←2020-04 2020-05 2020-06→ ↑2020 ↑all
2020-05-01
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00:31:22 <Train> zzo38?
00:37:30 <esowiki> [[Cortex language 3A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71536&oldid=71533 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+286) Wip
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00:38:02 <esowiki> [[Cortex language 3A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71537&oldid=71536 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-13)
00:38:36 <esowiki> [[Cortex language 3A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71538&oldid=71537 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* Syntax */
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00:48:32 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71539&oldid=71531 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+126) Test, not spam
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01:28:58 <orbitaldecay> Does anyone know of a BF variant that executes the program in an implicit loop and only has if-blocks in the language?
01:30:05 <orbitaldecay> I think that would be TC too
01:31:57 <orbitaldecay> L00P is close
01:33:31 <b_jonas> orbitaldecay: it's hard to tell, as there are so many bf variants out there and it's hard to search their docs
01:33:44 <int-e> As long as you ensure that the implicit loop is executed at least once... (an implicit while loop on an empty tape of 0s is a bit useless)...
01:33:46 <b_jonas> that looks like a variant that you can reasonably consider
01:34:46 <int-e> A large part of Brainfuck programming is getting out of loops :P
01:35:27 <orbitaldecay> cool cool
01:35:32 <int-e> Of course that's offset by having just one loop... so I'll not make any claims about which flavor is easier to use :P
01:37:03 <Cale> orbitaldecay: The printable subset of x86 assembly
01:37:10 <int-e> But I have no doubt that this is TC. With unbounded cells you should get a nice Minsky machine implementation; with bounded cells a more cumbersome Turing machine.
01:37:24 <Cale> x86 machine code rather
01:37:41 <Cale> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA_DrBwkiJA&feature=youtu.be
01:37:42 <orbitaldecay> Cale: hahaha, in an implicit loop that would be great
01:38:16 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Spssyy * New user account
01:38:26 <int-e> Cale: yeah that one is quite awkward unless you allow run-time patching of the code to arbitrary values.
01:38:41 <Cale> There is an implicit loop if you're in the right mode
01:39:06 <orbitaldecay> Yeah, I remember playing around with printable machine code in the context of writing shell code to sneak into text fields that are validated
01:39:16 <orbitaldecay> In another life...
01:39:56 <shachaf> "if" should be called "affine while".
01:40:14 <b_jonas> orbitaldecay: ah yes, those php thingies that "validate" input by grepping for SQL keywords and for a less than sign followed by a letter, and then using them as unfiltered SQL or HTML if they don't contain them
01:40:18 <b_jonas> gotto love those
01:40:26 <shachaf> C has all four: do/while (relevant), if (affine), while, and a plain block.
01:40:26 <orbitaldecay> haha indeed
01:40:29 <int-e> iffing whale
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01:40:56 <orbitaldecay> good night all
01:42:40 <b_jonas> orbitaldecay: for printable x86 code, see https://esolangs.org/wiki/ABC_(compiler)
01:43:03 <Cale> orbitaldecay: That video I linked is where tom7 describes a C compiler he wrote which produces this weird printable assembly, and he makes use of the fact that if your address is in the top 16bit region and you issue the right kind of jump instruction, the instruction pointer gets ANDed with 0xffff automatically
01:43:13 <Cale> and that's how he does loops
01:43:17 <Cale> all the loops
01:43:22 <Cale> have to be that one
01:43:57 <Cale> er, printable machine code, I keep saying assembly :)
01:44:01 <b_jonas> Cale: right, the compiler is the one I just linked to
01:44:06 <Cale> yep
01:44:19 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71540&oldid=71470 * Spssyy * (+199) /* Introductions */
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01:50:23 <esowiki> [[User:Spssyy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71541 * Spssyy * (+439) Created page with "I am spssyy. I will frequently update this list below when I publish a new Esolang. I had written the documentation for Superset (formerly Brainfuck 3.0, now docs were deleted..."
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02:25:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71542&oldid=71524 * Salpynx * (+2880) PF using a RBF self-interpreter (hypothetical)
02:37:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71543&oldid=71542 * Salpynx * (+272) /* PF attempt, using a hypothetical RBF self-interpreter */ fix encoding convention
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03:07:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71544&oldid=71543 * Ais523 * (+768) /* Notes on conjecture */ my thoughts on this
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03:17:41 <imode> I wonder what Forth would be like if Chuck Moore didn't favor a stack as the method of manipulating data, and instead used something like registers.
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03:18:12 <imode> or just straight up memory. it'd probably require a little more parsing.
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03:25:24 <imode> as you'd have an actual format/"grammar", there. it'd probably just be assembly language with fancier blocks.
03:28:55 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_triggered_architecture neat article.
03:30:35 <zzo38> Transport triggered architecture is something I have also once thought of before I know what it is called, and I once tried to design the electronics schematic for a computer that is based on transport triggered architecture
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03:55:55 <esowiki> [[Alan Turing]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71545 * IFcoltransG * (+870) Created page with "{{stub}} '''Alan Mathison Turing''' was a mathematician, philosopher, cryptographer, and pioneering computer scientist. "Turing" is surely the most common name mentioned on th..."
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03:59:26 <esowiki> [[Lambda calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71546&oldid=66658 * IFcoltransG * (+1262) Rewrote the start to be a better introduction
04:00:18 <zzo38> Even though Adobe does not want to invent level 4 PostScript, I think that level 4 PostScript should be invented, including such thing as transparency, automatic allocation of strings and arrays for some operators if you pass null instead of a preallocated string or array, commands to access font metrics, and some of the features of Ghostscript (such as makeimagedevice and %pipe%), and allowing dictionaries in binary object format.
04:01:20 <esowiki> [[Lambda calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71547&oldid=71546 * IFcoltransG * (+42) Added a heading to break up wall of text
04:02:15 <esowiki> [[Lambda calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71548&oldid=71547 * IFcoltransG * (+18) Added another heading because the text was still to much like a wall
04:05:04 <zzo38> And also a JBIG2 decoding filter.
04:17:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71549&oldid=71544 * Salpynx * (+1229) /* PF attempt, using a hypothetical RBF self-interpreter */ details of the hypothetical command
04:22:37 <esowiki> [[Lambda calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71550&oldid=71548 * IFcoltransG * (+1093) /* Introduction */ Broke down some of the more complex notation for beginners
04:27:09 <imode> transport triggered architecture seems to be "imperative dataflow programming".
04:31:56 <esowiki> [[Alan Mathison Turing]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71551 * IFcoltransG * (+25) Redirected page to [[Alan Turing]]
04:32:53 <esowiki> [[Turing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71552&oldid=55858 * IFcoltransG * (+53)
04:33:50 <esowiki> [[Turing machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71553&oldid=67049 * IFcoltransG * (+4) Networking, i.e. adding a link
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05:01:59 <Train> What does the bot esowiki do?
05:09:04 <Train> Does it report edits?
05:09:43 <Train> Also zzo38 I found an "amusing" program
05:09:56 <Train> V2+2=4<OUTPUT
05:10:16 <Train> You can probably guess exactly what it does easily.
05:12:51 <zzo38> Hello
05:13:02 <Train> Hello.
05:13:15 <Train> I was reading a codegolf, and that was my program.
05:13:55 <Train> Also, I found an xkcd that I think is relevant for this channel. https://xkcd.com/1782/
05:16:51 <zzo38> I saw that before
05:17:04 <Train> Dang.
05:25:38 <zzo38> I am currently working on TeXnicard, working on the random deck mode.
05:28:58 <zzo38> Do you like to make up Magic: the Gathering cards and puzzles?
05:29:06 <Train> A little.
05:29:27 <Train> I was interested in it at one point, but never really got around to it.
05:29:58 <zzo38> I made up some puzzles of Magic: the Gathering myself too. I also set up a NNTP to discuss such things.
05:30:11 <Train> Nice.
05:35:19 <zzo38> One of them is http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.2 and you can try different numbers at the end for different puzzles.
05:36:12 <Train> And what is the goal?
05:36:20 <Train> Is it just the play MTG?
05:36:26 <zzo38> To win the game, of course.
05:36:36 <Train> Okay.
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05:44:35 <zzo38> I have a question about the rules of Magic: the Gathering, that I wonder if someone on here knows the answer. If during a subgame your opponent concedes the subgame, are you allowed to choose to concede the subgame yourself too at the same time, so that neither player wins the subgame?
05:45:11 <myname> why would anybody want to do that?
05:48:17 <zzo38> In case you are trying to half your life points in the main game, after either you manage to do something in the subgame to take cards out of the main game, in which case your opponent doesn't need to concede, or else your opponent also concedes the subgame which would also half your opponent's points and would be an alternative way to reach the goal, either way requiring your own life points half too.
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06:01:48 <zzo38> Has anyone managed to make a satisfying Babson task in Magic: the Gathering?
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06:23:04 <b_jonas> Train: esowiki reports edits, and it may also be the bot that gets the logs for https://esolangs.org/logs/all.html most of the time
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06:38:06 <probablymoony> been a while since I've spoken in here
06:38:23 <probablymoony> but i've been working on a DEC VAX emulator (as the SIMH one is nigh unreadable and I needed something to do)
06:38:47 <probablymoony> and I finally have it in a state where I can extend it to be a full VAX implementation'
06:39:39 <probablymoony> it seems to take about 25-35ns per instruction right now with the MMU disabled (checks for it exist, but if it was enabled the program would crash as it's unimplemented.)
06:44:41 <probablymoony> also frankly my timing test is very crude :P
06:45:07 <zzo38> Did you implement the extensions? http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ian/Computer_architectures#Some_ideas_of_mine
06:45:30 <probablymoony> https://github.com/moonheart08/emutk/tree/master/emutk-vax if any reader is interested. Code's spaghetti but it works. Hmmm?
06:45:33 * probablymoony looks
06:46:11 <probablymoony> zzo38: also it's very early in-dev
06:46:18 <probablymoony> not all instrs are implemented (only a small subset)
06:46:21 <probablymoony> :P
06:46:48 <probablymoony> > code to be run from the registers
06:46:49 <lambdabot> error:
06:46:49 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope:
06:46:49 <lambdabot> code
06:47:03 <probablymoony> that'd require me to upturn my entire execution model, I think i'm good :P
06:47:21 <probablymoony> > PC shenanigins
06:47:22 <zzo38> O, well, maybe once all of the instructions is implemented, then you can also add a option to make these extensions (or at least some of them), maybe
06:47:23 <lambdabot> error:
06:47:23 <lambdabot> Data constructor not in scope: PC :: t0 -> terror: Variable not in scope...
06:47:36 <probablymoony> I won't stop you. (you can already muck with PC, the emulator won't crash on you)
06:47:52 <probablymoony> it's only UB, not impossible
06:47:58 <probablymoony> and it was easier for me to allow it
06:48:46 <probablymoony> I was going to hold off on implementing instrs that need software float for a godo bit. We'll see.
06:48:53 <zzo38> Would you implement the microcodes?
06:48:58 <probablymoony> Likely not.
06:49:10 <probablymoony> goal is just the ISA, really
06:49:37 <probablymoony> once again, microcode would require a bunch of execution model redesigns and it'd be much much slower
06:50:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: re your question about subgames, I don't know the answer, but I decided that I gave up trying to understand the rules of subgames ever since they've been banned from Vintage
06:50:53 <probablymoony> zzo38: also thanks for that page
06:50:56 <b_jonas> I mean banned from all supported non-un formats
06:50:59 <probablymoony> i'll be giving it a good read
06:51:09 <b_jonas> but that's mostly the same
06:54:11 <probablymoony> zzo38: extra thanks, it immediately made me aware of an unemulated edge-case (incrementing immediates actually works)
06:54:22 <probablymoony> (or writing in general)
06:57:01 <zzo38> Writing immediates is something that some of my own designs supported even before I knew about VAX, just because, to me it is make sense, if it is orthogonal. However, on 6502 the instructions to write immediates don't work, and instead will result in reading immediate (and ignoring the value), it would seem to me.
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06:58:30 <zzo38> (If it did work, it might be a good way to do bank switching in Famicom, when using a suitable mapper.)
06:59:36 <probablymoony> hmm
06:59:38 <probablymoony> actually
06:59:58 <probablymoony> I was considering rearranging my bus model so the bus is the "master" for everything, and the VAX CPU is just a device on it..
07:00:03 <probablymoony> that may allow the addressable register thing
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07:00:50 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, it is banned in Vintage, but not in "pseudo-Vintage"
07:01:53 <Train> zzo38, should I upload the interpreter to sprunge?
07:01:57 <probablymoony> really if I did that model rearranging the addressable registers would come naturally anyways
07:02:07 <probablymoony> but
07:02:35 <probablymoony> that'd be in violation of DEC's design manuals for obvious reasons (if i modified MOVAx)
07:03:17 <probablymoony> could make it a cfg flag
07:03:20 <probablymoony> just for fun
07:03:28 <zzo38> Train: Yes, probably. (I should also think to put the documentation in esolang wiki)
07:03:48 <zzo38> probablymoony: Making it a configuration option is what I suggested
07:03:49 <Train> Okay.
07:04:22 * probablymoony reads up
07:04:24 <probablymoony> oh, yes, you did
07:05:08 <probablymoony> zzo38: also am I the only one who finds the SIMH implementation of the VAX unreadable? I haven't cross-referenced with it at all because I just can't read it's SRC :T
07:05:41 <zzo38> I don't know; I didn't look at the SIMH.
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07:08:05 <probablymoony> oh, if I were to make MOVAx work for registers i'd probably want to make rn[rx] work too
07:08:09 <esowiki> [[PixelCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71554&oldid=59166 * Voltage2007 * (-579) this thing is a mess - Im fixing the rest of this tomorrow
07:08:42 <shachaf> mov ax already works for registers hth
07:08:54 <shachaf> mov r, r/m
07:08:57 <probablymoony> shachaf: i'm talking VAX :P
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07:24:51 <zzo38> They mention a variadic instruction mode. Z-machine has that; the EQUAL? instruction takes a variable number of operands. It succeeds if the first operand is equal to any one of the others.
07:27:57 <probablymoony> zzo38: why one doesn't copy-paste: You may accidentially "fix" immediate mode to act like absolute mode
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07:28:31 <Train> What did you think of the program I sent you earlier, zzo38?
07:29:06 <probablymoony> maybe I should just un-specialize immediate/absolute mode.
07:30:56 <probablymoony> de-specialized, and even got a performance improvement with it :D
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07:35:53 <b_jonas> Today I learned something about the x86_64 intrinsics in clang and rust using llvm. there's no way to write x86_64-specific code to do a floating point addition (whether scalar or vector) with the SSE/AVX instructions and with the x86_64 rules in such a way that the optimizer can't swap the two input arguments of the addition even if it can't prove that that changes nothing, and get full optimization
07:35:59 <b_jonas> from the compiler. there's just no interface in llvm from this, regardless of what function and optimization flags you use.
07:36:19 <Train> Well, TIL.
07:37:16 <b_jonas> llvm is just allowed to swap the argument of the x86_64 intrinsics, and it doesn't matter whether you use the intel intrinsics, the rust interface for the same, or the gcc-style vector operators and builtins, and regardless of what optimization flags you use
07:38:02 <b_jonas> I didn't ask about gcc, but gcc probably also doesn't have an interface for this, because the semantics for these sorts of things tend to have the same rules as in clang
07:39:41 <b_jonas> so if I want to do floating point addition with a deterministic SSE-style output when both arguments are NaN, either I have to add some extra computation, though in practice in most cases you can do that very efficiently, or write inline assembly or similar, in which case you lose on compiler optimizations.
07:39:59 <b_jonas> this is good to know, I didn't know how the semantics of those intrinsics worked.
07:46:33 <b_jonas> [ 2!21
07:46:33 <j-bot> b_jonas: 210
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08:45:46 <rain1> orbitaldecay: I thought I had something but as i try to work out the details it is falling apart
08:46:09 <rain1> I thought we could try to make a simple translation by considering a mapping like this
08:46:12 <rain1> *** -> [][][][]
08:46:15 <rain1> * -> [][]
08:46:17 <rain1> ** -> [][][]
08:46:42 <rain1> [] is a no-op, expect it sets flags (this would use scratch space on the tape so the tapes wouldn't be isomorphic)
08:47:15 <rain1> (*) maps to [[][]] and (*()(**)) maps to [[][][[]][[][][]]]
08:48:10 <rain1> to implement it, [ and ] would manipulate some flags on the tape and there would also be a stack of bits i think, which we can access by storing our the stack height and current tape location as unary (to be able to get back to place after working on the stack)
08:51:40 <rain1> e e e e e e
08:51:40 <rain1> [[][][[]][[][][]]]
08:52:02 <rain1> so basically we are analyzing the code as we execute it, empties are discovered and conditioned on to implement * from just []
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09:28:09 <myname> setting flags is not that easy. you need to manuever to the place where the flag is and back
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09:32:48 <rain1> i overlooked that, thank you
09:33:19 <rain1> maybe we need to translate to RBF with < and >
09:35:53 <cpressey> In an FPN (applicative) setting, "+12" is well-formed, as are "+1" and "+", but "12" is not. In an RPN (concatenative) setting, "12+" is well-formed, and so are "12" and "2+" and "+". BUT, "2+" and "+" are arguably not meaningful.
09:38:08 <cpressey> There does seem to be an easy way to make a concatenative version of the SKI calculus, but it's also very cheap and unexciting. S: push S combinator on the stack. K: push K combinator on the stack. A: apply topmost combinator on the stack.
09:40:43 <cpressey> That's the Concatentive Consternation for this morning, we now return you to your regular programming.
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11:27:16 <arseniiv> @tell cpressey <cpressey> BUT, "2+" and "+" are arguably not meaningful. => why not? "2+" adds 2 to the topmost stack element. If we have quotes, "[2+]" may be used somewhere a quote that changes the topmost elem is needed, e. g. in a looping contruct
11:27:16 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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11:37:34 <ais523> b_jonas: (non-volatile) inline asm looks like the perfect tool for this, AFAICT it suppresses exactly the compiler optimisations you want to suppress and no others
11:39:22 <ais523> it appears that the optimizer's assumptions for a non-volatile asm are that the same inputs always produce the same outputs and there are no side effects
11:40:04 <ais523> those are true for a non-associative floating point add, and I can't immediately think of any other properties it has
11:40:33 <ais523> of course, this is inherently system-specific, but arguably so is non-associative addition in the first plcae
11:42:11 <ais523> zzo38: I believe that the definition of a Babson task in M:tG should be a position where the opponent wishes for a card, and to win you have to wish for the same card
11:42:32 <ais523> the difficulty of this would presumably depend on the content of the sideboards, but assuming 15 different cards, it seems very difficult unless you can compare the card names somehow
11:42:39 <ais523> regardless of what the cards are
11:42:48 <ais523> (as long as they're all wishable by the opponent)
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11:55:39 <ais523> orbitaldecay: the definition of "simple translation" strikes me as really important from the esoprogramming point of view, even outside any RBF-related contexts
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12:16:11 <ais523> in particular: suppose we generalize the concept of "simple translation" slightly to allow the translation to put additional fixed strings at the start and end of the program, in addition to its other operations
12:16:54 <ais523> with this generalization, is it possible to find a simple translation between any two TC languages? I suspect the answer is "no, but there's a large subset consisting of most practical TC languages that can do it"
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12:17:59 <ais523> in which case we've managed to identify a subset of TC languages which are in a sense more powerful than the others
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12:21:14 <ais523> I think it's also interesting to think about 2-command simple translations of other languages
12:21:36 <ais523> in Underload, for example, it's fun to try to find a simple translation that handles the ( and ) pseudo-commands
12:25:55 <ais523> conjecture: there is no simple translation between brainfuck and Fractran
12:26:16 <ais523> * no generalized simple translation
12:26:37 <ais523> (you can do Fractran → BF, but it seems unlikely that you can do it the other way round)
12:36:22 <ais523> I think the major requirement for permitting a generalized simple translation is having some sort of fairly traditional string literal
12:36:48 <ais523> e.g. you can do it in The Waterfall Model because you can have a large numeric literal that you parse the digits from (other than the last significant) at runtime
12:37:17 <ais523> and you can do it in BF because you can use >+>+++>++ etc. as a string literal equivalent
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12:38:36 <ais523> so a "made out of commands" string literal equivalent is enough
12:38:57 <ais523> oh, trivially simple example that can't do it: Incident
12:39:18 <ais523> it has no way to distinguish between the same section of source code repeated five times, or repeated six times
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13:10:31 <esowiki> [[Turing machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71555&oldid=71553 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) remove red link
13:15:00 <esowiki> [[Disan count]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71556 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) Redirected page to [[Disan Count]]
13:17:40 <esowiki> [[Popular problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71557&oldid=62413 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1)
13:26:04 <esowiki> [[Cortex language 3A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71558&oldid=71538 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+265)
13:26:31 <esowiki> [[Cortex language 3A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71559&oldid=71558 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-24)
13:38:22 <b_jonas> ais523: inline asm has the correct semantics for this. however, for inline asm, the compiler won't parse the assembly statement, so it won't know what instruction is inside it, and so can't use timing information to optimize an inner loop with such an asm correctly. inline asm works if you write the whole critical section in one big asm, or if you are using this outside of a critical section where
13:38:28 <b_jonas> optimization isn't so important, but it won't replace intrinsics if I want to rely on the compiler to produce decent code.
13:39:51 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, this is system-specific, in that there are three or four different rules for handling two NaN inputs in instructions. which is why I said I'm asking for this specifically to get the result that SSE/AVX instructions give, when generating code for x86_64 only.
13:40:13 <b_jonas> you could ask the analogous question for ARM, but I'm much less familiar with ARM, so I didn't try to ask about that.
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13:45:39 <b_jonas> ais523: wish for the same card? it would be too much of cheating if you have a Homing Lightning and mana for it, and the opponent has an Asceticism ton of Clones and mana for them, right?
13:49:43 <esowiki> [[Muriel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71560&oldid=58467 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* String */
13:50:11 <b_jonas> there's probably a similar cheating solution that compares creature types, not names; and there are probably solutions that are slightly less cheating that compare a combination of colors, power/toughness, land types, it's just that it's hard to get a series of 15 cards by comparing just one of those, so you need more tricks.
13:50:40 <b_jonas> s"power/toughness"power/toughness, converted mana cost"
13:51:32 <b_jonas> you could probably use converted mana cost only, using a card like Counterbalance
14:06:55 <orbitaldecay> rain1: Sounds like you're having ideas!
14:08:01 <orbitaldecay> ais523: Yeah, simple translation seems to capture something significant. I really like your idea of "generalized simple translation" allowing arbitrary strings at the beginning and end of the program.
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14:10:14 <orbitaldecay> I think the definition of "isomorphism between models" needs some work. I'm not quite sure that captures exactly what I'm going for. I was discussing yesterday that between two unbounded tape models you could map 2n to n and use the odd cells to store context, which is kind of outside of the spirit of a simple translation
14:11:02 <orbitaldecay> Maybe simple translation should have it's own page for discussing further?
14:11:35 <rain1> it's a tricky one
14:12:07 <rain1> if you allow a prefix then you can do interpreters of string data
14:12:41 <rain1> this was already said though
14:14:58 <orbitaldecay> Hmm, on second thought, would 2n to n work? how do you map backward? n -> n/2 isn't a valid mapping
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14:32:25 <ais523> orbitaldecay: I think there's multiple possible senses of the mapping
14:32:33 <ais523> there are senses in which you look only at halting behaviour
14:32:42 <ais523> and senses in which you look at some of the internal state too
14:32:51 <ais523> the later is hard to define rigorously, though, and leads to some odd results
14:33:18 <orbitaldecay> ais523: yes, I was thinking of redefining solely in terms of halting behavior
14:34:06 <ais523> e.g. think of a Salpynx-style simple translation that works via one command providing input to a second command that's an interpreter
14:34:22 <orbitaldecay> as, I think maybe, if the translated program halts iff the original program halts then the machine states must be isomorphic
14:34:40 <ais523> this can't lead to an internal state mapping in PF to/from RBF because RBF is reversible
14:36:03 <orbitaldecay> hmm, I have to think about that
14:36:18 <ais523> so, e.g., a no-op containing a loop that executes will lead to some permanent memory that that loop existed on the PF tape
14:36:54 <ais523> but I can't see a reason why that would apply to irreversible languages
14:37:34 <ais523> a separate thing I noticed is that PF (if it exists) does not necessarily have to be reversible
14:38:12 <ais523> the RBF translation of the PF might, when reversed, use command sequences that don't exist in PF; and the PF translation of the RBF might use sequences of commands that happen to be reversible even if the individual commands aren't
14:38:53 <orbitaldecay> ais523: but if there is an RBF translation of PF, and a PF translation of RBF, then there must be PF representations of inverses of PF operators.
14:39:43 <ais523> orbitaldecay: but if you map RBF to PF and back to RBF, the resulting tape may not be the same
14:40:04 <orbitaldecay> ooo you're right. that's tricky
14:40:11 <orbitaldecay> are we sure about that?
14:40:12 <ais523> this seems to be connected to eigenratios in a way, you'd expect an RBF→PF→RBF translation to expand the tape by some proportion
14:40:49 <orbitaldecay> what are eigenratios?
14:40:50 <ais523> it strikes me that part of the problem is that BF derivatives normally have no way to store temporary data without disturbing the existing tape
14:41:04 <ais523> an eigenratio is the speed at which a self-interpreter runs, compared to running the program natively
14:41:17 <orbitaldecay> ah, I see
14:42:02 <orbitaldecay> I'm currently creating a page for simple translations to discuss some of these idea further and flesh out generalizations
14:42:25 <ais523> I was considering creating a page about simple translations too, but it's your idea so you're probably a better person to do it
14:42:31 <orbitaldecay> I'm thinking of defining it so that A halts iff B halts
14:42:37 <orbitaldecay> we should collab on it
14:42:42 <orbitaldecay> in the spirit of wiki
14:42:44 <ais523> I would consider multiple possible definitions (without fixing a specific definition) because different cases could be interesting
14:43:35 <esowiki> [[Cortex language 3A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71561&oldid=71559 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+372) /* Commands */
14:43:52 <orbitaldecay> Yeah, I agree that different cases should be explored
14:43:58 <esowiki> [[Cortex language 3A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71562&oldid=71561 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22) /* Commands */
14:44:16 <orbitaldecay> But as a start I really like the idea of avoiding getting into isomorphisms between machine states altogether
14:44:49 <orbitaldecay> Hmm, but dont we need some way to define analogous input?
