00:14:13 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70556&oldid=70504 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* C */
00:17:37 <esowiki> [[Cheers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70557&oldid=50618 * LegionMammal978 * (+324) added categories
00:23:03 <esowiki> [[Flurry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70558&oldid=66937 * Challenger5 * (+1058)
00:25:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:Flurry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70559&oldid=70552 * Challenger5 * (+264)
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01:03:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Z]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70560&oldid=70550 * Challenger5 * (+854)
01:04:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Z]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70561&oldid=70560 * Challenger5 * (+180)
01:06:06 <esowiki> [[Z]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70562&oldid=62308 * Challenger5 * (+89)
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02:14:44 <esowiki> [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70563&oldid=69953 * IFcoltransG * (+4) /* Commands */ Updated whether the development is active or not
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02:35:42 <esowiki> [[Charm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70564&oldid=54864 * IFcoltransG * (+18) Changed from 'is actively maintained' to 'was actively maintained'
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03:16:46 <int-e> tromp: I updated BB.txt and added my code, so that should answer all your questions
05:02:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:Z]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70565&oldid=70561 * Challenger5 * (-12) move my message to respect signature
05:03:11 <esowiki> [[Z]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70566&oldid=70562 * Challenger5 * (-28) remove unused feature
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09:59:24 <esowiki> [[Vitsy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70567&oldid=50645 * VTCAKAVSMoACE * (-1)
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11:03:33 <b_jonas> SIGBOVIK conference procedings are released
11:03:46 <rain1> i was checking out poc or gtfo recently
11:03:49 <rain1> just remembered it recently
11:14:32 <tromp> int-e: thanks for those nice additions. I see how (\1 (\\3 2)) is in your set W. Btw, do you mind me renaming B to V and W' to B in BB.txt ?
11:21:02 <int-e> tromp: fine with me
11:21:32 <int-e> (I used V for something else initially but then got rid of that)
11:22:04 <tromp> B for bodies and V for variables is more mnemonic. plus W and W' are harder to tell apart
11:23:14 <int-e> This generalizes to things like W T W -> H[W T W], but I haven't checked whether that applies to any of the remaining size 32 cases.
11:25:00 <int-e> (There's also W W W -> H[W W W], and W W T -> H[W W T] all with slightly different definitions for W and B)
11:25:13 <int-e> (So the families explode a bit.)
11:26:16 <tromp> yeah i noticed one of those W W W -> H[W W W] cases leading my program to hang at 34
11:26:44 <int-e> (well, I didn't investigate which case it was)
11:27:05 <tromp> it was (\1 1 1) (\\1 2 2)
11:27:07 <int-e> (but it does run out of memory at 34)
11:27:43 <int-e> where memory is what I have here, which is 32G.
11:28:06 <tromp> my desktop has the same:)
11:28:29 <int-e> (\1 1 1) (\\1 (\3) 1) looks like it is a WTW case.
11:29:29 <int-e> Nah, that was too quick. It's (unless I'm confusing myself) different.
11:30:18 <int-e> Oh. I *am* confusing myself.
11:30:55 <int-e> (Namely, 1 refers to the second argument, not the first.)
11:32:29 <int-e> So the conclusion is that generalizing this criterion would get rid of at least one remaining case for BB(32).
11:33:36 <rain1> are there any conditions on H?
11:34:38 <int-e> rain1: H ::= □ | \v. H | H T -- it's a context with the hole in head position
11:39:10 <int-e> tromp: Anyway, the reason I blocked your question yesterday was because I had to figure out how to present this nicely... the initial thought process was very convoluted and not as rigorous as I liked. Sleeping on it helped... I could put things together in my head in the morning, then get up and write them down :)
11:41:01 <int-e> (And as things stood yesterday, it might have turned out that the criterion was flawed. Embarrassing, but less embarrassing than being told by somebodye else :P -- I have some pride.)
11:45:42 <int-e> I wonder whether there's any serious literature on this question... identifying lambda terms with normal form.
11:46:04 <int-e> or rather, without.
11:46:16 <rain1> i would be interested in that oto
11:46:58 <rain1> I think they are called head recurrent terms
11:47:18 <int-e> that's a small subclass
11:52:20 <tromp> studying busy beavers is an exercise in recognizing ever wider classes of divergent behaviour
11:54:48 <int-e> and also, at some point, of compressing computations which we already know will be needed to find BB(38).
11:55:16 <int-e> (because 2^65536 is uncomfortably big)
11:55:22 <tromp> at least lambda calculus lends itself better to that than turing machines:)
11:56:02 <int-e> Yeah the granularity is finer, so the difficulty rises a bit more gracefully.
11:56:06 <rain1> it's really interesting to study the lambda calculus BB
11:56:20 <tromp> TM busy beaver is stuck at 5 states, which is almost 50 bits
11:56:26 <rain1> i think it would also be interesting to check out the shortest terms that produce 2^n reductions and similar other functions
11:57:23 <int-e> maybe if you'd parameterize TMs by number of non-terminating transitions instead, you could do something more interesting
11:57:59 <int-e> But also, TMs are kind of icky to analyse; I wouldn't know where to begin :)
11:59:42 <int-e> (Okay, that's a lie. There's a fairly obvious notion of stationary loops that don't change the tape, and shifting loops that write the same string to the tape over and over again. And after that is where I think it becomes really ugly.)
12:00:41 <tromp> both cases of tape-independent behaviour
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12:07:57 <int-e> It's comparable to where we're at with the BLCBBs; the next step is bound to involve some sort of induction. Though, perhaps, there are some devilishly clever context-free-ish grammars (along the lines of W) that describe sets of terms that have no normal forms and are closed under left-most outer-most reduction.
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12:34:13 <tromp> int-e: could you represent Bot by Var maxInt instead ?
12:34:50 <tromp> (assuming incv would preserve it)
12:37:03 <int-e> Probably? Var -1 is another idea. But I started from scratch and this felt cleaner.
12:37:36 <tromp> it behaves similarly to my function eqfree in BB.lhs
12:39:17 <tromp> so you could avoid Bot by writing a custom S.member
12:39:56 <tromp> seems cleaner still
12:41:14 <int-e> (If I had worked on top of AIT.lhs I would probably have resorted to such trickery.)
12:42:15 <tromp> Equality modulo free vars is hardly trickery
12:42:33 <int-e> I meant the Var -1 idea.
12:43:37 <tromp> but expressing Equality modulo free vars is cleaner than adding a Bot constructor to your terms
12:44:11 <tromp> seems cleaner imo :-)
12:46:04 <int-e> Yeah but it doesn't interact nicely with Ord.
12:46:21 <int-e> (not that it really matters)
12:47:25 <tromp> it matters for efficiency of set membership I guess
12:47:54 <int-e> sure but that's hardly the bottleneck at the set sizes I allow
12:48:15 <int-e> I used Data.Set out of habit, really.
12:49:11 <tromp> btw, you don't need to add all r to the set, just the ones where subst 0 a b is larger in size than r
12:49:37 <tromp> i.e. the local size minima
12:50:21 <int-e> I probably don't care :)
12:50:49 <tromp> not at these sizes no:)
12:50:52 <int-e> But yeah, good point.
12:51:17 <int-e> Actually I'm worried that it would explode. :)
12:51:22 <tromp> btw, my understanding of Haskell is lacking
12:51:48 <tromp> i thought i could change your b <- return (simp b) to let b = simp b
12:52:27 <tromp> so i could just let sb = simp b
12:52:33 <tromp> and avoid the reuse of b
12:52:49 <int-e> but the shadowing of the old version is a feature here
12:53:25 <int-e> It means I will not accidently use it.
12:54:00 <tromp> a sanitation feature:)
12:54:19 <int-e> I usually use primes... and then I produce bugs by missing a prime somewhere :-/
12:54:54 <int-e> so I've become a believer in deliberate shadowing of identifiers.
12:55:22 <tromp> you're a prime example of a shadowy character:-)
12:55:30 <int-e> in lieu of assignments from imperative programming languages
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12:57:46 <tromp> yes, i guess imperative programs can be directly transcribed with x = E replaced by x <- Just E
12:57:46 <int-e> > let f n | n <- n+1, n <- n*2 = n in f 4
13:00:10 <tromp> > let f n = do n <- Just n+1; n <- Just n*2 in f 4
13:00:14 <lambdabot> The last statement in a 'do' block must be an expression
13:01:12 <tromp> > let f n = do n <- Just n+1; n <- Just n*2; return n in f 4
13:01:16 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Num (Maybe Integer))
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13:02:12 <tromp> > let f n = do n <- Just (n+1); n <- Just n*2; return n in f 4
13:02:16 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Num (Maybe Integer))
13:02:22 <tromp> > let f n = do n <- Just (n+1); n <- Just (n*2); return n in f 4
13:02:51 <tromp> Just ice at last:-)
13:03:09 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70568&oldid=70502 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+388) REgeex
13:28:17 <tromp> why does your simpA have an argument i that's always 0 ?
13:29:50 <int-e> because I had some idea that used it with 1 but didn't pan out
13:31:13 <int-e> related to the "level 2" beta reduction (\x\y. u) v w -> (\x. u[y := w]) v
13:31:58 <int-e> And by "didn't pan out" I mean it didn't help at the sizes I currently care about.
13:33:28 <b_jonas> quesiton about the Wiki. Ellipsis and A are categorized as Languages, whereas Unary and Lenguage are categorized as joke languages. they're essentially the same language. what makes one of them a joke language and the other a language? are they just on the border where they can just be categorized either?
13:35:13 <int-e> <joke> you gotta keep those categories balanced </joke>
13:36:54 <esowiki> [[SimPL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70569 * B jonas * (+601) Created page with "'''SimPL''' is an esoteric programming language with very simple syntax. SimPL programs are very large because their contents are encoded in unary, there is only one program..."
13:38:17 <esowiki> [[SimPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70570&oldid=70569 * B jonas * (+93)
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15:00:33 <int-e> tromp: Thanks btw, you definitely have a point about using Bot to mark free variables. I don't think it actually goes wrong just yet, but it easily could...
15:01:27 <tromp> i'm rewriting my BB.lhs based on your improvements
15:02:08 <tromp> using the S.Set and storing the minimal size r
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15:02:58 <tromp> and using data BBClass = NormalForm DB | Diverging | Unknown for reduction results
15:03:01 <int-e> ...and even if it couldn't go wrong, the reasons why it doesn't happen are too subtle :)
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18:32:05 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70571 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1484) Created page with "{{Template:Distinguish/Confusion|Minimal}} '''Minimal operation language''' is a test esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]], who will try to implement it and possibly fai..."
18:32:36 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70572&oldid=70568 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+78)
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18:50:03 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70573&oldid=70571 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) /* Syntax */
19:13:16 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70574&oldid=70573 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Syntax */
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21:41:44 <b_jonas> SIGBOVIK talks are now being broadcast.
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22:16:45 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Binyamin * New user account
22:24:22 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70575&oldid=70539 * Binyamin * (+197)
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22:41:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Qwote]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70576&oldid=70486 * Binyamin * (+1202)
22:41:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Qwote]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70577&oldid=70576 * Binyamin * (-486)
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23:44:36 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70578&oldid=70046 * Binyamin * (+76) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */
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02:35:39 <esowiki> [[FiM++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70579&oldid=69638 * Salpynx * (+16) /* Collatz sequence */ 5yr old pointed out a logic bug in my code. Fixed.
02:38:45 <zzo38> I am reading the SIGBOVIK proceedings. There is something about chess, giving an example with Fischer Random where the king is moving to the cell where the rook currently occupies, but nevertheless you are required to move the king first and then move the rook. One way I think might be to pick up the king with some fingers and use other fingers on the same hand to move the rook.
02:40:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, there are two articles by tom7 this year
02:45:14 <b_jonas> or who the heck knows really
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03:45:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hommecitrons * New user account
03:47:24 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70580&oldid=70575 * Hommecitrons * (+129) /* Introductions */
03:51:54 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70581&oldid=69580 * Hommecitrons * (+50)
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07:16:14 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70582 * RocketRace * (+3268) Begin writing the article. Will keep stub status until I am finished.
07:17:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Babalang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70583 * RocketRace * (+176) Created page with "Hello. This article is incomplete. I will continue writing to it once I have free time. ~~~~"
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08:41:47 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Javaveryhot * New user account
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09:49:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70584&oldid=70580 * Javaveryhot * (+121)
09:49:36 <esowiki> [[Kentarg]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70585 * Javaveryhot * (+1412) Created page with "Kentarg is a programming language created by ~~~. The project was started at 6 February 2020 and released (with version 0.0.0) at 14 February 2020. Kentarg program files use..."
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10:21:06 <esowiki> [[Kentarg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70586&oldid=70585 * Javaveryhot * (+1805)
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10:31:48 <esowiki> [[Int**]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70587&oldid=70122 * Hakerh400 * (+22)
10:38:25 <esowiki> [[Self-modifying Turing machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70588&oldid=70425 * Hakerh400 * (+642) Explain an edge case in details
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11:10:44 <esowiki> [[Halt halt halt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70589 * Hakerh400 * (+2106) +[[Halt halt halt]]
11:10:49 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70590&oldid=70556 * Hakerh400 * (+21) +[[Halt halt halt]]
11:10:52 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70591&oldid=70505 * Hakerh400 * (+21) +[[Halt halt halt]]
11:13:34 <esowiki> [[Halt halt halt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70592&oldid=70589 * Hakerh400 * (-38)
11:17:55 <esowiki> [[Halt halt halt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70593&oldid=70592 * Hakerh400 * (+44)
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13:30:08 <int-e> Oh, Halt halt halt... Let's wait for an example program that exercises all 3 values (assuming ZFC is consistent).
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14:23:50 <esowiki> [[Duck Duck Goose]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70594&oldid=42970 * LegionMammal978 * (-963) fixed examples, added categories
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15:27:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Flurry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70595&oldid=70559 * Yul3n * (+209)
15:37:14 <esowiki> [[Cthulhu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70596&oldid=66590 * Yul3n * (+128)
16:49:29 <zzo38> O, in Magic: the Gathering now they made up cards that you can cast from your sideboard if certain conditions are met.
17:07:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh jesus they're making permanents made of multiple cards (like B.F.M.s or SNOT or meld or host) in black-bordered magic. in common. this will be a rules nightmare.
17:09:13 <b_jonas> also wtf is a Hero. it used to be a defunct creature type, but apparently there's now a card type, outside of standard-legal expansions, named the same.
17:09:48 <b_jonas> I really can't keep up with all this nonsense that wizards creates these days
17:10:17 <zzo38> I don't know all of the rules yet, but I am guessing it is similar to meld for the purpose of zone changes, although I don't know what happens to the spell once a permanent is mutated, since the permanent is an object that already existed, presumably it remains the same one, just with different characteristics.
17:15:24 <b_jonas> why the heck would they name something that goes onto the type line the same as a defunct creature type?
17:15:55 <b_jonas> unless it's for the same purpose, like Legendary named of Legend I guess
17:15:55 <zzo38> I don't know. I don't know what it means either, if anything.
17:17:30 <zzo38> I don't like all of the rules of Magic: the Gathering myself, such as rule 202.3b looks messy to me, and the rules prohibiting creatures from being attached to anything is also messy to me.
17:18:18 <zzo38> (Also, instead of [ability] counters, I would have made the rules [ability] tokens: An [ability] token is a Aura enchantment token with "enchant permanent" and "enchanted permanent has [ability]".)
17:18:27 <b_jonas> that's even worse than making an "Avatar" creature type
17:18:38 <b_jonas> because "Avatar" at least wasn't in the type line
17:19:02 <zzo38> What do you think about [ability] counters?
17:20:41 <b_jonas> I'm less afraid of those. they won't cause rules problems. they may cause playability problems, but wizards is aggressively checking for those, at least in standard, so it probably won't happen.
17:21:07 <b_jonas> it's certainly better than the workarounds like static abilities that apply "as long as" a permanent has a certain type of counter
17:21:54 <zzo38> Yes, it won't have rules problems, and avoids workarounds like that too.
17:22:13 <zzo38> Although as I said I would have done it as tokens instead
17:22:33 <b_jonas> or the ones that just modify characteristic forever without any marker like a counter, like Balduvian Frostwaker
17:22:45 <b_jonas> compared to those, an ability counter is a cleaner solution
17:23:07 <b_jonas> obviously they have to be careful balancing them so that they don't cause playability problems in formats with larger cardpool
17:23:15 <zzo38> Although there are disadvantages to using tokens too, such as status.
17:23:19 <b_jonas> `card-by-name Aquitect's Will
17:23:20 <HackEso> Aquitect's Will \ U \ Tribal Sorcery -- Merfolk \ Put a flood counter on target land. That land is an Island in addition to its other types for as long as it has a flood counter on it. If you control a Merfolk, draw a card. \ LRW-C, DDT-C
17:23:28 <b_jonas> ^ this is an example for the "as long as it has a flood counter" thing
17:25:36 <b_jonas> there's also the solution where they print tokens and do abilities like "create an aura enchantment token with shroud and enchant creature and 'enchanted creature has flying' attached to target creature", but it gets long and ugly to print such abilities, so it's not useful when they want to do in large numbers
17:28:00 <b_jonas> anyway, +X/+X counter tech has existed forever in Magic, so it's technology that's proven to work if they don't overuse it
17:29:27 <b_jonas> I just wonder if there's any clash with existing names of counters that happen to be ability words
17:29:48 <zzo38> Yes, I wondered about that too.
17:32:30 <b_jonas> the rules manager probably knew for a decade that ability counters may come one day, but would he have the authority to veto the *name* of a keyword ability on that ground?
17:44:46 <zzo38> Another idea I thought of is for ability counters to use the words "[ability] ability counter".
17:49:34 <zzo38> Also, perhaps they will have to add a new sub-layer for ability counters.
18:06:54 <HackEso> Soul Echo \ XWW \ Enchantment \ Soul Echo enters the battlefield with X echo counters on it. \ You don't lose the game for having 0 or less life. \ At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Soul Echo if there are no echo counters on it. Otherwise, target opponent may choose that for each 1 damage that would be dealt to you until your next upkeep, you remove an echo counter from Soul Echo instead. \ MI-R
18:08:22 <b_jonas> zzo38: ^ echo counter. echo used to be a keyword ability without a parameter.
18:10:54 <b_jonas> imagine suddenly having to pay WW for each counter on Soul Echo each turn
18:11:17 <zzo38> Echo costs only apply once.
18:11:31 <zzo38> O, OK, so there is one (although now that keyword ability has a parameter, so it is perhaps not as bad as the other one).
18:12:07 <b_jonas> oh true, you'd only pay it one turn
18:12:30 <b_jonas> like I said, echo didn't use to have a parameter. even the Comp rules mentions that.
18:12:35 <b_jonas> see the printed text of Acridian
18:13:09 <zzo38> Yes, I do know that.
18:15:02 <b_jonas> well, at least in this case, at worst they have to oracle patch it to use echo - {0} counters, or better, some other kind of named counters
18:16:55 <zzo38> Still, I said it is messy due to things like this, and would prefer explicitly calling them "ability counters" in the text. The effect is the same, although it is more clearly what it means and provides better forward and backward compatibility.
18:19:14 <b_jonas> oh yeah, there are fuse counters, but they'd be really hard, probably impossible, to get them to a situation where it's ambiguous
18:19:21 <HackEso> Goblin Bomb \ 1R \ Enchantment \ At the beginning of your upkeep, you may flip a coin. If you win the flip, put a fuse counter on Goblin Bomb. If you lose the flip, remove a fuse counter from Goblin Bomb. \ Remove five fuse counters from Goblin Bomb, Sacrifice Goblin Bomb: Goblin Bomb deals 20 damage to target player or planeswalker. \ WL-R \ \ Goblin Bombardment \ 1R \ Enchantment \ Sacrifice a creature: Goblin Bombardment deals 1 damage to
18:19:34 <b_jonas> mentioned on multiple old cards
18:19:46 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70597&oldid=70574 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1124)
18:20:03 <zzo38> The other possibility, other than explicitly saying they are ability counters in the effect that adds them, is to extend rule 111.10 similar to how I mentioned before.
18:20:34 <zzo38> (Although this results in a different effect than the other one.)
18:21:04 <b_jonas> they could also just explicitly list which named counters are ability counters
18:23:01 <zzo38> Yes, although I don't like that much either, since it interferes with unofficial cards.
18:34:10 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70598&oldid=70597 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+162) /* Operators */
18:34:53 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70599&oldid=70598 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* Syntax */
18:35:28 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70600&oldid=70599 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) /* Syntax */
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19:34:36 <esowiki> [[KeyVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70601&oldid=68927 * Void * (+33) /* General properties */
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20:23:43 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Usernametaken * New user account
20:30:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70602&oldid=70584 * Usernametaken * (+430) /* Introductions */
20:31:38 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70603&oldid=65759 * Usernametaken * (+1) /* Hello, world! (without string reversion) */
20:33:52 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70604&oldid=70603 * Usernametaken * (+0) /* Simple game ("Less or More") */
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22:48:59 <tromp> int-e: I ended up just using id (\ 1) instead of bottom inside simpE, which has the exact same behaviour
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23:54:49 <zzo38> I thought some idea of ais523's card game. Possibly the overspill for Reconnaissance resource can be moving cards from the bottom of your spent pile to the bottom of your regular pile.
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01:03:43 <b_jonas> everyone knows that naming something "final version" is almost always a bad idea, because there will be a later vesrion. and "modern" or "contemporary" is also almost always a bad idea, because your book title WILL read stupid a few decades from now. but I'm starting to suspect that naming technological things "mini" or "micro" or "nano" or "tiny" or "compact" is also a bad idea, because something
01:03:49 <b_jonas> smaller will come along later and your name will sound silly. just look at "compact flash cards" and "compact disks"
01:08:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: right, I should have looked on the scryfall wiki first: https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Hero_(card_type)
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01:16:13 <zzo38> O, so that is what it is. (It still isn't quite so clear how it is working. Vanguards aren't permanents, but heroes presumably would have to be, in order for their functions to work.)
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05:16:44 <int-e> somebody should try that in a stadion... get a column to yawn simultaneously, see how infectious yawns really are)
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07:19:22 <esowiki> [[Flurry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70605&oldid=70558 * Challenger5 * (-164)
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13:13:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:2KWLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70606 * LegionMammal978 * (+232) Created page with "Are the Unicode double quotes (<code></code> as opposed to <code>""</code>) part of the syntax, or are they unintentional? ~~~~"
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14:52:17 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nomennominatur * New user account
14:54:31 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70607&oldid=70602 * Nomennominatur * (+113)
14:55:13 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70608&oldid=70607 * Nomennominatur * (+0)
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17:21:17 <tromp> int-e: i'm working on resolving the remaining TODOs in BB.txt
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19:08:01 <MTGBusyBeaver42> For those interested in an update on the MTG deck using The Waterfall Model to get BB numbers while still not going infinite, our current bound is BB_16(120)
19:08:04 <MTGBusyBeaver42> where BB_1(x) is the normal busy beaver function and BB_2(x) is BB_1(x) nested instances of BB_1(x)
19:10:08 <MTGBusyBeaver42> We still have a little room and are no longer restricted to 6 clocks (now over 100)
19:10:50 <MTGBusyBeaver42> what would be helpful would be knowing whether the Flooding variant is Turing complete or not.
19:20:40 <b_jonas> MTGBusyBeaver42: I wanted to ask, what is the defn of BB_k?
19:21:34 <b_jonas> you only say what BB_2 is and it"s not clear how to continue
19:30:08 <b_jonas> also doesn't BB have two inputs, the nr of clocks and the bound on the matrix elements, and you vary only the latter?
19:32:50 <b_jonas> do you always have 120 clocks? what is the matrix elt bound at the start?
19:33:12 <MTGBusyBeaver42> once we have more than 6 clocks we can implement a UTM where the simulated TM is bound by the input
19:33:44 <b_jonas> I mean it might not matter, you get a number that's larger than I can imagine
19:34:08 <MTGBusyBeaver42> we max out our clocks at half the number of creature types
19:35:01 <MTGBusyBeaver42> the 120 constant is the number of large life gains we can get in the setup
19:36:07 <MTGBusyBeaver42> which is mostly from the limits of the opponent's deck size
19:38:17 <MTGBusyBeaver42> We have them draw 53 cards and discard 60 for 113 just from their deck
19:40:49 <b_jonas> how do you get the output value from the waterclock machine?
19:42:07 <MTGBusyBeaver42> we make mana via Mana echoes and turn that into storm for Thousand Year Storm
19:43:14 <MTGBusyBeaver42> And eventually run out of attack steps so we have the last one trample over and kill them
19:45:31 <b_jonas> But what value does that read from the abstract machine? it's just that 120 sounds too small and I want to see this can even start to grow
19:46:21 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70609&oldid=70590 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) /* M */
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19:50:04 <MTGBusyBeaver42> Well theres a bit of rounding being lost in the bound. We get a few iterations just using our starting life total, and we can easily make our starting matrix for the first computation have values far more than 10^^^^10
19:51:31 <MTGBusyBeaver42> which was what ais theorized was required to get BB numbers with the 6 waterclock version
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20:01:50 <MTGBusyBeaver42> (I'm not sure exactly how big we can get the first computation, most of the tiers we get for the BB function also apply to our pre BB setup to get up to 10->10->16, but it doesn't show in the overall estimation)
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20:03:16 <esowiki> [[ADDI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70610&oldid=65119 * LegionMammal978 * (+7730) copied operator tables
20:05:31 <b_jonas> anyway, iterating BB_n BB_n times to get BB_{n+1} is crazy
20:05:38 <MTGBusyBeaver42> so our first computation would last on the order of BB(x) ticks, and we's get BB(x) colorless mana, which becomes BB(x) storm, and then BB(x) extra combat steps at the cost of a red mana
20:05:39 <b_jonas> that will result in even larger numbers than I can imagine
20:06:16 <b_jonas> that sounds crazy big, unless you messed something up and it just doesn't work and the deck can just deal 500 damage or something
20:07:08 <MTGBusyBeaver42> more likely is we have missed an infinite and the deck is disqualified :(
20:07:28 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70611&oldid=70600 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* Syntax */
20:09:16 <b_jonas> BB(BB(10^^^^10)) is already much larger than any number that I can imagine
20:09:23 <b_jonas> very likely even BB(10^^^^10) is
20:15:11 <MTGBusyBeaver42> in that someone has explicitly made a 2 symbol, 1919 state Turing Machine that halts IFF ZFC is inconsistent.
20:15:50 <b_jonas> MTGBusyBeaver42: yes, but that's for the turing machine BB, not for the waterclock BB
20:15:59 <b_jonas> for waterclocks, 1919 is probably not enough
20:16:24 <b_jonas> 10^^^^10 is way more than enough with a few dozen clocks
20:17:11 <b_jonas> that said, that particular 1919 state machine probalby does not halt
20:17:14 <b_jonas> so it doesn't really help you
20:17:52 <b_jonas> the rate, sure, I was just afraid that if you start form 120, then you get something silly like BB(120) = 1, and you can't even start to increase your numbers
20:18:05 <b_jonas> but I hope you checked that that's not the case with your construction
20:19:25 <MTGBusyBeaver42> oh no we can easily grow faster, consider the examples on the tutorial http://nethack4.org/esolangs/waterfall/
20:19:43 <b_jonas> by the way, beaver is particularly thematic for a waterclock machine, because they build dams
20:20:05 <b_jonas> so it should be like "busy ant" for a turing machine, and "busy beaver" for waterclock
20:20:42 <MTGBusyBeaver42> all of the halting examples take more than their maximum value to halt
20:22:20 <MTGBusyBeaver42> and yes, the name and theme of TWM is particularly suited to this challenge
20:23:58 <b_jonas> I guess it would be "busy bee" for a machine with a RAM, and "busy bird" for something based on combinator calculus or lambda calculus
20:25:10 <b_jonas> tromp: do you call it busy bird function?
20:25:22 <b_jonas> the binary lambda calculus one that is
20:27:35 <tromp> lno; i just call it BB_lambda
20:28:13 <tromp> as you can see at https://mathoverflow.net/questions/353514/whats-the-smallest-lambda-calculus-term-not-known-to-have-a-normal-form
20:29:28 <tromp> if you define one for combinators it's gonna grow slower
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20:46:49 <tromp> BB.txt updated in repo
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21:17:41 <zzo38> Can division by zero errors be caught in Turbo Pascal?
21:21:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: division of what type?
21:23:27 <b_jonas> sure, but 16-bit or 32-bit? because 16-bit is a cpu built in instruction, but 32-bit need not be if you're compiling for 286. also, for what target? DOS or Win16?
21:24:00 <b_jonas> for DOS and 16-bit, you can probably just override the interrupt handler, as long as you restore the original handler when your program exits
21:24:08 <zzo38> Sixteen bits. Target is DOS.
21:24:32 <b_jonas> then probably override the interrupt handler.
21:25:05 <b_jonas> turbo pascal has a well-defined register use ABI so you can interface it with machine code
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21:33:19 <zzo38> Do you know if Turbo Pascal has a IF expression (like C has the ?: expression)?
21:33:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't think it has one, but you'll have to check the help
21:34:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: do you need a lazy one?
21:35:17 <b_jonas> I think you need a proper if statement, but I'm not sure
21:35:20 <zzo38> (Of course I can do without, although it would be helpful to have it if it does have.)
21:36:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: could you use borland C++ instead? you can even link compilation units among them together if you write C prototypes of the pascal functions, and compile exported C functions with the pascal calling convention
21:36:50 <b_jonas> it even has a slightly better optimizer
21:37:08 <b_jonas> and a comparably good library that comes with them
21:37:26 <b_jonas> though really ancient, confusing if you are used to modern C or modern C++
21:37:46 <zzo38> I doubt it is a good reason to change everything to C just due to such an operator, since a IF expression isn't really needed
21:37:53 <b_jonas> in particular, be REALLY careful with code that uses the "long long" type, because the borland compiler believes that's just a strange spelling of "long" and accepts it without warning and gives you a 32-bit integer
21:38:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, that alone isn't a good reason to change
21:40:32 <b_jonas> also the pascal compiler is at least small. I could put turbo.exe (the GUI) and the few files it needs (but not the command-line compiler) to my compressed boot floppy with enough space for other programs, that's impossible for the borland C compiler with just a single 1.44 MB floppy
21:41:49 <b_jonas> but then you can probably afford multiple floppies, or a hard disk
21:42:11 <zzo38> Yes, I am storing the files on the hard disk
21:42:32 <b_jonas> termbot had both the pascal and the C compiler runnable from command line from its hard disk
21:43:22 <b_jonas> (but qbasic is very hard to use, because its PRINT statement and error messages don't write to stdout/stderr)
21:44:12 <zzo38> I doubt that C is the best programming language for real-mode PC programming, due to the memory segmentation.
21:44:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: borland C has extensions to C for that
21:45:39 <b_jonas> you can declare pointers that point to specific program segments, dereference pointers to a specific segment, even have variables of type pointer to segment and dereference using those, or just have far or huge pointers
21:46:01 <b_jonas> IIRC there's a special infix operator :> to combine a segment with an offset
21:46:25 <b_jonas> of cousre you may still want to write some or all of your program in assembly, simply because the compiler doesn't optimize too well
21:48:26 <zzo38> The reason I am using Pascal is because I am modifying a program that is already written in Pascal, anyways.
21:49:26 <b_jonas> and do you want to compile it for DOS, as opposed to port it to a more modern linux pascal compiler?
21:50:26 <zzo38> Yes, I am compiling it for DOS. (I have no intention to port this program to other operating systems, although some other people are, either in Pascal or by rewriting it in C.)
21:50:57 <zzo38> It is ZZT. Do you like ZZT?
21:51:22 <b_jonas> I don't know, I don't follow these game engines much
21:55:58 <zzo38> I have made many changes, including removing the editor (in order to save memory; but there are external editors that can be used instead), allowing pushing X to clear the message line during game play, making HOME and END keys work in popup text windows, displaying file modification times in the save game menu, getting rid of the configuration menu and help menu (to save both memory and time), etc
22:03:18 <zzo38> Does DOSBOX implement EMS?
22:05:13 <b_jonas> but if not, there are other emulators
22:12:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: try to run the MEM command, that should at least tell if EMM is enabled in your current config
22:13:22 <zzo38> It says 15168 Kb free expanded memory, so it looks like it is implemented (although I don't know if there are problems with the implementation).
22:18:30 <zzo38> Another emulator is Zeta, which is sometimes used with ZZT, although Zeta does not implement EMS as far as I can tell (even though the author of Zeta has also written the code to allow ZZT to use EMS)
22:20:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: I used Dosbox very little. I just ran most of my DOS programs on a real MS-DOS in a machine emulated by Bochs
22:21:02 <b_jonas> well, after I stopped running native DOS that is
22:24:09 <b_jonas> although that's sort of orthogonal, I have ran Win16 in the Bochs virtual machine
22:32:07 <zzo38> There is only one 16-bit Windows program I intend to run on my computer, which is Hero Mesh, so that I can test the behaviour to see that the behaviour of Free Hero Mesh in compatibility mode matches that of Hero Mesh.
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00:11:16 <ais523> sorry that I haven't been doing much on the M:tG busy beaver construction, I've been too busy playing Netrunner
00:11:24 <ais523> (which, sadly, is probably not Turing-complete; I have tried, of course)
00:48:16 <zzo38> ais523: Did you read my comment of the card game you wrote the rules for? (Also, maybe we can print cards for that game using TeXnicard, if you want to, I suppose)
00:48:27 <zzo38> (I have some other comments too, which I did not mention yet.)
00:50:22 <zzo38> Also, I think some people on this IRC may be playing mahjong? To those people, I want to ask what rule variations do you use, e.g. do you use any red fives (and if so how many), and do you use kuitan ari or kuitan nashi?
01:17:42 <zzo38> Also, what you thinking of the ability counters and other new rules of Magic: the Gathering cards?
01:36:16 <ais523> zzo38: I read your comment but didn't immediately have an opinion about it
01:36:23 <ais523> I'd have to remember how my game worked
01:37:02 <ais523> I think in order to make it into a proper game, you'd need to experiment with multiple versions of the rules until you found something that worked
01:37:19 <zzo38> I have a copy of your file in case you lost it.
01:37:21 <ais523> what are ability counters?
01:37:57 <zzo38> Something new in Magic: the Gathering apparently, that permanents with an ability counter have the corresponding ability.
01:38:16 <ais523> hmm, Netrunner has had that for ages
01:38:21 <zzo38> (I should think a new sublayer would be added to handle this, like there is a sublayer for power/toughness counters, presumably.)
01:38:26 <ais523> they're called "condition counters" and have abilities that affect the card they're on
01:38:34 <ais523> although, the only way to create them is that a card turns itself into the counter
01:38:46 <ais523> (this makes it easy to remember what the counter does, by seeing what card it is)
01:39:36 <zzo38> An idea I had before they did this was ability tokens, which is just another kind of predefined tokens.
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01:44:11 <MTGBusyBeaver42> No worries ais523, there have been a lot of changes to the deck recently packing in more optimizations
01:48:07 <MTGBusyBeaver42> I'm more worried about the judge calls about the new companions
01:48:32 <ais523> in Netrunner? or in M:tG?
01:49:04 <ais523> ah right, I was confused because the new netrunner sets also have a mechanic called "companions" that are likely to cause judge calls
01:49:15 <ais523> (they lead to a lot of undos when playing online, and you can't really play not-online atm…)
01:50:26 <MTGBusyBeaver42> "Companion — Each nonland card in your starting deck has a different name. (If this card is your chosen companion, you may cast it once from outside the game.)"
01:51:18 <ais523> ugh, "starting deck" implies that the restrictions can be met or unmet as a consequence of sideboarding
01:51:26 <MTGBusyBeaver42> not only is that a complete freeroll in any izzet edh deck, its the only restriction that is easy to cheat on
01:51:28 <ais523> if not for that, you could probably just verify them in deck checks
01:53:03 <ais523> anyway, when I saw the Amonkhet spoilers I thought it'd require too many counter/token types to work
01:53:10 <ais523> and still think I was right in retrospect
01:53:20 <ais523> I dislike keyword counters for a similar reason
01:53:51 <zzo38> I dislike ability counters for a different reason, which is namespace collision
01:54:56 <zzo38> (One way to avoid this is to write "flying ability counter" or "banding ability counter" instead of "flying counter" or "banding counter". Although my idea previously was tokens instead anyways, which has its own advantages and disadvantages over this way.)
01:55:55 <ais523> "bands with other creatures with bands with other counters"
01:58:45 <ais523> it demonstrates the namespace collision, though
01:58:50 <ais523> it's really hard to parse
01:59:15 <ais523> fwiw, I think the M10 rules update ruined banding
01:59:24 <ais523> when damage went on the stack, it was pretty easy to explain
01:59:59 <ais523> the more recent version of the combat rules is less loopholey but much more complex, and banding seems more complex still because it effectively sets the combat rules back to the older way of doing things
02:00:32 <zzo38> Yes, although I think some of that has to do with how damage prevention effects work; they work differently before and after Sixth Edition rules.
02:01:32 <zzo38> I don't think banding is too confusing, although there is a problem with the "bands with other" rules, that I wrote some alternative rules for which I think is better and less confusing.
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02:06:41 <zzo38> In Fifth Edition, all damage went on the stack, although it is a different stack than the stack in the modern game. You could also only play spells and abilities that target whatever is on the top of the stack.
02:11:13 <zzo38> (I think destruction events also used the stack; effects which regenerate a permanent targeted the destruction events.)
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02:28:42 <b_jonas> yes, they already know how to handle the case when the card turns itself to an enchantment etc. but they want repeatable effects like on a planeswalker, and if they really want to do those, I admit that then counters that by themselves grant abilities is the cleanest solution.
02:29:20 <b_jonas> I mentioned Balduvian Frostvaker earlier, which has the same problem, it has a repeatable effect that modifies a permanent without a timeout, so you want to mark it somehow
02:29:33 <b_jonas> since you would mark it with a bead anyway, it's better if the rules treat it as a real counter
02:29:36 <zzo38> That is probably correct.
02:30:27 <b_jonas> yes, it gets complicated because there are multiple different types of counters that your deck can give to any creature, but since they want to do such an effect in just this set, ability-granting counters are probably the best
02:33:23 <b_jonas> and yes, it will get ugly even in limited, because in just this one set Ikoria, you can get +1/+1, menace, deathtouch, trample, lifelink, flying, hexproof counters, just from commons and uncommons;
02:34:29 <ais523> it'll likely slow down tournaments a lot, because you can no longer just look at a creature's art and number of counters to know its stats
02:34:45 <b_jonas> and if you have rares, "Chevill, Bane of Monsters" puts bounty counters on any creature, other rares can add first strike, reach, vigilance counters (mind you, first strik counter probably apperas on an unrevealed uncommon too).
02:35:03 <ais523> (OK, sometimes people played auras, but not very often in constructed tournaments)
02:35:08 <b_jonas> it's not a very good gimmick for a set, but there's probably been worse gimmicks
02:35:35 <b_jonas> ais523: and the decisions get hard too, because there are rares that by themself can grant many different type of counters
02:35:40 <ais523> Amonkhet had ridiculously complicated tokens
02:35:57 <ais523> back when I played, tokens were mostly just 1/1 creatures with no abilities, and you could represent them using beads
02:36:24 <zzo38> I just took a piece of paper and tore it and wrote the characteristics of the token on the paper.
02:36:39 <b_jonas> ok, admittedly that's just one card so far, "Vivien, Monster's Advocate" and it puts three types of counters
02:36:55 <b_jonas> plus "Crystalline Giant" which puts counters on itself only, and randomly
02:37:11 <b_jonas> apparently "Crystalline Giant" is rare, not mythic
02:38:00 <b_jonas> ais523: heck no, when I played, tokens were 1/1 green elves and 1/1 black-green elves and 1/1 green saprolings, and you had to distinguish them to know which ones get bonuses from the elf lords
02:38:41 <b_jonas> and I have to follow which ones are tapped, which ones have summoning sickness, and I want to have a lot of them, because the elf decks only wins if it takes the opponent over by growing big
02:38:42 <zzo38> Yes, and for effects which say "non-black" or "protection from black" or otherwise cares about the colors
02:38:53 <b_jonas> so it isn't that trivial to keep up
02:39:44 <ais523> fear isn't used in standard-legal sets nowadays
02:39:56 <ais523> which I think is a pity
02:40:01 <b_jonas> but we were talking about how magic was played back then
02:40:09 <ais523> in old magic, some colors had advantages in the ways that other colors interacted with them
02:40:21 <ais523> e.g. black creatures were harder to destroy, because many removal spells had a "nonblack" requirement
02:40:25 <zzo38> Make up custom (unofficial) sets with fear and whatever else, if you want to do, I think.
02:40:47 <ais523> but nowadays those requirements aren't kept to consistently, so any benefits of a card have to be on the card itself
02:41:02 <ais523> I guess it's clearer to new players to do it that way
02:43:59 <b_jonas> ais523: right, with Terror and Befoul (target nonblack nonartifact creature). but then it got uglier because we started to run removal like Doom Blade (target nonblack), Deathmark (target green or white creature), Soul Reap (target nongreen creature), Eyeblight's Ending (target non-Elf creature), and more weird ones
02:44:08 <b_jonas> as well as universal ones that just target any creature of course
02:44:48 <b_jonas> and those are just the black removal spells, the white ones are weird in different ways
02:44:58 <b_jonas> the black ones and the white ones also have varying effects
02:45:24 <b_jonas> it all gets complicated if you don't just run a red deck with simple lightning bolt style spells
02:46:05 <b_jonas> at least we lost "it can't be regenerated" clauses, which is a good thing
02:48:30 <ais523> I think that regenerate should have been templated as "the next time this creature would die, regenerate it instead"
02:48:43 <ais523> (with the word "regenerate" redefined to fit the new template)
02:48:49 <ais523> that would be much clearer on how regeneration works
02:49:14 <b_jonas> ais523: it might not fit on some of the more complicated cards though
02:49:15 <zzo38> What I don't like about "regenerate" is how it means two different things (although related), so that would help. However, I think that text is too long.
02:52:09 <b_jonas> regenerate is probably bad because it is one of those complicated keywords that appeared on many cards since early sets and the rules had to maintain and its use was continued as a sort of tradition, similar to protection and banding
02:52:36 <b_jonas> it's possible that the early sets shouldn't have started that tradition, but it's sort of too late now, and it would be even uglier to have a different regenerate-like ability in parallel
02:54:10 <ais523> such an ability exists and is commonly used, "gains indestructible until end of turn"
02:54:14 <b_jonas> this is still better than the simpler abilities that existed in lots of different versions, like reach, shroud, hexproof, lifelink, deathtouch, and all those triggers that grant +X/+X when the creature is (a) attacking (b) blocking (c) blocked (d) unblocked (c) blocked but with multipilicity (f) blocking but with multiplicity etc
02:54:18 <zzo38> I think regenerate, protection, and banding are all fine, although the wording for regeneration is bad due to how I mentioned.
02:55:05 <b_jonas> ais523: gains indestructible is somewhat more powerful though, because it doesn't remove the creature from combat
02:55:25 <b_jonas> though that only matters if there's more than one damage assignment time I guess
02:55:53 <zzo38> Yes. One card I made up though is "Universal Salvation", which regenerates all permanents when it resolves.
02:56:09 <zzo38> I have also written cards with "regenerate and then destroy this permanent".
02:56:20 <HackEso> Bear Umbra \ 2GG \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ Enchanted creature gets +2/+2 and has "Whenever this creature attacks, untap all lands you control." \ Totem armor (If enchanted creature would be destroyed, instead remove all damage from it and destroy this Aura.) \ ROE-R
02:56:33 <b_jonas> ^ this is how regenerate should have been done originally, but it's incompatible with our regenerate
02:57:38 <b_jonas> with "The next time this creature would be destroyed" for repeatable abilities of course
02:58:41 <b_jonas> also lets you use {T} abilities of the creature after combat
02:58:52 <b_jonas> yes, I guess that one is somewhat similar to what ais suggests
02:59:15 <b_jonas> the "gains indestructible until end of turn"
02:59:37 <b_jonas> that might indeed be better
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03:07:15 <zzo38> I like the way regeneration works; it prevents from destruction only once rather than twice, and the regenerated permanent is tapped, too, which can be meaningful.
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03:10:47 <ais523> I think creatures should have to tap to block
03:11:24 <ais523> it'd be easier to track the gamestate, and also reduce the number of unintuitive interactions (like blocking with Prodigal Pyromancer and also tapping it, to damage the creature it's blocking twice)
03:14:51 <zzo38> I do not think it is unintuitive.
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03:35:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Baba is program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70612&oldid=67809 * Hakerh400 * (+953) Updated the interpreter to match the specification
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05:31:39 <esowiki> [[Intramodular Transaction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70613&oldid=66136 * Hakerh400 * (+15)
05:36:37 <zzo38> I thought making up a keyword ability for Magic: the Gathering where you can play the card from the ante zone (if you own it), at the cost of anteing two cards of your choice from your hand (in addition to any other applicable costs).
05:42:01 <esowiki> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70614&oldid=67426 * Voltage2007 * (-210)
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08:09:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nonameremote * New user account
08:10:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70615&oldid=70608 * Nonameremote * (+109)
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12:45:39 <int-e> tromp: I see you filled the gaps for BB(32)
12:47:54 <tromp> yep. so we can consider the 298 proven
12:48:13 <tromp> i'll work on 33 cases next
12:48:32 <tromp> to see if 1812 is true max
12:49:33 <tromp> computations for 34 seemm to blow up (using way obave 32GB)
12:52:06 <int-e> Yeah, I have not investigated why.
12:53:38 <int-e> I tried lowering the depth and then it went through, but it didn't produce the right maximum either (leaving the (\1 1 1 1) (\\2 (2 1)) case to be done)
12:57:37 <int-e> But tbh I was after low-hanging fruits only anyway... so 31 was a very sweet spot to stop in that regard.
13:12:05 <tromp> i sure am curious to see if BB(34) > 5*2^16+6 though :)
13:44:49 <rain1> can #esoteric recommend any youtube channels?
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14:46:51 <esowiki> [[Aeon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70616&oldid=68588 * LegionMammal978 * (+24) fixed link
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16:50:16 <HackEso> olist 1198: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
16:50:45 <b_jonas> rain: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiyuYC0D4-AO0AonCfMifPQ hr-Sinfonieorchester – Frankfurt Radio Symphony
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17:59:20 <esowiki> [[Nope.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70617&oldid=70614 * Areallycoolusername * (-11) The C Interpreter is not official. The C++, VB.Net, and brainfuck interpreters are.
17:59:47 <esowiki> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70618&oldid=70617 * Areallycoolusername * (+2)
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18:42:16 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70619&oldid=70611 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Operators */
18:42:17 <zzo38> Recently someone posted to my NNTP about a chess variant called "corona chess", in which pieces only move 1 square distances, and must go home every 10th move. I think there are some problems with that, and it could be improved, though.
18:45:51 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70620&oldid=70619 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-19) /* Gotos */
18:46:40 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70621&oldid=70620 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+52) /* Syntax */
18:50:24 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70622&oldid=70621 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+67) /* Operators */
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19:12:37 <zzo38> I can set up a NNTP to discuss the card game that ais523 was making, if this is wanted (or ais523 can set it up on their own server, if they have one).
19:19:45 <zzo38> I do have some other ideas. One is flags, which is another statistic; a card might either have or not have a flag. I can also think of a possible overspill effect for reconnaissance; one possibility is moving cards from the bottom of your spent pile to the bottom of your regular pile (maybe I mentioned this already). I also have some ideas about layers (this is kind of similar to the layers in Magic: the Gathering, but without any time
19:21:33 <zzo38> The set of flags would be fixed by the rules, and which ones are defined is according to what would be needed. I am not so sure I like the rule about max health reductions, although I don't know what would be better.
19:25:20 <zzo38> The layers might be: [I] Deleting aspects. [II] Adding aspects. [III] Changing flags; if the same number of effects add and remove the same flag, the flag remains unchanged, otherwise whichever is more wins. [IV] Numerical effects (addition and subtraction of constant or calculated values, as described by the existing rules). [V] Adding manoeuvres. [VI] Deleting manoeuvres.
19:25:49 <zzo38> Aspects can see the changes made by previous layers but not changes made by the current layer. Later layers override earlier layers.
19:29:31 <zzo38> (If an effect alters a manoeuvre without adding or deleting it, it is treated as though it adds the altered one and deletes the old one, and is treated as a layer V effect for the purpose of determining what values it can see. This means that layer VI effects will see both the original and altered manoeuvre.)
19:48:09 <zzo38> Another idea is to use some computer programming language to implement these rules, perhaps in Haskell.
20:02:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GigoG * New user account
20:08:37 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70623&oldid=70615 * GigoG * (+165) /* Introductions */
20:09:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70624&oldid=70623 * GigoG * (+120) /* Introductions */
20:10:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70625&oldid=70624 * GigoG * (-52) /* Introductions */
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20:21:08 <ais523> zzo38: I did have an idea about layers, although it might restrict the cards you could make too much
20:21:18 <ais523> the idea was to design the cards so that the layer sequence never mattered
20:22:53 <esowiki> [[Magenta]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70626&oldid=30997 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+230) Now you too can read about bear food
20:27:21 <zzo38> Actually, I thought of adding the layers for the opposite reason, since the lack of timestamps makes some restrictions anyways, this layer system I suggest would add more flexibility; there are some things that are immutable anyways, with or without layers, and some effects which don't work anyways. I think the current system you have doesn't work at all with effects other than adjusting numerical values anyways.
20:34:00 <esowiki> [[Arbol]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70627&oldid=25343 * LegionMammal978 * (+78) /* External resources */ fixed link
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22:02:38 <esowiki> [[AttoASM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70628&oldid=33532 * LegionMammal978 * (-104) /* External resources */ fixed link
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00:11:42 <esowiki> [[Az]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70629&oldid=40982 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
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00:28:58 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70630&oldid=70622 * Hakerh400 * (+128) Add interpreter
00:29:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Minimal operation language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70631 * Hakerh400 * (+320) /* Implementation */
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01:03:39 <esowiki> [[BugSophia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70632&oldid=30922 * IFcoltransG * (+23) Languages category
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05:01:33 <zzo38> Actually ais523's card game design already has one thing that can be called a flag, which is the "General" flag. However, I have ideas of a few other flags, such as one flag that allows you to play other manoeuvres (except ones with the tactics track as source) before giving your opponent the chance to play, after playing to the tactics track.
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05:35:51 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is starving for attention.
05:35:54 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is starving for attention.
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08:17:47 <zzo38> Do you have any of Bohm's brainfuck programs?
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09:46:57 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70634&oldid=70582 * RocketRace * (+2517) Detail the statement syntax.
10:10:19 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70635&oldid=70634 * RocketRace * (+49) Fix formatting
10:12:04 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70636&oldid=70635 * RocketRace * (+21) Further fix formatting
10:13:04 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70637&oldid=70636 * RocketRace * (+47) Wording
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11:32:23 <esowiki> [[Preposterous Programming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70638&oldid=21367 * IFcoltransG * (+22) Added concepts category
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11:59:42 <esowiki> [[Preposterous Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70639&oldid=35673 * IFcoltransG * (+342) Wording rewrite and categories
12:00:23 <esowiki> [[Preposterous Programming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70640&oldid=70638 * IFcoltransG * (+34) Added Computational Models category
12:00:54 <esowiki> [[Preposterous Programming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70641&oldid=70640 * IFcoltransG * (+0) Sheepishly fix category capitalisation
12:04:39 <esowiki> [[SimPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70642&oldid=70570 * IFcoltransG * (+0) Fixed TC category
13:25:06 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70643&oldid=70630 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35)
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16:39:03 <tromp> int-e: many of the TODOs in 32 and 33 follow a pattern similar to the one for 29
16:40:47 <tromp> the most general pattern that captures them is T = \x. K^j x^k (\y. y (x y ...))
16:41:36 <tromp> oops, I should add some parentheses as in T = \x. K^j (x^k (\y. y (x y ...)))
16:42:06 <tromp> where K is const function; I could also write \_ ... \_ instead of K^j
16:42:30 <tromp> and k >= 1 of course, making T strict
16:44:31 <tromp> If we then set T_0 = T, and T_{i+1} = \y. y (T_i y ...), then we can show by induction that T T_i reduces to a tern with T T_{i+1} in head position
16:44:39 <tromp> thus proving divergence
16:46:14 <tromp> so we can try to define this pattern with a function isW2, and then replace isW a && isW b by isW a && (isW b || isW2 b)
16:46:22 <tromp> which should eliminate a lot of TODOs
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19:08:51 <esowiki> [[BAM128]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70644&oldid=32357 * LegionMammal978 * (+42) /* External resources */ fixed link, added categories
19:15:42 <zzo38> Do you know how to convert Fermat's Last Theorem into a Magic: the Gathering puzzle?
19:19:44 <esowiki> [[Duck Duck Goose]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70645&oldid=70594 * LegionMammal978 * (-19) updated link
19:19:55 <esowiki> [[Cheers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70646&oldid=70557 * LegionMammal978 * (-10) updated link
19:20:06 <esowiki> [[Noodle Soup]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70647&oldid=70536 * LegionMammal978 * (-15) updated link
19:20:17 <esowiki> [[And]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70648&oldid=70535 * LegionMammal978 * (-11) updated link
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21:03:54 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Zerojl * New user account
21:06:10 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70649&oldid=70625 * Zerojl * (+58)
21:08:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70650&oldid=70649 * Zerojl * (+54)
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21:48:53 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70651&oldid=70650 * JonoCode9374 * (+21)
23:02:05 <esowiki> [[Backpackr]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70652&oldid=54153 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
23:48:32 <esowiki> [[List of quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70653&oldid=69331 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+72) /* Cheating Quines */
23:58:27 <zzo38> One of the AI opponents in Pokemon Card GB2 has a "invincible deck", which would be good if the AI was not too stupid to handle it.
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02:20:07 <esowiki> [[Beeswax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70654&oldid=50725 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
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02:26:31 <esowiki> [[Binary lambda calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70655&oldid=60332 * IFcoltransG * (+436) Added IO description
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02:37:08 <esowiki> [[Beta-Juliet and Portia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70656&oldid=30458 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
02:38:12 <zzo38> I loaded DOSBOX and then it was just black and wouldn't respond to any keys, nor to SIGINT, although SIGQUIT did terminate it. Di you know why?
02:47:58 <zzo38> O, it seems to do that due to a recursive batch file. But I should think it should still try to allow to be interrupted in such a case?
03:02:57 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Bfstack]] to [[BFStack]]: fix capitalization
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09:42:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Minimal operation language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70659&oldid=70631 * A * (+181)
09:45:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Minimal operation language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70660&oldid=70659 * A * (+5)
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11:25:10 <esowiki> [[Pikobrain]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70661 * Hanzlu * (+295) Created page with "Pikobrain is an operative system created by [[User:Hanzlu]], link: [https://github.com/Hanzlu/Pikobrain]. I guess you could call it esoteric. Files are accessed by numbers. I..."
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13:15:52 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70662&oldid=70643 * A * (+91) /* Resources */
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14:57:01 <tromp> funny to see dutch article that "Beavers are on the rise"
14:58:13 <tromp> as we're studying here just how fast the busy beaver function rises:)
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15:31:18 <esowiki> [[Binodu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70663&oldid=27204 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
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15:46:53 <cpressey> Well anyway there's https://catseye.tc/installation/Mascarpone running on a web page now
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15:52:42 <cpressey> Next I'm going to try update Burro. Not just putting it on a web page, lots of stuff needs updating there.
15:59:08 <esowiki> [[BitZ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70664&oldid=46435 * LegionMammal978 * (+28) /* External resources */ fixed link
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16:37:58 <esowiki> [[Blo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70665&oldid=46273 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
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18:34:59 <_________more> out of the people on this channel, how many of you are on the unofficial esolangs discord?
18:40:25 <_________more> it seems weird to me that the communities operate almost entirely separately...
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18:50:08 <int-e> Hmm, I have not thought about what the fruit would be.
18:51:12 <int-e> I imagine it's really just more discord.
19:07:15 <int-e> arseniiv: no, you got it all wrong; it's easy to disagree, which is why discord is so common :P
19:08:07 <HackEso> The unofficial Esolangs and code golf Discord server: https://discord.gg/3UXSK5p
19:12:16 <arseniiv> int-e: I disagree I got it all wrong
19:12:33 <int-e> that's the spirit.
19:12:40 <arseniiv> maybe it was wrong before I got it :P
19:16:30 <arseniiv> . o O ( irony is the kind of taste you feel when you are the fat lady of Limbourg and you taste a sample of iron )
19:26:34 <int-e> irony is too serious to joke about
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19:53:31 <arseniiv> I was tinkering with my router. I think no luck
19:54:18 <int-e> the route of all evil
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20:29:44 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[BotEngine]] to [[Bot Engine]]: changed spacing to match repo
20:30:06 <esowiki> [[Bot Engine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70668&oldid=70666 * LegionMammal978 * (+2) spacing
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20:38:00 <zzo38> I thought one idea a keyword ability in Magic: the Gathering which allows playing the card from the ante zone if you ante cards from your hand, possibly also affecting the cost by doing so too, somehow.
20:44:19 <esowiki> [[Folders]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70669&oldid=61575 * Rottytooth * (-661) Moved now-obsolete "concise folders" to "previous versions"
20:45:31 <tromp> int-e: after implementing my W2, there are only 7 TODOs for 33
20:45:57 <esowiki> [[Folders]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70670&oldid=70669 * Rottytooth * (+97) details for "literal value" storage
20:47:59 <tromp> see latest commit. let me know if you find a bug in the new rule
20:51:10 <esowiki> [[Folders]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70671&oldid=70670 * Rottytooth * (+79) /* Expressions */
20:51:16 <tromp> or in its implementation
20:53:33 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70672&oldid=70662 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+145) /* Syntax */
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21:52:48 <esowiki> [[Folders]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70673&oldid=70671 * Rottytooth * (+527) /* Instructions */
22:01:47 <esowiki> [[BrainSpace 1.0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70674&oldid=14790 * LegionMammal978 * (+101) fixed links
22:04:12 <tromp> int-e: i suspect there is some simpler generalization of your W that includes my W2
22:20:28 <tromp> how about B^V ::= W^V W^V | W^V B^V | \v. B^V | B^V T ?
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23:53:54 <esowiki> [[Brainflop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70675&oldid=67836 * LegionMammal978 * (+18) fixed link
00:22:15 <zzo38> Actually, I like the idea of the ability counter which allows it to band with other creatures that also have that counter. (Tokens will not work so well in this case.)
00:34:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70676&oldid=70660 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+231) /* Clarification */
00:36:07 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70677&oldid=70672 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) /* Gotos */ I see why you were cobfused
00:37:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70678&oldid=70676 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38)
00:40:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70679&oldid=70581 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+67)
00:43:49 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70680&oldid=70679 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2)
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00:47:12 <esowiki> [[Brains]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70681&oldid=24741 * LegionMammal978 * (+39) fixed link
00:50:51 <esowiki> [[Brainstack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70682&oldid=69681 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
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02:19:09 <tswett[m]> Also, equating cardinality with size.
02:20:25 <tswett[m]> We all know that R has a greater cardinality than N. But I don't think we should define "bigger" as "having a greater cardinality", and so I don't think we should necessarily consider R to be *bigger* than N.
02:41:45 <zzo38> Then how should you define "bigger"?
02:53:15 <tswett[m]> I don't think "bigger" necessarily needs to mean anything.
02:54:22 <tswett[m]> Though of course, from a practical standpoint, it's *useful* to use the word "bigger" to mean "having a greater cardinality".
02:55:12 <zzo38> Yes, that's what I thought.
