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01:55:19 <Sgeo> pub fn drop<T>(_x: T) { }
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04:01:25 <Sgeo> "Yay, more of C++'s good ideas being ported over. This is the only other language I've heard of that actually realizes how amazing RAII is."
04:02:07 <Bike> "No class is established by its own action, even though its ascent is organized and accompanied by a conscious struggle. This holds true for the new class in Communism."
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04:55:06 <Sgeo> ICE: http://is.gd/k9RWn9
04:55:51 <Bike> intrusion countermeasure electronics
04:56:04 <Bike> good job, though
05:01:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39994&oldid=39938 * 204.16.68.130 * (+10)
05:02:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[C++]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39995 * 204.16.68.130 * (+8) Created page with "Fuck C++"
05:03:07 <Bike> incredible satire
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05:12:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ehird * deleted "[[C++]]": I can't wait for the third time I delete this page
05:12:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39996&oldid=39994 * Ehird * (-10) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/204.16.68.130|204.16.68.130]] ([[User talk:204.16.68.130|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:GermanyBoy|GermanyBoy]]
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07:06:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Isaacg * New user account
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07:48:33 <Taneb> Goooooooooooood morning
07:49:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pyth]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39997 * Isaacg * (+1705) Created page
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07:52:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pyth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39998&oldid=39997 * Isaacg * (+334)
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07:57:18 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl \ $_ = (join " ", @ARGV) || `words`; s/^\s+|\s+$//g; print "Hi $_. "; if (/[aeiouyAEIOUY]/) { s/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/H/; } else { s/^./H/; } print "$_.";
07:57:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hii: not found
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08:19:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pyth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39999&oldid=39998 * Isaacg * (+108) Adding link to compiler
08:19:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40000&oldid=39992 * GermanyBoy * (+269) /* Esoteric language for ROM interpreter? */
08:22:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pyth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40001&oldid=39999 * Isaacg * (+44)
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11:31:01 <idris-bot> P (DCon 0 0) (NS (UN "Z") ["Nat", "Prelude"]) (P (TCon 0 0) (NS (UN "Nat") ["Nat", "Prelude"]) Erased) : TT
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13:24:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40002&oldid=39988 * GermanyBoy * (+1160) /* Terminology, System cards and System card machines */ new sections
13:33:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40003&oldid=40002 * GermanyBoy * (+190) /* Imperative code */ FIRST and LAST expressions
13:38:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40004&oldid=40003 * GermanyBoy * (+98) /* LAYOUT DIVISION */ reserved words
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15:06:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40005&oldid=39883 * Maxdefolsch * (+235) /* Optimizing implementations */ Simple BrainFuck Interpreter
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16:17:24 <mroman> well.... they've requested an A for my bachelor thesis :)
16:18:34 <mroman> (A's require formal approval from the university)
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16:19:26 <mroman> (i.e. profs can't giv you an A without approval of the university)
16:20:20 <mroman> (Assuming A is the highest possible mark)
16:20:34 <mroman> We conventiently use numbers :)
16:23:08 <Taneb> mroman, tentative congratulations
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16:51:35 <boily> mroman: nice! and what is it a thesis on?
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16:59:51 <boily> quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAA!
17:09:51 <mroman> boily: parallel crowd simulation
17:13:51 <boily> this sounds modernartingly ambiguous...
17:14:32 <Bicyclidine> nah, you just say they're a liquid crystal and go from there
17:14:43 <mroman> It was about parallelizing a pedestrian simulation model.
17:15:58 <boily> makes sense. what kind of scale? like, a few millions here and there?
17:16:31 <mroman> The goal was to beat 15k
17:16:54 <mroman> however, that's on a grid of 10 computers
17:17:44 <mroman> thank you for misreading ;)
17:18:31 <elliott_> do you want your simulated mio to be lonely
17:19:44 <boily> all the parallonely mios, being simulated...
17:19:48 <elliott_> i'm arresting you for crimes against animes
17:21:10 <fizzie> We go 1-5 for master's theses, and I think 5 might've needed to be separately okay'd by some person of authority.
17:22:09 * boily slow claps with a pair of wooden cubes
17:22:41 <elliott_> is mio actually used for millions in english at all
17:23:37 <Bicyclidine> "as a unit indicator in the financial markets" supposedly
17:26:06 <zzo38> How common is a executable file smaller than a C source code of the program?
17:26:35 <int-e> . o O ( well-documented code )
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17:29:42 <mroman> elliott_: don't know @Mio
17:29:57 <zzo38> int-e: I am not so sure; 192 lines contain comments out of 1939 in total.
17:30:24 <zzo38> But, I think it is probably a good number of comments and that how many comments is a good number depends much on the program.
17:33:26 <int-e> zzo38: even without comments or large char array constants, a lot of things don't have to be larger than their C equivalent when compiled. x++; with some luck, could become a single byte. I've never really thought about it.
17:34:15 <zzo38> int-e: Yes, it does seem like that to me. I have also used -s -O2 and marked any subroutines used only once as inline.
17:34:55 <zzo38> In this case, the program is AmigaMML and the source code is 55353 bytes long and the executable is 45568 bytes long.
17:35:00 <elliott_> gcc is a lossy compression algorithm
17:35:48 <zzo38> Isn't it only lossy if you do stuff which is undefined?
17:36:02 <int-e> hint: don't try maintaining the binary just because it's smaller
17:36:02 <Bicyclidine> No. Like, it might not preserve variable names.
17:36:38 <int-e> whitespace, comments, order of statements ...
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17:36:59 <zzo38> Yes, of course it won't preserve variable names and that kind of stuff, although the program's function is preserved.
17:36:59 <Bicyclidine> You could definitely come up with semi-pathological examples that hit the pigeonhole. like preprocessor wonderfulness, obv
17:37:20 <int-e> zzo38: ironically marking the functions as inline made the source code larger
17:37:23 <zzo38> (Unless it is undefined)
17:37:30 <zzo38> int-e: Yes, a few bytes, I know
17:37:59 <zzo38> int-e: Of course I don't try maintaining the binary just because it's smaller; it isn't cross-platform, for one thing!
17:38:19 <int-e> you could write an emulator
17:38:24 <int-e> but yes, that was just silly.
17:39:53 <zzo38> Of course there are programs that run on emulators. When writing a program for Famicom I will use assembly language, which is of course going to be much larger than the binary (unless it includes stuff to generate a lot of stuff before writing out the ROM image)
17:40:34 <zzo38> I actually have two programs, AmigaMML and Amigasam; the second one has smaller source-codes than executable.
17:40:59 <mroman> GCC even copies part of functions to different locations afaik
17:41:19 <mroman> For alignment stuff and relative jumps etc.
17:42:06 <zzo38> Yes I can see how it helps. Due to optimization, it might hardly resemble the source-codes at all.
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18:23:15 <zzo38> Macros and cross-platform are two of the important reasons by optimizations are needed.
18:23:18 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/LdXG the attack of the Perl module dependencies.
18:24:18 <mroman> Who the hell rips german movies to provide it with chinese subtitles
18:24:47 <boily> people who have a chinese subtitle fetish?
18:25:11 <boily> (oh, look at that diǎn stroke, baby!)
18:26:47 <mroman> It's probably easier to rip an english movie and then provide chinese subtitles
18:27:24 <zzo38> I was trying to combine poker game with chess game, but now I realized, actually the way I need to do is different: combine poker with Sirlin's chess, shogi, and Washizu mahjong.
18:27:25 <mroman> mainly because the english movies are usually released months before the german one
18:29:58 <mroman> The fun thing about chinese characters is
18:30:12 <mroman> that they don't look weird anymore once you studied a language that has those
18:32:25 <zzo38> And also mahjong, which is also using Chinese writing on the tiles.
18:32:48 <zzo38> You can learn Chinese numbers and compass.
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19:29:36 <myname> what do i have to do to re-export methods from an imported module in haskell?
19:29:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40006&oldid=40004 * GermanyBoy * (+2451) /* Extensions, VISCIMs and other implementations */ more about RS-SYCPOL + implementations section
19:29:58 <myname> i am getting a series of strange linking errors and i do think it might be related to that
19:30:52 <olsner> probably not, that would give you compile errors about importing things that weren't exported
19:33:09 <myname> here are a bunch of messages like ".text+0x...): undefined reference to `projectname0zi2zi0zi0zi_ImportedModule_Importedstuff_clusure`
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19:35:15 <olsner> meh, clean and rebuild?
19:36:24 <myname> cleaning seem to do the trick
19:37:07 <olsner> it's the build-problem equivalent of turning it off and on again
19:37:40 <myname> ok, cleaning does NOT do the trick
19:38:22 <olsner> but you just said it did
19:38:41 <myname> they come up pretty late at compiling
19:38:43 <int-e> meh, surely there must be a way of telling aptitude to upgrade everything except a couple of packages without putting those packages on hold in a separate command?!
19:39:30 <olsner> synaptic lets you select upgrades individually, maybe the text-gui in aptitude does too?
19:42:27 <boily> are you referring to the staging screen in aptitude where you can review what's going to be updated?
19:42:50 <olsner> not sure, haven't used it in ages
19:48:03 <int-e> boily: uhm. ok, thanks, I feel stupid now.
19:49:53 <myname> i have no idea what to do with these errors
19:50:17 <int-e> boily: I guess the question mark in the [Y/n/?] prompt was too subtle for me.
19:51:45 <olsner> I always expected ? to just explain that y means yes and n means no
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19:52:26 <shachaf> boily has aptitude aptitude
19:53:12 <olsner> boily brings the cow powers
19:53:54 <int-e> and re: the aptitude text ui: "Play Minesweeper", seriously?!
19:58:34 <boily> aptitude is da bomb. have a debiubuntan machine somewhere that you need to update? bam! aptitude.
19:59:05 <boily> ion: I concur. the weather's horrible right now, and my AC is having trouble catching up.
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20:00:12 <metasepia> CYUL 011900Z 18009KT 12SM BKN055TCU OVC220 31/23 A2962 RMK TCU5CI3 SLP031 DENSITY ALT 2300FT
20:00:40 <boily> fungotting thirty one. July 1st. we're going to have one hell of a hot summer...
20:00:40 <fungot> boily: still at it, especially fnord is interesting and very broadly applicable discussions that never reach the wider audience they deserve.
20:01:31 <boily> also, a bunch of TCUes incoming from the south. it's gonna hit hard, if it does.
20:06:10 <olsner> now that I've checked what those cow powers are, I realized why I forgot about it since last time I checked
20:06:44 <olsner> fungot: what do you do to get rid of information you no longer need?
20:06:44 <fungot> olsner: emacs lisp for a while
20:07:22 <metasepia> EFHK 011950Z 30005KT 9999 -RA FEW008 OVC060 12/11 Q1010 NOSIG
20:07:53 <fizzie> They're saying twenty (20!) next week, though.
20:08:36 <metasepia> LOWI 011950Z 27003KT 230V290 9999 FEW060 BKN100 15/13 Q1018 NOSIG
20:08:49 <int-e> 26 yesterday, 20 today
20:09:08 <olsner> the other day they were saying that the russian heat is coming in, followed by the russian cold
20:09:30 <fizzie> `addquote <olsner> fungot: what do you do to get rid of information you no longer need? <fungot> olsner: emacs lisp for a while
20:09:30 <fungot> fizzie: i could never manage to use it as described in sicp to support backtracking, but it
20:09:31 <HackEgo> 1209) <olsner> fungot: what do you do to get rid of information you no longer need? <fungot> olsner: emacs lisp for a while
20:09:46 <fungot> olsner: yubn etc i mean that you are still up since the fnord and their ilk. if you wrote fnord for three hours. great way to represent lists until you have one? does danvy have one?
20:11:38 <boily> fungot: what's a yubn?
20:11:38 <fungot> boily: your keyboard does not know any better.
20:12:03 <boily> fungot: seems like yours neither, you fungot.
20:12:04 <fungot> boily: but i'm pretty much like some secluded grove. just say your grandmother is a pretty odd thing to say...
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20:13:37 <fizzie> Secluded grove is a very good description of fungot.
20:13:38 <fungot> fizzie: it would rock even more if i could
20:16:00 <myname> what to do on cyclic dependencies in haskell modules?
20:16:20 <Taneb> Break out the loop!
20:16:20 <int-e> write .hs-boot files
20:16:46 <olsner> it's apparently a new module system being developed in ghc
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20:17:00 <olsner> or an extension to the existing one, I guess
20:17:47 <boily> quintopia: I went once, in... eh...
20:17:58 * boily counts on his fingers
20:17:59 <int-e> https://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/7.8.2/html/users_guide/separate-compilation.html#mutual-recursion
20:18:10 <boily> quintopia: I think it was in '98.
20:18:25 <Taneb> Oh wow, I have friends who live on the West Coast now, in like Liverpool
20:19:14 <olsner> boily: you must have a lot of fingers
20:20:21 <quintopia> olsner: he has more than enough knuckles
20:20:29 <olsner> myname: more seriously, just change the code so that there are no dependency loops
20:21:53 <elliott> usually easily done, too, it's just ugly
20:21:54 <quintopia> boily: that was a long time ago. you should go again.
20:21:55 <myname> obviously, ghc is not mart enough to build boot files itself
20:22:58 <boily> olsner: I only use some at a time. I keep others filed in a cabinet.
20:23:35 <quintopia> boily: i could use some more. can you mail me a few?
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20:24:21 <boily> I wonder if customs consider spare human fingers to be in the same category as yak cheese...
20:27:51 <Taneb> National Novel Generation Month?
20:28:16 <olsner> boily: I do believe human remains (usually) have special custom rules
20:28:20 <Taneb> Is that a computer generated novel?
20:29:18 <quintopia> Dial R for Ravens is a computer-generated novel!
20:36:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40007&oldid=39886 * Rdebath * (+5641) /* Performance Matrix */
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20:43:44 <Taneb> Performance matrix of solidity?
20:45:22 <quintopia> it's the best performance matrix on the wki
20:47:02 <Taneb> Oh yes, that thing
20:47:31 <Taneb> I must confess I have not been paying too much attention to the the wiki recently
20:50:51 <ion> The four simultaneous matrices of solidity in each rotation
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21:55:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40008&oldid=39996 * 137.69.117.54 * (+11) Added Pyth
21:57:08 * oerjan is drawing a blank at the most recent yafgc comic.
21:59:30 <oerjan> hm the forum seems still to be working
21:59:38 * oerjan hasn't visited that before
22:00:36 <Taneb> I need more trousers
22:01:01 <oerjan> "When I try to go to the comic page, I get a lovingly rendered image of a polar bear eating vanilla ice cream in a snowdrift..."
22:05:14 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:2: parse error on input ‘|’
22:05:56 <idris-bot> (NS (UN "fromInteger") ["Classes", "Prelude"])
22:05:56 <idris-bot> (Bind (UN "class") (Pi (App (P (TCon 144 1) (NS (UN "Num") ["Classes", "Prelude"]) Erased) (V 0))) (Bind (UN "__pi_arg") (Pi (TConst BIType)) (V 2)))))↵…
22:06:30 <oerjan> are you trying to find the most expansive command
22:07:20 <Melvar> ( (\`(fromInteger ~n) => n) `(0)
22:07:20 <idris-bot> (input):1:27:When elaborating an application of constructor __infer:
22:08:08 <Melvar> `( ) is a quasiquotation, since a few days ago.
22:08:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: (: not found
22:08:29 <idris-bot> P (DCon 0 0) (MN 0 "__II") (P (TCon 0 0) (MN 0 "__Unit") (TType (UVar 6))) : TT
22:08:37 <idris-bot> here, expected: dependent type signature
22:08:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: (`(0))<EOF>: not found
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22:10:21 <Melvar> Indeed. The guy when questioned didn’t manage to come up with a reason that nested quasiquotes shouldn’t work. But for now they don’t.
22:10:38 <Bicyclidine> this is probably the most verbose quotation i've ever seen
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22:14:09 <Melvar> It’s the compiler’s internal representation of terms, with all the types and implicit arguments and universe levels and other cruft filled in properly.
22:15:02 <Bicyclidine> representation of syntax might be more... usable, is all
22:17:02 <Melvar> Not for the usecase this is for, apparently.
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22:25:09 <Melvar> There are a couple of things that allow you to use idris functions on reflected terms for compiler things, but pattern matching on the reflected terms is painful, so now we have quasiquotations to make it easy.
22:31:04 <boily> ~eval "Does it work? One two one two chicken"
22:31:05 <metasepia> "Does it work? One two one two chicken"
22:31:41 <idris-bot> P (DCon 0 0) (MN 0 "__II") (P (TCon 0 0) (MN 0 "__Unit") (TType (UVar 6))) : TT
22:31:49 <idris-bot> P (TCon 7 0) (MN 0 "__Unit") (TType (UVar 6)) : TT
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22:33:21 <Melvar> If we used surface syntax, overloaded things might also pose a bit of a problem.
22:38:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Smallfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40009&oldid=23595 * Oerjan * (-59) Remove erroneous TC categories, there has been plenty of discussion why this is _not_ TC
22:46:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Braktif]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40010&oldid=39969 * Oerjan * (+450) /* Turing complete etc */ Never meant to be TC
22:53:13 <oerjan> ironically, the HackEgo announcements seem to have made me visit the wiki less often because now i don't have to do so just to know if there is spam...
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23:07:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pyth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40011&oldid=40001 * Oerjan * (+20) some proofreading
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23:38:56 <Taneb> (this is genuine excitement)
23:39:02 <Taneb> (I've never used a dryer before
23:40:15 <Taneb> With a clothes horse
23:40:15 <oerjan> <myname> what do i have to do to re-export methods from an imported module in haskell? <-- module ImportingModule (..., module ImportedModule, ...) where import ImportedModule; ...
23:40:40 <Taneb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothes_horse
23:40:51 <Taneb> oerjan, idk, it's what they're called
23:41:19 <oerjan> ic. well the first google image looks similar to what i use, anyway
23:41:48 <oerjan> or well not quite, my corrent one doesn't have crossed legs
23:43:11 <oerjan> @tell myname <myname> what do i have to do to re-export methods from an imported module in haskell? <-- module ImportingModule (..., module ImportedModule, ...) where import ImportedModule; ...
23:48:14 <oerjan> in my childhood home we had a homemade drying cabinet, i think that was pretty unusual
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23:49:20 <boily> Taneb: you decadent bourgeois! you are oppressing me, a honest worker with only a clothesline, with your dryerness!
23:50:12 <Taneb> boily, I have saved up all my life for this opportunity! How dare you invalidate my efforts?
23:51:04 <boily> I don't believe in driers!
23:51:14 <boily> (I'm also jealous, but that's besides the point.)
23:56:06 <metasepia> ENVA 012320Z VRB02KT CAVOK 10/08 Q1017 RMK WIND 670FT 34004KT
23:56:54 <metasepia> CYUL 012300Z 22015KT 15SM FEW030 FEW120 BKN220 30/21 A2959 RMK CU1AC1CI4 CU TR TCU ASOCTD SLP019 DENSITY ALT 2200FT
23:57:29 * boily heimlichly mapoles oerjan, as he seem to be chocking on some foreign body
23:57:31 <oerjan> 30 degrees is not healthy for a norwegian
23:57:41 <boily> eh, it's down from 31!
23:57:45 <oerjan> foreign weather, to be precise
23:57:48 <zzo38> Some people play Washizu mahjong with only the transparent tiles and ignoring the teams and hitpoints, although I think the teams and hitpoints is important to this game too, as well as the transparent tiles.
23:58:12 <zzo38> If you are playing stud poker, then most of your cards can be seen by other people, too.
23:59:29 <oerjan> <boily> fungotting thirty one. July 1st. we're going to have one hell of a hot summer... <-- i'm sorry, but that's the only way to get you north americans to take global warming seriously hth
23:59:29 <fungot> oerjan: but yeah, depends on coding style.
00:00:08 <oerjan> basically, turn up the heat until you either admit it's happening or die. your choice.
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00:02:47 <boily> I am in a negation mood! I deny dryers and global warming!
00:03:07 -!- augur has joined.
00:03:23 <oerjan> way to make your fate being dying of drought, there
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00:10:10 <oerjan> `addquote <boily> I wonder if customs consider spare human fingers to be in the same category as yak cheese...
00:10:12 <HackEgo> 1210) <boily> I wonder if customs consider spare human fingers to be in the same category as yak cheese...
00:10:30 <oerjan> i have no idea why you said that, but it must be preserved
00:10:40 <oerjan> wait, it's obviously the heat
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00:11:41 <FireFly> boily: meanwhile, we have a surprisingly mild summer, and checking SMHI the whole country has been below average temperature for quite a while
00:11:48 <FireFly> we had a surprisingly mild winter too
00:12:49 <oerjan> our winter was burning cold
00:13:14 <oerjan> i did mention at the time
00:14:16 <FireFly> Here's what our december was like: http://www.smhi.se/klimatdata/meteorologi/2.1353/dailyTable.php?par=tmpAvvDay&yr=2013&mon=12
00:14:42 <FireFly> http://www.smhi.se/klimatdata/meteorologi/2.1353/dailyTable.php?par=tmpAvvDay&yr=2014&mon=6 here's the past month
00:15:55 <FireFly> The winter got more winter-y in january and february, though
00:17:02 <oerjan> for non-swedish reading people who may find those maps absurd, the colors are not absolute temperature, but difference from normal
00:21:21 * boily drinks a cold, cold beer
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01:21:45 <HackEgo> axtens: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:22:32 <axtens> some folk have a lot of time on their hands, going from the wisdom.pdf
01:23:15 <oerjan> but he got it from HackEgo's files
01:23:49 <oerjan> i added another one just today. by boily, fwiw
01:25:14 <boily> which time? what hands? my fingers are stuck at the customs :P
01:25:52 <oerjan> `` ? mad #this one might be clarifying hth
01:25:53 <HackEgo> bash: a: command not found
01:26:04 <oerjan> `` \? mad #this one might be clarifying hth
01:26:05 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
01:30:59 <axtens> logical fallacies abounding
01:31:35 <Bike> bounding from petal to petal with not a worldy care
01:32:30 <HackEgo> bash: fb: command not found
01:35:56 <axtens> there are some interesting phonetic spoonerisms in my city: Carabooda <-> barracuda
01:36:53 <boily> he's bypassing the The Question! already offering his approximate coördinates by himself!
01:37:55 <boily> I am shocked. I shall go to sleep.
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03:24:09 <Sgeo> Flashlight ad comes on, talking about how frustrating it is that flashlights can have dead batteries.... then talks about its product, and about its lens... wtf
03:24:46 <Sgeo> No mention of, oh, say, some crank to charge it, which would actually be relevant
03:27:27 <oerjan> i actually have a flashlight with a crank instead of battery in the storage room downstairs somewhere
03:28:03 <oerjan> s/downstairs/by the parking cellar/
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03:53:07 <quintopia> it may be relevant to talk about diodes and lenses in the context of dead batteries if your product runs at a lower power wrt light intensity than others, or drains less when it's off
03:53:53 <quintopia> it seems like i should be able to take a good LED flashlight and stand it up outside facing the sun and have it charge the battery
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07:17:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40012&oldid=36901 * Maxdefolsch * (+329) /* SBFI */ new section
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07:45:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Braktif]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40013&oldid=40010 * Rdebath * (+723) /* Turing complete etc */
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08:09:39 <fizzie> I went to the library and asked the person there about a print time estimate given the dimensions (125 x 60 x 38 mm) and structure (set of 3 mm thick walls) of the piece of plastic I wanted to apparate. Six hours, they said. Them printers aren't terribly fast. (Not a surprise.)
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11:12:48 <fizzie> "The Very Large Telescope (VLT) is a telescope operated by the European Southern Observatory --" "The European Extremely Large Telescope (E-ELT) is a planned ground-based extremely large telescope for the optical/near-infrared range, to be built by the European Southern Observatory --" "The Overwhelmingly Large Telescope (OWL) was a conceptual design by the European Southern Observatory --"
11:12:54 <fizzie> They sure know how to name those.
11:13:00 <fizzie> (Came across via SatW.)
11:13:19 <fizzie> Also amusing: the Overwhelmingly Large Telescope was cancelled, due to being overwhelmingly large.
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14:40:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DoubleFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40014&oldid=39986 * 89.136.163.78 * (-9)
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15:25:42 <Bike> http://codepad.org/3woDkIdi hells yea.
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16:21:30 <fizzie> That seems to need an older Perl than what I've got. :/
16:24:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40015&oldid=40006 * GermanyBoy * (+345) /* Procedures */ new section
16:25:09 <fizzie> It at least simplifies down to: http://codepad.org/N9yNyhnz
16:28:53 <fizzie> (Curiously picky, however. A $foo of ['x'] and ['anything'] both produce the version number, but [''] does not, and neither does ["x"].)
16:30:09 <fizzie> I don't know. Perhaps I should ask #perl.
16:31:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40016&oldid=40015 * GermanyBoy * (+609) /* The structure of the program */ DOCUMENTATION SECTIONs
16:37:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Twocode]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40017&oldid=39749 * GermanyBoy * (+20) /* Onecode */
16:45:00 <TieSoul> Has someone made a Befunge variant similar to Brainloller?
16:45:12 <TieSoul> Because I want to try and create something like that
16:45:34 <TieSoul> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainloller
16:48:16 <fizzie> Category:Non-textual should contain it, if it's been categorized correctly.
16:48:46 <fizzie> There are a couple of other image-based things (Piet, of course) but I don't think I've heard of a specifically Befunge-y one.
16:49:46 <TieSoul> I'm thinking of having instructions be based on the sum of the RGB values of every pixel
16:50:28 <TieSoul> so that you can actually have art-like programs
16:51:35 <fizzie> Piet is based on relative changes in hue/lightness, so you can sort-of have artistic stuff, you just have to be careful about it. (Of course strict Piet has quite a limited palette, too.)
16:51:53 <fizzie> I did that http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=559 thing with it.
16:51:54 <b_jonas> TieSoul: so you want some sort of image steganography?
16:52:51 <TieSoul> I mean, it'd be possible to have image steganography that way.
16:52:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40018&oldid=40016 * GermanyBoy * (+3) /* Computer architecture */ less repetition
16:53:52 <FireFly> You could base instructions on only the least significant bits of each channel
16:54:50 <TieSoul> That sounds really good actually
16:55:19 <TieSoul> although only 8 possible instructions could be made with that
16:55:30 <TieSoul> so least significant base-10 digit?
16:57:52 <TieSoul> Least significant base-10 digit of every channel sounds pretty good actually
16:58:20 <fizzie> If you only want the steganography thing without considering elegance or some-such, it's always possible to go with, say, least significant bits of 2x2 pixel cells; that's already 12 bits of data.
17:01:09 <TieSoul> Maybe (value % 7) for every channel? That'd make ASCII stringmode possible since there are 256 ASCII characters (right?) and 7 ** 3 == 343
17:01:27 <TieSoul> but that'd be the minimum for ascii stringmode
17:01:54 <TieSoul> It would also be annoying to program in
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17:04:59 <fizzie> Bike: zzo38: #perl explains that it boils down to $], which is an (old) special-variable for the version number; it's treating the 's in ['x'] as package separators (single quote is an old-fashioned replacement for Perl's ::) and then the package is essentially ignored for special variables, a misfeature corrected in v5.14,
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17:11:41 <TieSoul> okay, well, a base 7 image-based Befunge derivative sounds pretty cool :P
17:12:06 <zzo38> I have read about $] before. I think $] and those other special-variables are sensible features, although ' isn't and those other things doesn't make much sense to me
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17:14:26 <zzo38> What systems using AY-3-8910 are using the I/O ports?
17:16:13 <TieSoul> oh hey, a new version of Python 2.x got released yesterday :O
17:17:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: what? $] is just the perl version number. do you think of the old $[ ?
17:18:04 <zzo38> b_jonas: No, I mean $] I don't know what $[ means
17:19:11 <zzo38> The only use of the AY-3-8910's I/O ports that I know of is one that was never implemented or used anyways, which is this: http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/User:Zzo38/Mapper_A
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17:23:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40019&oldid=40018 * GermanyBoy * (+1) /* Terminology */
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17:26:58 <fizzie> zzo38: $[ can (or could) be used to set the index of the first element of an array to something else than 0.
17:27:21 <FireFly> that eerily reminds me of APL's index offset variable
17:27:50 <zzo38> BASIC has OPTION BASE which does a similar thing
17:27:57 <fizzie> $[ = 1; # look I'm just like awk
17:28:38 <zzo38> But I think it is only for the variables declared after OPTION BASE and you can still specify explicitly each one anyways, in which case OPTION BASE is ignored.
17:30:22 <fizzie> The Perl $[ = 1; is also kind of weird, because it's recognized at compile time. (And the assigned value needs to be constant.)
17:32:04 <zzo38> Yes that does make it weird, although it does mean you can read $[ if you need to, I suppose (if it allow you). BASIC's OPTION BASE also is at compile time and need to be a constant, if you are making a compiled BASIC program.
17:32:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40020&oldid=40019 * GermanyBoy * (+19) /* VISCIM-JA */ /'vɪʃ.kɪm.jɑ/
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18:36:05 <FreeFull> Pascal lets you start and end arrays at whatever indices you want
18:36:19 <FreeFull> And the index doesn't necessarily have to be an integer
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18:42:25 <zzo38> I think BASIC does the same although BASIC has no Enum types, so only integers can be used (although negative numbers are OK)
19:06:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40021&oldid=40012 * Rdebath * (+1131) /* SBFI */
19:14:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Newton]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40022 * Lucasieks * (+381) Created page with "The newton language is simple. We have an apple. @ This apple is launched by an tree. & And if it passes by an mirror, it is rebated. _ | / \ When it passes by an inc + i..."
19:17:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Newton]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40023&oldid=40022 * Lucasieks * (+12)
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19:19:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Newton]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40024&oldid=40023 * Lucasieks * (-1)
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19:23:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Lucasieks]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40025&oldid=39816 * Lucasieks * (-1047) Replaced content with "Talk with me clicking on ' ''add topic'' '."
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19:35:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pbrain]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40026&oldid=30622 * 84.87.64.182 * (+129)
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19:50:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pbrain]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40027&oldid=40026 * 84.87.64.182 * (+626) Added Tbrain, a threading extension of Pbrain.
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20:43:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40028&oldid=39987 * Javamannen * (-4108) Erase and rewind, 'cause I've been changing my mind.
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21:39:06 <metasepia> CYUL 022100Z 22015G22KT 15SM SCT045TCU SCT120 BKN220 29/19 A2975 RMK TCU3AC1CI1 SLP075 DENSITY ALT 1900FT
21:39:15 <metasepia> EFHK 022120Z 26004KT 9999 FEW040 09/07 Q1010 NOSIG
21:39:22 <fizzie> Yay, it's almost TEN DEGREES.
21:39:34 <boily> it's colder today! only 29!
21:40:33 <fizzie> Daily high forecasts for the next ten days are 18, 20, 22, 22, 23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25. So I guess it's going to be summer here too.
21:41:20 <zzo38> Do you like to commonly change your name in order to confuse yourself? (Not to confuse others, but yourself)
21:42:26 <boily> fizzie: we broke records yesterday. 33,2 °C.
21:42:48 <zzo38> I don't know what context.
21:43:37 <fizzie> boily: We broke records for June, too: the latter half of June was, on average, the coldest since the start of one set of daily measurements (in 1961) at almost all stations.
21:43:44 <fizzie> boily: "So much for that global warming!"
21:43:48 <boily> zzo38: like, getting a passport, applying for a job, playing some role plaing tabletops...
21:44:29 <boily> @tell oerjan <fizzie> boily: "So much for that global warming!" ← see, Finland June was cold.
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21:46:22 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Just the second half of June; overall averages across the whole month aren't that far off from the usual.
21:46:35 <zzo38> boily: Whatever way you prefer.
21:47:09 <fizzie> They had -6.2 °C somewhere in Lapland in Jun 17.
21:48:13 <boily> zzo38: I tend to be myself. it's a habit I'm tilling and nurturing, but sometimes I am also someone different, like when I am LARPING. I cease to be, instead becoming another un-me.
21:48:21 <boily> fizzie: preposterous.
21:48:39 <zzo38> boily: I mean your name, not your self.
21:50:29 <int-e> boily by any other name is just as strange?
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22:28:10 <metasepia> ESSA 022220Z 24008KT CAVOK 13/10 Q1010 NOSIG
22:28:38 <metasepia> ENVA 022220Z 29011KT CAVOK 15/10 Q1008 RMK WIND 670FT 28007KT
22:29:45 <lambdabot> boily said 45m 15s ago: <fizzie> boily: "So much for that global warming!" ← see, Finland June was cold.
22:29:45 <lambdabot> fizzie said 43m 22s ago: Just the second half of June; overall averages across the whole month aren't that far off from the usual.
22:30:19 <metasepia> EDDL 022220Z 07002KT CAVOK 13/09 Q1023 NOSIG
22:31:19 <oerjan> hah i guessed düsseldorf correctly
22:32:02 <Melvar> Only to such precision as an IP lookup would have told you, IIUC.
22:32:58 <oerjan> that was from the EDDL, not your ip hth
22:33:38 <Melvar> Yes, I’m just saying that the former is no more precise an indicator of where I live than the latter.
22:37:43 * boily goes getting himself passportly photographied
22:39:51 <oerjan> i think my passport expired this spring, i should renew it some time. of course i didn't actually _use_ it since i last renewed it 10 years ago.
22:40:42 <oerjan> also i would have to find where the old passport ended up after the move.
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22:44:29 <metasepia> CYVR 022200Z 12013G21KT 30SM FEW250 25/14 A2991 RMK CI1 TR CU SLP129 DENSITY ALT 1100FT
22:44:53 <zzo38> I do not understand a METAR code very well, unfortunately
22:48:58 <zzo38> I have a VCR/DVD with drive select, but it will not display the channel on the front display unless the VHS mode is selected (although it can still receive channels in any mode: VHS, DVD, SD, and USB)
22:50:07 <zzo38> So, I keep it on VHS when not using other modes, due to that. I don't know why it does that, but, that is how it does
22:50:58 <fizzie> At CYVR, second day of the month at 22:00 UTC, the wind direction is 120 degrees and speed 13 knots (21 knots in gusts), visibility 30 statute miles, few clouds at 25k feet, temperature 25 °C and a dew point of 14 °c, atmospheric pressure 29.91 inHg, and then some remarks ("RMK") I'm less sure about.
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23:02:21 <adu> why thank you channel, you're too kind
23:05:57 <adu> elliott: what is your favorite esolang?
23:08:43 <boily> fizzie: glad to see other METARdecoders in the chännel :D
23:09:30 <boily> (btw, 1/8th of the sky has cirruses, I forgot TR, cumulus, sea level pressure at 1012.9 hPa. density alt is something I don't understand yet.)
23:11:42 <adu> what is ///?
23:12:05 <fungot> http://esolangs.org/wiki////
23:13:21 <adu> // sounds like an abstract replacement engine
23:13:57 <adu> my favorite is Funge-98
23:14:05 <oerjan> the interesting thing is that it manages to be turing complete despite being so minimal
23:14:32 <adu> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfram%27s_2-state_3-symbol_Turing_machine
23:14:43 <adu> is also minimal, but it's not very nice to program in
23:15:08 <oerjan> indeed. it also requires infinite setup which is somewhat dubious.
23:16:04 <oerjan> Alex Smith is a channel regular btw, but not here at the moment.
23:18:27 <oerjan> fungot: you can discuss funge-98 with adu
23:18:27 <fungot> oerjan: eval ( let ( ( a b). so much crap to pick up... it doesn't really matter what the purpose of the language.
23:18:51 <zzo38> fizzie: Thank you for information
23:19:06 <oerjan> fungot: i'm not sure you're thinking of the right language here. i'm referring to the one you are written in.
23:19:06 <fungot> oerjan: people have a hard to find, fix, as in first in any kind of technology, just for future reference, you should
23:19:20 <zzo38> Yes it seem to me, the temperature is as hot as 25, but the temperature is not reaching the basement, so, it is OK in basement.
23:20:53 <fungot> adu: so, basically check the websites for every implementation for the hack value counts for something, and submit it as a lambda
23:21:15 <adu> can you explain "hack value counts"?
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23:32:24 <fungot> FireFly: if () is false. this means, if azeroth really is a triple ( interface, set of loops, etc, although it does duplicate work in a machine learning course and reading the book
23:32:43 <oerjan> that makes it perfectly clear.
23:33:09 <adu> me thinks it's not explainable
23:33:47 <shachaf> fungot: can you explain "that makes it perfectly clear"?
23:33:47 <fungot> shachaf: the sse extensions are fnord.
23:33:51 <adu> oerjan: lolol
23:34:03 <fungot> shachaf: using scheme can u run online websites with database es? was part of a
23:34:25 <adu> me thinks fungot is high on crack
23:34:25 <fungot> adu: not exactly something like that. but even real scheme :p.
23:35:55 <boily> fungot is fungot. there's one fungot, and then you stop counting because that's all the fungot there is.
23:35:55 <fungot> boily: i'm not talking about quality of sound here), and then at the moment
23:36:04 <oerjan> yep high on scheme sounds about right
23:36:04 <FireFly> `addquote <adu> me thinks fungot is high on crack <fungot> adu: not exactly something like that. but even real scheme :p.
23:36:04 <fungot> FireFly: ( originally it ran under any lisp system able to do
23:36:10 <HackEgo> 1211) <adu> me thinks fungot is high on crack <fungot> adu: not exactly something like that. but even real scheme :p.
23:36:19 <FireFly> I hope I got the formatting right
23:36:37 <boily> don't worry, I'll be reformatting it in no time :D
23:37:20 <shachaf> fungot: say something hard to format
23:37:20 <fungot> shachaf: unless you're using the db for data storage.
23:37:35 <FireFly> formatting a database is hard?
23:37:47 <shachaf> fungot: that's an unusual use of the db.
23:37:47 <fungot> shachaf: wait a sec... busy in another channel
23:37:58 <fungot> shachaf: i'm a zealot for not defining that semantics. but code using haskell's state monads state, io, etc
23:38:24 <adu> omg, I literally rolled on the floor, laughing out loud! roflol
23:38:55 <FireFly> fungot: are you trapped in a monad?
23:38:55 <fungot> FireFly: you might also take a look at it. he pointed us at plt scheme for inspiration: http://www.scheme.dk/ tmp/ fnord
23:38:55 <boily> adu: ♪ding♪ you exist in the Wisdom PDF!
23:39:15 <adu> boily: do you mean the Adobe kind?
23:40:00 <adu> boily: or do you mean the Poisson distribution function?
23:40:11 <HackEgo> 1127) <boily> everything is either zipf, branford, poisson, gamma, or uniform. outside of that, it's a weird curve invented by sadistic statistics teachers.
23:40:18 <boily> adu: I guess both.
23:40:42 <adu> boily: that is so esoteric
23:41:21 <fizzie> boily: I went and lookeded things up, and it was suggested that TR was for "traces" (less than FEW but more than CLR) of the related cloud type.
23:42:39 <boily> say, what are your approximate coördinates and body weigh?
23:43:02 <adu> boily: OK, KYPO, IMGTBAR, JK
23:43:09 <fizzie> And I got the feeling that "density altitude" is basically air density at the airport, denoted as some nominal altitude from sea level in a model.
23:44:14 <adu> boily: my coordinsssssss are Silver Spring, MD, USA
23:44:41 <fizzie> ^source (shameless plug)
23:44:41 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
23:44:48 <adu> I don't know my body weight, because I eat and poop, it's never the same
23:45:00 <boily> fizzie: it's something to do with air pressure indeed, but it looks like it's only a useful intermediate number for further calculations.
23:45:22 <fizzie> "the altitude relative to the standard atmosphere conditions (ISA) at which the air density would be equal to the indicated air density at the place of observation".
23:45:44 <fizzie> I was going almost solely on that.
23:45:51 <boily> something that confuses me to no end.
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23:47:30 <fizzie> It's a convoluted sentence; I'd've written it the other way around. ("Air density at the place of observation indicated by the corresponding altitude in terms of the ISA model that has the same air density.")
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00:01:05 <Layl> Hey, I'm just popping in to ask, I made a small edit to a wiki page on Pbrain to include an extension I made to it in my brainfuck interpreter, is that alright?
00:01:57 <Layl> The change I made is the added section "Tbrain" http://esolangs.org/wiki/Pbrain
00:02:44 * oerjan checks out recent changes
00:05:26 <Layl> Yes the code example is one big race condition, that's intentional
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00:09:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pbrain]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40029&oldid=40027 * Oerjan * (+0) move section later
00:10:19 <oerjan> although maybe it should be its own page
00:12:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pbrain]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40030&oldid=40029 * Oerjan * (+4) bullets
00:13:40 <Layl> Hm, I dunno, it's really just a small extension of Pbrain
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00:57:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40031&oldid=40020 * Oerjan * (+0) /* Procedures */ sp
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01:07:43 <doesthiswork> giving IPA transcriptions of the pronunciation of all the acronyms in sycpol is really a nice touch
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01:09:31 <boily> I like the feeling of “vishkimme” in my mouth.
01:10:13 <zzo38> doesthiswork: Yes, it can help
01:14:27 <zzo38> The Esoteric Standard Committee (ESOSC) aims to standardize esolangs and related works.
01:15:14 <boily> is the ESOSC real?
01:17:29 <zzo38> Read the instruction, and then see better if it is or not.
01:19:46 <boily> oh, btw, when is the brainfuck survey going to end twh
01:20:01 <zzo38> I am also wondering how I would ake a version of the Gentzen esolang for linear logic.
01:20:49 <zzo38> boily: I don't know if it is supposed to expire. I answered the questions, although I don't really like surveymonkey so much; you can just use SQL. After all, SQLite is installed on the HackEgo in this IRC channel now (at least, it was at one time).
01:25:39 <HackEgo> SQLite version 3.7.13 2012-06-11 02:05:22 \ Enter ".help" for instructions \ Enter SQL statements terminated with a ";" \ sqlite>
01:26:18 <zzo38> `run echo 'select 6*7;' | sqlite3 # Maybe it can be used like this? Let's see.
01:26:25 <zzo38> Yes, it is working.
01:28:13 <boily> `run echo "select '~duck duck;' | sqlite3 # On the off chance that HackEgo won't insert its evil space...
01:28:14 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
01:28:28 <boily> `run echo "select '~duck duck;'" | sqlite3
01:28:28 <HackEgo> Error: incomplete SQL: select '~duck duck;'
01:28:35 <boily> `run echo "select '~duck duck';" | sqlite3
01:33:11 <oerjan> "As is often the case with these questions, everyone would die." xkcd what-if in a nutshell
01:34:47 <boily> people should try to die less.
01:34:58 <oerjan> boily: i think the space is only dropped for alphanumeric characters
01:35:31 <oerjan> `echo lambdabot: @run 2+2
01:35:56 <zzo38> And, lambdabot will add a space in front of the answer.
01:37:29 <oerjan> there used be some loopholes in lambdabot's space addition, but i'm not sure if int-e has fixed them.
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02:08:35 <Bike> /exec sudo shutdown -h now
02:08:44 <zzo38> I suppose, whichever key is part channels in such IRC client.
02:09:09 <oerjan> Bike: the keys are like just next to each other?
02:11:40 <conehead> the "part" and "switch to next unread" are right next to each other
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03:28:41 <HackEgo> [U+0153 LATIN SMALL LIGATURE OE]
03:28:51 <HackEgo> U+3742F - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: f0 b7 90 af UTF-16BE: d89ddc2f Decimal: 𷐯 \ () \ Uppercase: U+3742F \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned)
03:29:15 <HackEgo> [U+0F00 TIBETAN SYLLABLE OM] [U+0F00 TIBETAN SYLLABLE OM]
03:29:37 <HackEgo> [U+BEEF HANGUL SYLLABLE BBEGS] [U+FACE CJK COMPATIBILITY IDEOGRAPH-FACE]
03:30:07 <FreeFull> Wait, U+FACE is the ideograph meaning face?
03:33:11 <oerjan> FreeFull: afraid not, it's just using the hex as an official part of the name
03:33:56 <FreeFull> Yeah, on its own it doesn't seem to translate into anything
03:34:45 <pikhq> And you really shouldn't use the glyph in question.
03:35:18 <pikhq> (the compatibility ideograph block exists because a codeset had redundant encodings. No, really.)
03:37:42 <FreeFull> I'm writing random english into the japanese input field in google translate and getting funny things
03:38:02 <FreeFull> https://translate.google.com/#ja/en/%EF%BC%B7%EF%BD%88%EF%BD%81%EF%BD%94%20%EF%BD%89%EF%BD%93%20%EF%BD%8C%EF%BD%8F%EF%BD%96%EF%BD%85%20%EF%BD%82%EF%BD%81%EF%BD%82%EF%BD%99%20%EF%BD%84%EF%BD%8F%EF%BD%8E%E2%80%99%EF%BD%94%20%EF%BD%88%EF%BD%95%EF%BD%92%EF%BD%94%20%EF%BD%8D%EF%BD%85%20don%E2%80%99t%20%E3%80%81%E3%81%AE%E3%82%82%E3%82%8C%E3%80%82
03:38:15 <FreeFull> On the other hand, it might be sleep deprivation making things funnier than they are
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03:55:26 <Sgeo> Looks like RES won the 'Disable subreddit style' vs. 'Use CSS to hide Disable subreddit style checkmark' war
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04:49:03 <oerjan> afair there's a preference setting even for those not using RES (i.e. me), although it would of course be awkward to change all the time
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05:06:06 <HackEgo> Arrows are just strong monads in the category of profunctors.
05:07:10 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl.
05:07:18 <Sgeo> Oerjan is legal, winning, and not fun.
05:08:45 <oerjan> since when am i an "i win" move in frc
05:09:52 <Sgeo> You are what you make?
05:17:11 <Sgeo> Besides, wisdom is inaccurate. If I can remember to add it at some point
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06:01:24 <oerjan> well, for _some_flood anyway.
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09:15:32 <mroman> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX1whI8hrMs <- ingenious
09:15:46 <mroman> they use background-decor to prevent auto-detection of copyrighted materials
09:16:40 <mroman> Somebody should investigate if you can somehow temper the video so that it can't be detected automatically but isn't visible to viewers
09:19:23 <fizzie> That's curious, the "New Executive Governor" of the Central Bank of Nigeria (he has a $35.9 million payment for me) has a @yahoo.co.jp email address.
09:19:55 <mroman> I suspect yahoo addresses are free?
09:20:13 <mroman> You would be dumb to pay for an email account then .
09:20:25 <mroman> Even if you have $35.9 million.
09:20:56 <mroman> How much is Nigerias BDP
09:21:07 <fizzie> I guess I naïvely thought the bank would provide email addresses to its employees.
09:21:32 <fizzie> Also I'm very sad that that YouTube video background never changes.
09:21:40 <mroman> or 262.2 billion depending on what system you use ;)
09:22:32 <mroman> Generally as a non-american non-english to things are confusing about english numbers
09:22:46 <fizzie> And I also think there is research on the topic of automatic content detection systems and how to foil them, and also how to make them better.
09:22:58 <mroman> it's "Billion" but for us Billion is actually much larger
09:23:10 <mroman> and it's not billion_s_ with a plural ending
09:23:41 <fizzie> Finland is a long-scale country (10^12 billion) too.
09:23:51 <mroman> fizzie: There's lots of research about watermarking too
09:24:05 <mroman> and how you can still detect it after images have been resized/compressed etc.
09:26:01 <Melvar> `` units 'square (beard second)' 'barn'
09:26:02 <HackEgo> Error in 'square (beard second)': Unknown unit 'beard'
09:26:45 <Melvar> How does it not know about beards?
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09:51:08 <mroman> fizzie: Changing Background probably increases the filesize a lot
09:51:37 <mroman> seeing as the idea of video codecs is to encode the difference between two frames as good as possible
10:00:18 <fizzie> mroman: I think they should do some sort of scene analysis on the video-in-the-video and change backgrounds on every cut.
10:00:30 <fizzie> (I don't know why I think that.)
10:03:44 <fizzie> There's a plain black border in the latest video posted by that account.
10:04:59 <fizzie> (Also it seems to be on top of the video, rather than resizing the video.)
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12:42:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40032&oldid=40031 * GermanyBoy * (+1118) /* Simple declarations */ new section
12:43:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40033&oldid=40032 * GermanyBoy * (+1) /* INPUT OUTPUT DIVISION */ devices
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13:57:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tweak]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40034&oldid=14442 * Lucasieks * (-9)
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15:37:54 <JWinslow23> I'm gonna try to make a Beatnik interpreter in Windows Batch.
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16:02:40 <fizzie> Hrm. Blender does http://sprunge.us/CIZX every time I uncheck an option in the STL exporter.
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16:04:24 <MDream> Oh no I dind't get here in time to say hi to JWinslow23.
16:04:32 <MDream> Should have gotten up sooner.
16:04:40 <MDream> Or checked here before having breakfast.
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16:05:03 <int-e> I didn't even know that we had a Winslow.
16:07:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40035&oldid=39845 * GreyKnight * (+98) /* References */ BANCNova
16:19:07 <MDude> @tell JWinslow23 Yes, a Beatnik interpreter sounds good.
16:19:45 <MDude> Also, looks like one of the Beatnik links needs Waybacked.
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16:26:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40036&oldid=39849 * GreyKnight * (+437) /* BANCNova */ new section
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16:51:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40037&oldid=40035 * GreyKnight * (+1044) make a not about "combination GOTO" (whatever that is), add some notes on prompts
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17:05:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40038&oldid=40037 * GreyKnight * (+351) /* Instructions */ prompt display instructions
17:07:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40039&oldid=40038 * GreyKnight * (+3) /* Instructions */ the one time I don't preview, I mess it up >_>
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17:28:17 <zzo38> Do you know what is the format for extension to .IT format which is supporting VST and stuff like ModPlug is? I want to write a new extension to the format which is compatible with such thing.
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17:33:16 <zzo38> Oops, my computer just stopped suddenly while some music was playing (the music stopped too).
17:36:44 <zzo38> Something else is going wrong too, attempting to terminate a process won't work
17:36:50 <zzo38> CTRL+ALT+DELETE doesn't work
17:37:27 <fizzie> "Description: Library for computing Fast Fourier Transforms - Quad precision" wowza, quad precision.
17:38:43 <fizzie> (I wanted to apply a small patch to Blender, and its build-dependencies include libfftw3-dev, and installing that automagically installs all different-precision variants of FFTW: libfftw3-double3, libfftw3-long3, libfftw3-quad3, libfftw3-single3.)
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17:40:57 <Bicyclidine> fizzie: i'm curious how different the variants are
17:42:00 <fizzie> FFTW_DEFINE_API(FFTW_MANGLE_DOUBLE, double, fftw_complex)
17:42:01 <fizzie> FFTW_DEFINE_API(FFTW_MANGLE_FLOAT, float, fftwf_complex)
17:42:01 <fizzie> FFTW_DEFINE_API(FFTW_MANGLE_LONG_DOUBLE, long double, fftwl_complex)
17:42:04 <fizzie> Exactly that different.
17:42:23 <fizzie> Oh, and FFTW_DEFINE_API(FFTW_MANGLE_QUAD, __float128, fftwq_complex)
17:42:25 <Bicyclidine> lol. i hope the download sizes aren't too big then.
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17:44:06 <fizzie> The __float128 is more complicated because apparently you can't just write "__float128 _Complex" to get a quad-precision complex number type, since it's a typedef.
17:45:11 <fizzie> You have to write "_Complex float __attribute__((mode(TC)))" instead.
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17:45:28 <fizzie> And possibly TC is also a macro for something, I can't be bothered to look it up.
17:46:08 <zzo38> Those thing is something I don't like about the complex numbers support in C99
17:47:48 <Bicyclidine> oh! did i mention i'm working with a C library that defines its own complexes
17:48:08 <Bicyclidine> and instead of a literal zero of some sort it does complexmult(0, complexexp(0))
17:49:09 <fizzie> Bicyclidine: typedef struct { float re; float im; } complex; typedef struct { double re; double im; } zomplex; -- <fft.h> of libfft of the IRIX module libcomplib.sgimath.
17:49:35 <fizzie> zomplex a, b; /* zombie complex */
17:50:34 <fizzie> Yes, it's just the zombie aspect that always amuses me.
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17:51:03 <fizzie> It's probably just borrowing LAPACK nomenclature, which I'm sure derives from some FORTRAN whatnot.
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17:52:38 <fizzie> Since it has function names of the form cfft, zfft, sfft, dfft for {single, double}-precision {complex, real} cases, and the first letter of the "XYYZZZ"-format LAPACK function names is S, D, C, Z for a {single, double}-precision {real, complex} number.
17:53:00 <zzo38> I think the Black-C way of making complex number are better though, than C99 and C++
17:53:12 <fizzie> Six letters for external identifiers should be enough for everyone, after all.
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18:01:23 <Bicyclidine> a vector existing across processors on a connection machine. or something like that, i've never used it
18:03:39 <fizzie> I think you mean "xrazy".
18:04:35 <Bicyclidine> as far as i remember the idea was that you could have a xector like [0 5 6 ... 93] on 94 units, and when you want to map (1 +) it you just send an order to all the units at once
18:04:55 <zzo38> O, that is what it does.
18:06:23 <olsner> might be fun to code something on a connection machine at some point
18:06:58 <Bicyclidine> you can get an ancient simulator from softwarepreservation, i think
18:07:23 <Bicyclidine> might be faster to write one yourself though :/
18:13:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40040&oldid=40039 * GreyKnight * (+3561) dug up more info on commands, operators, and prompt types
18:13:56 <diginet> I dunno if anyone has done this, but I was thinking about how cool it would be make a language that is literally written in egyptian hieroglyphs
18:14:42 <Bicyclidine> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Prisse_papyrus.svg ballin'
18:15:27 * Melvar installs a font for hieroglyphs.
18:15:39 <diginet> Bicyclidine: technically, that's hieratic, not hieroglyphs
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18:16:12 <Bicyclidine> anyway i'd just use chinese. people actually know chinese. and there are practiced input methods.
18:16:37 <Bicyclidine> plus you could have programs "pronounced" differently in different "dialects". fun shit
18:17:30 <diginet> Bicyclidine: actually, there's JSesh
18:17:39 <diginet> which is an open source hieroglyphics editor
18:18:11 <Bicyclidine> versus several dozen systems for hanzi, yes
18:18:14 <Melvar> I’m sure you’ve heard of that one arabic-based programming language?
18:18:15 <olsner> "At the height of their popularity, there were over 30 Connection Machines installed [...]"
18:19:08 <diginet> Bicyclidine: we're in #esoteric, the entire point is to be impractical!
18:20:03 <Melvar> On that note, cuneiform also comes to mind.
18:20:29 <zzo38> Yes now you can make Egyptian programming language too
18:21:04 <HackEgo> [U+13216 EGYPTIAN HIEROGLYPH N035]
18:21:16 <diginet> I think I should try my hand at writing an emacs mode for hieroglyphs actually
18:21:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Newton]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40041 * Zzo38 * (+114) Created page with "What are the conditional flow controls? --~~~~"
18:21:54 <diginet> Bicyclidine: what does that stand for?
18:22:02 <Bicyclidine> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_method_editor
18:22:38 <Melvar> I’ve tried to find a tutorial to writing IBus input methods a couple times and come up with nothing.
18:24:41 <FireFly> Wikipedia has a relevant list, actually
18:24:57 <FireFly> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-English-based_programming_languages
18:25:18 <Melvar> Oh, I’d forgotten about that one.
18:27:43 <FireFly> (well, relevant to the earlier conversation)
18:29:48 <Melvar> Oh, there’s also Lingua::Romana::Perligata listed.
18:36:06 <Melvar> Apparently that one language is written P′′ rather than P″ which I would have expected.
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18:47:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40042&oldid=40040 * GreyKnight * (+3449) /* Instructions */ Add vague description of file/table operations. No idea what a table is in this context.
18:50:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40043&oldid=40042 * GreyKnight * (+202) tweaks
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18:55:29 <TieSoul> https://github.com/TieSoul/Befunk/tree/master < The image based Befunge I was discussing yesterday
18:55:39 <TieSoul> Read the (badly-written) wiki :P
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19:00:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40044&oldid=40033 * GermanyBoy * (+515) /* (summary) */ Added that funny little thing that is on the COBOL Wikipedia page. Not sure if it is necessary, but looks nice.
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19:03:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40045&oldid=40036 * GreyKnight * (+419) /* more archaeology */ new section
19:06:05 <zzo38> Music for NES/Famicom can be made to use perfect tones if just intonation is being used (with 2A03 and some expansion chips).
19:06:39 <zzo38> With equal temperament all notes are detuned and higher octaves are more detuned, but with just intonation this does not happen.
19:07:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40046&oldid=40044 * GermanyBoy * (+6) /* (summary) */ mildly
19:07:21 <zzo38> I don't know, if anyone (other than myself) has used just intonation in such a game, due to such reason.
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19:08:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Randwork]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40047&oldid=39946 * 178.125.181.232 * (+104)
19:09:35 <GermanyBoy> is there any way to see who is online?
19:09:49 <TieSoul> I don't know which client you are using
19:09:56 <zzo38> GermanyBou: Use the command NAMES to see who is on the channel, and WHOIS to check their idle time.
19:10:09 <zzo38> How exactly you issue those commands depends on the IRC client you are using.
19:10:39 <zzo38> It says you are using qwebirc v0.91
19:11:00 <FireFly> Usually there's a list to the right
19:11:26 <TieSoul> I made that image Befunge I discussed yesterday :D
19:11:32 <zzo38> If there is such a list, try clicking on one of the names maybe then it tell you the WHOIS? I don't know.
19:11:53 <TieSoul> https://github.com/TieSoul/Befunk Here's the GitHub page.
19:11:57 <HackEgo> GermanyBoy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:12:10 <FireFly> You know, it might be a bit too colourful
19:13:28 <olsner> r(ainbow w)elcome, perhaps
19:14:19 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:15:03 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access $PWD: No such file or directory
19:15:13 <HackEgo> :-( \ 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ moop.txt \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ UNPA \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
19:15:52 <zzo38> Whic is more accurate in a C code, to make log2 and then times 12.0, or to logarithm base two to power of one twelfth?
19:17:07 <zzo38> Yes that is what I am doing.
19:17:14 <zzo38> And that is what I thought, too.
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19:18:08 <zzo38> However, note that I do division by 8363 before calculating the logarithm
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19:26:37 <HackEgo> UNPA: C source, ASCII text
19:27:10 <HackEgo> /* \ UTF-to-VLQ \ Public domain \ */ \ \ #include <stdio.h> \ #include <stdlib.h> \ \ #ifdef _WIN32 \ #include <fcntl.h>
19:28:36 <FireFly> `run gcc -o unpa UNPA && ./unpa this is a test
19:28:40 <HackEgo> UNPA: file not recognized: File format not recognized \ collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
19:29:12 <FireFly> `run gcc -x c -o unpa UNPA && ./unpa this is a test
19:29:54 <FireFly> `run ./unpa <<<'this is a test'
19:32:00 <int-e> `` echo Hello | ./unpa 84
19:32:19 <int-e> `` echo 48656C6C6F0A | ./unpa 48
19:39:14 <int-e> `` echo ÄÖÜß | ./unpa 0V
19:39:39 <int-e> `` echo ÄÖÜß | ./unpa 0V | ./unpa V0
19:40:26 <int-e> `` echo ÄÖÜß | ./unpa 8V | ./unpa V8
19:43:18 <FireFly> `` gcc -x c -o bin/morse-decode <<<'c, v = 1; main() { while (c = getchar(), ~c) v = c < 33? putchar("& etianmsurwdkgohvf.l.pjbxcyzq..54.3.;!2).+...,16=/:..(.7.?_8.9o\"...$...@...'\''..-"[v < 64? (v != 40)*v : v % 51 + 33]), 1 : v * 2 + c % 2; }'
19:43:19 <HackEgo> gcc: warning: ‘-x c’ after last input file has no effect \ gcc: fatal error: no input files \ compilation terminated.
19:43:32 <FireFly> `` gcc -x c -o bin/morse-decode - <<<'c, v = 1; main() { while (c = getchar(), ~c) v = c < 33? putchar("& etianmsurwdkgohvf.l.pjbxcyzq..54.3.;!2).+...,16=/:..(.7.?_8.9o\"...$...@...'\''..-"[v < 64? (v != 40)*v : v % 51 + 33]), 1 : v * 2 + c % 2; }'
19:43:35 <HackEgo> <stdin>:1:1: warning: data definition has no type or storage class [enabled by default]
19:44:00 <FireFly> `` morse-decode <<<'... --- ...'
19:44:16 <FireFly> I guess it'd be more useful if it read argv[1] instead
19:56:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40048&oldid=40043 * GreyKnight * (+387) /* Instructions */ data model commands
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20:06:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Text]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40049&oldid=37344 * 86.134.181.208 * (+42) /* Development of a compiler */
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20:27:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~-~!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40050&oldid=39953 * 130.86.34.144 * (-1)
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22:24:57 <oerjan> this yafgc outtake is lasting disturbingly long given that the owner already claims to be trying to fix it
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22:44:56 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> I didn't even know that we had a Winslow. <-- the Winslow is in us all hth
22:47:56 <Taneb> Help I have a bed in three different houses
22:48:52 <Taneb> That is, three different beds, each in a different house
22:49:11 <oerjan> darn and here i was about to suggest a dimensional portal business
22:49:50 <oerjan> especially if any of the houses weren't on earth
22:49:59 <Taneb> Also one of these houses is on Windmill Lane and I have NO IDEA WHERE THE WINDMILL IS
22:50:01 <FireFly> It could've been a very long bed and the houses could've been next to each other
22:50:19 <FireFly> That could open up a bridgekeeper business, though
22:50:23 <oerjan> Taneb: probably got bought and destroyed by some oil company hth
22:50:34 <Taneb> Oil? In Yorkshire!?
22:50:48 <oerjan> well coal company then
22:51:42 <Taneb> I don't think there were many mines in the York area
22:52:12 <oerjan> well then WHATEVER YOU HAVE IN YORK THAT DOESN'T LIKE "GREEN" COMPETITION hth
22:52:24 <Taneb> ...chocolate factory?
22:52:43 <oerjan> green chocolate might have some marketing problems.
23:03:36 <doesthiswork> potato chip makers aren't too fond of green things
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23:47:15 <zzo38> I have been trying to think of how to make a variation of the Gentzen esolang which is using linear logic, and cannot quite figure it out.
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00:06:13 <oerjan> i used to have knowledge about linear logic, but i gave it away
00:09:12 <HackEgo> [U+0042 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER B] [U+266D MUSIC FLAT SIGN] [U+2083 SUBSCRIPT THREE]
00:09:42 <oerjan> you know it's a good character when pasting it causes putty to stall while fonts are loading
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00:47:43 <zzo38> I am also using PuTTY but it is only using one font so it isn't stall while fonts are loading
00:50:24 <zzo38> Today when playing at Dungeons&Dragons game, they said they needed a 30d20 damage; instead of rolling the dice so many times I suggested to use my calculator; I did that and it did work.
00:50:31 <zzo38> (The calculator is TI-92)
00:51:03 <FireFly> have you made a dice-rolling program for it?
00:51:17 <zzo38> FireFly: Yes, I have in fact done so.
00:52:53 <zzo38> You can enter a dice notation and then it use that one.
01:01:25 <oerjan> zzo38: well maybe it was just part of the font that was paged out
01:02:29 <Taneb> :( my D&D group isn't getting back together until late August at the earliest
01:06:20 <zzo38> Did you win, lose, both, neither, or draw, last time?
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01:09:04 * ski idly notices mention of linear logic
01:09:23 <zzo38> ski: O, do you know much of linear logic?
01:10:39 <ski> well, a little bit, i'd say. not *that* much
01:11:20 <ski> (like i know the basic sequent calculus rules by heart, e.g.)
01:11:42 <zzo38> I know a few things; I can understand what the sequent rules are, but my problem mentioned above is not that, but rather what each rule, sequent, term, etc is meaning/doing in the kind of system I described above.
01:12:05 * ski hasn't really checked out this "Gentzen" esolang
01:12:31 <ski> (i think someone (you) mentioned it before, and i looked *very* briefly at it)
01:12:34 <zzo38> ski: Then see how it is working; it is classical logic, but I wanted to make up a similar things for linear logic.
01:12:50 <zzo38> ski: Actually I think was it on a different channel or private message that I told you it before?
01:13:10 <ski> possibly (and possibly it wasn't you. i don't recall)
01:13:53 <ski> (oops, i meant s/\(you\)/\(you \?\)/)
01:14:50 <zzo38> That's what I thought you meant.
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01:16:38 <zzo38> Did you look at it better now? Did you understand it at all by now?
01:17:16 <zzo38> (I also also aware of the linear logic sequent rules by heart)
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01:28:24 <boily> how's your night going?
01:34:37 <boily> like, little to no ambient light, crickets chirping, frogs croaking...
01:34:47 <boily> (hm. stupid question: are there crickets in Norway?)
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01:36:55 <oerjan> "If this is your second time through the comics in sequence, you might just be wondering about that cat now..." ok DMM you got me there
01:37:25 <oerjan> boily: i don't think so?
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01:38:00 <oerjan> it _is_ summer in norway though, the light outside would probably be enough to read by.
01:39:30 <oerjan> also, this apartment is pretty well sound isolated, except for some infathomable reason my bedroom window is the _least_ isolated place.
01:39:52 <oerjan> so hearing sounds from nature would be unusual in the living room
01:41:21 <oerjan> (none of this actually help when the builders start drilling in the walls or the neighbors' dog starts barking, though)
01:41:47 <oerjan> the dog has improved, though, it only does so for a short while at a time now.
01:42:04 <oerjan> and not in the night, only when the owners are away
01:43:04 <boily> that reminds me none of my neighbours have signed opera recently.
01:43:08 <oerjan> if i _were_ to hear any sounds from nature it would be birds, most likely seagulls
01:43:53 <oerjan> in my previous shared apartment the landlady for a few years rented out to an opera singer in the summers
01:44:48 <oerjan> (he was having a summer job at the neighboring ringve musical instrument museum)
01:45:09 <oerjan> istr he got a permanent job there when he graduated
01:46:19 <ski> zzo38 : hm, actually i'm pretty tired atm .. :/
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01:46:43 <boily> right now, the only sound suffusing through my appt is from the AC's fan.
01:47:23 <boily> sound that I should be wrapping myself in, on top of my mattress. I lack sleep, and tomorrow is an orange t-shirt day.
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01:48:29 <oerjan> @tell boily apparently one species, Acheta domestica, is occasionally found in norway
01:55:30 <zzo38> Is Hell at Norway?
02:00:53 <oerjan> zzo38: yes, it's just a half-hour drive east of trondheim
02:01:06 <oerjan> and next to the airport.
02:05:15 <oerjan> in fact someone once suggested the bright idea of renaming the municipality and airport to hell :)
02:06:02 <oerjan> then i'd be doing ~metar ENHE instead, presumably
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02:06:41 <zzo38> Would that make them change the airport code too, though? I wouldn't think that they would have to change the airport code anyways due to such a case?
02:06:51 <oerjan> for the heidrun oil platform
02:08:20 <Taneb> The closest weather station with public data doesn't have metarness
02:08:42 <Taneb> So I go to weather.elec.york.ac.uk instead
02:09:41 <zzo38> Taneb: Does it have an airport code though?
02:09:48 <oerjan> well for the actual weather forecast i go to yr.no
02:10:11 <Taneb> zzo38, no, it's on top of one of the buildings at my uni
02:11:42 <oerjan> somehow i doubt that ENHE is an airport, although they presumably have a helicopter landing area
02:12:17 <zzo38> O, OK, although then it still has an airport code even though it is not an airport, isn't it?
02:12:21 <oerjan> but if that counted then hospitals would get metars too
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02:25:16 <ski> zzo38 : i've been at the Godsexpedition in Hell, yes
02:26:26 <ski> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Norway>
02:27:30 * ski didn't know about it before visiting (passing by, changing trains or maybe to bus, iirc)
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02:32:14 <oerjan> i once had the pleasure of greeting an american couple with "welcome to hell" on that railway
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02:44:28 <zzo38> In the computer game "Super ASCII MZX Town", one area is you are at HELL, and there is a scroll lying on the ground that says "Hell is in Norway". However, it is a difficult area, with time limits, fire, lava, seekers, invisible people, and other things; and at the end of all this, they won't let you back out again until hell is freezing.
02:45:10 <zzo38> They have square pool balls in there, and there is also a telephone; however, it is the only telephone in there and only local calls are allowed.
02:55:41 <oerjan> there is very little lava in norway, actually
02:56:00 <oerjan> there's a volcano on the jan mayen island, far from the mainland
02:57:47 <Sgeo> "Isn't breaking the rules like, against the rules?"
03:01:24 <zzo38> I know, but, this is just a computer game anyways
03:01:34 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, but what about the meta-rules?
03:02:22 <oerjan> sadly ULES doesn't seem to be an ICAO code
03:03:27 <oerjan> "ICAO codes are also used to identify other aviation facilities such as weather stations, International Flight Service Stations or Area Control Centers, whether or not they are located at airports."
03:03:45 <oerjan> i suppose that somewhat answers a previous question
03:03:49 <Sgeo> Meta-rules: You are not allowed to follow the rules or the meta-rules.
03:04:08 <oerjan> Sgeo: i'm sorry that's a meta-meta-rule
03:04:27 <ski> hm, iirc, my brother visited Jan Mayen
03:05:12 <oerjan> UL appears to be north western russia
03:08:08 <oerjan> metar ULSS is in st petersburg
03:21:51 <zzo38> I would think that, the only way that breaking the rules is not against the rules, is if it is inconsistent, isn't it?
03:23:39 <oerjan> it can get a little subtle with games where you are allowed to "break" the rules as long as you aren't caught
03:24:26 <oerjan> then it matters what you interpret as the "real" rules
03:24:38 <zzo38> Yes in that case, it is allowed in some cases, but I suppose still it is sort of like a kind of other level of rules
04:26:04 <doesthiswork> I'm eating ice cream and just watched a movie about Gerta stealing her friend back from the ice queen. So when boily mentioned hearing an air conditioner I was like "wait, isn't it winter?".
04:28:57 <doesthiswork> sometimes I have trouble telling the difference between reality and what I see on the computer
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05:24:51 <Sgeo> There have been arguments in Agora about it
05:25:09 <Sgeo> Is it acceptable to break the rules if a penalty is specified
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05:27:27 <zzo38> Sgeo: In many games where it is like that, I have assumed it is acceptable if a penalty is specified.
05:28:21 <zzo38> Such as no-ten riichi requiring you to pay everyone in case of an exhaustive draw and otherwise it specifies that there is no penalty.
05:31:41 <zzo38> (However, some games do have rules that specify that the penalty for professional fouls is disqualification.)
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05:42:43 <zzo38> How would I do compression of pattern data in a Fasttracker file? There is patterns and then a playback order to tell which pattern to play. Basically the problem is this: I now have a sequence of rows, and need to place then into lists of rows called patterns, together with a list of pattern numbers, such that concatenating the patterns together in order specified by the order list (duplicates are allowed) results in the original sequence of rows
05:52:09 <zzo38> Would something resembling byte pair encoding work?
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06:03:54 <fizzie> Something pairwise would've been my first thought too, though I suspect it leads to something greedy that's not always optimal. (A similar approach "from the other direction" would be to find the longest sub"string" that occurs at least twice, and start from there.)
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06:06:11 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, OK, although what is the best way to do that, then?
06:06:49 <fizzie> You can find the longest repeated substring with a suffix tree very much like those used for the longest common substring thing.
06:07:31 <zzo38> OK, Wikipedia explains that.
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06:08:40 <fizzie> Though I'm not sure if that works for longest repeated non-overlapping substring.
06:08:46 <fizzie> Have to leave now, anyhow. ->
06:11:44 <zzo38> Also the effective length of each row may differ.
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07:11:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40051&oldid=40021 * Maxdefolsch * (+680) /* SBFI */
07:16:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40052&oldid=40051 * Maxdefolsch * (+301)
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07:37:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tweak]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40053&oldid=40034 * Oerjan * (+12) I have no idea how this works, which means it's still a stub.
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07:49:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Text]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40054&oldid=40049 * Oerjan * (-10) /* Development of a compiler */ count, fmt, link, avoid going off tape
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08:25:36 * ski idly wonders whether zzo38 has any favourite module zaks
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09:32:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40055&oldid=40007 * Rdebath * (+626) /* Performance Matrix */
09:33:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40057&oldid=40052 * Rdebath * (+1948) /* SBFI */
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11:02:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40058&oldid=40057 * Maxdefolsch * (+357)
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13:40:27 <myname> so we are staring at this haskell code with IORefs to Maps
13:40:49 <myname> cmap <- readIORef cMapRef
13:41:14 <myname> let cmap = Map.insert foo bar cmap
13:41:28 <myname> writeIORef cMapRef cmap
13:41:37 <myname> which fails at a later lookup
13:42:02 <myname> writeIORef cMapRef (Map.insert foo bar cmap) works just fine
13:43:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40059&oldid=40058 * Rdebath * (+359) /* SBFI */
13:52:35 <elliott> it would help if you told us the error
13:53:55 <fizzie> I'm somewhat suspicious of the let x = f x part, but I'm not really a Haskellist.
13:57:52 <fizzie> I mean, compare and contrast:
13:58:03 <fizzie> > do { x <- return [1]; let { y = 1:x }; return y } :: Maybe [Int]
13:58:09 <fizzie> > do { x <- return [1]; let { x = 1:x }; return x } :: Maybe [Int]
13:58:11 <lambdabot> Just [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,...
13:59:53 <fizzie> (Your code seems to expect the "cmap" on the left side of the let be different from the "cmap" on the right side.)
14:01:26 <myname> that makes totally sense
14:01:39 <myname> so the insert is lazy, too?
14:02:05 <myname> i.e. the insert will only be done once i make a lookup?
14:05:20 <elliott> oh I totally missed the error
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14:50:57 <HackEgo> memfrcoin lola/mcoin regischesecoin lartacoin gundalucoin theolacoin cellcoin baldinicoin obtcoin includercoin mcfarcoin crtlingcoin bfjousewecoin raagcoin 3cacoin scercoin schroupsillcoin norfcoin etencoin ovecoin
14:51:14 <b_jonas> I'd like a lolcat coins style and a BANCStar coins style
14:58:38 <MDude> What are these hackego coins?
15:01:23 <fizzie> Suggestions for new cryptocurrency names.
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15:04:20 <int-e> bfjousewe is interesting
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15:27:58 <impomatic_> Bacoin would be the best new cryptocurrency name.
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15:57:08 <MDude> BANCStar coins would be a nice choice thematically.
15:58:34 <fizzie> It's like bitcoin except the scripts are in javascript?
15:58:56 <newsham> i'm just the big picture guy
15:59:00 <newsham> you guys can work out the details
15:59:08 <MDude> I expect that's end up pronoucned "jus' coin".
15:59:47 <newsham> you run it in nodejs compiled to jsasm running in v8
16:10:05 <zzo38> ski: Sorry I did not answer your question about "module zaks" I was sleeping.
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16:39:18 <Sgeo> http://this-plt-life.tumblr.com/post/36425234294/when-i-see-that-a-new-language-makes-a-difference
16:39:33 <Sgeo> I can think of good reasons for such a distinction. I guess I automatically think of Racket
16:40:37 <Bike> racket has statements?
16:41:16 <Melvar> What kind of distinction?
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16:42:55 <Sgeo> Bike: require and define are statements, I think
16:43:48 <Bike> internal defines are stupid, though.
16:44:04 <Sgeo> Not being able to require dynamically (at least not in normal usage) allows static determination of dependencies. Although I guess could be done in an expression-y way
16:44:12 <Sgeo> Bike: :( how so? I think they're a good idea
16:45:12 <Bike> it makes parsing harder for no very good reason. you have to have all the relevant forms deal with them specially and that complicates things. why not just use letrec?
16:45:56 <Bike> anyway, i'm not sure i'd count that as a "statement", since it's part of the syntax of theh form around it. not an expression though.
16:46:29 <zzo38> It is Forth which is impossible to parse without executing it.
16:47:24 <zzo38> (Of course, this has advantages and disadvantages.)
16:48:20 <Sgeo> I should get interested in Racket again. Start working on those lenses
17:14:28 <Sgeo> I may be addicted to Gravity Falls
17:20:56 <Bike> nothing wrong with that.
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17:40:19 <Sgeo> Bike: yes there is: I didn't pace myself, and am about to finish watching all episodes in 3 days. I'll need to wait until August for more.
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17:53:19 <Sgeo> Good idea. *hops into time machine to March 2013*
17:55:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PHL 1.0]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40060&oldid=39561 * GermanyBoy * (+53) /* (summary), External resources */ links; deadlink: I am having problems with my server
17:56:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Goldfish]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40061&oldid=39852 * GermanyBoy * (+26) /* External resources */ deadlink
18:13:02 <HackEgo> danddreclist 54: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
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18:33:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40062&oldid=40046 * GermanyBoy * (+30) /* The structure of the program */ lines: I think these help
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18:54:35 <ski> zzo38 : np
18:55:00 <ski> just not that common to run into someone who knows what a tracker is
18:56:38 * ski 'd count a `define' form as a declaration ..
18:57:55 * ski can also think of some reasons to distinguish commands from expressions
18:58:45 <ski> (and also to distinguish statements from expressions, where statements are like these logical formulae you can type in logical programming languages)
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19:27:04 <Sgeo> I wonder if any conspiracy nuts ... think something interesting about Gravity Falls
19:30:34 <myname> why the hell is there no function for base62 String -> String conversion in Data.Locator? :(
19:32:34 <myname> basically i want to transform a given string with unicode to something that is a valid function name in llvm
19:32:42 <myname> base62 would be suitable
19:34:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Infobox proglang]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40063 * GermanyBoy * (+1033) to be used on SYCPOL page
19:35:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40064&oldid=40062 * GermanyBoy * (-225) /* (summary) */ template
19:37:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Infobox proglang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40065&oldid=40063 * GermanyBoy * (+31) /* (template code), (SYCPOL example) */ bold, how it is really used on the SYCPOL page
19:37:57 <Sgeo> "In Disney’s latest show, Gravity Falls, they show everyone which masters they truly serve. They really don’t give a shit who knows it, either. If anyone had doubts about their connections to the ‘Illuminati’, I’m sure this show validates everything. Disney has always shown who they serve, but this time they’ve let everything ‘hang out’."
19:41:34 <zzo38> myname: Do you know what range of character it is using? Is it full Unicode? A superset? A subset? What are more common, would UTF-8 help at all?
19:41:58 <Sgeo> http://youtu.be/fOjSSj-WTkQ?t=2m53s this person... doesn't seem to know what the zodiac is
19:42:01 <zzo38> ski: I also did not understand your question
19:42:03 <myname> ideally it'll convert every valid haskell string
19:42:38 <ski> zzo38 : since you were mentioning Fasttracker, i figured perhaps you had some favourite modules
19:42:41 <zzo38> myname: Then, as far as I can tell, all character codes from 0 to 0x10FFFF even ones that aren't valid Unicode characters, but nothing beyond that.
19:42:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Goldfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40066&oldid=40061 * GermanyBoy * (+233) /* (summary) */ template
19:42:53 <zzo38> ski: O, well, I don't really know if I have any favourite.
19:43:15 <myname> zzo38: question is: what is the easiest and most reliable way to convert it
19:45:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Infobox proglang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40067&oldid=40065 * GermanyBoy * (+119) computational class
19:46:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Goldfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40068&oldid=40066 * GermanyBoy * (+53) turing complete
19:48:46 <zzo38> I think in LLVM you can use quotation marks to allow any character inside of a name.
19:49:45 <zzo38> If it allows 8-bit characters, then you can just use UTF-8.
19:50:18 <myname> it does not allow all of ascii
19:50:43 <zzo38> It says "any character can be used in a name value" in that part of the instructions?
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19:52:06 <zzo38> See LangRef.html#identifiers
19:52:32 <myname> is quoting also mentioned?
19:53:06 <zzo38> Yes, it says if you want to use any character other than [a-zA-Z$._0-9] then you have to use quotation marks, and you can use \ for any character code in hexadecimal.
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20:00:51 <myname> i can just name a function "foo bar" and it'll work?
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20:05:46 <zzo38> myname: I expect it will work, although I have not tried.
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20:10:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lii]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40069&oldid=39814 * GermanyBoy * (+861) /* (summary), Related languages */ template; new section
20:11:08 <zzo38> ski: The reason I was asking such question though, is so that I can make my program to make smaller .XM files; currently it always uses 64 rows each and never uses a pattern more than once.
20:20:21 * pikhq mutters at his new router
20:20:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Infobox proglang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40070&oldid=40067 * GermanyBoy * (+150) dimensions
20:20:34 <pikhq> Good bit: it does codel, and it's wonderful.
20:20:43 <pikhq> Bad bit: WHY DOES IPv6 NOT WORK :(
20:21:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Twocode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40071&oldid=40017 * GermanyBoy * (+398) /* (summary) */ template
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20:25:11 <Taneb> Help my trunk won't open
20:29:43 <ion> Try your boot.
20:31:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Infobox proglang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40072&oldid=40070 * GermanyBoy * (+105) memory system
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20:32:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40073&oldid=40064 * GermanyBoy * (+51) /* (summary) */ memsys
20:33:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Infobox proglang]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40074&oldid=40072 * GermanyBoy * (+0) lowercase one-dimensional
20:41:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Infobox proglang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40075&oldid=40074 * GermanyBoy * (+86) made dimensions optional
20:41:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40076&oldid=40073 * GermanyBoy * (+56)
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20:51:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Infobox proglang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40078&oldid=40075 * GermanyBoy * (+29) made influence optional
20:52:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PHL 1.0]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40079&oldid=40060 * GermanyBoy * (+356) /* (summary) */ template
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21:29:00 <ski> zzo38 : is it a converter program ?
21:32:45 <zzo38> ski: It is a program to write music with.
21:55:19 <ski> a tracker ? or a different kind of program ?
21:57:25 <FireFly> the (nitro|milky)tracker kind
21:58:00 <scoofy> which tracker you write XMs with?
22:01:12 <nooodl> milkytracker and modplug tracker/openmpt, are i guess what most people use
22:01:47 <scoofy> no one uses FT2 anymore?
22:02:07 <zzo38> I am using a program I wrote myself, called AmigaMML
22:02:18 <zzo38> It is not a real tracker program
22:02:30 <zzo38> It is Music Macro Language
22:02:54 <zzo38> You can write the music in a text file and then run it through the program to produce a .MOD or .XM file.
22:03:06 <scoofy> where does it get samples from? in case of XM ?
22:03:26 <scoofy> do you have an example input?
22:03:29 <zzo38> In either case, you can either synthesize the samples or load them from other files.
22:03:40 <scoofy> so the synthesis is also part of the markup language?
22:04:12 <zzo38> scoofy: Yes, if the filename to load the samples from starts with "#" or "+" or "?" or "PAD_" then it uses the built-in synthesizer to generate the data.
22:04:43 <scoofy> do you have an example input?
22:04:49 <zzo38> (In the case of "PAD_" it only does it if the file does not already exist, because it is slow)
22:05:07 <scoofy> or an example output? :)
22:05:18 <ski> (though i've more commonly played music in Startrekker. on *nix i mostly use mikmod and UADE atm; on windows, either DeliPlayer, or Oldsk00l with WinAmp)
22:05:23 <zzo38> scoofy: Not right now, because I am still working on it, and I have tested some things, but I do have documentation and wiki and stuff if you want to see it.
22:05:33 <zzo38> ski: I have OpenMPT and use that to play music.
22:05:47 <ski> zzo38 : it looks ok
22:06:20 <ski> zzo38 : which platforms are AmigaMML running on ?
22:06:23 <zzo38> scoofy: Yes. It is: https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/amigamml
22:06:26 <ski> (any Amiga ? ;)
22:06:48 <zzo38> ski: It is written in C. I don't know if it is actually capable of running on Amiga, but if you use .MOD output then the music should be able to play on Amiga.
22:07:49 <zzo38> (I cannot test it on Amiga since I don't have any. But, maybe someone can get it to run on Amiga and use the Amiga sound chip to make the music with.)
22:08:40 * ski constantly misreads "zzo38" as "zzgo", out of the corner of the eye ..
22:09:22 <ski> (.. probably due to "Bards Tale II: The Destiny Knight")
22:10:19 <zzo38> If you want you are allowed to post messages in this wiki, issues, forums.
22:14:06 <zzo38> The OpenID claims that the SREG fields called "nickname", "fullname", and "email" are required. Actually, they are only required if you do not already have an account (and if you omit them, it will ask you again anyways); if you already have an account then you can safely omit them.
22:18:25 <scoofy> zzo38, so you have no example inputs or outputs currently?
22:19:16 <zzo38> scoofy: That is correct currently I have none. Eventually I probably will have, though. Just currently I am working more on the programming.
22:19:28 <scoofy> so... how did you even test it?
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22:20:04 <zzo38> I tested it by writing input file and check output files, but, they aren't a full music, only a test, so they aren't very useful.
22:20:14 <zzo38> And anyways it is just one file I change to make the tests I need.
22:20:24 <scoofy> so you don't save them...
22:20:43 <zzo38> That is correct; they are just a test so I don't need to save them.
22:20:58 <scoofy> not even for others to run the same test(s) ?
22:21:26 <scoofy> because without some example filtes, it may be a bit hard to figure out how it works...
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22:22:16 <zzo38> You are probably correct, that examples would help.
22:22:49 <zzo38> Feel free to post in wiki or forums or issues if you have such things to write, too.
22:23:04 <scoofy> nah, was just curious how the input would look like
22:23:09 <scoofy> or how the output would sound like
22:25:22 <zzo38> If you want to know how the output is sound like, you are free to try it. The input might look like A o2l4v64@0 cdefgab>c to play a scale in instrument 0 on channel A. You have to define the instrument too, for example @0 = "instrument1" loads it from the file called "instrument1".
22:25:55 <scoofy> yes, these kind of examples are the ones that would be useful
22:25:59 <zzo38> There are also other commands, such as #TITLE set the title, #EXTENDED makes .XM output instead of .MOD, #TEMPO sets the tempo, and so on.
22:27:16 <zzo38> To use the built-in synthesizer, you can do for example @0 = "# L" means a square wave.
22:29:29 <zzo38> If you write "# 2xL 2L" then it will make two square waves, one being one octave higher but half volume. If you write "# L16", then you can make a 25% duty square wave. If you write "# N", then it makes a saw wave. If you write "# V" then it is a triangle wave.
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22:55:46 <S1> Who made the Brainfuck survey and what for?
22:56:13 <S1> in the channel topic
22:58:50 <S1> What is the difference between text mode and binary mode here?
22:59:30 <ski> zzo38 : ok
23:18:03 <nooodl> i think it refers to newline handling
23:20:10 <b_jonas> why would there need to be a special command for setting the title? isn't the title in the prompt file so you can set it with an ordinary arithmetic instruction?
23:20:48 <b_jonas> oh look, GreyKnight had written more BANCStar stuff to the wiki
23:21:30 <zzo38> I have seen it too
23:25:04 <b_jonas> is the "prompt file" something the BANCStar interpreter uses, or is it just for annotating the code for humans?
23:25:51 <zzo38> I think the prompt file is used to store data displayed by the BANCStar interpreter
23:26:13 <zzo38> And presumably as well as string literals which are used in other ways in the program
23:26:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Javamannen * uploaded "[[File:BytePusher II.gif]]": Pushing even more bytes
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23:36:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BytePusher II]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40081&oldid=40028 * Javamannen * (-274) A logo.
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01:06:29 <oerjan> why is the weather forecast showing this scary "29" number
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01:22:44 <oerjan> coppro: it's too damn hot hth
01:23:00 <oerjan> also, i think this is on topic http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1902
01:23:27 <coppro> oerjan: my apologies, I forgot to automatically ignore anything ending in hth
01:25:22 <coppro> now I won't see you say hth hth
01:25:56 <oerjan> *MWAHAHAHA* now coppro will be unable to stop my plans hth
01:26:25 <oerjan> curses foiled again tdnh
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01:29:15 <oerjan> coppro will be so confused from now
01:32:59 <coppro> you never say anything helpful ending in hth
01:35:17 <oerjan> i am starting to think people have some kind of irrational hatred of the poor hths
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02:06:25 <zzo38> Maybe some people do have such hatred I don't know. Other people probably hate other things, I think, whether or not there is a reason to do so.
02:06:44 <zzo38> Therefore, in a Dungeons&Dragons game I have to beat Aberration Hater.
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02:58:05 <MDude> An alright 4th of July, now to sleep.
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03:02:01 <zzo38> Yes, and 4th of July is not a holiday in Canada, but we still have a Fourth of July even though it is not a holiday.
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03:44:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Rdebath]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40082&oldid=40059 * Oerjan * (+274) unsigned pandemic
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04:07:16 <Sgeo> Woohoo! https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/ApplicativeDo
04:09:15 <Sgeo> And apparently a lot of people don't think it makes much sense
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04:56:58 <ski> <http://hackage.haskell.org/package/applicative-quoters>
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06:21:11 <zzo38> Would an optimizer working on target machine instructions suitable like: You have a commutativity function taking two instruction and tell you if it is commutative or not. You have a set of triples (A,B,C) where a series of instructions (A,X,B) where X consists of instructions commutative with A is converted into (X,C).
06:32:29 <zzo38> Is this reasonable?
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06:46:13 <zzo38> Maybe I can rewrite it then.
06:46:58 <zzo38> You have a set of rules which are triples (A,B,C) which means that if an instruction matching A is found, followed by zero or more instructions that commute with A, followed by an instruction matching B, that it should remove A and replace B with C.
06:47:17 <zzo38> doesthiswork: No. Now I rewrote it; does this help?
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06:57:08 <zzo38> Would it work, and how can tables be made to done efficiently?
06:57:40 <zzo38> A, B, and C could all be patterns for a single instruction which include parameters passed to other patterns.
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07:29:30 <doesthiswork> I don't have enough experience with efficiency to know
07:31:11 <zzo38> But does it seem a reasonable way to do a instruction code optimization at all?
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07:36:53 <Sgeo> The Roblox wiki helpfully documents undocumented features of Lua
07:36:58 <Sgeo> http://wiki.roblox.com/index.php?title=Newproxy#newproxy
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08:03:07 <HackEgo> olist (957): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
08:14:02 <oerjan> prophecy fulfilment in 1,2...
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08:35:39 <zzo38> Other thing I wanted to know, is how to generate AI for computer-RPG game.
08:36:08 <zzo38> (Including by automatic generation)
08:36:12 <Melvar> < Sgeo> Woohoo! https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/ApplicativeDo – “desugaring comes after typechecking” really?
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08:40:45 <zzo38> And this should even be including such thing as deception, and learning about the target, and so on.
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09:03:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Infobox proglang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40084&oldid=40078 * GermanyBoy * (+253) made refimpl optional if majorimpl is present
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09:50:11 <oerjan> Melvar: really. it's so that type errors can still give error messages accurately referring to source.
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10:03:59 <Melvar> (In Idris typechecking happens after elaboration, which does part of the desugaring, while the parser does the other part of the desugaring. The way to refer back is to keep around the original source spans provided by the parser. Yes, this sometimes gives horrendous errors when using custom sugar or even type functions.)
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13:35:39 <ion> “ISIS Europe projects reflect a wealth of experience in peace-building, crisis management, gender and security reform, and integrating web 2.0 into the security and defence sectors.” http://isis-europe.org/
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15:51:46 <zzo38> My mention of how to above to replace pairs of instructions with a single one, is seems, if commutativity is omitted, to be something like the method of replacing a pair of letters with the ligature.
15:52:33 <HackEgo> [U+026E LATIN SMALL LETTER LEZH]
15:54:05 * boily fails at pronouncing /l/ and /ʒ/ at the same time...
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15:54:32 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1d 14h 6m 2s ago: apparently one species, Acheta domestica, is occasionally found in norway
15:56:10 <Melvar> boily: You take a [l] and then tighten it to a fricative.
15:57:45 <boily> oh. hm. indeed. tdh.
15:58:28 <Melvar> And then you can devoice it to get [ɬ].
15:59:30 <boily> is that phone actually used in an actual language?
16:00:48 <boily> that one, the devoiced one, the one that mysteriously renders in my terminal.
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16:01:41 <Melvar> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_alveolar_lateral_fricative has a longish list.
16:04:01 <Melvar> Welsh is the usual example, where it’s spelled ‹ll›.
16:06:28 <boily> so many different languages...
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16:50:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dweymouth * New user account
17:04:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Arborealis]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40087&oldid=23326 * Dweymouth * (+327) Added my interpreter
17:09:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Arborealis]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40088&oldid=34233 * Dweymouth * (+209) Added interpreters
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19:53:28 <newsham> how can wales be a country?
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20:01:44 <Taneb> newsham, long story
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20:13:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40089&oldid=40086 * GermanyBoy * (+48) I finally implemented it! ~ added links to VISCIM-JA
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20:43:19 <zzo38> The TFM format has eight kind of ligature ops, which are =: |=: |=:> =:| =:|> |=:| |=:|> |=:|>>
20:43:58 <zzo38> In order to do the kinds of optimization I was mentioning before though, the last three ops aren't needed.
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21:05:55 <zzo38> It is a font metrics format used in TeX and METAFONT.
21:06:10 <zzo38> The "dvi-processing" Haskell library also uses it.
21:09:18 <FireFly> <Sgeo> The Roblox wiki helpfully documents undocumented features of Lua ← as does the lua-users wiki, FWIW
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21:40:07 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't get people who complain about the axiom of choice being non-constructive
21:40:37 <Phantom_Hoover> by the time you're working with uncountable sets you've thrown constructivism to the wind anyway, what's the big issue
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21:43:12 <zzo38> I do not think it is a problem; you can make the theory with or without axiom of choice, as you can make the logic with or without law of excluded middle.
21:43:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: uncountability and constructivism aren't incompatible
21:45:53 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, let me rephrase; by the time you've defined the reals, you've thrown constructivism to the wind
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21:57:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: not really
21:57:11 <elliott> you just might not be able to construct uncomputable ones
21:57:31 <elliott> you can't prove they don't exist though
21:57:40 <elliott> the set being the familiar reals is consistent
21:59:24 <newsham> lets do math with the ones we know how to talk about
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22:06:47 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, is the axiom of choice still even nonconstructive on constructive sets then
22:11:27 <elliott> intensional choice is a theorem of type theory at least
22:11:35 <elliott> but extensional choice implies lem and is not
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22:18:17 <Taneb> Help I'm distracting myself from writing terrible Python by reading terrible PHP
22:19:05 <Bike> why not read "More Tales of Pirx the Pilot", a collection of delightful science-fiction short stories by the famous author Stanislaw Lem
22:19:36 * boily throws a few copies of LYAH and Land of LISP towards Taneb with great informational force
22:19:52 <Taneb> boily, I have read LYAH
22:20:04 <Taneb> And programmed mostly in Haskell for a few years now
22:20:10 <Taneb> I have however not read Land of LISP
22:22:36 <boily> Taneb: the latter is quite mindwarping.