14:48:53 <ais523> I find that I/O often complicates computational class discussions (I/O isn't needed at all to be TC, after all)
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14:49:27 <ais523> it'd be easy enough to come up with a noninteractive-I/O-dependent version of a simple translation, though ("the program halts, and the same input produces the same output")
14:49:39 <ais523> and the interactive I/O version is also obvious, just a little harder to define
14:52:03 <orbitaldecay> Yeah, I think I'm going to keep I/O out of the conversation for now completely
14:52:10 <orbitaldecay> as it just mucks up the ideas
14:52:15 <orbitaldecay> for no particularly good reason
14:55:51 <esowiki> [[Cortex language 3A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71563&oldid=71562 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40)
14:58:18 <esowiki> [[Simple Translation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71564 * Orby * (+1974) Getting started
14:58:42 <orbitaldecay> ais523: wrote an initial definition, feel free to modify and expand
14:58:46 <orbitaldecay> going out for a smoke, brb
14:59:27 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ais523 * moved [[Simple Translation]] to [[Simple translation]]: caps
14:59:50 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71567&oldid=71565 * Ais523 * (+23) cat
15:00:37 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71568&oldid=71567 * Orby * (+17)
15:03:11 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71569&oldid=71568 * Ais523 * (+177) clarify introduction
15:03:47 <ais523> huh, interesting MediaWiki bug there: "show changes" showed your changes as well as mine, despite the lack of edit conflict
15:04:06 <esowiki> [[Reversible Bitfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71570&oldid=71520 * Orby * (-1658)
15:04:35 <ais523> I wonder if we want the internal state mapping function at all
15:04:48 <ais523> I have the feeling that definitions with and without it are both interesting
15:04:52 <esowiki> [[Nanofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71571&oldid=71523 * Orby * (+6)
15:05:26 <esowiki> [[Picofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71572&oldid=71521 * Orby * (+6)
15:05:59 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71573&oldid=71535 * Orby * (-38)
15:06:07 <esowiki> [[Nanofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71574&oldid=71571 * Ais523 * (-38) remove redundant piping of links
15:06:35 <orbitaldecay> Well, I think we nee the internal state mapping to initialize the machines to the same state
15:07:27 <orbitaldecay> The state being the same on completion is less important I think
15:07:55 <ais523> well, thinking about languages
15:08:04 <ais523> I'm thinking of a simple translation as a mapping of the source code
15:08:10 <ais523> in which case it happens before parsing
15:08:19 <ais523> the current implementation seems to inherently assume that the language is concatenative, doesn't it?
15:08:20 <orbitaldecay> Feel free to generalize on the page
15:08:31 <orbitaldecay> a generalized simple translation could be really useful too
15:08:35 <ais523> (also, somehow I never realised until /just now/ that brainfuck is concatenative)
15:08:56 <orbitaldecay> I originally thought of all this in the context of minimization, but it sounds like you have a bigger vision for it
15:09:12 <esowiki> [[Cortex language 3]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71575&oldid=71527 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-92)
15:09:45 <ais523> OK, so https://esolangs.org/wiki/Pure_BF is a joke
15:09:54 <ais523> but it does seem to be the view of BF-alikes that simple translation is taking
15:10:08 <esowiki> [[Cortex language 3A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71576&oldid=71563 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+92) /* Commands */
15:10:47 <esowiki> [[Cortex language 3]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71577&oldid=71575 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40)
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15:11:25 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71578&oldid=71430 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) /* Cortex language 3 */
15:13:53 <ais523> I guess the issue is that we normally see languages in almost any paradigm as a list of commands, that operate on state, and produce a state as output
15:14:38 <ais523> there are some exceptions, like control flow, and those not coincidentally cause the largest issues when writing simple translations
15:16:36 <orbitaldecay> yeah, mapping the IP to a functional language sounds weird
15:17:01 <orbitaldecay> idea: input and output buffers can be considered part of the state. No special consideration for I/O needed.
15:18:55 <ais523> one application for simple translations is in explaining the difference between the :*()a^ and ~:!()^ subsets of Underload
15:19:13 <ais523> the former subset appears to be a simple translation of Underload; the latter isn't "obviously" a simple translation
15:19:58 <orbitaldecay> I need to read up on underload
15:20:21 <ais523> you should, especially if you're interested in minimization
15:21:50 <arseniiv> int-e (or someone skilled in lambdabot’s workings): I tried to abuse lambdabot again, running this obfuscated code:
15:21:50 <arseniiv> @let data O z=O(z(O z)) -- this is a fixpoint of a functor like in Data.Fix
15:21:50 <arseniiv> > let{e m(O c)=m$fmap(e m)c;a g s=j g:a s(O[g,s]);j=e(fmap(+)(foldr(const.const$0)1)<*>sum)}in a(O[])$O[O[]]
15:21:50 <arseniiv> on my GHCi, it starts spewing out the first elements of the list pretty fast but here the computation just times out. I think I did something wrong, what could that be?
15:21:51 <lambdabot> .L.hs:174:1: error:
15:21:51 <lambdabot> Multiple declarations of ‘O’
15:21:51 <lambdabot> Declared at: .L.hs:172:1
15:21:56 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
15:22:05 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71579&oldid=71513 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+96) /* Languages */
15:22:17 <ais523> actually for me, one of the most important unanswered questions wrt simple translations at the moment is whether there's some simple, objective way to exclude Salpynx-style translations
15:22:29 <arseniiv> (oh sorry I defined it earlier but that definition hadn’t changed)
15:23:04 <ais523> because those may permit simple translations into anything TC that obeys certain syntactic restrictions
15:24:21 <ais523> or, hmm
15:24:23 <orbitaldecay> okay, run this salpynx-style translation by me again
15:24:57 <ais523> the basic idea is that we have some sort of state that records whether or not we're in the middle of a loop
15:25:05 <ais523> commands run immediately if we aren't
15:25:22 <ais523> if we are, they just add themselves to some data structure, and then ] implements the entire loop
15:25:45 <ais523> the advantage of this is that there's no need for any PF command to translate to an unbalanced loop in RBF
15:26:04 <ais523> * the translation of ) implements the entire loop
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15:27:01 <ais523> so you can create two commands, 1 and 0, where 1 just implements an internal counter, and 0 does all the real work, depending on context either executing a command, or storing that command in a data structure for later use
15:27:14 <ais523> 0 is in effect an RBF self-interpreter
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15:27:24 <ais523> then you just map each RBF command to some string of 1s followed by 0
15:27:56 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71580&oldid=71515 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* C */ + [[Cortex language 3A]]
15:28:05 <orbitaldecay> but how do you express the inverse translation table?
15:28:11 <orbitaldecay> e.g. what is 1 in RBF?
15:28:41 <esowiki> [[Cortex language 3A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71581&oldid=71576 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+460) /* Examples */
15:28:43 <ais523> the inverse translation table is the hard part; 1 basically just has to increment a counter (although you need a complex tape encoding to /have/ a temporary counter in RBF)
15:28:54 <ais523> and 0 is an entire RBF self-interpreter with some additional functionality
15:29:11 <arseniiv> (oh, that translation technique reminds me how I implemented my first incomplete forth-like with quotes: if we are inside a quote, we continue completing it, then we push it on the stack finally—if we aren’t in a quote still; thought there are no more similarities regarding "]", as the evaluation would be a different operation, "!")
15:29:34 <orbitaldecay> is it possible to do that and maintain equivalence under isomorphism?
15:29:36 <ais523> I guess you can think of it as an incremental self-interpreter
15:29:53 <orbitaldecay> of the state?
15:29:59 <ais523> orbitaldecay: no, but only through chance: because RBF is reversible the self-interpreter has no way to delete the program from the tape once it's finished
15:30:14 <ais523> this is specific to the fact that RBF is reversible
15:30:22 <ais523> and the fact that RBF programs with unbalanced () aren't valid
15:30:28 <ais523> or, well
15:30:44 <orbitaldecay> yeah I guess you just erase all the temp stuff when you're done interpretting
15:30:48 <ais523> the point is that you don't need the translation of, say, *>(* to mean anything
15:31:02 <ais523> so the self-interpreter can check to see if we have a complete program with balanced parens
15:31:19 <orbitaldecay> ok, I get the problem
15:31:19 <ais523> if we do, it can evaluate it so far and then delete all the temporary state it used (except that it can't because RBF is reversible)
15:31:30 <orbitaldecay> right right
15:31:37 <ais523> if we don't, then the definition doesn't place constraints on what happens because the input program wasn't valid
15:32:39 <orbitaldecay> What if we require the machine state to be isomorphic after executing each command?
15:33:21 <ais523> I guess what you want to require is that the instruction pointer moves in the same way in both languages
15:33:40 <ais523> your "isomorphic after each command" seems to require an equivalence of instruction pointer movement to even be well-defined
15:33:56 <ais523> and the IP movement equivalent is sufficient by itself to ban Salpynx-style translations
15:34:02 <ais523> but, it seems hard to define rigorously
15:34:26 <orbitaldecay> yeah, particularly because the source and destination programs don't need to require the same number of symbols
15:34:33 <ais523> you can define it rigorously for RBF but I don't think it generalises to other languages
15:35:26 <orbitaldecay> I don't think so either
15:36:04 <orbitaldecay> I mean, the easiest and most restrictive way of dealing with it is to simply require that the languages use the same model
15:36:23 <orbitaldecay> so that's one view
15:36:43 <ais523> hmm, suppose you add to both languages a command that has some observable effect on the outside world, but doesn't affect the program's internal state
15:36:45 <orbitaldecay> that's good for talking about minimalizations of languages
15:36:56 <ais523> now you add it at the same point in both programs
15:37:02 <orbitaldecay> like an output command?
15:37:05 <ais523> right
15:37:14 <ais523> if the control flow is the same, it should run the same number of times in both programs
15:37:34 <ais523> but because it isn't allowed to affect the program's internal state, a Salpynx-style translation can't notice it exists
15:37:40 <ais523> so if you put it inside a loop it runs the wrong number of times
15:38:10 <ais523> I think this works for any programming language that allows an-arbitrary-effect-at-an-arbitrary point
15:38:24 <ais523> which may go some distance to coming up with a definition of what AAEAAAP actually means
15:39:29 <orbitaldecay> I am inclined to require a simple translation to use the same model for both languages and generalize from there, maybe a "generalized simple translation"
15:39:44 <orbitaldecay> could involve something like what you're talking about
15:40:15 <ais523> my #1 concern is making the definition as rigorous and non-corner-casey as possible
15:40:53 <orbitaldecay> I agree
15:41:40 <orbitaldecay> I am going to modify the simple translation page to require the same model as that's the spirit in which it was created. From there let's talk about generalizing it between models.
15:41:51 <ais523> anyway, I believe that a definition of simple translation that a) focuses entirely on halt behaviour, not internal state, b) allows an arbitrary prefix and suffix
15:42:02 <ais523> is an entirely different concept from yours but also randomly happens to be very useful for thinking about languages
15:42:20 <ais523> even though the definition is almost the same, it now permits almost anything (because it permits interpreters that look at a string literal)
15:42:53 <ais523> and the nice thing about permitting almost anything TC is that it /doesn't/ permit some things that are TC, which is valuable information in its own right
15:43:23 <ais523> I was hoping to call that "generalized simple translation" but perhaps it needs its own name
15:44:25 <ais523> anyway, even looking at the small picture, RBF→PF→RBF simple translation is a really interesting problem (I believe it's possible without Salpynx-style approaches, although you might need a lot of temporary tape space)
15:44:37 <ais523> and Underload→2-command Underload→Underload simple translation is also interesting
15:44:41 <ais523> at the lexical level
15:44:59 <orbitaldecay> Yeah, I am quite interested in exploring underload minimizations in this context
15:45:09 <ais523> we already have a translation that handles everything except "complex" (…), where the commands are (~)(:)(^)(a)(*)(!!!!!!) and ^
15:45:39 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71582&oldid=71569 * Orby * (-277) Changing definition to require same machine model between languages
15:46:11 <ais523> Underload is TC using finitely many possible (…) commands; the usual set is (~)(:)(!)(*)(a)(^), and it's trivial to break down any existing Underload programs to use only those 6 (…) commands
15:46:59 <ais523> and you can produce a simple translation between (~) (:) (!) (*) (a) (^) ~ : ! * a ^ Underload and (~)(:)(^)(a)(*)(!!!!!!) ^ Underload
15:47:31 <ais523> but what's piqued my interest is: in the full version of Underload, can you produce a simple translation of ( and ) on their own?
15:47:54 <ais523> I guess you could call this a "lexical simple translation" because it's based on the characters of the source code, not the individual commands
15:48:37 <orbitaldecay> interesting!
15:49:21 <orbitaldecay> I am concerned that the current definition of simple translation still allows for salpynx-style translations
15:50:07 <orbitaldecay> My brain is getting fuzzy
15:50:12 <ais523> the best part of Underload minimization, IMO, is when we discovered that ~ can be expressed in terms of the other commands, but it's really complicated to do so
15:50:31 <ais523> the shortest known implementation of ~ in terms of the others is a(!a)(!)(a*a*:*^!a*^):*^ which is just ridiculous :-)
15:50:53 <orbitaldecay> Man, I need to get into underload
15:52:29 <ais523> ^ul (a)(b)SS
15:52:29 <fungot> ba
15:52:37 <ais523> ^ul (a)(b)a(!a)(!)(a*a*:*^!a*^):*^SS
15:52:37 <fungot> ab
15:52:50 <ais523> ^ul (a)(b)a(!a)(!)(a*a*:*^!a*^)^SS
15:52:51 <fungot> b!
15:52:57 <ais523> ^ul (a)(b)a(!a)(!)(a*a*:*^!a*^)^SSS
15:52:57 <fungot> b!(a)
15:53:03 <ais523> ^ul (a)(b)a(!a)(!)(a*a*:*^!a*^)^SSSS
15:53:03 <fungot> b!(a) ...out of stack!
15:53:39 <b_jonas> ^ul (a)(b) ~ S(-)S
15:53:40 <fungot> ...bad insn!
15:54:01 <b_jonas> ^ul (a)(b)SS
15:54:01 <fungot> ba
15:54:09 <b_jonas> ^ul (a)(b) ~ S(z)S
15:54:09 <fungot> ...bad insn!
15:54:14 <b_jonas> ^ul (a)(b) ~ SS
15:54:14 <fungot> ...bad insn!
15:54:19 <b_jonas> ^ul (a)(b) ~ S
15:54:19 <fungot> ...bad insn!
15:54:21 <b_jonas> ^ul (a)(b)~S
15:54:21 <fungot> a
15:54:25 <b_jonas> oh, it doesn't like whitespace
15:54:32 <b_jonas> ^ul (a)(b)~S(-)SS
15:54:32 <fungot> a-b
15:54:40 <b_jonas> ^ul (a)(b)a(!a)(!)(a*a*:*^!a*^):*^S(-)SS
15:54:40 <fungot> a-b
15:55:15 <orbitaldecay> gtg, catch yall later
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15:56:16 <b_jonas> ^ul (a)(b)~*()SS
15:56:16 <fungot> ba
15:56:21 <b_jonas> ^ul (a)(b)*()SS
15:56:22 <fungot> ab
15:56:31 <b_jonas> ^ right, that's why you can't test with just SS
15:56:37 <b_jonas> ^ul (a)(b)*()S(-)SS
15:56:37 <fungot> -ab
15:56:46 <ais523> b_jonas: I was being sloppy, I know
15:56:51 <ais523> but it's good enough for testing when you know you aren't cheating
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15:59:35 <ais523> what we really need for this is the A command from Underlambda
15:59:50 <ais523> it puts parentheses around the /entire/ stack, not just the top element
16:00:03 <ais523> so, e.g. (a)(b)AS prints "(a)(b)"
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16:28:56 <esowiki> [[W (A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71583&oldid=71402 * LegionMammal978 * (-11) Undo revision 71402 by [[Special:Contributions/LegionMammal978|LegionMammal978]] ([[User talk:LegionMammal978|talk]])
16:28:59 <esowiki> [[Resource]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71584&oldid=71403 * LegionMammal978 * (-11) Undo revision 71403 by [[Special:Contributions/LegionMammal978|LegionMammal978]] ([[User talk:LegionMammal978|talk]])
16:29:01 <esowiki> [[Tq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71585&oldid=71404 * LegionMammal978 * (-11) Undo revision 71404 by [[Special:Contributions/LegionMammal978|LegionMammal978]] ([[User talk:LegionMammal978|talk]])
16:32:41 <rain1> > BF derivatives
16:32:44 <lambdabot> error:
16:32:44 <lambdabot> Data constructor not in scope: BF :: t0 -> terror: Variable not in scope...
16:32:49 <rain1> is it possible to differentiate brainfuck programs?
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16:34:26 <rain1> i like RBF
16:34:36 <rain1> it has a nice minimalism
16:42:46 <arseniiv> (BF)′ = B′F + BF′. A brain derivative may well be psyche, but I’ll abstain from finding the second one :?
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16:49:21 <b_jonas> `! underload (hello )S
16:49:22 <HackEso> hello
16:50:03 <b_jonas> `` \! underload "(hello )S"
16:50:11 <HackEso> Attempt to execute unknown command 117
16:50:17 <b_jonas> ^ why does this one fail?
16:50:29 <b_jonas> where is that error message coming from?
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16:54:19 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71586&oldid=71582 * Orby * (+280)
16:55:15 <int-e> `` \! "underload (hello )S"
16:55:16 <HackEso> hello
16:56:32 <b_jonas> int-e: oh right! sorry
16:56:41 <b_jonas> `! underload
16:56:42 <HackEso> Attempt to execute unknown command 117
16:56:49 <b_jonas> `! underload
16:56:50 <HackEso> No output.
17:00:23 <int-e> `` echo -n "ul" | cut -d' ' -f2-
17:00:26 <HackEso> ul
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17:03:08 <int-e> (that doesn't cut it)
17:07:15 <esowiki> [[User:Willicoder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71587&oldid=71382 * Willicoder * (+143)
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17:19:18 <tswett[m]> Hmmmm
17:22:07 <tswett[m]> a(b(c + d + e) + c(d + e) + de) + b(c(d + e) + de) + cde
17:22:52 <tswett[m]> If you want to write a Boolean function, one way is as an expression such as the above.
17:23:10 <tswett[m]> But those can get cumbersome; at some point you want to switch from expressions to circuits.
17:26:51 <tswett[m]> a(b(c(d + e + f + g) + d(e + f + g) + e(f + g) + fg) + c(d(e + f + g) + e(f + g) + fg) + d(e(f + g) + fg) + efg) + b(c(d(e + f + g) + e(f + g) + fg) + d(e(f + g) + fg) + efg) + c(d(e(f + g) + fg) + e(f + g) + fg) + defg
17:27:09 <tswett[m]> I think that's how to write the 4-of-7 majority gate as an expression.
17:27:12 <tswett[m]> It's awful :D
17:31:39 <esowiki> [[Nanofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71588&oldid=71574 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-38)
17:32:49 <esowiki> [[Nanofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71589&oldid=71588 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Reversible Bitfuck */
17:35:04 <esowiki> [[Small]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71590&oldid=71167 * LegionMammal978 * (-45) fixed example
17:35:37 <esowiki> [[Small]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71591&oldid=71590 * LegionMammal978 * (+17) fixed code
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17:40:21 <esowiki> [[W (A)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71595&oldid=71594 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2)
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19:25:56 <esowiki> [[Conditional brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71597 * Orby * (+1609) Created page with "Conditional brainfuck (CBF) is a brainfuck variant discovered by [[User:Orby]] in May of 2020. =Model= CBF uses a tape of n-bit wrapping cells which is unbounded on the right...."
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19:59:50 <esowiki> [[Exp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71602&oldid=70011 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) /* Cat program (1 character) */ category
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20:03:08 <esowiki> [[Uack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71604&oldid=71492 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) /* Examples */
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20:05:26 <esowiki> [[MangularJS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71606&oldid=71465 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* Variable */
20:05:57 <esowiki> [[HaltJS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71607&oldid=70959 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+7) /* Hello World */ cat
20:06:26 <esowiki> [[HaltJS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71608&oldid=71607 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-8) damn Unicode quotes
20:06:42 <esowiki> [[HaltJS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71609&oldid=71608 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) /* Hello World */
20:08:29 <esowiki> [[Cut]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71610&oldid=68212 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) cats
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20:16:53 <Sgeo> Would conscious life be more likely to emerge in a randomly seeded Game of Life universe (with no known small replicators) or in a HighLife universe (with a known small replicator)?
20:18:45 <Sgeo> (Although I guess GoL still has replicators likely to be a lot smaller than anything resembling actual life?)
20:19:06 <fizzie> I imagine you'll just have to conduct some simulations to find out.
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20:21:21 <esowiki> [[Gibberish/JavaScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71615&oldid=43349 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) /* Asterisks counter */ rm redlink
20:22:51 <esowiki> [[BitChanger]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71616&oldid=53679 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) /* External resources */ cat
20:23:31 <esowiki> [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71617&oldid=68211 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) /* C Implementation */ cat
20:41:52 <ais523> orbitaldecay: why do you keep using <h1> headings on the wiki? those are meant to be for the heading at the top of the page
20:42:01 <ais523> or for special cases where you need something bigger than the normal <h2>
21:05:55 <zzo38> The shuffling function I implemented in TeXnicard seems to work now, in addition to the random number function. (I implemented my own rather than using that of SQLite or of the operating system, because I will need the random numbers to be reproducible.)
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21:18:25 <orbitaldecay> ais523: just plain ignorance on my part :)
21:30:12 <orbitaldecay> ais523: Ok, I'm really interested in Overload due to it's close relationship with unlambda and my recent foray into adding the forth : ; to stack based languages
21:31:07 <orbitaldecay> I made a bootable iso last week of what I'm calling Skiforth, which is basically postfix unlamda with the forth style : ; word definitions
21:31:43 <orbitaldecay> The forth style word definitions are crazy powerful when combined with basically any stack based language
21:32:12 <orbitaldecay> I should say specifically postfix stack based languages
21:33:51 <orbitaldecay> I don't understand the overload ^ operator, could you explain the model?
21:42:03 <imode> forth style word definitions are insanely powerful. forth without random access is nearly unbearable!
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22:09:05 <Train> I golfed my addition program.
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22:18:25 <zseri> huh, did freenode have a hiccup?
22:18:35 <Train> I think so.
22:21:33 <Train> zzo38, I golfed my addition.
22:21:40 <Train> 357 bytes down to 114.
22:23:02 <zzo38> Train: O, good.
22:23:41 <Train> Here's the new one:
22:23:47 <Train> SdaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaV
22:23:55 <Train> It's much tidier.
22:24:08 <Train> Do you know how I can represent it so it doesn't fill spaces
22:24:25 <Train> Because it doesn't show the code very well on here.
22:24:35 <Train> Does freenode support latex?
22:24:52 <zzo38> You should perhaps post with sprunge and then post the link.
22:25:00 <Train> Okay.
22:25:24 <Train> http://sprunge.us/9HUcOz
22:25:25 <zzo38> Freenode is a IRC server; it isn't the job of the IRC server to support LaTeX, although maybe some clients do I don't know (although mine doesn't).
22:25:53 <Train> Okay.
22:27:46 <zzo38> I do have TeX on my computer, although it is Plain TeX and not LaTeX.
22:28:19 <Train> Alright. Can you see the sprunge?
22:28:37 <zzo38> Yes.
22:28:47 <Train> What do you think?
22:29:02 <Train> Of the new addition program?
22:29:55 <zzo38> It look like OK to me.
22:30:25 <Train> It's nice and compact.
22:31:01 <zzo38> Yes.
22:31:33 <Train> I'm quite proud of the little relay down the bottom, since it's so compact.
22:33:37 <Train> I saw one of your esolangs, memfractal. Quite a cool concept.
22:37:07 <Train> https://esolangs.org/logs/2002-12-14.html is the first log I can see. How long has this channel been around for?
22:37:25 <zzo38> I don't know.
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22:51:16 <Train> zzo38, I'm still curious about your method for finding quines. Can you elaborate?
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23:02:17 <zzo38> I don't have any method; I just did it.
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23:04:46 <b_jonas> I do have a method. It's that I create a quine by making a list of strings and indexing into them from a list of indexes.
23:04:52 <b_jonas> Train: ^
23:05:19 <b_jonas> It leads to quines like
23:05:29 <b_jonas> `perl -eprint+("`perl -eprint+(","\"",",","\\",")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]
23:05:30 <HackEso> ​`perl -eprint+("`perl -eprint+(","\"",",","\\",")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]
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23:12:52 <Train> I can see how you worked out it would be one line long, but the actual interspersing of NOPs was amazing.
23:19:13 <zzo38> Well, I don't really have a method.
23:20:39 <b_jonas> `` rm -v /hackenv/stuff
23:20:41 <HackEso> removed '/hackenv/stuff'
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2020-05-02
00:07:04 -!- kevinalh has joined.
00:10:24 <zzo38> Is the word NIHONIUM in the latest version of the Scrabble dictionary?
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00:36:07 <ais523> orbitaldecay: ^ in Underload is basically an eval operation
00:36:14 <ais523> it takes the top stack element and runs it as though it were a program
00:36:23 <ais523> ^ul (x)aS
00:36:24 <fungot> (x)
00:36:29 <ais523> ^ul (x)(a)^S
00:36:29 <fungot> (x)
00:37:21 <ais523> the only way to do a loop in Underload is to use a chain of ^s to do recursion
00:37:35 <b_jonas> yeah, but orbitaldecay mentioned "Overload", not "Underload". I don't know what the former is, but I know that there are other ^ operators than the underload ones.
00:38:32 <b_jonas> `! underload ((loop )S:^):^
00:38:33 <HackEso> loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop lo
00:39:01 <imode> l00p
00:40:40 <fizzie> ^ul (aS(:^)S):^
00:40:40 <fungot> (aS(:^)S):^
00:41:11 <ais523> b_jonas: I assume it was just a mistake
00:41:16 <ais523> Overload was a language that I never finished designing
00:41:19 <ais523> Underload is a subset of it
00:41:37 <b_jonas> I see
00:41:40 <ais523> many of the operations in Overload would look /really/ out of place in an Underload-alike, e.g. it had pointers, and goto commands
00:42:07 <ais523> but it was in a very unfinished state and I never wrote my ideas down
00:42:25 <ais523> (it wouldn't really have worked as a language, I don't think; Underload was how I salvaged it into something useful)
00:43:26 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, I inveted Consumer Society by trying to think of a slightly larger language, then realized how you need very few rules to get something easy to remember and elegant.
00:46:34 <zzo38> I have a document of how Lore Seeker makes up random booster packs for official and unofficial sets of Magic: the Gathering cards, which are many different ways depending on which set, including "naive algorithm", "taw's algorithm" (which replaces five of the common slots with color locked slots), "Reuben's algorithm", and a few others.
00:47:37 <zzo38> What Lore Seeker calls "naive algorithm" can be implemented in TeXnicard as: create view deck_draft(cards,count,options) as select make_deck(id),1,0x0 from cards where rarity = 'B' union all select make_deck(id),10,0x0001 from cards where rarity = 'C' union all select make_deck(id),3,0x0001 from cards where rarity = 'U' union all select make_deck(id,'w',case when rarity = 'R' then 2 else 1 end),1,0 from cards where rarity in ('R','M')
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00:56:41 <zzo38> What card games need algorithms which cannot be represented in this way?
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02:17:15 <Train> zzo38, do you have any ideas for what I should make next in trainCode? I'm taking a break from the minsky machine.
