←2010-09 2010-10 2010-11→ ↑2010 ↑all
2010-10-01
00:01:42 <Phantom_Hoover> I HAVE A FIRST DRAFT READY
00:01:44 <Phantom_Hoover> YAAAAAY
00:01:49 * Phantom_Hoover → SLEEP
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00:30:22 <alise> back
00:30:55 <oerjan> left arm
00:40:39 <alise> archaeology
00:40:46 <alise> <nooga> urgh
00:40:46 <alise> <nooga> i like stoner rock
00:40:48 <alise> SO HORRIBLE, TO LIKE
00:46:37 <Ilari> Wasn't that address (192.88.99.1) the global IPv4 anycast of 6to4 gateways?
00:48:40 <Sgeo> Yes
00:51:53 <oerjan> > 3 / 1.4^2
00:51:54 <lambdabot> 1.5306122448979593
00:53:39 <Sgeo> lol
00:56:01 <alise> > 1 / 123456789
00:56:02 <lambdabot> 8.100000073710001e-9
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01:10:12 <alise> heh, BytePusher runs at 3.93 MHz
01:10:16 <alise> that's fast!
01:12:08 <alise> cool, bytepusher uses C as an assembler XD
01:13:57 <Gregor> Guh?
01:17:04 <alise> Gregor: It does.
01:17:16 <alise> Gregor: It has a little header of C code that defines some stuff like jmp() and lbl().
01:17:25 <alise> Then it has loops to automate the generation of tedious code.
01:17:31 <alise> And it all gets spat out to a .BytePusher file.
01:17:35 <Gregor> I'm confused by what the 4MHz number has to do with the C-as-asm statement.
01:17:39 <alise> Gregor: Nothing.
01:17:43 <alise> I was just looking at BytePusher.
01:17:45 <Gregor> Ah
01:19:27 <alise> it's common in minimalist riscs to have a skip-if-condition and a single unconditional jump instruction rather than conditional jumps, right?
01:20:39 <Gregor> Or do-if-condition
01:20:44 <nooga> i wonder if one could mimic try ... catch ... finally in C
01:21:02 <Gregor> nooga: setjmp/longjmp
01:21:12 <nooga> but syntacticaly
01:21:16 <oerjan> try ... fail ... give up
01:21:19 <alise> Gregor: you mean have an extra conditional in each instruction?
01:21:20 <nooga> using clever macros
01:21:21 <alise> yeah that's fun
01:21:26 <alise> but means every instruction could branch
01:21:26 <Gregor> nooga: A few wonky macros, no problem.
01:21:28 <alise> which is sort of ~not fun~
01:21:30 <Gregor> alise: ARM does
01:21:34 <alise> nooga: yes, it's been done
01:21:42 <nooga> url plz
01:21:42 <alise> Gregor: hmm, does it do anything fancy?
01:21:52 <alise> nooga: JFGI
01:22:02 <Gregor> alise: Almost always the condition is just used on branch instructions, but ANY instruction can be conditional.
01:22:10 <alise> "try and catch in C", fourth freaking result
01:22:18 <alise> Gregor: That must fuck everything up.
01:22:34 <alise> Gregor: Also, that's a pretty CISC thing to do, isn't it?
01:22:45 <alise> MIPS is cooler anyway :P
01:22:45 <Gregor> alise: ARM isn't really RISC :P
01:22:51 <alise> yeah fuck ARM
01:22:55 <alise> MIPS 4eva
01:22:59 <Gregor> MIPS just has conditional branches.
01:23:41 <alise> Gregor: what's the point of condition flags and the like? are they faster than registers? i've forgotten
01:23:53 <alise> or is it just to avoid legislating a format for booleans :P
01:23:55 <nooga> cool
01:23:56 <Gregor> I'm not architectury enough to answer that.
01:25:52 * alise wonders if "eq d,a,b" should leave d alone if a =/= b, or set it to zero
01:25:54 <alise> the former, I think
01:26:02 <alise> you can always zero it beforehand
01:26:50 <alise> Gregor: all these registers are so bloated compared to OISCs >_>
01:26:59 <alise> The PDP-8 only had 8 instructions, and it was CISC! :P
01:30:21 <Ilari> Sgeo: BTW, how much you get from test-IPv6 tests? :-)
01:38:23 <Sgeo> Ilari, hm?
01:38:27 <alise> LD r1, r1; LD r2, r2; EQ r3, r1, r2; SNZ r3; JMP end; ... end:
01:38:31 <Sgeo> I just found out about it from Wikipedia
01:38:34 <alise> That's an awfully long series of instructions for if (*x==*y)
01:39:54 <Ilari> I get 10/10 for both dual stack and v6 only tests... :-)
01:39:59 <alise> Modern top-down programming is tested rigorously at every step even before the full design has completed; unfinished components are filled in by stubs so that the program can be tested. ...So top-down programming has turned into a freaky version of bottom-up programming. Lovely!
01:40:16 <alise> Ilari: If only anyone else did so you could put it to use >:)
01:44:22 <alise> 07:15:05 <fizzie> And dbc's ascii-art.
01:44:23 <alise> dbc's?
01:44:26 <alise> he never talks!
01:44:30 <alise> [suddenly, dbc talks]
01:44:40 <alise> 07:15:32 <fizzie> I think there was in... not more than five years ago.
01:44:41 <alise> lawl
01:47:25 <dbc> I don't talk much.
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01:55:41 <alise> dbc: You're so predictable, talking when someone says you're not going to talk.
01:55:52 <alise> dbc: In fact, I bet you don't say something very soon.
01:57:05 <alise> Goodnight. Bye.
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02:15:01 <Gregor> Somebody needs to write an OISC backend for GCC.
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02:34:45 <Gregor> And binutils I spose ..
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05:17:26 <coppro> what's wrong with this picture (hint, 4 things): 00:16 < Oleg_> I have a question. What C++ code for unicode would correspond to ANSCII value 129?
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05:19:02 * Sgeo sees 3
05:19:25 <Sgeo> Wait, n.. oh, still
05:19:27 <coppro> Sgeo: which?
05:19:32 <Sgeo> "ANSCII"
05:19:42 <coppro> #1
05:19:54 <Sgeo> was thinking the 129, but then thought it was acceptable, but then that's some extended junk, right?
05:19:56 <lament> 129, "code for unicode", and Oleg
05:20:05 <Sgeo> "C++" has nothing to do with anything
05:21:19 <coppro> my 4 were: ANSCII, 129, "C++ code for unicode" twice; once for assuming C++ has any unicode support, twice for asking for a "code for unicode"
05:21:59 <Sgeo> As far as the C++ thing goes, I just saw it as "Well, the question should fundamentally be language-independent"
05:22:01 <lament> also you shouldn't use the nick Oleg unless you're really smart
05:23:19 <coppro> why not?
05:24:20 <lament> coppro: because the real Oleg is the person who owns this site http://okmij.org/ftp/
05:25:37 <coppro> that's quite impressive
05:25:45 <coppro> incidentally, I think I'm insane
05:26:07 <coppro> I'm considering trying to gun for a triple major and a minor
05:40:09 <Gregor> With those majors in some things borderline-useful?
05:40:17 <Gregor> Or are we talking philosophy, linguistics and psychology?
05:43:36 <pikhq> Gregor: Linguistics is borderline-useful. Keep in mind that you put it into application rather often. ;)
05:44:26 <Gregor> I guess by "borderline-useful" I mean "puts food on the table"
05:44:46 <Gregor> Linguistics can only do that paired with something actually useful (e.g. CS)
05:45:00 <pikhq> Unless you're in academics.
05:45:12 <pikhq> In which case it doesn't matter you could be studying basket weaving.
05:46:01 <pikhq> And psychology is something like 3/4ths bullshit, due to lack of knowledge.
05:46:11 <pikhq> Philosophy? Formal study of bullshit.
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05:46:30 <pikhq> Which makes it both useless and astoundingly fascinating at the same time.
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05:55:39 <Gregor> ALSO pikhq: Go read the Fythe spec dammit!
05:56:45 <Gregor> (The first bit I actually added some text to that is)
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06:02:24 <Rugxulo> welp, haven't been here in a while
06:04:15 <Rugxulo> probably missed something interesting ... oh well (not going to read hundreds of old logs, even if it has only been like two or three months, heh)
06:07:42 <Rugxulo> okay, I'll just say it, I know it's lame to most of you, but I did port my Befunge-93 interpreter to Modula-2, and I (optionally) crammed its source into less than 80x25 (w/ example too)
06:08:14 <Rugxulo> crappy, crazy, useless but whatever ... tada! ;-)
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06:19:55 <coppro> things I want: candies that taste like vitamin C pills but do not give indigestion
06:22:42 <Rugxulo> orange?
06:22:49 <Rugxulo> the fruit?
06:23:50 <coppro> they are not the same
06:23:57 <coppro> I mean like exactly the same
06:24:14 <Rugxulo> I just meant why complicate it? just eat an orange ;-)
06:25:37 <coppro> because it does not taste the same
06:26:05 <Rugxulo> close enough, plus it's easily available and has vitamin C
06:26:13 <Rugxulo> and all natural
06:26:19 <Rugxulo> and probably cheaper too (hopefully)
06:27:11 <coppro> a) not close enough
06:27:29 <coppro> b) I don't want vitamin C. The problem is the damned pills give you indigestion if you have too many
06:27:46 <Rugxulo> then don't eat too many!
06:28:10 <coppro> but I want to
06:28:13 <coppro> because they are yummy
06:28:34 <Rugxulo> well your stomach doesn't, obviously, so you have to compromise
06:28:43 <Rugxulo> er, coppromise
06:29:40 * coppro should work
06:29:51 <coppro> Sgeo: you're an expert at not working. help me stop
06:47:42 <lament> i think philosophy is pretty cool
06:47:45 <lament> some of it, anyway
06:47:49 <lament> not all
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10:27:32 <Vorpal> morning ←
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14:01:04 <Phantom_Hoover> There is a film coming out about Facebook.
14:01:10 <Phantom_Hoover> This saddens me.
14:01:41 <Slereah> Is it about a middle aged woman who discovers the internet
14:01:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Fortunately, I saw the trailer for it immediately before watching Inception, which erased the horror from my mind for at least a month.
14:01:46 <Slereah> Because that is basically facebook
14:01:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Slereah, no, it's about the founding.
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16:00:27 <alise> LOL, BUT REALLY
16:01:52 <alise> 21:17:26 <coppro> what's wrong with this picture (hint, 4 things): 00:16 < Oleg_> I have a question. What C++ code for unicode would correspond to ANSCII value 129?
16:02:02 <alise> "code for unicode", esp. supposing unicode is a charset
16:02:04 <alise> ANSCII
16:02:10 <alise> 129 is outside of ASCII
16:02:31 <alise> prolly "C++ code for [meant to be charset]" and thinking "unicode" is a charset is two things
16:03:20 <Phantom_Hoover> An immensely annoying number of people think the ASCII is 8-bit.
16:03:30 <alise> 21:46:11 <pikhq> Philosophy? Formal study of bullshit.
16:03:34 <alise> my philosophy-studying friend can confirm this :)
16:03:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: lawl "the ASCII" :)
16:03:58 <alise> 22:19:55 <coppro> things I want: candies that taste like vitamin C pills but do not give indigestion
16:03:58 <alise> THIS
16:04:00 <Phantom_Hoover> The bullshit was a brown colour, and was sloppy.
16:04:07 <alise> multivitamins: stupid
16:04:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Deposits were found on my shoe.
16:04:09 <alise> their taste: AWESOME
16:08:20 <Gregor> You can just chug citric acid.
16:08:23 <Gregor> That's fun.
16:08:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm...
16:08:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, do not lol at "the ASCII".
16:09:31 <Gregor> The American Standard Code for I[something] Interchange?
16:09:43 <Gregor> Hahaha you said "The"!
16:10:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I was waiting for someone to notice that I say that, actually.
16:10:56 <Gregor> Well, people on Internet tend to add or remove the word "the" indiscriminately.
16:10:59 <Phantom_Hoover> It occurred to me one day and I haven't been able to stop since.
16:11:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I suspect that I shall now end up talking about the TCP and the UTF-8.
16:11:50 <Phantom_Hoover> ME GO TOO FAR
16:12:03 <Gregor> The transfer control "TCP" protocol.
16:12:07 <Phantom_Hoover> ME AM PLAY GOD WITH GRAMMATICAL CORRECTION.
16:12:21 <Gregor> Dern, /transmissions/ control.
16:12:22 <Phantom_Hoover> The TCP protocol for transmission control.
16:12:36 <Gregor> Dern, /transmission/ control (where'd that plural come from :P )
16:13:06 <alise> If I get a Ph.D. and change my name to Iliad, I'll be Dr. I. Hird, or, backwards, Dr. I. Hird.
16:13:10 <alise> I have a new life goal.
16:13:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You do realise that acronyms aren't really their expansions?
16:13:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Why not change your last name to whatever ais' middle one is.
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16:13:52 <alise> That's why RAS syndrome is a stupid complaint/.
16:13:54 <alise> *complaint.
16:13:59 <alise> "HURR HE SAID ATM MACHINE"
16:14:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Ian?
16:14:06 <alise> Because Ian is a crappy name!
16:14:11 <alise> Maybe Imhotep. I would become invisible.
16:14:12 <Phantom_Hoover> IIIRC he said it wasn't.
16:14:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Iain?
16:14:20 <alise> It is Ian.
16:14:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Scottish names are good atmaking the English mispronounce them.
16:14:37 <Phantom_Hoover> *at making
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17:01:53 <Gregor> Well, nobody likes the English.
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17:05:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, perhaps the English do.
17:05:52 <Gregor> The English LEAST of all.
17:05:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Although that's strongly debatable.
17:06:00 <Gregor> Nobody hates the English more than the English.
17:06:04 <Phantom_Hoover> The BNP?
17:06:59 -!- tombom has joined.
17:07:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Although they hate a lot of the English as well...
17:08:33 <Phantom_Hoover> In the same vein, HP Lovecraft was a dedicated Anglophile.
17:11:19 <alise> "I know that astrology isn't a science," said Gail. "Of course it isn't. It's just an arbitrary set of rules like chess or tennis or, what's that strange thing you British play?"
17:11:19 <alise> "Er, cricket? Self-loathing?"
17:11:22 <alise> -- Douglas Adams
17:13:01 <alise> (Next line: ""Parliamentary democracy. The rules just kind of got there. They don't make any kind of sense except in terms of themselves. But when you start to exercise those rules, all sorts of processes start to happen and you start to find out all sorts of stuff about people. [...]")
17:13:04 <alise> s/""/"/
17:14:38 <Phantom_Hoover> WHY DID DOUGLAS ADAMS HAVE TO DIE
17:14:41 <Phantom_Hoover> IT WAS SO RUDE
17:14:47 <alise> It was.
17:15:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: And it left us with "...And Another Thing".
17:15:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Written by an IRISHMAN
17:15:33 <alise> A work of fanfiction so unsatisfactory as an entry in the H2G2 trilogy, it makes me want to write a better one.
17:15:35 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not the SAME
17:15:53 <Phantom_Hoover> The SELF-LOATHING just ISN'T THERE
17:16:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, it is an excellent imitation of Douglas' style. But it's ... frozen, somehow, a stereotype rather than a homage.
17:16:29 <alise> And while it's a decent book, it's a bad H2G2 book.
17:16:35 <alise> Rename the characters, republish, good book.
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17:25:17 <Sgeo> I think the only reason my singing sounded bad was because it wasn't in-sync with the music underneath
17:25:24 <Sgeo> I think raw singing by itself should be ok
17:29:16 <Phantom_Hoover> _NO_
17:29:52 <Phantom_Hoover> The tone was all wrong, the voice was annoying and the timing wasn't just desynced, it was completely wrong.
17:31:29 <Sgeo> But those things, in and of itself, shouldn't be grating
17:32:13 <Phantom_Hoover> what
17:32:31 <Phantom_Hoover> They are not just grating, they are *effing* grating.
17:32:54 <alise> Sgeo: *You* *cannot* *sing*
17:33:01 <alise> It is as simple as that, my friend.
17:33:28 <Sgeo> So when I'm bored at a bus stop, I should try to avoid vocalizing whatever song's floating through my head?
17:33:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I cannot sing either. I realise this, and I avoid singing at all costs.
17:33:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, YES.
17:34:29 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.conservapedia.com/Obamageddon THIS WORKS EVEN BETTER WITH AN ATHEIST NON-RHOTIC ACCENT
17:34:42 <alise> <Sgeo> So when I'm bored at a bus stop, I should try to avoid vocalizing whatever song's floating through my head? ;; oh god yes
17:35:08 <Sgeo> Can I at least hum?
17:35:15 <alise> NO
17:35:18 <Sgeo> ....?
17:35:44 * alise listens to your thing again juts to make sure
17:35:46 <Phantom_Hoover> DO NOT ATTEMPT TO MAKE ANY FORM OF TUNE WITH YOUR LUNGS
17:35:53 <alise> *just
17:35:58 * Phantom_Hoover too
17:36:12 <alise> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/unknownsongs.wav ;; yeah don't hum dude :{
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17:36:16 <Phantom_Hoover> O GOD I LEFT THE VOLUME TOO HIGH
17:36:21 <Phantom_Hoover> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
17:36:22 <Sgeo> alise, that's not humming
17:37:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i need a link :{
17:37:41 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/paint_it_black_karaoke.ogg
17:38:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm actually fairly desensitised to Sgeo's voice by now.
17:38:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I actually know someone with a more annoying one.
17:38:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Postcode, weaknesses?
17:38:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know either of these things.
17:38:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Is their weakness GUNS?
17:38:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I seem to infuriate him, though, so that's one attack strategy.
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17:58:11 <alise> hi hailtothethief
17:58:19 <hailtothethief> hello
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18:12:08 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: DO NOT ATTEMPT TO MAKE ANY FORM OF TUNE WITH YOUR LUNGS // /me tries to figure out a way to make a tune with his lungs that isn't singing, beat-boxing or otherwise producing sound via the vocal chords, mouth, tongue, teeth and lips.
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18:13:58 <Gregor> I guess you can just breathe in and out while using your chest as a percussive instrument.
18:36:54 <alise> Gregor: Extract your lungs, stretch them, bang as percussive instrument.
18:37:00 <alise> You may need a lung transplant first.
18:37:03 <Gregor> Touche!
18:59:00 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, incidentally, if you wanted to wipe out the area in which the guy with the voice more annoying than Sgeo's in it, don't bother
18:59:03 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not regional.
18:59:41 <alise> I was just going to wipe out him.
19:00:03 <Phantom_Hoover> My description would be something along the lines of nasal and lisping, as well as so camp that when he walks into a room the average Kinsey rating rises by at least a point.
19:00:21 <Gregor> ... laaaaaaaaaaaaawl
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19:00:55 <alise> :D
19:01:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I've been saving that one for a while.
19:01:14 <Gregor> Did you actually post a link to said guy's voice?
19:01:40 <Gregor> Or are we just to take your word for it?
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19:01:55 <Gregor> I'M THE ONLY GR NOW YAY
19:02:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, I don't exactly whip out a dictaphone when talking to people.
19:02:30 <Gregor> ... you don't?
19:02:32 <alise> "But I do whip out my dic--" "Excuse me, sir."
19:02:51 <Gregor> I whip out my dick and dictaphone when talking to people.
19:02:57 <Gregor> As they're the same instrument.
19:03:00 <alise> OH JUST DESTROY THE SUBTLETY THANKS GREGOR
19:03:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I've already got enough notoriety at my school for carefully spreading misinformation as to the reason for my departure from the previous one
19:03:15 <Gregor> 's what I do.
19:03:27 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Blew it up?
19:03:36 <alise> When you said "instrument", I thought "dick solo", which just... yeah, this channel now officially has no class.
19:03:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I implied that it was due to the
19:03:50 <alise> Due to the --
19:03:54 <alise> [and he was shot]
19:03:57 <Gregor> Rhapsody in Pink for Penis and Vagina
19:04:02 <Phantom_Hoover> nmmjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj
19:04:11 <Gregor> That joke was almost too stupid to be said.
19:04:17 <alise> Gregor: Organ In A Minor
19:04:19 <alise> *in
19:04:26 <Gregor> ... X-D
19:04:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I implied that it was due to assault with a spoon.
19:05:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Which is sort of true.
19:05:26 <Gregor> Does LaTeX have a BNF package that isn't made of suck?
19:06:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Please, please elaborate on how it was sort of true.
19:06:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I did assault someone with a spoon.
19:07:01 <Phantom_Hoover> But I didn't get kicked out immediately for it.
19:07:16 <alise> Why ... did you assault someone ... with a spoon ...
19:07:18 <alise> XD
19:07:31 <Phantom_Hoover> THAT IS ALL I SHALL SAY ON THE MATTER
19:07:45 <alise> BAH
19:07:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Except that he may have required stitches.
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19:11:57 <Phantom_Hoover_> Hello everyone!
19:12:07 <Phantom_Hoover_> My battery is apparently broken!
19:12:09 <Phantom_Hoover_> Yaaaay!
19:12:50 <Phantom_Hoover_> It wasn't broken an hour ago!
19:12:52 <Phantom_Hoover_> Yaaaay!
19:14:10 <alise> FORK
19:16:00 <Phantom_Hoover_> What about it?
19:17:13 <alise> Forks.
19:18:48 <Phantom_Hoover_> What about them?
19:19:06 <alise> they eat
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19:25:31 <pikhq> Well, that was fun. Finally heard a piece on the classical station here that I was familiar with that *wasn't* a listener request.
19:25:43 <pikhq> ... Because I have performed said piece.
19:27:10 <pikhq> (for some reason, when the station's open to requests, everyone requests things that just about everyone has heard. Find me someone who hasn't heard "Dance of the Sugarplum Fairy" and I'll show you someone who was born deaf.)
19:29:58 <alise> pikhq: Dial in and request The Black Eyed Peas' "My Humps".
19:30:01 <alise> You must.
19:30:34 <pikhq> alise: I doubt they'd have it. It's a classical station.
19:30:41 <alise> pikhq: I say, I say, that's a joke, son.
19:30:42 <fizzie> The pinnacle of all music: canyon.mid. (That thing which came with win3.1 multimedia thingies, possibly 9x and later too.)
19:30:46 <pikhq> However, I *could* request 4'33".
19:31:06 <alise> Request 59"59', the little-known sequel to 4'33".
19:31:16 <alise> *59'59"
19:31:26 <pikhq> *groan*
19:34:03 <Gregor> fizzie: IIRC, canyon.mid was actually pretty darn awesome :P
19:34:29 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIW4F285QjA
19:34:44 <Gregor> pikhq: Anecdote you just reminded me of:
19:34:48 <alise> PLAY IT ON AN MT-32
19:35:01 <Gregor> A friend of mine and I like to play "guess-that-composer" when there's something we don't recognize playing.
19:35:06 <Gregor> But we both suck at it, so instead we choose letters.
19:35:11 <alise> wat
19:35:15 <Gregor> One person gets to choose 'B', and the other person chooses two other letters.
19:35:26 <Gregor> If either letter is the first letter of the last name of the composer, that person wins.
19:35:33 <Gregor> But that's not the anecdote :P
19:36:03 <Gregor> The anecdote is that we were playing that game when something we couldn't identify came on. It was clearly Beethoven, but it obviously wasn't because we would have recognized it.
19:36:21 <Gregor> So we were debating who would have written in such a distinctively-German early Romantic style other than Beethoven.
19:36:45 <Vorpal> <Gregor> One person gets to choose 'B', and the other person chooses two other letters. <-- why B specifically?
19:37:01 <Gregor> Finally, he took 'B', and I took 'R' and 'S'. For Ravel, which has been known to do some very weird stuff, Sibelius and Saint-Sans.
19:37:10 <Gregor> Vorpal: Because every famous composer is named with a 'B'
19:37:21 <Gregor> I joked "I guess I've got Rimsky-Korsakov too!"
19:37:37 <Gregor> Because it was such an absurd notion that something so distinctively early-Romantic German would be Rimsky-Korsakov.
19:37:54 <Gregor> Suffice it to say: Listen to Rimsky-Korsakov's third symphony some time. It is an interesting experience. I won that game :P
19:37:56 <alise> <Gregor> Vorpal: Because every famous composer is named with a 'B' ;; Bmozart
19:38:01 <Vorpal> Gregor, Like Bozart and Bivaldi?
19:38:10 <alise> lol bozart
19:38:14 <Vorpal> alise, argh you beat me to it
19:38:24 <alise> I wonder how Bmozart is pronounced
19:38:37 <alise> I think "bm" is like the pn pneumatic, except with b instead of p and m instead of n.
19:38:39 <Vorpal> Gregor, heh
19:38:41 <Gregor> Like Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Bizet, Borodin, Balakirev, ...
19:38:47 <fizzie> Bibelius, the more bookish cousin of Sibelius.
19:38:55 <alise> John Bage
19:39:06 <alise> Gregor Bichards
19:39:09 <Gregor> You people have absolutely no understanding of hyperbole.
19:39:13 <alise> Gregor Bitchards
19:39:18 <alise> Gregor: I do, I'm just being silly.
19:39:19 <Vorpal> Gregor, Bayden, Bändel, Bebussy...
19:39:26 <Vorpal> Gregor, you are completely right!
19:39:29 <alise> Bimsky-Korsakov
19:39:59 <Gregor> Brahman
19:40:41 <Vorpal> Gregor, don't forget Erik Batie.
19:41:11 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure that the only composers the average person will name is: Bach, Beethoven, Mozart.
19:41:27 <fizzie> And George Bone, composer of canyon.mid. (Okay, okay, Stone.)
19:41:31 <pikhq> If you're *lucky*, throw Tchaikovsky in there, too.
19:41:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, Maybe Vivaldi or Brahms. Not both though
19:41:48 <Gregor> pikhq: Brahms can make it sometimes.
19:42:05 <pikhq> Vorpal: Gregor: Pieces, maybe. Composer, hahahah no.
19:42:15 <Gregor> "Brahm's Lullaby"
19:42:19 <Vorpal> Gregor, indeed
19:43:17 <pikhq> Still not going to hear Brahms *named*.
19:43:21 <alise> Erik Satie is wonderful.
19:43:32 <Vorpal> alise, Batie*
19:43:42 <alise> Brik Batie
19:43:50 <alise> pikhq: *Bchaikovsky
19:44:00 <alise> Pronunciation left as an exercise to the reader.
19:44:12 <fizzie> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SmallReferencePools says Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, and then quite a list of individual works.
19:44:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, if it comes to listening tests, people will probably recognize stuff by completely different composers than those.
19:44:27 <pikhq> fizzie: That's about right.
19:44:45 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, I'm just mentioning composers with name recognition.
19:44:57 <pikhq> Vorpal: Pieces, of course, you'll have things all over the place.
19:45:36 <Phantom_Hoover_> canyon.mid?
19:45:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, I have done a few tests myself, and Grieg's "I bergakungens sal" (iirc "In the hall of the mountain king" in English) is quite widely recognized, though no one seems to know it's name
19:45:55 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trip_Through_the_Grand_Canyon
19:46:25 <pikhq> Vorpal: Tchaikovsky getting a lot of recognition -- pretty sure Swan Lake, Nutcracker, and 1812 Overture will be instantly recognised (if at the right parts).
19:47:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm the right parts of Carmen even more so. Hardly anyone knows who Bizet was though.
19:47:27 <pikhq> Quite true.
19:47:41 <pikhq> Also, anything that was in Looney Tunes.
19:47:47 <Phantom_Hoover_> That guy who composed what is now the Nokia tone?
19:47:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, but for actual works I think Vivaldi's Spring (first movement) comes very near the top
19:48:11 <pikhq> Oh, undoubtedly.
19:48:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, most people can even identify it as "Spring" in my experience.
19:48:28 <pikhq> Which was in Looney Tunes, IIRC.
19:48:28 <alise> pikhq: Anyone who has ever played Loom has Swan Lake branded onto their heads.
19:48:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, unlike with "In the hall of the mountain king", which no one has a clue what it is named
19:48:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: Doesn't the mountain-kingity also exist as an example multimedia file in some Windows versions?
19:48:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have no idea
19:49:11 <alise> I wonder if "In the Court of the Crimson King" is a reference to that.
19:49:39 <Phantom_Hoover_> Methylated spirits are just alcohol made more deadly.
19:49:46 <Phantom_Hoover_> This depresses me somewhat.
19:49:47 <Vorpal> alise, it isn't exactly an un-obvious name.
19:50:11 <alise> Vorpal: No, but... King Crimson *did* basically take rock, strip away the blues, and put in a whole lot of classical into it.
19:50:12 -!- impomatic has joined.
19:50:16 <alise> So...
19:50:23 <Vorpal> hm
19:50:26 <Phantom_Hoover_> Loom?
19:50:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, googling indicates it's a video game
19:50:38 <Phantom_Hoover_> YOUR POP-CULTURAL REFERENCES BAFFLE ME
19:50:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: a wonderful lucas arts adventure game
19:50:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, it did the same to me
19:50:48 <alise> music is all lovely midi renditions of Swan Lake
19:50:50 <Vorpal> (baffle that is)
19:50:50 <impomatic> Does anyone know when Kerim Aydin invented BF Joust? I suspect it was January 2009
19:50:56 <alise> and the gameplay is music-based
19:50:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://help.lockergnome.com/windows2/Windows-95-Sample-Media-Files--ftopict482130.html -- second post lists the win95 files, and it indeed is there, and also the Bach/Beethoven/Mozart trinity.
19:51:10 <alise> (you "weave" spells by playing little snippets of music)
19:51:18 <alise> in part
19:51:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, .rmi?
19:51:56 <Phantom_Hoover_> impomatic, check the wiki article's history?
19:52:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: it predates the wiki
19:52:11 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
19:52:13 <alise> impomatic: I can grep my Agora emails.
19:52:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: RIFF-encapsulated MIDI.
19:52:19 <alise> impomatic: Also, he goes by "G.".
19:52:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, um... riff?
19:52:32 <pikhq> “An unfortunate truth is that for the vast majority of people, the only music that matters is the music that was recorded from about five years after they were born until today. Everything else is to be considered "boring old farts' music" and not worth exploring.”
19:52:37 <pikhq> This... Is depressing.
19:53:09 <alise> pikhq: I listen to oldish music :<
19:53:10 <pikhq> I don't even like most of the musical genres popular during my lifetime!
19:53:11 <Vorpal> hm
19:53:16 <Phantom_Hoover_> !bfjoust
19:53:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: What .wavs and .avis are; a generic tagged-block metaformat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_Interchange_File_Format
19:53:23 <Vorpal> alise, you alone do not make up the majority of people :P
19:53:28 <Phantom_Hoover_> !show userinterps
19:53:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
19:53:32 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
19:53:32 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
19:53:51 <Phantom_Hoover_> !userinterps
19:53:51 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pi pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
19:54:05 <Phantom_Hoover_> !pirate Hello, world!
19:54:13 <Vorpal> um
19:54:20 <EgoBot> Avast, world! We'll keel-haul ye!
19:54:24 <Vorpal> !show userinterps
19:54:24 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
19:54:26 <Vorpal> aha
19:54:44 <Phantom_Hoover_> !pirate Was "Hello, world!" special-cased?
19:54:44 <EgoBot> Was "Avast, world! Shiver me timbers!" special-cased?
19:54:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> !pirate It appears so.
19:54:54 <EgoBot> It appears so.
19:55:08 <Vorpal> wtf that is pathetic
19:55:11 <fizzie> !pirate who does nothing. (A tvtrope name.)
19:55:12 <EgoBot> who does nothing. And swab the deck! (A tvtrope name. Pass the grog!)
19:55:13 <alise> impomatic: "braincorefckwars", 2008-12-18. "BF Joust" first mentioned same day. Submissions solicited and announcement of working tournament runner, 2008-12-19.
19:55:21 <alise> impomatic: All posts by G. .
19:55:27 <alise> (How does one end a sentence with "G."?)
19:55:55 <impomatic> alise: thanks :-)
19:56:12 <Phantom_Hoover_> Incidentally, I just ended up going on an almost circuitous path through TV Tropes!
19:56:37 <alise> impomatic: First draft of Agoran contest posted 2008-12-20, contest begins officially a few days later.
19:58:19 <impomatic> Thanks alise. Just adding something brief to the programming games wiki.
20:08:36 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
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20:11:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Help! I'm running into a cyclic goal error!
20:11:28 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:11:35 <Phantom_Hoover_> Oh no!
20:11:50 <ais523> is me joining the channel that devastating?
20:12:00 <ais523> or is it just a case of context slipping away due to extenuating factors?
20:12:48 <alise> ais523: Both!
20:12:51 <alise> Actually just the latter.
20:19:02 <Vorpal> alise, cyclic goal error with what?
20:19:25 <alise> Leaden.
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20:32:43 <alise> Specifically, I can't figure out a language to write it in, which leads to me mentally constructing a brand new one, and then when I think "ok, I should write this down", I want leaden.
20:34:45 <olsner> "leaden", is that a language I've heard about?
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20:35:37 -!- Harpyon has joined.
20:38:15 <alise> olsner: nope
20:38:20 <alise> it is an editor you've heard about, i think
20:38:43 <olsner> ah, right, I probably have
20:38:47 <olsner> recognize the name at least
20:41:35 <Vorpal> alise, how do you plan to avoid disk trashing situations with the orthogonal persistence in aliseos?
20:42:03 <alise> Vorpal: cleverly
20:42:13 <Vorpal> alise, interesting, do you have anything specific in mind?
20:42:20 <alise> the reason Mitosis exists is so that i can get this stuff wrong so many times i must inevitably hit upon the right solution eventually :)
20:42:39 <alise> Vorpal: well, we'll all be using SSDs at least by the time it's ready.
20:42:52 <alise> and if their lifespan increases, which it should...
20:43:06 <Vorpal> alise, heh
20:43:15 <alise> Vorpal: plus only persisting every N time, of course
20:43:16 <Vorpal> alise, it wasn't that that I had in mind
20:43:20 <alise> every 100ms, say
20:43:23 <Vorpal> alise, rather, something similar to swap trashing
20:43:39 <Vorpal> alise, even SSDs are not as fast as main memory
20:43:41 <alise> i don't see the relevance to the persistence system?
20:44:03 <alise> you mean taking an awful lot of time just to persist?
20:44:13 <Vorpal> not exactly
20:44:18 <Vorpal> let me explain
20:45:13 <Vorpal> presumably you will persist application state? And you have one big virtual address. The application is not aware of the ram/disk distinction
20:45:31 <alise> Everything will be persisted. More or less. I'm not even entirely sure that temporary variables won't be.
