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14:38:11 <pgimeno> so it's not just a tale... this channel does actually exist
14:48:43 <pgimeno> cpressey: just curious, will the Cat's Eye pages content include a discussion on the several languages and paradigms, as the original did?
15:36:59 <pgimeno> damnit, I want to write a debugger for HQ9+ but the specs do not mention the initial value nor the limit value for the accumulator
15:38:17 <pgimeno> is it supposed to be run in a 32-bit binary computer?
15:44:10 <pgimeno> so many broken specs out there... how is one supposed to debug a HQ9+ program if he can't even know the current value of the accumulator?
15:47:22 <pgimeno> I don't know if it's customary to introduce oneself here, anyway I'm Pedro Gimeno from Spain and I'm a esoteric languages fan - my current project is a Malbolge program that copies input to output AND stops on EOF
15:48:08 <mtve> hello. and how do you define EOF?
15:48:41 <pgimeno> EOF as read from standard input comes in as the number 59048 in Malbolge
15:49:33 <pgimeno> so far nobody has succeeded in writing a Malbolge program that does a conditional jump in Malbolge, that's what I'm trying now
15:52:31 <pgimeno> I'm actually using many of Lou Scheffer's directions
15:55:26 <pgimeno> but there are so many caveats he doesn't mention
16:14:15 <pgimeno> I've so far written a Malbolge debugger in Python and a cat program in Malbolge which does not stop on EOF - if someone's interested I can post it on the web
16:14:52 <mtve> there was such program already afair, was it yours?
16:15:41 <mtve> ah, by Lou Scheffer indeed
16:15:58 <pgimeno> no, but Lou Scheffer's one cheats
16:16:58 <mtve> sure, post it somewhere. btw it seems the server with your homepage does not respond.
16:17:28 <pgimeno> hm, which one? I migrated it somewhere else not long ago
16:18:06 <mtve> www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/
16:18:40 <pgimeno> I suppose it will be back online soon
16:18:58 <mtve> no problem, there is a google cache.
16:21:13 <pgimeno> http://perso.wanadoo.es/p.gimeno/temp/mbd.py <-- Malbolge debugger
16:21:31 <pgimeno> http://perso.wanadoo.es/p.gimeno/temp/catnoeof.mb <-- CAT program which does not consider EOF
16:23:12 <mtve> i guess Lou's cat does not understand EOF as well?
16:23:28 <pgimeno> it does exactly the same as this, except for the >127 chars
16:28:45 <mtve> post it to esoteric maillist
16:29:42 <pgimeno> do you think it will be of interest there?
16:30:28 <pgimeno> btw, formauri.es is back online; it was probably on mainteinance or something
16:31:07 <mtve> the list was dead quite a long time, any letter could resurrect it :)
16:31:38 <pgimeno> I don't hold any esolang stuff in there so far; I was about to write a page dedicated to Malbolge as the result of working on this
16:31:59 <pgimeno> I'm afraid of mailinglists (too much time consumed)
16:33:21 <mtve> time? there were only two mails this year. irc consumes much more time.
16:36:33 <mtve> echo subscribe lang | mail listar@esoteric.sange.fi
16:46:55 <mtve> great, it works. also i've found a bug in my interpreter :)
16:47:56 <pgimeno> that's not surprising; the reference interpreter is already quite buggy
19:08:00 <pgimeno> does someone have the Rube and Rube II distributions?
19:09:54 <pgimeno> I could only recover the Rube 1.02 C source, examples and docs from the Wayback machine
19:25:10 <mtve> http://web.archive.org/web/20020601172059/www.catseye.mb.ca/esoteric/alpaca/redgreen/index.html ?
19:26:14 <mtve> http://www.jaapan.de/en/myprg.php?page=progs2
19:37:06 <pgimeno> oh, apparently RedGreen is included in the Alpaca distribution
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02:57:28 <GregorR> Does anybody want to try out my combination of BrainFuck and CoreWars? Essentially, you have two BrainFuckish programs running concurrently, and their data space is the opponent's program space.
02:57:41 <GregorR> The objective being to crash the opponent.
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15:40:50 <Keymaker> do you have the language specification uploaded anywhere as txt, because sourceforge board removes spaces
15:41:05 <Keymaker> as well; sounds pretty cool pgimeno!
15:41:43 <Keymaker> if you have time to create a page dedicated for malbolge it would be cool
15:41:52 <Keymaker> i don't understand anything about that language
15:42:24 <Keymaker> and it would be nice to read more about it.
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17:06:10 <pgimeno> no big deal, just that I couldn't speak to Keymaker before he left
17:11:38 <pgimeno> Keymaker: I'm still on it, but my page won't be dedicated to the language itself; the excellent article in Wikipedia already has a good description on that. I'm just working on trying to let the language be useable to some extent.
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22:09:34 <GregorR> Ahh, good ol' malbolge. It's like killing yourself ... only more painful :-P
22:10:33 <GregorR> Does anyone have anywhere appropriate for me to upload FYB? It's not big, but I'd really rather not upload it to one of my unrelated SF projects.....
22:16:17 <fizzie> Wee-ell, I could keep it on befunge.org, but that place doesn't have any 99% availability guarantees, and there's.. well, no front page to advertise it on. Also, access (for updates and the like) to it a bit tricky, I have this http://gehennom.org/doc/knock/ thing there.
22:26:10 <GregorR> Hmm. That's actually pretty damn cool
22:28:21 <GregorR> I'm sure I could get knock working, it doesn't seem that complex (run knocker, log in within 30 secs). And I certainly wouldn't need to advertize it there *shrugs*
22:34:41 <fizzie> Hmn, well, if intermittent network problems ("whoops, our student village network went down") aren't an obstacle, I could create a place for it. I'd just need an RSA (or DSA) public key in OpenSSH (or PuTTY) format, the sshd here only accepts public key authentication. Then you could use sftp/scp for file transfer. (A shell script of 'knocker ; sftp [blah]' makes it even quite painless.)
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04:40:56 <GregorR> Hoopla! ^_^ http://www.befunge.org/fyb/
04:42:29 <GregorR> Anybody want to challenge me at Befunge? :)
04:42:40 * GregorR needs to read before he hits enter.
04:42:47 <GregorR> Anybody want to challenge me at FukYorBrane? :)
04:44:28 <heatsink> Actually, I should read this README first.
04:45:25 <GregorR> Not the one on the forum, I've changed it a bit >_>
04:51:34 <heatsink> a command greater than 16 is a NOP?
04:52:28 <GregorR> Also made it possible to have no decrement.
04:52:33 <GregorR> Because decrementing is for pussies.
04:53:00 <GregorR> I refer to, of course, weak or feeble-minded people, no female genetalia.
04:53:57 <heatsink> okay, let's see what I can do.
04:54:33 <GregorR> The slow code is part of the idea - it takes a long time to do complex logical operations, so the other program has a chance to do quick evil things.
04:54:42 <GregorR> It balanced out simple-vs-complex a bit.
04:55:01 <GregorR> I've spent WAY too much time on design in this "language" :-P
05:01:13 <heatsink> If two programs are both in a {>} loop, is it possible for an infinite loop?
05:02:17 <GregorR> No, when you > past the end of the program, it comes back to the beginning.
05:02:25 <GregorR> So eventually one would find the other pointer.
05:02:33 <GregorR> Plus, it won't go more than 10,000,000 ticks.
05:03:03 <heatsink> Both pointers are moving simultaneously. I'd like to know if it's possible that they will always miss each other.
05:03:53 <GregorR> { checks if program As data pointer is on top of program Bs program pointer. Program Bs program pointer is just going in a tiny loop, it's not constantly moving.
05:04:05 <GregorR> It's feasable, it could be like this:
05:04:11 <GregorR> Hmm, how to represent this...
05:05:05 <GregorR> But I don't think that would work, since the data pointer can never move as fast as the program pointer.
05:05:32 <GregorR> In my twisted mind that's a Matrix scene :-P
05:07:33 <GregorR> Hmm, I should have mentioned that in the README.
05:08:07 <GregorR> One of the principles behind FYB is that the data pointer can never move as fast as the program pointer it's chasing, because it will take at least three commands to move the data pointer with any sort of logic.
05:10:49 * GregorR is so afraid that you're going to quickly write a program that will whoop all my programs' arses :-P
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05:29:22 <heatsink> I beat mangler, but lose to logicex
05:29:47 <heatsink> I reinvented your trick of a one-time-through thread at the beginning of the program.
05:31:13 <GregorR> Since I use that trick in every single one, I don't think it matters ;-P
05:31:22 <GregorR> Unless by "reinvented" you mean "made significantly better"
05:31:31 <GregorR> logicex is my trophy *shrugs*
05:31:50 <GregorR> I'd also try findAndDestroy, though with the one-time-through-thread at the beginning it ought to be no problem.
05:33:26 <GregorR> Hmmmmmm, just noticed something that may be a bug...
05:33:28 <heatsink> My one time through impl is a little bit simpler, just a few [+]s
05:34:01 <GregorR> When you fork, it ought to gain the parent-process' defect status...
05:34:05 <GregorR> But I don't think that it is...
05:34:52 <GregorR> Then there's probably something snarky about your once-through thread.
05:35:00 <GregorR> That's designed to keep findAndDestroy busy
05:35:10 <GregorR> Oop, I indeed screwed up that inheritance...
05:37:28 <GregorR> a0.5 released with that fix :-P
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07:14:25 <GregorR> It's a combination of BrainFuck and CoreWars.
07:14:30 <GregorR> See http://www.befunge.org/fyb/
07:15:11 <calamari> haha cool idea.. corewars is an oldie but goodie
07:25:24 <GregorR> Yeah, a friend introduced me to it and I thought I could sort of one-up the evil :-P
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10:16:55 <pgimeno> <heatsink> If two programs are both in a {>} loop, is it possible for an infinite loop?
10:16:55 <pgimeno> <GregorR> No, when you > past the end of the program, it comes back to the beginning.
10:17:27 <pgimeno> I was wondering... what about each program running in the opposite direction to the other?
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15:50:57 <GregorR> When you < past the beginning, it does NOT go to the end.
15:51:41 <GregorR> If < looped, then <[+]+++++++++++++++! would be the perfect bomb - you're 100% guaranteed to hit the last command.
15:54:18 <pgimeno> my idea (or better my random thought) was that > increments for one of the programs and decrements for the other
15:55:15 <pgimeno> and the code pointer increases for one of the programs and decreases for the other
15:55:37 <GregorR> Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, like one program actually runs in reverse.
15:55:50 <GregorR> I don't have a mirror command :-P
15:56:32 <pgimeno> no, the idea is to confront them, not to use a mirror command
15:57:22 <GregorR> So it sticks the two chunks of code at opposite ends of the same program space and they go towards eachother? (Or still different program space?)
15:58:17 <pgimeno> yeah, but totally transparently (i.e. no program knows if it's going in the forward or reverse direction)
15:58:59 <GregorR> You are totally free to implement it ;)
15:59:31 <pgimeno> I'm already busy with my malbolge 'cat'
15:59:47 <GregorR> Yeah, malbolge can keep you busy all right X-D
16:00:11 <pgimeno> I've managed to get it working by preloading the memory; now I need to set that memory up via an initialization routine
16:00:43 <pgimeno> that's actually even harder
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17:05:58 <fizzie> Fnur... befunge.org (and thus FYB, too) will be offline for a few minutes (I hope) now, as I install a third NIC to the router box.
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18:29:45 <Keymaker> hmm, it's crowded here today :)
18:50:58 <Keymaker> (sorry about delay, i wasn't in front of computer)
18:51:37 <GregorR-L> Anybody beat my FYB logicex program yet? :-P
18:52:09 <GregorR-L> It helps to be the one who wrote the language :-P
18:52:29 <Keymaker> at least sometimes (like in malbolge ;))
18:52:48 <GregorR-L> It also helps to simply not be malbolge ;)
18:53:44 <pgimeno> Dis is a language designed by Ben Olmstead too, seeing that Malbolge succeeded just too much in being unuseable
18:54:09 <GregorR-L> Dis is also the name of the virtual machine within the Inferno computer operating system. Dis was designed to execute programs written in the programming language Limbo.
18:54:47 <GregorR-L> Back to writing a formal report about fake things I don't care about.
18:55:46 <Keymaker> is there any info about dis anywhere?
18:55:58 <Keymaker> sample programs? language info?
18:57:49 <pgimeno> well, there's the old page by Ben in the web archive
18:58:04 <pgimeno> other than that, it's not very popular
18:58:25 <pgimeno> basically it's the same as Malbolge but removing the encryption and self-modification
18:59:31 <pgimeno> well, it still has a program counter and a data conter, both being auto-increased
18:59:56 <pgimeno> only for masochists like me :P
19:00:49 <pgimeno> I've also tasted BF, it rocks!
19:01:17 <pgimeno> I've written an esoteric languages article in spanish, I have a half-translation somewhere...
19:01:31 <pgimeno> BF is the "star" of the article
19:01:42 <Keymaker> brainfuck is just simply so cool
19:01:55 <pgimeno> I've also written an optimizing interpreter
19:01:58 <Keymaker> in eight powerful instructions
19:02:28 <GregorR-L> BF is really quite interesting. It's about the most "pure" example of a turing machine.
19:02:33 <Keymaker> it's programming on so simple level, i love the instructions :)
19:03:00 <GregorR-L> I once made a non-rule-checking checkers game in BF.
19:03:17 <pgimeno> oh, optimizing interpreter plus debugger, I must add
19:03:31 <GregorR-L> Well, it just had a board, and the user just said "move this piece there"
19:03:38 <GregorR-L> It didn't verify that anything was done legally :-P
19:04:06 <GregorR-L> Ohhhhhhhhh. Hmm. Wikipedia to the rescue I think.......
19:04:41 <GregorR-L> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checkers
19:05:08 <Keymaker> haven't played nor know rules though
19:05:40 <GregorR-L> A very limited checkers game in BF.
19:05:45 <GregorR-L> And I cheated and used a C preprocessor.
19:06:01 <pgimeno> hehe, well, some tricks can be used
19:06:23 <GregorR-L> Anyway, my harddisk crashed so it's lost :'(
19:06:43 <Keymaker> i think i could code a game like that
19:06:54 <pgimeno> heh, it would be cool if it appeared as a type-in program in a magazine :P
19:07:03 <GregorR-L> It wasn't so much challenging as incredibly mind-numningly painful *shrugs*
19:09:25 <pgimeno> here's my article in English (the translation is still preliminary; needs some work, and some parts still need to be translated): http://perso.wanadoo.es/p.gimeno/temp/Articles/EsotericLanguages.html
19:09:51 <pgimeno> the optimizing interpreter/debugger was written as a companion for that article; it's linked somewhere
19:09:51 <Keymaker> i'll take a look, seems interesting :)
19:11:57 <pgimeno> direct link to the debugger: http://perso.wanadoo.es/p.gimeno/files/brfd10.zip
19:13:17 <GregorR-L> Ooooooh, let's see if I can find this.......
19:13:40 <GregorR-L> I made a 2D language (a la PATH) that had only two operations that were overloaded by direction......
19:14:22 <Keymaker> (about bf interpreters; there are thousands of them!!!!)
19:15:09 <GregorR-L> I don't use it though, I just wrote it for kicks.
19:15:17 <pgimeno> heh, every man and his dog's BF interpreter
19:15:36 <pgimeno> if I want to test simple code I usually look for one in JS
19:16:21 <GregorR-L> Mind if I paste the code to make an H (8 lines)
19:16:33 <GregorR-L> ##################################+
19:16:33 <GregorR-L> *#***********************************************************************+
19:17:04 <Keymaker> (looks pretty interesting though!)
19:17:06 <GregorR-L> # isn't an instruction, it's just my way of remembering where I am X-D
19:17:26 <fizzie> I wrote a bf interpreter when I couldn't find one with a working single-step mode. :p
19:17:41 <fizzie> (And one in scheme when I had nothing to do.)
19:17:41 <GregorR-L> Like BF, anything that isn't a command is a comment
19:18:03 <GregorR-L> * = all stack and IO operations, + = branch
19:18:05 <Keymaker> do you have language specification anywhere?
19:19:00 <pgimeno> oh, in the article I propose a BF challenge (which can be split into three): write the shortest possible BF code which stores the number 111 in a memory position
19:20:10 <pgimeno> that number is deliberately outside of Franz Faase's table (of course)
19:20:32 <Keymaker> (must go now for a while, someone else wants to use this computer)
19:20:43 <GregorR-L> I can't find the spec, but I can rewrite it.
19:21:45 <pgimeno> damn, I didn't provide a license for brfd...
19:22:48 <pgimeno> let's say it's public domain
19:25:16 <pgimeno> oh, brfd broke an ANSI C standard regarding the length of a string constant (the help text of the debugger was too long)
19:32:29 <GregorR-L> Darn, I don't think this is my latest revision of 2L ... damn my hard disk failure >_O
19:35:57 <pgimeno> is it Whirl-like? does it have a wheel of opcodes?
19:36:14 <GregorR-L> The op it runs depends on the direction of the program flow.
19:37:43 <GregorR-L> http://www.befunge.org/fyb/2l/README
19:38:08 <GregorR-L> If that logic tree is to totally random to decipher, tell me, I might be able to change it around a bit :-P
19:39:01 <GregorR-L> I even had a 2l compiler before my HD crash :(
19:40:51 <GregorR-L> BTW, 2L stands for "The 2 Language"
19:44:05 <pgimeno> I'd say it has two symbols rather than two operations
19:44:52 <fizzie> BrainFuck (and 2l, apparently) operate on a tape, not a stack. A stack would be a FIFO structure. Other than that, looks like a language I wouldn't want to _have_ to use for some real project. :)
19:45:37 <pgimeno> a stack would be a LIFO ;)
19:46:58 <pgimeno> well, it has that amazing simplicity that makes up a funny esoteric language :)
19:47:51 <pgimeno> I'd like to see a stable homepage for it
19:48:29 <GregorR-L> You #esoteric people are so nice 8-D
19:48:54 <pgimeno> I have to consult it, but I can't give you write access, I just can post your page and maybe your changes
19:49:27 <pgimeno> I've seen so many esoteric language pages being lost
19:50:54 <GregorR-L> Just changed stack to tape and operation to symbol
19:51:29 <pgimeno> I suspect a Hello World will be huge...
19:52:35 <GregorR-L> I have a board on my wall that says "BEWARE OF ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING" and has that, some BF and some FYB posted :-P
19:53:17 <pgimeno> does anyone know something about BLANK? is it 2D?
19:54:00 <pgimeno> I'm trying to classify my bookmarks
19:55:14 <pgimeno> GregorR-L: in about one hour I can tell you if I can host your 2L page
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19:57:00 <pgimeno> fizzie: I haven't read the description thoroughly, but I've read this: "Blank is a combination of Befunge, False, and Brainf*ck,[...]"
19:57:29 <pgimeno> I wondered if the befungity came from being 2D
19:59:21 <fizzie> I don't remember anything really befungey about blank, but I have to admit I don't remember any details about the language.
19:59:44 <pgimeno> if you're sure it's not 2D, that's enough for me, thanks
20:00:13 <Keymaker> for the sake of simplicity there should be language using only space and new-line :)
20:00:49 <pgimeno> that's Whitespace, not to be confused with Blank :)
20:01:58 <Keymaker> i always thought there was just one, never noticed that :)
20:02:06 <pgimeno> Blank is not about spaces, I think
20:04:30 <fizzie> I think the befungey parts of blank are its stack-basedness, plus the instruction set is befunge-inspired. The program sits in a one-dimensional ring, however.
20:06:09 <Keymaker> i gotta ask GregorR-L if i can continue his 2l
20:06:57 <Keymaker> i mean with that that i would change the language a bit and its name as well
20:07:30 <pgimeno> yeah, I agree it could be better
20:09:07 <pgimeno> the problem with Blank is that there's no example in the web pages to figure out what it looks like... well, the description has some snippets but not enough as to get an idea
20:09:36 * pgimeno takes a look at the distribution
20:10:14 <pgimeno> oh, there are a few examples there
20:15:01 <pgimeno> I should have looked in www.99-bottles-of-beer.net
20:17:10 <Keymaker> that is really fascinating site :)
20:17:21 <Keymaker> by the way, iirc it has that for malbolge as well
20:17:37 <Keymaker> that probably means someone has managed to make some loop stuff or something?
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20:19:26 <pgimeno> it is just a printf | gzip | uuencode
20:19:26 <fizzie> According to http://www.lscheffer.com/malbolge.html it just prints the correct string, does not use a loop.
20:20:19 <pgimeno> the day I see a true 99 Bottles of Beer in Malbolge...
20:20:21 <Keymaker> then there's "nothing special" :)
20:20:37 <pgimeno> it's fairly easy to make it spit whatever text
20:21:08 <pgimeno> you just rotate and op like crazy
20:22:12 <pgimeno> well, if you normalize the 99BoB you can see that it just performs about one rotate and two ops per character
20:22:54 <pgimeno> the canonical Malbolge interpreter has the "feature"(?) of the output being modulo 256
20:23:07 <pgimeno> which is quite against the spirit of Malbolge, btw
20:23:28 <pgimeno> it should be modulo 243 if the CPU has trinary pins
20:24:36 <pgimeno> if you prepare a memory area adequately, a rotate followed by an op or two gets the correct character
20:25:36 <pgimeno> that's theory, though; I haven't tried myself
20:26:31 <pgimeno> I'm now concentrated in getting the memory contents set up as I want them
20:26:39 <pgimeno> not so easy as printing characters
20:27:26 <pgimeno> at least I already got the main loop working (but as it is now, I need to preload the memory)
20:29:25 <Keymaker> about getting 111 to some cell
20:30:02 <Keymaker> the pointer must in the cell where 111 is stored when the execution of the program is ended
20:30:27 <Keymaker> i'll try to make a shorter way
20:32:27 <pgimeno> there are three categories
20:32:43 <pgimeno> one: leave the pointer in the same cell
20:32:54 <pgimeno> two: don't leave the pointer in the same cell
20:33:14 <pgimeno> three: assume a modulo-256 interpreter where -1 = 255
20:33:37 <pgimeno> the code must start at position 0
20:33:40 <Keymaker> i'd outrule that category three immediately
20:34:00 <pgimeno> it allows far shorter programs
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20:34:24 <pgimeno> I got one in 13 instructions
20:34:59 <GregorR-L> Anybody want to clue me in on the convo?
20:35:05 <Keymaker> i'm strictly "non-wrapping array, non-wrapping cells, 8 bit cells" kind of brainfuck programmer
20:35:42 <Keymaker> well, don't know about that :)
20:35:45 <pgimeno> <Keymaker> about getting 111 to some cell
20:35:45 <pgimeno> <Keymaker> in this code i assumed
20:35:45 <pgimeno> <Keymaker> the pointer must in the cell where 111 is stored when the execution of the program is ended
20:35:45 <pgimeno> <Keymaker> ++++[>++++<-]>[<+++++++>-]<-
20:37:06 <pgimeno> Keymaker: yours is exactly like mine in category one :)
20:38:20 <Keymaker> but remember i haven't seen your solution
20:38:52 <pgimeno> http://rinconprog.metropoliglobal.com/Articulos/indexArticulo.php?art=4
20:39:10 <pgimeno> click on "english version"
20:39:20 <pgimeno> that's the link for the spanish one
20:40:07 <pgimeno> hehe, sorry... I left that part untranslated
20:40:35 <pgimeno> the theoretical lower bound is 27 instructions
20:40:35 <Keymaker> maybe that was why i didn't find them
20:41:41 <pgimeno> http://rinconprog.metropoliglobal.com/Articulos/indexArticulo.php?art=4#Soluciones
20:42:01 <GregorR-L> The requested URL /Articulos/indexArticulo.php was not found on this server.
20:42:36 <GregorR-L> GAH, I've got to get back to this report X-D
20:42:43 <pgimeno> did you find them, Keymaker?
20:44:01 <Keymaker> so.. are they somewhere on that translated page?
20:44:25 <pgimeno> nope, they're just in the spanish page
20:44:40 <pgimeno> have you tried the second link?
20:45:23 <pgimeno> my Mozilla got a bit crazy
20:45:39 <pgimeno> after it loads, click on the URL bar and hit ENTER
20:46:32 <pgimeno> hm, let me see if I have it in my old page
20:48:44 <pgimeno> http://perso.wanadoo.es/p.gimeno/temp/Articles/Buscaminas.html
20:51:40 <pgimeno> if you happen to be interested in the article, the English version is in http://perso.wanadoo.es/p.gimeno/temp/Articles/Minesweeper.html (this one is complete)
20:56:31 * pgimeno admits with a red face that the Minesweeper Designer program is Windows-only
20:57:39 <pgimeno> GregorR-L: are you still interested in letting me host the 2L specs?
21:00:12 <pgimeno> could you perhaps elaborate it a bit more?
21:01:28 <GregorR-L> Umm, possibly. I could definitely fix the logic tree of doom ^_^
21:02:09 <pgimeno> wrap up a "distribution" if possible
21:03:13 <GregorR-L> Which would be pointless, since there's only one file ;)
21:05:35 <GregorR-L> ./configure ... checking for bfc: Sorry, the interpreter is written in BrainFuck, so you need a BrainFuck compiler to compile this!
21:06:02 <pgimeno> BF should be a standard POSIX tool
21:06:27 <pgimeno> after all who uses dc anyway?
21:06:29 <GregorR-L> All scripts that you would write in perl should instead be written in BF.
21:06:53 <pgimeno> yeah, much more programmer-friendly
21:07:52 <pgimeno> there's not a thousand ways of writing the same semantically equivalent statement
21:07:54 <GregorR-L> Oooooooooh, that's what I want to see. A regex mungler in BF. Has anybody written one?
21:08:18 <pgimeno> uh, regexps are hard to deal with
21:10:33 <GregorR-L> Which is why I want to see them in BF >:)
21:12:53 <GregorR-L> The h.* there is a regex expression.
21:13:04 <GregorR-L> It says "look for an h, then any character repeated any number of times
21:13:11 <GregorR-L> There are infinitely more complex ones :-P
21:13:34 <pgimeno> there's even one that validates dates
21:14:21 <fizzie> There are couple dozen-line ones that validate email addresses.
21:15:07 <pgimeno> well, I don't really mean that there's ONE, just that they have enough power to let that be made ;)
21:15:22 <pgimeno> indeed I've written my own date validator
21:15:45 <fizzie> They have just as much power as finite state automatons. :p (Well, perl regular expressions don't count, you can include arbitrary perl code in those.)
21:17:04 <GregorR-L> Oy. This is so difficult to explain ......
21:17:25 <fizzie> They aren't very readable, though. One of my perl scripts say $rest =~ /^((?:(?:$ex_nt|$ex_t|$ex_e)(?:\s+|$|(?=\|)))*)\s*(?:\||$)\s*(.*)$/ and it's not immediately obvious what that does.
21:17:57 <fizzie> I don't know. It's not obvious.
21:19:00 <Keymaker> :) hmm, what is finite sate automaton?
21:19:48 <pgimeno> a state machine, something like a Turing machine but unidirectional (someone correct me if I'm wrong)
21:21:46 <fizzie> Basically a Turing machine without the tape, yes. It has a set of states, and it does transitions between the states according to the input it receives, handling one character of input at a time.
21:22:10 <fizzie> (And either accepts or rejects the input, depending on what state it ends up in.)
21:24:16 <GregorR-L> This time it has a worthless tutorial 8-D
21:28:59 <pgimeno> "That's it! That's the whole language! Isn't that simple ... but not!"
21:30:28 <Keymaker> now.. make an interpreter, i wanna code something!
21:31:39 <pgimeno> TLO = Top location 0, right?
21:31:53 <GregorR-L> Tape location 0, yes. I should write that in.
21:33:10 <pgimeno> wasn't I/O being made by a * when the program was runing up/down?
21:33:41 <GregorR-L> If I wrote it otherwise, I'm an idiot 8-D
21:34:00 <pgimeno> well, I don't have the previous version and I don't remember :)
21:34:19 <pgimeno> in case of doubt it's me who's wrong :)
21:36:07 <pgimeno> hum, seems to me that it will cost too much traveling from TL0 to TL[whatever] for moderately long programs
21:37:00 <GregorR-L> You could use 0s and travel intelligently *shrugs*
21:37:29 <GregorR-L> 0: 1, 1: 1, 2: 0, 3: n, 4: n, ...., 50: 7
21:37:36 <GregorR-L> You're on 50, just loop backwards until you hit a 0
21:37:44 <GregorR-L> You'd want to put a 0 somewhere there so you could get back
21:37:56 <GregorR-L> And yes, it would cost too much as well 8-D
21:40:19 <pgimeno> furthermore, why left/right are mapped to up/down and raise/lower value are mapped to left/right?
21:40:38 <pgimeno> it would be very graphical if these matched
21:41:08 <GregorR-L> I was mentally imagining it the other way. I was seeing a vertical tape in my head, with values stretching left-right.
21:41:15 <pgimeno> if you operate going to the right, you move the pointer to the right
21:41:46 <GregorR-L> But it doesn't quite work the same as in BF, so my descriptions weren't helpful :-P
21:46:31 -!- Keymaker has set topic: Somebody make a cooler topic!.
21:51:47 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: Time to fight with BF! Learn FYB (http://www.befunge.org/fyb/) and challenge Gregor's logicex-1.fyb!.
21:59:36 <GregorR-L> It's for my Technical Writing class, so it's just some example situation from the book.
22:35:02 <GregorR-L> Nearly got my compiler working again.
22:43:59 <GregorR-L> I'm not sure what the problem is...
22:44:04 <GregorR-L> It makes C with a bunch of gotos X-D
22:56:25 <GregorR-L> Oy. I'll get back to that later :-P
22:56:49 <GregorR-L> Note: 2L is subject to change when I look closely at my Hello World program and find that I misimplemented it today.
23:00:59 <fizzie> My befunge compiler makes C with _a lot_ of gotos.
23:01:34 <fizzie> See http://befunge.org/~fis/out.c.txt for an example compilation of http://befunge.org/~fis/utm.html although I think I've advertised this thing here too much already.
23:17:42 <fizzie> The compiler is still rather buggy. Haven't had time to fix.
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04:29:47 <GregorR> I sent him a copy of the original 2L!
04:33:26 <GregorR> I KNEW it was supposed to be filled with 0s >_<
04:50:55 <GregorR> http://www.befunge.org/fyb/2l/HelloWorld.2l < Hello World in 2L :)
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07:15:18 <Keymaker> haha, that's probably coolest Hello World i've seen!
07:15:51 <Keymaker> you should add it to that article in wikipedia that has hello world on different languages (including esoteric) :)
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07:40:07 <GregorR> I'll have to write a Wikipedia page for 2L as well...
07:40:17 <GregorR> But I feel bad writing a page about my own language...
07:40:21 <GregorR> Like I'm advertizing myself...
07:40:56 <calamari_> yeah, isn't there a rule against original research?
07:40:57 <Keymaker> i mean i don't think it's advertizing :)
07:41:21 <mtve> there were rumors about deleting most of esoteric things from wikiperia.
07:41:31 <calamari_> seems like everyone to promises to put one up vanishes
07:42:03 <Keymaker> they don't vanish, they just lose their mental health :p
07:42:12 <Keymaker> and aren't able to write anymore
07:42:21 <calamari_> haha.. can't imagine a wiki being that hard to put up
07:42:49 <GregorR> Please do not create an article to promote yourself, a website, a product, or a business (see Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not).
07:43:01 <GregorR> It's not really myself, a website, a product or a business.
07:43:16 <calamari_> it's a product of your insanity ;)
07:43:32 <Keymaker> hm. it isn't advertising in my humble opinion
07:44:43 <calamari_> I doubt anyone would care. just avoid using "I", "me", etc.. :)
07:45:31 <GregorR> How do you use a template...
07:45:57 <Keymaker> don't ask me, just look some other entries "source code"
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07:57:19 <GregorR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2L_programming_language
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08:00:00 <Keymaker> now make the traditional quine example :P
08:00:36 <GregorR> AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH *head explodes*
08:01:01 <Keymaker> actually it wouldn't be probably that complicated
08:02:47 <Keymaker> btw, so there's "infinite" space on right side?
08:03:48 <GregorR> Well, within the limits of the interpreter/compiler's memory
08:03:50 <Keymaker> and the program ends if the pointer's x = -1 or y = -1
08:25:23 <Keymaker> are there two interpreters in the 2L package?
08:29:26 <Keymaker> and probably new-line is value 10 only (hopefully)?
08:35:26 <Keymaker> and what's the file extension for 2l programs?
08:36:09 <calamari> yay.. I'm now vapor.. http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/wiki/index.php
08:36:21 <calamari> how long did that take.. 45 mins or so?
08:36:56 <calamari> Absolutely no content whatsoever
08:37:20 <Keymaker> but didn't someone just recently start an esowiki?
08:37:23 <calamari> I wonder.. should an esoteric wiki be well organized? =)
08:37:36 <calamari> maybe.. but then I heard nothing
08:37:54 <Keymaker> not sure if the starter is here anymore
08:38:00 <calamari> I haven't been here much, though.. so that means nothing :)
08:38:26 <calamari> I think the person was going to copy all the wikipedia content over
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11:17:40 <fizzie> There was a good brainf*ck debugger somewhere?
11:18:01 <pgimeno> I think mine is fairly good
11:20:19 <pgimeno> http://perso.wanadoo.es/p.gimeno/files/brfd10.zip
11:20:51 <fizzie> Last night I wrote a 'regular expression to brainf*ck' compiler in java (parses a regular expression to a nondeterministic state automaton, determinizes and minimizes it, then writes brainf*ck code to "simulate" it) but the code generated is buggy.
11:22:28 <pgimeno> I think you can make use of that debugger, it has a couple of features that may be very helpful when debugging
11:27:53 <fizzie> Ooh, a "step out of current loop" feature is something I've really been looking forward to. :)
11:28:43 <pgimeno> is there a Library of BF Ready-Made Functions somewhere? you know, like you don't have to write the same routine again and again like, e.g. pcre in BF :)
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12:38:29 <fizzie> fis@colin:~/prog/eclipse-workspace/misc$ java -cp . org.gehennom.misc.BFRE 'a(a|b)*b|b(a|b)*a' > ~/prog/misc/brfd/re.bf
12:38:35 <fizzie> fis@colin:~/prog/misc/brfd$ echo -n 'aabbab' | ./BRFD.EXE re.bf
12:38:35 <fizzie> fis@colin:~/prog/misc/brfd$ echo -n 'aabbaa' | ./BRFD.EXE re.bf
12:38:57 <fizzie> "This exhaustive testing conclusively proves it works for all regular expressions and inputs."
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12:41:07 <Keymaker> i don't think there's any brainfuck function collection
12:44:50 <pgimeno> say, you want to operate with numbers > 255 (e.g. to perform a scientific computation; BF is soon to be implemented as the language of choice for scientific computations, replacing the now obsolete FORTRAN). Do you have to write your own bignum library?
12:47:14 <Keymaker> you can operate with really big numbers but it gets really hard
12:47:46 <pgimeno> oh, well, it's up to the compiler to optimize the code so that it runs smoothly
12:49:36 <pgimeno> if the code is slow, it's the compiler's fault
12:51:10 <pgimeno> is there a TPK algorithm implementation in BF?
12:52:30 <pgimeno> it's another kind of language features tester
12:52:42 <Keymaker> would be pretty hard to code in bf i think
12:52:58 <pgimeno> http://www.cs.fit.edu/~ryan/compare/
12:53:17 <Keymaker> yeah, i'm on that page righ now
12:53:29 <pgimeno> Knuth has an Intercal version in his page
13:05:50 <Keymaker> here's a befunge quine i made up today
13:06:05 <Keymaker> this method has been most probably used thousands of times, i have a feeling
13:09:22 <pgimeno> it looks deliciously simple
13:12:18 <pgimeno> I'll have a look when I have some spare time... right now I can't even dedicate to malbolge
13:12:30 <pgimeno> anyway stack-based languages are not among my favorites
13:13:07 <Keymaker> i'm not such fan of stacks, probably because i have never used them before esolangs
13:13:29 <pgimeno> I have written a bit of Forth but I didn't like it
13:13:39 <pgimeno> that's probably why I don't like stacks
13:13:52 <pgimeno> I have to revisit Q-BAL sometime
13:16:02 <Keymaker> ##"57*:,,48*2+,>:#,_48*2+,57*, @ ,*75,+2*84_,#:>,+2*84,,:*75"#
13:16:36 * pgimeno feels a symmetry pattern :P
13:57:14 <Keymaker> the program can change its own code
14:38:55 <fizzie> I'm trying to debug my regexp compiler by looking at the state machines it creates. For something simple like that 'a(a|b)*b|b(a|b)*a' example it works, but for this date-with-time-validating regular expression the generated state machine is.. not very visualizable. You can look at http://gehennom.org/~fis/re.png for an example, but it's a 8422x6504-sized png so looking at it can be a bit sluggish.
14:39:06 <fizzie> I am having some trouble figuring out whether it is "correct" or not. :p
14:41:48 <Keymaker> wow, so does some program do that picture?
14:42:49 <fizzie> Nope, I just dumped the transitions to a text file and mangled it a bit to create a .dot I feeded to graphviz.
14:43:42 <fizzie> I'm going to try combining the multiple transitions to a single arrow, now, the 10+ arrows going from a -> b aren't exactly helping.
14:51:44 <pgimeno> I agree, fizzie, I can't follow that graphic
14:52:36 <pgimeno> looking at the original regex would help as well
14:54:04 <fizzie> My parser doesn't do character classes, so I had to convert [0-9] to (0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9).
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14:57:30 <pgimeno> oh, the motivation of the difficulty... I think I could write a [x-y] range parser in a few minutes, but it's so easy that it's not worth spending time on it :P
15:05:45 <fizzie> Ahh. re2.png and especially re3.png are much clearer. In re2 the transitions have been combined, in re3 the "error state" has been left out.
15:08:40 <fizzie> The regular expression I used was '((0|1|2|_)(1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9)|3(0|1)).((0|_)(1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9)|1(0|1|2)).((0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9)(0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9)(0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9)(0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9)|_) *((0|1)(0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9)|2(0|1|2|3)):(0|1|2|3|4|5)(0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9)(:(0|1|2|3|4|5)(0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9)|:6(0|1)|_)'
15:09:08 <fizzie> (There's a " *" between the parts, that's perhaps not very clear if it line-wraps badly.)
15:09:44 <fizzie> But as far as I can determine, the automaton is correct, so my brainf*ck code is not. Bleh.
15:10:23 <fizzie> That's not _really_ a date-validating regexp, since it doesn't care about number of days in a month.
15:10:37 <fizzie> (It does allow leap seconds, though.)
15:10:43 <Keymaker> what kind of brainfuck code you got?
15:11:45 <fizzie> That's in http://gehennom.org/~fis/re.bf.txt .. it's not very optimized. :p
15:12:06 <Keymaker> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRGH!
15:12:19 <Keymaker> maybe i won't try looking what could be wrong..
15:13:13 <fizzie> You can look at re2.bf.txt if you want, that's commented.
15:13:22 <fizzie> Automatically commented, even. :p
15:15:55 <fizzie> I guess I'll try debugging it when I have some free time. :p
15:16:12 <fizzie> Single-stepping and watching the state transitions helps to see where it goes worng.
15:35:45 <fizzie> fis@colin:~/prog/misc/brfd$ echo -n '11.4.2002 11:03:22' | ./BRFD.EXE re.bf
15:35:45 <fizzie> fis@colin:~/prog/misc/brfd$ echo -n '32.4.2002 11:03:22' | ./BRFD.EXE re.bf
15:35:45 <fizzie> fis@colin:~/prog/misc/brfd$ echo -n '11.4.2002 11:60:22' | ./BRFD.EXE re.bf
15:36:22 <fizzie> There was a simple bug in the few last lines of brainf*ck where it chose what to print.
15:36:50 <pgimeno> hm, according to the graph you can't type 10.x.xxxx
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15:45:43 <fizzie> That's a bug in the regexp, though.
15:46:27 <fizzie> ((0|1|2|_)(1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9)|3(0|1)) should be something like ((0|1|2_)(1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9)|(1|2)0|3(0|1))
15:47:21 <pgimeno> does * have the classical meaning?
15:47:46 <fizzie> _ is the empty string, yes.
15:48:13 <lindi-> uh, which is actually different from epsilon, isn't it? i'm getting confused by the terminology
15:48:44 <pgimeno> I'm used to the (0|1|2)? kind of test
15:49:27 <fizzie> This doesn't have "?". The syntax is straight from our "Introduction to Theoretical Computer Science" course homework assignment checker.
15:50:31 <pgimeno> I haven't read that, I'm just an egrep user :)
16:14:32 <GregorR> Keymaker: 2li.c is an interpreter, 2lc.c is a compiler.
16:26:16 <Keymaker> if you want to check out my programming site i just made the way i want it to be, go here:
16:26:37 <Keymaker> but i hope to add programs there as time passes
16:26:53 <Keymaker> as well, tell me what do you think about the "design"
16:27:29 <GregorR> Gregor is incapable of design decisions.
16:27:50 <GregorR> However, I notice a distinctive lack of 2L quines :-P
16:29:33 <GregorR> I'm almost positive it is - I'm modestly sure that it's BF-complete.
16:29:59 <GregorR> Any BF operation could be done with a bit of blood sweat and tears.
16:30:43 <Keymaker> this channel hasn't been this active for a very long time
16:32:01 <pgimeno> GregorR: well, about hosting 2L
16:32:50 <pgimeno> I can give you a permanent page (not very intuitive but at least immutable in some years)
16:33:28 <GregorR> IE: How is it "not very intuitive"?
16:33:39 <GregorR> Unlike 2L, which is mind-blowingly intuitive :-P
16:33:46 <pgimeno> something like http://www.formauri.es/personal/GregorR/<your page>
16:34:07 <GregorR> I could supply a subdomain.
16:34:27 <GregorR> I own codu.org , but have very minimal space and bandwidth on my host there :-P
16:34:29 <pgimeno> this damn hosting company doesn't allow subdomains
16:34:44 <pgimeno> I can set up a redirection
16:34:55 <GregorR> Well, I meant a redirection from 2l.codu.org
16:35:17 <GregorR> "Whoops, got to make my boss look like I'm doing work" ?
16:38:31 <GregorR> Anyway, yeah, that'd be great
16:39:08 <pgimeno> I'd just want to avoid it being lost like so many others
16:39:40 <pgimeno> I'm afraid of the day web.archive.org is down
16:40:04 <kipple> yeah. I''ve been thinking about that too.
16:40:15 <kipple> too many esolangs exist on only one webpage
16:40:31 <GregorR> Are there any OO esoteric languages (other than Java of course ahaha)
16:41:02 <kipple> is that OO? I don't think so
16:41:27 <pgimeno> too bad it's not turing-complete
16:41:56 <fizzie> Remember that ugly re.bf.txt? I quick-n-dirty-converted it to befunge: http://gehennom.org/~fis/re.bef.txt - I don't have any befunge interpreter here that'd support unlimited-size playfield and [a-f] hex-numbers, so I haven't tested it.
16:44:08 <fizzie> About the only optimization it does it to combine runs of +++s, ---s, <<<s or >>>s into a single 2f*4+f*1+ -style number. Other than that, it's a straight translation of the brainf*ck code.
16:44:25 <fizzie> (Except that loops involve a lot of going-around.)
16:46:34 <fizzie> It's amazing how many diversions one can find when the other alternative would be to read for exams. ('Fundamentals of network media' and 'Discrete Mathematics' both are tomorrow.)
16:47:13 <Keymaker> (i mean i know that allkinds of other stuff can be done easily instead of reading to exams.)
16:47:31 <GregorR> Sometime this week, I will have an esoteric OO programming language ... because the world needs one (other than Java ahaha)
16:50:15 <kipple> so, what OO concepts are you planning to include?
16:51:52 <GregorR> Well, just one sec. Does anybody agree that this would be esoteric (this will be a few lines...):
16:51:57 <GregorR> There is such a thing as a voicebox.
16:51:57 <GregorR> A voicebox can speak a word.
16:51:57 <GregorR> My first voicebox speaks "Hello World!"
16:51:58 <GregorR> When a voicebox is to speak:
16:52:02 <GregorR> My first stdout is to speak the word.
16:52:49 <GregorR> Inheritance wouldn't be too hard, and I have a plan for class variables ... no public/private interfaces.
16:53:39 <pgimeno> fizzie, you're currently hosting GregorR's 2L, right?
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17:47:58 <GregorR> The more I think of it, the more I think that that wouldn't be esoteric enough.
17:48:07 <GregorR> It's sort of pointlessly wordy, but way too intuitive.
17:56:31 <pgimeno> well, I like it and that's enough :)
17:57:19 <pgimeno> some notes about the Wikipedia article
17:58:05 <pgimeno> an example should not be so long
17:59:11 <GregorR> I don't know if I can accomplish anything in less X-D
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18:01:50 <pgimeno> would you allow me to make small edits here and there to let it conform to the Wikipedia policies better?
18:04:38 <pgimeno> the "Hello world" can't be there, would you mind if I take the example from the tutorial?
18:04:58 <GregorR-L> It's even more worthless, but yeah :-P
18:06:00 <pgimeno> it's just for the casual user to get an idea of what a program looks like
18:09:00 <GregorR-L> YAY! 5 midterms in this series and I've gotten an A on every single one 8-D
18:12:50 <pgimeno> btw, it's done: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2L_programming_language
18:15:08 <pgimeno> damn, "Server shutdown in progress"
18:23:12 <pgimeno> I guess that those who want to see what "Hello, world!" looks like will have to visit the page
18:23:39 <pgimeno> oh, as soon as you want me to post it, tell me what the files are and I'll post them
18:46:05 <kipple> Wow, that Hello World looks great :)
18:46:43 <kipple> really nice (read: nasty) language...
19:10:21 <puzzlet> And what's "<" in the sample program in Wikipedia?
19:11:28 <kipple> From the spec: "The < is the direction that your program pointer will be going in when you're done producing the
19:11:44 <kipple> got me confused for a while as well
19:12:33 <puzzlet> i changed "(0,0) moving down" with "(0,0) moving right"
19:12:59 <GregorR-L> It's actually supposed to be "moving down"
19:13:32 <GregorR-L> My OO esoteric language is functional :-P
19:14:08 <kipple> that's nice. Care to show us?
19:15:14 <GregorR-L> Well, I could paste something in here...
19:15:19 <GregorR-L> But I'm still working on the spec.
19:15:24 <kipple> I've started thinking about one myself :)
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19:20:35 <GregorR-L> It has the usefulness of BASIC with the power of English and OO!
19:22:45 <kipple> so, outputter is the only pre-defined object in that code. Am I right?
19:23:03 <GregorR-L> I'm also going to make mathematician
19:23:13 <GregorR-L> I have a mathematician called ProfessorBob
19:23:22 <GregorR-L> ProfessorBob is to increment myNumber.
19:50:04 <pgimeno> that program sounds like some kind of weird poetry
19:50:46 <kipple> kind of like a childrens book :)
20:02:01 <lament> that kind of thing gets very old very fast
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21:26:31 <GregorR> Well. ORK (this OO esoteric language) turns out to be the source of all evil in this world.
21:26:36 <GregorR> However, it is now working.
21:26:46 <GregorR> However however, I'm at work and can't send it up anywhere :(
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21:38:31 <GregorR> (I'm not here, I'm at work ;) )
21:39:47 <GregorR> So I'll upload my esoteric OO language somewhere this evening (when I'm not at work)
21:40:08 <GregorR> This sample will multiply 5 by 5 then output the result
21:40:21 <GregorR> There is a mathematician called ProfBob.
21:40:29 <GregorR> There is an outputter called StdOut.
21:40:34 <GregorR> ProfBob's first operand is 5.
21:40:40 <GregorR> ProfBob's second operand is 5.
21:40:53 <GregorR> StdOut is to output ProfBob's result.
21:41:56 <GregorR> And it's object oriented beyond all usefulness :-P
21:55:04 <Keymaker> must.. invent.. own.. esoteric.. language..
21:56:12 <Keymaker> can't get any connect to brains :p
22:01:41 <GregorR> I think I'm about done creating them ...
22:01:52 <GregorR> I've created a too-little-to-work-with-a-la-BF one...
22:02:01 <GregorR> I've created a too-damn-wordy-to-be-useful one...
22:02:21 <GregorR> But one of these days, I'll go "You know what would be totally worthless..."
22:29:34 <fizzie> I think I want a befunge variant with function calls (simple define-function-with-integer-name, call-function-n and return would suffice, although I'm not sure if there should be a way of having more than a single return value) and perhaps with a _really_ simple module system (load-a-file, which could export a set of functions).
22:29:53 <fizzie> I guess it'd be cheatey and unbefungey, but that'd be a language one could actually use for real-world applications.
22:30:58 <GregorR> I would LOVE to see a non-esoteric 2D language.
22:31:56 <GregorR> My attempts to conceptualize one have all been in vain, however :(
22:42:45 <pgimeno> damn, I've been too busy tonight and I must leave now... I'll read the backlog tomorrow, bye
22:50:09 <Keymaker> i'm too tired to do anything, i'll go too
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23:56:48 <GregorR> I made a quaint little 60-line recursive Fibonacci number generator in ORK :-P
23:57:05 <GregorR> It would have taken, oh, maybe as many as 10 in C++.
00:06:46 <fizzie> I've made a recursive fibonacci in befunge. It takes (optimized; not completely by me) 13x3, 23x2 or 9x4 characters.
00:32:54 <fizzie> >~# :#,_@ (with EOF=0 semantics)
00:34:01 <GregorR> If StdIn says it's done then I am to quit.
00:34:38 <kipple> do you have an interpreter already, or is it all on "paper"?
00:37:23 <GregorR> With the worst parser ever written by mankind.
00:37:43 <kipple> wow! is it written by Mankind? :)
00:37:55 <GregorR> Depends on your definition of me :-P
00:38:09 <kipple> well, I wouldn't know...
00:39:20 <kipple> how do you do that trick to talk about yourself in 3rd person?
00:39:55 * kipple has learned something today
00:43:32 <GregorR> StdOut is to write "Yay!\n"
02:14:30 <GregorR> w00t, loops and conditionals are both working :)
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03:59:55 <GregorR-L> fizzie: Sorry I keep tossing stuff into the FYB web space, I promise that's the last one ;0
04:24:32 <GregorR-L> http://www.befunge.org/fyb/ork/fibonacci.ork < Fibonacci sequence ... particularly ugly 8-D
04:52:39 <GregorR-L> Apparently I'm incapable of writing a Quine.
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07:59:25 <Keymaker> (and yeah i knew it was in ORK)
07:59:29 <GregorR-L> Please don't laugh at how long and stupid it is, it's my first quine ;)
07:59:31 <GregorR-L> http://www.befunge.org/fyb/ork/quine.ork
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08:01:45 <Keymaker> i don't have the slightest idea how it works :) the language is too bizarre :p
08:02:10 <GregorR-L> I haven't documented it yet, so ... *cough*
08:02:21 <GregorR-L> It's stupidly, insanely, idiotically object oriented.
08:02:33 <GregorR-L> The only function you can have outside of an object is "main'
08:03:15 <GregorR-L> Like I said, it's stupidly, insanely, idiotically object oriented. :)
08:05:40 <Keymaker> seems to be turing-complete (at least i'd guess so)
08:06:08 <GregorR-L> It's not as easy to prove as things that you can prove are BF-complete.
08:07:31 <GregorR-L> If I wrote a BF interpreter in ORK, that would prove it was turing complete, yes?
08:08:27 <lament> better yet, try the universal register machine
08:08:54 <calamari> lament: it doesn't get much easier to implement than bf :)
08:09:05 <lament> universal register machine is easier
08:09:49 <lament> http://www.iwriteiam.nl/Ha_bf_Turing.html
08:09:50 <Keymaker> how does universal register machine work?
08:10:31 <lament> actuall it's even more similar to BF than i remembered.
08:10:56 <pgimeno> IIRC Faase's pages hold a description
08:10:57 <GregorR-L> Well, sleepitime for me (right as everybody else is finally becoming active)
08:13:09 <Keymaker> so it is that language is turing-complete if some other, turing-complete, language's interpreter can be written in it?
08:13:24 <Keymaker> like for example bf interpreter?
08:14:17 <lament> or, if you can compile programs in another turing complete language to your language
08:14:23 <pgimeno> oh, lament already posted the page... I think I need more coffee
08:16:10 <lament> note that to actually prove turing completeness with brainfuck
08:16:11 <pgimeno> btw, I've found a language called OOPS in the old Cat's Eye pages which is allegedly object-oriented (thus the name ;) but there's no link - does anyone know anything else?
08:16:11 <Keymaker> is there any language that isn't turing-complete but where still has been written some turing-complete language's interpreter? or could that even be possible?
08:16:20 <lament> you need either an infitite memory size
08:16:37 <lament> there must be SOME way to store arbitrary amount of information
08:16:46 <lament> otherwise it's just a finite state machine
08:17:13 <lament> Keymaker: well i guess
08:17:15 <lament> if you have a language
08:17:27 <lament> in which the only instruction is "input a brainfuck program, and interpret it"
08:17:33 <lament> that language isn't really turing-complete :)
08:17:49 <Keymaker> haha, would be a good joke language
08:18:21 <lament> so i guess writing an interpreter does NOT really prove turing-completeness
08:18:27 <lament> you need to compile stuff
08:18:31 <GregorR> I think that when people are talking about "turing completeness" with respect to programming languages, it really means "x is turing complete within the limitations of the interpreter's memory"
08:18:35 <lament> from a turing-complete lanugage to your langugae
08:19:08 <GregorR> Well then no language is turing complete.
08:19:08 <lament> GregorR: you don't care about interpreters when judging turing-completeness
08:19:20 <GregorR> They're all limited by memory constraints.
08:19:32 <GregorR> The language C is not limited by memory.
08:19:40 <lament> a language defines a specification of a virtual machine
08:19:40 <GregorR> Only the system your run it on is.
08:19:48 <lament> this virtual machine may or may not be turing complete
08:20:01 <lament> it may or may not require infinite memory
08:20:23 <lament> if it does require infinite memory then it's not possible to implement it 100%
08:20:32 <GregorR> Well, doesn't "turing complete" mean that, given the proper programming, it could do any mathematical task?
08:20:34 <lament> but it's turing-complete nonetheless
08:21:01 <lament> GregorR: unfortunately computers are not turing complete :)
08:21:19 <pgimeno> note that sometimes that implies storing the program in the tape
08:21:22 <GregorR> But a LANGUAGE could be if it did not have an implicit memory limit?
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08:21:42 <lament> "brainfuck provides arbitrarily big memory"
08:21:49 <GregorR> So C is turing complete because you could do anything, though you might need to malloc(10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000)
08:22:09 <GregorR> But BF is not because you could never have that many cells.
08:22:28 <pgimeno> you don't need to malloc that much :) just think of the pointer type as an arbitrarily long integer
08:22:51 <lament> GregorR: there's no agreement on whether BF memory is infinite or not
08:23:00 <GregorR> Isn't the language spec 30000 cells?
08:23:12 <lament> 4000 or something, but nobody cares much
08:23:37 <Keymaker> but if i remember correct it's "at least"
08:23:46 <GregorR> So then, if the cell count was built into the language, it could never be turing complete ... but if it wasn't (in BF as an example), it could be?
08:23:49 <lament> and i don't think the cell size is ever specified
08:24:05 <lament> which could mean that the cells themselves can be infinitely big
08:24:12 <lament> in which case you don't need too many of them to be turing-complete
08:24:21 <GregorR> So long as there's infinite means for storage.
08:24:31 <GregorR> (In the perfect scenario that can never be attained :-P )
08:24:32 <lament> i wonder how few you need
08:24:44 <lament> actually in BF you probably still need infinite number of cells
08:24:54 <lament> but i'm not gonna try proving that :|
08:25:13 <pgimeno> did someone read http://esoteric.sange.fi/ENSI/brainfuck-1.0.txt ?
08:25:20 <GregorR> I'm still confident that both 2L and ORK are turing complete (2L within the bounds of memory of course)
08:25:30 <lament> pgimeno: that spec is great
08:25:54 <lament> anyway even if you take BF's memory to be 30000
08:26:06 <lament> it's still intuitively turing complete
08:26:12 <lament> for any "small enough" problem
08:26:19 <lament> and if the problem is bigger, you just increase the memory size
08:26:23 <GregorR> Well, but doesn't turing complete MEAN for ANY problem?
08:26:26 <lament> since 30000 is clearly just an arbitrary number
08:26:43 <lament> ANY problem would still need only finite memory
08:26:46 <GregorR> So, BF itself is, if 30000 is not taken to be part of the language, but of the implementation.
08:27:01 <lament> no matter how big your problem is
08:27:06 <lament> it only needs a finite memory
08:27:16 <GregorR> Calculating every digit of pi.
08:27:23 <GregorR> Infinite time, infinite memory.
08:27:23 <lament> that's not a valid problem
08:27:44 <GregorR> OK, I've REALLY got to sleep now.
08:28:34 <lament> calculating pi to N digits is a valid problem :)
08:29:30 <GregorR> OK, OK: A language is turing complete IF given infinite memory and code space, it could solve any mathematical problem. Is that a good all-inclusive definition?
08:29:45 <GregorR> (Trust me, I'm asleep ;) )
08:30:05 <lament> still it's s/infinite/arbitrary
08:30:49 <GregorR> Well, if it was given infinite, it still certainly could ... and I think that's a bit easier to explain ...
08:30:54 <GregorR> How about "sufficiently large"
08:31:23 <GregorR> OK, now I'm REALLY REALLY sleeping.
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08:32:50 <pgimeno> the exclusion of infinite algorithms is somwehat puzzling to me... this C program: main() {printf("0."); while (1) printf("3");} obviously prints the infinite expansion of 1/3 even if it's not a valid algorithm
08:33:25 <lindi-> GregorR: why use such an obscure definitions? what's a "mathematical problem" anyway?
08:33:52 <lament> pgimeno: well, the reason is
08:34:00 <lament> pgimeno: turing machines don't have IO
08:34:10 <lament> you don't look at IO when deciding it
08:34:13 <lament> it's just a side effect
08:34:37 <lament> only at the state of the machine when the program terminates
08:35:47 <lament> but remember the pioneers were looking from a mathematical perspective
08:36:41 <pgimeno> oh, well, I suppose it's just a question of historical reasons
08:37:43 <pgimeno> but being limited to analysis of finite programs for historical reasons makes little sense to me
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13:07:10 <Keymaker> (or don't know if it's challenging)
13:08:44 <Keymaker> make a file that has 32 characters in it: those characters should be the md5 hash of the file
13:09:15 <Keymaker> so, the data inside the file should be the md5 hash of the file
13:12:01 <Keymaker> if that is possible it's probably not easy to find
13:13:24 <pgimeno> (your web page looks awesome, btw)
13:13:37 <Keymaker> thanks, you're first to say that :)
13:14:16 <pgimeno> I feel that the befunge quine is a bit cheatful though, in the sense that it reads its own source
13:14:58 <Keymaker> but quine still ;) and valid program
13:15:42 <pgimeno> it's quite compact and easy to understand (even for me who still didn't know anything about the Befunge instructions)
13:17:26 <Keymaker> the quine works the way that first it reads it own instructions to stack (stuff inside " ")
13:17:37 <Keymaker> and the it executes the instructions
13:17:53 <Keymaker> the instructions tell it to print out '"'s and the stuff there is in stack
13:19:02 <Keymaker> so at the end of 80 char line it jumps to place 2 to the beginning of the program and not to place 1 which is '"'
13:20:51 <Keymaker> did you read that my challenge?
13:21:06 <Keymaker> (that i wrote some minutes ago?)
13:21:46 <pgimeno> I'm sure MD5 has a "fixed point"
13:22:05 <pgimeno> (don't know if that's the right name in English; in spanish it's "punto fijo")
13:22:22 <Keymaker> i have no idea either but i assume i see what you mean
13:22:25 <pgimeno> a value such that f(a) = a
13:22:51 <pgimeno> I think that that's too big a challenge
13:23:11 <Keymaker> takes at least lot of calculations
13:23:18 <pgimeno> finding an MD5 collision has taken many years since MD5 was invented
13:23:30 <pgimeno> I think that's about as much challenging as an MD5 collision
13:23:54 <pgimeno> finding two files with the same hash
13:24:18 <pgimeno> two *different* files, that is :)
13:24:43 <pgimeno> yes, of course, I think it's been done early this year
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13:25:32 <Keymaker> i have no idea when, but i cna't remember where i found the fact
13:25:39 <Keymaker> i think it was somewhere in wikipedia
13:26:24 <pgimeno> MD4 has been cracked; perhaps it's feasible (for us anyway) to find fixed points (or whatever it is called) with it
13:28:00 <pgimeno> I'm don't feel much like taking a challenge right now, though - I prefer to try to end my current projects in my scarce spare time
13:28:40 <pgimeno> btw, I've seen GregorR's Ork and I've liked it very much!
13:28:56 <Keymaker> and awesome that he made a quine in it
13:29:02 <pgimeno> maybe it can be converted to an educational language even
13:29:31 <Keymaker> (and about the challenge: it was mostly for laughs, i didn't even think that anyone would try to solve it!)
13:29:58 <KnX> i'm searching peoples who wrote funge-98 interpreters , is there anyone here ? ( i'm trying to write mine, and have some questions )
13:30:18 <Keymaker> hmm, interesting project, but i haven't seen any
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14:06:29 <Keymakere> i made a new befunge quine that's nicely 42 instructions
14:06:33 <Keymakere> <> #"25*6*:,2+:,2+2/:,3+:,1-,>:#,_57*1-,@"
14:13:12 <GregorR> My ORK Quine is 102 lines :-P
14:13:23 <GregorR> I think yours is cleaner :-P
14:15:48 <Keymakere> whe does "Keymaker" leave this channel?
14:16:06 <Keymakere> i want to change my name already..
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15:38:50 <Keymaker> aaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
15:39:55 <Keymaker> all this time i've been trying to find a f*cking dvd player for ******* Windows.. i just can't find any
15:40:47 <Keymaker> even some trial version is ok, but some that doesn't stop after three minutes (man some are stupid)
15:41:18 <Keymaker> i had to play 15 minutes breakout to get more calm
15:42:26 <Keymaker> and yes, the dvd player here in linux complains something that "error reading NAV packet"
15:43:05 <Keymaker> soon i'll smash the keyboard through window
15:43:45 <Keymaker> rgh i have to read some linux books. i can't use this. i'm too afraid to try how stuff works.
15:44:09 <Keymaker> so i can't install any new program here probably, not to mention finding some stuff from web if i need to get something
15:44:25 <Keymaker> well i go searching...... i'm so annoyed.........
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16:03:57 <pgimeno> GregorR: did I already mention that ORK ROKs? :)
16:49:05 <GregorR> Heheh, yes you did pgimeno, but I have no problem with being showered with praise *shrugs*
16:49:37 <GregorR> And yes, actually, I was thinking when I was done that it would make a good quick-intro to object oriented programming that doesn't involve concurrently learning C++ syntax.
16:50:08 <GregorR> I'm still in the middle of writing a howto for it, however.
16:52:13 <GregorR> Keymaker: Win...dows? Isn't that some archaic operating system that nobody uses anymore? (In the happy universe in my head :'( )
16:53:47 <pgimeno> I like these constructs very much and I'm eager to read the specs
16:54:28 <pgimeno> (I see no Keymaker around btw, though he usually reads the logs)
17:04:40 <GregorR> Yeah, I was under the impression that he did.
17:05:02 <GregorR> My current revision of the specs (which I can't upload from work >_<) are done, but worthless :-P
17:10:13 <GregorR> Any technical writers hang out on #esoteric? :-P
17:14:20 * GregorR suddenly remembers pgimeno's article site.