02:19:59 <zzo38> Train: I don't know; sorry
02:23:59 <imode> forth "grammar" is pretty complex. almost impossible to verify properly that you'll use something in a way that's intended. if you design a linguistic feature and users don't use it correctly, it's nearly impossible to determine why unless it's something obvious.
02:27:37 <Train> Have any of you guys ever tried your hand at artificial life?
02:28:56 <imode> some times.
02:29:12 <Train> I'm doing one rn.
02:29:59 <Train> They have evolved the ability to spontaneously regenerate on a molecular level. Any suggestions on how I could stop this?
02:30:23 <imode> I mean. what're you authoring your simulation in.
02:30:32 <Train> What do you mean?
02:30:52 <imode> artificial life usually implies that you've got a simulator for your "organisms" to live in.
02:31:11 <Train> Yes, I do.
02:31:36 <imode> okay... so what's it written in. how are you defining the rules for the components of your organism to behave.
02:31:41 <Train> It's made in processing, and since this is the most technical internet forum I've found so far, I'm wondering if you guys can help me.
02:31:59 <imode> link?
02:32:15 <Train> It's not online yet.
02:32:24 <imode> uh-huh. got a paste that of code?
02:32:28 <Train> sure
02:32:32 <Train> most of it anyway
02:33:50 <Train> but here's the basics:
02:33:56 <Train> there are n types of particle
02:34:23 <Train> each type of particle is either attracted, repulsed or neutral towards other particles, and this is inverse-squarely proportional to distance
02:35:48 <Train> That's it.
02:35:57 <imode> congratz, you've invented an n-body sim.
02:36:03 <Train> Yes.
02:36:59 <Train> And I created about 125 of each type. and ran it.
02:38:16 <Train> they form stable clusters rapidly
02:41:53 <Train> to the point where I can't destroy them
03:04:09 <Train> How can I change it so they don't do this.
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04:34:38 <Train> Gudday.
04:35:57 <zzo38> Hello.
04:36:16 <Train> Ah, zzo38! Are you always online?
04:36:35 <zzo38> Usually. Not quite always.
04:37:35 <Train> It's very peculiar. Every time that I log on, you are online. Are you semi-afk on irc, and doing something else, or do you just sit here, waiting for people so you can catch them as soon as they enter?
04:38:22 <zzo38> I do many other things too.
04:38:35 <shachaf> Train: Every time you log on, you're also online.
04:38:35 <zzo38> I was working on TeXnicard, for example.
04:38:46 <shachaf> So I don't know why you find it surprising that someone else is.
04:41:13 <Train> shachaf, let the probability of me being online at any given time be x, a value between 0 and 1 and the probability of zzo38 being online be y, a value between 0 and 1. When I log on, zzo38 has always been online, indicating a very high value of y regardless of the value of x (which is anyway fairly low). This y-value is almost 1 and as such I am
04:41:13 <Train> surprised at such a high value. Are you not?
04:41:40 <shachaf> I don't know, should I expect them to be independent?
04:42:19 <Train> from esolangs.org/logs, I find that there is a correlation of ~0.3
04:42:45 <Train> It's not enormous, so they are mostly independent, and the high y-value makes the correlation higher.
04:42:58 <Train> Why are we discussing this?
04:43:02 <shachaf> It sounds like you already know the answer to "Are you always online?".
04:43:52 <Train> No, I checked it after zzo38 said he was generally online most of the time. A quick check of https://esolangs.org/logs/2020-04.html and https://esolangs.org/logs/2020-05.html is all that I needed to obtain my values.
04:44:46 <zzo38> What time zone are you in?
04:46:00 <Train> GMT+12
04:46:05 <zzo38> OK
04:47:32 <Train> Wake Island.
04:48:20 <Train> A long way from anywhere.
04:54:58 <Train> No, I'm joking. I don't work for the US air force, and I won't give my location away to random internet strangers.
04:55:31 <Train> And I'm also at least 8560 miles away from anywhere that uses GMT+12.
04:55:38 <Train> :)
04:55:56 <zzo38> OK
04:56:04 <Train> :)
04:56:09 <Train> That is a terrifying smiley.
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05:28:56 <imode> train must be young.
05:29:49 <zzo38> OK, but what makes you believe that, though?
05:32:13 <imode> just seems like it. was young once.
05:33:03 <zzo38> O, OK
05:34:15 <pikhq> Youth is such a distinctive thing.
05:36:33 * pikhq finds the days of hiding physical location online so weird now
05:53:58 <imode> large-scale social media has encouraged individuals to share data in an attempt at forming a personal connection, as if opening your actual, personal self in the form of datapoints about your real life will help make connections. it's a ploy to get your data and market to you. you can form a connection with another human without ever knowing anything about their real-life endeavors.
05:54:29 <imode> in fact, it's probably better. you learn how to accept people for who they are despite "who" they are.
05:54:53 <zzo38> Also, lie if you want to.
05:55:01 <shachaf> Please get my data and market to me!
05:55:03 <imode> yeah. but that's your freedom.
05:55:12 <imode> shachaf: marketing to you would be a herculian effort.
05:55:22 <shachaf> Why?
05:55:36 <imode> I have no idea what you like!
05:55:51 <shachaf> Well, that's your job to decide as a marketer.
05:56:01 <imode> woah woah, I never signed up for that. :P
05:56:19 <shachaf> I like cats.
05:56:30 <imode> 200 advertisements for meow mix, got it.
05:57:02 <shachaf> OK, don't blame me for your terrible marketing skills.
06:00:18 <pikhq> shachaf's preferences are a little easier to discern irl
06:00:32 <pikhq> ... not easy at all, i've got like one or two additional things to add in there, but hey
06:11:29 <zzo38> One question of the hacker test says if you own a flowchart template. I actually do have a flowchart template from IBM.
06:12:54 <shachaf> whoa, what can you market to me?
06:12:56 <shachaf> Is it cats?
06:13:19 <zzo38> I am not a marketer.
06:23:15 <pikhq> shachaf: i'm pretty sure it's scows
06:24:03 <shachaf> Hmm...
06:24:30 <pikhq> good sir or madam, would you like to buy a scow?
06:25:11 <shachaf> It all depends on the price.
06:25:24 <pikhq> i suppose it does
06:26:23 <shachaf> Hmm, I'd like to buy software that isn't terrible.
06:26:28 <shachaf> I guess I'd pay a lot for that.
06:27:22 <pikhq> afraid the best i can do is random cute things
06:27:40 <shachaf> What's the deal with people writing interfaces like make_foo().with_thing(true).with_other_thing(5).all_done_now()?
06:27:47 <pikhq> not quite as good as software that isn't terrible, but can make you feel better about the software that is terrible
06:28:38 <pikhq> If you put newlines before the dots it ends up looking almost "clean"
06:28:43 <pikhq> if you ignore the nonsense of course
06:28:53 <shachaf> I guess this is popular in Java land. But I saw a Rust library that does it now, and I've seen it in other languages.
06:29:06 <shachaf> Just seems kind of silly. I guess it's fine.
06:29:19 <pikhq> The Java programmers don't just stay in Java land, I'm sad to report.
06:29:20 <shachaf> Fortunately C doesn't support this idiom.
06:29:36 <pikhq> C has its own downsides, of course.
06:30:05 <shachaf> It's true.
06:30:10 <shachaf> But what are the better options?
06:30:13 <zzo38> The problem with C is the confusing type syntax. (Well, it is one of them.)
06:30:50 <pikhq> Hardly ever is any given language going to be strictly "better" than the other, imo
06:31:01 <pikhq> All language decisions come with tradeoffs.
06:31:25 <pikhq> It's a matter of which sacrifices you're willing to make for which benefits, really
06:31:25 <shachaf> OK, but what can I use in practice for a thing that I might use C for right now?
06:31:41 <pikhq> Best choices are C, C++, and Rust in that general space
06:31:44 <zzo38> Depend what you are making, I think.
06:32:02 <shachaf> Rust seems to be going way in the wrong direction.
06:32:05 <shachaf> And C++ too.
06:33:06 <myname> why do you think rust is going in the wrong direction?
06:34:50 <zzo38> There are many good features of C that other programming languages don't do so well.
06:35:39 <myname> also, what's your suggestion to handle make_foo().with_thing(true).with_other_thing(5).all_done_now() better without sacrificing a reasonable type system
06:37:01 <pikhq> war on types
06:37:07 <pikhq> it's been all downhill since church
06:37:25 <myname> i see, you are a js dev
06:37:38 <pikhq> no, just a smartass
06:37:42 <pikhq> and professional yaml dev :/
06:37:47 <shachaf> Uh oh.
06:37:47 <myname> haha
06:37:53 <shachaf> Can I market some YAML to you?
06:37:59 <pikhq> No.
06:38:21 <pikhq> I have > 1 lines of YAML already, it's far too many
06:38:21 <myname> shachaf: what's such a good c feature?
06:39:13 <myname> whenever i think of c, i fail to think of any positives
06:39:44 <shachaf> It is pretty simple and mostly corresponds to how computers work.
06:39:58 <shachaf> Not that it maximizes either one.
06:40:17 <myname> well, it's macro assembler, but i don't see that as an advantage
06:40:56 <myname> you don't need to write how computers work. that will more likely produce bad code if you aren't an expert
06:41:18 <shachaf> I only want to be able to write code that corresponds to how computers work.
06:41:25 <shachaf> But most languages won't let you do that.
06:41:37 <shachaf> There are certainly features that would improve C.
06:42:06 <myname> write assembly, then. modern c compilers do stuff you would never imagine while writing your c code
06:42:58 <imode> write in forth.
06:43:07 <imode> be quirky.
06:43:16 <zzo38> C does have many good features, such as pointer arithmetic, setjmp/longjmp, macros, etc. But many things it doesn't do so well that assembly language is doing much better.
06:44:01 <myname> you can do that in rust, too, if you really wanted to. there's just virtually no reason to do so
06:44:36 <shachaf> Is Rust good?
06:44:57 <shachaf> Say you want to write a program that doesn't use malloc but has other allocation strategies. Doesn't Rust fight you all the time?
06:45:13 <myname> rust tries to remove as many errors as possible during compile time. big fan of that approach
06:45:55 <myname> what do you mean by that? you could easily write your own allocator and use that
06:46:09 <myname> in fact, the api is way easier to handle than that of c
06:46:15 <dnm> Since I'm idling in #esoteric, I think I mostly want to echo imode.
06:46:32 <myname> like, dealloc will get a pointer and the amount of memory to free
06:46:40 <myname> no need to keep track of sizes of data
06:46:49 <dnm> I don't know if Forth even counts as esoteric, actually. But of those recently mentioned...
06:47:23 <shachaf> Well, if you use arena allocation, you don't even need to call dealloc. But Rust is all about destructors and RAII and things like that, I think?
06:48:45 <myname> in safe code, it is, yeah. how's that a problem?
06:49:16 <dnm> shachaf: Consider Ada?
06:49:16 <shachaf> I mean, the things I'm talking about aren't even the real problem.
06:49:31 <shachaf> dnm: That's an option!
06:49:33 <myname> what is?
06:49:34 <shachaf> Not a real one, though.
06:49:37 <pikhq> I will not solve these problems for you.
06:49:44 <pikhq> I'm sorry, I'm a busy girl.
06:49:49 <pikhq> ;)
06:50:00 <dnm> shachaf: Not a real one?
06:50:12 <shachaf> Ada? I kind of doubt it.
06:50:19 <shachaf> Maybe for specialized things.
06:50:39 <dnm> shachaf: I guess I missed what the scenario is/constraints are
06:51:25 <dnm> Oh wait. Was it this? <shachaf> I only want to be able to write code that corresponds to how computers work.
06:51:42 <shachaf> I don't really know.
06:51:45 <pikhq> Yeah, I definitely won't be helpful for that.
06:52:10 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure dnm was suggesting Ada Lovelace.
06:52:25 <dnm> I mean, I could take a lot of issue with the idea that C is how computers work. But.
06:52:28 <shachaf> I'm confused about usage. Are you Ada Lovelace's namesake, or is she yours?
06:52:42 <shachaf> dnm: Well, I granted that!
06:52:51 <pikhq> I think she's my namesake.
06:53:13 <pikhq> Not a phrase that comes up much though
06:53:20 <dnm> shachaf: I was just saying Ada (as a language) could be considered re: <shachaf> Say you want to write a program that doesn't use malloc but has other allocation strategies. Doesn't Rust fight you all the time?
06:53:53 <pikhq> Huh, no, I'm her namesake apparently.
06:53:55 <shachaf> That's what I would have said, but then someone else was confused and now I'm confused.
06:54:01 <pikhq> English. Such a weird language.
06:54:03 <dnm> S'ok. Me too.
06:54:37 <dnm> imode: Speaking of Forth, you hacking anything in or adjacent to it?
06:54:38 <shachaf> The word "namesake" makes me think of the play Arcadia, where someone says "your illustrious namesake".
06:55:03 <pikhq> This is definitely more confusing than the mere namespace collision that is sharing a name with a programming language
06:55:23 <pikhq> Which is not very common, thankfully, so it usually doesn't matter
06:55:26 <shachaf> I guess Ada isn't directly mentioned in that play, though Byron is.
06:55:34 <shachaf> Maybe one character is based on her?
06:55:38 <shachaf> Lovelace, I mean.
06:55:49 <shachaf> Man, what a good play.
06:56:39 <shachaf> pikhq: Well, no one ever talks about Ada the programming language, whereas Lovelace is one of the only two people anyone ever names for "women in computing" for some reason.
06:57:01 <shachaf> So I imagine that collision happens a lot more.
06:57:27 <pikhq> It's a lovely name though.
06:58:48 <imode> dnm: yeah, I have a language called `mode` that's... kinda close to Forth?
06:59:18 <zzo38> I do sometimes use 6502 assembly language and Glulx assembly language, and sometimes write a program with more than one programming language, e.g. TeXnicard is written half in C, half in PostScript, and half in SQL.
06:59:21 <imode> it's pretty minimalist. the only single data structure you manipulate is a deque.
06:59:28 <imode> instead of two stacks.
06:59:39 <dnm> zzo38: I appreciate hand-written PostScript.
07:00:01 <shachaf> zzo38: How many total halves are in TeXnicard?
07:00:11 <dnm> imode: Neat. What'd you implement it in?
07:00:14 <shachaf> I would love for the answer to be two halves, using a complicated polyglot technique.
07:00:47 <imode> the concurrent version is implemented as a preprocessor that generates lists of C preprocessor tokens, which flatten out into C code.
07:01:18 <zzo38> dnm: Yes, that is all I use PostScript for. I think PostScript isn't very good as a protocol or a document storage format, but as a programming language it is not bad, especially for doing graphics.
07:01:20 <imode> the non-concurrent version does the same, only it actually flattens out into if/while statements.
07:01:44 <dnm> imode: URL?
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07:02:08 <zzo38> shachaf: TeXnicard is not made of "halves", I think.
07:02:56 <imode> dnm: https://git.imode.tech/?p=mode;a=tree;h=refs/heads/master;hb=refs/heads/master it's pretty old, but eh.
07:04:22 <imode> the preprocessor is a simple flattening macro system. you take a token, you see if it has a definition, and then you slap that definition in the middle of your program source.
07:04:27 <imode> rinse and repeat until reduced.
07:05:20 <imode> this version generates a list of function pointers to be executed.
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07:12:05 <dnm> imode: Cool! This looks pretty clean, too!
07:12:49 <imode> thanks! the only fundamental manipulation/shuffling ops are dup, drop, swap and last.
07:13:07 <imode> last moves something from the end of the queue to the head of the queue. all other operations, like dup, take items from the head and enqueue results to the tail.
07:13:40 <imode> so you can make your queue look like and behave like a stack if you want.
07:13:49 <zzo38> Also, in TeXnicard, PostScript codes can call SQL codes.
07:14:04 <imode> all other forth primitives (even `pick`!) can be implemented as compound macros.
07:17:02 <imode> this particular version includes concurrency. so you can spawn up lightweight processes and communicate synchronously between them. you can simulate functions by spinning up a process, sending it data, and then waiting for the result to be sent back.
07:18:44 <imode> haven't mapped 'em to threads yet.
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09:42:05 <APic> Moin
09:51:31 <rain1> hey
09:58:47 <spruit11> Moggels!
09:58:56 <spruit11> Oh.
09:59:08 <spruit11> Wrong chat.
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10:56:42 <APic> 😸
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13:50:14 <esowiki> [[VALGOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71618&oldid=71598 * LegionMammal978 * (-123) fixed with more recent link
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14:00:32 <esowiki> [[11CORTLANG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71619&oldid=71453 * LegionMammal978 * (+64) /* Hello, World! */ cat
14:06:14 <esowiki> [[Afz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71620&oldid=68244 * LegionMammal978 * (+45) cat
14:20:57 <esowiki> [[Apple Pie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71621&oldid=58443 * LegionMammal978 * (+74) cat
14:23:32 <esowiki> [[Asig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71622&oldid=39165 * LegionMammal978 * (+88) cat
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16:01:04 <esowiki> [[User talk:Sinjoro]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71624 * LegionMammal978 * (+172) Created page with "Do you currently have a Python interpreter written for [[PureBrainz]]? ~~~~"
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16:20:17 <j-bot> PsDw: 4
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16:20:55 <PsDw> [ *: 4
16:20:56 <j-bot> PsDw: 16
16:21:08 <PsDw> [ 4 + 4 5 + 5
16:21:08 <j-bot> PsDw: 13 14
16:21:27 <PsDw> 1 + 2 3 + 4
16:21:31 <PsDw> [ 1 + 2 3 + 4
16:21:31 <j-bot> PsDw: 7 8
16:22:00 <PsDw> [ *:4
16:22:01 <j-bot> PsDw: 16
16:24:36 <esowiki> [[Butterbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71625&oldid=71483 * Fwander * (-1)
16:26:36 <PsDw> [ 1 + 2 ; 3 + 4
16:26:36 <j-bot> PsDw: |domain error
16:26:36 <j-bot> PsDw: | 1 +2;3+4
16:27:07 <PsDw> [ x =: 100
16:27:08 <j-bot> PsDw: |ok
16:27:11 <PsDw> x + 1
16:27:16 <PsDw> [ x + 1
16:27:16 <j-bot> PsDw: 101
16:28:03 <PsDw> [ +/2 3 4
16:28:04 <j-bot> PsDw: 9
16:28:48 <PsDw> [ >. / 1 6 5 x
16:28:48 <j-bot> PsDw: |syntax error
16:28:48 <j-bot> PsDw: | >./ 1 6 5 x
16:28:54 <PsDw> [ >. / 1 6 5
16:28:54 <j-bot> PsDw: 6
16:28:58 <PsDw> [ >. / x 1 6 5
16:28:59 <j-bot> PsDw: |syntax error
16:28:59 <j-bot> PsDw: | >./ x 1 6 5
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17:14:17 <FireFly> oh bummer, they left
17:14:32 <FireFly> [ x =. 100
17:14:32 <j-bot> FireFly: |ok
17:14:41 <FireFly> [ >./ x,1 6 5 NB. FWIW
17:14:42 <j-bot> FireFly: 100
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18:39:12 <rain1> http://r6.ca/blog/20190223T161625Z.html
18:44:41 <FireFly> rain1: "You don't have permission to access this resource."
18:48:44 <zzo38> I do not have a problem accessing it with Lynx.
18:49:57 <FireFly> huh..
18:50:30 <FireFly> I get a 403 Forbidden via both Firefox and curl
18:51:16 <zzo38> Try Lynx then, and see if that works. If that doesn't work either, try using a different proxy, maybe.
18:51:30 <FireFly> so I'm going to assume the server doesn't like me, rather than there being something weird with my request
18:52:06 <rain1> https://pastebin.com/J47FRwGx here is a copy of the page
18:52:18 <zzo38> FireFly: Yes, that would seem so, it look like to me
18:52:19 <FireFly> I'm using a residential connection from a Swedish ISP, not sure what'd be weird about that o.o
18:52:26 <FireFly> rain1: danke
18:59:10 <zzo38> Is it because you set the language header to Swedish instead of English? Maybe they don't have a version of that document in Swedish.
18:59:39 <FireFly> I think I request english primarily, with swedish as a secondary choice
18:59:54 <FireFly> it'd be a pretty weird reason for a 403 to me, oh well
19:01:13 <zzo38> Yes, if your request says English, then that shouldn't be that problem, and even if you do specify only languages they don't have, presumably if there is an error code due to that at all, it should be 406 and not 403, I think.
19:06:30 <b_jonas> I also set all my browsers to request English. only on very few sites does that prove a problem. Most sites just ignore those headers anyway.
19:16:32 <zzo38> Do you like my "separations output format"? It is not currently implemented, but may be implemented in TeXnicard and possibly other programs too in future they might find it useful to implement this kind of file format.
19:17:08 <zzo38> It is meant as a simple raster format for printing.
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19:32:22 <zzo38> Although, maybe commands should be added to specify such things as rendering intent and so on (programs that do not understand these commands can ignore them).
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20:40:59 <esowiki> [[Unary Filesystem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71627&oldid=71503 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+141)
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20:45:44 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * EvilMuffinHa * New user account
20:46:14 <esowiki> [[Resource]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71628&oldid=71584 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Useful Instructions (I am not sure whether they are useful in restricted source contests though) */ fix header
20:49:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71629&oldid=71540 * EvilMuffinHa * (+214) /* Introductions */
20:53:55 <b_jonas> fungot, you're got at remembering things. when does the patent on automatic squirrel feeders expire?
20:53:56 <fungot> b_jonas: i don't disagree with your point, but i think it tries to execute it
20:54:09 <b_jonas> execute the squirrels? oh, my!
20:54:25 <b_jonas> Taneb: fungot is shedding light on one of your nefarious plots
20:54:25 <fungot> b_jonas: got a test button working in awt... now on the rest
21:04:26 <fizzie> fungot: What are you working on there?
21:04:26 <fungot> fizzie: e.g. by using english i make it more verbose :) let me do
21:04:40 <fizzie> I guess I'll back off and leave you to it.
21:05:45 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71630 * EvilMuffinHa * (+876) Created page with "'''Rhoam''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:EvilMuffinHa]] in [[:Category:2019|2019]] in which there are only 3 characters. == Syntax == Rhoam has a..."
21:06:23 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71631&oldid=71630 * EvilMuffinHa * (+24)
21:06:49 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71632&oldid=71631 * EvilMuffinHa * (+6)
21:07:44 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71633&oldid=71632 * EvilMuffinHa * (+1)
21:11:08 <esowiki> [[Wrapping Rhoam]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71634 * EvilMuffinHa * (+1004) Created page with "'''Wrapping Rhoam''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:EvilMuffinHa]] in [[:Category:2019|2019]] in which there are only 2 characters. It is an extensi..."
21:11:22 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71635&oldid=71633 * EvilMuffinHa * (+35)
21:12:47 <esowiki> [[Wrapping Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71636&oldid=71634 * EvilMuffinHa * (+9)
21:17:16 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71637&oldid=71635 * EvilMuffinHa * (+0)
21:18:12 <esowiki> [[Rhoam Ultimate]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71638 * EvilMuffinHa * (+1184) Created page with "'''Rhoam Ultimate''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:EvilMuffinHa]] in [[:Category:2019|2019]] in which there is only 1 character. It is an extension..."
21:18:31 <esowiki> [[Wrapping Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71639&oldid=71636 * EvilMuffinHa * (+21)
21:18:54 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71640&oldid=71637 * EvilMuffinHa * (+21)
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21:40:07 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71641&oldid=71580 * EvilMuffinHa * (+33) /* R */
21:40:56 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71642&oldid=71641 * EvilMuffinHa * (+21) /* W */
21:41:08 <esowiki> [[User:EvilMuffinHa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71643 * EvilMuffinHa * (+96) Created page with "Hi, I'm '''EvilMuffinHa'''. I have created * [[Rhoam]] * [[Wrapping Rhoam]] * [[Rhoam Ultimate]]"
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22:30:24 <imode> back in the rut... why can nothing that's expressive and usable ever have a stupid simple implementation.
22:32:23 <zzo38> Did you consider Forth?
22:32:38 <imode> not that expressive, turns out.
22:32:54 <imode> plus the model gives people headaches.
22:33:11 <imode> I am called by the siren that is rewriting to investigate alternatives, never being satisfied with a single one.
22:39:22 <imode> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1e8e/82cc742e832f6182f9415835894e35f670a4.pdf
22:39:43 <imode> neat concept, basing your control flow around l-systems.
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2020-05-03
00:13:04 -!- Antebrationist has joined.
00:13:10 <Antebrationist> This is my usual nickname.
00:13:50 <Antebrationist> I was called "train" on here earlier, after my esolang, but I think my normal name will cause less difficulties.
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00:15:18 <zzo38> OK
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00:22:44 <Antebrationist> Oh zzo38, I have fully planned out the minsky machine and started to build it.
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00:39:00 <zzo38> OK
00:46:00 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71644&oldid=71640 * EvilMuffinHa * (+972)
00:46:48 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71645&oldid=71644 * EvilMuffinHa * (+154)
00:47:16 <Antebrationist> What does esowiki do?
00:47:21 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71646&oldid=71645 * EvilMuffinHa * (-20)
00:47:50 <imode> says who changed what in the wiki.
00:48:28 <Antebrationist> So, its like an edit tracker.
00:48:35 <imode> yuh.
00:48:43 <shachaf> `5 w
00:48:46 <HackEso> 1/2:tetrapleur//tetrapleur is the new name of quadrilaterals. \ spore//spore <n> stores its input in tmp/spout and displays the nth line (default first). For a version considering irc line lengths, see sport. See also `spam. \ gey//I know nothing about Gey, sir. \ english channel//If it existed, the English Channel would separate Hexham from Finland. \ hppavilion[42]//hppavilion[42] is the awesomest person you will ever meet. Much aw
00:48:48 <shachaf> `n
00:48:49 <HackEso> 2/2:esomer than oerjan.
00:48:55 <shachaf> `5
00:48:57 <HackEso> 1/2:457) <ais523> (Enigma is two games; one is solving Enigma puzzles, the other is working out how to represent things as Enigma puzzles, preferably with the minimal amount of lua and player-hidden information possible) \ 1093) <kmc> anyway getting naked and high in the desert doesn't make you a rebel, as much as I enjoy this activity \ 1231) <ais523> do we seriously not do quotes any more? \ 425) <Taneb> So it's like... Rummy mixed with... b
00:49:01 <shachaf> `n
00:49:02 <HackEso> 2/2:reakout? \ 982) <zzo38> My opinion is that you are all wrong, as far as I can tell.
00:49:29 <int-e> `spam
00:49:30 <HackEso> 1/2:457) <ais523> (Enigma is two games; one is solving Enigma puzzles, the other is working out how to represent things as Enigma puzzles, preferably with the minimal amount of lua and player-hidden information possible) \ 1093) <kmc> anyway getting naked and high in the desert doesn't make you a rebel, as much as I enjoy this activity \ 1231) <ais523> do we seriously not do quotes any more? \ 425) <Taneb> So it's like... Rummy mixed with... b
00:49:55 <Antebrationist> What?