20:45:33 <Vorpal> alise, so it can't know how large the "ram" is
20:45:45 <alise> Vorpal: There's a magical third address space that both RAM and disk map to.
20:45:57 <Vorpal> alise, so it can't try to make a ram/speed tradeoff. Some programs do that even today
20:45:59 <alise> RAM with paging, disk with a tree structure.
20:46:21 <alise> Vorpal: Yeah, well, some. The idea of course is that the OS is sufficiently intelligent to prioritise the right bits of data.
20:47:04 <alise> Vorpal: But... I don't see why you can't get at the amount of physical RAM in the system.
20:47:13 <alise> With swapping, even modern systems make this fuzzy.
20:47:14 <Vorpal> alise, well... yeah, but that doesn't help making a good memory/speed tradeoff really. If you select different algorithms or different algorithm parameters based on how much ram there is. Since you can't do that any longer.
20:47:20 <Vorpal> alise, ah okay
20:47:27 <alise> Vorpal: In general, a running application won't be on disk, anyway.
20:47:33 <Vorpal> alise, right
20:47:40 <alise> Vorpal: Because that's pretty much the worst-case scenario.
20:47:47 <Vorpal> indeed it is
20:48:02 <alise> Indeed almost by definition it won't be; if you're accessing it and competition isn't harsh, it's going to be in RAM for a while.
20:48:32 <Vorpal> well yes
20:49:15 <impomatic> Work in progress -> http://programminggames.org
20:49:22 <Vorpal> alise, anyway there are even applications that try to adapt to cpu cache size. I know I seen that somewhere recently, but I don't remember where.
20:49:37 <Vorpal> iirc it was pretty relevant there too
20:49:39 <alise> I want to live in the Republic of Cascadia.
20:49:47 <Vorpal> alise, oh?
20:49:51 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascadia_(independence_movement)
20:50:07 <alise> Vorpal: British Columbia + Oregon + Washington + sometimes northern California.
20:50:10 <Vorpal> ah
20:50:18 <alise> The United States of Sanity
20:50:48 <Vorpal> why the name "Cascadia"?
20:51:06 <Vorpal> (I'm a bit impaired in browser using atm, due to being extremely close to swap trashing)
20:51:22 <alise> Hmm. Not sure.
20:52:50 <alise> Vorpal: Seems it's the name given to the general area by history.
20:52:58 <alise> Wait, maybe not.
20:52:59 <alise> Oh, whatever.
20:53:29 <alise> impomatic: ASP.NET, interesting platform choice ...
20:53:29 <Vorpal> mhm
20:54:04 <impomatic> alise: it's just what comes with my webhost :-)
20:54:47 <impomatic> I needed a wiki that uses a flat file (SQL costs extra) and they had a one click install for Screwturn.
20:55:28 <Vorpal> what a shitty webhost
20:55:53 <pikhq> impomatic: That's incredibly shitty.
20:56:13 <Vorpal> a Xen based VPS isn't that expensive. (OpenVZ-based VPSes tends to suck, I don't know whyl)
20:56:16 <Vorpal> why*
20:56:23 <impomatic> It's the cheapest I could find with unlimited sites / bandwidth
20:56:44 <pikhq> Bad criteria.
20:56:53 <alise> impomatic: unlimited bandwidth is a marketing lie
20:56:54 <Vorpal> um, you don't need unlimited bw. As for sites? Again VPS wouldn't limit you in that
20:56:57 <alise> it is, literally, never true
20:57:01 <Vorpal> alise, indeed
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20:57:12 <pikhq> alise: Unless you've got a peering relationship.
20:57:13 <alise> Vorpal: otoh, i wouldn't recommend a vps to someone unfamiliar with unix administration.
20:57:21 <Vorpal> hm good point
20:57:25 <alise> but there are better hosts even then.
20:57:27 <pikhq> In which case you have an astounding server room. :)
20:57:33 <Vorpal> alise, I tend to go for pay for bw rate, rather than transfer per month
20:57:58 <Vorpal> at least when I can't predict how much it will use per month
20:58:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:58:10 <alise> "An easy to understand price schedule: $4/month per account, and $1/month for every 64MiB ram. Please note; this means all plans come with $4/month worth of support." --prgmr.com
20:58:16 <Vorpal> rather slow site than one stopping working after 20 days
20:58:21 <alise> So customer-friendly!
20:58:36 <alise> Vorpal: the nice thing with a lot of VPS hosters is that they have no hard bandwidth limits.
20:58:51 <alise> instead just slapping you hard when you get slashdotted twice in a month :)
20:58:55 <Vorpal> alise, indeed. Strangely enough dedi and colo tends to have more stringent limits
21:00:23 <Vorpal> also fuck g++, it is so slow (sure point to clang, but only post 2.7, and this project isn't large enough that building last llvm and clang trunk and then using that would be faster, those are C++ themselves so...)
21:00:45 <pikhq> Vorpal: C++ is pretty inherently slow.
21:00:47 <alise> clang++ 2.7 compiles quite a bit :p
21:01:01 <pikhq> Do you realise how *much* you have to parse per file that uses the STL?
21:01:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, that too
21:01:13 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes I checked
21:01:21 <Vorpal> tends of MB iirc
21:01:23 <Vorpal> tens*
21:02:42 <Vorpal> and how fun, after compiling with -O0 -g it no longer segfaults.... And with -O1 -g it is pretty useless, just lots of value optimized out
21:07:19 <alise> yeah gcc's optimisation is pretty buggy
21:07:22 <alise> in general
21:07:42 <Vorpal> alise, hard to know who is to blame here
21:08:17 <Vorpal> alise, this program is one I expect to have problems with anything but 32-bit x86 linux in general. It has a history of that
21:08:32 <Vorpal> and even then, not the most stable one
21:09:35 <alise> still, if -O1 ever breaks and -O0 doesn't... it should only happen on *really* fucked up code
21:10:08 <Vorpal> alise, could very well be in this case. Half the comments and function names are in German though, so a bit hard to know what is going on in general
21:10:41 <Vorpal> alise, also extremely helpful parameter names:
21:10:43 <Vorpal> 0x000000000061c5ba in display_fb_internal (xp=<value optimized out>, yp=<value optimized out>, w=<value optimized out>, h=1, color=<value optimized out>,
21:10:43 <Vorpal> dirty=<value optimized out>, cL=0, cR=704, cT=0, cB=560)
21:11:08 <alise> i probably wouldn't change that tbh
21:11:14 <alise> xp/yp are obviously coordinate-related
21:11:17 <Vorpal> yes
21:11:20 <alise> w and h are common names for width and height
21:11:23 <Vorpal> the local variable lp though?
21:11:30 <alise> dirty is probably some flag or something
21:11:31 <Vorpal> it crashes on something involving that
21:11:33 <alise> Vorpal: err
21:11:35 <alise> <Vorpal> 0x000000000061c5ba in display_fb_internal (xp=<value optimized out>, yp=<value optimized out>, w=<value optimized out>, h=1, color=<value optimized out>,
21:11:35 <alise> <Vorpal> dirty=<value optimized out>, cL=0, cR=704, cT=0, cB=560)
21:11:37 <alise> is all i saw
21:11:50 <Vorpal> alise, yes indeed, but there is a local variable in addition
21:11:53 <alise> ah
21:12:01 <Vorpal> alise, and it is optimised out
21:12:49 <Vorpal> lets see if this recompile helps (turned of -DNDEBUG which was hidden deep in a makefile)
21:12:59 <Vorpal> might help catch something in advance of the issue
21:13:18 <Vorpal> aargh, now it segfaults there with -O0 too!
21:13:29 <ais523> Vorpal: that probably means there's actually a bug
21:13:34 <Vorpal> wait, "$1 = <value optimized out>"
21:13:36 <Vorpal> that makes no sense
21:13:40 <Vorpal> I'm at -O0
21:13:50 * Vorpal goes looking at the makefile machinery
21:13:56 <ais523> I've seen all sorts of craziness in debug output
21:14:02 <ais523> gdb seems to struggle when there's a lot of data on the stack
21:14:32 <alise> ais523: Bah, {{deletedpage}} is a perfectly good salt, it saved you work :P
21:14:49 <ais523> alise: it's not salting unless the page is actually protected
21:14:52 <ais523> it's just bluffing
21:14:57 <Vorpal> makefile has basically this: "if DEBUG < 2 && !NDEBUG, add -O1"
21:15:00 <Vorpal> that must be buggy
21:15:35 <Vorpal> ais523, what are you talking about?
21:15:42 <ais523> Vorpal: the wiki
21:15:52 <alise> ais523: true, I was just thinking that it'd either be protected or deleted very soon, so it either helps someone know it should be deleted or saves them a post-protection step
21:15:54 <Vorpal> ais523, yes but what specifically are you referring to on it
21:16:03 <alise> Vorpal: see recent changes.
21:16:06 <ais523> alise: note that spambots won't even /read/ a message saying that a page can't be edited...
21:16:17 <ais523> but I see what you mean, you're saving me having to write {{deletedpage}} myself
21:16:27 <ais523> I suppose I care more about instantaneous correctness of admin templates than you do
21:16:55 <Vorpal> alise, what did the deleted page contain?
21:16:57 <alise> ais523: well, it's you we're talking about, admin actions are as instantaneous as it gets
21:16:58 <alise> Vorpal: spam.
21:17:02 <Vorpal> alise, ah
21:17:16 <ais523> alise: I'm not always online
21:17:25 <alise> ais523: maybe we need {{deletedpage}} to only show if the page is protected, somehow :)
21:17:47 <ais523> but then you could just put it on every page
21:18:10 <ais523> ofc, deletedpage is doubly deprecated nowadays on Wikipedia, which has moved on many versions since
21:18:18 <ais523> in recent MediaWiki, you can just protect a page even if it doesn't exist
21:18:44 <Vorpal> <ais523> ofc, deletedpage is doubly deprecated nowadays on Wikipedia, which has moved on many versions since <-- doubly?
21:19:05 <ais523> Vorpal: cascading protection works better than {{deletedpage}}, but less well than doing it properly
21:19:05 <Vorpal> ais523, hm are we running outdated mediawiki?
21:19:11 <ais523> yes
21:19:19 <Vorpal> hm
21:19:21 <ais523> we were running /really/ outdated mediawiki before last time graue was persuaded to upgrade
21:19:28 <ais523> and I think he only did it for compatibility with a better spam filter
21:19:33 <Vorpal> hah
21:19:37 <alise> we're running march 2007 mediawiki, i think
21:19:38 <Vorpal> but what about bugs?
21:19:41 <alise> unless the main page is out of date
21:19:49 <alise> Vorpal: there aren't any serious bugs as far as we can tell
21:19:50 <alise> it works...
21:19:51 <ais523> alise: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Version
21:19:53 <Vorpal> AAAARGH
21:20:05 <Vorpal> it still doesn't crash with -O0 now when I fixed the makefile bug
21:20:15 <alise> "Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason" is such an awesome name.
21:20:32 <alise> I bet he drove the implementation of Unicode support :P
21:20:51 <alise> "You want me to call myself Aevar Arnfjoerth Bjarmason?! BAH"
21:21:09 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:21:10 <ais523> aren't all the special characters there in Latin-1?
21:21:40 -!- nooga has joined.
21:21:52 <alise> ais523: Are you sure eth is?
21:22:05 <ais523> that's the only one I'm not sure about
21:22:21 <alise> Pretty sure it isn't.
21:22:29 <alise> UnicodeU+00D0U+00F0Inherited from the older ISO 8859-1 standard
21:22:34 <ais523> U+00F0
21:22:35 <ais523> it's just in range
21:22:41 <alise> ais523: but it isn't in latin-1
21:22:44 <alise> afaict
21:22:46 <ais523> yes it is
21:22:50 <ais523> latin 1 = ISO 8859-1
21:22:58 <alise> oh :P
21:23:11 <alise> i never realised
21:23:13 <ais523> "ISO/IEC 8859-1:1998, Information technology — 8-bit single-byte coded graphic character sets — Part 1: Latin alphabet No. 1, is part of the ISO/IEC 8859 series of ASCII-based standard character encodings, first edition published in 1987. It is informally referred to as Latin-1."
21:23:20 <ais523> how did you not realise that?
21:23:34 <ais523> did you assume there were two common 8-bit encodings around that were almost identical?
21:23:41 <ais523> which one did you assume matched the bottom 0xFF of Unicode?
21:24:48 <Vorpal> heh
21:25:32 <ais523> (I suppose there's Windows-1252, but everyone vaguely knows that one's nonstandard because Microsoft invented it)
21:26:31 <ais523> hmm, according to Wikipedia, HTML 5 requires documents that claim to be Latin-1 to be parsed as Windows-1252
21:26:40 <ais523> wow, it's taking bug-compatibility seriously...
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21:32:56 -!- cheater99 has joined.
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21:35:01 <alise> ais523: like half of the html5 spec is an anal pseudocode specification of how to parse and handle anything that has a single < in it, or even doesn't
21:35:10 <ais523> alise: reverse-engineered from IE
21:35:25 <alise> so in fact HTML5 also specifies... every byte string :)
21:35:44 <pikhq> ais523: HTML5 specifies, essentially, how to handle retarded HTML.
21:36:44 <pikhq> On the one hand, I feel we should just ban retarded HTML. On the other, I'm at least glad that they're actually *specifying* it rather than leaving browser makers to try and reverse engineer the bullshit.
21:36:58 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:38:01 <alise> things i am learning today: i am terrible at finding bugs in other people's code
21:38:13 <alise> "On the one hand, I feel we should just ban retarded HTML." ;; XHTML tried that, it didn't work :)
21:40:57 <ais523> hmm, it seems someone reimplemented INTERCAL for Windows Phone 7
21:41:06 <alise> this is scary, why can't i figure this out
21:41:09 <pikhq> alise: Yeah; sadly, people are retards.
21:41:18 -!- Slereah has joined.
21:41:32 <ais523> they only distributed a binary, but it's .NET so presumably decompilable
21:42:20 <alise> for some definition of decompilable
21:42:42 <ais523> yep
21:42:57 <ais523> strangely enough, it was released on Twitter
21:43:16 <ais523> http://twitter.com/UberGeekGames/status/22546729564
21:43:38 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:43:56 <ais523> I'm not sure what this says about the future of humanity...
21:44:24 <oerjan> WE'RE DOOMED! DOOMED!
21:44:51 <alise> It's just a merge sort, surely I can find a bug in a merge sort...
21:44:55 * ais523 vaguely wonders why it's asking perms to do things like dial phone numbers and check for locations
21:45:34 <oerjan> ais523: it's probably a spam virus
21:45:39 <ais523> the binary's only 24K
21:45:43 -!- cal153 has quit.
21:45:46 <ais523> so either .NET is very concise, or it's a hoax
21:46:02 <alise> i blame it being java and sorting in-place
21:46:16 <alise> http://twitter.com/UberGeekGames
21:46:19 <alise> does not look like spam to me at all
21:46:27 <alise> may simply be crap
21:46:38 <alise> ais523: .xap is a zip
21:46:41 <ais523> alise: I know
21:46:44 <ais523> I unzipped it
21:46:59 <ais523> the .dll is the only thing there that looks plausible to contain the code
21:47:20 <oerjan> based on esolang wiki experience, if ais523 isn't sure what something is, it is probably clearly spam >:)
21:47:29 <ais523> oerjan: I'm installing a .NET disassembler atm
21:49:27 <oerjan> ais523: i find that most of the slightly doubtful cases of esolang wiki spam are easily resolved by googling part of the text. there is usually enough similar spam to make it obvious.
21:49:43 <alise> ais523: remind me never to go into a software maintenance job
21:50:04 <ais523> namespace INTERCAL { interface private auto ansi abstract IIntercalStatement { public virtual hidebysig newslot abstract instance default void Do (class INTERCAL.IntercalProgram program) cil managed; }}
21:50:05 <alise> I'm helping a friend-of-a-friend with their mergesort homework and stunningly cannot find the error
21:50:14 <ais523> well, that certainly looks enterprisey
21:50:33 <ais523> although I suspect the disassembler's put in the defaults for every possible keyword .NET supports
21:51:11 <ais523> let me try to find the actual /code/...
21:52:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:52:12 <Vorpal> <ais523> namespace INTERCAL { interface private auto ansi abstract IIntercalStatement { public virtual hidebysig newslot abstract instance default void Do (class INTERCAL.IntercalProgram program) cil managed; }} <-- wat
21:52:23 <Vorpal> who is doing .NET with intercal?
21:52:33 <ais523> aha, it's "genuine" but implements only a subset
21:52:46 <ais523> to be precise, array dimension, assign literal, text output, end program
21:52:53 <ais523> so it'll run a hello world correctly, but nothing more complicated
21:53:02 <ais523> Vorpal: http://twitter.com/UberGeekGames/status/22546729564
21:53:15 <Vorpal> hm
21:53:57 <Vorpal> hm
21:54:10 <Vorpal> ais523, where is the code?
21:54:17 <ais523> there isn't, I disassembled the binary
21:54:22 <Vorpal> ais523, so closed source?
21:54:29 <ais523> yep
21:54:35 <Vorpal> who the fuck would make a closed source intercal implementation
21:54:43 <ais523> it was possibly by mistake
21:54:44 <Vorpal> it's so.... pointless
21:54:57 <ais523> it's Windows dev, after all, people are used to releasing binaries rather than source there
21:55:17 <ais523> also, perhaps they didn't want people to figure out that it wasn't a full impl
21:55:45 <ais523> I also can't find anything that resembles a parser there, but the disassembler did segfault...
21:56:20 <Vorpal> heh
21:56:50 <Vorpal> just saying it is an early version would be enough?
21:57:53 <ais523> well, most early versions haven't had all the commands implemented
21:58:10 <ais523> but I don't see how you can get away with calling it INTERCAL with such a small subset
21:58:20 <ais523> perhaps he was counting on his audience not being able to test anything but hello-worlds
21:58:41 <Vorpal> heh
22:00:42 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
22:01:17 <Vorpal> <alise> I'm helping a friend-of-a-friend with their mergesort homework and stunningly cannot find the error <-- is it buggy though?
22:01:56 <alise> Vorpal: yes
22:02:09 <alise> it's also java and mutates in-place, so my brain has segfaulted from the start
22:02:10 <Vorpal> alise, in what way? out of bounds access? mis-sort?
22:02:13 <Vorpal> ah
22:02:14 <alise> Vorpal: mis-sort
22:02:17 <Vorpal> hm
22:02:21 <alise> it seems to sort things properly but then mysteriously merges them wrong
22:02:33 <Vorpal> alise, could be off by one error maybe? Or mixing up something like < and =<
22:02:47 <alise> i don't think so, but the indexing is a bit screwy
22:02:49 <ais523> <strings> C:\Users\Ian\documents\visual studio 2010\Projects\INTERCAL\INTERCAL\INTERCAL\obj\Windows Phone\Release\INTERCAL.pdb
22:02:58 <ais523> it's always fun when that happens
22:03:02 <alise> also it uses Float.MAX_VALUE to indicate end of array in some way which is just confusing
22:03:11 <Vorpal> ais523, when what happens?
22:03:16 <alise> ais523: strings is a crazy program :)
22:03:18 <ais523> funnier is gprolog, which lets you get the list of all strings used in the program via reflection
22:03:28 <ais523> and it contains the path that was used to compile it, too
22:03:59 -!- augur has joined.
22:04:07 <ais523> strings proves it's not a full implementation, pretty much
22:04:07 <alise> ais523: I always thought strings extracted, like, actual strings using the actual executable format.
22:04:08 <Vorpal> ais523, hm in erlang you can call <any-module>:module_info/1, it tends to contain path of source file for the standard distribution.
22:04:16 <alise> ais523: HOW WRONG I WAS
22:04:25 <Vorpal> which is iirc some rather screwy nfs-looking path
22:04:31 <ais523> it lists IntercalStatement_{AssignVariable,AssignArray,DefineArray,ReadOut,GiveUp}
22:04:46 <ais523> so either Ian changed his naming scheme halfway through the program, or only implemented five commands
22:04:58 <ais523> alise: strangely, I guessed/knew what it did right from the start
22:05:04 <Vorpal> alise, anyway, for any language that does array indexing in a way similar to C, and the function is operating on arrays: suspect off by one errors
22:05:21 <alise> ais523: maybe he just IntercalStatement_GaveUp
22:05:24 <Vorpal> I find that off by one errors is by far the most common bug in C code that I written
22:05:28 <alise> now oerjan is after me!
22:05:33 * alise runs for the border
22:05:41 <alise> Vorpal: yeah but sh'e
22:05:45 <alise> *she's tweaked the indices tons
22:05:48 <alise> to no effect
22:05:57 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, there aren't any borders to run to.
22:05:59 <alise> off by one errors are awful, though :)
22:06:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I'M ESCAPING TO #UBUNTU
22:06:12 <alise> You can't find anybody in THAT haystack!
22:06:14 <Vorpal> alise, yeah especially when you have multiple ones
22:06:28 <Vorpal> alise, then tweaking may give "seemingly" inconsistent results
22:06:33 <alise> yeah
22:06:36 * oerjan lifts the border so alise trips over it
22:06:39 <Vorpal> alise, hm... single step the code in the merging step?
22:06:43 <Vorpal> alise, if java has such
22:06:45 <alise> i hate debugging :(
22:06:52 <alise> Vorpal: it probably does, but i'm way too lazy to go in-depth like that
22:07:03 <Vorpal> alise, gdb is actually pretty good. No clue what you use for java though
22:07:11 <Sgeo> I think I like debugging more than writing code in the first place :/
22:07:13 <alise> i've just recommended she translate some pseudocode to java and forget the old version ever existed
22:07:19 <alise> Sgeo: that is bad bad bad.
22:07:41 <Vorpal> alise, Unless it is a segfault, or not related to arrays, I tend to debug with valgrind first for C code, and only then with gdb
22:07:48 <Vorpal> that tends to help
22:08:15 <Gregor> When using or writing a GC, valgrind is hyper-useless.
22:08:16 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, well, it'll give him a head start in the soulless maintenance drudge that is professional coding.
22:08:19 <Gregor> Whereas gdb is just useless.
22:08:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: HOORAY
22:08:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, *someone* has to do it.
22:08:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: also: HA your opinions have completely transformed into mine
22:08:42 <alise> assimilation successful
22:08:52 <Phantom_Hoover> But I knew that ages ago...
22:09:11 <Sgeo> You know, I've always liked being in a niche
22:09:17 <Sgeo> Maybe I should be a researcher of some sort
22:09:30 <oerjan> WE ARE THE HIRD. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.
22:09:45 <Vorpal> <Gregor> When using or writing a GC, valgrind is hyper-useless. <-- yes
22:09:52 <alise> Sgeo: If you like fixing more than creating... research probably isn't for you.
22:10:03 <Vorpal> Gregor, well not exactly
22:10:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, researching awful code
22:10:10 <Vorpal> Gregor, it can still find "use of undefined value"
22:10:17 <Vorpal> Gregor, just not any memory leaks
22:10:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I can see a fruitful career in psychology for you.
22:10:59 <Vorpal> <oerjan> WE ARE THE HIRD. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. <-- err? Is this a pun on "ehird"?
22:11:26 <Phantom_Hoover> "Subject A's code clearly shows psychopathic tendencies, as demonstrated by his use of GNU brace style and his UI's persistent admonitions for users to 'end their worthless lives'."
22:11:49 <Vorpal> heh
22:11:59 <pikhq> Hrm. Apparently HTML5 does not actually say that ISO-8859-1 == Windows-1252 for the purposes of HTML5.
22:12:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that could be dangerous to the researcher
22:12:10 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that sounds like a slightly customized version of Emacs
22:12:14 * Sgeo tends to use GNU brace style :/
22:12:19 <ais523> why?
22:12:22 <Vorpal> what
22:12:32 <ais523> I thought GNU brace style was the only brace style with no advocates at al
22:12:34 <ais523> *all
22:12:39 <Vorpal> ais523, um, what about RMS?
22:12:41 <Sgeo> Sort of acquired that style from the LSL Hello World
22:12:41 <pikhq> It instead says that clients should treat ISO-8859-1 as Windows-1252 for compatibility, but that any change of semantics resulting from this interpretation is a parse error.
22:12:43 <Sgeo> >.>
22:12:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Experiment log 1/10/10: Received code sample from Subject B.
22:12:51 <Vorpal> ais523, he presumably advocates it?
22:13:00 <ais523> he advocates free software, not brace styles
22:13:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Attempted to run; blacked out.
22:13:12 <Vorpal> ais523, I tend to use a style similar to the linux kernel brace style
22:13:23 <Sgeo> Oh wait, I don't
22:13:30 <Vorpal> *phew*
22:13:31 <Sgeo> I misread the code sample on Wikipedia
22:13:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Upon recovery, blood was smeared upon the desk in vaguely familiar patterns.
22:13:46 <pikhq> And so HTML5 is merely resorting to defined behavior where, say, C, would allow the compiler to launch ze missiles.
22:13:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Blood tests confirmed blood as own.
22:14:01 <alise> <Vorpal> <oerjan> WE ARE THE HIRD. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. <-- err? Is this a pun on "ehird"? ;; ITT: Borg
22:14:16 <Sgeo> Allman style
22:14:16 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> "Subject A's code clearly shows psychopathic tendencies, as demonstrated by his use of GNU brace style and his UI's persistent admonitions for users to 'end their worthless lives'."
22:14:19 <alise> "Primarily the brace style."
22:14:19 <Vorpal> alise, a combination of those obviously :P
22:14:26 <Vorpal> alise, the borg pun was obvious
22:14:30 <alise> <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that sounds like a slightly customized version of Emacs ;; encourage-user-suicide-mode
22:14:30 <Vorpal> the hird one, not so much
22:14:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Experiment log 2/10/10: tried analysing code in debugger.
22:15:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Blacked out again. Core file left in working directory. Will investigate later.
22:15:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Looking through core — MY GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE
22:15:46 <Phantom_Hoover> RUN YOU FOOLS RUN
22:15:57 <Phantom_Hoover> OH, THAT RHYMED.
22:16:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, my days are timed.
22:16:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, this is starting to look like a parody of that wiki pretending to be a secret govt thingy. Forgot the name of it
22:16:14 <Phantom_Hoover> The SCP Foundation?
22:16:21 <Vorpal> ah yes that
22:16:33 <Phantom_Hoover> That was the general style I was aiming at.
22:16:34 <Sgeo> <3 the SCP Foundation
22:16:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah
22:16:39 <Vorpal> Sgeo, we know
22:17:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Contents of core file 011010.core: [DATA EXPUNGED]
22:17:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Image of blood patterns created after execution: [IMAGE EXPUNGED]
22:18:13 <Vorpal> hah
22:19:23 <alise> Ran mival.exe. Saw structures of great #####, with crawling, demonic #######s whose noises deafened me. I became as if it. [Note: This file was found on Dr. A. Britki's computer after incident 4093-1A9.]
22:19:28 <alise> As if it!
22:19:39 <Vorpal> hm trying to do binary search on -O0 plus a handful of flags
22:19:43 <Vorpal> to find out what is failing
22:19:51 <Vorpal> now time to test -O0 -fmerge-constants
22:19:55 <Vorpal> no way that should fail
22:20:15 <Vorpal> if it does, this is a sad day for computing
22:21:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Attempted to compile ravana.c. Compiler failed with error ####. Reran with flag -####. My god, it's full of ####.
22:21:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, :P
22:21:21 <ais523> GCC actually has a -### flag
22:21:25 <Vorpal> indeed
22:21:34 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure where that naming comes from
22:21:34 -!- impomatic has left (?).
22:21:38 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, ah, but does it have a -#### flag
22:21:43 <Phantom_Hoover> No?
22:21:45 <ais523> I don't think so
22:21:49 <Vorpal> btw it failed with -O0 -fmerge-constants -fdce -fdse, it works with -O0
22:21:51 <Phantom_Hoover> That's because it's the Forbidden Flag.
22:21:52 <Vorpal> so um
22:22:27 <Phantom_Hoover> It's one of the reasons that no compilers are fully C99 compliant.
22:22:32 <alise> Challenge: Watch every single Sesame Street episode ever. Note: This is almost 29 years worth of video, without breaks or sleep.
22:22:44 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
22:22:46 <alise> Wait.
22:22:47 <alise> No it isn't.
22:22:50 <alise> 60 hours != 1 hour!
22:22:55 <alise> It's actually just almost half a year.
22:22:59 <alise> Which is still pretty damn impressive.
22:23:16 <sebbu> alise, try to watch sazae-san
22:23:35 <alise> ouch
22:23:39 <alise> sebbu: i think i'll pass :D
22:23:42 <sebbu> got at least one episode per week, since 1970 i think
22:23:45 <ais523> what about watching them all simultaneously
22:23:50 <alise> episodes: 6345+
22:23:53 <ais523> Vorpal: are any of the optimisations there unsafe?
22:23:54 <alise> emphasis on the +...
22:24:01 <ais523> -fmerge-constants is safe in theory, but often abused in practice
22:24:09 <Vorpal> <alise> 60 hours != 1 hour! <-- breaking news: Scientists recently discovered that 60 hours was not the same as one hour, as previously thought. This has thus discredited the theory of the 61 hour cyclic modulo universe.
22:24:22 <alise> ais523: I read a comment on reddit saying that the "Play All" option on an Aqua Teen Hunger Force DVD literally divided the screen into the number of episodes and played them all simultaneously./
22:24:27 <alise> s/\/$//
22:24:34 <ais523> alise: that's hilarious
22:24:40 <ais523> although, presumably it would only be 4 or so
22:24:41 <Vorpal> ais523, I don't know
22:25:41 <Vorpal> ais523, and dce and dse should both be same, dead code and dead subexpression iirc (don't have man page up atm)
22:25:45 <Phantom_Hoover> The -#### flag is to C compilers as the Bôites Diabolique is to synthesisers, really.
22:25:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "Bôites Diabolique"?
22:26:05 <Vorpal> ARGH
22:26:11 <Vorpal> it segfauls
22:26:14 <Vorpal> segfaults*
22:26:25 <alise> Vorpal: The forbidden notes.
22:26:29 * Vorpal remove -fmerge-constant just to ensure nothing else changed so that sill doesn't work
22:26:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, you're a pianist. Explain to Vorpal
22:26:45 <Vorpal> alise, oh those
22:26:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, two Look Around You references in a day. That has to be, like, a record.
22:26:51 <Vorpal> alise, saw some joke about them once
22:27:01 <Vorpal> on youtube iirc
22:27:05 <alise> Hey now little mouse / ...
22:27:08 <alise> THREE!
22:27:13 <alise> Two from the same episode at that.
22:27:21 <Phantom_Hoover> *Boîte Diabolique
22:27:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Bloody French.
22:27:36 <Vorpal> which was the first reference?
22:27:44 <Gregor> Vorpal: It's a lot of fun. You should learn to play it on the pan flute.
22:27:47 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Good enough?
22:28:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, you could always research the applications of the Besselheim Plate to debugging.
22:28:05 <alise> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5cWWV0KNDg#t=5m42s
22:28:10 <alise> Vorpal: Probably this.
22:28:11 -!- Harpyon has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:28:14 <alise> 5:42 timestamp is relevant.
22:28:18 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Ohwait, I thought you were referring to a different Diabolique ...
22:28:25 <alise> Gregor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5cWWV0KNDg#t=5m42s
22:28:27 <Vorpal> alise, you forgot youtube-dl
22:28:33 <alise> Vorpal: Which is why I mentioned the timestamp.
22:28:37 <Vorpal> right
22:28:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, it's the locked box at the upper end of a piano containing the 19 forbidden notes.
22:29:07 <alise> Is it 19?
22:29:13 <alise> It doesn't look like that many to me.
22:29:36 * alise listens to Little Mouse
22:29:48 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, the Boîte Diabolique defies your uneducated counting.
22:30:05 <Phantom_Hoover> You obviously haven't studied Look Around You — Maths in enough detail.
22:30:21 <alise> Hey now little mouse! / I hope we understand one another.
22:30:24 <alise> Truly inspirational lyrics.
22:30:34 * Phantom_Hoover is still trying to work out how to get one of his science teachers to play Look Around You in a lesson.
22:30:45 <Phantom_Hoover> And then see how long it takes them to figure it out.
22:30:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: A few friends of mine have had it played to them without even asking.
22:30:57 <alise> Of course, that was by cool teachers.
22:31:03 <alise> Apparently most students Did Not Get The Joke.
22:31:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Shh!
22:31:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm plotting!
22:32:06 <Phantom_Hoover> "'Cause I like you my friend, I respect you my friend, I'll encourage you my friend, through and throoouuugh..."
22:32:46 <oerjan> Vorpal: hird is vaguely similar to borg in syllable structure. also it's an archaic military collective noun in norwegian.
22:33:08 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, what's your opinion on lab pistol regulation?
22:33:15 <Gregor> It's also part of the recursive expansion of Hurd.
22:33:31 <Vorpal> oerjan, hm
22:33:50 <alise> oerjan: Bokmål and Nynorsk; discuss.
22:33:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, it carries certain dangers, but is necessary for safe disposal of equipment and sulphagne test subjects.
22:34:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I *really* need to get some embossing tape and go nuts with it.
22:35:50 <alise> oerjan has had a sudden epileptic fit.
22:36:37 <oerjan> Vorpal: *59 hour
22:37:29 <Vorpal> what
22:37:32 <alise> oerjan: BAH
22:37:35 <Vorpal> now it segfaults at -O0 too
22:37:36 <Vorpal> um
22:38:07 <Vorpal> okay it segfaults at -O0 but not -O0 -g
22:38:09 <Vorpal> that's insane
22:38:11 <Vorpal> ais523, ^
22:38:30 <ais523> Vorpal: try messing about with -fomit-frame-pointer
22:38:36 <ais523> as debug info can alter that sometimes
22:38:55 <Vorpal> ais523, but neither -O0 nor -O0 -g has that on?
22:39:12 <ais523> are you sure?
22:39:22 <ais523> it may be being turned on elsewhere in the makefile
22:39:28 <ais523> you implied that the makefile was insane
22:39:34 <Vorpal> hm
22:39:42 <Vorpal> ais523, I checked it for such insaneness in this case
22:40:10 <Vorpal> ais523, also hm, I really need some optimisation since this program really benefits from it
22:40:28 <Vorpal> wait hm, the stuff affecting -g would affect -DNDEBUG
22:40:32 <ais523> even while debugging?
22:40:35 <Vorpal> so maybe
22:40:42 <Vorpal> ais523, well no, but for it to be usable!
22:40:46 <ais523> Vorpal: check for side-effects in asserts
22:40:50 <ais523> it's so easy to do that by mistake
22:40:54 <oerjan> also it's vaguely similar to "herd" (maybe cognates?)