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18:06:33 <Keymaker> and i wish i wouldn't need to use windows never again
18:06:45 <Keymaker> well, maybe later i don't have to
18:06:48 <GregorR> I haven't used Windows in ....
18:07:03 <GregorR> I don't even remember the last time I actively used Windows.
18:07:24 <GregorR> I work purely in a UNIX and GNU/Linux environment at work, I run GNU/Linux and the occasional BSD on my home systems..
18:08:29 <Keymaker> ok. i wonder has there ever been any medical research about "how $/m windows affects one's health"
18:08:50 <Keymaker> probably the results would have been that active use of microsoft products causes
18:09:20 <Keymaker> [insert some medical stuff here]
18:09:32 <GregorR> Has there ever been any medical research into the effects of BrainFuck on the human ... err ... brain?
18:10:17 <Keymaker> it would probably be filled with positive stuff how that wonderful language increases brain capacity and keeps brain in good condition
18:10:20 <GregorR> "Well, time to go to the store >>>>>>>>>> I'll take one of these - and one of these >- and two of those >>>--
18:11:58 <Keymaker> must go yet again. hopefully i can get to see the dvd..
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18:14:12 <GregorR> By the way, whoever reads this log in the future, my "lol" up there was in response to Keymaker, not myself, I'm not so lame as to lol to my own joke.
18:16:37 * GregorR suddenly realizes the implications of somebody reading the log in the future.
18:16:59 <GregorR> If somebody reads this log in 2015, when I am inevitably world-famous, what will they think of me?
18:17:18 <lament> millions of people read #esoteric log every day
18:17:24 <lament> with their morning coffee
18:17:44 <GregorR> I don't so much care about current reading ... it's how it reflects on my future.
18:17:59 <GregorR> Will ORK get me hoisted from my position as supreme overlord of Earth? I don't like that thought.
18:19:18 <lament> for some reason i read that "from" as "to"
18:19:23 <lament> it makes more sense that way
18:49:18 <pgimeno> GregorR: sorry for the delay... about the spec, could I take a look at it somehow?
19:07:06 <GregorR> Not until at least this evening - I can't connect to my work's WLAN on my laptop, and have no other way of transferring off the files, so they languish there until I go home. At that point, of course.
19:08:02 <GregorR> Err, this evening in my timezone...
19:09:05 <GregorR> So, tomorrow morning for you I guess.
19:10:18 <GregorR> I'm not actually on my laptop, I'm on my work comp.
19:10:24 <GregorR> My laptop has no network connection whatsoever.
19:15:18 <pgimeno> you can always type in the file ;)
19:15:51 <pgimeno> if it's too much work, you can gzip | uuencode it first so it's smaller
19:16:16 <pgimeno> and type in the uuencoded version
19:20:01 <GregorR> Why didn't I think of that?!
19:20:45 <GregorR> M9&9A:75S:&]D9G5I9&AA<V9P;VEH96%W:6]P9FAE9'-A:6]F:&4@87=I;V9H
19:20:56 <pgimeno> perhaps because you have not typed in many machine-code Spectrum programs :P
19:21:35 <GregorR> No otherr interface between Spectrums and IAs?
19:21:51 <pgimeno> between magazines and speccies anyway
19:22:10 <pgimeno> until they started distributing tapes with the magazines
19:49:43 <fizzie> I typed in some sid tunes on a c128 (with it's built-in monitor thing) since I had no working cable to transfer them, and the tape-recording method just didn't work.
19:52:23 <pgimeno> I still don't know how exactly is a sid tune... the idea I got is that it's a machine-code program directly talking to the sound chip, is that right?
20:31:03 <fizzie> The sound chip itself is pretty funky, too.
20:31:46 <pgimeno> I don't know the details but I remember a few aspects, yeah...
20:57:08 <fizzie> I used what's basically a software emulation of SID for the "software synthesizer" (a bit too fine words for that... thing) in one 4k intro (demoscene thing) that never got finished.
21:02:06 <pgimeno> heh, nice... I also planned to use software synthesis in a 4K intro (regular FM synthesis in my case)
21:02:33 <pgimeno> ... and it was never finished either :)
21:03:43 <fizzie> I had some trouble fitting X11, opengl and that soft-synth in a 4K elf executable - or actually having any space left over to insert actual code in. :p
21:03:46 <pgimeno> I even prepared a .mod converter
21:05:35 <pgimeno> DOS has the advantage that executable headers are either nonexistent (for .com) or can be shrunk to 32 bytes (for .exe)
21:05:38 <fizzie> DOS is nicer - there's a _lot_ of overhead in the (dynamic linking things and) executables gnu 'ld' generates, but writing them manually wasn't very appealing.
21:05:49 -!- rollman has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
21:06:11 <pgimeno> isn't full sid emulation just too much for a 4K intro?
21:06:47 <fizzie> Well, it wasn't really sid emulation, the concepts were just sid-inspired. It didn't try to provide SID control registers or anything.
21:07:27 <pgimeno> does the music exist? mine does, if you want to hear it
21:08:10 <pgimeno> hm, we're a bit off topic here
21:08:32 <fizzie> ELF headers can be squeezed pretty tight, too - some of the headers can be "interlaced" and code embedded in otherwise-useless parts. I have a (far from completely optimized) "false" and "true" executables, both 76 bytes in size.
21:09:18 <pgimeno> that's it! FALSE is an esoteric language and TRUE is too ;)
21:09:24 <GregorR> AHAHAH I should implement networking in ORK then implement the DirectNet protocol in it :-P
21:09:36 <fizzie> There wasn't any real music, just test tunes for the thing, I was going to let a more musically talented person write that stuff. I can barely create noise, much less any music.
21:10:06 <fizzie> Er, right, that was pretty off-topic. I guess I should concentrate on that 'structural befunge' initiative.
21:10:10 <pgimeno> in my case, the group's musician composed it
21:12:24 <GregorR> Hmm, object oriented befunge...
21:14:18 <pgimeno> damn, I didn't remember I had actually posted my bf debugger in my homepage
21:14:57 <pgimeno> anyway it will be moved from there as soon as I prepare the esolang page
21:15:27 <fizzie> That thing was very helpful in debugging that regexp-to-brainf*ck mungler.
21:16:00 <pgimeno> sorry if it was too DOS-stylish, I'm working on that
21:16:41 <GregorR> So are you going to weave esoteric programming into the esolang page?
21:16:49 <GregorR> Have befunge or PATH running through the background...
21:17:18 <GregorR> Write the entire page in SPL 8-D
21:17:39 <pgimeno> oh well, I'm currently using PHP but I guess I could port it to something else
21:17:41 <fizzie> Didn't I write a web server in funge98, or was that just a dream?
21:18:27 <GregorR> I want to see a BF web server ... obviously you would need to run it as " nc -e bfi httpd.bf -l -p 80 "
21:19:21 <pgimeno> I'm afraid of nc after looking at the code, now I use tcpserver
21:21:10 <fizzie> I think I added an SCKE extension (with a 'peek for incoming data' command) to augment the SOCK extension, for the web server, but I'm not sure I ever got around to writing the server itself.
21:21:29 <fizzie> (Actually I've been wanting to do some dynamic web-stuff with Scheme, but that's not esoteric either.)
21:22:50 <pgimeno> I think I've seen some Debian package which was actually a Scheme script somewhere... I don't remember what it was right now
21:22:52 <GregorR> pgimeno: Original nc or GNU netcat?
21:23:13 <pgimeno> the one shipped with Debian
21:23:20 <GregorR> I believe GNU netcat was a total rewrite.
21:24:16 * pgimeno files that info somewhere in the queue for later processing
21:39:45 <GregorR> pgimeno: I just figured out what you meant so many messages ago about "currently in PHP but I could port it to something else"
21:40:03 <GregorR> I actually meant in the design of the page, have little bits of esoteric programming snuck in, not in the language the page is written in.
21:40:56 <pgimeno> do you mean as a background or something?
21:42:02 <pgimeno> oh, I have just reread your sentence
21:42:12 <pgimeno> now I understand it better
21:50:28 -!- KnX has joined.
21:53:28 <KnX> i'm searching an efficient implementation for an arbitrary-dimentional funge-space in C, if someone has a good idea ...
22:15:43 <KnX> is there someone alive for a fingeprint-related question ?
22:28:02 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:29:02 -!- GregorR has joined.
22:29:56 <pgimeno> if it's funge-related then I'm not funge-oriented
22:30:31 <KnX> it's funge-related
22:30:59 <pgimeno> sorry then, I can't help with that
22:33:05 <KnX> if i remember well my maths , "if ( if it's funge-related then I'm not funge-oriented ) is true , then ( if i'm funge-oriented then it's not funge-related ) is true" , sounds like murphy's law
22:34:14 <pgimeno> hehehe, you're pretty much right I'm afraid
22:38:00 <GregorR> I could get into Befunge ... but I've always found it to be not quite esoteric enough ;)
22:38:53 <KnX> compared to other esoteric , he is very easy to learn and usable , making it less esoteric i think
22:39:26 <pgimeno> FYI, I have a project dedicated to a Malbolge program
22:40:17 <pgimeno> that's also very easy to learn and usable, ya know
22:40:20 <KnX> I don't know malbolge very well, if you have an URL with specs ...
22:40:25 <GregorR> See, now, Malbolge is just TOO esoteric for me.
22:40:50 <pgimeno> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbolge_programming_language
22:41:23 <GregorR> See, BF is the PERFECT esoteric language, because it's just minimalist. It's not that it's necessarily designed to hinder you, it's just designed with the minimum number of features to function.
22:41:57 <pgimeno> I think that Thue meets these characteristics too
22:44:49 <pgimeno> it's my non-deterministic language of choice
22:45:41 <pgimeno> if you're very Thue-oriented you can hand-compile Thue programs in most current languages
22:46:36 <pgimeno> (C has just such stupid string handling philosophy that doesn't fit well in that cathegory)
22:47:25 -!- Keymakere has joined.
22:48:20 <Keymakere> (as well, finally found a working dvd player; VLC media player. had to quit the movie because i started to fall asleep :))
22:48:25 <GregorR> As per usual, Gregor is the only person who actually LIKES pointer manipulation.
22:48:38 <Keymakere> (it's not boring but that always happens)
22:48:59 <Keymakere> btw, could someone tell me how thue works?
22:49:08 <Keymakere> i've been trying to understand it couple of times
22:49:17 <pgimeno> GregorR: I'm not saying it's bad, it's just too low-level for certain things
22:49:23 <Keymakere> the official manula doesn't tell almost anything
22:49:37 -!- Keymakere has changed nick to Keymaker.
22:49:38 <pgimeno> Thue is just pure and mere string substitution
22:50:06 <pgimeno> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thue_programming_language
22:50:32 <pgimeno> oops, follow the link to the spec, please
22:50:35 <KnX> ( understanding how thue work is a thing, but understanding how to work with thue .... :/ )
22:51:25 <pgimeno> http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/projects/thue/doc/thue.txt
22:51:57 <Keymaker> it doesn't explain almost anything (at least to me)
22:52:21 <GregorR> Keymaker: Have you taken a logic programming class?
22:52:50 <GregorR> Yeah, that goes well into the deep pit of logic programming :-P
22:53:03 <GregorR> Wooh PROLOG, right on the edge of esotiridom.
22:53:34 <Keymaker> like there isn't even mentioned any 0 or 1 in thue.txt yet those example programs are filled with them etc..
22:54:01 <pgimeno> http://web.archive.org/web/20031210145310/http://cyberspace.org/~lament/thue.html
22:55:14 <pgimeno> there are a couple find-and-replace rules and a starting string, that's all
22:55:19 <GregorR> BTW, is the esolangs page going to have something like an editor's choice of languages?
22:55:21 <pgimeno> well, there are special rules for I/O
22:55:57 <pgimeno> it's not meant to be a generic page, just the stuff I've dedicated to and perhaps a bit of preservation effort
22:56:15 <Keymaker> and as well there's @ and * and . and stuff like that not mentioned in the manual. well, maybe i should try harder to understand it. but someone should make a thue tutorial!
22:56:26 <Keymaker> (or at least explain the language to me so i could make one :p)
22:56:26 <GregorR> It'd be nice if it had a "preservation wiki" where people could just copy in stuff that was in threat of doom.
22:56:31 <pgimeno> these are just strings, not instructions
22:57:39 <pgimeno> calamari set up a wiki yesterday or so...
22:58:11 <Keymaker> i really would like to learn it
22:58:26 * pgimeno is drowning in Mozilla tabs and windows
22:59:04 <GregorR> Thue definitely looks like you'd need to take logic programming first ... at least learn prolog from some site online ... it's a fundamentally different programming theory.
22:59:14 * KnX wants tree-oriented Mozilla tabs
22:59:43 <GregorR> I think the tab-maintanence time would overwhelm the usefulness of such a setup, unless the tabs organized themselves somehow...
23:00:02 <GregorR> Maybe by site? (google tabs, esoteric.sange.fi tabs...)
23:00:06 <KnX> yes, they have to self-organize in some way
23:00:23 <pgimeno> yes, GregorR, it's a different paradigm but not so hard to try
23:00:49 <KnX> maybe replace the "open in tabs" by "open as new root" , "open as child" , "open as sibling"
23:01:10 <GregorR> I guess I'm exaggerating it's strangeness to the average functional/OO programmer.
23:01:51 <GregorR> Somebody run a third conversation, I want to make sure that the people who read this log have no idea what anybody's talking about.
23:02:42 <GregorR> I'll start a third conversation with self-indulgance: http://directnet.sourceforge.net/ 8-D
23:02:57 <GregorR> OK, about Mozilla tabs, don't you think that the several open options might make simple actions more confusing?
23:03:16 <GregorR> And have you ever heard of Caves of Gorlop? It's written in Prolog and it's rouge-like.
23:04:33 <GregorR> Yeah. But it's written in Prolog so it's really weird.
23:04:57 <GregorR> Merely because logic programming is probably not the best for rouge-like games :-P
23:05:29 <GregorR> Hmmmmmm, brief example ...
23:05:52 <GregorR> That's a stupid example...
23:06:09 <GregorR> But that would say that the predicate T is true where X (its parameter) is less than 3, or equal to 5.
23:06:11 <fizzie> I don't think (after a quick look) that Thue is _that_ much like logic programming. Sure, there's the non-determinism, but Thue seems simply to be an "algorithm" for applying unrestricted grammars, whereas I associate logic programming with a set of structured facts, predicates and a unification system for answering queries about it.
23:06:31 <GregorR> Well, grammars and logic programming are sort of related.
23:06:44 <fizzie> Everything's sort of related. :p
23:06:51 <GregorR> Way back when I was referring to logic programming classes, which is where one would generally first learn about grammars.
23:08:17 <GregorR> (Merely because grammars are easier to implement in logic programming than in functional/OO programming)
23:11:16 <fizzie> I think here (hut.fi) people usually learn about grammars on "T-79.148 introduction to theoretical computer science", which (for most people) comes before "T-93.540 logic programming". Parsing grammars is another thing, though. (Although intro-to-tcs did have some lecture slides and assignments about using CYK to parse context-free grammars.)
23:13:33 <GregorR> Wow. I have never seen class numbers look so foreign to me ...
23:16:10 <pgimeno> I think that Thue is the missing link between Goedel's theorem and Turing's halting problem
23:17:29 <fizzie> (The numbers are of the form <department>-<"section">.<id>. 'T' is for computer science ('tietotekniikka'), and 79 is the theoretical computer science lab, whereas 93 would be 'information processing science'.)
23:20:17 <GregorR> I ought to do some work ...
23:20:23 <GregorR> What with my sitting in a cube ...
23:21:47 <GregorR> I'm a "Software Build Engineer"
23:22:19 <GregorR> I keep software up to date across UNIX and GNU/Linux systems.
23:22:28 <GregorR> Open source software, specifically.
23:23:19 <fizzie> "But isn't that just apt-get update ; apt-get upgrade?" :p
23:24:37 <GregorR> There are SOOO many stupid issues.
23:24:51 <GregorR> "I'm using Perl 5.004 and I want PerlQt but not with the latest Qt, I need Qt 3.0"
23:25:18 <GregorR> If it was just about keeping everything at the latest, and it was just GNU/Linux, I wouldn't have this job :-P
23:33:33 <Keymaker> rgh.. i'm tired. or well, i don't feel very tired but brain doesn't work, so it's time to get some sleep. it's annoying when you can't concentrate thinking some stuff. like for example i would like to program in brainfuck now but can't even get program idea (or well, i have some but can't get those started with this brain).
23:33:47 <Keymaker> well, see you today later/earlier :)
23:34:01 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!").
23:36:08 <fizzie> Oh, it's 01:30am localtime already.
23:36:55 <GregorR> I'm clearly on the wrong side of the planet ;)
23:37:21 <GregorR> pgimeno: If you go to sleep now and wake up early, you can be up in time to get specs on ORK ;)
23:37:28 <KnX> looks like google-translator can't help me , how do you name in english the parts of a finger ( in french it's phallanges FYI ) ?
23:37:53 <KnX> ( yes it's befunge-related )
23:38:04 <GregorR> Being a native English speaker, I ought to be able to answer that.
23:38:15 <GregorR> I'm going to vote knuckle, but I'm not sure if that's what you're looking for.
23:38:44 <fizzie> Being a non-native speaker, wordnet has "1. (3) phalanx -- (any of the bones (or phalanges) of the fingers or toes)" but I wouldn't have recognized that.
23:39:25 <pgimeno> what's the plural of phalanx?
23:39:41 <KnX> wordreferences doesn't find anything for phallanges
23:39:45 <GregorR> I don't think any native speaker would recognize that word, seems pretty, oh, esoteric to me.
23:40:06 <KnX> mmm, strange
23:40:32 <KnX> English->French with phalanx gives me phallange , but French->English with phallange doesn't give me anything
23:41:01 <KnX> i feel curious about they searching algorithm / database
23:41:10 <pgimeno> let me insist in the single "l"
23:41:24 <pgimeno> (that's the letter L not the number 1)
23:42:06 <GregorR> Spelled like that, that is.
23:42:21 <GregorR> Rather than phalanx, which I don't think anybody would recognize.
23:43:35 <KnX> it's just because i have always some difficulties to find names for my variables and structs , and for something a part of a fingerprint, i thought about a phalanxprint, but i think it won't help anybody to understand with a name like this ...
23:44:21 <pgimeno> heh, <http://images.google.com/images?q=phalanx> shows the hand's bones in the second page
23:45:41 <GregorR> Why not use your native tongue?
23:47:11 <KnX> i prefer english for C, kind of a standard
23:48:03 <GregorR> I guess I can see the logic behind that - if your code falls into the hands of somebody else, they'll likely at least speak some English.
23:48:13 <GregorR> Because English is taking over the planet >_>
23:48:20 <GregorR> Which is both a good thing and a bad thing.
00:04:04 <pgimeno> here in Spain people try to make distinctions by language while the rest of the world are making efforts towards unification :(
00:08:09 -!- calamari has joined.
00:08:50 <GregorR> Let's see how immense Gregor's Spanish vocabulary is from the two terms he took...
00:09:58 <GregorR> Oh, that's the other word I know.
00:11:02 <GregorR> Sorry for mangling your language pgimeno :P
00:11:50 <GregorR> Good, but Linux is a word I don't know.
00:12:08 <calamari> Gnome, actually.. being a pita
00:12:36 <pgimeno> calamari, http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/wiki/index.php?pagename=GeneralDiscussion
00:14:25 <pgimeno> rather than "Yo estoy bueno" it'd be "Estoy bien" ("Yo estoy bueno" is something like "I look awesome" in local slang)
00:16:46 <KnX> remember me something ...
00:16:57 <KnX> spent a whole week in a family in spain
00:17:02 <KnX> for a school travel
00:17:22 <KnX> saying "estas bueno" or something like this to say it was ok
00:17:44 <KnX> at last the ( in fact beautifull ) girl of the home told us about our mistake
00:18:57 <calamari> pgimeno: It'll last.. it's on my shell, which I use for E-mail, and never plan to get rid of ($5/month how can I beat that?)
00:19:04 <pgimeno> is there an official character encoding in FreeNode?
00:19:15 <calamari> pgimeno: not exactly crazy about that wiki software tho.. seems slow and buggy
00:19:30 <pgimeno> calamari: yeah it looks a bit buggy :)
00:19:31 <calamari> sometimes it renders the page wrong for me.. refresh and its fine
00:19:42 <pgimeno> I can't get it right even after refresh
00:19:50 <pgimeno> maybe a stylesheet issue or something
00:20:54 <pgimeno> anyway, in case you plan to maintain it for at least, say, five years I'd go for that
00:23:21 <pgimeno> maybe MoinMoin works better than that
00:25:14 <KnX> somebody knows why programming creativity explodes after midnight ?
00:25:40 <pgimeno> because otherwise how else would you be late to work?
00:26:29 <GregorR> I wonder if I could write a quine in 2L (no)
00:26:51 <GregorR> Sounds like one form of painful death.
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02:48:29 <GregorR> All the Europeans are asleep I imagine.
03:00:12 <pgimeno> I'm geeker than that actually
03:03:47 <GregorR> http://www.befunge.org/fyb/ork/partialSpec
03:04:02 <GregorR> It's not done or pretty, but it has the basics.
03:06:16 <pgimeno> a suggestion: try to differentiate the language constructs from the regular text, e.g. by indenting language constructs
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03:08:40 <pgimeno> wee, and you say you have a compiler for it?!
03:09:46 <pgimeno> did I already say it rocks?
03:10:22 <GregorR> It has some nice ascii-code-to-string-and-back conversion.
03:10:50 <pgimeno> you're going to burst my exclamation abilities
03:11:08 <pgimeno> burst is the right word here?
03:11:26 <GregorR> I think so, if you're saying what I think you're saying :-P
03:11:53 <GregorR> I think ORK can take it's place as esoterica's needlessly object oriented language, no?
03:11:58 <pgimeno> I mean, I'll run out of exclamations before I express it
03:12:05 <GregorR> Yeah, that's what I thought :-P
03:12:36 <pgimeno> it would not be too hard to interpret, I think
03:13:44 <GregorR> It's just easier to compile to C++ *shrugs*
03:13:52 <GregorR> That way I don't actually have to worry about the object orientation 8-D
03:14:20 <pgimeno> hehe, that's what I supposed
03:14:54 <pgimeno> I still haven't been able to get hold of any OOPS version
03:15:11 <GregorR> Let's make a pact to keep ORK alive :-P
03:15:42 <pgimeno> it's your only potential competitor and there's no instance of the OOPS class so I guess yours is it :)
03:16:09 <pgimeno> yours is the OO esoteric language, I mean
03:16:21 <GregorR> AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
03:16:28 <GregorR> MY BF INTERPRETER (missing features) WORKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
03:16:38 <GregorR> Once I get loops working, I'm in da money!!!!
03:17:29 <GregorR> It's quite possibly the ugliest thing ever :)
03:17:54 <pgimeno> [insert funny exclamation here]!
03:18:16 <GregorR> Well, I'm going to dive deep into loops, so I probably won't be responsive for at least a half hour.
03:18:24 <GregorR> If you're still awake then ... holy crap man, go to sleep ;)
03:18:29 <pgimeno> I have to leave now actually
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04:13:02 <GregorR-L> In BF, you can make a program that does a disturbing amount of function and fit it easily in 1/2 page.
04:13:14 <GregorR-L> In ORK, the fibonacci sequence is 1 1/2...
04:17:58 <GregorR-L> http://www.befunge.org/fyb/ork/orkfuck.ork :)
04:33:27 <GregorR-L> I love how my celebration goes totally unnoted if I celebrate in (my) evening.
04:34:36 <GregorR-L> I'm sure pgimeno will wake up in a half hour at 6:00AM :-P
04:36:55 <GregorR-L> So how's your x-dimensional funge interpreter going?
04:37:50 <KnX> i'll stuck with my current idea
04:38:07 <KnX> a very ugly big hashtable
04:38:37 <KnX> no current code yet
04:38:53 <KnX> juste code thinking and design
04:39:06 <GregorR-L> Clearly the better way to go, though I usually don't :-P
04:39:38 <KnX> it's a good way if i can manage to no-overdesign the project
04:40:26 <GregorR-L> The person writing the curses UI for DirectNet spent a ludicrous amount of time on design, and then scrapped large chunks of it when it didn't quite work right :-P
04:42:29 <KnX> i'll have to try directnet
04:43:06 <GregorR-L> Bwahahahah, one advertizement point to me :-P
04:43:51 <KnX> i used the future
04:44:20 <KnX> wich is usualy exponentialy long according to my todolist
04:45:35 <KnX> humans need a fork mechanism, i am too often in a "A and B are both interesting things to do, wichever to work on first ?"
04:46:02 <GregorR-L> Problem is, once you've forked you can never recombine.
04:46:06 <KnX> and the chosen one becones the not chosen one just after
04:46:29 <GregorR-L> You need pthread_create so that one of them can write it's memory to the other :-P
04:47:45 <KnX> Real Problem (tm) is, if programmers can fork without some kind of sex or girl limitation, for efficiency sake, world is in danger
04:49:06 <KnX> next problem is "it's 5:45 AM, my bag is not ready, i slept 1 hour, i have a 3 hour long bus travel waiting me in 15min"
04:49:41 <GregorR-L> And hence, you will inevitably forget something significant.
05:03:17 <KnX> 8 minutes ?
05:03:39 <GregorR-L> CTCP TIME says your clock says 5:59 now.
05:03:58 <GregorR-L> Oh, what I meant was you had 8 minutes left ;)
05:30:28 <calamari_> GregorR-L: could you please pass a message to pgimeno when you see 'em? I've set up a MoinMoin wiki as suggested, and it works a LOT better. I'm setting my domain to forward http://esowiki.kidsquid.com/ to the wiki.
05:31:29 <GregorR-L> In all likelihood, he will read that from the log. If I see him before you, sure.
05:33:33 <calamari_> he was worried that it'd be going away soon.. but I have no plans of doing that. I should have the kidsquid.com domain for a long time, so I'll update the redirect if it's ever needed
06:43:11 <calamari_> getting tired? http://esowiki.kidsquid.com/ is up and running :)
06:53:22 <GregorR-L> It would be trivial to make it just run bfi...
06:53:29 <GregorR-L> I want to actually implement the interpretation in the kernel.
06:55:08 <GregorR-L> Well, the actuall code in ELF files is implemented by the CPU.
06:55:33 <calamari_> an elf file isn't calling /bin/elf :)
06:55:51 <GregorR-L> Well, right no I'm failing miserably :-P
06:55:51 <calamari_> didn't realize you were a kernel hacker
06:58:25 <GregorR-L> But speaking more seriously, I did make a case insensitive ext3 driver.
06:58:42 <GregorR-L> Unfortunately, it seems that the plethora of usermode programs still makes case insensitivity a problem.
07:29:34 <GregorR-L> I don't think I can do it by any means other than running it through bfi :(
07:36:35 <GregorR-L> ? ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?
07:36:35 <GregorR-L> ? ? [*] Kernel support for Brainfuck binaries ? ?
07:36:35 <GregorR-L> ? ? [ ] Kernel support for ELF binaries ? ?
07:36:39 <GregorR-L> ? ? [ ] Kernel support for a.out and ECOFF binaries ? ?
07:36:42 <GregorR-L> ? ? [ ] Kernel support for MISC binaries ? ?
07:39:39 <GregorR-L> I just found small.c on esoteric.sange.fi on the same day it was posted!
07:39:46 <GregorR-L> It's good to know that site is still kept up.
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09:08:18 <Keymakere> nice to see more brainfuck interpreters in other esoteric languages
09:11:14 <Keymakere> as well, good job with the manual but i think you should tell more clearly about stuff
09:11:22 <Keymakere> (and yeah i know it's not final version yet ;))
09:11:40 <Keymakere> like *every* thing there is in the language
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09:14:47 <Keymakere> anyways, to repeat, i'm really impressed of ORK :) although it's too esoteric for me :p
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11:44:08 <fizzie> If you just want to run an interpreter, you could do it with binfmt_misc. JIT-compilation of brainf*ck code to native, in the kernel, would rule, though. :p
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11:57:23 <pgimeno> ok, the esoteric-related to-do list is currently: 1) praise GregorR for ORK; 2) make some work in the EsoWiki; 3) make something with my cat program in Malbolge...
11:57:42 <pgimeno> KnX: is there such thing as a Fork Theorem?
11:59:32 <pgimeno> GregorR: what'd I say... I'm impressed about ORK
12:21:22 <pgimeno> calamari, good work! Who's to announce the esowiki to the mailing list? you or me?
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17:09:10 <pgimeno> so you did'nt get late to the bus
17:09:39 <pgimeno> or did it wait for you after all?
17:20:08 <Keymaker> since it's public transport it just goes by if you don't stop it.
17:20:23 <Keymaker> but i wanted to go with that bus and therefore had to go, so i could stop it on time
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18:58:39 <lament> this channel is so insanely busy these days
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19:00:41 <GregorR> Keymaker: There was a reason I called it a PARTIAL spec ;)
19:00:52 <GregorR> I'll only be here for a few minutes right now :-P
19:01:09 <pgimeno> I'm going to have some social life for a change
19:01:21 <GregorR> But ... but I thought #esoteric was your social life :'(
20:07:18 <GregorR> It's noon here, and yet you're probably all quite gone.;
20:08:39 <GregorR> Hey, you're in my timezone 8-D
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18:42:09 <Keymaker> been trying to get to computer the past 4 hours probably
18:42:39 <Keymaker> probably around a month or more ago
18:42:48 <Keymaker> i was going to finally get that brainfuck related domain
18:42:57 <Keymaker> with name nested-loops.org or nestedloops.org
18:43:57 <Keymaker> and to answer your question, i'm planning to start a small brainfuck site
18:44:05 <Keymaker> mostly dedicated for my own stuff
18:44:11 <Keymaker> and interesting bf related things
18:45:20 <GregorR> Are you trying to avoid obscenities in the domain name itself?
18:45:49 <Keymaker> i'm not sure if the place allows to use 'fuck' in the domain name
18:46:00 <Keymaker> as well, that might in the worst case attract wrong sort of traffic
18:46:24 <GregorR> And that is one strange, not-very-legal fetish.
18:46:25 <Keymaker> (at least from some bizarre necromancer site)
18:47:27 <Keymaker> i wonder if there actually is that kind of people (with brainfuck fetish).. i hope NOT
18:49:35 <Keymaker> anyone done any Cool Stuff (tm) today?
18:49:43 <Keymaker> like programs or languages? :)
18:50:23 <GregorR> How about www.plusplusplusplusplusplusplusplusstartlooprightplusplusplusplusplusplusplusplusplusleftminusendlooprightoutputleftplusplusplusplusplusstartlooprightplusplusplusplusplusplusleftminusendlooprightminusoutputplusplusplusplusplusplusplusoutputoutputplusplusplusoutputleftplusplusplusplusplusplusplusplusstartlooprightrightplusplusplusplusleftleftminusendlooprightrightoutputleftleftplusplusplusplusstartlooprightminusminusminusm
18:50:23 <GregorR> inusminusminusleftminusendlooprightoutputleftplusplusplusplusstartlooprightplusplusplusplusplusplusleftminusendlooprightoutputplusplusplusoutputminusminusminusminusminusminusoutputminusminusminusminusminusminusminusminusoutputrightplusoutput.com
18:50:41 <GregorR> That way, the URL is a brainfuck program itself 8-D
18:51:01 <GregorR> But you could make it say "Brainfuck" or something :-P
18:51:36 <Keymaker> but the name is the only problem
18:51:44 <Keymaker> it's amazing how i've planned it probably half year
18:51:54 <Keymaker> i gotta invent some good one now
18:52:14 <GregorR> Hmm, can a domain name start with a number?
18:52:42 <Keymaker> i've thought about including that 8 somewhere
18:52:56 <GregorR> You should buy x.com from paypal :-P
18:53:11 <GregorR> Merely because it doesn't even fit domain rules.
18:53:44 <Keymaker> something power-8 could be fun too
18:54:28 <puzzlet> hmm.. length of a web domain is limited
18:54:43 <GregorR> Yeah, mine wouldn't actually work ;)
18:55:09 <Keymaker> what is the english name for ','
18:55:14 <puzzlet> probably a program to write "BF" could fit?
18:55:51 <GregorR> I don't know that that would be cool ;)
18:57:24 <Keymaker> (well, wouldn't take that anyways)
18:57:25 <puzzlet> refreshes my memory of command.com
18:59:17 <GregorR> www.plusplusplusplusplusplusopenrightplusplusplusplusplusplusplusplusplusplusplusleftminuscloserightoutputplusplusplusplusoutput.com
18:59:23 <GregorR> And I think it's legal 8-D
18:59:54 <puzzlet> http://quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan-colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info/
19:06:58 <GregorR> I still like thepowerof8.*
19:17:17 <Keymaker> maybe for now on i will just give a number to everything instead of names
19:18:52 <GregorR> zero.* are certainly taken.
19:21:37 <Keymaker> i wait, maybe it comes to my mind from somewhere
19:31:38 <Keymaker> taking a .fi domain costs was it 100e more
19:32:24 <Keymaker> i don't have that kind of money
19:33:38 <GregorR> Besides, Finnish (is that .fi?) necromancer porn is still necromancer porn.
19:34:38 <Keymaker> :) probably wouldn't be very good choice..
19:35:20 <Keymaker> with <title>Your #1 brainfuck source in web!</title>
19:36:50 <Keymaker> spomc.* -- side product of minimal compiler
19:39:40 <GregorR> You could go with Brainfork and just never mention the Y operator :-P
19:50:49 <Keymaker> grhh.. i think i select either of these: bf-hackers or bf-hacks
19:51:21 <Keymaker> probably bf-hacks would be better imho
19:53:49 <Keymaker> ok.. bf-hacks.net or bf-hacks.org ?
19:54:36 <GregorR> Not that it's a non-profit.
19:56:05 <Keymaker> hmmm, there's some field for organization or company,
19:56:52 <Keymaker> should i fill there something?
19:59:29 <Keymaker> (it's not necessary but i mean just for fun..)
19:59:43 <Keymaker> quick, invent some bf organization!
20:02:47 <pgimeno> there's the ENSI (and hi all)
20:09:38 <Keymaker> i think that's not bad at all, that RBS
20:10:38 <GregorR> Pronounced in a STRONG british accent
20:12:22 <Keymaker> anyways, you're welcome to visit Royal Brainfuck Society's bf-hacks.org after about a week when it's up ;)
20:12:48 <pgimeno> I'll be pleased to be invited to the opening
20:13:41 <Keymaker> i'll tell about the grand openin' here
20:16:05 <Keymaker> i'll pay the bill tomorrow, too lazy to do that today
20:18:25 <Keymaker> well, i think i'll go to sleep.. must wake up 6:30.. zzZZz
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21:44:30 <pgimeno> is the ORK specification complete?
21:55:28 <GregorR> But that's no cure for boredom right now ;)
21:55:33 <GregorR> I prefer to do that on the train.
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15:29:17 <Keymaker> i paid the bf-hacks.org today (20 euros).. now it's just waiting till they get the domain up and running
15:29:49 <Keymaker> (although the site won't be anything ground breaking by its design)
15:30:35 <kipple> so, what are you planning to have there?
15:31:18 <pgimeno> your site will be up in time to get linked from my site
15:31:44 <pgimeno> I'm currently working in a thorough reorganization
15:31:52 <pgimeno> including new content and stuff
15:32:25 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/
15:32:27 <kipple> my webserver collapsed last week, so I don't have a site anymore... :(
15:33:06 <Keymaker> do you have the kipple programs? are they safe?
15:33:42 <pgimeno> I'm paying for a hosting so that's no concern to me atm
15:34:48 <kipple> I ran it on an old 180MHz machine under my bed...
15:35:15 <pgimeno> I don't recall to have seen a 180 MHz machine
15:35:29 <kipple> I underclocked it so it doesn't need a CPU fan
15:35:54 <kipple> to be more precise I think it runs at 187,5 MHz. Originally 233
15:36:27 <Keymaker> did it caught in fire the last week? :9
15:36:42 <kipple> don't know how much is recoverable
15:36:55 <kipple> haven't had the time to look into it
15:37:04 <pgimeno> any valuable data in there, or just the webserver?
15:37:40 <kipple> I used it to store a lot of movie files. Nothing important, but nice to have
15:38:15 <kipple> It had more Gigabytes of HD than MHz :)
15:38:23 <pgimeno> if you're lucky your disk crash can have been like mine, just a few unreadable sectors here and there
15:39:23 <kipple> yeah, I hope I can recover it
15:39:40 <pgimeno> btw, have you tried cpuburn on it?
15:40:11 <pgimeno> it just sucks CPU resources, exercising all circuits
15:40:43 <kipple> what's the purpose of that? to test the CPU?
15:40:48 <pgimeno> it's dangerous but if the chip supports the stress you can say it'll support all kinds of normal loads
15:41:40 <kipple> I don't think the CPU is the problem.
15:42:28 <pgimeno> I'm just amazed it can run without a fan
15:43:04 <kipple> It's a very old CPU (1997 or something, I think), and I installed a new large heatsink on it
15:43:06 <pgimeno> my machine is also underclocked; otherwise I had to avoid running emulators and cpu-consuming programs during summer, even if I have a big fan pointing to the case
15:43:42 <Keymaker> i see.. is there hot there in spain?
15:44:03 <pgimeno> not much, about 35C in the hottest days
15:44:09 <kipple> well, I live in Norway, so that is not so much of a problem... :)
15:44:31 <Keymaker> didn't know, or at least remember, that
15:44:44 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/dsc02325.jpg
15:45:18 <Keymaker> that kind of thing would be nice to have on desk
15:45:30 <Keymaker> and to be pointed at me instead of the computer :)
15:45:36 <pgimeno> the fan looks static because the flash freezed the image but it's running
15:45:55 <pgimeno> I need another one for myself
15:46:17 <kipple> so, where in the world are you, Keymaker?
15:46:55 <Keymaker> it's quite strange that there are some others from that country, here, as well
15:47:53 <fizzie> It's only +13.31'C outside, I'm not sure what you'd need a fan for.
15:48:38 <Keymaker> i prefer the winter temperatures (which were way too high this winter)
15:48:59 <Keymaker> well, at least gotta hope for rainy summer >:{}
15:49:57 <Keymaker> dry and cloudy could be something interesting as well
15:50:54 <pgimeno> a little poll: what encoding are you all using? to see if we can read each other's extended chars
15:50:55 <Keymaker> are the those.. what were those that slartibartfast (correct?) designed?
15:51:18 <Keymaker> or well i know there are but do you live near them?
15:53:44 <kipple> Yes, I live among them. (Bergen)
15:53:57 <Keymaker> must look nice, at least in pictures
15:54:12 <kipple> and my web server that collapsed was named slartibartfast :)
15:55:23 <Keymaker> do those car roads do allkinds of crazy turns, or are they located near the sea?
15:55:36 <Keymaker> in some pictures i've seen them
15:55:51 <kipple> but tunnels are also VERY common here
15:55:55 <Keymaker> there's better drive slowly :)
15:57:10 <Keymaker> i meant too bad HERE aren't MANY tunnels
15:57:10 <kipple> tunnels? there are loads of tunnels here
15:57:21 <Keymaker> i was just typing and didn't think
15:57:31 <kipple> well, they're quite boring to drive through actually
15:58:12 <kipple> the worlds longest tunnel is near here (24,5 km)
15:58:31 <Keymaker> is there any place the air can get in or out?
15:58:42 <kipple> and there is another one just before it, but that one is *only* 10 or 15 or something
15:58:56 <kipple> there are huge fans in the ceiling
15:59:14 <Keymaker> have to visit norway sometime..
16:00:45 <GregorR> Wow, quite the crowd right now./
16:01:05 <kipple> Keymaker: wikiepedia to the rescue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%E6rdal_Tunnel
16:03:19 <kipple> anyway, it has stopped raining here now, so I'll use the break to go and by some groceries. see you later
16:03:43 <GregorR> It just stopped raining here.
16:03:59 <kipple> and where is "here" for you?
16:05:42 <GregorR> I'm off too (I said I was here briefly), so, bye.
17:25:53 <Keymaker> fit all the stuff on one page (index.html)
17:26:03 <Keymaker> or the spread it on several pages
17:29:13 <fizzie> Re encoding, I'm using UTF-8 mostly, except ISO-8859-15 in irc (although this new irssi has some heuristics to intelligently guess and properly show incoming utf-8).
17:29:32 <fizzie> (A small two-hour lag with answering.)
17:32:57 <pgimeno> about the encoding... do you see it if I write 12C or Espaa or caf?
17:44:44 <pgimeno> take your time, I can wait ;)
17:49:26 <Keymaker> and even write 2/3 of them.. rdy, eh?
17:50:54 <fizzie> Yes, those work, although I don't think that character before C () is a correct "degree" symbol.
17:51:11 <pgimeno> no it's not but the correct one is not in a spanish keyboard :P
17:51:35 <pgimeno> I was lazy to launch UniCharMap
17:52:51 <fizzie> I can't type it with this keyboard, either.
17:53:21 <fizzie> Although I _can_ type a lot of non-latin1 characters. and probably do not work.
17:54:03 <fizzie> I used to have a working "altgr+l" lambda key, but now it creates this weird "l with /" ł character.
17:55:17 <fizzie> There's an upwards-arrow here too, ↑. Actually the keymap feels pretty random. I wonder if I still have my customized one somewhere.
17:55:44 <pgimeno> it switches to UTF-8 and I can't see these chars
17:57:15 <fizzie> Mmm. They really should adopt utf-8 as a common standard in irc.
17:57:50 <pgimeno> I thought it was, but there are a few widely-used stupid Windows clients still not supporting it
17:59:44 <pgimeno> I use xchat and had FreeNode configured for UTF-8 but I had to switch because I also chat with spanish Windozers
18:01:38 <fizzie> I used to use XiRCON when it was released, since I had a dual-boot box back then, but I think after version 1.0b4 the development just sorta-died. A pity, it seemed like a nice enough client.
18:22:07 <Keymaker> i hope i can come back today later
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20:20:53 <kipple> hadn't noticed that one
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20:56:35 <GregorR-L> Well, I think I'll go finish up my ORK spec.
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21:17:36 <GregorR-L> http://www.befunge.org/fyb/ork/README < slightly updated, but I've gtg :-P
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22:52:39 <KnX> could someone explain me why same-line wrapping is called lahey-space wrapping, i can't find doc about lahey-space except befunge-related ?
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23:02:46 <GregorR-L> To install 2L on this robot ... or not to install 2L on this robot ... that is the question.
23:06:01 <kipple> btw, in the compare example in the ORK spec, you say the output will be "greater". But it should be Equal, shouldn't it?
23:08:15 <GregorR-L> I don't know what YOU'RE thinking.
23:08:36 <kipple> sorry. my mistake. wasn't thinking esoterically enough I guess
23:33:51 <GregorR-L> Thinkin' about writing a program in ORK? :P
23:36:14 <kipple> That I've made myself, you mean? Yes.
23:37:09 <kipple> I'll get it up again. wikipedia some info
23:37:39 <kipple> "has some info " it should be
23:40:43 <GregorR-L> Have an interpreter downloadable somewhere?
23:40:51 <kipple> as I said, it went down
23:41:06 <kipple> I could upload the site somewhere else I guess
23:43:08 <kipple> I have a java interpreter pluss an online applet
23:44:42 <GregorR-L> I think I'll write a Kipple interpreter in ORK.
23:44:54 <kipple> that would be great! :)
23:48:59 <GregorR-L> And in 2L, which is infinitely more evil 8-D
23:50:27 <kipple> difficult handling multiple stacks in such a language I would think
23:52:49 <kipple> http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~runeberg/kipple/
23:53:04 <kipple> seems I have lost the index page, but I've got everything else
23:54:29 <kipple> I like the way the source code looks in 2L.
23:54:58 <kipple> A lot of repeating structures thar looks similar, but not quite
23:55:28 <GregorR-L> That Hello World could have definitely been more efficient, but I was sort of in a rut by the end :-P
23:55:50 <kipple> since when did efficiency matter? ;)
00:24:43 <kipple> I fired up my webserver again, and now it actually seems to work fine...
00:25:06 <kipple> maybe it was a one time glitch...
00:25:18 <kipple> or maybe it will go down in a moment....
00:58:52 <GregorR-L> I'll start working on that Kipple interpreter when I get home.
00:58:56 <kipple> bye. i'm off to bed myself
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03:16:12 <GregorR-L> Crapsicles ... Kipple doesn't need to be space-delimited?
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04:35:06 <Keymaker> well, there isn't said any size for them
04:39:51 <GregorR-L> Err, I meant that you can do stuff like:
04:42:35 <Keymaker> but not that much, just remember that stack names are one character (a..z or @)
04:43:43 <Keymaker> so if there is for example a<99b>c you can 'easily' detect where the input stuff (99) ends, because there comes alphabet (b)
04:47:33 <Keymaker> as well remember that a stack can be "connected" with two stuff like a>b<499
04:48:00 <GregorR-L> ORK is not a good language to do this in.
04:48:15 <GregorR-L> Which is not to suggest that it can't be done.
04:48:32 <Keymaker> kipple interpreter in brainfuck would be neat
04:49:01 <Keymaker> since i like the 8-bit environment
04:49:12 <Keymaker> it'd be hard to have 32bit cells in that
04:49:34 <Keymaker> to make interpreter for language using 32bit cells would be hard
04:50:48 <GregorR-L> Binary is 0 and 1, trinary is 0 1 and 2.
04:50:56 <GregorR-L> 0 is false, 2 is true, 1 is undetermined.
04:51:31 <GregorR-L> Or better yet, 1 is "Uuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh......"
04:53:00 <Keymaker> well, good luck with the interpreter
04:53:15 <Keymaker> stupid other-than-computer-time :)
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06:03:00 <GregorR-L> (ten minutes later, Gregor reappears :-P )
06:03:13 <GregorR-L> I'm busy failing to make a Kipple interpreter in ORK.
06:03:51 <calamari> I haven't been keeping track of what's new in here
06:04:37 <calamari> been trying to simplify a roguelike game to its essestials.. not an easy task
06:05:06 <GregorR-L> I've been vaguely considering making a Roguelike probabilistic programming language.
06:05:15 <calamari> GregorR-L: did you create a new language?
06:05:16 <GregorR-L> Merely because it would be so unbelievably stupid.
06:05:46 <calamari> oh thats right.. you did the corewars thing :)
06:06:08 <calamari> I knew you did something cool recently, I just couldn't remember what it was
06:07:40 <GregorR-L> Only one person has actually written a program to challenge mine in FYB.
06:08:26 <calamari> nope.. I was never good at corewars. I meant to play it, but ended up playing C-Robots instead (they were on the same shareware floppy)
06:12:27 <calamari> have you written a roguelike game before? Having trouble with dungeon generation. I need something VERY simple, but simple doesn't seem to be giving good results.
06:13:30 <calamari> I'm probably crazy tho.. the entire game will have to fit in 32k, and I have 16k of memory to work with :)
06:14:00 <GregorR-L> No, I haven't written a Roguelike - my consideration of creating a Roguelike programming language isn't quite the same as making a Roguelike game.
06:15:02 <calamari> are you thinking more of a defined dungeon where the creatures just fight each other to the death?
06:15:04 <GregorR-L> No actual generation of maps - the maps are the programs, so they would be human-made.
06:15:17 <GregorR-L> I don't know how to explain this bizarre idea properly X-D
06:16:39 <GregorR-L> I haven't quite figured that part out.
06:16:54 <calamari> well, it can't be the map, because that wouldn't grow
06:17:05 <calamari> the map would probably be the program
06:17:36 <calamari> rogue has staircases.. so you can have multiple levels (for loops, etc)
06:17:46 <GregorR-L> Yeah, I had already thought about that part.
06:18:01 <GregorR-L> Mainly I'd like to figure out memory before I implement.
06:18:15 <calamari> creatures being memory would be interesting
06:18:30 <calamari> because you can create or destroy them
06:18:43 <calamari> and do operations on them (attack)
06:19:06 <calamari> operators could be their stats
06:19:09 <GregorR-L> I was thinking that the "hero" would be the program pointer. It wouldn't be human controlled, it would wander randomly.
06:21:13 <GregorR-L> No, but that would make it more interesting 8-D
06:21:22 <calamari> you could have a sort of simple AI that decides which creature to attack
06:21:35 <GregorR-L> So it would be predictable, but difficult to predict.
06:21:45 <calamari> I'd image the maps would be more like mazes with intersections where a decision would need to be made
06:23:27 <calamari> I've been wanting to write a fractal programming language (Star Trek).. but can't figure out how it'd work.. can't be a superficial BF model tacked on :)
06:25:29 <calamari> the program instead would have to be a fractal.. but memory would also
06:25:39 <calamari> instead->itself .. bad typos tonight
06:36:51 * GregorR-L is trying to determine how that works...
06:41:01 <calamari> if you figure it out, let me know.. or better yet, write it :)
07:10:18 <GregorR-L> Yeah, I have no clue how that would work :-P
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13:53:19 * Keymaker reads the log first before writes anything :)
13:54:05 <Keymaker> interesting ideas there (again)
13:54:33 <Keymaker> i have had kinda same idea, although not including any violent fighting..
13:54:56 <Keymaker> like some maze "game" language featuring program pointer travelling in some maze
13:55:44 <KnX> befunge+tron , everywhere you go, you make a wall , the IP reverse when she meet a wall
13:57:01 <KnX> ( in fact, it'd do hard to loop with such a language :/ )
14:01:33 <KnX> the loop should rewrite herself while doing her "usefull" job
14:03:02 <Keymaker> but would be pretty hard if every single character/place/whatever would be replaced with a wall
14:03:46 <Keymaker> it'd be pretty hard to fit some replace(x,y,with_this_character) into one character
14:04:32 <Keymaker> if there would be for example 20 instructions, it could work the way that the character would be char-20
14:04:50 <Keymaker> then mod 10 to get x coordinate
14:05:19 <Keymaker> the instruction should be checked first
14:06:37 <Keymaker> ..and finally the remaining stuff (after 10 or whatever) would be the y
14:07:10 <Keymaker> if the area is small this kind of thing would work
14:07:46 <Keymaker> and if the instruction would for example just need to move the pointer right then its x and y stuff would be ignored
14:09:05 <Keymaker> 15x15 area (225) and 30 instructions could work :)
14:09:35 <Keymaker> or maybe 15x16 (240) and 15 instructions
14:10:15 <Keymaker> but making the programs do any useful stuff,
14:11:06 <Keymaker> the instructions would just always need to build the maze back as it were, and the wouldn't get a change to execute any other instructions
14:12:53 <Keymaker> maybe having 15x15 area (225) (that includes x and y data), and then two instructions that can have 15 values
14:13:24 <Keymaker> that way could be defined what place to replace with what, and what to execute
14:15:16 <Keymaker> as well, could be used, that those x and y values could be used with the current instruction, for example it could print out 16*x+y as character
14:15:44 <Keymaker> as well, could be that if what-to-replace is 0, nothing would be replaced
14:16:09 <Keymaker> and all the "walls" could be NOPs
14:16:38 <Keymaker> that when program pointer goes on it would make stuff automatically NOP while it goes
14:17:19 <Keymaker> with this kind of language highly random looking code could be also made, since the instructions could be anything between 0 and 255
14:17:26 <Keymaker> maybe i'll think more about this..
14:19:20 <kipple> it would be a bit difficult to write instructions 0-31 in the source code, though
14:22:43 <Keymaker> but what about using hex editor with width 16? :)
14:23:58 <kipple> yes, that would work :)
14:24:52 <kipple> hmm. how about making a language which ONLY uses control chars? :)
14:25:18 <kipple> that would make some really ugly source code
14:25:27 <Keymaker> and the instruction depending from which direction the program pointer comes from?
14:25:53 <Keymaker> probably space could be the traditional NOP there, like in befunge
14:26:26 <Keymaker> haha, two insane program language ideas on this channel the past hour :)
14:28:03 <Keymaker> if i counted right it would give 16 instructions to use (if having four directions and four instructions for them)
14:28:24 <kipple> there are like 30 control chars
14:29:36 <kipple> or are they perhaps called something else than "control" chars?
14:29:50 <Keymaker> i was talking about a funge style langauge
14:30:05 <Keymaker> using space as blank and < > v ^ as direction characters
14:30:48 <kipple> that would be cool too
14:31:44 <Keymaker> hmm.. would it be possible with only one character to control the direction?
14:32:31 <Keymaker> it would cause executing unwanted instructions
14:33:01 <Keymaker> but what about two instructions for moving?
14:33:40 <kipple> what do you mean, for space?
14:34:19 <Keymaker> if the program is in 2d space the instructions can't be this way:
14:35:20 <Keymaker> this kind of thing would allow 8 instructions to be executed
14:35:31 <kipple> wouldn't that be much like wierd (or whatever it's called)
14:37:20 <Keymaker> iirc in wierd the instruction was defined by the angles the lines of '*' crossed each other
14:37:40 <Keymaker> well, this would be kinda like that
14:39:34 <kipple> it's usually not the most important thing in an esolang... :)
14:40:38 <Keymaker> hmm. i need food (read: noodles)
15:06:32 <KnX> for information , i decided to separate my befunge core from the funge-space, making a funge-space-librairy which could be usefull for many langages maybe ...
16:29:53 <GregorR> Of course it's possible to have only one character to control direction flow.
16:33:05 <Keymaker> yes, but iirc the direction can be change in 2l if the first (?) memory cell is zero or non-zero
16:33:31 <GregorR> It's if the current cell - and you can force a direction, like so:
16:34:06 <GregorR> In one case, it will turn right. In the other case, it will turn left-left-left
16:34:32 <Keymaker> but in 2l there is one command to execute the instruction, right?
16:34:39 <Keymaker> and other to control the pointer
16:34:53 <Keymaker> language where those would the same
16:34:57 <GregorR> Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
16:35:43 <Keymaker> like where program pointer would execute different instructions depending where it comes to the direction-changer
16:36:04 <Keymaker> and as far as i can see there is no way to make that kind of language working without it executing un-wanted instructions
16:36:13 <GregorR> Where as in its x-y location?
16:37:03 <GregorR> Keymaker like where program pointer would execute different instructions depending where it comes to the direction-changer < do you mean the direction it comes from or the location of the next instruction?
16:37:20 <Keymaker> the direction where it comes from
16:37:26 <Keymaker> if it for example comes from left
16:37:46 <GregorR> Yeah, I can't see how that could work, since you would be forced into a direction that wouldn't necessarily do what you want.
16:38:42 <Keymaker> or more like forced to execute unwanted instruction while trying to get the correct direction
16:39:59 <Keymaker> wait.. i try to think what i was about to say
16:41:26 <GregorR> I think you would need at least 2.
16:44:27 <Keymaker> i think it still doesn't work that way
16:44:42 <Keymaker> like if the direction-changers execute instruction
16:44:56 <Keymaker> you still get unwanted instructions even if you have two of them
16:45:16 <GregorR> You could have a pure-direction-changer and an op-direction-changer.
16:49:51 <Keymaker> anyways; GregorR: did you read the log?
16:49:58 <Keymaker> about that maze language ideas?
16:50:44 <GregorR> Briefly, but I didn't quite get it :-P
16:51:05 <GregorR> Unless you're talking about me yesterday ;)
16:51:20 <GregorR> But that was just an allusion.
16:51:47 <Keymaker> probably just writing what came to my mind :)
16:52:06 <GregorR> Well, I've got to go to school.
17:04:46 <pgimeno> {kipple the human}: could you please tell me if {kipple the language} is imperative and 1D?
17:05:29 <kipple> what's the definition of imperative? I think it is, but not quite sure
17:06:00 * kipple is looking up in wikipedia
17:06:02 <pgimeno> I'm not sure I could make up a definition
17:06:18 <kipple> well, it is definately not functional
17:06:45 <kipple> arg. wikipedia is so incredibly slow
17:07:35 * pgimeno files the Kipple bookmark into his imperative 1-D deterministic languages folder
17:07:47 <kipple> the stacks are 1 dimentional, but since there are several stacks one could perhaps argue that it is 2D?
17:08:09 <pgimeno> no, I mean, befunge is a 2D language but (say) pascal, basic, etc. are 1d
17:08:25 <Keymaker> (in case that isn't answered yet :))
17:08:28 <kipple> are there many langs that are not deterministic? I only know of Java2k I think
17:08:42 <pgimeno> not many... I can recall of three right now
17:08:48 <kipple> ah, yes you mean dimentions in the source code of course
17:09:19 <pgimeno> Java2K, Thue and Whenever are the non-deterministic ones I remember right now
17:09:51 <pgimeno> well, there's Sartre which I'm not sure about
17:12:19 <pgimeno> regarding the discussion about making a 2D language where direction changes are expressed by just one symbol... ever played KBlackBox?
17:13:21 <pgimeno> there's a 2D "black box" (grid) and you throw "rays"
17:13:38 <pgimeno> there are four marbles within the board
17:14:25 <pgimeno> depending on which position the ray reappears, it gives information on where the marbles are
17:14:50 <pgimeno> the aim is to guess where the marbles are using the least possible number of rays
17:16:28 <kipple> sounds like a KDE game. am I right :)
17:16:55 <Keymaker> i guessed something like that as well
17:17:05 <kipple> linux game makers are not too creative when it comes to naming games....
17:17:51 <pgimeno> the relevant part is this:
17:18:35 <pgimeno> if you throw a ray from the left side of the box, it bounces in a straight angle when the marble is at the northeast of the cell
17:19:47 <pgimeno> anyway it would be a way to make a program pointer bounce in any arbitrary direction, if the positions to its relative left or right can be examined
17:21:15 <pgimeno> the + is the direction changer
17:21:35 <pgimeno> the straight angle turn is due to the presence of the direction changer
17:22:18 <pgimeno> (that's how a ray bounces in KBlackBox too)
17:23:09 <pgimeno> in KBlackBox, this one makes the ray to return the way it came:
17:24:15 <pgimeno> that idea could be used with a 2D esoteric language
17:24:58 <Keymaker> how about executing instructions?
17:25:11 <Keymaker> should some another character be used to that?
17:25:21 <pgimeno> that's beyond the scpoe of this document ;)
17:25:51 <Keymaker> like the changing of the instruction could happen
17:26:08 <Keymaker> depending how the program pointer goes
17:26:13 <Keymaker> and instruction would be executed
17:26:25 <Keymaker> when the pointer goes back where it came
17:26:56 <Keymaker> this kind of language would take extremely much space but at least beat GregorR's 2L ;)
17:27:32 <pgimeno> hum, a problem with going back in the same way is that the whole way would be undone
17:28:14 <pgimeno> ugh, that idea looks sooo ugly :)
17:28:30 <pgimeno> ... the pointer "pushes" the + sign at the time of bouncing
17:28:54 <pgimeno> so you actually have a self-modifiable program, la Malbolge
17:33:17 <pgimeno> some day I will take a look at the Alpaca system
17:33:57 <Keymaker> haven't heard of any Alpace engine
17:34:50 <pgimeno> http://catseye.webhop.net/
17:36:17 <Keymaker> couldn't get there for some reason
17:37:11 <pgimeno> it's a redirector to http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/
17:38:51 <Keymaker> http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/preview.png
17:39:05 <Keymaker> i'm trying to make a really simple design for my brainfuck site
17:40:20 <pgimeno> not counting the PREVIEW sign they are :)
17:45:24 <pgimeno> the simplicity of your design can't beat the simplicity of my lack of design ;)
17:46:04 <pgimeno> I'm not very aesthetically-oriented, I just care about contents (in case you haven't noted)
17:47:29 <Keymaker> yeah, i care most about the content as well
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17:49:43 <GregorR-L> Keymaker: You're living in a dream world ;)
17:50:18 <GregorR-L> (/me was just remembering about the 1-command language)
17:52:26 <GregorR-L> So, does probabalistic count as nondeterministic?
17:52:55 * GregorR-L is seriously considering making a programming language based on NetHack :-P
17:54:54 <GregorR-L> You build a little array of rooms...
17:55:13 <GregorR-L> And the doors could be one-way, or only-if-condition, etc, to make loops.
17:55:40 <GregorR-L> Unfortunately, I haven't quite figured out some of the stranger attributes :-P
17:56:21 <GregorR-L> Mainly, do I want the data pointer to just be in a stack or tape...
17:56:29 <GregorR-L> Or do I want the data pointer to be your pet >:)
17:57:28 <GregorR-L> AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
17:57:47 <GregorR-L> I guess that means nothing to a non-north-american.
17:58:29 <GregorR-L> Exactly why I don't want that shortform ;)
17:59:54 <GregorR-L> I'll call it ... The Rogue Language
18:00:05 <GregorR-L> Read with the proper emphasis, that's pretty cool :-P
18:08:53 <GregorR-L> We're studying turing machines in the class I ought to be paying attention to right now :-P
18:09:00 <GregorR-L> And I can't keep my mind off of brainfuck
18:09:26 <GregorR-L> 2) A TM can be described by: 1) A graph. 2) A brainfuck program
18:10:33 <Keymaker> interesting stuff you have there
18:10:43 <Keymaker> is it just a normal university?
18:11:08 <Keymaker> i hope i can find a good place to get learnin' that stuff the next year
18:11:23 <Keymaker> or well actually after ~1.5 years
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20:11:50 <Keymaker> managed to get back for a while
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20:19:44 * pgimeno is right now working in his own esoteric language
20:21:24 <pgimeno> it'll be *called* Bitxtreme
20:21:36 <pgimeno> it's actually a company's name but who cares
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21:06:01 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/prog/esoteric/Bitxtreme.php
21:31:44 <pgimeno> oops, gtg, see you tomorrow
21:39:07 <fizzie> It seems to already have the 0 and 1 bits, what more do you need?
21:41:46 <pgimeno> well, I'm also working in some subtle I/O details... you know, I don't want this spec to be imprecise or incomplete like that of HQ9+ which lacks a specification of the initial accumulator's value
21:42:54 <pgimeno> I think that's worth being mentioned as well
21:50:55 <pgimeno> updated; now I'm really off, bye
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00:08:05 <GregorR> I find it hard to believe that Bitxtreme is turing complete ;)
00:08:39 <kipple> I find it hard to even understand how it is supposed to work.... :)
00:12:34 <kipple> so, how did the ORK Kipple interpreter go? any progress?
00:14:26 <GregorR> It reads it in, but has issues parsing.
00:14:50 <GregorR> Powerful and unbelievably, mind-blowingly stupid.
00:15:50 <GregorR> Besides ... hypothetically, any turing complete language COULD interpret kipple (with much pain), and ORK is turing complete...
00:16:22 <kipple> yes, I didn't ask if it was *possible*. only if it was doable
00:16:50 <kipple> that is, not extremely hard... :)
00:17:50 <kipple> so, do you intperpret the source directly, or tokenize?
00:18:28 <GregorR> I'm getting chunks with meanings, then walking through and interpreting the ones that are command chunks.
00:34:20 <GregorR> Based on bitxtreme, I present unitxtreme:
00:34:27 <GregorR> It works just the same but the bits are unary.
00:34:42 <GregorR> So you can only have one command, and it can only have one value.
00:34:49 <GregorR> There is only one register and only one memory location.
00:35:10 <GregorR> The command is 0, and it sets the value of the current memory location to 0.
00:43:01 <kipple> the ork compiler doesn't handle Windows EOLs
00:43:15 <kipple> not much of a problem, but I thought you should know
00:43:41 <GregorR> Am I expected to care if it works on Windows?
00:43:59 <kipple> as I said, no big deal
00:44:09 <GregorR> Hmm, I thought cin was set to some sort of translation mode normally >_>
00:44:19 <GregorR> Mayhaps I'll fix that sometime.
01:15:11 <kipple> is ORK case sensitive?
