days ago, and I didn't see it until today. So I guess I'm dead and didn't know it?
20:46:46 <MDude> I'll invite you to the funeral.
20:50:18 <int-e> Sgeo: You may be living a lie. [I wish I had come up with this pun myself]
20:53:09 <int-e> complete exchange, but where is it from? the esolang mailing list, perhaps? http://sprunge.us/PWdN
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22:14:40 <metasepia> CYUL 222200Z 20008KT 30SM FEW055 FEW240 23/10 A2997 RMK CU1CI1 CI TR SLP150 DENSITY ALT 1000FT
22:14:44 <metasepia> ENVA 222150Z 29011KT 9999 SCT030 BKN051 10/05 Q1015 RMK WIND 670FT 29018KT
22:15:05 <boily> uhm. it's always +10 on your end.
22:15:21 <oerjan> we're having a cold wave, naturally.
22:15:37 <oerjan> coldest june ever, or something.
22:16:04 <oerjan> apparently there's a pair of high/low pressure areas leading air from the north pole
22:16:56 <oerjan> or well, coldest stretch of june days. the beginning was pretty hot.
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22:19:16 <oerjan> my mind is somehow assuming this means air has to go from somewhere else _to_ the north pole. maybe we finally get the ice free pole that has been predicted for a while
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22:20:11 <oerjan> i wonder if anyone has made a comic of santa's workshop sinking...
22:20:52 <boily> https://www.facebook.com/DavidSuzuki/posts/10150423873498874 ?
22:21:23 <oerjan> googling that phrase seems to bring up a number of pages denying it will happen.
22:22:00 <oerjan> also i said *comic*, not discussion. sheeh.
22:24:17 <oerjan> this is merely descriptive http://ep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/realityzone/UFNnosantacartoon.jpg
22:25:04 <oerjan> this was better. not really a comic though https://sassywire.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/santa2.jpg
22:28:01 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-ircslave ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
22:28:15 <fungot> (Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-ircslave ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !)S
22:28:39 <oerjan> ^def prefixes ul (Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !)S
22:29:04 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo 'Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-ircslave ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !'
22:29:24 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/ircslave/bot/' bin/prefixes
22:29:31 <EgoBot> sh echo 'Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-ircslave ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !'
22:29:39 <EgoBot> Interpreter prefixes deleted.
22:30:07 <oerjan> !addinterp prefixes sh echo 'Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !'
22:30:07 <fungot> oerjan: what?! are you read? i still don't see how the varargs thing complicates typing much more than i do. i just don't enjoy writing in linj ( i did not
22:30:08 <EgoBot> Interpreter prefixes installed.
22:30:19 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
22:30:23 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
22:30:26 <EgoBot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
22:47:08 -!- variable has changed nick to tout.
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22:54:43 <tswett> So I thought of something.
22:55:14 <tswett> Applications often have things that are kind of like program flow, but aren't actually implemented as program flow.
22:56:30 <tswett> Like, suppose you have an application with a screen system, where screens form a tree, and each screen can only be accessed by entering it from the parent screen.
22:57:32 <tswett> You could, in theory, implement each screen as a subroutine, such that a screen is displayed when and only when that subroutine is running. Then the flow control correctly determines the order that screens can be accessed.
22:58:45 <boily> some kind of non-linear continuation-chained subroutines?
22:59:36 <tswett> They wouldn't need to be continuation-chained or anything, because the screens can only be accessed in, like, a subroutine-like way.
22:59:56 <tswett> Anyway. Alternatively, you could just keep the current screen in a variable, and have a single event loop that just processes input differently depending on what screen you happen to be on.
23:00:15 <boily> that feels very continuaty.
23:00:39 <tswett> So you're sort of simulating program control by just keeping the "execution pointer" in a variable and dealing with everything manually.
23:00:55 <tswett> Which makes me wonder if you could make a programming language where program flow isn't provided.
23:02:09 <tswett> So you can't just say "do A and then do B"; you have to somehow manually arrange things such that B is executed after A is executed.
23:07:18 <tswett> Suppose I want to write an interpreter for an ordinary imperative language.
23:08:54 <tswett> The interpreter is probably going to have a variable containing the inner program's stack, and there's going to be an indefinite loop that repeatedly looks at the stack, looks up the next instruction, executes it, and updates the stack accordingly.
23:13:04 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:13:39 <tswett> If you had a language without any built-in flow control, perhaps you'd have to simulate it by doing something like what this interpreter has to do.
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23:15:34 <tswett> So I was thinking maybe such a language would just have "whenever" statements. Whenever X, do Y. You can't say "whenever X, do Y and then do Z"; you have to just say "whenever X, do Y" and make Y be something that causes Z to execute later down the line.
23:15:41 <tswett> I was thinking that maybe the language could be called Whenever.
23:15:53 <tswett> But apparently there's already a language called Whenever.
23:16:49 <tswett> Which, sure enough, doesn't have control flow.
23:17:43 <boily> but your whenever sounds more whenevy than whenever. maybe you should call it Whenevest?
23:20:20 <oerjan> whenever's defer statement seems like whenever statements, except with the opposite test
23:22:09 <tswett> Hm. So every language is supposed to be a subset of Haskell, right?
23:23:19 <tswett> E has a couple of interesting features. One of them is the "eventual send" primitive, which essentially lets you queue up an action to be performed later.
23:23:29 <tswett> The other is the way references work.
23:23:53 <tswett> In E, when you queue up an action, you immediately get a reference to the result of the action, even though the action hasn't been performed yet.
23:25:02 <tswett> When queueing up an action, you can use one of these "delayed references" the same way you could use any other reference.
23:25:05 <oerjan> i suppose you could do that in haskell with some threads and unsafeInterleaveIO
23:25:59 <oerjan> well it wouldn't be pure
23:26:02 <tswett> In E, these references are transparent, but no power is lost if you use a subset of E where all of these references must be explicitly waited upon.
23:26:14 <tswett> You can say "when reference X resolves, perform action Y".
23:26:27 <tswett> Naturally, you immediately get a reference to the result of action Y, even though it hasn't been performed yet.
23:26:51 <tswett> So I think all this adds up to exactly one special thing you can do in E.
23:27:17 <tswett> Namely: queue up a function call with some "delayed references" as arguments and receive a "delayed reference" to the result of the function.
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23:39:01 <tswett> Well, okay, there's one more interesting feature of E. References can refer to objects on other machines.
23:39:21 <Phantom_Hoover> i am amazed at how many people trying to explain closures on the internet think they're the same as anonymous functions
23:42:21 <tswett> Ignoring the thing about objects on other machines, I think this is what these "delayed references" come down to:
23:42:32 <pikhq> To be fair, few languages have anonymous functions that don't close.
23:42:36 <tswett> type Eventually a; instance Monad Eventually; queueUp :: Eventually (IO a) -> IO (Eventually a)
23:44:27 <tswett> Well, that doesn't quite do it. In E, if you queue up a job to be performed, it is guaranteed that the job will not begin until the current job has ended.
23:44:39 <tswett> Haskell doesn't have a notion of "the current job".
23:47:29 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, but they all have nonymous functions that close too
23:48:22 <tswett> I suppose you could just add another function, jobDone :: IO a, which ends the current job and grabs one from the queue.
23:48:46 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i think that would be "onymous"
23:49:07 <oerjan> no, the greek word for name is "onyma"
23:49:25 <pikhq> I think the English word here would be "denominated" actually.
23:49:30 <tswett> That explains why the English word for "anonymous" isn't "annymous" or something.
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00:07:24 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/28t6he/not_sure_i_have_high_hopes_for_this_class/
00:07:30 <Sgeo> Someone should make a C+ esolang
00:10:03 <Bike> maaaaan i'd be so bored in that curriculum
00:12:04 <boily> ah, the joy of never having classes no more...
00:12:17 <boily> (yes. I do still have nightmares from time to time about school.)
00:13:03 <Bike> shoulda taken a cooler major, like kinesthesiology
00:17:20 -!- ^v has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:17:40 -!- ^v has joined.
00:18:35 <tswett> Sgeo: like a cross between C and C++ or something?
00:19:22 <Sgeo> Yes. Omitting features that other C++ features rely on to make sense
00:22:20 <elliott> tswett: Eventually = MVar?
00:23:33 <tswett> elliott: you could probably implement Eventually with MVar.
00:23:51 <tswett> I'm pretty sure Haskell doesn't guarantee that only one thread will be executing at a time.
00:28:38 -!- Patashu has joined.
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00:32:15 <Sgeo> http://blog.izs.me/post/59142742143/designing-apis-for-asynchrony
00:39:42 <tswett> A program consists of an array containing movable objects and stationary objects. Execution consists of repeatedly selecting an arbitrary movable object and direction, and moving it as far as it will go in that direction.
00:40:14 <tswett> Without overlapping any other objects.
00:41:37 -!- shikhout has joined.
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00:44:33 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:45:07 <oerjan> `bienvenido yonathan135
00:45:07 <HackEgo> yonathan135: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
00:45:14 -!- yonathan135 has left.
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00:55:10 -!- Bike has joined.
00:56:13 -!- Patashu_ has changed nick to Patashu.
00:56:38 <boily> oerjan: that may be the cleanest hispanophone-handling I ever saw in this chännel.
00:58:02 <tswett> Why is the command "bienvenido", like "having been welcomed"?
00:58:42 <tswett> Probably should be "bienvenir", like "to welcome", aye?
00:58:58 <boily> `bienvenue moi-même
00:58:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenue: not found
00:59:10 <boily> hm. weird. where was the French version again?
00:59:58 <tswett> I should promote Lepwick by creating an IRC bot that executes Unix commands in some account.
01:00:07 <boily> tswett: it's the same in French. you wish to somebody that they had a nice well come. (or something probably more grammatical than that.)
01:00:28 <boily> «je vous souhaite la bienvenue» → “I wish to you that you came well”
01:00:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:00:56 <tswett> boily: well, yeah, you say "bienvenido" to a person in order to welcome them.
01:01:22 <tswett> But if you wanted to order someone else to welcome someone, you wouldn't say "bienvenido" to the orderee.
01:01:38 <tswett> Nor would you say "bienvenir", for that matter. Unless the orderee is a computer.
01:02:03 <tswett> So what's the latest best IRC bot?
01:03:39 -!- barrucadu has changed nick to barruca2.
01:03:47 -!- barruca2 has changed nick to barrucadu.
01:04:30 -!- barrucadu has changed nick to barruca2.
01:04:38 -!- barruca2 has changed nick to barrucadu.
01:06:40 <tswett> Whoops, I destroyed littlesyl's sudoers database.
01:07:43 <tswett> Fortunately, I can magically undestroy it.
01:11:38 -!- mhi^ has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
01:14:10 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WELLCAMED CHICKEN).
01:14:12 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:16:16 <HackEgo> wisdom/welcome \ wisdom/welcome.bork \ wisdom/welcome.es \ wisdom/welcome.fi
01:16:35 <oerjan> `` grep bienvenu wisdom/*
01:16:35 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/d: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory
01:16:49 <oerjan> seems like we don't have any
01:17:05 <tswett> So, what's something you can't do in HackEgo?
01:17:12 <oerjan> `` grep -i bien wisdom/*
01:17:14 <HackEgo> wisdom/bienvenue:Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.) \ grep: wisdom/d: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a di
01:17:17 <tswett> Besides resolving DNS?
01:22:10 <Bike> deepnds on what you mean by "in"
01:22:13 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
01:22:29 <Bike> can't make it spam itself to death
01:22:57 -!- lepwick has joined.
01:23:09 <tswett> Like, something you might hope to be able to do with a Unix shell that you can't do with HackEgo.
01:23:18 -!- lepwick has quit (Client Quit).
01:23:34 <oerjan> tswett: vim is probably pretty awkward to use hth
01:24:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: irssi: not found
01:24:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: emacs: not found
01:25:19 <HackEgo> Vim: Warning: Output is not to a terminal \ [1;24r[?25h[?8c[?25h[?0c[27m[24m[0m[H[J[?25l[?1c[2;1H[1m[34m~ [3;1H~ [4;1H~
01:26:27 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
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01:37:54 <oerjan> huh i got a blue screen of death on windows 8
01:39:24 <oerjan> grumble, now i need to find my place again in the shtetl-optimized comment tabs
01:40:39 -!- ^v has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:40:48 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: leaving).
01:41:28 <oerjan> what, his page numbers aren't chronological
01:45:26 -!- lepwick has joined.
01:45:39 <tswett> Maybe I should figure out what lepwick's command prefix is.
01:46:10 <tswett> Lepwick isn't, but lepwick is.
01:46:14 <oerjan> i almost `relcomed it last time it was
01:46:48 <HackEgo> lepwick: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:46:48 <lepwick> [ 404 Not Found ] - esolangs.org
01:47:34 <lepwick> NameError: global name 'subprocess' is not defined (file "/home/ircbot/.willie/modules/unix.py", line 6, in unix)
01:47:42 -!- lepwick has quit (Client Quit).
01:48:06 <MDude> More like [ 404 Not Found ] - http://esolangs.org/%3E
01:48:26 -!- lepwick has joined.
01:49:02 -!- ^v has joined.
01:49:18 -!- lepwick has quit (Client Quit).
01:49:51 <tswett> Forgot to import subprocess.
01:50:53 <tswett> I thought lepwick was no longer running.
01:50:57 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.).
01:50:57 <tswett> According to ps, lepwick is indeed no longer running.
01:51:33 -!- Sgeo has joined.
01:52:26 <tswett> That took a really long time to quit.
01:52:52 <tswett> lepwick: how are you still here? The process isn't running any more!
01:54:43 <oerjan> lepwick isn't here hth
01:55:18 -!- tswett has changed nick to lepwick.
01:55:37 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:55:48 -!- coppro has joined.
01:55:53 <oerjan> either you are really lagged or you aren't responding to pings hth
01:55:59 -!- shikhout has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
01:58:02 <lepwick> oerjan: I guess I am really lagged.
01:58:05 <lepwick> I'm so lagged that I haven't gotten your message saying that I'm really lagged.
01:58:29 <oerjan> and _still_ hasn't responded to my pings.
01:58:42 -!- lepwick has quit (Quit: lepwick).
01:58:56 -!- tswett has joined.
01:59:42 <tswett> Well, gee, it's traveling HALFWAY AROUND THE WORLD.
01:59:48 -!- tswett has changed nick to lepwick.
02:00:11 -!- lepwick has changed nick to tswett.
02:00:59 -!- lepwick has joined.
02:01:47 <tswett> .unix echo -e 'blah\nblah\nblah'
02:02:38 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:03:16 <lepwick> CalledProcessError: Command '['sudo', '-u', 'ircbotbox', 'bash', '-c', u'false']' returned non-zero exit status 1 (file "/usr/lib/python2.7/subprocess.py", line 573, in check_output)
02:06:05 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:06:12 -!- coppro has joined.
02:06:25 -!- wagner has joined.
02:08:02 <tswett> .unix sed 's/lepwick/lepwick2/' /home/ircbot/.willie/default.cfg stupidwilliecfg
02:08:02 <lepwick> CalledProcessError: Command '['sudo', '-u', 'ircbotbox', 'bash', '-c', u"sed 's/lepwick/lepwick2/' /home/ircbot/.willie/default.cfg stupidwilliecfg"]' returned non-zero exit status 2 (file "/usr/lib/python2.7/subprocess.py", line 573, in check_output)
02:08:35 -!- drdanmaku has joined.
02:08:38 <tswett> .unix sed 's/member:lepwick/lepwick2/' /home/ircbot/.willie/default.cfg stupidwilliecfg 2>&1; true
02:08:39 <lepwick> sed: can't read stupidwilliecfg: No such file or directory[core]nick = lepwickhost = irc.freenode.netuse_ssl = Falseport = 6667owner = tswettchannels = #esotericexclude = url[db]userdb_type = sqliteuserdb_file = /home/ircbot/userdb.sqlite
02:08:53 <elliott> wagner: hi! no bother intended if not, but are you hagb4rd? (just a persistent problem with a ban-evading user who uses your ISP)
02:09:03 <elliott> tswett: okay, HackEgo is here, but ignored me
02:11:16 <wagner> aka karl kochj? i think he's dead.. suicide.
02:12:25 <elliott> wagner: have you ever been banned here before, under another name?
02:13:47 <wagner> do you know karl koch? a famous german hacker in the 80s
02:14:43 <elliott> huh. okay, I find that interesting, since the only person to use your ISP in here in many, many months is him, and he's also evaded his ban with webchat before on the IP range 77.11.*. you also type like him and act like him
02:14:51 <HackEgo> wagner: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:14:57 <elliott> I don't mean to fuss you if you are truly someone else, but I'm sure you can see how that looks pretty suspicious in isolation :)
02:16:12 <tswett> .unix PYTHONPATH=/home/ircbot/lib/python /home/ircbot/bin/willie -d -c /home/ircbotbox/stupidwillie.cfg
02:18:12 <lepwick> CalledProcessError: Command '['sudo', '-u', 'ircbotbox', 'bash', '-c', u'rm -rf ~']' returned non-zero exit status 1 (file "/usr/lib/python2.7/subprocess.py", line 573, in check_output)
02:19:02 <tswett> .unix rm -rf /home/ircbotbox/*
02:22:06 <wagner> elliott: he used to say hi too? :) well..probably same ISP. and webchat is the only web-client i know working with freenode..isn't it?
02:23:38 <elliott> I'll give you the benefit of the doubt :) (but in case you are him, I think it's a good sign you don't know what tells I'm going by!)
02:24:59 <wagner> yes, i'm not sure if i want to stay by myself. i give you the benefit of not knowing if i like it here ;)
02:26:33 <tswett> `run sleep 300; echo hi
02:26:36 <tswett> .unix sleep 300; echo hi
02:26:54 <elliott> wagner: sorry for the poor welcome :)
02:27:16 <tswett> See? This is why lepwick is superior.
02:28:23 <tswett> I don't think there's any time limit on computations.
02:31:22 <tswett> I'm on the edge of my seat.
02:32:16 <tswett> .unix sleep 200000; echo 'hi everyone :)'
02:32:21 <tswett> I'm not on the edge of my seat for this one.
02:32:53 <tswett> Note that anyone can interact with the process, kill it, whatever. Isn't that awesome.
02:40:05 -!- lollo64it has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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02:43:40 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
02:45:27 <oerjan> .unix echo are you multitasking
02:50:22 <MDude> And now I try to get a bot to repsond to another one again, since there's a new one.
02:50:57 <MDude> .unix sleep 10; echo hi fungot
02:50:57 <fungot> MDude: it logs the date and time every time you cast the result of the
02:51:07 <fungot> lepwick: really? why not some other writer? sn fnord fnord /usr/ lib... so i could provide.
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02:53:58 <oerjan> by tradition you're supposed to make a bot loop hth
02:55:57 <oerjan> i see how to do it but i'm overqualified
02:56:53 <zzo38> To avoid bot loop you can make it detect overuse and reply using a NOTICE instead of PRIVMSG in such a case, which therefore exits the loop.
02:57:12 <oerjan> zzo38: we're not trying to avoid it hth
02:58:14 <oerjan> hint: fungot has a convenient ^echo command.
02:58:14 <fungot> oerjan: it could be, with directsound or normal wave out... something like ( apply f
03:02:05 <MDude> Well to avoid the loop being avoided, you could take advantage of delays.
03:03:30 <MDude> Now I know I could say .unix sleep 10; echo ^echo whatever
03:04:18 <MDude> But for it to be unending I'll need to figure out how to duplicate and concatinate in a one liner.
03:04:22 <zzo38> Actually there are ways to still cause it be avoided, depending how much the delay is. For example you can probably avoid loop being avoided in such way by doubling the delay each time.
03:04:43 <oerjan> MDude: second hint: ^echo doesn't do what you think it does (unless you already know about it)
03:05:00 <MDude> Probably not, I'll ahve to test it.
03:05:12 -!- Bike has joined.
03:08:13 <MDude> ^echo .unix sleep 60; echo ^echo
03:08:14 <fungot> .unix sleep 60; echo ^echo .unix sleep 60; echo ^echo
03:08:36 <oerjan> oops i think that's broken
03:08:37 <MDude> Now to wait a minute and see how that goes.
03:09:14 <fungot> .unix sleep 60^echo .unix sleep 60^echo
03:09:17 <lepwick> CalledProcessError: Command '['sudo', '-u', 'ircbotbox', 'bash', '-c', u'sleep 60^echo .unix sleep 60^echo']' returned non-zero exit status 1 (file "/usr/lib/python2.7/subprocess.py", line 573, in check_output)
03:10:23 <oerjan> hm that wasn't what i thought would be wrong.
03:10:36 <MDude> To the power of echo?
03:11:31 <oerjan> stupid ; is interpreted by lepwick instead of passed on to fungot
03:11:32 <fungot> oerjan: but i dont have the high level
03:12:24 <oerjan> while the extra space didn't matter because it's being parsed into words anyway
03:13:18 <oerjan> it would probably work without the sleep >:)
03:13:56 <MDude> I guess only one way to find out?
03:14:01 <Quintopia> like ^echo .unix echo ^echo or some such?
03:14:27 <nooodl> ^echo .unix echo ^echo
03:14:27 <fungot> .unix echo ^echo .unix echo ^echo
03:14:27 <fungot> .unix echo ^echo .unix echo ^echo
03:14:28 <fungot> .unix echo ^echo .unix echo ^echo
03:14:29 <fungot> .unix echo ^echo .unix echo ^echo
03:14:29 <fungot> .unix echo ^echo .unix echo ^echo
03:14:30 <fungot> .unix echo ^echo .unix echo ^echo
03:14:31 <fungot> .unix echo ^echo .unix echo ^echo
03:14:32 <fungot> .unix echo ^echo .unix echo ^echo
03:14:33 <fungot> .unix echo ^echo .unix echo ^echo
03:14:33 <fungot> .unix echo ^echo .unix echo ^echo
03:14:34 <fungot> .unix echo ^echo .unix echo ^echo
03:14:35 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +q *!*@ec2-54-83-10-153.compute-1.amazonaws.com.