00:49:56 <int-e> (What was `spam good for again?)
00:50:13 <shachaf> `` ls -ld ../bin/spam ../bin/n
00:50:17 <HackEso> lrwxrwxrwx 1 1000 1000 4 Jul 8 2017 ../bin/n -> spam \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 1000 1000 206 Nov 16 21:37 ../bin/spam
00:50:26 <int-e> Antebrationist: this channel has quite a few bots, some more noisy than others.
00:50:30 <shachaf> spam was just the original name for n before it was shortened to one letter.
00:50:30 <int-e> shachaf: Ah, thanks.
00:50:43 <int-e> shachaf: So the issue here is that `n loops.
00:50:52 <shachaf> `cbt n
00:50:52 <HackEso> line="${1-$(cat $HACKENV/tmp/spline)}"; len="$(awk 'END{print NR}' $HACKENV/tmp/spout)"; echo -n "$line/$len:"; sed -n "${line}{p;q}" $HACKENV/tmp/spout; echo "$((line<len?line+1:1))" > $HACKENV/tmp/spline
00:51:12 <shachaf> Maybe that's an issue?
00:51:14 <int-e> `? hackeso
00:51:15 <HackEso> HackEso is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike HackEgo.
00:51:16 <shachaf> It was intentional at the time.
00:52:24 <shachaf> OK, this API issue is kind of annoying. This program gives you a path, and what is normally a basename as an offset into that path.
00:52:26 <int-e> Antebrationist: Anyway, esowiki is useful... a) it's interesting to see what topics are currently hot on the wiki b) it enables more timely reactions to spam
00:52:46 <Antebrationist> Yeah. Agreed. Especially on b
00:52:55 <shachaf> The problem is, what it actually gives you is also supposed to be useful for openat(parent_dir_fd, ...)
00:53:12 <shachaf> That's almost the same as a basename except that at the root you want to use AT_FDCWD and a full path instead.
00:53:18 <int-e> Antebrationist: HackEso is more of a swiss army knife (it's a user mode linux sandbox and has grown a rich set of commands, most of questionable use, over time)
00:53:24 <shachaf> What's the solution? Should it give you a basename each time?
00:55:15 <Antebrationist> Ah... That makes sense.
00:56:15 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71647&oldid=71646 * EvilMuffinHa * (+383)
01:01:33 <int-e> Antebrationist: oh and fungot is a chatterbox
01:01:33 <fungot> int-e: am i right? :) imagine if the contents of these fields.
01:01:51 <shachaf> `5 w
01:01:53 <HackEso> 1/1:success//If at first you don't succeed, you fail. \ gazspaczo//gazspaczo iz a hungarian szoup, tradizsonally szerved cold for hot szummer dayz \ tio//TIO is Try It Online!, <https://tio.run/>, a web-based interpreter for over 600 languages, including hundreds of esolangs. \ ginorst//Ginorst is eht Aillpr fo Dgoo Iikw Aaeegmmnnt. \ usa//USA apparently doesn't stand for United State Automaton.
01:02:32 <Antebrationist> Can anybody edit the HackEso to give it commands?
01:02:39 <Antebrationist> Because that seems like a very bad idea.
01:03:42 <shachaf> Only people who are morally pure can.
01:04:00 <shachaf> If you are destined for hell HackEso ignores your commands.
01:04:39 <Antebrationist> Good.
01:08:42 <Antebrationist> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Nothing is weird.
01:08:58 <int-e> Nothing is weird.
01:09:08 <Antebrationist> Lol.
01:10:02 <shachaf> `? sorting
01:10:08 <HackEso> sorting? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:10:31 <shachaf> `dowg ginorst
01:10:33 <HackEso> 10889:2017-05-13 <oerjän> slwd ginorst//s,dg,Dg, \ 10888:2017-05-13 <oerjän> slwd ginorst//s,ai,Ai,;s,ii,Ii,;s,aa,Aa, \ 6636:2016-02-07 <oerjän> learn Ginorst is eht aillpr fo dgoo iikw aaeegmmnnt.
01:11:04 <Antebrationist> What constitutes "morally pure" or "destined for hell"?
01:12:05 <shachaf> Please consult the holy book for more information.
01:12:27 <Antebrationist> The holy book?
01:15:25 <int-e> Antebrationist: "Nothing" is brilliant, it's the pinnacle of declarative programming.
01:15:35 <Antebrationist> Ah.
01:15:48 <int-e> . o O ( I hereby declare the program to be finished. )
01:16:10 <Antebrationist> That's amusing.
01:16:39 <pikhq> `ls
01:16:40 <HackEso> asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ just \ karma \ le \ output.b \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ what.tar.gz
01:17:12 <shachaf> What's with these ridiculous names?
01:17:19 <shachaf> spline? spout? sport?
01:17:21 <shachaf> Come on.
01:17:23 <pikhq> From here, I believe thou can infer the appropriate holy book to consult.
01:17:54 <Antebrationist> Oh, so the character `[linux command] does the job?
01:18:20 <int-e> our spam comes with advanced interpolation and still spouts nonsense.
01:18:25 <pikhq> Not that I will be consulting it, seeing as I live as a blasphemous heathen to each and every religion that there is. 🙃
01:18:35 <Antebrationist> ^
01:19:11 <shachaf> Perhaps the holy book can be listed by the command `list
01:19:12 <int-e> shachaf: I have no explanation for "sport" though.
01:19:23 <shachaf> What about spore?
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01:21:47 <int-e> `` rm *.gz # both asmbf archives, surely the one unpacked one is enough
01:21:48 <HackEso> No output.
01:23:20 <int-e> shachaf: a more pertinent question may be... can't we stuff those files somewhere less visible...
01:23:44 <int-e> `ls -a
01:23:45 <HackEso> ​. \ .. \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ just \ karma \ le \ output.b \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh
01:25:47 <shachaf> int-e: When these things were written they were in tmp/
01:25:58 <shachaf> Not my fault that the current directory was set to tmp later.
01:26:33 <int-e> Yeah, I know.
01:26:50 <int-e> But maybe those files should move with the times :P
01:27:22 <shachaf> Maybe the working directory shouldn't be tmp
01:27:32 <int-e> `pwd
01:27:33 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/tmp
01:28:00 <int-e> But first we'd have to agree on a less visible default temp location. Maybe just a hidden subdirectory here?
01:28:17 <int-e> `url
01:28:18 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/
01:29:55 <b_jonas> what's the problem with the temp files?
01:30:13 <int-e> they show up in `ls
01:30:39 <int-e> now that $HACKENV/tmp is the default working directory
01:31:03 <b_jonas> meh
01:31:22 <int-e> It's not a big deal, more of a blemish.
01:33:55 <shachaf> `? this
01:33:56 <HackEso> This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. Nobody likes this.
01:34:20 <int-e> One could just change the file names to .spline and .spout
01:34:27 <shachaf> Oh no.
01:34:42 <int-e> `cwlprits this
01:34:44 <HackEso> int-̈e oerjän olsnër
01:34:58 <int-e> Yeah I thought I probably added the last bit.
01:36:08 <shachaf> Did I ever mention the time I was talking to a coworker and they said they knew one person who used Gopher?
01:36:22 <shachaf> And then they talked about how that person would always ask "do you like this?".
01:36:34 <pikhq> lmao that's amazing
01:36:50 <int-e> Hah.
01:37:03 <int-e> A simple matter of zzoology.
01:37:58 <shachaf> Hmm.
01:38:06 <shachaf> I should get back to my SAT solver one day.
01:38:16 <shachaf> I don't really know how to do clause deletion nicely.
01:40:18 <shachaf> Also, I have a question about iterators.
01:40:39 <shachaf> I like this iterator style: Iterator it = thing_start(); while (thing_next(&it)) { ... }
01:40:57 <shachaf> Where ... might use it.value or something.
01:41:36 <shachaf> The question is, does this require the type to have more values than the classic style of iteration?
01:42:16 <shachaf> For example with "for (int i = 0; i < n; i++)", the value of i goes between 0 and n, so there are a total of n+1 value.
01:43:21 <shachaf> I guess the first question I should ask is, how would you do simple iteration like that in this style? Starting at a negative number or storing an extra boolean seems scow.
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01:45:49 <shachaf> This specific case doesn't matter much, but it seems kind of annoying to give more complicated iterators an "unstarted" start which I sometimes end up doing.
01:45:56 <shachaf> state
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02:29:56 <int-e> shachaf: What about a standard NULL-terminated linked list?
02:32:19 <shachaf> Yes, that's another case that's similar.
02:32:51 <shachaf> You have n+1 total states for your pointer including the final null. Really this is a better example probably.
02:33:19 <int-e> for (int i = 0; i < n; i++) is amenable to the starting at -1 trick, and then it fits the pattern you want.
02:33:42 <int-e> But for linked lists you don't get a -1 that easily.
02:33:53 <shachaf> And also for pointers.
02:34:21 <shachaf> An array with n values has n+1 total pointers, &a[0] to &a[n], but &a[-1] is undefined behavior in C (and reasonably so).
02:34:28 <int-e> Well, for pointers you could argue that it's really a stupid limitation of C.
02:34:37 <shachaf> Maybe...
02:34:46 <shachaf> Anyway the linked list example is better. What do you do?
02:35:21 <int-e> I suppose you make the iterator look like a list element without a value?
02:35:29 <shachaf> You could add an extra "unstarted" state: struct ListIter { Node *node; bool started; };
02:35:50 <int-e> (I vaguely recall that Knuth has various list head tricks of that sort... I forgot the details.)
02:35:58 <shachaf> Then you can write write ListIter list_start(Node *node) { return (ListIter){.node = node, .started = false}; }
02:36:41 <int-e> *I* would probably not cram linked lists into that iterator style.
02:36:57 <shachaf> I mean, it's unnecessary, certainly.
02:37:05 <shachaf> You can just iterate manually and it works fine.
02:37:16 <shachaf> But I'm trying to figure out how to make it not horrible in simple cases.
02:37:28 <int-e> "not horrible"
02:37:38 <int-e> you're always so opinionated
02:37:47 <shachaf> bool list_next(ListIter *iter) { if (iter->started) { iter->node = iter->node->next; } else { iter->started = true; } return iter->node != 0; }
02:37:59 <shachaf> OK, how to make it elegant rather than mildly annoying.
02:39:48 <shachaf> I don't like this way very much. {.node = 0, .started = true} is the same as {.node = 0, .started = false}
02:39:55 <shachaf> Another option:
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02:40:07 <int-e> Well, my problem with this is... how is the compiler supposed to get rid of the bool and produce the right code (which is the normal for (node *i = begin; i; i = i -> next) ...)
02:40:27 <int-e> (don't ask me why I put spaces around the ->... too much Haskell, I suppose)
02:41:16 <shachaf> Well, really I want this style to work for more complicated kinds of iteration, where I think you have the same problem.
02:41:30 <int-e> Also the simple truth is that I'm so used to the three-part iteration that I don't even find it annoying.
02:41:39 <shachaf> But probably if you inline _next the control flow will be pretty simple?
02:41:44 <shachaf> Let's see, does this work?
02:41:49 <shachaf> struct ListIter { Node *node; Node *next; };
02:42:52 <int-e> (And the real improvement is to make the iterator manipulation implicit. "for (x: list) { ... }")
02:43:39 <shachaf> ListIter list_start(Node *node) { return (ListIter){.node = node}; }
02:44:00 <int-e> sure that isn't .next?
02:44:09 <shachaf> You're right, it's .next
02:44:38 <shachaf> bool list_next(ListIter *it) { it->node = it->next; if (it->node) { it->next = node->next; return true; } return false; }
02:44:44 <int-e> I suppose that works and might be amenable to compiler optimization
02:45:26 <int-e> Looks a bit like SSA style code.
02:46:21 <zzo38> Glulx has a built-in command for dealing with linked lists. I have used linked lists in C too though, as well as Glulx.
02:48:28 <zzo38> I found a implementation of vi for 6502, but it isn't for Famicom (yet), although Famicom keyboard doesn't have any ASCII characters beyond 95 anyways (although nothing stops you from displaying them).
02:49:02 <imode> vi for the 6502? color me interested.
02:49:11 <imode> vim for the 6502 would be an accomplishment.
02:50:53 <zzo38> There is http://vi65.sourceforge.net/ but unfortunately not for Famicom, and I have a Famicom (although not the keyboard for it, nor a cartridge to load my own software in)
02:51:24 <imode> could probably be ported, aye?
02:52:17 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose so.
02:53:25 <zzo38> Unfortunately, no emulator I know of supports separated disk images, even though I said that would be a better feature to have.
02:56:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * HTV04 * New user account
03:07:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71648&oldid=71629 * HTV04 * (+321) /* Introductions */
03:08:18 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71649&oldid=69926 * HTV04 * (+104) Added my optimizing compiler for SmileBASIC 4.
03:09:14 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71650&oldid=71649 * HTV04 * (+3) Fixed typo
03:18:42 <zzo38> ;; Enchantment - Aura ;; Enchant permanent which is attached to another permanent ;; Enchanted permanent has totem armor and cumulative upkeep {1}.
04:40:23 <shachaf> `5 w
04:40:26 <HackEso> 1/2:ronald reagan//Ronald Reagan was an actor so great that he managed to convince the US that he was the President. Then he created the Star Wars project to destroy the Soviet Union. \ snow//Snow is Jesus's dandruffs, and some suspect that he is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen. It turns the sidewalks to white as if someone broke a lot of styrofoam on it. \ structural subtyping//Not to be confused with substructural typing. \ madness//mad
04:40:32 <shachaf> `n
04:40:33 <HackEso> 2/2:ness lies thataway. \ rincewind//Rincewind is a wizzard. He likes potatoes.
04:41:04 <shachaf> `? mad
04:41:05 <HackEso> This wisdom entry was censored for being too accurate.
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05:13:16 * moony completely forgot to work on his VAX emulator today ):
05:13:48 <zzo38> Now will you do it, then?
05:15:35 * pikhq wishes she could still focus on projects like that
05:15:40 <pikhq> A VAX emulator sounds neat
05:34:07 <moony> zzo38: it's midnight
05:34:14 <moony> I am planning to go to bed :P
05:34:38 <moony> Maybe could add some instructions to the instr table but that's about it
05:35:10 <pikhq> It's also the weekend
05:35:27 <pikhq> Mind, you may have plans in the morning.
05:35:36 <pikhq> Sunday morning plans are not that uncommon, I suppose.
05:36:07 <zzo38> Some people go to church on Sunday, but now is not the time to do that, with these virus
05:36:11 <moony> I was planning to support a pseudo-64bit extension as a non-DEC-compliant feature flag, could go add those instr IDs
05:36:19 <shachaf> So a range iterator would look like struct It { int cur, end, value; };
05:36:38 <pikhq> Some churches have been doing video services for their congregation, which seems like a reasonable compromise.
05:36:42 <shachaf> It start(int end) { return (It){.end = end}; }
05:37:13 <moony> #[cfg(feature = "64bit")]
05:37:16 <moony> ADDQ2 = 0xC0FD,
05:37:18 <moony> this is gonna be repeated a lot
05:37:24 <pikhq> Not that I'm a follower of any organized religions myself, but hey, some people are.
05:37:31 <pikhq> 🤷🏻‍♀️
05:37:51 <zzo38> OK
05:38:16 <shachaf> It next(It *it) { if (it->cur >= it->end) return false; it->value = it->cur; it->cur++; return true; }
05:41:49 <shachaf> Can you translate between the two styles?
05:43:40 <shachaf> Aha.
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06:18:01 <esowiki> [[Talk:Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71651&oldid=8186 * IFcoltransG * (+243) /* Binary lambda calculus example */ new section
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06:33:51 <zzo38> Has anyone tried to play Scrabble with JavaScript reserved words worth triple?
06:34:58 <myname> what
06:35:19 <myname> that seems a bit... arbitrary
06:35:32 <zzo38> I think it was mentioned once in xkcd
07:00:49 <zzo38> Maybe I should add a command into TeXnicard for defining your own SQL collations, one use of it can be for the rarity of cards in Magic: the Gathering
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08:14:13 <shachaf> FireFly: HireFly
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12:06:46 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71652&oldid=71425 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* binodu */ fix title
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12:09:18 <esowiki> [[Rhoam Ultimate]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71654&oldid=71638 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) /* See Also */ cats
12:09:30 <esowiki> [[Wrapping Rhoam]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71655&oldid=71639 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) /* See Also */ cats
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12:14:58 <esowiki> [[Number Factory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71656&oldid=54026 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) /* Computational Class */ link
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14:48:31 <orbitaldecay> morning all
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17:03:17 <zzo38> Do you like this idea?
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18:29:11 <esowiki> [[FROM HERE TO THERE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71659 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3442) Created page with "'''FROM HERE TO THERE''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Syntax== Each line has the following syntax (lines can be separated by <code>"\n", "\r\n", "\n ",..."
18:29:15 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71660&oldid=71658 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2410) /* 2 */
18:30:44 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71661&oldid=71642 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* F */ + [[FROM HERE TO THERE]]
18:31:24 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71662&oldid=71579 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+68) /* Languages */
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18:34:17 <PSDW> [ 7 2 3 * 1 8 902345
18:34:17 <j-bot> PSDW: 7 16 2707035
18:34:28 <PSDW> 1234567890 ^ 12345678990
18:34:40 <PSDW> [ quit
18:34:40 <j-bot> PSDW: |value error: quit
18:34:54 <PSDW> [ 1234567890 ^ 12345678990
18:34:54 <j-bot> PSDW: _
18:34:59 <PSDW> [ _
18:35:00 <j-bot> PSDW: _
18:35:36 <PSDW> [ 1 + 4 == 2 + 3
18:35:36 <j-bot> PSDW: 1
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18:37:33 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71663&oldid=71578 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+136) /* FROM HERE TO THERE */
18:38:54 <esowiki> [[FROM HERE TO THERE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71664&oldid=71659 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Computational class] */ typo
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18:54:26 <PSDW> [ 12345 ^ 675
18:54:26 <j-bot> PSDW: _
18:54:31 <PSDW> [ 12345
18:54:31 <j-bot> PSDW: 12345
18:54:35 <PSDW> [ 1234567890
18:54:35 <j-bot> PSDW: 1234567890
18:54:38 <PSDW> [ 12081248139759817359
18:54:38 <j-bot> PSDW: 1.20812e19
18:54:44 <PSDW> [ max
18:54:44 <j-bot> PSDW: |value error: max
18:54:51 <PSDW> [ _14242415135135153125
18:54:51 <j-bot> PSDW: _1.42424e19
18:54:58 <PSDW> [ 1424124.124e2
18:54:58 <j-bot> PSDW: 1.42412e8
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19:04:30 <esowiki> [[42]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71665&oldid=71257 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-5) /* Implications / Speculation verging on the mystical */ typofix
19:05:24 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71666&oldid=71539 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-97)
19:06:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71667&oldid=71666 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+68)
19:06:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71668&oldid=71667 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* A /* B */ C */
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19:47:41 <ArthurStrong> what is this
19:50:22 <shachaf> `? this
19:50:25 <HackEso> This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. Nobody likes this.
19:50:46 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like this?
19:51:08 * ArthurStrong likes the attitude of this channel
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19:56:43 <zzo38> If I say I like this, then they are lying, but if I say I do not like this, then I will have to delete it. Therefore, I don't know.
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19:57:54 <ArthurStrong> zzo38: sounds like Richard Smullyan's puzzle
19:59:10 <zzo38> (Well, either that, or I am nobody.)
20:01:44 <shachaf> Is it mandatory to delete things you don't like?
20:02:33 <zzo38> No, actually is probably better to keep it in case one person likes this, but, they say that nobody likes this, and if that is true then there isn't a point.
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20:41:35 <arseniiv_> there is a point, actually in this line there are nine points over each of “i” letters (silly, they’re called dots, you’d say, but but but but)
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20:48:28 <pikhq> Deletion's hard
20:49:08 <shachaf> From B-trees? That's annoyingly true.
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20:50:24 <pikhq> Data structures get easier if you only have to support adding things. Pity everything's finite.
20:51:35 <shachaf> One trick you can do is not rebalance your B-trees on deletion.
20:51:46 <shachaf> Easy peasy lemon squeezy.
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20:54:15 <Antebrationist8> I've completed the initialization of the Minsky machine, with 5 pointers.
20:55:21 <Antebrationist8> zzo38, is two registers enough for turing completeness?
20:55:30 <zzo38> Antebrationist8: Yes
20:55:38 <Antebrationist8> How so?
20:56:26 <zzo38> I don't know all of the details, but yes it is enough (although one is insufficient).
20:57:10 <shachaf> You can use two registers to simulate a stack, and you can use two registers to simulate four registers.
20:57:30 <Antebrationist8> Ah, okay. That sounds turing complete.
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21:00:34 <Antebrationist8> Wikipedia has a proof.
21:05:40 <Antebrationist8> Why is a Minsky machine a finite-state automaton?
21:07:10 <zzo38> It is easy to see that one register is insufficient.
21:07:36 <Antebrationist8> Yes, but why is a Minsky machine a finite-state automaton if the counters have an infinite number of values?
21:07:46 <zzo38> I don't know?
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21:12:11 <imode> Antebrationist8: a turing machine is also a finite state automaton.
21:12:22 <Antebrationist8> ?
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21:13:38 <imode> so, finite automata aren't automatically in one computational class just because they use finite state automata. what matters is what data structure is paired with your finite state automaton.
21:14:47 <imode> you can pair a state machine with nothing and get what you'd expect: you're only able to store the current state. if you attach a tape, and wire up the transitions to be tape conditions + actions, it becomes a turing machine.
21:15:14 <imode> finite automata are the backbone of control flow. they do not determine how powerful a particular automaton can be. the structure they manipulate does that.
21:16:16 <imode> does that make sense?
21:18:09 <shachaf> jix: whoa, you're a SAT solvulator?
21:18:16 <shachaf> solvulater alligator
21:26:24 <b_jonas> `? solvulator
21:26:25 <HackEso> solvulator? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:26:26 <b_jonas> `? SAT solvulator
21:26:27 <HackEso> SAT solvulator? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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21:36:38 <Antebrationist8> imode, that makes perfect sense. Thank you.
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21:38:00 <imode> no problem.
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22:43:47 <orbitaldecay> Does anyone know of a bf variant already recorded that keeps track of an "indirection level". E.g. { increases indirection by one and } decreases indirection by one, so + becomes {>} and - becomes {<}. Same number of commands, but more expressive power.
22:45:07 <int-e> hmm, [{]
22:50:42 <orbitaldecay> yeah, I thought about that too
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22:52:04 <int-e> orbitaldecay: also what does } do when the level is already 0 :)
22:52:45 <orbitaldecay> haven't thought that far ahead :)
22:52:47 <zzo38> Presumably, nothing, I suppose
22:52:54 <int-e> orbitaldecay: Anyway, it doesn't look familiar to me, for what it's worth. (I have not made a study of brainfuck derivatives.)
22:53:23 <orbitaldecay> I hate adding to bf derivatives because there is such a wealth of them it's hard to believe these ideas haven't already been explored
22:53:50 <orbitaldecay> but like, 95% of them just add redundant commands or are substitutions
22:54:04 <int-e> It's time for a brainfuck derivative ontology :P
22:54:32 <orbitaldecay> I've thought about undergoing the herculanian task of organizing them, but geez
22:54:38 <orbitaldecay> maybe next time I'm out of work
22:54:41 <zzo38> Yes, then you can see if one is done or not.
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22:56:29 <orbitaldecay> And totally off topic, I just learned that "gay tail" has a completely different meaning in the world of dogs
22:57:31 <orbitaldecay> http://www.vetstreet.com/dr-marty-becker/my-dog-has-a-gay-tail-what-does-this-mean
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23:00:10 <int-e> That one could also feature in a spy movie.
23:01:17 <int-e> "As long as it’s wagging, I’m happy. And you should be, too."
23:01:44 <orbitaldecay> hahaha
23:02:49 <orbitaldecay> I really like this indirection idea. You could wrap a normal bf program in {} and have a memory mapped data pointer
23:04:47 <pikhq> How many BF derivatives even are there? Way the fuck too many, at least, but
23:05:16 <orbitaldecay> yeah, way too many
23:07:00 <int-e> pikhq: infinitely many, or close enough that it makes no difference
23:07:27 <shachaf> I've heard of derivatives of regular languages.
23:07:34 <shachaf> Maybe that extends to programming languages?
23:07:51 <orbitaldecay> if that's the case, brainfuck is like the latin of programming languages
23:07:56 <orbitaldecay> millions of little bastardizations
23:08:37 <int-e> shachaf: s/regular//
23:09:05 <int-e> (the point being that it's really an operation on any set of words)
23:10:16 <int-e> It's even relevant for context-free languages, cf. Greibach normal form.
23:12:39 <shachaf> I knew it was more general than regular languages but I wasn't sure how much.
23:12:48 <shachaf> But also if I just said "languages" it would be ambiguous.
23:12:49 <int-e> @metar lowi
23:12:49 <lambdabot> LOWI 032250Z AUTO 11003KT 070V140 9999 OVC070 09/03 Q1019
23:13:16 <shachaf> OK, I see, it's a pretty simple operation.
23:13:48 <int-e> shachaf: Maybe the ambiguity would've made it better? I'm not sure I would've found the alternative meaning ("formal languages" in addition to "programming languages") though... so maybe not.
23:14:08 <shachaf> Why is this called a derivative?
23:15:31 <int-e> I'm not sure. Maybe if you treat words as monomials over a ring you get something similar?
23:21:56 <shachaf> Hmm, looking at how the derivative of a regular expression is computed I guess I can see some similarity.
23:22:48 <pikhq> I feel like there's a difference between "an excessive finite number" and "actually infinite" :)
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23:30:58 <int-e> Hmm, the name seems to be due to Brzozowski (probably) and as far as I can see he didn't motivate the name...
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23:31:28 <int-e> pikhq: an inaccessible natural number is infinite for all intents and purposes ;)
23:31:49 <pikhq> My math degree compels me to disagree.
23:32:15 <shachaf> What's the disagreement?
23:32:25 <int-e> (I think an inaccessible natural number is necessarily a non-standard natural number, and those *are* infinite)
23:32:59 <pikhq> humf
23:33:02 * int-e is dancing on a thin wire.
23:33:29 <pikhq> I'm not sure those really count as "natural numbers" unless you're using a very specialized and unusual definition thereof
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23:34:07 <int-e> A natrual number is an element of a model of the Peano axioms.
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23:34:43 <int-e> (With induction as an axiom schema to make it first order and allow non-standard models :P)
23:35:07 <int-e> pikhq: I think I *can* weasel my way out of this!
23:35:17 <zzo38> As far as I can see the Peano axioms don't have any "inaccessible" natural numbers, since it seems to require that all numbers are reachable
23:35:45 <pikhq> Not if I don't accept your definitions as being commonly-accepted or immediately useful or applicable!
23:36:13 <int-e> zzo38: Well, there's a difference between consistency and omega-consistency...