01:17:04 <GregorR> It wouldn't be unnecessarily grammatically correct if it wasn't 8-D
01:18:49 <GregorR> Right now the compiler lets you get away with some things that it ought not, but it does insist upon proper capitalization.
01:38:21 <kipple> when I pass an object as an arg to a function, how do I reference the objects variables?
01:50:55 <GregorR> I never put that in the spec, did I?
01:51:20 <GregorR> If it was a foo that had a bar which was a number:
01:51:53 <GregorR> Actually, I think that might be screwed up ...
01:53:06 <GregorR> OK, I'm going to fix that and post a new version some time tonight 8-D
01:53:10 <GregorR> But that's how it should work.
01:53:59 <kipple> gotta go to bed anyways.
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04:51:27 <Keymaker> you should probably change '(FIXME: work on the description)' to something, though
04:51:36 <Keymaker> i don't yet see very well how it works
04:51:40 <Keymaker> but i wanna get coding!!!!!!!!!!
04:51:49 <Keymaker> 1 bit memory size is really cool
04:52:01 <Keymaker> i've planned making a brainfuck variation with that
04:52:08 <Keymaker> although it's done couple of times already
04:52:19 <Keymaker> but i want to make programs for that kind of memory cell range
04:52:43 <Keymaker> maybe you could make some simple sample program there, for example how to print 'Hi' ?
04:56:49 <Keymaker> and how to do loops? i need more info!
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05:04:29 <GregorR> pgimeno: Am I confused, or is there a maximum of two instructions, and hence it's impossible to do anything useful.
05:04:35 <GregorR> (This being because the program pointer is a bit)
05:14:01 <Keymaker> probably there is array of those bits
05:14:16 <Keymaker> at least i can see no other way this being turing-complete
05:15:23 <GregorR> I get the feeling that it's more of ajoke than pgimeno has let on ;)
05:15:32 <GregorR> Oh no! (/me just read your bit about beating 2L ;) )
05:15:36 <Keymaker> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
05:16:16 <Keymaker> but if you read on we found one solution how to use just one instruction
05:16:26 <Keymaker> pgimeno got if from some game :)
05:16:51 <Keymaker> with that would be possible/necessary to make self modificating programs
05:17:54 * GregorR just saw what you're saying.
05:18:13 <Keymaker> 16:13:21 <pgimeno> regarding the discussion about making a 2D language where direction changes are expressed by just one symbol... ever played KBlackBox?
05:18:13 <GregorR> A 90-degree turn would do one thing, a 180-degree turn another, a 270-degree turn yet another.
05:19:25 <GregorR> And the turns would be pushed back when the program pointer hit them, a la Sokoban.
05:20:02 <Keymaker> it really interesting what kind of languages are possible
05:20:12 <GregorR> I need a moment to process whether that would work or not...
05:20:22 <GregorR> Ah, here's a problem: how do you do program logic?
05:20:55 <Keymaker> blame pgimeno, not my idea! *flees away*
05:21:06 <GregorR> Now this is stuck in my head.
05:21:50 <Keymaker> then we succeeded to trap someone's mind to do the actual work and let us bask in the actual glory. :)
05:22:28 <GregorR> When it's released as "Gregor Richards presents: 1L! (Some concepts may have been partially attributed to some abstract work by Keymaker and pgimeno)" You'll think differently ;)
05:23:52 <GregorR> I'm still not positive if it would work, BUT
05:24:10 <GregorR> 1) Straight-on = if. If the cell is non-zero, do NOT turn, but go through
05:24:29 <GregorR> 2) Right turn = op. Same ops as in 2L, same overloading
05:24:38 <GregorR> 3) Left turn = opless turn
05:24:47 <GregorR> If you stack two +s, they can't be pushed
05:25:16 <Keymaker> is there language called Sokoban as well?
05:26:35 <GregorR> It would be quite difficult to handle the if-not case, because you would be back where you came from ... pushing blocks would help, but loops would still be difficult...
05:27:07 <Keymaker> i think this language is too bizarre for me
05:27:12 <GregorR> HEY! DING AGAIN! Gregor's on a roll!
05:27:22 <Keymaker> at least i wouldn't have the nervers :)
05:27:29 <calamari> GregorR: see the wierd language
05:27:31 <GregorR> Straight-on divides the program pointer - it will continue going in the same direction, but will be offset.
05:27:39 <GregorR> calamari: I don't count that ;)
05:27:45 <GregorR> calamari: Since an angle is an op.
05:27:50 <GregorR> calamari: So it actually has several.
05:28:23 <GregorR> It's an interesting and esoteric language, yes ...
05:28:27 <GregorR> But still has more ops than the winz0r
05:28:34 <calamari> if you're counting turns, then that's an angle too :)
05:28:59 <GregorR> Damn, you're totally right.
05:29:06 <GregorR> + placed differently would be a different op.
05:29:21 <calamari> but... who cares? have fun with it :)
05:29:24 <GregorR> I'm OK overloading by direction (obviously) ...
05:29:37 <GregorR> It's not my original idea :-P
05:29:45 <GregorR> So I could drop it at any time!
05:30:12 <Keymaker> better to do that, it's too evil
05:30:33 <GregorR> Pff, I can implement this from the 2L code base in a matter of minutes. Might as well.
05:30:57 <calamari> how about frequency analysis of the "wave" to determine opcodes? hehe
05:31:27 <Keymaker> what the programs should look like?
05:31:30 <GregorR> I was thinking that it would be nice to have a BF-ish language, but, the operations would do insanely complex algorithms, making it incredibly difficult to do simple addition, etc ;)
05:31:55 <calamari> keymaker: probably big sine waves :)
05:32:11 <Keymaker> but what they would look like in the source code?
05:32:33 <calamari> oh.. let the programmer choose
05:32:42 <calamari> whitespace vs whatever they like
05:39:19 <Keymaker> well, see you much later.. 8+ hours
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05:44:25 <GregorR> OMFG, this language is stupid
05:54:04 <calamari> go write some Malbolge and you'll feel better
05:57:56 <GregorR> 1L is seriously more stupid than Malbolge :-P
05:57:59 <calamari> that question about what character to use must have been kicking around in my subconscious
05:58:46 <calamari> the interpreter/compiler could figure out the language as it went along
05:58:57 <calamari> based on context (if there is enough context)
05:59:12 <GregorR> Some languages are quite difficult to tell apart.
05:59:24 * GregorR is unsure what you're talking about btw ;)
05:59:44 <calamari> for example if we're going with C, for example
06:00:34 <calamari> actually, neither.. since it doesn't fit either pattern
06:01:39 <GregorR> I actually meant that I don't know what you're referring to about that question about what character to use ... I'll go read the log ;)
06:01:40 <calamari> ASM would be better for this, since a lot of old ASM's used 3 character mnemonics
06:01:47 <GregorR> (/me doesn't even remember yesterday)
06:02:11 <calamari> GregorR: oh.. we were talking for a minute about figuring out the opcode based on frequency analysis
06:02:28 <calamari> and someone asked what character would be used for the drawing
06:02:33 <GregorR> OHHHHHHHH, right right right
06:04:09 <calamari> one language I've always wanted to write is one in which it isn't possible to have a syntax error or runtime error because of the way the code was written (for example mismatched brackets in BF)
06:04:42 <calamari> therefore any file would represent a valid program
06:04:54 <GregorR> You can't have syntax errors in many 2D languages, since no characters need to match.
06:06:17 <calamari> although, maybe its impossible as well, becauseif I made it so that the program couldn't crash it woulkdn't be turing complete, right?
06:07:05 <GregorR> I don't see why not........?
06:07:53 <GregorR> Turing complete just means it can solve any mathematical problem. So long as there's some means of quitting at the end, it doesn't need to "crash" per se.
06:08:08 <GregorR> It could just have a quit operator.
06:09:46 <GregorR> Perfect example: AFAIK, 2L is turing complete (it has every BF operator), however, it has not syntax errors and cannot crash, only exit gracefully.
06:10:42 <GregorR> That's not how loops work in 2L - it's two dimensional, so a loop is just a series of ifs that have been drawn in a circle.
06:10:59 <GregorR> I should have said "It has a means to do every BF operator," since it only has two operators.
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09:57:02 <pgimeno> <calamari> one language I've always wanted to write is one in which it isn't possible to have a syntax error or runtime error because of the way the code was written (for example mismatched brackets in BF)
09:57:59 <pgimeno> http://ling.ucsd.edu/~barker/Iota/
09:58:17 <pgimeno> it uses the Functional paradigm
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16:03:03 <GregorR> That was a truly exciting conversation ;)
16:03:50 <Keymaker> sorry.. i tried to open some topic
16:04:11 <Keymaker> btw, is there any other word for 'invent'? i'm tired using that one
16:04:54 <GregorR> Lesse what thesaurus.com says 8-D
16:05:27 <GregorR> Or the quaint "make" of course.
16:05:47 <GregorR> Synonyms: ad-lib, author, bear, coin, come upon, compose, conceive, contrive, cook up, design, devise, discover, dream up, envision, execute, fake, fashion, find, forge, form, formulate, frame, hatch, imagine, improve, improvise, inaugurate, initiate, jam, knock off, make, make up, mint, originate, plan, produce, project, shuck, think up, toss off, turn out, wing it
16:06:05 <GregorR> About 60% of those are terribly synonyms :-P
16:07:41 <Keymaker> but there are some worth of using
16:08:07 <Keymaker> now i just hope i can remember those when i knock off something next time
16:08:36 <GregorR> I'm not sure that one works out of a few contexts ...
16:08:50 <GregorR> Since it also means kill in a few contexts *shrugs*
16:10:00 <lindi-> GregorR: 'excogitate' seems to be missing from the list :)
16:10:01 <GregorR> Synonyms: author, compose, conceive, contrive, cook up, design, devise, dream up, envision, fashion, forge, form, formulate, initiate, make, make up, originate, plan, produce, think up, turn out
16:10:14 <GregorR> lindi-: That was just what www.thesaurus.com said :-P
16:10:23 <GregorR> There's a list of basically non-contextual synonyms.
16:10:42 <lindi-> GregorR: use libre dictionary at http://wordnet.princeton.edu/
16:11:21 <GregorR> Oh wow, that's infinitely better.
16:11:55 <lindi-> GregorR: yes, and you can include it on your own page or sell the results if you want
16:12:31 <GregorR> Keymaker: $25 for this synonym list.
16:12:54 <GregorR> Just kidding of course, though I don't yet know how to fenagle this page right.
16:13:31 <GregorR> GTG to school, see you all later.
16:16:59 <lindi-> they seem to have changed page layout a bit do you like http://wordnet.princeton.edu/contact more than http://wordnet.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/faqview.cgi ?
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17:57:38 <Keymaker> pgimeno!!!! tell more about bitxtreme
18:05:30 <Keymaker> i finally got my first gas mask
18:05:34 <Keymaker> that i bought from internet :)
18:06:02 <pgimeno> good in case you suffer an anthrax attack
18:06:18 <Keymaker> maybe i should wear it everywhere
18:06:38 <Keymaker> it's actually because of one club that is gasmask-only
18:07:06 <Keymaker> seriously, i have no need for it
18:07:20 <Keymaker> but i like their (gasmaks) look
18:07:40 <Keymaker> so i decided to start collecting those
18:08:33 <pgimeno> well, I just have a dust mask
18:11:08 <Keymaker> http://194.251.244.158/auctionimages/0/d6/517d898f68d5f8435c9a3d8122343-orig.jpg
18:11:38 <Keymaker> (note that i'm not into any military stuff, just gas masks)
18:11:51 <Keymaker> (that i don't even concern military)
18:13:30 <pgimeno> yeah, I guess there's a 50% chance that someone wearing it would have been confused by an alien by the time it was made
18:15:05 <Keymaker> mmh. my fingers smell that gas mask rubber.. better go wash them :)
18:16:07 <Keymaker> is bitxtreme really turing complete or is it just some joke language?
18:16:21 <pgimeno> you can judge better after the update
18:19:00 <pgimeno> there it is (still not finished)
18:21:38 <KnX> pgimeno : is it possible to get it too ?
18:22:05 <Keymaker> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/prog/esoteric/Bitxtreme.php
18:24:18 <Keymaker> "To avoid confusion with other kinds of files the standard source file extension is TXT (for Bitxtreme), which is rarely used."
18:24:43 <pgimeno> that's actually just an advance of my next (huge!) site update... I needed to make room for my Malbolge findings and for GregorR's files and a reorganization was needed before it was too late. Reorganizing means also adding new content, and so it goes and goes...
18:32:33 <Keymaker> the programs are probably written with characters '0' and '1'?
18:32:47 <Keymaker> or do i have to use hex editor?
18:33:20 <KnX> hexedit i think
18:33:41 <Keymaker> writing the source is gettin' annoying on that case
18:33:47 <kipple> just write a tool to translate
18:34:07 <kipple> write it in BF or something:)
18:34:15 <Keymaker> i was just typing that as well :)
18:34:27 <kipple> great minds think alike....
18:35:23 <kipple> " then PC is increased by two, modulo 2"
18:35:36 <kipple> this does not make much sense to me. is it a joke?
18:37:48 <KnX> 2 modulo 2 = 0 :)
18:38:04 <KnX> i think it's a joke
18:38:09 <kipple> but then again the whole lang seems to be a joke :)
18:38:48 <kipple> as the PC is only one bit, there are only four possible programs (which are the four samples listed)
18:38:52 <Keymaker> (i haven't left yet for a minute)
18:39:13 <Keymaker> but probably with those everything can be done
18:39:20 <Keymaker> and the input and output was some bizarre
18:42:09 <kipple> " there is one single instruction: subtract and branch if negative"
18:42:19 <kipple> haha, the registers can never be negative :D
18:42:48 <Keymaker> but notice that is talking about OISC
18:43:06 <Keymaker> it's talking about this as well
18:46:32 <KnX> " If the result is negative (the bits are in two's complement representation)"
18:47:02 <KnX> don't understand it very well , i'm not native english speaker
18:47:15 <Keymaker> i don't understand it either, i just guessed :)
18:47:59 <KnX> does it mean that is A = 0 and P = 1 , then the result is "temporarily" negative ?
18:47:59 <Keymaker> if i recognize the word 'complement' i guess it would change something like '01001' to '10110'
18:48:48 <kipple> it's not meant to make sense.
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19:54:43 <pgimeno> it is indeed a joke... I thought it was obvious enough after the last changes
19:55:52 <pgimeno> doh, I have to leave again, later
21:49:38 <pgimeno> btw, a two's complement 1-bit number can only represent 0 and -1
22:53:00 <kipple> Good joke. I didn't notice it at a first glance. Only when I sat down and tried to understand it did I get it... :)
22:54:12 <pgimeno> thanks! I'm adding the last bits; the interpreter is online but I'm fixing the links which are broken.
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22:56:38 <kipple> " It has the memory limited to 2 bits for space reasons"
22:56:48 <kipple> reminds me of mod_bf :)
22:57:48 <kipple> have you seen the apache module mod_bf?
22:58:07 <kipple> it's a BF mod for Apache
22:58:35 <kipple> it has an array size of 100 because more is a "waste of memory" :D
22:59:12 <kipple> I thought of it when I read the BitXtreme spec
22:59:26 <kipple> http://modbf.sourceforge.net/
22:59:41 <kipple> has been dead for more than four years...
23:00:49 <pgimeno> I'm afraid the 1.0 project was abandoned
23:01:22 <kipple> I once thought of doing a web-scripting lang with bf
23:01:34 <kipple> like PHP with inline HTML, but only BF as code :D
23:03:21 <GregorR-L> GAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! I hate either ORK or Kipple (haven't decided which yet :-P )
23:04:18 <GregorR-L> I'm just having a lot of problems writing this in ORK :-P
23:04:27 <GregorR-L> The code keeps multiplying and multiplying >_>
23:05:49 <pgimeno> damn, my server doesn't allow download of .py files
23:06:10 <kipple> just rename it .py.txt or something
23:06:35 <pgimeno> not even that I guess, GregorR-L... it returns an Internal Server Error
23:06:58 <kipple> it probably has a python interpreter...
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23:11:18 <kipple> does the file start with a line like #!/bin/python or something
23:11:38 <kipple> try renaming it to HTML
23:12:07 <pgimeno> as .txt it works but of course that would be confused with a Bitxtreme source file
23:12:21 <kipple> I could host the file for you if nothing else works
23:12:29 <kipple> that is really bizarre
23:13:02 <pgimeno> that will save bandwidth too ;)
23:13:04 <kipple> so bitxtreme.txt works but not bitxtreme.py.txt?
23:13:47 <kipple> haha, I love the fact that examples.zip is 562 bytes
23:14:55 * kipple thinks pgimeno was nuts in the first place (evidence: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/prog/esoteric/Bitxtreme.php )
23:15:15 <pgimeno> all that's left to do is zipping it
23:26:07 <kipple> though the source files a 4 times the size they need to be. curse these whole bytes requirements :)
23:26:36 <kipple> I propose a new archive format for bitxtreme programs to save precious bandwith:
23:26:55 <kipple> bit 0: Header. This bit is always set to 1 to identify the file as a bitxtreme archive
23:27:03 <kipple> bit 1: Meta-info: place your meta information here.
23:27:11 <kipple> bit 2 - (2n+2): each program stored sequentially, each starting immediately after the previous
23:27:21 <kipple> the last bits of the file is padded with zeroes to make a whole number of bytes.
23:27:55 <pgimeno> actually, that format was chosen in order to make it possible to write a quine
23:30:05 <pgimeno> "then PC is increased by two, modulo 2" - I thought that made clear enough that either I'm kidding or I'm a complete nerd (or both)
23:30:46 <pgimeno> anyway, thanks everybody for your feedback which has helped improving the spec
23:32:57 <kipple> I thought it was a typo at first
23:33:19 <kipple> until I noticed that the PC is 1-bit
23:35:37 <kipple> so Gregor, any chance of an updated ORK soon?
23:38:18 <kipple> and now object variables can be referenced as expected?
23:39:04 <pgimeno> uhm, I think I've missed some discussion about ORK
23:39:17 <GregorR-L> There was an issue with variable reference.
23:39:27 <GregorR-L> You couldn't reference variables of objects passed as parameters.
23:40:04 <pgimeno> do you have an interpreter already, or just the compiler?
23:40:52 <GregorR-L> I don't think I want to try at an interpreter :-P
23:41:41 <pgimeno> btw GregorR-L: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/prog/esoteric/ <- not still complete but now it's ready for expansion
23:43:49 <GregorR-L> BTW, my last name is "Richards" so the ownership form is " Richards' "
23:44:01 <GregorR-L> Because English makes a whooooooooole lot of sense.
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00:01:36 <kipple> greg: is there a not equal comparator in the mathematician?
00:01:57 <kipple> or do I have to test for both greater and less?
00:03:11 <GregorR-L> And no, because that would be needless 8-D
00:03:40 <GregorR-L> How's this design: http://www.befunge.org/fyb/GregorR.html
00:03:41 <kipple> btw, there is a bug in the loop example in the spex
00:04:05 <kipple> If Fibonacci says it's greater then I am to loop.
00:04:15 <kipple> If Fibonacci says it's greater then I am to loop the number.
00:04:40 <GregorR-L> Loop loops that very same function with the same parameters etc.
00:04:53 <kipple> sure? didn't work for me
00:05:23 <GregorR-L> Hmm ....... just a sec, I've got to go for a few minutes, then I'll be back and we'll discuss.
00:06:27 <kipple> I think there is some css propery you can use to make the background code be unselectable....
00:19:57 <GregorR-L> So does the pointer to the image show right for both of you?
00:20:35 <GregorR-L> Are either of you NOT using Netscape, Mozilla or Firefox?
00:21:06 <GregorR-L> OK, so anyway, could you give me the code you were having looping issues with?
00:21:22 <kipple> it works fine. I just had to give it the parameter
00:22:18 <GregorR-L> I don't see how that could work, given what the compiler does ....
00:22:25 <GregorR-L> Could you send me the code anyway? :-P
00:22:47 <kipple> http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/beer.ork
00:23:37 <kipple> has someone else made it as well?
00:24:08 <pgimeno> GregorR-L: FYI, in Konqueror it does not work well
00:24:27 <GregorR-L> If Bob the Big Brain says it's greater then I am to sing the song. < this ought to be able to say "I am to loop"
00:24:56 <GregorR-L> That way, it will loop rather than recurse.
00:24:58 <kipple> that's a bit unclear in the spec
00:25:13 <GregorR-L> pgimeno: I have Konq here, so I'll look into it.
00:25:24 <kipple> it looks like loop is a function
00:27:36 <GregorR-L> Congrats kipple, you are the first person to write a fully-functional program in ORK other than myself 8-D
00:34:53 <kipple> can you do string concatenation?
00:36:07 <kipple> are there any examples using it?
00:36:56 <GregorR-L> D'OH ... I forgot to upload my newer spec too X-D
00:38:14 <kipple> sorry. was looking at a local copy :P
00:42:17 <kipple> what's the difference between There is [a variable called x] and I have [a variable called x] ?
00:53:34 <kipple> I have updated beer.ork so it doesn't say "1 bottles" anymore.
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01:00:42 <GregorR-L> None, except that one may sound more PC.
01:00:50 <GregorR-L> IE: You don't usually "have" a mathematician, since that is a person.
01:03:43 <kipple> anyway, it was a bit painful to write in ORK :) so many words for so little ...
01:10:04 <kipple> writing a kipple interpreter must be cruel....
01:13:32 <kipple> so how do you manage to do stacks?
01:14:11 <GregorR-L> I don't think I introduced number arrays in the spec ...
01:14:20 <GregorR-L> But their design happens to be particularly condusive to stacks.
01:14:42 <GregorR-L> BTW, writing a complete spec is for the weak.
01:15:06 <kipple> source code is always a good spec :)
01:15:21 <GregorR-L> My BF interpreter uses number arrays.
01:17:21 <kipple> hmm. is it possible to do something like this:
01:17:27 <kipple> There is such a thing as a stack item.
01:17:28 <kipple> A stack item has an item below which is a stack item.
01:17:28 <kipple> A stack item has an item on top which is a stack item.
01:18:34 <GregorR-L> That would get you caught in an instanciation loop (if you will)
01:19:55 <GregorR-L> Gah, foiled by konqueror again >_O
01:20:45 <kipple> hmm. it looks worse in Opera now...
01:21:36 <kipple> what's the problem (are we thinking of the same?) ?
01:22:11 <GregorR-L> Mine is just inter-page links not working.
01:23:07 <GregorR-L> They're not on the uploaded version yet ;)
01:23:27 <kipple> the "This is Gregor" text is now aligned with the bottom of the image, and a bit hard to read with the ******* below it
01:25:14 <GregorR-L> Oh, it's actually on top of the code?
01:25:28 <GregorR-L> I did reallign it, I was hoping it wouldn't move around much :-P
01:28:05 <GregorR-L> http://www.befunge.org/fyb/GregorR.html < is the image stil malligned, and also, do the links work for you?
01:28:13 <GregorR-L> Just those top few links, to "2L" and "FYB"
01:28:38 <kipple> how is the image supposed to be aligned?
01:28:58 <GregorR-L> It should look sort of like it's sitting above the row of *********s
01:29:07 <GregorR-L> And the label should be at the same level
01:29:40 <GregorR-L> KDE and MacOSX users don't need links *shrugs*
01:30:39 <kipple> above as in on the line above or as overlapping?
01:31:31 <kipple> the rest of the text fits nice in firefox, but not i opera
01:32:34 <kipple> sorry. that should be yes
01:32:44 <kipple> now the text is screwed up in firefox as well
01:33:15 <kipple> IE is ever worse, but who cares ;)
01:33:32 <kipple> the "< This is Gregor" as well?
01:35:50 <kipple> screenshot: http://rune.krokodille.com/gregor.jpg
01:36:32 <GregorR-L> I was afraid it would be UP a line.
01:36:47 <kipple> you fixed it while I took the shot
01:37:14 <GregorR-L> OK, wait, the current version looks right in FF?
01:37:27 <kipple> not any more :) one line too low
01:37:45 <GregorR-L> There hasn't been a change since 5 minutes ago!
01:37:59 <kipple> it changes when I reload
01:38:26 <kipple> it switches between two versions rather randomly
01:40:04 <kipple> have you tried reloading many times in a row?
01:41:43 * kipple is downloading FF 1.03
01:43:43 <kipple> must be a windows thing
01:44:03 <kipple> i suspect it is a rounding error...
01:44:38 <kipple> a non-deterministic web design. that's esoteric :)
01:45:01 <GregorR-L> No, that's platform compatability at its best ;)
01:46:25 <kipple> hey! it works in Opera now!!
01:47:08 <GregorR-L> I separated them to hopefully make only one fail :-P
01:48:18 <kipple> what if you add an empty line below the image text. with only a for instance
01:48:42 <GregorR-L> Just a sec, I just thought of a possibility.
01:49:28 <GregorR-L> I just made it fail the same in my FFox :-P
01:51:28 <GregorR-L> Last try before I've gtg, refresh once more.
01:52:06 <kipple> fine in FF, not in Opera :(
01:52:22 <kipple> text is one line too high up in opera
01:53:12 <GregorR-L> OK, then I think I at least know what the browser consistancy issue is.
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02:22:51 <GregorR> If my latest iteration doesn't work, I will eat my hat.
02:22:59 <GregorR> Any of them, take your pick: http://www.codu.org/hats.php
02:23:10 <GregorR> Gotta get my laptop up and upload it first though ;)
02:32:56 <GregorR> I'm betting kipple is asleep X-D
02:33:50 <GregorR> http://www.befunge.org/fyb/GregorR.html
02:33:54 <GregorR> So you're awake at 3:30AM?
02:35:03 <kipple> damn. your hat is safe ;)
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05:18:24 <Keymaker> i saw wonderful dream where i realized how Thue works.
05:18:34 <Keymaker> guess does it work the way i saw..?
05:19:05 <Keymaker> interesting stuff seems to have happened
05:19:17 <Keymaker> cool pages both gregor and pgimeno
05:19:43 <Keymaker> as well, cool to see kipple's 99bob
05:19:56 <Keymaker> and, too bad bitxtreme was a joke
05:57:40 <GregorR> I can'te believe I finally got the derned thing working in all browsers :)
05:58:51 <Keymaker> yeah, web design can be annoying
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06:16:11 <Keymaker> you hear me day? you're stupdi!
06:16:38 <Keymaker> come on.. it wouldn't harm anyone to just skip one day :)
06:20:56 <GregorR-L> There would be no 99-bottles-of-beer in ORK!
06:21:43 * GregorR-L is still trying to decide whether to publish 1L
06:22:15 <Keymaker> yes. but if it would be skipped NOW.. :)
06:22:21 <Keymaker> i would avoid annoying shoocl day
06:23:07 <GregorR-L> Ah yes, the miracle of time zones.
06:23:25 <Keymaker> they are the most esoteric ones
06:23:39 <GregorR-L> Why is it that everybody on this channel is from Western Europe except me X-D
06:23:41 <Keymaker> where would be different timezones
06:23:56 <Keymaker> hehe we europeans are sramtsest
06:24:15 <GregorR-L> If me not so dumb, me take offense!
06:24:35 <Keymaker> somehow the instructions would be executed at different times depending on their place
06:24:55 <GregorR-L> And actually ofset by hours, so it could take as many as 24 hours to run a small program.
06:25:42 <Keymaker> not to mention making the interpreter do some stuff on background, like tirelesly computing pi to slow the work of computer..
06:30:00 <Keymaker> at least the breakfsat (that i usually skip) is good today: pizza from yesterday and some coca
06:30:38 <GregorR-L> Hmm ... somewhere between here and befunge.org, my HTML is being weirded.
06:32:29 <Keymaker> anyways; interesting job for you: write ORK interpreter in ORK :)
06:32:40 <Keymaker> should be possible since it's turing complete ;)
06:33:09 <GregorR-L> Also, more painful then I can possibly describe.
06:38:47 <Keymaker> i should finisf my bf in bf interpreter
06:38:47 <Keymaker> i'm typing with one hand and continuously making stupid mistakes
06:38:47 <Keymaker> (other hand is busy holding the pizza)
06:41:31 <GregorR-L> http://www.befunge.org/fyb/GregorR.html < pretty much complete now
06:42:41 <GregorR-L> Should I make my head bounce around in the background?
06:42:57 <GregorR-L> Ooooooooooooooooooh, I've got a better idea!
06:44:01 <Keymaker> the 2l hello world example can't be found
06:48:14 <Keymaker> seems that this day is, along with all the other annoying, cleaning day x{
06:48:37 <Keymaker> maybe i should clean before going to school.. hmm.
06:52:22 <GregorR-L> http://www.befunge.org/fyb/GregorR.html
06:54:29 <GregorR-L> Oh, I was thinking 2L at first, then later thought BF X-D
06:55:31 <puzzlet> http://puzzlet.org/tmp/braille.htm
06:55:40 <puzzlet> Conway's Game of Life in Braille patterns
06:57:11 <puzzlet> dot characters for the blind people
06:57:33 <GregorR-L> They're usually on walls engraved into metal, so blind people can read them with their hands.
06:57:49 <GregorR-L> Actually, embossed in metal I believe would be the correct term.
06:58:22 <Keymaker> too bad i can't get the script to work
06:58:31 <Keymaker> i'm currently in win and with FF
06:58:41 <GregorR-L> I'm using FF and it works fine for me.
06:58:55 <Keymaker> maybe i have some strange settings or something
06:59:12 <puzzlet> maybe you need to install some font?
06:59:23 <GregorR-L> Mayhaps it's a font that's (surprise!) not available on Windoze.
06:59:27 <puzzlet> http://home.att.net/~jameskass/code2000_page.htm
07:00:33 <Keymaker> hmm i'n not big fan of downloading things
07:00:45 <Keymaker> i'll try in linux in opera today later
07:05:13 <Keymaker> do you know this lang gregor? :
07:05:13 <Keymaker> http://www.veling.nl/anne/lang/hello/
07:05:32 <Keymaker> i should write new version of my bf hello world interpreter :)
07:06:43 <puzzlet> reminds me of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HQ9_Plus
07:29:16 <GregorR-L> You need to at least be able to increment the accumulator.
07:33:27 <Keymaker> see you later if i make it through this day :)
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10:28:08 <pgimeno> haha, "It was my professional opinion that the programming world needed an esoteric object oriented programming language (other than Java of course)"
10:38:22 * pgimeno ponders whether to write an ORK interpreter in either JavaScript, PHP or Python
10:38:38 <lament> normally i'd say python
10:38:44 <lament> but go ahead and do it in javascript :)
10:47:25 <pgimeno> I'd better concentrate in my current projects rather than queuing another one
10:48:17 <KnX> fork(life);
10:48:33 <pgimeno> child processes tend to be too rebel
10:49:03 <pgimeno> This is a known bug that will be fixed in Universe 1.1
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15:29:03 <Keymaker> i'm alive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111
15:30:39 <KnX> good thing
15:34:57 <kipple> because you're addicted?
15:35:34 <kipple> repeat after me: My name is Keymaker, and I am an esoholic
15:35:53 <Keymaker> must.. get.. daily.. esoteric.. programs..
15:36:30 <Keymaker> (as well, i partly meant the question as philosophical joke :))
15:59:31 <puzzlet> i don't know -- i just made it up
16:00:10 <Keymaker> there seems to be some sfunge.com
16:06:51 <puzzlet> it just came out of my head when i saw esoholic thing on the irc client
16:07:13 <puzzlet> anyway, hi, i'm from Korea
16:07:40 <Keymaker> that seems to be the most exotic location
16:07:46 <Keymaker> where this channel is accessed
16:09:09 <puzzlet> here, esoteric language fans are very rare
16:10:37 <Keymaker> well, i haven't met any others than people in internet, so maybe they aren't very popular anywhere
16:11:01 <Keymaker> (or maybe there could be some i haven't met in internet, but doesn't interest me :p)
16:11:12 <fizzie> I've met at least two in real-life too.
16:11:33 <Keymaker> in what kind of circumstances?
16:13:08 <KnX> at the 1st world esolang meeting
16:13:08 <fizzie> Going to same school/university, mostly.
16:13:13 <KnX> ( they were three )
16:15:51 <puzzlet> there was an world esolang meeting?
16:16:27 <KnX> no but could be fun
16:16:51 <KnX> but very hard to do when you have about 3 fan for a country
16:17:18 <Keymaker> but think about the world.. there are at least 20!
16:18:41 <KnX> i'd love a program when you enter a list of people + adress , and calculates ( using internet ) , the least cost place of meeting
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16:20:11 <puzzlet> what would you do when the program gives places like Bombay?
16:20:41 <Keymakere> anyways, pretty good idea for a program
16:32:15 <GregorR> lament: When you finish an ORK interpreter, I will give you a round of applause. Just me, individually. I'm not sure if that counts as a round... But I will anyway.
16:34:46 <GregorR> OK, we'll get a round of 2.
16:36:09 <fizzie> 20! is already 2432902008176640000.
16:36:35 <GregorR> ...........................................................?
16:37:04 <fizzie> It's only been 20 minutes!
16:37:28 <fizzie> You people with your ten-second attention spans, sheesh. (Eh... was sorta-away.)
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16:40:23 <Kmkr> grr this connection today..
16:41:11 <GregorR> Don't you have "Keymaker" registered?
16:41:26 <Kmkr> dunno what that is
16:41:45 <Kmkr> do i write that?
16:41:47 <fizzie> Not all network use these fancy services. :p
16:42:11 <fizzie> I personally come from ircnet, which doesn't run any.
16:42:54 <GregorR> Well, I was just suggesting this for Keymaker so [s]he could reclaim his/her name.
16:43:32 <Kmkr> i try that sometime
16:43:38 <Kmkr> probably too hard for me
16:43:43 <Kmkr> i can't use it probably
16:43:55 <Kmkr> in case there is lots of stuff to adjust etc.
16:44:03 -!- Kmkr has changed nick to Keymaker.
16:49:27 <Keymaker> the rewritten hello world interpreter is now ready
16:49:46 <Keymaker> this time i used checking the 'h' from binary
16:50:37 <Keymaker> (mainly because i was too lazy to make it a few inner loops to check if the data is 104. i'll do that new version sometime later.)
16:51:51 <Keymaker> ,[[->>[>]+<[-<]<]>>[<+>-]>[<<+>>-]>[<<<+>>>-]>[<<<<<+>>>>>-]>[<<<<<+>>>>>-]>[<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>-]>[<<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>>-]>[<<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>>-]<<<<<<<<[<[-]>[-]]<[-[-[+++++++[>+++++++++<-]>.<++++[>+++++++<-]>+.+++++++..+++.<+++++++++[>---------<-]>++.<+++++[>+++++++++++<-]>.<+++[>++++++++<-]>.+++.------.--------.[-]<++++++++++.[-]]]],]
16:52:06 <Keymaker> unless i didn't accidentally delete any character
16:52:25 <Keymaker> as well, the "Hello World" (with new-line) is far from perfect
16:52:53 <Keymaker> but i find making program to output strings in bf extremely annoying
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18:06:37 <GregorR-L> Or not to pay attention in class...
18:06:48 <GregorR-L> For is it nobler that I should pretend to be interested,
18:06:57 <GregorR-L> when the teacher is unknowingly talking about Brainfuck,
18:07:15 <GregorR-L> We're discussing Turing completeness :-P
18:07:42 <Keymaker> seems really interesting subject
18:07:48 <GregorR-L> And the Universal Register Machine.
18:10:23 <Keymaker> i'll be back soon, i go to shop to by groce.. errh chocolate cookies :)
18:10:37 <kipple> btw, Gregor, have you looked at HomeSpring?
18:10:58 <kipple> it's another lang that is insanely verbose and high level
18:11:21 <kipple> though in a very different way than ORK
18:11:57 <kipple> Universe of marshy force. Field sense
18:11:57 <kipple> shallows the hatchery saying Hello,. World!.
18:11:57 <kipple> Hydro. Power spring sometimes; snowmelt
18:11:57 <kipple> powers snowmelt always.
18:12:50 <kipple> http://www.rpi.edu/~bindej/hs.html
18:13:16 <kipple> the spec is a reather funny read :)
18:20:06 <GregorR-L> "In Homespring, the null program is not quine."
18:20:11 <GregorR-L> As the output to a null program X-D
18:21:23 <kipple> "... This allows you to avoid worrying about program style and focus on what programming is really about, the reproductive behavior of salmon" :D
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19:16:43 <GregorR-L> A 2D programming language where you draw a stack, then physically move data above it and drop it in :-P
19:16:59 <GregorR-L> So you have to navigate your program pointer above the stack, then do a "drop" operation
19:17:17 <GregorR-L> Want to tell me where/how/when/what/why to upload my page?
19:17:46 <pgimeno> I'll do for you, just tell me where to get it from.
19:18:57 <kipple> what's wrong with where it is now?
19:18:59 <pgimeno> Sorry, that's what I can offer...
19:19:31 <pgimeno> kipple: see www.cats-eye.com
19:20:15 <GregorR-L> On one hand, I have no guaranteed uptime, etc.
19:20:25 <GregorR-L> On the other hand, I have no FTP or SFTP.
19:21:10 <pgimeno> or see http://cats-eye.mb.ca
19:21:23 <kipple> did you mean : http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/
19:21:53 <pgimeno> my point is: after some time, domains are abandoned... there are some cases in which the content is also lost
19:22:05 <pgimeno> (like Ben Olmstead's Malbolge pages)
19:22:20 <pgimeno> fortunately they are in the Wayback Machine but how long?
19:22:23 <kipple> and a big problem for us esoholics...
19:22:51 <pgimeno> I'm Pedro Gimeno and I'm esoholic
19:22:59 <kipple> which is why Wikipedia is so nice (as long as people don't delete )
19:23:20 <pgimeno> Wikipedia is not the place for keeping the esolangs, IMO
19:23:41 <kipple> agreed. but I haven't seen a good alternative
19:23:54 <pgimeno> now calamari has set up an esowiki
19:23:58 <GregorR-L> The alternative is to always host in several places.
19:24:13 <kipple> graue has also set up a wiki
19:24:39 <kipple> me neither, but he was here some weeks ago and talked about it
19:24:52 <kipple> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page
19:24:56 <kipple> where is the other wiki
19:25:30 <kipple> the problem with these wiki's is that thay may disappear at any time (which is unlikely with wikipedia)
19:25:31 <pgimeno> http://esowiki.kidsquid.com
19:26:08 <kipple> that one is much better
19:26:19 <pgimeno> but then we can't abuse it just for that reason either
19:27:12 <kipple> ideally we should have some mirroring system of esolang pages. especially specifications
19:27:52 <pgimeno> I talked to calamari on the subject, he says he plans on keeping the domain for long
19:27:59 <pgimeno> that'd be an excellent idea
19:28:17 <GregorR-L> pgimeno: Do you want to have a copy of all the code, etc, as well?
19:28:20 <kipple> yes, but we can't really know taht...
19:28:45 <pgimeno> GregorR-L: yes, I'd like to
19:28:46 <kipple> I also plan to keep my domain for life, but who can really tell...
19:29:40 <pgimeno> my domain is from a company, it can be moved but never deleted
19:30:22 <kipple> and what if the company goes under? or changes it's name?
19:30:50 <kipple> we should make our own Way Back Machine to archive esoteric pages....
19:30:51 <pgimeno> yeah, that may happen; in that case the links can become obsolete but the web will keep being maintained
19:31:00 <pgimeno> I keep a copy of everything I upload
19:31:25 <fizzie> I am not planning to get rid of befunge.org ever, but obviously I can't know what'll happen.
19:31:50 <pgimeno> fizzie, ok... will it always be your machine?
19:32:31 <pgimeno> home PCs are subject to HD crashes, for example
19:32:58 <pgimeno> and who cares about backups today anyway?
19:33:04 <kipple> my server did last week, but it seems to have recovered perfectly....
19:33:47 <kipple> but the big problem isn't crashes and backups. it's people loosing interest, and discontinuing their web site
19:34:33 <pgimeno> yeah, interest in esolangs tends to happen especially among young people
19:35:06 <GregorR-L> Who then spend their entire life trying to deny it ;)
19:35:23 <kipple> it does? I have no idea of the ages of people involved in esolags (except that I know several go to school currently)
19:35:24 <fizzie> I'll probably do raid-1 mirroring on the next box, but anyway. I guess if I ever get tired of hosting befunge.org (or keeping a web server at home), I'll try to consider some alternative arrangements.
19:36:21 <pgimeno> well, in some cases (e.g. Olmstead's) they are hosted in the univ or school and disappear when they leave
19:36:41 <pgimeno> that's just a guess on my side, kipple
19:37:12 <pgimeno> fizzie, that's good to know
19:37:26 <GregorR-L> http://www.befunge.org/fyb/GregorR.zip
19:38:39 <GregorR-L> fizzie: BTW, befunge.org seems to be weirding my line breaks for some reason.
19:38:50 <fizzie> The physical location of this server is likely to change quite much. (I'm probably moving few blocks further that road) in August, and there's an upper limit of 5/6 years (of which I've used 2) for these student apartments anyway.)
19:39:07 <fizzie> There's a spurious ) on the above line.
19:39:36 <pgimeno> so it will be intermittent for some time
19:39:43 <pgimeno> intermittently online, I mean
19:39:58 <fizzie> Well, yes. Downtimes shouldn't be longer than few hours, though.
19:40:06 <fizzie> I mean, I need my IRC.
19:40:28 <pgimeno> I'm fizzie and I'm an IRCoholic
19:41:09 <GregorR-L> pgimeno: Do you have a domain or subdomain for that site, btw?
19:41:30 <pgimeno> GregorR-L: no, sorry, that's the problem I mentioned about the long URL
19:41:47 <pgimeno> all I can do is set up a redirector when I have one
19:42:07 <GregorR-L> I own that domain name, but the hosting is lame >_>
19:42:34 <GregorR-L> Very small amount of space, low bandwidth, intermittent issues.
19:42:56 <pgimeno> uhm, yeah, sounds a bit lame
19:43:23 <GregorR-L> But anyway, that's the web host, not the domain host.
19:43:29 <GregorR-L> So if you want a redirect, I can set it up.
19:44:00 <pgimeno> my problem with redirection is that I have to do it myself
19:44:32 <pgimeno> I don't have/know software for that except Apache but installing Apache sounds like too much overhead
19:45:03 <pgimeno> see e.g. http://www.formauri.com/personal/pgimeno/ <- that's a redirector I have but it can only cope with www.formauri.com
19:45:28 <pgimeno> what do you mean whether my URL changes?
19:45:33 <GregorR-L> I can set up *.codu.org to forward wherever you want.
19:45:54 <fizzie> Between ~17.7. - 16.8. me and befunge.org will both be out of this place I'm living in now, because half of the apartment buildings here are being leased/something to this "IAAF World Championships in Athletics 2005" event. I've arranged a temporary location for the box, though, and hope I'll get to move to the next semi-permanent (at-least-a-year) place at the beginning of August.
19:46:57 <pgimeno> fizzie: ok, in any case I think you'll agree that it sounds a bit unstable for a permanent esolang page...
19:47:53 <pgimeno> GregorR-L: back to the subdomain... you'll probably want to set up gregorr.codu.org or what you want
19:47:56 <fizzie> Well, yes. I don't have any cheap high-quality hosting available, though, otherwise I'd point gehennom.org there.
19:48:20 <fizzie> Heh, mixing up my domains already.
19:48:55 <pgimeno> there are some free hostings around but they're full of advertisements
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19:49:41 <pgimeno> hm, I'll discuss the subdomain later
19:50:16 <pgimeno> there's funpic.org for example, unlimited space and php + mysql
19:51:31 <pgimeno> but personally I hate pages full of ads
19:51:34 <fizzie> Mm-hmm. I've sometimes considered buying some quality hosting space. A local-ish provider (nebula.fi) has this (1GB of space, php+stuff, 25GB/month traffic recommendation) service that'd be 15eur/month, but since I don't have any content to host, I probably won't do that until I have a Real Job or something.
19:52:16 <pgimeno> oh, yeah, that's a problem :)
19:52:42 <fizzie> I have a local outgoing traffic limit of 14GB/month here, too, but esoteric language sites aren't exactly generating huge amounts of traffic. At least until someone slashdots them. :p
19:53:25 <fizzie> Oh, whoops, actually it's 14GB/week, not /month.
19:54:40 <fizzie> (And my web-serving IP has sent out 508498033 bytes during the last 7 days, so I'm not exactly very close to the limit yet.)
19:56:04 <pgimeno> I'm paying for this hosting, but I'm afraid of using MySQL (e.g. wiki or stuff) because if I move to another ISP the database won't be moved
19:56:31 <pgimeno> well, I can back it up and stuff but I don't like that idea much
19:57:42 <fizzie> Do they let you take an SQL dump of the db? That's relatively portable.
19:59:00 <pgimeno> I think so, problem is if it crashes or for some reason I can't take a chance of backing it up before the content is lost/deleted
20:01:14 <fizzie> Mmm-hmm. (I'm really waiting for postgresql 8 to get debianized, it features an online hot-backup thing. I have a database table of 9.5 million rows that can't be replaced. I periodically burn a DVD of it, but it's always such a major operation.)
20:02:04 <pgimeno> hum, sounds good, I wasn't aware of latest pgsql advances
20:03:30 <pgimeno> anyway, manual handling of the contents is the only way I plan to handle what I host, no wiki or stuff (that's why I asked GregorR for the files to post)
20:03:55 <pgimeno> oh damn, he uses absolute URLs instead of relative links
20:11:31 <fizzie> Heh, another planned service break affecting befunge.org at "16.5.2005 klo 17.00-18.30". FUNET has a borken router, it seems.
20:12:08 <pgimeno> what is FUNET? I've used many times ftp.funet.fi but don't know what it is
20:13:48 <fizzie> Finnish University [something-or-other] NETwork. Part of NORDUNET.
20:14:06 <fizzie> "Finnish University and Research Network", apparently.
20:14:23 <fizzie> I'm not sure where the R has gone.
20:14:39 <fizzie> Maybe they didn't like the sound of "FurNet".
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20:16:05 <pgimeno> yeah, I recognized you at first :)
20:17:00 <pgimeno> wow, an ESMTP salute, cool
20:17:46 <Keymaker> btw, where you have that big database fizzie?
20:18:15 <fizzie> Er... I'd rather not say. It's a bit stupid. More than a bit, actually.
20:18:33 <fizzie> #esoteric/2003-01.log:[2003-01-05 15:47:17] < fizzie> EHLO fizzie
20:18:33 <fizzie> #esoteric/2003-01.log:[2003-01-05 16:25:29] < fizzie> I was kind of waiting for the EHLO answer, whether he supports 8BITMIME and so on.
20:18:40 <fizzie> I've done the esmpt greeting here earlier.
20:19:28 <pgimeno> is that the content of your database? irc logs? ;)
20:19:57 <fizzie> No, no, I only have ~half a gig of those.
20:20:05 <fizzie> And they're stored as flat-files, not in a db.
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20:20:34 <Keymaker> GregorR: nice idea about that 2D language where you actually need to collect stuff from the stack
20:21:19 <fizzie> 580M of irclogs in non-bzip2-tarballed directories.
20:22:59 <fizzie> Oh well, the "database" is in http://darkhive.gehennom.org/ (I wouldn't normally mention the URL, but since it's only readable for Finnish-speaking people...)
20:24:56 <fizzie> Possibly. I've been writing new statistics graphs for the stats/ thing lately.
20:25:59 <fizzie> Admittedly a catastrophic database failure of _that_ material might be just a good thing.
20:27:49 <Keymaker> ah, finally i found that one track from my harddrive..
20:28:01 <Keymaker> i should convert more of my cds to mp3
20:28:17 <Keymaker> (and to note, i don't share a bit.)
20:28:51 <kipple> I recently ripped my CD collection. glad to be finished :)
20:29:25 <Keymaker> i have a big bunch of german trance :p
20:29:43 <Keymaker> (the only music they sell so cheaply ;))
20:30:35 <kipple> heh. not much of that in my shelf :)
20:31:28 <kipple> Pink Floyd, Pixies, R.E.M., Mars Volta, Radiohead, PJ Harvey etc.....
20:32:09 <Keymaker> i see. (although don't know much about their music)
20:32:21 <kipple> gotta spend some time away from the computer now. Later.
20:40:35 <pgimeno> fizzie: excuse me but the link you gave sounds to me basically like this one: http://pikachize.eye-of-newt.com/pika.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.formauri.es%2F
20:48:54 <fizzie> Yes, well... ours is a rather silly little language.
20:49:50 <fizzie> Oh, I just assume it sounds silly to non-speakers.
20:50:38 <fizzie> I mean, "entgegengegangen" sounds silly to me, but I'm sure it sounds reasonable and sensible for any possible *.de people here.
20:50:40 <Keymaker> it is silly for speakers as well :p
20:52:06 <Keymaker> i got an idea that maybe esolangs need somekind of creature as well
20:52:15 <Keymaker> like there is that tux penguin
20:52:38 <Keymaker> what about something esoteric animal?
20:54:44 <fizzie> Hm. I'm not sure what would be the most esoteric animal.
20:56:04 <pgimeno> well, the pgimeno is a rather esoteric animal
20:58:00 <Keymaker> that platypus seems fun and cute
20:58:04 <fizzie> There's a platypus on the cover of my "Object-Oriented Programming" book.
20:58:43 <fizzie> I think its author (Timothy Budd) has a habit of adding one to each of his books.
20:59:38 <Keymaker> hmm. i could attempt drawing it tomorrow.
21:01:07 <fizzie> The platypus's name is Phyl.
21:02:14 <Keymaker> anyways, imho it might be fun to have some animal as esolang mascot
21:02:27 <fizzie> In this one he uses it to demonstrate an exception where a child class overrides behaviour it inherits. It's a mammal, yet it lays eggs.
21:04:01 <fizzie> I don't like the book too much, but I guess that's not Phyl's fault.
21:08:42 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Freedom!").
21:09:18 <pgimeno> I need to leave now too, see you tomorrow
21:09:47 <pgimeno> oh, for GregorR: http://www.formauri.es/personal/GregorR/
21:10:09 <pgimeno> some details have still to be pinned down but it's there already
21:37:13 <lament> Taaus: http://helios.et.put.poznan.pl/%7Edzieciol/fx/Adam_Fulara-Goldberg_no_1.avi
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23:48:55 <Taaus> lament: Oh. My. God... That's amazing!
23:49:20 <lament> looks way harder than piano
23:50:39 <Taaus> Hehe... Well... Learn to play it on the guitar! :)
23:51:21 <lament> i don't have a guitar like that :)
23:52:17 <Taaus> Just tape two guitars together. ;)
23:52:53 <lament> i can't play that on piano anyway :)
23:53:16 <Taaus> Oop. I gotta go. Thanks for the link... I'll have to look at that movie a dozen times.
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01:03:26 <GregorR> kipple: I forgot to ask - do you mind if I stick your 99-bottles-of-beer in ORK under the ORK examples?
01:03:48 <kipple> of course not. go ahead :)
01:04:45 <GregorR> BTW, I've been formulating plans to make such things as LLLs possible.
01:04:52 <GregorR> I think I'll have a construct like:
01:05:17 <GregorR> What I mean is any object that needs a pointer to another object.
01:05:39 <GregorR> Anyway, constructs like this: A linear linked list can have a next which is a linear linked list.
01:05:40 <kipple> ah yes. that would be nice :)
01:05:50 <GregorR> Then you could set it like: My next is {blah}.
01:05:58 <GregorR> Or: I have a next. (to just make a new one)
01:36:45 <kipple> and then perhaps, you could do: Will is to write my next's next's next's next's next's value :)
01:45:02 <GregorR> Though if any of those were uninstanciated, you would not be very happy ;)
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03:03:17 <calamari> GregorR: unless your program is the universe.. :)
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03:56:06 <GregorR> That video defies all reason.
03:58:15 <GregorR> I just don't even get what he's doing ....
03:58:23 <GregorR> Is he hitting the strings with enough force to cause a vibration?
03:58:33 <GregorR> You'd think that would cause two (possibly dissonant) notes...
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06:02:35 <lament> GregorR-L: since pick-ups are only on one end of the string
06:08:56 <puzzlet> eh.. we have "Babel Fish Research Group" in Korea
06:09:16 <puzzlet> what we do is to research Babel Fish's behaviours
06:09:25 <puzzlet> such as http://www.puzzlet.org/puzzlet/BabelFish~Lama
06:09:54 <lament> oh wait, that's dopefish
06:10:16 <GregorR-L> lament: OH, that's right, it's electric.
06:10:23 <GregorR-L> For some reason that didn't occur to me.
06:10:35 <lament> GregorR-L: yes, and you can play any electric guitar like this.
06:10:42 <GregorR-L> Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
06:10:50 <lament> you can play acoustic ones like that too, it'd just be very soft
06:11:46 <lament> i'm not a guitarist, but i can play the guitar a bit
07:18:22 <puzzlet> hm, my best is http://www.puzzlet.org/puzzlet/BabelFish~%EB%AA%A8%EC%A7%81
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08:31:50 <pgimeno> what's that page about, puzzlet? I don't get it (and I don't understand Korean)
08:32:42 <puzzlet> some phrases are iteratively fed to Babel Fish
08:33:07 <puzzlet> and we archive interesting results
08:33:49 <pgimeno> what's the gnuplot/latex section supposed to graph?
08:34:34 <puzzlet> ah, that's supposed to show the words are increasing quadratically.
08:35:49 <puzzlet> and some other collections in http://www.puzzlet.org/puzzlet/BabelFish~BabelFishAutomata
08:36:10 <pgimeno> I don't see what makes them interesting though
08:36:53 <puzzlet> because it wasn't designed to behave that way
08:37:08 <pgimeno> what wasn't? BabelFish itself?
08:37:35 <pgimeno> oh, I think I'm starting to get it
08:37:55 <puzzlet> not at all, as a translation service
08:39:48 <puzzlet> and some of those phenomena have some strict rules, and we call it "Babel Fish automata"
08:40:49 <puzzlet> translating "Pink"(English) into "Pink-color"(Korean) causes another one: http://www.puzzlet.org/puzzlet/BabelFish~Pink
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08:45:14 <puzzlet> he is a member from Babel Fish Research Group
08:46:31 <pgimeno> aren't there more complex cycles?
08:46:35 <puzzlet> iterative translating manually is so cumbersome, so he and i made an irc bot to do that.
08:47:16 <puzzlet> http://www.puzzlet.org/puzzlet/BabelFish~ItItOfItIt
08:48:38 <puzzlet> we aim for sth like Turing Machine made out of it, but it would be hardly possible ;)
08:49:15 <pgimeno> oh well, Thue works by string substitution, maybe this can do something alike
08:50:05 <pgimeno> see http://catseye.webhop.net/
08:50:47 <puzzlet> ah, so many languages from cat's eye
08:51:01 <tokigun> pgimeno: it's new domain of Cat's Eye Technologies?
08:51:42 <pgimeno> it's a (hopefully permanent) redirector
08:53:09 <pgimeno> maybe cpressey himself can tell us more precisely
08:53:51 <lament> this channel sure has grown
08:54:05 <pgimeno> heh, it's about the first thing I notice when I first entered some days ago
08:54:40 * lament stomps on cpressey's head
08:54:50 <lament> i'm not sure if he's conscious
08:55:02 <pgimeno> if he was, now he isn't ;)
08:55:43 * puzzlet is reading Thue documentation
08:56:18 <lament> i had written a nice Thue interpreter in javascript
08:56:21 <lament> and then it vanished :(
08:56:35 <pgimeno> there's one in the wayback machine, is it yours?
08:56:57 <pgimeno> it's in my bookmarks, hold on
08:57:37 <pgimeno> http://web.archive.org/web/20031210145310/http://cyberspace.org/~lament/thue.html
08:59:12 <lament> okay, now the official home address is http://z3.ca/~lament/thue.html
08:59:42 <pgimeno> nice, I'll add it to my bookmarks (but I'll keep the wayback machine one just in case)
09:01:06 <lament> i think i wrote it at work :)
09:01:38 <lament> it's nice that wayback machine archives js as well as html
09:01:50 <pgimeno> and in some cases even .zip
09:02:27 <pgimeno> that's how I've managed to recover the True distribution (which is based, quite unsurprisingly, in False)
09:03:14 <puzzlet> Another Game of Text - http://puzzlet.org/tmp/pipe.htm
09:03:27 <puzzlet> Compare with http://puzzlet.org/tmp/braille.htm
09:07:38 <pgimeno> puzzlet, would you mind adding Arial Unicode MS to the list of fallback fonts?
09:08:27 <puzzlet> i just don't know much about unicode fonts
09:09:02 <lament> the sierpinsky triangle thue program has such a pretty memory state
09:09:21 <pgimeno> and Courier New just in case... the font that gets used here is not proportional :(
09:12:38 <puzzlet> i gotta be away from my keyboard
09:12:41 <tokigun> lament: links at http://z3.ca/~lament/ascii-art.html seem to be broken
09:13:50 <lament> i'll have to recover all that as well
09:13:58 <lament> just look at http://web.archive.org/web/20031218155802/cyberspace.org/~lament/ instead
09:14:15 <lament> mind you the page is 2 years old
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11:41:58 <pgimeno> I think it would be a good idea to write an ORK version of the CSS descrambler; ORK is just so verbose and explanatory that it could serve as a boost to the freedom-of-speech point
11:44:37 <kipple> are you volunteering? ;)
11:45:00 <pgimeno> an ORK interpreter is higher in my list of priorities
11:45:16 <kipple> initializing those arrays will be quite a lot of code...
11:45:31 <kipple> that would also be nice :)
11:46:34 <pgimeno> ORK is half the way towards an usable teaching language
11:52:26 <kipple> I somehow doubt that is Greg's intention
11:53:27 <pgimeno> well, he agreed that it was halfway usable for object-oriented programming teaching
11:53:42 <pgimeno> just I think that that's not his priority
11:55:38 <kipple> Wow. I just looked at the perl CSS descrambler on the CSS gallery. Perl has to be the most esoteric of the regular languages :)
11:56:36 <pgimeno> that's been commented here a few days ago
11:56:47 <kipple> then again, the tiniest C version is almost just as bad
11:57:55 <kipple> or good, depending on your point of view :)
11:59:48 <pgimeno> btw, the IOCCC has become a tiny coding contest these days... sorta lost some interest
14:01:06 <GregorR> It's curious that people have taken an interest in ORK ;)
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14:05:12 <Keymaker> it's weeeeeeeeeeekeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeend!!!
14:05:34 <GregorR> I haven't even gone to work on Friday yet >_<
14:05:55 <Keymaker> but notice when i'm worrying about monday
14:06:07 <fizzie> I just woke up, and it's 16:00.
14:06:22 <fizzie> I haven't gone to work on Friday yet either. :p
14:06:45 <Keymaker> may i ask how you managed to sleep so late?
14:06:55 <fizzie> I was pretty tired, what with not sleeping more than ~3 hours/night during the last week.
14:07:05 <GregorR> fizzie pulls out his marijuana - "And this helped too"
14:07:29 * GregorR has no clue whether that would actually help.
14:07:34 <GregorR> Is it an upper or a downer? Idonno
14:07:45 <fizzie> Besides, I slept only 0300 -> 1600, which is just 13 hours.
14:09:02 <GregorR> fizzie: I wouldn't if I didn't have to go to work.
14:11:15 <Keymaker> interesting stuff as there has been lately
14:11:33 <Keymaker> ORK version of decss would be worth of seeing
14:12:40 <Keymaker> lament: you know dopefish too?!
14:13:11 <GregorR> -ChanServ- Alternate: lament, last seen: 4 days (10h 4m 1s) ago
14:13:19 <GregorR> -ChanServ- Alternate: lament, last seen: 4 days (10h 4m 1s) ago
14:14:08 <Keymaker> as well, that cpressey stuff was fun
14:15:01 <Keymaker> puzzlet (and tokigun): that Babel Fish Research Group is really cool idea i think
14:15:20 <Keymaker> as well, publish some results in english ;)
14:20:21 <Keymaker> on a sidenote; has anyone seen a film called the Audition?
14:20:33 <Keymaker> it seems to be some horror movie
14:21:12 <Keymaker> i usually don't watch movies from tv, but just thought this one might be worth seeing
14:22:39 <GregorR> Never heard of it *shrugs*
14:22:55 <GregorR> How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? -> BABEL FISH -> How much wood is arctomys possible because arctomys it can the wood tap strike slightly?
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14:25:49 <Keymaker> "The last section of the film is one of the most brutal torture scenes ever put on celluloid, and it is definitely not for the faint of heart. But even in its gore-filled shockingness, the film is beautiful to look at, a monumental achievement by a director willing to take chances and challenge his audience."
14:25:54 <Keymaker> http://www.moviesonline.ca/movie_details.php?id=105
14:32:30 <fizzie> I'm trying to find a fixed point of the ps2pdf/pdf2ps conversion pair.
14:34:02 <fizzie> It is being difficult. Apparently each successive iteration adds 13 bytes to the postscript.
14:34:51 <fizzie> Hmm. The 13 bytes consist of the lines "0 0 0 0 re" and "f".
14:34:57 <fizzie> No, no, was just curious.
14:36:22 <fizzie> Interesting, though. The original postscript was 92603 bytes, after the first iteration it had increased to 99447 bytes, but after the second it suddenly jumped to 1714687 bytes.
14:36:36 <fizzie> (That's ~100k -> 1.7M.)
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17:46:11 <pgimeno> fizzie: have you managed to ever get a decreasing number?
17:46:57 <lindi-> fizzie: what version of ghostscript btw?
17:48:00 <pgimeno> I'm not the postscript-oriented kind of guy
17:50:55 <pgimeno> anyway I'm curious about what the results are with the conversion
17:51:17 <fizzie> ESP Ghostscript 7.07.1 (2003-07-12)
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18:09:31 <puzzlet> surprisingly Wikipedia had launched hieroglyph support
18:09:39 <puzzlet> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:WikiHiero_syntax
18:09:55 <puzzlet> what it has to do with esoteric languages
18:11:28 <puzzlet> programming in hieroglyph seems classic, though :)
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18:24:20 <pgimeno> fizzie: about the size reduction, did you manage to get any?
18:36:48 <fizzie> No, the ps size is always monotonically increasing, and the pdf is quite constant.
18:36:51 <fizzie> See http://gehennom.org/~fis/ps2pdf.txt
18:49:20 <GregorR> Because I have waay to much free time, I've actually studied Hieroglyphs and the Ancient Egyptian language and grammar.
18:49:29 <GregorR> Aaaaand ... back to work :P
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21:01:43 <Keymaker> bf-hacks.org should be ready in 48
21:02:02 <Keymaker> seems i've received e-mail that told me that it should be functional in 48 hours :)
21:02:39 <Keymaker> better make some programs fast :)
21:04:22 <Keymaker> it's kinda neat how easy it is to do stuff via web.. like i just ordered the domain and paid it in web :)
21:06:35 <pgimeno> do you have any plans apart from the design?
21:07:10 <Keymaker> i have thought about making some section called "Study"
21:07:19 <Keymaker> which would have interesting stuff about brainfuck
21:07:32 <Keymaker> (the problem is to write this interesting stuff.. ;))
21:08:12 <pgimeno> oh well, it's easy, you know, just write it
21:08:38 <Keymaker> i guess i can get something done
21:08:51 <Keymaker> although that might appear long after the site is in web :)
21:09:01 <pgimeno> (that's true also for the Great Unification Theorem of Quantum Mechanics and Relativity, of course)
21:16:38 <pgimeno> is that spam or something? :P
21:21:12 <Keymaker> hmmm.. seems the audition (movie) starts in 15 minutes
21:23:27 <pgimeno> yes, I'm working in deep changes
21:24:12 <pgimeno> I wanted to write about my Malbolge adventure but there was no room for it, so I thought it was about time of updating it
21:24:29 <Keymaker> sounds like a good reading material
21:26:49 <Keymaker> seems i haven't managed to do almost anything in few weeks
21:27:07 <Keymaker> i wonder what i have been doing.. probably just chatting on this channel
21:27:36 <pgimeno> oh, surfing random websites is my source for inspiration
21:27:44 <pgimeno> did you read my Minesweeper article?