02:56:19 <tswett[m]> Just like it's useful to use the word "open" to mean "containing a neighborhood around every point".
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03:14:54 <esowiki> [[Folders]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70683&oldid=70673 * Rottytooth * (+0) type correction
03:50:17 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Softengy * New user account
03:55:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70684&oldid=70651 * Softengy * (+176)
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04:32:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70685&oldid=68845 * Softengy * (+237)
04:41:50 <esowiki> [[ELIP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70686&oldid=24473 * IFcoltransG * (+30) Added category
04:42:32 <esowiki> [[ELIP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70687&oldid=70686 * IFcoltransG * (+1) Fixed category
04:43:24 <esowiki> [[ELIP/Unlambda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70688&oldid=24425 * IFcoltransG * (+30) Added category
05:05:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DomJob * New user account
05:26:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70689&oldid=70684 * DomJob * (+249)
05:26:24 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70690&oldid=66763 * DomJob * (+286) Added an algorithm for x or y
05:56:00 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70691&oldid=70690 * Int-e * (+45) /* z = x or y (boolean, logical) (wrapping) */ golfing
05:57:00 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70692&oldid=70691 * Int-e * (-1) /* z = x or y (boolean, logical) (wrapping) */ match indentation
06:01:50 <int-e> way too many different styles of commenting the code
06:03:29 <int-e> Oh, there's a convention for temporary location introduced at the very top, that resolves some of the confusion.
06:31:16 <tromp> int-e: the generalized rule gives no TODO's up to 31, 6 for 32 (of which 4 are handled by another rule), and only 3 for 33
06:42:20 <tromp> including the 5*2^16+6 one
06:43:03 <tromp> largest non-TODO at 34 is 27380
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07:15:38 <tromp> starts swapping at 35 after finding 12 TODOs
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07:23:56 <int-e> tromp: impressive. I wonder how far this can push the halting probability.
07:30:09 <tromp> still focussing on BB for now, which is less arbitrary than blc halting probability (which depends on my IO conventions)
07:34:00 <tromp> can you check the generalization in BB.txt ?
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07:40:25 <int-e> I will get around to it.
07:42:11 <int-e> I am tinkering more on the AIT side of things though... I've decided I don't like the KP definition all that much, because programs can cheat too easily (looking ahead on the input) and once you enhance the universal machine to prevent that, it can actually compute the tail itself.
07:44:23 <int-e> (KP is the definition where programs are supposed to produce pairs <o,xs> where o is the result and xs is the unconsumed input; my tinkering basically drops the xs part.)
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07:56:03 <tromp> i thought programs couldn't cheat
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07:58:14 <tromp> as they can never apply the z in U(p:z)
07:59:03 <tromp> how is dropping the xs part different from using KS ?
07:59:24 <tromp> oh, no input end marker, ok
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08:03:28 <int-e> Yeah, the end of input is determined by the last cons (if any) that is forced during evaluation evaluation to normal form.
08:04:41 <int-e> It's actually fairly pleasant to define (much in contrast to Chaitin's universal machine, which I find quite crazy) if you use open lists with nil = omega (ensuring the absence of a normal form when the tail is inspected by the program).
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08:07:23 <int-e> (Chaitin's machine (from his thesis/book, chapter 6) evaluates all prefixes and suffixes together with the given program and takes the result of the first one to terminate... in order to ensure prefix-free programs. Which makes it awful to actually implement...)
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08:10:17 <int-e> Err, just the input, not the (lisp-ish) program itself. But that's bad enough, really.
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08:14:15 <tromp> yes, chaitin's construction is a horrible hack
08:16:09 <int-e> (I reread that chapter last month, for the first time in 10 years I guess, and I finally got what that machine is doing.)
08:18:34 <int-e> Hmm, of course programs-with-inputs also define a Busy Beaver function.
08:19:01 <Phantom__Hoover> the SKI translation in the article is pretty clunky though, i'm interested in minimal translations
08:19:36 <int-e> (A Busy Beaver function for every flavor... oh well, that should not be a surprise; you have one for every model of computation that has a quantifiable program size.)
08:24:00 <Phantom__Hoover> it's somewhat interesting that leading 1s in a program are pointless
08:24:43 <int-e> I don't really like Iota/Jot, it's sacrificing too much for perceived minimality (compared to SK combinatory logic)
08:26:25 <int-e> It's also sacrificing too much (for my taste) if your goal is to assign a program to every bit string.
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08:29:40 <int-e> It's so, what's the word you used, clunky.
08:33:18 <Phantom__Hoover> the injection of SKI into jot is, the mapping from jot into the lambda calculus is very sleek
08:33:51 <int-e> I mean, it is an amazing feat in some way... making {AB} -> 1{A}{B} work, in particular, is impressive (though it's intimately tied to the translations of K and S. But 5 bits for K and 8 for S is ridiculous. And if you don't stick to the fragment defined by {.} I honestly have no clue what programs mean. Neither [F] S K nor S (K [F]) really make much operational sense to me.
08:34:53 <int-e> Just use ordered pairs to encode binary trees like everybody else.
08:36:27 <int-e> Phantom__Hoover: Let me stress again that this is a matter of taste to me. There's nothing objectively wrong with Iota or Jot, I think. They're just ugly ;-)
08:37:21 <tromp> i'm in perfect agreement with int-e :-)
08:37:56 <tromp> might be that we have similar taste...
08:42:26 <Phantom__Hoover> clearly the vast majority of programs aren't simple encodings of SKI expressions so what's going on there?
08:43:27 <int-e> I expect it's just a terrible mess of chaos. Not that I've ever stared into that abyss at any depth ;)
08:44:18 <Phantom__Hoover> (this all started when i wondered how to encode church lists of ascii text out of boredom with normal online 'translate your text to binary!' converters)
08:46:00 <int-e> tromp: I think we both like lambda calculus (and by extension, combinatory logic--I don't think either of us can program combinatory logic directly, but abstraction elimination does the trick without blowing programs up too much), and we both can be tracked down into golfing efforts (which favor concise encodings, obviously).
08:47:22 <int-e> Phantom__Hoover: If you find a way to navigate the swamp (yeah I'm changing analogies) that lies off the trodden path defined by {.}, I think you can really impress a few people :)
08:48:55 <tromp> you could see how far you get with a BB_jot
08:49:42 <int-e> How do you even measure the result size?
08:50:14 <tromp> there's always the blc size:-)
08:51:31 <int-e> or bcl size, I guess
08:52:31 <int-e> But I guess this is another source of ugliness... you can't do evaluation in the language that you write your programs in.
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08:53:01 <Phantom__Hoover> yes that's another issue, there are no clear reduction rules in terms of the 1/0 language
08:53:34 <int-e> Phantom__Hoover: Anyway I don't want to discourage you from studying this beast.
08:54:28 <Phantom__Hoover> i'll be impressed if i can find a concise encoding of 2 tbh
08:55:35 <Phantom__Hoover> oh there's another snag which is that the majority of jot programs arent in 'normal form', i.e. the 1[A][B] construction is invalid for them
08:56:10 <Phantom__Hoover> but you can get around that by padding it on the left with enough 1s, and i think the number required is in general significantly less than you get from {.}
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11:41:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Minimal operation language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70693&oldid=70678 * A * (+147) Forgot to sign
11:45:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70694&oldid=70680 * A * (+5001)
11:45:33 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70695&oldid=70694 * A * (-13)
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11:48:13 <arseniiv> int-e: tromp: Phantom__Hoover: hm seems Jot enjoys a very interesting rule jot (f (unjot s)) = (jot f) s, how was it derived (don’t see it at Chris Barker’s page on it) and wasn’t that how Iota/Jot was constructed in the first place?
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12:34:56 <int-e> arseniiv: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iota_and_Jot#Jot sketches a proof of that
12:37:07 <arseniiv> int-e: thanks, the more general form of that statement, with arbitrary w, helps
14:23:24 <tromp> int-e: i checked all my TODOs for 34. so we can say that BB(34) = 5*2^16+6 = 327686
14:24:24 <tromp> that cannot happen with TM BB; predicting a value far in advance of checking it:)
14:25:10 <int-e> Well, granularity.
14:25:24 <int-e> What is a 34 bit TM? :)
14:26:12 <tromp> a 4 state TM takes more than 34 bits to describe
14:26:21 <int-e> Also up to this point the fairly naive filters (not counting the W or W2 criteria which are a bit more clever) have been embarrassingly effective.
14:27:21 <int-e> (I still haven't looked at the W2 thing, and I think it'll be a couple of days before I do... I really want to give this problem a bit of thought first.)
14:27:57 <int-e> There is also some simplicity to BLC.
14:28:51 <tromp> yes, it's simpler, more fine-grained, faster growing, and naturally expressed in bits. seems better in every respect...
14:30:03 <int-e> The thing is, on an abstract level, what makes programming feasible is code reusage... giving a piece of code a name, and using it by that name somewhere else. Lambda calculus basically turns that principle into an evaluation mechanism, using substitution to put code where it's used so it can be evaluated. So it's eminently programmable, which is in stark contrast to Turing Machines.
14:30:56 <int-e> So perhaps it's not completely surprising that the human understandable (\x. x x x x) 2 is also an actual good busy beaver.
14:31:33 <int-e> (At least once you discover the Church numeral accident that exponentiation is just application.)
14:32:54 <int-e> But I still think the main factor is the better granularity of measuring program size.
14:38:02 <int-e> Is there an analogue for http://oeis.org/A052200 (number of n-state 2-symbol TMs) modulo the obvious symmetries (permuting states, and I guess demanding that all states are reachable, at least in the graph given by the state transition diagram?)
14:39:39 <int-e> > log (20^8/24)/log 2 -- naive estimate
14:48:55 <int-e> tromp: So... if we count closed terms... we reach that number (20^8/24) at size 41...
15:03:12 <tromp> the normal count is (4n+4)^2n for n state TMs
15:10:03 <tromp> 4*2*log(4*4+4) = 34.6
15:15:01 <tromp> in a straighforward encoding, you're use a whole number of bits per transition, and it would rise to 4*2*ceil(log(4*4+4)) = 40
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15:44:02 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70696&oldid=70692 * Softengy * (+59) Added improved x = x * x algorithm
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16:10:56 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70697&oldid=70696 * Softengy * (+1) Edit to work with x=0 and not require wrapping
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16:12:42 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70698&oldid=70697 * Softengy * (-6) /* x = x * x */ Fixed algorithm from incorrect previous edit
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17:06:36 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70699&oldid=70698 * Softengy * (+367) /* x = x / y */ Added wrapping algorithm
17:49:22 <Phantom__Hoover> well i started enumerating all jot programs to find 2 but i gave up on trying it in web browser haskell
18:15:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70700&oldid=70685 * Softengy * (+257)
18:21:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70701&oldid=70700 * Softengy * (+228) Improved algorithm for x = x != y
18:28:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[CaneCode]] to [[Cane Code]]: fix spacing
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19:45:52 <esowiki> [[Chevron]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70704&oldid=69927 * LegionMammal978 * (+15) fixed title
20:08:14 <kspalaiologos> My paper about Mersenne Twister cracking method I used for Seed golfing will be publicly available in Phrack Magazine p71
20:08:29 <kspalaiologos> also, there's a sneak peek on my homepagE: http://kspalaiologos.now.im/?id=9
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21:50:43 <esowiki> [[Seed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70705&oldid=66263 * Ais523 * (+109) link to kspalaiologos's guide to Seed programming
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21:52:04 <ais523> kspalaiologos: I was interested, although your algorithm is more complex than I expected; I was expecting there to be an instant reversal that produced optimal output, but maybe not?
21:53:04 <ais523> I looked into reversing LCRNGs a while back, if you have all the bits it's trivial, if you have only a few bits of consecutive elements then reversing the sequence appears to be NP-complete but typically easy in practice
21:53:26 <ais523> (I forget the details but vaguely remember that you might be able to encode the subset sum problem in it)
21:57:41 <zzo38> Play Washizu Scrabble, which like Washizu mahjong, you can see half of your opponent's cards, it is played with teams, and only one player on each team has a score that counts.
22:03:25 <esowiki> [[Seed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70706&oldid=70705 * Ais523 * (+777) reference formatting, cats, difference between Turing- and -complete, the existing proof is for -hardness but Turing-completeness is also possible
22:04:54 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how hard it is to write a Befunge-98 program which you can append anything to, and the resulting program will calculates its own length in bytes and interpret that as a program in some TC language
22:05:11 <ais523> err, anything made up of printable ASCII and newlines
22:05:23 <ais523> I guess there's an issue that trailing newlines might or might not be visible
22:05:35 <fizzie> Trailing spaces on a line wouldn't be visible either.
22:05:50 <ais523> ah yes, and that could be a larger problem
22:06:08 <ais523> hmm, Seed would actually still be TC if the Befunge-98 program ignored whitespace
22:06:34 <ais523> it'd be harder to calculate the length value you needed, but still fairly easy, as that only requires running the Mersenne Twister forwards and observing where the whitespace would be output
22:07:09 <ais523> there are some interpreters where you can deduce the presence of trailing spaces, though, aren't there?
22:08:03 <fizzie> I imagine so, but I don't think there's a portable way. Even the 'y' command's bounding box is defined in terms of "a non-space cell", not the original program source.
22:08:24 <fizzie> (Even though it goes on to say: "These two vectors are useful to give to the o instruction to output the entire program source as a text file.")
22:11:31 <ais523> I guess you could "simply" multiply the length value by 2¹⁹⁹³⁷-1 and have the program detect how many repeats of itself existed, although that would require proving that passing the Mersenne Twister through the modulo operation didn't create an output with a quotiented period
22:13:46 <b_jonas> Knuth's SGB defines a defines a random number generator based on linear feedback. it's a pity that that one didn't become as well spread and used as a standard as the Mersenne twister. it's probably because SGB doesn't define an initialization method that takes more than a word of seed.
22:15:15 <ais523> the Mersenne Twister's internal state is kind-of ridiculous :-D
22:15:36 <ais523> is there a benefit to having it that large?
22:18:48 <b_jonas> ais523: dunno. the SGB random generator has an internal state of 55 words, 32 bits each, plus an index into that.
22:22:23 <ais523> NH4's PRNG has a 96-bit state, IIRC
22:23:04 <b_jonas> ais523: but that has a different goal, doesn't it? NH4 wants to have an RNG that at least tries to be cryptographically secure, and sacrifices speed for that.
22:23:39 <b_jonas> the Mersenne twister and the linear consomething generators don't try to be crypto secure at all, instead they try to be as fast as possible on near future machines when they were designed
22:25:09 <b_jonas> TAOCP chapter 3.6 exercise 7 asks you to show that a linear congruential generator is very bad for cryptography, as in, find an attack
22:26:13 <ais523> NH4's PRNG is not cryptographically secure, there are two requirements for cryptographic security, it only aims to satisfy one of them
22:26:39 <ais523> (specifically, it cares about the property that observed output cannot be used to deduce future output, but not about any other CSPRNG properties)
22:27:23 <b_jonas> ais523: I know it's not cryptographically secure, but it at least tries to be closer to it
22:28:17 <b_jonas> right, it wants to make it hard to predict future outputs, whereas the Mersenne twister (and lcgs and multiply random generators) don't
22:28:41 <b_jonas> that already makes NH4's random generator necessarily somewhat slower
22:28:51 <b_jonas> to make it fully cryptographically secure would be an overkill and even slower
22:29:37 <b_jonas> ais523: doesn't NH4 also care about that you can't deduce anything about past output other than what was told to you?
22:30:12 <ais523> I haven't seen that mentioned as a cryptosecurity property in the past
22:30:30 <b_jonas> that's because it's implied by stronger properties I think
22:30:39 <b_jonas> anyway, 96 bits seems pretty small even for that,
22:30:42 <ais523> right, the stronger property is "you can't deduce past output from knowledge of the seed"
22:30:52 <b_jonas> but then, we're not basing our banking system on the NH4 random generator, it's just a game
22:31:16 <ais523> and of course, if you /can/ deduce past output from future output, then you can deduce it from knowledge of the seed simply by generating some future output from it and using it to calculate past output
22:31:32 <b_jonas> ais523: that's not quite precise
22:31:57 <b_jonas> I also require that you can't deduce past output from the combination of future output and other past output before that
22:32:01 <ais523> "you can't deduce past output from knowledge of the current internal state" is the precise formulation, I think
22:32:08 <ais523> oh, of the property that NH4 has
22:32:09 <b_jonas> just the current seed isn't enough for that
22:34:18 <ais523> "if you have a sequence of RNG outputs where some are unknown, you can't deduce the unknown elements from the known elements"
22:34:51 <ais523> of course this is trivially false if the length of the sequence exceeds the period of the RNG, but we're assuming that the number of outputs which will ever be requested is small compared to the period
22:35:02 <b_jonas> ais523: sort of, but technically you need even stronger, because your knowledge need not be granular to individual elements of the sequence
22:35:35 <b_jonas> what is the period of the NH4 random generator (at an order of magnitude)?
22:36:01 <ais523> same as the state size, 2⁹⁶
22:36:42 <ais523> well, I don't know that for certain, but if it isn't, the cryptographic hash I'm using is utterly broken :-D
22:39:05 <ais523> actually, it's pretty certain that the period is 2⁹⁶ because the only way it couldn't be would be if the hash function ignored the first bit of its input entirely if it happened to be exactly 96 bits long
22:39:21 <ais523> and there's no way that brokenness of that magnitude wouldn't be noticed
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00:41:08 <esowiki> [[Function x(y)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70710&oldid=70475 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) /* Syntax */ Yes // is Integer divison
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00:51:38 <imode> maybe some common sense can set me straight: I'm building a service. bit of a "high-class" version of LambdaMOO with an economy attached to the middle of it. in it, I need to be able to run user-submitted code. arbitrary user-submitted code.
00:52:30 <imode> this code needs to be sandboxed. so, I turn to "popular" tools. node.js springs to mind. seems alright enough. I have a couple of things like a job queue, an SQL ORM, websocket support...
00:52:58 <imode> I'm at a crossroads between two options. do I use something like a Forth, or PostScript. or do I use sandboxed JavaScript.
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00:53:48 <imode> I figured I'd first ask the esolangs channel because, why not. esolangs are kind of at the opposite end of the UX spectrum.
00:54:25 <FreeFull> imode: I'd do some sort of language-independent sandboxing instead
00:55:00 <imode> FreeFull: I'd take that route too. but there's a lot of variables associated with that.
00:55:01 <FreeFull> Actually, no, language-independent wouldn't be enough
00:55:27 <imode> bear in mind. user code runs per-command.
00:55:46 <imode> no good way to do memory limits.
00:55:55 <imode> or CPU time measurements.
00:56:18 <imode> imagine 10k+ users, all frothing at the chance to knock your machines out of memory.
00:57:54 <imode> it's essentially a choice between creating a slightly user-hostile environment, sacrificing user experience for simplicity and control, vs. using V8 isolates via an npm package called `isolated-vm`.
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01:03:27 <FreeFull> I'd go for something where there's a separate sandboxed process, and some sort of API to communicate with the main server process
01:08:32 <imode> I guess I'm also discounting what people did for the DCPU-16 or whatever that was.
01:09:17 <imode> for a game that never even released.
01:13:46 <FreeFull> You could have an entire virtual machine with its own instruction set, but that's definitely a bit overkill
01:14:20 <imode> I already have some prior work that does this.
01:15:15 <imode> which is why I'm torn. it brings up questions as to why JavaScript grew to be so popular, and whether an application's extensability mechanism will be used in spite of its current popularity.
01:20:38 <zzo38> Be careful if using the sandboxing in Node.js; use Object.create(null) to create the sandbox object, and don't put in any objects that come from outside of the sandbox.
01:20:53 <imode> I'd be using https://github.com/laverdet/isolated-vm
01:21:00 <FreeFull> Javascript is popular because it's pretty much only programming language all popular web browsers support
01:21:48 <zzo38> However, PostScript might work (in -dSAFER mode, which is now the default; you can also use writable systemdict to delete some entries that you don't want before locking it; for example, you probably don't need any of the graphics operations or device operations), and making your own variant of Forth could also work.
01:22:15 <zzo38> You could also use other implementations of JavaScript, and write your own interface to it.
01:22:59 <zzo38> There are many other possibilities too.
01:23:18 <imode> FreeFull: right. so it's popular based on the strength of its userbase, because its userbase is derived from people that use a web browser, and people that want to create things that fit in a web browser.
01:23:44 <zzo38> But in order to do memory limits and CPU time limits, you would do something else, such as setrlimit.
01:24:32 <zzo38> There is also, as mentioned, Lua, and also SQL, even. And actually there are many other possibilities too.
01:27:37 <imode> which possibilities will people actually tolerate, is the question.
01:28:20 <zzo38> I think different people may tolerate different things, perhaps.
01:28:57 <imode> I don't think my users want to do stack juggling in their heads.
01:29:20 <zzo38> Something that other programming languages can be compiled to might be helpful, maybe.
01:29:32 <imode> I was looking into WASM, but it's very immature.
01:32:00 <zzo38> I might use a VM such as Glulx, although as far as I know none of the other programming languages listed can be compiled as Glulx code (and you may need your own I/O system too; this is possible if needed)
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02:51:22 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck.NET]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70714&oldid=61456 * IFcoltransG * (+82) Some categories
02:52:39 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck Contest]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70715&oldid=56236 * IFcoltransG * (+37) Added category (even though it doesn't exist)
02:53:29 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck Contest 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70716&oldid=68696 * IFcoltransG * (+38) Added a nonexistent category
02:54:47 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck Contest 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70717&oldid=56237 * IFcoltransG * (+37) Added a category that as yet doesn't exist
02:57:12 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck Sharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70718&oldid=49987 * IFcoltransG * (+18) Even though the language is gone, a date category is still helpful for the sake of history
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03:02:17 <zzo38> Does the FOR command in Pascal have something like the STEP in BASIC?
03:05:10 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck derivatives with nontrivial computational class proofs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70720&oldid=58333 * IFcoltransG * (+20) Added Proofs category
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03:30:47 <esowiki> [[User:IFcoltransG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70726&oldid=70005 * IFcoltransG * (+116) Added Aperture lang
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03:47:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: look that up in http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Loops/For_with_a_specified_step
03:52:07 <zzo38> OK, they say it doesn't have it
03:53:45 <esowiki> [[Armok]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70728&oldid=61332 * IFcoltransG * (+69) Added some categories
03:54:05 <esowiki> [[Armok]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70729&oldid=70728 * IFcoltransG * (-2) What is up with my spelling today?
03:57:15 <esowiki> [[Cactusi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70730&oldid=68799 * IFcoltransG * (+43) Added categories
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06:19:48 <kspalaiologos> @tell ais523 the algorithm is instant. the BXn one I haven't published isn't.
06:22:29 <kspalaiologos> @ais532 the state size makes the generator maybe go a bit faster, and allows some room for vectorization.
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06:45:31 <kspalaiologos> @tell ais532 the state size makes the generator maybe go a bit faster, and allows some room for vectorization.
06:47:57 <zzo38> Do you have a guess when pokemon numbers will exceed three digits and when pokemon numbers will exceed sixteen bits?
07:41:54 <kspalaiologos> if you're asking me => I don't know anything about pokemon(s)
07:59:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: exceed three digits => probably when the first pair of generation 9 pokemon games are released, in 2 or 3 years. sixteen bits => never, the video game franchise won't last that long.
08:02:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: however, it's possible that the National Pokedex numbering scheme will be abandonned some day, so there will be pokemon with no clear number in it. there are already variant pokemons with no separate numeric indexes.
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08:17:50 <myname> well, assuming they are using unsigned 16 bit and they will introduce 200 pokemon each year, it will happen 323 years after exceeding three digits
08:18:01 <myname> i would also expect that to be unlikely
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08:24:33 <int-e> . o O ( s/introduce/release/ )
08:30:00 <int-e> You do have to capture them, don't you?
08:34:07 <kspalaiologos> #esoteric -> welcome to the world of pokemon & mtg fans, mathematicans and crazy harp tuners
08:34:32 <kspalaiologos> every single of these topics is something I don't understand :p
08:34:34 <arseniiv> someone maybe have to but I’m not interested, let them go forth and multip… er, live in peace
08:34:56 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: crazy harp tuners?
08:35:10 <int-e> arseniiv: forth is another big mystery to me ;)
08:35:14 <HackEso> ?q? No such file or directory
08:35:18 <HackEso> 1280) <ais523> hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps
08:35:48 <int-e> kspalaiologos: you forgot the punsters
08:36:44 <arseniiv> int-e: erm I retcon I actually meant “go fourth”, in light of harp tuning it makes more sense. Then they may go fifth and maybe a seventh and them bam microtonality and mass extinction
08:38:10 <kspalaiologos> <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: int-e killed it so that you don't spam the channel :-)
08:38:51 <int-e> arseniiv: The fourth, the fifth, the minor fall, the major lift, the baffled king composing hallelujah?
08:39:20 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: ais523 is the harp tuner, the crazy are some other ones of us #esoteric members
08:39:50 <HackEso> Alice doesn't want to go among mad people.
08:39:53 <arseniiv> int-e: oh, I actually didn’t know the lyrics so this is a coincidence
08:40:32 <arseniiv> though also there are far too many songs about songwriting
08:40:55 <arseniiv> like, are there that much paintings about painting?
08:41:07 <int-e> I only know this one because of Shrek.
08:41:40 <kspalaiologos> arseniiv, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Paintings_about_painting
08:41:54 <b_jonas> arseniiv: there are paintings about collecting paintings
08:42:03 <int-e> arseniiv: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drawing_Hands
08:42:09 <b_jonas> basically reader's digest paintings, so that kings can show their rich painting collection to other people
08:42:34 <b_jonas> I don't know many sculptures of sculpting
08:43:34 <int-e> movies about movies
08:43:44 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> the crazy are some other ones of us => is that property decidable?
08:43:45 <int-e> tv shows about television
08:44:09 <int-e> articles about journalism
08:44:25 <int-e> observations about observations
08:44:36 <int-e> where does it stop?
08:45:04 <int-e> human culture is too obsessed with itself ;)
08:45:24 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: the parliament building has a bunch of small statues decorating the top of indoor columns, each depicting a different profession. they're pretty nice, but there's a surprising lack of photos of them on the internet, so I don't recall whether there's a sculptor. I think there's a painter.
08:49:42 <kspalaiologos> is there a resource on binary lambda calculus that will explain it to me like I'm five?
08:50:27 <arseniiv> <int-e> where does it stop? => that’s precisely the question
08:51:32 <arseniiv> five is 101, so yes, no and yes^W^W^W^W^W^W^W^W
08:51:50 <kspalaiologos> alright so from what I can understand, one can simply create a lambda and execute it on a certain bit
08:52:07 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: maybe the missing part is de Bruijn indices which are used there
08:52:19 <int-e> But 5 is 0000011100111001110011100111010 ;)
08:52:22 <kspalaiologos> and 1x0 construct lets you grab nth in the depth parameter?
08:53:00 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: one can simply create a lambda and execute it on a certain bit => ah, not quite that. This is just plain lambda calculus, just expressed via bit strings
08:53:12 <int-e> kspalaiologos: Yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Bruijn_index may help.
08:53:26 <kspalaiologos> why on this image attached 2 is reffering to the first lambda
08:54:16 <int-e> kspalaiologos: it skips the green one; the blue and orange lambdas aren't in scope, so the red one is next
08:54:22 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: sculptures of sculpture, see https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Sculptures_of_sculptors ; https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Carpeaux_au_travail is a good example, it shows a human holding a statuette and a tool in hands
08:54:22 <arseniiv> (okay I’ll go eat something already)
08:54:49 <int-e> kspalaiologos: this may make more sense if you draw the term as a tree
08:54:52 <b_jonas> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Monument_%C3%A0_Emmanuel_Fr%C3%A9miet_by_Henri_Greber_(1913) might be an even better example
08:55:28 <kspalaiologos> I wonder how much did it take to squeeze a brainfuck interpreter into this
08:55:41 <int-e> kspalaiologos: (a tree where lambdas have one child, and applications have two children... then you can resolve the indices by walking up the tree)
08:57:18 <int-e> you pass in a (lazy) list of bits (or bytes) and produce a similar list of outputs as a result
08:57:20 <arseniiv> also it may be clearer if trying to write some functions on those terms, like substitution or something
08:58:02 <kspalaiologos> from what I can see, this language seems to have the same problem of O(n) complexity when storing constants
08:58:17 <int-e> So fundamentally you'll have to understand how data is encoded... that will probably take a while to become fluent with.
08:59:21 <int-e> kspalaiologos: It's only that big because it's the full Church numeral (\f\x. f (f (f (f (f x)))))
09:00:09 <kspalaiologos> (Outputting much more than 300 bits in Perl will land your computer in swap hell.) => lmao
09:01:22 <int-e> Asymptotically the program size doesn't matter... at a few hundred bits you can write decoders for much more efficient data formats.
09:02:13 <int-e> hmm. I suppose golfed blc code doesn't tend to be very friendly to garbage collection.
09:03:55 <int-e> Oh primes. The underlying algorithm uses a quadratic amount of memory I think (and the constant factor isn't small either).
09:04:10 <tromp> kspalaiologos: try reading https://tromp.github.io/cl/Binary_lambda_calculus.html
09:06:07 <int-e> The quadratic memory usage is a result of golfing; the constant factor could be improved by a better VM I suppose.
09:07:20 <tromp> int-e: i still need to fix the proof of the W2 rule. It's not true that B^V has (W^V)^+ W^V in head position
09:08:32 <tromp> the other observations still hold
09:09:07 <tromp> it would suffice to show that W^V is strict
09:09:55 <int-e> tromp: I'll take your word for it (still mulling over the problem myself)
09:10:08 <int-e> (so haven't looked at what your proposed generalization is)
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10:23:11 <tromp> int-e: see latest commit for proof fix and added conjecture on which proof rests
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12:49:37 <ais523> <lambdabot> mroman asked 5y 11m 9d 17h 22m 55s ago: can you do a "programming languages with no Hello world" list? ← I wonder if mroman is still interested in this
12:50:00 <ais523> if my nick had been correctly spelled the first time, there wouldn't have been the ~6-year wait
12:50:56 <ais523> <zzo38> Do you have a guess when pokemon numbers will exceed three digits and when pokemon numbers will exceed sixteen bits? ← there's a lot of evidence that Game Freak is planning to abandon the National Pokédex numbering scheme, so it's likely that the numbering scheme will change before either of those benchmarks are reached
12:53:32 <ais523> @tell mroman I think most esolangs don't have a hello world, in many cases because they aren't capable of producing text output; making a list of esolangs which can hello world but don't have one would likely have to be done manually and be very time consuming
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14:06:16 <Taneb> Petition to start calling categories monoidoid (by analogy with semigroupoid, groupoid)
14:23:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * EvoEvoEvoEvoLution * New user account
14:38:46 <esowiki> [[Neg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70733&oldid=65727 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Superpositions */ fix typo
14:45:27 <rain1> how are you doing?
14:46:03 <esowiki> [[Eso2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70734&oldid=70371 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+76) /* Truth-machine */
14:46:21 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70735&oldid=70386 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+67) /* Eso2D */ Added Eso2D
14:47:17 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70736&oldid=70735 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-6) /* XENBLN */ Updating
14:51:12 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70737&oldid=70736 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+115) /* DINAC */
14:52:28 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70738&oldid=70737 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Implementations */
15:04:17 <esowiki> [[PlusOrMinus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70739&oldid=69838 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) /* Resources */
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15:30:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Css Script]] to [[Css script]]: fix capitalization
15:32:46 <esowiki> [[Css script]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70746&oldid=70744 * LegionMammal978 * (-19) formatting
15:40:47 <esowiki> [[Cubically]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70747&oldid=52173 * LegionMammal978 * (+87) added repo link
16:05:12 <esowiki> [[D1ffe7e45e]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70748&oldid=62325 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
16:07:17 <ais523> the css script website appears to be a dead link already
16:07:33 <ais523> although the repo is up
16:09:00 <ais523> it appears to be a primitive-recursive language with a large number of primitives for graphical output
16:09:08 <ais523> I'm not sure what relationship it has to CSS
16:10:14 <ais523> ah no, I think it supports recursion, which would make it TC given bignums
16:10:20 <ais523> (e.g. you can implement Blindfolded Arithmetic)
16:11:11 <ais523> I don't think it has any conditionals and I'm not convinced that the arithmetic allows two variables as arguments
16:14:40 <ais523> OK, looking at the implementation, does seem to allow two variables, so yes, you can do Blindfolder Arithmetic
16:14:59 <ais523> and the relationship to CSS appears to be that the implementation's output is in CSS
16:16:07 <ais523> although, the output is hardcoded to go into the file C:/Users/Dell/Desktop/entry/git/css-script-candy/css_script/output.html, which strikes me as a fairly awkward API
16:16:46 <ais523> also the output appears to actually be HTML+CSS, not pure CSS
16:19:37 <ais523> that's a little disappointing, I was secretly hoping it would be CSS with a .html extension
16:22:42 <b_jonas> ais523: but doesn't the division operator do floating point division?
16:22:48 <b_jonas> also doesn't it use floating point numbers?
16:23:21 <b_jonas> if it's fixed size machine floats, then you can't do too much blindfolded arithmetic
16:25:14 <ais523> I bet you could do something using floating-point errors
16:25:14 <b_jonas> hmm no, it is floor division, but it's still machine floating point
16:25:22 <ais523> if it really were float division)
16:25:32 <ais523> although it would still be sub-TC due to the floats only having finitely many values
16:25:52 <ais523> but Python has arbitrary-precision integers
16:26:02 <ais523> I'm not sure what happens if you add one of those to the floored result of a division
16:26:43 <b_jonas> python has arbitrary precision integers, but this impl doesn't do arithmetic on those
16:27:09 <b_jonas> https://github.com/Abdur-rahmaanJ/css-script/blob/master/css_script/main.py#L322
16:27:29 <b_jonas> float is the built-in floating point type, which uses 64-bit machine floats
16:27:53 <b_jonas> unless of course there's some trick elsewhere in that code
16:28:06 <ais523> it appears to use isdigit() to parse constants
16:29:18 <ais523> so constants are any strings consisting entirely of digits
16:29:44 <ais523> I think variables will be stored as Python integers throughout
16:30:02 <ais523> unless rand/sine/cos/abssine are used
16:30:20 <b_jonas> was probably posted today to the wiki because it has a function called passover: https://github.com/Abdur-rahmaanJ/css-script/blob/master/css_script/main.py#L351
16:30:34 <ais523> if you assign a constant to a variable the value seems to be stored as a string (?)
16:31:07 <ais523> it uses floats to do arithmetic, even though it uses ints to store the result of transcendental operations, and strings to store constants
16:32:06 <ais523> so yes, sub-TC because each program can only have finitely many variables
16:32:19 <b_jonas> ais523: no, it uses int to store the input of the transcendental constants, and yes that's weird
16:32:25 <ais523> err, ints are for the /argument/ to the transcendental operation
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16:32:47 <ais523> I cannot refute the hypothesis that types in this language were just picked at random until it appeared to work
16:33:32 <b_jonas> that said this seems ot be the sort of interpreter where the author just adds the features they need at the time, and they may edit more features into it later as they want to write more programs, so it might just eventually grow more powerful by the time
16:34:24 <ais523> maybe they'll even get the domain name they want!
16:36:30 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, they claim to be a web developer
16:37:20 <b_jonas> although they also claim to do "IoT" and "Machine learning" and "Desktop development" so it might just be a fashionable keyword for the cv
16:37:39 <ais523> I think they're a web developer, just probably not a very good one
16:41:44 <b_jonas> also has an introductory programming book at https://github.com/Abdur-rahmaanJ/Think-Python-Fr/blob/master/all_in_one.md , let me see if that has code that looks better
16:46:57 <ais523> the main issue I note is that the indentation is wrong
16:47:04 <ais523> which, considering that this is Python, is something of an issue
16:47:21 <ais523> not always, but sometimes
16:49:04 <ais523> it's a translation of a book by someone else
16:49:15 <ais523> "traduction du livre: Think Python, How To Think Like A Computer Scientist d'Allan Downey"
16:49:33 <ais523> and apparently unfinished, because the formatting goes crazy towards the end
16:51:30 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, the indentation of some code got lost somewhere in the conversions
16:53:13 <b_jonas> yes, probably because it's in progress
16:54:11 <ais523> this helps confirm my belief that indentation-sensitivity is too fragile for a serious programming language
16:54:19 <ais523> because code may be conveyed in formats that don't retain indentation well
16:56:35 <ais523> <HTML> Collect a sequence of code points that are ASCII digits from input given position, and interpret the resulting sequence as a base-ten integer.
16:56:50 <ais523> it goes to a huge amount of trouble to specify everything in great detail, but forgets to specify the endianness here
16:56:56 <ais523> I wonder if I should submit a bug report
16:57:38 <ais523> also, apparently -0 is a valid nonnegative integer in HTML, which is interesting as nonnegative integers are defined with a different parser from integers
16:58:13 <ais523> the parser for nonnegative integers will accept it, but you aren't allowed to include a minus sign in the input
16:58:18 <b_jonas> the first 9 chapters are formatted correctly and the code indentation looks fine in them
16:58:21 <ais523> err, a hyphen-minus sign
16:59:13 <ais523> heh, the endianness of the fractional part of a float /is/ specified, even though the endianness of the integer part isn't
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17:01:24 <b_jonas> ais523: where is that from?
17:02:51 <ais523> I'm reading the HTML standard
17:03:04 <ais523> probably I won't get through the whole thing
17:03:09 <ais523> the specific page is https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/common-microsyntaxes.html
17:04:14 <esowiki> [[Hello today I am a unicorn]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70749 * Hakerh400 * (+2592) +[[Hello today I am a unicorn]]
17:04:17 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70750&oldid=70609 * Hakerh400 * (+33) +[[Hello today I am a unicorn]]
17:04:21 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70751&oldid=70591 * Hakerh400 * (+33) +[[Hello today I am a unicorn]]
17:13:48 <esowiki> [[Hello today I am a unicorn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70752&oldid=70749 * Ais523 * (+524) explain why this is TC; remove reference list because there aren't any
17:22:15 <esowiki> [[The Great Spell]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70753&oldid=69567 * Qwertyu63 * (-1)
17:23:17 <esowiki> [[The Great Spell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70754&oldid=70753 * Qwertyu63 * (+71)
17:25:00 <esowiki> [[Hello today I am a unicorn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70755&oldid=70752 * Hakerh400 * (+1) fix typo
17:27:11 <esowiki> [[The Great Spell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70756&oldid=70754 * Qwertyu63 * (+17)
17:29:07 <esowiki> [[PokBattle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70757&oldid=49066 * Qwertyu63 * (+43) /* Syntax */
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17:30:15 <esowiki> [[PokBattle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70758&oldid=70757 * Qwertyu63 * (+29) /* Commands/Moves */
17:31:20 <esowiki> [[PokBattle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70759&oldid=70758 * Qwertyu63 * (+75) /* Pokemon */
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17:40:46 <arseniiv> <Taneb> Petition to start calling categories monoidoid (by analogy with semigroupoid, groupoid) => yesss
17:52:02 <arseniiv> no big secret we can do some calculations with affine geometry, dipping an affine space into a one-more-dimensional linear space and treating vectors from this (now) subspace as points and vectors parallel to it as point translation vectors. Introducing exterior algebra, one can even join two points into a line with using plain exterior product ∧ on them. But one can’t join two coplanar lines this way, as they would wedge to zero, b
17:52:02 <arseniiv> eing factorizable as a∧b and a∧c for some a, b, c. This boils down to the question, how can I calculate the union of two subspaces in an arbitrary linear space, using exterior algebra elements as representations of subspaces?
17:53:08 <arseniiv> (and also intersections, but we can just dualize a working way to do union after finding it)
17:55:09 <arseniiv> I read a bit things about “geometric algebra”, which is just an applied real Clifford algebra theory, and I hadn’t found a description of this failure to do meet. They seem to simply take ∧ and I can’t believe no one needed to compute a union of the sort I mentioned
18:05:47 <esowiki> [[DOGO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70760&oldid=30155 * LegionMammal978 * (+29) /* External resources */ fixed link
18:20:30 <HackEso> ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc
18:21:10 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70761&oldid=70572 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+121) /* Languages */
18:23:36 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70762&oldid=70761 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+102) /* Possibly useful regexes */
18:28:50 <esowiki> [[Function x(y)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70763&oldid=70711 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) /* FizzBuzz */ Fixed some errors
18:35:36 <esowiki> [[Function x(y)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70764&oldid=70763 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+287)
18:36:30 <esowiki> [[Function x(y)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70765&oldid=70764 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* FizzBuzz */
18:39:30 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70766&oldid=69631 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* MineFriff */ Fixing link to ><> and brainf
18:50:09 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/How to write quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70767&oldid=69424 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Initial draft */ typo fixed
19:07:31 <arseniiv> <arseniiv> this is suspicious => ah now I at least see why those linear meet and join need to evaluate to zero in the unfortunate cases. If the orientation of the result cannot be determined uniquely from orientations of the arguments, then zero is the only sensible option. Maybe I need to find another framework for affine subspace operations, then
19:30:04 <ais523> by analogy with monoidoid and monoid, what is a mon?
19:32:49 <b_jonas> ais523: mon is abbreviation for Monday
19:34:07 <ais523> I don't think that works category-theoretically
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19:39:51 <esowiki> [[PlusOrMinus 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70768&oldid=70743 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+346) /* Auto-formatting */
19:45:19 <esowiki> [[Dc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70769&oldid=55321 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
19:45:49 <Sgeo__> Why did I rekindle my interest in Tcl? It's a ridiculously unsafe language if used wrong, and whenever I write Tcl code I invariably end up with a memory leak because of fundamental limitations to its GC
19:50:04 <esowiki> [[DcScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70770&oldid=69670 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
19:50:23 <imode> because it's incredibly tempting.
19:58:16 <ais523> it looks intruiging but I've never had a sufficiently compelling use case for it to be worth learning it
19:58:24 <ais523> (although, I did learn enough to add it to the polyglot)
20:01:37 <fizzie> I seem to recall Eggdrop was scripted most commonly in Tcl.
20:01:44 <ais523> b_jonas: why the check of ayacc, incidentally?
20:01:46 <zzo38> Some of the building of SQLite and its documentation is using Tcl, I think.
20:01:50 <ais523> I can currently work on it a bit more freely than usual
20:01:53 <ais523> but haven't had a need to
20:04:36 <b_jonas> ais523: someone on IRC mentioned that they made a different custom yacc for some project they need, plus a lexer to go with it
20:04:56 <b_jonas> ais523: http://repo.hu/projects/byaccic/ with a push parser (stackless)
20:05:22 <zzo38> (Although, I think the coding for generating source files should be written in C and/or shell scripts, the coding for documentation generation should be written in PostScript, and the testing codes should be both Tcl and C.)
20:05:29 <b_jonas> also they searched for "ayacc" on google and found a different yacc that generates ada code or some such
20:05:39 <b_jonas> https://github.com/Ada-France/ayacc
20:05:44 <b_jonas> apparently the name is not unique enough
20:06:30 <b_jonas> maybe you should have called it aiyacc
20:07:09 <zzo38> Some things are going to have the same name due to not knowing that is something else called that, I will think, and other reasons too
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20:07:47 <zzo38> Another alternative to yacc is Lemon
20:08:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: we did look at that, but we agreed with ais523 that we don't like its interface
20:08:30 <ais523> I have been planning a more radical parser framework of my own, separate from ayacc (which exists to run pre-existing yacc programs)
20:08:53 <b_jonas> oh no... not a framework. I hate frameworks
20:09:03 <b_jonas> those are always the worst software to actually work with
20:09:04 <ais523> well, not a framework in /that/ sense, probably at least
20:09:13 <ais523> the basic idea is to combine the parse and lex phases via allowing the use of a state machine (effectively a regular expression) to do lookahead
20:09:51 <zzo38> Yes, if you do not like Lemon, then you do not have to use it, although I like the features of Lemon (although the documentation for Lemon now says that apparently Bison also has some of these features too, so it will work too).
20:09:52 <ais523> this means that if the grammar requires unlimited lookahead to function correctly (which it will in many cases), you will still need two passes over the input, although this time the first one goes backwards and the second one goes forwards
20:10:06 <ais523> zzo38: which specific features do you like?
20:10:39 <ais523> the other basic idea is, instead of running user-supplied code to split the input into data structures, to use optimized general-purpose data structures that are more efficient than linked trees
20:11:07 <ais523> although this means they can't be changed in-place, rather code that manipulates them works by treewalking an existing tree and creating a new tree as it does so
20:11:28 <ais523> the idea is to take advantage of vectorisation and memory locality
20:11:41 <zzo38> That you can have multiple parsers.
20:11:59 <zzo38> The tokenizer calling the parser is also useful for some programs.
20:12:24 <ais523> multiple parsers are trivial to implement even in yacc
20:12:35 <ais523> by adding an extra token at the start to choose between them
20:12:41 <ais523> although ayacc allows a more direct API for that
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20:13:39 <zzo38> The %fallback command is also useful for some programs, such as SQLite, and so are some of the other commands.
20:17:14 <zzo38> ais523: O, OK. I should look at the ayacc, although it is just a 403 error apparently because it requires darcs to work (although maybe 406 is better, or perhaps is better for it to download the files anyways, such as in a tape archive)
20:20:41 <ais523> zzo38: I can try to create a tarball for you, give me a moment
20:21:54 <ais523> zzo38: try http://nethack4.org/pastebin/ayacc-2020-04.tar.gz
20:22:21 <ais523> although, it will unpack into a folder called "mainline"
20:22:27 <ais523> it's actually ayacc though
20:23:26 <zzo38> OK, I downloaded that.
20:23:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: fun, that's what everyone complains about. I just pasted it temporarily to https://dpaste.org/qorS/raw though.
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20:24:27 <HackEso> ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc
20:24:45 <b_jonas> `learn ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from http://nethack4.org/pastebin/ayacc-2020-04.tar.gz or from darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc
20:24:48 <HackEso> Relearned 'ayacc': ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from http://nethack4.org/pastebin/ayacc-2020-04.tar.gz or from darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc
20:24:59 <HackEso> unless essential for the entry‘s humor, \ they should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
20:25:28 <b_jonas> `learn ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from http://nethack4.org/pastebin/ayacc-2020-04.tar.gz or from (darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc) .
20:25:30 <HackEso> Relearned 'ayacc': ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from http://nethack4.org/pastebin/ayacc-2020-04.tar.gz or from (darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc) .
20:25:38 <ais523> b_jonas: the pastebin thing is only temporary, I think
20:25:40 <b_jonas> is that the proper punctuation? or do I double-quote the first url?
20:25:41 <ais523> because it won't automatically update
20:25:45 <zzo38> You should fix the error message so that it tells you to use darcs or to download the .tar.gz file.
20:25:49 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, I said I temporarily pasted it there
20:26:03 <ais523> b_jonas: no, I mean the NH4 pastebin
20:26:12 <ais523> also, I believe the proper quotes for a URL are <>
20:26:24 <b_jonas> ais523: no, it's either double quotes or angle brackets, and I prefer double quotes
20:26:26 <ais523> I'm not sure on the proper quotes for a shell command, but I like «» because anything else seems potentially ambiguous
20:26:39 <b_jonas> I use parens for a shell command because that's actual shell syntax
20:27:11 <b_jonas> `learn ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from (darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc) or a snapshot from "http://nethack4.org/pastebin/ayacc-2020-04.tar.gz".
20:27:14 <HackEso> Relearned 'ayacc': ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from (darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc) or a snapshot from "http://nethack4.org/pastebin/ayacc-2020-04.tar.gz".
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20:28:19 <ais523> oh, parens are plausible, they'd be no-ops in most circumstances
20:28:32 <ais523> although not in cases where the command would run differently in a subshell
20:28:44 <ais523> there's a difference between «cd /tmp» and «(cd /tmp)»
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20:39:17 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm not sure it even makes sense to embed a shell command that doesn't run in a subshell into non-shell text. is there a shared library version of the shell that can run in other processes to do that?
20:41:32 <ais523> b_jonas: you clearly haven't come across /bin/cd yet
20:41:49 <ais523> although admittedly that one was a joke
20:42:00 <b_jonas> you can embed perl or python that way and call their chdir functions and it affects the whole process
20:42:13 <ais523> although, if you're giving someone instructions
20:42:23 <ais523> it makes sense to intersperse shell commands and text, doesn't it?
20:43:09 <b_jonas> maybe someone made a literate shell syntax somewhere, where every line not prefixed with a > is a comment that is used only when you typeset the program
20:43:32 <b_jonas> but the embeddable shell library sounds more esoteric
20:45:01 <ais523> why do languages have their own literate syntaxes, anyway?
20:45:20 <ais523> wouldn't it be more sensible to have a document format designed for literal programming, that can compile into a programming language?
20:45:26 <ais523> but it doesn't care about which one you're using
20:46:01 <b_jonas> ais523: there is such a generic preprocessor I think, but the problem is that a lot of languages use most ascii characters, so there's no single quote format that's convenient for everything
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20:47:01 <ais523> well, prefixing lines with > is pretty convenient for everything
20:47:36 <ais523> that can't possibly clash with anything in the program, the only potential clashes would be with the /document/
20:47:50 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, but then you want to refer to code snippets in the documentation part, and that's what gets ugly in them, as well as in all the javadoc/doxygen syntaxes too
20:48:10 <ais523> you mean, without them running?
20:48:12 <b_jonas> also some preprocessors allow you to change some or all of the magic characters, see https://esolangs.org/wiki/SIMPLE_(preprocessor)
20:48:31 <ais523> that seems to contradict the idea of literate programming a little
20:48:36 <b_jonas> ais523: usually yes, but I think CWEB even has some preprocessor macro thing that it can insert into code blocks or something
20:48:50 <ais523> incidentally, I realised that POD is a sort of mix between literate and illiterate programming
20:48:57 <b_jonas> I don't really know how this works, I don't really like literate programming so I never use it
20:48:58 <ais523> instead of having a comment marker for non-code, or a code marker for code
20:49:12 <b_jonas> having comment blocks and comment headers, doxygen-like, that's fine
20:49:12 <ais523> it has separators that are placed between code and non-code (and vice versa)
20:49:25 <b_jonas> and having a preprocessor can be interesting too
20:49:39 <arseniiv> ah, as the topic was about parsing a while back, how often do you encounter regex libraries supporting streams of arbitrary objects and not just characters? and maybe regexes for tree-like structures, do those exist at all?
20:50:25 <ais523> the former definitely should exist, but maybe doesn't
20:50:38 <ais523> what properties do these arbitrary objects have that distinguishes them from characters?
20:50:40 <b_jonas> I was actually thinking of a preprocessor variant of Consumer Society too. It needs three magic characters, but you can't find three convenient characters that work in all programming languages, so you'd use eg. `@$ in C but `?$ in python or something
20:51:25 <zzo38> CWEB also has the commands to specify if the next section is a named program block, unnamed program block, or documentation; you don't need any prefix for each line. WEB does more preprocessing though, in order to implement things that Pascal doesn't do by itself (although some modern implementations will do those things automatically).
20:51:27 <b_jonas> arseniiv: there are regex libraries that support arbitrary byte streams
20:51:38 <ais523> isn't @ unused in Rust at the moment?
20:51:48 <b_jonas> ais523: @ is used for bind patterns like in haskell
20:51:51 <arseniiv> also do you like parser combinators receiving arbitrary tokens and not just characters, and how much useful do you think is parser-driven tokenization (when the source can be tokenized differently based on what parser expects)
20:52:33 <ais523> arseniiv: parser-driven tokenization is required for some languages, if you want to have a separate parser and lexer
20:52:43 <ais523> but I think combining the parser and lexer is a more interesting goal
20:52:45 <b_jonas> ais523: as in if let x@C(y,z) = t { # matches if t has the constructor C, and binds fresh variables x, y, z
20:53:01 <b_jonas> $ is used for metaprogramming though, also like in haskell
20:53:17 <ais523> parser-driven tokenization is really confusing, though, so it's normally avoided where it isn't required
20:53:28 <arseniiv> b_jonas: Python has byte stream regexes too, though there’s a strange issue with named group names (non-ASCII names allowed for some reason)
20:53:40 <zzo38> I think PCRE supports byte streams (it can also use UTF-8 though).
20:53:42 <ais523> an example of where it's used in practice is parsing precedence overrides in C-INTERCAL
20:54:26 <b_jonas> SIMPLE allows you to override each of its magic characters, but that doesn't help you too much if you want convenient syntax, because it has like a dozen magic characters
20:54:40 <arseniiv> <ais523> parser-driven tokenization is really confusing, though, so it's normally avoided where it isn't required => I was afraid that would be the case, and that’s why it came to mind to ask, yeah
20:54:41 <b_jonas> it's also hard to use for other reasons
20:55:18 <ais523> arseniiv: it's worth mentioning that INTERCAL's grammar is actually ambiguous
20:55:29 <b_jonas> I wish I could definitely claim that it's esoteric, but there is a little evidence that David wrote it to preprocess some HTML files that are non-esoteric originally, so it's not pure esoteric in purpose
20:55:33 <ais523> the INTERCAL-72 manual has a note which basically just says "don't write programs that do that, it probably won't work"
20:56:30 <ais523> and there are some programs which are technically unambiguous but need infinite lookahead to sort the "ambiguity" out, so C-INTERCAL can pick the wrong parse earlier on
20:56:48 <ais523> (the manual gives it explicit permission to do that, though, probably because the original implementation had the same problem!)
20:56:53 <b_jonas> ais523: well, INTERCAL was created when ambiguous FORTRAN was one of the most used programming languages, so it makes sense that it takes _that_ feature from it
20:57:10 <ais523> what's the ambiguity in FORTRAN?
20:57:26 <b_jonas> ais523: I think it's not actually ambiguous, just requires too much lookahead
20:57:52 <arseniiv> <ais523> what properties do these arbitrary objects have that distinguishes them from characters? => for example they can be a countable set, but nonetheless with several known subsets and constants to use in matching. Though that still can be encoded via byte sequences, yeah
20:57:55 <b_jonas> something like in basic where it doesn't require whitespace, so DOFOO=2 is an assignment, DO FOO=2,3 is a loop head, but the space doesn't matter
20:58:02 <b_jonas> and the 2 can be a complicated expression
20:58:26 <b_jonas> just like A XOR 1 vs AX OR 1 in some old basic interpreters
20:58:28 <ais523> I'm not used to FORTRAN program using multiple-character variable names :-D
20:58:41 <b_jonas> ais523: what, they can have variable names up to 6 characters
20:58:46 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, there's an ambiguity like that in INTERCAL too!
20:58:48 <b_jonas> that's much better than basic, with its 2 characters
20:58:59 <ais523> DO READ OUT #1 versus DO REA DO UT #1
20:59:21 <ais523> that one caught out a few lesser-known INTERCAL interpreters when people started golfing
20:59:22 <zzo38> Can you put parentheses to resolve the ambiguity?
20:59:37 <ais523> zzo38: INTERCAL doesn't use parentheses as precedence overrides
20:59:40 <zzo38> At least some BASIC programs I have seen they only use one letter for variable names, sometimes followed by digits too
20:59:46 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, I mean in BASIC
20:59:55 <ais523> however it has two different precedence override syntaxes and you can always solve an ambiguity caused by one by using the other instead
20:59:58 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, how is that disambiguated?
21:00:11 <ais523> b_jonas: it isn't but syntax errors are legal in INTERCAL
21:00:13 <b_jonas> does that work only when the statement is only ran when ignored?
21:00:43 <ais523> I think all current interpreters arbitrarily ignore the DO in DO READOUT, at least if the statement is otherwise syntactically valid
21:00:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, one letter is shorter
21:00:53 <ais523> it's unclear whether this is the correct course of action or not
21:01:02 <ais523> but it's INTERCAL, the spec is not exactly the most unambiguous of things
21:01:32 <ais523> incidentally, at least one INTERCAL programmer has seriously argued that spaces should be permitted inside keywords and even inside numerical constants and variable names
21:01:41 <ais523> but that isn't widely implemented
21:01:47 <arseniiv> <ais523> however it has two different precedence override syntaxes and you can always solve an ambiguity caused by one by using the other instead => esoteric
21:02:24 <ais523> arseniiv: Google's style guide suggests alternating between them to a) avoid any risk of an ambiguity that confuses the compiler, b) make it easier to read for a human
21:02:38 <b_jonas> ais523: are they storing INTERCAL programs on 5-bit ticker tape?
21:03:08 <arseniiv> ais523: wait, there’s a Google style guide for INTERCAL? :o
21:03:10 <b_jonas> or transfer it by 5-bit modem?
21:03:15 <ais523> in fact there's no real evidence that Google has written any more than one INTERCAL program
21:03:22 <ais523> arseniiv: it was part of their April Fools thing one year
21:03:47 <Sgeo__> Tcl's return is... complicated.
21:03:57 <arseniiv> ais523: that’s probably neat :F
21:04:13 <ais523> it's offline nowadays, and the Internet Archive is down
21:04:19 <ais523> I have a saved local copy but will need to check the license before rehosting it
21:04:38 <arseniiv> don’t worry, the sole existence of it is enough for me :)
21:05:09 <arseniiv> I don’t know enough INTERCAL to appreciate the style guide sufficiently
21:05:23 <ais523> the funny thing is, their INTERCAL program had a bug (or at least a nonportability)
21:05:30 <ais523> I sent them a pull request and they gave me commit access
21:05:39 <ais523> the repo ceased to exist shortly afterwards, when they closed the repo host
21:05:50 <ais523> so I was probably the only person outside Google to ever have commit access to it
21:06:31 <ais523> ugh, no explicit license on the repo :-(
21:06:35 <ais523> so I guess it's default-all-rights-reserved
21:06:48 <arseniiv> <ais523> so I was probably the only person outside Google to ever have commit access to it => hehe
21:07:54 <arseniiv> oh, btw if someone uses Freesound.org, they had an anniversary a couple days ago
21:09:23 <ais523> hmm, I found an archive of the program itself, on a Google host, with an apache2 license on it
21:09:29 <ais523> unfortunately the style guide is not in the same archive
21:10:24 <ais523> thus the license doesn't apply to it
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21:49:11 <esowiki> [[Derpcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70771&oldid=59452 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
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00:37:54 <esowiki> [[MyScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70772&oldid=70448 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) /* Functions */
00:45:16 <esowiki> [[Symbols]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70773&oldid=63960 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) /* Javascript */ fixing varName
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03:56:50 <zzo38> Why does a "cure heart" decrease your health from 121 to 100?
06:32:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70774&oldid=70689 * Luke1337 * (-362) Undo revision 53161 by [[Special:Contributions/Luke1337|Luke1337]] ([[User talk:Luke1337|talk]])
06:40:32 <esowiki> [[Aheui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70775&oldid=60033 * Luke1337 * (-120) This implementation claims to "fix" bugs but diff reveals it actually doesn't; fails test case; incorrect handling of ''; inelegant wraparound handling; outdated etc.
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07:50:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: maybe it drains some of your general or average health to fix a problem specifically in your heart, and you should use that spell only if you have a risk of heart problems and can afford some of the health of the rest of your body, as in your liver?
07:51:41 <b_jonas> It's like many real world medications, they can't magically add health to you, but they can redirect your body to focus to something more in exchange of something else, like in the tradeoff between antibiotics vs antihistamines.
07:53:09 <b_jonas> Antibiotics can kill a bacterial infection, but in exchange you get worse allergies, so if you have both bacterial infections and allergies it's hard to cure, which is one of the big difficulty with organ transplantation.