22:40:55 <ais523> I did it a couple of weeks ago, but noticed
22:40:58 <Vorpal> ais523, indeed, but half the stuff is written in German
22:41:03 <Vorpal> and it is fairly large
22:41:17 <oerjan> alise: kva med nynorsk?
22:42:08 <alise> oerjan: I thought Bokmål/Nynorsk was a pretty heated topic in Norway and I wanted the lowdown from someone at least vaguely sane.
22:42:22 <alise> Unless that was a joke and was in Nynorsk or something, which is likely.
22:42:22 <Vorpal> ais523, while it compiles at -O0 I can listen to about 2 wesnoth songs, giving it about 7 minutes per compile
22:42:25 <Vorpal> so sigh
22:42:28 <oerjan> alise: it's not a heated topic among the vaguely sane, i should think
22:42:44 <alise> oerjan: what's the vaguely sane's obvious-answer?
22:42:48 <ais523> Vorpal: I like your measurement of duration
22:42:49 <oerjan> well it wasn't much of a joke
22:43:16 <alise> ais523: Just be happy he doesn't measure in symphonies.
22:43:17 <ais523> I'm actually writing a Wesnoth campaign for fun atm
22:43:37 <alise> "It took about 3 milisymphonies."
22:43:46 <alise> *millisymphonies
22:45:00 <oerjan> well there are a number of people who want to remove the obligatory teaching of the alternative language (mostly nynorsk) in school, and think it's sort of useless at least as a school subject
22:45:40 <ais523> are the languages different enough that children need to be taught them both to understand them both?
22:46:21 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:46:23 <pikhq> ais523: As far as I'm aware: not really.
22:46:26 <oerjan> not really. well some word choices can be different. but in norway you have to learn to understand different dialects anyhow.
22:46:45 <alise> oerjan: so bokmal is what everyone uses?
22:46:50 <ais523> I would ask whether they're more or less similar than English and Scottish, but you probably don't know Scottish
22:46:52 <alise> (excuse my not using the correct letter)
22:47:00 <pikhq> ais523: Bokmål & Nynorsk are essentially two different percieved normative standards of Scandinavian. :)
22:47:04 <alise> ais523: Scottish is just a dialect of English, unless you mean Scots...
22:47:05 <oerjan> otoh the really weird word choices are gradually dying out, i think.
22:47:17 <Sgeo> Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Firefox
22:47:22 <oerjan> alise: not everyone, but 90% or so.
22:47:25 <ais523> alise: the language "Auld Lang Syne" is written in
22:47:33 <alise> ais523: scots
22:47:34 <pikhq> ais523: That's Scots.
22:47:36 <ais523> ah, ok
22:47:40 <Sgeo> When I click a tab, I do NOT mean to close it
22:47:47 <ais523> it's pretty close to English, but some of the words are different, and some of the grammar
22:48:12 <alise> ais523: mutually intelligible, is the word
22:48:15 <oerjan> there is _one_ whole county which is nynorsk, the rest are either bokmål or split by municipality (which are mostly bokmål)
22:48:17 <alise> pikhq: what's that almost-English language?
22:48:19 <alise> that i mentioned once
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22:48:24 <alise> and you said it wouldn't make learning it harder?
22:48:32 <pikhq> alise: West Frysian?
22:48:36 <alise> oerjan: that sounds confusing :)
22:48:42 <alise> pikhq: yep
22:48:44 <pikhq> alise: The one that is essentially Middle English without the Latin?
22:48:51 <alise> hmm
22:48:52 <alise> maybe
22:48:55 <alise> i recall it being more similar
22:48:58 <pikhq> ais523: Scots has more to do with Middle English than Modern English, BTW.
22:49:12 <alise> also what's that thing explaining atoms written in english without germanic stuff or something like that?
22:49:17 <alise> i've forgotten the name
22:49:18 <ais523> Middle English is somewhat harder to read than Scots
22:49:22 <ais523> although still possible, more or less
22:49:30 <pikhq> alise: Middle English is very very close to English.
22:49:35 <ais523> it uses a leading y for past participles, which is really confusing if you don't know German
22:49:47 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah, that's because Scots has followed a few of the orthographic changes in English.
22:49:49 <alise> pikhq: yes, but the West Frysian Lord's Prayer isn't very intelligible to me
22:49:55 <alise> but it probably is that
22:50:02 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Frisian_language#Sample_Text
22:50:12 <pikhq> alise: Yes, that's because of the mostly-Germanic vocabulary.
22:50:23 <Vorpal> <ais523> Vorpal: I like your measurement of duration <-- mhm
22:50:34 <alise> <alise> also what's that thing explaining atoms written in english without germanic stuff or something like that?
22:50:34 <alise> <alise> i've forgotten the name
22:51:17 <Vorpal> ais523, but I ran out of wesnoth songs now. I would have to start repeating them
22:51:23 <alise> brb
22:51:24 <Vorpal> so I guess I need to move to something else
22:51:35 <ais523> oh, I often set them on a loop for an entire day or so
22:51:43 <Vorpal> ais523, I couldn't stand that :P
22:54:06 <pikhq> Also, Scots is in the midst of language attrition, and hence is starting to gain a lot of features of Standard English...
22:54:26 <oerjan> alise: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.language.artificial/msg/69250bac6c7cbaff
22:54:35 <Sgeo> WHY MUST ALL CORDS IN MY POSSESSION BREAK?
22:55:58 -!- cpressey has joined.
22:56:04 <Vorpal> cpressey, hi!
22:56:36 <cpressey> So I had this dream where I was evaluating a homebrew OS that was based on FreeDOS or something
22:56:45 -!- Harpyon has joined.
22:57:13 <cpressey> And it had something in it that emulated another OS, like a Commodore 64 or something (I know that's not an OS but this was a dream, right?)
22:57:31 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, had it been coded by a shoe with multiple personality disorder?
22:57:38 <Vorpal> cpressey, heh
22:57:45 <cpressey> And when you quit the OS (again, this was a dream), it popped up a message like those old shareware nag boxes
22:58:05 <Vorpal> haha
22:58:07 <cpressey> And part of this message was written by alise
22:58:33 <cpressey> And it was encouraging us to consider what it would be like if operating systems could emulate each other through successive fractal refinement of their semantics
22:58:57 <cpressey> That's all
22:59:34 <cpressey> Well, other than after reading that, in the dream, it was clear this was some open-source project that alise contributed to, and that it worked something like that, but in an unrefined way
22:59:48 <ais523> you had a dream that was internally consistent?
22:59:53 <ais523> it's rare for mine to be like that
22:59:57 <ais523> but while asleep, I don't notice the inconsistencies
23:00:21 <cpressey> ais523: well, parts of it were.
23:00:28 <ais523> either that, or I notice one which is comparatively minor compared to all the rest
23:00:30 <cpressey> mine do tend to be a mix
23:00:37 <ais523> and that instantly causes me to realise I'm asleep, and wake up
23:00:54 <ais523> I should really keep a set of maps near my bed, the most common side-effect is that I completely lose track of local geography
23:01:52 <Vorpal> <cpressey> And it was encouraging us to consider what it would be like if operating systems could emulate each other through successive fractal refinement of their semantics <-- wow, the mind boggles
23:02:29 <cpressey> Oh yeah, one more detail: this OS was called "Ancestor"
23:02:31 <Vorpal> ais523, heh...
23:02:40 <ais523> hey, did Wikipedia just go down?
23:02:44 <Vorpal> cpressey, hey this would make a good sci fi story
23:03:13 <Vorpal> ais523, works for me, but slow
23:03:13 <ais523> hmm, working again now
23:03:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I didn't notice.
23:03:58 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, how can one refine semantics with fractional dimension?
23:05:00 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: as Vorpal said, the mind boggles.
23:05:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Does fractional dimensions actually imply self-similartiy
23:05:26 <Phantom_Hoover> *similarity?
23:06:19 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: almost certainly not
23:06:22 <ais523> reminds me of some thoughts I was having on data types shorter than a bit
23:07:25 <Vorpal> cpressey, "Ancestor" is a good name for an OS. the "successive fractal refinement" sounds like a perfect technobabel to introduce AI. Just two things left: decide if the AI is good or bad (no one writes stories about AIs that are somewhere in between those extremes), and actually write the story
23:07:50 <oerjan> you should easily be able to get a fractal dimension from a splitting up in which you make every part _different_ in a recursive but non-repeating way, i think
23:08:21 * Phantom_Hoover tries to think what that could be.
23:08:55 <oerjan> say you split up as a triangle on the top, then as a square in one part, a pentagon in another, etc. etc...
23:09:11 <oerjan> i think that should work
23:10:27 <cpressey> oerjan: it seems to me i've seen or thought of that before (possibly as a logo program)
23:10:47 <cpressey> but not from the angle of "hey this is a fractal but isn't self-similar"
23:10:54 <ais523> here, here's a possible encoding for a trit that contains exactly one trit of data: 0: 01 preceded by any even number of 0; 1: 10 preceded by any even number of 0; 2: 11 preceded by any even number of 0
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23:11:17 <ais523> because there are multiple possible encodings for each value, you can use those as part of representing another value
23:11:47 <Vorpal> ais523, what?
23:11:52 <ais523> e.g. you can combine it with an encoding for a quint: 0 = 00, 1 = 01, 2 = 10, 3 = 11, 4 = use secondary encoding for previous trit
23:12:14 <Vorpal> ais523, isn't a trit just like base 3 iirc?
23:12:18 <ais523> and then the trit plus the quint together fit into 4 bits nicely, with a bit left over (which is managed using the tertiary encoding for the trit)
23:12:25 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, but this is representing a trit using bits
23:12:38 <ais523> now, the crazy part that alise will love: remove the first bit from that encoding of a trit
23:12:46 <ais523> you now have something that equals one trit minus one bit
23:12:56 <ais523> which is less than a bit of data
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23:13:15 <ais523> (you have two possible values, 0 and 1; but they may inject more data into other parts of the program, depending on the context)
23:13:24 <Vorpal> ais523, ah
23:13:32 <ais523> so, say, you can add an extra bit and an extra quint, and /still/ fit it into four bits
23:13:40 <Vorpal> what
23:13:45 <ais523> which you couldn't do if you started with an actual bit
23:13:46 <Vorpal> ais523, this is quite absurd :D
23:13:49 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
23:14:12 <ais523> Huffman coding can be generalised based on a similar principle, and in the limit you get arithmetic coding
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23:19:02 <cpressey> ais523: ok, i'll be blunt. i have never understood why it always takes more than one bit to represent the information present in less than one bit
23:19:25 <ais523> cpressey: it takes more than one bit to /exploit/ that information
23:19:40 <ais523> if you have less than a bit of information, anything that encodes it must contain padding
23:19:47 <cpressey> well, "exploit", "observe", "make relevant"...
23:20:01 <ais523> so you encode that less-than-a-bit, and something else as well, and fit it into a smaller size than the bit + the something else
23:21:01 <Vorpal> to be blunt I have a trouble with "less than one bit of information"
23:21:54 <ais523> Vorpal: well, consider run-length encoding
23:21:55 <Vorpal> I guess imagining something with 0.5 logical states is just not possible
23:22:04 <Vorpal> ais523, yes I know how it works in compression
23:22:15 <Ilari> Vorpal: String of 0 or 1s where one can do better than coinflip to predict the next bit has less than 1 bit of information per bit.
23:22:22 <Vorpal> ais523, but I never imagine that as "half-bits" or such
23:22:27 <ais523> here's a simple one: count, value
23:22:34 <ais523> if you just get the count, and the count has a value of 1
23:22:39 <ais523> then the count contains less than a bit of info
23:22:43 <ais523> because you still need the count to know what the next bit is
23:22:45 <Vorpal> um
23:23:02 <ais523> *next byte
23:23:05 <ais523> *still need the value
23:23:07 <Vorpal> ah
23:23:22 <ais523> it contains only a very small amount of info, in that you know that the byte after is not the same as the next byte
23:23:34 <ais523> that's only a small fraction of a bit of info
23:23:53 <Vorpal> ais523, how large fraction?
23:23:58 <ais523> now, this is counterbalanced by the case that a count of, say, 200, would contain a lot more than a bit of info, if you assume the original to be randomly distributed
23:24:00 <Vorpal> 0.5? 0.2? something else?
23:24:01 <ais523> Vorpal: less than 1%
23:24:05 <ais523> of a bit
23:24:06 <Vorpal> ais523, how do you decide that
23:24:19 <Vorpal> ais523, I can't think of a sensible way to put a number to that
23:24:21 <ais523> because it allows you to encode 256 possibilities in something that only has 255 possible states
23:24:32 <Ilari> Like if you have string of n bits, where probability of 0 is 75% and probabilty of 1 is 25% and bits are independent, then on average you need about 0.8113n bits to reprent it (as n grows without bound).
23:24:35 <ais523> so it's log_2(256/255) bits
23:25:00 <Vorpal> ais523, eh
23:25:01 <Ilari> *represent
23:25:06 <ais523> 0.005646564 bits according to my calculator
23:25:20 <ais523> obviously, if your compression scheme does that a lot, it's not a very good compression scheme :)
23:27:13 <Vorpal> hm
23:27:34 <Vorpal> ais523, I still don't get "<ais523> because it allows you to encode 256 possibilities in something that only has 255 possible states"
23:27:52 <ais523> Vorpal: because you know that the next byte is not the same as the current one
23:27:57 <ais523> as otherwise the run count would have been more than 1
23:28:49 <Vorpal> ah
23:29:16 <Vorpal> ais523, still it is only less than a bit in the encoding scheme
23:29:22 <Vorpal> it is actually one physical bit
23:29:55 <Vorpal> well probably more if stored on a harddrive, what with their crazy RLL stuff (or whatever they use nowdays)
23:31:21 <cpressey> I guess you can think of it this way: divide the entire future into two halves: one if you see 0, the other if you see 1. Based on what you've seen so far, you might be able to rule out parts of the future, even if you can't cleanly divide it in half like that.
23:31:43 <cpressey> I was going to say "world" instead of "future" initially; either works, kind of.
23:31:46 <Vorpal> cpressey, mhm
23:32:14 * Vorpal splits it in technobabel interpretation of quantum physics
23:32:48 <cpressey> still, this is not quite the same lines as: struct foo { int bar:8; int baz:0.33; }
23:33:00 <Vorpal> cpressey, indeed not
23:33:05 <cpressey> or however C does bit-sizing of structurs
23:33:10 <cpressey> I haven't seen that in a long time
23:33:18 <Vorpal> cpressey, I think it does it that way
23:33:19 <Vorpal> but
23:33:29 <Vorpal> the meaning of that int baz:0.33; escapes me
23:33:40 -!- augur has changed nick to Zoidberg.
23:33:40 <Vorpal> C sensibly define it as compile time error presumably
23:33:49 -!- Zoidberg has changed nick to augur.
23:34:09 <Vorpal> cpressey, however, now define an esolang where something like "struct foo { int bar:8; int baz:0.33; }" would have a sensible meaning
23:34:15 <Vorpal> you must!
23:34:22 <cpressey> "I want to be able to store an integer between 0 and 0.33 here"
23:34:43 <Vorpal> cpressey, but "integer between 0 and 8" isn't what bar:8 means
23:34:44 <cpressey> SORRY
23:34:46 <cpressey> 2^0.33
23:34:53 <Vorpal> it means an integer of 8 bits
23:34:57 <Vorpal> cpressey, right
23:35:46 <Vorpal> cpressey, -1 presumably
23:36:04 <Vorpal> since 1 bit is not "between 0 and 2^1" (that would be 0,1,2)
23:36:13 <Vorpal> (assuming a closed range)
23:36:21 <Vorpal> s/range/interval(
23:36:28 <Vorpal> s/(/\//
23:37:00 <cpressey> ok
23:37:10 <cpressey> 2^(-0.67)
23:37:14 <Vorpal> ouch
23:37:18 <Vorpal> cpressey, no
23:37:23 <Vorpal> the -1 is outside the exponent
23:37:25 <Vorpal> in what I said
23:37:36 <cpressey> oh
23:37:39 <Vorpal> 8 bits: 2^8 = 256, 2^8-1 = 255
23:37:42 <Vorpal> not 2^7
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23:37:46 <cpressey> right
23:38:09 <Vorpal> cpressey, so .33 bits is a value between 0 and 0.25701337452182837 (approx)
23:38:34 <Vorpal> cpressey, have fun assigning a sensible meaning to that
23:38:45 <Vorpal> cpressey, I look forward to seeing the results, but now I must sleep
23:38:48 <Vorpal> night →
23:38:57 <Vorpal> (wait
23:39:06 <Vorpal> actually it need not be sensible
23:39:13 <cpressey> ok
23:39:16 <Vorpal> as long as it is fun and actually works in the esolang
23:39:25 <Vorpal> well, you know what I mean)
23:39:29 <Vorpal> night really →
23:41:17 <Vorpal> cpressey, and um, more implementable than TURKEY BOMB
23:41:30 <Vorpal> (not saying it has to be easy, just not impossible)
23:41:37 <Vorpal> night really argh →
23:46:17 <cpressey> to say that it is impossible is a half-truth
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2010-10-02
00:10:10 <cpressey> struct z { int a:0.5; int b:0.5; }
00:10:26 <cpressey> it's fair to say I can store the integer 0, and no other integers, in a
00:10:29 <cpressey> ditto b
00:10:55 <cpressey> it's also fair to say I can store the integers 0 and 1 in z, by the rules of C
00:11:28 <cpressey> but casting seems like cheating
00:11:56 <cpressey> anyway, that's as close as i'm going to attempt atm
00:13:34 <GreaseMonkey> what i'm thinking is if you can store 6 values in a and 5 values in b then you should be able to store 30 values... you could somehow base it off that idea
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00:37:53 <myndzi\> what's this conversation about again?
00:37:56 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
00:38:12 <myndzi> sounds like something i'm somewhat familiar with, but i can't extract a summary from the scrollback easily :P
00:38:22 <alise> fractional bits of information
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00:38:45 <myndzi> well yeah, but i mean, you just decided to talk about that or there was some specific thing (encoding, problem, whatever) that kicked it off?
00:39:03 <alise> just talking about fractals
00:39:06 <myndzi> ah
00:39:07 <alise> which have fractional dimensions
00:39:25 <myndzi> i should tell you guys about my script to encode binary data in mirc control codes
00:39:27 <myndzi> ;)
00:39:42 <myndzi> it only grows the size by 272%
00:39:45 <alise> no :P
00:39:50 <myndzi> which is pretty good considering the previous incarnation was like 400% :P
00:39:59 <pikhq> Why not just base64 it?
00:40:04 <myndzi> because that's visible
00:40:15 <myndzi> the point is to encode data but not clutter the screen with said data
00:40:23 <myndzi> (since the control codes are non printing characters)
00:40:23 <alise> myndzi: wouldn't work here alas, lame +c ;)
00:40:28 <myndzi> indeed
00:40:33 <pikhq> My system will display control codes.
00:40:34 <myndzi> how i hate that mode
00:40:35 <myndzi> ;)
00:40:41 <myndzi> pikhq: i'm sorry for your system
00:40:41 <myndzi> :P
00:41:03 <myndzi> anyway, it's the encoding that's interesting not its use (i haven't really made use of it since i never finished the script it was intended for)
00:41:05 <alise> pikhq: not mirc control codes
00:41:06 <alise> colours etc.
00:41:13 <pikhq> alise: Aaah.
00:41:18 <myndzi> maybe i should have said formatting codes
00:41:23 <pikhq> myndzi: Are mIRC control codes using the 8th bit of the 7-bit ASCII?
00:41:26 <myndzi> control was a poorly chosen word
00:41:30 <myndzi> nope
00:41:32 <myndzi> they are all <32
00:41:58 <myndzi> incidentally, that pesky 8th bit gives some fun results on misconfigured linux clients when used in conjunction with unicode ;)
00:42:09 <alise> invert/italics is tab, fun fun
00:42:20 <myndzi> some irc clients will pass the utf-8 data as-is but you can hide C2 control codes in valid UTF-8 values
00:42:23 <pikhq> My system will render many of those using inverse-color and the ^F^O^O notation, IIRC.
00:42:37 <myndzi> reverse (invert?) is 22
00:42:43 <myndzi> italics is new, but i thought it was not 9
00:42:53 <alise> hmm
00:42:53 <myndzi> anyway i'm not using mirc 7 yet so i don't have it included in my encoding
00:42:55 <alise> well ^I is something
00:42:58 <alise> konversation thinks it's italics
00:43:02 <alise> which causes ais523 no end of trouble
00:43:07 <myndzi> ^i is tab
00:43:14 <myndzi> on mirc 6.5 at least
00:43:14 <alise> yes
00:43:17 <alise> but at least one client thinks it's italics
00:43:21 <myndzi> mirc isn't the only client to implement its own stuff
00:43:30 <alise> true.
00:43:32 <myndzi> virc(?) has rgb color codes
00:43:39 <pikhq> That said, using control codes is pretty silly in general.
00:43:39 <myndzi> maybe xircon, i forget which
00:43:49 <myndzi> well, yeah, but they can come in useful sometimes i guess
00:44:01 <pikhq> And evil if it's XON or XOFF. :P
00:44:02 <myndzi> my rule of thumb is to avoid them in "public"
00:44:23 <myndzi> not as evil as sending telnet codes that do fun things to people using telnet :)
00:44:41 <myndzi> or using my utf-8 trick to issue arbitrary ansi codes to someone's terminal
00:44:41 <myndzi> hehe
00:44:53 <myndzi> anyway, what i WAS talking about was my encoding
00:45:06 <myndzi> originally i just took the easy way out and used ^kN,NN or ^kNN
00:45:12 <myndzi> for 3-digit decimal or 2-digit decimal values
00:45:18 <myndzi> this is obviously not very efficient
00:45:19 <pikhq> My rule of thumb is that all text on the Internet should be valid UTF-8, and normalised using NFC.
00:45:28 <zzo38> myndzi: See if that trick works on my terminal, or if PuTTY will remove overlong encodings (if that is what you are doing?)
00:45:32 <zzo38> I don't know
00:45:49 <myndzi> zzo38: i'll look it up, lemme finish typing
00:46:01 <myndzi> for one, mirc has more than just ^k
00:46:18 <myndzi> and for another, ^k has like 7 valid distinct uses
00:46:36 <myndzi> i wound up creating a script to find how many permutations of valid color code sequences could be had from N bytes
00:46:44 <myndzi> color/formatting code, i mean
00:46:59 <zzo38> Normal ASCII escape codes will just be reformatted by PHIRC, though
00:47:09 <myndzi> one byte could be any of the single byte values, or you could have 2, 3, 4, 6, or 7 byte color codes
00:47:35 <myndzi> i did that wrong... 2, 3, 5, 6
00:47:40 <zzo38> Also my client deliberately does not parse IRC color codes
00:47:41 <myndzi> anyway
00:47:59 <myndzi> then i found one that came close to a similar amount of values as a binary bit border
00:48:11 <myndzi> and learned that i could get an extra bit if i used it twice
00:48:25 <pikhq> zzo38: Reasonable decision, actually.
00:48:30 <myndzi> so it's pretty close to in synch with binary, would take a lot of extra work to approach the limit which isn't much less than 272%
00:48:43 <myndzi> so now the values depend on the codes, as well as the pattern of their ordering
00:48:55 <myndzi> it's pretty neat :)
00:49:00 <myndzi> ok, the utf-8 thing
00:49:24 <zzo38> (It just displays color codes using the notation it normally uses for control characters, which is uppercase letter, black on magenta background)
00:49:56 <myndzi> it's C1 not C2, silly me
00:49:58 <zzo38> It will parse some control codes used commonly on IRC, though, if /SET FORMAT +
00:50:12 <myndzi> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C0_and_C1_control_codes#C1_.28ISO_8859_and_Unicode.29
00:50:21 <zzo38> I don't know whether C1 control codes are enabled in PuTTY
00:50:22 <myndzi> any of those can be embedded as the second byte of a utf-8 sequence
00:50:31 <zzo38> Or, if there is a way to turn them off
00:50:37 <myndzi> most irc clients screen out terminal codes but they let this one pass because they see it as valid utf-8
00:50:53 <myndzi> that's what linux foos get for bitching about people fucking up their screen... eventually i get curious and find what happened and then they get exploited ;)
00:52:00 <myndzi> so i guess 155 is the ansi code thing
00:52:10 <myndzi> 194 155 followed by an ansi sequence should do it
00:52:46 <zzo38> Is there a mode to disable C1 escape codes?
00:52:50 <myndzi> ›30;40m black on black(?)
00:52:56 <zzo38> (PHIRC doesn't actually know anything about UTF-8)
00:53:02 <myndzi> dunno, guess it would depend on your terminal configuration
00:53:08 <pikhq> zzo38: Well, you could normalise your Unicode.
00:53:12 <myndzi> then you should be fine, since it'll only see the C1 code and block it
00:53:45 <zzo38> myndzi: That did not change the color. I can see a block followed by "30;40m" and the text
00:53:57 <myndzi> yeah
00:53:59 <zzo38> So I can see it is fine
00:54:06 <pikhq> myndzi: ^[30;40m
00:54:08 <myndzi> i might have done it wrong, i kinda f orget
00:54:18 <myndzi> but anyway, that symbol is not the same as ctrl+[
00:54:22 <pikhq> Weird.
00:54:38 <myndzi> it is a C1 code that can also be used to introduce ansi codes
00:54:39 <zzo38> You normally do escape and a left square bracket, that is the CSI code
00:54:49 <myndzi> i successfully spoofed my nick to a vulnerable client while testing once
00:54:51 <zzo38> In C1 though, CSI code is a single character
00:54:59 <myndzi> yeah
00:55:39 <myndzi> i always wondered why it was esc then [ when i was a kid
00:55:42 <pikhq> Moral of the story: actually parse your damned text right. :P
00:55:45 <myndzi> but now i know it is because esc is ctrl+[
00:55:54 <myndzi> pikhq: well that's the thing, the irc client IS parsing the text correctly
00:55:58 <myndzi> but
00:56:15 <myndzi> the irc client thinks the terminal can display utf-8
00:56:21 <myndzi> when the terminal actually cannot or is not configured to
00:57:18 <pikhq> myndzi: (Esc+[)3 is... not a valid UTF-8 sequence.
00:57:49 <myndzi> that's not what i sent
00:57:57 <myndzi> i sent 194 155, which is valid utf-8
00:58:10 <myndzi> but 155 is also C1 for CSI introducer
00:58:15 <pikhq> Ah, yeah. It is.
00:58:40 <myndzi> reminds me sorta of another fun bug i found once
00:58:44 <zzo38> It is up to the terminal program to parse UTF-8 codes (or whatever other encoding it is configured to use), so if a malformed UTF-8 code is sent with a ASCII control character immediately after a UTF-8 begin code, PHIRC will convert it to escape codes before the terminal sees it
00:58:55 <myndzi> certain versions of psybnc were vulnerable to a weird thing that let you basically spoof messages from the irc server
00:59:32 <myndzi> zzo38: ...wat?
00:59:50 <myndzi> that seems like undesirable behavior; i mean, it is a legit utf-8 code and should not be interpreted as a control code
00:59:51 <zzo38> You tried C1 codes, now try sending an overlong encoding of the C0 escape codes, to see if this program will block it.
01:00:13 <myndzi> i don't know what you are referring to by that
01:00:21 <pikhq> myndzi: What's the actual Unicode code point for that combination?
01:00:37 <myndzi> it might be undefined haha, i don't know, but it still shouldn't be taken to be an escape code
01:00:38 <zzo38> myndzi: But multi-byte UTF-8 codes never contain 7-bit ASCII codes.
01:00:51 <pikhq> myndzi: Unicode code point: the number it decodes to.
01:00:55 <myndzi> it's not 7-bit ascii
01:00:57 <zzo38> The high bit is set to indicate it is a UTF-8 code.
01:00:59 <myndzi> oh
01:01:01 <myndzi> it would be umm
01:01:17 <pikhq> Doesn't matter if it's not assigned. :)
01:01:37 <myndzi> 10011011
01:01:43 <myndzi> it actually decodes to 155
01:01:50 <pikhq> U+155?
01:01:59 <myndzi> guess so
01:02:20 <myndzi> i don't know if it was important that it do so anymore
01:02:37 <pikhq> Erm, no; the Unicode code points are usually listed in hex. Anyways.
01:02:50 <zzo38> (Sometimes a null character is encoded using overlong encoding so that you can have embedded nulls in a string that is used in a program that uses null terminated strings)
01:04:02 <pikhq> That's U+9B. "CONTROL SEQUENCE INTRODUCER".
01:04:43 <myndzi> oh, right
01:04:46 <myndzi> sorry :P
01:04:48 <pikhq> So: the client should *probably* be removing that anyways.
01:04:59 <myndzi> i didn't know that it actually encoded to that value haha
01:05:10 <myndzi> but i guess you could change it to whatever you wanted
01:05:15 <myndzi> by mangling the first few bits
01:05:19 <myndzi> the first byte could be many things
01:05:23 <pikhq> Apparently, 0x00 through 0xFF are from Latin-1.
01:05:36 <myndzi> makes sense
01:05:42 <myndzi> i think i knew that, actually
01:05:56 <myndzi> i'm not sure why i chose 194, maybe i forgot what the bug was about
01:06:03 <myndzi> it could be that the client was just decoding it and not blocking it
01:06:32 <myndzi> zzo38: i see... sorta. by overlong, you mean a utf-8 value that doesn't need 3 bytes but uses 3, for example?
01:06:47 <myndzi> like
01:06:51 <myndzi> 11000000 10000000
01:07:17 <myndzi> <-null?
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01:07:24 <myndzi> it didn't decode here haha
01:08:21 <pikhq> Got rendered as though it were Latin-1 here.
01:08:34 <pikhq> (typical for handling invalid UTF-8)
01:18:08 <myndzi> same
01:44:13 <zzo38> I just got a shaded block, it is what this program does for invalid codes, I think
01:44:36 <zzo38> myndzi: Yes that is what I mean by overlong encodings
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02:27:26 <Sgeo> Hmm
02:27:37 <Sgeo> On the one hand, the system didn't just roll over and give me someone else's grades
02:28:07 <Sgeo> On the other hand, it did display an error message with a stack trace, and my understanding is that that's the wrong way to configure web services
02:42:17 <alise> Axioms!
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02:47:55 <Sgeo> I don't know if this is accurate, but I just described Objective-C as a mashup of Smalltalk and C, and that the whole is less than the sum of its parts
02:48:04 * Sgeo just added "(Note: I never learned Objective-C, so that last thought is possibly unfounded)"
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02:53:36 <alise> Sgeo: objective-c is an alright language.
02:53:44 <alise> it's not creative but it's well-designed
02:53:53 <alise> and it inherits smalltalk's excellent object model
02:54:38 <Sgeo> TBH, I've kind of fallen in love with CLOS-style object models
02:54:48 * Sgeo prepares to be slapped
02:55:55 <alise> You have never fallen in love with anything.
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02:56:09 * oerjan swats Sgeo -----###
02:56:32 <alise> You make sideways glances at the cleavage of languages over the period of a few days. :P
02:59:43 <Gregor> *sidelong
03:02:27 <Sgeo> "Do you have any other interests besides programming?" "I like to read and watch fiction"
03:03:01 * Sgeo is in full-on giggle mode
03:03:07 <alise> It's funny because to me the word fiction means novels because I don't know what words mean
03:03:55 <Sgeo> No, I'm laughing because it's a very general statement that applies to pretty much everyone
03:04:40 <Sgeo> Well, not to illiterate persons before TV I guess
03:06:01 <pikhq> Sgeo: Then it's going to be s/read/listen to/
03:06:30 <pikhq> Plays used to be popular entertainment, you know. As well as story-telling.
03:10:43 <alise> pikhq: I just wish we had Hamlet on the TV every day. :P
03:12:07 <Sgeo> Um, WTF
03:13:27 <Sgeo> Why is webchat.freenode.net down?
03:14:40 <Gregor> Because you touch yourself at night.
03:15:30 * Sgeo feels sorry for anyone who won't allow themselves to
03:15:52 <Sgeo> <alise> STOP IT! STOP TURNING EVERYTHING SEXUAL
03:16:27 <alise> ...
03:16:27 <alise> dude
03:16:32 <alise> Gregor's joke is meant to be sexual
03:16:33 <alise> it's a cliche
03:16:37 <Sgeo> I know
03:16:39 <alise> you ... you just ... lose
03:16:49 <Sgeo> But last time Gregor said something like that, and I responded, you called me out
03:16:58 <pikhq> I ♥ clichés.
03:17:00 <pikhq> And Unicode.
03:17:08 <pikhq> Definitely ♥ Unicode.
03:17:34 <oerjan> I ? Unicode too *ducks*
03:17:53 <Sgeo> I ♥ the compose key
03:17:56 <Gregor> I ♥ diæresis marks and ligatures. I can never think of a word with a diæresis when I need one ...
03:18:05 <Sgeo>
03:18:24 <Sgeo> ...
03:18:32 <Sgeo> ………
03:18:42 <Sgeo> Good way to tell if you're using fixed-width or not
03:19:08 <pikhq> oerjan: Fix your encoding you fool.
03:19:20 <alise> pikhq: No! It is integral that oerjan sees Unicode as ?.
03:19:23 <alise> It is part of our culture.
03:19:24 <pikhq> Gregor: You naïve simpleton.
03:19:25 <Gregor> pikhq: Fix your sarcasm-detector you fool.
03:19:26 <alise> Our culture is a shabby one.
03:19:39 <alise> oerjan does actually see unicode as ?
03:19:51 <Gregor> pikhq: I can never think of a /contextuälly-relevant/ diæresis when I need one.
03:20:02 <pikhq> Gregor: ⁵
03:20:13 <alise> STOP USING DIAERESES ON WORDS THAT DON'T EITHER HAVE HYPHENS IN THEM OR ARE OFTEN WRITTEN WITH ONE
03:20:20 <alise> presumably pikhq was meaning that oerjan should fix the encoding he *sees*, not sends, and Gregor misinterpreted this
03:20:25 <alise> the more you know ****************=>
03:20:30 <alise> wait
03:20:33 <alise> ===========================*
03:20:34 <alise> there
03:20:49 <Sgeo> What a big-ass encyclopedia. What a big ass-encyclopedia. What a big assencyclopædia
03:21:20 <pikhq> What a bigassencyclopædia.
03:21:29 <Gregor> The Encyclopedia Copronomicon
03:22:05 <alise> *Coppro-nomicon
03:22:10 <Gregor> X-D
03:22:10 <alise> ...
03:22:13 <alise> Coppro-nomic-on
03:22:16 <alise> coppro plays nomic
03:22:19 <alise> OMG SONCPIRACY
03:22:22 <alise> ...