21:28:17 <pgimeno> it needs a bit of knowledge of logic gates
21:28:33 <Keymaker> yeah, i have some knowledge of those
21:28:41 <pgimeno> I just asked to show how I include lots of references of what I've visited
21:29:36 <pgimeno> just to prove my point that it's my source of inspiration :)
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23:45:07 <kipple> GregorR: which version of your page is the "official" one (i.e. which should I bookmark). befunge.org or formauri.es?
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23:50:13 <GregorR> kipple: http://eso.codu.org/ For the moment it points to befunge.org, but I'll change it if it becomes necessary to.
23:50:20 <GregorR> Hi and bye (back to work ;) )
23:50:54 <Keymaker> i hadn't guts to watch the movie :)
23:52:12 <kipple> speaking of which: Have you seen Braindead :)
23:52:27 * pgimeno prefers fuck rather than dead
23:52:34 <pgimeno> (sorry for the strong words)
23:54:27 <Keymaker> where was that minesweeper stuff again?
23:54:42 <GregorR> By the way, I got pointer support working in ORK, but as per usual I'm at work and can't upload it :-P
23:55:05 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/compurec/Minesweeper.php
23:55:15 <GregorR> I'm on a timecard, so if I leave, I get less 444
23:55:26 <GregorR> That I apparently can't type over VNC.
23:56:02 <pgimeno> GregorR: I have a few aspects to discuss with you about hosting, when you have the time
23:58:00 <GregorR> If you don't mind a slow, broken discussion, ask away ;)
23:58:44 <pgimeno> the main problem is that the server doesn't allow publishing directories
23:58:51 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/GregorR/
23:59:34 <pgimeno> pointing a link to a directory causes a 403
00:00:14 <pgimeno> (actually that can also be seen as a good security measure)
00:00:48 <GregorR> On my end, that's solved, I just need to send the proper index files.
00:01:06 <GregorR> I'd noticed that as well ;)
00:01:52 <GregorR> So I'll send the index files to you at about 4:30AM (your time zone) - will you be up? ;)
00:04:25 <pgimeno> the email is in a PM (sorry, one never knows if a spambot will also read IRC logs)
00:04:58 <kipple> I have given up hiding my email. Now I rely on spam filters insted
00:05:40 <GregorR> I just give fake email addresses.
00:05:48 <GregorR> I don't get much email that way ....
00:05:58 <GregorR> But I don't get much sam either!
00:06:19 <GregorR> BTW, my address is PresidentGregor@whitehouse.gov
00:07:29 <pgimeno> reminds me of that story... "BTW, my IP address is 127.0.0.1"
00:07:50 <kipple> There's no place like 127.0.0.1
00:08:17 <pgimeno> "hehe I'm formatting your HD you idiot"... PING TIMEOUT
00:08:38 <Keymaker> or at least something like that
00:08:50 <kipple> was on slashdot recently
00:09:01 <pgimeno> that's a very reduced version actually
00:09:34 <kipple> if the story's true...
00:09:46 <Keymaker> yeah.. hey, i am lame because i use firewall :)
00:10:05 <pgimeno> probably one of these... http://funny.evilbunny.org/display/1808/
00:10:50 <GregorR> I usually avoid being hacked by writing my entire operating system from the ground up in-house and never releasing the source code.
00:11:07 <GregorR> Works real well, and only takes a few years per iteration.
00:12:59 <Keymaker> iirc the guy said something like "gimme your ip #&(/" and i'll send you a virus #)(/)(#!!1"
00:17:46 <kipple> speaking of homemade OSes: Have anyone tried the BF OS loader?
00:18:01 <kipple> was posted on the brainfuck mailing list a while ago
00:22:27 <kipple> http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/programs/bf/bf.html
00:23:45 <Keymaker> yet still (iirc) calamari says he can't program in bf very well :)
00:24:29 <kipple> Ah, so Jeffrey is calamari :) good to know
00:28:36 <Keymaker> when i tried earlier today to invent some esoteric language mascot
00:28:58 <Keymaker> http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/stuff/ork.png
00:29:25 <kipple> is that supposed to be greg?
00:29:31 <Keymaker> GregorR: don't take it seriously; ORK and your hats are cool :)
00:29:51 <GregorR> I was wondering if that was one of my hats :-P
00:30:07 <GregorR> Though that creature isn't exactly an Or[ck]
00:30:31 <kipple> so, what's the most esoteric animal I wonder....
00:30:46 <GregorR> OOH, one sec, I know what it is!
00:30:54 <GregorR> I have to find it on Wikipedia again, just giive me a sec
00:32:35 <GregorR> Trying to paste over VNC = not fun
00:32:58 <GregorR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichoplax
00:37:02 <kipple> maybe cryptozoology is the place to look :)
00:37:06 <kipple> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptozoology
00:44:11 <GregorR> Incidentally, I don't wear glasses, so where did those come from?
00:44:48 <Keymaker> i was just trying to make esomascot
00:44:59 <Keymaker> and then got the idea to make it wear your hate
00:45:14 <Keymaker> and then i thought about adding some reference to ORK to that picture
00:45:45 <Keymaker> and those are just some strange eyes although they look like eyes
00:45:48 <GregorR> Seems like an oddly specific esomascot X-D
00:45:54 <kipple> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo
00:48:49 <Keymaker> this picture needs a *LOT* work:
00:48:49 <Keymaker> http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/stuff/mascots.png
00:49:00 <Keymaker> (and don't blame me, i don't have visual memory!)
00:58:27 <Keymaker> oh, and some lines up i meant to say they're just eyes although they look like eyeglasses
01:00:10 <Keymaker> well. anyways, i'm tired, and it's 3:03 am here
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04:33:25 <GregorR-L> w00t! My kipple tokenization finally works 8-D
07:01:57 <GregorR-L> http://www.befunge.org/fyb/placozoan.png
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07:14:12 <GregorR-L> You're in yet another time zone from everybody else X-D
07:15:04 <GregorR-L> Makes your IRC client respond with your computer's time.
07:16:15 <GregorR-L> Quite the wide range this channel has.
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07:49:36 <Keymaker> i should just upload other than test-index
07:50:44 <Keymaker> GregorR: so you got the kipple interpreter working?!
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08:06:09 <GregorR> I got the TOKENIZATION working.
08:06:18 <GregorR> I'm still a ways off from the full interpreter ;)
08:06:36 <GregorR> I can read in a kipple file and figure out what's a number, what's a stack, what's an operation, and organize it as such.
08:06:58 <GregorR> So did you see my mascot? ;)
08:08:13 <Keymaker> remember to look closely what the manual says about all the stuff
08:11:05 <Keymaker> this is important: "The program 1>a<2 a+a will result in a containing the values [1 4] and not [1 3]. Likewise for the - operator."
08:11:49 <GregorR> I'm going to accomplish that by peeking instead of popping for the + operator.
08:13:04 <Keymaker> wow -- so if.. i mean WHEN you have completed the kipple interpreter, ORK can create the C file that can be compiled..?
08:13:24 <Keymaker> and then we'll get interpreter written in C! that i can use on computer!
08:14:26 <Keymaker> it's kinda fun that the first interpreter (other than kipple's (person)) is written in esolang
08:17:20 <Keymaker> btw, do you have work today gregorr?
08:17:34 <Keymaker> or can you hack the interpreter all the day ;)
08:25:32 <GregorR> Well, it's 12:26AM for me right now :-P
08:25:36 <GregorR> So if you mean Saturday, no I don't.
08:51:48 <Keymaker> but well. gotta do some annoying studying today.. bye
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09:14:51 <pgimeno> Keymaker: congrats on your brand-new domain!
11:23:11 <fizzie> Mhnhmm... morning, assorted humans and others.
11:24:54 * pgimeno wonders which side is he(it?) on ;)
11:28:15 <fizzie> Well, it is the future already (past-2000), some of you might be computer programs. Although I'm a bit disappointed at the lack of flying cars... and the orbital-elevator-thing is still missing, too.
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12:19:28 <fizzie> I am trying out Lucene, apache project's text search engine thing.
12:19:56 <Keymaker> does it search text from internet or where?
12:20:32 <fizzie> Wherever you like. It doesn't include a web-crawler, though, it's just a search engine engine.
12:21:08 <fizzie> I'm using it to index the messages in Darkhive, but seems it'll take over 8 hours to build the index. (I'm estimating the speed as ~10 discussion-threads per second.)
12:22:25 <Keymaker> heh. there's plenty o' content
12:22:51 <fizzie> It might be faster once I add words like "ei", "joo" and such to the stop-word-list so it doesn't bother indexing those. I was going to build the index without any stop words first, since apparently you can get some term frequency information from the index, so I can check what are the most common words used there.
12:37:41 <Keymaker> (hour-lag reply..) pgimento: thanks
12:45:05 <Keymaker> should i add the programs to my site as block form
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13:04:47 <Keymaker> i'm just about to upload the first version of bf-hacks
13:05:39 <kipple> ha, Royal Brainfuck Society :D
13:08:06 <kipple> gotta go eat some breakfast. I'll check it out later
13:10:32 <Keymaker> now i should make more programs that would be worth of adding
13:11:03 -!- Keymaker has set topic: A new brainfuck site http://www.bf-hacks.org/ is opened!.
13:18:21 <Keymaker> now i should draw the 'favicon' or whatever that small picture is called that appears in most browsers when going to some site
13:28:59 -!- Keymaker has set topic: Another brainfuck site (http://www.bf-hacks.org/) is open!.
13:37:14 <kipple> so, will there be only BF stuff there?
13:37:51 <kipple> then maybe you should link to you other site...
13:38:11 <Keymaker> i'll do that probably sometime
13:38:30 <Keymaker> i just wonder where i would place the link..
13:39:00 <Keymaker> as well, must update yiap to add this link
13:40:28 <kipple> good colors. Much better than my black text on white background pages
13:42:24 <Keymaker> first i thought about pink background and yellow text, but this seemed a bit better
13:43:00 <kipple> ouch. would that even be readable?
14:05:09 <Keymaker> i try to make myself study for a while, so i close the computer. if don't close it i wouldn'tr ead :)
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15:50:39 <Keymaker> how it can be that lens can get so completely lost?! i've searched everywhere
15:57:35 <kipple> maybe because you can't see without it ;)
16:01:15 <Keymaker> well, i can keep my left eye closed
16:43:42 <pgimeno> glasses have the bad costume of being transparent
16:48:04 <Keymaker> as well, i finally found them couple of minutes ago
16:48:14 <Keymaker> now i'm trying to insert the lens back
16:50:04 <pgimeno> oh, congrats! it must have been quite uncomfortable to look for it with an eye closed
16:51:04 <Keymaker> ever noticed that if you lose some stuff you find it from a place you assume it never could get? :)
16:52:03 <Keymaker> i found these under my table. i didn't assume a lens could fly that far..
16:52:21 <pgimeno> everybody knows lenses don't fly :P
16:53:49 <Keymaker> too bad i can't fit it back completely
16:57:39 <pgimeno> grr, so many Debian packages changed since my last upgrade... I'm afraid I'll have to update the list
16:58:14 <pgimeno> any recommended graphical FTP client?
16:58:25 <pgimeno> I was about to install gftp, don't know how good or bad it is
17:00:24 <pgimeno> ok, then it may be worth downloading it separately and installing instead of upgrading
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17:50:07 <pgimeno> There is a scribe called pgimeno. There is a writer called GregorR. When GregorR is around: GregorR is to page pgimeno. If pgimeno's answer is hello: GregorR is to tell pgimeno if it's OK that pgimeno updates ork/index.html himself. If GregorR's answer is yes: pgimeno is to finish updating GregorR pages' mirror.
17:54:32 <pgimeno> I'm heating engines to write that deCSS descrambler :)
17:55:40 <pgimeno> well, not actually... unless someone lends me a "pause time" button
17:56:04 <kipple> never got it to work anyway ;)
17:56:42 <pgimeno> doh, in the meantime I'll put "fix kipple's pause-time button" in the queue
18:02:43 <fizzie> Is there an ORK syntax highlighting file for vim yet?
18:03:52 <pgimeno> nope, maybe GregorR forgot to include it ;)
18:08:01 <fizzie> Maybe I should write one, then try to use ORK for something. It must be a great language, since everyone's talking about it nowadays.
18:12:42 <fizzie> I lack a suitable project, though.
18:13:05 <pgimeno> I have one, do you want it?
18:17:07 <fizzie> If it's that deCSS thing, I probably don't.
18:18:13 <fizzie> Is that ork-0.7 a current version of the distribution?
18:18:16 <pgimeno> oh, it was worth trying anyway
18:24:17 <fizzie> Ork only has number and string arrays, not arrays of generic classes? Aw.
19:20:13 <fizzie> Hmmm. If I write "blablah is to foo 1", when blablah is a member of class that "can foo a number", it compiles to foo(1) and then g++ complains, because the actual function is a foo(double& ref). This is annoying. Do I need to store all arguments to temporary variables? Admittedly it adds to the oh-so-nice verbosity, but...
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19:21:48 <pgimeno> hm... disable the warning?
19:21:56 <fizzie> It's not a warning, it's an error.
19:22:04 <fizzie> You can't convert a constant to a reference, obviously.
19:22:24 <fizzie> Also, if I want a big ( >= 2^31 ) numerical constant, I need to use nnnn.0 instead of nnnn, which is a bit.. undesirable, since I really shouldn't have to know about the generated C++ code.
19:22:38 <fizzie> (That's an error too. error: integer constant is too large for "long" type
19:22:50 <pgimeno> oh, double& is byref... sorry I'm not much into C+
19:24:42 <pgimeno> I guess GregorR didn't care much about documenting integer limits
19:25:07 <fizzie> Well, all the numbers are doubles, it's just that the constant needs a .0 at the end.
19:25:37 <fizzie> There could be some sort of identifier renaming thing, too. I can't have a function called "xor" now, since that's a reserved C++ keyword apparently.
19:26:38 <pgimeno> oh, yes I agree on the renaming
19:27:07 <pgimeno> hopefully my interpreter will cope with these issues
19:31:11 <fizzie> Heh, doing logical operations is quite fun, too. I would like to test for some bits, but the "1" I get from 124421.000000 / 4.000000 % 2.000000 is different from the "1" I get from a constant 1, due to floating-point inaccurancies, so they don't compare as 'equals'.
19:35:02 <fizzie> But it's so _verbose_.
19:35:18 <fizzie> Anyway, turns out that in this particular case they are the same 1.0s. Still, I'm sure I'm going to get bitten by floating point things.
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19:36:12 <pgimeno> quite likely; Real Programmers do FP math with integers
19:37:29 <Keymaker> :) ah, yes. integers are the best
19:39:43 <Keymaker> what was the key combination to stop program in dos console? (i'm in win xp this time)
19:40:40 <pgimeno> ctrl+c tends to work less reliably
19:47:02 <Keymaker> i got my first thue program done
19:47:27 <Keymaker> that is basically the same than hello world
19:47:40 <Keymaker> but now i think i got how this particular program works
20:15:20 <fizzie> I'm trying to write a crc32 calculator in ORK to get a feeling on how easy it's to do bit-fiddling in.
20:16:21 <fizzie> So "I am to loop" is an implicit keyword, not a call to function 'loop'?
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20:21:30 <GregorR> Yeah, I realize the issue with putting a constant in an argument ...
20:21:37 <GregorR> I'll add that to my todo list.
20:22:02 <GregorR> And you can integerize something by modulo-ing it with a very high number.
20:22:18 <GregorR> I forgot to make a floor operation 8-D
20:24:16 <GregorR> Or you could add a floor to libork *shrugs*
20:26:30 <fizzie> Oh, so modulo is the integer operation and not a fmod()-like thing?
20:26:46 <fizzie> Heh, at least http://gehennom.org/~fis/crc.ork now builds _something_ in lookup table. It's probably not correct, though.
20:27:42 <GregorR> My next iteration will add: 1) Proper handling of constants, 2) Bitwise operators, 3) A floor operator.
20:27:49 <GregorR> Since these are what "the people" seem to need ;)
20:29:08 <fizzie> Wahh. Did I write my logician class for no reason if there's going to be a built-in bitwise operation class? :p
20:29:44 <GregorR> If your logician works, maybe it will become the first internal class written in real ORK ;)
20:30:13 <fizzie> Well, I guess it does work, but it only calculates xor for now, since that's the only thing I needed.
20:30:35 <fizzie> I also added a convenience method to do "&1" and get an easy way to branch on it.
20:30:37 <GregorR> I can't access the file :(
20:30:42 <fizzie> A logician has a helper which is a mathematician.
20:30:57 <GregorR> 4) User-defined classes need to be able to "say"
20:31:17 <fizzie> That'd be nice. Currently you need to do "If Frege's helper says it's equal"
20:31:51 <GregorR> I'll implement 1, 3 and 4 some time tonight.
20:31:53 <fizzie> I wonder what's the problem with that web server. Someone said it works with a 'www.' prefix. Strange.
20:32:48 <GregorR> Looks like you need to fenagle your DNS.
20:32:54 * GregorR goes off, to come back later.
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20:38:48 <Kmkr> what do you need to crash win xp?
20:38:54 <Kmkr> -change user for a while
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21:06:28 <Keymaker> and i also understand now how to make finite loops
21:06:28 <Keymaker> l::=~This line will be printed five times.
21:08:27 <pgimeno> (you can count with it with not much effort)
21:08:28 <Keymaker> :) laurent has done it already
21:09:11 <pgimeno> I guess replacing 9->8, 8->7, etc. can make it count down
21:09:29 <pgimeno> (with some marker or whatever)
21:10:04 <pgimeno> oh, yeah, that's where I got lament's link from
21:11:19 <fizzie> Unary arithmetic is easiest. You just need a long string of 'x's.
21:11:25 <fizzie> That's what I've used in most of my sed programs.
21:12:21 <fizzie> Although my fibonacci calculator used decimal numbers and had a decimal addition part.
21:18:03 <GregorR> Now, should I bring out my laptop and work on the Kipple interpreter or ORK 0.8 ....
21:18:08 <GregorR> Or should I do more yard work ....
21:18:52 <GregorR> Y'know, that yard work does sound mighty appealing.
21:18:54 <Keymaker> let the nature take care of that yard ;)
21:19:09 <GregorR> Right now we're killing everything.
21:19:48 <GregorR> Sadly, I HAVE to do yard work, where as I don't HAVE to do the Kipple interpreter, so see you in 30 min or so >_O
21:26:45 <fizzie> There was a thue interpreter somewhere?
21:33:15 <fizzie> I tried thue.c, but I'm not sure it works correctly.
21:33:42 <Keymaker> are you sure your program is correct? ;)
21:34:31 <fizzie> No, but I'm running this in the debugging mode and it does:
21:34:51 <fizzie> Where the only "cg" production is "cg::=gc"
21:35:18 <lament> http://z3.ca/~lament/thue.html
21:35:38 <lament> except that it seems down
21:35:56 <lament> (but there was that waybackmachine link in the channel log)
21:41:44 <fizzie> Mm. Well, that javascript interpreter did do what I was expecting it to.
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22:41:54 <GregorR-L> And I also covered a bug that would allow you to say something like:
22:52:45 <GregorR-L> Now, to make classes able to say things.
23:01:07 <fizzie> How's the syntax like? 'Foo can say ..'?
23:03:26 <fizzie> 'k. Hmnnn.. then there was some strangeness in the naming. Seems I can't use multi-word method names. :/ They work correctly in invocations ("lookup table is to print out the table" => "... print_out_the_table()") but not in function declarations, which uses only 'print' as the name and (possibly) assumes the rest to be a parameter specifier or something.
23:03:52 <fizzie> Not a horrible problem, though.
23:03:57 <GregorR-L> It's a problem of English grammar.
23:04:16 <GregorR-L> "My object is to mercilessly devour Bob."
23:04:37 <GregorR-L> The parser would have to actually know the difference between adjectives, verbs and nouns.
23:04:43 <GregorR-L> And I'm not willing to go there ;)
23:04:50 <GregorR-L> So methods need to have one word names :P
23:05:49 <fizzie> Well, you could try to find the longest or shortest matching method name. But I guess it's not necessary.
23:06:08 <GregorR-L> For the sake of my sanity, I'm leaving it as it is for the moment ;)
23:06:29 <fizzie> I'm too tired to do anything ork-ish today (01am and I actually need to wake up tomorrow), but I'll convert my logician to use that funky new 'say' system when I have time.
23:07:18 <GregorR-L> I didn't implement a logician class ;)
23:08:18 <fizzie> For not implementing the logician. :p
23:09:13 <GregorR-L> http://www.befunge.org/fyb/ork/ < 0.8 is out
23:25:24 <Keymaker> here's my first real thue program:
23:25:25 <Keymaker> http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/thue/digitalr.t
23:25:45 <Keymaker> it calculates the digital root
23:25:57 <Keymaker> (yeah, i know, it's my traditional program..)
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23:29:11 <fizzie> Fibonacci is my traditional program, usually closely followed by a befunge interpreter.
23:30:15 <GregorR-L> Fibonacci was my first ORK program.
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02:36:51 <wooby> working on a BF compiler of sorts if anyone wants to check it out
02:40:56 <wooby> bf is the target heh
02:41:02 <wooby> http://alan.dipert.org/bfgen.php, http://alan.dipert.org/bfgen.php.txt
02:42:41 <lament> is your source language turing-complete?
02:42:49 <lament> is it easier to use than brainfuck?
02:43:34 <wooby> well, it doesn't do enough yet to really qualify as its own real language
02:43:52 <wooby> but i hope for it to eventually be basic-like, so yes it should be turing complete (mind memory restrictions)
02:44:58 <lament> are you aware of calamari's work?
02:45:56 <lament> you should talk to him
02:46:02 <lament> he comes here often i think
02:46:16 <lament> dunno where his site is, but he made a basic 2 bf compiler
02:46:24 <wooby> what's he working on?
02:46:28 <wooby> oh awesome, that's right up my alley
02:47:04 <lament> he's working on a c compiler
02:47:09 <lament> not sure if actively or not
02:47:56 <wooby> yeah i've seen a perl BF macro script... converts a sort of asm to BF
02:48:11 <wooby> but a real compiler would be sweet :)
02:50:21 <wooby> so what are your interests?
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03:50:21 <puzzlet> http://www.animalsontheunderground.com/
03:55:16 <puzzlet> argh.. ioccc deadline is coming, and i need an inspiration :(
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03:56:26 <wooby> lament was telling me about some of your work with basic->bf and c->bf
03:56:54 <wooby> yeah, i'm really interested in that
03:57:12 <wooby> was wondering if you had any software completed?
03:57:26 <wooby> today i hacked out a proof of concept thing in PHP that does some lame stuff
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03:58:00 <calamari> not the c compiler, though. I started it and realized I didn't have sufficient clue to complete it properly (yet)
03:58:16 <wooby> yeah it would be a tough one
03:59:22 <wooby> i have a friend who's done a bf environment in vhdl... runs on an fpga
03:59:31 <wooby> would be cool to write neat stuff that runs on it
03:59:52 <calamari> http://sourceforge.net/cvs/?group_id=59653
03:59:56 <wooby> also wandered across a hardware bf machine design on some website
04:00:03 <calamari> you can get the latest cvs version of bfbasic from there
04:00:44 <calamari> last time it was worked on was spring break
04:01:39 <wooby> i'll have a stab at it
04:02:03 <calamari> it's written in Java, so hopefully it won't be too big a deal to get it to compile
04:02:22 <wooby> that's perfect, i know java best
04:02:27 <calamari> if you have any problems: jeff at kidsquid dot com
04:02:30 <wooby> much to my own detriment lol
04:03:23 <calamari> feels like basic used to for me.. able to just get things done without too much hassle
04:04:32 <wooby> yeah, i feel the same way
04:04:53 <calamari> you might also check out bfasm... it's a little dated now (bfbasic has kinda shown it up with the backend) .. http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/compilers/bfasm/bfasm.html
04:06:28 <calamari> I'll be using bfasm, or a rewritten version of it when I write the c compiler
04:06:49 <calamari> that way I can compile c to asm and assemble it in a separate step
04:07:46 <calamari> if I knew the technicals of gcc better, I'd probably be able to write a backend for it and call it done
04:08:06 <wooby> yeah, well that's the ultimate solution
04:08:25 <calamari> yeah it'd be gcc -> bfasm -> bf
04:08:26 <wooby> but also would be ridiculously complicated heh
04:10:02 <calamari> I dunno.. I think it wouldn't be too bad given decent documentation
04:10:42 <calamari> have you created any esolangs?
04:10:46 <wooby> this program is awesome
04:10:55 <wooby> not really just tinkered with Bf on and off
04:10:59 <wooby> started off with a java interpreter
04:11:04 <wooby> then got to thinking about a compiler
04:11:32 <wooby> http://www.neologic.net/ad/programs/Brainfuck.java
04:11:56 <wooby> here's the fruit of today's efforts: http://alan.dipert.org/bfgen.php
04:11:58 <calamari> maybe Malbolge to bf? or bf to Malbolge?
04:12:15 <wooby> see also http://alan.dipert.org/bfgen.php.txt
04:15:20 <calamari> you do realize once you start down this path you may never be sane again? :)
04:15:40 <wooby> don't understand my fascination... just goin with it :)
04:16:16 <wooby> it started to get bad when i was writing CGI pages in BF just because i could lol
04:16:40 <calamari> yeah.. you've written a string -> bf generator?
04:18:30 <calamari> that is something I've been pretty interested in as well (optimal bf code to reproduce a certain string). wrote a genetic bf text generator, but it's from scratch, so it's probably way off from real genetic programming
04:18:48 <wooby> jeez i can't remember the problem
04:18:56 <wooby> but theres this famous problem of generating the most output from the least code
04:19:23 <wooby> the "busy bee" problem or something? anyways i've put some thought into how to best compress strings and large numbers
04:19:39 <wooby> turing machine busy beaver
04:19:54 <wooby> Given a fixed finite number of symbols and states, select those Turing machine programs which eventually halt when run with a blank tape. Among these programs find the maximum number of non-blank symbols left on the tape when they halt.
04:20:04 <calamari> hmm, hadn't considered compression.. that's a good idea
04:20:21 <wooby> goes along with the problem of storing large numbers in BF cells with minimal code
04:20:37 <wooby> i came across a page that had a bunch of different appraoches, the most efficient being solutions that used exponents
04:20:45 <wooby> i wrote one in php that spit out multiplications ops
04:23:02 <wooby> but yeah, this bfbasic program is great... very comprensive!
04:31:19 <wooby> are you in school?
04:31:50 <calamari> attending the University of Arizona
04:32:14 <wooby> went to Rochester Institute of Technology for a time, now on a sort of hiatus
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04:35:17 <wooby> could say my esoteric language fascination led me to the army... where i learned arabic heh
04:37:11 <wooby> hm, i really do need to come up with my own esoteric language now that you mention it
04:38:47 <calamari> I've been trying to figure out what the Fractal language (Star Trek) should be like
04:39:55 <wooby> ha, can't recall it
04:40:00 <wooby> it's from the original series?
04:42:29 <calamari> next generation.. ever once in a while Data will use a fractal program.. in one movie he locks the borg out with a "fractal encryption code" whatever that is :)
04:43:27 <calamari> there are never any details, but I take it to be highly difficult to program in and somewhat powerful in its abilities
04:46:51 <wooby> heh, i saw the episode a few weeks ago where data spits out his specifications
04:55:41 <wooby> hm, does bfbasic handle negatives?
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07:26:12 <calamari> (wooby): not really.. doesn't handle floating point either
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08:19:15 <GregorR> So, I have an excellent story.
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08:19:28 <GregorR> I will repeat this since Keymaker just joined ;)
08:19:30 <GregorR> So, I have an excellent story.
08:19:37 <GregorR> I was just out with some friends ...
08:19:44 <GregorR> And we were parked in a parking lot.
08:19:48 <GregorR> While somebody was in a store.
08:19:57 <GregorR> The rest of us were watching this guy in his apartment.
08:20:06 <GregorR> (Since his window was open, and so were his drapes)
08:20:13 <GregorR> He was walking around in his underwear.
08:20:17 <GregorR> Then he removed his underwear.
08:20:30 <GregorR> Then he sat down at his computer, and (we can only presume) began to masturbate to porn.
08:20:45 <GregorR> After a discussion over what we should do to freak him out, we decided to scream "Jesus" at him.
08:20:55 <GregorR> He stood up, quite freaked out.
08:21:01 <GregorR> And we laughed and laughed and laughed.
08:28:05 <GregorR> Teaches him a good lesson in closing his window that is OVER A PUBLICLY ACCESSABLE, OPEN 24-HRS PARKING LOT
08:29:27 <GregorR> And that is the story of why I didn't finish the Kipple interpreter today :-P
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13:39:28 <pgimeno> <calamari> I've been trying to figure out what the Fractal language (Star Trek) should be like
13:39:42 <pgimeno> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/infinity.html <- pretty much like that I think
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18:53:53 <Keymaker> i must get the version 8 to linux as well
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01:25:31 <GregorR> ..............................too quiet 8-O
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17:12:20 <Keymaker> mmh.. this new opera is a dreambrowser..
17:13:06 <fizzie> What, so instead of the Internet it browses dreams?
17:13:32 <fizzie> We have a campus license here, I could install it here, but haven't felt the need yet.
17:15:50 <Keymaker> first time i'm trying these new skins that can be downloaded
17:43:21 <Keymaker> msbbhl (must study.. be back (hopefully) later)
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20:48:03 <wooby> i just read about it the other day, never messed with it
20:48:19 <wooby> yeah these esoteric languages are a trip
20:49:07 <fizzie> I just wrote a grammar for the language: "a^m b^n c^(m+n)". Looking at old exams here, 'introduction to theoretical computer science' exam tomorrow. "S -> aSc | E", "E -> bEc | _". Then something just snapped and I wrote a mostly thue-compatible (small notational differences) non-context-free version at http://www.gehennom.org/~fis/grammar.txt which manages to be about gazillion times more complicated than necessary.
20:49:07 <wooby> have yet to come up with my own
20:49:58 <Keymaker> (although i have no idea what it does)
20:52:38 <fizzie> It just constructs all strings that have n 'a':s, m 'b':s and (m+n) 'c':s. It's not really thue-friendly, though.
20:52:55 <fizzie> It's just interesting how over-complicated that thing can be.
20:56:11 <fizzie> push @{$a}, [$r, $pk, [$ss, $start-1, $i, $si], [$es, $end-1, $i+$start, $ei]] if($#{$p} == 1 && $p->[0] eq $ss && $p->[1] eq $es);
20:56:33 <fizzie> Maybe my variable naming is suboptimal.
20:59:39 <Keymaker> oh, and i got the small thue prog done i was working on
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21:00:31 <wooby> i say, go for supoptimal variable naming
21:00:31 <fizzie> http://www.gehennom.org/~fis/a_simple_loop.txt :) (Sorry for the non-esoteristicnessity.)
21:00:35 <wooby> we're in #esoteric after all!
21:02:46 <fizzie> I guess I should do something with ORK. Maybe after the exams tomorrow.
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23:03:37 <pgimeno> hooray, power outage season is here! how I was missing it!
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06:51:41 <GregorR-L> I just compiled 2LI for DOS, 16-bit 8-D
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11:01:10 <pgimeno> did I mention it's power outage season?
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19:48:11 <Keymaker> ah, good ol' power outage season!
19:48:33 <Keymaker> look, here they come again! power off!!!!11 YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
19:49:19 <Keymaker> anyways, don't take me seriously.. :) hopefully they'll end sometime soon pgimeno
19:52:12 <Keymaker> hmm. the washing machine sounds funny
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23:15:01 <kipple> Gregor: Ork is now featured at www.99-bottles-of-beer.net :)
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23:22:32 <GregorR> I think I could do it *shrugs*
23:23:59 <pgimeno> at some time I'll write that JS or Python ORK interpreter...
23:25:21 <GregorR> I'll believe it when I see it ;)
23:25:34 <GregorR> No offense to your pythonin' or Javascriptin' abilities of course.
23:26:22 <pgimeno> I've writing a symbolic derivative calculator in JS already
23:26:35 <lament> does ORK have any implementation?
23:26:45 <GregorR> Here's a challenge: a version of 99-bottles-of-beer written in Brainfuck or some equally terse language, in which the "singer" gets progressively more drunk. Also, "pass it around" becomes "drink it all down"
23:27:17 <kipple> but the compiler is nice.
23:27:58 <GregorR> Maybe it would end at around 85 by just going ei...bo-bee...*slam*
23:28:11 <kipple> World of Warcraft has a function like that
23:28:50 <kipple> you get slurred words, but also blurred vision
23:29:09 <GregorR> lament: I'll ignore that comment ;)
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20:21:31 <Keymaker> grhh.. something's wrong with this connection today.. i'd rather have one of those power outages than this, afterall i could look at the screen in candle light just as easily..
20:23:42 <kipple> it's been quiet here lately
20:24:05 <Keymaker> (and will be the next week and bit more)
20:24:15 <Keymaker> and then i can spend here more time.. i hope..
20:25:03 <kipple> I've started putting together an esoteric web page
20:25:10 <kipple> but not much stuff yet
20:25:18 <fizzie> My exam period is over!
20:25:33 <Keymaker> mine is about to start next week..
20:25:35 <fizzie> Now if I could just get rid of tiredness..
20:25:58 <fizzie> That's what I've been trying.
20:25:59 <kipple> yeah, you might try that
20:26:28 <Keymaker> hmm.. try to watch tv. everything's so (#/)(#321! boring there thesedays
20:26:41 <kipple> I'm off to see Lost in 10 mins...
20:26:59 <pgimeno> (#/)(#321! - is that a new esolang?
20:27:37 <fizzie> I was also going to teach/promote Befunge to my girlfriend, so that she'd appreciate esolangs more. I'm currently trying to decide if that's a good idea or not.
20:28:41 <Keymaker> pgimeno: you wish.. just random keys
20:28:51 <fizzie> I think I recall her mentioning she liked Scheme more than C, so...
20:29:29 <pgimeno> oh well, maybe she's lambda-oriented
20:29:55 <pgimeno> I meant lambda calculus in general
20:30:18 <Keymaker> i'd like to learn unlambda sometime
20:30:23 <fizzie> Befunge isn't very functional, though. But I don't speak unlambda at all myself.
20:30:26 <Keymaker> although it's not my cup of tea either
20:30:54 <pgimeno> I'm not very comfortable with Scheme, I use it as any other imperative language
20:31:11 <kipple> isn't that the Lisp-like lang?
20:31:23 <fizzie> Most people do call it a lisp dialect.
20:31:35 <fizzie> It's a lot cleaner than common lisp, though.
20:31:50 <kipple> Lisp is extremely cool, but I wouldn't use it normally
20:31:56 <pgimeno> I needed it to write GIMP scripts, that's why I learned it
20:32:54 <fizzie> Our "introduction to programming" course I went to a ~year ago has traditionally used Scheme. (Although they moved to Java now.)
20:33:51 <pgimeno> they'll be teaching ork when there's a virtual machine compiler ready
20:34:09 <fizzie> We've been quite unhappy about the switch, actually. Java courses tend to teach Java, not programming.
20:34:18 <kipple> there's an old joke which is something like: "We've stolen the Lisp source code to [insert some famous software], and to prove it we will give you the last page".
20:34:31 <kipple> then they give you a page full of ))))))))))))))))))
20:34:50 <pgimeno> oh well, Derive (the math package) is written in Lisp
20:35:15 <fizzie> I don't think I've had more than 14 consecutive )s, but I haven't written anything very big in scheme. A corewars interpreter/environment/thing once.
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20:35:18 <pgimeno> as is Maxima (the math package)
20:36:01 <GregorR-L> Gregor needs to be entertained for an hour of free time in the middle of his day :-P
20:36:08 <pgimeno> corewars interpreter? uhm, too big a prog for me to write in that thing, I'm no so masochists
20:36:33 <pgimeno> that's why I'm using malbolge :)
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20:39:29 <lament> you know what's boring?
20:39:31 <fizzie> Well, it was for the course, not a voluntary thing. The list of possible topics mostly included various small games, corewars sounded most interesting of them. (Compared to a spreadsheet application or graph algorithm visualization.)
20:39:32 <lament> this CS lab is boring.
20:39:45 <fizzie> Besides, the "gui toolkit" (if you can call it that) we were supposed to use was... horrible.
20:40:17 <fizzie> http://www.cs.hut.fi/Studies/T-93.210/xdraw-doc/
20:40:26 <fizzie> It can draw lines and fill rectangles, and that's about it.
20:40:44 <fizzie> A "do your own widgets" thing.
20:42:22 <pgimeno> only marginally better than plain DOS
20:43:18 <fizzie> I guess they wanted all applications to have different-looking buttons, otherwise inspecting the results would've been too boring.
20:45:02 <GregorR-L> I'm sooooooooo close to a working Kipple interpreter :-P
20:45:04 <pgimeno> that's only an excuse if the only available GUI was Athena widgets
20:46:16 <pgimeno> GregorR-L: on line 585 what?
20:47:12 <Keymaker> (on a sidenote, i was away for a while because i was eating evening-breakfast)
20:49:30 <fizzie> Well, xdraw is admittedly quite portable... although a significant minority (if not majority) of the submitted programs had issues with text placement on the IRIX boxen the demo sessions were on. (Default fonts on those things are _huge_.)
20:49:58 <fizzie> Not many had sophisticated layout managers to cope with different font sizes. :p
20:51:23 <pgimeno> GregorR-L: what's the status of arrays in Ork?
20:52:05 <fizzie> And what about non-string/number-arrays?
20:56:13 <fizzie> Ooh, and generics/templates. Then someone can implement rest of the collection classes in ORK. "There is such a thing as a hashmap of K, V. A hashmap of K, V has a key which is a K. --- I have a hashmap of number, string called map."
20:59:14 <GregorR-L> For other arrays you'd need to use something like linear linked lists.
20:59:53 <GregorR-L> And templates would just be a matter of writing them - anybody want to volunteer?
21:00:45 <fizzie> Well, linked lists aren't that bad.
21:01:43 <fizzie> But a generic 'void *'-style type could help. It's a bit silly to have a separate linked list class for oranges and apples.
21:02:49 <fizzie> I probably won't have time to consider volunteering or anything before next week, though.
21:12:00 <Keymaker> anyways. good luck with the kipple interpreter gergor
21:13:24 <Keymaker> rhh.. me start to be reading-ready. me goes to bed to read something.
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21:17:47 <pgimeno> -lilo/Wallops- Hi all. Just a reminder. We're still looking for help with coding the next generation replacement for services. The project is at its very early stages; have spec, need coder help.
21:18:45 <pgimeno> http://dunnage.blogspot.com/2005/05/reprise-seeking-volunteer-coding-help.html
21:19:32 <pgimeno> -lilo/Wallops- Right now, I think the python help would be the priority. If you're interested in talking about it, feel free to message me. Thanks.
21:19:43 <lament> oh, not that kind of expert :)
21:27:11 <kipple> Gregor: great news about the interpreter! can't wait :)
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23:14:18 <GregorR-L> OK, I have everything working except input, output, @ and the string preprocessor :-P
23:14:36 <kipple> the preprocessor is optional
23:14:53 * GregorR-L tosses the preprocessor out the window
23:15:35 <GregorR-L> So, kipple, quick question, if the input was "Hello World!" the ! would pop first, right?
23:16:49 <GregorR-L> And if you produced output by pushing H-e-l-l-o, it would output "olleH", yes?
23:20:59 <kipple> btw, the @ stack will probably be gone in the next version... :D
23:23:16 <GregorR-L> Making wussy users use atoi is infinitely better anyway.
23:24:06 <kipple> but I don't think you'll want to implement the next version in ORK ;)
23:24:31 <kipple> it has the ability to load code modules
23:25:45 <kipple> or kipple files, java classes or C libraries
23:27:13 <kipple> or anything else that can produce a .so or .dll
23:27:59 <GregorR-L> Or would it actually read .class files?
23:28:12 <kipple> it is written in java, so that is trivial
23:28:59 <kipple> did you have to add more features to ORK to make it?
23:29:20 <kipple> so it's pretty final now?
23:29:30 <GregorR-L> Hopefully I just have to get o working.
23:31:09 <GregorR-L> 1161 lines, and maybe working now 8-D
23:37:35 <GregorR-L> Apparently either i or o isn't quite working properly :'(
23:51:10 <GregorR-L> If you push ASCII 113 onto @, does it pop 1-1-3 or 3-1-1?
23:52:03 <kipple> it pushes 1-1-3, so yes, you're right
23:53:04 <kipple> that's the most practial way to pop. Otherwise you would have to reverse it before output
23:58:22 <GregorR-L> Or more correctly, my interpreter isn't working for the Fibonacci'r.
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00:03:33 <GregorR-L> The fact that the quine doesn't quite work for me other isn't promising :-P
00:03:51 <kipple> so, which ones do work?
00:05:08 <kipple> could it be nested loops?
00:12:01 <GregorR-L> ? clears it if the top element is 0, yes?
00:15:59 <GregorR-L> 000 001 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 < this is the fibonacci sequence, right? ;)
00:16:17 <lament> ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
00:16:47 <GregorR-L> Well, that's MY Fibonacci sequence :-P
00:17:06 <lament> my fibonacci sequence goes like this:
00:21:49 <kipple> no it duplicates the top value on the stack
00:22:35 <kipple> have you messed up the + operator now?
00:24:03 <GregorR-L> So if you do a+b, it WILL pop b, right?
00:25:36 <GregorR-L> So t<a>b+a will pop a three times, right?
00:26:07 <kipple> public void execute() throws StackException {
00:26:07 <kipple> case '<': operand1.push(operand2.pop());
00:26:07 <kipple> case '>': operand2.push(operand1.pop());
00:26:10 <kipple> case '-': operand1.push(operand1.peek() - operand2.pop());
00:26:14 <kipple> case '+': operand1.push(operand1.peek() + operand2.pop());
00:26:18 <kipple> case '?': if (operand1.peek()==0) operand1.clear();
00:26:22 <kipple> case '(': jump = operand2.empty();//!continueLoop();
00:26:26 <kipple> case ')': jump = !loopOperator.operand2.empty();
00:26:34 <kipple> (from the interpreter)
00:26:35 <GregorR-L> Who reads code before trying to reimplement it *shrugs*
00:27:00 <kipple> if you read the spec, you wouldn't need to ;)
00:27:49 <GregorR-L> I did, I just didn't quite get it right 8-D
00:28:21 <kipple> let me know if the spec is unclear on some points
00:28:58 <GregorR-L> No, I'm just dumb on some points 8-D
00:32:25 <GregorR-L> I wish I knew what was going wrong :'(
00:36:09 <GregorR-L> That was the change that made it work 8-D
00:36:49 <GregorR-L> Now I just need a smarter atoi :-P
00:40:07 <kipple> are you sick of the mathematician now, or what.... :D
00:42:08 <GregorR-L> http://www.befunge.org/fyb/ork/exa/orkipple.ork
00:42:19 <GregorR-L> Not that I'll fix it, since it's not broken.
00:43:07 <kipple> so you can't have arrays of objects?
00:51:29 <kipple> hmm. can't get it to work
00:51:46 <GregorR-L> You have to EOF at the end of your input.
00:52:03 <kipple> hello world doesn't output anything
00:52:05 <GregorR-L> Or is it ork-0.8 yourself you can't get to work?
00:52:20 <GregorR-L> The non-string version I assume ;)
00:53:54 <kipple> the @ stack works a bit differently, but otherwise it seems to work fine :)
00:54:04 <GregorR-L> Yeah, I know I handled it badly :-P
01:02:24 <kipple> it doesn't handle !s in comments
01:02:52 <kipple> otherwise, I ran the kipple brainfuck interpreter just fine :D
01:10:31 <GregorR-L> Oh, yeah, ! is the separator between kipple and input.
01:10:45 <kipple> yeah, I found that out
01:10:57 <kipple> had some of those in comments in the BF interpreter
01:22:57 <kipple> anyway, great work Gregor!!!
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19:22:54 <Keymaker> and start programming some kipple stuff
19:24:13 <Keymaker> if i remember the log correct, it works perfectly.. all but text preprocessor which is basically useles
19:24:26 <Keymaker> and i wouldn't use it (text preprocessor)
19:24:55 <kipple> and the @ stack pads up to six (i think) zeroes
19:25:36 <kipple> otherwise it seems to be the same
19:25:57 <Keymaker> and i can always test them with the official applet in web ;)
19:26:10 <kipple> be sure to not use ! in comments
19:26:40 <kipple> because that is the char which is used to separate source code from input data
19:26:56 <kipple> cat example: (i>o) ! this is a text
19:28:32 <Keymaker> what was the link to gregorr's site?
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19:37:50 <Kmkr> rrghrghhhhhhhh
19:37:57 <Kmkr> net outage season is here again..
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19:39:09 <kipple> Keymaker: are you running linux?
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19:39:40 <kipple> you can compile my interpreter with gcj if you don't want to use the java version
19:40:05 <Kmkr> i tried but couldn't it compiled
19:40:16 <Kmkr> maybe if you could send compiler version..?
19:40:24 <kipple> it compiled fine on my debian box
19:40:44 <Kmkr> i suck with compilers
19:42:02 <Kmkr> i meant "..send the compiler version"
19:42:10 <Kmkr> can't type today
19:42:17 <kipple> ah, you mean the binary?
19:42:27 <Kmkr> i meant "compiled"
19:42:35 <Kmkr> sorry :D lol typed it two times wrong
19:42:55 <Kmkr> i accidentally typed the second time wrong when i was trying to get it right :)
19:43:39 <Kmkr> although i accidentally wrote two times "compiler".. so, not any java compiler
19:44:16 <lindi-> Kmkr: why don't you just install gcj?
19:44:42 <Kmkr> it's harder that way :)
19:44:48 <Kmkr> probably couldn't get it working
19:44:53 <kipple> here's how to compile it: gcj --main=Kipple Kipple.jar -o kipple
19:45:16 <Kmkr> where to get the kipple.jar?
19:45:38 <Kmkr> (from your site probably.. duh)
19:45:51 <Kmkr> i'll switch to linux in phew minutes
19:45:56 <kipple> but it looks like my server just went down again >:(
19:46:28 <Kmkr> aaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrgh
19:46:49 <kipple> hmm. looks like it's only apache. hang on a sec
19:47:02 <lindi-> kipple: anyways, thanks for making sure kipple runs with free software
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19:53:15 <Kmkr3> ..with this internet connection..
19:53:27 <Kmkr3> anyways. can you get the server up anytime soon?
19:53:49 <kipple> hopefully in a few minutes
19:54:32 <Kmkr3> i'm gonna die if this connection goes the same way than it was the previous summer
19:54:32 <Kmkr3> or at least complain
19:54:49 <Kmkr3> or change the whole thing to some other
20:14:31 <kipple> argh. doesn't look too good for the server
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21:35:29 <GregorR> *the camera fades in and the viewer can see kipple's server in a hospital bed*
21:35:39 <GregorR> Doc ... is (s)he gonna live?
21:36:13 <kipple> not sure. last time he went down he was in a coma for a week, and then made a miraculous recovery
21:36:21 <GregorR> <kipple> It's too early to tell, but the cancer is severe. It's unlikely that (s)he will see his/her next birthday.
21:36:30 <GregorR> Darn, I was in the middle of writing your line when you said it X-D
21:37:14 <kipple> and it's a he, by the way
21:37:49 <kipple> I think I'll have to reinstall it
21:41:39 <GregorR> I was unaware of the fact that servers had genders, but couldn't use the word it since that would imply that it wasn't living.
21:46:52 <kipple> computers have names, and names are usually gender specific
21:47:03 <kipple> it is called slartibartfast
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04:02:48 * GregorR prepares mercilessly to release OBLISK 1.0.0 >:)
04:02:58 <GregorR> (unto an unsuspecting world)
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05:28:36 * GregorR is doing the finishing touches on OBLISK ( http://oblisk.codu.org/ ) 1.0.0
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08:59:27 <pgimeno> generic installer? *mumble mumble*
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13:54:28 <Keymaker> well, hopefully i won't collapse
14:13:10 <GregorR> What's this mumble-mumble-ing about OBLISK? Is that negative mumble-mumble-ing? Are you one of the hordes of nonbelievers? You know, while GNU/Linux distros vary, it's not by anywhere near as much as most people seem to imagine.
14:14:41 <GregorR> There are soooooooooooo many people with such negative opinions of it X-D
14:15:00 <GregorR> I used to make a FreeCiv OBLISK package but they absolutely refused to ever post it (without even testing it, mind you)
14:15:00 <Keymaker> although you probably should write some boring documentation ;)
14:15:31 <GregorR> Yeah, I guess somebody else might want to make an OBLISK package at some point in the future :-P
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16:31:40 <pgimeno> GregorR: well, distros are the solution to library hell (currently actually known as DLL hell because it's an issue mainly with shared Windows libraries) - "generic" packages make sense only if all of the libraries (including libc) are contained in the package.
16:40:31 <GregorR> And the assumption is of course that I didn't realize this and compensate.
16:41:07 <GregorR> Libraries are NOT contained in the package, but are checked for on first run and downloaded if necessary. They are then installed into the package, so as to not clutter the rest of the system.
16:42:52 <pgimeno> at the time I saw it I couldn't ask
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09:21:59 <CXI> funny story, actually - I edit wikipedia and I saw an entry on 2L, and went googling to see whether it actually existed or was just someone's project
09:23:10 <CXI> well, generally if it has any presence outside wikipedia it's a real topic
09:23:32 <CXI> but that really depends on the people in question and what they consider a presence
09:24:25 <CXI> I find it hard to decide sometimes... 2L looked kind of interesting so I figured it'd be better to leave it there
09:24:48 <pgimeno> well, we've discussed about the presence of esoteric languages in there
09:25:31 <CXI> there are so many languages that can be described as "bf with huffman encoding, bf with a lookup table, bf with a lookup table and amusing names, bf with forking, bf with socket support, bf with a second buffer"
09:26:10 <pgimeno> we're all for maintaining them but mainly because that's a way that they don't get lost in time; we agree that that's not the correct place
09:26:23 <CXI> yeah, it's a tough choice
09:26:56 <pgimeno> the author of the 2L language is GregorR, but I think he's asleep right now
09:27:12 <CXI> yeah, I actually joined here because I read about it
09:27:19 <pgimeno> as for web presence: http://eso.codu.org/
09:27:19 <CXI> the log, I mean
09:28:52 <CXI> http://www.befunge.org/fyb/ork/exa/fibonacci.ork <--- haha, I like that
09:29:05 <pgimeno> yes, ORK is an amazing language
09:30:00 <pgimeno> after properly examined, 2L does not contribute so much as ORK to the esoteric languages world
09:30:32 <pgimeno> it's a 2D language and there are 2D languages; it's a BF variation and there are lots of BF variations
09:30:32 <CXI> and funnily enough there's no wikipedia article on ork
09:30:49 <pgimeno> I know, it's more recent and it's not finished
09:30:49 <CXI> PATH/SNUSP etc
09:31:12 <CXI> the canonical 2d BFs
09:32:00 <pgimeno> furthermore, it attempts to be extremely minimalistic and there are more extremely minimalistic ones
09:33:30 <pgimeno> well, we're making some efforts towards finding a place where esolangs can be preserved
09:34:50 <CXI> not sure if it's any help, but wikimedia has a project called wikicities
09:35:17 <pgimeno> I think it's at the very least very good news :)
09:35:58 <pgimeno> I'll visit wikicities to see if that fits our purpose
09:37:03 <pgimeno> could you please give a link? I'm not familiarized with how wikimedia is structured
09:38:10 <CXI> sorry - was off eating pretzels
09:38:40 <CXI> only for presidents
09:40:50 <pgimeno> could you give a very quick primer about the policies of wikicities, before I read everything thoroughly? is the content to be FDL-licensed?
09:41:52 <CXI> basically it just says "it needs to be free and open - free license, freely editable, run as a community project"
09:42:36 <pgimeno> about everything related to esolangs fits that
09:42:59 <lament> it would be so awesome to gather everything in one place
09:43:40 <pgimeno> hm, in a quick glance I see it's ad-supported
09:46:08 <CXI> *nod* google ads
09:46:21 <pgimeno> "Wikicities will never host pop-up adverts." - sounds reasonable
10:48:54 -!- CXI has changed nick to CXI-gonJinn.
10:51:09 -!- CXI-gonJinn has changed nick to CXI.
10:56:12 <CXI> (also means you can copy/paste all wikipedia's information on esolangs)
10:58:37 <pgimeno> what about files? is it possible to host files?
11:04:55 <pgimeno> "Wikis must have a large potential audience, and be likely to attract enough editors to maintain the wiki over a long period of time. Personal wikis, wikis for small groups, or individual schools are not generally permitted."
11:05:34 <CXI> all that's trying to do is discourage wikis for small clubs
11:05:43 <pgimeno> I'm not sure we'll gather enough editors... the esolang community is not very wide
11:06:23 <CXI> I'm sure when they see it they'll say "fantastic! somewhere for all the esolang stuff on wikipedia to go!"
11:07:50 <pgimeno> yeah, but maintaining it is another issue
11:08:39 <CXI> *shrug* well they'll either say yes or no - my guess is yes
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12:20:48 <kipple> hmm. this wikicity concept looks promising
13:41:55 <CXI> it's strange, actually, it's never really had any exposure
13:43:03 <CXI> I suppose they're assuming it will just gain popularity through word of mouth
13:43:26 <kipple> possibly. Who's behind it? is it associated with wikipedia?
13:43:38 <CXI> basicaly it's just a wikimedia project
13:44:06 <CXI> (except because wikimedia is non-profit and this is an ad-supported service they rolled out another essentially identical company for it)
13:45:17 <kipple> the question is: what happens if it doesn't pay off? does it get closed down...
13:46:14 <CXI> well, depends what you mean by "pay off", considering it's probably a thousandth the size of english wikipedia, keeping it running is trivial
13:46:46 <kipple> yeah. and if it grows, it will pay off, hopefullly...
13:46:52 <CXI> *nod* exactly
13:47:05 <CXI> mainly I don't even really think paying off is what it's about
13:47:11 <CXI> one of the big issues in wikipedia is scope
13:47:52 <CXI> there are sort-of factions, one extreme is that wikipedia isn't a paper encyclopedia, and consequently we may as well try to gather *all* information
13:48:41 <CXI> and the other extreme says that wikipedia shouldn't accept articles from any topics that aren't considered 'encyclopedic'
13:48:48 <CXI> s/from/on/, sorry
13:49:02 <CXI> so, like, no articles on schools, or towns
13:49:32 <CXI> in reality most people lie somewhere in between, but it's a tough call because most of us hate throwing away information if it looks like it might be useful
13:50:26 <kipple> there have been some problems with people deleting esoteric programming articles already
13:52:03 <CXI> well, 'problem' depends on your perspective
13:52:18 <CXI> I actually think a lot of the esolangs don't belong there
13:52:46 <CXI> I think I mentioned somewhere above that there are about 10 of them that are just "BF + neat feature" or "BF - neat feature" and don't actually exist at all except for their wikipedia entry
13:53:38 <CXI> but that's the encyclopedia me talking
13:53:59 <CXI> the "all information is sacred" me wants to put all those useless languages somewhere just in case someone is interested someday
13:56:42 <kipple> I'm all for starting a wikicity.
13:58:03 <kipple> however, then we could get the problem that some people use the wikipedia, and some use the city
13:58:37 <pgimeno> I'm actually for giving the alternatives in the list and see what's the general opinion
13:59:00 <kipple> you mean the mailing list?
13:59:03 <CXI> well, in reality anything written in the wikipedia can just be copy/pasted over
13:59:05 <CXI> and vice versa
13:59:17 <kipple> yeah, but that takes a lot of work
13:59:21 <pgimeno> I'm not concerned about the wikipedia vs city; once the city is up, the languages don't need to be in the wikipedia
13:59:39 <kipple> the most important ones should, IMHO
13:59:47 <CXI> but you're right, it'd be tough drawing a line and saying "if your language is this popular put it in wikipedia, otherwise the city"
14:00:14 <kipple> I'd say if the language is yours, then put it in the city
14:00:31 <CXI> actually, yeah, that sounds like a good rule
14:00:32 <kipple> if it is BF, INTERCAL or BeFunge then it can stay
14:00:34 <pgimeno> there are a few that are universally accepted, like brainfuck and intercal
14:01:19 <pgimeno> hm, whitespace is more like a humorous language
14:01:32 <pgimeno> Unlambda suits there better
14:01:34 <kipple> yes, but it is one of the more known
14:01:40 <CXI> whitespace is pretty well known
14:01:48 <kipple> because of the slashdot thing
14:02:02 <CXI> a lot of the articles on popular languages aren't really under contention
14:02:11 <CXI> it's just things like 2L that are worrying
14:02:20 <CXI> when someone posts their new idea for a language on wikipedia
14:03:16 <kipple> and I agree, it's not the best solution
14:06:24 <kipple> but the way it is now, I think it is the right way to do it. It's not like 2L is less interesting than most of the other esolangs in wikipedia
14:06:41 <CXI> well, the problem is that it's less notable
14:07:07 <CXI> wikipedia isn't really the place to put new ideas, it's a repository for things that already exist
14:07:29 <CXI> (which is to say, that's the viewpoint of most of the other editors, and that's why a new esolang article is likely to be deleted)
14:07:39 <kipple> so, how long does it have to have existed before it can be put there?
14:08:16 <CXI> it's not really a time thing - notability's a pretty ephemeral concept
14:08:50 <pgimeno> well, to me it's a question of whether people which see the language/article somewhere else are able to find a reference in the wikipedia
14:09:24 <CXI> a general guideline is that people shouldn't write articles about their own projects
14:10:39 <pgimeno> I didn't know about the popularity of Whitespace; before I knew, I thought that it wasn't worth the inclusion
14:10:52 <pgimeno> but if many people expect to find it, that's a change
14:11:17 <pgimeno> that's my point of view, of course
14:12:27 <kipple> Whitespace became quite known last year, so it's kind of a piece of internet history
14:13:12 <pgimeno> well, that's what makes the difference somehow
14:13:56 <kipple> The main esolang article lists the following as "notable": Befunge, Brainfuck, False, INTERCAL, Malbolge, Shakespeare, Unlambda and Whitespace
14:14:21 <kipple> not sure about false and shakespeare, but the rest I agree with
14:15:27 <pgimeno> I agree with you; I don't know about False and Shakespeare either
14:15:50 <pgimeno> I'd perhaps include Thue because of its innovative paradigm but that's probably me
14:16:02 <CXI> I've heard of both but can't actually remember what False does
14:17:27 <pgimeno> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_programming_language
14:17:43 <pgimeno> probably the most notable thing about it is that it inspired some others (it's from 1993)
14:19:07 <kipple> Var'aq is probably also worth keeping in the pedia
14:21:19 <kipple> though it doesn't really fit in with the rest...
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18:51:09 <GregorR> Apparently I missed a very interesting conversation.
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21:33:07 <GregorR> Is that a new esoteric programming language?
21:33:18 <Keymaker> wait, i was just about to write :)
21:34:03 <Keymaker> languages that definitely should stay in wikipedia, are in my opinion the following: brainfuck, befunge, thue, malbolge, unlambda
21:34:15 <Keymaker> but i prefer it they all stay there
21:34:24 <Keymaker> oh, and naturally kipple as well :)
21:35:50 <pgimeno> I agree with all you mention (I miss Intercal)
21:36:15 <GregorR> What program should I OBLISK-ize for the proletization of OBLISK today :P
21:39:42 <Keymaker> some global notice tells that there's going to be a major downtime in about 11 hours
21:40:16 <pgimeno> a previous wallop told that it's going to be about 15 mins long
21:40:54 * Keymaker goes to break in the nearest store, takes all the food that can carry, goes to bomb shelter, puts on the gas mask.
21:42:14 <Keymaker> i have a feeling that most of people won't even notice the major downtime.. ;)
21:42:46 <GregorR> I'll be committing ritualistic suicide.
21:42:58 <GregorR> Then reviving myself by magic.
21:44:28 <GregorR> Zero-with-a-line-through-it-like-I-draw-it?
21:45:17 <pgimeno> isn't it a norwegian character?
21:46:29 <Keymaker> for once a detailed esoteric language manual..
21:48:48 <GregorR> Mayhaps their should be an ORK page on Wikipedia.
21:49:13 <Keymaker> i don't understand it so i can't do it :p
21:52:57 <pgimeno> hum, the false doc is a txt file, the encoding might be CP-437 instead of ISO-8859
21:54:03 <pgimeno> oh, being for Amiga I think it's ISO
22:06:14 <Keymaker> i'm trying to invent some esolang. again.
22:10:26 <calamari> pgimeno: I'm more than happy to permanently host http://esowiki.kidsquid.com/
22:11:37 <calamari> kidsquid.com is my domain, so even if I change shell providers (unlikely), the name can be permanent. If you'd like a different name than esowiki, I can easily change it
22:12:43 <calamari> was there a different reason that you were looking into wikicities?
22:33:32 <pgimeno> calamari, I'm going to make a list of the options in the list with the pros and cons
22:35:30 <pgimeno> yours is one, Wikicities is another and http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page is another
22:36:03 <pgimeno> (the latter was apparently mentioned in the list before I joined it)
22:36:55 <pgimeno> and I'd also include for consideration a non-wiki web (a wiki needs a maintainer which at the very least can deal with vandalism)
22:37:33 <pgimeno> are you subscribed to the mailing list?
22:37:46 <calamari> I'm subscribed to lang and misc
22:38:24 <pgimeno> lang is the one I'm subscribed to
22:38:48 <calamari> pgimeno: wiki vandalism is easy to control because any change can be reverted
22:39:35 <Keymaker> and i need to go to sleep, i'm tired already
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22:47:26 <calamari_> even better than my site would be esoteric.sange.fi, if he's willing
22:47:48 <calamari_> he's already been running the bf repository for years
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00:50:12 <kipple> calamari: there is a problem with a site that is hosted by one person (like yourself)
00:50:37 <kipple> if you get run over by a bus, or stops updating for some reason, the site is lost
00:51:06 <kipple> that's where wikipedia and wikicities are (hopefully) more safe
00:51:56 <calamari_> wikipedia is bad, because we're breaking the rules there (no original research)
00:52:10 <kipple> yes. hence wikicities may be a good alternative
00:53:41 <calamari_> unless advertising runs out, then *poof* it's gone :)
00:54:09 <kipple> but it doesn't look like those independent wiki's manage to get much content
00:55:14 <calamari_> I mostly offered because it seemed like there was a lot of talk but no actiob
00:55:27 <kipple> yes. and it is a good offer
00:56:26 <kipple> we should go with what most people prefer (if we can get people to say that)
00:56:58 <calamari_> what about esoeric.sange.fi? That'd get my vote.. I wish I could remember the guys name
00:57:10 <calamari_> he's been running the bf archive for ages
00:57:35 <calamari_> and it's his own machine.. so it's not likely to be taken down
00:57:57 <GregorR> Unless Esoteric programming is deemed illegal and army troopers storm his home and destroy it.
00:58:03 <kipple> same as with yours: dependent on one person
00:58:14 <calamari_> I'd trust him over wikicities, to be honest
00:58:27 <calamari_> I've never even heard of wikicities before
00:58:30 <GregorR> It's even older than wikipedia, yes?