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08:04:24 <oren> neoletters has been updated with better arabic
08:09:30 <oren> it also now includes two letters from the language "poliespo" invented by a esperantist murderer
08:14:18 <oren> specifically "overstruck p and w" and "overstruck t and v"
08:14:39 <oren> encoded at and respectively
08:29:18 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70776&oldid=63150 * Salpynx * (+104) /* Languages I have created */ Isthmus Cyclicus Crypticus
08:38:58 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70777&oldid=62050 * IFcoltransG * (+292) /* (idea)Introducing SyntaxHighlight? */ Devil's advocate
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10:41:20 <cpressey> For a long time I've held this conjecture: the weakest computational class in which a self-interpreter can be written, is Turing-complete.
10:42:50 <cpressey> This was based on the observation that there is no primite-recursive function which can interpret arbitrary primitive recursive functions, and other examples like that.
10:43:11 <cpressey> But I've known this is just a conjecture, and I'm very interested in counter-examples.
10:43:55 <cpressey> And I think I found one the other day but I haven't looked into it yet.
10:45:26 <cpressey> http://compilers.cs.ucla.edu/popl16/
10:45:51 <cpressey> Which claims to be an interpreter for F_omega, written in F_omega.
10:46:33 <cpressey> Now, I also understand that F_omega is strongly normalizing, which means F_omega programs always terminate, which means F_omega is *not* Turing-complete.
10:48:10 <cpressey> Although what computability class F_omega represents, I don't know. I imagine that it is at least primitive recursive, and probably beyond primitive recursive to some degree. i.e. I would not be surprised if you could write the Ackermann function in F_omega. But again, I don't really know, yet.
10:50:30 <cpressey> I don't know much about F_omega except that it's one corner of the lambda cube. Wikipedia doesn't say much about it other than "From a computing point of view, λω is extremely strong, and has been considered as a basis for programming languages", which I guess would be consistent with this result.
10:51:14 <cpressey> Oh sorry, that's lambda_omega, not F_omega
10:51:31 <cpressey> WP says even less about F_omega.
10:52:18 <cpressey> What the heck is lambda_omega anyway.
10:53:36 <cpressey> Uh, sounds like F_omega and lambda_omega could be the same thing?
10:54:55 <cpressey> I guess I should try to read the papers.
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12:37:17 <cpressey> There is another, much older result related to that conjecture I mentioned earlier, which is this: there's a CFL that's "CFL-complete" in the sense that it's as least as complex to parse it, as it is to parse any other CFL. But I don't know if that counts as "universal" in the same sense as a self-interpreter does. It's certainly similar in some ways though.
12:39:15 <cpressey> Pretty sure that result was by Greibach in the 1970's though I can't find my notes on it atm.
12:47:53 <cpressey> Aha, found it: https://epubs.siam.org/doi/10.1137/0202025
12:50:09 <cpressey> IIRC, the CFG constructed in that paper takes a string and a description of a CFG and accepts iff the given CFG accepts the string.
12:50:43 <cpressey> Which sounds like a "universal CFG" to me.
12:56:18 <HackEso> olist 1199: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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13:20:36 <esowiki> [[EGSHEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70778&oldid=68935 * LegionMammal978 * (-10) fixed link
13:22:17 <tromp> int-e: I think I properly fixed the proof for the generalized W rule, see latest commit
13:38:31 <esowiki> [[ESOPUNK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70779&oldid=58027 * LegionMammal978 * (+2) /* Interpreters */ updated link
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13:45:06 <ais523> <cpressey> For a long time I've held this conjecture: the weakest computational class in which a self-interpreter can be written, is Turing-complete. ← what about "the language where all programs do nothing"? that can self-interpret
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13:45:14 <ais523> and has a very weak computational class
13:45:24 <ais523> I think the question needs to be formulated more precisely, but am not sure how
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13:47:05 <int-e> Nah that's probably just false... there seems nothing in a self-interpreter that makes a language more expressive than it already is.
13:47:16 <int-e> (You can add it as a primitive if all else fails.)
13:47:44 <esowiki> [[ETalk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70780&oldid=13379 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
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13:48:30 <ais523> ah right, "weak language + self-interpreting primitive" makes for another good counterexample
13:49:03 <ais523> I was also going to mention things like Easy but I think that's naturally TC
13:49:16 <ais523> given that it embeds BF
13:51:44 <int-e> I'm not saying it's not an interesting question though. Also the question of what adding self-interpretation does to a model of computation may be interesting, too. For example, it seems that PR (primitive recursion) + interpreter for PR (with a sane encoding for functions that can be manipulated with primitive recursive functions) goes beyond PR (because it escapes the leveling restriction).
13:53:18 <HackEso> olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
13:53:57 <int-e> (Actually, if we call that PR'... PR' is not obviously capable of self-interpretation. I suspect it's not...)
13:55:00 <int-e> kspalaiologos: there's a few of those
13:55:52 <HackEso> Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
13:55:56 <HackEso> Non-update notification for the webcomic Super Mega.
13:56:06 <HackEso> FireFlist* \ aglist* \ bardsworthlist* \ bobadventureslist* \ calesyta2016list* \ danddreclist* \ don'taskdon'ttelllist@ \ dontaskdonttelllist* \ ehlist* \ emptylist* \ erflist* \ flist* \ idealist* \ ioccclist* \ keenlist* \ list* \ listen* \ listlist* \ llist* \ makelist* \ makelistlist* \ minimalist* \ mlist* \ olist* \ pbflist* \ slist* \ smlist* \ stylist* \ testlist* \ xkcdwhatiflist* \ ysaclist*
13:56:18 <HackEso> listlistlist? No such file or directory
13:56:52 <int-e> `? calesyta2016list
13:56:53 <HackEso> calesyta2016list? ¯\(°_o)/¯
13:57:00 <int-e> this one can probably be removed :P
13:57:31 <HackEso> hbrl? No such file or directory
13:57:40 <int-e> `hurl ../bin/mlist
13:57:41 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/bin/mlist
13:59:37 <cpressey> int-e: in "the language where all programs do nothing", all programs are self-interpreters. You could add "non-trivial" to exclude this.
14:01:25 <int-e> "mlist" is obscure... https://esolangs.org/logs/2013-03-03.html#lRj ... I don't get it.
14:01:48 <int-e> cpressey: ais523 made that point; I actually made it non-trivial.
14:01:53 <cpressey> And much like how we can forbid "cheating quines" like 10 LIST 10 in BASIC, we can forbid any language that has a "self-interpret instruction".
14:02:15 <int-e> that's hard though
14:02:29 <cpressey> Any language where you have a self-interpret instruction, but it's not *obviously* a self-interpret instruction, is fair game
14:03:41 <cpressey> int-e: I was alluding to the technical meaning of "non-trivial" like it's used in Rice's theorem, but yes, ok, whatever, it's not important
14:04:01 <int-e> There's a huge spectrum between strange machines that accidentally can interpret your language to something like a bytecode interpreter to interpreting the language itself.
14:04:54 <int-e> Arguably you want to draw the line between the first two categories, and that seems to be very hard to capture formally to me.
14:05:18 <cpressey> I'd be interested to know what languages F_omega can and can't recognize
14:05:54 <cpressey> It must be more than PR, but less than RE
14:06:15 <int-e> (I should probably know this)
14:06:33 <int-e> eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_F#System_F%CF%89
14:08:07 <cpressey> Ah, there's also an implementation of Coq in Coq, which (assuming it's legit and not cheating somehow) suggests a similar thing might stand for that other corner of the lambda cube
14:10:28 <b_jonas> cpressey: in "http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2017-08-18.2460.html" the article that defines the (0) esolang, David Madore explains how you should define "self-interpreter" in a language that can't self-interpret in a traditional sense, like one that has only the power of primitive recursive
14:11:48 <b_jonas> in particular, if you restrict (0) to integer inputs, it's exactly as powerful as primitive recursive (BLoop), but he needs more generality than that there
14:13:37 <b_jonas> namely he wants to know what the easiest way is to prove that certain of those languages are equipowerful, and their computational complexity isn't as well known as the primitive recursive or the turing complete thing, and the only proof he knows is a really difficult one via such a full interpreter, which is annoying
14:21:48 <int-e> cpressey: Does it show that though? You'd have to check what kind of axioms the formalization uses.
14:25:57 <cpressey> int-e: That's what I meant by "assuming it's legit". I was in fact assuming it was invoking some kind of cheat, until I came across the F_omega self-interpreter paper - now I'm not so sure.
14:26:54 <cpressey> Well, I'm not convinced the F_omega thing isn't cheating somehow too. But I really just need to sit down and read it.
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14:38:36 <cpressey> int-e: Wait though. Say you have an interpreter for language L, and L is in computational class C. Then you add a self-interpret instruction to L to obtain L'. L' might no longer be in computational class C. So you haven't shown anything about computational class C by doing this.
14:39:02 <cpressey> (This is in response to your "That's probably just false".)
14:39:10 <int-e> Been down that path (see PR' above)
14:39:47 <int-e> Obviously the self-interpreter should take itself into account. This /may/ push it into RE territory.
14:40:31 <int-e> (because at least naively it involves some sort of fixed point)
14:41:14 <cpressey> OK, yes. I was thinking "add to L an instruction that interprets L programs", that's not quite the same thing
14:42:02 <int-e> Yes, there are lots of knobs to tweak here.
14:47:24 <esowiki> [[Element]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70781&oldid=69991 * LegionMammal978 * (-20) /* Interpreter */ fixed link
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15:05:23 <ais523> I find it hard to see how Coq could self-interpret, assuming it's consistent
15:05:35 <ais523> if it's consistent it can't typecheck itself, thus it can't prove a Coq program is total
15:05:51 <ais523> this means that you can't prove that the self-interpreter itself exits, so the program as a whole won't typecheck
15:07:41 <int-e> isn't type checking still decidable
15:08:27 <ais523> int-e: yes, but you need something more powerful than the CoC itself to decide it
15:08:44 <b_jonas> ais523: see above, there's an alternate definition for self-interpreter that works for self-interpreters in languages like BLoop
15:08:59 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70782&oldid=70106 * Palaiologos * (+540) up-to-date stuff
15:09:26 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm really slow at reading French though
15:09:28 <b_jonas> ais523: basically you define a function that takes a program and a number, and the function interprets the program except it stops after as many steps as that number
15:09:33 <ais523> and need to look up words sometimes
15:09:46 <ais523> b_jonas: ah right, the "run this program for this many steps" function
15:09:52 <ais523> that's much easier to implement than a true self-interpreter
15:10:17 <int-e> Hmm, do the inductive definitions add power?
15:10:20 <ais523> kspalaiologos: aren't there six general-purpose registers now?
15:10:30 <ais523> the article still says four, and then names six of them
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15:11:02 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70783&oldid=70782 * Palaiologos * (-1)
15:11:09 <ais523> it's OK, I just thought I'd let you know the mistake while you're around to fix it
15:11:34 <ais523> a long time ago I was writing my own asm-for-BF, and a gcc backend to targe it
15:11:45 <ais523> but the code has been lost, I think, due to gcc being too large to fit in my backups
15:11:54 <ais523> also I remember I stalled trying to find a good multiplication algorithm
15:12:23 <ais523> the ISA was very bf-specific, it contained instructions like tadd x, y (which sets x to x + y and y to 0)
15:12:38 <kspalaiologos> also I've made a c=>brainfuck compiler before supporting C89, but it outputs too big binaries to be reasonable
15:12:41 <ais523> and the stack pointer was magical
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15:13:05 <ais523> anyway, gcc wasn't as flexible as I wanted, it made too many assumptions which weren't correct in a BF context
15:13:20 <ais523> kspalaiologos: I think you do if you want to work with gcc's backend
15:13:27 <ais523> it's quite hard to get pre-existing C compilers to implement recursion without one
15:13:36 <ais523> (even though it is of course theoretically possible, they just aren't set up to use alternative methods)
15:13:44 <kspalaiologos> outputs simple yet beautifully small 8086 assembly
15:14:11 <kspalaiologos> so you can like do [sp-5] to get 5th element from the top
15:14:12 <ais523> oh, the stack pointer as a non-accessible register
15:14:14 <ais523> I think I did it like that too
15:14:36 <ais523> I had 64 general-purpose registers because general-purpose registers are cheap in BF
15:14:47 <ais523> (I was targeting a BF interpreter that used RLE optimization internally)
15:14:58 <kspalaiologos> I've split the memory into permagen with registers and temps, stack of definable size and peek/poke taperam
15:15:24 <kspalaiologos> now I'm working on general fixes involving infrastructure to make it more welcoming to beginners (although there aren't any)
15:15:39 <ais523> my split was GP registers, followed by interleaved stack and heap and temps
15:15:57 <ais523> (most of the temps were for navigational purposes, to remember where you were when moving between GP registers and stack/heap)
15:15:58 <kspalaiologos> my stack and taperam are actually separate from each other
15:16:17 <kspalaiologos> as far as I remember my permagen is just 20 brainfuck cells big
15:16:37 <kspalaiologos> and soon I plan on creating a virtual machine that would hint the brainfuck interpreter about the assembly code so you can debug asm2bf eaisly and test your programs
15:17:00 <ais523> I vaguely remember a point in the code where I multiplied something by 128 to determine whether it was odd or even
15:17:06 <ais523> so I assume I was targetting 8-bit wrapping
15:17:24 <kspalaiologos> my ISA assumes 16-bit cells, but it runs just fine on smaller cells aswell
15:17:52 <kspalaiologos> because it becomes a bit hairy if you run an 8bit interpreter, because you can index just 256b of taperam
15:18:25 <kspalaiologos> but I've got a bconv program that translated 16-bit compiliant bf code to 8bit compiliant one
15:18:28 <ais523> I used multiple consecutive cells to hold addresses
15:18:32 <ais523> just like real CPUs do
15:18:49 <kspalaiologos> ^ we don't use segment:offset adressing since 90's :p
15:19:18 <ais523> well, we still use multiple consecutive bytes to hold our 64-bit addresses
15:19:18 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70784&oldid=68928 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
15:19:33 <ais523> hmm, now I'm wondering what the fastest algorithm to seek to a cell by number is
15:20:04 <ais523> you'd want to drag the number with you rather than going back each time to decrement it
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15:20:36 <kspalaiologos> but I'll make a VM that will execute these programs faster
15:20:50 <kspalaiologos> so it doesn't bother me at all, because it works as brainfuck and VM is just a performance perk
15:21:03 <kspalaiologos> the same will go with my to-malbolge-private-compiler-suite
15:22:24 <ais523> another thing I've been thinking about is SSA compilation of counter machines (including balanced parts of brainfuck programs)
15:22:27 <ais523> or arguably "decompilation"
15:22:47 <kspalaiologos> but never got to creating such a tool to perform this
15:23:09 <kspalaiologos> because I laid a lot of requirements (like the brainfuck to 2/3 register counter machine compiler)
15:23:43 <ais523> I started, but got stuck because I didn't have clear enough rules for what was allowed to refer to what and what changed in the PHI nodes
15:24:01 <ais523> http://nethack4.org/pastebin/ssapmmn.tar.gz if you (or anyone else) is interested
15:24:18 <ais523> kspalaiologos: well, the point of SSA is that nothing ever changes, you create new variables rather than overwriting old ones
15:24:31 <ais523> but if the program contains any loops, at some point you have to overwrite an old variable with a new value
15:24:37 <ais523> because you only have finitely many
15:24:58 <ais523> and a phi node is one of the tricks used to do that, it defines a variable to mean one of two different things depending on the history of the code's control flow
15:25:17 <kspalaiologos> how do you want to analize the control flow history
15:25:28 <ais523> I don't think I understand it well enough to implement it correctly :-D
15:26:10 <ais523> but if you view things at the asm level, it's as simple as putting a phi node at a goto target and checking to see whether you got there via goto or via falling into it
15:26:22 <kspalaiologos> also I wonder is there a C interpreter for rle-based brainfuck already
15:26:31 <ais523> there are loads, I think
15:26:38 <kspalaiologos> because rn I'm decompressing the code and then running it but it's stupid very
15:26:42 <ais523> the problem being that there are /so many/ BF interpreters that finding the right one is hard
15:27:29 <ais523> you could probably just modify a BF Joust interpreter, RLE is part of the spec in BF Joust (although timing is also part of the spec so they will loop over RLEd sections one command at a time)
15:27:41 <ais523> the bigger problem would be finding an optimizing interpreter that takes RLE as input
15:30:42 <ais523> I've been meaning at some point to redo SSAPMMN but with more rigorous rules for how the internal asm-like format works, and accepting languages like BF, The Waterfall Model, etc., not just PMMN
15:50:50 <b_jonas> ais523: Bill Buzbee's retargeting a C compiler to Magic-1 is like that. Magic-1 has an accumulator instr set, sort of like 6502, so he lied to the compiler that there are 8 gp registers, but those are actually in memory
15:50:58 <b_jonas> http://www.homebrewcpu.com/
15:51:43 <b_jonas> only Magic-1 does not have zero-page addressing
15:51:53 <esowiki> [[EnilKode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70785&oldid=69288 * EnilKoder * (-41)
15:58:40 <kspalaiologos> when implementing Subleq to Brainfuck translator/interpreter (yes)
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18:05:22 <int-e> tromp: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/AIT/ is what I've been playing with (Kolmogorov complexity with open (self-delimited) inputs). The equivalent of pairup is 853 bits at the moment; I think that's not too bad compared to the 657.
18:06:37 <int-e> tromp: I'll look at the proof over the weekend. I think I want to have a look at the April Ponder This challenge first.
18:10:05 <tromp> i should look at that Ponder too
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18:17:20 <int-e> tromp: you might enjoy https://int-e.eu/~bf3/AIT/I1_c.lam which is a 71 bit length function (which is a bit shorter than what I've found in the AIT repo).
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18:54:45 <esowiki> [[FuckbeEs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70787&oldid=53228 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
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19:05:02 <ais523> b_jonas: if the registers are actually in memory, why not have lots of them? register spills are a disaster in such an architecture because you're copying things from one memory location to another for no good reason
19:05:22 <ais523> and providing additional registers in such an architecture is very cheap
19:05:51 <ais523> in RLE'd BF, providing additional registers is actually free because seeking to a fixed address has a constant cost regardless of the distance
19:06:06 <kspalaiologos> I mean if you're keen on making zillions of registers, then go ahead and index the whole tape
19:06:16 <kspalaiologos> but remember that you need a stack and taperam going
19:06:57 <ais523> if the memory addresses have fixed locations on the tape then that's fine
19:07:04 <ais523> but I don't see a reason why they necessarily would
19:07:23 <kspalaiologos> and if you're feeling eccentric enough, they can be nested
19:07:50 <ais523> I think I can see an argument for a zero-register construction
19:08:05 <ais523> I can't see an argument for a construction that has a number of general-purpose registers that's greater than zero, but small, though
19:08:45 <kspalaiologos> and I think it's surely enough, at least for the time being
19:08:58 <kspalaiologos> I'm sure I'll extend it the later day, but remember that RLE'd brainfuck ain't a standard
19:09:16 <kspalaiologos> I've gone exactly through the same mindset as you, so my C compiler produces a 12MB brainfuck binary :v)
19:09:32 <kspalaiologos> *"binary" <- not a binary actually, just the output file
19:10:09 <kspalaiologos> I plan on adding a register or two for effective adresses
19:10:17 <kspalaiologos> and a couple of registers for the floating point operations
19:11:01 <ais523> how do you implement multiplication, btw? just a repeated addition loop?
19:11:14 <ais523> part of my motivation for using an 8-bit tape was to prevent operations like that being very slow
19:11:38 <ais523> right, that looks like a repeated addition loop to me
19:11:44 <ais523> I felt that that wouldn't have the sort of performance I wanted
19:11:53 <kspalaiologos> what more do you want, I doubt one can do something about it
19:12:05 <kspalaiologos> and if it's actually possible to do that in a better way
19:12:39 <ais523> I'm not sure you can do something about it, either
19:12:48 <ais523> this is the point at which I gave up on my C-to-BF compiler
19:12:55 <ais523> because i couldn't find a solution to this that I was satisfied with
19:13:22 <ais523> ofc, optimizing BF compilers will recognise that sort of multiply and optimize it out anyway
19:13:30 <ais523> so maybe it isn't a real issue in practice
19:14:25 <spruit11> Anyone here who could support an arxiv submission of an Egel paper of mine?
19:14:30 <ais523> why can't I worry about BF performance?
19:14:51 <ais523> spruit11: oerjan is the first name that comes to mind, but isn't here at the moment
19:15:14 <ais523> of course, it would rather depend on how eso the paper was
19:15:32 <ais523> fizzie might be able to? not sure
19:15:39 <kspalaiologos> I mean - brainfuck isn't the best language for writing at least mildly performant applications in it's pure form
19:15:49 <kspalaiologos> and to do something more interesting and fast you have to extend it
19:16:00 <ais523> kspalaiologos: I see programming as communication, you're trying to tell a computer (or another human) what you mean
19:16:04 <spruit11> @tell oerjan Could, or would, you be so kind to support an arxiv submission of a paper I wrote?
19:16:34 <ais523> and that allows for optimization at both ends of the computation, both for the person writing it, and for the computer understanding it
19:16:58 <ais523> BF is a particularly simple form of programming, but a fully general one, so getting humans to be able to express ideas more efficiently, and computers to be able to understand and run them more efficiently, seems valuable
19:17:29 <ais523> I care about OISCs too!
19:17:44 <kspalaiologos> I used to have a very similliar mindset on programming back in the day
19:17:53 <ais523> actually, most of the esolangs I care about are either a) simpler than BF in some senses, or else b) particularly interesting ways of conveying information about what you mean
19:18:47 <ais523> Brachylog is one of my favourite languages
19:19:03 <ais523> it gets further than most languages at allowing you to express the problem, rather than having to describe a solution to it
19:19:59 <ais523> right, given a description of the problem, it attempts to determine a solution to it without being explicitly told an algorithm
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19:20:09 <ais523> it isn't perfect at doing this, but it's better than most non-esolangs and almost all esolangs
19:20:27 <ais523> this has made it a particularly good language for programming competitions
19:20:43 <ais523> normal Prolog is also pretty good at this, but it's rather low-level
19:20:58 <ais523> and you often have to pay attention to how it works internally to make your programs work
19:21:29 <ais523> yes, Brachylog incorporates at least one (a constraint solver for integer arithmetic)
19:21:37 <kspalaiologos> that not necessairly make the engine create an O(N^N^N^N^N^N) solution
19:21:37 <ais523> also, its standard library just understands more concepts
19:21:48 <ais523> oh, performance is, of course, a huge issue when doing this sort of thing :-D
19:22:39 <HackEso> 93326215443944152681699238856266700490715968264381621468592963895217599993229915608941463976156518286253697920827223758251185210916864000000000000000000000000 \ true.
19:22:47 <kspalaiologos> because I'm starting to find the potential for this
19:22:49 <ais523> the thing is, Brachylog already knows what a factorial is
19:23:08 <kspalaiologos> man, for example one could solve like logical riddles or something like that using prolog
19:23:31 <kspalaiologos> and it would be ten times more amazing if it fit on my TI-83+
19:23:58 <HackEso> 93326215443944152681699238856266700490715968264381621468592963895217599993229915608941463976156518286253697920827223758251185210916864000000000000000000000000 \ true.
19:24:07 <ais523> there, that's without using the builtin
19:24:17 <ais523> "product of all the numbers from 1 to 100 inclusive"
19:24:59 <ais523> `! brachylog ⟦₁×93326215443944152681699238856266700490715968264381621468592963895217599993229915608941463976156518286253697920827223758251185210916864000000000000000000000000&w
19:25:10 <ais523> see, you can't do /that/ from the definition in most languages
19:25:16 <ais523> and the performance still seemed to be pretty good
19:25:26 <ais523> `! brachylog ⟦₁×93326215443944152681699238856266700490715968264381621468592963895217599993229915608941463976156518286253697920827223758251185210916864000000000000000000000001&w
19:25:32 <ais523> just curious as to whether it realises that's impossible
19:25:39 <kspalaiologos> can you write a program that calculates factorial of 1,000 and displays how many digits does it have?
19:25:40 <ais523> this is one of the biggest problems with Brachylog
19:26:39 <ais523> I'm basically 100% sure it actually calculated every digit, then counted them
19:26:46 <ais523> rather than doing anything to optimize the calculation
19:27:29 <ais523> Brachylog's biggest downside is that it the algorithms it uses look only locally, it knows what it's doing for each individual command in the program but looks at them in order and doesn't handle any sort of long-range optimization
19:28:51 <ais523> the syntax takes a bit of getting used to, too, but that's common with esolangs
19:29:19 <kspalaiologos> Brachylog: Real time: 1.940 s C: Real time: 0.286 s
19:29:36 <kspalaiologos> I mean that's understandable that it took around 10 times more time
19:30:01 <ais523> what bignum library is the C program using?
19:30:05 <ais523> I'd expect that to dominate the time
19:30:23 <ais523> oh, then the C program is probably just calculating the low 32/64 bits
19:30:25 <kspalaiologos> I just wrote a tiny multiplication algorithm over char array
19:30:38 <ais523> ah, so a handrolled bignum library
19:31:50 <ais523> anyway, it's clear to me that a "more intelligent" brachylog-alike could realise that 100!+1 is not the factorial of any number (e.g. by realising the factorial function is increasing)
19:32:20 <ais523> but our current declarative languages aren't up to the task of realising that and will keep brute-forcing possibilities for ever larger numbers forever
19:32:25 <kspalaiologos> I'd train an AI to solve these riddles for me because it's more probable
19:32:45 <ais523> hmm, /isn't/ this training an AI to solve riddles for you, in a way?
19:33:14 <kspalaiologos> also the AI has been trained manually by prolog developers
19:33:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Galapagos * New user account
19:33:50 <ais523> there's a difference between strong AI, which figures things out itself from training data
19:34:00 <ais523> and weak AI which has more things hardcoded and is more specialised to one particular job
19:35:11 <kspalaiologos> but never got around to learning it, because the sources are a bit uncomprehendable
19:35:23 <kspalaiologos> and even if the sources, there was no one to learn me it
19:35:37 <ais523> well, CS theory is my job
19:35:43 <ais523> but it's a very big field, and I'm only interested in parts of it
19:36:06 <HackEso> 1280) <ais523> hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps
19:36:17 <ais523> kspalaiologos: I was formally trained to tune harps, that doesn't mean it's my current job (or indeed that I've ever done it for money)
19:36:29 <ais523> it's more just a random fact
19:37:14 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70788&oldid=70774 * Galapagos * (+254) /* Introductions */
19:37:24 <ais523> in my case, it's more like monetising my esolang knowledge
19:37:33 <ais523> when a CS researcher comes up with an idea for a new style of programming
19:37:38 <ais523> they need someone to test it out and see if it could work
19:37:57 <ais523> and, well, there aren't that many people who are up for programming in newly invented languages, especially if they have to implement the language too
19:38:09 <kspalaiologos> so you're essentially a guinea pig for CS researchers?
19:38:20 <ais523> right, or was; my current job's drifted away a bit from that
19:38:29 <kspalaiologos> one can't write Brainfuck-based casino software forever :p
19:38:55 <HackEso> kspalaiologos is a brainfuck addict and a late night Perl hacker. He's secretly disassembling brainfuck code for a casino that lost the source code. Apparently knows the secret of Malbolge.
19:39:09 <ais523> hmm, this implies that the casino compiled to BF
19:39:14 <ais523> which seems like an odd thing to do
19:39:26 <ais523> (otherwise, their BF code would /be/ the source code)
19:40:25 <ais523> I love the idea that BF is fulfilling a similar role in industry as BANCStar
19:40:41 <ais523> or I should say "commerce", casinos aren't very industrial
19:41:07 <ais523> it's basically a (really terrible) bytecode format that was used as the backend for some sort of commercial GUI program
19:41:19 <ais523> but the frontend that compiled to it was bad enough that people started programming in BANCStar directly
19:41:39 <ais523> it's generally considered one of the worst programming languages to exist, other than ones which were intentionally created as bad (maybe even then, because it has less of an excuse)
19:41:58 <ais523> the issue is that because it was a commercial product, nobody seems quite clear on the specs
19:42:05 <ais523> it is way worse than COBOL or JavaScript
19:42:32 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/BANCStar
19:43:50 <ais523> <Wikipedia> BANCStar is a specialist computer programming language for financial applications.[citation needed] The language is an internal language for the National Financial Computer Services, Inc (later Broadway & Seymour) BANCStar application, which is software to automate the operations of a bank branch
19:45:08 <ais523> actually, BANCStar was the name of the software written in it, but became attached to the language itself somehow
19:45:21 <ais523> the language itself was originally called "screen code" but it isn't a very memorable or searchable name
19:45:43 <ais523> it was intended to write user interfaces for banks, we don't know all that much beyond that though
19:46:21 <zzo38> Some things have been figured out by looking at the existing programs, although some things are unknown, and some people (including myself) disagree about the ideas of what some of the commands are supposed to mean.
19:47:01 <ais523> I mean, it makes /slightly/ more sense as a bytecode format than a programming language, but it's clearly terribly designed for either role
19:48:19 <ais523> anyway, your casino programmer probably compiled to BF in the hope that the casino wouldn't then be able to fire them
19:48:25 <ais523> because nobody would be able to do anything with the resulting code
19:48:39 <kspalaiologos> they wanted to have a Brainfuck or Malbolge solution
19:48:46 <ais523> so maybe BANCStar has a similar purpose? it looks like the sort of thing that would only be created by a large collaboration though
19:49:03 <ais523> I would think using BF or Malbolge would be security through obscurity more than anything else
19:49:25 <ais523> raw uncommented BF isn't that much harder to understand than raw uncommented machine code
19:50:09 <zzo38> I think BANCStar was legitimate, and may have been originally designed to write the code directly but the designer decided it wasn't very good for that purpose and so made the screen generator instead and then never documented the code.
19:50:39 <zzo38> (Of course I don't know, so, I just guess.)
19:50:40 <kspalaiologos> would there be a person willing to reverse enginner it?
19:50:46 <kmc> what's this about a casino using bf?
19:51:00 <ais523> kspalaiologos: there are definitely people who would try just for the challenge, I'm not sure how far they'd get before giving up
19:51:11 <ais523> note that I believe that Malbolge is considerably easier to read than it is to write
19:51:36 <ais523> because the hardest part in Malbolge is making everything fit together so that it's encryption-stable and keeping control of the C and D pointers
19:51:45 <ais523> and a reader doesn't have to do that, only a writer
19:52:20 <kspalaiologos> a decent safe malbolge program would be around 10MB
19:52:36 <ais523> most of it would be no-ops, though, wouldn't it?
19:52:54 <ais523> or, well, you can't put a stable no-op everywhere
19:53:11 <ais523> so I guess much of it is code that doesn't do anything but is not obviously a no-op
19:53:26 <kspalaiologos> we need to distinguish malbolge code and a bit optimized malbolge code
19:54:39 <ais523> that's a good point, though, distinguishing padding from useful code is going to be hard without prior knowledge of which is which
19:56:02 <kspalaiologos> you can view some malbolge samples and get a taste of this
19:56:11 <kspalaiologos> https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/codegolf-submissions
19:56:20 <ais523> I haven't found a good environment for reading Malbolge yet
19:56:33 <ais523> raw Malbolge is hard to read, normalized Malbolge doesn't contain all the information you'd need and doesn't really help much
19:58:49 <ais523> anyway, something like https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/codegolf-submissions/blob/master/60106.mb, I can tell that it's pretty NOP-heavy even without normalizing
19:59:34 <ais523> also, that appears to be not Malbolge, but rather HTML-escaped Malbolge
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20:00:07 <ais523> but not everywhere, some lines aren't escaped
20:00:38 <ais523> now I'm curious as to how that happened
20:02:13 <ais523> they aren't long slides
20:02:24 <ais523> more, you have 20 commands in a row and perhaps 14/15 of them are nops
20:02:48 <ais523> I think, at least, it's a pain working out which of the 8 sequences a given reverse-ASCII sequence is
20:03:09 <ais523> I must be one of the few people who tries to sightread Malbolge, and it's mostly just to confirm it as Malbolge and get a feeling of the shape of the code
20:03:26 <ais523> I haven't gotten very far programming in it, I mostly just help beginners on Stack Overflow
20:03:37 <kspalaiologos> you help beginners program malbolge on stackoverflow
20:03:49 <ais523> (the idea is to fix whatever misconception they had that was making them think it was easier than it actually is, then they give up)
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20:04:23 <zzo38> My guess is that command 3100 in BANCStar means that if the condition isn't true then it is an error and you have to rekey the input.
20:04:45 <zzo38> (This guess is based on how the command is used in the known programs.)
20:05:32 <ais523> zzo38: I'm just intrigued that BANCStar manages to be /so/ horrible it drives a brainfuck and Malbolge developer away in horror
20:06:00 <ais523> although I guess neither brainfuck nor Malbolge was designed to be a bad language (although neither was BANCStar…)
20:06:09 <ais523> Malbolge was designed to be hard to program in, which is different from being bad
20:06:29 <ais523> I forget the exact goal brainfuck was optimizing for, but it was something related to size or simplicity
20:07:11 <tromp> int-e: I read your AIT notes. excellent research! your note say that I1_f uses KO(t|s) but I guess you mean KO(t|s*) ?
20:08:04 <int-e> tromp: KO(t|u) is defined in terms of u^* just like Chaitin does.
20:08:32 <tromp> the main advantage of my KP is that such a thm with KP(t|s) instead of KP(t|s*) would be rather trivial. Ah, Ok. I thought it better to make the * explicit
20:09:03 <int-e> Which is a bit awkward, but it is what makes the other direction of the symmetry of information tick.
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20:09:36 <tromp> an implicit * is just too confusing though
20:09:52 <int-e> As I said, I'm just following Chaitin there.
20:09:59 <tromp> and doesn't allow you to express the simple version
20:10:37 <int-e> I might change it. Maybe.
20:10:39 <tromp> i know, but I think this is one place where Chaitin should not be followed:)
20:11:19 <esowiki> [[PlusOrMinus 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70789&oldid=70768 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) /* Commands */ output
20:11:57 <tromp> I quite like your KO version too. But I'm not ready to replace KP with it. Maybe they should live side by side:-)
20:12:41 <tromp> you will get a different halting probability. a simpler one. so that is one point in favor of yours
20:13:17 <int-e> Chaitin's u^* is a bit of a red herring actually... what is essential for the second part of the symmetry of information is knowing both H(u) and u.
20:13:51 <int-e> (Because H(u) gives you a baseline for the probability P(u))
20:16:18 <tromp> btw, in a fit of optimism (about @w correctness and my manual proofs) I added BB(33) and BB(34) to OEIS
20:16:32 <ais523> what's the OEIS sequence number?
20:16:51 <ais523> ah, found it, http://oeis.org/A333479
20:16:52 <tromp> https://oeis.org/A333479
20:19:04 <ais523> that sequence grows surprisingly slowly
20:19:22 <ais523> at least to start with
20:19:33 <tromp> I suspect BB(35) = 38127987424941
20:19:34 <ais523> being a busy beaver sequence, it won't be long before it grows at rates too fast to comprehend or describe
20:19:56 <ais523> ah, that's more like it :-D
20:20:18 <ais523> what function is being approximately computed? or is it not easy to tell?
20:20:28 <ais523> most small busy beaver numbers "summarize" well
20:20:30 <tromp> we have BB(53) being an exponential tower with well over 256 levels
20:20:50 <ais523> `` printf "%x" 38127987424941
20:21:20 <int-e> tromp: Hmm, are you collecting those lower bounds somewhere?
20:21:50 <tromp> the math overflow has some, and this one I added as note in my OEIS draft
20:23:27 <ais523> ah right, I associated that wrong
20:23:47 <tromp> size(church_n) = 5*n+6
20:24:32 <int-e> Ah, 3^3^3, of course.
20:24:46 <ais523> brachylog isn't very good at reassociating things
20:24:56 <ais523> and I keep getting , versus ; versus : confused
20:25:20 <ais523> `! brachylog 3^₂₇×₅+₆w
20:25:40 <int-e> `` dc <<<'3dd^^5*6+p'
20:25:45 <ais523> fwiw, I figured out there was a pattern from the hexadecimal
20:26:12 <ais523> it looked a lot like it was something multiplied by 5, based on what digits resulted
20:26:16 <int-e> `` dc <<<'16o3dd^^5*6+p'
20:26:18 <ais523> `` printf "%x" $((38127987424941/5))
20:26:39 <ais523> although I'm not sure that helped, now it just looks random :-D
20:27:21 <int-e> I had an advantage... I already knew the 5n+6 part.
20:28:21 <tromp> 3-powers are bound to look random in binary:(
20:29:30 <ais523> 2-powers seemed likely to show up before 3-powers, perhaps not though
20:30:19 <ais523> anyway, on another topic: what does the fastest possible FizzBuzz look like?
20:30:37 <ais523> I have a suspicion that you might not generate it in order
20:30:54 <ais523> (the aim here is to output the longest FizzBuzz sequence you can in, say, 1 second or 10 seconds)
20:31:03 <tromp> yes, BB(4) corresponds to 2^2^2^2
20:32:16 <ais523> ah right, and that isn't on OEIS yet
20:32:34 <ais523> 65536 is possibly the non-small number that most commonly appears in busy beavers
20:32:52 <ais523> because there are a lot of different ways to construct it and it thus appears in a lot of different fast-growing sequences
20:32:54 <tromp> pretty awesome to have two consecutive comprehensible busy beaver numbers
20:33:38 <tromp> they're awaiting approval
20:34:00 <int-e> Well there's https://oeis.org/draft/A333479
20:35:09 <int-e> So we can see what you're doing if we want to :)
20:35:43 <int-e> Oh apparently that link format is not easily discoverable without an OEIS account.
20:42:53 <tromp> TMs describable in 35 bits only reach a busy beaver value of 13 :-(
20:44:59 <tromp> and those describable in 46 bits likely reach only 4098
20:45:57 <int-e> TMs are awkward to program
20:46:13 <tromp> a brainfuck busy beaver would struggle similarly
20:46:17 <ais523> by contrast, Brachylog reaches a program whose halting status is unknown in 24 bits
20:46:54 <tromp> sounds worthy of a blog post!
20:47:19 <ais523> https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/97004/does-the-code-terminate/177438#177438
20:47:44 <int-e> I mean, if you look at how we program TMs in practice, the number of states is a fair measure of program size. There's a lot of messy behavior outside the fragment we actually have a chance of understanding well enough for actual programming.
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20:48:48 <int-e> BLC also has a lot of garbage programs, of course, but the programmable fragment feels bigger.
20:49:54 <int-e> I can compute 0.291652 now, time for bed.
20:50:10 <ais523> golfing languages aim to maximise the size of the programmable fragment, more or less by definition, so you'd expect them to hit unknown BB values faster
20:50:17 <esowiki> [[PlusOrMinus 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70790&oldid=70789 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Examples */
20:51:07 <ais523> this particular program is weird, though, it's using string operators on numbers and generates the Smarandache sequence
20:51:34 <ais523> which is a weird sequence because every element checked so far is composite, even though there doesn't seem to be any particular reason why it should be
20:53:37 <ais523> someone did a busy-beaver-like search in number theory, too, and the simplest statement that neither they nor their program could prove true or false was "there are infinitely many prime numbers of the form x²-2"
20:54:18 <int-e> (the number 0.291652 is from http://www.research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/challenges/April2020.html )
20:54:23 <ais523> but that can't easily be converted into a program that searches for a counterexample, you'd need a proof both ways
20:58:02 <tromp> that statement seems no simpler than goldbach's conjecture
21:00:24 <ais523> tromp: simpler in terms of the number of primitives needed to express it in the language they were using
21:01:06 <tromp> they were able to prove it could not be expressed more concisely?
21:01:22 <tromp> or maybe just by best effort?
21:01:41 <tromp> what language was that?
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21:03:52 <tromp> must be a language with universal and existential quantifiers...
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21:22:51 <ais523> tromp: peano arithmetic with universal and existential quantifiers
21:23:14 <ais523> the brute-force search found a few statements that were all effectively equivalent to each other
21:23:23 <ais523> and there was nothing simpler that couldn't be easily proven true or false
21:34:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hdjensofjfnen * New user account
21:36:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70791&oldid=70788 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+158)
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21:39:09 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70792&oldid=70741 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+28)
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21:47:41 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70793&oldid=70792 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+43) /* Hexagony */
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22:50:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70794&oldid=35649 * Ais523 * (+287) /* Binary operators */ this actually happened
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23:30:27 <kspalaiologos> I've been interrupted three times now so the second has became around 3 hours
23:31:09 <kspalaiologos> They had three very interesting topic though so I couldn't resist
23:31:30 <kspalaiologos> Wrecking 1300's in chess, chernobyl disaster and my mental health
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23:55:32 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70795&oldid=70766 * JonoCode9374 * (+20) /* Languages I like */
00:38:49 <esowiki> [[PlusOrMinus 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70796&oldid=70790 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+39) Add cat
00:45:46 <esowiki> [[Function x(y)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70797&oldid=70765 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) /* Syntax */ no floats
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01:00:27 <esowiki> [[Gecho]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70798&oldid=69710 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
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01:07:51 <zzo38> Do you like to play any chess variant?
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01:37:30 <zzo38> Do you know if 2600 will still be printed?
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02:19:31 <esowiki> [[Goruby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70799&oldid=46968 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
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02:51:05 <b_jonas> ais523: "if the registers are actually in memory, why not have lots of them" => well, I remembered wrong. what I was about the registers was just false
02:51:09 <esowiki> [[GreenBerry]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70800&oldid=68591 * LegionMammal978 * (+16) fixed title
02:52:41 <b_jonas> the info about the compiler is actually at "http://www.homebrewcpu.com/retargeting_lcc.htm" , it says the compiler knows of only the A and B registers of the machine, the memory register hack is used only for 32-bit integers because the machine has no such registers, and those are mapped to the stack frame (which has short addressing modes), not global memory
02:59:21 <esowiki> [[Groinfrick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70801&oldid=53825 * LegionMammal978 * (+15) fixed title
03:02:17 <esowiki> [[Gtltem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70802&oldid=45923 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
03:05:50 <b_jonas> "<ais523> so maybe BANCStar has a similar purpose?" => no, that one is probably because the interpreter was used for a much more suitable use in another bank or something, and then the customer bank decided that it must be a good framework and was willing to buy it and pay their engineers to buy it, just for the brand or name recognition, without realizing that it's not suitable for the kind of programs
03:06:41 <b_jonas> and especially that the previous team actually had the source code for thethe interpreter too and added more features to it whenever the target app needed functions more complicated than just adding a new field to a form,
03:07:08 <b_jonas> but this customer didn't realize that that was necessary, and just payed a software dev team to program in the existing framework.
03:07:35 <b_jonas> at least that's my very biased guess.
03:09:55 <zzo38> Maybe. Or, maybe not.
03:14:21 <b_jonas> int-e: OEIS format is documented at http://oeis.org/eishelp1.html
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03:31:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Forte]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70803&oldid=50817 * Quadril-Is * (+660)
03:31:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:Forte]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70804&oldid=70803 * Quadril-Is * (-6)
03:39:05 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70805&oldid=70307 * YamTokTpaFa * (+275) /* Where can I find a compiler/interpreter of ABCDXYZ? */ new section
03:45:12 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70806&oldid=70805 * YamTokTpaFa * (+490) /* Should Nuts be deleted? */ new section
03:50:53 <zzo38> I am writing a new ZZT external editor, which is Linux-based rather than ZZTQED which is DOS-based and is slow. This new one is much faster and is written half in C and half in SQL, and can (optionally) use the new features of FreeZZT.
03:51:54 <zzo38> I also wrote two C files used with it, display.c which emulates a PC text screen, and zzt.c which is dealing with ZZT worlds; other people might also find these programs useful even when used with other stuff too, maybe.
03:52:07 <zzo38> (However, display.c requires SDL 1.x, so if you don't have that, then it won't work)
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05:48:25 <zzo38> Finite discrete categories are like natural numbers, isn't it? And then you can also add, multiply, exponent, of categories too, and is the same thing, as with the natural numbers in the case of discrete categories, I think. I think that actually natural numbers will occur a lot in mathematics, isn't it?
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08:48:24 <int-e> So... barring bugs, I'm done with the April Ponder This? That went better than anticipated.
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10:49:06 <tromp> looks like straightforward (dynamic) programming
10:50:48 <int-e> (Maybe, but it doesn't match how I thought about it at all.)
10:55:05 <tromp> you enumerated all 8 node graphs?
10:55:31 <tromp> i expect it can't be done with 7 nodes:)
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10:56:28 <int-e> Oh maybe I do know what you meant with DP.
11:00:26 <tromp> computing the probability that a particular subset of nodes is the set of infected nodes after i steps
11:24:41 <int-e> Okay, then I did interpret the DP reference correctly after all.
11:24:51 <int-e> But I saw a Markov chain and matrix multiplication :P
11:43:19 <int-e> Hrm, why did I put that here.
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12:46:04 <kspalaiologos> how can one write a program that will guess a formula for given equation
12:46:31 <kspalaiologos> if x = blah, y = blah, and (some formula involving x and/or y)=known z
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13:34:05 <esowiki> [[Hatemath]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70807&oldid=69897 * LegionMammal978 * (+2049) fixed title, added old interpreter from revision 54384
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14:12:13 <int-e> kspalaiologos: if it was a joke, surely it would be using else: if: with proper indentation
14:13:58 <int-e> I've seen worse. (Haven't we all.)
14:22:47 <kspalaiologos> well, this code is not great not terrible, I've seen worse and I have to admit it.
14:23:14 <kspalaiologos> but it's just a cheering thing to see this afternoon
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15:06:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Hunter]] to [[HUNTER]]: fix capitalization
15:06:43 <esowiki> [[HUNTER]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70810&oldid=70808 * LegionMammal978 * (+0) fixed title
15:34:40 <kritixilithos> '<cpressey> Although what computability class F_omega represents, I don't know. I imagine that it is at least primitive recursive, and probably beyond primitive recursive to some degree. i.e. I would not be surprised if you could write the Ackermann function in F_omega. But again, I don't really know, yet.' => apparently even F2 can do ackermann
15:35:04 <kritixilithos> slide 114 of http://www.cse.chalmers.se/research/group/logic/TypesSS05/Extra/miquel_sl1.pdf
16:11:12 <int-e> All you need is proper (polymorphic) Church numerals.
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16:59:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:I like frog]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70811 * LegionMammal978 * (+855) Created page with "A few questions: * For <code>like i</code>, how are ternary numbers converted into bits? Do the inserted bits start at the cell at the pointer or the cell to the right of the..."
17:14:24 <spruit11> I am still looking for an endorser for arxiv.
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17:42:16 <esowiki> [[Metatape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70812&oldid=66936 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+34) /* Instructions */
17:43:58 <esowiki> [[Metatape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70813&oldid=70812 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+22) /* Instructions */
17:44:31 <esowiki> [[Metatape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70814&oldid=70813 * Hdjensofjfnen * (-35) /* Instructions */
17:53:28 <kspalaiologos> chill, oerjan ain't a 24/7 CS problem IRC hotline :p
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18:19:59 <esowiki> [[Metatape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70815&oldid=70814 * Hdjensofjfnen * (-4) /* Language overview */
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20:21:17 <kritixilithos> i'm getting confused about kinds and types, so if α:*, β:*, (λa:α.b:β):α→β, is the type of 'α→β' '*' or '*→*' (i think its the former)? so would Πα:*.α be of type *→*?
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20:59:23 <kmc> yes and yes
20:59:38 <kmc> and they aren't here anymore but maybe will read the logs or something.
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21:26:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:ABCDXYZ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70816&oldid=65857 * Ais523 * (+7712) paste the implementation onto the talk page
21:27:17 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70817&oldid=70806 * Ais523 * (+199) /* Where can I find a compiler/interpreter of ABCDXYZ? */ I put it on [[Talk:ABCDXYZ]]
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21:29:44 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70818&oldid=70817 * Ais523 * (+765) /* Should Nuts be deleted? */ where does the content come from?
21:32:26 <b_jonas> kritixilithos: no, (Πα:*.α) is still of kind *
21:33:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Forte]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70819&oldid=70804 * Ais523 * (+675) /* The first error */ it's an error by definition; why I defined it to be an error
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21:44:31 * kmc forgot what Π means maybe :/
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22:36:35 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Icecream17 * New user account
22:40:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70820&oldid=70791 * Icecream17 * (+306) introduce
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23:26:19 <esowiki> [[KeyVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70821&oldid=70601 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
23:27:56 <esowiki> [[KeyVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70822&oldid=70821 * LegionMammal978 * (-14) unfixed title based on repo
23:33:46 <esowiki> [[Kitanai]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70823&oldid=60539 * LegionMammal978 * (+82) added repo link
00:26:06 <esowiki> [[L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70824&oldid=66891 * LegionMammal978 * (-148) it's pretty obviously Python
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01:10:52 <esowiki> [[Lazy Bird]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70825&oldid=20117 * LegionMammal978 * (+33) /* External ressources */ fix link
01:14:37 <zzo38> O, now the new rules of Magic: the Gathering say that companion cards must be shown when the game begins.
01:17:28 <esowiki> [[Leszek]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70826&oldid=22715 * LegionMammal978 * (+25) /* External resources */ fixed link
01:18:20 <zzo38> Now counters have timestamps too, and I don't really like that much.
01:20:19 <esowiki> [[Lhooq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70827&oldid=50016 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
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01:54:22 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70828 * Icecream17 * (+5886) ugh this is hard. but i finally did it
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01:59:47 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70829&oldid=70828 * Icecream17 * (+271) reassurance, comment
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02:33:23 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Logstack]] to [[LogStack]]: fix capitalization
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02:54:17 <esowiki> [[Flurry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70832&oldid=70605 * Challenger5 * (-10)
02:58:05 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[M-code]] to [[M-Code]]: fix capitalization
02:58:05 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Talk:M-code]] to [[Talk:M-Code]]: fix capitalization
02:58:58 <esowiki> [[M-Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70837&oldid=70833 * LegionMammal978 * (+0) re-fixed capitalization based on the interpreter's documentation
03:04:35 <esowiki> [[M?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70838&oldid=62346 * LegionMammal978 * (+129) added categories
03:09:09 <esowiki> [[Rogex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70839&oldid=69579 * Lebster * (+1) /* Hello, world! */
03:16:11 <esowiki> [[Rogex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70840&oldid=70839 * Lebster * (+146) /* Commands */
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04:25:33 <zzo38> According to "ncal -e" and "ncal -o", the Orthodox Easter is one week after the Catholic Easter this year.
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04:46:52 <b_jonas> imagine if televisions and analog cameras had originally been designed to scan lines alternatingly left and right, boustrophedon style! it would have made the PPUs of computer terminal so much more complicated, then later the computer software complicated, we'd still be dealing with some of the fallout from it, just like how we sometimes have to deal with interlaced video
04:49:15 <zzo38> Yes, although they didn't do that. Also many computers used 240p in order to avoid interlacing anyways, I think.
04:51:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: true, partly to avoid interlacing, and partly because the CPUs do 8 bit arithmetic, so having the width and height of the screen in pixels be just a bit lower than 256 (in the NES and the game boy) is both convenient for manipulating sprites and causes some amusing wraparound bugs (NES Jekyl and Hyde has the weirdest one, but there are minor ones in many other games)
04:54:22 <zzo38> Although the CRTC chip used in PC has a interlacing mode, although it isn't used in PC. (It also has a cursor blinking mode, which also isn't used in PC; the PC has its own logic for cursor blinking. I have the schematics, so I know how it is working, including the undocumented cyan/red/white mode.)
05:23:32 <b_jonas> I often see smbc comics that are very close to an xkcd strip, or backwards, but today is I think the first time when the strips for the same day are similar:
05:24:12 <b_jonas> https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/inching vs https://xkcd.com/2292/ (for the future, because SMBC makes it very hard to find the strip for a given date)
05:29:02 <int-e> I'm reminded of https://futurism.com/coldest-hottest-temperatures-known-universe-infographic where a few of the higher temperatures are clearly estimates in Kelvin, converted to Celsius. (I remembered one, 99,999,999,726°C, but there are also 36,926°C and 6627°C.
05:29:31 * int-e wonders how many single-line closing parenthesis he has in the log. Must be quite a few.
05:30:01 <int-e> maybe I should try to compensate for them like this.)
05:32:05 <int-e> Oh I still missed a couple. But I'm sure you can find them yourself. :P
05:45:44 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, that's the smaller side-effect of pop articles refusing to write big numbers in mantissa-exponent form. the bigger side effect is that they write numbers like "100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000" that are totally uninformative unless you take the time to have a computer count the digits
05:46:24 <b_jonas> or similarly "hundred thousand million million million million million million"
05:47:10 <int-e> It's better than the unadorned 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000.
05:47:42 <b_jonas> dunno, at that point I don't bother counting by hand anyway, just have a computer do it
05:47:52 <b_jonas> well, at least in a digital text
05:48:17 <b_jonas> admittedly in printed text, the commas are better
05:48:41 <int-e> Well the groups of three do help. For example, they make 100,000,000,000 quite manageable to decipher.
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05:51:16 <int-e> (But pushing it beyond 4, maybe 5 groups, isn't very helpful. It's not like I have any sense of how big those numbers are anyway, except by switching to a logarithmic scale and pretending it means something.)
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05:52:26 <int-e> And basically that switch is what scientific notation does.
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08:47:34 <kritixilithos> b_jonas: thanks, i am able to follow this type derivation from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_cube#Formal_definition, but i guess i don't have the intuition yet
08:55:31 <b_jonas> kritixilithos: don't believe what I say about that type system either, I don't really understand it
08:57:27 -!- int-e has set topic: Welcome to the international hatchery for esoteric programming discussion, design, egg-plants, development, and deployment! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/.
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10:20:39 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Noxomix * New user account
10:26:57 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70841&oldid=70820 * Noxomix * (+278) edited
10:30:51 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70842 * Noxomix * (+27) Created page with "[[Category:Joke languages]]"
10:32:21 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70843&oldid=70842 * Noxomix * (+27)
10:40:09 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70844&oldid=70843 * Noxomix * (+213) /* What is WebFuckLang? */
10:40:45 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70845&oldid=70844 * Noxomix * (+13)
10:45:05 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70846&oldid=70845 * Noxomix * (+8)
10:48:37 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70847&oldid=70750 * Noxomix * (+70)
10:53:50 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70848&oldid=70846 * Noxomix * (+146)
10:58:12 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70849&oldid=70848 * Noxomix * (+133)
10:59:08 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70850&oldid=70849 * Noxomix * (+109)
10:59:29 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70851&oldid=70850 * Noxomix * (+0)
10:59:37 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70852&oldid=70851 * Noxomix * (+0)
11:03:35 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70853&oldid=70852 * Noxomix * (+352)
11:06:40 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70854&oldid=70853 * Noxomix * (+144)
11:07:45 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70855&oldid=70854 * Noxomix * (-150)
11:08:42 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70856&oldid=70855 * Noxomix * (-1)
11:08:56 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70857&oldid=70856 * Noxomix * (-20)
11:09:09 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70858&oldid=70857 * Noxomix * (-15) /* The basic Syntax */
11:09:49 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70859&oldid=70858 * Noxomix * (+67)
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11:37:28 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70860&oldid=70859 * Noxomix * (+678)
11:45:59 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70861&oldid=70860 * Noxomix * (+445)
11:51:43 <esowiki> [[MemPanic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70862&oldid=11368 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
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11:54:40 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70863&oldid=70861 * Noxomix * (+309)
11:57:57 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70864&oldid=70637 * RocketRace * (+746) Add examples of valid/invalid statements
12:00:26 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70865&oldid=70863 * Noxomix * (+111) /* The basic Syntax */
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12:11:37 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70866&oldid=70865 * Noxomix * (+497) /* The basic Syntax */
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12:13:08 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70867&oldid=70864 * RocketRace * (+581) Begin the runtime section. (Due to an interruption, I will continue this later.)
12:16:28 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70868&oldid=70866 * Noxomix * (+247) /* The basic Syntax */
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12:47:17 <arseniiv> hi hi a kind is kind, but a type isn’t that type
12:49:42 <arseniiv> hm I might have used “kinds” and “types” as I initially planned but then I thought that “types ... that type” would be for some reason ungrammatical, poor me
12:52:12 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: there was a conversation about 20:21 UTC yesterday about kinds and types and I’ve read it only now :D
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13:30:26 <kspalaiologos> at first it sounded like the networks gonna collapse
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14:02:41 <esowiki> [[User:Palaiologos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70869&oldid=67362 * Palaiologos * (+60) link to seed article
14:04:37 <esowiki> [[User:Palaiologos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70870&oldid=70869 * Palaiologos * (+118) irc nickname
14:05:18 <esowiki> [[User talk:Palaiologos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70871&oldid=67378 * Palaiologos * (-1460) clear my talk page
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15:07:17 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: maybe fizzie knows?
15:08:02 <spruit11> Not even sure I added myself or my language Egel.
15:09:09 <arseniiv> kritixilithos: hi, if you don’t logread (as I am lazy to do very often, for example), there are some answers to your yesterday’s questions about kinds, approx. 21:00 UTC yesterday, and later
15:10:27 <kritixilithos> arseniiv: i've seen them, i even replied to b_jonas today, it seems you are the one who hasn't been logreading :P
15:13:58 <arseniiv> kritixilithos: yep I’m too late and I definitely hadn’t logread, I agree
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15:29:40 <esowiki> [[User:Icecream17]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70872&oldid=70829 * Icecream17 * (-6032) decided to put it in an article
15:35:41 <esowiki> [[Stopwatch]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70873 * GDavid * (+1877) Created page with "Stopwatch is a language invented by [[User:GDavid]]. == Program structure == A Stopwatch program consists of function declarations. The Main function is called on start. ==..."
15:36:45 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70874&oldid=70847 * GDavid * (+16) Stopwatch
15:47:00 <esowiki> [[Stopwatch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70875&oldid=70873 * GDavid * (+715) Examples
15:47:48 <esowiki> [[Stopwatch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70876&oldid=70875 * GDavid * (+33) sleep N return value
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16:17:24 <zzo38> I added another card (called "Master Shuffler") to my Un-cards file.
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16:33:49 <zzo38> How to access a SQLite database from a standalone PostScript program? (There is %pipe% to communicate with other programs, but it is only a one way pipe.)
16:41:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: you probably need to write an extension to the postscript interpreter in a way that's dependent on the specific interpreter for that
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16:49:16 <esowiki> [[Powder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70877&oldid=65461 * Areallycoolusername * (+0)
17:01:10 <zzo38> It is one thing I thought that should be done in level 4 PostScript, to define a C API for extensions, and a dlopen operator which takes a filename and dictionary, and then the extension writes into the dictionary when loaded (the dlopen operator would not be allowed in safe mode, although if you use it before switching to safe mode, the extension that is already loaded is still usable).
17:02:56 <zzo38> Other things I thought should be done in level 4 PostScript is some of the stuff currently specific to Ghostscript, such as dictionaries in binary object format and the makeimagedevice operator and the %pipe% file, and also to make copypage to depend on the device whether or not it will erase the contents of the page, and a few other things.
17:06:16 <zzo38> Ghostscript does not support dynamic extensions; all extensions must be compiled in.
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17:18:46 <zzo38> (Ghostscript itself is usable as a dynamic extension for other programs, though.)
17:20:33 <kspalaiologos> I wonder how much overhead does yacc add compared to a hand-written parser
17:20:45 <kspalaiologos> because I'm not entirely sure is writing own parser worth it
17:23:12 <zzo38> It might depend on what syntax you need to parse, perhaps.
