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00:38:36 <esowiki> [[Cortex language 3A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71538&oldid=71537 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* Syntax */
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01:28:58 <orbitaldecay> Does anyone know of a BF variant that executes the program in an implicit loop and only has if-blocks in the language?
01:33:31 <b_jonas> orbitaldecay: it's hard to tell, as there are so many bf variants out there and it's hard to search their docs
01:33:44 <int-e> As long as you ensure that the implicit loop is executed at least once... (an implicit while loop on an empty tape of 0s is a bit useless)...
01:33:46 <b_jonas> that looks like a variant that you can reasonably consider
01:34:46 <int-e> A large part of Brainfuck programming is getting out of loops :P
01:35:32 <int-e> Of course that's offset by having just one loop... so I'll not make any claims about which flavor is easier to use :P
01:37:03 <Cale> orbitaldecay: The printable subset of x86 assembly
01:37:10 <int-e> But I have no doubt that this is TC. With unbounded cells you should get a nice Minsky machine implementation; with bounded cells a more cumbersome Turing machine.
01:37:24 <Cale> x86 machine code rather
01:37:41 <Cale> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA_DrBwkiJA&feature=youtu.be
01:37:42 <orbitaldecay> Cale: hahaha, in an implicit loop that would be great
01:38:16 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Spssyy * New user account
01:38:26 <int-e> Cale: yeah that one is quite awkward unless you allow run-time patching of the code to arbitrary values.
01:38:41 <Cale> There is an implicit loop if you're in the right mode
01:39:06 <orbitaldecay> Yeah, I remember playing around with printable machine code in the context of writing shell code to sneak into text fields that are validated
01:39:56 <shachaf> "if" should be called "affine while".
01:40:14 <b_jonas> orbitaldecay: ah yes, those php thingies that "validate" input by grepping for SQL keywords and for a less than sign followed by a letter, and then using them as unfiltered SQL or HTML if they don't contain them
01:40:26 <shachaf> C has all four: do/while (relevant), if (affine), while, and a plain block.
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01:42:40 <b_jonas> orbitaldecay: for printable x86 code, see https://esolangs.org/wiki/ABC_(compiler)
01:43:03 <Cale> orbitaldecay: That video I linked is where tom7 describes a C compiler he wrote which produces this weird printable assembly, and he makes use of the fact that if your address is in the top 16bit region and you issue the right kind of jump instruction, the instruction pointer gets ANDed with 0xffff automatically
01:43:13 <Cale> and that's how he does loops
01:43:22 <Cale> have to be that one
01:43:57 <Cale> er, printable machine code, I keep saying assembly :)
01:44:01 <b_jonas> Cale: right, the compiler is the one I just linked to
01:44:19 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71540&oldid=71470 * Spssyy * (+199) /* Introductions */
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01:50:23 <esowiki> [[User:Spssyy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71541 * Spssyy * (+439) Created page with "I am spssyy. I will frequently update this list below when I publish a new Esolang. I had written the documentation for Superset (formerly Brainfuck 3.0, now docs were deleted..."
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02:25:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71542&oldid=71524 * Salpynx * (+2880) PF using a RBF self-interpreter (hypothetical)
02:37:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71543&oldid=71542 * Salpynx * (+272) /* PF attempt, using a hypothetical RBF self-interpreter */ fix encoding convention
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03:07:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71544&oldid=71543 * Ais523 * (+768) /* Notes on conjecture */ my thoughts on this
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03:17:41 <imode> I wonder what Forth would be like if Chuck Moore didn't favor a stack as the method of manipulating data, and instead used something like registers.
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03:18:12 <imode> or just straight up memory. it'd probably require a little more parsing.
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03:25:24 <imode> as you'd have an actual format/"grammar", there. it'd probably just be assembly language with fancier blocks.
03:28:55 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_triggered_architecture neat article.
03:30:35 <zzo38> Transport triggered architecture is something I have also once thought of before I know what it is called, and I once tried to design the electronics schematic for a computer that is based on transport triggered architecture
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03:55:55 <esowiki> [[Alan Turing]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71545 * IFcoltransG * (+870) Created page with "{{stub}} '''Alan Mathison Turing''' was a mathematician, philosopher, cryptographer, and pioneering computer scientist. "Turing" is surely the most common name mentioned on th..."
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03:59:26 <esowiki> [[Lambda calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71546&oldid=66658 * IFcoltransG * (+1262) Rewrote the start to be a better introduction
04:00:18 <zzo38> Even though Adobe does not want to invent level 4 PostScript, I think that level 4 PostScript should be invented, including such thing as transparency, automatic allocation of strings and arrays for some operators if you pass null instead of a preallocated string or array, commands to access font metrics, and some of the features of Ghostscript (such as makeimagedevice and %pipe%), and allowing dictionaries in binary object format.
04:01:20 <esowiki> [[Lambda calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71547&oldid=71546 * IFcoltransG * (+42) Added a heading to break up wall of text
04:02:15 <esowiki> [[Lambda calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71548&oldid=71547 * IFcoltransG * (+18) Added another heading because the text was still to much like a wall
04:05:04 <zzo38> And also a JBIG2 decoding filter.
04:17:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71549&oldid=71544 * Salpynx * (+1229) /* PF attempt, using a hypothetical RBF self-interpreter */ details of the hypothetical command
04:22:37 <esowiki> [[Lambda calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71550&oldid=71548 * IFcoltransG * (+1093) /* Introduction */ Broke down some of the more complex notation for beginners
04:27:09 <imode> transport triggered architecture seems to be "imperative dataflow programming".
04:31:56 <esowiki> [[Alan Mathison Turing]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71551 * IFcoltransG * (+25) Redirected page to [[Alan Turing]]
04:32:53 <esowiki> [[Turing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71552&oldid=55858 * IFcoltransG * (+53)
04:33:50 <esowiki> [[Turing machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71553&oldid=67049 * IFcoltransG * (+4) Networking, i.e. adding a link
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05:01:59 <Train> What does the bot esowiki do?
05:09:04 <Train> Does it report edits?
05:09:43 <Train> Also zzo38 I found an "amusing" program
05:10:16 <Train> You can probably guess exactly what it does easily.
05:13:15 <Train> I was reading a codegolf, and that was my program.
05:13:55 <Train> Also, I found an xkcd that I think is relevant for this channel. https://xkcd.com/1782/
05:25:38 <zzo38> I am currently working on TeXnicard, working on the random deck mode.
05:28:58 <zzo38> Do you like to make up Magic: the Gathering cards and puzzles?
05:29:27 <Train> I was interested in it at one point, but never really got around to it.
05:29:58 <zzo38> I made up some puzzles of Magic: the Gathering myself too. I also set up a NNTP to discuss such things.
05:35:19 <zzo38> One of them is http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.2 and you can try different numbers at the end for different puzzles.
05:36:12 <Train> And what is the goal?
05:36:20 <Train> Is it just the play MTG?
05:36:26 <zzo38> To win the game, of course.
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05:44:35 <zzo38> I have a question about the rules of Magic: the Gathering, that I wonder if someone on here knows the answer. If during a subgame your opponent concedes the subgame, are you allowed to choose to concede the subgame yourself too at the same time, so that neither player wins the subgame?
05:45:11 <myname> why would anybody want to do that?
05:48:17 <zzo38> In case you are trying to half your life points in the main game, after either you manage to do something in the subgame to take cards out of the main game, in which case your opponent doesn't need to concede, or else your opponent also concedes the subgame which would also half your opponent's points and would be an alternative way to reach the goal, either way requiring your own life points half too.
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06:01:48 <zzo38> Has anyone managed to make a satisfying Babson task in Magic: the Gathering?
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06:23:04 <b_jonas> Train: esowiki reports edits, and it may also be the bot that gets the logs for https://esolangs.org/logs/all.html most of the time
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06:38:23 <probablymoony> but i've been working on a DEC VAX emulator (as the SIMH one is nigh unreadable and I needed something to do)
06:38:47 <probablymoony> and I finally have it in a state where I can extend it to be a full VAX implementation'
06:39:39 <probablymoony> it seems to take about 25-35ns per instruction right now with the MMU disabled (checks for it exist, but if it was enabled the program would crash as it's unimplemented.)
06:45:07 <zzo38> Did you implement the extensions? http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ian/Computer_architectures#Some_ideas_of_mine
06:45:30 <probablymoony> https://github.com/moonheart08/emutk/tree/master/emutk-vax if any reader is interested. Code's spaghetti but it works. Hmmm?
06:46:18 <probablymoony> not all instrs are implemented (only a small subset)
06:47:03 <probablymoony> that'd require me to upturn my entire execution model, I think i'm good :P
06:47:22 <zzo38> O, well, maybe once all of the instructions is implemented, then you can also add a option to make these extensions (or at least some of them), maybe
06:47:23 <lambdabot> Data constructor not in scope: PC :: t0 -> terror: Variable not in scope...
06:47:36 <probablymoony> I won't stop you. (you can already muck with PC, the emulator won't crash on you)
06:48:46 <probablymoony> I was going to hold off on implementing instrs that need software float for a godo bit. We'll see.
06:48:53 <zzo38> Would you implement the microcodes?
06:49:37 <probablymoony> once again, microcode would require a bunch of execution model redesigns and it'd be much much slower
06:50:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: re your question about subgames, I don't know the answer, but I decided that I gave up trying to understand the rules of subgames ever since they've been banned from Vintage
06:50:56 <b_jonas> I mean banned from all supported non-un formats
06:51:09 <b_jonas> but that's mostly the same
06:54:11 <probablymoony> zzo38: extra thanks, it immediately made me aware of an unemulated edge-case (incrementing immediates actually works)
06:57:01 <zzo38> Writing immediates is something that some of my own designs supported even before I knew about VAX, just because, to me it is make sense, if it is orthogonal. However, on 6502 the instructions to write immediates don't work, and instead will result in reading immediate (and ignoring the value), it would seem to me.
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06:58:30 <zzo38> (If it did work, it might be a good way to do bank switching in Famicom, when using a suitable mapper.)
06:59:58 <probablymoony> I was considering rearranging my bus model so the bus is the "master" for everything, and the VAX CPU is just a device on it..
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07:00:50 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, it is banned in Vintage, but not in "pseudo-Vintage"
07:01:53 <Train> zzo38, should I upload the interpreter to sprunge?
07:01:57 <probablymoony> really if I did that model rearranging the addressable registers would come naturally anyways
07:02:35 <probablymoony> that'd be in violation of DEC's design manuals for obvious reasons (if i modified MOVAx)
07:03:28 <zzo38> Train: Yes, probably. (I should also think to put the documentation in esolang wiki)
07:03:48 <zzo38> probablymoony: Making it a configuration option is what I suggested
07:05:08 <probablymoony> zzo38: also am I the only one who finds the SIMH implementation of the VAX unreadable? I haven't cross-referenced with it at all because I just can't read it's SRC :T
07:05:41 <zzo38> I don't know; I didn't look at the SIMH.
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07:08:05 <probablymoony> oh, if I were to make MOVAx work for registers i'd probably want to make rn[rx] work too
07:08:09 <esowiki> [[PixelCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71554&oldid=59166 * Voltage2007 * (-579) this thing is a mess - Im fixing the rest of this tomorrow
07:08:42 <shachaf> mov ax already works for registers hth
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07:24:51 <zzo38> They mention a variadic instruction mode. Z-machine has that; the EQUAL? instruction takes a variable number of operands. It succeeds if the first operand is equal to any one of the others.
07:27:57 <probablymoony> zzo38: why one doesn't copy-paste: You may accidentially "fix" immediate mode to act like absolute mode
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07:28:31 <Train> What did you think of the program I sent you earlier, zzo38?
07:29:06 <probablymoony> maybe I should just un-specialize immediate/absolute mode.
07:30:56 <probablymoony> de-specialized, and even got a performance improvement with it :D
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07:35:53 <b_jonas> Today I learned something about the x86_64 intrinsics in clang and rust using llvm. there's no way to write x86_64-specific code to do a floating point addition (whether scalar or vector) with the SSE/AVX instructions and with the x86_64 rules in such a way that the optimizer can't swap the two input arguments of the addition even if it can't prove that that changes nothing, and get full optimization
07:35:59 <b_jonas> from the compiler. there's just no interface in llvm from this, regardless of what function and optimization flags you use.
07:37:16 <b_jonas> llvm is just allowed to swap the argument of the x86_64 intrinsics, and it doesn't matter whether you use the intel intrinsics, the rust interface for the same, or the gcc-style vector operators and builtins, and regardless of what optimization flags you use
07:38:02 <b_jonas> I didn't ask about gcc, but gcc probably also doesn't have an interface for this, because the semantics for these sorts of things tend to have the same rules as in clang
07:39:41 <b_jonas> so if I want to do floating point addition with a deterministic SSE-style output when both arguments are NaN, either I have to add some extra computation, though in practice in most cases you can do that very efficiently, or write inline assembly or similar, in which case you lose on compiler optimizations.
07:39:59 <b_jonas> this is good to know, I didn't know how the semantics of those intrinsics worked.
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08:45:46 <rain1> orbitaldecay: I thought I had something but as i try to work out the details it is falling apart
08:46:09 <rain1> I thought we could try to make a simple translation by considering a mapping like this
08:46:42 <rain1> [] is a no-op, expect it sets flags (this would use scratch space on the tape so the tapes wouldn't be isomorphic)
08:47:15 <rain1> (*) maps to [[][]] and (*()(**)) maps to [[][][[]][[][][]]]
08:48:10 <rain1> to implement it, [ and ] would manipulate some flags on the tape and there would also be a stack of bits i think, which we can access by storing our the stack height and current tape location as unary (to be able to get back to place after working on the stack)
08:51:40 <rain1> [[][][[]][[][][]]]
08:52:02 <rain1> so basically we are analyzing the code as we execute it, empties are discovered and conditioned on to implement * from just []
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09:28:09 <myname> setting flags is not that easy. you need to manuever to the place where the flag is and back
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09:32:48 <rain1> i overlooked that, thank you
09:33:19 <rain1> maybe we need to translate to RBF with < and >
09:35:53 <cpressey> In an FPN (applicative) setting, "+12" is well-formed, as are "+1" and "+", but "12" is not. In an RPN (concatenative) setting, "12+" is well-formed, and so are "12" and "2+" and "+". BUT, "2+" and "+" are arguably not meaningful.
09:38:08 <cpressey> There does seem to be an easy way to make a concatenative version of the SKI calculus, but it's also very cheap and unexciting. S: push S combinator on the stack. K: push K combinator on the stack. A: apply topmost combinator on the stack.
09:40:43 <cpressey> That's the Concatentive Consternation for this morning, we now return you to your regular programming.
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11:27:16 <arseniiv> @tell cpressey <cpressey> BUT, "2+" and "+" are arguably not meaningful. => why not? "2+" adds 2 to the topmost stack element. If we have quotes, "[2+]" may be used somewhere a quote that changes the topmost elem is needed, e. g. in a looping contruct
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11:37:34 <ais523> b_jonas: (non-volatile) inline asm looks like the perfect tool for this, AFAICT it suppresses exactly the compiler optimisations you want to suppress and no others
11:39:22 <ais523> it appears that the optimizer's assumptions for a non-volatile asm are that the same inputs always produce the same outputs and there are no side effects
11:40:04 <ais523> those are true for a non-associative floating point add, and I can't immediately think of any other properties it has
11:40:33 <ais523> of course, this is inherently system-specific, but arguably so is non-associative addition in the first plcae
11:42:11 <ais523> zzo38: I believe that the definition of a Babson task in M:tG should be a position where the opponent wishes for a card, and to win you have to wish for the same card
11:42:32 <ais523> the difficulty of this would presumably depend on the content of the sideboards, but assuming 15 different cards, it seems very difficult unless you can compare the card names somehow
11:42:39 <ais523> regardless of what the cards are
11:42:48 <ais523> (as long as they're all wishable by the opponent)
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11:55:39 <ais523> orbitaldecay: the definition of "simple translation" strikes me as really important from the esoprogramming point of view, even outside any RBF-related contexts
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12:16:11 <ais523> in particular: suppose we generalize the concept of "simple translation" slightly to allow the translation to put additional fixed strings at the start and end of the program, in addition to its other operations
12:16:54 <ais523> with this generalization, is it possible to find a simple translation between any two TC languages? I suspect the answer is "no, but there's a large subset consisting of most practical TC languages that can do it"
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12:17:59 <ais523> in which case we've managed to identify a subset of TC languages which are in a sense more powerful than the others
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12:21:14 <ais523> I think it's also interesting to think about 2-command simple translations of other languages
12:21:36 <ais523> in Underload, for example, it's fun to try to find a simple translation that handles the ( and ) pseudo-commands
12:25:55 <ais523> conjecture: there is no simple translation between brainfuck and Fractran
12:26:16 <ais523> * no generalized simple translation
12:26:37 <ais523> (you can do Fractran → BF, but it seems unlikely that you can do it the other way round)
12:36:22 <ais523> I think the major requirement for permitting a generalized simple translation is having some sort of fairly traditional string literal
12:36:48 <ais523> e.g. you can do it in The Waterfall Model because you can have a large numeric literal that you parse the digits from (other than the last significant) at runtime
12:37:17 <ais523> and you can do it in BF because you can use >+>+++>++ etc. as a string literal equivalent
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12:38:36 <ais523> so a "made out of commands" string literal equivalent is enough
12:38:57 <ais523> oh, trivially simple example that can't do it: Incident
12:39:18 <ais523> it has no way to distinguish between the same section of source code repeated five times, or repeated six times
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13:15:00 <esowiki> [[Disan count]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71556 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) Redirected page to [[Disan Count]]
13:17:40 <esowiki> [[Popular problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71557&oldid=62413 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1)
13:26:04 <esowiki> [[Cortex language 3A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71558&oldid=71538 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+265)
13:26:31 <esowiki> [[Cortex language 3A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71559&oldid=71558 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-24)
13:38:22 <b_jonas> ais523: inline asm has the correct semantics for this. however, for inline asm, the compiler won't parse the assembly statement, so it won't know what instruction is inside it, and so can't use timing information to optimize an inner loop with such an asm correctly. inline asm works if you write the whole critical section in one big asm, or if you are using this outside of a critical section where
13:38:28 <b_jonas> optimization isn't so important, but it won't replace intrinsics if I want to rely on the compiler to produce decent code.
13:39:51 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, this is system-specific, in that there are three or four different rules for handling two NaN inputs in instructions. which is why I said I'm asking for this specifically to get the result that SSE/AVX instructions give, when generating code for x86_64 only.
13:40:13 <b_jonas> you could ask the analogous question for ARM, but I'm much less familiar with ARM, so I didn't try to ask about that.
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13:45:39 <b_jonas> ais523: wish for the same card? it would be too much of cheating if you have a Homing Lightning and mana for it, and the opponent has an Asceticism ton of Clones and mana for them, right?
13:49:43 <esowiki> [[Muriel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71560&oldid=58467 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* String */
13:50:11 <b_jonas> there's probably a similar cheating solution that compares creature types, not names; and there are probably solutions that are slightly less cheating that compare a combination of colors, power/toughness, land types, it's just that it's hard to get a series of 15 cards by comparing just one of those, so you need more tricks.
13:50:40 <b_jonas> s"power/toughness"power/toughness, converted mana cost"
13:51:32 <b_jonas> you could probably use converted mana cost only, using a card like Counterbalance
14:08:01 <orbitaldecay> ais523: Yeah, simple translation seems to capture something significant. I really like your idea of "generalized simple translation" allowing arbitrary strings at the beginning and end of the program.
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14:10:14 <orbitaldecay> I think the definition of "isomorphism between models" needs some work. I'm not quite sure that captures exactly what I'm going for. I was discussing yesterday that between two unbounded tape models you could map 2n to n and use the odd cells to store context, which is kind of outside of the spirit of a simple translation
14:11:02 <orbitaldecay> Maybe simple translation should have it's own page for discussing further?
14:12:07 <rain1> if you allow a prefix then you can do interpreters of string data
14:12:41 <rain1> this was already said though
14:14:58 <orbitaldecay> Hmm, on second thought, would 2n to n work? how do you map backward? n -> n/2 isn't a valid mapping
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14:32:25 <ais523> orbitaldecay: I think there's multiple possible senses of the mapping
14:32:33 <ais523> there are senses in which you look only at halting behaviour
14:32:42 <ais523> and senses in which you look at some of the internal state too
14:32:51 <ais523> the later is hard to define rigorously, though, and leads to some odd results
14:33:18 <orbitaldecay> ais523: yes, I was thinking of redefining solely in terms of halting behavior
14:34:06 <ais523> e.g. think of a Salpynx-style simple translation that works via one command providing input to a second command that's an interpreter
14:34:22 <orbitaldecay> as, I think maybe, if the translated program halts iff the original program halts then the machine states must be isomorphic
14:34:40 <ais523> this can't lead to an internal state mapping in PF to/from RBF because RBF is reversible
14:36:18 <ais523> so, e.g., a no-op containing a loop that executes will lead to some permanent memory that that loop existed on the PF tape
14:36:54 <ais523> but I can't see a reason why that would apply to irreversible languages
14:37:34 <ais523> a separate thing I noticed is that PF (if it exists) does not necessarily have to be reversible
14:38:12 <ais523> the RBF translation of the PF might, when reversed, use command sequences that don't exist in PF; and the PF translation of the RBF might use sequences of commands that happen to be reversible even if the individual commands aren't
14:38:53 <orbitaldecay> ais523: but if there is an RBF translation of PF, and a PF translation of RBF, then there must be PF representations of inverses of PF operators.
14:39:43 <ais523> orbitaldecay: but if you map RBF to PF and back to RBF, the resulting tape may not be the same
14:40:12 <ais523> this seems to be connected to eigenratios in a way, you'd expect an RBF→PF→RBF translation to expand the tape by some proportion
14:40:50 <ais523> it strikes me that part of the problem is that BF derivatives normally have no way to store temporary data without disturbing the existing tape
14:41:04 <ais523> an eigenratio is the speed at which a self-interpreter runs, compared to running the program natively
14:42:02 <orbitaldecay> I'm currently creating a page for simple translations to discuss some of these idea further and flesh out generalizations
14:42:25 <ais523> I was considering creating a page about simple translations too, but it's your idea so you're probably a better person to do it
14:42:31 <orbitaldecay> I'm thinking of defining it so that A halts iff B halts
14:42:44 <ais523> I would consider multiple possible definitions (without fixing a specific definition) because different cases could be interesting
14:43:35 <esowiki> [[Cortex language 3A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71561&oldid=71559 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+372) /* Commands */
14:43:52 <orbitaldecay> Yeah, I agree that different cases should be explored
14:43:58 <esowiki> [[Cortex language 3A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71562&oldid=71561 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22) /* Commands */
14:44:16 <orbitaldecay> But as a start I really like the idea of avoiding getting into isomorphisms between machine states altogether
14:44:49 <orbitaldecay> Hmm, but dont we need some way to define analogous input?
14:48:53 <ais523> I find that I/O often complicates computational class discussions (I/O isn't needed at all to be TC, after all)
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14:49:27 <ais523> it'd be easy enough to come up with a noninteractive-I/O-dependent version of a simple translation, though ("the program halts, and the same input produces the same output")
14:49:39 <ais523> and the interactive I/O version is also obvious, just a little harder to define
14:52:03 <orbitaldecay> Yeah, I think I'm going to keep I/O out of the conversation for now completely
14:55:51 <esowiki> [[Cortex language 3A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71563&oldid=71562 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40)
14:58:18 <esowiki> [[Simple Translation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71564 * Orby * (+1974) Getting started
14:58:42 <orbitaldecay> ais523: wrote an initial definition, feel free to modify and expand
14:59:27 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ais523 * moved [[Simple Translation]] to [[Simple translation]]: caps
14:59:50 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71567&oldid=71565 * Ais523 * (+23) cat
15:00:37 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71568&oldid=71567 * Orby * (+17)
15:03:11 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71569&oldid=71568 * Ais523 * (+177) clarify introduction
15:03:47 <ais523> huh, interesting MediaWiki bug there: "show changes" showed your changes as well as mine, despite the lack of edit conflict
15:04:06 <esowiki> [[Reversible Bitfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71570&oldid=71520 * Orby * (-1658)
15:04:35 <ais523> I wonder if we want the internal state mapping function at all
15:04:48 <ais523> I have the feeling that definitions with and without it are both interesting
15:04:52 <esowiki> [[Nanofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71571&oldid=71523 * Orby * (+6)
15:05:26 <esowiki> [[Picofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71572&oldid=71521 * Orby * (+6)
15:05:59 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71573&oldid=71535 * Orby * (-38)
15:06:07 <esowiki> [[Nanofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71574&oldid=71571 * Ais523 * (-38) remove redundant piping of links
15:06:35 <orbitaldecay> Well, I think we nee the internal state mapping to initialize the machines to the same state
15:07:27 <orbitaldecay> The state being the same on completion is less important I think
15:07:55 <ais523> well, thinking about languages
15:08:04 <ais523> I'm thinking of a simple translation as a mapping of the source code
15:08:10 <ais523> in which case it happens before parsing
15:08:19 <ais523> the current implementation seems to inherently assume that the language is concatenative, doesn't it?
15:08:31 <orbitaldecay> a generalized simple translation could be really useful too
15:08:35 <ais523> (also, somehow I never realised until /just now/ that brainfuck is concatenative)
15:08:56 <orbitaldecay> I originally thought of all this in the context of minimization, but it sounds like you have a bigger vision for it
15:09:12 <esowiki> [[Cortex language 3]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71575&oldid=71527 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-92)
15:09:45 <ais523> OK, so https://esolangs.org/wiki/Pure_BF is a joke
15:09:54 <ais523> but it does seem to be the view of BF-alikes that simple translation is taking
15:10:08 <esowiki> [[Cortex language 3A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71576&oldid=71563 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+92) /* Commands */
15:10:47 <esowiki> [[Cortex language 3]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71577&oldid=71575 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40)
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15:11:25 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71578&oldid=71430 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) /* Cortex language 3 */
15:13:53 <ais523> I guess the issue is that we normally see languages in almost any paradigm as a list of commands, that operate on state, and produce a state as output
15:14:38 <ais523> there are some exceptions, like control flow, and those not coincidentally cause the largest issues when writing simple translations
15:16:36 <orbitaldecay> yeah, mapping the IP to a functional language sounds weird
15:17:01 <orbitaldecay> idea: input and output buffers can be considered part of the state. No special consideration for I/O needed.
15:18:55 <ais523> one application for simple translations is in explaining the difference between the :*()a^ and ~:!()^ subsets of Underload
15:19:13 <ais523> the former subset appears to be a simple translation of Underload; the latter isn't "obviously" a simple translation
15:20:21 <ais523> you should, especially if you're interested in minimization
15:21:50 <arseniiv> int-e (or someone skilled in lambdabot’s workings): I tried to abuse lambdabot again, running this obfuscated code:
15:21:50 <arseniiv> @let data O z=O(z(O z)) -- this is a fixpoint of a functor like in Data.Fix
15:21:50 <arseniiv> > let{e m(O c)=m$fmap(e m)c;a g s=j g:a s(O[g,s]);j=e(fmap(+)(foldr(const.const$0)1)<*>sum)}in a(O[])$O[O[]]
15:21:50 <arseniiv> on my GHCi, it starts spewing out the first elements of the list pretty fast but here the computation just times out. I think I did something wrong, what could that be?
15:22:05 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71579&oldid=71513 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+96) /* Languages */
15:22:17 <ais523> actually for me, one of the most important unanswered questions wrt simple translations at the moment is whether there's some simple, objective way to exclude Salpynx-style translations
15:22:29 <arseniiv> (oh sorry I defined it earlier but that definition hadn’t changed)
15:23:04 <ais523> because those may permit simple translations into anything TC that obeys certain syntactic restrictions
15:24:23 <orbitaldecay> okay, run this salpynx-style translation by me again
15:24:57 <ais523> the basic idea is that we have some sort of state that records whether or not we're in the middle of a loop
15:25:05 <ais523> commands run immediately if we aren't
15:25:22 <ais523> if we are, they just add themselves to some data structure, and then ] implements the entire loop
15:25:45 <ais523> the advantage of this is that there's no need for any PF command to translate to an unbalanced loop in RBF
15:26:04 <ais523> * the translation of ) implements the entire loop
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15:27:01 <ais523> so you can create two commands, 1 and 0, where 1 just implements an internal counter, and 0 does all the real work, depending on context either executing a command, or storing that command in a data structure for later use
15:27:14 <ais523> 0 is in effect an RBF self-interpreter
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15:27:24 <ais523> then you just map each RBF command to some string of 1s followed by 0
15:27:56 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71580&oldid=71515 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* C */ + [[Cortex language 3A]]
15:28:05 <orbitaldecay> but how do you express the inverse translation table?
15:28:41 <esowiki> [[Cortex language 3A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71581&oldid=71576 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+460) /* Examples */
15:28:43 <ais523> the inverse translation table is the hard part; 1 basically just has to increment a counter (although you need a complex tape encoding to /have/ a temporary counter in RBF)
15:28:54 <ais523> and 0 is an entire RBF self-interpreter with some additional functionality
15:29:11 <arseniiv> (oh, that translation technique reminds me how I implemented my first incomplete forth-like with quotes: if we are inside a quote, we continue completing it, then we push it on the stack finally—if we aren’t in a quote still; thought there are no more similarities regarding "]", as the evaluation would be a different operation, "!")
15:29:34 <orbitaldecay> is it possible to do that and maintain equivalence under isomorphism?
15:29:36 <ais523> I guess you can think of it as an incremental self-interpreter
15:29:59 <ais523> orbitaldecay: no, but only through chance: because RBF is reversible the self-interpreter has no way to delete the program from the tape once it's finished
15:30:14 <ais523> this is specific to the fact that RBF is reversible
15:30:22 <ais523> and the fact that RBF programs with unbalanced () aren't valid
15:30:44 <orbitaldecay> yeah I guess you just erase all the temp stuff when you're done interpretting
15:30:48 <ais523> the point is that you don't need the translation of, say, *>(* to mean anything
15:31:02 <ais523> so the self-interpreter can check to see if we have a complete program with balanced parens
15:31:19 <ais523> if we do, it can evaluate it so far and then delete all the temporary state it used (except that it can't because RBF is reversible)
15:31:37 <ais523> if we don't, then the definition doesn't place constraints on what happens because the input program wasn't valid
15:32:39 <orbitaldecay> What if we require the machine state to be isomorphic after executing each command?
15:33:21 <ais523> I guess what you want to require is that the instruction pointer moves in the same way in both languages
15:33:40 <ais523> your "isomorphic after each command" seems to require an equivalence of instruction pointer movement to even be well-defined
15:33:56 <ais523> and the IP movement equivalent is sufficient by itself to ban Salpynx-style translations
15:34:02 <ais523> but, it seems hard to define rigorously
15:34:26 <orbitaldecay> yeah, particularly because the source and destination programs don't need to require the same number of symbols
15:34:33 <ais523> you can define it rigorously for RBF but I don't think it generalises to other languages
15:36:04 <orbitaldecay> I mean, the easiest and most restrictive way of dealing with it is to simply require that the languages use the same model
15:36:43 <ais523> hmm, suppose you add to both languages a command that has some observable effect on the outside world, but doesn't affect the program's internal state
15:36:45 <orbitaldecay> that's good for talking about minimalizations of languages
15:36:56 <ais523> now you add it at the same point in both programs
15:37:14 <ais523> if the control flow is the same, it should run the same number of times in both programs
15:37:34 <ais523> but because it isn't allowed to affect the program's internal state, a Salpynx-style translation can't notice it exists
15:37:40 <ais523> so if you put it inside a loop it runs the wrong number of times
15:38:10 <ais523> I think this works for any programming language that allows an-arbitrary-effect-at-an-arbitrary point
15:38:24 <ais523> which may go some distance to coming up with a definition of what AAEAAAP actually means
15:39:29 <orbitaldecay> I am inclined to require a simple translation to use the same model for both languages and generalize from there, maybe a "generalized simple translation"
15:39:44 <orbitaldecay> could involve something like what you're talking about
15:40:15 <ais523> my #1 concern is making the definition as rigorous and non-corner-casey as possible
15:41:40 <orbitaldecay> I am going to modify the simple translation page to require the same model as that's the spirit in which it was created. From there let's talk about generalizing it between models.
15:41:51 <ais523> anyway, I believe that a definition of simple translation that a) focuses entirely on halt behaviour, not internal state, b) allows an arbitrary prefix and suffix
15:42:02 <ais523> is an entirely different concept from yours but also randomly happens to be very useful for thinking about languages
15:42:20 <ais523> even though the definition is almost the same, it now permits almost anything (because it permits interpreters that look at a string literal)
15:42:53 <ais523> and the nice thing about permitting almost anything TC is that it /doesn't/ permit some things that are TC, which is valuable information in its own right
15:43:23 <ais523> I was hoping to call that "generalized simple translation" but perhaps it needs its own name
15:44:25 <ais523> anyway, even looking at the small picture, RBF→PF→RBF simple translation is a really interesting problem (I believe it's possible without Salpynx-style approaches, although you might need a lot of temporary tape space)
15:44:37 <ais523> and Underload→2-command Underload→Underload simple translation is also interesting
15:44:59 <orbitaldecay> Yeah, I am quite interested in exploring underload minimizations in this context
15:45:09 <ais523> we already have a translation that handles everything except "complex" (…), where the commands are (~)(:)(^)(a)(*)(!!!!!!) and ^
15:45:39 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71582&oldid=71569 * Orby * (-277) Changing definition to require same machine model between languages
15:46:11 <ais523> Underload is TC using finitely many possible (…) commands; the usual set is (~)(:)(!)(*)(a)(^), and it's trivial to break down any existing Underload programs to use only those 6 (…) commands
15:46:59 <ais523> and you can produce a simple translation between (~) (:) (!) (*) (a) (^) ~ : ! * a ^ Underload and (~)(:)(^)(a)(*)(!!!!!!) ^ Underload
15:47:31 <ais523> but what's piqued my interest is: in the full version of Underload, can you produce a simple translation of ( and ) on their own?
15:47:54 <ais523> I guess you could call this a "lexical simple translation" because it's based on the characters of the source code, not the individual commands
15:49:21 <orbitaldecay> I am concerned that the current definition of simple translation still allows for salpynx-style translations
15:50:12 <ais523> the best part of Underload minimization, IMO, is when we discovered that ~ can be expressed in terms of the other commands, but it's really complicated to do so
15:50:31 <ais523> the shortest known implementation of ~ in terms of the others is a(!a)(!)(a*a*:*^!a*^):*^ which is just ridiculous :-)
15:52:37 <ais523> ^ul (a)(b)a(!a)(!)(a*a*:*^!a*^):*^SS
15:52:50 <ais523> ^ul (a)(b)a(!a)(!)(a*a*:*^!a*^)^SS
15:52:57 <ais523> ^ul (a)(b)a(!a)(!)(a*a*:*^!a*^)^SSS
15:53:03 <ais523> ^ul (a)(b)a(!a)(!)(a*a*:*^!a*^)^SSSS
15:53:03 <fungot> b!(a) ...out of stack!
15:54:25 <b_jonas> oh, it doesn't like whitespace
15:54:40 <b_jonas> ^ul (a)(b)a(!a)(!)(a*a*:*^!a*^):*^S(-)SS
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15:56:31 <b_jonas> ^ right, that's why you can't test with just SS
15:56:46 <ais523> b_jonas: I was being sloppy, I know
15:56:51 <ais523> but it's good enough for testing when you know you aren't cheating
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15:59:35 <ais523> what we really need for this is the A command from Underlambda
15:59:50 <ais523> it puts parentheses around the /entire/ stack, not just the top element
16:00:03 <ais523> so, e.g. (a)(b)AS prints "(a)(b)"
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16:28:56 <esowiki> [[W (A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71583&oldid=71402 * LegionMammal978 * (-11) Undo revision 71402 by [[Special:Contributions/LegionMammal978|LegionMammal978]] ([[User talk:LegionMammal978|talk]])
16:28:59 <esowiki> [[Resource]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71584&oldid=71403 * LegionMammal978 * (-11) Undo revision 71403 by [[Special:Contributions/LegionMammal978|LegionMammal978]] ([[User talk:LegionMammal978|talk]])
16:29:01 <esowiki> [[Tq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71585&oldid=71404 * LegionMammal978 * (-11) Undo revision 71404 by [[Special:Contributions/LegionMammal978|LegionMammal978]] ([[User talk:LegionMammal978|talk]])
16:32:44 <lambdabot> Data constructor not in scope: BF :: t0 -> terror: Variable not in scope...
16:32:49 <rain1> is it possible to differentiate brainfuck programs?
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16:34:36 <rain1> it has a nice minimalism
16:42:46 <arseniiv> (BF)′ = B′F + BF′. A brain derivative may well be psyche, but I’ll abstain from finding the second one :?
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16:50:03 <b_jonas> `` \! underload "(hello )S"
16:50:11 <HackEso> Attempt to execute unknown command 117
16:50:29 <b_jonas> where is that error message coming from?
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16:54:19 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71586&oldid=71582 * Orby * (+280)
16:55:15 <int-e> `` \! "underload (hello )S"
16:56:42 <HackEso> Attempt to execute unknown command 117
17:00:23 <int-e> `` echo -n "ul" | cut -d' ' -f2-
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17:03:08 <int-e> (that doesn't cut it)
17:07:15 <esowiki> [[User:Willicoder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71587&oldid=71382 * Willicoder * (+143)
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17:22:07 <tswett[m]> a(b(c + d + e) + c(d + e) + de) + b(c(d + e) + de) + cde
17:22:52 <tswett[m]> If you want to write a Boolean function, one way is as an expression such as the above.
17:23:10 <tswett[m]> But those can get cumbersome; at some point you want to switch from expressions to circuits.
17:26:51 <tswett[m]> a(b(c(d + e + f + g) + d(e + f + g) + e(f + g) + fg) + c(d(e + f + g) + e(f + g) + fg) + d(e(f + g) + fg) + efg) + b(c(d(e + f + g) + e(f + g) + fg) + d(e(f + g) + fg) + efg) + c(d(e(f + g) + fg) + e(f + g) + fg) + defg
17:27:09 <tswett[m]> I think that's how to write the 4-of-7 majority gate as an expression.
17:31:39 <esowiki> [[Nanofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71588&oldid=71574 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-38)
17:32:49 <esowiki> [[Nanofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71589&oldid=71588 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Reversible Bitfuck */
17:35:04 <esowiki> [[Small]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71590&oldid=71167 * LegionMammal978 * (-45) fixed example
17:35:37 <esowiki> [[Small]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71591&oldid=71590 * LegionMammal978 * (+17) fixed code
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17:37:58 <esowiki> [[Small]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71592&oldid=71591 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Interpreter */
17:38:13 <esowiki> [[Small]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71593&oldid=71592 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) /* Interpreter */
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17:40:21 <esowiki> [[W (A)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71595&oldid=71594 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2)
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19:25:56 <esowiki> [[Conditional brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71597 * Orby * (+1609) Created page with "Conditional brainfuck (CBF) is a brainfuck variant discovered by [[User:Orby]] in May of 2020. =Model= CBF uses a tape of n-bit wrapping cells which is unbounded on the right...."
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19:36:49 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71599&oldid=71573 * Orby * (+96)
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19:39:41 <esowiki> [[FLIPER Computer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71600&oldid=58030 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) /* Examples */ cat
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20:16:53 <Sgeo> Would conscious life be more likely to emerge in a randomly seeded Game of Life universe (with no known small replicators) or in a HighLife universe (with a known small replicator)?
20:18:45 <Sgeo> (Although I guess GoL still has replicators likely to be a lot smaller than anything resembling actual life?)
20:19:06 <fizzie> I imagine you'll just have to conduct some simulations to find out.
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20:41:52 <ais523> orbitaldecay: why do you keep using <h1> headings on the wiki? those are meant to be for the heading at the top of the page
20:42:01 <ais523> or for special cases where you need something bigger than the normal <h2>
21:05:55 <zzo38> The shuffling function I implemented in TeXnicard seems to work now, in addition to the random number function. (I implemented my own rather than using that of SQLite or of the operating system, because I will need the random numbers to be reproducible.)
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21:30:12 <orbitaldecay> ais523: Ok, I'm really interested in Overload due to it's close relationship with unlambda and my recent foray into adding the forth : ; to stack based languages
21:31:07 <orbitaldecay> I made a bootable iso last week of what I'm calling Skiforth, which is basically postfix unlamda with the forth style : ; word definitions
21:31:43 <orbitaldecay> The forth style word definitions are crazy powerful when combined with basically any stack based language
21:32:12 <orbitaldecay> I should say specifically postfix stack based languages
21:33:51 <orbitaldecay> I don't understand the overload ^ operator, could you explain the model?
21:42:03 <imode> forth style word definitions are insanely powerful. forth without random access is nearly unbearable!
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22:09:05 <Train> I golfed my addition program.
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22:18:25 <zseri> huh, did freenode have a hiccup?
22:21:33 <Train> zzo38, I golfed my addition.
22:21:40 <Train> 357 bytes down to 114.
22:23:41 <Train> Here's the new one:
22:23:47 <Train> SdaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaV
22:24:08 <Train> Do you know how I can represent it so it doesn't fill spaces
22:24:25 <Train> Because it doesn't show the code very well on here.
22:24:35 <Train> Does freenode support latex?
22:24:52 <zzo38> You should perhaps post with sprunge and then post the link.
22:25:24 <Train> http://sprunge.us/9HUcOz
22:25:25 <zzo38> Freenode is a IRC server; it isn't the job of the IRC server to support LaTeX, although maybe some clients do I don't know (although mine doesn't).
22:27:46 <zzo38> I do have TeX on my computer, although it is Plain TeX and not LaTeX.
22:28:19 <Train> Alright. Can you see the sprunge?
22:28:47 <Train> What do you think?
22:29:02 <Train> Of the new addition program?
22:29:55 <zzo38> It look like OK to me.
22:30:25 <Train> It's nice and compact.
22:31:33 <Train> I'm quite proud of the little relay down the bottom, since it's so compact.
22:33:37 <Train> I saw one of your esolangs, memfractal. Quite a cool concept.
22:37:07 <Train> https://esolangs.org/logs/2002-12-14.html is the first log I can see. How long has this channel been around for?
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22:51:16 <Train> zzo38, I'm still curious about your method for finding quines. Can you elaborate?
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23:02:17 <zzo38> I don't have any method; I just did it.
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23:04:46 <b_jonas> I do have a method. It's that I create a quine by making a list of strings and indexing into them from a list of indexes.
23:05:29 <b_jonas> `perl -eprint+("`perl -eprint+(","\"",",","\\",")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]
23:05:30 <HackEso> `perl -eprint+("`perl -eprint+(","\"",",","\\",")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]
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23:12:52 <Train> I can see how you worked out it would be one line long, but the actual interspersing of NOPs was amazing.
23:19:13 <zzo38> Well, I don't really have a method.
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00:10:24 <zzo38> Is the word NIHONIUM in the latest version of the Scrabble dictionary?
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00:36:07 <ais523> orbitaldecay: ^ in Underload is basically an eval operation
00:36:14 <ais523> it takes the top stack element and runs it as though it were a program
00:37:21 <ais523> the only way to do a loop in Underload is to use a chain of ^s to do recursion
00:37:35 <b_jonas> yeah, but orbitaldecay mentioned "Overload", not "Underload". I don't know what the former is, but I know that there are other ^ operators than the underload ones.
00:38:32 <b_jonas> `! underload ((loop )S:^):^
00:38:33 <HackEso> loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop loop lo
00:41:11 <ais523> b_jonas: I assume it was just a mistake
00:41:16 <ais523> Overload was a language that I never finished designing
00:41:19 <ais523> Underload is a subset of it
00:41:40 <ais523> many of the operations in Overload would look /really/ out of place in an Underload-alike, e.g. it had pointers, and goto commands
00:42:07 <ais523> but it was in a very unfinished state and I never wrote my ideas down
00:42:25 <ais523> (it wouldn't really have worked as a language, I don't think; Underload was how I salvaged it into something useful)
00:43:26 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, I inveted Consumer Society by trying to think of a slightly larger language, then realized how you need very few rules to get something easy to remember and elegant.
00:46:34 <zzo38> I have a document of how Lore Seeker makes up random booster packs for official and unofficial sets of Magic: the Gathering cards, which are many different ways depending on which set, including "naive algorithm", "taw's algorithm" (which replaces five of the common slots with color locked slots), "Reuben's algorithm", and a few others.
00:47:37 <zzo38> What Lore Seeker calls "naive algorithm" can be implemented in TeXnicard as: create view deck_draft(cards,count,options) as select make_deck(id),1,0x0 from cards where rarity = 'B' union all select make_deck(id),10,0x0001 from cards where rarity = 'C' union all select make_deck(id),3,0x0001 from cards where rarity = 'U' union all select make_deck(id,'w',case when rarity = 'R' then 2 else 1 end),1,0 from cards where rarity in ('R','M')
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00:56:41 <zzo38> What card games need algorithms which cannot be represented in this way?
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02:17:15 <Train> zzo38, do you have any ideas for what I should make next in trainCode? I'm taking a break from the minsky machine.
02:19:59 <zzo38> Train: I don't know; sorry
02:23:59 <imode> forth "grammar" is pretty complex. almost impossible to verify properly that you'll use something in a way that's intended. if you design a linguistic feature and users don't use it correctly, it's nearly impossible to determine why unless it's something obvious.
02:27:37 <Train> Have any of you guys ever tried your hand at artificial life?
02:29:59 <Train> They have evolved the ability to spontaneously regenerate on a molecular level. Any suggestions on how I could stop this?
02:30:23 <imode> I mean. what're you authoring your simulation in.
02:30:52 <imode> artificial life usually implies that you've got a simulator for your "organisms" to live in.
02:31:36 <imode> okay... so what's it written in. how are you defining the rules for the components of your organism to behave.
02:31:41 <Train> It's made in processing, and since this is the most technical internet forum I've found so far, I'm wondering if you guys can help me.
02:32:15 <Train> It's not online yet.
02:32:24 <imode> uh-huh. got a paste that of code?
02:33:50 <Train> but here's the basics:
02:33:56 <Train> there are n types of particle
02:34:23 <Train> each type of particle is either attracted, repulsed or neutral towards other particles, and this is inverse-squarely proportional to distance
02:35:57 <imode> congratz, you've invented an n-body sim.
02:36:59 <Train> And I created about 125 of each type. and ran it.
02:38:16 <Train> they form stable clusters rapidly
02:41:53 <Train> to the point where I can't destroy them
03:04:09 <Train> How can I change it so they don't do this.
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04:36:16 <Train> Ah, zzo38! Are you always online?
04:36:35 <zzo38> Usually. Not quite always.
04:37:35 <Train> It's very peculiar. Every time that I log on, you are online. Are you semi-afk on irc, and doing something else, or do you just sit here, waiting for people so you can catch them as soon as they enter?
04:38:22 <zzo38> I do many other things too.
04:38:35 <shachaf> Train: Every time you log on, you're also online.
04:38:35 <zzo38> I was working on TeXnicard, for example.
04:38:46 <shachaf> So I don't know why you find it surprising that someone else is.
04:41:13 <Train> shachaf, let the probability of me being online at any given time be x, a value between 0 and 1 and the probability of zzo38 being online be y, a value between 0 and 1. When I log on, zzo38 has always been online, indicating a very high value of y regardless of the value of x (which is anyway fairly low). This y-value is almost 1 and as such I am
04:41:13 <Train> surprised at such a high value. Are you not?
04:41:40 <shachaf> I don't know, should I expect them to be independent?
04:42:19 <Train> from esolangs.org/logs, I find that there is a correlation of ~0.3
04:42:45 <Train> It's not enormous, so they are mostly independent, and the high y-value makes the correlation higher.
04:42:58 <Train> Why are we discussing this?
04:43:02 <shachaf> It sounds like you already know the answer to "Are you always online?".
04:43:52 <Train> No, I checked it after zzo38 said he was generally online most of the time. A quick check of https://esolangs.org/logs/2020-04.html and https://esolangs.org/logs/2020-05.html is all that I needed to obtain my values.
04:44:46 <zzo38> What time zone are you in?
04:48:20 <Train> A long way from anywhere.
04:54:58 <Train> No, I'm joking. I don't work for the US air force, and I won't give my location away to random internet strangers.
04:55:31 <Train> And I'm also at least 8560 miles away from anywhere that uses GMT+12.
04:56:09 <Train> That is a terrifying smiley.
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05:28:56 <imode> train must be young.
05:29:49 <zzo38> OK, but what makes you believe that, though?
05:32:13 <imode> just seems like it. was young once.
05:34:15 <pikhq> Youth is such a distinctive thing.
05:36:33 * pikhq finds the days of hiding physical location online so weird now
05:53:58 <imode> large-scale social media has encouraged individuals to share data in an attempt at forming a personal connection, as if opening your actual, personal self in the form of datapoints about your real life will help make connections. it's a ploy to get your data and market to you. you can form a connection with another human without ever knowing anything about their real-life endeavors.
05:54:29 <imode> in fact, it's probably better. you learn how to accept people for who they are despite "who" they are.
05:54:53 <zzo38> Also, lie if you want to.
05:55:01 <shachaf> Please get my data and market to me!
05:55:03 <imode> yeah. but that's your freedom.
05:55:12 <imode> shachaf: marketing to you would be a herculian effort.
05:55:36 <imode> I have no idea what you like!
05:55:51 <shachaf> Well, that's your job to decide as a marketer.
05:56:01 <imode> woah woah, I never signed up for that. :P
05:56:30 <imode> 200 advertisements for meow mix, got it.
05:57:02 <shachaf> OK, don't blame me for your terrible marketing skills.
06:00:18 <pikhq> shachaf's preferences are a little easier to discern irl
06:00:32 <pikhq> ... not easy at all, i've got like one or two additional things to add in there, but hey
06:11:29 <zzo38> One question of the hacker test says if you own a flowchart template. I actually do have a flowchart template from IBM.
06:12:54 <shachaf> whoa, what can you market to me?
06:13:19 <zzo38> I am not a marketer.
06:23:15 <pikhq> shachaf: i'm pretty sure it's scows
06:24:30 <pikhq> good sir or madam, would you like to buy a scow?
06:25:11 <shachaf> It all depends on the price.
06:26:23 <shachaf> Hmm, I'd like to buy software that isn't terrible.
06:26:28 <shachaf> I guess I'd pay a lot for that.
06:27:22 <pikhq> afraid the best i can do is random cute things
06:27:40 <shachaf> What's the deal with people writing interfaces like make_foo().with_thing(true).with_other_thing(5).all_done_now()?
06:27:47 <pikhq> not quite as good as software that isn't terrible, but can make you feel better about the software that is terrible
06:28:38 <pikhq> If you put newlines before the dots it ends up looking almost "clean"
06:28:43 <pikhq> if you ignore the nonsense of course
06:28:53 <shachaf> I guess this is popular in Java land. But I saw a Rust library that does it now, and I've seen it in other languages.
06:29:06 <shachaf> Just seems kind of silly. I guess it's fine.
06:29:19 <pikhq> The Java programmers don't just stay in Java land, I'm sad to report.
06:29:20 <shachaf> Fortunately C doesn't support this idiom.
06:29:36 <pikhq> C has its own downsides, of course.
06:30:10 <shachaf> But what are the better options?
06:30:13 <zzo38> The problem with C is the confusing type syntax. (Well, it is one of them.)
06:30:50 <pikhq> Hardly ever is any given language going to be strictly "better" than the other, imo
06:31:01 <pikhq> All language decisions come with tradeoffs.
06:31:25 <pikhq> It's a matter of which sacrifices you're willing to make for which benefits, really
06:31:25 <shachaf> OK, but what can I use in practice for a thing that I might use C for right now?
06:31:41 <pikhq> Best choices are C, C++, and Rust in that general space
06:31:44 <zzo38> Depend what you are making, I think.
06:32:02 <shachaf> Rust seems to be going way in the wrong direction.
06:33:06 <myname> why do you think rust is going in the wrong direction?
06:34:50 <zzo38> There are many good features of C that other programming languages don't do so well.
06:35:39 <myname> also, what's your suggestion to handle make_foo().with_thing(true).with_other_thing(5).all_done_now() better without sacrificing a reasonable type system
06:37:07 <pikhq> it's been all downhill since church
06:37:25 <myname> i see, you are a js dev
06:37:38 <pikhq> no, just a smartass
06:37:42 <pikhq> and professional yaml dev :/
06:37:53 <shachaf> Can I market some YAML to you?
06:38:21 <pikhq> I have > 1 lines of YAML already, it's far too many
06:38:21 <myname> shachaf: what's such a good c feature?
06:39:13 <myname> whenever i think of c, i fail to think of any positives
06:39:44 <shachaf> It is pretty simple and mostly corresponds to how computers work.
06:39:58 <shachaf> Not that it maximizes either one.
06:40:17 <myname> well, it's macro assembler, but i don't see that as an advantage
06:40:56 <myname> you don't need to write how computers work. that will more likely produce bad code if you aren't an expert
06:41:18 <shachaf> I only want to be able to write code that corresponds to how computers work.
06:41:25 <shachaf> But most languages won't let you do that.
06:41:37 <shachaf> There are certainly features that would improve C.
06:42:06 <myname> write assembly, then. modern c compilers do stuff you would never imagine while writing your c code
06:43:16 <zzo38> C does have many good features, such as pointer arithmetic, setjmp/longjmp, macros, etc. But many things it doesn't do so well that assembly language is doing much better.
06:44:01 <myname> you can do that in rust, too, if you really wanted to. there's just virtually no reason to do so
06:44:57 <shachaf> Say you want to write a program that doesn't use malloc but has other allocation strategies. Doesn't Rust fight you all the time?
06:45:13 <myname> rust tries to remove as many errors as possible during compile time. big fan of that approach
06:45:55 <myname> what do you mean by that? you could easily write your own allocator and use that
06:46:09 <myname> in fact, the api is way easier to handle than that of c
06:46:15 <dnm> Since I'm idling in #esoteric, I think I mostly want to echo imode.
06:46:32 <myname> like, dealloc will get a pointer and the amount of memory to free
06:46:40 <myname> no need to keep track of sizes of data
06:46:49 <dnm> I don't know if Forth even counts as esoteric, actually. But of those recently mentioned...
06:47:23 <shachaf> Well, if you use arena allocation, you don't even need to call dealloc. But Rust is all about destructors and RAII and things like that, I think?
06:48:45 <myname> in safe code, it is, yeah. how's that a problem?
06:49:16 <dnm> shachaf: Consider Ada?
06:49:16 <shachaf> I mean, the things I'm talking about aren't even the real problem.
06:49:37 <pikhq> I will not solve these problems for you.
06:49:44 <pikhq> I'm sorry, I'm a busy girl.
06:50:00 <dnm> shachaf: Not a real one?
06:50:19 <shachaf> Maybe for specialized things.
06:50:39 <dnm> shachaf: I guess I missed what the scenario is/constraints are
06:51:25 <dnm> Oh wait. Was it this? <shachaf> I only want to be able to write code that corresponds to how computers work.
06:51:45 <pikhq> Yeah, I definitely won't be helpful for that.
06:52:10 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure dnm was suggesting Ada Lovelace.
06:52:25 <dnm> I mean, I could take a lot of issue with the idea that C is how computers work. But.
06:52:28 <shachaf> I'm confused about usage. Are you Ada Lovelace's namesake, or is she yours?
06:52:42 <shachaf> dnm: Well, I granted that!
06:52:51 <pikhq> I think she's my namesake.
06:53:13 <pikhq> Not a phrase that comes up much though
06:53:20 <dnm> shachaf: I was just saying Ada (as a language) could be considered re: <shachaf> Say you want to write a program that doesn't use malloc but has other allocation strategies. Doesn't Rust fight you all the time?
06:53:53 <pikhq> Huh, no, I'm her namesake apparently.
06:53:55 <shachaf> That's what I would have said, but then someone else was confused and now I'm confused.
06:54:01 <pikhq> English. Such a weird language.
06:54:03 <dnm> S'ok. Me too.
06:54:37 <dnm> imode: Speaking of Forth, you hacking anything in or adjacent to it?
06:54:38 <shachaf> The word "namesake" makes me think of the play Arcadia, where someone says "your illustrious namesake".
06:55:03 <pikhq> This is definitely more confusing than the mere namespace collision that is sharing a name with a programming language
06:55:23 <pikhq> Which is not very common, thankfully, so it usually doesn't matter
06:55:26 <shachaf> I guess Ada isn't directly mentioned in that play, though Byron is.
06:55:34 <shachaf> Maybe one character is based on her?
06:56:39 <shachaf> pikhq: Well, no one ever talks about Ada the programming language, whereas Lovelace is one of the only two people anyone ever names for "women in computing" for some reason.
06:57:01 <shachaf> So I imagine that collision happens a lot more.
06:57:27 <pikhq> It's a lovely name though.
06:58:48 <imode> dnm: yeah, I have a language called `mode` that's... kinda close to Forth?
06:59:18 <zzo38> I do sometimes use 6502 assembly language and Glulx assembly language, and sometimes write a program with more than one programming language, e.g. TeXnicard is written half in C, half in PostScript, and half in SQL.
06:59:21 <imode> it's pretty minimalist. the only single data structure you manipulate is a deque.
06:59:28 <imode> instead of two stacks.
06:59:39 <dnm> zzo38: I appreciate hand-written PostScript.
07:00:01 <shachaf> zzo38: How many total halves are in TeXnicard?
07:00:11 <dnm> imode: Neat. What'd you implement it in?
07:00:14 <shachaf> I would love for the answer to be two halves, using a complicated polyglot technique.
07:00:47 <imode> the concurrent version is implemented as a preprocessor that generates lists of C preprocessor tokens, which flatten out into C code.
07:01:18 <zzo38> dnm: Yes, that is all I use PostScript for. I think PostScript isn't very good as a protocol or a document storage format, but as a programming language it is not bad, especially for doing graphics.
07:01:20 <imode> the non-concurrent version does the same, only it actually flattens out into if/while statements.
07:01:44 <dnm> imode: URL?
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07:02:08 <zzo38> shachaf: TeXnicard is not made of "halves", I think.
07:02:56 <imode> dnm: https://git.imode.tech/?p=mode;a=tree;h=refs/heads/master;hb=refs/heads/master it's pretty old, but eh.
07:04:22 <imode> the preprocessor is a simple flattening macro system. you take a token, you see if it has a definition, and then you slap that definition in the middle of your program source.
07:04:27 <imode> rinse and repeat until reduced.
07:05:20 <imode> this version generates a list of function pointers to be executed.
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07:12:05 <dnm> imode: Cool! This looks pretty clean, too!
07:12:49 <imode> thanks! the only fundamental manipulation/shuffling ops are dup, drop, swap and last.
07:13:07 <imode> last moves something from the end of the queue to the head of the queue. all other operations, like dup, take items from the head and enqueue results to the tail.
07:13:40 <imode> so you can make your queue look like and behave like a stack if you want.
07:13:49 <zzo38> Also, in TeXnicard, PostScript codes can call SQL codes.
07:14:04 <imode> all other forth primitives (even `pick`!) can be implemented as compound macros.
07:17:02 <imode> this particular version includes concurrency. so you can spawn up lightweight processes and communicate synchronously between them. you can simulate functions by spinning up a process, sending it data, and then waiting for the result to be sent back.
07:18:44 <imode> haven't mapped 'em to threads yet.
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13:50:14 <esowiki> [[VALGOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71618&oldid=71598 * LegionMammal978 * (-123) fixed with more recent link
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14:00:32 <esowiki> [[11CORTLANG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71619&oldid=71453 * LegionMammal978 * (+64) /* Hello, World! */ cat
14:06:14 <esowiki> [[Afz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71620&oldid=68244 * LegionMammal978 * (+45) cat
14:20:57 <esowiki> [[Apple Pie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71621&oldid=58443 * LegionMammal978 * (+74) cat
14:23:32 <esowiki> [[Asig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71622&oldid=39165 * LegionMammal978 * (+88) cat
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15:46:47 <esowiki> [[Three Star Programmer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71623&oldid=54863 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Variants */ pyfix
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16:01:04 <esowiki> [[User talk:Sinjoro]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71624 * LegionMammal978 * (+172) Created page with "Do you currently have a Python interpreter written for [[PureBrainz]]? ~~~~"
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16:24:36 <esowiki> [[Butterbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71625&oldid=71483 * Fwander * (-1)
16:26:36 <PsDw> [ 1 + 2 ; 3 + 4
16:26:36 <j-bot> PsDw: |domain error
16:28:48 <PsDw> [ >. / 1 6 5 x
16:28:48 <j-bot> PsDw: |syntax error
16:28:48 <j-bot> PsDw: | >./ 1 6 5 x
16:28:58 <PsDw> [ >. / x 1 6 5
16:28:59 <j-bot> PsDw: |syntax error
16:28:59 <j-bot> PsDw: | >./ x 1 6 5
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18:39:12 <rain1> http://r6.ca/blog/20190223T161625Z.html
18:44:41 <FireFly> rain1: "You don't have permission to access this resource."
18:48:44 <zzo38> I do not have a problem accessing it with Lynx.
18:50:30 <FireFly> I get a 403 Forbidden via both Firefox and curl
18:51:16 <zzo38> Try Lynx then, and see if that works. If that doesn't work either, try using a different proxy, maybe.
18:51:30 <FireFly> so I'm going to assume the server doesn't like me, rather than there being something weird with my request
18:52:06 <rain1> https://pastebin.com/J47FRwGx here is a copy of the page
18:52:18 <zzo38> FireFly: Yes, that would seem so, it look like to me
18:52:19 <FireFly> I'm using a residential connection from a Swedish ISP, not sure what'd be weird about that o.o
18:59:10 <zzo38> Is it because you set the language header to Swedish instead of English? Maybe they don't have a version of that document in Swedish.
18:59:39 <FireFly> I think I request english primarily, with swedish as a secondary choice
18:59:54 <FireFly> it'd be a pretty weird reason for a 403 to me, oh well
19:01:13 <zzo38> Yes, if your request says English, then that shouldn't be that problem, and even if you do specify only languages they don't have, presumably if there is an error code due to that at all, it should be 406 and not 403, I think.
19:06:30 <b_jonas> I also set all my browsers to request English. only on very few sites does that prove a problem. Most sites just ignore those headers anyway.
19:16:32 <zzo38> Do you like my "separations output format"? It is not currently implemented, but may be implemented in TeXnicard and possibly other programs too in future they might find it useful to implement this kind of file format.
19:17:08 <zzo38> It is meant as a simple raster format for printing.
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19:32:22 <zzo38> Although, maybe commands should be added to specify such things as rendering intent and so on (programs that do not understand these commands can ignore them).
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20:36:48 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71626&oldid=71494 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+224)
20:40:59 <esowiki> [[Unary Filesystem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71627&oldid=71503 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+141)
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20:45:44 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * EvilMuffinHa * New user account
20:46:14 <esowiki> [[Resource]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71628&oldid=71584 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Useful Instructions (I am not sure whether they are useful in restricted source contests though) */ fix header
20:49:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71629&oldid=71540 * EvilMuffinHa * (+214) /* Introductions */
20:53:55 <b_jonas> fungot, you're got at remembering things. when does the patent on automatic squirrel feeders expire?
20:53:56 <fungot> b_jonas: i don't disagree with your point, but i think it tries to execute it
20:54:09 <b_jonas> execute the squirrels? oh, my!
20:54:25 <b_jonas> Taneb: fungot is shedding light on one of your nefarious plots
20:54:25 <fungot> b_jonas: got a test button working in awt... now on the rest
21:04:26 <fizzie> fungot: What are you working on there?