00:58:37 <kipple> maybe we could come up with a mirroring system of our own wiki
00:59:09 <calamari_> mirroring sounds good.. there has to be a way,.. there are hundreds of wikipedia ripoff sites out there
00:59:49 <calamari_> probably some Java program that crawls the wiki and grabs the sources
01:00:00 <kipple> if we could have two or three mirrors of the same wiki we should be safe
01:01:00 <kipple> ideally, they should be synchronized so that you could update in any one, at it would get propagated... not sure if such software exist
01:01:31 <calamari_> I think the best we could hope for are daily or maybe hourly automated updates
01:02:14 <kipple> as for the discussion earlier about the character, yes it is norwegian/danish.
01:02:15 <calamari_> I think if everyone used the same software setup, it could be a fairly simple job of archiving a directory and sending it out
01:02:32 <kipple> it is a vowel pronounced as in duh or burn
01:02:43 * GregorR considers writing something.
01:03:22 <calamari_> kipple: I think the mirroring idea is the best yet
01:03:23 <GregorR> What wiki software is it based on?
01:03:39 <calamari_> GregorR: MoinMoin seems like a winner, to me
01:03:41 <GregorR> There's no reason who an edit couldn't prompt a cascade with the proper modifications.
01:03:42 <kipple> I would prefer the one wikipedia uses
01:03:58 <GregorR> What formats to they store in?
01:04:13 <calamari_> MoinMoin doesn't require a database.. which is nice
01:04:30 * GregorR begins leaning toward MoinMoin ;)
01:04:54 <GregorR> If there was just an ssh server on the required boxes, files could be scp'd in on edit.
01:05:03 <GregorR> Updates would cascade instantly.
01:05:07 <kipple> I dislike the wikis that can't have spaces in the links. but maybe that's just me
01:06:46 <GregorR> I'm going to make some modifications to MoinMoin and see what I come up with.
01:09:45 <calamari_> well, you're right.. the link dont have spaces, but the user doesn't know
01:10:52 <kipple> if MoinMoin is just flat files, it should be easy to sync, I think
01:11:01 <calamari_> GregorR: I tried one of those simple ones and it performed very badly.. php wiki or something.. remember that one?
01:11:20 <GregorR> Wiki! is flat-file, simple, nice in my opinion.
01:11:28 <GregorR> Not a very good home page :P
01:11:45 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/odikeh/
01:11:52 <GregorR> It's very non-intrusive, there's a list of links at the bottom.
01:12:18 <GregorR> That one requires logins, actually.
01:12:28 <GregorR> But it can be set either way.
01:14:16 <GregorR> One could apply their own template.
01:14:36 <calamari_> kipple: just looked because I was curious about MoinMoin.. it stores the pages in a directory tree
01:14:37 <GregorR> By modifying the code to their liking.
01:15:02 <calamari_> so it'd be a simple tar and send operation
01:15:57 <kipple> isn't thats what rsync is for?
01:16:03 <GregorR> It wouldn't be good to tar the enti---I was about to say that X-D
01:16:36 <calamari_> never heard of it :) checks man rsync
01:18:19 <kipple> the problem is if the two wikis are both updated differently. Then you would lose the changes in one when you sync. Is there an easy way to fix that?
01:18:52 <kipple> one solution is, of course to just have one that can be edited, and use the rest as pure backups
01:20:28 <calamari_> stupid question time.. how does rysn connect without a password?
01:21:28 <GregorR> If the "I'm-being-edited" cookie was stored in a file.
01:21:38 <GregorR> calamari_: Rsync can go via SSH
01:22:25 <GregorR> Oh, "Wiki!" is even more templatable than I thought.
01:22:26 <calamari_> there is rsync -u .. update only.. do not overwirte newer files
01:22:41 <GregorR> It has a template.html page that has $title, $node and $bar. Just put those in and it works with any template.
01:22:47 <kipple> but that would leave the two different
01:23:17 <calamari_> hrm actually, that'll never work.. clocks are always different
01:26:10 <calamari_> kipple: what if when on a mirror they click edit, it actually redirects to the "main" site and edits there instead?
01:26:36 <kipple> but then, why not redirect to the main site the moment you enter the mirror
01:26:48 <calamari_> because if the main site goes down you lose the content
01:27:04 <calamari_> this way, you'd just lose the ability to edit
01:27:05 <GregorR> calamari_: I like your idea - edit redirecting that is.
01:27:09 <kipple> not if it is mirrored every hours or so
01:27:17 <GregorR> We need to update instantly.
01:28:12 <kipple> how about htis: if you edit a mirror, it is also submitted immediately to the main site
01:29:11 <GregorR> OK, so, remote sites have cron jobs to download every hour, and when a page is edited it is always uploaded to the main site, yes?
01:29:27 <kipple> I think that could work
01:29:51 <kipple> but there are of course some locking issues
01:29:59 <GregorR> Most wikis don't lock anyway *shrugs*
01:30:23 <GregorR> If we saved a revision history, things could be restored.
01:31:00 <kipple> gotta grab some food. brb
01:35:32 <GregorR> OK, here's my thoughts ...
01:35:48 <GregorR> The main wiki has a list of subwikis,
01:35:54 <GregorR> The subwikis know what the main wiki is...
01:35:59 <GregorR> So the subwikis all have a cron job,
01:36:20 <GregorR> Plus a setuid-whoever program that sends a file UP to the main wiki.
01:36:30 <GregorR> The Wiki software just acts like normal,
01:36:41 <GregorR> But upon an edit, calls that setuid-whoever program.
01:37:08 <GregorR> Of course, everybody would have to know the main wiki's SSH public key
01:37:39 <calamari_> not a problem.. we could have an information wiki page on how to add a new node to the wiki
01:37:39 <GregorR> The main wiki would have to know everybody's public keys.
01:37:56 <GregorR> Even that could be automated, really.
01:38:12 <GregorR> I guess since it's a wiki, it's irrelevant.
01:38:48 <GregorR> Anybody mind giving me an account somewhere so I can set something up as a test?
01:39:12 <kipple> my web server is nor functional currently :(
01:39:37 <calamari_> GregorR: I'm using a shell provider.. sorry
01:39:45 <calamari_> I could set you up on my local box
01:39:45 <kipple> if you want an account it is....
01:39:45 <GregorR> Oh, btw, I have another retort on Python: While most web servers support PHP, most do not support Python ;)
01:40:06 <GregorR> I just need an ssh account somewhere.
01:40:16 <GregorR> I don't even really need web access.
01:40:24 <GregorR> I just don't have a spare box lying around.
01:42:00 <calamari_> GregorR: that's good, because my connection cuts out every 4 hours :)
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01:59:22 <kipple> so, what's your take on this wiki business?
01:59:28 <pgimeno> I personally like the MoinMoin idea
01:59:52 * GregorR sits in his corner, alone as the only supporter of "Wiki!"
02:02:35 <pgimeno> I don't like the idea of sending an edit to another server
02:02:53 <pgimeno> I prefer a main server and non-editable mirrors
02:03:06 <kipple> yeah, I think I do as well
02:03:15 <GregorR> If that's agreed, then I'm done X-D
02:03:23 <GregorR> An rsync every hour and that's it.
02:03:34 <kipple> perhaps not that often
02:03:44 <GregorR> Anyway, I've got to go eat home-made chicken soup. It's a terrible life. Bye 8-D
02:03:51 <pgimeno> once or twice a day would be enough
02:04:08 <kipple> that could be left to each mirrorer to decide
02:04:37 <kipple> I'd say once a day is more than enough
02:05:03 <pgimeno> the mirror should be able to be switched to a main server, just for the case the main one fails
02:06:51 <pgimeno> a notification in the ML may be enough for the mirrors to start mirroring another server
02:07:14 <kipple> that could be done manually. it's not something that should happen often
02:11:09 <kipple> the list has been pretty dead recently though
02:11:29 <pgimeno> lack of traffic does not imply lack of people (I hope)
02:11:54 <pgimeno> the IRC was apparently also quite dead until GregorR and I joined
02:12:18 <kipple> possibly. I pretty new here myself
02:13:14 <pgimeno> that's the impression I got from Keymaker's words
02:13:58 <kipple> well, it does look like the four of us do most of the talking here nowadays...
02:14:46 <cpressey> don't think that just because i don't talk much, that i'm not actively lurking :)
02:15:19 <pgimeno> I wanted to ask you about two things
02:15:42 <pgimeno> one is OOPS, any reference apart from the mention in your old page? Google didn't help
02:16:31 <cpressey> ? ... hmm. no. i think it was briefly sketched in a message to the (old) mailing list. but iirc it was not a fully formed idea
02:16:42 <cpressey> i don't remember whose idea it was, either
02:17:04 <cpressey> iirc the objective was an object-oriented tarpit...
02:17:11 <pgimeno> the other is rube2; the wayback machine doesn't hold the archive and all I was able to get was a version for Atari ST
02:17:39 <pgimeno> rube is an idea of yours, right?
02:17:44 <cpressey> that's interesting... i still have it somewhere, i guess i didn't put it back on my site after i recovered it from that disk crash
02:18:06 <cpressey> the original RUBE was mine, yes.... RUBE II was john c's slight change + implementation
02:18:20 <pgimeno> that was my impression, thanks
02:18:31 <pgimeno> so are you going to put it back online?
02:18:31 <cpressey> (the original had a really _awful_ implementation... rube ii's code is much better)
02:18:40 <cpressey> i can see if i can dig it out, but it might take a while
02:18:59 <cpressey> i should also maybe put illgol back up :)
02:19:11 <pgimeno> and thank you for initiating me in this esoteric world! :)
02:19:58 <cpressey> yes, to reach the next level, you must stay locked in a mailbox overnight while we all sing sea shanties at you.
02:20:31 <cpressey> then you get a nifty apron and... oh, no! i've already said too much!
02:21:43 <cpressey> i pretty much agree that wikipedia shouldn't be playing host to each and every esolang.
02:21:53 <cpressey> but i don't know where to draw the line either.
02:22:10 <cpressey> as for having a "satellite"... i'm not convinced that a wiki is the best tool for the job...
02:22:19 <cpressey> there used to be something called the Esoteric Language Database
02:22:30 <cpressey> which was renamed to the Stupid Languages Database
02:22:40 <kipple> yes, but why not use a wiki for it?
02:22:44 <pgimeno> encyclopedia of stipid languages? yes it's gone
02:23:00 <kipple> it is important that it is easy for several people to edit
02:23:01 <cpressey> well, why not use a "forge" for it, like luaforge or rubyforge?
02:23:13 <cpressey> the wiki aspect is useful, yes
02:23:21 <cpressey> but these are also (generally speaking) projects
02:23:41 <cpressey> it would be sweet if there was a tool that combined both
02:23:49 <cpressey> in fact i think there is, but i forget what it's called
02:24:17 <pgimeno> I was also considering Subversion; the problem is that the editor has to modify the HTML code directly, no quick-and-easy markup
02:24:27 <cpressey> i'm not sure if i'd use it, but i thought i'd toss the idea out there
02:24:53 <pgimeno> I don't know if that "forge" thing is similar to a version control system
02:25:22 <cpressey> plus, the problem (i guess) if you have publically changeable code, is that it's very easy to slip in exploits unnoticed
02:25:46 <cpressey> yeah, the "forge" software, whatever it is, is like sourceforge's site. i think it can use cvs or svn for version control
02:26:08 <cpressey> but it is more project-oriented than reference-oriented.
02:26:25 <kipple> personally, it is the reference part I'm most interested in
02:28:43 <pgimeno> I don't get what you mean by reference here
02:29:11 <cpressey> well, "looking things up" is what i meant by it :)
02:30:39 <pgimeno> the idea is not like cooperative project development; it's more like hosting each personal project's description and files, pretty much like what cat's eye is currently hosting
02:31:57 <pgimeno> as long as a wiki is able to host files, I think it's good enough
02:33:16 <cpressey> fwiw, apparently this is what i was thinking of --> http://projects.edgewall.com/trac/
02:35:44 <cpressey> at any rate, i'm not pushing the idea. any sort of resource would be great, obviously.
02:36:04 <cpressey> the main problem is long-term reliability :)
02:36:12 <pgimeno> pretty interesting for community development, indeed
02:36:56 <cpressey> hm, so maybe the mirroring is an important feature...
02:37:26 <pgimeno> yes, that's the whole point of mirroring
02:44:15 <pgimeno> kipple: is rune.krokodille.com yours?
02:47:51 <kipple> your welcome. Why, btw?
02:49:06 <pgimeno> I followed the link from the wikipedia and it failed, I just wanted to be sure it was your site to get an idea on how it would work again (about a week, you said a few days ago)
02:49:24 <kipple> ah well. not so sure now.
02:49:53 <kipple> the root partition seems to have lost some files. can't boot.
02:50:04 <kipple> don't know how much else is lost
02:50:15 <kipple> maybe I'll have time to look into it next week
02:50:35 <kipple> I'm not a linux expert, so it may take some time
02:51:52 <cpressey> from a brief googling, it doesn't look like there is any ready-made solution for a synchronized multi-host wiki. there's some discussion of mirroring wiki content (one-way), but that's not nearly as useful...
02:53:46 <pgimeno> cpressey: regular non-editable mirrors sound OK to me
02:54:06 <kipple> yeah. the mirrors doesn't have to be editable
02:54:32 <kipple> anyway, it's 4am here. Good night :)
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02:58:01 <cpressey> the thing is, if the person running the editable wiki decides to stop (for whatever reason)... well, as long as there's a way to choose which of the mirrors gets to be the "next" editable one, i suppose that works
02:58:20 <cpressey> and all the other mirrors update to mirror from it
02:59:45 <cpressey> anyway, i have to eat now :) ttyl (and i'll try to get rube ii up this evening)
03:00:36 <pgimeno> bon appetit and thank you very much
03:01:03 <pgimeno> I'm going to sleep as well (I'm on the same time zone as kipple)
03:48:38 <cpressey> ok, i put both rube & rube ii back online --> http://catseye.webhop.net/projects/rube/
03:58:30 * GregorR goes to play "The Incredible Machine" :P
03:58:50 * cpressey should probably work in curses support.... someday......
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04:39:51 <CXI> moin moin's a bit icky to work with - one of my uni courses uses it for notes
04:48:37 <CXI> incidentally, see http://www.wikicities.com/wiki/Database_download for info about backups (it'd be about as complicated as wget and a cron job)
05:26:25 <GregorR> Using wget would cause a massive redownload every backup, no?
05:31:06 <CXI> not terribly massive - just the curr table
05:31:16 <CXI> (as in, current versions of every page, not the whole history)
05:31:32 <CXI> but it's not incremental, if that's what you mean
05:32:56 <CXI> though a diff-based update would be kinda nice
05:33:55 <GregorR> But lemme take a look at that page.
05:34:48 <GregorR> I've got it all set up for "Wiki!"
05:34:52 <GregorR> But, nobody likes "Wiki!" so :P
07:43:55 <GregorR> Gregor's customized version of "Wiki!" supports guest posting and file uploads, and titles with spaces in them (which was supported anyway)
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08:06:42 <GregorR> Where's the big explosion?
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12:57:55 <pgimeno> <GregorR> But, nobody likes "Wiki!" so :P
13:00:46 <pgimeno> GregorR: from my point of view, the question is not to like or not to like; just MoinMoin is already set up and running in calamari's server, and if there's a compelling reason to make the effort of changing I'm for it
13:01:22 <pgimeno> <cpressey> ok, i put both rube & rube ii back online --> http://catseye.webhop.net/projects/rube/
13:01:52 <pgimeno> thank you very much, cpressey!
13:09:41 <pgimeno> you know, I thought that the name came instead from Sierra's Space Quest II adventure where there's a toy called Cubix Rube
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14:01:55 <pgimeno> hm, this rube2 thing is much harder to get working than rube
15:19:07 <kipple> does MoinMoin only save the last two revisions? When I click show changes in the EsoWiki, only the last two are available...
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16:35:08 <pgimeno> kipple: click on "Get Info"
18:54:41 <GregorR> So, how much information are we supposed to put on the Wiki? I suppose the full spec and everything, so that if eso.codu.org (as an example) fell out of existance, it would be there?
19:09:11 <GregorR> Hmm ... how do you make MoinMoin show 2L code without trying to be all wiki-i with it...
19:13:28 <kipple> don't know. I assume it has some tags for such things
19:15:49 <kipple> have you tried {{{ }}} ?
19:16:27 <GregorR> I figured that out after a bit.
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21:57:26 <GregorR-L> Why is my alter ego joining magically? :P
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22:22:22 <kipple> do you have another machine that's logged in?
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04:54:36 <Keymaker> i gotta try that language soon
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20:33:55 <GregorR-L> Not turing complete I assume, since it's not exactly ... well ... that.
20:36:30 <kipple> how much would it take to make it turing complete, I wonder... :)
20:36:57 <GregorR-L> Well, it would have to have a concept of numbers :p
20:37:34 <pgimeno> that's what a fractal language could look like
20:39:00 <pgimeno> GregorR-L: I'm writing the message for the ML about the servers; could you please repeat what are your changes to Wiki!?
20:39:59 <pgimeno> I got confused by what did you change and what was already supported
20:40:15 <kipple> so, what are the alternatives you have so far?
20:40:16 <GregorR-L> I just secured the logins a bit more and added an uploads dialog.
20:41:27 <GregorR-L> But since even I've started posting stuff to the MoinMoin wiki, it's pretty irrelevent :P
20:41:59 <pgimeno> hm, so do I delete that part from consideration?
20:43:14 <pgimeno> maybe the final decision involves a different approach
20:43:19 <GregorR-L> Unless anybody can see any advantages to it over MoinMoin.
20:43:27 <kipple> does the MoinMoin wiki support file uploads? (like binaries, archives and pdfs)
20:43:30 <pgimeno> kipple: the alternatives are static content and wiki; within wiki, the three ones already running, namely Wikicities, calamari's and the voxelwhatever
20:43:59 <GregorR-L> If it doesn't, there's a big point for "Wiki!" :P
20:44:18 <pgimeno> calamari's is MoinMoin; the voxelXXXX seems to be phpwiki
20:44:24 <GregorR-L> MoinMoin is python, and many servers don't support Python.
20:44:39 <pgimeno> yeah, that's the big con against MoinMoin
20:44:39 <GregorR-L> So it would be more difficult to get true mirrors.
20:44:50 <kipple> WikiMedia is my personal preference
20:45:03 <pgimeno> Wikicities is not a Wikimedia project
20:45:18 <GregorR-L> Flat files are nicer for cross-site distribution.
20:45:36 <kipple> it's easy to distribute an sql-dump
20:46:03 <GregorR-L> It's the same issue as with MoinMoin though - the more basic it is the more mirrors are likely.
20:46:27 <pgimeno> from http://www.wikicities.com/wiki/What_Wikicities_is_not : "[Wikicities is not] a Wikimedia project"
20:46:53 <pgimeno> yeah, I didn't want to take it out
20:47:14 <kipple> I meant: I prefer MediaWiki (not to be confused with WikiMedia) :)
20:47:23 <pgimeno> in any case it looks a LOT like Wikipedia
20:47:35 <kipple> Wikipedia and Wikicities both use MediaWiki
20:48:42 <kipple> I have yet to see a wiki that looks as good as MediaWiki
20:48:48 <pgimeno> I'm not very confident about a MySQL database either
20:48:59 <pgimeno> yeah, the look is pretty good
20:49:06 <GregorR-L> (Wiki! is templatable through a template.html file, so it can look exactly like MediaWiki if you want)
20:49:39 <kipple> it's just the ones I've seen so far has looked very good
20:49:47 <pgimeno> maybe voxelperfect's is a MediaWiki?
20:49:49 <GregorR-L> The big draw-back of Wiki! for the record is that it uses HTML, rather than a convenient Wikiscript.
20:50:11 <pgimeno> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ (for reference)
20:50:29 <pgimeno> oops, doesn't it use custom markup?
20:50:46 <GregorR-L> Which I think is nice, but that is clearly just me.
20:51:04 <pgimeno> does user's text go straight to the page?
20:51:18 <GregorR-L> Yup - though of course wiki links use [blah]
20:51:32 <GregorR-L> That's the only non-HTML-ism it has.
20:51:33 <kipple> voxelperfect seems to be mediawiki
20:52:06 <pgimeno> oh, then it's not straight HTML, it looks similar to phpBB or even MediaWiki
20:52:31 <GregorR-L> Well, MediaWiki has convenient wikiisms, no?
20:52:33 <pgimeno> I bet it won't allow certain tags and will impose restrictions on others
20:52:59 <pgimeno> it has its own markup if that's what you ask
20:53:33 <pgimeno> it may be more restricted but anyway I think it's OK
20:54:06 <GregorR-L> I personally prefer pure HTML to Wiki syntaxes, but like I said, I'm sure that's just me.
20:54:26 <pgimeno> well, I think that asking for HTML tags for special contents is not asking too much in a community of people used to code in weird languages
20:55:15 <kipple> agreed. but I think you'll get a more unified look if you don't use HTML
20:55:32 <kipple> but maybe that's not important
20:55:46 <pgimeno> actually, the style sheet should deal with things that structure the page like <h2>, <pre> etc.
20:56:07 <kipple> a good thing with HTML is that one can take a web page and paste it directly into the wiki
20:56:47 <kipple> there is a difference with what _should_ happen, and what will happen...
20:56:48 <pgimeno> I actually doubt it allows straight HTML; it will probably be a restricted HTML like in blogspot or phpBB
20:57:05 <pgimeno> (sorry if my fingers are a bit lagged)
20:58:12 <GregorR-L> When I said "Simple," I meant "simple" ;)
20:59:13 <pgimeno> well, then anonymous posting shouldn't be allowed
20:59:52 <GregorR-L> That's the only problem with it, so I'm putting it out there.
21:00:26 <pgimeno> hm, maybe I can work in a parser or something... (I'm quite busy with the rest of my projects though)
21:01:11 <pgimeno> could you please elaborate on the security-related changes?
21:01:23 <pgimeno> security is a concern to me as well
21:01:56 <GregorR-L> It used to use a cookie that just had your username, so anybody who could set the cookie could get a user account.
21:02:14 <GregorR-L> Now it uses the username and a hashed password, and the password is double-hashed on the far end.
21:02:24 <pgimeno> yuck, actually phpBB suffered that problem as well
21:04:09 <GregorR-L> Still not as secure as it could be.
21:04:17 <GregorR-L> And you just got me thinking about how I could secure it more :P
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21:05:18 <pgimeno> I'm preparing the message to the ML
21:05:40 <pgimeno> we're discussing about including Wiki! in the list
21:05:50 <pgimeno> in the list of wiki possibilities, that is
21:05:56 <kipple> if in doubt, include it
21:05:58 <GregorR-L> I hate its name so much I want to fork it and make my own X-D
21:06:32 <GregorR-L> I can call it GWiki and imply that it's GNU because of my first name ...
21:06:42 <GregorR-L> I could call it KWiki and imply that it's for KDE because of my middle name ...
21:07:34 <GregorR-L> I'm submitting this baby to Sourceforge >:)
21:07:50 <GregorR-L> That would be project #5 I think ...
21:07:55 <pgimeno> MoinMoin's main problem is Python
21:08:19 <GregorR-L> Many wikis are tied to a database, that's their problem.
21:08:20 <kipple> yes. otherwise it looks fine
21:08:57 <pgimeno> calamari: you said MoinMoin supports files, right?
21:10:18 <GregorR-L> To submit, or not to submit, that is the question. For is it nobler to have 5 under-supported projects or to ignore this desire and leave Giki behind?
21:10:48 <kipple> has anybody seen a spec of CDFG?
21:12:08 <pgimeno> GregorR-L: what about leaving it apart by now and take it again after you're done with a few projects?
21:12:56 <GregorR-L> Open Source Software projects never qualify as "done" really :P
21:13:46 <GregorR-L> PHPIM - RIP - It was curious, but totally worthless.
21:14:50 <pgimeno> the most esoteric thing I've done in PHP so far is an astrologic calculator
21:15:01 <GregorR-L> I think that's more esoteric than PHPIM ;)
21:15:34 <pgimeno> yeah, esoteric is a word that fits it pretty well :)
21:16:42 <pgimeno> (I'm not a believer in astrology, it was just to prove an astrologer that astrology doesn't work as he expected)
21:18:24 <GregorR-L> There's a "Check out PHPIM first-hand" link that still works there :P
21:19:07 <calamari> pgimeno: I don't remember talking about file uploads.. must've been someone else
21:19:39 <calamari> I thought we decided against MoinMoin because it was python
21:19:50 <GregorR-L> Well, no better one has really cropped up ;)
21:20:01 <calamari> if Moin! could be made to not look so dumb, I'd go for that
21:20:24 <GregorR-L> And it just has a template.html, so it's totally templatable.
21:20:32 <calamari> the boxes around links is just silly hehe
21:20:45 <calamari> try to make it look like wikipedia or moinmoin
21:20:58 <calamari> they both have nice interfaces
21:23:01 <pgimeno> calamari: so does moinmoin allow binary file uploading?
21:23:01 <GregorR-L> Hmm, Wikipedia foils Mozilla's save-page feature!
21:23:21 <calamari> pgimeno: no idea.. let me see :)
21:28:30 <GregorR-L> http://gregorr.homelinux.org/wiki/ < starting to look MediaWiki-ish
21:30:18 <GregorR-L> Well, I certainly am not saying that it's done ;)
21:30:25 <GregorR-L> I'm just showing you that it is indeed templatable.
21:30:51 <pgimeno> yeah, that's what I mean (please be patient with me, remember that English is not my first language)
21:31:09 <calamari> pgimeno: MoinMoin can do binary file uploading, but you must log in first
21:31:33 <pgimeno> no problem with that; I think that anonymous posts should be disallowed
21:32:15 <kipple> it's easier to get people to add content if they don't have to register. but for uploading it should be required!
21:32:53 * GregorR-L wonders why the ! was necessary after that sentence ;)
21:33:32 <kipple> because it is important!! ;)
21:34:04 <kipple> english is not my first language either....
21:34:11 <pgimeno> I'd be happy if we are enough registered editors as to maintain it; interested authors can see registration as a benefit in case they don't have a homepage
21:34:56 <pgimeno> I'm worried about spammers and vandals
21:35:44 <pgimeno> it should work as autonomously as possible without anyone's interaction
21:35:56 <kipple> I don't know how much of a problem that is. On wikipedia it happens, but this wiki will be pretty obscure
21:36:14 <calamari> here's how to do an upload.. kinda weird.. you put attachment:filename in the page, and then save the page, you'll then have a link to link which allows you to upload the file
21:36:17 <pgimeno> I think that most wikis suffer from spam
21:36:44 <kipple> then we should probably not allow anonymous editing
21:37:12 <calamari> pgimeno: a link.. dunno where "to a link" came from
21:37:14 <GregorR-L> Hmm, my Wiki! upload script forces the username before file name so you can't fake somebody elses files.
21:37:46 <pgimeno> calamari: it's enough by now to know that it's supported, thanks
21:37:48 <GregorR-L> Not sure why I started that sentence with "Hmm, "
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21:46:54 <GregorR-L> On further thought, there was no need for me to log out before walking downstairs.
21:49:16 <GregorR-L> Wiki! is so nice, but falls just short of its potential. Only a few minor changes are needed for it to be a really excellent SIMPLE Wiki.
21:50:39 <pgimeno> off-topic, GregorR-L: how many domains do you use?
21:51:55 <GregorR-L> www.codu.org is my low-powered home page, gregorr.homelinux.org is my home computer that I'm not even allowed to host on, www.imdirect.net is DirectNet's home page and www.reclaimidentity.com is a school project.
21:52:36 <GregorR-L> Oh, codu.t35.com was my old home page, but the host got all advertizy so I decided to get a for-pay one.
21:53:33 <pgimeno> you're not allowed to host on your home computer? eek
21:54:35 <pgimeno> what kind of connection is that?
21:55:14 <pgimeno> what speed? (just curious)
21:55:48 <GregorR-L> Something I should know off the top of my head ...
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22:09:31 <pgimeno> the artist behind cfdg is you, right?
22:11:54 <pgimeno> in that case thanks for the link, it looks very pretty :)
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22:13:56 <pgimeno> btw, is there someone here who is NOT in the 'lang' ML?
22:14:29 <pgimeno> it's for discussing the esolang preservation project
22:15:10 <pgimeno> the question is related to which of the three lists should the message be sent, as I'm just in 'lang'
22:15:58 <pgimeno> maybe I'm wrong and they are just two
22:16:21 <pgimeno> I somehow understood that there were three
22:18:28 <andreou> i thought you meant the lang 'ML', as in OcaML
22:18:42 <andreou> some of my addresses might still be
22:18:42 <pgimeno> oh, sorry, I meant ML as in mailing list
22:19:34 <pgimeno> you're welcome to participate if any of these addresses is :)
22:21:17 <kipple> WOW! I haven't seen this before: http://www.nada.kth.se/~matslina/awib/
22:23:45 <andreou> pgimeno what's the url for the list manager?
22:25:09 <kipple> andreou: you mean for the lang list?
22:25:43 <kipple> subscribe lang to listar@esoteric.sange.fi
22:26:16 <andreou> lang, sci and misc, right?
22:26:54 <kipple> don't know about sci and misc...
22:27:17 <pgimeno> misc was the other one, yeah
22:27:40 <pgimeno> but lang seems more appropriate
22:28:15 <pgimeno> I didn't know about sci either; the third one I meant was Friends of Brainfuck
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22:41:13 <pgimeno> may I make changes to the wiki to get a feeling of how it works?
22:41:44 <pgimeno> do I need to be registered?
22:42:12 <GregorR-L> I don't think so, lemme check the config.
22:42:51 <GregorR-L> [wiki links go in square brackets]
22:44:36 <pgimeno> what's the "track revision" checkbox? I thought that all revisions would be tracked
22:46:11 <GregorR-L> It just changes whether the revision is displayed on the page.
22:47:30 * GregorR-L is still working on the unnecessarily-secure password setup.
22:50:41 <pgimeno> it seems to track only the last three changes
22:53:12 <pgimeno> hehe, it messes up the JS code
22:53:47 <GregorR-L> The page only shows the last three changes.
22:54:00 <GregorR-L> That's just a display thing, it has nothing to do with its actual history.
22:58:18 <pgimeno> there's a potential problem with the markup, namely the conversion of < to < and > to > which some authors may forget (even in Micro$oft's pages I've seen code forgetting them)
22:58:31 <pgimeno> plus the usage of [] for code
22:58:56 <pgimeno> the latter can be avoided in the PHP code by skipping <pre> sections
22:59:54 <pgimeno> the former will probably happen also in the other wikis
23:02:58 <GregorR-L> The latter is simple to skip, no prob.
23:03:16 <GregorR-L> So long as I'm going in full-hog anyway :P
23:04:07 <pgimeno> MediaWiki allows HTML; probably MoinMoin does as well
23:05:01 <pgimeno> no big deal; just BF programmers will have to be careful when moving the data pointer around
23:08:05 <GregorR-L> New security measures are working.
23:08:35 <pgimeno> does it time out or something?
23:08:55 <GregorR-L> No, but I could make it do so when I think about it ...
23:09:07 <GregorR-L> I had it disappear when you logged out.
23:09:25 <pgimeno> a server-side timestamp, I suppose
23:09:38 <pgimeno> I always forget to log out :P
23:09:47 <GregorR-L> The local cookie times out, which forces a new key upon new login.
23:09:58 <pgimeno> oh, by the way, I think this will be a simple find-and-replace change: could you please make <br> add a \n at the end?
23:12:05 <pgimeno> the HTML code sticks everything in a single line, making browsing the source a bit awkward
23:12:31 <GregorR-L> OH, that's how it screws up javascript!
23:18:23 <pgimeno> well, the JS code suffers from <br> invasion
23:19:36 <pgimeno> on edit it converted the < to <
23:20:09 <GregorR-L> Ooh, seriously? That's bizarre ... I wonder why it did that ......
23:20:22 <GregorR-L> Hmmmmm, maybe something about textareas?
23:20:41 <pgimeno> no idea but yes I'm serious
23:22:59 <pgimeno> grr, there's a caveat with <br>\n: the <pre> sections are also broken by <br> so if instead of <br> there's <br>\n then two line breaks will be inserted
23:24:02 <pgimeno> the <pre> sections are also broken... --> within the <pre> sections lines are also broken...
23:32:35 <GregorR-L> Now it handles <pre>s beautifully :)
23:34:25 <GregorR-L> Now if only I could remember basic javascript ...
23:34:52 <GregorR-L> Document.out.println or something?
23:35:21 <pgimeno> document.write is what you look for?
23:35:50 <pgimeno> + "\n" if it has to end a line
23:36:39 <pgimeno> hum, maybe it's cached somewhere in between
23:36:51 <pgimeno> do you mean it no longer inserts <br>?
23:39:30 <pgimeno> the message to the list will not be ready tonight, sorry :(
23:39:53 <kipple> no problem. it's not that urgent...
23:43:37 <pgimeno> my main concern is the Wikipedia contents, maybe CXI can clarify something about when an action would be carried out
23:44:15 <kipple> is it about to be deleted?
23:47:09 <pgimeno> I suppose that it will deleted at some point except for the most relevant languages, but I don't know how close is that point
23:47:55 <pgimeno> apparently CXI joined here because of a need of dealing with that
23:52:56 <pgimeno> I recall having seen somewhere in Wikipedia a proposal for deletion of... was it 74 entries?
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23:55:01 <kipple> but wasn't that a long time ago, and voted down?
23:55:09 <kipple> or has it happened again?
23:57:51 <pgimeno> I'm not very up-to-date, sorry :)
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00:00:21 * kipple is backing up as much as possible before low-level formatting his server
00:02:05 <GregorR-L> pgimeno: If you're still up, give <pre> and <script> a shot.
00:05:36 <pgimeno> oh, found it, this quote's for kipple: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/misc/labyrinth.php?q=ba+ba+ba#quote
00:06:07 <pgimeno> I wrote a Labyrinth movie quoter
00:06:53 <pgimeno> there are so many real life aspects that remind me of moments in the movie...
00:13:52 <pgimeno> hehe, the previous formatting has been undone
00:16:12 <pgimeno> when editing, the line breaks have been lost
00:16:25 <pgimeno> it doesn't matter as long as it works well next time
00:18:33 <pgimeno> now if it does not convert entities it will be almost perfect
00:22:50 <pgimeno> I know, it's just that it's annoying to re-change them again and again on each edit
00:27:09 <pgimeno> yuck, too late for me, g'nite
00:33:50 <GregorR-L> Well, just fixed the entities problem :P
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00:46:07 <wooby> that cfdg program is incredible
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03:02:45 <CXI> for the record, there's no particular risk of esolangs being deleted at the moment, this is just generally trying to work out a solution to the problem
03:06:12 <CXI> a fair few of them are likely to be deleted at some point or another for being not terribly relevent to anyone outside the esolang community
03:16:32 <GregorR> Poor 2L, we hardly new ye :P
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09:31:33 <pgimeno> GregorR[-L]: it works perfectly now! good work
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13:14:40 <pgimeno> okay, the text is ready; I have posted it in my web though because it's too long
13:15:20 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/misc/server.html
13:15:55 <pgimeno> all that is left is to put the link in the ML
13:17:06 <kipple> in the paragraph about wikipedia you should mention that most of the langs there constantly face the threat of deletion.
13:18:44 <pgimeno> I'll copy what CXI said in that respect:
13:18:56 <pgimeno> <CXI> for the record, there's no particular risk of esolangs being deleted at the moment, this is just generally trying to work out a solution to the problem
13:18:56 <pgimeno> <CXI> a fair few of them are likely to be deleted at some point or another for being not terribly relevent to anyone outside the esolang community
13:22:00 <pgimeno> so that's not such a constant threat actually
13:22:10 <kipple> it has happened already that some langs have been deleted (i.e. homespring), so it could happen anytime...
13:22:31 <kipple> anyway. very nice text. good work!
13:22:44 <kipple> could we have a link to it in topic?
13:22:50 <pgimeno> hm, maybe it's worth mentioning, you're right
13:22:54 <CXI> well, I was trying to say that while there's no particular reason a language would be deleted now as opposed to later, the threat's still there
13:27:46 <pgimeno> I've changed it adding the part in parentheses in this sentence: "Before removal of any Wikipedia stuff (which is a constant threat) an alternative place..."
13:29:13 <kipple> anybody know who can set channel topic here? (I think Keymaker can)
13:29:30 <pgimeno> try by yourself, I think it's not locked
13:29:48 <kipple> ah. Have no idea how to do that
13:31:58 <kipple> OT: it sure takes time writing 160 billion zeroes....
13:33:21 -!- pgimeno has set topic: Another brainfuck site (http://www.bf-hacks.org/) is open! ~ http://chriscoyne.com/cfdg/ ~ Esolang Preservation project info: http://tinyurl.com/d3fk5.
13:33:45 <kipple> ha, the topic is getting crowded...
13:34:54 <CXI> huffman encode it
13:34:54 <CXI> then it'll be much shorter ;)
14:25:37 <kipple> I've written a short entry about what we have discussed in the Talk section of the esolang list in the Wikipedia. Hopefully we'll get some response there as well.
14:26:17 <pgimeno> (I'm preparing the actual message to the list, btw)
14:30:28 <pgimeno> very good; hopefully that will prevent further deletions
15:09:57 <pgimeno> is it correct in English to say "there's nothing carved in stone" (idiomatic saying meaning nothing is definitive)?
15:11:25 <kipple> or is it "set in stone"? not sure
15:11:35 <CXI> standard usage is "nothing's carved in stone" but yeah
15:11:43 <CXI> (or set in stone)
15:11:58 <CXI> actually, set is probably more common
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17:57:40 <GregorR-L> Hmm, while I have no problem with viral licenses (I prefer them even), I don't like the GFDL.
17:58:55 <kipple> well, I don't think we should impose a certain license
17:59:28 <GregorR-L> Yeah, certainly the wiki software should not impose a license, that's illogical.
17:59:52 <kipple> different esolangs are under different licences, and we should be able to host them all
18:00:10 <GregorR-L> Like ASP, under the shared source license.
18:00:15 <kipple> but are there any wiki software in question that impose a license?
18:00:39 <kipple> that is not a software. that is a hosting service.
18:00:48 <kipple> we can still use MediaWiki on our own servers
18:00:52 <GregorR-L> OK, OK - a possible option then ;)
18:01:22 <pgimeno> so far there's only calamari's
18:01:46 <GregorR-L> I've got an Apple Workgroup Server running Debian at home, but no hostable connection :P
18:02:06 <kipple> (not on my home server, but something more stable )
18:02:17 <wooby> i run a server, i'd be willing to share resources
18:02:36 <wooby> its a usermode linux thing out in california running slackware
18:03:14 <wooby> what do you guys need to do?
18:03:44 <kipple> agree on a wiki platform :)
18:03:51 <pgimeno> have you read the link at the topic, wooby?
18:04:18 <pgimeno> it's a good starting point :)
18:04:40 <wooby> na i'm just sort of babbling
18:05:42 -!- wooby has quit ("My damn controlling terminal disappeared!").
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18:06:25 <wooby> the 'ole client flipperoo
18:08:01 <GregorR-L> Cool, cool. Heard the rumors about Apple switching to Intel?
18:08:18 <wooby> yeah i saw some hubub about that
18:08:57 <pgimeno> well, we need three things: 1) mirror sites (one of them, still to decide, will be the central server), 2) editors, 3) agree on a wiki software
18:08:58 <wooby> i don't really care what chip they use
18:09:02 <wooby> i just bought mine to look cool :)
18:09:19 <GregorR-L> Seems unlikely to me - though I can definitely see them switching to centrino laptops. There would be a huge issue with platform compatability if they only half-changed though.
18:11:18 <wooby> the one calamari picked looks nice... the wiki software, that is
18:11:18 <malaprop> I can offer hosting/mirror. Been on the list a few years, didn't know the channel existed.
18:11:36 <wooby> yeah i can do the mirror thing too
18:12:08 <kipple> great. looks like we have plenty of hosting options.
18:12:30 <GregorR-L> wooby: MoinMoin is nice, but python - if all the hosts have python, it quite wins.
18:13:03 <kipple> anybody have problem running a wiki which requires python or mysql?
18:13:14 <pgimeno> malaprop: can you offer python?
18:13:16 <GregorR-L> kipple: Doesn't MoinMoin use flat files?
18:13:17 <kipple> I mean, you who just now offered hosting?
18:13:29 <malaprop> I can run Python CGI, but not mod_python or more esoteric frameworks.
18:14:05 <kipple> MediaWiki (my favorite) requires mysql
18:14:22 <malaprop> MediaWiki is also my favorite, but I don't have a strong preference.
18:15:25 * kipple dislikes when the links use CamelCase (i.e. BrainfuckDerivativeProgammingLanguages)
18:15:48 <GregorR-L> Though I use that in programming all the time :P
18:16:07 <malaprop> OK, MoinMoin does support CGI. Will not be fast that way, but it has other, faster frontends like FastCGI, Twisted, and mod_python.
18:16:30 <malaprop> So if MoinMoin is picked, I can be a backup but not primary.
18:16:47 <wooby> i'd prolly do the fastcgi thing, because i just have a preference for lighttpd
18:16:53 <wooby> so in any case it's runnable
18:17:26 <kipple> hmm. is there an easy way to check if a web server supports mod_python or similar?
18:17:44 <malaprop> grep mod_python /path/to/httpd.conf
18:21:22 <kipple> and if I don't know where httpd.conf is? or if I even have read access...
18:21:44 <wooby> or /etc/httpd, /etc/apache... osmething like that
18:21:59 <kipple> yeah, that was what I was looking for, but no....
18:22:27 <GregorR-L> Sometimes the 404 error page will show mod_* in the banner.
18:23:44 <GregorR-L> If it doesn't say "python" anywhere, you probably don't have it. But you probably still can do python CGI.
18:27:15 <GregorR-L> find / -name (whatever) takes a long time ;)
18:27:43 <kipple> no httpd.conf, apache.conf or apache2.conf. ah, well. not important
18:30:18 <GregorR-L> lol, somebody should write a BF parser for some wiki, so your input can be BF if you want :P
18:30:40 <wooby> or lets just write a whole wiki in BF, and run BF cgi :)
18:31:18 <malaprop> Heh, I was tempted to write a Befunge CGI gateway.
18:31:22 <GregorR-L> The total lack of file I/O could be an issue.
18:32:05 <pgimeno> kipple: probably the file is not indexed; try (as root): find /etc -name "httpd.conf"
18:32:42 <kipple> umm. I do not have root access... If it were my server it wouldn't a problem
18:33:02 <malaprop> You could write an extension for MediaWiki that would take anything between tags like <bf></bf> and run it through an interpreter.
18:33:32 <pgimeno> kipple: hm, then I don't know if 'find' can enter the dirs where httpd.conf is
18:33:48 <wooby> malaprop: or perhaps an extension that supported arbitrary esolang parsing
18:33:53 <kipple> i have a feeling I wont be allowed to view it anyway..
18:34:02 <kipple> that would be very cool
18:34:27 <malaprop> wooby: It'd need customization for each language to hook up to the interpreter. And there'd be security concerns for any esolang with network/file i/o.
18:34:35 <kipple> <eso lang="bf"> </eso>
18:34:41 <wooby> oh of course it's a completely... esoteric notion :)
18:34:47 <pgimeno> probably something like <?bf +++[>+++<-] etc ?>
18:35:12 <pgimeno> hm, I also like kipple's idea
18:35:19 <malaprop> pgimeno: For MediaWiki extensions, tags are all <tag></tag>.
18:35:36 <pgimeno> malaprop: oh ok, didn't know that
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18:40:22 <pgimeno> my thought was more like using bf as a php substitutive
18:41:23 <kipple> I've thought of that as well. but it's not going to be very usable....
18:42:34 <pgimeno> what's the prob? BF is a wonderful language for text expansion :P
18:42:39 <kipple> well, I've written a BF program that I actually use
18:43:45 <pgimeno> BF for real life? go away, you freak!!!
18:44:31 <kipple> it takes a BF program and reomoves all non BF-chars and outputs it in nice 80 chars per line :D
18:44:32 <GregorR-L> Hmm .. would have been good if I did that right.
18:44:58 <kipple> can't say I use it every day, though
18:45:46 <GregorR-L> It would be nice if there was some way to inject PHP into a wiki but safely ... reject a large class of functions, etc.
18:47:09 <lindi-> depending on the functions that can be impossible to solve
18:47:29 <GregorR-L> Since it's a constantly increasing count.
18:48:00 <lindi-> i was refering to Rice's theorem
18:48:22 <lindi-> GregorR-L: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice's_theorem
18:49:24 <kipple> I guess you could parse the injected PHP and compare it to a function white-list
18:49:50 <malaprop> kipple: That's what MediaWiki's TeX extension does in a nutshell.
18:55:08 <kipple> anybody know if any of the wiki's allows java applets in some way?
18:55:28 <kipple> I guess it is easy to write a MediaWiki extension to do it, but how about the others?
18:55:41 <GregorR-L> If you allowed uploads of .jar, you could do it in Giki.
18:56:08 <kipple> yes, because that allows any HMTL, right?
18:56:54 <kipple> there are a few java applet (and java script) online interpreters out there. would be nice to include them
18:57:18 <GregorR-L> Same problem as allowing PHP, right?
18:57:31 <GregorR-L> Suddenly people can freely post unsafe code that can destroy the server.
18:57:46 <kipple> java applets and scripts cannot (normally) affect the server
18:58:04 <GregorR-L> OHOH, I misinterpreted your sentence.
18:58:16 <GregorR-L> I thought you meant an interpreter for Java(Script) on the server :-P
18:58:24 <GregorR-L> Which seemed weird, since those are both client-side :P
18:58:37 <GregorR-L> But you meant an interpreter for a given langugae in Java(Script)
18:58:57 <kipple> several esoteric pages have them
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19:57:35 <calamari> pgimeno: great job on the writeup! hopefully we'll see some discussion on the mailing list
19:58:48 <kipple> do you know if it is possible to include stuff like Java applets in the MoinMoin wiki?
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20:03:02 <wooby> so the domain esolangs.org is available
20:03:45 <calamari> kipple: no idea.. if Wiki! uses html, then it'd be possible there
20:03:52 <wooby> calamari: whats up!
20:04:21 <wooby> pumped about the idea of this preservation site
20:08:07 <calamari> kipple: with the java applets, I assume you're thinking of live language demos?
20:08:28 <kipple> javascript would also be nice
20:08:40 <kipple> in Wiki! and MediaWiki that should be easy
20:09:00 <calamari> I'll ask in #moin.. they are very helpful
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20:14:56 <calamari> kipple: doesn't look like there's a good way to do it.. raw html can be allowed.. but there are risks involved with that (javascript redirects, for example)
20:15:53 <kipple> how about extensions/plugins?
20:16:00 <calamari> the way they said to do it was to save the java applet as an attachment, and reference it with the html
20:16:29 <kipple> you mean for download?
20:17:04 <calamari> yes & no.. I think it would show up as a clickable download.. but the html would run it like you see in other pages
20:17:21 <kipple> not sure what yuu mean
20:17:38 <kipple> upload both HTML file and applet?
20:17:39 <calamari> well, the java applet jar has to be stored somewhere
20:17:55 <calamari> so it will be downloadable like any other attachment
20:18:03 <malaprop> If you can't put an <embed> or <object> tag in a page's source, you can't have a Java applet on the page.
20:18:09 <calamari> then html code will be used to run the java applet
20:18:55 <calamari> malaprop: yep.. what I'm hearing is that there is a way to allow html in moinmoin pages
20:19:09 <calamari> so it'd work.. but it's a bit unsafe
20:19:29 <wooby> or maybe we could hack it to pop up a separate window, with the applet inside
20:19:50 <wooby> then you could tool around with the applet and read the article on the side
20:21:05 <calamari> it might be possible to hack moinmoin to add the necessary embedding code as another keyword
20:21:16 <calamari> then we don't have to enable html
20:21:32 <wooby> yeah that would be the best way
20:21:48 <kipple> looked a bit a plugins. I think it could be done as a Macro plugin
20:21:54 -!- andreou has joined.
20:22:10 <kipple> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MoinDev/PluginConcept
20:22:17 <malaprop> So moving MySQL dumps around is bad, but a patch to the wiki that'll have to be maintained for all the versions is OK?
20:22:39 <kipple> I have no problems with MySQL dumps
20:23:11 <kipple> but for MediaWiki you also have to sync uploaded files/images
20:23:51 <calamari> they say that a one line macro plugin is possible
20:23:53 <kipple> and we would need to add an extension to MediaWiki as well if applets are to be possible
20:25:40 <kipple> in MoinMoin I think that if you rsync the entire directory hirearchy you would get all patches as well
20:25:44 <calamari> malaprop: don't get bent out of shape.. nothing has been decided yet ;)
20:26:32 <calamari> yeah, rsync sounds good.. didn't even know such a program existed until the other day in here :)
20:26:54 <wooby> rsync is supersweet
20:27:07 <kipple> it works on MySQL dumps as well :) (unless they are zipped)
20:27:39 <calamari> http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/cgi-bin/moin.cgi/HelpOnMacros
20:29:40 <calamari> I need to leave.. but I can take a look at that later on.. I'm decent with Python, so maybe I can put something together
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20:37:43 <pgimeno> I'll ignore the "oh no" then :)
20:40:37 <lament> i meant: oh no, you missed calamari
20:44:37 <pgimeno> the security risks are minimized by only allowing editing by registered people IMO
20:45:21 <pgimeno> (about calamari's concerns with the security risks of allowing JavaScript)
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21:24:19 <graue> so, we're all excited about preserving esoteric languages, eh?
21:38:57 <kipple> hey graue. It's you who has that wiki on voxelperfect isn't it?
21:40:24 <kipple> ah, yes it is (just saw your mail on lang)
21:41:58 <pgimeno> if my VNC desktops weren't a mess I would have read it before :)
21:42:36 <GregorR> Well, I implemented a plugin system on the way to work :P
21:43:10 <GregorR> And a plugin to do a simple wikisyntax (with bold, italic, underline, headers, lists and tables)
21:43:14 <pgimeno> hope you don't drive your way to your work :)
21:44:57 <pgimeno> graue: I think we need fully functional mirror servers
21:45:28 <pgimeno> I have checked your work and I agree with you that it's better than Wikipedia's approach
21:46:09 <pgimeno> the content you've added is perfect; now the question is whether to continue with MediaWiki or to switch to a different one
21:47:47 <pgimeno> GregorR: I'm not sure we're finally going to use Wiki!
21:49:15 <pgimeno> if rsync can handle MySQL databases and the mirrors can use rsync, probably that covers all needs despite my initial doubt about MySQL
21:49:26 <GregorR> pgimeno: I'm fully aware of that, but that doesn't mean that I won't be using it ;)
21:50:06 <GregorR> rsync of a MySQL dump would be equivilant to downloading the entire database every time I think ... the advantage of rsync on flat files is it only downloads the updated files.
21:51:41 <GregorR> So why use rsync instead of just scp ;)
21:52:00 <pgimeno> apparently rsync also updates the local database
21:52:16 <pgimeno> that's what I understood from previous discussion at least
21:52:37 <pgimeno> I'm not fully convinced about MySQL anyway because it's just another possible point of failure
21:53:07 <malaprop> pgimeno: How many 9s of uptime do we need? MySQL is common and stable.
21:53:12 <GregorR> Wait ... through MySQL? No, rsync just does files, it doesn't plug in to MySQL anyway...
21:54:15 <malaprop> can mysqldump to files in any case
21:54:20 <pgimeno> malaprop: well, from time to time I see a message in Wikipedia about a database server restart
21:54:53 <GregorR> pgimeno: Yeah - though there is an rsync protocol, so perhaps there is a program that uses the rsync protocol with MySQL?
21:55:01 <malaprop> They have a much different, larger architecture with many masters and slaves. I would be surprised if this ever even required a dedicated MySQL server.
21:55:23 <pgimeno> GregorR: not sure, I thought so as per a previous discussion with calamari
21:56:23 <malaprop> As a counter-example, here at work the .pro GTLD backends to MySQL and we have a contract with ICANN requiring so 99.87 to 99.999% uptime on various things. We've never had an issue.
21:56:54 <pgimeno> malaprop: well, I'm not against it, I just have my doubts but will accept it as a final decision
21:57:41 <malaprop> pgimeno: What else causes you to doubt MySQL uptime? I'm not trying to have an argument, you're just the first person I've met to consider it unreliable.
21:58:31 <pgimeno> being a database server, not just for being mysql, has a few issues
21:59:13 <malaprop> So you'd just rather see a filesystem backend instead of a db?
22:00:08 <pgimeno> partial recovery in case of disaster is easier with files than with a monolithic database file
22:01:48 <GregorR> Plus, using a relational database with a wiki is sort of overkill. And by sort of ... I mean entirely.
22:01:50 <pgimeno> space growth can be a problem too, I don't know how MySQL handles that but I think it's the smartest in that sense
22:03:40 <graue> i could make a site managed as flat files through subversion
22:03:48 <GregorR> Oh, just remembered. About patches for "Wiki!" - wouldn't we want the wiki software itself to rsync down with everything else, regardless of what software it is? I mean, all software has versions ...
22:03:52 <malaprop> GregorR: Things like backlinks benefit greatly from a deb structure.
22:04:17 <GregorR> Also overkill in my opinion, but *cough* :P
22:04:33 <GregorR> Yeah, I can see your point, that is.
22:05:13 <pgimeno> graue: the main question with the subversion approach is that we need decentralization
22:06:21 <pgimeno> using svn is good for projects that are centralized in one server
22:08:13 <GregorR> pgimeno: s/deb/DB/ I think
22:17:51 <pgimeno> what do you mean, malaprop?
22:19:10 <malaprop> pgimeno: btw, no wiki runs decentralized -- can have multiple frontends (apaches), but one backend (db, fs). So all mirrors will be read-only regardless of wiki.
22:19:59 <kipple> um. the point here is to have each mirror be COMPLETE. whether they use fs or db
22:21:04 <malaprop> Ya, and that's possible, but all but one need to be read-only. Otherwise the different wikis will get out of sync.
22:21:46 <kipple> anyway, i looked up in the rsync man pages: "the rsync remote-update protocol is used to update the file by sending only the differences"
22:21:58 <kipple> I think it will work fine on a mysql-dump
22:22:40 <pgimeno> malaprop: ok, but can a read-only mirror become read-write in case the read-write one fails? that's the point
22:23:00 <graue> pgimeno, with a full mysql dump, yes
22:23:04 <malaprop> Ya, just need to have humans making sure the right one is read-write and at the right times. :
22:23:20 <kipple> but a mysql-dump is not enough
22:23:33 <kipple> uploaded files and images must also be backed up
22:23:43 <graue> those would be in the database, if they're part of the wiki
22:24:00 <malaprop> graue: No, MediaWiki stores images/files on disk in images/
22:24:39 <kipple> so they have to be rsync'ed as well
22:24:44 <pgimeno> that's no problem as long as everything is sync'ed
22:25:25 <kipple> if you put them in the same hierarchy as where the db-dumps are one call to rsync is enough
22:26:01 <pgimeno> regarding r/w vs r/o, the only caution to have is to update the mirrors to point to the new server before letting it be read-write
22:26:02 <kipple> then there is the issue of Wiki settings
22:26:20 <pgimeno> aren't these in the database too?
22:26:26 <kipple> MediaWiki stores some settings in a php file
22:27:15 <pgimeno> mmh... can that file be included in the pack?
22:27:20 <malaprop> So putting the mysqldump into wiki/ and making wiki/ the target of rsync will keep everything in sync all the time. All the PHP, images, files, db.
22:27:34 <graue> wiki/ is actually empty
22:27:38 <graue> the php, images, etc. are in w/
22:27:38 <kipple> yes. that's the way to do it probably
22:27:54 <malaprop> graue: wiki/ is the default name IIRC, is no biggie
22:27:54 <graue> also, most of LocalSettings.php is site-specific (e.g., the MySQL user/password)
22:28:13 <graue> no, the default, and how wikipedia is set up, has all the files in w/
22:28:28 <graue> wiki/ is an empty directory and urls within it are rewritten with mod_rewrite
22:28:53 <kipple> the problem is site specific settings
22:29:20 <pgimeno> perhaps that file doesn't need to be transferred
22:29:39 <kipple> but it has some settings that should be used...
22:29:45 <graue> LocalSettings.php controls cosmetic stuff and skins and the license (public domain in our case)
22:29:52 <graue> it doesn't seem to have anything relevant to the content
22:31:24 <GregorR> Even so, download everything then run a script over any settings to make them local, that's not too tough.
22:31:57 <malaprop> As hosts should fail fairly infrequently, is not a big hassle.
22:32:27 <kipple> rsync can be told to exclude file patterns, so no biggie
22:32:37 <pgimeno> well, revealing the mysql username/password is not a good idea :)
22:32:48 <pgimeno> a sed script or something should be used to hide them
22:33:33 <kipple> the files which contains "secrets" should have their permissions set properly, and it wont be a problem
22:34:28 <GregorR> Oh, there's a problem I realized with ALL file-based systems - generally, the files are created by (and hence owned by) the web server user (such as "apache"), and hence would not be writable by the user doint the updates.
22:35:28 <GregorR> Actually, lemme think about this ... if on the only editable node, they're owned by apache and readable by the user, and on the other nodes they're owned by the user and readable by apache, is there a problem? Hmm...
22:35:53 <kipple> I don't see the problem...
22:37:35 <GregorR> Well, rsync would be run by the user with the cronjob. However, the httpd itself would be running under a different user, usually "apache." So, when a file is created in the wiki, it's owned by apache, not the user. If the user (through cron) then runs rsync, it won't be able to write over that file, since that user doesn't own it.
22:37:58 <malaprop> That's an issue for local apache configuration.
22:38:23 <GregorR> But many mirrors won't be able to configure their apache (not because of incompetance, but because of access)
22:39:02 <malaprop> Think of those as 'off-site backups' instead of 'live mirrors' then.
22:39:26 <GregorR> Yeah, I was thinking along that line when I made that second post.
22:39:37 <GregorR> The problem would be if we needed to change the master.
22:39:43 <GregorR> Since then files would need to change users.
22:46:50 <pgimeno> rsync can download the files from 127.0.0.1 through wget
22:49:57 <GregorR> rsync will already make them be owned by the user - that wouldn't change that.
22:50:22 <GregorR> If there was a web UPLOAD interface, that would work, but would be a whole lot of complexity for a relatively simple problem :P
22:50:31 <pgimeno> then curl can upload them through wget :)
22:50:41 <pgimeno> then curl can upload them, that is
22:51:29 <pgimeno> I think that that must have been solved, maybe there's an apache rsync module or something
22:52:48 <GregorR> Well, I don't think it would cause as much of an issue as I'm thinking - on the main server, it would be owned by apache and readable by the user (all it needs to serve them) and on the others, it would be owned by the user and readable by apache (all apache needs to wiki-fy them)
23:03:32 <pgimeno> graue: what do you think on the idea of rotating the main server every couple of months? I reckon you had first the idea and did the actual work of setting up a server for preservation of esolangs, so your opinion is important
23:04:40 <kipple> What's the purpose of this rotation?
23:04:51 <kipple> seems like just extra work to me
23:05:17 <GregorR> Speaking of the only situation where my users problem comes into play :P
23:06:13 <pgimeno> well, it will prove the mirrors to be fully functional and refresh the memory of how to do the change
23:07:47 <pgimeno> it will expose the problems that mirrors may have such as the potential issue that GregorR mentions
23:10:40 <graue> i think the languages should be esoteric and the wiki should not be
23:11:05 <graue> esoteric.voxelperfect.net is not doing anywhere, and if it does, a mysql dump and a .tar.gz of the uploaded files are all that will be required to save the content
23:11:10 <graue> why make it any harder than that?
23:12:43 <GregorR> AH! I've got the solution to my problem! If the rsync commands were written as a PHP or CGI script, cron would wget http://127.0.0.1/whatever.php , and then it would trigger the APACHE user to download! Hoopla :)
23:13:11 <pgimeno> I'm sometimes a bit paranoid :)
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23:14:03 <pgimeno> but you're right, graue - the KISS philosophy is by far the most effective one
23:16:32 <kipple_> I'm all for using graue's wiki
23:17:46 <kipple_> but downloading files as a tar.gz is not ideal
23:18:07 <kipple_> if people upload specs in pdf it can quickly become several megs
23:18:30 <pgimeno> however rsync has the same problem as python
23:18:45 <pgimeno> it needs support from the server
23:23:40 -!- wooby has joined.
23:24:00 <GregorR> rsync uses SSH to communicate - if I'm not mistaken (and I could be) it can connect to any server running OpenSSH.
23:24:00 <kipple_> about licencing: graue's wiki says content is public domain. How about adding content from pages that use GPL or similar.... Isn't that (in theory) problematic?
23:24:21 <kipple_> GregorR: as long as both machines have rsync installed
23:24:47 <GregorR> But there doesn't need to be an rsync daemon per se.
23:25:01 <kipple_> no. the daemon is not required.
23:25:31 <GregorR> It's bad for the wiki to say that the content is under ANY particular license, even public domain, since indeed posting GPL utilities could become illegal.
23:26:22 <kipple_> couldn't it say "Content is Public Domain, except where otherwise noted" or something?
23:28:12 <kipple_> IANAL but I think that might cover it
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23:33:24 <graue> well, the problem then is, some jerk can just add a paragraph to a page and say "Everything on here is now (c) me all rights reserved, ha ha ha!!!!!" and infect the page with viral copyright
23:33:57 <graue> i was thinking of a files repository separate from the wiki, actually, like what's at http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/
23:34:56 <GregorR> If it stores history, one could just restore from before that like one would if somebody posted "PEEPEEPEEPEEPEEPEE" over content./
23:35:06 <pgimeno> grue: btw, I don't know if you're aware that Cat's Eye Technologies is back online
23:35:24 <graue> pgimeno, the wierd page there wasn't working when i checked, though
23:36:21 <pgimeno> it's working perfectly right now
23:36:37 <pgimeno> anyway it's a good idea to mirror it
23:37:14 <pgimeno> however that's the whole point of one of my last sentences about asking for permission to the authors
23:40:28 <pgimeno> Martijn van der Heide, the webmaster from www.worldofspectrum.org, is making a huge effort of gathering permissions to distribute everything he can for the 5000+ Speccy files he's hosting
23:41:17 <kipple_> I think licencing is only an issue for file up/downloads. The text in the wiki should be able to be PD
23:42:28 <pgimeno> he did kind of "cheat": he hosts the files and asks for permission; when someone denies it, he removes the files
23:42:44 <graue> heh, that's hardly a huge effort
23:43:22 <kipple_> anyways, Wikipedia contains copyrighted images and stuff, so can't be that big a problem
23:45:07 <GregorR> Hmm, how about "All text on this page is in the public domain, hosted files may include licensing information."
23:45:36 <graue> i added a short paragraph at http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/
23:48:11 <wooby> i've gotten esolangs.org somewhat working, message me if you'd like a shell
23:48:18 <wooby> i can mirror whatever wiki we decide on
23:50:32 <pgimeno> graue: what version of MediaWiki is that?
23:51:30 <pgimeno> wooby: can you try to install MediaWiki?
23:51:47 <pgimeno> there's the issue of versions too, btw
23:51:53 <wooby> oh, what are we going with?
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23:53:34 <pgimeno> it's kind of a experiment to see if it may work.
23:54:07 <calamari> hi pgimeno, good job on that writeup :)
23:54:36 <pgimeno> graue is the owner of esoteric.voxelperfect.net
23:55:19 <calamari> is he interested in the whole mirroring thing? he didn't really say one way or the other
23:55:56 <calamari> hmm, seems I need to read more carefully
23:57:01 <pgimeno> well, he kind of proposes a KISS kind of philosophy: just a DB backup and a collection of files; no mirrors
23:57:42 <kipple_> um. with a db dump and the files, you can make as many mirrors you want, can't you?
23:59:21 <kipple_> provided that really is all you need... which we will hopefully soon find out
00:00:07 <calamari> mediawiki seems like a heavyweight wiki
00:01:22 <kipple_> heavyweight in what way? system requirements, features, lines of code... ?