03:15:04 <nooodl> that's: a good way to test
03:15:29 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -q *!*@ec2-54-83-10-153.compute-1.amazonaws.com.
03:15:39 <Quintopia> whose idea was it to make fungot's echo a potential y-combinator?
03:15:39 <fungot> Quintopia: isn't it fnord in haskell. um... that seemo person doesn't seem particularly censored to me either
03:16:02 <oerjan> Quintopia: well it's just stupid for an echo _not_ to repeat things, right?
03:16:31 <Quintopia> oerjan: if it's going to repeat them, it should repeat them on separate lines and in a much smaller font
03:16:38 <zzo38> You should really just make it detect a possible loop and reply using NOTICE if such a thing seems likely, when writing such IRC bot program.
03:16:45 <nooodl> fr: echo command that repeats the final word... word... word...
03:16:51 <zzo38> Furthermore, make it to never reply to any NOTICE.
03:16:57 <Quintopia> zzo38: good idea. oh wait, rice's theorem
03:17:20 <tswett> So wait, why'd lepwick stop responding.
03:17:24 <Bike> well, you could just cut messages beginning in punctuation.
03:17:29 <oerjan> Quintopia: fungot's commands cannot do newlines
03:17:29 <fungot> oerjan: yeah it is. it being pleasant mitigates the effect somewhat. and i don't
03:18:19 <tswett> You totally should have come up with a .unix command that would kill the offending echo.
03:18:23 <Bike> The Man censoring us
03:18:26 <Quintopia> elliott: in a concatenative language, what's the difference?
03:18:39 <elliott> the same as in a non-concatenative language?
03:18:41 <Bike> unfair randomizer
03:19:22 <tswett> For some reason my client doesn't show the +q.
03:19:29 <zzo38> Quintopia: I know about Rice's theorem, but you only have to guess, not to be perfect, and I have some ideas about how to make such a guess, in several ways. In such ways, it will be the case such that doubling the delay every time is not detected by this algorithm, but that will slow it down sufficiently anyways and is not such a problem (if it is, a bot can be quit and reconnect, +q, or whatever)
03:19:35 <MDude> If you wanted, you could also make each response longer than tha last.
03:19:47 <MDude> Until some presumable characte r length is reached.
03:19:58 <tswett> Is fungot in any other channels?
03:19:59 <fungot> tswett: for c there is a linux on the newer computers, solaris just runs on the whole thing
03:20:12 <oerjan> the most annoying thing about the botloops here is that they make people start blabbering about NOTICE.
03:20:25 <MDude> I should write down more ideas somewhere.
03:20:33 <Bike> oerjan: see, if we had the bots issue a NOTICE NOTICE, we'd be able to avoid that
03:21:01 <MDude> They sould issue SUPs instead.
03:21:13 <MDude> Like a NOTICE, but they say SUP instead.
03:21:28 <zzo38> I think SUP is not a valid IRC command.
03:22:06 <oerjan> tswett: not that i know of
03:22:44 <MDude> I don't know all the IRC commands, and thought you just means lines starting with the word NOTICE in all caps.
03:23:30 <tswett> The NOTICE command is another way of sending messages to a channel. Some IRC clients misinterpret NOTICEs as being important.
03:23:32 <zzo38> No, I mean a message sent to the channel using NOTICE instead of PRIVMSG if the algorithm determines it likely that a botloop would be caused.
03:24:03 <zzo38> NOTICE is also used for replying to client queries.
03:24:26 <tswett> The intended use is that automatic responses are supposed to be NOTICEs, and an automatic response is never supposed to be generated to a NOTICE.
03:24:37 <MDude> According to Wikipedia, NOTICE works similarly to PRIVMSG, except automatic replies must never be sent in reply to NOTICE messages.
03:24:53 <zzo38> MDude: Yes, and this is exactly what I am suggesting, in fact.
03:24:56 <Bike> yeah, the idea is that bots could use notices.
03:24:59 <Bike> but nobody does that.
03:25:04 <tswett> We'll say that a bot should only respond to a message that's repeated twice.
03:25:16 <tswett> So that bot loops decay exponentially.
03:25:22 <elliott> I'm going to start kicking people if my IRC workspace keeps going red.
03:25:42 <tswett> Switch clients hth, bro?
03:25:49 <zzo38> I am suggesting that if you do not want to use notices all the time, you can make it decide by using such thing.
03:25:58 <Bike> is there a way to ban anybody who says hth
03:26:00 <elliott> I'm also going to start kicking people if they say things like "hth, bro?" at me.
03:26:16 <oerjan> even irssi makes notices more annoying than privmsg in channel :(
03:26:29 <zzo38> oerjan: Can't you configure that somehow?
03:26:45 <MDude> Is there something like notices that gets less attention than notices?
03:26:49 <zzo38> At least the IRC client I use, does not do any annoying/stupid things like that.
03:26:52 <shachaf> elliott: /set beep_msg_level to disable notices.
03:26:53 <MDude> Maybe announements.
03:27:09 <oerjan> zzo38: probably. but requiring _everyone_ to do that will get you hated.
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03:28:43 <MDude> I don't think going red every time an automated message is sent the way the protocol was designed to have it sent is the best design for a client.
03:28:47 <zzo38> Well, I can write just as well on a IRC channel, please don't make any bot respond to any command or event on the IRC using the PRIVMSG command; please use NOTICE instead, and don't ever reply to a NOTICE automatically.
03:29:21 <zzo38> In such a channel most bots are not allowed until they are being fixed, of course!!
03:29:38 <oerjan> unfortunately we haven't yet invented time machines to go back in time and put horse heads in the beds of bad irc client programmers.
03:29:54 <oerjan> when we do, all this will have been fixed hth
03:31:54 <Sgeo> Are bots allowed to respond to NOTICEs containing profanity?
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03:32:07 <zzo38> I think I have been told also once that some features of my IRC client are more accurate than those of other clients, such as being able to respond to messages embedded inside of another message. <CTCP>ACTION (like this one)<CTCP>
03:32:14 <Sgeo> Or is that a loophole against anti-profanity bots in the interest of blocking botloops
03:32:20 <zzo38> Sgeo: Not with another message.
03:32:42 <tswett> They're allowed to respond to any NOTICEs at all.
03:32:47 <zzo38> If they wish to have a bot to avoid profanity (although I do not think this is a good idea at all!), just make it KICK without posting any other kind of message.
03:33:20 <zzo38> And of course it can still *log* notices and perform statistics on them, just not reply directly to them using a PRIVMSG, NOTICE, or similar.
03:34:07 <zzo38> How does my "(like this one)" message appears in your IRC clients? What if it is a command other than ACTION, though?
03:34:29 <tswett> zzo38: that message to me looks like it ends in "message. ACTION (like this one)"
03:35:10 <Sgeo> I saw something similar to tswett but there was a weird character in front and a weird character behind it
03:35:13 <zzo38> tswett: Are there any colors or control-symbols displayed? There should be at least such thing
03:35:30 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, what "weird character" is OK
03:35:44 <Sgeo> ␁ in front ␁ behind
03:35:50 <Sgeo> I have no idea how that will display to others
03:36:32 <zzo38> <CTCP>ACTION Does this message display differently to you?<CTCP> Here is another sentence afterward, does it affect it too?
03:36:39 <Sgeo> See same weird character
03:36:52 <Sgeo> Also, http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2014-06-23 shows my copy/pasted version of the character, but not in your message
03:37:13 <Sgeo> glogbot sees that most recent message of yours as an ACTION
03:37:21 <tswett> zzo38: nope, no control symbols or colors or anything.
03:37:22 <Sgeo> With the second cut off
03:37:37 <tswett> zzo38: then your second message displayed all as one emote.
03:37:56 <zzo38> Do you mean the second sentence? I posted two sentences, one inside of the ACTION block and one outside.
03:38:12 <tswett> "zzo38 Does this message display differently to you? Here is another sentence afterward, does it affect it too"
03:40:05 <zzo38> I think once someone tried sending a TIME request or something like that to the channel inside of the middle of another message, and mine is the only one that responded; I think the specification actually specifies that it is supposed to be allowed in the middle of other messages.
03:41:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Slide]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39893 * 107.5.152.253 * (+1149) Created page with "'''Slide''' is an esoteric programming language created by Tanner Swett in 2014. A Slide program consists of a two-dimensional array of spaces, periods, and lowercase English..."
03:42:37 <zzo38> I also think that other IRC clients do not do syntax highlighting, isn't it?
03:43:00 <Bike> syntax for what, natural langauge?
03:43:29 <tswett> Someone prove my language Turing complete thanks.
03:43:30 <Bike> syntax for what, natural language?
03:44:24 <zzo38> No, it syntax highlight the IRC. For example it display ":Bike!~Glossina@71-222-123-162.ptld.qwest.net" in cyan, "PRIVMSG" in white, "#esoteric" in gray, the colon afterward in gray, and "syntax for what, natural langauge?" in blue.
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03:44:46 <Sgeo> Most IRC clients hide that stuff
03:44:54 <tswett> Isn't there that RawIRC client that does in fact syntax highlight the IRC?
03:44:58 <Bike> you have a client that shows you the raw message, huh
03:45:35 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, I have.
03:45:35 <zzo38> I think it is not useful to hide that kinds of stuff
03:45:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ds84182 * New user account
03:46:17 <zzo38> tswett: Maybe, but this is a different one, not RawIRC.
03:46:23 <tswett> I don't need to see "PRIVMSG #esoteric :" on every PRIVMSG sent to #esoteric to know that it's a PRIVMSG sent to #esoteric.
03:47:30 <zzo38> It still is not perfect; for example, there are no options to open additional windows and to redirect messages to other windows. There are a few other things missing too, but most of it is complete.
03:49:08 <zzo38> Commands that are typed in also use the same syntax highlighting, including client commands with a slash in front. Also I have shortcut, if no command is typed and the first key is a space-bar, it automatically fill in "PRIVMSG" and a channel and colon.
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03:49:38 <zzo38> In my experience, this way better.
03:51:14 <nooodl> tswett: i don't know, but one thing i can prove is: you don't need the spaces
03:52:36 <tswett> I assume that by spaces you mean barriers rather than empty spaces?
03:52:49 <nooodl> proof being: "zooming" all of your objects by a factor 3 obviously results in an equivalent one, and ' ' can then map to 'aaa\naba\naaa'
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03:54:25 <tswett> So, it's easy enough to create something that can move back and forth.
03:54:58 <tswett> Can you make a spaceship? A pattern that moves forever, but only in one direction?
03:57:19 <tswett> Can you make logic gates in any way?
03:59:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39894 * Ds84182 * (+602) Created page with "Xihcute is a esolanguage created by ds84182. It is self modifying, stack based, and most likely turning complete. ==Operators== {| class="wikitable" |- ! Name !! Description |..."
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04:01:38 <Bike> It actually worked?
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04:01:53 <tswett> I think it actually worked.
04:03:34 <tswett> It worked so well that I can't SSH into the host.
04:04:40 <nooodl> hm. how do you prove a language *isn't* turing complete when you can't cheat by pointing out some "finity" limitation it runs into
04:04:55 <tswett> Solve its halting problem.
04:05:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39895&oldid=39894 * Ds84182 * (+578) Added more of Xihcutes instructions from it's working interpreter
04:05:38 <Sgeo_> How many languages have solved halting problems that the solution is NOT 'always halts' or 'never halts'?
04:06:18 <tswett> Yup, that forkbomb was super effective.
04:06:49 <tswett> I wonder what's the shortest /// program that outputs infinitely much stuff.
04:07:21 <tswett> I don't think one shorter than about a hundred characters has been found.
04:07:38 <nooodl> Sgeo_: take some language L with halting problem solution 'never halts'. define a language L' that halts for only one program p which is not in L, and otherwise behaves exactly like L
04:08:41 <Sgeo_> How many such languages that were not designed to have "trivial" (whatever that means) answers?
04:09:09 <tswett> Aren't most languages pretty clearly designed to have some programs that halt and some that don't?
04:09:11 <nooodl> i think that sadly depends on: whatever that means
04:09:34 <tswett> I wonder if it's possible to abuse the specification of Proce and make it do digital computation.
04:10:16 <Sgeo_> SQL isn't TC, is it? Is it trivially halting?
04:11:43 <oerjan> Sgeo_: the 0x29A functional fragment was one i solved the halting problem for, without being either.
04:13:55 <Sgeo_> I went to refresh, page rendered, pressed stop
04:14:36 <oerjan> ah right Subtle Cough was the other one.
04:14:47 <oerjan> slightly more trivial.
04:15:05 <oerjan> (only three cases to check)
04:15:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39896&oldid=39895 * Ds84182 * (+371)
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04:33:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39897&oldid=39896 * Ds84182 * (+149)
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04:39:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39898&oldid=39897 * Ds84182 * (+138)
04:42:48 <tswett> Yeah, you can obviously make digital logic gates in Proce.
04:43:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39899&oldid=39898 * Ds84182 * (+366) Added a length independent quine
04:49:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39900&oldid=39899 * Ds84182 * (+9) Change "Quine" to "Cheating Quine", because my method is cheating...
04:50:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Proce]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39901&oldid=32990 * 107.5.152.253 * (+248) Nerf by limiting slew rate
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04:51:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39902&oldid=39900 * Ds84182 * (+70)
04:52:19 <zzo38> Sgeo_: SQL is now TC, due to a WITH command.
04:57:09 <tswett> Whelp, Funciton is my favorite esolang at the moment.
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05:59:23 <Sgeo_> I want to add 'legal, winning, and not fun' to oerjan's wisdom
06:06:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gentzen]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39903&oldid=39892 * Zzo38 * (+270)
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06:08:32 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl.
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06:21:45 <zzo38> That is what is wrong with playing cash games. Just play a tournament style (even if there are only two players), each player starts same number of chips, and nobody wins until the other player loses all of their chips. You can bet money on winning if you want to, and it does not have to correspond to how many chips they are. Amount of money in your pocket is therefore irrelevant, except that you need to have enough to afford to pay the entry fee
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06:30:33 <password2> mmm , i should build an eso lang that runs backwards , it starts by exiting with code 0 and ends at the start
06:32:16 <zzo38> People will bet less then? I do not quite understand what you mean, although my message may have been cut off.
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06:32:47 <password2> your message end with "the entry fee"
06:33:10 <password2> they will bet less because betting now no longer changes the outcome of the game
06:33:40 <zzo38> There is something afterward: (which you have to decide before you start, and then the prize is twice the entry fee).
06:34:26 <zzo38> The entry fee is the only buy in.
06:35:43 <password2> and if you are good you would have the money to start with
06:35:58 <zzo38> You are still more likely to win if you play well by betting correct amounts of poker chips.
06:36:46 <zzo38> But that is how all poker tournaments are played; just they usually have more than two players in the tournament.
06:37:18 <zzo38> Not all have buy-in rounds.
06:37:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Sacchan]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39904&oldid=39715 * Sacchan * (+16)
06:38:15 <zzo38> However, you can play without it.
06:38:57 <zzo38> You don't get to undo a move in a chess tournament because you bribed the tournament directors, of course.
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06:41:03 <password2> meh , i really want to code that thing now
06:41:06 <zzo38> Poker games simply involve a lot more money than chess, and there are people who play at both games (some even combine them in various ways).
06:41:42 <password2> i once saw an epic poker tournement on espn
06:42:47 <password2> the tournement had something like 40 professional players that bought into the tournament and like 10 that won their place by playing online
06:43:18 <password2> I was watching the last round and this guy who won his seat made 4 people drop out in under 5 min
06:43:43 <password2> leaving him heads up against two and a pot of like $1000 000
06:49:43 <zzo38> For similar reasons as I have described above (although also other reasons), when I play at Magic: the Gathering I always prefer the Limited formats.
06:50:39 <password2> have only seen one game being played
06:51:43 <zzo38> I actually like the Magic: the Puzzling, much better than playing the game itself. Same with chess, really.
06:51:54 <zzo38> I also invented a few Pokemon card puzzles, because I like that game too.
06:54:09 <zzo38> For example, this one: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_card/puzzle.1
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07:01:27 <mroman> TBBT is getting boring.
07:02:27 <zzo38> Who is TBBT? Do you prefer BTTB, perhaps?
07:03:24 <fizzie> BTTB: Big Theory, The Bang.
07:05:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: as for M:tG, they changed http://gatherer.wizards.com/ so now I can no longer download (almost) all cards with a single large page load,
07:05:39 <b_jonas> but at least they seem to have fixed how flip cards show up
07:07:00 <b_jonas> I might eventually have to write a script to download the cards the slow way unless they fix this.
07:07:43 <zzo38> OK. Do you want the pictures or the text or both or what?
07:10:04 <shachaf> b_jonas: How did you do it before?
07:10:06 <b_jonas> at least http://www.yawgatog.com/ seems to have been able to get everything
07:10:25 <b_jonas> shachaf: you could get the text of all cards valid in Legacy with a single page load, then parse that html,
07:10:58 <b_jonas> except that the newest set was often months late to get marked as valid in Legacy in Gatherer (when it actually was) so I couldn't get the newest set rightaway
07:14:26 <shachaf> why do people play these formats with old expensive cards
07:14:31 <shachaf> why do people play this game in the first place
07:16:14 <zzo38> I recently saw someone who used mostly grayscale proxy cards, against an opponent who did the same, playing on a boat that I happened to be on.
07:16:34 <b_jonas> shachaf: it's not that I want to play legacy, it's just the easiest way in their interface to download all cards
07:16:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: grayscale proxy cards? sounds ugly
07:16:54 <shachaf> are you using advanced search?
07:17:22 <b_jonas> shachaf: dunno, I just loaded this url => http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/index.aspx?term=&Field_Name=on&Field_Rules=on&Field_Type=on&setfilter=Legacy&output=Text%20Spoiler
07:17:29 <b_jonas> in the old interface that is
07:17:34 <shachaf> you can just search for name not "ahflsjflhsf"
07:17:44 <zzo38> b_jonas: If the cards are readable then it works.
07:17:53 <b_jonas> shachaf: in the old or the new gatherer?
07:18:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, but the cards have beautiful art, and it's so much harder to recognize them without color
07:18:11 <shachaf> in either. but i'm not sure about this text spoiler thing
07:18:25 <shachaf> the best cards are banned in legacy, of course
07:19:05 <b_jonas> shachaf: the problem with the new gatherer is that I can't seem to be able to get all cards in a single page, it's forcefully paged to like ten cards per page or something,
07:19:13 <b_jonas> so I'd need a thousand page loads
07:19:18 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, but perhaps they only care the text when playing the game; I also only care the text when playing the game. Yes some cards have nice pictures (I especially like the really old ones) although it is irrelevant.
07:19:57 <b_jonas> also, have you found out where they'd hidden the list of all set FAQs? I can see links to the set FAQs only from the pages describing each set, not together
07:20:10 <shachaf> you can get http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&output=checklist&name=+![sdfaskjdfsdal]
07:20:17 <shachaf> but that doesn't have card text
07:20:19 <b_jonas> plus, they're again not releasing the comprehensive rules as plain text
07:20:29 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, I need the text, not just the names
07:21:22 <zzo38> b_jonas: Then, convert it by yourself into plain text.
07:21:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: I've seen some people train for standard with a deck where almost all cards were unmarked proxies for some other card, so it was impossible to understand from outside because I had no idea which card represented what
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07:21:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: yep, I have converted already
07:21:46 <b_jonas> I'm more bothered by gatherer
07:22:08 <b_jonas> but I'll try to watch the plus side: at least flip cards work now
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07:23:31 <zzo38> Perhaps you can make a local cache of SQL of file already copied, so that only new cards and information, you are needing to download, and then searched by SQL.
07:24:36 <zzo38> (You can also use XML instead if you prefer)
07:24:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: that's basically the same. I have to download all cards four times a year. I need to have all, not just a cache, because I want complex local searches in the full text.
07:25:16 <shachaf> kind of surprising they don't make that easily available
07:25:53 <zzo38> b_jonas: What are you using, SQL or XML or HTML or what?
07:26:24 <shachaf> b_jonas: maybe try http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Settings.aspx
07:26:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: nah, it's just a plain text thing. it's not that big, was only 25 megs at about M1023
07:26:39 <b_jonas> shachaf: ok, will check that later
07:27:07 <b_jonas> also, I'm not too worried because both http://www.yawgatog.com/ and http://magiccards.info/ seems to have the new cards available
07:27:11 <shachaf> apparently you can't actually set results per page?
07:27:17 <b_jonas> but I'd like to have an independent download
07:27:50 <b_jonas> shachaf: no big deal, I'd done big web scraping stuff before, I'm just annoyed they broke what used to work
07:29:41 <zzo38> I would like to have the SQL so that, you can write something like SELECT "SET", COUNT(*) FROM "CARDS" GROUP BY "SET"; or whatever
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07:39:01 <b_jonas> sure, once you have downloaded the stuff, you can try to fill them to a database or anything you want
08:02:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Randwork]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39905 * 178.125.27.107 * (+573) Created page with "It's a pity, but '''Randwork+''' isn't so interesting... As for me. I've made a small interpreter of this language and have noticed some unpleasant things:<br /> * Too many "H..."
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09:44:34 <Taneb> I should breakfast
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09:47:54 <slereah> I gave up my linear construct of time for lent
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09:50:51 <fizzie> It is always lent when you increment a lens by one.
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11:16:02 <Melvar> zzo38: “* | zzo38 Does this message display differently to you?” “-- | unbekannte CTCP Anfrage von zzo38: Here is another sentence afterward, does it affect it too?”
11:18:35 <fizzie> Oh, I missed a botloop and all.
11:19:11 <fizzie> This is what one gets with manually managed ignore lists.
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13:05:01 <boily> dishes washed: check. bedsheets laundering: check. bowl of cheerios: check. bodum infusing: check. I am ready to begin the day!
13:14:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:ESOSC]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39906 * GreyKnight * (+290) Created page with "== Standard [[Clunk]] == The specification for Clunk states that «The "clunk" sound must be approved by the appropriate standards body.». Probably ESOSC should give a stand..."