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17:33:00 <esowiki> [[Flurry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70878&oldid=70832 * Challenger5 * (+176)
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18:10:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Uriel * New user account
18:19:48 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70879&oldid=70841 * Uriel * (+100)
18:24:58 <esowiki> [[Bunk bed]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70880 * Hakerh400 * (+7344) +[[Bunk bed]]
18:25:02 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70881&oldid=70874 * Hakerh400 * (+15) +[[Bunk bed]]
18:25:05 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70882&oldid=70751 * Hakerh400 * (+15) +[[Bunk bed]]
18:28:27 <esowiki> [[Bunk bed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70883&oldid=70880 * Hakerh400 * (-4) /* Syntax */
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19:00:50 <esowiki> [[4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70884&oldid=70059 * Uriel * (-94) Edited descriptions (with formatting), added language box panel, added implementation
19:05:40 <kspalaiologos> zzo38, +50 and more rules, small amount of symbols, rules are usually at most 3 deep
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19:08:43 <esowiki> [[4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70885&oldid=70884 * Uriel * (+87)
19:09:03 <esowiki> [[4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70886&oldid=70885 * Uriel * (-34)
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19:11:09 <esowiki> [[4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70887&oldid=70886 * Uriel * (+21)
19:16:12 <esowiki> [[4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70888&oldid=70887 * Uriel * (+26)
19:16:30 <esowiki> [[4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70889&oldid=70888 * Uriel * (+1)
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19:28:35 <Sgeo> Saw a rumor about a famous mathematician dying from COVID-19. Not sure if I should repeat.
19:28:57 <esowiki> [[Tac Toe Toe Grow]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70890 * Icecream17 * (+8529) New language! (Copied from user page and edited)
19:30:09 <imode> which mathematician.
19:30:32 <Sgeo> https://twitter.com/CardColm/status/1249038195880341505
19:31:27 <Sgeo> https://twitter.com/alexbellos/status/1249044593817116673
19:32:20 <imode> doesn't seem to be reliable..?
19:33:22 <imode> hoping it isn't reliable.
19:33:56 <HackEso> ‘Life,’ said Marvin, ‘don't talk to me about life.’
19:35:09 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Icecream17 * moved [[Tac Toe Toe Grow]] to [[Tic Tac Toe Grow]]: How in the world did I make this mistake????
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19:52:36 <esowiki> [[Promo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70893&oldid=61602 * Structuresend * (-256)
19:56:41 <esowiki> [[Flurry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70894&oldid=70878 * Challenger5 * (-101)
19:57:17 <esowiki> [[Flurry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70895&oldid=70894 * Challenger5 * (-2)
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20:48:47 <esowiki> [[User:Uriel]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70896 * Uriel * (+180) Created page with "Hi! I'm Uriel. I'm mostly active on [https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/users/65326/uriel PPCG]. I wrote the [https://github.com/urielieli/py-four py-four] interpreter for [..."
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21:19:07 <zzo38> Do you like my "Master Shuffler" Un-card?
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21:26:40 <zzo38> You can shuffle one or more of: target planeswalker or player, target player's mana pool, your hand, each planar deck and each scheme deck, the layer system, and/or all timestamps.
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00:06:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User talk:Palaiologos]]": Author request: normally user talk pages aren't deleted, but no relevant warnings/communication from others was present
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00:08:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Tac Toe Toe Grow]]": redirect from unlikely misspelling (notwithstanding that it was created due to that misspelling)
00:14:55 <ais523> I find the HTML specification really creepy and unnatural
00:15:04 <ais523> it starts off innocently enough
00:15:19 <ais523> but after a while, you realise that it is an entire web browser written in pseudocode
00:15:29 <esowiki> [[MiniUSPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70897&oldid=30402 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
00:15:40 <ais523> with corrections for bugs, a library system, and similar other things you would find in programming languages
00:15:45 <ais523> (but you can't run it because it's pseudocode)
00:16:32 <ais523> ofc programs are substantially shorter in pseudocode because you can just gloss over details, invent builtins on the fly, and the like
00:20:29 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, including a lot of compatibility stuff for old and broken webpages (though not the MSIE compatibility stuff), defining all the DOM interface for javascript, except you have to add the CSS spec because that's in a separate document
00:22:08 <b_jonas> plus I guess the SVG and MathML spec if you want to support those
00:24:53 <esowiki> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70898&oldid=54427 * LegionMammal978 * (-1763) fixed code blocks
00:25:57 <zzo38> I think that some things could be implemented differently, possibly subject to user configuration. Some things should be implemented different anyways, depend on view modes, etc.
00:42:04 <esowiki> [[Minkolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70899&oldid=49842 * LegionMammal978 * (+93) added repo link
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01:12:52 <esowiki> [[Comefrom0x10]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70900&oldid=52432 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+0) /* Types */
01:39:22 <esowiki> [[Promo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70901&oldid=70893 * Structuresend * (-44)
02:03:54 <esowiki> [[Mom please get me so me zucchini from sho p]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70902&oldid=59419 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
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07:54:42 <int-e> `relcome Guest76489
07:54:45 <HackEso> Guest76489: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
08:01:50 <Guest76489> who here is in the process of applying to unemployment
08:04:23 <myname> I never knew you need to apply in order to be unemployed
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08:16:23 <name> myname I hope you're having a good Sunday morning! happy easter
08:19:33 <name> anyone playing any video games right now?
08:22:37 <name> which one are you reading now?
08:23:37 <int-e> name: Too many. Apocalyptic Horseplay is a recent addition.
08:24:44 <kspalaiologos> but I'm waiting for Bannerlord to be stable so I can pirate^H^H^H^H^H^H buy it obviously
08:28:19 <int-e> name: basically webcomics work like this https://xkcd.com/609/ on a somewhat slower scale.
08:34:27 <name> kspalaiologos M&B warband kind of reminds me of Blade and Sorcery at first glance
08:35:18 <kspalaiologos> you're missing the strategical POV, the map screen
08:36:31 <int-e> Sgeo_: https://mobile.twitter.com/SamWangPhD/status/1249132655737790464?p=p <-- getting closer to confirmation :-(
08:37:26 <name> int-e if you're into webcomics, I just started working with some friends on one as a way to raise money to build an installation for burning man 2020
08:37:29 <myname> int-e: imo, webcomics are not _that_ likely to link to other interesting ones
08:37:39 <int-e> (TheGuardian picked it up)
08:37:40 <name> I'll let you. know how it goes
08:37:48 <int-e> myname: You'd be surprised.
08:38:25 <name> the apocalyptic horseplay one looks nice. I just read a few pages
08:38:44 <int-e> myname: IME, if a webcomic author lists 10 comics that they like, and you like their stuff, you'll like 2 or 3 of those comics as well.
08:39:46 <int-e> (Obviously there are duplicates... but it's still a growing pool.)
08:40:14 <name> oh xkcd is cute! I can see why you're into webcomics. just in the few suggestions you sent, I'm already spiraling deeper into the void
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09:45:05 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70903&oldid=70868 * Noxomix * (+549)
09:46:41 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70904&oldid=70903 * Noxomix * (+66) /* Examples */
09:54:13 <esowiki> [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70905&oldid=70904 * Noxomix * (+717)
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10:06:36 <esowiki> [[Bunk bed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70906&oldid=70883 * Hakerh400 * (+10) /* Comparing mappings */ fix typos
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10:16:21 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70907&oldid=70867 * RocketRace * (+15) Easier searchability
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11:01:54 <int-e> I've found another use for unshare() :-) http://paste.debian.net/1139892/
11:13:18 <olsner> hm, so that has to be setuid to be allowed to unshare? always seemed counterintuitive that sandboxing requires *additional* privileges... anything should be allowed to go further down its own rabbithole
11:14:16 <b_jonas> olsner: you can use most of clone unprivilaged
11:14:22 <b_jonas> and do some sandboxing for it
11:14:47 <b_jonas> but I think you need to be root to set up bridge network devices in the containing host, which is very useful for sandboxing
11:14:48 <int-e> b_jonas: oh, can I do that, hmm.
11:15:33 <b_jonas> olsner: anyway, that you can do sandboxing as user is a noble goal, and the Linux devs are trying to go there, but the fact is, it's really hard to get right, and we don't want to compromise the kernel with security bugs because of that, so it's going slow
11:16:08 <int-e> "Only a privileged process (CAP_SYS_ADMIN) can employ CLONE_NEWNET."
11:16:35 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, which make sense, you couldn't modify the network devices in the other namespace as non-root anyway
11:17:07 <b_jonas> in practice, you set up the sandbox with root privilages, then let the non-user access it
11:17:25 <int-e> I should probably learn about that. (At least set up a loopback device)
11:17:51 <b_jonas> int-e: sadly I don't know the details of sandbox network setup. I should learn about it some day.
11:18:19 <int-e> Yeah exactly my point, I don't know about it either.
11:18:25 <b_jonas> I guess start from (man 8 ip) and ask on irc
11:19:16 <int-e> There's also network_namespaces(7).
11:19:26 <olsner> makes sense that to e.g. bridge to a physical interface you'd need outside-system privileges, but it ought to be possible to e.g. set up an isolated sandbox and talk to it (e.g. do user-space port forwarding) without ever going "up" in privileges
11:20:22 <int-e> olsner: but why put all that policy into the kernel when you can write a userspace daemon to do all that
11:22:11 <int-e> (At the cost of messing up the process parenthood story.)
11:23:42 <int-e> Anyway, some day... and in the meantime I'll enjoy the 5 minute hack.
11:24:18 <int-e> b_jonas: Another starting point is the unshare command line tool, which supports at least some of the networking stuff.
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11:28:19 <HackEso> The password of the month is starving for attention.
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11:37:13 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70908&oldid=70907 * RocketRace * (+4990) Document YOU
11:50:57 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70909&oldid=68863 * IFcoltransG * (+626) Added a link to another esoteric discord server
12:21:26 <HackEso> bfgen? No such file or directory
12:21:34 <b_jonas> I think it's called bfasm and asmbf
12:22:20 <b_jonas> the one that generated the casino program? you haven't got the source code of that, so unless it put a doc comment into the compiled code, you won't know the name
12:23:02 <HackEso> genbf is /hackenv/bin/genbf
12:23:08 <HackEso> fold: invalid number of columns: '--help'
12:24:20 <b_jonas> maybe the wiki links to one
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12:44:29 <esowiki> [[PlusOrMinus 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70910&oldid=70796 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+294) /* Auto-formatting */
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12:48:46 <esowiki> [[PlusOrMinus 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70911&oldid=70910 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+157)
12:49:49 <esowiki> [[PlusOrMinus 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70912&oldid=70911 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* Resources */
13:00:53 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70913&oldid=70762 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) /* Languages */
13:20:50 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70914&oldid=70326 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+109)
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13:28:25 <int-e> b_jonas: Oh great. Interfaces are created via the netlink (more specifically rtnetlink) protocol... the tools (iproute2) are developed in tandem with the kernel so this area is underdocumented. In particular, there's an IFLA_INFO_KIND attribute which one can set to "veth" to create that kind of device that I believe is not documented at all.
13:29:04 <b_jonas> int-e: right. that's why the next step is to ask people on irc.
13:29:21 <b_jonas> but you still have to look at the docs first before that
13:33:10 <int-e> (Of course you can just execute the 'ip' tool with the right parameters in whatever namespace you want to manipulate.)
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13:34:05 <int-e> In any case, it can be figured out ... none of this is rocket science. :)
13:35:04 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70915&oldid=70913 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50)
13:35:12 <int-e> Reading the iproute2 sources is doable as well (that's how I found the IFLA_INFO_KIND thing in the first place... well, after also looking at the veth.c in the kernel sources and finding a reference to a "kind").
13:35:40 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70916&oldid=70915 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14)
13:35:55 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70917&oldid=70916 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-64) end test
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13:52:34 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70918&oldid=70914 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+620)
13:53:06 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * PythonshellDebugwindow * moved [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test]] to [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]]: another unnamed language
13:57:11 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70921&oldid=70919 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+436) /* Operators */
13:58:42 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70922&oldid=70921 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+87) /* Operators */
13:58:51 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70923&oldid=70922 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Examples */
13:59:10 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70924&oldid=70923 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Examples */
13:59:23 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70925&oldid=70924 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* Operators */
14:30:07 <esowiki> [[4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70926&oldid=70889 * Uriel * (+44) added memory system category
15:03:56 <tromp> int-e: i determined that the hanging/memory-hogging behaviour of BB(x) 35 is due to just a handful of terms
15:04:51 <tromp> so we can subject BB(35) to manual analysis
15:13:40 <tromp> in fact i have only 8 terms left to analyze
15:14:25 <tromp> including one candidate for beating 3^27
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15:28:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:NEGATOR]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70927 * LegionMammal978 * (+215) Created page with "The closing brace mentions a "condition you put immediately after it"; what is the syntax of such a condition? ~~~~"
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15:56:05 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70928&oldid=70925 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1089)
15:59:13 <esowiki> [[Ndef]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70929&oldid=36781 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
16:00:40 <esowiki> [[4]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70930&oldid=70926 * Ais523 * (+49) merely colon-linking to a category isn't enough to categorise, you have to add it to the category list too; also add [[Category:Implemented]] as well, while I'm here, because the page lists interpreters
16:07:47 <esowiki> [[NegaPosi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70931&oldid=8033 * LegionMammal978 * (+100) fixed links
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16:58:54 <ais523> huh, so it turns out that there's a practical use for the imp
16:59:25 <ais523> on early models of the IBM 1620, the operator manually entering and running an imp was the standard way to clear memory between programs
16:59:41 <ais523> I guess this is an argument for making the all-zeroes instruction an imp in a new processor design
17:00:01 <ais523> an imp is a machine code instruction that copies itself to the next memory location in memory
17:00:15 <ais523> so immediately after running, the next instruction now contains an imp too
17:00:34 <b_jonas> so it's a weird way to memset?
17:00:34 <ais523> it will inevitably end up filling all of memory unless it hits a page fault or some other thread overwrites it just as it's about to run
17:00:52 <ais523> well, I didn't think imps had any practical use
17:00:57 <ais523> but I was wrong, which is why I commented on it here
17:00:59 <b_jonas> but many machines already have copy instructions that you can use to fill memory
17:01:08 <b_jonas> as in memory copy instructions
17:01:10 <esowiki> [[Nine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70932&oldid=67039 * LegionMammal978 * (+173) added repo link and categories
17:01:30 <b_jonas> and they work on overlapping memory if you want to make many repeated copies of a pattern (even a single byte)
17:02:15 <b_jonas> and in the ones that don't, that's because there's a fast way based on normal instructions to do a block copy
17:02:28 <ais523> yes, but that's not great for zeroing all of memory because a) it'll end up overwiting itself at some point, b) it's likely to be more than a single instruction long
17:02:49 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, you zero all the memory other than that code instead
17:03:00 <ais523> I did some research into the fastest way to bulk-store memory on a modern processor, it appears to involve nontemporal writes of 128 bits at a time from multiple different source registers
17:03:14 <ais523> and that's a /lot/ of code
17:03:49 <b_jonas> ais523: so? why is that a problem. isn't this for zeroing memory to make sure that no information from before remains? just make sure when you load that block of code that it doesn't have holes, so nothing but that code remains.
17:03:51 <ais523> trying to get that to zero itself might be possible, though, because each loop iteration zeroes a huge amount of memory, so you could probably make the last iteration of the loop overwrite the entire program front-to-end
17:04:06 <ais523> b_jonas: I guess, but it's inelegant
17:04:16 <b_jonas> but if you want to zero that, you could use a slower but smaller zeroing method to zero that
17:04:46 <ais523> actually, I can see one potential issue with using an imp to zero memory: because all of memory is now filled with an imp, it guarantees that the entire state of the running program will be wiped out if the instruction pointer ever goes out of bounds, making it hard to debug what happened
17:05:17 <ais523> (unless your program counter doesn't wrap)
17:05:52 <b_jonas> ais523: also that only works if the memory that you want to write forms a single solid contiguous segment, which is not always true in machines with bank changing or ROM or something
17:06:20 <b_jonas> it doesn't need a page fault, just a ROM that ignores writes
17:07:01 <APic> Does the Name „Imp“ come from Corewar?
17:07:01 <ais523> anyway, on a vaguely related topic: does anyone know of computer storage devices that are reasonably possible to obtain in modern times, that store data (and transmit it to the computer) in 3-bit or 6-bit chunks?
17:07:02 <b_jonas> or an unmapped memory area that ignores writes, in case of those old cpus that are in sync with the RAM
17:07:26 <b_jonas> ais523: does it have to be hardware? I can emulate such a thing in software
17:07:28 <ais523> six-channel paper tape would be an obvious choice but a) tape readers aren't readily available nowadays, b) six-channel is an uncommon size
17:07:55 <ais523> b_jonas: ideally yes; I can emulate it in software too, and was planning to, but if the software is itself stored on an 8-bit disk it doesn't fit the intended usecase
17:08:01 <b_jonas> I haven't heard of six-row paper tape
17:09:16 <ais523> I think 8-row was also used
17:09:21 <ais523> but yes, 6 was not a standard size
17:11:05 <b_jonas> ais523: on some floppy disk hardware, you could define a custom disk format that uses 6-bit bytes
17:11:24 <b_jonas> or 12-bit words or something
17:12:42 <ais523> I was wondering about reformatting a disk to use words that weren't 8 bits long
17:13:01 <ais523> I don't have that much of a grasp about how low-level reformatting of a disk (changing tracks, cylinders, etc.) works
17:13:12 <ais523> most of the "formatting" I'm aware of is actually file system creatino
17:14:19 <b_jonas> ais523: on modern floppy drives, yes, because the hardware floppy controller handles most of those low level ops. but on the Commodore 1541, the floppy drive that is used the most often used with the Commodore 64, there's a cpu and rom and small RAM in the floppy drive that allows the user to reprogram it,
17:15:20 <b_jonas> and the program that runs on the floppy drive handles individual low level bit read/write one by one (the cpu is fast enough for that), where the low level bits are such that you can't write more than three consecutive 0s or else it won't reliably read back or some such,
17:15:51 <b_jonas> so the floppy drive program encodes 4 logical bits to 5 of those hardware bits, and it decodes an entire sector of I think 256 bytes before it reads it to the computer / after it writes it to the computer
17:16:10 <ais523> ooh, maybe you need to reprogram the floppy drive firmware
17:16:15 <b_jonas> but programmers often reprogrammed the floppy drive because the default program in the RAM is very slow,
17:16:22 <ais523> actually figuring out how to write it is probably much harder tohugh
17:16:26 <b_jonas> which is why there's a lot of practical information on the web about how to reprogram it
17:16:58 <b_jonas> I don't know if anyone reprogrammed the drive to store 6-bit bytes, or how practical that is, because it's used with 8-bit computers
17:18:15 <b_jonas> on the PC, you can't change that part of the program, because the floppy controller handles that part of the decoding itself. you can still change some parts of the floppy format, but I believe not the part of how many bits a byte has.
17:19:00 <b_jonas> ais523: I think you can set the serial port of the PC to send and receive 6-bit bytes on a direct serial line, but that doesn't count as storage
17:20:05 <ais523> setfdprm appears to think in terms of bytes, not bits, so I guess so does Linux
17:20:15 <ais523> and probably PC hardware as a whole
17:20:30 <ais523> so I guess you'd need to do sixbit-to-byte translation in the drive firmware
17:23:53 <ais523> apparently the Amiga's floppy drive controller can be configured to any word size, that's "only" 30 years old
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17:30:59 <esowiki> [[Noit o' mnain gelb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70933&oldid=27090 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
17:36:03 <int-e> tromp: Hmm, looking at your criterion, I did re-discover that one myself in the meantime, with the same idea that ω-like terms are strict. (Pushed a more detailed proof.)
17:38:30 <ais523> hmm, there seem to be philosophical issues about how much data a disk can store
17:39:38 <ais523> with magnetic disk storage, there are physical limits to how densely you can pack transitions between 0s and 1s, but if you don't have any transitions for a sufficiently long time, it's difficult to read because you don't know where you are on the disk
17:40:06 <ais523> so, e.g., on a CD, every 8-bit byte of data is encoded as 17 bits on the disk
17:40:36 <int-e> tromp: I can't claim it's independent... you dropped a couple of hints on the channel.
17:40:41 <b_jonas> CD is rather different from magnetic storage though
17:41:04 <ais523> not really, you're right that it's optical rather than magnetic but much the same restrictions apply
17:43:20 <b_jonas> data CD has a lot more error correction codes than floppy disks, apparently mostly to survive scratches of the foil part of the CD
17:43:50 <ais523> ah right, error correction
17:44:02 <ais523> anyway, this leads to the philosophical question about just how large a file is
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17:44:35 <ais523> especially given that EOF needs to be encoded somehow
17:47:15 <esowiki> [[Nouse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70934&oldid=34796 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
17:48:19 <b_jonas> it's quite crazy just how few error correction old floppy disks have. it's usually just a one or two byte checksum per sector.
17:48:52 <b_jonas> and the checksum isn't even CRC, it's just a bytewise XOR checksum. wouldn't that lead to corrupted files that aren't detected?
17:49:04 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run-length_limited <-- oh, fancy, there are some prefix codes in there
17:49:54 <ais523> int-e: it wouldn't surprise me if optimal RLL codes /never/ had an integer number of bits per word
17:50:49 <int-e> well, nobody wants to implement an optimal code
17:51:21 <b_jonas> ais523: no, but they get pretty close. the code that the Commodore floppy uses encodes 4 bits to 5 physical bits, and there are 17 permissable codes for those 5 physical bits, of which 16 are used, IIRC
17:51:31 <ais523> int-e: it'd let you fit more data on your drive
17:51:45 <b_jonas> that's not optimal of course, because an optimal one would need to have much longer segments
17:51:58 <b_jonas> or some dependency between the adjacent chunks
17:52:11 <ais523> if you have a non-integer number of bits per word
17:52:19 <ais523> then I think you have dependency that lasts forever
17:52:28 <ais523> the last chunk on the disk might theoretically depend on the first chunk
17:52:38 <ais523> (assuming a perfect code)
17:52:56 <ais523> this would of course be bad for random-access writes, but might still be useful on a disk intended to be read-only
17:54:41 <ais523> hmm, maybe tape drives would be better for this than floppy disks
17:56:51 <b_jonas> even then you probably want units smaller than a whole disk. (it needn't be as small as the 256 byte sectors of course.) that doesn't lose you much with the encoding density if the chunks aren't too small.
17:58:30 <int-e> Actually the unit should probably be below a sector... to reduce latency.
17:58:48 <int-e> 256 byte sector? What hardware is that...
17:59:00 <b_jonas> int-e: no, it could be incrementally decodable
17:59:53 <int-e> b_jonas: Hmm, not reliably.
18:00:08 <b_jonas> int-e: 256 byte sectors for the default format for the Commodore 1541 floppy drive still, but I think also PC floppy drives in some of the lower density modes
18:01:50 <b_jonas> int-e: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_floppy_disk_formats
18:02:58 <b_jonas> hmm no, that page says that PC floppy disk has formats with sector sizes 128, 1024, and 512 bytes. funny.
18:03:29 <b_jonas> and the first two only for the big floppy disks, so mostly just 512 bytes per sector
18:03:45 <b_jonas> so the Commodore formats then
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18:14:08 <tromp> int-e: i'm glad to hear you find the new rule sound
18:19:13 <tromp> with the new rule, your BBx.hs will be able to examine all 35-bit terms except for some that follow this pattern:
18:19:19 <tromp> > toughtriples :: DB -> Bool
18:19:19 <tromp> > toughtriples (DBApp (DBLam (DBApp (DBApp (DBVar 0) (DBVar 0)) (DBVar 0))) (DBLam (DBLam (DBApp (DBVar 1) (DBApp (DBVar 1) _)))) ) = True
18:19:19 <tromp> > toughtriples _ = False
18:19:23 <lambdabot> Perhaps you need a 'let' in a 'do' block?
18:19:23 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘DB’
18:19:29 <lambdabot> Perhaps you need a 'let' in a 'do' block?
18:19:41 <int-e> lambdabot: woah, hold your horses
18:19:54 <int-e> tromp: this is a good argument against literate Haskell ;)
18:19:57 <tromp> ok, so pasting from literate Haskell is not the brightest idea:(
18:20:47 <tromp> it's terms like (\1 1 1) (\\2 (2 (???)))
18:21:12 <int-e> right, (\1 1 1) (\\2 (2 _))
18:21:43 <tromp> including our friend 3^3^3
18:21:44 <int-e> Oh is that the thing that explodes?
18:22:01 <tromp> and the inscrutable (\1 1 1) (\\2 (2 (1 2)))
18:22:03 <int-e> Makes sense, I guess.
18:22:12 <tromp> which could beat it
18:23:21 <kspalaiologos> possibly I may be having a brainfart right now, but I can't figure out one thing
18:23:29 <int-e> b_jonas: As far as I can see, the IBM BIOS had no function for querying the sector size... so from some point onwards everybody assumed 512 bytes.
18:23:38 <tromp> note the similarity with the BB 31 recordholder (\1 1) (\\2 (2 (1 2)))
18:23:42 <int-e> b_jonas: the PC one, I mean
18:23:58 <kspalaiologos> now if it contains a certain value, and I'll keep subtracting a certain value from it over and over again
18:23:59 <int-e> tromp: Yeah I noticed the similarity.
18:24:48 <tromp> \\2 (2 (1 2)) is the evil twin of \\2 (2 (2 1)) :-)
18:24:52 <int-e> kspalaiologos: check which of the value has more 0 bits at the end.
18:26:12 <int-e> ka = b (mod m) has a solution k if gcd(a, m) divides b. In this case, m is a power of 2, 2^n, and the gcd can be found by looking at the trailing 0 bits.
18:26:18 <b_jonas> int-e: is that for the floppy or for the hard disk?
18:27:25 <b_jonas> well having a uniform sector size is certainly convenient for software
18:31:58 <int-e> Hmm. INT 13 - HARD DISK - PS/1 and newer PS/2 - IDENTIFY DRIVE
18:32:20 <int-e> Okay, I'm confused here.
18:33:05 <int-e> Ah. Microsoft added extensions to INT 13? One of which allows to query the sector size.
18:35:09 <int-e> kspalaiologos: But yeah you're right, this is stored in the BPB (which I conveniently forgot about. It has been about 20 years since I actively knew this stuff...).
18:35:33 <int-e> My mistake was to look at INT 13 alone, but there is INT 1E - SYSTEM DATA - DISKETTE PARAMETERS
18:36:13 <kspalaiologos> I forgot which registers are they, but I'm 100% sure it contains data you need
18:36:43 <int-e> The BIOS is there so you don't have to do everything with in/out. :P
18:37:29 <zzo38> Does any modern PC include a programming environment in ROM? I think it ought to do, whether it is BASIC, Forth, or assembly language. This way the computer is usable even without an operating system.
18:38:38 <int-e> Back in reality, no it doesn't, unless you count the utilities for flashing a new BIOS.
18:41:01 <int-e> I prefer a computer in working order.
18:41:41 <int-e> This may sound extreme, but I prefer a computer in working order.
18:42:10 <int-e> I'm okay with it not running and Malbolge code though.
18:43:30 <kspalaiologos> I wonder could one smh find a vulnerability in the stock Malbolge interpreter
18:43:33 <int-e> Oh I have fond memories of a particular HDD failure. It was a 70MB MFM drive, no important data left on it (I think)... for which one of the address bits was broken.
18:44:00 <kspalaiologos> a week ago I ran my malware on an old DOS computer
18:44:02 <int-e> checkdsk & co. had a field day with it... and it took me some poking around to figure out just how broken it was :)
18:44:37 <int-e> mal(bolge soft)ware
18:45:11 <kspalaiologos> I may have discovered a piece of code back then that may make CRT monitors explode
18:46:18 <int-e> capacitors, blue smoke
18:46:59 <int-e> (You should not be able to blow up the CRT itself. But the high frequency circuit driving the beam... that's an entirely different story.)
18:47:07 <esowiki> [[Nyarlathotep]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70935&oldid=44425 * LegionMammal978 * (+24) /* External resources */ fixed link
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18:48:26 <int-e> I don't miss CRTs, except for one small thing...
18:48:37 <int-e> ...the psychedelic color effects that you could achieve with a magnet.
18:49:08 <int-e> But really, that's the only positive thing about them that I can remember :)
18:49:33 <int-e> Somebody should emulate it in an LCD. ;)
18:50:04 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:50:37 <int-e> I *have* seen a blown up capacitor that was responsible for the horizontal ray alignment in a monitor I used to have.
18:50:50 <zzo38> The good thing about CRT is that it works OK even if the resolution is wrong. Other than that, I think CRT is not as good as LCD.
18:51:18 <int-e> I repared that actually... later it totally lost the green beam. That I didn't fix... got a new monitor soon after.
18:51:40 <int-e> (I know that it's not the beam that's colored, obviously.)
18:52:27 <ais523> I'm not sure what specific component burns blue
18:52:32 <ais523> capacitor smoke is normally gray, in my experience
18:52:35 <int-e> "the face is typically made of thick lead glass so as to be highly shatter-resistant and to block most X-ray emissions"
18:52:38 <ais523> although maybe it depends on the type of capacitor
18:52:46 <int-e> I don't think the x-ray was a big issue in practice?
18:52:58 <int-e> ais523: I did not actually see the smoke :)
18:53:16 <ais523> kspalaiologos: re: deleting pages, it can't be done without an administrator verifying the deletion is appropriate/necessary, so that people can't unilaterally delete the history of content
18:53:27 <int-e> I guess blue is kind of the default color for smoke I've never seen myself, for no good reason.
18:53:30 <ais523> and especially for User talk: pages, which are often used to send people warnings, it's important to maintain a record
18:54:02 <kspalaiologos> so I wouldn't be surprised to see a capacitor emit blue smoke
18:54:04 <ais523> however, if there's no reason not to delete something and it's primarily the work of one person, we normally delete it on request unless there's a reason not to
18:54:25 <kspalaiologos> well my talk page is empty right now, deletion would be a cosmetical change but I don'
18:55:10 <kspalaiologos> this wiki isn't moderated like very carefully and amount of trolls is moderately low
18:55:21 <int-e> kspalaiologos: haha, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Degauss_in_progress.jpg
18:55:51 <int-e> (didn't expect to see a picture of that... on Wikipedia)
18:56:01 <ais523> wow, it only just crossed my mind that plenty of today's computer users will never have seen a degauss
18:56:09 <ais523> back when I was in school we used to degauss monitors for fun
18:56:19 <ais523> (which was ultimately good for the monitors too, of course)
18:57:03 <kspalaiologos> when CRT monitors were in use, I was just an average PC user
18:57:10 <ais523> most monitors of the time period had built-in degauss circuits
18:57:24 <ais523> so all you needed to do is to know which controls on the monitor triggered them
18:58:46 <ais523> you'd probably need a portable degaussing coil
18:58:50 <ais523> held close to the screen
18:59:36 <int-e> The picture is lacking the *foom* noise that went with the process though... let's check youtube.
18:59:58 <ais523> the noise of a degaussing is quite hard to describe
19:00:05 <ais523> kspalaiologos: apparently they were originally invented for use on warships
19:00:11 <ais523> so they'd have to be scaled down a lot to be used on a CRT monitor
19:00:37 <ais523> (warships benefit from being degaussed because many automated warship-detection devices used magnetism to do the detection)
19:00:53 <esowiki> [[OOo CODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70936&oldid=50071 * LegionMammal978 * (+36) /* External resources */ note
19:01:04 <kmc> 11:56 < ais523> back when I was in school we used to degauss monitors for fun
19:01:12 <kmc> and when you degaussed one monitor it would slightly mess up the one next to it
19:01:44 <kmc> and yeah, the Navy had a degaussing station in San Francisco
19:01:51 <kmc> you can still go look at the shack which used to contain it
19:05:10 <ais523> Wikipedia says that portable degaussing coils for use on monitors exist, but give no information about what they look like, what shape they are, etc.
19:06:55 <ais523> it strikes me that maybe ebay will have listings for them
19:07:42 <ais523> there seem to be multiple different designs, some circular, some more wand-like
19:08:13 <int-e> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy-T6m7F_aQ is similar to what I remember
19:08:48 <ais523> quite expensive nowadays, but that likely makes sense, I imagine there's not much call to manufacture new ones, so the supply will reduce faster than the demand
19:11:33 <b_jonas> when we first had TFT monitors, I liked CRTs because they had more vivid colors. but TFT monitors have improved since.
19:12:03 <b_jonas> and CRTs have other drawbacks, like a less sharp image and often flickering unless you drive it on a very high refresh rate
19:13:10 <ais523> CRTs often have lots of unnecessary additional circuitry for marketing reasons that slows their response time
19:13:17 <ais523> * TFTs, and later OLEDs
19:13:24 <ais523> it's the CRTs that typically don't
19:13:54 <ais523> I forget what technology modern screens typically use
19:14:00 <ais523> I think TFT is outdated by now
19:14:55 <ais523> hmm, maybe not, it was apparently used almost universally in 2013 but I can't find newer dat
19:15:25 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: "deletion would be a cosmetical change" => it got deleted hours ago I think
19:16:24 <b_jonas> ais523: "(warships benefit from being degaussed because many automated warship-detection devices used magnetism to do the detection)" => interesting, I didn't know this
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19:17:06 <ais523> hmm, aparently OLEDs didn't catch on due to having a few issues that were hard to work around
19:17:10 <ais523> so probably we still use TFT variants
19:17:12 <int-e> ais523: I think the TFT part is still up-to-date (as far as LCD displays are concerned); what has changed are the mechanisms by which the liquid crystals affect the light. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thin-film-transistor_liquid-crystal_display has a list. TN is traditional, IPS is probably most common
19:18:05 <ais523> there are weird points in the comparison, e.g. OLEDs use less power than TFTs to display black, but more to display white
19:18:29 <ais523> so which is more efficient depends on what images are being viewed
19:19:42 <b_jonas> ais523: I think that's because they use these stupid heuristics where if the image is mostly dark, they turn the brighness of the leds down, which makes sense for stuff like TV films, but less for a computer interface. You can't really do with the fluorescent back lighting that traditional TFTs use.
19:19:56 <b_jonas> wait, they use more power to display white? how?
19:20:48 <b_jonas> don't LEDs automatically take half or a third of the power of the most efficient non-LED lighting because they are more narrow spectrum, it's just that they also have worse spectrum which is annoying
19:20:57 <ais523> b_jonas: the lighting on a TFT is also LED, though
19:21:06 <ais523> so maybe OLEDs draw more power than regular LEDs
19:21:36 <ais523> also, TFTs use white LEDs for their backlighting
19:21:41 <ais523> whereas an OLED uses a mix of red/green/blue
19:21:44 <ais523> which may well make a difference
19:22:13 <ais523> hmm, I miss being able to use computer monitors with the backlight off
19:22:16 <b_jonas> but aren't white leds also a mix of different colored leds?
19:22:19 <ais523> it was never very practical, but it was sort-of doable
19:22:23 <b_jonas> the magic part is the blue leds
19:22:24 <ais523> b_jonas: two rather than three (blue + orange)
19:22:39 <b_jonas> and they still are worse in blue than other light sources
19:22:49 <ais523> one of my older laptops, with the backlight off the monitor worked just fine in direct sunlight
19:22:56 <ais523> (but you had to turn it back on again in dimmer lighting conditions)
19:23:00 <b_jonas> ais523: is that a color monitor?
19:23:09 <esowiki> [[Object oriented thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70937&oldid=54004 * LegionMammal978 * (-22) /* External resources */ fixed link
19:23:21 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah you just need a sufficiently reflective back surface i'd guess
19:23:26 * ais523 visualises a CRT laptop
19:23:38 <b_jonas> ais523: there are "portable computers" with CRT
19:23:49 <ais523> I think the word "luggable" is often used for those
19:23:51 <b_jonas> rather small CRTs, mind you
19:24:32 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Object oriented thue]] to [[Object oriented Thue]]: fix capitalization
19:24:32 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Talk:Object oriented thue]] to [[Talk:Object oriented Thue]]: fix capitalization
19:24:41 <Phantom_Hoover> what are the limits on the geometry of a CRT like anyway
19:25:00 <Phantom_Hoover> like there's obviously a maximum practical angle on the cone but idk what constrains it
19:25:59 <ais523> to get the deflection of the beam (which is what moves it within the cone) you need huge voltages
19:26:21 <ais523> also, the greater the deflection angle, the more accurate you have to be
19:27:16 <ais523> so you're trying to rapidly change the voltage on the deflector coils to a sequence of accurate, very high values, very rapidly
19:27:29 <ais523> and that's not very easy to do
19:27:54 <Phantom_Hoover> especially given the deflector coils are presumably inductors
19:28:37 <ais523> although in this case the back-emf is basically only a problem during power on and power off, and maybe hblank
19:29:05 <ais523> because you're changing the value in a set pattern and can allow for the inductance in advance
19:29:25 <ais523> (also, during hblank, the beam is turned off so it doesn't matter if the voltage doesn't change instantly or linearly)
19:30:51 <ais523> so a typical TV's deflector coils would be in the 1-10 kilovolt range
19:30:55 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLED#Efficiency_of_blue_OLEDs is one ingredient to the power efficiency puzzle
19:33:01 <int-e> Another, probably smaller, part is that perhaps there's more loss due to resistance between power supply and the actual LEDs. (All the energy emitted by the display has to be transported to some individual pixel, whereas for LCDs only a comparatively smaller power for driving the crystals plus the transistor has to be pushed to individual puzzles.)
19:33:18 <ais523> huh, according to Wikipedia, there are such things as CRT printers
19:33:29 <ais523> they electrostatically charged the paper
19:33:35 <int-e> But the absence of efficient blue OLEDs seems more significant.
19:33:35 <ais523> then it was placed next to electrostatically charged ink
19:33:37 <b_jonas> that would be a laser printer
19:33:52 <ais523> b_jonas: but with beta radiation, not electromagnetic radiation
19:34:04 <ais523> which I guess is the fundamental difference
19:34:21 <b_jonas> a laser printer electrostatically charges the paper, then discharges it with a laser beam anywhere where it wants to leave that white, then puts the paper next to the toner casette so it electrostatically attracts black ink
19:34:47 <b_jonas> that sounds rather impractical
19:34:51 <int-e> b_jonas: isn't it the drum that's being charged and discharged
19:34:57 <ais523> b_jonas: well it was abandoned in the 1960s
19:35:01 <ais523> so probably it was actually impractical
19:35:12 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't really know
19:35:21 <ais523> back then it took a while to discover the practical computer technologies, so they had to make do with eso computers until they found a practical way to do things
19:35:22 <int-e> superceded by better technology.
19:35:32 <b_jonas> I just use this nonsense as a customer
19:35:48 <int-e> b_jonas: I'm pretty sure it's the drum... otherwise buying the right paper for a laser printer would be a huge hassle.
19:36:06 <b_jonas> int-e: why? ordinary paper can be charge electrostatically
19:36:24 <Phantom_Hoover> crt printer still seems less out there than using crt for main memory which was totally mainstream for a while
19:36:32 <zzo38> There is no "c" in "supersedes"; even the specification for netnews articles says there is no "c" in "supersedes".
19:36:50 <int-e> b_jonas: charged and discharged reliably at 600 dpi?
19:37:11 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: you have to realise just how terrible the available read/write memory technologies were in the 1940s
19:37:17 <b_jonas> int-e: only discharged at that resolution, they're charged uniformly
19:37:28 <ais523> there were no good options, so all the bad options were explored quite comprehensively
19:37:30 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean i know about mercury delay lines so im well aware
19:37:39 <int-e> b_jonas: I can't refute the idea, but I'm pretty sure it's the drum... which is a more or less fixed part of the printer so much easier to control anyway :P
19:37:46 <ais523> when magnetic core memory was invented in 1955 it was a huge relief to everyone
19:37:54 <ais523> (even though it's /still/ a terrible storage technology by modern standards)
19:38:08 <b_jonas> ais523: no surprise, because SRAM became practical only with integrated circuits
19:38:48 <Phantom_Hoover> was there a period where using discrete transistors for RAM was practical actually...?
19:39:05 <ais523> I have an old book about computers which is post-transistor but pre-integrated-circuit
19:39:27 <ais523> it talks about the use of transistors for logic, and also for amplification (for use in analog computers)
19:39:47 <ais523> but assumes magnetic core as the only practical memory technology for storing large amounts of read/write data
19:40:10 <b_jonas> ais523: only? doesn't it assume magnetic disks are available for that?
19:40:24 <b_jonas> I know they're not random accessible
19:40:35 <ais523> I'm not sure if magnetic tape had been invented at the time
19:40:42 <ais523> but disks are way newer than the book
19:40:46 <b_jonas> oh, pre-integrated-circuit
19:41:05 <int-e> oh more crazy old memory devices... https://www.radiomuseum.org/forum/williams_kilburn_williams_kilburn_ram.html
19:41:08 <Phantom_Hoover> i legit didn't know tape was still widely used until i heard about it in training for my current job
19:41:20 <Phantom_Hoover> which is honestly somewhat surprising given how much general reading i do
19:41:32 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: it's _optical_ tape that's currently widely used, for high capacity backups
19:41:41 <b_jonas> magnetic tapes are no longer widely used
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19:42:20 <lambdabot> Variable not in scope: object :: t0 -> t1 -> terror: Variable not in sco...
19:42:29 <int-e> tapes are where the magneto-optical recording technology went, isn't it
19:42:29 <ais523> magnetic tape was still widely used for backups fairly recently
19:42:30 <b_jonas> and I don't think magnetic takes ever worked really well for digital data; they were used for analog data as in voice or video because the hardware is cheap, but the tape degraded too quickly
19:42:47 <ais523> (I'm not sure whether people would use "tar" for communicating with it, though!)
19:43:07 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah i think they're still the standard bulk archive medium in industry
19:43:17 <kspalaiologos> when a P/L is nondeterministic it's not the best idea to let it allow filesystem and stuff
19:44:03 <ais523> I get annoyed because most people interpret Thue's "nondeterministic" as "probabilistic"
19:44:13 <ais523> when I'm pretty sure it's nondeterministic in the CS theory sense, like a nondeterministic finite automaton
19:44:31 <Phantom_Hoover> i just read it as 'the choice of substitution is implementation-defined'
19:44:33 <ais523> this means that most existing Thue interps don't actually interpret it properly
19:45:08 <b_jonas> ais523: no, I think it's nondeterministic in the third sense, which is that the behavior is underspecified, interpreters choose whatever is the most convenient for them
19:45:12 <ais523> <Wikipedia> MIT wanted to charge IBM $0.02 per bit royalty on core memory.
19:45:35 <ais523> well, bear in mind that semi-Thue grammars were intended as a computational model
19:45:35 <b_jonas> not in the sense where it's probabilistic, nor in the sense where they theoretically find the one succeeding path among exponentially many failing paths
19:45:50 <Phantom_Hoover> the thue spec doesnt talk about that kind of branching execution anywhere, it's the parsimonious reading
19:46:07 <int-e> ais523: having worked in rewriting, I agree with what b_jonas said
19:46:13 <ais523> I'm trying to imagine where computer memories would be today if the royalty payments were 2¢ per bit
19:46:33 <Phantom_Hoover> also NFA semantics are kind of defined in terms of a machine accepting a language which makes no sense given thue's semantics
19:46:43 <int-e> which is why confluence is held in such high regard in the field because it largely says that the reduction strategy doesn't matter. (modulo non-termination issues)
19:46:53 <ais523> a modern computer would cost 80 billion dollars just in memory royalty payments alone
19:47:01 <ais523> (although maybe people would write more memory-efficient programs!)
19:47:18 <int-e> ais523: But maybe you'd also have a paycheck of corresponding size :P
19:47:41 <ais523> int-e: you think the problem would be solved using hyperinflation? that's ingenious, but would likely bring its own problems
19:48:41 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: <3
19:49:02 <b_jonas> I think it's But is it art that is nondeterministic in the theoretical CS
19:50:11 <ais523> b_jonas: yes BIIA? is CS-theory-nondeterministic
19:50:20 <ais523> and a few other languages like that
19:50:40 <ais523> most notably https://esolangs.org/wiki/Precognition, which I feel would be used much more if only I or someone else put in the necessary thought and time to implement it
19:51:02 <b_jonas> ais523: isn't that a patent royalty though, with the patent expiring in like 20 years?
19:51:10 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: Let's make that a love parade: ☙♡♥❣❤❥❦❧🂱🎔💓💔💕💖💗💘💞🖤😍
19:51:40 <ais523> b_jonas: assume the lawyers could figure out some way to extend it :-D
19:51:50 <ais523> (that isn't legally meant to be possible, but patent law is a mess)
19:52:06 <b_jonas> they could extend it to 30 years. that'd still have expired 30 years ago.
19:52:34 <b_jonas> the way to extend it is to make an improved version so people use that instead of the original one, right?
19:52:56 <b_jonas> like they could patent DRAM
19:53:17 <b_jonas> and maybe patent different variants of DRAM
19:53:33 <ais523> patent the version with the sense/inhibit wires combined
19:53:36 <b_jonas> only of course IBM didn't come up with those
19:53:38 <ais523> but only when the first patent is running out
19:54:11 <int-e> . o O ( degauss your core )
19:55:07 <ais523> int-e: that would basically just delete the entirety of memory, wouldn't it?
19:55:10 <Phantom_Hoover> int-e, its fucked up how there are like 1000 heart emojis but 0 emojis aboutr the boys being back in town
19:55:15 <b_jonas> though wait, isn't most of the RAM made in China these days, and patents don't work there?
19:55:16 <ais523> replacing its contents with ½ bits (which are somewhere between 0 bits and 1 bits)
19:55:29 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: it's a cruel world
19:55:43 <ais523> it's unclear what happens when a digital memory controller reads a memory cell with a value of ½
19:55:46 <int-e> b_jonas: of course they work if they want to sell the stuff abroad
19:56:00 <ais523> presumably it would be interpreted as either 0 or 1, but whether this is deterministic or not depends on the exact details of the circuitry, I expect
19:56:02 <int-e> b_jonas: China is now patenting more than the US though :P
19:56:13 <b_jonas> int-e: the question is not how much they're patenting
19:56:18 <b_jonas> the question is how patents are enforced
19:56:34 <Phantom_Hoover> now im no expert but i believe quantum computing is basically when all your bits split in half and they tell you the prime factors of everyones private keys
19:57:23 <int-e> b_jonas: ask the WIPO.
19:57:58 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: You didn't have to elaborate after "im no expert" ;)
19:58:26 <int-e> World "Intellectual Property" Organization
19:58:35 <int-e> (I think they prefer it without the quotes)
19:58:53 <ais523> you can put the quotes in other places too
19:58:59 <ais523> "World" Intellectual Property Organization
19:59:04 <ais523> World Intellectual Property "Organization"
19:59:09 <ais523> these are probably less accurate, but it's fun
19:59:19 <int-e> ais523: I like the former
19:59:50 <Phantom_Hoover> these frauds couldnt tell their picassos from their nabokovs
20:00:04 <b_jonas> World Intellectual "Property" Organization works too in some sense
20:00:10 <int-e> (because it is about the so-called "developed countries" exploiting the so-called "developing countries"
20:02:52 <int-e> fungot: where are you?
20:04:59 <kspalaiologos> with language server, linter, syntax checking, formatter, syntax highlighting and code completion
20:05:44 <int-e> . o O ( Don't blame Hillary for that one )
20:06:43 <ais523> I wonder how many brainfuck IDEs the world needs
20:06:50 <ais523> esotericide is probably enough by itself
20:07:01 <ais523> and now there's another one?
20:07:16 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: so this like plugs into MS visual studio?
20:08:36 <tromp> int-e: did you find Chaitin's thesis online?
20:08:53 <int-e> tromp: not recently
20:10:21 <arseniiv_> I like IDE plugins since some time now. A major IDE is usually well-debugged, functional etc., and to write it all from scratch? oh no. And usually the support for this or that language needs not as much work, for it to be done with quality, if writing it as a plugin for an existing IDE
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20:10:29 <tromp> the programs on https://int-e.eu/~bf3/AIT/ are not accompanied by the theorems they're proving
20:10:39 <arseniiv> I hadn’t written any plugins yet, though
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20:11:31 <int-e> tromp: the statements are in the notes.
20:11:43 <int-e> it's all very much preliminary
20:14:06 <kspalaiologos> arseniiv, a language server makes it easy to plug asm2bf to vscode for instance
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20:17:18 <ais523> kspalaiologos: I seriously looked into VS Code's language server / plugin architecture
20:18:11 <ais523> well, I really do like the idea of having a standard for communication between editors and programming language implementations
20:18:22 <ais523> I just really don't like the details of the Language Server Protocol
20:18:32 <imode> I don't need key combinations to pilot a car. this post was made by the nano gang.
20:18:55 <ais523> and the existence of a current standard that's bad is really frustrating, because it reduces the chance of getting a good standard (because you don't want two standards coexisting)
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20:22:18 <int-e> mediocre is the enemy of good?
20:22:40 <int-e> (It seriously is. I wonder whether it's something people commonly say.)
20:23:34 <b_jonas> int-e: people say it both ways
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20:24:08 <int-e> I do know the "perfect is the enemy of good" version is a thing.
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20:24:40 <ais523> every Language Server Protocol message must be prefixed by "Content-Length:", then a decimal number indicating the length, then two \r\n pairs, then a JSON object which contains the key/value pair "jsonrpc": "2.0"
20:24:58 <ais523> that's a crazy amount of overhead for every single message, much of it redundant
20:25:33 <ais523> also, this is the first time I've seen a string format which is somehow delimited and length-prefixed at the same time (the delimiter used to determine where the length ends)
20:25:44 <int-e> Does it specify a maximum length of the first line?
20:26:26 <ais523> nor is there a theoretical maximum length, because JSON allows arbitrary amounts of whitespace
20:26:28 <int-e> Content-Length: 00000000000000000000000000000000000000...0000000000000000042\r\n
20:26:52 <ais523> I wonder how VS Code would react to that
20:26:54 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah, there are HTTP clients that have bugs with stuff like that
20:27:08 <int-e> b_jonas: color me unsurprised
20:27:28 <arseniiv> :((( I hoped VS Code would be better than this, ow
20:27:36 <ais523> arseniiv: this isn't even the worst bit
20:27:40 <ais523> I can't remember what the worst bit was
20:27:47 <ais523> and am unsure whether I should keep reading the specification to rediscover it
20:27:51 <b_jonas> like they receive FFFFFFFFFF\r\n for chunked encoding chunk header, and they try to allocate terabytes of memory and crash
20:29:01 <int-e> ais523: I hope what's inside is actuall a json-rpc message at least.
20:29:27 <ais523> int-e: it's a compatible format, so yes
20:29:41 <int-e> (which mandates that version field)
20:29:51 <Sgeo__> https://dailyvoice.com/new-jersey/mercer/obituaries/covid-19-kills-renowned-princeton-mathematician-game-of-life-inventor-john-conway-in-3-days/786461/
20:29:52 <ais523> (it uses a subset of json-rpc, but defines the API in such a way that the remaining functionality could never be used)
20:30:11 <Sgeo__> (Wikipedia considers this source sufficient)
20:31:18 <imode> it's been confirmed? damn..
20:31:23 <int-e> Sgeo__: still based on the tweets we've already seen it seems
20:32:03 <esowiki> [[Omnifuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70942&oldid=44612 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
20:32:11 <b_jonas> another great Mathematician lost after Jiří Matoušek, Marvin Minsky, and Raymond Smullyan
20:32:37 <int-e> imode: Well, there's a tweet by a Princeton guy who presumably has first-hand information, so there isn't too much doubt.
20:33:15 <int-e> imode: But the article does not indicate any information beyond that.
20:33:21 <imode> if it turns out to be the same thing as 2015 it's gonna be hilarious.
20:33:35 <int-e> I'm expecting an update at https://www.math.princeton.edu/ next week.
20:33:37 <ais523> what happened in 2015?
20:33:51 <imode> his death was reported, and he was like "uh, I'm still here."
20:34:14 <int-e> But that was April 1st.
20:34:25 <imode> ah. forgot the date.
20:34:30 <FireFly> also, not during a pandemic
20:34:36 <Phantom_Hoover> don't really see how an obituary could've appeared with details like him getting a fever and dying in 3 days without being deliberately made up whole cloth
20:35:22 <Phantom_Hoover> wait lol this means he was about the same age as kenny rogers
20:35:29 <int-e> Not the first story of covid-19 killing old people quickly (and without severe symptoms) that I've read these days.
20:35:52 <imode> wonder what secrets he kept in his head.
20:36:19 <ais523> well, I hope this story is made up, at least; jokes in bad taste are bad, but people dying is worse
20:36:48 <imode> it's starting to get harder to deny that he's dead. here's hoping he's not and we have a laugh about it.
20:37:24 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: ordinary people. not ones like Conway.
20:37:32 <arseniiv> imode: maybe whether the Euler—Mascheroni γ is rational or not
20:37:41 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: 82 acturally
20:38:24 <int-e> 81 would have been smoother
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21:06:10 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Owhelgossip]] to [[OwhelGossip]]: fix capitalization
21:06:10 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Talk:Owhelgossip]] to [[Talk:OwhelGossip]]: fix capitalization
21:10:08 <esowiki> [[Indent]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70947 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4914) Named after function blocks
21:10:11 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70948&oldid=70928 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2354) this language?
21:11:02 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70949&oldid=70917 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Languages */
21:11:25 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70950&oldid=70881 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* I */ Indent
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21:35:17 <esowiki> [[Owl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70951&oldid=55994 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
21:36:56 <esowiki> [[OwoScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70952&oldid=60044 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
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21:41:27 <esowiki> [[P]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70953&oldid=11661 * LegionMammal978 * (+38) /* External resources */ fixed link
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21:49:21 <esowiki> [[PHL 1.0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70954&oldid=53786 * LegionMammal978 * (+78) fixed links
22:08:07 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Pac]] to [[PAC]]: fix capitalization
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22:23:35 <esowiki> [[Parenthetic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70957&oldid=32099 * LegionMammal978 * (+0) fixed capitalization based on repo
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22:28:34 <b_jonas> https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/life-2 SMBC did an obituary strip already
22:28:44 <b_jonas> we'll see what xkcd posts a day from now
22:47:35 <b_jonas> https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=4732 obituary by Scott Aaronson
22:52:24 <b_jonas> comments section has reactions by other people
22:52:51 <b_jonas> also https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2020/04/12/john-conway/
22:57:35 <esowiki> [[Pile.js]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70958&oldid=46341 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
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23:11:02 <b_jonas> should we do something to https://esolangs.org/wiki/John_Horton_Conway ?
23:18:08 <int-e> well, the obvious is -> was.
23:21:03 <kmc> that's sad
23:27:41 <int-e> tromp: (\1 1 1) (\\2 (2 (1 2))) is not a winner, it has a normal form of size 4186155666, which the reduction engine in the blc tool can actually compute in a few minutes.
23:28:45 <int-e> > 3^27 / 4186155666
23:29:14 <int-e> > (6*3^27+5) / 4186155666 -- small margin
23:29:31 <int-e> > (5*3^27+6) / 4186155666
23:31:23 <int-e> tromp: which is disappointing because I spent quite some effort on working with smaller terms, only to find that it was all manageable from the outset.
23:31:51 <esowiki> [[HaltJS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70959&oldid=69384 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0)
23:32:19 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70960&oldid=70949 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13)
23:33:05 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70961&oldid=70950 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* H */
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23:53:17 <esowiki> [[Pointer-ng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70962&oldid=45230 * LegionMammal978 * (+20) fixed title
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00:02:33 <shachaf> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imquk_3oFf4 is pretty impressive.
00:06:14 <esowiki> [[Talk:Pointless.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70963 * LegionMammal978 * (+384) Created page with "It might be a good idea to call this "Pointless (Qpliu)" or something to make it more explicit that the language name does not include a literal period. (Potentially, Pointl..."
00:30:45 <zzo38> Does someone play Magic: the Gathering with draft and duplicate sealed both together?
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00:35:55 <esowiki> [[Printf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70964&oldid=68188 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
00:45:39 <esowiki> [[Probie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70965&oldid=69686 * LegionMammal978 * (-8) fixed link
00:48:13 <zzo38> One idea I thought of for Magic: the Gathering, is there is meld to make a single object from two objects, which are then two objects again when it leaves the battlefield, so I thought the other way would be something that causes the card to become two objects once it enters the battlefield, and then moving either or both of them causes it to become a single object again.
00:51:34 <zzo38> That is even more confusing, I think, but perhaps rules can be written which can work.
00:55:04 <zzo38> I thought, each half can have different characteristics, timestamps, controller, counters, status, damage, etc, but never different owners or zone.
01:01:24 <esowiki> [[PyText?!.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70966&oldid=53077 * LegionMammal978 * (+17) fixed code block
01:08:09 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Q-Bal]] to [[Q-BAL]]: fix capitalization
01:08:40 <esowiki> [[Q-BAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70969&oldid=70967 * LegionMammal978 * (+0) fixed capitalization
01:09:39 <zzo38> The problem is in case two effects conflict in which zone they are trying to move the two halfs to.
01:15:06 <zzo38> But, I think there are solutions to this too. One is the case of replacement effects, in which case the normal rules for replacement effects apply. The other case is if an effect tries to move one half to one zone and the other have to another zone, then it moves to the first zone, and the other half is no longer in the battlefield so the effect fails to find it and fails to move it.
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01:32:02 <esowiki> [[QKAS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70970&oldid=45919 * LegionMammal978 * (+54) fixed links
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01:58:10 <esowiki> [[Qwertyuiopasdfghjkl;vb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70971&oldid=56020 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
02:00:59 <Sgeo__> What file formats allow for one file that can be read in multiple formats?
02:14:10 <zzo38> Can you explain better what you mean, perhaps?
02:19:27 <ais523> Sgeo__: you mean like a polyglot?
02:19:53 <ais523> the main restriction is that the two formats can't require conflicting bytes at the same byte position (e.g. magic numbers that clash)
02:20:01 <Sgeo__> Yes, like a file format polygot, png and something else for instance. I copuld have sworn I saw one in a book about web securit
02:20:22 <ais523> normally, if there isn't something that obviously blocks it like that, you can make it work
02:20:38 <ais523> I vaguely remember that zip has its header at the end, so zip/something polyglots are common
02:21:38 <shachaf> Windows PE files don't have their header at the beginning, if I remember correctly?
02:21:41 <ais523> oh wow this format is stupid
02:22:06 <ais523> the zip file header comes at the end of the file, but its last field is free text (length-prefixed), it's variable length, and the header is at the start
02:22:19 <ais523> this implies among other things that it's possible to polyglot zip with itself without violating the format
02:22:22 <ais523> s oyou get an ambiguous zip file
02:23:13 <ais523> shachaf: there are two headers, one is the "MZ" magic number that has to go at the start but just indicates a DOS/Windows executable in general, there's a second header at a fixed offset that clarifies what sort of executable
02:23:32 <zzo38> You could have PNG and ZIP together; I have done that.
02:23:47 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe the MZ is still required, which would make sense.
02:24:04 <shachaf> But I vaguely remember something about a PE polyglot of some sort.
02:24:18 <ais523> "MZ" is probably short enough to work into a polyglot with something else
02:24:24 <ais523> source code, for example
02:24:53 <ais523> oh wow, could you create source code that compiles into itself?
02:24:56 <ais523> a sort of compile-time quine
02:25:19 <shachaf> Treating the compiler as an interpreter.
02:26:05 <esowiki> [[Rand.Next()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70972&oldid=31579 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
02:26:18 <shachaf> I suspect it wouldn't be possible with typical architectures and languages.
02:26:18 <ais523> well, you could go further and make the resulting executable print itself when actually run, too
02:26:46 <ais523> the problem is that languages have a fixed executable stub, normally, which clearly isn't valid source code
02:26:58 <ais523> at least if we're talking about Windows .exe
02:27:11 <ais523> and I'm not sure what sort of linker magic you'd need to replace it
02:27:17 <ais523> .com would be a lot easier, yes
02:27:21 <zzo38> COM format DOS programs do not have MZ at the beginning; it is x86 instructions.