00:01:40 <calamari> system requirements (ram), and database
00:02:38 <kipple_> graue: what hardware are you running on?
00:03:31 <kipple_> it's not going to have lots of traffic, so I don't think it will be a problem...
00:04:18 <calamari> lament: I think it's scary, because we ultimately lose control and if wikicities goes down, all is lost
00:04:33 <lament> if graue is using BT to download and upload lots of porn, the site will be slow no matter how little traffic it has
00:04:40 <pgimeno> mirrors are a way of dealing with network traffic
00:05:06 <kipple_> you can get (daily I think) db-dumps from wikicities too
00:05:06 <lament> calamari: you can get the DB dump on wikicities, no?
00:05:16 <graue> i don't own the server, it's shared, specs are here: http://textdrive.com/specs/
00:05:33 <lament> calamari: and i trust wikimedia more than any individual with a server
00:05:49 <kipple_> me too. that's why we mirror it
00:06:25 <calamari> lament: who is going to store them? Unless people are actively involved, I foresee the db dumps eventually going to a dead server, then wikicities goes offline, the dumps are attempted to be retrieved , and only then it is discovered that the erson keeping dumps was gone long ago
00:06:38 <kipple_> I trust 3 mirrors more than wikicities (which is NOT part of wikimedia)
00:07:15 <lament> calamari: anybody involved in anything esoteric is likely to very suddenly stop being involved
00:07:43 <pgimeno> lament: btw, wikicities is not a wikimedia project
00:08:25 <GregorR> With full-on mirrors rather than just backups, if the main goes down, you don't have to go begging after somebody for content, it's still there.
00:08:28 <kipple_> I fear what will happen if the ads on wikicities isn't enough to pay the hosting expences
00:09:58 <kipple_> anybody know if there is a read-only setting in MediaWiki?
00:12:12 <wooby> well, i have this usermode linux box running and i'm willing to devote it to the site
00:12:23 <wooby> just might need help administering it from time to time as i'm about to travel
00:15:10 <calamari> kipple_: yes there is a read only setting
00:15:29 <kipple_> then read-only mirrors should be easy
00:15:41 <calamari> kipple: has edut redirecting been abandoned?
00:16:35 <calamari> kipple: not without modifying the source code
00:16:47 <kipple_> we should try to avoid that IMHO
00:16:49 <pgimeno> I think it's not an option
00:17:05 <pgimeno> there's a lot of problems involved
00:17:53 <calamari> there should at least be an edit way for people on the mirrors to edit, or they will never be used for anything
00:18:25 <calamari> then nobody will know when the mirrors go down, because they are unused :)
00:18:26 <kipple_> they don't have to be used. only be there in case the main goes down
00:19:56 <GregorR> I agree with calamari - there should at least be a simple header("Location: <master>/edit.php");
00:20:43 <pgimeno> guest users can't edit anyway
00:22:09 <calamari> each mirror can redirect to the main site, unless the main site is down (pretty sure there's a way to test for that), in which case the read only local copy is shown. The main site would only allow connections that were from the mirrors
00:22:46 <calamari> what is it called, the referrer?
00:23:39 <calamari> that way people are forced to use the mirrors, rather than accessing the main site directly
00:23:52 <kipple_> I don't know. Would make it more complicated to set up. KISS?
00:24:06 <calamari> is it really that complicated?
00:24:26 <pgimeno> anything involving touching that code is risky
00:24:57 <kipple_> how would you prevent connections from non-mirrors?
00:25:06 <pgimeno> then the server needs a list of mirrors
00:25:09 <calamari> kipple: you'd only prevent them from the main page
00:25:24 <graue> make an Esolang:Mirrors page on the wiki
00:25:29 <calamari> kipple: yeah it would.. but it'll need that anyways to send out dumps
00:25:29 <graue> listing the URL of the original, and the URLs of the mirrors
00:25:48 <graue> since that page will be mirrored along with everything else, any copy can be found from anywhere
00:26:09 <kipple_> um, the main shouldn't send out dumps. Only provide them for download
00:26:52 <kipple_> aha. anyway, that's at least my opinion
00:27:28 <kipple_> makes it easier to set up a mirror (i.e. no configuration is needed on the main site)
00:28:30 <calamari> I see little reason to set up a mirror if nobody is going to use it, though :)
00:28:54 <calamari> that's not what I meant.. but ok
00:29:13 <pgimeno> I more or less agree with calamari, but I don't see why people are not going to use mirrors
00:29:27 <kipple_> I don't see a reason to use a mirror?
00:29:34 <calamari> pgimeno: because you can't edit
00:29:50 <kipple_> why use a mirror if you can use the main?
00:29:53 <pgimeno> if only editors can edit, that's not a problem
00:30:08 <pgimeno> kipple_: "Please use a server near to you"
00:31:05 <pgimeno> similar to what one gets when downloading a file from sourceforge
00:31:31 <kipple_> I don't think traffic will reach the point were that is necessary
00:32:06 <calamari> I don't either.. it's not really a traffic problem.. I'm just concerned that the mirrors will evaporate without anyone knowing it
00:32:34 <pgimeno> a rotating DNS could perhaps also help
00:32:40 <pgimeno> but that's harder to set up
00:32:51 <pgimeno> (similar to irc.freenode.net)
00:33:08 <calamari> yeah that's too much trouble I think
00:33:29 <kipple_> here's how I see it: if you are afraid of something disappearing, take a backup yourself. All we should do is make sure the main site facilitates that
00:33:36 <calamari> people aren't going to want to change their config, well unless it can be automated
00:34:07 <calamari> s the whole point tho.. otherwise, what's wrong with graue's site?
00:34:50 <kipple_> I don't follow you. Have I said there's something wrong with graue's site?
00:35:08 <GregorR> As long as there are enough alternative modes of communication (DirectNet and IRC and DirectNet and email and ... DirectNet :P )and enough auto-downloaders, I think just having one active main isn't a problem.
00:35:45 <calamari> one thing they taught us in first aid training is never to say "someone call for help", because then no one does (someone else must already have done it) the better alternative is to pick someone (or in our case multiple people) to do it
00:36:27 <GregorR> Hence auto-downloaders rather than humans.
00:36:37 <calamari> kipple: ?? not trying to imply anything wrong with his site
00:36:47 <kipple_> I'm not saying "someone call for help". I'm saying "YOU call for help" ;)
00:37:17 <kipple_> but, of course, you have a point....
00:37:32 <kipple_> how can we be 100% sure a backup is taken.....
00:37:33 <calamari> kipple: I didn't realize you were speaking directly to me individually
00:38:22 <kipple_> dang, it's hard sometimes to communicate by IRC :)
00:38:56 <calamari> I'm glad graue has his site up.. it looks really nice
00:39:07 <pgimeno> kipple_: by checking the mirror site ;P
00:39:12 <GregorR> The best way to guarantee it would be to upload from the main rather than trusting the mirrors to download.
00:39:52 <kipple_> if the mirrors go down, upload fails as much as download
00:40:11 <GregorR> But the main would know it, and could put a big red banner on the page saying "THIS MIRROR IS DOWN!!!!!!!!"
00:40:32 <kipple_> you could still do that, without uploading
00:40:48 <GregorR> Hmm, I suppose you could check whether a mirror has downloaded...
00:41:06 <kipple_> I would like to be able to take a backup of the site WITHOUT being dependent on the current admin to give it to you
00:41:46 <GregorR> The problem with the download model is that you can't trust people to download - if the main goes down, it's possible that nobody would have backed it up. (cont. next line)
00:42:12 <GregorR> The problem with the upload model is that the (possibly non-existant) administrator of the main site needs to make changes for a new mirror to spring up.
00:42:36 <GregorR> So make the process of adding oneself to the upload list automated.
00:42:41 <GregorR> You win the typing contest.
00:42:41 <pgimeno> downloads can be motnitored
00:42:56 <GregorR> pgimeno: That would be significantly more difficult I think ...
00:43:13 <GregorR> Especially if it's via HTTP or whatnot...
00:43:56 <pgimeno> really? "Last downloads: 80.35.19.122 2005-05-25 17:20"
00:44:59 <GregorR> Oh, so the download would be through a PHP script?
00:45:11 <GregorR> I thought there would just be a file floating on a server somewhere that got updated now and then X-D
00:45:46 <pgimeno> even so, that file could be gotten through a PHP script
00:45:52 <calamari> mmm php in a nutshell, to be published July 2005.. I'll have to ask for that one for Christmas :)
00:46:22 <pgimeno> "gotten"? is that correct?
00:46:22 <GregorR> However, then there's another problem. 1) You'd need a daemon to actually do anything with that info, 2) there would still need to be a main-site mirror list for that to be useful.
00:46:45 <GregorR> Hmm, "gotten" ... I think so? Me not talk English.
00:47:10 <GregorR> AHH! LONG WORDS HURT GREGOR!
00:48:12 <pgimeno> anyway, just a special page with the last downloads seems sensible
00:48:59 <GregorR> Then it falls back to trusting humans - who's going to check that page to make sure everything is in order?
00:49:17 <pgimeno> it can be in the same page as mirrors
00:50:30 <GregorR> I don't know whether people would react when they saw "Last update/backup: <2002>"
00:50:31 <calamari> then have a link on how to because a mirror site
00:50:54 <GregorR> Wait, didn't we decide that they wouldn't be mirrors proper, just backup sites?
00:51:13 <calamari> I didn't realize that was decided
00:51:44 <kipple_> the point is, you can do whatever you want with your own backup/mirror
00:52:01 <kipple_> for me a backup is sufficient
00:52:30 <calamari> is it possible to download sithout downloading the entire database each time?
00:53:13 <calamari> oh? cool.. didn't realize rsync could work with databases
00:53:20 <kipple_> the dump is a plain text file
00:53:25 <pgimeno> <kipple> it works on MySQL dumps as well :) (unless they are zipped)
00:53:55 <kipple_> though it might get big if not zipped
00:54:02 <kipple_> probably not a problem for us
00:54:37 <calamari> well, hopefully not, since rsync only sends the files that changed, right? or does it even do better than that and send a patch?
00:55:15 <pgimeno> well, a forum with lots of daily traffic has a 50 Mb database
00:55:37 <kipple_> yes, but I don't think we'll get close to that
00:56:16 <kipple_> I think we're in the ballpark of some weekly traffic
00:56:19 <pgimeno> I think a 50 Mb dump is reasonable
00:56:43 <kipple_> is that before or after zipping it? (the forum example)
00:58:37 <calamari> I like the "Last backup" idea, but put it on the main page where everyone sees it
01:01:17 <calamari> I wonder if it'd be possible to determine the last time anything was edited on the wiki.. then after a week it could say "Backup out of date, please help to preserve this wiki" or something like that :)
01:02:03 <kipple_> There could be a list of backups last week. then people could be encouraged to take weekly backups, and picking days when few others do
01:03:04 <pgimeno> I'm too sleepy to go on discussing
01:03:07 <kipple_> the "recent changes" page shows the last time something was edited
01:03:18 <calamari> it'd also be good to require some kind of contact information, like an e-mail address
01:04:16 <calamari> although, that might raise privacy concerns
01:04:32 <calamari> since the only way it would be useful is if it was also in the dump :)
01:04:47 <graue> yes, the dump contains every user's email address
01:05:18 <kipple_> I don't see that as a problem. WikiPedia does the same. if
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01:07:05 <GregorR> Well, that was a pointless quit :P
01:07:07 <kipple_> the email should be optional anyway
01:08:35 <GregorR> BTW, if the database was sent compressed, rsync would be pointless, since the diffs would be irrelevent.
01:08:59 <kipple_> yes. that's why it shouldn't be compressed
01:09:17 <GregorR> Plus, rsync's traffic can be compressed, rather than the DB itself.
01:09:19 <calamari> the question is how much bandwidth would it take to prepare the patch vs just sending the zipped file?
01:10:09 <kipple_> well, the whole point of rsync seems to be to conserve bandwith, so I think it is worth it
01:10:54 <GregorR> The very first download would be significantly higher-bandwidth.
01:10:59 <GregorR> After that it would be far far less.
01:11:06 <graue> i don't think a couple megabytes a week matters to anyone in the first place
01:11:55 <GregorR> I live in the happy world where the esowiki is about 1.6GB and there's more data there than anybody could swim through in a lifetime :P
01:12:32 <calamari> that post pgimeno made is the first in how many months? :)
01:13:25 <kipple_> FYI, the zipped dump for current pages of the english wikipedia is 900MB, so 1.6GB is perhaps a bit optimistic...
01:17:01 <GregorR> YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY! GIKI PROJECT APPROVED!!! :)
01:18:35 <calamari> google says: Ghulam Ishaq Khan Institute of Engineering Sciences and Technology.. GIKI is a center of excellence in Pakistan for the natural sciences and Computing.
01:25:58 <GregorR> kipple_: It was you who suggested the name, right?
01:26:21 <GregorR> Well, it is a rawx0r name :)
01:26:30 <GregorR> Gregor's Wiki = Giki = Geeky = yeeeeh haw :P
01:28:08 <GregorR> I've had experience with bad project names, and this isn't one
01:28:24 <kipple_> just made a user on graue's wiki and got user ID 2 :) I take it not many has registered....
01:28:25 <GregorR> OBLISK's original name was SupaRun ... it's embarassing just to say that ... what a stupid name.
01:31:20 <kipple_> in a couple of years, maybe I can sell that user on ebay for lots of $$$$$ ;)
01:31:58 <kipple_> I've heard people have actually sold slashdot users with low IDs on ebay
01:44:51 <GregorR> I despise anybody stupid enough to actually buy those, and idolize anybody with the marketing genius to be able to sell them :P
01:48:15 <kipple_> Yay! I've finished zeroing the harddrive on my web server. and it only took 13 hours.... :D
01:48:47 <GregorR> There may be people who would suggest that that's a bit extreme ;)
01:49:08 <kipple_> it was suggested as a way to get rid of the bad sectors
01:49:57 <kipple_> at least I didn't get any r/w errors, like I got with various HD utilities
01:50:59 <kipple_> "bit extreme" it is though! more than a trillion bits is definately extremely many :)
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03:59:38 * GregorR-L is just getting the Giki page up :)
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04:18:06 <wooby> been tinkering with moinmoin myself
04:18:12 <wooby> wikis are so awesome :)
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05:39:09 <GregorR-L> So, what semi-common Wiki features should I adapt as Giki plugins next :P
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06:47:39 <puzzlet> first ever written in Hangul
06:48:01 <puzzlet> http://puzzlet.org/puzzlet/%EC%95%84%ED%9D%AC~Ahui
06:50:39 <GregorR-L> I will probably fail to write anything in this language :P
06:50:46 <GregorR-L> Seeing as that I don't even have the keyboard :P
06:51:34 <GregorR-L> Does the "Hello World" program print "Hello World," or "Hello World" in Korean?
06:53:01 <GregorR-L> I assume that it can produce Hangul output?
06:53:34 <puzzlet> it receives Unicode code point and prints
06:54:21 <GregorR-L> So where's the "??, ???!"program? (If Babelfish is smart ;) )
06:55:25 <puzzlet> http://puzzlet.org/puzzlet/%EC%95%84%ED%9D%AC~%EC%95%88%EB%85%95%ED%95%98%EC%84%B8%EC%9A%94
06:55:47 <puzzlet> since "Hello, world!" literally is an ackward expression.
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07:05:11 <puzzlet> he wrote Ahui interpreter in Python
07:06:38 <tokigun> puzzlet: i have to update interpreter for new spec
07:11:45 <cpressey> pgimeno: hmm. i'm still holding the opinion that "provide wiki for esolangs" and "preserve esolangs" are two different tasks, and it just feels like this problem is being shoehorned into a solution that doesn't fit it.
07:12:16 <cpressey> ftp sites preserve content just fine.
07:12:50 <cpressey> what could be more KISS than that?
07:15:01 <puzzlet> i have seen <br>, <font>, <table> so far
07:16:37 <puzzlet> see http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/CategoryMarket?action=fullsearch&value=linkto%3A%22CategoryMarket%22&context=180
07:34:16 <lament> puzzlet: ahui sounds incredibly dirty in russian
07:40:26 <GregorR-L> Anybody want to add any more wikis to Giki's "other wiki software" list?
07:40:32 <GregorR-L> http://giki.sourceforge.net/index.php?title=other%20wiki%20software
07:41:13 <puzzlet> http://moniwiki.sourceforge.net/wiki.php
07:42:34 <puzzlet> does enabling html codes with like [[HTML(<font>)]] count?
07:42:53 <GregorR-L> Any means of injecting HTML into the wiki *shrugs*
07:44:00 <puzzlet> Cikiwiki, tokigun's ioccc entry - http://page.tokigun.net/obfuscation/cikiwiki.php
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07:54:11 <puzlet> wondering why i have been disconnected
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08:09:59 <puzzlet> musician's extinction, maybe
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13:02:26 <pgimeno> cpressey: I agree that ftp hosting can perfectly cope with mere preservation; however the wiki is also a means to publish additional information about the language(s) which would otherwise require downloading files. In that sense, graue's idea about separating the wiki and the files deals with both preservation and additional information (in a too disconnected way for my taste, but it does)
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14:33:54 <kipple_> yay. my website is finally up again! :D
14:34:00 <kipple_> (http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/)
14:47:33 <pgimeno> it seems you finally managed to teach the HD which sectors to skip
14:48:21 <pgimeno> yes, if some rebel sectors appear
14:48:24 <kipple_> I left the last 30 gigs of the drive unpartitioned this time (that is where the problems were)
14:49:23 <pgimeno> hm, it might be a problem of underventilation
14:50:07 <kipple_> I've changed the IDE cable, which was suggested on seagates web site
14:51:12 <pgimeno> I've had temperature problems with disks
14:51:42 <kipple_> maybe I should put a thermometer inside the box to check
14:52:48 <pgimeno> (and with cpu's; check http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/dsc02325.jpg )
14:53:51 <kipple_> the cpu is not the problem. It has never crashed that way (even though it doesn't have a CPU-fan)
14:57:51 <pgimeno> have you noticed the placement of the disk in the shot? there were two disks together before, but it seems that the lack of ventilation caused the temperature to raise to a point where touching the disk was even prone to causing injury
14:58:12 <pgimeno> (plus the fact that each disk raised the other's temperature)
14:58:48 <kipple_> (the others made too much noise, so I removed them)
14:59:05 <pgimeno> hum, my theory is not very acceptable for your case then
14:59:46 <kipple_> could still be too warm in the cabinet. the lack of a cpu fan could be a problem
15:01:14 <pgimeno> I kind of doubt it but of course if you check it you'll be more confident
15:02:23 <kipple_> maybe. the disk is mounted in a bracket in a 5.25" bay, so it has room on all sides as well.
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16:13:23 <pgimeno> yesterday (more than 12 hours ago anyway) someone said that Martijn van der Heide's work grabbing permissions from authors for distribution on WoS was hardly a huge work... that hit my sensible fiber
16:13:48 <pgimeno> http://www.worldofspectrum.org/permits/publishers.html
17:08:54 <wooby> so i was tinkering yesterday with moin moin, and got it working if anyone wants to check it out
17:09:42 <wooby> http://wiki.esolangs.org/
17:23:05 <wooby> i know there are other ones, and i don't want to further divide effort... so i may or may not keep it up
17:23:14 <wooby> in any case moinmoin is nice
17:23:28 <pgimeno> wait until the final decision is taken
17:24:18 <CXI> what was that about the GFDL being restrictive?
17:25:19 <lindi-> CXI: GFDL can have the 'invariant sections'
17:25:22 <malaprop> CXI: it has hassles about immutable portions.
17:25:57 <CXI> oh, sure, but the GFDL as used by wikipedia specifies no invariant sections
17:26:57 <malaprop> It also has anti-DRM requirements.
17:27:46 <malaprop> http://people.debian.org/~srivasta/Position_Statement.html
17:28:15 <CXI> mm, I remember that article
17:28:56 <CXI> the only reason I mention it is that wikipedia compatibility would be nice
17:29:03 <CXI> dual-license, maybe?
17:29:32 <CXI> actually, hmm, that would only work in one direction
17:30:09 <CXI> gragh, licensing is a pain :(
17:32:56 <malaprop> It's a pity Wikipedia has such a bad license, ya.
17:33:11 <CXI> *goes to bed instead*
17:36:39 <lindi-> malaprop: they have "or later" clause there
18:49:50 <kipple_> hey. has anybody seen the BF mandelbrot program by Eric Bosman? It's really cool!
18:50:23 <kipple_> http://www.microlyrix.com/software/bfdev/output.jpg
18:56:10 <kipple_> runs awfully slow in my java interpreter though... should have compiled it....
19:02:02 <pgimeno> kipple_: could you try if my optimizing interpreter makes it run faster?
19:03:46 <kipple_> how could it not.... my interpreter doesn't optimize
19:04:43 <kipple_> I don't have GCC on my win box. Will it comile with Visual Studio?
19:05:02 <pgimeno> don't know, maybe it does with a bit of makefile tweaking
19:06:16 <pgimeno> malaprop: I've just seen your message in lang
19:06:39 <kipple_> ha. I can run it on my linux box. pedro's optimizing compiler on a 187 MHz box vs. kipple's lousy java interpreter on a 1.4GHz box
19:07:40 <pgimeno> actually it just tokenizes (no compiling)
19:08:56 <pgimeno> anyway... I'm also curious about the BF compiler written in BF :)
19:09:10 <pgimeno> where's the BF code doing the output?
19:09:25 <pgimeno> the Mandelbrot output I mean
19:10:48 <kipple_> the java interpreter runs it about 3 times faster than brfd
19:11:05 <kipple_> considering the difference in hardware that's quite good for brfd
19:12:18 <pgimeno> hm, not bad but not as good as I expected
19:13:03 <kipple_> there's more than MHz that counts
19:13:09 <pgimeno> lament: I didn't explain myself, sorry
19:13:25 <pgimeno> I mean where to find the program
19:14:32 <pgimeno> lament: did you write Smallfuck?
19:14:32 <kipple_> http://brainfuck.kicks-ass.net/files/mandelbrot.bf
19:15:32 <pgimeno> I'm interested in whether Smetana can be done Turing-complete
19:15:43 <lament> that's exactly what i made smallfuck for
19:16:16 <pgimeno> I've read about that and apparently the conclusion was that it wasn't
19:16:39 <lament> smetana programs can only have limited "memory" since the size of memory is limited by the size of the code
19:16:59 <lament> but within that constraint a smetana program can emulate a BF machine of arbitrary size
19:17:33 <lament> i.e. it's as "turing-complete" as any physical computer :)
19:17:54 <pgimeno> can I read the whole story somewhere? what I read in the voxelperfect wiki is not accurate it seems
19:18:12 <lament> what does it say there?
19:18:33 <pgimeno> er, want to check yourself?
19:18:43 <pgimeno> basically that some programs don't stop or something
19:18:52 <pgimeno> and that it's shown to not be Turing-complete
19:19:36 <pgimeno> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Smallfuck
19:21:19 <lament> that just looks like an error in my compiler :)
19:22:53 <kipple_> pgimeno: I've started a test running both interpreters on the same machine :)
19:23:31 * lament tries to figure out how to operate the smallfuck compiler
19:23:35 <pgimeno> I'm looking in the backlog for that link with an optimizing compiler for Linux
19:23:40 <lament> man, when i wrote this i was still in high school :)
19:24:07 <kipple_> you mean this one: http://www.nada.kth.se/~matslina/awib/
19:24:40 * pgimeno bookmarks the link this time
19:27:29 <lament> ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
19:27:33 <pgimeno> a nice aspect of that compiler is its ability to compile self
19:27:46 <lament> it works perfectly in my compiler
19:27:53 <lament> terminates once it reaches the end of memory
19:28:03 <lament> so the info on wiki is simply wrong
19:28:20 <pgimeno> oh, do you mean an smetana version?
19:28:47 * pgimeno considers taking out smetana from the non-Turing-complete category
19:28:51 <lament> it sets all elements of memory to * and terminates
19:29:13 <lament> well, it's still not turing-complete :)
19:29:22 <lament> there should be a word for this particular type of ability
19:29:30 <lament> turing-complete with a memory constraint
19:29:34 <lament> maybe there even is a word
19:29:43 <lament> it seems a very common situation
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19:31:33 <pgimeno> yeah, actually bound is not a proper term
19:32:26 <malaprop> And binding already has a definition in languages, so... potential confusion.
19:32:59 <pgimeno> yup, wrong choice on my side
19:33:50 <lament> if you want i can give you the smetana/smallfuck files
19:34:22 <malaprop> lament: Which of the wikis are you editing?
19:34:58 <pgimeno> argh, that requires immediate attention
19:35:48 <pgimeno> I was writing another message to the list on the evolution of the proposals but was having a break
19:36:11 <lament> malaprop: voxelperfect
19:38:49 <pgimeno> well, it's 4 lines total, I don't think it will be annoying
19:38:53 <pgimeno> $ time ../brfd-1.0/brfd awib-1.0rc4.b < awib-1.0rc4.b > awib1
19:39:00 <pgimeno> $ time ./awib < awib-1.0rc4.b > awib2
19:40:29 <pgimeno> it's computing the mandelbrot now
19:42:32 <pgimeno> 6.77 secs... but it seems it doesn't like my terminal
19:42:45 <lindi-> what language is that ".b"? befunge?
19:43:14 <lindi-> maybe i should write fast brainfuck interpreter then
19:43:43 <pgimeno> argh, I'm really dumb... the output was the compiled code rather than the executed one
19:43:55 <kipple_> pgimeno: mandelbrot in 6.77 secs?? impressive
19:44:08 <pgimeno> that was compiling time O:)
19:44:49 <pgimeno> 11 secs will surely make more sense :)
19:45:35 <pgimeno> and yes, the output is a beautiful Mandelbrot set
19:45:46 <kipple_> the mandelbrot or something else?
19:46:37 <kipple_> I don't htink brfd will do i in 11 minutes here :)
19:47:47 <kipple_> 's obvoius that it isn't cheating, at least :)
19:48:14 <kipple_> you can see it noticably slowing down when it gets to the edges
19:48:50 <pgimeno> yeah, the set itself is the slowest
19:49:11 <kipple_> as the code is not exactly readable, it could have been nothing more than an advanced Hello WOrld
19:49:13 <lament> of course the set itself has to be the slowest
19:49:50 <pgimeno> actually such thing as a bf compiler in bf is dangerous
19:50:10 <pgimeno> it turns out to be honest but it could have generated a virus
19:50:12 <lament> not if it compiles to bf :)
19:51:38 <kipple_> and the comiled was 11 secs? wow
19:52:18 <kipple_> brfd is still running here. I estimate it will take about 25 mins...
19:53:05 <kipple_> wonder how long the unoptimizing java interpreter will take....
19:54:20 <kipple_> perhaps I should compile it to binary to get a more fair comparison
19:54:23 <pgimeno> what I'm wondering is how long would it take for a non-optimizing compiler
19:57:33 <pgimeno> calamari: have you tried how hard is a MediaWiki to set up?
19:57:58 <malaprop> MediaWiki is not hard to set up.
20:06:44 <pgimeno> have you tried it, malaprop
20:13:16 <malaprop> MediaWiki? Yes, I run a couple. None public ATM, tho.
20:16:29 <calamari> pgimeno: nope.. no time. We will just be taking dumps, anyways, though.. right? :)
20:16:59 <pgimeno> how easy is to rebuild the database?
20:17:13 <pgimeno> that question is for you, malaprop
20:17:15 <malaprop> mysql -u user -p -h host db_name < dump.sql
20:17:38 <calamari> I like MoinMoin better, so I'll be sticking with it (won't be using it for esowiki though)
20:18:06 <calamari> I'm happy to download the mediawiki dumps tho
20:18:08 <pgimeno> given an empty database that's ok, but what if all you want is to update the database with the last changes?
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20:20:16 <malaprop> A partial update is probably possible, but a drop & reload would be simpler and saner. W'ere unlikely to ever have a db that is so large it takes more than a few minutes to do this.
20:22:16 <malaprop> For an extreme example, the English Wikipedia (http://download.wikimedia.org/) is currently ~36G and can usually run in under 12h. So it's really really unlikely we'll have any kind of painful downtime.
20:22:42 <pgimeno> so do you think that this scheme is feasible?
20:23:28 <malaprop> Entirely, yes. One of the advantages of MediaWiki is that it's immensly popular and featureful -- so we'll get nearly any feature we want without having to do it ourselves, and there's no worries that the maintiners will disappear.
20:24:05 <pgimeno> I hope that graue cares a bit about the look tho
20:24:35 <kipple_> well, I want a feature to include java applets in the wiki. I think we might have to do that one ourselves...
20:24:46 <pgimeno> am I the only one who sees the left bar disturbing?
20:26:08 <pgimeno> kipple_: I don't think that the wiki is the best place to host java apps; a regular server seems to make more sense
20:26:29 <pgimeno> anyway it's probably already done
20:27:07 <pgimeno> calamari's moinmoin server does not have it and I find it cleaner
20:27:15 <kipple_> I think it could do with some chaning of it's elements, but otherwise it's nice
20:27:29 <kipple_> The language List should be in it for instance
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20:31:54 <kipple_> hmm. does that mean that my unoptimizing interpreter will take hours?
20:32:20 <pgimeno> you can try to make an estimation
20:34:08 <pgimeno> so I think that most votes here favor MediaWiki, right?
20:35:03 <pgimeno> wooby went the moinmoin way also with success
20:35:46 <pgimeno> but yes, most people agree on mediawiki
20:35:58 <pgimeno> okay, I'll follow the trend in the message
20:37:28 <pgimeno> were you reading the log or something, Gregor?
20:44:35 <pgimeno> malaprop: so are you offering to make backups?
20:48:03 <pgimeno> er, you offered that in the list; do you want to set up a mirror?
21:06:59 <pgimeno> what's the status of file uploading?
21:26:54 <malaprop> pgimeno: I'm happy to do hosting, mirror, or backup as needed. So if we have a host and want mirrors, I'll be a mirror.
21:27:47 <wooby> i also have this domain, esolangs.org... which i'd point at where we eventually decide the main site should go
21:28:31 <GregorR-L> Dern, this fopen-ing of a web site in PHP is not working right for me >_<
21:28:55 <malaprop> GregorR-L: Does the local install permit fopen_wrapper?
21:29:39 <pgimeno> malaprop: the problem is that so far there's no mirror
21:29:39 <malaprop> erm, is allow_url_fopen, not fopen_wrapper, pardon
21:30:02 <pgimeno> wooby: would you try MediaWiki?
21:30:18 <wooby> pgimeno: sure i'll have some time to set it up later tonight
21:30:27 <malaprop> pgimeno: Of voxelperfect? Shall I contact graue and work it out with him?
21:31:13 <GregorR-L> malaprop: Yeah, I use it elsewhere, I just don't know what's causing it to fail in this one situation.
21:31:44 <malaprop> Ah. Were you venting or looking for help? :)
21:32:34 <pgimeno> at the moment I need to complete the message reporting the current status
21:34:18 <pgimeno> so you don't still need to do that
21:37:56 <kipple_> pgimeno: about the left menu in MediaWiki. You can disable it if you're logged in
21:40:22 <kipple_> I would also suggest changing the default skin.
21:40:25 <malaprop> It is also possible to add skins with very different appearances.
21:40:53 <kipple_> I think the one WikiPedia uses looks best of the 5
21:41:08 <malaprop> kipple_: Yes, that's Monobook.
21:42:04 <kipple_> looks very much like WikiPedia then, but at least then it's very familiar to most
21:43:00 <pgimeno> "This [Quickbar settings] preference only works in the 'Standard' and the 'CologneBlue' skin."
21:43:30 <kipple_> well, then what's the rpoblem?
21:48:21 <pgimeno> if it only had a bit of a margin... :)
21:48:37 <malaprop> pgimeno: Yeesh, install GreaseMonkey already. :P
21:55:28 <pgimeno> nostalgia seems to be Good enough(tm)
22:01:10 <GregorR-L> Grr. I'm trying to make an InterWiki Content system, but I can't seem to fopen URLs, even though I know SF lets you >_<
22:02:02 <GregorR-L> Repeat: "even though I know SF lets you"
22:31:15 <wooby> anyone aware of a language based on the idea of data redirection, like piping?
22:31:29 <wooby> i recall seeing a BF derivative that did something similar
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23:36:45 <kipple_> pgimeno: I finished running mandelbrot.b in the java interpreter:
23:37:07 <kipple_> which means your interpreter is about 3.7 times faster
23:48:15 <pgimeno> I've tried my interpreter with the -s option and the speed difference is not significant
23:48:31 <kipple_> what does the -s option do?
23:48:43 <pgimeno> disable optimization (the s stands for slow)
23:49:08 <kipple_> what kind of optimization do you do?
23:49:31 <pgimeno> I don't remember that very well :)
23:49:59 <pgimeno> I think that it optimizes copy operations and things like that
23:50:24 <pgimeno> addition to multiple cells, zero out cells...
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23:52:07 <pgimeno> kipple_: it's embarrasing not being able to answer your question :)
23:52:18 <GregorR-L> Slash anybody else who knows if it's possible to open a web page to get its content in Javascript?
23:53:21 <pgimeno> GregorR-L: what do you mean by "get its content in JavaScript"? do you mean get the JS code which it has embedded?
23:53:57 <GregorR-L> No, I mean something like read the HTML from http://www.google.com/
23:54:24 <pgimeno> sure, wget http://www.google.com/ ; less index.html
23:54:49 <kipple_> you mean from another web page?
23:54:58 <GregorR-L> I'm not good at explaining this obviously :P
23:55:18 <pgimeno> oh, do you mean the JS code to *connect* to another page to grab the text?
23:55:42 <GregorR-L> Other than, say, opening it up in an iframe and loading that (which may or may not work)
23:56:44 <pgimeno> to me it sounds like it would be a security risk, say the page is in file://...
00:08:40 <GregorR-L> YES! I win! I can't directly access the source, but I can access the DOM, which is good enough for what I need :)
00:20:43 <pgimeno> http://www.rgagnon.com/jsdetails/js-0034.html
00:22:09 <pgimeno> my "brfd" debugger does not optimize at all :(
00:22:21 <pgimeno> I don't know what happened
00:22:47 <kipple_> well it beats the crap out of mine anyway :)
00:23:31 <pgimeno> just because of having no java, I suppose
00:23:48 <kipple_> I compiled it to binary with gcj
00:24:05 <pgimeno> I'm sure I wrote an optimizer, and spent some time debugging it
00:24:57 <pgimeno> well, probably because Java programs are intrinsicly slower
00:25:11 <kipple_> I don't think that is true
00:25:23 <kipple_> at least not for a factor of nearly 4!
00:26:25 <kipple_> it's probably superior coding :)
00:26:26 <pgimeno> my interpreter deals with chars, but Java AFAIK does not have a char type, everything is strings, right?
00:26:37 <GregorR-L> INTERWIKI CONTENT! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOH!
00:29:28 <pgimeno> oh it does? hm... I have confused it with JS then
00:30:54 <pgimeno> OTOH I've found the optimizing RUN module; I'm starting to remember that I decided to change it to avoid confusing people
00:32:25 <pgimeno> it's frustrating and embarrassing to find out that you've been unconsciously lying to people
00:38:01 <pgimeno> (confusing people because it was supposed to show how the interpreter algorithm described in my article worked)
00:40:37 <kipple_> hmm. your code looks pretty close to mine. maybe gcj is not as good at optimizing as the C compiler
00:42:37 <pgimeno> I'm putting brfd under svn control before making any further changes
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00:54:41 <kipple_> hmm. Sun's java seems to be about twice as fast as compiled gcj....
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01:40:05 <pgimeno> did my message get trhough to the list? I got a bounce and I'm not sure it's OK
01:40:14 <That_Guy> I'm looking for any sites for the beatnik language other than the authors site.
01:40:37 <pgimeno> "Evolution of the proposal"
01:40:49 <GregorR-L> That_Guy: Sorry, haven't heard of any.
01:40:51 <kipple_> ah. that list. sorry, I'm a bit slow
01:42:36 <GregorR-L> If you make one, feel free to tell us :)
01:43:39 <That_Guy> I just might... if i can find some time
01:44:29 * GregorR-L gives That_Guy a bucket of time :P
01:45:31 <That_Guy> thanks i'll need it, i'm moving soon. I never thought I had this much stuff.
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01:59:18 <pgimeno> kipple_: before I leave... try this run.c: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/run.c
01:59:47 <pgimeno> it made a difference for me at least
02:01:35 <kipple_> I'll test it later. can't right now
02:01:48 <kipple_> later meaning tomorrow....
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04:27:50 <GregorR-L> Which wiki software is on your page?
04:29:06 <malaprop> What I'd like to know is why there's a separate files dir instead of sticking it all in the wiki. :)
04:30:54 <graue> flat files are easier to browse and back up, and everything in the wiki is public domain, while stuff in the files directory may have other or ambiguous copyright
04:37:57 <GregorR-L> PHPWiki doesn't seem to support plugins >_>
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04:39:51 <GregorR-L> I am deeply saddened by PHPWiki's lack of plugins.
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05:02:49 <GregorR-L> Any MoinMoin experts want to implement IWC (InterWiki Content) in it?
05:03:32 <calamari> I thought we were going with MediaWiki.. it makes sense I think
05:03:44 <GregorR-L> This is totally unrelated to esowiki ;)
05:03:51 <GregorR-L> Plus, I'm writing the plugin for MediaWiki (I speak PHP)
05:04:04 <GregorR-L> I'm writing plugins for PHP wikis to support a simple InterWiki Content "standard", but I don't speak Python.
05:04:08 <calamari> I've been playing around a bit with Java applets.. having fun with that
05:05:00 <calamari> making a simple shell wannabe thing, with fake filesystem and editor
05:10:12 <calamari> hmm.. how do I make a blinking cursor.. hadn't considered that :)
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05:36:09 <graue> you will become very famous if your standard catches on
05:36:47 <graue> maybe you can even charge people $33 to download a copy
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06:25:20 <graue> i think all software should be under this license:
06:25:21 <graue> Use of the works is permitted provided that
06:25:21 <graue> this instrument is retained with the works.
06:25:21 <graue> DISCLAIMER: THE WORKS ARE WITHOUT WARRANTY.
06:29:46 <GregorR-L> That's the shortest version of the MIT/X Consortium license I've ever seen ;)
06:31:22 <graue> it comes from http://svn.jwp.name/law/license/experimental/ideal
07:29:33 <GregorR-L> Is it just me, or has SourceForge been slow today?
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07:49:04 <GregorR-L> I'm making an InterWiki Content "standard"
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08:00:18 <calamari> GregorR-L: I forgot to ask what you meant by that
08:09:22 <GregorR-L> You can link to a page on another wiki, and it will display in your wiki, so the contents can be merged seamlessly. There's no obvious seam of templates.
08:13:53 <GregorR-L> For an example, compare http://giki.sourceforge.net and http://giki.sourceforge.net/iwclist/index.php?title=TheGikiWiki::Index
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09:32:07 <graue> hey GregorR, you should add the article about your 2L language to the esolang wiki
09:32:23 <graue> it is obviously original research, you know
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11:18:36 <calamari_> work in progress: http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/EsoShell/
11:21:19 <calamari_> so far it has extremely primitive command line parsing (spaces only, no quotes or escapes).. but it does load and run each program.. they have their own main method
11:26:54 <calamari_> pgimeno: thanks.. I'd like to contribute to the wiki demo effort :)
11:28:23 <calamari_> this should make it easier, since it presents a comfortable interface (stdin/stdout .. you can use println), single directory filesystem.. not implemented yet, but will allow basic file operations)
11:29:10 <calamari_> I'd like to automate the help command.. but haven't found a way to do so yet (Java gets uptight about security violations when I try to get a list of the class files)
11:29:43 <calamari_> of course the file operations will be memory only.. once you leave the page, it's all gone
11:32:01 <pgimeno> sorry for my dumbness but what does the "wiki demo effort" mean?
11:32:33 <pgimeno> and, is there something that one can try apart from "help" and "ls"?
11:33:00 <calamari_> I'm implementing "echo" right now.. one min and I'll upload it :)
11:33:25 <calamari_> there was interest expressed in being able to try out esoteric languages right from the wiki
11:34:09 <calamari_> this seems less cumbersome than the usual input/output boxes and run button :)
11:36:11 <calamari_> okay echo should be up.. haven't tested iut yet :)
11:37:31 <calamari_> yay it works :) .. don't even need to reload the applet!
11:37:56 <pgimeno> heh, I did (I didn't know it wasn't needed)
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13:47:52 <kipple> pgimeno: results with the optimizing run.c:
13:51:17 <kipple> that is about 5 times faster than without optimization
13:54:23 <kipple> calamari: there are ways to get around the security limitations regarding file listings from Java applets.
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14:33:06 <pgimeno> kipple: that's better huh? :)
14:37:32 <kipple> and Sun's java runtime was twice as fast as gcj on my java interpreter
14:39:31 <pgimeno> yeah, I read that... it seems that gcj is still too preliminary as to compete with Sun's java
14:39:41 <kipple> btw, I also got a Mail delivery failure when posting to lang
14:39:51 <kipple> but I think it went through
14:39:59 <pgimeno> I've just seen your message in there, btw
14:40:36 <pgimeno> Subversion copes with the issues you state
14:41:42 <pgimeno> you may at least know that when the repository is updated, the local copies synchronize by receiving only the changes
14:42:49 <kipple> are the files stored in a manner that lets them be accessed independently via HTTP?
14:43:47 <kipple> well, then it sounds like we're set :)
14:43:56 <pgimeno> see e.g. http://svn.collab.net/repos/svn/
14:44:37 <pgimeno> that's the svn Apache module in action, that seems to be what graue has in the server
14:45:18 <pgimeno> svn is strict wrt users; I think the maintainance is done by hand
14:46:58 <pgimeno> that's a potential problem: if graue and most or all of the initial editors lose interest, how are users going to be added?
14:47:12 <pgimeno> that's a very pessimistic point of view though
14:49:03 <pgimeno> I suppose that even if that happens there's always the option of switching to a different host
14:54:58 <kipple> hmm. yes. that's kind of the whole point of this project... :)
15:06:07 <malaprop> BTW, an svn repository can't be mirrored directly by clients; you need the svn admin to dump the repos.
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15:16:45 <pgimeno> malaprop: yeah, but keeping the whole history is not the goal, just the files. A working copy is good enough.
15:17:18 <malaprop> Then under the 'fewer moving parts' ideal, files in the wiki would be better.
15:18:00 <pgimeno> a dump similar to the mysql one could also be done anyway
15:18:12 <kipple> keeping the whole history would be nice though
15:18:14 <pgimeno> that's just two files to transfer
15:18:25 <pgimeno> instead of one plus a tree
15:18:38 <kipple> but a dump of the files could potentially be quite big
15:19:11 <kipple> and you could put the db-dumps in the file tree, and do it in one op
15:22:22 <pgimeno> well, actually yes, but I doubt it makes sense
15:23:10 <pgimeno> that would mean committing the dump into the repository each week
15:23:32 <malaprop> pgimeno: I think he was saying the svn dump should be copied into the wiki tree.
15:23:51 <kipple> hmm. not sure how to do it best
15:24:56 <kipple> wont the wiki have to have a files section anyway? At least to store images
15:25:29 <kipple> then that has to be backed up as well!
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15:25:47 <malaprop> That will be in the wiki tree, we've already planned for it.
15:27:35 <kipple> how about having a folder which contains the following: the current files from the svn, the files section of the wiki, and the current db-dump
15:27:54 <kipple> then you just sync that one folder, and get everything
15:28:28 <pgimeno> I think that a "svn up" is a very easy way to be in sync with the files section
15:28:40 <pgimeno> no need to download individual files et al
15:29:19 <kipple> but would require the user to have svn, right?
15:29:37 <pgimeno> only the people who are making backups
15:29:45 <kipple> yes, that is what I meant
15:30:09 <kipple> one more software requirement...
15:30:57 <pgimeno> I'm using svn regularly, it's pretty easy to use
15:31:11 <kipple> PS: I don't mean to sound overly negative here. I'm just thinking aloud...
15:32:24 <pgimeno> I mean, could it be used to upload files as well as to downoad them?
15:32:24 * kipple has never actually _used_ rsync....
15:32:40 <pgimeno> me neither... well, I've used rsync-backup but that's not the same
15:32:47 <malaprop> rsync command means 'make my local dir like that remote one'. Is one-way.
15:33:53 <pgimeno> ftp + rsync is the only simple alternative to svn I can figure out
15:34:57 <CXI> well, to me it seems obvious that either you want incremental updates, in which case you need other software, or you use full updates, in which case it can work with just about anything
15:35:10 <malaprop> I don't mean to be rude, but I think you guys are way overthinking the setup.
15:36:40 <pgimeno> you're probably right, malaprop... what do you suggest?
15:38:02 <malaprop> A MediaWiki installed somewhere doing daily SQL/image dumps. Let everyone who wants to grab the dumps for mirror/backup/making of birdcage liner. Done.
15:39:26 <pgimeno> I must be missing something... what about the files dir?
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15:39:51 <kipple> I think the files in MediaWiki goes the same place as the images
15:39:53 <malaprop> MediaWiki internally treats all files as images. Is a legacy of how it developed, but they're all in one place.
15:40:26 <kipple> but it has restrictions on what file type can be uploaded, right?
15:41:00 <malaprop> Yes, and trivial to modify or remove.
15:41:24 <kipple> ok. do you have to allow each type, or can you just allow everything?
15:41:31 <pgimeno> are the files in the database too?
15:41:49 <malaprop> No, keeping large binary blobs in dbs is generally a bad idea.
15:42:20 <pgimeno> so that's anyway a separate download
15:43:00 <malaprop> wget example.com/sqldump.today.sql example.com/filedump.today.tar.bz2
15:43:51 <kipple> that is indeed a simple solution
15:43:56 <pgimeno> how is that different to holding the files separately?
15:44:04 <pgimeno> there are the license issues
15:44:16 <malaprop> You automatically get all the MediaWiki interface niceties for dealing with files.
15:45:00 <malaprop> And the license issues are solved entirely by putting "This file is copyright by so-and-so" in the image/file caption. WikiPedia does this to pull in images under CreativeCommons licenses.
15:45:05 <kipple> wikipedia has files with different licences, so I don't think it is a problem,
15:45:37 <pgimeno> let's see if graue comments on this
15:46:46 <pgimeno> I'm not opposed to keeping the files in the wiki
15:47:28 <pgimeno> I'm just concerned about potential issues that may arise in future
15:47:50 <pgimeno> changing later is usually far more work than planning before
15:59:17 <kipple> that is true. But this approach doesn't require ANY particular software for taking a backup. Which I think is very nice
16:09:13 <pgimeno> that depends on the point of view actually
16:09:28 <pgimeno> you can download the subversion tree with wget via web, for example
16:10:50 <pgimeno> what makes it different is the upload interface
16:11:57 <pgimeno> in the case of ftp, everybody is already used to it, I think
16:15:21 <GregorR> graue: I added 2L to calamari's esowiki, so I guess now I add it to yet another :P
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17:06:27 <kipple> on file uploads: what's nice with the mediawiki approach, is that there is only one set of user accounts to administer. And they are part of the mysql-dump too
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21:25:34 <calamari> file system is ready.. can create file, but can't edit them yet (next step) http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/EsoShell/
21:27:05 <pgimeno> fortunately I opened it under a different profile
21:27:35 <pgimeno> at work (windows + mozilla) it worked
21:27:39 <calamari> wonder why it's not crashing here
21:28:10 <calamari> I have Java 1.5, but I'm pretty sure the latest I'm using is 1.4
21:28:20 <pgimeno> there can be many reasons... jre version... mozilla version...
21:29:41 <calamari> does this page crash? http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/uiswing/components/applet.html
21:30:21 <calamari> hmm, okay I feel better then :)
21:30:50 <calamari> maybe it's because we're using Swing
21:31:24 <calamari> what jre and mozilla are you running?
21:32:11 <pgimeno> mozilla 1.7.7-2; I don't remember where to look to see the java version
21:32:47 <kipple> calamari: nice shell :)
21:33:29 <kipple> so, what do you have planned for it?
21:34:33 <calamari> kipple: still need to implement file i/o. I'd like better parsing (escape sequences, quoted strings), simple i/o redirection with files, an editor
21:35:08 <calamari> the editor I'm wondering about. right now I jave a line editor planned, but maybe a full screen editor is better?
21:36:10 <calamari> one problem with applets is that there is no copy/paste because of the security system.. unless you run linux, middle mouse button ;)
21:37:05 <calamari> hmm, never mind.. paste seems to work. Maybe it's just copy that is disallowed
21:37:10 <kipple> didn't know that. how is that a security issue?
21:37:45 <kipple> umm. I am able to copy
21:37:58 <kipple> but only from the prompt
21:38:06 <lindi-> calamari: hmm, i don't seem to be able to type anything to that textarea with gcjappletviewer
21:39:11 <kipple> calamari: I think the problem is that you can't select properly because you move the cursor as soon you click any where else than the prompt
21:39:20 <calamari> lindi-: I'm overriding some of the methods, maybe it doesn't understand DocumentHandler's yet
21:39:56 <lindi-> calamari: can you put the source somewhere so i can report bugs to gnu classpath?
21:40:03 <calamari> needed to prevent free scrolling, otherwise the terminal effect is lost
21:40:26 <calamari> lindi-: sure, but there are 0 comments, so it's somewhat ugly atm
21:40:58 <lindi-> calamari: i'll just strip it and try to create reduced testcases for individual bugs
21:42:19 <calamari> lindi-: http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/EsoShell/EsoShell.tar.gz
21:43:31 <calamari> aha.. it didn't go where I thought it did
21:43:39 <calamari> http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/EsoShell.tar.gz
21:45:24 <calamari> hmm, doesn't work in IE either.. need to work out these bugs :)
21:47:37 <kipple> what doesn't work in IE? here it works in IE, Mozilla and Opera
21:48:36 <calamari> hmm, cool. It tells me, Main.EsoShell class not found... running it under QEmu, but that shouldn't matter
21:50:39 <kipple> maybe you should make the textarea read only, and then use key-events for input. That way you could let the user select anything regardless of the cursor
21:50:46 <lindi-> calamari: keyTyped does not seem to be called at all..
21:51:18 <calamari> kipple: will I still have a blinking cursor that way?
21:51:46 <kipple> No. but I think you could make your own...
21:53:21 <kipple> either painting it directly, or inserting/removing a rectangular character every half a sec or something
21:54:53 <calamari> and also I don't know how to do that stuff
21:55:24 <calamari> I've painted images to make a screen.. but that'd require a lot of downloading
21:56:07 <calamari> since they are individual PNGs
21:58:44 <kipple> how about this: textarea.setText(textarea.getText(0, textarea.getText().length()-1) + "_");
21:59:03 <kipple> alternate with: textarea.setText(textarea.getText(0, textarea.getText().length()-1) + " ");
21:59:19 <calamari> why, though? is there something wrong with the way I have it? :)
22:00:09 <kipple> only that you can't select properly. and it was you who brought it up :)
22:02:07 <kipple> not a big deal, but nice if you're going to have an editor
22:02:41 <calamari> the editor itself will be okay, because it'll be past the prompt
22:03:20 <calamari> I think I have to go with a full screen editor.. it's what people are used to
22:05:37 <kipple> the problem is, you're not going to be able to save anything...
22:05:58 <kipple> security restrictions in applets
22:06:26 <calamari> it's a fake filesystem I'm writing for the applet
22:06:44 <kipple> in other words: you're not going to be able to save anything ;)
22:07:02 <kipple> I mean for the next time you load the console
22:07:33 <kipple> well, not totally, actually
22:08:14 <kipple> you *could* have some CGI store the files....
22:08:28 <calamari> now we're getting complicated :)
22:10:37 <kipple> or pass them to a file upload form through HTTP....
22:11:28 <calamari> remember that the files are on the local machine already
22:11:33 <kipple> anyway. not sure if it is important. depends on what it's going to be used for...
22:12:01 <kipple> yes, but the applet will never be allowed to store them there
22:16:02 <pgimeno> I think that applets can communicate with javascript somehow and javascript can store cookies
22:16:52 <kipple> I think applets can communicate with a browser directly to some extent as well
22:16:57 <calamari> pgimeno: yes, that's what I'm seeing too :)
22:17:13 <calamari> for example: https://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/lists/advanced-java/2000-August/012042.html
22:18:23 <pgimeno> I've never written an applet though, I can't be of much help here
22:19:12 <calamari> I think cookies have size limit restrictions
22:23:52 <malaprop> std. max size for cookies is 4k
22:24:05 <kipple> about that example: where does this JSObject class come from? can't find it in the API
22:26:01 <calamari> dunno, I saw this page, though: http://java.sun.com/products/plugin/1.3/docs/jsobject.html
22:26:53 <kipple> ah. it's a third party package
22:30:01 <calamari> cookies can be 4k, including the site name storage :)
22:30:36 <kipple> well, then you have 80k storage :D
22:31:30 <calamari> I think I'm going to push the priority on this down a little
23:15:19 <pgimeno> we've discussed previously about why not allowing uploading the files via MediaWiki
23:16:30 <pgimeno> the main objection is that svn is just another piece of software to have to make the mirroring
23:17:31 <graue> it's a good way to allow multiple editors to add/update files
23:17:35 <calamari> what am I writing this applet for, then? :)
23:23:47 <calamari> I personally think not allowing files is a terrible decision
23:23:47 <graue> either i, or anyone else who wants to bother using subversion, can always make a .tar.bz2 for others to use for backups
23:23:47 <graue> calamari, the files directory will be separate from the wiki, but it will exist
23:23:47 <pgimeno> in fact it already does :)
23:23:47 <calamari> I remember one of the reasons we chose MediaWiki was that it allowed file uploading
23:23:47 <pgimeno> graue: I actually expected that there would be more files in zip/tarball form than in text form
23:23:47 <pgimeno> I don't expect the files in there to change at all
23:23:47 <graue> calamari, wiki is not good for organizing files into hierarchies
23:23:47 <graue> the file repository is like /language, /language/impl, /language/doc, /language/src, etc
23:23:47 <graue> if anything needs to be visually illustrated on the wiki, images can be uploaded
23:23:47 <graue> also, everything in the wiki should be PD just to avoid confusion, even files
23:24:01 <calamari> graue: I don't see the problem
23:24:34 <calamari> just allow ppl to upload files where they think it's appropriate.. if they upload in the bf page, it's probably going to be a bf related file
23:25:26 <graue> uploads are not in a page; they just wind up in a global namespace
23:25:29 <pgimeno> uploads can be restricted to certain users, right?
23:26:35 <calamari> graue: that sounds like a limitatiuon of MediaWiki then.. MoinMoin allowed attachments on any page
23:26:41 <pgimeno> graue: that's not bad for tarball distributions; it's bad for tree structures la Cat's Eye
23:27:05 <pgimeno> calamari: I think he means that there's one single files dir, no subdirs
23:27:25 <graue> why would we have tarball distributions? most programs in brainfuck, intercal, wierd, snusp, etc are single files
23:27:55 <calamari> pgimeno: okay.. but I don't see why that causes a problem either, really
23:27:59 <graue> maybe for certain more sophisticated implementations, but not for programs written in most esoteric languages
23:28:20 <pgimeno> hum, I was thinking more about the languages themselves than about the programs written with them
23:28:28 <calamari> graue: oh yeah.. don't forget to turn on Java, unless it's already on :)
23:29:20 <graue> in what, my browser?
23:30:03 <graue> don't embed it, you'll freeze everyone's computer for 10 seconds loading it even if they aren't interested
23:30:10 <graue> link to an external page that has it embedded
23:30:33 <calamari> it can be on a separate wiki page
23:30:50 <pgimeno> calamari: about namespace collision: say, hello.bf - is it a befunge program or a brainfuck program?
23:31:13 <calamari> pgimeno: I wonder if it'll tell you when you upload that the file already exists?
23:31:43 <graue> .b is brainfuck, .bf is befunge
23:31:52 <pgimeno> but that's a problem of lack of a directory hierarchy
23:32:22 <pgimeno> graue: it was just an example of namespace collision :)
23:32:24 <calamari> graue: so, how about having the applet on it's own wiki page.. that way it's not loaded unless the person wants it.. is that cool?
23:32:57 <graue> it's fine, but why does it need to be on a wiki page?
23:33:17 <kipple> the point is to be able to have enerything in one place...
23:33:38 <kipple> why not have it on a wiki page?
23:35:06 <pgimeno> I don't know how are special pages handled... if they can be special in that they support any html, a special page can probably do it
23:35:10 <graue> i'm thinking wiki = information, files = code
23:36:48 <kipple> as long as where the files are kept can be easily linked to from the wiki, and easily uploaded to I'm happy
23:37:00 <kipple> and easily backed up, of course
23:37:12 <calamari> I still don't see why the normal user can't upload files
23:38:03 <kipple> there are potential security risks: what if someone uploads a php file....
23:39:05 <calamari> how would it become executable?
23:39:38 <graue> the way it's usually set up files with a php extension are automatically executed
23:39:42 <kipple> if it's on the web server, wouldn't it be executed?
23:39:47 <calamari> yeah.. the only exception that I know of at the moment would be for the java applets
23:40:24 <kipple> exception to what? I'm not sure what you are referring to there...
23:43:19 <calamari> oh.. I meant that attachments should just be downloadable files unless its an applet
23:44:03 <kipple> I don't understand. applets are not single files. they have at least two... (HTML and class/jar)
23:45:56 <calamari> well I assumed it would be a jar.. someone in here sid that mediawiki supported running java applets.. that's what I'm basing this on :)
23:46:11 <calamari> if that's wrong.. then sorry :)
23:46:56 <kipple> as I see it, you should both be able to download the applet's jar, or run it on the wiki.
23:49:44 <pgimeno> I wonder what happened to my java interpreter :(
23:50:50 <kipple> interpreting java? or an interpreter written in java?
23:56:18 <kipple> graue: did you see my last entry on Talk: Language list?
23:56:38 <kipple> I think I found the way to put the list in the navigation menu
23:57:00 <kipple> but I didn't have permissions to test it
23:59:36 <pgimeno> yay! I've run the java applet in the original profile (after saving my tabs) and it worked... it's like java does not like multiple instances
00:01:55 <calamari> uh oh.. phone call.. bbiaw. graue: thanks btw.. sorry if I came across a little sharp earlier
00:02:46 <graue> that's ok, you actually did not
00:03:53 <pgimeno> so graue, my concern is with language distributions rather than programs writtem in the languages; they're usually (mostly) zips/tarballs
00:04:39 <graue> most brainfuck implementations are single files
00:04:49 <graue> the modular SNUSP interpreter and tracer are each single files
00:04:57 <graue> the wierd implementations are each single .c files
00:05:57 <pgimeno> well, malbolge is in both zip and tarball; true too; false too IIRC; my own brainfuck debugger...
00:06:09 <graue> are they mostly small enough to be stored unrolled, like 4 or 5 files in a directory?
00:06:31 <kipple> why store them unrolled?
00:06:54 <pgimeno> I think that they should be distributed as the author pretended, i.e. full distros
00:07:21 <graue> if they're stored unrolled, you can check out the whole thing via svn and voila, you have a big esoteric language distribution ready to use
00:07:28 <graue> but maybe that's not practical
00:07:40 <kipple> hmm. that could be very practical
00:08:05 <pgimeno> in my view, preservation includes holding the original distributions
00:08:07 <kipple> but you should also have the option of downloading the archive.
00:08:38 <kipple> if you have to download each file individually it gets a bit tedious if there are many files
00:09:19 <malaprop> And presenting individual files is a modification of the original package, invoking clauses in licenes.
00:10:09 <graue> i doubt that the unmodified output of "tar xzvf whatever.tar.gz" really counts as a derivative work
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00:11:14 <malaprop> If it's different, it's a derivative.
00:11:44 <graue> most licenses would not care about that, provided all the files were there, and no new files
00:12:15 <pgimeno> I think I've seen GPLed languages
00:13:03 <graue> the GPL would be an example of a license for which this doesn't matter
00:14:05 <kipple> graue: if we don't use the mediawiki for file storage, how would upload work? web interface, or something else?
00:17:08 <graue> you would checkout svn, copy a file into your tree and svn add it
00:17:11 <graue> or just send it to me to do that
00:17:21 <kipple> hmm. that's not very user friendly
00:18:01 <graue> sending it to me is pretty user-friendly, no?
00:18:28 <pgimeno> depends on how friendly you are ;)
00:19:23 <kipple> I would prefer a solution that doesn't have to go through a middle man...
00:19:54 <kipple> but wont we have to ha file upload enabled in the wiki anyway to allow images?
00:20:04 <pgimeno> ftp might be the other alternative
00:20:33 <pgimeno> why am I asking... if there's svn there must be ftp
00:20:36 <graue> ftp isn't really user-friendly
00:21:11 <graue> much less than http, by which you can get the files now
00:21:33 <GregorR> I think the superior way to have a metadistribution of languages would be a bunch of .tar.gzs with a script to extract, compile and organize them all.
00:21:35 <pgimeno> i might disagree, kipple ;) but anyway many people are used to uploading their pages via ftp to the web server
00:21:37 <kipple> I meant ftp for upload. you could still get them by ftp
00:21:55 <GregorR> Umm, lesse ... an extracted archive is not a derivitive work because the copyright is over the code, not the archive ...
00:22:49 <GregorR> And as per file storage, my personal preference is within the wiki, seems kludgy to have to upload it via some other means.
00:22:51 <kipple> argh. get them by HTTP I meant
00:22:58 <graue> sftp with accounts may be available, anonymous ftp is not available (at least, i can't provide it)
00:23:06 <malaprop> I also vote for putting files in MediaWiki.
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00:23:28 <GregorR> I wasn't here, I was at work.
00:23:59 <pgimeno> malaprop: the objection to mediawiki is the lack of hierarchy
00:24:23 <kipple> but if the files are zips/tarballs, is that a problem? you only need to get one file
00:24:45 <kipple> which should be available on the appropriate wiki page
00:25:03 <graue> many files are not, though
00:25:20 <graue> language distributions, yes, sometimes; programs written in the languages, generally, no
00:25:33 <pgimeno> graue: I expect only (trusted) editors to upload files, not anonymous people; sftp is ok to me
00:25:39 <GregorR> I don't think there's any need for the FILES to be in a hierarchy - the hierarchy is in the design of the Wiki. They can just be sitting in one big directory, so long as the wiki makes their purposes obvious.
00:25:45 <kipple> I still don't see the big problem. The programs should be listed on the language page
00:26:12 <kipple> GregorR: Excactly what I think as well
00:26:48 <graue> kipple: I intended the articles to be like those on Wikipedia, overviews of the languages, with links to detailed examples, programs, and implementations in other places
00:27:06 <graue> I don't think a language article should be updated just because someone wrote a new program in that language
00:27:29 <kipple> ah. but I thought the point was to preserve content from other pages in case they disappear
00:27:45 <graue> that is the point of the files directory
00:27:56 <graue> with the wiki, we generally can't do that anyway, because the content from those other pages is not PD
00:27:58 <kipple> I see no reason to separate the two...
00:28:05 <calamari> graue: the files directory becomes useless if it is just a big lump of files
00:28:20 <graue> why? what's useless about that?
00:28:23 <kipple> not if you can conveniently link to them from wiki pages
00:29:16 <calamari> so the article would still be updated, with a link to the new file
00:29:26 <GregorR> Humm - if we want to properly preserve dead pages, I don't think doing that IN the wiki is possible...it would need to be a .zip of the page anyway.