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13:20:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gs2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39907&oldid=39819 * Nooodl * (+918) comparison operators
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13:46:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39908&oldid=39902 * Ds84182 * (+371)
13:55:08 <Taneb> "Torpenhow Hill is an alleged hill"
13:55:14 <Taneb> How does one be an alleged hill?
13:55:47 <Taneb> "the hill may not exist."
13:57:14 <boily> http://www.the-berg.de/
13:59:16 <Taneb> boily, there's a difference between an elaborate prank and a geographical eggcorn
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14:16:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39909&oldid=39908 * Ds84182 * (+1235) Added the rest of the instructions, and add a new and more complex Hello, World
14:19:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39910&oldid=39909 * Ds84182 * (+159)
14:30:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39911&oldid=39910 * Ds84182 * (+40)
14:33:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39912&oldid=39911 * Ds84182 * (+109) Add if statement command
14:36:13 <FireFly> boily: good example of mystery-meat navigation
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14:40:13 <ais523_> boily: it's the name for a navigation system which has a bunch of unlabelled buttons, each of which takes you to a different page
14:43:50 <MDude> I don't see an actual description anywhere else, but at the same time am averse to reading anything labled "manifesto".
14:44:12 <Taneb> MDude, it's a mountain they built in Berlin to attract tourists
14:44:27 <MDude> Oh, I could ask WIkipedia.
14:44:46 <MDude> But it says the page implies it doens't exist yet?
14:44:53 <boily> the best manifesto of them all → http://www.kimmok.com/THE-MANIFESTO-MANIFESTO
14:44:59 <boily> MDude: of course it exists!
14:45:18 <MDude> I'm sure the web site does.
14:47:46 <MDude> I completely understand the overarching concept of that.
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15:08:09 <zzo38> How does "unbekannte CTCP Anfrage von zzo38" in English?
15:12:06 <ais523_> "unbekannte" is "unknown", and "CTCP" and "zzo38" are obvious
15:12:14 <ais523_> Anfrage is either "request" or "response", not sure which though
15:12:30 <ais523_> and "von" is a preposition, but I'm not quite sure which one in this context, because prepositions don't translate well between languages
15:13:11 <myname> "unknown CTCP request of zz038"
15:13:12 <Taneb> Unknown CTCP request from zzo38?
15:18:17 <zzo38> Then it is incorrectly interpreting the part outside of the CTCP request as a CTCP request instead
15:19:14 <myname> why do you do something with german irc clients if you don't speak german?
15:23:46 <fizzie> Taneb: Perhaps there's a set of specified criteria for a hill (e.g. to distinguish between lesser/greater geographical features, such as mounds and mountains), and the "alleged hill" is alleged because its hillness has not been clearly shown.
15:24:09 <Taneb> fizzie, reading the article, it's an alleged hill because nobody quite knows which hill it is
15:24:15 <Taneb> There are a lot of hills around there
15:35:38 <Taneb> Woo, I've passed my first year at uni!
15:35:50 <fizzie> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1270709547/chrono-legends-1999-a-20th-anniversary-project "uh"
15:36:20 <Bike> copyright violating kickstarters are the best kickstarters
15:36:29 <Taneb> I passed decently, too!
15:36:57 <Bike> anyway re alleged hills you should clearly cite "On Hills and Dales" by maxwell
15:37:06 <Bike> i don't actually know w hat a dale is, but he was pretty smart, so he probably could figure it out
15:37:19 <Taneb> A dale is like a valley
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17:19:41 <zzo38> Here describes some people seem to be using both LaTeX and Plain TeX: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:TeXnocrat
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17:29:14 <HackEgo> TieSoul: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:29:23 <ais523_> we have rainbow welcomes again?
17:29:40 <ais523_> first time in /ages/ I've seen one of those, as they don't show up on my other client
17:29:50 <ais523_> also, something that's bothering me al ot
17:29:56 <TieSoul> That's an amazing welcome message
17:30:03 <ais523_> that seems to have red, orange, yellow, green, indigo, violet, and magenta
17:30:29 <ais523_> I guess I'd be less concerned if it was either exactly a traditional rainbow, or further from one
17:31:05 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure it'd tricky to do closer with IRC colors.
17:31:34 <ais523_> blue is not listed in my list of colours
17:31:59 <nooodl> looks like "red, brown, yellow, lightgreen, blue, magenta, lightmagenta" to me
17:32:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39913&oldid=39912 * Ds84182 * (-85) Took out the shitty () command
17:32:31 <ais523_> nooodl: are you in a terminal, by any chance?
17:32:55 <ais523_> that's quite the customized ctcp version message
17:32:57 <nooodl> but my colours are terminal-y
17:32:59 <ais523_> also, I actually /like/ Vista :-(
17:33:00 <TieSoul> Has anyone ever made an http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eitherf*ck interpreter? It sounds really cool
17:33:24 <TieSoul> but all esolangs are gimmicky
17:33:40 <ais523_> the main issue with that language is that it has no control flow at all
17:33:43 <Bicyclidine> i forget, which newish version of windows is it everybody hates
17:33:52 <ais523_> which is a common mistake in making BF derivatives
17:33:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39914&oldid=39913 * Ds84182 * (+0) Forgive me division, I did not mean to replace you
17:34:01 <ais523_> (arguably, making BF derivatives at all is a mistake, but...)
17:34:12 <ais523_> although it's specifically the UI on 8 that sucks
17:34:19 <ais523_> the actual technology behind it is pretty solid
17:34:50 <ais523_> I found that 8 became tolerable when I removed edge gestures from the touchpad
17:34:58 <ais523_> those things activated unwantdly far too often
17:35:15 <TieSoul> I found that 8 is tolerable because I use a mouse.
17:35:16 <ais523_> TieSoul: here's one for you: without using the keyboard, how do you close a Metro application (actually close it, not just switch away)?
17:35:36 <ais523_> I know the answer, but I had to look it up, and couldn't quite believe it once I did
17:35:51 <pikhq> On a fully up-to-date Windows 8 machine, put mouse at the top of the screen to get the Metro titlebar to un-autohide. :)
17:36:04 <ais523_> it used to be called Metro but Microsoft renamed it because the Metro name got such bad press
17:36:22 <ais523_> pikhq: I never got that to work
17:36:38 <ais523_> that used to just let me snap the application to half the screen
17:36:45 <pikhq> (disclaimer, I don't have a Windows 8 install handy)
17:37:13 <password2> (disclaimer i will never have windows install handy)
17:37:14 <TieSoul> none of my apps will open 'because File Explorer is open with administrator priviledges'
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17:37:23 <zzo38> Can you tell Windows 8 to not un-autohide the Metro titlebar, or to tell it to never autohide?
17:37:46 <ais523_> zzo38: it would surprise me if you could, given how Metro programs are typically designed to be fullscreen/halfscreen only
17:38:00 <pikhq> zzo38: No, but IIRC one of the upcoming features of Windows 9 is to let you do Metro programs windowed.
17:38:06 <Taneb> ais523_, I thought they renamed Metro because it was trademarked by another company?
17:38:21 <password2> can we agree that windows 8 is just a browser?
17:38:43 <pikhq> It isn't really, it's just Win32 with random crap glued on. :)
17:38:51 <ais523_> in Windows 8, I went and uninstalled most of the Metro programs, and unpinned everything else
17:38:57 <ais523_> and then I had a usable start screen
17:39:13 <ais523_> I still prefer Unity, though, I think
17:39:30 <ais523_> I have a few specific issues with Unity's UI, and it's pretty buggy
17:39:35 <ais523_> but apart from that I really like it
17:39:40 <elliott> password2: y'know, I know windows-bashing is fashionable, and if it makes you happy then fine, but it helps if you at least try and say things that are meaningful
17:40:00 <password2> elliott, but that a catch 22 for me
17:40:29 <elliott> like saying windows 8 is just a browser sounds snappy, but you could, like, devote three seconds to thinking about what you're going to say beforehand, and decide if it makes any sense whatsoever or is just a string of words that sound like they bash windows
17:40:34 <elliott> and then only say it if it's the former
17:40:37 <password2> i don't want to try it so badly that i don't even want other people using it
17:40:48 <ais523_> elliott: I interpreted "bash windows" as "terminal emulator windows running bash"
17:41:01 <elliott> password2: okay, if you admit you are completely ignorant of it, then don't try and offer analysis and opinions presented as consensus?
17:41:06 <TieSoul> you can close them by going to the top left corner of the screen, making the whole UI there show up, then right clicking the app and clicking close.
17:41:12 <elliott> and especially don't say stuff you know has no basis in reality to convince other people not to use something
17:41:24 <password2> i still think its a glorified browser
17:41:28 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
17:41:37 -!- elliott has kicked password2 trolling after warning.
17:41:37 <ais523_> TieSoul: yep, that's actually the second method I learned
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17:41:56 <ais523_> switch to another program, then mouse to top left corner, down the left edge, then right click and close
17:42:05 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
17:42:25 <elliott> (n.b. I hate windows, this isn't me being defensive)
17:42:26 <password2> though i think a kick was over doing it
17:42:31 <ais523_> the method in the instruction manual that came with the computer was to repeat the first three steps, then drag the program to the right, then down to the bottom of the screen
17:42:48 <ais523_> I hate Windows from the software development point of view
17:43:05 <ais523_> from the point of view of a casual user, it's mostly just slightly worse than Ubuntu nowadays
17:43:08 <TieSoul> I like Windows because it's got the most support for applications and stuff.
17:43:09 <pikhq> Pity Windows doesn't have a C environment.
17:43:10 <zzo38> Still in Windows 8 all of the older Windows stuff still works: cmd.exe still exists (somehow I thought they would remove it in favor of PowerShell), WIN+R still works for the Run dialog box, ALT+F4 and ALT+TAB and that stuff still works, etc
17:43:16 <ais523_> and it has some nice features, like resizing a mounted partition
17:43:37 <pikhq> zzo38: cmd.exe is a bit more work to remove than you'd think.
17:43:39 <ais523_> PowerShell takes like 30 seconds to load, somehow
17:43:47 <ais523_> that's one good reason for cmd.exe to still work
17:43:53 <ais523_> also, they didn't want to break old shell scripts
17:44:03 <TieSoul> Also does Linux have anything that isn't a command line?
17:44:03 <pikhq> cmd.exe is also kinda architecturally required.
17:44:10 <ais523_> I've also never been able to learn PowerShell because it tries to connect to the Internet to work
17:44:18 <elliott> password2: well, when you admit that you're just saying untrue things in an attempt to get a reaction out of people to discourage them to use windows and an op warns you for it, and then you deliberately do it again without adding anything to it, that's pretty obvious provocation. since you rejoined less than 20 seconds afterwards I don't think a kick is much more of a penalty than the second warning it was intended as :p
17:44:26 <pikhq> Essentially Windows command line stuff has a "talk to cmd.exe" API.
17:44:32 <ais523_> err, connect to the Internet to download documentation
17:44:36 <elliott> I admit though, it is probably completely futile to try and make this channel more bearable to be in.
17:44:39 <pikhq> PowerShell for Windows command line stuff screen-scrapes cmd.exe.
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17:44:51 <zzo38> I like that it still has cmd.exe though, and those other stuff, so when working on a computer with Windows 8, I can still work on it
17:45:05 <ais523_> pikhq: screenscraping cmd.exe would actually be very difficult
17:45:21 <ais523_> even copy-and-paste is awkward due to the way Windows does permissions
17:45:22 <password2> the layouts that i have seen from afar reminds me the fixed position type things one would expect to see in a browser
17:45:39 <pikhq> ais523_: It's really awkward.
17:45:46 <TieSoul> also cmd.exe can't go fullscreen for some reason
17:45:47 <ais523_> elliott: I mean, I'm not certain that a screenshot wouldn't just come up completely black, if done without privilege
17:45:53 <pikhq> TieSoul: It's not a Win32 app.
17:46:08 <ais523_> TieSoul: actually, that's because the Windows terminal system is implemented in a really awkward manner
17:46:49 <Taneb> I can't remember the last time I used Windows
17:46:55 <Taneb> I think it was last friday, actually
17:47:27 <TieSoul> well, I'm perfectly fine with Windows; Mac OS X is just not for me and Linux is complicated and I'm too lazy to learn about it.
17:47:53 <maurer> TieSoul: I'm not really sure what you mean by Linux being complicated. Windows is super painful to use by comparison
17:48:00 <zzo38> I happen to think UNIX based systems work well; Mac OS X and Linux both use UNIX based stuff.
17:48:10 <zzo38> It isn't really so complicated to understand, I think
17:48:25 <TieSoul> Well, don't you have to do a LOT of command line stuff for Linux to work properly?
17:48:30 <pikhq> Depends on the distro.
17:48:48 <pikhq> That's the case for some, but that's because some people like it that way.
17:48:54 <Taneb> I think the issue with Linux is there is sooo muuuuch chooooiiiiice to set it up
17:48:59 <password2> yeah , debian requires no a little
17:49:07 <elliott> ubuntu should pretty much just work on everything with no fuss, but it's certainly different to windows.
17:49:11 <elliott> it may or may not be worth it for you to switch.
17:49:16 <Taneb> "Which distro do you want?" "OK, great, now which window manager?" etc
17:49:27 <elliott> if you're fine with windows then stick with it; some of the best programmers I know use windows
17:49:27 <ais523_> elliott: Ubuntu is a little less trivial to install as dual boot than it used to be
17:49:28 <password2> Taneb, true , the average user just freezes when they have too many choice
17:49:40 <TieSoul> Yeah, I'm going to stick with Windows
17:49:43 <int-e> Taneb: don't care as long as it isn't Ubuntu; fvwm; next question? ;-)
17:49:47 <zzo38> I try to write program for cross-platform if possible
17:49:50 <ais523_> Taneb: distro + window manager + 32/64bitness are the only three decisions that are typically made nowadays
17:49:55 <elliott> I think fvwm is more of a question than an answer.
17:49:55 <ais523_> my answer, btw: Ubuntu, Unity, 64 bit
17:49:56 <zzo38> Or for Nintendo Family Computer and run them on emulators
17:50:14 <ais523_> because I actually really like Unity
17:50:17 <TieSoul> or is there a way to get a double-boot Windows-Linux system? Or is that horribly slow?
17:50:25 <ais523_> TieSoul: you can get dual-boot, and it's not horribly slow
17:50:31 <Taneb> I currently use Ubuntu and XMonad
17:50:38 <password2> if you have lotsa cap get debian stable
17:50:45 <ais523_> the only extra time spent is at the boot screen where you decide which to boot
17:50:51 <ais523_> however, it's a little less trivial to set up than it used to be
17:50:54 <elliott> I don't recommend getting Debian stable.
17:50:56 <zzo38> If you want a fast system, get FreeDOS. It boots faster than the time the CRT takes to warm up.
17:50:56 <int-e> (I don't think there is any reason for not using a 64 bit system (at least on x86), the 32bit emulation is quite good, since the processors support it.)
17:50:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39915&oldid=39914 * Ds84182 * (+516)
17:51:06 <ais523_> and if you have any files on the Windows side you care about, you want pretty good backups before starting
17:51:07 <elliott> I also don't think any of you are doing a good job of selling Linux as not a fuss to set up.
17:51:20 <ais523_> elliott: that's because I'm trying to be honest about the issue
17:51:23 <pikhq> elliott: I'm pretty sure we're not. :)
17:51:30 <pikhq> Erm. Not trying to.
17:51:38 <ais523_> Ubuntu knows how to install itself along Windows 7, natively
17:51:42 <pikhq> Just stating that you don't have to literally use a command line for everything.
17:51:42 <elliott> ais523_: actually I was talking more to everyone other than you
17:51:43 <Bicyclidine> i would like to buy a copy of "More Tales of Pirx the Pilot"
17:51:46 <ais523_> it does not, however, know how to install itself alongside Windows 8
17:51:55 <ais523_> you can tell it how to do so, but you have to do so manually
17:51:56 <pikhq> ais523_: That's sad. :(
17:52:09 <int-e> elliott: How could I be a judge of that? I've been using Linux since 1993ish, and back then it was a bit of a pain to set up.
17:52:18 <password2> can't you install ubuntu from withing windows?
17:52:24 <int-e> All I know is that it got much simpler.
17:52:25 <elliott> ais523_: I bet it actually does know how, it just doesn't know how to handle the GPT/UEFI parts that most Windows 8 systems have?
17:52:32 <pikhq> Yeah, there is a thing for that, password2.
17:52:39 <elliott> int-e: no, everyone still installs slackware from floppies :)
17:52:41 <ais523_> pikhq: if you know how partitions work, it's pretty easy; on Windows, you shrink partitions to give free space, and turn off fast restart after shutdown; in the Linux installer, you install it to the free space
17:52:47 <ais523_> and then sometimes, you have to mess with the EFI boot order
17:52:51 <int-e> elliott: speak for yourself
17:52:51 <pikhq> ais523_: Yeah, I know.
17:52:54 <ais523_> although whether you do or not seems to be hardware dependent
17:52:54 <elliott> int-e: "ubuntu" is just a running gag.
17:53:07 <int-e> elliott: I use debootstrap from knoppix which isn't exactly the simplest way.
17:53:10 <pikhq> elliott: Which is weird, cause Ubuntu does EFI.
17:53:21 <ais523_> password2: you used to be able to install Ubuntu from within Windows, but that doesn't work on Windows 8
17:53:27 <Taneb> I am using Ubuntu until I get my SSD working
17:53:29 <Bicyclidine> i wish linux on efi didn't seem to be such a pain. i'm prety sure i fucked up upgrading syslinux
17:53:39 <Taneb> Whereupon I shall install a different distro
17:53:47 <password2> i want to see debian boot from ssd
17:53:52 <pikhq> Bicyclidine: It's a typical case of "BIOS makers test Windows only" causing issues.
17:53:53 <elliott> Bicyclidine: I recommend you just use gummiboot (and no separate boot loader) for Linux on EFI.
17:53:53 <ais523_> on my new laptop, the issue seems to be that whenever I go into the BIOS configuration screen, it sets Windows as the default boot, rather than GRUB's boot menu
17:53:53 <TieSoul> I'll just stick with Windows for now
17:54:06 <pikhq> Plus "EFI on Linux is not that solid".
17:54:24 <Bicyclidine> urgh, i'm afraid i'm gonna brick myself if i touch it
17:54:32 <int-e> (Oh, EFI, I've avoided that can of worms so far.)
17:54:33 <ais523_> in order to set the boot menu as the default, I have to override the boot order for one boot to get it into Linux (via Esc spam at startup), then use Linux to edit the boot order
17:54:44 <ais523_> luckily you don't have to configure the BIOS very often
17:54:46 <zzo38> I think you can disable UEFI on any Windows 8 computers that are x86 based, due to Microsoft's specification. (On ARM, you can't disable it, again due to Microsoft's specification.)
17:54:57 <Bicyclidine> i had ridiculous problems getting things set up to begin with. people i asked for tech support concluded that my shiny new 1 TB drive was defective
17:55:00 <ais523_> Windows 8 and Linux both prefer UEFI to BIOS
17:55:04 <elliott> zzo38: UEFI is not secure boot
17:55:05 <ais523_> Windows 7 prefers BIOS, though
17:55:12 <pikhq> zzo38: MS doesn't require *that*, it requires that you can disable secure boot.
17:55:14 <ais523_> and yeah, your comments relate to secure boot
17:55:16 <Bicyclidine> because the actual problem was, in fact, even more ridiculous
17:55:28 <ais523_> however, the vast majority of laptops also allow disabling UEFI altogether, so that you can install Windwos 7 on them
17:55:35 <elliott> anyway you can worst-case "just", like, use the CSM for BIOS backwards-compatibility
17:55:40 <elliott> I don't think anyone ships motherboards without that
17:55:46 <Bicyclidine> also all the wiki instructions involve $esp and i forget where i put $esp so i'm doomed.
17:55:49 <elliott> and it's automatic if you try and boot something that isn't UEFI
17:56:00 <Bicyclidine> er no wait, i remember. it's just a partition, i can mount it
17:56:13 <elliott> most of the UEFI problems come from when distros try to do it the native UEFI way, which is nicer than relying on the compatibility but currently more fraught for obvious reasons
17:56:14 <Bicyclidine> except that when i tried doing that mount didn't recognize the filesystem. i don't know why i'm allowed near computers
17:56:23 <pikhq> On my desktop EFI basically "just works" perfectly well. On my laptop (which doesn't do BIOS boot on its internal HD!) every now and then I need to literally pull up the EFI command line to boot it.
17:56:41 <pikhq> Thankfully that laptop actually *has* that.
17:56:52 <TieSoul> So what does Linux do better than Windows?
17:56:59 <elliott> Bicyclidine: my setup is I have the esp be /boot and I just have gummiboot set up and it all works automatically (I'm on arch)
17:57:08 <pikhq> TieSoul: Big one is flexibility.
17:57:10 <ais523_> TieSoul: it's much better for developing software on, IME
17:57:20 <Bicyclidine> i have a /boot and i... don't /think/ it's a partition, or something
17:57:22 <Taneb> TieSoul, it's a lot more configurable
17:57:29 <Taneb> ...which is where most of the issues come from, I guess
17:57:33 <ais523_> because most development environments treat Windows as a second-class citizen, and the others are Visual Studio
17:57:39 <ais523_> Bicyclidine: it's a rotated root directory
17:57:43 <elliott> flash videos being nigh-unusable is another advantage of linux :P
17:58:06 <pikhq> Even on my stupid nice box Flash doesn't work nicely. :(
17:58:08 <Bicyclidine> I actually have flash work shockingly well, i can even play games! though it still crashes every two days or so
17:58:09 <ais523_> basically, what happens is that /boot is the root directory while the system is booting; then later during the boot process, it makes another directory into / (the one with all the actual files on)
17:58:10 <password2> elliott, i have no problem with flash
17:58:23 <ais523_> and it needs to put the old root directory system somewhere, so it uses /boot
17:58:24 <elliott> do you get full AV sync in fullscreen on youtube
17:58:26 <elliott> with no tearing or anything
17:58:28 <Bicyclidine> ais523_: so is it a partition or... well, whatever
17:58:34 <int-e> TieSoul: not *forcing* you on a new desktop every 3 years.