02:27:45 <shachaf> But even that doesn't sound very feasible with most languages.
02:28:11 <ais523> you just need to start a comment in one or the other language as soon as possible
02:29:30 <ais523> bleh, '/' isn't a valid machine code instruction on x86
02:29:42 <ais523> .com is 32-bit, though, it might be valid there
02:30:50 <shachaf> Hmm, https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/das
02:30:53 <ais523> but "/*" corresponds to DAS followed by the first byte of a SUB instruction
02:32:06 <ais523> actually we can't, short of inline asm
02:32:14 <ais523> but I guess inline asm is acceptable in a challenge like this
02:32:27 <ais523> or defining main as raw machine code, I guess
02:32:37 <shachaf> I thought your input would be assembly in the first place.
02:32:50 <ais523> if very system-specific C
02:35:02 <ais523> aww, I have a 16-bit compiler on this system but it seems to be missing the appropriate libraries to compile to DOS .com
02:35:22 <ais523> I guess the next question is "why do I have a 16-bit C compiler on this system" but I assume there was a reason at the time
02:36:01 <ais523> it takes K&R C as input; again I'm not entirely sure why
02:36:08 <ais523> but in my test program I had to correct "int main(void)" to "int main()"
02:36:28 <HackEso> 0: 3b 00 cmp eax,DWORD PTR [rax]
02:36:33 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$1" > /tmp/asm.s; for o in ',' '-msyntax=intel -mnaked-reg,-M intel'; do if as ${o%,*} /tmp/asm.s -o /tmp/asm.o 2>>/tmp/asm.err; then objdump ${o#*,} -d --insn-width=20 /tmp/asm.o | sed -e "1,/0000000000000000/d" | perl -pe 'if (/^\s*(\w+:)\s*((?:\w\w )+)\s*(\S.*)$/) { ($a,$b,$c) = ($1,$2,$3); $_ = "$a $b ".($c =~ s/\s+/ /rg)."\n"; }'; exit; fi; done; cat /tmp/asm.err
02:37:03 <ais523> shachaf: you want most of the machine code program to be inside a string literal or comment from the point of view of the asm, and most of the asm to be goto'd over from the machine code program
02:37:29 <shachaf> I was thinking of ; comments in an assembler.
02:37:52 <shachaf> It's easy enough if your language allows unprintable characters in comments, which I was thinking it wouldn't for some reason.
02:39:55 <ais523> that depends on the lexer more than anything else
02:40:07 <ais523> many languages even allow unprintables in string literals
02:43:42 <esowiki> [[Redivider]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70973&oldid=25372 * LegionMammal978 * (+36) /* External resources */ fixed link
02:48:29 <zzo38> There is different assembly language for different computer and also different assembly language for the same computer too.
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03:00:37 <esowiki> [[Revomer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70974&oldid=20094 * LegionMammal978 * (+50) /* External resources */ fixed links
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03:11:49 <Sgeo__> Not sure I understand the .zip header thing. Can I have another format's magic at the end still?
03:12:10 <Sgeo__> WorldsPlayer .world files always begin with PERSISTER Worlds, Inc.
03:12:16 <Sgeo__> and end with END PERSISTER
03:14:27 <zzo38> Sgeo__: I don't know about ZIP. What I do know though is that you can append a ZIP archive to another file.
03:18:55 <Sgeo__> Turns out WorldsPlayer doesn't actually read past END PERSISTER. Thank you zzo38
03:21:46 <esowiki> [[Rflct]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70975&oldid=37107 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
03:22:56 <Sgeo__> zzo38, you're saying this should result in a valid zip? cat WorldsPlayer-956.world WorldsPlayer-956.zip > WorldsPlayer-9567.zip
03:24:07 <zzo38> Yes, although it is possible that some programs might not recognize it. It also might not work if the code that identifies the beginning of a ZIP file is found somewhere inside the WorldsPlayer file (it is "PK\x03\x04")
03:26:09 <Sgeo__> That's not the case here, so why isn't it opening
03:26:49 <Sgeo__> Oh maybe because what you said
03:27:28 <zzo38> Another possibility might be that the index at the end of the file requires absolute offsets, although I don't know whether or not that is the case.
03:28:16 <zzo38> But I don't think so; I seem to remember I have once concatenated a PNG and ZIP together and was able to open it with either a PNG or ZIP program just fine.
03:31:23 <ais523> <Sgeo__> Not sure I understand the .zip header thing. Can I have another format's magic at the end still? ← yes, the last field of the .zip header (which goes at the end of the file) is "comment", which gives you room to stick another magic number in there
03:31:58 <ais523> also, the .zip file header references other parts of the file relative to the /start/ of the file, so a pure concatenation won't work
03:32:10 <Sgeo__> ...how did unzip work?
03:32:18 <ais523> you can append to a .zip file without rewriting the first part of the file, but that requires small changes to the second part
03:32:34 <zzo38> Maybe I misremembered; I don't know
03:32:38 <ais523> Sgeo__: as far as I can tell from the specification, the format is ambiguous; you can write one file that's valid as a zip file in two different ways
03:32:45 <ais523> so presumably unzip has to pick one arbitrarily
03:32:46 <esowiki> [[Rogex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70976&oldid=70840 * LegionMammal978 * (-181) /* Interpreter */ fixed code block
03:33:23 <zzo38> O, maybe different implementations work differently. That is also who I was unable to unzip a PDF/ZIP combination file with one program but another program worked, I suppose.
03:35:42 <Sgeo__> warning [WorldsPlayer-9567.zip]: 2438 extra bytes at beginning or within zipfile
03:35:42 <Sgeo__> (attempting to process anyway)
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03:59:17 <esowiki> [[Cool]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70977&oldid=66898 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+31)
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04:36:16 <esowiki> [[Underload/Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70978&oldid=65919 * CatIsFluffy * (-7) This is a little embarrassing (up to 11 verified optimal under 1000 steps and 4998 stack characters
04:46:16 <esowiki> [[Underload/Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70979&oldid=70978 * CatIsFluffy * (-14) Trivial improvements
04:46:50 <esowiki> [[Underload/Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70980&oldid=70979 * CatIsFluffy * (-2) I swear this is the last one of this round
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04:57:03 <hashtar> does anyone have a knowledge about angels pls help me!
04:58:42 <hashtar> aaaaa neeed knowledge about two specific angels
04:58:55 <hashtar> and a voice in my head a man/woman voice speaking to me from depth
04:59:58 <hashtar> step two forward and three left and own down to the right
05:00:19 <hashtar> thats called the flash of lights
05:01:30 <esowiki> [[Underload/Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70981&oldid=70980 * CatIsFluffy * (-1) Sorry
05:01:48 <esowiki> [[Underload/Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70982&oldid=70981 * CatIsFluffy * (-2) Not this again
05:05:10 <HackEso> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.
05:07:10 <esowiki> [[Underload/Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70983&oldid=70982 * Ais523 * (+37) cat; the category is arguably misnamed but it's our usual category for things like this
05:34:39 <zzo38> I don't have knowledge about angels, and I doubt many people here do, nor do I understand what you are talking about.
05:35:10 <zzo38> (You could try EFnet or DALnet, like the message from HackEso says, I suppose. Maybe they know, and if they don't know either, then I don't know who to ask; sorry.)
05:36:31 <zzo38> Is anyone think something about my idea I mentioned about the Magic: the Gathering? I thought to call it "fission", so, it is a fission card.
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08:09:14 <kspalaiologos> "Welcome to the international hatchery for [...] egg-plants"?
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08:43:31 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70984&oldid=70783 * Palaiologos * (-843) Major cleanup
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09:56:55 <esowiki> [[User:GDavid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70985&oldid=57391 * GDavid * (+15) Stopwatch
10:04:07 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70986&oldid=70578 * GDavid * (+17) /* Based on dimensions */
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11:07:43 <b_jonas> ais523: but the slash doesn't have to be the first byte of the instruction
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11:31:39 <fizzie> Spam subject line of the day: "Re: Best human hair"
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13:02:01 <esowiki> [[Ser2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70987&oldid=52441 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
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14:32:26 <tromp> int-e: i don't understand the step from line 108 to 109 in latest BB.txt
14:32:56 <tromp> (i pushed some commits)
14:52:27 <esowiki> [[Slistp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70988&oldid=20914 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
14:54:49 <b_jonas> Sgeo__: this yes, some files can contain fixed strings that help users identify the type of file, but aren't actually read by the reader, so they're optional.
14:55:33 <b_jonas> eg. many of my perl or python scripts start with a shebang line that is not really used for anything but helpful as a programmer
15:01:26 <myname> aren't shebangs supposed to be absolute paths?
15:01:49 <myname> which is why you are seeing /bin/env python or the like
15:02:01 <b_jonas> myname: if you want to execute the script directly then yes
15:02:08 <b_jonas> but I don't do that, I execute them with perl or python3
15:02:21 <b_jonas> perl still reads command-line options from there
15:02:34 <b_jonas> and python has a py wrapper that reads the version number (python2 vs python3) and a bit more
15:02:41 <b_jonas> but I don't really use those features
15:02:50 <b_jonas> these are just mostly for convenience as a human
15:03:10 <b_jonas> also the .pl extension is terribly ambiguous
15:03:27 <b_jonas> at one point I wondered if we should just use .pm as the extension of all perl scripts
15:06:59 <ais523> together with Perl and Prolog that's at least three meanings of pl
15:07:21 <ais523> also I think there are circumstances under which shebangs work without the /
15:07:31 <ais523> but it probably depends a lot on the shell and OS
15:07:50 <ais523> there are some UNIXes which treat the magic number for an executable as "#! /" (four bytes)
15:07:58 <ais523> which is why I typically put a space in my shebangs
15:08:07 <ais523> even though I think that's an obsolete way of doing it
15:08:43 <b_jonas> I just like shebang as a human-readable way to declare the type of a file, even to people not familiar with that file format
15:09:06 <b_jonas> obviously there are many formats where it doesn't work because they have a magic number at the start
15:09:25 <b_jonas> but file formats could be designed such that the magic number isn't at the start, so you can put a short comment at the start
15:10:18 <b_jonas> especially esoteric file formats
15:10:19 <ais523> <Wikpedia> It has been claimed that some old versions of Unix expect the normal shebang to be followed by a space and a slash (#! /), but this appears to be untrue;[citation needed]
15:10:20 <ais523> OK, that makes things even more interesting
15:10:51 <esowiki> [[Small]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70989&oldid=62150 * LegionMammal978 * (-571) rewrapped code blocks
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15:12:46 <ais523> in a work-in-progress version of Underlambda I put a shebang /in/ the magic number
15:12:46 <ais523> but it was controversial
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15:12:55 <b_jonas> ais523: does linux even allow a space between the shebang and the interpreter filename, for the purpose of plain execve?
15:13:27 <b_jonas> oh also, it can be worth to design a file format such that it at least ignores a shebang line
15:13:55 <b_jonas> modern shell scripts already have that property, as well as perl and python scripts
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15:14:09 <ais523> b_jonas: I believe it does
15:14:32 <ais523> one of the larger reasons for # comments is so that they're shebang-compatible
15:14:35 <kritixilithos> tromp: how are you defining busy beaver in BB.txt?
15:14:44 <ais523> and there are some languages that don't have # comments, but ignore the first line if it starts with #!
15:15:02 <b_jonas> ais523: no, I think that's backwards, the shebang magic bytes were chosen because they're compatible with shell script comments
15:16:00 <ais523> b_jonas: can't both be true?
15:16:16 <tromp> kritixilithos: see https://mathoverflow.net/questions/353514/whats-the-smallest-lambda-calculus-term-not-known-to-have-a-normal-form
15:16:20 <ais523> new language uses # comments, to be compatible with other tooling that assumes # comments
15:18:15 <b_jonas> ais523: probably, for some new languages
15:18:47 <b_jonas> also it's a pity that C preprocessors don't ignore the #! line, not even if you use a double slash at the start of the path
15:19:13 <b_jonas> so there's probably no way to start a C source file with a shebang
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15:24:25 <b_jonas> not until someone adds an extension to the C preprocessor where #! is a null directive
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15:59:22 <oren> #! just gives me an warning
16:00:36 <oren> Oh, right, that's because I'm using tcc
16:00:51 <oren> lol I forgot that my "cc" command is tcc
16:01:07 <oren> gcc throws an error
16:02:25 <oren> tcc supports shebang lines so you can have executable C "scripts"
16:02:27 <b_jonas> also, you invoke cc ? I always invoke gcc or g++ directly, rather than cc and c++
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16:03:58 <ais523> b_jonas: based on experience with the megapolyglot, we believe the most portable way to start a program is with a "pre-preprocessed #line directive"
16:04:06 <ais523> which looks like # then a number then a string
16:04:16 <b_jonas> ais523: for a pre-processed file, sure
16:04:28 <b_jonas> but then you can't use the preprocessor
16:04:35 <ais523> b_jonas: most C compilers are happy to accept pre-preprocessed input and will preprocess it a second time
16:04:42 <b_jonas> that doesn't hurt the polyglot much, but in real world C source files I want to use preprocessor directives
16:04:56 <b_jonas> wait really? they just accept a line directive?
16:05:01 <ais523> as are, oddly, many implementations for languages other than C, even if they don't normally use the C preprocessor
16:05:03 <b_jonas> I mean an output line directive
16:05:59 <ais523> # 1 "hello.c" \ int main(void) { \ puts("Hello, world!"); \ }
16:06:13 <ais523> compiled under gcc I get a warning for "hello.c" even though the file is named something else, about the implicit definition of puts
16:06:20 <ais523> and the resulting executable works fine
16:06:24 <b_jonas> um, that doesn't actually have a preprocessor directive like #include <stdio.h> after the line directive
16:06:50 <ais523> OK, I added a preprocessor directive, and it was honoured
16:07:08 <ais523> which is not surprising, how would it know to turn the preprocessor off when it encountered the compiled-#line?
16:07:33 <b_jonas> yeah. I just expected that the output preprocessor line would give an error in the preprocessor
16:07:45 <ais523> it works in clang too: https://tio.run/#c-clang
16:07:54 <ais523> https://tio.run/##S9ZNzknMS///X1nBUEEpIzUnJ18vWYlLOSU1LTMvVaG4pLRAoaC0pJgrM69EITcxM0@jLD8zRVOhmksBLKmh5AHSo6NQnl@Uk6KopGnNVcv1/z8A
16:08:22 <ais523> and tcc: https://tio.run/##S9YtSU7@/19ZwVBBKSM1JydfL1mJSzklNS0zL1WhuKS0QKGgtKSYKzOvRCE3MTNPoyw/M0VToZpLASypoeQB0qOjUJ5flJOiqKRpzVXL9f8/AA
16:08:28 <ais523> I've run out of C compilers to check on TIO now, though
16:10:37 <ais523> anyway, for ages the polyglot started with a compiled-#line directive then /*
16:10:52 <ais523> which causes a huge number of languages to temporarily suspend the parser
16:10:55 <b_jonas> https://rextester.com can compile with MSVC :-)
16:11:17 <ais523> (the filename was chosen to put lots of esolangs into a comment / string literal / large jump, too)
16:12:04 <ais523> source_file.c(1): error C2019: expected preprocessor directive, found '1'
16:12:29 <b_jonas> I don't know what version of MSVC it runs though
16:12:32 <ais523> I guess it wouldn't be the first time MSVC didn't follow a de-facto standard that nonetheless wasn't an actual standard
16:12:39 <ais523> Microsoft (R) C/C++ Optimizing Compiler Version 19.00.23506 for x64
16:15:46 <oren> yeah when I compile things I use cc typically, i think because one of my first computers had gcc installed as "cc" and didn't accept a "gcc" command
16:16:43 <oren> what's really weird is now you see people with clang installed as "gcc"
16:17:15 <b_jonas> that's not too weird, clang is pretty closely compatible to gcc
16:18:27 <oren> but what that means is, "gcc" has become so intrenched as "the command to compile stuff"
16:18:56 <oren> cc has been forgoten, even though it's one less letter to type
16:19:12 <b_jonas> yes, because before linux and gcc got so spread, there were computers with separate cc and gcc commands. that's why autoconf scripts try gcc first, before cc
16:19:41 <b_jonas> also now there's c99 as a command name too
16:19:57 <b_jonas> because of POSIX or something like that
16:20:47 <ais523> oren: my first UNIXish environment had cc as provided by the OS manufacturer, it wasn't gcc
16:21:18 <ais523> it also had c99 but I didn't discover that for ages, and it was presented as though it were an entirely separate program from cc (although of course they probably shared a lot of code)
16:21:43 <ais523> so I still think of cc as being "the OS stock C compiler" and gcc as being a specific C compiler
16:21:54 <ais523> and on Linux, assume that the two are the same, as gcc is the standard C compiler on Linux
16:22:00 <ais523> (but this doesn't hold on other Unices)
16:22:29 <b_jonas> just as glibc is also the standard on linuxes, but it might be one of the other brands of libc that imitate glibc
16:22:54 <ais523> "gcc" on Mac OS X is normally actually clang, isn't it, nowadays?
16:23:18 <ais523> now I'm interested in what "cc" typically is on BSD
16:23:55 <ais523> I was wondering about that
16:24:35 <ais523> I'm surprised that BSD doesn't get more attention, actually; it's a perfectly solid OS and for most programs, it's very comparable to Linux, with easy porting both ways
16:25:32 <myname> hardware compatibility, probably
16:26:08 <ais523> that sort-of makes sense, I assume it has a smaller community of driver-writers
16:26:24 <ais523> I'd expect the hardware compatibility to be at least decent on older machines, though
16:28:24 <b_jonas> I suspect that BSD doesn't get much attention because it's non-proselytizing, or however that word is called, that is, there is a small community of people who use BSD, but they aren't actively trying to convince other people to also use BSD, whereas Linux fanatics try to convince people to use Linux all the time
16:29:01 <ais523> well, when programmers proselytize, they often do so by writing code to make things more user-friendly
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16:31:33 <b_jonas> plus I think it's also that at least some BSD activity focuses on using BSD in servers and routers and the like
16:31:58 <b_jonas> rather than workstations or mobile phones
16:32:20 <ais523> huh, assuming you aren't on Windows: http://localhost:631
16:32:32 <ais523> I kind-of hope that thing's firewalled by default
16:33:06 <b_jonas> just look at https://www.pcbsd.org , they used to brand themselves as a FreeBSD variant useful as a desktop environment for ordinary home users, but the distribution has disappeared or got renamed, and they now target servers
16:33:20 <ais523> I guess that's one way to make a semi-major part of an operating system OS-independent but it still seems really weird
16:33:22 <b_jonas> ais523: is that the printer server?
16:33:49 <b_jonas> I don't have anything running on that port here
16:34:20 <ais523> it even has Apple branding
16:34:25 <ais523> despite me being on Linux
16:35:03 <ais523> it seems to contain a list of everything I've ever printed, too
16:35:15 <ais523> (although I hardly ever print things so it's quite short)
16:49:24 <ais523> hmm, I wonder what the greatest proportion of the set of all bytestrings is, such that after all common sorts of encoding-related damage, the original string can be uniquely reconstructed
16:49:57 <ais523> obviously sticking to printable ASCII survives all common forms of encoding-related damage, but I think you safely can expand this into some of the control codes and high-bit-set characters
16:50:19 <ais523> (but not all of them, because you need to be able to, e.g., distinguish an unchanged source from mojibake)
16:51:27 <esowiki> [[Stacked Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70990&oldid=39483 * LegionMammal978 * (+36) /* Implementation */ fixed link
16:52:11 <b_jonas> that may depend on what you count as encoding-related. does word-wrapping count? HTML turning whitespace sequences to single spaces?
16:52:33 <b_jonas> old forums that output HTML from wiki-like input that change some spaces to nbsp?
16:54:47 <ais523> I think all those examples count
16:54:55 <ais523> so sticking to printable ASCII is not in fact enough
16:55:05 <ais523> (another encoding-related issue that can happen in printable ASCII: & becoming &)
16:56:18 <ais523> there's also the case of stray = signs from quoted-printable
16:56:28 <ais523> which can affect even input that's entirely alphanumeric
16:56:39 <b_jonas> would it count when web thingies replace anything with an @ sign in it with some javascript email address protection thing? when twitter or twitch chat replaces anything with a dot in it with a http hyperlink?
16:56:43 <ais523> and ASCII/EBCDIC misinterpretation, I guess, although that isn't common nowadays
16:57:14 <ais523> b_jonas: the former of those is done by Cloudflare under some circumstances, isn't it?
16:57:18 <ais523> which makes it very common
16:57:23 <ais523> and the latter is also frequently seen
16:57:36 <b_jonas> I've first seen it on the FSF's mailing list archive web interface
16:57:48 <ais523> (another related issue: ASCII sequences that look like emoticons being replaced with Unicode or even <img>-tag-based smileys)
16:58:07 <ais523> b_jonas: oh right, mailing list archives do that too
16:58:27 <b_jonas> as well as some phpbb, and in fact twitch chat too now that I think of it
16:58:51 <b_jonas> changing the :D to a smiley in Data::Dumper, turning :) and :-) to the same thing
17:00:12 <ais523> ASCII-as-UTF-16 misinterpretation has to be pretty rare
17:00:17 <b_jonas> there's also some wordpress-based web comment forms that turn ascii double quotes to fancy quotes
17:00:30 <ais523> although didn't Notepad do that once?
17:00:50 <ais523> ah yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_hid_the_facts
17:01:01 <b_jonas> I think that usually happens backwards, reading an utf-16 file as if it was some ascii-compatible encoding and adding nul bytes between
17:02:04 <ais523> b_jonas: yes but in that case it's normally really obvious what happened
17:02:27 <ais523> if you see a file that looks like ASCII but there's a NUL byte every other byte, you can typically figure out what went wrong even if you've never heard of UTF-16
17:02:39 <ais523> (and some formats, like VT-100, ignore NUL, so the file will even appear to work)
17:02:40 <b_jonas> ah, I didn't know about that one
17:02:49 <ais523> (assuming it has no non-ASCII characters)
17:03:18 <b_jonas> usually yes. not if I just try to run a grep command, get no matches, and forget that the file is utf-16 encoded
17:03:37 <b_jonas> that happened to me a few times recently
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17:06:41 <HackEso> [U+0D0A MALAYALAM LETTER UU]
17:06:58 <ais523> I'm reading blog posts about the Notepad misdetection
17:07:19 <ais523> and one of them mentions that the CRLF character is explicitly illegal in Unicode, presumably to make detection easier
17:07:22 <ais523> I think it's just lying though?
17:07:36 <b_jonas> oh, there's also some encoding-related garbage that you can get from perl's encoding io layer, which is somehow messed up in more than one way
17:07:42 <ais523> hmm, perhaps it only detects it that way round
17:07:55 <ais523> but it'd be weird to have such a detection for one endianness but not the other
17:08:22 <ais523> I guess this is one argument to prefer UTF16-LE over UTF16-BE
17:08:30 <b_jonas> in particular, on windows with a native win32 perl, when I try to write a file with layer :encoding(utf-16-le):crlf , I get garbage. no, it doesn't just output the crlf wrong, it outputs everything wrong after some point in the file.
17:08:42 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70991&oldid=70882 * Hakerh400 * (+134) /* Languages */
17:08:47 <b_jonas> many years ago I saw the encoding layer cause to output some lines twice.
17:08:55 <ais523> b_jonas: how does that compare to :crlf:encoding(utf-16-le)?
17:09:13 <ais523> I'd expect at least one of those to replace all the 0x0D bytes in the Unicode encoding with 0x0D/0x0A pairs, which would throw off the byte pairing
17:09:25 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't recall the details, I think it's just :encoding(utf-16-le) that's buggy, because :crlf is the default
17:09:43 <b_jonas> a workaround is to use :raw:encoding(utf-16-le) and then put crlf at the end of my lines manually
17:10:23 <b_jonas> ais523: no, it isn't just messed up in any of those trivial ways, and the output that I tried to write is mostly ascii
17:10:40 <b_jonas> I didn't really try to isolate the bug, I just gave up
17:10:54 <b_jonas> and also trying to move away for perl, not only for this reason
17:11:05 <ais523> heh, the blog post later discuses the MALAYALAM LETTER UU issue
17:11:20 <ais523> b_jonas: what are you planning to move onto?
17:11:45 <b_jonas> ais523: python3. I already have a csv reader and writer in python, and a lot of more specific scripts related to work.
17:12:13 <b_jonas> eventually I should make a patched python3 that adds extra syntax so I can write python in a single line, useful for command-line or IRC
17:12:36 <b_jonas> it can be done in a sane backwards compatible way, I already have a candidate for the syntax
17:12:47 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm considering looking for alternatives to Perl, however I dislike Python and don't consider it a reasonable alternative for me
17:12:50 <b_jonas> ideally should get that thing into vanilla python, because I'm not the only one who's missing that feature
17:13:02 <b_jonas> but I'm not getting my hope up
17:13:33 <b_jonas> still, it's a pure syntax extension, so the modified python would be compatible with all existing python code, which is the whole point
17:13:43 <b_jonas> ais523: any specific reason why you dislike python
17:14:00 <b_jonas> one advantage of python is that the standard library is more suited to native windows
17:14:30 <b_jonas> not perfectly suited, it's still written by unix programmers, but you don't have to install CPAN modules to open files with non-ascii filenames or any of that nonsense
17:14:50 <ais523> b_jonas: I think the largest design flaw is to have a language where values carry types, with strong restrictions on how types can be combined + context-sensitive overloading, /but/ no static typing
17:15:20 <ais523> although Perl started to move in that direction over time with operator overloading, at least most packages keep the normal meanings of the operators
17:15:38 <ais523> + and * in Python can do two unrelated things based on where the arguments come from
17:15:42 <b_jonas> ais523: if you want static typing, there's always rust and C++, and you can mix them with python just as you can with perl
17:15:50 <ais523> `! python print("2" + 3)
17:15:51 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/!: line 4: /hackenv/ibin/python: No such file or directory
17:15:56 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70992&oldid=70984 * Palaiologos * (+275)
17:16:11 <ais523> `` echo 'print("2" + 3)' > /tmp/t.py; python3 t.py
17:16:12 <HackEso> python3: can't open file 't.py': [Errno 2] No such file or directory
17:16:16 <ais523> `` echo 'print("2" + 3)' > /tmp/t.py; python3 /tmp/tt.py
17:16:17 <HackEso> python3: can't open file '/tmp/tt.py': [Errno 2] No such file or directory
17:16:19 <ais523> `` echo 'print("2" + 3)' > /tmp/t.py; python3 /tmp/t.py
17:16:20 <HackEso> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/tmp/t.py", line 1, in <module> \ print("2" + 3) \ TypeError: can only concatenate str (not "int") to str
17:16:25 <ais523> `` echo 'print("2" * 3)' > /tmp/t.py; python3 /tmp/t.py
17:16:31 <ais523> `` echo 'print(2 * 3)' > /tmp/t.py; python3 /tmp/t.py
17:16:53 <ais523> so there's this big distinction between "2" and 2 in how they behave, and code will only be correct for one or the other
17:17:11 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't find that too much of a problem, but ok, that's a good specific answer
17:17:14 <ais523> but there's no sensible way to have this checked automatically
17:17:29 <ais523> Perl doesn't have this problem because "2" and 2 act very similarly in any numeric context
17:17:30 <b_jonas> I understand why you'd want different names for the concat and repeat operators
17:17:36 <ais523> and, indeed, in any string context
17:17:58 <ais523> you can distinguish them if you really want to, but normally you don't want to
17:18:18 <ais523> also this has lead to bugs in practice
17:18:27 <ais523> the Python program I most often use is the Jelly interpreter
17:18:30 <b_jonas> right, but in python, "2" and 2 never act similarly, so this generally doesn't cause confusion
17:19:04 <b_jonas> about the only time when they act similarly is if you pass them to the int or float constructor
17:19:08 <ais523> and it leads to programs like the following quine: https://tio.run/##y0rNyan8//9R4z4gerhjCRD9/w8A
17:19:14 <ais523> which isn't even valid Jelly but the interpreter doesn't notice
17:19:41 <ais523> b_jonas: the confusion is the lack of a type error when passing a value of the wrong type
17:20:07 <ais523> other things I dislike are the way it does variable declarations, and the whitespace-sensitivity
17:20:56 <ais523> also the package manager, but cpan the package managing software isn't all that great either (I'm fine with CPAN the repository, though, and with cpanm)
17:21:26 <b_jonas> ais523: right, but it doesn't occur often. the + operator for add vs concatenation, the * operator for multiplication vs repeat, the str function semi-pretty-printing things, int and float converting numbers or parsing strings, plus the [] operator for arrays vs dictionaries, those are about the only cases when this happens
17:21:38 <b_jonas> most of the time when I pass the wrong type of value, I get an error
17:21:58 <ais523> the ⁾⁾ḤḤ quine exploits the second case
17:22:12 <b_jonas> as for variable declarations and whitespace sensitivity, those complaints I do understand
17:22:16 <ais523> ⁾ creates a 2-character string, and a string in Jelly is an array of characters
17:22:17 <b_jonas> I want to fix the whitespace sensitivity
17:22:31 <b_jonas> I probably don't want to fix variable declarations, though there could be an extension fixing that
17:22:33 <ais523> so it creates the string ⁾Ḥ
17:22:40 <ais523> then Ḥ doubles a number, or all numbers in an array
17:22:41 <b_jonas> mind you, Julia's rules for variable declarations are way worse than python's IMO
17:22:47 <ais523> and you can guess what happened next :-D
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17:25:05 <b_jonas> more likely in that crazy esolang idea that I'll probably never develop, the configurable one where you can choose between APL order and C order and even more for function calls, I'd have 2*2 options for how variable declarations and scoping work, as in 2 for explicit my and implicit nonlocal vs explicit nonlocal and implicit my, and if/while/for creating a scope vs if/while/for not creating a scope
17:26:14 <b_jonas> and allow to toggle those lexically within a scope
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17:59:45 <int-e> tromp: hmm, what's the issue with that step from line 108 to 109? It splits X^V' into W^V' and B^V', expands W^V'[v := X^V] as before and B^V' using the undyction hypothesis?
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18:00:22 <int-e> Hah, "undyction" is beautiful.
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18:12:23 <tromp> int-e: induction on size of term in B^V' ?
18:14:02 <int-e> tromp: I'm treating B^V = H[W^V X^V] = H[W^V (W^V u B^V)] as the inductive definition of B^V.
18:14:14 <int-e> tromp: But yes, induction on the size will work as well.
18:14:43 <int-e> tromp: it's proper because while H may be empty, we take at least one W^V off.
18:14:47 <tromp> ok, i'll add an intermediate line = H[W^V'[v := X^V] (W^V'[v := X^V] ∪ B^V'[v := X^V]) ] to make the steps clearer
18:15:50 <int-e> Funny that we both added an nf[_]size command.
18:17:42 <tromp> i only did so after you mentioned it (but before checking the repo)
19:10:06 <kspalaiologos> so essentially if I wanted to write a JIT or AOT compiler based on my current interpreter in JAva
19:10:20 <kspalaiologos> should I target java bytecode, C, x86 assembly, llvm... ?
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19:10:59 <kspalaiologos> I'm not really sure because I don't want to kill portability Java offers and overload my program with unnecessary external libraries or programs
19:11:09 <Sgeo__> Homestuck music update!
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19:11:30 <zzo38> I don't know, there are advantages and disadvantages in each case.
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19:13:19 <imode> where are you intending to run this.
19:13:30 <imode> and is this like a brainfuck interpreter?
19:13:54 <kspalaiologos> imode, said that already, I want it as portable as possible; and this is a brainfuck interpreter now, but I can eaisly transform it into a compiler
19:15:15 <zzo38> C code may be more portable, or a simple code using an emulation
19:15:32 <imode> you haven't said it in my logs, so I don't think asking is out of the question.
19:15:46 <ais523> kspalaiologos: if you're writing in Java, then Java bytecode may be a good target format, as the Java runtime will JIT that once you generate it
19:15:47 <imode> if you want portability, yeah, you can hardly beat Java.
19:15:55 <ais523> so you basically have a platform-independent JIT
19:16:12 <imode> if you want _actual_ portability, compile it to C. every platform has a C compiler at some point.
19:16:23 <ais523> at work I use a library called ASM (confusingly) to generate Java bytecode at runtime
19:16:31 <ais523> C is a good target language if you want AOT rather than JIT
19:17:08 <ais523> C compiler optimizers are pretty good nowadays, although I can normally beat them programming by hand
19:17:23 <kspalaiologos> C may be orders of magnitude more performant than Java
19:17:28 <ais523> although, the workings of modern computers are confusing, and optimizing for speed is really counterintuitive sometimes
19:18:03 <ais523> out-of-order execution has a much larger impact than instruction alignment
19:18:20 <ais523> and it interacts with caching in weird ways
19:19:41 <ais523> a while ago, to test out my optimization skills, I decided to aim for the following challenge: given a simple (inlinable) function that generates a continuous stream of bytes in a way that doesn't take up much of the CPU's time
19:19:47 <ais523> write the resulting bytes to memory as quickly as possible
19:19:53 <arseniiv> ha, C, Java. I plan to compile something into Python (as for programs written in it it’s pretty logical; there’s a module to work with its own AST and a function for compiling it)
19:19:54 <zzo38> I thikn computers should be designed less confusing
19:20:21 <ais523> it took a lot of attempts and experimentation to find an optimal (or as optimal as I could get it) solution, but I beat the C compilers fairly quickly
19:20:47 <zzo38> You could also allow it to support multiple targets
19:21:03 <kspalaiologos> zzo38, not today, that's too much effort :P, I'll maybe support C later on
19:21:10 <ais523> (for people who are wondering, take a couple of 128-bit registers, store intermediate results there, and then write them using nontemporal writes; this is fastest even though GPR→vector register copies are documented as slow)
19:21:32 <ais523> (oddly, this was fastest even though the CPU had 256-bit registers available)
19:21:54 <kspalaiologos> it's always cheering to see a fellow assembly programmer
19:21:55 <arseniiv> <kspalaiologos> python doesn't seem like a good target => for production code, I more or less agree, but for quick proof-of-concept things why not
19:22:11 <kspalaiologos> ^ yeah, for a proof of concept python is sufficient
19:22:33 <arseniiv> assembly programmers are magicians
19:23:08 <arseniiv> as any true magician, an assembly master is a rare sight
19:23:09 <ais523> I don't write in asm much, but I think it's an important language to know, especially when trying to work out how to write the quickest possible code
19:23:29 <ais523> I consider asm to be a fairly easy language to write (if you aren't aiming for performance), incidentally, it's just really time-consuming
19:24:01 <arseniiv> <kspalaiologos> Malbolge programmers are true magicians => hmhm maybe they are abstract theoretical magicians then, and assembly ones, practicing ones ;D
19:24:01 <kspalaiologos> writing my Assembly implementation for the Seed generator has been a quite long process
19:24:08 <esowiki> [[Indent]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70993&oldid=70947 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* Examples */
19:24:15 <kspalaiologos> in fact, it took around 2 days to get it up and running
19:25:05 <ais523> I looked at it but didn't really read it
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19:29:24 <arseniiv> though in view of wanting to call myself a bit of a magician too I need to postulate Haskell-or-other programmers should be magicians too, just of a school almost incompatible in its workings to an assembly ones. It’s even plain to see: an assembly magician assembles (with others) and a haskell one, well, “has call”, which might mean that they can talk to one another at a distance, which is quite a good trait these times. I’ll s
19:30:22 <zzo38> There are different assembly language for different computers and VMs, so you might know one way better than other one.
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19:32:43 <zzo38> I have used the assembly language of 6502, MIX, MMIX, Glulx, Z-machine, and maybe a few others
19:33:28 <zzo38> If you want to write a text adventure game, you may want to learn Glulx or Z-machine programming; there are some tricks I have figured out
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19:38:21 <zzo38> Infocom put in some features in Z-machine that they then didn't use. And then, there are many other tricks they didn't consider, such as the SET->BCOM optimization, etc. So, if you write programs for Z-machine, then you can learn this, please.
19:42:54 <esowiki> [[Tttt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70995&oldid=67806 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-19) /* the symbols */ Fixing your ordered list so it is legible
19:55:44 <esowiki> [[Elevated Parser]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70996 * Hakerh400 * (+8045) +[[Elevated Parser]]
19:55:47 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70997&oldid=70961 * Hakerh400 * (+22) +[[Elevated Parser]]
19:55:50 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70998&oldid=70991 * Hakerh400 * (+38) +[[Elevated Parser]]
19:58:38 <zzo38> ais523: Which instruction set and what CPU were you writing the program you mentioned is fastest?
19:58:52 <esowiki> [[Elevated Parser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70999&oldid=70996 * Hakerh400 * (+11) /* Processing abstract syntax tree */
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20:03:29 <esowiki> [[Elevated Parser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71001&oldid=71000 * Hakerh400 * (+2)
20:04:19 <esowiki> [[Elevated Parser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71002&oldid=71001 * Hakerh400 * (+0)
20:08:46 <int-e> Hrm. "Are you sure you want to cancel this operation? [Cancel] [Ok]"
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20:09:05 <int-e> I clicked "Cancel" rather than "Ok" and then wondered why nothing happened.
20:11:14 <zzo38> That isn't very good, they should write (Y/N) instead
20:12:49 <kmc> you cancelled the cancelling
20:13:24 <kmc> i agree with zzo38, that isn't very good
20:14:42 <int-e> (This is github btw, when cancelling editing of a comment.)
20:15:12 <int-e> (But are those labels provided by the JS code or by the browser, hmm.)
20:18:19 <zzo38> If it is in the browser and is provided by a JavaScript prompt() function, then that isn't a problem, since they just have to make the expectation (although maybe they should put labels true/false). If it is a confirmation the browser puts by itself, perhaps due to an altered but not yet submitted form (this would be a better way, subject to user configuration), then it should use better writing.
20:21:55 <arseniiv> yeah, this xkcd is poetic. A glider ensouled takes into the sky and expands the boundaries of life
20:23:25 <arseniiv> though maybe it doesn’t quite reach the surreal, and that’s a pity
20:29:54 <kmc> it's pretty good
20:30:52 <int-e> arseniiv: what do you want, the glider breaking out of the frame and psychedelic rainbow colors when the glider hits the edge of the browser window?
20:31:34 <int-e> (the former would be kind of cute, but hard to do with just an animated gif :) )
20:32:22 <arseniiv> int-e: hmmm the idea is nice but I don’t know if it would be linked to surreal numbers by many
20:34:09 <kmc> i kind of thought it would break out of the frame
20:35:34 <int-e> I was wrong, this isn't actually happening on github (which phrases the message differently); it's just its sibling, gist.
20:38:19 <int-e> Huh. Can't reproduce? Maybe my brain read something that wasn't there. In that case... let me get back on the project of detonating the Sun to erase all evidence of this ever happening.
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20:42:56 <HackEso> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft.
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20:43:20 <ais523> I'm not sure if I should continue reading the HTML spec, it just continues to get weirder and weirder
20:43:22 <arseniiv> hm yes I still haven’t learned this language
20:43:48 <ais523> for example, it uses the three-word phrase "will declaratively refresh" as though it were a single-word noun
20:44:06 <ais523> e.g. "If document's will declaratively refresh is true, then return."
20:44:21 <int-e> arseniiv: Yes, it is mentioned in there.
20:44:55 <ais523> which, given that most of the document is written in pseudocode, I'm not even sure I can argue that this is wrong because variable names can be anything without changing the meaning
20:45:17 <ais523> but you'd have thought that reasonable programs would try to use something less unwieldy
20:46:54 <arseniiv> int-e: (could you maybe try the Moon first? If it’ll be sufficient then at least someone will still have the Sun)
20:48:30 <int-e> arseniiv: No, the whole point of this endeavour is to be thorough.
20:48:51 <int-e> arseniiv: Unfortunately, I don't even know where to begin. ;)
20:49:01 <arseniiv> int-e: but the Sun may be not enough
20:49:20 <int-e> arseniiv: True, true.
20:49:34 <int-e> arseniiv: However you should make up your mind about what you want.
20:50:03 <ais523> <int-e> Hrm. "Are you sure you want to cancel this operation? [Cancel] [Ok]" ← I'm having problems working out a good interface for that, especially because by the normal interface guidelines, /both/ buttons should say "Cancel"
20:50:14 <ais523> (this is assuming that there's no easy way to undo the cancel once it's started)
20:50:24 <ais523> (otherwise, you just cancel and have an "undo cancel" button, which is 100% clear)
20:50:31 <arseniiv> ah, so I need to distract you with blowing up Sagittarius A* after all
20:51:17 <ais523> that might be a fun question for the user interface design stack exchange
20:51:31 <ais523> I think nowadays my main usage of stack exchange is asking ridiculously hard questions that I don't expect there to be a good answer to
20:51:37 <zzo38> I think (Y/N) is best, but that is not applicable to HTML. I suggested displaying true/false if the confirm() function is used.
20:51:45 <zzo38> Since, those are the return values of the confirm() function.
20:51:53 <ais523> (nothing is lost if I'm right, but something amazing often happens when I'm wrong, so the overall expectation is very positive)
20:52:09 <int-e> I'm really miffed about not being able to reproduce it, and not knowing whether it's a corner case or something I just imagined.
20:52:48 <int-e> Not enough to go diving into github's code, but it's kind of a close call.
20:54:31 <arseniiv> int-e: I tried to cancel editing my own comment now at my gist, and it asks “Are you sure you want to discard your unsaved changes?” with OK and Cancel (translated) buttons
20:54:53 <arseniiv> is it what you think you have seen?
20:56:28 <arseniiv> ah, btw the browser is Firefox and the dialog is seemingly by Firefox, so it should be a standard JS function being used, yep
20:57:19 <int-e> arseniiv: That is what I'm seeing when I try to reproduce the problem :P
20:57:44 <int-e> arseniiv: But it's not what I thought I saw.
20:58:01 <int-e> arseniiv: Don't worry. It's nice to get *something* right. :P
20:58:15 <arseniiv> though at least what you see instead is more reproducible that it was known prior
20:59:17 <arseniiv> int-e: *something* right => then not the Sun, Sagittarius A*
21:03:08 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71003&oldid=70994 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+859)
21:04:29 <int-e> arseniiv: Nah, I also try to keep my goals realistic. If I'm to shoot at stars, I'll start with the Sun.
21:05:05 <arseniiv> still, I have some time to dissuade you
21:05:44 <int-e> Perhaps so, but all you're accomplishing is to strengthen my resolve.
21:09:04 <arseniiv> int-e: hmm it came to my mind if I blow up Sgt A* first (and in the right way), you woudn’t get a chance with the Sun… hm
21:10:08 <arseniiv> though this is a goal no less distant to me too, so I’m just musing alound
21:10:58 <arseniiv> though no, I should pick Betelgeuse
21:11:18 <ais523> are there any natural languages where the natural translations of "yes" and "no" start with the same letter?
21:30:12 <fizzie> A table on the Internet says that in the Bambara language (which is "mostly written in the Latin script") those are Awɔ and Ayi respectively. But another dictionary page writes the yes as "ɔwɔ", and there is an uppercase Ɔ as well, so maybe not. It does seem to be a different vowel, at least.
21:34:18 <fizzie> The Hawaiian ʻae (yes) and ʻaʻole (no) might count. (I don't know any of these languages, just guessing.)
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21:49:45 <zzo38> The user interface guidelines are perhaps no good then. What is done in vi is better, you must type :q! if you want to discard your changes, if you type :q and there are unsaved changes, it tell you that you must type :q! instead if you want to discard the unsaved changes or :w to save changes, or :wq to save and quit.
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22:25:15 <ais523> zzo38: that's a good solution for a command-line interface
22:26:09 <ais523> hmm, the best dialog button names I can think of for this are "Confirm cancel" and "Continue, don't cancel"
22:27:42 <zzo38> Perhaps "discard" and "continue editing" (and possibly also "save changes")
22:30:18 <ais523> zzo38: if it's just for an editor, then yes, that's the standard
22:32:16 <zzo38> Yes. For other things, there is other stuff. Such as, if an operating is processing and then will be completed by itself in time, to put: Copying interrupted. Push space to resume copying or ^C to cancel copying.
22:48:08 <zzo38> Maybe the overspill for reconnaissance should be you can look at the top card of any player's regular pile.
22:50:25 <zzo38> (You cannot look at the card underneath the top card even if you have more than one reconnaissance, but if you have two reconnaissances then you can look at both your own and your opponent's card.)
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01:27:48 <esowiki> [[Tbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71006&oldid=71005 * LegionMammal978 * (+25) /* External resources */ fixed link
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01:53:45 <esowiki> [[ThaM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71008&oldid=30198 * LegionMammal978 * (+36) /* External resources */ fixed link
01:54:19 <esowiki> [[ThaM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71009&oldid=71008 * LegionMammal978 * (+36) /* External resources */ fixed other link
02:03:42 <zzo38> Do you like Sean Uy's puzzles?
02:07:03 <esowiki> [[Thotpatrol]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71010&oldid=51367 * LegionMammal978 * (+15) fixed title
02:47:01 <esowiki> [[TinyBF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71011&oldid=50225 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
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03:30:17 <zzo38> Is someone on today?
03:32:52 <zzo38> Is there a option in Firefox and/or other web browsers that cookies can be disabled except for redirects?
03:33:07 <pikhq> I have not seen such an option, no
03:34:06 <zzo38> What do you think of my idea of "fission" ability for Magic: the Gathering cards?
03:35:39 <pikhq> I must say, I missed your discussion of it, so I can't say
03:36:13 * pikhq should maybe get back into Magic after this is all over...
03:36:49 <zzo38> Starts at UNIX timestamp 1586738893.
03:37:33 <zzo38> Even if you are alone, you can still compose and/or solve puzzles of Magic: the Gathering, which is something I like to do.
03:38:15 <pikhq> My wife knows how to play, but I'm more into it than her, and she's been preoccupied with Final Fantasy 7 lately
03:38:44 <pikhq> otoh could do internet stuff
03:38:47 <zzo38> Do you like puzzles of Magic: the Gathering?
03:38:58 <pikhq> I have never really gotten into 'em
03:39:16 <pikhq> For me a decent chunk of the appeal of Magic _is_ the fact you're playing with other people
03:39:47 <pikhq> Like, yes, the game itself is appealing, but I also enjoy the social nature of it
03:40:01 <zzo38> There are some free open source implementations of Magic: the Gathering; one I looked at (but never used; I only looked at the code) is Xmage, which does not implement text changing effects.
03:40:14 <pikhq> Yeah, I've used some in the past
03:41:25 <zzo38> I thought to implement a RDF-based format which can implement many features of Magic: the Gathering much better. So, that is my suggestion to someone who is implementing Magic: the Gathering.
03:42:37 * pikhq wonders if she should rope her girlfriend into learning Magic :P
03:42:56 <pikhq> Probably not, unless she waaaants to...
03:43:45 <zzo38> You could ask if you want to, I suppose.
03:44:53 <zzo38> Chess (and many chess variants, too) can also easily be played by computer without specialized software, using IRC or a direct connection or whatever (or even by telephone, too, actually)
03:45:24 <zzo38> Card games is more difficult to do by computer without the specialized software, but chess game can be done easily.
03:45:31 <pikhq> Yeah, I mean, chess is trivial to do remotely.
03:45:43 <pikhq> Correspondence chess has been a Thing for ages, after all
03:46:56 <zzo38> Yes, it must have been. I don't know how old it is exactly, but I think it was even done by telegrams in the past
03:47:24 <ais523> pikhq: I've basically given up on Magic as a game to play, as opposed to a game to theorize about
03:47:41 <ais523> I've disliked the direction it's been going in for quite a while
03:47:53 <pikhq> I've only played Magic in kitchen table formats, thankfully
03:47:58 <zzo38> Dod you read my "fission" ideas about making a card that becomes two objects in the battlefield but only one outside (like the reverse of meld)?
03:48:50 <zzo38> ais523: I don't like many of the features of the rules either (or some of the card designs), but in some cases I have thought of how to make a variant rules, trying to make it close to the official rules though
03:51:38 <ais523> the basic problem is that Wizards are trying to make too many products for too many audiences, and are being pulled in too many directions and the quality has gone way down
03:52:10 <zzo38> Although some of these rules aren't so new, and some of them they have fixed (for example, I didn't like the planeswalker redirection rule and I am glad they removed it), but one rule I dislike is names for tokens, which seems mathematically klugy to me in the way the spelling works. Subtypes should be a separate namespace from names and shouldn't interact in this way (with the possible exception of conventional basic lands).
03:52:13 <ais523> actually, something similar to this is why I gave up on Pokémon (the video game, not the card game, and not the video game /of/ the card game)
03:52:52 <ais523> hmm, would "a land token named Island" tap for blue? my guess is no (but "an Island land token" would)
03:53:07 <zzo38> ais523: I agree with you about the land tokens.
03:53:18 <pikhq> tbh my time is nevertheless likely to be occupied
03:53:39 <zzo38> Since, "a land token named Island" still doesn't have the subtype Island, so it doesn't implicitly have "{T}: Add {U}".
03:53:57 <ais523> anyway, the M:tG Busy Beaver people are apparently trying to figure out a way to create an Ackermann-like function only it has the busy beaver function rather than an increment
03:54:14 <ais523> zzo38: right, I was just wondering whether there was a special rule for things named Island, or whether that only applies to cards
03:54:31 <ais523> like, a card named Island implicitly has the Island subtype
03:54:38 <ais523> if it's printed that way
03:54:44 <ais523> due to how Oracle text works
03:55:02 <ais523> but I guess that doesn't affect tokens that were created with the same name as a card due to Artificial Evolution
03:55:30 <ais523> (IIRC think "Splinter" is both a card name, and a name of a token that can be created without text-changing effects)
03:55:41 <zzo38> ais523: O, yes, that is a rule of Oracle text for conventional basic lands. And, yes, it won't affect tokens of course, or even cards, just, I should think it should mean, as far as the game is concerned, a card printed with a given name has the text specified by the Oracle text as its initial text.
03:56:27 <zzo38> The exception I mentioned for conventional basic lands doesn't mean that names are subtypes, only that the name of "an Island land token" would compare as equal to the name of a card named "Island", but this isn't the case for creature tokens that are not explicitly given names (if they are explicitly given names, then they do compare equal to card names that are spelled the same way in English).
03:57:03 <ais523> I think removing special cases would be helpful
03:57:07 <ais523> `card-by-name Spreading Seas
03:57:08 <HackEso> Spreading Seas \ 1U \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant land \ When Spreading Seas enters the battlefield, draw a card. \ Enchanted land is an Island. \ ZEN-C
03:57:48 <zzo38> That changes the subtype, not the name. It wouldn't change under the rules I mention.
03:57:49 <ais523> my preferred templating for the second ability would be «Enchanted land is an Island with "{T}: Add {U}" and no other subtypes or abilities.»
03:58:17 <ais523> as it is, there's a special rule that changing the subtype of a land removes all its abilities, and there's a special rule on the Island subtype to add the ability to tap for {U}
03:59:07 <zzo38> Yes, those are special cases. The special rule about changing the subtype of a land removing all abilities I agree is a bit klugy, but the rule that those subtypes implicitly cause it to have those abilities is I think probably important to keep how it is.
03:59:26 <ais523> the implicit rule for the Wall subtype got removed
03:59:54 <zzo38> Yes, and that is good that they removed the rule for Wall.
04:00:00 <pikhq> Yeah, that got swapped over to being an explicit ability, and thank goodness
04:00:07 <pikhq> I don't like that sort of hidden magic in game design
04:01:03 <zzo38> (Also, I mentioned "possible exception"; maybe my new rule should not have the exception for names of conventional basic lands. I am not sure. Either way, it won't affect non-conventional basic lands.)
04:01:19 <ais523> I do like design guidelines like "black creatures are hard to destroy" but those don't have to be part of the game rules
04:02:03 <pikhq> That's the sort of thing you don't have to explain to people to learn the game, but will _inevitably_ pick up if they play enough
04:02:22 <ais523> that's one thing that the Pokémon video games do well, the power of something can be in how other things interact with it rather than in its own rules
04:05:07 <ais523> although it can lead to things getting a little broken sometimes when the delicate chain of interactions breaks down
04:05:18 <ais523> e.g. see https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ask-a-simple-question-get-a-simple-answer-mark-ii-roa-edition.3468567/page-53#post-8317201 and the answer two posts below (I'm callforjudgement)
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04:07:08 <ais523> the funny thing is that Arena Trap started off as a safety valve against one strategy, and ended up, many years later, making another strategy too strong by countering its counters
04:07:33 <zzo38> There are some unofficial implementations of Pokemon battles too, with different generations.
04:08:08 <zzo38> What does the Arena Trap ability do?
04:08:51 <ais523> it prevents grounded opponents from switching out as long as the Arena Trap user is in battle, without the help of an item that ungrounds them (Air Balloon) or that allows them to ignore trapping effects (Shed Shell)
04:09:41 <ais523> but all its users are very defensively vulnerable in order to compensate for the fairly good ability
04:10:04 <ais523> so normally there's not much point in trapping the opponent with it because they just KO you and regain the ability to switch out that way
04:12:49 <ais523> oh, I think the Run Away ability might also allow you to ignore trapping effects, not sure though, they keep changing what abilities do and most of the changes have been really good ideas, but it makes the rules hard to remember sometimes
04:13:30 <zzo38> Well, just you should agree which generation you are playing, and then, you should use the rules for that generation, I should think. (With any alterations for the specific match, if any, I suppose.)
04:14:05 <ais523> zzo38: I agree; it's just that there are eight generations now and trying to remember the rules for each of them is complicated
04:14:42 <ais523> there was a really major rules change in generation 8 (the turn order isn't locked in at the start of the turn, rather it's recalculated for every Pokémon that hasn't moved yet after each move) which I dislike
04:14:55 <ais523> and which keeps catching me out in generation 8 battles
04:15:44 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose it is difficult like you said.
04:16:34 <zzo38> I thought turn order was based on speed? If that is how it work then I should think the result is same either way? Does it do another way?
04:17:10 <ais523> zzo38: yes, based on speed
04:17:27 <ais523> but say there are four Pokémon on the battlefield and their speeds are in the order A, B, C, D
04:17:44 <ais523> now if Pokémon A uses a move to make Pokémon D faster, it could go next if its speed is increased to now be faster than B's
04:18:49 <ais523> whereas under the old rules, Pokémon B and C would move next, then Pokémon D, but the turn afterwards Pokémon D would move sooner
04:19:09 <zzo38> O, OK. Now I know what you mean.
04:21:23 <ais523> the drawback of speed-boosting moves used to be that they did nothing on the turn you used them, and they were balanced accordingly, but now (except in battles with only two Pokémon) there is very little counterplay to them, other than by building a team which would naturally go at the end of the turn order anyway (making the moves redundant)
04:21:35 <ais523> so it's made battles much more matchup-dependent than they used to be
04:22:12 <ais523> and means that many battles end up being decided by guesses made in the Team Preview phase
04:25:24 <ais523> (generation 8 also invented Max Airstream, which is probably the most broken move ever in Pokémon, and is speed-boosting, although oddly it's somehow even more broken in singles, where the changes to turn order calculation have no effect)
04:26:26 <ais523> hmm, we could do with a Pokémon video games version of `card-by-name, I guess, but probably these conversations don't come up often enough for it to be worth the programming effort
04:27:49 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71012&oldid=70793 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+32)
04:28:06 <zzo38> I have thought of a system for custom Pokemon battles, involving various rule customization and time controls customization (the time controls is more general and can be applied to many different games).
04:28:45 <ais523> there are simulators that understand a lot of custom rules already
04:28:50 <ais523> although your rules might not be included
04:30:13 <zzo38> I mentioned to someone about text-based pokemon battle game (that you can connect using telnet or SSH), but they mentioned it is good except Spinda. But, once I looked it up, I can see how it is working, so, I think the solution is that if your pokemon is Spinda, then your opponent is allowed to see all values derived from the personality value (or encryption constant in gen VI).
04:31:50 <zzo38> (If you specify rules that data of opponent's pokemons is visible anyways, then of course it is irrelevant.)
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04:33:59 <ais523> I think at some point Spinda's personality value stopped being visible from its graphics, I forget which generation though
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04:34:18 <ais523> in practice, I don't think I've seen anyone reverse-calculate Spinda's personality value in a competitive battle anyway
04:34:36 <ais523> (it's normally only done to peek at the state of the random number generator)
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04:37:33 <zzo38> I forget which generation they added chess clocks, although I remember once my brother told me. Of course, in a unofficial program, it could allow the rules to customize time controls independently of the generation.
04:38:23 <ais523> zzo38: 5, I believe, although it doesn't work quite the same way as regular chess clocks
04:38:39 <ais523> there are actually /three/ clocks, one of which runs permanently (even when it's neither player's turn) and causes a draw if it runs out
04:39:09 <ais523> and an additional clock which limits how much time you have for each individual move, so that's a fourth clock
04:39:14 <ais523> if it runs out your turn is decided at random
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04:40:29 <zzo38> So the chess clock is just one of three
04:40:45 <ais523> I think the reason the system is so complex is for online tournaments
04:41:16 <ais523> which needed to avoid running out of time for a round even if the players used moves with very long animations every turn (perhaps because they were colluding in an attempt to break the servers)
04:44:00 <zzo38> Could they disable animations? Did they have an option for that?
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04:47:19 <ais523> zzo38: the games have had options to disable animations since gen 1, but oddly, in competitive/link battles the animations are forced to be turned on, ignoring the option
04:54:28 <pikhq> ais523: Frankly that always annoyed me
04:54:36 <pikhq> If I wanted animations off, it should just let me
04:55:33 <zzo38> Yes, I should think so too, at least if both players turn off animations, then it should be turned off.
04:56:10 <zzo38> (Animations should also be forced off if any kind of time controls are specified, I think.)
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05:15:12 <zzo38> I also don't like the rule in Magic: the Gathering that double face cards and meld cards cannot be faced down (rules 711.10 and 712.10); it is easily enough to represent, by placing the checklist card face-down on top or by using opaque card sleeves.
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06:52:25 <b_jonas> yep, like I guessed, xkcd's comic today is a tribute to John H. Conway too
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07:38:08 <zzo38> I once dreamt that someone saved the details of a magic trick on their computer, but it saved with a .''' extension which meant that the magic trick was bad.