22:23:25 <Bike> isn't land of lisp the one with a bunch of gaems
22:24:29 <boily> it's the one with that... thing? with legs?
22:24:36 <boily> also eyes. can't forget the eyes.
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22:30:29 * impomatic_ is looking for a lisp cartridge for the Electron and Vic 20 :-)
22:31:07 <newsham> learn you a structure and interpretation of computer programs for great good
22:32:09 <newsham> does the c64 "microlisp" work in vic20?
22:32:54 <newsham> yah, doesnt seem to, from my searches
22:33:06 <newsham> http://www.npsnet.com/danf/cbm/languages.html#LISP
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23:39:55 <oerjan> <ion> “ISIS Europe projects reflect a wealth of experience in peace-building, crisis management, gender and security reform, and integrating web 2.0 into the security and defence sectors.” http://isis-europe.org/ <-- nothing about good naming practices?
23:40:52 <oerjan> also it's officially just is now, i hear.
23:41:15 <oerjan> @tell ion <ion> “ISIS Europe projects reflect a wealth of experience in peace-building, crisis management, gender and security reform, and integrating web 2.0 into the security and defence sectors.” http://isis-europe.org/ <-- nothing about good naming practices?
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00:04:32 <ski> newsham : heh, that reminds me i found a Prolog for C64 :)
00:06:01 <ski> zzo38 : oh .. i thought you were talking about TFMX for a second ..
00:14:57 <zzo38> ski: Well, it isn't.
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00:46:48 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> Help I'm distracting myself from writing terrible Python by reading terrible PHP
00:46:54 <HackEgo> 1212) <Taneb> Help I'm distracting myself from writing terrible Python by reading terrible PHP
00:47:51 <oerjan> at least that's probably less evil than the reverse (or is it converse)
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00:51:16 <boily> oerjan: obviously it's the obverse.
00:53:18 <boily> uhm. you really shouldn't be taking me at face value there. I have no fungotting clue what I'm talking about.
00:53:18 <fungot> boily: i was just unsure whether it had already been interned fnord not use j much... he was bugging me.
00:53:51 <oerjan> boily: i think that's the perfect qualification for this conversation hth
00:56:29 <Sgeo> Help, I need to stop being so reluctant to watch shows that are nominally kids' shows
00:57:18 <zzo38> Sgeo: Well, if it is a show you like then watch it, otherwise, please don't watch it.
00:57:41 <Sgeo> I'm specifically referring to shows that I haven't seen before. Shows that I've watched some of and know I like will continue to be watched
00:59:34 <oerjan> Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
01:00:08 <oerjan> in other words you need to watch children's shows or be DOOMED
01:00:37 <zzo38> Sgeo: If you have not seen it before, then you must learn.
01:01:46 <boily> http://youtu.be/_kNvcxwJVs4
01:02:36 <oerjan> boily: Denne videoen er ikke tilgjengelig i ditt land. tdnh.
01:03:41 <boily> halp. I'm understanding Norwegian.
01:03:54 <boily> maybe this one? → http://youtu.be/oh4tHpUflDA
01:04:13 <boily> (hm. it has lyrics. the lyrics, they are dirty.)
01:04:44 <boily> oerjan: care to provide an audio clip of your evil voice, so that I can know how you sound like? plzkthxtwh
01:05:11 <oerjan> boily: too much work hth
01:09:44 <oerjan> also, malaysia doesn't have a president.
01:12:00 <boily> I unsee youtube comments.
01:12:17 <boily> speaking of unseeing stuff, quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
01:14:01 * boily lightly prods quintopia *prod* *prod* *prod*
01:14:36 * FireFly lightly nudges boily *wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*
01:21:56 <zzo38> Now I did make example of AmigaMML: https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/amigamml/wiki/Examples
01:31:58 <zzo38> I had idea of a kind of card game called "The Aberration Hater Card Game", which is played by two, three, or four players, and with four players it is teams and there is two modes "Bridge-mode" and "Washizu-mode". Some cards are only usable based on the role of each player (which rotates), and each player has a different role except in Bridge-mode.
01:33:35 <zzo38> However, I don't know much else about it
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01:36:29 <oerjan> <boily> also eyes. can't forget the eyes. <-- are you saying the land of lisp is multiocular?
01:37:31 <boily> quintopia: I finished reading The City & The City the other day. it was good!
01:37:58 <quintopia> i'm all wrapped up in Worm now >_>
01:38:28 <boily> oerjan: I couldn't find myself telling a negative answer. the LoL is indeed multiocular.
01:38:46 <boily> quintopia: what kind of worm? the one where you blow your opponents up?
01:39:18 <quintopia> i'm talking about parahumans.wordpress.com
01:39:29 <Bike> waiting for the worms *guitar riff*
01:40:50 <quintopia> i also have this graph algorithm problem that i don't know enough to approach :/
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01:41:32 <newsham> in the land of the blind multiocular lisp is king?
01:42:14 <boily> quintopia: I took a peek at the table of contents. were you naïvely planning to sleep this year?
01:42:54 <boily> newsham: more like something approaching godhood.
01:43:12 <quintopia> surely i could finish it this month if i wanted
01:44:17 <newsham> a million well typed monkeys will eventually create lisp
01:44:40 <boily> are monkeys statically typed?
01:45:24 <quintopia> i'm working on creating some monkeys! which is how this problem arose
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01:46:50 <newsham> monkeys with lisps are not statically typed
01:47:02 <newsham> but.. given infinite monkeys....
01:49:25 <oerjan> newsham: what about thtatically?
01:50:15 <boily> how would one summon infinite statistic monkeys? like with some kung fu pose and a “中心极限定理” war cry?
01:52:18 <oerjan> boily: needs more video
01:52:36 <newsham> thatithtically i taught i taw a puddy tat
01:52:57 <newsham> boily: you create virtual pairs out of quantum foam
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02:01:06 <boily> quantum foam I somewhat understand, but what is a virtual pair?
02:01:35 <Bike> isn't that one of those particle-antiparticle pairs that show up randomly but wink out just as fast
02:01:44 <Bike> except near a black hole which is how hawking radiation happens. or something?
02:04:27 <boily> perhaps, but I'm going to sleep. if I have quantum nightmares tonight, I'll know who to blame.
02:04:44 * boily defiantly glares at newsham. very defiant. much glare.
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02:06:32 <zzo38> I was thinking that I could have a Forth system which makes intermediate code which is executable inside of the compiler, and which is then compiled into a Z-machine code. Both individual instructions and sequence of instructions can combine into Z-machine instructions, for example DROP becomes FSTACK or ICALL 0 *0 and various other things.
02:07:21 <zzo38> What are quantum nightmares?
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02:10:59 <FreeFull> You put a cat in a box, and it disappears
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04:40:28 <oerjan> is there a deluge somewhere
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05:31:29 <zzo38> I have some computer game, where some objects have commands to use. One object is a toilet and its only command is "CAR WWW.CBC.CA," What?
05:32:21 <Bike> the canadian broadcasting corporation is important.
05:38:03 <Sgeo> Finally watched Watchmen
05:38:44 <Bike> that answers that question
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05:42:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Arborealis]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40090&oldid=40088 * Dweymouth * (+146) /* Implementation Specifics */ EOF
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05:44:22 <oerjan> zzo38: perhaps someone is trying to secretly insult the head of CBC
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05:49:44 <zzo38> There are other things too; in one place there is a stove, and its commands are "burn my finger" and "cook pizza"
05:51:35 <zzo38> A lock with four dots can be opened with a fork.
05:54:52 <zzo38> In one room there is a diskette slot in the floor, and there is a man running back and forth. If you insert a disk, then he trips and falls and dies. There is also a pan in there, and its only command is to put a key in it. Doing so changes the color of the key.
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08:41:20 <Slereah_> How old are hard drives as a standard component of PCs
08:48:28 <Slereah_> My first PC in 92 or so had none, I think, but it was a hand me down
08:49:49 <Slereah_> and my second one in 95 had one
09:12:52 <b_jonas> in the original PCs, the hard disk controller expansion card (called fixed disk controller back then; the card also contained the part of the ROM BIOS needed for hard disk) and the hard disk (called fixed disk) were both optional
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13:05:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40091&oldid=40048 * GreyKnight * (+3757) /* Arithmetic instructions */ revise arithmetic section with new research
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13:19:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40092&oldid=40045 * GreyKnight * (+341) /* more archaeology */ woohoo
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13:34:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40093&oldid=40091 * GreyKnight * (+125) /* Instructions */ mysterious 9401 variant
13:34:51 <b_jonas> great, but is there any hope for an interpreter?
13:39:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:B jonas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40094&oldid=39206 * GreyKnight * (+425) /* BANCStar implementation */ new section
13:42:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:GreyKnight]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40095 * B jonas * (+231) Created page with "== BANCStar == Re rescuing BANCStar interpreter: that's just a rumour I've heared in the irc channel, and I haven't heared any followup since. I was hoping you knew something..."
13:48:53 <boily> just a rumour? but we are a very informed and thrustworthy channel!
13:49:27 <b_jonas> boily: maybe you should inform me and GreyKnight about what the channel knows too then
13:49:32 <b_jonas> I tried to ask a few times
13:51:04 <boily> it's the channel itself that knows. not the people in it. maybe fungot?
13:51:04 <fungot> boily: fnord can't use scsh with slime48, or you were intending on doing load-balancing?
13:51:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:B jonas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40096&oldid=40094 * GreyKnight * (+498) /* BANCStar implementation */
13:54:05 <b_jonas> fungot, whatever happened with that plan of mining a BANCStar implementation from old floppies
13:54:06 <fungot> b_jonas: i was thinking about one too ( its for entering the right mindset, good fucking luck getting anyone to help?)
13:54:24 <b_jonas> fungot: who had those floppies in first place?
13:54:25 <fungot> b_jonas: i think i.am exists, but it's been published in peer-reviewed journals, so... okay. yeah that improves it for when throw is called, they don't neglect any possibility to try to take both branches
13:56:54 <boily> the conspiracy runs deeper. it goes beyond such technological novelties as floppy discs, and reaches further back, in the Time of Listings, when bad typesetting ruled the Magazines.
13:57:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:GreyKnight]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40097&oldid=40095 * B jonas * (+159)
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14:55:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lii]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40098&oldid=40069 * GermanyBoy * (+227) /* CLii */ better example
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19:41:04 <zzo38> How would you program a AI generator for computer-RPG games?
19:41:38 <Bike> something that makes AIs?
19:41:58 <myname> zzo38: if you find something, let me know
19:42:06 <Slereah_> I would build a neural network with feedback and train it to say "Welcome to our village"
19:42:17 <Slereah_> Or maybe "Hello adventurer, do you want to buy a sword"
19:42:27 <ais523_> zzo38: is this combat AI, or overworld AI/
19:42:29 <Bike> *sigh* times are tough
19:42:33 <ais523_> the two are completely different in how you implement them
19:43:21 <ais523_> I have had thoughts about an RPG where the overworld NPCs have procedurally generated dialogue trees
19:43:27 <ais523_> so that they /all/ have something useful to say
19:43:28 <zzo38> ais523_: Combat AI; I forgot about overworld AI although I don't think I need that and can just code overworld manually
19:44:08 <ais523_> zzo38: well it depends on whether you care more about making them realistic, or about making the game generally fun
19:44:20 <ais523_> even just picking actions at random can be reasonably fun, except sometimes in boss fights
19:44:32 <ais523_> if you want realistic behaviour, you can treat it much the same way as a chess AI
19:45:24 <zzo38> Well, I intend to make it that they can do a good job, but also to consider what the NPCs goal are. For example of they are a thief their goal is simply to steal stuff from you, and then they might attempt to run away, or fight back, depending what is considered as better in the situation
19:45:54 <zzo38> As welll as such goal as defend someone, attack someone, revenge, etc
19:46:03 <Slereah_> It would be nice to have an RPG that, for instance
19:46:12 <Slereah_> If you, the demon lord of the 9 realms
19:46:24 <Slereah_> That hobo doesn't fight you to the death
19:46:53 <zzo38> Slereah_: That is an example of what I meant, different NPC can have different goals, some don't care about such thing
19:46:53 <fowl> Slereah_, what if that was his last penny?
19:47:14 <Slereah_> Well he won't be able to take this penny as a ghost
19:47:21 <ais523_> Slereah_: in that situation, the hobo should be running away /before/ you steal the penny
19:47:43 <Slereah_> Like he could beg you maybe???
19:47:53 <Slereah_> Oh mighty lord do not steal my gross hobo coin :(((
19:47:53 <fowl> "oh god the demon lord is looking at me!" then he wets himself
19:48:10 <fowl> i'd play that game
19:48:11 <zzo38> ais523_: Yes, that is another thing that should be considered
19:48:15 <myname> can someone recommend a good read on those language processingnstuff for bots (was it markov chains?)
19:48:39 <fowl> fungot, knows about markov chains
19:48:40 <fungot> fowl: self-imposed silence? like that twilight zone episode? best episode ever.' in ( fnord) function provided" problem...
19:48:50 <ais523_> myname: IIRC fizzie works in that area, so e'd probably know
19:49:35 <zzo38> And then, you have to consider such thing as deception. One is to try go guess the player's action ahead of time in case of delayed actions, and what is best with what in what situation, what their weaknesses and defenses are, and to try to conceal your own...
19:49:47 <zzo38> Furthermore, there is the consideration of teamwork!
19:50:36 <ais523_> I want to analyze the maths behind simultaneous-action RPGs, sometime
19:50:49 <ais523_> alpha-beta is not the best approach due to the possibility of rock-paper-scissors scenarios
19:51:45 <zzo38> Yes, that is also kind of thing like I was mentioning.
19:52:35 <Taneb> `quote hour and a half
19:52:36 <HackEgo> 1126) <Taneb> kmc, I was trying to go to a sci-fi and fantasy society social, and I went to the wrong bar <Taneb> Wound up at my university's fetish society <Taneb> Didn't realise for an hour and a half
19:52:41 <Taneb> I should go back some time
19:52:44 <Taneb> They were pretty nice people
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20:11:39 <fizzie> What sort of read? I mean, a textbook kind of thing?
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20:15:07 <fizzie> If so, then our courses on the topic used Manning & Schütze -- http://nlp.stanford.edu/fsnlp/ -- though it's not exactly "recent trends", having been published in '99.
20:16:15 <fizzie> fungot: Still online and working? Impressive.
20:16:15 <fungot> fizzie: what are you trying to deter people from using it in the south, didn't work
20:20:19 <FireFly> stop trying to deter people from using fungot in the south
20:20:19 <fungot> FireFly: having to do administrative things. what color are my eyes?
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20:24:54 * ais523_ imagines fungot filling out a form, and being a bot, actually stuck on a question about eye color
20:24:54 <fungot> ais523_: grasping the logical concept may be difficult
20:27:36 <int-e> ( ) brown ( ) blue ( ) green ( ) grey ( ) I have a matte display ( ) other
20:28:43 <int-e> ... since fungot had to be restarted
20:28:43 <fungot> int-e: tell asymtonic foo () ( newline) ( loop))
20:29:47 <int-e> fizzie is the kind soul who has done that the last couple of times
20:31:19 <Taneb> Just used >>= in Python, I can almost pretend that it's Haskell
20:32:32 <Taneb> That's a bit-shift operator
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20:40:23 <newsham> http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/x/machine/monad.py
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20:41:19 <newsham> doesnt abstract "return" :(
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20:49:32 <nooodl> newsham: "def __ge__(self, m): return self.bind(m)" sounds neater
20:52:57 <ais523_> now I'm filled with a huge urge to make C++ streams syntax work in Haskell, where the >> is actually a monad bind
20:53:05 <ais523_> rather than a redefinition of (>>)
20:53:15 <ais523_> but I don't know enough Haskell (or enough C++, really) to pull it off
21:01:11 <newsham> nooodl: feel free to rewrite it
21:01:32 <nooodl> newsham: i'm writing a generic liftM!!
21:01:39 <newsham> ais: i saw some python code using >> as a stream output today
21:06:15 <newsham> you're right, shoulda been calling to bind
21:06:22 <newsham> instead of using """bind"""
21:06:59 <newsham> need some hack to make "ret" polymorphic
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21:12:53 <nooodl> newsham: polymorphic how?
21:13:01 <nooodl> newsham: also http://bpaste.net/raw/441340/
21:15:40 <newsham> notice all my calls to ret are fully qualified?
21:15:47 <newsham> it should be implicit and polymorphic
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22:18:53 <zzo38> I want to know what would probably be the best way to make the AI generator for the sophisticated things mentioned above, do you have any ideas of such at least?
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22:24:36 <nooodl> that sounds hard because: what should print ret(3) do
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22:37:13 <newsham> nooodl: with a hack its possible to make > ret(3) do the right thing
22:37:43 <newsham> by defining __lt__ and ret appropriately
22:55:01 <nooodl> http://bpaste.net/raw/441535/ a cute hack
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22:55:28 <nooodl> lift() is quite the function now.
22:55:59 <nooodl> basically ret() returns an object that gets coerced into the right monad by monadic functions
22:56:31 <nooodl> for lift() this involves finding out which monad we're working in by looking at the types of all arguments passed to it
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23:53:16 <Sgeo_> My phone turned me into a spammer
23:53:23 <Sgeo_> It spazzed and sent an email with the subject:
23:53:28 <Sgeo_> Ppt 0ilpfile ppi0oppkp0op0p0pop00 p0l00p0 0 LPO 00p00 for loll loll poll plop p00k000p00000jp pop 0p00over 00p0pand then plop in psox psox
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00:10:22 <doesthiswork> someone made a font for Haskell with ligatures https://github.com/i-tu/Hasklig
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01:25:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BytePusher II]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40099&oldid=40081 * Javamannen * (+485) Memory model, CPU, Endianness
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02:21:14 <zzo38> Did you see my most recent texts of Dungeons&Dragons game? Maybe the text can also be fixed for making a story written a bit better than that?
02:24:37 <zzo38> See if you can answer these questions so far? gopher://zzo38computer.org/1quiz.run*quiz01.
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02:40:12 <oerjan> Sgeo_: so you are saying the psox on your phone has turned sentient?
02:42:00 <elliott> if your pee socks turn sentient you probably left them long enough that they developed their own ecosystem
02:43:15 <oerjan> i don't think pee socks are a concept, elliott
02:43:28 <elliott> they weren't until Sgeo came along!
02:43:51 <oerjan> i have a nice porcelain device hth
02:45:28 <elliott> if that's what you call it.
02:45:40 <oerjan> it's technically probably correct
02:46:36 <oerjan> http://gizmodo.com/5930537/why-toilets-are-still-made-of-porcelain
02:47:14 <elliott> unfortunately my line is a dumber joke than you may have been assuming
02:49:13 <oerjan> also, advice: don't go to the farmacy when you've slept so little you don't recognize that you're picking the wrong brand hth
02:49:29 <Bike> I don’t think I need to spend much time on infinity. Infinitus est numerus stultorum. It suffices to point out that you cannot show me infinity of anything whatsoever. Since everything is finite, including every number, putting them all together will still not get you to infinity. According to math (and also its feisty sidekick, the English language), the number before infinity would be known as the “penultimate” in the series of ...
02:49:35 <Bike> ... all numbers. So in my opinion, the last number in the number line is the penultimate.
02:49:38 <Bike> There is also a convenient common sense method for refuting infinity. If there were infinite numbers, then the Universe couldn’t fit them all in. But clearly the Universe does fit them all in, by the transitive property. It fits our brains, and our brains fit all the numbers. Please see William Lane Craig on this point, for further discussion
02:51:18 <oerjan> Bike: cranking up the spam?
02:55:40 <oerjan> elliott: eye drops. instead of the nice simple one i've bought before "_no_ known side effects" i came back with some that require me to press on my eye for 1-2 minutes afterward in order that it doesn't get into my nose canals
02:56:08 <elliott> oerjan: _no_ known side effects sounds like it might be homeopathic or something :)
02:56:50 <oerjan> not to my knowledge. the brand's called artelac
02:56:57 <Sgeo_> Actual homeopathic or fake homeopathic with active ingredients?
02:57:48 <oerjan> it doesn't claim to be homeopathic.
02:58:09 <elliott> it's secretly homeopathic. (it's not; I googled it.)
02:59:30 <oerjan> fortunately i still have a bottle of the old left.
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03:01:11 <zzo38> Then why do you need to buy a new one?
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03:01:47 <oerjan> it's a small bottle, so it will be used up before the next time my sleeping rhythm returns to normal enough to visit a pharmacy.
03:06:59 <oerjan> (or well, the local pharmacy. in theory, there's one near the city center with especially long opening hours.)
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05:12:13 <Sgeo_> http://www.reddit.com/r/node/comments/29sw2n/farewell_nodejs_tj_holowaychuk/
05:12:24 <Sgeo_> There exist conspiracy theories about certain programmers
05:12:37 <Sgeo_> "He isn't a real person, outside of the person who actually is the owner of the name tj holowaychuk. Look at the people who take over these repos in the coming days and weeks to find out who actually wrote them."
05:13:20 <elliott> I, too, can create a troll reddit account to post some nonsense in one specific thread
05:13:23 <Bicyclidine> my grandpa said he knew why the lucky stiff once, back in his army days. said he had a grin you couldn't forget, a crazy grin
05:13:31 <elliott> will you help me troll as many people as possible by linking and quoting it in irrelevant channels?
05:14:03 <Bicyclidine> funny thing was, he said why was writing a book, even then, in korea, and it was about ruby...............
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05:45:22 <zzo38> What conspiracy theories about what programmers?
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06:21:53 <fizzie> It is very exciting, I am at a 3D printer.
06:33:21 <fizzie> It had completed a layer!
06:33:31 <fizzie> There will be few hundred of those.
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06:45:33 <elliott> fizzie: does knowing finnish give you the ability to construct these wonderful sentences?
06:47:10 <fizzie> fungot: What do you think?
06:47:10 <fungot> fizzie: knowing why tail-recursion is important requires knowing about how memory works. binaries must be for -something-. i
06:48:44 <fizzie> Hey, the bottom has been done. It has started the infill.
06:48:59 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
06:49:12 <ais523> fungot's been a bit too lucid for irc, recently
06:49:12 <fungot> ais523: there are too many concepts involved in foof-loop? or have i just said? :)
06:58:04 <fizzie> (And flaky wifi at the library.)
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07:03:44 <fizzie> Ooh, top of the bottom.
07:16:06 <oerjan> this is not the top. it's not even the bottom of the top. but it may be the top of the bottom.
07:25:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40100&oldid=40055 * Rdebath * (+635) Resolution improvement on Counter test (best of 10)
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07:31:50 <fizzie> Oh no, my printout is going awry. :/
07:44:31 <oerjan> is it taking over the library
07:45:52 <oerjan> whatever you do, don't flee and abandon it. see what that did for frankenstein.
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07:48:46 <fizzie> It is warping and probably going to fail catastrophically later on.
07:51:42 <fizzie> Welp, I guess these don
07:51:50 <fizzie> 't usually work out right on the first try.
08:07:14 <fizzie> We tried applying some duck tape.
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08:23:36 <oerjan> elliott: did you know you're still all time no. 6 on stackoverflow's haskell tag
08:23:57 <elliott> oerjan: I'm surprised I haven't been more thoroughly overtaken by now
08:25:09 <elliott> I could beat dons if I wanted
08:25:45 <elliott> oerjan: I see you've made the list for this month
08:26:24 <oerjan> that's what i was checking
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09:00:50 <fizzie> I am at 9.6 millimetres (of 38), and it has not totally failed yet.
09:01:04 <fizzie> There's a bit of a Dali-esque look to one side of it, though.
09:05:42 <myname> how to guard an IO Bool?
09:09:37 <myname> the nicer way may be to make the helper function to return a bool, but i have no idea if that's actually possible
09:09:56 <oerjan> it's not, if it actually uses IO.
09:10:22 <oerjan> did you perhaps mean something else by guard.
09:10:25 <myname> i have an IORef [a] and want to check if the underlying list is empty
09:11:09 <oerjan> l <- readIORef ...; if null l then ... else ...
09:12:05 <myname> yeah, i thought it'd be nice if i could do something foo :: IORef [a] -> Bool stuff
09:12:17 <oerjan> or with the new LambdaCase extension, readIORef ... >>= \ case [] -> ...
09:12:51 <oerjan> myname: learning that you cannot get out of IO is like the first thing you learn about IO, hth
09:13:14 <myname> oerjan: i am at that step right now
09:13:53 <elliott> myname: (foo ref) would be True or False depending on the contents of (the same) ref
09:13:56 <elliott> therefore that would violate RT
09:14:26 <elliott> my ;_; was because you gave me a flashback to the 10,000 questions of exactly that form I've dealt with on SO thanks to oerjan reminding me :p
09:14:35 <myname> can i at least do "nothing" in the else branch?
09:15:12 <oerjan> myname: you can use when (null l) $ ...
09:15:26 <elliott> else return () -- when is equivalent
09:15:35 <lambdabot> when p s = if p then s else return ()
09:16:01 <oerjan> seriously, it's too hot to go outside today ;_;
09:22:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BytePusher II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40101&oldid=40000 * GreyKnight * (+418) /* Esoteric language for ROM interpreter? */
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09:58:53 <idris-bot> Prelude.Applicative.when : Applicative f => Bool -> Lazy (f ()) -> f ()
09:58:53 <idris-bot> Effects.when : Applicative m => Bool -> Lazy (Eff m () xs (\result => xs)) -> Eff m () xs (\result6 => xs)
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10:05:04 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140707-pr.jpg the future of manufacturing
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10:43:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Blub]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40102&oldid=32422 * Benni++ * (-9) Fixed the link after 3 years, was bored.
10:47:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DNA-Sharp]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40103&oldid=35666 * Benni++ * (+79) Added a link to the reuploaded editor.
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12:32:26 <fizzie> "Printing job ETA 0h:-2m:-23s" even time itself has failed
12:38:33 <fizzie> "Printing job ETA 0h:-6m:-2s" I'm sure it's done soon
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13:18:35 <fizzie> I am now a proud owner of a (quite warped-curvy but perhaps functional) N900-to-tripod thingamagick. And it only took 7 hours.
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16:20:03 <zzo38> One feature of the .NSF music format is that it is sometimes possible to convert files into such a format simply by concatenating the source file on top of a NSF stub.
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16:27:42 <coppro> can we figure out a way to ban mIRC colours on freenode?
16:27:49 <coppro> I'm okay with real color protocols
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16:29:46 <Bicyclidine> probably you'd want to patch whatever ircd freenode uses, and hope that everyone's client knows what you're doing (good luck)
16:30:00 <oerjan> have a bot send a notice to everyone who uses them hth
16:31:06 <coppro> Bicyclidine: don't tell the clients
16:31:16 <coppro> just tell people "mIRC colours are shit. we discontinued them."
16:32:04 <zzo38> I do not think you should tamper with the data in the protocol. But, you can tell people to don't use them, and complain when it is used
16:32:15 <coppro> CFI1we should use a colour protocol that doesn't suck ass
16:32:16 <zzo38> What real color protocols do you want? ANSI?
16:33:15 <coppro> the CTCP draft spec has one that doesn't suck ass
16:33:23 <coppro> although apparently on my client it produces blinking text
16:33:31 <zzo38> [7mReverse[mNormal
16:33:45 <coppro> (that line above started with ^FCFI1, which under the draft CTCP spec would give blue text)
16:34:15 <zzo38> I can just see the "^FCFI1" directly on my computer, and the text is already blue anyways due to syntax highlighting.
16:35:04 <zzo38> Does my line display like anything?
16:35:13 <coppro> also, syntax highlighting?
16:35:44 <zzo38> If it is reversed then I suppose you already have ANSI support.
16:36:23 <zzo38> Syntax highlighting is: sender in cyan, command in bright white, parameters in normal white, long parameters in bright blue (except for the preceding colon)
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16:47:56 <coppro> wait, you read IRC raw?
16:50:07 <b_jonas> coppro: freenode already has a channel mode for that
16:50:24 <b_jonas> but I too don't see much of a point in that
16:51:33 <b_jonas> incidentally, freenode's services do use mirc bold in some messages
16:51:48 <coppro> b_jonas: it needs to be turned off globally to make it die
16:52:21 <b_jonas> isn't it already bad enough to have three bytes the server doesn't allow in your messages? do you want eight more bytes?
16:52:34 <b_jonas> I for one would want to be able to send any byte and let the client decide how to interpret them
16:52:37 <zzo38> coppro: It isn't quite raw; it is in colors.
16:52:53 <b_jonas> if you don't like the colors, ask your irc client to not display them or something
16:53:01 <zzo38> b_jonas: I agree with you
16:53:09 <zzo38> Let the client decide how to interpret them.
16:53:39 <zzo38> With three exceptions though, being NUL, CR, LF, which should be made more restrictive.
16:55:46 <zzo38> (My own IRC client uses its own colors, although it does have an option to use additional colors/styles for client commands, bold, underline, and reverse video.)
16:57:57 <b_jonas> iirc three control characters are reserved by ctcp (though actually only one gets any use), and how many are there for colors and similar formatting stuff?
17:02:10 <zzo38> I don't know. I think it would probably be reasonable to use a subset of the ANSI codes for formatting, although this is not commonly done on IRC (it is common in other systems though).
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17:09:02 <coppro> `addquote <zzo38> Syntax highlighting is: sender in cyan, command in bright white, parameters in normal white, long parameters in bright blue (except for the preceding colon) <coppro> wait, you read IRC raw? <zzo38> It isn't quite raw; it is in colors.
17:09:04 <HackEgo> 1213) <zzo38> Syntax highlighting is: sender in cyan, command in bright white, parameters in normal white, long parameters in bright blue (except for the preceding colon) <coppro> wait, you read IRC raw? <zzo38> It isn't quite raw; it is in colors.
17:09:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ligature Machine]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40104 * Zzo38 * (+797) Created page with "Ligature Machine is a system consisting of: * A set of symbols. * A special begin symbol and end symbol. * A rule table, mapping an ordered pair of symbols to the new symbol (..."
17:10:24 <zzo38> Also PING commands are hidden if the AUTOPONG option is set.
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17:12:14 <coppro> zzo38: do you know the computing power of LM? I feel like it probably can recognize the regular languages
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17:12:54 <zzo38> coppro: No, unfortunately I don't quite know.
17:13:07 <zzo38> I don't know everything about computational classes.
17:13:24 <coppro> isn't |:=| a guaranteed infinite loop?
17:13:53 <coppro> also where is the ligature inserted on :=|?
17:13:58 <coppro> before or after the second symbol?
17:14:07 <zzo38> coppro: In :=| the ligature replaces the first symbol.
17:14:42 <zzo38> In |:=| the ligature is inserted in between. Therefore the rule corresponding to the old first symbol plus the ligature symbol might cause it not to loop.
17:14:43 <coppro> so yeah, I feel like you could probably simulate it with an NFA-e without too much difficulty
17:15:49 <coppro> but you can't go back... so it's incapable of recognizing the balanced parens language, which means it's weaker than CF
17:15:55 <coppro> probably still regular then
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17:16:02 <zzo38> Yes that is correct that you cannot go backward.
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17:20:42 <zzo38> I think you can recognize balanced parens if the number of symbols is allowed to be infinite, although it isn't supposed to be infinite.
17:20:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ligature Machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40105&oldid=40104 * 135.23.126.116 * (+147)
17:22:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ligature Machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40106&oldid=40105 * Zzo38 * (-7)
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17:30:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ligature Machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40107&oldid=40106 * Zzo38 * (+238) Mention example of modes
17:34:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40108&oldid=40008 * Zzo38 * (+23) +[[Ligature Machine]]
17:34:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40109&oldid=39104 * Zzo38 * (+23) +[[Ligature Machine]]
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18:09:42 <quintopia> i wonder if david.werecat is ever coming back here
18:09:57 <quintopia> he never wrote a david_werecat_simurgh for the hill :(
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20:23:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdebath/deadbeef]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40110&oldid=39881 * Rdebath * (+181) Add [>] accelerator
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22:28:28 * Sgeo wonders what D is like these days
22:32:08 <boily> has D ever took off? are there any major projects using it?
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22:36:04 <Sgeo> http://vibed.org/ exists
22:36:08 <Sgeo> No idea if it's any good
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22:37:53 <Sgeo> "De(serialization) of arbitrary D types is also supported."
22:38:01 <Sgeo> I would put those parens around (De)
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23:51:01 <stickittothemain> a bunch of implementations of different esolangs within one program
23:51:34 <stickittothemain> now, if we're going to do this, we'll have to decide on a single language
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23:57:02 <stickittothemain> I mean, when you're bored, you could just reimplement ><> to be more efficient
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00:24:10 <Sgeo> I'd rather use whatever language I'm into at any given microsecond. If that means using Opa to make a BF interpreter, so be it
00:25:50 <Bike> shine on, you crazy diamond.
00:28:20 <stickittothemain> i don't really know git that well, how do you add contributers?
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02:41:01 <Sgeo> "Our core interface is _not_ applicative or monadic, but more fundamental. It is monoidal, just like HTML itself!" Clearly, they need to write a monad wrapper for it for that nice do notation
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04:47:19 <Sgeo> (In a paper regarding Idris):
04:47:24 <Sgeo> "This project made no use of human subjects or external data. As such, there were no ethicalconsiderations for this project and accelerated ethical approval was sought."
04:52:30 <Bike> CS papers need ethical approval?
05:00:47 <pikhq> Bike: Not unless they use human subjects.
05:01:10 <pikhq> That was just a "fuck you" at Facebook, for using human subjects without consent and somehow getting it past an ethics board.
05:01:35 <Bike> oh. understandable. i thought that was socio psych something, though.
05:04:09 <Sgeo> Um. I don't think a paper written April 4th would have such a "fuck you"
05:04:25 <Sgeo> http://www.simonjf.com/writing/bsc-dissertation.pdf
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09:14:22 <HackEgo> 193) <elliott> Getting bad programmers to like something is a failure.
09:14:33 <Taneb> `quote experimenting
09:14:34 <HackEgo> 434) <Taneb> Well, I'm now experimenting with clients <fizzie> It doesn't sound like good PR to say that out loud.
09:14:45 <Taneb> Help I'm using IRSSI again
09:15:13 <fizzie> You just can't stop, can you.
09:16:31 <Taneb> Also I'm reading bad PHP, too
09:39:28 <Taneb> Also, new version of Dwarf Fortress aaaaaaah
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10:12:37 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: will your Anthracite mod be updated?
10:13:13 <Phantom_Hoover> p. sure it already is, he won't have changed the stone system
10:15:30 <Taneb> You may have to send it to me again in a couple of weeks
10:19:27 <elliott> we should do a succession fort again
10:24:41 <Phantom_Hoover> <Sparts> I think walls are completely unusable in new version fort mode
10:24:46 <Phantom_Hoover> <Sparts> Apparently when you deconstruct one everything in your fort teleports near the deconstructed spot
10:24:53 <Sgeo> We should learn to fix Sgeo's sleep patterns so that when coworkers randomly call in the dead of night he's actually woken up
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11:14:08 <Melvar> ( :let nats : Stream Nat; nats = iterate S Z
11:14:25 <idris-bot> [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9] : Vect 10 Nat
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11:18:43 <elliott> @ask ais523 do we actually want that infobox?
11:41:30 <Taneb> elliott: which infobox?
11:42:01 <elliott> the one germanyboy made on the wiki
11:47:34 <Melvar> `` units '2 pounds * c^2' 'megatons tnt'
11:47:35 <HackEgo> * 19.487022 \ / 0.051316205
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11:55:13 * Melvar finds out that in units, “lightyear” is not the same as “light year”, because “lightyear” is “c * julianyear” but “year” defaults to “tropicalyear”.
12:04:14 <Phantom_Hoover> for some reason df2014 has thrown my keyboard bindings into a blender
12:06:53 <elliott> that's why it only runs for two weeks or something, right?
12:07:40 <Phantom_Hoover> i assume it's a coarser simulation than the fort-to-fort one though
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12:23:17 <fizzie> IDGI. Images from the phone become more blurry if I shorten the exposure time.
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12:24:48 <fizzie> `run units '1 light year' 'lightyears'
12:24:58 <HackEgo> * 0.99997864 \ / 1.0000214
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12:28:42 <Melvar> `` units lightyear; units year
12:28:42 <HackEgo> Definition: c julianyear = 9.4607305e+15 m \ Definition: tropicalyear = 365.242198781 day = 31556926 s
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12:51:17 <ion> `run units 'light ray'
12:51:17 <HackEgo> Definition: 2.9979246e+13 kg / m^3 s^2
12:53:16 <Melvar> Ooh, I specified “beard” in my .units, that’s why it’s not there. Derp.
12:53:19 <ion> `run units 'bu bbl e'
12:53:19 <HackEgo> Definition: 8.976297e-22 A m^6 s
12:53:55 <HackEgo> Definition: 5 ft + 7 in = 1.7018 m
12:55:37 <ion> Hah, the story behind that is funny.
12:56:55 <ion> Especially given his current job.
12:57:17 <ion> s/current/last/
13:01:19 <Melvar> `` units 'light nanosecond' 'feet'
13:01:20 <HackEgo> * 0.98357106 \ / 1.0167034
13:03:57 <Melvar> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unusual_units_of_measurement
13:05:48 <HackEgo> Definition: 1e-24 barn = 1e-52 m^2
13:12:28 <HackEgo> Definition: shortbillion = 1e9 = 1e+09
13:12:35 <HackEgo> Definition: million^2 = 1e+12
13:14:39 <HackEgo> Definition: millikg = 1e-3 kg = 0.001 kg
13:16:08 <Melvar> ↑ lol @ millikg. But correct, since the kilogram is the base unit as defined in the SI.
13:17:28 <Melvar> IIRC it’s also the only one still defined by a prototype.
13:18:00 <fizzie> Yes, though they keep trying to get rid of that.
13:18:02 <Melvar> Which turns out to be a problem, since the prototype and its copies have been drifting relative to one another, as we can now measure.
13:21:24 <Melvar> `` units 'pi seconds' nanocentury
13:21:25 <HackEgo> * 0.9955319 \ / 1.0044882
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14:10:17 <tswett> So I decided to come up with an esolang that's pretty much an assembly language with a static, strong, and extremely flexible type system.
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14:11:25 <tswett> This turns out to be really complicated.
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14:16:37 <b_jonas> tswett: do you mean an assembly language where the output maps directly to some existing machine code, but the assembly language itself restricted by a type system so that it can find some errors and make programming easier?
14:17:16 <b_jonas> tswett: because that language almost exists, it's C
14:17:51 <b_jonas> except that C can copy structures by value
14:18:11 <tswett> Vaguely like C, except that it would be lower level, and the type system would be much more flexiblestrong.
14:18:46 <tswett> Like, consider a "dup" instruction, which duplicates the top word on the stack.
14:19:42 <tswett> This instruction would have the type "piece of code starting with a stack containing some initial stuff, then a word of type 'a', then some blank space, and ending with the original stuff, then two words of type 'a', then one word less blank space".
14:21:07 <tswett> Or something like "forall (i :: Mem) (a :: Word) (n :: Nat), i ** a ** (n + 1) Blank -> i ** a ** a ** n Blank"
14:21:37 <Melvar> Sounds like the sort of thing you’d do as an embedded DSL in Idris.
14:52:14 <tswett> I'll start by making the "little" version of the language. It'll make some simplifying assumptions, like that the stack has infinite room to grow.
14:53:12 <tswett> And that a word can store an entire arbitrary-precision natural number.
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15:36:58 <ajf> In Bash and some other languages, “fi” (“if” backwards) ends an if statement
15:37:06 <ajf> But I think it doesn’t have enough context
15:37:11 <ajf> So how about this?
15:37:16 <ajf> if (x == 3)
15:37:20 <ajf> fi x) == )3
15:37:27 <ajf> Or, for example
15:37:33 <ajf> if (foobar == qux)
15:37:44 <ajf> fi raboof( == )xuq
15:38:04 <ajf> I’ve got to use this in my next esoteric language ^^
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15:49:23 <Bike> syntactic rules unclear. better to use the negation. if (x == 3) fi (x != 3)
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15:53:19 <ajf> Bike: Ah, yes
15:53:33 <ajf> Also, it would intelligently understand english
15:53:34 <ajf> For example
15:53:46 <ajf> if (thing.delete(3))
15:53:53 <ajf> fi (thing.create(3))
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15:54:39 <ajf> Or maybe just prepend un
15:54:47 <ajf> if (thing.delete(foo))
15:54:52 <ajf> fi (unthing.undelete(unfoo))
15:55:01 <ajf> Similarly:
15:55:06 <ajf> if (unthing.undelete(unfoo))
15:55:16 <ajf> fi (ununthing.unundelete(ununfoo))
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16:14:57 <ais523> oh well, patch-tag just admitted that it isn't up any more
16:15:04 <ais523> but it did so via email with all its users in the To: field
16:15:15 <ais523> I wonder how many people will complain about that
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16:16:01 <ais523> ooh, someone complained via reply-all :-)
16:16:28 <ais523> if Raymond Chen's blog has taught me anything, it's that we're only 2 or 3 messages away from going exponential
16:17:42 <ais523> meanwhile, I discovered something in my research recently, and am wondering whether it's new (I hope it isn't, because it's confusing to think about and I'm hoping someone will have done the hard part already)
16:18:28 <int-e> ais523: any out of office replies?
16:18:30 <ais523> when you have a type like "a -> b -> a", that's shorthand for "forall a, b.a -> b -> a"
16:18:37 <ais523> int-e: not reply-all'ed
16:18:56 <ais523> I've come across a type of the form "forall a.exists b.a -> b -> a"
16:19:01 <ais523> and want to know if anyone's ever seen anything like that before
16:19:07 <int-e> (imagine two reply-all out of office replies playing ping pong)
16:19:15 <ais523> surely it's got to exist as some obscure GHC feature or something
16:19:39 <b_jonas> ais523: it does exist as a very useful ghc extension, yes
16:19:48 <b_jonas> and has some surprising applications too
16:19:51 <ais523> are there any academic papers about it?
16:19:54 <b_jonas> you'd better ask on #haskell
16:20:24 <b_jonas> I'm not sure what it's called, maybe higher-order types?
16:20:59 <ais523> b_jonas: no, a higher-order type is one in which a function is used as an argument to another function
16:21:55 <ais523> that's types of the form (forall a.a -> a) -> b
16:22:00 <int-e> ghc limits itself to 'forall' though.
16:22:03 <ais523> where the forall is inside parens rather than on the outside
16:22:16 <b_jonas> isn't that like equivalent though?
16:22:28 <b_jonas> don't you get exists free from foreach or from gadt or something?
16:24:03 <b_jonas> this is about the syntax of the extension in ghc: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/7.8.2/html/users_guide/data-type-extensions.html#existential-quantification
16:24:25 <b_jonas> though you may have to read it together with other extensions like gadt and stuff
16:24:32 <b_jonas> but as for the applications, better ask #haskell
16:26:43 <oerjan> gadt's include existentials as a subfeature
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16:26:59 <oerjan> <oerjan> gadt's include existentials as a subfeature
16:28:32 <int-e> I guess forall a.exists b. a -> b -> a === forall a r.(forall b. (a -> b -> a) -> r) -> r
16:28:48 <ais523_> right, but now the type has a different shape
16:28:52 <oerjan> b_jonas: ghc uses forall in some positions to denote existentials, essentially by demorgan duality
16:29:03 <ais523_> but yes, I was coming to that conclusion myself
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16:29:23 <ais523_> the (f === (f -> r) -> r) equivalence is often useful in practice for notating types that would otherwise be un-notatable
16:29:50 <oerjan> data YourType a where MyConstructor :: (a -> b -> a) -> YourType a
16:30:12 <oerjan> i think that's gadt for exists b. (a -> b -> a)
16:30:14 <int-e> existential datatypes are based on the same trick; if you look at a constructor, you get things like Foo :: forall b. b -> Foo
16:31:08 <oerjan> or without gadt's, data YourType a = forall b. MyConstructor (a -> b -> a)
16:32:15 <int-e> so how is this useful? the only thing I can ever imagine passing for the argument of type 'b' is 'undefined'.
16:32:27 <oerjan> i don't see how this particular type is useful
16:32:40 <oerjan> since you can indeed never know what to pass to it
16:33:02 <ais523_> well, I don't think I've explained the situation very well
16:33:22 <ais523_> the actual case I have is a function which, given the type of its return value, constructs matching types for the two arguments
16:33:33 <ais523_> however, it doesn't always do so the same way
16:33:54 <b_jonas> ais523_: I really recommend you to ask on #haskell
16:34:05 <ais523_> this is too esoteric for #haskell :-)
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16:34:25 <ais523_> I don't think it works in Haskell because such a function necessarily has to be impure
16:34:34 <b_jonas> too esoteric for #haskell ? no way!
16:35:04 <ais523_> I need to work out exactly how it is that this type behaves, at least
16:35:34 <int-e> a function of type Foo a => a -> exists b. (b, a -> b -> a) could make perfect sense
16:35:34 <ais523_> so, the situation is, I have a type that represents a value that's only valid for a particular, abstract, period of time
16:35:53 <ais523_> and the main operation that makes sense on these periods is taking the union
16:35:54 <int-e> (note the type class, so that it can do different things depending on the type of a.)
16:35:54 <b_jonas> ais523_: like the thingies in ST?
16:35:58 <oerjan> ais523_: i think what you mean is that your function must be non-parametric
16:36:12 <oerjan> you have to be able to distinguish types.
16:36:27 <oerjan> also, come to think of it, there clearly is a value of that type: const
16:36:34 <ais523_> so, e.g., the type of sequential composition (i.e. "do a then b" is t1.command -> t2.command -> (t1 + t2).command)
16:36:45 <oerjan> it just happens to have the type forall a b. a -> b -> a, which is stronger.
16:36:54 <ais523_> except, if I have two sequential compositions that both return a (t1 + t2).command
16:37:02 <ais523_> they might need different t1s and t2s
16:37:15 <ais523_> because we can't guarantee that the first argument to each will end at the exact same time
16:37:16 <int-e> (I know, seq is just const's evil twin)
16:37:53 <b_jonas> ais523_: dunno, still sounds sort of like ST
16:38:07 <ais523_> it's basically just a mess
16:38:30 <ais523_> it seems to be the same sort of category as a name generator function, just on types, rather than values
16:38:39 <int-e> ais523: sounds like 'unamb' here: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/unamb-0.2.5/docs/Data-Unamb.html
16:39:03 <ais523_> (what a name generator function does is, everytime you call it, it returns a different value; the only meaningful operation you can do on such values is compare them to themselves (equal), and compare them to each other (unequal))
16:39:16 <int-e> oerjan is probably right ;)
16:39:36 <ais523_> "non-parametric" is a good word for this sort of thing, yes
16:39:41 <ais523_> or rather, it's coparametric
16:40:01 <ais523_> instead of working on multiple types, determined by the context
16:40:07 <int-e> oleg has some stuff on monadic regions
16:40:10 <ais523_> it determines which types the context must have
16:40:38 <b_jonas> still sounds like ST magic
16:40:40 <int-e> which may also be relevant.
16:40:47 <b_jonas> (magic in the positive sense)
16:40:49 <ais523_> oh wow, Google only has 10 results for "coparametric", all of which are irrelevant
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16:42:12 <b_jonas> ais523_: read up on how ST works, or ask #haskell how it works, because I think you want somethign close to that
16:42:15 <oerjan> we need to get copumpkin and edwardk to invent something relevant
16:42:58 <idris-bot> Data type Exists : (P : a -> Type) -> Type
16:42:58 <idris-bot> Dependent pair where the first field is erased.
16:42:58 <idris-bot> evidence : (x : a) -> (pf : P x) -> Exists P
16:43:03 <b_jonas> or ask #haskell where to read up on it
16:44:22 <Melvar> ( (a : Type) -> Exists (\b => a -> b -> a)
16:44:22 <idris-bot> (a : Type) -> Exists (\b => a -> b -> a) : Type
16:44:25 <int-e> from Control.Monad.ST: "This library provides support for strict state threads, as described in the PLDI '94 paper by John Launchbury and Simon Peyton Jones Lazy Functional State Threads."
16:45:59 <ais523_> this isn't much to do with ST, I don't think
16:46:36 <Melvar> You can produce a value of this type, but you can’t do anything with it because pattern matching on types is forbidden.
16:47:28 <ais523_> b_jonas: because ST is a monad which has run-time behaviour
16:47:38 <ais523_> and this is all at the type system level
16:48:00 <ais523_> Melvar: are there any applications of Idris' Exists?
16:48:49 <b_jonas> ais523_: but I mean the type system magic part of ST
16:48:56 <Melvar> ( the (Exists (\n => Vect n Integer)) $ evidence _ [1,2,3]
16:48:56 <idris-bot> evidence 3 [1, 2, 3] : Exists (\n => Vect n Integer)
16:49:06 <b_jonas> ST stuff have a type too, not only runtime behaviour
16:49:08 <Melvar> ( the (Exists (\n => Vect n Integer)) $ evidence _ [1,2,3,4,5]
16:49:08 <idris-bot> evidence 5 [1, 2, 3, 4, 5] : Exists (\n => Vect n Integer)
16:49:37 <int-e> @type Control.Monad.ST.runST
16:50:22 <ais523_> in my case, I want other functions to be able to generate values of the hidden types, but only by being parametric on them
16:50:24 <Melvar> You can use it to allow any value for some index of a type.
16:50:27 <int-e> @type Data.STRef.newSTRef
16:50:27 <olsner> was the point in the original "forall a. exists b. a -> b -> a" that b depends on a in some special way?
16:50:28 <ais523_> and then I have to bundle all this into a type system somehow
16:50:47 <ais523_> Melvar: is the _ being inferred somehow?
16:51:11 <Melvar> ais523_: _ means “fill this in by unification”.
16:51:13 <int-e> (that's pretty much the whole magic: the "STRef" has a phantom type parameter 's' that binds it to a particular call of 'runST')
16:51:14 <b_jonas> @type Control.Monad.ST.runST
16:52:31 <olsner> if so, maybe a type family or a type class with an associated type or fundeps could do it?
16:54:06 <Melvar> ais523_: The thing is that [1,2,3] is definitely a (Vect 3 Integer), and unification with the type of evidence thus determines what its first argument must be.
16:54:55 <ais523_> most of the work is done by evidence, rather than Exists, it seems; but you can only create an Exists using an evidence
16:54:57 <ais523_> so that doesn't really matter
16:55:32 <Melvar> I don’t really see how the two are extricable.
16:57:16 <Melvar> Also, with Exists the first value is erased, i.e. the compiler will do its best to make it not exist at runtime.
16:57:51 <Melvar> Which corresponds to one of the three interpretations of a dependent pair, the other two corresponding to Sigma and Subset.
16:57:59 <idris-bot> Data type Sigma : (a : Type) -> (P : a -> Type) -> Type
16:57:59 <idris-bot> Dependent pairs, in their internal representation
16:57:59 <idris-bot> a : Type -- the type of the witness
16:57:59 <idris-bot> P : a -> Type -- the type of the proof↵…
16:58:11 <idris-bot> Data type Subset : (a : Type) -> (P : a -> Type) -> Type
16:58:11 <idris-bot> Dependent pair where the second field is erased.
16:58:11 <idris-bot> element : (x : a) -> (pf : P x) -> Subset a P
16:58:54 <ais523_> anyway, I now know to not try to write this explanation in terms of exists, because it's just subtly different enough from the usual meaning that it'd confuse people
17:01:55 <ais523_> "copolymorphism" is a good definition of what's going on here, and has 1 Google hit, which is irrelevant
17:04:50 <tswett> This sounds complicated.
17:06:28 <ais523> I'm not surprised that I've been stuck on it for months
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17:07:43 <tswett> Like my attempts to write linear logic types as Haskell types.
17:08:00 <oerjan> you're just doing things man was not meant to know hth
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17:09:15 <tswett> Of course, it doesn't really make sense to simply write a linear logic type as a Haskell type, because the very existence of a Haskell type for an object implies that you can do things you may not be able to do with a linear object.
17:10:31 <tswett> Like, an LL function "(a * a) -o (a * a)" isn't a Haskell function "(a, a) -> (a, a)", because the LL function must be called exactly once, and the Haskell type doesn't express that restriction.
17:10:56 <tswett> Indeed, linear objects can't actually exist in Haskell, at least not as Haskell objects.
17:11:40 <tswett> The things that *can* exist are Haskell objects that happen to somehow implement LL objects.
17:12:36 <tswett> So, we might say that the Haskell type "Pf A" denotes a Haskell object that can be used as an LL object whose type is A.
17:14:05 <Melvar> tswett: By “-o”, did you mean “⊸”?
17:14:25 <tswett> The problem is, Pf doesn't distribute. (Or factor through or whatever).
17:14:41 <tswett> You can't write Pf (A -o B) in terms of Pf A and Pf B.
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17:15:20 <tswett> Pf Zero and Pf Bottom are both the same thing (the empty type), because there are no Haskell objects which behave as either a Zero or a Bottom.
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17:16:58 <tswett> However, while Pf (Zero -o Bottom), Pf (Zero -o Zero), and Pf (Bottom -o Bottom) all exist (they're exfalso, exfalso, and id, respectively), Pf (Bottom -o Zero) doesn't exist.
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18:04:33 <tswett> Hmm. Using | to represent the par operator, those are Pf (Top | Bottom), Pf (Top | Zero), Pf (One | Bottom), and Pf (One | Zero). Might be easier to think about, I dunno.
18:05:11 <tswett> Pf Top and Pf One both exist. Pf (Top | Zero) exists, but Pf (One | Zero) doesn't.
18:06:50 <tswett> This is because an object obeying the Top protocol can keep making requests forever, so in order to obey the Top | Zero protocol (which requires you to obey both protocols in the order of your choice), you can just make requests forever.
18:07:33 <tswett> But an object obeying the One protocol just sits there and does nothing. In order to obey the One | Zero protocol, you have to obey both protocols in the order of your choice. You can obey the One protocol, but then that protocol will terminate, and you'll have to obey the Zero protocol, which is impossible.
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18:31:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ligature Machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40111&oldid=40107 * Zzo38 * (+449)
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20:54:09 <tswett> So, what's the best unusable esolang?
20:54:33 <Bicyclidine> Most ever Brainfuckiest Fuck you Brain fucker Fuck
20:55:18 <tswett> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Minimum – I like this one.
20:55:33 <tswett> The language's syntax:
20:55:42 <tswett> <program> ::= "`" <program> <program>
20:56:28 <nooodl> i like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Subtle_cough
20:56:39 <nooodl> i guess minimum is the EXTREME version of subtle cough
20:57:35 <ais523> at least, in Subtle Cough, it looks vaguely like it might be TC, but it isn't
20:57:59 <ais523> in Minimum, it's hard to even write the program (there is only one program), and it's also hard to figure out what it is that that program does
20:58:57 <tswett> There's only a program if you interpret the syntax coinductively instead of inductively.
20:59:07 <lambdabot> "```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````...
20:59:24 <Bicyclidine> in my scientific opinion the program does bupkis
20:59:27 <tswett> And evaluation of Unlambdoids is defined inductively, not coinductively.
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21:07:53 <tswett> A program consists of a sequence of digits. Execution consists of repeatedly selecting an unspecified pair of identical digits, and replacing the digits and everything between them with a number of copies of the stuff in between them equal to that digit.
21:08:07 <tswett> So, like, the program 51235 becomes 123123123123123.
21:08:22 <tswett> And then that program probably explodes or something.
21:08:41 <ais523> tswett: reminds me of XigXag
21:08:47 <Bicyclidine> i don't think this is as suitable to bicyclidal enterprises as Most ever Brainfuckiest Fuck you Brain fucker Fuck is
21:08:58 <ais523> which is currently along with Dupdog in the "we're sure this isn't TC but can't quite articulate why" category
21:09:26 <ais523> tswett: aren't all 1s completely irrelevant in that language?
21:09:30 <ais523> you could do interesting things with 0s, though
21:09:36 <tswett> I guess they are, yeah.
21:09:48 <tswett> The only thing 1s ever do is vanish.
21:10:13 <tswett> (Also, SLOBOL needs to be replaced.)
21:10:36 <tswett> Ooh. Ooh. We need a language based on diffusion-limited aggregation.
21:10:57 <elliott> can become 113 can become 33333333333
21:11:32 <ais523> elliott: no, 113 can only become 3
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21:12:08 <elliott> I was thinking look-and-say
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21:24:15 <nooodl> "<ais523> [...] it's also hard to figure out what it is that that program does" <- i guess it just does nothing and never terminates?
21:24:43 <ais523> nooodl: you go into an infinite regress trying to work out what happens first
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22:14:00 <boily> when you're subscribed to Bixi you get a log of all time you use a bike, with end stations and the time it took.
22:14:25 <boily> (or something ungrammatical like that)
22:14:54 <boily> the trajet back home from work is uphill, with uphill slopes that go up.
22:14:59 <boily> tonight I broke my record! :D
22:21:49 <FireFly> tswett: is this numbers thing on the wiki?
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22:48:24 <tswett> FireFly: no, it isn't.
22:49:11 <tswett> Stupid programming language:
22:49:24 <tswett> There are four commands: n, e, s, and w.
22:50:05 <tswett> The state is a point in space.
22:50:18 <tswett> The point is initially (0, 0, 1).
22:50:45 <tswett> n rotates the point one radian clockwise about the x-axis as seen from the positive direction.
22:51:06 <tswett> e rotates the point one radian counterclockwise about the y-axis as seen from the positive direction.
22:51:10 <tswett> s undoes n. w undoes e.
22:53:19 <ais523_> any sort of conditional branch?
22:53:34 <ais523_> if there is, I wouldn't be able to say definitively that it isn't TC
22:53:59 <ais523_> at least, not without more thought
22:54:02 <tswett> Parentheses mean "loop while z > 0".
22:54:13 <tswett> Now is it Turing-complete?
22:54:25 <boily> what can it compute?
22:54:28 <ais523_> it doesn't fail any of the checks that make a language obviously Turing-incomplete
22:54:41 <FireFly> Wouln't a (non-looping) conditional suffice if a looping one does?
22:54:50 <ais523_> FireFly: no, because then the program always halts
22:55:14 <FireFly> I mean, you could get loopedness by applying one of the rotation commands sufficiently
22:55:41 <ais523_> you're confusing loops in the program with loops in the data
22:56:25 <tswett> In theory, you can store an arbitrary amount of data here.
22:56:39 <tswett> Like, you can sort of use the point as two registers storing integers up to a certain limit.
22:56:47 <tswett> Increment and decrement the integers using tiny rotations.
22:57:02 <tswett> But the two registers interfere with each other.
22:57:46 <tswett> Also, instructions are written from right to left, just for the hell.
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22:58:54 <boily> tswett: itym “just for the AP-heLL”
23:00:21 <boily> bad pun, poorly written. you said that it's written RTL, just like APL.
23:00:33 * boily mapoles himself a few times in penance
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23:03:46 <tswett> This company I want to work for asks me to "show me some interesting code you've written and walk me through it". I'm trying to think if I've really written any interesting code.
23:06:19 <tswett> Here's something called FPS.hs. I can't remember what it is at all.
23:06:36 <Bicyclidine> estimates the frames per second for an attached process running Quake
23:06:42 <tswett> (FPS xs) * (FPS ys) = FPS . map (sum . map (uncurry (*))) . tail $ convolute xs ys
23:06:45 <tswett> Bicyclidine: probably.
23:08:09 <Melvar> What does convolute do?
23:08:25 <boily> it does a convolution, duh :P
23:08:53 <tswett> convolute :: [a] -> [b] -> [[(a,b)]]
23:09:21 <tswett> That's not quite convolution actually is.
23:09:40 <boily> I expected convolute :: [a] -> [a] -> [a].
23:09:52 <Bicyclidine> well, that's why tswett is walking you through it, now isn't it
23:11:54 * tswett looks through his code.
23:13:36 <tswett> In my Docs/Programming directory, I have an HTML directory.
23:13:51 <tswett> I looked in there expecting to find some cute Javascript things.
23:14:12 <tswett> Turns out that the only thing in there is a single HTML file. And sure enough, it's pure HTML, with no Javascript at all.
23:14:30 <tswett> Well, I guess half of it is CSS.
23:17:29 <tswett> Sweet. I have my implementation of Subleq in Verilog.
23:18:26 <tswett> Oh yeah? Explain this!
23:18:29 <ais523_> convolution doesn't necessarily apply only to lists, but it requires some sort of sum
23:19:11 <tswett> subleq: https://clbin.com/VZNL5
23:19:15 <ais523_> I think the definition is "convolute f g x = sum (d from -infinity to infinity) of f(x-d) * g(d)"
23:19:38 <ais523_> for any appropriate definitions of -, *, sum you can think of
23:20:13 <Bicyclidine> probably you can use something other than the reals to sum over, too
23:20:50 <Bicyclidine> yeah looks like there's a simple extension to higher dimensions, for a start
23:21:07 <ais523_> err yes, I should probably rephrase it like this
23:21:29 <ais523_> "convolute f g x = sum (all y, z st y + z = x) f(y) * g(z)"
23:22:00 <elliott> this seems a bit...........................................................
23:22:16 <ais523_> convolution isn't a very simple operation
23:22:33 <Bicyclidine> psh it's just a product on the space of functions
23:22:52 <Bicyclidine> functions on arbitrary groups as long as they're measurable, looks like
23:23:01 <Bicyclidine> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/f/5/3/f53180acc7806c4139550527dcaa6a13.png booyeah
23:24:03 <Bicyclidine> as for me, i'm just amused that convolve is the standard way to multiply polynomials in matlab.
23:24:23 * tswett ponders the convolution of polynomials.
23:24:48 <tswett> Of polynomial functions, not polynomial expressions.
23:28:04 <Sgeo> This is interesting: http://ddili.org/ders/d.en/ufcs.html
23:28:20 <Sgeo> Like extension methods except not required to explicitly be extension methods
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23:28:39 <Sgeo> Removes temptation to make a method part of a class just for nicer syntax, I think.
23:29:29 <Bicyclidine> i just checked that the product of polynomials is not their convolution, because i'm an idiot i think
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23:31:37 <tswett> You know, the hyperreal numbers are quite the thing.
23:32:43 <Sgeo> What about the hyporeal numbers?
23:33:35 <tswett> Nah, the hyporeal numbers are clearly the dyadic rationals.
23:33:51 <Bicyclidine> well, i guess you'd want a transfer principle.
23:34:50 <tswett> If the hyperreal numbers are an enlarged model of the real numbers (in some sense), then the hyporeal numbers must be a shrunk model.
23:34:58 <tswett> Maybe the hyporeal numbers are the definable numbers.
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23:36:49 <Sgeo> Let alpha be the smallest positive non-definable number.
23:37:12 <tswett> But there's no such number.
23:37:25 <Bicyclidine> haha, that's a way better response than mine
23:38:15 <Sgeo> Right, because the definable numbers are just another way of saying 'interesting number' ;)
23:38:42 <Bicyclidine> no, because there isn't a smallest positive non-definable real any more than there's a smallest positive real
23:38:57 <Bicyclidine> of course, on top of that the defining language is something like first-order set theory that you can't recurse in.
23:39:16 <Sgeo> Bike: I know. (At least that first sentence)
23:40:24 <Bicyclidine> well i guess you could pick some weird fucking order, but fuck that
23:40:31 <tswett> (Consider alpha/2. Contradiction.)
23:40:36 <Bicyclidine> apparently there's a film called zorn's lemma? huh
23:40:55 <Sgeo> tswett: ... I assume that was a joke
23:40:56 <Bicyclidine> Zorns Lemma is a major poetic work. Created and put together by a very clear eye, this original and complex abstract work moves beyond the letters of the alphabet, beyond words and beyond Freud. If you don't understand it the first time you see it, don't despair, see it again! When you finally 'get it,' a small light, possibly a candle, will light itself inside your forehead.
23:41:09 <Sgeo> (In that my statement itself is inherently contradictory)
23:41:11 <Bicyclidine> we have entered an infinite recursion of humor
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01:08:13 <boily> in a strange case of “There's a Trope for That”, I just learned that there is such a thing → http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CanadaDoesNotExist
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01:12:50 <boily> the USA should split and regroup with some provinces to form Americanada.
01:15:57 <Slereah_> http://www.rathergood.com/beta_recordings
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01:37:36 <Sgeo> I love how questions like "What is the type of ('a' ** 'b'), and does it typecheck?" depend on the type you try to give it explicitly
01:38:01 <Sgeo> I guess you can do similar things in Haskell to some extent
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03:09:55 <Sgeo> http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/08/health/smallpox-virus-found/index.html?hpt=hp_c2
03:10:24 <Bike> still pretty sure the correct reaction to seeing a vial labeled "VARIOLA" in a freezer is screaming
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04:06:41 <Sgeo> I think my mom wrote a scientific paper
04:08:02 <Sgeo> I can't access it right now, the only source I found is behind a pay wall, not going to do that tonight
04:08:21 <Bike> if you give me a doi or something i could probably grab a copy.
04:09:16 <Sgeo> I don't know what a doi is, but I can link the two places I see it
04:09:27 <Sgeo> http://journals.lww.com/ajnonline/Citation/1996/11000/PSYCHIATRIC_NURSING__Relaxation_Exercises_Reduce.7.aspx http://jhn.sagepub.com/content/14/3/196.short
04:09:50 <Bike> Document Object Identifier, a GUID system for papers. it'd basically just give me the second link there though.
04:15:13 <Bike> my school doesn't have access to papers from earlier than 2012. sorr-e.
04:16:24 <Sgeo> Ok, thank you anyway
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04:31:40 <callforjudgement> the DOI only ever redirects to an official publisher's website that's pretty useless
04:31:59 <callforjudgement> it's mostly useful for getting citation info so that you can search for the paper properly
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04:33:00 <Bike> callforjudgement: yeah, that's mostly what i use it for. sometimes navigating publishers' sites sucks.
04:33:03 <Bike> most of the time.
04:33:10 <JWinslow23> I'm searching for a language, but I can't find the page for the life of me.
04:33:33 <callforjudgement> if you describe the language, we can see if any of us remembers
04:33:41 <callforjudgement> alternatively, if it's simple enough, we could just create it on the spot
04:33:59 <JWinslow23> OK...lessee...the esolang is two-dimensional...
04:34:18 <Bike> i think there's a category for befunge-likes
04:34:30 <JWinslow23> ...and its layout was supposed to overlay a table of all the ASCII values...
04:34:55 <JWinslow23> ...I'm pretty sure there's a Hello World Program made for it...the only program made for it...
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04:54:29 <JWinslow23> I have this one idea for a 1L-type esolang, but it might be too hard to program in.
04:57:26 <coppro> JWinslow23: too hard to program in is the point
04:58:14 <JWinslow23> Non space: Some instruction, depending on placrment.
04:59:55 <JWinslow23> (corresponding to + - > < , . in brainf***)
05:00:48 <JWinslow23> Starts at INC, and turns the wheel with every forward movement of the instruction pointer.
05:03:11 <JWinslow23> Anyways, so if an instruction is reached, then execute the current command on the wheel.
05:04:20 <JWinslow23> If an instruction is to the direct left or right of the pointer, then move in the direction opposite the insttuction.
05:05:22 <JWinslow23> If it is one space forwards and one to the side, then turn ss described ONLY IF the current memory cell is nonzero.
05:06:31 <JWinslow23> If at any time the pointer is out of bounds, the program terminates.
05:07:51 <JWinslow23> It added ROTC, ROTCC, ROTCIF, and ROTCCIF.
05:08:36 <JWinslow23> (rotate clockwise, counterclockwise, clockwise if current cell is nonzero, counter
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05:58:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Arborealis]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40112&oldid=40087 * Dweymouth * (+599) question
05:58:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Arborealis]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40113&oldid=40112 * Dweymouth * (+1) new paragraph
06:15:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbrain]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40114&oldid=36165 * Rdebath * (+159) Add table and retrieve execution explanation from history.
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11:04:52 <boily> AAAAAH! I FORGOT TO BREAKFAST!
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16:05:31 <JWinslow23> "Output: values displayed as characters."
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18:26:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Everett]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40115&oldid=37786 * 162.157.73.59 * (-6)
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18:48:13 <oerjan> why is metasepia conspicuously absent whenever it's too damn hot here
18:48:58 <oerjan> (obvious answer: because boily is only here when it's night in norway.)
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18:50:32 <oerjan> fine, let me paste in from the web: METAR: ENVA 091820Z 15005KT CAVOK 30/14 Q1016 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 16014KT
18:51:00 <oerjan> @tell boily METAR: ENVA 091820Z 15005KT CAVOK 30/14 Q1016 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 16014KT
18:52:43 <oerjan> oh no the weather forecast has changed, now it says 29-30 for the two next evenings as well ;_;
18:54:07 <oerjan> maybe friday will start getting livable again
18:56:24 <oerjan> on the plus side, my apartment is keeping cool. i am wondering if the AC has genuine cooling
18:57:41 <ais523> it's not an AC without that, just a fan heater
18:57:49 <ais523> or, well, if it dehumidifies without cooling, that would also make it an AC
18:58:05 <ais523> but that's a really pointless thing to do because cooling and dehumidifying are pretty similarly implemented
18:58:29 <oerjan> well the thing is in norway heating is usually more needed than cooling
18:59:23 <oerjan> this last week being an exception
19:00:05 <ais523> so the theory is that they might just install a fan heater because it's all that most Norwegians would be likely to need?
19:00:56 <oerjan> however, that's probably changed with the modern green housing
19:01:20 <oerjan> now the houses are supposed not to leak heat whenever possible
19:03:46 <oerjan> which means the air circulation system needs a heat pump.
19:10:04 <oerjan> hm the manual says there's a thermostat for it, but there is no door in the system to get to adjust it
19:11:44 <oerjan> speaks about "varmeveksler" which translates as "heat exchanger"
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20:24:17 <Taneb> Help someone just called me "Nathan van Wolfstein 3-D"
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20:28:49 <ais523> misinterpret the "3-D" as a smiley
20:29:25 <fizzie> It's also missing an "en".
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20:31:19 <Taneb> That was me, sorry
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21:11:04 <ais523> well there's a g in ngevd
21:13:09 <Taneb> ais523, that g stand for George
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21:27:25 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, elliott, succession fort once the DF bugfix versions are coming out?
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22:45:00 <ais523_> hmm, doesn't the tutorial on the new Haskell homepage fail for people whose names have their letters in ASCIIbetical order?
22:46:50 <shachaf> Perhaps your evil twin has the same name as you.
22:47:07 <shachaf> Perhaps you are the evil twin.
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22:48:00 <boily> perhaps you are the resonance between two elemental twins?
22:50:08 <ais523_> "like ais523, but less evil" is a scary thought
22:50:12 <ais523_> although I conclude that it's possible
22:50:36 <lambdabot> oerjan said 3h 59m 35s ago: METAR: ENVA 091820Z 15005KT CAVOK 30/14 Q1016 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 16014KT
22:50:49 <boily> oerjan: GASP! +30 in Norway?
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22:51:12 <metasepia> CYUL 092200Z 26009KT 30SM FEW040 FEW060 22/14 A2980 RMK CU1SC1 SLP091 DENSITY ALT 1100FT
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22:51:25 <boily> noooooooooooo! I won't accept that! unpossible!
22:51:33 <ais523_> boily: oerjan's been talking about how this is the first time it's ever been relevant that his AC is not just a fan heater
22:53:50 <boily> we live in interesting times...
22:55:23 <oerjan> the norwegian definition of "tropical night" is a night where temperatures never go below 20. apparently this heat wave is the first time trondheim has ever had two such nights in a row.
22:57:06 * boily wildly flails around in utter disbelievement. “twenty puny degrees? NONSENSE!”
22:58:18 <ais523> 20 is one of those numbers that's very different in C and F
22:58:44 <oerjan> mind you, that happened _before_ day temperatures crept up to 30
22:59:01 <oerjan> or well that was actually evening in that metar
23:01:26 <ais523> why are separation types so hard to find information about in search engines
23:01:39 <ais523> my problem is that "separation" and "type" are both pretty common words
23:01:53 <ais523> so I have to add extra words that don't match my query but are commonly used in the field, like "proof"
23:01:57 <ais523> to increase the number of relevant results
23:02:34 <ais523> ah, "separation logic" is the more usual term
23:02:42 <ais523> silly curry-howard, confusing terminology for everyone
23:03:52 <ais523> anyway, I'm not quite sure how to move forwards at this point; I basically have two methods
23:04:06 <oerjan> ok this article says today was the hottest day in trondheim since 1945.
23:04:16 <ais523> one is the copout of effectively defining one specific rank-2 type as a special case in the syntax
23:04:46 <ais523> which basically gives me a language with half the limitations of SCI, which is nonetheless better than SCI because it doesn't have the other half
23:05:10 <ais523> and the other method is to attempt to find some sort of definition of copolymorphism, which is awkward because the language doesn't have polymorphism
23:05:15 <ais523> (except in the C++ template sense)
23:06:03 <ais523> hmm… in Algol 68, "skip" was an arbitrary value of any given data type
23:06:09 <ais523> but in mathematical Algol, it's a no-op command
23:06:23 <ais523> oh, that sort-of makes sense
23:06:25 <oerjan> i think haskell's ST may originally have been implemented as a special case before rank-2 types were implemented generally.
23:06:51 <ais523> anyway, all this mess came about because SCI is pretty awkward as type systems go
23:07:02 <ais523> back when I was a first-year PhD student, it became reasonable
23:07:15 <ais523> but I started coming across more and more awkwardnesses
23:07:35 <ais523> and some time after I'd decided it lead to a bunch of problems, I showed it to a conference full of linear logicians
23:07:54 <ais523> and the typical reaction was "why would you do that?"
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23:08:57 <ais523> SCI isn't really very eso as languages go, I suppose
23:09:21 <ais523> its main weird/eso feature is that "f x y" and "f (x, y)" are not actually interchangeable
23:09:29 <ais523> curry exists, but uncurry doesn't
23:10:12 <Sgeo> Noted: My dad still is not reliable, and my opinion is _still_ worthless to him
23:10:23 -!- not^v has quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/Akc6r.gif).
23:10:50 <ais523> ^v's alternate nick's username is confusing me a bunch
23:11:01 <ais523> mostly because I'm unsure whether to interpret the tilde as another "not"
23:11:19 <oerjan> argh now the 29 degrees is extending to the saturday forecast as well
23:12:06 <Sgeo> Well, ^v is not v, so not^v is not not v, so not^v is v, so not^v and ^v are different people
23:12:46 <ais523> so which of them is ~notnot^v?
23:12:53 <metasepia> Tweedledum and Tweedledee are fictional characters in an English nursery rhyme and in Lewis Carroll's Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There. Their names may have originally come from an epigram written by poet John Byrom. The nursery rhyme has a Roud Folk Song Index number of 19800. The names have since become synonymous in western popular culture slang for any two people who look and act in identical ways, generally in a derogatory c
23:13:15 * boily 's mapole swing misses, goes around, and thwacks boily behind the head
23:16:10 <ais523> hmm: "two things are proved equivalent, and yet people continue using both sets of terminology" is something that I already hate, despite only having got caught up on it a few minutes ago
23:16:47 <Sgeo> Turing machine and lambda calculus are equivalent in a sense, but still distinct
23:18:16 <ais523> bleh, I ate dinner just an hour or so ago, do I eat antilunch already?
23:18:21 <ais523> I guess I may as well, given that I'm hungry
23:20:25 <ais523> another thing that annoys me: I have two keyboards within about 25 centimetres of me; both have numlock keys; neither has a particularly noticeable numlock indicator
23:20:47 <ais523> the laptop keyboard doesn't seem to have one at all; the desktop keyboard in AZERTY does but it's basically impossible to see at this distance, and this distance is not very long
23:23:20 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover: I thought it was relevant to ais523's complaint
23:24:11 <ais523> well, the advantage there is that there isn't a 1-to-1 correspondence between Turing machine components and lambda calculus components
23:24:18 <ais523> so you don't get people naming one after the other, inconsistently
23:25:02 <ais523> also, I just saw an interrobang used in a context where a question mark would have made the sentence have an entirely different meaning
23:25:09 <ais523> this saddens me, because I dislike interrobangs
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23:25:25 <ais523> an exclamation mark would probably have worked, I guess
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23:55:50 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, that's the entire reason interrobangs are a good idea...
23:57:49 <Melvar> ais523: You use numlock?
23:58:12 <ais523> Melvar: if I'm using the numeric keypad for almost anything (except playing NH4), the state of numlock is relevant
23:58:22 <ais523> so it helps to know whether it's on or off before I start pressing buttons
23:59:03 <Melvar> On that note, what do you use the keypad for on a non-neo keyboard layout?
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00:00:05 <ais523> sometimes I just use it because it's nearer to the edge of the keyboard
00:00:13 <ais523> like, I scroll down with 2 if I'm trying to hold the laptop in midair
00:00:24 <ais523> because I want my hands at the left and right ends of the keyboard, and neither can reach the arrow keys
00:00:38 <Melvar> http://neo-layout.org/
00:01:37 <Melvar> See plane 4 for the bits that also occur to the right of the main keyboard.
00:02:22 <Melvar> Phantom_Hoover: Not this one.
00:02:52 <Melvar> Ooh. I didn’t remember I had that symbol …
00:04:59 <boily> after the multiocular o, the triple l used to spell Melvar's true name.
00:05:35 <HackEgo> 1140) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
00:06:50 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.1213
00:07:29 <Melvar> I keep forgetting about the symbols in the higher planes of the keypad.
00:08:40 <HackEgo> [U+0076 LATIN SMALL LETTER V] [U+20D7 COMBINING RIGHT ARROW ABOVE]
00:10:03 <ais523_> it doesn't combine in this webclient
00:10:11 <ais523_> I just get a v, and a small right arrow next to and above it
00:10:49 <Melvar> It combines for me, but not really nicely.
00:10:57 <ais523_> fizzie: btw, I had a new idea for a fungot corpus: the glibc and coreutils info documentation
00:10:57 <fungot> ais523_: if it were a string ( value) but i diverged. but
00:16:16 <Bike> ais523_: mul-ti-oc-u-lar-ohs
00:18:44 <boily> fungot: how many ohs in a multiocular o?
00:18:45 <fungot> boily: and her english is worse than that extra append.) well, sure
00:19:03 <boily> fungot: so, the more the worsier?
00:19:03 <fungot> boily: sounds too good to make it not exist
00:19:12 <boily> the fungot approves!
00:19:12 <fungot> boily: ( display ( list ( cadddr lst)))
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00:39:13 <Sgeo> enum + dependent pair = arbitrary sum types?
00:39:26 <Sgeo> Well, enum + depenent pair + function from enum to type
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01:23:37 <HackEgo> 696) <olsner> what a world it would be if you could actually *steal* code so that the other project has to rewrite it or infiltrate your project to steal it back
01:23:47 <ais523_> you can steal data from other processes in CLC-INTERCAL
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01:23:55 <ais523_> unless it's read-only, then you can smuggle out copies instead
01:24:29 <JWinslow23> Can anyone point me to a good golf language on the wiki?
01:24:44 <ais523_> depends on what you're trying to gold
01:24:57 <ais523_> FlogScript is also a good golf language but I'm not sure it's on the Wiki
01:25:02 <ais523_> Perl is technically on the wiki but shouldn't be
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01:25:08 <ais523_> Underload is good for writing quine variants
01:25:31 <ais523_> most of my attempts to design golf languages end up as vaporware
01:25:53 <ais523_> I have a mostly complete spec for that, but I'm not sure it's on the wiki yet
01:26:06 <ais523_> also most of its features were independently added to Perl anyway
01:26:19 <ais523_> although it still has some features that out-eso even Perl
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01:26:53 <ais523_> like the "in this block, make the same decisions in all control structures as in that block" construct
01:27:07 <ais523_> like, if you have an if statement in one block
01:27:23 <ais523_> the if statements in the other block will run or skip the code that's being if'ed the same way
01:27:38 <ais523_> you can make a golf language if you like, but IMO it's pretty hard to do well at that
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01:27:59 <JWinslow23> I want to create a 2-dimensional language, actually.
01:28:25 <ais523_> 2D isn't that good for golfing because of the extra spaces you need to make the lines line up
01:30:20 <HackEgo> *poof* Note that the previous quote is, in fact, correctly spaced.
01:30:51 <ais523_> the previous "previous quote" is long since deleted; 667 is also correctly spaced but there's no obvious reason why it wouldn't be
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01:36:26 <HackEgo> 667) <fizzie> oerjan: Hey, what's your country code for telephonistic dialling from the outside world? <oerjan> fizzie: +47 <fizzie> oerjan: Ooh, you're, like, right next to Sweden there. <fizzie> I... guess you are geographically, too.
01:36:36 <shachaf> Someone respaced it, apparently.
01:36:52 <shachaf> <HackEgo> 781) <fizzie> oerjan: Hey, what's your country code for telephonistic dialling from the outside world? <oerjan> fizzie: +47 <fizzie> oerjan: Ooh, you're, like, right next to Sweden there. <fizzie> I... guess you are geographically, too.
01:37:07 <shachaf> So it's not actually correctly spaced.
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01:45:42 <ais523_> help I've read back to like quote #400 now
01:45:46 <ais523_> and they get funnier on average over time
01:45:51 <ais523_> and I'm having difficulty breathing as a result
01:46:03 <ais523_> I need to remember to never read the entire list at once, I had this problem last time
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02:01:30 <HackEgo> 242) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
02:02:04 <ais523_> also, when did we take it out of the topic, I feel like it was there pretty much forever
02:02:16 <ais523_> although the "the international hub" topic was probably there longer
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03:58:50 <Sgeo> I learned recently that the guy who made it is the Idris guy
03:59:58 <JWinslow23> Well, can anyone explain just what the slide operation does?
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04:17:05 <JWinslow23> If someone explained it to me, I didn't see it.
04:17:52 <JWinslow23> Does it pop N values from underneath the top value of the stack?
04:19:30 <JWinslow23> Well, can I get a quick explanation about what it does do?
04:19:47 <Bike> from whom? nobodys' here
04:20:47 <JWinslow23> I would like some sort of explanation of the function Space Tab LF (number) in Whitespace.
04:21:37 <JWinslow23> The spec says "Slide N items off the stack, keeping the top value". That seems a bit vague to me.
04:27:38 <fowl> ultraviolet “SmartWater”
04:27:43 <fowl> er.. The idea is that local variables are referred to using [Space][Tab][Space], then on return, you can push the return value onto the top of the stack and use [Space][Tab][LF] to discard the local variables.
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04:29:21 <fowl> thats a quote from the tutorial
04:29:26 <JWinslow23> Uh...I said "that seems a bit vague to me".
04:29:32 <fowl> i'll leave my paypal information so you can send me some money
04:29:42 <JWinslow23> You don't think I read the tutorial? :p
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05:51:34 <Sgeo> (from #idris )
05:51:37 <Sgeo> ( the (Type, Type) (the (Type, Type) (the Type Int, the Type (Int, Int)))
05:55:26 <ais523_> are (Int, (Int, Int)) and (Int, Int, Int) distinct in Idris?
05:55:32 <ais523_> if not, that'd explain that line pretty effectively
05:56:10 <Bike> ( the (Type, Type) (the Type Int, the Type (Int, Int))
05:56:23 <Bike> look at me everybody, i'm a hacker!
05:56:26 <Sgeo> I'm not sure if they're distinct, but (Int, (Int, Int)) prints as (Int, Int, Int)
05:57:04 <Sgeo> > (1, (2, 3)) == (1, 2, 3)
05:57:06 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘(t0, (t1, t2))’
05:57:12 <Sgeo> ( (1, (2, 3)) == (1, 2, 3)
05:59:35 <ais523_> in that case, I don't see anything particularly silly about that line
06:00:40 <Sgeo> I still think this seems a bit silly in a way, even though it makes sense:
06:00:43 <Bike> well it's a bit weird that a tuple of types and a particular tuple type are interchangeable
06:00:52 <Sgeo> ( (the Type (Int, Int), the (Type, Type) (Int, Int))
06:00:52 <idris-bot> ((Int, Int), Int, Int) : (Type, Type, Type)
06:02:17 <Sgeo> ( the (the Type (Int, Int) = the (Type, Type) (Int, Int)) refl
06:02:18 <idris-bot> (input):1:5:When elaborating argument x to function Prelude.Basics.the:
06:02:18 <idris-bot> the Type (Int, Int) = the (Type, Type) (Int, Int)↵…
06:02:34 <Sgeo> ( the (the (Type, Type) (Int, Int) = the (Type, Type) (Int, Int)) refl
06:02:37 <Sgeo> Not interchangable
06:02:55 <Sgeo> Two distinct values of distinct types, written the same way
06:03:09 <Bike> ok, i guess the syntactic ambiguity is all then.
06:04:27 <ais523_> ( the (((Int, Int), Int) = (Int, (Int, Int))) refl
06:04:28 <idris-bot> (input):1:5:When elaborating argument x to function Prelude.Basics.the:
06:04:28 <idris-bot> ((Int, Int), Int) = (Int, Int, Int)↵…
06:04:39 <Bike> well yeah, that's just a cons issue
06:04:42 <ais523_> looks like , is right-associative
06:05:01 <Bike> ( the ((4,4,4) = (4,(4,4))) refl
06:05:06 <shachaf> Does (Int,Int,Int) secretly mean something like (Int,(Int,(Int,Nil)))?
06:05:13 <shachaf> That's how I'd want it to work.
06:05:24 <Sgeo> shachaf: I suspect not
06:05:31 <Sgeo> <trillioneyes> Sgeo: n-tuples are syntactic sugar for right-nested pairs
06:05:45 <ais523_> shachaf: there doesn't seem to be a separate Tuple type, just Type
06:06:12 <Bike> wouldn't "Tuple" be some kind of supertype
06:06:16 <shachaf> I was thinking of something HList-style.
06:06:19 <shachaf> Maybe that's what HVect is.
06:06:20 <Bike> and nobody likes those, eh
06:06:42 <ais523_> shachaf: well you want something that makes a distinction between a list and a list element
06:06:49 <ais523_> in order for the ,Nil to be meaningful
06:07:13 <idris-bot> (input):1:5: error: expected: ",",
06:07:26 <idris-bot> (input):1:5: error: expected: ",",
06:07:39 <Sgeo> ( the (HVect _) [5, "Hello"]
06:07:39 <idris-bot> [5, "Hello"] : HVect [Integer, String]
06:08:01 <idris-bot> (input):0:0:Incomplete term \x => x
06:08:02 <shachaf> Why are tuples something other than HVect?
06:08:27 <ais523_> because , is symmetrical and :: isn't, I guess
06:09:01 <shachaf> Why should , be symmetrical?
06:09:21 <shachaf> Or maybe I don't understand what you mean.
06:10:30 <ais523_> well, I mean it has a type of shape 'a -> 'a -> 'a
06:10:37 <ais523_> rather than 'a -> 'b -> 'b
06:10:49 <ais523_> err, 'a -> 'a list -> 'a list
06:11:28 <shachaf> Well, (a,b) can be sugar for (a::(b::Nil)), or something.
06:12:02 <ais523_> shachaf: what about ((a, b), c)?
06:12:25 <ais523_> many people would say that it's incorrect for that to work differently from (a, (b, c)), as in the type's anything other than reassociated
06:12:31 <shachaf> That can mean ((a::b::Nil)::c::Nil)
06:12:35 <ais523_> ( the (HVect _) [1, [2, 3]]
06:12:36 <idris-bot> When elaborating an application of constructor Data.HVect.:::
06:12:36 <idris-bot> Can't disambiguate name: Effects.Env.::, Data.HVect.::, Prelude.List.::, Data.Vect.Quantifiers.::, Prelude.Stream.::, Prelude.Vect.::
06:12:46 <ais523_> ( the (HVect _) [1, [2, "three"]]
06:12:47 <idris-bot> When elaborating an application of constructor Data.HVect.:::
06:12:47 <idris-bot> Can't disambiguate name: Effects.Env.::, Data.HVect.::, Prelude.List.::, Data.Vect.Quantifiers.::, Prelude.Stream.::, Prelude.Vect.::
06:12:55 <shachaf> Well, I don't think I care about that very much.
06:12:58 <Sgeo> ais523_: lots of things use [] syntax
06:13:02 <ais523_> ( the (HVect _) [1, (the (HVect _) [2, 3])]
06:13:02 <idris-bot> [1, [2, 3]] : HVect [Integer, (HVect [Integer, Integer])]
06:13:10 <ais523_> Sgeo: yeah, just realized that that was the problem
06:13:11 <shachaf> I don't like three-tuples being a special-case type completely unrelated to other tuples.
06:13:17 <idris-bot> [1, 2, 3] : HVect [Integer, Integer, Integer]
06:13:32 <ais523_> ( the (HVect _) [(the (HVect _) [1, 2]), 3]
06:13:32 <idris-bot> [[1, 2], 3] : HVect [(HVect [Integer, Integer]), Integer]
06:13:41 <ais523_> all those terms are different with HVects
06:13:48 <ais523_> and necessarily have to be
06:14:08 <ais523_> sometimes it makes sense to have a "self-flattening" list type
06:14:18 <ais523_> like Mathematica does, and like Perl effectively does
06:14:33 <ais523_> and tuples are a bit like that
06:14:42 <ais523_> but I'm tired and thus incoherent and thus am probably not explaining this well
06:14:44 <shachaf> OK, so we were talking about different things.
06:14:51 <shachaf> That makes sense but seems much more complicated.
06:15:34 <shachaf> In Haskell, one of the advantages of (a,b,c,d) being a flat data type rather than meaning something like (a,(b,(c,(d,())))) is that you only have to dereference one pointer rather than n.
06:16:46 <ais523_> oh right, you're complaining about the associativity rules, that's reasonable
06:17:19 <ais523_> fwiw, in Verity, tuples are implemented associatively in terms of pairs, but that's mostly for ease of implementation
06:17:40 <ais523_> (also, the underlying theory only has pairs, not n-tuples, but all the constructions generalize in an obvious manner)
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06:45:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pyth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40117&oldid=40011 * 24.16.68.13 * (+3340) Added documentation.
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07:55:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40118&oldid=40100 * Rdebath * (-26) /* Performance Matrix */
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08:09:56 <oerjan> <JWinslow23> Can anyone point me to a good golf language on the wiki? <-- there's also burlesque although it's page doesn't actually mention golfing. in fact i think the "less feature bloated" has expired a long time ago.
08:10:41 <oerjan> hm or maybe not. stlang _is_ large.
08:11:32 <oerjan> and also a golfing language, it seems.
08:12:46 <oerjan> i think my apartment's approximation of ac is not quite temperature stable.
08:20:25 <mroman> oerjan: stlang is severely underdocumented
08:20:41 <mroman> but since if lost the interpreter source there's not much I can do about that
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08:22:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burlesque]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40119&oldid=37096 * 92.105.82.69 * (+69)
08:23:43 <oerjan> <ais523_> and they get funnier on average over time <-- wait in which direction
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08:24:40 <mroman> stlang was probably more or less burlesque with Functions, Classes and Pattern Matching
08:25:13 <mroman> and every bulti-in had a canonical-name and short names depending on context
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08:46:27 <Melvar> ( with HVect [1, [2, "three"]]
08:46:28 <idris-bot> [1, [2, "three"]] : HVect [Integer, (HVect [Integer, String])]
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11:46:56 <Koen_> hello happy hesolangers
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11:58:57 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
11:59:59 <mroman> I like how this university shuts down all IT service every thursday
12:00:13 <mroman> Checking you student e-mail account on thursday: Nope
12:00:22 <mroman> Download material on thursday: Nope
12:00:27 <mroman> Check your grades on thursday: Nope
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15:15:56 <mroman> Ironically "Taworvor" is the successor of burlesque but more feature bloated
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15:20:16 <mroman> but I'm not sure if I'll pull that through
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21:01:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Meander/Implementation]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40120 * Rdebath * (+5928) Implementation in C
21:04:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Meander]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40121&oldid=39037 * Rdebath * (+36) Add implementation link
21:07:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Meander/Implementation]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40122&oldid=40120 * Rdebath * (+236) More verbal
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22:08:53 <zzo38> Can you prove coppro's conjecture about Ligature Machine?
22:13:03 <zzo38> Why is this internet going so slow?
22:13:24 <Bicyclidine> probably a gremlin's interfering with the ethernet
22:14:15 <zzo38> Do you like "The Aberration Hater Card Game"?
22:15:29 <zzo38> Someone told me of another card game where roles switch, although per turn rather than per game; in my game, roles rotate per game instead (although for an informal game you can just never rotate roles if you like, just as you can also choose not to draft for an informal game if you like)
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22:31:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ligature Machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40123&oldid=40111 * Zzo38 * (+615) Variations
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22:52:46 <shachaf> Is there a way to get a link to a file in HackEgo just served as text/plain without the surrounding HTML?
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22:54:35 <ais523_> there used to be, however it was via the mechanism that currently gives you HTML
22:55:47 <shachaf> I also see a "raw" download but that's not suitable for viewing in a browser.
22:56:05 <shachaf> Or, rather, my browser is unsuitable for viewing it.
22:56:14 <ais523_> I wonder why browsers don't have an option to override Content-disposition:
22:56:18 <shachaf> Browsers ought to give you an option to -- yes, that.
22:56:23 <ais523_> admittedly, the disposition is sometimes set for security reasons
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22:56:52 <ais523_> but it would be easy enough to interpret a "download" disposition as "show inline, but don't send cookies or interpret JavaScript"
22:57:05 <shachaf> I could see not allowing HTML, I guess. But text/plain?
22:57:29 <ais523_> never claim that text/plain is immune to XSS attacks
22:57:52 <ais523_> it used to be one of the most common XSS vectors (because people didn't expect it to execute JavaScript), back before IE was fixed to be sane
22:58:03 <ais523_> this still happened as recently as IE 9, I think
22:58:42 <ais523_> as a result, many websites will refuse to serve text/plain under any circumstances; the normal workaround is to serve as text/css, which is treated as text/plain by all major browsers (and as text/plain should have been treated, by old IE)
23:04:29 <elliott> view-source:http://download/url
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23:10:36 <ais523_> elliott: wow, last time I saw that trick was back in the days before I understood that CGI was server-side and had only just found out about JavaScript
23:10:40 <ais523_> (i.e. a very very long time ago)
23:11:30 <newsham> usually there's a key like control-u to get to view-source:
23:12:06 <newsham> oops, thats irrelevant in this context.. sorry, didnt see the full discussion
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23:14:04 <newsham> icfp contest starts in a few weeks
23:14:33 <ais523_> ooh, I must try not to miss it this time
23:14:50 <ais523_> I actually got a paper accepted to ICFP once, and have come top 50 in the contest, but never higher than that
23:15:00 <ais523_> the contests vary a bunch in quality, though
23:15:08 <ais523_> some of them, I've been there on time but didn't really feel like participating
23:15:10 <newsham> some have been pretty awesome..