21:04:26 <fungot> fizzie: e.g. by using english i make it more verbose :) let me do
21:04:40 <fizzie> I guess I'll back off and leave you to it.
21:05:45 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71630 * EvilMuffinHa * (+876) Created page with "'''Rhoam''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:EvilMuffinHa]] in [[:Category:2019|2019]] in which there are only 3 characters. == Syntax == Rhoam has a..."
21:06:23 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71631&oldid=71630 * EvilMuffinHa * (+24)
21:06:49 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71632&oldid=71631 * EvilMuffinHa * (+6)
21:07:44 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71633&oldid=71632 * EvilMuffinHa * (+1)
21:11:08 <esowiki> [[Wrapping Rhoam]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71634 * EvilMuffinHa * (+1004) Created page with "'''Wrapping Rhoam''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:EvilMuffinHa]] in [[:Category:2019|2019]] in which there are only 2 characters. It is an extensi..."
21:11:22 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71635&oldid=71633 * EvilMuffinHa * (+35)
21:12:47 <esowiki> [[Wrapping Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71636&oldid=71634 * EvilMuffinHa * (+9)
21:17:16 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71637&oldid=71635 * EvilMuffinHa * (+0)
21:18:12 <esowiki> [[Rhoam Ultimate]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71638 * EvilMuffinHa * (+1184) Created page with "'''Rhoam Ultimate''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:EvilMuffinHa]] in [[:Category:2019|2019]] in which there is only 1 character. It is an extension..."
21:18:31 <esowiki> [[Wrapping Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71639&oldid=71636 * EvilMuffinHa * (+21)
21:18:54 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71640&oldid=71637 * EvilMuffinHa * (+21)
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21:40:07 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71641&oldid=71580 * EvilMuffinHa * (+33) /* R */
21:40:56 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71642&oldid=71641 * EvilMuffinHa * (+21) /* W */
21:41:08 <esowiki> [[User:EvilMuffinHa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71643 * EvilMuffinHa * (+96) Created page with "Hi, I'm '''EvilMuffinHa'''. I have created * [[Rhoam]] * [[Wrapping Rhoam]] * [[Rhoam Ultimate]]"
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22:30:24 <imode> back in the rut... why can nothing that's expressive and usable ever have a stupid simple implementation.
22:32:23 <zzo38> Did you consider Forth?
22:32:38 <imode> not that expressive, turns out.
22:32:54 <imode> plus the model gives people headaches.
22:33:11 <imode> I am called by the siren that is rewriting to investigate alternatives, never being satisfied with a single one.
22:39:22 <imode> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1e8e/82cc742e832f6182f9415835894e35f670a4.pdf
22:39:43 <imode> neat concept, basing your control flow around l-systems.
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00:13:50 <Antebrationist> I was called "train" on here earlier, after my esolang, but I think my normal name will cause less difficulties.
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00:22:44 <Antebrationist> Oh zzo38, I have fully planned out the minsky machine and started to build it.
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00:46:00 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71644&oldid=71640 * EvilMuffinHa * (+972)
00:46:48 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71645&oldid=71644 * EvilMuffinHa * (+154)
00:47:21 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71646&oldid=71645 * EvilMuffinHa * (-20)
00:47:50 <imode> says who changed what in the wiki.
00:48:46 <HackEso> 1/2:tetrapleur//tetrapleur is the new name of quadrilaterals. \ spore//spore <n> stores its input in tmp/spout and displays the nth line (default first). For a version considering irc line lengths, see sport. See also `spam. \ gey//I know nothing about Gey, sir. \ english channel//If it existed, the English Channel would separate Hexham from Finland. \ hppavilion[42]//hppavilion[42] is the awesomest person you will ever meet. Much aw
00:48:57 <HackEso> 1/2:457) <ais523> (Enigma is two games; one is solving Enigma puzzles, the other is working out how to represent things as Enigma puzzles, preferably with the minimal amount of lua and player-hidden information possible) \ 1093) <kmc> anyway getting naked and high in the desert doesn't make you a rebel, as much as I enjoy this activity \ 1231) <ais523> do we seriously not do quotes any more? \ 425) <Taneb> So it's like... Rummy mixed with... b
00:49:02 <HackEso> 2/2:reakout? \ 982) <zzo38> My opinion is that you are all wrong, as far as I can tell.
00:49:30 <HackEso> 1/2:457) <ais523> (Enigma is two games; one is solving Enigma puzzles, the other is working out how to represent things as Enigma puzzles, preferably with the minimal amount of lua and player-hidden information possible) \ 1093) <kmc> anyway getting naked and high in the desert doesn't make you a rebel, as much as I enjoy this activity \ 1231) <ais523> do we seriously not do quotes any more? \ 425) <Taneb> So it's like... Rummy mixed with... b
00:49:56 <int-e> (What was `spam good for again?)
00:50:13 <shachaf> `` ls -ld ../bin/spam ../bin/n
00:50:17 <HackEso> lrwxrwxrwx 1 1000 1000 4 Jul 8 2017 ../bin/n -> spam \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 1000 1000 206 Nov 16 21:37 ../bin/spam
00:50:26 <int-e> Antebrationist: this channel has quite a few bots, some more noisy than others.
00:50:30 <shachaf> spam was just the original name for n before it was shortened to one letter.
00:50:30 <int-e> shachaf: Ah, thanks.
00:50:43 <int-e> shachaf: So the issue here is that `n loops.
00:50:52 <HackEso> line="${1-$(cat $HACKENV/tmp/spline)}"; len="$(awk 'END{print NR}' $HACKENV/tmp/spout)"; echo -n "$line/$len:"; sed -n "${line}{p;q}" $HACKENV/tmp/spout; echo "$((line<len?line+1:1))" > $HACKENV/tmp/spline
00:51:15 <HackEso> HackEso is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike HackEgo.
00:51:16 <shachaf> It was intentional at the time.
00:52:24 <shachaf> OK, this API issue is kind of annoying. This program gives you a path, and what is normally a basename as an offset into that path.
00:52:26 <int-e> Antebrationist: Anyway, esowiki is useful... a) it's interesting to see what topics are currently hot on the wiki b) it enables more timely reactions to spam
00:52:55 <shachaf> The problem is, what it actually gives you is also supposed to be useful for openat(parent_dir_fd, ...)
00:53:12 <shachaf> That's almost the same as a basename except that at the root you want to use AT_FDCWD and a full path instead.
00:53:18 <int-e> Antebrationist: HackEso is more of a swiss army knife (it's a user mode linux sandbox and has grown a rich set of commands, most of questionable use, over time)
00:53:24 <shachaf> What's the solution? Should it give you a basename each time?
00:56:15 <esowiki> [[Rhoam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71647&oldid=71646 * EvilMuffinHa * (+383)
01:01:33 <int-e> Antebrationist: oh and fungot is a chatterbox
01:01:33 <fungot> int-e: am i right? :) imagine if the contents of these fields.
01:01:53 <HackEso> 1/1:success//If at first you don't succeed, you fail. \ gazspaczo//gazspaczo iz a hungarian szoup, tradizsonally szerved cold for hot szummer dayz \ tio//TIO is Try It Online!, <https://tio.run/>, a web-based interpreter for over 600 languages, including hundreds of esolangs. \ ginorst//Ginorst is eht Aillpr fo Dgoo Iikw Aaeegmmnnt. \ usa//USA apparently doesn't stand for United State Automaton.
01:03:42 <shachaf> Only people who are morally pure can.
01:04:00 <shachaf> If you are destined for hell HackEso ignores your commands.
01:10:33 <HackEso> 10889:2017-05-13 <oerjän> slwd ginorst//s,dg,Dg, \ 10888:2017-05-13 <oerjän> slwd ginorst//s,ai,Ai,;s,ii,Ii,;s,aa,Aa, \ 6636:2016-02-07 <oerjän> learn Ginorst is eht aillpr fo dgoo iikw aaeegmmnnt.
01:11:04 <Antebrationist> What constitutes "morally pure" or "destined for hell"?
01:12:05 <shachaf> Please consult the holy book for more information.
01:15:25 <int-e> Antebrationist: "Nothing" is brilliant, it's the pinnacle of declarative programming.
01:15:48 <int-e> . o O ( I hereby declare the program to be finished. )
01:16:40 <HackEso> asmbf-1.2.6.tar.gz \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ just \ karma \ le \ output.b \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ what.tar.gz
01:17:12 <shachaf> What's with these ridiculous names?
01:17:23 <pikhq> From here, I believe thou can infer the appropriate holy book to consult.
01:18:20 <int-e> our spam comes with advanced interpolation and still spouts nonsense.
01:18:25 <pikhq> Not that I will be consulting it, seeing as I live as a blasphemous heathen to each and every religion that there is. 🙃
01:19:11 <shachaf> Perhaps the holy book can be listed by the command `list
01:19:12 <int-e> shachaf: I have no explanation for "sport" though.
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01:21:47 <int-e> `` rm *.gz # both asmbf archives, surely the one unpacked one is enough
01:23:20 <int-e> shachaf: a more pertinent question may be... can't we stuff those files somewhere less visible...
01:23:45 <HackEso> . \ .. \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ just \ karma \ le \ output.b \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh
01:25:47 <shachaf> int-e: When these things were written they were in tmp/
01:25:58 <shachaf> Not my fault that the current directory was set to tmp later.
01:26:50 <int-e> But maybe those files should move with the times :P
01:27:22 <shachaf> Maybe the working directory shouldn't be tmp
01:28:00 <int-e> But first we'd have to agree on a less visible default temp location. Maybe just a hidden subdirectory here?
01:28:18 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/
01:29:55 <b_jonas> what's the problem with the temp files?
01:30:13 <int-e> they show up in `ls
01:30:39 <int-e> now that $HACKENV/tmp is the default working directory
01:31:22 <int-e> It's not a big deal, more of a blemish.
01:33:56 <HackEso> This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. Nobody likes this.
01:34:20 <int-e> One could just change the file names to .spline and .spout
01:34:58 <int-e> Yeah I thought I probably added the last bit.
01:36:08 <shachaf> Did I ever mention the time I was talking to a coworker and they said they knew one person who used Gopher?
01:36:22 <shachaf> And then they talked about how that person would always ask "do you like this?".
01:36:34 <pikhq> lmao that's amazing
01:37:03 <int-e> A simple matter of zzoology.
01:38:06 <shachaf> I should get back to my SAT solver one day.
01:38:16 <shachaf> I don't really know how to do clause deletion nicely.
01:40:18 <shachaf> Also, I have a question about iterators.
01:40:39 <shachaf> I like this iterator style: Iterator it = thing_start(); while (thing_next(&it)) { ... }
01:40:57 <shachaf> Where ... might use it.value or something.
01:41:36 <shachaf> The question is, does this require the type to have more values than the classic style of iteration?
01:42:16 <shachaf> For example with "for (int i = 0; i < n; i++)", the value of i goes between 0 and n, so there are a total of n+1 value.
01:43:21 <shachaf> I guess the first question I should ask is, how would you do simple iteration like that in this style? Starting at a negative number or storing an extra boolean seems scow.
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01:45:49 <shachaf> This specific case doesn't matter much, but it seems kind of annoying to give more complicated iterators an "unstarted" start which I sometimes end up doing.
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02:29:56 <int-e> shachaf: What about a standard NULL-terminated linked list?
02:32:19 <shachaf> Yes, that's another case that's similar.
02:32:51 <shachaf> You have n+1 total states for your pointer including the final null. Really this is a better example probably.
02:33:19 <int-e> for (int i = 0; i < n; i++) is amenable to the starting at -1 trick, and then it fits the pattern you want.
02:33:42 <int-e> But for linked lists you don't get a -1 that easily.
02:34:21 <shachaf> An array with n values has n+1 total pointers, &a[0] to &a[n], but &a[-1] is undefined behavior in C (and reasonably so).
02:34:28 <int-e> Well, for pointers you could argue that it's really a stupid limitation of C.
02:34:46 <shachaf> Anyway the linked list example is better. What do you do?
02:35:21 <int-e> I suppose you make the iterator look like a list element without a value?
02:35:29 <shachaf> You could add an extra "unstarted" state: struct ListIter { Node *node; bool started; };
02:35:50 <int-e> (I vaguely recall that Knuth has various list head tricks of that sort... I forgot the details.)
02:35:58 <shachaf> Then you can write write ListIter list_start(Node *node) { return (ListIter){.node = node, .started = false}; }
02:36:41 <int-e> *I* would probably not cram linked lists into that iterator style.
02:36:57 <shachaf> I mean, it's unnecessary, certainly.
02:37:05 <shachaf> You can just iterate manually and it works fine.
02:37:16 <shachaf> But I'm trying to figure out how to make it not horrible in simple cases.
02:37:38 <int-e> you're always so opinionated
02:37:47 <shachaf> bool list_next(ListIter *iter) { if (iter->started) { iter->node = iter->node->next; } else { iter->started = true; } return iter->node != 0; }
02:37:59 <shachaf> OK, how to make it elegant rather than mildly annoying.
02:39:48 <shachaf> I don't like this way very much. {.node = 0, .started = true} is the same as {.node = 0, .started = false}
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02:40:07 <int-e> Well, my problem with this is... how is the compiler supposed to get rid of the bool and produce the right code (which is the normal for (node *i = begin; i; i = i -> next) ...)
02:40:27 <int-e> (don't ask me why I put spaces around the ->... too much Haskell, I suppose)
02:41:16 <shachaf> Well, really I want this style to work for more complicated kinds of iteration, where I think you have the same problem.
02:41:30 <int-e> Also the simple truth is that I'm so used to the three-part iteration that I don't even find it annoying.
02:41:39 <shachaf> But probably if you inline _next the control flow will be pretty simple?
02:41:44 <shachaf> Let's see, does this work?
02:41:49 <shachaf> struct ListIter { Node *node; Node *next; };
02:42:52 <int-e> (And the real improvement is to make the iterator manipulation implicit. "for (x: list) { ... }")
02:43:39 <shachaf> ListIter list_start(Node *node) { return (ListIter){.node = node}; }
02:44:00 <int-e> sure that isn't .next?
02:44:38 <shachaf> bool list_next(ListIter *it) { it->node = it->next; if (it->node) { it->next = node->next; return true; } return false; }
02:44:44 <int-e> I suppose that works and might be amenable to compiler optimization
02:45:26 <int-e> Looks a bit like SSA style code.
02:46:21 <zzo38> Glulx has a built-in command for dealing with linked lists. I have used linked lists in C too though, as well as Glulx.
02:48:28 <zzo38> I found a implementation of vi for 6502, but it isn't for Famicom (yet), although Famicom keyboard doesn't have any ASCII characters beyond 95 anyways (although nothing stops you from displaying them).
02:49:02 <imode> vi for the 6502? color me interested.
02:49:11 <imode> vim for the 6502 would be an accomplishment.
02:50:53 <zzo38> There is http://vi65.sourceforge.net/ but unfortunately not for Famicom, and I have a Famicom (although not the keyboard for it, nor a cartridge to load my own software in)
02:51:24 <imode> could probably be ported, aye?
02:52:17 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose so.
02:53:25 <zzo38> Unfortunately, no emulator I know of supports separated disk images, even though I said that would be a better feature to have.
02:56:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * HTV04 * New user account
03:07:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71648&oldid=71629 * HTV04 * (+321) /* Introductions */
03:08:18 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71649&oldid=69926 * HTV04 * (+104) Added my optimizing compiler for SmileBASIC 4.
03:09:14 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71650&oldid=71649 * HTV04 * (+3) Fixed typo
03:18:42 <zzo38> ;; Enchantment - Aura ;; Enchant permanent which is attached to another permanent ;; Enchanted permanent has totem armor and cumulative upkeep {1}.
04:40:26 <HackEso> 1/2:ronald reagan//Ronald Reagan was an actor so great that he managed to convince the US that he was the President. Then he created the Star Wars project to destroy the Soviet Union. \ snow//Snow is Jesus's dandruffs, and some suspect that he is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen. It turns the sidewalks to white as if someone broke a lot of styrofoam on it. \ structural subtyping//Not to be confused with substructural typing. \ madness//mad
04:40:33 <HackEso> 2/2:ness lies thataway. \ rincewind//Rincewind is a wizzard. He likes potatoes.
04:41:05 <HackEso> This wisdom entry was censored for being too accurate.
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05:13:16 * moony completely forgot to work on his VAX emulator today ):
05:13:48 <zzo38> Now will you do it, then?
05:15:35 * pikhq wishes she could still focus on projects like that
05:15:40 <pikhq> A VAX emulator sounds neat
05:34:07 <moony> zzo38: it's midnight
05:34:14 <moony> I am planning to go to bed :P
05:34:38 <moony> Maybe could add some instructions to the instr table but that's about it
05:35:10 <pikhq> It's also the weekend
05:35:27 <pikhq> Mind, you may have plans in the morning.
05:35:36 <pikhq> Sunday morning plans are not that uncommon, I suppose.
05:36:07 <zzo38> Some people go to church on Sunday, but now is not the time to do that, with these virus
05:36:11 <moony> I was planning to support a pseudo-64bit extension as a non-DEC-compliant feature flag, could go add those instr IDs
05:36:19 <shachaf> So a range iterator would look like struct It { int cur, end, value; };
05:36:38 <pikhq> Some churches have been doing video services for their congregation, which seems like a reasonable compromise.
05:36:42 <shachaf> It start(int end) { return (It){.end = end}; }
05:37:13 <moony> #[cfg(feature = "64bit")]
05:37:18 <moony> this is gonna be repeated a lot
05:37:24 <pikhq> Not that I'm a follower of any organized religions myself, but hey, some people are.
05:38:16 <shachaf> It next(It *it) { if (it->cur >= it->end) return false; it->value = it->cur; it->cur++; return true; }
05:41:49 <shachaf> Can you translate between the two styles?
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06:18:01 <esowiki> [[Talk:Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71651&oldid=8186 * IFcoltransG * (+243) /* Binary lambda calculus example */ new section
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06:33:51 <zzo38> Has anyone tried to play Scrabble with JavaScript reserved words worth triple?
06:35:19 <myname> that seems a bit... arbitrary
06:35:32 <zzo38> I think it was mentioned once in xkcd
07:00:49 <zzo38> Maybe I should add a command into TeXnicard for defining your own SQL collations, one use of it can be for the rarity of cards in Magic: the Gathering
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12:06:46 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71652&oldid=71425 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* binodu */ fix title
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12:09:18 <esowiki> [[Rhoam Ultimate]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71654&oldid=71638 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) /* See Also */ cats
12:09:30 <esowiki> [[Wrapping Rhoam]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71655&oldid=71639 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) /* See Also */ cats
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17:03:17 <zzo38> Do you like this idea?
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18:29:11 <esowiki> [[FROM HERE TO THERE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71659 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3442) Created page with "'''FROM HERE TO THERE''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Syntax== Each line has the following syntax (lines can be separated by <code>"\n", "\r\n", "\n ",..."
18:29:15 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71660&oldid=71658 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2410) /* 2 */
18:30:44 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71661&oldid=71642 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* F */ + [[FROM HERE TO THERE]]
18:31:24 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71662&oldid=71579 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+68) /* Languages */
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18:34:17 <PSDW> [ 7 2 3 * 1 8 902345
18:34:17 <j-bot> PSDW: 7 16 2707035
18:34:28 <PSDW> 1234567890 ^ 12345678990
18:34:40 <j-bot> PSDW: |value error: quit
18:34:54 <PSDW> [ 1234567890 ^ 12345678990
18:35:36 <PSDW> [ 1 + 4 == 2 + 3
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18:37:33 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71663&oldid=71578 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+136) /* FROM HERE TO THERE */
18:38:54 <esowiki> [[FROM HERE TO THERE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71664&oldid=71659 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Computational class] */ typo
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18:54:38 <PSDW> [ 12081248139759817359
18:54:44 <j-bot> PSDW: |value error: max
18:54:51 <PSDW> [ _14242415135135153125
18:54:58 <PSDW> [ 1424124.124e2
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19:05:24 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71666&oldid=71539 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-97)
19:06:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71667&oldid=71666 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+68)
19:06:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71668&oldid=71667 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* A /* B */ C */
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19:50:25 <HackEso> This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. Nobody likes this.
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19:56:43 <zzo38> If I say I like this, then they are lying, but if I say I do not like this, then I will have to delete it. Therefore, I don't know.
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19:59:10 <zzo38> (Well, either that, or I am nobody.)
20:01:44 <shachaf> Is it mandatory to delete things you don't like?
20:02:33 <zzo38> No, actually is probably better to keep it in case one person likes this, but, they say that nobody likes this, and if that is true then there isn't a point.
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20:41:35 <arseniiv_> there is a point, actually in this line there are nine points over each of “i” letters (silly, they’re called dots, you’d say, but but but but)
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20:49:08 <shachaf> From B-trees? That's annoyingly true.
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20:50:24 <pikhq> Data structures get easier if you only have to support adding things. Pity everything's finite.
20:51:35 <shachaf> One trick you can do is not rebalance your B-trees on deletion.
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20:54:15 <Antebrationist8> I've completed the initialization of the Minsky machine, with 5 pointers.
20:55:30 <zzo38> Antebrationist8: Yes
20:56:26 <zzo38> I don't know all of the details, but yes it is enough (although one is insufficient).
20:57:10 <shachaf> You can use two registers to simulate a stack, and you can use two registers to simulate four registers.
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21:07:10 <zzo38> It is easy to see that one register is insufficient.
21:07:36 <Antebrationist8> Yes, but why is a Minsky machine a finite-state automaton if the counters have an infinite number of values?
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21:12:11 <imode> Antebrationist8: a turing machine is also a finite state automaton.
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21:13:38 <imode> so, finite automata aren't automatically in one computational class just because they use finite state automata. what matters is what data structure is paired with your finite state automaton.
21:14:47 <imode> you can pair a state machine with nothing and get what you'd expect: you're only able to store the current state. if you attach a tape, and wire up the transitions to be tape conditions + actions, it becomes a turing machine.
21:15:14 <imode> finite automata are the backbone of control flow. they do not determine how powerful a particular automaton can be. the structure they manipulate does that.
21:16:16 <imode> does that make sense?
21:18:09 <shachaf> jix: whoa, you're a SAT solvulator?
21:26:27 <HackEso> SAT solvulator? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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22:43:47 <orbitaldecay> Does anyone know of a bf variant already recorded that keeps track of an "indirection level". E.g. { increases indirection by one and } decreases indirection by one, so + becomes {>} and - becomes {<}. Same number of commands, but more expressive power.
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22:52:04 <int-e> orbitaldecay: also what does } do when the level is already 0 :)
22:52:47 <zzo38> Presumably, nothing, I suppose
22:52:54 <int-e> orbitaldecay: Anyway, it doesn't look familiar to me, for what it's worth. (I have not made a study of brainfuck derivatives.)
22:53:23 <orbitaldecay> I hate adding to bf derivatives because there is such a wealth of them it's hard to believe these ideas haven't already been explored
22:53:50 <orbitaldecay> but like, 95% of them just add redundant commands or are substitutions
22:54:04 <int-e> It's time for a brainfuck derivative ontology :P
22:54:32 <orbitaldecay> I've thought about undergoing the herculanian task of organizing them, but geez
22:54:41 <zzo38> Yes, then you can see if one is done or not.
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22:56:29 <orbitaldecay> And totally off topic, I just learned that "gay tail" has a completely different meaning in the world of dogs
22:57:31 <orbitaldecay> http://www.vetstreet.com/dr-marty-becker/my-dog-has-a-gay-tail-what-does-this-mean
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23:00:10 <int-e> That one could also feature in a spy movie.
23:01:17 <int-e> "As long as it’s wagging, I’m happy. And you should be, too."
23:02:49 <orbitaldecay> I really like this indirection idea. You could wrap a normal bf program in {} and have a memory mapped data pointer
23:04:47 <pikhq> How many BF derivatives even are there? Way the fuck too many, at least, but
23:07:00 <int-e> pikhq: infinitely many, or close enough that it makes no difference
23:07:27 <shachaf> I've heard of derivatives of regular languages.
23:07:34 <shachaf> Maybe that extends to programming languages?
23:07:51 <orbitaldecay> if that's the case, brainfuck is like the latin of programming languages
23:08:37 <int-e> shachaf: s/regular//
23:09:05 <int-e> (the point being that it's really an operation on any set of words)
23:10:16 <int-e> It's even relevant for context-free languages, cf. Greibach normal form.
23:12:39 <shachaf> I knew it was more general than regular languages but I wasn't sure how much.
23:12:48 <shachaf> But also if I just said "languages" it would be ambiguous.
23:12:49 <lambdabot> LOWI 032250Z AUTO 11003KT 070V140 9999 OVC070 09/03 Q1019
23:13:16 <shachaf> OK, I see, it's a pretty simple operation.
23:13:48 <int-e> shachaf: Maybe the ambiguity would've made it better? I'm not sure I would've found the alternative meaning ("formal languages" in addition to "programming languages") though... so maybe not.
23:14:08 <shachaf> Why is this called a derivative?
23:15:31 <int-e> I'm not sure. Maybe if you treat words as monomials over a ring you get something similar?
23:21:56 <shachaf> Hmm, looking at how the derivative of a regular expression is computed I guess I can see some similarity.
23:22:48 <pikhq> I feel like there's a difference between "an excessive finite number" and "actually infinite" :)
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23:30:58 <int-e> Hmm, the name seems to be due to Brzozowski (probably) and as far as I can see he didn't motivate the name...
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23:31:28 <int-e> pikhq: an inaccessible natural number is infinite for all intents and purposes ;)
23:31:49 <pikhq> My math degree compels me to disagree.
23:32:25 <int-e> (I think an inaccessible natural number is necessarily a non-standard natural number, and those *are* infinite)
23:33:02 * int-e is dancing on a thin wire.
23:33:29 <pikhq> I'm not sure those really count as "natural numbers" unless you're using a very specialized and unusual definition thereof
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23:34:07 <int-e> A natrual number is an element of a model of the Peano axioms.
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23:34:43 <int-e> (With induction as an axiom schema to make it first order and allow non-standard models :P)
23:35:07 <int-e> pikhq: I think I *can* weasel my way out of this!
23:35:17 <zzo38> As far as I can see the Peano axioms don't have any "inaccessible" natural numbers, since it seems to require that all numbers are reachable
23:35:45 <pikhq> Not if I don't accept your definitions as being commonly-accepted or immediately useful or applicable!
23:36:13 <int-e> zzo38: Well, there's a difference between consistency and omega-consistency...
23:36:36 <zzo38> int-e: Yes, I know, although I fail to see how that is relevant.
23:36:52 <int-e> pikhq: Oh but all I have to demonstrate is that *I* am working with an--ahem--reasonable set of definitions that support my ideas.
23:37:20 <pikhq> Y'know, generally mathematics doesn't work as a debate format.
23:37:42 <int-e> zzo38: It means that the Peano axioms (at least in their first-order logic formulation) are not as strong as you believe.
23:37:56 <pikhq> It's more about working with an already-agreed-upon set of axioms and determining what can be derived from them. :)
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23:38:12 <int-e> pikhq: We're close enough to the foundations to be open to debate.
23:38:38 <shachaf> For what it's worth I read int-e's first sentence that way.
23:38:54 <int-e> pikhq: To my mind, the saving grace of math is not that there is no debate... it is that most of mathematics is detached from these foundational matters.
23:38:54 <shachaf> I mean, I figured "inaccessible" was probably talking about non-standard models.
23:39:22 <pikhq> shachaf: I mean, it *would* have to be.
23:40:14 <pikhq> mostly I'm rejecting the use of a non-standard model as being applicable at all :D
23:40:27 <int-e> pikhq: Where's the fun in that?
23:40:33 <pikhq> I am reasonably sure that the number of Brainfuck derivatives that exists is a 100% bog-standard natural, alas
23:40:38 <shachaf> int-e: But how do you feel about Lawvere theories?
23:40:47 <pikhq> It's Brainfuck derivatives, they're not fun. :P
23:41:04 <shachaf> A bog-standard natural is either zero or the successor of a bog-standard natural.
23:41:35 <shachaf> What was that set theory that had some sort of predicate like that?
23:41:39 <int-e> pikhq: I'm just arguing in my free time. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpAvcGcEc0k )
23:41:49 <esowiki> [[FROM HERE TO THERE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71669&oldid=71664 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+143) /* Values of y */
23:42:10 <pikhq> I suppose I can't dispute that.
23:43:09 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Charlie0 * New user account
23:43:37 <int-e> pikhq: I might act differently if this was ##math... though I probably wouldn't. This is too much fun :)
23:44:33 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, isn't that how it is work?
23:44:34 <pikhq> Full disclosure, my degree is in applied math specifically; waaay more concerned with the naturals and reals than I am more interesting number systems :P
23:45:03 <shachaf> zzo38: I don't remember the details about this.
23:45:25 <shachaf> Something like ZF, but with an extra predicate -- maybe for things called "standard sets" -- that could only be used in particular ways
23:46:11 <shachaf> Oh, I think it was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_set_theory
23:49:18 <int-e> pikhq: On a different level, I'm not sure that the mathematical model of natural numbers is applicable to the number of Brainfuck derivatives... because that would mean that we would have to draw a line between languages that are mere Brainfuck derivatives and those that stand on their own, and we'd probably also have to produce a complete list of candidate languages. In practice that adds a...
23:49:24 <int-e> ...degree of uncertainty and malleability that makes the number not mathematically well-defined. I'm honestly not sure which branch of philosophy such discussions belong to...
23:49:45 <pikhq> Ontology, I dare say.
23:50:34 <pikhq> I mean yeah, basically
23:51:04 <int-e> Oh, that is a good start.
23:52:03 <pikhq> Alas, that's a branch of philosophy I haven't much studied.
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23:54:12 <Charlie0> How in heavens do you update the Introductions page?
23:54:27 <Charlie0> I follow every single step but it still won't let me
23:55:16 <Charlie0> Editing Esolang:Introduce yourself (section)Error: This action has been automatically identified as harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your action was constructive, please inform an administrator of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: require new users to introduce
23:56:09 * pikhq has like one page on the wiki to her name from 14 years ago
23:56:14 <pikhq> Can't help ya there, sorry
00:00:15 <int-e> Charlie0: hmm, have you tried editing the whole page rather than a section?
00:01:10 <int-e> (I'm guessing what the "(section)" part in that message means.)
00:01:17 <Charlie0> int-e I did not, so I tried that, and it still fails
00:02:17 <int-e> Though, hmm, the instructions say to edit the section.
00:03:44 <int-e> Annoyingly this is hard to test. All I can really say is that we've had a successful introduction today so it should work in principle.
00:04:09 <int-e> (And repeat the instructions, but that's awfully redundant.)
00:07:34 <Charlie0> You know, this isn't worth fixing a typo. Bye
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00:07:59 <int-e> Hrm just as I was trying to figure out what the checks actually are...
00:15:22 <int-e> Oh we can actually see the edit in question... it also changed "Amicloud" to "Amibutt" elsewhere in the page... this applies to *all* of Charlie0's attempts.
00:18:06 <zzo38> Then that is why it doesn't works, I suppose
00:18:53 <int-e> Yes, obviously... it counts as a removal (of the line being changed) and those are rejected. But how does this happen every single time?
00:19:54 <pikhq> Cloud-to-Butt extension.
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00:21:11 <int-e> pikhq: What a stupid idea.
00:21:21 <int-e> Anyway... this is why, mystery solved. :)
00:21:29 <pikhq> It's literally a joke extension, so hey :)
00:22:00 <int-e> Well the joke just got real and \harmful.
00:22:53 <int-e> I mean, it's kind of okay to do this to normal page contents, but doing it text fields that will be submitted is a terrible idea.
00:24:08 <int-e> https://github.com/panicsteve/cloud-to-butt/issues/55
00:24:27 <int-e> (including the observation that it's not *this* particular extension)
00:27:14 <int-e> I guess the solution for self-diagnosis by Charlie0 would've been to do a "show changes". It would've looked odd (showing a line as changed with no visible difference) but it would've been some clue at least.
00:33:24 <b_jonas> ah, so that's the typo fix
00:34:00 <b_jonas> he wanted to change a typoed butt
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01:04:38 <zseri> orbitaldecay: brainfuck with indirection, implemented in Rust: https://gitlab.ytrizja.de/zseri/befinde
01:13:54 <shachaf> int-e: It's funny that the (section) edit actually made this more likely to go through.
01:14:01 <shachaf> But I guess not more likely enough.
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01:32:28 <esowiki> [[User talk:Charlie0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71671 * Int-e * (+429) introduction instructions
01:32:59 <int-e> (Maybe they can see that. It can hardly hurt.)
01:33:20 <int-e> . o O ( Now who wants to go through all wiki edits and look for changes of cloud to butt? )
01:34:03 <int-e> shachaf: I'm beginning to think of this as a feature... except for the terrible diagnostics.
01:39:51 <int-e> Did anybody else notice that we lost all interest in Intcode once the AoC event was over?
01:40:05 <int-e> Guess it wasn't all that exciting as a programming language really.
01:41:57 <shachaf> I didn't ever look at it in the first place.
01:42:10 <shachaf> I did write a permutations iterator and now I'm wondering whether there's a better way.
01:47:01 <int-e> Hmm, is it January again?
01:51:42 <HackEso> 2020-05-04 01:51:42.272 +0000 UTC May 4 Monday 2020-W19-1
01:51:52 <b_jonas> int-e: ^ no, still month --05
01:53:36 <HackEso> The password of the month is starving for attention.
01:58:17 <HackEso> 12323:2020-04-05 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is starving for attention. \ 12318:2020-03-01 <arseniïv> learn The password of the month was fought for, and stomped on, but it remains unreconciled with \ 12310:2020-02-12 <shachäf> undo 12307 \ 12309:2020-02-12 <int-̈e> revert \ 12308:2020-02-12 <shachäf> learn The password of the month is always set on the 12th of the month. \ 12307:2020-02-01 <Hooloovö0> learn The password
02:10:51 <zzo38> Put a hidden field that says "This field is meant to detect invertent tampering such as changing 'cloud' to 'butt'" and then display an error message if that message has been tampered with.
02:13:22 <esowiki> [[User talk:Voltage2007]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71672&oldid=70184 * Fwander * (-91) Replaced content with "Thanks!"
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02:47:16 <int-e> zzo38: seems rather pointless; there must be dozens of such plugins for different replacements...
02:49:16 <int-e> (Yes, this partly contradicts what I wrote about considering this a feature. I *am* happy that it caught this particular add-on, but obviously that was due to sheer luck.)
02:51:05 <int-e> So... maybe a more proper check for this kind of add-on would have a hidden input with the whole page to be edited along with the textarea, and check that it's submitted without modifications. That seems to be a lot of overhead though...
02:51:33 <zzo38> Yes, that seems too much of overhead
02:52:28 <int-e> And it's easy to imagine that an add-on would do those edits randomly and then all those measures will be rather futile.
02:52:38 <int-e> So... not worth bothering with.
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05:03:06 <Antebrationist> zzo38, I am halfway through the ALU for the Minsky Machine.
05:04:29 <Antebrationist> Initialisation module, data reading module, Addition ALU, Subtraction ALU, character jumper.
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05:09:26 <zzo38> I am trying to solve a Magic: the Gathering puzzle at this time.
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05:09:52 <zzo38> Yes, I am aware of that.
05:10:52 <zzo38> I also wanted to see if someone can represent Goldbach's Conjecture or Fermat's Last Theorem as a Magic: the Gathering puzzle.
05:11:55 <Antebrationist> FLT should be fairly trivial, but Goldbach's Conjecture, while theoretically possible is insanely difficult.
05:12:35 <zzo38> I haven't invented my own new puzzles recently, although I have invented some puzzles some time ago, and I believe they still work with the current rules (although I mentioned what version of the rules they use anyways, just in case).
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05:14:25 <zzo38> I have also started making up my own set of Magic: the Gathering cards. But, how should collector numbers be determined?
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05:20:53 <zzo38> Someone else asked if a Magic: the Gathering puzzle will be made up like Mitrofanov's chess study. I didn't know about until they asked, and then I looked it up on Wikipedia and found it.
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05:49:15 <jix> shachaf: I guess so :D
05:50:16 <shachaf> Maybe I should've asked you all my questions about SAT solvers back when I was trying to figure things out.
05:50:24 <shachaf> At the moment my CDCL solver is on hold.
05:50:54 <shachaf> Last time I was working on it I needed to figure out how to do clause deletion.
05:51:24 <esowiki> [[Padlock]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71674 * RocketRace * (+8) Initial page
05:52:58 <jix> shachaf: I've implemented the multi-tier strategy from https://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-319-24318-4_23 and AFAIK most solvers converged on a variation of that
05:54:19 <shachaf> I was just misreading the output of MiniSAT so I thought clause deletion was much less important than it actually was.
05:56:10 <shachaf> Where is the multi-tier strategy described?
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05:57:18 <shachaf> Is that the chapter by Oh?
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06:22:06 <jix> shachaf: yeah
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06:45:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: collector numbers are assigned sequentially in the set after sorting it first by whether the card appears in randomized booster packs, then by border color (the groups are IIRC devoid, w, u, b, r, g, hybrid, gold, artifact, land, but I'm not certain about the details) then English name
06:46:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: you can use existing sets as an example
06:49:17 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I know what you mentioned, but want to know the other details too
06:50:32 <b_jonas> int-e: we should put control characters including lone lf and crlf, and some invalid utf-8 and other traps into that page :)
07:19:33 <zzo38> Do you like Mitrofanov's chess study?
07:22:20 <shachaf> jix: Oh, I just noticed you linked to the specific paper.
07:22:40 <shachaf> I just clicked on the PDF link and it took me to the entire book so I spent some time searching it for tiers.
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07:43:43 <jix> shachaf: just remembered that I also wrote a short summary of what I did: https://jix.one/refactoring-varisat-4-heuristics/#clause-database-reduction
07:45:56 <jix> (that also explains a few things that Oh's paper probably takes for granted)
07:58:07 <shachaf> I see, the glue level is the smallest number of total decisions that's been needed to reach a conflict or unit in the clause? Or something along those lines.
07:58:19 <shachaf> I should probably start by implementing a really simple heuristic for deletion and then jam it up later.
08:03:06 <jix> yeah glue level and clause activities ... I'm not sure into how much detail Oh's paper goes been some time since I read it
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08:10:26 <shachaf> OK. I'll look at this more closely soon.
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09:00:02 <rain1> https://oeis.org/A000001
09:02:22 <jix> https://oeis.org/A003075
09:04:20 <shachaf> Too bad so few terms are given.
09:06:35 <jix> computing two more was hard enough ;)
09:06:37 <zzo38> b_jonas: Do you know how names are sorted?
09:06:47 <jix> took me half a year of fulltime work essentially
09:07:06 <shachaf> jix: Oh, you're cited there.
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09:07:54 <jix> still need to write the paper on how I did it, but can't find time :(
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09:14:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know. Wizards is unlikeley to have published those internal procedures, and I haven't tried to reverse engineer them.
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09:24:45 <zzo38> I have a "InnerBorder" column to specify the border, although if it is null, then it will be determined automatically. I should add a procedure into the major template to calculate this; it can then be called by different rendering templates to decide which border to render, and may also be usable by the major template too, in order to decide collector numbers, I suppose.
09:26:48 <zzo38> The values of the "ConvManaCost" and "ColorIdentity" columns are automatically set by the "auto." procedure (meant to be called by the user), and that procedure is also meant to assign collector numbers (I can use the ROW_NUMBER window function), although that part isn't implemented yet.
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09:41:57 <b_jonas> But you can override that for silly stuff like Transguild Courier
09:42:42 <zzo38> Can you describe how that works?
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09:43:15 <zzo38> I do intend to probably allow the card database to contain a user variable which defines how collector numbers are assigned; if it exists, it will use that instead of the default.
09:44:27 <zzo38> (You can also just avoid using the auto. procedure if you want to assign converted mana costs, color identities, and collector numbers manually.)
09:47:53 <zzo38> I looked at Transguild Courier, and if you mean the frame, then you can already override the frame.
09:53:01 <zzo38> O, it look like Transguild Courier is grouped with the artifacts even though it has a gold frame. I also seem to remember that MSE ignores the frame and uses only the mana cost, although I don't know how accurate that is.
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11:05:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, I'm talking about computing the Courier's color and frame. The stupid errata where he had a 5-color color indicator (not representable in print because of the stupid decision that a color indicator is one bullet even for two colors) has been reverted (for a reprint),
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11:06:30 <b_jonas> so the Courier is now omnicolored only because of his characteristic-changing abil. You can't guess his color autom'lly from his mana cost.
11:07:15 <b_jonas> That plus there are cards with devoid.
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11:55:57 <tromp> zzo83: I love Mitrofanov's study!
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15:17:30 <zseri> orbitaldecay, you've send me an OpenPGP-encrypted mail (which I was able to decrypt), but didn't send an pubkey to encrypt, and I wasn't able to fetch your key from the keyservers, and I wasn't able to fetch a *currently valid* key via WKD, hm. (all keys retrievable via WKD were expired)
15:18:35 <orbitaldecay> zseri: I did not intend to do that. I'm using protonmail. They must have automatically encrypted it for some reason?
15:21:48 <zseri> I found out that 'indirect BF' would probably require either BigNums or relative addressing (changed it to relative addressing for now). BF seems to have a direct equivalent in indirect BF, but that only works if the initial indirection is zero. Maybe it would be a good idea to add some operation which is able to deterministically and always reset the indirection to zero...
15:21:57 <esowiki> [[&brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71680 * Orby * (+1606) Creating reference bf
15:23:43 <zseri> basically, there are two variants: unbounded cells with absolute addressing; and bounded cells with relative addressing...
15:28:22 <orbitaldecay> zseri: well, I think the model should use unbounded tape and unbounded positive cells with absolute addressing. Implementation can just use a tape of 65536 16-bit unsigned cells, or whatevs. But I think absolute addressing is important.
15:29:56 <orbitaldecay> I can show you the snippets of an implementation in C that I wrote that might make it clearer what I mean
15:33:11 <esowiki> [[&brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71681&oldid=71680 * Zseri * (+54)
15:34:36 <orbitaldecay> I switched to the *, & syntax because I'm really interested in [*] and I think writing [{] looks really strange
15:36:31 <zseri> relative addressing makes writing programs more complicated, but makes writing interpreters and compilers easier, and practically the pointer doesn't "jump back" to 0 with every indirection on a pre-filled cell (=0), but instead just stays there...
15:37:41 <zseri> maybe it would be possible to build a compiler that transforms programs from one form to the other, which would be really non-trivial to do manually...
15:38:25 <orbitaldecay> I prefer the absolute addressing model, but if you're interested in relative addressing by all means explore it and write about it on the wiki page
15:38:43 <orbitaldecay> Converting between the two could be really hard
15:40:23 <orbitaldecay> A really interesting implementation detail is what happens when you modify a cell that is part of the indirection chain
15:41:20 <zseri> (about converting) yep, but possible as long as no I/O is involved. Would probably require a execution or simulation of the whole thing, tho....
15:41:25 <orbitaldecay> e.g. tape is 1 2 3 0, indirection is 4, data pointer is 0, what does < do?
15:42:10 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71682&oldid=69821 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+37) /* Survey */ + Unary and rearange
15:43:23 <zseri> it would probably set cell 0 = 0, then the selected cell would stay the same... Or have I messed up the indirection count?
15:43:54 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71683&oldid=71679 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-830) /* 2 */
15:44:08 <esowiki> [[Regimin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71684 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1434) Created page with "'''Regimin''' is a minimal 2D Turing-complete esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Program format== The program is expected to be a perfect square. Whitespace is ign..."
15:44:51 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71685&oldid=71661 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* R */ + [[Regimin]]
15:44:53 <orbitaldecay> but ensuring that the interpreter does that correctly is tricky
15:45:14 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71686&oldid=71678 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) /* Languages */
15:45:39 <zseri> it can be archieved by caching the pointer before accessing/modifying the cell.
15:46:52 <orbitaldecay> I think so, I think I've also handled that behavior correctly in the snippet I posted
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16:35:12 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71687 * Zseri * (+2166) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Befinde |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:zseri]] |year=[[:Category:2020|2020]] |typesys=static |memsys=tape-based |dimensions=one-dimensional |cla..."
16:35:34 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71688&oldid=71687 * Zseri * (+0)
16:36:09 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71689&oldid=71688 * Zseri * (+0)
16:36:52 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71690&oldid=71685 * Zseri * (+14) /* B */ +Befinde
16:37:09 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71691&oldid=71689 * Zseri * (+2)
16:46:26 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71692&oldid=71691 * Zseri * (+37)
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17:08:16 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71693&oldid=71692 * Zseri * (+227) /* BF translation */ alternative BF translation
17:30:45 <zzo38> b_jonas: I have actually already thought of devoid and "~ is [colors]" abilities, but only if they are the first ability of the card. Although I think a color indicator is better for that particular use anyways. The frame can already be overridden anyways, although it does affect color identity (which is easier to compute when a color indicator is used instead).
17:37:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: first ability only? could work. Valiant Changeling for some reason has a self type changing ability as non-first ability -- I don't know why they ordered it that way, since that ability acts in all zones
17:37:41 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui/artifact/33f11dfdacc8b9d2 You can see here how color identity is computed. Color indicators (entered as part of the type line) are considered, although abilities currently aren't considered.
17:39:02 <b_jonas> besides devoid cards and Transguild Courier, I think the only card with a characteristic-changing ability that changes its color is Ghostfire
17:39:39 <zzo38> And, actually, considering abilities other than the first probably wouldn't be too difficult to do, anyways.
17:41:02 <b_jonas> Evermind, Ancestral Vision, Wheel of Fate, Living End, and the future sight Pacts are errataed to have color indicators
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17:43:48 <zzo38> Anyways, I am intending this mainly for custom cards, although custom sets can include reprints of official cards too.
17:45:23 <b_jonas> sure, these are existing examples
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17:46:13 <zzo38> Yes, it is good to know, though.
17:47:37 <orbitaldecay> Here's an interesting puzzle. Is &brainfuck tc using only []*& ?
17:47:45 <zzo38> Did you see the file I linked? If there is a mistake in it, then hopefully you can tell me what mistake you found.
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17:56:59 <Sgeo_> Tcl and Elixir are the same language, change my mind.
17:57:45 <Sgeo_> They both use immutable values, but have units of mutability that cannot be garbage collected.
17:57:45 <zzo38> I don't know much about that.
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17:58:31 <pikhq> I don't really know Elixir well enough to say.
18:01:44 <zseri> orbitaldecay: I don't think so, because you need at least one non-zero cell to navigate.
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18:25:52 <zseri> It would be quite interesting to implement an 3SP interpreter including the output extension in &bf (easier) or befinde (harder bc relative addressing)...
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18:33:34 <zseri> I would think the halting condition would be something similiar to: no cell changed and no output was produced, both in the last cycle
18:33:50 <zseri> because that means nothing can change anymore.
18:35:02 <zseri> e.g. second cell must be even, all cells should be hashed or such... the translation should reserve some bookkeeping memory for that...
18:35:51 <zseri> It would be cool to write higher level programs in it, or at least have a compiler that transforms higher-level programs into indirect BF...
18:36:38 <orbitaldecay> &bf and befinde should be easy to compile to, 3sp is some next level shit
18:37:12 <orbitaldecay> I have no idea how to do anything constructive in 3sp
18:40:41 <zseri> would be cool to compile 3SP -> indirect BF, tho.
18:43:20 <zseri> 1. read number from input 2. select cell 3. apply indirection 4. '>' 5. undo indirection ... the difficult parts are: reserve memory for a hash or parity sum of the other cells and calculate that...
18:44:50 <orbitaldecay> I don't think "no change" is the halting condition. Won't the increment guarantee that there's always a change?
18:47:22 <orbitaldecay> Another language that is probably easy to emulate in &bf and befinde is cyclic tag
18:57:37 <orbitaldecay> Another interesting thought: in &bf < isn't really necessary if there are infinitely many zeros on the tape because you can [>]* to start at the begining of the tape again
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19:05:16 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71694&oldid=71599 * Orby * (+71)
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19:08:37 <zzo38> Do you think this regular expression is suitable for finding characteristic defining abilities which define the color of the card? (^|\n\n)(\~|This [a-z]+) is( (and )?(white|blue|black|red|green|all colors),?)*\.(\n\n|$)
19:09:00 <zzo38> (other than devoid)
19:09:42 <zzo38> O, I forgot "colorless"
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19:38:16 <esowiki> [[&brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71695&oldid=71681 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* See also */
19:38:40 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71696&oldid=71693 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) /* See also */
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19:58:19 <lambdabot> 22085827895139816776239946565283164870185114992726805315584
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20:00:16 <b_jonas> `python3 -eprint(float(52)**34, "==", 52**34)
20:00:18 <HackEso> Unknown option: -e \ usage: python3 [option] ... [-c cmd | -m mod | file | -] [arg] ... \ Try `python -h' for more information.
20:00:21 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint(float(52)**34, "==", 52**34)
20:00:23 <HackEso> 2.2085827895139817e+58 == 22085827895139816776239946565283164870185114992726805315584
20:01:23 <int-e> I imagine 52.0 does the trick as well.
20:01:36 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint(52.0**34, "==", 52**34)
20:01:37 <HackEso> 2.2085827895139817e+58 == 22085827895139816776239946565283164870185114992726805315584
20:02:21 <esowiki> [[&brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71697&oldid=71695 * Orby * (+94) Adding reference implementation
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20:15:27 <zseri> orbitaldecay: befinde has a trivial way to return to the start: [<]; I think *[<]& would be sufficient to let the current cell point at zero; equivalent to 'get me to zero' of (your code in &bf) in Befinde would be *[&>*]
20:17:47 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71698&oldid=71696 * Zseri * (+145) +Patterns
20:18:16 <orbitaldecay> yeah, &bf has a similar construction: wrap your program like "*> program &", then any time inside the program you want to reset the data pointer just do &[*<&]*
20:18:31 <orbitaldecay> it basically memory maps the data pointer to 0
20:21:21 <zseri> In my implementation (and befinde is optimized to be easy to implement) mapping the data pointer even simplified the implementation and made the behavoir more consistent.
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20:24:48 <orbitaldecay> I think your thought of removing indirection from [ and ] is interesting
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20:25:56 <zseri> doesn't make much of a difference, but it is more consistent with the rest of the commands, because no other command has such implicit indirection.
20:27:01 <zseri> hm, is there a way to reset the indirection back to zero, without invoking UB or crashing the interpreter?
20:28:31 <orbitaldecay> but there's a way of thinking about indirect bf as not needing & at all
20:29:00 <orbitaldecay> you could say * replaces the data pointer with the value of the current cell
20:29:05 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71699&oldid=71698 * Zseri * (+15) /* Useful patterns */
20:29:48 <orbitaldecay> I think there are bf variants that have this command
20:30:33 <orbitaldecay> I think there are a lot of ways of thinking of *>[] as tc
20:30:50 <zseri> but every invocation of that command would make the control flow more difficult, because you could accidentially modify a cell that is part of the dereference chain...
20:31:46 <orbitaldecay> no, I mean eliminate the concept of the chain completely. Instead of having indirection levels, just have * copy the value of the current cell to the data pointer.
20:32:29 <orbitaldecay> in some ways this concept is cleaner, or at least easier to implement, but in other ways it's not as nice conceptually
20:33:28 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71700&oldid=71699 * Zseri * (-18) /* Useful patterns */
20:34:56 <esowiki> [[&brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71701&oldid=71697 * Orby * (+25)
20:35:27 <zseri> symbolic bf also has the opposite (something roughly equivalent to &), but without the chaining.
20:35:47 <orbitaldecay> yeah, unfortunately they're not actually inverses of each other in symbolic bf
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20:36:12 <orbitaldecay> *& in symbolic bf doesn't actually restore the original state
20:37:10 <orbitaldecay> I wanted a bf variant with reference and dereference where the operators were actually inverses. If you change the looping construct in &bf to match the looping construct in Reversible BF, then &bf is reversible, too
20:40:02 <orbitaldecay> befinde can also be made to be reversible in the same way
20:41:00 <orbitaldecay> just patch up the looping construct, then to reverse a program just reverse the string replacing [ with ], ] with [, & with *, * with &, > with <, and < with >
20:44:40 <zseri> are you sure about [ and ] ? I don't think simple string replacing in the way you described would be enough. You need to keep the branching information. And the indirection makes a correct implementation of the parts which depend on the raw value of a cell more difficult...
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20:46:43 <Antebrationist> Finished subtraction logic unit and ALU, halfway through conditionals/
20:46:53 <orbitaldecay> that's why you need to change the behavior of the loop. Enter on non-zero, loop on zero instead of Enter on non-zero, loop on non-zero.
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20:55:06 <Antebrationist> I think I'm nearly ready to publish it to esolangs.org, do you have any tips on formatting or the like?
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21:02:57 <orbitaldecay> Nope, up to the implementation but not required
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21:05:31 <zzo38> Antebrationist: You can read the MediaWiki documentation if you need to know about formatting
21:07:54 <zzo38> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Help:Formatting
21:11:30 <zzo38> You can add a space at the beginning of each line, is one way
21:16:09 <fizzie> Hm, I wonder if I should enable the SyntaxHighlight extension. It's been bundled with MediaWiki for quite a while now.
21:16:14 <fizzie> I guess most of our code blocks aren't in any generally known language though. But it allows automated line numbering and highlighting, which might be sometimes useful.
21:17:43 <zzo38> I think not, because I think that such a thing can be done by the user (I also wrote a specification for doing that).
21:29:42 <zzo38> I thought of a idea: Each player chooses a creature, and then each of those creatures gains flanking until end of turn.
21:30:02 <zzo38> (This could also be used with shadow.)
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21:52:44 <moony> you have any advice on getting a working assembler for the VAX?
21:52:53 <zzo38> Unfortunately, I don't know.
21:52:56 <moony> (I've been trying to get 4.3BSD installed in SIMH, but it doesn't seem to like me)
21:53:04 <zzo38> (I have never programmed in VAX)
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22:23:21 <zzo38> Now I fixed it so that it detects abilities such as "~ is all colors"
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23:47:57 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71702&oldid=71683 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+76)
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23:57:38 <Antebrationist> Is a machine comprised of an infinite number of finite-state automata Turing Complete?
00:00:55 <zzo38> Some cellular automata are Turing complete.
00:03:05 <Antebrationist> Okay. I know that there are 2^256 2d automata, and 2^268435456 3d cellular automata, but what exactly makes a CA turing complete?
00:05:40 <Cale> Antebrationist: The arguments usually involve implementing circuits somehow. Also, there are more cellular automata than that if you consider more states per cell or larger/differently shaped neighbourhoods.
00:07:14 <Cale> Antebrationist: It's basically not easy to check whether any particular cellular automaton is Turing complete, and the manner in which the equivalence is carried out might be different each time.
00:13:02 <Cale> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8unMqSp0bFY
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00:29:41 <esowiki> [[Hatemath]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71703&oldid=70807 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+57) /* External resources */ cats
00:30:30 <esowiki> [[Poohbear]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71704&oldid=51363 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0)
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00:32:55 <esowiki> [[Poohbear]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71705&oldid=71704 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+120) /* Interpreters */ cats
00:33:27 <esowiki> [[Poohbear]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71706&oldid=71705 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) Doesnt appear to have a stack
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00:48:48 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71707&oldid=71702 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+82) /* 2 */
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02:19:27 <zzo38> Do you think this is good? http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui/artifact/ea9d27eca03edd9c
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03:17:46 <Antebrationist> It really helped me to understand the alternate state transitions.
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03:20:31 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71708 * D * (+145) Microcontroller page
03:22:53 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71709&oldid=71708 * D * (+266)
03:24:10 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71710&oldid=71709 * D * (+49)
03:25:17 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71711&oldid=71710 * D * (+144)
03:26:32 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71712&oldid=71711 * D * (+114)
03:27:50 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71713&oldid=71712 * D * (+2)
03:30:23 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71714&oldid=71713 * D * (+125)
03:30:48 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71715&oldid=71714 * D * (+71)
03:33:01 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71716&oldid=71715 * D * (+169)
03:33:27 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71717&oldid=71716 * D * (+62)
03:37:34 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71718&oldid=71717 * D * (+53)
03:37:50 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71719&oldid=71718 * D * (+13)
03:42:28 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71720&oldid=71719 * D * (+73)
03:58:37 <zzo38> I got a PCRE error
03:58:46 <zzo38> I got a PCRE error "internal error: previously-checked referenced subpattern not found (at 39)".
04:01:03 <zzo38> That is even though I have no back references
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04:01:42 <zzo38> Nevertheless, getting rid of the PCRE_NO_AUTO_CAPTURE option fixed it, somehow.
04:01:43 <Antebrationist> I've used up an A2 sheet of paper planning the Minsky machine, and now I'm just copying it to a text file.
04:02:11 <zzo38> But do you know why it is? The regular expression is: (?<!\[)(\(([^()]++|(?1))+\))(?![^{]*\})
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04:26:49 <moony> I think i'm going to go on a little halting adventure
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04:34:26 <zzo38> Why does Wizards of the Coast use an inconsistent file format for the rules?
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05:28:31 <Antebrationist> It's currently broken, and I've linked a few bits together, but you get the ideas.
05:28:51 <zzo38> I don't know right now.
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05:29:09 <zzo38> (I did look, though)
06:01:43 <zzo38> Why does aplay have a assertion error if it is interrupted after the music has finished?
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09:27:33 <HackEso> 1/1:study//A study is mostly useless until backed up by further studies. See studies. \ `whoops//`whoops is a repluralizer. \ gentlebeing//A gentlebeing is a gender and species neutral gentleman. \ xyzzy//Nothing happens. \ stephen wolfram//Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
09:27:46 <HackEso> Studies show lots of things. Nobody reads them, though. Also: this study contradicts this other study. These two studies agree, but were secretly paid for by the same company.
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11:57:38 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71721&oldid=71720 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+34) format + typo
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12:38:54 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71722&oldid=71668 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14)
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12:57:22 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71723&oldid=71700 * Zseri * (+184) /* Useful patterns */ increment all cells until we find the pointer
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12:57:54 <zseri> I think in befinde, some loop "against" the indirection count would be nice...
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13:24:00 <esowiki> [[HGFTSNOA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71724&oldid=71675 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+141) /* Fibonacci numbers until variable t (finish) (help in InfiniteGoto interpreter) */
13:44:36 <orbitaldecay> zseri: could you elaborate? like a loop that checks the indirection count as a condition?
14:08:30 <zseri> that is needed because there is no other way to check the indirection count without possibily causing UB or crashing the interpreter (I don't really want commands that silently 'do nothing' because then reverse operations could do unintended stuff)...
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15:14:17 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71725&oldid=71707 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* 2 */
15:14:30 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71726&oldid=71725 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* Calling */
15:18:57 <orbitaldecay> You could just code so that the data pointer is always 0, that way when you do [&] it breaks out of the loop when the level of indirection is 0
15:19:43 <orbitaldecay> that doesn't work in &bf, but it works in befinde
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15:20:42 <zseri> nope, it doesn't, because you would need to know where the cell 0 is, to decrement it to zero before [&].
15:20:55 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71727&oldid=71726 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+60) /* 2 */
15:21:44 <zseri> And you *need* a data pointer != 0 to be able to access cells different than cell 0.
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15:25:32 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71728&oldid=71723 * Zseri * (+138) /* Commands */ while(indcnt)
15:27:04 <orbitaldecay> the data pointer is always 0, but you increment cell 2
15:27:34 <orbitaldecay> unless you're doing something way different from what I'm doing
15:27:53 <orbitaldecay> oh that's right, you're memory mapping your data pointer
15:30:04 <zseri> I modified my befinde interpreter, so that loops can access variables "out-of-bounds" (e.g. negative cell positions), but only in the loop condition, they always terminate the loop...
15:31:20 <zseri> I have no idea if that has any benefit... Maybe one could set _[0]=1; _[1]=-x or such...
15:34:46 <zseri> (it has one benefit: some programs run a few more stmts before panicking)...
15:44:53 <esowiki> [[&brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71729&oldid=71701 * Orby * (+566) Documenting reversible variant
16:10:52 <esowiki> [[&brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71730&oldid=71729 * Orby * (+237)
16:48:47 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71731&oldid=71727 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+181) /* 2 */
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17:24:18 <esowiki> [[XENBLN/Commands]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71732&oldid=71048 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) link
17:25:27 <esowiki> [[XENBLN/Commands]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71733&oldid=71732 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) Update
17:26:21 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71734&oldid=71049 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+76) /* Commands */
17:31:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71735&oldid=71722 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-56)
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17:32:35 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71736&oldid=71731 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+596) /* 3 */
17:33:23 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71737&oldid=71736 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+34) /* Builtins */
17:33:54 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71738&oldid=71737 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) /* Examples */
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18:25:21 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71739&oldid=71738 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1113)
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18:34:55 <rain1> Has there been any updates on picofuck?
18:35:32 <orbitaldecay> rain1: there haven't been. I've been playing around with some different ideas
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18:36:43 <rain1> nothing more than what I said the other day
18:36:52 <rain1> what did you mean by "&brainfuck"
18:37:06 <rain1> the problem is very interesting and i want to work on it more
18:37:27 <orbitaldecay> I also find the picofuck problem very interesting and want to work on it more
18:37:50 <orbitaldecay> I have kind of a fuzzy idea for a potential way to get picofuck to work
18:38:27 <rain1> aha that is a wonderful idea
18:38:31 <rain1> reference brainfuck
18:38:56 <orbitaldecay> if one instruction incremented a counter, and the other instruction was an interpreter that executed the instruction referenced by the interpreter, it might be kind of a cheaty way to get it to work
18:39:22 <orbitaldecay> so, writing an rbf self interpreter might be a start
18:42:10 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/XShell]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71740 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1518) Created page with "=Pyvix= '''Pyvix''' is an esolang usable by the XShell operating system (XOS). ==Learn by examples== ===Hello World=== get_os().exec("echo Hello World") Or: get_os().cmd("e..."
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18:46:39 <orbitaldecay> Semordnilap is basically the same language and I've written an interpreter for that
18:51:27 <orbitaldecay> rain1: I have an idea for picofuck. I will type it up on the discussion page now.
18:52:14 <orbitaldecay> oh, I see you are already thinking along the same lines I am
19:01:40 <esowiki> [[Unary Filesystem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71741&oldid=71627 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Command language */
19:01:56 <esowiki> [[Unary Filesystem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71742&oldid=71741 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-9)
19:02:55 <esowiki> [[Unary Filesystem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71743&oldid=71742 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30)
19:07:13 <orbitaldecay> Hmm, I wonder if they hang out on IRC. Have you read their comments?
19:08:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71744&oldid=71549 * Orby * (+1320)
19:09:07 <esowiki> [[User talk:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71745&oldid=59140 * Orby * (+142)
19:09:24 <esowiki> [[User talk:Salpynx]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71746&oldid=71745 * Orby * (+69)
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19:13:50 <int-e> Hmm. I think this was the last time they were here: https://esolangs.org/logs/2020-02-05.html#ljc
19:15:09 <orbitaldecay> I left a message on their talk page, hopefully we get to catch up
19:18:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71747&oldid=71744 * Orby * (+327) /* More ideas in the Salpynx vein */
19:22:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71748&oldid=71747 * Orby * (+401) /* Discussion */
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19:26:24 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71749&oldid=71586 * Orby * (+48) Changing equivalence back to isomorphism
19:28:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71750&oldid=71748 * Orby * (+441)
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19:41:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71751&oldid=71750 * Orby * (+574) /* More ideas in the Salpynx vein */
19:46:38 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71752&oldid=71694 * Orby * (+30)
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19:59:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71753&oldid=71751 * Orby * (+609) /* More thoughts on isomorphism */
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20:12:51 <moony> Took long enough. https://i.imgur.com/DsaxQdn.png
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20:22:46 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Stub]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71754&oldid=71244 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4)
20:25:17 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71755&oldid=71739 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+784)
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20:44:01 <orbitaldecay> this picofuck problem is driving me completely up a wall
20:45:16 <orbitaldecay> and I don't think anyone is on who is interested in talking about it
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20:50:07 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71756&oldid=71749 * Orby * (-35) Rewording for brevity
20:50:24 <moony> oh, i probably can't even help now that I look
20:51:55 <zzo38> What problem is that?