17:58:38 <ais523_> Bicyclidine: it's a directory, but one that's the only one that's accessible during boot
17:58:42 <pikhq> elliott: When I pass the Youtube URL to mpv, sure.
17:58:43 <elliott> ais523_: that isn't how the boot process works at all
17:58:43 <int-e> (though they do try)
17:58:45 <ais523_> elliott: I may be confusing this with something else
17:58:46 <password2> I played creeper world in fullscreen mode
17:58:51 <pikhq> Not with Flash on proprietary drivers though.
17:58:55 <elliott> ais523_: /boot contains the kernels and initramfs
17:58:57 <ais523_> I know Linux has a system call to rotate the root directory though
17:59:01 <elliott> the initramfs is mounted as a, well, you know, ramfs
17:59:04 <Bicyclidine> I switched back to mesa and everything broke, so, fuck everything.
17:59:07 <int-e> ais523_: pivot_root
17:59:10 <elliott> which is then / for a while, and then pivots to
17:59:14 <elliott> but /boot itself is never /.
17:59:22 <elliott> HAVE WE MENTIONED LINUX IS SIMPLE AND EASY
17:59:23 <password2> only youtube probs i get is when it switches quality the audio jumps back like 0.2s
17:59:33 <Bicyclidine> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/driver/glamor/commit/src/glamor_fbo.c?id=1957b7d713e5408f397412d4beb1317c84ded7ce
17:59:40 <Bicyclidine> very helpful error message when your xorg dies, let me tell you
17:59:42 <zzo38> I consider best way would be, design the BIOS, it is compatible with PC BIOS (so DOS programs run, too) and includes a built-in Forth interpreter (instead of BASIC), with the Forth including functions for BIOS configuration, UEFI configuration (if applicable), terminal emulation, etc
17:59:44 <int-e> elliott: it's many parts, all simple and easy (except for the many that aren't)
17:59:45 <ais523_> I've actually been going without Flash on my new laptop, because I haven't figured out how to install it
17:59:52 <ais523_> there are clear and simple instructions that don't actually work
18:00:15 <elliott> int-e: I'm not sure I'd consider any part of a linux system simple and easy :/
18:00:20 <Bicyclidine> anyway, i'm only worrying about this because i upgraded syslinux but pacman may or may not have told me i needed to do some upgrading.
18:00:21 <elliott> the same goes for windows of course
18:00:48 <zzo38> I think this way I describe would help better; you can then program it and that kind of stuff, it is usable, even if you do not have any operating systems installed at all.
18:00:58 <Bicyclidine> i think my favorite linux problem is when my boss was setting up the computer, he did a regular shutdown in the shell and it failed, which i hadn't even realized was possible
18:01:02 <ais523_> elliott: have you seen Ubuntu Browser?
18:01:20 <elliott> ais523_: is that like windows 8
18:01:28 <ais523_> elliott: no, it's /better/
18:01:34 <elliott> what a high bar you've set
18:01:59 <int-e> elliott: well, there's the kernel itself. systemd is getting messy. who understands dbus? udev ... ok, is lots of simple parts. and then there are more or less monolithic desktop environments
18:02:04 <ais523_> it has no obvious navigation features at all, although you can expose a box with a back and forwards and address bar by clicking at the bottom of the screen
18:02:17 <elliott> int-e: you think the linux kernel is simple and easy...?
18:02:24 <ais523_> also, that menu lets you go to another screen, which lists all the tabs you have open; tabs aren't otherwise tabs, they're just simultaneously open windows
18:02:30 <ais523_> elliott: well, it is compared to the Windows kernel
18:02:30 <int-e> elliott: no I was listing parts that aren't, in my opinion.
18:02:39 <elliott> ais523_: googling suggests it's meant for mobile
18:02:45 <ais523_> this is the entire extent of its functionality
18:02:48 <int-e> elliott: sorry. I missed a negation in your statement
18:03:07 <ais523_> elliott: yeah, I actually like it though, although not for actual Web browsing
18:03:12 <ais523_> I've been using it to look at profiler output
18:03:13 <Bicyclidine> though i don't use it on my desktop, probably
18:03:22 <ais523_> I used to use Epiphany for that
18:03:25 <int-e> elliott: so then there's /bin/true, /bin/false, which are definitely easy. :)
18:03:31 <elliott> int-e: I'm not sure systemd is any more or less messy than it ever was :) (though I actually like it, because at least all the complex ugliness has some kind of cohesiveness to it now)
18:03:33 <pikhq> int-e: Not in GNU.
18:03:40 <pikhq> GNU true and false are non-conforming.
18:03:41 <ais523_> that program which removed functionality over time, and collapsed all the menus to a single menu saying "Web"
18:03:55 <ais523_> I assumed that Ubuntu Browser was just Epiphany brought to its logical conclusion
18:03:58 <elliott> Bicyclidine: everything uses dbus, so you quite likely do
18:04:00 <pikhq> elliott: I'm still quite upset about it. Though it's understandable everyone's switching.
18:04:00 <ais523_> no menus, basically no functionality
18:04:06 <pikhq> The perceived options are that or sysvinit.
18:04:11 <pikhq> And sysvinit is... sysvinit.
18:04:12 <ais523_> actually, not enough uses dbus, properly
18:04:19 <zzo38> pikhq: Did you try setting the POSIXLY_CORRECT environment variable? Does that make it conforming?
18:04:19 <int-e> > /bin/true --help
18:04:20 <int-e> Usage: /bin/true [ignored command line arguments]
18:04:20 <Bicyclidine> elliott: Oh, is that so? I thought it was still ubuntuy or whatever.
18:04:21 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘/’
18:04:28 <ais523_> I was hoping there'd be some way to find out which files were open in any given application, and which currently had focus
18:04:29 <int-e> pikhq: ironically, yes
18:04:39 <HackEgo> Usage: true [ignored command line arguments] \ or: true OPTION \ Exit with a status code indicating success. \ \ --help display this help and exit \ --version output version information and exit \ \ NOTE: your shell may have its own version of true, which usually supersedes \ the version described here. Please refer to your s
18:04:49 <ais523_> `run /bin/true --help > /dev/full
18:04:49 <HackEgo> /bin/true: write error: No space left on device
18:04:57 <ais523_> `run /bin/true --help > /dev/full; echo $?
18:04:58 <HackEgo> /bin/true: write error: No space left on device \ 1
18:05:10 <int-e> (fortunately it's a builtin in common shells)
18:05:13 <pikhq> zzo38: No, because it is incorrect to require that. :P
18:05:24 <pikhq> Also, no, that doesn't change it.
18:05:37 <ais523_> we actually found a second way to get /bin/true to return nonzero
18:05:46 <ais523_> set a precise ulimit such that it runs out of memory and segfaults
18:06:02 <ais523_> I'm unaware of any way to get false to return zero, though
18:06:33 * pikhq wonders why /bin/true even needs dynamic memory
18:06:42 <elliott> ais523_: does LD_PRELOAD count?
18:06:47 <pikhq> int main(){} // should do it
18:06:50 <elliott> pikhq: intl for --help, I'd guess
18:06:58 <zzo38> pikhq: You should put return 0 in?
18:07:08 <ais523_> elliott: I hadn't thought of that, so I'm going to say yes
18:07:09 <zzo38> Other than that it should be OK
18:07:11 <pikhq> zzo38: Nope. Implied by ISO C.
18:07:14 <int-e> elliott: neither does replacing the binary by a different one
18:07:21 <ais523_> presumably you --version and hook whatever function it uses to produce output?
18:07:29 <elliott> ais523_: something like that, yes
18:07:33 <elliott> does a clever cosmic ray bit flip count?
18:07:42 <int-e> ais523_: you can add an initialiser function to the .so
18:07:48 <ais523_> elliott: only if you do it reliably
18:08:00 <Bicyclidine> /bin/false is very insecure when run in a solar storm
18:08:06 <elliott> time to look at false's source code ~_~
18:08:07 <pikhq> ais523_: So, Firewire then.
18:08:24 <ais523_> oh gah, I forgot about DMA-over-Firewire
18:08:34 <ais523_> that has to be one of the biggest POLA violations ever
18:08:42 <Bicyclidine> the amount of chauvinism in assuming that secure programs won't be run inside an event horizon is depressing
18:09:08 <zzo38> I have seen once that a computer has a BIOS where its built-in program is a CD player program. However, I think the best thing to include as the built-in program in BIOS is a Forth interpreter, where this Forth system includes low-level system access, as well as perhaps a few other minor things such as BIOS config commands and a terminal emulator.
18:09:23 <int-e> ais523_: but it's fast!
18:09:33 <elliott> getting false to return 0 without cheating looks really hard
18:09:37 <elliott> maybe the impossible kind of really hard
18:09:51 <pikhq> zzo38: I take it you love Open Firmware?
18:09:53 <Taneb> elliott, that is the worst kind of really hard
18:09:58 <ais523_> false's help information is localized, right?
18:10:08 <elliott> but why would that ever exit with 0?
18:10:11 <ais523_> are any of the localized strings passed to printf?
18:10:26 <ais523_> if so, all we need is a malicious locale definition
18:10:26 <zzo38> pikhq: I don't think Open Firmware is PC compatible from what I know?
18:10:33 <ais523_> and we can use the printf-%n overflow exploit
18:10:36 <elliott> are we going to write a false 0day shellcode?
18:10:41 <int-e> load shellcode that consists of exit(0) ... hehe.
18:10:57 <elliott> time to email fulldisclosure
18:10:58 <pikhq> Nothing inherit about it, but yeah.
18:11:11 <ais523_> elliott: I think you need root to install the malicious translation files
18:11:17 <int-e> "local invalid exit code vulnerability"
18:11:20 <Bicyclidine> Taneb: impossible is a good kind of really hard. i mean, computer science
18:11:30 <ais523_> although if you can override the path somehow, you wouldn't
18:11:38 <ais523_> you can /definitely/ override the locale, that's a user-accessible setting
18:11:43 <Taneb> Bicyclidine, only if you can prove impossibility!
18:11:57 <Bicyclidine> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/tree/src/false.c i'm impressed
18:11:58 <ais523_> `run LC_ALL=malicious_NZ.UTF-8 /bin/false --help
18:11:59 <HackEgo> Usage: /bin/false [ignored command line arguments] \ or: /bin/false OPTION \ Exit with a status code indicating failure. \ \ --help display this help and exit \ --version output version information and exit \ \ NOTE: your shell may have its own version of false, which usually supersedes \ the version described here. Please re
18:11:59 <int-e> "The path used for finding locale data can be set using the LOCPATH environment variable."
18:12:04 <pikhq> Modern Linux does let you do a new filesystem namespace and user namespace, thus letting you do root in your own file tree. :)
18:12:41 <zzo38> That's why, make the PC Forth BIOS.
18:12:47 <Bicyclidine> Act like "true" by default; false.c overrides this.
18:12:51 <elliott> there must be /some/ way to make false exit 0 without root
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18:13:07 <elliott> maybe we should just use a local privilege escalation bug.
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18:13:19 <elliott> it's worth it, to make false exit(0).
18:13:25 <elliott> this is important and we are using our time well.
18:13:44 <ais523_> elliott: I think int-e's LOCPATH suggestion may work
18:13:57 <ais523_> this conversation actually came up in nethack4.org
18:14:08 <ais523_> I explicitly said "what if someone uses a malicious timezone definition?"
18:14:08 <elliott> where are gettext translation files even stored?
18:14:14 <elliott> are they with the locales?
18:14:14 <ais523_> but locale definition isn't gettext translations
18:14:20 <elliott> but we need gettext translations
18:14:22 <int-e> LOCPATH=123 LC_ALL=foo.UTF-8 strace -eopen /bin/false --help ====> open("123/foo.UTF-8/LC_IDENTIFICATION", O_RDONLY|O_CLOEXEC) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)
18:14:23 <ais523_> I think they're normally stored in a directory called "po"
18:14:25 <elliott> the point is to make _ return what we want
18:14:31 <Bicyclidine> is factor actually a posix thing, it seems kind of random for coreutils
18:14:44 <int-e> so the printf thing sounds like a good idea
18:15:12 <ais523_> Bicyclidine: I think it's mostly intended for primality checking
18:15:15 <pikhq> Bicyclidine: Not POSIX, but traditional.
18:15:17 <Bicyclidine> «In some variants of Unix, it is classified as a "game" more than a serious utility, and therefore documented in section 6.»
18:15:38 <elliott> okay, so $LOCPATH/$LC_MESSAGES/LC_MESSAGES/coreutils.mo
18:15:56 <elliott> is the file it looks for the translations in.
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18:16:46 <ais523_> and two of those are under user control
18:17:02 <ais523_> including where it's rooted
18:17:39 <ais523_> I guess the first step is to create a translation file consisting of a huge row of %n, to see whether it segfaults
18:17:59 <elliott> I think I'm just going to use this method to run every program from now on.
18:18:07 <elliott> why write a binary when you can use false?
18:18:15 <elliott> this is a way to get around a filesystem having noexec set
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18:18:37 <elliott> using coreutils to jump to code for you
18:18:41 <ais523_> assuming that the _ is going to the printf format string and that it doesn't sanitize out %n
18:18:50 <elliott> that seems like sort of a big deal
18:18:58 <int-e> ex falso quodlibet
18:18:58 <ais523_> actually, if _ doesn't sanitize out %n, it probably should, and that's probably a major security bug that we should report
18:19:07 <elliott> I don't think it interprets the string at all
18:19:18 <elliott> probably there should just be a localised version of printf
18:19:24 <ais523_> screw it, I'm gonna plug my laptop back in and check, even though I should be going home
18:19:27 <elliott> that processes the format string and uses gettext internally
18:20:22 <int-e> ais523_: isn't printf(_("Foo: %s Bar: %s"),"foo","bar") sort of supported?
18:20:41 <ais523_> I hope LOCPATH is at least disregarded in suid programs
18:20:49 <ais523_> you'd want to filter out %n specifically
18:20:51 <elliott> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/tree/src/true.c#n38 is the promising call here
18:21:05 <elliott> ais523_: you could translate to %s%s%s or whatever, too
18:21:14 <elliott> there's lots of nasty things you can do as a printf format string
18:21:32 <elliott> the program could be storing sensitive things
18:21:39 <elliott> and printing a diagnostic error
18:21:44 <elliott> like, "sorry, these passwords don't match"
18:21:45 <ais523_> bleh, I don't have coreutils osurce here
18:21:48 <ais523_> luckily, the network connected
18:21:50 <elliott> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/tree/src/true.c
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18:23:01 <zzo38> How to diff more than one history in PukiWiki?
18:23:33 <pikhq> It seems that indeed, it does check if the binary is SUID and changes the path lookup behavior accordingly.
18:23:38 <pikhq> That's probably for the better.
18:24:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `false: not found
18:24:21 <HackEgo> Usage: /bin/false [ignored command line arguments] \ or: /bin/false OPTION \ Exit with a status code indicating failure. \ \ --help display this help and exit \ --version output version information and exit \ \ NOTE: your shell may have its own version of false, which usually supersedes \ the version described here. Please re
18:24:27 <ais523_> Bicyclidine: very high DST offset to change the date
18:24:56 <pikhq> Bicyclidine: zoneinfo file that exploits a bug in the parser?
18:34:01 <ais523_> the make file for coreutils is broken :-(
18:34:07 <ais523_> make install builds things that make doesn't
18:34:58 <int-e> does it compile stuff or is it "just" libtool relinking everything?
18:41:20 <zzo38> Why don't they make it to change the message languages at compile-time instead?
18:42:04 <zzo38> Default setting should be English with ASCII-only, and then other one can be added later on if they want to.
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18:45:46 <ais523_> bleh, overriding the locale is harder than I thought
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18:53:06 <tswett> Slide is totally supposed to be Turing-complete.
18:54:18 <ais523_> no good: all the locale machinery respects LOCPATH, but gettext /doesn't/
18:54:21 <zzo38> tswett: Is it? Do you prove it?
18:54:25 <ais523_> it's not even looking in $LOCPATH for coreutils.mo
18:54:51 <tswett> Theorem. Slide is totally supposed to be Turing-complete. Proof.
18:55:07 <ais523_> I've been doing a bunch of stracing to make sure
18:55:19 <elliott> ais523_: that's because you don't have an LC_IDENTIFICATION file, probably
18:55:40 <ais523_> I'm using the one from the existing locale
18:55:52 <elliott> it doesn't even look for .mo at all when you set LOCPATH
18:55:56 <elliott> maybe they anticipated this
18:56:09 <elliott> I guess grepping LOCPATH over gettext would be productive
18:57:08 <ais523_> no LOCPATH anywhere in the gettext source
18:58:38 <elliott> then how is setting LOCPATH preventing it from loading coreutils.mo?
18:59:21 <ais523_> elliott: if you set LOCPATH, it makes the setlocale() call fail
18:59:28 <ais523_> unless all the things it loads are on your LOCPATH somewhere
18:59:36 <elliott> but I set it to /usr/share/locale
18:59:51 <ais523_> the trick is LOCPATH=malicious:/usr/share/locale LANG=C.UTF-8 LANGUAGE=malicious
19:01:14 <ais523_> also you need to copy the SYS_LC_MESSAGES fallback from somewhere
19:02:06 <ais523_> to the new locale definition
19:02:17 <ais523_> that gets it to actually translate the messages, but it still doesn't look in $LOCPATH
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19:08:34 <ais523_> elliott: haha, path traversal vulnerability
19:08:56 <ais523_> LANGUAGE=../../../path/to/malicious/definition /bin/false --help
19:10:03 <ais523_> the bad news: the %n appear to be output literally
19:10:34 <ais523_> also there's a SUID check on the path traversal
19:10:44 <ais523_> they disallow slashes in language names when the program's setuid
19:11:28 <ais523_> ooh, I think I can edit a different string
19:11:37 <ais523_> some of these strings are tagged as "#, c-format"
19:12:51 <ais523_> yeah, but the makefile seems to be broken, it's not updating the locale definition any more
19:22:14 <callforjudgement> de.po:12125: format specifications in 'msgid' and 'msgstr' for argument 1 are not the same
19:22:36 <callforjudgement> the difficult part is to get it to produce a bugged .gmo file for us
19:23:42 <ais523_> that's what I'm doing now :-)
19:24:20 <callforjudgement> $ LANGUAGE=../../../home/ais523/research/coreutils/prefix/share/locale/de /bin/false --help
19:25:12 <callforjudgement> come to think of it, you don't actually need coreutils source for this at all
19:25:41 <callforjudgement> unless the existing message isn't long enough for your shellcode
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19:28:42 <callforjudgement> oh wow, Ubuntu popped up an error report thing so that I can report the segfault in false
19:29:06 <callforjudgement> and wait until we have some way to get a payload into this before I report the bug
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19:45:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39916&oldid=39915 * Ds84182 * (+198)
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20:54:40 <elliott> trying to make /bin/false exit(0)
20:55:38 <Bicyclidine> It's ten minutes from there to the Pentagon, baby.
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21:01:40 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it does look like you're just looking for security holes in the internationalisation system in general though
21:02:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: look, we looked at true.c and this was the only way we could think of
21:02:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: whatever it takes
21:04:35 <Phantom_Hoover> i was just hoping there'd be some small crack in the actual interface between true.c and the locale stuff, since it's so dumb nobody would actually waste time vetting it for security
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21:04:59 <elliott> they do printf(_("..."), ...);
21:05:06 <Bicyclidine> i for one like that true and false are defined by the same file
21:05:13 <elliott> which basically lets the gettext files do things with memory
21:05:18 <elliott> because printf format strings are unsafe
21:05:27 <elliott> Bicyclidine: it's a bit sad that true is given preference though
21:05:49 <elliott> there should be a third file with the actual code
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21:05:51 <Phantom_Hoover> i had somehow got it into my head in previous mockings of true.c that it looked at argv[0]
21:05:57 <zzo38> Not only unsafe, but also somewhat not versatile enough in some cases.
21:06:09 <Bicyclidine> true. they should use compiler switches to define EXIT_STATUS
21:06:28 <pikhq> Which to be fair is not even really much of a security hole in this particular context. The environment of a program is typically assumed to be trusted on Unix.
21:06:37 <pikhq> Except for SUID stuff.
21:06:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it sets the program name to it, but doesn't seem to do anything unsafe with it
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21:07:19 <elliott> pikhq: I think being able to set an environment variable and have "if false; ...; fi" stuff execute in a shell script (with a dumb enough shell) is rather bad
21:07:24 <zzo38> pikhq: It is generally how I have deal with it too; I usually don't deal with kind of security flaw if it isn't meant to be SUID or remote data or whatever like that.
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21:07:39 <zzo38> Internet Quiz Engine avoids buffer overflows by not having any buffers!
21:07:41 <elliott> pikhq: one thing this should let you do is bypass noexec stuff
21:07:54 <pikhq> (and as gettext does actually not trust the environment in SUID, well...)
21:08:14 <pikhq> elliott: Basically my point is that this isn't any *worse* than LD_PRELOAD.
21:08:26 <elliott> LD_PRELOAD requires +x, right?
21:09:14 <Bicyclidine> i recently found out the suggested bugfixes for a particular thing for me were (a) LD_PRELOAD and (b) editing the binary
21:09:57 <pikhq> Hrm, I don't know if glibc actually requires +x.
21:10:43 <elliott> noexec isn't meant to be that useless
21:11:29 <zzo38> I don't really like gettext and I have made a simpler kind of thing which could be used for dynamic internationalization: Two things are exposed to the program, one function to load the strings from a file, and an array of string pointers. Internationalized strings in the source code are then replaced by array accesses, and the strings themself are written out to a file (similar to the pool strings in WEB).
21:12:15 <zzo38> I think you could also make it use a pre-existing string file so that existing strings keep their same ID numbers.
21:12:44 <pikhq> Seeing as +x isn't needed for libraries-in-general, it might *not*...
21:13:59 <zzo38> Do you think my way better than GNU?