23:15:16 <ais523_> others, I'd love to have participated in, but I missed them
23:15:30 <newsham> endo pretty awesome, umix pretty awesome..
23:15:45 <newsham> less interested in changing orbits of satellites
23:16:34 <newsham> making bots navigate a maze not as interesting to me either
23:20:08 <ais523_> the bots in the maze one was the one I participated in
23:20:14 <ais523_> actually, the maze solving wasn't the main issue
23:20:23 <ais523_> lack of collision given limited data was the issue
23:20:45 <ais523_> just aiming directly for the goal was difficult under the assumptions given
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23:28:55 <newsham> i wonder if you can make money by buying homes where someone recently died, at a "scare" discount, and later flip it
23:29:22 <newsham> too many rational competitors?
23:29:23 <quintopia> there's no such thing as a scare discount
23:29:37 <quintopia> you're better off with a bankruptcy/tax sale
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23:34:16 <Phantom_Hoover> newsham, if some random person died of natural causes why would it affect the price
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23:34:36 <Phantom_Hoover> if they died in some sensational and gruesome way, that'd probably make the price go up
23:35:24 <newsham> "why would it affect the price?" <- ghosts!
23:37:55 <quintopia> if they died because a tree came through the roof
23:38:19 <quintopia> or anaphylactic shock from an overabundance of mold spores
23:38:25 <quintopia> probably not gonna drive up the price
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01:02:56 <boily> http://i.imgur.com/0cqKIeQ.gif
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01:59:51 <zzo38> I believe that both a Commutative Ligature Machine and a Ligature-Counter Machine are capable of recogizing balanced parentheses, although it doesn't seem that the ordinary Ligature Machine can.
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03:28:08 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/2a88kb/why_all_browsers_are_horrible/
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04:04:19 <zzo38> Are there channels about compiler optimizations?
04:10:41 <ais523_> Sgeo: I like the idea of implementing Flash by printing a message saying that it's crashed and dereferencing a NULL pointer
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04:54:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ligature Machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40125&oldid=40124 * Zzo38 * (+1925) Syntax
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05:05:42 <quintopia> i really like the DM untouched by the sorrow of adulthood analogy
05:06:02 <quintopia> i also like the fact that he elects to write "wroughth" instead of "wreak"
05:12:51 <Sgeo> o.O at Meteor.js... is it a thing on top of Node.js or is it an alternative to Node.js or is it something else entirely?
05:13:23 <Sgeo> $ curl https://install.meteor.com | /bin/sh
05:13:43 <Sgeo> People criticize rust for that, why not meteor? (Although Rust's does sudo)
05:14:32 <quintopia> I think I'm going to start calling Firefox Fiona and Chrome Christopher. Much better names.
05:21:52 <zzo38> Are there cards in Magic: the Gathering having such things as: Protection from tokens. Protection from objects with counters. Protection from objects with protection. Protection from colorless. Protection from lands. Protection from tapped permanents. etc
05:22:11 <ais523_> zzo38: you can search for each of those in Gatherer
05:22:51 <zzo38> I had other idea too: A card which makes all permanents having abilities with an untap symbol to gain vigilance.
05:23:54 <ais523_> it's pretty rare for untap-symbol abilities to be played, though, which means there's not much point in playing a card that makes them worse
05:24:01 <shachaf> zzo38: What about Inspired abilities?
05:24:10 <shachaf> Is there a way to refer to those? Since it's not a real keyword.
05:24:17 <ais523_> shachaf: that wouldn't work within the rules, Inspired's an ability word
05:24:21 <ais523_> in general, the rules can't see anything in italics
05:24:30 <zzo38> shachaf: What does Inspired abilities mean?
05:24:33 <shachaf> Right. But is there a way around it?
05:24:42 <zzo38> ais523_: What is the use of ability words then?
05:24:58 <ais523_> zzo38: ability words are basically used to give an easy name to refer to effects of a particular shape
05:25:08 <shachaf> zzo38: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?text=+[Inspired]
05:25:16 <ais523_> e.g. for inspired, it's "Inspired - When CARDNAME untaps, ..."
05:25:37 <shachaf> Oh, it's not italicized on the gatherer page for some reason. #scow
05:26:08 <ais523_> it's still possible to have an effect on all inspired cards by writing, e.g. "Abilities don't trigger as the result of permanents untapping", but that would affect other cards too
05:27:16 <zzo38> ais523_: Well, maybe such thing I mentioned may be useful if it is a draft containing both this card and others with untap symbol, and possibly also if you manage to draft this card and another, having untap symbol but you want vigilance instead at least sometimes. Since, you play or not play such a global effect.
05:28:46 <zzo38> Or maybe you don't draft and you just get assigned random cards and have to pick a subset (not necessarily a proper subset) of them to use, and then add basic lands of your choice. Possibly, everyone has the same cards assigned to them, too.
05:29:05 <ais523_> zzo38: those formats are called Sealed and Duplicate Sealed, respectively
05:29:28 <ais523_> Wizards publishes recommended randomization methods for the formats (normally involving opening boosters as the method of randomizing the cards)
05:29:53 <ais523_> e.g. in one official game I played, they recommended assigning each player six boosters of Tenth Edition
05:32:39 <zzo38> I played one draft in which they had two packs of one set and one pack of another set. Even if sealed, you could do something similar, not using all cards of one set.
05:36:20 <zzo38> Another idea would be "Semi-Duplicate Sealed", where most cards are the same for each player but each player also gets a few cards that are individual to them (although everyone still gets the same rarity distributions).
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05:52:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: Horizon Drake has protection from lands
05:53:38 * ais523_ looks at the Ligature Machine
05:54:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: but that's rare. "Protection from artifacts" is qutie common, and there's at least one card each that mentions "Protection from creatures", "Protection from multicolored", "Protection from monocolored", "Protection from all colors", "Protection from its colors", "Protection from the colors of permanents you control", "Protection from everything"
05:55:48 <ais523_> and, infamously, "Protection from the chosen player"
05:56:11 <b_jonas> it might be obvious, but "Protection from the chosen color" is quite frequent
05:56:36 <b_jonas> there's lots of instants and auras that give it, and the great creature Order of the Stars
05:57:21 <b_jonas> what I'd like to see but doesn't exist is an aura saying "Permanents have protection from enchanted creature/permanent. This effect doesn't remove ~."
05:57:22 <ais523_> if we treat the input string as the only input, the Ligature Machine is clearly capable of running any FSM on that input, i.e. it can recognise all regular languages (half of coppro's conjecture)
05:57:30 <shachaf> I discovered that "damage can't be prevented" gets around protection, since protection works by preventing damage.
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05:57:38 <ais523_> it can alternatively act as a PDA, but can't take input while it's doing that
05:58:14 <ais523_> because you can never read behind the cursor, it is definitely sub-TC; it has one stack as the only storage
06:00:47 <b_jonas> oh, and there's also "Protection from instant spells and from sorcery spells", "protection from each of the exiled [imprinted] card's card types", "protection from instants", "protection from enchantments"
06:03:35 <ais523_> one nice thing about Ligature Machine is that it's trivial to compile to Thue (assuming that you have some characters you can guarantee won't exist in the input)
06:07:02 <b_jonas> compiling to Thue? but Thue is much more powerful than the ligature machine, so that doesn't do you much good
06:07:27 <ais523_> well, it gives you an implementation
06:07:41 <ais523_> which is nice if you want to actually test programs
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06:12:00 <ais523_> now I'm trying to work out if "PDA without input" is a distinct computational class from "finite-state machine"
06:12:32 <ais523_> my feeling is "no", in which case the Ligature Machine is a pure finite-state machine
06:15:17 <b_jonas> ais523_: I'm not sure whether Ligature Machine is just a finite state machine or more powerful. I'll have to think about this
06:15:58 <b_jonas> ais523_: if you didn't have the |=:| rule, then it would be a finite state machine
06:17:18 <ais523_> b_jonas: you can clearly form a stack via pushing the rest of the input further and further away
06:17:28 <ais523_> however, this then prevents you reading the input
06:17:39 <ais523_> it's equivalent to a language with one stack, for which the input starts on the stack
06:17:47 <b_jonas> ais523_: what I wonder is whether you can recognize {a^nb^n}
06:17:51 <ais523_> which gives you FSM power if the stack never grows
06:18:04 <b_jonas> wait, one stack and input starts on stack? are you sure in that?
06:18:15 <ais523_> b_jonas: it's equivalent to that
06:18:20 <ais523_> because you can never read to the left of the cursor
06:18:22 <b_jonas> that rings a bell, let me read up on that
06:18:29 <zzo38> b_jonas: I do not see any way to recognize {a^nb^n} with it
06:18:34 <ais523_> thus the area to the right of the cursor can be treated as a stack
06:18:39 <ais523_> anyway, a^nb^n is obviously impossible
06:18:48 <ais523_> if n is greater than the square of the number of symbols
06:19:01 <ais523_> then you don't have any place to record it once the cursor comes within one square of the first b for the first time
06:20:07 <zzo38> What changes if you have two ligature machines, with a machine that reverses its input in between?
06:20:25 <b_jonas> what's the tie-breaking rule of LM for when multiple rules apply?
06:20:44 <zzo38> b_jonas: It is not possible for multiple rules to apply?
06:21:14 <b_jonas> right, it looks at two adjacent symbols always
06:21:36 <zzo38> The rule table is basically a function from a pair of symbols to a symbol and a mode, so always exactly one rule applies.
06:25:39 <b_jonas> ok, I guess you're right, PDA with the input on the one stack is probably the same power as a finite state machine
06:27:30 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes it does look like that to me too (I think)
06:27:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ligature Machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40126&oldid=40125 * Zzo38 * (+426) Combinations
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06:50:28 <oerjan> hm interesting. i suspect the color codes in HackEgo's announcements are the reason why IE won't recognize today's tunes logs as text.
06:51:31 <oerjan> (and thus refuse to open them in browser)
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06:57:09 <oerjan> <shachaf> I also see a "raw" download but that's not suitable for viewing in a browser. <-- that's what used to work but hgbrowser had some "security update" that disabled it opening in the browser.
06:57:25 <oerjan> i.e. `url used to give that link.
06:57:36 <shachaf> oerjan: I know it used to give that link.
06:58:04 <oerjan> and it's probably all about the text/plain mess ais523_ talked about
06:59:55 <zzo38> Depending on the browser, you may be able to get it to work by prepending "view-source:" to the URL.
07:00:38 <oerjan> i just tried that since elliott mentioned it in the log. IE seems to think i am trying to open an app and asks for security confirmation.
07:00:57 <oerjan> i didn't actually try confirming.
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07:03:16 <oerjan> instead i just used wget -O - ... | less in nvg's linux server.
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08:53:27 <HackEgo> :-( \ 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ moop.txt \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ unpa \ UNPA \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
08:53:57 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/cat
08:55:10 <Melvar> I have a firefox addon that allows me to force something it wants to download to be opened in the browser instead, with the mimetype of my choice, with text/plain being the most frequent application for me.
08:57:34 <HackEgo> :-( \ 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ .hg \ .hg_archival.txt \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ moop.txt \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ unpa \ UNPA \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
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15:19:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Goldfish/Implementation]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40127 * GermanyBoy * (+1732) Created page with "Goldfish implementation in C++ by [[User:GermanyBoy]]. <pre> #include <iostream> #include <fstream> #include <string> #include <cstdlib> using namespace std; const int SIZE ..."
15:21:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Goldfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40128&oldid=40068 * GermanyBoy * (+81) /* See also */ added implementation
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16:12:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SELECT.]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40129&oldid=39240 * Quintopia * (-7) Makes no sense to put the derivation of -1 after the first place it is used (in the derivation of e)
16:20:46 <quintopia> is there a difference between "the set of numbers output by an elementary function evaluated at 2" and "the set of computable numbers"?
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16:32:11 <quintopia> the internet is giving me any examples of "non-elementary computable numbers"
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16:48:32 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/taworvor/ :P
16:51:20 <b_jonas> quintopia: there are very likely much more computable numbers than elementary ones, though it's hard to prove that any particular number is computable but not elementary
16:51:58 <quintopia> b_jonas: i figured someone would have constructed one
16:52:10 <b_jonas> quintopia: constructing one is easy, proving is hard
16:52:15 <quintopia> are elementary numbers all primitive recursive?
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16:52:46 <b_jonas> you could hope that something like SUM_k 2**(-2**(2**(2**(2**k)))) is non-elementary, but I don't think you can prove it
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17:11:22 <mroman> and this time Strings are really just lists
17:11:32 <mroman> not some seperate datatype that required lots of hackery to make shit work
17:12:02 <mroman> I think some burlesque functions working on lists just converted strings into a list of characters
17:12:14 <mroman> and then make a hacky check if the resulting list starts with a character
17:12:18 <mroman> if so, convert back to string
17:12:35 <mroman> (because mapping over a list of characters not necessarily leads to a list of characters)
17:12:58 <mroman> although you're currently out of luck if you don't want a string as a result but your first element happens to be a character :D
17:13:16 <mroman> but nobody noticed this so far on code golf :D
17:20:08 <mroman> there's also two version of concat for this
17:20:12 <mroman> or at least two versions :)
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17:22:36 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
17:24:23 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
17:25:01 <mroman> it reverses the second argument
17:25:11 <mroman> creates a list of infinite copies of that
17:25:18 <mroman> and prefixes it with numbers from 1..infty
17:25:27 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
17:25:42 <mroman> if the timeout would allow it :(
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17:49:22 <mroman_> with a 5.3 average (6.0 is maximum)
17:49:26 <coppro> I just completed the nintendo gallery
17:49:32 <coppro> they're roughly equal achievements :P
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18:05:43 <mroman_> !blsq {"abc" "def"}{"ghj" "klm"}?*
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18:25:07 <mroman_> https://github.com/FMNSSun/Taworvor <- and the repo is online
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19:31:32 <oerjan> quintopia: assuming you mean the ELEMENTARY complexity class, my hunch is for something like a real number encoding the diagonalization of all ELEMENTARY algorithms
19:32:11 <oerjan> hm, or even just the result of them
19:32:26 <oerjan> quintopia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELEMENTARY
19:33:09 <oerjan> if you instead mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_function, then there are no such numbers; f(x) = a is an elementary function for every number a
19:34:30 <quintopia> oerjan: yeah, i meant the set of numbers given by compositions of computable elementary functions evaluated at 2.
19:34:59 <oerjan> well in that case f(x) = a is still elementary, and computable if a is.
19:35:08 <elliott> [[SELECT.]] has lots of "it's" where it should have "its"
19:36:19 <elliott> or alternatively, yes, if you pay me $5 for the three minutes of work at $100/hr
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19:37:32 <quintopia> oerjan: what i am trying to get at is the set of numbers computable by SELECT. so, i guess the problem is that SELECT. can't use constants. i think this concept is captured in the concept of "elementary number"
19:38:15 <elliott> I would also throw in fixing the capitalisation of the headers for free.
19:38:19 <quintopia> elliott: its not bothering me enough to do it myself or pay anyone else ;)
19:39:24 <oerjan> hm the root taking looks like the tricky part, how do you bound the complexity of computing those
19:39:37 <elliott> quintopia: how about for $2.50?
19:39:37 <oerjan> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_number)
19:41:41 <oerjan> except, SELECT. cannot take roots can it?
19:42:14 <elliott> quintopia: $0.3625, as per US federal minimum wage?
19:42:39 <elliott> at some point giving me money has to be less fuss than having me monologue-haggle with you
19:42:42 <oerjan> in that case, perhaps it cannot calculate all elementary numbers
19:42:51 <quintopia> elliott: okay, i'll pay that, minus the cost of the time it takes me to send the money, paid to me at the same wage
19:43:01 <elliott> quintopia: okay. do you have bitcoin?
19:43:36 <elliott> it's currently ~0.00056 BTC
19:44:26 <pikhq> I might have that in Doge.
19:45:23 <quintopia> oerjan: so what would be an example of a number it can't compute? perhaps just a random root of a random pentic equation?
19:45:34 <int-e> elliott: so how much time are you willing to invest failing to negotiate a fee for your services?
19:45:46 <elliott> int-e: it is its own reward
19:46:55 <oerjan> quintopia: i don't have the necessary expertise to find a more elegant answer than "something something halting problem/diagonalization over the complexity class that can compute all those numbers"
19:47:09 <elliott> there, edit completed, pending on payment :)
19:47:43 <elliott> (do I need to edit my user page to disclose a CoI?)
19:48:22 <oerjan> we accept all paid edits. in fact we'd _love_ it if the bancstar people did some.
19:48:36 <oerjan> well, some that improved the article, anyway.
19:49:25 * oerjan is having a hard time imagining a corporation wanting to pay for that.
19:50:05 <oerjan> quintopia: as in, for all i know SELECT. can't compute the roots of x^5 + x + 1 but i cannot prove it.
19:50:27 <oerjan> but there might be someone who can.
19:52:31 <oerjan> hm it's been a while since i checked up on bitcoin
19:52:39 <newsham_> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/900055/is-sql-or-even-tsql-turing-complete ?
19:53:20 <int-e> x^5+x+1 = (x^2+x+1) * (x^3-x^2+1). try again.
19:53:56 <oerjan> i thought that was the standard simplest example
19:54:25 <oerjan> of a primitive polynomial of fifth degree
19:54:49 <oerjan> and also something not solvable in radicals
19:54:50 <int-e> x^5+x^2+1 is irreducible.
19:55:53 <oerjan> @check \x -> x^5 + (x::Int) + 1 == (x^2+x+1) * (x^3-x^2+1)
19:56:52 <int-e> (I'm using pari/gp for this btw. it has a neat factor() function that works for single variable polynomials with integer coefficients. (and also over GF(p), but I'm not sure about other finite fields))
19:57:33 <oerjan> i suppose i've just internalized it wrongly as "the simplest example you can think of that isn't obviously reducible, isn't."
19:58:48 <int-e> if you stare at it long enough, the third root of unity "obviously" satisfies x^5+x+1 = 0.
19:59:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SELECT.]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40130&oldid=40129 * Ehird * (+339) general cleanup. I was meant to be paid for this edit.
20:00:11 <newsham_> ?let forceInt :: Int -> Int; forceInt = id
20:01:14 <int-e> @type (`asTypeOf` oneInt)
20:02:17 <quintopia> int-e: don't you mean the third root of -1?
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20:02:44 <quintopia> i guess i didn't stare long enough
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20:03:09 <int-e> quintopia: for the third root of unity, x^5 = x^2, so we get x^2+x+1.
20:03:10 <quintopia> if l is the third root of unity, then l^5=l^2 right? oh
20:03:31 <oerjan> the third root of unity which isn't 1, naturally
20:04:31 <int-e> a primitive third root of unity, really.
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20:04:43 <quintopia> i'm still not seeing why x^2+x=-1 visually
20:05:27 <oerjan> quintopia: 1, x and x^2 are in an equilateral triangle around zero, that's pretty visual
20:05:27 <int-e> quintopia: leave it as x^2+x+1, then it's a nicely symmetric star. (oh it also satisfies x*(x^2+x+1) = x^2+x+1)
20:06:13 <int-e> and then, of course, you can look at (x^2+x+1)*(x-1) = x^3-1.
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20:06:24 <int-e> but that's algebraic
20:06:45 <int-e> (x*(x^2+x+1) = x^2+x+1 is inbetween: multiplying by x is a rotation)
20:09:05 <boily> quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIA! of course!
20:10:05 <int-e> oh the other kind of "this place"
20:10:14 <quintopia> la terrible is my favorite beer ever
20:10:30 <int-e> (not knowing the "eau benite" brand of beer didn't help)
20:11:05 <boily> I never heard of the Eau Bénite.
20:11:35 <int-e> holy water?! strange name ... though that goes for a lot of beer brands
20:11:49 <quintopia> i'd consider going to quebec just to visit unibroue and try everything
20:12:03 <oerjan> int-e: i thought it was some subtle praise of the channel
20:12:07 <boily> you should also try those from RJ, and then all the microbrasseries :D
20:12:53 <boily> http://www.troududiable.com/spip.php?rubrique5 ← they make my favourites.
20:13:02 <boily> http://www.brasseursrj.com/
20:13:55 <boily> from RJ, my favourite is the Coup de Grisou.
20:14:19 <quintopia> rj says the english version of their site is not available
20:14:35 <quintopia> you should email them "i'll translate your website for a big sample box"
20:16:23 <Taneb> Help I'm trying to learn Erlang
20:17:08 <boily> quintopia: you should come to Montréal during the Mondial de la Bière. it has beers.
20:17:15 <boily> Taneb: that's good!
20:17:51 <Taneb> boily, I'm feeling a feeling I haven't felt since I first learnt Haskell
20:18:06 <quintopia> boily: any independent coding projects?
20:18:53 <boily> Taneb: are you titillated? nonplussed? flummoxed? intrigued? chagrined? dazzled? mystified? recumbent?
20:19:25 <boily> quintopia: I haven't abandoned yet the yucca project. real life got in the way, but it's still being planned.
20:19:38 <Taneb> "Whoa this is a weird way of doing things but I can sort of see how it works"
20:19:59 <quintopia> boily: is real life out of the way yet?
20:20:14 <boily> quite the opposite.
20:22:53 <quintopia> not as good as terrible, but still delicious
20:26:52 <oerjan> who wants water with holes in it anyway
20:27:09 <quintopia> because those holes are filled with delicious CO2
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20:28:39 <oerjan> those are not holes. this is a hole http://what-if.xkcd.com/6/
20:29:11 <boily> hm. levitating beer.
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21:19:36 <int-e> hmm what happened to the brainfuck survey?
21:19:58 <int-e> I mean is there any conclusion? Are there any consequences?
21:51:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40131&oldid=40118 * Rdebath * (+17) /* Current languages to go back to. */
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22:02:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Spacechem Programming Language]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40132 * Jfb * (+324) Created Spacechem page
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22:24:48 <newsham_> go usa! we just tracked down and arrested a domestic terror cell of mink liberators!
22:25:37 <newsham_> i for one sleep easier at night knowing that the minkacolypse is not looming just over the horizon
22:25:52 <newsham_> crap, wrong channel, sorry #esoteric
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22:27:54 <oerjan> argh why does the heat wave keep prolonging with each forecast
22:28:32 <Taneb> oerjan, the heat wave's length doubles every 1.5 days
22:28:44 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
22:30:03 <shachaf> what constitutes a heat wave in trondheim
22:30:31 <Taneb> I wonder if the Purely Functional Data Structures book is useful for Erlang
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22:37:16 <oerjan> shachaf: the forecast has all these scary 28 numbers
22:38:23 <oerjan> but it's been up to 31
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23:56:55 <^v> vifino, u wana go u little shit
23:57:29 * ^v slaps the fuq out of vifino
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00:09:12 * vifino pushes hidden "destruct" button on his remote, gummy bear explodes, so does ^v
00:09:53 <^v> vifino, y u do dis
00:10:02 <ds84182> vifino, I will kill you back on espernet... just you wait
00:10:03 <^v> also, y u in dis channel
00:10:09 <^v> he is here too
00:10:17 <^v> who else is CC/OC and is in here >_>
00:10:19 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
00:10:22 <vifino> ^v: #tired and bored and bored, and bored
00:10:25 <Bike> so what's next on the agenda. ar ewe going to roleplay as horny raccoons? play some runescape, perhaps
00:10:43 * ^v and vifino friends
00:11:03 <Bike> damn elliott this seems a bit abstract. maybe if you were less metaphorical with your orders.
00:12:06 <^v> ds84182, <[.<]$$$,$[~@~)~{~[+@~[{$~]~*{$<*<]{$@@{$@.
00:12:48 <elliott> before you send a line, consider whether you are contributing or adding to the signal-noise ratio of the channel
00:12:55 <elliott> except flip one of those words
00:13:13 <vifino> ^v: ++++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>.[-]++++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+.[-]++++++++++[>+++<-]>++.[-]++++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+++++++.[-]
00:13:35 <^v> vifino, >_> diddnt i tell you how to optimize that
00:14:19 <ds84182> Haha. Xihcute is where it's at
00:14:22 <^v> you can steal my text to bf db table >_>
00:14:31 <vifino> its encoder is atleast a bit more efficient
00:14:44 <ds84182> that reminds me, I have to make a new version of Xihcute to do everything better.
00:17:27 <vifino> ds84182: That reminds me to implement some bettur things in my webserver
00:17:43 <vifino> Its fancy, it werks great
00:17:44 <ds84182> how does my esolang remind you of a webserver
00:18:05 <vifino> ds84182: Everything reminds me of the things i am working on
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02:28:55 * pikhq thinks having reverse DNS working is awesome.
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03:14:47 <zzo38> When scanning tokens from standard input should you ever need more than one lookahead?
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03:30:25 <zzo38> Do you have any documents more than 65535 pages long, or with any pages taller or wider than eighteen feet?
03:31:50 <Bike> Does multivolume count as one document
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03:39:26 <zzo38> I would think usually not
03:40:34 <Bike> no, then. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Marguerite_Young_with_manuscript.jpg only 1200 pages (though the manuscript is proably longer)
04:04:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ligature Machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40133&oldid=40126 * Zzo38 * (+113)
04:23:04 <zzo38> There is a computational class, but can you also define I/O classes?
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05:13:33 <zzo38> I don't quite know really, but, presumably I/O class could compare Ligature Machine and Finite State Transducer and Finite State Machine, for example. As well as such things as programming language that might be Turing-complete but cannot do I/O at all, or only a finite amount of output, or whatever like that
05:14:44 <zzo38> Or can only output a subset of its input, etc
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08:05:01 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>.[-]++++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+.[-]++++++++++[>+++<-]>++.[-]++++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+++++++.[-]
08:05:14 <oerjan> !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>.[-]++++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+.[-]++++++++++[>+++<-]>++.[-]++++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+++++++.[-]
08:05:32 <oerjan> !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>.[-]++++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+.[-]++++++++++[>+++<-]>++.[-]++++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+++++++.[-]
08:05:50 <oerjan> myndzi: psst we already have a !bf command recognizer in the channel hth
08:06:18 * oerjan reflectively tries /whois to check if myndzi is idle. oh wait...
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08:08:49 <oerjan> interesting how english has both reflexive and reflective with different meanings
08:09:33 <oerjan> `interp bf8 ++++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>.[-]++++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+.[-]++++++++++[>+++<-]>++.[-]++++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+++++++.[-]
08:12:37 <oerjan> fizzie: fungot failure found, fix forthtwith
08:12:58 * oerjan could not find a synonym for "please" starting with f
08:13:13 <oerjan> i knew that looked wrong
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08:19:51 <oerjan> zzo38: we've been using bf-complete before to mean "language that can do all i/o brainfuck can"
08:26:55 <oerjan> although i'm not sure it's entirely unambigous whether that includes interactivity
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08:34:42 <fungot> fizzie: although i admit it, you're not limited to for clauses.
08:35:16 <oerjan> well for clauses have nearly all the power of monads, it's not that bad
08:36:25 <fizzie> The power of monad compels you.
08:38:44 <shachaf> u r limited 2 4 preposition
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17:42:03 <zzo38> The following grammar is not LALR(1): s -> LPAREN exp1 RPAREN. s -> LBRACKET exp1 RBRACKET. s -> LPAREN exp2 RBRACKET. s -> LBRACKET exp2 RPAREN. exp1 -> ID. exp2 -> ID.
17:43:05 <zzo38> According to a book I have, it is LR(1) though. What I want to know is how could I fix Lemon to add ability to not combine states for some lookaheads so that with the correct options it will be able to use this input?
17:45:40 <zzo38> (This example is a bit silly since it is particularly easy to work-around, by having one left-delimiters symbol, one right-delimiters symbol, and move the actions to s to have a if block to check whether or not they match.)
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23:26:01 * Sgeo wonders if it was a bad idea to point someone newish to programming looking at Ruby for web purposes towards Sinatra
23:27:51 <Sgeo> get '/foo', :agent => /Songbird (\d\.\d)[\d\/]*?/ do
23:27:59 <Sgeo> Hmm, not really a fan of its arbitrary renaming of user-agent
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23:33:09 <Sgeo> help Ruby is giving me a useless 'where is the hygiene' anxiety attack looking at things like request in get blocks
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23:45:48 <Sgeo> Just saw a snippit on Ruby's main page, feel sick
23:46:11 <Bike> take a deep breath
23:46:18 <Sgeo> http://codepad.org/tnqVIU4y
23:46:40 <Sgeo> say['love']... what is that doing here? Searching for the appropriate substring? Is each word indexed separately? What?
23:47:10 <Bike> do you want me to tell you about experimental 1970s surgery on cats
23:48:35 <Bike> okay, so, most of the time experimental cats were (are, probably, i'm not an animal person) gotten from pounds and stuff, or more generally just as adults, so there was some worry that their physiology might be "damaged" by normal life experience, making them a bit hard to generalize
23:49:04 <Bike> so for this experiment they got some kittens and raised them entirely in a soundproofed chamber. they could still hear each other and talk but they wouldn't be exposed to loud noises or anything
23:49:41 <Bike> the idea being to avoid hearing damage
23:50:16 <Bike> when they grew up they cut holes in their skulls and inserted electrodes into their cochleas to record synaptic responses from the spiral ganglion
23:51:13 <Bike> for one, they got a noise generator, set it to 108 dB (equiv. to standing next to a car horn) and left it on for two hours to see the effects
23:51:18 <Bike> it clumped spontaneous firing rates.
23:52:14 <Sgeo> How do you generalize from that though? Maybe they're missing normal cat visual stimulus?
23:52:56 <Bike> it was hearing research. vision is someone else's department.
23:55:34 <Bike> i'm glad you (alluded to) ask(ing). you see, nerves in the spiral ganglion sometimes fire off spikes in the total absence of stimulation from the hair cells. Each fiber seems to have a different spontaneous firing rate, varying from 0.1 to 100 spike/sec in cats. (different in other animals because lol.) usually the distribution of firing rates is mostly (but not entirely) even across central frequencies of the hair cells, but after the traum
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23:55:57 <Sgeo> traum obviously.
23:56:43 <Sgeo> (aka Bike I think you got cut off)
23:56:55 <Bike> yeah. i don't care though.
23:59:48 <monotone> Sgeo: You can index into Ruby strings by substring or regular expression. And mutate the slice, of course.
00:00:38 <Sgeo> What happens if you mutate the slice by a similar method itself
00:00:48 <Sgeo> "foo"["fo"]["f"] = "g"
00:01:00 <Sgeo> Does it become goo?
00:01:02 <Bike> what's "abababab"["abab"] = "baba" do.
00:01:33 <Bike> but after the trauma the distribution changed
00:01:54 <monotone> Sgeo: Doesn't work because foo["fo"] returns a copy of the string.
00:02:00 <Bike> that's all i wrote, if that's what you mean
00:02:21 <monotone> So when you subsequently slice ["f"] and assign to it you mutate the copy, which is immediately discarded.
00:02:23 <Bike> i'm not sure how closely i am expected to summarize twenty thirty year old pages
00:02:30 <Sgeo> So the thing that imperative languages used to find more comfortable than Haskell isn't actually that more comfortable in Ruby
00:02:30 <Bike> to people who don't really have any reason to care
00:03:09 <Phantom_Hoover> i just assumed it was going somewhere from the general drive
00:03:23 <Bike> no. mostly 108 dB for two hours is more or less torture
00:03:47 <Sgeo> Suddenly I feel more ethical
00:03:55 <Sgeo> Norns aren't conscious as far as we know
00:04:06 <Bike> "neither are cats, so it's cool"
00:04:12 <monotone> Bike: Replaces the first occurrence.
00:04:16 <Bike> anyway ethics hadn't been invented yet, so it's fine
00:05:03 <monotone> It works a lot like Python's slice syntax, in theory. Like, you can do a[1:3] = [4,5,6].
00:05:17 <monotone> String and regex slices return the span of their first match.
00:05:57 <Sgeo> Starting to think one of the big problems with mutation is it gives too much choice. Choice whether to return copy, original thing, choice what elements or subelements of a thing are mutable or not
00:05:59 <Bike> monotone: that is so boring :(
00:06:13 <Sgeo> Whereas with immutability everywhere, the API design is forced on you in that respect
00:09:05 <Sgeo> Probably Ruby's the wrong language to look at if I want 'constrains API design to make it easier and make people more likely to make idiomatic APIs'
00:10:44 <monotone> Ruby does have the convention of "!" methods versus non-"!" methods.
00:11:13 <monotone> So String#gsub! changes the original string and String#gsub returns a copy.
00:15:13 <zzo38> I think now I got Lemon to be able to parse the grammar G6 if a %split_states command is specified.
00:15:25 <zzo38> I read the book more carefully and now I did it.
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00:39:27 <boily> help. I just played a few games of Android Netrunner against the Pouti and I want more!
00:48:08 <boily> Gregor: HACKEGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
00:48:32 <boily> Sgeo: my brother. he was in the chännel a few times. you can get some infos on him in the Infamous PDF.
01:00:23 <Sgeo> "TcpSocket and SslSocket do not name their read and write methods the same thing."
01:00:40 <Sgeo> I'm guessing this sort of thing wasn't magically fixed in Ruby 2.0? This blog post was written in 2013
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01:24:07 <brrr> website is down?
01:29:36 <Gregor> Not responding to SSH either.
01:29:37 <Gregor> I'll send it a hard reboot.
01:32:52 <Gregor> Well, the admin panel's down.
01:33:09 <Gregor> Cloudatcost: Pay zero per month, get what you pay for.
01:35:02 <elliott> Gregor: oh, right, I saw a thing about everyone's cloudatcost vpses going down
01:35:21 <elliott> ...esolangs.org is on cloudatcost?
01:37:34 <Sgeo> Oh hey I have a cloudatcost account
01:37:43 <Sgeo> I should use it. When CloudAtCost is stable again
01:42:05 <Sgeo> Or I could just look for another host
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02:03:21 <brrr> I guess I could always use the cached versions
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02:49:49 <Sgeo> "If you’re using Rails and you want to be secure, you should be protecting against mass assignment. Basically, without declaring attr_accessible or attr_protected, malicious users can set any column value in your database, including foreign keys and secure data."
02:50:04 <Sgeo> Why not do the opposite, attr_assignable or something?
02:50:21 <Sgeo> Is this sort of thinking a major part of Ruby culture? That's scary
02:56:31 <Bike> did you know that during the battle of stalingrad, ten thousand people died per day, including many civilians of starvation
03:04:55 <sebbu> Sgeo, reminds me of some class vs struct C++ debates
03:06:52 <sebbu> (basically, struct default visibility is public, class default visibility is private)
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03:37:38 <zzo38> Well, at least in C it would seem to make more sense to put the public members first, although I don't know how it works in C++.
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03:50:45 <zzo38> I have a Scream Tracker file in my computer where one instrument is labeled "* Hit Alt-V Here (in ST3) *". I don't have ST3, but looking at the waveform it is clearly an ASCII text file encoded as signed data. However, looking in a hex editor it contains unsigned sample data; doing a sign conversion I was able to read it.
03:51:03 <zzo38> But, why is it done like this, the text is encoded as signed data even though the file is unsigned?
03:51:46 <Bike> putting waveforms in ascii sounds weird
03:52:12 <zzo38> No, I mean one of the instrument data is actually a ASCII text file rather than audio data.
03:53:02 <zzo38> But from looking at the waveform, it is clear that it is ASCII data. However, somehow it got mixed up due to sign converison; I don't know why?
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04:28:47 <Sgeo> Is Ruby's begin like Scheme's begin?
04:31:22 <zzo38> How difficult might it be to make something in a C compiler so that you can write: if(__builtin_optimize_fork()) x=4; and then it causes undefined behaviour if x is nonvolatile and its value is not four, at this point in the program?
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05:38:21 <fowl> Sgeo, begin is a try block
05:38:38 <fowl> er its like try{}catch{} in other languages
05:39:01 <Sgeo> So why did I see source code that didn't use it like tht?
05:39:27 <fowl> there is also =begin/=end block comments
05:39:31 <Sgeo> https://github.com/sinatra/sinatra/blob/master/lib/sinatra/base.rb#L24
05:41:05 <fowl> its not needed there
05:42:23 <shachaf> puzzle: what does "begin ... end while ..." mean
05:43:29 <fowl> shachaf, thats a postfix while condition :)
05:44:23 <fowl> puts("empty the trash") while File.exists?("~/.trash")
05:45:37 <fowl> (print "."; sleep 1) while true
05:45:47 <shachaf> hint: "begin foo end while bar" isn't the same as "foo while bar"
05:46:45 <shachaf> why are you even here anyway
05:46:47 <fowl> begin/end, foo, they're just expressions
05:47:44 <fowl> i was sent from the future to give you a note but you aren't getting it now
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08:16:10 <fizzie> I don't know what's up.
08:16:11 <elliott> the site got back up a while ago
08:16:16 <elliott> or do you just mean hackego
08:16:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hug: not found
08:18:05 <fizzie> That was exceedingly slow.
08:18:23 <fizzie> Which is weird, since my SSH connection is working normally.
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09:29:55 <oerjan> fizzie: i think the wiki link may be broken
09:33:32 <fizzie> Oh, you mean the IRC announcement thing?
09:34:15 <fizzie> That seems to be correct.
09:35:02 <oerjan> zzo38: i added your name to the Ligature Machine article
09:35:09 <fizzie> I have possibly restarted it.
09:35:15 <fizzie> We'll see if it helped.
09:36:55 <fizzie> ffmpeg being helpful: "[output stream 0:0 @ 0x3ad1120] 100 buffers queued in output stream 0:0, something may be wrong."
09:49:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ligature Machine]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40139&oldid=40138 * Oerjan * (+0) /* Commutative Ligature Machine */ fursur a misspelling
09:55:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbrain]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40140&oldid=40114 * Oerjan * (+10) I'd like to boldly underscore that alain turning never capitalized his name
10:02:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burlesque]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40141&oldid=40136 * Oerjan * (+31) bold, author, spacing
10:05:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Meander]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40142&oldid=40121 * Oerjan * (+0) /* Implementation */ more wikified
10:08:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Meander/Implementation]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40143&oldid=40122 * Oerjan * (+35) author, backlink
10:09:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Goldfish/Implementation]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40144&oldid=40127 * Oerjan * (+4) backlink
10:12:01 <mroman> are there names for foldl (-) and foldl (/)?
10:12:12 <mroman> foldl (+) is sum and foldl (*) is product
10:12:20 <mroman> but what's foldl (-) / foldl (/) called?
10:13:09 <oerjan> you're basically summing all but the first element and then subtracting from the first
10:13:23 <mroman> subtracting everything from the first
10:13:48 <oerjan> basically foldl (-) x l == x - sum l
10:14:16 <oerjan> so not immensely useful
10:14:29 <oerjan> and foldl (/) is the same for product
10:15:23 <mroman> so nobody has given those a useful name
10:15:24 <oerjan> if it were foldr you would at least be alternating. but also blowing stack.
10:16:24 <oerjan> it's like, sum and product are useful because (+) and (*) are monoid operations
10:16:35 <oerjan> and (-) and (/) are not
10:16:51 <lambdabot> (Monoid m, Foldable t) => t m -> m
10:19:47 <oerjan> this apartment complex is having a meeting to establish house rules. despite my hopeless sleeping cycle i am slightly tempted to go just to _ensure_ the paragraph about not letting your animals annoy the neighbors gets passed exactly as it's in the draft.
10:20:10 <oerjan> (see: that bloody dog)
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11:11:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SELECT.]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40145&oldid=40130 * Oerjan * (+8) /* Sample programs */ I'll just subtract these links from ehird's payment
11:15:08 <elliott> quintopia: give me and oerjan bitcoins
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11:19:01 <elliott> you don't do valuable wiki edits, sorry
11:24:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Spacechem Programming Language]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40146&oldid=40132 * Oerjan * (+16) To boldly stub
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11:25:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Taworvor]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40147&oldid=40135 * Oerjan * (+44) boldly stub the author
11:28:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RCEM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40148&oldid=19979 * Oerjan * (-8) boldly follow policy
11:31:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RCEM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40149&oldid=40148 * Oerjan * (-12) unsanctioned sectioning
11:31:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[X plus plus]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40150&oldid=37906 * Oerjan * (-7) boldly dis-secting
11:32:22 <oerjan> the wiki is taking bloody long to reload the pages
11:32:37 <elliott> that's because it's running on a $0/month vps
11:34:01 <elliott> fizzie: is php fpm having problems?
11:34:04 <elliott> getting gateway timeout errors
11:34:22 <elliott> I hope the cache and everything is still working :)
11:34:24 <oerjan> oh whatever let it just keep those extraneous blank lines
11:35:01 <elliott> oerjan: um... http://esolangs.org/wiki/X%2B%2B http://esolangs.org/wiki/X_plus_plus
11:35:27 <elliott> I see, I need to do a history merge.
11:36:24 <oerjan> i suppose me dos'ing the wiki with my customary self-diff check doesn't help.
11:36:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ehird * deleted "[[X++]]": Deleted to make way for move from "[[X plus plus]]"
11:36:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ehird * moved [[X plus plus]] to [[X++]]: shfoop
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11:37:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ehird * moved [[Talk:X plus plus]] to [[Talk:X++]]: shfoop
11:38:02 <elliott> it's just really, really slow
11:38:15 <oerjan> my diffs loaded, anyway
11:38:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] restore * Ehird * restored "[[X++]]": 3 revisions restored: bop
11:39:17 <elliott> cool messed up history now
11:42:50 <elliott> arguably I could have just moved X++ to X++/crap or something
11:42:54 <elliott> feel free to figure out how to do that move if you want :)
11:44:15 <oerjan> elliott: are you saying _both_ pages existed and neither was a redirect? :(
11:44:41 <oerjan> i am pretty sure my edit did not do all this http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=X%2B%2B&diff=40150&oldid=38198
11:45:01 <elliott> the weird diffs result from mediawiki having a linear view of history.
11:45:10 <elliott> so you just see the diff to the previous chronological edit
11:46:55 <elliott> the history can be split again if you really care
11:47:01 <elliott> but it sort of seems a fitting punishment for an article this bad
11:47:06 <elliott> and you can of course diff the right two revisions manually
11:47:09 <elliott> erm, the article isn't bad
11:47:13 <elliott> but the state of having two of them was.
11:52:08 <oerjan> it's like hard to tell what _happened_ with the histories merged, you know.
11:53:46 <elliott> history splits look like a pain thouuuugh
11:53:57 <elliott> you could just re-delete the revisions from the old article.
11:54:20 <elliott> I've been up for about 24 hours, I can't deal with more than one finnicky mediawiki thing
11:54:31 <oerjan> yes, but i have to find which ones that _are_ before doing it. sheesh.
11:55:26 <oerjan> although can i assume the messages above mean the old article only had three revisions?
11:57:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] revision * Oerjan * Oerjan changed visibility of revisions on page [[X++]]: Leftover revisions from botched history merge
11:57:54 <elliott> the history merged wasn't botched!
11:57:58 <elliott> you just didn't like it :P
11:58:13 <elliott> btw, change visibility is wrong
11:58:22 <elliott> that's used for hiding things like offensive edits and personal information
11:58:34 <elliott> (it's wikipedia's "oversight" role)
11:58:47 <elliott> but you owe me some bitcoins, okay?
11:59:06 <oerjan> you can have the ones quintopia owes me
11:59:08 <elliott> for future reference you go into delete
11:59:29 <elliott> okay you might have to delete the whole page and then restore the ones you want (sigh)
11:59:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] revision * Ehird * Ehird changed visibility of revisions on page [[X++]]: brrrrrrk
12:00:29 <elliott> it's fun to do this when nothing loads
12:01:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ehird * deleted "[[X++]]": tptptptptptpptpttpppppppppppp
12:02:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] restore * Ehird * restored "[[X++]]": 18 revisions restored: glorp top blop
12:04:41 <elliott> this is going to be a great edit I'm going to make sometime within the next 18 hours
12:05:28 <oerjan> oh well now it's not loading at all
12:05:54 <oerjan> i was sort of going to do a little more cleanup afterward
12:08:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[X++]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40155&oldid=40151 * Ehird * (-22) bubbles idly. Let's eat the silk road
12:11:05 <oerjan> fun thing, my own edit to X++ now longer shows in recent changes
12:15:19 <elliott> did I delete it by accident?
12:15:35 <oerjan> no, it just isn't listed
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15:28:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Twocode/Doublecode]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40156 * GermanyBoy * (+10953) Created page with "'''Doublecode''' is a twocode interpreter by [[User:GermanyBoy]] in Sve. == Usage == Interpreter reads lines from the standard input until a line with text "EOF" is encounte..."
15:29:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Twocode/Doublecode]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40157&oldid=40156 * GermanyBoy * (+4) link
15:29:59 <mroman> Damn Strings are still messy :(
15:30:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Twocode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40158&oldid=40071 * GermanyBoy * (-8) /* (summary/infobox) */ doublecode
15:30:25 <mroman> The idea was to have Strings just be lists of integers
15:30:50 <mroman> but then I don't know whether to print {65 66} or AB
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16:09:11 <mroman> @ask oerjan There's a policy?
16:10:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burlesque]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40159&oldid=40141 * 92.105.82.69 * (-1) freezed -> frozen
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16:12:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Taworvor]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40160&oldid=40147 * Feuermonster * (+197)
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16:52:13 <ion> mroman: Erlang has that exact problem.
17:11:36 <Sgeo> CloudAtCost is losing the locks of their fiber channel locking technology, according to them.
17:11:50 <Sgeo> Sounds Dilbertesque, like misplacing the token of a token ring
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17:12:19 <Sgeo> "CloudAtCost has been experiencing extended storage outages due to the underlying Fiber channel Locking technology. Since our environment has grown so large we are constantly getting lost locks which is a manual process for us to track down and fix where the process of fixing one virtual server can take up to 15-20 minutes."
17:12:31 <mroman> ion: I flag Lists as String now
17:13:11 <mroman> however, you can add a list to a list flagged as a string
17:13:23 <mroman> it's not something anybody should do, but it can be done
17:17:09 <zzo38> Apparently the following COBOL program generates 570 error messages: PROGRAM-ID. ERRMSG. Is this some kind of test function in the compiler?
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18:21:12 <Sgeo> zzo38: there isn't even an identification division?
18:21:36 <Sgeo> What happens if you change it from ERRMSG to something else?
18:23:40 <tswett> Sgeo: lemme send you something I wrote.
18:24:23 <tswett> Sgeo: http://pastebin.ca/2820574
18:24:34 <tswett> This is a joke one, of course.
18:25:54 <Sgeo> Some kind of animal that's split in parts?
18:26:16 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't know; I only read elsewhere that that is the case. I don't know what happen in other cases, but apparently that one line is the entire program.
18:26:28 <tswett> Sgeo: have you read the entire thing?
18:27:21 <Sgeo> Yes, but can't really visualize it. Insertion behavior sounds like normal eating, discharge behavior sounds like pooping
18:27:37 <Bike> it's three animals
18:28:08 <Bike> two humans and a blowup doll
18:28:10 <Bike> well, whatever
18:28:20 <Sgeo> I conceptualized -C as some sort of detatchable rear end
18:29:13 <Sgeo> I don't think humans have those, but pretty sure I'm just misvisualizing the whole thing
18:29:41 <tswett> Each of the three objects is a separate human.
18:30:30 <ion> tswett: ‘by an opaque "skin"’ – i’d suggest ‘by an opaque surface’
18:30:39 <Bike> oh, two humans and a kid
18:30:42 <Bike> well, gross, either way
18:30:45 <Sgeo> Oh! -A and -B are babies, -C is breastfeeding -A?
18:30:56 <tswett> -C is the baby and -A is breastfeeding -C.
18:30:58 <ion> Babies are 170 centimeters in length?
18:31:00 <Bike> oh. kid. better
18:31:13 <Bike> ion: c is 50 cm it says
18:31:35 <Sgeo> I think the word its confused me
18:32:22 <tswett> I'm going to continue writing.
18:33:48 <ion> Very nice so far.
18:46:04 <coppro> SCP-1960-J is pretty excellent
18:47:25 <tswett> I've seen the phrase "XK-class end-of-the-world scenario" a few times.
18:47:37 <tswett> Are there non-XK-class end-of-the-world scenarios or XK-class non-end-of-the-world scenarios?
18:48:14 <Bike> yeah. there's CK and stuff.
18:48:32 <Bike> and "SK-class dominance shift" i think it is, where another species becomes dominant over humans
18:49:52 <Bike> ah, here's a sort of list on 1985
18:49:55 <Bike> «The list of distinct scenarios (without duplicates, and following the Jackson K-Class Classification System) includes ███ XK-class Type Alpha (scorched earth) end of the world scenarios, ███ XK-class Type Omega (religious) end of the world scenarios, ███ AK-class "madness" end of the world scenarios, ██ EK-class "consciousness-loss" end of the world scenarios, ███ NK-class "grey goo" end of the world scenarios,
18:50:04 <Bike> «The list of distinct scenarios (without duplicates, and following the Jackson K-Class Classification System) includes ███ XK-class Type Alpha (scorched earth) end of the world scenarios, ███ XK-class Type Omega (religious) end of the world scenarios, ███ AK-class "madness" end of the world scenarios, ██ EK-class "consciousness-loss" end of the world scenarios, ███ NK-class "grey goo" end of the world ...
18:50:10 <Bike> ... scenarios, ███ CK-class restructuring scenarios, ███ RK-class "out-competition" restructuring scenarios, ███ SK-class dominance shift scenarios, ███ IK-class collapse of global civilization scenarios, [DATA EXPUNGED]»
18:50:36 <coppro> you could have jus tlinked it?
18:50:52 <Bike> it's in the middle of the page.
18:51:13 <Bike> i also remember zk reality failure
18:53:23 <zzo38> Shouldn't it be better to put in the alphabetical orders?
18:54:16 <Sgeo> Why do I buy breath strips?
18:54:26 <Sgeo> They're so addictive
18:54:43 <Sgeo> Pretty sure I'm going to burn my tongue and stomach off
18:54:55 <tswett> Better than cigarettes.
18:56:15 <Sgeo> And getting 1 hour of sleep each night is better than dying in a car crash.
19:04:27 <Sgeo> I just ate 24 breath strips
19:08:01 <tswett> http://pastebin.ca/2820590 – okay, this is as long as it's going to get.
19:08:31 <tswett> I might actually want to remove the part about food.
19:08:55 <tswett> I definitely want that last sentence to stay at the end.
19:16:27 <zzo38> Is there a program that a commutative ligature-counter machine is capable of but that either one individually cannot?
19:17:44 <tswett> I searched Google for 'ligature counter machine'. The top result is an article titled "Accidental Ligature Strangulation by an Ironing Machine".
19:17:56 <zzo38> No it is only in the esolang wiki
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20:07:07 <lambdabot> mroman asked 3h 57m 56s ago: There's a policy?
20:07:22 <oerjan> @tell mroman http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Policy
20:07:22 <zzo38> Do you like a tsume shogi game?
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20:25:37 <mroman> I guess I'll be removing that comma then .
20:39:24 <oerjan> mroman: also i don't know if you got the part of the discussion where i mentioned my last edit to X++ didn't show up in recent changes after that merging mess.
20:40:58 <oerjan> (it's still in the page history though)
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20:44:09 <oerjan> elliott: all these new language/interpreter pages make it almost look like we should enable main space subpages.
20:44:29 <oerjan> hm _now_ elliott is idle.
20:48:00 <oerjan> taworvor, the language with only ugly types
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21:20:01 <b_jonas> you think it will be down to penalty shots?
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21:49:41 <Sgeo> "There’s public, private, and protected to enforce access, instead of Python’s _voluntary_ underscore __convention__."
21:49:44 <Sgeo> haha "enforce"
21:49:47 <Sgeo> You're so funny Ruby
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21:51:03 <b_jonas> yes, ruby deliberately has multiple ways to break all kinds of encapsulation and scope rules
21:51:38 <Sgeo> You have to be deliberate about it in Ruby... but same with Python, kind of hard not to notice the convention
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22:10:30 <coppro> Do there exist any languages which require turing-completeness to accept? can we even formalize this notion?
22:10:57 <coppro> not counting the obvious encodings of TMs
22:12:08 <oerjan> nearly all proofs that languages require turing-completeness to accept go via encoding something eventually leading back to TMs.
22:13:43 <oerjan> (by "nearly all" i mean "there's probably some exception but i cannot recall it")
22:14:19 <quintopia> for instance, the C pre-processor is turing-complete, so the language of valid (C source/compiled C source) pairs should be such a language, yes
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22:24:53 <Gregor> The C preprocessor isn't TC unless iterated.
22:26:15 <Gregor> coppro: Academic languages are implementing type systems that require a SAT-solver. A "correct" implementation requires TC to accept, but real implementations just give up.
22:32:08 <oerjan> even ghc seems to be getting that
22:44:19 <Taneb> coppro, isn't that just languages that can be recognized by an unrestricted grammar but not by a context-sensitive grammar?
22:45:23 <Taneb> (bear in mind that I don't quite know what I'm talking about)
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22:53:39 <oerjan> that seems a bit imprecise. there are unrestricted grammars giving languages much weaker than TC.
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22:54:27 <oerjan> basically, the whole complexity hierarchy above SPACE(O(n)) lies outside context-sensitive.
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22:58:25 <oerjan> e.g. primitive recursive functions give an intermediate class.
22:59:58 <oerjan> and we recently discussed how system F gives second-level logic provable termination, which is between _that_ and TC again.
23:01:01 <oerjan> chomsky's grammar categorization is very coarse indeed by modern standards.
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23:49:07 <Sgeo> I think a problem with Ruby compared to Python may not be "There's more than one way to do it" as "There's more than one way to do it, very similar but with slight but significant differences that are hard to remember"
23:49:18 * Sgeo wonders if Ruby 2.0 went any way towards fixing that
23:53:35 <FreeFull> Ruby lets you be extremely ad-hoc
23:53:40 <FreeFull> And there is no type system to protect you
23:53:57 <FreeFull> It's a recipe for lots of subtle, horrid bugs
23:57:28 <Sgeo> I'm trying to like it right now. Not really sure why
23:57:36 <coppro> Sgeo: that's perl for you
00:23:02 <^v> brainfuck masterrace
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00:33:28 <Sgeo> Is Ruby generally considered to be as good at runtime metaprogramming as Lisp is at statictime metaprogramming? (Yes I know I made statictime up, but compiletime is a silly word)
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01:44:35 <Guest66663> ^v: don't make jokes like that, thanks
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01:45:09 <^v> elliott, wat
01:45:39 <Bike> 'master race', probably. ethnic cleansing and all that
01:45:46 <elliott> 00:23:02: <^v> brainfuck masterrace
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04:35:44 <Sgeo> Hmm, I'm not in love with content_type in this example: https://github.com/sinatra/sinatra/blob/master/examples/stream.ru
04:36:21 <Sgeo> That :txt obviouly does not contain text/plain, implying that content_type itself must be magically mapping :txt to text/plain
04:41:00 <Sgeo> Ah. Rack apparently has a MIME registry, and using symbols looks it up as an extension. Still a bit odd
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05:00:32 <Sgeo> This chart is garbage
05:00:36 <Sgeo> "Framework: ?"
05:01:49 <Sgeo> Dynamic typing is listed as a definite win.
05:02:10 <Sgeo> Static typing is also listed as a definite win.
05:02:35 <Sgeo> Maybe that's not what these colors actually mean, hmm
05:04:05 <zzo38> Or perhaps if you have both kinds then it is useful?
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05:10:39 <Sgeo> > 11111111111111111111111111111 - (length [])
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05:37:21 <FreeFull> > 11111111111111111111111111111 - (genericLength [])
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05:59:45 <zzo38> Do you know anyone who is Traditional Chinese? I hope I can ask a question to them, because someone else who is not Chinese told me something but told me to forward it to someone who is actually Traditional Chinese.
06:00:11 <Bike> wht the hell does that mean
06:00:24 <Bike> do you mean someone who can read and write traditional chinese?
06:02:25 <Bike> it's not like, an ethnicity or something, just so you know
06:02:53 <zzo38> I know that traditional Chinese is the writing
06:05:35 <shachaf> zzo38: if cards and rules for Magic: The Gathering or a similar game were written in a programming language instead of in english, how would you design that programming language
06:07:43 <zzo38> shachaf: In most cases I don't like natural language programming, but in this case I would use a natural language programming which closely resembles the text on Magic: The Gathering cards as closely as possible, with [] for comments that print without the brackets, <> for program code that doesn't print, {} for symbols, and perhaps [- ... -] and [+ ... +] and so on for unnatural computer codes which do not print.
06:08:28 <zzo38> The English text would then convert into the kind of codes that go inside of [+ ... +] and I haven't quite thought of that yet, but it would have to involve ability, trigger, event, etc.
06:08:48 <elliott> Bike: he means someone chinese with conservative views.
06:08:49 <zzo38> And the ability to have words that can change. Maybe some kind of LISP-like stuff?
06:09:12 <zzo38> elliott: No, I mean the kind of writing by "traditional".
06:09:40 <shachaf> zzo38: well, i'm mostly wondering what the unnatural computer codes would be like
06:09:54 <shachaf> since most anything can modify most anything else
06:10:32 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, I was trying to think of that too. And yes I thought of a kind of LISP-like
06:11:15 <zzo38> Which would be typed rather than typeless, though, to tell the type of what is used in each case, such as a keyword ability, what kind of parameter it takes, and then the code to override something, etc
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06:13:57 <zzo38> O, and when typing in the printable words, you might have to do such thing as "Destroy all non-white Human=s." so you need the equal sign for plural of creature types; when print out it will calculate the correct plural form and when converting to computer form it ignores that part so you know it means the "Human" subtype, because it is capitalized.
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06:15:25 <zzo38> (However, you would also be allowed to type "[Destroy all non-white Humans] [+ ... +]." and put the computer code in place of the "...")
06:16:11 <shachaf> i'm less concerned with how it would be printed and more with how the language itself would work
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06:18:05 <zzo38> Unfortunately I don't know, but I do have a few ideas. In cases where it query the text and abilities and so on of other objects, it could be something like the SQL queries in order to find something, but not quite SQL since the data is organized differently. Also it is a LISP-like, therefore you can read the code as lists of lists just as well, but having types rather than typeless.
06:19:13 <zzo38> And then it can override meanings as well as override text, for example to override the meaning of the Flying ability rather than the text, to have such values with different types, and literals with types, so you can tell if it is a color, keyword ability, number, etc.
06:19:22 <zzo38> Does this make any sense to you now?
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06:24:20 <zzo38> Do you have other ideas too, perhaps?
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06:31:09 <zzo38> You may then need the list of abilities, then it specifies each one that it is activated or whatever, and then that one takes as parameter the cost and action. But then there would need to be the things to indicate mana abilities, abilities which are played by others than the card's controller, etc.
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14:03:53 <oerjan> girl genius, now with a rail gun
14:04:35 <oerjan> no, it's not the usual kind.
14:14:40 <Melvar> Looks rather like not a rail gun in the usual sense.
14:15:56 <oerjan> you've got to admit it fits the name, though.
14:16:05 <Melvar> More like an impossible variety of gauss gun.
14:16:20 <Melvar> Yes, it fits, just not in the usual sense.
14:20:37 <quintopia> is it a machine that makes actual rails? very quickly? "have instant I-beam!"
14:21:05 <oerjan> assuming he didn't cheat
14:22:50 <Melvar> It looked to me like it accelerated the existing rail, but it’s hard to tell; certainly Agatha could build something that does create the rail.
14:23:17 <oerjan> well you'd know if you'd followed the story
14:24:49 <oerjan> technically she only improved the railway monk's invention
14:29:06 <Melvar> … I failed to connect that comment to this.
14:42:06 <quintopia> oerjan: well i did look at it, but I don't follow the comic so I had to ask to be sure I understood what I was seeing.
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14:52:02 <quintopia> lucky him. i'm definitely actually late.
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20:56:47 <zzo38> How difficult would it be to make a device which tunes and decrypts forty digital channels at once and converts them to forty analog channels on one cable?
20:57:38 <Bicyclidine> depends on the decryption you're doing, i would thnk
20:58:17 <oerjan> sounds like a hardware capacity question, count me out
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21:06:25 <oerjan> fizzie: Gregor: they are killing our bots!
21:07:04 <oerjan> those idelities are not reassuring
21:07:11 <zzo38> The decryption is whatever it is according to the service provider.
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21:11:17 <zzo38> What I wanted to do is that it can be used with all simple analog devices, without requiring the use of the service provider's OSD and user interface, even though the signal is digital.
21:11:25 <MDude> That depends on what the other requirements are.
21:12:25 <MDude> I mean could you just take 40 devices that each convert one channel and then hook them all up to whatever analog switch/muliplexer/whatever would merge them?
21:13:08 <fizzie> oerjan: The lack of answer to SSH is not reassuring either.
21:14:25 <fizzie> "We apologize for the delay in getting back to everyone on their support tickets in a timely manor but we expect everything to be back and better than ever early this week."
21:14:32 <fizzie> Oh well, at least the manor is timely.
21:14:59 <fizzie> And we will always have fungot.
21:14:59 <oerjan> to the manor born, and at the right time
21:14:59 <fungot> fizzie: ( not once, probably :)). i can't remember if sicp does, maybe the new one did not have the memory for spelling. so, instructions would be
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21:16:27 <zzo38> MDude: I know it would work, but that would probably be too expensive and inefficient.
21:16:30 <oerjan> oh hm that means there's point checking the wiki either
21:17:05 <oerjan> (my brain went, if hackego is down i should check the wiki manually to see if something's happening)
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21:17:18 <MDude> I guess start with that as a theoretic design and see what could be simplified from there?
21:17:32 <MDude> Like what parts would be redundant and all that.
21:18:43 <MDude> Mostly I'm guessing you'd want to look at the capacity for each part, what needs to synchonise with what, and how much latencey it causes.
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21:35:59 <zzo38> I have managed to use ImageMagick to cause each sequence of eight bytes in a file to be duplicated.
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21:38:36 <zzo38> convert -size 8x256 -depth 8 gray:input.chr +clone +append gray:output.chr It can be used to convert PC font data into the Famicom format, even though this is completely different than what any of the options I have just specified are meaning!
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22:28:12 <boily> quintopia: quinthellopia!
22:30:28 <quintopia> boily: did you hear about zzo38's abuse of imagemagick for font conversion for nintendos?
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22:36:04 <zzo38> Of course you can do other similar stuff with ImageMagick as well, such as to reverse the order of bits in each byte, or two swap pairs of consecutive bytes.
22:36:18 <zzo38> I have even once used it to process audio data.
22:40:23 <zzo38> However, it doesn't have any function to read/write audio formats, so you can only deal with raw headerless audio.
22:42:33 <boily> quintopia: let me suffer the shock of such a revelation for a while, and then I'll get back to you.
22:43:01 <boily> okay. enough suffering.
22:43:26 <boily> zzo38: you are a monster! you are transgressing the laws of nature! also, which nintendos? like, only the original NES?
22:43:42 <oerjan> ah finally sane temperatures again
22:44:07 <zzo38> boily: Yes only the original NES and Famicom
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22:44:46 <metasepia> ENVA 142220Z 24005KT CAVOK 19/16 Q1005 RMK WIND 670FT VRB05KT
22:44:47 <zzo38> And these are not transgressing any laws of nature or otherwise, and I am not a monster, I only play one not on TV.
22:44:49 <metasepia> CYUL 142200Z 27007KT 30SM FEW100 SCT160 BKN240 23/12 A2983 RMK AC2AC1CI4 SLP101 DENSITY ALT 1100FT
22:44:53 <metasepia> CYVR 142200Z 20011G17KT 20SM FEW170 25/18 A3005 RMK AC1 HZ SLP177 DENSITY ALT 1000FT
22:45:45 <oerjan> boily: you aberration hater you
22:46:11 <oerjan> quintopia: step 1: have it be here
22:46:24 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, that is the good first step.
22:46:59 <zzo38> It depends what program you want to run on it!
22:47:04 <oerjan> step 3: `run rm -rf . # It's traditional
22:47:09 * boily is afraid he has to resort to punitive mapoling in the generic direction of Gregor
22:48:19 <boily> oerjan: of the aberrations I only hate the chromatic one.
22:48:29 <quintopia> boily: please remember zzo38's joke above so it can go in the quote list when hackego returns
22:49:04 <oerjan> zzo38: is kjigube (sp?) chromatic
22:49:24 <zzo38> But that isn't what "chromatic aberration" means anyways, clearly.
22:49:27 <oerjan> good, you're safe from boily then
22:50:33 <boily> I can't see you from here, therefore you are transparent, therefore you are a lens :D
22:50:40 <oerjan> are you a traversal then
22:50:59 <boily> quintopia: I'll try to remember it, after I remember to check for already there updates to the wisdom.
22:51:28 <quintopia> i would push updates to the wisdom if i felt confident enough to edit it
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22:52:30 * boily is wisdomblocked by a nefarious five-oh-three!
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22:52:58 <boily> quintopia: no problem. I always accept incoming modifications! (I may be a little bit anal afterwards concerning formatting, tho)
22:52:59 <oerjan> boily: the whole site containing hackego, the repository, and the esolang wiki is down.
22:53:35 <zzo38> Did you see the quiz file I recently made (and not finished yet) on Internet Quiz Engine? Can you answer the questions or to add more questions or choices for existing questions (no more than 26 each, please)?
22:53:36 <boily> nooooooooooooooon! enfer et damnation! maudit sois-tu, odieux Gregor!
22:54:00 <boily> zzo38: could you provide a link to, so I may try?
22:54:01 <oerjan> boily: it's not his fault, except possibly for being a cheapskate while choosing vps
22:54:11 <boily> oh, right. that vps thing.
22:55:16 <zzo38> boily: OK gopher://zzo38computer.org/1quiz.run*quiz01. is the link (including the period).
22:55:41 <elliott> I feel like the wiki could use being on a higher-priority server...
22:56:09 <quintopia> okay you buy it and i'll help migrate
22:56:32 <oerjan> poor elliott, there is no escape
22:58:04 <boily> hm. missing overbite on this machine. let's go install it...
22:59:17 <zzo38> If you are on Windows you can also try using Visgopher, or on any system it isn't so difficult to write a gopher client.
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23:00:35 <boily> I use the penguin on all my machines.
23:01:43 <zzo38> Which ones did you miss?
23:02:23 <zzo38> (Select "download the source codes of this quiz" if you want to see which ones you missed.)
23:04:12 <boily> I missed the first, the second, the third, the fifth, the seventh, the tenth, and the eleventh.
23:04:35 <boily> I don't know where I learned the answer to the fourth one, but I knew it.
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23:04:59 <boily> (also knew the sixth, because long live geopolitics!)
23:06:07 <zzo38> What did you previously think the answers are?
23:06:24 <zzo38> Can you perhaps suggestion additional question/choices?
23:06:58 <boily> quintopia: bontopia nuit!
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23:07:28 <boily> zzo38: yes. maybe. perhaps.
23:11:13 <zzo38> Do you like these kind of questions?
23:11:32 <boily> yup! It remotivates me to learn even more obscure stuff!
23:11:54 <boily> (if one aspires to become a writer, or a sadist GM, one has to learn things!)
23:12:13 <zzo38> O, OK, yes that is a good idea to learn such thing too
23:13:43 <zzo38> What were your guesses for the first, second, third, fifth, seventh, tenth, and eleventh questions? Do you know much about Z-machine?
23:14:11 <boily> random, with some bias towards the last choices per question. not at all.
23:14:34 <boily> I fear I haven't spent enough time to delve into the low-level machines and other stuff enough.
23:14:49 <boily> (by the way, can you make a random regular expression?)
23:15:16 <zzo38> Out of what? What are you trying to make?
23:16:46 <boily> out of a multiple-choice regular expression, it returns one of the possible matches at random.
23:17:22 <zzo38> O, probably it is possible to make a program to do such things
23:21:05 <oerjan> there's a maximal entropy probability distribution for a finite automaton, may be relevant?
23:23:06 <FireFly> Couldn't you enumerate all the strings matched by the regular expression, even?
23:25:14 <oerjan> although i think that applies to infinite strings
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00:58:05 <Sgeo> Is it at all likely that any given Ruby DSL will behave differently from others in a variety of subtle ways even if they're all used similarly?
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01:03:17 <Sgeo> "i would advise that you don't try to write ruby like you would haskell"
01:03:20 <Sgeo> well, I'm sad now
01:08:03 <Sgeo> Now they're arguing about whether Ruby has functions
01:08:43 <Bike> who's "they"? the gods of pegāna?
01:09:34 <shachaf> the real ruby channel is #ruby-lang anyway
01:09:50 <shachaf> but why are you quoting #ruby in here? what did we do to you?
01:11:00 <Sgeo> Both #ruby and #ruby-lang are apparently popular. The former more so, but the latter has a lot of people too
01:11:32 <Sgeo> Just another example of Ruby philosophy?
01:11:58 <Bike> have you considered reading dennett? hegel? malebranche
01:12:51 <Sgeo> I do want to read Dennett at some poiint
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02:41:29 <Sgeo> http://codepad.org/YDyb2w13
02:41:43 <Sgeo> This code working as I expected seems to be calming me down, oddly enough
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03:03:40 <SchrodingersCat> can i get advice on the "language" i made to store lcd patters for my arduino uno's lcd4884 (84x48) shield on a sdcard attached to my arduino micro (te two arduinos are connected by serial)?
03:04:00 <SchrodingersCat> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/lcd4884_hello_world.txt
03:04:05 <SchrodingersCat> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/lcd4884_command_list.txt
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03:23:30 <zzo38> Have anyone else of you to try my quiz yet?
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04:55:46 * Sgeo blinks at Ruby having a StopIteration
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05:27:20 <zzo38> myname: Yes, did you see it yet?
05:27:54 <zzo38> gopher://zzo38computer.org/1quiz.run*quiz01.
05:28:02 <zzo38> Note that the final period is also a part of the selector string.
05:28:31 <zzo38> Also note that the 1 after the third slash is not a part of the selector string.
05:28:35 <myname> first problem is, how to open a gopher link
05:29:04 <myname> firefox dropped gopher support a while ago
05:30:01 <zzo38> You can try Visgopher if you are using Windows; you could also just try writing your own gopher client, or following it manually, neither of which is particularly difficult.
05:30:29 <zzo38> Or install an extension in Firefox for gopher (which is better than the one they dropped a while ago anyways)
05:36:38 <zzo38> (I have not tested Visgopher on Wine, so I don't know if it works or not.)
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06:30:38 <Sgeo> Rack::Cascade makes me think of Snapesque <> except there's no way to return a real 404
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12:33:22 <SchrodingersCat> This is the "language" I made for communicting lcd information between arduinos. Whoever can make sense of this gets extra points. (Hint: The second file is the code for "Hello, World!")
12:33:26 <SchrodingersCat> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/lcd4884_command_list_new.txt https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/lcd4884_hello_world_new.txt
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13:13:37 <TieSoul_> hey guys I made a language and I want some feedback on it :P
13:13:39 <TieSoul_> https://github.com/TieSoul/Befunk
13:14:00 <TieSoul_> spoilers: It's very similar to Befunge
13:17:22 <ais523_> TieSoul_: it's almost an encoding of Befunge-98 into images?
13:17:30 <ais523_> with a few changes to allow for the fact that it's now non-textual?
13:18:03 <ais523_> in that case, my opinion is that it's basically an input encoding
13:18:11 <ais523_> have you tried converting Mycology to an image and running that on it?
13:18:25 <ais523_> that's the usual test for Funge-alikes
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13:18:33 <TieSoul_> It's almost impossible to convert Befunge to Befunk
13:18:47 <oerjan> i was just about to say it's probably best that fungot isn't here to hear about this travesty
13:18:47 <fungot> oerjan: i just added a few items already was quite obvious that he doesn't have the best of both worlds.
13:19:09 <oerjan> (as in, fungot entered just as i'd finished the line)
13:19:09 <fungot> oerjan: being reminds me of the running man. reinstalling all your stuff is annoying
13:20:19 <olsner> fungot: can you convert into befunk?
13:20:19 <fungot> olsner: ( he was actually worried it would " not last". 1)
13:20:26 <fizzie> Sadly, you can't make a working fungot without fingerprints.
13:20:26 <fungot> fizzie: ( define y ' () evaluates to a non-empty list which it is meaningful to modify the fingerprint and add a clause for abstractions, applications, etc
13:21:03 <olsner> hmm, how common is it for fungot to mention a word from its trigger?
13:21:58 <ais523_> olsner: it only does it at random
13:22:04 <ais523_> there's no specific trigger lookup
13:22:10 <fizzie> I'm sure you could computed the expected value for it, however.
13:22:24 <olsner> I know, I was more wondering how often it happens accidentally
13:22:47 <fizzie> Having "a" in both is probably reasonably common.
13:22:48 <ais523_> shouldn't be too hard to grep thel ogs for it
13:23:06 <ais523_> hmm, is "the" less common on IRC than in English generally? it wouldn't surprise me if it were
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13:24:01 <b_jonas> ais523_: do you count only English irc, or also other languages?
13:24:03 <fizzie> I think I did some counting once.
13:24:11 <fizzie> Anyhoo, modulo some difficulties (figuring out which part is code and which part is data read via g/p), I don't see why it would be impossible to convert (a subset of) Funge-98 programs to Befunk.
13:24:21 <b_jonas> do you count all-textspeak-and-emoticons irc?
13:24:26 <ais523_> b_jonas: I guess I count only Freenode, which is not 100% English, but is very-high-percentage English
13:24:56 <ais523_> fizzie: characters that are used in both stringmode and normal mode?
13:25:05 <ais523_> actually, I wonder if Mycology does that at all
13:25:09 <ais523_> I think it does at least with spaces
13:25:40 <fizzie> ais523_: Those would be problematic, as would be characters that are both executed and read via g.
13:26:08 <ais523_> this sort of ambiguity was intentional in catseye's specs, I think
13:26:14 <ais523_> because he wanted to make Befunge as hard to compile as possible
13:26:19 <fizzie> (Except when they've read with g only to be written with p and executed again, in which case the exact value does not matter.)
13:26:55 <oerjan> ais523_: i'm pretty sure cpressey is he hth
13:26:58 <ais523_> this read/execute issue comes up in a lot of languages
13:27:10 <ais523_> it's the main difference between Underload and Underlambda, for instance
13:27:19 <ais523_> not that Underlambda is likely to ever be fully specified at this rate
13:27:32 <fizzie> I've misplaced my script of dumping out fungot's language models in a human-readable format. :/
13:27:32 <fungot> fizzie: one could ( more informally) write x(m 1..n) 0 0
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13:27:56 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:6: parse error on input ‘..’
13:29:44 <fizzie> That can't be right, it's claiming the unigram frequency of "the" is 2/8922315.
13:30:12 <oerjan> fizzie: does it work the "special" words?
13:32:55 <fizzie> It has sorted the labels alphabetically, but is taking the frequencies from the unsorted list.
13:32:56 <ais523_> now I'm mentally working on the challenge of "create a BF derivative that's as similar to BF as possible while being almost impossible to compile BF programs to"
13:33:25 <ais523_> ideally, one that is obviously curly-L-complete, and not in the HQ9+ sense
13:33:55 <ais523_> (I love the fact that esolang technology has developed so much that I can write sentences like that and have a decent chance of people knowing what I mean)
13:33:56 <TieSoul_> I just did that with Befunge :P
13:34:10 <TieSoul_> though not really intentionally
13:34:14 <ais523_> that's why I started thinking about doing that with BF, which is a harder core to work from
13:34:26 <ais523_> if we accomplish that, next stop is to do it with Thue :-)
13:37:08 <fizzie> Befunk's impossibility is also just for the generic case. I'd wager there are several Befunge programs that'd translate over pretty easily.
13:37:19 <fizzie> Also 3.09% of the tokens in fungot's "irc" model are the word "the".
13:37:19 <fungot> fizzie: really, it's just totally useless. i'd better go home, else i'll miss the one in scheme48 :) like us?
13:38:20 <fizzie> The corresponding figure for Google's book corpus is between 4.6% to 6.1%, depending on the publication year.
13:38:37 <TieSoul_> Yeah, most simple Befunge programs (i. e. programs that don't involve stringmode) can be converted quite simply
13:39:01 <TieSoul_> programs with stringmode can also be converted with slightly more work
13:39:20 <fizzie> Eyeball-extrapolating the trends, I'd estimate the IRC-speak of today is book-writing of 2060 or so, judging from the frequency of "the" alone.
13:39:27 <fizzie> (It's a downward trend.)
13:39:29 <TieSoul_> and programs with instructions both in and not in stringmode can't be converted
13:44:04 <FireFly> ais523_: what does "curly-L-complete" refer to?
13:45:10 <oerjan> FireFly: GET WITH THE TECHNOLOGY MAN
13:45:10 <ais523_> FireFly: an article on the wiki which I can't link to because I can't type the curly L and can't be bothered to look it up
13:45:20 <oerjan> and also the wiki is down.
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13:45:35 <ais523_> basically it means that the language can be used to implement at least one interpreter for a TC language
13:45:43 <ais523_> there is some debate about whether or not this means that the language is actually TC
13:45:51 <ais523_> although all TC languages are also curly-L-complete
13:48:13 <fizzie> oerjan: It's at times like these I'm happy I'm just administering the thing and not actually hosting it.
13:48:56 <oerjan> FireFly: it's basically about whether you should consider code distinct from input when defining TC-ness. (i'm on the "no" side.)
13:49:53 <oerjan> mainly because there are so many TC formalisms where separating code and input makes no real sense.
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13:51:49 <Melvar> Oh, right, stuff’s down.
13:52:09 <Melvar> Is that the intended curly L though?
13:52:31 <fizzie> Even important stuff, like people's MINECRAFT SERVERS, are down. (I checked Twitter.)
13:52:55 <oerjan> Melvar: yes. googling that with esolang gives the right hit.
13:53:28 <oerjan> too bad google stopped giving cached pages.
13:53:48 <fizzie> oerjan: There is a cached copy of it.
13:54:05 <oerjan> well yes, but can you get to it?
13:54:37 <fizzie> Yes, with a browser that doesn't load images or other useless stuff.
13:55:03 <fizzie> Given that if it were just images, it probably wouldn't block before rendering something.
13:55:54 <fizzie> (Or possibly it's stylesheets, I don't know what browsers do about those.)
13:56:03 <fizzie> In any case, it loads nicely with w3m.
13:56:34 <oerjan> i only get the translate link on the hit page, which doesn't load.
13:57:19 <oerjan> oh wait that tiny down arrow.
13:57:40 <fizzie> Yes, that's where they've put the cached-page link nowadays.
13:58:35 <fizzie> "ℒ is not infrequently written as "fancy L", in situations where 'ℒ' is difficult to type." apparently ais523_ used a nonstandard alternative term.
14:06:03 <Melvar> Well, it’s not necessarily curly in every font.
14:06:51 <Melvar> Also, a curly L could also be ȴ (LATIN SMALL LETTER L WITH CURL).
14:08:45 <ais523_> fizzie: I think "curly L" is the normal name for the computability class, if not the letter
14:13:03 <Melvar> ℒ is SCRIPT CAPITAL L btw.
14:31:02 <TieSoul_> I made a Befunk solution to Euler-1 hidden in an image file which displays the number 233168 :P
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16:48:22 <coppro> I have an idea. a pair of HTTP status codes for Request Interrupted and Resume Request
16:48:43 <coppro> intended to be used for a transparent auth gateway like on free wifi networks
16:49:03 <coppro> so that they original request isn't interrupted and the browser can still submit whatever it was submitting
16:50:50 <ais523_> coppro: those wifi auth gateways massively confuse my browser, to the extent that I've taken to using w3m for them
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16:53:23 <coppro> Bike: if they're stateful, the only state is that the server will give a unique key so that the client can remember which request it's resuming
16:54:06 <zzo38> I don't like those WiFi auth gateways; for one thing they require a web browser, and even if you have one, causes interruption. Better is to use standard WiFi passwords; if agreement to terms of service is required it can be on a separate paper.
16:54:45 <ais523_> zzo38: nowadays they require huge levels of auth
16:54:55 <ais523_> out of several I've used recently, the /least/ they required was an email address
16:55:20 <coppro> zzo38: That does not cover all use cases
16:55:24 <ais523_> one of them wanted to know email address, physical address, name, mobile telephone number (all required), plus an agreement to let them send me adverts
16:55:35 <ais523_> I couldn't agree to that even if I wanted to, due to not having a mobile phone
16:55:54 <coppro> It will work fine for, say, a hotel's wifi, but it doesn't work for the case where you are operating a public access point and wish to charge for access
16:55:59 <coppro> you may not have physical interaction with clients
16:56:43 <ais523_> coppro: there's already a status code for "payment required", but nobody uses it
16:57:00 <ais523_> it was intended for paywalls, presumably to stop the wall itself being cached rather than the page behind it
16:58:07 <coppro> nobody uses it because it's only reserved
16:59:11 <zzo38> Even if they do require additional auth, allowing it to work over telnet may help too, in addition to HTTP. However, even that isn't quite best way; it is also terrible.
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17:00:45 <zzo38> Some such access points seem to allow DNS to work without authorizing at first.
17:00:50 <coppro> do current browsers treat all unknown 300-class status codes as redirects? if so, that would make things much easier
17:01:11 <zzo38> You can simply store all the data you want to access in the DNS records.
17:01:31 <coppro> they may, however, intercept the DNS
17:01:50 <coppro> some such APs also allow all traffic other than port 80 through uninterrupted
17:02:00 <coppro> time for a reverse SSH proxy
17:02:08 <zzo38> Intercepting the DNS can cause several problems too.
17:04:57 <zzo38> If it also allows everything other than port 80 through uninterrupted, then this helps much (not completely) since you will unlikely access port 80 unless you need a webpage. However, there will then still be the case of accessing files over HTTP in other ways, although this might not be too common over WiFi. Even then, you may be able to use a SSH tunnel or download the file over SSH if you have a remote UNIX shell account somewhere.
17:05:37 <zzo38> (This will also allow you to use web browsers that run in text mode or in X, although you can also use any other program, too.)
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17:40:25 <mroman> I'm surprised my warriors are still on the hill
17:41:51 <ais523_> BF Joust hasn't seen much activity lately
17:42:27 <ais523_> I got frustrated when I got preparation to beat every other program, but not to top the hill
17:43:37 <ais523_> although it and smartlock tend to go back and forth beating each other when me and Oj742 are both active, because the matchup depends on minor details of both programs
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17:51:50 <TieSoul_> Guys, does any of you happen to know what happens when you try to pop a value in Whitespace, but the stack is empty?
17:56:58 <ais523_> TieSoul_: the problem with Whitespace is that it was basically created as an April 1 project (sort-of like a joke, but with more effort going into it), then abandoned
17:57:06 <ais523_> if you can track down the original interpreter, it's probably best to test on that
17:57:18 <TieSoul_> I have, but Haskell won't run it
17:57:38 <TieSoul_> it says that the module 'IO' is missing
17:58:53 <ais523_> oh, bleh, I find that when I try to run old Haskell code, half the modules are in different places
17:58:59 <ais523_> there's a relatively simple solution but I can't remember what it is
17:59:13 <ais523_> any Haskellers here who know? if not, you could probably ask #haskell, they'll almost certainly know
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17:59:40 <TieSoul_> I tried looking at the source code just now, but Haskell confuses the heck out of me
17:59:57 <ais523_> it's basically just a problem with finding the libraries
18:00:01 <b_jonas> what, isn't whitespace a really old esolang, like older than haskell?
18:00:18 <TieSoul_> the original interpreter was written in Haskell
18:00:32 <ais523_> main has type "IO ()" in Haskell, so you need a working definition of IO for any program to work
18:01:34 <elliott> b_jonas: there are only a couple esolangs older than haskell
18:01:46 <b_jonas> probably because haskell is old
18:01:51 <mroman> And if IO is missing something is really broken :)
18:01:56 <elliott> you can probably compile it with -XHaskell98 or something
18:02:01 <elliott> mroman: it is the module IO.
18:02:19 <mroman> that should be supported by almost any haskell compiler I thought
18:02:21 <elliott> yes. if it is missing then you are simply not using an ancient implementation
18:02:27 <elliott> no. it is System.IO etc. now
18:02:36 <Melvar> To the best of my knowledge, the one who made whitespace is the guy in charge of Idris.
18:02:37 <ais523_> TieSoul_: Whitespace is old by esolang standards, but Haskell is also old by esolang standards
18:02:45 <ais523_> it just doesn't feel that way, because Haskell's not an esolang
18:02:47 <mroman> but I thought ghc will find it anyway
18:02:54 <ais523_> so people don't normally compare it to esolangs age-wise
18:02:55 <mroman> (that is, if he's actually using ghc)
18:03:18 <ais523_> ghc doesn't use the old names for modules unless you tell it to
18:03:21 <ais523_> and I forget how to tell it to
18:03:24 <mroman> haskell98 is a hidden package
18:03:38 <mroman> Since when is that? o_O
18:03:48 <elliott> when did you start using haskell?
18:03:57 <elliott> it is quite possibly before then
18:03:59 <ais523_> actually, the mere name "Haskell98" is a clue as to how old it is
18:04:03 <elliott> haskell98 has been hidden for a long time
18:04:17 <mroman> I'd say 6 years ago or something
18:04:17 <ais523_> elliott: I found some of my own old Haskell code, it had unqualified module names
18:04:19 <Bicyclidine> i've got thirty years of experience in haskell
18:04:29 <b_jonas> Bicyclidine: what... no way
18:04:34 <elliott> ais523_: if it was written after 2002, you were just out of date :)
18:04:35 <b_jonas> haskell isn't even that old, is it?
18:04:52 <b_jonas> ais523_: I know, wait, I have a link for that
18:04:54 <ais523_> of people who hire job requirements asking for implausible amounts of experience in new technologies
18:05:09 <ais523_> elliott: that's entirely believable
18:05:28 <ais523_> I started esolanging with Malbolge and INTERCAL a little over seven years ago
18:05:29 <elliott> TieSoul_: -XHaskell98 -package haskell98 might work.
18:05:30 <b_jonas> ais523_: http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=956436
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18:06:45 <TieSoul_> It just says 'Prelude' and doesn't do anything
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18:07:37 <elliott> I doubt it just says "Prelude".
18:07:44 <elliott> if you told me what it actually says I might be able to help
18:08:21 <TieSoul_> it says "Prelude>" and then when I type what you just said it says "Not in scope: data constructor 'XHaskell98'"
18:08:53 <TieSoul_> I guess that means it doesn't exist
18:08:54 <elliott> ghc -XHaskell98 -package haskell98 foo.hs
18:10:16 <TieSoul_> Now it says "Ambiguous module name 'Prelude': it was found in multiple packages: base haskell98-2.0.0,2"
18:10:23 <elliott> okay, add -hide-all-packages
18:10:33 <elliott> before -package haskell98 I think
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18:11:50 <TieSoul_> but the file I ran for Whitespace just said it compiled a VM and then shut off :P
18:12:31 <TieSoul_> and it created files VM.hi and VM.o
18:13:09 * Melvar found the Idris implementation of Whitespace, but it was last update five months ago and has bitrotted.
18:13:33 <b_jonas> TieSoul_: what version of ghc are you using to compile? and what's the full command line you are using?
18:13:41 <elliott> most likely you want to do it again but add --make
18:13:54 <elliott> but also, update your GHC first, I think it is roughly ten years old or something
18:14:08 <elliott> ./VM should definitely exist with those results...
18:14:54 <b_jonas> maybe it created an executable with a different name?
18:15:40 <TieSoul_> the initial file was called VM.hs bt
18:16:29 <elliott> ok, I want to see the output of gcc --version and ls
18:16:41 <elliott> and I want to see the exact command you ran. b_jonas was right, I was wrong :p
18:17:37 <TieSoul_> and I used 'ghc -XHaskell98 -hide-all-packages -package haskell98 VM.hs'
18:17:58 <b_jonas> TieSoul_: try again with --make as an extra switch
18:17:59 <TieSoul_> output was "Compiling VM < VM.hs, VM.o >
18:18:15 <elliott> okay, and is there a file called VM?
18:18:17 <TieSoul_> any subsequent attempts to run resulted in no output
18:18:22 <elliott> does ./VM someprogram work?
18:18:34 <elliott> you just compiled VM -- the Whitespace interpreter -- you now need to run it
18:18:36 <b_jonas> (I'm not sure if that helps but it probably doesn't hurt)
18:18:47 <Melvar> Hm, the Idris implementation only requires ripping out a module the contents of which have been added to the stdlib.
18:18:52 <elliott> b_jonas: I don't think a single thing went wrong with compilation
18:21:11 <b_jonas> TieSoul_: so can you tell whether there's a file called ./VM or ./a.out or similar?
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18:24:01 <TieSoul_> using the same parameters as before worked with ./VM, but when I input a filename it output nothing when it was supposed to output '6'.
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18:25:07 <ais523_> hmm, what's up with the join/part spam
18:25:18 <ais523_> the timing's too consistent for it to be likely to be a bad connection
18:25:46 <b_jonas> that's not spam, that was only three connect attempts
18:26:44 <ais523_> well, I guess it's the timing
18:33:44 <elliott> TieSoul_: ./VM should not take any parameters btu the filename
18:33:53 <elliott> or possibly it should even be ./VM < whitespace.file
18:34:03 <elliott> again, ghc and VM are distinct -- ghc is a Haskell compiler, VM is a whitespace interpreter
18:34:16 <elliott> the flags you needed were for ghc to turn the source code VM.hs into the whitespace interpreter VM, which has its own arguments
18:35:03 <TieSoul_> if I try ./VM on its own it gives me an error
18:35:18 <ais523_> what's the message? that could be pretty helpful here
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18:35:55 <elliott> callforjudgement: you mean you're not psychic...?
18:35:57 <TieSoul_> I'm on windows, "'VM' was not recognized as (...) a file'
18:35:59 <elliott> how do you ever help anyone on IRC?
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18:36:09 <elliott> TieSoul_: okay, VM.exe whitespaceprog then
18:36:25 <TieSoul_> VM.exe isn't recognized either
18:37:12 <elliott> what files are listed when you "dir"?
18:37:43 <TieSoul_> that's all files starting with VM
18:39:22 <elliott> TieSoul_: ok, I just looked at the whitespace code.
18:39:29 <elliott> why are you compiling VM.hs? the main program is main.hs
18:39:48 <TieSoul_> Banging my head on my keyboard right now
18:39:58 <TieSoul_> well, not right now, but I will be when I finish typing
18:40:17 <mroman> it's hard to hit the enter key
18:40:21 <elliott> it'll become main.exe or something.
18:40:33 <mroman> also the nose is very exposed actually for that kind of task
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18:48:02 <TieSoul_> oh, it throws a 'UserError' because it can't pop :P
18:49:16 <Taneb> I have a 25 amazon voucher, what should I spend it on?
18:50:10 <ais523_> what does it say about me that my initial reaction was "£25 of goods from Amazon", and I was almost about to type it before I realized it was a useless answer
18:50:17 <ais523_> as opposed to saying it /because/ it was a useless answer
18:50:48 <Koen_> two weeks ago I signed a paper forbidding me to buy stuff from amazon
18:51:17 <Koen_> something about fighting for idnependant bookshops
18:51:37 <Koen_> (the girl from the bookshop is hot)
18:51:49 <ais523_> Koen_: just pay 1 eurocent shipping, surely?
18:52:13 <ais523_> (I'm assuming this is related to the recent French tax law changes)
18:52:28 <Taneb> I was thinking something like Pearls of Functional Algorithm Design but that is MORE THAN 25 POUNDS
18:52:34 <ais523_> (and Amazon getting round the letter of a law against free shipping)
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18:53:16 <ais523_> Taneb: do Amazon sell printed copies of the INTERCAL manuals? either of them
18:53:31 <elliott> Bicyclidine: I don't think Koen_ plans on adhering to his pledge.
18:53:39 <elliott> so I'm not sure you can call it an opinion.
18:53:57 <ais523_> it's possible, given that apparently there are entire publishers who work on automatically generating books on demand from GFDL/CC-by-sa content from Wikipedia
18:54:05 <Taneb> ais523_, doesn't look like it :(
18:54:06 <ais523_> and the INTERCAL manuals are GPL and GFDL respectively
18:54:19 <Taneb> Or at least I couldn't find it in 10 seconds
18:54:39 <b_jonas> ais523_: sure, and wikipedia has some export options built in too, only people never seem to notice that
18:54:41 <Bicyclidine> on the other hand, there's a song called "Intercal" on sale for 89¢.
18:54:44 <Koen_> I'm completely adhering elliott, or I wouldn't have signed
18:55:09 <ais523_> b_jonas: I remember when those rolled out, and use them when I want to download Wikipedia pages for use offline
18:55:19 <b_jonas> ais523_: prominently labelled as "Print/export: Create a book; Download as PDF; Printable version"
18:55:34 <elliott> Koen_: actively or just by default because you didn't buy anything from amazon anyway? :)
18:55:51 <b_jonas> there's an api too for machine interaction with mediawiki
18:55:59 <ais523_> come to think of it, I don't think I've bought anything from Amazon, unless you count using them as the payment processor for Humble Bundle
18:56:00 <Bicyclidine> http://www.amazon.com/Obfuscated-X-Mas-Intercal/dp/B00ALIHXPQ/ hoo boy.
18:56:10 <ais523_> b_jonas: I remember the API rolling out, too
18:56:28 <b_jonas> ais523_: I don't remember these rolling out
18:56:39 <Bicyclidine> I've bought a lot from Amazon. THe last time I bought a book not from Amazon it turned out that the company I bought it from had been bought by Amazon a few years ago.
18:56:44 <b_jonas> oh, and there's Special:Export too
18:56:53 <Bicyclidine> Anyway, I know the local used shop uses AMazon to sell off inventory. I guess there's a system for that.
18:56:59 <ais523_> b_jonas: that's used for transferring pages to other wikis, normally
18:57:07 <ais523_> anyone can use the export end, but the import end of it requires special admin powers
18:57:15 <ais523_> which I actually had once, but I'm not sure if I ever used them
18:57:21 <ais523_> it seems possible that I did, but I can't remember why
18:57:25 <b_jonas> ais523_: sure, but the export is useful alone too
18:57:44 <b_jonas> and it was probably even more useful back when the api didn't exist
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19:01:35 <fizzie> I've bought a copy of TAOCP from Amazon, which I'll mention because it's a street-credible purchase.
19:01:46 <b_jonas> fizzie: the English original?
19:02:33 <fizzie> The Vols. 1-3 set -- http://www.amazon.com/The-Art-Computer-Programming-Vols/dp/0201485419/ -- because Vol. 4A wasn't out yet.
19:03:36 <fizzie> Huh, you can rent books from Amazon now?
19:03:57 <Taneb> fizzie, my housemate has a copy so I don't think I'll buy that just yet
19:04:06 <fizzie> The 1-4A set -- http://www.amazon.com/Computer-Programming-Volumes-1-4A-Boxed/dp/0321751043/ -- sells for $177.26 and rents for $99.25.
19:04:28 <TieSoul_> if the first bit represents sign, does that mean that '11' means '-1'?