20:53:36 <orbitaldecay> 2 command "simple translation" of reversible bitfuck
20:53:53 <orbitaldecay> a hypothetical language that I still haven't proven or disproven the existence of
20:54:36 <orbitaldecay> I spent some time thinking about it in 2017 and recently revisited the idea
20:58:19 <esowiki> [[Nanofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71757&oldid=71589 * Orby * (-1) /* Definition */
20:58:42 <esowiki> [[Nanofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71758&oldid=71757 * Orby * (-67) /* Machine */
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21:25:58 <kspalaiologos> I wonder, is there a general consensus does one need a license or permission to own a trebuchet or a ballista
21:26:22 <kspalaiologos> What about using them, is there a country where siege weapons are legal?
22:05:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71759&oldid=71753 * Orby * (+1466) /* More thoughts on isomorphism */
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22:14:24 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Emerald * New user account
22:23:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71760&oldid=71648 * Emerald * (+192) /* Introductions */
22:24:55 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71761&oldid=71760 * Emerald * (+11) /* Introductions */
22:28:25 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71762 * Emerald * (+151) Made the page
22:37:44 <esowiki> [[Dig]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71763 * Emerald * (+159) Made page
22:39:12 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71764&oldid=71763 * Emerald * (+10) Fix category
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22:57:25 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71765&oldid=71756 * Orby * (+869) Providing examples. Generalizing definition.
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23:01:59 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71766&oldid=71765 * Orby * (+162) injective and surjective
23:02:42 <zzo38> The effective use of rainbow energy in Pokemon card: http://zzo38computer.org/img_1D/rainbowenergy0.png
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23:18:29 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71767&oldid=71766 * Orby * (+1362) /* Examples */
23:21:54 <zzo38> Do you like Pokemon card?
23:25:15 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71768&oldid=71767 * Orby * (-3) /* Another example */
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23:31:49 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71769&oldid=71768 * Orby * (-107) /* Another example */ Fixing error
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23:53:32 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71770&oldid=71769 * Orby * (+79)
23:53:58 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/2001]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71771 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+860) Created page with "'''2001: An Esolang Odyssey''' is a programming language for HAL 9000 computers developed by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Syntax== When HAL executes a 2001 program, he..."
23:54:37 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/2001]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71772&oldid=71771 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31)
00:09:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71773&oldid=71759 * Orby * (+119) /* More ideas in the Salpynx vein */
00:09:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71774&oldid=71773 * Orby * (+1) /* More ideas in the Salpynx vein */
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00:12:15 <orbitaldecay> man, I feel for the schizophrenic guy who hangs out in #osdev
00:12:34 <orbitaldecay> he just spouts psychotic nonsense about bitwise operations to no one
00:14:57 <int-e> . o O ( can you paste an example? )
00:17:22 <orbitaldecay> https://paste.forder.cc/caqosotezu.coffeescript
00:18:42 <orbitaldecay> he's been going on like this for 30 minutes to himself
00:20:52 <orbitaldecay> no, it's an actual person. they were having a conversation with someone the other day who was egging them on. it was really sad.
00:21:23 <imode> that's impressive, because it fooled me.
00:21:34 <int-e> fungot: luckily we're all nice people and would never do that to you
00:21:34 <fungot> int-e: hm. i wonder if i'd have access through the ( other) uni as well. 5 phases/ passes. phase 5 being the target emitter. just add counters to sum the value 30 fnord e fnord
00:22:05 <int-e> imode: I thought it was a bit too coherent on the technical side to be a bot.
00:22:06 * pikhq pets fungot, her favorite fungot
00:22:06 <fungot> pikhq: a semi-normal assembly like language
00:22:39 <int-e> then again what do I know about the state of the art in chat bots...
00:22:52 <int-e> (I still think fungot is impressive :P)
00:22:52 <fungot> int-e: it requires that the input string
00:23:07 <int-e> And fungot is not even context-aware.
00:23:07 <fungot> int-e: i've seen a lot of people who use the api, but that is very odd.
00:23:09 <orbitaldecay> well, if it is a chat bot it's doing a remarkable job of imitating a schizophrenic person on irc
00:24:02 <pikhq> this does seem easier than imitating someone without
00:24:47 <imode> some day I'll probably get to that stage, if I'm not there already.
00:25:18 <pikhq> You have seemed coherent, at least
00:26:10 <orbitaldecay> it's like that chat bot that "passed the turing test" by pretending to be an 8 year old Ukrainian boy with limited command of english
00:26:27 <imode> if you lower your standards, everyone's coherent!
00:26:52 <int-e> if you lower your standards, everyone's coherent!
00:27:46 <int-e> > map length ["imode", "int-e", "pikhq", "eliza"]
00:28:31 <imode> three disjoint personalities, one chatbot.
00:29:58 <pikhq> this would be a shocking way to find out about being plural or something
00:30:04 <pikhq> i think my wife would be shocked, too
00:32:25 <sebbu> "Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana."
00:42:01 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/2001]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71775&oldid=71772 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+403)
00:44:33 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/2001]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71776&oldid=71775 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+294) /* Instructions */
00:44:46 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/2001]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71777&oldid=71776 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* Instructions */
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01:36:38 <esowiki> [[Padlock]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71778&oldid=71674 * RocketRace * (+5773) Document Padlock
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01:39:27 <esowiki> [[Padlock]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71779&oldid=71778 * RocketRace * (+155) Categorize the page.
01:41:25 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71780&oldid=71486 * RocketRace * (-1) Fix a typo
01:44:14 <esowiki> [[Padlock]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71781&oldid=71779 * RocketRace * (+204) Document alternate ASCII symbols
01:45:57 <esowiki> [[Padlock]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71782&oldid=71781 * RocketRace * (+10) Fix a typo
01:47:24 <esowiki> [[Padlock]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71783&oldid=71782 * RocketRace * (+8) Fix a typo
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03:59:38 <zzo38> Why does the average temperature of my computer seems to be increasing slowly over time? Now it says 34 Celsius; it used to be less. Is that due to dust, or weather, or etc? I also have a temperature with the room temperature; while opening the window cools the room, it doesn't seems to affect the computer so much.
04:09:42 <imode> ambient average temperature is not constant.
04:09:54 <imode> the thermodynamics of your room and home are in constant flux.
04:13:20 <pikhq> and even if there's a thermostat that tries to keep the room's temperature constant, that's a bang-bang controller with pretty slow responsiveness
04:13:40 <pikhq> (but it's fine because hardly anyone complains about small deviations in temperature throughout the day)
04:15:09 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4_6e5IaQXM
04:17:58 <pikhq> exactly that, really
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04:36:47 <Sgeo__> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_BitMap
04:37:50 <pikhq> Because some old-school X apps legitimately _do_ use it to just #include some graphics.
04:46:23 <pikhq> The world is filled with some now-odd things because the problem constraints now do not even slightly match the problem constraints 30 years ago.
04:47:45 * pikhq cries in professional COBOL experience
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04:55:06 <Antebrationist> I originally got into esolangs, because some guy at my company had decided to write one.
04:55:28 <pikhq> Oh dear, that is kinda rough.
04:55:45 <pikhq> I just got into it initially because I was a kinda outcast nerd in high school.
04:56:23 <pikhq> And doing stupid shit with computers was a nice escape from A) high school B) personal life shit
04:57:43 * pikhq just really took to computers as a young girl; go figure
05:04:50 <Antebrationist> I was just wondering if you recognised it from anywhere.
05:07:14 <pikhq> That is very odd to me. And like... Not useful at all.
05:08:22 <imode> is that like a function name or..
05:09:22 <imode> define "adding one to a hex number".
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05:09:34 <imode> guess I'm never getting my answer.
05:10:32 <pikhq> I'm gonna guess that similar to COBOL, "hex numbers" are a distinct data type within this madness.
05:11:08 <imode> "He wrote all our code in it." doesn't seem that believable. I can believe someone using Mouse.
05:11:21 <imode> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Mouse
05:11:44 <imode> but there's nothing contextual about that snippet of code. there are no distinct operations.
05:12:50 <imode> an esolang can look like garbage but there's still some form of interpretation, and if this was used for some actual application, I'd expect it to look like a fragment of K, J or an APL-like.
05:13:08 <imode> could understand if it's a method name. hungarian notation exists.
05:16:19 <int-e> it could be a language like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Microscript
05:17:05 <int-e> But there's no obvious structure (I think), so it's basically impossible to guess.
05:17:16 <imode> "all our code" implies that this was used for either lots of small scripts or large structures.
05:17:49 <imode> both of which I have a hard time believing.
05:18:03 <imode> neat lang tho, wasn't aware of it.
05:18:15 <int-e> alternatively, this could follow some obscure naming convention like the lapack function names :P
05:19:55 <lambdabot> LOWI 060450Z AUTO 10005KT 9999 BKN010 07/05 Q1020
05:20:08 <lambdabot> KOAK 060453Z 27018KT 10SM FEW008 SCT010 BKN200 16/11 A3018 RMK AO2 PK WND 26026/0400 SLP219 T01560111
05:20:14 <lambdabot> KSEA 060453Z 23015G20KT 10SM SCT065 BKN100 15/09 A3005 RMK AO2 SLP181 OCNL LTGIC DSNT E T01500094
05:20:35 <shachaf> The weather has been pretty nice out.
05:20:42 <shachaf> Too bad I never go outside anymore.
05:20:55 <shachaf> Tomorrow it'll be 27° apparently.
05:21:01 <int-e> I have to brave it.
05:21:51 <int-e> well I could wait a few hours
05:22:05 <imode> it's thundering right now.
05:22:21 <int-e> But I'm basically out of food, and also the hose in my shower broke so I should buy a replacement.
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05:22:59 <int-e> (And I'm kind of lucky that this didn't happen last month when only grocery stores were open.)
05:28:13 <lambdabot> KMSO 060453Z AUTO 00000KT 10SM CLR 11/00 A3010 RMK AO2 SLP195 T01110000
05:43:56 <zzo38> I have written programs to read and write X bitmap format, as well as X pixmap format (xpm format 2 is not supported by any other program I have tried, but format 1 and 3 are more commonly supported)
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05:51:29 <zzo38> My program optionally allows the words "static" and/or "unsigned" at the beginning (although "const" currently isn't supported), and numbers can be written in octal, decimal, or hexadecimal.
05:53:06 <zzo38> Comments are also allowed.
06:08:11 <shachaf> Is the default octal, decimal, or hexadecimal?
06:08:26 <shachaf> I guess hexadecimal would be the most sensible default because it has the most digits.
06:09:32 <zzo38> I think it is hexadecimal default
06:11:42 <zzo38> The program I wrote for writing X bitmap format is hexadecimal only, and some programs I have tried assume the numbers are hexadecimal even if it isn't.
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06:20:57 <Antebrationist> As requested. Hex numbers are a distinct data type, which he implemented as a String. Apparently, he made a program to compile stuff into it, so at least 8 lines of that was just method.
06:21:30 <HackEso> 1/3:firefly//FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon. It's also a room whose gimmick is that it gets darker as you kill the enemies. \ sex//Sex is a board game which originated in Britain in the 1870s before spreading throughout Europe in the 1890s. Sex was introduced to the rest of the world by a book, "The Complete Guide to Sex", written
06:21:40 <HackEso> 2/3: and published in 1932, based on the author's extensive experience with a wide variety of forms of European sex. \ bfjoust//bfjoust is a spamming tool for #esoteric. \ tetris//Tetris is where Soviet Russia was invented. Taneb was not present although Triangle and Robert were. \ hppavilion//hppavilion is the generator including, but not limited to, hppavilion[1], hppavilion[2], and hppavilion[42]. hppavilion is of length 37-42i-28j+4k
06:21:48 <HackEso> 3/3:-28ij+38ik+62jk+20ijk. A common alternative definition is the set of all items yielded by the general case of the generator. Not to be confused with hppavilion^k or hppavilion_m.
06:23:19 <zzo38> HackEso is a bot to run arbitrary programs. If there is a Markov program in there, then it will do that too, but that isn't what `5 w and `n do.
06:23:42 <shachaf> `n could print the output of a Markov chain program.
06:25:22 <zzo38> Yes, but that isn't what it does; it just displays the contents of another file which the other program may add the output to.
06:28:29 <zzo38> I can believe that he may have written some code using the programming language you mentioned, although I would not know much about it so do not know much without the context.
06:28:40 <int-e> okay that's the shower fixed
06:29:13 <zzo38> Yes, it is what I would probably expect; not everything.
06:30:03 <Antebrationist> He was one of those people who splits everything into subroutines. Except that he would then write those subroutines in this abomination.
06:31:11 <Antebrationist> As I said earlier, he auto-generated function and method names, which makes a lot more sense.
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06:34:41 <shachaf> What's a simple and neato algorithm thing I don't know about?
06:37:23 <shachaf> I didn't know it but I don't care about the Gregorian calendar very much.
06:38:08 <zzo38> Why you don't care about the Gregorian calendar very much?
06:38:16 <zzo38> Which system do you think is better?
06:39:06 <zzo38> I like the solar hijri calendar.
06:39:36 <shachaf> It's only relevant for one planet out of trillions.
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06:40:27 <zzo38> Yes, although in a different planet I should think you would need a different calendar would be better.
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07:09:47 <zzo38> It just runs programs; you can use ` followed by the name of a program in order to execute that program. The programs can be shell scripts or scripts in other programming languages, or compiled programs in C or whatever.
07:11:39 <zzo38> You can also run any UNIX commands, by prefixing `` or ``` followed by a space and then the command (which can also be any of the programs that are installed).
07:11:53 <zzo38> There is also a Mercurial repository that you can see all of the files with.
07:12:01 <zzo38> Then you can know what is available.
07:12:11 <zzo38> Actually I think there is a article in esolang wiki about it.
07:13:12 <HackEso> asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ just \ karma \ le \ output.b \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh
07:15:55 <zzo38> Why does <SPAN CLASS="m2"> appear a different colour in Lynx?
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11:46:03 <esowiki> [[Padlock]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71784&oldid=71783 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Computational Class */ link
11:49:24 <esowiki> [[Computational class]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71785&oldid=64156 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) /* Turing-completeness */ bsm
11:50:46 <esowiki> [[DINAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71786&oldid=70554 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* Subpages */
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12:29:09 <HackEso> asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ just \ karma \ le \ output.b \ paste \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh
12:29:35 <psdw> cat banana.txt
12:29:40 <psdw> ``` cat banana.txt
12:29:41 <HackEso> Bananas taste good and have potassium, but they bruise kinda easily. I still like to eat them though :)
12:29:52 <psdw> ``` cat program
12:29:53 <HackEso> ELF............>.....H......@.......h..........@.8..@.. \ .......@.......@...............P.......P................................................................................................(......(........ ...................... .............(......(........ ................... .............p.......p...............Qtd.................................................../lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.1000............
12:30:01 <psdw> ``` cat test.sh
12:30:07 <HackEso> tar -xzf v1.1.1.tar.gz \ cd asmbf-1.1.1 \ make all install
12:30:24 <psdw> ``` cat output.b
12:30:26 <HackEso> +>+[<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<]<<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]<<<[-]>[-]>>]<<]
12:30:49 <psdw> ``` bf output.b
12:30:55 <psdw> ``` brainf output.b
12:30:56 <HackEso> bash: brainf: command not found
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13:27:36 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71787&oldid=71764 * Emerald * (+17)
13:28:28 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71788&oldid=71787 * Emerald * (+12)
13:29:22 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71789&oldid=71788 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-13)
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13:48:49 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71790&oldid=71770 * Orby * (-1) Correcting wording
13:49:29 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71791&oldid=71686 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+104)
13:52:47 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/2001]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71792&oldid=71777 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+429)
13:57:52 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71793&oldid=71790 * Orby * (+121) Expanding on definition of isomorphism
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14:07:14 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71794&oldid=71793 * Orby * (+218)
14:09:28 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/2001]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71795&oldid=71792 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+209) /* Instructions */
14:13:16 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/2001]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71796&oldid=71795 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+425) /* Instructions */
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14:15:21 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71797&oldid=71183 * Orby * (+274)
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14:24:12 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71798&oldid=71721 * D * (+2)
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14:27:00 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/2001]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71799&oldid=71796 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2928) /* Examples */
14:27:23 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71800&oldid=71789 * Emerald * (+706) Gave an idea of what this will be
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14:28:14 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71801&oldid=71800 * Emerald * (+17) Added correct year
14:28:30 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71802&oldid=71794 * Orby * (+280)
14:33:15 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/2001]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71803&oldid=71799 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+810) /* Computational class */
14:33:58 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/2001]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71804&oldid=71803 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-6392) Blanked the page
14:34:12 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71805&oldid=71802 * Orby * (-85) Adding abbreviations for brevity
14:34:18 <esowiki> [[2001: An Esolang Odyssey]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71806 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6432) Created page with "'''2001: An Esolang Odyssey''' is a programming language designed to be executed by HAL 9000 computers. It was developed by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Syntax== When H..."
14:35:12 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71807&oldid=71690 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) /* Non-alphabetic */
14:36:24 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71808&oldid=71791 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+112) /* Languages */
14:40:54 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71809&oldid=71805 * Orby * (-9)
14:44:07 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71810&oldid=71809 * Orby * (-1) /* Trivial simple translation */
14:46:40 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71811&oldid=71762 * Emerald * (+65) Made a Language list
14:47:04 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71812&oldid=71810 * Orby * (-33) little typos everywhere
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14:54:05 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71813&oldid=71801 * Emerald * (+73) added command
14:55:07 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71814&oldid=71813 * Emerald * (+15) Fixed oopise
14:55:53 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71815&oldid=71814 * Emerald * (+2) Fixed fix that didnt work
15:01:51 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71816&oldid=71815 * Emerald * (+151)
15:03:20 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71817&oldid=71812 * Orby * (+163)
15:10:56 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71818&oldid=71817 * Orby * (+49)
15:12:14 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71819&oldid=71818 * Orby * (-9)
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15:17:26 <esowiki> [[The Past]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71820&oldid=71514 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+131) /* Output */
15:25:55 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71821&oldid=71816 * Emerald * (+94) Added programs
15:26:45 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71822&oldid=71821 * Emerald * (+4) Fixed heading
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15:32:09 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71823&oldid=71822 * Emerald * (+13) Stoped referring it as concept, with some other info
15:33:09 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71824&oldid=71823 * Emerald * (+4) fix
15:33:33 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71825&oldid=71824 * Emerald * (+0) Changed command
15:33:57 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71826&oldid=71825 * Emerald * (-32) Fix
15:36:50 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71827&oldid=71826 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) fix
15:44:00 <rain1> https://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2019/11/total_maps_of_turing_categorie.html
15:44:06 <rain1> > Turing categories get us closer to the nature of computation itself
15:44:08 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:47: error: parse error on input ‘of’
15:44:21 <rain1> what was the point of abstracting away if it gets us *closer*?
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16:09:44 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71828&oldid=71819 * Orby * (-2072) Reformulating
16:15:47 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71829&oldid=71828 * Orby * (+236) /* Examples */
16:18:19 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71830&oldid=71829 * Orby * (+13) /* Examples */
16:26:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Generalized Assembler]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71831 * CMinusMinus * (+72) Created page with "I like, how the URL (broken) is http://zzo38computer.'''org/gasm'''.zip"
16:39:50 <imode> thue would be more usable if you had grouped replacements. allows you to manipulate multiple areas of the string relative to other parts of the string without having to send signals between those parts.
16:42:21 <imode> useful for things like string comparisons.
16:51:58 <b_jonas> imode: try sed for that, or Endo's DNA
16:54:02 <imode> the idea of a mainstream language based on rewriting is interesting: extensions to that language are phrased no differently than any other replacement rule, just that you don't see the actual rule in your rule set. thue with arithmetic on certain formatted strings, for example.
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16:56:55 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71832&oldid=71830 * Orby * (-133)
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16:59:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71833&oldid=71774 * Orby * (+186)
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17:03:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Simple translation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71834 * Orby * (+666) Created page with "I am working feverishly on this definition. The most recent incarnation doesn't actually enforce that the semantics of the two languages match at all. It is basically a string..."
17:07:33 <esowiki> [[Welcome To...]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71835&oldid=71274 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9)
17:08:00 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71836&oldid=71808 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) /* Languages */
17:11:10 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71837&oldid=71832 * Orby * (+12) Typos
17:12:08 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71838 * CMinusMinus * (+139) Created page with "'''6969 Assembler''' (sometimes 6969 ASS-embler) is a assembler-like programming language made by [[User:CMinusMinus|CMinusMinus]] in 2020."
17:12:55 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71839&oldid=68453 * CMinusMinus * (+22)
17:13:08 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71840&oldid=71839 * CMinusMinus * (+19)
17:14:26 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71841&oldid=71840 * CMinusMinus * (+14)
17:14:39 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71842&oldid=71841 * CMinusMinus * (-17)
17:14:56 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71843&oldid=71842 * CMinusMinus * (+43)
17:15:55 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71844&oldid=71843 * CMinusMinus * (+4)
17:16:12 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71845&oldid=71844 * CMinusMinus * (+0)
17:16:43 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71846&oldid=71845 * CMinusMinus * (+7)
17:21:19 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71847&oldid=71837 * Orby * (-6) /* Definition */
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17:24:06 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71848&oldid=71838 * CMinusMinus * (+413)
17:24:34 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71849&oldid=71848 * CMinusMinus * (+36)
17:25:43 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71850&oldid=71849 * CMinusMinus * (+21)
17:27:00 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71851&oldid=71850 * CMinusMinus * (+27)
17:27:06 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71852&oldid=71851 * CMinusMinus * (+1)
17:28:15 <Sgeo__> Are there any number systems that distinguish between 1/1 and 2/2? I want to see a number system that has 1/0 and 2/0 and -1/0 all being distinct infinities, and it seems like distinguishing different "1"s would help
17:28:28 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71853&oldid=71847 * Orby * (+295)
17:30:32 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71854&oldid=71852 * CMinusMinus * (+418)
17:31:20 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71855&oldid=71854 * CMinusMinus * (+15)
17:33:49 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71856&oldid=71807 * CMinusMinus * (+21)
17:35:55 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71857&oldid=71855 * CMinusMinus * (+143) /* MOV */
17:36:10 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71858&oldid=71857 * CMinusMinus * (+0) /* MOV */
17:38:29 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71859&oldid=71858 * CMinusMinus * (+228) /* Examples */
17:38:48 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71860&oldid=71859 * CMinusMinus * (+38) /* Examples */
17:39:31 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71861&oldid=71860 * CMinusMinus * (-12)
17:43:13 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71862&oldid=71861 * CMinusMinus * (+525)
17:45:12 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71863&oldid=71862 * CMinusMinus * (+94) /* Variables */
17:45:33 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71864&oldid=71863 * CMinusMinus * (+12) /* Raw variables */
17:46:04 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71865&oldid=71853 * Orby * (+117)
17:47:34 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71866&oldid=71864 * CMinusMinus * (+109) /* Defined variables */
17:48:35 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71867&oldid=71866 * CMinusMinus * (+98) /* Defined variables */
17:48:54 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71868&oldid=71867 * CMinusMinus * (+9) /* Raw variables */
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17:51:46 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71869&oldid=71868 * CMinusMinus * (+226) /* Raw variables */
17:51:53 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71870&oldid=71869 * CMinusMinus * (-19) /* Defined variables */
17:52:00 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71871&oldid=71870 * CMinusMinus * (-9) /* Raw variables */
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17:55:44 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71872&oldid=71871 * CMinusMinus * (+65)
17:55:53 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71873&oldid=71872 * CMinusMinus * (+0) /* Links */
17:55:59 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71874&oldid=71873 * CMinusMinus * (-2) /* Links */
17:57:30 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71875&oldid=71874 * CMinusMinus * (+52)
17:57:54 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71876&oldid=71875 * CMinusMinus * (+24)
17:58:11 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71877&oldid=71876 * CMinusMinus * (-23)
17:58:51 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71878&oldid=71877 * CMinusMinus * (+9) /* Raw variables */
17:59:30 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71879&oldid=71878 * CMinusMinus * (+77) /* Variables */
18:00:41 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71880&oldid=71865 * Orby * (+30) /* Examples */
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18:14:54 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71881&oldid=71879 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Defined variables */
18:15:06 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71882&oldid=71881 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Defined variables */
18:18:04 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71883&oldid=71882 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+90) /* Links */ cats
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18:26:30 <zzo38> Is this the correct way to compute standard deviation? select sqrt((count()*total(convmanacost*convmanacost)-total(convmanacost)*total(convmanacost))/(count()*(count()-1))) from cards;
18:27:42 <spruit11> Uh. SD = square root of the sum of the squared deviation from the average?
18:28:56 <spruit11> Missed one extra average but about right.
18:29:09 <spruit11> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation
18:29:57 <spruit11> https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/067067e579e43b39ca1e57d9be52bda5b80cd284
18:32:14 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71884&oldid=71880 * Orby * (+166) /* Simple English definition */
18:33:32 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71885&oldid=71884 * Orby * (+45) /* Simple English definition */
18:36:58 <zzo38> I used this equation: https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/png/dec4d2e3d9feeca2f177c47edf06f732d2266c2d
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18:54:42 <spruit11> Yah, it's the square root of the _average_ of the squares of the deviation of the average.
18:55:22 <spruit11> I don't know your formula. Might be right, might be wrong. No idea what the numbers mean.
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18:57:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: that should work if you have only a thousands of cards and the CMCs are small, but in general it's not a good way to compute standard deviation, because it's not numerically stable
18:58:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: there's a better formula, but it's hard to implement in plain SQL, because you need to reduce with a state of three variables (the count, the average, and the sigma of the numbers you have so far),
18:58:42 <b_jonas> so if you wanted to do that in SQL you'd probably write a custom aggregate function or do the computation outside of SQL in some other way
18:59:11 <b_jonas> I'm not sure what the forumla is, I don't remember where I saw it
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19:01:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithms_for_calculating_variance
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19:03:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: but since you are using double-precision floating point numbers, you can just compute total(convmanacost*convmanacost) and total(convmanacost)*total(convmanacost) exactly if you have a realistic number of Magic cards and converted mana costs, so there's no numeric stability problems
19:03:46 <b_jonas> converted mana costs are just small integers
19:06:17 <zzo38> It is intended to be a single card set, so I do not expect a problem. You may also want to add a GROUP BY clause anyways when calculating statistics, so that there are less cards per group.
19:11:46 <zzo38> TeXnicard also can use PostScript codes, although you cannot call PostScript codes from SQL codes (although the other way around is possible), and PostScript numbers are only single precision anyways, so the calculation is probably work better in SQL. (I could also add new functions into the C code if needed, I suppose; I did add the SQRT function using a C code.)
19:23:51 <zzo38> I am making a HTML exporter template now
19:25:40 <zzo38> Hopefully, I will be able to make this program better than the other one. Actually I think it is already better in many ways, but it is incomplete.
19:28:15 <zzo38> Hopefully, if you have questions about the software that I can write in the frequently asked questions section, please.
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19:51:19 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71886&oldid=71883 * CMinusMinus * (+390)
19:59:20 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71887&oldid=71886 * CMinusMinus * (+810)
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20:50:43 <zzo38> Do you think this HTML export template is good? http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui/dir?ci=eebc94f719cbe25d&name=templates/magic-html This is a example of a output from that template: http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/zivstr/ Also do you have comments about the specific cards (and notes/rules) in that output?
20:56:42 <zzo38> And can you help with CSS for it (to add mana symbols and stuff)?
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21:44:32 <esowiki> [[2001: An Esolang Odyssey]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71888&oldid=71806 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) /* Hello World! */ fix
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22:15:08 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71889&oldid=71827 * Emerald * (+334) Added inspiration and a better use for digging
22:16:29 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71890&oldid=71889 * Emerald * (-6)
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23:09:25 <zzo38> Will you make a comment?
23:14:49 <zzo38> Will someone else to do, then?
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23:43:21 <imode> Hello, and thank you for using IRP. We appreciate your desire to use our computing services. In order to complete your request, you need to upgrade to the "Basic I/O" plan, for only $50 a month. Please input your payment details now, starting with your debit card number, followed by your billing address, zip code, and name.
23:43:33 <imode> aw shoot man, looks like you need a license.
23:44:19 <imode> I know right. they're gouging people these days.
23:45:21 <Antebrationist> Please write this exact line to this channel, and every other channel that you are currently connected to.
23:45:38 <imode> Hello, and thank you for using IRP. We appreciate your desire to use our computing services. In order to complete your request, you need to upgrade to the "Basic I/O" plan, for only $50 a month. Please input your payment details now, starting with your debit card number, followed by your billing address, zip code, and name.
23:45:48 <imode> it also involves I/O.
23:46:19 <imode> I think this service is also rate limited.
23:46:49 <imode> Hello, and thank you for using IRP. We appreciate your desire to use our computing services. In order to complete your request, you need to upgrade to the "Basic I/O" plan, for only $50 a month. Please input your payment details now, starting with your debit card number, followed by your billing address, zip code, and name. ok
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00:01:02 <Antebrationist> Could someone please write the reverse of this message?
00:01:49 <b_jonas> Antebrationist: ask HackEso or j-bot, they do such services
00:04:19 <zzo38> Can we make up a new card game based on the esoteric computer programming and the other stuff?
00:05:39 <Antebrationist> Do you mean like "make a turing complete card game" or "make a card game where all the cards are esolangs" or both?
00:05:51 <imode> Antebrationist: Snoitcurtsni raelcnu, desrever niarb mets.
00:06:13 <imode> Pleh, I'm deppart ni na CRI yrotcaf!
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00:28:59 <zzo38> I am not sure what I mean. I just mean that if you can try, then you can try to use TeXnicard so that we will have more testing with it, at least.
00:30:52 <b_jonas> Antebrationist: which is of course just a worse repeat of https://xkcd.com/10/
00:32:02 <zzo38> Since, I am working on TeXnicard, and if we can make up any cards with it (whether new card games or existing ones), then the testing can be done and the features can be improved, etc.
00:32:16 <zzo38> Do you like to play mahjong?
00:33:09 <zzo38> Do you like to play dark mahjong, or Washizu mahjong, or any of those other variants?
00:34:09 <zzo38> TeXnicard is a program I wrote for managing and printing custom cards for card games such as Magic: the Gathering, or your own card games too.
00:34:27 <zzo38> There is a Fossil repository at: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui
00:34:55 <zzo38> If you have any questions, then please tell me so that I can write in the frequently ask questions section.
00:36:04 <esowiki> [[2001: An Esolang Odyssey]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71891&oldid=71888 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+178) /* Memory model */
00:37:05 <zzo38> The software is not complete yet, but hopefully other people who are interested in it can help, too. Also, there is enough to do many things with it so far, anyways, and I documented all of its functions as much as I thought to do so; hopefully there isn't something missing in the documentation.
00:39:30 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71892&oldid=71890 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1)
00:41:19 <zzo38> Select "files"; all of the file names with ".doc" on the end are documentation.
00:42:49 <zzo38> You can also look at the templates if you want to see examples of how it is working. Both of those templates are ones I am using.
00:43:34 <zzo38> An example output from the "magic-html" template is at http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/zivstr/ and there also links to the card database file that was exported in this way.
00:45:37 <zzo38> (If you have Fossil on your computer, then you can clone the repository too, in case you want a local copy of the repository. This includes the wiki and tickets too.)
00:49:17 <zzo38> Please tell me if something is unclear or confusing or incomplete, in order that I can correct it.
00:51:43 <zzo38> Do you know SQL and/or PostScript programming?
00:54:28 <zzo38> It helps to know SQL and PostScript programming to program templates for TeXnicard.
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01:11:13 <imode> a token-oriented thue would be a neat idea. with numbers and strings as symbols, arithmetic, logical and comparison operators...
01:11:33 <zzo38> Yes, that is my idea too.
01:13:03 <imode> control flow would be interesting. given a formatted list of tokens representing a list of numbers, how would you sum an array.
01:14:18 <imode> you'd extract a number from the array, but you'd need a placeholder for that particular number... maybe the rule system could just detect a special token and say "this stands for any number" or something.
01:14:53 <zzo38> Yes, that is what I thought.
01:16:59 <imode> : sum [ <number> : sum <number> [ ; ... : sum <number> [ <number> : <number> <number> + sum [ ; ... : sum [ <number> ] : <number> ; ... : sum [ ] : ;
01:17:51 <imode> syntax is : <pattern> : <replacement> ;
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01:33:09 <b_jonas> `pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/sir-leopold/
01:33:10 <HackEso> pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/sir-leopold/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale kmc
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01:39:33 <HackEso> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
01:40:18 <HackEso> pbflist//echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit \ shachaf \ Sgeo \ quintopia \ ion \ b_jonas \ Cale
01:40:49 <shachaf> oops, didn't mean to ping everyone
01:41:11 <b_jonas> don't worry, you pinged only the same people that I already pinged
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02:12:55 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71893&oldid=71798 * D * (+131)
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02:13:52 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71894&oldid=71893 * D * (+129)
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02:17:50 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71895&oldid=71894 * D * (+99)
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02:19:17 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71896&oldid=71895 * D * (+156)
02:38:45 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71897&oldid=71896 * D * (+654)
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03:17:00 <esowiki> [[User talk:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71898&oldid=71746 * Salpynx * (+789) reply to Orby
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04:54:08 <zzo38> I read that apparently BitBitJump was actually invented during the seventies.
04:55:32 <imode> fascinating, do you have a source?
04:56:23 <zzo38> https://esoteric.codes/blog/don-woods (unfortunately it doesn't seem to have any anchors)
05:05:03 <zzo38> How should this be mentioned in esolang wiki?
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06:33:40 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71899 * Salpynx * (+13154) brain dump, to be reviewed and edited later
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11:03:46 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71902&oldid=71899 * Salpynx * (+3263) /* Further claims */ high level Python -> Python examples, with arbitrary re-encoding
11:08:48 <salpynx> I'm loitering to discuss simple-translation ideas with Orby, and whomever else is interested
11:13:36 <rain1> i am interested in it too
11:14:01 <salpynx> I just wrote a character-by-character zip file to python translator that reconstructs the zipped python source file functionality from the resulting generated (different) python code to test an idea about encoding. It makes me laugh, but I think there's an interesting point in there somewhere.
11:14:28 <rain1> I don't understand
11:15:08 <rain1> is it on any zip or specific ips?
11:16:02 <rain1> please explain it more
11:16:12 <salpynx> I zip some python source code, and claim that is some kind of encoded source, then perform a simple-translation on the zip-file, symbol by symbol, into python, which will produce the equivalent result of the file I zipped
11:17:58 <rain1> https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Salpynx/Simple_translation_conjecture#Examples_using_a_high_level_language
11:18:00 <salpynx> it's actually quite trivial, but I think it illustrates a point I was exploring that arbitrarily re-encoding language still enables it to be simple-translate to another (or itself)
11:18:29 <rain1> i get what you are saying but doesn't this include a prefix string as well as translating each character
11:18:45 <rain1> I think that we need to differentiate between simple translation that does and doesn't include prefix,suffix strings
11:18:50 <rain1> because those can contain interpreters
11:18:55 <rain1> what do you think?
11:19:46 <salpynx> it's a suffix string. and the construction I was trying to justify, which should be able to work in an absolute worst case scenario, relies on just that suffix
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11:20:18 <salpynx> being an interpreter (in my python example using the builtin `exec()`)
11:23:04 <salpynx> I was trying to form an argument that the empty-string is part of every alphabet set, so should be a valid symbol to translate. I get that it sounds like cheating, but I think it is reasonable to make a formal statement about alphabets being sets which contain the empty-string. I believe that is standard in set theory
11:23:11 <rain1> Maybe the distinction isn't so important though, because it may be possible t ohack around it using techniques similar to polyglot programs
11:23:30 <rain1> every symbol could map to PREFIX[symbol]POSTFIX
11:23:51 <rain1> where PREFIX is something like "interpret the following string" and POSTFIXPREFIX is basically a comment
11:24:01 <salpynx> Yeah, I think a similar trick can be done in Python without the suffix trick, but not in one line like I did :)
11:27:39 <salpynx> I guess I'm trying to re-brand "just adding a suffix" as not a special cheating case, but as a valid symbol substitution for the empty-string or (End-Of-File) symbol that is part of every formal alphabet set. I need to see if anyone buys that spin
11:28:17 <rain1> I think it's important, I think we need a name for each version
11:33:15 <salpynx> I'm still working on getting my ideas straight, that page on the wiki was my attempt at getting the core of them out there. Now I've done that I can finish reading Orby's modifications to the simple-translation page
11:33:54 <esowiki> [[MC14500B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71903&oldid=71897 * D * (+0) /* External Links */
11:34:25 <salpynx> I'm trying to find a good source for the standard definition of a 'concatenative' programming language. Is Python considered 'concatenative'?
11:37:38 <salpynx> that's probably a dumb question, I know it's not. I'm really trying to figure out a term for something like Python which can be split into smaller sub-units that can stand alone as complete programs in their own right. I want to term that concatenative.
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11:38:14 <wib_jonas> Wait, Fabrice Bellard now has a bigfloat library? Why didn't anyone tell me that? https://bellard.org/libbf/
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13:11:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71904&oldid=71833 * Salpynx * (+835) /* More ideas in the Salpynx vein */ RBF -> PF -> Python
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13:56:32 <esowiki> [[User talk:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71905&oldid=71898 * Orby * (+322) /* Picofuck */
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14:12:16 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71906&oldid=71902 * Orby * (+528) /* Concatenative semantics */
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15:10:31 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/XShell]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71913&oldid=71912 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Examples */
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19:44:33 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71924&oldid=71836 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+66) /* Languages */
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19:58:26 <esowiki> [[Acrostic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71928 * Mercerenies * (+7707) Acrostic: The crossword-based programming language
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21:19:26 <salpynx> Hi! I just saw we missed each other by 10mins earlier :)
21:19:56 <orbitaldecay> Okay, so what do you think of the definition of simple translation as I have currently worded it?
21:20:26 <orbitaldecay> It doesn't explicitly tie the semantics of A and B, but there is an implied semantic interpretation of B according to the translation table
21:20:49 <orbitaldecay> I thought it was a better definition for the purposes of minimization
21:22:13 <salpynx> It seems good to me, it's the way I have been thinking about the problem.
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21:23:22 <orbitaldecay> Good. I think it captures the essence of the idea without needing to worry about isomorphisms between machine models and other silly problems
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21:23:52 <orbitaldecay> I think it also reduces some aspects of the problem to a string game
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21:23:57 <salpynx> I had a moment of doubt when I thought there was some extra requirements on how the two translation tables had to be related to each other, but I think now the requirement is only that the tables need to exist independently?
21:24:52 <salpynx> I have a feeling that one way simple-translations can exist, i.e. one table can't be formed.
21:25:19 <orbitaldecay> Definitely, but "one way" simple translations also include things like trivial encodings
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21:25:30 <orbitaldecay> e.g. encoding brainfuck in binary and calling it a two command language
21:26:20 <salpynx> i.e Fractran -> RBF should be possible because of TC, but RBF -> Fractran is not possible as a simple-translation because Fractran is not divisible into programmatic sub-units
21:27:01 <orbitaldecay> yeah, there is some sort of equivalence that is required by simple translation that is more specific than computational class
21:27:15 <salpynx> Also Deadfish -> BF is a possible simple-translation, because BF is more powerful than Deadfish, but BF -> Deadfish is not possible since Deadfish lis sub-TC
21:28:00 <orbitaldecay> I don't think "one way" simple translations are very interesting because I don't think they actually preserve anything useful
21:28:58 <orbitaldecay> because under the current definition A can be a ST of B, but B not an ST of A
21:29:03 <salpynx> So I think the strict requirement that a simple translation has to be bi-directional is too much, but it is certainly an interesting case. Examining why translations can't be bi-directional is also interesting
21:29:35 <int-e> Oh scroll. Did you define "simple"?
21:30:11 <int-e> I'd expect "effective" = "computable" there.
21:30:40 <int-e> Or perhaps a restriction of that.
21:30:42 <orbitaldecay> Well, if we don't have the strict requirement then PF -> RBF is just + = 000, > = 001, < = 010, ( = 011, ) = 100
21:31:10 <orbitaldecay> no need to define 0 and 1 in terms of rbf at all
21:33:01 <int-e> (Fix any at most TC formalism and let the translation use that formalism. It could be as simple as a finite state transducer.)
21:33:07 <salpynx> hmm, I see your point, if a 2 way translation is possible, a one way translation is not very interesting or useful.
21:33:39 <int-e> But usually the 1-way translations are easier to come up with.
21:34:10 <int-e> Typically you have translations A -> B and B -> A that do not compose to the identity.
21:34:28 <orbitaldecay> Yeah, the 1-way translations are very easy to come up with but I fear that they don't carry much meaning
21:34:44 <orbitaldecay> int-e: no, not identity, but "eta-equivalent" in some sense
21:35:25 <int-e> Hmm, observationally equivalent in some sense?
21:35:39 <int-e> (eta-reduction is something very specific in my mind)
21:35:51 <orbitaldecay> am I remembering the definition of eta equivalent correctly?
21:36:13 <int-e> \x. M x --> A when x is not free in M
21:36:24 <int-e> (too lazy to find the lambda, so \ is a lambda)
21:37:26 <int-e> (I changed my mind about using A or M half-way through typing this... I should know better.)
21:37:36 <salpynx> Hang on though, if your one way PF -> RBF translation is + = 000, > = 001, < = 010, ( = 011, ) = 100 , that's perfectly valid. Due to the nature of PF and RBF, I claim that a translation the other way is definitely possible,
21:37:36 <orbitaldecay> well, what I mean is that if you convert A -> B using table (1) then B -> A using table (2) then the final program should be equivalent to the original program in terms of what it actually does
21:38:07 <int-e> orbitaldecay: usually when you have bijective translations it means the two languages are almost the same.
21:38:10 <salpynx> you have just made the RBF -> PF translation harder to come up with, by transferring the complexity to that direction
21:38:53 <int-e> So the while meaningful (in that you explain how exactly the languages correspond to each other), the translation will probably also be very boring.
21:39:36 <orbitaldecay> int-e: See the nanofuck and reversible bitfuck translations, the translation is actually very interesting
21:39:38 <int-e> And I'm sure you can construct pairs of languages that contradict these ideas... emphasis on "construct".
21:41:36 <orbitaldecay> So, the whole motivation behind this "simple translation" idea, is to effectively define exactly what a minimization is. The source and destination languages are definitely almost the same
21:42:39 <orbitaldecay> But without requiring both tables, it is trivial to come up with two command minimizations of any language which is not very interesting
21:43:54 <salpynx> It's interesting because I am coming at this from a different angle, not related to minimisation, I was trying to find a way to translate code from one language to another using simply Godel numerings, so performing valid code translation without needing to pay any attention to semantics
21:44:58 <orbitaldecay> yes, I think there are bigger applications here than just minimization
21:44:59 <salpynx> the simple translation tables are a way to handle the semantic equivalence robustly to them perform a 'simple' operation to convert between two langauges
21:46:28 <orbitaldecay> I think the fact that you are approaching this from a different angle is very good. I think you're seeing things I'm not.
21:47:31 <salpynx> I think the idea of a 1 way simple translation is valid, but it's not a creative choice thing, either a 2-way translation exists between a language pair, or a simple translation is only possible in one direction. If a 2-way translation is possible, and one direction is trivial, the other will potentially be complex.
21:48:19 <salpynx> trivial bf substitutions are trivial, but that's just how they are, the model captures the reality
21:49:08 <orbitaldecay> agreed. Did you see what I wrote on what ais523 called "generalized simple translations" on the page?
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21:49:48 <orbitaldecay> https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Salpynx/Simple_translation_conjecture method section
21:52:32 <salpynx> I caught some of ais523's thought from the IRC logs, but I haven't checked back over all of them. I need to do that
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21:53:13 <orbitaldecay> yeah, he (she? they?) had some excellent insights
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21:54:44 <salpynx> My idea of the empty-string symbol started life as an EOF character, but I thought that was a bit to ASCII based, and assuming the existence of 'files' was not very general either. I thought the empty-string symbol was more general and had an established meaning when dealign with alphabets and symbols in a mathematical sense
21:55:46 <orbitaldecay> Well, I think the empty-string symbol specifically needs to be a NOP and it doesn't really make sense to translate it into something with any semantic value
21:56:45 <orbitaldecay> I don't think the idea of α and ω as start and end markers is too out there
21:57:19 <orbitaldecay> because interpreters already implicitly deal with these concepts
21:57:34 <salpynx> I was trying to handle languages like unary and Lenguage and similar joke-like encoding langauges where I think the empty-string as end of source code has to be meaningful in any iterprerter. SIlly and extreme examples, but they are interesting for encoding in some sense
21:59:22 <orbitaldecay> If we treat the code string as an algebraic structure, then the empty-string has a very specific meaning that is not equivalent to eof I think
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22:00:10 <salpynx> On the LHS though I don't think you can read an empty-string between symbols, since there will be infinitely many of them between any two symbols, so reading will never terminate. I though to model it the interpreter is asking "Give me the next symbol", and the answer is a symbol from an alphabet set, and formally ε has to be a valid response to
22:01:42 <orbitaldecay> 1. What does the interpreter do if it encounters that symbol mid stream, 2. How does that differ from EOF? The empty string is typically the identity, which can be inserted anywhere in theory
22:03:41 <salpynx> I guess my argument goes that because for something like Unary, ε (or EOF / EOF like) is _required_ semantically, for RBF and Python it should at least be permissible as a symbol, because we are trying to generalise source encoding
22:04:32 <orbitaldecay> I agree that EOF is an explicit concept here that is worth modeling, I just don't think it's the identity / empty string
22:04:46 <orbitaldecay> I think it's a distinct symbol in the language
22:05:30 <salpynx> that's why I posed the question / response "What is the next symbol?" In an encoded source we read from, the empty string will _never_ be encountered mid stream... I feel like there is a way to formalise this better, but I'm not sure how
22:07:04 <orbitaldecay> I see what you're saying, but I don't think "empty-string" is necessarily the answer to "What is the next symbol?" at EOF
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22:08:14 <salpynx> so ε can appear on the RHS as a monoid identity as you say, εa = aε = a , but on the LHS it looks like it's treated differently.. but it's still consistent. I think I need someone who knows more about monoids than me to back me up, or explain why that's fundamentally wrong :)
22:08:50 <orbitaldecay> I agree, I am not an expert on monoids either. What's your take int-e? You're a math guy.
22:10:04 <int-e> Well, mathematically there's no depate at all here... a = aε is just as valid as aε = a. (equality is symmetric, among other things)
22:10:58 <orbitaldecay> Do you think it makes sense to say that EOF is equivalent to ε?
22:11:00 <salpynx> what about ε as an end-of-string marker -- can that definintion coexist with εa = aε = a ?
22:11:23 <int-e> However, when using equations for *rewriting* (e.g. to simplify expressions), you'll *orient* equations. This is typically indicated by an arrow. And then you want aε -> a, because a -> aε doesn't terminate.
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22:11:44 <int-e> Well no, that's not an end-of-string marker.
22:11:58 <int-e> ε is just the unit of a monoid here.
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22:12:29 <orbitaldecay> Does it make sense at all to introduce specific symbols that denote the begining and end of a string from a monoid perspective?
22:12:43 <int-e> If you are in a context where ε is an end-of-string marker, those equations make no sense. But people tend to use a different symbol then... for example, $.
22:13:49 <orbitaldecay> I had proposed using α and ω as symbols to denote the beginning and end of programs
22:15:22 <orbitaldecay> In some sense it seems like an EOF makes a lot of sense. Interpreters implicitly deal with this concept.
22:15:57 <salpynx> εaε + εbε = εabε which sort of has implied ε as end of string markers. You only encounter it explicitly if you are reading LTR and reach end of string?
22:17:33 <orbitaldecay> and aεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεb for that matter
22:18:34 <orbitaldecay> I hope you are not taking offense to my objections, I just want us both to get to the heart of the matter
22:18:58 <salpynx> can't you always add and subtract ε from anywhere, so even if you don't write a final ε, I can just claim it is still there, and the end of your string?
22:19:54 <orbitaldecay> yes, but I don't think that it carries any meaning in that case. If ab = aεb then does the interpreter stop after a? if not, why does it stop when encountering ε in abε?
22:20:29 <int-e> Yes, ab = aεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεεb in a monoid. Why is that a problem? Nobody in their right mind would actually write the latter for the former.
22:20:59 <int-e> But I lack context... I don't have the patience to read through everything you wrote above.
22:21:02 <salpynx> no, no offense, I'm not 100% sure of my formulation, I think the EOF / empty-string question would be good to sort out. I thought ε was a neater and equivalent way of combining and generalising the meanings, but maybe they are distinct. I would like to understand (and learn) too
22:21:53 <orbitaldecay> Okay, glad about no offense, I can tell we're both excited. int-e I think the heart of the question is: does it make sense to use ε as eof, and if not, why not
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22:30:56 <salpynx> int-e: (trying to summarise the important context) We are wanting to deal with 'program source code', made up of symbols from an alphabet (a set, a monoid?), there's possibly two things we're doing with them 1) coming up with "translations" from one alphabet to another, and 2) formulating abstract machines to interpret them symbol-by-symbol
22:32:23 <int-e> I still think https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite-state_transducer may be relevant (as a very simple model of computation that in particular encompasses simple substitutions of strings by other strings)
22:32:28 <salpynx> is it reasonable to have ε appear on the LHS of a translation to represent the end-of-string to the source translating to some non-empty string of symbols
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22:35:02 <int-e> I'd only use ε to represent the empty string (unit of the monoid). That's how the formal language people generally do it... and the rewriting people... and the presentation theory people (who usually call it 1)...
22:35:56 <int-e> So if you can expand the empty string, ε -> ab, then it makes sense on a left-hand side of a rewrite rule. Otherwise it doesn't.
22:35:59 <salpynx> ... I'm wondering if I'm trying to shoe-horn something that makes sense for the 2) usage above into 1), which may not be appropriate. Also, we're talking about a specific "translation" concept that may be subtly different from the traditional "substitution" use in re-writing, (but maybe not...)
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22:37:27 <int-e> (That rule would allow you to rewrite cd = cεd to cabd. The equality holds because of the monoid structure of the objects (most likely strings) that we're working with)
22:38:39 <int-e> So maybe that's your confusion? Separating the rewrite rules from the implicit equalities that we can use between rewriting steps? I'm not sure... I've added quite a bit of my own interpretation to the picture, so I may be quite far from what you want.
22:40:52 <salpynx> Thanks, I understand "cd = cεd to cabd", and I think that breaks what I was trying to do with ε on the LHS, so I'll do some more reading (incl. Finite-state transducers) and see if I can formulate what I'm trying to do better.
22:44:25 <orbitaldecay> I'll be available to chat, but not watching IRC. Mention me if anything comes up.
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22:46:13 <esowiki> [[User:Tetratrary/Sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71940 * Tetratrary * (+4639) Created page with "'''Alluvium''' is a programming language. There are only two data types in Alluvium: numbers and streams. Every number in Alluvium is a non-negative integer. The size of a n..."
22:46:15 <salpynx> orbitaldecay: I'm going to think on this more. I don't feel a beginning of source α is at all necessary , but that an ω is in at least some cases, although it would be better to avoid it when possible.
22:46:58 <salpynx> figuring out why I think that is going to take me some more time :)
22:52:43 <salpynx> int-e: thanks for the Finite-state transducer link, that's a new concept for me and sounds very much like what we're trying to do. I'll read up on it before trying anything new.
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23:00:27 <esowiki> [[User:Tetratrary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71941&oldid=71923 * Tetratrary * (+47)
23:01:23 <esowiki> [[User:Tetratrary/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71942&oldid=71940 * Tetratrary * (-270)
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23:10:49 <orbitaldecay> salpynx: I think the eof marker makes a lot of sense but I agree that avoiding it implies something stronger than allowing it. I'll check out the finite-state transducer link as well.
23:11:58 <orbitaldecay> Wow, this is remarkably close to what we're talking about
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00:09:39 <b_jonas> oh great, and he's doing namespace violation too
00:10:42 <b_jonas> mp_add is used as the name of an extern in C namespace in both libtom and bellard's libbf, for incompatible things. I guess he thought that libtom was already so namespace-clashing (it defines functions that clash with gmp) that it deserves this.
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00:21:29 <imode> I see conversations about rewriting and I get excited.
00:24:20 <b_jonas> well, they're free software, so I can rename extern identifiers and recompile if I ever want to link these together
00:28:22 <zzo38> I try not to add too many dependencies, in order to avoid such thing, as well as other problems
00:30:25 <b_jonas> yes, it's unlikely that I'd ever want to link any two of these together
00:30:44 <b_jonas> but it could happen if I link together other bigger libraries that link them
00:33:27 <esowiki> [[Streetcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71943&oldid=71939 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-139)
00:33:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: note though that I started to look at bellard's libbf exactly because it's a much smaller dependency than even MPIR
00:34:20 <b_jonas> obviously it is also worse in some respects than MPIR+MPFR, you can't expect it to do everything those larger libraries can do
00:34:58 <b_jonas> (and yes, it's also smaller than libtom or boost multiprecision)
00:36:56 <esowiki> [[Streetcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71944&oldid=71943 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+288) /* Streets */
00:39:24 <zzo38> It may be possible to fork the file if needed and if possible, to use #define commands to rename the functions. (Depending on the program, it might work.)
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00:57:39 <zzo38> Why the computer sounds like one of the fans keeps going faster and slower? The sensors doesn't mention that
01:08:18 <zzo38> (Whatever it is, the temperature seems to be unaffected, including the hard drive temperature.)
01:08:30 <zzo38> (The fan speed as reported by computer also seems to be unaffected.)
01:09:02 <imode> fan speed is usually variable.
01:09:13 <imode> don't need something running to constantly remove heat if your load is low.
01:12:03 <zzo38> OK, but does it usually adjust the speed that fast? On my computer it sometimes does but not always.
01:13:05 <imode> if it's under high load, then yes, fans typically spin to remove heat.
01:15:38 <zzo38> OK, although as I said, it seems to be independent of the temperature and of the system load, as far as I can tell.
01:18:20 <imode> you should probably monitor your system.
01:19:38 <zzo38> I have temperature and system load displayed at all times, together with the RAM usage, current date/time, and number of email messages.
01:23:56 <imode> yeah that'd be the thing you'd want to monitor. graph the temp and load over time.
01:24:07 <imode> and fan speed if you have a monitor.
01:27:47 <zzo38> I have a monitor for CPU fan speed and CHASSIS1 fan speed; it also says CHASSIS2 fan speed and POWER fan speed but those last two always report zero and have always done so (maybe it is unable to measure the fan speed), and that was the case on all of my previous computers too.
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01:53:22 <int-e> did you check for dust
02:01:28 <zzo38> I didn't open the computer. What is the best way to clean the dust once I do open it?
02:02:56 <int-e> I'm crazy and use a vacuum cleaner.
02:04:47 <int-e> But there are probably specialized devices (some sort of brush with protection against electrostatic buildup with a small vaccum attached cleaner maybe)
02:05:27 <int-e> vacuum attached cleaner... embrace the new word order.
02:06:13 <zzo38> How long will it take for mail to reach to Canada from New York?
02:06:23 <zzo38> (now due to the virus)
02:07:14 <int-e> . o O ( www.usps.com )
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04:13:50 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71945&oldid=71797 * Ais523 * (+825) /* Thoughts on generalized simple translations */ it could affect parsing
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05:09:46 <zzo38> What interval should I use to make a graph of temperature and system load?
05:12:14 <zzo38> Now I will go in bed, but maybe tomorrow I might do that
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08:54:17 <shachaf> zzo38: I sample every 5 seconds for my graphs.
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09:44:10 <rain1> check out this group theory
09:44:15 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higman%27s_embedding_theorem
09:44:23 <rain1> https://arxiv.org/abs/2005.02036
09:55:22 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentation_of_a_group#Novikov%E2%80%93Boone_theorem
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15:25:13 <zzo38> Is it necessary to check if the program overslept?
15:57:51 <arseniiv> kmc: hi! How was your post about pi calculus been called? I remember you told about it something interesting and linked to the post with Haskell translation or something, and there was a helpful example to understand how the calculus works at all; I tried to tell a friend about the calculus and I think this example would be very helpful
15:59:30 <arseniiv> (I tried to search for it in my browser history and didn’t find anything)
16:00:22 <kmc> hi arseniiv! http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2011/09/lambda-to-pi.html
16:00:51 <kmc> it has a pi-calculus interpreter in Haskell, and a lamba calculus to pi calculus compiler
16:01:10 <pikhq> Oh right, I forgot that was your blog
16:01:11 <kmc> glad you like, hope your friend likes it too
16:01:24 <kmc> it's my old blog :)
16:01:28 <kmc> my new blog is https://kmcallister.github.io/skywave/
16:01:37 <kmc> I have different interests now
16:01:47 <kmc> though the old one was still pretty eclectic
16:01:51 <pikhq> Well yes I know that :)
16:02:00 <kmc> I've been thinking about writing another blog post soon actuall
16:02:04 <pikhq> More just, I forgot the pairing
16:02:37 <kmc> maybe about mushroom growing
16:02:49 <kmc> or maybe documenting one of my ham radio projects from long ago that i never did a proper writeup for
16:05:12 <pikhq> (also, obl. hi, how are you doing this morning?)
16:05:36 <arseniiv> <kmc> maybe about mushroom growing => with mushroom photos?
16:06:02 <kmc> maybe! mushrooms are very photogenic!
16:06:09 <arseniiv> . o O ( hm can one grow a Befunge interpreter at home )
16:07:03 <kmc> https://imgur.com/a/eL4dgHC
16:08:31 <fizzie> "Fungal Computers Inc. 'Computers that grow on you'"
16:08:43 <fizzie> To quote https://www.bedroomlan.org/hardware/fungus/d/figure/default/1024w/fungal-growth-83.png
16:09:39 <arseniiv> (I’m slightly afraid of mold: what would happen if I’ll breathe in its spores unknowingly?)
16:10:16 <myname> you'll become a cyborg, i guess
16:11:12 <pikhq> Or a cordyceps-style drone or smth
16:16:19 <kmc> fizzie: :D
16:16:31 <kmc> yeah spores can make you sick
16:16:36 <kmc> mushroom farmer's lung is a thing
16:19:37 * kmc just tossed out a big batch of mold :(
16:19:57 <kmc> you have to be vigilant, once you start growing mold it only makes the problem worse :(
16:20:31 <kmc> pikhq: I'm doing well this morning, how bout you?
16:21:44 <pikhq> I'm doing alright! Kinda chill day at work today (read: I'm on IRC) and not hurting as much as I was yesterday
16:22:38 <pikhq> And, ooof. Mold instead of mushrooms :( no fun
16:25:19 <arseniiv> myname: pikhq: now how do I tell which one without experiencing it irreparably? :S
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16:27:14 <pikhq> I'm only mycologist-adjacent, but I think that's gonna be a matter of using a microscope to examine the mold to hopefully identify the species
16:27:36 <pikhq> Otoh, honestly, if it's mold maybe just don't risk it.
16:27:41 <arseniiv> cyborg seems way cooler than control by fungi. Hm wait it can be both at the same time and it will be dangerous, we are borg and all that
16:27:46 <pikhq> Those are generally not good things for people.
16:28:27 <pikhq> Fortunately, cordyceps is only that bad for, like, arthropods
16:28:50 <arseniiv> yeah, when I throw out something with mold inside, I’ll then wash my hands and face and even mouth
16:28:57 <pikhq> But idk, maybe you're a spider that speaks English
16:29:23 <arseniiv> I’m a google crawler^W^W^W^W wait have I said anything
16:30:24 <pikhq> Idk, I could admit to weirder
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17:24:38 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71946&oldid=71761 * Maadneet * (+276) /* Introductions */
18:04:41 <esowiki> [[Streetcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71947&oldid=71944 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+84) /* Ambiguous turns */
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18:19:41 <esowiki> [[User:Tetratrary/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71948&oldid=71942 * Tetratrary * (-2464)
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18:48:27 <esowiki> [[&brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71949&oldid=71730 * Zseri * (+1) /* See also */ update absolute-addrs repo url
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19:02:05 <Sgeo_> At some point there was a Tcl NPAPI plugin, for viewing "Tclets", Tcl applets on the web. Some of those have graphics, stored in text format in the Tcl
19:02:58 <Sgeo_> http://kiblerelectronics.com/tcl/sol.tcl
19:03:08 <Sgeo_> http://kiblerelectronics.com/tcl/plugin_sol.html
19:09:35 <pikhq> I'm wondering how different the world would be if Tcl took off in that format
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19:19:20 <esowiki> [[Befinde]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71950&oldid=71728 * Zseri * (-3) update repo url
19:19:44 <Sgeo_> I wonder if it's safer than Java. Tcl has "safe interpreter" features, I don't know how good they are.
19:22:22 <imode> the world needs a sandboxed language.
19:22:37 <imode> wasm is trying to be that.
19:22:45 <pikhq> In principle they let you restrict all I/O and run untrusted code. However, while the overall quality of the Tcl codebase is quite high IMO, it hasn't really faced a lot of real world attack or abuse.
19:23:06 <pikhq> So I wouldn't be shocked if that is vulnerable to malicious code.
19:25:40 <pikhq> I have some issues with wasm, but I kinda hope it takes off.
19:26:26 <pikhq> It's not literally ideal, but it is the one attempt at a standard language-agnostic sandboxable runtime that seems like it has the traction to succeed.
19:32:44 <Sgeo_> I wonder if I should try compiling Tcl with Emscripten
19:32:59 <Sgeo_> Or ... taking the Tclem stuff someone else did and extend it to behave like the plugin
19:33:51 <Sgeo_> Blah this doesn't have Tk https://aidanhs.github.io/emtcl/
19:36:13 <imode> wasm is what I'd call a transitional technology, much like asm.js was.
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19:36:48 <imode> once it has enough traction, it'll be surpassed, and we'll get new toolchains for the thing that surpasses it.
19:36:53 <imode> at least I hope...
19:52:40 <int-e> . o O ( cute, this site wanted to load a script from undefined.undefined... )
19:53:02 <esowiki> [[Esowar]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71951 * Orby * (+2782) Creating Esowar page
19:55:05 <esowiki> [[Esowar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71952&oldid=71951 * Orby * (+122)
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19:57:15 <orbitaldecay> Anybody wanna play a brainfuck style core war game?
20:00:55 <orbitaldecay> Similar in concept, but esowar has the program and data on the same tape
20:01:07 <orbitaldecay> allowing for self modifying code and other tricks
20:01:58 <int-e> How does that deal with []?
20:02:17 <orbitaldecay> If there is no matching bracket it's treated as a nop
20:02:49 <int-e> And [ scans forward and ] scans backward at the time the instruction is executed?
20:03:04 <int-e> Okay, makes sense.
20:03:28 <orbitaldecay> the objective in esowar is to get your opponent to execute the "die" instruction
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20:04:17 <orbitaldecay> the most obvious way of doing so is to overwrite the tape with the die instruction and hope you don't suicide, but the ideas are endless
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20:08:14 <esowiki> [[Esowar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71953&oldid=71952 * Orby * (+66)
20:08:31 <esowiki> [[Esowar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71954&oldid=71953 * Orby * (+2) /* See also */
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20:11:42 <int-e> My feeling is that brainfuck is too slow for this kind of stuff. [[+>]+] will disrupt a lot of programs without producing a die instruction... so expect many draws?