23:36:36 <zzo38> int-e: Yes, I know, although I fail to see how that is relevant.
23:36:52 <int-e> pikhq: Oh but all I have to demonstrate is that *I* am working with an--ahem--reasonable set of definitions that support my ideas.
23:37:20 <pikhq> Y'know, generally mathematics doesn't work as a debate format.
23:37:42 <int-e> zzo38: It means that the Peano axioms (at least in their first-order logic formulation) are not as strong as you believe.
23:37:56 <pikhq> It's more about working with an already-agreed-upon set of axioms and determining what can be derived from them. :)
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23:38:12 <int-e> pikhq: We're close enough to the foundations to be open to debate.
23:38:28 <zzo38> int-e: O, OK
23:38:38 <shachaf> For what it's worth I read int-e's first sentence that way.
23:38:54 <int-e> pikhq: To my mind, the saving grace of math is not that there is no debate... it is that most of mathematics is detached from these foundational matters.
23:38:54 <shachaf> I mean, I figured "inaccessible" was probably talking about non-standard models.
23:39:22 <pikhq> shachaf: I mean, it *would* have to be.
23:40:14 <pikhq> mostly I'm rejecting the use of a non-standard model as being applicable at all :D
23:40:27 <int-e> pikhq: Where's the fun in that?
23:40:33 <pikhq> I am reasonably sure that the number of Brainfuck derivatives that exists is a 100% bog-standard natural, alas
23:40:38 <shachaf> int-e: But how do you feel about Lawvere theories?
23:40:40 * pikhq shrugs
23:40:47 <pikhq> It's Brainfuck derivatives, they're not fun. :P
23:41:04 <shachaf> A bog-standard natural is either zero or the successor of a bog-standard natural.
23:41:35 <shachaf> What was that set theory that had some sort of predicate like that?
23:41:39 <int-e> pikhq: I'm just arguing in my free time. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpAvcGcEc0k )
23:41:49 <esowiki> [[FROM HERE TO THERE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71669&oldid=71664 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+143) /* Values of y */
23:42:10 <pikhq> I suppose I can't dispute that.
23:43:09 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Charlie0 * New user account
23:43:37 <int-e> pikhq: I might act differently if this was ##math... though I probably wouldn't. This is too much fun :)
23:43:49 <pikhq> hehe :)
23:44:33 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, isn't that how it is work?
23:44:34 <pikhq> Full disclosure, my degree is in applied math specifically; waaay more concerned with the naturals and reals than I am more interesting number systems :P
23:45:03 <shachaf> zzo38: I don't remember the details about this.
23:45:25 <shachaf> Something like ZF, but with an extra predicate -- maybe for things called "standard sets" -- that could only be used in particular ways
23:46:11 <shachaf> Oh, I think it was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_set_theory
23:49:18 <int-e> pikhq: On a different level, I'm not sure that the mathematical model of natural numbers is applicable to the number of Brainfuck derivatives... because that would mean that we would have to draw a line between languages that are mere Brainfuck derivatives and those that stand on their own, and we'd probably also have to produce a complete list of candidate languages. In practice that adds a...
23:49:24 <int-e> ...degree of uncertainty and malleability that makes the number not mathematically well-defined. I'm honestly not sure which branch of philosophy such discussions belong to...
23:49:45 <pikhq> Ontology, I dare say.
23:50:25 <shachaf> Ohnology.
23:50:34 <pikhq> I mean yeah, basically
23:51:04 <int-e> Oh, that is a good start.
23:52:03 <pikhq> Alas, that's a branch of philosophy I haven't much studied.
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23:54:12 <Charlie0> How in heavens do you update the Introductions page?
23:54:27 <Charlie0> I follow every single step but it still won't let me
23:54:32 <pikhq> 🤷🏻‍♀️
23:55:16 <Charlie0> Editing Esolang:Introduce yourself (section)Error: This action has been automatically identified as harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your action was constructive, please inform an administrator of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: require new users to introduce
23:55:17 <Charlie0> themselves
23:55:20 <Charlie0> ???
23:56:09 * pikhq has like one page on the wiki to her name from 14 years ago
23:56:14 <pikhq> Can't help ya there, sorry
2020-05-04
00:00:15 <int-e> Charlie0: hmm, have you tried editing the whole page rather than a section?
00:01:10 <int-e> (I'm guessing what the "(section)" part in that message means.)
00:01:17 <Charlie0> int-e I did not, so I tried that, and it still fails
00:02:17 <int-e> Though, hmm, the instructions say to edit the section.
00:03:44 <int-e> Annoyingly this is hard to test. All I can really say is that we've had a successful introduction today so it should work in principle.
00:04:09 <int-e> (And repeat the instructions, but that's awfully redundant.)
00:07:34 <Charlie0> You know, this isn't worth fixing a typo. Bye
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00:07:59 <int-e> Hrm just as I was trying to figure out what the checks actually are...
00:15:22 <int-e> Oh we can actually see the edit in question... it also changed "Amicloud" to "Amibutt" elsewhere in the page... this applies to *all* of Charlie0's attempts.
00:15:25 <int-e> Odd.
00:18:06 <zzo38> Then that is why it doesn't works, I suppose
00:18:53 <int-e> Yes, obviously... it counts as a removal (of the line being changed) and those are rejected. But how does this happen every single time?
00:19:54 <pikhq> Cloud-to-Butt extension.
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00:21:11 <int-e> pikhq: What a stupid idea.
00:21:21 <int-e> Anyway... this is why, mystery solved. :)
00:21:29 <pikhq> It's literally a joke extension, so hey :)
00:22:00 <int-e> Well the joke just got real and \harmful.
00:22:53 <int-e> I mean, it's kind of okay to do this to normal page contents, but doing it text fields that will be submitted is a terrible idea.
00:23:19 <pikhq> Not wrong
00:24:08 <int-e> https://github.com/panicsteve/cloud-to-butt/issues/55
00:24:27 <int-e> (including the observation that it's not *this* particular extension)
00:27:14 <int-e> I guess the solution for self-diagnosis by Charlie0 would've been to do a "show changes". It would've looked odd (showing a line as changed with no visible difference) but it would've been some clue at least.
00:33:24 <b_jonas> ah, so that's the typo fix
00:34:00 <b_jonas> he wanted to change a typoed butt
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00:43:52 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71670&oldid=71660 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+644)
01:04:38 <zseri> orbitaldecay: brainfuck with indirection, implemented in Rust: https://gitlab.ytrizja.de/zseri/befinde
01:13:54 <shachaf> int-e: It's funny that the (section) edit actually made this more likely to go through.
01:14:01 <shachaf> But I guess not more likely enough.
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01:32:28 <esowiki> [[User talk:Charlie0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71671 * Int-e * (+429) introduction instructions
01:32:59 <int-e> (Maybe they can see that. It can hardly hurt.)
01:33:20 <int-e> . o O ( Now who wants to go through all wiki edits and look for changes of cloud to butt? )
01:34:03 <int-e> shachaf: I'm beginning to think of this as a feature... except for the terrible diagnostics.
01:39:51 <int-e> Did anybody else notice that we lost all interest in Intcode once the AoC event was over?
01:40:05 <int-e> Guess it wasn't all that exciting as a programming language really.
01:41:57 <shachaf> I didn't ever look at it in the first place.
01:42:10 <shachaf> I did write a permutations iterator and now I'm wondering whether there's a better way.
01:47:01 <int-e> Hmm, is it January again?
01:51:41 <b_jonas> `datei
01:51:42 <HackEso> 2020-05-04 01:51:42.272 +0000 UTC May 4 Monday 2020-W19-1
01:51:52 <b_jonas> int-e: ^ no, still month --05
01:53:34 <int-e> `? password
01:53:36 <HackEso> The password of the month is starving for attention.
01:58:15 <shachaf> `dowg password
01:58:17 <HackEso> 12323:2020-04-05 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is starving for attention. \ 12318:2020-03-01 <arseniïv> learn The password of the month was fought for, and stomped on, but it remains unreconciled with \ 12310:2020-02-12 <shachäf> undo 12307 \ 12309:2020-02-12 <int-̈e> revert \ 12308:2020-02-12 <shachäf> learn The password of the month is always set on the 12th of the month. \ 12307:2020-02-01 <Hooloovö0> learn The password
02:10:51 <zzo38> Put a hidden field that says "This field is meant to detect invertent tampering such as changing 'cloud' to 'butt'" and then display an error message if that message has been tampered with.
02:13:22 <esowiki> [[User talk:Voltage2007]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71672&oldid=70184 * Fwander * (-91) Replaced content with "Thanks!"
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02:15:22 <shachaf> Why?
02:47:16 <int-e> zzo38: seems rather pointless; there must be dozens of such plugins for different replacements...
02:49:16 <int-e> (Yes, this partly contradicts what I wrote about considering this a feature. I *am* happy that it caught this particular add-on, but obviously that was due to sheer luck.)
02:51:05 <int-e> So... maybe a more proper check for this kind of add-on would have a hidden input with the whole page to be edited along with the textarea, and check that it's submitted without modifications. That seems to be a lot of overhead though...
02:51:33 <zzo38> Yes, that seems too much of overhead
02:52:28 <int-e> And it's easy to imagine that an add-on would do those edits randomly and then all those measures will be rather futile.
02:52:38 <int-e> So... not worth bothering with.
02:52:44 <zzo38> O, OK.
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05:00:34 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71673&oldid=71174 * YamTokTpaFa * (+7) /* text2pxem.pl */ Recopied and repasted the program name from official blog
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05:03:06 <Antebrationist> zzo38, I am halfway through the ALU for the Minsky Machine.
05:03:28 <zzo38> OK.
05:03:45 <Antebrationist> And I finished the initialisation component.
05:03:58 <Antebrationist> It's all very modular.
05:04:29 <Antebrationist> Initialisation module, data reading module, Addition ALU, Subtraction ALU, character jumper.
05:05:16 <Antebrationist> And I finally have a name - Eldritch.
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05:09:26 <zzo38> I am trying to solve a Magic: the Gathering puzzle at this time.
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05:09:45 <Antebrationist> Okay... MTG is Turing complete.
05:09:52 <zzo38> Yes, I am aware of that.
05:10:01 <Antebrationist> It's cool, isn
05:10:11 <Antebrationist> 't it, that a simple card game can be TC.
05:10:52 <zzo38> I also wanted to see if someone can represent Goldbach's Conjecture or Fermat's Last Theorem as a Magic: the Gathering puzzle.
05:11:07 <Antebrationist> Wow.
05:11:55 <Antebrationist> FLT should be fairly trivial, but Goldbach's Conjecture, while theoretically possible is insanely difficult.
05:12:35 <zzo38> I haven't invented my own new puzzles recently, although I have invented some puzzles some time ago, and I believe they still work with the current rules (although I mentioned what version of the rules they use anyways, just in case).
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05:14:25 <zzo38> I have also started making up my own set of Magic: the Gathering cards. But, how should collector numbers be determined?
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05:20:53 <zzo38> Someone else asked if a Magic: the Gathering puzzle will be made up like Mitrofanov's chess study. I didn't know about until they asked, and then I looked it up on Wikipedia and found it.
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05:49:15 <jix> shachaf: I guess so :D
05:50:16 <shachaf> Maybe I should've asked you all my questions about SAT solvers back when I was trying to figure things out.
05:50:24 <shachaf> At the moment my CDCL solver is on hold.
05:50:54 <shachaf> Last time I was working on it I needed to figure out how to do clause deletion.
05:51:24 <esowiki> [[Padlock]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71674 * RocketRace * (+8) Initial page
05:52:58 <jix> shachaf: I've implemented the multi-tier strategy from https://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-319-24318-4_23 and AFAIK most solvers converged on a variation of that
05:54:19 <shachaf> I was just misreading the output of MiniSAT so I thought clause deletion was much less important than it actually was.
05:56:10 <shachaf> Where is the multi-tier strategy described?
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05:57:18 <shachaf> Is that the chapter by Oh?
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06:22:06 <jix> shachaf: yeah
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06:45:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: collector numbers are assigned sequentially in the set after sorting it first by whether the card appears in randomized booster packs, then by border color (the groups are IIRC devoid, w, u, b, r, g, hybrid, gold, artifact, land, but I'm not certain about the details) then English name
06:46:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: you can use existing sets as an example
06:49:17 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I know what you mentioned, but want to know the other details too
06:50:32 <b_jonas> int-e: we should put control characters including lone lf and crlf, and some invalid utf-8 and other traps into that page :)
07:19:33 <zzo38> Do you like Mitrofanov's chess study?
07:22:20 <shachaf> jix: Oh, I just noticed you linked to the specific paper.
07:22:40 <shachaf> I just clicked on the PDF link and it took me to the entire book so I spent some time searching it for tiers.
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07:43:43 <jix> shachaf: just remembered that I also wrote a short summary of what I did: https://jix.one/refactoring-varisat-4-heuristics/#clause-database-reduction
07:45:56 <jix> (that also explains a few things that Oh's paper probably takes for granted)
07:57:15 <shachaf> Which things?
07:58:07 <shachaf> I see, the glue level is the smallest number of total decisions that's been needed to reach a conflict or unit in the clause? Or something along those lines.
07:58:19 <shachaf> I should probably start by implementing a really simple heuristic for deletion and then jam it up later.
08:03:06 <jix> yeah glue level and clause activities ... I'm not sure into how much detail Oh's paper goes been some time since I read it
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08:10:26 <shachaf> OK. I'll look at this more closely soon.
08:10:28 <shachaf> Thanks!
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09:00:02 <rain1> https://oeis.org/A000001
09:01:28 <shachaf> https://oeis.org/A182105
09:02:22 <jix> https://oeis.org/A003075
09:04:20 <shachaf> Too bad so few terms are given.
09:06:35 <jix> computing two more was hard enough ;)
09:06:37 <zzo38> b_jonas: Do you know how names are sorted?
09:06:47 <jix> took me half a year of fulltime work essentially
09:07:06 <shachaf> jix: Oh, you're cited there.
09:07:12 <shachaf> Good OEIS entry.
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09:07:54 <jix> still need to write the paper on how I did it, but can't find time :(
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09:08:14 <shachaf> Oh, it's recent too.
09:08:17 <shachaf> Neato.
09:14:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know. Wizards is unlikeley to have published those internal procedures, and I haven't tried to reverse engineer them.
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09:24:45 <zzo38> I have a "InnerBorder" column to specify the border, although if it is null, then it will be determined automatically. I should add a procedure into the major template to calculate this; it can then be called by different rendering templates to decide which border to render, and may also be usable by the major template too, in order to decide collector numbers, I suppose.
09:26:48 <zzo38> The values of the "ConvManaCost" and "ColorIdentity" columns are automatically set by the "auto." procedure (meant to be called by the user), and that procedure is also meant to assign collector numbers (I can use the ROW_NUMBER window function), although that part isn't implemented yet.
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09:41:57 <b_jonas> But you can override that for silly stuff like Transguild Courier
09:42:42 <zzo38> Can you describe how that works?
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09:43:15 <zzo38> I do intend to probably allow the card database to contain a user variable which defines how collector numbers are assigned; if it exists, it will use that instead of the default.
09:44:27 <zzo38> (You can also just avoid using the auto. procedure if you want to assign converted mana costs, color identities, and collector numbers manually.)
09:47:53 <zzo38> I looked at Transguild Courier, and if you mean the frame, then you can already override the frame.
09:53:01 <zzo38> O, it look like Transguild Courier is grouped with the artifacts even though it has a gold frame. I also seem to remember that MSE ignores the frame and uses only the mana cost, although I don't know how accurate that is.
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11:05:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, I'm talking about computing the Courier's color and frame. The stupid errata where he had a 5-color color indicator (not representable in print because of the stupid decision that a color indicator is one bullet even for two colors) has been reverted (for a reprint),
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11:06:30 <b_jonas> so the Courier is now omnicolored only because of his characteristic-changing abil. You can't guess his color autom'lly from his mana cost.
11:07:15 <b_jonas> That plus there are cards with devoid.
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11:55:57 <tromp> zzo83: I love Mitrofanov's study!
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12:04:24 <esowiki> [[HGFTSNOA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71675&oldid=71208 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* String indexing */
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14:21:24 <orbitaldecay> zseri: hey, just sent you an e-mail
14:45:17 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71678&oldid=71662 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Languages */
14:46:44 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71679&oldid=71677 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) /* Interpreter in {something ?} */
15:17:30 <zseri> orbitaldecay, you've send me an OpenPGP-encrypted mail (which I was able to decrypt), but didn't send an pubkey to encrypt, and I wasn't able to fetch your key from the keyservers, and I wasn't able to fetch a *currently valid* key via WKD, hm. (all keys retrievable via WKD were expired)
15:18:35 <orbitaldecay> zseri: I did not intend to do that. I'm using protonmail. They must have automatically encrypted it for some reason?
15:19:29 <orbitaldecay> First time I've encountered that
15:21:48 <zseri> I found out that 'indirect BF' would probably require either BigNums or relative addressing (changed it to relative addressing for now). BF seems to have a direct equivalent in indirect BF, but that only works if the initial indirection is zero. Maybe it would be a good idea to add some operation which is able to deterministically and always reset the indirection to zero...
15:21:57 <esowiki> [[&brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71680 * Orby * (+1606) Creating reference bf
15:23:43 <zseri> basically, there are two variants: unbounded cells with absolute addressing; and bounded cells with relative addressing...
15:28:22 <orbitaldecay> zseri: well, I think the model should use unbounded tape and unbounded positive cells with absolute addressing. Implementation can just use a tape of 65536 16-bit unsigned cells, or whatevs. But I think absolute addressing is important.
15:29:56 <orbitaldecay> I can show you the snippets of an implementation in C that I wrote that might make it clearer what I mean
15:30:38 <orbitaldecay> https://paste.forder.cc/ufowonijej.cs
15:30:58 <orbitaldecay> here's the pseudocode
15:33:11 <esowiki> [[&brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71681&oldid=71680 * Zseri * (+54)
15:33:45 <orbitaldecay> Cool
15:34:36 <orbitaldecay> I switched to the *, & syntax because I'm really interested in [*] and I think writing [{] looks really strange
15:36:31 <zseri> relative addressing makes writing programs more complicated, but makes writing interpreters and compilers easier, and practically the pointer doesn't "jump back" to 0 with every indirection on a pre-filled cell (=0), but instead just stays there...
15:37:41 <zseri> maybe it would be possible to build a compiler that transforms programs from one form to the other, which would be really non-trivial to do manually...
15:38:25 <orbitaldecay> I prefer the absolute addressing model, but if you're interested in relative addressing by all means explore it and write about it on the wiki page
15:38:43 <orbitaldecay> Converting between the two could be really hard
15:40:23 <orbitaldecay> A really interesting implementation detail is what happens when you modify a cell that is part of the indirection chain
15:41:20 <zseri> (about converting) yep, but possible as long as no I/O is involved. Would probably require a execution or simulation of the whole thing, tho....
15:41:25 <orbitaldecay> e.g. tape is 1 2 3 0, indirection is 4, data pointer is 0, what does < do?
15:42:10 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71682&oldid=69821 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+37) /* Survey */ + Unary and rearange
15:43:23 <zseri> it would probably set cell 0 = 0, then the selected cell would stay the same... Or have I messed up the indirection count?
15:43:54 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71683&oldid=71679 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-830) /* 2 */
15:43:56 <orbitaldecay> no, I agree
15:44:08 <esowiki> [[Regimin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71684 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1434) Created page with "'''Regimin''' is a minimal 2D Turing-complete esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Program format== The program is expected to be a perfect square. Whitespace is ign..."
15:44:51 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71685&oldid=71661 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* R */ + [[Regimin]]
15:44:53 <orbitaldecay> but ensuring that the interpreter does that correctly is tricky
15:45:14 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71686&oldid=71678 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) /* Languages */
15:45:39 <zseri> it can be archieved by caching the pointer before accessing/modifying the cell.
15:46:52 <orbitaldecay> I think so, I think I've also handled that behavior correctly in the snippet I posted
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16:07:50 <rain1> hello
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16:35:12 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71687 * Zseri * (+2166) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Befinde |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:zseri]] |year=[[:Category:2020|2020]] |typesys=static |memsys=tape-based |dimensions=one-dimensional |cla..."
16:35:34 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71688&oldid=71687 * Zseri * (+0)
16:36:09 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71689&oldid=71688 * Zseri * (+0)
16:36:52 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71690&oldid=71685 * Zseri * (+14) /* B */ +Befinde
16:37:09 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71691&oldid=71689 * Zseri * (+2)
16:46:26 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71692&oldid=71691 * Zseri * (+37)
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17:08:16 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71693&oldid=71692 * Zseri * (+227) /* BF translation */ alternative BF translation
17:30:45 <zzo38> b_jonas: I have actually already thought of devoid and "~ is [colors]" abilities, but only if they are the first ability of the card. Although I think a color indicator is better for that particular use anyways. The frame can already be overridden anyways, although it does affect color identity (which is easier to compute when a color indicator is used instead).
17:37:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: first ability only? could work. Valiant Changeling for some reason has a self type changing ability as non-first ability -- I don't know why they ordered it that way, since that ability acts in all zones
17:37:41 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui/artifact/33f11dfdacc8b9d2 You can see here how color identity is computed. Color indicators (entered as part of the type line) are considered, although abilities currently aren't considered.
17:39:02 <b_jonas> besides devoid cards and Transguild Courier, I think the only card with a characteristic-changing ability that changes its color is Ghostfire
17:39:39 <zzo38> And, actually, considering abilities other than the first probably wouldn't be too difficult to do, anyways.
17:41:02 <b_jonas> Evermind, Ancestral Vision, Wheel of Fate, Living End, and the future sight Pacts are errataed to have color indicators
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17:43:48 <zzo38> Anyways, I am intending this mainly for custom cards, although custom sets can include reprints of official cards too.
17:45:23 <b_jonas> sure, these are existing examples
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17:46:13 <zzo38> Yes, it is good to know, though.
17:47:37 <orbitaldecay> Here's an interesting puzzle. Is &brainfuck tc using only []*& ?
17:47:45 <zzo38> Did you see the file I linked? If there is a mistake in it, then hopefully you can tell me what mistake you found.
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17:56:59 <Sgeo_> Tcl and Elixir are the same language, change my mind.
17:57:45 <Sgeo_> They both use immutable values, but have units of mutability that cannot be garbage collected.
17:57:45 <zzo38> I don't know much about that.
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17:58:31 <pikhq> I don't really know Elixir well enough to say.
17:59:55 <Sgeo_> Erlang?
18:01:44 <zseri> orbitaldecay: I don't think so, because you need at least one non-zero cell to navigate.
18:03:43 <orbitaldecay> *> is sufficient to emulate 3 star programmer
18:04:26 <orbitaldecay> no, I guess you need a loop too
18:04:29 <orbitaldecay> so []*>
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18:25:52 <zseri> It would be quite interesting to implement an 3SP interpreter including the output extension in &bf (easier) or befinde (harder bc relative addressing)...
18:26:27 <orbitaldecay> Does 3SP halt when dereferencing 0?
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18:27:30 <orbitaldecay> what's the halting condition?
18:33:34 <zseri> I would think the halting condition would be something similiar to: no cell changed and no output was produced, both in the last cycle
18:33:50 <zseri> because that means nothing can change anymore.
18:35:02 <zseri> e.g. second cell must be even, all cells should be hashed or such... the translation should reserve some bookkeeping memory for that...
18:35:51 <zseri> It would be cool to write higher level programs in it, or at least have a compiler that transforms higher-level programs into indirect BF...
18:36:38 <orbitaldecay> &bf and befinde should be easy to compile to, 3sp is some next level shit
18:37:12 <orbitaldecay> I have no idea how to do anything constructive in 3sp
18:37:30 <orbitaldecay> I don't think it's even known if it's tc
18:40:41 <zseri> would be cool to compile 3SP -> indirect BF, tho.
18:43:20 <zseri> 1. read number from input 2. select cell 3. apply indirection 4. '>' 5. undo indirection ... the difficult parts are: reserve memory for a hash or parity sum of the other cells and calculate that...
18:44:50 <orbitaldecay> I don't think "no change" is the halting condition. Won't the increment guarantee that there's always a change?
18:47:22 <orbitaldecay> Another language that is probably easy to emulate in &bf and befinde is cyclic tag
18:57:37 <orbitaldecay> Another interesting thought: in &bf < isn't really necessary if there are infinitely many zeros on the tape because you can [>]* to start at the begining of the tape again
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19:05:16 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71694&oldid=71599 * Orby * (+71)
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19:08:37 <zzo38> Do you think this regular expression is suitable for finding characteristic defining abilities which define the color of the card? (^|\n\n)(\~|This [a-z]+) is( (and )?(white|blue|black|red|green|all colors),?)*\.(\n\n|$)
19:09:00 <zzo38> (other than devoid)
19:09:42 <zzo38> O, I forgot "colorless"
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19:38:16 <esowiki> [[&brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71695&oldid=71681 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* See also */
19:38:40 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71696&oldid=71693 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) /* See also */
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19:57:55 <PSDW> [ 52 ^ 34
19:57:55 <j-bot> PSDW: 2.20858e58
19:58:16 <int-e> > 52^34
19:58:19 <lambdabot> 22085827895139816776239946565283164870185114992726805315584
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20:00:16 <b_jonas> `python3 -eprint(float(52)**34, "==", 52**34)
20:00:18 <HackEso> Unknown option: -e \ usage: python3 [option] ... [-c cmd | -m mod | file | -] [arg] ... \ Try `python -h' for more information.
20:00:21 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint(float(52)**34, "==", 52**34)
20:00:23 <HackEso> 2.2085827895139817e+58 == 22085827895139816776239946565283164870185114992726805315584
20:01:23 <int-e> I imagine 52.0 does the trick as well.
20:01:29 <b_jonas> sure
20:01:36 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint(52.0**34, "==", 52**34)
20:01:37 <HackEso> 2.2085827895139817e+58 == 22085827895139816776239946565283164870185114992726805315584
20:02:21 <esowiki> [[&brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71697&oldid=71695 * Orby * (+94) Adding reference implementation
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20:15:27 <zseri> orbitaldecay: befinde has a trivial way to return to the start: [<]; I think *[<]& would be sufficient to let the current cell point at zero; equivalent to 'get me to zero' of (your code in &bf) in Befinde would be *[&>*]
20:17:47 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71698&oldid=71696 * Zseri * (+145) +Patterns
20:18:16 <orbitaldecay> yeah, &bf has a similar construction: wrap your program like "*> program &", then any time inside the program you want to reset the data pointer just do &[*<&]*
20:18:31 <orbitaldecay> it basically memory maps the data pointer to 0
20:21:21 <zseri> In my implementation (and befinde is optimized to be easy to implement) mapping the data pointer even simplified the implementation and made the behavoir more consistent.
20:23:32 <orbitaldecay> yeah, I can see how that would be
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20:24:48 <orbitaldecay> I think your thought of removing indirection from [ and ] is interesting
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20:25:56 <zseri> doesn't make much of a difference, but it is more consistent with the rest of the commands, because no other command has such implicit indirection.