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19:04:43 <fizzie> Oh, so it's for a one-semester rent, for people who need it as a textbook.
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19:06:07 <Bicyclidine> are there classes that actually use taocp as a textbook?
19:06:13 <fizzie> I haven't heard of any.
19:06:26 <fizzie> Sounds a bit hard-core.
19:06:41 <fizzie> Esp. using the entire book.
19:07:34 <Bicyclidine> http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1989624 My god.
19:08:07 <fizzie> Well, that ("two courses, each based on different sections of TAOCP volume 4a") makes more sense.
19:09:11 <Bicyclidine> the author says when he was an undergrad he had a course use vol 1
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19:16:29 <fizzie> (The Intercal album also has a song called Cobol on it.)
19:26:39 <fizzie> http://shop.central-processing-unit.co.uk/album/intercal
19:26:56 <fizzie> It was alluded to, earlier; it's what Amazon returns if one searches for "INTERCAL".
19:28:28 <callforjudgement> I use searches for "INTERCAL" as a quick method of gauging the usefulness of search engines
19:28:53 <callforjudgement> I weight them higher if they return more relevant/recent information, and/or if they return relevant pages I haven't seen before
19:32:17 <Taneb> ...I still don't know what to spend my Amazon voucher on
19:33:19 <Taneb> ...I still don't know what to spend my Amazon voucher on
19:34:08 <ais523_> £25 is that awkward spot where it's not enough for anything really substantive, but too much for something frivolous
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19:39:15 <fizzie> Taneb: I've heard good things about that Concrete Mathematics book, but it's more than £25 too.
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19:40:27 <fizzie> You could almost buy "generatingfunctionology", which is probably the funniest name of a textbook on any course I took.
19:48:26 <Taneb> fizzie, right, I'm about to order Concrete Mathematics
19:50:16 <fizzie> I disclaim all responsibility if it turns out to be a pile of horse manure.
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19:57:14 <Bicyclidine> generatingfunctionology is also free online...
19:57:36 <Bicyclidine> i guess a free download is an "almost buy".
19:58:12 <Bicyclidine> Anyway, does anybody know about sound waves? I'm trying to figure out where a sqrt(2) factor comes from in getting a wave's amplitude to match a dB SPL.
20:00:00 <ion> http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/eglin-air-force-base-busted-gaming-reddit.html
20:02:01 <Bicyclidine> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_influence_on_public_opinion
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22:27:57 <zzo38> They had KANGASKHAN [Lv.40] in their bench, with a lot of damage on it but also a lot of energy, and I couldn't remove it normally so instead I switched to GENGAR [Lv.38] in order to sacrifice it and defeating their card at the same time, and then use POKEMON FLUTE to put it back with no energy and then activate CLEFAIRY [Lv.15] again in order to reactivate KANGASKHAN [Lv.40]. And then use ENERGY REMOVAL again once they attached another energy car
22:29:53 <zzo38> There, now he ran out of cards.
22:31:59 <zzo38> (That is the only of their cards that I knocked out.)
22:33:17 <zzo38> This is really a game of positional tactics.
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22:46:38 <FireFly> zzo38: does the Gameboy game allow multiple retreats a turn? I forget
22:47:59 <zzo38> FireFly: Yes; that is a standard rule of Pokemon Card.
22:48:40 <zzo38> Pokemon Card GB2 uses all of the normal rules, except that you do not get the choice to draw two more cards if your opponent starts the game with no basic pokemon cards in their hand.
22:48:43 <FireFly> It makes cards having a retreat cost of 0 interesting
22:49:45 <zzo38> Yes, I know. It becomes especially useful if you are then confused or sand or something like that.
22:50:36 <zzo38> But, of course, if the retreat cost is zero this also mean it is more difficult to take back any recycle energies which are attached to it.
22:50:52 <zzo38> There are several ways around that.
22:53:25 <zzo38> Did you try to see my fifth Pokemon Card puzzle by now?
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22:58:16 <FireFly> Hm, I don't think I've tried it, or at least not solved it
23:01:39 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
23:02:56 <zzo38> Then see if you can figure out anything of it.
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23:11:09 <Sgeo> Ok, pretty sure I prefer Sinatra to the poorly thought out clone in Haskell called Scotty
23:11:19 <Sgeo> Although Simple may be more expressive
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23:48:10 <zzo38> Can you write music using undertone scales?
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23:52:38 <JWinslow23> It's not working at all for me for some reason.
23:52:43 <boily> it is dead. very dead.
23:52:49 <boily> also, everything else.
23:53:04 <JWinslow23> Well, how in heck will I be able to go to the pages?
23:53:37 <elliott> I'm... not sure what kind of answer you're expecting there
23:53:57 <JWinslow23> As in, is there any way I can go back and look at the wiki in its former glory again?
23:54:03 <boily> the pages, they are also dead. Gregor may resuscitate them some time soon.
23:54:24 <boily> hosting problems. a whole host of problems.
23:55:40 <elliott> yes, I would call cloudatcost a whole host of problems
23:55:58 <elliott> JWinslow23: you can use google cache or web.archive.org or whatever for now. there are backups of the wiki too. but this is just temporary
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00:01:33 <boily> quintopia: QUINTOPIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAÁ!
00:04:24 <fizzie> I keep looking at Twitter for latest cloudatcost news; this time there's: "@cloudatcost copying @digitalocean community articles for their knowledge base. Seriously, the CC BY NC SA license isn't that hard to follow"
00:04:55 <elliott> fizzie: don't you have a VPS or something? :p
00:05:46 <fizzie> Yes, one with 256M of RAM, and lighttpd for a web server. Though I guess it might be better than none.
00:06:07 <fizzie> I've actually been sort-of looking at DigitalOcean's $5/month "droplet".
00:06:11 <elliott> how much are you paying for it?
00:06:45 <elliott> yeah, DO would be way better than that.
00:07:01 <elliott> especially if you moved the wiki there :P
00:07:57 <fizzie> To be fair, Tilaa's current lowest-end config (5.55€/month + tax) is pretty close to DO's deal, except without the SSD thing.
00:08:27 <fizzie> And with "unlimited" (fsvo) traffic, vs. DO's 1 TB.
00:09:03 <elliott> that is, indeed, fair. (?)
00:09:06 <fizzie> But I'd lose my IPv6s!1
00:09:20 <fizzie> (DO only has native v6 in their Singapore location at the moment.)
00:09:54 <elliott> no, they have it in london too
00:10:22 <fizzie> Okay, yes, but the London is super-new, I last looked at these things like three days ago.
00:11:19 <fizzie> There's also the major thing that if I were hosting this, it'd be my problem when it doesn't work.
00:11:29 <elliott> it already is. I ping both of you.
00:11:45 <fizzie> I guess, but I can just ignore it and go to sleep.
00:11:53 <fizzie> (Which is what I'll be doing any moment now.)
00:12:47 <elliott> what? it's only 3 am there!
00:13:50 <fizzie> (Not in any sensible sense.)
00:18:50 <zzo38> FireFly: O, do you like my new card game too, "The Aberration Hater Card Game"?
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00:37:21 <boily> quintopia: yesterday I tasted an interesting beer. http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/dieu-du-ciel-lherbe-a-detourne/123975/
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00:39:35 <boily> it's one of those treacherous ones where you realize the full extent of your pint when you try to stand up.
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01:13:26 <metasepia> CYUL 160100Z 13004KT 15SM FEW030TCU FEW080 SCT150 BKN240 20/18 A2970 RMK TCU1AC1AC2CI3 SLP056 DENSITY ALT 900FT
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03:31:38 <zzo38> I saw some fairy chess problem, where due to the additional piece, it is not allowed to promote into a queen because doing so would put you in check, but promoting to other pieces is OK.
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05:38:04 <zzo38> The modes for The Aberration Hater Card Game might be: Versus (2-players, individal roles), Neutral (3-p, ind. roles), Bridge (4-p in teams, partners sit across, each team has a role), Washizu (4-p in teams, partners sit adjacent, ind. roles), Mirror (2-p, same roles), Cutthroat (3-p, same roles), and perhaps there can be others too, such as Solitaire.
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08:17:19 <b_jonas> "Abberation Hater"? what's that?
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09:13:00 <b_jonas> TieSoul_: could you eventually get the old whitespace interpreter to work?
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09:14:38 <fizzie> That's a reasonable thing to wonder about.
09:14:43 <oerjan> no, fingers, that's not backspace.
09:14:54 <fizzie> fungot: Do you ever wonder if anythin?
09:14:54 <fungot> fizzie: i fnord 1)...) where you can replace it with ' quick' or ' what would you use? :) ( i.e. zooming functions to the beginning
09:16:17 <oerjan> i wonder how much of -Xhaskell98 will still keep working in ghc in ghc 6.10
09:17:35 <oerjan> the applicative-monad merge will definitely break my old unlambda interpreter, if it hasn't already. although someone else is maintaining its descendant on hackage anyway.
09:21:19 <b_jonas> you mean Monad will become a subclass of Applicative so you will have to declare instances to Monad differently?
09:21:23 <oerjan> seems my Unlambda interpreter still works in 7.6.3 with the right flags
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09:21:53 <oerjan> b_jonas: yes. the interpreter contains a custom Monad instance, but naturally no Applicative one.
09:22:18 <b_jonas> oerjan: but don't they add some language magic so that the old declarations work?
09:22:20 <oerjan> (however those flags make :main break, although plain main works)
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09:22:54 <oerjan> b_jonas: no. they've simple made ghc 7.8 a transition period, with warnings for things that will break. but you still need to change code.
09:23:25 <b_jonas> oerjan: besides Monad, what else has changed?
09:23:42 <b_jonas> btw, is Applicative still a subclass of Functor?
09:24:28 <oerjan> so you need to declare that too
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09:25:40 <oerjan> basically they gave up on finding a backwards compatible way of rearranging class hierarchies. :(
09:26:11 <b_jonas> oerjan: there were some attempts, such as https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/IntrinsicSuperclasses
09:26:59 <b_jonas> maybe they'll still do something (even if not exactly that) till 6.10
09:28:05 <oerjan> extremely unlikely, it's too little time left.
09:28:32 <b_jonas> isn't breaking H89 compatibility also too big a change?
09:28:52 <b_jonas> is it at least possible to write code that works with both the old and new Monad?
09:29:02 <oerjan> sure. but they jumped the shark on that when they removed Eq as a Num superclass, i think.
09:29:43 <oerjan> sure, if you define Applicative and Functor simultaneously, it will work in both.
09:30:11 <fizzie> How does GHC versioning work, if something called "6.10" is later than "7.8"?
09:31:39 <fizzie> Oh, well, that's boringly normal. I was hoping for something wacky.
09:31:47 <b_jonas> sorry, I messed that up too
09:32:00 <oerjan> you're excused, you just copied me
09:32:23 <oerjan> HE WAS JUST FOLLOWING ORDERS
09:34:01 <oerjan> there was a reddit post the other day where someone was confused about why haskell's versioning (Package Versioning Policy or PVP) differs from Semantic Versioning
09:34:31 <oerjan> (technically you can combine those just fine, _except_ PVP has two numbers for major version)
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09:35:03 <b_jonas> so what's this aberration hater thing zzo has mentioned?
09:35:09 <fizzie> [latest @cloudatcost tweet] "Tip of the day - If you search for [city, state zip codes] in Google, you will be presented with all of the zip codes in that location. Ex : ny, new york zip codes" yes, fine, very clever, but how about fixing those servers instead of concentrating on that?
09:35:31 <oerjan> b_jonas: some game he made inspired by his D&D campaign, i think
09:36:31 <oerjan> (iirc he plays an illithid/mind flayer, which is an Aberration monster, and the campaign world has major discrimination against those)
09:37:36 <oerjan> (of course in standard D&D illithids are usually extremely Evil, but at least in his campaign not all are, including iiuc his character)
09:39:33 <oerjan> i mainly know this because the yafgc comic has a major (evil) illithid character. incidentally yafgc has been down for weeks.
09:40:14 <oerjan> well somewhat major. he seems to have done little in recent arcs.
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09:41:04 <b_jonas> so in this game illithids are like dark elves in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html , where "the whole species consists of nothing but Chaotic Good rebels, yearning to throw off the reputation of their evil kin."
09:43:24 <oerjan> b_jonas: i don't know if it's that bad, you'll have to ask zzo38.
09:44:51 <oerjan> the dark elf thing is common enough that i've seen it in another place (the Goblins comic), it's a reference to players copying the literary character http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drizzt_Do'Urden
09:46:09 <oerjan> oots lampshades that even further later.
10:07:15 <b_jonas> oerjan: sure, like in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html
10:07:39 <b_jonas> unflattering images of halflings and of rogues
10:09:16 <b_jonas> and of course there's the color-coded dragons
10:09:20 <oerjan> i meant the drizzt thing specifically.
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12:07:02 <b_jonas> what's this "poco" library that some people mentioned?
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16:06:27 <Koen_> goodafternoon fellow esolangers
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17:02:02 <zzo38> "the whole species consists of nothing but Chaotic Good rebels, yearning to throw off the reputation of their evil kin."
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17:02:17 <zzo38> What makes you think it is true? It is impossible.
17:03:24 <zzo38> It does not apply to any species in my game, because it doesn't make any sense.
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17:03:37 <zzo38> Any species has good, evil, and neutral people.
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17:07:51 <zzo38> With mostly (but not entirely) equal amounts, but people hate them anyways. Most of them have no place in the card game however, because it is a card game. It is still untrue in a card game too. But Aberration Hater certainly does not care whether or not it is true; that is not their job.
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17:08:23 <zzo38> quintopia: Perhaps it can be hilarious, but that doesn't make it sensible. Perhaps in some game/story world it can be true, but not in mine because it is not sensible to me.
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17:21:48 <zzo38> Tell oerjan; they are the one who made this mistake, it seems.
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17:29:31 <zzo38> Aberration Hater is an evil society, but its members just as well might not be! This sometimes causes confusion with people who are not thinking clearly.
17:29:35 <quintopia> zzo38: do you not see how it could be interpreted as sensible? do you see the hilarity?
17:29:56 <zzo38> quintopia: The latter.
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17:31:14 <quintopia> zzo38: it's hilarious because it describes the human species. WE are all (excepting sociopaths) chaotic good. there are no TRULY evil among us. (sociopaths are neutral)
17:31:38 <quintopia> and we are all out to right the wrongs of the other humans WE perceive as evil
17:32:08 <zzo38> I can see what you mean, but I do not think it is actually true nonetheless.
17:33:08 <quintopia> probably something you're not interested in
17:33:53 <zzo38> Of course I cannot know for sure, but that is not how I define such things.
17:33:57 <elliott> if you think everyone is chaotic good, have you seen ais523? he's way too boring for that
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17:36:36 <zzo38> When will they fix the esolang wiki?
17:37:22 <Phantom_Hoover> <quintopia> zzo38: it's hilarious because it describes the human species. WE are all (excepting sociopaths) chaotic good. there are no TRULY evil among us. (sociopaths are neutral)
17:37:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: moral relativism, duuuuuuuuude
17:39:55 <Phantom_Hoover> i always thought the joke was that it's true because all drow characters are drizzt knockoffs, you see
17:40:33 <zzo38> See? Now you have a difference in opinion.
17:47:55 <zzo38> And, this difference in opinion is what is the point.
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17:48:48 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: i didn't read the context so i don't know what "the joke" is. i'm just reporting why i find it a funny concept
17:49:50 <zzo38> quintopia: Ah. s/"the joke"/"this joke"/
17:52:19 <zzo38> No you tried to mean what you said, but you should have meant that you meant something.
17:53:10 <quintopia> the thing that i said matches what i meant better than your correction in my opinion
17:54:00 <quintopia> although perhaps better would have been "\"the\" joke"
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18:34:19 <Bike> this morning i argued that nobody really defined their political position as "chaos" because that would be too dumb. thanks for proving me rong
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19:34:55 <quintopia> i see no proof here of his particular claim
19:35:57 <Phantom_Hoover> like 'lawful good' only makes sense for deliberately obtuse cases like ais523
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19:36:47 <Bike> it's a way of justifying roleplaying as goblin murderers. nothing much else to read into it.
19:36:53 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: it's to do with whether I character has rules for themselves which they strictly obey. there are few people that have this property in reality, so it's more of a gimmick to make a character easier to play while keeping it unique and 'in character'
19:38:26 <zzo38> Well, there are things in between too, at various degrees.
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19:47:25 <zzo38> My ideas for working of "detect alignment" spells are different from the common way where it is simply assumed that a character has an alignment and that one is detected. Rather I am using a different way:
19:50:21 <zzo38> The following points will have an affect on the detection: * What the target is currently doing and acting. * The recent past of effects of what they are commonly doing. * Alignment descriptors of creatures, spells, and active (not passive) magical objects. * If the target is a cleric, their deity. * If the caster is a cleric, their deity. * If cast directly (not from a scroll), the caster's personal prejudices have a minor effect on it too.
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19:52:00 <zzo38> The first point above has also been made in a document saying that rule could be used in horror stories, however I have come up with that and all the other points independently, and for other reasons.
19:53:28 <zzo38> s/other reasons/different reasons/
19:53:59 <zzo38> Due to the points above, it is possible for multiple alignments to register at once, for example if a man casts a spell with a good descriptor for evil purposes, or if the devil does something good for a change.
19:55:20 <zzo38> quintopia: You can fall back if you are unable to resolve it properly.
19:58:05 <zzo38> Bike: I do think that descripting your political position using one or two words doesn't explain a lot; you should be more specific. Such words can only describe it in general, not in specifics, and specifics are important too.
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20:30:33 <Taneb> I am a sucker for maths books
20:31:33 <Taneb> Just acquired a friend's copy of Mathematical Methods for Physics and Engineering
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21:33:37 <newsham> "have you managed to unfuck my cluster?"
21:33:47 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> i always thought the joke was that it's true because all drow characters are drizzt knockoffs, you see <-- well that's the joke _i_ was referencing, anyway.
21:34:21 <oerjan> @tell Phantom_Hoover <Phantom_Hoover> i always thought the joke was that it's true because all drow characters are drizzt knockoffs, you see <-- well that's the joke _i_ was referencing, anyway.
21:35:59 <elliott> no it's about how we are all four ourselves in this world of grey areas [smoke's a weed]
21:36:49 <oerjan> i thought only the time cube guy was four himself
21:39:11 <elliott> don't make me smoke another weed
21:40:32 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: is this a bloom county reference
21:44:24 <oerjan> #9 here http://www.thecomicstrips.com/subject/The-Dandelion-Comic-Strips-by-Bloom+County.php
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21:47:29 * oerjan only checked the sunday strip ones, anyway
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21:55:56 <oerjan> "I'm gonna look for less morbid questions for a while." if you say so, randall.
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23:13:26 <oerjan> the foglios need to get some tips from dmm on how to keep a webcomic schedule.
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23:14:43 <oerjan> "If you are a member of Worldcon and want to vote for Girl Genius, ballots are due by August 1! If you want to vote for any of our admittedly excellent competitors, the deadline is August 2."
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23:20:49 <newsham> what if i wanted to vote for a white dood?
23:22:19 <oerjan> i thought the foglios were, like, white
23:22:31 <oerjan> otherwise they have some _amazing_ makeup
23:22:59 <oerjan> one of the foglios is male hth
23:24:10 <Phantom_Hoover> he's... maybe making reference to the 'girl genius' part?
23:24:26 <oerjan> ssh i'm pretending not to understand that
23:26:35 <lambdabot> EliezerYudkowsky says: Perfect software has an interface which is both telepathic and precognitive.
23:27:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yeah but I was more wondering about the part where the joke made no sense and wasn't funny
23:31:10 <newsham> girl geniuses are awesome and all
23:33:33 <elliott> do you know what girl genius is
23:36:52 <oerjan> that was my first guess
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23:59:34 <boily> @tell oerjan byely?
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00:06:18 <zzo38> A variant of bridge can be if everyone passes, instead of redealing the cards, there is no dummy and no trumps and whoever takes the least number of tricks is the winner.
00:13:31 <boily> I haven't found people to play bridge with yet.
00:26:48 <quintopia> i can't play bridge with you but i could play portal 2 with you or borderlands 2 with you
00:28:09 <boily> incidemment, I just installed steam on my laptop, and I'm currently in the process of installing games.
00:28:37 <boily> I only have the first portal, but I should be having had will bought portal 2 some time soon in the near future.
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00:35:19 <boily> invite currently being seen...
01:19:29 <zzo38> I think what I should do is The Aberration Hater Card Game, all of card have the same set of subtypes, unlike in Magic: the Gathering where they use different set of subtypes although some card types use same one (such as Tribal with Creature). I don't like that so I can make this one to simplify the rules a bit.
01:20:01 <zzo38> Do you think it make more sense or not?
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01:51:58 <Sgeo> I made the mistake of reading about Perl
01:51:58 <Sgeo> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5680147/perl-passing-2-or-more-arrays-to-a-subroutine
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03:00:04 <zzo38> I don't know how you pass arrays in Perl.
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04:25:09 <Sgeo> In Perl, the string "0" is falsey
04:34:54 <zzo38> I have the source-codes for Infocom's Z-machine interpreter on Commodore 64, as well as a binary. It looks like it is supposed to load the first 256 bytes of the binary starting at $0500 and the rest starting at $0D00. I don't know much about Commodore 64; do you know the reason for this?
04:35:23 <zzo38> Also what is the capacity of a Commodore 64 disk?
04:36:28 <Sgeo> "Mercifully, there is no elsunless keyword."
04:40:45 <zzo38> I found a file written by Infocom that says "Remember: We Hate Micros (tm)"
04:40:56 <Sgeo> Can I write my own map function in Perl, or does the builtin one use some kind of magic?
04:45:35 <Sgeo> Even Perl's official documentation complains about Perl
04:45:36 <Sgeo> "This function should have been named wantlist() instead."
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05:46:16 <^v> Sgeo, my what
05:46:54 <^v> Even Perl's official documentation complains about Perl
05:51:18 <Sgeo> http://perldoc.perl.org/functions/wantarray.html
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05:57:52 <Bike> perl sure is scary.
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06:34:32 <Sgeo> "The lone dot that ends a format can also prematurely end a mail message passing through a misconfigured Internet mailer (and based on experience, such misconfiguration is the rule, not the exception)."
06:34:38 <Sgeo> This is not Perl being scary here.
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06:36:25 <Sgeo> http://perldoc.perl.org/perllol.html
06:36:27 <Sgeo> Oh, possibly list of list?
06:37:34 <Sgeo> "Well, that's because the rule is that on adjacent brackets only (whether square or curly), you are free to omit the pointer dereferencing arrow."
06:37:55 <Sgeo> I... guess because otherwise ][ doesn't make actual sense as a thing that would be useful?
06:47:42 <fizzie> "Are you still thinking whether to move to #cloud computing or not? Well, its no more a trend but rather a business norm. Make your move now with Cloud at Cost affordable cloud solutions. --"
06:47:59 <fizzie> Well, I won't be making my move until esolangs.org is back up.
06:48:28 <fizzie> Gregor: Have you happened to take a glance at the web-admin panel? Who knows, maybe it'd say something useful now.
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07:10:09 <zzo38> Why is SLOWBRO [Lv.35] so strange?
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09:35:51 <shachaf> zzo38: What is strange about it?
09:36:18 <fizzie> oerjan: Adverbily said.
09:37:13 <shachaf> fizzie: how do mölkky championships even work
09:37:19 <shachaf> it doesn't really seem like that sort of game
09:37:56 <oerjan> the finnish manage to have championships in _wife-carrying_. surely they can work it out.
09:38:21 <fizzie> I'm not sure why not. I mean, you do count a score and all.
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09:39:16 <fizzie> (It's a team thing, you've got 6-person teams and you select a 4-person subset with a set throw order for each game.)
09:40:02 <shachaf> hm, maybe it works better with teams
09:43:32 <oerjan> "##The wife to be carried may be your own, or the neighbor's, or you may have found her further afield; she must, however, be over 17 years of age."
09:44:59 <fizzie> I think there was a Finnish winner in the recently ended 2014 wife-carrying championship.
09:45:10 <fizzie> It's usually either Finnish or Estonian.
09:47:23 <fizzie> "Along with the wife carrying world championships there is also a team competition. The track and rules are the same as Wife Carrying World Championsips but three men in the team carry the wife in turns. At the exchange point the carrier has to drink the official “wife carrying drink” before continuing the race."
09:47:28 <oerjan> s/usually/always/, by wikipedia's list
09:48:23 <fizzie> Well, the silver medalists for 2014 are from UK.
09:48:33 <fizzie> I was under the impression that there was a German winner, but apparently not.
09:49:28 <Melvar> Hm, where does one get a blas?
09:50:39 <fizzie> OpenBLAS is not too shabby. And there's always the good old ATLAS.
09:51:42 <fizzie> And of course there are the processor vendor ones.
09:51:49 <Melvar> libopenblas.so doesn’t seem to contain the copy routines which I’m looking for.
09:51:53 <b_jonas> there's also the blas built from eigen
09:51:56 <b_jonas> but yes, I recommend openblas
09:52:18 <oerjan> "In 2014, the Iditarod Trail Sled Dog Race sent a cease-and-desist order to Iditarod NYC, asserting that the name "Idiotarod" infringed its trademark in "Iditarod."[8][9] Idiotarod NYC characterized the letter as "frivolous threats of legal action", but renamed the event to "Idiotarodorama NYC (aka 'The Desistarod')"."
09:56:07 <fizzie> That doesn't sound like a BLAS name.
09:58:05 * Melvar has little idea about this …
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10:00:07 <Melvar> It’s in the blas technical forum standard chapter 2. Is this one of those standards that nobody cares to implement in practice?
10:00:27 <b_jonas> Melvar: yes, the blas technical forum is one of those
10:01:04 <b_jonas> Melvar: everyone still either uses the old legacy blas and lapack fortran functions, their C wrappers (cblas and lapacke but the latter is barely used),
10:01:41 <Melvar> Grand. Somehow I had been hoping that people would be actually sane about this kind of lib …
10:01:47 <b_jonas> or something with a more modern interface like eigen. The blas forum is supposed to have been a bit more modern (in 2001) than cblas but it didn't seem to have caught on.
10:01:59 <fizzie> "Sane" and "scientific computing" don't really often go hand-in-hand.
10:02:36 <b_jonas> Melvar: if it's new code (not constrained with compatibility), I recommend you try eigen version 3, get it from http://eigen.tuxfamily.org/
10:03:24 <Melvar> I don’t think I can call C++ …
10:03:49 <b_jonas> it's a C++ library that has an interface _very_ different from any of blas, lapack, cblas, lapacke, blas_forum; though the library happens to provide an implementation of blas.
10:03:54 <b_jonas> Melvar: what language are you calling from?
10:04:21 <b_jonas> and perhaps tell us more about what you want to do
10:06:24 <oerjan> he has this X that he wants to map into a Y
10:06:27 <b_jonas> you said dge_copy, that copies a matrix, possibly transposing or conjugating or hermiteing it, right?
10:06:52 <Melvar> PoC for binding lower-level linear algebra routines in Idris.
10:06:59 <fizzie> Fun fact: our thing uses LAPACK++, and it's the only such thing I've seen.
10:09:48 <Melvar> But, since as it turns out I need wrappers anyway, I’m actually calling the routines from C. I’m just trying to avoid writing major amounts of C.
10:10:23 <b_jonas> Melvar: that's why I mentioned cblas, which wraps the original fortran blas routines to C
10:11:12 <b_jonas> sadly that doesn't seem to have a function that _just_ copies a matrix possibly transposed. it only has a vector copy function.
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10:12:59 <Melvar> Yes, I’ll just have to write the copy myself, I guess. And hope I don’t make any mistakes that C can’t catch, which is most of them …
10:13:16 <b_jonas> (one more library there is is the ublas library from boost, but it's C++ and isn't really blas-like despite its name, and I don't really like it)
10:13:48 <fizzie> Intel's MKL adds something that sounds very "dge_copy"ish as a custom "BLAS-like" extension, so it's probably a oft-requested feature.
10:13:50 <b_jonas> do you want a copy, or a transposed copy? on a matrix with gaps between the rows that must not be overwritten, or one that can be written in full?
10:14:06 <b_jonas> possible, I don't know the intel stuff much
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10:17:25 <Melvar> A copy, with gaps. (I want to be able to copy to submatrices.)
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10:19:05 <Melvar> Man, I just realized that it should work when the source and destination overlap.
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10:29:06 <elliott> fizzie: this downtime is :/
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10:29:13 <boily> oerjan: hellørjanly :D
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10:35:48 <fizzie> elliott: It is. I put up a temporary "out of order" page (with a DNS change), but it'll take a whole day to propagate. (And then another whole day to disappear when things are back up, I guess, but it doesn't seem things are working very fast.)
10:36:24 <elliott> fizzie: I trust cloudatcost even less than I previously did now.
10:36:58 <fizzie> I don't know whether Gregor has a trouble-ticket open there. (Though based on the tweets, it might not do much good.)
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10:40:26 <fizzie> Even if I were to permanently move the wiki, I'd like to get the most recent version out of the cloudhole first. Staying true to the time-honoured esolangs-administering principles of do-as-little-as-humanly-possible, I didn't actually add my (rsync-based) mirroring thing to the crontab after all, just thought about it.
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10:44:11 <fizzie> And of course we're also missing HackEgo. Perhaps I should dig out my half-finished "it's just like HackEgo except it runs arbitrary Z80 code w/ custom syscalls in place of a x86 Linux" bot out of storage. I'm sure people would rather be writing Z80 assembly snippets instead of shell scripts when they want to add a feature.
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10:54:43 <oerjan> fizzie: well zzo38 might.
10:56:28 <impomatic_> Unfortunately all of the settings, etc are local webpages so I can't access any :-(
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11:00:06 <boily> chrome died and you can't open it again?
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11:36:22 <oerjan> hm tmux is working, irssi is working, but the other subwindows are going haywire.
11:36:57 <oerjan> oh ^C fixed the shell one.
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14:00:09 <b_jonas> the esolang wiki webpage has a stub now
14:00:25 <fizzie> I thought people would get confused without.
14:02:44 <fizzie> I made it a 307 Temporary Redirect in the hopes of not messing up Google-crawling or such, though I don't know if that actually helps.
14:04:25 <fizzie> Perhaps it should return a 503 Service Unavailable with that page as the error content, but I'm not sure how to convince lighttpd about that.
14:04:45 <fizzie> It'd be semantically more correct, though.
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14:15:50 <b_jonas> fizzie: make it a cgi that prints "Status: 503 Service Whatever" in the header part?
14:16:01 <b_jonas> I don't do lighttpd, so I'm not sure, sorry
14:16:32 <b_jonas> (Status is a pseudo-header used by CGI to ask the webserver to set the status code in the http response line)
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14:32:20 <elliott> fizzie: esolangs.org just goes to zem.fi for me now
14:32:22 <fizzie> Well, it seems to more or less work.
14:32:48 <fizzie> You may need to convince a browser to uncache or something. I was fiddling with it.
14:33:07 <fizzie> At least esolangs.org/somethingthatIdidnotyetvisit worked for me.
14:33:27 <fizzie> (I'm not sure how to "reload" something that the browser remembers as redirecting.)
14:33:56 <fizzie> Anyway, I have to be on my way, back in half an hour or so. ->
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15:11:39 <fizzie> Heh, during my fiddling and twiddling and tweaking, I managed to return to Googlebot's crawl requests for esolangs.org the following HTTP statuses: 200 (twice), 301 (16 times), 307 (237 times), 403 (once), 404 (350 times) and 503 (48 times).
15:11:50 <fizzie> Welp. I'm sure they're make sense of it all.
15:13:06 <elliott> it's crawling that frequently?
15:13:14 <fizzie> Once a minute, it would appear.
15:14:23 <fizzie> 17:06:48, 17:07:48, 17:08:21, 17:08:46, 17:08:47, 17:09:47, 17:10:49, 17:11:47, 17:12:47.
15:14:54 <fizzie> For the following pages: YABC, Lambdastack, PATH, Talk:Pointy, Squishy2K, Clsuterfuck, User:Shubshub, Fishing, Spaghetti.
15:15:06 <fizzie> They're big esolangs enthusiasts there at Google.
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15:21:08 <oerjan> so we're going to be ungooglable for a while too, you say.
15:22:32 <b_jonas> oerjan: no, google will notice the server is down temporarily only
15:22:52 <oerjan> not if fizzie keeps confusing them completely
15:23:51 <b_jonas> apparently my webserver has got tcp through http tunnel requests. maybe someone was scanning for open proxies or something.
15:24:25 <b_jonas> that was apparently freenode's proxy scanner
15:24:46 <b_jonas> it used to do only a http request for some particular page iirc
15:25:36 <fizzie> Here's one vulnerable-webapp probe for esolangs.org today: http://sprunge.us/EGKU
15:27:41 <ion> We heard you like redundancy, so we put a verb into the URL so you can GET while you GET.
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15:38:06 <ion> GET GetFolders
15:38:10 <ion> /fckeditor/editor
15:38:16 <ion> /connectors/asp/connector.asp
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16:03:44 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Here's one vulnerable-webapp probe for esolangs.org today: http://sprunge.us/EGKU <-- whatever web app that is, it is not very REST
16:04:07 <Vorpal> Also it seems uncertain about the language used by the server
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17:16:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's some (quasi-popular) WYSIWYG text editor component that has different "connectors" for different server-side stuff, I guess whoever's probing for it just wants to be portable.
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17:41:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, what happened with the site?
17:43:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://members.cloudatcost.com/index.php?fuse=admin&view=Announcements&ann_id=29 happened
17:43:37 <fizzie> Oh, I see they claim that everything is fine now.
17:43:56 <fizzie> "If your server is down please ensure your support ticket has the proper package selected."
17:44:12 <fizzie> I'm thinking Gregor should probably see if something can be done, then.
17:44:18 <elliott> (what is fiber channel locking????)
17:44:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I was about to ask too
17:44:55 <fizzie> As far as I could figure out, it's some sort of configuration-change synchronization thing for FC setups.
17:45:01 <fizzie> But it sounded very strange.
17:45:12 <fizzie> Since it doesn't sound like the sort of thing that would need to happen often.
17:46:29 <fizzie> "Hey @cloudatcost how's that downtime going? My server's been down 8+ days now (along with a ton of other people). You're terrible."
17:47:27 <Vorpal> Is it possible to change Debian's alternatives on a per-user basis?
17:47:53 <fizzie> Anyway, I don't have access to the cloudatcost side of things, so I can only wait and see.
17:48:22 <fizzie> And I don't think so, since it's just based on updating symlinks, AFAIK.
17:48:59 <Vorpal> I wonder what will happen if I change default from openjdk6 to openjdk7 though
17:49:44 <fizzie> Heh, /etc/alternatives is full of SQL keywords.
17:49:58 <fizzie> (PostgreSQL man pages.)
17:50:52 <Vorpal> I guess I need to update java, javac and so on then :/
17:51:19 <Vorpal> Yeah there is a lot of java ones
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17:55:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, by the way, did you get the link to the Bastedalen garden photo? I think I @tell'd it at one point.
17:56:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes I recognize it
17:56:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that their restaurant?
17:56:58 <fizzie> No, that's in Stockholm.
17:57:08 <fizzie> http://www.berns.se/en/restaurant/berns-asiatiska/
17:57:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm... https://secure.flickr.com/photos/fizzief/14413809416/in/set-72157644793637880/ Örebro right?
17:57:52 <fizzie> It's Linköping, actually.
17:58:03 <fizzie> But based on a quick Google, it looks quite similar.
17:58:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, also I have been to both places
17:58:26 <Vorpal> I think the Linköping one is larger though
17:58:34 <Vorpal> But hard to tell that from the picture
17:58:56 <fizzie> Right. There's also a photo of an arch over the river in Linköping, couldn't really find a name for it.
17:59:29 <fizzie> Nothing I'd care to put in Flickr; this is kind of a best-of set. Wasn't carrying a tripod. I'm sure I did some handheld things, though.
17:59:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is a nice military aircraft museum in Linköping if you are into that sort of thing
18:00:00 <fizzie> Some meerkat enthusiast had favourited one of the Kolmården meerkat photos.
18:00:43 <Vorpal> Been many years since I last visited Kolmården
18:00:53 <fizzie> There's a similar best-of set from Japan in the Flickr account, there's a hotel-room-window panorama there from Kyoto.
18:00:59 <fizzie> https://secure.flickr.com/photos/fizzief/sets/72157644562714080/
18:01:14 <Vorpal> I think I havbe seen that one before
18:01:48 <fizzie> Well, they're earlier than the Sweden ones, I may have advertised.
18:01:58 <Vorpal> Ever considered using hugin for architectural correction? Thinking of https://secure.flickr.com/photos/fizzief/14141632609/in/set-72157644562714080 for example
18:02:20 <Vorpal> Lets you avoid the "leaning back" effect if you want to
18:02:27 <fizzie> I did test that out on a photo of one of the university buildings.
18:03:48 <Vorpal> Hm anyone used the Sublime text editor? Not open source, but pretty nice I have to say after playing around with it for a while.
18:04:42 <fizzie> Some former university acquaintances swear by it.
18:04:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140717-img_3682-3687.jpg is a handheld panorama from Pihlajasaari, one of the islands near Helsinki.
18:05:03 <Vorpal> I have some colleagues who do the same
18:05:27 <Vorpal> I can see that the project management/workspace aspect of it is pretty nice.
18:05:53 <fizzie> (Rightmost image seems to be a bit tilted, but I can't be bothered to go fix.)
18:06:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, just wish I had a monitor that could display it in all it's glory. A two monitor setup of mixed monitor types is hardly ideal for this
18:06:26 <Vorpal> Yeah the monitors don't even properly line up
18:06:58 <fizzie> Neither do mine. They're both 1200 pixels tall, but the other is 2 cm taller physically speaking.
18:07:57 <Vorpal> Yeah I have a 1920x1200 and a 1680x1050. The former IPS the latter TN
18:08:41 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140717-img_3240-3245.jpg -- there's one more hotel-room-view one, that's from the Linköping hotel.
18:10:05 <fizzie> The palm trees were a bit incongruous.
18:10:28 <fizzie> I assume they move them off in the winter.
18:10:56 <fizzie> Also speaking of photography, I made a thing the other week: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:387442
18:11:12 <Vorpal> Nice, you have a 3D printer?
18:11:20 <fizzie> No, I printed it at the local library.
18:11:27 <Vorpal> Oh, that is a cool service
18:12:14 <fizzie> They have three (or four, but one was broken) of these Finnish-design http://www.minifactory.fi/ printers, I'm sure they've gotten them cheap for free advertising.
18:12:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have been traveling but I didn't take any photos really. Was too busy with other stuff.
18:12:29 <fizzie> But it's still nice. They don't even charge anything.
18:12:37 <Vorpal> Also didn't have any camera apart from my phone with me
18:12:45 <Vorpal> And the Galaxy S3 camera isn't that great
18:13:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, not even material?
18:14:21 <fizzie> Well, you know, the printers are so slow; they've probably just decided that even with 100% utilization (during the library's opening hours) the material costs won't be all that much.
18:15:03 <fizzie> I'm sure it's some amount of euros/day, but I guess they have a larger budget than that.
18:16:15 <fizzie> My printout took 8 hours (the entire day, pretty much) and based on some random MakerBot PLA filament retail prices, it probably cost somewhere between $1 and $10 in materials.
18:16:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway I'm leaving for a couple of days starting tomorrow. Going to a relative with a summer house out in the middle of the woods. But I don't see myself taking much photos.
18:17:25 <fizzie> No impressive landmarks?-)
18:17:30 <Vorpal> I have been taking less photos over all recently. Been more about experiencing the place in the moment instead of concentrating on photographing
18:17:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm going to go out by boat too, don't want to get my camera wet
18:18:20 <Vorpal> Which will be a first for me
18:18:30 <Vorpal> (Not the covered kind though)
18:18:52 <Vorpal> A canadian canoe I believe
18:19:07 <fizzie> Two canoeists just died off the Helsinki coast. Uh, not to be negative or anything.
18:19:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I will be in a lake, not a big one either
18:19:37 <Vorpal> Also I can swim quite well. I plan on doing that as well
18:19:53 <Vorpal> The weather should be really nice there
18:21:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, and no I don't think there are many landmarks around. Just lots and lots of forest.
18:21:17 <fizzie> That describes most of Finland, too.
18:21:20 <Vorpal> Which is really nice and restful. But not good for photos
18:22:49 <Vorpal> I might as well bring the camera though. Since I'm going by car this time
18:23:05 <Vorpal> (last time I traveled I went by airplane and really didn't have space for anything extra)
18:24:06 <Vorpal> Where the hell is the charger for the camera though!?
18:25:50 <Vorpal> It has a non-standard battery so...
18:26:44 <fizzie> They all are non-standard.
18:27:02 <fizzie> Though I think compact cameras have started to do micro-USB charging recently.
18:27:39 <fizzie> (Charging using the camera itself, I mean.)
18:28:02 <Vorpal> My camera is way too old for that
18:28:49 <fizzie> I was looking at the AC adapter for my camera (just out of curiosity), and Canon charges something like a hundred euros for it.
18:29:15 <fizzie> It's just a connector in a piece of plastic shaped like the battery, and a transformer brick.
18:30:23 <fizzie> http://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/ac-adapter-kit-ack-e6 "You Pay: $153.00 -- Was: $180.00 -- You Save: $27.00" wow, what a steal
18:40:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is annoying is that the place I found the charger in I looked at a couple of times before when searching and thought "nah, it probably isn't there, and I would have to bend down to really look"
18:42:17 <fizzie> On the other hand, if you hadn't thought that, it wouldn't have been there.
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20:33:00 <Phantom_Hoover> were all these things on the one server or was this part of some sort of strange anti-esolang campaign
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20:34:22 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: i worship these guys, i have fnord sme photos, but i
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20:57:43 <FireFly> Can't have #esoteric without fungot
20:57:43 <fungot> FireFly: ' greatest' party!! i voted for badnarik, heh.
21:01:04 <olsner> fungot: I think you could've voted for yourself if you wanted to
21:01:04 <fungot> olsner: gah i meant " gregorr tries to decide how best to make the code less readable, wouldn't you? :) i'm targetting at a game engine
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22:01:09 <Taneb> Do lines 4-13 of https://gist.github.com/Taneb/8ff2b97774736ab43856 make me a bad person?
22:03:59 <Bicyclidine> I estimate that about four protein complexes, from say your liver, will have to spend 10^18 years in Avīci for that.
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22:05:11 <metasepia> In Buddhism, or Avichi, is the lowest Level of the Naraka or "hell" realm, into which the dead who have committed grave misdeeds may be reborn. It is said to be a cube 20,000 yojanas to a side, buried deep underneath the earth. Av+ci is often translated into English as "interminable" or "incessant", due to the idea that those beings which have been sent there languish there eternally. The other hells function more like Purgatory, where after perhaps
22:05:17 <Bicyclidine> Scaling a bit, we could say ten liver cells become hungry ghosts, or your enteric nervous system stubs its toe once.
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22:07:23 <boily> Taneb: fyi, I have no idea how that code makes you bad hth
22:08:02 <Taneb> I'm not convinced it's portable.
22:09:54 <elliott> it depends on endianness for one thing
22:10:03 <elliott> plus that struct would need to be packed
22:10:29 <FireFly> Packed structs is a gcc extension, no?
22:11:06 <FireFly> oh, I guess it's more common than that..
22:11:14 <Bicyclidine> may have to upgrade to like, twelve proteins in avīci, then. sorry taneb
22:11:16 <elliott> doing unportable things requires unportable things, yeah
22:12:46 <boily> I want to `addquote, but the lack of HackEgo is beginning to seriously misalign my chakras.
22:13:19 <elliott> not the things I said I hope
22:14:54 <Taneb> HackEgo, the wiki, where is everything going
22:15:56 <boily> elliott: I could, but I like Bike's protein count ^^
22:16:25 <boily> Taneb: I think they are being reincarnated. watch out for exotic frogs with unusual behaviours.
22:25:34 <Taneb> elliott, do you have any suggestions towards making a more portable version?
22:25:56 <elliott> Taneb: yeah: define a struct and conversion functions
22:26:16 <elliott> it's not much more work and it's easier to understand and it's portable
22:28:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: one, because there can be padding between the struct elements
22:28:29 <elliott> two, because there are two ways to interpret a uint16_t as two uint8_ts -- i.e. endianness
22:28:43 <elliott> three, probably some more C standards lawyer detail I'm forgetting
22:32:30 <elliott> SPARC may or may not be dead.
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22:50:05 <fizzie> The whole concept of "read a different member of a union than the one that was last written to" is only (barely) legal due to a footnote, and that in a late (C99?) standard. And even with the footnote, some people argue against it from the perspective of the strict-aliasing rules.
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22:55:38 <fizzie> I guess it's sort of useless to try to get that said right now.
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22:56:56 <fizzie> I'll try to get my standard quotes through again, maybe it'll break again.
22:57:15 <fizzie> As I was saying, the footnote kinda-sorta allowing it is C11 footnote 95: "If the member used to read the contents of a union object is not the same as the member last used to store a value in the object, the appropriate part of the object representation of the value is reinterpreted as an object representation in the new type as described in 6.2.6 (a process sometimes called ``type ...
22:57:21 <fizzie> ... punning''). This might be a trap representation."
22:57:21 <fizzie> And others argue that (esp. as a non-normative footnote) that still doesn't invalidate the strict-aliasing rules of C11 6.5p7: "An object shall have its stored value accessed only by an lvalue expression that has one of the following types:88) [a rather restrictive list] Footnote 88) The intent of this list is to specify those circumstances in which an object may or may not be aliased."
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22:58:14 <fizzie> The restrictive list does include character types, but uint8_t need not be one, even if it probably usually is.
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23:01:08 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, seeing #haskell with <300 people was scary
23:01:28 <fizzie> [01:56:16] -!- Irssi: #esoteric: Total of 2 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 2 normal]
23:01:34 <Phantom_Hoover> i felt a terrible responsibility settle on my shoulders
23:03:45 <elliott> Taneb: seeing #haskell is scary
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01:44:15 <madbr> most numbers are really weird
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01:48:32 <shachaf> Taneb: most numbers are unnameable hth
01:48:55 <shachaf> now i feel like that was the joke :'(
01:51:02 <madbr> taneb : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specker_sequence
01:53:15 <Taneb> I think 3 is quite a weird number
01:53:19 <Taneb> It's the first odd prime
01:53:41 <madbr> most numbers are way weirder than that
01:55:07 <madbr> like, a reasonable number is something like a computable number - you can ask a program to give you the value within a certain precision (like, say, a pi calculator where you ask for N digits) and it runs in a finite amount of time
01:56:19 <madbr> since there are countably infinitely many programs, there are countably many computable numbers. which means that they are infinitely more un-computable numbers (since the real numbers are countably infinite)
01:56:28 <Taneb> But I'd say all numbers are weird
01:57:17 <madbr> what about numbers in a ring, are those less weird?
01:57:22 <Bike> what about 1148? i think 1148 is pretty average
01:57:37 <Bike> works hard, drinks with his mates
01:58:54 <Taneb> madbr, natural numbers in a group, what's a group to a ring, what's a ring to a field?
01:59:04 <Taneb> What's a field to an art historian?
02:01:01 <madbr> something to encrypt his data and error-correct his CDs?
02:14:57 <zzo38> I try to think of what more questions to add into the "Quiz of Many zzo38's Questions"? I have actually added some already, but it doesn't have enough questions yet.
02:27:36 <zzo38> If you say about numbers, you should say if you mean natural numbers, real numbers, complex numbers, etc
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02:32:13 <Taneb> The world is a scary place right now :(
02:33:03 <Bike> most of it is minerals.
02:35:08 <madbr> at least communism isn't really a thing anymore
02:35:53 <madbr> taneb: https://twitter.com/Plane_Talking/status/489843455192227840
02:36:23 <Taneb> madbr, I was more referring to the shit going down in Gaza
02:36:41 <madbr> that's the other one
02:37:03 <madbr> and the third one is the white house suspect package shutdown thing
02:37:28 <Taneb> Haven't heard that
02:39:14 <Bike> they found something weird on a white house lawn, did usual security things in response
02:39:37 <elliott> it was probably communists
02:52:03 <Taneb> Ugh, it's suddenly almost 5 am
02:52:06 <Taneb> Bed is a mile away
02:53:03 <newsham_> luckily tomorrow is a week long so you have time to get there
02:54:31 <Taneb> newsham_, I have essentially no commitments until the end of September so I could in theory just stay here
02:55:27 <Taneb> WHICH IS ONLY AN HOUR AWAY FROM FIVE AM
02:55:41 <Taneb> Hmm, if I wait an hour I can catch the sunrise
02:56:19 <newsham_> the way the morning broke was quite unusual...
03:01:45 <Taneb> That feels like the first half of a quote
03:05:17 <newsham_> hmm.. odd.. android apps will be able to run in chromeos soon
03:06:17 <zzo38> I now have eighteen questions in this quiz file. See if you can answer them or at least to guess.
03:06:54 <shachaf> zzo38: I guess "Yes" on all of them.
03:07:14 <zzo38> shachaf: Sorry, you got all of the questions wrong.
03:07:50 <shachaf> whoa, whoa, whoa, we were supposed to get them right too?
03:08:10 <zzo38> You should try to read the questions at first. And then, yes, to try to get them right too.
03:08:25 <shachaf> How can I read the questions?
03:08:31 <shachaf> I don't want to use gopher.
03:10:21 <zzo38> Then wait a minute
03:17:16 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/TeXX
03:17:22 <zzo38> There are the questions!
03:17:43 <Taneb> Oh no, I've reached morning twilight
03:17:58 <Taneb> And I'm still sat here in a university computer lab doing a whole lot of nothing
03:21:48 <zzo38> shachaf: Do you like these kind of questions? "Yes" isn't even one of the choices!!!
03:22:02 <zzo38> ("No" also isn't even one of the choices!!!)
03:22:08 <shachaf> zzo38: Can I use a reference to answer them?
03:22:35 <zzo38> shachaf: That is kind of like cheating, so try first to do it without a reference.
03:22:55 <shachaf> Too late, I already looked up the answer to one of the questions.
03:23:03 <shachaf> But let me simulate a version of myself that didn't look it up.
03:23:08 <zzo38> And then revise it with a reference afterward if you prefer, but I would like to see your first guesses too.
03:23:34 <shachaf> What, I can't even refer to earlier questions in the same quiz?
03:24:16 <zzo38> The computer is supposed to ask you one at a time, but since it is like this, you can print out and refer to the same quiz if you want to, even though it isn't designed that way at first.
03:25:27 <zzo38> If you want, send me your answers in the private; I can tell you how many is correct. Make it public too if you want to, but perhaps you shouldn't in case other people want to try it independently instead.
03:27:01 <zzo38> But I would like to see your initial decisions and opinions too!
03:30:43 <zzo38> For the questions that you don't know, try to make a good guess, I suppose.
03:32:11 <shachaf> please add "How do you make a slow horse fast?"
03:32:15 * Taneb --> watching the sunrise
03:32:19 <shachaf> i'd like to see the options for that question
03:32:48 <zzo38> Well, I don't know!
03:34:02 <zzo38> I think it is, if they won't eat then it is fasting
03:34:50 <zzo38> What are your answers in this quiz so far though?
03:45:28 <Taneb> This campus seems to have been designed specifically to prevent people watching the sunlight
03:53:38 <zzo38> If I have a Commodore 64 program which consists of 256 bytes to load starting at $500 and the rest to load starting at $D00, how to convert that into a disk image?
03:54:28 <Vorpal> <fizzie> The whole concept of "read a different member of a union than the one that was last written to" is only (barely) legal due to a footnote, and that in a late (C99?) standard. And even with the footnote, some people argue against it from the perspective of the strict-aliasing rules.
03:54:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, The issue is that it can be very useful, and I don't really know a good alternative in C
03:54:55 <Vorpal> C++ has reinterpret_cast of course
03:54:59 <zzo38> Vorpal: I think the GNU C compiler documentation says that it is specifically allowed.
03:55:38 <Vorpal> zzo38, oh yes, GCC allows it. So does Clang. But from a standard perspective it is definitely a murky area
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04:03:13 <elliott> Vorpal: memcpy through char* is allowed, right?
04:04:38 <Bike> having to call out to the library just to look at some bytes in a new light seems like kind of a bummer
04:04:41 <elliott> T x = ...; U y; char c[sizeof x]; memcpy(c, (char *) &x, sizeof x); memcpy((char *) &y, c, sizeof x); or something at least
04:04:48 <elliott> Bike: well, you can implement memcpy yourself
04:04:58 <elliott> I suppose memcpy((char *) &y, (char *) &x, sizeof x) should be okay too
04:05:29 <elliott> for (int i = 0; i < sizeof x; i++) ((char *)&y)[i] = ((char *)&x)[i]; if you want to avoid memcpy I guess
04:05:57 <Bike> and that works for whatever types x and y are?
04:06:58 <Bike> well, i don't care really, i shouldn't talk about these things so far outside my future experience
04:12:02 <elliott> you're allowed to view any object through (char *)
04:12:19 <elliott> otherwise how would you write memcpy?
04:12:27 <elliott> it takes two pointers to anything (void *) and copies
04:12:36 <elliott> it does this by casting the pointers to (char *) internally
04:12:42 <elliott> so that it can copy the objects byte-by-byte, whatever they are
04:37:53 <^v> <CTCP>VERSION<CTCP>
04:37:53 <idris-bot> <CTCP>VERSION SimpleIRC v0.3<CTCP>
04:38:03 <^v> +C this channel or i kill everyone
04:38:20 <^v> so many irssi users :o
04:38:49 <^v> shachaf, ;-; sowee
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04:40:44 <^v> Shubshub, i can read your mind
04:40:48 <^v> you are using.....
04:41:24 <zzo38> Yes it is in the username too
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04:42:02 <^v> zzo38, wtf?
04:42:03 <^v> * Ping reply from zzo38: 1405608507.670 second(s)
04:43:06 <shachaf> ^v: what are you doing here
04:43:29 <^v> shachaf, typing
04:44:00 -!- shachaf has left.
04:44:58 <zzo38> Can you type fast?
04:46:52 <^v> define fast because i type faster than everyone i know
04:57:00 <quintopia> take one of those typing speed tests
05:06:01 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: memcpy through char* is allowed, right? <-- Hm true
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05:06:58 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess it could be less optimised than a simple union conversion though. GCC probably would optimise it, but still, for some implementations it might involve a function call
05:07:06 <shachaf> Taneb: are you the person that i talked to about categories in here a while ago or was it someone else
05:07:17 <zzo38> Are you allowed to read object as a different type if both types are volatile?
05:07:19 <madbr> oh man the strict aliasing stuff
05:07:20 <Taneb> It may have been me
05:07:24 <Taneb> In fact, I think it was
05:07:42 <madbr> volatile I'm not sure guarantees much safety at all
05:07:57 <Vorpal> zzo38, I don't think volatile changes that stuff at all
05:08:10 <madbr> it's almost a comment by now
05:08:32 <shachaf> Taneb: i don't remember what you do and don't know so it's hard to figure out what to recommend
05:08:36 <madbr> how does gcc deal with pointer aliasing anyways?
05:08:41 <Vorpal> madbr, well, I used it for stuff aliasing hardware registers when programming on bare metal
05:08:53 <madbr> yeah that's the one place I've seen it
05:09:16 <Taneb> shachaf, I'm between 1st and 2nd year at university doing maths and computer science
05:09:18 <madbr> though doing that probably takes a memory barrier on x86 by now
05:09:23 <Vorpal> madbr, I have also seen it in multi-threading context, for use with stuff like compare and exchange and so on
05:09:40 <madbr> Vorpal : for multithreading you shouldn't use volatile I think
05:09:46 <madbr> you should use mutexes
05:09:59 <Vorpal> madbr, I said for compare and exchange, locked such
05:10:10 <Taneb> Anyway I ought to get some sleep just in case anyone comes round.
05:10:39 <Vorpal> madbr, you know LOCK CMPXCHG16 and similar instructions on x86
05:10:48 <madbr> msvc lets you interpret volatile in multiple ways o_O
05:11:29 <shachaf> Taneb: that doesn't help much
05:11:44 <madbr> "The volatile keyword in C++11 ISO Standard code is to be used only for hardware access; do not use it for inter-thread communication."
05:11:56 <Taneb> shachaf, I don't get much in the way of options until third year
05:12:15 <madbr> I'm pretty sure there's no guarantee that volatile compares into a cmpxchg
05:12:21 <Taneb> I have a vague interest in functional programming, mostly because of this channel
05:12:36 <madbr> tbh applications where mutex isn't the solution are rare
05:12:40 <Vorpal> madbr, hm. The location I saw it used for threading stuff was in legacy Windows C++ code iirc
05:12:40 <Taneb> And I like group theory?
05:13:05 <Vorpal> madbr, as in years and years of old stuff in the massive code base
05:13:20 <zzo38> I think volatile read/writes should be used to mean that volatile reads/writes can be neither reordered nor optimized out, so it is then considered similar to like an external subroutine call.
05:13:41 <Taneb> And I'm also pretty terrible at, like, life and stuff
05:13:41 <Vorpal> madbr, Anyway I used non-mutex syncronization, but then I work on real-time control systems
05:14:07 <Vorpal> Sometimes just notifying a thread about something using a mutex is too much overhead
05:14:09 <zzo38> I have never used multithreading except for audio with SDL
05:14:26 <Taneb> And I also am not here any more
05:14:38 <zzo38> In the case of SDL there are function calls for the case of locking and unlocking the audio thread.
05:14:42 <madbr> I do audio code so it's about the same thing, multithreading for audio
05:15:35 <madbr> some people avoid all memory allocation and mutexes when dealing with audio threads
05:15:46 <madbr> because they have to work at low latencies
05:16:56 <Vorpal> madbr, oh yeah memory allocations can be quite annoying, at least I'm not working on a low-power real-time system. We are basically using Pentiums.
05:17:15 <Vorpal> Why should we need to?
05:17:15 <Vorpal> Power is not an issue when you have a 1000 V three-phase AC connection driving the equipment anyway
05:17:56 <madbr> was just assuming ARM since they're the popular embedded arch of the day
05:18:11 <Vorpal> madbr, I believe there are some plans on using ARM in the future though
05:18:53 <Vorpal> But for now it is all x86, about 1 GHz, 512 MB RAM. Really rugged industrial PCs basically. With CAN and all that jazz.
05:20:19 <madbr> audio is like all floating point and sorta number-crunchy, but also real-time and kinda video game-like
05:20:21 <Vorpal> madbr, Someone told me that the only way to get more rugged is to get hardware intended for space. I mean we have to deal with some really bad environments... Humid +50 C with salt water running over the stuff. As well as -50 C in Siberia above ground
05:21:10 <madbr> what's the latency that it has to respond at?
05:22:00 <Vorpal> We have IO read/write cycles times of 40 ms to 80 ms depending on the product. That is what drives most stuff in the system.
05:22:11 <madbr> pro audio often uses 96 sample buffers. at 44.1khz, that's 2ms
05:22:23 <Vorpal> Yeah, you don't have to do quite so many things though
05:22:30 <zzo38> I don't like ARM though
05:23:00 <zzo38> I think past the first version is too complicated, like x86 also is past the first few versions
05:23:06 <Vorpal> madbr, we have to (depending on product again) calculate how to move an articulated robot arm, drive around obstacles and so on.
05:23:16 <madbr> zzo38 : that's like every cpu
05:24:07 <madbr> zzo38 : once you add an MMU and an FPU (ie make it actually useful) they all turn into sprawling architectures
05:25:21 <madbr> not to mention a 64bit version
05:25:36 <madbr> or a simd instruction set or two
05:25:42 <Vorpal> madbr, also: fuck hydraulics. It is just annoying
05:26:06 <madbr> can you kill someone if your code explodes?
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05:27:01 <Vorpal> madbr, well, we do have heartbeats that will close down all IO if it is skipped and so on. But yes in theory a bug could have some really bad consequences.
05:27:13 <zzo38> It can be done without MMU and FPU
05:27:42 <madbr> zzo38 : without an MMU you're ok if you're doing, like, a nintendo DS or something like that
05:28:05 <Vorpal> madbr, There are of course physical emergency stop circuits and so on that won't fail, but still, there could be some danger yes.
05:28:13 <madbr> once you have multitasking, that is over and you need an MMU
05:28:48 <madbr> Vorpal : still kinda cool
05:29:10 <madbr> like everything that isn't java enterprise servers and the like :o
05:29:14 <Vorpal> madbr, I think there is probably more safety features than on a car. I never seen an emergency stop button for all the computers in a car!
05:29:39 <Vorpal> madbr, Well it is C++. And boost to some extent. Fuck boost.
05:29:56 <madbr> yeah vaguely heard about boost
05:30:23 <madbr> "oh shit once you add once small piece you have the whole shebang and it compiles super slow"
05:30:52 <Vorpal> madbr, it is the link times that kill it. We are switching platforms to Linux currently. The old RTOS only supported static linking.
05:30:58 <madbr> Vorpal : does QT do the job ok?
05:31:31 <madbr> the one I've used was java's swing and it's kindof horrible
05:31:42 <madbr> like, it's superficially okay
05:32:06 <madbr> and I'm sure for enterprise software that nobody cares if it works sorta wonky, it's fine
05:32:30 <madbr> but like none of its gui components are the real thing and they all work subtly wrong
05:33:17 <zzo38> You can make task switching in other ways too which are done by software; depending on the system it might be workable, although this is only for saving tasks rather than having multiples at once in an easy way, unless you run them on separate CPUs.
05:33:39 <Vorpal> madbr, anyway compile and link times on Linux are so much better than the old RTOS. We had Windows CE for some modules, that really unknown RTOS for some other. All built using MSVC 2005. That was slow to compile, even when distributed over the network.
05:33:39 <madbr> if you're trying to do a tight productivity app it's not going to work out ok if you use swing and will probably end up overriding everything
05:33:39 <zzo38> I think is good idea to have separate processors for separate tasks.
05:34:39 <madbr> zzo38 : MMUs give you virtual memory basically
05:34:46 <Vorpal> zzo38, what, you mean running one thread per CPU?
05:35:00 <madbr> and also they generally prevent memory fragmentation
05:35:21 <Vorpal> ps aux indicates my system is running 316 processes. And god knows how many thread.
05:35:26 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes it is what I mean
05:35:29 <Vorpal> I would love having 316 cores...
05:35:59 <zzo38> madbr: Yes, but I am meaning you would do it without virtual memory, so you don't use MMU
05:36:24 <madbr> and then when you run out of ram, instead of just going slow, everything crashes?
05:36:32 <Vorpal> zzo38, that seems stupid. Virtual memory helps isolate processes, limiting the scope of errors
05:36:37 <zzo38> Then your system is too complicated; Windows and Linux system get too complicated.
05:36:44 <zzo38> madbr: Any new programs won't start!
05:36:58 <madbr> zzo38 : what about allready running programs
05:37:11 <madbr> malloc will fail and they will explode
05:38:03 <Vorpal> Hm, virtual memory does not imply swap though.
05:38:21 <Vorpal> Swap requires it yes, at least as commonly implemented
05:39:00 <Vorpal> But I think we are mixing up "virtual memory", "swap" and "over committing" here.
05:39:06 <madbr> it's like, if you're doing a non-multithreading platform
05:39:12 <madbr> like an embedded ap
05:39:21 <madbr> or a Gameboy advance
05:39:27 <Vorpal> madbr, embedded systems are probably multi-threaded
05:39:45 <madbr> well, some really low level kind of system probably without an OS
05:39:54 <madbr> then you don't need an MMU
05:40:05 <Vorpal> Yeah I guess all the controllers for dish-washers and so on
05:40:29 <zzo38> I would want to do it without OS; just the BIOS is used.
05:40:51 <Vorpal> zzo38, BIOS? You are kidding me. An embedded SOC doesn't have a BIOS
05:41:11 <madbr> yeah I'm not sure BIOSes make that much sense anymore
05:41:16 <zzo38> It is then up to an individual program if it supports other programs it can call in the same memory.
05:41:27 <zzo38> madbr: I think it does and is important.
05:41:33 <Vorpal> You don't have anything on a SOC except the instruction set and some special addresses or such that will control the GPIO states
05:41:41 <madbr> like, it needs to get the system to boot, yes
05:41:59 <Vorpal> madbr, a SOC doesn't have a BIOS to boot it...
05:42:25 <Vorpal> It just has an entry point into the executable NOR flash. And it is probably a Harvard architecture
05:42:26 <madbr> Vorpal : true but it doesn't have to read the program off some mechanical drive :D
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05:42:51 <SchrodingersCat> 2 STRSTART 'H' 'E' 'L' 'L' 'O' ' ' 'W' 'O' 'R' 'L' 'D' '!' STREND 1 BEGIN 2 READCHAR OUTVAL 1 DROP END START !1 @ISINPUT WHILE END
05:43:02 <Vorpal> madbr, Btw, have I ever mentioned how boring Harvard architectures are?
05:43:19 <zzo38> madbr: The BIOS would be used for some hardware access too, and you don't need to use operating system, just BIOS.
05:43:26 <Vorpal> madbr, They pretty much prevent self-modifying code
05:43:55 <madbr> Vorpal : but to do a fast cpu you need a separate instruction and data cache
05:44:07 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes, although a Restricted Harvard can be useful if you want to be able to convert into other instruction sets; a plain Harvard won't, though, so it isn't so useful.
05:44:38 <zzo38> SchrodingersCat: Can you explain it better then?
05:45:02 <Vorpal> madbr, true, but at least it still supports self-modification to some extent. And loading new code into memory
05:45:15 <madbr> Vorpal : oh, right
05:45:21 <Vorpal> SchrodingersCat, what language is it?
05:45:47 <Vorpal> SchrodingersCat, some sort of stack based language?
05:46:09 <Vorpal> Reminds me a bit of Forth
05:46:29 <SchrodingersCat> a stack-oriented language that exists only in a few sheets of a small notebook
05:46:53 <madbr> zzo38 : anyhow, does it have multitasking?
05:48:33 <madbr> if it doesn't have multitasking, you can live without an MMU. if it has multitasking... you probably need an MMU or else you will cry
05:49:20 <madbr> like, windows 3.0 does it without (it runs on a 286 after all) but it's also well known for being a buggy POS
05:49:27 <zzo38> Restricted Harvard = a harvard architecture with the following restrictions: * You cannot set the program counter to arbitrary data; it has to be read from "program address registers" which are read from "program address memory" (or immediate operands) and no arithmetic is possible. * You cannot read/write program data; only execution is possible. Loading is only possible atomically to program code.
05:50:37 <zzo38> madbr: It doesn't have multitasking, although it has task saving (which is slower though). The software will have to implement its own multitasking if it requires it.
05:51:48 <madbr> you can live without an FPU
05:51:55 <madbr> after all ARM did it for years
05:52:28 <madbr> they are just incredibly nice to have
05:54:29 <madbr> take an architecture, add an MMU and a FPU
05:54:46 <madbr> what's the nicest you can make such an architecture?
05:55:13 <madbr> something like a MIPS
05:55:32 <madbr> that's not very much less complex than ARM
05:56:16 <zzo38> For task saving, well, it mean the BIOS can save the entire state of the system to disk, and then it is turned off, the file is copied to a new hard disk, placed in a new system with the same or more RAM/speed/etc, ensure its permissions are set to the same level as before, attach all the same peripherals and turn it on and load the system image and the program will just continue where it left off as if nothing unusual has ever happened.
05:56:52 <madbr> plus, once you start going out of order, all the architectures sorta become the same
05:57:34 <zzo38> I don't like out of order execution; it is a terrible idea. The compiler should make up the order, or the programmer if in assembly language.
05:58:24 <zzo38> I would have a supervisor and user mode; the user mode means that the top half of the address space is a mirror of the lower one instead of the actual top area, therefore the BIOS is protected in such a way. Any hardware accessible directly by user code is mapped in the low half.
05:59:12 <madbr> does it really need that if it's not multitasking?
05:59:25 <madbr> you're only running one program at the time
05:59:32 <madbr> it's not like you need to protect the OS
06:00:53 <madbr> out of order execution I'm not sure exactly how much speed difference it makes
06:01:22 <madbr> but I think it essentially exists because you don't know which memory accesses are going to be fast and fall in ca
06:01:41 <madbr> and which ones are going to miss and end up in slow RAM
06:01:59 <zzo38> Actually it does need to be protected. Therefore newer versions can emulate older versions precisely because the program cannot check. Also, the user with physical access can then program the BIOS to lie about whatever you want.
06:02:09 <madbr> and all the art of the pentium2 and its zillion descendents is to keep the processor going once you have a cache miss
06:02:17 <madbr> like hyperthreading
06:02:43 <madbr> which on paper is a stupid idea
06:02:47 <zzo38> madbr: It is why you should instead make programming the cache explicitly. Such thing also ensures the same timing and everything with newer versions of the system.
06:03:09 <madbr> and exists solely because if you have 2 threads on once core, you can swap in the other thread once you have a cache miss
06:04:33 <zzo38> Why can't you just use interrupts to time them instead?
06:05:09 <Vorpal> <madbr> like, windows 3.0 does it without (it runs on a 286 after all) but it's also well known for being a buggy POS
06:05:18 <Vorpal> Don't forget the classic Mac OS
06:05:43 <Vorpal> It was buggy too, and it did multi-tasking without using the MMU
06:05:56 <madbr> I'm not too familiar with that one
06:06:04 <madbr> didn't it have like... memory compacting :O
06:06:25 <Vorpal> You had handles and what not
06:06:43 <Vorpal> Cooperative multi-tasking too
06:07:50 <madbr> also no 320x200 and no hardware scrolling
06:07:57 <madbr> good luck making a game :(
06:08:09 <Vorpal> madbr, Anyway each program had a contiguous memory block. If they were awkwardly spaced, you could sometimes not start a program even if enough free memory existed
06:08:27 <Vorpal> My old iBook running classic MacOS used 800x600 for resolution
06:08:46 <Vorpal> And had an early ATI GPU
06:09:05 <madbr> that's much later no?
06:09:06 <Vorpal> 32 MB RAM (upgraded to a massive 64 MB!)
06:09:17 <madbr> like, the windows 95 of MACs :D
06:09:20 <Vorpal> madbr, that is about 2000. Remember those brightly coloured iMacs and such?
06:09:49 <Vorpal> madbr, this was the brightly coloured iBook
06:10:58 <Vorpal> madbr, it still didn't use the MMU that actually existed
06:11:18 <Vorpal> Backwards compatibility
06:11:41 <Vorpal> That thing can still run 68k programs through some sort of emulation layer built into the system
06:11:50 <Vorpal> That is programs from the Motorola age
06:12:14 <madbr> but then it can leave that in crazy land and use the mmu for actual ppc programs no?
06:12:26 <Vorpal> Well it could, but it doesn't
06:12:27 <madbr> kindof like how windows 9x handles DOS programs
06:24:07 <zzo38> I happen to like the 6502 so I still write programs for it. A lot of people still write programs for 6502, I expect.
06:26:17 <madbr> 6502 doesn't try to do multithreading
06:26:32 <madbr> except the 65816 on appleIIgs
06:26:40 <madbr> which is kinda scary tbh :D
06:26:49 <madbr> it looks like a low resolution version of mac os
06:29:23 <zzo38> I have used a Apple IIgs computer once, although without any GUI functions.
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06:41:34 <Vorpal> bbl, going out of town for a few days
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07:56:59 <zzo38> Is there a musical notation for the 1 to 32 undertone scale?
07:57:44 <b_jonas> the Magic 2015 rules update bulletin is out: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-2015-update-bulletin-2014-07-17
07:57:54 <b_jonas> it says conspire comes with a rules change too, not just a reminder text change
08:02:21 <shachaf> b_jonas: How did Angel of Fury work previously?
08:02:49 <shachaf> If you were the controller but not the owner, and it died, nothing would happen?
08:03:21 <b_jonas> shachaf: that card is strange, how can a Portal card have such an ability in first place?
08:03:30 <shachaf> A card can't ever go into a graveyard or library of someone other than its owner, right?
08:09:15 <shachaf> This game is too complicated.
08:15:01 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, and the rules are too klugy too and not very mathematically elegant.
08:15:44 <shachaf> How would you make a game with the same general benefits but with rules that are mathematically elegant?
08:16:23 <zzo38> I do have several ideas about such a variant of Magic: the Gathering actually.
08:19:05 <zzo38> One thing I would do is to remove the rules about auras that are also creatures being discarded. I would add back mana burn for strategic reasons. Card types would share subtypes, and none of them having special effects by default. The rule where tokens cease to exist out of play would be replaced with one dealing with initial state of objects. Rules for how different card types are played would differ. Many other things too.
08:21:00 <shachaf> That seems awfully specific.
08:22:04 <zzo38> I also don't like the rule where +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters remove each other, so that would also be removed.
08:22:29 <shachaf> Yes, that rule seems like a scow.
08:23:41 <shachaf> Especially with e.g. +0/+1 counters and -0/-1 counters not behaving the same way.
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08:24:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: that rule with +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters is very practical even if not nice
08:24:25 <b_jonas> if there's one rule I'd like to drop, it's the lost all targets spell fizzle rule.
08:24:36 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes I know, but you should just use two different colors
08:24:59 <shachaf> b_jonas: It's particularly annoying when that rule applies even for a spell that says "up to one target".
08:26:06 <b_jonas> and some rules, specifically the land type change rule, could be helped a great deal with reminder text: in particular I think it was a mistake to print Spreading Seas without a reminder text, as they should have known this from previous cards
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08:26:56 <b_jonas> notice 9th edition Sea's Claim that has two lines of reminder text for "Enchant land" but nothing about the "is and Island" magic
08:27:13 <b_jonas> at least it has a great piece of flavor text
08:30:49 <zzo38> I would instead use the following rules for playing a card from your hand: One rule simply gives all instants flash. One says how any card with a mana cost can be played onto the stack. One rule says how lands can also be played at particular types directly into play without paying their mana cost. Furthermore, when the top object of the stack resolves, it goes into play when it finishes resolving; if it didn't go anywhere, it is discarded.
08:32:28 <b_jonas> "gives all instants flash" is like that joke for giving all creatures without first strike the new ability "strike" so they can deal combat damage
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08:33:49 <shachaf> if a creature with first strike didn't deal combat damage in the first strike combat damage step, it deals damage in the main combat damage step
08:35:02 <shachaf> wait, maybe that wording isn't precisely true
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08:36:20 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, I think that's only the old rule
08:36:23 <b_jonas> haven't they changed that?
08:37:07 <b_jonas> is this about the case when the creature gains first strike after the first strike step, or when it gains nonzero power but always had first strike?
08:37:29 <shachaf> I thought about the second one after writing that.
08:37:59 <shachaf> The second one doesn't work, I think. I.e. if it gains nonzero power it still doesn't deal damage.
08:38:02 <b_jonas> that one hasn't changed, and I think it's correct, the creature should try to deal damage then
08:38:03 <zzo38> I also don't like the implementation of planeswalkers, or the name. The idea is OK, though.
08:38:25 <b_jonas> the first one used to be broken, in that case the creature did try to deal damage again, but I think this was fixed and doesn't anymore
08:38:53 <b_jonas> why? not because of "plainswalk" right?
08:39:31 <zzo38> It is because of confusion with "plainswalk".
08:41:47 <shachaf> b_jonas: You mean it used to be that if a creature gained nonzero power after the first combat damage step, it would deal damage in the second one?
08:42:07 <b_jonas> shachaf: I think so, but I'm not completely sure
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09:59:50 <oerjan> so we're basically waiting for Gregor to wake up and get things fixed?
10:01:24 <fizzie> It's also possible he's already complained to the cloud and they haven't fixed it.
10:01:25 <oerjan> his 4 day sleep-ins are a bit unnerving.
10:02:38 <oerjan> or he has complained, they've fixed it, and he just needs to reboot?
10:05:29 <fizzie> That's also a possibility.
10:06:45 <fizzie> Just think of all the lost esolangs.org revenue this downtime is causing. It is a shying crame.
10:09:02 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Crame
10:09:02 <lambdabot> Title: Camp Crame - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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10:28:04 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> and clog i guess <-- yes.
10:37:53 <oerjan> (it was from this channel hth)
10:41:53 <oerjan> <Taneb> And I'm still sat here in a university computer lab doing a whole lot of nothing <-- ah i remember those times.
10:42:26 <oerjan> warning: you may get a permanently damaged sleeping schedule.
10:46:02 <fizzie> Must've been during a split or something.
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10:52:52 * boily pokes Taneb in the sleep schedule
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14:09:23 <fizzie> Bah. The exported citation is saying "pages 1-4", and I can't be sure if it's for reals (sounds unlikely), or just some sort of a dummy entry.
14:09:57 <fizzie> PDF has no page numbers, and the ToC of the e-proceedings in ieeexplore doesn't have them either.
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14:17:34 <elliott> is cloudatcost still fucked?
14:18:17 <elliott> fizzie: can I, like, pay you to prepare a DigitalOcean server to be ready for it once you get the data off? :p
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14:28:23 <oerjan> elliott: it is _possible_ it's only still fucked because Gregor isn't around to reboot it.
14:28:55 <oerjan> (trying to keep some remaining belief in humanity here.)
14:29:05 <elliott> oerjan: yes, I am willing to throw some money at not having esolangs.org down for days because of an incompetent undercharging provider and an oversleeper again :P
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14:46:02 <fizzie> That's assuming quite a lot of my response times.
14:46:14 <b_jonas> maybe he's on a two week long vacatoin
14:46:20 <oerjan> elliott: you know your only real solution is to take it back hth
14:46:23 <b_jonas> (or a six week long one. I hear myths about such things.)
14:46:43 <elliott> fizzie: well, DO probably won't require the manual rebooting so much.
14:48:42 <oerjan> elliott: i know, but i also know you'll never be satisfied with anyone else's work >:)
14:49:01 <elliott> my secret is I no longer care that much :P
14:49:21 <elliott> well, one of my secrets. that would be a pretty lame only secret to have
14:49:45 <fizzie> One of my secrets is 1.
14:49:49 <fizzie> (It's a 1-bit secret.)
14:50:10 <oerjan> stop giving me `addquote withdrawals
14:52:03 <oerjan> also why am i not eating
14:55:45 <elliott> I ask myself that a lot too :/
14:56:57 <oerjan> the trick is, whenever you ask that, go get some food.
14:57:34 <fizzie> I don't know if an email to Erg Gor would help; maybe it's just a vacayshun from IRC.
15:00:03 * oerjan is reminded of the norwegian saying "å sulte ihjel ved brødboksen"
15:02:25 <oerjan> (stereotypically this happens to traditional men when their wives are away)
15:03:18 <oerjan> fizzie: just search at the nearest MLP convention hth
15:03:47 <fizzie> I still associate that to a multilayer perceptron first and foremost.
15:04:11 <oerjan> that's just a sign that you need to combine them somehow.
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15:06:15 <oerjan> i suppose it actually happened to kurt gödel.
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15:25:47 <oerjan> coppro: sorry, but HackEgo won't be back until Gregor finishes his 6 week (estimated) vacation.
15:27:00 <oerjan> (the estimate is murphy's law powered.)
15:28:55 <oerjan> despair, sackcloth and ashes, that sort of thing.
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15:40:50 <zzo38> I have a file on my computer which claims to be a Playstation emulator for GameBoy.
15:42:22 <zzo38> I am not sure that it is actually capable of anything other than saying it is loading the BIOS and then displaying an unknown opcode error.
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15:45:35 <fizzie> Is it for the original GameBoy?
15:47:20 <fizzie> Then it sounds very suspicious.
15:59:36 <zzo38> Possibly appending it to the stub, although I do not really expect that to work; for one thing it probably won't fit.
16:13:06 <FireFly> You should disassemble the 'emulator'
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17:51:41 <zzo38> Well, another thing I would do to improve Magic: the Gathering is, to make it to have first-class "entities". Entities include objects, players, units of mana (because of possible restrictions on their use), "disembodied" effects, and the state of the system as a whole. They also are given timestamps: the whole state is given the earliest timestamp, followed by the players in turn order.
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18:06:57 <zzo38> Can you tell a C program to include itself regardless of filename?
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18:21:16 <SchrodingersCat> 3 STRSTART 'H' 'E' 'L''L' 'O' ' ' 'W' 'O' 'R' 'L' 'D' STREND 2 SUBSTART 3 READCHAR OUTCHAR SUBEND 1 SUBSTART 3 ISCHAR SUBEND 0 SUBSTART 2 BRUN DROP 1 BRUN SUBEND START 1 RUN 0 BRWHILE DROP END
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19:05:06 <zzo38> SchrodingersCat: Not quite exactly yet
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19:09:24 <zzo38> Maybe you can explain a bit?
19:13:13 <SchrodingersCat> so far, there is a setup with a primary stack, multiple substacks, and multiple streams
19:17:17 <zzo38> Yes, I know that kind of stuff
19:17:45 <SchrodingersCat> some of those commands listed in the example are undefined variants of commands i have written down
19:21:35 <SchrodingersCat> lets say that variable 3, written as 3*, has value 6. 3*& would therefore be equal to 6
19:26:28 <SchrodingersCat> "if(3* == 4*) then run substack 5 else run substack 4" i think becomes: 3*& 4*& TEST 5! IF INVERT 6! IF DROP
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19:30:26 <^v> 𝕴 𝖘𝖍𝖔𝖚𝖑𝖉 𝖒𝖆𝖐𝖊 𝖆𝖓 𝖊𝖘𝖔𝖑𝖆𝖓𝖌 𝖜𝖍𝖊𝖗𝖊 𝖆𝖑𝖑 𝖛𝖆𝖗𝖎𝖆𝖇𝖑𝖊𝖘 𝖒𝖚𝖘𝖙 𝖇𝖊 𝖑𝖎𝖐𝖊 𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖘
19:30:59 <^v> http://i.imgur.com/sZkWXyF.png
19:32:58 <SchrodingersCat> can i paste the hello world program here in multi-line form?
19:35:58 <SchrodingersCat> 3 STRSTART 'H' 'E' 'L' 'L' 'O' ' ' 'W' 'O' 'R' 'L' 'D' STREND
19:37:30 <zzo38> OK now perhaps I can see.
19:37:49 <SchrodingersCat> The ISCHAR should be named something more like ISTHERE_CHAR
19:39:54 <SchrodingersCat> ERUN returns the next of the substack it just ran as it's return value, while RUN doesn't
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19:42:37 <SchrodingersCat> all whitespace is same. that's why i originally typed it in 1-line form
19:46:14 <SchrodingersCat> I can't have a language where the first word is "untitled"
19:49:22 <quintopia> just make the U stand for something else
19:49:36 <zzo38> SchrodingersCat: OK
19:51:26 <SchrodingersCat> and it's arduino version (the original intended target platform) would be A/USPL ?
19:52:40 <SchrodingersCat> i wanted to design a language that could be interpreted on an arduino uno
19:55:07 <SchrodingersCat> what do i develop on then: my linux shell server or my arduino?
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19:58:42 <SchrodingersCat> my arduino micro (technically a miniturized leonardo) has similar memory size to the uno but is a lot smaller
20:00:53 * SchrodingersCat should start by writing a rpn calculator onto the arduino micro
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20:10:59 <SchrodingersCat> the arduino uses a simplified version of c/c++ called wiring
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20:20:07 <zzo38> Do you like a tsume shogi?
20:21:21 <zzo38> Japanese chess problem
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20:32:24 <fizzie> I was under the impression that Wiring is pretty much regular C++ except with a different standard library and a fixed main function that calls the setup/loop functions.
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21:06:43 <elliott> fizzie: incidentally I think some people mirror the XML dumps, though those don't have account information
21:06:49 <elliott> (but they do have files and stuff)
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22:08:27 <Sgeo> help I'm looking at Python again
22:08:29 <Sgeo> Getting back into the old Python rut
22:10:01 <elliott> are you just doing this as performance art by now
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22:16:35 <fcrawl> Sgeo: what is your quest!!
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22:32:55 <fizzie> elliott: Do you know names?
22:33:26 <elliott> fizzie: I... used to? everyone is kind of blending together in my head.
22:33:29 <elliott> some german person was mirroring I think.
22:33:36 <elliott> oh, I can just look at my webserver logs.
22:35:19 <elliott> 209.116.191.130 is someone who is downloading both the zsync file and the gzipped file, but with a Java user agent?!
22:35:37 <elliott> looks like a dynamic IP though
22:35:47 <elliott> or, maybe zsync pretends to be Java...
22:36:05 <elliott> http://xmedeko.blogspot.be/2011/05/java-zsync.html okay...
22:36:38 <ion> What zsync file?
22:37:21 <elliott> what are you talking about
22:37:30 <elliott> fizzie: http://eso.mroman.ch/log2.txt http://eso.mroman.ch/wikidump/
22:37:52 <ion> “is downloading both the zsync file and the gzipped file” – what file is that?
22:38:13 <elliott> ion: esolang.xml.gz and esolang.xml.zsync
22:38:13 <ion> “svn” – just amazed at someone still using svn in 2011.
22:38:20 <ion> elliott: Ok, thanks
22:38:28 <elliott> nobody actually used zsync I think
22:38:52 <elliott> except these weird java user agents actually requested it so maybe someone used some random java implementation of zsync from 2011 for... whatever reason
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22:42:10 <Taneb> Sgeo, help so am I
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22:42:30 <Taneb> Worst thing is I'm not even any good at Python
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22:43:20 <elliott> fizzie: anyways it's not much of a solution, but it's at least easy to make a read-only view of the site with it for now
22:44:39 <elliott> come to think of it, in the worst case you could also restore the users table from the original database dump I sent you, but probably the old server is not actually lost forever.
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00:59:00 <elliott> mi aerodeslizador es lleno de anguilas
01:00:03 <elliott> No sé lo que estoy haciendo. Yo ni siquiera sé español
01:01:26 <Guest5662> bueno que importa jajaja, pero como estas escribiendo español si no sabes ?=-O
01:02:20 <elliott> https://translate.google.com/
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01:03:14 <Guest5662> pero quisieras hablar español conmigo??
01:03:25 <oerjan> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
01:04:45 <Guest5662> osea que no puedo estar en este grupo? :'(
01:06:01 <oerjan> Es posible, pero la mayoría de nosotros va a no entender si usted no habla Inglés.
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01:08:13 <Guest5662> es que todos los grupos estan en ingles :-/
01:09:57 <oerjan> Es difícil hacerlo, porque tenemos que copiar y pegar todo en el traductor de google y viceversa.
01:12:04 <oerjan> Estoy en Noruega. Otros de aquí son en su mayoría de América del Norte o Europa.
01:13:45 <oerjan> Realmente no hablo español, estoy utilizando Google ahora.
01:17:22 <oerjan> No mucho. También es muy tarde y yo debería ir a la cama.
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01:24:15 <Bike> http://xorshammer.com/2011/07/09/a-logical-interpretation-of-some-bits-of-topology/ neat.
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01:45:40 <elliott> Bike: have you seen http://paultaylor.eu/ASD/
01:45:52 <elliott> I hear weed is legal where you are so maybe you can even understand it
01:46:08 <Bike> they only opened a store like last week, it's dumb
01:46:15 <Bike> my dad was trying to sell t-shirts celebrating it
01:46:41 <Bike> this has a lot of italics. is it insane
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01:54:32 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/9404065
01:55:19 <Sgeo> Corrected version: http://codepad.org/Dt2Kssap
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03:11:03 <zzo38> A quiz predicts I am "84% Sitakaliist" (82 percentile).
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05:40:48 <zzo38> One commenter doesn't believe that arbitrary disjunctions of semi-decidable predicates is semidecidable. But, can't you run programs like: First run one step of the first program, and then run one step of the first two programs, and then run one step of the first three programs, and then run one step of the first four programs.
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06:07:41 <zzo38> copumpkin: I do not know what all of those things mean.
06:10:20 <copumpkin> oh, when you say arbitrary disjunctions, do you mean more than binary disjunctions?
06:10:35 <copumpkin> I just proved the binary case there, not sure if it works for infinite ones
06:11:20 <zzo38> The part "[doesn't] believe that arbitrary disjunctions of semi-decidable predicates is semidecidable" is a quotation.
06:19:54 <zzo38> So, it isn't me who meant something by it.
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08:47:46 <ion> shachaf: hachaf
08:49:00 <shachaf> so what do "puhu" and "puhun" mean
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08:57:58 <ion> “puhu” is a command to talk, “puhun” is “I talk” or “I am talking”.
08:58:06 <ion> puhua is the basic form.
08:58:37 <ion> “I don’t talk” or “I won’t talk”
08:58:51 <shachaf> where does the “I” come from
08:59:49 <shachaf> i guess that one isn't very hard
08:59:54 <fizzie> From the way "en" is inflected.
08:59:58 <ion> The -n inflection
09:00:04 <ion> In both cases
09:01:40 <fizzie> en puhu, et puhu, ei puhu; emme puhu, ette puhu, eivät puhu: (I) don't speak, (you, singular) don't speak, (he/she/it) doesn't speak; (we) don't speak, (you, plural) don't speak; (they) don't speak.
09:02:12 <fizzie> Or puhun, puhut, puhuu; puhumme, puhutte, puhuvat for the non-negated version.
09:02:26 <fizzie> You can SEE the PATTERNS.
09:02:39 <ion> IT’S FULL OF INFLECTIONS
09:03:41 <olsner> vowel harmony something?
09:03:42 <ion> ua is easier to say than uä, iä is kind of easier than ia
09:03:58 <fizzie> Sounds better. Usually it's from vowel harmony, but "ei" technically doesn't need it.
09:04:24 <fizzie> The groups are [aou] and [äöy], with [ei] being somewhat neutral.
09:04:58 <fizzie> But e.g. puhuvat (they speak) vs. hyppivät (they leap).
09:05:38 <fizzie> Perhaps more "jump" than "leap". Anyway.
09:05:57 <olsner> hyppi- is similar to the swedish word for jump (hoppa)
09:06:07 <shachaf> what's a good way to answer these sorts of questions without bugging people on irc
09:07:51 <fizzie> Get a net, come to Finland, catch a native Finnish speaker and keep it in your basement.
09:07:59 <fizzie> Just remember to give it some water and food.
09:08:29 <fizzie> Then perhaps some sort of a cage, I don't know.
09:09:03 <olsner> what size of cage should you get for a finn? what do they eat?
09:09:40 <fizzie> olsner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_cuisine
09:09:55 <fizzie> The famous Finnish cuisine.
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09:10:47 <fizzie> I don't suppose most people really think about which vowels there are and so on, since the right choice is almost always the one that "sounds right".
09:10:51 <shachaf> i have several finnish cuisines
09:11:12 <shachaf> and even more second cuisines
09:13:54 <olsner> if you wrote y as the vowel groups would be even more regular
09:15:43 <Melvar> To the best of my knowledge, the thing in Finnish is considered vowel harmony.
09:19:42 <shachaf> fizzie: hm are you volunteering
09:20:11 <shachaf> or is that not how nets work
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09:53:13 <shachaf> fizzie: how about "olet" vs. "olette"
09:54:41 <olsner> second person plural of some verb?
09:55:20 <olsner> *first vs second person
09:55:45 <olsner> eh, wrong again, I meant singular/plural
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10:06:16 <fizzie> "you (singular) are" vs. "you (plural) are".
10:07:22 <ion> sinä olet shachaf
10:07:25 <ion> te olette #esoteric
10:08:13 <myname> malagassy has two "we", one with the person you talk to and one without
10:08:15 <fizzie> With the personal pronouns (sinä, te) completely optional.
10:08:24 <shachaf> but "te" can also be a formal/polite version of "sinä"?
10:09:09 <fizzie> In a decline, I'd say.
10:09:23 <Melvar> myname: Practically everything south-east Asian does.
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10:12:45 <shachaf> hebrew has some of this pronoun-dropping thing
10:12:50 <ion> Did English have teitittely when thou/ye were distinct?
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11:00:25 <oerjan> olsner: your unicode is showing up as replacement character hth
11:02:42 <oerjan> i think this is the second time i've noticed this, except i'm not sure it was olsner the other time.
11:03:02 <oerjan> <olsner> if you wrote y as � the vowel groups would be even more regular
11:03:15 <shachaf> 02:13 <olsner> if you wrote y as ü the vowel groups would be even more regular
11:03:41 <shachaf> i bet it has to do with that weird irc encoding
11:03:45 <oerjan> because it shows up wrong in both codu and tunes.
11:04:05 <shachaf> which uses iso-8859-1 if everything in a line can be encoded that way
11:04:31 <shachaf> i think xchat does that by default?
11:04:35 <shachaf> apparently olsner's irc client is gnu sed
11:04:45 <oerjan> you'd think so, but manually changing the encoding of the log page did not help
11:05:12 <oerjan> let me check tunes for that
11:05:37 <oerjan> oh tunes has it "right"
11:05:56 <shachaf> olsner: fix your irc client hth
11:05:59 <oerjan> so codu has started replacing iso-8859-1 with unicode replacement characters.
11:07:44 <oerjan> it's like we're in the gregorcalypse
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11:10:34 <oerjan> hm the raw codu log also keeps the ü
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11:11:10 <oerjan> perhaps it's always been like this but i've only noticed since i started using the nicely formatted log version
11:12:01 <oerjan> yep, both .txt and -raw.txt have the ü
11:12:39 <olsner> does this ü work better?
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12:01:28 <FireFly> http://www.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/2b3tyx/computing_with_graphs/
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12:26:24 <olsner> is that, like, eodermdrome?
12:31:15 <FireFly> I don't know, I'm not familiar with Eodermdrome
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14:14:48 <fizzie> By which I mean a plain no.
14:15:24 <fizzie> It would help to get some sort of sign of life out of Gregor "idle for 5 days" Gregor.
14:15:44 <elliott> fizzie: how many bitcoins would it take for you to put that XML dump on a read-only mediawiki install and point esolangs.org at it?
14:16:13 <elliott> n.b. actual payment unlikely
14:17:43 <fizzie> I might do it for free tomorrow.
14:18:13 <fizzie> (Also I have a full mirror from April, I could use that.)
14:18:29 <elliott> that's some odd time discounting.
14:18:39 <elliott> fizzie: well, the XML dumps are actually rather complete
14:18:47 <elliott> they have all pages and files and revisions
14:19:08 <elliott> pretty much all you need on top of that is things like users and bans
14:19:14 <elliott> not sure if it tracks protection or not
14:19:53 <fizzie> I guess, but I don't know how to use them. But perhaps I could get the mirror-installation up and running, and then import the dump on top of that. If that is a thing that's done.
14:20:57 <elliott> no, GregorR = Gregor gRegor
14:21:05 <elliott> fizzie: you just set up MW and then upload it to Special:Import through a browser
14:21:16 <ion> newtype Gregor = Gregor Gregor
14:22:05 <elliott> copy MW, use the command-line installer thing, copy whatever backup of LocalSettings you have, put $wgReadOnly in there, import the pages, run the cache generation script (optional), done
14:22:18 <elliott> I guess you can import on top of a mirror, maybe
14:22:28 <elliott> you might want to clear out the pages/files tables first
14:22:45 <elliott> I sort of think having it be editable would be bad though, since all the edits would get lost whenever 'Regor wakes up.