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08:04:13 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: re "assemble vs has call" => that is the most groanworthy pun that I've read about this pandemic so far
08:04:55 <wib_jonas> int-e: re "Are you sure you want to cancel this operation? [Cancel] [Ok]" => in the 7-zip GUI, when you interrupt a compression operation, it asks the question the same way, but the answers are Yes, No, Cancel
08:06:52 <wib_jonas> int-e: "detonating the Sun to erase all evidence of this ever happening" => please merge it with a few other stars so that it's large enough to go supernova, then we'll get those sweet heavy elements as construction material for our civilization
08:11:47 <wib_jonas> ais523: "are there any natural languages where the natural translations of "yes" and "no" start with the same letter?" => try https://www.omniglot.com/language/phrases/yesnomaybe.htm
08:12:08 <wib_jonas> Ah, fizzie probably looked at the same one
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08:17:10 <wib_jonas> ais523: re Magic, then you could play Magic games in a homebrew format where the pool of cards is restricted to cards older than a certain cutoff date
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10:24:04 <esowiki> [[TinyBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71013&oldid=71011 * LegionMammal978 * (+25) /* External resources */ fixed link
10:24:40 <wib_jonas> I'm re-reading some old forum posts, and ran into a mention of the angels vs devils game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_problem , which is also due to John H. Conway
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10:48:33 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Ttml]] to [[TTML]]: fix capitalization
10:48:33 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Talk:Ttml]] to [[Talk:TTML]]: fix capitalization
10:52:47 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71018&oldid=39935 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
10:54:49 <kspalaiologos> I wonder how inefficient would a mandelbrot fractal viewer be in Malbolge
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11:23:53 <esowiki> [[Uncomment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71019&oldid=32463 * LegionMammal978 * (+36) /* External resources */ fixed link
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11:48:46 <kspalaiologos> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/master/rave/src/rave/pass/ComparisonPass.java <- that's how code ends up when you pretend to write in a functional fashion lmao
11:50:06 <kspalaiologos> because after writing such code, you don't need one
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12:09:57 <esowiki> [[Version2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71020&oldid=33857 * LegionMammal978 * (+36) /* External resources */ fixed link
12:15:46 <esowiki> [[Vowels]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71021&oldid=40963 * LegionMammal978 * (+20) fixed title
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12:32:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71023&oldid=70879 * Sinjoro * (+141)
12:34:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71024&oldid=71023 * Sinjoro * (+49)
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12:46:47 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71026 * Sinjoro * (+680) First Commit
12:47:45 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71027&oldid=71026 * Sinjoro * (+1)
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12:53:45 <esowiki> [[Wiki]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71028&oldid=25347 * LegionMammal978 * (+12) /* External resources */ fixed link
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12:56:27 <tromp> int-e: do you think we can extend the X^V rule to X^V ::= W^V | B^V | <K B^V> ?
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13:06:18 <tromp> actually, that's no good. never mind
13:08:19 <tromp> I noticed that \x. x^2 <K x> could be added to W, but not sure where exactly to add it
13:09:33 <esowiki> [[Worstscript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71029&oldid=55333 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
13:19:14 <esowiki> [[XEec]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71030&oldid=44650 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title
13:20:32 <tromp> int-e: perhaps extend W^V rule to W^V ::= V | W^V <K W^V> | \v. B^({v} ∪ V) ?
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13:23:37 <esowiki> [[XS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71031&oldid=67243 * LegionMammal978 * (+12) /* External resources */ fixed link
13:26:38 <esowiki> [[XTW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71032&oldid=55597 * LegionMammal978 * (+2) fixed link
13:29:20 <int-e> tromp: That would yield (\1 (\1 1)) <K (\1 1)> in B, which terminates.
13:30:55 <tromp> no, it would put that in W
13:31:23 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71033&oldid=71027 * Sinjoro * (+2699) Created the table of instructions
13:31:55 <tromp> actually, the <> could be replaced by any number of nested <> (including 0)
13:33:51 <tromp> so we cauld have W^V ::= V | W^V K^V | \v. B^({v} ∪ V) and add a rule K^V = K W^V | <K^V>
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13:36:00 <esowiki> [[Ybc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71034&oldid=51853 * LegionMammal978 * (+135) fixed code block
13:39:37 <esowiki> [[Yo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71035&oldid=36273 * LegionMammal978 * (-86) fixed code blocks
13:39:39 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71036&oldid=71033 * Sinjoro * (+272)
13:40:20 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71037&oldid=71036 * Sinjoro * (+0)
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13:52:50 <int-e> tromp: Okay, do it like this then: It puts \(\1 1) (\2) into W.
13:54:03 <tromp> don't see how you get that in W
13:56:32 <int-e> Oh, because I shouldn't have the initial lambda.
14:00:33 <tromp> then \2 makes no sense
14:00:56 <int-e> Yes, I have a free variable now.
14:01:13 <tromp> W is set of closed terms?!
14:01:39 <int-e> Yeah I should just stop thinking aloud.
14:02:52 <tromp> conceptually, the extra option for W^V looks ok, since W^V K^V reduces to W^V
14:03:24 <int-e> But you ought to be able to get K^V in front as well, and that'll break things
14:03:48 <int-e> So I don't really believe it. But it's obviously more convoluted than I thought.
14:04:00 <tromp> what do you mean by getting K^V in front?
14:05:06 <tromp> I will make you a believer yet:-)
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14:21:08 <int-e> tromp: here we go then: (\x. x (\_. x) x) (\x\_. x x) is in B. (the second \_ is part of a head context)
14:23:14 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71039&oldid=71037 * Sinjoro * (-4)
14:24:46 <tromp> which is the W^V K^V part?
14:25:20 <int-e> (\_. x) is in K W^{x}
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14:27:05 <int-e> You broke the invariant that elements in V will always become bound to values in W^V' for some V'.
14:27:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71041 * LegionMammal978 * (+139) Created page with "An output command might be useful. ~~~~"
14:27:31 <int-e> So I would've been very much surprised if this had worked out.
14:30:26 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71042&oldid=71039 * Sinjoro * (+40)
14:30:44 <esowiki> [[Golden sunrise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71043&oldid=69856 * Hakerh400 * (-31)
14:32:28 <int-e> I should've been quicker to find that example though, those false attempts were embarrassing.
14:37:55 <tromp> thx for counterexample. W K only gives to a W in head position, where I assumed one at top
14:40:06 <tromp> is there a better way to include \x. x^2 <K x> in W ?
14:41:48 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71044&oldid=71042 * Sinjoro * (+0)
14:42:25 <int-e> tromp: not without changing B. (\x. x (x (\z. z (\_. x)))) (\x\_. x x) has a normal form.
14:43:08 <int-e> by changing B I mean, drop all the head context stuff... you'll get a completely different story then, and tricks like these may just work
14:44:49 <tromp> i mean I could add an option to B^V where it can be W^V^2 <K W^V>
14:46:03 <tromp> hmmm, that's no good
14:46:17 <tromp> i mean v^2 <K v> for v in V
14:46:34 <tromp> but i'm trying to get a little more general
14:47:09 <int-e> I understand the desire, but the W/B thing is extremely delicate already. :)
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14:50:01 <kspalaiologos> it turns out, due to my mistake, on "victims" PC, `rm -rf /bin' is executed
14:50:29 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: you got that by expanding a shell varible that's undefined, right?
14:50:35 <tromp> hope victim is not running as root:)
14:51:00 <b_jonas> like, rm -rf ${installprefix}/bin
14:51:11 <b_jonas> and then ${installprefix} is not defined
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14:54:29 <b_jonas> so how much did it mess up the victim's computer?
14:55:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:2KWLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71045&oldid=70606 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+181)
14:59:03 <tromp> so adding v^2 <K v> for v in V in B is no good either, since v can be bound to your \x -> K (x x) ?!
15:00:32 <esowiki> [[2KWLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71046&oldid=70272 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) quote fix, etc
15:05:52 <esowiki> [[XENBLN/Commands]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71047 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17684) Created page with "| This language was designed to have minimal errors. | Note: If a command takes an integer or float/double as a parameter, it will try to convert those parameters to integers,..."
15:06:21 <esowiki> [[XENBLN/Commands]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71048&oldid=71047 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+67)
15:07:10 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71049&oldid=70441 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-44) /* Commands */
15:07:51 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: sure, but just coreutils is not enough
15:08:08 <kspalaiologos> I pasted him over a snippet that will reinstall all the packages hes got already
15:08:46 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: but down in the line that will probably try to run something from /bin during installation
15:09:47 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: you need bash and/or dash and probably more
15:10:12 <b_jonas> the installer scripts will try to run sh, not zsh
15:11:23 <int-e> reminds me of the day I uninstalled libacl from my gentoo system
15:11:50 <int-e> (that broke most of coreutils)
15:12:57 <b_jonas> oh, I recall when I accidentally uninstalled X from the package manager by asking to uninstall what turns out to be a dependency, running startx, and it did nothing with no error or log message. it turns out that the package manager just symlinks X to false if neither Xfree86 or X.org is installed or some such nonsense.
15:13:13 <b_jonas> yes, that was back when XFree86 was an option
15:22:17 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71050&oldid=71003 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+140)
15:24:45 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71051&oldid=71044 * Sinjoro * (+104)
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15:37:22 <b_jonas> well obviously it was a newer version
15:40:26 <b_jonas> and it's quite possible that XFree86 wasn't actually available at that time already, but the alternative symlink system was still in place for historical reasons
15:40:44 <b_jonas> I have actually used XFree86 at some point though, back before I knew about X.org either
15:44:37 <fizzie> #esoteric predates X.org.
15:45:01 <fizzie> Assuming Wikipedia's "Initial release: 6 April 2004" is accurate, anyway.
15:45:47 <b_jonas> we should falsify a few more years of back history to #esoteric and HackE?o by the way
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15:46:31 <b_jonas> "Welcome to the international center for esoteric language design, development and deployment, established in 1873."
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15:55:24 <Taneb> b_jonas: I think the opposite, we should be founded in the future
15:55:38 <b_jonas> Taneb: hmm, that's an interesting option too
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16:02:59 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71052&oldid=71051 * Sinjoro * (+24) /* Powers of 2 */
16:03:53 <kspalaiologos> that's actually amazing to see the traffic on the wiki
16:04:00 <kspalaiologos> and the fact that there are actually 100 connections to this channel
16:05:09 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71053&oldid=70997 * Sinjoro * (+17)
16:08:58 <int-e> without fungot too
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16:13:09 <esowiki> [[And]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71054&oldid=70648 * LegionMammal978 * (-9) updated link again
16:13:11 <esowiki> [[Cheers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71055&oldid=70646 * LegionMammal978 * (+0) updated link again
16:13:13 <esowiki> [[Duck Duck Goose]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71056&oldid=70645 * LegionMammal978 * (+0) updated link again
16:13:14 <esowiki> [[Noodle Soup]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71057&oldid=70647 * LegionMammal978 * (+0) updated link again
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16:14:26 <Taneb> b_jonas: another option is we are established right now
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17:09:53 <Taneb> Eh, people have lives
17:22:08 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71058&oldid=71052 * Sinjoro * (+113) added Fibonacci sequence
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17:30:00 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Willicoder * New user account
17:31:51 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71059&oldid=71058 * Sinjoro * (+540)
17:31:54 <fizzie> And how long have we been fungot-deficient.
17:32:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71060&oldid=71025 * Willicoder * (+403)
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17:34:41 <fizzie> fungot: How are you feeling?
17:34:41 <fungot> fizzie: this hasn't been so important in the overall organization and they're thinking about removing lambda in version 3, with scheme48 as some fnord infty
17:35:06 <fizzie> All subsystems nominal, I guess.
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17:56:23 <ais523> luckily HackEso has mostly been picking up the slack
18:17:03 <arseniiv> fungot: as some fnord infty => I’d very like to meet that kind of infty
18:17:03 <fungot> arseniiv: i dropped the libertarian thing when i was using
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18:22:26 <fungot> kspalaiologos: be back in
18:26:33 <fizzie> From a strictly technical sense & for fungot specifically, it's any infrequent word. There's a feature in the language model training to replace all with less than N occurrences with a special "UNK" token, which can generally speaking result in better (in terms of a performance-to-size tradeoff) models for analysis, but of course in synthesis the bot has to say *something* when the UNK token happens to
18:26:34 <fungot> fizzie: julia is forcer's sweetie.). it already uses autotools? is that from
18:32:10 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71061&oldid=70920 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6)
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18:46:44 <arseniiv> fungot: fnord fnord fnord fnord fnord
18:46:44 <fungot> arseniiv: where a/ b: a-b, fnord, write it. and when i rebooted and tried it again, this time with good cause i need to
18:49:03 <esowiki> [[Underload/Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71062&oldid=70983 * CatIsFluffy * (-13) Optimizations
18:51:24 <esowiki> [[Underload/Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71063&oldid=71062 * CatIsFluffy * (-2) Someday I will actually fix this before saving changes
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18:55:54 <esowiki> [[Perception]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71064 * Baidicoot * (+452) Created page with "= Perception = This is a WIP (by which I mean 'I am currently trying to see if this language is a duplicate') Esolang where the user percives the language as one that can solv..."
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19:02:21 <esowiki> [[Eso2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71065&oldid=70734 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* Resources */ cat add
19:04:37 <esowiki> [[LogicF---]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71066&oldid=70708 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+72)
19:05:37 <esowiki> [[Nybblang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71067&oldid=70096 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-6) /* Commands */
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19:06:12 <esowiki> [[Nybblang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71068&oldid=71067 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Turing-Complete Nybblang */ memory is like a stack
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19:09:11 <esowiki> [[ROTfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71069&oldid=70546 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+126)
19:10:58 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71070&oldid=71059 * Sinjoro * (-10) /* Print Function */
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19:28:32 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71071&oldid=71050 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+56) /* Infinite cat program */
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19:58:20 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71072&oldid=71012 * Hdjensofjfnen * (-1) /* Microscript */
19:58:43 <esowiki> [[Microscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71073&oldid=65647 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+1) /* Truth-machine (3 bytes) */
19:58:53 <esowiki> [[Microscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71074&oldid=71073 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+0) /* Truth-machine (3 bytes) */
19:59:14 <esowiki> [[Microscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71075&oldid=71074 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+0)
20:00:15 <esowiki> [[Microscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71076&oldid=71075 * Hdjensofjfnen * (-1) /* Truth-machine (4 bytes) */ Shoot, I forgot this was implicit
20:00:44 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71077&oldid=71072 * Hdjensofjfnen * (-1) /* Microscript */
20:10:05 <Sgeo_> Would it be possible to make a simple assembly language that compiles to FRACTRAN?
20:13:59 <ais523> well, based on TCness it's definitely /possible/, the question is more as to how efficient the resulting language is and how direct the compilation is
20:14:46 <ais523> that said, asms for The Waterfall Model seem reasonably easy to write, and there's a more or less direct TWM → Fractran compilation (although the resulting Fractran probably isn't very idiomatic)
20:16:40 <zzo38> I should think to specify names by factors by prime numbers or whatever
20:32:18 <b_jonas> oh btw, this comment mentions J. H. Conway running a fractran program that presumably he wrote => https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2020/04/12/john-conway/#comment-552187
20:32:37 <b_jonas> one that finds prime numbers
20:33:29 <b_jonas> I guess I should link that from the wiki page
20:34:57 <esowiki> [[Fractran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71078&oldid=62112 * B jonas * (+202) /* External resources */
20:44:33 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71079&oldid=71071 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+303) /* Examples */
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21:07:26 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71080&oldid=71079 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+52)
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00:30:58 <A35> fungot: Sdofg
00:30:59 <fungot> A35: r2q2 is the wind behind my back. i use ultraedit and notepad++.)
00:31:21 <A35> fungot: Who invented Sdofg?
00:31:21 <fungot> A35: the option type is a type ( stm t), what should i say
00:31:34 <A35> fungot: Why did they invent Sdofg?
00:31:34 <fungot> A35: hmm you're right caseium... pltcollects doesn't work anything like a union in java. some people here have websites in dmoz?
00:32:13 <A35> fungot: How does Sfofg work like?
00:32:13 <fungot> A35: the moral of the story but the whole point of this thing called ' considering going outside'
00:33:20 <A35> I didn't know how Sdofg was useful in the first place.
00:34:05 <A35> fungot: Do you like to get recorded into the logs?
00:34:52 <A35> fungot: Got↔Fun
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00:38:25 <the> I chose the most frequent English word as my name.
00:38:42 <the> This enables me to be nosy about every single message.
00:39:52 <the> Wait, I start to get notifications from one year ago!
00:44:12 <the> When an edit is started, if you click preview, the edit is modified by a bot.
00:44:33 <the> If you submit the edit though, your content is being edited by another bot.
00:44:49 <the> You consistently recieve edits to your userpages by bots.
00:45:10 <the> Unfortunately the system has hid all these bot edits because you've turned them off.
00:45:44 <the> Once these bots edit your computer's memory you won't be able to edit anymore.
00:46:21 <the> These bots don't exist in any memory and always affects you.
00:46:55 <the> Which means that you can not use any software to delete them.
00:48:09 <the> Since I'm basically saying nonsense I'd invite fungot.
00:48:09 <fungot> the: i have ironed my shirt once already today, minion!
00:48:55 <the> For example, Bots like fungot don't really exist anywhere but on the Internet.
00:48:56 <fungot> the: and it's some unicode char like _ but at the moment, so i can fold them into a memory address
00:49:15 <the> If you try to search for fungot in your computer you won't be able to find anything.
00:50:02 <the> However, these bots are really powerful. E.g. fungot has already posted 1 million messages here already!
00:50:02 <fungot> the: lemme check if i'm just an outsider, eh :-p) if that's what you told
00:51:00 <the> Although you only see fungot posting inside the chatroom, they secretly edit wiki pages!
00:51:43 <the> Like most other bots, fungot randomly edits wiki pages without the system's notice.
00:52:44 <the> Don't believe it? If you drag fungot's username onto the Desktop your computer will immediately be unusable.
01:06:10 <zzo38> Are you using Windows?
01:11:49 <the> zzo38: Yes.
01:12:14 <zzo38> Well, that explains it, then.
01:12:40 <the> Explains what?
01:13:09 <zzo38> Why if you drag fungot's username onto the Desktop your computer will immediately be unusable.
01:13:09 <fungot> zzo38: so actors don't get access to those nice macros to help make an icfp contest team? ( you're on both channels, i see
01:13:20 <zzo38> I use Linux, so there is no "Desktop", so it doesn't apply to me.
01:14:18 <the> zzo38: I was just saying nonsense. Before that message I verified twice to make sure that the username is not draggable.
01:14:39 <the> Even if you dragged it, it will pretty much do nothing to your computer.
01:14:58 <zzo38> That depends what IRC client you are using whether or not it is draggable, I think.
01:17:34 <zzo38> (Although I don't know if any IRC client allows dragging usernames)
01:23:22 <zzo38> Do you like custom Magic: the Gathering cards and puzzles?
01:24:33 <the> I dislike esolangs in general.
01:25:15 <the> Other than, for some reason, golfing languages.
01:25:39 <zzo38> O. Well, there are a few golfing languages.
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01:33:51 <the> zzo38: Go ahead.
01:34:10 <zzo38> Go ahead to do what?
01:34:58 <the> zzo38: What's your purpose of mentioning "there are a few golfing languages" then?
01:35:40 <zzo38> There is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Golfing_language
01:35:51 <zzo38> (or make up your own)
01:35:51 <imode> if you dislike esolangs, why are you here.
01:36:18 <zzo38> Code golf can be made with other programming languages too, though.
01:36:35 <are> imode: yes?
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02:09:40 <pikhq> Goodness it has been a long time since I actually esolanged.
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02:46:10 <zzo38> Will you do again today, though?
03:00:13 <pikhq> It's hard working up the energy for more tech stuff after spending a day job doing tech stuff
03:00:48 <pikhq> And frankly Kubernetes-brand YAML feels like an esolang some days
03:37:43 <esowiki> [[Octo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71081 * Apollyon094 * (+2151) Created page with "{{lowercase}} {{infobox proglang |name=Octal Composite Turing-complete OISCs |author=[[Asher I]] |year=[[:Category:2020|2020]] |memsys=tape-based |dimensions=one-dimensional |..."
03:38:38 <esowiki> [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71082&oldid=71081 * Apollyon094 * (-16)
03:39:09 <esowiki> [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71083&oldid=71082 * Apollyon094 * (-24)
03:39:32 <esowiki> [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71084&oldid=71083 * Apollyon094 * (+8)
03:40:23 <esowiki> [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71085&oldid=71084 * Apollyon094 * (+0)
03:40:46 <esowiki> [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71086&oldid=71085 * Apollyon094 * (+13)
03:41:36 <esowiki> [[Asher I]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71087 * Apollyon094 * (+30) Redirected page to [[User:Apollyon094]]
03:43:08 <esowiki> [[User:Apollyon094]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71088&oldid=70438 * Apollyon094 * (+86)
03:44:01 <esowiki> [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71089&oldid=71086 * Apollyon094 * (+0)
03:44:15 <esowiki> [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71090&oldid=71089 * Apollyon094 * (+0)
03:44:34 <esowiki> [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71091&oldid=71090 * Apollyon094 * (+1)
03:45:25 <esowiki> [[User:Apollyon094]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71092&oldid=71088 * Apollyon094 * (+113)
03:53:02 <esowiki> [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71093&oldid=71091 * Apollyon094 * (+114)
03:53:20 <esowiki> [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71094&oldid=71093 * Apollyon094 * (+1)
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04:40:43 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Watermelon3D * New user account
04:44:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71095&oldid=71060 * Watermelon3D * (+163) /* Introductions */
04:56:57 <Sgeo_> The Wikipedia page on FRACTRAN feels so much more illuminating than the esolang wiki page
05:17:50 <esowiki> [[FishScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71096 * Watermelon3D * (+4904) FishScript is a fish-based language.
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06:26:25 <esowiki> [[FishScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71097&oldid=71096 * Watermelon3D * (+153)
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06:29:07 <esowiki> [[FishScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71098&oldid=71097 * Watermelon3D * (+23)
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08:57:23 <b_jonas> `ioccclist http://www.ioccc.org/index.html Due to current world events, we are extending the 27th IOCCC until 2020-May-15 06:26:49 UTC
08:57:24 <HackEso> ioccclist http://www.ioccc.org/index.html Due to current world events, we are extending the 27th IOCCC until 2020-May-15 06:26:49 UTC: b_jonas rain2 rain1
09:02:38 <int-e> oh kspalaiologos found my easter-egg
09:03:06 <int-e> the one I planted in the topic :P
09:03:26 <int-e> (that's why it has a hyphen)
09:04:02 <int-e> Well the 5th word is also egg-inspired.
09:05:02 <int-e> But Easter is over, so maybe it's just egg-spired now.
09:07:02 <fizzie> Egg-spire sounds like a Minecraft construction.
09:08:09 <int-e> hmm, stacking eggs
09:08:49 <int-e> maybe you could build a bridge out of eggs and then you could walk on eggshells
09:18:31 <esowiki> [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71099&oldid=71070 * Sinjoro * (+21) /* Commands */
09:21:28 <Taneb> b_jonas: alternative idea: we are established in the ever moving now
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09:40:59 <int-e> Taneb: the twist to that story is, maybe it's not moving at all.
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10:05:10 <int-e> . o O ( Modern clickbait... "10 things you don't care about and never will" )
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10:33:44 <rain1> https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2020/04/finally-we-may-have-a-path-to-the-fundamental-theory-of-physics-and-its-beautiful/
10:35:49 <wib_jonas> zzo38: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/comprehensive-rules-changes-2020-04-10
10:36:01 <wib_jonas> it mentions fuse counters explicitly
10:36:56 <wib_jonas> re https://esolangs.org/logs/2020-04-02.html#lkc
10:38:46 <int-e> . o O ( "As long as this card is in play, "fuse" is a valid counter subtype." )
10:42:45 <wib_jonas> also, lands printed with three basic land types
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10:50:37 <int-e> . o O ( L-systems failed to describe nature... let's try graph rewriting instead. )
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11:34:28 <Taneb> `quote Stephen Wolfram
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11:55:04 <HackEso> 618) <oerjan> wolfram armageddon, the genius overlord game \ 1027) <kmc> would not be surprised to find out this tumblr is guerilla marketing by wolfram co to sell mathematica to stoners \ 1105) <Phantom_Hoover> i find some deep satisfaction in the fact that the legacy wolfram will leave is as the man who made calculus homework orders of magnitude easier
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14:14:25 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ardie]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71103 * Ardie * (+45) Created page with "I'm here looking for a language to formalize."
14:19:20 <esowiki> [[User talk:RocketRace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71104&oldid=69595 * Ardie * (+158)
14:19:37 <esowiki> [[User talk:RocketRace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71105&oldid=71104 * Ardie * (+2)
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15:25:43 <tromp> int-e: do you know how our BB programs deal with (\1 1) (\\1 (2 2)) ?
15:29:01 <zzo38> wib_jonas: I have seen that. However, I should wait to see when the rules are actually published, to know what they are (although about mutate and companion is mainly what I want to look for; my questions about ability counters have been answered in that document already)
15:29:23 <int-e> tromp: that's just a simple loop?
15:29:56 <int-e> tromp: T = (\\1 (2 2)), T T -> \1 (T T) and the (T T) is the next redex.
15:30:55 <wib_jonas> zzo38: as for the new rules for mutate and companion, the release notes tells most of that: "https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/ikoria-lair-behemoths-and-commander-2020-edition-release-notes-2020-04-10"
15:32:08 <arseniiv> the pau day is 06-10 (recalculated from 04-71)
15:32:52 <zzo38> int-e: Easter isn't over.
15:32:57 <tromp> int-e: but it's not detected with isW ?
15:33:22 <zzo38> wib_jonas: O, I didn't see that. Now I can see.
15:37:01 <int-e> tromp: it shouldn't be.
15:37:02 <zzo38> In the past I have generalized haunt, so that cards that are now haunt will become "haunt creature", but allowing new haunt cards to haunt other objects and/or players (it is not limited to permanents). So I thought also of a similar thing with mutate, where existing mutate becomes "mutate non-Human creature" (mutate is limited to permanents, though).
15:37:38 <tromp> int-e: and it's not detected with r `S.member` s ?
15:38:02 <int-e> tromp: it should be detected there.
15:39:10 <tromp> i thought s collects the whole terms in a reduction
15:39:39 <int-e> It collects redexes... the T T redex, which occurs again.
15:43:53 <zzo38> The "unusual situations" described for mutate seem to follow from the other rules, merely being clarification.
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15:46:48 <tromp> int-e: after hacking my program, it reports (\1 1) (\1 (1 (\\1 1) 1)) as unknown, which i didn't see before
15:47:32 <tromp> doesn't come up as TODO in yours either
15:47:57 <int-e> I think I have seen that one before
15:48:31 <int-e> +-- TODO: (\1 1) (\1 (1 (\1) 1) 1)
15:48:38 <int-e> from the first BB.txt commit.
15:48:47 <int-e> So, that's different.
15:49:52 <tromp> that has id in it, this has (K double) in it
15:49:52 <int-e> tromp: But I have seen quite a bit of trouble resulting from interaction of the loop detection and simplification.
15:50:01 <int-e> 17:48:47 <int-e> So, that's different.
15:51:15 <int-e> Also I'm not working on any of this right now.
15:53:21 <zzo38> Even if fuse counters did grant fuse, fuse isn't a meaningful ability for permanents anyways. But I still like explicit ability counters such as "flying ability counter" instead.
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15:58:04 <wib_jonas> zzo38: yes, the echo counters were slightly more worrying to me. but the update bullet says that it clears that up.
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15:59:46 <wib_jonas> zzo38: I don't like that wording though. "flying ability counter" sounds ok, but it sounds worse with some of the other relevant keyword abilities
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16:18:56 <b_jonas> should we put the IOCCC news to the topic?
16:19:02 <zzo38> wib_jonas: Another possibility is to add quotation marks if it doesn't look good without it, I suppose. (This would also be used for parameterized keyword abilities and that stuff)
16:19:32 <b_jonas> I guess that's old news, it's dated to three weeks before now
16:35:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: another possibility would be to call them something other than "counters", even if they mostly behave like counters, which would be useful because "counter" is an overloaded word anyway
16:36:16 <zzo38> Yes, perhaps. But I don't know what to call it.
16:38:46 <zzo38> Also, even if I use that in my unofficial cards I probably would not change it, since I don't want to make too many major incompatible changes to existing rules.
16:40:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: they need not be incompatible if you say that it's just a different wording, like a synonym
16:41:48 <b_jonas> an incompatibility would be when a game situation that can come up in both your variant and vanilla diverges to a different game state
16:49:07 <b_jonas> on the plus side, we finally have payoff for the old rules change that turned lifelink to be no longer a trigger on the damage
16:50:46 <b_jonas> Ikoria has lifelink counters, and multiple of them on the are mostly redundant (except to costs or effects that consume an arbitrary counter from a permanent, eg. Medicine Runner or Power Conduit)
17:02:45 <zzo38> Yes, although there are other advantages to that change of lifelink too
17:06:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure: surviving combat more often because you gain life from your lifelink blocker knights the same time as you lose life from the opponent's creatures combat damage
17:14:46 <zzo38> Maybe "rune" can mean ability counter. (I think I have seen some other games using "rune" in this way. The problem with this is if "rune" becomes a new type or subtype.)
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00:02:59 <Sgeo_> "If you dont know, Fractran is an esoteric programming language. That means it is extraordinary difficult to write any program in Fractran."
00:03:08 <Sgeo_> I feel like it's immediately critical to disprove it.
00:03:19 <Sgeo_> HQ9+ depending on program desired?
00:03:57 <Sgeo_> Also it might say something not great about me that I instantly desired to nitpick the ascribed meaning of esoteric programming language
00:04:26 <Sgeo_> https://malisper.me/building-fizzbuzz-fractran-bottom/
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02:08:39 <zzo38> The article about category theory on Wikipedia does not mention category of matrices, it look like to me.
02:37:26 <esowiki> [[Chicken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71115&oldid=59475 * Watermelon3D * (+107)
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04:09:36 <b_jonas> in English, is there a rude or taboo word matching /^([klmnrst][aiu]|[aiu][klmnrst]){2}/i , including a misspelled word that could still be considered rude like "fukc", but other than "kaka"? I'm trying to make a human-typable encoding for something, but want to make sure it won't result in words that people may consider insulting. "kaka" doesn't matter because repeated syllables are not allowed.
04:09:53 <b_jonas> If there is, I can change those set of letters (while keeping the cardinality).
04:12:21 <zzo38> I don't know, but does PCRE have a way to specify that this repetition is not allowed? Also, do you need the set of letters to be same regardless of the order?
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05:22:09 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71119&oldid=71118 * RocketRace * (+54) Fix link formatting
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06:01:24 <lambdabot> spruit11 said 6d 10h 45m 19s ago: Could, or would, you be so kind to support an arxiv submission of a paper I wrote?
06:02:30 <oerjan> spruit11: i have never submitted to arxiv, and haven't had an academic position in nearly two decades, so i don't think i'm eligible.
06:02:54 <oerjan> @tell spruit11 i have never submitted to arxiv, and haven't had an academic position in nearly two decades, so i don't think i'm eligible.
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06:31:09 <esowiki> [[Subleq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71121&oldid=67339 * LorryWoodman * (+10) Correct TechTinkering URL
06:31:27 <oerjan> <Taneb> So, Agatha's being reminded of the waters of the Dyne in today's GG, right? <-- i thought so, i was basically expecting the next strips to suggest the Dyne _was_ the cause (assuming the true source of the Dyne is outside the time bubble, it can't flow through the castle's curse-extraction machinery anymore)
06:32:05 <oerjan> but that was several strips ago, and nothing said
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07:07:36 <A-ee> Just like you can't fold a sheet of printing paper over 7 times.
07:08:05 <A-ee> But by the time you get to that, you are obviously doing something wrong. :)
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08:48:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: I could write a regex that doesn't allow repetitions, but I wanted my question to be human-readable, so I didn't
08:51:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: same regardless the order: yes. this is for representing the moves in a board game, in a video game implementation. there's a board that is a square grid of size 7x3, a player chooses two distinct squares for their move. I want to label the columns and rows, and the players will represent that move towards my software by typing four letters. it's enough to always write the squares with the column
08:51:48 <b_jonas> consonant first and the row vowel after,
08:52:09 <b_jonas> and that's how I'll print moves, but I want the game to be easily usable without much of a learning curve, so I want to accept the other order too.
08:53:45 <b_jonas> so my current plan is to label the columns KLMNRST and the rows AIU, but I have a lot of freedom here
08:57:36 <kritixilithos> `grep -E '^([klmnrst][aiu]|[aiu][klmnrst]){2}$' /usr/dict/words|grep na|head -1
08:57:37 <HackEso> grep: invalid option -- ' ' \ Usage: grep [OPTION]... PATTERNS [FILE]... \ Try 'grep --help' for more information.
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09:10:36 <ais523> b_jonas: is there any reason you can't use letter-digit pairs?
09:10:45 <ais523> that's the usual solution to this problem
09:11:21 <ais523> that said, I think most swearwords in English are consonant-heavy, but I think potentially offensive combinations are almost impossible to avoid because of all the languages they could be potentially offensive in
09:11:30 <ais523> (it's not enough to just avoid /English/ swearwords)
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09:45:00 <b_jonas> ais523: I could use letter-digit pairs too, yes
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09:47:07 <b_jonas> ais523: but some of the audience is fluent in leetspeak and replacing letters with digits, so even with digits you have to be careful. the move could spell K1K3 or something.
09:49:18 <b_jonas> I could even go with digits only, with 3456789 for the columns and 123 for the rows.
09:50:37 <ais523> surely you want 0 in there to avoid the duplicated 3?
09:51:05 <b_jonas> why? what's wrong with a duplicated 3?
09:54:03 <b_jonas> I could go with a boring ABCDEFG for columns and 123 for the rows. it works for chess so it can't be too offensive.
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09:55:34 <ais523> b_jonas: you'd have an ambiguity if /two/ digits were duplicated; there's no ambiguity with one digit duplicated but it may be hard to mentally parse because you don't know what a 3 means without looking at the other one
09:56:27 <b_jonas> that's true. I plan to display the moves visually on the board, so mental parsing isn't too much of a problem, but it might still be better to avoid.
09:56:39 <ais523> and in chess you occasionally get ambiguites that need to be resolved as, say, Rcc3 and R3c3, a duplicated 3 would make that sort of ambiguity even more confusing to resolve
09:58:01 <b_jonas> in chess notation, yes. this isn't chess notation and there are no kings and rooks and bishops and knights.
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10:41:44 <int-e> oh fungot is here, rejoice
10:41:44 <fungot> int-e: my parser doesn't do character classes, so harder for anyone but him why shouldn't he do that
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12:29:02 <tromp> int-e: what output would you expect from print $ nf $ let lid = Abs (Var 0) in Abs (App (Var 0) (Abs lid)) `App` lid ?
12:29:35 <tromp> would you expect Nothing?
12:35:22 <tromp> or even simpler, from print $ nf $ App (Abs (App (Var 0) (Var 0))) (Abs (Var 0)) ?
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12:49:13 <Elderberry> Is the room usually active, or often dead?
12:52:38 <tromp> int-e: the problem is that simplify ends up doing the reduction that is later done by nf, and then nf seeing a repeating redex
12:53:24 <tromp> here's my debugging output for illustration:
12:53:29 <tromp> (\1 1) (\1) simplifies to \1
12:53:29 <tromp> r = \1 case \1 1 of
12:53:33 <tromp> (\1) (\1) simplifies to \1
12:53:37 <tromp> repeating redex \1
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12:57:02 <pimlu> hey guys, for anyone who has an interest in FRACTRAN, I made a really fast FRACTRAN interpreter
12:57:29 <pimlu> it should make more classes of programs runnable than previously was possible
12:57:33 <pimlu> https://pimlu.github.io/fractran/
12:58:23 <int-e> tromp: I would not expect it to terminate on infinite terms, precisely because simplification is pretty eager
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12:59:02 <tromp> it mistakes a term with normal form for one without
12:59:35 <tromp> i'm gonna try to do the simplification at start of nf, before the case analysis
13:00:08 <int-e> I just should not IRC before waking up.
13:00:23 <int-e> (never mind that it's the middle of the afternoon)
13:00:45 <tromp> that seems to work better
13:01:00 <tromp> enjoy your coffee:-)
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13:02:51 <int-e> So what you're saying is that I have a bug.
13:04:31 <tromp> yes. my bugfix produces lots more TODOs
13:04:40 <int-e> probably connected to simplifying redexrs before adding them to the list of seen redexes.
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13:05:47 <pimlu> ahhh man the font is messed up in the help menu. no such thing as releasing without bugs
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13:10:49 <int-e> tromp: I undid the offending change (which I never intended to commit in the first place... but it happened and I thought the code was kind of okay at that point)
13:11:13 <int-e> the dangers of commit -a
13:17:07 <pimlu> okay, should be fixed now. anyway, the fast interpreter uses big integers for the register values
13:17:17 <pimlu> (and can actually run for example, 2^100 iterations of some programs)
13:22:50 <int-e> tromp: reverted the corresponding list in BB.txt as well
13:25:46 <int-e> tromp: Sorry about that. I had played with the code one very late evening and ended up with something I no longer understood.
13:27:07 <int-e> But I had no intention of committing it so I thought that was fine.
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13:30:39 <tromp> the revert doesn't support B^V = W^V B^V anymore?
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13:42:44 <tromp> int-e: your current BBx bombs with a BBx: BBx.lhs:(25,3)-(27,29): Non-exhaustive patterns in function size
13:43:23 <kspalaiologos> everytime I see a word elderberry, I automatically think of Monthy Python's "your mother was a hamster and your father smells of elderberries"
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13:55:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71124&oldid=71120 * Elderberry * (+273)
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15:17:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:FishScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71125 * Willicoder * (+156) Created page with "What does "doubles the fish in front of it" mean? (with the tilde) ~~~~"
15:35:36 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71126&oldid=70992 * Palaiologos * (+79) newest instruction format
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16:05:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:FishScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71127&oldid=71125 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+441)
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16:31:31 <int-e> tromp: there is no BBx.lhs
16:32:00 <int-e> tromp: or, if there is, it's yours, not mine.
16:36:23 <tromp> int-e: i had one, but renamed it. and now when i do ghc --make BBx.hs, it somehow compiles my other program and calls it ./BBx
16:37:44 <tromp> sorry for false alarm
16:42:12 <int-e> tromp: maybe it's a timestamp problem? BBx.hs older than BBx.hi and BBx.o...
16:44:36 <int-e> It's a possibility at least... which is kind of funny because nowadays, the recompilation check is intelligent enough to catch changes in optimization flags.
16:44:58 <int-e> But apparently the source file name is not on the list of criteria :)
16:45:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:2KWLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71128&oldid=71045 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12) better wiki style
16:45:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:FishScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71129&oldid=71127 * Willicoder * (+160)
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16:59:15 <int-e> tromp: And right, the revert dropped all changes, including the (sound) extension to W.
16:59:59 <int-e> I'm not in a good mindset to think about this, so I just reverted to a known safe version.
17:14:03 <b_jonas> I'm happy, I may have found a deterministic reproduction of the frequent crashes of the software we use at work. Tomorrow I'll have to work to reduce it to as small as I can.
17:15:16 <b_jonas> sorry, wrong channel for the last line
17:19:06 <int-e> fungot: what beam was that?
17:19:06 <fungot> int-e: i think i'd prefer a way of thinking. be careful though... scheme is killin' me here!!
17:19:31 <int-e> that one was pretty good.
17:19:45 <HackEso> boily:“Sane Mapoleon” boily is monetizing a brotherhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine. He is also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken, a METARologist, seriously lacking in the f-word department, a thwack doctor, a Quintopial antipodist, and a renowned Capitalist who helps keep the world kafkaesque. \ ciol:ciol is a language designed by moon_, it started as a scheme to annoy colleagues by making a programming
17:20:54 <HackEso> 2/3:ing language that has insults as commands. \ cipation:A cipation is an evil scheme that only works if no one is prepared for it. \ keming:Keming is a text compression scheme popular in Word processors. \ madbr:madbr alternates between making sense, and being logical. He doesn't monetize the brotherhood scheme. \ oregon:Oregon is the home of Oregano. Gregor used to take care of the color scheme, but then he left. \ taah:TaAH (Terrible and A
17:20:59 <HackEso> 3/3:d-Hoc) is the naming scheme used for HackEso commands. It is highly acronymous and portmantic.
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17:23:10 <esowiki> [[AT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71130&oldid=70100 * Hakerh400 * (+52) Add pronunciation
17:25:59 <esowiki> [[AT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71131&oldid=71130 * Hakerh400 * (-2)
17:26:47 <esowiki> [[AT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71132&oldid=71131 * Hakerh400 * (+16)
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18:19:20 <arseniiv> there is a Rihanna song with this name
18:26:13 <spruit11> I wanted to submit some thingy I wrote to arxiv and need an endorser. But who?
18:26:29 <spruit11> Apparently not oerjan. Bummer.
18:26:54 <zzo38> Maybe try viXra if you cannot post on arXiv, I suppose.
18:28:43 <spruit11> Hmm. I'ld rather not, I guess.
18:29:01 <esowiki> [[FishScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71133&oldid=71122 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+125) /* Interpreters */ Added Willicoder's repo
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18:33:20 <zzo38> I don't konw if there is any prohibition against posting on viXra and then later post on arXiv too once you have an endorser.
18:35:15 <zzo38> O, I looked at the instructions and it says it is OK, apparently.
18:35:58 <spruit11> Yah, but it doesn't make sense to me.
18:36:06 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71134&oldid=71061 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+59) Removed redirect to [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]]
18:36:27 <spruit11> I mean, I can post it on Facebook too.
18:36:57 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71135&oldid=71134 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+164)
18:37:40 <spruit11> But then, there's nobody there who would really care.
18:39:36 <zzo38> What is the document about?
18:40:20 <spruit11> It's a bit of a lowbrow document about how my language, Egel, evaluates stuff.
18:41:08 <spruit11> https://github.com/egel-lang/egel-tex/blob/master/semantics/semantics.pdf
18:41:38 <zzo38> I see nothing about subset of PDF to use, except that it should not embed executable files, but I think that they should be limited to a better subset, because many of the features of PDF is no good.
18:43:26 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71136&oldid=71112 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+416)
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19:07:07 <esowiki> [[Indent]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71137&oldid=70993 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Int literals */
19:07:17 <spruit11> Maybe I'll ask in #proglangdesign?
19:07:28 <esowiki> [[Indent]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71138&oldid=71137 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* Examples */
19:08:31 <esowiki> [[Indent]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71139&oldid=71138 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) /* Functions */
19:08:43 <esowiki> [[Indent]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71140&oldid=71139 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-8) /* Examples */
19:10:17 <esowiki> [[Indent]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71141&oldid=71140 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+118) /* Variables */
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19:15:05 <esowiki> [[String]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71142&oldid=66282 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-30) Fixed links
19:20:14 <esowiki> [[String-rewriting paradigm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71143&oldid=56716 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) fixed link; should this not be a concept article?
19:25:34 <esowiki> [[String rewriting paradigm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71144&oldid=68285 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+79) template + cats
19:25:44 <esowiki> [[String rewriting paradigm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71145&oldid=71144 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) template fix
19:31:37 <esowiki> [[String-rewriting paradigm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71146&oldid=71143 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+128)
19:32:25 <esowiki> [[String-rewriting paradigm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71147&oldid=71146 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22) /* Examples */
19:32:53 <esowiki> [[User:Willicoder]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71148 * Willicoder * (+188) Created page with "Hi! I'm Willicoder and I love to code! I made an interpreter for [[FishScript]], and I might make an esolang someday. If you want to contact me, use User_talk:Willicoder|my..."
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20:45:43 <esowiki> [[Strvar]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71149 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1838) Created page with "'''Strvar''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] based on [[string]] [[rewriting]]. ==Syntax== Every line in a Strvar program is either a variable definition or..."
20:46:47 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71150&oldid=71077 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+202) /* Strvar */
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20:49:30 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71151&oldid=70960 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Languages */
20:50:12 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71152&oldid=71100 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* S */
21:15:51 <zzo38> What is the most number of pieces to give check at once in xiangqi? I made up a quadruple check.
21:20:12 <Sgeo> proc lambda {arguments body args} {
21:20:12 <Sgeo> return [list ::apply [list $arguments $body] {*}$args]
21:20:35 <zzo38> What programming language is it?
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22:32:15 <tromp> int-e: my current BB.lhs has only 1 TODO at 32, 2 at 33 and 34 each
22:33:14 <tromp> using generalized W rule, triple loop detection, and argument reduction on strict functions
22:33:46 <tromp> also found no slowdown of lists instead of S.Set
22:34:37 <tromp> will try 35 tomorrow, after dental visit
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00:23:00 <pikhq> Yeah, that's pretty Tcl alright
00:47:18 <Sgeo> "pretty Tcl" as in, that Tcl snippit looks nice, or "pretty Tcl" as in, that snippit is very Tcl-like?
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01:49:32 <zzo38> Can you make TeX to keep a question mark on the same page as the beginning of the sentence it belongs to? I can think of a few possibilities, but have not tried it.
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02:26:31 <zzo38> Do you know Setext? Like Markdown and reStructuredText, it is made to be readable without specialized software. However, Wikipedia lists the MIME type only for Markdown.
02:31:27 <esowiki> [[Underload/Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71153&oldid=71063 * CatIsFluffy * (+2972) Because 131 wasn't enough
02:34:25 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71154&oldid=70818 * CatIsFluffy * (+316) /* Adding Underload numbers */ new section
03:46:59 <pikhq> Sgeo: The snippet is Tcl, and rather elegant
03:48:23 <imode> any of y'all ever play a MOO/MUSH/MUCK before.
03:49:34 <Sgeo> I have a slight presence on M*U*S*H and LambdaMOO
03:50:37 <zzo38> I have an account on ifMUD
03:51:28 <pikhq> I have but never really got _into_ it
03:52:04 <Sgeo> A fictional world in my head is based on a LambdaMOO-like universe
03:53:57 <imode> it kind of bothers me that services like that haven't been "mainstreamed" in a style similar to Discord.
03:56:16 <imode> the fun people could have together could be unimaginable.
03:59:13 <imode> Sgeo: have you ever written any MUSHcode?
03:59:30 <imode> seeing it makes me think it should have an esolangs wiki entry.
03:59:41 <zzo38> Can you give a short example?
03:59:56 <Sgeo> A little bit. Enough to make a random "maze" (not actually consistent enough to really be called a maze)
04:00:37 <imode> zzo38: https://github.com/volundmush/mushcode
04:01:07 <imode> I don't understand half of what's going on here.
04:02:10 <Sgeo> The u() function is important.
04:02:58 <zzo38> The lines starting with &Q seem to contain SQL codes after the equal sign.
04:05:03 <zzo38> Other than that, I don't know.
04:07:06 <esowiki> [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71155&oldid=71094 * Apollyon094 * (-52)
04:07:59 <Sgeo> "Let's look at the anatomy of a very simple command.
04:07:59 <Sgeo> &cmd_hello #1234=$hello:@pemit %#=Hello, world!"
04:08:04 <Sgeo> http://www.mushcode.com/File/Moes-Mushkode-Manual---Rules-of-Code--Beginning-Commands-
04:08:35 <Sgeo> Sets an attribute on object #1234 called cmd_hello with those contents
04:09:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:I like frog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71156&oldid=70811 * Apollyon094 * (+158)
04:12:47 <zzo38> This is an example of a ifMUD code: @print("Today is ",@let(1,@add(@switch(@time("mon"),0,-1,1,30,2,58,3,89,4,119,5,150,6,180,7,211,8,242,9,272,10,303,11,333),@time("mday")),@switch(@print(@time("mon"),"/",@time("mday")),"1/29","St. Tib's Day", @print(@switch(@mod("%1",5),0,"Sweetmorn",1,"Boomtime",2,"Pungenday",3,"Prickle-Prickle",4,"Setting Orange"),", ",@switch(@idiv("%1",73),0,"Chaos",1,"Discord",2,"Confusion",3,"Bureaucracy",4,"T
04:13:08 <zzo38> (That is a code I wrote.)
04:15:06 <zzo38> The @print() function actually does string concatenation; it doesn't actually print anything.
04:18:15 <imode> it's interesting that this is intended to fit on a single line.
04:18:30 <imode> MUCKcode looks a bit better by comparison.
04:23:20 <Sgeo> MOOcode is so much cleaner. Actual lines!
04:27:30 <esowiki> [[I like frog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71157&oldid=70074 * Apollyon094 * (+222)
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07:22:53 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Frogstair * New user account
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07:27:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71158&oldid=71124 * Frogstair * (+196) /* Introductions */
07:32:18 <esowiki> [[User:Frogstair]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71159 * Frogstair * (+2604) Created page with "frog stair ,,//,,*(/,,/(*,,//,,/(*,,//,,*(/,,//,,*(/,,/(*,,//,,/(*,,//,,*(/,,//,,*(/,,/(*,, ,,/(,,*(/,,/(*,,(/,,/(*,,//,,*@@%%%%@%*(/,,/(*,,(/,,/(*,,//,,*(/,,/(,,*(/,,/(*,,..."
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07:33:15 <esowiki> [[User talk:Frogstair]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71160 * Frogstair * (+4) Created page with "dont"
07:43:22 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71161&oldid=71152 * Frogstair * (+10) /* Non-alphabetic */
07:49:03 <zzo38> If I want to make a SVG file for use with Wikipedia or something like that, would it be suitable to use Ghostscript to produce a PDF and then use pdf2svg to convert it to SVG?
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08:37:35 <esowiki> [[4RL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71162 * Frogstair * (+1146) Created page with "4RL (pronounced "for real") is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:Frogstair]] in April 2020, and is a breed of [[brainfuck]] The language can be compiled..."
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10:11:29 <int-e> tromp: Yeah I know I'm lagging far behind your efforts.
10:14:48 <tromp> we should write a joint paper on this BB
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10:39:56 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71163&oldid=71154 * Ais523 * (+658) /* Adding Underload numbers */ try to avoid making the page /too/ large
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10:56:26 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: it's not really just the number of instructions that matters there. MMIX has tons of instructions, but it's a RISC because they don't have random side effects, parameters, and encodings, wired in to try to improve code density or speed
10:56:53 <kspalaiologos> well, actually these instructions do improve density and speed
11:00:37 <b_jonas> obviously all this can change as you add extensions. ARM used to be a nice simple RISC cpu, but they kept adding all sorts of extensions to optimize it, until it became what you might regard a CISC
11:01:15 <b_jonas> whereas x86 started out as CISC, but with 64-bit mode banning some of the more crazy instructions, and adding tons of vector instructions with nice simple regular behavior, it's getting closer and closer to a RISC
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11:13:14 <kspalaiologos> i'm still looking for ideas of what kind of stuff pack into asm2bf
11:13:30 <kspalaiologos> I thought of floating point math (can microcode in brainfuck, no problem
11:14:22 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: have you written an interpreter that directly runs the bfasm code, so that we can get just rid of the annoying brainfuck layer once and for all?
11:15:00 <b_jonas> that's also great to mask errors in the to-brainfuck compilation, but we don't need that
11:15:37 <kspalaiologos> but the interpreter doesn't currently recognize 100% of the ISA as I'm still working on it
11:16:18 <b_jonas> that could be useful for bfbot
11:17:29 <kspalaiologos> extended the bfi to be able to print onto stderr using a custom instruction
11:18:25 <kspalaiologos> also, we've got a B to asm2bf compiler my friend made out of boredom
11:18:33 <b_jonas> wait, you're writing bfbot in brainfuck?
11:18:36 <kspalaiologos> it works quite well, but output quality is kinda garbage
11:18:47 <b_jonas> how will it run brainfuck then?
11:18:56 <b_jonas> interpreting brainfuck in brainfuck is hard
11:19:09 <b_jonas> and how will it run asmbf?
11:20:02 <b_jonas> that sounds a weirder idea than fungot being written in befunge, or NotJack's J bot being written in J
11:20:02 <fungot> b_jonas: i haven't really taken a tern for the worst
11:20:29 <b_jonas> J has easy access to evaluate J code, and fungot doesn't try to evaluate befunge
11:20:29 <fungot> b_jonas: if so, you're saying ' worse is better"? i think i'll have to think about
11:21:12 <fungot> kspalaiologos: am not. :) i'm in soft eng" that's called " bad coding"
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12:00:02 <esowiki> [[4RL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71164&oldid=71162 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+155) cats, style, & it's not just BF
12:00:52 <esowiki> [[4RL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71165&oldid=71164 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-38)
12:08:11 <esowiki> [[FishScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71166&oldid=71133 * Willicoder * (+12) Change link to my repo because I changes the name of the repo.
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12:17:52 <esowiki> [[Small]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71167&oldid=70989 * Voltage2007 * (+394)
12:25:23 <fizzie> There's actually a command to "evaluate" Befunge, but it just writes the line into the playfield and directs control flow there. It's an admin-only command for obvious reasons. And I don't think I've ever actually used it successfully.
12:26:38 <fizzie> There's at least two Befunge-93 self-interpreters (with smaller-than-standard playfields, of course) though.
12:27:09 <fizzie> And https://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoInterpreters lists six for Brainfuck.
12:34:34 <b_jonas> you have to be careful with admin-only commands. there was a very old bot written in perl that had both normal commands and admin-only commands, so it would accept admin-only commands from the person who ran the bot (unless I could guess their password), and some of the admin-only commands could eval,
12:34:54 <b_jonas> but then while reading the source, I noticed that one of the commands that obviously should have been admin-only wasn't marked admin only
12:35:07 <b_jonas> I reported that so it got fixed
12:52:29 <esowiki> [[Deadfish~]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71168&oldid=66659 * Voltage2007 * (+6)
12:54:28 <int-e> Look at my 6x6x6 Rubik's cube ;-) http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/6x6.jpg
13:02:35 <esowiki> [[Sunny morning]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71169&oldid=69999 * Hakerh400 * (-30) /* References */
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13:10:56 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck extensions]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71170&oldid=69812 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9)
13:12:26 <esowiki> [[FishScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71171&oldid=71166 * Willicoder * (+884)
13:12:53 <esowiki> [[FishScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71172&oldid=71171 * Willicoder * (-12) /* Small Hello World */
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13:31:41 <esowiki> [[FishScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71173&oldid=71172 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Interpreters */
13:37:35 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71174&oldid=70532 * YamTokTpaFa * (+30) /* Echo */ The original author seemed to have thought cat program is echo program.
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14:21:42 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71175&oldid=71126 * Palaiologos * (+2626) conditional instructions
14:23:20 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71176&oldid=71175 * Palaiologos * (+502) B compiler
14:24:23 <kspalaiologos> I think on somehow breaking it down, because currently it feels too big
14:25:18 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71177&oldid=71176 * Palaiologos * (+4) uh-oh, forgot about closing the tags
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14:26:16 <HackEso> EARTH HAS 4 CORNER SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY TIME CUBE IN ONLY 24 HOUR ROTATION. 4 CORNER DAYS, CUBES 4 QUAD EARTH. Bible A Lie & Word Is Lies. Navel Connects 4 Corner 4s. God Is Born Of A Mother - She Left Belly B. Signature. Your dirty lying teachers use only the midnight to midnight 1 day (ignoring 3 other days) Time to not foul (already wrong) bible time. Lie that corrupts earth you educated stupid fools.
14:26:34 <b_jonas> how many springs and summers are there?
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14:29:26 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: look for time cube on wikipedia if you really want to know
14:29:33 <b_jonas> it's an infamous website that is now defunct
14:29:49 <b_jonas> it's much much longer than what fits into two wisdom entries, so these are just samples
14:29:53 <HackEso> Dr Gene Ray is the Greatest Philosopher, and is the Greatest Mathematician. Cubic Harmonics. Only Cubic Harmonics can save humanity. Cubic Harmonics will pacify all religions. 96-hour Cubic Day debunks 1-day unnatural god. 96-hour day willdisprove disunity god. Academians are teaching - pseudocience. Worshipping a Word God will destroy the USA.
14:30:00 <b_jonas> that's the other wisdom that samples from i
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14:51:45 <HackEso> olist 1200: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
14:52:37 <HackEso> Thanks, HackEso. ThackEso.
15:13:03 <kspalaiologos> is there a method for drawing a sierpinski triangle without bitops that won't take a lot of space?
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15:15:28 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: I'm not sure your question is well-defined. care to elaborate?
15:15:51 <kspalaiologos> there's a common method for drawing a sierpinski triangle that utilizes bitand (&)
15:16:04 <kspalaiologos> I've been wondering is there any other algorithm that would utilize just basic arithmetic
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15:43:10 <FireFly> depends on how you define space, how you want the output to look like, etc
15:43:39 <FireFly> like, it has a very simple description as a Lindenmeyer system
15:44:11 <FireFly> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-system#Example_5:_Sierpinski_triangle
15:46:22 <FireFly> kspalaiologos: oh, another classic is deriving it from Pascal's triangle
15:51:35 <FireFly> [ binview (1,1,~ 2| }:+}.)^:(<16) 1
15:56:38 <b_jonas> [ (~:_1&|.)^:(<20) 0=i.20 NB. FireFly: or like this
15:56:39 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
15:56:39 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
15:56:39 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
15:56:39 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
15:56:39 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
15:56:39 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
15:56:39 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
15:56:40 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
16:02:36 <int-e> > [[if (x .&. (y-x)) == 0 then 'x' else ' ' | x <- [0..y]] | y <- [0..]]
16:02:39 <lambdabot> ["x","xx","x x","xxxx","x x","xx xx","x x x x","xxxxxxxx","x x","xx...
16:03:14 * int-e wonders which bit trick b_jonas' code uses
16:15:56 <FireFly> b_jonas: well yeah, fair, you can express it that way too
16:16:31 <FireFly> I should've used ~: instead of (2|+)
16:27:31 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71178&oldid=70677 * Hakerh400 * (+45) Dead link
16:30:43 <myname> i am way too confused about .&.
16:31:59 <b_jonas> [ (,.&0,,.~)^:4,1 NB. FireFly: or you could use this comma-heavy thing
16:31:59 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
16:31:59 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
16:31:59 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
16:31:59 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
16:31:59 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
16:32:00 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
16:32:00 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
16:32:01 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
16:33:16 <kspalaiologos> is there an unicode character corresponding to a printable ASCII sequence?
16:33:53 <b_jonas> [ ([:{&' .'':'_2:#.&.|:\0&<) (,.&0,,.~)^:4,1
16:33:54 <j-bot> b_jonas: :.:. :.:.
16:33:54 <j-bot> b_jonas: :. :. :. :.
16:33:55 <j-bot> b_jonas: :.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.
16:34:09 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: I don't understand your question
16:34:37 <kspalaiologos> that is, representation in form of a sequence of bytes
16:35:10 <b_jonas> [ (,.&' ',,.~)^:4,:':.' NB. perhaps better
16:35:19 <j-bot> b_jonas: :.:. :.:.
16:35:19 <j-bot> b_jonas: :. :. :. :.
16:35:23 <j-bot> b_jonas: :.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.
16:35:35 <int-e> kspalaiologos: do you mean UTF-8
16:35:46 <kspalaiologos> now, I want to find an unicode character, whose codepoint has it's code point, that when interpreted as ASCII will be printable
16:35:59 <int-e> UTF-8 is designed to not overlap with ASCII
16:36:18 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: how about 'b'
16:36:24 <int-e> It overlaps with ASCII, but it maps ASCII to the first 128 Unicdoe points.
16:36:58 <FireFly> all ASCII characters when encoded in UTF-8 are printable (as themselves)
16:37:02 <int-e> So it extends ASCII.
16:37:25 <int-e> kspalaiologos: The answer is no.
16:37:26 <myname> kspalaiologos: why is disambiguity bad?
16:37:28 <kspalaiologos> so all in all, there's no printable ASCII sequence that's a single valid codepoint for UTF8?
16:37:30 <FireFly> (well, er, all *printable* ASCII characters specifically :p)
16:37:43 <myname> kspalaiologos: no because ascii is a subset of utf-8
16:37:46 <int-e> There's a UTF-7 though. No clue how it works.
16:38:12 <myname> i still don't get why this should be bad
16:38:17 <myname> this is actually very good
16:38:25 <FireFly> int-e: wait, there is? I know of UTF-9 and UTF-18, don't remember if I've seen UTF-7...
16:39:54 <int-e> FireFly: Yeah by the looks of it it's basically unused.
16:40:17 <int-e> kspalaiologos: use a different ball.