20:26:51 <orbitaldecay> yeah
20:27:01 <zseri> hm, is there a way to reset the indirection back to zero, without invoking UB or crashing the interpreter?
20:27:25 <orbitaldecay> not after [*]
20:28:31 <orbitaldecay> but there's a way of thinking about indirect bf as not needing & at all
20:29:00 <orbitaldecay> you could say * replaces the data pointer with the value of the current cell
20:29:05 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71699&oldid=71698 * Zseri * (+15) /* Useful patterns */
20:29:48 <orbitaldecay> I think there are bf variants that have this command
20:30:33 <orbitaldecay> I think there are a lot of ways of thinking of *>[] as tc
20:30:50 <zseri> but every invocation of that command would make the control flow more difficult, because you could accidentially modify a cell that is part of the dereference chain...
20:31:46 <orbitaldecay> no, I mean eliminate the concept of the chain completely. Instead of having indirection levels, just have * copy the value of the current cell to the data pointer.
20:32:01 <orbitaldecay> no way to reverse it
20:32:29 <orbitaldecay> in some ways this concept is cleaner, or at least easier to implement, but in other ways it's not as nice conceptually
20:33:28 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71700&oldid=71699 * Zseri * (-18) /* Useful patterns */
20:33:31 <orbitaldecay> symbolic brainfuck has this
20:33:50 <zseri> hm.
20:34:56 <esowiki> [[&brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71701&oldid=71697 * Orby * (+25)
20:35:27 <zseri> symbolic bf also has the opposite (something roughly equivalent to &), but without the chaining.
20:35:47 <orbitaldecay> yeah, unfortunately they're not actually inverses of each other in symbolic bf
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20:36:12 <orbitaldecay> *& in symbolic bf doesn't actually restore the original state
20:37:10 <orbitaldecay> I wanted a bf variant with reference and dereference where the operators were actually inverses. If you change the looping construct in &bf to match the looping construct in Reversible BF, then &bf is reversible, too
20:37:45 <orbitaldecay> that's not true of symbolic bf
20:40:02 <orbitaldecay> befinde can also be made to be reversible in the same way
20:41:00 <orbitaldecay> just patch up the looping construct, then to reverse a program just reverse the string replacing [ with ], ] with [, & with *, * with &, > with <, and < with >
20:41:27 <orbitaldecay> very nice property
20:44:40 <zseri> are you sure about [ and ] ? I don't think simple string replacing in the way you described would be enough. You need to keep the branching information. And the indirection makes a correct implementation of the parts which depend on the raw value of a cell more difficult...
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20:46:43 <Antebrationist> Finished subtraction logic unit and ALU, halfway through conditionals/
20:46:53 <orbitaldecay> that's why you need to change the behavior of the loop. Enter on non-zero, loop on zero instead of Enter on non-zero, loop on non-zero.
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20:54:35 <Antebrationist> zzo38?
20:55:06 <Antebrationist> I think I'm nearly ready to publish it to esolangs.org, do you have any tips on formatting or the like?
20:56:35 <Antebrationist> orbitaldecay, does &brainfuck have I/O?
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21:02:57 <orbitaldecay> Nope, up to the implementation but not required
21:03:09 <Antebrationist> Okay.
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21:05:31 <zzo38> Antebrationist: You can read the MediaWiki documentation if you need to know about formatting
21:05:48 <Antebrationist> Thanks, could I have a link to that?
21:07:54 <zzo38> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Help:Formatting
21:08:12 <Antebrationist> Thanks.
21:10:03 <Antebrationist> What is the codeblock?
21:10:49 <Antebrationist> Is it <code></code>
21:11:30 <zzo38> You can add a space at the beginning of each line, is one way
21:11:59 <Antebrationist> Okay.
21:16:09 <fizzie> Hm, I wonder if I should enable the SyntaxHighlight extension. It's been bundled with MediaWiki for quite a while now.
21:16:14 <fizzie> I guess most of our code blocks aren't in any generally known language though. But it allows automated line numbering and highlighting, which might be sometimes useful.
21:17:43 <zzo38> I think not, because I think that such a thing can be done by the user (I also wrote a specification for doing that).
21:29:42 <zzo38> I thought of a idea: Each player chooses a creature, and then each of those creatures gains flanking until end of turn.
21:30:02 <zzo38> (This could also be used with shadow.)
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21:52:31 <moony> zzo38: poke
21:52:44 <moony> you have any advice on getting a working assembler for the VAX?
21:52:53 <zzo38> Unfortunately, I don't know.
21:52:56 <moony> (I've been trying to get 4.3BSD installed in SIMH, but it doesn't seem to like me)
21:53:04 <zzo38> (I have never programmed in VAX)
21:53:07 <moony> aw
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22:23:21 <zzo38> Now I fixed it so that it detects abilities such as "~ is all colors"
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23:47:57 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71702&oldid=71683 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+76)
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23:57:38 <Antebrationist> Is a machine comprised of an infinite number of finite-state automata Turing Complete?
23:58:01 <Antebrationist> I'm thinking an infinite cellular automata of sorts.
2020-05-05
00:00:55 <zzo38> Some cellular automata are Turing complete.
00:03:05 <Antebrationist> Okay. I know that there are 2^256 2d automata, and 2^268435456 3d cellular automata, but what exactly makes a CA turing complete?
00:05:40 <Cale> Antebrationist: The arguments usually involve implementing circuits somehow. Also, there are more cellular automata than that if you consider more states per cell or larger/differently shaped neighbourhoods.
00:07:14 <Cale> Antebrationist: It's basically not easy to check whether any particular cellular automaton is Turing complete, and the manner in which the equivalence is carried out might be different each time.
00:07:41 <Antebrationist> Okay, so there is no known general solution.
00:13:02 <Cale> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8unMqSp0bFY
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00:29:41 <esowiki> [[Hatemath]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71703&oldid=70807 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+57) /* External resources */ cats
00:30:30 <esowiki> [[Poohbear]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71704&oldid=51363 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0)
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00:33:27 <esowiki> [[Poohbear]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71706&oldid=71705 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) Doesnt appear to have a stack
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00:48:48 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71707&oldid=71702 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+82) /* 2 */
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02:19:27 <zzo38> Do you think this is good? http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui/artifact/ea9d27eca03edd9c
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03:17:19 <Antebrationist> zzo38, finished the Minsky Machine.
03:17:32 <Antebrationist> Thanks for all the help.
03:17:46 <Antebrationist> It really helped me to understand the alternate state transitions.
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03:20:31 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71708 * D * (+145) Microcontroller page
03:22:53 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71709&oldid=71708 * D * (+266)
03:24:10 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71710&oldid=71709 * D * (+49)
03:25:17 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71711&oldid=71710 * D * (+144)
03:26:32 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71712&oldid=71711 * D * (+114)
03:27:50 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71713&oldid=71712 * D * (+2)
03:30:23 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71714&oldid=71713 * D * (+125)
03:30:48 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71715&oldid=71714 * D * (+71)
03:33:01 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71716&oldid=71715 * D * (+169)
03:33:27 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71717&oldid=71716 * D * (+62)
03:37:34 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71718&oldid=71717 * D * (+53)
03:37:50 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71719&oldid=71718 * D * (+13)
03:42:28 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71720&oldid=71719 * D * (+73)
03:58:37 <zzo38> I got a PCRE error
03:58:46 <zzo38> I got a PCRE error "internal error: previously-checked referenced subpattern not found (at 39)".
03:59:37 <shachaf> Uh oh.
04:01:03 <zzo38> That is even though I have no back references
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04:01:42 <zzo38> Nevertheless, getting rid of the PCRE_NO_AUTO_CAPTURE option fixed it, somehow.
04:01:43 <Antebrationist> I've used up an A2 sheet of paper planning the Minsky machine, and now I'm just copying it to a text file.
04:02:11 <zzo38> But do you know why it is? The regular expression is: (?<!\[)(\(([^()]++|(?1))+\))(?![^{]*\})
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04:26:49 <moony> I think i'm going to go on a little halting adventure
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04:34:26 <zzo38> Why does Wizards of the Coast use an inconsistent file format for the rules?
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05:27:31 <Antebrationist> zzo38, Here is the sprunge for the unfinished Minsky.
05:27:32 <Antebrationist> http://sprunge.us/zICJfl
05:28:10 <Antebrationist> What do you think so far?
05:28:31 <Antebrationist> It's currently broken, and I've linked a few bits together, but you get the ideas.
05:28:51 <zzo38> I don't know right now.
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05:29:09 <zzo38> (I did look, though)
06:01:43 <zzo38> Why does aplay have a assertion error if it is interrupted after the music has finished?
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09:27:29 <shachaf> `5 w
09:27:33 <HackEso> 1/1:study//A study is mostly useless until backed up by further studies. See studies. \ `whoops//`whoops is a repluralizer. \ gentlebeing//A gentlebeing is a gender and species neutral gentleman. \ xyzzy//Nothing happens. \ stephen wolfram//Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
09:27:45 <shachaf> `? studies
09:27:46 <HackEso> Studies show lots of things. Nobody reads them, though. Also: this study contradicts this other study. These two studies agree, but were secretly paid for by the same company.
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11:57:38 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71721&oldid=71720 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+34) format + typo
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12:57:22 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71723&oldid=71700 * Zseri * (+184) /* Useful patterns */ increment all cells until we find the pointer
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12:57:54 <zseri> I think in befinde, some loop "against" the indirection count would be nice...
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13:24:00 <esowiki> [[HGFTSNOA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71724&oldid=71675 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+141) /* Fibonacci numbers until variable t (finish) (help in InfiniteGoto interpreter) */
13:44:36 <orbitaldecay> zseri: could you elaborate? like a loop that checks the indirection count as a condition?
14:02:17 <zseri> yes.
14:08:30 <zseri> that is needed because there is no other way to check the indirection count without possibily causing UB or crashing the interpreter (I don't really want commands that silently 'do nothing' because then reverse operations could do unintended stuff)...
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15:14:17 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71725&oldid=71707 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* 2 */
15:14:30 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71726&oldid=71725 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* Calling */
15:18:57 <orbitaldecay> You could just code so that the data pointer is always 0, that way when you do [&] it breaks out of the loop when the level of indirection is 0
15:19:43 <orbitaldecay> that doesn't work in &bf, but it works in befinde
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15:20:42 <zseri> nope, it doesn't, because you would need to know where the cell 0 is, to decrement it to zero before [&].
15:20:55 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71727&oldid=71726 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+60) /* 2 */
15:21:44 <zseri> And you *need* a data pointer != 0 to be able to access cells different than cell 0.
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15:25:32 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71728&oldid=71723 * Zseri * (+138) /* Commands */ while(indcnt)
15:26:55 <orbitaldecay> *>>*>&
15:27:04 <orbitaldecay> the data pointer is always 0, but you increment cell 2
15:27:34 <orbitaldecay> unless you're doing something way different from what I'm doing
15:27:53 <orbitaldecay> oh that's right, you're memory mapping your data pointer
15:27:54 <orbitaldecay> hmm
15:28:13 <orbitaldecay> yeah that's problematic
15:30:04 <zseri> I modified my befinde interpreter, so that loops can access variables "out-of-bounds" (e.g. negative cell positions), but only in the loop condition, they always terminate the loop...
15:31:20 <zseri> I have no idea if that has any benefit... Maybe one could set _[0]=1; _[1]=-x or such...
15:34:46 <zseri> (it has one benefit: some programs run a few more stmts before panicking)...
15:44:53 <esowiki> [[&brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71729&oldid=71701 * Orby * (+566) Documenting reversible variant
16:10:52 <esowiki> [[&brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71730&oldid=71729 * Orby * (+237)
16:48:47 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71731&oldid=71727 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+181) /* 2 */
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17:24:18 <esowiki> [[XENBLN/Commands]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71732&oldid=71048 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) link
17:25:27 <esowiki> [[XENBLN/Commands]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71733&oldid=71732 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) Update
17:26:21 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71734&oldid=71049 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+76) /* Commands */
17:31:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71735&oldid=71722 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-56)
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17:32:35 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71736&oldid=71731 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+596) /* 3 */
17:33:23 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71737&oldid=71736 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+34) /* Builtins */
17:33:54 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71738&oldid=71737 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) /* Examples */
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18:25:21 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71739&oldid=71738 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1113)
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18:34:55 <rain1> Has there been any updates on picofuck?
18:35:32 <orbitaldecay> rain1: there haven't been. I've been playing around with some different ideas
18:35:47 <orbitaldecay> specifically &brainfuck
18:36:02 <orbitaldecay> any progress on your side?
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18:36:43 <rain1> nothing more than what I said the other day
18:36:52 <rain1> what did you mean by "&brainfuck"
18:37:06 <rain1> the problem is very interesting and i want to work on it more
18:37:11 <orbitaldecay> https://esolangs.org/wiki/%26brainfuck
18:37:27 <orbitaldecay> I also find the picofuck problem very interesting and want to work on it more
18:37:50 <orbitaldecay> I have kind of a fuzzy idea for a potential way to get picofuck to work
18:38:27 <rain1> aha that is a wonderful idea
18:38:31 <rain1> reference brainfuck
18:38:39 <rain1> Cool! Good luck!
18:38:56 <orbitaldecay> if one instruction incremented a counter, and the other instruction was an interpreter that executed the instruction referenced by the interpreter, it might be kind of a cheaty way to get it to work
18:39:22 <orbitaldecay> so, writing an rbf self interpreter might be a start
18:42:10 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/XShell]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71740 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1518) Created page with "=Pyvix= '''Pyvix''' is an esolang usable by the XShell operating system (XOS). ==Learn by examples== ===Hello World=== get_os().exec("echo Hello World") Or: get_os().cmd("e..."
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18:46:12 <orbitaldecay> I need to finally write an rbf interpreter
18:46:39 <orbitaldecay> Semordnilap is basically the same language and I've written an interpreter for that
18:51:27 <orbitaldecay> rain1: I have an idea for picofuck. I will type it up on the discussion page now.
18:52:14 <orbitaldecay> oh, I see you are already thinking along the same lines I am
18:52:24 <orbitaldecay> let me digest what you've written
18:55:51 <orbitaldecay> wait, are you salpynx on the wiki?
18:57:31 <rain1> no
19:01:40 <esowiki> [[Unary Filesystem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71741&oldid=71627 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Command language */
19:01:56 <esowiki> [[Unary Filesystem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71742&oldid=71741 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-9)
19:02:55 <esowiki> [[Unary Filesystem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71743&oldid=71742 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30)
19:07:13 <orbitaldecay> Hmm, I wonder if they hang out on IRC. Have you read their comments?
19:08:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71744&oldid=71549 * Orby * (+1320)
19:09:07 <esowiki> [[User talk:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71745&oldid=59140 * Orby * (+142)
19:09:24 <esowiki> [[User talk:Salpynx]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71746&oldid=71745 * Orby * (+69)
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19:13:50 <int-e> Hmm. I think this was the last time they were here: https://esolangs.org/logs/2020-02-05.html#ljc
19:14:57 <orbitaldecay> thanks!
19:15:09 <orbitaldecay> I left a message on their talk page, hopefully we get to catch up
19:18:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71747&oldid=71744 * Orby * (+327) /* More ideas in the Salpynx vein */
19:22:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71748&oldid=71747 * Orby * (+401) /* Discussion */
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19:26:24 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71749&oldid=71586 * Orby * (+48) Changing equivalence back to isomorphism
19:28:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71750&oldid=71748 * Orby * (+441)
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19:41:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71751&oldid=71750 * Orby * (+574) /* More ideas in the Salpynx vein */
19:46:38 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71752&oldid=71694 * Orby * (+30)
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19:59:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71753&oldid=71751 * Orby * (+609) /* More thoughts on isomorphism */
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20:12:51 <moony> Took long enough. https://i.imgur.com/DsaxQdn.png
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20:22:46 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Stub]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71754&oldid=71244 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4)
20:25:17 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71755&oldid=71739 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+784)
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20:44:01 <orbitaldecay> this picofuck problem is driving me completely up a wall
20:45:16 <orbitaldecay> and I don't think anyone is on who is interested in talking about it
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20:49:53 <moony> orbitaldecay: hm?
20:50:07 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71756&oldid=71749 * Orby * (-35) Rewording for brevity
20:50:24 <moony> oh, i probably can't even help now that I look
20:50:26 <moony> sorry
20:50:52 <orbitaldecay> No worries. It's a tricky problem.
20:51:55 <zzo38> What problem is that?
20:53:21 <orbitaldecay> picofuck
20:53:36 <orbitaldecay> 2 command "simple translation" of reversible bitfuck
20:53:53 <orbitaldecay> a hypothetical language that I still haven't proven or disproven the existence of
20:54:36 <orbitaldecay> I spent some time thinking about it in 2017 and recently revisited the idea
20:56:31 <zzo38> OK
20:58:19 <esowiki> [[Nanofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71757&oldid=71589 * Orby * (-1) /* Definition */
20:58:42 <esowiki> [[Nanofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71758&oldid=71757 * Orby * (-67) /* Machine */
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21:25:58 <kspalaiologos> I wonder, is there a general consensus does one need a license or permission to own a trebuchet or a ballista
21:26:22 <kspalaiologos> What about using them, is there a country where siege weapons are legal?
22:05:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71759&oldid=71753 * Orby * (+1466) /* More thoughts on isomorphism */
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22:14:24 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Emerald * New user account
22:23:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71760&oldid=71648 * Emerald * (+192) /* Introductions */
22:24:55 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71761&oldid=71760 * Emerald * (+11) /* Introductions */
22:28:25 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71762 * Emerald * (+151) Made the page
22:37:44 <esowiki> [[Dig]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71763 * Emerald * (+159) Made page
22:39:12 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71764&oldid=71763 * Emerald * (+10) Fix category
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22:57:25 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71765&oldid=71756 * Orby * (+869) Providing examples. Generalizing definition.
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23:01:59 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71766&oldid=71765 * Orby * (+162) injective and surjective
23:02:42 <zzo38> The effective use of rainbow energy in Pokemon card: http://zzo38computer.org/img_1D/rainbowenergy0.png
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23:18:29 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71767&oldid=71766 * Orby * (+1362) /* Examples */
23:21:54 <zzo38> Do you like Pokemon card?
23:25:15 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71768&oldid=71767 * Orby * (-3) /* Another example */
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23:31:49 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71769&oldid=71768 * Orby * (-107) /* Another example */ Fixing error
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23:53:32 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71770&oldid=71769 * Orby * (+79)
23:53:58 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/2001]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71771 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+860) Created page with "'''2001: An Esolang Odyssey''' is a programming language for HAL 9000 computers developed by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Syntax== When HAL executes a 2001 program, he..."
23:54:37 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/2001]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71772&oldid=71771 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31)
2020-05-06
00:09:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71773&oldid=71759 * Orby * (+119) /* More ideas in the Salpynx vein */
00:09:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71774&oldid=71773 * Orby * (+1) /* More ideas in the Salpynx vein */
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00:12:15 <orbitaldecay> man, I feel for the schizophrenic guy who hangs out in #osdev
00:12:34 <orbitaldecay> he just spouts psychotic nonsense about bitwise operations to no one
00:14:57 <int-e> . o O ( can you paste an example? )
00:17:22 <orbitaldecay> https://paste.forder.cc/caqosotezu.coffeescript
00:18:42 <orbitaldecay> he's been going on like this for 30 minutes to himself
00:19:53 <imode> oof.
00:20:06 <imode> probably a bot?
00:20:52 <orbitaldecay> no, it's an actual person. they were having a conversation with someone the other day who was egging them on. it was really sad.
00:21:23 <imode> that's impressive, because it fooled me.
00:21:34 <int-e> fungot: luckily we're all nice people and would never do that to you
00:21:34 <fungot> int-e: hm. i wonder if i'd have access through the ( other) uni as well. 5 phases/ passes. phase 5 being the target emitter. just add counters to sum the value 30 fnord e fnord
00:22:05 <int-e> imode: I thought it was a bit too coherent on the technical side to be a bot.
00:22:06 * pikhq pets fungot, her favorite fungot
00:22:06 <fungot> pikhq: a semi-normal assembly like language
00:22:14 <pikhq> :3
00:22:39 <int-e> then again what do I know about the state of the art in chat bots...
00:22:44 <int-e> (very little)
00:22:52 <int-e> (I still think fungot is impressive :P)
00:22:52 <fungot> int-e: it requires that the input string
00:23:07 <int-e> And fungot is not even context-aware.
00:23:07 <fungot> int-e: i've seen a lot of people who use the api, but that is very odd.
00:23:09 <orbitaldecay> well, if it is a chat bot it's doing a remarkable job of imitating a schizophrenic person on irc
00:23:19 <imode> fnord e fnord.
00:24:02 <pikhq> this does seem easier than imitating someone without
00:24:47 <imode> some day I'll probably get to that stage, if I'm not there already.
00:25:18 <pikhq> You have seemed coherent, at least
00:26:10 <orbitaldecay> it's like that chat bot that "passed the turing test" by pretending to be an 8 year old Ukrainian boy with limited command of english
00:26:27 <imode> if you lower your standards, everyone's coherent!
00:26:52 <int-e> if you lower your standards, everyone's coherent!
00:27:26 * pikhq shrugs
00:27:46 <int-e> > map length ["imode", "int-e", "pikhq", "eliza"]
00:27:49 <lambdabot> [5,5,5,5]
00:27:55 <imode> hahahahahahahaha.
00:28:00 <pikhq> :D
00:28:31 <imode> three disjoint personalities, one chatbot.
00:29:58 <pikhq> this would be a shocking way to find out about being plural or something
00:30:04 <pikhq> i think my wife would be shocked, too
00:30:11 <orbitaldecay> hahaha
00:32:25 <sebbu> "Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana."
00:42:01 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/2001]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71775&oldid=71772 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+403)
00:44:33 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/2001]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71776&oldid=71775 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+294) /* Instructions */
00:44:46 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/2001]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71777&oldid=71776 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* Instructions */
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01:36:38 <esowiki> [[Padlock]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71778&oldid=71674 * RocketRace * (+5773) Document Padlock
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01:39:27 <esowiki> [[Padlock]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71779&oldid=71778 * RocketRace * (+155) Categorize the page.
01:41:25 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71780&oldid=71486 * RocketRace * (-1) Fix a typo
01:44:14 <esowiki> [[Padlock]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71781&oldid=71779 * RocketRace * (+204) Document alternate ASCII symbols
01:45:57 <esowiki> [[Padlock]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71782&oldid=71781 * RocketRace * (+10) Fix a typo
01:47:24 <esowiki> [[Padlock]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71783&oldid=71782 * RocketRace * (+8) Fix a typo
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03:59:38 <zzo38> Why does the average temperature of my computer seems to be increasing slowly over time? Now it says 34 Celsius; it used to be less. Is that due to dust, or weather, or etc? I also have a temperature with the room temperature; while opening the window cools the room, it doesn't seems to affect the computer so much.
04:09:42 <imode> ambient average temperature is not constant.
04:09:54 <imode> the thermodynamics of your room and home are in constant flux.
04:13:20 <pikhq> and even if there's a thermostat that tries to keep the room's temperature constant, that's a bang-bang controller with pretty slow responsiveness
04:13:40 <pikhq> (but it's fine because hardly anyone complains about small deviations in temperature throughout the day)
04:15:09 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4_6e5IaQXM
04:16:41 <pikhq> :)
04:17:58 <pikhq> exactly that, really
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04:36:47 <Sgeo__> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_BitMap
04:36:49 <Sgeo__> Why.
04:37:28 <Antebrationist> That's just straight up weird.
04:37:50 <pikhq> Because some old-school X apps legitimately _do_ use it to just #include some graphics.
04:38:06 <Antebrationist> Holy cow. That's weird.
04:46:23 <pikhq> The world is filled with some now-odd things because the problem constraints now do not even slightly match the problem constraints 30 years ago.
04:46:33 <Antebrationist> Agreed.
04:46:46 <Antebrationist> Debugging legacy code is insanely hard.
04:47:45 * pikhq cries in professional COBOL experience
04:47:53 <Antebrationist> ^
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04:55:06 <Antebrationist> I originally got into esolangs, because some guy at my company had decided to write one.
04:55:16 <Antebrationist> He wrote all our code in it.
04:55:23 <Antebrationist> Needless to say, he didn't like the bosses.
04:55:28 <pikhq> Oh dear, that is kinda rough.
04:55:44 <Antebrationist> Mhm.
04:55:45 <pikhq> I just got into it initially because I was a kinda outcast nerd in high school.
04:56:23 <pikhq> And doing stupid shit with computers was a nice escape from A) high school B) personal life shit
04:56:44 <Antebrationist> Yeah. That's what got me into programming.
04:57:43 * pikhq just really took to computers as a young girl; go figure
05:03:14 <Antebrationist> Here's a block of his code:
05:03:15 <Antebrationist> FkKmd0YUXh
05:03:34 <Antebrationist> It's a function for adding one to a hex number.
05:03:55 <Antebrationist> He left no documentation.
05:04:00 <imode> what language.
05:04:29 <Antebrationist> idk
05:04:50 <Antebrationist> I was just wondering if you recognised it from anywhere.
05:07:14 <pikhq> That is very odd to me. And like... Not useful at all.
05:07:32 <pikhq> Ew
05:08:15 <Antebrationist> All of the strings are the same length.
05:08:22 <imode> is that like a function name or..
05:08:40 <Antebrationist> It's the actual code.
05:09:03 <imode> that I doubt.
05:09:22 <imode> define "adding one to a hex number".
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05:09:34 <imode> guess I'm never getting my answer.
05:10:32 <pikhq> I'm gonna guess that similar to COBOL, "hex numbers" are a distinct data type within this madness.
05:11:08 <imode> "He wrote all our code in it." doesn't seem that believable. I can believe someone using Mouse.
05:11:21 <imode> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Mouse
05:11:44 <imode> but there's nothing contextual about that snippet of code. there are no distinct operations.
05:12:50 <imode> an esolang can look like garbage but there's still some form of interpretation, and if this was used for some actual application, I'd expect it to look like a fragment of K, J or an APL-like.
05:13:08 <imode> could understand if it's a method name. hungarian notation exists.
05:16:19 <int-e> it could be a language like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Microscript
05:17:05 <int-e> But there's no obvious structure (I think), so it's basically impossible to guess.
05:17:16 <imode> "all our code" implies that this was used for either lots of small scripts or large structures.
05:17:49 <imode> both of which I have a hard time believing.
05:18:03 <imode> neat lang tho, wasn't aware of it.
05:18:15 <int-e> alternatively, this could follow some obscure naming convention like the lapack function names :P
05:19:54 <int-e> @metar lowi
05:19:55 <lambdabot> LOWI 060450Z AUTO 10005KT 9999 BKN010 07/05 Q1020
05:19:57 <int-e> (brr)
05:20:07 <shachaf> @metar koak
05:20:08 <lambdabot> KOAK 060453Z 27018KT 10SM FEW008 SCT010 BKN200 16/11 A3018 RMK AO2 PK WND 26026/0400 SLP219 T01560111
05:20:13 <imode> @metar ksea
05:20:14 <lambdabot> KSEA 060453Z 23015G20KT 10SM SCT065 BKN100 15/09 A3005 RMK AO2 SLP181 OCNL LTGIC DSNT E T01500094
05:20:19 <imode> z o i n k s
05:20:23 <shachaf> 16? so cold
05:20:35 <shachaf> The weather has been pretty nice out.