14:23:19 <fizzie> Well. I'll attempt this tomorrow, or later today if I feel especially vigorous.
14:24:44 <elliott> thought: you could distribute PGP-encrypted daily database dumps so you can restore users etc. without any privacy risk in future :)
14:24:53 <elliott> not sure how big they'd be compressed, though
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14:40:13 <oerjan> Taneb: you have been followed up hth http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/
14:40:40 <oerjan> too bad he'll never know
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14:48:25 <Phantom_Hoover> we're actually only a month away from when the garfield [something that sounds like minus] garfield apocalypse would have been
14:49:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I've... forgotten what this is about
14:50:14 <oerjan> also, the people in the forum are planning a special for sromg 1978(?)-2014
14:50:59 <oerjan> (basically, have each comic be based on the anniversary garfield comic from that year)
14:51:07 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well they had a ton of strips on that formula until dmm put a stop to it by riffing on terminator 2
14:51:20 <boily> sromg? SCSI Read-only Oh My God?
14:51:31 <oerjan> square root of minus garfield
14:52:50 <elliott> scrotum renovation: only massive genitalia
14:53:14 <boily> for once, I am more scared of elliott than oerjan. today is going to be an interesting day...
14:53:39 <elliott> aw c'mon. I'm plenty scary!
14:54:16 <oerjan> anyway, sromg is going around nicely, dmm has a huge backlog of submissions which is growing.
14:54:54 <oerjan> mezzacotta itself is of course autogenerated, and as bad as ever.
14:55:08 <oerjan> lightning made of owls is barely hanging on.
14:55:35 <oerjan> awkward fumbles was essentially dead, but has had a couple recently.
14:56:28 <oerjan> elliott: http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=625
14:56:38 <elliott> making the one-trick pony markov comic the flagship of mezzacotta seems shortsighted in retrospect
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14:56:53 <oerjan> if you look at the titles in the archive before that day, you can see how bad the meme had got
14:57:02 <elliott> right, I do remember this.
14:58:31 <elliott> that strip is a masterpiece
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15:07:55 <oerjan> i calculate sromg 1928 will be on the prophesized date
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15:08:49 <oerjan> i assume dmm has long since queued comics beyond that.
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15:10:29 <oerjan> i am not sure whether to correct the misspelling or revel in it.
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16:41:46 <int-e> Variations on the "The world is constantly changing" Garfield strip.
16:43:17 <int-e> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=603 seems to be a particularly unfunny one to me
17:15:09 <newsham_> what is the most unfunny comic strip ever?
17:23:34 <Bike> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Br0FAXbIQAAyIjg.jpg:large now, now, there are many other contenders
17:25:55 <zzo38> Why don't you store raw logs as actual raw data instead of converting? Sometimes (but rarely) it is posting something which is neither ISO-8859-1 nor UTF-8. Someone once posted something using Russian encoding.
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19:08:51 <int-e> wow, wikipedia's page on CTCP is so incomplete
19:11:58 <int-e> zzo38: are you sure that the raw logs (on codu) are decoded in any way? they look pretty raw to me, with some prefix added on each line.
19:14:39 <elliott> they are filtered per channel
19:19:58 <zzo38> int-e: I don't know but it is something someone mentioned above.
19:20:22 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, although I think also ones that aren't filtered by channel are also available, it look like.
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19:21:41 <Sgeo> Ruby, you see something using .each and want your own objects to implement it, it's 'obvious' that you just define each for your own class. Python, you see for ... in ... and want to write your own that supports it, you need to check the documentation to see that you need to define __iter__
19:28:23 <shachaf> have we really gotten to this point, Sgeo
19:28:37 <shachaf> ruby vs. python, which one is more obvious
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20:21:43 <fizzie> Running importDump.php now.
20:22:10 <fizzie> Forgot to give the --report option, no idea how long it'll take.
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20:27:02 <fizzie> Well, based on a "select count(*) from revision;" in another terminal, it's importing at a blinding speed of 1 revision/second.
20:27:41 <fizzie> The dump has 32535 revisions in it.
20:28:01 <fizzie> So it'll be ready in just nine short hours.
20:28:17 <zzo38> What date is this dump from?
20:29:55 <fizzie> It's not very new, it's from April 21st. But it's only for a temporary read-only copy so that people have something to look at, while we're waiting to get the real one back up. (And only after that think about maybe moving it.)
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20:31:24 <elliott> the XML dump is from the last day the server was up, btw
20:32:23 <fizzie> You mean that is somewhere?
20:34:02 <fizzie> Because I haven't downloaded it, but if someone has, I could restore from that instead.
20:52:38 <zzo38> If I have a nine-bit value and want to convert so that the high four bits (one of which is in a separate register) are converted into the value that bit7 copies bit3, what is the fastest way to do that in a 6502 code without using up too much ROM/RAM space?
20:58:56 <zzo38> Currently I have the following twenty cycle code: LDX <PCHI LDA <PCMID LSR A LSR A LSR A LSR A LSR A ORA <PCDECOD,X Is there a better way?
21:10:36 <elliott> 23:37:29 <elliott> fizzie: http://eso.mroman.ch/log2.txt http://eso.mroman.ch/wikidump/
21:10:53 <fizzie> Well, did you also expect me to pay attention?
21:10:59 <elliott> I downloaded it but deleted it
21:11:36 <fizzie> For the record, the thing has restored 25 pages, at a speed of 0.01 pages/sec, 1.24 revs/sec.
21:12:09 <int-e> zzo38: does this work? LDA <PCHI; LSR A; LDA <PCMID; ROL A; ROL A; ROL A; ROL A; AND 0xF?
21:14:47 <zzo38> int-e: AND 0xF is clearly wrong.
21:15:23 <zzo38> Since, it clears the high bit.
21:15:34 <int-e> zzo38: I could not parse your specification and you did not give us the contents of the PCDECOD table
21:16:00 <zzo38> int-e: The contents are $00 followed by $88
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21:22:01 <int-e> and there is no ASR. inconvenient.
21:32:34 <int-e> zzo38: ok, I can't improve your code without going crazy with lookup tables (a 256 entries table for shifting to the right by 5 would do the trick, of course)
21:43:06 <zzo38> int-e: I know; I thought of that!
21:43:22 <zzo38> I also thought of using PHP and PLP somehow, but as it turns out that doesn't help either.
21:43:39 <zzo38> But I think someone else has finally told me an answer that is working OK.
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22:11:14 <fizzie> 530 (0.10 pages/sec 1.98 revs/sec) fast as molasses
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22:26:58 <Taneb> Is the statement "There are infinitely many rational numbers between any two different real numbers" true?
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22:44:39 <zzo38> Do you know if on a 6502 if the RTS instruction runs and the data popped from the stack is $FFFF, will the program continue at address zero?
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22:54:52 <nooodl> zzo38: i would assume so
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23:00:58 <Sgeo> "If two or more threads use the catch_warnings context manager at the same time, the behavior is undefined."
23:11:32 <oerjan> <zzo38> Why don't you store raw logs as actual raw data instead of converting? Sometimes (but rarely) it is posting something which is neither ISO-8859-1 nor UTF-8. Someone once posted something using Russian encoding. <-- they are, but the formatted version *usually* looks better to me, but it has this problem.
23:12:00 <zzo38> Then they should fix it so that when converting raw to formatted, it will correct it!
23:12:32 <zzo38> (This should probably be done both for formatted plaintext and for HTML.)
23:13:19 <oerjan> well the formatted plaintext doesn't do any conversion.
23:13:33 <oerjan> so i can change encoding in the browser for that.
23:14:47 <oerjan> but it has the problem with lines not wrapping in my browser, which is usually more irritating.
23:15:22 <oerjan> and we're currently waiting for a chance to get Gregor to fix _anything_.
23:15:54 <oerjan> at least he has a stable irc connection.
23:20:41 <fizzie> 1939 (0.20 pages/sec 2.47 revs/sec)
23:20:52 <fizzie> Perhaps tomorrow we shall have a read-only wiki.
23:25:23 <b_jonas> fizzie: great! then people will pester you to fix stuff in it by directly messing with the database, because normal edit won't yet work
23:27:27 <oerjan> i suspect that will not be a big problem.
23:28:21 <zzo38> Then you can discuss edits in the IRC, and since it is logged, then if any such edits do need to be made they can be made afterward.
23:31:37 <b_jonas> is there an esolang yet whose goal is to make it easier to write programs that edit the esolang wiki entry for that same language?
23:32:14 <b_jonas> possibly one that's restricted so editing that wiki entry is, in some way, the only thing programs in that language can do?
23:34:17 <Sgeo> Has anyone tried the K framework?
23:34:22 <Sgeo> I might start watching the tutorials
23:34:47 <Melvar> ( with Vect sequence [[1,2],[3,4]]
23:34:48 <idris-bot> [[1, 3], [2, 4]] : Vect 2 (Vect 2 Integer)
23:45:39 <oerjan> ff weather forecast going ballistic again
23:46:47 <zzo38> I have found that Infocom's Z-machine interpreter for Commodore 64 takes 30 cycles to read one byte from the PC; my own interpreter for Famicom takes only 19 cycles. This is what time it usually takes; it can be longer.
23:48:55 <zzo38> My program is 25 cycles in worse case; their program is over 70 cycles in worse case.
23:57:25 <nooodl> zzo38: how does input work
23:57:36 <nooodl> playing zork on a nes controller sounds painful
23:57:55 <zzo38> nooodl: It is using the keyboard.
23:58:15 <nooodl> oh right! that's a thing
23:58:19 <zzo38> The Famicom does have a keyboard, although it is not hardwired like the gamepads are.
00:03:04 <zzo38> I am probably not going to implement printing, since the Famicom does not even have a printer (although it may be possible to invent a printer protocol using the tape port, but nothing currently exists as far as I know). Not implementing output to printer would probably speed it up too.
00:10:12 <pikhq> There is actually a common-ish printer output format on Famiclones.
00:11:13 <zzo38> O, I didn't know that. What is it, and is it compatible with the Famicom keyboard?
00:11:31 <zzo38> Furthermore, do any emulators support this?
00:11:42 <pikhq> Actually, yes. Said Famiclones use (basically) the Famicom keyboard as well..
00:12:07 <zzo38> But what is the format?
00:12:09 <pikhq> Basicqally, a couple of parallel port lines are address mapped on the cartridge port, so that certain memory reads can be used to bit-bang LPT.
00:12:16 <pikhq> http://133fsb.wordpress.com/2010/03/21/famicom-compatible-printer-port-interface/
00:12:26 <pikhq> I don't know of any emulators that do it though.
00:13:48 <pikhq> Perhaps not the best way of doing it, but hey. It's actually in the wild.
00:14:21 <zzo38> Well, if it exists, it would make sense to use a compatible protocol, I suppose.
00:14:55 <pikhq> And it would be fairly simple to use the same mechanism in a more "legit" Famicom or NES cart.
00:15:14 <pikhq> As it only uses lines that are on the cartridge port, you could just have a weird cartridge with a parallel port on it.
00:17:21 <zzo38> Yes, I think that would work.
00:18:29 <zzo38> There are similar things existing too; the FDS cartridge has a serial port on it, and I have also heard of a cartridge with Christmas lights on it.
00:45:12 <Taneb> Sweet, that means the new marvel film in like 11 days
00:45:20 <Taneb> Also my house gets internet tomorrow!
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01:42:54 <Taneb> Random trivia: I live on (National Cycle) Route 66
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07:32:51 <zzo38> mciSendString "Set CDAudio Door Open", 0&, 0&, 0&: MsgBox "Error: Insert cup in cup holder and press any key."
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08:05:17 <zzo38> Do you know how to do the exact cycle emulation of a 6502 core (including unofficial opcodes)?
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08:13:57 <mroman> elliott: looks like the dump can't be downloaded anymore?
08:15:13 <mroman> and I only have a few days rotation
08:15:41 <mroman> I probably should change the script to not delete old files after there are only 3 files left :)
08:23:08 <mroman> I don't have any dumps anymore if that was the question
08:24:06 <mroman> which is weird, since the last error occured at 2014-07-18
08:24:31 <mroman> but I don't see any entries from 07-15, 07-16, 07-17
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08:34:21 <mroman> My svn mirror is also broken
08:34:28 <mroman> but it uses the voxelperfect thingy
08:34:33 <mroman> which is probably too old
08:36:35 <fizzie> Hrm. It restored all pages but the Main Page, and when I tried to restore that one manually, "A database query error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software."
08:44:30 <fizzie> Perhaps I'll try running update.php and hope it fixes the dattabase.
08:45:49 <fizzie> Oh, it would have been there in the history, too; just the new default main page was "on top" of it.
08:52:06 <fizzie> Okay, the new copy should be up, but it'll again take a whole lotta time for DNS changes to propagate. In the meanwhile, you could try http://fail.esolangs.org/
08:53:46 <impomatic_> I can't edit that read only version of the wiki. It keeps complaining and giving an error :-( "The database has been locked for maintenance, so you will not be able to save your edits right now"
08:56:39 <elliott> "I can't edit that read only version of the wiki" ...
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09:06:08 <fizzie> Unfortunately, the read-only version is read-only.
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09:19:38 <fizzie> "There are 2 registered users, but most of them are spambots."
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10:08:50 <TieSoul_> Thank you for the read-only version :P
10:10:48 <elliott> is esolangs.org meant to point there?
10:10:50 <elliott> because it doesn't, for me
10:16:40 <FireFly> "it'll again take a whole lotta time for theDNS changes to propagate"
10:18:32 <elliott> oh, I didn't see that it required a DNS change.
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10:20:25 <elliott> fizzie: you can regenerate recent changes
10:20:29 <elliott> there's a script in maintanence/ for it
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10:25:08 <mroman> Any native english speakers present at this moment?
10:27:26 * oerjan has been known to correct the english of native speakers on occasion, though.
10:28:10 * oerjan fails to remember whether he has corrected elliott, although probably, this is irc after all.
10:28:15 <mroman> "a walking shamefully man saw an under a grave burried dog"
10:28:21 <mroman> [ ] grammatical [ ] not grammatical
10:29:09 <mroman> or a shamefully walking man (should that be the problem)
10:29:16 <mroman> and it's supposed to be awful, but still grammatical
10:29:23 <elliott> original does not parse, correction parses
10:29:33 <elliott> it took me reading the correction to figure out what the first was meant to be
10:29:47 <elliott> or my guess would be something like "a walking ashamed man" which isn't quite the same (but mostly I'd be confused)
10:29:50 <fizzie> elliott: I ran it after the import, but perhaps running update.php re-messed it up.
10:29:56 <elliott> also "grave burried dog" isn't quite right either.
10:30:33 <fizzie> Oh, or possibly it's because of the 91-day $wgRCMaxAge.
10:31:18 <mroman> elliott: it's (under a grave burried) dog
10:31:24 <mroman> It's a dog that's burried under a grave
10:31:29 <mroman> at least, it's supposed to be that way :)
10:31:32 <elliott> okay, well, it's buried, but also that doesn't parse.
10:31:36 <elliott> grave-buried might, I guess
10:31:40 <elliott> it's a very weird thing to say
10:31:46 <TieSoul_> a shamefully walking man and a buried dog under a grave?
10:31:57 <elliott> I'd just say a buried dog, personally.
10:32:10 <oerjan> those weird and their grammar germans
10:32:24 <mroman> so english really doesn't allow to describe words that way
10:32:47 <TieSoul_> it would be really weird in English
10:33:01 <oerjan> mroman: it's just that english is head initial with less complicated descriptions than german is
10:33:11 <fizzie> I can't figure out how to make Special:RecentChanges show anything older than a month, and since the dump I imported is from way back, it's pretty much empty.
10:33:23 <mroman> I was under the impression that it's "unusual" but still grammatical
10:33:41 <elliott> mroman: your original sentence is definitely too messed up for me to class as valid
10:33:43 <TieSoul_> One thing: Multiple words usually can't be used to describe a verb (i. e. "a buried under a grave dog" is invalid)
10:33:45 <oerjan> mroman: what you need to do is to get a medium and ask a victorian
10:33:47 <fizzie> (Putting "days=180" in the URL does show changes, if you're curious as to where it stopped.)
10:33:53 <elliott> it sounds like google translate output
10:34:02 <elliott> TieSoul_: you can do "a buried-under-a-grave dog" though
10:34:28 <TieSoul_> hyphens solve all your problems
10:34:33 <mroman> which wouldn't make a difference when spoken
10:34:40 <mroman> because speech doesn't really have hyphens :D
10:34:44 <elliott> a walking-shamefully man saw a buried-under-a-grave dog
10:34:52 <elliott> that's... "valid", I guess
10:35:01 <elliott> I guess that's not valid, yeah.
10:35:13 <TieSoul_> I hit the enter key accidentally :P
10:35:15 <elliott> but compare "a dying-painfully man"?
10:35:21 <elliott> it's less awful than the original sentence.
10:36:04 <oerjan> a man walking shamefully saw a dog buried under a grave. head initial, i said!
10:36:05 <mroman> "a shawefully walking man saw a dog burried under a grave"
10:36:11 <mroman> that would be the not messed up version
10:36:33 <elliott> btw, "shamefully walking" is sitll pretty weird.
10:36:49 <mroman> it's walking in shame?
10:37:47 <mroman> maybe he dropped his fork
10:37:54 <TieSoul_> anyway, shamefully walking works
10:37:55 <mroman> and is now shamefully walking towards the door to leave the room?
10:38:37 <TieSoul_> and while walking towards the door he sees a video on the TV about a dog being buried? :P
10:38:44 <elliott> it's valid, it's just a weird thing to say. in general. the sentence.
10:38:48 <mroman> (because dropping the fork is really embarrasing in his country)
10:39:00 <oerjan> the sentence. it means nothing!
10:39:36 <oerjan> mroman: you just need to do like the finns and make it into a competitive sport hth
10:41:12 <shachaf> george bernard was walking shawefully
10:42:31 <mroman> I move we extend the severily limited english sentence structure
10:42:37 <oerjan> mroman: too bad with your seven years of bad luck
10:42:48 <mroman> with a german-ish sentence structure .
10:43:30 <mroman> it's 200% as efficient
10:43:33 <oerjan> i think that a very bad idea be would
10:45:26 <shachaf> fizzie: so what's with "oppia" becoming "opin"?
10:45:55 <oerjan> hm what's that called in english
10:46:27 <oerjan> anyway it's because -ppi- is an open syllable but -pin is a closed one
10:47:26 <shachaf> is this a special case of some general rule
10:47:31 <shachaf> you drop double letters in some cases?
10:48:30 <oerjan> but consonants have two different forms dependent on whether they are followed by a syllable ending in a vowel or a consonant.
10:49:00 <oerjan> sometimes one form is ""
10:49:01 <fizzie> See: consonant gradation.
10:49:21 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonant_gradation#Finnish explains it a little bit.
10:50:03 <fizzie> Or maybe the bit isn't all that little.
10:51:15 <fizzie> (But again, you don't need to think it through, because "oppin" just sounds wrong, while "opin" doesn't.)
10:53:42 <shachaf> how will i get a sense of what sounds wrong
10:54:07 <oerjan> just be born in finland hth
10:54:55 <fizzie> Also don't leave early like a coward but stick with it.
10:55:00 <oerjan> "Thus, not all weak grades occur in closed syllables, nor do all strong grades occur in open syllables." darn
10:55:17 <oerjan> shachaf: it's even _more_ complicated than i thought hth
10:57:38 <oerjan> my conclusion is that finnish somehow manages to be agglutinative but still a mess at the same time
10:59:23 <fizzie> oerjan: Well, you know, it would make things too easy for foreign devils if we just stuck on suffixes willy-nilly.
11:00:02 <shachaf> what words are good words to use as examples to try to put grammar together
11:00:11 <shachaf> without too many special cases and things
11:00:39 <shachaf> why is "to eat" apparently "syödä"; where does the "dä" come from
11:00:44 <fizzie> I was going to say "koira".
11:01:43 <oerjan> shachaf: search for "modern Finnish infinitive ending" in the article fizzie linked
11:02:13 <oerjan> it actually explains that with the similar word "juoda"
11:02:29 <fizzie> Alternatively, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_verb_conjugation#Infinitive_I
11:02:56 <fizzie> (It mentions "syödä".)
11:03:12 <oerjan> fizzie: ok but my link explains how it happened historically
11:04:32 <oerjan> i'd add a wisdom about koira if HackEgo were here :(
11:05:32 <shachaf> so the answer is "sometimes it's there for historical reasons"?
11:06:01 <oerjan> well _that_ is vowel harmony.
11:06:27 <oerjan> common to all uralic languages i think
11:06:58 <shachaf> so the idea is that all the weird vowels go together?
11:07:11 <fizzie> They're not weird, they're front vs. back.
11:07:29 <oerjan> except ie is counted as neutral.
11:08:00 <shachaf> they are foreign to my ears and mouth :'(
11:08:30 <shachaf> the ones that exist in french were foreign-ish in my 4th grade french class
11:09:02 <fizzie> Yes, and the harmony is normally determined by first syllable, except if that has only neutral vowesl, then later syllables can decide it too.
11:10:16 <shachaf> it would be easier if i had followed fizzie's net advice
11:11:32 <oerjan> shachaf: well if it can help, i have the opposite problem; i have trouble distinguishing all of english's vowels that seem to me like variations on "o".
11:12:15 <oerjan> the back rounded ones hth
11:12:54 <shachaf> is this a clever self-referential sentence where it's the pronunciation of "rounded" and "ones" which is problemantic
11:13:13 <shachaf> also i speak english with a noticeable accent so i'm no authority
11:13:19 <shachaf> i also speak hebrew with a noticeable accent
11:13:29 <shachaf> there is no language that i sound like a native speaker in anymore
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11:44:34 <Melvar> < mroman> with a german-ish sentence structure . – Good luck reintroducing cases.
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11:56:02 <ion> lambda cases
11:57:36 <ion> http://yle.fi/uutiset/finnair_admits_it_flies_over_ukraine_after_pr_blunder/7363384
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13:45:27 <mroman> Melvar: You don't need cases
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13:45:50 <mroman> I saw the given to the man bird.
13:45:53 <mroman> there. no cases required.
13:47:22 <oerjan> that's not german structure, the given is far too early
13:48:00 <mroman> I didn't say it has to be exactly like german
13:48:03 <Melvar> Oh, I expected a germanish structure to include shoving phrases around for focus.
13:48:23 <mroman> just adnominal phrases
13:48:39 <oerjan> the to the man given bird saw i
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13:49:23 * Melvar recalls “downgeloadet”.
13:49:33 <mroman> the under the bridge driving through truck had no problem eating the yesterday bought sandwich.
13:50:00 <Melvar> A truck eating a sandwich?
13:50:13 <mroman> I meant to say truck driver I guess
13:50:32 <oerjan> mroman crashed into the barn fell
13:50:59 <mroman> that's oddly ungrammatical
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13:52:09 <mroman> mroman crashed into the next to a church located whimsically built barn
13:52:16 <oerjan> mroman: i suggest googling "barn fell" hth
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13:52:47 <metasepia> ENVA 201320Z 16009KT 130V190 CAVOK 29/12 Q1018 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 17014KT
13:53:19 <mroman> the horse (raced past the barn) fell
13:53:19 <oerjan> i am wondering if i would i have been better turning the ventilation _off_ earlier today when it was still cool
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13:53:26 <mroman> your sentence structure sucks ;D
13:53:43 <oerjan> mroman: um it was a joke duh
13:53:46 <mroman> the past the barn raced horse fell
13:53:51 <mroman> that wouldn't have that problem ;)
13:54:13 <oerjan> mroman: you realize that sentence is constructed precisely to _have_ that problem
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14:02:07 <boily> my sanity. it is disappearing at an alarming rate.
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14:03:58 <mroman> I'm sure somebody wrote a book with only garden path sentences
14:04:57 <metasepia> CYUL 201300Z 16003KT 30SM SCT150 BKN180 BKN240 23/15 A3016 RMK AC4AC1CI1 SLP214 DENSITY ALT 700FT
14:05:07 <oerjan> boily: not because of heat, i take
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14:21:43 <boily> oerjan: because you guys are unusually grammatical today hth
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14:37:51 <metasepia> EFHK 201420Z 31006KT 9999 FEW040TCU BKN200 23/17 Q1018 NOSIG
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21:42:05 <b_jonas> oh, there's a readonly wiki now
21:45:38 <Taneb> b_jonas, I can't see it?
21:47:10 <zzo38> How to make an array of function pointers in a C program?
21:48:37 <elliott> zzo38: int (*foo[123])(int, char *) or something?
21:54:38 <fizzie> Taneb: You can try http://fail.esolangs.org/ if you still have the old address for plain esolangs.org somewhere in a DNS cache.
21:55:41 <fizzie> Also typedef int func(int, char *); func *foo[123]; may be more readable. (The "array of function pointers" isn't so bad, but the "function returning a pointer to function" is nastier.)
21:56:56 <fizzie> It's int (*foo(int))(char); for a function called "foo" that takes an int, and returns an int (*)(char).
22:05:25 <elliott> I find that easy to read now because I internalised declaration-follows-use :/
22:05:47 <zzo38> I do think typedef is probably more clear, too and is generally how I do it
22:06:20 <zzo38> Some of the syntax features in C for type specifications are a bit stupid.
22:06:59 <Taneb> I ought to actually learn C at some point
22:07:17 <zzo38> I started writing a program called "nanozil" which is compiling into Z-machine code and now you can write such thing as: [DEFINE GETP [[CUSTOM-VALUE 17 1 #$]]] is how a macro can be made up.
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23:25:30 <shachaf> how're the categories going
23:43:21 <boily> I think Taneb fell asleep in another chännel...
23:43:43 <oerjan> then combine them into the revolutionary language Crust
23:44:54 <Bike> eat a hot dog. like a real good one, grilled, with like, mustard and shit.
23:45:20 <oerjan> i don't think shit goes well with hot dogs Bike
23:45:44 <Bike> that's a disgusting thing to say, sir
23:46:49 <oerjan> i am sorry sir, but the disgustible matter was all in your original comment
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01:57:59 <zzo38> I may acquire RF Famicom pretty soon.
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04:07:37 <Sgeo> !qualiaofpurplelist
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05:54:27 <Sgeo> "Metaclasses in Python 1.5 - A.k.a. The Killer Joke"
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07:11:50 <zzo38> Is there a command to make glogbot to send a NS INFO request (and log the results)?
07:27:13 <zzo38> Actually, nevermind it isn't actually important I suppose???
07:34:53 <zzo38> Is there a way to create a public/private key pair such that I will not know the private key until a set amount of time has passed (and nobody knows the key before then)?
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08:06:56 <zzo38> Furthermore, is it possible to prove that such thing is the case?
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09:39:58 * impomatic_ wonders what this means "This channel is on clonebot autokline. You will be banned from freenode automatically if you stay. Please leave the channel right away"
09:41:39 <shachaf> It probably means what it says.
09:43:45 <fizzie> It probably means you'll get candy if you stick with the channel.
09:44:09 <fizzie> They're just trying to keep all the candy to themselves with the scary messages.
09:44:57 <shachaf> fizzie: shh, i'll get less candy this way :'(
09:45:17 <fizzie> Oh, you're one of them.
09:48:00 <b_jonas> but anyway, sure, freenode does have such trap channels
10:17:41 <impomatic_> I've been in the channel since Saturday and still haven't received candy :-(
10:18:32 <impomatic_> It's #commodore (the channel I intended to join is #c64)
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10:30:19 <ion> Spambot honeypot channels? A cool idea.
10:31:02 <ion> Let’s all join that channel to advertise the wiki.
10:33:12 <fizzie> I'm not sure the present moment is the best possible time to advertise it.
10:33:50 <fizzie> "#commodore" sounds like a rather uninspired name for a bot C&C channel.
10:33:57 <fizzie> Also vaguely familiar.
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14:34:35 <oerjan> > product [1..69] :: Int
14:39:41 <int-e> > product [1..63] :: Int == 2^63
14:39:42 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:27: Illegal literal in type (use DataKinds to enable): 2
14:39:50 <int-e> > (product [1..63] :: Int) == 2^63
14:40:31 <oerjan> someone on stack overflow was having overflow issues.
14:41:32 <oerjan> int-e: there aren't enough powers of 2 in the factors, i take.
14:42:20 <oerjan> > [product [1..n] | n <- [63::Int ..]]
14:42:21 <lambdabot> [1585267068834414592,-9223372036854775808,-9223372036854775808,0,0,0,0,0,0,0...
14:43:06 <oerjan> i guess you were close
14:43:12 <int-e> > product [1..63] `mod` 2^(31 + 15 + 7 + 3 + 1)
14:43:16 <int-e> > product [1..63] `mod` 2^(31 + 15 + 7 + 3 + 2)
14:43:50 <int-e> > (product [1..64] :: Int) == 2^63
14:44:15 <int-e> visualized it wrong. my bad.
14:45:14 <oerjan> well DON'T DO THAT AGAIN
14:45:51 <oerjan> i guess this is the same for every power of 2
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16:01:59 <ion> Twelve Tones by Vi Hart http://youtu.be/4niz8TfY794
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17:16:16 <newsham_> why all the stranvisnky hating?
17:18:14 <Bicyclidine> spreading rumors for the sake of publicity is a bit annoying
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17:26:46 <Phantom_Hoover> but who cares if a dead guy spread rumours for the sake of publicity??
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17:36:00 <quintopia> on the other hand, stravinsky wrote some awesome tunes and had some great artistic ideas
17:41:57 <ion> newsham: She told/will soon tell you.
17:46:00 <newsham_> ion: my curiosity outlived my attention span
17:46:29 <newsham_> stravinky is prob the greatest composer evar
17:46:54 <newsham_> definitely one of the most imortant and most influential
17:49:56 <ion> newsham: She added contrived Stravinsky hating so her work qualifies as commentary/criticism and thus Stravinsky’s grand-grand-grand-grand-grandchildren can’t sue her for copyright infringement.
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17:58:12 <ion> <newsham_> why all the stranvisnky hating?
17:59:25 <ion> Uh, one line above that message. :-P <ion> Twelve Tones by Vi Hart http://youtu.be/4niz8TfY794
18:07:43 <quintopia> it's a good video. tone rows are neat.
18:16:23 <myname> however, vihartvihart is strange stuf
18:16:30 <myname> except for the snail videos
18:17:15 <myname> http://youtu.be/UkSN-kqAmxw
18:18:05 <quintopia> yeah i don't get the microwave thing at all. i don't watch it
18:20:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what is even your beef with vi hart again
18:21:55 <Phantom_Hoover> it's... i think her presentation of maths as fun and aesthetic is a bit too shallow?
18:22:29 <Phantom_Hoover> one of her worst videos is where she tries to explain troll pi and concludes that it results in an 'infinitely jagged curve'
18:24:46 <Phantom_Hoover> the important and interesting part is that just because a series of curves converge to a circle doesn't mean their arc lengths do
18:25:00 <elliott> pop sci isn't completely rigorous and can be nitpicked, news at 11
18:25:47 <Phantom_Hoover> it's like... if you said that big objects and small objects fall at the same speed because big objects are denser or something?
18:26:38 <Bicyclidine> "infinitely jagged curve" doesn't sound far off from arc lengths being different
18:28:38 <Phantom_Hoover> well the infinitely jagged answer tells you that at the end you have a curve indistinguishable from a circle, except its arc length is 4
18:29:08 <Phantom_Hoover> whereas with the arc length one, at the end you have the actual unit circle with arc length 2pi
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18:29:42 <Phantom_Hoover> you're right though, they're not that far apart, which really makes it worse
18:32:01 <Taneb> Yesterday I had a maths panic
18:32:45 <Taneb> Because I forgot a detail about identifying critical points
18:33:59 <Phantom_Hoover> i had to use critical points this year and it felt weirdly dirty
18:34:47 <Phantom_Hoover> like i should've been using some brilliant analysis trick rather than filthy school calculus
18:39:18 <Bicyclidine> must be annoying being constrained by elegance concerns *randomly varies a bunch of parameters to see if that works #yolo*
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18:53:59 <Taneb> But yes, yesterday I panicked because I accidentally convinced myself that the minimum of y = x^4 wasn't a minimum
18:56:48 <Taneb> Which, you understand, is a terrifying thing to do to oneself
18:57:37 <Taneb> I got better, though
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19:06:37 <Taneb> Essentially, don't trust the second derivative test. Sometimes it is inconclusive.
19:09:26 <Phantom_Hoover> my maths teacher at school actually said that if the second derivative was 0 it was a point of inflection
19:28:27 <Bicyclidine> i forget, is that ever false for smooth functions? i guess probably
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22:38:24 <quintopia> boily venit, boily vidit, boily tacet erat
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22:47:03 <oerjan> *tacuit, or maybe *tacebat
22:48:42 * oerjan wonders how quintopia got that since google agrees with the tacuit.
22:49:53 <quintopia> i made it up from hazy memories of high school latin
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22:52:38 <quintopia> and i was actually looking for something more like silentium erat i think
22:54:10 <oerjan> tacita seems to apply to the thing not said, not the non-speaker
22:55:30 <oerjan> i guess "silentium erat" works
22:55:56 <quintopia> i wanted tacuavit (i can't figure out the compose sequence to put a macron on the a)
22:58:06 <oerjan> can't seem to find that on wiktionary
22:58:19 <quintopia> here you go: http://www.verbix.com/webverbix/go.php?T1=tacuo&Submit=Go&D1=9&H1=109
22:58:58 <oerjan> "The verb you entered does not exist in Verbix verb database. The conjugations may not be accurate."
22:59:43 <oerjan> i also searched for tacuo on wiktionary without finding it
23:01:23 * oerjan looks up tacito too, but it's only listed as a participle
23:02:03 <oerjan> in case you wanted the frequentative
23:03:16 <quintopia> google just retranslates it incorrectly as "is silent" rather than "was silent"
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00:12:10 <oerjan> hap-pi approximation day
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02:36:46 <amenghra> hi, i just finished writing an esolang. I'm wondering if anyone thinks it's crazy (i.e. good) or lame (i.e. i wasted my time). http://quaxio.com/ajsone/
02:37:27 <Bike> this looks way too sensible
02:39:06 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:XML-based_programming_languages
02:39:40 <amenghra> not sure those are all turing complete
02:40:09 <Bike> oh, here's the one i was thinking of http://www.o-xml.org/spec/langspec.html
02:40:54 <Bike> as you can see, you managed to make something about as good as this thing which somebody made seriously, and to explain it in just a page
02:41:33 <amenghra> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSXML
02:41:50 <amenghra> that one looks similar to my idea. Except json gives me less freedom than xml.
02:41:56 <Bike> «<callfunction name="showmessage" />» mein gott.
02:42:10 <amenghra> lol, I can't believe anyone would think that's a good idea!
02:42:18 <Bike> anyway i remember adding homoiconicity as long as you're jsoning
02:42:35 <Bike> recommend, not remember
02:42:46 <Bike> though really isn't all knowledge just rememberance of past lives, eh??
02:44:49 <amenghra> thanks for pointing out homoiconicity, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoiconicity is a great read :)
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08:57:06 <Taneb> My house has been connected to the internet :)
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09:37:23 <fizzie> IoH, the Internet of Houses; I hear it's a hot topic these days.
09:41:36 <Taneb> Is it bad that I get a real kick out of when I show someone a program I wrote and they reply "wtf is wrong with you"?
09:43:51 <int-e> sounds normal to me
09:44:13 <int-e> Then again I'm here on #esoteric, and so are you.
09:44:26 <Taneb> https://gist.github.com/Taneb/92c2273815931be07d97
09:47:22 <int-e> okay, playing with Church encodings on the level of gmp's C interface has not occurred to me before :P
09:47:40 * int-e is still half asleep
09:49:56 <olsner> Taneb: I get that kick too, much more satisfying than someone saying it's good code (which, of course, no-one ever says anyway)
09:50:07 <int-e> (at least the encoding is based on a sane pairing function, not on prime powers)
09:51:42 <Taneb> int-e, I'd only use prime powers if I wanted a multiset
09:51:50 <Taneb> Rather than a bintree
09:51:59 <b_jonas> internet of houses? is that like geocities?
09:52:01 <int-e> Taneb: you could use mpz_bin_ui though
09:52:48 <b_jonas> int-e: it's not just the sane pairing function that matters, but also that you encode a sane expression tree instead of some flat parenthisized list
09:52:49 <olsner> might be nice to rewrite that thing in like haskell (or any language that has actual bignum support) so that it's possible to read it
09:53:10 <Taneb> olsner, it's actually a translation from Haskell
09:54:06 <int-e> olsner: even libgmp++ helps
09:54:16 <Taneb> int-e, instead of computing the triangle numbers manually? That's a thought
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10:20:53 <int-e> @unlambda `` ``````s``s`ksk``skk``s``s`ksk`s``s`ksk``s``s`ksk``skk.3.5 ri
10:20:53 <lambdabot> 3333333333333333333333333333333333333333335
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10:31:10 <shachaf> Taneb: how's the category business
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10:40:25 <int-e> Taneb: it's funny how \n f. n (\x. f (z f x)) = S B (S B), where B = \x y z. x (y z).
10:44:33 <int-e> > iterate (\n -> n*(n+1)) 2 !! 2
10:47:16 <int-e> Taneb: sorry, the 'z' in there is supposed to be an 'n'.
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11:54:18 <fizzie> `olist (958) not that it will help any
12:00:46 <olsner> didn't help me, but I don't mind that
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16:49:25 <zzo38> Could you help to improve the tetx of my Dungeons&Dragons recording story?
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17:23:32 <zzo38> Someone recently thought that the templating language where loops involve SQL SELECT queries was just a dream. Well, it isn't; it is real.
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17:51:24 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes it is true.
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17:54:19 <zzo38> b_jonas: This one http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
17:56:16 <zzo38> Do you know this one?
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18:02:06 <zzo38> Now hopefully you do!
18:02:11 <zzo38> Do you play any Dungeons&Dragons game?
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18:09:32 <zzo38> Do you know anything about TeX? Do you know something about writing the story?
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18:14:26 <b_jonas> I know a little about TeX. not much.
18:14:39 <b_jonas> enough to know why it's great as an esolang
18:15:45 <zzo38> This file is printed using TeX, too, you can see how it works if you look, perhaps.
18:18:44 <zzo38> Do you like this story though?
18:20:15 <TieSoul> Is there any idea when the server will be up again?
18:21:39 <zzo38> Someone has once written a BASIC interpreter in TeX.
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18:26:26 <zzo38> I have also written a program in TeX for chess, and another program which can calculate when is Easter.
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18:27:09 <douglass_> I had to have LaTeX add two numbers together once...
18:28:15 <zzo38> douglass_: There is the \advance command to add a number in TeX.
18:29:36 <nooodl> "<quintopia> so tacuit is correct" <- i would say tacebat
18:34:39 <douglass_> it did eventually work; I don't recall which command I used. I just remember it being a pain in the ass to add one register to another as opposed to adding a fixed number to a single register.
18:41:34 <zzo38> It isn't; using \advance you can easily add one register to another.
18:44:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, but it may get worse if you insist on using the crazy abstractions in LaTeX
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18:45:44 <zzo38> b_jonas: Ah, OK, although I just use Plain TeX and don't need to worry about abstractions
18:46:30 <b_jonas> it's just that douglass_ mentioned LaTeX specifically
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18:47:31 <zzo38> Unless \advance is redefined you can probably still use it on normal \count registers at least
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19:32:42 <Phantom_Hoover> i wonder if golly has any decent reversible CAs built in
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19:51:28 <zzo38> Do regular expressions define all haltable NFAs?
19:54:49 <zzo38> I mean ones that are not guaranteed to not halt.
19:55:39 <Melvar> Don’t NFAs always halt?
19:56:37 <Bicyclidine> no, right, you could have a loop, it's just that you could determine that beforehand.
19:56:59 <zzo38> I think it can be possible to make an infinite loop that never want any input, or you can get an error (which doesn't count as halting), or have infinite input, etc
19:57:39 <Melvar> You can only have a non-consuming loop if you use ε-NFAs …?
19:58:32 <zzo38> The NFAs in this book allow one line to have a lambda on it to not consume input.
19:59:44 <Melvar> Then I guess that book has a definition of NFA that I don’t know, so I don’t think I can help.
20:00:31 <zzo38> It also describes DFA, which means that are no lambdas and furthermore that each possible input symbol has a unique successor state to each state.
20:02:57 <fizzie> The lambda is the same as the epsilon.
20:03:18 <olsner> I think you can do the normal NFA-to-DFA conversion even if there are epsilon transitions, basically merging all states reachable via epsilon transitions
20:03:42 <zzo38> Yes this book describe exactly how you do that, in fact.
20:03:45 <Melvar> Indeed. Any ε-NFA is convertible into an NFA is convertible into a DFA.
20:03:50 <olsner> which means they are regexps
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22:14:07 <oerjan> shachaf: fizzie already did that
22:14:23 <oerjan> well, i guess he didn't list the names
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22:17:46 <oerjan> <TieSoul> Is there any idea when the server will be up again? <-- possibly when Gregor stops being idle for > 8 days. of course no one has any idea when that happens.
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23:31:20 <oerjan> @check \x -> fromRational (toRational x) == (x :: Double)
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23:45:00 <elliott> > toRational (1/0::Double)
23:45:05 <elliott> > toRational (1/0::Double)
23:45:06 <lambdabot> 1797693134862315907729305190789024733617976978942306572734300811577326758055...
23:45:14 <elliott> > fromRational (toRational (1/0::Double))
23:45:51 <myname> so... infinity starts with 1?
23:48:33 <lambdabot> 1797693134862315907729305190789024733617976978942306572734300811577326758055...
23:49:16 <Bicyclidine> > from Rational (toRational (2^1024)::Double)
23:49:17 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘Rational’
23:49:21 <Bicyclidine> > fromRational (toRational (2^1024)::Double)
23:49:23 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘GHC.Real.Ratio GHC.Integer.Type.Integer’
23:49:23 <lambdabot> Actual type: GHC.Real.RationalCouldn't match type ‘GHC.Types.Double’
23:49:23 <lambdabot> with ‘GHC.Real.Ratio GHC.Integer.Type.Integer’
23:49:52 <oerjan> hint: the result of toRational isn't a Double hth
23:50:15 <Bicyclidine> > fromRational (toRational ((2^1024)::Double))
23:50:18 <elliott> oerjan: I need to fix that script, right?
23:50:43 <Bicyclidine> well, anyway i'm glad no programming language has figured out how to have numbers that aren't somehow mildly annoying yet.
23:50:50 <oerjan> elliott: put it's working perfectly hth
23:51:06 <elliott> Bicyclidine: scheme's numeric tower is okay? probably?
23:51:39 <Bicyclidine> well i mean, most of them are okay, since we use numbers all the time
23:51:49 <Bicyclidine> but then you look at the spec and it spends half the text on denoting floats
23:52:09 <Bicyclidine> i think the kernel guy complained about scheme's tower specifically but he complained about everything
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00:05:13 <quintopia> i have more outstanding projects than i can remember
00:06:03 <brrr> I only became aware of brainfuck last week :s
00:06:49 <quintopia> oerjan: nah we're not opposites. i'm not working on most of those things
00:07:02 <zzo38> brrr: Well, now you do! Have you written any program in brainfuck or any brainfuck interpreter by now?
00:07:37 <oerjan> quintopia: maybe you're one of those inside spots
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00:08:03 <brrr> zzo38: I haven't and I'm not sure I will lol
00:09:31 <brrr> but it's still fascinating nonetheless
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07:30:04 <zzo38> I should try to type more questions so that you can guess about the level20.tex even if you have not read it (or if you have, see if you can remember!)
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08:41:17 <shachaf> oerjan: it's far too hot here hth
08:49:13 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140723-gmap.png that's an interesting look for Google Maps.
08:49:30 <fizzie> I think it's showing me a glimpse of some sort of alternative reality.
08:51:46 <shachaf> fizzie: i discovered today that if i type "helsinki weather" into google it doesn't give me the answer
08:52:10 <shachaf> did this use to not be the case?
08:52:29 <shachaf> all the links i clicked on give me the answer in fahrenheit :'(
08:55:15 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever typed "helsinki weather" into Google.
08:56:03 <shachaf> i don't know other ways of finding out the weather anymore
08:56:36 <fizzie> I generally just type "for" in the address bar[*], and press enter to select the autocompleted http://www.foreca.fi/Finland/Espoo which stays on top of the list since I visit it so often. ([*] technically I think it's the "OmniBox")
08:56:54 <fizzie> Or possibly "out" for http://outside.aalto.fi/
08:57:15 <Taneb> I just go to weather.elec.york.ac.uk
08:57:59 <fizzie> Taneb: Heh, that's a Finnish weather station you folks have there.
08:58:17 <fizzie> Oh, it says so right in the infobox too.
08:58:43 <shachaf> that's p. detailed but most of the time the weather i am interested in is not in finland
08:59:16 <fizzie> Foreca does global weather, but it's probably not any better (or worse) than its competitors.
08:59:22 <fizzie> I just have a friend who worked there.
08:59:52 <fizzie> Loyalty and all that. Even though he left some years ago.
09:00:22 <fizzie> We used to have more "techy"-looking weather page from some lab or another, I don't know if it's still up.
09:01:31 <fizzie> From the Department of Radio Science and Engineering, I think.
09:04:06 <fizzie> Yes, there are still some references to it here and there, but it seems to have gotten lost during the latest university website revamp.
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14:59:09 <oerjan> @hoogle (m a, m b) -> m (a, b)
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15:43:50 <Taneb> @type uncurry $ liftA2 (,)
15:43:51 <lambdabot> Applicative f => (f a, f b) -> f (a, b)
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16:04:33 <b_jonas> you know, signals in Openttd are probably worth a mention on the esowiki: it's just like TeX in that it provides you primitives for what you usually want to do, but people always want to do more complicated things and they invent crazy ways to abuse those primitives to do things they weren't meant to do
16:07:12 <fizzie> I haven't heard anything from Reg Rorg.
16:07:24 <fizzie> [19:08:59] -!- idle : 9 days 17 hours 41 mins 0 secs [signon: Thu Jul 10 05:19:40 2014]
16:07:56 <fizzie> b_jonas: Did you see my OpenTTD thing?
16:08:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: no, what openttd thing?
16:08:35 <fizzie> b_jonas: http://zem.fi/2005-10-21-ttd-logic -- it's from way back in 2005.
16:08:46 <fizzie> There's a 4-bit adder in OpenTTD.
16:09:11 <fizzie> elliott: But that's so RUDE.
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16:15:26 <b_jonas> fizzie: hmm, those look like slow trains
16:15:48 <fizzie> Well, I'm not made out of money!
16:16:12 <fizzie> They also break down a lot.
16:16:18 <fizzie> Yeah, it's a bit silly.
16:16:46 <b_jonas> I wonder if this can be improved
16:17:27 <b_jonas> path signals don't generally seem to help this kind of complicated stuff much, but it might help; and maybe it can be improved without path signals too
16:17:35 <b_jonas> I'm not good in openttd signals
16:17:39 <fizzie> It is very likely. It's kind of a least-effort thing.
16:17:50 <fizzie> It probably predates "path signals"; at least I hadn't heard of them.
16:18:12 <fizzie> This was from 0.4.something.
16:18:23 <b_jonas> I don't understand some of the practical signal designs either
16:19:27 <b_jonas> http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals#Path_signals says path signals are new in 0.7
16:19:38 <b_jonas> I've used ottd 1.1 and 1.2
16:19:51 <b_jonas> I believe pre-signals come from ttdx
16:20:42 <fizzie> Yes. I needed a "new pathfinding" thing for those gates to work.
16:20:44 <b_jonas> yep, http://wiki.openttd.org/Comparison_of_OpenTTD_and_TTDPatch_features says pre-signals come from ttdpatch
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16:22:11 <b_jonas> yes, but new pathfinding is now old and obsolate, there's an even newer pathfinding
16:23:20 <b_jonas> it's usually better than every previous one
16:23:21 <fizzie> Heh. Is it actually called that?
16:24:14 <b_jonas> it's called YAPF for yet another pathfinder
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16:29:22 <b_jonas> for the record, openttd website is http://www.openttd.org , irc channel is on OFTC network #openttd
16:31:15 <zzo38> Some of the ways to "abuse" the primitives in TeX to do more complicated things are even described in the official documentation.
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16:34:46 <zzo38> I have managed to make TeX programs to sort an index, to parse algebraic chess notation, and to calculate when Easter is.
16:35:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: well sure, even with a whole appending for it, you can't expect Knuth to invent all the esoteric uses
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16:39:43 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, although the primitives in TeX are more than good enough.
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16:41:56 <b_jonas> someone had even submitted a solution in TeX for the mars rover ICFP contest, though there the real strange part is that I don't understand why they didn't use metapost instead -- maybe because metapost has only barely enough IO primitives
16:42:05 <b_jonas> he claimed he simple doesn't know metapost enough
16:42:58 <b_jonas> http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~sheard/2008IcfpContest/results/
16:44:24 <zzo38> Some people have implemented extensions to TeX to do such thing as multiple types of marks, but I have managed to do precisely that without any extensions whatsoever!
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16:45:12 <b_jonas> sure, there are lots of extensions to TeX, some of them even seem to come from a very reasonable need, such as better unicode support in the core or bidi writing
16:46:16 <zzo38> I prefer to just use the non-extended TeX; it does more than I need.
16:46:25 <b_jonas> similarly, metapost is sort of a big extension to metafont: it completely replaces the picture handling while leaving most of the other parts alone,
16:46:36 <zzo38> Use other extensions if you want but I don't want it.
16:47:28 <b_jonas> there's also plans to change metapost to replace the whole number computation part with mpfr bigfloats, but that might not have enough pull to get a release ever.
16:48:26 <b_jonas> which replaces the dvi writer part
16:48:28 <zzo38> I also explicitly do not want Unicode support in the core; I prefer the way it is handled by TeX fonts normally. And if UTF-8 decoding is wanted, well, it is possible to do that in the ordinary TeX.
16:48:49 <b_jonas> sure, LaTeX already does utf-8 decoding, mostly
16:49:08 <b_jonas> the decoding is not the hard part
16:49:18 <zzo38> Well, I want DVI output. I prefer DVI over PDF anyways.
16:49:34 <b_jonas> getting ordinary typesetting with hyphenation working properly when you have more than 256 characters is the hard part
16:50:35 <b_jonas> the automatic hyphenation engine just doesn't do that
16:50:54 <b_jonas> luckily, Vietnamese doesn't need hyphenation much
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16:51:57 <zzo38> Although I have written a program in TeX to decode UTF-8 (simply to show how it is possible), I am not using it since I prefer typing everything using the ASCII commands. Also the main document is written in languages that don't need that many characters (either that, or don't need hyphenation), and other parts of the document that aren't in such language, generally don't need to be hyphenated.
16:52:03 <b_jonas> but this still forces people to use multiple incompatible crazy font encoding sets, each of which try to fit as many relevant characters in the 256 limit as possible
16:52:50 <b_jonas> thus now we have the crazy T1 font encoding
16:53:23 <b_jonas> and incomprehensible box dumps of course
16:54:21 <zzo38> I don't really like T1 and stuff I prefer the format used by METAFONT; it is much better.
16:54:45 <zzo38> It doesn't matter that the encodings are incompatible because you can use TeX commands and control sequences and whatever.
16:54:55 <zzo38> It is simpler and far more sensible, I think.
16:55:09 <b_jonas> it's just a font encoding, not an input encoding
16:55:12 <zzo38> Also you can use characters which do not belong to Unicode.
16:55:13 <b_jonas> you don't enter text in it
16:56:07 <b_jonas> it's just that (a) 256 characters is just too short space which is why there are multiple different font encodings, and if you have text mixing two languages that don't fit in one text encoding, you're up against a very difficult task,
16:56:22 <b_jonas> and (b) incomprehensible box dumps in error messages
16:57:11 <b_jonas> as for characters that do not belong to unicode, well sure, in that case you'll have to find a private encoding for those characters
16:57:19 <zzo38> TFM and DVI and the GF and PK graphic formats do support up to 32-bit characters actually.
16:57:50 <b_jonas> it's the TeX core itself that's the problem
16:57:52 <zzo38> However, only the low 8-bits decide the metrics (and ligature/kerning), and TeX only will use 8-bits.
16:58:15 <zzo38> But because of how DVI works, you can easily write postprocessors for DVI that will do all sorts of fixing up on it!
16:58:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, plus there's ligatures and kerning and hyphenation
16:58:39 <b_jonas> which the TeX core itself must handle
16:59:30 <b_jonas> 256 characters turn out to be just barely enough in practice if enough magic is used
16:59:58 <zzo38> Yes, that is what I say it is enough.
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17:01:23 <zzo38> In the cases where it isn't, you won't generally need metrics, ligatures, hyphenation, etc anyways. For example Chinese. In such a case you could have a postprocessor to fix the DVI file. You may have some character codes with zero size and some with nonzero size, and the postprocessor then replaces the combination with 32-bit character codes having the same resulting nonzero size.
17:01:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: what limits characters in a font to at most 16 different heights and depth by the way? is it only the tex core, or also TFM?
17:02:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think an even bigger problem is text with mixed directionality though
17:02:45 <zzo38> Having to do with TFM format.
17:03:36 <b_jonas> "some character codes with zero size and some with nonzero size" sounds like a nice trick. that might work.
17:03:40 <b_jonas> it's still a workaround, but it might work
17:04:28 <zzo38> There are extensions for mixed directionality, but I think it would be confusing to line wrap right-to-left text in left-to-right documents anyways, and it is better to disable line wrapping inside of such reversed text.
17:04:32 <int-e> hmm, is Omega TeX any good? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_%28TeX%29
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17:06:11 <zzo38> I don't know, as I have not tried it, but I have no use for it.
17:06:16 <b_jonas> int-e: no idea. nor about XeTeX either. I don't really know how good all the other pimped up TeXs are, I only heared they exist, I never tried to learn how they work.
17:06:50 <zzo38> (I also thing it is probably not good enough even to use Unicode since it is only 16-bits)
17:07:41 <int-e> hmm, the link I gave says it's no longer being developed and points to luatex instead.
17:07:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: that doesn't really work out well. you need to be able to wrap opposite direction text, even if it is confusing and proper software _is_ hard to implement. just like how you need to wrap inline formulas too.
17:07:50 <b_jonas> typesetting is complicated.
17:08:10 <zzo38> b_jonas: I mean it is confusing to *read* too, not only to write.
17:08:22 <b_jonas> int-e: is XeTeX still developped? does it use unicode?
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17:08:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: it can be, if you as an author of the text do it wrong. and other text can be confusing to read too. the software is not enough.
17:09:28 <b_jonas> there's always burden on the author or typesetter professional too.
17:10:20 <zzo38> Well, such software exists as TeX-XeT and you can use if you like to, but I have no use for line wrapping embedded reversed text.
17:10:25 <int-e> b_jonas: the wikipedia looks like it's yes for both, though development is slow.
17:10:37 <b_jonas> it's called TeX-XeT, not XeTeX? or is that two different things?
17:10:47 <zzo38> b_jonas: Those are two different things.
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17:10:56 <int-e> (I'm using pdflatex myself but I don't really need Unicode)
17:11:05 <b_jonas> then there's of course lots of non-tex-derived software too
17:11:59 <zzo38> But I find the best typesetting software is TeX without extensions.
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17:13:26 <zzo38> (A postprocessor is useful however, in order to do such thing as combine pages, make use of full 32-bit character codes, make the file size smaller, expand virtual fonts, etc)
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18:17:31 <zzo38> I notice Z-machine documentation says: "The encoding algorithm used to create the string also specifies that whenever the current character to be encoded is not in the current permanent character set, the following character is examined. If there is a following character (i.e. not at end of string) and that character is in the same set as the current one, a permanent shift is used. Otherwise a temporary shift is used."
18:18:20 <zzo38> I assume this is from before they extended the FWORDS table to 96 entries, because this is no longer efficient, and Infocom clearly understood that as they have programmed their compilers to never use permanent shifts.
18:18:49 <zzo38> Furthermore, it isn't that simple: intervening spaces and fwords should be ignored when making such considerations.
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21:34:09 <zzo38> Who will help you to beat MEDIUM_SIZE_MONSTER in Super ASCII MZX Town? [a] Aaron Black [b] Aberration Hater [c] BIG_MONSTER [d] Dave [e] David [f] Dr.Gray [g] Monty Python [h] SMALL_MONSTER [i] The International Astronomical Conspiracy [j] The queen of heaven [k] The Spanish Inquisition [l] The spider [m] The talking tree [n] YHVH [o] (None of the above) [p] (Exactly four of the above)
21:37:54 <ais523_> I'm guessing [p], but I don't know the answer
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21:38:14 <zzo38> No! Try again please! ("Aaron Black" is my name, but that is not a character in the game so it doesn't count.)
21:38:22 <zzo38> ais523_: Which four do you expect?
21:38:41 <shachaf> zzo38: But will you help me to bear MEDIUM_SIZE_MONSTER in Super ASCII MZX Town?
21:38:47 <zzo38> (And [p] is wrong anyways.)
21:39:00 <ais523_> zzo38: I don't expect 4 in particular, but that seems to be around the number of options that seems likely to be correct
21:39:08 <zzo38> shachaf: No, you have to do it by yourself.
21:39:18 <zzo38> ais523_: Well, you are wrong.
21:39:35 <ais523_> that often happens when I guess
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21:40:01 <zzo38> ais523_: Yes it is to be expected consider there is many possible choices.
21:40:13 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, there is other characters in the game and other things in the game that can help with such thing, though.
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21:40:47 <shachaf> Yes, but I was counting on your help.
21:41:22 <zzo38> That's what I thought you would guess next, but wrong.
21:41:37 <zzo38> Try to make a "educated" guess rather than just at random.
21:42:05 <zzo38> Sometimes your first guess is wrong though, but it is OK, make a second and third guess, and earn second and third points.
21:43:28 <ais523_> actually, the question is ambiguous
21:43:44 <ais523_> is it about which of those entities would be helpful in the fight, if they joined in? or is it about which ones are willing to join in?
21:43:57 <zzo38> ais523_: O, sorry. I mean which ones are willing to join in.
21:44:10 <zzo38> (And do, in the presence of the game.)
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21:44:32 <shachaf> zzo38: I would make an "educated" guess but I'm "uneducated".
21:44:40 <zzo38> Not just what is willing but what actually does, is what it means. Even if they like to but can't, then it doesn't count!
21:44:51 <zzo38> ais523_: Wrong again...
21:45:18 <shachaf> In that case my educated guess is [l].
21:45:45 <zzo38> You are getting a bit closer because it is an actual character in the game. But... no.
21:45:46 <shachaf> Remember Dangerous Dave, though? Good times.
21:47:46 <zzo38> O, I have heard of it, yes.
21:48:31 <elliott> everyone else is so bad at this
21:48:56 <Bike> i'm with elliott on this, specifically, the part about people who aren't me being bad, because the answer is [ß].
21:49:17 <zzo38> Bike: Good guess, but that isn't one of the choices!
21:49:32 <Bike> I reject your arbitrary restrictions.
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21:51:23 <zzo38> Make up your own "arbitrary restrictions".
21:52:47 <Bike> Okay, then I restrict the answer to be necessarily [ß].
21:53:07 <Bike> Of course, this restriction is unnecessary, but makes it easier to understand the rightness of my thinking.
21:53:20 <zzo38> OK, then, but now there isn't a correct answer because the only valid one is the wrong answer.
21:53:49 <ais523_> zzo38: that reminds me of a joke NPC in Pokémon, who asks where you come from
21:53:52 <Bike> I restrict the correct answer to be necessarily [ß]. Problem solved.
21:53:56 <ais523_> but the only answers they'll accept are yes and no
21:54:15 <zzo38> ais523_: O, I have seen that screenshot
21:54:43 <zzo38> But I do not know if either of those is the correct answer?
21:57:00 <ais523_> zzo38: there is no correct answer, either answer will just get you a reply
21:57:11 <ais523_> such as "no? well you have to come from somewhere, maybe you were born at the bottom of the sea?" something like that
21:57:31 <ais523_> neither reply has any effect on the game, and you can have the question asked to you multiple times or not at all
21:57:35 <Taneb> WHY ARE ALL MY TABLETOP SESSIONS CURSED TO BE INDEFINITELY DELAYED
21:58:04 <zzo38> Taneb: For how long is it delayed so far?
21:59:12 <Taneb> zzo38, we were going to have a session last month for the D&D game, but it's looking September at the earliest
21:59:29 <Taneb> The werewolf game is in a similar situation
21:59:49 <Taneb> The Scions game was supposed to be today, but has been delayed until the week after next
22:00:04 <Taneb> The Diana game isn't going to happen until October most likely
22:00:17 <Taneb> But that's good for me because I'm GM'ing that one
22:01:11 <Taneb> Gives me time to prepare
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22:17:10 <zzo38> Sometimes the D&D game I play in is also delayed but not that much and it is unknown exactly when it is going to be at.
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22:21:07 <oerjan> <fizzie> It is disheartening. <-- on the plus side he's american so his vacations are probably not _that_ long.
22:21:52 <oerjan> wait he's no longer idle
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22:22:35 <oerjan> `echo WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
22:22:36 <HackEgo> WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
22:24:50 <oerjan> it's probably some inuit greeting
22:25:45 <oerjan> an informal one, with the formal one being usiuktukartatussituk
22:32:11 <oerjan> <b_jonas> it's called YAPF for yet another pathfinder <-- has anyone used YAY as a recursive acronym yet
22:36:32 <oerjan> <elliott> I'm scared. <-- i had to check the raw logs to confirm my suspicion of why you said that.
22:36:51 <Taneb> It wasn't me this time!
22:37:22 <oerjan> no, i believe it was Andrea2
22:38:19 <Taneb> I need to try harder
22:38:46 <oerjan> next time a canaima user comes along, we have to try to extract how they found us
22:39:30 <Taneb> Do we have any regulars who actually speak Spanish?
22:40:13 <oerjan> i think there are some who know a bit
22:42:55 <oerjan> hm yiyus looks promising, although i don't remember last e talked
22:42:57 <Taneb> Actually, I need to try harder in general, really
22:46:39 <oerjan> and although je.je.je might attract spanish people, it doesn't mean e is one
22:50:08 <oerjan> that's not trying harder, how can be scary without a properly f'ed up sleeping schedule
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05:46:14 <fizzie> The DNS, it has been changed.
05:46:29 <fizzie> Now we just have to wait for it to PROPAGATE and then we're BACK in BUSINESS.
05:52:02 <coppro> who did the survey by the way?
05:52:40 <coppro> I just finally filled it out
05:53:29 <Sgeo> Who's the new hosting service?
05:54:24 <fizzie> The sleeping beargor woke up and did something; the old server's back up.
05:54:44 <Sgeo> So, does this make CloudAtCost not terrible?
05:55:29 <fizzie> Probably not; I mean, it was unavoidably down quite many days.
05:56:03 <fizzie> Hard to say when they fixed it, but the tweets suggest about ten days of average downtime.
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06:36:34 <coppro> how am I supposed to survive without hackego :(
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06:37:29 <fizzie> `echo What do you mean?
06:37:53 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
06:38:04 <fizzie> It's the very same server.
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06:39:04 <coppro> `mkdir -p /etc/etc/etc/ad\ nauseam
06:39:05 <HackEgo> mkdir: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `mkdir --help' for more information.
06:39:14 <coppro> `mkdir -p "/etc/etc/etc/ad nauseam"
06:39:14 <HackEgo> mkdir: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `mkdir --help' for more information.
06:39:22 <HackEgo> Usage: mkdir [OPTION]... DIRECTORY... \ Create the DIRECTORY(ies), if they do not already exist. \ \ Mandatory arguments to long options are mandatory for short options too. \ -m, --mode=MODE set file mode (as in chmod), not a=rwx - umask \ -p, --parents no error if existing, make parent directories as needed \ -v, --verbose print
06:39:36 <coppro> `mkdir -p "/etc/etc/etc
06:39:37 <HackEgo> mkdir: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `mkdir --help' for more information.
06:39:39 <coppro> `mkdir -p /etc/etc/etc
06:39:40 <HackEgo> mkdir: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `mkdir --help' for more information.
06:41:22 <fizzie> You need to use `run if you have more than one argument.
06:41:32 <fizzie> Plain ` passes everything after the command as a single argument.
06:41:49 <coppro> `run mkdir -p "/etc/etc/etc/ad\ nauseam"
06:41:50 <HackEgo> mkdir: cannot create directory `/etc/etc': Permission denied
06:42:03 <HackEgo> chmod: changing permissions of `/etc': Operation not permitted
06:42:06 <fizzie> It's for making things like `addquote <someone> Whatever shell metacharacters may be here. to work without having to quote everything.
06:42:07 <HackEgo> chmod: changing permissions of `/': Operation not permitted
06:42:44 <HackEgo> 660) <Phantom_Hoover> Incest, the enemy of graph theorists everywhere.
06:43:07 <coppro> elliott this is all your fault
06:43:13 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/alise: No such file or directory
06:43:38 <coppro> `run echo elliott's not hiding over here >alise
06:43:39 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
06:43:43 <coppro> `run echo elliott\'s not hiding over here >alise
06:43:49 <coppro> `run echo elliott\'s not hiding over here >/wisdom/alise
06:43:49 <HackEgo> bash: /wisdom/alise: No such file or directory
06:43:58 <coppro> `run echo elliott\'s not hiding over here >wisdom/alise
06:44:12 <coppro> `run mkdir -p etc/etc/etc/ad\ nauseam
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06:45:46 <myname> is there some kind of weblist with all the quotes?
06:45:58 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.7340
06:46:14 <coppro> see also wisdom.pdf in the topic
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06:47:42 <coppro> `run addwep Monoids A monoid is just a subalgebra of the STR algebra, if you squint hard enough.
06:49:21 <coppro> fizzie: where's hackego's current site?
06:49:26 <coppro> it's not going to codu
06:57:42 <HackEgo> urbandictionary? ¯\(°_o)/¯
06:58:23 <coppro> `run addwep urbandictionary "Urban Dictionary is an alternative, inferior wisdom database."
07:06:45 <fizzie> What does "not going to codu" mean?
07:08:09 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
07:08:14 <coppro> the URL is out of date
07:08:23 <coppro> or my cache wasn't clearing
07:09:19 <fizzie> If you want to get technical, the "physical" address is http://www2.codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
07:09:19 <coppro> `run addwep "works for me" "Error: unable to read wisdom database. try again later."
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07:46:21 <coppro> the physical address is probably an IP address hth
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09:50:50 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$2" > "wisdom/$1"
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10:02:47 <shachaf> so why do you say e.g. "tiedätko sinä suomea" instead of "sinä tiedatko suomea"
10:03:01 <shachaf> is it like the english weirdness where you switch the order of words when you ask a question
10:03:35 <shachaf> (of course "sinä" is optional in the first place, if i understand correctly, but nevertheless)
10:04:13 <Taneb> Because languages are weird?
10:04:17 <fizzie> That would be "tiedätkö", and I think people would generally say "puhutko", if you're talking about the language.
10:05:00 <shachaf> fizzie: i know but i was trying to use a different verb for once because i've been using "puhua"too mcuh :'(
10:05:13 <fizzie> But yes, it's some sort of "special sentence order for questions" thing.
10:05:54 <fizzie> The word that denotes it is a question is moved to the front, or some-such.
10:06:33 <fizzie> You can sometimes put the interrogative suffix (-ko, -kö) into different words in order to denote emphasis.
10:07:07 <fizzie> "Puhutko sinä suomea?" do you speak Finnish, with no particular special emphasis -- "Suomeako sinä puhut?!" do you speak *Finnish*?!
10:07:39 <fizzie> In the latter order, it has "out of all possible languages, you're speaking Finnish! what's wrong with you!" connotations.
10:07:57 <shachaf> ah, it's always on one word, but you can choose which one?
10:08:22 <fizzie> Yes. "Sinäkö puhut suomea?" would also be legal.
10:08:34 <fizzie> When you're trying to find the one Finnish speaker in a group, for example.
10:09:01 <fizzie> As in, "is it you who speaks Finnish
10:09:07 <shachaf> what if you want special emphasis on the verb
10:10:53 <shachaf> by the way, are questions pronounced by raising your voice a little bit toward the end of the sentence, as in english and other languages?
10:11:22 <fizzie> I guess the first variant technically emphasizes the verb, it's just that it's the most common/expected so it doesn't feel special.
10:12:02 <fizzie> And I don't think there's a rising intonation for questions. At least nothing as dramatic.
10:12:21 <shachaf> isn't even just saying "sinä" a sort of emphasis?
10:12:47 <fizzie> Yes, it is, since it's not necessary.
10:14:14 <fizzie> So you could use "puhutko sinä suomea", possibly with a bit more stress on "sinä", in the aforementioned "trying to find the elusive Finn" scenario; and you'd probably just ask "puhutko suomea?" if you're asking someone in general.
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10:14:31 <fizzie> (Language names aren't capitalized, incidentally.)
10:14:32 <shachaf> how do you decide whether to add it in or not
10:15:04 <shachaf> i suppose i can analogize to hebrew except it's not as common there
10:15:24 <shachaf> Yes, I was wondering about that.
10:17:27 <fizzie> Proper nouns, generally.
10:17:45 <fizzie> But not many things that English does, like days of the week, or months of the year.
10:18:21 <fizzie> Names of countries are, but their languages aren't, and the nouns for the peoples aren't either.
10:18:38 <fizzie> So the country is "Suomi" but the language is "suomi" and a Finn is "suomalainen".
10:19:30 <shachaf> If the language is "suomi", how does one arrive at "suomea"?
10:21:00 <fizzie> I'm sure there's some good rule. The final i does turn to an e in all inflected forms of "suomi" I can think of.
10:21:10 <fizzie> "suomea" would be the partitive case.
10:21:24 <fizzie> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Finnish_declension/ovi
10:21:43 <fizzie> "KOTUS type 7 (ovi): Two-syllable nominals ending with -i; consonant gradation possible. All other cases replace -i with -e-. Partitive ending -a/-ä and genitive plural ending -en. -e- of stem dropped before plural marker -i-."
10:24:00 <fizzie> Not all words that end in -i work that way. There's e.g. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Finnish_declension/risti
10:24:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Fansdesks * New user account
10:24:23 <shachaf> Google Translate translates "Do you speak English?" to "Puhutko Englanti?". Should it be "Puhutko englantia?"?
10:24:25 <fizzie> "Two-syllable nominals ending with -i; consonant gradation possible. Partitive ending -a/-ä and genitive plural ending -en. -i of stem changes to -e- before plural marker -i-, except in genitive plural, where it is dropped."
10:24:35 <fizzie> Yes, the latter would be correct.
10:24:38 <shachaf> (Or maybe "Puhutteko", of course.)
10:25:02 <fizzie> "puhuttekste", if you're speaking colloquially and in plural.
10:25:12 <shachaf> Oh well. Google Translate isn't very trustworthy.
10:25:20 <fizzie> Also if you wanted a closer analogue of "do you know Finnish?" it would possibly be "osaatko suomea?"
10:26:36 <fizzie> "puhuttekste suomee?" or "puhutsä/puhuksä suomee?" would be colloquial/slangy/dialecty/vernacular versions of "puhutteko suomea?" and "puhutko suomea?"
10:27:30 <fizzie> As close as I can transcribe, anyway; they're more spoken stuff, though I'm sure some people write like that in chat.
10:28:14 <fizzie> Kids these days write "onx" for "onko", anyway. Or so I hear.
10:29:44 <shachaf> I still need to figure out what people are talking about when they say "partitive".
10:30:01 <shachaf> Three-year-olds speak Finnish just fine without knowing all that. :-(
10:30:40 <fizzie> I don't know why we have a partitive case.
10:31:06 <fizzie> "As an example of the irresultative meaning of the partitive, ammuin karhun (accusative) means "I shot the bear (dead)", whereas ammuin karhua (partitive) means "I shot (at) the bear" without specifying if it was even hit."
10:33:26 <shachaf> Do you happen to have any other examples?
10:34:04 <fizzie> That was from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitive_case which has (single) examples of the various different contexts for the partitive.
10:34:18 <fizzie> The "used with uncountable nouns" case is the one I'd've thought of first.
10:35:26 <fizzie> If there's a difference between "saanko lainata kirjaa?" (one of the examples) and "saanko lainata kirjan?", it's a very subtle one.
10:36:02 <fizzie> The "luen kirjaa" / "luen kirjan" pair is more clear.
10:52:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Fansdesks]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40161 * Fansdesks * (+1418) Created page with "Hard work is one way to gain an impressive number of followers on Instagram. But there’s another way: Just [http://fansdesk.info/buy-instagram-followers/ Buy Instagram Follo..."
10:53:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ehird * deleted "[[User:Fansdesks]]": Hard work is one way to gain an impressive number of visits to your website. But there’s another way: Just Spam Web Sites.
10:54:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ehird * blocked [[User:Fansdesks]] with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page): Spamming links to external sites
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12:09:53 <Taneb> I kind of wish Haskell wasn't the first language I got really into
12:10:08 <Taneb> Because I always miss a lot of its features in pretty much any other language
12:10:22 <Taneb> And I try to write programs in other languages as though they were Haskell
12:11:38 <b_jonas> Taneb: do you mean you use camelCase instead of underscored_names?
12:11:56 <Taneb> Among other things
12:12:16 <b_jonas> some people do that in C++ independently of haskell
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12:23:05 <fizzie> Everybody does it in Java and C#, thanks to the standard libraries doing it.
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12:38:22 <Taneb> I don't think I shall cosplay on Saturday
12:38:39 <oerjan> will you sinplay instead
12:39:17 <Taneb> No, but I may cotplay
12:48:56 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$2" > "wisdom/$1"
12:49:20 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/*onoi*: No such file or directory
12:49:31 <HackEgo> wisdom/hthmonoid \ wisdom/monoid \ wisdom/monoidal category \ wisdom/monoids \ wisdom/Monoids
12:49:43 <shachaf> fizzie: how would i say "i'm talking about finnish"?
12:49:49 <shachaf> Wow, wisdom/ is such a mess
12:49:54 <HackEgo> hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids ...
12:50:00 <oerjan> shachaf: coppro messed it up yesterday
12:50:20 <HackEgo> Monoids are the easy version of categories.
12:50:29 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
12:51:24 <shachaf> oerjan: What we really need is a version of `learn that lets you specify your own name and splits on the first whitespace.
12:51:35 <shachaf> What I really need is to go to sleep.
12:51:47 <oerjan> shachaf: well `addwep is obviously a broken attempt at that
12:52:15 <shachaf> There's no way a program run with `run could ever do it.
12:56:23 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with a single object.
12:56:27 <HackEgo> Monoids are the easy version of categories.
12:56:31 <HackEgo> Monoids are the easy version of categories.
12:56:50 <oerjan> that won't ever be shown by `? anyway
12:57:05 <HackEgo> Urban Dictionary is an alternative, inferior wisdom database.
12:57:17 <HackEgo> Error: unable to read wisdom database. try again later.
12:59:59 <fizzie> shachaf: "Puhun suomen kielestä", probably, to make it more explicit (than "puhun suomesta").
13:01:35 <fizzie> Or "tarkoitan suomea/suomen kieltä" for a different sense of "I'm talking about X".
13:02:56 <HackEgo> Monoidal categories are just 2-categories with a single object.
13:05:51 <Taneb> b_jonas, what language will you be using?
13:06:03 <b_jonas> Taneb: I probably won't be doing anything this year
13:06:20 <b_jonas> I'll read the task and spend time on it only if it seems very interesting AND if I have time
13:06:35 <b_jonas> I will definitely read the task though, this is a spectator sport
13:06:38 <Taneb> Well, I know that I have the time
13:07:27 <Taneb> I would do it with my programmer housemate, but our common languages are Python and C, and I'm not all that great at C and neither of us particularly like Python
13:08:27 <b_jonas> Taneb: combine multiple languages then
13:08:44 <Taneb> He's a C++ guy and I'm a Haskell guy
13:08:48 <Taneb> The result may not be pretty
13:09:02 <b_jonas> well, that could depend on the task I guess
13:09:09 <olsner> or one of you writes the code in the language of choice, and the other works on analyzing the problem
13:09:31 <Taneb> olsner, that may be a better idea
13:09:33 <b_jonas> Taneb: have you looked at the background of the http://icfpcontest.org/ webpage, http://icfpcontest.org/images/bkg.png ?
13:09:46 <olsner> based on some earlier icfps there might be separate tasks to work on independently though
13:10:07 <Taneb> b_jonas, not in great detail
13:10:26 <b_jonas> it seems to have a pattern made of squares of two different colors
13:17:08 <b_jonas> oh, and its size isn't even divisible with the size of those squares
13:17:15 <Taneb> http://i.imgur.com/jDaoHBg.png
13:17:21 <Taneb> That's it in black and white
13:18:09 <b_jonas> the webpage might come form https://github.com/icfpcontest2014/icfpcontest2014.github.io
13:19:54 <b_jonas> (I'm more of a perl and C++ person anyway)
13:21:02 <Taneb> Looks like I'm teaming up with my housemate
13:36:07 <olsner> hmm, so is the background a hidden message of some sort?
13:46:37 <b_jonas> I don't think so, but it could be
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15:31:18 <elliott> fizzie: yay at the wiki being back
15:31:23 <elliott> any plans to move it still?
15:40:59 <fizzie> Well, I mean, I'll think about it, but *lazy*
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15:42:34 <elliott> how about I move it and you maintain it after that so I can sleep at night? :p
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15:52:45 <fizzie> Calm down, it's only ones and zeroes.
15:54:55 <elliott> it will be very very dark and I will be eaten by a graue for letting the wiki fall into such bargain basement hosting :(
15:56:07 <ais523_> have computers improved to the stage where they can actually run MediaWiki yet?
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15:58:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40162&oldid=40089 * GermanyBoy * (+1) /* Character set */ '='-character
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16:30:31 <ais523_> @djinn ((a -> Void) -> Void) -> a
16:30:45 <ais523_> saw that one in an article talking about the Curry-Howard correspondence
16:31:07 <ais523_> it's a true statement in most logics, but the article claims (without proof) that it can't be expressed in lambda calculus
16:31:12 <elliott> it's double-negation elimination.
16:31:24 <elliott> intuitionistic type theory corresponds to intuitionistic logic.
16:31:32 <elliott> double-negation elimination is equivalent to LEM
16:32:07 <ais523_> and the standard lambda calculus type system models intuitionistic logic, presumably
16:32:09 <elliott> ais523_: if you had that function you could write a term of type (Either a (a -> Void))
16:32:13 <ais523_> wasn't quite sure which logic it corresponded to
16:32:23 <elliott> your intuition should be enough to tell you that's impossible without _|_
16:32:47 <elliott> I don't think there's a standard lambda calculus type system :)
16:33:18 <ais523_> elliott: hmm, perhaps; you can talk about "typed lambda calculus" without people shouting at you, though
16:33:53 <ais523_> the one I know is identity, weakening, abstraction, application, and the main point of contention is whether contraction should be implicit or explicit
16:34:12 <elliott> the STLC is a rather boring logic, at least
16:34:59 <ais523_> elliott: hmm, that (Either a (a -> Void)) type reminds me of the halting problem, in a way
16:35:27 <elliott> ais523_: because it's a decision procedure for every proposition?
16:35:55 <ais523_> although, there's a different problem
16:36:10 <ais523_> which is that given two different Voids, you can't even construct Void1 -> Void2 in Haskell, I don't think
16:36:14 <ais523_> perhaps you could with a pattern match
16:36:22 <ais523_> you just write let voidconvert v = case v of
16:36:27 <ais523_> and that's the entire function
16:36:37 <ais523_> somehow I don't think that's valid syntax, though
16:36:59 <b_jonas> dunno, I think I was just laughing at "standard lambda calculus type system" too
16:37:33 <ais523_> I have problems (at work) with people assuming things are standardised when they actually aren't
16:38:25 <ais523_> is it possible to write a pattern match with zero cases in Haskell?
16:39:31 <Vorpal> TLS certificates are such a pain to deal with :/
16:41:27 <ski> ais523_ : <https://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/users_guide/syntax-extns.html#empty-case>
16:41:52 <ski> @djinn Void -> a
16:42:32 <ski> @djinn-add type NotNot a = Not (Not a)
16:42:43 <ski> @djinn NotNot (Either a (Not a))
16:42:43 <lambdabot> f a = void (a (Right (\ b -> a (Left b))))
16:43:08 <ski> `void' is `void v = case v of {}'
16:43:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: void': not found
16:43:31 <ski> @type either
16:43:32 <lambdabot> (a -> c) -> (b -> c) -> Either a b -> c
16:43:43 <ski> void :: Void -> a
16:45:17 <ais523_> ski: thanks, was just reading that page
16:45:32 <elliott> ais523_: you can interconvert given absurd :: VoidN -> a
16:45:56 <ais523_> elliott: yeah, the point was that the empty case lets you define absurd in the first place
16:46:01 <elliott> which is implementable for "newtype Void = Void (forall a. a)" and "newtype Void = Void Void" with no extra extensions
16:46:05 <elliott> and "data Void" with the empty case extension
16:46:18 <elliott> (note that the first one requires the RankNTypes extension to state)
16:46:18 <ais523_> also, something I learned from that page is that OCaml's "function" keyword doesn't have a Haskell equivalent by default, but GHC implements it as "\case"
16:46:26 <elliott> absurd x = x `seq` undefined is also an OK implementation
16:46:34 <elliott> because you can proof that the _|_ is never reached
16:46:39 <ski> (the first one really only requires `PolymorphicComponents')
16:47:01 <ais523_> elliott: anyway, I read up about rank N and rank 2 types a bunch because it was relevant to my research
16:47:07 <elliott> (even absurd _ = undefined is fine, really, since you have to abandon _|_ inputs anyway)
16:47:12 <ski> ais523_ : yes, it's a bit sad that we had to wait so long for it
16:47:26 <ais523_> it turns out that type inference for rank 2 types is actually decidable, but ghc doesn't currently infer it
16:47:55 <ski> in SML, `if foo then bar else baz' is sugar for `case foo of true => bar | false => baz' is sugar for `(fn true => bar | false => baz) foo'
16:48:01 <zzo38> ais523_: Would that be a reason to have separate extensions for rank 2 and rank N?
16:48:11 <ski> zzo38 : it could be
16:48:13 <ais523_> zzo38: possibly it would be
16:48:31 <ski> (and currently both exist as separate extensions)
16:48:37 <elliott> Rank2Types is deprecated I think
16:48:56 <ais523_> ski: in OCaml, I'd guess that the primitive would be "match foo with True -> bar | False -> baz"
16:49:11 <ais523_> or maybe "(function True -> bar | False -> baz) foo"
16:49:26 <ais523_> so yeah, it's probably the same as SML in that respect
16:50:32 <ski> ais523_ : "something I learned from that page", which page ?
16:50:40 <ais523_> btw, a quirk of Reddit I've been noticing: if an article gets a really large number of comments, the best ones are on the second page
16:50:45 <ais523_> ski: the one you most recently linked to me
16:51:02 <ais523_> some background: I work in type theory research, and don't really use Haskell, but sometimes I use it to test out theories
16:51:04 * ski can't see OCaml mentioned at it
16:51:23 <ais523_> ski: oh, that's because I know much of OCaml quite well, but not really Haskell
16:51:37 <ais523_> so if I learn something new about the comparison between OCaml and Haskell, it's normally on the Haskell side
16:52:00 <ski> in Agda2, one'd write `void' differently
16:52:23 <ski> void : {A : Set} -> Void -> A
16:52:38 <ski> `()' is an absurd pattern
16:52:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ()': not found
16:52:53 <ski> (and if you use it, you don't need a definiens)
16:53:32 <ski> (actually, imo, it could make more sense to allow a definiens here)
16:53:57 * ski idly wonders which part of type theory ais523_ works on
16:54:01 <ais523_> ski: Agda2 has explicit foralls?
16:54:15 <ais523_> ski: finite-state type theory, especially affine logics
16:54:18 <ski> what do you mean by "explicit foralls" ?
16:54:31 <ais523_> the System F style where you have a type parameter to functions
16:54:47 <ais523_> rather than the OCaml style where you write 'a and it implies a type parameter for 'a
16:54:52 <ski> well, it's just dependent functions
16:55:05 <ski> however, Agda2 (and Agda1) has implicit arguments
16:55:19 <ski> with explicit arguments, the above would just look like
16:55:29 <ski> void : (A : Set) -> Void -> A
16:56:03 <ski> you can also say stuff like
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16:56:35 <ais523_> right, in a dependent type system, there's no difference between a lowercase (value) lambda and an uppercase (type) lambda, because values and types are combined
16:56:36 <ski> _++_ : {A : Set} -> {m : Nat} -> {n : Nat} -> Vector A m -> Vector A n -> Vector (m + n)
16:56:43 <ski> _+_ : Nat -> Nat -> Nat
16:56:58 <ski> Vector : Set -> Nat -> Set
16:57:45 <ski> in `_++_', the `m' and `n' natural length arguments are implicit
16:58:17 <ski> (since usually when you use `_++_', you apply it to arguments so that `m' and `n' can be inferred)
16:58:56 <ski> i've not heard the name "finite-state type theory" before
16:59:20 <ski> is it like a version of "of course", indexed with a natural number expressing how many times you may use the resource ?
16:59:27 <ais523_> well it's a pretty small niche, because it's sub-TC by definition
16:59:34 <ais523_> ski: that's "bounded contraction", which is part of it
16:59:42 <ais523_> a whole chapter of my thesis is on the subject
16:59:54 <ais523_> where I argue that there's a design error in all the bounded contraction type systems I'm aware of
17:00:01 <ais523_> err, the non-dependently-typed ones, that is
17:00:05 <ski> sounds interesting
17:00:15 <ski> (are there any dependently-typed ones ?)
17:00:28 <ais523_> yes, but they're massively complex and I don't really understand them
17:00:43 <ais523_> they noticed the same error I did, and worked around it using a hideously complex dependent typing variant
17:00:54 <ais523_> whereas I'm working around it with intersection types
17:01:31 <ais523_> the basic problem's to do with the fact that the contraction bounds aren't properly polymorphic
17:01:47 <ski> i only recall seeing some notes by Pfenning that didn't treat the quantifiers in a substructural way, iirc
17:02:24 <ais523_> b_jonas: it's not that bad, being sub-TC is sort-of a magic fix for half the problems in type theory
17:02:30 <ais523_> because all of a sudden, you can solve problems by brute force
17:02:48 <b_jonas> maybe I should try to ask this channel about non-eso theoretic problems
17:02:52 <ais523_> that said, one of my major results is that SCC (and similar type systems) have decidable type inference
17:02:54 <ski> "sub-TC" means substructural variants of Type Theory, yes ?
17:03:33 <ais523_> ski: well, in this case, I just mean that with relatively normal semantics, programs in the type systems in question have decidable inference
17:03:50 <ais523_> which implies that the languages can't be Turing-complete
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17:05:00 <ais523_> finite-state languages are those in which the semantics of any program can be represented as a state machine
17:05:20 <elliott> ski: total functional programming languages don't necessarily need substructural type systems...
17:05:28 <elliott> Agda and Coq aren't considered subtructural, are they?
17:05:37 <ais523_> that said, I am using substructural type systems
17:05:40 <elliott> well, this gets back to how ambiguous "TC" is :/
17:05:42 <ais523_> elliott: do Agda and Coq have decidable equivalence?
17:05:51 <elliott> but I'm pretty sure you can model brainfuck in a substructural type system too
17:05:57 <ais523_> oh, I guess you have to define what equivalence is
17:06:02 <ais523_> because in a total language, all programs halt
17:06:12 <ais523_> thus the halt status of any two programs is the same for any given input
17:06:18 <ais523_> so the "normal" definition isn't going to work
17:06:23 <ski> elliott : i know. i was just initially thinking "sub" here was short for "substructural"
17:06:59 <ais523_> ah right, "sub-TC" means "does not live up to (is below) the status of Turing Completeness"
17:07:16 <ski> (hm, for some strange reason i was seeing "TT" instead of "TC")
17:07:25 <ais523_> which is quite common in esolangs by new designers which are not BF derivatives
17:07:49 <ais523_> (actually some of the BF derivatives are sub-TC too, which should be really embarrassing for the designers unless that was intentional)
17:08:24 <b_jonas> wait, do you mean that variant that takes the program as unary?
17:08:54 <ski> hm, the world needs a dependently typed turing tar pit esolang
17:09:21 <elliott> ais523_: I like the implication that TC is high-status.
17:10:02 <ais523_> incidentally, New Scientist was busy talking about apparently serious efforts to construct a super-Turing computer
17:10:16 <ais523_> the researchers wanted to create an analog computer that processed arbitrary-precision reals, I think
17:10:26 <ais523_> somehow I don't think they'll succeed
17:10:32 <ais523_> although it would be great if they did
17:10:40 <ais523_> ski: I wonder what that would look like
17:11:03 <ais523_> I guess it'd either be dependently typed lambda calculus, or something unlambda-style with combinators
17:11:16 <ais523_> (normally I'd explain combinators but based on your nick, I don't think there's a need)
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17:14:47 <zzo38> Did you know that? One reason I try to write my own Famicom emulator is because I don't like hash checking and I don't like the method of loading FDS programs that most emulators use.
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18:07:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * JuliannCoffin * New user account
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18:35:13 <TieSoul> The message isn't showing anymore
18:35:50 <ais523_> TieSoul: I've seen occasional edits
18:35:55 <ais523_> so it's not read-only any more
18:36:20 <TieSoul> I have two languages that aren't on there
18:38:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TieSoul * New user account
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18:41:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:TieSoul]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40163 * TieSoul * (+93) Created page with "List of languages created by TieSoul, in chronological order: * [[Befunk]] * [[Replacefuck]]"
18:41:58 <ski> ais523_ :)
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18:44:27 * ski . o O ( <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blum%E2%80%93Shub%E2%80%93Smale_machine> Iä ! )
18:48:25 <Bike> smale's cool. imo read his problems
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20:04:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * TieSoul * uploaded "[[File:Befunk-euler1.png]]": Project Euler problem 1 in Befunk.
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20:08:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunk]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40165 * TieSoul * (+6031) Created the page.
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20:38:12 <HackEgo> 498) <CakeProphet> monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...around half an hour later...] <CakeProphet> @messages <lambdabot> quicksilver said 1y 2m 18d 19h 54m 29s ago: you use @tell
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20:41:40 <elliott> I still can't fucking believe that
20:42:56 <ais523_> actually, we missed a trick
20:43:03 <ais523_> should have waited for them to leave and then sent the message again
20:43:09 <ais523_> @tell CakeProfit you use @tell
20:43:17 <ais523_> hopefully in a few years we can set a new record
20:43:30 <ais523_> @tell CakeProphet you use @tell
20:43:30 -!- not^v has changed nick to ^4.
20:43:43 <elliott> he uses different nicks these days.
20:44:49 <ais523_> good, that'll increase the timeframe before it happens again
20:45:42 <ais523_> it's just the "possibly" I care about
20:45:47 <ais523_> I don't really mind if it never happens
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21:02:51 <int-e> profit, prophet ... Dogma was a nice movie.
21:08:27 <Taneb> Today I found out that one of the lecturers here, his research seems to include Eodermdrome
21:09:20 <ais523_> well I don't lecture you (at least, not in person physically), so presumably other people have been picking up my esolang without me being aware of it
21:09:45 <Taneb> ais523_, I don't mean the language specifically, but certainly something resembling it quite closely
21:09:52 <Taneb> Detlef Plump, if the name is familiar
21:11:21 <int-e> graph rewriting is a serious research topic
21:11:34 <ais523_> and yes, graph rewriting is not just me, I've seen it elsewhere
21:12:14 <Taneb> It was just described to me by someone who had attended a seminar about a language based on replacing subgraphs with a shape similar to a given one
21:12:26 <Taneb> Which in my head immediately rang bells
21:13:35 <elliott> detlef plump is a great name
21:14:28 <ais523_> huh, for me, esolangs.org is showing the "read-only" notice and has no CSS
21:14:48 <ais523_> Login error There is no user by the name "ais523". Usernames are case sensitive. Check your spelling, or create a new account.
21:15:04 <ais523_> must be that the DNS hasn't propagated
21:15:16 <ais523_> because it's mentioning fail.esolangs.org in the retrieved pages
21:15:33 <fizzie> Did you try reloading with all kinds of modifier keys already?
21:16:57 <Taneb> ais523_, could you have a gander at http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/plasma/publications/pdf/Plump.CAI.09.pdf ?
21:17:09 <ais523_> fizzie: I tried control-shift-R
21:17:14 <ais523_> my guess is that it's DNS-related
21:17:58 <fizzie> Well, it can be both. But also the esolangs.org DNS records have pretty long TTLs.
21:18:04 <ais523_> Taneb: it's much more complex than eodermdrome
21:18:22 <Taneb> I think the core is the same
21:18:24 <fizzie> (I had to shift-reload for Chrome to pick up a new DNS entry; they've got their own resolver, I guess it has a cache too.)
21:19:12 <Taneb> Now I wish I knew this lecturer so I could tell him about Eodermdrome
21:19:18 <ais523_> Taneb: not really, the core's more general by being more complex, I think
21:19:46 <ais523_> it allows combinations of "must have an edge" and "can't have an edge" that don't exist in Eodermdrome
21:19:50 <zzo38> If you tell the proper IP address then maybe you can manually override it temporarily.
21:19:51 <ais523_> but apart from that it's quite similar
21:20:07 <ais523_> I think the difference is that that language is designed for working on existing graphs
21:20:14 <ais523_> that aren't designed specifically to work with it
21:20:23 <ais523_> whereas in Eodermdrome, you use the graph for data storage and flow control and everything
21:21:00 <ais523_> Taneb: tell him about it anyway, I might end up getting a citation :-)
21:21:28 <Taneb> I'm afraid I've never met him.
21:21:35 <Taneb> I think I have him next term for something
21:21:38 <ais523_> oh, the other really big difference
21:21:44 <ais523_> is that the nodes are labelled in that language
21:21:48 <ais523_> and they all look the same in Eodermdrome
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21:24:27 <Taneb> But if I get talking to him I promise I'll mention it!
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22:30:51 -!- oerjan has set topic: El canal que se pregunta por qué los usuarios de Canaima vienen aquí, a pesar de que no hablamos español. | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
22:31:34 <oerjan> if someone understands spanish they might fix the grammar (i only managed to fix hablamos)
22:33:10 <zzo38> I am not Spanish, so I don't know.
22:33:32 <oerjan> i did not expect you to be
22:33:49 <shachaf> Most Spanish speakers aren't Spanish.
22:34:00 <oerjan> i don't know how many spanish speakers there are in british columbia.
22:34:16 <zzo38> I don't know either, but probably there are some.