00:29:38 <kipple> as for programs in esolangs, I think there should be a separate page for each language with a bunch of programs, where people can upload their own code
00:30:09 <kipple> gregor: yes, but the question is still where that zip should be stored ;)
00:30:49 <calamari> kipple: i agree.. otherwise people won't go through the trouble of begging for permission to upload each and every file
00:31:27 <kipple> yes. I fear that if you have to contact an admin to upload, most will not bother
00:31:49 <kipple> however, allowing everyone to upload whatever is problematic as well.... ;(
00:31:55 <calamari> it seems reasonable to allow people that have accounts to upload files
00:32:59 <calamari> it's not hard to sign up for an account.. took me less than 30 seconds :)
00:34:25 <kipple> I think the restrictions on upload should be on size and file type, not whether you are a user (as calamari said, that takes only 30 secs to fix, so there's not much security in that anyway)
00:35:10 <calamari> kipple: good point.. so they can block php, html, perl, etc
00:35:30 <calamari> if they have a legit program that is in php, it can be zipped
00:38:32 <malaprop> Why would you block PHP, HTML, perl?
00:38:54 <kipple> because the server would try to execute them
00:39:16 <kipple> though I think you can block that in the apache config
00:39:24 <malaprop> So use a .htaccess to serve them instead. Is not at all difficult.
00:40:56 <calamari> I know I don't have that level of control over my web hosting.. but maybe graue does?
00:41:35 <GregorR> Rather than having a blacklist there should be a whitelist ...
00:42:03 <GregorR> Only allow images (png, jpg, jpeg, gif), archives (zip, tar, tar.gz, tar.bz2), and docs (ps, pdf)
00:42:04 <kipple> that would create problems for source code in a lot of esolangs...
00:42:15 <GregorR> Anything that's not one of those formats can be .tar'd or .zip'd.
00:42:42 <GregorR> Mayhaps I should read the log *shrugs*
01:00:13 <pgimeno> it seems we won't have the files issue sorted out today
01:06:25 <GregorR> I know how we can all agree on how the files are set up.
01:06:37 <GregorR> Whatever kipple says next will officially be however the files are set up.
01:06:56 <GregorR> See, it's simple, just hold one person accountable 8-D
01:07:09 <GregorR> Nobody except that one poor schmuck feels bad if it doesn't work right 8-D
01:07:24 <GregorR> And yes, Giki is of course the solution to all problems :P
01:07:56 <malaprop> kipple: I'll give you a dollar if you say MediaWiki.
01:08:25 <malaprop> So now you have an excuse if it all goes terribly wrong -- you can say I blinded you with promises of riches.
01:08:28 <GregorR> Apparently two people now accept that as a method of determination, that's almost a majority ;)
01:09:01 <GregorR> kipple is now afraid to talk :P
01:09:30 <malaprop> "I'm honored" is not a way to set up files.
01:11:05 <kipple> OK. Here it comes. *drumrolls*
01:11:40 <kipple> BOS : http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/programs/bf/bf.html
01:13:02 <malaprop> kipple: Well, if you're volunteering to write the TCP/IP stack...
01:14:10 <GregorR> "I'm honored :D" is the method.
01:14:39 <GregorR> We must decode this, like a biblical phrase that has little meaning but in the hands of an idiot can mean that God hates Jews.
01:16:07 <kipple> I'm just the prophet. I'll leave interpretation to you guys....
01:16:43 <kipple> (or you could write an interpreter for it.... )
01:17:13 <lament> of course god hates jews
01:17:28 <lament> i'm surprised there's no god-hating-jews esoteric language yet
01:17:31 <lament> maybe i should write one
01:17:50 * GregorR shaves off a significant chunk of his nose, just-in-case.
01:18:11 <lament> i don't think nose is the right body part
01:18:28 <kipple> I considered writing a language once were the syntax is in the form of Commandments...
01:18:59 <kipple> Thou shalt write "Hello World!" to StdOut
01:19:00 <GregorR> I think a "begot" language would be fun.
01:19:12 <GregorR> The stack begot a register.
01:19:16 <GregorR> The register begot a value.
01:19:25 <GregorR> And the value lived for 300 years, and had 15 children.
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03:56:17 <GregorR> Using the "I'm honored :D" method?
03:56:50 <calamari> nope.. no floppies involved here :)
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04:29:27 <graue> does anyone have a copy of that aura language page (that was from nhi.netfirms.com/aura.html)?
04:29:54 <graue> the wayback machine doesn't have it anymore, and subversion somehow corrupted my saved copy
04:31:42 <calamari> I don't have it.. need to use the phone bbl
04:34:49 <graue> never mind, i figured it out
04:35:08 <graue> it seems to be a bug in my browser; the file was transferred gzipped and was not decoded
04:38:23 <GregorR-L> http://giki.sourceforge.net/index.php?title=subwindow%20rendering%20plugin#
04:46:06 <graue> Transmitting file data ....................svn: Commit failed (details follow):
04:46:06 <graue> svn: At least one property change failed; repository is unchanged
04:46:17 <graue> i hate esoteric revision control systems
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04:55:03 <graue> by the way, are you aware that you misspelled instantiate repeatedly in the ORK documentation?
04:55:17 <GregorR-L> It's too late now, since it's a built in function 8-D
04:55:36 <GregorR-L> So I'm just going to live in a world where instanCe translates to instanCiate.
04:55:45 <GregorR-L> Which would make infinitely more sense.
04:55:47 <graue> what's the mime type for a .tar.bz2?
04:56:02 <graue> instanciate looks wimpy
04:56:46 <GregorR-L> I don't think it would have a different mime type for .tar.bz2 vs .bz2 >_> <_<
04:59:06 <graue> i remember seeing application/x-gzipped-tar or something like that
04:59:39 <graue> oh well, all svn really needs to know is it's binary
05:00:35 <graue> yeah that should be what it thinks it is now
05:01:38 <graue> ORK is now available from http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/
07:33:09 * GregorR-L just wrote a CamelCase plugin for Giki :)
07:58:25 <GregorR-L> But more because I want Giki to be pluginnable to basically anything anybody could ever want it to be.
07:58:54 <GregorR-L> Anyway, sleep for me, have work in the morning.
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14:12:18 <kipple> is that your opinion in the Wiki debate, or just a way of saying hello? ;)
14:12:33 <jix> just a way of saying hello ^^^
14:13:04 <jix> moin == mojen dach (plattdeutsch) == guten tag(german) == good day
14:13:47 <jix> i'm developing a new esoteric language.. and i tried to not reinvent an existent language
14:14:15 <CXI> that's always my problem
14:14:20 <kipple> yes, that is always hard to know
14:15:11 <jix> the syntax seems to be like any 2d language.. but the concept is a different one
14:15:50 <CXI> so easy to accidentally write another BF, another PATH or another Beatnik
14:16:25 <jix> is there any language that needs 4 threads for anding 2 bits ?
14:16:56 <jix> not system threads... but it behaves like 3 threads
14:17:35 <jix> one thread not's input a one not's input b one or's not(a) and not(b) and one not's the result of the or
14:17:45 <kipple> once you go multithreaded the chance of reinventing another drops drastically
14:18:01 <CXI> yeah, there aren't terribly many threaded esolangs
14:18:27 <kipple> and even fewer that forces you to use threads
14:18:43 <CXI> that's just mean :P
14:19:21 <CXI> I had an idea ages ago about a multithreaded path variant
14:19:57 <jix> i think an optimized compiler may get as fast as an bf interpreter..
14:20:02 <GregorR> On the way to work today, I think I'll write a Giki plugin to parse esoteric languages. Just to be mean :p
14:20:19 <CXI> I should write an esoteric meta-language
14:20:41 <GregorR> jix: So, is the function of operators overloaded by thread# or something like that?
14:20:54 <jix> GregorR: you know digital circuits ?
14:21:12 <GregorR> To a very, very limited degree 8-D
14:21:16 <GregorR> I understand and, or, not, etc.
14:21:18 <jix> you can build anything with just 2 gates.. OR and NOT or AND and NOT
14:21:43 <jix> and every gate processes at every time it's input.. thus every gate is a thread
14:21:52 <jix> and that's my language
14:22:06 <GregorR> Hmm, that's very strange, I'll have to check that out
14:22:20 <CXI> actually, I just remembered an idea I had ages ago
14:22:32 <CXI> a language based entirely on mathematics, with no if statements
14:22:47 <CXI> it's hard to explain exactly what I mean, but lemme find a demonstration
14:22:58 <jix> i'm at 13 line of codes..^^ but it's weekend so i have plenty of time...
14:23:09 <CXI> not based on functionality exactly
14:23:53 <CXI> diff = (targetangle -_radaraim) % 360
14:23:54 <CXI> radarright( diff + 360 * ((diff % 181 - diff) % 180) )
14:24:02 <kipple> jix: so do you have an example of syntax?
14:24:08 <CXI> that was from some robot battle code I wrote ages ago
14:24:26 <jix> http://rafb.net/paste/results/lIodw042.html
14:24:54 <jix> that is a "standardlib" implementing: buffer , 0 , 1 , & , ^
14:25:28 <kipple> well, that certainly looks esoteric :)
14:25:43 <jix> oh it has operator overloading.. you can define a 3-input or ...
14:26:26 <jix> the problem is turing completeness.. with 2 instructions it is as turing complete as BF with limited memory
14:26:53 <jix> with a 3rd binary stack instructions it is turing complete (because i know how to implement a BF interpreter)
14:30:19 <CXI> if anyone's trying to puzzle out that radar code, it rotates left or right based on whether the amount to rotate is over 180 or not
14:32:51 <CXI> if diff <= 180 then the whole statement will be diff + (diff - diff) % 180 * 360, which is just diff + 0... if diff = 182 then (diff % 181 - diff) is 1 - diff, so -181 % 180 is -1, so it becomes (diff - 360)
14:33:06 <CXI> in essence replacing an if statement with a multiply-by-zero
14:34:09 <CXI> I think (but can't be sure) that you should be able to do something similar for any number, and thus make a totally ifless language based on the modulus operator
14:34:32 <CXI> loops, though, I'm not sure about
14:35:27 <CXI> yeah, but that feels a little too much like a functional language
14:35:45 <jix> how to terminate recursion without ifs ?
14:36:27 <CXI> hmm, maybe I could make a couple of special variables
14:36:31 <jix> and we all know how to unroll recursion with loops and queues.. don't we ;)
14:36:52 <CXI> I'd need to for I/O anyway
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15:00:44 <kipple> jix: your language certainly looks intersting.
15:01:20 * kipple likes languages where you can construct everything from a few atoms
15:01:35 <CXI> mm, feels very elegant
15:01:49 <kipple> let us know when you have something close to a spec...
15:02:51 <jix> the interpreter is going to be the spec ^^^
15:04:36 <kipple> jix: about these ^^^ you use. What's their meaning? Is this some IRC slang I'm not familiar with?
15:04:37 <jix> hmmm thats a new bug in xchat-aqua if i type ^^ and press return it prints ^^^
15:05:28 <jix> and ^^ is something like ;)
15:08:24 <CXI> ^^ is an anime smiley
15:09:19 <CXI> hey, a smiley based language would be briefly funny
15:09:28 <jix> there is one
15:09:50 <jix> oh i forgot that i'm away sry ..
15:09:51 <kipple> thought about that myself, but there is one alrady
15:10:00 <CXI> otherwise a damn fine plan
15:28:08 <CXI> ascii flowchart based language
15:28:09 <CXI> that'd be neat
15:33:10 <kipple> I did start something similar in Powerpoint a while back
15:33:42 <kipple> after all: why do we always have to limit ourselves to text files :)
15:34:05 <CXI> I was considering doing it graphically, but that'd be tricky
15:34:26 <CXI> plus you could probably represent more complex ideas more easily with graphics
15:34:51 <kipple> If I get around to do it again, I would probably use OpenOffice presentation files
15:35:33 <jix> why not post-script compatible files
15:36:00 <kipple> because I'm not familiar with post-script
15:36:27 <jix> it's very easy..but it's a programming language on it's own
15:36:59 <kipple> but one of the main points was to avoid writing code
15:37:01 <CXI> hopefully without godel complexity :P
15:38:47 <jix> kipple: hmm yes.. piet is code less
15:39:03 <kipple> yes. I know. It's the only one I know about
15:39:16 <kipple> (except un-esoteric langs of course)
15:40:16 <kipple> the presentation file format is nice, because it is divided into pages. The first page would hold the main program, and the other pages could hold modules
16:12:16 <CXI> making it image based would be fun
16:12:18 <CXI> png programs :D
16:12:56 <kipple> yeah. the world needs more non-ascii languages...
16:21:00 <jix> hmm i think i need to write a spec for my language.. because no one can read my code (it is written in ruby an it's not easy to write write only code in ruby..)
16:22:49 <kipple> a spec is always nice :)
16:25:08 <jix> and i'm going to write the spec in german and my own esoteric (non programming) language..
16:26:12 <jix> and there is no spec for my language.. so have fun learning german ;)
16:26:41 <jix> english is so much easier than german
16:27:50 <jix> hmm.. sometimes i think german is an esoteric language
16:29:35 <kipple> hah. well, it has an excessively complicated syntax...
16:29:54 <CXI> german is simple if you speak my kind of german
16:30:04 <CXI> which is just 'das' followed by whatever you would say in english
16:30:49 <jix> and the "methods" get spelled different if they have different arguments .. and the arguments get spelled different if they have different methods and....
16:31:59 <jix> it's like having strcmp(a,b) stringcmp{A "Hallo"} strcomp[``Hallo'',$0b] ;)
16:32:59 <kipple> jix: are you german, btw?
16:33:01 <jix> oh and a funny german sentence: die, die die , die die diesel tanks angezündet haben, gefangen haben, sind schlau. it's valid syntax
16:33:40 <kipple> ouch. what does it mean?
16:33:56 <kipple> my german is not good enough for that kind of sentences...
16:34:34 <jix> it's: those who catched those who ...
16:35:12 <jix> 5 die's isn't that common but 3 are
16:35:48 <jix> and there are so many irregular things in the german language...
16:36:23 <kipple> funny norwegian sentence which, contrary to yours I believe, is used a lot: er det det det er?
16:36:50 <jix> and what does it mean?
16:37:19 <kipple> and the answer could be (if positive): det er det det er.
16:37:31 <CXI> having the same word for that, what and it is awesome :D
16:37:50 <CXI> but I guess what is just the interrogative case version of it
16:37:58 <jix> in german: ist es das was es ist answer: es ist das was es ist
16:38:34 <kipple> well, it can't really be directly translated to what, but it's as close as it gets
16:38:34 <jix> you know inform ?
16:39:12 <jix> the text-adventure language ?
16:39:35 <jix> the documentation for the german lib must be 10 times the size of the english one
16:40:55 <jix> declination(??) of nouns is fun...
16:40:55 <kipple> it could be interesting to make an esolang based on german grammar (like jix's examples)
16:41:03 <pgimeno> in spanish there's a sentence saying: "Cmo cmo como? Como como como"
16:41:18 <malaprop> That's because the English word "variable" in German is "Gebudenkraftworkendomesserschmidt".
16:41:36 <CXI> kraftwork? :o
16:41:37 <jix> malaprop: loool
16:41:51 <jix> variable is.. Variable
16:42:20 <CXI> in CXI german it's 'das variable'
16:42:21 <kipple> pgimeno: what does it mean?
16:42:31 <jix> CXI: Die Variable
16:42:39 <jix> variable is masculine
16:42:41 <CXI> you're thinking of real german :P
16:42:48 <jix> feminine ^^
16:42:53 <CXI> or, as I would put it
16:42:56 <CXI> das real german :P
16:43:02 <jix> das echte deutsch
16:43:06 <pgimeno> kipple: it's like "Why [do you ask that] how do I eat? I eat as I eat" (actually there's one omission that is a little forced; it should start with "Cmo que cmo como?"
16:43:51 <jix> der CXI kann wohl kein wort deutsch
16:43:55 <kipple> jix: shouldn't it be: das echte Deutsch ?
16:44:16 <jix> kipple: capitalization sucks ...
16:44:28 <CXI> jix; mein hund ist kaput
16:44:38 <jix> CXI: your dog is broken ?
16:44:43 <CXI> he certainly is
16:45:03 <CXI> it's funny, I told him I could get him fixed, but he didn't like the idea
16:45:12 <jix> but in german you wouldn't say a dog is kaputt..
16:45:27 <jix> you would say verletzt or krank but not kaputt
16:45:51 <jix> only things can be kaputt.. not animals or humans
16:45:57 <CXI> no, no, I wanted it to literally translate to broken :D
16:46:29 <CXI> that way I could make my awesome "fixed" double-entendre
16:46:31 <jix> there is a german language.. you know applescript ?
16:46:39 <jix> in some time there was a german and french applescript
16:47:16 <kipple> I think there was a time when some thought it a good idea to translate programming languages
16:47:44 <kipple> I seem to remember having seen portugese pascal somewhere
16:47:46 <jix> wenn der wert größer als 4 ist dann beepe == if the value is bigger than 4 then beep == valid apple script
16:48:34 <kipple> hmm. my IRC client doesn't seem to handle german letters...
16:48:46 <jix> maybe it's because i use utf-8
16:48:55 <jix> "how up do high knee" ^^
16:49:48 <jix> how up do high knee == hau ab du heini == go away you idiot... it's just funny if you know english and german
16:50:23 <jix> ok back to decl
17:08:30 <jix> ...ping... anyone here ?
17:19:39 <jix> the decl parser is very difficult to implement
17:25:51 <jix> what os do you (all) use ?
17:28:28 <CXI> windows, but not for any good reason
17:28:46 <CXI> well, mainly because it's what I know, and linux is absolutely horrible to use if you don't know it
17:28:48 <GregorR> Mandr{ake,iva} to be specific.
17:29:03 <kipple> Windows mainly, but I also have a debian box
17:29:08 <CXI> that's not strigma
17:29:14 <CXI> er, stigma
17:29:18 <CXI> it's based on my own experiences
17:30:03 <CXI> I *can* run linux, in fact I've done so on different occasions, but it's a pain because if something goes wrong, fixing it requires knowing exactly the right arcane sequence of commands and config files
17:30:26 <GregorR> Xandros, Mandr{ake,iva}, Ubuntu, even Fedora have robust graphical configuration systems.
17:30:57 <CXI> Mandriva is the worst name ever :P
17:31:06 <CXI> but yeah, I had issues with it too
17:31:08 <GregorR> It's Mandrake + Connectiva
17:31:20 <GregorR> Anyway, I'm not actually here, I'm at work, so *disappears*
17:33:06 <jix> i'm happy with osx.. but sometimes i need windows (for windows only apps (fpga programming.. the linux tools aren't free (the last time i checked))) and my servers are running on debian(and if something goes wrong you have a problem)
17:34:40 <pgimeno> my machine is running debian and if something goes wrong I have a problem
17:35:00 <pgimeno> but then at work I have Windows and if something goes wrong I have a problem
17:35:18 <CXI> my machine's running win2k and if something goes wrong I can probably fix it in ten minutes to an hour depending on what it is
17:35:39 <malaprop> All my machines run Linux and they don't have problems.
17:35:47 <CXI> a linux problem I could probably fix in comparable time provided I had access to the right documentation (ie internet), and it wasn't a really obscure problem that nobody else has ever had
17:36:05 <CXI> unfortunately I seem to attract the latter kind of problem :/
17:36:54 <jix> on windows i can fix problems as fast as an average windows user.. on debian i need 4 times the time a linux guru would need and on osx.. hmm what went wrong.. hmm i got kernel panics with an additional kernel extension so i removed it.. no other big problems
17:37:51 <jix> oh wait.. i wrote a perl script to batch delete files.. but.. executed it in the wrong terminal window.. (root and in the wrong directory)
17:38:40 <pgimeno> in debian most of the things that can go wrong are not the system's fault, but that's how FOSS works
17:38:40 <jix> my /System/ directory was somewhat.. empty but a reinstall system keep user settings did it...
17:40:21 <pgimeno> in some sense you accept the bugs if you go the FOSS way
17:40:52 <pgimeno> (and... well, the mainteinance pain too)
17:42:20 <pgimeno> every coder has his own idea on how things should work, and you have to know sed, perl, awk, makefiles, sh scripts and lots of other things
17:42:29 <jix> with osx i don't want to use plain darwin (because if something goes wrong i have the same situation as with debian) but with osx on top it's a lot easier
18:02:15 <lament> ewww sed, perl, awk, makefiles, sh scripts
18:03:20 <lament> some windows problems can be pretty bad
18:03:50 <lament> it took me like a day to get rid of spyware my friend got
18:04:07 <lament> now what's the last time you had a problem like that on a unix...
18:07:31 <pgimeno> oh hehe, windows is pretty complex when you go deeper than simple user level, especially with everything surrounding IE
18:15:57 <kipple> but you don't need to use IE just because you use windows...
18:21:54 <lament> my friend didn't use IE...
18:22:12 <lament> the spyware affected firefox equally well
18:58:10 <GregorR> No spyware high-horses - GNU/Linux is just as susceptible to spyware as Windows is, so long as they're not in viral form. It's not very virus susceptible but it's still idiot-user susceptible.
19:00:19 <lament> i don't think my friend's an idiot :)
19:00:41 <lament> well... she uses firefox, at least, and doesn't open email from strangers
19:01:28 <lament> man that thing was a mean piece of work
19:01:32 <GregorR> People package spyware in downloaded programs. You run them, you get spyware. There's no reason that that wouldn't work in ANY operating system, the only way to block it would be with the even worse big-brother trusted computing.
19:02:09 * GregorR goes back to his job at Intel, a major supporter of trusted computing :P
19:02:14 <lament> it prevented the antispyware programs from running, it changed all links to security/spyware websites, it somehow modified google search results
19:02:49 <lament> (not in safe mode, thankfully. But still that's rather impressive)
19:03:46 <lament> and all of that in any browser
19:04:13 <kipple> that's actually quite cool (in an evil way)
19:05:00 <kipple> now if only those who create such stuff would use their skills for sensible things instead
19:05:15 <kipple> like esoteric programming languages, for instance... :)
19:06:24 <lament> somebody should write a spyware esolang
19:06:46 <lament> with all your keystrokes as input and random popups as output
19:06:59 <jix> a HQ9+ like thing ^^ STVCK Spy Trojan Virus Crash Keylog
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19:10:03 <jix> moin calamari
19:19:01 <jix> i have about 100 lines of code for decl (without empty lines)
19:23:11 <kipple> 100 lines of decl code, or 100 lines of decl implementation in ruby?
19:30:22 <jix> 100 lines of implementation... it loads all included files and splits the code into the modules
19:50:54 <calamari> latest version of EsoShell is online: http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/EsoShell/ features: command line parsing ('"\), i/o redirection, ctrl-c=break
19:51:13 <calamari> should be pretty good at this point :)
19:55:03 <pgimeno> so, "echo a > b" does no longer print "a > b"? :)
19:55:51 <calamari> maybe you need to reload? could be cached
19:56:34 <calamari> echo a > b produces no output (as expected). cat b gives: a
19:57:39 <pgimeno> do you happen about any way to force mozilla to reload which does not imply clearing the cache?
19:58:31 <calamari> no, sorry.. for testing I had to disable my cache and close/open firefox every time I want to retest
19:59:00 <calamari> you can clear just the cached paged, though.. shouldn't lose much with that
20:02:14 <calamari> oh cool, just realized I restructured my code in such a way that allowing >> is easier to do :)
20:02:39 <pgimeno> I haven't found how to refresh
20:03:37 <jix> >> doesn't work here
20:03:42 <calamari> pgimeno: here is how I had to do it before I disabled my cache: 1) close all browser windows, 2) open fresh browser, clear the cache 3) try the page
20:03:58 <pgimeno> restarting mozilla is a pain for me
20:04:28 <jix> calamari: echo a >> b echo b >> b cat b gives just b
20:04:48 <calamari> jix: that's because I haven't implemented >> yet
20:05:48 <calamari> you should be able to use > and < just fine, though
20:06:28 <calamari> < is harder to test right now.. only pause and cat really use input
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20:34:39 <jix> np: The Flaming Sideburns - Drive On [ Sky Pilots ]
21:08:15 -!- calamari has joined.
21:23:25 <calamari> jix: >> should be implemented now :)
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21:24:44 <fizzie> Hadn't remembered to rejoin here, it seems.
21:26:35 <fizzie> My girlfriend (accidentally, she claims) kicked the reset switch of my router/firewall box, sesefras, at 2005-05-20. Perhaps I should make this automagically connect to freenode too.
21:34:01 <calamari> oops, looks like I had left some debugging statements on.. fixed :)
21:38:23 <GregorR> Is it just me or is meme.b9.com having issues?
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22:05:52 <calamari> primitive bf interpreter on EsoShell (just wanted to get something up!)
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22:13:04 <Keymaker> might be a good time to read the logs..
22:23:51 <pgimeno> I don't think you're able to read them all in a row
22:26:47 <pgimeno> did you install MediaWiki?
22:31:02 <Keymaker> rgh.. way too lazy to read it all.. could someone summary in one word what is going on? :)
22:31:05 <kipple> hi Keymaker. been away?
22:31:21 <wooby> pgimeno: not yet... had some weird problem getting mysql working
22:31:41 <kipple> have you been reading the mailinglist?
22:32:45 <kipple> ok. then you might want to read this: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/misc/elpp.html
22:33:53 <Keymaker> i'm too lazy to read anything :)
22:34:42 <kipple> don't know when you last were here, but in short we're trying to make an alternative to wikipedia, as a place to store info about esolangs
22:36:15 <Keymaker> nice to see well coordinated (?) work :)
22:36:34 <kipple> the consensus seems to be on using mediawiki, but the files section has not been decided yet
22:37:26 <kipple> here's the site: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/
22:39:32 <wooby> kipple: will that be the main site?
22:39:43 <jix> i think it should be possible to attach to every page an spec, an tutorial, many examples.. like Brainfuck Brainfuck:Tutorial Brainfuck:Specs Brainfuck:Examples
22:40:40 <Keymaker> this project seems really good, it think it's good that these language can get archived
22:40:46 <wooby> kipple: if so, i'd be glad to point esolangs.org at it
22:41:07 <kipple> I think that's a good idea.
22:45:49 <pgimeno> I'm taking a rest for today, I've got many things a bit outdated
22:46:22 <pgimeno> (I mean a rest about the wiki etc)
22:46:51 <kipple> rest in peace, pgimeno ;)
22:48:12 <kipple> try writing a Malbolge quine. That should relax you
22:48:52 <Keymaker> i think i'll try some brainfuck
22:48:53 <jix> or write a HQ9++ quine with 2 Q's in the sourcecode
22:49:51 <pgimeno> more seriously, I'd like to write the Malbolge entry in the wiki
22:50:18 <pgimeno> as soon as I'm done with other priorities
22:50:36 <jix> and i'm going to write a decl entry as soon as decl is finished
22:50:50 <jix> my new esolang
22:51:24 <pgimeno> and now /me moves on instead of chit-chatting all the time
22:51:29 <jix> Keymaker: it needs 4 'threads' to AND 2 bits
22:53:15 <jix> they arn't real threads
22:53:42 <Keymaker> i have no idea what that word means
22:54:02 <jix> hm.. it's easier to explain with a working interpreter and some examples
22:54:05 <kipple> Keymaker: btw, I finally have the linux binary version of Kipple up on the web site if your still interested
22:55:28 <Keymaker> i'll switch to linux, i'll be back soon.
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22:59:06 <kipple> that was fast. was that a reboot?
23:00:53 <kipple> glad you liked the new look. just switching from Times to Arial does wonders....
23:01:49 <kipple> since I first applied a style sheet, I couldn't just use the same old blue/purple links.
23:03:17 <Keymaker> rhhhh can't get it working. i wish i could use this better
23:03:35 <Keymaker> "cannot open shared object file.."
23:03:56 <Keymaker> probably i'm missing some stuff
23:04:01 <kipple> what linux are you running?
23:04:26 <kipple> and here I thought it didn't depend on anything :(
23:04:38 <Keymaker> probably i'm just missing some stuff
23:06:09 <kipple> does it say which object file it cannot find?
23:06:50 <Keymaker> btw, what was the compiling line you told me back then?
23:06:55 <kipple> though I thought it wouldn't depend on that
23:06:58 <Keymaker> i'll try to compile the source
23:07:11 <Keymaker> (probably can't get that working either ;))
23:07:15 <kipple> if you don't have libgcj I don't think you'll have much luck
23:08:04 <kipple> gcj --main=Kipple Kipple.jar -o kipple
23:09:25 <Keymaker> for now on i will just program brainfuck on paper
23:10:52 <fizzie> kipple; you could try compiling a binary with "-static" perhaps.
23:11:07 <kipple> is that the option I'm looking for?
23:11:38 <fizzie> I'm not sure what option you are looking for, but it should link it statically and thusly include the necessary libraries in the executable.
23:11:57 <kipple> that's exactly what I was browsing the docs for...
23:12:12 <jix> i'm trying to calculate prime numbers using kipple..
23:12:55 <kipple> I got a lot of warnings, and a 4 megabyte executable, but it seems to work
23:14:08 <kipple> same place, same file (just much bigger)
23:14:32 <fizzie> "Now with even more fun."
23:14:34 <kipple> jix: great! always nice to hear people using it :D
23:15:43 <kipple> warning: Using '<function>' in statically linked applications requires at runtime
23:15:43 <kipple> the shared libraries from the glibc version used for linking
23:16:47 <kipple> replace <function> with dlopen, getpwuid_r, gethostbyaddr_r and gethostbyname_r
23:17:38 <kipple> anyway, it looks like it will still require glibc. But thats much better than requiring libgcj!
23:17:45 <fizzie> Heh. Well, with any luck your glibc versions do match.
23:18:24 <jix> arg..?? dividing 2 numbers using kipple
23:18:41 <kipple> hehe. the joys of esoteric progamming :)
23:19:06 <fizzie> sed is almost like an esoteric language, too.
23:19:34 <Keymaker> w00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000t
23:19:49 <kipple> what gcc version do you have?
23:21:13 <kipple> though the compiled version ran twice as slow as the regular on my computer
23:21:17 <fizzie> G'night, people. (0122am localtime.)
23:22:55 <Keymaker> btw; that your bfpretty.b is neat, kipple
23:23:16 <Keymaker> i've planned a bit similar idea, that i will do sometime
23:23:41 <Keymaker> but it will make code like ,[-[-[++++]]] look like
23:23:58 <Keymaker> (hopefully there is two spaces)
23:24:06 <kipple> ah, the opposite of bfpretty?
23:24:25 <kipple> you could call it bfugly then :D :D
23:24:43 <kipple> actually, that would be REALLY nice
23:25:30 <kipple> maybe even the mandelbrot program will be understandable then...
23:26:19 <kipple> nah, you're probably right
23:26:28 <Keymaker> naturally the program won't be able to do anything intelligent like keep [>+<-] on one line or so
23:26:38 <Keymaker> it would, too bad, break that on several lines
23:27:07 <kipple> I take you are writing it in BF then?
23:27:22 <Keymaker> i thought i said that somewhere
23:27:52 <Keymaker> well, i forgot to say that i'm writing it in bf
23:28:33 <kipple> btw, could you run ls -l /lib/libc.so.* on your linux box, and see which libc-version you get?
23:28:36 <jix> kipple: your language is insane
23:28:54 <jix> programming language
23:29:01 <kipple> yeah, I understood that
23:29:17 <Keymaker> i don't know what to read there
23:29:21 <jix> i JUST want to divide 2 numbers.. it's 10x as hard as with bf
23:30:11 <Keymaker> i read it 'divide number with two'
23:31:24 <kipple> well, the next version of Kipple will allow code modules, so then you can write a division stack once, and then reuse it...
23:31:27 <jix> ok until a is 0 i subtract 1 from a and b
23:32:06 <jix> i don't have to divide just check if 2 values are dividable.. (modulo)
00:14:04 <jix> kipple: i'm done!
00:15:24 <jix> http://rafb.net/paste/results/DQn85Z68.html
00:17:11 <jix> it needs 4secs on my 1ghz ppc machine.. ^^
00:19:06 <jix> quite fast?
00:21:19 <kipple> 10 secs on my 187MHz machine :)
00:22:07 <jix> why does xchat-aqua need 50% cpu ?
00:23:01 <jix> ok now write a kipple compiler
00:23:27 <kipple> that would be great :)
00:23:44 <jix> kipple2c in kipple ?
00:23:56 <kipple> can I put prime.k on the Kipple homepage?
00:24:09 <jix> kipple: yes
00:24:33 <jix> Jannis Harder
00:27:45 <kipple> wow, the Kipple home page gets updated more and more frequently....
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00:37:50 <jix> kipple: an updated version: http://rafb.net/paste/results/by15VL64.html
00:38:30 <jix> the \n are at the right position
00:38:44 <jix> i'm not using the input stack as a temp stack
00:41:39 <kipple> it is currently the second largest kipple program in existence (that I know about)
00:58:18 <kipple> btw, there is NOTHING wrong with using the input stack as a temp stack!
01:00:02 <kipple> just be aware that it may contain data you have not put there..
01:05:26 <jix> good night
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01:51:06 <calamari> think I need directories, or will one be enough?
01:54:11 <kipple> that will quickly become crowded I think
01:57:43 <calamari> kipple: possibly, although there are only programs that the user creates
01:58:20 <calamari> I'll be getting rid of a few of those (who needs touch?) :)
02:00:23 <calamari> how about multiple processes.. needed?
02:03:31 <kipple> one editor and one command line would be nice, of course
02:05:45 <calamari> I haven't really considered having multiple windows.. interesting
02:06:37 <kipple> doesn't have to be windows. just two textareas you can switch between
02:06:43 <calamari> Maybe a row of 4 buttons could represent a taskbar of sorts :)
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02:57:01 -!- graue has set topic: Another brainfuck site (http://www.bf-hacks.org/) is open! ~ http://chriscoyne.com/cfdg/ ~ Esolang Preservation project info: http://tinyurl.com/d3fk5 ~ Esolang wiki: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page.
02:57:40 <graue> i am inventing a weird language
02:58:15 <kipple> I've been thinking about the file storage issue, and have come to the conclusion that we should use both methods.
02:59:39 <graue> it's slightly Icon-inspired, and slightly AMD64 assembly-inspired, and then just weird in addition to that
02:59:57 <kipple> I agree that a file hierarchy is best for preservation of multiple files. but we should also have images and maybe some other files in the wiki
03:00:19 <graue> hmm, images of what? Piet programs? Whitespace with syntax highlighting?
03:00:24 <kipple> is 64 bit assembly notably different from regular?
03:00:33 <graue> it has a bunch of crazy 64- and 128-bit registers
03:00:58 <kipple> we should be open to languages that are not text based
03:02:10 <kipple> not too many of them currently, but they might come
03:02:56 <kipple> do you have a code example, btw?
03:05:13 <graue> check the wikipedia article for Whitespace
03:05:23 <graue> it has a syntax highlighting graphic that's marked as being public domain, so we can rip it off
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05:00:53 <GregorR-L> I made a SourceForge plugin for Giki :)
05:13:06 <graue> sourceforge has plugins?
05:14:08 <GregorR> It's better shown than exlained: http://giki.sourceforge.net/?title=Downloads
05:15:07 <GregorR> I could better word that like so: I made a GikiPlugin to render SourceForge content.
05:17:15 <graue> can you make it work with gforge and savane?
05:17:30 <GregorR> It could probably be slightly modified to work with any *forge.'
05:17:50 <graue> savane is also a sourceforge fork, you know
05:18:18 <GregorR> We're thinking different softwares X-D
05:18:36 <GregorR> I don't know what I was thinking, actually :P
05:18:42 <GregorR> Anyway, it could be modified to use them, sure.
05:20:37 <GregorR> The Savane page says SourceForge went proprietary ...
05:22:43 * GregorR downloads the SF software ...
05:22:51 * GregorR sees "GNU General Public License"
05:26:12 <graue> you didn't know SourceForge went proprietary?
05:26:22 <graue> only an old version is available under the GPL
05:27:51 * GregorR considers switching his projects to Gna.
05:31:36 <graue> they don't provide PHP, it seems
05:38:06 <GregorR-L> I suppose some of the code (contributed bits) must still be GPL, but since it's a web site and the GPL has no provisions for web-provided content, it's irrelevent.
05:40:36 <graue> sourceforge was developed by a company, they own it, and they are now trying to sell the "enterprise edition" of it to other companies for obscene amounts of money
05:40:57 <graue> sourceforge.net is an ad for their software
05:42:57 <graue> no company is going to buy sourceforge enterprise edition because of your site, so don't worry about it
05:45:16 <GregorR-L> Just released Giki 1.2, which most importantly has a separate download with a bunch of plugins :)
05:46:35 <graue> do you lock the flat files so two edits at the same time won't clobber a page?
05:46:53 <GregorR-L> No, but that could be implemented by a plugin :)
05:48:07 <graue> MediaWiki has an <input type="hidden" value="hash or something" /> in the edit form, and when you post, it checks that against the hash of the latest revision
05:48:11 <graue> if they don't match, it doesn't post it
05:48:16 <graue> you should do something like that
05:49:44 <GregorR-L> However, it does have a full history, so even if you do lose something, you don't lose anything *shrugs*
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10:27:38 <lament> actually it's really late night.
10:28:05 <pgimeno> who was that who invented time zones?
10:34:52 <pgimeno> I think that use of WikiMedia is already stablished, only doubt is about the files section
10:35:20 * GregorR-L whispers Giiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiikiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
10:37:09 <GregorR-L> Giki got a positive review at some random guy's blog :)
10:37:32 <pgimeno> cool, you're becoming famous :)
10:38:13 <GregorR-L> Anyway, now I'm going to go be week and sleep.
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14:41:26 <kipple> graue: is svn operational in he files archive now? can I test it?
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18:18:55 <kipple> (my, what an interesting conversation here today ;)
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18:24:43 <pgimeno> graue: I'd like to see a final decision about files today
18:24:43 <pgimeno> svn is ok to me, the only point being that people have to email the files to upload to an editor
18:24:43 <kipple> I think we should go with both. i.e. that some files should be allowed in the wiki
18:24:58 <pgimeno> one thing after the other :)
18:25:14 <kipple> maybe we could write a nice web-interface that allows people to submit a file to an editor
18:26:36 <kipple> should that be in the wiki, or on a separate page?
18:26:57 <kipple> hmm. I guess we should avoid modifications to the wiki software
18:27:17 <pgimeno> I don't mind, but probably the wiki will not be able to cope with that by default, and yes, we should avoid modifications
18:27:45 <pgimeno> note that it's not important if that page is not preserved
18:28:13 <pgimeno> the page with the upload interface, I mean
18:28:27 <pgimeno> when (if) the site moves to a mirror, the setup will probably change
18:29:58 <pgimeno> so, the files section is good for keeping language distributions etc.
18:31:17 <pgimeno> the wiki images section would have a different purpose
18:31:40 <kipple> in mediawiki images and other files are treated as the same
18:32:13 <pgimeno> I know, but uploading e.g. zipped files to the wiki is not a good idea
18:32:32 <kipple> well, not if we have a separate archive
18:32:42 <kipple> then they should go there
18:34:25 <pgimeno> the question is: given the additional nuisance of backing up a separate directory just for images, does it pay off?
18:34:49 <kipple> well, I think we should have images in the Wiki!
18:35:17 <kipple> it could be zipped together with the db-dump
18:35:30 <kipple> or even better: located in the files archive
18:35:59 <pgimeno> I don't think that's possible
18:36:54 <pgimeno> and because it would be a pain to reconstruct
18:37:11 <kipple> well, the cronjob that does the database dump could simply include the images in the zip/tar
18:37:50 <kipple> since we will have most files in the svn it will probably not be very large
18:38:24 <pgimeno> there's a possibility to keep them in the svn archive, depending on how WikiMedia deals with images; if it can link the image to an URL which is external to the wiki, it could work
18:40:23 <pgimeno> this setup seems not so simple as it looked at first sight huh?
18:40:40 <kipple> huh? what's the problem?
18:41:16 <pgimeno> I mean the MediaWiki + svn etc.
18:42:02 <kipple> It's just two different things to backup. I don't see the problem.
18:42:30 <pgimeno> svn up + db backup + wiki images
18:42:39 <kipple> as I said: just include the images in the db backup
18:42:57 <kipple> anyway, one more zip to download is not a problem either IMHO
18:44:15 <kipple> actually you CAN use external images in the wiki.
18:44:36 <kipple> but I think it's not a good idead
18:45:27 <kipple> because then people will probably use images on OTHER servers, rather than bothering with contacting an editor
18:47:16 <pgimeno> I'm worried about having many potential causes of failure
18:47:43 <kipple> well, this is used in the wikipedia, and it seems to work fine
18:48:08 <kipple> images linked from everywhere is REALLY a pain to back up
18:48:58 <CXI> external images would be nasty
18:49:24 <pgimeno> I actually wanted them to only point to the files section with no other possibility
18:49:48 <pgimeno> maybe replacing the images directory of the wiki with a link to the files working dir could work
18:49:56 <pgimeno> (provided there's nothing else in there)
18:50:41 <kipple> but the images doesn't really belong together with the other files. They should be tied to articles
18:51:05 <pgimeno> I mean something like: files/wiki_images/*
18:51:32 <pgimeno> that's just the placeholder
18:51:36 <pgimeno> it's already separate anyway
18:52:03 <kipple> well, if svn doesn't have a problem with the wiki writing into the file tree, then that would work
18:52:37 <kipple> but you said earlier that that wouldn't work (or did I misunderstand?)
18:52:45 <pgimeno> hm, you haven't worked much with svn, right?
18:53:35 <pgimeno> I didn't think of the possibility of linking the images/ dir of the wiki previously
18:54:03 <pgimeno> but if that can work then I think it's the best solution
18:54:15 <kipple> well, AFAIK the images dir can be anywhere on the filesystem as far as the Wiki is concerned, so you don't even need to link
18:54:54 <pgimeno> but the upload can't be through the wiki interface
18:55:09 <kipple> then what's the point?
18:55:40 <pgimeno> the point is to handle all downloads uniformly (and all uploads too)
18:56:05 <kipple> well, I still don't see why it is a problem backing up the image dir
18:56:44 <kipple> anyway, if you don't upload the images through the wiki, then you would be back to external links
18:57:05 <kipple> unless you write a hack to modify the db when you add images....
18:57:30 <pgimeno> oh, do they need to be uploaded through the interface in order to be available?
18:57:57 <pgimeno> seems that I was thinking in a too HTMLish way
18:58:49 <kipple> and when you upload them through the wiki the gets put in a human-unfriendly hierarchy
18:59:38 <pgimeno> in that case it won't work anyway <sigh>
19:00:19 <kipple> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_file_usage#Uploaded_media_files
19:00:25 <pgimeno> I don't say it's a problem to back up yet another dir by itself, just that it's another possible point of failure and I don't like that
19:01:21 <pgimeno> hum, and how's the upload dir related to the images dir?
19:03:25 <kipple> is it because of svn you can't have uploads thorugh the wiki into the files archive?
19:03:59 <pgimeno> the svn filesystem is opaque
19:04:17 <kipple> can't you make it ignore one of the sub dirs?
19:04:28 <kipple> i.e. where the wiki files go
19:04:36 <pgimeno> it's working copies (wc's) the ones which contain the original files
19:05:24 <pgimeno> there's one possibility, namely manually commit the files into the archive, but that requires graue keeping the repository up-to-date wrt the wiki
19:06:02 <pgimeno> I already thought it was a bad idea :)
19:07:40 <pgimeno> it will ignore any subdirs in either the opaque repository or the working copy which is exposed for download, that's not a problem
19:08:17 <pgimeno> but I don't think that helps anyway
19:43:38 <jix> i'm writing a c kipple interpreter
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20:33:25 <pgimeno> better don't paste the song lyrics :)
20:34:27 <pgimeno> actually I don't know the music
20:34:45 <pgimeno> will it be in midi form somewhere?
20:35:08 <Keymaker> i have just some strange idea of melody and picture of pirates singing it..
20:36:10 <puzzlet> maybe someone has to compose it for the first time
20:39:11 <pgimeno> I'm now trying to decode the music from the Cakewalk version (I don't have Cakewalk but the note codes are there)
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21:20:10 <pgimeno> okay, got the speccy version ready
21:22:09 <pgimeno> if you have a Speccy emulator you can hear it :)
21:23:33 * pgimeno ponders on writing it to WAV
21:23:45 * pgimeno ponders on singing it to a WAV
21:24:14 <pgimeno> let's better let the speccy put the music... and nothing more
21:54:52 <pgimeno> it apparently has a bug but I've worked around it... http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/99bottles.ogg
21:55:28 <Keymaker> i don't think i have any ogg player
21:57:52 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/99bottles.mp3
21:58:18 <pgimeno> many players support ogg anyway
21:58:30 <pgimeno> but using lame is illegal, you know :P
21:59:42 <pgimeno> I'm just in doubt for the last part
22:00:16 <pgimeno> but it's almost impossible to describe on IRC
22:00:30 <Keymaker> good.. i don't understand music :p
22:01:15 <pgimeno> just because I don't see how syllabs(sp?) and song notes match
22:02:32 <Keymaker> but to entirely different thing: quick, go to vote ORK in 99bob page
22:02:36 <pgimeno> "98 bottles" has 4-5 syllabes
22:03:13 * GregorR tries to decide how 98 could be 4 syllables ...
22:03:25 <GregorR> nine-ty-eight = 3 syllables
22:04:11 <GregorR> Whoops, I meant "GregorR tries to decide how 98 could be 2 syllables ..."
22:04:30 <pgimeno> you may force nine-tyeight if sung, probably
22:04:31 <GregorR> Also, I meant "No, then it's 5"
22:04:44 <Keymaker> anyways, i can NOT understand why on earth somebody has voted that rexx language
22:05:03 <pgimeno> rexx is that amiga thing? there are many amiga fans
22:06:07 <pgimeno> the rexx version is trivial
22:07:38 <pgimeno> doh, the threaded C version sux
22:07:48 <pgimeno> why creating just 10 threads if you can create 99?
22:10:09 <GregorR> int main() { for (i = 0; ; i++) printf("%d bottles of beer in me, %d bottles of beer, I take one down and drink it all down, %d bottles of beer in me!\n", i, i, i+1); }
22:10:42 <GregorR> int main() { int i; for (i = 0; ; i++) printf("%d bottles of beer in me, %d bottles of beer, I take one down and drink it all down, %d bottles of beer in me!\n", i, i, i+1); }
22:11:04 * pgimeno notes the absence of a stop condition
22:11:26 <GregorR> This poor program is what we call an alcoholic.
22:13:18 <pgimeno> ow! Rexx has 3 votes and ork has 4 votes, both at 5.00
22:13:37 <GregorR> Then why is Rexx rated above ORK?
22:13:54 <jix> because it's an esovoting system
22:14:04 <pgimeno> I think I'm going to lower the Rexx version...
22:15:10 <pgimeno> after all it's nothing new in my opinion
22:15:30 <jix> ok i'm continue to write cipple the c kipple interpreter
22:16:27 <Keymaker> world needs more kipple interpreters
22:17:09 <jix> and it's going to be pretty fast (i hope so)
22:18:53 <jix> i'm going to parse the code into a struct-structure and than execute it.. the stack functions/structures are done..
22:48:02 <kipple> hey, what do I see! more interpreters are always welcome!
22:48:14 <kipple> and Keymaker: I totally agree :D
22:48:40 <jix> http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/kipple/
22:49:10 * kipple is reading up on the log
22:49:18 <jix> but i'm going to add a special feature: live i/o
22:49:45 <jix> using the stack _ poping it is reading a char and pushing it is writing a char
22:50:25 <Keymaker> not sure is that good idea, since it isn't part of the language
22:50:31 <Keymaker> i think you should leave that out
22:50:40 <jix> but without it i can't write the number guessing game
22:51:04 <Keymaker> since only way to do that in kipple is pseudo-random
22:51:08 <kipple> the next version of the language has the ability to load customized stacks, so then you could do that
22:51:23 <Keymaker> you can as well hit random keys to input and start the program :)
22:52:37 <lament> hm, kipple is not too bad
22:53:26 * kipple just noticed ORK ruling the 99 bottles of beer list :)
22:53:46 <Keymaker> lament: the one that just said something about ork :)
22:54:14 <kipple> hehe. maybe I should change my nick to avoid more confusion
22:54:53 <lament> kipple: i really like the shortcuts
22:55:02 <lament> evil and functional :)
22:55:40 <jix> 0>a? << very useful
22:56:04 <jix> nooo a-0 ;)
22:56:17 <kipple> never underestimate the power of adding zero :)
22:56:24 <Keymaker> :) this far the only language that takes advantage of those :)
22:56:51 <kipple> in retrospect, though, I regret including the - operator
22:58:05 <lament> not having io during execution is ugly
22:58:27 <lament> even lazy k manages to have it
22:58:43 <lament> despite it being completely impossible and inappropriate
22:58:54 <Keymaker> i like it, only bad thing is that you can't make program that prints out infinite sequence
22:59:17 <lament> hm, can you do that in lazy k?
22:59:21 <kipple> ah, because of stack limitations?
22:59:34 <Keymaker> i meant that if i make a program
22:59:43 <lament> yeah, lazy k can print out infinite sequences
23:00:14 <kipple> if you wanna do that you have to wait for Kipple 05
23:00:27 <graue> will it be an ISO standard?
23:00:39 <jix> we need ESO standards !
23:00:40 <kipple> haha. no. maybe ESO... ;)
23:01:26 <lament> so is it usable? should i put stuff on there?
23:01:39 <lament> will it die within days?
23:02:00 <graue> not unless you consider 10,000+ days days, then it is possible
23:02:08 <lament> does anyone know of its existance?
23:02:25 <jix> a language with a prime generating example will never die!
23:03:26 <graue> i linked to it from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language, so everyone will soon know of its existence
23:03:42 <kipple> as for the ESO standard: http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/programs/esoapi/esoapi.html
23:04:54 <pgimeno> graue: about the files, are you going to enable MediaWiki uploads? (they need to be backed up too)
23:05:15 <kipple> I suggest zipping them together with the db-dump
23:05:35 <kipple> and only allow certain file types (images and perhaps some others)
23:10:28 <graue> i didn't know they weren't enabled, i'll see
23:10:29 <GregorR> That was a mean thing to do to Rexx :P
23:10:55 <lament> i think i agree with cpressey
23:10:57 <pgimeno> I don't know whether they are, I'm just asking if it's in your plans
23:11:00 <lament> file repository is more important than wiki
23:11:12 <lament> and ftp is probably the best solution
23:11:35 <GregorR> Err, not write-only, but no-overwrite
23:11:47 <kipple> anonymous write is not a good idea
23:12:03 <lament> ideally, with a maintainer
23:12:27 <kipple> I had one once, and it was quickly hijacked by software pirates
23:12:38 <lament> less ideally, a bunch of admins who can give out logins in this channel for example
23:12:55 <GregorR> I just think the more humans involved in giving access, the worse.
23:12:58 <jix> limit upload to 2mb/day/ip for anonymous
23:13:17 <lament> upload limit ought to work, i think.
23:13:30 <lament> i'm thinking of the Doom levels database
23:13:50 <lament> but that requires a very dedicated maintainer
23:14:09 <GregorR> Maybe a file-size limit rather than a bandwidth limit?
23:14:19 <graue> can you provide an anonymous FTP with those specifications, that will be easy to back up, and possible to access over HTTP?
23:14:20 <GregorR> With a 100k file size limit, it's worthless for pirates, but useful for esolangs.
23:14:29 <lament> no anonymous upload, except into /incoming
23:14:39 <lament> no downloading from /incoming
23:14:48 <lament> maintainer moves stuff from /incoming by hand
23:15:01 <lament> (once weekly or something)
23:15:03 <jix> my idea: a registered user has it's own directory for managing his files... and everyone can generate symlinks for categories etc.. example: kipple has his java interpreter in /users/kipple symlink to /langs/kipple/interpreters i have my c in /users/jix symlink to /langs/kipple/interpreters
23:15:05 <kipple> could work. don't think it will be that much traffic
23:15:07 <GregorR> Sorting misc. stuff is hard - what's wrong with uploads anywhere, but no overwrites?
23:15:27 <lament> there could still be vandalism
23:15:42 <jix> filesize is a bad idea imho
23:15:44 <lament> people would store their porn jpg collections, etc
23:15:47 <GregorR> Hmm, I guess if somebody wrote "kipple-1.1.zip" into the kipple dir, bad :P
23:15:54 <lament> also some esoteric things do have more than 100k files
23:16:05 <GregorR> (That is, if it was not kipple-1.1.zip)
23:16:59 <lament> the doom community has been fortunate enough to have the same person in charge of the archive for 10 years
23:17:05 <jix> the interpreter is done.. it's time for the parser
23:18:37 <kipple> I think ftp is a nice solution, as long as there is anonymous read acces over HTTP as well. svn might be a bit overkill for this
23:18:47 <lament> (btw why ftp rather than subversion? Because we don't need a version control system, just a repository)
23:19:37 * GregorR slips into his brand new, hypoallergenic shoes and struts away.
23:19:38 <lament> also as i understand it would be for complete (more or less) projects
23:19:45 <jix> i like the idea that every user has it's own directory and symlinking into the global repo
23:19:50 <lament> not projects in development that need a version control system
23:19:56 <pgimeno> yeah, svn was suggested because graue couldn't provide anonymous ftp IIRC
23:20:36 <pgimeno> it was something like "not optimal but works"
23:21:17 <lament> gopher would be even better than ftp :))))))
23:21:23 <graue> i think you guys are making the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_solution_fallacy with all these great ideas that would have problems of their own, and will not be implemented
23:21:39 <graue> anyway, anyone who wants a svn account, insecurely send me a private message with the username and password you want
23:22:08 <lament> graue: but ftp is pretty much the simplest solution
23:22:25 <graue> lament: but i can't offer it, so it isn't
23:22:31 <jix> but mac os x is still not able to write to ftp using the finder
23:22:35 <graue> svn is the simplest solution, actually, because it's already set up
23:22:52 <jix> i'm able to setup everything i want
23:23:08 <pgimeno> graue: what about that propchange error? was that because of a wrong hook script or something?
23:23:11 <jix> but my server is slow, has a bandwidth limit, and is slow, and has only a 4gb harddisk
23:23:31 <lament> 4gb ought to be enough for all esoteric languages ever created in the galaxy :)
23:23:40 <jix> yes but 3gb are in use
23:24:21 <lament> wouldn't it be nice for something like ibiblio to give us space
23:25:37 <graue> what propchange error?
23:25:43 <lament> esoteric.google.com :)
23:26:38 <pgimeno> graue: iirc you had some issue with aura and subversion
23:26:59 <graue> no, that was my web browser
23:27:16 <graue> it has a bug involving downloading of files in a gzip-compressed way
23:28:41 <lament> do i need a svn client to upload to svn? To download from svn?
23:29:17 <graue> lament: yes to both, but you can also download files from HTTP
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23:38:03 <pgimeno> graue: so about the backups, what is needed is a database dump and the wiki uploads dir; can you set up those?
23:38:48 <graue> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Whitespace
23:39:00 <pgimeno> then I think it's all ready to get rolling
23:39:50 <kipple> I like your image policy :)
23:40:15 <lament> is there a kipple to brainfuck compiler yet?
23:40:40 <pgimeno> graue: who can upload images?
23:40:42 <kipple> I should like to see that
23:41:16 <lament> i guess i'll write one
23:41:26 <kipple> handling the 26 different stacks in BF would be a nightmare IMHO, but good luck!
23:41:56 <kipple> (but then I'm not much of a brainfucker)
23:42:00 <lament> parsing kipple would be the hardest part
23:44:36 <graue> pgimeno, anyone with an account i think
23:46:06 <Keymaker> harder than the stacks would be the big numbers, i guess
23:46:24 <Keymaker> in case you'll do the work on 8-bit implementation
23:46:44 <lament> hm, i don't want to do that :)
00:12:27 <jix> kipple: there is a bug in the java interpreter
00:12:39 <jix> it hangs if i put a string into a comment
00:13:25 <jix> it seems to dislike comments at all
00:13:56 <jix> but if i don't put a string into a comment it stops hanging if i run another program
00:13:56 <kipple> hmm. I have used plenty of comments without problems. I can understand it could be a problem with strings though
00:14:35 <kipple> your talking about the applet?
00:15:06 <jix> ah a empty program just a comment.. that is a problem for the applet
00:15:55 <jix> hmm maybe it's a bug of my java vm
00:16:02 <kipple> though there seem to be an issue with the mouse cursor with empty programs
00:16:42 <jix> not only with empty programs but with all programms that ends with an unterminated comment (# but no \n)
00:17:17 <kipple> but does it really hang, or is it only the cursor that doesn't change back from hourglass?
00:17:45 <jix> i think it's the cursor because it turns back to normal if i run another program
00:18:04 <kipple> if you can run another program at all, it isn't hung
00:18:22 <jix> i first thought i can't run another programm
00:18:39 <kipple> a minor bug then, but thanks for letting me know!
00:18:47 <jix> but it was because x-chat was in front when i clicked and the first click just activated safari
00:19:36 <jix> maybe i find some more bugs by trying to copy the java interpreter's behavior
00:20:02 <kipple> it crashes on infinite loops...
00:20:36 <kipple> with the command line version you can just ctrl-c, but in the applet you loose whatever code you've written....
00:20:57 <jix> kipple: i can still copy the code even if the program is in an infinity loop
00:21:29 <jix> i'm sure i've done that yesterday
00:21:59 <jix> 1>a (a 1>a)
00:22:23 <jix> i LOVE mac os x ;)
00:22:28 <kipple> can you switch between code, input and output as well
00:23:10 <kipple> ok. probably just a minor difference in java runtime then (the textarea is not locked in yours)
00:23:47 <kipple> bah. now Opera crashed as well >:(
00:24:03 <jix> i think it's because on mac os x the UI refreshes/actions aren't all handled by the program
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00:28:24 <jix> ok comments are implemented
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00:39:50 <jix> i hate string parsing in c
00:40:17 <jix> it is hard but it isn't fun like with an esolang
01:16:56 <jix> the parser knows + and -
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02:12:37 <kipple> OMG! this is the best star wars movie in ages: http://www.storewars.org/flash/index.html :D :D
02:36:56 <lament> i have decided against a kipple->brainfuck compiler!
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02:50:29 <graue> what if you write the compiler in C, as opposed to brainfuck?
02:52:56 <graue> no, i mean use C to write the kipple->brainfuck compiler
02:53:02 <graue> you were writing it in brainfuck before, yes?
02:53:40 <lament> i just realized i don't like brainfuck :(
02:55:27 <lament> has anyone worked with choon?
02:55:48 <graue> anyone who has, should add information on it to the wiki
02:56:10 <lament> it seems like a cool language
02:56:37 <graue> i have read about it, but not used it
02:56:38 <lament> at the same time, it seems whoever wrote it wasn't in the esoteric community
02:59:44 <lament> i just like the idea of a music language
04:06:03 <graue> we should spend more time writing programs in existing languages
04:06:34 <graue> iag, for instance, is almost totally unexplored
04:10:05 <lament> there's hundreds of unexplored languages out there
04:10:24 <graue> no, there probably are hundreds
04:10:35 <graue> maybe tens that are actually notable
04:10:48 <graue> (Ook! and COW don't need serious exploration)
04:20:07 <graue> maybe if COW stood for Copy-On-Write it would be an interesting language
04:20:15 <graue> i mean, if it somehow applied that principle in esoteric excess
04:23:51 <graue> the file extension .i seems to be used for both INTERCAL and iag
07:30:07 <graue> who runs the channel logging bot?
07:41:39 <graue> i was going to download all the esologs to back them up, but the robots.txt is stopping me
07:42:04 <CXI> no it isn't :P
07:42:18 <graue> i'm potentially being an asshole, and have set wget to ignore that
07:42:24 <CXI> there we go :D
07:42:53 <graue> i figure whoever runs the site realizes the alternative would be for me to manually download every file, which doesn't save him any bandwidth
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09:04:21 <CXI> oh, man :(
09:04:41 <CXI> there's a gzip quine out there somewhere
09:04:43 <CXI> but I can't find it
09:05:48 <CXI> oh, wait, web archive and some ingenuity might save the day :D
09:18:53 <CXI> haha, that's so awesome
09:21:58 <CXI> http://members.dodo.com.au/~sgentle/selfgz.gz
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10:15:12 <lament> that might or might not be really cool
10:15:21 <lament> depending on the specifics of gz which i have no clue about
10:29:48 <pgimeno> I do and I'm utterly impressed
10:32:58 <pgimeno> compressed uncompressed ratio uncompressed_name
10:34:35 <pgimeno> the 8.6% looks a bit arbitrary :P
10:34:57 <pgimeno> with the given data, that is
10:35:36 <CXI> http://web.archive.org/web/20040808020638/http://caspian.arts-centre.net/
10:35:39 <CXI> ripped it from there
10:37:34 <kipple> Choon is also interesting
10:37:37 <pgimeno> next challenge is to dig into gzip's internals and write a gzip quine (as opposed to this one which is gunzip) ;)
10:37:37 <kipple> now who's gonna write 99 bottles in Choon?
10:37:57 <pgimeno> I want to write 99 bottles in Dis
10:38:06 <CXI> gzip quine would be... strange
10:38:28 <CXI> it'd be implementation-specific, too :/
10:38:32 <pgimeno> it surely would need a specific -1..-9 setting
10:38:55 <pgimeno> well, zlib is a good reference point
10:39:12 <pgimeno> but yes, it may be zlib-version-specific
10:39:31 <kipple> http://www.stephensykes.com/choon/choon.html
10:39:45 <kipple> found it in the log for last night
10:39:47 <CXI> The John Cage instruction ('%') causes a one note silence in the output stream.
10:41:25 <CXI> he made a song called 4'33", which is four minutes and 33 seconds of silence
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11:33:03 <kipple> how's the interpreter going?
11:33:24 <jix> the parser scanns for + and - commands and the executing part is done
11:37:00 <pgimeno> if a program that plays the 99bob song in choon is a 99bob program, then I've got one :)
11:37:57 <kipple> what do you mean? is there a melody for the song?
11:38:40 <pgimeno> I still need to make it loop 99 times but I think the output will be huge in that case
11:39:05 <kipple> You should submit it to the 99 bottles page.
11:39:22 <kipple> but, of course, it should loop 99 times :)
11:41:28 <jix> now i have to implement > and < ...
11:43:55 <pgimeno> for those interested the current WIP is here: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/99bob.choon
11:45:04 <pgimeno> that loops just twice and plays an spurious note at the beginning which I plan to eliminate
11:59:36 <pgimeno> hm, I can't eliminate it at all
12:17:08 <jix> < is 20% done
12:21:31 <CXI> wish I was writing an esolang instead of doing my assignment
12:21:36 <pgimeno> know that murphy's law which says: "The first 90% of the work will take 10% of the time. The other 10% will take the remaining 90%"
12:22:12 <CXI> that's not murphy... I can't remember whose that is, actually
12:22:34 <pgimeno> oh sorry, it was in a book entitled "murphy's law"
12:22:53 <kipple> Murphy's law is probably one of the most misquoted laws there is...
12:24:39 <CXI> the name ah
12:24:44 <CXI> s/the name //
12:24:54 <CXI> it's called pareto's principle - the 80/20 rule
12:30:08 <kipple> jix: in case you're interested, here is an early version of the Kipple 05 spec: http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/kipple/kipple05.html
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12:35:33 <jix> no.. 24h disconnect
12:36:47 <jix> in germany t-online disconnect's dsl users every 24h..
12:37:26 <kipple> did you get my link before you disconnected?
12:37:41 <jix> 13:25:46<CXI>s/the name //
12:38:04 <kipple> early version of the Kipple 05 spec: http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/kipple/kipple05.html
12:38:17 <jix> Escape characters are currently not supported.++
12:38:47 <kipple> was ther a problem with my message?