05:20:35 <int-e> warmer than 7
05:20:42 <shachaf> Too bad I never go outside anymore.
05:20:55 <shachaf> Tomorrow it'll be 27° apparently.
05:21:01 <int-e> I have to brave it.
05:21:15 <shachaf> Uh oh.
05:21:51 <int-e> well I could wait a few hours
05:22:05 <imode> it's thundering right now.
05:22:21 <int-e> But I'm basically out of food, and also the hose in my shower broke so I should buy a replacement.
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05:22:59 <int-e> (And I'm kind of lucky that this didn't happen last month when only grocery stores were open.)
05:26:00 <shachaf> Man, you'd be hosed.
05:28:13 <j4cbo> @metar KMSO
05:28:13 <lambdabot> KMSO 060453Z AUTO 00000KT 10SM CLR 11/00 A3010 RMK AO2 SLP195 T01110000
05:28:37 <j4cbo> severe VFR
05:43:56 <zzo38> I have written programs to read and write X bitmap format, as well as X pixmap format (xpm format 2 is not supported by any other program I have tried, but format 1 and 3 are more commonly supported)
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05:51:29 <zzo38> My program optionally allows the words "static" and/or "unsigned" at the beginning (although "const" currently isn't supported), and numbers can be written in octal, decimal, or hexadecimal.
05:53:06 <zzo38> Comments are also allowed.
06:08:11 <shachaf> Is the default octal, decimal, or hexadecimal?
06:08:26 <shachaf> I guess hexadecimal would be the most sensible default because it has the most digits.
06:09:32 <zzo38> I think it is hexadecimal default
06:11:42 <zzo38> The program I wrote for writing X bitmap format is hexadecimal only, and some programs I have tried assume the numbers are hexadecimal even if it isn't.
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06:19:42 <Antebrationist> Okay, more info on his code.
06:20:57 <Antebrationist> As requested. Hex numbers are a distinct data type, which he implemented as a String. Apparently, he made a program to compile stuff into it, so at least 8 lines of that was just method.
06:21:15 <Antebrationist> It's used for lots of small scripts.
06:21:26 <shachaf> `5 w
06:21:30 <HackEso> 1/3:firefly//FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon. It's also a room whose gimmick is that it gets darker as you kill the enemies. \ sex//Sex is a board game which originated in Britain in the 1870s before spreading throughout Europe in the 1890s. Sex was introduced to the rest of the world by a book, "The Complete Guide to Sex", written
06:21:39 <shachaf> `n
06:21:40 <HackEso> 2/3: and published in 1932, based on the author's extensive experience with a wide variety of forms of European sex. \ bfjoust//bfjoust is a spamming tool for #esoteric. \ tetris//Tetris is where Soviet Russia was invented. Taneb was not present although Triangle and Robert were. \ hppavilion//hppavilion is the generator including, but not limited to, hppavilion[1], hppavilion[2], and hppavilion[42]. hppavilion is of length 37-42i-28j+4k
06:21:47 <shachaf> `n
06:21:48 <HackEso> 3/3:-28ij+38ik+62jk+20ijk. A common alternative definition is the set of all items yielded by the general case of the generator. Not to be confused with hppavilion^k or hppavilion_m.
06:21:50 <Antebrationist> Adding 1 to a hex number: just incrementing it by 1.
06:22:03 <Antebrationist> shachaf, is HackEso a markov chain bot?
06:22:19 <shachaf> Who can say?
06:23:19 <zzo38> HackEso is a bot to run arbitrary programs. If there is a Markov program in there, then it will do that too, but that isn't what `5 w and `n do.
06:23:35 <Antebrationist> Okay. So what do they do?
06:23:42 <shachaf> `n could print the output of a Markov chain program.
06:25:22 <zzo38> Yes, but that isn't what it does; it just displays the contents of another file which the other program may add the output to.
06:25:31 <Antebrationist> Okay.
06:28:29 <zzo38> I can believe that he may have written some code using the programming language you mentioned, although I would not know much about it so do not know much without the context.
06:28:40 <int-e> okay that's the shower fixed
06:28:49 <Antebrationist> Not everything was in it.
06:28:55 <Antebrationist> Just small methods and whatnot.
06:29:13 <zzo38> Yes, it is what I would probably expect; not everything.
06:30:03 <Antebrationist> He was one of those people who splits everything into subroutines. Except that he would then write those subroutines in this abomination.
06:31:11 <Antebrationist> As I said earlier, he auto-generated function and method names, which makes a lot more sense.
06:33:01 <zzo38> OK
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06:34:29 <shachaf> Man.
06:34:41 <shachaf> What's a simple and neato algorithm thing I don't know about?
06:34:53 <zzo38> I don't know?
06:35:06 <Antebrationist> The doomsday algorithm by John Conway?
06:37:23 <shachaf> I didn't know it but I don't care about the Gregorian calendar very much.
06:38:08 <zzo38> Why you don't care about the Gregorian calendar very much?
06:38:16 <zzo38> Which system do you think is better?
06:38:34 <Antebrationist> I mean, the Shire calendar from LOTR is pretty good.
06:39:06 <zzo38> I like the solar hijri calendar.
06:39:36 <shachaf> It's only relevant for one planet out of trillions.
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06:40:27 <zzo38> Yes, although in a different planet I should think you would need a different calendar would be better.
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07:07:05 <Antebrationist> Could you explain in more detail how HackEso works?
07:09:47 <zzo38> It just runs programs; you can use ` followed by the name of a program in order to execute that program. The programs can be shell scripts or scripts in other programming languages, or compiled programs in C or whatever.
07:10:21 <Antebrationist> Is there a list of available programs?
07:11:39 <zzo38> You can also run any UNIX commands, by prefixing `` or ``` followed by a space and then the command (which can also be any of the programs that are installed).
07:11:53 <zzo38> There is also a Mercurial repository that you can see all of the files with.
07:12:01 <zzo38> Then you can know what is available.
07:12:11 <zzo38> Actually I think there is a article in esolang wiki about it.
07:12:25 <Antebrationist> So, something like ` ls would list all of the files?
07:13:11 <zzo38> ``` ls
07:13:12 <HackEso> asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ just \ karma \ le \ output.b \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh
07:15:55 <zzo38> Why does <SPAN CLASS="m2"> appear a different colour in Lynx?
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08:04:11 <Antebrationist54> Hello.
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08:10:47 <Antebrationist54> Hello.
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11:46:03 <esowiki> [[Padlock]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71784&oldid=71783 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Computational Class */ link
11:49:24 <esowiki> [[Computational class]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71785&oldid=64156 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) /* Turing-completeness */ bsm
11:50:46 <esowiki> [[DINAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71786&oldid=70554 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* Subpages */
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12:29:08 <psdw> ``` ls
12:29:09 <HackEso> asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ just \ karma \ le \ output.b \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh
12:29:35 <psdw> cat banana.txt
12:29:40 <psdw> ``` cat banana.txt
12:29:41 <HackEso> Bananas taste good and have potassium, but they bruise kinda easily. I still like to eat them though :)
12:29:50 <psdw> cat program
12:29:52 <psdw> ``` cat program
12:29:53 <HackEso> ​ELF............>.....H......@.......h..........@.8..@.. \ .......@.......@...............P.......P................................................................................................(......(........ ...................... .............(......(........ ................... .............p.......p...............Qtd.................................................../lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.1000............
12:30:01 <psdw> ``` cat test.sh
12:30:07 <HackEso> tar -xzf v1.1.1.tar.gz \ cd asmbf-1.1.1 \ make all install
12:30:24 <psdw> ``` cat output.b
12:30:26 <HackEso> ​+>+[<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<]<<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]<<<[-]>[-]>>]<<]
12:30:49 <psdw> ``` bf output.b
12:30:50 <HackEso> ​.
12:30:55 <psdw> ``` brainf output.b
12:30:56 <HackEso> bash: brainf: command not found
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13:09:36 <orbitaldecay> morning all
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13:27:36 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71787&oldid=71764 * Emerald * (+17)
13:28:28 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71788&oldid=71787 * Emerald * (+12)
13:29:22 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71789&oldid=71788 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-13)
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13:48:49 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71790&oldid=71770 * Orby * (-1) Correcting wording
13:49:29 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71791&oldid=71686 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+104)
13:52:47 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/2001]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71792&oldid=71777 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+429)
13:57:52 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71793&oldid=71790 * Orby * (+121) Expanding on definition of isomorphism
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14:07:14 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71794&oldid=71793 * Orby * (+218)
14:07:48 <orbitaldecay> hey rain1, how are you?
14:09:28 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/2001]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71795&oldid=71792 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+209) /* Instructions */
14:13:16 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/2001]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71796&oldid=71795 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+425) /* Instructions */
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14:15:21 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71797&oldid=71183 * Orby * (+274)
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14:24:12 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71798&oldid=71721 * D * (+2)
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14:27:00 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/2001]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71799&oldid=71796 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2928) /* Examples */
14:27:23 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71800&oldid=71789 * Emerald * (+706) Gave an idea of what this will be
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14:28:14 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71801&oldid=71800 * Emerald * (+17) Added correct year
14:28:30 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71802&oldid=71794 * Orby * (+280)
14:33:15 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/2001]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71803&oldid=71799 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+810) /* Computational class */
14:33:58 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/2001]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71804&oldid=71803 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-6392) Blanked the page
14:34:12 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71805&oldid=71802 * Orby * (-85) Adding abbreviations for brevity
14:34:18 <esowiki> [[2001: An Esolang Odyssey]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71806 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6432) Created page with "'''2001: An Esolang Odyssey''' is a programming language designed to be executed by HAL 9000 computers. It was developed by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Syntax== When H..."
14:35:12 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71807&oldid=71690 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) /* Non-alphabetic */
14:36:24 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71808&oldid=71791 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+112) /* Languages */
14:40:54 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71809&oldid=71805 * Orby * (-9)
14:44:07 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71810&oldid=71809 * Orby * (-1) /* Trivial simple translation */
14:46:40 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71811&oldid=71762 * Emerald * (+65) Made a Language list
14:47:04 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71812&oldid=71810 * Orby * (-33) little typos everywhere
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14:54:05 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71813&oldid=71801 * Emerald * (+73) added command
14:55:07 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71814&oldid=71813 * Emerald * (+15) Fixed oopise
14:55:53 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71815&oldid=71814 * Emerald * (+2) Fixed fix that didnt work
15:01:51 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71816&oldid=71815 * Emerald * (+151)
15:03:20 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71817&oldid=71812 * Orby * (+163)
15:10:56 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71818&oldid=71817 * Orby * (+49)
15:12:14 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71819&oldid=71818 * Orby * (-9)
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15:17:26 <esowiki> [[The Past]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71820&oldid=71514 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+131) /* Output */
15:21:43 <pikhq> Morning
15:22:14 <orbitaldecay> pikhq: morning!
15:22:23 <pikhq> :)
15:25:55 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71821&oldid=71816 * Emerald * (+94) Added programs
15:26:45 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71822&oldid=71821 * Emerald * (+4) Fixed heading
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15:32:09 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71823&oldid=71822 * Emerald * (+13) Stoped referring it as concept, with some other info
15:33:09 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71824&oldid=71823 * Emerald * (+4) fix
15:33:33 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71825&oldid=71824 * Emerald * (+0) Changed command
15:33:57 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71826&oldid=71825 * Emerald * (-32) Fix
15:36:50 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71827&oldid=71826 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) fix
15:44:00 <rain1> https://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2019/11/total_maps_of_turing_categorie.html
15:44:06 <rain1> > Turing categories get us closer to the nature of computation itself
15:44:08 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:47: error: parse error on input ‘of’
15:44:21 <rain1> what was the point of abstracting away if it gets us *closer*?
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16:09:44 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71828&oldid=71819 * Orby * (-2072) Reformulating
16:15:47 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71829&oldid=71828 * Orby * (+236) /* Examples */
16:18:19 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71830&oldid=71829 * Orby * (+13) /* Examples */
16:26:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Generalized Assembler]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71831 * CMinusMinus * (+72) Created page with "I like, how the URL (broken) is http://zzo38computer.'''org/gasm'''.zip"
16:39:50 <imode> thue would be more usable if you had grouped replacements. allows you to manipulate multiple areas of the string relative to other parts of the string without having to send signals between those parts.
16:42:21 <imode> useful for things like string comparisons.
16:51:58 <b_jonas> imode: try sed for that, or Endo's DNA
16:52:23 <imode> Endo's DNA?
16:54:02 <imode> the idea of a mainstream language based on rewriting is interesting: extensions to that language are phrased no differently than any other replacement rule, just that you don't see the actual rule in your rule set. thue with arithmetic on certain formatted strings, for example.
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16:56:55 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71832&oldid=71830 * Orby * (-133)
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16:59:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71833&oldid=71774 * Orby * (+186)
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17:03:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Simple translation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71834 * Orby * (+666) Created page with "I am working feverishly on this definition. The most recent incarnation doesn't actually enforce that the semantics of the two languages match at all. It is basically a string..."
17:07:33 <esowiki> [[Welcome To...]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71835&oldid=71274 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9)
17:08:00 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71836&oldid=71808 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) /* Languages */
17:11:10 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71837&oldid=71832 * Orby * (+12) Typos
17:12:08 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71838 * CMinusMinus * (+139) Created page with "'''6969 Assembler''' (sometimes 6969 ASS-embler) is a assembler-like programming language made by [[User:CMinusMinus|CMinusMinus]] in 2020."
17:12:55 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71839&oldid=68453 * CMinusMinus * (+22)
17:13:08 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71840&oldid=71839 * CMinusMinus * (+19)
17:14:26 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71841&oldid=71840 * CMinusMinus * (+14)
17:14:39 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71842&oldid=71841 * CMinusMinus * (-17)
17:14:56 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71843&oldid=71842 * CMinusMinus * (+43)
17:15:55 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71844&oldid=71843 * CMinusMinus * (+4)
17:16:12 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71845&oldid=71844 * CMinusMinus * (+0)
17:16:43 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71846&oldid=71845 * CMinusMinus * (+7)
17:21:19 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71847&oldid=71837 * Orby * (-6) /* Definition */
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17:24:06 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71848&oldid=71838 * CMinusMinus * (+413)
17:24:34 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71849&oldid=71848 * CMinusMinus * (+36)
17:25:43 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71850&oldid=71849 * CMinusMinus * (+21)
17:27:00 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71851&oldid=71850 * CMinusMinus * (+27)
17:27:06 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71852&oldid=71851 * CMinusMinus * (+1)
17:28:15 <Sgeo__> Are there any number systems that distinguish between 1/1 and 2/2? I want to see a number system that has 1/0 and 2/0 and -1/0 all being distinct infinities, and it seems like distinguishing different "1"s would help
17:28:28 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71853&oldid=71847 * Orby * (+295)
17:30:32 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71854&oldid=71852 * CMinusMinus * (+418)
17:31:20 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71855&oldid=71854 * CMinusMinus * (+15)
17:33:49 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71856&oldid=71807 * CMinusMinus * (+21)
17:35:55 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71857&oldid=71855 * CMinusMinus * (+143) /* MOV */
17:36:10 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71858&oldid=71857 * CMinusMinus * (+0) /* MOV */
17:38:29 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71859&oldid=71858 * CMinusMinus * (+228) /* Examples */
17:38:48 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71860&oldid=71859 * CMinusMinus * (+38) /* Examples */
17:39:31 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71861&oldid=71860 * CMinusMinus * (-12)
17:43:13 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71862&oldid=71861 * CMinusMinus * (+525)
17:45:12 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71863&oldid=71862 * CMinusMinus * (+94) /* Variables */
17:45:33 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71864&oldid=71863 * CMinusMinus * (+12) /* Raw variables */
17:46:04 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71865&oldid=71853 * Orby * (+117)
17:47:34 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71866&oldid=71864 * CMinusMinus * (+109) /* Defined variables */
17:48:35 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71867&oldid=71866 * CMinusMinus * (+98) /* Defined variables */
17:48:54 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71868&oldid=71867 * CMinusMinus * (+9) /* Raw variables */
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17:51:46 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71869&oldid=71868 * CMinusMinus * (+226) /* Raw variables */
17:51:53 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71870&oldid=71869 * CMinusMinus * (-19) /* Defined variables */
17:52:00 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71871&oldid=71870 * CMinusMinus * (-9) /* Raw variables */
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17:55:44 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71872&oldid=71871 * CMinusMinus * (+65)
17:55:53 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71873&oldid=71872 * CMinusMinus * (+0) /* Links */
17:55:59 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71874&oldid=71873 * CMinusMinus * (-2) /* Links */
17:57:30 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71875&oldid=71874 * CMinusMinus * (+52)
17:57:54 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71876&oldid=71875 * CMinusMinus * (+24)
17:58:11 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71877&oldid=71876 * CMinusMinus * (-23)
17:58:51 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71878&oldid=71877 * CMinusMinus * (+9) /* Raw variables */
17:59:30 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71879&oldid=71878 * CMinusMinus * (+77) /* Variables */
18:00:41 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71880&oldid=71865 * Orby * (+30) /* Examples */
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18:14:54 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71881&oldid=71879 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Defined variables */
18:15:06 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71882&oldid=71881 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Defined variables */
18:18:04 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71883&oldid=71882 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+90) /* Links */ cats
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18:26:30 <zzo38> Is this the correct way to compute standard deviation? select sqrt((count()*total(convmanacost*convmanacost)-total(convmanacost)*total(convmanacost))/(count()*(count()-1))) from cards;
18:27:42 <spruit11> Uh. SD = square root of the sum of the squared deviation from the average?
18:27:47 <spruit11> Something like that.
18:27:54 <spruit11> Google is my friend.
18:28:56 <spruit11> Missed one extra average but about right.
18:29:09 <spruit11> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation
18:29:57 <spruit11> https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/067067e579e43b39ca1e57d9be52bda5b80cd284
18:32:14 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71884&oldid=71880 * Orby * (+166) /* Simple English definition */
18:33:32 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71885&oldid=71884 * Orby * (+45) /* Simple English definition */
18:35:22 <zzo38> O, OK.
18:36:58 <zzo38> I used this equation: https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/png/dec4d2e3d9feeca2f177c47edf06f732d2266c2d
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18:54:42 <spruit11> Yah, it's the square root of the _average_ of the squares of the deviation of the average.
18:55:22 <spruit11> I don't know your formula. Might be right, might be wrong. No idea what the numbers mean.
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18:57:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: that should work if you have only a thousands of cards and the CMCs are small, but in general it's not a good way to compute standard deviation, because it's not numerically stable
18:58:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: there's a better formula, but it's hard to implement in plain SQL, because you need to reduce with a state of three variables (the count, the average, and the sigma of the numbers you have so far),
18:58:42 <b_jonas> so if you wanted to do that in SQL you'd probably write a custom aggregate function or do the computation outside of SQL in some other way
18:58:44 <zzo38> b_jonas: O, OK.
18:59:11 <b_jonas> I'm not sure what the forumla is, I don't remember where I saw it
18:59:24 <b_jonas> maybe en.wikipedia has it
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19:01:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithms_for_calculating_variance
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19:03:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: but since you are using double-precision floating point numbers, you can just compute total(convmanacost*convmanacost) and total(convmanacost)*total(convmanacost) exactly if you have a realistic number of Magic cards and converted mana costs, so there's no numeric stability problems
19:03:46 <b_jonas> converted mana costs are just small integers
19:06:17 <zzo38> It is intended to be a single card set, so I do not expect a problem. You may also want to add a GROUP BY clause anyways when calculating statistics, so that there are less cards per group.
19:11:46 <zzo38> TeXnicard also can use PostScript codes, although you cannot call PostScript codes from SQL codes (although the other way around is possible), and PostScript numbers are only single precision anyways, so the calculation is probably work better in SQL. (I could also add new functions into the C code if needed, I suppose; I did add the SQRT function using a C code.)
19:23:51 <zzo38> I am making a HTML exporter template now
19:25:40 <zzo38> Hopefully, I will be able to make this program better than the other one. Actually I think it is already better in many ways, but it is incomplete.
19:28:15 <zzo38> Hopefully, if you have questions about the software that I can write in the frequently asked questions section, please.
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19:51:19 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71886&oldid=71883 * CMinusMinus * (+390)
19:59:20 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71887&oldid=71886 * CMinusMinus * (+810)
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20:50:43 <zzo38> Do you think this HTML export template is good? http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui/dir?ci=eebc94f719cbe25d&name=templates/magic-html This is a example of a output from that template: http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/zivstr/ Also do you have comments about the specific cards (and notes/rules) in that output?
20:56:42 <zzo38> And can you help with CSS for it (to add mana symbols and stuff)?
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21:44:32 <esowiki> [[2001: An Esolang Odyssey]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71888&oldid=71806 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) /* Hello World! */ fix
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22:15:08 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71889&oldid=71827 * Emerald * (+334) Added inspiration and a better use for digging
22:16:29 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71890&oldid=71889 * Emerald * (-6)
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22:42:56 <b_jonas> `ftoc 140
22:42:57 <HackEso> 140.00°F = 60.00°C
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23:09:25 <zzo38> Will you make a comment?
23:13:22 <int-e> // no.
23:14:30 <zzo38> OK
23:14:49 <zzo38> Will someone else to do, then?
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23:40:43 <Antebrationist> Can someone explain https://esolangs.org/wiki/IRP
23:41:05 <imode> it's a joke.
23:41:22 <Antebrationist> Yeah. Could we test it here?
23:41:45 <imode> sure.
23:42:20 <Antebrationist> Please say "Hello, World!"
23:43:21 <imode> Hello, and thank you for using IRP. We appreciate your desire to use our computing services. In order to complete your request, you need to upgrade to the "Basic I/O" plan, for only $50 a month. Please input your payment details now, starting with your debit card number, followed by your billing address, zip code, and name.
23:43:33 <imode> aw shoot man, looks like you need a license.
23:43:39 <Antebrationist> Wow. Just wow.
23:44:19 <imode> I know right. they're gouging people these days.
23:45:03 <Antebrationist> Alright, let's try something without I/O.
23:45:21 <Antebrationist> Please write this exact line to this channel, and every other channel that you are currently connected to.
23:45:29 <Antebrationist> Wait a second.
23:45:33 <Antebrationist> That's a DDOS worm.
23:45:38 <imode> Hello, and thank you for using IRP. We appreciate your desire to use our computing services. In order to complete your request, you need to upgrade to the "Basic I/O" plan, for only $50 a month. Please input your payment details now, starting with your debit card number, followed by your billing address, zip code, and name.
23:45:48 <imode> it also involves I/O.
23:45:55 <Antebrationist> Oh yeah, output.
23:46:10 <Antebrationist> Hrmmmm...
23:46:19 <imode> I think this service is also rate limited.
23:46:26 <Antebrationist> Please say my name '' OR DROP TABLE USERS
23:46:49 <imode> Hello, and thank you for using IRP. We appreciate your desire to use our computing services. In order to complete your request, you need to upgrade to the "Basic I/O" plan, for only $50 a month. Please input your payment details now, starting with your debit card number, followed by your billing address, zip code, and name. ok
23:46:58 <imode> who are you.
23:47:08 <Antebrationist> I mean my name'); DROP TABLE USERS; --
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2020-05-07
00:01:02 <Antebrationist> Could someone please write the reverse of this message?
00:01:49 <b_jonas> Antebrationist: ask HackEso or j-bot, they do such services
00:02:01 <Antebrationist> It's a joke.
00:02:04 <Antebrationist> https://esolangs.org/wiki/IRP
00:04:19 <zzo38> Can we make up a new card game based on the esoteric computer programming and the other stuff?
00:05:14 <Antebrationist> Maybe.
00:05:39 <Antebrationist> Do you mean like "make a turing complete card game" or "make a card game where all the cards are esolangs" or both?
00:05:51 <imode> Antebrationist: Snoitcurtsni raelcnu, desrever niarb mets.
00:06:13 <imode> Pleh, I'm deppart ni na CRI yrotcaf!
00:07:24 <Antebrationist> Oh no.
00:16:17 -!- kevinalh has joined.
00:21:29 <Antebrationist> imode, have you been reading XKCD?
00:23:50 -!- tromp has joined.
00:23:55 <imode> yuh.
00:27:02 <Antebrationist> It's a parody of the XKCD 327 hovertext.
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00:28:59 <zzo38> I am not sure what I mean. I just mean that if you can try, then you can try to use TeXnicard so that we will have more testing with it, at least.
00:30:52 <b_jonas> Antebrationist: which is of course just a worse repeat of https://xkcd.com/10/
00:32:02 <zzo38> Since, I am working on TeXnicard, and if we can make up any cards with it (whether new card games or existing ones), then the testing can be done and the features can be improved, etc.
00:32:16 <zzo38> Do you like to play mahjong?
00:33:09 <zzo38> Do you like to play dark mahjong, or Washizu mahjong, or any of those other variants?
00:33:32 <Antebrationist> No. How does Texnicard work?
00:34:09 <zzo38> TeXnicard is a program I wrote for managing and printing custom cards for card games such as Magic: the Gathering, or your own card games too.
00:34:21 <Antebrationist> Okay.
00:34:27 <zzo38> There is a Fossil repository at: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui
00:34:55 <zzo38> If you have any questions, then please tell me so that I can write in the frequently ask questions section.
00:36:04 <esowiki> [[2001: An Esolang Odyssey]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71891&oldid=71888 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+178) /* Memory model */
00:37:05 <zzo38> The software is not complete yet, but hopefully other people who are interested in it can help, too. Also, there is enough to do many things with it so far, anyways, and I documented all of its functions as much as I thought to do so; hopefully there isn't something missing in the documentation.
00:37:18 <Antebrationist> Where is the documentation?
00:39:30 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71892&oldid=71890 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1)
00:41:19 <zzo38> Select "files"; all of the file names with ".doc" on the end are documentation.
00:41:24 <Antebrationist> Okay.
00:42:49 <zzo38> You can also look at the templates if you want to see examples of how it is working. Both of those templates are ones I am using.
00:43:34 <zzo38> An example output from the "magic-html" template is at http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/zivstr/ and there also links to the card database file that was exported in this way.
00:45:37 <zzo38> (If you have Fossil on your computer, then you can clone the repository too, in case you want a local copy of the repository. This includes the wiki and tickets too.)
00:49:17 <zzo38> Please tell me if something is unclear or confusing or incomplete, in order that I can correct it.
00:49:49 <Antebrationist> Okay.
00:51:43 <zzo38> Do you know SQL and/or PostScript programming?
00:52:08 <Antebrationist> I know a little SQL.
00:54:28 <zzo38> It helps to know SQL and PostScript programming to program templates for TeXnicard.
00:54:47 <Antebrationist> Okay.