22:35:07 <shachaf> Olen suomalainen, mutta en puhu suomea. :-(
22:35:49 * oerjan guessed right what that meant
22:36:14 <oerjan> i must have absorbed some from all the discussions here
22:45:16 <oerjan> <ski> (and currently both exist as separate extensions) <-- i vaguely recall Rank2Types is just a (deprecated) synonym for RankNTypes nowadays.
22:48:34 <oerjan> @ask ais523 <ais523_> btw, a quirk of Reddit I've been noticing: if an article gets a really large number of comments, the best ones are on the second page <-- wait how do you read reddit comments such that it's divided into pages
22:49:33 <Melvar> I seem to have missed a talking about dependent types in here, and they didn’t even use idris-bot.
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23:42:38 <HackEgo> [U+1D40 MODIFIER LETTER CAPITAL T]
23:43:13 <oerjan> i dunno it's a bit square
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00:02:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40166&oldid=39975 * 41.227.146.80 * (+15) /* General languages */
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01:08:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MikelIcely * New user account
01:08:26 <oerjan> by wikipedia's news, you'd think flying was dangerous or something
01:11:02 <oerjan> @tell fizzie i clearly remember visiting the newly editable wiki earlier tonight, but now the DNS has turned _back_ to the uneditable version.
01:17:59 <zzo38> Do you like the Imakuni?'s cards?
01:18:30 <zzo38> Do you know the proper IP address for the editable wiki? You could temporarily override it manually until it is fixed.
01:19:08 <oerjan> yes i found it from another (nvg) server
01:19:27 <oerjan> but i'm too lazy unless it's important
01:28:07 <zzo38> Some tournaments for various games have tie breakers; it is common. However, I prefer to defer any tie breakers until they are needed, allowing the tie to stand when possible. What is your opinion of this? (Clearly, it depends on the tournament format.)
01:29:37 <oerjan> yeah, soccer is like that, tie breaking is only used when there has to be a winner.
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01:34:39 <zzo38> I know that in Rock-Paper-Scissors tournament, in case of a tie normally the game continues normally, but if it happens too often then the referee is required to interfere.
01:37:07 <zzo38> In Pokemon Card, there is a standard "sudden death" rule, however I do not like it and instead use the following rule: If the game ended with both players meeting win conditions just after one player attacked, before poison is checked, then the attacker loses; otherwise the tie stands. Standing ties are then deferred according to tournament conditions.
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01:38:37 <nys> Arete Code
01:41:41 <zzo38> What is the rule in poker if you cannot divide the pot?
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01:49:47 <zzo38> I know that in Pandante (Texas Hold'em for Pandas), such a situation is impossible; the amount of the pot is always even and if there is a tie of more than two players, nobody gets paid anything.
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02:09:20 <oerjan> the massacre continues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/FALSE
02:13:59 <zzo38> Is there a Pokemon Card manga where Professor Oak invents Pokemon Card?
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03:41:44 <Sgeo> What's the best way to convert .wmv to something playable on Macs easily?
03:41:58 <Sgeo> I tried using VLC to convert to mp4, but the sound came out garbaled
03:43:52 <zzo38> If nothing else works, you can try to just record the output of Windows Media Player.
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03:55:32 <Bike> some horrid command line invocation but it'll work
03:56:12 <Sgeo> Cygwin doesn't have it?
03:56:24 <Bike> i thought you were on a mac
03:56:48 <Sgeo> There are people who need to view this file who are on a mac
03:57:11 <Sgeo> Stupidly, I recorded it with GoToMeeting
03:57:11 <Bike> well there are ffmpeg binaries for windows, on the site, you don't need cygwin, probably
03:57:57 <Bike> when i transcoded things on windows i used winamp but that was years ago and also it's bloated as shit nowadays or wahtever.
03:59:57 <Sgeo> I thought WinAmp was dead
04:00:36 <Sgeo> "Despite AOL's announcement, the Winamp site was not shut down as planned, and on January 14, 2014, it was officially announced that Belgian online radio aggregator Radionomy had bought the Nullsoft brand, which includes Winamp and Shoutcast."
04:01:21 * Sgeo twitches at WinAmp's website
04:01:32 <Sgeo> That laptop looks like it's off the screen in my browser
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04:05:53 <Sgeo> If I want to maintain the same bitrates, do I use ffprobe and look at the kb/s of each individual stream?
04:06:45 <Sgeo> Oh I think -crf 0
04:11:08 <Sgeo> Ok, that takes way too long
04:11:20 <Sgeo> Do macs come with ffplay?
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04:50:42 <Sgeo> And... the file is too big to attach, ugh
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05:54:03 <fizzie> @tell oerjan WELL THAT'S FUNNY I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S UP WITH THAT
06:01:11 <fizzie> @tell oerjan More seriously, perhaps your ISP has two (or more) name servers, only some of which had the old esolangs.org cached.
06:03:07 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
06:03:47 <fizzie> Also AIUI, a CRF of 0 would be an entirely lossless encoding, since it's going to translate to a -qp of 0.
06:05:05 <Sgeo> Right, lossless but encoded from a video that was presumably lossily encoded in the first place
06:05:14 <Sgeo> Maybe I don't understand video codecs.
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08:50:40 <fizzie> "Subject: CAN I DEPOSIT 20,000,000.00GBP INTO YOUR ACCOUNT"
08:50:47 <fizzie> A very excited piece of spam.
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08:57:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40167&oldid=40108 * TieSoul * (+13) Befunk added.
09:04:15 <myname> wait, befunge is concurrent?
09:08:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunk]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40168&oldid=40165 * TieSoul * (+205) Added external resources.
09:09:46 <TieSoul> there's a concurrent version of Befunge-98
09:10:24 <TieSoul> with an instruction 't' that adds another IP going in reversed direction of the IP that runs it.
09:10:49 <myname> with one shared stack or one stack per IP?
09:11:08 <TieSoul> no, one stack stack per IP
09:11:33 <TieSoul> IPs do inherit stack stacks from their parent IPs
09:11:55 <TieSoul> some implementations don't do that
09:12:38 <TieSoul> the descriptions for 400, 401 and 402 are cut off D:
09:13:08 <myname> i need a befunge to befunk converter
09:15:52 <TieSoul> A perfect one cannot be made
09:16:18 <TieSoul> because of instructions that are executed both in and not in stringmode
09:16:23 <TieSoul> so strings will get messed up
09:17:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunk]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40169&oldid=40168 * TieSoul * (+68) Fuxed the descriptions for instructions 400 through 402.
09:24:14 <fizzie> There's also vague plans for an asynchronous concurrency fingerprint for Funge-98.
09:24:19 <fizzie> ATHR or something like that.
09:25:07 <fizzie> Since the "native" concurrency (via 't') mandates that each IP executes a single tick in alternating order.
09:25:58 <fizzie> There are also rumours that one of the less-known intermediate versions (Befunge-96 or Befunge-97, I forget which) did shared-stack concurrency.
09:26:43 <fizzie> http://frox25.no-ip.org/~mtve/tmp/bef_maillist_0_520.txt seems to suggest that it was -96.
09:26:54 <Taneb> I really need to get a desk
09:27:52 <fizzie> Perhaps you could 3d-print one.
09:27:55 <fizzie> It would be very 2014.
09:28:27 <Taneb> Which would be great if I had access to a 3D printer, and my landlady hasn't said that she'll buy me one if I find one
09:28:45 <Taneb> That is, she'll buy me a desk
09:29:13 <fizzie> You could try explaining that a 3D printer equals an unlimited amount of desks.
09:29:28 <fizzie> As long as they fit in a, say, 16x16x16 cm cube, and don't have to be very strong.
09:30:15 <Taneb> I think IKEA may be a better short-term solution
09:34:55 <fizzie> Our desks are of the GALANT series.
09:35:08 <fizzie> Anyway, they're not bad.
09:40:36 <impomatic_> I bought our desks from here http://www.theofficesuppliessupermarket.com
09:41:10 <impomatic_> They're nothing exciting to look at, but pretty solid.
09:44:25 * impomatic_ is writing a program to play Neutron http://www.gamerz.net/pbmserv/neutron.html
10:05:04 <TieSoul> How do I use newlines in code blocks properly on the wiki?
10:07:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Replacefuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40170 * TieSoul * (+1464) Created page.
10:09:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40171&oldid=40167 * TieSoul * (+18) Added replacefuck.
10:10:44 <TieSoul> I thought up and implemented replacefuck in like 15 minutes :P
10:11:57 <olsner> 15 minutes is a long time in the life of a brainfuck derivative
10:12:55 <HackEgo> Brick goes in brain. The statutory punishment for perpetrators of brainfuck derivatives.
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10:16:47 <boily> "Please wait while boily is fully booted..."
10:17:08 <boily> (just got out of bed. not entirely coherent yet. my toasts need nutella.)
10:19:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunk]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40172&oldid=40169 * TieSoul * (+0)
10:19:32 <Taneb> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/deadpool-arrested-on-sydney-train-police-alerted-to-superhero-armed-with-guns-grenades-and-ninja-swords/story-fni0cx12-1227001404525?nk=11bebdd40bbec2cef7639e9952ed7285
10:22:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunk]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40173&oldid=40172 * TieSoul * (+5) Fixed '|' not displaying in the instruction table.
10:22:54 <boily> TieSoul: good morning!
10:28:45 <boily> it feels good to be able to update the PDF again ^^
10:34:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Topsy turvy]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40174 * 91.125.156.167 * (+1149) Created page with "==Language definition== '''Topsy Turvy''' operates on an array of cells, each initially set to an undefined value. A data pointer initially points to the cell in the centre of..."
10:37:36 <TieSoul> It also inverts all stat changes on the foe :P
10:37:52 <TieSoul> That's a pokemon reference
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11:02:59 <fizzie> Huh. LaTeX/BibTeX is putting the locatio and the year of a random conference at the top of the bibliography for no discernible reason.
11:04:12 <fizzie> In the source .bib file, there's a @proceedings entry, and two (cited) @inproceedings entries referring to it with a crossref field.
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11:07:56 <boily> maybe a stray space somewhere is wrecking the numerical/alphabetical/asciibetical order?
11:10:12 <fizzie> But, I mean, it's not a complete entry or anything.
11:10:44 <fizzie> It just says "Chiba, Japan, Sept. 2010" on the top of the bibliography.
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11:13:48 <fizzie> And, uh... in the two entries where it *should* say that, it just says a nonsensical "con (2010)".
11:15:21 <int-e> Impossible to diagnose, there are too many variables, starting from the bibstyle, which may just be buggy
11:15:35 <fizzie> As in: [...]. In /Proceedings of the 11th Annual Conference of the International Speech Communication Association (Interspeech 2010)/ con (2010), pages [...]
11:15:50 <fizzie> With // denoting italics.
11:17:02 <fizzie> All the other similar stuff works fine.
11:20:12 <fizzie> It vaguely seems to happen if there is more than one entry pointing (with crossref) at the same conference.
11:20:25 <fizzie> But that's just silly, since the whole point was to share those.
11:23:36 <fizzie> For the record, the style is natbib's "abbrvnat".
11:26:54 <fizzie> If I make a second conference with >1 crossref to it, it puts the address and year of that also on top of the list, and then writes "con (1984)" in the entries.
11:27:15 <fizzie> Which makes it sound like it's something intentional.
11:27:23 <fizzie> Maybe I need to look at the natbib documentation.
11:34:04 <fizzie> Welp, I can't seem to find anything about automagically doing something like that.
11:35:49 <fizzie> Doesn't happen if I don't use the crossref, but that's silly.
11:36:50 <fizzie> Oh, it's apparently a bibtex feature.
11:38:23 <fizzie> "bibtex -min-crossrefs=100" made it stop; apparently it will then only make some sort of automagical separate "crossref" entries if there are at least 100 references to the same thing.
11:38:50 <fizzie> I don't have any idea why it decided to "abstract out" only the address and year, and not e.g. the booktitle.
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12:08:20 <fizzie> I wonder why NIPS papers' "official" BibTeX files use @incollection instead of @inproceedings. I mean, it is a conference.
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12:23:14 <b_jonas> someone add the two languages used in this year's icfp to the wiki
12:23:20 <b_jonas> if you figure out how they work
12:23:30 <b_jonas> do that only after the contest
12:31:44 <lambdabot> fizzie said 6h 37m 40s ago: WELL THAT'S FUNNY I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S UP WITH THAT
12:31:44 <lambdabot> fizzie said 6h 30m 32s ago: More seriously, perhaps your ISP has two (or more) name servers, only some of which had the old esolangs.org cached.
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12:39:10 <fizzie> "Page(s): I" I certainly doubt that.
12:39:32 <fizzie> Especially since the paper is 4 pages.
12:39:59 <fizzie> (Apparently the "correct" answer is it's pages from "I - 289" to "I - 292".)
12:40:45 <fizzie> oerjan: How about NOW?
12:42:12 <oerjan> this looks decisively un-editable.
12:43:44 <fizzie> I don't know why that should be.
12:44:02 <fizzie> The TTL time should be 86400 seconds, also.
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12:44:29 <fizzie> PIN numbers and all that.
12:44:54 <oerjan> maybe i should try restarting the router.
12:46:47 <olsner> how long ago was the DNS changed? my dig shows a TTL of 10000 remaining (for esolangs.org)
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13:08:23 <fizzie> olsner: And what address?
13:08:40 <olsner> fizzie: 162.248.166.242
13:08:51 <fizzie> Well, that's the new one.
13:09:01 <fizzie> I mean, the right one.
13:09:08 <fizzie> It's a matter of definitions, of course.
13:09:35 <fizzie> In any case, I think I changed it around 9AM (EEST) yesterday, which should have been more than a day ago.
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13:58:47 <olsner> b_jonas: they don't seem particularly hard to figure out, fwiw, they're almost fully documented by the icfp description
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14:31:09 <b_jonas> olsner: yeah, but they're sort of unrealistic, as in, they don't really look like something you'd have in a 1980s microcontroller, and especially the way the interrupts are designed seems to want to deliberately limit the ghost's power
14:45:57 <b_jonas> but yeah, certainly not as esoteric as Endo's DNS
14:46:40 <b_jonas> that reminds me, Endo's DNS certainly needs a mention on the esowiki
14:47:03 <b_jonas> because that's a crazy pattern matcher language
14:52:38 <b_jonas> olsner: from a previous ICFP contest
14:53:28 <b_jonas> it's a self-modifying string pattern matching language with a much more powerful matcher than just fixed strings
14:54:16 <b_jonas> it can copy long strings in quasi-constant time so you need some kind of balanced tree representation to implement it properly (this is basically mentioned in the task spec)
14:54:25 <b_jonas> copy and concatenate and slice
15:08:22 <oerjan> this was the year everyone was discussing ropes, right
15:11:45 <olsner> I wonder if modifying my c++ template lisp compiler is a reasonable way to attack this problem
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15:16:57 <HackEgo> 417) <itidus20> monqy: last night in my dreams I saw a false photo album of my childhood... looking ghostly \ 461) <elliott> I MIGHT BECOME GHOST
15:20:34 <HackEgo> 809) <HackEgo> 88) <ais523> (still, whatever possessed anyone to invent the N-Gage?) [...] <Sgeo_> Is there supposed to be a joke in 88? <Sgeo_> Unless "N-Gage" is some pseudoscientific spiritual mumbo-jumbo, I don't get it. <Sgeo_> Oh, it's a cell phone gaming thing apparently \ 1084) <boily> btw, ^v, what are your approximate geographic coördi
15:21:43 <olsner> b_jonas: anyway, it takes s-expressions coded as c++ types and interprets them to types or compiles them to functions
15:21:44 <oerjan> `` quote spirit | tail -n +2
15:21:45 <HackEgo> 1084) <boily> btw, ^v, what are your approximate geographic coördinates and body weigh? <^v> 300 and USA <boily> nice to see that ^v is keeping with the spirit of the channel by providing completely useless answers to the question.
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15:31:37 <nooodl> i think i've solved infinite dimensional 3x3x3x... tic-tac-toe!
15:33:06 <nooodl> found a strategy to always win as X
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15:33:50 <oerjan> logically, the first player is always able not to lose
15:34:14 <nooodl> wanna play a game? moves are infinite sequences of {-1,0,1}
15:34:27 <nooodl> (i feel like testing my strategy)
15:34:55 <tromp__> moves must be computable sequences?
15:35:16 <oerjan> i don't think that matters
15:35:25 <oerjan> at least if it's a finite game
15:37:09 <b_jonas> wait... _infinite_ sequences?
15:37:30 <nooodl> yeah. cause the grid is infinite-dimensional
15:37:33 <tromp__> can't you just win in the first 3 dimensions?
15:37:33 <oerjan> he _did_ say infinite dimensional, b_jonas
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15:38:26 <b_jonas> but then it's easy, for the first three moves you just make three generic moves (that is, they're linear independent with all previous moves including yours and the opponent),
15:38:35 <b_jonas> then you have to open positions to finish
15:38:44 <b_jonas> it's a bit more complicated
15:39:08 <b_jonas> but basically something like that works
15:39:14 <b_jonas> your first move is all zeros,
15:39:35 <b_jonas> first move is all -1 I mean
15:39:41 <oerjan> i have a hunch that there is some finite dimension which suffices to show the strategy
15:39:52 <oerjan> actually that's obvious if the game is bounded
15:39:55 <b_jonas> next move is random sequences of all -1 and 0
15:40:00 <nooodl> oerjan: indeed; it's 3
15:40:14 <b_jonas> third move is random sequence of all -1 and 0 but such that where you had 0 in second move you have 0 here too
15:41:42 <oerjan> well you need to ensure the opponent didn't win first
15:42:12 <nooodl> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15495351/inftic.pdf
15:44:26 <HackEgo> 967) <Sgeo> I think pastaquote should just quote me
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15:44:55 <olsner> (does it always produce that quote, or was I incredibly lucky?)
15:44:55 <HackEgo> 967) <Sgeo> I think pastaquote should just quote me
15:45:10 <int-e> `cat bin/pastaquote
15:45:11 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec quote "pasta|spaghetti|macaroni|maccheroni|ravioli|fusilli|tortellini|noodle|tagliatelle"
15:45:32 <HackEgo> 967) <Sgeo> I think pastaquote should just quote me
15:45:58 <HackEgo> 52) <oklopol> actually just ate some of the dog food because i didn't have any human food... after a while they start tasting like porridge \ 112) <fungot> ais523: elf corpses are not considered expensive health food. but the most expensive. \ 350) * perlmonkey is pursuing the line of reasoning that eating raw foods can improve cognitive function
15:46:00 <HackEgo> 86) <soupdragon> if you claim that the universe is more than 3D the burden of proof is on you to produce a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect <soupdragon> ^ I learned that trick from atheists \ 305) <monqy> my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes th
15:46:37 <int-e> `` grep 'pasta|spaghetti|macaroni|maccheroni|ravioli|fusilli|tortellini|noodle|tagliatelle' quotes | wc
15:46:48 <int-e> `` egrep 'pasta|spaghetti|macaroni|maccheroni|ravioli|fusilli|tortellini|noodle|tagliatelle' quotes | wc
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16:31:25 <b_jonas> I wonder if it's possible to program the GCC (ICFP esolang) in a procedural way such that you don't use the call stack except at startup to set up a large enough environment frame for all the registers you need
16:31:49 <b_jonas> then you just jump around the code with TSEL and use the environment as registers and work as if it was a register machine
16:32:12 <b_jonas> with the ST and LD instructions
16:32:38 <b_jonas> I think it is, which proves this is a multi-paradigm esolang
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16:49:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DocHerring * New user account
16:52:32 <ion> Are you taking a video? http://youtu.be/1ACpoOkNEcQ
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17:36:37 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl.
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18:12:44 <myname> somebody knows a bit about g8 and sbt and wants to tell me what i'm doing wrong on following a readme?
18:14:47 <myname> basically, i want to use https://github.com/ajhager/libgdx-sbt-project.g8 and get a bunch of errors on desktop/run
18:25:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ChelseaEthridge * New user account
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19:23:44 <zzo38> TOGA computer looks to be a really simple kind of computer, probably can be done with only a few 74xx series. How easily do you think a similar thing could be put into a Famicom cartridge?
19:25:59 <zzo38> Are there designations for how powerful a particular model of a finite state machine is? Such as how many steps need to be inserted when converting from an arbitrary finite state machine, and how many steps are inserted when converting into an arbitrary finite state machine.
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19:29:31 * impomatic_ is looking for a quote about paper, scissors, stone (preferable by John von Neumann)
19:32:42 <zzo38> I don't know of any such
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19:43:29 <Vorpal> There is no depmod on openwrt. What a pain
19:43:57 <Vorpal> So it doesn't realise that to load sd_mod it need to load scsi_mod
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20:11:41 <b_jonas> I have a non-esoteric question. Can you recommend me a good textbook on LR-variant parsers for context-free languages?
20:12:44 <b_jonas> I've borrowed the book (John E. Hopcroft, Rajeev Motwani, Jeffrey D. Ullman, "Introduction to Automata Theory, Languages, and Computation", 2nd ed, Addison-Wesley)
20:12:53 <b_jonas> hoping that it would be like that, but no
20:13:13 <b_jonas> it turns out that's an introductory textbook to formal languages, and says very little about LR parsing
20:13:30 <b_jonas> so please recommend me a good book
20:13:42 <b_jonas> I wonder where else to ask, hmm...
20:14:05 <nys> there's a room called ##parsers as a matter of fact
20:14:56 <b_jonas> nys: isn't that for existing parser software? I'm more interested in theory
20:15:03 <b_jonas> I think I'll try #haskell or maybe #haskell-blah
20:15:54 <b_jonas> but I'd prefer if you just gave a recommendation here
20:16:07 <nys> b_jonas, as far as i can tell it's filled with people that are interested in parsers and parsing
20:17:03 <fizzie> The Dragon Book has a chapter, I think.
20:17:29 <fizzie> It's a bit more generic-audience book than just parsers, of course.
20:18:31 <b_jonas> and I guess I'll ask ais specifically
20:18:40 <b_jonas> fizzie: let me look at that
20:19:00 <b_jonas> fizzie: which Dragon Book?
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20:19:56 <fizzie> b_jonas: "Compilers: Principles, Techniques, and Tools".
20:20:59 <b_jonas> is there a detailed TOC of that available somewhere?
20:21:30 <fizzie> http://www.pearson.ch/1471/9780321491695/Compilers_Principles_Techniques_and.aspx has one.
20:22:30 <b_jonas> "4.7 More Powerful LR Parsers" sounds great, thanks!
20:23:12 <b_jonas> let me check the library catalogs then
20:24:16 <shachaf> fizzie: what would "OHHEA, OHHEA !!!!" mean?
20:24:23 <shachaf> is it trying to be "onnea"?
20:24:51 <fizzie> Perhaps referring to the Cyrillic н?
20:25:17 <shachaf> whoa, i thought that was an H but it wasn't
20:25:42 <shachaf> it's actually "ОННЕА, ОННЕА !!!!"
20:26:12 <ion> shachaf: I was just about to say that perhaps it was ОННЕА.
20:26:51 <ion> https://translate.google.com/?source=osdd#auto/en/%D0%9E%D0%9D%D0%9D%D0%95%D0%90
20:27:26 <shachaf> i'm not sure that quite answers the question
20:27:40 <ion> you’re Not, sure
20:28:19 <ion> I’mn’t`ap`tail
20:29:03 <fizzie> My Russian dictionary doesn't know anything about "ОННЕА".
20:29:05 <b_jonas> found only one copy of the 2nd edition of "Compilers, principles, techniques and tools", and that one might not be possible to get
20:29:42 <b_jonas> fizzie: maybe it's not the dictionary form?
20:30:05 <fizzie> That's very possible; I only did one year of Russian, and forgot all about it. (Still, I would've expected to see at least something similar.)
20:30:13 <fizzie> Sometimes people do write Finnish transliterated to the Cyrillic alphabet "for the lulz".
20:30:23 <fizzie> In which case it would be "onnea", again.
20:30:31 <b_jonas> I might try to phone them in any case
20:31:07 <shachaf> the person who wrote this message is a finnish speaker who has learned russian within the past few years
20:31:51 <shachaf> the subject of the email was "HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!"
20:31:51 <fizzie> Do they also have a reason to congratulate you?
20:32:01 <shachaf> so it sounds like maybe "onnea" is appropriate
20:32:05 <fizzie> Well, in that case I'd go with my hypothesis.
20:37:45 <b_jonas> anyway, I'll ask for this but it might be unborrowable
20:39:30 <fizzie> My compiler textbook is Appel's "Modern compiler implementation in Java", but that's not my fault.
20:39:41 <fizzie> It's what our compilers course used.
20:40:05 <fizzie> There's a total of 13 pages about LR parsers.
20:40:34 <fizzie> It does explain the concepts, anyhow.
20:41:28 <hektor> btw do you have any tips on writing parser generators?
20:41:47 <zzo38> I have a book "Crafting A Compiler" which describes LR parsers.
20:41:49 <fizzie> With the (I think usual) progression of LR(0) -> SLR -> LR(1) -> LALR(1).
20:41:53 <b_jonas> I actually want to parse a language that's not even LR, so I'd prefer variants that aren't strictly less powerful than LR(n)
20:42:14 <impomatic_> Nothing really on my bookshelf. Several books just have a token 20-30 page section on LR parsers. The Red Dragon book has 32 pages.
20:42:17 <zzo38> Lemon is a LALR(1) parser generator.
20:42:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: are you sure? I had the impression that Lemon is an LL parser generator
20:42:58 <zzo38> I have used it, as well as made some modifications to it, so now it can also be used to parse some LR(1) grammars that aren't LALR(1) too, if you give it the commands to do so.
20:43:07 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, it is LALR(1).
20:46:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: Fisher, Charles N, "Crafting a compiler with C", Benjamin/Cummings, copyright 1991. is this it? and is it the latest edition?
20:46:25 <zzo38> No, that isn't it.
20:46:39 <zzo38> Although it is Benjamin/Cummings.
20:46:47 <b_jonas> ah wait, here's another one
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20:47:12 <zzo38> And it is written by Charles Fisher as well.
20:47:15 <b_jonas> Fisher, Charles N, "Crafting a Compiler", Benjamin/Cummings, cop. 1988
20:47:29 <zzo38> Yes, I think it is that one.
20:47:30 <b_jonas> maybe the title changed in the newer edition then?
20:47:48 <zzo38> It doesn't mention C much; most of the code in the book uses Ada.
20:47:55 <b_jonas> that older one isn't available
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20:48:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh, maybe it's rewritten or something
20:48:09 <b_jonas> let me try to search the net for info about this
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20:55:15 <b_jonas> http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~fischer/ says there's a revision of Crafting a Compiler
20:56:15 <b_jonas> why are all these books about compilers? I just want to parse language, I don't want to write a compiler
20:56:31 <zzo38> The book mentions parsing too, not only compiler
20:58:47 <Bike> most compiler books spend like half their time on parsing
20:58:50 <Bike> it's quite mysterious to me.
20:58:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * JArcane * New user account
21:00:55 <b_jonas> what? isn't the wiki still read-only?
21:01:10 <J_Arcane> I have no idea, I haven't submitted a page yet.
21:01:10 <fizzie> It's been back for almost two days already.
21:01:26 <fizzie> b_jonas: If you want a real classic, there's always http://www.amazon.com/Theory-Parsing-Translation-Compiling-Volume/dp/0139145567/
21:01:39 <b_jonas> fizzie: thanks, let me check that
21:02:15 <fizzie> It's also a compiler book, but it's a multi-volume set and the first volume at least claims (based on the name) to be about parsing only.
21:03:20 <b_jonas> ok, wait, what were the languages I wanted to mention on the wiki? Endo's DNA from a previous ICFP contest, and what was the other one?
21:03:52 <b_jonas> and maybe a stub for this year's ICFPc
21:04:06 <fizzie> (It's by some of the same people as the Dragon Books, so maybe it's redundant, who knows.)
21:04:17 <b_jonas> fizzie: sure, those people have lots of books
21:04:29 <b_jonas> the book I mentioned first are by them too, isn't it?
21:05:17 <fizzie> I guess there's some overlap there too, yes.
21:05:37 <b_jonas> wasn't there one more thing I wanted to add?
21:10:33 <b_jonas> what's the best name for that language? "Fuun DNA"? Fuun is the species apparently
21:10:55 <b_jonas> should I split it to two pages, "Fuun DNA" and "Fuun RNA"?
21:11:08 <Bike> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNsToEecC_M
21:11:46 <fizzie> @tell oerjan I don't know why, but it seems that sometimes the actual address record can have a TTL of three (3) days.
21:12:51 <fizzie> @tell oerjan ...now I'm not saying I'm certain, but this "$TTL 3D" line might have something to do with it...
21:13:34 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Long story short, the DNS propagation can take up to three days in the worst case. BAD LUCK.
21:14:05 <fizzie> I think perhaps I should drop that down to a more reasonable one day.
21:14:33 <fizzie> Or perhaps even 12 hours or something.
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21:21:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40175&oldid=39207 * B jonas * (+208) add more todo
21:25:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: Alfred V. Aho, Jeffrey D. Ullman, The theory of parsing, translation, and compiling, 1972. this is actually available
21:25:40 <b_jonas> if it's a classic, this might be what I should look at
21:26:35 <b_jonas> so first volume of that? ok
21:29:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[VIOLET]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40176 * JArcane * (+2936) Created page with " ''VIOLET'' (Verbose Interactive Operating Language for Educational Terminals) is an interpreted programming language alleged to have been the custom onboard language develope..."
21:30:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40177&oldid=40171 * JArcane * (+13) /* V */
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21:36:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[VIOLET]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40178&oldid=40176 * JArcane * (+2)
21:36:27 <fizzie> b_jonas: It's not so much a classic that I'd have read it. From the looks of it, it's quite a theory-oriented approach.
21:39:19 <lambdabot> fizzie said 27m 32s ago: I don't know why, but it seems that sometimes the actual address record can have a TTL of three (3) days.
21:39:19 <lambdabot> fizzie said 26m 27s ago: ...now I'm not saying I'm certain, but this "$TTL 3D" line might have something to do with it...
21:39:19 <lambdabot> fizzie said 25m 44s ago: Long story short, the DNS propagation can take up to three days in the worst case. BAD LUCK.
21:39:30 <oerjan> I KNEW IT, IT WAS ALL YOUR FAULT
21:43:35 <fizzie> It wioll haven be three days real soon now!
21:47:21 <fizzie> (Verb tense co-opted from http://sprunge.us/KOdb)
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21:58:46 <lambdabot> quicksilver says: zip`ap`tail - the Aztec god of consecutive numbers
21:59:59 <b_jonas> thanks everyone for the book recommendations
22:04:52 * oerjan points out http://onnea.ru/
22:05:01 <oerjan> i.e. it may be a company name.
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22:12:27 <Melvar> ( let x = Just 1 in do [1,2,3] !! !x
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22:28:07 <Taneb> I wanted to get an early night but I can't sleep
22:29:53 <b_jonas> Taneb: work on the icfp contest task then
22:40:52 <oerjan> ( let x = Just 1; y = Just 2 in do !x + !y + 3
22:40:53 <idris-bot> Can't resolve type class Num (Maybe b)
22:41:31 <oerjan> ( let x = Just 1; y = Just 2 in do 3 + !x
22:41:31 <idris-bot> Can't resolve type class Num (Maybe b)
22:42:07 <idris-bot> BotPrelude.(!!) : List a -> Nat -> Maybe a
22:42:32 <oerjan> ( let x = Just 1 in !x
22:42:33 <idris-bot> Can't resolve type class Num (Maybe b)
22:43:19 <oerjan> ( let x = Just () in !x
22:43:20 <idris-bot> (input):1:22:When elaborating an application of function Prelude.Monad.>>=:
22:43:50 <idris-bot> When elaborating an application of constructor __infer:
22:43:50 <idris-bot> Can't disambiguate name: Effects.>>=, BotPrelude.LiftEq.>>=, Prelude.Monad.>>=
22:44:31 <oerjan> idris is _so_ anti-play-around
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22:57:36 <Melvar> ( let x = Just 1; y = Just 2 in do return (!x + !y + 3)
22:57:36 <idris-bot> Can't resolve type class Num (Fin m)
22:58:26 <Melvar> ( let x = Just 1; y = Just 2 in do return (!x + !y + the Integer 3)
23:00:21 -!- ajf has joined.
23:00:26 <ajf> Rate my esolang: http://esolangs.org/wiki/DevPerc
23:00:33 <ajf> I’m prouder of this than I ought to be
23:01:48 <oerjan> and my dns to the wiki still hasn't updated.
23:02:09 <oerjan> although the name reminds me of Deviating Percolator
23:02:35 <oerjan> oh it's not a new page
23:02:48 <ajf> You knew its name? :D
23:02:56 <Melvar> oerjan: Bang bindings have to show up in a context-valued expression (Maybe in this case). “!x + !y + 3 : Maybe A” would imply “3 : Maybe A” and “x, y : Maybe (Maybe A)”.
23:02:59 <ajf> That makes me happy somehow
23:03:11 <ajf> oerjan: It’s a terrible name derived from thesaurusitis
23:04:22 <ajf> I suppose it has a certain charm…
23:04:24 <Taneb> More appropriate name than Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
23:04:37 <ajf> Also, the double-indirection of everything makes my head hurt if I try to code in it
23:04:43 <oerjan> Taneb: oh i'm not sure i'd go _that_ far
23:04:43 <elliott> I remember both that language and you.
23:05:14 <Taneb> oerjan, I didn't say /better/
23:05:21 <Taneb> Only more appropriate
23:05:39 <ajf> It’s a language in which there are 26 registers, A-Z, initialized at start with the ASCII chars A-Z. The source code is read as if it is made up of the characters in the named registers.
23:06:02 <Taneb> The most appropriate name for Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download I can think of is "LAMBDA", which is kind of sucky
23:06:06 <ajf> So if I set A to the ASCII value of B, “FOOBAR” is read as “FOOBBR"
23:06:22 <olsner> Taneb: how is the current name not the most appropriate?
23:06:45 <Taneb> olsner, because it is not at all indicative of the features of the language
23:06:54 <Taneb> Then again, neither is, say, "C"
23:07:20 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep).
23:07:46 <zzo38> Taneb: If "LAMBDA" is "kind of sucky", then it would be why you have to call it "Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download" instead (which also isn't very good, but it is there)
23:08:11 <ajf> I wonder if you could write useful programs in DevPerc by setting up a two-way pipe with sh
23:08:23 <shachaf> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is a great name
23:08:34 <Taneb> zzo38, it is called Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download because Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is its name
23:09:13 <ajf> I know, I should write a Nil interpreter in DevPerc
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23:09:50 <Taneb> I should try again to sleep
23:10:14 <oerjan> Taneb: that's a wholly insufficient reason, just ask any aged aged man
23:11:28 <ajf> If I take Lisp and implement it with JSON’s syntax, is it just awkward syntax, or could it be considered esoteric?
23:11:31 <boily> Taneb: retanelle. just lay on a mattress and stare at the ceiling through your eyelids.
23:11:46 <boily> oerjan: aged aged?
23:11:52 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 8h 32m 58s ago: I got an email saying "typo for antediluvian?" with a broken link to github. Does this have to do with you?
23:11:52 <lambdabot> shachaf said 5h 35m 27s ago: Oh, it's a private repository, so it shows up as 404.
23:11:52 <Taneb> boily, I try that but my neck hurts
23:13:05 <boily> shachaf: yes, it has to do with me, but if you received the email that means you have access to the repo. last time I checked you were among the cocoonspirators hth
23:13:34 <shachaf> But I wasn't logged in to github.
23:13:39 <shachaf> In fact I was doubly logged out.
23:13:56 <boily> you are a strange person.
23:14:35 <boily> oerjan: ifgi. tdh. t.
23:16:19 <oerjan> i thought we had a non-strange person in the channel but then i learned Vorpal works on cool robots
23:16:58 <shachaf> Surely there are nonstrangers in here.
23:17:14 <oerjan> maybe some of the lurkers.
23:17:45 <shachaf> boily: What's strange about me?
23:18:18 <boily> shachaf: you managed to be doubly logged out. that's anormal.
23:18:34 <oerjan> maybe shachaf has taken the red pill.
23:18:49 <shachaf> Oh. Well, I opened the link in an incognito window first.
23:19:04 <shachaf> But then I opened it in a regular window and it was still a 404.
23:19:58 <boily> ajf: are you strange?
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23:20:12 <ajf> boily: I am esoteric
23:21:59 <shachaf> copumpkin: hey, did you ever read that thing
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23:24:26 <oerjan> @tell fizzie <fizzie> I think perhaps I should drop that down to a more reasonable one day. <-- i vaguely sort of thought the idea was to reduce it when hosting is unstable.
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23:25:03 <oerjan> are we going to have a splitfest again
23:25:41 -!- metasepia has joined.
23:25:59 <boily> int-e: LAMBDABOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!
23:26:10 <oerjan> or possibly just ole lambda
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23:30:59 <shachaf> Oh, lambdabot isn't back in this channel yet.
23:31:14 <shachaf> I guess you don't rejoin all the channels at the same time.
23:31:22 <boily> yup, the netsplit has netsplat.
23:31:30 <boily> (or is it netsplut?)
23:31:32 <oerjan> indeed, lambdabot takes its time
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23:35:26 <oerjan> only yiyus got through unscathed
23:52:23 <zzo38> I should try to make more Pokemon Card puzzle, or other people should too, but, nobody (other than myself) has yet solved my most recent one.
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00:04:48 <Koen_> zzo38: I've heard you talking about those puzzles on several occasions, but I've never seen one
00:06:47 <zzo38> Koen_: Can you play Pokemon Card at all? I can show you the puzzles. See http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_card/puzzle.1 up to puzzle.5 and see terminology.txt for a glossary.
00:06:48 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:07:33 <zzo38> Do you understand any of them?
00:09:23 <Koen_> well I haven't played since I was 7 or 8
00:10:12 <zzo38> If you have questions about the rules, I can answer them.
00:11:47 -!- LUIS1 has joined.
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00:15:42 <zzo38> The file puzzle.4 is made by someone else, although the other four are made by me.
00:16:30 <Koen_> so the puzzle.n file describes a situation, and I must find winning moves?
00:17:48 <zzo38> You have to find winning moves regardless of what the irrelevant cards/quantities are and how coin tosses and other random things come up and how the opponent's decisions are made. However, the solution might fork in some cases based on such things.
00:21:56 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:23:38 <zzo38> Now perhaps you can see if you know the first one.
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02:34:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hpmorlist: not found
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02:41:53 <HackEgo> cat: bin/createlist: No such file or directory
02:42:04 <HackEgo> bin/danddreclist \ bin/emptylist \ bin/erflist \ bin/instalist \ bin/list \ bin/llist \ bin/makelist \ bin/mlist \ bin/olist \ bin/pbflist \ bin/slist \ bin/smlist \ bin/testlist
02:43:42 <Sgeo> Oh, there is an actual erflist?
02:44:15 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ "$#" -gt 0 ]; then printf '%s\n' "$*"; else cat; fi
02:45:31 <HackEgo> bin/forget \ bin/fortune \ bin/joustreport \ bin/morse-decode \ bin/ord \ bin/ordu \ bin/pastefortunes \ bin/print_args_or_input \ bin/rainwords \ bin/word \ bin/words
02:45:43 <oerjan> `cat bin/print_args_or_input
02:45:44 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ "$#" -gt 0 ]; then printf '%s\n' "$*"; else cat; fi
02:46:07 <oerjan> `run grep 'instalist` bin/*
02:46:08 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
02:46:15 <oerjan> `run grep 'instalist' bin/*
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02:48:48 <zzo38> O, hello, it broke temporarily after "`cat bin/instalist"
02:51:00 <oerjan> well there was some more HackEgo probing ending with me removing the file (as it was a redundant unused copy of bin/print_args_or_input)
02:52:02 <zzo38> O, so that's what it was. OK
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03:05:47 <elliott> the letters h p m o and r next to each other are banned now
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03:07:04 <oerjan> elliott: did it jump the shark
03:07:22 <elliott> it started well past the shark
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03:49:22 <Bike> I like HP more than I like IBM
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04:04:20 <lambdabot> EvilTerran says: the same place of nightmares that spawned zygohistomorphic prepromorphisms :P
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04:04:33 <oerjan> elliott: now you must kick lambdabot hth
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04:06:08 -!- oerjan has set topic: elliott bans category theory on channel | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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06:52:37 <zzo38> Can you please be more specific?
06:58:50 <prooftechnique> Monads considered endomorphisms in the category of harmful things
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07:57:29 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you know about monads in groupoids?
08:01:32 <HackEgo> :-( \ 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ moop.txt \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ unpa \ UNPA \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
08:01:44 <HackEgo> <ais523> oerjan: humans are very hard to anthropomorphise \ <Bike> i feel like i should say "sexual dimorphism" winkingly and then transmute myself into a horrid fleshbeast
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08:13:37 <zzo38> shachaf: No, I don't know; do you know?
08:14:01 <shachaf> zzo38: Vaguely but I was hoping that you would know more.
08:14:16 <zzo38> Well, at this time, I do not know.
08:14:51 <shachaf> I know what a monad in a group (1-object groupoid) is.
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09:23:50 <Vorpal> <oerjan> i thought we had a non-strange person in the channel but then i learned Vorpal works on cool robots <-- hm?
09:24:09 <Vorpal> Well I guess you could call the autonomous mining machines I work on robots
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10:02:51 <int-e> Ok, lambdabot; lambdabot got disconnected from its server 1:21 CEST and didn't manage to reconnect until about 9 minutes later.
10:05:02 <int-e> (it's using the chat.freenode.net rotation for DNS lookup, so it should find a working server eventually.)
10:05:49 <fizzie> fungot: Did you hear that? Why can't you figure out how to use DNS, too?
10:05:49 <fungot> fizzie: what do you want to compile
10:32:40 <int-e> fungot: fizzie wants to recompile you, I think
10:32:41 <fungot> int-e: so how does the model of concurrency employed by erlang termite, based on structures to open ( we'll get to this point in time
10:33:04 <int-e> "termite", brilliant.
10:46:34 <fizzie> I can't find "erlang termite" in my logs.
10:47:19 <fizzie> Oh, it's lost some punctuation. I wonder how that happened.
10:48:02 <fizzie> It's from <Riastradh> yome, what term would you use to refer to the model of concurrency employed by Erlang & Termite, based on the three primitives (SPAWN thunk) -> pid, (SEND pid message), & (RECEIVE) -> message, for asynchronous SEND & synchronous RECEIVE?
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11:40:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40179&oldid=39864 * 86.6.153.79 * (+133) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */
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11:51:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40180&oldid=40179 * Haael * (+898) /* Partially Silly Ideas */
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13:06:47 <oerjan> <fizzie> Oh, it's lost some punctuation. I wonder how that happened. <-- has anyone seen fungot use a &
13:06:47 <fungot> oerjan: but it's yucky!?! :p) then performed operations on it
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13:07:04 <oerjan> fungot: so that's why you don't use it?
13:07:04 <fungot> oerjan: oh well, it is very annoying
13:07:57 -!- oerjan has set topic: In which fungot reveals his burning hate of the ampersand | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
13:08:12 <myname> that semi-obscure language... is it called C?
13:08:30 <oerjan> fungot: wait what gender are you again
13:08:30 <fungot> oerjan: it is not a verb" without the problems i see are the use cases for having an assassin cat.
13:08:49 <oerjan> i know a gender isn't a verb, fungot
13:08:49 <fungot> oerjan: ( of course, this a trivial example
13:11:42 <boily> good morning tout le monde!
13:12:35 <boily> did elliott really ban CT on the chännel?
13:12:43 <boily> fungot: you are a fungot.
13:12:43 <fungot> boily: that woudl be hashsomething, not hashsomething, for latter is array indexes the former is quicker to type
13:13:52 <oerjan> he banned the letters h, p, m, o and r used consecutively, and without regard for order.
13:14:43 <boily> myname: those pesky letters that usually appear after words that begin with ana-, hylo-, cata-, zygo-...
13:15:53 <boily> (hm. the electrical wiring in my apartment is of a questionable reliability... every time the AC starts and is not just fanning around, the lights disquietely dim.)
13:17:33 <boily> also trans-, but those are beasts of a completely different colour.
13:18:06 <int-e> more basic, one has mono- and epi-. also endo-.
13:18:24 <oerjan> y'all keep forgetting iso-
13:18:25 <int-e> those kind of mor phism are not even scary.
13:19:00 <boily> careful int-e, you're toying with unknown evil forces here! (i'a i'a elliott fhtaghn!)
13:19:20 <int-e> we need more fisms!
13:19:39 <oerjan> i assume a space helps since elliott used that himself in the decree
13:20:38 <FireFly> fungot: what's your favourite character, then?
13:20:39 <fungot> FireFly: um... fnord. release notes is what i call an education!! why is everything separated into different modules ( and changed the parser a bit, e.g.
13:21:02 <oerjan> a character so rare it gets substituted by fnord, makes sense
13:21:02 <boily> is there a U+XXXX FUNGOT FNORD somewhere?
13:21:47 <FireFly> fungot's raised on release notes?
13:21:48 <fungot> FireFly: this is confusing me here though, getting pretty damn hard to move from the fnord with which it is restricted to 20k including the run-time, and possibly some other data structure), gets wrapped with the opening parens and do c-m q
13:22:24 <oerjan> myname: in this channel using that will _cause_ unbearable pain hth
13:24:41 <int-e> hmm, what about phorminges...
13:25:08 <int-e> but perhaps elliott is allergic to lyres, too.
13:25:42 <int-e> it's funny that discussing adjoints, and limits (like products, coproducts, pullbacks, pushouts, equalizers, etc.) is perfectly ok by elliott's decree.
13:26:37 <int-e> boily: plural of "lyre", hth
13:27:29 <boily> once again struck by a bout of naïveté. oh well. time to go get something to eat.
13:28:28 <myname> funny how people have problems with ä but are perfectly okay with ï
13:29:44 <boily> “... Afrikaans, Catalan, Dutch, French, Galician, Welsh, Southern Sami, and occasionally English...”
13:36:01 <oerjan> myname: well näiveté is just not right
13:37:33 <myname> oerjan: that wasn't what i meant
13:41:28 <boily> All vowels are born free and equal in diacritics and orthographies...
13:48:00 <int-e> but Ä is two vowels!
13:48:40 <int-e> It's like Æ, except the e is lower case and on top.
13:52:55 <int-e> nice illustration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Umlaut_Development.png
13:53:35 <int-e> schoen -> sch?n -> schön
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13:59:40 <HackEgo> [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0364 COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER E]
14:14:49 * oerjan still has no clue what elliott is talking about
14:16:10 <oerjan> i don't see where there should be a t
14:17:13 <oerjan> that's because you're näive
14:18:00 <boily> quinthellopi... what the... is that a 1 stapled to your name?
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14:18:29 <boily> aaaah, much better ^^
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14:19:28 <quintopia> what you doing here on a sat. morning
14:20:59 <elliott> int-e: because I have +o :P
14:22:52 <boily> quintopia: I had one fungotload of a week. Monday night was Douteux, Tuesday night I watched that X-Men movie with friends (I found it passably meh), Wednesday night we played GoT (and probably drank one too many beer), Thursday night I don't quite remember what I did Thursday, and yesterday I got to bed at 20:00.
14:23:08 <boily> fungot: yes, a metric fungot to be exact.
14:23:08 <fungot> boily: it'll seem like a really odd form of ' foo has no reasonable way to go from here
14:23:58 <boily> (what did I do Thursday night... where was I...)
14:24:31 <boily> I was at a friend's grilling stuff on the BBQ, then battling the stupid EFI on his computer.
14:25:55 <boily> quintopia: what did you weekdayed this week?
14:26:25 <elliott> I'm willing to take bribes to license various arrangements of h, p, m, o and r.
14:27:25 <boily> elliott: do you accept Canadian products?
14:27:38 <elliott> what kind of canadian products?
14:29:45 <J_Arcane> os it customary to wind up writing an esolang that you yourself can't follow?
14:29:59 <boily> elliott: you choice of bacon, a mug from Tim, or a can of syrup. (quintopia has exclusive rights on cookies.)
14:30:34 <boily> J_Arcane: if you want to achieve quality, yes.
14:31:26 <quintopia> boily: i've been up way to late every night struggling to stay on top of everything, figuring sleep is the least important thing
14:31:45 <quintopia> and then, when i finally have time to get things done, i waste it
14:32:05 <elliott> boily: I have trouble believing you'd actually ship these things.
14:32:15 <elliott> or that they'd get past customs without fuss if you did.
14:33:35 <J_Arcane> bioly: then it would seem I have achieved it, because I don't seem to be able to make sense of how to do a simple binary search in VIOLET.
14:34:32 <boily> elliott: I managed to ship edibles to quintopia, so why not? don't tell me you live in an unshippableto place?
14:35:04 <elliott> I suspect shipping things Canada<->US is easier than into the EU.
14:37:24 <boily> J_Arcane: if you know how to achieve that in BASIC, then know how to map it over to VIOLET, then it may be possible to do a binary search in the latter.
14:38:35 <elliott> boily: btw, are those mugs in some way special?
14:38:52 <J_Arcane> bioly: I think I just need to change my logic, yes.
14:39:03 <elliott> in fact, are any of those special? they don't sound very canada-specific :P
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14:39:58 <boily> elliott: Tim Horton's. our very own Canadian Cult!
14:44:45 <elliott> well, yes, but... it's just a mug, right?
14:50:16 <J_Arcane> There. Got it. https://github.com/jarcane/BlueBox/blob/master/guessthenumber.violet
14:51:33 <int-e> okay, now do the same thing except that the player is allowed to lie exactly once during the game
14:51:53 <int-e> (well. at most once)
14:52:33 <J_Arcane> Hmm. I know how to do a simple lie check (if correct = 0 but upper=lower), but that would be tricky.
15:00:23 <quintopia> boily: i slept until 3pm yesterday, and haven't slept since
15:03:00 <boily> one should invent the Instant Mattress. just add water and bam! a comfy mattress on which you can nap.
15:04:34 <J_Arcane> They kind of have those, but they're expensive and weight hundreds of pounds and take hours to fill. ;)
15:05:09 <quintopia> they also self-inflating mattresses which only require a power source. they weigh several pounds uninflated.
15:07:11 <boily> or go the Chinese way. forget any complex apparatii, and just declare this surface to be sleepable.
15:07:41 <quintopia> my favorite solution is the hammock
15:07:58 <J_Arcane> i lived with an air mattress for sometime.
15:08:09 <J_Arcane> damn thing started leaking almost from the day I bought it.
15:09:46 <quintopia> hence using the self-inflating one
15:10:11 <quintopia> if you wake up in the middle of the night half-sunk to the floor, just switch it on for a minute, and bam, back to normal
15:28:14 <quintopia> and a modafinil or suchlike zzzzzzz
15:29:22 <elliott> modafinil makes me feel a little weirdly queasy
15:29:55 <elliott> maybe cause I weigh nothing so I get too much of it in my bloodstream
15:30:57 <quintopia> i don't know how it makes me feel. maybe one day i will know. i doubt it would be noticeable because i weigh plenty
15:30:57 <boily> I just checked the The File. I have your weight listed as “(3 ?)”. care to explain?
15:31:14 <Melvar> Is that the one of which smaller amounts work better?
15:32:39 <elliott> quintopia: it's not as exciting a nootropic as people make it out to be. it just makes you more awake
15:33:19 <quintopia> i want to occasionally be able to correct my sleep schedule without my work suffering
15:37:14 <elliott> well I mean it's not really that it makes you more awake it just makes you feel like you need to sleep less. you're still about as tired but with more focus
15:39:16 <quintopia> so i won't spend all day wishing i was in bed and struggling to keep my eyes open?
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15:47:47 <nooodl> wow python's .format can do this: '{:0{}x}'.format(255,6) == '0000ff'
15:48:31 <elliott> quintopia: you know you can just buy it online right
15:48:49 <nooodl> "A format_spec field can also include nested replacement fields within it. These nested replacement fields can contain only a field name; conversion flags and format specifications are not allowed. The replacement fields within the format_spec are substituted before the format_spec string is interpreted. This allows the formatting of a value to be dynamically specified."
15:52:09 <quintopia> "the list of things that may happen someday"
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17:16:54 <ion> http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/07/24/the-sims-2-free-ultimate-edition/
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18:52:39 <fizzie> elliott: It probably won't help you sleep that much better, but I've now set up an automated esolangs.org backup (incl. a mysqldump), and also a thing to log the server network traffic, so that (after a month) I can have some sort of idea how much bandwidth it takes. (Extrapolating from 24 hours, 20 GiB/month.)
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18:55:44 <zzo38> OK, perhaps that can help.
18:56:54 <elliott> fizzie: bandwidth for the wiki or the backups?
18:57:12 <elliott> mostly esolangs.org is still really slow even though it works :P
19:01:24 <Vorpal> This might be old news to some, but I just found out google are running SPDY over UDP now (called QUIC). Interesting idea. But I can imagine all sorts of issues with NAT and proxies doing that hm
19:06:59 <fizzie> Bandwidth for everything, I didn't want to bother being more specific. So it will also include e.g. HackEgo.
19:08:22 <elliott> fizzie: I used way less than 20 gigabytes a month on linode, I think...
19:10:53 <fizzie> Possibly I can look a little bit closer on what it's made of. But 20 gigabytes is not terribly much.
19:11:24 <fizzie> I made the backups happen weekly, and it shouldn't account to all that much.
19:12:29 <fizzie> The gzip'd mysqldump is 66 megs, and the rsync probably doesn't take very many bytes.
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19:37:47 <Vorpal> elliott, is linnode good?
19:37:57 <Vorpal> I have been thinking about getting a VPS
19:38:11 <elliott> linode, digitalocean, prgmr, it's all fine
19:38:18 <Vorpal> I want a decent one that isn't massively expensive either
19:38:26 <Vorpal> Which is probably a case of "pick one"
19:39:46 <elliott> those choices are all affordable and decent
19:39:52 <Vorpal> elliott, hm they are all "pick a package" rather than "pick how much you need of each component" though
19:40:26 <Vorpal> I wonder why, because I need much more storage than CPU or memory
19:40:30 <elliott> the pricing is simple and fine. you can go for tilaa.com or whatever if you want to customise more but it'll probably correspondingly cost more.
19:40:54 <Vorpal> tilaa seemed quite reasonably priced when I checked it
19:41:14 <Vorpal> A bit too reasonably priced, which made me wonder what the catch is
19:41:28 <elliott> if you already have a provider in mind why ask me though?
19:41:47 <Vorpal> no I don't. I have looked at a few, but I'm indecisive
19:41:59 <Vorpal> That is why I'm asking you
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19:43:01 <elliott> 27 euros per month for 2 gig ram / 2x 2.4ghz / 40 gb ssd storage on tila. way more expensive than linode at under 15 euros a month for same ram, same cores (but idk about the clockspeed), 48 gb ssd
19:43:16 <elliott> though linode has a 3 tb transfer limit on that
19:43:28 <elliott> but still tilaa is a lot more expensive for comparable stuff
19:43:49 <Vorpal> Oh right, linnode uses USD, that is why
19:44:08 <elliott> I've made that mistake too
19:44:17 <elliott> thinking tilaa's prices were really cheap because I assumed they were in USD
19:45:01 <elliott> if you're happy with a mechanical disk then tilaa is only about a euro more than linode for that, but then the plans aren't comparable, so
19:45:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I basically need say 1-2 GB RAM, 1-2 cores and quite a bit of storage.
19:46:11 <elliott> but then a 320 gb mechanical disk with that is only 27.40 eur/month for tilaa, for linode you have to go up to a $160/mo plan to get that much storage (though it's more, and SSD)
19:46:17 <elliott> so yeah if you want lots of storage a customisable thing is reasonable
19:46:28 <Vorpal> Tilaa has unlimited transfer, which is nice, but linnode and digitalocean have more than enough transfer per month.
19:46:48 <elliott> transfer doesn't really matter unless you're using it as a seedbox or something...
19:46:49 <Vorpal> prgrm is cutting it a bit close
19:46:57 <elliott> I think linode lets you add storage separately
19:49:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm basically planning mail server + backup. Probably a simple web server too (because why not), but I don't expect much traffic. You really don't need massive CPU or RAM for such a use case. But you need a lot of disk for backup
19:49:34 <Vorpal> But maybe looking at some amazon storage cloud thingy would be better then. Not sure
19:50:37 <elliott> I wouldn't trust VPS storage for backup.
19:51:06 <elliott> like, you should back up your VPS. stuff is there for volatility or convenience reasons.
19:51:36 <elliott> so I'd just get a reasonably priced VPS and back up your mail and other stuff through whatever (tarsnap, maybe your VPS provider's backup offering if they have one...)
19:51:40 <Vorpal> Well to where? I need cloud based backup. tarsnap next?
19:53:07 <Vorpal> Well, tarsnap would end up expensive given the backup sizes I have (I estimated from my current rdiff backups)
19:53:22 <Vorpal> I guess encrypted files on dropbox or similar would be another option
19:53:27 <Vorpal> I wonder what that works out as
19:53:29 <elliott> tarsnap's deduplication reduces prices a lot compared to what you might think, but sure. there are flat-rate providers and stuff
19:53:49 <elliott> long-term archival storage has different priorities to a VPS anyway. you don't need instant access to it, you want it encrypted (and don't need the encryption keys in memory)...
19:54:28 <elliott> you can also just do non-cloud backup.
19:54:33 <elliott> with, like, actual physical objects.
19:55:11 <Vorpal> 100 GB Dropbox is 8.25 / month, Tarsnap is 25 USD / month for that (plus transfer).
19:55:21 <Vorpal> elliott, I do that, but what if there is a fire?
19:56:02 <elliott> then you have other problems. but you can probably find somewhere to store a redundant copy. Or get Iron Mountain to put it in a cave somewhere.
19:56:09 <Vorpal> elliott, I can't really put my disk in a bank safe after every backup. That is way to inconvenient as it would involve driving to the city (20 km each way)
19:56:29 <elliott> remember the deduplication effects when estimating tarsnap costs
19:56:43 <elliott> Vorpal: oh come on, the risk of a fire that destroys your disks is low enough that you can do it every N backups instead :p
19:57:40 <elliott> it is very cheap and very slow
19:57:49 <elliott> and nobody knows how it work
19:58:28 <Vorpal> Hm 3-5 hours... So probably tape or such?
19:58:30 <elliott> it's either tape. or blu-rays. or something.
19:58:48 <elliott> http://storagemojo.com/2014/04/25/amazons-glacier-secret-bdxl/ thinks the latter, but IIRC ex-amazon employees have hinted that it's tape?
19:59:19 <Vorpal> Well it makes more sense as tape IMO. Unless you use rewritable blurays I guess
20:00:46 <elliott> facebook store tons of things on blu-ray
20:00:54 <elliott> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/01/why-facebook-thinks-blu-ray-discs-are-perfect-for-the-data-center/
20:01:03 <elliott> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/01/facebook-uses-10000-blu-ray-discs-to-create-petabytes-of-cold-storage/
20:02:16 <Vorpal> elliott, I wonder how that will work with the "remove all my account and every trace of it" stuff that is going on currently
20:02:37 <elliott> you can throw away blu-rays.
20:03:02 <elliott> I don't think you're expected to delete accounts from backups though...
20:03:30 <Vorpal> Well yeah you can throw away blu-rays, but you would have to move all the other accounts on it elsewhere
20:03:36 <Vorpal> And perhaps you are right
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20:05:29 <elliott> copy-on-write is nothing new :P
20:06:15 <Vorpal> Well yeah, as long as you don't need to delete accounts from backups too. Depends on what the EU law makers decides at this point I guess
20:07:25 <elliott> deleting links from search engine indices isn't anything like obliterating accounts.
20:07:39 <elliott> google are even still allowed to link to the pages, just not in conjunction with the search terms.
20:07:44 <elliott> in fact it's /more/ data stored, not less
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20:15:34 <elliott> Vorpal: you could even purchase your own tape and do tape archives.
20:15:44 <elliott> probably not economical for low amounts of data though.
20:16:31 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah it is basically 1 TB or so across all my systems (for a full backup, add small incremental ones of a couple of GB on top of that)
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20:30:19 <Vorpal> .link is a TLD? How strange, wikipedia has no info on it
20:30:42 <elliott> Wikipedia probably can't keep up with gTLDs these days.
20:32:51 <Vorpal> Just looking at gandi for a available domain name, and .link showed up in that list
20:33:06 <Vorpal> I could go for .xxx XD
20:33:33 <Vorpal> Hm I found a nice .se one
20:33:55 <elliott> you should name it after something you like
20:34:20 <Vorpal> Well I tried my family name, but good luck with that.
20:34:28 <Vorpal> At least not for anything that I want
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20:36:05 <int-e> http://newgtlds.icann.org/en/program-status/delegated-strings
20:36:47 <int-e> I wonder whether there is a list linking those to registrants
20:38:43 <zzo38> Do you want a domain name consisting entirely of "x" and a few dots?
20:38:59 <zzo38> HOPE X has such a domain name.
20:39:15 <int-e> xxx is an existing TLD, of course
20:41:02 <int-e> weird terminology.
20:41:03 <Vorpal> Well, getting this domain for several years is cheaper
20:41:16 <Vorpal> Then the question is, will I actually want it in 8 years from now?
20:41:57 <elliott> domains do not cost enough for it to be worth caring about that.
20:42:16 <Vorpal> elliott, well that depends on the TLD and the domain. I expect some are quite expensive
20:42:38 <Vorpal> .ph is 48 EUR for 1 year for example, .se is 16 EUR for 1 year. For the same domain name here
20:42:57 <Vorpal> What the hell is .rocks anyway
20:43:11 <elliott> that's 10 euros a month for .rock
20:43:24 <Vorpal> Oh it is "landrush" which is apperently pre-ordering
20:43:25 <elliott> admittedly, a discount might be reasonable at that point
20:43:28 <Vorpal> So I guess that explains it
20:43:42 <Vorpal> Still .ph is quite expensive
20:43:42 <elliott> btw, 16 eur? I suspect .se is less expensive from another registrar.
20:44:03 <Vorpal> elliott, hm maybe, what other registrar is good then?
20:44:15 <Vorpal> I want a good registrar with DNSSEC
20:45:08 <elliott> I don't know. easyDNS, namecheap, name.com, dynadot. there's tons
20:45:57 <elliott> no, I was listing bad registrars. what do you think?
20:46:20 <elliott> ok, easyDNS is actually more expensive than 16 eur, heh.
20:46:42 <elliott> they're probably one of the most competent registrars though
20:46:47 <Vorpal> godaddy is slightly cheaper, but I heard so much bad about them
20:47:05 <Vorpal> About 14 EUR at godaddy
20:47:27 <int-e> HIV as a TLD, hmm.
20:47:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I know, I just wanted to check what they would charge for some random .se
20:48:40 <int-e> http://my.personal.website/home/page.html
20:48:56 <Vorpal> So still more expensive
20:49:28 <Vorpal> dynadot doesn't do .se it seems
20:49:41 <elliott> ".website is the first true generic domain launched in the new era of the internet." come on, try harder. you want .internet for true genericity
20:50:04 <elliott> or, I guess you don't necessarily need to point a domain you've registered at something accessible on the internet?
20:50:18 <zzo38> Yes, that would be true, although both .internet and .website are too long.
20:50:20 <int-e> Vorpal: how about .eu
20:50:30 <zzo38> If it isn't accessible on the internet, you don't need a TLD.
20:50:30 <elliott> (there's .domains, but...)
20:50:38 <elliott> zzo38: but you still could.
20:51:01 <elliott> I mean, maybe some RFC tells you to SHOULD NOT have a domain with only records pointing to stuff off the internet, but.
20:51:12 <zzo38> Since, you can then use local addresses instead, if you are not using internet.
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20:52:05 <zzo38> Maybe for generic you should instead use ".gen" for generic?
20:52:44 <Vorpal> Wow. .nu is quite expensive ("nu" means "now" in Swedish, so you end up seeing it quite often, like .to for English speaking sites)
20:54:32 <int-e> oh, there's .foo and .bar (the latter probably went together with .pub though)
20:54:35 <zzo38> But I think more pseudo-TLDs should be needed, such as .ipv4 to tell it always use IPv4 even if IPv6 is available, and .ipv6 to create a local IPv4 address which connects to a IPv6 so that it is usable in IPv4 only software (as well as IPv4 only operating systems, if .ipv6 is implemented in the router), and .option to set options for the connection.
20:55:12 <Vorpal> elliott, Hm this is weird, 1 and 2 years have the same price per year (16 EUR) then 3-10 all cost 13.6 EUR per year
20:55:34 <elliott> Vorpal: they're probably counting on you to not bother doing division.
20:55:58 <Vorpal> The only reason to go for more than 3 years would be if you expect prices to go up during that time
20:56:15 <elliott> the volatile domain markets.
20:56:46 <Vorpal> elliott, is it? I don't know
20:56:53 <Vorpal> It would be useful to know if it is
20:57:20 <zzo38> You should have other pseudo-TLDs too such as .tty and .usb and so on.
20:57:52 <int-e> .zip has been suggested somewhere
20:58:00 <Vorpal> I wonder if it is gandi or the Swedish country registrar doing that stupid pricing model...
20:58:31 * Vorpal looks at some of the other options...
20:59:10 <Vorpal> .link and .ninja: No discount at all. .fr doesn't allow anything but 1 year even
20:59:40 <Vorpal> Hm seems most of those that allow several years don't do discounts
21:01:19 <zzo38> I don't like (non-pseudo) TLDs for type of service, since that is what subdomains and port numbers are for, therefore ".website" is no good.
21:02:14 <zzo38> Do you think my ideas are better than the existing confusions?
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21:02:35 <int-e> I agree, .website is awful.
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21:03:06 <int-e> I brought up .hiv because I imagine that it would be hard to market for personal use.
21:05:34 <int-e> But it belongs to an organisation called "dotHIV" and they write: "The new domain ending .hiv will bring new momentum to the fight against AIDS."
21:08:38 <myname> .zip is an awesome TLD for all these virus sites
21:13:12 <int-e> they also have about 2000 pending applications for gTLDs, .zip is one of them
21:14:29 <zzo38> With such pseudo-TLDs to make up such things as telnet://778-555-1212.modem.tty/ and telnet://com2.tty/ and 9p://device1.usb/ and so on.
21:15:57 <zzo38> Since if you are using operating system which uses "Peripheral Device Over Ethernet" and you want to use USB ports in the computer, then you would need a .usb pseudo-TLD for this purpose.
21:16:16 <zzo38> Since they are not connected to the ethernet port!
21:17:35 <int-e> you can use different DNS record types. there are quite a few already: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_DNS_record_types
21:17:42 <int-e> no need for a pseudo TLD
21:21:02 <zzo38> I don't see how using different DNS record types would help here.
21:21:23 <Vorpal> So many contracts to read through, gah
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21:31:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I now own vorpal.se. Time to decide on a VPS
21:33:37 <Vorpal> Hm, where is the DNS zone editor in this web GUI, since it is currently using gandi for the primary DNS server
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21:36:36 <Vorpal> But that is quite a confusing interface
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21:48:59 <Vorpal> <int-e> But it belongs to an organisation called "dotHIV" and they write: "The new domain ending .hiv will bring new momentum to the fight against AIDS." <-- doubtful that it will have any effect at all
21:54:46 <Vorpal> The output of the dig command is quite obtuse
21:54:59 <Vorpal> I can't tell if it was a success or failure
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22:13:37 <fizzie> Tilaa's SSD premium is/was quite a lot, I think.
22:13:49 <fizzie> (I've been looking at the backscroll.)
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22:16:22 <fizzie> And it's a failure if it's missing an "ANSWER SECTION".
22:16:44 <fizzie> (Also the 'status:' field, but that's quite well-hidden in the headers.)
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22:21:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, what authoritative dns server do you recommend?
22:22:35 <fizzie> I don't have a recommendation, but personally I've been sticking with BIND.
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22:44:30 <Vorpal> Gah the crickets are so loud
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23:01:23 <zzo38> Hi, what do you want, please?
23:05:20 <fizzie> DNSSEC with BIND can be slightly obscure.
23:06:18 <fizzie> Though the 9.9 series adds inline signing.
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23:16:58 <myname> so, i want to make json stuff over tcp with haskell. google said, i might use aeson. now i am in bytestring hell
23:21:19 <Taneb> I am not used to this larger monitor
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23:27:36 <Vorpal> Taneb, how large is it?
23:27:53 <Vorpal> I'm using one 24" and one 22" monitor atm
23:28:34 <Vorpal> At work I have two 24" plus the built in 15" in the laptop in use at the same time
23:28:54 <Vorpal> Taneb, how large monitors are you used to then?
23:29:05 <Vorpal> Since I find 24" a quite nice size
23:29:17 <Vorpal> Heh, couldn't live with such a small monitor these days
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00:30:31 <zzo38> My computer monitor has a picture size slightly more than 13x10 inches.
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01:03:52 <zzo38> Do you have a C program to implement each step of a NMOS 6502 which is public domain (or other GPL-compatible)?
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01:24:35 <Bike> http://www.6502.org/tools/emu/ ?
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01:33:39 <zzo38> No, I cannot find it there.
01:36:42 <Taneb> I don't want to sleep there are some sort of bugs here
01:38:11 <zzo38> lib6502 does not implement each cycle individually and implements the CMOS version, not NMOS.
01:38:46 <zzo38> I would wanted one that acts as a state machine, too.
01:39:37 <oerjan> there was an old Taneb who swallowed a fly
01:39:54 <zzo38> I have used lib6502 and it is suitable for the application I used it for, but now I have a different application therefore it is not suitable.
01:39:59 <Taneb> oerjan, I don't mind bugs etc individually
01:40:12 <Taneb> But there seems to be thousands of them, by which I mean at least three
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01:41:43 <Taneb> There's a smallish moth, what I think is a crane fly
01:41:52 <Taneb> And a lot of very small insects
01:48:45 <Taneb> I will try to sleep!
01:57:37 <zzo38> I found a file called "fake6502.c" which is almost exactly what I am looking for: It is public domain, runs one step one at a time (exec6502 function), and even includes the "UNDOCUMENTED" and "NES_CPU" defines which are what I require. However, it does not actually implement each step individually (it executes the entire instruction during the first step), and doesn't do some minor things such as INC first writing the old value and then the new v
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02:00:09 <zzo38> It also does not appear to implement interrupt latency correctly.
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02:21:06 <zzo38> I don't care if register accesses happen during the correct cycle, since that does not affect anything external. However, all I/O should happen during the correct cycle.
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03:26:44 <newsham_> zzo38: are you familiar with visual6502?
03:37:36 <zzo38> newsham_: I think I have heard of it.
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04:04:26 <zzo38> How many states would a cycle accurate NMOS 6502 VM have?
04:04:50 <zzo38> (Counting only the states for instruction execution, not such things as registers and flags and so on.)
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04:11:07 <zzo38> Will GCC perform extra optimizations on things declared as static (including possibly changing the calling conventions)?
04:42:52 <shachaf> zzo38: If it sees that a function is only used once, it can inline it when it's static.
04:43:03 <shachaf> (And it does in this small example.)
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04:51:06 <zzo38> I suppose it can't if it is used as a function pointer in a table, though.
04:55:21 <zzo38> But can such static optimization ever do anything else?
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08:23:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Extended Foo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40181&oldid=12703 * Rdebath * (-30) A rnd(n) function is not sufficient for the language to be considered nondeterministic.
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08:30:08 <fizzie> zzo38: There was a project to add more interprocedural things to GCC than just in inlining some years ago, but I don't know what came of it.
08:31:52 <fizzie> It was supposed to learn about things like constant propagation and side effect tracking across functions, and I guess maybe static could add more freedom for that sort of stuff.
08:35:09 <fizzie> Oh, and with the profile-guided stuff, also a kind of partial inlining where a short most-likely-to-run part is inlined at call sites while unlikely code is done with a function call.
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08:36:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Intolerant]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40182&oldid=14844 * Rdebath * (+74) /* Implementation */ new section
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08:47:31 <fizzie> Well, would you look at that, it actually does that.
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08:51:35 <fizzie> http://paste.ubuntu.com/7873236/
08:52:14 <fizzie> (Probably does not apply to your function-pointer-in-a-table scenario, of course.)
08:53:24 <fizzie> (I also like how it has grokked that the test has proven rdi to be zero, so it is enough to move a value to dil.)
08:55:55 <fizzie> (Also the only effect of "static" in my pasted example is whether it also adds a http://paste.ubuntu.com/7873266/ or not to satisfy potential external callers; it does the same partial inlining for a, b, c anyway.)
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09:34:57 <Vorpal> <fizzie> It was supposed to learn about things like constant propagation and side effect tracking across functions, and I guess maybe static could add more freedom for that sort of stuff. <-- static certainly does affect what GCC does from what I remember.
09:35:41 <Vorpal> But indeed, it doesn't help if you use function pointers to it
09:35:50 <Vorpal> Unless GCC has gotten real clever
09:41:01 <fizzie> I'm sure it can eliminate function pointers in trivial cases (like if you replace func(); with void (*f)(void) = func; f(x); ) but probably not if it's a table and a computed index to it.
09:41:43 <fizzie> The inline-only-a-little-bit trick was neat.
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10:47:02 <coppro> does anyone know anything like grep, but to work for binary data?
10:47:13 <coppro> I don't need regexes, just string search that handles arbitrary bytes
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11:41:49 <FreeFull> coppro: Do you need the location inside the file, or do you just want to know if it matches?
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14:27:18 <TieSoul> what does that even do? randomly insert "ello" in there?
14:27:46 <boily> something like that.
14:27:59 <TieSoul> somewhere with an 'o', preferably, it seems
14:28:21 <boily> well. it has an algorithm in it. it does stuff.
14:28:36 <TieSoul> I want to figure out its semantics :P
14:28:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: et: not found
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14:31:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ̀`: not found
14:31:15 <boily> aaaaurgh. the shortcut ain't be workin anymore.
14:31:34 <TieSoul> two vowels at the begin means 'hell' is added to the start
14:32:32 <HackEgo> [U+0060 GRAVE ACCENT] [U+0300 COMBINING GRAVE ACCENT] [U+0060 GRAVE ACCENT]
14:33:03 <Melvar> I thought that line looked fishy.
14:33:16 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env node \ // Generated by CoffeeScript 1.6.2 \ (function() { \ var consonant_then_o, ell_manglable, ends_with_consonant, ends_with_consonant_then_vowel, name, starts_with_o; \ \ name = process.argv[2]; \ \ if (!(name != null ? name.length : void 0)) { \ console.log('Usage: ello <name>'); \ process.exit(); \ } \ \
14:33:47 <boily> uhm. wut? once it was written in ruby, then now it's... coffeescript??? who the fungot wrote that?
14:33:47 <fungot> boily: fnord/ index2.htm apparently lets you order various printed reference manuals for current sunos object files and reference manuals for free
14:34:24 <TieSoul> can someone tell me what the heck is that code?
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14:38:52 <elliott> okay so who the fuck... was it sgeo
14:38:54 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
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14:42:05 <Melvar> Really? No “Mellovar”?
14:43:23 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `bin/{node,ello}': No such file or directory
14:43:40 <elliott> I don't know what that program does but it is not a Look Around You reference and I therefore don't care about it
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14:49:27 <boily> I have this urge to mapole elliott, but I'm a sane person and won't act upon it.
14:49:52 <elliott> I am infinitely more powerful than you, and your mapole.
14:51:10 <boily> I concur. all hail our ellioverlord!
14:51:30 <elliott> your hailing means nothing to me.
14:52:18 <boily> if hail doesn't work, will snow or sludge do the job?
14:53:31 <elliott> I anticipated that joke and decided not to make it.
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15:09:05 <TieSoul> okay, I'm going to try and make Eitherfuck, with [ and ].
15:09:11 <TieSoul> could I still call it Eitherfuck?
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15:27:01 <boily> TieSoul: I think it'd be more eithery if you implement either [ or ].
15:27:28 <TieSoul> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eitherf*ck
15:27:37 <TieSoul> wow the link is cut off because of the *
15:32:01 <TieSoul> it just compiles to brainfuck then executes that.
15:32:06 <TieSoul> wasn't hard at all to make
15:34:03 <TieSoul> in any case, I've been implementing too many Brainfuck derivatives lately
15:34:09 <TieSoul> I need to come up with some new idea
15:36:58 <boily> I find the more mind-screwey esolangs out there are those that eschew traditional arithmetic, and need you to combine stuff together in unconventional ways to achieve basic tasks.
15:37:14 <boily> if you haven't had your brains smashed yet by underload, now is as good as ever.
15:37:37 <boily> (also, malbolge, because malbolge.)
15:38:58 <myname> TieSoul: i do think if yiu make to much bf you will lose the ability to come up wuth something new
15:45:50 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/ello
15:46:08 <fizzie> I don't mind spoling myself... except it didn't work.
15:47:30 <myname> i don't get the koöakoski sequence
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16:01:24 <boily> myname: you're either on an estonian, finnish or swedish keyboard layout.
16:01:41 <boily> (or probably swiss.)
16:02:09 <boily> darn again. today is not my day.
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17:08:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dc]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40183 * Rdebath * (+5003) I've been meaning to create this page for a while.
17:10:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dc]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40184&oldid=40183 * Rdebath * (+7) The universe did not start in 1993
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17:40:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40185&oldid=40180 * Rdebath * (+433) /* Physics */
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18:35:15 <ais523_> Microsoft provide a download-to-run-on-another-computer installation of the Windows 8.1 SDK
18:35:35 <ais523_> however, they don't provide it as a download
18:35:41 <ais523_> instead, you have to install and run a program to get hold of it
18:35:45 <ais523_> let me see if it works in Wine
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18:39:40 <ais523_> Microsoft simply do not seem to understand that some people might not have an Internet-connected Windows computer to use on which they can run arbitrary programs
18:39:56 <ais523_> my issue is that all the Internet connections I can use are locked down in some way or another
18:43:26 <ais523_> well, apparently the boot timed out, and now it's pegging three CPU cores
18:43:36 <ais523_> with no visible progress other than "modify_ldt: Invalid argument"
18:46:24 <elliott> ais523_: they do understand, they just don't care
18:46:33 <elliott> (it is, after all, the Windows 8.1 SDK)
18:46:54 <ais523> elliott: because if they want people developing for their system
18:47:01 <ais523> then they will need to make that possible
18:47:15 <elliott> ais523: obviously not, plenty of people develop for windows 8.1
18:47:23 <olsner> I wonder if LDT means local descriptor table (maybe your presumably-linux system is locked down somehow that doesn't work with wine)
18:47:35 <elliott> microsoft don't care either way whether you do or not... the kind of people who want to use the windows 8.1 sdk but don't have an internet-connected windows computer are insignificant to them
18:47:42 <elliott> because they're all weirdos like you :P
18:48:05 <ais523> @tell oerjan I consider the top-level "load more comments" at the bottom of the page to load the second page of comments, I guess that's terminology that's a little inaccurate
18:48:39 <ais523> I wonder if Visual Studio still a) has the SDK bundled, and b) has an offline install that actually works
18:48:41 <ais523> if so I could use that
18:49:09 <ais523> also, they removed cl.exe from the SDK :-(
18:49:37 <ais523> which is actually pretty bad news if they didn't move it somewhere else, because it makes it impossible to write a cross-platform makefile that uses the Microsoft toolchian
18:49:45 <ais523> they're basically forcing people to use mingw instead
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18:50:18 <elliott> I do not believe that the command-line compiler is gone. not in the slightest
18:50:57 <ais523> but the way you get it isn't the same as what it used to be, so to use it, I'll need to find out the new method
18:51:06 <zzo38> Well, I do use MinGW at least; since you can then use GCC whether the program is on Windows or on Linux.
18:54:10 <ais523> hmm, the entire Visual Studio download process redirects between several pages, each of which requires JavaScript to display anything but a "this doesn't work without JavaScript" message
18:55:24 <boily> something, somewhere, went horribly wrong.
18:55:40 <ais523> and now it thinks I have cookies disabled even though I accepted them
18:55:49 <ais523> let me try this in Chromium
18:56:03 <ais523> my non-locked-down browser
19:08:24 * boily gently pokes ais523. “so, what happens next?”
19:09:40 <ais523> whatever happens next is still happening
19:09:53 <ais523> Wine's now pegged three CPUs for half an hour
19:09:56 <ais523> I think I'm going to kill it
19:10:44 <ais523> and I did manage an ISO download via Chromium, even though I had to reset the password to my Microsoft Account in the process because I couldn't exactly remember what it was
19:10:53 <ais523> was lucky I even figured out which email address I must have used
19:14:05 <ais523> If you haven't already, your next step is to get a FREE Visual Studio Online account, with Visual Studio Online you can
19:14:07 <ais523> Create and host private source code repos in the cloud, including Git.
19:14:08 <ais523> Keep yourself and your team on track with agile planning tools.
19:14:10 <ais523> Invite others to collaborate on your project.
19:14:55 <ais523> I am annoyed enough at Github trying to make a code hosting site into a social media site
19:15:10 <ais523> up to this point, it hadn't even crossed my mind that someone might try to make an IDE into a social media site
19:19:18 <int-e> pair programming is obsolete, crowd programming is the future?
19:21:33 <int-e> "private", "cloud", hmm.
19:22:14 <boily> I like pair programming.
19:24:01 <int-e> oh well, microsoft has always been good at vendor lockin.
19:24:30 <Bike> s/cloud/butt/g, hth.
19:38:12 <zzo38> ais523: I don't care, because Github is not the only code hosting site, for one thing.
19:38:27 <ais523> zzo38: well, I use Gitorious for my git hosting
19:38:37 <ais523> but have to use Github for work
19:39:02 <ais523> Bike: apparently there have been major issues caused by cloud-to-butt, especially people failing to turn it off during tech support conversations
19:45:34 <zzo38> Do you know of Fossil version system though? Some people prefer it over git.
19:48:19 <ais523> I often use darcs for my own projects
19:48:31 <boily> there are people besides sqlite using fossil?
19:48:52 <zzo38> I don't know, but I have read somewhere who suggests that a few people do.
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21:35:23 <ais523_> OK, so I got Visual Studio Express 2013 installed
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21:35:40 <ais523_> apparently, the offline installer works, however it will only install a 30 day free trial without Internet access
21:36:50 <ais523_> this is a regression from Visual Studio Express 2011
21:39:09 <ais523_> official word from Microsoft: http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/vstudio/en-US/7d376cfb-5b2c-4542-acea-02dab2a03c69/offline-activation-of-visual-studio-2013-express-license-has-expired?forum=visualstudiogeneral
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22:06:45 <Vorpal> ais523_, hm why? The express version is free, so there is no point in doing a trial of it
22:07:54 <ais523_> Vorpal: I think Microsoft want usage data, and are prepared to force people to connect to the Internet every 30 days to get it
22:08:11 <ais523_> or maybe to make it inconvenient to use in businesses so that people buy the paid version
22:09:18 <Vorpal> Well, not sure it is inconvenient require internet every 30 days
22:09:43 <Vorpal> Most people writing code probably is on internet sometime in any given 30 day span
22:10:00 <Vorpal> Unless of course it needs internet exactly every 30 days (rather than a sliding window)
22:12:15 <fizzie> I don't think it even needs internet every 30 days.
22:12:21 <fizzie> Just once during the initial 30 days.
22:13:35 <fizzie> Which might still be a problem for some sort of "no unfettered internet connection on this server" kind of scenario, as alluded to in that discussion thread.
22:14:59 <fizzie> You mean the reply? I guess the "extend the license beyond the trial period" is a bit vague.
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22:16:13 <lambdabot> ais523 said 3h 28m 7s ago: I consider the top-level "load more comments" at the bottom of the page to load the second page of comments, I guess that's terminology that's a little inaccurate
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22:16:31 <fizzie> Another random forum post says "-- will extend the "trial period" by a further 90 days each time you do it --".
22:17:46 <fizzie> "The trial period for Express editions of Visual Studio is also 30 days. To indefinitely extend the trial period for Express editions of Visual Studio, sign in to Visual Studio or register the product." http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/gg442061.aspx
22:17:55 <fizzie> "Internet access is required to register and unlock any edition of Visual Studio. After Visual Studio is registered, though, an internet connection is optional."
22:18:32 <fizzie> I guess that's still slightly ambiguous, since I don't know what "registering" means.
22:18:47 <fizzie> And the "indefinitely extend" might still mean something to be done repeatedly.
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22:20:57 <fizzie> There's a 34-page "Visual Studio and MSDN Licensing White Paper" but it only briefly mentions the Express products.
22:21:06 <fizzie> It's a good thing they haven't made the licensing complicated.
22:23:18 <HackEgo> Binary file bin/lua matches \ Binary file bin/luac matches \ Binary file bin/macro matches \ Binary file bin/ploki matches \ Binary file bin/tclkit matches \ Binary file bin/udcli matches \ Binary file bin/units matches
22:23:52 <oerjan> `` grep 'env node' bin/*
22:28:12 <oerjan> @tell boily i'd like to recommend fueue. it _has_ somewhat traditional arithmetic, and *still* screws your mind.
22:29:12 <oerjan> @tell boily as in, programming in fueue starts at the point where you already master underload.
22:32:26 <oerjan> yay i can see the real wiki
22:32:48 <oerjan> myname: which kolakoski sequence were you having trouble with?
22:34:25 <ais523_> I like the way that Fueue uses entirely digits and punctuation, apart from one letter
22:34:45 <myname> i just cannot figure out how to read it so that it is run-length encoded
22:36:20 <oerjan> myname: it gives only the run length, not the actual digits, which always alternate between 1 and 2
22:37:31 <myname> that actually makes sense
22:38:36 <oerjan> > fix$([1,2]++).drop 2.concat.flip(zipWith replicate)(cycle[1,2])
22:38:37 <lambdabot> [1,2,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,2,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2...
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22:44:20 <myname> somebody asked for a language that seems easy enough to try writing problems in it whilst not being hard enough to just generate them
22:44:28 <myname> i.do think fueue qualifies for thaz
22:45:38 <ais523_> INTERCAL probably counts too, at least only very simple INTERCAL has been generated
22:45:48 <ais523_> because its everything-is-global style is hard for code generators to reason with, really
22:45:51 <ais523_> I mean, more global than that
22:46:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40186&oldid=40166 * Oerjan * (-15) You don't get to make redlinks if you don't know the alphabet.
22:47:19 * oerjan isn't sure if ais523_ is interpreting myname backwards or not
22:47:40 <ais523_> oerjan: oh, I interpreted it half-backwards
22:47:53 <ais523_> "easy enough for humans to still be able to write in it, while hard enough that code generators are bad at targeting it"
22:49:10 <oerjan> myname: i wrote most (all?) of the fueue programs, without a generator, although it would probably have been much simpler to make a generator for all the delaying stuff.
22:49:31 <oerjan> well, less work all over.
22:49:50 <ais523_> oerjan: now I'm wondering what a Fueue self-interp would be like
22:50:04 <ais523_> err, one with eigenratio > 1, that is
22:51:24 <oerjan> some other languages i _did_ write generators for, like Emmental.
22:52:10 <oerjan> and /// when i programmed with only / and \
22:52:26 <ais523_> I thought only / and \ made /// easier
22:52:29 <ais523_> fewer characters to escape
22:52:39 <oerjan> ...the other way around.
22:53:09 <oerjan> / and \ are the characters that _always_ must be escaped.
22:53:29 <ais523_> oerjan: oh, I mean, when copying
22:53:31 <oerjan> but that i could have done with just some vim substitution.
22:53:35 <ais523_> you have to have copy code for every character in your program
22:54:17 <oerjan> ais523_: i can assure you almost everything about programming /// becomes easier when you can use non-/\ characters.
22:54:25 <ais523_> maybe that's what I was doing wrong
22:54:33 <ais523_> I was also working on an infinite loop in ///
22:54:39 <ais523_> and decided that / and \ only was easiest
22:54:48 <ais523_> I mostly gave up before you started
22:54:50 <oerjan> but the real hard part with programming just /\ by hand is of course that you cannot possibly read it.
22:55:15 <elliott> you need syntax highlighting.
22:55:46 <ais523_> oerjan: that was also a problem, yes
22:56:01 <oerjan> ais523_: mind you, the _principle_ of an infinite loop isn't much different with just /\ than without, you just get more succinct and readable with other characters.
22:56:05 <ais523_> esolangs seem particularly prone to write-only code
22:56:21 <ais523_> oerjan: I pretty much had the principle figured, just couldn't translate it to code
22:57:18 <oerjan> however /\ adds extra complications like that you need your escaping tokens not to clash accidentally with other code.
22:59:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pure BF/Implementation]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40187&oldid=27434 * Ais523 * (+76) add download link, because constructing one of those in MediaWiki is pretty hard if you don't know how; the text/css is a famous workaround to the IE text/plain XSS bug, explaining the details probably wouldn't fit in the edit summary
23:01:09 <ais523_> <VIOLET on Esolang> and the dreaded GOTO statement, here particularly problematic because line numbers aren't hard set but based on file position
23:01:25 <ais523_> that's utter genius, why did no esolang think of that before? (SORTED almost counts)
23:01:55 <ais523_> although I'm not 100% sure those code samples are public domain
23:02:19 <ais523_> and those categories are really suspicious
23:02:30 <oerjan> ais523_: oh i see what you mean with "copy code for every character in your program", that's like in the first loop i wrote, and i suppose for that having just /\ _might_ simplify things. but the later method based on quoting tokens is definitely easier with more characters.
23:02:53 <ais523_> ah right, I forgot about that new method
23:09:55 <oerjan> @ask zzo38 You added [[Uncontrollable]] to the Joke Language List, but there is no such article. Do you have a link or description?
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23:15:04 <ais523_> This program by Ørjan Johansen loops indefinitely, (slowly) printing longer and longer lines of asterisks. <-- I actually use that as my test to see if a language is probably Turing-complete
23:15:26 <ais523_> if it can do that without any features obviously designed to let it do that in particular, then it seems very likely to be TC
23:18:13 <oerjan> ais523_: now prove unlambda TC with only `rcd.* >:)
23:18:44 <oerjan> (that's famously enough to do that task)
23:19:12 <oerjan> yes, so i guess you can leave them out or replace by i if you want
23:19:13 <ais523_> so I think `cd would be a much more interesting subset
23:19:39 <oerjan> well .* and r have the same pure effect part as i
23:19:40 <ais523_> this is like subtle cough but actually interesting
23:20:09 <oerjan> (note: i don't actually believe that this _is_ TC, but you might surprise me like i did with underload)
23:20:47 <ais523_> oh, the point is that it's enough to do the longer-lines-of-asterisks, but not obviously enough to show TCness?
23:20:47 <oerjan> oh and the d's can be replaced by i's as well
23:21:13 <oerjan> (but the program is usually shown with d's for added weirdness, i guess.)
23:21:24 <ais523_> d might make a difference for TCness as a whole
23:21:48 <ais523_> one problem with d is that its semantics are really hard to get your head around and I'm not 100% sure all interps implement it correctly
23:21:56 <ais523_> do you have one that's known to get it right?
23:22:07 <oerjan> yeah that seems likely. in fact pretty sure, because without it you just have subtle cough + i, which i'm pretty sure i've proved gives only 1 more program
23:23:55 <oerjan> i've never had problems with d with the distribution's C interpreter (that has a bug with e though)
23:24:21 <ais523_> how can you get /e/ wrong?
23:24:46 <oerjan> which curiously means that afaik, you can use my unlambda self interpreter to correct the problem, because e is the _only_ function i don't self-implement :P
23:25:46 <ais523_> but if e is buggy without self-interpreting, and you use the same buggy e, wouldn't it still be buggy?
23:26:23 <oerjan> i said e is the only function which my interpreter _doesn't_ implement in terms of itself.
23:26:37 <ais523_> oh, I misinterpreted "self-implement"
23:26:41 <ais523_> does it interpret it in terms of c?
23:27:14 <oerjan> yeah, i pass the top continuation around, and that's equivalent to e.
23:27:43 <oerjan> i originally did this to have the theoretical possibility to embed the self-interpreter in another program.
23:28:11 <oerjan> by passing a less top continuation instead.
23:28:37 <ais523_> that's why I thought you did that
23:31:49 <oerjan> also, the C interpreter has a EOF == char 255 bug in some circumstances, which is particularly important when iterating my interpreter (thus there's the .unl2 version which drops the 255 character from the character table)
23:32:39 <oerjan> (basically it does ye olde saving getchar into a char thing)
23:41:58 <oerjan> i suppose i should also be able to vouch for the haskell unlambda interpreter, since that's based on my code.
23:43:40 <oerjan> (i'm _pretty_ sure haskell unlambda interpreters already existed when i wrote mine, but it still is what got into hackage.)
23:45:20 <oerjan> i've occasionally pondered writing one which _doesn't_ use a continuation monad, but instead is thoroughly reified so you can print all terms.
23:45:43 <elliott> you could CPS-transform, even, I guess?
23:45:47 <oerjan> (including continuation terms, using the notation i invented on the wiki)
23:46:30 <oerjan> well it should be easy, it would basically be the data structure i already used in the INTERCAL one
23:46:53 <oerjan> (which _had_ to be thoroughly reified, given my then INTERCAL knowledge)
23:47:25 <oerjan> elliott: CPS-transform doesn't give you printable continuations.
23:47:40 <elliott> oerjan: it does as long as your functions are printable?
23:48:13 <elliott> CPS transform might be weird with d or whatever though I guess.
23:48:54 <oerjan> i _did_ manage it in the Ocaml "compiler". afair it handles d and CPS transforms.
23:49:43 <oerjan> well for a certain value of handles.
23:51:19 <oerjan> although the real way of looking at this is really as graph rewriting.
23:52:26 <oerjan> or to put it weirder, a continuation is the same as an expression zipper.
23:53:41 <oerjan> with some limitations on where you can have not yet evaluated expression parts.
23:54:40 <oerjan> (although you could say d somewhat relaxes that limitation again)
23:55:58 <elliott> `addquote <oerjan> or to put it weirder, a continuation is the same as an expression zipper.
23:56:00 <HackEgo> 1213) <oerjan> or to put it weirder, a continuation is the same as an expression zipper.
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00:11:08 <oerjan> also one thing i realized when thinking about this; instead of thinking of d as an annoying special case it may be worthwhile to expand its special treatment to _more_ functions: continuations, e (which is really just a continuation as mentioned above) and i all can be implemented more efficiently that way.
00:12:40 <oerjan> e.g. when evaluating `<cont><expression> you can throw away the outer continuation and replace it by <cont> _before_ evaluating the expression.