16:40:35 * FireFly . o O ( different (type)ball )
16:40:56 <FireFly> int-e: *nod*, which makes for fun tech history trivia though :p
16:41:39 <b_jonas> UTF-7 was probably designed so that you can punch unicode onto a 7-row paper tape in a way that's reasonably transparent, i.e. you can still read and write most of the ASCII subset straightforwardly
16:41:52 <b_jonas> and other non-8-bit-clean transport methods
16:42:08 <FireFly> b_jonas: yes, specifically SMTP apparently
16:42:17 <FireFly> (which I didn't realise apparently wasn't guaranteed to be 8-bit clean)
16:42:49 <int-e> FireFly: Too modern. Stuff like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delay_line_memory is much more interesting :)
16:44:00 <b_jonas> FireFly: in theory you could use it in MIME email headers and bodies, but I think nobody uses UTF-7 there,
16:44:23 <FireFly> yeah, I think it's just quoted-printable in practice..
16:44:26 <b_jonas> instead people use two other encoding methods: the quoted-printable thing that puts two hexits after an equals sign, and, in bodies only, some sort of base-64 encoding
16:45:17 <int-e> The worst encoding is probably the IDN one.
16:45:31 <FireFly> (turns out, reading the Wikipedia article, that UTF-7 actually essentially base64's individual codepoints outside a specific set (and annotates the base64'd part with delimiters))
16:46:16 <FireFly> it's.. certainly a fascinating way to encode non-ASCII codepoints
16:47:36 <int-e> Ah, Punycode. Yes, indeed.
17:11:31 <kspalaiologos> TIL apple released a pair of tyres / wheels for Mac Pro for $700
17:11:45 <kspalaiologos> allowing transition from Mac Pro to a $10k racecar
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18:04:04 <zzo38> I downloaded the new rules for Magic: the Gathering.
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18:16:18 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Emotebatch]] to [[EmoteBatch]]: fix capitalization
18:18:15 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71181&oldid=71150 * Hdjensofjfnen * (-2) /* Metatape */
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18:33:41 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71182&oldid=71178 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-32) /* Resources */ template add
18:34:55 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71183&oldid=71163 * CatIsFluffy * (+100) /* Adding Underload numbers */
18:37:31 <esowiki> [[Underload/Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71184&oldid=71153 * CatIsFluffy * (+20739) Even more numbers
18:40:57 <esowiki> [[I like frog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71185&oldid=71157 * Apollyon094 * (+328)
18:42:23 <esowiki> [[I like frog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71186&oldid=71185 * Apollyon094 * (+56)
18:43:54 <esowiki> [[I like frog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71187&oldid=71186 * Apollyon094 * (+62)
18:45:24 <esowiki> [[I like frog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71188&oldid=71187 * Apollyon094 * (-76)
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19:05:05 <zzo38> Is "GODSPEED" in the newest Scrabble dictionary? It is a word my opponent once wanted to play, although it isn't in the dictionary we were using (the third edition), so it isn't allowed.
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19:26:03 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71189&oldid=71136 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Misc */
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20:27:11 <esowiki> [[Procedure]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71190&oldid=70553 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1936) Documentation + SeeAlso
20:28:24 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71191&oldid=71161 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* P */ add pure
20:31:42 <esowiki> [[Procedure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71192&oldid=71190 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+55)
20:32:12 <esowiki> [[Procedure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71193&oldid=71192 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19)
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20:55:13 <esowiki> [[Nairb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71194&oldid=63954 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18)
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22:38:34 <tromp> int-e: just completed all TODOs for 35. last one was toughest:)
22:39:03 <tromp> i mean the (\1 1) (\1 (\\1 (2 1)) 1) one
22:39:30 <tromp> should now be able to add BB(35) to OEIS with some confidence
22:41:27 <tromp> let's run BB 36 and see where it crashes
22:45:07 <tromp> strangely it seems to hang without increasing memuse
22:55:17 <tromp> oh, it's on term (\1 1) (\1 (1 (\\2 (2 1))))
22:55:36 <tromp> which, if i'm correct is 2^256 :-(
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02:11:57 <zzo38> I made this programming language http://sprunge.us/5jA9Q3 it isn't completed yet, though. Please make a comment of it
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02:32:11 <esowiki> [[FishScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71195&oldid=71173 * Watermelon3D * (-4865)
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03:35:37 <esowiki> [[FishScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71196&oldid=71195 * Watermelon3D * (-589) /* Commands */
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04:39:29 <zzo38> I think the reason sometimes my computer uses more RAM that it should is something to do with graphics, since it increases when loading a PDF even after the program to view the PDF is terminated.
04:45:41 <Hooloovo0> one thing I've seen a couple times is memory fragmentation in graphics areas
04:46:24 <Hooloovo0> well, not graphics, per se, but X, which is in charge of graphics
04:48:23 <zzo38> Terminating and restarting X did not seem to help the last time I tried that
05:29:53 <zzo38> I don't like the common convention of writing the stack effect used in PostScript, and I think the convention of Forth is better, so I use the Forth convention even when writing programs in PostScript, too.
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07:06:08 <imode> I wish simpler languages like Forth had become mainstream vs. what we have now.
07:06:18 <imode> have had trouble even picking a language to write services in.
07:28:32 <zzo38> You could write a program in Forth, if you want to do, I think.
07:35:48 <int-e> But Forth is a very odd word processor.
07:46:24 <tromp> int-e: wow, was able to complete BB(36) search!
07:46:44 <tromp> (36,1441774,(\1 1) (\1 (\\2 (2 1)) 1))
07:47:15 <tromp> so that Church 2^256 is BB(36)
07:48:02 <tromp> assuming all TODOs are loops
08:20:51 <esowiki> [[User:LyricLy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71197&oldid=52451 * LyricLy * (-1)
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09:15:04 <tromp> BB 37 run doesn't do so well, seems to explode in mem even without troublesome terms
09:15:36 <tromp> better work on proving BB(36)
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11:12:29 <esowiki> [[Seclusion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71198&oldid=67003 * Hakerh400 * (-84) Remove references template
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11:46:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:2/9 of an esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71199&oldid=68664 * YamTokTpaFa * (+689)
11:55:45 <esowiki> [[2/9 of an esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71200&oldid=66203 * YamTokTpaFa * (+200)
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12:30:32 <esowiki> [[///]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71201&oldid=69533 * YamTokTpaFa * (+17) /* Perl interpreter */ nowiki-tagged two quotation marks to prevent them from getting treated as beginning of italic.
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13:03:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:FishScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71202&oldid=71129 * Willicoder * (+196)
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13:07:41 <kspalaiologos> it's been offline for four days, no idea what has happened
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14:13:04 <tromp> just realized that 0^0 = 1 also holds in Church numerals
14:14:19 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: once upon a time, the Event happened. A few it was noticed by, and by none was it been known that the noble gitlogger had been knocked out flat by it, and that it was its sole effect
14:18:33 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
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16:00:25 <esowiki> [[FishScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71204&oldid=71203 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+47) /* Commands */ Fixed commands (nowiki tag)
16:02:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:FishScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71205&oldid=71202 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+252)
16:04:29 <kspalaiologos> I managed to squash the sierpinski program and hunt down some bugs
16:04:45 <kspalaiologos> currently it's down to 219 bytes, relying on some compiler voodoo
16:04:51 <kspalaiologos> @a/clrr2/@b/pshr1/movr4,r2/@c/movr5,r1/modr5,2/movr6,r4/modr6,2/mulr5,r6/cger5,1/cmor5,1/cjn%d/asrr1/asrr4/jnzr1,%c/jnzr4,%c/clrr3/@d/cger3,1/movr3,42/cmor3,32/outr3/popr1/incr2/cger2,64/cjz%b/out10/incr1/cger1,64/cjz%a
16:12:34 <esowiki> [[Strvar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71206&oldid=71149 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) /* Syntax */
16:13:09 <esowiki> [[Strvar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71207&oldid=71206 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-35) /* Truth-machine */
16:20:53 <esowiki> [[HGFTSNOA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71208&oldid=70472 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) /* Either */
16:24:53 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71209&oldid=71177 * Palaiologos * (+202) v1.3.6 release notes
16:31:34 <esowiki> [[Classical CT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71210&oldid=55693 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) fix your assignment
16:31:56 <esowiki> [[Classical CT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71211&oldid=71210 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12)
16:37:23 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71212&oldid=71209 * Palaiologos * (+14) lowercase template
16:40:21 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71213&oldid=71212 * Palaiologos * (+23) Add the low-level tag
16:55:37 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71214&oldid=71182 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) /* Syntax */
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17:11:54 <esowiki> [[`]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71216&oldid=67531 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* Hello, world! */ fixed
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18:10:47 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71219&oldid=71218 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) PythonshellDebugwindow changed the content model of the page [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] from "wikitext" to "plain text"
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18:11:18 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71220&oldid=71219 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-59)
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18:12:38 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71222&oldid=71221 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+90)
18:14:36 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71223&oldid=71135 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+59)
18:15:09 <esowiki> [[Strvar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71224&oldid=71207 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30)
18:21:52 <esowiki> [[Strvar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71225&oldid=71224 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+152) /* Interpreter test cases */
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19:44:35 <zzo38> "The result of mounting a file system nosuid varies across Linux kernel versions: some will refuse execution of set-user-ID and set-group-ID executables when this would give the user powers she did not have already (and return EPERM), some will just ignore the set-user-ID and set-group-ID bits and exec() successfully."
19:45:49 <zzo38> I think that if the user does not have permission to read the file, and nosuid is used, then executing files with set-user-ID and set-group-ID should also be prohibited.
19:47:37 <zzo38> Also, they didn't tell you what version of Linux will have what effect.
19:48:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: there is a mount flag noexec though if you want to just deny executing anything on the fs
19:51:53 <zzo38> OK, that makes sense, although it should also make sense to me that if it is with nosuid even though the set-user-ID and set-group-ID bits are set, then it should also refuse execution if the user does not have permission to read the file, unless those bits would correspond to the current user and group anyways, in which case it would still be allowed. Since, otherwise, it would allow the user to do something which is otherwise prohibi
19:55:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, but we can't change that in old kernel versions so you have to know about the behavior
19:57:58 <zzo38> Yes, althought hey should mention what versions, rather than merely saying it varies across Linux kernel versions.
20:06:40 <j-bot> spruit11: :.:.:.:.
20:06:40 <j-bot> spruit11: :.:. :.:.
20:06:40 <j-bot> spruit11: :. :. :. :.
20:06:41 <j-bot> spruit11: :.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.
20:07:11 <j-bot> spruit11: :.:.:.:.
20:07:12 <j-bot> spruit11: :.:. :.:.
20:07:12 <j-bot> spruit11: :. :. :. :.
20:07:13 <j-bot> spruit11: :.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.
20:40:16 <esowiki> [[Strvar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71226&oldid=71225 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+108) /* Resources */
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23:40:34 <Umbrage> This is my first time here.
23:41:39 <zzo38> OK, what is it you wanted, then?
23:42:02 <Umbrage> I came here to see if anybody wanted to discuss esolangs.
23:42:22 <zzo38> OK, do you have specific questions or other comments about it?
23:42:45 <Umbrage> I'm developing an esolang.
23:43:01 <LKoen> what's your main source of inspiration?
23:43:51 <zzo38> Do you have any further details?
23:45:16 <Umbrage> Here's the pastebin of the compilation if you are interested:
23:45:20 <Umbrage> https://pastebin.com/Nc8NGSbK
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23:50:32 <HackEso> Umbrage: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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23:56:16 <Umbrage> So basically, the code starts out disguised as brainFuck
23:56:55 <Umbrage> so if the program was ][, in binary it would be 100101
23:57:29 <Umbrage> Then, I run it though an elementary cellular automata with rule 90 (A XOR C)
23:58:18 <Umbrage> If the XOR operation accesses a cell with a value below 0, it returns a truthy value.
23:58:48 <Umbrage> If the XOR operation accesses a cell with a value greater than or equal to the number of cells, it returns a falsy value.
23:59:39 <Umbrage> After an equal number of iterations of the elementary cellular automata to the number of bits in the binary, it stops, and saves the binary.
23:59:48 <Umbrage> Then, it converts it to code and runs it.
00:01:23 <Umbrage> For simplicity, XOR is [ A NAND ( A NAND B ) ] NAND
00:01:46 <Umbrage> I think it's turing complete.
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00:02:17 <Umbrage> I can prove turing completeness for half of all computable problems, but I don't have a proof of the others.
00:02:47 <Umbrage> Specifically, problems with odd numbers of instructions are the issue.
00:02:54 <Umbrage> Any ideas on how to prove it?
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02:51:12 <zzo38> Why is the Adobe font metric format not like a PostScript format? I think the TeX font format is better. Some people say that METAFONT doesn't do outline fonts or hinting, but actually it does both. The mainly problem with TeX fornat is the limits, and the kerning/ligature programs can't look ahead more than one character, but the Adobe format seems to be similarly limited from what I can see.
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04:58:53 <zzo38> This is the Magic: the Gathering major template for TeXnicard so far: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui/dir?ci=tip&name=templates/magic Do you have any comments/complaints of it please?
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06:41:49 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71227&oldid=71181 * YamTokTpaFa * (+112) /* Pxem */
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09:01:15 <esowiki> [[Ral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71229&oldid=68419 * Herman-L * (+1436)
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10:00:27 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71230&oldid=71119 * RocketRace * (+2291) Document GROUP
10:03:16 <esowiki> [[User talk:RocketRace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71231&oldid=71105 * RocketRace * (+161)
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10:54:00 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71232&oldid=71230 * RocketRace * (+4447) Document LEVEL and IMAGE
10:57:00 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71233&oldid=71232 * RocketRace * (+225) Document EMPTY
10:58:24 <int-e> . o O ( So... statistics is the art of refining garbage into something resembling reliable data. )
11:05:05 <int-e> `lear Statistics is the art of refining garbage into data.
11:05:08 <HackEso> lear? No such file or directory
11:05:08 <int-e> `learn Statistics is the art of refining garbage into data.
11:05:14 <HackEso> Learned 'statistic': Statistics is the art of refining garbage into data.
11:05:25 <int-e> (I think it's passable. Feel free to improve.)
11:05:39 <int-e> Or would that be s/improve/refine/ ;-)
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11:23:27 <b_jonas> fungot, what kind of video games do you play?
11:23:27 <fungot> b_jonas: are any of you have a copy?
11:23:35 <fungot> b_jonas: to, even. doesn't that count for something.
11:25:41 <int-e> fungot: it it's even it may be two.
11:25:41 <fungot> int-e: that's just wrong.
11:25:52 <int-e> fungot: I'm sorry you think that.
11:25:52 <fungot> int-e: that only accepts a bf interpreter that takes i/ o
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12:01:14 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71234&oldid=71233 * RocketRace * (+8156) Document the entire god damn runtime
12:07:35 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71235&oldid=71234 * RocketRace * (+8199) Add examples (oh no......)
12:09:02 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71236&oldid=71191 * RocketRace * (+15) Add Babalang
12:12:15 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71237&oldid=71235 * RocketRace * (+100) Categorize the page
12:12:52 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71238&oldid=71237 * RocketRace * (-8) Change wording in description
12:13:10 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71239&oldid=71238 * RocketRace * (-4) Fix broken link
12:33:52 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71240&oldid=71222 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19)
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13:26:49 <esowiki> [[Welcome To...]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71241 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2108) Work in progress
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16:56:21 <ais523> for everyone who doesn't know how UTF-7 works: all of ASCII encodes itself apart from the "+" character, which is encoded in UTF-7 as "+-"
16:56:28 <ais523> and then sequences starting with + are used for non-ASCII characters
16:57:22 <APic> Thanks for the Explanation!
16:57:23 <ais523> I'm not 100% sure on the encoding after the +, but if I'm remembering correctly, it's just UTF-16 written in hexadecimal
16:57:47 <ais523> (terminated by - if the next character is a hexadecimal character or -, or with no explicit terminator if it's outside the hexadecimal range)
16:58:27 <int-e> that sounds really inefficient
16:58:37 <ais523> that's probably why it didn't catch on
16:59:17 <ais523> the main design goal appears to have been that a recipient could guess what it meant even if they didn't know the format, but that possibly isn't a useful design goal
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17:00:42 <ais523> ah no, it isn't hexadecimal, it must be something more efficient than that
17:00:48 <ais523> maybe base64'd utf-16?
17:01:03 <ais523> I just encoded a BOM into utf-7, it encoded as +/v8-
17:01:21 <int-e> it's a base64 variant wedeged between + and -.
17:01:21 <ais523> `` echo '/v8' | base64 -d | od -t x1z
17:01:23 <HackEso> base64: invalid input \ 0000000 fe ff >..< \ 0000002
17:01:29 <ais523> yes, that looks like base64 to me
17:01:48 <int-e> (With the +- exception that maps to + as you said)
17:02:13 <ais523> base64 is still a bit inefficient but it isn't as inefficient as base16
17:02:55 <ais523> now I wonder how many editors will interpret files as UTF-7 if they start +/v8 followed by - or a non-base-64 character
17:03:29 <int-e> 'Older versions of Internet Explorer can be tricked into interpreting the page as UTF-7. This can be used for a cross-site scripting attack as the < and > marks can be encoded as +ADw- and +AD4- in UTF-7, which most validators let through as simple text.'
17:03:42 <int-e> So it did have serious applications :P
17:04:08 <ais523> I seem to remember someone managing an XSS attack against the #esoteric logs
17:04:17 <ais523> because IE was so permissive with encodings and MIME types
17:04:44 <int-e> And yes, it stacks on top of UTF-16. What a mess.
17:05:56 <ais523> I still think that, in a way, it's a pity that UTF-1 didn't catch on
17:06:32 <ais523> the rise of UTF-8 caused serious standards incompatibility problems, because UTF-8 uses C1 control codes for purposes other than their assigned meanings
17:07:28 <ais523> although, given that a C1 control code cannot appear in UTF-8 except immediately after a G1 character, this ambiguity should be fixable, but nobody I know of but me actually tries to fix it
17:09:19 <ais523> I guess part of the problem is that many of the C1 control codes are kind-of silly
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18:01:35 <b_jonas> oh nice. that's like the XSS attacks when a browser guesses that something is HTML even though the HTTP response header Content-Type says text/plain
18:12:33 <shachaf> This encoding is a bit inefficient but it seems OK.
18:12:43 <shachaf> The one that I don't get is Punycode. What's with that? It seems so complicated.
18:16:39 <int-e> Yeah, Punycode is pretty awful. It seems to be designed for a language like German where words are mostly ASCII with maybe one or two non-ASCII characters.
18:17:29 <int-e> "Punycode is a simple and efficient transfer encoding syntax [...]"
18:17:30 <shachaf> But even so, it seems completely unreadable by humans.
18:17:59 <FireFly> unreadable by humans, annoying to implement..
18:18:07 <int-e> I don't agree with this use of the word "simple".
18:18:52 <shachaf> `` python -c 'print([s.encode("punycode") for s in ["aaa", "aaaλ", "aaaaλ", "aaaλbbb"]])'
18:18:53 <HackEso> ['aaa-', 'aaa-3ga8g', 'aaaa-tia7i', 'aaabbb-5la5m']
18:19:25 <int-e> shachaf: Well one can kind of guess what "Mnchen-3ya" stands for.
18:19:41 <shachaf> But not by knowing anything about the string "3ya"!
18:20:10 <shachaf> You might as well write "M�nchen".
18:20:33 <shachaf> (Except it doesn't even tell you where the replacement character is.)
18:20:44 <zzo38> You might not have to implement Punycode, at least.
18:20:54 <shachaf> I'm probably only sort of back? Hard to say.
18:21:09 <zzo38> How do you meant only sort of back?
18:21:12 <int-e> The only good thing about punycode is that you generally don't see it in encoded form.
18:22:27 <shachaf> How about this Punycode replacement: You write "m-nchen--fc.com" for "münchen.com".
18:23:17 <shachaf> Each code point above 127 and - gets encoded as a -, and then they're listen in order in hexadecimal after the --
18:23:22 <shachaf> That's probably not very good.
18:23:57 <shachaf> `` python -c 'print([s.encode("punycode") for s in ["привет"]])'
18:23:58 <zzo38> It helps since you can write domain names purely in the ASCII form. You can disable non-ASCII domain names and then it will still work, and avoid the homoglyph problems and missing fonts and so on, too.
18:25:11 <zzo38> However, I should think they should not have needed support for domain names containing any characters not already valid in domain names anyways
18:26:26 <int-e> shachaf: I guess there's one advantage to punycode that's easy to miss: some character set restrictions (like domain names not containing dots) can be enforced on punycode encoded strings without decoding them
18:26:47 <int-e> But overall it doesn't seem very nice.
18:28:21 <int-e> the . would become part of the unencoded base character sequence before the final minus sign
18:30:08 <int-e> (This is assuming that base characters can't be encoded in the final encoded part, which I believe is the case.)
18:30:25 <shachaf> So you mean it doesn't have an equivalent of overlong encodings of ASCII characters.
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18:31:18 <shachaf> But you can still have encoding errors, right? Overlong encodings are already an error in UTF-8.
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18:33:12 <int-e> But I don't know for sure.
18:33:28 <int-e> (I'm not interested enough to check this in detail.)
18:34:17 <shachaf> I'm now reading about how Punycode actually works and it's kind of ridiculous.
18:34:30 <shachaf> `` python -c 'print([s.encode("punycode") for s in ["München"]])'
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18:37:22 <int-e> It is kind of neat if you like arithmetic coding.
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18:38:07 <shachaf> I guess it's pretty efficient, at least.
18:38:31 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71245&oldid=70695 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+228)
18:43:24 <esowiki> [[A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71246&oldid=68569 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+153) /* External links */
18:43:29 <shachaf> `` python -c 'print([s.encode("punycode") for s in ["bücher"]])'
18:43:45 <shachaf> What' going on there? Is it normalizing the Unicode into two characters before encoding or something?
18:44:04 <shachaf> `` python -c 'print([s.encode("punycode") for s in ["bücher"]])'
18:44:22 <esowiki> [[Ellipsis]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71247&oldid=63411 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+76) cats
18:45:16 <shachaf> Oh, it's a Python 2 thing, isn't it.
18:45:36 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: py: command not found
18:45:41 <shachaf> `` python3 -c 'print([s.encode("punycode") for s in [u"bücher"]])'
18:47:10 <arseniiv> `` python3 -c 'print([s.encode("punycode") for s in ["ü"]])'
18:47:25 <arseniiv> okay I don’t get punycode at all
18:47:53 <shachaf> > foldr (\x y -> x + y * 36) 0 $ map (\d -> fromJust $ elemIndex d (['a'..'z'] ++ ['0'..'9'])) "tda"
18:48:06 <arseniiv> ah, and I think I first thought that’s the same as what urlencode does
18:48:41 <arseniiv> `` python3 -c 'print([s.encode("punycode") for s in ["ü"]])'
18:49:49 <arseniiv> ah, so it seeingly first prefixes all ASCII codepoints from the string, if any, and then base-something-encoded string in full
18:50:01 <arseniiv> though I might have read about it already somewhere
18:50:50 <arseniiv> `` python3 -c 'print([s.encode("punycode") for s in ["aμb⚁cъd"]])'
18:52:03 <shachaf> It encodes the code points and positions in base 36.
18:56:36 <arseniiv> ah, now I have read a part of discussion above too :D should have done that earlier
19:06:59 <b_jonas> ais523: also that's why we don't allow overlong encodings in UTF-8
19:24:41 <zzo38> For some applications, overlong encodings in UTF-8 is useful
19:25:41 <shachaf> Exploiting buggy software, for instance?
19:29:37 <zzo38> Maybe, although that isn't what I meant.
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20:08:29 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71249&oldid=70998 * Hakerh400 * (+0) Reorder sections
20:11:17 <ais523> b_jonas: I think encoding NUL as 00 in UTF-8 was a mistake
20:11:42 <ais523> I would prefer an encoding of C0 80, to allow an "out-of-band" string termination character
20:12:12 <zzo38> In some applications you can use C0 80 to encode a null character in a UTF-8 string, to use 00 as a string termination. But in other cases you don't do that.
20:12:43 <b_jonas> ais523: you can always define a custom escaping transform, that should be independent of the encoding itself. you can even use 0x80 or 0x81
20:13:26 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't usually trust that strings that claim to be utf-8 are really valid utf-8 anyway, so I wouldn't trust that they don't have a 0x00 or 0x80 or whatever
20:13:38 <ais523> b_jonas: I would also prefer that C1 control codes are encoded as themselves, but that's more controversial (the encoding is still self-synchronizing but to a lesser extent)
20:14:26 <zzo38> Maybe programs I write I design to use ASCII and not Unicode, anyways
20:15:45 <ais523> hmm, that reminds me, I came up with a binary format that has similar purposes to JSON, in which all strings encoded themselves (in UTF-8), and all nonstrings used invalid UTF-8 sequences
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20:19:24 <zzo38> Can you encode surrogates if needed?
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20:19:46 <zzo38> (You might need it if the data isn't Unicode, for example.)
20:21:10 <zzo38> And then, what about characters beyond the range of Unicode?
20:22:36 <zzo38> Do you have the documentation for your format?
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20:24:29 <ais523> zzo38: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/gsap.txt
20:25:45 <ais523> I think out-of-range characters and surrogates can be encoded in the format, but the format is meant to disallow them because strings are meant to be Unicode only
20:26:01 <ais523> if you have a string of character-like things that is not Unicode, it should probably be stored as an array of bytes
20:27:25 <ais523> also I think there's a missing " in the example near the start
20:27:28 <ais523> I haven't looked at this file for ages
20:31:12 <zzo38> I do not see anything about byte arrays; also, it doesn't seems to be able to use lists of exactly one element when dynamic types are used, from what I can tell.
20:31:56 <ais523> a list of one element is equivalent to the element itself
20:32:06 <ais523> and a byte array would be represented as a nonliteral containing the bytes as arguments
20:32:19 <ais523> e.g. (bytes 2 12 255 0 255)
20:32:39 <ais523> this is intended for use with schemas / strong typing, so you can always distinguish a singleton list from an element
20:32:54 <zzo38> Yes, that is what I thought about a list of one element, but if a distinction is needed between lists and non-lists then that won't work when dynamic types are used.
20:33:37 <zzo38> It says the format can be either statically or dynamically typed. With static types what you say will work, for the reason you mention, but that won't work so well for dynamic types, I think.
20:34:48 <ais523> well, there are two ways to think about dynamic typing
20:35:16 <ais523> IMO in a dynamically typed language, you should just treat the data as whatever type you're expecting it to have, and not care about what type it actually has
20:35:26 <zzo38> Also, the byte arrays done in the way like you mention does not seem to be efficient.
20:37:07 <b_jonas> ais523: that's perl typing or dwim scalars
20:37:53 <ais523> zzo38: yes, but this is a very uncommon use case
20:38:17 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, it's the only sensible way to do dynamic typing I think
20:38:22 <b_jonas> the other method is to write programs sort of like in a strongly typed language, except you omit some enum constructors in favor of storing multiple types and checking for them, mostly with a nul type versus other types, or an array versus a number
20:38:41 <ais523> well, that and stringly typing, where everything is stored as a string (or else in some format that isn't a string but acts like one)
20:39:09 <ais523> b_jonas: I think that style is kind-of terrible unless you have a huge supply of enum constructors that can just be used anywhere
20:39:19 <ais523> and do in fact use them everywhere
20:39:39 <ais523> "this function takes a string or an integer" is horrible in terms of self-documentation, and can't easily be modified into taking a string or a different type of string
20:40:14 <zzo38> For storing structured data which does not need to be parsed into other data structures after it is read, I like the format http://fileformats.archiveteam.org/wiki/PostScript_binary_object_format but it has the disadvantage that, unlike your format, it does not support streaming writing, and will require two passes to write.
20:41:02 <b_jonas> ais523: what do you call the kind of typing that x86 machine language or forth does, which isn't dynamic typing because there are no type tags in data, but also no type information at compile time?
20:41:41 <ais523> b_jonas: "everything is just bits"
20:41:46 <ais523> I'm not sure if it has a proper name beyond that
20:42:25 <ais523> hmm, actually I think this conversation has helped me clarify my understanding: type tags in data that just store the type rather than the meaning are about as useful as Hungarian notation that just stores the type rather than the meaning
20:42:59 <ais523> occasionally it helps, but only in programs where each type can only have one possible meaning, which is rare
20:43:20 <zzo38> Another format is RELOAD, which also supports efficient byte arrays like PostScript does, but that is with another different use. In RELOAD, all names are indicated by numbers, and which names correspond to which numbers is listed at the end. Although it requires parsing, it allows a program to write out using its own numbers, while when reading it can efficiently create a table mapping the file's numbers to its internal numbers.
20:45:20 <ais523> the gsap format I linked, the main motivation was to be able to implement most parser-like operations using only a single stack, + an append-only output
20:45:33 <ais523> to make the best possible use of memory bandwidth and cache
20:45:41 <b_jonas> ais523: is it "everything is just bits" even if you aren't manipulating bytes or fixed-size words, but nonnegative bignums such as in Amicus?
20:46:00 <ais523> b_jonas: well, the bignum is also just bits
20:46:07 <ais523> you have to know it's a bignum some other way to be able to operate on it correctly
20:46:16 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, it does have those advantages at least.
20:47:10 <b_jonas> ais523: well it is manipulated in binary
20:49:13 <b_jonas> ais523: meaning of the data => yes, which is some modern dynamically typed languages are object-oriented.
20:50:35 <ais523> anyway I find that in practice, Python or JavaScript programs nearly always are only meant to allow one type in each function argument / variable
20:50:57 <ais523> and this has to be documented and verified to always be the case by humans (or via some sort of typing extension to the language)
20:51:20 <ais523> so the dynamic typing mostly just serves to increase the risk of bugs and increase the amount of manual effort
20:51:23 <b_jonas> I quite like python's type system: objects have a class, which you can imagine as if all objects (except maybe small integers) have a class pointer in them, and the class determines the representation of the rest of that object, as in what fields it has for normal objects, or whether it's a variable sized object like tuple or bytes or str that has an variable sized array allocated inside the object (so
20:51:49 <ais523> whereas if you're using Perl-style typing, it's very hard to get wrong because you can't accidentally pass a string rather than an integer or the like
20:51:57 <b_jonas> the actual representation could differ, this is just the notion
20:52:08 <zzo38> ais523: There are some exceptions though, sometimes I do use support for multiple types in a variable/argument although usually it is only one type. Especially if it accepts null in addition to another type.
20:52:15 <ais523> the basical problem here is to do with references, which are a fundamentally different thing from strings and integers
20:52:32 <b_jonas> and you can define new classes, and either you tell what fields they have, or you inherit from a class with one of those special variable sized representation.
20:52:33 <zzo38> Another case in JavaScript is sometimes a function might accept either a string or a byte array; this is used in Node.js to represent file names, for example.
20:52:54 <ais523> zzo38: "null or X" arguments have been a huge source of bugs historically, though; most modern programming languages use some techniques to ensure that nullability is always clear, and that the null case is handled if it could happen
20:53:16 <ais523> it's very easy to write a function where some input could be null but the programmer didn't realise it while writing the function
20:54:04 <zzo38> ais523: Yes; if you are using Haskell then you can use Maybe, although in JavaScript programs at least, I write it the way I need and it still works anyways.
20:54:48 <b_jonas> in any case, you can use python's class-object system to write programs where your functions accept many different types if you want
20:58:31 <zzo38> I am now trying to write a specification of a change set format for TeXnicard, which is intended to be readable ASCII text which can be included in netnews articles.
21:00:30 <zzo38> Do you have any comments about doing such a thing?
21:17:51 <int-e> Well, do it 20 years ago...
21:20:10 <zzo38> I can't do it 20 years ago; I will do it now. It won't be useful to do it before TeXnicard is written, anyways.
21:21:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: do TeXnicard 20 years ago too
21:22:36 <zzo38> Well, I cannot do that, so I will have to do it now, instead.
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21:34:08 <tromp> int-e: TODOs at 36 completed manually. so BB(36) = Church 2^256 is proven modulo bugs in BB.lhs
21:35:46 <tromp> some TODOs could be eliminated if we can have H ::= □ | \v. H | H T | freeV H and B^V ::= W^V X^V | \v. B^V | B^V T | freeV B^V
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21:43:59 <int-e> tromp: that's probably fine
21:44:55 <tromp> thanks for probable blessing:-)
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21:52:11 <int-e> tromp: you can generalize that a bit further to freeV T^* H
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21:52:42 <int-e> (that * is replication, not function iteration)
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21:55:15 <tromp_> oh, good point, a normal form normalizes all arguments of a free variable
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22:09:13 <zzo38> Here is my document for TeXnicard change set format: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui/artifact/7fd7e8d9db30a7ca or http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui/raw/changeset.doc?name=7fd7e8d9db30a7ca2cb46cc5b0e3c03e064f7173 Now you can see if it is good or not, and what comment you have of it.
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00:56:44 <zzo38> How to add something to the list of application ID numbers of SQLite? I tried to tell them but doesn't seem to do.
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03:33:20 <zzo38> Resistor colours seem to be made to make it easily enough to remember, even without mnemonics, I think.
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11:16:40 <tromp> int-e: or further to freeV T^* H T^*
11:24:05 <int-e> tromp: that makes no difference
11:24:41 <int-e> because H ::= ... | H T | ...
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11:45:19 <int-e> (obviously it may make a difference to how you implement it)
11:45:46 <int-e> tromp: Maybe rename H to S though (for "strict context" rather than "head context")
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13:01:29 <tromp> int-e: z T H T is different from z T (H T)
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13:14:14 <tromp> oops, right you are
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15:41:24 <tromp> testing my impl of strict heads...
15:42:17 <tromp> so far it eliminated -- TODO: \(\1 1) (\1 (\3 (2 1)))
15:51:53 <tromp> and -- TODO: \\(\1 1) (\1 (\3 (2 1)))
15:53:43 <myname> oh dear, i forgot how to make dwarfs haul trash
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16:05:58 <tromp> and 4 more TODOs at 36
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16:17:09 <Taneb> myname: set a dump zone with i, then mark each item as "dump", either individually through the k-interface, or for an area with d
16:17:47 <myname> yeah i found that out. it's interesting what i actually remember
16:18:17 <myname> i dodn't play in years, but qad to queue manufactoring of a door was still quite natural to me
16:19:26 <myname> i hope, pigs still don't need gras
16:21:19 <b_jonas> I cleaned my home keyboard
16:21:23 <Taneb> Seems like it, per the wiki
16:24:13 <myname> the wiki is poor if you want to look up _how_ to do stuff sometimes
16:24:43 <myname> the entry about doors mentions three main settings but not how to toggle between those
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17:02:16 <esowiki> [[Nuts]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71256&oldid=71255 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) deadlink + typofix
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17:15:50 <esowiki> [[42]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71257&oldid=58478 * Silver * (+426) linked an implementation
17:17:33 <esowiki> [[User:Silver]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71258&oldid=69629 * Silver * (+49) added 42 implementation link
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18:22:10 <esowiki> [[User talk:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71259&oldid=67444 * OsmineYT * (+108)
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18:22:25 <esowiki> [[User talk:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71260&oldid=71259 * OsmineYT * (+1)
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18:29:55 <esowiki> [[User:Willicoder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71261&oldid=71242 * Willicoder * (+141)
18:30:13 <esowiki> [[User:Willicoder]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71262&oldid=71261 * Willicoder * (+9)
18:31:44 <esowiki> [[USERA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71263&oldid=67475 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+159) cats, typofix, example
18:33:44 <esowiki> [[H]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71264&oldid=67674 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Examples of programs */ you had two commands in your quine h and q, so fixed
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18:42:50 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71265&oldid=71236 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* U */
18:43:10 <esowiki> [[User:Willicoder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71266&oldid=71262 * Willicoder * (+357)
18:47:58 <esowiki> [[Jsfunc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71267 * OsmineYT * (+18) Created page with "{{lowercase}} Yeah"
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19:00:57 <esowiki> [[Secretary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71268&oldid=42219 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) User:Wingpad has a capital W
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19:21:41 <myname> oh fuck, i have a dead donkey in my dining room
19:31:21 <int-e> `? donkey business
19:31:24 <HackEso> donkey business? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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20:42:19 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71269&oldid=71240 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) PythonshellDebugwindow changed the content model of the page [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] from "JSON" to "CSS"
20:42:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/contentmodel]] change * PythonshellDebugwindow * PythonshellDebugwindow changed the content model of the page [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] from "JSON" to "CSS"
20:44:07 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71270&oldid=71269 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) PythonshellDebugwindow changed the content model of the page [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] from "CSS" to "wikitext"
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20:44:23 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71271&oldid=71270 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-144) Replaced content with "A hello World"
20:44:53 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71272&oldid=71271 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18)
20:44:56 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71273&oldid=71272 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3)
21:00:00 <esowiki> [[Welcome To...]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71274&oldid=71241 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1177) /* Board file */
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22:52:28 <esowiki> [[JvN29]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71275 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+56) Created page with "# REDIRECT [[Von Neumann's 29-state cellular automaton]]"
22:52:36 <esowiki> [[JvN29]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71276&oldid=71275 * Hdjensofjfnen * (-1) Redirected page to [[Von Neumann's 29-state cellular automaton]]
23:02:23 <esowiki> [[John Horton Conway]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71277&oldid=30873 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+14)
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23:58:23 <esowiki> [[Grawlix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71278&oldid=69616 * DMC * (+105) /* Functions */
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00:41:06 <esowiki> [[Solo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71279&oldid=68168 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+116) Example + cats
00:41:55 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71280&oldid=71265 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* S */ add Solo
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02:49:19 <zzo38> Is there a command in CSS to replace a sequence of text characters with a picture?
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04:21:19 <zzo38> Now the source code of Super ZZT is also available. Super ZZT has some creatures that ZZT doesn't have, but two are unimplemented, and one is only partially implemented (it looks like to me that it is meant to chase the player with a zig zag path, although it tries to use unsigned variables as signed and fails to even update the sign correctly, too)
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06:06:08 <esowiki> [[Jsfunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71281&oldid=71267 * OsmineYT * (+18)
06:07:14 <esowiki> [[Jsfunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71282&oldid=71281 * OsmineYT * (+0)
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07:10:46 <zzo38> I added into TeXnicard a command to use the external editor to edit user variables (which may be used for such things as notes for the card set). I also started making a card set using TeXnicard now.
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08:30:49 <cpressey> Since we call the numbers 0, 1, 2, ... the natural numbers, I've taken to calling all other numbers, unnatural numbers.
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08:42:42 <b_jonas> cpressey: and call (1+i) an unimaginary number
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09:04:58 <rain1> what about a big number nobody commented on yet?
09:20:42 <esowiki> [[Jsfunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71283&oldid=71282 * OsmineYT * (+147)
09:20:59 <esowiki> [[Jsfunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71284&oldid=71283 * OsmineYT * (-1)
09:22:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:Jsfunc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71285 * OsmineYT * (+239) Created page with "== General discussion == Yeah, I know this is stub, because I don't had enough time to write this article. Maybe this will be changed in the future. --~~~~ duh."
09:23:54 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71286&oldid=68691 * OsmineYT * (+34)
09:24:25 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71287&oldid=71286 * OsmineYT * (+27)
09:24:34 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71288&oldid=71287 * OsmineYT * (+4)
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09:33:23 <esowiki> [[Grid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71289&oldid=70015 * Hakerh400 * (-44) Use internal links for wikipedia articles rather than external references
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10:16:15 <esowiki> [[User:Saka]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71290&oldid=66469 * Saka * (+53)
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10:43:55 <kspalaiologos> real queston: how constraining is it, when underload strings may be at most 32 bytes lonf
10:44:46 <Taneb> What exactly do you mean by "strings"?
10:54:22 <myname> is there something that prevents me from implementing my own c-style like strings on there?
10:55:18 <myname> like, if the last byte is not a zero, get the next value from the stack and interpret it as a continuation of the current string
10:55:37 <myname> slight drawback is a maximum of 31 byte overhead per string
11:09:33 <fizzie> Underload is hard enough (well, IMO) anyway, even without attempting to deal with a limitation like that.
11:16:08 <fizzie> A lot of programs contain (...):^ where ... is a substantial chunk of the program, and that involves having ... on the stack. It's not immediately obvious how to translate that to requiring less stack size.
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11:47:08 <kspalaiologos> you can push as many things onto stack as you want
11:47:17 <kspalaiologos> BUT size of a single element can't exceed certain size
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12:01:32 <tromp> int-e: was able to complete a BB(37) search with latest code. got 49 TODOs...
12:07:46 <rain1> wow that's exciting!
12:08:07 <fizzie> kspalaiologos: That's what I meant. If you have a big outer loop, the natural construction is (...this is a long sequence of code, probably more than 32 bytes...):^ and it's not trivial (if it's even possible) to do that in pieces.
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12:31:06 <tromp> i suspect that BB(37) = BB(35) + 2 :-(
12:35:01 <Taneb> What's the worst-case slowdown translating a turing machine into lambda calculus, I wonder?
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13:05:32 <int-e> Taneb: it's basically functional programming... the tape becomes two stacks (cons lists), and the rest is finite control, so it's a constant factor for any fixed TM.
13:06:25 <Taneb> Is it therefore appropriate to expect BB_TM to be proportional to BB_LC?
13:06:59 <int-e> The finite control plus two stacks is a vanishingly small fragment of what LC can do.
13:07:21 <int-e> But on the other hand, sizes are not comparable at all either.
13:08:35 <int-e> If you're explicit about the construction you'll find functions f and g (probably polynomial) such that BB_TM(n) <= BB_LC(f(n)) and BB_LC(n) <= BB_TM(g(n)).
13:09:35 <int-e> But those bounds will be very coarse.
13:10:15 <int-e> (Because they'd be obtained by mapping lambda terms to a small fragment of Turing machines, and Turing machines to a small fragment of lambda terms.)
13:16:27 <tromp> f(n) <= 2*n*ceil(log_2(4*n+4))+O(1)
13:18:42 <tromp> g(n) is probably sublinear
13:20:48 <int-e> tromp: Uhm, that's a different BB_LC.
13:22:49 <int-e> The one we're currently studying (more you than I) doesn't have a dense encoding for bitstrings.
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13:27:34 <tromp> so then the 2*n shld be replaced by 28*n
13:27:41 <int-e> It's easy to encode 1 bit in 4-5 bits or 2 bits in 3-7 bits.
13:28:14 <int-e> you can do stuff like 1 (2 (1 (2 3))) for [0,1,0,1].
13:29:08 <int-e> (4-7, not 3-7, of course)
13:29:46 <int-e> I suppose you can get quite a bit more elaborate than that and get some way below 3.5 bits per bit.
13:30:51 <int-e> (But base 5 is ugly when talking about bitstrings.)
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13:36:10 <int-e> > (4.5, 5.5/2, 6.5/logBase 2 6, 7.5/3) -- actually we can reverse the meanings of 1 and 2 (or 1..4) to make sure we get an encoding that only uses the average length, even in the worst case.
13:36:40 <int-e> > (4.5, 5.5/2, 7/logBase 2 7, 7.5/3)
13:37:05 <int-e> (I misread which base gave the optimal number of bits in this setting)
13:38:04 <int-e> So, 2.5 bits per bit if we encode in base 8. That's... better than expected already.
13:39:24 <int-e> > [(4 + (n-1)/2) / logBase 2 n | n <- [2,4,7,8]]
14:03:32 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: my guess is that 32 bytes would be very limiting, but with a much larger constant size you could probably still implement a turing machine
14:03:47 <b_jonas> or a finite control two-stack machine or whatnot
14:04:15 <b_jonas> it's just that each of those elements will be very long because they each contain full a program for that two-stack machine,
14:04:26 <b_jonas> but since you can write a univeral machine for that, the size is effectively constant
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14:07:32 <b_jonas> this would be a rather inefficient means of computation of course, worse than brainfuck
14:07:47 <kspalaiologos> because I thought about implementing underload in Brainfuck
14:08:11 <kspalaiologos> it requires a lot of dynamic memory allocation I can't really simplify this much
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15:13:17 <esowiki> [[I like frog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71291&oldid=71188 * Apollyon094 * (+2)
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15:17:54 <esowiki> [[I like frog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71292&oldid=71291 * Apollyon094 * (-1)
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15:35:41 <rain1> did wolfram discover rule 30
15:44:06 <int-e> it was always there
15:44:09 <Cale> I think that is one thing that is genuinely due to him. He invented the numbering scheme used for the simple 1D cellular automata.
15:46:03 <int-e> yeah I was going to ask about the numbering scheme
15:46:18 <int-e> (and also about who made this study systematic)
15:46:58 <rain1> it blows my mind that nobody enumerated the 1d CAs before
15:47:02 <Cale> In general, Wolfram seems to like taking credit for other people's work though, so it wouldn't really surprise me much to find out that it was someone else.
15:47:05 <rain1> and noticed that rule 30 was interesting
15:47:16 <rain1> yeah that's my reason for asking
15:47:31 <int-e> Well, who knows what people do in their basement (so to speak).
15:50:02 <rain1> > The concept was originally discovered in the 1940s by Stanislaw Ulam and John von Neumann while they were contemporaries at Los Alamos National Laboratory. While studied by some throughout the 1950s and 1960s, it was not until the 1970s and Conway's Game of Life
15:50:05 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:39: error: parse error on input ‘in’
15:50:55 <Cale> There was a point in time at which if you wanted to know how cellular automata would play out, your best bet would be to get some graph paper and start filling in squares
15:52:00 <rain1> im trying to look into what these 2 folks did on CA first
15:52:01 <int-e> Yeah hard to imagine doing this systematically without at least a matrix dot printer, and preferrably a pixel-oriented monitor.
15:53:33 <int-e> But also the basement thing... it's easy to dismiss concrete cellular automata as a cute hobby that's not worth publishing.
15:57:27 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_cellular_automaton
15:57:41 <rain1> it seems like the original guys were working on 2d CAs, similar to wireworld kind of
15:58:13 <int-e> I imagine the self-replication by simple rules was the driving idea there.
16:01:06 <rain1> https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/cellular-automata/#BrieHist
16:05:44 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis%E2%80%93Hedlund%E2%80%93Lyndon_theorem is anyone familiar with this?
16:06:52 <b_jonas> rain1: we have an article at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Von_Neumann%27s_29-state_cellular_automaton too
16:12:55 <rain1> is anyone reading any good new math or CS books?
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16:31:13 <Taneb> I'm reading some good old maths or CS books (there's a lot of them to work through)
16:32:13 <rain1> what are your favorite ones?
16:33:01 <Taneb> Currently reading Quantum Computation and Quantum Information by Nielsen and Chuang
16:33:09 <rain1> oh yeah that's a good one
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17:47:56 <rain1> nothing right now! I'm trying to find something good
17:48:18 <rain1> I last read a good one about basic particle physics explained via lego
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18:38:30 <kritixilithos> i've started reading these lecture notes on computablity, arithmetical hierarchy, ... https://www.comp.nus.edu.sg/~fstephan/recursiontheory-pdflatex.pdf, but have been meaning to get back at it sometime
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18:41:50 <rain1> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Particle-Physics-Brick-Ben-Still/dp/184403934X
18:42:38 <rain1> these notes look fun
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19:10:11 <zzo38> I would hope that some of us can make working together on making TeXnicard and on the templates. Even though I would probably write most of the C/SQL/PostScript codes myself, I would hope other people can help too, such as contributing templates, making bug reports and feature requests, examining the way the codes are written in order to complain about it, improving documentation, etc.
19:12:49 <zzo38> I do not know who to ask, really.
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19:30:13 <rain1> https://www.twitch.tv/stephen_wolfram
19:31:40 <dnm> zzo38: TeXnicard?
19:41:06 <zzo38> dnm: It is a program to managing and rendering custom cards for games such as Magic: the Gathering. It is an alternative to Magic Set Editor.
19:41:49 <esowiki> [[FileCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71293&oldid=69675 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) cat adds
19:55:40 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71294&oldid=71189 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24)
19:59:19 <zzo38> Perhaps, I should add a frequently ask question section too.
19:59:33 <zzo38> There is a Fossil repository available at: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui
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20:03:25 <dnm> zzo38: Thanks for the link. Just checked out the Fossil site.
20:04:57 <dnm> Among other things, I had never heard of Farbfeld before, so now I know something about that (mostly, that it exists).
20:08:49 <zzo38> The link to Farbfeld Utilities describes the file format, which is simple. Farbfeld can be a useful format to process pictures within pipes; I personally do not use it as an on disk storage format, although the inventor of the format suggested using farbfeld compressed with bzip2 as an on disk storage format.
20:43:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71295&oldid=71245 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29)
20:45:40 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71296&oldid=71294 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2384) /* Unnamed language 2 */
20:46:08 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71297&oldid=71296 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Unnamed language 2 */
21:32:32 <HackEso> 1107) <kmc> Sgeo: oh yeah those animated characters were built into the operating system and there was an API for them
21:34:17 <b_jonas> why do VGA cards even have a mode with blink attribute for text mode? blinking cursor, that I can see, but blinking characters are just annoying
21:34:27 <b_jonas> why'd they build that into hardware?
21:35:22 <b_jonas> I mean, in VGA it's mostly redundant because you could just emulate it by changing palette colors
21:35:49 <zzo38> The other PC video cards have that too in text mode
21:36:54 <zzo38> I am not really sure why they put that in, although that function can be disabled.
21:36:58 <kmc> I'm guessing it was less of a "this is super useful" and more of a "we have this leftover attribute bit and this can be implemented with minimal hardware"
21:37:16 <kmc> it could be used for error messages to get the user's attention
21:37:42 <zzo38> Yes, probably. ZZT also uses it for flashy water
21:38:00 <b_jonas> or as decoration in like moves about hacking
21:38:04 <kmc> if the hardware supports blinking cursor then not much extra hardware is required for blinking arbitrary text
21:38:40 <zzo38> Yes, although the CRTC chip they used already supports cursor blinking, and yet they didn't use it, implementing their own instead.
21:38:54 <zzo38> Also, the cursor blinking rate and text blinking rate are different (although they are synchronized).
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22:30:28 <HackEso> EARTH HAS 4 CORNER SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY TIME CUBE IN ONLY 24 HOUR ROTATION. 4 CORNER DAYS, CUBES 4 QUAD EARTH. Bible A Lie & Word Is Lies. Navel Connects 4 Corner 4s. God Is Born Of A Mother - She Left Belly B. Signature. Your dirty lying teachers use only the midnight to midnight 1 day (ignoring 3 other days) Time to not foul (already wrong) bible time. Lie that corrupts earth you educated stupid fools.
22:30:43 <b_jonas> teaches that Earth is a cube, then is http://www.rogermwilcox.com/square_earth.html the Time square?
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22:42:02 <fizzie> . o O (And how's that linked to Times Square?)
23:13:15 <int-e> Well, follow a road to Rome, then find the road from Times Square (which also leads to Rome) and traverse it backwards.
23:13:36 <int-e> (universal directions)
23:16:20 <shachaf> i,i MAY YOU LIVE IN N-ARY TIMES OPERATOR
23:47:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71298&oldid=71295 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0)
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03:45:48 <esowiki> [[Egaharjb]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71299 * DanielCristofani * (+1691) Created page with "This is a very simple language I designed accidentally. It consists only of regex find-and-replaces with loops; it's meant for banging text files into a different shape, but i..."
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04:32:11 <zzo38> Maybe the version control file in TeXnicard should store multiple versions
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07:47:13 <Sgeo> http://www.froup.com/tr/tr.pl?242
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09:13:35 <esowiki> [[Egaharjb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71300&oldid=71299 * DanielCristofani * (+531)
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09:17:31 <esowiki> [[Egaharjb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71301&oldid=71300 * DanielCristofani * (+740)
09:20:24 <kspalaiologos> "given two rooted trees, calculate minimal amount of leafs to remove so that the trees are isomorphic" <- is there a smarter solution to that than bruteforce?
09:22:59 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71302&oldid=71280 * DanielCristofani * (+15) /* E */
09:26:47 <esowiki> [[Egaharjb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71303&oldid=71301 * DanielCristofani * (+0)
09:34:32 <int-e> kspalaiologos: are those trees ordered or unordered?
09:35:55 <int-e> (just clarifying, it may not even make any real difference to hardness)
09:36:17 <kspalaiologos> I've heard that there's a more optimal solution to this problem
09:36:42 <int-e> "more optimal" :-/
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09:45:22 <esowiki> [[Cell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71304&oldid=68083 * OsmineYT * (+56)
09:45:35 <int-e> kspalaiologos: but rooted, I hope
09:46:05 <int-e> I suspect this one is actually in P.
09:48:44 <int-e> It's amenable to dynamic programming (in order to figure out the answer for the root, first compute the answer for all pairs of children of the root), with maximum weight bipartite matching to combine those values.
09:49:17 <int-e> (For this purpose, the value that is to be maximized is the number of leafs kept.)
09:52:10 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71305&oldid=71288 * OsmineYT * (+16)
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09:52:59 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71306&oldid=71305 * OsmineYT * (+1)
09:53:26 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71307&oldid=71306 * OsmineYT * (-16)
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09:55:02 <int-e> (Any unpaired children end up with 0 leafs; they are deleted in full. There may well be an off-by-one error in this logic, but essentially it should work like this.)
09:59:59 <int-e> Eww, Firefox, why? Why enlarge the location bar when it's focused?
10:12:12 <int-e> Meh. It can be disabled, at least for now, https://lifehacker.com/how-to-disable-firefox-75s-new-address-bar-1842728031
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10:19:02 <int-e> (It's actually kind of impressive just how offensive I find this idea. I feel like they're pushing that thing into my face. But it probably comes from having trained myself to notice and act upon minor visual cues from the UI for decades. Oh and I hate change.)
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10:19:22 <int-e> kspalaiologos: parsing seems to be the easy part :P
10:19:43 <kspalaiologos> I'm essentially in a point where I have the labeled tree's hashmap built
10:21:50 <esowiki> [[Egaharjb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71308&oldid=71303 * Keymaker * (+194) Added some categories.
10:30:07 <esowiki> [[Daniel B. Cristofani]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71309&oldid=30550 * DanielCristofani * (+18)
10:37:09 <rain1> https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/3627784/does-the-fraction-of-distinct-substrings-in-prefixes-of-the-thue-morse-sequence perhaps this question is of interest to folks here
10:49:33 <esowiki> [[Beatnik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71310&oldid=67619 * OsmineYT * (+65)
11:07:56 <rain1> I wonder which substrings do not occur
11:08:45 <rain1> or do all substrings occur? but some occur multiple times
11:08:55 <tromp> BB*36) looking mighty impressive on https://oeis.org/A333479
11:17:26 <int-e> how much do you trust those numbers?
11:19:36 <tromp> not with my life, but would be willing to stake some money on them
11:20:30 <esowiki> [[Egaharjb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71311&oldid=71308 * DanielCristofani * (+18)
11:21:23 <esowiki> [[Egaharjb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71312&oldid=71311 * DanielCristofani * (-4)
11:23:33 <tromp> so about as much as i trust numbers in https://oeis.org/A094777
11:32:05 <int-e> tromp: Hmm, on the OEIS page, maybe you could mention the 5n+6 thing?
11:33:45 <int-e> tromp: And about the Go enumeration, do you have the number(s) of edge states somewhere?
11:37:14 <int-e> Ah, the paper has it. 363,324,268,018
11:37:28 <tromp> yes, also mentioned on my webpage
11:38:27 <tromp> sure, i can add 5n+6. and links to the BB files
11:41:40 <esowiki> [[Control Flow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71313&oldid=51805 * IFcoltransG * (+1432) Added a few more control flow examples and the Concepts category
11:48:08 <spruit11> Hip, hip, hooray! My little paper is on arXiv.
12:12:57 <esowiki> [[Modulo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71314 * OsmineYT * (+183) Created page with "'''Modulo''' is esolang invented and created by [[User:OsmineYT]]. All commands must start with "%" (modulo, percent) sign. == Syntax == Every Modulo command starts with modu..."
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12:39:18 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71315&oldid=71307 * OsmineYT * (+95)
12:45:10 <int-e> . o O ( There are three kinds of people, those who believe in the law of excluded middle and those who don't. )
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14:00:23 <spruit11> Hmm... True, false, neither. Technically correct?
14:06:13 <esowiki> [[FarTooGeneral]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71316 * Baidicoot * (+2337) Created page with "= FarTooGeneral = FarTooGeneral (FTG) is an esoteric 'execution architecture' created by [[/wiki/User:Baidicoot|User:Baidicoot]] during the COVID-19 pandemic as a means of not..."
14:10:46 <esowiki> [[FarTooGeneral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71317&oldid=71316 * Baidicoot * (+199) /* Execution */
14:11:22 <esowiki> [[FarTooGeneral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71318&oldid=71317 * Baidicoot * (+13) /* Example Data Structures */
14:32:12 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71319&oldid=70544 * Orby * (+85)
14:34:49 <esowiki> [[FarTooGeneral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71320&oldid=71318 * Baidicoot * (+1169)
14:36:33 <esowiki> [[FarTooGeneral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71321&oldid=71320 * Baidicoot * (+133) /* Example Program */
14:37:12 <esowiki> [[FarTooGeneral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71322&oldid=71321 * Baidicoot * (-25) /* Example Program */
14:38:57 <esowiki> [[Disan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71323&oldid=65501 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+57) cats
14:39:22 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71324&oldid=71302 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* D */
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14:56:06 <esowiki> [[ASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71325&oldid=70435 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) /* Examples */ fix link
14:56:38 <esowiki> [[ASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71326&oldid=71325 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) /* Examples */ pipe trick
14:58:41 <tromp> int-e: the following appears to be looping, but is still a bit of a challenge to prove:
14:58:43 <tromp> -- TODO: (\1 1) (\1 (1 (\\2 (3 1))))
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16:42:56 <zzo38> Do you have some ideas about the change set format and version control file format of TeXnicard? I thought that perhaps the version control file should store multiple versions, just writing the new version at the end after the previous version. Two new fields can be added in the header, one points to the most recent key frame (since there is no need to read previous frames), and other one points to the end of the file.
16:43:33 <zzo38> (You need one to point to the end of the file in case the data is partially written at the end, so that it is possible to recover from it.)
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17:46:48 <esowiki> [[Gummy Bear]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71327 * Hakerh400 * (+15940) +[[Gummy Bear]]
17:46:53 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71328&oldid=71324 * Hakerh400 * (+17) +[[Gummy Bear]]
17:46:57 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71329&oldid=71249 * Hakerh400 * (+17) +[[Gummy Bear]]
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18:32:15 <imode> I recall someone in here playing ifMUD.
18:32:18 <imode> zzo38: was it you?
18:32:50 <imode> how do permissions/ownership principles work in ifMUD? if a person designs an object and others use it, how malicious can it be?
18:33:21 <zzo38> imode: It can teleport the user, but not much else.
18:34:20 <imode> I see. can one user's object interact with another user's object? is there a dedicated permissions system?
18:34:59 <zzo38> No, there is no permission system, unfortunately.
18:35:27 <zzo38> (Well, there is a very limited one: If an object has the "examinable" flag set, then other users, and programs by other users, can read that object's fields; otherwise they are unreadable.)
18:36:24 <zzo38> There are also listening exits, which it would seem can be triggered by programs, so this can be done to activate another object remotely by a program even if you do not own it.
18:37:25 <zzo38> I wanted a more sophisticated permission system, where you can define group/other permissions (similar to UNIX permissions) on field names and on prefixes of field names (where the "group" is actually a channel), although this is not currently implemented.
18:37:47 <oren> why do all putty-based terminal software hate diacricits
18:38:31 <oren> does anyone know of a terminal software that doesn't hate diacritics?
18:38:36 <imode> zzo38: how easy/difficult would you say it'd be to implement something like this purely in ifMUD coe?
18:40:01 <zzo38> imode: The permissions system I mentioned I think would have to be done in Perl, although there are many things that can be done in ifMUD code; you can look at some of my object codes (most of them are set examinable) in order to see how I have done some of them
18:40:47 <imode> is ifMUD extensible via perl?