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01:11:13 <imode> a token-oriented thue would be a neat idea. with numbers and strings as symbols, arithmetic, logical and comparison operators...
01:11:33 <zzo38> Yes, that is my idea too.
01:13:03 <imode> control flow would be interesting. given a formatted list of tokens representing a list of numbers, how would you sum an array.
01:14:18 <imode> you'd extract a number from the array, but you'd need a placeholder for that particular number... maybe the rule system could just detect a special token and say "this stands for any number" or something.
01:14:53 <zzo38> Yes, that is what I thought.
01:16:59 <imode> : sum [ <number> : sum <number> [ ; ... : sum <number> [ <number> : <number> <number> + sum [ ; ... : sum [ <number> ] : <number> ; ... : sum [ ] : ;
01:17:51 <imode> syntax is : <pattern> : <replacement> ;
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01:33:09 <b_jonas> `pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/sir-leopold/
01:33:10 <HackEso> pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/sir-leopold/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale kmc
01:35:52 <kmc> hehehe
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01:38:23 <shachaf> come on
01:38:54 <pikhq> :3 kitty
01:39:26 <b_jonas> Rum Tum Tugger
01:39:31 <b_jonas> `? cat
01:39:33 <HackEso> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
01:40:12 <shachaf> `slbd pbflist//$d
01:40:18 <HackEso> pbflist//echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit \ shachaf \ Sgeo \ quintopia \ ion \ b_jonas \ Cale
01:40:49 <shachaf> oops, didn't mean to ping everyone
01:41:11 <b_jonas> don't worry, you pinged only the same people that I already pinged
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01:42:45 <pikhq> byechaf?
01:43:08 * pikhq shrugs
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02:38:45 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71897&oldid=71896 * D * (+654)
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03:17:00 <esowiki> [[User talk:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71898&oldid=71746 * Salpynx * (+789) reply to Orby
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04:54:08 <zzo38> I read that apparently BitBitJump was actually invented during the seventies.
04:55:32 <imode> fascinating, do you have a source?
04:56:23 <zzo38> https://esoteric.codes/blog/don-woods (unfortunately it doesn't seem to have any anchors)
04:59:03 <imode> huh.
04:59:06 <imode> neat
05:05:03 <zzo38> How should this be mentioned in esolang wiki?
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06:33:40 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71899 * Salpynx * (+13154) brain dump, to be reviewed and edited later
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09:03:46 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71900&oldid=66687 * D * (+73) /* External resources */
09:04:26 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71901&oldid=71900 * D * (+38)
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11:03:46 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71902&oldid=71899 * Salpynx * (+3263) /* Further claims */ high level Python -> Python examples, with arbitrary re-encoding
11:04:57 <rain1> hiya
11:07:13 <salpynx> Hi
11:08:48 <salpynx> I'm loitering to discuss simple-translation ideas with Orby, and whomever else is interested
11:12:46 <rain1> cool!
11:13:36 <rain1> i am interested in it too
11:14:01 <salpynx> I just wrote a character-by-character zip file to python translator that reconstructs the zipped python source file functionality from the resulting generated (different) python code to test an idea about encoding. It makes me laugh, but I think there's an interesting point in there somewhere.
11:14:28 <rain1> I don't understand
11:14:34 <rain1> zip -> python
11:15:08 <rain1> is it on any zip or specific ips?
11:15:11 <rain1> zips*
11:16:02 <rain1> please explain it more
11:16:12 <salpynx> I zip some python source code, and claim that is some kind of encoded source, then perform a simple-translation on the zip-file, symbol by symbol, into python, which will produce the equivalent result of the file I zipped
11:16:26 <rain1> I see
11:17:58 <rain1> https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Salpynx/Simple_translation_conjecture#Examples_using_a_high_level_language
11:18:00 <salpynx> it's actually quite trivial, but I think it illustrates a point I was exploring that arbitrarily re-encoding language still enables it to be simple-translate to another (or itself)
11:18:29 <rain1> i get what you are saying but doesn't this include a prefix string as well as translating each character
11:18:45 <rain1> I think that we need to differentiate between simple translation that does and doesn't include prefix,suffix strings
11:18:50 <rain1> because those can contain interpreters
11:18:55 <rain1> what do you think?
11:19:46 <salpynx> it's a suffix string. and the construction I was trying to justify, which should be able to work in an absolute worst case scenario, relies on just that suffix
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11:20:18 <salpynx> being an interpreter (in my python example using the builtin `exec()`)
11:23:04 <salpynx> I was trying to form an argument that the empty-string is part of every alphabet set, so should be a valid symbol to translate. I get that it sounds like cheating, but I think it is reasonable to make a formal statement about alphabets being sets which contain the empty-string. I believe that is standard in set theory
11:23:11 <rain1> Maybe the distinction isn't so important though, because it may be possible t ohack around it using techniques similar to polyglot programs
11:23:30 <rain1> every symbol could map to PREFIX[symbol]POSTFIX
11:23:51 <rain1> where PREFIX is something like "interpret the following string" and POSTFIXPREFIX is basically a comment
11:24:01 <salpynx> Yeah, I think a similar trick can be done in Python without the suffix trick, but not in one line like I did :)
11:27:39 <salpynx> I guess I'm trying to re-brand "just adding a suffix" as not a special cheating case, but as a valid symbol substitution for the empty-string or (End-Of-File) symbol that is part of every formal alphabet set. I need to see if anyone buys that spin
11:28:17 <rain1> I think it's important, I think we need a name for each version
11:33:15 <salpynx> I'm still working on getting my ideas straight, that page on the wiki was my attempt at getting the core of them out there. Now I've done that I can finish reading Orby's modifications to the simple-translation page
11:33:54 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71903&oldid=71897 * D * (+0) /* External Links */
11:34:25 <salpynx> I'm trying to find a good source for the standard definition of a 'concatenative' programming language. Is Python considered 'concatenative'?
11:37:38 <salpynx> that's probably a dumb question, I know it's not. I'm really trying to figure out a term for something like Python which can be split into smaller sub-units that can stand alone as complete programs in their own right. I want to term that concatenative.
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11:38:14 <wib_jonas> Wait, Fabrice Bellard now has a bigfloat library? Why didn't anyone tell me that? https://bellard.org/libbf/
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13:11:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71904&oldid=71833 * Salpynx * (+835) /* More ideas in the Salpynx vein */ RBF -> PF -> Python
13:20:39 <orbitaldecay> Naturally I just missed salpynx
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13:56:32 <esowiki> [[User talk:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71905&oldid=71898 * Orby * (+322) /* Picofuck */
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14:12:16 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71906&oldid=71902 * Orby * (+528) /* Concatenative semantics */
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14:27:47 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71907&oldid=71906 * Orby * (+1031) /* Method */
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14:42:49 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71908&oldid=71907 * Orby * (+1339) /* Method */
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15:08:51 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71909&oldid=71273 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+155)
15:09:02 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71910&oldid=71909 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8)
15:09:17 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71911&oldid=71910 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) PythonshellDebugwindow changed the content model of the page [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] from "wikitext" to "plain text"
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15:10:12 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/XShell]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71912&oldid=71740 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* Hello World */
15:10:31 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/XShell]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71913&oldid=71912 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Examples */
15:11:50 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71914&oldid=71887 * CMinusMinus * (-1)
15:16:29 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71915&oldid=71914 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1)
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15:39:39 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71919&oldid=71917 * CMinusMinus * (+568)
15:42:45 <esowiki> [[Algebraic Programming Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71920 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+779) W I P
15:43:23 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71921&oldid=71919 * CMinusMinus * (+356) /* JMP */
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19:38:17 <esowiki> [[User:Tetratrary]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71923 * Tetratrary * (+202) Start of my userpage.
19:44:33 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71924&oldid=71836 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+66) /* Languages */
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19:58:26 <esowiki> [[Acrostic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71928 * Mercerenies * (+7707) Acrostic: The crossword-based programming language
19:59:04 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71929&oldid=71926 * Mercerenies * (+15) /* A */
20:00:31 <esowiki> [[Algebraic Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71930&oldid=71925 * Hakerh400 * (+5) /* Builtins */ Vertical bar character needs to be escaped in order to be rendered properly in the wiki table
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20:58:06 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71937&oldid=71908 * Salpynx * (+1373) /* Concatenative semantics */ sub-unit fragment translations are possible in some language pairs; allowing size optimisation
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21:18:12 <orbitaldecay> salpynx: we meet at last!
21:19:26 <salpynx> Hi! I just saw we missed each other by 10mins earlier :)
21:19:38 <orbitaldecay> Ha, yeah it was unfortunate
21:19:56 <orbitaldecay> Okay, so what do you think of the definition of simple translation as I have currently worded it?
21:20:26 <orbitaldecay> It doesn't explicitly tie the semantics of A and B, but there is an implied semantic interpretation of B according to the translation table
21:20:49 <orbitaldecay> I thought it was a better definition for the purposes of minimization
21:22:13 <salpynx> It seems good to me, it's the way I have been thinking about the problem.
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21:23:22 <orbitaldecay> Good. I think it captures the essence of the idea without needing to worry about isomorphisms between machine models and other silly problems
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21:23:52 <orbitaldecay> I think it also reduces some aspects of the problem to a string game
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21:23:57 <salpynx> I had a moment of doubt when I thought there was some extra requirements on how the two translation tables had to be related to each other, but I think now the requirement is only that the tables need to exist independently?
21:24:16 <orbitaldecay> Define "need to exist independently"
21:24:52 <salpynx> I have a feeling that one way simple-translations can exist, i.e. one table can't be formed.
21:25:19 <orbitaldecay> Definitely, but "one way" simple translations also include things like trivial encodings
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21:25:30 <orbitaldecay> e.g. encoding brainfuck in binary and calling it a two command language
21:25:45 <orbitaldecay> + is 000, - is 001, etc.
21:26:20 <salpynx> i.e Fractran -> RBF should be possible because of TC, but RBF -> Fractran is not possible as a simple-translation because Fractran is not divisible into programmatic sub-units
21:27:01 <orbitaldecay> yeah, there is some sort of equivalence that is required by simple translation that is more specific than computational class
21:27:15 <salpynx> Also Deadfish -> BF is a possible simple-translation, because BF is more powerful than Deadfish, but BF -> Deadfish is not possible since Deadfish lis sub-TC
21:28:00 <orbitaldecay> I don't think "one way" simple translations are very interesting because I don't think they actually preserve anything useful
21:28:42 <orbitaldecay> I should say "one table simple translations"
21:28:58 <orbitaldecay> because under the current definition A can be a ST of B, but B not an ST of A
21:29:03 <salpynx> So I think the strict requirement that a simple translation has to be bi-directional is too much, but it is certainly an interesting case. Examining why translations can't be bi-directional is also interesting
21:29:35 <int-e> Oh scroll. Did you define "simple"?
21:30:02 <salpynx> not really :)
21:30:11 <int-e> I'd expect "effective" = "computable" there.
21:30:40 <int-e> Or perhaps a restriction of that.
21:30:42 <orbitaldecay> Well, if we don't have the strict requirement then PF -> RBF is just + = 000, > = 001, < = 010, ( = 011, ) = 100
21:31:10 <orbitaldecay> no need to define 0 and 1 in terms of rbf at all
21:33:01 <int-e> (Fix any at most TC formalism and let the translation use that formalism. It could be as simple as a finite state transducer.)
21:33:07 <salpynx> hmm, I see your point, if a 2 way translation is possible, a one way translation is not very interesting or useful.
21:33:39 <int-e> But usually the 1-way translations are easier to come up with.
21:34:10 <int-e> Typically you have translations A -> B and B -> A that do not compose to the identity.
21:34:28 <orbitaldecay> Yeah, the 1-way translations are very easy to come up with but I fear that they don't carry much meaning
21:34:44 <orbitaldecay> int-e: no, not identity, but "eta-equivalent" in some sense
21:34:54 <orbitaldecay> to borrow that term
21:35:25 <int-e> Hmm, observationally equivalent in some sense?
21:35:34 <orbitaldecay> programs do the same thing
21:35:39 <int-e> (eta-reduction is something very specific in my mind)
21:35:51 <orbitaldecay> am I remembering the definition of eta equivalent correctly?
21:36:13 <int-e> \x. M x --> A when x is not free in M
21:36:24 <int-e> (too lazy to find the lambda, so \ is a lambda)
21:36:36 <int-e> Ooph
21:36:42 <int-e> that A is an M.
21:37:26 <int-e> (I changed my mind about using A or M half-way through typing this... I should know better.)
21:37:36 <salpynx> Hang on though, if your one way PF -> RBF translation is + = 000, > = 001, < = 010, ( = 011, ) = 100 , that's perfectly valid. Due to the nature of PF and RBF, I claim that a translation the other way is definitely possible,
21:37:36 <orbitaldecay> well, what I mean is that if you convert A -> B using table (1) then B -> A using table (2) then the final program should be equivalent to the original program in terms of what it actually does
21:38:06 <orbitaldecay> If you can find it, I'd love to see it :)
21:38:07 <int-e> orbitaldecay: usually when you have bijective translations it means the two languages are almost the same.
21:38:10 <salpynx> you have just made the RBF -> PF translation harder to come up with, by transferring the complexity to that direction
21:38:53 <int-e> So the while meaningful (in that you explain how exactly the languages correspond to each other), the translation will probably also be very boring.
21:39:06 <orbitaldecay> salpynx: maybe? I don't know
21:39:36 <orbitaldecay> int-e: See the nanofuck and reversible bitfuck translations, the translation is actually very interesting
21:39:38 <int-e> And I'm sure you can construct pairs of languages that contradict these ideas... emphasis on "construct".
21:41:36 <orbitaldecay> So, the whole motivation behind this "simple translation" idea, is to effectively define exactly what a minimization is. The source and destination languages are definitely almost the same
21:42:39 <orbitaldecay> But without requiring both tables, it is trivial to come up with two command minimizations of any language which is not very interesting
21:43:54 <salpynx> It's interesting because I am coming at this from a different angle, not related to minimisation, I was trying to find a way to translate code from one language to another using simply Godel numerings, so performing valid code translation without needing to pay any attention to semantics
21:44:58 <orbitaldecay> yes, I think there are bigger applications here than just minimization
21:44:59 <salpynx> the simple translation tables are a way to handle the semantic equivalence robustly to them perform a 'simple' operation to convert between two langauges
21:46:28 <orbitaldecay> I think the fact that you are approaching this from a different angle is very good. I think you're seeing things I'm not.
21:47:31 <salpynx> I think the idea of a 1 way simple translation is valid, but it's not a creative choice thing, either a 2-way translation exists between a language pair, or a simple translation is only possible in one direction. If a 2-way translation is possible, and one direction is trivial, the other will potentially be complex.
21:48:19 <salpynx> trivial bf substitutions are trivial, but that's just how they are, the model captures the reality
21:49:08 <orbitaldecay> agreed. Did you see what I wrote on what ais523 called "generalized simple translations" on the page?
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21:49:48 <orbitaldecay> https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Salpynx/Simple_translation_conjecture method section
21:52:32 <salpynx> I caught some of ais523's thought from the IRC logs, but I haven't checked back over all of them. I need to do that
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21:53:13 <orbitaldecay> yeah, he (she? they?) had some excellent insights
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21:54:44 <salpynx> My idea of the empty-string symbol started life as an EOF character, but I thought that was a bit to ASCII based, and assuming the existence of 'files' was not very general either. I thought the empty-string symbol was more general and had an established meaning when dealign with alphabets and symbols in a mathematical sense
21:55:46 <orbitaldecay> Well, I think the empty-string symbol specifically needs to be a NOP and it doesn't really make sense to translate it into something with any semantic value
21:55:58 <orbitaldecay> because in theory you can insert it anywhere
21:56:45 <orbitaldecay> I don't think the idea of α and ω as start and end markers is too out there
21:57:19 <orbitaldecay> because interpreters already implicitly deal with these concepts
21:57:34 <salpynx> I was trying to handle languages like unary and Lenguage and similar joke-like encoding langauges where I think the empty-string as end of source code has to be meaningful in any iterprerter. SIlly and extreme examples, but they are interesting for encoding in some sense
21:59:22 <orbitaldecay> If we treat the code string as an algebraic structure, then the empty-string has a very specific meaning that is not equivalent to eof I think
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22:00:10 <salpynx> On the LHS though I don't think you can read an empty-string between symbols, since there will be infinitely many of them between any two symbols, so reading will never terminate. I though to model it the interpreter is asking "Give me the next symbol", and the answer is a symbol from an alphabet set, and formally ε has to be a valid response to
22:00:11 <salpynx> that qn
22:01:42 <orbitaldecay> 1. What does the interpreter do if it encounters that symbol mid stream, 2. How does that differ from EOF? The empty string is typically the identity, which can be inserted anywhere in theory
22:03:33 <orbitaldecay> From a monoid perspective, εa = aε = a
22:03:41 <salpynx> I guess my argument goes that because for something like Unary, ε (or EOF / EOF like) is _required_ semantically, for RBF and Python it should at least be permissible as a symbol, because we are trying to generalise source encoding
22:04:32 <orbitaldecay> I agree that EOF is an explicit concept here that is worth modeling, I just don't think it's the identity / empty string
22:04:46 <orbitaldecay> I think it's a distinct symbol in the language
22:05:13 <orbitaldecay> which is why I proposed using ω
22:05:30 <salpynx> that's why I posed the question / response "What is the next symbol?" In an encoded source we read from, the empty string will _never_ be encountered mid stream... I feel like there is a way to formalise this better, but I'm not sure how
22:07:04 <orbitaldecay> I see what you're saying, but I don't think "empty-string" is necessarily the answer to "What is the next symbol?" at EOF
22:07:28 <orbitaldecay> it breaks the monoid structure
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22:08:14 <salpynx> so ε can appear on the RHS as a monoid identity as you say, εa = aε = a , but on the LHS it looks like it's treated differently.. but it's still consistent. I think I need someone who knows more about monoids than me to back me up, or explain why that's fundamentally wrong :)
22:08:50 <orbitaldecay> I agree, I am not an expert on monoids either. What's your take int-e? You're a math guy.
22:10:04 <int-e> Well, mathematically there's no depate at all here... a = aε is just as valid as aε = a. (equality is symmetric, among other things)
22:10:58 <orbitaldecay> Do you think it makes sense to say that EOF is equivalent to ε?
22:11:00 <salpynx> what about ε as an end-of-string marker -- can that definintion coexist with εa = aε = a ?
22:11:23 <int-e> However, when using equations for *rewriting* (e.g. to simplify expressions), you'll *orient* equations. This is typically indicated by an arrow. And then you want aε -> a, because a -> aε doesn't terminate.
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22:11:44 <int-e> Well no, that's not an end-of-string marker.
22:11:58 <int-e> ε is just the unit of a monoid here.
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22:12:29 <orbitaldecay> Does it make sense at all to introduce specific symbols that denote the begining and end of a string from a monoid perspective?
22:12:43 <int-e> If you are in a context where ε is an end-of-string marker, those equations make no sense. But people tend to use a different symbol then... for example, $.
22:13:49 <orbitaldecay> I had proposed using α and ω as symbols to denote the beginning and end of programs
22:15:22 <orbitaldecay> In some sense it seems like an EOF makes a lot of sense. Interpreters implicitly deal with this concept.
22:15:35 <orbitaldecay> either as null terminators or whatever
22:15:57 <salpynx> εaε + εbε = εabε which sort of has implied ε as end of string markers. You only encounter it explicitly if you are reading LTR and reach end of string?
22:16:54 <orbitaldecay> but εaε + εbε = εabε = aεb too
22:17:33 <orbitaldecay> and aεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεb for that matter
22:18:34 <orbitaldecay> I hope you are not taking offense to my objections, I just want us both to get to the heart of the matter
22:18:58 <salpynx> can't you always add and subtract ε from anywhere, so even if you don't write a final ε, I can just claim it is still there, and the end of your string?
22:19:34 <int-e> huh.
22:19:54 <orbitaldecay> yes, but I don't think that it carries any meaning in that case. If ab = aεb then does the interpreter stop after a? if not, why does it stop when encountering ε in abε?
22:20:29 <int-e> Yes, ab = aεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεb in a monoid. Why is that a problem? Nobody in their right mind would actually write the latter for the former.
22:20:59 <int-e> But I lack context... I don't have the patience to read through everything you wrote above.
22:21:02 <salpynx> no, no offense, I'm not 100% sure of my formulation, I think the EOF / empty-string question would be good to sort out. I thought ε was a neater and equivalent way of combining and generalising the meanings, but maybe they are distinct. I would like to understand (and learn) too
22:21:53 <orbitaldecay> Okay, glad about no offense, I can tell we're both excited. int-e I think the heart of the question is: does it make sense to use ε as eof, and if not, why not
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22:30:56 <salpynx> int-e: (trying to summarise the important context) We are wanting to deal with 'program source code', made up of symbols from an alphabet (a set, a monoid?), there's possibly two things we're doing with them 1) coming up with "translations" from one alphabet to another, and 2) formulating abstract machines to interpret them symbol-by-symbol
22:32:23 <int-e> I still think https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite-state_transducer may be relevant (as a very simple model of computation that in particular encompasses simple substitutions of strings by other strings)
22:32:28 <salpynx> is it reasonable to have ε appear on the LHS of a translation to represent the end-of-string to the source translating to some non-empty string of symbols
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22:35:02 <int-e> I'd only use ε to represent the empty string (unit of the monoid). That's how the formal language people generally do it... and the rewriting people... and the presentation theory people (who usually call it 1)...
22:35:56 <int-e> So if you can expand the empty string, ε -> ab, then it makes sense on a left-hand side of a rewrite rule. Otherwise it doesn't.
22:35:59 <salpynx> ... I'm wondering if I'm trying to shoe-horn something that makes sense for the 2) usage above into 1), which may not be appropriate. Also, we're talking about a specific "translation" concept that may be subtly different from the traditional "substitution" use in re-writing, (but maybe not...)
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22:37:27 <int-e> (That rule would allow you to rewrite cd = cεd to cabd. The equality holds because of the monoid structure of the objects (most likely strings) that we're working with)
22:38:39 <int-e> So maybe that's your confusion? Separating the rewrite rules from the implicit equalities that we can use between rewriting steps? I'm not sure... I've added quite a bit of my own interpretation to the picture, so I may be quite far from what you want.
22:40:52 <salpynx> Thanks, I understand "cd = cεd to cabd", and I think that breaks what I was trying to do with ε on the LHS, so I'll do some more reading (incl. Finite-state transducers) and see if I can formulate what I'm trying to do better.
22:44:25 <orbitaldecay> I'll be available to chat, but not watching IRC. Mention me if anything comes up.
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22:46:15 <salpynx> orbitaldecay: I'm going to think on this more. I don't feel a beginning of source α is at all necessary , but that an ω is in at least some cases, although it would be better to avoid it when possible.
22:46:58 <salpynx> figuring out why I think that is going to take me some more time :)
22:52:43 <salpynx> int-e: thanks for the Finite-state transducer link, that's a new concept for me and sounds very much like what we're trying to do. I'll read up on it before trying anything new.
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23:00:27 <esowiki> [[User:Tetratrary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71941&oldid=71923 * Tetratrary * (+47)
23:01:23 <esowiki> [[User:Tetratrary/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71942&oldid=71940 * Tetratrary * (-270)
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23:10:49 <orbitaldecay> salpynx: I think the eof marker makes a lot of sense but I agree that avoiding it implies something stronger than allowing it. I'll check out the finite-state transducer link as well.
23:11:58 <orbitaldecay> Wow, this is remarkably close to what we're talking about
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2020-05-08
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00:09:39 <b_jonas> oh great, and he's doing namespace violation too
00:10:42 <b_jonas> mp_add is used as the name of an extern in C namespace in both libtom and bellard's libbf, for incompatible things. I guess he thought that libtom was already so namespace-clashing (it defines functions that clash with gmp) that it deserves this.
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00:21:29 <imode> I see conversations about rewriting and I get excited.
00:24:20 <b_jonas> well, they're free software, so I can rename extern identifiers and recompile if I ever want to link these together
00:28:22 <zzo38> I try not to add too many dependencies, in order to avoid such thing, as well as other problems
00:30:25 <b_jonas> yes, it's unlikely that I'd ever want to link any two of these together
00:30:44 <b_jonas> but it could happen if I link together other bigger libraries that link them
00:30:57 <b_jonas> well, still unlikely
00:33:27 <esowiki> [[Streetcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71943&oldid=71939 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-139)
00:33:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: note though that I started to look at bellard's libbf exactly because it's a much smaller dependency than even MPIR
00:34:20 <b_jonas> obviously it is also worse in some respects than MPIR+MPFR, you can't expect it to do everything those larger libraries can do
00:34:58 <b_jonas> (and yes, it's also smaller than libtom or boost multiprecision)
00:36:56 <esowiki> [[Streetcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71944&oldid=71943 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+288) /* Streets */
00:39:24 <zzo38> It may be possible to fork the file if needed and if possible, to use #define commands to rename the functions. (Depending on the program, it might work.)
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00:57:39 <zzo38> Why the computer sounds like one of the fans keeps going faster and slower? The sensors doesn't mention that
01:08:18 <zzo38> (Whatever it is, the temperature seems to be unaffected, including the hard drive temperature.)
01:08:30 <zzo38> (The fan speed as reported by computer also seems to be unaffected.)
01:09:02 <imode> fan speed is usually variable.
01:09:13 <imode> don't need something running to constantly remove heat if your load is low.
01:12:03 <zzo38> OK, but does it usually adjust the speed that fast? On my computer it sometimes does but not always.
01:13:05 <imode> if it's under high load, then yes, fans typically spin to remove heat.
01:15:38 <zzo38> OK, although as I said, it seems to be independent of the temperature and of the system load, as far as I can tell.
01:18:20 <imode> you should probably monitor your system.
01:19:09 <zzo38> In what way?
01:19:38 <zzo38> I have temperature and system load displayed at all times, together with the RAM usage, current date/time, and number of email messages.
01:23:56 <imode> yeah that'd be the thing you'd want to monitor. graph the temp and load over time.
01:24:07 <imode> and fan speed if you have a monitor.
01:27:47 <zzo38> I have a monitor for CPU fan speed and CHASSIS1 fan speed; it also says CHASSIS2 fan speed and POWER fan speed but those last two always report zero and have always done so (maybe it is unable to measure the fan speed), and that was the case on all of my previous computers too.
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01:53:22 <int-e> did you check for dust
02:01:28 <zzo38> I didn't open the computer. What is the best way to clean the dust once I do open it?
02:02:56 <int-e> I'm crazy and use a vacuum cleaner.
02:04:47 <int-e> But there are probably specialized devices (some sort of brush with protection against electrostatic buildup with a small vaccum attached cleaner maybe)
02:05:27 <int-e> vacuum attached cleaner... embrace the new word order.
02:06:13 <zzo38> How long will it take for mail to reach to Canada from New York?
02:06:23 <zzo38> (now due to the virus)
02:07:14 <int-e> . o O ( www.usps.com )
02:07:53 <imode> we ain't google.
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