00:16:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dc]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40188&oldid=40184 * Oerjan * (+0) the page title isn't a section, also bold
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00:17:46 <oerjan> i think this, if we have it at all, should go under the recent idea of a Category:Honorable, together with at least bancstar
00:17:51 <ais523_> huh, I'm reading MSVC's list of compiler-dependent behaviour
00:18:08 <ais523_> and it lists unions as being "unreliable" for type-punning
00:18:31 <ais523_> compared to gcc, which says that it reinterprets the bit patterns
00:18:37 <ais523_> I wonder if it does some sort of union behaviour I don't know odf
00:19:02 <ais523_> this also implies that two fields of the same type aren't interchangeable in MSVC, at least officially
00:22:15 <ais523_> btw, I like the current Esolang description of d
00:22:22 <ais523_> it makes it pretty clear how to implement it
00:23:33 * oerjan finds http://stackoverflow.com/a/252568/1088108 which says it _is_ undefined behavior
00:23:42 <ais523_> it's basically i that evaluates second argument before first, rather than first arg before second
00:23:49 <ais523_> oerjan: it's implementation-defined behaviour
00:23:53 <ais523_> which MSVC defines as undefined
00:28:15 <oerjan> ais523_: note that it is still a bit tricky because the d of the expression can result from evaluation itself, e.g. ```kdi `.*i `./i
00:28:28 <oerjan> !unlambda ```kdi `.*i `./i
00:28:52 <oerjan> !unlambda `` ``kdi `.*i `./i
00:29:01 <oerjan> !unlambda `` ``kii `.*i `./i
00:29:29 <ais523_> you have to evaluate the function first to determine what to do with the arguments
00:29:37 <ais523_> in particular, how many arguments it needs and which order to evaluate them in
00:29:55 <ais523_> I'm coming to the realisation that unlambda is much simpler if you interpret it as varargs rather than as curried
00:30:28 <oerjan> well d is the only function which doesn't evaluate its first argument before getting another one
00:32:04 <ais523_> didn't realise that it was visible whether S evaluated its first argument given no second argument or not
00:33:36 <oerjan> i have in fact concluded, but never properly checked, that it is possible to check a function for equality to d without other side effects
00:34:15 <oerjan> (and that is the _only_ thing you can find out about a function without risking side effects)
00:34:52 <ais523_> hmm, can you check `d`ei for equality to d without risking the program being exited?
00:35:27 <ais523_> as soon as it gets any argument at all, the `ei is going to execute, so you can't apply it to anything
00:35:53 <oerjan> the _argument_ gets evaluated before the `ei
00:36:09 <oerjan> and it can raise a continuation so that never happens
00:36:16 <ais523_> whereas `ei would exit the program immediately
00:36:22 <ais523_> but you have no way to pass it to your d-checking function
00:36:44 <oerjan> well by function i mean an already evaluated function, not an expression.
00:37:27 <oerjan> `ei isn't already evaluated.
00:39:25 <oerjan> while `d`ei can be considered evaluated, since evaluating it alone has no side effects.
00:41:37 <oerjan> it seems i wrote my idea to use ' for already evaluated functions in the meta-notation section. so that would be 'd`ei (the second ` still remains since d freezes expressions, not just functions)
00:50:44 <oerjan> !unlambda ``` ``s`kc ``s``s`ks ``s``s`ks k `k``si`kk `k``si`k`ki d `.ni `.yi
00:51:17 <oerjan> !unlambda ```` ``s`kc ``s``s`ks ``s``s`ks k `k``si`kk `k``si`k`ki d .n .y i
00:51:27 <oerjan> !unlambda ```` ``s`kc ``s``s`ks ``s``s`ks k `k``si`kk `k``si`k`ki `d`ei .n .y i
00:54:23 <ais523_> and in this case, you can detect d by giving two arguments and seeing which evaluates first
00:54:35 <oerjan> (hand expanded from ^$f`c^$c``$f`$c k`$c`ki
00:54:42 <ais523_> now I'm wondering if it's possible to write a k that doesn't evaluate its second argument at all in Unlambda
00:56:30 <oerjan> erm the expanded part being ``s`kc ``s``s`ks ``s``s`ks k `k``si`kk `k``si`k`ki, the actual testing function returning church bools
00:58:51 <oerjan> the only way at all to apply a function to an argument without evaluating it is if the function is d. but how do you get `k x to be d and still contain x
01:03:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunk]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40189&oldid=40173 * Oerjan * (-20) /* External resources */ format
01:05:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Replacefuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40190&oldid=40170 * Oerjan * (-23) /* External resources */ format (I don't think we need subsections unless this expands greatly)
01:07:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Topsy turvy]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40191&oldid=40174 * Oerjan * (-24) Doesn't need a section, and intros shouldn't start with a section heading anyway
01:09:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[VIOLET]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40192&oldid=40178 * Oerjan * (+15) /* Links */ format
01:11:59 <ais523_> oerjan: opinions on the VIOLET code samples and copyright status?
01:12:58 <oerjan> oh i didn't consider that
01:18:26 <ais523_> best to replace them with a link, if they're readily available online
01:19:28 <oerjan> i suspect the repository owner is the same as the wiki user adding them
01:20:07 <oerjan> i also greatly suspect ("buttech"?) this is all a joke, so that nobody but his copyright is really involved.
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01:20:40 <ais523_> btw, the categories on VIOLET are all wrong
01:20:54 <ais523_> the 2014 also looks wrong, but if it's correct, the copyright is fine
01:21:05 <oerjan> which means that he did grant us the license implicitly when copying to the wiki.
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01:21:35 <oerjan> as i said, i doubt there ever existed a buttech in the real 1980s.
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01:30:24 * oerjan cannot quite decide whether violet counts as thematic or not.
01:35:37 <oerjan> do we have a way to do spoiler warnings in esolang?
01:37:00 <Sgeo> What needds to be spolererered?
01:37:21 <oerjan> i thought it would be bad form to say outright that violet is a joke
01:38:07 <oerjan> i'm leaving a note about the license issue on the talk page, which requires mentioning that.
01:40:22 <oerjan> ...of course it requires a bloody extension.
01:41:40 <oerjan> ais523_: elliott: do you know a way to do that?
01:42:16 <elliott> you can do like <span style="text-color: transparent"> or something. maybe transparent won't work there
01:42:21 <elliott> hardcoding the background is a bit iffy but I guess you can.
01:42:24 <elliott> then people have to select it.
01:42:30 <elliott> oerjan: oh, you have CSS access
01:42:55 <elliott> .spoiler { outline: 1px dotted #eee; opacity: 0 } .spoiler:hover { opacity: 1 }
01:43:02 <elliott> then make a template to add <span style="spoiler"> or something
01:43:14 <ais523_> ooh, is it actually possible to type <span now?
01:43:20 <elliott> it has been since early 2012.
01:43:23 <oerjan> i don't think we need a template yet
01:43:30 <elliott> oerjan: note that this won't work on, say, lynx. :p
01:43:40 <elliott> .spoiler:before { content: 'Spoiler: '; font-weight: bold } might be good too.
01:43:59 <oerjan> ais523_: yeah once elliott got _actual_ antispam measures working it wasn't necessary any longer
01:46:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40193&oldid=37995 * Oerjan * (+140) Add a way to do a spoiler
01:49:17 <oerjan> hm it's not showing as a spoiler in the edit window
01:50:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Sandbox]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40194&oldid=39394 * Oerjan * (-52) testing spoiler style
01:51:05 <oerjan> elliott: it is not working for me
01:52:44 <ais523_> oerjan: did you remember to reset your cache?
01:52:57 <ais523_> you don't have to wipe the whole cache
01:53:11 <elliott> oerjan: try changing outline to border at least
01:53:36 <oerjan> i don't see any Spoiler: before it either btw
01:54:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40195&oldid=40193 * Oerjan * (-9) possible fix
01:55:23 <oerjan> still nothing. is <span style="spoiler"> correct?
01:56:03 <oerjan> and moreover, do any of _you_ see Esolang:Sandbox as something spoileriferous?
01:57:26 <oerjan> maybe it gets overruled by somewhere else (skins?)
01:58:19 <oerjan> elliott: ais523_: do you see something in Esolang:Sandbox?
02:03:41 <ais523_> oerjan: it looks like it would if the text hadn't been spoiled at all
02:03:57 <oerjan> so the css has no effect.
02:06:28 <oerjan> hm the dom browser tells me it becomes <span style="">
02:07:41 <oerjan> i was just about remembering that
02:08:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Sandbox]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40196&oldid=40194 * Oerjan * (+0) maybe use the right keyword
02:08:45 <oerjan> hm now it works, although the spoiler:before is useless as it's also hidden :P
02:10:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40197&oldid=40195 * Oerjan * (+9) try this again
02:10:56 <elliott> set opacity: 1 on the :before
02:11:51 <oerjan> what space, and where do i put !important
02:12:21 <elliott> try "dashed" instead of dotted for the outline maybe
02:12:31 <oerjan> there is already a space after Spoiler:
02:13:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40198&oldid=40197 * Oerjan * (+17) further refinements
02:13:43 <oerjan> apparently you cannot use in the string
02:13:53 <oerjan> i mean, in the css code
02:15:07 <oerjan> the outline also only shows when hovering
02:15:58 -!- ZuuJellyBaby has changed nick to Zuu.
02:16:00 <oerjan> oh and the Spoiler: didn't become visible with opacity: 1 anyhow
02:16:23 <oerjan> although there's an obvious solution, just make that template.
02:18:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40199&oldid=40198 * Oerjan * (-77) simplify instead
02:19:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40200&oldid=40199 * Oerjan * (-26) this doesn't show until hovering anyway
02:20:19 <oerjan> now it's rather minimal
02:23:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Spoiler]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40201 * Oerjan * (+51) let's see if this works
02:23:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Sandbox]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40202&oldid=40196 * Oerjan * (-17) Jetzt mit Templaten
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02:28:03 * oerjan spots a typo so ridiculous he just has to leave it there
02:28:41 <oerjan> is the wiki slow, or is my template causing it to croak?
02:30:19 <elliott> the wiki is always slow these days.
02:31:35 <oerjan> yes, but now i've got triggered that "the universe is trying to tell you not to create this page" feeling :(
02:32:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40203&oldid=40200 * Ehird * (+107)
02:33:27 <oerjan> elliott: you realize you just broke my template
02:34:02 <elliott> yeah, but if it works you can make the template better.
02:35:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40204&oldid=40203 * Ehird * (+16)
02:36:25 <oerjan> the inner Spoiler: is still not showing without hovering
02:36:42 <elliott> I can never tell when my cache is cleared :/
02:36:44 <oerjan> now at least i see an outline.
02:37:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40205&oldid=40204 * Ehird * (+10)
02:39:37 <ais523_> elliott: the sandbox gives me one spoiled and one unspoiled Spoiler: prefix
02:39:37 <oerjan> can we remove that stupid inner Spoiler: , the template is actually handling that bit perfectly well if the CSS doesn't mess with it
02:40:00 <elliott> oerjan: this way is better because it doesn't copy.
02:40:14 <ais523_> the added Spoiler: has to be outside, though
02:40:28 <ais523_> the warning saying it's a spoiler can't sensibly be spoiled
02:40:33 <ais523_> or you'd have to spoil yourself to know it's a spoiler
02:40:35 <oerjan> elliott: i have no idea what you're talking about
02:41:23 <elliott> the fact that the inner one is transparent is a bug.
02:41:23 <elliott> Do Spoiler: spoilers work?
02:41:23 <elliott> as you can see, the :before one does not copy when text is selected. I consider this a feature, since it is cosmetic styling.
02:41:30 <elliott> (and the spoiler doesn't exactly work at all when you move to plain text.)
02:42:09 <oerjan> elliott: i can assure you that IE copies the :before one just fine hth
02:42:53 <elliott> no other browser does it like that that I know of
02:42:53 <oerjan> the only difference now is that yours is inside the outline
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02:45:18 <ais523_> it's not as broken as it was, but it's still ugly
02:45:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Spoiler]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40206&oldid=40201 * Oerjan * (-15) ehird insists on putting this in the CSS
02:46:14 <oerjan> ais523_: how does the sandbox look now?
02:46:50 <ais523_> the text that's meant to be spoiled is spoiled; the "Spoiler:" prefix is always visible (this is what was wrong with an earlier version), but is /inside/ the dotted box
02:47:27 <elliott> I don't insist on it. you can do it however you'd like.
02:47:36 <elliott> I think the spoiler text being part of the box is better.
02:47:41 <elliott> having it interrupt the text is weird.
02:47:48 <oerjan> ais523_: i'm having a bit trouble with your first sentence as i suspect spoiled means the opposite of how you are using it
02:47:51 <elliott> (in the line before that one.)
02:48:32 <ais523_> spoiled as in it's not shown by default because it's a spoiler
02:48:32 <oerjan> elliott: i actually agree
02:48:32 * ais523_ mentally adds this to the list of words which are their own opposites
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02:51:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:VIOLET]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40207 * Oerjan * (+457) Let's see if the universe will let me save this this time (Warning: SPOILER)
02:56:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Intolerant]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40208&oldid=40182 * Oerjan * (+45) People seem to have the strange idea these are optional
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02:59:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40209&oldid=40205 * Ehird * (+245) let's try pointless fanciness given how much time and fuss this has taken up anyway
03:02:07 <ais523_> elliott: it doesn't look any different
03:02:23 <elliott> I don't believe you. you have the old thing cached.
03:02:35 <elliott> I do not think it is possible for that CCS to produce, say, a dotted border.
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03:05:05 <ais523_> I can only conclude that there's some sort of time lag involved
03:05:13 <ais523_> that does look better, anyway
03:05:20 <ais523_> (I used the same method to cache bypass each time)
03:08:38 <elliott> yes, there does appear to be server-side caching
03:21:55 <oerjan> <ais523> up to this point, it hadn't even crossed my mind that someone might try to make an IDE into a social media site <-- maybe the backlash in favor of anti-social media sites is nigh
03:27:33 <FireFly> Someone tried to make an IDE into a social media site?
03:27:51 <ais523_> yes, Microsoft and Visual Studio
03:28:15 <ais523_> to the extent that Visual Studio Express has to be connected to the Internet every 30 days (or at least once within 30 days) to function
03:29:09 <oerjan> i don't think that particular fact suffices for a "social media site"
03:29:27 <ais523_> not something that made me form the opinion
03:29:31 <ais523_> I pasted the actual reasons a while back
03:29:46 <ais523_> [20:14] <ais523> If you haven't already, your next step is to get a FREE Visual Studio Online account, with Visual Studio Online you can [20:14] <ais523> Create and host private source code repos in the cloud, including Git. [20:14] <ais523> Keep yourself and your team on track with agile planning tools. [20:14] <ais523> Invite others to collaborate on your project. [20:14] <ais523> And so much more!
03:30:09 <ais523_> note: you need a Windows Live account to download Visual Studio in the first place
03:30:19 <ais523_> and then they want you to create a separate Visual Studio Online acconut
03:34:12 <ais523_> the "including Git" strikes me as implying that Microsoft want to copy the success of Github somehow
03:40:12 <ais523_> you know: let's see if VS2012 is still available
03:40:21 <ais523_> that would solve half the issues with VS2013
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03:55:23 <oerjan> it was up but slow just a while ago
03:55:44 <oerjan> ok the server is not down
03:55:59 <oerjan> ( HackEgo is on the same server )
03:55:59 <idris-bot> (input):1:31: error: expected: "!!",
03:56:56 <oerjan> the main admin is probably sleeping at the moment
03:57:07 <oerjan> (and the other one is even harder to get hold of)
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03:57:28 <Donald_ET3> Any clues as to what is happening right now?
03:59:17 <oerjan> that it gets occasionally slow is recurring enough. we had a more serious longterm issue until a few days ago, but that seems to have been resolved.
03:59:34 <oerjan> and as long as HackEgo responds it is not entirely dead
03:59:52 <ais523_> Esolang was working like half an hour ago
04:00:03 <ais523_> but yes, now seems to be down
04:00:19 <Donald_ET3> When I ping the URL, it comes back from "c1105889-5122.cloudatcost.com". So, it must be hosted by someone else?
04:00:26 <ais523_> make it more like one hourr
04:00:37 <ais523_> Donald_ET3: pretty much all websites are hosted on virtual servers nowadays
04:00:43 <ais523_> and for most people, that implies a hosting company
04:01:14 <ais523_> oerjan: can that seriously escape the sandbox?
04:01:28 <Donald_ET3> So, is it the hosting company's fault?
04:01:34 <oerjan> ais523_: i just wanted to see if it was still there
04:02:06 <oerjan> if it said anything useful
04:02:27 <oerjan> Donald_ET3: we don't know.
04:02:38 <oerjan> i think that was the `uptime finally responding
04:02:49 <ais523_> HackEgo runs shell commands
04:02:53 <oerjan> Donald_ET3: just that it's the simplest way to get HackEgo to confirm it's working
04:02:56 <ais523_> and "echo" is one of the simplest shell commands, and thus the most reliable
04:03:29 <oerjan> it may seem that HackEgo is also very slow now, for anything more complicated than echo
04:04:04 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
04:04:15 <Bike> network commands have blacklists or whatever
04:04:24 <Bike> not network ping, obviously
04:04:47 <oerjan> Donald_ET3: yeah outgoing connections from the bot are censored
04:05:54 <HackEgo> :-( \ 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ moop.txt \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ unpa \ UNPA \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
04:06:38 <ais523_> the root directory gets full of all sorts of random things
04:06:43 <oerjan> also, HackEgo has a bit weird syntax. you need to use `run if you want commands with more than one parameter or shell features
04:07:13 <oerjan> i try to clean up occasionally. it's been worse.
04:07:40 <ais523_> `run for x in `seq 1 5`; do quote; done
04:07:46 <HackEgo> 1084) <boily> btw, ^v, what are your approximate geographic coördinates and body weigh? <^v> 300 and USA <boily> nice to see that ^v is keeping with the spirit of the channel by providing completely useless answers to the question. \ 284) <pikhq> o.O <pikhq> There's a birth defect which results in the formation of a cloaca. <Gregor> It's cal
04:08:22 <ais523_> hmm, the shell-feature version of the 5-`quote doesn't seem quite as effective
04:08:44 <oerjan> line length limits do tend to do that
04:09:22 <HackEgo> 284) <pikhq> o.O <pikhq> There's a birth defect which results in the formation of a cloaca. <Gregor> It's called "not being a mammal" :P
04:09:37 <oerjan> ^v: so is your approximate body weigh still USA?
04:09:58 <^v> oerjan, i legidamately dont remember saying that
04:10:26 <FireFly> It's the same for me with that one quote
04:10:40 <oerjan> i cannot disprove it either since HackEgo lost access to the logs
04:10:52 <^v> sounds familiarish
04:11:11 <^v> might have been years ago
04:11:22 <HackEgo> 692) <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, "fungott" would [...] remind people of elliott. <fungot> fizzie: now that could be nice for a simple language can be used
04:11:25 <HackEgo> 652) <MDude> A quick look as WIikipedia ways that Wicca is a specific form of paganism related to witchcraft. <MDude> That agrees with what I know from that Scoobie Doo movie with the wiccans in it.
04:11:30 <HackEgo> 141) <alise> i like to imagine their mangled limbs.
04:11:38 <ais523_> wow, this is a particularly bad set of quotes
04:11:58 <ais523_> I'd be in favour of deleting them all but 1084
04:12:58 <elliott> all the quotes are terrible, and should be deleted.
04:13:16 <oerjan> i believe custom is you can only delete one, hth
04:13:58 <ais523_> even if I had to read 692 twice before it became vaguely funny
04:14:05 <oerjan> yeah this alise was a horrible person
04:14:17 <ais523_> and only then the only amusement value is that it's possible to misinterpret fungot as insulting elliott, which isn't actually that funny
04:14:18 <fungot> ais523_: so the cycle is. in emms.el a few
04:14:40 <elliott> oerjan: then let's get deleting quickly.
04:15:00 <HackEgo> *poof* <alise> i like to imagine their mangled limbs.
04:15:47 <oerjan> i'm sure there's some hilarious context that we've all forgotten.
04:16:08 <Donald_ET3> BTW, esolangs.org seems to be back up.
04:18:17 <oerjan> maybe it was doing some maintenance script
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05:52:31 <fizzie> Not the fastest VPS around.
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10:45:05 <lambdabot> oerjan said 12h 16m 52s ago: i'd like to recommend fueue. it _has_ somewhat traditional arithmetic, and *still* screws your mind.
10:45:05 <lambdabot> oerjan said 12h 15m 52s ago: as in, programming in fueue starts at the point where you already master underload.
10:46:08 <boily> @tell oerjan it sounds like a wonderful source of pain. I'll have to try to write something in it.
10:46:46 <boily> @tell oerjan <oerjan> `delquote 141 ← would you like me to unmangle the PDF too?
10:49:34 <boily> @tell oerjan re. fueue: uhm. well. uuuuh... some other day perhaps. ow.
10:52:48 <fizzie> I keep mentally confusing Fueue and Fugue.
10:55:39 <Taneb> boily, if you have any questions about Fueue, don't ask me, I only wrote the language
10:57:44 <boily> fizzie: I currently am in a post-confused state.
10:58:06 <b_jonas> "post-confused state" hehe
10:58:06 <boily> Taneb: same with aubergine. I wrote it, but other understood it.
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12:23:40 <J_Arcane> Does this count as an esolang? http://spel.sourceforge.net/info/spel.html
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16:21:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nest]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40212&oldid=34611 * 199.116.52.89 * (-119) /* External resources */
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17:14:38 <TieSoul> I made a kind of shell for all the languages I've implemented. Should I put it in my userpage or make a new page for it?
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17:31:29 <quintopia> link to it from all the languages it supports
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17:33:44 <TieSoul> and I do plan on adding more languages
17:34:12 <quintopia> i have been thinking about making a universal esolang IDE/interpreter in python
17:34:32 <quintopia> i even went so far as making a list of all languages that already have extant python interps
17:34:48 <quintopia> but i never went so far as actually starting the project ;P
17:35:01 <Vorpal> I'm trying to work out how to tunnel ssh over http/https (to by pass a proxy at work). But it seems nginx doesn't support doing that :/
17:35:18 <Vorpal> And I already use nginx
17:35:24 <TieSoul> you can add Befunk and Replacefuck to that list.
17:36:00 <TieSoul> as well as Eitherfuck. I implemented it yesterday
17:38:25 <quintopia> i can't find the eitherfuck wiki page
17:38:48 <int-e> it's called eitherf*ck
17:38:58 <TieSoul> and my interpreter is not on it yet
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17:44:32 <TieSoul> I'd rather the shell use interpreters I made though :P
17:45:17 <quintopia> in that case we'll not add code to it!
17:45:51 <TieSoul> You can fork it if you really want to expand on it
17:46:05 <quintopia> can we unilaterally change the name of eitherf*ck to eitherfuck? it would make it easier to talk about and search for
17:47:14 <Bicyclidine> available names for eitherfu*k depend on your pwd
17:48:28 <int-e> take it, it's free
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17:52:00 <TieSoul_> oh btw the shell is incredibly lazily made.
17:52:08 <TieSoul_> https://github.com/TieSoul/Multilang
17:55:06 <elliott> Vorpal: can't you just run ssh on the https port?
17:55:18 <elliott> or does the firewall actually check you're doing TLS properly?
17:55:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Quintopia]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40213&oldid=38316 * Quintopia * (+94)
17:59:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Replacefuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40214&oldid=40190 * TieSoul * (+137) Multilang
18:00:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40215&oldid=39057 * TieSoul * (+114) Multilang
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18:06:34 <TieSoul> What language should I implement? :P
18:07:05 <TieSoul> I don't understand eodermdrome too well :P
18:14:26 <Koen_> TieSoul: http://esolangs.org/wiki/When
18:14:41 <Koen_> you should totally implement that
18:14:58 <Koen_> "deque" is short for double-ended queue
18:14:59 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: can't you just run ssh on the https port? <-- that used to work, but it doesn't any more
18:15:04 <TieSoul> there's so much info on that wiki page!
18:15:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess it checks that it is actually TLS data
18:15:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Spiral]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40216&oldid=38317 * Quintopia * (-3) /* Errors */ finally got annoyed by this grammar error enough to fix it
18:15:19 <Koen_> it's basically like a stack or a queue or whatever, except you can push and pop from any side
18:15:38 <TieSoul> oh well that's easy to implement.
18:16:16 <Koen_> TieSoul: the author's description of the language in the linked mailing list is rather straightforward
18:16:28 <Vorpal> elliott, it is worth trying again I guess though, on my VPS instead of my home server. Could be it blacklisted connecting to dynamic ips perhaps? I don't know
18:17:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I wonder if a plain http proxy will work. If it does, I could run apache on port 80 (my current setup just serves a redirect to https anyway) and have it redirect to nginx except for the proxy
18:17:33 <Koen_> it's basically like a "calculator" of sorts, that is, every line in a program is an expression to be interpreted (like "3 + 4 * 5", or "if a = 0 then 3 else 4"), except there's this cool "when" operator
18:18:40 <Koen_> also the author says his implementation will be available soon and then went silent for over a decade :)
18:19:56 <Vorpal> Hm there is this, but the link to the tutorial is dead. Also it doesn't specify if it uses CONNECT. Probably not? https://github.com/shawnl/nginx-ssh
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18:21:49 <TieSoul> Are the integers in spiral signed or unsigned?
18:25:13 <TieSoul> And what happens if the ":" instruction gets a char with unicode value > 255/256?
18:25:23 <elliott> Vorpal: could you just do ssh over tls?
18:25:40 <elliott> with like, stunnel or whatever
18:26:18 <fizzie> elliott: Bonus benefit: you can call it twice as secure.
18:26:58 <Bicyclidine> use a javascript web shell that uses XMLHttpRequest to do ssh
18:31:52 <Koen_> TieSoul: where can I try out our shell?
18:32:16 <TieSoul> The python code is downloadable at https://github.com/TieSoul/Multilang
18:32:31 <Vorpal> elliott, possibly. I'll try it at least.
18:32:47 <Vorpal> elliott, not sure stunnel will work though, I suspect spdy won't work.
18:32:51 <quintopia> TieSoul: but if you want to make it something else, feel free. that's unspecified in the spec
18:32:57 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean, you'd have to MITM the connection to determine it's http encapsulated in the TLS, right?
18:33:02 <Vorpal> Unless you can do spdy non-encrypted internally
18:33:09 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed that is the issue
18:33:27 <elliott> so you can put ssh in it instead.
18:33:35 <elliott> okay, I guess firewalls are MITMs by definition. but still.
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18:33:56 <Vorpal> elliott, well stunnel to sslh to nginx|ssh would work then
18:34:07 <elliott> Vorpal: why involve nginx?
18:34:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I still need a proper web server :P
18:34:30 <Vorpal> elliott, For, you know, web traffic
18:34:32 <elliott> Vorpal: oh, is the port actually filtered?
18:34:37 <elliott> or can you just run ssh-over-tls on some other port
18:34:46 <TieSoul> You know, I know someone named Koen irl, and he seems like the kind of person to be interested in esolangs :P
18:34:52 <TieSoul> You're probably not him though
18:34:58 <Vorpal> elliott, I want to serve https as well as being able to sneak in ssh over that port basically
18:35:11 <Koen_> I'm not actually named Koen so we're Kool
18:35:15 <elliott> Vorpal: why not run ssh-over-tls on port 1234567891011 and http-over-tls on port 443 or whatever it is
18:35:31 <Vorpal> elliott, can't connect to any port but 80 and 443 out
18:35:40 <Vorpal> Can't connect to 8080 for example
18:35:45 <elliott> run ssh-over-tls on port 80 then :P
18:36:11 <Vorpal> That might work. Not sure if it allows tls over port 80
18:36:28 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.agroman.net/corkscrew/ https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Tunneling_SSH_through_HTTP_proxies_using_HTTP_Connect
18:36:32 <Vorpal> And I could easily set up a simple daemon to detect real http and redirect it
18:36:36 <elliott> http://dag.wiee.rs/howto/ssh-http-tunneling/
18:36:51 <elliott> http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/linux-and-open-source/using-corkscrew-to-tunnel-ssh-over-http/
18:37:07 <TieSoul> oh btw Koen_ if you didn't see, shell source is here: https://github.com/TieSoul/Multilang
18:37:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I looked into some of this yes. The problem is that nginx doesn't support forward proxying (that is HTTP CONNECT)
18:37:18 <TieSoul> You need python to run it though
18:37:18 <Koen_> yup I guessed that
18:37:39 <elliott> Vorpal: you could run varnish or something in front of nginx
18:37:51 <elliott> Tip: If your proxy does not support the HTTP Connect method, see HTTP Tunneling.
18:38:04 <elliott> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/HTTP_Tunneling
18:38:39 <elliott> openvpn seems to support tunneling over http, so maybe you could just use that and then use ssh directly inside the VPN.
18:39:28 <elliott> httptunnel + proxying through nginx looks like it should work though.
18:40:32 <Vorpal> elliott, So nginx is the public facing web server, reverse proxying to httptunnel on some specific url?
18:40:37 <elliott> Vorpal: btw, how about getting another job?
18:40:45 <elliott> yes, something like that presumably
18:40:51 <Vorpal> Eh, it pays well and isn't too bad usually
18:41:13 <elliott> maybe you could just ask them to allow ssh on port 22 :)
18:41:48 <Vorpal> I believe that has been tried before. No luck
18:42:33 <elliott> github's new issues page is a little disorienting
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18:50:52 <fizzie> I had to have some sort of a really complicated thing when IRCing from the civil service place. Fortunately I've forgotten the details.
18:52:09 <fizzie> This was in 2002, I'm sure the software landscape looks different these days anyway.
18:59:41 <Vorpal> elliott, Huh I wonder if you could use websockets for this. Maybe? It looks like it could be used for that
19:01:17 <Vorpal> Well there is a node.js thing to tunnel tcp over websockets
19:01:27 <Vorpal> I heard node.js is pretty bad though
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19:05:13 <fizzie> http://http-tunnel.sourceforge.net/ has a PHP-based server-side thing.
19:05:24 <fizzie> There are (unsurprisingly) a number of kludgy HTTP tunneling things.
19:05:37 <Vorpal> I'm not a fan of php but okay
19:06:27 <fizzie> The one you linked had so orange-on-black website that I couldn't figure out if it uses some particular paths for the requests so that you could easily use a nginx reverse-proxy in front of its server-side half.
19:06:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm looking at the reverse proxy thing for httptunnel. Was googling for how to set up the reverse proxy thing...
19:06:39 <Vorpal> And stumbled upon websockets
19:06:44 <Vorpal> and then I went off on a tangent
19:06:47 <elliott> the one I linked was an arch linux wikipedia page.
19:07:34 <fizzie> Well, I mean, the home page of the actual program.
19:08:05 <fizzie> Since the Arch page just says "run hts and htc" with no comments on what you should do if you want also a regular HTTP server at that port.
19:08:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed. But I think a reverse proxy from nginx might work.
19:09:20 <Vorpal> Assuming it isn't doing anything silly, like buffering
19:09:47 <fizzie> I think it does that by default, yes.
19:10:00 <Vorpal> Hm, can't find how though
19:10:00 <fizzie> See http://nginx.com/resources/admin-guide/nginx-reverse-proxy/ "Configuring Buffers".
19:10:16 <Vorpal> Oh okay, I was looking at the module reference, silly me
19:12:25 <Vorpal> Now I'm wondering if I can do this over https. Maybe? Can I do it in a sub-path? Who knows.
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19:14:33 <Vorpal> Hm guess I can't specify a http path
19:14:37 <TieSoul> new version of my shell :D
19:16:12 <Vorpal> <fizzie> http://http-tunnel.sourceforge.net/ has a PHP-based server-side thing. <-- there is a stand-alone perl thing too, could maybe proxy to that and avoid php
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19:17:42 <hektor> I just finished writing the wiki page for my new language
19:17:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Logique]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40217 * Hektor * (+2490) Created the page for Logique
19:20:10 <hektor> ugh I messed up the link for the interpreter
19:21:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Logique]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40218&oldid=40217 * Hektor * (-1) Fixed a link
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19:32:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Spiral]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40219&oldid=40216 * Quintopia * (-18) /* Self-intersecting Code */
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19:35:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, actually this one is the only one I found so far that allows using a specific path on the server: https://www.npmjs.org/package/wstunnel
19:35:32 <Vorpal> well maybe the php one before did, but I tried the perl variant of it, and it didn't work properly in a quick local test. So no
19:36:57 <Vorpal> Doesn't seem to support non-transparent proxy from the client tool though
19:37:15 <elliott> Vorpal: you can just proxy the path with nginx...?
19:37:35 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but obviously the client need to be able to connect to that path
19:38:19 <Vorpal> elliott, i.e. Some clients (like for GNU httptunnel) only allows you to connect to webserver:port, not webserver:port/myproxy
19:38:41 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, that would work, as long as they send those virtual host headers
19:38:49 <Vorpal> For https it would need SNI too
19:39:03 <Vorpal> So I'm looking at which tools send vhost headers
19:39:11 <elliott> you don't need https if you're tunneling ssh
19:39:19 <elliott> Vorpal: if you had multiple ipv4s it'd be easy :p
19:39:29 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I could get that, but I think it costs money from linode
19:39:59 <elliott> Vorpal: clearly host it on your home computer and tunnel ssh through ssh
19:40:17 <Vorpal> Well okay, that could work. Hm
19:41:12 <Vorpal> The only potential issue is if the home computer is turned off. Which happens. I generally don't leave it on if there is expected to be thunderstorms
19:41:20 <Vorpal> But I guess I would have to live without those days
19:41:27 <elliott> Vorpal: how about use tor? they have bridges over HTTP.
19:41:31 <elliott> and then just use ssh as normal.
19:41:36 <elliott> I'm actually kinda half-serious.
19:41:56 <Vorpal> Hm. That would work. But wouldn't it be super-slow?
19:42:12 <elliott> tor should be fast enough for ssh, it's not *that* slow. you could use mosh too
19:42:25 <elliott> tor is slow for, like, large downloads, it's actually not that bad in terms of latency and stuff IMO
19:43:10 <Vorpal> elliott, mosh is udp. Good luck with that in this case
19:43:20 <elliott> oh, right, tor is tcp-only
19:43:34 <Vorpal> Also good luck with udp through the company firewall/proxy
19:43:43 <elliott> well, you could do UDP over TCP :3
19:44:08 <Vorpal> That sounds ridiculous, but so does all of this really
19:44:16 <Vorpal> Basically everything out is blocked except port 80 and 443 through the proxy.
19:44:31 <Vorpal> Anyway doing proxytunnel.sourceforge.net to home might work.
19:44:40 <elliott> I honestly find Tor surprisingly fast. sometimes I open the tor browser bundle to bypass a paywall or whatever and accidentally end up doing web browsing in it and I notice the noscript more than the speed
19:45:15 <Vorpal> Bicyclidine, some of them is like x free articles / month
19:45:36 <Vorpal> elliott, clearing cookies sometimes work with those too :P
19:45:43 <Vorpal> Like for svd.se (A swedish news paper)
19:45:44 <elliott> that's more work and less cyberpunk :p
19:46:03 <Bicyclidine> i thought you meant for something requiring pay to read at all and i was like sign me up for that shit
19:46:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: The major Finnish newspaper (hs.fi) has a javascript localStorage-based paywall.
19:46:18 <fizzie> (Incognito mode/"private browsing" works for it, though.)
19:46:23 <elliott> Bicyclidine: it's true. tor turns your browser into a hacker
19:46:25 <Vorpal> I don't think they do it on IP alone, since that would screw over people behind NAT
19:47:06 <elliott> Vorpal: I think the NAT thing would be fine
19:47:11 <elliott> since they probably care about home users more than anything else
19:47:27 <Vorpal> elliott, well, some ISPs NAT nowdays
19:47:40 <elliott> I don't think CGN is very widespread
19:48:07 <elliott> the horrifying endgame of IPv4 exhaustion
19:48:33 <elliott> I wish we had nice network infrastructure.
19:48:35 <Vorpal> I heard of that happening in Sweden (Banhoff maybe? I forgot which one), but if you called them and asked for a public IP they would just give you one
19:48:42 <Bicyclidine> hm, you'd think my university IT would be able to do IPv6
19:48:52 <fizzie> Bicyclidine: You'd think the same about ours, but...
19:49:33 <fizzie> My ISP's IRC server had acquired an AAAA record a few days ago (noticed because it started giving an "unauthorized connection" error, thanks to the IPv6 tunnel), so perhaps that's a sign they're going to roll it out to customers in the next decade or so?
19:51:06 <elliott> it'd be nice if routing wasn't a hard problem. :/
19:51:54 <Bicyclidine> "NP-Completeness of ad hoc multicast routing problems" boo yah
19:51:56 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep).
19:52:48 <Vorpal> I wonder if I could reverse proxy to proxytunnel
19:53:07 <Vorpal> Or is that just a client?
19:53:39 <elliott> Vorpal: if you're doing it to your home computer, you can just use stunnel + ssh
19:53:47 <elliott> since you don't need a web browser there
19:53:55 <Vorpal> elliott, right. Worth a try
19:59:38 <TieSoul> what language should I implement next? I'm making a mega-interpreter/shell for esolangs :P
20:00:51 <TieSoul> I already have Befunge, Brainfuck, Random, Replacefuck, Eitherfuck.
20:01:12 <fizzie> Eodermdrome, naturally.
20:01:35 <TieSoul> I am not going to implement Eodermdrome
20:02:01 <TieSoul> oh well Befunge-98 is the version of Befunge implemented
20:02:16 <Vorpal> TieSoul, you already done befunge-98?
20:02:36 <TieSoul> and Koen_, I'm not comfortable trying to implement an imperative language yet.
20:02:52 <Koen_> it's definitely not an imperative language
20:03:06 <Koen_> everything just's expression
20:03:16 <Koen_> so I'd call it functional
20:03:19 <TieSoul> I must have the wrong definition of imperative in my head
20:03:36 <Koen_> brainfuck is imperative :)
20:04:09 <TieSoul> and yes Vorpal I already did Befunge-98
20:04:33 <fizzie> Is it Mycology-clean, though?
20:04:48 <fizzie> Well, then you have some work to do.
20:04:49 <TieSoul> it goes into an infinite loop at one point and I can't figure out why
20:05:03 <Vorpal> TieSoul, well then it isn't properly working
20:05:07 <TieSoul> the 'y' instruction gives wrong info sometimes and I can't figure out why
20:05:24 <TieSoul> the 'u' instruction works fine, but Mycology says it doesn't work and I can't figure out why
20:05:36 <Vorpal> Mycology is probably right
20:05:52 <Vorpal> I have written two implementations of befunge-98 (cfunge and efunge)
20:06:02 <Vorpal> And I found that most of the time mycology was right, and I wasn't
20:06:30 <Vorpal> TieSoul, you will simply have to add some debug printing to discover the issue. Probably it is testing some edge case
20:06:43 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
20:07:02 <TieSoul> so mycology says "BAD: form feed reflects" and then gets stuck in an infinite loop.
20:07:27 <Vorpal> Well form feed shouldn't reflect
20:07:46 -!- mhi^ has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
20:07:49 <Vorpal> Wait, what should form feed do in befunge? As opposed to trefunge
20:08:02 <Vorpal> Let me check what befunge does
20:08:47 <Vorpal> TieSoul, cfunge ignores it while loading the file
20:09:03 <Vorpal> TieSoul, as in, it is as if it wasn't there
20:09:09 <TieSoul> but then the problem wasn't fixed
20:09:37 <TieSoul> so I made it reflect again for some reason
20:10:00 <Vorpal> mycology is probably correct, but the cause of the issue might not be what it says. The feedback from it isn't always the best.
20:10:10 <TieSoul> also, it says "u with zero count does something"
20:10:19 <TieSoul> it pops something and then continues on
20:10:30 <Vorpal> Are you sure? Write your own test program?
20:10:45 <TieSoul> I'm pretty sure I've tested it
20:11:09 <Vorpal> if (ip->stackstack->current == 0) {
20:11:10 <Vorpal> count = stack_pop(ip->stack);
20:11:14 <Vorpal> stackstack_transfer(count,
20:11:16 <Vorpal> ip->stackstack->stacks[ip->stackstack->current],
20:11:18 <Vorpal> ip->stackstack->stacks[ip->stackstack->current - 1]);
20:12:02 <Vorpal> Does that help at all?
20:12:08 <fizzie> I'm not sure you can say as a hard-and-fast rule that reflecting on a form feed is against the spec.
20:12:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, I remember arguing with Deewiant about that ages ago
20:12:41 <Vorpal> That or use a pastebin if it is long
20:13:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, iirc since \n is ignored in unefunge FF should be ignored in befunge (and unefunge)
20:13:22 <TieSoul> push(stackstack[-2].pop() if stackstack[-2] != [] else 0)
20:13:41 <TieSoul> stackstack[-2].append(pop())
20:13:43 <Vorpal> pastebin, I can't read that without indentation :P
20:13:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: I guess that's reasonable, but it's not explicitly said.
20:14:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, right. I do not remember the details. Search the logs?
20:14:33 <fizzie> I'm not sure I care that much, since it is quite reasonable.
20:14:48 <TieSoul> http://bpaste.net/show/517546/
20:15:05 -!- shikhout has changed nick to shikhin.
20:15:13 <fizzie> I mean, the part about ignoring end-of-life markers in Unefunge is explicit.
20:15:25 <fizzie> (The part about generalizing that to form feed is not.)
20:16:00 <fizzie> I don't want to see any end-of-life markers in my source code.
20:16:08 <Vorpal> TieSoul, and it said what didn't work?
20:16:25 <TieSoul> it also said "Can't test negative count"
20:16:31 <Vorpal> TieSoul, zero count or zero stack stacks?
20:16:53 <TieSoul> and also that u with positive count transfers incorrectly
20:17:03 <Vorpal> GOOD: u reflects when stack stack has only one stack
20:17:03 <Vorpal> GOOD: u with zero count does nothing
20:17:03 <Vorpal> GOOD: u with a positive count transfers cells correctly
20:17:03 <Vorpal> GOOD: u with a negative count transfers cells correctly
20:17:32 <TieSoul> GOOD: u reflects when stack stack has only one stack BAD: u with zero count does something BAD: u with a positive count transfers cells incorrectly Can't test negative. WARNING: attempted recovery of stack stack, situation may be corrupt
20:18:41 <TieSoul> oh also, with y, it says that stack sizes are '[ 2463]'. Is that right?
20:19:11 <Vorpal> TieSoul, what might happen is that some other instruction used in that test has a bug and then mycology detects that the stack stack isn't correct
20:19:20 <Vorpal> But only as a result of something else going wrong
20:19:24 <Vorpal> That happened a few times to me
20:19:31 <Vorpal> And it is indeed a pain to debug
20:19:47 <TieSoul> only three other BADs before that:
20:19:49 <TieSoul> BAD: 101-{} doesn't leave stack top as 0 and next as 1 BAD: fedcba0{05-} doesn't leave 15 on stack
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20:20:14 <Vorpal> You should fix the first bad first, since mycology tries to test each instruction before it uses it for other tests
20:20:14 <TieSoul> should 's' skip over the next instruction?
20:20:46 <Vorpal> fungespace_set(stack_pop(ip->stack), &ip->position);
20:20:58 <TieSoul> I must have read right over that
20:21:35 <Vorpal> Well what I do is step forward, set the value to the current position, and then the automatic step at the end happens
20:21:43 <fizzie> Even if your s does not skip, you'd expect 'vs^ to go up and not down.
20:21:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, depends on the direction it is going
20:22:27 <fizzie> Well, if it's coming from the left, it'd go up in all cases.
20:22:52 <TieSoul> and no, it skips right over the ^
20:23:05 <Vorpal> Maybe it is just incorrectly worded then?
20:23:12 <Vorpal> What about the 101-{} thing?
20:23:22 <Vorpal> Should definitely fix that before trying to fix u
20:23:29 <Vorpal> That is probably what messes up u
20:23:38 <TieSoul> I'll paste my "{" and "}" code
20:23:48 <Vorpal> I remember seeing 101-{} error ages ago too
20:24:14 <TieSoul> http://bpaste.net/show/g8vOrj4CJGQvtVl66OS9/
20:24:31 <Vorpal> TieSoul, there is a section in the mycology readme.txt on 101-{} failures
20:24:38 <Vorpal> Have you checked that?
20:26:14 <Vorpal> I assume there is some debugger for python you can check what is going on internally with?
20:26:35 <TieSoul> Not that I know of, honestly
20:27:07 <Vorpal> I used the pycharm IDE, but I haven't really used the debugger it has
20:27:20 <fizzie> TieSoul: You don't seem to be pushing the storeoffset on the SOSS if the count is negative.
20:27:51 <fizzie> (Lines 8-9 of your paste are only executed if a > 0.)
20:28:29 <TieSoul> and I pushed the zeroes onto the TOSS fsr
20:28:38 <Vorpal> Here is my stack stack code. Since it is C it is 90% memory management though. http://sprunge.us/dUFe
20:28:57 <Vorpal> It is quite a complicated area of cfunge
20:29:06 <Vorpal> Probably only beaten by the funge-space code really
20:29:18 <TieSoul> BAD: fedcba0{05-} doesn't leave 15 on stack
20:30:53 <TieSoul> there seems to be nothing wrong with my "}" code for negative values
20:31:00 <fizzie> fungot never has a stack stack larger than one stack during its execution.
20:31:00 <fungot> fizzie: the jungle? where is syntax the user can, in fact, let me know
20:31:01 <TieSoul> that should work correctly
20:31:10 <Vorpal> TieSoul, Check the { code?
20:31:29 <Vorpal> So that the stack before the } is correct
20:31:33 <fizzie> Also run a simple fedcba0{05-}.@ manually.
20:32:04 <TieSoul> the { doesn't push the storage offset with 0 count
20:32:24 <TieSoul> I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that code
20:32:44 <Vorpal> You know stack-stack is probably more annoying than funge-space even. The funge-space code is mostly just a lot of stuff. Stack-stack is way more complicated per line if that makes any sense
20:33:43 <TieSoul> well, fixing the storage offset problem seems to have fixed everything with {, } and u
20:34:07 <elliott> I found stack-stack quite easy to implement.
20:34:36 <TieSoul> BAD: 0y pushes wrong stack size
20:34:48 <Vorpal> TieSoul, not surprising. With mycology always fix the first problem first. Since other errors later might be bogus after the first one.
20:34:58 <Vorpal> I believe the readme even said so?
20:35:47 <TieSoul> so erm, y seems to be a bit insane on my interpreter
20:36:06 <Vorpal> TieSoul, y is pretty insane overall :P
20:36:20 <TieSoul> http://bpaste.net/show/hJN9ISyljyNAngWufR5w/
20:37:18 <TieSoul> Does the handprint thing matter?
20:37:22 <Vorpal> TieSoul, here is my y-implementation. It is somewhat optimised so it is hard to follow. https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~anmaster/cfunge/trunk/view/head:/src/instructions/sysinfo.c
20:37:30 <TieSoul> because I just used an arbitrary number
20:37:40 <Vorpal> TieSoul, it is the name of the interpreter. It is just a number
20:37:52 <Vorpal> But generally it is interpreted as 4 letters
20:38:23 <TieSoul> well anyway, the handprint used is 29358
20:38:30 <TieSoul> because well it's arbitrary :P
20:39:34 <fizzie> "tempstackstack = stackstack" doesn't sound like something that'd actually make any sort of copy.
20:40:17 <TieSoul> well then, tempstackstack = list(stackstack) does make a copy
20:40:49 <hektor> you could also use stackstack[:] to make a copy I think
20:40:51 <fizzie> A copy of the list of stacks, sure; but not a copy of the individual topmost stack.
20:41:08 <elliott> could that #ifdef __WIN32__ be more ideological? :)
20:41:09 <fizzie> Your 'push' will still affect the topmost stack in both copies, I assume.
20:42:04 <Vorpal> TieSoul, here is my y output (plus a few lines after) http://sprunge.us/TAAT
20:42:24 <Vorpal> [...] is stuff I cut obviously
20:42:47 <fizzie> (I'd probably just collect all the things that will be pushed into a separate [], if not trying to optimize.)
20:42:47 <TieSoul> alright then, "tempstackstack = [list(i) for i in stackstack] ought to work
20:42:48 <Vorpal> My handpring 1128682830 is CFUN
20:43:24 <Vorpal> <fizzie> "tempstackstack = stackstack" doesn't sound like something that'd actually make any sort of copy. <-- it doesn't probably in python
20:43:30 <Vorpal> you can use copy.deepcopy iirc
20:43:40 <Vorpal> It uses the same mechanism as pickle internally
20:44:06 <Bicyclidine> elliott: #ifdef __WIN32__ (void)sizeof(char[-1])
20:45:44 <Vorpal> <@elliott> could that #ifdef __WIN32__ be more ideological? :) <-- Maybe? Not sure
20:46:20 <Vorpal> elliott, it could be better worded, maybe "windows=not supported" or something like that
20:46:39 -!- TieSoul-mobile has joined.
20:46:51 <Vorpal> It does work on cygwin though
20:47:26 <TieSoul-mobile> So, what does Mycology test after form feed behaviour?
20:47:27 <Bicyclidine> elliott: some things do that as compile time assert failure, i guess
20:47:58 <Bicyclidine> might have got it a bit wrong since i'm not good at C/programming in general
20:48:03 <Vorpal> GOOD: null byte in string and zero compare as equal
20:48:04 <Vorpal> GOOD: ' followed by a byte greater than 127 works
20:48:04 <Vorpal> GOOD: form feed does not appear to exist in Funge-Space
20:48:04 <Vorpal> GOOD: y reports shrunk bounds correctly after spacing top-left corner
20:48:04 <Vorpal> GOOD: y reports shrunk bounds correctly after spacing right edge
20:48:05 <Vorpal> GOOD: y reports shrunk bounds correctly after spacing bottom edge
20:48:07 <Vorpal> TieSoul-mobile, that ^
20:48:42 <Vorpal> TieSoul-mobile, but again, you need to fix the first error first
20:48:47 <Vorpal> Or you get bogus results
20:48:50 <TieSoul-mobile> Alright so my interpreter doesn't shrink the bounds currently.
20:49:13 <fizzie> Bicyclidine: You got it right, and it's done in e.g. the Linux kernel.
20:49:15 <Vorpal> TieSoul-mobile, that is probably less of an issue, as long as it just goes on after. If it gets stuck, that is an issue though
20:49:21 <fizzie> #define BUILD_BUG_ON(condition) ((void)sizeof(char[1 - 2*!!(condition)]))
20:49:27 <Vorpal> TieSoul-mobile, Also the form feed could mess that up
20:49:31 <fizzie> Only if __OPTIMIZE__ is not set, however.
20:49:35 <Vorpal> TieSoul-mobile, Just make it skip the FF
20:50:23 <TieSoul-mobile> Also, is form feed what Trefunge uses to separate 2d planes?
20:50:29 <Vorpal> TieSoul-mobile, correct
20:50:44 <Vorpal> Anyway, y is used for picking from stack later on in the program, so you need that part of y to work at the very least
20:51:02 -!- hektor has quit (Quit: Page closed).
20:52:00 <Vorpal> TieSoul-mobile, easy to get that part of y wrong
20:53:20 <Vorpal> I don't remember python indices syntax
20:54:35 <Bicyclidine> fizzie: funny, when i first saw that idiom it was from much less famous code and i thought it seemed terrible
20:55:38 <fizzie> I've seen a couple of other static asserts.
20:55:56 <fizzie> Of course these days we all just use C11's _Static_assert keyword on our C11 implementations.
20:55:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, the linux one seems complicated though
20:56:30 <Vorpal> why 1-2* why not 0- instead
20:56:42 <fizzie> Because 0 is dubiously legal, perhaps.
20:56:46 <fizzie> GCC extension and all that.
20:56:58 <fizzie> At least 1 and -1 are unambiguously okay and not-okay.
20:57:19 <fizzie> Not that the kernel is shy about GCC extensions, but wherever they cribbed it from might be.
20:57:39 <fizzie> Bicyclidine: 0, I think.
20:58:11 <fizzie> [23:59:50] <fizzie> ,cc -Wno-pedantic size_t s = sizeof (char[0]);
20:58:11 <fizzie> [23:59:52] <candide> fizzie: no output: s = 0
20:58:26 <fizzie> The manual mentions it's a "quirk of the original implementation".
20:59:07 <fizzie> GCC also allows an empty struct in C code, also with a size of 0.
20:59:15 <fizzie> (C++ allows that in general, but it has a size of 1.)
21:00:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, I seem it used as generic arguments for templates mostly, tagging I think it is called
21:00:56 <fizzie> It seems to have less uses in C, except perhaps with some sort of preprocessor (ab)use that might sometimes end up with an empty struct if, say, no features are enabled or whatnot.
21:05:28 <fizzie> I think people should use more switch statements where the body is not a block statement.
21:05:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, any code in particular?
21:06:02 <Vorpal> Anyway you can use switch for almost anything
21:06:10 <Vorpal> Also mix it with traditional if/else
21:06:17 <fizzie> I don't have any reasonable examples, I just think it looks funny.
21:06:50 <Bicyclidine> i for one only use switch for duff's device
21:06:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm not sure what you mean with "not a block statement"
21:07:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: Something like switch (x) case 0: if (y) { foo(); default: bar(); } for example.
21:08:55 <fizzie> That's something like if (!x && y) { foo(); bar(); } else if (x) { bar(); }
21:09:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, also mix this with goto for extra fun
21:15:21 <fizzie> Regarding Duff's device, I don't understand why it's always written http://sprunge.us/aTIH?c and not http://sprunge.us/ZMDh?c instead.
21:15:40 <elliott> fizzie: the former looks freakier.
21:15:56 <elliott> switch-do-while is some control structure, though.
21:16:14 <elliott> is "switch (foo) default: ;" valid??
21:16:18 <elliott> oh, I guess labels have to be within a block
21:16:43 <fizzie> No, I think that's just fine.
21:16:58 <Bicyclidine> fizzie: i spent like five minutes just now trying to figure out the first, so bless you and your readable insane code
21:17:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Topsy turvy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40220&oldid=40191 * 213.93.29.31 * (+35)
21:17:11 <fizzie> [00:18:51] <fizzie> ,cc switch (0) default: ;
21:17:11 <fizzie> [00:18:53] <candide> fizzie: Success (no output).
21:17:32 <elliott> switch (n) foo: { case 0: ... ; ... }
21:17:39 <elliott> my mental parser really does not recognise that as C.
21:17:51 <Bicyclidine> mine doesn't recognize duff's as C, so, hooray
21:17:52 <fizzie> switch (x) case 1: f(); is a good automatic replacement for if (x == 1) f(); in your codebase.
21:17:59 <elliott> fizzie: what about switch (n) case 0: { ...; case 1: ...; }
21:18:04 <elliott> please tell me that's not valid
21:18:31 <fizzie> I think you can label a block statement, yes.
21:19:13 <fizzie> Also switch (x) do case 0: { ...; case 1: ...; } while (z);
21:19:40 <Vorpal> elliott, hm do we have a bot in here that can do C?
21:20:12 <elliott> int main(int argc, char **argv) { switch (argc) case 1: { puts("1"); case 2: puts("2"); } }
21:20:15 <elliott> % clang test.c && ./a.out && ./a.out x
21:20:24 <elliott> why haven't I seen this in obfuscated C before
21:20:31 <Vorpal> !c int n = 0; switch (n) case 0: { printf("0"); case 1: printf("1"); }
21:20:37 <Vorpal> !c int n = 1; switch (n) case 0: { printf("0"); case 1: printf("1"); }
21:20:40 <Vorpal> elliott, yes it is valid
21:20:55 <Vorpal> It is terrible, but it is valid
21:21:00 <Vorpal> !c int n = 1; switch (n) case 0: printf("0"); case 1: printf("1");
21:21:20 <elliott> !c switch (1) if (0) { case 0: puts("0"); break; case 1: puts("1"); break; }
21:21:24 <fizzie> [00:22:59] <fizzie> ,cc for (int i = 0, j = 0; i < 2; i++, j = 0) switch (i) do case 0: { putchar('a'); case 1: putchar('b'); } while (j++ < i);
21:21:28 <fizzie> [00:23:00] <candide> fizzie: abbab
21:21:35 <Vorpal> elliott, didn't you know?
21:21:45 <elliott> Vorpal: I didn't know you could do switch (...) case foo:, at least.
21:22:01 <elliott> I knew switch and blocks were weird, but I assumed you pretty much needed a {} block after switch.
21:22:23 <Vorpal> elliott, I think you can't start switch inside a scope that you exit before the last case though
21:22:29 <Vorpal> But everything else is just fine
21:22:38 <fizzie> Sadly, a function body does need to be a compound statement.
21:22:39 <elliott> !c switch (0) if ( ({ case 0: puts("0"); 1 }) ) case 1: puts("1");
21:23:05 <Vorpal> elliott, sorry, what is that supposed to be?
21:23:13 <fizzie> int f(int x) return x+2; would look so modern.
21:23:15 <elliott> Vorpal: a gcc statement-expression
21:24:20 <fizzie> You have expression statements, so why not statement expressions.
21:24:30 <Vorpal> expression statements?
21:24:40 <fizzie> Most statements are expression statements.
21:24:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, Do you mean normal C?
21:24:45 <elliott> int main(int argc, char **argv) { switch (argc) if ( ({ case 1: puts("1"); 1; }) ) case 2: puts("2"); }
21:24:48 <elliott> % clang test.c && ./a.out && ./a.out x
21:25:16 <Bicyclidine> this channel always finds new ways to justify my move away from CS
21:25:26 <Vorpal> elliott, switch is basically a slightly restricted goto then?
21:25:36 <Vorpal> That is what it seems like to me
21:25:50 <elliott> can you even goto the inside of a statement expression like that normally
21:25:55 <Bicyclidine> also i can't read what this code is doing, at all
21:25:56 <fizzie> elliott: Sadly, what you did is not legal, even if it does compile.
21:26:09 <fizzie> "Jumping into a statement expression with goto or using a switch statement outside the statement expression with a case or default label inside the statement expression is not permitted. Jumping into a statement expression with a computed goto (see Labels as Values) has undefined behavior. Jumping out of a statement expression is permitted, but if the statement expression is part of a larger ...
21:26:12 <Vorpal> elliott, that I don't know. But I meant with standard C, not GCC extensions
21:26:15 <fizzie> ... expression then it is unspecified which other subexpressions of that expression have been evaluated except where the language definition requires certain subexpressions to be evaluated before or after the statement expression."
21:26:32 <elliott> int main(int argc, char **argv) { goto q; if ( ({ q: 1; }) ) puts("1"); }
21:27:16 <fizzie> Perhaps clang actually allows it?
21:27:19 <Vorpal> elliott, I wonder if there is some crazy thing you can invent by mixing switch and goto
21:27:26 <fizzie> Because I get a "error: switch jumps into statement expression" out of GCC for that.
21:27:59 <elliott> proof that clang is better.
21:28:02 <fizzie> And the manual did make it sound like it'd be a compile-time error, except for the computed-goto case, which of course can't be.
21:28:09 <elliott> fizzie: (imagine being the one to write that error message)
21:28:36 <Vorpal> Does gcc support gettext?
21:28:46 <Vorpal> I wonder what it would be like translating all these things
21:29:03 <elliott> it's not that many error messages.
21:29:22 <elliott> translating a large GUI application sounds scarier
21:29:22 <Vorpal> LC_ALL doesn't localize for me
21:29:31 <Vorpal> Maybe I don't have Swedish installed for gcc?
21:29:54 <Vorpal> elliott, sure, but the terminology in something like a word processor is far easier in Swedish than it is for a compiler
21:30:02 <Vorpal> what do I even call a statement expression in Swedish?
21:31:22 <Vorpal> I guess I don't have Swedish localisation installed huh
21:33:03 <fizzie> Debian packages it as gcc-X.Y-locales.
21:33:12 <fizzie> I don't have them installed, either; it's not done by default.
21:33:53 <fizzie> They haven't managed to translate "statement expression" to Finnish.
21:34:04 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/KOZX
21:34:08 <Vorpal> coreutils isn't translated either
21:34:25 <fizzie> It knows how to say "virhe:" but not the actual contents.
21:34:27 <Vorpal> I expected ls --help to be localized
21:35:11 <fizzie> "LANGUAGE=fi ls --help" just translates the first line.
21:35:19 <elliott> they probably removed the localisation from coreutils because of all those security bugs.
21:35:39 <fizzie> Oh, also the descriptions for --help and --version options.
21:35:55 <fizzie> Oh, and some others here and there. But not all options.
21:36:31 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/CFTi that's just ridiculous
21:36:34 <fizzie> How are you testing for it?
21:36:55 <elliott> (did anyone report that one?)
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21:37:04 <fizzie> These days LC_MESSAGES/LC_ALL is overridden by LANGUAGE if set, at least.
21:38:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, I tried LANGUAGE, LC_MESSAGES and LC_ALL
21:39:00 <fizzie> I don't know. Perhaps because LANGUAGE can provide a priority list instead of just a single option.
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21:48:04 <metasepia> CYUL 282100Z 36012G17KT 12SM -RA FEW010 OVC023 17/15 A2961 RMK SF1SC8 SF TR SLP027 DENSITY ALT 600FT
21:48:22 <metasepia> EFHK 282120Z 21007KT CAVOK 24/20 Q1012 NOSIG
21:48:38 <fizzie> There is +28.9°C inside here.
21:48:44 <metasepia> KATL 282052Z 30018G25KT 10SM FEW070 SCT200 31/16 A2991 RMK AO2 SLP116 CB DSNT E-SE-S-SW T03110156 57009
21:48:47 <fizzie> Bicyclidine: nosig-nificant.
21:51:43 <boily> quintopia: what the fungot are you doing over there with a nice 31 outside you AAAAAAAAAARGH!
21:51:43 <fungot> boily: and i got the patches but haven't yet used java 1.5/ 5.0, there are no loops, the fnord might want to compile
21:55:37 <olsner> fungot: has the heat gotten to you yet?
21:55:37 <fungot> olsner: yes, so i suppose not.... that'd just call lynx ( or whatever that small picture is called that appears in the source code
21:55:59 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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22:09:46 <oerjan> wait, does the topic mean fungot also hates ops? elliott, you should be careful.
22:10:07 <elliott> what does ampersand have to do with ops?
22:11:26 <oerjan> sorry, my brain apparently cannot distinguish @ and & today
22:11:59 <lambdabot> boily said 11h 25m 50s ago: it sounds like a wonderful source of pain. I'll have to try to write something in it.
22:11:59 <lambdabot> boily said 11h 25m 12s ago: <oerjan> `delquote 141 ← would you like me to unmangle the PDF too?
22:12:00 <lambdabot> boily said 11h 22m 24s ago: re. fueue: uhm. well. uuuuh... some other day perhaps. ow.
22:12:05 <olsner> oerjan: no at, no work
22:12:19 <oerjan> olsner: sounds plausible
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22:13:51 <elliott> I always get such a profound sense of how unfunny we are when reading wisdom.pdf.
22:13:57 <olsner> what was quote 141, btw?
22:14:30 <oerjan> elliott: it's ok, ais523 balances it out by nearly dying of laughter
22:14:46 <HackEgo> bc ௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵
22:15:38 <Sgeo> shachaf: Ada tasks remind me of actors, although there's something a bit off about them (in particular, is it possible to abstract out accepts behind procedures?)
22:15:38 <oerjan> elliott: haven't you seen ais523's messages about how he cannot read too many quotes at a time?
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22:15:47 <Sgeo> And my computer is slow to send, of course. I made that Ada statement before seeing anything about wisdom.pdf
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22:16:02 <elliott> oerjan: I admit I honestly cannot comprehend the idea of someone who finds the qdb that funny.
22:16:42 <HackEgo> People go on diets to loose weight instead of gaining. It gives them a consistant diet.
22:16:46 <elliott> some of these are truly baffling.
22:17:41 <oerjan> i'll agree on that one.
22:18:05 <oerjan> perhaps there's a pun in there somewhere
22:18:15 <boily> there is content in the PDF. that I can ascertain.
22:18:31 <oerjan> i think the point is all the misspellings, somehow
22:18:46 <elliott> there's only two misspellings.
22:19:24 <oerjan> i dunno, maybe the second diet is a misspelling for something that actually makes sense there
22:19:51 <elliott> I would like to understand this entry. (yes, I know the play.)
22:19:53 <oerjan> i suppose some of those only made sense in long lost context.
22:20:10 <oerjan> elliott: maybe it was added during one of your long absenses
22:20:30 <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things? He is also tire. And a lystrosaur.
22:20:47 <Bicyclidine> oh i remember the lystrosaur one. because lystrosaurs are great.
22:21:40 <Bicyclidine> i mean it's gibberish without context though.
22:22:33 <HackEgo> The lystrosaurs were an ancient genus of evil reptiles who successfully took over the world in the early Triassic.
22:23:17 <oerjan> possibly the truest entry in the wisdom.
22:24:10 <elliott> can I just delete the learndb?
22:24:37 <Bicyclidine> elliott wrote this learn DB, and then destr
22:25:42 <oerjan> elliott: what do you have against lystrosaurs
22:25:57 <elliott> oerjan: I have low self-esteem.
22:26:06 <oerjan> elliott: i wonder if you've grown up too much lately
22:26:20 <elliott> I was always grumpy and cynical!
22:26:42 <elliott> I'm probably less grumpy and cynical now than I was, like, three years ago. it's just I haven't eaten enough today.
22:26:57 <oerjan> food, our eternal nemesis
22:26:59 <elliott> (I still think the learndb sucks.)
22:27:31 <fizzie> Today's featured misreading: "I was always grumpy and cylindrical!"
22:28:44 <elliott> `? M–rdalsjökull
22:28:45 <HackEgo> M–rdalsjökull is a draconic volcano harbouring the secret KATL base.
22:31:17 <oerjan> i remember the volcano, but not why that was added with html entities
22:31:40 <boily> context is probably the most volatile substance in the universe.
22:33:09 <Bicyclidine> most volatile compound in the universe is C2N14, hth.
22:34:00 <Bicyclidine> 1-diazidocarbamoyl-5-azidotetrazole, woo yea
22:35:03 <oerjan> boily: hm, regarding unmangling, i guess we haven't deleted many quotes since you started the pdf? it used to be a semi-regular event.
22:36:12 <oerjan> as a result, there are far more new than old quotes, i think
22:36:52 <elliott> we could always start again.
22:36:57 <elliott> there's lots of ones that deserve deleting. :p
22:37:14 <boily> elliott: you have full commit access rights to the repo. please yourself!
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22:37:22 <oerjan> well, we had one yesterday, which is why boily asked
22:37:25 <b_jonas> Bicyclidine: be careful to mention that only in approperiate contexts. people might hear it and run for their lives thinking there's some danger.
22:37:27 <elliott> I'm not touching wisdom.pdf.
22:37:53 <HackEgo> shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj is the reason why the USA don't use the metric system.
22:38:07 <elliott> seriously, I don't know what goes through your mind when you decide to add this.
22:38:18 <oerjan> i doubt that was my mind
22:38:28 <oerjan> (i did the lystrosaur one, i'm pretty sure)
22:39:22 <boily> elliott: that one isn't from me. or if it is, I deny any responsibility.
22:39:49 <oerjan> the repository should allow that to be checked easily
22:39:53 <HackEgo> sgeolang currently is either J or Io.
22:39:56 <elliott> this is, like, years out of date.
22:40:27 <oerjan> what is sgeolang today? i think he said something about ruby recently
22:40:50 <elliott> I think it would be cool if Sgeo started speaking in different natural languages every month.
22:40:51 <quintopia> boily: what is the context for the draconic volcanno
22:41:03 <elliott> there's an alternate universe in which this is a conlangs channel and that happens.
22:41:35 <boily> quintopia: I have no fungotting clue about that one. let me grep through the logs...
22:41:36 <fungot> boily: i was only so excited to see you too, and it
22:41:46 <quintopia> can that alternate universe be this one?
22:41:51 <boily> fungot: I remember last time you were excited to see me.
22:41:51 <fungot> boily: ( not something)...) it can always be reverted."?
22:41:56 <elliott> quintopia: with enough engineering.
22:42:03 <Bicyclidine> one language a month sounds pretty fast, you'd need mechanical help
22:43:31 <boily> quintopia: 2014-02-13 19:07:36 metasepia an active volcano in southern Iceland, with an elevation of 970 m, covered by the southeastern part of the M–rdalsjökull Glacier.
22:43:44 <boily> (still, it doesn't answer why the ndash.)
22:44:30 <quintopia> and how KATL got translated to iceland
22:44:50 <oerjan> `addquote IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE WHERE SGEO DOES NATLANGS INSTEAD OF PROGLANGS: <Sgeo> Jeg vet ikke om norsk er noe for meg, i vs. på for stedsnavn virker veldig kronglete.
22:44:52 <HackEgo> 1213) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE WHERE SGEO DOES NATLANGS INSTEAD OF PROGLANGS: <Sgeo> Jeg vet ikke om norsk er noe for meg, i vs. på for stedsnavn virker veldig kronglete.
22:45:25 <Bicyclidine> you know, 'natural language' means one that's actually... natural, right? if it's a conlang made to look like a natural language that's just that
22:45:55 <oerjan> Bicyclidine: which is why i didn't use a conlang
22:46:10 <elliott> Bicyclidine: but sgeo talks about non-esoteri languages here
22:46:16 <elliott> so they'd be natural languages.
22:46:31 <Bicyclidine> people make conlangs that have cognates with real languages!
22:49:01 <oerjan> quintopia: KATL is presumably iceland because of Katla
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22:51:54 <oerjan> hm is J_Arcane idle or not
22:53:21 <oerjan> J_Arcane: are you there
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23:00:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nest]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40221&oldid=40212 * Oerjan * (+148) I disapprove of removing dead links without notice. Also we generally don't use level 1 sections here. And remove extra spacing.
23:11:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Logique]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40222&oldid=40218 * Oerjan * (+89) formatting
23:16:51 <myname> i wonder how many pages in the wiki starts with "... is an esoteric programming language"
23:19:13 <Bicyclidine> is an esoteric programming language when preceded by its quotation
23:20:31 <myname> how many percent of pages
23:22:49 <myname> thinking about it, thaz sounds terrible
23:23:04 <myname> how would you say that?
23:23:40 <myname> that kinda makes sence
23:24:15 <myname> i'd think of a set rather than a number on this one, though
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23:30:17 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/ThdK <- crude approximation
23:30:56 <fizzie> (It looks at all revisions, so some appear several times, if the matching part has been edited.)
23:31:48 <fizzie> (Also an old XML dump I had around, since the mysqldump is harder to Perl-oneline for.)
23:33:00 <myname> that's less than expected
23:34:17 <fizzie> Oh, it's missing all pages that link [[esoteric programming language]]. Let's strip those.
23:35:44 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/fgHK that's quite a bit more
23:45:37 <oerjan> gah hit my laptop's go-to-sleep button by accident
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23:47:21 <oerjan> why isn't IE offering to reopen my tabs :(
23:48:35 <oerjan> oh f it killed the touchpad driver, i have to actually let the reboot finish
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23:51:07 <Sgeo> What's the best natural language to describe a new conlang in?
23:53:47 <Sgeo> (Apparently Google Translate can't translate thank you???)
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23:58:14 <TieSoul-mobile> Hey that was for another channel and unrelated to this
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00:00:32 <oerjan> Sgeo: the translation is correct we have no use for a pesky pronoun hth
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00:03:01 <oerjan> he gave us flak, then left
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00:57:08 <oerjan> so this will be officially the hottest registered july in trondheim and most of trøndelag ever.
00:58:53 <oerjan> beating the old 1901 records, or thereabouts
01:07:34 <oerjan> well the overall _average_ looks to be 19.0°, i assume that includes night
01:07:47 <oerjan> and the tops are somewhere in the 30-32 range
01:08:20 <oerjan> i believe 37° has never been measured in norway ever
01:11:41 <shachaf> in about a billion years the average temperature on earth will be 47°, says wikipedia
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01:37:12 <shachaf> quintopia: At the moment I'm in Mountain View.
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01:54:31 <pikhq> 37 degrees just a couple days ago here. :(
01:54:56 <shachaf> do i need an excuse to be here
01:55:17 <quintopia> shachaf: oh i took your comment to mean "at the moment i'm in the bay area but normally i'm not in CA"
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02:06:41 <zzo38> How can you make a square wave with adjustable period using external clock with a 74xx series IC?
02:07:55 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 1d 2h 57m 59s ago: You added [[Uncontrollable]] to the Joke Language List, but there is no such article. Do you have a link or description?
02:08:17 <zzo38> oerjan: I saw it mentioned in some Japanese documentation.
02:10:29 <quintopia> zzo38: just counting number of times clock pin goes high and flipping the output pin every n times isn't it?
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02:11:52 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes that is what I want; which 74xx series to use?
02:13:54 <quintopia> iunno? there's too many. maybe 744059?
02:14:57 <quintopia> though that pulses. might need to add a latch after it
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04:12:42 <Deewiant> Re. the form feed stuff, it was probably made a binary good/bad test (instead of an undef) because form feeds change the resulting funge-space so much that it'd be practically impossible for Befunge programs to handle multiple different implementations of them
04:14:21 <elliott> you could bootstrap something that rewrites fungespace to undo all the damage and then jump back? :p
04:16:53 <Deewiant> But then form feeds would no longer make the code more difficult to write by messing up the X offset of the following line and the Y offsets of all the remaining lines :-P
04:19:37 <Deewiant> Another reason might be that I've generally gone with the philosophy that if an instruction might either always reflect or do something even slightly more interesting, prefer the latter behaviour
04:20:09 <Deewiant> For form feed those are pretty much the only two reasonable options
04:27:37 <elliott> Deewiant: I think it should feed a form asking what it should do to the nearest available printer.
04:27:46 <elliott> then you scan it back in and it does that.
04:28:00 <elliott> if you're using the interpreter over a network it faxes it to you.
04:28:31 <elliott> Deewiant: did mushspace ever happen?
04:32:29 <Deewiant> It's in the slow process of happening
04:34:00 <Deewiant> I have a 1988 paper on my desk that I need to understand and implement but I haven't taken the time to do so yet
04:34:10 <coppro> it's 26 years old, it can wait a little longer
04:42:07 <oerjan> J_Arcane: am i correct that Violet is your creation?
04:42:49 <oerjan> because as i mentioned on the talk page, there might be licensing problems between the github and the wiki if you weren't.
04:44:01 <oerjan> well all should be fine then.
04:44:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:VIOLET]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40223&oldid=40207 * JArcane * (+118)
04:46:21 <J_Arcane> I debated putting a callout to the joke to make things clearer.
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04:47:14 <J_Arcane> (also, I really need to add the license to the docs pages if I'm going to be linking them directly)
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05:49:03 <fizzie> Also 37.2 °C is the all-time record temperature in Finland (actually measured exactly four years ago today).
05:49:22 <fizzie> (And the all-time lowest is -51.5 °C in 1999.)
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05:55:44 <myname> "the not entirely possible case"
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06:25:42 <Sgeo> @message Sgeo Figure out how list and continuation is actually working here http://www.valuedlessons.com/2008/01/monads-in-python-with-nice-syntax.html
06:25:42 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages-loud messages?
06:25:50 <Sgeo> @tell Sgeo Figure out how list and continuation is actually working here http://www.valuedlessons.com/2008/01/monads-in-python-with-nice-syntax.html
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06:47:18 <J_Arcane> fizzie: I live there. Believe me when I say I did not expect this kind of heat when I moved to Finland ...
06:48:27 <J_Arcane> You can't escape Finns on IRC, they invented the place. ;)
06:51:15 <shachaf> elliott: You should read _Impro: Improvisation and the Theatre_.
07:20:01 <Sgeo> Is there a particularly deep reason that multiplication having higher precedence than addition seems to be the most convenient order? Not just habit, I think, it's in other places: data A = Foo Int Int | Bar String String, same as Int * Int + String * String, and && tends to have higher precedence than || in various languages
07:20:39 <zzo38> It is convenient for mathematics, I think.
07:22:01 <zzo38> While your example of "data A = Foo Int Int | Bar String String" shows one reason it can be convenient for mathematics (even though this includes no addition or multiplication, it still shows it by how you did). Things like "2a + 4b" of course show it too.
07:24:18 <Bike> The Whetstone of Witte, whiche is the seconde parte of Arithmeteke: containing the extraction of rootes; the cossike practise, with the rule of equation; and the workes of Surde Nombers
07:26:13 <Sgeo> Bike = Bicycle
07:26:41 <Sgeo> Or better yet, Bike ===== Bicycle
07:28:16 <Sgeo> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Whetstone_of_Witte
07:29:49 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zenzizenzizenzic
07:29:55 <elliott> he wrote that it "doeth represent the square of squares squaredly".
07:30:40 <Bike> it's a nice title really
07:31:09 <elliott> A Zenzizenzizenzizenzike or Square of Squares Squaredly Squared
07:32:21 <b_jonas> Sgeo: no particularly deep reason, it's just a stupid tradition we're trying to change since Iverson, but it's hard to change because our prophets K&R had given their blessing on it and they're influential
07:32:44 <b_jonas> so eventually we just say that the C-like convention and the Iverson-like linear expressions are two different syntax
07:33:05 <b_jonas> and we let people choose to their taste
07:33:17 <elliott> multiplication having higher precedence than addition is pretty reasonable...
07:33:20 <b_jonas> and depending on the particular purpose
07:33:23 <elliott> if you accept any precedence at all
07:33:46 <Sgeo> Considering that && = * and || = + I don't think the C ways are coincidence. Unless C violates my expectations
07:34:15 <b_jonas> Sgeo: C does violate expectations in that & has lower precedence than ==, but it's a historical mistake we can't correct now
07:34:33 <b_jonas> it would be worse to change it now, so we just deal with it and use extra parenthesis
07:35:15 <b_jonas> the rest of the C precedence table is good of course
07:36:42 <elliott> that's the precedence you want for & as a bitwise op
07:36:57 <elliott> the mistake was them wanting to pun the bitwise ops in that way :p
07:37:58 <newsham> hysterical mistakes do not die
07:38:15 <b_jonas> so now if you want to avoid confusion (not always the case in esolangs), you make your syntax and precedence and associativity similar to either C or APL, thus helping people reading and writing code
07:39:03 <b_jonas> (or to forth, that's the third choice I guess)
07:41:02 <coppro> I turnip who I turnip, and I radish who I radish. I haven't potated a man unless I'd potatoed him. I have never been known to carrot a woman, unless she was carrotted by me. I beet who I beet, but most of all, I yam who I yam.
07:41:25 <newsham> parenthesis: the great equalizer
07:41:34 <coppro> newsham: I thought that was \sim
07:42:07 <Sgeo> What does Ada's associativity for and and or count as?
07:42:19 <Sgeo> (Parentheses required. Not really similar to C or APL or Forth afaik)
07:42:38 <coppro> Sgeo: non-associative with respect to each other
07:43:35 <newsham> what can be expected when you associate indiscriminantly
07:44:26 <b_jonas> For example, C, python, javascript, SQL, Haskell, and even arithmetic in prolog use arithmetic notation similar to C. Forth and postscript use arithmetic notation similar to Forth.
07:45:06 <Sgeo> Woah the SWI-Prolog site looks different
07:45:06 <newsham> haskell has /= and `shiftL`... blasphemy!
07:45:26 <b_jonas> Smalltalk is strange, its syntax precedence rules aren't similar to either APL or C.
07:45:35 <b_jonas> newsham: so? prolog has \= and =<
07:45:54 <newsham> so how can you lump themin with C?
07:46:03 <b_jonas> it's not really C-like but their precedence is still C-like
07:46:09 <Sgeo> I thought APL precedence was right-to-left? Smalltalk is left-to-right for binary operators, so I'd call that similar
07:46:13 <newsham> comparedtothe c/perl/javascript/java/python monoculture
07:46:14 <Sgeo> Or am I assuming that APL is like J?
07:46:42 <Bike> the real math question is, what branch cuts do you use
07:46:55 <newsham> theres really not much diversity in computer languages
07:47:01 <newsham> then again they've only been around for half a century
07:47:05 <b_jonas> Sgeo: I'm not quite sure how smalltalk work, but I think it has named messages having higher precedence than symbol, similar to Haskell, or something
07:47:11 <b_jonas> Sgeo: frankly, I don't know how it works
07:47:17 <b_jonas> but I don't think it's like APL
07:47:52 <Sgeo> I constrained my statement to binary operators. Named messages with one argument (self) have higher precedence. Messages with several have lowest precedence
07:48:08 <b_jonas> Sgeo: smalltalk is one of those old languages like BASIC or MIX assembler that were invented before C and APL got very popular
07:48:13 <Sgeo> (Ok, maybe my use of 'argument' is confusing)
07:48:31 <b_jonas> eg. MIXAL has everything parenthisized right to left, the opposite way from APL
07:49:08 <b_jonas> Sgeo: "Named messages with one argument have higher precedence. Messages with several have lowest precedence" ok
07:51:59 <b_jonas> for the record, BASIC has precedence rules that are very similar to C but not quite the same:
07:52:48 <b_jonas> in particular, in BASIC, - has a higher precedence than +, and / has a higher precedence than *, so X*Y/Z is parenthisized as X*(Y/Z) in BASIC,
07:53:28 <b_jonas> whereas Pascal has less usual rules, with AND (bitwise operator) having the same precedence as *
07:53:48 <b_jonas> both of these probably have these because they were invented before C got so popular
07:56:29 <b_jonas> Sgeo: as for smalltalk, I think unary operators having a higher precedence than binary ones is enough to make me say that Smalltalk arithmetic syntax is not similar to APL
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09:42:14 <fizzie> http://www.blitzortung.org/Webpages/index.php?lang=en&page_0=11 it's like a wall of thunder
09:51:41 <TieSoul> guys. If the y instruction gets a value higher than the length of the stack, does it return 0 or the bottom value of the stack?
09:59:46 <fizzie> I think most natural would be for it to pick a 0 if you ask it to pick something "under the bottom", so to say.
09:59:51 <fizzie> But that's just an opinion.
10:00:26 <TieSoul> so it's undefined behaviour?
10:00:44 <fizzie> Based on the view that the empty-stack-pops-a-0 is conceptually as if there were an infinite amount of zeros on each stack.
10:00:57 <TieSoul> Because I don't remember seeing it in the spec
10:02:01 <fizzie> It does not seem to be explicitly specified, no.
10:15:57 <TieSoul> can I run befunge code within this chat?
10:20:37 <fizzie> Don't think you need the newline here,
10:25:18 <b_jonas> and how do you run befunge code with multiple lines?
10:30:48 <TieSoul> !befunge98 9876543210yf8+y2+y.@
10:32:15 <TieSoul> !befunge98 9876543210yf8+y2+02pn02gy.@
10:32:37 <TieSoul> !befunge98 0yf8+y2+02pn98765432102gy.@
10:41:59 <fizzie> !befunge98 0yf8+y2+02pn987654321 02gy. 02g1+y. 02g1-y. @
10:42:40 <TieSoul> I don't think that's how it should behave
10:42:51 <fizzie> It seems to be the wrong way around, perhaps.
10:43:07 <fizzie> Since making the number larger makes it pick a value (7) closer to top.
10:45:01 <TieSoul> so if it's larger than the size of y, it gives you the values from the bottom of the stack?
10:46:27 <fizzie> !befunge98 3y :884**% \884**/:884**% \884**/:884**% \884**/ ,,,, @
10:50:12 <fizzie> It might even be a cfunge bug.
10:51:43 <fizzie> [if past the y-pushed stack:] stack_push(ip->stack, stack_get_index(ip->stack, request - sysinfo_tmp_stack->top)); (sysinfo.c:408) and stack_get_index *seems* to interpret 0 as the bottom of the stack, not the top.
10:53:56 <fizzie> @tell Vorpal Potential cfunge bug: http://sprunge.us/IWfZ -- if my quick glance at how the stack works was right, anyway.
10:55:23 <fizzie> I would've expected mycology to test using y for picking, however.
10:56:05 <TieSoul> so I guess that's how it's supposed to work?
11:00:42 <fizzie> I don't think so. I mean, it's supposed to count from the top.
11:01:40 <fizzie> Unfortunately, mycology's test is "symmetric".
11:02:00 <TieSoul> but that doesn't explain why it thinks that mine doesn't work
11:02:12 <TieSoul> when mine says 2 with my code
11:03:51 <fizzie> @tell Vorpal It's not picked up by mycology because that tests whether n34500g2+y picks a "4", and that's right there in the middle, same index no matter which direction it's counted.
11:04:48 <fizzie> You could try the exact sequence that mycology does, though of course it might've gotten confused by something else.
11:05:58 <TieSoul> how do I encrypt my 4 letters into a handprint? :P
11:06:07 <fizzie> That's ny0yaa 1++k$ 00p n34500g2+y and then it expects the stack to be [top] 4 5 4 3 [bottom].
11:08:40 <TieSoul> it seems y puts [0 0] on the stack
11:09:21 <TieSoul> so that the stack is [top] 4 0 0 5 4 3 [bottom]
11:09:57 <TieSoul> okay I forgot to increment the count somewhere
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11:10:24 <fizzie> I don't rightly know why mycology gets the offset for picking that complicatedly.
11:11:45 <TieSoul> alright now everything in mycology works up to the shrinking bounds
11:13:38 <TieSoul> after it says "GOOD: form feed does not appear to exist in Funge-Space" it gets stuck in an infinite loop
11:14:58 <TieSoul> and I can't figure out why
11:16:51 <TieSoul> Everything before that point's a GOOD.
11:17:10 <fizzie> Hm. Well, according to Vorpal, the next test is "GOOD: y reports shrunk bounds correctly after spacing top-left corner".
11:17:57 <TieSoul> so something goes wrong in the loop that spaces the corner
11:19:54 <fizzie> !befunge98 "CFUN" 000p 101p 4> #; \ 01g*00g+00p 01g884***01p 1-:#;_ 00g. @
11:19:59 <fizzie> As for the fingerprint encoding, that's one way.
11:20:54 <TieSoul> alright, I haven't decided on a name for my interpreter yet
11:21:25 <fizzie> !perl print unpack('N', 'CFUN'); # or just, you know
11:22:08 <TieSoul> I guess I have to decide on a name for my interpreter :P
11:22:42 <TieSoul> I'll go with FWIP (Funge Work-In-Progress) for now :P
11:22:56 <TieSoul> !perl print unpack('N', 'FWIP');
11:23:06 <fizzie> I guess if fungot ever gets a Funge-98 interpreter (not very likely), it's going to be FNGT.
11:23:06 <fungot> fizzie: might need to modify the semantics of scheme, even from poor instructors. x_x. since you can define
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11:33:12 <fungot> b_jonas: huh?!? that sounds bad. indeed, what about
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11:33:16 <fungot> b_jonas: i think i wouldn't open anything official in a place where most of the textbooks were fairly standard ones. stewart for complex analysis.
11:33:20 <b_jonas> fungot: freedom is slavery
11:33:20 <fungot> b_jonas: i didn't finish the kipple interpreter, ork can create the function yourself. :p
11:36:00 <b_jonas> fungot: ignorance is strength
11:36:01 <fungot> b_jonas: on another note, i've almost got it... thanx! :) fnord je? all those are operators.
11:39:06 <fizzie> Didn't know fungot was making an interpreter.
11:39:07 <fungot> fizzie: can't think of any situation where you did something like
11:39:37 <fizzie> fungot: Don't you be disparaging me, you piece of code.
11:39:37 <fungot> fizzie: goal is assembly in sexps
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11:44:23 <Tiesoul> I'm going to have to run Mycology in debug mode
11:44:28 <Tiesoul> this is going to take a while :P
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11:45:34 <b_jonas> fungot: do you prefer languages where the side effects of evaluation of multiple arguments to a function happen in an undefined order, such as C or scheme, or languages where they happen in a well-defined order?
11:45:35 <fungot> b_jonas: c99 preprocesses the same way as brainfuck, ook, spoon... http://copocoto.sdf-eu.org/ pub/ scheme-repository/ fnord/ fnord
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11:57:49 <TieSoul> okay I can't figure out why mycology puts my into an infinite loop
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14:49:32 <elliott> fizzie: seems like a mycology bug too
14:50:05 <fizzie> Well, it's not a bug, just a deficiency.
14:51:35 <fizzie> @tell Deewiant Mycology test for picking with y picks out the middle element of a three-element stack (4 out of 3,4,5), hence not noticing if the implementation mistakenly counts from the bottom of the stack instead of the top.
15:00:32 <Deewiant> fizzie: Out of curiosity re. getting the offset complicatedly, is there a simple way?
15:01:44 <Deewiant> fizzie: And feel free to select out of a) nickname in commit msg b) realname in commit msg c) both d) no attribution
15:03:18 <TieSoul> hey Deewiant, I'm writing a Befunge-98 interpreter, and it gets into an infinite loop when Mycology tries to space the top-left corner for a test, and I can't figure out why.
15:04:24 <TieSoul> (what I do know is that the interpreter does not shrink the bounds, but when I fix that it slows my interpreter down immensely.)
15:05:38 <Deewiant> So your last GOOD output is still the form feed one?
15:06:42 <TieSoul> everything before that is GOOD except one instance where y reports a wrong upper bound.
15:06:55 <Deewiant> And presumably you don't know where you're infinite-looping? :-)
15:07:25 <TieSoul> I suspect it's when Mycology tries to space the corner/
15:08:07 <Deewiant> That would put you somewhere in here I guess:
15:08:09 <Deewiant> >' 0a-6738*+*p>5b*11p>11g::' \0a-p#v_v Clear area used for
15:08:13 <Deewiant> >1-:::+\pa-:11p22p>11g::' \22gp#v_a-11p22g:2+#v_$28*:1+y\y1+
15:09:33 <Deewiant> Or the wraparound immediately after, if you report the correct least point
15:09:46 <Deewiant> But I guess you don't so it's likely just one of those loops
15:10:20 <TieSoul> y reports the least point p has been used on.
15:11:29 <Deewiant> Anyway, I'd suggest figuring out how far you get
15:12:12 <Deewiant> Some simple hackery like if (x == 41 && y == 201) print("got out of first loop\n"); or whatever
15:13:20 <TieSoul> well, it does not get out of the first loop
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15:15:19 <TieSoul> it gets stuck inside the first loop
15:15:25 <TieSoul> it goes in then doesn't come out
15:16:30 <Deewiant> That loop is just a fairly simple countdown from 55, nothing too weird going on
15:17:16 <Deewiant> I'd suspect something quite fundamental like the stack or funge-space getting messed up
15:17:49 <Deewiant> Or then an unlucky bug in ' or \ or something, but I think all the instructions in that loop have been used so much at that point that it would've shown up earlier...
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15:19:34 <TieSoul> it seems to get stuck before that
15:19:44 <TieSoul> I tested the wrong coords.
15:20:29 <Deewiant> Not much to get stuck on between the form feed message printer and that loop, a bug in ; perhaps?
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15:22:39 <Deewiant> What language are you writing your interpreter in, btw
15:23:05 <TieSoul> I guess it's a bug in wrapping using ;.
15:24:22 <TieSoul> hrm, but comments currently take up ticks in my implementation and move along just like normal. (it's not concurrent don't worry I'll fix that if it gets concurrent)
15:24:57 <Deewiant> Darn, PyFunge was one of the "revived to beat Mycology" interpreters, so you won't be the first
15:26:14 <TieSoul> well, I do everything in Python :P
15:28:12 <Deewiant> Nothing wrong with that, was just wondering whether it'd be a new language for the hall of fame or whatever
15:29:37 <TieSoul> damn, I really want to test the fingerprints I've implemented :P
15:31:11 <TieSoul> lemme see if it gets through if I delete the ;s
15:31:53 <TieSoul> well, it doesn't get through
15:32:03 <TieSoul> which means I tested the wrong coords again
15:32:39 <Deewiant> You mentioned a debug mode (I assume it outputs a trace or something), maybe set it to turn on when y >= 200 or something? :-P
15:38:26 <TieSoul> it's definitely a bug in the ;
15:38:56 <TieSoul> because it gets infini-looped in the tick after ; is executed
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15:43:25 <TieSoul> the IP seems to not advance despite the delta being positive, while in the ;.
15:43:40 <TieSoul> I got this by making spaces take up a tick inside ;s
15:44:49 <TieSoul> the loop says "x,y = move(x, y)" so every tick it should move irrelevant of if it's in a comment.
15:49:55 <TieSoul> It's definitely a wrapping bug
15:56:09 <TieSoul> If I try making another file consisting of:
15:56:51 <TieSoul> it does not give me that wrapping error
15:57:14 <Deewiant> You might need to write something to negative space first
15:58:17 <TieSoul> adding 01-1p to the beginning still doesn't give me the error
16:00:15 <elliott> has anyone tried the unrolling type trick for common deltas like fizzie's -93 interpreter had?
16:03:32 <TieSoul> adding a form feed to the line with comments doesn't work either
16:04:13 <elliott> Deewiant: https://gist.github.com/fis/6898996 has it, I think
16:05:26 <Deewiant> TieSoul: I suggest either debugging Mycology as-is, or copying Mycology up to the failing point and removing needless lines until it's small enough to debug
16:05:38 <Deewiant> (And still exhibits the problem)
16:07:53 <Deewiant> elliott: So complete copies of the code for different deltas? Hasn't been done in -98 afaik. (The resulting binary size, think of the floppies!)
16:08:19 <elliott> Deewiant: right, something like that. it seems like you could eliminate a lot of indirection and branches for the common case.
16:08:36 <elliott> maybe you could even do something like just preloading N instructions along a delta, and then executing them as a linear program, bailing if the delta changes
16:08:50 <elliott> I don't know if that'd help much.
16:09:05 <Deewiant> Depending on the funge-space implementation it might
16:09:19 <elliott> preload N instructions as things to computed-goto to :)
16:09:25 <elliott> (and bail if instructions get rebound or delta changed or whatever)
16:09:29 <TieSoul> copying four lines surrounding the one that wraps using ; doesn't exhibit the problem
16:09:52 <elliott> I forget, fungespace stores 32-bit values usually right?
16:10:34 <TieSoul> in -98 it can be anything according to spec
16:10:41 <elliott> I always kinda wondered what it'd be like if you stored cells that are valid instructions as computed-goto pointers.
16:10:58 <elliott> and then used invalid pointers for other cells.
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16:11:21 <elliott> or even not invalid pointers, just have N copies of reflect :)
16:11:24 <elliott> you'd only save one switch/case I suppose.
16:11:38 <elliott> I guess that's kind of pointless because it doesn't optimise where it actually matters (e.g., fungespace)
16:11:41 <TieSoul> for example, my implementation features arbitrary-sized cells (called 'inf'-sized cells by y)
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16:12:24 <elliott> TieSoul: right, I just checked the spec. I just meant that it's not like 32-bit stack, 8-bit fungespace
16:12:44 <elliott> arbitrary-sized cells are still illegal I think :)
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16:13:18 <TieSoul> "1 cell containing the number of bytes per cell (global env). aka cell size. Typically 4, could also be 2, 8, really really large, infinity, etc."
16:13:27 <elliott> yeah, but you can't push infinity to the stack.
16:13:51 <TieSoul> in python: push(float('inf'))
16:13:55 <elliott> or if you can, then your cells are no longer "signed integers" and so you break the spec.