03:22:25 <alise> son c piracy
03:22:28 <alise> son coppro piracy
03:22:28 <Gregor> OMG SONGPIRACY
03:22:31 <alise> coppro is someone's son
03:22:36 <alise> coppro is a member of the pirate party
03:22:39 <Gregor> We don't know that.
03:22:42 <alise> OMG THE COINCIDENCES
03:22:49 <alise> ITS SO METAPHYSIC
03:23:02 <alise> Gregor: Yes... yes we do :P
03:23:42 <oerjan> through long and tortured logic
03:25:33 <alise> I wonder if Eliezer Yudkowsky writing fanfiction is somehow using my brain power as CPU for the seed AI he's designed.
03:25:40 <alise> *Yudkowsky's fanfiction
03:39:50 <Gregor> http://www.gnu.org/software/plotutils/ : GNU totally does not name things in intentionally ambiguous ways.
03:40:14 <pikhq> Groan.
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03:42:33 <alise> Plotu tils! Plo Tutils!
03:42:52 <augur> alise: Tutils of the Palestinian Liberation Organization?
03:42:56 <alise> Yes.
03:42:58 <augur> :o
03:43:04 <augur> IRA Tutils!
03:44:29 <oerjan> they're quite IRAte
03:46:17 <alise> IRA Tutus
03:51:58 <oerjan> don't mess with my tutus
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04:01:45 <Sgeo> Hmm, I only need to do one problem for this chapter
04:01:53 <Sgeo> One of the choices is knapsack stuff
04:01:57 <Sgeo> How hard could it be?
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04:02:58 <alise> NP?
04:03:04 <alise> (EVERYONE: DO NOT NITPICK JOKES)
04:03:15 <alise> ("HOW HARD" "NP" IS FUNNY, NO MATTER -- SO SHUT UP)
04:03:24 <alise> (DO NOT SAY "BUT NP-HARD")
04:04:01 <alise> Well, technically I made no errors anyway. A joke well-executed.
04:07:45 <zzo38> My idea of a way of UTF-8 parsing: [Step 1] Control characters [Step 2] Decode numbers [Step 3] Unicode to unicode conversion [Step 4] Render output
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04:08:49 <oerjan> alise: except for the error of a paranoid implosion?
04:09:55 <alise> oerjan: Implicatory! Verisimilitude was EXTINCT; by then, at least.
04:10:51 <oerjan> implicatorial sesquipedalism
04:14:32 <alise> oerjan: Well, aren't we the orthodontist! Stricken, quickly, he fell; his loquaciousness now evaporated, he graduated losing, summa cum laude, and expired.
04:16:38 * oerjan straightens alise's teeth with the saucepan ===\__/
04:18:37 <alise> oerjan: I created your being; post hoc ergo propter hoc axiomatic, fallacies embedded into the velvet that defines you, it; machinery whirrs and purrs and ASCII saucepans confers.
04:18:44 -!- alise has left (?).
04:18:46 -!- alise has joined.
04:18:47 <alise> Whoops.
04:20:44 <Sgeo> All homework done
04:21:15 * oerjan confers with his saucepan ===\__/ *OUCH*
04:22:29 <Gregor> Good thing about tex4ht: Makes fairly-nice HTML output from LaTeX.
04:22:42 <Gregor> Bad thing about tex4ht: Main developer is dead, last release was a few days before his death ...
04:24:22 <zzo38> Are there C compilers that cannot turn off trigraphs inside of a string? If there are some common ones, it might be necessary to add a option to Enhanced CWEB to tell it to change ? in a string to \? (and also to replace high characters with their escape sequence, if that might also be necessary)
04:26:56 <Gregor> Fecking trigraphs X_X
04:27:05 <Gregor> Most C compilers have the ability to turn off trigraphs /entirely/
04:28:44 <Gregor> (In GCC they're off unless you ask for them)
04:29:07 * Sgeo vaguely hopes he doesn't get in trouble for the ticket he just submitted
04:29:18 <Sgeo> "I recently received an error message. The cause isn't important (I was experimenting
04:29:18 <Sgeo> to see if I could do something I shouldn't be able to, but was unable to do it),..."
04:29:42 <Gregor> "I'm a white-hat hacker."
04:29:45 <Gregor> "He's a hacker, lock 'im up!"
04:29:46 <alise> <Gregor> Bad thing about tex4ht: Main developer is dead, last release was a few days before his death ...
04:29:51 <alise> ... and I still can't find anywhere to put the body.
04:30:44 <Sgeo> o.O
04:30:47 <Sgeo> How did he die?
04:30:52 <Gregor> Sgeo: Doesn't say.
04:31:01 <Gregor> Well, "unexpectedly"
04:31:12 <Gregor> How often does somebody young enough to be writing tex4ht die expectedly though :P
04:35:41 <alise> He died from latex poisoning.
04:35:48 * alise runs to #ubuntu ->
04:35:53 <alise> OERJAN CAN'T CATCH M--
04:37:30 <zzo38> If needed, you could create a TeX macro package that allows output to both DVI and HTML (and possibly also XML and other formats too if required)
04:42:32 <oerjan> u run thru #ubuntu
04:44:48 <Gregor> zzo38: Yes, that's what tex4ht is :P (AFAIK)
04:47:57 <zzo38> Gregor: I don't think so. (And I think tex4ht is designed for LaTeX, anyways) What I meant is writing a macro package that you use commands in it that can make it work for both DVI and HTML and other formats output.
04:50:58 <alise> Gregor: So if you don't use LaTeX, watch out!
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04:54:55 <pikhq> Ah, trigraphs. The only thing worse than digraphs.
04:55:21 <pikhq> Actually. Digraphs aren't *that* bad.
04:55:28 <pikhq> Trigraphs are just head-poundingly awful.
04:55:59 <zzo38> TeX trigraphs are very useful, even though C trigraphs are bad and useless.
04:56:22 <pikhq> C digraphs are handled during tokenization, unlike trigraphs.
04:56:26 <Gregor> The only thing worse and monographs.
04:56:28 <pikhq> Making them automatically an improvement.
04:56:52 <pikhq> (yes, trigraphs are basically done via sed before compilation)
04:56:59 <Gregor> s/and/are/ X_X
04:57:36 <Gregor> s/are/is/? Idonno, that whole sentence was grammatically dubious.
04:57:44 <Gregor> Also, nonsense.
04:58:08 <zzo38> Yes, I do suppose C digraphs are better than C trigraphs in that way.
04:58:59 <pikhq> Digraphs at least don't cause completely unexpected parses.
05:00:16 <zzo38> But TeX trigraphs are a bit different, because you can use them for many purposes and you can even change how trigraphs are parsed by changing the category codes.
05:03:12 <zzo38> For example, the utfeight.tex program will convert numbers to hex and then make them into trigraphs send to output file, and then input them again (this time TeX will parse the trigraphs), in order to make definitions for all active characters which can be used as part of UTF-8 codes.
05:06:16 <augur> lovely quote from wikipedia
05:06:20 <augur> "more realistically, CERN's Large Hadron Collider is the subject of a CERN-produced rap video"
05:06:46 <zzo38> I want to make a variant of TeX in one day when I get a chance to do so. What programs would I need to do so? One change I want to add is to make a new trigraph which forces the next character to be treated as a certain character code. For example ^^xd? will make a ? which is a active character.
05:07:51 <zzo38> Another change I want to make is removing the \outer command.
05:09:02 <zzo38> And adding new kind of definitions, such as \idef \progdef \catdef
05:09:23 <alise> augur: more realistic than what? :P
05:09:49 <augur> i dont know!
05:09:50 <alise> what does \outer do zzo38?
05:10:04 <augur> more realistic than Stephen Hawking MCing maybe
05:10:22 <zzo38> alise: The \outer command prevents a command from occuring as part of a macro expansion.
05:11:00 <zzo38> (It can be worked around using \write and \input although I think it is better that the \outer command is not there at all)
05:11:49 <zzo38> Another thing I want is to allow \long to be prepended to the use of a macro instead of only allowing it prepending a definition of a macro.
05:16:25 <Sgeo> GAHAHAHAHAH
05:16:30 <Sgeo> NEED SWAP SPACE
05:16:35 * Sgeo cries
05:18:18 <zzo38> And a way to read in a list, box, and tokens, in ways that they can then be processed by other TeX codes. And a command \glueset to access the glue set value of a box.
05:21:02 <alise> Goodnight. Bye.
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05:31:36 <zzo38> Such as: \convbox<hboxmacro><vboxmacro><charactermacro><gluemacro><penaltymacro><mathonmacro><mathoffmacro><kernmacro><the_box> or something like that.
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05:59:05 <zzo38> Trigraphs in TeX are even usable to create trigraphs, example: \message{^^5e^5e} --> ^
06:00:00 <zzo38> \message{^^5e^5e^21} --> !
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07:48:54 <coppro> Gregor: I am, in fact, a member of the pirate party
07:54:11 <zzo38> What do you have to do if you are a member?
07:54:23 <coppro> nothing
07:55:06 <zzo38> What is the meaning of being a member, then?
07:55:18 <coppro> though I think they're going to try to have me chair the online meetings on the basis that I seem to be good at this thin (they're not the online ones. The president of the math society at waterloo wanted me installed as speaker after she'd known me for a week and a half)
07:55:24 <coppro> to indicate support
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07:56:15 <zzo38> So maybe in future...?
07:57:01 <zzo38> coppro: O, did you ever read mathNEWS?
07:58:23 <coppro> zzo38: how do you know of mathNEWS?
07:59:15 <coppro> zzo38: also, being a member carries benefits that you might expect of any similar organization - I have a vote
07:59:19 <zzo38> I don't remember where/when I first figured out about it, or how.
07:59:47 <coppro> you've never been to UW?
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08:01:05 <zzo38> I have never been to UW.
08:01:46 <coppro> anyways, yes, I know of mathNEWS. I even wrote two articles in the most recent issue and contributed a significant portion of the profQUOTES
08:02:02 <zzo38> OK
08:04:13 <zzo38> What did you write about?
08:05:38 <zzo38> (Actually, I found a copy of the articles now and I think I know which one you might have written)
08:06:38 <coppro> which?
08:07:19 <coppro> also, lol someone who reads the website..
08:07:36 <coppro> I assume that you know then about the E is for Idiot issue?
08:08:15 <zzo38> Did you write the article titled "Reminder: Games Nights Exist"? (I guess based on the information I have)
08:08:37 <coppro> correct, that was one
08:08:58 <coppro> that one should also be obvious if you /whois me
08:09:30 <zzo38> Yes I did use the WHOIS command. I also saw "coppro!~scshunt" so I guess, and then did WHOIS to check more
08:11:27 <zzo38> I do not know about the E is for Idiot issue. What is the date for that issue?
08:14:15 <coppro> dunno
08:14:26 <coppro> in it there was an article entitled E is for Idiot, that got them sued
08:14:37 <coppro> because apparently it was defamatory
08:15:04 <coppro> they settled on posting an apology to their website, which they consider doing almost nothing because the website is not designed to be useful
08:15:12 <coppro> and so virtually no one reads it
08:16:15 <coppro> incidentally, pencil policy is hilariou
08:16:17 <coppro> *hilarious
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08:30:28 <zzo38> I have a question about your opinion about code generation in Enhanced CWEB using interpreted C codes. The question is what commands you would find useful to be built-in that can be accessed by C interpreter, for code generation?
08:31:24 <coppro> recompiling a specific function
08:32:17 <zzo38> Can you give an example?
08:32:54 <coppro> well, suppose I have a function and change its definition; it would be nice to tell the compiler to recompile it
08:33:01 <coppro> for simple functions, even from within the interpreter itself
08:36:29 <zzo38> I don't quite understand. Can you give a more specific example of what you are trying to do?
08:48:08 <zzo38> The C compiler does not work that way? Enhanced CWEB cannot change the way the C compiler works!
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10:07:54 <Phantom_Hoover> 15:25:06 <ais523> 0.005646564 bits according to my calculator ← does lambdabot not do logs?
10:08:02 <Phantom_Hoover> @type log
10:08:03 <lambdabot> forall a. (Floating a) => a -> a
10:08:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, um, anything wrong with using a calculator still?
10:09:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it requires that you reach for the calculator and hit buttons on that, then type the result into the channel.
10:09:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, he didn't say he meant a physical calculator. Could have been dc or such
10:10:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM.
10:10:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hah, well some other computer based calculator then
10:12:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you know that bc was traditionally implemented in dc?
10:12:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I do.
10:12:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and bc has log
10:12:32 <Vorpal> while I can't find it in dc
10:12:38 <Vorpal> this scares me
10:12:46 <Phantom_Hoover> As part of an extra library which IIRC is written in bc.
10:13:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, still, writing an infix calculator in bc is probably indicative of multiple things in DSM
10:13:45 <Vorpal> err
10:13:47 <Vorpal> "in dc"
10:13:49 <Vorpal> of course
10:14:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I doubt profoundly that bc was ever written in raw dc.
10:14:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what do you mean then
10:14:25 <Phantom_Hoover> dc doesn't have anything near the I/O capabilities.
10:15:05 <Vorpal> from wikipedia:
10:15:07 <Vorpal> As an example, here is an implementation of the Euclidean algorithm to find the GCD:
10:15:07 <Vorpal> dc -e '??[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+p' # shortest
10:15:07 <Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version
10:15:13 <Vorpal> XD
10:15:53 <Phantom_Hoover> ? doesn't read a line of input, it executes a line of input.
10:16:02 <Vorpal> hm
10:16:06 <Vorpal> it seems to work anyawy
10:16:08 <Vorpal> anyway*
10:16:20 <Phantom_Hoover> So if you have ?P it doesn't echo the line, it executes it and prints the top of the stack.
10:16:35 <Vorpal> it doesn't have ?P, it has P?
10:16:44 <Vorpal> but hm
10:16:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Same differene.
10:16:52 <Phantom_Hoover> *difference
10:17:29 <Vorpal> not at all, the P prints a prompt there
10:17:56 <Phantom_Hoover> The point is that dc doesn't actually have a command to read a line of input and push it onto the stack.
10:18:30 <Vorpal> hm okay
10:19:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Typing "Hello, world!" into ?P just spits out a load of errors.
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10:20:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Numbers push themselves when evaluated, so you can use it for them if you don't mind exposing your program to unbuffered code.
10:21:15 <Vorpal> hm
10:21:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I would think bc would use dc behind the scenes when calculating things, and do parsing and such in C.
10:22:20 * Phantom_Hoover → stuff
10:22:22 <Vorpal> or some other language
10:22:26 <Vorpal> such as shell
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15:02:24 <alise> 23:48:54 <coppro> Gregor: I am, in fact, a member of the pirate party
15:02:24 <alise> pretty sure he meant the male part
15:02:28 <alise> 23:54:11 <zzo38> What do you have to do if you are a member?
15:02:28 <alise> 23:54:23 <coppro> nothing
15:02:28 <alise> 23:55:06 <zzo38> What is the meaning of being a member, then?
15:02:28 <alise> lol
15:03:12 <alise> 23:59:47 <coppro> you've never been to UW?
15:03:12 <alise> i think he's in high school
15:04:11 <alise> coppro: this "mathNEWS" is hopelessly shoddy --
15:04:13 <alise> "Indeed, vi is nothing more than a wrapper script for the command ex, which is itself a wrapper for ed"
15:04:37 <cheater99> it is, though
15:04:43 <alise> no it isn't
15:04:45 <cheater99> so i'm not sure what u mean
15:04:53 <cheater99> OF COURSE IT IS
15:04:58 <cheater99> and ed is a wrapper for cat
15:04:59 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ ls -l $(which vi)
15:05:00 <alise> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 2010-09-12 03:11 /usr/bin/vi -> /etc/alternatives/vi
15:05:00 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ ls -l /etc/alternatives/vi
15:05:00 <alise> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 17 2010-09-12 03:11 /etc/alternatives/vi -> /usr/bin/vim.tiny
15:05:00 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ ls -l /usr/bin/vim.tiny
15:05:00 <alise> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 754744 2010-04-16 14:33 /usr/bin/vim.tiny
15:05:02 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ ls -l /usr/bin/ex
15:05:04 <alise> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 2010-09-12 03:11 /usr/bin/ex -> /etc/alternatives/ex
15:05:06 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ ls -l /etc/alternatives/ex
15:05:08 <alise> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 17 2010-09-12 03:11 /etc/alternatives/ex -> /usr/bin/vim.tiny
15:05:10 <alise> ex is a *symlink* to vi on most systems.
15:05:16 <alise> not a wrapper script. and not the other way around
15:05:19 <cheater99> yes
15:05:22 <cheater99> that's because they did
15:05:24 <alise> and furthermore ex is an entirely separate editor, nothing to do with ed, merely inspired by it
15:05:25 <cheater99> mv ex vi
15:05:41 <cheater99> also they did mv ex ed
15:05:46 <alise> cheater99: if you're trying to troll, it's incredibly boring and obvious; if you're actually serious, you're just stupid
15:05:53 <alise> (if you're trying to make a joke, it isn't funny)
15:06:00 <cheater99> how could you ever think i was serious with that?
15:07:05 <cheater99> i'm trying to reconstruct the thought process
15:07:19 <alise> well, you've said similarly silly things before :)
15:07:21 <cheater99> was it "wow, that guy cheater99 TOTALLY doesn't know the difference between ed and ex!"
15:07:22 <cheater99> ?
15:07:30 <alise> for a second :P
15:07:37 <cheater99> trolled!
15:07:37 <alise> also, i'm *fairly* sure they're just
15:07:39 <cheater99> :P
15:07:43 <alise> (a) using a lenient definition of "script", and
15:07:57 <alise> (b) apparently not required to actually look at ex to decide what it does
15:08:12 <cheater99> no, they're just trolling too.
15:08:17 <alise> (The whole article is an unfunny joke; it provides an "implementation" of ed in Python that just reads input up until a "q" and outputs ?.)
15:08:24 <cheater99> also, vim is just a wrapper around vi with some added bash scripts
15:08:26 <alise> I'm fairly sure the introductory sentences are serious.
15:08:32 <cheater99> and emacs is a wrapper around screen and vim.
15:09:06 <cheater99> and, if you hadn't heard yet, erlang is just a wrapper around lisp
15:09:24 <cheater99> however, lisp is a wrapper around haskell, and haskell is a wrapper around erlang
15:09:29 <cheater99> no one has solved that problem yet
15:11:40 <alise> erlang is also a wrapper around BANCStar
15:13:38 <alise> coppro: ok i take it back, prof quotes more than makes up for it (i will not support your insipid logotype capitalisation)
15:13:58 <alise> hmm i seem to use insipid to mean much more than it actually does :)
15:15:16 <alise> "I was giving a tour of the observatory one day and ended up explaining how the stars are actually like the Sun, just really far away. It was great to catch people up from the 15th century." ;; i have had to do this more than i would like
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15:23:31 <alise> oerjanerer
15:23:47 * oerjan oerjaneers
15:27:49 <cheater99> alise: see, you got the hang of it
15:28:45 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM.
15:28:51 <cheater99> haha
15:29:08 <alise> Huh, apparently MI2's soundtrack WAS actually designed for MT-32.
15:29:16 <alise> Maybe it's just the intro music that sounds a bit odd.
15:30:36 <cheater99> roland mt-32?
15:30:38 <cheater99> really?
15:30:45 <HackEgo> No output.
15:30:50 <alise> cheater99: sure, just like the MI1 soundtrack
15:30:55 <alise> and all the Space Quest soundtracks
15:31:03 <cheater99> oh, i was thinking mission impossible 2
15:31:05 <cheater99> not monkey island
15:31:06 <alise> lawl
15:31:09 <cheater99> yeah, i know about monkey island
15:31:13 <oerjan> <Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version <-- IF YOU SAY SO
15:31:16 <alise> Space Quest -- was it 5? -- even showed "SPACE QUEST" or something on the MT-32's LCD.
15:31:20 <alise> I have an actual MT-32.
15:31:24 <cheater99> haha nice
15:31:25 <alise> Unfortunately: hard to wire up to a computer. Very hard.
15:31:31 <cheater99> do you have a roland sound canvas?
15:31:34 <cheater99> why is it hard?
15:31:35 <alise> And the analogue background noise is endearing but noticeable.
15:31:41 <alise> cheater99: no, I don't; and because it just has audio ports
15:31:53 <alise> and not much wants to send the right stuff down the line...
15:32:22 <oerjan> `addquote <Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version
15:32:23 <alise> cheater99: I *have* got it to play MIDI -- but in actual audio software only.
15:32:41 <oerjan> hey wait HackEgo is broken :(
15:32:45 <oerjan> `echo hi
15:32:51 <HackEgo> hi
15:32:51 <alise> oerjan: no, just very slow
15:32:55 <alise> give it a few minutes
15:33:07 <oerjan> alise: but it answered No output above :(
15:33:09 <cheater99> alise: still don't know why it's difficult to wire it up?
15:33:20 <alise> oerjan: hmm
15:33:27 <alise> cheater99: I explained:
15:33:33 <alise> cheater99: It has no computery ports, only audio ports.
15:33:34 <HackEgo> 233|<Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version
15:33:44 <alise> Getting software to send MT-32 data down the audio line is non-trivial.
15:33:47 <oerjan> ah just random failure
15:33:54 <oerjan> `quote 232
15:33:59 <HackEgo> 232|<Phantom_Hoover> It's only been 2 months since anyone last made a commit! <alise> WRONG 8 WEEKS
15:34:05 <cheater99> alise: ohh
15:34:06 <alise> cheater99: (Especially the special remapping ones where they change the entire sound, which a *lot* of games do.)
15:34:08 <cheater99> alise: ok got it
15:34:15 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM.
15:34:16 <alise> cheater99: I'm sure it's *possible*, but you sure as heck can't get ScummVM to do it.
15:34:22 <HackEgo> 233|<Phantom_Hoover> Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM.
15:34:22 <alise> Which is basically the only reason to do it.
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15:34:53 <oerjan> wait now it _reused_ the number D:
15:34:54 <alise> cheater99: Pirated MT-32 ROMs (or you could *manually* remove them... !) plus the emulator does a very good job.
15:35:00 <alise> Still doesn't sound analogue though.
15:35:01 <oerjan> `quote 233
15:35:01 <alise> oerjan: when?
15:35:05 <HackEgo> 233|<Phantom_Hoover> Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM.
15:35:27 <oerjan> alise: 233 for both Vorpal and last Phantom_Hoover quote
15:35:37 <oerjan> `addquote <Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version
15:35:37 <alise> oerjan: eek :D
15:35:53 <HackEgo> 234|<Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version
15:35:57 <oerjan> whew
15:36:12 <oerjan> Gregor: HackEgo's quote database has some _weird_ bugs
15:36:14 <alise> `quote 231
15:36:16 <HackEgo> 231|<Vorpal> pikhq, Okinawan? Wtf is that
15:36:18 <alise> `quote 232
15:36:22 <HackEgo> 232|<Phantom_Hoover> It's only been 2 months since anyone last made a commit! <alise> WRONG 8 WEEKS
15:36:25 <alise> `quote 233
15:36:36 <HackEgo> 233|<Phantom_Hoover> Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM.
15:36:38 <alise> `quote 234
15:36:41 <cheater99> `quote 12/13
15:36:44 <oerjan> i think HackEgo may have something in the DSM
15:36:45 <HackEgo> No output.
15:36:47 <HackEgo> 234|<Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version
15:36:54 <alise> oerjan: duplicate quote
15:36:55 <cheater99> i suggest we start supporting rational numbers in the primary key.
15:36:57 <alise> 234 is
15:36:58 <alise> `help
15:36:59 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
15:37:11 <alise> let's see if i remember how to use revert
15:37:18 <oerjan> alise: um how so?
15:37:27 <alise> oh wait
15:37:29 <alise> you're right
15:37:35 <alise> i thought your addquote line was actually one of my quote requests
15:37:39 <oerjan> alise: HackEgo _overwrote_ the original 233 it seems
15:37:46 <alise> :D
15:38:19 <oerjan> it looks like all the quotes finally got in, anyhow
15:38:28 <oerjan> (FOR NOW)
15:40:44 <alise> the end of LeChuck's Revelation is sweet
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15:46:04 <oerjan> <cheater99> and, if you hadn't heard yet, erlang is just a wrapper around lisp <-- ITYM PROLOG. sheesh don't you know ANYTHING?
15:46:21 <cheater99> :(
15:46:28 <Sgeo> Dear whatever is causing window borders etc. to just die: Fuck you
15:46:37 <cheater99> please don't hit me mommy :(
15:46:46 * oerjan swats cheater99 -----###
15:46:48 <cheater99> Sgeo: on ubuntu?
15:46:53 <oerjan> ALSO, I'M NOT YOUR MOMMY
15:47:04 <Sgeo> Yes
15:47:10 <cheater99> Sgeo: it's fucking compiz
15:47:17 <cheater99> the worst piece of software in existence
15:47:31 <alise> compiz is terribly designed but i have an intel gpu so it just works :P
15:47:38 <cheater99> same
15:47:42 <cheater99> but it still gave me that shit
15:47:46 <cheater99> as for sgeo
15:47:46 <alise> ha ha
15:47:58 <alise> ok so i probably just haven't given it enough time :p
15:48:13 * Sgeo likes his visual effects
15:48:23 <Sgeo> Not enough to deal with this, though
15:48:32 <alise> Sgeo: oh, what? you have the wobbly resize and everything turned on?
15:48:35 <alise> LOL
15:48:36 * Sgeo wonders if this is also somehow related to Firefox crashing
15:48:40 <Sgeo> No, just the defaults
15:48:47 <alise> Normal or whatever's above that
15:48:54 <alise> Extra
15:48:55 <Sgeo> Normal
15:49:11 <alise> then the only visual effect is... minimising and restoring
15:49:29 <alise> well, shadows and non-active window semitransparency
15:49:30 <alise> but that's it
15:49:32 <alise> (titlebar)
15:49:41 <alise> (barely noticeable effect)
15:49:50 <Sgeo> My terminal stopped being transparent!
15:49:58 <Sgeo> Meh, I'll live
15:50:00 <alise> ...
15:50:04 <alise> TRANSPARENT TERMINALS ARE THE WORST FUCKING IDEA EVER
15:50:10 <alise> like translucent fucking paper
15:50:22 <alise> hope you feel cool
15:50:25 <alise> "Roland MT-32 and CM-32L control and pcm roms for use with DOSBox and Munt" ;; yesplz
15:50:35 <oerjan> but but then you can spy on people when you're reading!
15:54:18 <alise> [[The next thing we have is "Movies That Don't Have Sequels" Movie Night! We're showing Pirates of the Caribbean and The Matrix.]]
15:57:34 * oerjan tends to see Highlander included in such lists too
15:57:45 <alise> I DON'T WANT THE FUCKING SPECIAL EDITION I WANT THE ORIGINAL OCTOBER 1990 SOMI
15:59:10 * Sgeo only saw approx. the ending of The Matrix, and the two sequels
15:59:45 <alise> seriously?
15:59:52 <alise> you've watched two terrible movies
15:59:55 <alise> and spoiled a really good one
15:59:57 <alise> fail
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16:07:29 <impomatic> Hi :-)
16:08:26 <oerjan> the ho
16:09:04 <oerjan> *de
16:11:30 <Sgeo> AAAH
16:11:39 <alise> oerjan: relatedly, Games That Don't Have More Than N Sequels
16:11:40 <Sgeo> Notifications are no longer semitransparent
16:11:45 <alise> Sgeo: OH NO
16:11:56 * oerjan shoots at the zombies following Sgeo
16:12:01 <alise> Games That Don't Have More Than 2 (or 1 if you're boring and anal or Ron Gilbert) Sequels: Monkey Island
16:12:13 <Sgeo> And they're completely invisible when the cursor is over them
16:12:17 <alise> Games That Probably Don't Have More Than 1 Sequel For Someone: Fallout
16:12:19 <alise> Sgeo: SO WHAT
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16:19:58 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/zPEGs.jpg
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16:31:28 <Sgeo> It's a magic dance magic dance magic dance
16:31:34 * Sgeo starts singing
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16:33:11 <impomatic> It's just starting to rain here :-(
16:37:34 <alise> Remember...
16:37:34 <alise> Wherever you go...
16:37:35 <alise> On sea or on land,
16:37:35 <alise> You can't ever hide
16:37:35 <alise> From Largo LeGrande!
16:40:56 <Vorpal> <HackEgo> 234|<Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version <-- I was quoting wikipedia
16:41:08 <Sgeo> `quote 231
16:41:13 <Vorpal> orejan completely fails
16:41:20 <Vorpal> I did not claim it was easier to read
16:41:23 <HackEgo> 231|<Vorpal> pikhq, Okinawan? Wtf is that
16:41:25 <Vorpal> I quoted wikipedia saying so
16:41:40 <alise> yeah oerjan realised that you dipshit
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16:43:52 <alise> http://miwiki.net/images/Mi2se_comparison.jpg ;; what did the redraw do to the poor man's nose...
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17:22:33 <olsner> Vorpal: the quote is funnier that way, stop complaining :)
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17:29:01 <Sgeo> Which is more line-noise-y? J or dc?
17:29:34 <alise> neither are line-noisey.
17:29:37 <alise> you have clearly never seen line noise
17:29:49 <alise> also, J code is more comprehensible than dc code.
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17:51:39 <Mathnerd314> I don't like J; it's not open source :-/
17:58:44 <alise> "Boo hoo." The libraries are at least viewable-source.
17:58:49 <alise> Feel free to reimplement it...
17:59:19 <alise> http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/zakmckracken/zak-fmtowns.png ;; Zak McKracken and the Alien Mindbenders, English FM Towns version
17:59:24 <alise> http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/zakmckracken/zak-fmtownsj.png ;; Japanese FM Towns version.
17:59:25 <alise> *Groan*
17:59:42 <alise> (Real screenshots.)
18:00:31 <zeotrope> did someone say J?
18:00:41 <alise> Yes, yes they did.
18:00:48 <olsner> alise: how does line noise look?
18:01:03 <zeotrope> http://github.com/zeotrope/j7-src
18:01:15 <alise> olsner: not like a bunch of letters, a few punctuation chars and a lot of []s!
18:01:29 <olsner> but more like perl code?
18:01:50 <alise> olsner: a lot of control characters, most likely
18:01:50 <zeotrope> an old version of the J interpreter
18:01:57 <alise> zeotrope: ah, the first version?
18:02:03 <alise> no ... the first version was one file
18:02:09 <Gregor> "Viewable-source"
18:02:10 <Gregor> Yeesh
18:02:14 <alise> zeotrope: where did you get this?
18:02:19 <alise> zeotrope: also, fuck formatting changes
18:02:21 <Gregor> Windows CE is also "viewable-source"
18:02:25 <zeotrope> waterloo APL/J archives
18:02:32 <alise> zeotrope: awesome. now undo your lame changes :D
18:02:38 <alise> Gregor: no, as in you can download it freely and it has the files right there
18:02:40 <alise> and you can change them
18:02:41 <alise> and it works
18:02:47 <alise> you just can't redistribute changes.
18:02:48 <alise> well
18:02:49 <alise> in fact
18:02:53 <alise> distributing a patch should be legal
18:03:02 <alise> so... whoo qmail-style development
18:03:13 <alise> the only actually closed-source bit is the interpreter itself and the Java UI
18:03:31 <alise> i think a lot of the forms (UI) stuff is part of the lib too so that'd be sourced as well
18:03:38 <Gregor> People who use shitty licenses are the worst kind of people :P
18:03:47 <zeotrope> in j7.01 this will be the case
18:03:58 <zeotrope> the gtk and web frontend will be written in J
18:04:01 <alise> Gregor: there is no license, it's freeware
18:04:05 <alise> zeotrope: omg, there's gonna be a gtk frontend?
18:04:09 <alise> zeotrope: <3
18:04:18 <alise> K has cooler UI stuff though ;)
18:04:24 <alise> K3 that is
18:04:30 <zeotrope> K has a lot of cool things
18:04:40 <alise> K4/K5 are abominations of databasery :<
18:04:44 <zeotrope> too bad its license sucks even more
18:04:51 <alise> yeah well
18:04:58 <alise> nsl still has the binaries :P
18:05:09 <zeotrope> don't those binaries have a time limit?
18:05:12 <alise> although it's not in a linked path
18:05:15 <alise> zeotrope: no
18:05:21 <alise> it's the full k3
18:05:27 <alise> or at least... i never found a limitation
18:05:28 <alise> the manual, too
18:05:35 <alise> linux, windows and i think solaris or something weird like that
18:05:35 <zeotrope> hmm, I'll take a look
18:05:40 <alise> but the windows binaries in wine work way better than the linux ones
18:05:41 <alise> for gui
18:05:48 <alise> zeotrope: as i said, pretty sure it's in an unlinked directory
18:05:55 <alise> the megabreds guys linked me
18:06:49 <zeotrope> I've never liked Q
18:07:01 <alise> zeotrope: wait, why will it be 701?
18:07:04 <alise> it's 602 now
18:07:12 <alise> lots of unreleased/pay-only revisions?
18:07:28 <alise> or just a weird versioning scheme?
18:07:40 <zeotrope> I guess, I'm not sure how they are named
18:07:55 <zeotrope> since the old interpreter I showed you is called version 7
18:08:00 <pikhq> Slightly silly yet probably good idea for running Windows programs that don't work well in WINE (old games using obscure Direct2D features, for instance): have a Windows VM for qemu in QCOW. Create a new QCOW image using that one as the base. Install.
18:08:00 <alise> http://www.kx.com/a/ ;; here's a big directory of (official) k stuff
18:08:06 <alise> there might be a k3 binray there somewhere
18:08:14 <pikhq> Voila, per-app virtual machines not using unreasonable space.
18:09:06 <alise> pikhq: Or just use Xen to virtualise Windows! MWAHAHAHA--
18:09:56 <pikhq> alise: Well, to do that, you need to be using a recent CPU, and qemu built to use Xen.
18:09:59 <alise> zeotrope: i'm trying to find k3 now :)
18:10:07 <alise> pikhq: OR JUST USE PLAIN XEN MWAHAHA
18:10:11 <zeotrope> ya, me too
18:10:21 <zeotrope> I love Arthur Whitney's C style
18:10:22 <alise> zeotrope: if all else fails i can try and get in touch with the guy who linked me.
18:10:49 <pikhq> alise: No source license handy, sadly.
18:10:58 <alise> pikhq: MWAHAHAHA
18:11:06 <alise> zeotrope: have you seen the k->english code?
18:11:07 <alise> it's awesome
18:11:15 <zeotrope> no? link?