12:39:02 <jix> i think it's good that the string preprocessor does not support escape characters
12:39:05 <kipple> or are you talking about something else
12:39:29 <kipple> anyway, the string preprocessor is optional
12:40:35 <jix> but i want to implement it
12:40:48 <kipple> sure. It's nice to have
12:41:47 <jix> hmm.. is it possible to implement the @ stack in kipple
12:42:14 <jix> just because.. it would be like interactive IO
12:42:31 <jix> i push a number, read from the stack, push a number, read from the stack
12:44:28 <jix> ok another example: a<1 (top of a is now 2).. how to implement that in kipple ?
12:45:00 <kipple> I don't understand what you mean
12:45:26 <kipple> a stack that adds 1 to all pushed values?
12:45:50 <kipple> well it can't be named a (a-z are reserved for normal stacks)
12:46:44 <jix> oh.. yes... %<"a" %>o outputs "b"
12:47:35 <jix> the code gets executed with every push ?
12:48:10 <kipple> that's where I'm not decided yet
12:48:17 <jix> or with every pop
12:48:52 <jix> hmm.. for the @ stack every push would be optimal.. but if one would like to have the opposite of @ every pop would be better
12:49:25 <kipple> currently a push sets the "evaluate" flag. On a pop the code is executed if the flag is set. then the topmost value of the custom stack's o is popped
13:03:36 <jix> > is done 30%
13:04:12 <jix> i'm at 360 lines of code
13:05:42 <jix> kipple has 8 instructions
13:06:08 <kipple> depends on what you counts a an instruction
13:06:50 <kipple> but how do you get to 8?
13:07:05 <jix> 1: a<1 2: b>a 3: a+1 4: a+a 5: a-1 6: a-b 7: a? 8:(a )
13:07:47 <kipple> you count + and - two times?
13:08:23 <jix> yes because adding a value and adding a value popped from a stack are two different things
13:08:59 <kipple> yes, but they are still the same insctruction IMHO
13:09:26 <kipple> ( and ) could be considered two instructions
13:09:41 <jix> but in my internal representation they are one instruction
13:11:03 <kipple> ok. in mine they are separate tokes
13:11:28 <kipple> but there is only one + and one -
13:12:12 <jix> but my interpreter is written for speed and it's faster if it knows if it has to add a value stored in the program or stored in a stack
13:12:37 <kipple> mine is not written for speed
13:12:47 <jix> and the looping is faster if i just say: loop with this subprogram instead of go back to this thing if blablabla...
13:12:51 <kipple> will be intersting to see how they compare
13:13:42 <jix> i think i still have to finetune the values for reallocating the stack memory
13:14:13 <kipple> I tokenize the code into a linked list, and corresponding ( and ) 's are linked directly
13:14:47 <jix> i tokenize the code into a linked tree and the loop instruction forks the tree
13:15:56 <jix> my parser is really ugly code
13:16:06 <kipple> probably more efficient way to do it than mine
13:16:29 <jix> for(i3=1;lchr+i3<mchr && NRANGE(lchr[i3]);i3++){
13:17:22 <jix> in c i always have to check for bounds to get sure that i'm not reading from outside the string
13:18:27 <jix> yes? .. i thought java Strings have bound checking
13:19:05 <kipple> if go outside the bounds you get an exception
13:19:20 <jix> that's what i want
13:19:31 <kipple> so you can choose: check yourself, or handle the exception
13:19:42 <kipple> I chose to check manually
13:20:02 <jix> if i read outside of the string i can be sure that the instruction is incomplete and just skip it
13:20:33 <kipple> which string are you talking about btw? I though you meant the entire source code string
13:21:16 <jix> a<12 ok ? i'm not done with >
13:21:21 <kipple> never mind, I'm thinking in the way I've implemented it
13:21:52 <kipple> I start at the operator and then moves to both left and right to parse the operands
13:22:03 <kipple> and then I have to check that I don't go out of bounds
13:22:21 <jix> "a<12" check 'a' is 'a' an instruction ? no.. next char: '<' .. instruction! it needs a stack on the left site.. ok end on the right site is.. a number so seek until the end of the string OR to a nonnumber char
13:23:08 <kipple> ok. then we do it a bit differently
13:23:39 <kipple> I read until I find an operator ( <>+-?() ). only then do I look for operands
13:24:00 <kipple> I don't consider 'a' an instruction
13:24:09 <jix> i neither..
13:24:30 <jix> check 'a' is 'a' an instruction ? no..
13:25:37 <jix> i'm done with >
13:25:57 <kipple> seems we do it pretty much the same way after all, then :)
13:26:12 <jix> but we handle () differently
13:27:49 <kipple> and I use lots of objects, so your's is probably faster
13:27:59 <jix> i use lots of structs
13:28:20 <jix> hmm.. one for every stack .. and one for every instruction
13:28:33 <jix> 2 different struct types
13:28:48 <jix> but i inline the stack methods !
13:28:51 <kipple> I have one object for every stack, instruction and operand (including numbers)
13:29:23 <jix> operands are part of the instruction struct
13:29:57 <jix> union { stack* s; int i;} op_a;
13:30:20 <jix> for stack and int.. op_b has also an p for a sub program (looping)
13:39:14 <jix> 1 bug fixed
13:40:00 <jix> refixed the bug
13:45:03 <jix> IT WORKS the parser works
13:45:25 <jix> now i can test the interpreter
13:57:32 <jix> hmm there is a bug
13:57:43 <jix> i get tons of malloc warnings
13:57:53 <jix> and the program doesn't terminate
14:04:41 <jix> uh.. i thought it was the interpreter.. but it was the token-tree-freeer
14:35:10 <jix> hmm the parser doesn't parse (@>o) correctly
14:38:11 <jix> ok fixed the "one instruction bug"
14:59:14 <jix> fixed the nested loop bug
15:00:20 <kipple> getting close to a release?
15:00:35 <jix> but the @ stack doesn't work
15:01:45 <jix> i wrote a small debug feature that allows me to dump out the token-tree (the output is valid kipple)
15:28:56 <jix> ok fixed all bugs
15:29:24 <kipple> hmm. there is no 99 bottles of beer enty in Chef...
15:29:32 <kipple> maybe I'll have to write one
15:30:42 <CXI> HQ9+ is the best language ever
15:31:30 <kipple> but it lacks some important features!
15:31:59 <kipple> mainly the F command (print fibonacci numbers) and the P command (prime numbers)
15:32:55 <jix> extend it F prints the first <accumulator-value> fibonaccis and P the first <accumulator-value> primes
15:33:18 <jix> oh and what about calculating pi ?
15:33:26 <kipple> what? using the accumulator? I find that offensive!
15:33:41 <jix> ok.. F prints all fibonacci numbers
15:33:45 <jix> and P all primes
15:34:32 <kipple> yes. all would be best
15:36:23 <CXI> sure, but it does so using a Las Vegas method
15:36:33 <CXI> so you get an output at the end :P
15:37:25 <kipple> and the interpreter optimizes this so it is extrememly fast: while(true)
15:37:50 <CXI> and we could call the language zzzzbest
15:51:50 <jix> i'm done with version 0.1
15:52:35 <jix> does windows need special header files ?
15:53:16 <kipple> what are you developing with?
15:53:36 <kipple> will it compile with gcc?
15:54:09 <jix> x-code uses gcc
15:54:13 <jix> but not make etc...
15:55:42 <jix> be warned my c coding style is baaaad...
15:56:18 <kipple> as long as it compiles :)
15:56:23 <jix> without warnings
15:56:36 <jix> but i use no header files
15:56:43 <jix> no function prototypes
15:56:56 <jix> i reuse variables for different things
15:57:05 <jix> all in all very clean code ^^
16:02:22 <jix> http://www.harderweb.de/jix/cipple.c
16:04:25 <jix> now download it and have fun
16:05:17 <jix> kipple: ping
16:08:42 <kipple> it mops the floor with my intperpreter!
16:08:51 <kipple> 7 times faster on prime.k
16:13:54 <jix> generating primes<1000 right now
16:14:25 <jix> real 0m28.048s user 0m23.518s sys 0m0.117s
16:14:45 <jix> and also try compiling it with -DINSPECT
16:15:34 <jix> dump the internal representation to kipple code
16:15:52 <kipple> how is that different from the source code?
16:16:34 <jix> it includes the internal instructions
16:17:02 <jix> http://rafb.net/paste/results/E46ILK92.html this is the dump of prime.k with primes<1000
16:19:14 <jix> hmm does it handle a+a correctly ?
16:19:34 <kipple> I don't know. How does it handle a+a?
16:19:52 <jix> the wrong way
16:20:50 <kipple> the correct way: case '+': operand1.push(operand1.peek() + operand2.pop());
16:22:06 <kipple> my interpreter took 6.42 mins to run the brainfuck interpreter with 99 bottles of beer as input
16:23:25 <jix> wait for ppcipple the kipple > ppc compiler
16:23:37 <jix> but now i have to do homework
16:26:17 <graue> isn't there a free ppc emulator one can download, the way there are myriad x86 emulators?
16:26:51 <jix> ppc emulators are slow
16:27:02 <jix> x86 emulators are fast
16:27:43 <jix> the ppc has more registers so a ppc emulator needs to put the registers into the ram.. the other way around the registers are stored all in registers
16:29:22 <graue> well, i could at least use your compiler, though
16:29:37 <graue> how about a ppc emulator for amd64? amd64 has more registers
16:29:59 <jix> i don't know
16:30:17 <jix> kipple > pcc G5 .. have fun
16:45:51 <graue> man, i've been prevented from downloading channel logs off that meme.b9.com site
16:45:53 <graue> Your request has been denied from ip68-100-130-21.dc.dc.cox.net and logged into our system for exceeding the throttle limits.
16:45:53 <graue> HTTP/1.1 503 Service Unavailable Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 15:45:56 GMT Connection: Close Server: AllegroServe/1.2.42 Content-Type: text/html
17:41:08 <kipple> maybe they'll provide a .gz if you ask?
17:53:48 <jix> cipple 1.2 is faster
17:54:20 <jix> reduced calls to realloc malloc and free
17:55:21 <jix> memory requirements for small programs are higher but primes<1000 is 8.736s vs 28.048s
17:56:11 <jix> 0.2 not 1.2
18:23:50 <kipple> is the 0.2 version uploaded to your web, or is that still 0.1? (would be nice if you included version # in the comments
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18:26:57 <graue> i got all the logfiles from http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/
18:27:24 <graue> i'll provide a zipped paq6 file to anyone interested in making a backup
18:27:46 <kipple> maybe we should store them in the files archive
18:28:08 <kipple> a monthly zip or somehting
18:30:00 <graue> tgz would compress a lot better
18:30:27 <kipple> a was using zip as a generic term. didn't mean to imply any particular algorithm
18:30:56 <kipple> correction: I was using...
18:32:53 <graue> oh, of course then
18:33:28 <graue> ...what happens if someone invents an esoteric language called 'logs'?
18:43:38 <kipple> ah, you mean with the archive?
18:43:59 <graue> i decided to put the logs in an esoteric/logs directory
18:44:25 <kipple> a bit more descriptive name would be nice
18:44:34 <graue> why, what's wrong with that name?
18:44:50 <kipple> it doesn't say what kind of logs
18:45:13 <kipple> what if we find out that there are other things we want to log?
18:46:29 <graue> we may want to retain other things, but i doubt we'll want to log them
18:46:37 <graue> collections of mailing list messages are called 'archives'
18:47:04 <kipple> I would still call it irc_logs or something, just to make it more obvious
18:47:37 <kipple> but it's not a big deal
18:49:37 <graue> okay, they are now in esoteric/irclogs
18:51:43 <kipple> *sigh* I was in the process of writing an INTERCAL article in the wiki, and the accidently close the wrong tab :(
18:52:05 <kipple> dang, my spelling is bad today....
18:53:16 <graue> the INTERCAL thing, more than the spelling
18:53:35 <kipple> well, the spelling too :)
18:57:42 <jix> tar bzip2 is one of the best compressions for text (imho) and more people have bzip2 than paq6
18:58:22 <jix> the online version is 0.1
19:01:14 <kipple> will that be the place you'll keep it (and later versions)?
19:01:29 <kipple> i.e. can I link to it from the Kipple page?
19:03:40 <jix> www.harderweb.de/jix/cipple/cipple.c is always the newest version
19:03:48 <jix> www.harderweb.de/jix/cipple/cipple.x.x.c is version x.x
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21:29:57 <Keymaker> i finally made my version of 99 bottles of beer in brainfuck. here's the result: http://www.bf-hacks.org/hacks/beer.b
21:30:22 <Keymaker> warning: brainfuck or/and beer destroys braincells!
21:30:37 <Keymaker> as well, i don't support alcohol drinks
21:31:13 <Keymaker> i'll probably make a shorter version sometime..
21:32:14 <Keymaker> i started the code the previous night and continued during this day
21:32:20 <Keymaker> well, not all the time, of course
21:32:46 <Keymaker> anyways, good night. zzZzzz....
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21:41:39 * lament wonders why keymaker doesn't support alcoholic drinks
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22:41:39 <kipple> lament: doesn't really fit with the finnish stereotype, does it?
22:42:09 <jix> kipple: you got the new url of cipple
22:42:29 <kipple> www.harderweb.de/jix/cipple/cipple.c ?
22:43:30 <jix> i wrote a new kipple programm
22:43:37 <jix> read a number from input square it and output it
22:44:05 <jix> and it ignores spaces and \n in input..
22:45:34 <kipple> I'll put it on the web site if you want
22:50:50 -!- wooby has joined.
22:59:42 <kipple> wooby: was it you who owned the esolangs.org domain?
23:00:05 <kipple> any reason it points to the old wiki?
23:00:32 -!- wooby has quit.
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23:03:52 <wooby> ok it's pointing at 70.85.100.4
23:04:55 <wooby> it will take a little bit to kick in
23:10:19 <jix> hm 99bob page: Use Whitespace, TABs and Returns to make your code readable.. is it ok to not use them ?
23:10:36 <jix> because my dc solution doesn't use them
23:11:29 <kipple> well, the Malbolge entry isn't exactly readable ;)
23:18:34 <jix> http://rafb.net/paste/results/sx4WtH56.html
23:19:17 <jix> and for square.k : http://rafb.net/paste/results/OZLhGE38.html
23:20:14 <jix> dc seems to be an esolang
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00:05:17 <pgimeno> wooby: I'm afraid there's a problem with virtual hosting in esolangs.org
00:06:10 <pgimeno> Keymaker: nice work your 99BOB :)
00:10:18 <graue> oh, yeah, esoteric.voxelperfect.net is a name-based virtual host
00:10:27 <graue> i'll have to set up an alias for esolangs.org, i think i can do that though
00:11:00 <pgimeno> oh, it's good you can do that yourself, here it is not free
00:11:44 <graue> i get 15 domains and/or subdomains, and infinite aliases for those, i think
00:11:58 <graue> haven't tried it before though
00:17:45 <graue> cool, it's working
00:26:47 <kipple> hmm. Chef is actually a bit like Kipple :D
00:28:11 <graue> registering the domain was the hard part
00:28:34 <pgimeno> of course! thanks wooby :)
00:30:27 <kipple> graue and wooby: nice!
00:47:34 <wooby> *.esolangs.org points there
00:48:04 <wooby> so if you so choose, you can make wiki.esolangs.org
00:49:09 <graue> nah, esolangs.org/wiki is fine
00:50:52 <kipple> esolangs.org/wiki doesn't work though. must use esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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01:50:48 <graue> what happened to cipple?
01:51:07 <graue> it's no longer online
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02:17:13 <graue> what's with the 2L language's lack of input and output?
02:18:13 <lament> http://www.gertler.com/nat/abusedimages.html
02:19:02 <graue> is it possible to do anything practical with TL0 and TL1?
02:20:37 <GregorR-L> Well, is Hello World practical? :P
02:23:47 <GregorR-L> By the way, "what's with it" is that it was the only way I could figure out how to get rid of that pesky third instruction ;)
02:27:47 <graue> maybe i'll make an improved version, 3L
02:29:04 <GregorR-L> Would the third instruction be I/O?
02:29:24 <GregorR-L> I'm not positive how much putting I/O in TL0/1 hurts the turing completeness *shrugs*
02:29:57 <GregorR-L> It doesn't, since I/O is irrelevent to turing completeness.
02:30:07 <graue> oh, the 2 is number of instructions
02:30:11 <graue> i hadn't realized that
02:30:22 <graue> and yes, I/O is irrelevant to Turing completeness
02:30:39 <graue> by the way, you technically have a third instruction: whitespace
02:31:26 <GregorR-L> That's true, since it has significance to the location of the program pointer which in turn has significance to how many instructions you can fit.
02:32:18 <graue> also, you say that the program pointer starts out moving down
02:32:22 <graue> but in your example it starts out moving right
02:32:31 <CXI> it's the 2 language for approximate value of 2
02:32:38 <GregorR-L> The example was just a chunk from somewhere in the middle *shrugs*
02:33:13 <GregorR-L> It would need to be turned right in the beginning anyway.
02:33:39 <graue> you should make it clear that that isn't a complete program then
02:38:18 <graue> i think a language should be called "Turing Complete Plus" if it can perform arbitrary operations on streams of input and output
02:39:13 <graue> or maybe Unix-complete
02:40:58 * GregorR-L goes back to writing an esoteric programming plugin for Giki >:)
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07:10:41 <dbc> ->++>+++>+>+>+++>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>+>++>+++>++>>+++>+>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
07:10:41 <dbc> >>>>>>>>>>>+>+>>+++>>>>+++>>>+++>+>>>>>>>++>+++>+++>+>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>++>+++>
07:10:41 <dbc> >>+>+>+>+>++>+++>+>+>>+++>>>>>>>+>+>>>+>+>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>+++>+>+++>+>++>+++>+
07:10:41 <dbc> +>>+>+>++>+++>+>+>>+++>>>+++>+>>>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>+++>+>>+++>>+++>>+[[>
07:10:44 <dbc> >+[>]+>+[<]<-]>>[>]<+<+++[<]<<+]>+[>>]+++>+[+[<++++++++++++++++>-]<++++++++++.<]
07:11:35 <dbc> Slightly modified version of Erik Bosman's quine. 400 bytes.
07:11:50 <dbc> Or if we want to avoid using negative numbers, 540 bytes:
07:12:03 <dbc> >+++>++++>++>++>++++>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>++>++>+++>++++>++
07:12:03 <dbc> +>+>++++>++>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>++>+
07:12:03 <dbc> +>+>++++>+>+>+>++++>++>++>+++>++++>++++>++>++++>++>+>++++>+>+>++++>++>+++>++++>+
07:12:03 <dbc> +>++>++>++>+++>++++>++>++>+>++++>+>+>+>+>++++>++>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+++>++++>++++>+
07:12:03 <dbc> +>+>++++>++++>++>++++>++>+++>++++>+++>+>++>++>+++>++++>++>++>+>++++>+>+>++++>++>
07:12:03 <dbc> +>+>+++>++++>++++>++>+>++++>+>+>++++>++>++++>++>+>++++>+>++++[[>>+[>]+>+[<]<-]>>
07:12:05 <dbc> [>]++++>++[<]<<]>+[>>]<[+[<++++++++++++++++>-]<++++++++++.<]
07:50:33 <GregorR-L> Would the version with negatives work in an 8-bit wrap environment?
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08:06:41 <dbc> Or 7-bit for that matter.
08:18:03 -!- dbc has quit ("you have no chance to survive make your time.").
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08:20:46 <lament> What's a Schweinpenis?
08:38:35 <lament> do pig's penises always lie or something?
08:39:06 <GregorR-L> Why is he so racist against ... uh ... pig ... penises ...
08:39:26 <CXI> pig means strange things in german
08:43:07 <graue> if you type "I am not a Schweinpenis," you are assumed to actually be one
08:43:16 <graue> it attempts the trick less attentive readers
08:43:39 <GregorR-L> But it's no fun without unnecessary analyses.
08:44:01 <lament> i'm not sure how inattentive you have to be to not notice the "Are you a Schweinpenis? If so, type" part
08:44:09 <graue> the specifics of what exactly constitutes a Schweinpenis are not really important, given the nature of the joke
08:44:32 <lament> i would prefer to have it in reverse
08:44:48 <lament> If you're not a Schweinpenis, type "I'm a Schweinpenis"
08:45:03 <graue> that's a bit more obvious, though
08:53:44 <graue> which is a better URL, esoteric.voxelperfect.net or esolangs.org?
08:54:20 <graue> MediaWiki doesn't behave well when there are two different hostnames, apparently
08:56:55 <CXI> should esolangs.org just redirect to the wiki? you could have a file link there
08:57:26 <GregorR-L> The DNS can always be switched around, just as easily as a redirect.
08:58:34 <CXI> is there any kind of esolang symbol or logo or something?
08:59:21 <GregorR-L> Nobody can think of something esoteric enough :P
08:59:30 <CXI> impossible triangle? :P
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09:21:33 <graue> some piet code might make a nice logo
09:29:47 <lament> finally, a use for piet :)
10:18:11 <graue> i'm forbidden from accessing http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/kipple/samples/square.k
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13:04:32 <pgimeno> jix: did you write a dc version of 99BOB?
13:04:51 <jix> but the version i submitted has some overhead
13:04:53 <pgimeno> is it the one already listed there?
13:05:22 <jix> there is a dc version ?
13:05:42 <pgimeno> yeah, see the guestbook ;)
13:06:15 <pgimeno> I thought I saw it somewhere when you mentioned it
13:06:29 <jix> it's not my version
13:06:43 <jix> and my is cleaner
13:07:15 <jix> http://rafb.net/paste/results/b5mucz43.html
13:10:14 <pgimeno> hum, yours prints "1 bottle" correctly; the one in there doesn't
13:10:28 <jix> cleaner and better
13:10:45 <jix> i like the dc language
13:11:17 <jix> it's like an esolang.. but it's installed everywhere (ignore windows)
13:11:34 <fizzie> I like sed, for the same reasons.
13:11:41 <pgimeno> I've got it installed (cygwin)
13:15:24 <pgimeno> fizzie: but if you want to use sed as an esolang you have to use the Thue paradigm
13:16:58 <fizzie> We-ell, you can use sed like one would an ordinary imperative language, it's just a bit unelegant.
13:19:09 <pgimeno> well, I don't know enough sed actually
13:19:32 <pgimeno> so that was probably a wrong assumption on my side
13:19:37 <fizzie> It has conditional jumps (b, t) and s/// can be used for arithmetic. See http://www.gehennom.org/~fis/fib.sed for an example, albeit an ugly one.
13:22:42 <pgimeno> it's probably easy to write Keymaker's favorite :)
13:23:15 <pgimeno> (finding the digital root of a number, that is)
13:23:55 <jix> is there a digital root thing for kipple ?
13:24:01 <fizzie> It uses decimal numbers, some of my other sed programs use unary arithmetic since addition is a lot simpler that way. perf.sed in the same URL (well, different filename, obviously), for example, finds the perfect numbers.
13:24:05 * jix 's new favorite language is kipple
13:24:42 <kipple> jix: really? that's nice :)
13:24:52 <fizzie> (And then there's bef.sed, a really incomplete befunge interpreter.)
13:24:53 <pgimeno> dunno, jix - ask Keymaker ;(
13:25:18 <fizzie> I'd like to continue bef.sed, but I'm not quite sure how it works.
13:25:25 <fizzie> (Or if it works at all.)
13:26:00 * kipple is currently having fun with Chef
13:26:05 <fizzie> But that was in 2003 or something.
13:26:32 <kipple> jix: I don't think there is a digital root prog in Kipple
13:26:37 <fizzie> It _looks_ like it would use binary numbers (stored as 01011010-like strings) for coordinates.
13:26:44 <pgimeno> fizzie: anyway it's pretty cool
13:27:31 <pgimeno> fizzie: why? maybe because it's easier to make operatins that way?
13:27:46 <fizzie> Probably. The adder routine for decimal numbers was ~100 lines long.
13:27:54 <fizzie> Or was it 200, can't remember.
13:29:05 <pgimeno> hm, sounds like it should be easier than that (haven't tried though)
13:29:09 <fizzie> The 'determine current command from the playfield according to the binary coordinates' part of bef.sed is moderately clever.
13:30:41 <fizzie> It checks for set bits and discards either the top or bottom half of the playfield accordingly.
13:30:46 <fizzie> s/^\(..1....[^\n]*\n[^\n]*\n\)\([^\n]*\n\)\{16\}\(.*\)/\1\3/ isn't very pretty, though.
13:32:49 <pgimeno> I tend to agree about the prettiness :)
13:34:01 <pgimeno> and I might agree about the cleverness if I understood that ;)
13:37:09 <jix> kipple: but there is one
13:38:26 <jix> 14:27:34<kipple>jix: I don't think there is a digital root prog in Kipple
13:38:49 <jix> on my harddisk
13:40:07 * kipple is reading up on what a digital root actuall is
13:41:26 <kipple> hey, that's pretty neat!
13:43:03 <jix> www.harderweb.de/jix/cipple/droot.k and www.harderweb.de/jix/cipple/square.k
13:43:25 <kipple> is that the same square.k, or a new version?
13:43:57 <jix> but on my server
13:44:10 <jix> so i's going to stay online
13:44:27 <kipple> I've added it to the Kipple page as well
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13:47:42 <jix> my irc client stated to use 99% cpu
13:58:31 <jix> interesting: http://www.befunge.org/fyb/fyb/README
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15:29:35 <pgimeno> anyway, here's my 46-line decimal adder in sed: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/addsed-1.txt
15:30:57 <pgimeno> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/addsed-r.txt
15:33:01 <pgimeno> ZeroOne: I forgot, thanks for putting your Wikipedia articles into public domain!
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17:43:11 <Keymaker> i'll do my own version some day :)
17:45:14 <Keymaker> i think i could take 'befunge interpreter in brainfuck' to my summer project
17:45:58 <Keymaker> would offer plenty of challenge (which i actually don't need)
17:48:56 <Keymaker> the random generator wouldn't be the best
17:49:16 <Keymaker> but i have some ideas in my sleeve
17:49:39 <Keymaker> and another brainfuck related idea
17:49:47 <Keymaker> i've had for a while (maybe a day)
17:49:59 <Keymaker> it might be cool to have something
17:50:18 <Keymaker> brainfuck related e-zine / magazine
17:51:46 <pgimeno> the interested people are in geographic points.... heterogeneous
17:52:15 <pgimeno> distribution can be a pain
17:52:37 <pgimeno> I was thinking about the printed one
17:52:55 <Keymaker> although, printed one would be really cool!
17:53:07 <Keymaker> but i'd have no place to print it and stamps would pay too much
17:53:46 <pgimeno> no way, you wouldn't pay for the stamps
17:54:36 <kipple> heh. What would you call such a magazine?
17:55:40 <Keymaker> The Daily Brainfuck -- every 7 months!
17:56:19 <kipple> why just brainfuck? why not include other esolangs?
17:56:30 <Keymaker> i've thought about that as well
17:56:44 <Keymaker> might be good idea as well, kipple
17:57:21 <Keymaker> but probably virtual/electronic magazine would be better, i assume
17:58:00 <Keymaker> oh, and naturally the magazine would appear every time 'when it's done' :)
17:59:34 <Keymaker> but anyways; which one do you prefer: brainfuck or brainfuck & other lower esolanguage forms :)
18:00:32 <kipple> I imagine it would be a lot easier to find stuff to fill it with if you include other langs
18:00:43 <kipple> not sure how much you can say about brainfuck
18:01:09 <CXI> an esolang newsletter would be pretty cool
18:01:33 <CXI> you could call it Quine
18:01:45 <kipple> a printed magazine would be awesome, but I think electronic is the way to go
18:02:36 <Keymaker> Quine -- bringing you the esolang news since 2005!Quine -- bringing you the esolang news since 2005!
18:03:34 <CXI> Sample quine in HQ9+
18:03:48 <CXI> I can't help but laugh whenever I see an HQ9+ program
18:04:27 <Keymaker> it's quick to write Hello World with that language, as well..
18:04:47 <CXI> 99 bottles of beer is pretty cool too
18:05:16 <CXI> it's funny, I think they just included the accumulator operation because the language sounds much better with "plus" on the end
18:06:20 <Keymaker> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ it's so useful +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
18:07:50 <Keymaker> anyways, an esolang magazine would be nice since there could be allkinds of cool information about new languages, cool programs and
18:08:02 <Keymaker> other related, like cellular automaton perhaps etc.
18:10:22 <Keymaker> and getting news about the happenings of esolang "community" can be a bit hard
18:10:36 <kipple> "The Esoteric Programming Language Magazine With No Pronounceable Acronym"
18:10:36 <kipple> (for obvious reasons, abbreviated "QUINE")
18:11:04 <Keymaker> not to mention that something cool stuff can be only noticed on some page "my friend [name] made this cool program to [purpose of program]" and so on.
18:11:21 <Keymaker> like much stuff happen and one can't know it unless accidentally ending up to some site
18:11:52 <kipple> the mailinglist isn't exactly much help there anymore
18:13:18 <kipple> you don't? I thought I'd seen posts from you there?
18:13:28 <kipple> or maybe that was friends of bf?
18:13:54 <kipple> (they get sorted into the same folder in my mail, so I tend to confuse them)
18:14:05 <Keymaker> i once tried sending e-mail to esolangs list about that bfcc #1 (iirc) but not sure if it got there
18:14:28 <Keymaker> probably dbc sent it, can't remember :)
18:14:43 <Keymaker> but i have posted some messages to friends of brainfuck
18:15:19 <jix> my fyb prog is better than all example progs
18:15:27 <jix> i need challenge
18:15:56 <jix> http://www.befunge.org/fyb/fyb/README
18:18:04 <jix> but one may consider one of it's strategies as cheating ;)
18:23:39 <kipple> the esolang wiki is down already :(
18:23:51 <kipple> let's hope it's just a minor problem
18:27:19 <Keymaker> .-''__.--' _.'( | )`. `. `._ :
18:27:19 <Keymaker> .'__-'_ .--'' ._`---'_.-. `. `-`.
18:27:19 <Keymaker> ~ -.._ _ _ _ ..-_ `. `-._``--.._
18:27:21 <Keymaker> -~ -._ `-. -. `-._``--.._.--''.
18:27:54 <Keymaker> amazing what can be done with the characters
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18:34:40 <Keymaker2> i didn't know if i was disconnected or not so i hit 'disconnect' button by myself
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18:47:27 <Keymaker> hm. i think i'll go to read. the last exam before 2.5 month vacation is tomorrow..
18:47:48 <Keymaker> it's gonna feel awesome when i get home tomorrow -- finally i have some spare time! :D
18:48:02 <Keymaker> if i remember correct i first came to this channel around this time
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19:19:39 <fizzie> pgimeno; We-ell, if you convert to unary first, you might as well keep all the numbers in that representation and just convert to decimal before printing. (Nice 4-hour lag I have in answering.)
19:24:21 <GregorR> So, "the last exam before 2.5 month vacation is in 0.033 months"?
19:25:41 <pgimeno> fizzie: that's a good idea too
19:26:45 <jix> but i would call my strategy cheating
19:26:55 <GregorR> Well, send it to me by some means :P
19:28:30 <jix> http://www.harderweb.de/jix/langs/fyb/progs/nodefect.fyb
19:29:37 <kipple> what kind of "cheating" are we talking about here?
19:30:35 <jix> i first wrote a normal strategy .. but it wasn't able to defeat logicex.. and only drawed AllTricks.. so i "tuned" it for them.. but then antoher app drawed my.. so i retuned it for that prog too
19:30:56 <jix> the first line kills the self repairs of 3 progs
19:31:35 <jix> oh nodefect.. the name doesn't fit anymore
19:32:16 <jix> but, yes i change the code after the defect too.. but that's not fast enough for all apps.. that's the reason for the first line
19:32:50 <jix> and i'm always using **** because some progs are deleting *s
19:33:27 <GregorR> [x] disableLoopsAndBomb-1.fyb
19:33:48 <jix> why does it draw allTricks ?
19:34:02 <GregorR> You have to run it both ways to tell.
19:34:19 <GregorR> IE ./fukyorbrane a.fyb b.fyb and ./fukyorbrane b.fyb a.fyb are different.
19:34:20 <jix> i'm using the report script
19:34:33 <jix> oh.. my fault.. ^^
19:34:58 <GregorR> But yeah, it whooped me silly.
19:35:05 <GregorR> Mind if I add it to the site?
19:35:23 <jix> if you credit me.. no problem
19:35:42 <GregorR> You should put a lame copyright at the top like I do.
19:37:18 <GregorR> Ahh, good ol' even-weaker-than-the-alread-weak MIT/X Consortium license :P
19:38:17 <GregorR> Then I'll try to defeat it :)
19:39:30 <jix> it's strategy: kill allTricks,findAndDestroy,logicex, self repair, destroy @... code, try 4 times to lay a bomb to the opponents position(i added a ! in the +++s .. no idea why^^), bombing!
19:40:39 <jix> and the interpreter segfaults / buserrors sometimes
19:45:20 <jix> i tried to write a program that writes :; into the program to let it fork and fork.. but fyb crashes if i try to do that
19:55:03 <GregorR> You do know that forks only run once?
19:55:19 <GregorR> If you do :;, that'll just be two forks.
19:56:33 <GregorR> I still don't know why that would crash, buuuut :P
19:57:34 * GregorR just remembered that "nothing" defeats "mangler". That is hilarious :P
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20:03:19 <jix> i don't add one :; i add :;:;:;:;:;:;... so at every position of the program is a pointer
20:06:10 <GregorR> Since that ought to be a valid strategy.
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20:07:12 <jix> WUAHAHAHA my :; adder (i change it so it doesn't add to much of them) is very good
20:07:47 <jix> but it still segfaults
20:07:52 <jix> i'm optimizing it
20:07:58 <jix> and i have some more dummy bots in here
20:09:18 <jix> logicex [d] simplething.fyb
20:09:50 <jix> but it still segfaults
20:09:56 <jix> in some matches
20:11:20 <jix> Thread 0 Crashed:
20:11:20 <jix> 0 fukyorbrane 0x00002aec execcmd + 1212 (fukyorbrane.c:464)
20:11:20 <jix> 1 fukyorbrane 0x000032ec main + 1204 (fukyorbrane.c:206)
20:11:20 <jix> 2 fukyorbrane 0x00001b30 _start + 348 (crt.c:272)
20:11:20 <jix> 3 fukyorbrane 0x000019d0 start + 60
20:11:37 <jix> Exception: EXC_BAD_ACCESS (0x0001)
20:11:41 <jix> Codes: KERN_INVALID_ADDRESS (0x0001) at 0x00206749
20:12:44 <jix> simplething: draw: disableLoopsAndBomb, findAndDestroy, logicex, mangler.. no looses
20:17:48 <jix> http://www.harderweb.de/jix/langs/fyb/progs/simplething.fyb
20:18:36 <jix> and no tuned cheat code
20:19:02 <jix> even more simpler
20:19:45 <jix> away for.. 15mins
20:29:16 <GregorR> [x] disableLoopsAndBomb-1.fyb
20:29:30 <GregorR> I'm going to go cry into my pillow.
20:35:23 <jix> and it's a simple thing.. ;)
20:35:44 <GregorR> I just changed the point system so it's more useful.
20:35:54 <GregorR> It's now adjusted to a range of -100 - 100
20:36:16 <jix> you know the corewar hills ?
20:36:41 <jix> i'm going to host hills for fyb
20:36:59 <GregorR> If you want me to do any coding in PHP, I'm game.
20:37:17 <jix> Ahhh NOOOO PHP!!!
20:37:23 <GregorR> Ooooooooooooooooooooh, perl guy?
20:37:29 <jix> NOOOO PERL ??!??!?!?
20:37:43 <GregorR> What's your language of choice?
20:37:48 <jix> and kipple
20:37:52 <jix> but not for web apps
20:38:47 <jix> i hope the segfaults are mac os x only
20:38:58 <GregorR> I'm not getting them in GNU/Linux-land.
20:39:08 <GregorR> Unless the latest version doesn't do them?
20:39:22 <jix> my server is running debian so it's safe to use the interpreter
20:39:31 <jix> the latest version doesn't do them
20:39:45 <GregorR> I await a very cool webapp :)
20:40:16 <GregorR> Oh, adjust the score like so: Points = ((-100 * losses) + (100 * wins)) / count
20:41:18 <jix> try to defeat simplething i want challenge
20:41:34 <GregorR> I'm trying, I'm trying :'(
20:42:49 <jix> i'm trying too ;)
20:50:46 <GregorR> I made a complicated mangler that defeats simple!
20:51:21 <GregorR> It gets -20 points, but we'll ignore that.
20:52:32 <jix> is simplething still #1 ?
20:52:39 <jix> stupid question ^^
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20:56:04 <jix> is logicix your best prog ?
20:56:38 <jix> ':{>}[+]++++++++++++++!;********' beats logicix
20:56:51 <jix> but simplething too ?!
20:57:00 <GregorR-L> Yeah, I know findanddestroy beat logicex.
20:57:22 <jix> ok always quit using multiple *s
20:58:13 <GregorR-L> To make mangler defect, partially, but what's your reason?
21:00:25 <GregorR-L> BTW, it's awesome that somebody else has taken an interest in FYB, you rock ;)
21:06:12 <jix> because some bots try to delete them ... if you put more of them in the code they need more time and you can quit some of your threads (no floating pointers)
21:11:28 <jix> only simplething and findAndDestroy to beat
21:12:53 <jix> only find and destroy
21:15:14 <jix> no one left
21:16:16 <GregorR-L> I'm going to wait for you to stop beating yourself before I try ;)
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21:16:59 <jix> http://www.harderweb.de/jix/langs/fyb/progs/runbomber.fyb
21:19:16 <jix> oh copyright...
21:20:20 <GregorR-L> I make the weakest copyright ever, and yet people are reluctant to use it ;)
21:20:38 <jix> everyone should use my code
21:20:55 <jix> but i can give no warranty so.. why not use that license ?
21:21:38 <GregorR-L> If you used NO license, in all technicality nobody would have any right to do anything with your code.
21:22:11 <GregorR-L> Though publishing it online implies right for single-use exclusive distribution.
21:22:53 <GregorR-L> Unless you explicitly said "this is in the public domain"
21:22:59 <GregorR-L> Which is very different from unlicensed.
21:23:46 <jix> write a bot that beats all others, please!
21:25:21 <jix> i have a new idea
21:26:00 <GregorR-L> DAMN YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOU
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21:30:15 <jix> /away giving you a (little) chance to beat me
21:30:41 <GregorR-L> I'm actually dealing with upgrading computers right now, so don't really have time to write FYB progs at the moment :P
21:41:49 <GregorR> Still with the no comments :P
21:45:26 <GregorR> runbomber.fyb [x] allTricks-1.fyb [x] disableLoopsAndBomb-1.fyb [x] findAndDestroy-1.fyb [x] logicex-1.fyb [x] mangler-1.fyb [x] nodefect.fyb [x] nothing-1.fyb [x] runbomber.fyb [x] selfReplicating-1.fyb [x] simplething.fyb total points: 100
22:04:47 <jix> i commented runbomber
22:10:37 <jix> a seeker is :{>}; a fast seeker is (i don't know if they are faster but it seems so) :{>>}; and :>{>>};
22:15:37 <GregorR> I don't think it's faster, but it's harder to catch.
22:15:49 <GregorR> I guess it would be faster...
22:16:09 <GregorR> {>} runs as {>}{>}{>}, {>>} runs as {>>}{>>}{>>}, so half the commands are moves, vs. 1/3rd./
22:16:30 <jix> hehe faster and harder to catch
22:21:45 <jix> rungluebomber.fyb is even better than runbomber.fyb
22:22:00 <jix> the new 100points program
22:22:21 <jix> my new idea.. works!
22:23:13 <jix> http://www.harderweb.de/jix/langs/fyb/progs/rungluebomber.fyb
22:23:59 <GregorR> Isn't adding "glue" even slower than adding bombs...?
22:24:43 <jix> its run+glue+bomber
22:25:07 <GregorR> That's not what I meant, actually.
22:25:12 <GregorR> But I realized the folly of my argument
22:25:15 <GregorR> rungluebomber.fyb [x] allTricks-1.fyb [x] disableLoopsAndBomb-1.fyb [x] findAndDestroy-1.fyb [x] logicex-1.fyb [x] mangler-1.fyb [x] nodefect.fyb [x] nothing-1.fyb [x] runbomber.fyb [x] rungluebomber.fyb [x] selfReplicating-1.fyb [x] simplething.fyb total points: 100
22:26:55 <jix> i have no idea for a new bot
22:27:29 <jix> it's your turn .. i'm going to bad its 23:28 here.. school tomorrow :-|
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00:07:19 <kipple> Yay! I got a working 99 bottles of beer in Chef :)
00:07:50 <kipple> now the code only needs a facelift
00:13:38 <GregorR-L> Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, cookin' up some bottles-o-beer.
00:15:18 <kipple> and it has more than 3 times the code lines of the ORK version...
00:24:36 <kipple> hmm. there seems to be some serious performance issues...
00:25:02 <kipple> 5 verses takes 11 secs. 10 verses takes 35s, and 25 verses takes 2m35s!!!
00:42:28 <GregorR-L> It really ought to take about .01secs :P
00:46:56 <kipple> accoriding to my calculations 99 should take about 40 mins :D
00:48:27 <kipple> I plotted the times for 5, 10, 25 and 50 verses into my calculator, and had it find a function for it. the number of secs is: 0.3x^2-1.66x+16.1 (where x is number of verses)
00:50:29 <kipple> sorry. slight miscalculation. should take 47 minutes
00:51:22 <kipple> and it doesn't produce any output until it's done
00:52:02 <kipple> well, it's a very slow computer, but still....
00:52:29 <kipple> I wonder if it's the interpreter, or if I've done something really stupid in the code...
00:52:56 <GregorR-L> while (1) { (interpret-interpret); sleep(5); }
00:53:22 <kipple> that would not account for a quadratic increase in time
00:53:42 <GregorR-L> for (i = 0; ; i++) { (interpret); sleep(i); }
00:54:45 <kipple> woo! 10 verses in 1.2 secs!
01:23:08 <kipple> I think it is the sub-recipes that's the problem. Each sub-recipe call results in all the stacks being copied every time
01:51:04 <kipple> yay. I got 99 verses down to 20 secs!!
01:51:21 <kipple> Warning: sub-recipes in Chef are EXTREMELY inefficient
01:55:44 <GregorR> Next time I'm doing intensive Chef programs I'll remember that ;)
01:56:47 <kipple> a performance increase with a factor of 135 is quite a lot :D
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06:16:20 <graue_> i see, from the log, apparently the esolang wiki was down this morning?
06:16:24 <graue_> what was wrong with it?
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12:31:12 <CXI> ((x % y) - x) % (1 - y)
12:31:32 <CXI> ((x % y) - x) / (1 - y)
12:31:45 <CXI> returns 1 if x >= y and 0 otherwise
12:36:07 <pgimeno> can't you count with MAX() and MIN() functions?
12:36:32 <fizzie> I doubt that. x = 1000, y = 10: ((x % y) - x) = ((1000 % 10) - 1000) = -1000; (1 - y) = (1 - 10) = -9; -1000/-9 = 111. Perhaps it would work with /(1-x).
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12:42:39 <CXI> hmm *checks maths again*
12:43:28 <CXI> oh, right, I messed something up with the mod, it would seem
12:43:47 <CXI> only works for a certain range
12:44:09 <CXI> (and I meant just -y, not 1-y)
12:44:45 <pgimeno> then it'd be the same as (x - (x%y)) / y
12:45:05 <pgimeno> is it integer division? are the variables integer?
12:46:24 <pgimeno> is the division defined for a denominator of 0?
12:48:10 <kipple> graue: about the down time: Don't know what was wrong. I got a "Could not locate remote server" error. But it didn't last long
12:48:39 <pgimeno> probably a server mainteinance; that happens also in my server
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14:05:04 <kipple> so, hows that esolang of your coming along, jix?
14:05:25 <kipple> was it decl it was called?
14:08:20 <jix> i'm still working on the parser
14:45:53 <graue> what's the crazy math for, CXI?
14:46:19 <CXI> well, I've been idly wondering if it's possible to make a language based on maths with no conditions
14:46:55 <CXI> but first I have to work out how to replace things with maths
14:47:03 <graue> have you seen SMITH?
14:47:30 <graue> it has no if() or while(), and makes you simulate both by copying instructions forward in memory
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15:07:57 <Keymaker> jix: how do i use that interpreter?
15:27:29 <kipple> keymaker: cipple filename.k
15:28:03 <kipple> though if the program doesn't use input you should use cipple filename.k < /dev/null
15:28:41 <kipple> otherwise it will block for input (which you can stop with CTRL-D)
15:29:26 <kipple> that's an unfortunate effect of the kipple design, that the interpreter has to wait for input, even though the program doesn't use it :(
15:30:58 <kipple> hmm. perhaps the interpreter could analyze the code, and check if input is used...
15:31:18 <Keymaker> by the way, is 1>b<1>b<1 valid kipple?
15:31:41 <Keymaker> so it would finally have 1 1 1 in b stack?
15:32:00 <kipple> no it would have 1 1 1 1 in the b stack
16:05:40 <pgimeno> kipple: how does input work?
16:06:08 <kipple> all input is pushed onto the i stack BEFORE the program is executed
16:06:42 <kipple> input while the program is running is not possible (at least not in the first version of Kipple)
16:06:48 <pgimeno> can't that be implemented as lazy input?
16:07:18 <pgimeno> "lazy" is a term meaning that the actual action is delayed just until needed
16:07:52 <Keymaker> but since the input is asked before, that isn't really delaying it until needed :p
16:08:05 <kipple> hmm. not that easy I think
16:08:16 <pgimeno> whenever a program tries to use the input stack for the first time, the input will be read
16:09:00 <pgimeno> that will change the behaviour, though
16:09:11 <kipple> the problem is that the input stack might be used for other purposes (it is not exclusively for input)
16:09:36 <pgimeno> well, when the first character coming from input is to be used
16:10:32 <graue> why don't you not block for a keypress until an operation is done that needs to know whether more input is left?
16:11:04 <pgimeno> kipple: imagine that you keep a count of elements on the 'i' stack
16:11:34 <pgimeno> when it's about to become negative for the first time, you push all input
16:11:38 <malaprop> it's be weird for the interpreter to pause for input when code tries to push onto the input stack.
16:12:17 <pgimeno> I think it's not good for writing interactive programs
16:13:15 <kipple> as it is now it is perfectly legal to pop from an empty stack (will return 0). so you can easily check if the program has recieved any input. this will not work if a pop will result in a getchar()
16:13:35 <kipple> anyway, if you want interactive programs, use something else :) Like Kipple 05 for instance...
16:14:59 <pgimeno> I don't see the problem; if all input is pushed at the beginning of the program, how is that different from what I've described?
16:15:51 <pgimeno> if you pop from the 'i' stack and there's input, you don't receive a 0
16:16:36 <graue> why would the interpreter have to pause for input when code pushes on the input stack?
16:16:38 <pgimeno> similarly, if you pop from the 'i' stack in 'lazy input' mode, then all input is gathered and pushed and you don't receive a 0 either
16:16:50 <kipple> as far as I understood your solution, if you pop the i stack and it's empty, then you would trigger a getchar(), no?
16:17:07 <pgimeno> it would trigger the whole input stream to be read
16:17:49 <kipple> then it would behave differently than the spec says. that's the problem...
16:18:06 <kipple> of course, it would work, it would just be different
16:18:13 * Keymaker goes to buy hamburger with fries.
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16:18:47 <graue> you could have a -pedantic switch, which no one would use, for following the spec completely
16:18:49 <pgimeno> different in what sense? the only difference I see is that some output can be shown before performing the actual input, but it's otherwise indistinguishable
16:19:28 <pgimeno> that's the whole principle of "lazy" operation which is implemented in so many places
16:19:44 <kipple> the difference being that you cannot pop the i stack, and find out if any input was passed to the program, because that would trigger input to be read
16:20:16 <pgimeno> yeah, and if no input was passed to the program then that input won't be read anyway
16:20:54 <pgimeno> the idea is just delaying the action until it's needed
16:21:52 <pgimeno> that way you don't perform input unless it's needed
16:22:10 <pgimeno> which was what you suggested anyway
16:24:12 <kipple> consider the following program: it checks to see if there is any input by popping the i stack, and checking for 0. if 0 then print "please provide input!" and terminates. else it performs some operations on the input
16:24:35 <kipple> how would you do that with lazy input? (am I missing something?)
16:25:24 <pgimeno> instead of reading the input at the beginning of the program, you do that when the program does the pop and before returning the result
16:25:31 <malaprop> print "please provide inpurt: ", pop input stack
16:26:06 <kipple> but then it would print "pleas provide input" every time, no?
16:26:31 <malaprop> It would want input every time, no?
16:26:45 <pgimeno> not if there's input because it will be pushed at that moment and return the first byte of the input
16:27:21 <kipple> malaprop: yes, but only prompt for it if it doesn't get any at execution
16:29:04 <pgimeno> kipple: in other words, it's the implementation of the pop operation the one which reads the input: if the instruction is a pop, and the stack is 'i', and the number of elements is 0, then read the input (if any) and return the first byte (or 0 if none); otherwise perform as any other stack pop
16:30:08 <malaprop> pgimeno: And, if stack is empty and no input is given, the stack stays empty and future calls don't try to get input.
16:31:05 <pgimeno> and if it's used as any other stack but it never is popped when empty, no input will be read
16:31:22 <pgimeno> s/never is popped/is never popped/
16:32:23 <kipple> it might work, though I still have a suspicion it would change the behavior of some programs
16:33:14 <pgimeno> lazy techniques are used quite often; e.g. some text editors load fonts when you press the key that needs them
16:34:14 <pgimeno> the only difference from the user's point of view is that some output can be shown before any input is read
16:34:26 <pgimeno> that would only make a difference in the console
16:35:14 <kipple> no. no output is shown before the program is finished anyway :)
16:35:56 <kipple> the interpreter itself has no concept of I/O
16:36:26 <pgimeno> then it would make absolutely no difference
16:36:40 <pgimeno> oh, and there's java "just-in-time" compiling which is the same concept
16:37:17 <kipple> the difference would be that you can not check whether input was provided, because that would trigger input to be provided ;)
16:38:05 <malaprop> That's not so different from now, where every run triggers input to be provided.
16:38:19 <kipple> unless you use the -n switch
16:38:34 <kipple> which causes input to be ignored
16:38:36 <pgimeno> well, it must behave exactly the same as is currently done at the beginning of the program
16:39:36 <kipple> yes. I will think more on this, and consider it for Kipple 05
16:40:05 <kipple> thanks for the ideas guys :)
16:41:27 <pgimeno> actually it can be implemented in any current kipple compiler
16:45:24 <graue> how many stacks does a language need to be Turing-complete?
16:47:18 <graue> so a single deque would be enough, since it can be treated as two stacks, right?
16:48:53 <fizzie> Actually a single queue (not a deque) should suffice.
16:49:13 <fizzie> According to some googling there is a working representation of two stacks in a single queue.
16:51:44 <pgimeno> btw, infinite minesweeper is turing-complete
16:53:29 <pgimeno> it'd be nice to use minesweeper to perform calculations :)
16:56:28 <fizzie> I'm not sure how that's supposed to work.
16:58:21 <graue> a deque-based language would be boring anyway
16:59:26 <pgimeno> well, the Turing tape is expressed as cells
17:00:49 <pgimeno> http://web.mat.bham.ac.uk/R.W.Kaye/minesw/miesw.htm#infinite%20minesweeper
17:01:47 <pgimeno> http://web.mat.bham.ac.uk/R.W.Kaye/minesw/minesw.htm#infinite%20minesweeper
17:08:46 <fizzie> Heh, that's quite far from ordinary minesweeper, but intresting still.
17:11:46 <pgimeno> not that far in my opinion but yes, quite interesting :)
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17:28:31 <Keymaker2> "According to some googling there is a working representation of two stacks in a single queue."
17:30:41 <fizzie> Well, http://jackson.cs.miami.edu/~burt/papers/1993.1/Saq-JAIIO-2.ps has a proof of the queue-automata-is-equivalent-to-turing-machine thing, but it doesn't (unless I misread, I just briefly looked at it) use two-stacks-in-a-queue, that one was a CS assignment or something.
17:48:15 <graue> i think i just got a great esolang idea
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17:52:08 <kipple> graue: well, tell us already! :)
17:56:05 <graue> when i'm sure it works
17:56:40 <sp3tt> lol. I write 99 bottles in Chef, come on here, and it's been done a day before XD
17:57:46 <sp3tt> I wrote the interpreter too :)
17:57:59 <sp3tt> http://rename.noll8.nu/sp3tt/Beer.chef
17:58:12 <kipple> you've written a new interpreter?
17:58:39 <sp3tt> It can't handle stir and serve with yet though.
17:58:57 <sp3tt> I am a bit unsure of how to implement serve with.
17:59:00 <kipple> that's my biggest issue with the old one. It so extremely SLOW on serve with
17:59:28 <sp3tt> If the sous-chef changes the mixing bowls, does that affect the main chef?
17:59:59 <sp3tt> But the sous-chef's mixing bowls are passed to the main-chef?
18:00:01 <kipple> but the contents of the sous chef's bowl #1 is added to the main bowl #1 IIRC
18:00:56 <sp3tt> "When the auxiliary recipe is finished, the ingredients in its first mixing bowl are placed in the same order into the calling chef's first mixing bowl."
18:01:14 <kipple> the problem is the copying of ALL the stacks each time a sous chef is called
18:01:49 <sp3tt> I was thinking of making the execute() function return the mixing bowls...
18:02:01 <kipple> well, if you have read the logs here you've probably seen my performance issues :)
18:02:30 <sp3tt> Yes.... 47 minutes for 99 bottles XD
18:02:50 <kipple> it's on an old 187 MHz, but still...
18:03:41 <kipple> 47minutes to 20 secs is definately the best optimization I've ever done!
18:04:32 <sp3tt> How did you do that?
18:04:40 <kipple> put all code into the main recipe
18:04:56 <kipple> and fired all the sous chefs
18:05:11 <sp3tt> They deserved that!
18:06:50 <Keymaker2> i should take a better look at chef
18:06:55 <Keymaker2> seems like an interesting language
18:07:07 <kipple> anyway, your version doesn't work in the perl interpreter
18:07:19 <kipple> Keymaker: it's actually a bit like Kipple :)
18:08:36 <kipple> though a tad more verbose...
18:10:08 <sp3tt> 't work in the perl interpreter...
18:10:11 <sp3tt> Hmm, it can't find the loop.
18:10:42 <kipple> strange. but the perl interpreter is buggy
18:10:52 <sp3tt> Ah... it is case-sensitive.
18:11:03 <sp3tt> Change Drinked to drinked.
18:12:03 <kipple> runs in 20 secs (same as mine)
18:12:36 <sp3tt> Runs almost instantly on my machine, but then again it is a 3.8GHz >_>
18:12:55 <kipple> but it says "1 bottles" in the 98th verse :P
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18:45:12 <jix> http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/applications/0,39020384,39200357,00.htm ??
18:46:11 <jix> i'm going to write a language that tries to use as many m$ patents as possible
18:46:58 <jix> it's objects are stored as xml... a program is an object.. i make havy use of the isNot operator.. (.. searching for m$ patents)
18:53:29 <sp3tt> lol... Tried to run the fibonacci program from chef's website.
18:53:29 <sp3tt> Maximum recursion depth exceeded XD
19:06:52 <kipple> sp3tt: I've finally updated by beer.chef with proper ingredient names. here it is: http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/code/beer.chef
19:08:13 <kipple> btw, have you submitted your to the 99 bottles of beer page?
19:16:52 <fizzie> "1 level tablespoon extract" is a 'proper ingredient'? Is that just generic "extract", or is it one "level" of the elusive tablespoon extract?
19:18:05 <kipple> 1 is the value. level tablespoon is the type declaration (int) and extract is variable name
19:18:34 <fizzie> I know (I've looked at the spec), but I don't think "extract" is a sensible food ingredient.
19:18:43 <fizzie> "Any unspecified extract will do."
19:18:52 <kipple> well, it's not, but it looks good in the recipe
19:19:22 <kipple> I can have statements like "Stir the extract until boiled."
19:20:10 <kipple> I didn't expect anyone to actually try to make beer with this recipe, you know :)
19:26:45 <sp3tt> What about an esoteric language based on brainfuck, but inputs are md5:ed? That would be so evil XD
19:27:23 <sp3tt> Two hexadecimal digits for every brainfuck operation.
19:29:36 <sp3tt> So to actually write a program, you'd have to brute-force an md5-hash.
19:36:19 <jix> 0 g ale yeast ^^
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20:29:33 <graue> here is a rough draft of a spec for my new, as yet unnamed esolang: http://illegal.coffeestops.net:3703/sort.txt
20:29:47 <graue> it is presently unnamed, and likely contains many flaws
20:30:28 <graue> i am going to the bank; i challenge any interested persons to resolve ambiguities and contradictions in the document (if any exist) and implement an interpreter or compiler before i return
20:41:01 <fizzie> Well, there's an obvious bug: "If the string is non-empty, [sensible action]. If an expression evaluates to a non-empty string, it is deleted and removed from the list."
20:45:52 <fizzie> Also the operator table lists ~ as concatenation, ? as regular-expression-matching, but the description below reads "The regular expression matcher, ~, --"
21:57:32 <kipple> graue: interesting concept :)
22:01:33 <fizzie> No interpreters, sorry.
22:02:28 <graue> i just got US$10,000 and i was going to wire it to anyone who wrote an interpreter before i got back
22:05:56 <kipple> quoted from 99-bottles-of-beer.net: "What the fuck is going on here? In fact we got two Chef submissons within a couple of hours. As soon as I have some time on my hands, I will add support for showing several examples for each language cuz I don't want to be the one who decides which is the better one etc. For now I activated the first submission." :D
22:18:57 <pgimeno> graue: oh, I wrote the interpreter before you came but I was afk when you arrived :)
22:19:28 <pgimeno> hehe, no but it would have been nice to get these 10,000 ;)
22:26:32 <jix> kipple: i made a kipple syntax coloring mode for SubEthaEdit
22:26:58 <kipple> never heard about it. but cool :)
22:27:28 <jix> it's osx only.. but i'm using it and i like syntax coloring
22:27:35 <kipple> as always, I'm happy to put Kipple related files on the web site
22:27:50 <jix> www.harderweb.de/jix/langs/seemodes/Kipple.mode.zip
22:30:01 <jix> my dns server is down again...
22:35:30 <kipple> hmm. weird idea: how about a language based on IKEA assembly manuals?
22:36:05 <kipple> (for those not familiar with IKEA manuals: they do not contain a single written word. only symbols!)
22:37:27 <jix> and a program must have a name of a swedish word ^^
22:38:58 <kipple> ha!. as a norwegian that would not be espacially esoteric for me, though :)
22:39:12 <kipple> hmm. espacially. is that a new word?
22:39:34 <jix> no idea, but it doesn't sound swedish ^^
22:40:03 <kipple> no. that would be srskilt
22:40:22 <fizzie> We see enough swedish words here in finland too for them to be non-esoteric. Picture-based languages are less common. Would you have to draw the picutres yourself for the interpreter to interpret?
22:41:03 <jix> just the NAME of the program has to be a swedish word...
22:41:27 <kipple> ok. so the interpreter has to include a swedish dictionary. interesting :)
22:41:54 <malaprop> kipple: And a Swedish stemmer, eh?
22:42:12 <jix> markow chain test.. not 100% perfect but.. it ensures that the word sounds swedish
22:42:42 <fizzie> Stemmers remove the inflection from words.
22:43:12 <fizzie> Wahh, I want a working stemmer for Finnish, the snowball one isn't very good at all.
22:43:20 <malaprop> kipple: Does conjucations -- for English, would take "hat" and spit out "hats", take "complete" and spit out "completeness", "completion", etc.
22:43:22 <kipple> inflection is also not in my english vocabulary. sorry
22:46:08 <kipple> In norwegian we use the norwegian word for bending :) I.e. bending a verb
22:46:27 <fizzie> The snowball stemmer thinks 'innostua', 'innostuessaan', 'innostuimme', 'innostuisivat', 'innostuksissaan', 'innostuneena', 'innostunut' are all different words (they're not).
22:46:41 <fizzie> Heh, it's "taivuttaa" (to bend) in finnish too.
22:47:10 <kipple> well, finnish grammar was never meant to be easy, now was it?
22:47:44 <kipple> I assume electronic spell checkers have even more trouble with finnish than with norwegian
22:48:43 <jix> finish ingredients declarations are very long compared to the other ones
22:49:22 <kipple> heh. I know only one finnish sentence: "Ei saa peittaa"
22:49:45 <kipple> written on almost every electical oven in Norway :)
22:50:06 <fizzie> At least it should be. I haven't examined the ovens in Norway. (Only been there once.)
22:50:28 <jix> ümläütß rulz
22:50:58 <kipple> those characters didn't come throgh to me.. what were they?
22:51:20 <pgimeno> hm, UTF8 ought to be standard in this network
22:51:42 <jix> /charset utf-8 on xchat
22:51:46 <kipple> I got fizzie's umlauts though
22:52:10 <pgimeno> jix: I didn't know it was changeable on-the-fly. Thanks dude!
22:52:21 <fizzie> Mine were probably latin-1 (or 15), since that (sadly) seems to be the de-facto irc standard.
22:52:27 <jix> hehe i didn't know it for a long time
22:52:35 <fizzie> Er, latin-9. ISO-8859-15. Not latin-15.
22:52:46 <jix> fizzie: but not on freenode
22:52:46 <kipple> so, do you guys get these?
22:52:51 <jix> kipple: yes
22:52:53 <GregorR> jix: http://www.befunge.org/fyb/fyb/exa/logicex-2.fyb
22:53:03 <jix> AHHH GregorR strikes back
22:53:21 <fizzie> Hm... does freenode have an official policy on this?
22:54:18 <kipple> my client (Trillian) doesn't seem to have any charset settings :(
22:54:45 <jix> GregorR: arghh.. now i can't sleep this night until i write a better program
22:54:48 <pgimeno> windows still has some trouble with utf-8 support
22:56:30 <jix> gnight anyway ...
22:57:04 <jix> GregorR: i start writing the "hill" tomorrow.. i still need a name
22:57:30 <GregorR> If you expect me to be good at naming ... hah, it is to laugh ;)
22:58:37 <jix> Produktionsstätten ?
22:59:22 <jix> just a random word of a german newspaper article
22:59:41 <jix> but it really doesn't fit
23:00:50 <jix> nah...night
23:00:53 -!- jix has quit ("Banned from network").
23:14:48 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:15:13 -!- CXI has joined.
23:19:28 <GregorR> Updated the FYB scoreboard with all of jix's stuff, and retired a few old ones of my own: http://www.befunge.org/fyb/fyb/exa/report
23:28:12 <graue> i don't understand how 'nothing' can beat any of the other ones
23:36:48 <GregorR> Very stupid programs (read: mangler) can end up modifying their own program very easily if they're not careful. While nothing is doing, well, nothing, mangler is mangling it until it creates a defect, defects itself, then slaughters its own program.
23:37:34 <pgimeno> in other words, commits suicide
23:38:30 <pgimeno> very much like the guy attacking 127.0.0.1
23:38:31 <GregorR> I just created nothing to show why mangler = bad :)
23:50:15 <graue> how's that conditional jump in malbolge going, pgimeno?
23:50:34 <pgimeno> graue: absolutely paralized
23:51:48 <pgimeno> the problem is that my web is before that and it's going very slowly
23:52:16 <graue> that is unfortunate
23:54:52 <pgimeno> well, including a malbolge section implied including my esolangs article, which implied updating it, which implied updating the others; at the same time some guy sent me new contents for the Mahjongg solver, and it's gone almost out of control