16:13:57 <Deewiant> That thinko's been fixed in later revisions
16:14:34 <elliott> https://github.com/catseye/Funge-98/blob/master/doc/funge98.markdown I guess this is the canonical spec
16:14:46 <elliott> 1 cell containing the number of bytes per cell (global env).
16:14:54 <elliott> okay, yeah. so I just don't believe arbitrary-sized cells are legal
16:15:14 <Deewiant> It might have been just a simplification in Chris's head when he did the Markdown conversion
16:15:40 <elliott> the github commits say it's the "2004 revision"
16:15:54 <elliott> so I suspect the version on quadium.net is just from 1998
16:16:11 <Deewiant> If you look at the git log it starts from an HTML import which still says the "really really large, infinity" stuff and then it just gets removed in the Markdown conversion process
16:16:15 <elliott> oh :/ the html version has it, yeah
16:16:25 <elliott> I think we actually asked chris about this though?
16:17:25 <elliott> TieSoul: I assume you just push -1?
16:17:37 <elliott> if you're actually pushing a float then that's terrifyingly against-spec
16:17:39 <Deewiant> elliott: Like he said he pushes inf
16:17:55 <elliott> the spec is very clear about cells being integers. :p
16:18:13 <TieSoul> Python's inf is kind of an edge case imo :S
16:18:15 <elliott> can you massage inf into some other float or do otherwise-wacky stuff given one on the stack?
16:18:16 <Deewiant> Maybe Mycology should check that it's a sensible value by dividing it by itself and aborting if the result is not 1 :-P
16:18:26 <elliott> TieSoul: it's just an IEEE floating point value...
16:18:59 <elliott> now, if you made the whole stack floats, that would be exciting.
16:19:47 <Deewiant> Wasn't there an interpreter in a float-only language, I forget
16:21:56 <elliott> probably someone has done JS.
16:22:02 <elliott> albeit likely very noncompliantly.
16:22:21 <TieSoul> okay so I have made mycology bypass that portion of the code.
16:22:28 <TieSoul> so I can test fingerprints
16:22:56 <TieSoul> and while testing ORTH, it loops over the tests for S and X for some reason
16:22:58 <Deewiant> Don't be surprised if shit breaks randomly because fingerprint tests assume that everything works, moreso than the previous parts
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17:25:05 <elliott> I guess the problem with "JITting" -98 naively is that the IP kinda changes delta a lot.
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17:30:29 <Deewiant> Unless you write Unefunge, and why wouldn't you?
17:34:17 <elliott> maybe you could follow constant-delta-instructions as you JIT the instructions from fungespace. but at that point, why not just interpret the instructions as you go?
17:38:10 <Deewiant> You could have one thread run ahead decoding, but then decoding is almost always the bottleneck anyway
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17:43:39 <Deewiant> fizzie: Too late, no attribution it is
17:46:47 <fizzie> Deewiant: I completely missed your comment, fancy that. But anyway, yad+y{...} seems simpler than the y0yaa1++k${...}n there is.
17:47:32 <fizzie> Where {...} denotes use-the-value instead of the regular meanings of {}.
17:48:59 <fizzie> Unless maybe you don't want to use the "pick one cell" functionality before testing it, or something.
17:51:39 <Deewiant> The "pick one cell" has been tested earlier and it seems like it's treated as fatal if it doesn't work
17:52:29 <fizzie> !befunge98 "NRTS"4( 0y ad+k$ > #;:!4*jD#;< @ just curious
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17:52:44 <fizzie> Well, that was boring.
17:53:10 <Deewiant> ad+k$ will be off-by-one vs. ad+y
17:53:28 <fizzie> Yes, but I was doing something else here.
17:53:39 <fizzie> (Namely, dropping also the ad+'th cell.)
17:58:19 <fizzie> V. fancy, a .systems domain.
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18:34:14 <TieSoul> what esolang shall I implement? :P
18:34:28 <TieSoul> oh right I was going to do spiral
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18:43:16 <Koen_> TieSoul: you should try When
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18:54:32 <TieSoul> how do I implement signed 8-bit integers in Python? Do I just do if val >= 128: val -= 255 and if val <= -129: val += 255?
18:55:58 <TieSoul> if I do val % 128, it'll put me at 0, not -128, at overflow.
18:57:33 <elliott> >>> ((128 + 128) % 256) - 128
18:58:26 <elliott> you could also use ctypes.c_byte
18:58:43 <b_jonas> elliott: isn't that unsigned?
18:59:06 <elliott> I don't know if there's a c_int8_t though
18:59:18 <elliott> also why does this not exist in the stdlib other than in the FFI module :/
18:59:42 <b_jonas> actually, https://docs.python.org/3/library/ctypes.html seems to suggest c_byte corresponds to the C type char, which can be either (but is more often signed)
19:01:04 <fizzie> Though to me b_jonas' link seems to suggest that c_byte corresponds to "signed char", and c_char corresponds to char.
19:01:28 <fizzie> Oh, the table and the list are kind of contradictory.
19:01:36 <TieSoul> so I can't add two c_bytes together.
19:02:37 <fizzie> The overview table says "char", but the long list in the reference section says "class ctypes.c_byte: Represents the C signed char datatype, and interprets the value as small integer."
19:03:03 <b_jonas> you'd better look at the source then if you want to be sure
19:03:40 <fizzie> Well, the int8 is at least a safe choice.
19:03:56 <TieSoul> c_byte(128) gives me c_byte(-128) when I print it
19:04:17 <fizzie> On your system, you mean.
19:04:30 <fizzie> If it's aligned with the platform's "char" type, it might not be the same everywhere.
19:05:05 <TieSoul> oh also, if I import c_int8 and use it, it gives me a c_byte when I print it.
19:05:19 <fizzie> Yes, it's listed to be "usually" an alias for c_byte.
19:06:13 <fizzie> "c_int8(x).value" looks like a worky (if unpretty) way to reduce a number to an 8-bit signed int.
19:08:11 <elliott> tbh I'd just write my own wrapper class at this point
19:09:26 <TieSoul> hopefully works on all systems.
19:10:10 <elliott> I wouldn't create a c_int8 and uncreate it every time.
19:10:13 <elliott> I assumed c_int8 could do arithmetic.
19:10:49 <fizzie> It's a mutable type, you can change its .value for arithmetic, I suppose.
19:11:59 <elliott> this is the part where I write class Octet(object): ...
19:13:39 <fizzie> There's also always the -(val & 0x80) | (val & 0x7f) if you wanted to stick with regular Python integers and just reduce it into the usual range of an 8-bit integer. On the plus side, it's also not immediately obvious to everyone what's happening.
19:13:43 <elliott> I wonder why they don't have arithmetic.
19:14:10 <TieSoul> besides, I'm only using it for a Spiral interpreter
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19:21:39 <fizzie> Tried to learn a bit about modern C++, but somehow the experience was unpleasant, even though I had gotten the impression the new thing was the bee's knees.
19:22:29 <shachaf> my experiences with bees have mostly been unpleasant. uncertain whether knees were involved
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19:28:00 <fizzie> I don't know. All these sources seemed to be so excited about it, but I couldn't get excited about rvalue references or "uniform" initialization.
19:28:06 <fizzie> Perhaps it's just an unfamiliarity problem.
19:45:08 <fizzie> As a single example, there's this http://www.stroustrup.com/C++11FAQ.html#unions which is all "look, we have 'improved' unions and now you get to write this thing that involves an explicit destructor call and placement new".
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20:30:18 <lambdabot> Plugin `quote' failed with: user error (parseRegex for Text.Regex.TDFA.String failed:"c++" (line 1, column 3):
20:30:19 <lambdabot> expecting empty () or anchor ^ or $, an atom, "|" or end of input)
20:30:32 <lambdabot> qwe1234 says: c++ is the way it is for a very, very good reason.
20:30:54 <lambdabot> thoughtpolice says: at least with python you have the comfort of knowing that one day you won't be woken up to discover your house is burned, family & dog raped, and civilization collapsed due to some C++ insanity that happens only when the moons are aligned correctly, it's friday, you're wearing a green t-shirt and it's the 27th day of june on a
20:34:40 <elliott> what does that even have to do with C++
20:34:54 <elliott> I could put literally any language I disliked in place of C++ there and it'd make as much sense
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20:42:50 <Vorpal> elliott, so this is interesting. I can connect to simple ssh/https on same port (using a multiplexing application) at the server, but it seems I can't connect to home at all
20:43:05 <elliott> home probably is firewalled or whatever?
20:43:08 <Vorpal> I guess they blacklisted connecting to consumer IPs?
20:43:12 <elliott> did you ~~forward the ports~~
20:43:32 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I can connect to home from my phone no issue, even over ssh
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20:44:35 <elliott> at this point I would try and get a VPN working any way I could and then just use it for everything, because this connection sounds fucked
20:44:57 <Vorpal> elliott, well, vpn over http proxy?
20:45:15 <elliott> OpenVPN uses TLS, I think.
20:45:27 <Vorpal> Really? I thought it used a custom protocol
20:45:35 <elliott> https://openvpn.net/index.php/open-source/337-why-openvpn-uses-tls.html
20:45:51 <elliott> for auth and key exchange at least
20:47:21 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway the current way is transparent. That is, the proxying daemon does some crazy stuff so that openssh/nginx sees the original source IP of the client
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20:47:48 <Vorpal> Uses some iptables magic. The mangle table. So black magic.
20:47:52 <elliott> btw, do they MITM SSL certs?
20:47:54 <elliott> I wouldn't put it past them
20:48:42 <fizzie> Probably not, if actual non-TLS-wrapped SSH (to the server) did work.
20:49:08 <elliott> oh, it wasn't wrapped at all?
20:49:17 <fizzie> It didn't sound like that, but maybe I missed something.
20:49:18 <elliott> but Vorpal said ssh on port 443 didn't work, earlier
20:49:35 <Vorpal> <@elliott> btw, do they MITM SSL certs? <-- don't think so no
20:49:51 <Vorpal> <@elliott> oh, it wasn't wrapped at all? <-- yes it worked when I did it to my vps
20:49:59 <Vorpal> And it used to work to home
20:50:07 <Vorpal> Thus I assumed they filtered it
20:50:33 <Vorpal> But it turns out they blocked the range of IPs my home ADSL uses
20:50:43 <elliott> I still think Tor is the lowest-effort solution here :)
20:50:58 <fizzie> Perhaps their IDS just noticed (afterwards) there was some non-TLS traffic and blackholed it.
20:51:07 <fizzie> You'll find out if they filter out your VPS too, I guess.
20:51:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, well that could be an issue. My home was available for moths
20:51:45 <Vorpal> Anyway, I have dynamic IP at home so hm
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20:52:02 <Vorpal> Anyway I just need to write an init.d script for this now
20:52:13 <fizzie> "I think you mean a systemd service."
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20:53:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, not on debian *stable*
20:54:37 <fizzie> I had to install BIND 9.9 from wheezy-backports.
20:55:25 <fizzie> It brought in some sort of systemd-fakery-thing, since wheezy (stable) is not systemd, but the place it's backported from is.
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20:56:41 <fizzie> Package: init-system-helpers "This package contains helper tools that are necessary for switching between the various init systems that Debian contains (e.g. sysvinit, upstart, systemd). An example is deb-systemd-helper, a script that enables systemd unit files without depending on a running systemd."
21:04:48 <Vorpal> Well I finished the sshttpd init.d script
21:04:58 <fizzie> Though the /etc/init.d/bind9 script looks perfectly regular, so I have no idea what init-system-helpers is for.
21:04:59 <Vorpal> sslh didn't work, but sshttpd does
21:05:35 <fizzie> While it says "helper tools", deb-systemd-invoke and deb-systemd-helper are the only things in it.
21:06:17 <Vorpal> Hm think I'll restart my VPS to check that it properly sets everything up
21:06:24 <zzo38> Now I have added three new instructions (PUSH, POP, GSO) into VM360 so now all 64 instruction opcodes are defined.
21:10:34 <zzo38> I have a flowchart template from IBM, although some are marked "COMPOSITE SYMBOL (see envelope for details)" and I do not have the envelope.
21:12:16 <zzo38> Do you know what is written on the envelope?
21:13:44 <shachaf> zzo38: No. It reminds me of the Zork Zero calendar.
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21:32:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't have time to look at that cfunge bug currently. At the earliest during the weekend
21:33:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, but is it that the y index for picking is the wrong direction?
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21:34:24 <Vorpal> [13:43:45] <fizzie> !befunge98 0yf8+y2+02pn987654321 02gy. 02g1+y. 02g1-y. @
21:34:24 <Vorpal> [13:43:46] <EgoBot> 8 7 9
21:34:28 <Vorpal> So what should that output?
21:35:52 <Vorpal> @tell fizzie http://sprunge.us/RFAF
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22:05:50 <zzo38> I have realized that optimizing a Z-machine program into the absolute smallest size is a very complicated problem which depends on a very large number of things. This includes figuring out which tables should overlap, deciding what should go into the fwords table, whether or not a custom character set packing table should be used, whether or not certain things should be aligned, and many other things.
22:06:40 <fizzie> @tell Vorpal Yes, and it should output "2 3 1". (The K cells "conceptually" pushed by y are on top of the existing contents of the stack, so if the argument to y is K+N, the picked cell should be the N'th counting from the top, not bottom.)
22:07:34 <zzo38> myname: It is probably at least NP hard.
22:07:53 <myname> zzo38: that's not a proof
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22:10:14 <b_jonas> it's probably way not in NP, because checking equivalence of z-machines is probably not computable
22:10:54 <oerjan> <myname> "the not entirely possible case" <-- that was the typo i mentioned earlier that was too good to correct
22:10:57 <b_jonas> this applies not only to z-machine but basically any programming language that is not very restricted
22:11:20 <zzo38> Yes, although I don't only mean the instruction sequences, but also the way data is packed in memory.
22:12:37 <zzo38> Even to optimize the way data is packed in memory would be complicated in this case.
22:12:40 <oerjan> b_jonas: checking equivalence of finite state machines is certainly computable. not sure what complexity class.
22:13:13 <b_jonas> oerjan: deterministic or non-deterministic finite machines?
22:13:38 <b_jonas> I'm not sure if it's possible in polynomial time for even deterministic finite machines,
22:13:55 <b_jonas> but it's at least checkable in exponential time.
22:14:17 <oerjan> there's that state minimization algorithm, i recall. does that give a canonical form?
22:14:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, just packing is probably around NP-complete or something
22:14:47 <b_jonas> (I can't definitely say because I don't know much about the z-machine)
22:16:01 <oerjan> so that suffices then.
22:16:26 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, but probalby not in polynomial time
22:16:53 <zzo38> b_jonas: Different things require different alignment and can exist in different areas of memory, for one thing. And then, there is possibilities of overlapping tables, and if data at one address can be safely used for more than one purpose. But, there is more!
22:16:53 <b_jonas> I don't know what you can do in polynomial time exactly
22:17:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: can you have a table with holes?
22:17:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: as in, you have some fixed data you can shift anywhere in memory, but it's not continuous, it has a large field of don't care in the middle
22:18:29 <b_jonas> and can you have any number of such tables that you can move independently?
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22:19:00 <b_jonas> if so, then finding an alignment is probably NP-hard because of PCP
22:19:15 <zzo38> b_jonas: In some cases, yes. For example if you do not need all 96 fwords then it is possible to put the gaps in the middle instead of at the end. Furthermore, there is the case that part of the table can be used for another purpose, and alignment is required. There can also be gaps between tables.
22:19:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: hmm wait, what I was thinking might not work
22:19:59 <b_jonas> I still suspect it's NP-hard, but can't prove
22:20:30 <zzo38> The short description of an object is one thing that can include gaps (possibly used for another property table), due to the way it is encoded.
22:21:05 <b_jonas> ok, I think it's probably NP-hard, but I'm not willing to try to find a proof this evening
22:22:40 <zzo38> Furthermore you might make fwords table point into the vocabulary table or into other text strings. You might also have overlapping text strings.
22:22:58 <oerjan> <b_jonas> I don't know what you can do in polynomial time exactly <-- in some sense, no one knows, and that's why P vs. NP is still unsolved :P
22:23:41 <zzo38> Because packed text strings contain shift codes, you could even have one text consisting entirely of lowercase letters and spaces, and another which is the same but in uppercase, if neither contains fwords you can make them to overlap.
22:24:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: are the text strings ended with a delimiter, or length prefixed, or is the length in the table? (not really relevant to the complexity, just asking)
22:25:25 <zzo38> b_jonas: Ended with a delimiter; specifically, the high bit of a 16-bit word is set to indicate that it ends.
22:25:42 <zzo38> However, short descriptions *also* contain a length prefix.
22:26:56 <zzo38> (And vocabulary entries always have a fixed length.)
22:28:35 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo <Sgeo> Is there a particularly deep reason that multiplication having higher precedence than addition seems to be the most convenient order? <-- my hunch is that it's because you can get any polynomial into the canonical form with sums outermost, but the opposite is factorization and much harder.
22:28:48 <zzo38> Now you can see some of the considerations which must be made.
22:29:47 <zzo38> (The length of a short description is used to know how many bytes to skip over in order to find the first property.)
22:29:49 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo therefore it's most useful to have the precedence such that the canonical form parses easily without parentheses.
22:30:56 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo i guess infinite series also add to this being convenient.
22:31:37 <zzo38> Many considerations also would have to be different depending if it is ZIP, EZIP, XZIP, or YZIP.
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22:41:11 <oerjan> <fizzie> http://www.blitzortung.org/Webpages/index.php?lang=en&page_0=11 it's like a wall of thunder <-- bornholm seems to be really getting it now
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23:08:55 <oerjan> hm apparently there's supposed to be thunder here in a couple hours
23:09:15 <oerjan> not so common in the middle of the night...
23:09:42 <oerjan> maybe i should keep that page open to see it approaching :)
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23:12:31 <oerjan> i see one strike a bit east of here from 20 minutes ago
23:14:00 <oerjan> much more activity down near germany, but since it's a german site they've probably got more sensors there
23:14:41 <oerjan> now there was one in sweden
23:15:30 <oerjan> oh if you choose detectors it shows you which reported each strike
23:15:47 <oerjan> it seems they don't have to be close
23:16:58 <oerjan> well, dependent on strength probably, but several strikes in german/poland get detections as far away as finland
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23:17:55 <oerjan> and that one in sweden got detected from britain outside the map
23:19:26 <oerjan> oh there's been another strike just east of here
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23:22:06 <oerjan> heh much more lightning in the usa than in europe
23:22:13 <oerjan> i guess because it's day there
23:23:06 <FireFly> Stockholm got quite some showers and a bit of thunder a few days ago
23:24:24 <oerjan> i should learn where things are in sweden, afaik the lightning right now is about where i thought stockholm was
23:25:43 <oerjan> ah stockholm is further south
23:25:52 <FireFly> Stockholm is the part that sticks out, kinda hard to miss
23:25:52 <oerjan> everything in sweden is so far south
23:27:17 <FireFly> I wonder how that detection works
23:27:20 <oerjan> bloody google maps has changed its ui to be bloody annoying
23:28:50 <oerjan> or maybe i've just got too used to two-finger scrolling working in other sites
23:29:03 <oerjan> (although the ui looks different, too)
23:29:05 <FireFly> 2Ground-based and mobile detectors calculate the direction and severity of lightning from the current location using radio direction-finding techniques together with an analysis of the characteristic frequencies emitted by lightning. Ground-based systems use triangulation from multiple locations to determine distance, while mobile systems estimate distance using signal frequency and attenuation."
23:29:27 <oerjan> FireFly: did you select the detectors button
23:29:42 <oerjan> it looks much cooler then
23:30:45 <mhi^> oerjan: Pretty cool website. :)
23:31:07 <oerjan> thank fizzie who linked it earlier
23:32:26 <oerjan> i'm wondering if south america has really bad coverage or if it's just because it's winter there
23:33:08 <oerjan> hm new zealand has a thunder storm but none in australia
23:33:42 <oerjan> http://www.blitzortung.org/Webpages/index.php?lang=en&page_0=20
23:34:12 <oerjan> that's oceania because i just clicked to it
23:34:25 <oerjan> usa had a _lot_ going on in comparison
23:35:21 <oerjan> nothing in asia either
23:35:41 <oerjan> they should have day now, no?
23:36:33 <oerjan> given japan is a listed subarea they surely must have some sensors there
23:37:58 <oerjan> a lonely strike somewhere in venezuela
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23:47:02 <zzo38> How could searchable noun phrases be compactly encoded for text adventure game?
23:48:29 <Taneb> Or something similar
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23:54:05 <zzo38> I mean it would also have to be able to tell which object you mean, which corresponds to such noun phrase (since there might be more than one), and that the decoding program is also small.
23:57:04 <zzo38> I could try to use the method similar to OASYS, possibly
00:00:47 <zzo38> Although maybe there is better way?
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00:13:11 <boily> hi all! I am in a panicking state! I'm trying to make windows boot!
00:13:26 <ion> Sorry to hear that.
00:14:03 <boily> I may have creatively destroyed the EFI on a friend's machine.
00:14:14 <boily> (in some very dubious and artistics maneuvers...)
00:18:39 <oerjan> i'm sure they were also EFIcient
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00:23:59 <boily> oerjan: you deserve a thorough mapole, you fiend.
00:25:07 <boily> the automated repair didn't work, rebuilding the BCD didn't work, on to the nuclear option.
00:25:43 <oerjan> i'll check if blitzortung picks it up
00:28:23 <oerjan> no lightning that far east in canada, it seems
00:29:07 <oerjan> http://www.blitzortung.org/Webpages/index.php?lang=en&page_0=30 hth
00:33:53 <boily> meanwhile, the EFI mystery persists. everything seems to be in the right place, I can select bootmgfw.efi from either grub or refind, but every time the machine just beeps and reboot.
00:34:01 <oerjan> oh, and don't forget to select the "detectors" button
00:37:07 <boily> it shines with lines.
00:45:49 <oerjan> @ask Deewiant <Deewiant> elliott: So complete copies of the code for different deltas? Hasn't been done in -98 afaik. (The resulting binary size, think of the floppies!) <-- isn't that what fizzie's jit did? although i don't recall him ever finishing it.
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00:56:29 <oerjan> the forecast lightning here doesn't seem to be materializing.
00:58:24 <boily> so the windows disc now suddenly refuses to repair windows for no apparent reason. screw me.
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01:48:40 <boily> oh well. I went the lazy way, and just installed that **** de câlisse de bâtard de **** in virtualbox.
01:48:50 <boily> time to go home. I need sleep.
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03:14:06 <zzo38> I found that someone has figured out how to do open source bitstream generation for FPGA without needing to figure out the bitstream format; it is done by making a bunch of small bitstreams for each primitive and then putting them together. http://www.isi.edu/~nsteiner/publications/soni-2013-bitstream-fccm13.pdf
03:15:16 <Bike> Really sad that that had to be done, though.
03:15:44 <newsham> "i'm living in a proprietary world and i am a proprietary girl"
03:15:49 <newsham> isnt that how the song goes?
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03:27:28 <zzo38> You could possibly do it even further, by making sets of microbitstreams that have corresponding sets for different FPGA models (including different vendors), and then store them in a ROM chip, and then you can program a FPGA without ever even touching the bitstreams at all!
03:29:20 <oerjan> that went a lot faster than the first 1000
03:32:39 <newsham> zzo: might have a big efficiency cost
03:33:11 <newsham> ie. if fpga blocks can do function of 6 inputs, and you end up only using functions of 2 inputs as your building block
03:36:06 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa, you're practically ahead of me
03:37:13 <shachaf> if you guess what people are asking for when they're unclear without pointing it out they'll just keep being unclear :'(
03:37:18 <zzo38> newsham: Yes, if you want maximum compatibility, but you could have a "microbitstream archive" which contains the bitstreams and rule files to combine them and the capability files, and then if you are tuning the compilation to specific systems you can use those otherwise you could only use a portable set, I think.
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03:38:37 <oerjan> shachaf: wait are you referring to any of my answers here
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03:39:01 <shachaf> that would be kind of rude though
03:39:42 <oerjan> i _do_ remember that there were a number of occasions when i got the right answer long after everyone else had misinterpreted the question.
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03:40:19 <oerjan> in fact, since i don't visit SO _all_ the time, that's probably how i get most of the ones i get
03:41:49 <oerjan> sometimes i just remember something slightly obscure
03:46:26 <oerjan> (my _last_ answer was of course something trivial which just popped up and i couldn't resist because it would put me over 2000)
03:50:13 <zzo38> Maybe it would help though, if they can make up a single chip which can be compatible with the format of this: http://blog.notdot.net/2012/10/Build-your-own-FPGA
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05:26:46 <Vorpal> <lambdabot> fizzie said 7h 19m 18s ago: Yes, and it should output "2 3 1". (The K cells "conceptually" pushed by y are on top of the existing contents of the stack, so if the argument to y is K+N, the picked cell should be the N'th counting from the top, not bottom.) <-- fair enough, should be an easy enough fix, but I *probably* won't have time until the weekend. Have you told Deewiant about it? He mig
05:26:46 <Vorpal> ht want to improve the test in mycology.
05:27:43 <Vorpal> Oh and, this means nobody is using y for pick very much I think. Otherwise this would have been found way sooner
05:32:18 <Vorpal> oerjan, also is it still Gregor that runs HackEgo?
05:33:53 <Vorpal> Right, EgoBot's cfunge version will need updating after this is fixed
05:33:58 <Vorpal> anyway, bbl now, really
05:36:15 <Sgeo> What's wrong with Befunge? Spec issue, issue in popular implementations?
05:41:15 <oerjan> issue in cfunge, which mycology's test accidentally doesn't catch
05:42:24 <oerjan> (y numbering stack elements in reverse order)
05:42:43 <oerjan> and it doesn't catch it because the test picks the middle element of the stack
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05:52:32 <fizzie> I think using y for picking is kinda-sorta considered cheating by some.
05:54:36 <fizzie> Not to mention that it might be quite slow in unoptimilized implementations.
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06:34:19 <Deewiant> @tell oerjan Possibly, I don't remember; fizzie would know. (But then, as you said, it was never finished, so the floppies still live.)
06:48:23 <fizzie> Oh, the delta thing. No, jitfunge didn't do that; only the different iterations of ff, a '93 interpreter.
06:49:30 <fizzie> jitfunge was a tracing jit (interpret, but also collect instruction traces while executing; then when re-encountered, compile traces with constant-propagation and such), which I consider to be a p. natural way of JITting Funge-98.
06:52:27 <fizzie> It can't compile across "computed goto" kind of dynamic things (j or x with non-constant arguments and the like), but those are (a) rare and (b) can be considered to separate "basic blocks" that you can compile to native code and then connect with conditional jumps.
06:55:54 <fizzie> There's also quite a lot of not-so-hard-but-tedious bookkeeping to figure out everything that needs to be invalidated when a 'p' is executed, at least if you want to try doing it somewhat optimally. Things like tracking which traces go across which playfield cells, and treating ;;-jumps (only a p of ';' matters) and stringmode (can be fixed by modifying the pushed constant) differently. And ...
06:56:00 <fizzie> ... tracking which wrapping traces would hit the new cell if boundaries are extended.
06:56:44 <fizzie> @tell oerjan NO (but see logs for details)
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07:40:03 <TieSoul> Hey guys, can anyone on Linux (who has Python) check if this works right on Linux? https://github.com/TieSoul/Multilang
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07:41:52 <TieSoul> did my message just now arrive in chat?
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07:42:37 <TieSoul> Yeah I asked because I was force-quitted
07:43:26 <TieSoul> it's a shell, and I'm most concerned with the directory stuff and file execution.
07:43:37 <TieSoul> I don't know if it works cross-platform
07:43:45 <quintopia> if i get it running, tell me commands to test
07:44:05 <TieSoul> if you have any files to test on
07:44:55 <TieSoul> do you have any brainfuck/befunge files to test on?
07:45:13 <quintopia> also can you call dir ls instead (at least alias it)
07:47:29 <TieSoul> can you just make a file containing "!dlroW olleH"bk,@ ?
07:47:39 <TieSoul> and save it as something.b98?
07:47:46 <TieSoul> then you could test with that
07:51:12 <quintopia> having nets issues on linux box hold please
07:53:46 <TieSoul> run Multilang.py when you're done cloning
08:22:23 <fizzie> Works -- http://sprunge.us/iVBQ -- for me.
08:22:52 <fizzie> First time I see a "Pascal string" in a Funge-98 hello-world, also.
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08:25:05 <fizzie> "gnirts"6 as opposed to 0"gnirts".
08:25:15 <fizzie> 0a"!dlroW olleH">:#,_@ is the conventional one.
08:26:04 <fizzie> (Though I always write 25* in place of a due to Befunge-93 roots.)
08:35:35 <fizzie> 55+ gets some use, too.
08:35:46 <fizzie> I don't know why I got stuck with 25*, but here we are.
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08:43:24 <fizzie> From the department's mailing list, in a note about someone's Master's thesis presentation: "-- our meeting room has AIR CONDITIONING --"
08:43:33 <fizzie> I guess that's one way to ensure an audience.
08:44:39 <fizzie> (This building in general doesn't do AC, it being considered a bit of a luxury in Finland when it was built, since it's so seldom needed here.)
08:45:11 <b_jonas> fizzie: does the note also mention free food or drinks?
08:53:28 <fizzie> No, since we don't tend to do those at thesis presentations. If it did, they'd probably run out of space in the meeting room.
09:06:56 <b_jonas> ah yes, and then you'd have to overflow to non-air-conditioned rooms
09:13:22 <fizzie> These last few days, it has been generally 28..29°C in this office.
09:43:10 <mroman> I like "our meeting room has a heater"
09:43:27 <mroman> soom big old lecture rooms get really cold in winter
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09:47:38 <fizzie> Around these parts, we know about heating but not about cooling.
10:09:43 <TieSoul> I'm implementing Whirl. Does Whirl use integers or floats?
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10:48:52 <fizzie> The reference implementation (in C++) has a memory made out of 'int's. I guess that's the thing to follow.
10:50:17 <TieSoul> I'm asking because the flash interpreter uses floats
10:50:46 <TieSoul> and I was too lazy to check the other implementations
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13:45:47 <mroman> Somebody wrote an interpreter with flash
13:46:17 <mroman> I presume Flash is a platform and the language behind it is afaik this ActionScript
13:48:59 <fizzie> As far as I know, yes, but arguably you could still call something that depends on the platform's features to be written "in Flash".
14:11:41 <TieSoul> I want to implement another esolang. Any suggestions? :P
14:17:22 <TieSoul> I like multi-dimensional languages
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15:00:54 <TieSoul> k, finished SNUSP (modular)
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15:19:23 <TieSoul> I use Python for everything
15:20:41 <KingOfKarlsruhe> 5 years ago I made a BF2Text, oklopol battled me and his implementation was awesome, also writtein in python
15:20:42 <TieSoul> check out https://github.com/TieSoul/Multilang. It's a shell for all languages I've written implementations of.
15:23:51 <KingOfKarlsruhe> TieSoul: I've made a Chip8 Interpreter, but its in java -.-, maybe you could recycle it
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15:47:41 <KingOfKarlsruhe> TieSoul: is this python 3? It doesn't work with python 2.7.3
15:50:17 <mhi^> Yup, it is. print(chr(s[i]), end="")
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16:23:07 <Vorpal> @tell fizzie Just pushed a fix for that cfunge issue.
16:24:00 <Vorpal> @tell Gregor You might want to update to latest cfunge trunk in EgoBot for the Befunge98 command. I fixed a bug with using y as pick counting incorrectly.
16:24:48 <Vorpal> TieSoul, Latest cfunge should now work correctly for y
16:25:30 <Vorpal> I should seriously move from launchpad to bitbucket or something at some point
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16:40:26 <FreeFull> Rustyfunge better, because fungus
16:44:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I wondered about that, why Iron* for C#
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17:06:15 <ais523_> OK, so the saga of "get a working copy of Visual Studio on a non-Internet connected system" continues
17:06:42 <ais523_> I tried installing Visual Studio Express 2012 (rather than 2013), which I have successfully done before via doing the registration on another computer
17:07:10 <ais523_> this started out fine, but the form you have to fill in to register it is not working, in the sense that the Continue button does nothing
17:07:34 <ais523_> with no indication of any required fields missing
17:07:55 <ais523_> in case it was a client-side scripting error, I edited the JS so that it would submit the form without validation, but the same page just reloads, again with no indication of anything I'd done wrong
17:08:44 <ais523_> I am now going to try 2010, because VS2012 Express didn't appear in the list of topics that Microsoft offer support with (maybe it's been discontinued?), but VS2010 Express did
17:10:07 <mroman> Aren't there CD-Versions of it available?
17:10:12 <ais523_> "Did you mean microsoft visual studio express 2020?"
17:10:15 <ais523_> mroman: I'm using the CD versions
17:10:24 <ais523_> they nonetheless require registration over the Internet
17:10:36 <ais523_> even though Microsoft specifically say that registration is optional, apparently Visual Studio doesn't follow the same rules
17:11:37 <ais523_> searching Microsoft's search engine for VS2010 failed, but DuckDuckGo found within one link of the appropriate page
17:11:41 <ais523_> let's see what happens here
17:13:01 <ais523_> Microsoft don't even give a sensible method of reporting that their website is broken
17:13:26 <ais523_> anyway, VS2010 is advertised as using the same registration method as VS2012, so in theory it should work unless the website is broken in the same way for both products
17:13:33 <ais523_> also, fewer allcaps in the menu, which has to help
17:13:40 <mroman> Yeah, looks like it prompts for registration even if you download the offline version
17:13:52 <ais523_> it says that before you download
17:14:04 <ais523_> so it's not malicious or misleading, just stupid
17:14:17 <ais523_> Microsoft must really want that marketing data
17:16:32 <ais523_> maybe Microsoft discontinued support for VS 2012 Express because they thought nobody was using it because they got no new registrations
17:17:05 <ais523_> also, that broken button (which must be broken for everyone, seeing as the mistake seems to be server-side) affects not just my unusual setup, but the most common setup for VS2012 Express
17:18:58 <Vorpal> ais523_, I use 2010 Ultimate from MSDNAA. Can't you get something like that too? I thought you worked at a university even
17:19:16 <ais523_> yeah but I won't necessarily be here forever
17:19:24 <Vorpal> ais523_, those licenses don't expire
17:19:36 <ais523_> I think they have limitations for academic use only, though, or whatever
17:19:36 <Vorpal> There are some non-commercial clauses and such but that is it
17:19:48 <Vorpal> ais523_, non-commercial. But I thought Express had that too?
17:20:04 <ais523_> Express actually has a business option although it's meant to be for evaluation only
17:20:19 <ais523_> if the limitation really is "noncommercial" only, that's possibly good enough for me
17:20:31 <ais523_> but really I prefer to do things in a way that other people can reproduce
17:20:33 <Vorpal> ais523_, pretty sure that is the case
17:20:47 <Vorpal> ais523_, anyway, even if it wasn't, who would ever know?
17:21:14 <ais523_> Vorpal: this is not the approach I have towards the law
17:21:48 <Vorpal> ais523_, It seems like a minor detail though in this case. I'm not suggesting using that as an argument for murder!
17:22:01 <Vorpal> Err argument is wrong English word
17:22:56 <ais523_> although, in general, I have a policy that companies that put ridiculous restrictions on their customers should have to live with the effects of their own policies
17:23:04 <ais523_> or, well, licenses generally
17:23:58 <Vorpal> ais523_, What would you think about a static analysis tool evaluation version that limited the number of results you opened by double clicking on the result (or right clicking and selecting goto). But listed file and line number in the result
17:24:17 <Vorpal> Would you just continue using it and opening the file manually?
17:24:37 <ais523_> that sounds like a reduced-feature version of software
17:24:39 <Vorpal> ais523_, This is not a theoretical question btw, there really is such a piece of software
17:24:50 <ais523_> if it was clear that the developer was happy with people using the reduced-feature version indefinitely, I'd be fine with it
17:24:59 <Vorpal> ais523_, if it wasn't clear?
17:25:05 <ais523_> then I'd probably avoid it
17:25:30 <ais523_> that said, I prefer to avoid closed-source software generally because it is so hard to fix bugs in it
17:26:08 <ais523_> (the thing that immediately started all this off was "open-source software which I want to fix a bug in but it only compiles in Visual Studio", but that's a distant goal now; I'm just trying to get Visual Studio installed at all, mostly to see if I can get aimake to work with it)
17:26:14 <Vorpal> ais523_, I fixed a bug in a compiled binary today though
17:26:52 <Vorpal> ais523_, via hte, (debian package ht) which is somewhat smart hex editing, showing the disassembly live while editing and such
17:26:59 <Vorpal> (and tracing jumps and what not)
17:27:18 <Vorpal> ais523_, it was looking for kernel major = 2 && minor > some-number-I-forgot
17:27:40 <Vorpal> So I adjusted the jump to basically kill the check
17:28:07 <ais523_> this is apparently why Windows 7 gives its version number as 6.1 if requested via the version number API
17:28:14 <ais523_> so that programs checking for major = 6 don't break
17:28:24 <Vorpal> ais523_, also setarch --uname-2.6 didn't work, since it read /proc/sys/kernel/osrelease
17:28:34 <ais523_> because 7 is pretty similar to Vista (6.0) bfrom a developer's point of view
17:29:18 <elliott> major/minor numbers for ABI type things are just a mistake.
17:29:24 <ais523_> anyway, I dislike Visual Studio for being excessively complicated, among other things
17:29:34 <Vorpal> ais523_, the tool is part of Intel Parallel Studio's tool to inject static analysis by wrapping your build system and recording compiled files
17:29:42 <Vorpal> You thought intel would get it right...
17:30:23 <Vorpal> ais523_, When intellisense works properly it is pretty nice
17:30:29 <Vorpal> doesn't work well for C++ at all though
17:30:36 <ais523_> that's not really what I was talking about
17:30:49 <ais523_> I'm fine with that sort of feature existing, and it is very helpful for Java and C#
17:31:00 <ais523_> I was thinking more of the build system interface
17:31:03 <Vorpal> ais523_, we use Visual Studio at work, but we disabled intelisense and use a separate third party add-on for better intelisense
17:31:14 <Vorpal> InteliSense for non-.NET just sucks
17:31:30 <Vorpal> At least in the older version of VS that we have
17:32:05 <Vorpal> ais523_, oh god the property sheet hell indeed
17:32:19 <Vorpal> ais523_, we are moving to a cmake-based system at work to get rid of that
17:32:35 <Vorpal> (also in the longer term we are moving to linux as well)
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17:35:01 <ais523_> anyway, another thing I'd be happy with would be to download a time-unlimited copy of the command-line compiler
17:35:07 <ais523_> and just use msbuild or aimake or something as glue
17:35:19 <ais523_> but Microsoft doesn't support that any more either, they made it part of Visual Studio
17:38:28 <maurer> Vorpal: what static analysis tool is this?
17:38:57 <Vorpal> maurer, the one that had that evaluation thing?
17:39:24 <Vorpal> maurer, a Windows-only tool that integrates with Visual Studio called "PVS Studio". It is okay.
17:39:35 <ais523_> oh, I've heard of that, but don't know what it does
17:39:39 <maurer> Not a binary static analysis thing
17:39:42 * maurer goes back to his corner
17:40:33 <Vorpal> Not too many false positives in my experience. Lint is pretty useless for example unless you use it from the get-go
17:41:32 <ais523_> splint is worse, because AFAICT it's too buggy to be useful
17:41:54 <ais523_> I found very minor, meaning-preserving changes to programs which would completely change its output
17:49:55 <Vorpal> ais523_, yes splint is useless
17:50:06 <Vorpal> ais523_, the clang static analysis is pretty nice too, but rather limited
17:50:14 <Vorpal> Getting better every version though
17:50:23 <ais523_> I've wanted a "splint done properly" for a while, but then Mozilla went and invented Rust
17:50:44 <ais523_> which looks pretty close to that, except better in every respect except it isn't a subset of C (which is only arguably an advantage)
17:51:23 <Vorpal> ais523_, Try clang static analysis, it can find rather complex control flows leading to an error. I have seen it detect an error that happens after 30 steps of control flow
17:52:07 <ais523_> I haven't tried it myself, but apparently another NH4 developer runs it every now and again
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17:54:20 <Vorpal> ais523_, The intel one is nice too. When it doesn't check the kernel version that is ;P
17:54:58 <ais523_> hmm, so apparently attempting to use system restore to uninstall Visual Studio (because installing versions of software out-of-order tends to cause DLL problems), it now won't boot; the loading screen finishes, then there's a black screen rather than the login screen which doesn't respond to input and has no mouse cursor
17:55:46 * ais523_ force-reboots twice to get the repair screen to come up
17:56:38 <ais523_> "There was a problem with refreshing your PC. No changes were made."
17:56:49 <Vorpal> ais523_, so uninstall didn't work?
17:57:26 <ais523_> I'll try another System Restore to an earlier restore point
17:59:33 <Vorpal> ais523_, do you have a proper backup?
17:59:39 <Vorpal> That would likely work better
18:00:03 <ais523_> of all my files as of recently, yes; for Windows itself, there's just the recovery partition
18:00:07 <ais523_> but I fear it might uninstall Linux
18:00:16 <ais523_> I don't keep files I care about on the Windows side
18:00:37 <Vorpal> ais523_, I meant like a disk image to overwrite windows with
18:14:57 <ais523_> hmm, well the system restore just got stuck on "Initialising..."
18:16:39 <ais523_> anyone know what the Windows Event Viewer is called from the command line? I got to a working command line
18:18:20 <ais523_> hmm, I have two drives, X: and C:
18:18:28 <ais523_> which seem similar but not identical
18:18:53 <ais523_> e.g. if I try to load files from C:, it sometimes looks in X: and then says they aren't there
18:18:59 <ais523_> this is a /very/ good argument for text-based log formats
18:19:53 <ais523_> hmm, X: seems reminiscent of an initramfs or the like
18:20:06 <ais523_> it has the directory structure I'd expect for C:, but a different set of programs and no user data
18:21:56 * ais523_ attempts a "System Restore Undo"
18:22:12 <ais523_> this seems slightly more promising, in that it shows no signs of having got stuck yet
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18:29:32 <ais523_> "System Restore failed while restoring the registry from the restore point. An unspecified error occurred during System Restore. (0x80070002)
18:41:07 <ais523_> ended up making Windows unbootable trying to get a working Visual Studio
18:41:23 <ais523_> my guess is a corrupted registry
18:41:29 <ais523_> although it's only a very wild guess
18:46:11 <ais523_> I was ambivalent towards the registry but now I am close to certain that it's a bad idea
18:48:08 <ais523_> what is the minimum number of files in /etc for which a standard Linux distribution (Ubuntu, etc.) can boot with full functionality?
18:49:42 <ais523_> a typical user would assume that it was merely an uncustomized / weirdly-configured system, rather than a cut-down system
18:51:55 <ais523_> Start-up Repair couldn't repair your PC
18:52:11 <ais523_> Press "Advanced options" to try other options to repair your PC, or "Shut down" to turn off your PC.
18:52:24 <ais523_> Log file: C:\Windows\System32\Logfiles\Srt\SrtTrail.txt
18:52:33 <ais523_> yay, I now have a log file that might give a clue about what the problem is
18:54:03 <ais523_> "Root cause found: Unspecified changes to system configuration might have caused the problem."
18:54:43 <ais523_> and it tried to fix it via "", "System Restore", and "System files integrity check and repair", which failed with error codes 0x32, 0x1f, and 0x490 respectively.
18:56:58 <ais523_> I guess a backup/reinstall may be a worthwhile thing to try
18:59:08 <b_jonas> ais523_: I wanted to ask something
18:59:27 <ais523_> no backup/reinstall for me now, anyway, because I don't have backup media handy
18:59:55 <b_jonas> I borrowed a book on formal languages but it's not on the topic I need
19:00:31 <b_jonas> I need a book that tells more about parsers for context-free languages, like LR parsers and modified variants of it
19:00:49 <b_jonas> Someone on this channel had recommended Alfred V. Aho,
19:00:58 <b_jonas> Jeffrey D. Ullman., "The theory of parsing, translation, and compiling"
19:01:18 <b_jonas> which I haven't borrowed yet because it's summer and libraries are mostly closed, but I will probablytry
19:01:32 <b_jonas> but you might be able to recommend something too
19:03:43 <ais523_> b_jonas: I learned it from a book by Bornat called something like "understanding and writing compilers", but I can't remember the exact name
19:03:50 <ais523_> it was quite a good book, if very old
19:04:42 <b_jonas> (for the record, other possible books suggested were Alfred Vaino Aho et al, "Compilers, principles, techniques, and tools"; and Charles N. Fisher, Richard J. LeBlanc, Jr., "Crafting a compiler with C")
19:05:07 <b_jonas> ais523_: Bornat... let me search that
19:05:25 <int-e> http://www.eis.mdx.ac.uk/staffpages/r_bornat/ has a pdf
19:06:09 <ais523_> int-e: claims to, but it appears to be a broken link
19:06:34 <ais523_> it's a section link to a section that's so near the bottom of the page that no scroll is involved
19:07:19 <b_jonas> ais523_: seems to work for me
19:07:32 <ais523_> although the paper version was better formatted than the PDF, I doubt b_jonas will care about that that much
19:08:21 <b_jonas> ais523_: I do care about the formatting, but I'll still look at the pdf first to tell if this is the book I need, and will likely read it if the paper book is not available
19:17:05 <b_jonas> I thought for a minute the book was available in a library, but no, it's a completely different maths book by the same author
19:22:16 <b_jonas> I'll try to read some of this pdf later when I'm less tired. It seems terse but useful.
19:22:22 <b_jonas> ais523_ and int-e: thanks for the hint
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19:58:33 <vifino> isnt there a bot that allows shell execution?
19:59:32 <Bike> oh, it's not here.
19:59:50 <vifino> I wonder how that worked
20:00:28 <Bike> user-mode linux.
20:01:24 <ais523_> that comment is more fun if you interpret it as referring to unified modelling language
20:02:25 <Bike> how about: the communist party of nepal
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20:08:12 <fizzie> Again with the not rejoining automatically.
20:09:38 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
20:14:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: sauce: not found
20:14:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: source: not found
20:17:45 <fizzie> See https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot
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20:45:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40225&oldid=40162 * GermanyBoy * (-2) /* (categories) */ unimplemented ➡ implemented
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21:12:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Nucular * uploaded "[[File:Nyan.png]]"
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21:16:52 <elliott> are pop tarts in the public domain
21:19:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BytePusher]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40227&oldid=39219 * Nucular * (+313) New program: Nyan Cat
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22:13:32 <lambdabot> Deewiant said 15h 39m 13s ago: Possibly, I don't remember; fizzie would know. (But then, as you said, it was never finished, so the floppies still live.)
22:13:32 <lambdabot> fizzie said 15h 16m 47s ago: NO (but see logs for details)
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22:17:49 <HackEgo> imp9: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:18:53 <imp9> ok i apparently entered the wrong room
22:18:59 <imp9> im a newbie to the max
22:19:05 -!- not^v has changed nick to ^4.
22:19:19 <imp9> but while I'm here may I bother some of you guys with some pretty asinine questions regarding programming
22:19:47 <oerjan> oh _that_ you're in the right channel for. well if the questions are crazy enough.
22:20:04 <elliott> you are unusual in that you have decided to shift gears to programming rather than leaving, though :P
22:20:23 <imp9> well i am a computer technician by education but my education is prepostrous and lately i've realized how much lacking I am in IT department
22:20:25 <oerjan> well he didn't say which channel he _meant_ to join
22:20:35 <elliott> "oh, sorry, this isn't ##php"
22:20:46 <imp9> years of switching from IT to graphic design brought me to a place where I don't know what github even is
22:20:58 <imp9> can I fire couple questions, please?
22:21:04 <oerjan> it's a hub for gits, of course
22:21:19 <imp9> seriously fellas
22:21:32 <imp9> i'll start with the asinine question #1
22:22:10 <elliott> sure. let's hope that the non-fellas in the channel aren't the ones who have the answers you sek
22:22:40 <imp9> I don't know any programming, apart from some basic level CSS...if you can call that "programming".....so I need to start from the ground up. my question is - how the hell people know how to program
22:22:47 <imp9> how do they know how to talk to computer
22:23:08 <imp9> for example Quake is my favorite game (peep my nick) and I've saw a Carmack documentary yesterday
22:23:20 <imp9> how the fuck does Carmack know how to WRITE a damn engine from scratch?
22:23:36 <imp9> how do you write...a game engine from notepad.txt (figuratively speaking)
22:23:43 <int-e> by having done it multiple times before, in his case
22:23:43 <imp9> I can't wrap my mind aroudn that.
22:24:14 <int-e> few people can. it's too big, start smaller. much smaller.
22:24:15 <elliott> by writing a bunch of calls to the operating system's graphics APIs and a bunch of math for the 3D computations.
22:24:39 <imp9> does that imply that Carmack in this example is a mathematical genius?
22:25:18 <imp9> does he "see" the code that he writes, for example if someone writes HTML and CSS without even checking the browser?
22:25:53 <ais523_> if an experienced programmer tries to write code without checking it at all on a computer, they'll make a bunch of mistakes, ranging from stupid to subtle
22:26:00 <ais523_> but the code will normally be approximately right
22:26:09 <imp9> ok but let me go one step back
22:26:29 <Bike> carmack is pretty good at math. he mostly talks about haskell and oculus rift nowadays.
22:26:37 <elliott> no, he tests it a lot and writes it incrementally
22:26:40 <elliott> you don't write a game engine all in one go.
22:26:46 <imp9> who made the language? if carmack for exampel used command "bind X bind Y" (im rambling obviously) - how does my computer KNOW what that means? how does it interpret that?
22:26:49 <elliott> you write little parts of a game engine until thy work and then wire them all together.
22:27:04 <elliott> because there's another program that tells the computer what it means.
22:27:05 <int-e> Best I can describe is that as you learn programming, you assemble larger and larger building blocks (while also remembering how to make those from smaller parts - that's what you have to do when programming from the ground up). No programmer will get anything done by thinking about individual statements in isolation.
22:27:15 <ais523_> imp9: programming languages are written in terms of other languages, going back through history; eventually you reach machine code, which the processor is designed to understand when it's made
22:27:21 <elliott> either by turning it into the computer's native machine code, or by being a program that interprets it as it goes.
22:27:27 <int-e> However, I believe every programmer has started on that level.
22:27:40 <imp9> this is some heavy philosophical shit fellas, i'm excited reading this you don't even know it
22:27:46 <ais523_> but basically, programming is about writing complex things in terms of simpler things
22:27:52 <int-e> imp9: don't overdo it
22:27:55 <imp9> so Quake existed when the first computer was made
22:28:03 <imp9> but nobody knew the "code" how to make it
22:28:09 <imp9> ok sorry i got ahead of myself :D
22:28:16 <ais523_> Quake couldn't have been written on the first computer, but only because it wasn't powerful enough to run it
22:28:17 <Bike> yeah well fuck plato.
22:28:33 <imp9> ais but hypothetically if it were powerful enough
22:28:34 <ais523_> if you took the first computer ever and scaled it up and made it faster, you could write Quake on that
22:28:38 <Bike> it's just a concrete version of how knowledge works elsewhere. i could talk to you about dendritic spines for hours but it wouldn't mean shit to you without some basic neuro knowhow.
22:28:40 <int-e> not my philosophy. software is created, not discovered.
22:28:59 <elliott> if quake did not exist, it would be necessary to invent it -- neechy, 1684
22:28:59 <ais523_> but probably nobody would have thought of it at the time
22:29:00 <imp9> ok lets go further a bit
22:29:06 <imp9> when people say "Carmack wrote"
22:29:17 <imp9> do they mean it in the same when as "Jobs made Apple"
22:29:21 <imp9> do they generalize
22:29:28 <imp9> or did Carmack did it himself
22:29:32 <imp9> literally alone
22:29:32 <elliott> you can write a 3D engine by yourself.
22:29:41 <elliott> I don't know whether he did it entirely himself or not.
22:29:44 <ais523_> I don't think Carmack did all of Quake alone, but it's certainly possible for one person to do most of that
22:29:53 <ais523_> my guess is he did most of it but someone else did the graphics
22:30:00 <Bike> it would be pretty impressive to write a book on your own too, but not impossible
22:30:03 <ais523_> it's rare to get someone who's good both at programmign and at 3D modelling
22:30:21 <int-e> Michael Abrash was involved in the engine part of Quake. He wrote a book about it.
22:30:33 <imp9> the whole id era fascinates me
22:30:43 <imp9> i tend to romanticize that era of computing
22:30:48 <ais523_> programming doesn't scale so well, two people will not work twice as fast as one person
22:30:54 <imp9> being born in 84 thats pretty obvious
22:31:18 <ais523_> although 100 people will collectively work much faster than 1 person if the task is easy to split up and well defined and they aren't brought onto the project at the last minute
22:31:41 <int-e> ais523_: ah, but this is not purely about productivity, it's about having the right ideas.
22:31:57 <ais523_> although, historically idea people tend to overestimate how important they are
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22:32:02 <ais523_> ideas are important though
22:32:41 <imp9> so just to make sure I'm getting it right
22:32:48 <imp9> every movement on the screen in Quake, or any videogame
22:32:53 <imp9> every single move
22:33:01 <imp9> with layered graphics
22:33:03 <elliott> you don't have to press enter every few words.
22:33:16 <ais523_> like, you don't write separate code for moving left and for moving right
22:33:40 <ais523_> you write code for moving horizontally, which will be the same for left and right just with the signs flipped (i.e. you use positive for left, negative for right, or the other way round)
22:33:47 <imp9> slapped on top of the polygons that were made "alive" by programming? or am I misinterpreting something?
22:33:57 <ais523_> then code for moving forward and backward will be slightly more different, but still quite similar
22:33:58 <elliott> I don't know, but you're not making much sense.
22:34:05 <int-e> ais523_: Of course they both implemented their own ideas, too.
22:34:06 <elliott> I don't think the philosophising is helping you here :p
22:34:18 <imp9> how can I make sense I don't know what code is :D
22:34:34 <imp9> all the code I ever wrote aside the css shit, was in elementary
22:34:45 <imp9> we had Logo 4.0 in computer class and I drew with the turtle
22:34:50 <int-e> > let code = fix ((0:) . scanl (+) 1) in code
22:34:52 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
22:35:07 <elliott> logo is a pretty sophisticated programming language underneath
22:35:21 <ais523_> elliott: yes but most of the intro classes don't bother with the actual programming part of it :-(
22:35:58 <elliott> ais523_: I used logo as an excuse to do actual programming, once. just wrote straight up recursive numeric code in it with not a single draw call. didn't bother saying I knew how to program, just showed it off
22:36:04 <ais523_> over here, they start new programmers on a turtle graphics library which doesn't have complex lisp stuff underneath
22:36:16 <ais523_> just repeat-n-times loops and nonrecursive functions
22:36:28 <ais523_> which is still enough power to make the point, but really really weak
22:36:29 <int-e> right. a sequence of move/draw/turn instructions isn't really programming. but you can easily use loops, recursion, etc.
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22:36:41 <imp9> ais what? you serious? they really start programming teachings with logo in 2014?
22:37:16 <int-e> it gives immediate satisfaction (pictures), and it's an ok language
22:37:53 <elliott> logo is one of the best languages I can think of to start with
22:37:56 <int-e> and in the end, the programming language itself is not important, it's the concepts beneath. statements, loops, functions.
22:37:59 <imp9> I always thought that C++ was the only language "real programmers" use
22:38:07 <Bike> nah that's dumb
22:38:15 <elliott> that's not true and besides beginning programmers don't need to be saddled with real-world practical bullshit
22:38:19 <Bike> real programmers use snobol exclusively
22:39:04 <int-e> C++ isn't even that popular anymore. Not that C# or Java are so much nicer ... (and let's forget about PHP)
22:39:21 <imp9> ok but I must retract guys, you are obviously well versed in this while I'm obviously not. who made the machine code, the bare essence? does anyone have the example how does that language look like?
22:39:48 <elliott> it looks like a bunch of bytes.
22:39:53 <imp9> I'm probably missing the entire concept because I was born and raised on GUI and WYSIWYG so that's how my brain works...I did use DOS, but for games only so that doesn't count.
22:40:09 <elliott> you write assembly which has a bunch of text mnemonics for the basic instructions and they get turned into the raw encoded instruction bytes.
22:40:12 <Sgeo> The machine code is a bunch of high and low voltages (or is it high and low something else?) It's interpreted by the CPU, via ... I guess transistors encoded by doping silicon in certain ways
22:40:14 <int-e> elliott: a sure recipe for indygestion
22:40:21 <elliott> it runs because the people at intel made hardware which reads those bytes and then acts accordingly.
22:40:37 <imp9> but I can't help faux philosophize when I read that
22:40:51 <imp9> so that means that there are so many gems of software in my computer here
22:40:56 <imp9> only I can't decode them LOL
22:41:06 <imp9> I can't make them work, but someone will, at some point.
22:41:18 <elliott> I have no idea what you mean by that, but it seems to please you, so yes.
22:41:28 <imp9> oh cmon man, I'm not that unreasonable.
22:41:38 <elliott> I'm sure! I just don't know what you mean.
22:41:50 <int-e> imp9: I think the appropriate term is "incoherent"
22:41:57 <Bike> encoded transistors, huh
22:42:08 <imp9> think of piano. that's just keys. I can walk to a piano and hideous noise will come out if I try to play it. but someone, with the right knowledge, will make beautiful melody. and it's the same exact piano.
22:42:12 <Bike> little does sgeo realize that i play #esoteric on my reverseable crabputer
22:42:43 <Sgeo> I don't know enough about reversible computation to understand how that would falsify what I said
22:42:45 <elliott> if the CPU is the piano here and the beautiful melody is a program that actually works, then sure, I guess.
22:42:46 <imp9> that's what I mean, the keys on the piano are just sitting there
22:43:04 <int-e> I have an ascii art of a llizard (don't ask) sitting at a piano, asking "So... which button do I press to get this thing going?"
22:43:11 -!- ZuuGates has changed nick to ZuuTorvalds.
22:43:24 <elliott> the keys are all yours, imp9. welcome to your new home
22:43:31 <Bike> Sgeo: there are no transistors in my crabputer
22:43:36 <Bike> because it is made out of crabs
22:43:37 <elliott> btw, do you know a guy called itidus20?
22:43:51 <imp9> I insstalled xchat 2 days ago
22:43:57 <int-e> programming is easier than playing the piano. you can take all the time you want.
22:43:58 <imp9> not exactly well acquianted on IRC
22:44:08 <Bike> i don't think you could do reverseable computing with transistors though
22:44:17 <elliott> int-e: not a fan of john cage, I take it
22:44:18 <Bike> kind of don't want to remember CMOS enough to be sure
22:44:21 <Sgeo> int-e: programming may be more like composing music for a pinao
22:44:39 <Sgeo> You can take all the time you want with that too. Playing would be more like... manual interpretation?
22:44:49 <imp9> i guess that analogy is good too, yea
22:44:54 <int-e> elliott: even with 4'37" the timing is of utmost importance
22:45:15 <int-e> I should've googles
22:45:17 <elliott> Bike: the extended mix is so much better.
22:45:27 <imp9> I'm asking you these questions because I fell into career crisis lately and when I see what am I missing and how many things I don't know about, it makes my head hurt
22:45:28 <Sgeo> imp9: but with computers, you would get the piano to play the sheet music by itself. Or get the piano to turn the sheet music into a different kind of sheet music that the piano could play by itself.
22:45:42 <Bike> elliott: i prefer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6ZRKfZ-eHk
22:45:45 <elliott> int-e: see, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_Slow_as_Possible
22:46:08 <int-e> Sgeo: Damn, now I'm imagining the cacophony of playing the source code of, say, Firefox ;-)
22:46:11 <oerjan> imp9: some of the people involved in inventing the basic ideas used for computing were geniuses by all measures. like von neumann who got the idea of putting the program of a computer in the same memory as its data. that would have been one of the first machine codes.
22:46:43 <elliott> Bike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkp376ZcToc
22:46:59 <Bike> god what the fuck is nightcore
22:47:03 <Bike> is it something to do with anime
22:47:13 <imp9> these damn computers man....I mean I'm desensitized by em, everyone is, people are just using them like owens, and they're the greatest damn tools ever made on earth
22:47:14 <elliott> it's exactly like regular core but at night
22:47:35 <imp9> good god my father played with clay cowboys and indians and here we are now 50 years later...
22:47:55 <elliott> computers very existed in 1964
22:48:01 <Sgeo> Bike: sped up and modified music. Often associated with anime-ish women because who knows
22:48:05 <imp9> figuratively 50 years ago :)
22:48:23 <int-e> Google... "Nightcore is the glorified term to describe the style of speeding up Eurodance, Hands Up and Trance, emerged in the mid 2000s[12] on YouTube. It is characterized by a tempo of between 160 and 180 beats per minute[13] with high-pitched vocal. It is originated by the Norwegian DJ duo of the same name back in 2002"
22:48:29 <int-e> err, thanks, but no thanks.
22:48:39 <Bike> feeling the glorty here
22:49:01 <int-e> (source: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/subcultures/nightcore )
22:49:14 <Bike> night of the long cores
22:49:30 <imp9> lol @ nightcore, dear lord who listen to this at home haha
22:49:43 <elliott> "she's only, like, 46% anime"
22:49:58 <imp9> this is music for people who see 256 colors
22:51:24 <imp9> so can someone learn to program without formal education?
22:51:30 <oerjan> <imp9> [...] when I see what am I missing and how many things I don't know about, it makes my head hurt <-- that applies to everyone, no matter what they are doing. no exceptions.
22:51:36 <elliott> I self-taught programming starting at 8.
22:51:55 <elliott> (I also quit formal education in general not too long after that.)
22:52:07 <imp9> I'm old as hell I feel I could never catch up
22:52:24 <imp9> bout to turn 30 soon
22:52:31 <elliott> that's not old. oerjan is way older than you.
22:52:42 <elliott> even fizzie is older than you, I think. (did he ever turn 30?)
22:53:00 <imp9> still I need to catch up....my skills now have no intrinsic value
22:53:08 <elliott> if you were in your 40s or 50s then the programming job market might be less friendly to you, sure.
22:53:30 <imp9> fuck graphic design, it's replacable, unless you're Jon Ive level deeply embedded in a corporation like Apple, you're just a material
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22:54:06 <oerjan> we've had a guy here who was even older than me. that cobol guy, btiggins or whatever.
22:54:09 <elliott> most programmers are fungible, too.
22:54:15 <int-e> I'm not sure that programming is any different.
22:54:19 <imp9> nobody values my work and I'm sick of having presenting it to clients who tell me "oh let me get back when my wife says what she thinks about it"
22:54:34 <imp9> when you deploy a program, nobody's wife will make suggestions
22:54:43 <imp9> "can you please clean up that last part of code, that would be sweet"
22:54:55 <elliott> you're telling programmers you know more about what programming is like than them...?
22:55:04 <imp9> no no ... sorry not trying to be like that
22:55:18 <elliott> an lot of professional programming is just collaborative doing what you're told. like most professional things
22:56:05 <int-e> it won't be about colors, but you will get bug reports, feature requests, complaints that your software is stupid and claims that 6 year olds write better code than you do.
22:56:11 <imp9> ok not trying to argue that...but if you go freelance as a programmer...I think you are way more valued than someone like me who does graphics
22:56:33 <imp9> because everyone and their momma thinks they know graphics, or photography, or any other similar prostituted artform of the new millenium
22:56:50 <elliott> if you're a contractor, then you're still doing what people tell you to do.
22:57:02 <Sgeo> "Why isn't this working?" "That's what you told us it should do" <--paraphrase of conversations that have occured way too often
22:57:10 <elliott> if you want to program something off the top of your head and get rich off it, well, you can make an iPhone game and get lucky or something.
22:57:27 <imp9> I'm honestly not thinking about money
22:57:29 <elliott> programming is more invisible than graphic design anyway.
22:57:33 <imp9> just my values, my skillset
22:57:42 <imp9> yes thats true but programming is everything
22:57:47 <elliott> everonye can see that a graphic designer makes pretty things with their skill
22:57:48 <Sgeo> elliott: not when there are highly visible bugs, it's not invisible
22:58:12 <elliott> it's not invisible when software just works either, but people don't think about the programming that goes into things usually.
22:58:36 <imp9> that's why programmers can have better rates, i think that's obvious
22:58:47 <imp9> you can find graphic designer right now if you look outside your window
22:59:35 <Bike> outside my window is trees and dead rabbits
23:00:03 <imp9> if those rabbits were alive man... :D
23:00:11 <int-e> imp9: you might find http://worrydream.com/MagicInk/ interesting
23:00:41 <imp9> looks like a behemoth article, what's the scoop, what's it about?
23:00:52 <Bike> it starts with an abstract
23:01:48 <int-e> well, to me as a programmer, it's about how programmers produce bad user interfaces because they are not thinking about information like normal people.
23:02:20 <int-e> and how graphic designers ought to help them out.
23:02:30 <imp9> well it is all about collaborations, synthesis and all that...Jobs and Woz, Gates and Allen, Carmack and Romero etc :D
23:02:53 <imp9> none of those fellas would be anything if they went DIY route
23:02:59 <imp9> they would probably all be bums
23:03:24 <elliott> you really are like itidus.
23:03:52 <imp9> who's that man and why am I being occused of being him?
23:04:03 <elliott> I didn't say you are him. just you're alike.
23:04:13 <Bike> have you ever considered exhibiting a matrix of solidity
23:04:14 <imp9> run a check on me, I'm a douche from croatia europe wandering about things I know nothing about haha
23:04:32 <elliott> anyway attributing programs, or things in general, to the work of single geniuses is generally not a great way at looking at entire subjects, or history in general.
23:04:33 <Bike> a matrix of solidity
23:05:14 <imp9> I don't know what you mean bike, and I've googled that term with no direct results so... *kanye shrug*
23:05:25 <boily> ~duck matrix of solidity
23:05:35 <imp9> elliot I just watched Pirates of Silicon Valley few days ago - and I can only agree
23:05:41 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Man_theory and so on.
23:05:55 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Movieposterposv.jpg oh jesus.
23:06:13 <imp9> is this "winners write the history books" type of theory?
23:06:21 <imp9> that's an obvious one, ain't it
23:06:40 <Bike> it's "history is driven by a bunch of single dudes and i do mean dudes who are magically awesome"
23:06:53 <elliott> no, it's talking about jobs and woz and gates and allen and garmack and romero like they're the only people on earth involved in making the things they're famous for
23:07:23 <imp9> well it is about everyone at ID, if we're talkin about Quake
23:07:36 <elliott> are we? I can't even tell any more.
23:07:38 <imp9> but it cannot be denied that, in this case, Carmack pulled the most weight
23:07:46 <imp9> he was the Michael Jordan of ID
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23:08:02 <elliott> that is not a comparison I would have thought of myself.
23:08:09 <Bike> iD was known early on for a Super Mario clone.
23:08:24 <int-e> he did certainly not look for a new perspective on life on IRC ;-)
23:08:32 <Bike> it involved some pretty clever programming, and also was a super mario clone
23:08:55 <imp9> well everything is a copy of something, if that's what you mean
23:09:01 <elliott> int-e: doesn't that just make imp9 the mike tyson of using a computer?
23:09:12 <Bike> i don't think you understand https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj4HJkeQSg0
23:09:22 <int-e> elliott: what? he hasn't bitten off any ears yet, I think
23:09:49 <imp9> didn't know they were sued
23:09:56 <elliott> Bike: the ? blocks doing nothing is so beautifully sad
23:10:08 <Bike> they weren't sued, that's just what they called it
23:10:54 <Bike> i like to think of myself as the hypatia of using computers
23:11:09 <imp9> pretty much like the whole PARC thing with jobs and gates, right?
23:11:32 <imp9> when Jobs snatched gui from parc
23:11:50 <elliott> I like to think of myself as the gandhi of sleeping.
23:11:51 <imp9> nobody remembers them anymore (parc guys)
23:11:54 <Bike> i just meant these people steal all kindsa shit and generally can't do shit by themselves
23:12:19 <imp9> that's how it goes I guess...
23:12:50 <imp9> Parc guys had the chance to make their project go live when they pitched it to Xerox HQ in NY...but they probably lacked Jobs' reality distortion skills or something
23:13:21 <Bike> see that's the kind of thing i mean. reality distortion skills? he's a human being
23:13:39 <elliott> tbf, jobs was very charismatic (and brutal)
23:13:50 <elliott> not exactly a role model though
23:13:52 <imp9> jobs, in my opinion, was nuts
23:14:00 <imp9> I think he had sociopathic tendencies
23:14:25 <elliott> he always seemed like a pretty awful person to work for.
23:14:28 <elliott> made a lot of money though
23:14:29 <imp9> by the way the Jobs movie was awful
23:14:35 <int-e> he and pretty much everybody else in upper management.
23:15:19 <imp9> but I have to admit until I saw Pirates movie, I never realized how damn exciting and dare I say - epic - those 80s were in computer era...really fascinating decade
23:15:42 <Bike> unless that movie was in rhyming couplets you are forbidden from calling it epic
23:16:04 <imp9> I knew I didnt have to use that word
23:16:37 <imp9> i did it for the lulz
23:18:03 <elliott> look at all the lulz we're having together
23:18:14 <imp9> we avin a laff mate :)
23:18:20 <Bike> okay i already compared myself to someone with my skin removed
23:18:21 <fungot> int-e: we let him do that because evolving the browser environment above a certain level of support is required to understand the " functions"
23:18:43 <int-e> oh, right on topic. fungot is marvellous sometimes.
23:18:43 <fungot> int-e: so inherently it's bad. what's worse is it was the number of functions in
23:18:50 <Bike> anyway if you're that interested you might like reading some biographical material, like Coders at Work. something less apotheosistic than anything relating to jobs
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23:19:18 <Bike> you'll find that a lot of Important Programmers got into it because they flunked a math class or weren't very good at jazz or whatever
23:19:29 <Bike> is apotheosistic a word, oh well
23:19:53 <imp9> haha i was just googling that word, apparently it isnt :D
23:19:56 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halcyon_Days_%28book%29 hey, this one's free
23:20:18 <imp9> introduction by romero oh my
23:20:19 <boily> Bike: it is. I don't know what it means, but it is a fine word nonetheless. I like words.
23:20:54 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Apotheosis_of_George_Washington.jpg this is apotheosis
23:21:09 <imp9> are there any essential documentary on these subjects?
23:21:12 <elliott> romero is just a guy, y'know. he has hair and a wife. he showers regularly and eats food every day. probably.
23:21:36 <Bike> romero has a lot of hair, in fact
23:21:43 <elliott> I've read romero's hair care tips
23:21:45 <imp9> he's not just a guy, he made a mark on the entertainment industry, not exactly what everyone can claim :)
23:22:03 <imp9> lol he does have a majestic hair, almost unfair amount of follicular majesty
23:22:11 <elliott> yes, he did things. he's still just a guy. making idols of people doesn't really get anyone anywhere
23:22:35 <Bike> seriously though, coders at work is good, even though the publisher is kind of noticeably shitty. it even has interviews with... women
23:22:39 <elliott> pretty sure my hair is longer than romero's. life achievements
23:23:44 <imp9> there's a doom documentary on the tube...why doesn't quake get the love...the best damn video game of all time
23:24:21 <quintopia> boily: did you accept the trade offer?
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23:26:12 <int-e> good move, now I can sleep. :P
23:26:16 <boily> quintopia: I didn't, I had to make supper and eat. I know, I'm selfish...
23:26:31 <quintopia> boily: sign back on so you can get a portal 2
23:26:51 <boily> in about half an hour. food is being included in me.
23:27:26 <quintopia> but it could be has happenedening while it eats
23:27:41 <Bike> i have this weird urge to act as a marathon fanboy...
23:28:05 <boily> I'm not a knight of ni.
23:28:15 <elliott> `addquote <quintopia> i thought you'd choke on "it"
23:29:18 <quintopia> i wouldn't mind if you did add it though. but you probably would.
23:29:45 <int-e> elliott: you had an extra space though
23:29:58 <boily> elliott is a grumpy dadaist.
23:30:24 <quintopia> elliott: i lol'd a bit. but it wouldn't be funny out of this context, i agree.
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00:26:42 <Melvar> Anyone for some ridiculous feature abuse?
00:27:23 <newsham> anyone NOT for some ridiculous feature abuse!?@
00:27:31 <Melvar> ( let foo = "bar" in getNamedVar "foo"
00:27:54 <Bike> that's very... perl? weird
00:28:59 <Melvar> It uses a reflected tactic to look for the right thing in the environment. Only statically-known variable name strings will work.
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00:29:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Lambda: the Gathering]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40228&oldid=40224 * Oerjan * (+50) unsigned
00:31:04 <Melvar> Took me a day to get it working, too.
00:33:40 <Melvar> But it doesn’t actually break anything, all it does in the end is have the compiler fill in the actual variable in question.
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01:20:29 <oerjan> <oerjan> (my _last_ answer was of course something trivial which just popped up and i couldn't resist because it would put me over 2000) <-- of _course_ this had to ironically end up as my most upvoted SO answer so far...
01:22:40 <oerjan> the newtype Maybe a one
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01:24:13 <oerjan> is that the one you thought was so unclear i shouldn't have answered it?
01:24:48 <shachaf> i never said you shouldn't have answered it
01:25:07 <oerjan> good, good *puts swatter back down*
01:25:23 <shachaf> can you get a balloon to swat me with?
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01:42:54 <oerjan> there's a Gregor in the house. i believe he has a message.
02:33:23 <newsham> blah, think soon i'll have to update my ubuntu LTS
02:34:04 <oerjan> i didn't know mormon were linux based
02:34:22 <oerjan> puns are so bad when you misread a letter
02:37:00 <oerjan> i didn't know minecraft had saints either
02:39:30 <elliott> where did minecraft come from?
02:43:56 <newsham> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws70oI3yMBc
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03:40:00 <Sgeo> So, DotA vs League of Legends is reminding me a bit of NetHack vs some other roguelikes (Crawl and Brogue), in that the former supposedly tends to require more knowledge not immediately present in the UI for effective play
03:41:05 <Bike> so you're saying in dota you can determine the nature of a ring by dropping it down a sink.
03:41:35 <shachaf> Bike: is that a primitive form of caller id
03:41:45 <Bike> if that's a pun i'm not getting it
03:42:08 <Bike> anyway, anyone here play dorfs? i am, swear to god, having trouble understanding how to navigate the help menu
03:42:15 <shachaf> "nature of a ring" [heh heh heh]
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04:15:14 <Sgeo> Bike: I like reading about dorfs
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07:00:17 <Sgeo> It's not possible to have a NUL-terminated UTF-32 string, is it?
07:00:44 <Sgeo> Well, I guess codepoint 0 could terminate. Just NULL-terminated wouldn't work
07:24:16 <fizzie> You could terminate a big-endian UTF-32 string with a single byte, if you liked.
07:24:52 <fizzie> Not a 0, but e.g. ff, since the code points only go up to 0x0010ffff.
07:24:57 <fizzie> It'd be kind of hacky, though.
07:26:14 <b_jonas> Sgeo: yes, codepoint 0 as terminator would be natural
07:26:30 <b_jonas> but it's usually better to use an explicit length (or end pointer)
07:26:42 <b_jonas> it comes with fewer bugs and usually easier code these days
07:27:08 <Sgeo> Wha sort of data structures do word processors use? What about many years ago (e.g. what did Word 1.0 use)?
07:35:46 <fizzie> Ropes are not uncommon in editors, or so I've heard.
07:36:15 <fizzie> I have also gotten the vague impression that whatever's under the hood in LibreOffice is something quite paragraph-oriented.
07:53:34 <shachaf> fizzie: for a good time terminate it with a single byte and put that byte right at the end of a page
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08:42:53 <fizzie> "Why do you have three bytes of padding at the start of your memory block?" "So that I could put the terminating byte right at the end of a page."
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11:06:49 * impomatic_ is tempted to mine CthulhuCoins https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=294383.0
11:08:28 <HackEgo> catcombcoin selfcoin peracoin alboxybeatnikcoin mcnecoin dislacoin negrcoin ctcoin musivecoin braincoin ztendidncoin perfectorcoin d1ffcoin poetercecoin beuvecoin inspooncoin befortlecoin kmancoin 1932coin ortecoin
11:08:37 <boily> ah, the command still exists!
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11:27:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: analog: not found
11:28:01 <HackEgo> part is to thia as squef is to hamplique
11:28:05 <mroman> only took me about half an hour to get it working :D
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12:40:08 <Taneb> I would like some advice!
12:40:43 <Taneb> If a function doesn't pass the fairbairn threshold but the implementation is not obvious, what should I do
12:41:21 <Taneb> Hang on, I'm only using this function once
12:42:12 <Taneb> I guess that's pretty firmly on the "remove" side of things
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14:11:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:TieSoul]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40229&oldid=40163 * TieSoul * (+358) List of languages I've implemented
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14:35:31 <fizzie> Hello from the As-sembly.
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15:01:44 <HackEgo> eight is to upgn as vam is to edney
15:01:57 <mroman> Who made that dictionary?
15:03:05 <fizzie> The Hoover did `words.
15:03:48 <fizzie> That's statistical models for you.
15:04:03 <fizzie> I think it's trigrams.
15:04:46 <fizzie> 'pgn' sounds slightly unlikely, but sometimes the source dicts have abbrevs too.
15:05:42 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
15:06:01 <oerjan> from google, "fairbairn threshold" seems like a haskell/agda community thing
15:06:29 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
15:06:36 <oerjan> um that was in response to Taneb in the logs
15:08:12 <Taneb> oerjan, it's "if a name of a function is about as long as its definition, ask yourself is it really worth having a name?" roughly
15:08:32 <oerjan> i did get the gist of the definition
15:08:42 <oerjan> it just didn't seem like a very widespread term
15:08:59 <Taneb> edwardk, where does the Fairbain threshold come from?
15:09:03 <Taneb> Who was Fairbairn?
15:09:09 <edwardk> it was an early discussion on the libraries mailing list
15:09:16 <edwardk> about naming a simple composition
15:09:29 <edwardk> and he pointed out that it was better to have smaller combinators that folks could put together
15:09:35 <edwardk> than to name all the pairs of combinators
15:09:40 <oerjan> so then, does "fairbairn threshold" cross the fairbairn threshold?
15:09:51 <edwardk> because the latter is a less compositional vocabulary and it drives users to look up the solution in the dictionary
15:10:00 <edwardk> causing you to grow the dictionary further
15:10:38 <edwardk> on the other hand if you have simple compositional higher order functions then you get units of highly reusable functionality and don't cram the namespace full of trivial compositions
15:11:10 <edwardk> anywyas jon fairbairn has been around in the haskell community a long time, maybe 15 years or so, but he's kinda idle these days
15:11:44 <oerjan> so he's responsible for killing equating, basically.
15:11:50 <edwardk> i use his threshold as a sort of litmus test to prevent core library explosion
15:12:05 <edwardk> well, i rather think of it as he's responsible for driving the creation of on
15:12:21 <Taneb> I may have been misusing the threshold slightly
15:12:31 <edwardk> i'm personally okay with the addition of equating if only because it crosses another threshold
15:12:43 <edwardk> the point at which telling people no is taking more time than just adding the fucking thing
15:12:56 <edwardk> i've been calling that the co-"Fairbairn" threshold ;)
15:13:17 <edwardk> if the whole point of the former was to save people time, then there is a point at which we're in net productivity loss the other way too ;)
15:14:09 <edwardk> i tend to re-evaluate my stance on something when it gets reinvented over and over every few months by different people
15:14:26 <edwardk> because obviously there is something there -- a need we arent satisfying
15:14:37 <edwardk> we're not at a local optimum, something wants to pull us along a gradient
15:15:57 <Melvar> Where did “co-” come from in the first place?
15:16:16 <elliott> lens does not obey the afirbairn threshold :)
15:16:33 <oerjan> i was going to mention lens
15:16:55 <elliott> to be fair, it does mostly obey it, it's just that it has to macro-expand the definition of the compositional language that is its operators.
15:17:02 <edwardk> lens is all about building a compositional vocabulary -- it just chose a bigger grain size
15:17:20 <edwardk> and morphology has structure to it
15:17:24 <Taneb> elliott, most of the operators are my fault
15:17:28 <edwardk> in a way that most of these one off things don't
15:17:41 <edwardk> yeah i blame taneb for everything
15:17:46 <Taneb> Because I wanted <<+~ for a thing and I got slightly carried away
15:17:54 <elliott> is morphology what we're calling optics now?
15:17:55 <oerjan> well the other libraries have some of that too, like _ M A
15:18:31 <edwardk> elliott: nah, just meaning the structure inside the name of a thing. the fact that our naming conventions agglutinate like prefixes and suffixes, etc.
15:18:38 <lambdabot> MonadReader s m => Getting (First a) s a -> m (Maybe a)
15:18:42 <lambdabot> MonadReader s m => Getting (First a) s a -> m (Maybe a)
15:18:44 <elliott> see, morphology kinda works as a name for optics.
15:19:16 <edwardk> i've been spending a lot of time with lenses in a more general categorical setting
15:19:29 <edwardk> isos on natural transformations are pretty awesome
15:19:39 <edwardk> emember all the quantified lens stuff we couldn't say?
15:20:10 <edwardk> take plated, now go write something that walks a syntax tree and takes statements to statements, expressions to expressions
15:20:33 <elliott> let's not and say I did :)
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16:18:58 <mroman> wait. so words doesn't use a dictionary?
16:20:29 <quintopia> it would make sense to use a language model kind of how fungot does right?
16:20:30 <fungot> quintopia: that's nice. you mean to simply pass the arguments to the call to call/ cc isn't a time machine module that returns the list?
16:21:40 <mroman> It'd be much easier for german
16:21:45 <mroman> just give a base dictionary
16:21:56 <mroman> and then mix words together to construct compound words
16:22:02 <fizzie> It does exactly what fungot does.
16:22:02 <fungot> fizzie: that's what i used
16:22:16 <fizzie> Except in characters and not words.
16:22:22 <mroman> Flaschenhundsammelbeckenreinigungsfachmann
16:22:40 <fizzie> Also some minor other differences.
16:23:24 <mroman> bottle dog collector tub cleaning specialist
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16:47:29 <TieSoul> Dutch also does that. Autobandenwieldopjesverzamelaarsbeurskaartjes is car tyre valve collectors' exchange tickets.
16:53:24 <fizzie> Finnish, unsurprisingly.
16:53:56 <fizzie> Though also with inflection, up to some degree.
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17:29:42 <HackEgo> usur atlan pxcelief oling eductor prainer moniah cochoppa villa poul
17:30:04 <HackEgo> cat: words: No such file or directory
17:30:08 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl \ use strict; use warnings; \ use v5.10; \ use open qw( :encoding(UTF-8) :std); \ use File::Basename 'dirname'; \ use Storable 'retrieve'; \ use List::Util qw(sum min); \ use Getopt::Long qw(:config gnu_getopt); \ BEGIN { \ eval { \ require Math::Random::MT::Perl; Math::Random::MT::Perl->import('rand'); \ }; \ #wa
17:30:17 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/words
17:30:37 <mroman> how can you add such large files?
17:30:44 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
17:32:46 <fizzie> The `fetch has been occasionally broken.
17:33:23 <fizzie> Don't know about current state.
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17:36:56 <HackEgo> ausgesches quotenbetrieb großes vivo ungspolitätisch tantermorperan rechnungsplani öylen ficingabe frei
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17:38:08 <HackEgo> hanienspekt extaufklärung vötigesundspitz hangendestielte reierudenkorreprac capitzers portelleticschwulfarbeschutz schenkvorrieder unbedürfnisinummis dnl
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17:39:09 <fizzie> `run words --german --finnish 10 # one of its best features
17:39:11 <HackEgo> antabunktiv reuzstr geburyholh rach hefessalle sämmänä geograahekser sachtetesi terik ethalustel
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17:43:21 <Melvar> `words --german-medical 10
17:43:22 <HackEgo> bewegungen adrezifisch glycetamin hyperidenomenfall pioidtumphase resierteropium expresensitiere anspuffiziös hyperationen explageburs
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17:47:21 <HackEgo> Brazilian \ Bulgarian \ CanadianEnglishInsane \ Catalan \ Eng1M \ EngAll \ EngFiction \ EngGb \ EngUs \ Esolangs \ Finnish \ French \ Gaelic \ German \ GermanMedical \ Hebrew \ Irish \ Italian \ Manx \ Norwegian \ Ogerman \ Polish \ Portuguese \ Russian \ Spanish \ Swedish
17:50:34 <mroman> you can't just chain german nouns though
17:50:46 <mroman> there's the -s- that sometimes must be squished in
17:50:56 <mroman> although the -s- is regional
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17:58:43 <Melvar> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rinderkennzeichnungs-_und_Rindfleischetikettierungs%C3%BCberwachungsaufgaben%C3%BCbertragungsgesetz
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18:07:46 <mroman> I guess these are actually just case endings
18:07:47 <Melvar> Well, that’s strictly a plural -n.
18:08:22 <Melvar> In “Sonnenstrahl” however, the -n is historical genitive IIRC.
18:08:24 <mroman> it's the steuer of the verrechnung
18:08:41 <mroman> "Verrechnungs Steuer" really means the Steuer of the Verrechnung
18:09:22 <Melvar> No, “Verrechnung” is its own genitive form, nowadays anyway.
18:09:58 <mroman> Des Verrechnung Steuer sounds weird
18:10:32 <Melvar> “der Verrechnung” – -ung nouns are feminine.
18:11:24 <mroman> genitive for feminine nouns sounds weird
18:11:47 <quintopia> help i'm trying to find the original source of the comic graph of "physics knowledge vs. how much sense the universe makes". i'm pretty sure it's SMBC, or if not that, then xkcd, but I can't find it
18:11:54 <Melvar> Using the genitive that way is rare in the first place.
18:12:42 <mroman> I was born without a genitive :)
18:12:59 <mroman> (swiss dialects generally lack genitive)
18:13:27 <mroman> Der Koffer der Frau is a perfect sentence though
18:13:33 <Melvar> They use the dative instead, no?
18:13:46 <mroman> in swiss german you'd say "Der Koffer von der Frau"
18:14:49 <mroman> Which means you cant answer to question like "Welches Auto" with just "Papas"
18:15:00 <mroman> you have to say "dem Papa seines"
18:15:38 <mroman> or "em papi siis" to put it into real swiss german ;)
18:16:18 <mroman> german is lacking a neutral "unbestimmter Artikel" though
18:16:28 <mroman> ein/eine is all you guys have ;)
18:17:13 <mroman> and I've heard your definition of "obwohl" is broken, too.
18:17:22 <Melvar> “indefinite article” is the English term.
18:17:51 <Melvar> And what besides ein/eine/ein would we have? And what would you say “obwohl” means?
18:17:58 <mroman> "Obwohl ich zur Bank ging, war sie geschlossen."
18:18:25 <mroman> somebody said, this wouldn't imply that the speaker expects the bank to open just for him
18:18:37 <Melvar> That’s what it sounds like to me.
18:19:15 <mroman> to me it's sounds like the speaker expects the bank to open for him
18:19:24 <mroman> "Ich ging zur Bank, obwohl sie geschlossen war"
18:19:30 <mroman> is - to him - the same thing
18:19:44 <mroman> to me it implies that you knew that it was closed
18:19:48 <mroman> but you chose to go anyway
18:22:01 <Melvar> So, I don’t know about your informant, but I would consider the first example to imply that the speaker expects the bank to be open just because he went there.
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18:44:10 <mroman> that's what I told him :)
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18:57:07 <Vorpal> So... My phone randomly rebooted and then went into a boot loop (in the boot loader, didn't even get to the kernel logo). Had to remove the battery and put it back in to fix that. How strange
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19:04:35 <int-e> It seems more likely that the speaker has trouble with the subtleties of the German language.
19:05:54 <int-e> (This was my first reaction, "this sounds off, what is the intended meaning likely to be?")
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19:38:02 <TieSoul> you know what, I'm going to make a stack-based arbitrary-dimension language, because there seems to be a lack of that (with the exception of BeQunge)
19:38:19 <TieSoul> And I just really enjoy multi-dimensional languages
19:45:19 <quintopia> it's easy enough to do computation in many dimensions
19:45:49 <TieSoul> that will be done by putting the 2,3,4,5...-dimensional coordinates before the line
19:49:28 <fizzie> In the time-honored Assembly tradition, nothing is working right here.
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19:51:50 <TieSoul> http://bpaste.net/show/tcsF1mXcInau1cr5ftKZ/ < what I'm planning for the language. Feedback?
19:55:17 <TieSoul> oh, I forgot, new lines are denoted by ascii character 10
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20:03:57 <TieSoul> What don't you understand?
20:09:38 <TieSoul> do you mean the dimension thing?
20:09:45 <HackEgo> wabetcoin jrowncoin aracketlancoin feracoin brbcoin smdcoin bubcoin bfjousiccoin devebantumbraidicoin producoin cicsends.jscoin gorycoin kayarcoin mkbcoin indecoin sumercoin grotorcoin minuongshawcoin self-brokeryedumberckcoin bitcoin
20:10:20 <TieSoul> if you want a 3-dimensional program, and the first line is on 3D coordinate 1, you can do
20:11:36 <TieSoul> then when you make another line, it will be on coords 1,1 if you don't specify anything
20:11:43 <int-e> you've described a syntax, but what are the semantics?
20:11:52 <TieSoul> http://bpaste.net/show/tcsF1mXcInau1cr5ftKZ/
20:12:04 <int-e> that's what I've read
20:12:12 <TieSoul> then I clearly don't know what semantics means
20:12:42 <int-e> what happens when the program is executed?
20:13:10 <TieSoul> well, I haven't gotten that far yet
20:13:30 <TieSoul> but there'll an IP that moves along with a delta
20:13:58 <TieSoul> and there'll be instructions that the IP executes, and they can change the delta to any multi-dimensional vector
20:14:15 <TieSoul> that's about as far as I've got
20:15:05 <TieSoul> (as long as that multi-dimensional vector fits within the amount of dimensions of the program
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20:16:56 <TieSoul-mobile> If you said anything after my last message I didn't see it :P
20:17:33 <int-e> TieSoul-mobile: you could check the logs, but nothing was said in the meantime
20:19:54 <quintopia> i don't really see the benefit of all those dimensions
20:20:39 <quintopia> we can avoid intersection of code lines with only 3 dimensions
20:20:53 <quintopia> TieSoul-mobile: to create the smallest compiler possible
20:22:39 <quintopia> ok i'll give you five bfjousicoin if you succeed
20:24:29 <HackEgo> razycoin malcoin belcoin colliiecoin ted!coin pointercacoin bestfrocercoin cloorthcoin l00coin phoniccoin .yacuaticoin spilecoin udacoin disilacoin uncitocoin dracoin capuicoin moustcoin oischemcoin audinava2coin
20:24:59 <int-e> `` printf "%u" $((~0))
20:25:35 <int-e> `` printf "%d" $((~0)) # alas...
20:26:30 <int-e> I suggested "coercoin" a while ago but nobody reacted.
20:33:07 <myname> inrecommend unciteocoin for wikipedia sponsoring
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21:35:37 <FreeFull> It would be fun if the coin thing was fed by markov chains and logs from here
21:36:51 <int-e> fungot: give us a coin, please
21:36:51 <fungot> int-e: it's a lot of pictures of fnord and strcat. so what is a ' cell tracker' for 9110, btw.
21:37:10 <int-e> not the f-word! please! have mercy!
21:52:17 <fungot> shachaf: something stinks here. the lady replied... " but i had noticable slow down when conducting sisc upgrade test
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21:57:17 <ais523_> finally, I have success in the "get Windows to work again" direction
21:57:43 <ais523_> I'm not sure if I'm going to go beyond this and actually attempt to install Visual Studio
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22:01:38 <ais523_> it was quite the adventure, I might write a blog post about it
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22:17:52 <oerjan> <quintopia> help i'm trying to find the original source of the comic graph of "physics knowledge vs. how much sense the universe makes". i'm pretty sure it's SMBC, or if not that, then xkcd, but I can't find it <-- well googling your term doesn't give me any _copy_ of the graph either.
22:18:10 <oerjan> which makes it a little hard to get started.
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22:20:15 <ais523_> there were numerous problems
22:20:26 <ais523_> and I only just resolved the last one (I was having the same problem as the last comment here: http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/windowsserver/en-US/6119d4c0-c3c0-40bf-9c3e-46b46915e738/service-not-start-access-denied-software-protection-event-logs?forum=winservergen)
22:21:15 <ais523_> Herman Bonnie, I don't know who you are, but thanks for the advice, and thanks for letting me know about procmon
22:21:34 <ais523_> for several hours, I was thinking "if only I had a Windows version of strace, this would be easy to fix"
22:21:55 <ais523_> and procmon has a subset of strace's abilities, but fortunately, all the functionality I needed was in that subset
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22:26:59 <quintopia> oerjan: i can find a link to a copy hold on
22:27:39 <quintopia> (however, note that this will not contain any references to the original source, so it will still be hard to get started)
22:30:01 <oerjan> although with some luck maybe it'll jog my memory
22:31:32 <quintopia> http://www.quora.com/Religion/How-does-one-believe-in-so-called-God-when-Science-proves-everything
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22:33:07 <oerjan> why are you linking to that, also i can only read the first answer
22:34:17 <quintopia> http://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-dec081428190913d063e3ef0a62eb191?convert_to_webp=true
22:35:40 <oerjan> well that allowed me to google the first phrase properly
22:36:19 <oerjan> giving this, which credits zach weiner (of smbc) https://twitter.com/sndrclsn/status/486748250071126016
22:36:45 <quintopia> yes i was pretty sure that's where i saw it thanks
22:37:54 <oerjan> the reddit link points me on to the right comic http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2376 (red button)
22:43:09 <quintopia> damn smbc site doesn't say what license these are published on the main front page :(
22:46:39 <oerjan> in a shocking development, dmm's latest comic, planet of hats, isn't open licensed either
22:47:23 <oerjan> hm i guess darths & droids isn't either
22:47:41 <oerjan> but all the others that i remember
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23:13:00 <ais523_> is some sort of proxy involved?
23:13:07 <ais523_> compare http and https, see if one is more reliable than the other
23:13:13 <ais523_> (either way round would be interesting)
23:21:25 <oerjan> there are approximately none
23:21:48 <ais523_> quintopia: the "compare http and https" was meant as an attempt to detect one
23:22:15 <ais523_> you might also want to try looking at https certificates to see if they're being replaced
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23:25:47 <oerjan> it's funny how my favorite puzzles from simon tatham's have changed after i got a new laptop - solely because the new touchpad is more awkward for frequent precision clicks
23:27:02 <oerjan> i used to do lightup for a _long_ time, but now i get annoyed after a couple tries.
23:27:39 <oerjan> some of the awkwardness might be because i'm now actually keeping it in my lap.
23:28:36 <oerjan> so i've sort of changed to doing more of the puzzle that have good keyboard shortcuts.
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23:43:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RAGE]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40230 * 173.240.241.83 * (+21) Redirected page to [[RAGE!!!]]
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