18:11:20 <alise> zeotrope: i'll try and find it
18:11:30 <alise> zeotrope: basically it replaces verbs with what they do and does a few adjective changes
18:11:31 <alise> quite amusing
18:11:39 <alise> especially as the code itself is incomprehensible :P
18:11:48 <zeotrope> to a non K-er :P
18:11:57 <alise> zeotrope: to a mortal
18:12:05 <Gregor> pikhq: Have fun fighting Windows update.
18:12:13 <zeotrope> I find J quite readable, but K pushes it with the overloading
18:12:20 <pikhq> Gregor: Here's the thing: we use Windows 2000 for it. THERE ARE NO UPDATES
18:12:25 <alise> zeotrope: tbh i've written a bit of k myself using the manual
18:12:29 <alise> zeotrope: the gui stuff is amazingly cool
18:12:30 <pikhq> Or 95, depending on what works better.
18:12:39 <Gregor> pikhq: Have fun getting hax0rd ;)
18:12:44 <alise> zeotrope: every value has properties
18:12:52 <alise> Gregor: yeah cuz you'd put it on the net of course.
18:13:02 <pikhq> Gregor: No known vulnerabilities for a fully-patched version of either, because NOBODY GIVES A SHIT.
18:13:06 <alise> zeotrope: like every value has its own dictionary...directory...hash table
18:13:10 <alise> and in fact every value has a path to it from the root
18:13:10 <pikhq> Well, except for in Internet Explorer.
18:13:13 <alise> an object filesystem
18:13:14 <pikhq> But who uses that shit?
18:13:18 <alise> anyway, every object has below it a GUI directory
18:13:26 <alise> where you specify what kind of control it should show as and actions and the like
18:13:36 <alise> and then you can have lists, and specify how they should show, as a form or a spreadsheet or whatever
18:13:38 <pikhq> Gregor: And anyways: totally totally behind iptables, even if it *is* on the net.
18:13:38 <alise> and then you just show them
18:13:40 <alise> it's really cool
18:13:44 <zeotrope> I vaguely remember that, it was called a K-tree or something
18:13:48 <alise> yeah
18:13:57 <alise> http://www.nsl.com/k/view.k ;; K tree viewer :P
18:14:07 <alise> the blah..x stuff is the gui stuff
18:14:39 <alise> http://www.nsl.com/papers/spreadsheet.htm spreadsheets are stupidly simple since it's basically built-in :P
18:14:59 <alise> zeotrope: anyway windows is unquestionably the best platform for using K on, WINE works fine too.
18:15:04 <alise> for the gui
18:17:25 <zeotrope> why must all the modern APLs be closed
18:17:28 <zeotrope> :(
18:17:38 <alise> zeotrope: A+!
18:17:43 <zeotrope> A+ doesn't count
18:17:43 <alise> THE MOST TOTALLY AWESOME APL DERIVATIVE EVER
18:17:47 <zeotrope> haha
18:17:50 <alise> haha why not? i sort of agree but
18:17:53 <alise> interested in hearing your reasoning
18:18:00 <alise> A+ amuses me because of the ... conventional libraries
18:18:04 <alise> also, nine parameters bullshit
18:18:05 <zeotrope> the character set for one
18:18:24 <alise> but it's more APLthentic :P
18:18:28 <zeotrope> and it lacks a lot of "modern" stuff
18:18:36 <alise> hm like what?
18:18:40 <alise> good gui support?
18:18:51 <zeotrope> libraries ya
18:18:56 <zeotrope> but even semantics of the language
18:19:03 <alise> hmm
18:19:04 <alise> example?
18:19:46 <zeotrope> exceptions?
18:19:46 <alise> zeotrope: grah, you have got me looking for k3!
18:19:55 <alise> wait, exceptions in what sense?
18:20:13 <zeotrope> like proper error checking
18:20:21 <zeotrope> nit-picking
18:20:25 <alise> as in non-local control flow?
18:20:29 <zeotrope> but anything that applies to APL
18:20:32 <alise> non-local, imperative control flow?
18:20:37 <zeotrope> ya
18:20:38 <alise> i'd say that's not a thing to brag about having!
18:20:44 <zeotrope> not gotos
18:20:50 <alise> i know what exceptions are
18:20:57 <alise> they're still non-local, imperative control flow
18:21:03 <alise> which breaks like 3 out of 3 rules of how array programming works
18:21:13 <zeotrope> if they are useful..
18:21:19 <alise> (functional, not imperative, no "control flow" as such)
18:21:29 <alise> zeotrope: not that useful imo.
18:21:30 <zeotrope> so are explicit conditionals
18:21:37 <alise> ok that i'll grant
18:23:23 <zeotrope> hmm A+ has a lot of things I never knew..
18:23:57 <zeotrope> does it have a rank operator?
18:24:45 <zeotrope> or does it still use APL bracket syntax
18:24:52 <alise> dunno
18:24:57 <alise> zeotrope: k has no rank :)
18:24:59 <alise> simplicity!
18:25:15 <zeotrope> but rank is simplicity
18:25:29 <zeotrope> generalizing a hard concept into one operator
18:25:32 <alise> zeotrope: no, k literally has no replacement for it
18:25:35 <alise> you just don't do that >:)
18:25:52 <alise> as far as i understand; i may be wrong
18:26:11 <zeotrope> no, I believe you are correct
18:26:20 <zeotrope> from what I have seen of K code
18:26:26 <alise> IS THAT AN INSULT MY FRIEND
18:26:50 <zeotrope> APL FIGHT!
18:28:16 <zeotrope> x@>#:'x
18:28:30 <zeotrope> that's K for sorting strings by length
18:28:45 <zeotrope> it appears that #:' does each length
18:28:58 <zeotrope> so there must be some sort of selection
18:29:15 <alise> it's just magic so there
18:30:32 <zeotrope> J version is better imo: (/: #&>)
18:30:51 <alise> you'd say that, Jacist
18:30:56 <alise> which sounds like racist, coincidence?
18:31:02 <zeotrope> not at all..
18:31:02 <alise> I declare jihad
18:31:59 <zeotrope> on J?
18:32:07 <zeotrope> J..Jihad..zomg
18:32:11 <alise> yes
18:32:19 <zeotrope> it's all so clear now
18:32:19 <alise> JJihad, J^2ihad
18:42:39 <alise> WHERE IS K
18:43:25 <alise> zeotrope: btw http://www.nsl.com/papers/instant.htm, starts out normal before he starts freaking transmitting code to be executed and then *editing objects that result and re-sending them*
18:43:28 <alise> you may have already seen it
18:43:39 <alise> not sure exactly how secure it is :P
18:45:35 <zeotrope> I'm impressed at how much K stuff there is
18:45:48 <alise> zeotrope: most of it his :P
18:46:00 <zeotrope> ya :P
18:46:04 <alise> what's his name again, i've forgotten
18:46:08 <alise> Steven A...?
18:46:09 <alise> Steven Apter?
18:47:37 <zeotrope> yup
18:47:42 <alise> zeotrope: http://www.nsl.com/links.html he has quite an esolang passion if you grep /Esoteric/
18:47:45 <zeotrope> stevan
18:47:50 <alise> also there's some esoteric language implementations on nsl.com...
18:48:09 <alise> unlambda, jot, zot, 01, 10, befunge-93, false, befreak, brainfuck
18:48:14 <alise> in K ofc
18:50:21 <alise> zeotrope: if olegfink was online i'd just ask him for the link
18:51:10 <zeotrope> is that the J/K oleg?
18:51:28 <alise> zeotrope: is there a specific J/K oleg?
18:51:31 <alise> I suppose it may be.
18:51:35 <alise> http://nsl.com/k/excel.k ;; excel v1
18:51:37 <alise> http://nsl.com/k/excel/excel2.k ;; excel v2
18:51:39 <alise> WHAT NOW MICROSOFT
18:52:03 <zeotrope> the goggles..
18:52:12 <alise> zeotrope: see bottom of page for actual VB macros for excel :D
18:52:18 <alise> to use with k for ... i have no idea what this does
18:52:25 <alise> http://nsl.com/k/excel/
18:52:32 <alise> maybe k.xls holds the key
18:55:12 <zeotrope> k.xls has a macro called kload, I'm assuming this is an interface to excel
18:55:34 <alise> the mind boggles.
18:55:40 <zeotrope> but is it to write K in excel
18:55:43 <alise> the bind moggles
18:55:49 <alise> zeotrope: i think it's two-way?? I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS THIS
18:55:50 <zeotrope> or to manipulate excel from K
18:56:03 <alise> the k obvs parses formulas...
18:56:34 <zeotrope> ya, small lexer there
18:57:14 <zeotrope> and parser
18:57:16 <zeotrope> and ..
18:57:19 <alise> and something
18:58:12 <zeotrope> I also once saw K in K
18:58:42 <alise> http://nsl.com/k/wolfram.k
18:58:54 <alise> in which steven rewrites A New Kind of Science in three lines
18:59:01 <alise> then gives it a GUI in three
18:59:05 <alise> well, basically two
18:59:12 <cheater99> what's K
19:00:06 <zeotrope> a descendant of APL
19:00:15 <cheater99> why do we care?
19:00:33 <zeotrope> no one said you do
19:02:02 <alise> cheater99: we have cared about J/K for a while.
19:02:21 <cheater99> alise: oh ok
19:02:21 <alise> a year or two in fact
19:02:28 <cheater99> is that a word play
19:02:28 <alise> zeotrope: http://www.kx.com/a/k/examples/read.k ;; the ->english
19:02:40 <alise> http://nsl.com/papers/kisntlisp.htm seems to imply it turns
19:02:45 <alise> +(#:'=v[;1];?v[;1])
19:02:45 <alise> into
19:02:46 <cheater99> and are you gonna suddenly scream out JUST KIDDING!!
19:02:46 <alise> flip(count each group v[;1];unique v[;1])
19:02:48 <alise> cheater99: no.
19:02:55 <alise> that would be stupid.
19:02:59 <cheater99> yes
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19:03:26 <cheater99> but because of that, it would also be completely unexpected. which would make it smart again.
19:03:34 <alise> no
19:03:38 <alise> no it wouldn't
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19:04:14 <cheater99> *sneeze*
19:04:18 * cheater99 has a cold : (
19:04:47 * alise is COLS AND HEARTLESS
19:05:10 <alise> *COLD
19:05:13 <cheater99> alise: so you're tabular?
19:05:17 <zeotrope> there is a similar one in J, converts J to "english"
19:05:23 <zeotrope> or haskell imo
19:05:34 <cheater99> alise: do you run a local instance of squid proxy?
19:05:57 <alise> cheater99: no
19:06:00 <alise> zeotrope: lol
19:06:05 <alise> cheater99: do you?
19:08:49 <cheater99> yes
19:08:54 <alise> why?
19:09:00 <cheater99> it works perfectly for fixing my internet woes
19:09:04 <alise> define
19:09:12 <cheater99> i use mobile internet (temporarily) and they have this transparent proxy
19:09:24 <alise> i used mobile internet for over a month
19:09:31 <cheater99> it minifies html and recompresses images, and sometimes it returns empty responses in error
19:09:36 <alise> it didn't compress images though or any of that bullshit
19:09:40 <cheater99> squid has an option for retrying that
19:09:43 <alise> just had a content filter, easily removed
19:09:46 <alise> (you just call up)
19:09:49 <cheater99> ALSO:
19:09:55 <cheater99> it's great for when you use multiple browsers
19:10:00 <cheater99> and want to share a cache between them
19:10:03 <alise> i don't
19:10:13 <cheater99> also allows webpages to be prefetched
19:18:20 <cheater99> however, it seems to be fucking up dns too
19:18:32 <cheater99> so i get squid complaining that there are no dns records for q.ebaystatic.com.
19:18:40 <cheater99> and i have to think about getting a dns caching proxy too
19:18:51 <alise> http://www.logarithmic.net/ghost.xhtml ;; click "random" a lot
19:18:52 <alise> wonderful
19:19:31 <cheater99> alise: how come you're all into diagrams suddenly?
19:19:38 <alise> cheater99: er, I am?
19:19:42 <alise> what else have i said about diagrams?
19:19:50 <cheater99> you were posting some diagram game last week i think
19:20:15 <cheater99> where you had to come up with the longest interconnected line or something like that and had hexagonal tiles
19:20:40 <alise> really?
19:20:43 <alise> no, no i didn't
19:20:47 <alise> you must be thinking of someone else
19:20:50 <alise> or i have amnesia
19:22:08 <cheater99> it's probably my error
19:22:32 <alise> 'a aC C', 'a bC D', 'b aD C', 'b bD D', 'cacAAA', 'dacBBB', 'cbcBBB', 'dbcBBB', 'cadAAA', 'dadBBB', 'cbdBBB', 'dbdAAA', colors=['#fff', '#000', '#888', '#888', '#888', '#888', '#fff', '#000', '#000', '#000', '#fff', '#000', '#000', '#fff']
19:22:35 <alise> a tileset implementing rule 110
19:22:54 <alise> colors doesn't work with the web version
19:22:55 <alise> it seems
19:23:10 <cheater99> i've seen it
19:23:25 <cheater99> so i wonder when his program knows that a tileset is "solved"
19:23:40 <alise> when it's filled the whole field, which is finite, presumably
19:23:45 <cheater99> i mean this isn't regular at all that i know of: '11 1 ', '111 1 '
19:23:46 <cheater99> ok
19:23:51 <alise> cheater99: it's random
19:23:52 <alise> i think
19:23:56 <cheater99> ah ok
19:24:04 <cheater99> but sometimes it does backtracking
19:24:05 <alise> which is why you get a different one each time
19:24:10 <cheater99> and i don't know when it decides to do that
19:24:13 <alise> cheater99: presumably if it figures out it can't fit something somewhere
19:24:14 <alise> at all
19:24:37 <cheater99> maybe possibly not terminating? 'dDDDd-', 'ddDd-D', 'ddd--D'
19:25:17 <cheater99> try it
19:25:24 <alise> heh
19:25:25 <alise> it hates you :)
19:25:41 <alise> cheater99: it may be impossible to do, or simply take a very long time
19:25:54 <cheater99> yes
19:26:15 <cheater99> but given that i'm only on a centrino, it's relatively NP-hard.
19:27:48 <alise> cheater99: ... wat
19:27:58 <alise> worst abuse of NP-hard ever :D
19:28:23 <cheater99> it's np-hard-to-disprove-on-a-slow-cpu
19:33:35 <alise> cheater99: wow he included ghost diagrams in his phd thesis
19:33:43 <alise> http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/thesis chapter 7 apparently
19:33:52 <alise> holy 60 megabyte pdf batman :)
19:33:58 <cheater99> alise: niiice
19:34:21 <alise> i can't get the hang of making nice patterns yet :(
19:36:34 <alise> cheater99: oh the same guy also wrote a GIMP plugin that does that awesome texture synthesis stuff
19:36:42 <alise> i.e. "oh look i just removed this object by coping some of the sky" and the like
19:37:29 <cheater99> you mean the least-power-path thing?
19:38:02 <alise> hmm?
19:38:18 <alise> cheater99: http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/resynthesizer
19:38:22 <alise> see the example pages
19:38:45 <alise> photoshop recently introduced this and everyone called it magical
19:38:55 <alise> resynthesizer is slightly less polished but still pretty good
19:39:05 <alise> also part of his Ph.D. xD
19:40:18 * alise , in a stunning burst of insanity, decides to code a stupid half-wiki
19:40:46 <cheater99> oh that's cooool
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19:42:13 <cheater99> i like this a looot: http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/resynthesizer/theming
19:42:34 <Sgeo> ARGH
19:42:39 <Sgeo> I can't seem to press Enter!
19:42:47 <Sgeo> On ShareKeyboard
19:42:51 <cheater99> press the other enter
19:43:31 <alise> why are browsers so stupid that they can't embed a program inside a page
19:43:33 <alise> without like java crap
19:43:38 <alise> i wanna say
19:43:52 <SgeoN1> This is a test, this is only a test. ShareKeyboard is pretty awesome. Except for the lack of an Enter key... help me help me I can't say anything
19:44:07 <cheater99> alise: don't get me started
19:44:16 <cheater99> alise: every technology used by the internet is a failed piece of crap
19:44:27 <alise> foo = document.getElementById("editor").runApplication(preferences.editor, "-stdin"); foo.write(sometext);
19:44:28 <alise> or whatever
19:44:33 <alise> reasons why this doesn't work:
19:44:36 <alise> - shitty OSes are architectured shittily
19:44:45 <alise> - LOL EVERYBODY FAILS AT MAKING A SECURITY SYSTEM SO WE JUST STOP PEOPLE DOING USEFUL THINGS
19:44:47 <alise> - fuck everything
19:44:51 <SgeoN1> I had to switch to stock keyboard to send that... although actually, in landscape mode, there's a share button
19:44:57 <SgeoN1> Erm, send button
19:45:33 <SgeoN1>
19:47:30 <alise> cheater99: ... so instead i'll just implement my own editor component! BECAUSE I CLEARLY WANT TO DO THAT
19:47:40 <alise> fuck the web. fuck it fuck it
19:48:00 <cheater99> yes, fuck it
19:48:01 <alise> i made some wiki software once that popped open your editor to edit pages, that was quite nice but only worked locally...
19:48:24 <alise> cheater99: and here's the monstrosity that did it:
19:48:37 <alise> it was a pre-rendered dealie
19:48:37 <cheater99> i expect java
19:48:39 <alise> not online
19:48:42 <alise> so
19:48:51 <alise> the edit link linked to a *localhost* with ?page=foo
19:48:51 <alise> now
19:48:53 <alise> on your localhost
19:48:56 <alise> you ran a server
19:48:59 <alise> that listened for requests
19:49:01 <cheater99> ahh
19:49:01 <cheater99> haha
19:49:04 <alise> and opened your editor
19:49:14 <cheater99> sounds like php and system()
19:49:16 <alise> so you'd click the link on your external server, which would bounce back to localhost, which would open your editor and redirect you back
19:49:21 <alise> so you had an "edit" link that worked
19:49:37 <alise> then you edited, saved, and pressed whatever hotkey you had to build and upload the site
19:49:47 <alise> the code was a bit of a mess though, for the building bit
19:49:53 <SgeoN1> Testing with WifiKeyboard, this is a test this is only a test.
19:49:59 <SgeoN1> This is much, much better for IRC
19:50:11 <SgeoN1> And no ads!
19:50:24 <SgeoN1> Can't see the input on the computer screen, though
19:50:29 <SgeoN1> But I can seem to backspace
19:50:36 <alise> "Male infertility gene discovered" --BBC News
19:50:53 <alise> NATURAL SELECTION: THE MORE YOU KNOW =============*
19:51:33 <SgeoN1> So in Game mode, backspace only sends one backspace
19:52:10 <SgeoN1> Love, love, is a verb, love is a doing word
19:52:13 <SgeoN1>
19:52:18 <SgeoN1> ə
19:52:20 <alise> Shut up.
19:52:42 <SgeoN1> Never!
19:52:47 <SgeoN1> Muahahahahhahahahhh!
19:52:49 * SgeoN1 goes insane
19:54:10 <SgeoN1> I think this will be useful at schoo, so I don't have to login to, say, Gmail to respond using a decent keybiard
19:54:25 <SgeoN1> Hmm, I'm not even looking at my phone right now, so don't know if I'm typoing
19:54:33 <SgeoN1> Since Wifi Keyboard doesn't show current input
19:56:56 <SgeoN1> It occurs to me that it's not the most secure thing to use at school :/
19:57:21 <alise> cheater99: How do you name things? I'm wondering if there is actually a trick t it.
19:57:26 <alise> *to
19:57:29 <alise> Busyloop!
19:57:58 <cheater99> alise: in a greenfield project, in a legacy project, or when reverse-engineering?
19:57:58 <SgeoN1> Well, if someone else starts typing, the thing will complain about multiple input
19:58:23 <alise> cheater99: Just... naming a spare-time project. Greenfield, sure.
19:58:32 <alise> I don't have any other kinds of projects. :p
19:58:42 <cheater99> oh, you mean naming a project
19:58:54 <cheater99> i thought you meant code objects (classes, functions, variables)
19:59:07 <cheater99> well then, i usually try to figure out if there has been some form of inspiration for this
19:59:31 <cheater99> i try to find the use for what i'm doing, and then express the gist of that
19:59:32 <alise> i'm thinking maybe bonsai but that's a very tenuous link
19:59:37 <alise> (bonsai trees are small, my software is small!)
19:59:44 <alise> seems almost like i should save that name for something better.
20:00:00 <cheater99> no, that's not great
20:00:14 <cheater99> what software are you trying to name?
20:00:17 <cheater99> what does it do?
20:00:48 <alise> it's a pseudo-wiki (one user, designed for maintaining non-wiki-looking things)
20:00:56 <alise> primarily the byproduct of my serve NIH syndrome
20:03:18 <alise> cheater99: thinking about it, bonsai has a more tenuous link -- the links of pages to each other sort of form a branching tree
20:03:26 <alise> it's a graph, but whatever, you can imagine a link visualisation as a tree
20:04:11 <cheater99> you've got a problem i see in many coders right now
20:04:19 <cheater99> you are thinking of the code and not about what it does
20:04:32 <cheater99> i was doing a code review with this girl last friday
20:04:34 <alise> you mean i'm thinking too technically? dude, it's for my own use.
20:04:38 <cheater99> and i ask her what the application does
20:04:50 <cheater99> so she says "the calculation class blah blah blah"
20:04:50 <alise> here's what it does: it maintains a website.
20:04:57 <alise> <alise> it's a pseudo-wiki (one user, designed for maintaining non-wiki-looking things)
20:05:00 <alise> that's pretty non-codey
20:05:03 <cheater99> so i tell her ok, but i don't want to know about that, i want to know what the application is for
20:05:24 <cheater99> "yes, you build up a configuration object and then pass it and blah blah blah"
20:05:27 <cheater99> so i tell her
20:05:33 <alise> yes, i get it
20:05:35 <cheater99> no, i don't want to know about any classes
20:05:53 <cheater99> on the most basic level, what does the application do, in the eyes of a user?
20:06:03 <cheater99> "it is a collection of form text input fields."
20:06:07 <cheater99> . . .
20:06:11 <cheater99> i stopped asking
20:06:27 <alise> :D
20:06:30 <alise> but seriously, i didn't do that.
20:06:45 <cheater99> yeah
20:06:52 <cheater99> just sayin'
20:06:59 <cheater99> and besides
20:07:09 <cheater99> what's the difference if it's for your own use or for someone else's use?
20:07:20 <cheater99> there are big benefits to keeping projects public-ready
20:07:27 <cheater99> 1. it makes you finish them so they work
20:07:40 <cheater99> 2. it makes you write the important bits like manuals etc which makes you actually rethink usefulness
20:07:52 <cheater99> 3. it makes you package it nicely even if for your own use (useful down the line)
20:08:01 <cheater99> 4. it makes you think differently about what's necessary
20:09:53 <alise> cheater99: yeah, uh, you're no fun at all.
20:11:53 <cheater99> i kno :(
20:12:10 <cheater99> so this is a personal wiki only/
20:12:11 <cheater99> ?
20:12:17 <cheater99> uni-user?
20:12:27 <cheater99> or rather monouser
20:14:13 <alise> cheater99: yes
20:14:26 <alise> cheater99: but infinite readers
20:14:31 <cheater99> well
20:14:41 <cheater99> so you've got a set of information which you maintain
20:14:45 <cheater99> as your own brain map
20:14:56 <alise> i already know what i want it to do
20:14:58 <alise> i just want to name it.
20:14:58 <cheater99> like wolfram's brain?
20:15:04 <cheater99> is that it?
20:15:05 <cheater99> i'm guessing
20:15:42 <alise> cheater99: not really
20:15:50 <alise> it's just a website with an edit button for one person :P
20:15:55 <cheater99> but you're the only maintainer
20:16:02 <cheater99> and you make it nice and fine for yourself
20:16:18 <cheater99> others can look at it but you're the only one who builds it and understands it
20:16:31 <cheater99> that's a real connotation with a banzai
20:16:39 <alise> "banzai" does not mean what you think it is
20:16:41 <cheater99> since every banzai belongs to only one person
20:16:49 <cheater99> banzai tree ?
20:16:52 <alise> it means "ten thousand years".
20:16:54 <alise> you mean "bonsai".
20:17:04 <cheater99> yes
20:17:30 <cheater99> i have misspelled it because xchat underlined bonzai and not banzai :(
20:18:40 <alise> that's because it's bonsai
20:18:44 <alise> the more you know =========++*
20:18:46 <alise> *no +s
20:19:16 <alise> anyway bonsai it is then :P
20:19:22 <alise> now for the even harder part, deciding a language!
20:19:26 <alise> can you tell i never get anything done?
20:20:49 <cheater99> haskell
20:20:57 <cheater99> ftfy
20:21:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:22:56 <alise> cheater99: i became too theoretical to appreciate haskell :)
20:23:04 <cheater99> very good
20:23:08 <cheater99> now appreciate it practically
20:23:11 <alise> and then went so crazy that i decided to forget type systems even existed
20:23:16 <alise> i am now a lot less disturbed
20:23:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, no, we aren't on a Haskell vs C slanging match, are we?
20:23:37 <cheater99> ugh, how do you figure out your dns server now?
20:23:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: nope
20:23:45 <alise> cheater99 is on the haskell side
20:23:55 <alise> i'm on my own side
20:24:06 <alise> (<alise> cheater99: i became too theoretical to appreciate haskell :) <alise> and then went so crazy that i decided to forget type systems even existed <alise> i am now a lot less disturbed)
20:24:17 <alise> cheater99: /etc/resolv.conf?
20:24:20 <cheater99> alise: write it in something that has a natural impedance match for that
20:24:32 <alise> cheater99: wonderful advice; useless, of course, but...
20:24:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Why did you go crazy enough to forget type systems?
20:24:40 <alise> I might write it in rc :)
20:24:46 <cheater99> i.e. natural graph structures, and taxonomies
20:24:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: because the things you see... in type theory... they scare you
20:24:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Did you believe only in category theory?
20:24:52 <alise> you can never truly be whole again
20:25:07 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, what, you mean undecidable types?
20:25:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oh yeah you start becoming convinced that you should base a computational model on category theory
20:25:13 <alise> rather than type theory
20:25:21 <alise> that's usually when the cluster headaches start
20:25:26 <cheater99> alise: that file seems to work
20:25:34 <cheater99> does it get automagically updated by dialup software?
20:25:37 <Phantom_Hoover> What kind of awful things are there in type theory?
20:25:44 <alise> cheater99: DHCP will update it (I forget the client name)
20:25:50 <alise> so yes probably
20:26:05 <alise> cheater99: you may simply want to remove all write bits from the file if the dialup thing does it
20:26:08 <alise> cheater99: here NetworkManager sets it
20:26:15 <alise> cheater99: btw NetworkManager can connect to a lot of 3G modems
20:26:20 <alise> to avoid the shitty dialup software
20:26:21 <alise> highly recommended
20:26:40 <alise> Ubuntu, at least, has a nice wizard for it
20:26:43 <alise> if you go to edit connections
20:26:51 <alise> i bet you can set a custom dns server after that too
20:29:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit I want to know the forbidden secrets of type theory alise.
20:29:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: IA IA IA
20:29:32 <alise> Insert Zalgo
20:29:37 <Phantom_Hoover> You forgot the diæreses!
20:29:50 <alise> IÄ IÄ IÄ!
20:29:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Better!
20:31:19 <alise> I wish wiki syntaxes sucked less.
20:31:24 <alise> Solution: MAKE THEM SUCK LESS
20:31:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Which sucks more: PMWiki markup or MediaWiki markup?
20:31:47 <alise> {tag ...} is a tag. Maybe I'll have keyword arguments.
20:31:52 <cheater99> alise: hmm
20:32:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: If a tree falls in a forest and noöne is around to hear it?
20:32:06 <cheater99> alise: i should try it then
20:32:21 <alise> cheater99: what distro?
20:32:25 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, do you not know PMWiki markup?
20:32:28 <cheater99> ubuntu!
20:33:13 <alise> cheater99: uninstall crappy dialup software, right click network icon, edit connections, mobile broadband, add, hope for the best
20:33:20 <alise> it has a surprising range of support
20:33:22 <alise> and usually Just Works
20:33:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Indeed not.
20:33:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But I was implying their equal shittiness.
20:33:56 <Phantom_Hoover> It's what TV Tropes uses.
20:34:05 <alise> Yeah.
20:34:08 <alise> I've edited TV Tropes exactly once.
20:34:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, at least MediaWiki doesn't have 4 different kinds of link formats.
20:34:32 <Phantom_Hoover> *internal link formats.
20:34:33 <alise> When you go to edit it tells you not to say This Troper on the article page because they're making the pages not discussions any more.
20:34:38 <alise> Which is Wikipedian bullshit.
20:34:49 <alise> Clearly they have never browsed WardsWiki.
20:35:22 <Phantom_Hoover> The discussion does get a little out of hand in both places...
20:35:24 <cheater99> alise: i don't think i need to uninstall crappy dialup software
20:35:36 <cheater99> alise: btw, i have ditched network manager for wicd
20:35:40 <alise> cheater99: if it's handling connections you probably do.
20:35:42 <cheater99> network manager was cancer for me
20:35:46 <alise> cheater99: also, i doubt wicd can do this.
20:35:48 <alise> so your loss
20:35:51 <cheater99> yeah
20:35:57 <alise> cheater99: networkmanager works fine :P
20:35:57 <cheater99> but nm was very very bad for me
20:36:04 <alise> better than shitty dialup software for sure
20:36:05 <cheater99> the wifi was dying all the time with nm
20:36:16 <alise> this ain't wifi
20:36:53 <alise> cheater99: anyway just make your changes to /etc/resolv.conf, -w it
20:36:54 <alise> done
20:37:03 <cheater99> yeah
20:37:20 <cheater99> i set up djbdns on my pc
20:37:25 <cheater99> let's see how it works with retries
20:37:52 <alise> cheater99: djb software is great if you already have djb software, otherwise it brings along a lot of /services stuff :D
20:38:14 <cheater99> i have had it installed already
20:38:16 <cheater99> funnily enough
20:38:26 <cheater99> (i go through the package manager and install 100s of packages.)
20:38:32 <alise> ew
20:38:34 <alise> :P
20:38:55 <cheater99> it's great because it shows you software you never thought existed
20:39:14 <alise> i don't want to know about more software, the existing set gives me enough pain :)
20:39:20 <cheater99> alise are you into audio stuff at all?
20:39:28 <alise> specify further
20:40:16 <cheater99> well, making/recording music
20:40:21 <cheater99> and sounds
20:40:43 <alise> i'd like to do it, but i have no particular talent for it.
20:40:58 <cheater99> define "have no particular talent"
20:40:58 <alise> i have discovered this lack of talent an amusing number of times, and like to blame software for it.
20:41:10 <alise> cheater99: i have no particular inspiration for what to do to produce pleasing sounds.
20:41:24 <cheater99> ah
20:41:27 <cheater99> that comes with practice
20:41:37 <cheater99> but it's not that difficult
20:41:43 <alise> cheater99: i also have the extreme lack of patience to learn, say, an instrument.
20:42:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I love the way Look Around You lapses into horror at random.
20:42:11 <cheater99> it doesn't have to be about mastering finger techniques
20:42:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: which episode?
20:42:26 <cheater99> the cool thing about this stuff is that there's a lot of technology backing it
20:42:33 <cheater99> and a lot about it is highly esoteric
20:42:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Calcium specifically, but the Boîte Diabolique also counts.
20:42:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The Helvetica scenario.
20:42:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed.
20:43:00 <alise> cheater99: i have this wonderful plan to create a wonderful music-composition software based on vague bits of interacting code; it will never happen
20:43:10 <Phantom_Hoover> VwumVweeeeeeeeeee...VwumVweeeeeeeeeeeee
20:43:19 <cheater99> cellular automaton music has been done to death
20:43:23 <alise> cheater99: not that
20:43:36 <alise> imagine a typical horizontal-is-time, vertical-is-tracks thing, but instead of waveforms it's little snippets of code
20:43:51 <alise> and there's a huge library of, say, sine waves, midi, raw waveform, etc. functions
20:43:58 <cheater99> you've just described a tracker
20:44:01 <alise> and filters that do effects and the like
20:44:03 <alise> and you stack them with code
20:44:12 <alise> cheater99: i've never seen anyone input code into a tracker
20:44:21 <cheater99> screamtracker
20:44:25 <cheater99> well it's very simple code
20:44:33 <cheater99> it's just a few most important things
20:44:35 <alise> yeah, the code i'm thinking of isn't :P
20:44:45 <alise> you'd have, say, a whole "riff" in one block of code
20:45:07 <cheater99> yes
20:45:28 <alise> cheater99: it also doesn't help that simple music bores me
20:45:29 <Phantom_Hoover> <cheater99> cellular automaton music has been done to death ← it has?
20:45:33 <cheater99> you can do this stuff in uh..
20:45:35 <cheater99> what's the name
20:45:39 <alise> and making boring things bores me even more than consuming them.
20:45:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yes, even by wolfram
20:45:44 <alise> it sucks
20:46:04 <cheater99> cmusic? something like that
20:46:04 <Phantom_Hoover> How does it work?
20:46:06 <cheater99> c-something
20:46:10 <alise> chuck?
20:46:15 <alise> but i know there's another c- thin
20:46:17 <cheater99> alise: no
20:46:19 <alise> cheater99: and if you've ever tried creating might be
20:46:19 <cheater99> c-sound
20:46:20 <alise> erm
20:46:21 <cheater99> that's it
20:46:22 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMusic
20:46:39 <cheater99> i mean c-sound
20:46:49 <alise> cheater99: most music composition software is ridiculously complex, i've noticed
20:47:01 <alise> five billion twiddle knobs, five billion preferences behind it, five billion different modes...
20:47:04 <cheater99> cmusic is the max/msp predecessor isn't it?
20:47:16 <cheater99> yes
20:47:21 <cheater99> music software is generally gay
20:47:23 <alise> (also: interfaces that look like real equipment and have stupid knobs and shit MAKE ME FUCKING RAGE)
20:47:30 <Phantom_Hoover> And none of it implements the Boîtes Diabolique.
20:47:31 <cheater99> it's all like ms word
20:47:32 <alise> (MY COMPUTER DOES NOT FUCKING WORK LIKE THAT FUCK YOU)
20:47:40 <cheater99> if you want a nice vim based build system, you don't get shit.
20:48:01 <alise> xD
20:48:02 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, you expect *musicians* to be able to competently use a well-designed UI?
20:48:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I think not.
20:48:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Um.
20:48:18 <alise> If a musician can use Ableton.
20:48:24 <alise> Then that musician can use literally any interface known to man.
20:48:34 <alise> Ableton is the *craziest freaking thing* ever.