21:14:16 <pikhq> (incidentally, LD_LIBRARY_PATH is searched for libraries *before* the system configured paths)
21:14:21 <elliott> I sort of think shared libraries should require +x
21:14:31 <elliott> they are executable code that gets executed
21:14:40 <elliott> you can even try and run them!
21:14:58 <pikhq> I'm also pretty sure that it's generally assumed that execute permissions aren't really a security feature.
21:15:10 <pikhq> (whether or not they *should* be is a separate issue)
21:15:38 <elliott> yeah, but noexec exists and people recommend using it for hardening. that's kinda silly because of how useless it is, but given that it exists it should probably be less useless
21:16:32 <pikhq> True, it is goofy that it exists while being *misleading*.
21:17:05 <pikhq> Only preventing cases of pilot error rather than being at all about hardening...
21:22:28 <zzo38> What is a simple way to implement something like OPLL FM synthesis?
21:23:06 <Bicyclidine> permissions aren't a security feature, huh
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21:31:23 * pikhq blinks. LD_PRELOAD on glibc works for suid binaries if the LD_PRELOAD list doesn't have a '/' in it.
21:43:04 <int-e> http://sprunge.us/JBhf
21:44:18 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, i thought there were measures in place for using LD_PRELOAD with suid binaries
21:46:57 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yep. Apparently it needs to be a library in the system library path, or configured with /etc/ldpreload.conf or some such
21:48:06 <int-e> address space layout randomization
21:48:34 <pikhq> Which is of course the point.
21:48:47 <int-e> (there is no shell code actually; the exit value is already on the stack when printf is called, in the /bin/false binary here)
21:49:14 <int-e> so I'm just poking 0 there
21:49:30 <int-e> or 256, which has the same effecty
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22:08:07 <oerjan> <tswett> Whelp, Funciton is my favorite esolang at the moment. <-- it is pretty nice
22:14:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BytePusher II]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39917 * Javamannen * (+1855) The Holy Quest for a New and Improved BytePusher has begun! You too can be a Knight!
22:15:16 <int-e> `` diff <(cat /proc/self/maps) <(cat /proc/self/maps)
22:15:17 <HackEgo> 29c29 \ < 7fbfafb000-7fbfb1c000 rw-p 00000000 00:00 0 \ --- \ > 7fbfde4000-7fbfe05000 rw-p 00000000 00:00 0
22:15:50 <int-e> (without ASLR, the output would be empty)
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22:17:08 <Bicyclidine> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-dUx9fgbW0 feel it.
22:18:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Works in progress]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39918&oldid=39448 * Javamannen * (+20) Added BytePusher II to list
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22:31:10 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523_> I found that 8 became tolerable when I removed edge gestures from the touchpad <-- i have this bug in my touchpad driver that occasionally makes it forget i've disabled that. (and sometimes it instead chooses to scroll whatever page i'm on all the way to the top.)
22:33:08 <boily> Taneb: eh? wut? you... auto tanelled yourself?
22:33:21 <boily> Quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIA!
22:33:24 <oerjan> it may have been that bug that caused my blue screen of death yesterday, for the first time. although that may also have been keeping my browser open too long.
22:33:36 <Taneb> boily, I felt like saving you the effort
22:34:45 <boily> no, I'm enjoying the 10% off on québec products at the SAQ :D
22:34:57 <oerjan> i try to restart my browser about once a day to prevent that, but lately i've been having too many shtetl-optimized tabs i don't want to lose my place in
22:34:59 <boily> (we're celebrating la St-Jean à soir!)
22:35:13 <boily> Société des Alcools du Québec.
22:35:34 <boily> exactly right spot on.
22:35:52 <oerjan> is it a monopoly like the scandinavian ones
22:36:07 <Quintopia> the idea of a vinmonopolet weirds me
22:37:07 <boily> oerjan: it is, so they tax us with outrageous taxes, along with some artificial overpricing and taxes on top of it.
22:37:18 <oerjan> "vinmonopolet" translates to "the wine monopoly" you can't put "a" in front hth
22:39:43 <oerjan> ok you can, but you _may_ not hth
22:40:53 <Quintopia> it may translate with an article, but it's still the name of a store, and i can always turn the name of a store into a category of store, and then i can refer to particular stores in that category with an indefinite article
22:42:45 <oerjan> Quintopia: the term for a single unarticled store is "vinmonopol" or to be formal "vinmonopolutsalg" hth
22:44:16 <Quintopia> oerjan: but as a brand name, it's vinmonopolet!
22:44:32 <zzo38> I want to be able to support, in a music playback, to have a 6502 emulation which has registers to do three kind of things: sample playback (with the features of Impulse Tracker), OPL2 emulation (for use with some Scream Tracker files), and Amiga LED filter emulations (for use with Amiga Protracker files).
22:45:12 <boily> FireFly: “tsalg” is more euphonic, I say.
22:45:20 <Quintopia> i think scandinavian countries should outlaw alcohol.
22:45:34 <zzo38> You could have, $0000-$3FFF = RAM, $4000-$7FFF = audio registers, $8000-$FFFF = ROM (bankswitched).
22:45:40 <FireFly> Apparently Norway did, between 1917 and 1922
22:45:44 <Quintopia> it'd do wonders for prices and organized crime
22:46:05 <FireFly> And Finland between 1919 and 1932
22:46:41 <Quintopia> and they still ended up with monopolies? do scandinavian mobsters have no balls?
22:46:47 <oerjan> boily: norwegian really doesn't use "ts" at the beginning of words, except in loan words like tsatsiki and tse-tse-flue
22:47:36 <oerjan> and the less pedantic may pronounce it as just s even then
22:48:04 <oerjan> i'm not even sure which is considered most correct
22:50:00 <oerjan> FireFly: vinmonopolet used to be more than just the store, but the eu forced us to disband the import monopoly part
22:51:28 <oerjan> <FireFly> Apparently Norway did, between 1917 and 1922 <-- only hard liquor afair
22:51:57 <shachaf> oerjan: you were around back then?
22:52:16 <shachaf> only mod. surprising, i suppose
22:52:22 <oerjan> my recall is from some time reading about it, though.
22:53:47 <pikhq> Aaaah, prohibition and temperance.
22:54:01 <pikhq> Such an amusingly counterproductive set of policies.
22:54:18 <Quintopia> the best way to make people quit drinking is to give away really shitty alcohol for free
22:54:33 <oerjan> methanol is really effective for that hth
22:55:28 <Quintopia> it is not perfectly effective though
22:55:30 <oerjan> boily: sure it does, i guarantee they'll quit
22:55:39 <Quintopia> as can be seen in hobos drinking rubbing alcohol when they get desperate
22:56:09 <oerjan> i don't think rubbing alcohol is methanol?
22:56:45 <boily> rubbing is a mix of ethanol and isopropanol.
22:57:34 <oerjan> hi douglass tell kmc we would like him back :(
22:57:42 <pikhq> In the US it's a solution of isopropanol. I imagine the choice varies depending on the country.
22:57:45 <boily> kmc disappeared? noooooooooo!
22:58:48 <pikhq> douglass: Weird. In the US "rubbing alcohol" is defined to be 68-99% isopropanol by volume. :)
23:01:19 <douglass> I'm not sure what the 99% stuff is actually meant for. Maybe for super-cheap people like me who dilute it themselves to save money?
23:02:00 <pikhq> Burning, I presume.
23:04:22 <douglass> Right, alcohol stoves are a thing.
23:04:59 <douglass> I was only thinking of this use as "well, I know that's why people buy it, but I'd think stores would not deliberately cater to foolish college students"
23:05:53 <Bicyclidine> hm why is the preferred name 2-propanol instead of propan-2-ol.
23:06:10 <boily> if you're at a party and a chemistry student offers you some of his homemade «robine» that already smells like vomit even before it went through somebody's mouth once, just say no.
23:07:00 <Taneb> robine = mouthwash?
23:08:15 <Taneb> Oh, rubbing alcohol
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23:11:12 <boily> Taneb: as you pointed out, qc:robine = en:“rubbing alcohol”. we call alcoholic hobos «robineux».
23:11:25 <Taneb> I shall goodnight now
23:11:33 <Bicyclidine> the use-mention distinction there seems odd
23:20:19 <Phantom_Hoover> according to wikipedia brainfuck's typing discipline is 'static, strong, manifest'
23:21:25 <Bicyclidine> admittedly i have never run into a type error in brainfuck.
23:23:56 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: having just one type would tend to imply that, no
23:24:31 <Phantom_Hoover> i dunno about 'manifest', you're not exactly declaring the type anywhere
23:24:55 <Phantom_Hoover> (in fact the ragged edges of the implementation are mostly there because of that)
23:36:20 <oerjan> well you could say that since you never declare any variables, all declared variables are manifestly typed hth
23:38:26 <oerjan> does this mean underload is manifestly typed too
23:39:41 <metasepia> ENVA 232250Z 25009KT 9999 SCT020 BKN050 09/06 Q1020 RMK WIND 670FT 26008KT
23:39:43 <boily> AAAAAAAAARGH STUPID BOT DE MARCHE TOUT CROCHE AAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!
23:39:59 <metasepia> CYUL 232300Z 12007KT 30SM FEW065 OVC210 26/11 A3000 RMK SC1CI8 SC TR SLP159 DENSITY ALT 1300FT
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23:47:43 <metasepia> ESSA 232320Z 35010KT 9999 BKN007 09/08 Q1011 TEMPO BKN010
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23:59:07 <zzo38> I cannot get this FM synthesizer to work properly!
00:00:28 <boily> in which context is it not working properly?
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00:01:21 <zzo38> I am trying to write a suitable FM synthesizer to synthesize samples for AmigaMML.
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00:24:42 <zzo38> Well, I did get the PADsynth to work in AmigaMML.
00:24:54 <zzo38> But, not FM synth; I cannot get that to work very well!
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00:26:33 <zzo38> Do you have advice for writing a proper FM synthesizer (but is not too complicated)?
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00:32:47 <boily> probably through additive synthesis. it may not be real pure standard fm synthesis, but it's cheap and easy to play with.
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00:35:27 <boily> (that beta between the two operators in the first diagram on the wikipédia article confuses me.)
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00:36:51 <zzo38> I mean I would intend to implement each operator, where each operator consists of ADSR envelope (with a fixed sustain duration of zero), a tremolo flag, vibrato flag, rectify-waveform flag, and a frequency modulator input.
00:37:03 <zzo38> What is the proper way to do it?
00:40:52 <Sgeo_> Should I be looking at Swift?
00:40:59 <Sgeo_> Will Swift ever be usable on non-Apple machines?
00:41:34 <boily> zzo38: have you ever used Reason, or anything similar?
00:41:39 <boily> Sgeo_: yes, maybe.
00:42:27 <zzo38> No, I have not used those
00:42:33 <zzo38> I have used Csound
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00:42:52 <zzo38> I am not exactly sure what "Reason" is, although I have heard of it
00:43:07 <boily> well, Reason is very visual, and you stack and connect different modules in a virtual rack. they demos explain quite a bit of how it works.
00:43:18 <boily> https://www.propellerheads.se/products/reason/
00:44:28 <boily> on implementation possibility: you'd have a generator, generating pure samples. nothing more than a level. and then you'd pipe that level through various filters and distortions.
00:44:32 <zzo38> I have used other DAW software on other people's computer, but I just prefer Csound myself; it is the best kind of DAW software in my opinion.
00:45:07 <zzo38> Csound does work like you describe; you can do it like that, or use commands to generate the tone directly, or a combination of such.
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00:54:16 <boily> I shall shamelessly abandon you and disappear on a rented bike for the night. I will return tomorrow.
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01:00:02 <zzo38> I have seen much of the other software and conclude that Csound is still the best one (Csound is also Free software, was written in 1986, and is still being updated today).
01:03:43 <zzo38> Both batch and live modes are supported, it supports MIDI and audio I/O, both from file and live, can load extensions (Csound extensions, VST extensions, and LADSPA extensions), and it can be used as a VST extension, and it supports optional FLTK GUI, and then many other input devices: keyboard, mouse, joystick, and Wii remotes.
01:04:17 <zzo38> Csound is also usable as a Ableton Live extension if you wish to do so.
01:07:49 <zzo38> I have not used most of these features, but they are there.
01:08:27 <zzo38> The only type of input I have used is from a text file, and the only type of output is to a audio file.
01:08:30 <zzo38> But, it can do much more.
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04:13:34 <zzo38> Now I made version 0.4 of AmigaMML. Do you like this?
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05:29:38 <Sgeo_> "What a shame. I was hoping for a list of truly bizarre programming languages, in the vein of APL, MUMPS and PHP. "
05:29:42 <Sgeo_> http://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammingLanguages/comments/1wivj6/10_most_bizarre_programming_languages_ever/
05:30:59 <Sgeo_> Reading /r/ProgrammingLanguages
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06:00:04 <zzo38> Does anyone else ever make such things where logical negation rules are considered as structural rules?
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13:36:49 <impomatic_> Does anyone recognise this programming language? https://twitter.com/john_metcalf/status/481366103424512000/photo/1
13:39:07 <b_jonas> impomatic_: I don't recognize that
13:39:31 <b_jonas> impomatic_: it's probably something old because it has ".and.", could it be a fortran variant?
13:41:36 <impomatic_> b_jonas: I think it's the dBase language, but I don't remember ever using dBase...
13:43:58 <boily> I don't think it's dBase, per wikipédia's examples.
13:46:19 <impomatic_> I'm going by the colour codes, e.g. W/BG+ for white text on a cyan background.
13:46:55 <impomatic_> Although something else might use the same / similar codes.
13:49:27 <b_jonas> it probably means intensity, so W+/BG is bright white on cyan background
13:49:36 <boily> b_jonas: http://www.tek-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=632745
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14:06:29 <fizzie> I like how the only reply to the "what language is this?" tweet is "what language is this?"
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14:41:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BytePusher II]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39919 * GreyKnight * (+1752) I suppose I should be a Knight
14:51:23 <MDream> I ought to bother logging into the wiki again, if only to take the time to categorize uncateogrized pages.
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15:02:58 <boily> Gregor: 503 SERVICE UNAVAILABLE!!!1!!one!!!1!!11!
15:03:09 <boily> (oh. hm. it seems to be back to normal.)
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15:17:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39920&oldid=39917 * GreyKnight * (+52) categories
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15:31:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turning tarpit]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39921&oldid=33737 * GreyKnight * (+70) this page isn't itself a turning tarpit!
15:36:16 <MDude> I dunno about that, I think descriptions of a general category go in the category they describe, or at least that's how Wikiepedia does it.
15:36:58 <MDude> Either that or the category page needs to link to the description from the category page description.
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15:53:15 <myname> is lambda calculus considered a turing tarpit?
15:57:30 <int-e> good question. it starts out as one, but you have higher order functions which are extremely neat for abstraction, so in principle you can get out of the pit.
15:58:41 <MDude> I find it odd that two brainfuck derivatives are in that category, but not the original.
15:58:57 <ion> Shouldn’t a turing tarpit be difficult? Is lambda calculus considered difficult?
15:58:58 <MDude> Maybe jus tmake brainfuck derivatives a turing tarpit subcategorey?
16:00:06 <ion> I’d be okay with calling SKI calculus difficult to use but perhaps not lambda calculus.
16:02:36 <int-e> ion: yet there's a straight-forward translation from lambda calculus to SKI calculus
16:03:23 <int-e> (though you have a point there; the only way I've ever written unlambda programs beyond hello world is by writing them in lambda calculus)
16:03:27 <ion> There’s an even more straight-forward translation from the usual lambda calculus to one with de Bruijn indices and i’d also call the latter difficult to use.
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17:29:33 <FireFly> impomatic_: it looks BASIC-y to me
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17:53:12 <FireFly> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/library/3kdwea32(v=vs.80).aspx looks similar
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19:25:26 <fizzie> Perhaps not terribly unlikely for dBase and FoxPro languages to look similar.
19:26:48 <fizzie> I believe FoxPro's been a dBase look-alike in its past.
19:27:19 <fizzie> Having .T. for truth and then && etc. instead of .AND. looks kinda strange.
19:36:50 <b_jonas> fizzie: isn't that a fortranism?
19:37:22 <b_jonas> all old programming languages from that era had that because you couldn't punch && to a punch card. && was spreaded by the success of C later.
19:38:25 <boily> & didn't exist on punch cards?
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19:40:11 <fizzie> b_jonas: Having .T. and .AND. both wouldn't look strange. But FireFly's FoxPro link had .T. yet still &&.
19:40:46 <fizzie> (FORTRAN spells it .TRUE., too.)
19:40:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: probaby because it's not that old
19:41:40 <fizzie> Then it shouldn't have .T. either.
19:41:49 <b_jonas> why, what should it have instead?
19:42:13 <fizzie> .T. obviously pairs with the .X. style boolean operators.
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19:43:54 <tswett> douglass: I think it's significantly harder to make 99% isopropanol than 70% isopropanol or whatever.
19:45:00 <douglass> This makes sense, and yet when I've seen it for sale it doesn't seem correspondingly more expensive.
19:45:22 <douglass> Also 70% has (or should have) higher demand because it's better at disinfecting thins
19:45:42 <tswett> Mm, Wikipedia says that distilling gives you 91% ABV.
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19:46:45 <fizzie> Well, I mean. They've clearly copied .T. from somewhere. dBASE, most likely. Which also has .OR., .NOT. and so on.
19:47:35 <fizzie> Anyway, never mind since I just totally misread the sample. :p
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19:47:53 <fizzie> Turns out && is the inline comment indicator.
19:49:02 <fizzie> (Though they *also* seem to have dropped the dots out of the operators, and just kept them as keywords AND and OR.)
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19:58:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RYANNINJASHEEP * New user account
19:59:24 <tswett> My brain initially broke that up as Ryannin Jasheep.
20:03:01 <olsner> who's ryannin jasheep?
20:04:44 <int-e> playing with http://wordsmith.org/anagram/ ... "Japan Yen Shrine" is an anagram of "Ryannin Jasheep".
20:09:14 <boily> maybe “ryannin” is some kind of weird chinese-dialect-imported-into-japanese meaning 「二人」...
20:10:37 <boily> (but that doesn't explain what's a “jasheep” at all.)
20:11:45 <olsner> maybe Ja Rule rules over Ja Sheep
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20:55:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Slide]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39922 * GreyKnight * (+980) Created page with "Wouldn't it be better to use spaces for empty space? I've also been using "#" for immovables in my scribblings here. Of course, the input syntax doesn't really matter once e..."
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21:31:40 <oerjan> <impomatic_> Does anyone recognise this programming language? https://twitter.com/john_metcalf/status/481366103424512000/photo/1 <-- no, but now i know what you look like *MWAHAHAHA*
21:36:04 <oerjan> <MDude> Maybe jus tmake brainfuck derivatives a turing tarpit subcategorey? <-- to me turing tarpit implies minimalism, and not all brainfuck derivatives are minimalistic.
21:36:21 <oerjan> @tell MDude <MDude> Maybe jus tmake brainfuck derivatives a turing tarpit subcategorey? <-- to me turing tarpit implies minimalism, and not all brainfuck derivatives are minimalistic.
21:38:13 <oerjan> <ion> Shouldn’t a turing tarpit be difficult? Is lambda calculus considered difficult? <-- lambda calculus is a turing tarpit that, unlike most others, minimalizes on abstraction itself. therefore it can be one while still being useable.
21:38:27 <oerjan> @tell ion <ion> Shouldn’t a turing tarpit be difficult? Is lambda calculus considered difficult? <-- lambda calculus is a turing tarpit that, unlike most others, minimalizes on abstraction itself. therefore it can be one while still being useable.
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21:44:20 <shachaf> oerjan: your evil schemes involve knowing what people look like?
21:45:04 <oerjan> how else can my robots recognize them
21:45:29 <shachaf> well i look like this http://slbkbs.org/sb/1.png hth
21:45:30 <oerjan> i suppose dna, but that's even harder to find via internet
21:46:56 <oerjan> shachaf: i always knew you were a fan
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22:21:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39923&oldid=39919 * Ryanninjasheep * (+135) /* A Question... */ new section
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22:30:55 <nooodl> #esoteric challenge: fire up a text editor and write fizzbuzz in, C or something, without hitting backspace
22:31:14 <nooodl> i'm gonna try this?? oh god
22:33:30 <nooodl> wow yes i should've rolled with this. damn
22:34:10 <Bicyclidine> (loop for i from 1 to 100 when (zerop (mod i 3)) do (print "fizz") when (zerop (mod i oh i forget an unless, well, blah.
22:34:56 <nooodl> oh jesus i started the worst indentation habit but now i have to roll with it
22:35:45 <elliott> unlines [s | i <- [1..100], let p = (i `mod` 3) == 0, let q = (i `mo` 5 == 0), let s = if p then "Fizz" else "" ++ if q then "Buzz" else ""]
22:36:03 <elliott> let's just pretend I put main = putStr $ in front of that
22:36:17 <nortti> I assume all vi commands for deleting or changing text are also prohibited in the challenge?
22:36:27 <Bicyclidine> > unlines [s | i <- [1..100], let p = (i `mod` 3) == 0, let q = (i `mo` 5 == 0), let s = if p then "Fizz" else "" ++ if q then "Buzz" else ""] where mo = mod
22:36:28 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:143: parse error on input ‘where’
22:36:35 <nooodl> for vi you enter insert mode and never look back
22:36:44 <elliott> > let mo = mod in unlines [s | i <- [1..100], let p = (i `mod` 3) == 0, let q = (i `mo` 5 == 0), let s = if p then "Fizz" else "" ++ if q then "Buzz" else ""]
22:36:45 <lambdabot> "\n\nFizz\n\nBuzz\nFizz\n\n\nFizz\nBuzz\n\nFizz\n\n\nFizz\n\n\nFizz\n\nBuzz\...
22:36:53 <shachaf> "... where ..." isn't an expression
22:36:58 <elliott> aw I guess the \ns are cheating
22:39:25 <nooodl> fizzbuzz isn't hard enough though. hm
22:40:08 <Bicyclidine> well, i could just name infinite programming tasks, i guess.