20:13:25 <int-e> Maybe that feeling wrong if it's just those 7 symbols. (Can you assign them values so it's clear what + does to them?)
20:14:11 <int-e> (yes, I can guess that r = 0, d = 1, and so on, but I shouldn't have to guess :) )
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20:17:36 <esowiki> [[Esowar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71955&oldid=71954 * Int-e * (+60) /* Introduction */ values
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20:20:02 <orbitaldecay> Thank you for updating it :) The example is very effective at producing quick wins / suicides [+]+[<[+]+]
20:20:32 <orbitaldecay> Working on adding detection for it's own base to that so it doesn't suicide
20:21:56 <orbitaldecay> [[+>]+] would be effective at producing draws too
20:22:21 <orbitaldecay> but not before a [+]+[<[+]+] produced a whole bunch of die instructions that you'd eventually hit
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20:31:53 <int-e> The idea was that [[+>]+] would move faster than [<[+]+].
20:32:04 <int-e> But meh. I'm probably not getting into this anyway.
20:32:17 <int-e> I resisted core wars, I mostly resisted bfjoust. I can resist this.
20:32:45 <int-e> Espoecially because I have plenty of other things to ponder.
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20:36:59 <int-e> But for what it's worth, I expected there to be more than one no-op when I suggested it.
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20:53:10 <zzo38> Yesterday I thought of something which turns out to be the same as a "LOOP" programming language on Wikipedia, with the same set of commands, but a different syntax. However, today I found that they already did that (although with the different syntax than I have).
20:54:39 <esowiki> [[Streetcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71956&oldid=71947 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+838) /* Streets */
20:57:55 <esowiki> [[Streetcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71957&oldid=71956 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+169) /* Infinite loop */
20:58:27 <esowiki> [[Streetcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71958&oldid=71957 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+60) /* Streets */
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21:12:04 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71959&oldid=71946 * Zax2002 * (+109) /* Introductions */
21:14:04 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71960&oldid=71959 * Zax2002 * (+60) /* Introductions */
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21:42:39 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71961&oldid=71650 * Zax2002 * (+123) /* Normal implementations */
21:58:11 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71962&oldid=71892 * Emerald * (+315) Added operations
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23:47:23 <zzo38> I made a graph of the temperature and system load average, although it is still recording (I set it to record for 24 hours).
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02:27:02 <esowiki> [[User:Tetratrary/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71964&oldid=71963 * Tetratrary * (-45) /* Operations */
02:28:35 <esowiki> [[User:Tetratrary/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71965&oldid=71964 * Tetratrary * (+0) /* Example Programs */
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02:33:29 <esowiki> [[User:Tetratrary/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71966&oldid=71965 * Tetratrary * (+3) /* Example programs */
02:39:02 <esowiki> [[User:Tetratrary/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71967&oldid=71966 * Tetratrary * (+0) /* Operations */
03:16:52 <zzo38> Some of my new rules for Magic: the Gathering (to use with my custom cards) include generalized haunt and mutate, and also runebanding.
03:25:29 <zzo38> Yes. Well, with other runebanding runes, that is.
03:35:26 <zzo38> Now "haunt" can specify what object it haunts, and "mutate" can specify what permanent it mutates (it still needs to have the same owner as the spell, though).
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03:52:57 <zzo38> See if you make up a card using any of these things.
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04:15:49 <Antebrationist> orbitaldecay? I was reading the logs for esowar, and it seems very interesting. Is it only 1d?
04:18:16 <int-e> huh, in C++, is std::bind(std::uniform_int_distribution<int>{0,1}, rng); expected to take a copy of the rng? *mumble*
04:21:49 <shachaf> You mean instead of a pointer?
04:21:57 <shachaf> I guess it's impossible to know with these C++ things.
04:22:23 <shachaf> It is probably clearer to write it with a lambda.
04:27:27 <shachaf> Apparently "the answer" is to use std::ref.
04:28:17 <shachaf> https://godbolt.org/z/FFkBtD
04:29:07 <shachaf> A better answer is surely to scrap std::bind.
04:31:43 <shachaf> [&rng]() { return std::uniform_int_distribution<int>{0,1}(rng); } is probably clearer?
04:32:07 <shachaf> What a maze of std::little::passages, all different, it is to figure out what's going on here.
04:33:01 <shachaf> You can also just write [&]() { ... }
04:33:02 <int-e> Yeah I did manage to write the lambda. :)
04:33:25 <int-e> I'm more annoyed that I've been doing this wrong, blissfully unaware of the copy.
04:33:33 <shachaf> OK, I just felt like I should argue for the more reasonable thing a little more after mentioning the ridiculous thing.
04:34:33 <int-e> Well, it's the quicker fix :P
04:34:43 <int-e> (using std::ref that is.)
04:35:08 <shachaf> Maybe if you never ever have to understand what's going on with that code.
04:35:17 <shachaf> Man, C++ is so ridiculous.
04:35:39 <pikhq> I've said it before, and I'll say it many more times. It's one of my favorite esolangs.
04:35:56 <zzo38> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOOP_%28programming_language%29 This is the same idea I thought of the day before, but I used a different syntax. Set to zero is the name and a equal sign, increment is the name and a plus sign, loop is the name and then a left bracket and then the commands and then the right bracket, commands are separated by spaces.
04:35:58 <shachaf> I agree on the eso, but why favorite?
04:36:27 <int-e> shachaf: I finally noticed because I wanted to run several instances of my program, providing seeds on the command line (for reproducibility)... and saw that the seed had no effect. bummer.
04:36:50 <pikhq> idk, there's something amazing about this farce that people keep pretending that it's a Real Serious Language™ when it's about as well-designed as fucking MUMPS
04:37:02 <int-e> (out of laziness, the rng is a global variable, and I re-seeded it with the program argument)
04:37:25 <shachaf> I'm sure no harm can come of accidentally copying a random number generator.
04:37:44 <int-e> This is for http://www.research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/challenges/May2020.html ... not production code by any standard.
04:38:12 <zzo38> Maybe; I don't know. Some people use C++, I use C. I also think many features of C++ are not so well designed, and had a different idea to do some of its similar things differently in C, but different and without any extra runtime libraries needed.
04:38:46 <int-e> shachaf: I mean who wouldn't want this: http://paste.debian.net/1145790/
04:39:25 <int-e> huh, that's missing two lines, #include <functional> and #include <iostream>
04:41:21 <zzo38> My idea was that you cannot overload the assignment operator, but you can overload the assignment through pointer operator. I don't know if overloading the assignment through pointer operator is possible in C++; do you know?
04:45:27 <shachaf> I doubt that can have a different interpretation from the separate meanings of * and =
04:45:57 <shachaf> zzo38: My idea (which is also the way ALGOL 68 and BLISS work) is that there are no mutable variables, only pointers.
04:46:25 <shachaf> And instead of a mutable variable you have an immutable pointer to a mutable memory cell.
04:46:46 <shachaf> So you might have to explicitly dereference: x = $x + 1
04:47:12 <shachaf> The assignment operator = takes two arguments, a reference and a value. The derefernece operator $ takes a reference and returns a value.
04:47:16 <zzo38> Yes, I think that way is good too, I like that too
04:47:36 <zzo38> I answered that question already
04:47:49 <shachaf> I'm worried that this will make code too verbose.
04:48:10 <shachaf> With all the extra dereferences you don't need to write in a typical language.
04:49:40 <zzo38> I think it is OK; some other programming languages already work similarly and it works OK, including Forth.
04:50:37 <shachaf> Say you have the equivalent of "T *array;" in C.
04:51:01 <shachaf> The C code "array[i]" would turn into "$array[$i]", I suppose.
04:51:20 <shachaf> Or "$($array + $i)". Does the [] have an implicit $?
04:52:03 <shachaf> In C a[i] is an lvalue, so really the direct corresponding thing here is just +.
04:52:21 <shachaf> $($a[$i]) is just ridiculous, though.
04:52:48 <shachaf> It all seem kind of noisy.
04:53:02 <shachaf> Another thing you can do is implicitly figure out when things are dereferenced, like ALGOL 68 does.
04:53:31 <shachaf> But then I'm worried that things are ambiuous, for example in the situation "int f(int *x);" vs. "int g(int x);" being called the same way.
04:53:38 <zzo38> I think is best then to don't have a [] notation
04:54:11 <shachaf> Of course [] isn't the only problem, it's just one thing.
04:54:15 <zzo38> You can use + instead
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05:41:54 <int-e> Yay, I found an application for sortin arrays in http://www.research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/challenges/May2020.html :-)
05:42:23 <int-e> hello brain... I meant sorting networks
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06:24:01 <ais523> shachaf: last time I implemented something that used this, arrays themselves were generally immutable (only their elements were mutable)
06:24:24 <ais523> so normally you wouldn't be explicitly dereferencing an array
06:24:49 <ais523> actually, I implemented arrays as functions that returned references, and postfix () had higher precedence than $
06:25:17 <ais523> so array[i] turns into $array[$i] which parses as $(array[$i])
06:26:00 <ais523> * array[$i] turns into $array($i) which parses as $(array($i))
06:26:19 <ais523> your examples look weird to me, though, because the language in question used $ for dereference but := for assignment
06:26:43 <ais523> (= was used to define the value of an immutable thing as it came into scope)
06:29:57 <shachaf> ais523: Yes, I was thinking of that.
06:30:25 <shachaf> I think there's also the odd thing that when you switch something from immutable to mutable, you have to go through all the use sites and modify them.
06:30:42 <shachaf> It make some sense, but when you compare it to a C program it's pretty awkward.
06:31:26 <shachaf> Even if arrays are immutable, there are probably other things with similar problems.
06:32:38 <shachaf> But maybe an array that can be reassigned is a weird enough thing that $($arr)[$i] is fine.
06:32:57 <shachaf> What was the language in question?
06:34:07 <shachaf> I'm pretty curious how awkward this works out to be in practice.
06:34:52 <shachaf> Also, if you had structs, did e.g. struct dereference have a meaning for both references to structs and structs?
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07:32:40 <int-e> So... 100M generations per second on a single core. Yum :)
07:37:29 <int-e> (For the May Ponder This challenge, and with the fixed rule string from that challenge.)
07:56:30 <shachaf> I wonder whether you can speed up a finite torus board with hashlife.
07:59:54 <int-e> I mean, hashlife will kick in when you have a cycle... but for this problem, you're done at that point.
08:00:40 <int-e> And then there's memory usage... nah, I only see reasons why it probably doesn't work.
08:19:18 <shachaf> It sounds that way. But maybe there's some trick.
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12:43:59 <HackEso> ls: cannot access 's/work/help/': No such file or directory
12:44:07 <HackEso> ls: cannot access 's/work/': No such file or directory
12:44:10 <HackEso> ls: cannot access 's/work': No such file or directory
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12:47:47 <fizzie> (I guess someone misinterpreted int-e's s/work/help/ comment as a pathname?)
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16:30:56 <int-e> fizzie: hah, cute.
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16:44:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * NichtElias * New user account
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17:48:34 <esowiki> [[Esowar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71970&oldid=71955 * Orby * (+340) /* Example base */
18:04:08 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/img_1D/sensorrec.png Now do you believe me?
18:04:49 <zzo38> (Note: Due to the way the data is recorded, it won't record the system load as zero even when it is zero.)
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18:37:07 <ais523> <shachaf> What was the language in question? ← Verity; it isn't very well known
18:37:24 <ais523> it didn't/doesn't have structs, so that issue hasn't come up yet
18:38:19 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71971&oldid=43586 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) /* Computational class */ total
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20:11:00 <zzo38> The temperature of my computer is currently reported as 35.5 Celsius.
20:11:14 <zzo38> (That is the CPU temperature)
20:23:12 <shachaf> ais523: Oh, but I think you've mentioned it before.
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20:23:22 <shachaf> BLISS also doesn't have structs.
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21:48:34 <zzo38> Do you need the C program and PostScript program I wrote for these temperature recording and plotting?
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21:57:47 <zzo38> Do some computer games use compression formats that will sometimes fail for unsolvable levels?
22:00:25 <zzo38> Well, I have done that with a sokoban game once; its compression algorithm sometimes fails for unsolvable levels (such as levels with cornered boxes, unreachable areas, etc)
22:01:18 <zzo38> (Not because it checks for such things, but because the compressed format is incapable of representing some of those features.)
22:02:46 <zzo38> Actually, I think this is also true of Gruniozerca 3. The way that the compression works requires that the solution is recorded too, apparently.
22:23:51 <esowiki> [[Esowar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71972&oldid=71970 * Orby * (+161) Tie condition
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00:55:37 <imode> working on a token-based rewriting language that has some vague resemblance to concatenative languages.
00:55:59 <imode> with native support for lists, anything is possible.
00:57:51 <imode> https://hatebin.com/ssyfkqowua
01:00:19 <imode> while loops are proving tricky with the "infix" syntax.
01:01:15 <imode> if/else was also tricky. it assumes a default evaluation order of right to left. writing it to be direction agnostic is kind of the next goal.
01:03:02 <imode> if rdrop is evaluated before rswap, for example, you'll end up swapping two unrelated values on the right-hand side, and that'll be messy if anything else is beyond that context.
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03:25:10 <moony> imode: that language looks fun
03:25:22 <moony> and frankly I like the syntax, so I think i'm going to steal it for my own use
03:27:30 <moony> for less esoteric purposes, mind you
03:45:53 <int-e> that vaguely reminds me of that one time I tried TCL.
03:46:05 <int-e> (because of the many square brackets)
03:48:53 <zzo38> Have you tried to program in PostScript one time, though? (Apparently, even the inventor of INTERCAL uses PostScript.)
03:50:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think you read the M:tG comprule updates. If I cast a Migratory Greathorn and choose to mutate an opponent's creature with it, then who controls the triggered ability triggered from the Greathorn?
03:52:45 <zzo38> The spell has to have the same owner as the creature you choose to mutate, I think. So unless the opponent's creature is owned by the same player as the spell (e.g. because your opponent took control of your creature), you can't cast that spell like that.
03:53:30 <zzo38> However, to answer your question, let's see the Migratory Greathorn card, first.
03:56:00 <zzo38> OK, rule 702.139d merely says "An ability that triggers whenever a creature mutates triggers when a spell merges with a creature as a result of a resolving mutating creature spell." I think it triggers after it is on the battlefield, so your opponent controls that ability, but you get to decide to put it on the top or bottom.
03:56:25 <zzo38> (If someone knows to the contrary, you can tell me, but I think it works like how I mentioned.)
04:02:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: yeah, there's a requirement that the parts of the mutated creature has to have the same owner, so this doesn't come up too often, but there are lots of effects to take control of a creature
04:03:08 <zzo38> I realized something, which is that if you are using my "generalized mutate" rule but only using official cards (maybe because it is a kind of Constructed game with both custom and official cards, but neither player decided to use any custom cards), nevertheless it has an effect on the game, because it is now possible to use Artificial Evolution to prevent a creature from mutating.
04:04:18 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes. I wrote what is the best I can tell from reading the rules.
04:04:22 <b_jonas> heck, it's not even quite clear to me from the rules who will control the merged creature after you mutate, and whether the order of the cards depends for that
04:05:23 <zzo38> I believe it will have the same controller as the original, because who controls a permanent is a continuous property, and continuous effects continue to apply.
04:09:42 <zzo38> (Rule 721.2c specifically says that continuous effects continue to apply.)
04:10:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know, there might not be a continuous effect if the original creature is a card that was put otb under the opponent's control, such as with Gruesome Encore.
04:11:34 <zzo38> I think that since it is a continuous property, it is still a continuous effect, although not a static effect.
04:12:04 <zzo38> Although, I am unsure.
04:13:28 <b_jonas> yeah, 721.2c says that the merged object is the same object as the permanent that already existed
04:14:22 <zzo38> However, I think that if (hypothetically) some static ability says "you control all blue permanents", and the mutation changes it to not blue, then since the mutation is a layer 1 effect and control is a layer 2 effect, this means that control effect will no longer apply (and Thoughtlace won't allow you to take it back, since that is a layer 5 effect).
04:15:26 <b_jonas> "you control all blue permanents" is a very unlikely effect, but sure
04:16:03 <zzo38> Yes, it is unlikely, but I was giving a hypothetical example.
04:18:21 <b_jonas> I should ask efnet/#mtgrules probably
04:19:00 <zzo38> Yes, perhaps they know better than I do.
04:19:13 <b_jonas> that or the scryfall web forum
04:19:36 <b_jonas> oh, but I should re-read the release notes first
04:20:04 <zzo38> Yes, maybe they answered the question for you
04:28:31 <zzo38> Do you like my "Master Shuffler" and "Malaclypse the Younger" Un-cards?
04:29:55 <b_jonas> I don't know, I haven't looked at your cards lately, especially not your un-cards
04:30:48 <zzo38> Master Shuffler shuffles players, planeswalkers, mana pools, your hand, planar decks, scheme decks, time stamps, and the layer system.
04:31:03 <zzo38> Malaclypse the Younger makes all intervening if clauses true.
04:36:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: efnet/#magicjudges-rules tells me that the opponent keeps control of the permanent when it merges with a mutate card
04:37:17 <b_jonas> and that they'll also control the "whenever this creature mutates" ability
04:37:43 <b_jonas> so if an opponent owns my treefolk, I can mutate it with a Greathorn and they'll have to shuffle
04:38:50 <zzo38> Yes, that is what I thought.
04:39:07 <zzo38> Now I am more certain of it, because they said the same thing.
04:46:29 <imode> moony: feel free to steal lol.
04:46:57 <imode> it's an inconvenient little language because you don't have a separation between code and data.
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05:35:09 <Antebrationist> What commands are required to make a language with two stacks TC?
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05:46:43 <zzo38> I think it depends on the other stuff in the programming language
05:48:07 <Antebrationist> Okay. Let's say we have operands to increment and decrement both stacks, move the top item from each stack to the top of the other one, and some kind of control flow based on the value in each stack.
05:48:27 <Antebrationist> This is just a thought experiment of course, I'm not going to actually turn it into a language.
05:49:41 <zzo38> Yes, that can be similar to brainfuck, I think.
05:50:34 <zzo38> You could consider having a tape where one stack is everything on the left of the tape and other stack is everything on the right of the tape, I think.
05:50:44 <Antebrationist> I can see <> being equivalent to the moving between stacks and the increment/decrement being equivalent, but I don't really get the whole control flow part.
05:53:22 <zzo38> Depends how you define it, I suppose.
05:53:44 <Antebrationist> Okay. This thought experiment isn't very fleshed out yet.
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05:54:39 <Antebrationist45> Let's just say that depending on whether the sum of the values at the top of the stacks is even or odd, it does different stuff.
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06:00:53 <zzo38> Did you post the programming language you invented before, on the esolang wiki yet?
06:01:25 <Antebrationist45> Besides, there are already 4 major Befunge copies, and this is fairly similar.
06:02:16 <Antebrationist45> And the whole "you can have as many pointers as you like" thing just annoyed me. It seems... inelegant?
06:02:17 <zzo38> I like it, though.
06:02:58 <Antebrationist45> Do you? I may post it then. I have an article in the works for it, although I'm not sure whether I should be like all of those people who spampost BF deriatives.
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06:18:04 <Antebrationist> Alright, this thought experiment might become a language now.
06:30:55 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * FSHelix * uploaded "[[File:1 Number of operations in divmod.jpeg]]"
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12:29:31 <esowiki> [[TinyBF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71980&oldid=71013 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+70) /* External resources */
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12:49:25 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71982&oldid=71735 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11)
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13:23:39 <arseniiv> oh! have someone read something comprehensive about error recovery in parsers? I think I have almost no idea which approaches are out there and which ones are deemed more useful
14:06:06 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71984&oldid=71961 * Zax2002 * (+0) /* Normal implementations */
14:07:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71985&oldid=71960 * Zax2002 * (+0) /* Introductions */
14:07:49 <esowiki> [[Bout]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71986 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1233) Created page with "'''Bout''' is an assembly-like esolang created by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Syntax== Bout programs consist of lines with opcodes followed by any arguments they might..."
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14:35:21 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71988&oldid=71929 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* B */
14:35:40 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71989&oldid=71981 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+37) /* Languages */
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14:49:41 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I think the best way to have good error recovery is to design the syntax of your language well. For example, in typical python code, if you miscount parenthesis and forget to close one, you usually get a confused error message where the parser thinks that the next line is a continuation of your statement. but if you write your program to put a semicolon at the end of every simple statement,
14:49:47 <b_jonas> which python allows, then you get good error messages, because the parser knows that semicolons (unlike line breaks) can only appear between statements, not inside parenthesis.
14:50:51 <arseniiv> b_jonas: wait, Python allows semicolons?? Maybe that’s JS?
14:51:44 <b_jonas> if you design your language to have tokens that only appear between statements and you can't nest statements inside expressions, then you can recover from unbalanced expressions. similarly if you use a different token to end a function definition than to end the body of a conditional, then even if you miscount your braces inside the function, the parser will know where the function definition ends and
14:51:50 <b_jonas> can recover to parse the next function.
14:52:26 <b_jonas> and eg. in C, double-quoted string literals can't have line break in the end, so if you forget a double quote, the lexer can recover in the next line.
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14:52:45 <b_jonas> sadly most programming languages these days aren't designed to match these principles.
14:53:24 <b_jonas> it's sort of understandable, because it goes against letting you write flexible and brief code where only a few kinds of braces and semicolons are available so many punctuation are precious and have several overloaded meanings
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14:54:28 <arseniiv> oh, indeed Python understands semicolons. Shame I’ve read a bit of its grammar and didn’t notice they are allowed as separators :|
14:55:12 <b_jonas> hmm, I just realized. in Consumer Society, every program can trivially be written such that square brackets are nested to at most 2 depth. I can add a switch to the interpreter where it absolutely refuses square brackets nested to more than 2 depth, that way it can find missing closing square brackets and recover from them.
14:55:58 <b_jonas> that won't help with missing a curly brace, but it's still useful to some extent.
14:56:24 <b_jonas> but Consumer Society is an esolang that's not very suitable to finding errors in compile time in first place, so even that is something.
14:57:05 <b_jonas> if you want your compiler to find errors, you'd use a programming language with a type system and a compiler, not an esolang like Consumer Society.
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15:08:10 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71990&oldid=69154 * DmilkaSTD * (+27)
15:11:27 <arseniiv> b_jonas: funny that I consider writing a parser for an esolang with a touch of typing via abstract types: the runtime has actually only one data type and all operations work on it nicely, but you’d be able to add simple function contracts like “this function returns N”, “if this function takes N, it returns N”, and then these would be enforced by the compiler in all the code except the part where these functions are defined
15:12:26 <arseniiv> I don’t know if this approach is called abstract types but I thought this is the closest match
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15:12:45 <esowiki> [[AT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71991&oldid=65124 * DmilkaSTD * (+17)
15:27:05 <esowiki> [[Asvi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71992 * DmilkaSTD * (+5) Created page with "::Wip"
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18:11:52 <zzo38> Automatic semicolon insertion is I think one o the bad features of JavaScript.
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18:19:08 <zzo38> A bad feature of PostScript is the inability to use automatic allocation with the readline operator.
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18:53:50 <myname> there are js coding guidelines that suggest omiting the semicolon wherever possible and only set it at the start of a line when necessary
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18:54:18 <myname> which is a horrible recommendation imho since it will force you to enter/remove semicilons if you move code around
18:55:20 <zzo38> I agree, and I always add the semicolons when writing a program in JavaScript.
18:56:46 <zzo38> Do you mean why I, myname, what myname mentioned, or all of these?
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19:25:40 <esowiki> [[Seltzer Spigot]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72018 * InfiniteDonuts * (+850) Created page with "'''Seltzer Spigot''' is a purely functional esolang designed by [[User:InfiniteDonuts]]. It is not yet complete. Its philosophy is not just minimalism, as in some esolangs. R..."
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19:28:33 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72019&oldid=71962 * Emerald * (+89) Better storage
19:28:55 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72020&oldid=72019 * Emerald * (-1)
19:29:39 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72021&oldid=71988 * Emerald * (+58) Added own language
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20:21:45 <esowiki> [[2001: An Esolang Odyssey]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72025&oldid=71891 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Instructions */
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20:36:35 <esowiki> [[DotSlash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72026&oldid=72023 * InfiniteDonuts * (+1327)
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21:09:57 <esowiki> [[Esowar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72027&oldid=71972 * Orby * (+67)
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21:44:14 <b_jonas> question. how the heck do Game Boy games implement animated tiles? from what I read about the graphics chip, that isn't supposed to be possible without a lot of CPU use
21:44:37 <b_jonas> yet a lot of game boy games have animated water or other animated tiles, so I'm probably missing something obvious
21:45:52 <b_jonas> it can't be palette cycling because there are only one and a half tile layers and only one palette per tile layer
21:46:47 <b_jonas> you'd have to either very quickly find all animated tiles in the tilemap memory and modify them, or quickly rewrite the bitmap of a few tiles stored in the tileset memory, every frame
21:47:03 <b_jonas> or emulate them with sprites, which also seems impossible with how much these are used.
21:50:01 <b_jonas> I guess they're probably rewriting the bitmaps in the tileset memory every frame, and design the levels so that there's very few tiles that they have to update
21:50:16 <b_jonas> but it still seems unrealistic
21:50:25 <b_jonas> they can apparently animate a lot
21:51:40 <imode> we talking original gameboy?
21:54:22 <b_jonas> 100 kilometers south of Berlin? so that's close to Dresden probably
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21:55:23 <b_jonas> wrnog channel for that last one
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22:37:06 <zzo38> Does it have pattern table bank switching like NES/Famicom does? I am unsure (I probably read it once but now I forget)
22:39:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't remember the details
22:40:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: is pattern table bank switching when you switch the entire layer between two pattern tables of 256 tiles each?
22:40:26 <b_jonas> that's a good idea, that might be what's happening
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22:41:39 <b_jonas> oops. falling into the first shallow sap hole in tree 2
22:41:52 <b_jonas> sorry, wrong channel again,
22:41:57 <b_jonas> chatting in multiple channels is confusing
22:48:48 <zzo38> Yes, that is what I mean
22:53:27 <pikhq> What's hard for them to do with that? Can't you just modify the background map, and simply change which tileset entries get used for certain tiles?
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22:53:44 <pikhq> Maybe I'm missing something, but that's just in video RAM and doesn't need much CPU to do?
22:54:46 <imode> yeah iirc there's no limit to you altering PPU memory.
22:55:10 <b_jonas> pikhq; it's in the video RAM, but the CPU doesn't get that much time between frames, it's only like 1 megahertz speed with a Z80-like CPU, and it wants to do all sorts of other computations between frames
22:55:45 <b_jonas> and each tile pattern is 32 bytes long, and you usually have to update several tiles
22:56:50 <imode> I don't believe altering the bg tile table takes that much CPU.
22:56:57 <pikhq> Erm, I wasn't saying updating the tile pattern. I was saying update the _used tile in the background map_
22:57:08 <pikhq> Which is one byte per tile.
22:57:35 <b_jonas> pikhq: that's even harder, because you have to find which tiles to update there
22:57:48 <b_jonas> the same water tiles or muncher tiles usually appear a lot of times
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22:58:29 <imode> animated water usually is done in pretty short order.
22:58:47 <b_jonas> and the Game Boy only has 8x8 tiles, just like the NES, so there are a lot of tiles to look up
22:58:54 <b_jonas> 8x8 pixel sized tiles that is
22:59:00 <b_jonas> admittedly it has a smaller screen than the NES
22:59:06 <ais523> the NES CPU has a DMA to make it possible to update the sprite table quickly enough during vblank
22:59:21 <ais523> but it normally has plenty of time to update backgrounds just via regular CPU instructions
22:59:27 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, I think the GB CPU accesses the PPU memory directly too
22:59:39 <imode> the GB has DMA as well.
22:59:49 <ais523> the PPU on the NES isn't accessed directly, rather there's a specialised memcpy instruction on the CPU for it
23:00:03 <ais523> that puts it in a mode which memcpies one byte per cycle into the PPU sprite memory
23:00:16 <b_jonas> I mean its tile and pattern memory, not the registers. accessing the registers is more complicated.
23:00:19 <ais523> (you can't write a memcpy that runs that fast on a 6502 normally)
23:00:42 <b_jonas> memcopies one byte per cycle? yes, that's impossible on a normal 6502
23:00:53 <imode> https://gbdev.gg8.se/wiki/articles/Video_Display#LCD_OAM_DMA_Transfers
23:01:14 <ais523> right, I can see why it was invented
23:01:32 <ais523> it shouldn't be too hard to add a few extra circuits to make that fast a memcpy possible using the normal on-chip ALU and read and write architecture
23:01:36 <b_jonas> cool. does the Game Boy has such a feature too?
23:01:46 <zzo38> It isn't a special instruction on the CPU, but rather a function of the APU to implement sprite DMA on NES. (However, the CPU and APU are the same physical chip)
23:01:49 <ais523> but, there's clearly no way to do it under software control so you'd need extra hardware to implement it
23:02:52 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but the problem is that it has to be in the CPU, because those CPUs and PPUs access the memory in a synchronized way, it'd be hard to just do it asynhroniously from a separate device, and it wasn't easy to modify a CPU in such a way back then
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23:03:41 <ais523> huh, the Game Boy version is rather more advanced than the NES version
23:03:53 <b_jonas> sure, it's like 5 years more advanced
23:04:04 <ais523> apparently the CPU functions normally during the DMA, except that some of the memory buses are tied up
23:04:14 <b_jonas> and has a Z80-based chip with an address space larger than 16 bytes
23:04:16 <zzo38> b_jonas: The APU is the audio processing unit, although it also includes the OAM DMA and the game controller inputs.
23:04:21 <b_jonas> address space larger than 16 bits
23:04:26 <ais523> so you can actually run code, just you need to run it from somewhere that isn't busy with the DMA
23:05:00 <pikhq> Hmm, that's rather handy.
23:05:02 <ais523> in practice the NES never ran out of address space anyway, in most configurations it has tons more address space than physical memory
23:05:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: but isn't the APU completely separate from the CPU and PPU and not even running from the same clock speed or something? or is that on a different console?
23:05:43 <ais523> although I think it needs to bank-switch on later chips because the address space is split up with certain parts being for certain purposes
23:05:46 <b_jonas> er what? doesn't the NES only have 16 bits of address space only?
23:05:50 <ais523> and you can run out of address space in a particular part
23:05:59 <zzo38> b_jonas: No, it uses the same clock speed.
23:06:00 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, but that's 64 KiB which is more than most NES games use
23:06:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: same clock speed, but not synchronized
23:06:31 <b_jonas> ais523: oh right, it's the SNES and Game Boy that has game cartridges up to 8 megabyte
23:06:41 <b_jonas> though 64 kilobytes still sounds pretty small for the NES
23:06:46 <ais523> with most games, quite a lot of that 64 KiB is either mirror ROM / mirror RAM (i.e. two addresses for the same byte in memory), or else open bus
23:06:46 <b_jonas> don't some NES games have more ROM than that?
23:07:02 <ais523> the games with more data stored normally use bank switching
23:07:05 <zzo38> Yes, it uses bank switching in the cartridge.
23:07:09 <b_jonas> yes, exactly, bank switching
23:07:14 <ais523> i.e. they have multiple different ROMs in the cartridge
23:07:18 <b_jonas> which means that they have ran out of address space, just solved it in a reasonable manner
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23:07:24 <ais523> that's most important for background and sprite tables, which have a very small maximum size
23:08:29 <b_jonas> ais523: why? does the NES not have built-in video memory, unlike the GB?
23:08:52 <b_jonas> oh right, in the NES it's all in the same bus I think
23:09:13 <b_jonas> so it's usually in the ROM or something
23:09:20 <ais523> b_jonas: it's complicated, there's video RAM for choosing where the sprites are on screen, and where the backgrounds are on screen
23:09:24 <b_jonas> whereas the GB has dedicated video memory that you have to write I think
23:09:35 <ais523> but the pixels that make up a particular sprite, or particular background, are read directly from the cartridge and normally assumed to be in ROM
23:09:43 <ais523> (of course there's nothing stopping the cartridge putting a RAM there instead)
23:09:59 <ais523> and the address space of that is really small
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23:10:10 <zzo38> The NES does have built-in video memory, although it is not normally used for pattern tables (it is normally used for name tables instead).
23:10:19 <ais523> so it uses bank-switching more commonly than other parts of memory
23:10:20 <pikhq> (and a few games that do special, clever tricks will do exactly that)
23:10:37 <zzo38> (Although there is a signal in the cartridge to specify whether to use the internal video memory (CIRAM) or that in the cartridge.)
23:10:59 <b_jonas> hmm, it's possible that I'm misunderstanding something and the GB does this too
23:11:36 <b_jonas> because it only has 8 kilobytes of video memory, which is enough for scrolling the maps, with two bytes per 8x8 block on a 160x130 pixel or something screen, two layers, but way too little for pattern memory
23:11:57 <b_jonas> so it probably just addresses pattern memory that's usually bank switched in directly from the cart too
23:12:09 <ais523> zzo38: IIRC, the NES's graphics chip implements a virtual screen that's 512×512, but its internal video memory only has enough space for half that
23:12:27 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that is correct.
23:12:33 <ais523> so the cartridge needs to decide whether to make it 512×256, 256×512, or add additional memory of its own to get the full size
23:12:47 <zzo38> (Well, kind of. Part of each name table is used for attributes instead.)
23:13:25 <zzo38> Attributes are not stored with each cell, but rather each byte in the attribute area stores the attributes for four 2x2 blocks of cells.
23:13:37 <b_jonas> yes, on the NES you can choose a palette for each 16x16 pixel block
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23:13:42 <b_jonas> but the original Game Boy doesn't have that
23:13:56 <b_jonas> you can only choose the palette per layer and per sprite (or per two sprites or something, I don't recall)
23:14:17 <b_jonas> but that's because it can only display four physical colors on the LCD
23:14:27 <b_jonas> whereas the NES can display much more colors
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23:15:47 <b_jonas> mind you, I think it's unfair to call that "attribute memory", it's just palette memory, the tile map itself has per-tile attributes in it
23:16:09 <orbitaldecay> Antebrationist: forder.cc/esowar if you're interested there's a tourney server now
23:17:36 <b_jonas> also having tilemap first, and attribute memory in more expensive later versions is a pretty popular solution, it's happened for at least three computers: the game boy (if you upgrade to game boy color), the VT100-like terminals (where you just plug in additional RAM), and the Commodore home computers
23:17:54 <b_jonas> it's a good way to make a newer video chip that is compatible with older modes
23:18:12 <b_jonas> and software that is compatible with older non-color hardware without needing too much extra data
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00:13:55 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72028&oldid=72020 * Emerald * (+46) Clarified
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00:20:34 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72029&oldid=72028 * Emerald * (+23) Fixed programs
00:23:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72030 * Emerald * (+147) Made page and self insult
00:35:36 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72031&oldid=71811 * Emerald * (+11)
00:35:47 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72032&oldid=72031 * Emerald * (+2) /* Languages I made: */
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00:39:39 <Emerald> Has anyone made a language, only for it to be lost to the depths of the wiki?
00:41:01 <zzo38> Probably. I made some that currently do not have a name, and are my user subpages, but would be moved to the main name space once they have a proper name.
00:41:56 <Emerald> I just feel like my language is kinda useless.
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00:47:39 <Emerald> Like has anyone heard of “Numobin”?
00:47:59 <Emerald> I only know it, because I just need an example.
00:50:51 <Emerald> I just feel like the random page button isn’t much.
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00:52:26 <int-e> Emerald: there's a large number of languages that ...
00:52:39 <int-e> ... are not worth discussion.
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01:12:06 <zzo38> Yes, although see "User:Zzo38/Untitled_2" and "User:Zzo38/Untitled_3", which I think are not accessed by the random page function (and are not in the language list either; I can add it once I make up the name for it).
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01:27:07 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72033&oldid=72029 * Emerald * (-2) Fixed cat and made more compact
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01:41:33 <Antebrationist> orbitaldecay, what exactly does the + symbol do in esowar? Does it choose a random symbol from the available symbols, or does it increment the symbol, then make it modulo 7?
01:42:02 <int-e> Antebrationist: the latter
01:43:32 <int-e> "The ] symbol becomes r."
01:43:55 <int-e> (That quote is from the wiki page.)
01:45:29 <Antebrationist> I wonder what would happen if I made a bot to sweep right, incrementing everything by one.
01:46:39 <Antebrationist> It'd probably have about a fifty-fifty chance of victory.
01:51:31 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72034&oldid=72033 * Emerald * (+79) Added truth machine
01:58:41 <Antebrationist> Orbitaldecay, how many warriors are we allowed to submit?
01:59:02 <orbitaldecay> Antebrationist: feel free to add any creations to the wiki page too. No limit.
01:59:24 <Antebrationist> Okay... this will be interesting, as I am about to submit my first one.
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02:16:53 <Antebrationist> orbitaldecay, do we need a + at the start, so that the r our program starts on becomes a d?
02:17:14 <Antebrationist> and so loops can happen. For example, the program [>+] does nothing, right?
02:18:45 <int-e> it depends on where your agent starts
02:19:07 <orbitaldecay> I recommend you play with the interpretter to test ideas. The only way to guarantee a cell is not r is [+] followed by a certain number of +
02:19:09 <Antebrationist> Let's say that it starts on an r, since that is overwhelmingly more likely than the reverse.
02:19:13 <int-e> (Hmm, I forgot whether it can be placed on top of a program.)
02:19:55 <orbitaldecay> The robot can start on a program, butprobably won't
02:20:04 <int-e> Antebrationist: you can do +[>+] to get the look started with higher probability.
02:20:56 <int-e> or do things like [[>+]+]+[[>+]+]
02:21:40 <int-e> it just tries harder to keep going
02:22:49 <int-e> basically, when a loop is skipped or exited, it does another increment and tries again.
02:23:16 <int-e> oh that can be simplified slightly: [>+]+[[>+]+]
02:24:18 <Antebrationist> Does the first [>+] ever terminate, or does it just plough forwards until it reaches an r?
02:24:27 <int-e> (And then there's loop unrolling to move a bit faster. stuff like [>+>+>+>+]. Oh well.)
02:24:42 <int-e> ...if you incrment a ] then the result is r...
02:26:15 <Antebrationist> I might try and make a program that flies right until it hits a ], then moves left and destroys everything it can find until it hits an r.
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02:45:17 <imode> so the frustrating points of this language that I'm writing are that the source code itself is the eventual, actual interpreted code.
02:45:59 <imode> an attempt at a map pattern... `define [map] [ldup rshift lswap rshift pop rshift rflatten append lswap map]`
02:46:21 <imode> if I had separation between the two, that'd probably be more entertaining and/or useful.
02:49:40 <Antebrationist> I don't believe it. Slightlyfastersweeper got a score of 5 wins, 1 loss and no ties.
02:54:12 <Antebrationist> orbitaldecay, is there a way that you could remove baseDetector from the esowar? it's lost all of its matches.
02:55:58 <Antebrationist> Although, it is an interesting variable to have a bot like baseDetector. It's only purpose is to break other stuff.
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03:06:57 <orbitaldecay> Antebrationist: I can remove bots, but don't worry too much about it
03:07:52 <Antebrationist> Okay. I've found the bug in BaseDetector, but I'll refrain from submitting any more bots.
03:10:05 <orbitaldecay> Don't worry about submitting too many. Just the two of us for now.
03:10:42 <orbitaldecay> I've got some ideas I'm going to work on tomorrow
03:12:55 <Antebrationist> I could optimise it further, but it's just a proof of concept at this point. The 10,000 character limit puts an upper limit on all fasterSweeper class bots.
03:14:17 <Antebrationist> [+]+[ is 5 bytes at the start, and ] is 1 at the end. This leaves us with room for 1998 repeats of >[+]+.
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03:27:48 <Antebrationist> I guess it just randomly, occasionally, purely by chance, finds the opponent's base and wipes it out.
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03:57:24 <Antebrationist> orbitaldecay, could you please remove wiper, griefer and baseDetector from the game? they are glitchy, and I don't think they're needed anymore
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04:25:55 <zzo38> Can a esolang be made from a hydra game? It must terminate, but this cannot be proven by Peano arithmetic.
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05:16:35 <Antebrationist> Um, yes please. It's a bit buggy, and I'll resubmit it later.
05:17:10 <Antebrationist> So we're just going back to good ol' sweeper, null and smart sweeper I guess.
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06:03:12 <zzo38> Now I wrote this: http://sprunge.us/0sQzzh
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06:39:20 <Antebrationist> Added suicideBot, a bot that attempts to make the other user suicide on their own code.
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07:07:25 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72035&oldid=71938 * Salpynx * (+5465) correcting myself on end-of-strings and + Finite-state transducers are great!
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08:08:42 <salpynx> orbitaldecay: I've convinced myself that ε can't be used to represent an end-of-string like I was trying for. I've reformulated my machine idea using your suggested α + ω notation, but I don't really have an argument for what α and ω are in reality.
08:10:04 <int-e> . o O ( losing faith )
08:10:08 <salpynx> int-e: reading up on and using finite-state transducers to model simple translation ideas was really helpful. thanks!
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08:12:26 <int-e> orbitaldecay: just an idea: submitting a bot could provide people with a key that can be used to remove (or possibly update) it?
08:15:01 <int-e> salpynx: faith was just an association with alpha and omega
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08:18:58 <int-e> Oh look, a deadly shark attack makes the news... why do shark attacks make the news...
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08:20:06 <Antebrationist> What's the coolest form of flow control you've ever seen in an esolang?
08:22:44 <rain1> that's a great question
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08:25:43 <rain1> it doesnn't count as eso but the fact you can do control with just lambda is pretty incredible, and continuations are also a fascinating control flow mechanism like in unlambda
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08:25:48 <salpynx> int-e: oh, of course, that makes sense. I was wondering if there was a better or existing terms for those concepts, but I've been working those symbols so much over the weekend I've normalised them and missed the other connonations
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09:36:01 <salpynx> I hadn't looked closely at Esowar but had assumed it was 2D, had to look again based on the comment above. 2D would be interesting.
09:37:44 <salpynx> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fungewars is an existing wiki page, it's not clear whether there is a consistent spec or there are simply various implementation attempts of a 2d corewars concept
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10:55:32 <esowiki> [[DotSlash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72036&oldid=72026 * InfiniteDonuts * (-1426)
10:56:58 <esowiki> [[Seltzer Spigot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72037&oldid=72024 * InfiniteDonuts * (+105) Removed redirect to [[DotSlash]]
10:58:20 <esowiki> [[Pie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72038&oldid=66348 * InfiniteDonuts * (-148)
10:58:48 <esowiki> [[Brainflop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72039&oldid=70675 * InfiniteDonuts * (-110)
11:00:17 <esowiki> [[Brainflop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72040&oldid=72039 * InfiniteDonuts * (+103)
11:06:48 <esowiki> [[L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72041&oldid=71451 * InfiniteDonuts * (+90)
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12:22:59 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72042&oldid=71846 * CMinusMinus * (+42)
12:23:07 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72043&oldid=72042 * CMinusMinus * (-42)
12:23:27 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72044&oldid=72043 * CMinusMinus * (+19)
12:24:09 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72045&oldid=72044 * CMinusMinus * (+0)
12:24:43 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72046&oldid=72045 * CMinusMinus * (+0)
12:27:05 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72047&oldid=72046 * CMinusMinus * (+27)
12:27:42 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72048&oldid=72047 * CMinusMinus * (-7)
12:28:11 <esowiki> [[User:CMinusMinus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72049&oldid=72048 * CMinusMinus * (+25)
12:30:11 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72050&oldid=71927 * CMinusMinus * (+10)
12:34:37 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72051&oldid=72050 * CMinusMinus * (+155)
12:34:59 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72052&oldid=72051 * CMinusMinus * (+37)
12:35:12 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72053&oldid=72052 * CMinusMinus * (+0)
12:35:34 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72054&oldid=70986 * CMinusMinus * (+22) /* Partially Silly Ideas */
12:40:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * CMinusMinus * uploaded "[[File:6969asm.png]]"
12:40:36 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72056&oldid=72053 * CMinusMinus * (+52)
12:42:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * InfiniteDonuts * moved [[DotSlash]] to [[0587]]: Changed the name
12:42:47 <esowiki> [[DotSlash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72059&oldid=72058 * InfiniteDonuts * (-18) Blanked the page
12:43:45 <esowiki> [[0587]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72060&oldid=72057 * InfiniteDonuts * (-147)
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12:50:18 <esowiki> [[0587]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72061&oldid=72060 * InfiniteDonuts * (-11)
12:59:01 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72062&oldid=72034 * Emerald * (+7) Fixed truth machine
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13:18:07 <orbitaldecay> salpynx: Okay, I don't have an argument for what alpha and omega are in reality either, but omega seems to coincide with a symbol that tells the interpreter there are no more symbols
13:19:03 <esowiki> [[Brainflop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72063&oldid=72040 * InfiniteDonuts * (+89)
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13:19:37 <esowiki> [[L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72064&oldid=72041 * InfiniteDonuts * (-90)
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13:24:44 <rain1> > The work of Rips, Ol'shanskii, Birget and Sapir[16][17] explored the connections between Dehn functions and time complexity functions of Turing machines and showed that an arbitrary "reasonable" time function can be realized (up to appropriate equivalence) as the Dehn function of some finitely presented group.
13:24:46 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:10: error: parse error on input ‘of’
13:28:30 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehn_function
13:30:21 <esowiki> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72065&oldid=70618 * CMinusMinus * (+66)
13:30:47 <esowiki> [[Brainflop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72066&oldid=72063 * InfiniteDonuts * (+179)
13:31:59 <Emerald> Can anyone make a Quine in my esoteric language?
13:37:10 <Emerald> Link if you are in for making a Quine: Dig - Esolang
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13:38:21 <Emerald> Correction on link: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Dig
13:45:20 <Emerald> Fine, I’ll just try 99 bottles.
13:45:40 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72067&oldid=72056 * CMinusMinus * (+0)
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13:47:04 <esowiki> [[Brainflop]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72068&oldid=72066 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+171) /* External Resources */ cats
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13:53:52 <esowiki> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72069&oldid=72065 * CMinusMinus * (+110)
13:54:02 <esowiki> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72070&oldid=72069 * CMinusMinus * (-2) /* 6969 Assembler */
14:15:42 <esowiki> [[PAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72071&oldid=70955 * CMinusMinus * (-64) /* Guest List */
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14:20:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:SdofgOS Deleter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72072&oldid=70482 * CMinusMinus * (+91) /* A few questions */
14:24:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Binaryfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72073&oldid=57939 * CMinusMinus * (+51)
14:24:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Binaryfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72074&oldid=72073 * CMinusMinus * (-1)
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14:46:16 <Emerald> I need some help on making a program in my programming language, any help?
14:46:29 <Emerald> ' ' < $2 >$ 9 *++'9 0 9 90 0 9 1 6 999>$;:%:b:o:t$:t:l:e:s:$%:o:f:%:b$:e:e:r:%:' '9 09 0 9 9 0 < 9 0 09 4 1 1
14:46:30 <Emerald> >$T:a:k:e:%$:o:n:e:%:$d:o:w:n:,$:%:p:a:s:$s:%:i:t:%$:a:r:o:u:$n:d:%:%:^
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15:01:37 <esowiki> [[L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72075&oldid=72064 * InfiniteDonuts * (+0)
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15:18:14 <esowiki> [[MiniBrainflop]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72076 * InfiniteDonuts * (+684) Created page with "'''miniBrainflop''' is a more compact dialect of [[brainflop]]. Instead of having 7 instructions, it only has 5 and is still Turing-complete It also has less memory space, wit..."
15:19:07 <esowiki> [[User:InfiniteDonuts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72077&oldid=66339 * InfiniteDonuts * (+71)
15:20:21 <esowiki> [[Brainflop]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72078&oldid=72068 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) see [[miniBrainflop]]
15:20:36 <esowiki> [[MiniBrainflop]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72079&oldid=72076 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Instructions */
15:23:51 <esowiki> [[MiniBrainflop]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72080&oldid=72079 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+190) cats + lowertitle
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15:32:03 <esowiki> [[Streetcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72081&oldid=71958 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+453)
15:32:55 <esowiki> [[Streetcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72082&oldid=72081 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Memory */
15:34:10 <esowiki> [[Streetcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72083&oldid=72082 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+120) /* Streets */
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15:44:05 <esowiki> [[0587]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72084&oldid=72061 * InfiniteDonuts * (+1002)
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16:01:55 <esowiki> [[HydraLoop]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72085 * Zzo38 * (+2082) Created page with "[[Category:Languages]][[Category:2020]] Variable names can be any sequence of ASCII letters, numbers, underscores. Variable names are case-sensitive. Comments start with <tt..."
16:02:28 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72086&oldid=72021 * Zzo38 * (+16) +[[HydraLoop]]
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16:17:05 <esowiki> [[0587]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72087&oldid=72084 * InfiniteDonuts * (+28)
16:21:59 <esowiki> [[0587]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72088&oldid=72087 * InfiniteDonuts * (-50)
16:26:02 <esowiki> [[Esowar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72089&oldid=72027 * Orby * (-22) Minor rule adjustment to shorten games
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17:27:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang Playground]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72090 * InfiniteDonuts * (+345) Created page with "The '''Esolang Playground''' is the unofficial IDE of Esolang. It is created by [[user:InfiniteDonuts]]. Currently, the IDE only supports 4 languages: [[L]], [[brainflop]], [..."
17:27:23 <esowiki> [[Esolang Playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72091&oldid=72090 * InfiniteDonuts * (+36)
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18:32:14 <esowiki> [[0587]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72092&oldid=72088 * InfiniteDonuts * (+1343)
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18:53:03 <esowiki> [[0587]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72093&oldid=72092 * InfiniteDonuts * (+205)
18:54:00 <esowiki> [[0587]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72094&oldid=72093 * InfiniteDonuts * (+95)
18:56:44 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72095&oldid=71652 * InfiniteDonuts * (+38)
18:57:26 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72096&oldid=72095 * InfiniteDonuts * (+84) /* 0587 */
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19:39:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang Playground]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72097&oldid=72091 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+7) Where is the 0587 implentation ?
19:48:06 <esowiki> [[Indent]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72098&oldid=71141 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) /* Functions */
19:48:36 <esowiki> [[Indent]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72099&oldid=72098 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Variables */
19:48:52 <esowiki> [[Indent]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72100&oldid=72099 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Variables */
19:49:12 <esowiki> [[Indent]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72101&oldid=72100 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) /* Variables */
19:51:17 <esowiki> [[DINAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72102&oldid=71786 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) /* Comparison */
19:55:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DimensionDoors * New user account
20:01:29 <esowiki> [[Indent]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72103&oldid=72101 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) /* Examples */ fix
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20:16:13 <esowiki> [[2KWLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72104&oldid=71046 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+221) /* Math */
20:17:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72105&oldid=71985 * DimensionDoors * (+67)
20:18:02 <esowiki> [[Binary]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72106 * DimensionDoors * (+320) Created page with "===Binary=== ==Credits== This language is made by [[DimensionDoors|DimensionDoors]] It is his first one. '''Yay!''' ==Syntax== The only characters are 0 and 1. ''(Obviously!)'..."
20:25:09 <esowiki> [[0587]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72107&oldid=72094 * InfiniteDonuts * (-95)
20:25:23 <esowiki> [[0587]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72108&oldid=72107 * InfiniteDonuts * (-22)
20:28:26 <esowiki> [[Binary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72109&oldid=72106 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-13) rm reduntant header
20:29:26 <esowiki> [[Binary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72110&oldid=72109 * DimensionDoors * (+427)
20:30:18 <esowiki> [[Binary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72111&oldid=72110 * DimensionDoors * (+49)
20:31:51 <esowiki> [[Binary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72112&oldid=72111 * DimensionDoors * (+2)
20:33:33 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72113&oldid=72086 * DimensionDoors * (+13)
20:46:48 <esowiki> [[DimensionDoors]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72114 * DimensionDoors * (+67) Created page with "Hi this is DimensionDoors. Here are some of my projects: [[Binary]]"
20:48:09 <esowiki> [[User:DimensionDoors]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72115 * DimensionDoors * (+68) Created page with "Hi! This is DimensionDoors! Here are some of my projects: [[Binary]]"
20:49:24 <esowiki> [[Binary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72116&oldid=72112 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+130) /* Cat */ cats
20:51:50 <esowiki> [[DimensionDoors]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72117&oldid=72114 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-67) blanking page (looks like [[User:DimensionDoors]] accidentally created this instead of his user page at first)
20:52:31 <esowiki> [[Binary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72118&oldid=72116 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-9) fix user link
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21:02:13 <zzo38> What is the function that has a number of nested "repeat X times" loops equal to the initial value of X, and the inside of the innermost loop is to increment X?
21:10:33 <tswett[m]> Sounds like the Ackermann function?
21:11:27 <b_jonas> no, I think it's tetration or something
21:12:01 <zzo38> This function has only one input though, and one output.
21:13:00 <tswett[m]> So, f(3) would be calculated like...
21:13:06 <fizzie> Wouldn't that just be 1, 2*2, 3*3*3, 4*4*4*4, aka X^X? Well, maybe I thought it too fast.
21:13:53 <tswett[m]> x_1 = x; repeat(x_1) { x_2 = x; repeat(x_2) { x_3 = x; repeat (x_3) { x = x + 1; } } } return x;
21:14:45 <tswett[m]> Actually I forgot to put x = 3; at the beginning of that.
21:14:50 <fizzie> Oh, it's "repeat X times" with the new value of X?
21:14:57 <tswett[m]> Hmmmm. That's a very interesting function.
21:15:01 <zzo38> With the new value of X.
21:15:13 <zzo38> (at the time each loop is entered)
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21:15:59 <fizzie> I guess my default procedure for figuring out what that is would be to evaluate the first few values and feed it to OEIS. :)
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21:32:44 <tswett[m]> Let's see, what does it do with 0? There are 0 nested loops, so really we just have "increment X", so f(0) = 1.
21:33:32 <tswett[m]> With 1, we start with X = 1 and then do the following 1 time: increment X. So you get 2.
21:33:57 <tswett[m]> With 2, we start with X = 2 and then do the following 2 times: do the following X times: increment X.
21:34:18 <tswett[m]> "Do the following X times: increment X" means double X, so this amounts to starting with X = 2 and doing the following 2 times: double X.
21:35:02 <tswett[m]> With 3, we start with X = 3 and then do the following 3 times: do the following X times: do the following X times: increment X.
21:35:21 <tswett[m]> Start with X = 3 and then do the following 3 times: do the following X times: double X.
21:35:56 <tswett[m]> Start with X = 3 and then do the following 3 times: set X to X * 2^X.
21:37:46 <tswett[m]> Okay, so we start with 3, and after the first step we have 3 * 2^3 = 24, then after the second step we have 24 * 2^24 = 402653184, then after the third and final step we have 402653184 * 2^402653184 = ...
21:38:47 <zzo38> Well, it is probably too big, I suppose.
21:48:42 <tswett[m]> Let's see, that number is, of course, 3 * 2^3 * 2^24 * 2^402653184, meaning it's 3 * 2^402653211, meaning its binary representation is "11" followed by 402653211 "0"s.
21:50:32 <tswett[m]> If you made me write that as a string of bytes, I'd write it as 00000000 00000000 00000000 ... 00000000 00011000, where there are 50331651 "00000000" bytes.
21:51:01 <tswett[m]> So that number as a file would be a 50,331,652 byte file, but one which would compress very well.
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22:22:24 <tswett[m]> In completely unrelated news, anyone want to talk about sliced tangle diagrams?
22:23:28 <tswett[m]> A couple of years ago, I came up with a notation for writing knots, links and tangles, and some rules for manipulating this notation.
22:23:56 <tswett[m]> Then I figured that the notation is probably something that would be kind of obvious to a knot theorist, so surely someone's already invented it.
22:24:17 <tswett[m]> Sure enough, someone has. The notations are called sliced tangle diagrams.
22:24:18 <zzo38> What is that notation? I don't know of knot theory, but maybe someone else does know
22:24:30 <zzo38> O, is there a Wikipedia article about that?
22:26:04 <tswett[m]> Imagine you have a box with zero or more holes arranged in a row in the top and zero or more holes arranged in a row in the bottom.
22:26:27 <tswett[m]> The box is filled with zero or more strings. Each string either forms a closed loop, or exits the box through exactly two of the holes.
22:26:32 <tswett[m]> Each hole has exactly one string exiting the box through it.
22:27:26 <tswett[m]> There are five "elementary tangles". They are...
22:27:51 <tswett[m]> I, which represents a box with a hole in the top and in the bottom, and a string running straight from the top hole to the bottom hole
22:28:07 <tswett[m]> A, which represents a box with two holes in the bottom and a string connecting them in the most straightforward manner
22:28:20 <tswett[m]> V, which is the vertical mirror image of A
22:29:07 <tswett[m]> Z, which represents a box with two holes in the top and two holes in the bottom, and a string going straight from each hole to the diagonally opposite hole, where the string connecting top-right to bottom-left passes in front of the string connecting top-left to bottom-right
22:29:31 <tswett[m]> N, which is the mirror image (about any of the 3 coordinate planes) of Z
22:30:10 <tswett[m]> Boxes can be stacked horizontally and vertically. However, two boxes can only be stacked vertically if the number of holes in the bottom of the upper box equals the number of holes in the top of the lower box.
22:31:33 <tswett[m]> And that's it. Any knot, link or tangle can be written using these five elementary tangles and the two stacking operations.
22:33:02 <tswett[m]> So, suppose we denote horizontal stacking with juxtaposition and vertical stacking with a slash.
22:34:00 <zzo38> Yes, that seem like OK to me
22:34:19 <tswett[m]> A/V is the unknot. AA/VV is two unknots. AA/IIII/VV is two unknots that have been drawn somewhat taller. AA/IZI/VV is an unknot drawn with a crossing.
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22:35:13 <tswett[m]> AA/IZI/IZI/VV is the Hopf link, and AA/IZI/IZI/IZI/VV is a trefoil knot.
22:36:22 <tswett[m]> I'm not sure if all this is making sense.
22:36:37 <zzo38> I think it does make sense.
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00:50:56 <tswett[m]> The (-2,3,7) pretzel knot is A/IAAI/(N/N)(Z/Z/Z)(Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z)/IVVI/V.
00:51:57 <tswett[m]> The trefoil knot is the (3,0) pretzel knot, so it's A/IAI/(Z/Z/Z)II/IVI/V.
00:52:21 <tswett[m]> Alternatively, it's just AA/I(Z/Z/Z)I/VV.
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02:07:12 <lambdabot> LOWI 120150Z AUTO 09005KT 050V120 9999 -RA FEW018 SCT022 BKN030 05/03 Q1012
02:07:29 <int-e> ...that is kind of cold...
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02:27:24 <zzo38> I have the other question about the function I mentioned before: Which other functions is it faster than and slower than?
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02:42:27 <zzo38> (What is its Grzegorczyk index?)
02:44:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: I suspect that it grows as tetration
02:45:01 <b_jonas> what was your function exaclty?
02:46:02 <zzo38> It is a number of nested "repeat X times" loops, nested X times, with the inside being "increment X".
02:46:55 <zzo38> A function that does grow as tetration presumably has a Grzegorczyk index of 4, I think.
02:51:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: can you define your function more precisely? because I don't understand what you want the loops to do
02:51:57 <int-e> sounds vaguely ackermann-like
02:52:17 <int-e> (with the nesting level of the loops as the first argument)
02:57:16 <zzo38> b_jonas: I am not sure how to explain it better, right now
02:58:12 <int-e> The point is, one can define the Ackermann function as a kind of function iteration: A_0(x) = x+1; A_n(x) = A_(n-1)^x(1)... and I believe that loop function is L_0(x) = x+1; L_(n+1)(x) = L_n^x(x) which is very similar.
03:06:26 <zzo38> Then maybe its Grzegorczyk index is omega.
03:07:44 <int-e> Well, n is the nesting level of loops which is fixed.
03:08:02 <int-e> So what you get is always primitve recursive.
03:09:11 <int-e> Eventually each additional level of loops will push you up 1 level in the Grzegorczyk hierarchy... the trouble will be figuring out where that starts.
03:09:49 <int-e> It's probably not even hard... but I can't be bothered.
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03:14:18 <zzo38> OK, although the nesting level depends on the input
03:14:40 <int-e> It's probably a perfect fit, L_n is in E^n but not in E^{n-1}. The first part is easy to prove; the second one... I don't know how.
03:15:18 <int-e> zzo38: that wasn't clear from your description half an hour ago (I didn't check further back)
03:16:12 <zzo38> (The nesting level is equal to the input.)
03:16:29 <int-e> I thought the initial value of X was the input...
03:17:01 <zzo38> Yes, it is, but the initial value of X is also the same as the nesting level.
03:18:08 <int-e> So, L_x(x), similar to A_x(x). Maybe one can prove that A_x(x) <= L_x(x) <= A_x(x+1) for all x?
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03:19:46 <zzo38> Yes, maybe, although I don't know the proof.
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07:21:50 <zzo38> One thing the bad AI does in Pokemon Card GB2 is even if they have level 68 Zapdos and the only card on your side is level 28 Mr.Mime, they will still attack.
07:22:05 <zzo38> (The AI will also often do many other things when it is probably better to stall.)
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08:26:35 <zzo38> I have a idea about a trainer card to make in a Pokemon card game: Look in opponent's hand, and then you may select one of those cards. If you did, then your turn is now finished, but opponent must play the selected card as soon as possible; if they don't, then they can't attack, but this effect still ends at the end of their turn.
08:28:33 <zzo38> (If it is card they can use in more than one way, such as a energy, or a potion, or a evolution that they have multiple cards in play that it matches, then they can still decide for themself which way they wish to do it.)
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08:48:28 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72119 * DmilkaSTD * (+38) Created page with "BytFuck is a [[Brainfuck derivatives]]"
08:49:11 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72120&oldid=72119 * DmilkaSTD * (+38)
08:49:21 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72121&oldid=72120 * DmilkaSTD * (-9)
08:50:41 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72122&oldid=72121 * DmilkaSTD * (+35)
08:51:12 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72123&oldid=72122 * DmilkaSTD * (-2)
08:55:14 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72124&oldid=72123 * DmilkaSTD * (+354)
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09:08:42 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72125&oldid=72124 * DmilkaSTD * (+867)
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09:10:18 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72126&oldid=72125 * DmilkaSTD * (+81)
09:22:22 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72127&oldid=72126 * DmilkaSTD * (+45)
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10:09:36 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72128&oldid=72032 * Emerald * (+296) Detail and secret oooo
10:10:35 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72129&oldid=72062 * Emerald * (+2) Added , and .
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10:13:50 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72130&oldid=72128 * Emerald * (+98) Emphasis and dig roast
10:14:26 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72131&oldid=72130 * Emerald * (+1) /* Languages I made: */
10:14:49 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72132&oldid=72131 * Emerald * (-1)
10:15:07 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72133&oldid=72132 * Emerald * (+1)
10:20:43 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72134&oldid=72129 * Emerald * (-2) Changed command with concern the keyboard users couldnt type it (me on mobile!)
10:21:15 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72135&oldid=72134 * Emerald * (-2) Command change
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10:22:13 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72136&oldid=72135 * Emerald * (-11) Clarified
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10:36:17 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72137&oldid=72136 * Emerald * (+156) Implementation soon!