20:48:34 <Phantom_Hoover> </random-take-that-against-musicians>
20:48:50 <alise> Not even Reason is that bad.
20:49:07 <alise> cheater99: Maybe I'll get ahold of the original Atari ST version of Logic :)
20:49:08 <cheater99> i tried getting a job at ableton
20:49:11 <alise> My father has that.
20:49:14 <alise> And an Atari to run it on!
20:49:28 <cheater99> they replied with a code excercise
20:49:28 <cheater99> i replied with code
20:49:32 <Sgeo> Something happened last night
20:49:37 <cheater99> (in python, which they wanted)
20:49:42 <alise> (He now does music using Logic Studio on Windows Me. No joke.)
20:49:46 <cheater99> they replied that my code is not up to their quality standards
20:49:57 <cheater99> i had someone at PSF check that code and find no problems with it
20:50:00 <Sgeo> My dad said that if it weren't for him visiting the hospital where my step-mother's mom was, she would have died due to incompetent care
20:50:03 <cheater99> I WIN
20:50:09 <Sgeo> I wonder if maybe I should become a doctor
20:50:40 <Sgeo> I don't like the thought of other people's lives being in my hands, but if I displace someone who might be less competent, it's a net win I think
20:50:48 <cheater99> alise: tell him to start using sonar
20:50:56 <cheater99> alise: it's the nicest thing for windoze
20:50:59 <alise> cheater99: i'm not on speaking terms with my father.
20:51:05 <cheater99> alise: :(
20:51:20 <cheater99> alise: he uses windows me. i wouldn't talk to him either : P
20:51:27 <alise> also, he still uses Me because he never saw a reason to upgrade. also Cool Edit Pro and Sound Forge
20:51:32 <alise> so i doubt he will ever change his setup, ever
20:51:40 <cheater99> sound forge ain't so bad
20:51:45 <alise> cheater99: *old* sound forge
20:51:47 <alise> all the software is old
20:51:53 * Phantom_Hoover takes a look at Ableton's interface.
20:51:58 <cheater99> there's a point to "it works" though
20:51:58 <Phantom_Hoover> My god... I am humbled.
20:52:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: wat
20:52:10 <alise> yeah
20:52:12 <cheater99> ableton's interface is fairly shit
20:52:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it's even worse when you can click on it
20:52:26 <alise> see, the simplistic interface you normally see
20:52:29 <alise> is the one for retards
20:52:35 <alise> you can't tweak anything despite it being almost impossible to use
20:52:36 -!- Flonk has joined.
20:52:38 <cheater99> what's worst is that they're trying to be a dj/live production thing
20:52:41 <cheater99> but they suck at dj
20:52:43 <alise> so you get to enter the even worse parts of the interface
20:52:43 <cheater99> they suck at live
20:52:46 <cheater99> and they suck at production
20:52:50 <alise> cheater99: Autechre use Ableton in live performances
20:52:59 <alise> which, uh, props to them because that shit sounds painfully impossible to me
20:53:17 <alise> wonder if they use max/msp live too
20:53:24 <alise> HOW FAST CAN I MOVE THIS MOUSE TO THIS TEXT BOX AND TWEAK THE VALUE
20:53:25 <cheater99> autechre is not something i'd consider an influence to myself
20:53:33 <alise> autechre are awesome
20:53:41 <cheater99> you know what's awesome?
20:53:54 <cheater99> when i turn up the resonance knob, my tb303's sequencer slows down
20:53:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Look Around You?
20:53:57 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
20:54:01 <cheater99> because the batteries are half empty.
20:54:04 <cheater99> that's awesome.
20:54:05 <Phantom_Hoover> O GOD I AM BECOMING SGEO
20:54:07 <alise> cheater99: http://dailyjs.com/images/posts/autechre.jpg <-- Max/MSP patches by Autechre
20:54:10 <Phantom_Hoover> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
20:54:11 <alise> Why does it have a colour picker? I DON'T KNOW
20:54:24 <cheater99> i've done better
20:54:32 <Phantom_Hoover> KILL ME WHILE I STILL HAVE SOME HOOVERITY LEFT
20:54:35 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, how so?
20:55:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Name a language!
20:55:19 <alise> Come to think of it, I basically want Logo with a bit more syntactic sugar. ...wait, I just said I want REBOL.
20:55:19 <cheater99> i've done patches full of text entry boxes
20:55:21 <alise> I TAKE IT BACK I TAKE IT
20:55:25 <cheater99> and that's across like 3 screens.
20:55:32 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, Nemerle!
20:55:39 <alise> cheater99: but what that outputs probably counts as music to most people >:)
20:55:42 <alise> (yours, that is)
20:55:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Disclaimer: I have no knowledge of Nemerle whatsoever.
20:55:55 <cheater99> actually
20:55:57 <alise> Æ TRANSCEND YOUR MERE PERCEPTIONS OF MUSIC
20:56:01 <cheater99> it was an additive synthesizer
20:56:14 <cheater99> for researching on inharmonic spectra
20:56:25 <cheater99> which is very important to the musicality of computer music
20:56:48 <cheater99> once electronic instruments can reliably generate inharmonic spectra, the world of electronic music will change forever
20:57:24 <alise> that made no sense to me at all.
20:58:26 <cheater99> 99.99999999999999999999% of all sounds generated with electronic means are either noise, or harmonic spectra, or derivations from those, or recordings.
20:58:56 <alise> i like noise.
20:59:00 <alise> so what's inharmonic spectra
20:59:11 <cheater99> if you have a sound, it has partials
20:59:26 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I think it's something to do with its timbre.
20:59:43 <Phantom_Hoover> According to the first result on Google.
20:59:46 <cheater99> the frequency and the loudness envelope of these partials is called the spectrum
20:59:55 <cheater99> it can be seen with a spectrograph
20:59:59 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99, is that correct?
21:00:05 <cheater99> yes
21:00:34 <Phantom_Hoover> So real instruments produce harmonic spectra, while computers produce inharmonic ones?
21:00:35 <cheater99> most sounds generated with syntesizers have harmonic spectra
21:00:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, other way round?
21:01:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Makes sense.
21:02:31 <cheater99> harmonic spectrum = repeating waveform
21:02:36 <cheater99> basically
21:02:50 <cheater99> a piano is stretched-harmonic. it is a special type of inharmonicity.
21:04:55 <cheater99> you have an almost-harmonic spectrum, except
21:05:04 <Phantom_Hoover> So electronic music is too precise, or what?
21:05:48 <cheater99> in a harmonic spectrum, the frequencies of partials are 1f, 2f, 3f, ...
21:06:07 <cheater99> in a stretched-harmonic spectrum it's 1af, 2af, 3af, 4af, ...
21:06:11 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]).
21:06:21 <cheater99> where a > 1
21:06:34 <cheater99> (of course you can also try a <1 and it'll sound nice too)
21:06:53 <cheater99> i think for a piano a is around between 1.001 and 1.1, not sure
21:06:58 <alise> WHY DOESN'T THIS HAVE AN OBVIOUS ANSWER
21:07:15 -!- tombom has joined.
21:07:18 <cheater99> alise: ?
21:07:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Different instruments have different spectra
21:07:30 <cheater99> well
21:07:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Computers have different types of spectra to real instruments.
21:07:46 <cheater99> i find that it's mostly about the "a" rather than the levels
21:08:11 <Phantom_Hoover> I think that's basically it.
21:08:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, and cheater99 plans to discover how to generate inharmonic spectra with a computer and make 5 billion currencies.
21:10:45 <cheater99> yes
21:11:05 <cheater99> it is currently not being achieved on a computer
21:11:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Why?
21:11:16 <cheater99> it is a very difficult problem computationally
21:11:23 <cheater99> the additive method needs umpteens of partials
21:11:42 <cheater99> and the physical method (simulate a string with weight) is out of reach
21:11:46 <cheater99> (that i know of)
21:13:49 <Phantom_Hoover> And wind instruments?
21:13:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: >SPIT OUT RANDOM LANGUAGE
21:14:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I already spat out Nemerle.
21:14:19 * Phantom_Hoover plays the flute and is constantly confused by the keyings for notes.
21:14:24 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:16:34 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:17:13 <alise> hi ais523!
21:17:29 <alise> ais523: name a (non-eso) language, please
21:18:24 <ais523> alise: Perl
21:18:27 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, WHAT, NEMERLE NOT RANDOM ENOUGH
21:18:30 <ais523> wait, you said non-eso
21:18:31 <Phantom_Hoover> *?
21:18:34 <ais523> umm, ADA
21:19:10 <alise> ais523: okay, non-eso but including Perl and languages of similar esoity; can i have another?
21:19:12 <alise> Also, it's Ada.
21:19:24 <ais523> alise: but the entire language is in allcaps
21:19:29 <ais523> alise: m4
21:19:34 <alise> ada?
21:19:36 <alise> no it isn't
21:19:47 <Sgeo> Factor
21:19:48 <alise> ais523: err, ok, strengthen non-eso constraint a bit more
21:19:49 <ais523> alise: actually, I think it's case-insensitive
21:19:54 <alise> with Ada.Text_IO;
21:19:55 <alise>
21:19:55 <alise> procedure Hello is
21:19:55 <alise> begin
21:19:55 <alise> Ada.Text_IO.Put_Line("Hello, world!");
21:19:55 <alise> end Hello;
21:19:57 <ais523> but all the Ada code I've seen has been in allcaps
21:20:01 <ais523> C#
21:20:15 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, Prolog.
21:20:20 <Sgeo> LSL
21:20:25 <alise> conclusion: on average, a randomly-picked language is not suitable for your project
21:20:35 <ais523> alise: I agree
21:20:38 <Phantom_Hoover> PRO. LOG.
21:20:46 <ais523> this is why I don't use the same lang for everything
21:20:59 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, follow cpressey's philosophy on C++.
21:21:00 <ais523> OTOH, there's generally more than one lang suitable for any given project
21:21:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Objective C.
21:21:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Objective C++!
21:21:35 <Phantom_Hoover> D!
21:22:37 <ais523> hmm, does objective C++ actually exist?
21:23:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I've seen in mentioned in OS X docs.
21:23:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't remember if it was actually a langage.
21:23:38 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> alise, follow cpressey's philosophy on C++. ;; wat?
21:23:42 <Phantom_Hoover> *language.
21:23:43 <alise> ais523: yes, for compatibility
21:23:46 <alise> with C++ libs
21:23:47 <ais523> ah, OK
21:23:58 <ais523> I couldn't think of a plausible reason for it to exist, but that's one
21:25:39 <ais523> wow, DNS root server H was down for around 18 hours
21:25:50 <ais523> and that's the one owned by the US Army
21:26:00 <alise> how reassuring!
21:26:00 <ais523> the root servers going down is pretty rare...
21:26:09 <alise> It's the terrists.
21:26:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Obviously the nuclear holocaust is mere hours away.
21:27:23 * Phantom_Hoover continues thinking about graph-based esolangs.
21:27:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oklopol
21:27:45 <alise> Graphica
21:27:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Am I an oklo?
21:27:51 <alise> Eodermdrome
21:28:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oklopol's Graphica and ais523 's Eodermdrome
21:28:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Link?
21:29:12 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/graphica.txt is so useless words fail me.
21:29:13 <alise> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/graphica.txt
21:29:15 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome
21:29:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: there are also some vjn.fi/pb links by oklopol with graphica code in them in the logs
21:30:05 <alise> WHY NOT READ OKLOTALK-- CODE INSTEAD
21:30:06 <alise> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/oklotalk--.txt
21:30:10 <alise> BECAUSE THE LISTS ARE MINE
21:30:37 <ais523> IIRC, Eodermdrome still hasn't been implemented
21:30:45 <ais523> although someone (oerjan?) wrote a program in it to prove TCness
21:31:00 <Phantom_Hoover> What languages would be good for graph manipulation?
21:31:14 <Phantom_Hoover> My brain has failed me on this.
21:31:20 <alise> ais523: oerjan, yeah
21:32:34 <alise> <-- (greater/less) (or equal to/than) -->
21:32:37 <alise> -- oklotalk--.txt
21:32:37 <alise> lol
21:33:53 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: this is probably why eodermdrome wasn't implemented
21:34:00 <ais523> because nobody can think of a lang that's remotely good to implement it in
21:34:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I've seen some snippets of graphy code in Prolog...
21:34:44 <Phantom_Hoover> (A fact represents a connection betwixt nodes.)
21:34:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you could also just have
21:34:58 <alise> arc(a,b)
21:35:07 <alise> and e.g. value(a,42).
21:35:08 <Phantom_Hoover> But Prolog doesn't like interfacing with the outside world very much.
21:35:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it does it alright...
21:35:21 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, that is the point.
21:35:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i thought you meant like
21:35:36 <alise> a(b)
21:35:38 <alise> is arc(a,b)
21:35:39 <alise> which is bizarre
21:35:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Presumably asserts would be used to parse
21:35:45 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, of course not.
21:35:49 <alise> yeah, and dynamic
21:35:50 <alise> did it have
21:35:55 <alise> arc(A,B) :- arc(B,A).
21:35:57 <alise> ?
21:36:00 <alise> or was it directional
21:36:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I think it was.
21:36:18 <Phantom_Hoover> But we can do it that way.
21:36:28 <alise> bah markup formats suck!
21:37:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I love the Prolog pathfinding code:
21:37:59 <alise> path(A, B) :- arc(A, B).
21:38:00 <alise> path(A, B) :- path(A, C), path(C, B).
21:38:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Prolog is cool; this is indisputable.
21:38:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Utterly impractical, but so, so cool.
21:40:19 * alise debugs his path *recording* code
21:41:15 <alise> | ?- find_path(a,d,R).
21:41:15 <alise> R = [[a|d]] ? ; (forever)
21:41:18 <alise> that should not happen...
21:41:23 <alise> find_path(A, B, [[A|B]]) :- arc(A, B).
21:41:23 <alise> find_path(A, B, [[A|C]|R]) :-
21:41:23 <alise> find_path(A, C, R1),
21:41:23 <alise> find_path(C, B, R2),
21:41:23 <alise> append(R1, R2, R).
21:41:44 <cheater99> alise
21:42:01 <cheater99> is she cute http://tinyurl.com/2vqdepz
21:42:24 <alise> sheesh, i was even being on-topic
21:42:31 <alise> (Prolog counts as esoteric, right?)
21:42:40 <cheater99> not trying hard enough
21:42:59 <cheater99> it has existed for more than 1 year
21:43:02 <cheater99> AND has more than 100 users
21:43:06 <cheater99> :-/
21:44:14 <alise> i'm not sure anyone really uses prolog.
21:44:16 <alise> prolog uses them.
21:45:35 <Phantom_Hoover> How would one delete nodes for this?
21:45:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: retract
21:45:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Presumably you would need to deassert every arc containing them.
21:46:09 <cheater99> alise: it's not nice to not answer questions :(
21:46:12 <alise> ohh, wait, my path code is right
21:46:21 <alise> since it's not directional
21:46:29 <alise> cheater99: why are you asking, why me, and why in here?
21:46:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, assert(arc(a,b)).
21:46:45 <Phantom_Hoover> retract(a).
21:46:51 <Phantom_Hoover> arc(a,b).
21:47:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Still true.
21:47:13 <cheater99> alise: because i wonder what you think!
21:47:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: reatract(arc(a,b))
21:47:21 <alise> *retract
21:47:22 <alise> durr
21:47:25 <cheater99> just randomly
21:47:26 <alise> cheater99: why?
21:47:33 <cheater99> (you were the first person i saw talking on irc)
21:47:45 <Vorpal> alise, see /msg
21:47:59 <alise> | ?- path(a,x).
21:47:59 <alise> Fatal Error: local stack overflow (size: 8192 Kb, environment variable used: LOCALSZ)
21:48:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there actually a way of getting away with non-tail recursion?
21:48:40 <alise> sure
21:48:42 <alise> path(A, B) :- path(A, C), path(C, B), !.
21:49:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I meant generally.
21:49:05 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:49:32 <alise> | ?- find_path(a, d, R).
21:49:32 <alise> R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ?
21:49:40 <alise> R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ?
21:49:43 <alise> R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ?
21:49:43 <alise> lol
21:50:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: there's also retractall
21:50:34 <alise> http://bulba.sdsu.edu/prolog/parsing/recursion_and_assertion.htm
21:50:47 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, retract(arc(a,X)).
21:50:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: retractall
21:51:00 <alise> retractall(arc(a,_)).
21:51:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I see no particular difference there...
21:52:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Gyah, I've forgotten what cut does.
21:53:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: forgets about all backtracking opportunities
21:53:15 <alise> won't go back before the cut
21:53:19 <alise> and if it fails after that, it'll just fail.
21:53:49 <Vorpal> <alise> R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ?
21:53:49 <Vorpal> <alise> R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ?
21:53:49 <Vorpal> <alise> R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ?
21:53:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, your thing to make arcs undirected obviously leads to an infinite loop.
21:53:49 <Vorpal> um
21:53:58 <Vorpal> that seems incredibly messy
21:54:01 <alise> Vorpal: it's just paths...
21:54:05 <Vorpal> alise, ah
21:54:14 <Vorpal> alise, thought you had written code like that :P
21:55:32 <zzo38> If I have an account on LTSP and it log in using the Ubuntu GUI, how to set environment variables global to the account?
21:55:53 <alise> zzo38: .profile
21:56:41 <Vorpal> LTSP?
21:56:46 <zzo38> Does all environment variables set in .profile affect all programs running in the session for that account?
21:56:47 <Vorpal> that sounds familiar
21:56:50 <Vorpal> what was it now again
21:57:03 <zzo38> Linux Terminal Server Project
21:58:10 <Vorpal> hm so thin clients?
21:58:12 <Vorpal> okay
21:59:28 <alise> <zzo38> Does all environment variables set in .profile affect all programs running in the session for that account?
21:59:30 <alise> .xinitrc too
21:59:36 <alise> if you use X
21:59:47 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, did you ever actually write down Eodermdrone's command set?
22:00:18 <ais523> I wrote it on the wiki, didn't I?
22:00:36 <ais523> yep
22:00:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Not as far as I can see...
22:00:39 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome
22:00:50 <ais523> it doesn't actually have any commands, that's a complete description of how it works
22:00:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, I kind of see it.
22:00:59 <ais523> what makes you think all esolangs have to be based on commands?
22:01:05 <zzo38> It is X; that is what the terminal loads. It uses the graphical login screen and then loads that account in the X session (I think it is the GNOME session). I configured my account to start the bash terminal window at login, but I don't know how to make it automatically maximize the window.
22:02:03 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, no, I just skimmed the syntax section.
22:02:19 <Phantom_Hoover> So I assumed that there was a predefined command set.
22:04:39 <Phantom_Hoover> So, do I start on the parser or the interpreter?
22:05:53 <alise> what parser?
22:06:01 <Sgeo> Everything seems much less crashy without Compiz
22:06:19 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, for Eodermdrome.
22:06:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: what parser?
22:06:47 <Phantom_Hoover> The one that goes from list of characters to assertions in Prolog.
22:06:57 <Phantom_Hoover> *a list
22:07:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: using dcgs i hope
22:07:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Distributed Common Ground Systems?
22:07:59 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolog#Parser_example
22:09:13 <zzo38> Is theree a way to disable all of the options in the menu and use .xinitrc instead?
22:09:22 <alise> zzo38: maybe.
22:09:26 <alise> maybe not.
22:10:17 <zzo38> O, it says graphical login manager do not use .xinitrc it says I need .xsession instead.
22:10:58 -!- augur has joined.
22:11:31 <Sgeo> It took way too long for Akinator to guess "Yes-man" "Some Guy Who Always Presses "Yes""
22:15:32 <zzo38> (Also, I do not have administrative privilege on that computer)
22:16:03 <alise> Languages suck.
22:17:42 <alise> ais523: Please make a language that doesn't suck.
22:19:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Why do they suck this time?
22:19:36 <alise> All reasons!
22:20:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Let's focus on a specific area.
22:20:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Why do arithmetic operators suck?
22:21:43 <alise> Because.
22:23:20 <Phantom_Hoover> What sucks about the + operator?
22:23:25 <alise> EVERYTHING
22:23:35 <Vorpal> alise, such as?
22:23:37 <ais523> it requires multithreading to implement efficiently in INTERCAL
22:23:43 <alise> ais523: yes, that.
22:23:44 <Vorpal> alise, what? +?
22:23:49 <Vorpal> err
22:23:50 <Vorpal> ais523, ^
22:24:05 <ais523> Vorpal: two threads; one to do the addition, the other to check when it's finished
22:24:10 <Vorpal> ais523, haha
22:24:22 <Vorpal> ais523, is that what the standard library does?
22:24:27 <ais523> no, it uses a less efficient version
22:24:31 <ais523> no threading in the stdlib
22:24:36 <Vorpal> ais523, but you optimise it?
22:24:38 <Vorpal> iirc
22:24:47 <ais523> it doesn't optimise all the way down to addition
22:24:55 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, INTERCAL doesn't suck!
22:24:55 <Vorpal> ais523, oh? why not?
22:24:57 <ais523> (unless you link a stdlib written in C rather than INTERCAL)
22:25:00 <Vorpal> hm
22:25:04 <ais523> Vorpal: because it only optimises individual statements
22:25:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Nor does dc!
22:25:12 <ais523> and INTERCAL addition requires a loop (or a very very very large expression)
22:25:14 <Vorpal> ais523, ah
22:25:25 * Sgeo murders Flash
22:25:39 <ais523> I think the stdlib version loops once per bit
22:25:47 <ais523> I think the stdlib version loops once per bit
2010-10-03
00:01:38 <oerjan> <alise> yeah oerjan realised that you dipshit <-- well strictly speaking i only realized it after putting it into HackEgo
00:05:05 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:05:23 -!- augur has joined.
00:05:28 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:15:42 <Vorpal> <oerjan> argh the logs cut off about an hour and a half ago <-- someone mail the guy to fix clog, it's broken
00:15:50 <Vorpal> oerjan, you do it
00:15:55 <Vorpal> oerjan, I don't have his mail
00:16:07 <oerjan> neither do i
00:16:15 <Vorpal> who do then
00:16:17 <Vorpal> does*
00:16:33 <Vorpal> <ais523> for instance, for a while there was a standard request for passengers to shift their weight to the left, because otherwise the doors wouldn't close <-- awesome
00:16:53 * Sgeo doesn't particularly have much weight to shift
00:17:05 * Sgeo is 111 lbs last he checked
00:17:32 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what is that in the SI system units?
00:17:53 <pikhq> Vorpal: ~50kg
00:18:00 <Vorpal> ah
00:18:05 <Vorpal> that's tiny indeed
00:18:11 * Vorpal is closer to 85 kg
00:18:18 <Vorpal> but then I'm tall
00:18:27 * pikhq is something like 80kg
00:18:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, 189.5 cm
00:18:59 <pikhq> Vorpal: 180 cm or so
00:19:08 <Vorpal> ah, so you are short :P
00:19:14 <Vorpal> (well not really)
00:19:26 <pikhq> For certain definitions of "short", perhaps. Ones set by giants, for instance.
00:19:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, indeed!
00:20:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, I wish I had grown to 190 cm. 189.5 is *soo close*
00:20:09 <Vorpal> it is annoying me
00:20:41 <pikhq> What annoys me is non-SI units.
00:21:14 <pikhq> Especially ambiguous ones.
00:21:57 <pikhq> A pound of feathers is heavier than a pound of gold.
00:22:02 <pikhq> Why!
00:23:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, what
00:23:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about a pound of pounds?
00:23:22 <pikhq> A pound of feathers is 454g. A pound of gold is 373g.
00:23:25 <Vorpal> does that count as gold?
00:23:44 <pikhq> Because precious metals are measured in troy weights, not avoirdupois weights.
00:23:50 <pikhq> But both use the same names for their units.
00:24:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, "avoirdupois weights" <-- really? is it different from normal pounds of other stuff?
00:25:06 <pikhq> The avoirdupois system of weight units is the typical one.
00:25:13 <pikhq> Troy is used for precious metals.
00:26:13 <Vorpal> ah
00:26:13 <pikhq> But, an ounce of feathers is lighter than an ounce of gold.
00:26:46 <pikhq> 28 g and 31g, respectively.
00:27:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, is this what you use? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:English_mass_units_graph.svg
00:27:20 <pikhq> 16 avoirdupois ounces to the avoirdupois pound, 12 troy ounces to the troy pound.
00:27:23 <pikhq> Uuugggh.
00:28:17 <Vorpal> haha
00:28:40 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, except that ony avoirdupois and troy units are in common use today, and the grain, scruple, pennyweight, shilling, mark, dram, clove, nail, stone, quarter, tod, hundredweight, and sack are obnoxious archaicisms in the US.
00:29:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, :D
00:29:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, you should start using those, just to annoy people. With metric prefixes
00:29:26 <pikhq> The kilograin? :D
00:29:27 <Vorpal> like a kiloclove
00:29:34 <Vorpal> pikhq, or that!
00:29:56 <pikhq> Vorpal: Oh, it gets worse. The ounce is also a couple units of volume.
00:30:02 <Vorpal> heh
00:30:08 <Vorpal> what is the mark?
00:30:14 <Vorpal> about how large is it in metric units
00:30:32 <pikhq> Vorpal: An ounce of water != 1 ounce of ice, in volume.
00:30:42 <Vorpal> I have no mental picture of the magnitude of these units
00:30:53 <Vorpal> which i do have for the SI system
00:31:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, "decisack", the word is awesome
00:32:48 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:33:04 <pikhq> Vorpal: Because the fluid ounce is 29.5 ml, and the dry ounce is 31 ml.
00:33:12 <Vorpal> ugh
00:33:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, why on earth
00:33:19 <pikhq> (note: dry units of volume not in common use)
00:33:31 <pikhq> (aside from the peck & the bushel)
00:33:43 <Vorpal> "peck & the bushel"?
00:34:06 <pikhq> Used for measuring agricultural yields.
00:34:13 <Vorpal> heh
00:34:17 <pikhq> For instance, bushels of wheat, pecks of fruit.
00:34:26 <Vorpal> pikhq, iirc mostly m^3 here
00:35:00 <pikhq> Oh, and a barrel of oil is not the same volume as a barrel of water, which is not the same volume as a barrel of wheat.
00:35:13 <pikhq> 158L, 119L, 115L, respectively.
00:35:23 <Vorpal> wtf
00:35:28 <Vorpal> pikhq, you are so crazy
00:35:36 <Vorpal> why do you keep using that system
00:35:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: People claim it makes more sense.
00:35:47 <pikhq> Honest to God.
00:36:08 <pikhq> Oh, also: 1 mile on land is not the same distance as a mile on sea.
00:36:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes but people write "nautical mile" when they mean it
00:36:31 <pikhq> 1.6km and 1.8km, respectively.
00:36:34 <Vorpal> they don't call it mile
00:36:39 <pikhq> True, but still.
00:36:55 <Vorpal> at least in aviation nm is used as the unit on instruments and such
00:36:59 <Vorpal> which is kind of fun
00:37:05 <Vorpal> since it is not nanometer
00:37:10 <Vorpal> but nautical mile
00:38:34 <pikhq> I should note that there is no convenient conversion between cubic inches & units of volume.
00:39:01 <Vorpal> only to be expected with a system that wasn't designed but grew over time
00:39:06 <pikhq> (unlike how 1L = 1dm)
00:39:29 <pikhq> There *is* an easy conversion between units of volume and masses of water, though.
00:39:47 <pikhq> 1 fl oz. of water is about 1 oz. of water
00:39:59 <pikhq> (it used to be exact before redefining the units in terms of SI)
00:39:59 <Vorpal> "about"
00:40:05 <Vorpal> ah
00:41:21 <pikhq> Much like how 1L used to be 1kg of water before the SI units were defined more exactly.
00:42:17 <Vorpal> indeed
00:42:21 <pikhq> Oh, you want even more of a headache?
00:42:32 <Vorpal> heh, go ahead
00:42:44 <pikhq> Each Commonwealth nation using customary units has their own definitions of them.
00:43:11 <pikhq> Oh, s/Commonweatlh/
00:43:12 <Vorpal> how nice
00:43:15 <pikhq> Erm. Anyways.
00:43:40 <pikhq> A tablespoon in Canada is 15ml. In US, 14.79ml. According to the FDA (a US government agency), 15ml. In Australia, 20ml.
00:44:00 <pikhq> A US gallon is 3785ml. A UK gallon is 4546ml.
00:44:20 <Vorpal> that's quite a large difference
00:45:02 <pikhq> Fortunately, the length and weight units were fixed by international treaty, so the only distinctions there are land/nautical and avoirdupois/troy.
00:45:35 <Vorpal> btw, I should start using kiloseconds, it makes a lot more sense than minutes and hours
00:45:57 <pikhq> ... No, wait, the weight units are *almost* the same. A UK hundredweight is 112lb, and a US hundredweight is 100lb.
00:46:17 <pikhq> And in both, a ton is 20 hundredweights.
00:46:22 <pikhq> So close and yet so far.
00:46:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, over here a ton is 1000 kg. And a mile is 10 km
00:46:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's the metric ton.
00:46:46 <pikhq> :)
00:46:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, and a scandinavian mile
00:46:59 <pikhq> The Us also uses metric tons.
00:47:24 <pikhq> The only thing we abhor more than sane units is consistent units!
00:48:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_mile
00:48:28 <Vorpal> quite a nice unit, if anyone else used it
00:48:40 <Vorpal> it is a nice size to be useful
00:48:48 <pikhq> Quite a reasonable unit.
00:48:52 <Vorpal> indeed
00:49:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, and useful on the distances found in Sweden
00:49:07 <pikhq> Even if it is hectometer.
00:49:17 <Vorpal> like, two mil to university for me
00:49:19 <pikhq> Erm.
00:49:20 <pikhq> Megameter.
00:49:21 <Vorpal> or about that
00:49:24 <Sgeo> The data on my HD is degrading as we speak?
00:49:32 <pikhq> Erm.
00:49:34 <pikhq> THINK JOSIAH
00:49:44 <pikhq> DONT FUCKING SCREW UP POWERS OF 10
00:49:54 <Vorpal> You have: 10 km
00:49:54 <Vorpal> You want: megameter
00:49:54 <Vorpal> * 0.01
00:49:54 <Sgeo> And don't yell at me, yell at my dad on my behalf please
00:50:15 <pikhq> Why aren't there SI prefixes for every power of 10 in a useful range?
00:50:20 <Vorpal> You have: 10 km
00:50:20 <Vorpal> You want: hectometer
00:50:20 <Vorpal> * 100
00:50:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, because um, imagine having name for everything between giga and yotta, instad of just a few
00:51:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, result: even sillier names than "yotta"
00:51:11 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's powers of 1000.
00:51:17 <Vorpal> and that would be bad
00:52:04 <pikhq> Anyways.
00:52:11 -!- augur_ has joined.
00:52:32 * oerjan points out that nautical mile actually _is_ a logical unit. well approximately.
00:52:46 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh?
00:52:54 <pikhq> Vorpal: It gets worse if you start trying to do physics using traditional units.
00:53:07 <Vorpal> Sweden used to use metric units for flight, we don't any longer because no one else does
00:53:18 <oerjan> it's originally the length of one minute of arc of a meridian, useful for sea maps
00:53:22 <olsner> you can always combine deka/deci and hecto/centi with the standard prefixes
00:53:27 <Vorpal> basically it screwed up for altitude calculations with about everyone else
00:53:59 <Vorpal> oh Soviet was completely metric too
00:54:04 <Vorpal> for flight
00:54:11 <Vorpal> but that was about it
00:54:25 <oerjan> olsner: by "you can always" you mean "it's not actually permitted to" afaik
00:54:44 <Vorpal> oerjan, dekakilometer?
00:54:45 <Vorpal> XD
00:54:55 <pikhq> Vorpal: ft^2°Fh/BTU, anyone?
00:54:56 <olsner> not actually permitted? who has the power to forbid this?
00:54:58 <Vorpal> or kilodekameter perhaps
00:55:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, what?
00:55:21 <oerjan> it's not part of the standard, anyway
00:55:29 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:55:40 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's a unit of thermal resistance. The foot-squared degree Fahrenheit hour per British Thermal Unit.
00:55:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, still flight use two units of pressure, and instruments are commonly marked with both SI units (hPa iirc) and inHg
00:56:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, what is the SI unit for it?
00:56:22 <pikhq> Km^2/W
00:56:24 <Vorpal> ah
00:56:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, what is "British Thermal Unit" exactly?
00:57:17 <pikhq> 1055.056 J
00:57:21 <Vorpal> aha
00:57:25 <Vorpal> how silly
00:57:40 <Vorpal> pikhq, now if SI could just get rid of the kg prototype
00:57:46 <pikhq> (1055.05585262 in the UK)
00:57:56 <Vorpal> define it in terms of some natural constants or such
00:58:08 <oerjan> it's the heat production corresponding to one second of british parliament discussion
00:58:12 <Vorpal> like has been done for all the other prototypes
00:58:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, shouldn't "British termal unit" refer to UK always?
00:58:55 <pikhq> Vorpal: Nope!
00:58:59 <pikhq> That would make sense!
00:59:02 <Vorpal> I mean, "UK British termal unit" is absurd
00:59:05 <augur_> Vorpal: they _have_ gotten rid of the kg prototype, i think
00:59:13 <pikhq> augur_: No, it's the remaining prototype.
00:59:19 <augur_> really
00:59:20 <augur_> interesting
00:59:22 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
00:59:37 <pikhq> There's currently debate over what possible replacement definition to use.
01:00:16 <pikhq> The ones I like most involve defining the Avogadro constant exactly.
01:03:39 <oerjan> number of atoms in a standard avocado
01:05:40 <oerjan> > iterate exp (-1/0)
01:05:41 <lambdabot> [-Infinity,0.0,1.0,2.718281828459045,15.154262241479262,3814279.104760214,I...
01:06:02 <augur> pikhq: do you have any interest in physics?
01:06:17 <pikhq> augur: Vague.
01:06:30 <pikhq> More practically, I am taking a physics course ATM, and as such have to care. :P
01:07:09 <augur> pikhq: check out some of Julian Barbour's work (links to follow)
01:07:16 <augur> The Case for Geometry: http://pirsa.org/index.php?p=media&url=http://streamer.perimeterinstitute.ca/Flash/9a93c428-c616-4dca-8713-915277e28056/viewer.html&pirsa=10050060&type=Flash%20Presentation
01:07:38 <augur> The deep and suggestive principles of Leibnizian philosophy: http://platonia.com/barbour_hrp2003.pdf
01:14:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:17:52 <alise> <augur_> Vorpal: they _have_ gotten rid of the kg prototype, i think
01:17:56 <alise> amusingly, it's actually getting lighter
01:18:07 <augur> alise: well, magic and all.