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22:44:44 <nooodl> > let ps = 2 : 3 : filter p [5,7,..]-- oops what did i o
22:44:45 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:32: parse error on input ‘..’
22:45:30 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:6: parse error on input ‘..’
22:45:38 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:9: parse error on input ‘]’
22:45:48 <nooodl> > let ps = filter p [2..] where p n = all (\x -> mod n x == 0) [2..n-1] in ps
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22:48:24 <nooodl> pretend i caught that just a bit earlier and
22:48:25 <nooodl> > let ps = filter p [2..] where p n = all (\x -> mod n x == 0) [2..n-1]; (==) = (/=) in ps
22:48:27 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,...
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22:56:33 <boily> nooodl: helooooodl.
22:57:06 <boily> (I was watching some ethoslab.)
22:57:22 <oerjan> > [x | let x = mo; mo = 2]
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22:57:48 <oerjan> so it could have been repaired after the mo`
22:59:18 <oerjan> is there anything that could have repaired it much later
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23:04:33 * oerjan cannot think of anything
23:08:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39924&oldid=39923 * Javamannen * (+2125)
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00:08:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39925&oldid=39924 * Javamannen * (+523) RE: A Question...
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08:05:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39926&oldid=39925 * GreyKnight * (+1834) /* RE: A Question... */ keyboard modes
08:24:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39927&oldid=39926 * GreyKnight * (+861) /* RE: the opinions of GreyKnight */
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08:51:39 <Taneb> Heh, today's Girl Genius. "The engine that made the Konigsberg run in LESS then[sic] TWELVE KILOMETERS!"
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08:56:09 <fizzie> I misread that "in" as "is", and thought that that meant the engine was less than twelve kilometers in size.
08:56:24 <fizzie> And made a thing called Konigsberg to run.
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09:26:59 <ion> http://www.clickhole.com/article/stick-butter-left-out-room-temperature-you-wont-be-368
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10:05:46 * Melvar . o O (Skirting a black hole cluster …)
10:06:04 <Taneb> Melvar, what the hell is the context for that
10:07:51 <Melvar> The Girl Genius comic you mentioned.
10:08:47 <Taneb> I doubt that was what happened in the comic as they are talking about a train
10:09:04 <Taneb> But in the referenced work it was either that or the guy who said it was bullshitting
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10:09:22 <fizzie> Well, perhaps the engine is powerful enough to go over a steeper mountain than other trains.
10:10:06 <fizzie> (The existence of rails to be handwaved in some other way.)
10:10:39 <Taneb> Today is my uni's CS department staff vs students cricket match
10:11:10 <fizzie> Will you be winning by ten degrees Kelvin?
10:11:26 <Taneb> I do not think so, I will not be playing
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10:11:30 <Taneb> I may turn up and watch
10:13:01 <Melvar> If and only if you subscribe to the Expanded Universe, the Kessel Run in twelve parsecs is confirmed in a novel somewhere. It was, however, desperation and luck rather than a premeditated achievement.
10:14:52 <b_jonas> Lucky Starr has done the Kessell Run in twelve parsecs too in one of the novels
10:15:03 <Melvar> It’s mentioned elsewhere that the Maw (the black hole cluster) shouldn’t be able to exist, as black holes generally don’t form clusters without just merging.
10:18:55 <fizzie> And if you believe the script notes, Solo's "obviously lying". (I'm a bit worried about the "Parts of this article have been identified as no longer being up to date" template in the Wookieepedia article.)
10:18:59 <b_jonas> Melvar: and I think a star system like Lagash/Kalgash shouldn't be able to exist
10:21:43 <Melvar> b_jonas: I’m not familiar with that one.
10:22:50 <b_jonas> Melvar: Lagash is the planet with five suns in Asimov's short story (and novel) ''Nightfall''
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10:48:48 <metasepia> EFHK 251020Z 33010KT 9999 SCT035 BKN062 13/05 Q1011 NOSIG
10:50:29 <fizzie> The famous -DZ Do'Urden.
10:52:32 <boily> the current weather indeed brings pictures of him, with everything being glauque.
10:53:02 <int-e> 19/18, high humidity? sounds unpleasant
10:53:44 <fizzie> It's been quite DZy here the last few days, but today seems drier.
10:53:55 <metasepia> LOWI 251020Z 24003KT 180V300 9999 FEW025 SCT120 20/12 Q1009 NOSIG
10:54:43 <int-e> (aka nice weather)
10:54:47 <boily> int-e: we had pockets of air during the solid rain last night. I fear the moment I'll have to go outside.
10:55:24 <b_jonas> yes, this wohle weather is very humid, it's been for two months now
10:58:16 <boily> b_jonas: hm. I don't happen to have a record of your approximate geographic coördinates from the The Question. where were you again?
10:59:43 <metasepia> LHBP 251030Z VRB03KT 9999 SCT020 BKN200 20/14 Q1009 NOSIG
11:00:00 <b_jonas> what's nice but strange is that despite the warm winter we don't have too many mosquitos yet
11:07:59 <boily> they are biding their time, plotting, scheming in the dark and damp recesses of the city. they'll suddenly swarm together, a single legion of high-pitched buzzing hellbeasts bent on showing their ecological responsibility and not wasting a single drop of blood.
11:10:14 <int-e> Hitchcock, The 'Quitos
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14:03:11 <fizzie> I like how all these conference invitations get Thunderbird's "this message may be a scam" warning.
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15:57:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39928&oldid=39927 * Javamannen * (+765) RE: Colors
16:00:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39929&oldid=39928 * GreyKnight * (+161) /* RE: the opinions of GreyKnight */
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21:50:27 <boily> and it's not even that humid. go figure.
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21:58:05 <metasepia> LOWI 252150Z AUTO 09003KT 050V120 9999 FEW020 BKN026 13/11 Q1015
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21:59:40 <boily> int-e: uhm, sorry. that is for CYQB.
21:59:55 <int-e> I see what I did wrong (still getting 65% but hey, it sounds bearable)
22:00:12 <metasepia> CYQB 252100Z 07008KT 30SM FEW035 SCT095 BKN250 22/12 A2995 RMK SC1AC2CI4 SLP141 DENSITY ALT 1100FT
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22:02:57 <boily> int-e: ah, finally got it. 68.9% here.
22:03:29 <boily> 87.6% on your end.
22:04:20 <int-e> Right, but 13 degrees quite cool, too cool for the humidity to matter much.
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22:14:39 <oerjan> <Taneb> Heh, today's Girl Genius. "The engine that made the Konigsberg run in LESS then[sic] TWELVE KILOMETERS!" <-- i think you mean monday's hth
22:14:57 * oerjan checks if wednesday's is finally up
22:15:56 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH. thanks for reminding me that I'm hopelessly late with catching up on GG.
22:15:58 <oerjan> but it's a cute shout out, anyway
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22:17:58 * oerjan wonders how far the corbettite monks' rail network goes. also, given that it's clearly sacred, if the schedule is actually unchangeable
22:18:31 <int-e> oh it's a 13km race. thanks for making me google.
22:20:45 <oerjan> int-e: i have no idea what you are googling, "konigsberg run" doesn't show up anything relevant
22:21:04 <oerjan> also, that's not the reference i got, anyway
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22:22:16 <olsner> it's probably a run around konigsbergs
22:22:33 * oerjan tries changing to kaliningrad but it doesn't help
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22:24:45 <int-e> oerjan: königsberglauf
22:25:23 <oerjan> silly german-only sites
22:26:04 <nortti> I originally interpreted that as engine making the city run
22:26:35 <oerjan> int-e: i am doubtful that the GG authors were thinking of that
22:27:25 <int-e> oerjan: granted, but it's a neat detail isn't it :)
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22:30:18 <int-e> . o O ( I hate it when LaTeX chokes on its .aux file. )
22:30:24 <oerjan> int-e: also i take it that is not königsberg the city (which isn't even in germany any more)
22:31:47 <int-e> oerjan: right. the destination is a small mountain called Königsberg. (king's mountain)
22:32:14 <int-e> And I still find it funny because 13km is so close to 12km.
22:33:25 <oerjan> the 12 is of course straight from the original source
22:33:46 <boily> int-e: LaTeX can choke on its own aux? how is that possible? what kind of fungottian magic did you invoke?
22:33:46 <fungot> boily: budget issues make sarahbot sad?) that suddenly failed. :(
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22:35:43 <int-e> [4~boily: sometimes an error in a latex document will cause it to produce a corrupt .aux file (which consists of tex code after all, and is read when the .tex file is processed). Subsequently fixing the error in the document will not help in that case. And it happens so infrequently that I'm surprised every time it happens.
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22:38:11 <boily> I mustn't have typed enough LaTeX in my time, then, for it has never happened to me. (and yes, even with this chännel's courteous efforts to make my life miserable while compiling the PDF, no, never had I a corrupted .aux.)
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22:56:34 <douglass> yeah, it's important to delete all the latex droppings if you have confusing errors
22:56:49 <douglass> same goes for the bibliography files
22:57:09 <int-e> but they weren't causing trouble *this time*
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23:07:40 <boily> speaking of errors, youtube just gave me an interesting one: «Une erreur s'est produite. Veuillez réessayer.»
23:10:12 <oerjan> is that ungrammatical or something
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23:14:55 <boily> not at all. I just find its approximate and foggy vagueness to be strangely zen.
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23:16:03 <int-e> "an error has occurred, please retry"?
23:17:25 <boily> but mind you, it's nicely worded. also, the CSS was just right.
23:18:55 <int-e> (ftr, I don't know french)
23:19:17 <oerjan> @djinn f :: Maybe (b -> Either a b)
23:19:24 <oerjan> @djinn Maybe (b -> Either a b)
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23:25:59 <boily> is a “b -> Either a b” function possible? shouldn't “a” be fixed to a single type, and not be a variable?
23:27:11 <Bike> @djinn b -> Either a b
23:27:26 <Bike> well that makes sense.
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23:30:20 * boily is suddenly illuminated
23:31:09 <Taneb> Help one of my friends and I have done something very bad
23:31:28 <Bike> Felony or misdemeanor?
23:31:39 <Taneb> Neither of us are US citizens
23:31:53 <boily> what is illegal, illicit or amoral?
23:31:58 <Taneb> Aaaanyway, you know how Facebook has a "Poke" feature?
23:32:00 <Bike> er, are those terms america-specific
23:32:51 <Bike> oh, it's not as important in the UK, ok.
23:33:42 <Taneb> Well, Facebook has a "Poke" feature that counts how many times two people have pressed the button that says "poke back"
23:33:49 <Taneb> Kind of like a lame co-op cookie clicker
23:33:56 <Taneb> Well, we've both scripted it
23:38:43 <Bike> yeah, probably a felony.
23:41:23 <nooodl_> boily: it's like how an "[a]" value is possible, i guess ([])
23:43:10 <Taneb> In other news, some of my friends are putting on a play!
23:43:31 <Taneb> And I kind of want to go to see it
23:43:40 <Taneb> But it is a long way away (on UK scales)
23:43:45 <Taneb> (not even that far actually)
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23:46:58 <boily> nooodl_: thus the illumination, or enlightenment if you prefer.
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23:59:25 <oerjan> and _there_ i'm back up to 3 shtethl-optimized tabs again.
23:59:44 <Bike> that's pretty shtethl
00:01:16 <metasepia> Shtetls were small towns with large Jewish population which existed in Central and Eastern Europe before the Holocaust. Shtetls were mainly found in the areas which constituted the 19th century Pale of Settlement in the Russian Empire, the Congress Kingdom of Poland, Galicia and Romania. In Yiddish, a larger city, like Lemberg or Czernowitz, was called a shtot; a village was called a dorf.
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00:09:01 <oerjan> let's just say scott aaronson isn't trying to hide his jewishness 'kay?
00:23:52 <int-e> there we go, no GG comic
00:24:01 <int-e> partially colored, tsk
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00:32:26 <oerjan> there you see it, new you don't.
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03:06:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39930&oldid=39859 * 24.44.25.193 * (+14) /* T */
03:08:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tuplary]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39931 * 24.44.25.193 * (+235) Created page with "The '''tuplary''' programming language was created by Daniel Borowski. The language is composed entirely of brackets and runs in the browser by compiling into JavaScript. Docu..."
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03:11:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tuplary]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39932&oldid=39931 * 24.44.25.193 * (+307)
03:12:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tuplary]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39933&oldid=39932 * 24.44.25.193 * (-9) /* EXAMPLE FIBONACCI PROGRAM */
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03:14:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tuplary]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39934&oldid=39933 * 24.44.25.193 * (+200) /* Example Fibonacci Program */
03:16:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tuplary]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39935&oldid=39934 * 24.44.25.193 * (+63)
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09:06:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39936 * GermanyBoy * (+9082) Created page with "'''SYCPOL''' ('''Sy'''stem '''c'''ard '''p'''r'''o'''gramming '''l'''anguage, pronounced /'sɪkpɔl/) is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:GermanyBoy]] in..."
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09:36:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:GermanyBoy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39937&oldid=39790 * GermanyBoy * (+67) Added SYCPOL
09:37:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39938&oldid=39930 * GermanyBoy * (+13) /* S */ SYCPOL
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11:29:36 <Phantom_Hoover> http://willyreport.wordpress.com/2014/05/25/the-willy-report-proof-of-massive-fraudulent-trading-activity-at-mt-gox-and-how-it-has-affected-the-price-of-bitcoin/ so this is a pretty fun read
11:44:24 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, wow
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13:34:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Slide]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39939&oldid=39922 * 107.5.152.253 * (+483)
13:51:59 <fizzie> Sometimes I wonder about LaTeX newcommand and renewcommand.
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13:53:57 <fizzie> (For \newcommand, it is an error if the command is already defined; for \renewcommand, it is an error if the command is *not*.)
13:55:47 <int-e> fizzie: it avoids training people to just use 'renewcommand' all the time.
13:56:25 <fizzie> I guess that's reasonable. But I've occasionally wanted a "just define it no matter what", like the TeX \def.
13:56:35 <fizzie> (There's a \defcommand like that in the moredefs package.)
14:01:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39940&oldid=39936 * GermanyBoy * (+2361) lists and structures
14:03:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39941&oldid=39940 * GermanyBoy * (-1) /* LAYOUT DIVISION */
14:05:27 <fizzie> I just exported a BibTeX citation from an ACM journal, and it says issue_date = {January 2008}, year = {2007}, month = jan, which seems somewhat inconsistent.
14:06:10 <fizzie> The ACM index page itself says "2007 Article" "Volume 1 Issue 3, January 2008".
14:06:20 <fizzie> I guess it could be the submission year, but that seems weird for a citation.
14:07:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39942&oldid=39941 * GermanyBoy * (+130) Reading from a list
14:08:28 <fizzie> And the PDF says "Vol. 1, No. 3 (2007)".
14:09:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39943&oldid=39942 * GermanyBoy * (-88) /* The structure of the program */ Removed the limit until I invent a better one
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14:45:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:GermanyBoy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39944&oldid=39937 * GermanyBoy * (+524)
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18:13:36 <impomatic_> Has anyone got / ever had a Camputers Lynx? I've just been playing with one and it's Basic is depressingly slow.
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18:26:39 <FreeFull> impomatic_: How does it compare to the ZX Spectrum in terms of speed?
18:38:19 <impomatic_> FreeFull, I need to run a proper test. But printing HELLO all over the screen took about 15 seconds.
18:38:36 <impomatic_> Apparently it's fast at math, but slow at displaying text / graphics.
18:44:30 <mroman> TIs have the same problem ;)
18:44:43 <mroman> If your TI Basic Programs have DISPLAY in it it's horribly slower
18:45:20 <FreeFull> A c64 only takes about 2 seconds
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19:29:52 <fizzie> @tell Vorpal http://goo.gl/nCLlMK you probably recognize the place
19:29:54 <fizzie> (Got tired waiting for the planets to align w.r.t. his quite rare visits.)
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19:30:23 <fizzie> TI Basic is not fast in math either.
19:31:43 <fizzie> It only does arithmetics in TI-real numbers, which are these honking 10-byte base-10 BCD-mantissa floats.
19:32:00 <fizzie> Plus I have it on good authority that them ROM routines for arithmetic on those are not good either.
19:32:37 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: the above is correct for TI-86; don't know about other models.)
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20:33:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Shrek's mum * New user account
20:55:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MrDetonia * New user account
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22:40:33 <nortti> I had this idea for "esoteric GC", more time since you last touched an object the higher it goes in the deletion order
22:41:14 <nortti> so that if you want to keep your data you need to "poke" it regularly
22:42:00 <boily> poke it with what?
22:43:23 <nortti> Bicyclidine: no, I mean that whether it has a reference or not is irrelevant, it will be deleted if it wasn't touched in X time
22:43:50 * oerjan has an apple, and shall now bite to test whether it's appealing or appalling.
22:45:53 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards.
22:47:43 <nortti> boily: old english for "I see"
22:47:59 <nortti> well, the accent should be macron but my keyb is kinda limited atm
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23:22:47 <metasepia> ENGM 262250Z 00000KT 9999 -RA SCT004 BKN039 10/09 Q1015
23:23:16 <Sgeo> Enigma is at 1.20
23:23:21 <Sgeo> Which apparently has an API change
23:24:03 <fowl> what is that metar stuff
23:24:22 <boily> fowl: it's weather! it's happening now! it involves AIRPLAAAAAAAAAANES!
23:24:36 <Sgeo> METAsepia meteRology
23:25:04 <metasepia> KSTL 262151Z 10010KT 10SM FEW065 SCT140 BKN250 31/20 A2993 RMK AO2 SLP123 T03060200 $
23:26:26 <boily> fowl: so you see, it is somewhat windy, ground visibility 10 miles, a few clouds at 6500', scattered clouds at 14,000', broken clouds at 25,000', it's 31 °C, dew point at 20 °C, sea level pressure 1012.3 hPa.
23:26:48 <Sgeo> Eww it ships with some song that isn't Pentagonal Dreams
23:26:54 <boily> (the rest is US-specific coded stuff (A and T groups), and the “
23:27:03 <boily> $” at the end means your station neads maintenance.)
23:27:21 <boily> Sgeo: what's enigma?
23:27:41 <Sgeo> http://www.nongnu.org/enigma/
23:27:53 <Sgeo> Great game. ais523 is involved somehow
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23:34:42 <fowl> what do you need all that info
23:34:49 <fowl> are you guys pilots
23:36:01 <boily> uhm. well. it's.. you know, like, people don't think it is like it is, but it do.
23:36:21 <boily> (please! someone! I'm kinda stuck here!)
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23:40:35 * boily fetches a tub of ice cream and drowns his spoon like his sorrows in dairy product
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23:48:26 <oerjan> boily: i don't recommend drowning the whole spoon hth
23:51:11 <boily> of course I don't drown the whole spoon, because it'd mean my hand would be in ice cream, and ice cream is cold.
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00:18:43 <quintopia> because they are lame and can't apprreciate a good old-fashioned terrible pub
00:19:10 <boily> but, but... what is math for if not for incredebly lame puns?
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00:20:16 <quintopia> i guess to torture countless grade school students until they hate playing with abstract concepts and think math is boring
00:23:48 <boily> I missed a call from my dentist today, tried to call them back but they didn't answer!
00:24:02 <boily> and now I need to remember to call them again tomorrow!
00:24:20 <boily> oerjan: yes! it is important! it is tragic! it involves a bite splint!
00:24:28 <tswett> If only there were a way to record information without having to memorize it.
00:24:52 <boily> I don't know of any! it's too complex! LOGIC! AAAAAAAAAAAH!
00:25:25 <oerjan> my mom was a great believer in lists
00:28:27 <quintopia> boily: done anything cool lately? tried any new recipes?
00:29:16 <boily> I got a batch of tasty pulled pork from my uncle last weekend, so I've been using it in just about everything I eat lately.
00:29:44 <boily> I made some killer pork/veggies tuesday night, with some rice.
00:30:33 <boily> as for actual achievements... I'm still biking, and pushing myself higher each time :D
00:30:54 <boily> (damned hills! some day, I will vanquish you all!)
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00:36:04 <douglass> I am not that impressed with trello. It's all right I guess.
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00:38:41 <metasepia> Trello is a free web-based project management application made by Fog Creek Software.
00:39:18 <boily> meh. I'm sold to redmine myself.
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00:56:14 <boily> time for some printed weirdness...
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01:10:41 <oerjan> the chicken from another dimension
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03:03:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39945&oldid=39916 * Oerjan * (+13) spelling and links
03:06:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Randwork]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39946&oldid=39905 * Oerjan * (+52) unsigned
03:10:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BytePusher II]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39947&oldid=39929 * Oerjan * (+51) unsigned
03:28:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Slide]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39948&oldid=39939 * Oerjan * (+185) trivium of four
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03:29:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Slide]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39949&oldid=39948 * Oerjan * (+5) vanquish ambiguity
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09:26:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~-~!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39950&oldid=38767 * Jfb * (+4) /* Functions */
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09:31:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~-~!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39951&oldid=39950 * Jfb * (-1) /* Functions */
09:37:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~-~!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39952&oldid=39951 * Jfb * (-2) /* Computational class */
09:37:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~-~!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39953&oldid=39952 * Jfb * (+2) /* Computational class */
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09:46:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39954&oldid=39920 * Javamannen * (+411) The need for speed?
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11:02:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Slide]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39955&oldid=39893 * GreyKnight * (+35) syntax changes discussed earlier, specify exactly how the halt state works
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11:42:36 <b_jonas> some of these esolangs are dumb. but it's worth staying for the rest.
11:44:33 <impomatic_> Underload, FALSE and Mouse are pretty good...
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14:16:57 <b_jonas> will http://icfpcontest.org/ not have any teasers this year, or is it just too early?
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14:27:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ByteMover]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39956&oldid=20178 * Javamannen * (-1038) Keep it simple stupid!
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14:45:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39957&oldid=39954 * Javamannen * (-197) Preliminary VM specs
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19:42:17 <impomatic_> eBay just sent me a 75 voucher code to apologise that I had to change my password!