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10:50:56 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72138&oldid=72137 * Emerald * (+46) Category
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11:47:09 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72139&oldid=72138 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Hello World */
11:47:21 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72140&oldid=72139 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) /* Underground */
12:10:33 <esowiki> [[Brainflop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72141&oldid=72078 * InfiniteDonuts * (+43)
12:13:49 <esowiki> [[Brainflop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72142&oldid=72141 * InfiniteDonuts * (+253)
12:15:46 <esowiki> [[Esolang Playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72143&oldid=72097 * InfiniteDonuts * (-10)
12:16:51 <esowiki> [[Esolang Playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72144&oldid=72143 * InfiniteDonuts * (+0)
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12:31:14 <esowiki> [[Brainflop]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72145&oldid=72142 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) /* Commands */
12:31:28 <esowiki> [[Brainflop]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72146&oldid=72145 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-17) /* Commands */
12:45:40 <esowiki> [[2KWLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72147&oldid=72104 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+274) /* Ternary operator */
12:47:15 <esowiki> [[Esolang Playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72148&oldid=72144 * InfiniteDonuts * (-1)
12:51:11 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72149&oldid=69973 * InfiniteDonuts * (+109) /* External resources */
12:53:06 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72150&oldid=71984 * InfiniteDonuts * (+85)
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13:11:48 <esowiki> [[Text]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72152&oldid=67525 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Description */
13:14:09 <esowiki> [[Text]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72153&oldid=72152 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Development of a compiler */
13:16:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Text]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72154&oldid=69137 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+47) unsigned
13:21:05 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72155&oldid=71990 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Hello world */ outb is Ascii
13:21:31 <esowiki> [[(HA)pple waITING]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72156&oldid=72155 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+47) /* Hello world */
13:27:33 <esowiki> [[Esolang Playground]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72157&oldid=72151 * InfiniteDonuts * (-21)
13:27:52 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72158&oldid=72149 * InfiniteDonuts * (+16) /* JavaScript interpreter */
13:28:23 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72159&oldid=72150 * InfiniteDonuts * (+16)
13:28:45 <esowiki> [[L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72160&oldid=72075 * InfiniteDonuts * (+12) /* JavaScript */
13:29:02 <esowiki> [[Brainflop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72161&oldid=72146 * InfiniteDonuts * (+16) /* External Resources */
13:29:54 <esowiki> [[MiniBrainflop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72162&oldid=72080 * InfiniteDonuts * (+16) /* External resources */
13:30:52 <esowiki> [[User:InfiniteDonuts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72163&oldid=72077 * InfiniteDonuts * (+126)
13:31:03 <esowiki> [[User:InfiniteDonuts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72164&oldid=72163 * InfiniteDonuts * (+1)
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14:03:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72165&oldid=72030 * Emerald * (-147) Fix
14:04:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72166&oldid=72165 * Emerald * (+145)
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14:04:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72167&oldid=72166 * Emerald * (+21) Fix
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14:34:17 <esowiki> [[Casino]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72168&oldid=52461 * LegionMammal978 * (+196) cat; is this even TC?
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15:16:14 <esowiki> [[User talk:InfiniteDonuts]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72169 * LegionMammal978 * (+263) Created page with "Why did you delete the Pie interpreter (without even leaving any language documentation)? I have a copy, but I obviously can't redistribute it due to copyright. ~~~~"
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16:41:32 <esowiki> [[User talk:InfiniteDonuts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72170&oldid=72169 * InfiniteDonuts * (+153)
16:44:26 <esowiki> [[User talk:InfiniteDonuts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72171&oldid=72170 * InfiniteDonuts * (+123)
16:46:00 <esowiki> [[User talk:InfiniteDonuts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72172&oldid=72171 * InfiniteDonuts * (+15)
16:55:28 <esowiki> [[Pie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72173&oldid=72038 * InfiniteDonuts * (+703)
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17:43:01 <imode> still trying to build basic control flow constructs....
17:43:35 <imode> X while Y -> X if [Y rflatten [X while Y]]
17:52:33 <imode> doing that without variables isn't particularly tricky but it does get involved.
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19:47:27 <esowiki> [[Binary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72174&oldid=72118 * DimensionDoors * (+17)
19:49:39 <esowiki> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72175&oldid=68351 * DimensionDoors * (+13)
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20:46:52 <esowiki> [[User talk:InfiniteDonuts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72176&oldid=72172 * LegionMammal978 * (+382)
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22:22:39 <gord> Esoteric add your birth date year plus your age and or everyone it equals 2020, happy birthday world
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22:28:00 <Antebrationist> orbitaldecay, inspired by your esowar, I made a 2d version with my esolang, Eldritch.
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22:50:43 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72177&oldid=72035 * Salpynx * (+2612) Simple translation of BCT into Python
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23:41:11 <Antebrationist> zzo38, I made a two-player version of Eldritch, inspired by orbitaldecay's version
23:43:01 <zzo38> OK, make the esolang wiki add the description about the two player version also
23:46:04 <esowiki> [[Esolang Playground]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72178&oldid=72157 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) Link
23:52:54 <Antebrationist> Basically, I made d (output) into a NOP, and made it so that if each player's original instruction pointer passed over an !, then the other player would win.
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23:53:30 <Antebrationist> I've found that shielding your program with walls of ÿ to be surprisingly effective.
00:23:30 <orbitaldecay> While I'm pinging everyone, int-e I had a thought today about treating reversible bitfuck as a group, which reduces the picofuck problem to that of finding a generating set of order 2
00:38:16 <zzo38> I thinki it is worth trying it, I suppose.
00:38:16 <zzo38> I don't know if that will work or not, but you can try.
00:38:17 <orbitaldecay> Looking for algorithms to find the minimal generating set of a group
00:39:53 <zzo38> Yes, I would suppose so.
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01:48:04 <esowiki> [[User:RocketRace]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72179 * RocketRace * (+181) Short summary.
01:49:28 <esowiki> [[User:RocketRace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72180&oldid=72179 * RocketRace * (+84) Discord
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02:06:06 <salpynx> orbitaldecay: rain1 shared a link here to Dehn functions, which got me investigating groups too
02:07:00 <salpynx> hah, I misread timestamps on the logs, I thought orbitaldecay was just here
02:16:32 <salpynx> I have a qn.: if <*,{,}|∅> is the free group on the nanofuck alphabet, how would you define the group of syntactically valid nanofuck using similar notation <*,{,}|R> where the relations R represent the CFG S → SS | ε | * | {S} ?
02:17:27 <salpynx> Does this even make sense, or am I mixing oil and water?
02:18:29 <esowiki> [[Psyche]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72181 * IFcoltransG * (+513) I will not apologise.
02:19:53 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72182&oldid=72113 * IFcoltransG * (+13) /* P */ + Psyche, a mapping of SKI onto the Freudian trichotomy of the mind.
02:21:14 <esowiki> [[User:IFcoltransG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72183&oldid=70727 * IFcoltransG * (+136) /* Published Esoteric Languages */ + Psyche
02:22:11 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72184&oldid=72177 * Salpynx * (-1) typo
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03:02:23 <zzo38> I suppose I understand the last part at least.
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04:24:28 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72185&oldid=72184 * Salpynx * (+2903) at this point I just want to make a time-cube joke at my own expense... this all needs filtering down and editing <sigh>
04:29:48 <zzo38> Is there a kind of picture compression for multiple versions of a picture at different resolutions?
04:49:03 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Simple translation conjecture]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72186&oldid=72185 * Salpynx * (+387) /* Conclusion WRT 's significance for simple translations */ summing up attempt
05:02:51 <imode> nice... got an interpreter off the ground.
05:03:11 <salpynx> MS .ico and Amiga icon files come to mind as containers for multiple images, but that's not compression. Googling "multiresolution compression" returns summaries of inaccessible academic papers that cover the idea in theory
05:06:44 <salpynx> I think I'm wrong about Amiga icons being multi-res
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07:43:57 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72187&oldid=71663 * YamTokTpaFa * (+333) [[INTERCAL|INTERCAL-72]]
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10:03:24 <esowiki> [[Casino]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72188&oldid=72168 * Ais523 * (+106) /* Language Overview */ fix spec to match impl; the spec couldn't possibly be correct because its "RNG" alternated between two different values, I think the author confused the seeding operation with the next-integer operation
10:10:05 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72189&oldid=72140 * Emerald * (+67) /* Underground */
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10:20:47 <esowiki> [[Casino]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72190&oldid=72188 * Ais523 * (+2382) TC with bignum cells
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11:17:35 <esowiki> [[Eniuq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72191&oldid=56986 * LegionMammal978 * (+42) fixed link
11:50:42 <esowiki> [[User talk:InfiniteDonuts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72192&oldid=72176 * InfiniteDonuts * (+71)
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11:58:48 <orbitaldecay> salpynx: I think that we can just work with <*,{,}|∅> because unmatched parentheses can always be given a meaning rather than it being syntactically invalid
11:58:55 <esowiki> [[CLC-INTERCAL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72193&oldid=20042 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0)
12:03:13 <esowiki> [[Aeolbonn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72194&oldid=68989 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) /* External resources */ it says in the description
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12:31:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72195&oldid=71904 * Orby * (+122)
12:33:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72196&oldid=72195 * Orby * (+114) /* Group formulation */ Adding links
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12:38:27 <orbitaldecay> Okay, I think reversible bitfuck has the group presentation <a,b,c|a^2> and the PF problem can be reduced to the question, what is the rank of <a,b,c|a^2>?
12:39:03 <orbitaldecay> If we reformulate rbf s.t. unmatched parentheses have some simple meaning
12:56:54 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72197&oldid=71885 * Orby * (+278) /* Minimization */
12:58:05 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72198&oldid=72197 * Orby * (+58) /* Minimization */
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13:06:12 <esowiki> [[Infinite Goto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72199&oldid=70443 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) /* Syntax */
13:28:12 <rain1> orbitaldecay: woah how did this connection with group theor come about?
13:28:54 <orbitaldecay> I was just thinking about how rbf is basically a group and that the minimization problem is essentially asking what the rank of that group is
13:29:11 <orbitaldecay> in a more general setting, the minimization problem is asking what the rank of a monoid is
13:29:14 <rain1> that is super interesting
13:29:20 <rain1> I have been learning about group theory
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13:30:58 <orbitaldecay> another bonus from thinking of rbf as a group is that we know rbf is non-abelian, so rank(<a,b,c|a^2>) > 1
13:31:28 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higman%27s_embedding_theorem
13:32:02 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentation_of_a_group#Novikov%E2%80%93Boone_theorem
13:33:45 <orbitaldecay> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_representation is interesting too
13:34:16 <rain1> i want to think about this but im a bit preoccupied
13:34:32 <rain1> i think the full group presentation would include a very complex set of relations
13:34:46 <rain1> fully explaining how every command interacts with each other
13:35:14 <rain1> this connection could be very fruitful though, group homomorphism preserve a bunch of things
13:35:37 <rain1> so if any one of these things can be calculated for NF and PF and are different this would prove they cannot be simply translated
13:35:55 <orbitaldecay> we can always start with a less structured presentation and add structure as required
13:36:34 <orbitaldecay> <a,b,c|a^2> basically captures rbf. There are some other things that boil down to the identity like (+) etc. but it's not important if they're missed
13:36:47 <rain1> im sure you are right but i don't yet understand that idea
13:37:28 <orbitaldecay> at the end of the day, we will know if we've found pf because the translation will work
13:38:08 <rain1> you just made me realize something important
13:38:25 <rain1> if reversible languages are groups, maybe that's why semigroups are used to study turing machines
13:43:02 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72200&oldid=71983 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25)
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14:18:31 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72201&oldid=72198 * Orby * (-1) /* Minimization */
14:34:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72202&oldid=72196 * Orby * (+161) /* Group formulation */
14:34:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72203&oldid=72202 * Orby * (+7) /* Group formulation */
14:35:01 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72204&oldid=72203 * Orby * (+1) /* Group formulation */
14:44:42 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72205&oldid=72201 * Orby * (+5) /* Minimization */
14:48:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72206&oldid=72204 * Orby * (+19) /* Group formulation */
15:10:37 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72207&oldid=72205 * Orby * (+2) /* Minimization */
15:11:14 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72208&oldid=72207 * Orby * (+35) /* Minimization */
15:42:45 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72209&oldid=72208 * Orby * (+733)
15:44:01 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72210&oldid=72209 * Orby * (+22) /* Thinking in terms of monoids */
15:48:19 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72211&oldid=72210 * Orby * (+72) /* Thinking in terms of monoids */
15:50:44 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72212&oldid=72211 * Orby * (+14) /* Minimization */
16:01:53 <b_jonas> I just unironically sorted a table on seven key fields. And I think none of the seven are redundant.
16:03:12 <b_jonas> Admittedly it's an outer merge result, and the seventh key discriminates only the two rows from the right join part.
16:06:59 <b_jonas> and then the first table of that outer join is also a left join, which accounts for one more sort key
16:22:16 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72213&oldid=72212 * Orby * (+133) /* Thinking in terms of monoids */
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16:28:54 <esowiki> [[Esofun]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72214 * Palaiologos * (+9526) Initial specification draft
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16:29:36 <kspalaiologos> I'm working on my first (decent) esoteric language
16:29:57 <kspalaiologos> any opinions on the draft? esowiki bot should have mentioned it above
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16:38:28 <esowiki> [[Esofun]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72215&oldid=72214 * Palaiologos * (+0) 4.1.a refers to integers, not nil
16:43:19 <esowiki> [[User:Nobody]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72216&oldid=56536 * Nobody * (+25)
16:46:46 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72217&oldid=72213 * Orby * (+1303) /* Thinking in terms of monoids */
16:47:08 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: doesn't asmbf count?
16:47:29 <kspalaiologos> but it's a kinda compiler of some sort to brainfuck
16:47:38 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72218&oldid=72217 * Orby * (+2) /* Rank of monoid */
16:48:50 <b_jonas> I think it counts, unless you used it for production to write programs for a casino or something
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16:50:08 <b_jonas> but don't worry, for many people, the first esolang they create is a toy language that's much more silly than asmbf
16:54:58 <b_jonas> for me it's the either the unfinished toy language geo that I made for a univ course (you can tell it's unfinished: the name is geo becauase I wanted to add some geometry-related stuff like vector operations), or the really horribly unusable broken komalpsz language which may or may not be esoteric
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16:58:21 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72219&oldid=72218 * Orby * (+489)
17:04:05 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72220&oldid=68790 * Orby * (+371) /* Formalizing requirements */
17:05:13 <b_jonas> I should probably make a wiki article about komalpsz, just as a bad example you shoud avoid
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17:09:44 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: ask me again later if I don't get Back to that
17:10:13 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72221&oldid=72219 * Orby * (+24) /* Thinking in terms of monoids */ No longer overloading A for everything
17:11:28 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72222&oldid=72221 * Orby * (+0) /* Rank of monoid */
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17:15:05 <orbitaldecay> Hey rain1, check out the simple translation page
17:15:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72223&oldid=72167 * Emerald * (+140) Regret
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17:27:02 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72224&oldid=72222 * Orby * (+0) /* Rank of monoid */
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17:35:14 <arseniiv> <kspalaiologos> any opinions on the draft? esowiki bot should have mentioned it above => please forgive me but I think the description is even harder to wrap one’s head about than with descriptions of my esolangs :) though I can definitely see a couple of alike typos in 8.1.b…8.1.j (7.1.a, 7.1.b are mentioned but probably 8.1.a, 8.1.b should be there instead)
17:35:46 <arseniiv> I’d say a couple of examples would make the deal way easier
17:36:10 <arseniiv> (I’m myself bad with examples BTW)
17:36:11 <esowiki> [[Esofun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72225&oldid=72215 * Palaiologos * (+0)
17:36:40 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: also, voyad is a cool word, thanks
17:36:47 <kspalaiologos> there are at least 30 ways a `+' operator can behave
17:37:15 <kspalaiologos> ultimately this language will be harder than Malbolge, but also way cleaner
17:37:55 <arseniiv> (you wrote you’d like to break another unprogrammable language, do you make this one so that there would be something new to break?)
17:38:14 <arseniiv> while I wrote the question you’ve already answered it
17:38:43 <kspalaiologos> but I doubt someone would decide to take his time trying to work out... this
17:39:33 <arseniiv> hm how hard it is to design such a language?.. If that’s not too hard, I’d try to make something and see how fast you’re going to crack it, it might be fun
17:40:28 <arseniiv> though making the language cleaner would make the task harder
17:40:38 <kspalaiologos> hah, well, you need to actually ensure that the draft is consistent
17:41:12 <kspalaiologos> if it's not consistent and there is a slight chance some behavior is inconsistent, then I'm most probably not touching it
17:41:29 <kspalaiologos> also I already put a lot of work into the draft lol
17:41:33 <arseniiv> for now I try to write some parsing stuff in Python but later maybe I’ll try a thing or other
17:41:36 <kspalaiologos> I've been writing it and pondering for around 2 hours
17:42:00 <kspalaiologos> why isn't there my Malbolge self interpreter linked on my user page
17:42:24 <arseniiv> <kspalaiologos> if it's not consistent and there is a slight chance some behavior is inconsistent, then I'm most probably not touching it => yeah I like my descriptions be consistent. They should clearly define if something does something or is it an UB if it’s chosen so
17:43:31 <esowiki> [[User:Palaiologos]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72226&oldid=70870 * Palaiologos * (+126)
17:43:42 <arseniiv> anyway have a good time with this language. I’ll maybe try to understand a later draft
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17:44:39 <kspalaiologos> but the draft in my predictions will grow massively
17:44:56 <kspalaiologos> just the list of adverbs or verbs for instance - there can be up to 512 of them
17:45:03 <kspalaiologos> and if I want to make my language fullfill the design goals
17:45:12 <gnu-nobody> it seems that i missed some discussion regarding palaiologos' lang
17:45:25 <kspalaiologos> I have to design 256 monadic, 256 niladic, 256 voyadic, 256 dyadic verbs and 256 adverbs
17:47:22 <kspalaiologos> my ideas include adding a verb related to generating stuff with mersenne twister (lmao)
17:47:47 <kspalaiologos> the real hell will be implementing all of this, lol
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18:13:42 <esowiki> [[Simple translation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72227&oldid=72224 * Orby * (+166)
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18:23:28 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72228&oldid=69536 * DmilkaSTD * (-1264) Replaced content with "==Favorite Esolang== I have many esolangs that I really like, probably my favorite is False and BitBitJump."
18:47:01 <esowiki> [[User:Palaiologos]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72229&oldid=72226 * Palaiologos * (+79)
18:54:25 <esowiki> [[Esofun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72230&oldid=72225 * Palaiologos * (+2353) div/mul operators
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19:10:29 <gnu-nobody> palaiologos this thing is looking well currently
19:12:17 <esowiki> [[Artemis]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72231 * Orby * (+2319) Creating Artemis
19:13:48 <esowiki> [[Asvi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72232&oldid=72017 * DmilkaSTD * (+146)
19:14:16 <esowiki> [[Artemis]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72233&oldid=72231 * Orby * (+11) /* Defining procedures */
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19:26:14 <esowiki> [[String-rewriting paradigm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72234&oldid=71147 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35)
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19:26:33 <esowiki> [[String rewriting paradigm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72235&oldid=71145 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35)
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19:36:00 <esowiki> [[Artemis]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72236&oldid=72233 * Orby * (+129) /* Definition */
19:39:12 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hppavilion1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72237&oldid=50569 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+52) unsigned
19:39:47 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72238&oldid=71752 * Orby * (+68)
19:41:59 <esowiki> [[Asvi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72239&oldid=72232 * DmilkaSTD * (+518)
19:42:28 <esowiki> [[Artemis]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72240&oldid=72236 * Orby * (+1) /* Relationship to &brainfuck */
19:43:00 <esowiki> [[Artemis]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72241&oldid=72240 * Orby * (+41)
19:44:09 <esowiki> [[Artemis]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72242&oldid=72241 * Orby * (-31)
19:44:34 <esowiki> [[Artemis]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72243&oldid=72242 * Orby * (+0) /* Defining procedures */
19:51:57 <esowiki> [[Artemis]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72244&oldid=72243 * Orby * (+21) /* Defining procedures */
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20:24:14 <esowiki> [[-]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72245 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1418) Created page with "'''-''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. It uses only two characters, and -. ==Memory== - has four wrapping unsigned 8-bit cells, each of which sta..."
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20:26:03 <esowiki> [[-]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72246&oldid=72245 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+229) /* Interpreter */
20:26:18 <esowiki> [[-]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72247&oldid=72246 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Interpreter */
20:27:35 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72248&oldid=72182 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) /* Non-alphabetic */ + [[-]] and [[--Unless]]
20:28:13 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72249&oldid=71989 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+65) /* Languages */
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22:47:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * OpenByte * New user account
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23:09:10 <esowiki> [[Talk:Simple translation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72250&oldid=71834 * Salpynx * (+3579) Explanation of deferred parsing tricks WRT simple-translations
23:09:52 <salpynx> orbitaldecay: yes, just finished typing up my latest thoughts on my ST tricks -- hopefully they make some kind of sense!
23:10:18 <orbitaldecay> cool! reading now. I also made a lot of progress today as recorded on the simple translation page.
23:15:03 <orbitaldecay> Okay, interesting. Need some time to digest that. I realized today that, for concatenative languages like bf-alikes, the minimization problem is essentially determining the rank of the monoid which is formed by the language
23:15:45 <orbitaldecay> in the special case of rbf, that monoid is actually a group, and finding the rank of a group is even easier
23:17:33 <salpynx> I need to keep reading up on groups -- I may have overlooked the significance of the 'reversible' part of RBF when it comes to groups too. I think you implied that it was significant?
23:18:16 <orbitaldecay> Groups are pretty straightforward to understand. It's a set with a binary operator that is associative, there's an identity, and every element has an inverse
23:19:20 <orbitaldecay> In the case of rbf, the binary operator is concatenation, the empty string is the identity, and the inverses go *: self inverse, >:<, (:)
23:20:02 <orbitaldecay> that doesn't totally nail it because there's more structure than that, but the rbf monoid is a quotient of that group
23:20:31 <orbitaldecay> the rank is just the cardinality of the smallest generating set, i.e. the smallest set of operators that can be combined to form any program
23:21:36 <salpynx> right, I hadn't focused on determining the specific inverses, that helps.
23:22:06 <orbitaldecay> yeah, once you identify the inverses then the simple translation problem can be viewed as a problem of group presentation
23:22:23 <orbitaldecay> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentation_of_a_group
23:23:23 <orbitaldecay> so, rank(<a,b,c|a^2=empty string>) >= rank(rbf) basically
23:23:53 <orbitaldecay> unfortunately rank(<a,b,c|a^2>) = 3, so it doesn't actually tighten the bound from what we already know
23:24:19 <salpynx> That was where I stalled, applying what I understood about groups specifically to the RBF and PF examples. I got the free group structure, but wasn't sure if we needed more detail in the relations
23:24:48 <orbitaldecay> more generally, simple translations of concatenative languages can be viewed as a problem of monoid presentation (a monoid is just a group that doesn't necessarily have inverses)
23:25:19 <orbitaldecay> the a^2 = e relation doesn't actually help, but it is true (a = *)
23:28:18 <orbitaldecay> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentation_of_a_monoid is a gold mine
23:28:20 <salpynx> I think I can put the investigation of simple-translation tricks behind me now. I feel like I understand why if PF is possible using 0 as a self-interpreter that is not as interesting a result as a more direct translation which you are aiming for. Now that I can separate the two approaches, it should be possible to prove whether a direct
23:29:16 <orbitaldecay> yes, I think I have also made progress. I realize now that what I was trying to capture with the definition of a simple translation is really just the problem of determining the rank of the monoid of a concatenative language
23:30:02 <orbitaldecay> which appears to be subtly different than the approach you've taken
23:30:18 <orbitaldecay> but, I'm satisfied with that framing of the problem
23:30:46 <salpynx> This group theory approach is interesting, and I'll try to catch up. I was reading a lot based on the link rain1 posted
23:31:31 <salpynx> I had assumed it was meant as a direct pointer to us looking into simple-translations because it seemed to fit so well, and was literally why I started on the group path the other day
23:31:47 <orbitaldecay> yeah, the crucial thing is understanding that a concatenative language is a monoid, and a reversible concatenative language is a group. Both of which have presentations, which are essentially what we are working with.
23:32:19 <salpynx> rain1: I'm not so sure you meant that Dehn fn link for us, and it was just something interesting you had been reading? :) Either way, thanks for the link!
23:32:47 <orbitaldecay> I took a couple courses in group theory in school. I have forgotten pretty much everything except the definition and the elementary results, but there is a lot of rich structure.
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23:33:35 <orbitaldecay> https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/3672804/minimal-generator-of-group?noredirect=1#comment7547744_3672804
23:34:50 <orbitaldecay> But that stuff is really only applicable to concatenative languages. It just so happens that a lot of esolangs are concatenative.
23:35:07 <salpynx> I'm teaching myself as I go. It's something I have wanted to learn more about for some time, but I find I need a concrete project or problem I care about to apply the new knowledge to before I can get or retain it
23:35:49 <orbitaldecay> I've actually been looking for an application of group theory to esolangs for a while, so it's kind of ironic that I found out it's been hiding under my nose for years.
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23:37:45 <salpynx> yes, the concatenative aspect was something I thought was significant in my messy notes page on the wiki early on, I was struggling to articulate it and suspected my definition of concatenative was non-standard. I'm glad the concepts are coming together
23:38:12 <orbitaldecay> me too. it's exciting. this has opened up a whole new world of ideas to me.
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23:39:11 <orbitaldecay> the thing I didn't get for the longest time, is that you can think about the strings of the language as the elements of the group and not worry about the semantics at all, that's how you can view rbf as a group and things like ( and ) as elements
23:39:55 <orbitaldecay> I had tried to model bf +, -, <, > with linear operators before, but always got hung up when it came to the loop constructs
23:41:01 <orbitaldecay> I'm looking for more concatenative programming languages. It appears most of them are stack based (for some reason), but bf is sort of accidentally concatenative
23:41:08 <orbitaldecay> and I think a lot of esolangs fall into this category
23:42:48 <salpynx> I found that the majority of my efforts in esolangs were tending towards silly encodings, which at one level I knew were somewhat trivial, but there was a kernel of something I really wanted to understand. My latest efforts have been in trying to program using Godel numbers and mathematical functions to join them,;I think a stronger understanding
23:42:48 <salpynx> of group theory will help me there
23:43:25 <salpynx> There's something about the simple-translation concept that resonated with me there, but I'm still trying to put it all together
23:44:05 <orbitaldecay> it so happens that unlambda also has a nice monoid structure
23:46:34 <salpynx> I have really wanted to work more with Iota / Jot / and Zot (so I could use non-bf based Godel numbers), but I was struggling to program anything directly using lamdba calculus. Unlambda seemed the obvious gateway to those, but I haven't tried coding anything substantial in it yet
23:50:02 <salpynx> I diverted from picking up low level lambda calculus style languages and have been playing with Bitwise Cyclic-tag, specifically implementing an purely arithmetic version, and trying to figure out how to program usefully in it.
23:50:41 <salpynx> ... then simple-translations distracted me
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01:17:34 <jonathanr> Hello, does anyone used AlphaBeta before?
01:22:04 <int-e> Hmm, doesn't look too interesting
01:24:56 <jonathanr> What languages did you use before?
01:29:57 <shachaf> I used alpha-beta pruning before.
01:38:22 <shachaf> Do you understand PVS/Scout?
01:38:37 <shachaf> I would like to improve my understanding of the whole null window search deal.
01:40:59 <int-e> I could barely expand PVS without looking it up. My first thought was what theorem provers have to do with all this.
01:47:40 <jonathanr> shachaf How did you use Alpha Beta without the use of comments?
01:48:23 <int-e> I did rewrite my cellular automaton update function for Ponder This in assembly though, just for laughs... it ended up 20% faster than the corresponding C, which I think is decent nowadays.
01:48:48 <shachaf> Did you do some sort of fancy SIMD thing?
01:48:50 <zzo38> In assembly langauge for what instruction set?
01:49:23 <int-e> or is that 16% faster...
01:50:02 <int-e> jonathanr: it's not that precise
01:51:12 <jonathanr> Using fractions is more precise than decimal, unless I find a way to write ¯ over the numbers
01:51:18 <int-e> (those are the approximate cycle counts)
01:51:34 <int-e> shachaf: I did think about it but I don't think it'll pay off.
01:52:13 <int-e> shachaf: The proper way to do SIMD is to move it to a GPU, which will be much slower for an individual update but make up for it by massive (compared to CPU) parallelization.
01:53:09 <shachaf> Do you like this? where this = alpha-beta pruning
01:53:22 <HackEso> This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. Nobody likes this.
01:55:49 <int-e> shachaf: The trouble is, 128 bit shifts are not a good fit for Intel's SIMD stuff. With x86_64 you have those cute shld/shrd instructions. To do that in SSE, you need to shift, then use the weird byte-wise shift on top, then shift in the other direction, and combine the results. And I think the CPU can issue twice as many integer operations as SSE instructions.
01:57:34 <shachaf> It's great how you use these tricks to do an exhaustive search of a game tree to depth 13 or however much.
01:57:46 <int-e> (gcc knows how to use the shld/shrd instructions, too. The speedup I have is mostly from better instruction scheduling... I save a few mov instructions as well, but those are essentially free.)
01:58:40 <int-e> Those modern CPUs are such beasts.
02:00:46 <int-e> not %rax; or %rbx, %rax <-- as far as I understand it, this fuses into a single micro-op. My first instinct was to move the `not` instructions further up to get rid of a data dependency and stall... and that made the code slower.
02:02:19 <zzo38> I don't really like the way they do it so much, though. I like MMIX instruction set.
02:02:24 <int-e> And the CPU will reorder instructions on its own as well...
02:03:07 <int-e> Nobody uses MMIX though.
02:04:13 <int-e> "the CPU" is an i7-6850K; I expect Ryzen does similar things. The low power models are less crazy. ARM as well, I suppose.
02:04:27 <int-e> (That is, ARM is less crazy as well, I suppose.)
02:05:26 <zzo38> There is not suitable hardware for MMIX made yet (other than a few FPGA stuff which is incomplete, as far as I know), although there are software implementations of MMIX that can measure the number of cycles.
02:07:46 <int-e> TBH I have not even read the MMIX document, because I hardly see the point.
02:09:22 <zzo38> Well, I think that it is a better instruction set than ARM and some other stuff. However, there is a few things I would have done differently, such as I would have explicit caching only and no implicit caching, and I would also have a "Muxcomp" operator.
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03:51:13 <salpynx> irony; I just realised that I had been "incorrectly" thinking of RBF as a group but actually had the concept of monoid in mind. Turns out RBF _is_ a group and I was making two errors that happened to be the inverse of each other...
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03:52:45 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72251&oldid=72189 * Emerald * (+69) Not associated with DigFill TM
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05:23:47 <esowiki> [[User:Programmer5000]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72252&oldid=52076 * Programmer5000 * (-250) Blanked the page
05:25:39 <esowiki> [[Meta Memes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72253&oldid=52068 * Programmer5000 * (-89)
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06:35:38 <zzo38> Now I think the rendering functions in TeXnicard are fully implemented (preview, render to RGB, and render to separations output format). However, typesetting is not yet implemented, and I may also want to add a few more effects for rendering.
06:36:47 <zzo38> If someone will provide graphics for templates then I can make up the templates involving those graphics.
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14:09:58 <esowiki> [[VTFF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72257&oldid=52077 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3289) /* Notes */
14:16:37 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72258&oldid=72067 * CMinusMinus * (+220) /* JMP */
14:25:28 <kspalaiologos> > The goal is to create a language hard enough so no usable program can be created with it in reasonable time
14:25:30 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:90: error: parse error on input ‘in’
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14:31:47 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72259&oldid=72258 * CMinusMinus * (+53)
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14:45:15 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72260&oldid=72259 * CMinusMinus * (+94) /* CMP */
14:45:24 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72261&oldid=72260 * CMinusMinus * (-1) /* CMP */
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14:48:37 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72262&oldid=72261 * CMinusMinus * (+165)
14:51:19 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72263&oldid=72262 * CMinusMinus * (+1)
14:51:33 <arseniiv> topology is pointless, probability is free and logic is categorical
14:54:22 <arseniiv> or maybe “topology is pointless, logic is categorical, only probability is free”
14:55:53 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72264&oldid=72263 * CMinusMinus * (+462) /* Memory variables */
14:57:18 <esowiki> [[6969 Assembler]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72265&oldid=72264 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Beginners explanation */
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15:36:06 <esowiki> [[Ports]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72266 * AnimaLibera * (+10) create the Ports page
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15:57:05 <esowiki> [[Ports]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72267&oldid=72266 * AnimaLibera * (+93) add categories
16:06:07 <esowiki> [[Ports]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72268&oldid=72267 * AnimaLibera * (+320) Adding stuff
16:07:44 <esowiki> [[Ports]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72269&oldid=72268 * AnimaLibera * (+0) e
16:18:24 <esowiki> [[Ports]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72270&oldid=72269 * AnimaLibera * (+3120) add the Definitions and Execution paragraphs
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16:49:13 <esowiki> [[Ports]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72275&oldid=72274 * AnimaLibera * (+1470) add Hello world
16:52:39 <esowiki> [[Ports]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72276&oldid=72275 * AnimaLibera * (-13) better looking hello world
16:55:23 <esowiki> [[Ports]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72277&oldid=72276 * AnimaLibera * (+485) add Cat
16:56:06 <esowiki> [[Ports]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72278&oldid=72277 * AnimaLibera * (-10) not a Stub anymore I think
16:57:30 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72279&oldid=72248 * AnimaLibera * (+12) add Ports
17:01:49 <esowiki> [[Ports]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72280&oldid=72278 * AnimaLibera * (+107) improve intro
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17:38:58 <Lymia> !ztest alive -.+--)*-1
17:39:08 <Lymia> guess that is well and truly dead :p
17:57:55 <esowiki> [[Esofun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72281&oldid=72230 * Palaiologos * (+26)
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19:14:37 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: so about komalpsz. part of the problem is just that it may have been too ambitious a project for my weak skills back then, so I never finished it. I never even implemented function/subroutine calls, even though that would have made more programs runnable. I'm not sure I understood back then how to implement function calls with parameters and local variables in an interpreter.
19:15:25 <b_jonas> But the bigger problem is that there are parts where I kept modifying the source codes of psz programs to match the interpreter, rather than working harder to implement the syntax that the existing programs used.
19:15:36 <b_jonas> At least I had the sense to mark with comments where I modified the programs, but still.
19:16:27 <b_jonas> For example, many psz programs are missing keywords to mark the end of if/while statements. However, they do always have newlines and indentation determine where each if/while ends, so I should have modified the parser to ignore those end keywords and look at the indentation.
19:17:20 <b_jonas> I also didn't implement print statements that print literal strings and variables in the same statement, even though multiple psz programs use that, instead I just modified those statements in the programs. That's rather silly.
19:17:56 <b_jonas> In the end there are only like five programs that the interpreter can actually run.
19:18:23 <b_jonas> The coding style of the interpreter sucks, but then, so did the coding style of every program that I wrote back then.
19:19:18 <b_jonas> myname: It's an interpreter. (1) You don't want to know. (2) If you really want to know, "http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/psz-snapshot.tgz" .
19:22:59 <b_jonas> also because of this, I never really did anything with the results of the runs
19:23:26 <Lymia> What even is this?
19:24:18 <Lymia> This looks foreign language but not *extordinarily* esoteric
19:26:47 <b_jonas> Lymia: it's about KöMaL's mail-in programming competition between 2001-09 and 2003-01, to which the organizers released example solutions (after the deadline) in this nonsense language with no consistent syntax rules,
19:27:32 <b_jonas> presumably because if they released solutions in a production language that people can just get a compiler for (like pascal or C; they did occasionally did that for a few tasks), anyone could run their example solution and see that it's broken.
19:28:28 <b_jonas> So I decided to try to run those example solutions again to see that they are indeed completely broken, darn the obfuscated language they're written it, and indeed found that at least the example solution for I.10. is broken.
19:28:35 <b_jonas> But I never really got far with it.
19:29:09 <b_jonas> the tasks and solutions are linked from https://www.komal.hu/verseny/korabbi.h.shtml with the relevant dates,
19:29:23 <Lymia> language barriers yay
19:29:45 <b_jonas> plus the tasks are also linked from https://www.komal.hu/verseny/korabbi.e.shtml in English translation
19:30:05 <b_jonas> the solutions aren't, but at least the source codes for the solutions shouldn't require translation, even if the explanations do
19:30:46 <b_jonas> at least one of the early solutions that they released in Pascal is broken too by the way, which may have discouraged them from releasing real runnable programs
19:31:42 <b_jonas> and I don't mean broken as in it has a few portability problems or it fails in some weird corner case, but that the program source code is entirely not powerful enough to do what the problem asked for
19:42:47 <b_jonas> Note that this was back between 2001-09 and 2003-01. Me and everyone else were very young back then. And it's not like they had much money to pay to the college students that they roped in to write most of those problems and solutions.
19:43:14 <b_jonas> Believe me, the programs I write these days are better. They're not perfect of course, but they're buggy in more advanced way,
19:43:25 <b_jonas> and I managed to write larger programs that are still usable.
19:44:15 <b_jonas> Plus the internet was young, there weren't many opportunities to learn good practices from others yet.
19:45:56 <b_jonas> Also KöMaL had a homepage where they listed a copy of those programs and solutions (besides the printed journal), but it only added a forum to the homepage in 2003-11 apparently, so I couldn't really talk to many people about those example solutions either.
19:51:27 <gnu-nobody> b_jonas: isn't I.10 just a simple convex hull?
19:52:12 <b_jonas> gnu-nobody: it's supposed to be, yes. but the example solution is broken.
19:53:13 <gnu-nobody> Also as far as I can see the solution is using an O(n^2) sort
19:59:56 <b_jonas> gnu-nobody: the larger problem is that the solution usually runs into a division by zero
20:05:38 <gnu-nobody> if you're talking about sorting the stuff by atan2 (I didn't read the code actually) there is a near-trivial way to bypass that
20:08:23 <b_jonas> gnu-nobody: yes, there are better ways to write that program. that's not the question.
20:09:14 <Lymia> Algorithms code is nasty in general.
20:09:17 <Lymia> So easy to fuck everything up.
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21:31:29 <Lymia> I'm tempted to give BFJoust one last spurt of life before I clean my hands of this. :p
21:31:34 <Lymia> A last attempt at an evolver.
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21:44:02 <zzo38> I am still work on TeXnicard and on the card set that I was making with it. So far there is only one conspiracy, but I can add more. So far only one card has flavor text, but I can hope to add more; do you have some ideas? I also wanted to add one card is the otyugh, too. And, some idea of cards I had but do not know the name to put. And other thing might also be had, to improve the draft, including to adjust rarity perhaps.
21:44:48 <b_jonas> masterkratos: nobody else wanted to run the categories like small only or all levels, so DeeR just got a free world record there.
21:45:04 <b_jonas> glitched any% and glitched jackpot has other runs at least
21:45:29 <b_jonas> also there were like anniversaries as an excuse
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00:58:32 <lambdabot> LOWI 150050Z AUTO 08005KT 050V110 9999 -SHRA FEW011 SCT013 BKN015 10/08 Q1010
00:59:00 <int-e> light rain showers, hmm
01:02:11 <lambdabot> KOAK 150053Z 29013KT 10SM FEW016 SCT023 SCT033 BKN180 19/12 A3011 RMK AO2 SLP195 T01940122
01:15:35 <shachaf> Too bad I'm indoors all day.
01:15:51 <int-e> well I imagine it's warmer during the day :P
01:16:19 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Thu May 14 18:16:15 2020
01:16:34 <lambdabot> KAPA 150053Z 11008KT 10SM FEW055 BKN110 14/06 A2999 RMK AO2 SLP118 T01440061
01:17:25 <int-e> Never mind, I totally misplaced KOAK on the map.
01:20:01 <int-e> I think the "SH" is a lie, this is steady rain. (And I have a hard time believing that the 6km or so distance from the airport make a difference)
01:20:45 <int-e> I'd argue against the - as well, but I don't really know what the standard for that is :)
01:22:22 <int-e> But maybe it was correct 2h ago.
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04:11:23 <zzo38> Would someone help with a set of Magic: the Gathering cards that I am making?
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04:33:09 <int-e> shachaf: So I did give SSE a try; it came surprisingly close to the plain integer code (23 cycles vs. 21) after tweaking the assembly generated by g++ (which added loads to and from the xmm registers to each loop iteration for no good reason)
04:34:06 <int-e> clang fails to assign more than 8 XMM registers.
04:35:03 <int-e> or maybe it's something else; it complains with opt.cc:236:9: error: couldn't allocate output register for constraint 'x'
04:35:11 <shachaf> You're using SIMD intrinsics with a fixed number of registers and it's still loading and storing all the time?
04:35:26 <int-e> I'm using inline assembly
04:35:46 <int-e> because I wanted to be fair ... and the integer code is using inline assembly
04:39:24 <int-e> It's not the number of registers. clang doesn't like this: asm("" : "+x" (v));
04:39:52 <int-e> (which is supposed to assign an XMM input/output register for v)
04:40:36 <int-e> clang version 9.0.1-12
04:43:15 <zzo38> Does it work in GCC?
04:44:12 <shachaf> clang 9 seems to be happy with that line out of context according to godbolt.org.
04:46:10 <int-e> void test() { unsigned __int128 v; asm("" : "+x" (v)); }
04:47:24 <int-e> I guess the type matters.
04:47:49 <zzo38> Check that the generated code is correct, and then file a bug report for whichever compiler is wrong (possibly both).
05:21:02 <int-e> funny, if I change that to "+x" (*(__m128d*)&v) it's accepted in clang++ and faster than before in g++
05:21:44 <int-e> also funny: -fheinous-gnu-extensions
05:23:21 <zzo38> What does that do exactly?
05:24:02 <int-e> it's a pretty silly way to cast a value while still being an lvalue
05:24:51 <zzo38> I just found out now that clang has a \p escape for making Pascal strings, apparently.
05:27:42 <int-e> shachaf: so that gets it down to the 23 cycles without hacking the assembly code, and g++ and clang++ end up being equally fast (unsurprisingly, since the only thing they really add is a loop counter)
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05:59:53 <zzo38> I don't generaly use inline assembly codes in C, because then it would be dependent on the computer, and a program is written in C to avoid that so that it can work on many computers.
06:20:57 <int-e> Actually I have no plans of using this code.
06:22:54 <int-e> The version I actually used was pure C(++ makes no real difference) and about 30% slower... and more than fast enough.
06:34:00 <shachaf> zzo38: What about SIMD intrinsics?
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06:52:02 <kspalaiologos> 46.43.2.108 <- someone has mirrored the wiki, including the cert lol
06:52:33 <int-e> that's fizzie's thing
06:52:58 <int-e> actually, esolangs.org has address 46.43.2.108
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09:41:43 <rain1> how is the group theory approcah going?
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09:45:49 <HackEso> HackEso is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike HackEgo.
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10:15:57 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72287&oldid=71780 * RocketRace * (+2251) Document changes from version 1.1
10:16:36 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72288&oldid=72287 * RocketRace * (+35) Version number!
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11:52:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:ARGENTOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72289&oldid=50222 * A * (+217)
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12:22:31 <Arcorann> Anyone ever try to implement the TPK algorithm in an esoteric language?
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12:36:13 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72290&oldid=71366 * Palaiologos * (+602) v1.3.7 release notes
12:44:54 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72291&oldid=72290 * Palaiologos * (+195) labels => bflabels, discourage constant numeric label usage
12:50:07 <esowiki> [[Ports]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72292&oldid=72284 * AnimaLibera * (+4325) add special ports
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13:03:29 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72295&oldid=72291 * Palaiologos * (+1978) derle deprecation notice
13:06:01 <esowiki> [[Ports]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72296&oldid=72293 * AnimaLibera * (+70) clarify the notion of mysterious code in the Shared bit buffer definition
13:09:05 <esowiki> [[Ports]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72297&oldid=72296 * AnimaLibera * (+163) add an intro the the special ports section
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13:12:16 <esowiki> [[Ports]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72299&oldid=72298 * AnimaLibera * (+28) even better style for the special ports section
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13:43:12 <fungot> kspalaiologos: hci is a huge pita :p http://rafb.net/ fnord the clicks are too far apart to be double clicks links on mirc. :p
13:44:17 <fungot> kspalaiologos: works fine fnord you can see precisely where errors occur in particularly hairy macro interactions. continuations as a y combinator. i assumed it was a sake or something.
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15:48:19 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72317&oldid=72316 * Palaiologos * (-171) Move it to the public domain!
15:51:23 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72318&oldid=72317 * Palaiologos * (+511) Sierpinski triangles example
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17:14:18 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Enter Your USERNAME * New user account
17:19:58 <HackEso> olist 1202: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
17:27:04 <HackEso> olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
17:27:16 <b_jonas> I could make the olist script print the url to the strip
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17:41:48 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72319&oldid=72318 * Palaiologos * (+1402) constpp, v1.3.8
17:47:49 <b_jonas> oh yeah, I should use the @ command for that
17:47:56 <HackEso> doesthis: /hackenv/bin/nur: line 2: work: command not found
17:48:00 <HackEso> doesthiswork: olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
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18:16:47 <orbitaldecay> After reading http://nsl.com/misc/papers/The%20Theory%20of%20Concatenative%20Combinators.htm, I suspect there is a single combinator base similar to iota
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18:58:55 <esowiki> [[Bias]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72323&oldid=72322 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Infinite 1-char Cat */
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20:26:54 <esowiki> [[Bias]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72329&oldid=72328 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* Hello, World! */
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20:45:51 <esowiki> [[2iota]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72334&oldid=23599 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) /* External resources */ wayback
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23:07:40 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Pico]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72340 * Salpynx * (+4567) PF candidate, or stand-alone language?
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00:44:55 <esowiki> [[Procedure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72342&oldid=71193 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+106) /* Memory model */
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01:10:09 <zzo38> Conspiracy of the World {-} Conspiracy ;; Double agenda ;; Non-basic permanents with either chosen name are world.
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02:21:02 <esowiki> [[Full 0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72343&oldid=72339 * LegionMammal978 * (-6) fixed link
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02:35:14 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Untitled 4]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72344 * Zzo38 * (+1764) Created page with "The program is a list of commands, with spaces in between. Each command is either passive or active. Comments are allowed, and start with a semicolon and end at a line break...."
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02:44:07 <b_jonas> is there a catholic saint who is often depicted with an onion?
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03:19:29 <Antebrationist> What is the most aesthetically pleasing esolang you've seen so far?
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03:46:20 <zzo38> What I do want to figure out though is who can help with my software project.
03:50:17 <int-e> Antebrationist: piet and trajedy for different reasons
04:01:37 <shachaf> I have a parser with this API: void provide_input(Parser *parser, char *input, size_t input_size); void parse(Parser *parser, Token *tokens, size_t tokens_cap);
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04:02:32 <shachaf> It sets parser->processing_input until the input is processed, and returns the number of tokens in parser->num_tokens.
04:02:57 <shachaf> And returns errors in parser->error, I suppose.
04:03:17 <shachaf> Oh, I forgot, provide_input also take a flag to indicate whether the input is followed by EOF.
04:03:38 <shachaf> Is there a nicer way to express it?
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04:10:20 <zzo38> Perhaps the return type should not be void, because it might be an error
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04:20:59 <doesthiswork> Do you really need it to take any parameters? can't they all be global variables instead?
04:23:36 <shachaf> zzo38: You can check parser.error.
04:23:58 <shachaf> doesthiswork: Doesn't that just make a worse API?
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05:15:23 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72345&oldid=72288 * RocketRace * (+3) Fix tables
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06:44:39 <fungot> Antebrationist: i guess it'd work. you need to add a thing to its front. you enter elements on the stack
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07:31:04 <fungot> kspalaiologos: about fnord for connection from filename...' or ' patrolling' etc. are defined in terms of memory
07:31:12 <fungot> kspalaiologos: http://www.norvig.com/ fnord the integer fnord of a linearization of the path datatype. if a key is the shift of that key, so i guess
07:31:13 <HackEso> ?fungot? No such file or directory
07:31:18 <fungot> kspalaiologos: maybe you should replace it at some time i've been viewing a russian midget sodomize a housecat!? friggin twelve rounds of reading in files drscheme seems rather fnord :)
07:31:19 <HackEso> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
07:31:36 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =.
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07:43:08 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: why? is the future bfbot using a different prefix?
07:43:40 <kspalaiologos> because I lost hope in humanity after my HDD failed and ONLY the code for the new bfbot has been lost
07:46:27 <b_jonas> anyway, you can change it, just edit the command in both HackEso and fungоt
07:46:47 <b_jonas> well obviously there's no future bfbot yet. that's why it's called future bfbot
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08:01:46 <esowiki> [[HydraLoop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72346&oldid=72085 * Zzo38 * (+913) Computation class
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09:29:07 <zzo38> Rename {U} Enchantment - Aura ;; Enchant permanent ;; As ~ enters the battlefield, choose a name. ;; Enchanted permanent's name is the chosen name.
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09:37:56 <tromp> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23201685
09:39:26 <tromp> A functional Busy Beaver
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15:23:41 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72347&oldid=72320 * Palaiologos * (-1009) shl/shr, remove legacy stuff
15:26:41 <esowiki> [[Picofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72348&oldid=71572 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Picofuck project */
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15:34:53 <esowiki> [[Algebraic Programming Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72349&oldid=71930 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) /* Custom operators */
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15:41:23 <esowiki> [[Brainfunc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72350&oldid=70323 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) /* Functions */
15:47:47 <esowiki> [[DINAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72351&oldid=72102 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) /* Branching */
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16:24:07 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72352&oldid=72331 * Palaiologos * (+56) add asm2bf (it's been missing?)
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20:02:35 <imode> I feel like I'm not big brained enough for languages like PostScript.
20:04:44 <imode> I have a concatenative language in the "works" based on pattern matching.
20:04:59 <imode> but figuring out how to build things like basic data structures is interesting enough...
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20:07:26 <zzo38> PostScript has some data structures though, such as arrays and dictionaries.
20:07:39 <imode> I'm looking to build mine out of base primitives.
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20:07:55 <zzo38> OK. What base primitives do you have, though?
20:08:24 <imode> maybe I should demo this..
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20:08:53 <imode> https://hastebin.com/xexubehufu.txt
20:09:37 <imode> so this language is based off of pattern matching. every "tick", we scan through the input string from left to right to find a pattern that matches. you have your basic operators, like arithmetic and logical operators.
20:09:49 <imode> along with `define`, which lets you define new patterns.
20:11:33 <imode> you can consider this entire file the input string. there are a couple of basic manipulation operators, like dup, swap and drop, along with apply, which "flattens" any list. there are also `r` variants, which look to the right of them instead of the left.
20:12:24 <imode> you could theoretically build everything, I guess, from dup, swap, drop, apply, quote/cons/whatever and pattern matching.
20:12:32 <imode> including arithmetic ops.
20:14:04 <imode> the base operators don't apply to things like other operators, only to lists and primitive "data".
20:34:14 <zzo38> (Although I don't really like hastebin, which serves HTML instead of plain text, even with the ".txt" extension and even if you add a Accept header to indicate that you want plain text. But I have figured out how to get plain text. Remove ".txt" and add "documents/" before the filename, and then it will be JSON; the property called "data" contains the text. It isn't as good as real plain text, though.)
20:55:36 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72353&oldid=72311 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+62) /* Memory */
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21:52:48 <fizzie> zzo38: Add "/raw/" in front of the document ID, and remove the extension.
21:52:53 <fizzie> zzo38: As in, https://hastebin.com/raw/xexubehufu
21:53:16 <zzo38> O, that works better.
21:53:59 <zzo38> (I don't know why it has JSON then, since it seems to contain nothing except the data and the filename, which seems to be redundant.)
22:00:38 <imode> you can also hit the "raw" button.
22:02:15 <fizzie> Though you need to execute scripts for that button to work.
22:02:21 <fizzie> (I'm not sure why it's not just a link.)
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22:20:53 <arseniiv_> I think about error recovery in parsing and I get strange ideas
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22:23:50 <zzo38> What kind of strange ideas?
22:25:19 <arseniiv> b_jonas mentioned things akin to using semicolons to recover from a broken statement, but having a decently recursive grammar, you can’t for example call reasonable searching for the earliest one to come next, you need at least account for curly braces first, as something like `if (incorrect) { x = 2 ;` is a worse candidate than `if (incorrect) { x = 2; }`
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22:27:58 <arseniiv> so that gives me ideas about fixed prefix and suffix for some rules which should match to consider a parse as a faulty variant of that rule and none alternative to it when a choice can be made
22:28:48 <arseniiv> but this looks like a hard thing to do in LTR top-down parsing which I try to stick with
22:29:26 <arseniiv> even if for example we precompute possible n-token prefixes and suffixes of each nonterminal, what good would it give here
22:30:35 <arseniiv> but I think the idea for searching the first “reasonable” semicolon can be fleshed out in some other way
22:33:04 <arseniiv> (I suppose annotating these kinds of “faulty” grammars in some special way to make such guesses of “typoed parses” possible—I just don’t know yet which annotations should there be)
22:37:44 <arseniiv> the first idea was to add a ?-like “quantifier”, let’s say P↑, with meaning “if you fail in parsing P, consider that a typoed variant of P and go forth as usual”, but this is too bad. Then I thought about adding an atomic parser ↓ to mark up to which part you may fail (as semicolons, which I used when pondering that, come last), but this works bad with LTR)
22:38:38 <arseniiv> I think I should have googled error recovery beforehand, I still haven’t
22:41:16 <arseniiv> okay there are some search results. Definitely should have read up first
22:42:52 <arseniiv> ah, yes, and I forgot that I mentioned error productions before and even noted this would be a good start
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22:55:47 <b_jonas> atslash: I specifically said that that's why you need to design your grammar such that it has such markers, and most modern languages aren't like that, they allow embedding anything in anything. python doesn't let you put statements inside expressions, so you can't have a semicolon inside a statement.
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01:42:15 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72354&oldid=72345 * RocketRace * (+162) New since version X
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05:47:09 <zzo38> Conspiracy of Conspiracies {-} Conspiracy ;; Hidden agenda ;; Conspiracies with the chosen name lose all copiable abilities.
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09:02:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Paviad * New user account
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09:10:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72355&oldid=72105 * Paviad * (+177)
09:11:18 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72356&oldid=72355 * Paviad * (+52)
09:11:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72357&oldid=72356 * Paviad * (-15)
09:25:35 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yeah yeah but I see languages like C# still try to make something, like, if I’m not mistaken, this flag enum: https://github.com/dotnet/roslyn/blob/master/src/Compilers/CSharp/Portable/Parser/LanguageParser.cs#L56 seem related to this kind of markers. Though I haven’t yet read how are they used there
09:26:08 <arseniiv> (and in C#, you can embed statements in expressions via lambda/delegate expressions, at least)
09:26:56 <arseniiv> (though I can’t remember other such statement-inside-expression constructs there)
09:27:05 <esowiki> [[COW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72358&oldid=69427 * Paviad * (+96) Added a reference to a github COW compiler in C#
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09:37:08 <arseniiv> I see there is a manual ignoring of `}` when parsing a namespace, so that a common case of an extra `}` wouldn’t make half of code seem to be after a namespace ends, where nothing can occur except other namespaces
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09:38:46 <arseniiv> would be good if it was automatable via a kind of user-specified meta on the grammar. There, a parser is all code (due to performance reasons, I guess) so that’s not evident
10:17:26 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you could still make something sane where there are multiple kinds of braces or semicolons, but people don't want their code to look ugly or be full of what looks like unnecessary punctuation. I'll have to think more about what can be done with this.
10:24:26 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I’ll contemplate later, how powerful error productions (productions which give markedly incorrect parse but are deemed by the grammar designer to occur often in the source with common errors/typos; recovery is trivial as they are normal productions, just with special semantics) may be. If they can make a decent recovery all by themselves, even if it would be needed a large quantity of them, I’d be tempted to use them and see if their addit
10:24:26 <arseniiv> ion to a grammar can be made easier for people, esp. if there may be a need to add many productions differing very little from each other
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12:05:04 <esowiki> [[Alphuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72359&oldid=62062 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) cat + link
12:12:36 <esowiki> [[Dimensifuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72360&oldid=40937 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+96) /* External resources */ link notices
12:13:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dimensifuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72361&oldid=10201 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45)
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12:40:00 <esowiki> [[NULL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72363&oldid=69531 * YamTokTpaFa * (+16) +Template:Wayback. TBH in what exact year was the page created...?
12:59:39 <esowiki> [[XS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72364&oldid=71031 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) /* See also */
13:00:54 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/TemplateWikipediaXML]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72365 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) Created page with "[[Wikipedia:XML|]]"
13:01:17 <esowiki> [[XS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72366&oldid=72364 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33)
13:01:25 <esowiki> [[XS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72367&oldid=72366 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4)
13:01:35 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/TemplateWikipediaXML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72368&oldid=72365 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-21) Blanked the page
13:03:19 <esowiki> [[User talk:Zzo38]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72369&oldid=71419 * YamTokTpaFa * (+387) /* I'd like to learn more about INCAL next. */ new section
13:14:28 <esowiki> [[Increment]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72370&oldid=61488 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+100) /* Partial Implementation */ cats
13:16:29 <esowiki> [[Maentwrog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72371&oldid=20197 * YamTokTpaFa * (+184) /* External resources */ GOTO GITHUB!
13:17:05 <esowiki> [[Maentwrog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72372&oldid=72371 * YamTokTpaFa * (-34) /* External resources */ Oops, pretty embarrassment.
13:33:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Maentwrog]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72373 * YamTokTpaFa * (+1555) Created page with "== This language can actually emulate [[brainfuck]] without input == Here is how. The following code assumes <code>long</code> is 4-byte. #Execute this at first: <code>: init..."
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13:48:42 <esowiki> [[Kitanai]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72374&oldid=70823 * YamTokTpaFa * (+68) Please, can you please add at least a caategory "Languages"?
13:53:40 <esowiki> [[Hanabi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72375&oldid=56707 * YamTokTpaFa * (+67) Y NO CATEGORIES!
13:59:02 <esowiki> [[Maentwrog]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72376&oldid=72372 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+39) wayback
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14:00:34 <esowiki> [[Kai]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72377&oldid=46141 * YamTokTpaFa * (+396) Seeing the desc, may we ought to delete this page.... This is not really esoteric at all....
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14:10:49 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72378&oldid=72353 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-6) /* Builtins */
14:11:30 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72379&oldid=72378 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* While loop function */
14:11:45 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72380&oldid=72379 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* 'Not' function (e.g. !x) */
14:12:04 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72381&oldid=72380 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+43) /* Function definitions */
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17:11:49 <esowiki> [[Functional deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72382&oldid=52327 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+64)
17:12:13 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72383&oldid=70417 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) /* External resources */ total
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19:27:53 <esowiki> [[Functional deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72384&oldid=72382 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+109) cats
19:30:31 <esowiki> [[Talk:Last ReSort]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72385&oldid=52177 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49)
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19:33:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zero Instruction Set Computer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72386&oldid=46393 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+54)
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21:06:19 <esowiki> [[Bias]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72387&oldid=72341 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+240) /* */
21:06:30 <esowiki> [[Bias]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72388&oldid=72387 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1)
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05:23:19 <HackEso> 1/1:4rn4//The 4RN4 has two false goals. \ nostril//Nostril is a common Québécois greeting. \ partial order//A partial order is just a small thin skeletal category. \ il//An il is a cohelix of pper wire. \ norm//norm is the most confusingly named function in C++
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10:28:08 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72389&oldid=71390 * TwilightSparkle * (+33)
10:28:34 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72390&oldid=72389 * TwilightSparkle * (+5) /* Push 0 */
10:58:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:HydraLoop]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72391 * TwilightSparkle * (+235) Created page with "== HydraLoop == HydraLoop? Does this has something to do with [[https://conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4487|HydraLoop]]? ~~~~"
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11:56:14 <esowiki> [[Talk:HydraLoop]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72392&oldid=72391 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) fix link
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12:01:08 <esowiki> [[HydraLoop]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72393&oldid=72346 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) total; cats on bottom
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13:13:23 <int-e> `le/rn that/"That" is the less controversial twin of "this".
13:13:24 <HackEso> Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
13:13:29 <int-e> `le/rn that//"That" is the less controversial twin of "this".
13:13:32 <HackEso> Learned 'that': "That" is the less controversial twin of "this".
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13:32:11 <esowiki> [[User talk:InfiniteDonuts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72394&oldid=72192 * InfiniteDonuts * (+203)
14:09:02 <esowiki> [[Bias]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72395&oldid=72388 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+644) /* Turing-completeness proof */
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15:09:07 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72396 * Orby * (+1435) Initial page
15:11:15 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72397&oldid=72396 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5)
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15:22:15 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72398&oldid=72397 * Orby * (+13) /* Commands */
15:23:19 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72399&oldid=72398 * Orby * (-72) /* Translation to Underload */
15:27:02 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72400&oldid=72399 * Orby * (+81)
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15:38:34 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72401&oldid=72400 * Orby * (+119) /* Translation to Underload */
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19:08:59 <esowiki> [[Self-modifying Turing machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72402&oldid=70588 * Hakerh400 * (+0) /* Card structure */
19:17:03 <esowiki> [[HashHell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72403&oldid=54363 * Voltage2007 * (+68) backticks
19:29:16 <esowiki> [[Clip/Examples]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72404&oldid=42092 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) link to Clip
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19:33:46 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72405&oldid=71755 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-784)
19:33:57 <esowiki> [[Callable]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72406 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+965) Created page with "'''Callable''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Syntax== Each line is function calls in the form of <code>F()</code>, <code>F(X)</code>, <code>F(X, Y)</cod..."
19:35:16 <esowiki> [[Brainflop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72407&oldid=72161 * ElectricWah * (+194) /* Example Programs */
19:36:52 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72408&oldid=72336 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) /* Languages */
19:38:39 <esowiki> [[User:ElectricWah]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72409 * ElectricWah * (+40) Created page with "ima cool coder who sometimes does things"
19:45:00 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72410&oldid=72352 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* C */ + [[Callable]]
19:45:43 <esowiki> [[Callable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72411&oldid=72406 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32)
19:45:58 <esowiki> [[Callable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72412&oldid=72411 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) /* External resources */
19:51:28 <esowiki> [[Flatland]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72413&oldid=58853 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Turing-completeness */ link
20:00:07 <esowiki> [[Procedure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72414&oldid=72342 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* See also */
20:00:24 <esowiki> [[Pure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72415&oldid=71526 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* See also */
20:00:32 <esowiki> [[Pure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72416&oldid=72415 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* See Also */ cat
20:03:27 <esowiki> [[Musical notes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72417&oldid=41743 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* See Also */ cat
20:05:06 <esowiki> [[Bodyfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72418&oldid=46423 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+105) /* External Links */ cats
20:08:27 <esowiki> [[Pi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72419&oldid=63874 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+39)
20:10:06 <esowiki> [[Template:PageWIP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72420 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+133) For when the page is WIP but the lang isn't
20:10:28 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/PageWIP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72421 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) Created page with "{{PageWIP}}"
20:10:36 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/PageWIP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72422&oldid=72421 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-11) Blanked the page
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20:25:52 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72423&oldid=72401 * Orby * (-233)
20:28:28 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72424&oldid=72423 * Orby * (+34) /* Commands */
20:29:34 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72425&oldid=72424 * Orby * (-2) /* Translation to Underload */ Fixing bug
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20:37:35 <esowiki> [[Circles]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72426 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+429) Created page with "{{PageWIP}} '''Circles''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. It works by moving from circle to circle and performing operations on them. ==Documentation== The..."