01:18:15 <augur> but wait.. HOW DO THEY KNOW?!
01:18:28 <augur> (i know how they know but it was funny to say XP)
01:18:41 <Vorpal> augur, correction "lighter relative it's replicas"
01:18:41 <pikhq> EVERYTHING ELSE IS GETTING HEAVIER
01:18:45 -!- lament has joined.
01:18:48 <alise> augur: their 1kg weights started getting lighter
01:18:49 <alise> EVERYWHERE
01:18:50 <Vorpal> which is indeed not absolute lighter
01:18:58 <Vorpal> alise, no
01:19:07 <alise> Vorpal: IT WAS A FUCKING JOKE
01:19:16 <Vorpal> alise, ah, I just read about this :P
01:19:17 <alise> i was saying that everything weighing 1kg in the world got lighter
01:20:07 <lament> nice topic
01:20:56 -!- theoros has joined.
01:21:02 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
01:21:06 <augur> ok im off
01:21:10 <augur> see you in a bit, peeps.
01:21:13 <augur> <3
01:21:14 <alise> bye augur
01:21:18 <alise> lament: why thank you
01:21:27 <Vorpal> lament, hi!
01:21:47 <oerjan> quark mating can be a bit up and down, you know
01:22:40 -!- theoros has left.
01:24:17 <alise> coppro: if I wrote a comprehensive, referenced errata for that ed in Python post, would it get published? or would i languish here in my infinite pit of despair, envying pizza
01:24:31 <oerjan> but it has its strange charm
01:25:11 <lament> /kick oerjan
01:25:22 <Sgeo> alise, you desire recognition!
01:25:40 <Sgeo> (Or, well, for what you work on to be useful)
01:25:41 <alise> no i don't
01:25:44 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
01:25:47 <alise> Sgeo: useful?
01:25:54 <alise> it'd be the most worthless piece of text ever written!
01:26:04 <oerjan> lament: do you mean i should quit while on top, or that i've already hit rock bottom?
01:26:06 <alise> a dry analysis of something probably written in three minutes for the hell of it!
01:26:24 <pikhq> Why does my computer insist that it's 19:26 while everything else insists it's 18:26?
01:26:27 <alise> <lament> /kick oerjan ;; Ha, ha, our op is retarded and can't type two /s.
01:26:37 <alise> pikhq: Your other computer is actually in a wormhole bubble across a timezone.
01:26:43 <Sgeo> Some clients don't use two //
01:26:43 <coppro> alise: probably both
01:26:47 <lament> oerjan: i mean i'm gonna beat you up red, green and blue
01:26:49 <Sgeo> Some clients also don't know of /say
01:26:54 <alise> pikhq: You will notice that if you eject the CD-ROM drive, it will disappear half-way through.
01:27:02 <alise> coppro: excellent, i shall get writing immediately
01:27:02 <Sgeo> And typing /msg #esoteric /whatever can be a prick
01:27:24 <alise> coppro: I cannot let this ridiculous Canadian sloppiness go uncorrected
01:27:33 <alise> Sgeo: "can be a prick"? Seriously?
01:27:35 <oerjan> lament: well i guess should expect being met with strong force
01:27:37 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
01:27:39 <oerjan> *i should
01:27:55 <Sgeo> alise, what?
01:28:01 <pikhq> ... Because my timezone got set wrong. Fuuuccck.
01:28:03 <Sgeo> I still don't swear like a sailor?
01:28:16 <alise> pikhq: No. Wormholes.
01:28:28 <alise> Sgeo: I don't think ANYBODY says that :P
01:28:33 <alise> Or if they do, they shouldn't.
01:28:37 <Vorpal> oerjan, XD
01:28:47 <Sgeo> I say it. Happy?
01:30:29 <alise> Sgeo: No.
01:30:47 <Vorpal> oerjan, I guess the mating quarks find each other charming? Though I guess it is a very strange topic to humans.
01:30:51 -!- dbelange has joined.
01:31:06 <Sgeo> alise, watched Sintel?
01:31:18 <Vorpal> Sgeo, is it released?
01:31:24 <oerjan> Vorpal: well sometimes they're just meson around
01:31:25 <Sgeo> Yes
01:31:31 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRsGyueVLvQ
01:31:33 <Vorpal> oerjan, :D
01:31:36 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
01:31:39 <Vorpal> Sgeo, not just the trailer?
01:31:48 <dbelange> Does anyone know befunge
01:31:48 <alise> coppro: [[Errata for the article "Python Implementation of ed" by *null, as
01:31:48 <alise> printed in issue 114.1 of the University of Waterloo Faculty of
01:31:49 <alise> Mathematics Student Newspaper mathNEWS.]]
01:31:53 <Sgeo> Is the trailer 14 minutes long?
01:31:54 <alise> If you want this title to be more precise, it can be.
01:32:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I thought youtube videos were limited to 10 minutes?
01:32:24 <pikhq> There we go.
01:32:27 <Vorpal> dbelange, yes
01:32:28 <Sgeo> This one is 14:48 somehow
01:32:32 <alise> Sgeo: no.
01:32:36 <Vorpal> dbelange, a lot of us do
01:32:37 <alise> Sgeo: not for registered thingybobs.
01:32:49 <Sgeo> alise, it's Vorpal who asked
01:33:08 <Vorpal> [download] Destination: eRsGyueVLvQ.video <-- wtf is .video
01:33:08 <Sgeo> But I didn't realize BlenderFoundation was a registered thingy
01:33:33 <Vorpal> $ file eRsGyueVLvQ.video
01:33:34 <Vorpal> eRsGyueVLvQ.video: ISO Media, MPEG v4 system, version 2
01:33:35 <Vorpal> huh
01:33:49 <Vorpal> "Your video output acceleration driver does not support the required resolution: 2048x872 pixels. The maximum supported resolution is 2046x872."
01:33:51 <Vorpal> yeargh
01:34:03 <lament> almost
01:34:30 <Vorpal> lament, indeed
01:34:35 <dbelange> Vorpal: I was wondering if Befunge is related to Bungie?
01:34:45 <dbelange> Is this mischan should I ask #alephone
01:34:47 <lament> why is dixon banned?
01:34:56 <Vorpal> dbelange, I have no idea what bungie is
01:35:03 <Vorpal> so I can't answer that
01:35:10 <dbelange> Anyone else
01:35:13 <dbelange> lament: ^
01:35:27 <lament> wtf is bungie
01:35:29 <Sgeo> This is the right chan for Befunge questions
01:35:33 <Sgeo> Wrong one for Bungie questions
01:35:50 <dbelange> Thats what I'm asking is, there a relation
01:36:05 <lament> probably not since nobody here knows what bungie is ??
01:36:13 <Sgeo> Considering that none of us have heard of Bungie, pro.. what lament said
01:36:15 <dbelange> I know Pfhortran is related with Bungie
01:36:19 <Sgeo> It rings a bell though
01:36:22 <lament> other than stretchy rope
01:36:28 <dbelange> lament lol
01:36:29 <coppro> alise: don't submit to me
01:36:31 <lament> are you talking about stretchy rope dbelange
01:36:36 * Sgeo Googles
01:36:40 <Sgeo> Some video game dev?
01:36:50 <alise> coppro: i am merely asking for feedback, you... you worthless bear-mauler
01:37:04 <Sgeo> Aha! Proof that several video games are made in Befunge!
01:37:09 <Sgeo> It can't be a coincidence
01:37:10 <alise> dbelange: wait, the company?
01:37:19 <dbelange> Yeah I'm wondering pretty much about video game developing in Befunge
01:37:23 <alise> Sgeo: bungie make marathon and halo
01:37:31 <dbelange> since it is pretty much a game already
01:37:36 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to GlennBeck.
01:37:37 <alise> dbelange: no relation whatsoever
01:37:39 -!- GlennBeck has changed nick to Sgeo.
01:37:41 <lament> you're in luck befunge is pretty much designed for video game development
01:37:41 <alise> wait, how is it even a game...
01:37:43 <Sgeo> Ok, that nick is registered
01:37:47 <alise> lament: xD
01:37:49 <dbelange> alise: But they did make Pfohrtran
01:37:57 <alise> it is -- hunt the wumpus!
01:38:15 <alise> dbelange: of which google knows nothing
01:38:27 <lament> didn't someone have like chess in befunge
01:38:40 <dbelange> alise: Pfhortran
01:38:59 <dbelange> Anyway befunge is like a basic RPG
01:38:59 <Sgeo> Ah, it's a language designed for video game stuff
01:39:11 <Vorpal> [0x1d378b0] avcodec decoder error: more than 5 seconds of late video -> dropping frame (computer too slow ?)
01:39:13 <Vorpal> aaaargh
01:39:27 <Vorpal> *goes to sintel website and downloads lower res*
01:39:36 <Vorpal> still now I get way less than my monitor
01:40:15 <Sgeo> I haden't even heard of Sintel until a celebrity tweeted about it :/
01:40:18 <alise> <dbelange> Anyway befunge is like a basic RPG ;; what?
01:40:24 <alise> Sgeo: why do you follow celebrities
01:40:50 <Sgeo> ...not sure
01:40:56 <Sgeo> Felicia Day, to be specific
01:41:03 <Sgeo> Not someone like Brittany Spears
01:41:13 <Sgeo> Or whoever
01:41:14 <dbelange> alise: Well you have a man who moves
01:41:35 <dbelange> and there are registers (could be HP, gold, ....)
01:41:42 <dbelange> Maybe this is a better example http://alfedenzia.com/scuttle/scuttle.html
01:42:23 <oerjan> dbelange: i guess you _could_ ask the inventor cpressey if he was inspired by RPGs, he sometimes comes here
01:42:44 <dbelange> Oh ok
01:43:01 <dbelange> Im wondering mostly tonight though (lol) about making befunge into a game
01:43:13 <dbelange> or bringing out its Inner Game XD
01:43:16 <lament> there's that other languague
01:43:17 <Sgeo> I'd love it if someone just came in here and asked about PSOX
01:43:21 <lament> what was it called
01:43:24 <Sgeo> Grainfimple?
01:43:26 <lament> with mouses and cheese and stuff
01:43:30 <oerjan> well why not, we've already made brainfuck into a game at least twice :D
01:43:36 <Sgeo> Oh
01:43:50 <oerjan> lament: Hunter?
01:43:55 <lament> Hunter, yes
01:44:11 <Sgeo> I'm partial to Taxi
01:44:20 <Sgeo> When it comes to those sort of langs
01:44:28 <dbelange> So like increment is treasure chest, decrement is orcs, ... etc
01:44:30 <lament> dbelange: http://catseye.tc/projects/hunter/doc/website_hunter.html
01:44:55 <oerjan> ah yes same author too
01:45:42 <alise> i am pretty sure dbelange is just fucking with us.
01:46:10 <dbelange> :(
01:46:30 <oerjan> alise: um it's not a weirder idea than many others around here...
01:46:35 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon).
01:47:04 -!- flippo has joined.
01:47:10 <dbelange> alise: fwiw my intentions are more noble than comp games
01:47:35 <lament> the reason dbelange is fucking with us is that he's not actually going to implement this
01:47:54 <alise> *noble*?
01:48:02 <Sgeo> Townsburg! http://www.bigzaphod.org/taxi/map-big.png
01:48:04 <dbelange> lament: I want to make befunge into a game for didactical reasons
01:48:11 <dbelange> have you read the Diamond Age
01:49:28 -!- bavarious has joined.
01:50:03 <dbelange> Any way I think that a computer game that teaches kids to think in terms of universal machines (TM or s-exps say) would be beneficial no?
01:50:36 <dbelange> I think most games that have been made with this goal in mind have only done regular languages or SOMETIMES context-free
01:51:21 * oerjan is reminded of http://worrydream.com/AlligatorEggs/
01:51:48 <Sgeo> Is Taxi TC?
01:52:52 * Sgeo would love to see turing machines kidified
01:53:02 <dbelange> so for a regular language you might have robot games, or a tower defence
01:53:50 <dbelange> but I think a 2d TM or stack-based thing (like befunge) where registers are HP or caches of trasure
01:54:00 <dbelange> and decrementers are orcs and traps
01:54:18 <dbelange> would be beneficial to kids learning to think
01:55:03 <Sgeo> But decrement isn't evil
01:55:17 <dbelange> it is if the stack is empty rofl
01:58:56 <lament> rofl ololo
02:00:11 <Vorpal> Sgeo, wrt sintel: meh, not what I expected
02:02:33 -!- augur has joined.
02:03:54 <lament> augur: hey we got another fag in the channel
02:04:01 * lament points at dbelange
02:04:19 <Vorpal> lament, nasty thing you did there
02:04:20 <augur> so thats 100% of the channel still, then, ey?
02:04:58 <dbelange> what
02:05:05 <Vorpal> dbelange, also pop on empty stack in befunge is just pop 0. If that is what you meant.
02:05:25 <Vorpal> anything on empty stack acts as if it popped 0
02:05:31 <dbelange> well ok
02:05:36 <pikhq> Lé sigh. US poverty rates hit 14% of the population.
02:05:38 <dbelange> then how do you die
02:05:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, I read that as "USB poverty" first XD
02:05:53 <augur> pikhq: hooray!
02:06:04 <lament> puberty rates
02:06:06 <Vorpal> dbelange, um you mean exit? @
02:06:20 <Vorpal> dbelange, or in befunge-98 you can use q, which pops an exit code
02:06:34 <Vorpal> both befunge93 and befunge98 has @
02:06:35 <dbelange> no I think some crash would be better
02:06:37 <Vorpal> which takes no parameter
02:06:41 <Vorpal> parameters*
02:06:44 <dbelange> befunge must have bugs
02:06:46 <lament> http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2004
02:07:03 <Vorpal> dbelange, hopefully not, since I maintain a befunge-98 implementation
02:07:39 <Vorpal> dbelange, anyway, you might want to design a fungoid then
02:08:58 <dbelange> No I don't want to build it from the ground "up"
02:10:18 <dbelange> I just think with the proper interpertation and tileset (or diablo style gfx) it would be useful
02:10:23 <Vorpal> eh
02:10:25 <Vorpal> what
02:10:37 <Vorpal> tileset?
02:10:39 <Vorpal> huh
02:10:51 <oerjan> for graphics...
02:10:51 <Vorpal> you plan on displaying the running program?
02:10:53 <Vorpal> interesting
02:11:02 <Sgeo> You'd also want an implementation that displays ongoing internals probably
02:11:13 <Vorpal> what is wrong with ASCII graphics?
02:11:25 <Sgeo> Kids might not like it, I guess
02:11:35 <dbelange> Vorpal have you read the Diamond Age
02:11:38 <Vorpal> also how do you display ongoing internals? Befunge-98 has at least 2^32 * 2^23
02:11:41 <Vorpal> for the funge space
02:11:45 <Vorpal> you can't display that
02:11:47 <Vorpal> you just can't
02:11:52 <dbelange> the key is to slowly develop it more and more so that at first it's like 3d
02:11:57 <dbelange> but then it is ascii
02:12:04 <dbelange> and then it is 1010101
02:12:09 <Vorpal> I never heard of "diamond age"
02:12:11 <Sgeo> I meant the stack (there's a stack, right?)
02:12:30 <lament> dbelange: and then it's just 0000000
02:12:42 <dbelange> The display is centered on the player, liek diablo
02:12:42 <lament> and then it's just Om
02:12:48 <oerjan> um i think for this limiting fungespace to screen size is ok. or maybe panning...
02:13:00 <dbelange> or ultima
02:13:31 <oerjan> dbelange: there are a number of avid nethack players in the channel
02:13:44 <dbelange> what is nethack
02:13:57 <Vorpal> ....
02:14:18 <Vorpal> I seem to remember reading that diablo was inspired by nethack
02:14:35 <oerjan> a 2d game with ascii graphics, afaiu. but otherwise very complicated.
02:14:40 <dbelange> Probably the other way around, diablo is pretty old
02:14:47 <dbelange> like the oldest
02:14:49 <Vorpal> dbelange, no. nethack is older
02:14:54 <Vorpal> dbelange, 1980s
02:15:17 <Vorpal> still developed of course
02:15:22 <Vorpal> for some values of developed
02:15:24 <coppro> lol dbelange
02:15:46 <alise> coppro, our inside man
02:15:54 <Vorpal> coppro, yeah that last comment basically made me label him mentally as "newbie and/or troll"
02:15:55 <pikhq> Nethack's 10 years older than Diablo.
02:15:56 <alise> exposing the true nature of the criminals
02:16:33 <alise> Vorpal: /msg about the fish plan
02:16:45 <pikhq> Diablo's not even the oldest game *from Blizzard*.
02:17:03 <dbelange> It says nethack was released in 2003??
02:17:12 <Vorpal> dbelange, last version of it
02:17:12 <alise> dbelange: try 1987
02:17:15 <Vorpal> not the original version
02:17:17 <dbelange> Neither "1980s" nor "active developing"
02:17:25 <alise> NetHack is a single-player roguelike video game originally released in 1987. It is a descendant of an earlier game called Hack (1985), which is a descendant of Rogue (1980).[2] Salon describes it as "one of the finest gaming experiences the computing world has to offer."[2]
02:17:36 <alise> and it's really just a modified Hack, which is 1982
02:17:43 <dbelange> 1985
02:17:48 <alise> no
02:17:52 <alise> Hack was created in 1982 by Jay Fenlason with the assistance of Kenny Woodland, Mike Thome, and Jonathan Payne. A greatly extended version was posted on Usenet in 1984 by Andries Brouwer. It is licensed under a 3-clause BSD-like license.[1]
02:17:58 <alise> 1985 is the release of Hack that NetHack is based on
02:17:59 <dbelange> It is a descendant of an earlier game called Hack (1985),
02:18:14 <Sgeo> NetHack doesn't really center on the character. YOu know what does? Crawl
02:18:19 <Sgeo> alise hates me now
02:18:19 <alise> Hack (1982) --> another Hack release (1985) --> NetHack (1987) --> ... -> NetHack (2003)
02:18:25 <alise> dbelange: ^ i drew you a nice diagram
02:18:42 <dbelange> Fine, so now that you're done arguing about things that dont matter
02:18:45 <coppro> I find it difficult to believe that anyone with a taurine host hasn't heard of nethack
02:18:46 <dbelange> how about Befunge??
02:18:49 <Sgeo> Then again, the levels in NetHack aren't freakishly huge
02:18:55 <pikhq> And Hack's more an improvement on Rogue, which is from 1980.
02:19:28 <coppro> moreover, I find it much easier to believe that a CSCer is trolling
02:20:16 <alise> coppro: yes, but drawing diagrams is fun
02:20:19 <alise> so why not?
02:20:29 <alise> pikhq: hack's a total other game :P
02:20:31 <lament> ha ha dbelange
02:20:32 <dbelange> Set --> Grp --> Fag
02:20:44 <lament> you're in a club the membership in which implies you know Nethack
02:20:50 <alise> dbelange just set his groping option to fag
02:20:58 <pikhq> Hawt.
02:21:00 <alise> discuss
02:21:23 <oerjan> wait what is this Fag category
02:21:33 <dbelange> alise :: Fag --> Top
02:21:38 <Sgeo> -->
02:21:39 <oerjan> and what is the Grp --> Fag functor
02:21:40 <Sgeo> ??????
02:21:40 <alise> i was thinking categories there yeah
02:21:46 <alise> dbelange: is that meant to be haskell?
02:21:53 <Sgeo> WTF is --> ?????
02:22:01 <dbelange> it is a monad
02:22:02 <alise> wow it's actually quite fun to see Sgeo this confused
02:22:12 <Sgeo> dbelange, ....
02:22:15 * Sgeo facepalms
02:22:26 -!- dbelange has left ("Until next time").
02:22:33 <alise> i do believe there is some --> thing
02:22:33 <pikhq> Sgeo: Clearly an interesting type-level operator.
02:22:36 <alise> but i forget what
02:22:36 <oerjan> but Grp isn't a monad, you need an Eq restriction
02:22:46 <alise> well Sgeo got trolled
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02:24:14 <Sgeo> I feel guilty about driving someone away, even if that someone is a complete and utter moron
02:24:26 <Sgeo> And I still think that the thoughts about Befunge for kids might be a good idea
02:24:39 <Sgeo> Although Turing Machine for kids would be better imo
02:24:48 <oerjan> poe's law for esolangs :D
02:25:24 <alise> Sgeo: dude, he's not a moron, he was trolling
02:25:27 <alise> successfully, too
02:26:51 <coppro> very successfully
02:27:08 <Vorpal> alise, hey, what I'm supposed with the 200 kg salmon that arrived. UPS claims you are the sender!
02:28:35 <Vorpal> alise, ???
02:28:47 <alise> Vorpal: what
02:29:07 <alise> Vorpal: no, seriously ... what?
02:29:12 <Vorpal> alise, fish plan....
02:29:18 <alise> oh. ohhhhhhhhhhhh.
02:29:19 * Vorpal facepalms
02:29:26 <alise> i have too much of a headache to get that
02:29:36 <Vorpal> hm okay
02:29:38 <oerjan> wait trolls are not a subset of morons?
02:29:53 <alise> oerjan: most trolls are intelligent people pretending to be morons
02:30:11 <Vorpal> there are however a few morons that are trolls
02:30:18 <Vorpal> often rather failed ones
02:30:20 <alise> none are any good :P
02:30:28 <Vorpal> indeed
02:30:54 <Sgeo> What would it look like if I were to troll #esoteric ?
02:31:08 <Vorpal> it wouldn't work
02:31:10 <oerjan> NO ONE ANSWER THAT
02:31:18 <Vorpal> oerjan, okay
02:31:31 <Sgeo> Spiritual gunk, then when told otherwise, try to combine spirituality and computer science?
02:31:46 <Vorpal> nah, that's just pathetic
02:42:25 <oerjan> i have discovered something alise will surely find disturbing http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/dlsks/simon_peyton_jones_ghc_7_status_update_video/c115tsm
02:42:45 <alise> oh my
02:43:03 <alise> oerjan: stop distracting me, I have a mathNEWS article to write by Monday!
02:43:09 <alise> i'm totally getting paid for this you know
02:43:16 * oerjan watches alise's worldview shatter into incompatible pieces
02:44:18 <oerjan> or i would if he hadn't applied such hard-handed evasion tactics
02:45:35 <Sgeo> Even I find it disturbing
02:46:57 <Vorpal> oerjan, what's so earth shattering about it, I can't watch that link
02:47:22 <oerjan> sorry it's secret
02:47:46 <Vorpal> oerjan, I don't have flash...
02:48:18 <oerjan> reddit uses flash? mind you i haven't even looked at the video, just the comments
02:48:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, no the linked to page
02:48:32 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh that
02:48:39 <Vorpal> oerjan, but I don't see that anywhere?
02:48:44 <Vorpal> maybe in the video
02:48:47 <Vorpal> but not on the page
02:49:01 <oerjan> well it's a comment _about_ the video, obviously
02:49:05 <Vorpal> hm
02:49:46 <Vorpal> oerjan, but "[...] or Reddit communities."?
02:49:55 -!- bavarious has left ("bye").
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02:50:33 * oerjan wonders what the heck Vorpal is actually seeing on his screen
02:50:44 <oerjan> i just linked to a reddit comment sub-thread...
02:50:50 <Vorpal> oerjan, *oh*
02:52:24 <alise> lol Vorpal is stupid
02:52:26 <alise> also lacks flash
02:53:50 <GreaseMonkey> make a flash player before you recommend it to anyone
02:54:28 <oerjan> Vorpal: also Jameshfisher is obviously being sensationally argumentative like a lot of redditors, i just found what he pointed out amusing
02:56:40 <oerjan> the "[...] or Reddit communities." is just to complain about being downvoted
02:56:54 <Vorpal> ah right
02:56:59 <Vorpal> night
02:57:09 <oerjan> night
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03:18:40 <Sgeo> Obviously, hailtothethief is in fact Vorpal
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03:26:39 <oerjan> it's that time of year again http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11447095
03:28:27 * oerjan likes the Management Prize
03:29:56 <Sgeo> FUCK FIREFOX FUCK FLASH FUCK THE LACK OF SWAP SPACE
03:30:27 <GreaseMonkey> Sgeo: make a big file on your harddisk and then do swapon to it
03:30:36 <GreaseMonkey> i THINK you can do that
03:31:12 <Sgeo> My harddisk is a 2GB USB stick, with just 1GB of user data space, and .. about 100MB left
03:31:20 <Sgeo> But ty
03:33:25 <Sgeo> Hmm
03:33:33 <Sgeo> Maybe I should learn to play with Blender at some point
03:33:35 <Sgeo> 3d games
03:34:26 <coppro> oerjan: yeah, I want to see that paper
03:40:42 <Sgeo> Flash just crashed in the middle of me watching something
03:40:56 <coppro> how surprising
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03:47:48 <alise> hi jane1
03:50:00 -!- jane1 has left.
03:52:48 -!- jane1 has joined.
03:52:54 <alise> hi jane1
03:53:03 <jane1> hi a;ise
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03:53:50 <alise> a;ise
03:54:15 <jane1> sorry,alise
03:54:24 <jane1> :P
03:54:41 <Sgeo> The crashes are happening much more now
03:56:44 <oerjan> Sgeo: the end is nigh
03:57:00 * Sgeo cries
03:57:23 <Sgeo> Maybe an update of Firefox etc. will help?
03:58:04 <Sgeo> Ooh, Gwibber gets OAuth
03:58:05 <Sgeo> Good
03:58:11 <Sgeo> I can now actually use it
03:59:27 <Sgeo> Needs too much disk space to update everything
03:59:31 <Sgeo> I'm going to cry
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04:23:54 <SgeoN1> Maybe I should try Puppy Linux again or something
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04:26:28 <SgeoN1> USB stick might not have been in tightly enough
04:26:48 <SgeoN1> I wonder if that could be the cause of the incessant crashing
04:41:12 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_errata my favourite page
04:41:22 <alise> it gets truly hilarious a bit lower down
04:41:27 <alise> especially all the names
04:42:57 <alise> "For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their owl husbands."
04:43:03 <pikhq> I'm quite fond of "Thou shalt commit adultery".
04:44:13 <oerjan> alise: a fowl fate indeed
04:45:09 <alise> "Their Owl Husbands" would be a good band/novel name/title.
04:45:57 <oerjan> straight from the howly book
04:46:02 <alise> shut up :P
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04:53:23 <Gregor> Somebody should print a version of the bible that has every error ever known to be printed in a bible.
04:55:46 <Sgeo> http://cowbirdsinlove.com/980
04:56:22 <Gregor> "Christ condemneth the poor widow" // Christianity is a very capitalistic religion
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04:59:35 -!- zzo38 has set topic: Are the mating habits of quarks really the subject of ephemeral ontologists? Or would they be more wealthy discussing http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D ?.
05:00:43 <zzo38> I don't even know what this topc message means
05:02:56 <zzo38> s/topc/topic/
05:05:14 <Gregor> I don't think it's actually meaningful.
05:05:41 <zzo38> I also don't think it is actually meaningful.
05:05:44 -!- jane1 has joined.
05:06:40 <Gregor> It's amusing though :P
05:06:59 <zzo38> OK
05:07:42 <pikhq> Well, it certainly doesn't lack unmeaning.
05:08:03 <zzo38> What is ephemeral ontologists?
05:08:21 <Gregor> Presumably people who study short-lived things.
05:08:39 <pikhq> Or people who are short-lived studying things.
05:08:43 <Gregor> Or --- yeah :P
05:08:45 <zzo38> OK
05:10:37 <pikhq> Why am I so good at not doing anything?
05:10:51 <Gregor> RARGH READ FYTHE SPEC
05:11:07 <pikhq> I'm too busy doing fuck-all!
05:11:22 <Gregor> That's a lot of stuff to fuck! (All stuff)
05:11:26 <zzo38> I did find the problem in the Enhanced CWEB, which I have now fixed. The problem was inserting discretionary breaks after \BIS
05:11:50 <pikhq> Gregor: I'm like Wowbagger with more sex.
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05:55:36 <alise> Goodnight.
05:55:37 <alise> Bye.
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06:14:07 <pikhq> "Im looking for a bento box, it cant be pinku (thats japanese for pink) or any girl color. It has to be of 2 or more kotoba (thats japanese for 2 compartments) and has be be chibi(small) sized"
06:14:21 <pikhq> My faith in humanity is dying.
06:14:56 <Gregor> "pinku" X-D
06:15:24 <pikhq> "kotoba" is Japanese for "word" and "chibi" is a slang term for a cutesy drawing style.
06:15:42 <pikhq> From "chiisai hito", I think.
06:15:44 <Gregor> What's actual-Japanese for pink?
06:15:52 <pikhq> pinku
06:16:09 <Gregor> Uhh, that's presumably an import from English. What's pre-English Japanese for pink then? >_>
06:16:32 <oerjan> PRE-ENGLISH JAPANESE WERE TOO AWESOME FOR PINK
06:16:39 <Gregor> D-8
06:16:40 <pikhq> tankôshoku
06:16:54 <Gregor> Is that just "light red" compressed or something?
06:17:19 <pikhq> Faint red color.
06:17:29 <pikhq> Or momoiro. Peach color.
06:17:43 <pikhq> Pinku is by far the most common, though.
06:17:58 <oerjan> momotaro
06:18:10 <pikhq> oerjan: Yes, same morpheme.
06:19:26 <pikhq> Also, I had to look up ones that weren't "pinku".
06:20:12 <oerjan> pinku shirtu, domo arigato
06:20:42 <pikhq> oerjan: pinku shâtsu wo kudasai; domo arigatô. I think you mean.
06:21:04 <pikhq> Erm, dômo arigatô.
06:21:08 <oerjan> POSSIBLY
06:21:49 <oerjan> especially if shâtsu is an english loanword
06:21:55 <pikhq> It is.
06:22:22 <pikhq> It refers to button-up shirts.
06:23:38 * oerjan shouldn't talk - the original word "kortbukser" is almost completely replaced by "shorts" in norwegian
06:23:40 <pikhq> Or perhaps you mean: hįnnku siȳâtu wo kutàsai; tồmo arikàtô.
06:25:05 * oerjan wouldn't know, you know
06:25:26 <pikhq> Or perhaps you mean "domo arigato, Mr. Robato".
06:26:19 <oerjan> CERTAINLY NOT
07:12:53 <pikhq> Ò ḥóẅ Ɨ ♥ çőḿṗốŝę.
07:20:00 <cheater99> hiiii
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07:32:06 <cheater99> http://www.bitrebels.com/geek/this-pool-creates-waves-in-the-shape-of%E2%80%A6anything/
07:34:43 <pikhq> cheater99: Awesome.
07:36:03 <Gregor> It's a good thing they got Japan Kramer to check it out.
07:37:04 <cheater99> lol
07:37:17 <cheater99> actually japan kramer is the guy who made it.
07:37:35 <Gregor> I DON'T SPEAK JAPANALANG
07:37:41 <pikhq> All that for safety testing.
07:38:01 <pikhq> They are using that to figure out how to make better safety testing procedures for boats. Seriously.
07:38:12 <Gregor> I thought it was Japan Business Suit Guy
07:38:25 <Gregor> (The guy who made it, that is)
07:38:39 <pikhq> Too suit-y.
07:38:49 <pikhq> He talked more like a businessman than anything else.
07:43:08 <pikhq> I'm not sure what's up with Japan Kramer there.
07:43:36 <Gregor> Especially since he's crazy-Euromerican-looking.
07:43:57 <pikhq> Yeah, I got nothing, and I understood the video.
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08:04:28 <Gregor> Did you understand EVERY WORD?
08:04:38 <pikhq> No, but I understood most of it.
08:04:48 <Gregor> Maybe encoded into one seeming-innocuous unrecognized word was a lengthy exposition on the role of each of the people in the video.
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08:40:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Where's clog?
08:40:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I just noticed that the logs cut off halfway through yesterday.
08:44:30 <coppro> crap
08:44:32 <cheater99> the pipes are probably...
08:44:35 * cheater99 puts on sunglasses
08:44:37 <cheater99> clogged.
08:44:38 * coppro must figure out how to get a log
08:44:44 <cheater99> YYYYEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!
08:44:46 <coppro> becase dbelange was in here
08:48:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Who?
08:49:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, doesn't one of Gregor's bots keep logs?
08:49:37 <Phantom_Hoover> https://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/
08:52:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Bah, it doesn't log anything interesting.
08:52:10 <Phantom_Hoover> At the moment.
08:52:29 <Phantom_Hoover> By my calculations, we have 2 hours before the next log fetch.
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09:07:16 <coppro> calculate wronger then
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09:17:05 <Vorpal> * coppro must figure out how to get a log <-- your own irc client logs
09:17:21 <Vorpal> if you don't have them: your own issue
09:18:40 <Vorpal> I could of course share mine, but why
09:20:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Because we don't have any others and we're not always online?
09:24:44 <coppro> Vorpal: specifically, I meant to figure out how to get my client to dump logs
09:25:00 <coppro> it has logs of some length
09:25:11 <coppro> usually about a day and a half in here
09:25:24 <coppro> sometimes less
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09:33:16 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, XChat?
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09:44:16 <Vorpal> <coppro> Vorpal: specifically, I meant to figure out how to get my client to dump logs <-- hm...
09:44:31 <Vorpal> -coppro- VERSION irssi v0.8.12 <-- okay, no clue
09:44:36 <Vorpal> but it should be possible
09:44:46 <Vorpal> not sure about dumping scrollback though
09:44:54 <Vorpal> which is different from logging I think
09:45:03 <Vorpal> logging starts from the point you activate it
09:45:37 <Vorpal> coppro, still I could give you logs I guess, they are in a custom xchat-like format and are in the CEST timezone
09:45:45 <Vorpal> (which is UTC+2)
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09:58:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, yes, please.
09:58:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not in general, just for coppro specific usage I meant
09:59:03 <Phantom_Hoover> We all want the logs!
09:59:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if coppro wants the logs I will paste the link in the channel.
09:59:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but I see no point in helping you, you seem to hate me usually.
10:00:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Touché.
10:00:51 <Vorpal> bbl
10:01:52 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, quick, ask for logs!
10:06:40 <Vorpal> coppro, since you were just interested in the bit where dbelange was in here, that is all I will include. But now, bbl for a few hours
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10:49:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Where was that thought experiment with the sphere of air that approximated the Poincaré hyperbolic model?
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11:28:34 <yorick> how many have come here this week asking for the smallest way to initialize cells in brainfuck to 67, 100 and 111?
11:31:30 <Vorpal> yorick, none that I know of, why?
11:31:32 <Vorpal> btw:
11:31:35 <Vorpal> $ grep -Ev '^#|[0-9]+/(tcp|udp|sctp|dccp)' /etc/services
11:31:35 <Vorpal> cuelink 5271/tdp # StageSoft CueLink messaging
11:31:38 <Vorpal> wtf is tdp?