19:42:23 <impomatic_> No catch. 75 to spend on eBay on anything I like :-)
19:42:28 <impomatic_> It's probably worth checking your spam folder (or promotions folder on gmail)...
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19:44:34 <impomatic_> I think I'll just buy some stuff that I've been after for a while, but the price has always been too high :-)
19:44:45 <impomatic_> There's some retro computer bits I'd like
19:46:00 <impomatic_> Is that what you'd buy? A hat and a SATA cable?
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19:56:48 <fizzie> I changed my password when they had that password reset "thing" back then, and nobody gave me free money for it.
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19:56:53 <nortti> https://github.com/shinh/sedlisp/
19:57:57 <impomatic_> fizzie: I don't understand. Compensation for having to change your password sounds a bit crazy to me!
19:58:27 <fizzie> impomatic_: Yeah, but there's an official-eBay-person-marked reply about it at http://community.ebay.co.uk/t5/eBay-Password-Change-Discussion/ive-got-a-75-pound-off-voucher-form-ebay-for-the-trouble-with/m-p/3333293
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20:00:42 <fizzie> It seems like a really strange thing to pay random amounts of money to random people, given that they asked everyone to do the password reset.
20:02:06 <fizzie> I guess you are a "valued customer".
20:03:03 <impomatic_> Seems strange. I assume there's some logic to it. Would've been better to give everyone the save, 5 or something (or even just save 5 when you spend 20).
20:05:17 <impomatic_> Giving a few people 75 will just annoy everyone else...
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21:47:44 <olsner> hmm, someone said something to me past the scrollback
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22:11:56 <nortti> olsner: could it have been 17:45 < HackEgo> 800) <olsner> it's not completely obvious since the displayed nick lengths are rounded to the closest integer
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22:12:44 <hexagonest> I would like to know how to create an esoteric language?
22:13:55 <boily> have you visited the wiki? did you find any esolang that strike your fancy?
22:14:19 <HackEgo> hexagonest: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:15:35 <hexagonest> not really but i do have a good idea where it's basically only words
22:16:03 <impomatic_> Write a spec, then add it to the wiki.
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23:08:37 <oerjan> of _course_ it'd be gone.
23:09:05 * oerjan peeks wishfully at fizzie
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23:09:57 <oerjan> i'd peek at Gregor`` if i thought it helped.
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23:19:39 <zzo38> Can some kinds of one-dimensional convolution filters be optimized? I would think so, for example if the convolution function is a nonzero value for a certain range and zero everywhere else, you can add, buffer, and subtract it back out whatever is at the other end of the buffer, I think. But if it is exponential function then you can just decay previous value by half and add the input value.
23:22:09 <Bike> doesn't "convolution filters" cover everything linear? i imagine you can do plenty there...
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02:59:37 <zzo38> Do you like AmigaMML, or do you hate it, or not?
03:03:23 <tswett> Bike: I think that e.g. pointwise multiplication is a linear filter that isn't a convolution filter.
03:03:48 <Bike> linear time invariant, then?
03:04:06 <tswett> Yeah, I think every non-pathological linear time-invariant filter would have to be a convolution filter.
03:04:18 <tswett> If you apply it to the Dirac delta function, that tells you the kernel.
03:04:50 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTI_system_theory#Overview right, ok.
03:05:02 * Bike has been attempting to learn this stuff, but from a book instead of a class, so
03:06:05 <Bike> convolution is basically like how generalized functions work, isn't it. huh
03:09:27 <tswett> Aren't generalized functions the dual of the vector space of smooth functions with bounded support, or something?
03:11:23 <tswett> Such that the dot product of a SFBS and a generalized function is effectively the integral of a pointwise product?
03:11:33 <Bike> yeah but you get that by defining the inner product as the integral of the product of bla bla bla
03:12:02 <Bike> and then you say every linear operator is an inner product with some fixed thingie, but the fixed thingie might be something like dirac
03:12:36 <Bike> something something.
03:13:05 <Bike> i'm just glad to know there's some version of generalized functions that isn't a ridiculous hack. learning math from engineering texts is worrying, worrying
03:13:32 <tswett> Where'd you get your definition of a generalized function?
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03:14:58 <Bike> kolmogorov's intro to real analysis (not the engineering book)
03:16:26 <tswett> ATWP, "The vector space D′(U) is the continuous dual space of D(U) equipped with the weak-* topology".
03:16:35 <Bike> "atwp" is unknown to me
03:16:42 <tswett> According to Wikipedia.
03:16:58 <Bike> well, your definition probably subsumes my understanding
03:17:08 <Bike> i just like having things be concrete in some fashion
03:17:50 <Bike> the section on the weak topology is right before this, i just haven't absorbed the whole thing
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04:57:23 <zzo38> Now I am adding many new feature into AmigaMML, such as: auto-portamento, increased maximum length of sample data (including for use with PADsynth), Karplus-Strong, a few bug-fix, and an alternative way to calculate beats-per-minute.
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06:09:16 <Sgeo> When Rust stabilizes, is it likely to at least catch up to Go in terms of library support?
06:10:20 <MSusw> When Rust stabalises it'll be a survival video game.
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06:11:14 <Sgeo> Should I try that game?
06:11:54 <quintopia> it's on my wishlist for the day when it gets more complete and cheaper
06:12:30 <Sgeo> This does not give me confidence in the Go ecosystem: http://technosophos.com/2014/06/27/saved-by-the-bug.html
06:18:05 <zzo38> What would be the operation of each rule of linear logic in a system similar to the Gentzen esolang system I have made up?
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06:35:22 <zzo38> An idea for a variant of poker game is that you play with spread-limit before the flop and you play with pot-limit after. Would it work?
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08:40:49 <Taneb> shachaf, is it oerjanday?
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08:45:11 <Taneb> Sgeo, I don't know much about Go at all
08:45:16 <Taneb> What is its library support like?
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11:56:04 <TieSoul> Well, I've added fingerprint support to my Funge-98 interpreter :P
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14:22:45 <myname> what's a good data structure to use in haskell to store a 2d grid on which i want to make only reads after generation?
14:24:24 <myname> to be even more specific: i only want to access fields around the last selected field. don't know if that matters
14:34:19 <myname> okay, have to take a look, never used arrays in haskell :D
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15:26:18 <HackEgo> olist (956): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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17:29:53 <FireFly> HackEgo seems to be dead again
17:40:28 <olsner> fungot is also dead :/
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17:42:40 <int-e> . o O ( should I evacuate lambdabot from the channel, just to be safe? )
17:43:01 <int-e> (unfortunate timing)
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17:44:28 <fizzie> I don't know what's up with HackEgo not rejoining the channel these days. There's a thing that's supposed to do it if it dies. Though it has hardwired 10-second sleep before it sends the JOIN, so maybe there's some new (identd-related?) timeout thing or something.
17:46:10 <olsner> are you running hackego now?
17:47:48 <fizzie> No, I just have administrative suppositories, I mean, powers, on the server it runs on, since it's the same box that serves the wiki.
17:47:58 <fizzie> So I've been doing these small fixups as a public service.
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17:57:36 <int-e> fizzie: does it actually die though?
17:58:57 <fizzie> int-e: I haven't looked. But it should if the TCP connection to the server closes.
17:59:32 <int-e> fizzie: when I took over, lambdabot would occasionally end up with a one-sided tcp connection, waiting for messages from the IRC server which would never arrive. I solved this by having it send PINGs to detect this scenario.
17:59:56 <fizzie> Well, it wouldn't have come back to IRC if it were waiting on that.
18:00:06 <fizzie> And I think multibot maybe does send pings.
18:00:16 <fizzie> I don't know too much about the thing, since it's not my thing.
18:00:57 <fizzie> It runs inside a while true; do socat TCP4:irc.freenode.net:6667 EXEC:'./multibot ...' &; sleep 10; echo 'JOIN ...' | socat ...; wait; done kinda thing.
18:00:58 <int-e> It's just an idea, because it took me a while to figure that one out.
18:01:03 <fizzie> Anyway, time for a sauna. ->
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22:26:21 <oerjan> shachaf: why thank you!
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22:54:30 <zzo38> I have idea another way to combine a chess game with a poker game. This is not a FIDE chess game, but is a bit difference. You can make the move with each poker hand dealt. You can drop pieces back onto the board like in shogi. There can be dueling like in Sirlin's chess, but using the poker chips.
22:55:40 <zzo38> If you drop piece onto the board, stand it up so your opponent cannot see what kind of piece it is; they have to guess, and if they guessed correctly they can take some of your poker chips but if they guessed wrong then you take their poker chips. Also some squares on the board can be labeled with poker hands and suits, and if you drop it on there, then when the cards are revealed, then if you have it you win some poker chips if you don't have it
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22:59:36 * oerjan just noticed oots had an upgrade in drawing style at comic 947
23:00:19 <oerjan> now their hands are still sticky-like, but they are _flesh-colored_. and other little details.
23:00:40 <shachaf> People have been complaining about it for weeks.
23:00:43 <oerjan> shachaf: i was zooming the newest comic, made it really obvious :P
23:01:28 <shachaf> My sister says she can't bear to look at the comic anymore. She just reads the text or something.
23:01:48 <shachaf> This is what I've always done anyway.
23:05:01 <oerjan> well i like the new style.
23:05:16 <oerjan> i assume his secret plan is that the finale will be photorealistic hth
23:08:19 <zzo38> If you can copy the text then it can also perhaps be reformatted to fit the screen/paper, font size, etc, and if it can avoid to download the picture, and save disk space.
23:11:47 <zzo38> How many dimensions is the most amount that Fourier transform is sometimes used with?
23:14:00 <boily> I think 2, if you're doing image compression or stuff.
23:14:32 <boily> (there are probably weird people out there with a transform fetish applying it so some arbitrary high dimensions...)
23:15:15 <oerjan> it applies to an arbitrary locally compact abelian group, of which all R^n and Z^n are examples.
23:15:56 <zzo38> I wanted to see if you can then extend the PADsynth algorithm to two, three, or even four dimensions.
23:16:05 <oerjan> (although R^n have the particular property that the dual group, in which the result lives, is isomorphic)
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23:16:50 <zzo38> I do not know how the results would appear to be.
23:17:25 <oerjan> (Z^n are dual to T^n where T is the complex unit circle under multiplication)
23:18:08 <zzo38> If doing PADsynth in three dimensions, you could get a animated tiled picture, although I am not sure what it would look like. (Doing so would also need to use higher dimensional Gaussian distributions.)
23:22:37 <oerjan> oh right gaussians are mapped to gaussians. that may not have been mentioned in the harmonic analysis course i took.
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23:43:22 <zzo38> PADsynth uses gaussian distributions with random data for phases.
23:44:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39959&oldid=39958 * Oerjan * (+238) an evil layout epiphany
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01:59:17 <oerjan> oh darn. i edited wikipedia's esoteric programming language article to update the links to the wiki and User:Agyle took it as an opportunity to go on a general deletion massacre against the wiki and other community links. (did you know: our wiki is neither a reliable source, nor mentioned in any?)
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02:06:04 <elliott_> oerjan: iirc there is plenty of precedent for linking to established community wikis, though not as a source
02:08:29 <oerjan> well the bastard also removed the _entire_ section about the existence of a community.
02:12:14 <oerjan> elliott_: e is presumably referring to point 12 in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:External_links#Links_normally_to_be_avoided
02:14:34 <elliott_> well, people will find the wiki anyhow
02:14:58 <zzo38> Our wiki may be a reliable source for some things and may link to some reliable sources.
02:15:21 <zzo38> Not the best kind of reliable source, but for some things it works.
02:15:42 <oerjan> zzo38: that's a technical wikipedia term.
02:16:15 <oerjan> which causes madness if you try to compare it with the colloquial meaning.
02:16:19 <elliott_> anyway twke it to the talk page I guess (it'll be tedious)
02:16:40 <zzo38> What does Wikipedia consider to be reliable then?
02:17:01 <zzo38> Shouldn't it depend on what you are looking for, and on how many sources there are for something?
02:18:13 <oerjan> "should" and "wikipedia policy" are not well correlated concepts hth
02:19:24 <oerjan> elliott_: i cannot bear that kind of arguing.
02:24:47 <oerjan> instead i passive-aggressively https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Agyle&diff=614833601&oldid=614551499
02:26:26 <shachaf> is that really all that passive
02:26:38 <shachaf> also that * turned into a bullet fo a bulleted list
02:26:41 <oerjan> i dunno. what's the exact definition.
02:26:49 <oerjan> i realized that a second too late, shachaf
02:27:03 <oerjan> i think editing it now would be even more pathetic :P
02:28:59 <oerjan> also stupid things are subject to muphry's law. just look at how long it took me to do the edits yesterday that provoked this.
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03:14:02 <oerjan> as long as you stay away from the wizard robe
03:25:18 <zzo38> Please tell me if you found any more mistakes in AmigaMML program, in amigasam, or feature requests, and/or anything unclear/incorrect in the provided documentation.
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04:03:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Javamannen * uploaded "[[File:CHIP16 controller.png]]": Taken from the Machine Specification for CHIP-16. https://github.com/chip16/chip16/wiki/Machine-Specification
04:05:12 <elliott_> that smells like non-pd content
04:09:29 <zzo38> What is smelling like non-pd content?
04:15:36 <Bike> i think zzo has wiki updates blocked.
04:17:17 <oerjan> the LICENSE file for the repository is GPL 3, and i can find no other license for the wiki part.
04:17:48 <oerjan> zzo38: the one in HackEgo's announcement
04:18:04 <zzo38> What announcement?
04:18:30 <zzo38> I have some announcements blocked.
04:18:33 <Bike> 21:02 < HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Javamannen * uploaded "[[File:CHIP16 controller.png]]": Taken from the Machine Specification for CHIP-16. https://github.com/chip16/chip16/wiki/Machine-Specification
04:18:58 <Bike> hopefully you aren't just blocking .*[wiki].* or something, i guess
04:19:45 <zzo38> I am not just blocking .*[wiki].*
04:20:04 <zzo38> The exact specification of the filter I am using is: <1> i /:HackEgo![^ ]* PRIVMSG #esoteric :\[wiki\]/i
04:20:44 <zzo38> I can see the picture now; it has one extra dot it look like.
04:20:51 <elliott_> if you use ignore rules then the reasonable bursen is on you to use logs or whatever to see stuff you missed, since it's a personal thing
04:21:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[File:CHIP16 controller.png]]": Copyright violation: As far as I can see, the repository that is from is GPL 3
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04:21:42 <zzo38> Although if you are referencing something on the wiki you should specify what you are referencing anyways though
04:22:22 <zzo38> Also the buttons are different order from the Famicom order; you could use Famicom order instead, which is: A, B, Select, Start, Up, Down, Left, Right.
04:22:25 <oerjan> zzo38: repeating information that was said on the previous irc line is a little silly
04:23:41 <oerjan> now i deleted it, anyway
04:23:51 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, unless you are trying to clarify something, of course. Because there can be a lot of people and messages on the IRC, it can sometimes be unclear, until you read it a second time
04:24:23 <zzo38> Are we allowed to post messages on the talk page of a deleted file in wiki?
04:25:01 <elliott_> yes but I'll ban you (not really)
04:25:53 <zzo38> (That is, I mean if the messages being posted will not have any copyright violations, can it be posted OK?)
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04:35:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[File talk:CHIP16 controller.png]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39961 * Zzo38 * (+819) Created page with "This file was deleted, due to copyright violation (please post only public domain files here) (also the picture seem to have one extra dot). I can perhaps also suggest that yo..."
04:35:53 <zzo38> Now I made ASCII version is it better?
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04:45:16 <elliott_> oerjan: upon actually viewing the image, I suspect it is likely uncopyrightable
04:46:32 <elliott_> well, it is a very simple, non-artistic arrangement of geometric shapes and digits
04:46:54 <oerjan> the github code says it was from http://imgur.com/ExCAKZo btw
04:47:35 <oerjan> elliott_: well if you're sure go ahead and restore it >:)
04:47:58 <zzo38> elliott_: Probably you are correct, I think, although I made ASCII version anyways in case it help more.
04:48:39 <elliott_> oerjan: well, the wiki is no longer my legal liability :P
04:48:40 <zzo38> (ASCII version include text labels as well as numeric, in the order they are found in Famicom, GameBoy, NES, etc)
04:48:51 <elliott_> someone should just remake it.
04:49:20 <oerjan> elliott_: it's not mine either hth
05:24:10 <MDream> Send a description of the image to someone who hasn't seen the original so they can clean room reverse egnineer it?
05:24:37 <Bike> um what if the description is copyrighted,
05:25:33 <MDream> Don't use the original description, just make a new one based on looking at the chart?
05:25:57 <Bike> but the chart is copyrighted!
05:26:37 <MDream> Well yeah, that's why you send a desciption of it.
05:27:06 <MDream> I guess to be sure you'd need the lawyer times.
05:27:41 <MDream> And not someone who just looked at the WIkipedia article on clean room reverse engineering for a bit.
05:28:36 <Bike> i'd look at the article but it may also be copyrighted
05:29:28 * MDream copyrights the word "copyright".
05:33:56 <MDream> Wel at least that expires after 20 years.
05:34:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Slide]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39962&oldid=39949 * Zzo38 * (+319)
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05:41:15 <zzo38> What is the probability of winning/losing/draw at a chess game if moves are selected at random using uniform probabilities for each legal move, and no draws are used except for lack of legal moves and infinity of future is necessary?
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05:42:05 <zzo38> (Promotion counts as four possible moves, so it is four times as likely as another move.)
05:43:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[File talk:CHIP16 controller.png]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39963&oldid=39961 * Javamannen * (+171) Sorry for the copyright violation, and thanks for the tip!
05:49:52 <oerjan> zzo38: that sounds like the thing you could estimate by repeating it enough times, but which would likely be exponentially hard to calculate exactly
05:50:23 <Bike> And both players are playing like this, or?
05:51:05 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, it applies to both players. (Presumably, you do not actually play chess like this; it is entirely hypothetical.)
05:51:56 <zzo38> oerjan: I believe you. Perhaps it is easier if a variant with smaller board and less pieces?
05:54:53 <oerjan> well sure. exponentially hard also become easy if the instance is small enough.
05:56:04 <zzo38> I think that it is possible to make up the "1 L" rule of linear logic out of the cut rule and "1 R" rule.
05:58:34 <zzo38> (There is the similar thing with the rules for bottom, too)
05:59:00 <oerjan> "for every polynomial-time algorithm you have, there is an exponential algorithm that I would rather run" -- alan perlis, as quoted by dick lipton
06:01:13 <zzo38> oerjan: Why do they have that?
06:02:50 <oerjan> because exponential doesn't mean _always_ slower, presumably
06:03:19 <redryder> you can get some serious approximations out to many decimals using taylor and mclaren series
06:04:05 <oerjan> redryder: for zzo38's problem? i doubt it.
06:04:26 <Bike> WHAT ABOUT AN ORTHONORMAL BASIS OF BESSEL FUNCTIONS
06:05:11 <redryder> besssel function, what are you trying to do build a nuclear reactor? lol
06:05:14 <oerjan> because the structure of legal moves is too complex to turn into an efficient formula
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06:06:18 <oerjan> redryder: what is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
06:06:24 <redryder> there are planets where the atmosphere is so dense, you can look straight forward and see the back of your own head
06:06:41 <oerjan> wait was redryder someone's bot
06:08:04 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
06:08:29 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*redryder@*.nwrknj.east.verizon.net.
06:08:29 -!- oerjan has kicked redryder You are annoying and speaking nonsense.
06:08:36 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
06:10:41 <oerjan> also, failing the turing test
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06:14:53 <oerjan> Bike: my default assumption is a rude chatbot...
06:15:09 <Bike> i'm not complaining.
06:15:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39964&oldid=39957 * Javamannen * (+530)
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07:15:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39965&oldid=39964 * Javamannen * (+12) 60 MIPS overkill?
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08:24:52 <fizzie> Perhaps it was a person pretending it's a bot pretending it's a person.
08:27:30 <zzo38> Could a programming language be made for testing random number generator quality and calculating probabilities and distributions, as follows: Have one "$" instruction for "toss coin", which can split a program into two states with half a probability. There is a finite states subset, and when not used it can cancel any probability which is "too small", otherwise it can calculate exact probabilities even in case of infinite loop sometimes.
08:28:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39966&oldid=39959 * GermanyBoy * (+0) /* Structures */ corrected name
08:45:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39967&oldid=39966 * GermanyBoy * (+470) /* Indentation rules */
08:52:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:SYCPOL]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39968 * Zzo38 * (+1550) Created page with "Another idea would be to fix it so that it will work even if the cards are placed in the wrong order. Such as, the division and/or section, and what it belongs to, must be men..."
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09:22:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Braktif]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39969&oldid=19938 * Rdebath * (+1065) /* Turing complete etc */ new section
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09:47:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Processor/1]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39970&oldid=13660 * Rdebath * (+26) Killed by DynDNS
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13:32:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39971&oldid=39968 * GermanyBoy * (+1110)
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14:19:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Slide]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39972&oldid=39962 * GreyKnight * (+297)
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16:20:29 <fizzie> Sigh, computers. My (USB, wired) keyboard does not work in the GRUB menu if a (USB) Bluetooth dongle is plugged in at boot time.
16:21:10 <int-e> BIOS 1 : fizzie 0.
16:22:05 <int-e> are they on the same USB bus? how much power does the Bluetooth dongle claim? Is there any left for the keyboard afterwards?
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16:51:37 <mroman> I see that as "Machines 1 : Humans 0"
16:56:35 <mroman> zzo38: what two states?
17:08:44 <zzo38> mroman: Head and tails, of course.
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17:11:23 <myname> what is the downside of Data.Vector as opposed to Data.Array?
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17:18:20 <myname> i didn't get arrays yet
17:19:29 <elliott_> or do index arithmetic manually
17:20:02 <myname> so i do a fromList (map fromList foo) to turn [[a]] into a twodimensional vector?
17:20:32 <Bike> a vector of vectors, isn't it
17:20:34 <elliott_> sure, though index arithmetic might be nicer
17:20:54 <myname> does it really matter?