20:37:45 <esowiki> [[Circles]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72427&oldid=72426 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12)
20:39:34 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72428&oldid=72425 * Orby * (-32) /* Commands */
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20:40:46 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72429&oldid=72428 * Orby * (-16) /* Commands */
20:42:02 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72430&oldid=72429 * Orby * (-77) /* Translation to Underload */
20:42:46 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72431&oldid=72430 * Orby * (+9) /* Commands */
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20:59:36 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72432&oldid=72408 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+63) /* Languages */
21:00:03 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72433&oldid=72410 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* C */ + [[Circles]]
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21:10:49 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72434&oldid=72431 * Orby * (-140)
21:11:09 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72435&oldid=72434 * Orby * (+1) /* Commands */
21:13:22 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72436&oldid=72435 * Orby * (-2) /* Commands */
21:14:16 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72437&oldid=72436 * Orby * (-4) /* Translation to Underload */
21:18:34 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72438&oldid=72437 * Orby * (+2) /* Translation to Underload */ Fixing bug
21:27:38 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72439&oldid=72438 * Orby * (+160)
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21:37:16 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72440&oldid=72238 * Orby * (+232)
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21:45:09 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72441&oldid=72439 * Ais523 * (+19) /* Translation from Underload */ here's your ('''e''') translation
21:48:36 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72442&oldid=72441 * Ais523 * (+376) your section headers were backwards; fix cats, mention that this is a TCness proof
21:50:06 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72443&oldid=72442 * Ais523 * (+64) /* Translation from Underload into Clementine */ italics
22:18:12 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72444&oldid=72443 * Orby * (+502) /* Commands */
22:20:55 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72445&oldid=72444 * Orby * (+145)
22:21:28 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72446&oldid=72445 * Orby * (+2)
22:23:44 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72447&oldid=72446 * Orby * (-34) /* Clementine as a stack based language */
22:24:07 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72448&oldid=72447 * Orby * (+6) /* Clementine as a stack based language */
22:24:49 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72449&oldid=72448 * Ais523 * (+22) Underload was actually predated in this respect by at least one non-esolang (!)
22:28:11 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72450&oldid=72449 * Orby * (+52) /* Clementine as a stack based language */
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22:59:19 <ais523> orbitaldecay: hmm, I'm not sure we've /proved/ Clementine TC yet
22:59:33 <ais523> because Underload programs allow arbitrary literals, and we need to prove that those can be constructed in Clementine
23:00:21 <ais523> specifically we need to show translations for (a) (~) (^) (:) (!) (*), once you have those you can create arbitrary literals via a'ing and *'ing them
23:00:41 <ais523> at the moment only a ~ ^ : ! * have translations, not the quoted version
23:00:44 <ais523> (you also need a translation for () but it just translates to ())
23:03:10 <ais523> hmm… are we sure that https://esolangs.org/wiki/Functional_deadfish is unusable for programming?
23:03:16 <ais523> it isn't obvious to me that it's sub-TC
23:03:46 <ais523> although, functions can't define other functions, which makes it more likely that it's a push-down automaton than anything else
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23:07:32 <esowiki> [[User talk:InfiniteDonuts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72451&oldid=72394 * ElectricWah * (+196)
23:09:57 <esowiki> [[Functional deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72452&oldid=72384 * Ais523 * (+653) I am not convinced this is unusable for programming
23:12:45 <orbitaldecay> ais523: I was just thinking the same thing. But I suspect it's possible because we can cat arbitrary (e) and (k)
23:14:04 <ais523> yes, I believe what you have to do is to take the definitions of a, ~, ^ and friends in terms of () (e) (k) k
23:14:19 <ais523> then use the typical Underload constant construction tricks to join all the e's and k's together using Underload operations
23:15:24 <ais523> on an unrelated note, something that's been bothering me for years and I was just reminded of: what's the pun in "beta-Juliet"? it's from a series of languages which are named after car manufacturers
23:15:30 <ais523> but unlike the others, I don't get that one at all
23:15:38 <ais523> even if I try to pronounce it with an American accent
23:15:55 <ais523> oh, just got it, it isn't pronunciation at all
23:16:33 <ais523> not fair having one of the puns work on a different principle from the others :-(
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23:21:04 <esowiki> [[Maentwrog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72453&oldid=72376 * Ais523 * (+126) former dead link is no longer dead; fix hatnote; explain the history of this page
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23:29:52 <orbitaldecay> ais523: isn't it trivial to convert X to (X)? Just follow each clementine command in X with a*
23:31:49 <orbitaldecay> Or rather, follow () (k) and (e) with a* and replace k with (k)*
23:32:54 <ais523> I think there's a boundary problem
23:32:59 <ais523> maybe you just need to put an extra () at the start though
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23:37:13 <orbitaldecay> Now I want to reduce it to three commands. I saw M^ but the term rewriting semantics are a nightmare.
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23:38:35 <ais523> orbitaldecay: right, it's an "artificial"/"constructed" combinator that basically exists just to dump all the other combinators you need onto the stack so that you can combine them
23:38:54 <ais523> then ():^ is interesting in a different way, because it's TC but it isn't (as far as I know) a simple translation of Underload
23:40:40 <orbitaldecay> Yeah, ():^ is my favorite. I wanted to start moving away from quoting to "pure" concatenation
23:41:38 <ais523> the "purest" version of Underload has 12 commands, I think: (a) (~) (^) (:) (!) (*) a ~ ^ : ! *
23:41:58 <ais523> although obviously five of the six unquoted commands are redundant because you only really need ^
23:42:02 <ais523> and can use it to unquote the others
23:42:51 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/7 was a language inspired by that line of thought, although it kind-of became a mess in some ways
23:43:53 <zzo38> warning: passing argument 1 of 'f != 0 ? &compare_left : &compare_right' discards 'const' qualifier from pointer target type I didn't write "f != 0 ? &compare_left : &compare_right", although what I did write is equivalent to that.
23:44:01 <orbitaldecay> yes, clementine started out with a bunch of quoted operators and ^, which I paired down to () (e) (k) and ^, and then realized that replacing ^ with k makes the term rewriting semantics nicer
23:44:44 <orbitaldecay> I'm going to write up the translations for the quoted underload commands and then read up on 7
23:45:54 <ais523> I think one of the core goals of 7 turned out in retrospect to be a mistake (which was that you can write a literal containing any sequence of commands, not merely something equivalent; Underload doesn't have this property because you can't write a literal containing unmatched parentheses)
23:46:41 <zzo38> Another esolang with some relation to 7 and Underload is EsoPost, which uses marks on the stack
23:52:37 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72454&oldid=72450 * Orby * (+498) /* Translation from Underload into Clementine */ Adding translations for Underload command literals
23:55:49 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72455&oldid=72454 * Orby * (-102) /* Translation from Underload into Clementine */
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00:00:00 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72456&oldid=72455 * Orby * (+36) /* Translation from Underload into Clementine */ Bolding Clementine commands
00:01:32 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72457&oldid=72456 * Orby * (+4) Bolding clementine commands for readability
00:01:52 <ais523> orbitaldecay: I haven't checked in detail, but it doesn't look wrong, at least
00:03:25 <zzo38> Here is a custom Magic: the Gathering card that I found in a box with other card games: Sad Jester {UU} Creature - Human (0/1) ;; {WB}, {T}: Add {UU}.
00:04:16 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72458&oldid=72457 * Orby * (+6) /* Translation from Clementine into Underload */ Bolding more clementine commands
00:05:49 <ais523> zzo38: that doesn't look like a very powerful card
00:06:54 <zzo38> Yes, it doesn't look that good to me either
00:10:17 <shachaf> Maybe it's better in the presence of other cards, like Festering Newt/Bogbrew Witch/Bubbling Cauldron.
00:10:55 <b_jonas> there are creatures that tap to convert color, but I think they take just one mana as input
00:11:13 <zzo38> Yes. Although I looked and found a lot more custom cards too.
00:11:27 <b_jonas> and some might take {1}... let me search
00:11:51 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Pico]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72459&oldid=72340 * Salpynx * (+5162) now with full brainfuck IO support in 2 symbols. My brain does hurt now.
00:12:52 <b_jonas> ``` card-by-name "Ceta Disciple" # a search finds a few
00:12:53 <HackEso> Ceta Disciple \ U \ Creature -- Merfolk Wizard \ 1/1 \ {R}, {T}: Target creature gets +2/+0 until end of turn. \ {G}, {T}: Add one mana of any color. \ AP-C
00:12:59 <b_jonas> `card-by-name Fire Sprites
00:13:00 <HackEso> Fire Sprites \ 1G \ Creature -- Faerie \ 1/1 \ Flying \ {G}, {T}: Add {R}. \ LE-C, ME3-C
00:13:06 <HackEso> Helionaut \ 2W \ Creature -- Human Soldier \ 1/2 \ Flying \ {1}, {T}: Add one mana of any color. \ AP-C
00:13:18 <b_jonas> `card-by-name Neera Disciple
00:13:20 <zzo38> Some seem a little bit too powerful, some seem a bit too less powerful, and some of them have effects that won't work or that are unclear. One of them says if it is tapped at the end of your turn, shuffle it into your library. It should probably be something like "At the beginning of each end step, if ~ is tapped, shuffle it into its owner's library."
00:14:23 <b_jonas> `card-by-name Viridian Acolyte
00:14:24 <HackEso> Viridian Acolyte \ G \ Creature -- Elf Shaman \ 1/1 \ {1}, {T}: Add one mana of any color. \ DST-C
00:16:14 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Pico]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72460&oldid=72459 * Salpynx * (+295) /* Hello World! */ source bf version of the code
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00:30:38 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * UltimateProGrammer * New user account
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00:35:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72461&oldid=72357 * UltimateProGrammer * (+274) Added my edit.
00:38:23 <esowiki> [[User:UltimateProGrammer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72462 * UltimateProGrammer * (+325) Added everything.
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00:57:47 <esowiki> [[B^2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72463 * UltimateProGrammer * (+2223) Added general information about the language.
01:11:56 <esowiki> [[B^2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72464&oldid=72463 * UltimateProGrammer * (+910) Added math and compiler errors sections.
01:18:41 <esowiki> [[B^2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72465&oldid=72464 * UltimateProGrammer * (+812) Added variables section
01:30:38 <esowiki> [[B^2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72466&oldid=72465 * UltimateProGrammer * (+1536) Added more examples, explained conditional statements
01:33:07 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72467&oldid=72433 * UltimateProGrammer * (+67)
02:02:51 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Pico]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72468&oldid=72460 * Salpynx * (+1076) ideas for next steps
02:08:35 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Pico]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72469&oldid=72468 * Salpynx * (+0) correct bf brackets
02:12:44 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Pico]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72470&oldid=72469 * Salpynx * (-204) already refactored away
02:26:08 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Pico]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72471&oldid=72470 * Salpynx * (+21) necessary init
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05:21:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:HydraLoop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72472&oldid=72392 * Zzo38 * (+89)
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05:39:39 <esowiki> [[Self-modifying Turing machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72473&oldid=72402 * Hakerh400 * (+30) Change card to state
05:52:23 <zzo38> How common is it to use unusual headers for commentary on Usenet?
05:54:52 <int-e> I imagine you could single-handedly make it very common.
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06:03:17 <zzo38> I have seen at least two writers who have done such things (although I am not one of them).
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11:50:29 <esowiki> [[B^2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72474&oldid=72466 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+337) cats + rm extra title
11:52:08 <esowiki> [[B^2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72475&oldid=72474 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-38) /* Computational class */
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12:58:34 <esowiki> [[B^2 Turing Completeness]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72476 * UltimateProGrammer * (+971) Added proof (or lack thereof)
13:05:49 <esowiki> [[B^2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72477&oldid=72475 * UltimateProGrammer * (+168) Added see also for proof of turing completeness
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13:09:30 <esowiki> [[B^2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72478&oldid=72477 * UltimateProGrammer * (+2) Fixed decimal data type being referred to as float
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13:19:53 <esowiki> [[Turing machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72479&oldid=71555 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41)
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13:22:10 <esowiki> [[B^2 Turing Completeness]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72480&oldid=72476 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1051) counter-argument
13:23:08 <esowiki> [[B^2 Turing Completeness]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72481&oldid=72480 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+37) /* Counter-argument */
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14:09:01 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72482&oldid=72458 * Orby * (-7) /* Translation from Underload into Clementine */ Fixing bugs in translation
14:14:13 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72483&oldid=72482 * Orby * (+1) Grammar
14:17:13 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72484&oldid=72483 * Orby * (-24) /* Translation from Underload into Clementine */ Simplifying translation
14:20:28 <esowiki> [[Template:PageWIP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72485&oldid=72420 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4)
14:21:03 <esowiki> [[Template:PageWIP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72486&oldid=72485 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-5)
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14:21:43 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72487&oldid=72484 * Orby * (+76)
14:21:53 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72488&oldid=72487 * Orby * (+4)
14:32:45 <esowiki> [[User:Quadril-Is/Alphapolyglot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72489&oldid=69896 * Quadril-Is * (+497) yay new addition to alphapolyglot
14:54:15 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72490&oldid=72488 * Orby * (+158)
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15:36:46 <esowiki> [[User talk:Arseniiv]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72491 * LegionMammal978 * (+441) Created page with "Your [[Punctree]] interpreter uses <code>value = ord(prev) - ord('')</code> for converting Greek letters to numbers. However, Unicode has the final sigma <code></code> bet..."
15:42:32 <esowiki> [[User talk:Arseniiv]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72492&oldid=72491 * LegionMammal978 * (+111)
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16:48:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:B^2 Turing Completeness]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72493 * UltimateProGrammer * (+527) Created page with "<pre>...while a Turing machine needs an infinite (or unbounded) amount of storage, B2 isn't Turing complete. And since bounded-storage machines have finite storage, but are th..."
16:52:11 <esowiki> [[B^2 Turing Completeness]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72494&oldid=72481 * UltimateProGrammer * (-80) Adjusted language and fixed false statements
16:53:23 <esowiki> [[B^2 Turing Completeness]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72495&oldid=72494 * UltimateProGrammer * (+24) Fixed broken link
16:54:12 <esowiki> [[B^2 Turing Completeness]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72496&oldid=72495 * UltimateProGrammer * (+33) Fixed wording and over-linking
17:05:33 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * UltimateProGrammer * uploaded "[[File:B^2 Editor.png]]"
17:06:19 <esowiki> [[B^2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72498&oldid=72478 * UltimateProGrammer * (+45) Added editor picture
17:09:30 <esowiki> [[B^2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72499&oldid=72498 * UltimateProGrammer * (+371) Added Fizzbuzz example
17:28:34 <esowiki> [[B^2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72500&oldid=72499 * UltimateProGrammer * (+434) Added more common programming examples
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18:18:36 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72501&oldid=72490 * Orby * (+329)
18:23:03 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72502&oldid=72440 * Orby * (+4)
18:42:09 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72503&oldid=72501 * Orby * (+386)
18:53:28 <esowiki> [[Clem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72504&oldid=51553 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* The Clem language */ wayback
18:57:33 <esowiki> [[Clem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72505&oldid=72504 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* External resources */ wayback
19:22:45 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72506&oldid=72503 * Orby * (-1026) ''
19:25:46 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72507&oldid=72506 * Orby * (+13) /* CT as a stack based language */
19:38:13 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72508&oldid=72507 * Orby * (+30) /* Simple translation to Underload */
19:42:41 <orbitaldecay> I'm trying to convert the clementine e combinator to underload to establish the simple translation
19:44:51 <orbitaldecay> it's obviously possible in theory, but I can't figure it out as I don't know enough of the underload tricks
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20:26:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:Clementine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72509 * Orby * (+195) Created page with "I'm trying to find a nice basis which we'll call '''e''' and '''k''' s.t. '''[]''', '''[e]''', '''[k]''', and k are complete. There are many, but it would be nice to find a re..."
20:26:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72510&oldid=72509 * Orby * (+76)
20:35:47 <esowiki> [[Varnand/Python Implementation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72511&oldid=65094 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) link to parent
20:36:18 <esowiki> [[Varnand/Python Implementation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72512&oldid=72511 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0)
20:42:07 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72513&oldid=72508 * Orby * (-102) Settling on e
20:42:49 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72514&oldid=72513 * Orby * (-17) /* CT as a stack based language */
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20:51:15 <esowiki> [[Varnand/Python Implementation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72515&oldid=72512 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-7)
20:52:54 <esowiki> [[Varnand/Python Implementation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72516&oldid=72515 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2)
20:55:00 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72517&oldid=72514 * Orby * (+17) Undo revision 72514 by [[Special:Contributions/Orby|Orby]] ([[User talk:Orby|talk]])
20:55:27 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72518&oldid=72517 * Orby * (+102) Undo revision 72513 by [[Special:Contributions/Orby|Orby]] ([[User talk:Orby|talk]])
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21:09:56 <salpynx> orbitaldecay: I've just been looking at Clementine and Underload. Not sure if you have seen my wip Pico page https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Salpynx/Pico but it is a wip 2 commands representing a single bf-like contaminator function
21:10:50 <salpynx> I'm likely to change all the encodings soon, but it should be able to implement any of the bit or byte wise bf minimisations using simple tanslations.
21:12:32 <salpynx> I wanted to find another non-bf language to attempt a simple translation for, Clementine / Underload seems like great candidates. Underload uses concepts that I seem to have implement in pico(), so it might not be too difficult
21:13:16 <orbitaldecay> Underload has been minimized to M^, but it's not very pretty
21:13:50 <salpynx> orbitaldecay: I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how that relates to picofuck. I'm still exploring my meta-interpreter ideas, but I think they basically boil down to the same thing when trying to minimise into two symbols
21:15:47 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72519&oldid=72518 * Orby * (-102) Undo revision 72518 by [[Special:Contributions/Orby|Orby]] ([[User talk:Orby|talk]])
21:15:54 <salpynx> 'contaminator' function? I meant 'combinator' -- I didn't think I had an auto-correct here. That may have been a Freudian-slip.
21:17:35 <orbitaldecay> yeah, I'm still getting my head around the underload minimization, but it will definitely have ramifications on pico
21:17:54 <salpynx> I'd approach it by figuring out a bf translation for each Underload operation and then try to combine and minimise from there. Has anyone made an Underload interpreter in bf?
21:21:20 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72520&oldid=72519 * Orby * (+21) /* Simple translation to Underload */
21:21:45 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72521&oldid=72520 * Orby * (+0) /* Simple translation to Underload */
21:24:40 <salpynx> when the definition of pico() stabilises , I can begin to think about how that algorithm might be translated into rbf, or something else. I imagine it'll be more painful than getting it to work in python.
21:25:30 <orbitaldecay> Well, underload and bf are wildly different beasts. I'm fairly happy with what I have on the page right now. I just need to find a way to write * in terms of [e], [k], k and []
21:25:50 <orbitaldecay> cool, yeah doing it in python then translating is smart
21:27:08 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72522&oldid=72521 * Orby * (+0) /* Simple translation to Underload */
21:31:33 <salpynx> I need to get some work done today, but I'll read through more Clementine and Underload and explore their simple translations more later.
21:32:32 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72523&oldid=72522 * Orby * (-16) /* CT as a stack based language */
21:34:16 <salpynx> small nitpick, when I see CT I think Cyclic Tag. Not sure if that could be counted as a 'common' confusion though :)
21:38:59 <orbitaldecay> Good point. Feel free to alter it if you think of a better abreviation.
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22:31:49 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72524&oldid=72523 * Orby * (-153) /* Restricted CT */
22:32:43 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72525&oldid=72524 * Orby * (+14) /* Open questions */
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22:39:39 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72526&oldid=72525 * Orby * (+12) Changing abreviation
22:40:48 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72527&oldid=72526 * Orby * (+1) /* CLM as a term rewriting language= */
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23:38:41 <esowiki> [[Sea]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72528 * Orby * (+85) Created page with "Working on this ~~~~"
23:42:26 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72529&oldid=72527 * Orby * (-4) /* Simple translation to Underload */
23:44:55 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Pico]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72530&oldid=72471 * Salpynx * (+747) add Reversible Brainfuck style loop translation
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00:13:52 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TheCoderPro * New user account
00:15:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Felipesabino * New user account
00:20:04 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72531&oldid=72461 * Felipesabino * (+295) /* Introductions */
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01:02:04 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72532&oldid=72529 * Orby * (+23)
01:03:12 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Charmaster16 * New user account
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01:06:26 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72533&oldid=72531 * Charmaster16 * (+170) /* Introductions */
01:07:48 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72534&oldid=72533 * Charmaster16 * (+94) /* Introductions */
01:17:09 <esowiki> [[Huf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72535 * Charmaster16 * (+145) Created page with "huf is a time consuming and useless language. Its syntax is a little similar to brainfuck. Check it out here: https://github.com/Charmaster16/huf"
01:17:49 <esowiki> [[Huf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72536&oldid=72535 * Charmaster16 * (+39)
01:18:54 <esowiki> [[User:Charmaster16]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72537 * Charmaster16 * (+46) Created page with "Real name is Charlie Hough. Creator of [[huf]]"
01:24:07 <esowiki> [[Huf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72538&oldid=72536 * Charmaster16 * (+0)
01:26:19 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72539&oldid=72467 * Charmaster16 * (+10) /* H */
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02:22:12 <salpynx> I have a 2 symbol simple translation of that latest language added to the wiki 'huf' in pico(). An experiment to see how fast a language I'd never heard of could be converted without modifying the existing pico() definition.
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02:46:42 <orbitaldecay> salpynx: nice. I'm trying to see if it's theoretically possible to reduce underload to one concatenative combinator plus quoting.
02:48:06 <orbitaldecay> Btw, restricted clementine should have interesting implications for godel numberings if i can prove it tc
02:49:03 <orbitaldecay> * is really hard to compose in restricted clm. Maybe impossible. The other combinators are easy.
02:51:29 <orbitaldecay> Oh, I also reformulated clementine so that it's now the smallest proper simple translation of underload that I know of.
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04:29:53 <esowiki> [[Dotsy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72540&oldid=70238 * Quadril-Is * (+9)
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06:00:58 <zzo38> The mathematical function I mentioned earlier, I called it "IINL" for "increment in nested loops". I wrote article <1589825967.bystand@zzo38computer.org> about it, and some questions, but so far they just argue about the definition of nested loops instead of actually answering the question. Maybe eventually someone who doesn't use Google will answer the question properly.
06:03:02 <zzo38> (Maybe my definition is unclear, although the people on this IRC seem to understand it, at least.)
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06:08:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72541&oldid=72206 * Quadril-Is * (+529) Probably not PF.
06:14:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72542&oldid=72541 * Quadril-Is * (+74) /* PFC4 */
06:15:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72543&oldid=72542 * Quadril-Is * (-20) /* PFC4 */
06:20:33 <int-e> Yum. https://d4stiny.github.io/How-to-use-Trend-Micro-Rootkit-Remover-to-Install-a-Rootkit/
06:21:16 <int-e> (This kind of reversal feels very much on topic here to me.)
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06:34:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72544&oldid=72543 * Quadril-Is * (+186) /* PFC4 */ maybe?
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06:40:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72545&oldid=72544 * Quadril-Is * (+302) /* PFC4 */
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07:15:13 <Antebrationist> Namely, create a Hello, World! program which doesn't contain any of the letters or characters "!,delorHW"
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07:19:22 <int-e> `` dc <<<5735816763073854953388147237921P
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09:01:38 <kspalaiologos> it turned out, he managed to learn asm2bf in two days
09:02:41 <kspalaiologos> I'm impressed, because most people trying to learn asm2bf overall failed miserably
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09:06:25 <ais523> I have just used five different editors within the past hour
09:06:42 <ais523> and not because of some sort of editor evaluation, either, each was the obvious (or in some cases only available) tool for the job
09:06:49 <ais523> I wonder what this says about me
09:07:12 <Taneb> That you're someone comfortable with a large toolbox?
09:09:30 <b_jonas> ais523: are they editing the same kind of thing, like text files?
09:10:05 <b_jonas> I use two text editors at work. It's not because they're good for the job, both of them sucks, but I don't have a really good text editor.
09:10:16 <b_jonas> Five sounds a bit excessive.
09:12:30 <b_jonas> I guess I could even count three. I use three exitors at work.
09:13:51 <int-e> do dedicated IDEs count
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09:26:08 <ais523> int-e: one of them was a dedicated IDE for Java
09:26:29 <ais523> and I used it for all the Java files that were on my local computer, and no files that didn't meet that description
09:26:38 <ais523> (sorry for not responding earlier, I somehow managed to turn off pings by mistake)
09:26:55 <b_jonas> yeah, occasionally I use a dedicated IDE too
09:27:12 <b_jonas> but they suck, so mostly I just edit those files in a normal editor
09:27:25 <ais523> then one of them is vi, which I don't use through choice (I might occasionally use vim, but vi is kind-of sucky by comparison)
09:27:50 <ais523> because it was the most powerful editor installed on the (BusyBox-based) system
09:28:27 <ais523> the rest were more "through choice" cases, though; nano for quick editing in terminals; gedit for taking notes that go in the background; Emacs for more serious editing
09:28:40 <int-e> I use vi*m* routinely to make small edits in configuration files.
09:28:51 <ais523> int-e: right, that's comparable to my use of nano
09:29:00 <ais523> there's nothing wrong with vim for that, I just happen to prefer nano
09:29:14 <int-e> yeah I never liked nano for some reason
09:29:24 <ais523> vim is more powerful but takes more thought to use
09:29:44 <int-e> ironically I don't use any of the advanced features
09:29:48 <ais523> I think vim is probably only worth using if you're willing to put in enough practice to use it via instinct so that you don't have to think
09:30:09 <ais523> like, being able to say "delete 7 words" is powerful, but being able to /count/ 7 words is hard
09:30:51 <b_jonas> ais523: right, when you don't want to think that much, you press v then keep hitting e until it reaches the end of what you want to delete, then d
09:30:53 <int-e> emacs is my go to editor for most things. specific IDEs I've used include Isabelle/jEdit, coqide, eclipse.
09:31:06 <ais523> b_jonas: what's the difference between e and w?
09:31:09 <b_jonas> I can occasionally count 7 characters, but I don't think I ever tried to count 7 words
09:31:16 <b_jonas> ais523: e goes to the end of a word, w goes to the start of a word
09:31:32 <ais523> vim has so many subtle differences like that
09:31:37 <int-e> b_jonas: not a Haiku person
09:32:49 <ais523> I think Emacs controls are better for deleting words one at a time, you hold meta and tap d for each word you want to delete
09:34:56 <b_jonas> ais523: more importantly, when you do that in emacs, you get one entry in the yank list. vim doesn't try to unify adjacent deletions, so if you hit x four times to delete four characters, you get four yank entries.
09:37:01 <ais523> huh, I actually used /6/ editors
09:37:04 <ais523> I forgot that one of them was sed
09:37:17 <ais523> because automated editing is a little different in nature from human editing
09:37:46 <ais523> seven if you count readline at the bash prompt, but you shouldn't
09:37:56 <ais523> (and rather more if you count random text input boxes in GUI applications)
09:41:55 <int-e> . o O ( like this one in irssi, minus the "G" )
09:42:28 <int-e> I really don't think we should count these. :)
09:44:09 <int-e> (For example, ghci uses haskeline, which is distinct from readline even though it feels basically the same. If I start looking around a bit I suspect I might find an editline user as well.)
10:32:46 <ais523> that makes me wonder what an editor is
10:33:13 <ais523> Claudio Calvelli (author of CLC-INTERCAL) once wrote an editor using nothing but Bourne shell and dd; I don't know what its functionality is like
10:33:22 <ais523> but I think the entire purpose of the project was the silly language choice
10:33:36 <int-e> somebody who selects and arrenges articles for a printed product.
10:47:11 <fizzie> 1. (17) editor, editor in chief -- (a person responsible for the editorial aspects of publication; the person who determines the final content of a text (especially of a newspaper or magazine))
10:47:15 <fizzie> 2. editor program, editor -- ((computer science) a program designed to perform such editorial functions as rearrangement or modification or deletion of data)
10:47:22 <fizzie> Sense 2 is pretty generic.
10:47:32 <fizzie> I guess 'rm' is an editor as well?
10:48:05 <fizzie> fungot: Are you an editor in either sense?
10:50:41 <ais523> fizzie: arguably the purpose of rm isn't deleting data
10:50:44 <ais523> rm just un-names files
10:50:50 <ais523> it's the filesystem's garbage collector that deletes data
10:51:20 <ais523> yes, but it's a technical term, and thus would have undermined my point somewhat
10:52:58 <int-e> yeah, rm is a file system editor
10:53:31 <int-e> pretty much in the same way that scissors are paper editors ;)
10:54:11 <ais523> vi edits files, rm edits filesystems
10:57:25 <int-e> https://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/1993/07/07
10:58:21 <spruit11> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htaSWIPMvVM&pbjreload=10
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11:00:49 <b_jonas> ais523: but rm -r also does rmdir, to which the garbage collector thing doesn't apply, rmdir plain just deletes a directory
11:01:41 <b_jonas> also rm still works on file systems like FAT, which doesn't have inodes, nor anywhere you could store a link count
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11:03:53 <myname> fizzie: how do you rearrange text using rm?
11:04:23 <ais523> b_jonas: does rmdir unlink directories on filesystems that allow for directory hardlinks?
11:05:13 <ais523> oh! another thing I did today was to change my bash prompt to show my primary group, rather than my user
11:05:33 <ais523> because for all the regular user accounts I use the primary group and user are the same, but sometimes I temporarily switch primary group
11:05:41 <ais523> and I want a reminder of when I've done that
11:06:08 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't know, "directory hardlinks" is something that I only heard as having existed historically, I don't think I've ever met it as something that actually exists
11:06:41 <b_jonas> I don't even know if that ever coexisted with a hierarchical file system
11:07:11 <b_jonas> maybe it was used back in pre-v1 unix when every call that needed a path instead took two arguments, a directory name and a file name, with no separators in them
11:08:34 <ais523> I vaguely remember NTFS supporting something directory-hardlink-like, it might be different though
11:09:58 <b_jonas> I think they just have three different types of symlink
11:10:10 <b_jonas> each of which work on directories
11:11:38 <b_jonas> although I'm not sure I could even distinguish between "like a symlink" and "like a hardlink" for aliases that are set up by the operating system and that I would never try to remove or rename because I'm sure it would either fail or break something important
11:12:20 <b_jonas> I'm not trying to deliberately break my windows systems at work, they break on their own, or third party software that I install breaks them
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11:45:48 <fizzie> myname: The description had an "or" condition, not an "and" condition.
11:46:03 <fizzie> It's "designed to perform such editorial functions as -- deletion of data".
11:46:29 <fizzie> But, yeah, ais523's point on it not actually deleting data is fair enough.
11:48:33 <myname> but dd would modify data
11:53:25 <fizzie> Hypothetically, you could be using rm for "rearranging text" if you had a document split across multiple files in a scheme where you include all files and use file name sort order to control how they're arranged.
11:53:57 <fizzie> Like, my thesis was split to 00_preface.tex, 01_intro.tex and so on, though I don't think I had a wildcard include or anything.
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12:53:26 <esowiki> [[Tree]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72546&oldid=21620 * Felipesabino * (+96) Added reference to Typescript implementation
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13:41:29 <esowiki> [[Tree]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72547&oldid=72546 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) /* External resources */ cat
13:46:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72548&oldid=72545 * Quadril-Is * (-1071) /* PFC4 */ bad
14:17:44 <esowiki> [[User talk:InfiniteDonuts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72549&oldid=72451 * InfiniteDonuts * (+61)
14:21:21 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck derivatives]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72550&oldid=46433 * InfiniteDonuts * (+215)
14:21:36 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck derivatives]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72551&oldid=72550 * InfiniteDonuts * (-2) /* brainflop */
14:21:43 <esowiki> [[ChuckScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72552&oldid=51226 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-42) /* Examples */ make the examples not go off the page
14:22:48 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72553&oldid=72532 * Orby * (+2) /* Simple translation to Underload */
14:27:38 <esowiki> [[User:InfiniteDonuts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72554&oldid=72164 * InfiniteDonuts * (+91)
14:30:39 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72555&oldid=72553 * Orby * (+18)
14:31:05 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72556&oldid=72555 * Orby * (+1) /* CLM as a stack based language */
14:43:02 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72557&oldid=72556 * Orby * (+451)
14:44:20 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72558&oldid=72557 * Orby * (+1) /* Open questions */
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15:20:18 <esowiki> [[JumpFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72559&oldid=22807 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+52) /* Implementations */ cats
15:29:58 <esowiki> [[There Once was a Fish Named Fred]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72560&oldid=42985 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+335) /* Hello world */ interpreter
15:34:45 <esowiki> [[Huf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72561&oldid=72538 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+224) cats
15:36:29 <esowiki> [[MangularJS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72562&oldid=71606 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) /* See also */
15:36:45 <esowiki> [[MangularJS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72563&oldid=72562 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-30) /* See also */
15:37:08 <esowiki> [[Symbolic Python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72564&oldid=66198 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-39) /* Cat program */ rm empty section
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16:57:04 <esowiki> [[Mineso]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72565&oldid=44608 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1)
17:03:51 <esowiki> [[Libertas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72566&oldid=25123 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24)
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17:15:21 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72567&oldid=72558 * Orby * (+13)
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17:29:07 <esowiki> [[Clementine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72568&oldid=72567 * Orby * (+48) /* Simple translation to Underload */
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17:54:25 <esowiki> [[!!!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72569&oldid=62873 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23)
17:56:59 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72570&oldid=72251 * Emerald * (+989) Added errors
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19:16:08 <esowiki> [[(]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72571&oldid=62872 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+73) /* Turing-completeness */
19:23:55 <esowiki> [[Black]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72572&oldid=65524 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) /* Computational class */ rm redlink
19:29:25 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72573&oldid=72096 * Digital Hunter * (+3) /* Surtic */ Surtic was updated and this page was not updated to match.
19:37:41 <rain1> https://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/gn7kcr/a_sequence_you_definitely_wont_find_in_oeis_395/
19:37:51 <rain1> a(n) is the lowest positive number that does not appear in position n in any OEIS sequence:
19:43:00 <int-e> a(n) is A[n](n)+1 <-- at least make it stable under extensions of OEIS.
19:43:42 <int-e> s/it/the existing entries/
19:47:06 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72574&oldid=72383 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Seabass */
19:47:08 <b_jonas> rain1: that is in the OEIS I think
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19:52:52 <b_jonas> rain1: http://oeis.org/A107357
19:54:11 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72575&oldid=57897 * Digital Hunter * (-389) /* Instruction Syntax */
19:55:10 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72576&oldid=72575 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* S */
19:55:31 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72577&oldid=72576 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Hello, world! */
19:55:53 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72578&oldid=72577 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Infinite Cat */
19:56:30 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72579&oldid=72578 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Factorial */
19:57:34 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72580&oldid=72579 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* 99 bottles of beer */
19:57:50 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72581&oldid=72580 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Truth-machine */
19:58:12 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72582&oldid=72581 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Add two numbers */
19:58:40 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72583&oldid=72582 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Subtract two numbers */
19:59:21 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72584&oldid=72583 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Multiply two numbers */
19:59:59 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72585&oldid=72584 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Divide two numbers */
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20:13:11 <esowiki> [[Underload]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72586&oldid=65895 * Orby * (+16) Added Clementine to influenced list
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21:07:55 <esowiki> [[COD]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72587 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3793) Created page with "'''COD''' is a [[:Category:Two-dimensional languages|two-dimensional]] esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. It has nothing to do with [[Deadfish]]. ==Overview== Progra..."
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22:09:12 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * KingJellyfish * New user account
22:12:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72588&oldid=72534 * KingJellyfish * (+353)
22:32:29 <esowiki> [[Befunge-with-graphics]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72589 * KingJellyfish * (+747) Created page with " = befunge-with-graphics = As it's name suggests, this language is [[befunge]] but with graphics. It's name can be shortened to bwg and will be for the rest of this article...."
22:32:57 <esowiki> [[Befunge-with-graphics]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72590&oldid=72589 * KingJellyfish * (-27)
22:33:38 <esowiki> [[User:UltimateProGrammer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72591&oldid=72462 * UltimateProGrammer * (+8)
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22:57:18 <esowiki> [[Befunge-with-graphics]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72592&oldid=72590 * KingJellyfish * (+1246)
23:02:13 <esowiki> [[Befunge-with-graphics]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72593&oldid=72592 * KingJellyfish * (+336)
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23:41:42 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72594&oldid=72432 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+46)
23:42:34 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72595&oldid=72539 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) /* C */ =
23:49:41 <esowiki> [[Befunge-with-graphics]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72596&oldid=72593 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+99) /* Future features and bug fixes */ cats
23:50:10 <esowiki> [[Befunge-with-graphics]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72597&oldid=72596 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22)
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01:28:50 <imode> https://xkcd.com/2309/ relevant to this channel.
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02:19:17 <esowiki> [[Huf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72598&oldid=72561 * Charmaster16 * (+38)
02:19:39 <esowiki> [[Huf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72599&oldid=72598 * Charmaster16 * (+0)
02:20:07 <esowiki> [[Huf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72600&oldid=72599 * Charmaster16 * (+1)
02:20:30 <esowiki> [[Huf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72601&oldid=72600 * Charmaster16 * (+1)
02:22:51 <esowiki> [[Huf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72602&oldid=72601 * Charmaster16 * (+39)
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05:40:32 <int-e> imode: it's not so bad... we only need 2 variables for a Minsky machine
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05:41:44 <int-e> or we could use Haskell which viewed from the right angle has no variables at all ;)
05:42:03 <Antebrationist> Are there any esolangs which create or look like ASCII art?
05:42:52 <int-e> (Because the x in `\x -> x` is a parameter, not (as we sloppily call it) a variable. And `main` is a constant.)
05:43:21 <int-e> shachaf: good point.
05:46:42 <HackEso> 1125) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
05:50:17 <int-e> hrm. where does the combining character belong...
05:50:45 <int-e> ^8ball Do I hate Unicode?
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05:55:27 -!- int-e has set topic: Welcome to the multinational league for esoteric programming proliferation, protection, and protestation! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/.
05:56:13 <int-e> Well, the previous topic was Easter-themed.
05:57:20 <int-e> Besides, we do take this channel very seriously, and that should be reflected in the topic.
05:58:13 <HackEso> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.
06:02:13 <int-e> . o O ( It's a pro league, in case that wasn't obvious. )
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06:34:56 <rdartigues> i'm probably late, but the last XKCD definitively has it's place on esolangs.org frontpage...
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06:43:55 <rdartigues> well well, appreciation to the community, cheers
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08:30:22 <int-e> Jury's still out on that one.
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10:19:45 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72603&oldid=72570 * Emerald * (-84) Removed dumb error; this would break truth machine
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10:23:11 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72604&oldid=72595 * Emerald * (+27) Not affiliated with digfill tm
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11:14:51 <esowiki> [[Befunge-with-graphics]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72605&oldid=72597 * KingJellyfish * (+2042)
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11:27:55 <esowiki> [[Befunge-with-graphics]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72606&oldid=72605 * KingJellyfish * (+177)
11:29:04 <myname> i am disappointed by the examples. there needs to be a screenshot
11:30:30 <esowiki> [[Befunge-with-graphics]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72607&oldid=72606 * KingJellyfish * (+757) Example programs
11:31:22 <myname> also, is it possible to have a graphical quine?
11:33:02 <esowiki> [[Befunge-with-graphics]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72608&oldid=72607 * KingJellyfish * (-147) /* Example with drawing and keyboard input */
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12:06:35 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nux * New user account
12:10:57 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72609&oldid=72588 * Nux * (+342) introducing myself (Nux)
12:22:41 <esowiki> [[X]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72610 * Nux * (+527) Created article for X language defined in and XKCD comic
12:22:59 <esowiki> [[X]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72611&oldid=72610 * Nux * (-1) typo
12:23:29 <esowiki> [[X]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72612&oldid=72611 * Nux * (-10) I really should have proof-read this.
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12:39:26 <fizzie> That didn't take long.
12:41:52 <myname> meh, that's more permissive than necessary
12:42:32 <myname> x in just one font is plenty enough and also leass readable
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12:58:49 <esowiki> [[COD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72613&oldid=72587 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+73) /* Edge commands */
13:06:22 <esowiki> [[EXCON]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72614&oldid=61815 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+83) /* 99 bottles of beer */
13:07:50 <esowiki> [[EXCON]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72615&oldid=72614 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+46) /* Interpreter */ cats
13:15:05 <esowiki> [[RubE On Conveyor Belts/Interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72616&oldid=38331 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) rm newline
13:15:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72617&oldid=61420 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) lower title
13:20:20 <esowiki> [[COD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72618&oldid=72613 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* Commands */
13:26:05 <esowiki> [[COD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72619&oldid=72618 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+94) /* Truth-machine */
13:38:56 <esowiki> [[Triplet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72620&oldid=38459 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+355) interpreter
13:40:06 <esowiki> [[Triplet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72621&oldid=72620 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-74) /* Triplet-to-brainfuck converter in Python */
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14:49:17 <int-e> . o O ( What's a flate-arther... ) <-- I hate when that happens.
14:50:33 <int-e> (The hyphen is mine. I was reading something on Twitter and that word stumped me for a moment.)
14:52:08 <myname> in german, there is a quite popular misreading of "brathering" (roasted herring) as something english that doesn't exist
14:53:48 <int-e> Brathering ist aber nur dann verwirrend, wenn er am Anfang des Satzes steht.
14:55:26 <int-e> (I tend to not capitalize english nouns even when typing german. I suppose that's wrong.)
14:56:05 <int-e> But it *feels* right. And by today's standard that entitles me to do it.
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16:08:02 <esowiki> [[PROLAN/M]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72622&oldid=53700 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4)
16:09:31 <esowiki> [[PROLAN/M]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72623&oldid=72622 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-7)
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17:03:12 <cpressey> I'd like to do more than just transmit greetings but at this point I'm too exhausted.
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17:21:49 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/TemplateWikipediaXML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72624&oldid=72368 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+65)
17:21:59 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/TemplateWikipediaXML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72625&oldid=72624 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-65) Undo revision 72624 by [[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]] ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]])
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17:25:38 <esowiki> [[Array Changer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72626&oldid=68164 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) /* Commands */ cts
17:33:10 <esowiki> [[Quine (programming language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72627&oldid=46833 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) /* Hello world */ quine
17:37:44 <esowiki> [[Java']] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72628&oldid=49735 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) cats
17:43:03 <esowiki> [[Sceql]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72629&oldid=53704 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) derivative
17:53:22 <esowiki> [[Huf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72630&oldid=72602 * LegionMammal978 * (+58) fixed title, added cats
17:56:13 <esowiki> [[There Once was a Fish Named Fred]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72631&oldid=72560 * LegionMammal978 * (-13) fixed interpreter
17:57:12 <esowiki> [[There Once was a Fish Named Fred]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72632&oldid=72631 * LegionMammal978 * (-30) another fix
17:59:34 <esowiki> [[Befunge-with-graphics]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72633&oldid=72608 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
18:10:37 <esowiki> [[Triplet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72634&oldid=72621 * LegionMammal978 * (-9) remove silly requirement from interpreter
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18:36:04 <esowiki> [[Befunge-with-graphics]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72635&oldid=72633 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22)
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18:47:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72636&oldid=63347 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+37) /* Not Turing-complete? */ unsigned
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19:05:59 <esowiki> [[Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72637&oldid=72603 * Emerald * (+103) Added error
19:09:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72638&oldid=72223 * Emerald * (+213) /* Core concept being same as another */ new section
19:14:40 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72639&oldid=72502 * Orby * (+300)
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19:26:17 <esowiki> [[Dig straight down like an idiot]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72640 * Emerald * (+188) Yes
19:27:24 <esowiki> [[DSDLAI]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72641 * Emerald * (+45) Redirected page to [[Dig straight down like an idiot]]
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21:27:32 <esowiki> [[Dig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72642&oldid=72637 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Errors */
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22:03:23 <orbitaldecay> Thinking about real valued brainfuck. In theory you could encode an entire bit tape as a value in the interval [0,1] as X := sum n_i * 2^(-i) where n_i is the bit in the i-th position on the tape. Moreover, you could use X to inform a bernoulli process i.e. have Y = 1 with probability X and 0 otherwise. By performing bitwise operations on Y and gibbs sampling the output, you could converge on any computation on the tape.
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22:09:56 <orbitaldecay> e.g. Y would tend toward 1 with probability >= 0.5 if n_1 is 1. Y would be 1 with probability >= 0.75 if the first and second bits are 1 and probability [0.25,0.5] if the first bit is zero and second bit is 1, etc.
22:11:03 <orbitaldecay> The more times you sampled, the better accuracy you'd get farther down the tape
22:12:12 <orbitaldecay> Ultimately converging on the correct computation
22:13:10 <orbitaldecay> !Y would converge on the bitwise negation of each cell.
22:18:57 <orbitaldecay> The only problem is there's no way to distinguish between 10000000... and 01111111...
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22:59:52 <FreeFull> orbitaldecay: Do you know about fractran?
23:08:06 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72643&oldid=72604 * Nux * (+8)
23:10:08 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72644&oldid=70725 * Nux * (+8) /* General languages */
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00:18:03 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72645&oldid=72644 * Emerald * (+82) DSDLAI
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00:37:25 <esowiki> [[Dig straight down like an idiot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72646&oldid=72640 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) Cats
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00:38:08 <esowiki> [[B^2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72647&oldid=72500 * UltimateProGrammer * (+607) Added type conversion/rounding
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00:42:39 <esowiki> [[B^2 Turing Completeness]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72649&oldid=72496 * UltimateProGrammer * (+2) Fixed incorrect formatting on counter-argument
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00:51:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig straight down like an idiot]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72650 * UltimateProGrammer * (+241) Bruh
01:02:39 <zzo38> Now I implemented layer distortion. For example, you can print arched text. What are the correct equation for a distortion of arched text?
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05:11:39 <zzo38> I have Dodrio with 70 hit points, no damage, and one attack which is 10 plus however much damage is on this card, and I need to knock out one of their cards to win. They have Nidoran with 50 points, no damage, and two attacks, first one is no damage now but if this card attacks next turn the damage will be doubled, and second one is toss a coin if heads 40 damage if tails nothing.
05:14:27 <zzo38> Mostly the second one would be better, but in this case the first one is better, but nevertheless they did the second one instead.
05:15:15 <zzo38> Do you believe me?
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05:47:18 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Untitled 4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72651&oldid=72344 * Zzo38 * (+366) Examples
06:04:16 <moony> zzo38: I dunno i'm no pokemon master :P
06:10:10 <zzo38> Neither am I, but I think that much is clear to me at least, because if they did the second attack then I will win if their attack hits.
06:11:25 <zzo38> While, if they did the first attack instead, then they will be only partially damaged and if their attack hits next turn, then Dodrio is knocked out instead.
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07:43:52 <cpressey> The inescapable conclusion is that Jot is a concatenative language.
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09:31:37 <cpressey> And the inescapable inference to be made from the fact that Jot is a concatenative language is that function application is a form of function composition.
09:35:33 <int-e> I guess it is if you abstract from the I that is used for the empty string.
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09:36:35 <int-e> Since [xF] = F'[x] for some F'.
09:37:44 <int-e> maybe the conclusion is that "concatenative" is almost meaningless and applies to any program representation as strings.
09:37:53 <shachaf> Category theory people and things like https://arxiv.org/pdf/1212.6543.pdf would like to say that, but I think it's normally a pretty niche view.
09:39:17 <shachaf> I guess it's also a popular view in linear algebra, where people like to represent vectors in V as maps : F -> V
09:42:30 <cpressey> Also, "Jot" and "Joy" differ by only one character, there's got to be some significance there, right?
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09:45:13 <int-e> cpressey: Actually I think I'm just retracing my own steps here... I have already deconstructed concatenativity in that way months ago, stating the program semantics as a function from a compiler state to another compiler state, and moving the setup of the initial compiler state and the extraction of the program to run into the machine that defines the model of computation.
09:45:54 <int-e> But I will admit that in the Jot case it is almost natural.
09:46:43 <int-e> Since the program extraction is the identity, and the intial state is just I.
09:47:13 <int-e> And, obviously, there are no compiler errors of any sort.
09:50:34 <cpressey> int-e: I'm actually fairly sure I follow you, but I have a difficult time putting it into words myself.
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10:19:23 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72652&oldid=72133 * Emerald * (+106) Added DSDLAI
10:20:11 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72653&oldid=72652 * Emerald * (+4) /* Languages I made: */
10:32:39 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Breadbunbun * New user account
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10:39:37 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72654&oldid=72609 * Breadbunbun * (+259) /* Introductions */
10:40:33 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72655&oldid=72654 * Breadbunbun * (+0) /* Introductions */
10:47:01 <cpressey> re the article shachaf linked to, I often think of sets as functions (or more specifically, predicates,) but I'm not really seeing the intuition for looking at *elements* as functions.
10:49:21 <cpressey> "For any set X, a function 1 -> X is essentially just an element of X" is just totally confusing.
10:49:35 <cpressey> Please don't try to explain it.
10:49:42 <cpressey> I think I am deciding not to care.
10:50:36 <myname> it does remind me of argument-less haskell functions, though
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10:51:14 <int-e> Yeah, it's just weird. You start doing pointless things and then you find that you need ways to still make points.
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10:51:55 <myname> like, foo :: Int -> Int -> Int is a function that expects a value and returns a 1-argument-function, which in turn accepts a value and returns a "0-argument-function"
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11:14:58 <shachaf> But this view certainly fits "function application is a form of function composition" above.
11:15:33 <shachaf> Haskell doesn't have zero-argument functions.
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12:02:34 <esowiki> [[Twoee]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72656&oldid=58274 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+245) /* Road Map */ interpreter + cats
12:02:41 <esowiki> [[Twoee]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72657&oldid=72656 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-5) /* External resources */
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12:06:47 <esowiki> [[Bully automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72659&oldid=72658 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1)
12:10:48 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72660&oldid=72655 * Orion * (+233) /* Introductions */
12:12:10 <esowiki> [[Daft]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72661&oldid=67197 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-15) /* Code samples */ rm empty pre
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12:22:00 <esowiki> [[BIRL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72662&oldid=49044 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+136) refactor
12:22:19 <esowiki> [[BIRL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72663&oldid=72662 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1)
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12:35:37 <fizzie> Odd, this git repository has a [remote "origin"], but it's configured with url = X.Y.Z.W:foo, where X.Y.Z.W is the IP address of the machine itself (not loopback, its public address) and "foo" the name of the directory it's in. I wonder what happened here.
12:36:22 <myname> why is that odd? it's fairly normal imho
12:36:33 <andrew_gtgt> new idea: esolang whose only data source is its own source code
12:36:59 <myname> andrew_gtgt: so basically anything that does not read from stdin?
12:37:36 <andrew_gtgt> only reads data from its source code and modifies itself
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12:38:23 <myname> no stack at all is pretty limited, i suppose
12:38:42 <myname> befunge can do that with a reasonably bounded stack
12:39:02 <myname> bullying automatons could fall into your idea
12:39:48 <andrew_gtgt> then reads the digits of those prime factors like instructions
12:40:02 <myname> fractran is pretty close
12:40:04 <andrew_gtgt> effectively, the job is to find a number whose factors spell out a program
12:40:26 <andrew_gtgt> or verify a prime number which works like that
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12:41:51 <andrew_gtgt> maybe another thing that plays with numbers
12:44:30 <myname> you can do an awful lot with numbers. under a few transformation rules, every program can correspond to a number
12:45:04 <myname> iirc there is a bf derivate that just uses an unary number that it transforms into bf code to execute
12:46:47 <fizzie> myname: I don't think it's normal for a repository's "origin" remote to refer to itself. Usually it's a *different* machine it was cloned from.
12:47:42 <myname> but you'd have to create it at some point
12:47:58 <fizzie> Yes, but "git init" doesn't set up any remotes at all.
12:48:23 <myname> i rarely use vcs locally
12:48:33 <myname> i wish i did, would give me a reason to try pijul
12:48:34 <fizzie> It's also paradoxically three commits ahead of itself (in the sense of HEAD vs. refs/remotes/origin/HEAD).
12:48:48 <andrew_gtgt> also: a language which also creates languages and sometimes passes execution to them>
12:49:05 <fizzie> (I'm guessing I just transplanted the whole directory from some other system rather than cloning it properly, and never cleaned up.)
12:49:36 <myname> the head issue is interesting
12:49:46 <myname> i never considered that to be different things at all
12:50:15 <fizzie> I imagine that's just because the remote refs aren't updated until you actually fetch from the remote.
12:51:23 <myname> that is actually pretty neat
12:51:34 <myname> so i can just git pull to get back to a safed state
12:51:48 <myname> no more need for branches!
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13:59:47 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72666&oldid=72381 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24)
13:59:57 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72667&oldid=72666 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3047) Blanked the page
14:00:21 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72668&oldid=72594 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-15)
14:00:36 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72669&oldid=72643 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* L */ + [[Lamfunc]]
14:00:48 <esowiki> [[Lamfunc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72670 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3047) Created page with "'''Lamfunc''' is a functional esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Memory== Lamfunc uses a mapping of variable names to values (e.g., a dictionary/associative array)..."
14:01:12 <esowiki> [[Lamfunc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72671&oldid=72670 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Lambdas */
14:01:47 <esowiki> [[Lamfunc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72672&oldid=72671 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-56) /* Lambdas/IIFEs */
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14:34:12 <esowiki> [[English]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72673&oldid=62569 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22)
14:35:04 <esowiki> [[English]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72674&oldid=72673 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */
14:38:11 <esowiki> [[Sumerian]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72675&oldid=58902 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23)
14:44:00 <esowiki> [[Mov]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72676&oldid=61272 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* As a compilation target */
14:44:50 <esowiki> [[Mov]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72677&oldid=72676 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+52) /* References */
14:46:51 <esowiki> [[PlusOrMinus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72678&oldid=71605 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-71) /* Resources */
14:48:07 <esowiki> [[PlusOrMinus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72679&oldid=72678 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+154) /* Resources */
14:51:14 <esowiki> [[A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72680&oldid=71246 * Arcorann * (-43) /* External links */ fix nested wayback machine link
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15:15:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:X]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72681 * Int-e * (+154) xxx
15:20:27 <esowiki> [[Movesum]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72682 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2617) Created page with "'''Movesum''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] where the only instructions are ''move'' and ''sum''. ==Memory== Movesum programs have access to a right-unboun..."
15:21:30 <esowiki> [[Movesum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72683&oldid=72682 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-38)
15:22:11 <esowiki> [[Movesum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72684&oldid=72683 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+47) /* Rest of the program */
15:22:39 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72685&oldid=72669 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* M */ + [[Movesum]]
15:24:22 <esowiki> [[Mostawesomeprogramminglanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72686&oldid=57710 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+123) /* Language Compiler */ cats
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15:25:22 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72687&oldid=72668 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) /* Languages */
15:27:26 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72688&oldid=72585 * Digital Hunter * (+54) /* C */ changed what the R function did to better reflect the nature of the language.
15:28:20 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72689&oldid=72688 * Digital Hunter * (+12) /* Instruction Syntax */
15:30:57 <int-e> do we have a category for grossly underspecified languages
15:31:26 <int-e> . o O ( and/or wikipedia-style stubs )
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15:33:48 <cpressey> We definitely have {{stub}}, I don't know what would make it count as "Wikipedia-style" though
15:33:57 <cpressey> e.g. https://esolangs.org/wiki/ESO_sockets
15:34:20 <cpressey> There is essential no information there other than the name "ESO sockets"
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15:37:17 <esowiki> [[X]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72690&oldid=72612 * Int-e * (+66) meow
15:37:25 <wib_jonas> cpressey: we have https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Random to find such articles
15:37:41 <int-e> cpressey: there is actually a "Stubs" category, so I used that.
15:38:35 <cpressey> I think {{stub}} automatically adds the page to the Stubs category fwiw
15:39:50 <int-e> Oh well. I guess I abused the category then. But it's really the language itself that's stubby, not the article (which is very short but says pretty much everything that can be said).
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15:51:37 <cpressey> I just tried to write an evaluator for the untyped lambda calculus based on the "Lambda calculus" article on Wikipedia. It didn't go very well, because the article's idea of a "formal definition" of alpha conversion consists of sentences like "α-conversion is not possible if it would result in a variable getting captured by a different abstraction."
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15:52:39 <int-e> cpressey: alpha-conversion is a certain road to insanity ;)
15:54:28 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72691&oldid=72689 * Digital Hunter * (+52) /* Instruction Syntax */
15:55:42 <cpressey> If I have a term t, and a variable x, and a variable name FRESH that I'm certain doesn't appear in t, then can't I just walk down t replacing any free instances of x with FRESH, and not descending into any term where x is bound?
15:57:30 <cpressey> Thats' what I implemented but I need to test it.
15:57:40 <cpressey> Anyway, have to be going, ttyl.
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16:44:43 <HackEso> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.
16:45:36 <int-e> No, there are esoteric programming languages.
16:46:05 <Mysteryhunter> so you can programm ghosts and ouija boards and such things or what?
16:47:10 <int-e> No, they're programming languages that are unusual, rarely used (hence esoteric), and often outright useless.
16:47:42 <int-e> But many of them are still interesting and pose intellectual challenges.
16:48:13 <Mysteryhunter> i have the compulsion to order some stuff on the internet
16:49:11 <int-e> you could order a raspberry pi
16:49:58 <int-e> Well this is a programming channel.
16:50:10 <int-e> I suspect this is the best answer you'll get.
16:51:03 <int-e> It is. It's not a nice one... its popularity is a huge mystery :P
16:51:25 <fizzie> Low barrier to entry is my guess.
16:51:58 <Mysteryhunter> the damn thing is it is on a hard drive that have some failures
16:52:06 <fizzie> fungot: Would you prefer to be written in PHP instead of what you are?
16:52:07 <fungot> fizzie: from call to/ argument of memq returns false or a list?
16:52:35 <fizzie> Aw, I was hoping for one of those magical moments.
16:52:52 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
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16:55:08 <int-e> fungot: are you magical?
16:55:08 <fungot> int-e: well. the disk died now and irc is running on sesefras? what was he doing for those 10 months?
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17:19:08 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Stochastic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72692 * Orby * (+1677) Recording ideas
17:20:21 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72693&oldid=72639 * Orby * (+89)
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18:14:57 <fizzie> Bluuuuh. I was thinking I wouldn't yet need to figure out this Stack thing, because the "apt install xmonad libghc-xmonad-dev libghc-xmonad-contrib-dev cabal-install && cabal update && cabal install dbus-client" approach *has* so far been sufficient to get my preferred environment up and running. But now the last step fails with "Illegal instance declaration for 'Variable String'". :/
18:24:03 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72694&oldid=72693 * Orby * (+20)
18:27:52 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72695&oldid=72694 * Orby * (-4) /* Languages I find interesting */
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19:26:05 <esowiki> [[COD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72696&oldid=72619 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40)
19:27:35 <esowiki> [[COD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72697&oldid=72696 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-93) /* Truth-machine */
19:36:42 <esowiki> [[Registry]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72698&oldid=45622 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) cat
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19:44:35 <Mysteryhunter> kennt wer die antwort von dem witz "was ist der stärkste kleber"?
19:46:27 <int-e> I'm hoping that was the wrong channel
19:48:17 <kmc> JB Weld heißt er und gilt als der stärkste Kleber der Welt, der schon vor 30 Jahren in den USA enwickelt und dort, millionenfach verkauft wurde.
19:48:38 <myname> find ich nich so witzig
19:49:49 <int-e> kmc: that looks like a serious answer
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19:57:39 <zzo38> It is look like German to me but I don't know what it is mean
19:59:53 <esowiki> [[Disney queue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72699&oldid=46436 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* Child swap */ fix cat
20:00:17 <int-e> It's so tempting to say that it was a sticky subject and leave it at that. (It was about glue, allegedly there's a joke about the strongest glue. No idea where that came from.)
20:00:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72700&oldid=67759 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+72) /* Miscellaneous */ + Data Types and Structures
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20:03:48 <int-e> It's probably "Kraftkleber" which is a german term for contact adhesives (which tend to be fairly strong). It's too obvious to be funny.
20:11:15 <esowiki> [[R.e.s.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72701&oldid=30774 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+56)
20:12:26 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72702&oldid=72158 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* External resources */
20:13:32 <esowiki> [[Increment]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72703&oldid=72370 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-17)
20:16:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brachylog]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72704&oldid=66517 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) unsigned
20:17:23 <esowiki> [[Mama]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72705&oldid=71251 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+59)
20:18:47 <arseniiv> for a week or two I write a PEG-like parser-combinator-like parsing code in Python
20:20:08 <arseniiv> now with my new knowledge of lookaheads and cuts I think error productions can handle something like a traditional panic mode, but maybe even better. I haven’t tried yet, I need to implement correct memoization to handle (indirect) left recursion
20:20:21 <esowiki> [[Flip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72706&oldid=57660 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-9) rm redlinks
20:22:05 <arseniiv> generator functions came in handy for describing each parser combinator, though I’m still unsure should I raise parsing errors as exceptions or just plainly return them, as currently I don’t use its exceptional nonlocal behavior, just catching each exception right outside the call to the combinator it was raised from
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20:23:53 <arseniiv> I mean, using generators allows to decouple many things from calls to other combinators, including memoization. Simple packrat memoization then is implemented in ~5 lines, but the trick for allowing left recursion would need a longer addition
20:27:20 <arseniiv> also I’m not totally sure I came up with a correct interplay between “error-production combinators” and lookaheads, and error combinators look hack-ish anyway: they raise an error but inside it sits a return value which needs a special treatment by the trampoline machine which runs all the combinators
20:27:43 <esowiki> [[Huby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72707&oldid=34401 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) /* External resources */ wayback
20:29:47 <esowiki> [[Hexlr7]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72708&oldid=59050 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-7)
20:30:24 <arseniiv> now, if we are inside a lookahead, this secret result isn’t taken out and doesn’t supercedes the error, so we can properly fail where it’s semantically a parsing failure. And that hack may even memoize correctly, but I’m still unsure if I hadn’t overlooked something. When all the code will be done, it seems I should write a ton of various tests
20:31:51 <esowiki> [[Hexlr7]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72709&oldid=72708 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-5) https
20:33:59 <esowiki> [[Hexlr7]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72710&oldid=72709 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+149) cats
20:35:51 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72711&oldid=72700 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) /* Totality */
21:09:16 <esowiki> [[Catch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72712&oldid=31593 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1)
21:11:54 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72713&oldid=72667 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1799)
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22:42:44 <andrew_gt> idea: esolang which is physically impossible to run
22:46:20 <zzo38> OK, how do you intend to do that? Maybe there are some.
22:46:51 <andrew_gt> which exploits the many-worlds theory to somehow get the program to work properly
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22:47:39 <b_jonas> andrew_gt: there are some uncomputable esolangs up there. my favourite is (0)
22:52:56 <b_jonas> I'm in europe so I already ate. I ate fish.
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23:00:44 <zzo38> Do you think that my current plans for typesetting in TeXnicard are sufficient for most card games that you know of?
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01:25:59 <xylochoron[m]> Little arms that can double in size, and can grab each other, and can rotate each other if they find something to grab. Each arm can be programmed to follow a certain repetitive routine. Turing complete?
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01:28:29 <xylochoron[m]> They can grab from an infinite pool of arms that pop up from under
01:43:48 <zzo38> Also the description doesn't looks like good enough, maybe
01:44:25 <kmc> today on "esolang idea or salvia trip description?"
01:50:44 <imode> betting on the latter.
02:12:48 * kmc mumbles something about the time knife
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02:41:21 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ellie * New user account
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02:49:18 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72720&oldid=72660 * Ellie * (+170)
02:49:36 <esowiki> [[Hanabi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72721&oldid=72375 * Ellie * (-4) don't know my old account's password - proof @ https://gist.github.com/elyatai/c361fabc5c1eb7ea5eb787ed8827e6a7
03:22:33 <zzo38> What time knife is that?