11:31:50 <Vorpal> I googled and it seems IANA itself lists it as tdp too
11:31:59 <Vorpal> so not just a typo in my local copy
11:32:01 <yorick> Vorpal: because it's part of the dutch informatics olympiad :P
11:32:25 <Vorpal> sounds like cheating helping you then
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11:33:21 <yorick> Vorpal: tag distribution protocol
11:33:29 <yorick> Vorpal: I'm not asking :)
11:33:34 <Vorpal> hm
11:33:44 <Vorpal> yorick, or it could be a typo for either udp or tcp
11:33:54 <Vorpal> yorick, after all it is the only tdp port listed there
11:34:01 <Vorpal> and:
11:34:03 <yorick> http://www.protocols.com/pbook/tag.htm#TDP
11:34:03 <Vorpal> cuelink 5271/tdp # StageSoft CueLink messaging
11:34:03 <Vorpal> cuelink-disc 5271/udp # StageSoft CueLink discovery
11:34:05 <Vorpal> that looks suspect
11:34:12 <yorick> it does
11:34:13 <Vorpal> one tdp and one udp
11:34:32 <yorick> the d is not far from the c
11:34:48 <Vorpal> yorick, assuming qwerty
11:35:03 <Vorpal> probably a safe assumption though
11:35:04 <yorick> most people have qwerty
11:36:31 <Phantom_Hoover> yorick, you know there's a huge table of constants on the esolangs wiki?
11:36:42 <Phantom_Hoover> If they're clever enough, they'll find that.
11:36:57 * Phantom_Hoover continues to wrestle with DCGs.
11:37:12 <yorick> Phantom_Hoover: I know that, but I need something smaller :P
11:38:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Are you restricted beyond what passes for BF's spec?
11:38:46 <Vorpal> yorick, if you are taking part in this competition it seems like cheating to help you
11:39:10 <yorick> true :/
11:39:13 <yorick> Phantom_Hoover: stop helping me
11:39:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not likely to be able to help.
11:39:44 <yorick> cells are unsigned 8-bit
11:43:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Wrapping?
11:43:37 <Phantom_Hoover> What kind of length are you aiming for?
11:44:30 <Vorpal> 'Note that even very well-known de facto uses of EtherTypes are not always recorded in the IEEE list of EtherType values. For example, EtherType 0x0806 (used by ARP) appears in the IEEE list only as "Symbolics, Inc., Protocol unavailable."'
11:44:31 <Vorpal> XD
11:45:35 <yorick> Phantom_Hoover: anything lower than 74
11:45:51 <Phantom_Hoover> For each number or in total?
11:46:04 <yorick> in total
11:46:14 <yorick> (the idea is to print a string "CodeCup")
11:46:23 <Vorpal> hm
11:46:38 <Vorpal> !bf_txtgen CodeCup
11:46:48 <EgoBot> 80 +++++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>+.>+.<<+.+.>.>++++++.-----.>-. [400]
11:46:49 <Vorpal> that will iirc include a newline
11:46:56 <Vorpal> and it is rather stupid
11:47:04 <Vorpal> yeah, doesn't help you much
11:47:18 <yorick> that's 74 without the \n
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11:48:13 <Vorpal> hm
11:48:53 <Vorpal> yorick, anyway there are obvious ways to make that shorter, due to the competition nature of the thing I won't help you with that though
11:49:09 <Phantom_Hoover> yorick, I can get 67,100,111 in 47 characters, but that's probably not enough.
11:50:15 <Phantom_Hoover> And that was just concatenating the wiki's constants.
11:50:45 <yorick> that gives 76
11:52:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Concatenating and reusing the C?
11:52:31 <Phantom_Hoover> And adding one for the e?
11:53:01 <Phantom_Hoover> And the p?
11:54:13 <Phantom_Hoover> So 'C'.>'o'.>'d'.+.<<.>>>'u'.<<+.
11:54:31 <yorick> I am reusing the C already
11:55:43 <yorick> but stop helping me
11:58:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Alas, poor Yorick. I knew him, Horatio!
11:59:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, well. That only gets it down to 79.
12:02:58 * yorick should put an ignore on that line
12:03:42 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not even terribly good...
12:07:55 <yorick> I should somehow be able to take advantage of the fact that they are all one more than a multiple of 11
12:08:49 <Vorpal> indeed you should. And 11 is probably shorter as a a calculation of something else
12:09:30 <yorick> it isn't
12:09:45 <Vorpal> mhm
12:09:54 <yorick> +++++[>++<-]+ <-- that's 13
12:10:08 <yorick> well...its size is 13, it calculates 11
12:10:25 <yorick> +++[>+++<-]++ <-- that's also 13
12:14:33 <fizzie> There is that list of constants at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants but of course for a longer string it most likely is not sensible to just concatenate those.
12:16:09 <fizzie> The text generator used by the bot can do it in 73 characters with the "-t 3" flag and no newline.
12:20:31 <fizzie> (I sure hope I didn't accidentally help.)
12:21:45 * yorick will not look at the textgenerator
12:21:49 <yorick> and I already knew about the constants
12:27:14 <yorick> I also have it in 73 chars :/
12:32:10 <fizzie> The text generator is limited to programs of that very simple form, so it's not going to figure out anything very clever. (No nested loops or anything.)
12:32:16 <Phantom_Hoover> HMM/
12:32:22 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: HMMMMM!
12:32:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor's hg repository for the esologs cuts of at the exact same byte as clog's!
12:32:43 <fizzie> Hidden Markov Models?
12:33:02 <Phantom_Hoover> So last night effectively never was.
12:33:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, um, it fetches from clog afaik
12:33:41 <Vorpal> it is just his way to store clog data
12:33:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Are there no other logs?
12:34:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, your own client may log
12:34:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, same goes for your bouncer
12:34:20 <fizzie> I don't know of any other public logs.
12:34:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, maybe time to set up something yourself?
12:34:42 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm interested in the logs from when I was offline and my computer off.
12:34:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so use a bouncer on a vps :P
12:35:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, do you have one of these?
12:35:37 <fizzie> Spare no expense! What's more important, your next lunch or adequate #esoteric log coverage?
12:35:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, a VPS? No. Or rather: depends. Not for general use though, and I have my own bouncer on a server on my lam
12:36:10 <Vorpal> but there are reasonable free public shell services. A few at least.
12:36:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Do you have logs for last night, and will you give them to me?
12:36:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, 1) yes I have them 2) why should I, you have been acting like a jerk towards me most of the time
12:36:52 <fizzie> Didn't you go through this already? At least I think I saw something like that in the logs.
12:37:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I'll reform!
12:37:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why should I trust you? ehird has too much influence over you. And he promised similar things in the past for me providing some info only I had....
12:37:54 <Vorpal> and um that didn't exactly work out well
12:38:05 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Here's an idea: reform as a cube.
12:38:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, good idea
12:38:17 <Vorpal> more people should do that
12:38:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Phantom_Cuber.
12:38:24 <Phantom_Cuber> See?
12:38:41 <Phantom_Cuber> I'm a changed platonic solid!
12:39:22 <Phantom_Cuber> Vorpal, I'm not that much of a jerk anyway!
12:39:40 <fizzie> Phantom_Cuber: You should put that in your CV, that's a really nice way of putting it.
12:39:53 <fizzie> "I'm not that much of a jerk." Definite hiring potential.
12:39:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Cuber, how old are you now again?
12:40:01 <Phantom_Cuber> 13!
12:40:13 <Vorpal> what? really? I thought you refused to tell people?
12:40:29 <fizzie> 6227020800 years; an ancient.
12:40:30 <Phantom_Cuber> I've reformed, remember!
12:40:34 <Vorpal> if you are that desperate for logs, you are addicted or something, can't be healthy :P
12:41:01 <Vorpal> hm
12:41:06 <Phantom_Cuber> I want to know who the mystery person is!
12:42:47 <Vorpal> okay I will filter out private info from logs
12:43:12 -!- Harpyon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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12:43:57 <Phantom_Cuber> I suppose I should point out that I'm not actually 13.
12:44:11 <Phantom_Cuber> Since I'm not *that* much of a jerk.
12:44:16 <Phantom_Cuber> See! Reformedish!
12:44:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Cuber, hm
12:44:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Cuber, so how old are you really?
12:44:47 <Phantom_Cuber> As old as the winds blowing in the trees...
12:45:49 <Vorpal> I hope that you really stop being so much of a jerk though, probably not likely, but oh well...
12:46:17 <Vorpal> http://sprunge.us/CXgQ
12:46:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Cuber, and why did you not consider asking fizzie? It is well known he keeps logs after all
12:46:53 <Phantom_Cuber> fizzie, WHYYYY
12:47:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Cuber, why what?
12:47:30 <Phantom_Cuber> Why anything?
12:47:45 <Vorpal> 11. Security Considerations
12:47:45 <Vorpal> This document is about security; as such, there are no additional
12:47:45 <Vorpal> security considerations.
12:47:46 <Vorpal> heh
12:48:00 <Vorpal> a bit silly to even need to include such a section in an RFC
12:48:24 <Vorpal> (from "RFC 5062 - Security Attacks Found Against the Stream Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP) and Current Countermeasures")
12:48:29 -!- Flonk has joined.
12:52:01 <Flonk> Guys, whats your HTML Editor of choice (Windows)? I've tried Dreamweaver for some days now, but its just too heavy.
12:52:22 <Vorpal> wrong channel...
12:53:11 <Flonk> alright.
12:53:12 <Vorpal> (but I use a text editor with syntax highlighting for html, I don't know any windows apps, but surely something like emacs has been ported)
12:56:35 <fizzie> There's a Windows port of gvim, that's not too shabby. It's not exactly an "HTML Editor" though.
13:19:07 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
13:23:54 * Phantom_Cuber → things
13:28:03 -!- Phantom_Cuber has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
13:49:47 <yorick> yay, I got a solution in 70 *O*
13:53:25 <Zuu> Ohnoes! a solution!
13:53:53 * Zuu mixes in some chemicals in an attempt to neutralize the solution
13:54:28 <yorick> Zuu: a solution to the "make the smallest possible BF code that prints "CodeCup""
13:55:05 * Zuu looks at his selection of chemicals ...
13:55:21 <Zuu> Yeah.. i dont have what it takes to neutralize that :/
13:55:49 <yorick> +++++++++++[->+++[->++>+++>+++<<<]>>+<<<]>>+.>+.>+.+.<<.>++++++.-----. yay
13:59:09 <Zuu> so what does this give: ++++++++[>++[->++++++<<]>><<]>>.>+>++.<.>++++----. ?
14:01:48 <yorick> it gives 0x7 0x2 0x7 0x2
14:02:07 <Zuu> Pretty close, eh?
14:02:16 <Zuu> :P
14:03:04 <Zuu> Thats probably my first and last attempt at writing anything that remotely resembles BF source
14:05:06 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
14:05:49 <yorick> Zuu: http://pastebin.com/drd9hPyE (give it input C) was my first attempt
14:20:38 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
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14:53:17 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk.
14:54:31 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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15:02:15 <Zuu> ok
15:03:20 <Zuu> cant say my attempt was very honest since i really just took what you pasted, and removed random characters :P
15:04:27 <yorick> heh
15:05:40 <yorick> are genetic algorithms any great for bf code generation?
15:05:56 <quintopia> PROBABLY NOT
15:06:31 <yorick> WHY NOT?
15:07:27 <quintopia> languages that work well for local search techniques for problem solving are ones that have a semi-continuous solution space
15:07:55 <quintopia> the subset of BF including +,-,., and , have this property
15:07:57 <Zuu> While it might not work well for BF i think it works far better for BF than so so many other languages
15:08:15 <quintopia> the whole [] construct doesn't really
15:08:51 -!- alise has joined.
15:09:23 <alise> Soooo...
15:09:28 <alise> Anyone have a copy of the logs?
15:10:19 <yorick> quintopia: a testrun of http://code.google.com/p/bf-code-generation/ reveals that you are right
15:10:25 <Zuu> its just a amtter of transforming the loop construct into a [[[[[[[[[ construct, where the number of ['s tells how many of the following characters are supposed to be looped
15:10:33 <quintopia> alise: i was in the room, but i may or may not have logged it >.>
15:11:17 <Zuu> i dont know what the < and > means in bf though
15:11:19 <quintopia> zuu: you mean a bounded loop?
15:11:33 <quintopia> so that only primitive recursive functions can be generated?
15:11:54 <Zuu> quintopia, no its simply a syntactical change
15:12:10 <quintopia> well, i mean, that's cool and all, most biological computers (people for instance) can only compute primitive recursive functions anyway. . .
15:12:30 <quintopia> oh i get it
15:12:32 <Zuu> aaa[xxxxxx]bbb would be written aaa[[[[[[[xxxxxxbbb
15:12:36 <quintopia> you're dropping the ]
15:13:03 <quintopia> yeah, i don't think that changes anything really about the difficulty of GA on it
15:13:14 <quintopia> well
15:13:19 <quintopia> it may make it slightly better
15:13:28 * alise sends off an email to Faré
15:13:34 <alise> asking him to restart clog
15:15:07 <quintopia> is clog supposed to be more a pun on what happens to drains or shoes that make sounds?
15:15:24 <alise> i think the former.
15:15:46 <alise> knowing Faré's political opinions he'll probably ask me to pay for the restart ;)
15:16:17 <quintopia> alise: i have about 24 hours worth of logs for sure. you want anything recent?
15:16:41 <alise> quintopia: every line after
15:16:41 <alise> 14:25:25 * Sgeo murders Flash
15:16:41 <alise> 14:25:39 <ais523> I think the stdlib version loops once per bit
15:16:43 <alise> (yesterday)
15:16:47 <alise> (those timestamps may be wrong for you)
15:16:51 <alise> to when I joined would be nice :)
15:16:58 <quintopia> okiedoke
15:17:01 <alise> to reconstruct the timeline later if I ever get around to creating a full log DB
15:17:01 <alise> thanks
15:19:53 <quintopia> you were in the chan until midnight my time. don't you have logs of that?
15:20:22 <alise> oh, true
15:20:31 <alise> quintopia: i left the channel a few times accidentally though
15:21:02 <alise> loading this 2.6 mb log file is fun
15:21:32 <alise> quintopia: yeah, okay, I only need my quit to my join
15:21:35 <alise> thanks :)
15:21:38 <Zuu> Hehe
15:21:45 <Zuu> whops wrong window
15:22:58 <yorick> http://pastebin.com/UVXyzY2t <-- is this really horrible? it generates BF code from desired-string input :)
15:23:59 <quintopia> I actually have a full log of this channel for the entire time i've been here
15:24:11 <alise> yorick: how does that work for sufficiently big numbers?
15:24:15 <quintopia> but i have a file containing just the last 24 hours for you here...
15:24:18 <quintopia> where shall i send it?
15:24:24 <alise> quintopia: filebin.ca?
15:24:28 <quintopia> kk
15:24:33 <alise> thanks
15:24:45 <alise> the timestream must be preserved!
15:24:47 <yorick> alise: it generates code wrong a string between "A"-"z"
15:24:53 <yorick> so no need for anything bigger
15:25:08 <alise> yorick: oh.
15:25:12 <alise> boring :P
15:25:33 <alise> it should totally use dynamic programming or something!
15:26:17 <yorick> alise: it should, that's part 3 of the challenge :P
15:26:46 <alise> challenge?
15:26:50 <quintopia> http://filebin.ca/xnyacp/furalise.txt
15:26:55 <yorick> alise: dutch informatics olympiad
15:27:05 <alise> yorick: laaaaaaaaaaaaaaawl
15:27:08 <yorick> alise: so don't help me :)
15:27:17 <alise> yorick: shouldn't you be coding :)
15:27:22 <alise> quintopia: groan @ filename
15:27:35 <alise> quintopia: 10:23 < alise> oerjanerer ;; you know, i have all that logged
15:27:41 <yorick> alise: just finished part 2...still thinking/planning
15:27:46 <alise> up to 00:55 -!- alise [~alise@91.105.114.37] has quit [Quit: Leaving] :-P
15:28:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:28:53 <quintopia> alise: with irssi, it's easier to just dump the entire scrollback buffer to a file
15:28:53 <yorick> part one was make a normal bf code generator, part 2 was make something small yourself, part 3 is make a size-optimizing code generator
15:29:01 <alise> ah
15:29:09 <alise> quintopia-2010-10-02-03; what a terrible filename
15:29:30 <alise> ideally some day I'll get a hold of Vorpal's private logs and merge them with the clog ones :P
15:29:36 <quintopia> a log of our PMs?
15:29:43 <alise> no
15:29:45 <alise> that txt
15:29:51 <alise> (furalise)
15:29:58 <alise> i'm too anal to not give it a meaningful name!
15:30:35 <quintopia> what is the 03 at the end for?
15:30:37 <quintopia> oh
15:30:42 <quintopia> the 2nd to the 3rd
15:30:43 <quintopia> i get it
15:30:51 <alise> yeah precisely :P
15:31:08 <quintopia> i liked my filename better
15:34:59 <nooga> mopr
15:37:03 * yorick goes looking for something on dynamic programming
15:37:25 <alise> yorick: does it really say dynamic programming?
15:37:32 <alise> i was joking, but i guess it could help
15:37:43 <alise> yorick: genetic programming is usually what is done for this
15:37:48 <alise> !bf_txtgen poop
15:37:57 <alise> !bf_textgen yorick
15:38:05 <alise> bit slow though
15:38:08 <alise> !userinterps
15:38:08 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pi pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
15:38:11 <EgoBot> 44 ++++++++++[>+++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>++.-..+.>. [282]
15:38:13 <yorick> alise: it just says "write something that generates a size-optimized bf-code for a random string"
15:38:35 <yorick> alise: I looked at genetic programming, it appears to be horrible
15:38:38 <alise> yorick: genetic programming will help a ton. dynamic programming won't. the above uses genetic programming, so does everything else
15:38:40 <alise> that's all i'll say :)
15:38:57 <alise> yorick: oh, you don't, like, genetically program from nothing to the string
15:39:15 <alise> i think you start with a regular RLE'd one, and then start mutating that in ways that make it smaller
15:39:17 <alise> i could be totally wrong though
15:39:20 <alise> so maybe ignore me
15:39:34 * yorick will look into that
15:39:48 <alise> yorick: i'd link you to the one egobot uses but *uh* pretty sure that's against your rules
15:40:13 <quintopia> i should think a dynamic programming solution would do pretty well...
15:40:22 <alise> 03:44 < coppro> crap
15:40:24 <yorick> does it use the java thing?
15:40:30 <alise> quoted for prosperity
15:40:35 <alise> yorick: uhh, yes, it does use some sort of java thing
15:40:51 <yorick> does it use the "bf-code-generation" java thing?
15:41:01 <alise> i don't know; however i can link you.
15:41:10 <yorick> then it's not it :)
15:41:20 <yorick> the link would contain it
15:41:30 <alise> yorick: no -- egobot has its own copy of everything.
15:41:39 <alise> http://codu.org/projects/trac/egobot/export/114%3A1fe97d50a1d8/multibot_cmds/interps/bf_txtgen/textgen.tar.gz
15:41:43 <alise> there's the code
15:41:58 <alise> no, wait, just .class :D
15:42:04 <alise> yorick: i distinctly recall it was in a cvs repository
15:42:07 <alise> but it *could* have just evolved into that
15:42:49 <alise> yorick: how are they bowlderising "brainfuck"? :)
15:42:59 <yorick> https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/1fe97d50a1d8/multibot_cmds/interps/bf_txtgen
15:43:02 <yorick> alise: "BF"
15:43:19 <nooga> yorick: hmm, are you Dutch?
15:43:26 <yorick> nooga: yes
15:43:49 <nooga> yorick: did you work on OTS ?
15:43:54 <alise> yorick: booring :)
15:43:56 <yorick> nooga: no
15:44:03 <alise> <yorick> https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/1fe97d50a1d8/multibot_cmds/interps/bf_txtgen ;; this is just egobot's launcher for it
15:44:12 <alise> ask Gregor
15:44:12 <alise> :P
15:44:23 <alise> i'm not sure how dynamic programming would help.
15:44:43 <yorick> alise: I found the .java already :/
15:44:59 <alise> yorick: ohh, right, it's .java
15:45:02 <alise> i was thinking .class
15:45:05 <alise> sorry, i'm dumb :)
15:45:23 <alise> 03:49 < Phantom_Hoover> Wait, doesn't one of Gregor's bots keep logs?
15:45:28 <alise> no, that just mirrors clog
15:45:42 <alise> 04:17 < Vorpal> if you don't have them: your own issue
15:45:42 <alise> 04:18 < Vorpal> I could of course share mine, but why
15:45:48 <alise> "*that* would decrease my average overall snottiness!"
15:45:53 <yorick> meh @ java
15:46:32 <alise> yorick: that has nothing to do with the algorithm :P
15:46:56 <yorick> alise: it makes it about 28% less readable
15:47:00 <alise> 04:59 < Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if coppro wants the logs I will paste the link in the channel.
15:47:00 <alise> 04:59 < Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but I see no point in helping you, you seem to hate me usually.
15:47:05 <alise> it's that time of month again for Vorpal!
15:47:09 <alise> yorick: than *C*?
15:47:22 <alise> at least it doesn't have any malloc()s, sure Java is ridiculously verbose, but you should easily be able to figure out the algorithm
15:47:22 <yorick> alise: than *python*
15:47:28 <alise> yorick: oh, i thought that C was yours
15:47:32 <alise> Python is lame :P
15:47:33 <yorick> alise: it is too
15:47:45 <alise> (note: I hate Java, C and Python, so you cannot rebut >_>)
15:47:53 <yorick> C++!
15:54:05 <alise> yorick: congratulations, that's the worst language you've named so far! :D
15:54:34 <yorick> alise: javascript!
15:55:05 <alise> yorick: is fucked up in strange ways. But at least it's based on Scheme..
15:55:19 <yorick> true :)
15:55:21 <yorick> I like JS
15:55:32 <yorick> visual basic!
15:58:18 <alise> yorick: >_<
15:59:32 <alise> Vorpal: i was wondering why warzone 2100 was so polished, then i googled it and found out it was originally a commercial game
15:59:33 <alise> how surprising :P
16:02:07 <yorick> !bf_textgen -g 200 -t 3 abcdefg
16:02:21 <alise> yorick: doesn't it do "$foo" in the launcher script?
16:02:25 <alise> one may want to run it locally.
16:02:34 <yorick> alise: it works locally :)
16:02:49 <yorick> ++++++++++++[>++++++++>><<<-]>+.+.+.+.+.+.+. <-- it brings the world things like this :)
16:03:01 <Sgeo> BancSTAR!
16:03:18 <yorick> APL!
16:03:27 <alise> yorick: yeah >><< is a special kind of stupidity :)
16:03:31 <alise> yorick: just run a BF->BF optimiser on it
16:03:35 <alise> not difficult to elide things like that at all
16:03:50 <yorick> I know
16:03:55 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
16:04:19 <yorick> hmm I should study it, forget all about it and write my own :)
16:04:23 <Sgeo> []......[
16:04:36 <quintopia> doesn't egobot's do that automatically?
16:04:37 <Sgeo> Oh wait
16:04:41 <quintopia> cuz that would be the smart thing
16:04:41 <Sgeo> Oh no
16:04:48 <Sgeo> []........[elidable]
16:04:58 <yorick> quintopia: it should :P
16:05:27 <alise> 07:21 * yorick will not look at the textgenerator
16:05:37 <nooga> http://www4.kingdomofloathing.com/createplayer.php?
16:05:39 <nooga> classes
16:05:47 <nooga> in KoL are sooooooo awesome
16:06:12 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
16:06:19 <yorick> alise: shhh
16:06:57 <yorick> alise: that was for writing my codecup text thing
16:07:00 <yorick> this is a generator :P
16:16:58 <Sgeo> I see a red robe and I want to turn it black
16:17:35 <quintopia> I want to put it on with my wizard hat
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16:19:17 <nooga> pastamancer
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16:28:11 <alise> 07:37 < Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why should I trust you? ehird has too much influence over you. And he promised similar things in the past for me providing some info only I had....
16:28:20 <alise> Phanty, you have been CORRUPTED! You HORRIBLE BASTARD!
16:30:03 <alise> 07:45 < Vorpal> I hope that you really stop being so much of a jerk though, probably not likely, but oh well... ;; he's only a jerk when you are
16:34:33 <yorick> are people in this channel generally emotionally instable?
16:35:41 <Vorpal> yorick, only a few of them
16:36:08 <yorick> Vorpal: does that include you?
16:36:38 <Vorpal> yorick, well personally I don't think so, or at least there are far worse people in here.
16:36:49 <Vorpal> yorick, rather it is that I and alise don't get along at all
16:37:06 <alise> yorick: no no it's very simple
16:37:09 <alise> everyone in here is cool except Vorpal ;)
16:37:15 <yorick> Vorpal: I see
16:37:50 <Vorpal> I would say instead that everyone in here apart from alise, and to some degree phantom_hoover, are cool
16:42:19 <Vorpal> alise, besides you don't get along with Quad*r*e*scence (* to avoid highlight), and a few more people. So your statement was exaggerated presumably
16:42:47 <alise> he's just a troll. and never talks.
16:42:50 <alise> so that doesn't really count
16:43:06 <yorick> =D
16:44:19 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:45:36 <oerjan> no clog, even :(
16:46:19 <fizzie> oerjan: E's been plungered.
16:46:43 <alise> oerjan: i have logs
16:47:00 <alise> and, unlike Vorpal (watch carefully yorick -- this is how a professional does it), i won't argue with you before linking them
16:47:09 <alise> http://filebin.ca/xnyacp/furalise.txt, props to quintopia
16:47:49 <oerjan> I MAY STILL HAVE TO BAN YOU FOR THAT
16:48:11 <alise> It's funny because oerjan has ops and never uses them!
16:48:20 <oerjan> "never"
16:48:34 <fizzie> "Never" indeed; more oftener than, say, I, I'd say.
16:48:36 <oerjan> those logs seem incomplete as well
16:48:48 <alise> they are complete up until when i got in here
16:49:02 <oerjan> ah
16:49:15 <alise> i can give you those if you want
16:49:35 <oerjan> well unless someone pinged me, never mind
16:50:02 -!- Phantom_Cuber has joined.
16:51:21 <oerjan> < Vorpal> not sure about dumping scrollback though <-- i did manage to do that and start logging into the same file once, but it was a pain i thought
16:52:50 <oerjan> two different commands, and not a common format for choosing a file i think
16:55:20 <oerjan> < yorick> how many have come here this week asking for the smallest way to initialize cells in brainfuck to 67, 100 and 111? <-- we have a wiki page for that, brainfuck constants
16:56:12 <oerjan> the wrapping versions are afaik minimal
16:56:54 <yorick> oerjan: I have found my solution already :)
16:57:15 <yorick> oerjan: and I know about the wiki page, needed something smaller
16:58:25 <oerjan> oh you mean to initialize to all three at once? i guess that might be smaller than combining the separate algorithms.
16:58:53 <oerjan> if you're lucky
16:59:18 <yorick> +++++++++++[->+++[->++>+++>+++<<<]>>+<<<]>>+.>+.>+.+.<<.>++++++.-----. it is :)
16:59:46 <yorick> it prints "CodeCup" :)
16:59:56 <oerjan> > map chr [67,100,111]
16:59:57 <lambdabot> "Cdo"
17:00:59 <oerjan> that looks a little more complicated than what EgoBot's program does
17:01:02 <yorick> (part of the dutch informatics olympiad)
17:01:07 <oerjan> huh
17:01:51 <oerjan> !help languages
17:01:52 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
17:02:17 <oerjan> !userinterps
17:02:17 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pi pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
17:02:25 <yorick> !bf_textgen CodeCup
17:02:31 <yorick> !bf_txtgen CodeCup
17:02:43 <oerjan> i cannot see it in the list :(
17:02:44 <EgoBot> 82 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+++++++>+++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>---.>+.<<.+.>.>++++++.-----.>. [135]
17:02:51 <oerjan> oh maybe it's separate from both
17:02:52 <oerjan> !help
17:02:53 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
17:02:56 <oerjan> heh
17:03:36 -!- FireFly has joined.
17:03:42 <alise> yeah it's an actual interp
17:03:46 <oerjan> it doesn't make nesting loops of course, it's a rather simple algorithm
17:03:57 <alise> because it takes command-line arguments and stuff and blah
17:04:03 <alise> oerjan: yeah i want to make my own now...
17:04:16 <yorick> and I *have* to make my own now
17:04:19 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:04:23 <alise> Zuu's idea of [^n meaning next n instructions are in a loop is interesting... but not that exact syntax
17:04:28 <alise> since that stops you doing [[ (BF)
17:04:41 <alise> not sure how to do it though
17:04:46 <oerjan> yorick: well you seem to have beat it already
17:05:01 <yorick> oerjan: I have not made my own generator
17:05:05 <yorick> (that's the next one)
17:05:23 <oerjan> ok
17:06:32 * alise decides to enable viewing window contents when resizing, this *is* 2010...
17:07:40 <yorick> alise: my windows actually scale while resizing
17:07:52 <yorick> and change size when done
17:07:52 <myndzi> hee, i still have that option off
17:08:00 <alise> yorick: i tried that once, it was godawful
17:08:10 <alise> it makes you *think* you have some perception of what it'll look like and you decide how to resize it based on that
17:08:11 <alise> but then OOPS NO
17:08:27 <alise> X11 really sucks at resizing though, especially with browsers
17:08:30 <alise> it's quite pathetic
17:09:07 <alise> of course with real resizing the window border flashes. lol.
17:09:21 <oerjan> < yorick> but stop helping me <-- IT'S IN OUR BLOOD
17:09:24 <alise> Linux graphics: Think you know how much it sucks? Nope! More than that!
17:09:37 <yorick> oerjan: but then I'll have cheated :/
17:09:51 <alise> no, no, just credit us as ... creative assistants!
17:10:15 <alise> oerjan: I like how helping people is the deep, dark, horrible flaw in our blood.
17:10:22 <yorick> alise: I cannot actually do that :/
17:10:27 <alise> yorick: we're joking :)
17:11:00 <yorick> the actual live resizing is horrible :)
17:11:00 <oerjan> alise: IT'S NOT PROPER CAPITALISM. well unless we charge i guess.
17:11:33 <alise> yorick: only on X11 :P
17:11:39 <yorick> alise: true
17:11:50 <alise> and that's just because X11 is the most hilariously 80s thing ever dreamt of
17:12:08 <yorick> also true
17:12:08 <quintopia> more hilariously 80s than back to the future?
17:12:13 <alise> let's buy one million dollar server and five gajillion $5 monitors and keyboards!
17:12:18 <alise> and NETWORK!
17:12:30 <oerjan> it cannot be much of an olympiad if you're actually capable of _contacting the outside world_ during the contest...
17:12:31 <yorick> alise: but it has nice ssh forwarding :)
17:12:33 <alise> quintopia: well. in software :P
17:12:36 <quintopia> more hilariously 80s than everything about the show "everybody hates chris"?
17:12:41 <yorick> oerjan: this is just the first round
17:12:43 <alise> yorick: yeaah but toolkits should do that really
17:12:50 <alise> if it just sent down gtk messages and local gtk rendered it
17:12:52 <alise> it'd be much nicer
17:12:56 <quintopia> alise: tell that to my old TRS-80 games :D
17:13:04 <alise> quintopia: fine! late 80s!
17:13:20 <yorick> alise: but then you'd need _toolkits_
17:13:24 <alise> <oerjan> it cannot be much of an olympiad if you're actually capable of _contacting the outside world_ during the contest... ;; "We will now seal you inside a Faraday cage. There will be no food."
17:13:34 <alise> yorick: because you program in pure X-over-socket? :)
17:13:46 <yorick> alise: possibly!
17:14:06 <quintopia> that sounds like a brilliant set up
17:14:10 <quintopia> except for the food thing
17:14:28 <yorick> I'll still need power
17:14:37 <yorick> and then I'll secretly DLAN over it :/
17:14:48 <alise> yorick: no, no, you get a hole in the wall with a computer in it
17:15:02 <yorick> alise: I'll hack the computer!
17:15:03 <alise> just a keyboard -- without those pesky unneeded F keys and the like -- and a monitor, running only a compile/run button and an editor
17:15:09 <alise> plus some paper on the wall telling you what to do
17:15:13 <alise> good luck getting past that
17:15:24 <alise> oh yeah and it's all baked into the wall so you can't get any of it out
17:15:31 <yorick> it's the part that allows you to run your own code :)
17:15:39 <alise> yorick: in a qemu VM
17:15:44 <alise> :)
17:15:47 <alise> with no devices
17:15:56 <yorick> qemu has been proven unsafe
17:16:02 <alise> yorick: qemu inside virtualbox inside ...
17:16:04 <alise> without virtualisation
17:16:11 <alise> oh yeah and the editor is custom and only supports arrow keys, backspace/delete, and typing
17:16:38 <yorick> I somehow don't think this is gonna happen
17:23:06 <oerjan> * Zuu mixes in some chemicals in an attempt to neutralize the solution
17:23:30 <oerjan> A NEUTRALIZED SOLUTION IS STILL A SOLUTION
17:24:03 <oerjan> you probably want to make it precipitate
17:25:55 * quintopia mixes in some chemicals to precipitate the solution
17:28:12 <oerjan> well it _could_ be he doesn't mind solutions, as long as they're not too basic
17:28:16 <alise> coppro: ping
17:28:56 * quintopia freezes the solution with LN?
17:29:01 <quintopia> *LN2
17:29:22 <quintopia> apparently 2-subscript is unicode. I don't transmit unicode.
17:34:34 <alise> why not?
17:34:38 <alise> the rest of us do
17:34:55 <alise> pikhq: You know you're anal when you decode FLAC files just to re-encode them with --best.
17:38:31 -!- Kordalien has joined.
17:39:21 <alise> pikhq: ...how the hell is this .flac file smaller than a --best re-encoding?
17:42:01 <oerjan> alise: ALIEN TECHNOLOGY
17:42:08 <oerjan> it's the only possible answer
17:42:43 <alise> LOLZ NOW I HAVE TO FIND A TRACK THAT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO
17:43:31 <quintopia> does there exist a turing-complete language in which a program's inverse is just that program written backwards? is that even possible?
17:43:50 <oerjan> quintopia: Kayak comes close
17:44:36 <alise> quintopia: i thought about that once.
17:44:48 <alise> oerjan: only close?
17:44:58 <alise> because we don't know whether it's TC or not?
17:45:14 <oerjan> you also have to switch to the other matching bracket
17:45:19 <alise> ah
17:45:25