17:21:07 <myname> it actually does not have to be
17:21:21 <myname> i can force it, but i don't want to if i don't have to
17:21:27 <elliott_> but indirection is expensive, locality is nice, caching, etc.
17:21:53 <myname> well, even without that it should be way faster than [[a]]
17:22:44 <elliott_> HashMap (Int,Int) is underrated, also
17:23:35 <Bike> rail has a lot of blank space, doesn't it? maybe a hash map would be better.
17:23:42 <Bike> or something based on the actual graph, maybe
17:24:05 <Bike> gotta lead the way towards esolang JITs
17:24:25 <myname> i want to access the cell at the current instruction pointer position
17:24:29 <elliott_> HashMap is nice because you can update it with less overhead
17:24:31 <myname> that's like the most used operation
17:24:47 <myname> rail programms won't be updated once created
17:25:55 <elliott_> then try vector and HashMap and see which you like more :)
17:26:08 <fizzie> int-e: A bit late, but the keyboard seemed to work post-boot. And the keyboard was in a (passive) hub connected to one of the back-of-the-box ports, while the USB dongle was in one of the front USB ports, but who knows how those are connected.
17:26:21 <elliott_> you probably want a boxed vector of unboxed vectors
17:26:29 <elliott_> which might get a little confusing
17:26:37 <myname> is hashmap faster at accessing than map?
17:26:55 <elliott_> HashMap is faster at almost everything
17:27:20 <myname> are they reasonably cheap to update?
17:28:43 <int-e> fizzie: lsusb can be used to find out
17:29:04 <int-e> fizzie: but as you describe it it sounds like a bug :)
17:29:37 <fizzie> int-e: The same system has trouble booting at all if I forget the USB card reader (with a SD card from the camera) connected.
17:30:16 <fizzie> I second Bike's suggestion about "something based on the actual graph", since I guess Rail doesn't do self-modification?
17:30:56 <myname> that might be tricky for an dedicated rail editor
17:31:07 <elliott_> myname: you just said it won't be updated...
17:31:10 <myname> hashmap is pretty easy to adapt for that manner
17:31:18 <myname> elliott_: i am thinking ahead!
17:31:54 <fizzie> A thinking head thinks ahead.
17:32:24 <myname> is there any advantage of Map instead of HashMap?
17:32:34 <myname> like, why is there even a Map?
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17:33:06 <elliott_> so it can do more efficient queries based on key order
17:33:15 <elliott_> HashMap is mostly just newer though.
17:35:44 <myname> does HashMap has O(1) access?
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17:37:26 <Bike> there's no reason you can't make a structure editor maaaaan
17:38:00 <myname> Bike: that may be true, but it makes things a lot harder
17:38:02 <elliott_> you don't need O(1) though probably
17:38:23 <elliott_> btw O(1) access and update are incompatible (for a persistent structure)
17:38:27 <Bike> you've already spent like half an hour wondering how to do text most efficiently. less thinking more making shit up
17:39:05 <myname> Bike: we profiled our code and the most time is spent looking up characters
17:39:14 <myname> i do think it's fair to work at this
17:39:22 <Bike> and that would completely disappear with a graph. bam.
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17:39:51 <myname> Bike: the code that looks up actually makes a graph out of the code
17:40:57 <Bike> also why is this in haskell instead of self-hosting, you terrible person
17:41:23 <myname> that was not my choice
17:41:29 <myname> we had to do haskell or c++
17:41:42 <myname> so i obviously chose haskell!
17:53:34 <myname> uh, i don't have any efficient way of getting the "size" of a hashmap, have i? (or any reasonable upper bound)
17:56:59 <myname> now i just have to write a function to convert that
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18:13:02 <myname> extracting something from the first line gets trickier, though
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18:13:21 <zzo38> Now I have a Redmine program for AmigaMML.
18:13:40 <myname> zzo38: i am not even surprised anymore
18:17:18 <elliott_> myname: a nested hashmap works too
18:18:56 <myname> i do think (Int, Int) is fine, this is one corner case that only gets done once per function
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18:30:05 <myname> okay, i will change to nested hashmaps
18:31:18 <elliott_> IntMap is also a thing but I think HashMap is faster.
18:31:44 <elliott_> though IntMap can do some specialised optiona faster, like Map
18:44:41 <myname> strange thing there is no [a] -> IntMap a
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18:47:00 <myname> should've thought of that
18:48:18 <elliott_> but you should probably use HashMap
18:48:40 <elliott_> it's faster than IntMap on the usual operations, unless that changed
18:49:16 <elliott_> HashMap should he yiur default map structure unkess you know why you'd need something else.
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19:17:55 <zzo38> Please tell me if there is anything unclear or any lies in the documentation? https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/attachments/download/353/amigamml.doc (it is a plain text, not Microsoft Word format)
19:27:57 <TieSoul> I made a Befunge-98 interpreter :D
19:28:00 <TieSoul> https://github.com/TieSoul/befunge/blob/master/befunge-exec.py
19:29:22 <myname> i assume toList from HashMap Int Char gives no guarantee whatsoever of ordering
19:29:32 <TieSoul> and I forgot to change a few things when refactoring
19:30:06 <TieSoul> oh wait you're talking about them above here?
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20:57:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39973&oldid=39965 * Javamannen * (-1711) Reboot & rethink.
20:59:37 <Sgeo> Right now this diagram makes no sense whatsoever
21:12:04 <^v> Sgeo, ur a diagram
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21:12:23 <Sgeo> Therefore, I make no sens
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21:45:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ndef++]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39974 * Javamannen * (+413) This is the programming language of choice for the Demiurge
21:48:31 <myname> Deprecated: "HashMap is deprecated. Please use Map instead."
21:50:39 <fizzie> Perhaps you're looking at the "hashmap" package instead of the "unordered-containers" one?
21:50:53 <myname> i thought i used that?
21:51:30 <oerjan> myname: look at which package was loaded by ghci
21:51:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39975&oldid=39701 * Javamannen * (+45) NDef++
21:52:09 <oerjan> that's a module, not a package
21:52:34 <oerjan> and there is no such module in unordered-containers
21:52:39 <myname> fuck it, i'll use maps
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21:52:52 <oerjan> use Data.HashMap.Lazy or Data.HashMap.Strict
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21:53:32 <myname> those aren't deprecated when Data.HashMap is?
21:53:42 <oerjan> no, those are from unordered-containers
21:53:53 <oerjan> module names are not necessarily globally unique
21:54:27 <oerjan> (unordered-containers comes with the haskell platform, so is very much not deprecated)
21:54:31 <myname> i will discuss that with people from the project
21:55:36 <oerjan> Data.Map will of course also work for just about everything
21:56:19 <myname> as far as i know, we are faster than the c++ team
21:56:44 <oerjan> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/unordered-containers-0.2.4.0
21:57:01 <fizzie> And apparently the "HashMap is deprecated" notice in the Data.HashMap module of the hashmap package only refers to the fact that it's deprecated over the Data.Map module *in hashmap*.
21:57:04 <oerjan> oh is it the icfp contest?
21:57:15 <fizzie> (Though the whole package is marked as deprecated in favour of unordered-containers.)
21:58:02 <fizzie> Er, I mean, the Map type in Data.HashMap, of course.
21:58:17 <fizzie> In any case, not the Data.Map Map.
21:58:52 <oerjan> actually the haskell platform version is still on 0.2.3.0
21:59:41 <oerjan> since the platform is about a year old. a new version is planned as soon as ghc 7.8.3 is out
22:00:48 <oerjan> oh not the icfp contest
22:01:08 <oerjan> myname: is this some other contest or if not why are there teams
22:01:33 <myname> oerjan: it's a software project module of our university
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22:49:42 <myname> okay, one last thing: if i have data Foo = Foo { ..., bar :: Map ... } and at some point i make foo{x=5}, will it copy the map or reuse the existing one?
22:55:22 <oerjan> at runtime, the bar field in Foo is just a pointer to the map, after all.
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22:57:25 <oerjan> it's not the kind of type that it makes sense to unbox
22:58:08 <oerjan> and even if it were, it would only happen with the right settings and a strictness annotation.
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23:10:51 <HackEgo> ` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ ? \ ¿ \ @ \ ؟ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ \ \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addwep \ allquotes \ anonlog \ as86 \ aseen \ bienvenido \ botsnack \ bseen \ buttsnack \ calc \ CaT \ catcat \ cats \ cc \ cdecl \ c++decl \ chroot \ coins \ complain \ complaints \ danddreclist \ define \ delquote \ delvs \ dis86 \ e \
23:11:17 <HackEgo> 1) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ 2) <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ 3) <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ 4) <Warrigal> GKennethR: he
23:12:34 <Taneb> `echo bin/oerjan # wat
23:12:40 <Taneb> `cat bin/oerjan # wat
23:12:41 <HackEgo> cat: bin/oerjan # wat: No such file or directory
23:12:45 <HackEgo> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
23:12:53 <Taneb> `run echo < bin/oerjan # wat
23:13:23 <Taneb> `run xargs echo < bin/oerjan # wat
23:13:24 <HackEgo> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
23:13:27 <Taneb> I learnt something today
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23:15:09 <oerjan> well, it's only been 14 minutes afaict
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00:14:17 <zzo38> Do you know about code generator generators and compiler optimizations much?
00:15:14 <Bike> i invented them
00:20:33 <oerjan> what, are you trying to steal Taneb's job
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00:47:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39976&oldid=39947 * Zzo38 * (+2491)
00:48:09 <Sgeo> Owned box values exist in 1:1 correspondence with their heap allocation copying an owned box value makes a shallow copy of the pointer Rust will consider a shallow copy of an owned box to move ownership of the value.
00:57:29 <Bike> Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
01:01:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39977&oldid=39976 * Zzo38 * (+35)
01:03:35 <zzo38> On the Famicom, SHIFT key is always toggle bit4 of the ASCII code. Why didn't they design the PC keyboard like this?
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01:09:20 <zzo38> Does this implementation looks like correct to you? cmpv : (*a |- $1(*b); *a |- $1(*c); *a |- $1(*d)) / ($1(|\|), $2(|\|), *a |- $3(*b), $4(*c), $5(*d)); cmpv = [bb,cc,dd/x,y,b,c,d] cmp (bb b) (cc c) (dd d) x y;
01:16:44 <zzo38> I hink one way you could make alias analysis is just to mark some variables as aliased, and then any one that is aliased can be read/write through pointers and it then considers that any or all of them may be read/write at such a time; all others are never aliased.
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02:37:50 <Sgeo> Bike: I blame Rust docs
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03:22:14 <Sgeo> http://play.golang.org/p/otMa6pWhnZ
03:22:23 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> So the interface value itself exists but points to nil?
03:22:23 <Sgeo> <hyphenated> correct
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03:48:43 <zzo38> How commonly are used MediaWiki templates that take names of other templates as parameters? I have done this ones, to make separate data and format templates, for the purpose of making comparison charts.
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05:38:50 <Sgeo> I should reimplement Braintrust in a Common Lisp
05:38:54 <Sgeo> Specifically Clozure CL probably
05:39:14 <Sgeo> I don't think SBCL is suitable for this program. How often does THAT occur, needing a specific CL implementation?
05:40:24 <Sgeo> I wonder if that would be considered cheating
05:47:08 <Sgeo> We may need a language unusually good at implementing Braintrust-like languages
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06:13:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39978&oldid=39977 * Zzo38 * (+175)
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06:35:25 <zzo38> Once I did a "uniform Huffman" coding: Figure out the largest odd factor of the number of symbols (shift right the number until you get an odd number). Now make a Huffman coding using that many symbols with equal probabilities. That is then used to encode each symbol, followed by the extra bits.
06:36:20 <zzo38> It can be used if you do not know the actual frequencies.
06:37:42 <zzo38> It doesn't quite result in best compression, although it is simple and causes each symbol represented by a bit sequence.
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07:24:07 <zzo38> I can think of another kind of betting structure for poker, which is "over-pot-limit", which means pot-limit plus a constant.
07:26:01 <zzo38> Similarly, you can make pot-limit minus a constant if you like to do so, or double-pot-limit, or other variants, for example you have to use prime numbers.
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07:56:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39979&oldid=39967 * GermanyBoy * (+482) /* The structure of the program */
07:57:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39980&oldid=39979 * GermanyBoy * (-1) /* PROGRAM CODE DIVISION */
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08:23:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39981&oldid=39980 * GermanyBoy * (+776) /* Standard SYCPOL formatting rules */ character set
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08:25:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39982&oldid=39981 * GermanyBoy * (+0) /* System cards */ that is true, my (work in progress) card machine accepts only SSC-M1.
08:27:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39983&oldid=39982 * GermanyBoy * (+0) /* IMPORTS DIVISION */ prefix
09:46:59 <fizzie> Aw, the cafe-with-3D-printers next door is closed for the summer. :/
09:50:30 <fizzie> And the "urban workshop" (also with 3D printers) hosted by the city library closes for summer... today. Good timing.
09:51:44 <fizzie> "NOW AT AALTO FABLAB: FabLab is on summer break until August." come *on*
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09:58:04 <Taneb> fizzie, what kind of cafe has 3D printers!?
09:59:51 <fizzie> Taneb: It's a university student kind of thing, http://addlab.aalto.fi/social-space/add-cafe
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10:01:00 <fizzie> They did some kind of 3D printing workshops, though this is not terribly well documented in the interwebs.
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11:54:46 <slereah> conehead reminds me of why Dan Akroyd is such a weird anomaly
11:55:01 <slereah> He made like two great movies and everything else is Coneheads and worse
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13:15:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39984&oldid=39983 * GermanyBoy * (+2129) fibonacci sequence and RS-SYCPOL
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13:17:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39985&oldid=39978 * GreyKnight * (+2453) /* A suggested memory map */ new section
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18:04:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DoubleFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39986&oldid=37799 * 89.136.163.78 * (+1733) added interpreter
18:06:20 <Bicyclidine> how many languages match *fuck* but are not based on brainfuck
18:06:52 <ais523_> it's based on brainfuck in the sense that it explicitly isn't based on brainfuck
18:07:01 <ais523_> if brainfuck didn't exist, it couldn't be
18:07:12 <Bicyclidine> you mean Most ever Brainfuckiest Fuck you Brain fucker Fuck?
18:07:14 <elliott_> also Not a brainfuck derivative, questionably
18:07:42 <Bicyclidine> i thought it was a parody of the "brainfuck after weird obfuscation" ones.
18:08:04 <elliott_> still not much of a bf derivative
18:25:49 <zzo38> I can think that many Forth commands can be compiled into series of Z-machine instructions, however a lot of optimization can be possible to not always use the stack, as well as to keep a "compiler stack" during optimization of each basic block to determine types of each data further allowing optimization before code generation.
18:29:29 <zzo38> For example, DUP becomes [VALUES 0 >0], DROP becomes [FSTACK] or [ICALL2 0 *0], 1+ becomes [INC 0], and DROP DROP DROP 0 becomes [CALL 0 *0 *0 *0 >0].
18:30:53 <zzo38> Pushes onto stack which are known to be dropped can be replaced by stores into dead non-aliased variables.
18:33:21 <ais523_> compiling Forth sort-of seems to miss the point, to me
18:33:34 <ais523_> the sort of compilation Forth does as it executse is fine
18:33:43 <zzo38> Other things are possible for example . becomes [PRINTN *0], TYPE becomes [PRINT *0], SDESC can mean [PRINTD *0].
18:33:46 <ais523_> btw, did anyone ever finish off that /bin/false exploit?
18:34:17 <zzo38> ais523_: I mean it would compile into intermediate code as it executes, and then any intermediate code which is not dead is compiled into Z-machine code.
18:36:08 <zzo38> I believe Z-machine codes [POP 0] is like the Forth code called NIP
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18:39:10 <zzo38> Another idea I have is that the compiler stack (this is separate from the Forth compiler stack; it is a stack used for converting intermediate code) can tell what is booleans and therefore to generate predicate instructions which directly branch in such a case instead of pushing 1 or 0 into the stack.
18:40:30 <zzo38> However I don't know perfectly about these kind of code generation so maybe I need help. Do you know it any better to describe what is wrong with it and so on?
18:43:32 <zzo38> Would use of scanner generators and parser generators help if they are modified to be used for code generation somehow?
18:50:19 <zzo38> How would peephole optimizer generators work?
18:54:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39987&oldid=39973 * Javamannen * (+3655) Less Fluff, more Stuff
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19:13:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39988&oldid=39984 * GermanyBoy * (+22) /* Fibonacci sequence */ fix
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19:22:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39989&oldid=39985 * Javamannen * (+587)
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19:33:18 <Melvar> I am amused by today’s Codeless Code.
19:33:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:GermanyBoy]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39990&oldid=39944 * GermanyBoy * (+1) /* Non-esoteric languages */
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19:44:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39991&oldid=39989 * Javamannen * (+227) How about SYCPOL?
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20:41:40 <fizzie> You folks are the kind of people who are knowledgeable about 3D printing, right?
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20:43:09 <Bicyclidine> I read a science fiction story involving 3d printers, once. so es.
20:45:35 <fizzie> Okay, good. I need a piece of plastic in a particular shape, and there's a 3D printer in the local library that I think prints PLA, but I have no idea what the appropriate wall thickness is so that it doesn't crumble when I look at it wrong, but on the other hand is not overly wasteful and slow to print.
20:47:04 <Bicyclidine> i assume this is a middle layer of space ship plating, so i'm going to recommend at least 50 cm thick for dealing with micrometeoroid impacts
20:47:20 <fizzie> Thank you, that was useful.
20:47:49 <Bicyclidine> seriously though i imagine that's just structural engineering? and depends on, e.g., the forces this thing is subjected to.
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20:52:16 <fizzie> AIUI, the current (cheap) printers are kind of fiddly and slow, and can't print all things that should theoretically be possible.
20:55:35 <fowl> aiui = as i understand it?
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21:40:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39992&oldid=39991 * Javamannen * (+1799) /* More ideas (of zzo38) */ My replies regarding alternative video and audio modes
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22:48:18 <boily> hellørjan, Tannelle, quinthellopia, fowello, hellooodl, fungellot!
22:51:36 <boily> oerjan: hvor er du?
22:51:49 <boily> shachaf: nice one. I'll have to steal it.
22:52:25 <oerjan> more precisely, in my apartment
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22:53:12 <boily> aaaaaand once againd google translate is completely off. I input «comment ça va?», and I think I got something to the effect of “where are you?”
22:53:49 <nooodl> maybe "how" and "where" are the same word in norsk??
22:53:56 <oerjan> the other would be "hvordan går det?"
22:54:24 <oerjan> nooodl: only in the "how much" sense
22:54:50 <boily> nooodl: if how and where are the same, it must make for very interesting rounds of Cluedo!
22:57:39 <oerjan> hm it makes the same mistake if you go via english, "how are you?" -> "hvor er du?"
22:58:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Lethosor]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39993&oldid=36507 * Lethosor * (-484) blank
22:59:07 * oerjan gives gt a suggestion edit
23:00:58 <oerjan> of course this is also a phrase where translating each word literally form english to norwegian is completely wrong. interestingly, directly from french would not be.
23:02:13 <FireFly> I've found that some phrases give blatantly wrong suggestions, probably because of malicious "suggestions" for better translations I suppose
23:02:44 <oerjan> well scratch that, the translation for "va" uses the entirely wrong sense of the word
23:03:49 <MDude> Just point lasers at the target of your question and display an ID card on your holo-screen while angrily beeping.
23:04:47 <MDude> Wow I thoguht I'd said something since six days ago, but I guess not.
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23:20:34 <oerjan> <fizzie> And the "urban workshop" (also with 3D printers) hosted by the city library closes for summer... today. Good timing. <-- your tiny robot takeover of the world will just have to wait, alas.
23:22:35 <fizzie> Don't celebrate too early, the two other branch libraries with 3D printers (here in Espoo) seem to be open.
23:23:11 <shachaf> fizzie is taking over the world?
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23:23:26 <fizzie> 7msg fungot I'll have to go to sleep now, but you keep working on the tiny killer robot design, okay?
23:23:27 <fungot> fizzie: how do you mean? don't i also have my
23:23:38 <oerjan> what else would you be needing 3d printers for, duh
23:24:14 <shachaf> makes more sense when you see http://frontype.com/keyboarding/540px-Computer-keyboard-Sweden.svg.png hth
23:24:49 <fizzie> Oh, I guess that joke doesn't translate well.
23:25:05 <fizzie> It used to be somewhat common on Finnish IRCnet channels.
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23:25:41 <shachaf> On my keyboard you can type / without pressing Shift.
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23:31:01 <Bicyclidine> ooh, ¤ has higher priority than $ or £, eh
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23:48:54 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/29i10s/the_history_of_php_archives_phar_files/
23:49:01 <Sgeo> I...think I'm going to have nightmares
23:49:25 <Bicyclidine> You should get nightmares from popular science-fiction film "Alien" instead.
23:50:45 <Sgeo> I haven't seen popular science-fiction film "Alien"
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23:53:01 <Bicyclidine> it's good. sfx still hold up after the years. very straightforward: here is this freudian monster thing. it is scary. there, that's the plot. simple!
23:53:18 <Sgeo> Why does Rust both move and copy things? Why not just move?
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23:53:33 <Sgeo> Or are variables supposed to.. hold values at one place, or something?
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23:54:10 <Bicyclidine> i do not understand this line of questioning
23:55:14 <Sgeo> struct foo {blah: int8}; let x = foo {blah: 0}; let y = x; // If I understand correctly, x is dead, but its value has been copied over to y
23:56:53 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+2591 LIGHT SHADE] [U+2592 MEDIUM SHADE] [U+2593 DARK SHADE] [U+2588 FULL BLOCK] [U+2593 DARK SHADE] [U+2592 MEDIUM SHADE] [U+2591 LIGHT SHADE] [U+0020 SPACE]
23:57:56 <oerjan> Bicyclidine: there is more plot than that hth
23:58:19 <Sgeo> I'm also tempted to try playing Rust-the-game