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03:45:52 <kmc> https://i.redd.it/bn48fm9zzab21.png
03:47:16 <kmc> i agree the language with the arms is under-specified, but it sounds plausibly turing complete
03:49:29 <kmc> a 1D array of automata each of which can 1) follow a finite-state program 2) communicate with its neighbors and 3) spawn additional automata at the ends can implement a Turing machine
03:52:08 <int-e> still depends on what kind of operations the "routine" has.
03:52:30 <int-e> (it sounded as if the finite state program was rather restricted)
03:54:41 <zzo38> Yes, that is what I thought too
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04:15:19 <Antebrationist> Anyone have any thoughts about Xylochloron's idea for the fever dream machine?
04:31:24 <zzo38> I am not sure of what is that idea; maybe I forgot
04:31:41 <Antebrationist> Little arms that can double in size, and can grab each other, and can rotate each other if they find something to grab. Each arm can be programmed to follow a certain repetitive routine. Turing complete?
04:32:20 <Antebrationist> It sounds like it, doesn't it. Given the complexity of the system, it's probably close to TC.
04:32:47 <zzo38> OK, but I think the description is not enough to know yet.
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05:08:05 <zzo38> The description of net.bizarre says "This is not a newsgroup."
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05:21:11 <esowiki> [[User:Ellie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72723&oldid=72722 * Ellie * (-20)
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05:58:34 <zzo38> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/Untitled_4 What are the bounds for the largest number that can be computed for a program of X commands, and is there an efficient algorithm to construct such a program?
06:02:49 <rain1> that looks very interesting
06:08:33 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Untitled 4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72724&oldid=72651 * Zzo38 * (-1) Correct a typographical error
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06:44:32 <arseniiv> int-e: `@help eval` writes a good thing but as `eval` is also a module name, that hides the name of the command to show active bindings, IIRC that existed. I can’t remember its name at all :′(
06:46:14 <arseniiv> hm there’s definitely something wrong with that dictionary
06:46:40 <int-e> arseniiv: nah there's no such command
06:46:44 <lambdabot> what lambdabot has in scope is at http://silicon.int-e.eu/lambdabot/State/Pristine.hs
06:47:11 <int-e> this is the closest you'll find and it doesn't include any additions using @let
06:47:48 <lambdabot> *** "lawyer" devil "The Devil's Dictionary (1881-1906)"
06:47:48 <lambdabot> LAWYER, n. One skilled in circumvention of the law.
06:48:45 <arseniiv> I liked this one, don’t remember who showed me it:
06:48:50 <int-e> so elements is another thing in the `dict` group... hmm
06:48:55 <lambdabot> *** "die" devil "The Devil's Dictionary (1881-1906)"
06:48:55 <lambdabot> DIE, n. The singular of "dice." We seldom hear the word, because
06:48:55 <lambdabot> there is a prohibitory proverb, "Never say die." At long intervals,
06:48:55 <lambdabot> however, some one says: "The die is cast," which is not true, for it
06:48:55 <lambdabot> is cut. The word is found in an immortal couplet by that eminent poet
06:49:03 <lambdabot> and domestic economist, Senator Depew:
06:49:03 <lambdabot> A cube of cheese no larger than a die
06:49:05 <lambdabot> May bait the trap to catch a nibbling mie.
06:49:26 <int-e> @elements potassium
06:49:27 <lambdabot> *** "potassium" elements "The Elements (07Nov00)"
06:49:46 <arseniiv> int-e: honestly @elements hydrogen works, as does @elements neutron :D
06:49:52 <int-e> it;s an extra package in debian: dict-elements
06:50:02 <int-e> which I just installed
06:50:57 <int-e> I don't recall anybody every complaining about this.
06:51:08 <arseniiv> (though neutron is a sane element, I don’t disagree. If dineutron existed, it would be its isotope)
06:52:35 <arseniiv> anyway I’m not being too serious usuallu
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06:54:37 <int-e> I thought the `dict` thingies all look things up online but apparently that's not true for @elements
07:04:13 <lambdabot> *** "rutherfordium" elements "The Elements (07Nov00)"
07:04:13 <lambdabot> Competing name for {unnilquadium}, the 104th element, proposed by the
07:04:13 <lambdabot> American Chemical Society. Also competing name for {unnilhexium}
07:04:47 <lambdabot> the 106th element, proposed by the IUPAC. Finally in 1997 the IUPAC
07:04:47 <lambdabot> decided to use Rutherfordium as the official name of the 104th element.
07:05:05 <lambdabot> *** "seaborgium" elements "The Elements (07Nov00)"
07:05:05 <lambdabot> Name proposed for the 106th element ({unnilhexium}) by the American
07:05:05 <lambdabot> Chemical Society in honor of Gleen T. Seaborg, an American nuclear
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07:08:00 <lambdabot> *** "unnilhexium" elements "The Elements (07Nov00)"
07:08:05 <lambdabot> Half-life of 0.9 +/- 0.2 s. Discovered by the Joint Institute for
07:08:08 <lambdabot> Research at Dubna (U.S.S.R.) in June of 1974. Its existence was
07:08:12 <lambdabot> by the Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory and Livermore National Laboratory in
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07:16:37 <zzo38> Do you know the name of the esoteric programming language that I made up and mentioned recently?
07:17:00 <zzo38> (So far I didn't put the name, but once it is, then it can be moved to the main name space.)
07:21:05 <int-e> https://esolangs.org/wiki/QuestForOmniscience is free
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08:29:56 <esowiki> [[User talk:Arseniiv]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72725&oldid=72492 * Arseniiv * (+450) thanks
08:31:36 <esowiki> [[User talk:Arseniiv]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72726&oldid=72725 * Arseniiv * (+28) topicalized this
08:33:33 <arseniiv> <int-e> https://esolangs.org/wiki/QuestForOmniscience is free => . o O ( DisbeliefOfSuspense? )
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10:45:05 <Mysteryhunter> really day begins fantastic... get waked up by toothaches, then the keyboard flies on the floor together with the coffee, coffee on they keyboard, then cannot finda lighter for cigarillo
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10:57:11 <andrewtheircer> but if it would ever reach a state which is declared invalid, then it retroactively replaces its starting generation with the most similarly evolving program which doesn't error
10:59:23 <andrewtheircer> or it just mangles your universe's physical constants to change history, and therefore, change you to code its rules differently
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12:30:20 <esowiki> [[Movesum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72729&oldid=72684 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+158) /* Infinite numeric cat */
12:30:36 <esowiki> [[Movesum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72730&oldid=72729 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* Syntax and Semantics */
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13:02:50 <esowiki> [[Object-oriented paradigm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72733&oldid=50672 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-41) rm cat
13:03:36 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72734&oldid=72732 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+152) /* Using variables */ cats
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17:28:47 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72741&oldid=72685 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) /* I */ + [[Interprogck8]]
17:31:41 <esowiki> [[Int**]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72742&oldid=70587 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-31) rm nonexistent template
17:34:21 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72743&oldid=72715 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+96) /* Languages */
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17:53:44 <esowiki> [[Eternity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72746&oldid=59230 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) deadlink
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19:32:59 <esowiki> [[MdX]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72748 * Andrew3335 * (+1130) Created page with ":''The title of this article is incorrect because of technical limitations. The correct title is '''mdX'''.'' '''mdX''' is a family of languages created in the Esolangs Disco..."
19:33:52 <esowiki> [[MdX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72749&oldid=72748 * Andrew3335 * (+2)
19:34:40 <esowiki> [[MdX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72750&oldid=72749 * Andrew3335 * (+22)
19:34:58 <esowiki> [[MdX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72751&oldid=72750 * Andrew3335 * (+6)
19:35:35 <esowiki> [[MdX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72752&oldid=72751 * Andrew3335 * (+24)
19:38:36 <esowiki> [[MdX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72753&oldid=72752 * Andrew3335 * (-171)
19:39:40 <esowiki> [[MdX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72754&oldid=72753 * Andrew3335 * (+71)
19:40:19 <esowiki> [[User:Palaiologos]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72755&oldid=72229 * Palaiologos * (+0)
19:48:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig straight down like an idiot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72756&oldid=72665 * Emerald * (+420) Response
19:49:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig straight down like an idiot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72757&oldid=72756 * Emerald * (+1) /* Issues */
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20:43:52 <andrew_esolang> new esolang idea: golfing esolang which takes the empty stringas input
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20:58:15 <myname> the unix timestamp is way to short for that, but there are probably golfing sites that allow you to set the time to make some solutions shorter
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21:06:26 <esowiki> [[Eval]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72758&oldid=72747 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+847)
21:07:13 <esowiki> [[Eval]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72759&oldid=72758 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+94) /* Hello, World! */ cats
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21:30:51 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72760&oldid=72743 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+59) /* Languages */
21:31:39 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72761&oldid=72735 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* Infinite cat */
21:48:22 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72762&oldid=72653 * Emerald * (+437) More of me
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22:18:33 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72763&oldid=72762 * Emerald * (+610) Proposal
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23:52:55 <esowiki> [[B^2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72764&oldid=72648 * UltimateProGrammer * (+30) Fixed fizzbuzz example
23:57:55 <esowiki> [[There Once was an Esolang Named Fred]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72765 * Baidicoot * (+1941) created page
00:01:03 <esowiki> [[There Once was an Esolang Named Fred]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72766&oldid=72765 * Baidicoot * (+9)
00:01:26 <esowiki> [[There Once was an Esolang Named Fred]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72767&oldid=72766 * Baidicoot * (-12)
00:03:24 <esowiki> [[Fred]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72768 * Baidicoot * (+50) Redirected page to [[There Once was an Esolang Named Fred]]
00:06:36 <Mysteryhunter> are there actually any german speaking/understanding here?
00:07:33 <HackEso> A wegian is an equivalence class of #esoteric regulars. There are two main wegians, the Nor (from Finland) and the Glas (from Hexham). There's also the hypothetical Gal, which hasn't been observed yet so we're not sure where it's from.
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00:17:46 <HackEso> 9774:2016-11-26 <oerjän> learn_append wegian There\'s also the hypothetical Gal, which hasn\'t been observed yet so we\'re not sure where it\'s from. \ 8971:2016-08-24 <hppavilion[1̈]> learn A wegian is an equivalence class of #esoteric regulars. There are two main wegians, the Nor (from Finland) and the Glas (from Hexham). \ 8315:2016-06-04 <shachäf> rm wisdom/wegian \ 8314:2016-06-04 <shachäf> sedlast s/member/regular/ \ 8313:2016-06-
00:18:02 <HackEso> 2/2:-06-04 <shachäf> learn A wegian is an equivalence class of #esoteric members. There are two main wegians, the Nor (from Finland) and the Glas (from Hexham).
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00:37:38 <esowiki> [[Interprogck8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72769&oldid=72740 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+170) /* Dice roll */
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00:43:48 <Mysteryhunter> if anyone wannajoin our new channel #MysteryNewsTV feel free to
00:44:25 <zzo38> What are you discussing there?
00:45:30 <Mysteryhunter> but we havent many users there yet thats why I asked to come over
01:18:11 <HackEso> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.
01:18:32 <Arcorann> (had to dig through my scrollback for this)
01:29:32 <Mysteryhunter> its not esoteric i just meant if u wanna talk about esoteric we also do we keep with anything interresting
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01:30:19 <Mysteryhunter> its not esoteric i just meant if u wanna talk about esoteric we also can talk about it we do we keep with anything interresting
01:31:04 <Mysteryhunter> its not esoteric i just meant if u wanna talk about esoteric we also can talk about it we keep with anything interresting
01:31:29 <Antebrationist> zzo38, I've made a little progress on the MTG fermat's last theorem.
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04:32:08 <zzo38> How big is IINL^[IINL(3)](0) compared with Skewes's number and other big numbers like that?
04:36:32 <zzo38> Increment in nested loops
04:37:48 <Arcorann> Is there a link to the function definition?
04:40:22 <zzo38> Article <1589825967.bystand@zzo38computer.org> on sci.math gives a description. I also described it before on this IRC (although I didn't call it "IINL" yet by that time).
04:41:24 <zzo38> Make a number of nested "repeat X times" loops where the number of nesting is the initial value of X (the input of the function), and inside of the innermost loop is "increment X" command. The output is the final value of X after all of those loops are finished.
04:46:12 <Arcorann> IINL(x) = f_omega(x) in the fast-growing hierarchy, if my understanding is correct
04:48:20 <zzo38> Yes, that is what I thought (or at least its Grzegorczyk index is omega), although I have not proven this.
04:50:55 <Arcorann> Which means IINL^[IINL(3)](0) lies between f_{omega+1}(3) and f_{omega+1}(f_{omega}(3)) (haven't done the full calculation)
04:56:23 <Arcorann> If we let f_0(x) = x+1 and f_k(x) be defined by repeat X times { x := f_{k-1}(x) } then f_k(x) = f_{k-1}^x(x) which is the definition of FGH
04:58:35 <zzo38> O, OK. That makes sense now
05:26:19 <zzo38> But when you get into infinite ordinals, then what? Some ordinals are limit ordinals and have no predecessor.
05:29:03 <Arcorann> Each ordinal alpha is assigned a fundamental sequence -- a sequence of ordinals which is increasing and has limit alpha
05:29:41 <Arcorann> For example, the fundamental sequence for omega (for the Wainer hierarchy) is given by omega[n] = n
05:30:46 <Arcorann> Then we have f_{omega+1}(n) = f_{omega}^{n}(n) and so on
05:34:44 <zzo38> Yes, I expected that f_{omega+1}(n) = f_{omega}^{n}(n), just I didn't know how to do according to your definition when a limit ordinal is involved because you defined it in terms of its predecessor and a limit ordinal has no predecessor.
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11:38:24 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MartinAsdf * New user account
11:41:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72770&oldid=72720 * MartinAsdf * (+133) /* Introductions */
11:42:11 <esowiki> [[User:MartinAsdf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72771 * MartinAsdf * (+7) Created page with "ITS ME."
11:42:23 <esowiki> [[User:MartinAsdf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72772&oldid=72771 * MartinAsdf * (+162)
11:43:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72773&oldid=72200 * MartinAsdf * (+6166)
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12:31:05 <esowiki> [[Eval]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72774&oldid=72759 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+55) /* Commands */
12:31:14 <esowiki> [[Eval]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72775&oldid=72774 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-110) /* Commands */
12:31:29 <esowiki> [[Eval]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72776&oldid=72775 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12)
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12:53:06 <esowiki> [[Sclipting]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72777&oldid=45239 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) /* Interpreter */ update link
13:02:37 <esowiki> [[There Once was an Esolang Named Fred]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72778&oldid=72767 * Baidicoot * (+91)
13:03:12 <esowiki> [[Thue Symbol Sorting Theorem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72779&oldid=8097 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) /* External resources */ wayback
13:10:35 <esowiki> [[Collatz function]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72780&oldid=56726 * Baidicoot * (+122) Added link for Wikipedia resource
13:28:44 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72781&oldid=72761 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-40)
13:30:22 <esowiki> [[Graverage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72782&oldid=67301 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-18) fix link
13:39:32 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72783&oldid=72781 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3926) Blanked the page
13:39:39 <esowiki> [[Grapheme]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72784 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3926) Created page with "'''Grapheme''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] where the only valid characters are uppercase Latin letters. ==Memory== Grapheme uses an unbounded stack, whic..."
13:40:09 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72785&oldid=72741 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* G */
13:41:36 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72786&oldid=72760 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+74) /* Languages */
13:41:57 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72787&oldid=72785 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* E */
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13:56:27 <esowiki> [[Grapheme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72788&oldid=72784 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+96) /* Edge cases */
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15:44:38 <esowiki> [[Grapheme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72789&oldid=72788 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+59) /* Normal mode and funcmode */
15:51:37 <esowiki> [[Grapheme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72790&oldid=72789 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Normal mode and funcmode */
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16:57:35 <esowiki> [[There Once was an Esolang Named Fred]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72791&oldid=72778 * Baidicoot * (+213) PROVEN TC
16:59:59 <esowiki> [[ Encrypted ]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72792 * Hakerh400 * (+9804) +[[ Encrypted ]]
17:00:10 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72793&oldid=72787 * Hakerh400 * (+26) +[[ Encrypted ]]
17:00:20 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72794&oldid=71500 * Hakerh400 * (+26) +[[ Encrypted ]]
17:03:39 <esowiki> [[There Once was an Esolang Named Fred]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72795&oldid=72791 * Baidicoot * (+8) /* Turing-Completeness */
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17:48:46 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Term rewriting metalanguage]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72796 * Orby * (+1544) Created page with "[[Thue]] is a string rewriting [[matrioshka language]]. That is, it is possible to define TC string rewriting languages within it. Many of the languages I have been tinkering..."
17:49:37 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72797&oldid=72695 * Orby * (+84)
17:56:44 <esowiki> [[There Once was an Esolang Named Fred]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72798&oldid=72795 * Baidicoot * (+611) added 'add' example
17:58:47 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Term rewriting metalanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72799&oldid=72796 * Orby * (+43) /* Example */
17:59:08 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Term rewriting metalanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72800&oldid=72799 * Orby * (+2) /* Example */
17:59:16 <esowiki> [[There Once was an Esolang Named Fred]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72801&oldid=72798 * Baidicoot * (+34) /* Example Programs */
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18:02:16 <esowiki> [[There Once was an Esolang Named Fred]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72802&oldid=72801 * Baidicoot * (+135) /* Syntax */
18:02:27 <esowiki> [[There Once was an Esolang Named Fred]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72803&oldid=72802 * Baidicoot * (-10)
18:02:56 <esowiki> [[There Once was an Esolang Named Fred]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72804&oldid=72803 * Baidicoot * (-13) /* Example Programs */
18:13:08 <esowiki> [[There Once was an Esolang Named Fred]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72805&oldid=72804 * Baidicoot * (+96) /* Turing-Completeness */
18:17:27 <esowiki> [[There Once was an Esolang Named Fred]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72806&oldid=72805 * Baidicoot * (+15) /* Syntax */
18:18:23 <esowiki> [[There Once was an Esolang Named Fred]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72807&oldid=72806 * Baidicoot * (-36)
18:27:15 <esowiki> [[B^2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72808&oldid=72764 * UltimateProGrammer * (+172) Added run support note.
18:31:02 <esowiki> [[B^2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72809&oldid=72808 * UltimateProGrammer * (+146) Added link to editor
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18:34:32 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * UltimateProGrammer * uploaded "[[File:B^2 Editor New.png]]"
18:35:10 <esowiki> [[B^2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72811&oldid=72809 * UltimateProGrammer * (-22)
18:44:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:B^2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72812 * Palaiologos * (+221) Created page with "Is this an esoteric language? Looking at the goals and claims about efficiency, maybe the language doesn't really belong here? --~~~~"
18:45:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:B^2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72813&oldid=72812 * Palaiologos * (+117) computational class?
19:02:39 <esowiki> [[Funciton/Quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72814&oldid=46122 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) link
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19:06:48 <esowiki> [[UniCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72815&oldid=32083 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+34) cat + style
19:11:06 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/XShell]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72816&oldid=71918 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+171)
19:11:20 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/XShell]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72817&oldid=72816 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Builtins */
19:14:50 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/XShell]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72818&oldid=72817 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+62) /* Examples */
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19:38:49 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Term rewriting metalanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72819&oldid=72800 * Orby * (+534)
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21:16:14 <baidicoot> How does one go about relabeling a language so that it *vaguely, kind of* represents natural language? any tips/references?
21:18:07 <baidicoot> also, `multinational league for esoteric programming proliferation, protection, and protestation`?
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21:31:17 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Term rewriting metalanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72820&oldid=72819 * Orby * (+1254)
21:31:58 <orbitaldecay> baidicoot: There is a category on the wiki called psuedonatural. That might be a good place to start.
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21:33:55 <esowiki> [[(1) Grace sent you a message]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72821 * Hakerh400 * (+1868) +[[(1) Grace sent you a message]]
21:34:03 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72822&oldid=72793 * Hakerh400 * (+35) +[[(1) Grace sent you a message]]
21:34:08 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72823&oldid=72794 * Hakerh400 * (+35) +[[(1) Grace sent you a message]]
21:36:11 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Term rewriting metalanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72824&oldid=72820 * Orby * (+6)
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21:53:12 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Term rewriting metalanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72825&oldid=72824 * Orby * (+643)
21:54:01 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Term rewriting metalanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72826&oldid=72825 * Orby * (+15) /* Examples */
21:57:46 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Term rewriting metalanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72827&oldid=72826 * Orby * (+8) /* As a Thue extension */
21:57:59 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Term rewriting metalanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72828&oldid=72827 * Orby * (-3) /* As a Thue extension */
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22:17:05 <imode> is there any language/esolang that consists exclusively of parentheses? don't say lisp. :P
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22:26:23 <b_jonas> imode: brainfuck. it has three types of parenthesis: [] <> and +-
22:27:22 <b_jonas> or Incident, where every identifier appears three times like < | > with the three doing different things, and they match up and know where the other two are
22:28:25 <imode> sorry, I guess I should specify: balanced parentheses.
22:28:41 <imode> no other characters other than ( and ).
22:30:46 <imode> + and - aren't strictly balanced, neither are < and >.
22:48:55 <fizzie> https://esolangs.org/wiki/() -- it's not the easiest-to-parse description, but looking at the JS implementation, it looks somewhat likely that it requires the balance.
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23:17:43 <b_jonas> imode: I guess you could consider Amicus, since its only data types is (finite) lists that can have any length and can have any list at every element, so if you write them with just parenthesis without the commas it's unambiguous, and any balanced parenthesis sequence is a valid object
23:17:58 <b_jonas> (some of them won't work as programs, but you can only find that out in runtime)
23:18:41 <b_jonas> (there are some undefined cases in the syntax that could be used for extensions, but you can't predict without running the program if you run onto one, and any object is valid as data)
23:19:15 <b_jonas> Amycus even more so, because it has some operations to compose lists
23:21:25 <b_jonas> it still can't decompose lists, so you mostly use them to compose lists that happen to be parts of programs
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23:32:12 <spruit11> Shouldn't be hard? () = S, ()() or (()) = K, anything else braces.
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23:33:49 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/XShell]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72829&oldid=72818 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Truth-machine */
23:35:42 <b_jonas> hmm no, apparently Amycus does have some ways to deconstruct lists (if you have a bound on their length)
23:35:57 <b_jonas> I don't know how that works. probably magic.
23:38:01 <imode> is the guy who did the postfix/"forth-like" combinatory logic interpreter still here?
23:41:58 <imode> made any progress with it?
23:42:30 <orbitaldecay> I did. See the skiforth page. There is now a bootable iso.
23:43:15 <imode> interesting. what made you use postfix instead of prefix?
23:44:40 <orbitaldecay> Though I''ve since moved on to so called concatenative combinators, which are better suited for the task (see clementine). I used postfix because I thought it worked more nicely with the forth-like word definitions.
23:46:18 <imode> interesting, are you intending on using quotes or stringing stuff together via apply.
23:47:02 <orbitaldecay> The later. It has a strong postfix unlambda feel to it.
23:48:45 <orbitaldecay> Though at this point I really consider skiforth an intellectual stepping stone to clementine, which I find much more elegant
23:49:30 <imode> been trying to find the "elegance" in combinators lately, concatenative or otherwise.
23:50:06 <orbitaldecay> As skiforth doesn't support arbitrary stack manipulation, but clementine does while maintaining roughly the same level of simplicity
23:50:36 <imode> I don't have the headspace for them, I guess.
23:51:30 <orbitaldecay> I find it useful to think of them as term rewriting languages
23:52:41 <imode> trying to reconcile the imperative part of my brain with the expression-oriented part of my brain and then tack combinators on to that is a hassle. I have a rewriting language but I don't like it, because it presupposes the idea of lists of things.
23:54:07 <orbitaldecay> I started with lambda calculus and learned combinators as a simplification of that, which I think is an easier step to take
23:56:22 <orbitaldecay> I'm currently working on something that I think is going to end up being a term rewriting extension to thue
23:56:38 <imode> you'd like my language then.
23:57:11 <imode> will give you my sketch.
23:58:10 <imode> https://hatebin.com/nfyprzklqo
23:59:09 <imode> https://repl.it/repls/ShorttermGrimProjections
23:59:31 <imode> it's a rewrite language in the style of thue (no vars, just replacement rules).
00:00:40 <imode> it's definitely not a pretty language, but you can do some interesting things in it.
00:00:55 <imode> for example, you can define what `if` and `if/else` are.
00:01:03 <orbitaldecay> Nice, hopping in the car but will read shortly. Here's what I'm working on https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Orby/Term_rewriting_metalanguage
00:01:10 <imode> been reading that.
00:02:44 <imode> if is just `def [true if] [rapply] def [false if] [rdrop]`
00:03:08 <imode> if/else is `def [true if/else] [rapply rdrop rswap] def [false if/else] [rapply rdrop]`
00:05:12 <imode> it's not satisfying because you still have all those pre-defined things in the way. I guess I just like stuff like Thue more because you have no assumptions other than "I will replace this thing with this other thing at random".
00:05:50 <imode> out of chaos on a 1D line, you can enforce order.
00:16:05 <orbitaldecay> I hate to be a bother, but could you post it somewhere else? I really want to read what you're working on but hatebin in timing out for me.
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00:30:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:(1) Grace sent you a message]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72830 * JonoCode9374 * (+223) Created page with "Yeah thanks a lot. My browser thinks I've got one notification now, when I don't. ~~~~ ;P"
00:31:29 <imode> https://pastebin.com/raw/dcYx4u1i
00:31:38 <imode> weird that hatebin is timing out.
00:34:53 <imode> I think the problem is that there's way too many assumptions baked into the interpreter here.
00:36:43 <imode> it's not really a "rewriting language" if you aren't utilizing the rewriting part of it any further than base cases.
00:38:19 <b_jonas> I don't see spruit's language as a "term rewriting language" either, even though he claims it's a term rewriting language
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00:51:04 <imode> it's not satisfying to write in a language with pre-baked assumptions. it's more fun to build those things.
00:54:30 <orbitaldecay> imode: What you have there reminds me a lot of concatenative combinators
00:55:27 <imode> yeah. it kinda just popped out.
00:55:29 <orbitaldecay> Have you read the paper by Brent Kirby? I think you'd find use for it here
00:55:55 <imode> Concatenative Calculus?
00:56:05 <imode> theory of concatenative combinators, I take it.
00:56:23 <imode> yeah, I've been all around the concatenative scene.
00:57:46 <imode> it's an interesting idea. the language (and interpreter) has left and right-handed versions of all of the combinators (dup swap drop quote cat call).
00:58:07 <orbitaldecay> It seems to me like what you need is a good basis to work with
00:58:14 <imode> it just doesn't strike me as satisfying.
00:58:27 <imode> you pre-suppose things and quoted lists of things.
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00:59:28 <orbitaldecay> And you'd prefer to build those lists out of some other primitive?
01:00:35 <imode> you distinguish between two kinds of "symbols": compound ones that form lists, and individual ones, that do work on the symbols to the left and right.
01:01:44 <orbitaldecay> I think what you''re calling symbol I would call term?
01:02:20 <imode> can't be sure, I don't know what you'd call a term. to me, a term is, essentially, just a tree.
01:02:58 <orbitaldecay> I'd call a term something you can define with one line of bnf
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01:34:50 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72831 * UltimateProGrammer * (+1540) Add everything
01:41:27 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72832&oldid=72831 * UltimateProGrammer * (+99) Add cats
01:45:41 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72833&oldid=72832 * UltimateProGrammer * (+120) Added IO
01:47:56 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72834&oldid=72833 * UltimateProGrammer * (+55) Added example
01:55:10 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72835&oldid=72834 * UltimateProGrammer * (+35) Fixed grammar and specified better
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02:11:59 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72836&oldid=72835 * UltimateProGrammer * (+146) Added divisible by 3 example WIP
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05:01:43 <zzo38> How to make global variables in unnamed unions in C?
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05:20:17 <imode> zzo38: you want a union as a global variable?
05:27:14 <zzo38> Well, I want a unnamed union as a global variable. GNU C supports unnamed structs and unions inside of other structs and unions.
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05:43:49 <imode> I think you can just do it the same way you declare an unnamed struct as a global variable. assuming you don't want to name the type.
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05:50:49 <zzo38> One consideration to make in TeXnicard is kerning/ligatures between accented characters (if the precomposed character isn't already in the font). I think TeX does not attempt it at all, although I have a bit different idea.
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05:54:56 <zzo38> My idea is that ligatures between accented characters are still disabled, although kerns are sometimes acceptable. A positive kern always works; a negative kern will only be used if the height and depth of the characters involved is such that the unaccented character will not move closer to the accent mark if the height and depth of the unaccented character does not reach the position of the accent mark.
05:55:17 <zzo38> Does this seem reasonable enough?
05:57:52 <zzo38> (I also have ideas about how to do precomposed accented characters, which might or might not have associated glyphs; if they don't, they will be decomposed when it is time to print them.)
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09:36:50 <HackEso> A device is a browser session. Please verify your device.
09:41:40 <shachaf> `asm .byte 0x0f, 0x22, 0xdc
09:44:02 <shachaf> `asm .byte 0x0f, 0x22, 0110
09:44:06 <shachaf> `asm .byte 0x0f, 0x22, 0210
09:44:09 <shachaf> `asm .byte 0x0f, 0x22, 0310
09:45:16 <int-e> mov %rsp,%cr3 sounds adventerous
09:46:54 <shachaf> I had it in my HackEso /msg window from a while ago. Not sure what was going on there.
09:47:07 <int-e> are those 3 all valid?
09:47:35 <shachaf> `asm .byte 0x0f, 0x22, 0010
09:48:01 <shachaf> https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/mov-1 says "0F 22 /r MOV CR0–CR7, r64"
09:50:23 <HackEso> 0: 44 0f 22 c0 mov %rax,%cr8
09:51:05 <shachaf> `asm .byte 0x0f, 0x22, 0300
09:51:51 <shachaf> Oh, that makes sense, actually.
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09:52:07 <shachaf> I saw a different instruction listed for CR8 and I was, like, whoa, dude, but it's just extended with a REX bit as usual.
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09:55:16 <wib_jonas> zzo38 re global variables in unnamed unions in C => you can't. nor can you make function-local variables in unnamed union as the top level. I looked that up once. the workaround, as you'd expect, is to use a named union.
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09:56:11 <shachaf> This is some sneaky C preprocessor trickery: https://gist.github.com/pkhuong/8e575dcade519d42436a302e9c8a5844#file-test-c
09:56:48 <shachaf> I didn't think you could do that.
09:58:00 <wib_jonas> zzo38 re ligatures on accented characters => for latin and greek scripts, in natural languages we just precomposed characters for every possible accented combination, even when it's 138 or so Vietnamese letters.
09:58:59 <wib_jonas> that's unless you want to write stuff that only goes into linguists writing about phonetics, with accented characters that you'd only put in a dictionary or scholarly article, in which case they're screwed and we don't care.
10:00:00 <wib_jonas> There's still some hackery with sets of accented letters that are considered the same unicode character but have a different appearance or different case folding rules depending on which language it's used for.
10:01:59 <wib_jonas> These are tricky, ideally you treat them as glyph variants for the same character that have a default glyph that depends on the language, but they cause annoyance because you have to define extra APIs that you only ever use if you typeset vietnamese or turkish or serbian/macedonian cyrillic words.
10:02:54 <wib_jonas> The serbian/macedonian thing may have been a mistake IMO; with the turkish you're screwed no matter what you do; and I don't have an opinion about vietnamese.
10:15:49 <Mysteryhunter> https://twitter.com/MysteryNewsTV/status/1264861721023438848
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10:20:19 <int-e> Mysteryhunter: that seems to be unironic, so you have the wrong channel
10:20:33 <int-e> `relcome Mysteryhunter
10:20:35 <HackEso> Mysteryhunter: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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10:52:46 <wib_jonas> does EVERYONE have to invent their own representation for the enum type that can represent one of the IEEE 754 rounding modes? x86 uses 0=nearest, 1=down, 2=up, 3=zero; MMIX rA register uses 0=nearest, 1=zero, 2=up, 3=down, but the Z argument of instructions uses 1=nearest, 2=up, 3=down, 4=zero; the MPFR library uses 0=nearest, 1=zero, 2=up,
10:52:47 <wib_jonas> 3=down, 4=away from zero, 5=faithful; Bellard's libraries use 0=nearest, 1=zero, 2=down, 3=up, 4=C round, 5=away from zero, 6=faithful.
10:53:54 <int-e> . o O ( round to zero is the easiest to implement )
10:53:56 <wib_jonas> why didn't people just copy whatever the earliest representation was, such as the 80287, at least for the four standard modes?
10:54:09 <int-e> Note: *to*, not *towards*.
10:55:19 <int-e> now to figure out what "faithful" is... round to even on a tie?
10:55:39 <wib_jonas> int-e: yes, I know. nearest is actually round to nearest with ties to even; down is round towards minus infinity; up is round towards plus infinity; zero is round towards zero;
10:56:20 <wib_jonas> int-e: faithful is non-deterministically round towards plus infinity or towards minus infinity, depending on the input values
10:56:54 <wib_jonas> it's a weird optimization that may or may not be useful in some cases, especially for transcendent functions
10:56:55 <int-e> +1 with probability <fractional part>
10:57:16 <int-e> somthing like that that's correct in the expected value?
10:58:08 <wib_jonas> C round is actually round to nearest but ties away from zero, this is used for only one fucking legacy case, the "round" function in C, which is a function that nobody uses or should use, but it was in K&R so we can't get rid of it
10:59:15 <wib_jonas> int-e: no, not correct in the expected value, it's nondeterministic in the sense that it returns whichever is convenient to optimize the function globally (for every possible input argument)
10:59:23 <wib_jonas> it doesn't try to be correct in expected value
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11:09:27 <wib_jonas> and then there's one more possible rounding mode not represented here, MIX rounding, which means round to nearest, but round ties to even unless the floating point exponent base is divisible by 4, in which case round to odd instead.
11:11:10 <esowiki> [[User talk:Baidicoot]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72837 * OsmineYT * (+111) Created page with "== Swedway == This is pain. -- ~~~~"
11:11:45 <wib_jonas> but this is also one of the legacy modes that don't come up anymore, because everyone uses floating point with exponent base of either 2 or 10, in which case it's just the normal round to nearest with ties to even mode.
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11:30:01 <wib_jonas> the ARMv8 floating point control register FPCR apparently uses 0=nearest, 1=up, 2=down, 3=zero, the same as the MMIX control register rA.
11:35:18 <int-e> @check \ä -> ä == ()
11:37:42 <moony> wib_jonas: I wonder if that's a coincidence or not
11:38:21 <wib_jonas> moony: there are only so many ways you can sanely encode these four modes to two bits
11:38:45 <wib_jonas> what I don't understand is where Bellard's code got that representation
11:39:02 <wib_jonas> although wait, that part of the code doesn't originate from Bellard
11:39:10 <wib_jonas> who's the original author, let me check
11:40:14 <wib_jonas> ah, wait, this gets more complicated
11:44:14 <Mysteryhunter> hey man do you also have this problem with some guys in IRC which makes me just going nuts
11:44:45 <wib_jonas> no, apparently the small softfp is by Bellard, and it uses 0=nearest, 1=zero, 2=down, 3=up, and this is also what Bellard's libbf uses (with extra modes); but the larger qemu softfloat by John R. Hauser, which if I understand is derived from the smaller one, uses 0=nearest, 1=down, 2=up, 3=zero, 4=C round, which is the same as x86's encoding, so
11:45:10 <wib_jonas> it still doesn't explain where Bellard got those values from
11:45:48 <Mysteryhunter> like dumb people trying to provocate me or insulting me or such things
11:46:29 <moony> Mysteryhunter: i think this is the wrong channel for that kind of discussion :p
11:48:00 <wib_jonas> there are also mutually incompatible single-letter abbreviations: N sometimes means nearest, sometimes means down (as in towards Negative infinity)
11:51:25 <wib_jonas> I think I'll avoid single-letter abbreviations
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11:52:54 <esowiki> [[Parentheses only]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72838 * Hakerh400 * (+5594) +[[Parentheses only]]
11:52:57 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72839&oldid=72822 * Hakerh400 * (+23) +[[Parentheses only]]
11:52:59 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72840&oldid=72823 * Hakerh400 * (+23) +[[Parentheses only]]
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12:00:54 <wib_jonas> seriously, this is crazy. I've seen small enums that were encoded in two incompatible ways, and larger enums (like errno or signals or unix system calls) encoded in multiple ways, but this enum with four values mapped to 0..3 in three ways takes the cake
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12:19:36 <esowiki> [[Parentheses only]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72842&oldid=72841 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Interpreters */
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13:13:24 <ais523> wib_jonas: a while back, there was a situation where someone was trying to sell a commercial derivative of some GPL'ed code, and they had (as legally required) released the source, so I tried to get it to compile but the toolchain was insane
13:13:36 <ais523> I almost managed to do so, but with the issue that I couldn't link in libm without everything breaking
13:13:43 <ais523> so instead, I reimplemented all the libm functions it was using
13:13:57 <ais523> one of them was round; I replaced round(x) with (int)(x+0.5)
13:15:30 <wib_jonas> I guess it doesn't matter for this
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13:16:13 <rain1> do you want a problem
13:16:38 <rain1> put 3*n balls in box A. there are 3 boxes. in step k you must move k balls to another box.
13:16:47 <ais523> which probably isn't quite mathematically perfect but should be close enough
13:16:48 <rain1> by step n you can have n balls in each box
13:17:02 <ais523> wib_jonas: 1, but indeed it doesn't matter much
13:17:18 <ais523> 3 would be relevant in that if the build instructions were insufficient, the derivative would be illegal
13:17:22 <wib_jonas> there's a GPL1? I thought they numbered it from 2
13:17:37 <ais523> there was, it isn't used any more, it's really buggy
13:17:46 <ais523> and I'm not sure there was a single standardised version of it
13:17:56 <ais523> but rather lots of tweaked versions, a little like MIT and BSD nowadays
13:18:02 <Arcorann_> There's at least one Tetris clone licensed under GPL1, back when it was new
13:20:02 <wib_jonas> what I'd like is an MIT-like license, that is, just a sticky disclaimer of warranties, but with the special property that where it allows anyone to redistribute identical or derived versions, it explicitly says "perpetual worldwide" or words to such effect.
13:20:33 <wib_jonas> I'm uneasy by the licences not stating those explicitly, I'm worried that it will bite *someone* *somewhere* eventually
13:21:24 <moony> ais523: doesn't the x+0.5 method of round have trouble with negatives?
13:21:43 <ais523> moony: ah right, I think it does
13:21:50 <ais523> e.g. -2.2 would round to -1 which is obviously wrong
13:22:00 <wib_jonas> moony: yes, and also with numbers larger than an int, but presumably that didn't matter in the particular source code file that ais edited
13:22:02 <ais523> but the number in question was always positive
13:23:38 <moony> also, on a different note: Texas Instruments is pulling support for assembly programs on the TI-84 Plus
13:23:52 <moony> new versions of the OS will no longer support ASM programs
13:23:56 <wib_jonas> moony: what exactly would "pulling support" mean?
13:24:03 <moony> wib_jonas: they no longer run.
13:24:26 <moony> they're removing the functionality entirely
13:24:49 <wib_jonas> you can't make them run at all? like, you have to root your calculator before you can even technically run one, as opposed to they just aren't willing to give help and documentation and tell you to run them at your own risk?
13:25:02 <moony> You have to roll back the OS or use a different OS, yes.
13:25:44 <ais523> by asm do you mean actual asm, or do you mean machine code?
13:25:55 <wib_jonas> is there a money-back guarantee with this, where you can get your money back if you claim that you bought the calculator because you wanted to run machine code programs too and get updates?
13:26:05 <moony> ais523: machine code. The official OS has no assembler.
13:26:17 <moony> wib_jonas: I haven't a clue
13:26:43 <moony> at least the security keys for the OS have been an open secret for a long time now
13:26:54 <moony> so "rooting" the device isn't very hard
13:27:24 <moony> they claim they did this to prevent cheating, but imo it doesn't really change anything at all
13:33:14 <rain1> does anyone want to play nim?
13:33:22 <ais523> nim is a solved game, isn't it?
13:33:38 <ais523> A:3 B:1 C:2 is I believe the correct solution there
13:33:51 <ais523> regardless of whether you're playing "all-zeroes wins" or "all-zeroes loses"
13:34:01 <ais523> OK, now I need to know the victory condition to play my next move
13:34:31 <ais523> if all-zeroes wins, I play A:1 B:1 C:0
13:35:49 <ais523> I feel like knowing the solution to a solved game is the sort of skill that could come in handy if you could persuade other people to play it for money, or the like
13:36:11 <rain1> i was surprised you knew a winning move regardless of win condition
13:36:59 <ais523> it only matters at the point when the winning move is to reduce the board to some number of 1s and some number of 0s
13:37:19 <ais523> at the time you do that, you're reducing a 2 or higher (otherwise the board would be in the some-number-of-1s-some-number-of-0s situation already)
13:37:31 <ais523> so depending the win condition you reduce it to either a 0 or a 1 to produce an odd or an even number of 1s
13:37:50 <ais523> * depending on the win condition
13:38:17 <ais523> in all the previous moves, the win condition doesn't matter because if you give the opponent the opportunity to reduce to just 1s and 0s you've lost anyway
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13:46:23 <wib_jonas> I think unqualified Num means the game where all zeroes wins, and there's some fancy name for the one where all zeroes loses
13:47:57 <wib_jonas> also I've read the solution for all zeroes loses once, but I didn't really remember it, so I couldn't have given the winning moves for that for certain
13:48:01 <ais523> it's "misere" with an accent, but I forget which accent and which letter it goes on
13:48:06 <ais523> (although the first e looks like a plausible place)
13:48:41 <ais523> "misère", I just looked it up
13:49:04 <ais523> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mis%C3%A8re
13:49:10 <ais523> apparently the term is more general than just Nim
13:49:25 <ais523> "2. In which a player unable to move wins."
13:49:42 <ais523> I wasn't expecting to see a definition so precisely applicable in a general-purpose dictionary
13:50:59 <wib_jonas> well, wiktionary might not be a typical dictionary for such technical terms
13:52:26 <fizzie> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mis%C3%A8re just has the noun.
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13:55:00 <ais523> I've long thought that in chess, being stalemated should count as a win (this is more interesting than the variant where being stalemated counts as a loss)
13:55:06 <ais523> presumably, that's technically misère chess
13:55:31 <zzo38> ais523: I have seen that idea before, I think.
13:55:52 <ais523> also è is such a pain to type, the grave accent is typed on this layout as altgr-# and because it's a UK keyboard, # is three keys to the right of L, way beyond my normal typing position
14:09:16 <zzo38> wib_jonas: Well, I am not using Unicode, so I have neither the problems nor the benefits of it. Instead, my idea is an extension of the font metric file; each font declares its own precomposed characters (if any).
14:10:19 <zzo38> If you specify a base and accent separately, it will select the precomposed character instead if it is present; if there is no glyph for a precomposed character, it will automatically be decomposed for display (whether the precomposed character was entered explicitly or whether it was automatically converted into the precomposed character).
14:11:03 <wib_jonas> zzo38: sure, but that doesn't change much of what you need here, except when "not using Unicode" means a legacy system like an old text mode video card or printer that can only have a very limited number of precomposed glyphs
14:11:05 <zzo38> But what I mentioned before about ligatures and kerns was for the case where there is no precomposed variant in the font.
14:12:21 <zzo38> (Specifically, that ligatures are always disabled, positive kerns are always enabled, and negative kerns are sometimes enabled or sometimes disabled depending on the height of the adjacent characters.)
14:18:58 <zzo38> I have not actually tried this, so I don't know if this output looks reasonable and whether it is better or worse than what TeX does, but do you know?
14:21:02 <wib_jonas> I don't know, because I think non-precomposed accents don't really come up, outside of math mode, but math mode has very different rules for kerning anyway
14:23:46 <zzo38> The Computer Modern fonts have no precomposed accents, and TeX doesn't have the ability to automatically select a precomposed character when an accent is specified anyways (unless you enter the precomposed character explicitly, which is probably what you would do if you are writing a document in a language other than English, anyways).
14:28:18 <wib_jonas> zzo38: yes, precomposing the accents is implemented in TeX by LaTeX packages, but you usually enter the precomposed character in some encoding, which is also implemented in TeX by some LaTeX packages
14:29:17 <wib_jonas> precomposed characters are necessary both for kerning and for hyphenation
14:30:01 <zzo38> Yes, I did just think of hyphenation, when you mentioned LaTeX packages
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14:31:49 <wib_jonas> implemented by some combination of LaTeX core, and the fontenc, babel, and inputenc LaTeX packages, but I don't know more specifically
14:32:51 <zzo38> I probably do not need to implement hyphenation in TeXnicard (do any card games need it?), although of course the user can still use precomposed accents if they are using a suitable font.
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14:33:23 <ais523> I can imagine that card games that wanted a large font size might want hyphenation
14:33:33 <ais523> because when using a large font size there isn't much space on the card
14:34:00 <wib_jonas> zzo38: I don't know. does TeXnicard want to remain specific to card games, or are you planning to widen its purpose?
14:34:15 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, I suppose that is possible, maybe
14:34:59 <zzo38> wib_jonas: If the purpose is widened, it would probably still only be used for producing decks of cards, even if the cards are not used in a game.
14:35:15 <zzo38> (It isn't intended to be used for typesetting documents.)
14:35:15 <wib_jonas> zzo38: are you even sure that there isn't some obscure M:tG card that uses hyphenation?
14:35:38 <zzo38> wib_jonas: No, although if you know of one, please mention it.
14:35:40 <ais523> if there is it's probably from Alpha or some similarly early set
14:36:27 <wib_jonas> zzo38: https://scryfall.com/card/unh/107/ though you won't find that hyphenation point automatically
14:36:48 <ais523> wow, Alpha's font size is ridiculously variable
14:37:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Yoel * New user account
14:39:27 <ais523> Lure in Alpha is hyphenated
14:39:35 <HackEso> Lure \ 1GG \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ All creatures able to block enchanted creature do so. \ A-U, B-U, U-U, RV-U, 4E-U, IA-U, 5E-U, 6E-U, MM-U, 7E-U, 8ED-U, CHK-U, 10E-U, M12-U, IMA-U \ \ Lure of Prey \ 2GG \ Instant \ Cast this spell only if an opponent cast a creature spell this turn. \ You may put a green creature card from your hand onto the battlefield. \ MI-R \ \ Lurebound Scarecrow \ 3 \ Artifact Creature -- Scarecrow
14:39:56 <ais523> also its wording in Alpha is so much more complicated than the Oracle text :-)
14:40:12 <ais523> https://scryfall.com/card/lea/211/lure
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14:40:43 <zzo38> wib_jonas: Yes, OK, well probably at least at first, I wouldn't implement any hyphenation, but I don't know about in future (but of course someone else can contribute an implementation if they need that feature somehow). Although the unusual formatting in Un-sets is unlikely to be able to be typeset automatically by any program I think (although TeXnicard might still be capable of making the card database).
14:41:25 <ais523> looks like the hyphens stayed until fourth edition
14:42:08 <wib_jonas> ais523: yeah, it has hyphenation even in revised, which means I might have even seen a hyphenated revised card somewhere (not Lure specifically)
14:45:15 <zzo38> I think some writers don't like hyphenation, anyways
14:46:19 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72843&oldid=72836 * UltimateProGrammer * (+793) Added FizzBuzz Example and Optional Commands
14:47:43 <zzo38> Or maybe I could just add support for manually specified hyphens like the \discretionary command in TeX. I found a implementation of the TeX hyphenation in PostScript, so I suppose if someone really wants hyphenation in TeXnicard, they can adapt that PostScript program for use with TeXnicard.
14:48:19 <wib_jonas> it's possible that *modern* M:tG cards don't use hyphenation though, and so it might not be required to support hyphenation if you're making a program to typeset new cards
14:48:46 <ais523> I think TeXnicard isn't meant to be specific to M:tG? just to games in general that are made out of cards with rules on them?
14:48:59 <ais523> (not necessarily even TCGs)
14:49:04 <zzo38> ais523: That is correct.
14:49:57 <wib_jonas> sure, M:tG is just the collectible card game that I'm the most familiar with
14:50:31 <ais523> I'm probably more familiar with Android: Netrunner at this point
14:50:48 <ais523> although I haven't played it much recently bcause the online site isn't very friendly to network problems
14:53:19 <wib_jonas> https://scryfall.com/card/3ed/80/sirens-call another uncommon from Revised that has hyphenation
14:55:49 <zzo38> One of the hyphens there (in "non-wall") is probably explicit, at least.
14:57:10 <wib_jonas> zzo38, ais523: here's a modern hyphenation: https://scryfall.com/card/iko/34/de/blitzsturm-capridor
14:58:13 <ais523> wib_jonas: that's a hard hyphen, not a soft hyphen
14:58:34 <wib_jonas> ais523: no it's not, not inside Kampfschaden
14:58:49 <int-e> Mysteryhunter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_zone
14:59:29 <Mysteryhunter> u.wanna.tell.me.who.has.as.desktop.wallpaper.all.timezones.anything.about.timezones?
15:00:38 <zzo38> The first hyphen seems to be a soft hyphen, the second one hard (based on the text to the right of the picture of the card; I don't know the German words)
15:01:00 <zzo38> Mysteryhunter: Some German word presumably (I don't know what it means). But, what aren't you writing spaces?
15:01:14 <wib_jonas> ais523: compare to https://scryfall.com/card/grn/204/de/tajic-klinge-der-legion where Kampfschaden is not hyphenated, and that's also a recent card so the spelling probably hasn't changed
15:02:45 <wib_jonas> similarly https://scryfall.com/card/m20/132/de/chandras-feuerspucker doesn't hyphenate it
15:02:55 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72844&oldid=72770 * Yoel * (+185)
15:03:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72845&oldid=54802 * Yoel * (+471) /* Converting to Roman numerals */ new section
15:03:33 <zzo38> Mysteryhunter: O, OK, "something like fight damage" makes sense in context.
15:03:35 <Mysteryhunter> yea.there.coffee.and.this.was.energydrink.with.the.curreent.keyboard
15:04:01 <fungot> int-e: so read isn't a function. vs. explicit cps does not necessarily rely on the properties of atoms fall out of fashion as opposed to informal.
15:04:26 <Mysteryhunter> https://twitter.com/MysteryNewsTV/status/1264861721023438848
15:05:18 <zzo38> Corona beer is not related to corona virus, anyways, though.
15:05:32 <int-e> But I guess there's always /ignore.
15:06:46 <esowiki> [[B^2 Turing Completeness]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72846&oldid=72649 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-144) "not proven TC" followed directly by "not TC but BSM"
15:07:26 <esowiki> [[B^2 Turing Completeness]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72847&oldid=72846 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Counter-argument */
15:09:46 <zzo38> Yes, and some people like that beer but some people don't like the Corona beer.
15:09:50 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72848&oldid=72843 * UltimateProGrammer * (+156) Added better unicode support
15:09:56 <moony> Mysteryhunter: I think you're in the wrong place. This isn't a chat channel.
15:10:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:B^2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72849&oldid=72813 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+266)
15:10:46 <Mysteryhunter> so.i'm.a.little.tipsy?(right.word).from.the.one.corona.and.few.drams.of.the.second
15:11:04 <Mysteryhunter> ok.with.the.next.connect.i.leave.got.this.channel.out.of.my.list
15:11:14 <Mysteryhunter> but.till.then.we.can.at.least.have.a.good.time.or.not?
15:11:17 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulam%E2%80%93Warburton_automaton
15:11:36 <moony> Mysteryhunter: you can do /part to leave. Also, I think people here are more interested in discussing computing.
15:11:59 <moony> Freenode is lacking on discussion channels.
15:12:03 <esowiki> [[Jot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72850&oldid=63797 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) /* External resources */ cat
15:12:05 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72851&oldid=72848 * UltimateProGrammer * (+3) fixed grammar
15:12:19 <Mysteryhunter> yes.as.i.said.with.the.next.connection.to.freenode.i.wont.be.in.this.channel.nomore.got.it.out.of.my.list.because.of.what.you.was.sayin
15:12:51 <rain1> The beginnings of automata go back to a conversation Ulam had with Stanislaw Mazur in a coffee house in Lwów Poland when Ulam was twenty in 1929.[11] Ulam worked with John von Neumann during the war years when they became good friends and discussed cellular automaton. Von Neumann’s used these ideas in his concept of a universal constructor and the digital computer. Ulam focussed on biological and
15:12:57 <rain1> ‘crystal like’ patterns publishing a sketch of the growth of a square based cell structure using a simple rule in 1962
15:14:07 <zzo38> rain1: O, I didn't know that.
15:16:34 <zzo38> Mysteryhunter: Do you put timezones in your desktop wallpaper? I don't know of anyone who does; I don't need to deal with timezones that much
15:17:26 <ais523> if I click on the clock on my taskbar-equivalent, it shows times in London, New York, Los Angeles, and UTC
15:17:39 <ais523> I configured it that way to make it easier to understand times stated by Americans
15:17:57 <zzo38> ais523: OK, that makes sense
15:18:50 <zzo38> If I needed such a thing I would probably just make a shell csript which displays times in different timezones
15:20:00 <Mysteryhunter> this.girl.here.is.von.california.he's.from.india.he.from.arabia
15:21:04 <zzo38> On the IRC I can usually see what timezone someone is (if I need that information, which I usually don't) using the TIME client command
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15:22:53 <zzo38> The Ulam-Warburton automaton is one I have seen and used before, although I didn't know it was called that until today.
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15:53:03 <esowiki> [[Parentheses only]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72852&oldid=72842 * Hakerh400 * (+2) /* Computation */ Update the specification
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16:01:15 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Term rewriting metalanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72853&oldid=72828 * Orby * (+448)
16:01:36 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Term rewriting metalanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72854&oldid=72853 * Orby * (+2) /* More thoughts */
16:05:56 <kspalaiologos> I'm planning to implement one for asm2bf, and I've even got the master Brainfuck programmer to aid me in writing microcode
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16:24:46 <ais523> when someone wrote an FPU for INTERCAL, it was based on IEEE float notation, but without denormals, infinities, and similar weird sorts of float
16:25:05 <ais523> that seems like a sensible place to start, potentially
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16:50:36 <esowiki> [[Parentheses only]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72855&oldid=72852 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Computation */
16:51:50 <esowiki> [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72856&oldid=44374 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22) /* Interpreters */ cat
16:52:08 <esowiki> [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72857&oldid=72856 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-13) style
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17:03:40 <imode> I see someone was here to hear me ask about the parentheses thing.
17:05:36 <int-e> fizzie: https://esolangs.org/logs/ seems to be having trouble
17:06:41 <fizzie> I really need to properly debug that thing. All I can tell is that it's got something to do with the stalker mode, and *appears* to be a bug in the civetweb server's websocket support, but it's entirely possible that I'm just using it wrong.
17:08:03 <fizzie> I've restarted it, and it's working again for me. For a little while, anyway.
17:15:38 <fizzie> Here's a random question -- what do you call C++ header files? I've always done .cc for sources, and just used .h for headers, but I'm getting a little tired of adding "// Local Variables:\n// mode: c++\n// End:\n" at the end of every such file in order for Emacs to realize they need c++-mode.
17:15:50 <fizzie> Maybe I should go with .hh then.
17:16:35 <fizzie> I'd need to switch using .cpp for the sources for that, because .cc / .hpp would be just silly.
17:17:18 <imode> I haven't heard of people using .cc.
17:17:52 <imode> I take that back, I think I've seen some projects using that.
17:19:38 <fizzie> Google C++ style uses .cc with plain .h, although I think I adopted that before I knew.
17:20:32 * int-e is using .cc and .h, has considered .hh.
17:21:05 <fizzie> Someone must've probably data-mined GitHub to figure out the relative popularity of each extension.
17:21:15 <int-e> .cpp reminds me of the C preprocessor.
17:22:17 <fizzie> The ones I've heard of are .cpp, .cc, .cxx, .c++ and .C. The last isn't particularly friendly to case-insensitive (esp. non-case-preserving) filesystems.
17:22:50 <int-e> I imagine .c++ also causes trouble on some file systems
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17:27:11 <zzo38> I have mostly seen .cpp, with .h for the header files.
17:28:29 <esowiki> [[Parentheses only]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72858&oldid=72855 * Hakerh400 * (-181) /* Computation */ Group A must have at least two elements at that point, so that sentence was redundant
17:29:15 <b_jonas> fizzie: I call them .h except when I add a new header to a project that already has a filename convention for this
17:30:03 <int-e> no, .hi is taken for Haskell interface files ;)
17:32:17 <zzo38> GCC accepts .cc, .cp, .cxx, .cpp, .CPP, .c++, and .C.
17:33:21 <arseniiv> <int-e> .cpp reminds me of the C preprocessor. => . o O ( C’goheaderomorphic preprocessomorphism )
17:33:31 <zzo38> I don't know, but it isn't listed in the man page
17:35:04 <zzo38> (For header files, the extension is irrelevant unless you want to compile the header files alone, which GCC does implement.)
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17:45:19 <arseniiv> my friend suggested .c which is a three-character extension ending with two `U+2064 INVISIBLE PLUS`es
17:47:21 <rain1> i checked U+2064, it's real
17:48:27 <rain1> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_zmZ23grXE
17:48:42 <fizzie> It also appears to accept .hh, .H, .hp, .hxx, .hpp, .HPP, .h++ and .tcc as C++-specific header extensions.
17:48:53 <arseniiv> rain1: of course it’s real, duh. We live in U+2062 INVISIBLE TIMES :D
17:49:45 <fizzie> `quote INVISIBLE TIMES
17:49:46 <HackEso> 990) <fizzie> "May you live in INVISIBLE TIMES." --Old Chinese proverb. (It can look confusing when written with the proper Unicode.)
17:50:05 <arseniiv> and now he suggested .c⧺ (U+29FA DOUBLE PLUS)
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17:51:24 <fizzie> .c‡ might also be an option.
17:52:46 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: if you want to write a floating point unit, look at https://bellard.org/softfp/ , which contains the original softfp library by Bellard as well as the larger qemu softfloat library that emulates almost enough operations to be used in qemu for the rare non-hardware-accelerated floating point case
17:53:09 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: plus obviously look at TAOCP chapter 4
17:53:17 <kspalaiologos> I've got a better idea on implementing my floating point stuff
17:53:30 <arseniiv> fizzie: ‡ isn’t that quite a double dagger to shoot oneself in the leg with
17:53:33 <kspalaiologos> IEEE754 and such are the worst thing to implement in Brainfuck
17:53:47 <kspalaiologos> my system will be simply based on fractions, mostly on performance / size / simplicity ratio
17:54:00 <rain1> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr28DwXeyu0
17:54:02 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: for that I can just say that I wouldn't want to implement anything in brainfuck
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17:54:24 <b_jonas> and if implementing IEEE754 is hard, that is just another extra evidence for that
17:54:34 <kspalaiologos> b_jonas, well, you won't implement, while I'm willing to
17:54:49 <b_jonas> ok, I'm just giving a hint
17:54:49 <kspalaiologos> and so far IEEE754 is the worst way to approach this problem
17:55:00 <b_jonas> I'm not saying that you should use that library as is
17:55:12 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: the best floating point is a fixed point :?
17:55:17 <rain1> http://www.ventrella.com/Clusters/
17:55:37 <kspalaiologos> but it's quite hard to write performant routines for that
17:58:56 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: oh, have you also heard about posit arithmetic and something like that? I think I asked about them here but now I absolutely don’t remember what the opinion on their usefulness or novelty was
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18:14:40 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72860&oldid=72859 * Gamer * (+88)
18:15:58 <arseniiv> rain1: I saw this interesting idea at CodeParade’s channel too but it seems underdeveloped for me so far. You can get many behaviors that way, but I think not as many as one’d want. Also I’m afraid numeric errors may have unwanted effects on the simulation when doing it with different time steps(?)
18:16:19 <rain1> yeah i think that's a valid concern
18:16:35 <rain1> it's less deep than cellular automata, because they are more exact
18:17:15 <arseniiv> also have anybody seen CA on a random(ish) tesselations of a plane? I think the idea is old but I haven’t seen its implementations (I think)
18:17:48 <esowiki> [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72861&oldid=69683 * Gamer * (-31) /* Computational class */
18:19:59 <arseniiv> <rain1> it's less deep than cellular automata, because they are more exact => OTOH I think it would be interesting to watch a particle or cellular automaton which uses a controlled randomness, something like temperature in simulated annealing. For example particles could appear and vanish out of nowhere, or cell states change; maybe not all kinds of particles and not all kinds of states being inflicted
18:21:57 <arseniiv> it reminds me my few experiments with a random and… unlearned neural net which I used to make stereo sounds (by taking the output from two randomly preselected neurons), which for the sake of fun was slowly mutated (via adding random values to its weight matrix) with a specified rate
18:23:03 <arseniiv> if someone is even interested, here are several interesting results (a small part of those I generated, and even those were manually generated so in principle there could be much more interesting pieces)
18:23:44 <arseniiv> https://freesound.org/people/arseniiv/packs/22686/
18:26:39 <arseniiv> if I only would come up with a simple way to randomize a weight matrix in much more interesting ways than just independent uniform variates, then maybe interesting sounds would come in abundance (for some extent)
18:27:31 <arseniiv> (I’d be very glad to hear something if someone will come up with more interesting results!)
18:31:03 <arseniiv> oh, I forgot to warn that these sounds are pretty harsh
18:31:33 <arseniiv> hopefully that’s expected of sounds by an untrained neural net
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18:37:10 <arseniiv> main sources of harshness there are probably strong distortion due to tanh and the sample rate, as cyclic processes with frequencies only a small integer divisor less than the Nyquist frequency are expected to be very common there
18:38:58 <imode> that particle automaton is pretty impressive but ultimately not robust enough for what traditional CAs are intended for.
18:45:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72862&oldid=72845 * Yoel * (-25) /* Converting to Roman numerals */
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19:22:49 <esowiki> [[Eval]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72864&oldid=72776 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12) /* Hello, World! */
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20:05:11 <esowiki> [[Pluso]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72871&oldid=58304 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+92) /* Ruby */ cats
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20:17:20 <HackEso> olist 1203: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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23:42:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nispenispe * New user account
23:49:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72891&oldid=72844 * Nispenispe * (+192) Did the thing. I think
23:49:27 <esowiki> [[Var'aq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72892&oldid=46923 * Nispenispe * (-4) Reocities is offline. Oocities is the latest geocities mirror site.
00:06:35 <tswett[m]> So I've been trying to figure out how to do math without resorting to any of this nasty "set theory" or "function" stuff. :D
00:07:17 <tswett[m]> So I've decided to study universal algebra. There seems to be a lot you can do in universal algebra without relying on a foundational theory.
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02:22:35 <imode> https://www.nicolasloizeau.com/gol-computer
02:23:14 <imode> things like this make me want to revisit the idea of building a target + "compiler suite" for a string rewriting language, much like traditional FPGA tooling.
02:24:07 <imode> though I guess it'd be easier to design something like this because you can build stuff like logic gate layout systems: https://github.com/nicolasloizeau/guigl
02:24:25 <imode> whereas you're limited to 1D with string rewriting.
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10:46:04 <rain1> any cool eso stuff i should be aware of?
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12:47:37 <esowiki> [[Bin-8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72900&oldid=67489 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+252) cats + interpretr
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15:07:54 <esowiki> [[Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72915&oldid=67029 * Yoel * (+89) /* Sample programs */
15:09:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72916&oldid=72914 * Yoel * (+2) /* Converting to Roman numerals */
15:20:17 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72917&oldid=72889 * Digital Hunter * (-32)
15:22:40 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72918&oldid=72917 * Digital Hunter * (+353) /* Examples */
15:23:36 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72919&oldid=72918 * Digital Hunter * (+8) /* Examples */
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16:00:00 <imode> thue hooked up to CGI would be a disasterpiece. I wanna do it.
16:02:12 <Taneb> imode: I encourage this
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16:24:25 <imode> I wonder if that's been done with brainfuck.
16:28:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72920&oldid=72916 * Yoel * (-1395) There was a flow in the code provided: wrong result in about 5% cases
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19:16:09 <andrew_esolang> all data in a program is "sentient" and can either be entirely truthful or lie about itself
19:17:08 <andrew_esolang> there are "correctors" who will tell the real situation of data to an OP which gives it false situations
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20:10:46 <esowiki> [[Category:Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72922&oldid=8165 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0)
20:11:26 <esowiki> [[QO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72923&oldid=44891 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* See also */ cat
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20:54:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:I like frog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72925&oldid=71413 * Apollyon094 * (+877)
20:55:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:I like frog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72926&oldid=72925 * Apollyon094 * (+23)
20:55:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:I like frog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72927&oldid=72926 * Apollyon094 * (+5)
20:57:53 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72928&oldid=69765 * Apollyon094 * (+244)
21:17:35 <esowiki> [[User:Apollyon094]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72929&oldid=71092 * Apollyon094 * (+501)
21:18:08 <esowiki> [[User:Apollyon094]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72930&oldid=72929 * Apollyon094 * (-12)
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23:07:47 <shachaf> "In homotopy type theory, van Doorn verifies that the smash product is a 1-coherent symmetric monoidal product by first proving the isomorphism A →_∗ (B →_∗ C) ≃ (A ∧ B) →_∗ C and using this to obtain the other results [vD18]."
23:07:52 <shachaf> Taneb: did you do this twh
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23:44:50 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72933&oldid=72911 * UltimateProGrammer * (+1220) Added hello world
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00:16:21 <b_jonas> apparently in CSS simple selector syntax for selecting by id or class, if the name of the id or class contains a dot or colon, you can escape that to CSS by putting a backspace before those characters. good to know.
00:27:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72934&oldid=72920 * Yoel * (+160) /* Converting to Roman numerals */
00:28:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72935&oldid=72934 * Yoel * (+71) /* Converting to Roman numerals */
00:29:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72936&oldid=72935 * Yoel * (+8) /* Converting to Roman numerals */
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01:48:21 <shachaf> b_jonas: A backspace as in U+0008?
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03:29:33 <zzo38> I thought of a variant of Magic: the Gathering involving poker. You can play any variant of poker (draw, five-card stud, seven-card stud, Hold'em, etc) and and kind of betting limits (fixed-limit, spread-limit, pot-limit, no-limit, etc), and any number of players.
03:30:54 <zzo38> First, the players must agree on a shared deck, with at least enough cards for the selected variant of poker and number of players, but it can be more. Normal deck restrictions do not apply to this shared deck. Ensure all players know what it contains.
03:32:34 <zzo38> Next, do duplicate sealed with any set(s) or a cube; each player gets a copy of those cards as his sideboard, plus any conventional basic lands that player wants (which can also be added later; they need not be added right away).
03:36:35 <zzo38> Next, do poker game, using the shared deck only. When it is time to compare the cards to see who has a better hand, instead do not show any hidden cards to other players but instead play Magic: the Gathering. If there are any community cards (as in Texas Hold'em, for example), each player gets a copy of those cards.
03:38:35 <zzo38> Play for ante, using a deck constructed from the sealed cards plus any conventional basic lands that player wants, but the minimum deck size is now 33 cards instead of 40 cards. Do not draw an initial hand; instead your initial hand is the cards available to you from the poker game.
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04:02:53 <zzo38> There is no mulligan (although subgames still draw cards at random and mulligan is possible). Each player may, once per game as a special action, create a basic land token with a subtype of that player's choice.
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04:04:49 <zzo38> If the initial ante card is a conventional basic land, put it on the bottom of your library and ante another card; repeat until you find one which isn't a conventional basic land. If your entire deck is conventional basic lands, then you are disqualified. (This rule does not apply to ante done later during the game; it only applies to the initial ante.)
04:06:38 <zzo38> Once the game is finished, if the number of winners is not exactly one, all ownership changes are reverted. If there is exactly one winner, then for each card he has gained or lost ownership of, he chooses whether to keep it for the rest of the match or not; if he keeps it, he pays back a proportion of his winnings (only that beyond his bet, though). The proportion is by the number of cards he can choose in this way, and is rounded up.
04:07:08 <zzo38> All shared cards are now returned to the shared deck and do again, until only one player has poker chips remaining.
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04:08:11 <zzo38> That is all (I think).
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07:09:40 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, a backslash. sorry.
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13:05:57 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-spiral_semigroup
13:06:13 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicyclic_semigroup
13:06:18 <rain1> I found a good topic to study: semigroups
13:15:47 <int-e> (this makes more sense if you pronounce "disunited" wrongly)
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13:40:27 <esowiki> [[Spoon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72938&oldid=66267 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* See also */
13:40:44 <esowiki> [[Spoon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72939&oldid=72938 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) /* See also */
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13:42:04 <esowiki> [[You are Reading the Name of this Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72940&oldid=46111 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* See also */
13:43:19 <esowiki> [[You are Reading the Name of this Esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72941&oldid=72940 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+34) /* External resources */ link
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13:56:13 <esowiki> [[Exp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72942&oldid=71602 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5)
14:00:35 <esowiki> [[B sharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72943&oldid=68160 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9)
14:01:00 <esowiki> [[D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72944&oldid=67091 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33)
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14:03:11 <esowiki> [[IBC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72945&oldid=70394 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+179) /* Delete System32 */
14:03:30 <esowiki> [[IBC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72946&oldid=72945 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) 2019
14:07:01 <esowiki> [[MangularJS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72947&oldid=72563 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* See also */
14:07:14 <cpressey> I'm implementing the lambda calculus so that I can experience firsthand the road to madness that alpha-conversion is.
14:08:11 <esowiki> [[HaltJS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72948&oldid=71609 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5)
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14:14:32 <arseniiv_> cpressey: there is no alpha-conversion, there are only de Bruijn indices :p
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14:15:38 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72950&oldid=72933 * UltimateProGrammer * (+54)
14:16:10 <esowiki> [[3LEB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72951&oldid=72899 * Hanzlu * (+520)
14:16:50 <int-e> arseniiv: Substitution with de Bruijn indices is no joy either. It's just harder to get subtly wrong.
14:18:04 <int-e> (mainly because there are fewer degrees of freedom)
14:18:42 <cpressey> Well, I'm trying to start with a naive implementation, and then refactor it into a more sophisticated version. I lack test cases though.
14:20:17 <cpressey> I do agree with the idea that the set of bound variable names, and the set of free variable names, should be disjoint. (whether the bound variable "names" are de Bruijn indices or not.)
14:21:07 <cpressey> I mean, I can see how that makes things cleaner. I'm not there yet though.
14:21:26 <arseniiv> int-e: rain1: yesterday I thought about the way to make a monoid from a semigroup and that some people think of semigroups as unnecessary because of that, but I realized there should be a lot of examples when we can’t adjoin a synthetic identity element to a semigroup, e. g. when this is a multiplicative semigroup of a semiring: how would we define addition with this synthetic 1, it may be in some cases that there are no natural choic
14:21:26 <arseniiv> e, or a couple of them. And this generalizes to an arbitraty algebraic structure being accidentally a semigroup for one of its operations
14:22:05 <arseniiv> also there is a much simpler argument that morphism of semigroups which are by chance monoids isn’t necessary a monoid morphism
14:22:38 <int-e> cpressey: that helps a lot if you never beta-reduce under a lambda. otherwise the distinction of free and bound becomes blurry
14:22:47 <arseniiv> <int-e> (mainly because there are fewer degrees of freedom) => so that’s better anyway!
14:24:40 <arseniiv> cpressey: you can also use indices for free variables. At first to me that seemed a bit strange and unnecessary, but seeing the implementation in Pierce’s TaPL fleshed out more, I think that idea is a reasonable completion, and maybe the only one, of dB indices
14:25:30 <arseniiv> this solves a problem naming bound variables closer to what the user of the language called them before the conversion to indices
14:28:34 <arseniiv> but I have to admit, I never implemented this version
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14:36:31 <int-e> cpressey: here's a fun closed term: \d. (\f z. f (f (f (f (f z))))) (\c b x. c (b x)) d
14:38:32 <int-e> Which reduces to \z b x x1 x2 x3 x4. z (b x x1 x2 x3 x4) which requires more distinct bound variables than it started out with.
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14:43:27 <cpressey> int-e: I would like to use that as a test case. I need to write a parser first though -- even translating that by hand to my data structure might introduce an error :)
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15:01:14 <esowiki> [[OneFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72952&oldid=51983 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-14) /* Added instructions */
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15:13:15 <cpressey> None of this is helped by the apparent fact that I have the attention span of a gnat today.
15:31:00 <esowiki> [[3LEB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72953&oldid=72951 * Hanzlu * (+614)
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16:01:20 <esowiki> [[Shatner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72955&oldid=46949 * Occular * (+121)
16:01:49 <esowiki> [[Shatner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72956&oldid=72955 * Occular * (-4)
16:02:30 <esowiki> [[Forbin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72957 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+443) Created page with "{{PageWIP}] '''Forbin''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Examples== ===[[Hello World]]=== main { out 01001000; out 01100101; out 01101100; ou..."
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17:09:41 <esowiki> [[ADxc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72962&oldid=68253 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+94) cats + style
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17:40:09 <esowiki> [[User:Orby/Term rewriting metalanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72964&oldid=72854 * Orby * (+1183)
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18:13:12 <esowiki> [[Forbin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72965&oldid=72958 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+182)
18:17:20 <esowiki> [[Trml]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=72966 * Orby * (+2079) Creating Trml term-rewriting metalanguage page
18:18:59 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72967&oldid=72797 * Orby * (+73)
18:19:33 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72968&oldid=72967 * Orby * (-84) /* Ideas in progress */
18:24:27 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72969&oldid=72968 * Orby * (+0) /* Metalanguages */
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18:45:14 <esowiki> [[Trml]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72970&oldid=72966 * Orby * (+432) /* Matrioshka language */
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18:57:03 <esowiki> [[Trml]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72971&oldid=72970 * Orby * (+175) /* Term statements */
18:58:55 <esowiki> [[Trml]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72972&oldid=72971 * Orby * (+81) /* Term statements */
19:05:48 <arseniiv> hi all again, does anybody know an example of an S-expression rewriting esolang? (analogous to Markov algorithm or Thue)
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19:33:52 <orbitaldecay> Trml is a work in progress which may suit your needs
19:34:57 <arseniiv> orbitaldecay: any working esolang, though better it had a complete description
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19:35:17 <arseniiv> though I made up something right now and I think I’m lazy to implement it
19:39:17 <zzo38> You can write the description of it even if it is not yet implemented
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20:32:27 <esowiki> [[Trml]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72975&oldid=72972 * Orby * (+179) /* Rule statements */
20:34:52 <esowiki> [[Forbin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72976&oldid=72965 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+195) /* Hello World */
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23:55:26 <imode> @tell arseniiv modal is an example of this.
23:56:26 <imode> orbitaldecay: what's Trml?
00:00:06 <orbitaldecay> imode: a term rewriting metalanguage. Like thue for term rewriting languages. How clear is the page?
00:00:56 <orbitaldecay> It was the result of an evolution of thoughts and I'm wondering how well I described it on the page
00:11:02 <imode> have you seen my attempt at a term rewriting lang?
00:12:10 <imode> https://hatebin.com/bndqcbpthq
00:12:39 <imode> oh, that's a non-working ver.
00:12:57 <imode> https://hatebin.com/ierbsdhqph better.
00:14:28 <imode> it was enough that I was able to write quicksort in it.
00:14:35 <esowiki> [[There Once was an Esolang Named Fred]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72979&oldid=72807 * Baidicoot * (+1225)
00:15:44 <imode> https://git.imode.tech/?p=python/modal;a=blob;f=modal.py;hb=HEAD here's the interpreter that goes along with it.
00:30:10 <orbitaldecay> imode: I was checking out the basic idea the other day. Will have to take a look at the interpretter when I'm in front of my computer. Bookmarking now.
01:02:53 <imode> cool. your solutions are probably more elegant. mine are dirty hacks.
01:17:05 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72980&oldid=72950 * UltimateProGrammer * (-290) Changed FizzBuzz Example and Added note about implementation
01:19:01 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72981&oldid=72980 * UltimateProGrammer * (+72) Added ascii implementation note
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03:19:35 <esowiki> [[Symbols]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72982&oldid=70773 * Voltage2007 * (+527)
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03:40:50 <esowiki> [[1argasm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72983&oldid=65081 * Voltage2007 * (+128)
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05:52:55 <zzo38> Now I managed to get kerning and ligatures working (although ligatures other than =: are not yet tested, although I think Computer Modern fonts don't use other kind of ligatures and I don't know what fonts would use such ligatures).
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06:46:54 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Untitled 4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72984&oldid=72896 * Zzo38 * (+291)
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07:29:50 <esowiki> [[Assemblei]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72985&oldid=69255 * Oklomsy * (+138) /* Interpreter */
07:33:10 <esowiki> [[Assemblei]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72986&oldid=72985 * Oklomsy * (-57)
07:36:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think there's a ?` ligature
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09:39:08 <rain1> > the Garden of Eden theorem, stating that a cellular automaton has a configuration with no predecessor if and only if it has two different asymptotic configurations which evolve to the same configuration
09:39:11 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:12: error: parse error on input ‘of’
09:39:12 <rain1> is this hard to prove?
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10:03:21 <cpressey> rain1: it certainly sounds like it'd be hard to prove, but I don't really know. what's an "asymptotic configuration"?
10:05:19 <rain1> i will try to find out
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10:06:58 <rain1> i x,y are asymptotic if diff(x,y) is finite
10:07:30 <rain1> diff(x,y) is the set of configurations where they do not agree at time t
10:07:50 <rain1> so basically we are looking for two configurations which end up in the same state eventually
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11:01:19 <cpressey> Oh, if and only if *the cellular automaton* has two different asymptotic configurations. I was misreading it slightly.
11:02:05 <cpressey> If two different configurations converge, then there exists a configuration to which no other configuration evolves
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11:16:54 <ais523> <arseniiv> hi all again, does anybody know an example of an S-expression rewriting esolang? (analogous to Markov algorithm or Thue) ← Precognition, but it's unimplemented
11:17:11 <ais523> it's fully designed though
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13:11:37 <cpressey> rain1: I think I understand it a little better thinking about the converse -- if there do not exist two converging configurations, then there does not exist a Garden of Eden either. It sounds like it's related to reversibility.
13:13:01 <rain1> being able to reverse all patterns would rule out a garden of eden
13:14:12 <cpressey> Yes, that'd be the "if" direction, still not sure how the "only if" direction goes though.
13:14:25 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72987&oldid=72981 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-6) /* Implementation */
13:14:52 <cpressey> But tbh I'm not thinking very hard about it. It might in fact be easy to show once you get all the parts together.
13:19:57 <esowiki> [[Alphaprint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72988&oldid=72325 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Resources */
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13:39:23 <esowiki> [[Trml]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72989&oldid=72975 * Orby * (+256)
13:57:19 <esowiki> [[Code is eso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72990&oldid=67731 * DmilkaSTD * (-1289) Replaced content with "Getting remake."
14:00:19 <esowiki> [[Code is eso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72991&oldid=72990 * DmilkaSTD * (-8)
14:02:19 <esowiki> [[Code is eso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72992&oldid=72991 * DmilkaSTD * (+92)
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14:18:37 <arseniiv> @tell imode oh! Maybe that’s why I sensed I encountered something like that not long ago!
14:19:56 <arseniiv> though IIRC it doesn’t work like a Markov algorithm would, having a specific order of rules very important to execution results
14:30:37 <cpressey> arseniiv: ah, you want non-deterministic tree-rewriting? (I mean: what Thue calls "non-deterministic")
14:35:25 <arseniiv> cpressey: maybe non-deterministic is also an option! (MA, on the other hand, is deterministic.) Though right now I don’t want the language badly, that was just an option for writing a simple register machine implementation to add to my friend’s repo of various idiomatic implementations of the same machine with the same functionality in different languages. We also consider writing that machine in itself, but I’m lazy to begin. The
14:35:25 <arseniiv> n I thought maybe I’ll be able to write the impl in MA, but that quickly proven itself *very* tarpit-y and I quitted
14:40:48 <cpressey> To be clear, I don't mean really non-deterministic, I mean, like Thue, you are given no guarantee of the order that the rewrites will happen (so if you want your program to have consistent behaviour, you need to code those guards into your program.)
14:42:16 <cpressey> I can never tell with this word
14:42:27 <cpressey> I don't know enough about Markov algorithms to say
14:42:58 <cpressey> I tend to confuse it with "Markov chain" which I do tend to think of as something generated with a random factor
14:43:36 <cpressey> At any rate, I don't think I've seen a term-rewriting version of Thue, which is basically what I was thnking of
14:47:41 <arseniiv> cpressey: yeah yesterday I almost wrote “Markov chain” several times too when mentioning them in another place
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15:00:10 <esowiki> [[LogicF---]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72993&oldid=71066 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) /* Infinite loop */
15:07:42 <esowiki> [[Interfrac]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72994&oldid=65924 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* See also */
15:08:39 <esowiki> [[Comefrom0x10]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72995&oldid=70900 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0)
15:11:14 <esowiki> [[Category:Implemented]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72996&oldid=7903 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1)
15:15:48 <esowiki> [[Ais523]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72997&oldid=53460 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14)
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15:47:19 <arseniiv> woah, I’ve came up with a datatype “a complex number z with |z| ≤ 1”. One can overflow on addition, but not multiplication, and maybe one also could use as literals only numbers of form exp(i t) with t from a fixed finite subset of reals
15:48:58 <arseniiv> adding a special value ∞ to this type in lieu of IEEE 754 can be useful^W esoful, moreso if arithmetic is defined with it in a weird way
15:51:51 <arseniiv> of course having a value of that type represented by a pair of regular IEEE 754 float64s is also quite eso in runtime behaviour (an expression may overflow suddenly when mathematically its value is in the disk)
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16:05:17 <FreeFull> arseniiv: It would probably be easier to represent it as a magnitude, angle pair
16:05:51 <arseniiv> FreeFull: but not as eso! Though this way addition and subtraction would get weird rounding errors, I like it
16:06:17 <FreeFull> Right, a + ib makes it easier to do addition
16:06:32 <arseniiv> also I think ∞ should be printed and read as “FAR”
16:06:35 <FreeFull> r*exp(i t) makes it easier to do multiplication
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17:33:39 <esowiki> [[History (programming language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=72999&oldid=68209 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23)
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18:45:01 <esowiki> [[BFStack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73004&oldid=70657 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) /* Computational class */ cats
18:47:37 <esowiki> [[BFStack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73005&oldid=73004 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+189)
18:52:49 <esowiki> [[Code is eso]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73006&oldid=72992 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31)
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18:57:05 <zzo38> C has setjmp/longjmp, and some other programming languages have try/catch blocks. But what I would want is setjmp/longjmp with cleanup blocks.
19:05:12 <esowiki> [[Ruby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73007&oldid=64847 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-19) rm redcat
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19:07:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: you'll have to implement that yourself using exceptions then
19:08:23 <fizzie> Hmm, call-with-current-continuation and dynamic-wind together are a *little* bit like "setjmp/longjmp with cleanup blocks".
19:08:55 <b_jonas> oh yeah, that scheme thing
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19:40:11 <zzo38> I don't know if LLVM supports it. I read the document about exception handling, which mentions setjmp/longjmp, although I don't know what things are possible.
19:41:44 <zzo38> I also thought of using setjmp/longjmp where a function stores the previous value of the jump buffer in a local variable before calling setjmp, and then restores it when it is finished, but this won't work so well if you are calling an external library which calls back into your program if that external library needs cleanup.
19:59:03 <esowiki> [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73014&oldid=71155 * Apollyon094 * (+520)
20:00:25 <esowiki> [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73015&oldid=73014 * Apollyon094 * (-36)
20:04:12 <zzo38> Glulx has catch and throw, which is a bit like setjmp/longjmp, although the data needed to restore the position is allocated on the stack instead of in a separate variable (and in Glulx, the stack belongs to a separate address space).
20:04:14 <esowiki> [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73016&oldid=73015 * Apollyon094 * (-147)
20:04:56 <esowiki> [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73017&oldid=73016 * Apollyon094 * (-5)
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21:20:27 <esowiki> [[SpaghettiScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73018&oldid=72987 * UltimateProGrammer * (+62) Updated hello world+added note about functions being made in functions
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22:10:35 <esowiki> [[GUI4BF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73019&oldid=44581 * DmilkaSTD * (+220)
22:11:38 <esowiki> [[GUI4BF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73020&oldid=73019 * DmilkaSTD * (+4)
22:30:14 <esowiki> [[Pikobrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73021&oldid=70661 * DmilkaSTD * (+181)
22:31:37 <esowiki> [[Pikobrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73022&oldid=73021 * DmilkaSTD * (+34)
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23:24:14 <esowiki> [[Brainmaker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73027&oldid=73026 * DmilkaSTD * (+48)
23:28:04 <esowiki> [[User talk:Moon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73028&oldid=66555 * DmilkaSTD * (+194)
23:29:13 <esowiki> [[User talk:Moon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73029&oldid=73028 * DmilkaSTD * (-31)
23:37:29 <esowiki> [[1mpr0mp2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73030&oldid=45662 * DmilkaSTD * (+10)
23:38:01 <esowiki> [[1mpr0mp2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73031&oldid=73030 * DmilkaSTD * (+10)
23:43:19 <esowiki> [[BF-PDA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73032&oldid=62331 * DmilkaSTD * (+14)
23:52:09 <esowiki> [[Snigl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73033&oldid=66715 * DmilkaSTD * (+10)
23:59:22 <esowiki> [[Multiply]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73034&oldid=68200 * DmilkaSTD * (+91)
00:03:24 <esowiki> [[Meander]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73035&oldid=40142 * DmilkaSTD * (+17) User:
00:04:36 <esowiki> [[Crazy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73036&oldid=66392 * DmilkaSTD * (+11) - User:
00:08:21 <esowiki> [[User talk:TehZ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73037&oldid=34795 * DmilkaSTD * (+139)
00:10:45 <esowiki> [[Minebit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73038&oldid=49761 * DmilkaSTD * (+5) - User: + M
00:11:52 <esowiki> [[Minebit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73039&oldid=73038 * DmilkaSTD * (-5) t
00:12:27 <esowiki> [[Minebit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73040&oldid=73039 * DmilkaSTD * (+5) -t
00:21:32 <esowiki> [[Brainmaker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73041&oldid=73027 * DmilkaSTD * (-48) I was ignorant
00:22:25 <esowiki> [[Brainmaker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73042&oldid=73041 * DmilkaSTD * (+48) mess
00:23:14 <esowiki> [[Brainmaker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73043&oldid=73042 * DmilkaSTD * (-64) Sorry ;-;
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05:23:08 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SummerGlau * New user account
05:42:06 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73044&oldid=72891 * SummerGlau * (+240) Introducing Summer Glau
05:43:06 <esowiki> [[Rockstar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73045&oldid=60530 * SummerGlau * (+95) Add the excellent NDC conference video link (timing to Rockstar sequence but all the conference is great to see!)
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08:34:47 <cpressey> On the subject of semigroups. You can take the quotient of a semigroup by an equivalence relation to get another semigroup. The notation is: S/~ is the quotient semigroup of S.
08:35:34 <cpressey> But what if S/~ has more structure that just a semigroup? Can you say, "S/~ is the quotient group of the semigroup S"?
08:35:59 <cpressey> I mean, I'm sure you *can*, but to what extent do you have to explain the situation
08:36:10 <Taneb> I'd say "C/~ is a quotient semigroup of the semigroup S that happens to have a group structure"
08:36:52 <Taneb> I once had a semigroup theory lecture interrupted by a fire
08:40:59 <cpressey> Oh dear. I do hope those two events were mostly coincidental.
08:41:17 <cpressey> Would hate to think of a group of arsonists with something against abstract algebra.
08:46:18 <Taneb> Nah, it was a kitchen fire in a cafeteria nearby
08:47:11 <Taneb> Still, was rather exciting at the time
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08:49:51 <rain1> hey cpressey I finished reading "A tantalising introduction to semigroups" today
08:50:54 <rain1> yes in group theory we do G/N quotient by a normal subgroups
08:51:30 <rain1> in semigroup theory we quotient by compatable relations the kernel relation is defined for any homomorphism between semigroups
08:57:00 <cpressey> The reason I'm interested is because I want to write a better explanation of Burro. If B is the set of Burro program texts and ~ is the equivalence relation "represents the same Burro program", then B/~ is the set of Burro programs. B is a monoid but B/~ is a group.
09:03:53 <cpressey> Because B/~ is a group, for every program a in B/~ there exists a unique program b in B/~ s.t. a*b=e, where * is composition and e is the null program.
09:06:29 <cpressey> This induces: For every program text a in B there exists a program text b in B such that a/~ * b/~ = e/~ -- so to speak.
09:11:08 <cpressey> run(a)*run(b)=run("") might be a clearer way to express that. Or indeed [[a]]*[[b]]=[[]].
09:11:49 <cpressey> It's the evaluation function that induces the equivalence relation, after all.
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09:34:45 <cpressey> Weird. Half the internet just died for me. GitHub, DuckDuckGo, BBC -- none of them work. But my site still does, and other smaller sites.
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09:39:16 <cpressey> Google and Slack are down, too. But, like, my bank's site is still up.
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10:12:54 <cpressey> esolangs.org is still up, that's good
10:13:52 <Taneb> That's the only important website
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12:33:36 <ais523> <cpressey> Weird. Half the internet just died for me. ← perhaps your DNS server died? then you'd only be able to visit sites for which your browser had the IP address cached
12:34:29 <ais523> (or where the IP address had been cached by some other part of your network stack)
12:35:32 <int-e> hmm. Does Not Serve
12:39:34 <shachaf> My naive sudoku DPLL solver was much faster than my somewhat less naive DPLL SAT solver at solving sudoku puzzles.
12:39:44 <shachaf> At first I was frustrated by it, but then I realized my encoding was bad:
12:40:22 <shachaf> I gave it constraints like "at least one of each digit in each row", where I should have given it "at most one" instead, since that was truer to what the direct solver was doing.
12:41:03 <ais523> would giving /both/ constraints make it faster or slower?
12:41:29 <ais523> my intuition says that the more constraints you can give a SAT solver, the better; but I don't know whether that's true for algorithms used by SAT solvers in practice
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12:43:43 <shachaf> I suspect it's mostly true, unless the clauses are pretty useless.
12:44:01 <shachaf> I don't know that these "at least" clauses are very useful.
12:46:23 <shachaf> Also, my naive sudoku solver was fast on the few instances I tried it on, but when I tried it on a bunch more it took as much as 70 seconds.
12:47:58 <shachaf> (I wrote it in Python in about 20 minutes a few months ago, it's not meant to be fast or anything.)
12:48:27 <shachaf> I wonder whether random variable ordering + Luby restarts would speed it up a lot. Probably?
12:50:12 <ais523> this reminds me of the time when there was a spontaneous unofficial competition to write Polarium solvers
12:50:16 <ais523> the winner turned out to be a SAT solver
12:50:25 <ais523> configured to understand Polarium
12:52:06 <ais523> (the rules of Polarium: you have an m by n grid, the cells at the border are all gray, the others are each either black or white; you need to come up with a continuous non-self-intersecting path of squares connected at their edges, starting and ending anywhere, that for each horizontal row on the grid, either goes through every black square on the row but no white squares, or through every white square on the grid but no black squares)
12:53:23 <shachaf> Every white square on the grid?
12:54:35 <ais523> it strikes me that there's no particular reason why puzzles should confine themselves to gray squares at the border but nowhere else, but that seems to be the convention
12:56:56 <shachaf> Is it http://bach.istc.kobe-u.ac.jp/copris/puzzles/polarium/index.html ?
12:57:37 <shachaf> I should make my SAT solver good.
12:57:48 <shachaf> I bet it's not that much more work to make it acceptable.
12:59:55 <ais523> that appears to be a solver for the same puzzle, although it appears to have been created independently of our competition
13:00:13 <ais523> yes, it was created before the competition started
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16:02:37 <arseniiv_> linear algebra isn’t free of foundational issues even in interesting parts: “for U a subspace of V there exists a subspace U′ ⊂ V st U ⊕ U′ = V” requires axiom of choice
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16:04:11 <arseniiv> “Hom(U, V) is nonempty for any subspace U of V” too
16:07:31 <arseniiv> I stumbled upon these when proving that the only linear operators commuting with any other are scalar ones: if the space has no structures on it and is not finite-dimensional, we’ll need either U′ or a map from above to complete two operators making counterexamples to the two exhaustive cases when an operator fails to be a scalar one
16:08:23 <arseniiv> the proof modulo invocation of those “foundational-issue-y” facts is almost trivial and neat
16:08:41 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I heard that you need the axiom of choice to prove that vector spaces have a vector space basis, but not that you already need it for that first statement
16:08:59 <b_jonas> but I guess it makes sense in hindsight
16:11:23 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I was said AC is needed for the ⊕ thing at least
16:11:44 <arseniiv> and hopefully they are interchangeable…
16:12:15 <Taneb> I find it interesting that in ZF¬C, there's a vector space without a basis
16:13:52 <arseniiv> Taneb: ah! You reminded I wanted to see what that scalar operator theorem turns into in this case. It seems there should exist an “all-commuting” operator which isn’t scalar?
16:24:11 <arseniiv> hm this way it feels too strong. I think it should be just “may exist”? even in ZF¬C, not just in ZF
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17:06:07 <b_jonas> `learn_append california//. WARNING: The area of California is made of chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm.
17:06:08 <HackEso> Usage: le/rn_append keyword//Text you'd like to append.
17:06:18 <b_jonas> `le/rn_append california//. WARNING: The area of California is made of chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm.
17:06:20 <HackEso> Learned 'california': California is pronounced "Caliphate-ornery-I-A" . WARNING: The area of California is made of chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm.
17:06:51 <b_jonas> ``` sed -i 's/" ./"./' /hackenv/wisdom/california
17:06:53 <HackEso> /hackenv/wisdom/california//California is pronounced "Caliphate-ornery-I-A". WARNING: The area of California is made of chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm.
17:07:02 <HackEso> California is pronounced "Caliphate-ornery-I-A". WARNING: The area of California is made of chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm.
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18:15:48 <zzo38> In LLVM, what are the differences between "freeze i1 undef" and the @llvm.experimental.widenable.condition intrinsic?
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00:52:05 <zzo38> The other thing to do in TeXnicard is pixel rounding when typesetting, perhaps similar to how DVItype does, although TeXnicard's internal data structures contain more information than a DVI file does, so that can be used instead of having to guess in some cases.
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11:14:06 <shachaf> @tell ais523 I have a concrete instance where adding the "at least one" constraints makes my solver find UNSAT instantly, but with only "at most one" it takes 18 seconds.
11:39:46 <b_jonas> shachaf: is it a pigeonhole trick where you have n of those disjoint at most one groups on the left side, a bunch of transformations, and then an at least constraint on the right side that actually forces the at least one constraint in a way that your solver can't quickly notice?
11:40:51 <b_jonas> you know, like put 8 black queens on a chessboard such that no pair of queens defend each other
11:42:36 <b_jonas> shachaf: the at most one constraint is that each row has at most one queen. that much is easy from the description, because two queens on a row would attack each other. the least one constraint would be that you put at least one queen in every row, which is not so obvious.
11:43:17 <b_jonas> if you know the at least one constraint, then you can find solutions more quickly, because the solver won't try to explore solutions where all squares of a row are excluded.
11:43:26 <b_jonas> s/solutions/partial solutions/
11:45:04 <shachaf> b_jonas: Oh, the context here is sudoku.
11:45:19 <shachaf> Where I have constraints like "at least one of each digit on this row" and "at most one".
11:48:55 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, that's similar
11:49:21 <b_jonas> it's the same pigeonhole sort of constraint, when you want exactly one of each row, but you can prove that
11:50:02 <b_jonas> though of course these problems are special enough that you probably don't want to solve them by general SAT solvers, but rather by specialized solutions or at least finite domain solvers
11:50:18 <b_jonas> for sudoku you can probably find a lot of different solvers on the net
11:50:27 <shachaf> What's the hardest 9x9 sudoku?
11:50:35 <shachaf> I imagine it's still pretty easy for a CDCL solver.
11:51:03 <b_jonas> I don't know, but I think that's a well known question and there are candidates on the internet, though it might be hard to prove which one is "the hardest"
11:55:25 <shachaf> I suspect they're kind of sensitive to specific choices you make so it's hard to call one the hardest.
11:55:53 <shachaf> But SAT solvers do lots of restarts anyway so they'll probably find a nice variable ordering and solvulate it all easy-peasy-like.
12:11:03 <Arcorann> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/9359579/Worlds-hardest-sudoku-can-you-crack-it.html <-- from searching "hardest sudoku"
12:18:34 <b_jonas> shachaf: yeah, I'm probably just biased against SAT solvers, I don't trust them much
12:19:35 <b_jonas> though perhaps I should be biased against them less than how much I'm biased against machine learning, GPU programming, multi-threading, and just-in-time compilation
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12:20:16 <ais523> that's a weird set of biases
12:20:38 <ais523> I'm biased against machine learning, in favour of GPU programming and multithreading, and mostly neutral on JIT compilation
12:20:50 <ais523> although I think people don't AOT compile nearly as much as they should
12:21:00 <shachaf> When is JIT compilation good?
12:21:10 <arseniiv_> b_jonas: oh, these are almost all what I consider magic at least partially. Though GPU programming is just a thing like microcontrolles which I simply don’t know now and don’t intend to dive into, and not magic
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12:21:22 <ais523> shachaf: I can see an argument for JIT compiling specialised code
12:21:31 <ais523> e.g. you see a function is being called with argument 2 a lot
12:21:31 <b_jonas> ais523: no it's not. all four are technologies that are (or were) overhyped, used for marketing and/or actual solutions for problems where they hurt more than they help. I should add blockchains to that list, but that's too obvious.
12:21:37 <ais523> so you recompile it inlining 2 as a parameter
12:21:40 <arseniiv> and multithreading should be a very different kind of magic if at all
12:21:47 <b_jonas> ais523: SAT solvers don't match that set, which is why I should be less biased against them
12:21:56 <shachaf> I feel like understanding your code is so valuable, though.
12:22:09 <ais523> shachaf: even AOT compilation doesn't help much with that
12:22:29 <shachaf> But I can see some uses for JIT, I suppose. But not just general-purpose code in your regular programming language.
12:22:30 <ais523> especially as most people don't understand what's going on with machine code
12:23:11 <shachaf> Are things like regular expression JITs worthwhile?
12:23:16 <ais523> there's a side advantage of JIT which isn't technically confined to JITs but is normally only seen there: you can distribute platform-independent binaries
12:23:25 <b_jonas> as a result, they're also all technologies that I'd be reluctant to use, and where I sell myself to employers as being an expert of more traditional programming tech as opposed to those overhyped stuff that everyone tries to learn these days, giving a ... uh, insert buzzwords here, the point is that I can write straightforward code to translate domain-specific knowledget such that for many problems I
12:23:31 <b_jonas> get a better solution than those hyped tech that your other candidates would try to sell you
12:23:36 <ais523> regular expression JITting is definitely useful in the case where the regular expression is only known at runtime
12:23:41 <shachaf> For runtime user-entered regular expressions, I mean. If they're known at compiletime then there's no reason to JIT, of course, you just want a specialized AOT compiler.
12:23:42 <ais523> regexes have to be compiled to get good performance
12:24:06 <ais523> as for known-at-compile-time, it probably depends on how large the resulting state machine is
12:24:33 <shachaf> b_jonas: I wish GPU programming was more like CPU programming, where you could target a GPU rather than bizarro languages and compilers provided by vendors.
12:24:42 <ais523> if the source is much smaller than the binary, and the compiler is already on the target machine
12:24:43 <ais523> it may make sense to just ship the code
12:24:49 <b_jonas> but I'm familiar enough with multithreading that I can write code to use it sanely and reliably when it's really needed, and I at least try to recognize when each of these technology could be useful in which case I can advise them to ask someone who is good at those techniques to use them
12:24:52 <ais523> shachaf: oh yes, GPU toolchains are all-around horrible
12:25:05 <ais523> Vulkan is an improvement on what came before but it may not be enough of an improvement
12:25:36 <ais523> b_jonas: one thing I dislike about multithreading is languages that require multithreaded code to do things that shouldn't need it
12:25:57 <shachaf> Isn't Vulkan just a huge complicated mess that is also not relevant to almost any platforms?
12:25:58 <ais523> e.g. because they have no way to block on two unrelated things simultaneously
12:26:16 <arseniiv> <b_honas> SAT solvers don't match that set => hmm, yet?..
12:26:19 <ais523> shachaf: it has fewer levels of abstraction than, say, DirectX or OpenGL
12:26:37 <ais523> which automatically means that working around its messes is more viable than working around its competitors' messes
12:26:41 <arseniiv> I heard they use a SAT solver to (type)check F* code
12:27:30 <ais523> well, Damas-Milner typechecking is basically a sort of SAT solver, but the algorithm is very simple and (with a Hindley-Milner type system) known to terminate
12:28:24 <ais523> btw, my view on multithreading is quite different from most people's; I believe that a program that can't be trivially made multithreaded is inherently inefficient, and thus only suitable for tasks where an inherently inefficient program is acceptable
12:28:52 <ais523> e.g. ls has no reason to be CPU-efficient because it spends almost all its time blocking on I/O anyway
12:28:55 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I don't think they ever will. just look at TAOCP. anything that TAOCP covers won't go into that set. SAT solving is in TAOCP, JIT compilation is minimally mentioned in vol 1 about interpreters, multithreading is specifically excluded from the series' topic in the introduction (though I think a few exercises mention locking), GPU programming is I think excluded though the intro doesn't
12:29:01 <b_jonas> specifically mention that because GPUs didn't exist when vol 1 third edition was printed,
12:29:13 <b_jonas> and ... what were the others? blockchains and machine learning aren't covered either.
12:30:34 <arseniiv> ais523: oh! that reminds me one question. How much GHC’s type system adds to HM to typecheck Haskell with all those extensions (maybe without UndecidableInstances and friends)
12:31:23 <shachaf> ais523: I'm not sure what it means to say that a program is inherently inefficient there.
12:31:23 <b_jonas> though of course we have the ed. Iványi book, which specifically tries to cover topics that TAOCP doesn't cover, because TAOCP is so good that there's no point for them writing a book that says the same thing again
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12:32:12 <b_jonas> so ed. Iványi has chapters for multithreaded programming, SQL databases (that one I'm neutral about... it's more complicated and refined than that but let's not get into that now), etc
12:32:13 <shachaf> Some tasks are hard to parallelize, and certainly hard to parallelize trivially. If there's no better option for doing that task, in what sense is it inefficient?
12:34:53 <ais523> arseniiv: I don't know about most extensions, but Rank2Types is type-checkable in theory but GHC can't do it, RankNTypes has undecidable typechecking
12:35:00 <ais523> this is the reason that Rank2Types is separate
12:35:28 <ais523> shachaf: I mean parallelizing to the extent that the underlying problem can be parallelized
12:35:54 <shachaf> Do you mean inference rather than checking?
12:36:07 <ais523> for example, even if the task is entirely sequential (which is very rare), a program to solve it should at least be trivially modifiable to perform multiple unrelated instances of that task in parallel
12:36:24 <ais523> or, well, checking of a program where the types might not all have been explicitly stated by the programmer, which is the same thing
12:36:30 <arseniiv> shachaf: inference too, yeah, what good is checking without inference
12:36:47 <b_jonas> arseniiv: wow, I didn't know that about rank 2 types
12:36:54 <shachaf> I think the claim that Rank2Types is inferrable in theory isn't very useful.
12:37:20 <ais523> shachaf: it was relevant in my PhD thesis, that's why I know it
12:37:24 <arseniiv> (was that a wrong one-character completion)
12:37:54 <shachaf> I mean, I'm not actually sure what the exact claim is, but my understanding is that you can do "whole program inference": If there are rank-2 types that can be assigned to the whole program, you can find them, but you can't do it locally.
12:38:08 <shachaf> ais523: Oh, then you must know much better than I do.
12:38:46 <shachaf> Also, does the same argument about rank-2 types work for existentials?
12:38:55 <shachaf> I think it must since you can encode existentials with rank-2 types.
12:39:14 <ais523> there's more than one definition of existentials, and I forget which one Haskell uses
12:39:25 <ais523> but if it can be encoded using rank-2 types, it must be inferrable
12:40:19 <shachaf> Say you have an existentially typed thing like xs = [(1, intToString), (False, boolToString)]
12:40:25 <arseniiv> I glance to the GHC’s inference algorithm because I know if I would make a usable language, I’ll need all the types, and as subtyping is almost certainly no-go, something à la GHC or Rust would need to be used
12:40:41 <shachaf> You can assign that the existential types [exists a. (a, a -> String)], or (exists a b. (a, b)], or [exists a. a], etc.
12:40:46 <arseniiv> but I’m afraid to look into the concrete implementation (in GHC)
12:40:55 <shachaf> And there's no way to look at that list without seeing how it's being used and pick one of those.
12:42:34 <ais523> my main interest on existentials was related to type tags rather than to base types or function types, which is a bit different from what GHC is doing
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12:43:18 <ais523> by "type tags" I mean things like the ! from linear logic
12:43:44 <arseniiv> <shachaf> And there's no way to look at that list without seeing how it's being used and pick one of those. => hm would that also be true for any advanced typing constructs? We use types to constrain operations which can be performed, after all, and when very abstract typing constructs emerge, they aren’t usually coupled to the data representation, so we shouldn’t be able to decide(?..)
12:43:46 <shachaf> But you can encode this rank-2. Ignoring the list, I guess: foo f = f (1, intToString)
12:43:47 <ais523> the field I was working in was related to making those things more precise, my thesis was about why the existing attempts at doing it didn't work
12:44:40 <shachaf> You can give foo the type forall r. ((Int, Int -> String) -> r) -> r, or forall r. (forall a. (a, a -> String) -> r) -> r, or forall r. (forall a. a -> r) -> r, etc.
12:44:40 <ais523> right, that foo version of things looks familiar to me
12:45:10 <shachaf> There's no clear most general type is I guess all I was trying to say.
12:46:01 <ais523> I think my experience is that "most general type" equvialents might exist, but aren't actually types, they're some sort of complicated set of constraints
12:46:32 <ais523> there are some examples in my thesis where, due to constraint loops that are solvable, the normal subtyping relationships break down
12:46:32 <arseniiv> surely there could be something to reason about possible types in these cases? Which would complicate algorithms and maybe a type system itself, but maybe wouldn’t look too inhumane?
12:47:01 <arseniiv> <ais523> I think my experience is that "most general type" equvialents might exist, but aren't actually types, they're some sort of complicated set of constraints => something like that!
12:47:46 <arseniiv> it’s nontrivial that typechecking can be that nontrivial
12:49:51 <ais523> <ais523's PhD thesis> Fact 6.2.13. There are terms which type in SCC and Bounded ICA, and which have all types for that term differ only in the bounds, but for which there is a covariant position in those types such that the set of bounds that can appear in that position in some type for that term is not the same as the set of all nonnegative integers.
12:50:18 <ais523> this is basically an argument against the existence of most-general-types
12:50:33 <ais523> because you don't expect to see extra restrictions in covariant positions
12:50:48 <ais523> (the fact in my thesis is a counterexample to a conjecture by someone else)
12:51:18 <ais523> I gave an explicit such term, λ q.(λ g.g(λ x.g(qx)))(λ b.(λ k.((k(λ u.u))(λ l.((kb)(λ m.(l(m( skip ))))))))(λ v.λ w.wv))
12:51:30 <ais523> which is kind-of surprising that it's the simplest known term with that property
12:51:36 <ais523> ("skip" is an arbitrary constant)
12:53:08 <ais523> :t \q -> (\g -> g(\x -> g (q x)))(\b -> (\k ->(\u -> u))(\l -> ((k b)(\m -> (l(m(0))))))))(\v -> \w -> w v))
12:53:39 <ais523> :t \q -> (\g -> g(\x -> g (q x)))(\b -> (\k -> ((k(\u -> u))(\l -> ((k b)(\m -> (l(m(0))))))))(\v -> \w -> w v))
12:53:48 <ais523> @pl \q -> (\g -> g(\x -> g (q x)))(\b -> (\k -> ((k(\u -> u))(\l -> ((k b)(\m -> (l(m(0))))))))(\v -> \w -> w v))
12:53:48 <lambdabot> flip (ap id . flip (.)) (flip (ap ($ id) . flip flip (. ($ 0)) . ((.) .) . flip id) (flip id))
12:54:23 <ais523> GHC doesn't see anything interesting about the term, but i guess that's because it isn't doing anything linear-logic-like
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12:59:44 <ais523> hmm, what's the minimum set of constants required to implement @pl?
13:00:44 <lambdabot> Monad m => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b
13:01:11 <ais523> ah right, ap is the monad version of ($)
13:03:07 <shachaf> Plus things like constructors and eliminators to handle data types.
13:03:55 <ais523> @pl (\x -> x x)(\x -> x x)
13:03:58 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
13:04:22 <ais523> huh, I wonder if its optimizer went into an infinite loop
13:04:45 <ais523> I don't think the double mockingbird even types in Haskell, does it?
13:04:49 <lambdabot> • Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t ~ t -> t1
13:04:49 <lambdabot> • In the first argument of ‘x’, namely ‘x’
13:05:10 <lambdabot> • Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a ~ a -> b
13:05:40 <ais523> perhaps s and k alone are enough in that case
13:05:49 <ais523> you can write y and/or z in terms of them
13:06:32 <shachaf> For @pl's purposes, sure, but if you give it type-checking Haskell it will produce a type-checked pl version.
13:07:01 <shachaf> @pl foo x = if x == 0 then 0 else f (x - 1)
13:07:01 <lambdabot> foo = ap (flip if' 0 . (0 ==)) (f . subtract 1)
13:07:16 <shachaf> @pl foo x = if x == 0 then 0 else foo (x - 1)
13:07:16 <lambdabot> foo = fix (ap (flip if' 0 . (0 ==)) . (. subtract 1))
13:07:40 <ais523> ah right, so now we have a fixed-point combinator
13:08:28 <ais523> and y is enough to implement that sort of fixed-point combinator in a lazy language
13:09:16 <ais523> Haskell's fixed-point combinator kind-of sucks, though
13:09:38 <ais523> \x -> 2 - x has a fixed point, but Haskell's fix couldn't find it
13:10:27 <shachaf> I guess you mean you want a specific fixed point, but it always finds the least fixed point.
13:10:57 <shachaf> Do you know the answer to this question: Why do type theory types require recursion to be strictly positive, rather than just positive?
13:11:02 <ais523> what determines whether a fixed point is higher or lower than bottom?
13:11:20 <ais523> I'm not sure what you mean by positive recursion
13:11:35 <shachaf> I mean types that are recursive and refer to themselves in positive position.
13:11:52 <shachaf> There's a partial order of definedness, with bottom at the bottom (hence the name).
13:12:53 <b_jonas> does haskell even have to have a finite basis of combinators for @pl, given that you can't type some of the untyped combinators?
13:13:07 <b_jonas> maybe you need an infinite set of looping combinators
13:13:26 <ais523> shachaf: oh, I see, so to get a result from fix, you need to write f in such a way that f bottom != bottom
13:13:49 <b_jonas> anyway, I'll afk very soon, be back in 2.5 days probably
13:15:28 <ais523> and that's only possible if f takes multiple arguments, so that the argument that isn't bottom can be used to determine whether or not to look at the first argument
13:15:40 <ais523> or if f ignores its first argument entirely, I guess
13:16:18 <ais523> > fix (\x -> x == true)
13:16:20 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: true :: Bool
13:16:20 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant data constructor ‘True’ (imported from Data.Bool)
13:16:25 <ais523> > fix (\x -> x == True)
13:16:32 <ais523> > fix (\x -> x == False)
13:16:45 <shachaf> Well, it's possible in other cases.
13:16:48 <lambdabot> [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1...
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13:17:18 <ais523> ah right, the bottom is at the tail of the infinite list
13:17:34 <lambdabot> • Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a ~ a -> a
13:17:39 <arseniiv> <ais523> `! brachylog 2-↙..w <HackEso> 1 \ true. => how does it do that?
13:18:19 <ais523> arseniiv: . is a variable in Brachylog, and concatenation means "assert equal" so 2-↙.. means "assert that 2 minus . equals ."
13:18:38 <ais523> when I then use w to output the value of .
13:18:43 <ais523> it uses a constraint solver to figure out what value it has to have
13:19:12 <shachaf> Hmm, I like constraint solvers.
13:19:19 <shachaf> I don't really know how Prolog works.
13:19:35 <ais523> the ↙ is just used to give - an argument because Brachylog operators are unary by default unless you explicitly make them binary
13:19:43 <shachaf> Is it just defined to use backtracking?
13:19:53 <arseniiv> ais523: shachaf: ah, so that’s why it called -log!
13:20:04 <ais523> shachaf: in original/standard Prolog, yes, but modern Prolog has deviated from that somewhat
13:20:12 <ais523> there are now two levels of solving ability
13:20:22 <ais523> the outer one uses backtracking, the inner one uses a constraint solver
13:20:44 <ais523> although, even in traditional Prolog, there was some limited constraint-solving ability that didn't involve backtracking
13:20:55 <ais523> I'm not sure if we have a Prolog impl in HackEso to demosntrate, though
13:21:04 <shachaf> Prolog is also pretty related to index notation, I think.
13:21:13 <shachaf> Man, index notation is so good.
13:21:35 <arseniiv> I seem to remember something like this discussed here
13:21:36 <ais523> but, e.g., concat([1,2,3],B,A), B=[4,5,6] will give you the output A=[1,2,3,4,5,6] with no backtracking involved
13:21:47 <ais523> because it's one of the case that traditional prolog's constraint-solver handles
13:22:30 <shachaf> Oh, because the naive thing would be to assign values to B and A at the first statement, and then backtrack when you see that your guess for B was wrong?
13:22:39 <arseniiv> can one mix Prolog and session types?
13:22:41 <ais523> err, it's called "append", not "concat"
13:23:13 <ais523> if you write append(B,[1,2,3],A),B=[4,5,6]. then the constraint solver can't handle it
13:23:31 <ais523> so the backtracker is engaged, it finds the solution A=[4,5,6,1,2,3], then goes into an infinite loop looking for a second solution
13:23:47 <ais523> trying longer and longer guesses for B
13:24:14 <ais523> it has a special case for the end of the list but not for the start of a list
13:24:31 <shachaf> Oh, it's just a super-duper-special-case-a-majig.
13:24:41 <ais523> ?- append([1,2,3],B,A).
13:24:52 <ais523> there, we can see the special case being written in the output
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13:24:56 <shachaf> Oh, hmm, I see now, maybe that makes sense.
13:25:00 <shachaf> Because it's a linked list structure.
13:25:12 <shachaf> This is the origin of difference lists, I remember now.
13:25:30 <ais523> right, the special case is actually for an unknown argument to a functor
13:25:30 <HackEso> The cut-elimination theorem states that any Prolog program written using the cut operator ! can be rewritten without using that operator.
13:25:52 <ais523> which means that for a list, the constraint solver handles unknown elements and unknown tails, but no other cases
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13:27:26 <ais523> I think the explicit evaluation order is one of the least elegant things about Prolog
13:27:33 <arseniiv> eh, it should have been using some length information in the `append` definition. But then it would need to compute lengths of known arguments and it may end up slow without caching which list had been shown to have which length
13:28:03 <ais523> arseniiv: the normal implementation "append" (and the implementation in the standard library) works by looping over all possible lengths
13:29:00 <ais523> ?- length(B, 3), append(B, [1,2,3], A), B=[4,5,6].
13:29:03 <ais523> A = [4, 5, 6, 1, 2, 3].
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13:29:20 <ais523> when we set the length of B explicitly, there's no backtracking involved because "append" has only one case to check
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13:29:54 <ais523> the reason for the infinite loop without the "length" is just that nothing is known about B until after "append" runs, and Prolog has a set evaluation order so it can't take into account any knowledge about what B is about to become
13:30:40 <shachaf> What would Prolog be like if it was more like a SAT solver?
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13:31:25 <ais523> shachaf: I have plans for something like this already
13:31:46 <ais523> the main idea is to start off by evaluating anything that can be evaluated efficiently, then anything that can be evaluated in known finite time
13:31:57 <ais523> and only resort to an infinite brute-force as the last resort
13:32:15 <ais523> (even then, breadth-first is better than depth-first so that you search every point in the infinite tree)
13:33:07 <ais523> iterative deepening and breadth-first are equivalent
13:33:26 <ais523> the only difference is that iterative deepening re-checks some cases it's already checked, in order to save the memory needed to remember that it's already checked them
13:33:56 <shachaf> Well, hmm, not necessarily?
13:34:27 <shachaf> If you're doing something like alpha-beta pruning, can iterative deepening be better than breadth-first search?
13:34:54 <ais523> hmm, interesting; you'd need to use the alpha and beta values from lower levels to prune the higher levels in order to get any gain
13:35:01 <shachaf> That reminds me, is there a really nice way that I should understand PVS/Scout?
13:35:23 <shachaf> Well, you might get a better ordering on the earlier levels that you can use for the later levels.
13:35:36 <shachaf> Since alpha-beta is sensitive to the order of the nodes.
13:36:11 <shachaf> I'm actually not really sure what breadth-first alpha-beta would mean.
13:36:21 <ais523> shachaf: the best way to understand PVS is that it's like alpha-beta search, but instead of setting alpha and beta to worst case values, you set them to best case values so that the search can go faster
13:36:49 <ais523> you then have to redo the search if your values turned out to be too optimisitic, but luckily it's always possible to discover this during your iteration
13:37:15 <shachaf> Hmm, that's interesting, do you have a concrete case in mind?
13:37:27 <shachaf> Otherwise I'll try to think of one, maybe after sleeping.
13:37:35 <ais523> it's used in chess programs a lot
13:37:53 <shachaf> No, I mean a concrete tree that makes this best-case thing really clear.
13:38:10 <shachaf> I should probably work it out myself given your hint.
13:38:24 <ais523> concrete search trees are a pain to come up with
13:38:34 <shachaf> Yes, I just mean something small. Let me see.
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13:39:09 <shachaf> For regular alpha-beta, the insight is that if you have something like min(5, max(8, ...), ...), you don't need to compute the rest of the arguments to max.
13:39:45 <shachaf> Do I need three levels of tree for PVS?
13:40:17 <ais523> no, in PVS you see min(5, …) and just assume that nothing in the … will be lower than a 5
13:40:47 <ais523> you need to verify that, of course, but verifying it is faster than doing a full alpha-beta search because you don't track the values of alpha and beta
13:41:02 <ais523> if the verification fails, then you need to do a proper search because you have no idea what went wrong
13:41:48 <ais523> here's a different intution: a true depth-first search is "give me the exact evaluation of this position"
13:42:05 <ais523> an alpha-beta search is "give me the exact evaluation of this position if it's in the range 5 to 8, otherwise just say 'too low' or 'too high'"
13:42:27 <ais523> and a PVS search is "let me know if this position evaluates to ≥ 5 or < 5"
13:43:03 <shachaf> Which position? E.g. the second argument to min?
13:43:51 <ais523> in a PVS you do a proper alpha-beta search from the suspected-best candidate move in each position, then just try to prove that none of the others are better than it
13:44:33 <ais523> so, e.g. from the starting position in chess, if you think e4 is the best move, you get an evaluation for e4 using alpha-beta, then evaluate the position after d4 using a binary evaluation ("worse than e4" / "better than e4")
13:44:48 <ais523> if it's worse, you're good; if it's better, you need to do a full search again in order to find out the exact evaluation
13:44:49 <shachaf> Is the assumption here that alpha-beta will *probably* say ">= 5"?
13:45:15 <shachaf> Hmm, this is sounding pretty helpful.
13:45:32 <ais523> so PVS is really dependent on getting the moves in the right order; getting them in the wrong order doesn't affect correctness but the performance tanks
13:45:50 <shachaf> What's the reason the binary evaluation can be faster than full evaluation?
13:47:19 <ais523> with alpha/beta there's an overlap in the cutoff ranges for low cutoffs and high cutoffs, a value between alpha and beta can't be cut off whether it's high or low
13:47:20 <shachaf> And what's the reason it can be expressed using a regular alpha-beta search, just with different values for alpha and beta?
13:47:46 <shachaf> I suspect I can work out the answers to both of those questions with what you've given me.
13:47:48 <ais523> to get a PVS trial search out of an alpha-beta search algorithm you set alpha=beta
13:47:57 <ais523> so there's less (i.e. no) overlap in the cutoff ranges
13:48:06 <ais523> that makes cutoffs more frequent so the search goes faster
13:48:48 <ais523> (err, alpha and beta might have to differ by 1 depending on what your convention for range endpoints is, the idea is that every value is either a low cutoff when looking for low cutoffs, or else a high cutoff when looking for high cutoffs)
13:49:06 <ais523> (whereas alpha-beta has "in between" values)
13:50:59 <shachaf> This is seeming really nice but unfortunately I really need to go to sleep.
13:51:33 <shachaf> I'll think about this again after I wake up.
13:54:54 <arseniiv> ais523: please ping me any time if you would make something with these “sensible ordered Prolog” ideas you wrote, that looks very interesting to test
14:25:47 <esowiki> [[Forbin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73089&oldid=73070 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+466) /* Range loops */
14:27:01 <esowiki> [[Forbin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73090&oldid=73089 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) /* Returns */
14:48:34 <esowiki> [[Forbin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73091&oldid=73090 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2242) /* The NOT operator */
14:51:03 <esowiki> [[Forbin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73092&oldid=73091 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+283) /* I/O */
14:54:03 <esowiki> [[Forbin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73093&oldid=73092 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+250)
15:13:09 <esowiki> [[Livefish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73094&oldid=73079 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* C */
15:14:06 <esowiki> [[Livefish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73095&oldid=73094 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+46) /* Computational Properties */
15:14:41 <esowiki> [[Deadfish~]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73096&oldid=73080 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-11) eso styles ns visible
15:15:13 <esowiki> [[Livefish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73097&oldid=73095 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-21) eso styles ns visible
15:17:27 <esowiki> [[COD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73098&oldid=72697 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) /* Raise an error (takes 3 inputs first) */ cat
15:18:34 <esowiki> [[Forbin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73099&oldid=73093 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+92) /* Computational class */
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16:06:14 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73100&oldid=73086 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+83) /* Languages */
16:06:44 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73101&oldid=72839 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* F */ + [[Forbin]]
16:07:17 <esowiki> [[Forbin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73102&oldid=73099 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12)
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16:11:23 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is Mayfly.
16:11:26 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is Mayfly.
16:16:52 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73103&oldid=72763 * Emerald * (+12) Rename
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18:41:58 <esowiki> [[3switchBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73104&oldid=53806 * Voltage2007 * (+878)
18:43:16 <esowiki> [[Deadfish "self-interpreter"]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73105&oldid=63098 * Voltage2007 * (+141)
18:43:54 <myname> last minute change there
18:48:14 <int-e> myname: I thought of that one 3 weeks ago :P
18:48:33 <int-e> but it only makes sense when it's short-lived.
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19:19:38 <ais523> int-e: oh, I was trying to figure out what the pun was
19:19:51 <ais523> you're probably a day early, though, May has 31 days
19:22:18 <ais523> and mayflies only last a few days I think
20:07:41 <spruit11> Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like bananas.
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21:39:33 <arseniiv> finding cycles in a bitmap and printing it as ASCII art: https://hatebin.com/ksmezwqait
21:40:07 <arseniiv> now I need to make so that cycles would know which one is inside which
21:49:26 <esowiki> [[L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73106&oldid=72160 * Voltage2007 * (-313) js was already implemented so I replaced it with befunge
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00:44:17 <esowiki> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73107&oldid=73072 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) Fix userlink
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00:48:12 <esowiki> [[Deadfish "self-interpreter"]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73108&oldid=73105 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-32) /* "Truth-machine" */
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01:13:11 <imode> gamedev in thue. think about it.
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04:11:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73109&oldid=72936 * Yoel * (+59) /* Converting to Roman numerals */
04:12:38 <imode> yoel seems to have a lot of interesting thue examples.
04:14:12 <esowiki> [[Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73110&oldid=72915 * Yoel * (+127) /* External resources */
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09:52:27 <int-e> . o O ( Half-width spaces are a core ingredient of semi-Thue systems. )
09:59:23 <int-e> I like Friday's xkcd more than I really should... mainly because the title text mentions the two pairs I had most trouble memorizing, namely 6x7 and 7x8.
10:18:07 <int-e> . o O ( https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/w.jpg ... yeah seems to match up )
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11:37:17 <fizzie> I was expecting there to be at least one non-symmetric pair, just as a joke. Although I did my check just by reading the anti-diagonals.
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13:47:02 <int-e> . o O ( This May end soon. )
13:48:07 <int-e> fizzie: I started out like that and then I decided that there must be a less efficient way
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15:26:12 <esowiki> [[Fscratch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73111&oldid=73073 * DmilkaSTD * (-1)
15:26:57 <esowiki> [[Fscratch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73112&oldid=73111 * DmilkaSTD * (+3)
15:40:11 <esowiki> [[Fscratch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73113&oldid=73112 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) /* Notes */
15:40:36 <esowiki> [[Fscratch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73114&oldid=73113 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* External resources */
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18:15:24 <esowiki> [[Memescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73115&oldid=53913 * DmilkaSTD * (+46)
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18:25:58 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73116&oldid=72228 * DmilkaSTD * (+13)
18:32:47 <esowiki> [[Upsilon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73117&oldid=69931 * DmilkaSTD * (+150)
18:36:29 <esowiki> [[Upsilon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73118&oldid=73117 * DmilkaSTD * (+18)
18:37:41 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73119&oldid=73116 * DmilkaSTD * (+42)
18:39:06 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73120&oldid=73119 * DmilkaSTD * (+5)
19:01:24 <esowiki> [[PlusOrMinus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73121&oldid=72679 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) /* Resources */ fsa
19:04:28 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73122&oldid=72314 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25)
19:05:00 <esowiki> [[Alphaprint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73123&oldid=72988 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) /* Resources */
19:11:58 <esowiki> [[WII2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73124&oldid=70025 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+194) cats
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19:43:06 <zzo38> How to determine the METAFONT mode to use based on the parameters in the PostScript page device dictionary?
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22:35:39 <esowiki> [[Increment]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73125&oldid=72703 * DmilkaSTD * (+11) You forgot to change the comment "-Works in..."
22:38:23 <esowiki> [[Increment]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73126&oldid=73125 * DmilkaSTD * (-88) What is the point of that comment?
22:41:15 <esowiki> [[Increment]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73127&oldid=73126 * DmilkaSTD * (+28) Users wont know which programming language is the shown in implementation
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23:12:35 <esowiki> [[Noobinary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73128&oldid=54538 * DmilkaSTD * (-15) There is no point for it
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23:35:53 <esowiki> [[Uyjhmn n]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73129&oldid=65788 * DmilkaSTD * (-43) Pretified
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23:45:07 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck self-interpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73130&oldid=69763 * DmilkaSTD * (-435) Replaced content with "::This page is not used right now"