18:41:26 <zzo38> It is written in Perl, although only the server operator can alter its code (although apparently it is possible to alter it while it is running; I am not sure how that works, though)
18:42:06 <imode> the reason I ask is that I'm debating between including a permissions system for my project or allowing "world builders" to add it via plugins (along with other pieces of code).
18:42:30 <imode> right now all I do is hand you a postfix lang, a key-value db and a chat system.
18:42:46 <imode> and a way to import procedures via a "package manager".
18:44:13 <zzo38> I think that a permission system should be added, more than what ifMUD currently has (which is only the "examinable" flag, which isn't much)
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19:09:49 <zzo38> Perhaps the prefix-based permissions like I mentioned might do.
19:13:52 <imode> thanks for the info. I think I've decided to have a very, very basic set of permissions that are applicable regardless of intent. owners of "servers" can determine who can use what procedures and primitives, and create roles for people that join.
19:35:44 <arseniiv> imode: oh you are making a multi-world-something-thing?
19:37:53 <arseniiv> and using that queue-based language we’ve discussed a handful of times? how had it evolved, did you add something else to threading?
19:45:09 <imode> arseniiv: yup! I'm taking a majority of the language and turning it into a multi-"world" multi-user environment.
19:45:24 <imode> I scrapped the concurrency features.
19:45:48 <imode> but I added things like lists, strings, floats, local and global (across all procedures and persistent) variables.
19:47:14 <imode> if you make a user account, you can join "worlds" other users have created.
19:48:10 <imode> each of these worlds constitutes a key-value database, a set of procedures, and a set of groups. there's also a package manager and a central package repository for importing new features into your world.
19:48:30 <arseniiv> that’s interesting. I’ll help you test this thing if you’d be interesting and I would be able to set up the things it would need
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19:49:41 <imode> I'd love that! I plan on launching a private alpha to interested parties to test things out. eventually, I plan on having world ownership be a subscription service.
19:51:40 <imode> tiered by resources, essentially. if you want a larger call depth, more key-value entries, longer programs and larger scratch space, you can have that.
19:53:57 <arseniiv> imode: BTW how do you see (hm I forgot the accurate term) a “named-field spreadsheet” thing where if X is defined using Y and Y’s definition changes, X’s value would change automatically (and if X depends on itself, the system would strongly criticize you and not do anything)? It may or may not be useful in such setting. Certainly not for all definitions, but maybe for some specially marked ones
19:55:01 <imode> I'd see that as a dataflow graph.
19:55:32 <imode> if you change a cell, all cells that depend on that cell would have to update, and all cells that depend on the newly updated cells would have to update, so on and so forth.
19:55:51 <arseniiv> (in any case you can lambdabot me if I won’t be around, I’m lazy to logread for a long long time now)
19:56:04 <arseniiv> yeah that’s how I understand that thing is implemented
19:56:15 <imode> there's not much else you can do.
19:56:15 <arseniiv> and you check for cycles when a definition changes
19:57:12 <arseniiv> it can be made into a its own kind of storage if it’s useful, but I didn’t experiment with this before, only read about it
19:59:32 <zzo38> I am not so interested in what imode is making unless perhaps the source code will be freely available and fully documented, and can be used with a telnet client. I also have no interest in joining a private alpha, regardless of the conditions.
20:01:49 <imode> well, if it helps, I plan on releasing a self-hostable version in the future that's FOSS.
20:02:38 <zzo38> Yes, that can help.
20:02:47 <imode> gotta make money somehow in the interrim.
20:03:18 <zzo38> Yes, OK, and even if the self-hostable FOSS version is available, you can still charge money for using on your server too, anyways, I think
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20:05:04 <imode> correct. typically there's a good stretch between when something is available and when the product is open sourced. the start-up costs involved are made back by the exclusivity in the first couple of months, and then after that you have an existing user base that's already present on your infra.
20:05:46 <imode> so people who really wanna dig into the code and self-host will be happy, but I can still pay my engineers and offer convenience.
20:11:38 <Taneb> Today I was pondering about what monads in the poset of sets and the subset relation, considered as a category, look like
20:11:58 <Taneb> Then the friend I was talking to googled and apparently they're closure operators, which are apparently a thing
20:14:26 <Taneb> I love it when things are things
20:15:45 <arseniiv> and comonads there are… damn, I forgot the part where I read about functions on set algebras being the other way. They had a name for that too
20:17:09 <Taneb> Coclosure operator?
20:19:42 <arseniiv> Taneb: they had a usual name too, I think that was a chapter in Pierce, on recursive types, maybe regarding to the difference between μ and ν. That required a more general theory which I’ll try to find now what it was there about
20:26:53 <zzo38> TeXnicard seem not the only alternative to Magic Set Editor; I also found something called PrincessEdit, although I cannot seem to find any documentation about how to use it.
20:26:58 <arseniiv> ah, I found that part. There, several properties of a subset X ⊂ U, given a function F: P(U) → P(U) (P is powerset), are defined: X is F-closed if X ⊂ F(X), is F-consistent if F(X) ⊂ X (and a fixed point if F(X) = X, but that’s not interesting). So that’s not too related to closure operators but if it somehow is, co-operators may be called “consistency operators”, hm
20:30:03 <arseniiv> ah, I see. For F being a closure operator at least requires any X ⊂ U be F-closed
20:30:30 <arseniiv> so F being a “consistency operator” should require any X be F-consistent
20:31:08 <arseniiv> as of monotonicity and idempotency of F in this case, I don’t know
20:33:34 <arseniiv> ah there is a simpler axiomatization: X ⊂ F(Y) iff F(X) ⊂ F(Y). Now it’s obvious how to dualize that! F(X) ⊂ Y iff F(X) ⊂ F(Y). And also we can plainly see monadic bind and comonadic extend here too, yeah
20:34:05 <arseniiv> in Kleisli or something something form
20:34:25 <arseniiv> I don’t know what I’m saying here
20:35:09 <arseniiv> ah, yes, they say on en.wikipedia the dual is called a kernel operator indeed! Or also an interior operator or a dual closure
20:36:53 <arseniiv> also when axiomatizing closure via monotonicity, idempotency and “any X is F-closed”, they say the dual has both first and second unchanged
20:40:39 <b_jonas> oh jesus, pointless topolocy
20:40:46 <b_jonas> this channel can get weird about mathematics
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20:43:38 <arseniiv> b_jonas: topology is pointless, resistance is futile. We are fixed point
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20:57:31 <arseniiv> does a word for cold (an illness) in your languages have something in common not with being cold/chilled/frozen?
20:59:52 <fizzie> We typically call the common cold "flunssa", which as a word is obviously related to influenza/flu, which we call "influenssa".
21:00:16 <fizzie> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flunssa
21:01:04 <arseniiv> I was afraid I caught a cold and I noted once more that in Russian it related to being in the cold toom roughly it translates as “a state related to having been in the cold earlier”
21:02:30 <fizzie> Finnish does also have a cold-related synonym "vilustuminen", which is roughly "becoming cold" except not quite.
21:03:42 <fizzie> That is, "vilu" is specifically the sensation of feeling cold, not so much a low temperature in an absolute sense.
21:04:27 <fizzie> (The latter would be "kylmä".)
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21:05:34 <arseniiv> I like distinctions like these in languages! So varying
21:06:18 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71334&oldid=71151 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+143)
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21:08:42 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71339&oldid=71227 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+197) /* Phile */
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21:45:59 <orbitaldecay> Do any of you fine esolangers know of an existing Forth that's based on SK calculus?
21:46:20 <orbitaldecay> I wrote one, but I don't want to add an entry to the wiki if it's already something that has been done.
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21:50:24 <orbitaldecay> Thank you! I think it's pretty neat. I'm excited about the idea. Did you look at boolean.skf?
21:50:38 <orbitaldecay> It seems to be possible to bootstrap a normal forth implementation using sk calculus
21:50:58 <imode> provided you can simulate things like RAM.
21:51:37 <orbitaldecay> I mean, theoretically possible, but probably a really slow way to go
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21:52:58 <orbitaldecay> I'll probably eventually introduce an integer type to speed up arithmetic, but I want to avoid doing that sort of thing as much as possible
21:54:26 <b_jonas> a forth based on SK combinator calculus? that sounds like contradiction
21:54:54 <imode> https://code.forder.cc/esolang/skiforth previously posted.
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22:07:18 <orbitaldecay> Don't get too excited, its basically unlambda in post-fix notation with the forth : ; syntax
22:07:29 <arseniiv> orbitaldecay: Did you look at boolean.skf? => yeah
22:08:09 <orbitaldecay> arseniiv: cool, I want to write a standard lib to build up the language like a regular forth
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22:08:41 <orbitaldecay> I was surprised at how quickly I was able to get away from using function application
22:17:35 <b_jonas> orbitaldecay: ok, I wouldn't call that either unlambda or forth
22:26:11 <orbitaldecay> b_jonas: I'm actually glad to hear you say that. I was trying to make something sufficiently different from both.
22:28:53 <orbitaldecay> The way the tokens are parsed and the : ; is very forth, hence the name. But under the hood it's totally different obviously.
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01:27:10 <zzo38> Is 12 kelvin more than the temperature in the room a reasonable temperature for a quad core Intel CPU?
01:32:54 <shachaf> That depends on the temperature in the room.
01:33:42 <shachaf> And also on what the CPU is doing and other things.
01:34:36 <zzo38> Temperature in the room is 17 Celsius, and the temperature of the CPU says 29.0 Celsius.
01:37:07 <zzo38> (Even when the temperature in the room is 21 Celsius, the CPU temperature seems to be from 10 to 12 kelvin higher.)
01:38:28 <pikhq> That seems like a reasonable temperature for a CPU.
02:05:28 <kmc> quite cool in fact
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02:08:37 <esowiki> [[Control Flow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71344&oldid=71313 * A * (+28) /* Redo statement */
02:10:20 <esowiki> [[Control Flow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71345&oldid=71344 * A * (+283) /* Higher-level Things */
02:10:34 <esowiki> [[Control Flow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71346&oldid=71345 * A * (-283) /* Try-Catch-Finally statement */
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02:59:57 <pikhq> Be nice if that were how more CPUs were temp-wise
03:04:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71347&oldid=71252 * OutRite * (+234) /* Introductions */
03:15:09 <imode> there has got to be a better way of writing web applications than spinning up a damn interpreted language every time you wanna do something.
03:17:40 <zzo38> You could use CGI. Fossil is written in C, so you could also use writing in C; Fossil also uses a special preprocessor so that you can include HTML codes directly in the C code without needing extra quoting and that stuff like you normally do in C.
03:18:08 <imode> FastCGI seems to have been "abandoned" standard-wise.
03:18:17 <imode> and I need support for server sent events.
03:19:59 <zzo38> If you need support for server sent events, a web application is probably the wrong way to do it.
03:21:02 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server-sent_events
03:22:32 <zzo38> A web application is still probably the wrong way to do things like that.
03:24:19 <imode> you're probably right: I considered wrapping an HTTP gateway around a raw TCP server.
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05:00:51 <pikhq> I honestly don't _get_ some of the FastCGI-like stuff
05:01:14 <pikhq> Some of them are basically running HTTP semantics, over a socket, with just an arbitrarily different protocol
05:01:30 <pikhq> At which point... why not just do HTTP with the expectation you'll have a reverse proxy in front?
05:01:48 <pikhq> If you're fully expecting a reverse proxy to be in play, an acceptable HTTP implementation is _not that hard_
05:21:50 <esowiki> [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71348&oldid=70455 * YamTokTpaFa * (+6) how about this design
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06:25:34 <esowiki> [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71350&oldid=71349 * YamTokTpaFa * (+35) /* Examples */ oops i almost forgot output command
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06:59:02 <zzo38> I have started making up a set of Magic: the Gathering cards in a TeXnicard database, which is available at: http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/zivstr.db
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06:59:48 <zzo38> (It is a SQLite database, so it can also be opened by the SQLite command line, although it is probably more useful to open it using TeXnicard.)
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09:25:20 <esowiki> [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71354&oldid=71350 * YamTokTpaFa * (+3) /* Examples */
09:26:10 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71355&oldid=71353 * Wzkchem5 * (+58)
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10:49:54 <esowiki> [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71356&oldid=71354 * YamTokTpaFa * (+0) /* Examples */ right parenthesis!
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11:07:22 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/A14!4 study]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71358 * YamTokTpaFa * (+386) Created page with "== mnemonic == OUT INX GO2 DLB SKP SXB SXF END BDS EDS RET CAL FGT INC DEC STR CSN CEN CSR CER CLR ABA AAC CN0 CN1 CN2 CN3 LXN VAX SUM DIF PRD AND XOR CW2 CW1 PM1 PM2 Can tho..."
11:26:22 <kspalaiologos> I didn't even think about adding numbers to my mnemonics
11:26:32 <kspalaiologos> now it opens a whole new spectrum to code obfuscation
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13:36:01 <Taneb> I'm thinking about the categories of monads on the finite categories 1, 2, 3, etc
13:36:20 <Taneb> It seems these categories form (n-1) dimensional hypercubes
13:58:43 <arseniiv> Taneb: how 1, 2, 3 are defined, are they just discrete categories on n objects or something more interesting? (can’t find anywhere for some reason)
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14:01:00 <arseniiv> in the morning I thought about counting all DAGs having only a single automorphism. Or maybe posets instead of DAGs, whichever would come easier
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14:03:04 <arseniiv> hm it seems 1, 2, 3 should not be discrete, or any endofunctor would be a monad and they won’t form cubes?..
14:04:50 <esowiki> [[Happy Fantasy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71359 * Hakerh400 * (+1426) +[[Happy Fantasy]]
14:04:56 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71360&oldid=71338 * Hakerh400 * (+20) +[[Happy Fantasy]]
14:05:00 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71361&oldid=71329 * Hakerh400 * (+20) +[[Happy Fantasy]]
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14:09:13 <Taneb> arseniiv: 3 for example has objects {0,1,2} and looks like 0 -> 1 -> 2
14:13:00 <Taneb> (plus identities and composits)
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14:21:09 <arseniiv> Taneb: ah, thanks! Linear orders, then?
14:23:26 <arseniiv> so, a functor is a monotone function, and a monad… let me see…
14:27:59 <Taneb> You have x <= f(x) and f(f(x)) <= f(x) for all x
14:28:07 <Taneb> Which imply f(x) = f(f(x))
14:28:22 <Taneb> So, f is monotone, increasing, and idempotent
14:31:00 <Taneb> (for a poset this is known as a closure operator)
14:31:31 <arseniiv> what functors wouldn’t be a monad in this case? Hm maybe I shouldn’t try to think one up for 3, maybe 4 or 5 would be needed?
14:31:44 <Taneb> There's an example for 2
14:31:54 <Taneb> If you map everything to 0
14:32:03 <Taneb> That's a functor but not a monad
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14:32:54 <arseniiv> ah hmmm I can’t see what condition does it break
14:33:43 <Taneb> We need the property that x <= f(x)
14:34:13 <arseniiv> now I get what did you call increasing
14:34:40 <Taneb> I've seen that property called extensive
14:34:48 <arseniiv> and I think I glimpse already how does it make cubes
14:38:52 <arseniiv> so, we should increment each of 0, …, n−1 some steps up, but at the same time leave a segment at the top intact. Hm, no, I don’t see cubes yet. That should somehow give us 2^(n−1) possibilities but that seems too many atm
14:39:23 <Taneb> How many vertices does an n-dimensional hypercube have
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14:47:43 <Taneb> Hmm, what's a monad in the category of monads in some category?
14:48:17 <Taneb> For these categories, the category of monads is a poset so this should be not too tricky
14:53:55 <Taneb> I wonder if a monad in the category of monads works out to be a "commutative monad" in the same way as a monoid in the category of monoids is a commutative monoid
15:03:08 <Taneb> I think the answer to that is "no"
15:03:19 <Taneb> Monad(Monad(2)) is a poset with seven elements, I think
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15:13:11 <Cale> A monad on a preorder is a closure operator.
15:13:38 <arseniiv> <Taneb> How many vertices does an n-dimensional hypercube have => ah I should have written 2^n but that’s even more than 2^(n−1) so I don’t yet see how could we have that many different monads there. I’ll draw some pictures later and then I think I’ll see
15:17:22 <Taneb> I believe we have 2^(n-1) monads
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15:22:07 <Cale> For a 2^n directed hypercube?
15:22:18 <Taneb> For the linear order of n elements
15:24:39 <Cale> Choose any subset, and let those be the closed elements
15:26:13 <Cale> Closure operators on a partially ordered set are uniquely determined by the set of closed elements
15:26:17 <Taneb> Take the linear order on {0,1,2}. There are four monads on that, which I have written as 012, 022, 112, 222
15:27:48 <Taneb> We can't take the empty set, and we must include the top element as closed
15:28:23 <Cale> It's the forced inclusion of the top that divides the number of options in two
15:33:21 <Taneb> That implies we can't take the empty set
15:35:04 <Taneb> I think more generally, for any set of elements, they must have a "least common closure"
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15:52:30 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71363&oldid=71341 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38)
15:53:04 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71364&oldid=71360 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* S */
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16:48:55 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71366&oldid=71213 * Palaiologos * (-80) discord server link
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16:59:38 <esowiki> [[FarTooGeneral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71367&oldid=71322 * Baidicoot * (+702)
17:01:52 <esowiki> [[FarTooGeneral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71368&oldid=71367 * Baidicoot * (+32) /* Extensions */
17:02:50 <esowiki> [[FarTooGeneral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71369&oldid=71368 * Baidicoot * (+38) /* Extensions */
17:03:07 <esowiki> [[FarTooGeneral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71370&oldid=71369 * Baidicoot * (+4) /* Extensions */
17:03:39 <esowiki> [[FarTooGeneral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71371&oldid=71370 * Baidicoot * (+13) /* Extensions */
17:09:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Stackint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71372&oldid=71365 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+257)
17:09:41 <esowiki> [[Stackint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71373&oldid=71362 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) /* Examples */
17:10:37 <esowiki> [[List of quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71374&oldid=70653 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Real Quines */ > /* Stackint */
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17:20:38 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71376&oldid=71375 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3783) /* Unnamed language 1 */
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17:22:08 <esowiki> [[Stackint]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71378&oldid=71373 * Willicoder * (+135)
17:22:16 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71379&oldid=71363 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69)
17:22:47 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71380&oldid=71364 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* P */ + [[Packlang]]
17:25:33 <esowiki> [[User:Willicoder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71381&oldid=71266 * Willicoder * (+17)
17:26:28 <esowiki> [[User:Willicoder]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71382&oldid=71381 * Willicoder * (-5)
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17:27:46 <kspalaiologos> I didn't get to figuring out what is the difference between ##x and #x and even ###x channels on freenode, someone willing to explain?
17:28:15 <kspalaiologos> from what I know, ##x channels don't have a strict topic, but for instance this channel doesn't have a strict topic too, but it's not prefixed with ##
17:29:46 <kmc> recall that Freenode is ostensibly a resource for open source software projects, not a general chat platform
17:29:57 <kmc> > Channels on freenode fall into one of two categories. Primary channels, which begin with a single # character, are reserved for on-topic projects. If you’d like to take over one of these channels, then you’ll need to be associated in some way with the project in question. Topical, or ‘about’ channels, begin with two # characters, and these are allocated on a first-come, first-served basis to the
17:29:59 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:36: error: parse error on input ‘of’
17:30:03 <kmc> first person who registers it with ChanServ.
17:31:27 <kmc> in theory all channels that start with a single # should be related to an open source software project of the same name
17:31:46 <kmc> however there are many grandfathered exceptions
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17:32:27 <kmc> I'm not aware of a special meaning for ###, I imagine it would be treated the same as ## as far as network-wide policy goes
17:32:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Stackint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71383&oldid=71372 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+316)
17:32:42 <kmc> and none of this has any direct relation to how strictly the ops of the channel enforce any stated topic
17:33:19 <kmc> I don't think off-topic chat in a #-channel puts you at risk of losing it or anything
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17:48:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Hello]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71384&oldid=20039 * Willicoder * (+68)
17:48:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71385&oldid=71384 * Willicoder * (+90)
17:51:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Stackint]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71386&oldid=71383 * Willicoder * (+119)
18:00:48 <pikhq> This channel in particular probably works out fine as far as policy goes, considering we are _in fact_, not just de jure, associated with esolangs.org
18:07:42 <kmc> and #trains is the official project channel of https://github.com/lexande/trainbot
18:07:46 <int-e> Which would make a good case for #esolangs
18:08:08 <int-e> But as far as I'm aware nobody's has been asking the question.
18:08:18 <int-e> (loudly enough to matter)
18:12:42 <esowiki> [[Stackint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71387&oldid=71378 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+34) /* Commands */
18:13:18 <zzo38> Do you have comments about my (incomplete) set of Magic: the Gathering cards? I would also want the help with rendering templates (especially graphics and fonts).
18:16:32 <zzo38> I may also later write a export template for HTML, although I want to fix it so that if CSS is disabled then the text will be visible and if enabled (and implemented) then it can display the icons.
18:18:58 <fungot> int-e: the guy complains how the lisp code alone. the pattern is
18:24:24 <zzo38> Now I added into the TeXnicard documentation about a common/ subdirectory for export templates, which contains files associated with the exported files for all card sets. For example, if you are exporting HTML, then icons and CSS may be included here; if you are exporting TeX, you may put a macro file here.
18:26:05 <zzo38> MSE has the copy_file function, although it requires the file to be copied for each exported card set.
18:33:44 <esowiki> [[+-]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71388&oldid=70555 * Willicoder * (+4)
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22:40:27 <zzo38> I am not the only SQLite user who wants NNTP access to their forum; it look like there is one other guy too, who like to do so.
22:44:07 <zzo38> It is some other guy that I don't know.
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00:16:15 <imode> gforth's socket library is surprisingly straightforward.
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03:15:55 <esowiki> [[COVID-19]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71389 * Wzkchem5 * (+12162) Created page with "The '''Computation-Oriented Virtual Infection of Disks, version 2019 (COVID-19)''' is an esoteric programming language. It ''infects'' the hard drive by making copies of the s..."
03:53:59 <imode> yeah, it's literally just "create a socket, pass around a buffer, receive into that buffer, do stuff with the buffer."
04:24:35 <pikhq> That's rather straightforward.
05:27:08 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71390 * TwilightSparkle * (+98) Created page with "== Easy == == Medium == == Hard == == Insane == == Obviously Medium-Graded == == Legendary =="
06:38:42 <dnm> shachaf: hey there! LTNS.
06:53:53 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71391&oldid=65987 * Cortex * (+155) Added a command from CHIQRSX9+
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07:23:55 <dnm> shachaf: How goes it?
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07:34:48 <dnm> shachaf: Ah. Understandable. How are you doing with the whole COVID-19 lockdown?
07:36:41 <shachaf> Hmm, I'm not sure I should talk about it in here.
07:38:15 <shachaf> I have been staying at home for about a month and a half.
07:39:04 <shachaf> I guess a bit longer than that.
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09:47:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Modulo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71392 * OsmineYT * (+226) Created page with "== Missing commands == There are no commands yet, because I need to figure out how to search commands with args from raw string in Python 3. --~~~~"
09:51:27 <esowiki> [[COVID-19]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71393&oldid=71389 * Wzkchem5 * (-156)
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09:53:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:COVID-19]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71394 * Wzkchem5 * (+279) Created page with "Hello, I'm the original author wzkchem5. I'm working on writing a 99 bottles of beer program using COVID-19. The page will only be made officially public after the 99 bottles..."
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11:58:43 <fungot> kspalaiologos: take define-syntax, make your bfasm be a backend. i'm sure they've got plans for it. :p
11:59:13 <fungot> kspalaiologos: it's the internet. the man sounds like a good, clean scheme parser written in c.
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12:26:42 <rain1> any thoughts on the substrings of the thue morse sequence?
12:41:43 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71396&oldid=71391 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) add 1,3 in name
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13:00:49 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71397&oldid=71396 * Willicoder * (-77)
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13:24:48 <esowiki> [[The Past]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71399 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+431) Created page with "'''The Past''' is a time-traveling esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Memory model== The Past uses an arbitrary-size signed integer accumulator. ==Commands== {| c..."
13:27:23 <esowiki> [[The Past]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71400&oldid=71399 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0)
13:29:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Past]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71401 * Willicoder * (+130) Created page with "How would the go back command even work? ~~~~"
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13:39:01 <esowiki> [[W (A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71402&oldid=70237 * LegionMammal978 * (+11) replace deleted repo with clone
13:39:03 <esowiki> [[Resource]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71403&oldid=68261 * LegionMammal978 * (+11) replace deleted repo with clone
13:39:05 <esowiki> [[Tq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71404&oldid=69732 * LegionMammal978 * (+11) replace deleted repo with clone
13:54:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Past]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71405&oldid=71401 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+284)
14:13:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Stopwatch]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71406 * LegionMammal978 * (+154) Created page with "What's the difference between a step and a split? ~~~~"
14:14:44 <esowiki> [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Turing-completeness proof]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71407 * YamTokTpaFa * (+5110) I think I have perfectly made the proof.
14:16:32 <esowiki> [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71408&oldid=71356 * YamTokTpaFa * (+178)
14:16:58 <esowiki> [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71409&oldid=71408 * YamTokTpaFa * (+0) WTF hyphen.
14:18:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:PureBrainz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71410 * LegionMammal978 * (+156) Created page with "Do you currently have a Python interpreter written? ~~~~"
14:21:15 <esowiki> [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71411&oldid=71407 * YamTokTpaFa * (+196) /* Assumptions */ assign clarification
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14:43:14 <esowiki> [[Talk:Modulo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71412&oldid=71392 * LegionMammal978 * (+196)
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15:23:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:I like frog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71413&oldid=71156 * LegionMammal978 * (+691)
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15:30:34 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: http://freenode.net/kb/answer/namespaces
15:32:22 <b_jonas> that naming policy is enforced only when the ops need to interfere in who owns a channel, typically in taking over unused old channel names
15:33:52 <b_jonas> so the policy is mostly just a suggestion, and many channels go against it
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17:10:34 <zzo38> I saw someone's solution to sorites paradox is that it remains a heap as long as some of the sand is on top of the other sand
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17:57:09 <orbitaldecay> Does anyone know the name for what I'm doing with combinators here? https://wiki.forder.cc/wiki/Combinators
17:58:47 <orbitaldecay> I'm basically poking around for binary operators on subsets of combinators that form quasigroups, semigroups, maybe even a group?
18:00:45 <orbitaldecay> question #4 at the bottom is basically the whole point
18:04:26 <int-e> my takeaway from this page is that I hate postfix notation for combinatory logic
18:06:37 <imode> postfix notation is deceptively simple.
18:08:00 <int-e> 1. is a cute puzzle... if you let T = (\x. x x) (\P x y. (\x. x x) P y x) then T x y ->> T y x. (Now do the abstraction elminiation and be happy.)
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18:10:11 <orbitaldecay> I'm just dipping my toe in the water with combinators. Still have a lot to learn.
18:12:28 <orbitaldecay> I think 3. is a very interesting question too. I have an intuitive feel for it, but haven't formalized it yet.
18:13:32 <int-e> 2. is standard pairing: (\x y p. p x y)
18:13:40 <int-e> I don't understand 3.
18:15:03 <int-e> 4. probably has some silly (artificial) solution that embeds both ` and a representation of the starting term
18:17:33 <orbitaldecay> 3 is stating when is <*> closed under application
18:17:43 <int-e> but what does that mean?
18:18:33 <orbitaldecay> if x, y are in <*> when is (xy) in <*> where the operation there is application, not *
18:18:55 <int-e> also what about silly things like \x y. x y
18:19:23 <int-e> (that is, a deliberately binary version of I)
18:20:23 <orbitaldecay> Let's call that I*, <I*``> is actually pretty weird. For x, y in <I*``>, x*y is always recursive
18:20:38 <orbitaldecay> so it just blows up my interpretter whenever I try to compute it
18:20:44 <int-e> I guess that's just ` really
18:21:39 <int-e> So okay, 3 may be a difficult question... but why is it interesting?
18:22:12 <orbitaldecay> Well, I'm interested in doing subturing computation in a context closer to a group
18:22:38 <orbitaldecay> 3 isn't terribly important, but it'd be nice to have
18:22:58 <orbitaldecay> that way I could generate the set <*>, then the group operation would just be regular function application
18:23:20 <orbitaldecay> since associativity is probably a no go with any useful computation
18:24:30 <int-e> associativity moves you close to string rewriting (semi-Thue systems).
18:24:51 <int-e> Which are Turing-complete but also awkward to actually use.
18:25:13 <orbitaldecay> It's been a long time since I've looked at semi-Thue systems. Lemme read the wiki real quick
18:26:03 <orbitaldecay> Ah, I see. Yeah associativity would basically give you a semi-thue system
18:27:11 <orbitaldecay> The crucial thing I want is for all x in <*> to have x^-1 in <*> where xx^(-1) = e
18:27:21 <orbitaldecay> not necessarily matching on the left and right sides
18:27:56 <orbitaldecay> either under the * operation, or under application (which I don't think is possible)
18:34:57 <int-e> I suspect this can be done but probably not in a satisfactory way; what I'd try is write a combinator that can distinguish S, K, and itself, and basically does symbolic evaluation on top of that. So... eww.
18:36:41 <orbitaldecay> Hmm, sounds unsatisfactory. I'm going to spend some time exploring subsets of combinators and see what I can come up with. Even if I don't get to the point of doing useful computation, it would be cool to find something isomorphic to some algebraic structures
18:40:05 <imode> when you work at the level of quarks and gluons, don't be surprised when you have to build atoms.
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19:07:35 <int-e> imode: but you don't have to enjoy it
19:11:40 <imode> who said anything about enjoying it. :P
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19:43:24 <rain1> have you tried the combinator birds book, to mock a mockingbird
19:44:41 <rain1> i feel like any inverse would work only a set that is not turing complete
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21:34:20 <zzo38> I am trying to figure out how to make the random pack function in TeXnicard. I have some ideas, but I thought one thing that would be needed is to be able to pair cards together so that one card requires or excludes another card or alters the probability of including that other card (or group of cards), but I am not sure what to do about that.
21:34:26 <zzo38> Do you have some ideas?
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23:46:22 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71414&oldid=71376 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+221)
00:24:04 <zzo38> How many points you earn in the BSD boggle game?
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02:25:11 <zzo38> Now I added the temperature in the status window
02:25:31 <zzo38> Now it includes: temperature, mail, system load average, memory usage, and date/time.
02:33:31 <zzo38> PostgreSQL supports ORDER BY in non-window aggregate functions, and is something I wanted to have in SQLite too, since it is useful with some aggregate functions. If ORDER BY can be used in non-window aggregate functions, then FIRST_VALUE, LAST_VALUE, and NTH_VALUE should also be usable as aggregate functions, too.
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05:19:02 <zzo38> (dup == =)?dup == =
05:19:15 <zzo38> You must put a line break in place of the question mark.
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06:06:28 <zzo38> Do you like Solar Hijri calendar?
07:09:55 <shachaf> fizzie: Does your version of curl have the double-EOF bug fix yet?
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08:09:16 <esowiki> [[Happy Fantasy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71415&oldid=71359 * Hakerh400 * (+3)
08:14:36 <esowiki> [[Gummy Bear]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71416&oldid=71327 * Hakerh400 * (+11) /* Output */
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12:14:38 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71417&oldid=71379 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+56) /* Languages */
12:22:47 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71418&oldid=71414 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+665)
12:59:02 <esowiki> [[User talk:Zzo38]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71419&oldid=69337 * YamTokTpaFa * (+434) /* I think I have proven A14!4 to be Turing-complete. */ new section
13:00:18 <fizzie> shachaf: I think it probably does, if I remember right what the bug was. At least a single EOF on stdin is enough when pasting to ix.io.
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14:32:28 <arseniiv> Zuma-themed impossible(?) puzzle: suppose you have N types of balls and an endless sequence Z → {1, ..., N} of them, such that a ball at each position is picked uniformly at random independent of all others. You can insert a ball of your choice between the 0th and 1st places in this sequence, and then if that makes a sequence of 3 or more balls of the same kind, they vanish, the sequence collapses and the same check (are there 3 or mo
14:32:29 <arseniiv> re balls of the same kind at the cut position) happens again and again if necessary. What is the mean count of vanishes? vanished balls?
14:34:51 <int-e> why is that a function from Z, not N?
14:35:13 <arseniiv> at first I thought to allow placing a ball at any position, but I think this would make the problem ill-posed: I’d suppose there would be a possibility to make any count of vanishes but obviously not an infinite one
14:35:48 <int-e> The problem with using Z being that you have to specify what happens to the indices after removal
14:37:15 <arseniiv> int-e: two one-sided subsequences after the cut should then concatenate back
14:37:56 <arseniiv> and as in this case we remember the position of the cut point, we could put zeroth index anywhere we like
14:40:17 <int-e> Ah I misunderstood...
14:40:56 <int-e> so if you have 1122 and place a ball in the middle, you get two choices... which one do you pick?
14:41:12 <arseniiv> about N instead of Z: hmm I think that wouldn’t be neat enough; in the game if you happen to remove balls from the end of the chain, and there is a cluster of ≥3 balls right near them, that cluster won’t wanish, but in this formulation it would (and if it wouldn’t, that would be a boring setting)
14:42:11 <int-e> it's okay, I though it would collapse once and then you'd get to pick another ball
14:42:24 <int-e> I didn't read properly
14:42:49 <int-e> *thought (nor type, apparently.)
14:43:16 <arseniiv> <int-e> so if you have 1122 and place a ball in the middle, you get two choices... which one do you pick? => hm well maybe then we should first consider the setting where the ball is picked randomly not by us, and again uniformly of course
14:43:41 <int-e> so basically... don't place any ball at all
14:44:03 <arseniiv> also I think I word such questions in not the most understandable way too
14:44:30 <int-e> "also I think...": I think you phrased that concern perfectly.
14:45:20 <arseniiv> maybe I should name things more often
14:45:53 <arseniiv> so I would backlink to them instead of using ambiguous anaphoric pronouns
14:46:48 <int-e> But hmm. The first collapse is special, but after that we're always faced with a random sequence that has a 1/(N-1) chance of equal balls in the middle instead of 1/N. So this should be quite feasible.
14:48:53 <arseniiv> don’t forget we need more than two, so we can’t just compare the ends
14:49:40 <int-e> Oh sure but that's not a huge deal.
14:50:10 <arseniiv> btw I have no solution to this, of course. I wanted to announce I won the main game mode in Zuma’s Revenge, but then I thought: wait, that can be made more on-topic
14:50:19 <int-e> The probability that the first collapse happens should be (1 + (N-1)/N + (N-1)^2/N^2)/N^3, and for subsequent collapses it's (1 + (N-1)/N + (N-1)^2/N^2)/((N-1)N^2) instead.
14:50:51 <arseniiv> I hoped I’d come up with something less tractable :D
14:52:11 <int-e> full notes ;-) http://paste.debian.net/1142975/
14:52:30 <int-e> Oh wait, that's for four.
14:52:58 <int-e> So the probabilities should be (1 + (N-1)/N)/N^2 and (1 + (N-1)/N)/((N-1)N) instead.
14:53:55 <int-e> `? fencepost blaming
14:53:58 <HackEso> fencepost blaming? ¯\(°_o)/¯
14:56:46 <int-e> Basically two things happen here: a) rather than looking at the colors, look at whether adjacent balls have the same color b) after a collapse, there are only N-1 possible colors for the two adjacent balls, but otherwise they are still uniformly random. So the probability of equality increases to the aforementioned 1/(N-1) instead of 1/N at that one place.
14:59:18 <int-e> (2n^2 - 3n + 1)/(n^4 - n^3 - 2n^2 + n) <-- look at this beauty (is it correct? who knows. it might be.)
15:00:16 <int-e> that's for the expected number of collapses
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15:03:39 <int-e> Funny, we cannot simply multiply that by 1 + 2/(1-1/n) to get the expected number of balls removed, because only one of the two cases captured in (1 + (N-1)/N)/N^2 can be extended to both sides.
15:03:51 <int-e> (I'm mixing capital and lower case n, sorry.)
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15:06:27 <int-e> I prefer the lower case one, honestly, reserving the upper case one for the natural numbers.
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15:11:28 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah I forgot there would be conflation in ASCII
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15:12:34 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =.
15:12:47 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
15:12:59 <arseniiv> (and ℕ renders poorly in my client, and it’s 5 keypresses to input with my AHK script, so I almost never use it)
15:13:01 <int-e> myndzi is still broken it seems
15:14:13 <lambdabot> LOWI 251450Z VRB03KT 9999 FEW060 SCT070 BKN100 21/04 Q1007 NOSIG
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15:29:19 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71422&oldid=70490 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+358) /* Packlang */
15:32:37 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71423&oldid=71422 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+192) /* Stackint */
15:33:30 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71424&oldid=71417 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Languages */
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16:51:34 <arseniiv> I just placed a couple of GEL in a looped world in The Powder Toy and watch it fall
16:55:11 <arseniiv> poor little Tron particles don’t know they could wrap around and insted they keep crashing into gel >:D
16:56:38 <int-e> arseniiv: heh I wonder whether you'd like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H23AY8Kdx00 (especially after the 1:40 mark)
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17:02:19 <Sgeo> I just saw a captcha that involved arranging puzzle pieces (on dreamviews.com). Apparently from KeyCAPTCHA
17:20:38 <imode> I see a lot of people praising Forth for its ease in implementation (almost to the level of occult worship), but I wonder if Tcl (or a similar language) would be a contender for ease of implementation.
17:20:44 <arseniiv> int-e: awhile ago, after several tries I got how to make a hard caramel succesfully, including unsticking it from the surface when it’s cold (I pour it onto baking paper) and now rarely I make some and crush it into small pieces to use instead of sugar for tea or something. I like it’s like a real glass and maybe it can be glassblowed (I hadn’t tried) and it would be cool. Hm I’ll google that, maybe someone had done that already
17:21:51 <arseniiv> imode: due to code quotes? (Though I don’t know almost a thing about Tcl)
17:22:25 <imode> arseniiv: mostly due to the fact that, at its base, it's just a list of commands that's specially formatted.
17:22:39 <pikhq> I think Forth may be _easier_ than Tcl, but a Tcl implementation is not especially difficult.
17:23:29 <pikhq> http://oldblog.antirez.com/post/picol.html Like, this is a reasonably straightforward and functional Tcl implementation in 550 lines of reasonably natural C code.
17:23:40 <arseniiv> how about a really bare-bones Scheme?
17:23:57 <imode> on the gradient of "I can hack this up in less than a day" to "This is a multi-month project", I see Tcl as sitting a bit to the left above Forth. it's slightly more complex due to quoting.
17:24:27 <pikhq> Yeah, that seems about right.
17:24:43 <pikhq> It's not literally the easiest but nor is it that difficult, as far as these things go.
17:24:43 <arseniiv> I don’t particularly like concatenative languages without quoting though. It’s hard to go without when you taste it
17:25:08 <imode> I don't mind them. honestly all I really care about is implementation simplicity.
17:25:36 <imode> you can write good abstractions and tools in just about any language, but it takes more work in some than others.
17:25:51 <imode> I can write good concatenative code without quotes.
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17:28:16 <imode> it makes me wonder if there's some middleground between Tcl and Forth, without excess quoting and tokenization rules.
17:30:20 <arseniiv> Q-BASIC^W I’ll show myself out
17:30:32 <imode> that picol interpreter, for example, is like 2x what I'd consider reasonable.
17:32:44 <imode> I wish I could turn Modal into something useful. it's deceptively simple.
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17:48:49 <b_jonas> pikhq, imode: there's a forth implementation on IOCCC (admittedly not within the size limit, but with a small external library over an interpreter), but no Tcl in IOCCC
17:51:29 <imode> b_jonas: I remember reading that when digging into Forth for the first time.
17:53:07 <imode> there has got to be other "no-parse" languages out there, right?
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18:16:03 <arseniiv> I try to win over The Powder Toy by making graphical designs out of experiments in it
18:16:19 <arseniiv> though I’ve yet to use any of them
18:18:01 <arseniiv> for example https://i.postimg.cc/G2v813Sn/traced-powdertoy.png
18:18:20 <arseniiv> but that was thoroughly edited in Inkscape
18:25:04 <arseniiv> also if someone knows Verve Painter by Taron (hope I remember names correctly), there is a rotating canvas mode which is neeeaaat. Even if you don’t know anything about drawing, it amounts to some great things
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19:47:25 <zzo38> I found this comment in some text mentioning tarot cards: "The Fool is given the number 0 in the Trumps, and as a C programmer from a long time back I love any 0-indexed array."
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19:51:21 <zzo38> While in many decks the Fool is numbered zero, that isn't it's value. I have been told before why it is numbered zero (I asked them why), they said it represents the beginning of a journey, which I suppose I can see. Although depending on the game, its value may either be the XXII of trumps, or it may have an entirely different meaning (you can play it even if you would otherwise be required to follow suit, but it always loses the tric
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19:55:45 <zzo38> I had ideas about tarot poker, where the Fool (or Excuse) counts as both 0 and XXII, similar to the ace in the ordinary poker.
20:07:29 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71428&oldid=71420 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+220)
20:09:41 <zzo38> I have thought of some ideas about tarot poker. Trumps could sometimes be treated as their own suit, and sometimes as cards of the same rank of any of the other suits (including cards that do not exist), so that you can have a "mixed flush" and "mixed straight flush", in addition to a "pure flush" and "pure straight flush". Five of a kind is also possible.
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21:45:35 <orbitaldecay> int-e: making interesting progress on that combinator stuff https://wiki.forder.cc/wiki/Combinators
21:45:49 <orbitaldecay> Switched to using infix + to denote the binary operations which has made it much easier to read
21:46:57 <orbitaldecay> In particular, https://wiki.forder.cc/wiki/Combinators#Associative_and_commutative_examples is interesting
21:50:43 <int-e> that postfix notation...
21:51:13 <int-e> (I've used Unlambda. This messes up my brain.)
21:51:56 <orbitaldecay> Yeah, the interpreter I wrote uses postfix, which is why I keep switching
21:52:38 <orbitaldecay> But I've started using infix for the most part in the wiki with + representing my custom binary functions and * representing application
21:52:52 <int-e> But this is moving the goalpost from {S,K} and any kind of TC-ness.
21:53:21 <orbitaldecay> Just trying to get a feel for what associative and commutative <C,+> look like
21:53:30 <orbitaldecay> with the ultimate objective of going back to TC-ness
21:53:32 <int-e> You can /represent/ a lot of algebraic structures, obviously. And yes, Booleans are perhaps the most natural.
21:54:20 <orbitaldecay> Yeah, I was thinking about that today that with a little work it would be easy enough to construct a <C,+> of the natural numbers using church numerals, but it wouldn't bring me any closer to what I'm going for
21:55:12 <int-e> Also, I'm already fairly familiar with programming lambda calculus (and, by extension, Combinatory Logic) so you should not feel bad if none of this surprises me.
21:55:37 <orbitaldecay> Also remembered that if <C,+> is generated by n elements and contains m elements then the associativity test is nm^2 rather than m^3
21:55:50 <orbitaldecay> haha, thanks. I've only had a few cursory passes with it. learning as I gol
21:56:26 <orbitaldecay> Which makes the associativity test m^2 if |C| = 1
21:59:02 <orbitaldecay> The section on <`T``> was a little surprising to me. It wasn't immediately obvious to me that a non-trivial finite set could be generated using only I as the basis.
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22:36:45 <zzo38> How common is custom (and mostly meaningless) headers for commentary in Usenet?
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22:43:47 <zzo38> I have seen it more than once.
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22:53:16 <esowiki> [[Cortex language 3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71429 * Cortex * (+752) Created page with "[[Cortex language 3]] is a general term for an esolang, named after and defined by [[User:Cortex|]] operationally defined as "'''''any languge where <code>;'</code> creates a..."
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23:17:31 <zzo38> What is the format of the .mcm file produced by Mednafen? It seems to be a screenshot file (since I told it to create a screenshot, and that is the file that resulted), but I don't know what format it is (ImageMagick does not know how to open it).
23:20:11 <zzo38> I found something that says that it is a movie, and that it starts with "MDFNMOVI", although that does not seem to be the case.
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23:26:09 <int-e> "movie"; sounds like it records game inputs, one per frame
23:26:41 <int-e> . o O ( Details are to be found in the source code. )
23:28:31 <zzo38> I didn't tell it to record a movie (and the documentation and quick help says F9 is for screen snapshots, not movie), and it doesn't have the format that it says is the format for movies, anyways, although the filename is the same as what the documentation about the movie says it is.
23:33:53 <int-e> I'm not sure what you expected from us.
23:34:34 <int-e> (But this is true for almost all your questions, so maybe I shouldn't complain.)
23:36:12 <zzo38> Maybe it is, but it doesn't have the format that I read about, nor was I trying to record a movie.
23:36:25 <imode> http://tasvideos.org/EmulatorResources/Mednafen/MCM.html
23:36:40 <imode> sounds like a pebcak problem.
23:36:54 <int-e> imode: I found that, hence the description above.
23:36:55 <zzo38> I read that, and, the file doesn't start with "MDFNMOVI", so it isn't a file of the format documented there.
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23:37:07 <int-e> zzo38: Have you tried "file" on the thing
23:37:26 <int-e> zzo38: Also you actually have the file, we don't. I don't know how many of us are using Mednafen; I don't.
23:37:52 <zzo38> O, "file" says it is a gzip file; I can try that.
23:39:03 <zzo38> Yes, it does seem to be; it still doesn't start with "MDFNMOVI" though; it starts with "MEDNAFENSVESTATE".
23:41:12 <zzo38> OK, trying rgbff on it produces a screen-shot, although not the one I expected.
23:41:17 <int-e> So... it's misnamed and ancient?
23:41:59 <int-e> (Apparently that magic string was changed in 2012)
23:42:52 <int-e> I'm not sure why I'm looking into this... I guess I just like hitting search engines with search terms.
23:43:34 <zzo38> I get a picture which is a screenshot from the correct game, although the state is not the state that I commanded it to make a screenshot of.
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00:00:50 <Train> I've finished my esolang at last.
00:02:36 <Train> Does anybody want to hear more? I also need to prove it's turing complete.
00:02:44 <Train> I'm almost certain that it is.
00:04:22 <zzo38> OK. What esolang is that?
00:05:05 <Train> It uses a 2d program with two pointers.
00:06:27 <Train> One pointer moves in cardinal directions if the other pointer is passing over a cardinal trigger.
00:07:01 <zzo38> OK. If you write the document, then we can read it.
00:07:27 <Train> Should i just post a couple of programs?
00:07:52 <zzo38> I think you should post documentation, although you can post programs too if you want to do.
00:08:07 <Train> Documentation is not finished yet.
00:08:15 <Train> I have an interpreter.
00:08:34 <Train> So, here is Hello, world!
00:08:45 <Train> WcWcWcWcWcWcWcWcWcWcWcWcWcO!dlrow ,olleH
00:09:14 <Train> Here is a CAT program:
00:09:20 <Train> note that it is 8 bytes
00:09:32 <Train> SdaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanEcO
00:09:42 <Train> Sorry thats the truth machine
00:09:45 <zzo38> Eight bytes? How is that?
00:10:02 <Train> Top row is SdcN, bottom row is 4 spaces.
00:10:16 <Train> And here is the behemoth of all of my programs.
00:10:39 <Train> The ungolfed addition program, taking inputs that sum to any number less than or equal to 9
00:10:46 <Train> ---SdaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaV
00:11:18 <Train> Well, it is golfed a little.
00:12:58 <Train> What do you think?
00:14:28 <zzo38> Well, I wouldn't know much yet, until I read the documentation, I think.
00:14:48 <Train> Alright. Time to make some documentation.
00:15:13 <Train> Hey, do you want to go to hackchat? It's easier to chat on than this.
00:15:43 <zzo38> I do not even know what is that, but I think this IRC is easily enough to chat on.
00:16:02 <Train> hackchat is a minimalist chat application.
00:17:45 <zzo38> I won't download any program, but if I can telnet to it, then I can try, I suppose. However, I think this IRC is better; it is where the discussions are for this and there is logs, which is also very useful, I think.
00:18:16 <Train> and hackchat supports full latex and code highlighting
00:18:24 <Train> I'll quickly set up a chatroom.
00:18:50 <Train> https://hack.chat/?esoteric
00:19:38 <zzo38> I don't want to use a web site for the chat. If it is a telnet then I can try
00:19:50 <Train> Why not a website?
00:20:29 <zzo38> For one thing, is not compatible with my computer, also WWW is rather hostile
00:20:43 <zzo38> (And, I am not sure that I believe you about "full latex highlighting")
00:20:50 <Train> Are you running some weird linux thing?
00:20:59 <Train> Or homebrew something
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00:22:29 <zzo38> I am using Linux. Although, that isn't really relevant; IRC or telnet is better for interactive chat anyways, and the protocols are simpler you can use them without other software
00:23:17 <Train> So you don't have a browser.
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00:23:28 <zzo38> I do, but not one compatible with hackchat
00:23:51 <zzo38> For playing GURPS on the computer, since I am the only player at this time, I just use a direct connection, together with ts and tee for logging. It is simple and works well.
00:24:32 <zzo38> (I would also avoid using the web browser as much as possible; it is the worst program on the computer. The other programs are better designed.)
00:25:44 <zzo38> (Although I didn't like the other IRC clients either, so I wrote my own; it isn't so difficult to write, really.)
00:28:39 <zzo38> Some people say IRC doesn't do that, NNTP doesn't do that, etc but that is not quite correct, because the protocol doesn't have to do those things; some things are independent from the protocol, and the user can use the client software they like, the server operator can set up and configure the server software they like.
00:29:15 <int-e> . o O ( Just make an electron app *runs* )
00:29:16 <zzo38> (I wrote my own NNTP client software too, actually. And my own NNTP server software.)
00:29:33 <int-e> (I'm really unhappy about Electron.)
00:30:38 <zzo38> I don't like Electron either. Although, if you document the protocol and then users can use whichever app they prefer, Electron or otherwise.
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00:35:31 <Train> I am writing out the documentation.
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00:52:24 <shachaf> int-e: I am boycotting electrons. Positive charge only for me.
00:53:43 <shachaf> Unfortunately I have two Electron programs on my computer, though one of them is usually not running.
00:54:21 <zzo38> Can you rewrite the program to not use Electron?
00:54:59 <int-e> Yes, you can rewrite programs.
00:55:02 <int-e> It's a lot of effort.
00:55:37 <shachaf> I can but it's a lot of effort.
00:55:51 <shachaf> One program is signal-desktop, which some people like to use to communicate.
00:56:12 <shachaf> I could reimplement the protocol and I'm sure I'd end up with something better because this program is very buggy.
00:56:34 <int-e> Hrm, why does that need the DOM part?
00:56:53 <int-e> (nodejs is perhaps only half as terrible as Electron)
00:57:07 <shachaf> It's a chat program with a user interface.
00:57:25 <shachaf> Oh, you mean, why can't I just use the existing implementation?
00:57:32 <int-e> Sorry, brain fart. I should've been able to recognize "signal".
00:57:49 <shachaf> I guess I could do that, though it would probably force me to use JavaScript and other nonsense.
00:58:22 <int-e> Nah,I thought about generic signals and didn't see why it needed a GUI.
00:58:43 <zzo38> Node.js isn't that bad; it is a way to write programs in JavaScript. But, there are other programming languages too; they shouldn't need JavaScript for everything, because there is many other one for different purposes; some others are better for the other purpose.
00:59:29 <zzo38> Also, you could use WebAssembly too if you want to; if you have a recently enough version of Node.js then you can also write in WebAssembly. But, you shouldn't need Node.js at all if you prefer to write in C instead, I think.
01:01:32 <int-e> . o O ( Customer: "I want to cook a pot of tea." Programmer: "Okay, let's start with this food factory over there..." )
01:02:27 <lambdabot> KOAK 260053Z 28013KT 10SM SCT200 BKN250 19/12 A3002 RMK AO2 SLP166 T01940117
01:03:08 <shachaf> I was outside today! What an experience, being outdoors. The weather was nice.
01:03:51 <zzo38> Yes, it is nice here too, and I was also outside today. But with this virus, I am not leaving the property where I live, although I will go in the back yard sometimes.
01:05:09 <shachaf> I do not have a back yard.
01:05:58 <orbitaldecay> Does anyone know what character is used on a traditional forth prompt?
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01:07:09 <imode> pop open gforth if you want an example.
01:07:35 <orbitaldecay> yeah, I was going to do that. Just wondering if anyone could answer it faster than it takes me to type apt install gforth && gforth
01:09:11 <zzo38> The traditional Forth prompt is "ok"
01:09:39 <int-e> ed has the best prompt
01:12:11 <int-e> how did this happen: bash: ed: command not found
01:12:45 <int-e> I guess I'm not editing files much these days ;)
01:15:50 <orbitaldecay> Looking for feedback on https://code.forder.cc/esolang/skiforth before I add it to the wiki.
01:18:40 <int-e> Without looking... just put it on the wiki? It can be edited and improved there after all...
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01:39:04 <Train> With documentation.
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01:57:03 <zzo38> I was able to get a screen shot from the .mcm file using the command: zcat | tail -c+33 | rgbff 160 144 But I still am not sure why it is the wrong screenshot. (Trying different offsets doesn't seem to help; I tried that)
01:58:29 <zzo38> I wrote that here so that we can remember its working.
02:26:32 <int-e> . o O ( /join ##zzo38-notes )
02:31:24 <zzo38> (Maybe you can tell what system the game is for by the command I used.)
02:49:46 <shachaf> int-e: Are you into Gröbner bases?
02:52:17 <HackEso> 1306) <shachaf> int-e: Do you like this? <int-e> It depends on the context. In the context of "Do you like _?", I hate it.
02:52:50 <shachaf> OK, but you seem like the sort of person who might be into them.
02:53:10 <shachaf> I guess I should have just looked at the logs before asking.
02:53:42 <int-e> I have a reasonable idea what they are, and none about the fine points (like choosing good monomial orders).
02:56:43 <int-e> I also shouldn't be awake right now.
02:57:22 <shachaf> OK, I read your explanation from 2014 and it makes sense.
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03:43:18 <zzo38> Can you make Fermat's Last Theorem in Magic: the Gathering?
03:46:36 <zzo38> Also, if your opponent concedes a subgame, are you allowed to concede the subgame at the same time (to force the subgame to end in a draw)?
03:56:13 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71430&oldid=71339 * Cortex * (+66)
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03:58:49 <Train> Here is the documentation:
03:58:58 <Train> Documentation for TrainCode
03:58:59 <Train> instruction pointer:
03:59:02 <Train> If it is any of ^V<>, change the direction of motion to the direction of the arrow.
03:59:04 <Train> direction of motion to right. Otherwise, set the direction of motion to down.
03:59:06 <Train> required direction.
04:00:55 <zzo38> Why don't you post it on esolang wiki instead? (I can interact with MediaWiki sites on my computer just fine, although you can't write on there if you do not have an account.)
04:01:14 <Train> I haven't made an account yet.
04:01:35 <Train> I'm asking you guys for feedback, and also because I need help proving the turing completeness.
04:01:38 <zzo38> You could also just post a text file, e.g. with sprunge, which is a simple paste bin
04:02:54 <zzo38> The advantage of sprunge is that you can use it either with a web browser or with curl, both to send and to receive, and no account is needed.
04:03:13 <Train> wait it supports curl
04:03:55 <Train> http://sprunge.us/7UDn3W
04:04:25 <Train> How on earth did I not know this?
04:08:41 <zzo38> OK, it look like good to me. It won't be Turing complete unless it has unlimited memory, either by an unlimited number of cells or being able to store numbers of an unlimited range in each cell.
04:08:56 <Train> I've worked that much out.
04:09:05 <zzo38> (Even if it does, that isn't the only criteria for Turing completeness though)
04:09:49 <Train> 't actually Turing complete at first, but I added "n" to make it Turing complete.
04:12:48 <Train> Also, do you know how I could golf my addition program?
04:14:11 <Train> here it is: http://sprunge.us/CIxpGR
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04:14:13 <zzo38> From your examples, it look like the instruction grid is the same as the data grid, so maybe it is possible to be Turing complete by self-modifying code without the "n" command, although I am unsure of such a thing. I have not proven it either way.
04:14:42 <Train> Yes, you are correct. However, I don't think that it is possible for it to be Turing complete without "n".
04:15:23 <zzo38> If cells store numbers in an unlimited range, then possibly you can try to prove Turing completeness by a Minsky machine.
04:15:28 <Train> Here's my reasoning: it has to carry out a different set of instructions based on input, and it can't conditionally branch without it, due to the fact that it doesn't have the mathematical manpower.
04:15:55 <Train> I might change it to unlimited range instead of 1 byte.
04:16:27 <zzo38> With a limited grid and limited range of values in each cell, it won't be Turing complete.
04:16:47 <Train> But in a theoretical infinite case, it is Turing complete.
04:16:53 <Train> Just like brainfuck isn
04:17:01 <Train> 't turing complete for a finite number of cells.
04:17:02 <zzo38> So you should change it to unlimited range, or else make the grid not wrap around (at least vertically, even if it does wrap around horizontally).
04:17:19 <Train> How would I go about I/O if I make it unlimited?
04:17:45 <zzo38> Input can still read a number in the range 0 to 255, and output can use the low 8-bits of the number.
04:18:03 <Train> Like the least significant 8 bits, or the most significant?
04:18:31 <zzo38> The least significant 8 bits.
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04:18:43 <Train> Okay, so basically VALUE MOD 256
04:19:01 <Train> Okie, modifiying the interpreter now.
04:19:21 <Train> It's great to talk to experts.
04:20:26 <Train> What about negative underflow?
04:21:51 <zzo38> Again, you can just use the low 8-bits, that is still defined for negative numbers, although the modulo operator in the programming language in use might not work with it; you can use "VALUE AND 255" if the programming language you use supports bitwise AND operator, then that would work.
04:22:27 <Train> So if I have -1, it wraps around to 255?
04:23:34 <zzo38> Yes, it is treated as 255 for purpose of output (although still store it as -1, if you want Turing completeness by unlimited range of values in cells).
04:24:36 <Train> Why does it need to be able to be negative for Turing completeness?
04:26:15 <zzo38> It doesn't, although it doesn't make sense for -1 to wrap around to 255 but for 256 to stay 256.
04:26:46 <Train> So, what should I do?
04:27:39 <zzo38> An alternative is to keep cell values bounded (in which case wrapping around from 0 to 255 and vice versa probably makes sense) and to instead make the grid size unbounded vertically (or horizontally), instead of wrapping; that would also make it Turing-complete.
04:28:02 <Train> I thought about that, but I just don't like the idea.
04:28:49 <esowiki> [[L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71431&oldid=70824 * Voltage2007 * (-117)
04:31:13 <zzo38> What programming language is the implementation written in?
04:33:19 <zzo38> I don't know the capabilities of unlimited range numbers in Python, but hopefully you know what it is.
04:36:08 <Train> nvm figured it out.
04:42:39 <Train> So, how should I set up underflow?
04:42:53 <Train> Should I just say "it can't go under 0"
04:43:11 <zzo38> That is another possibility, yes.
04:43:29 <Train> It is tidy I guess.
04:43:48 <Train> But it's a bit cheaty.
04:44:21 <Train> I've got I/O and addition worked out now.
04:47:01 <Train> What is your expert opinion?
04:48:32 <zzo38> I am not really an expert, even though I know some things about it, I do not know everything.
04:49:04 <Train> You're pretty good at this ngl.
04:59:13 <Train> So, what do you think? You seem very experienced.
05:00:00 <zzo38> For one thing, I am not sure what exactly you are asking about. I did read the document you posted, and it look like OK to me, and these other stuff you now wrote also look like OK to me.
05:00:33 <zzo38> So if that is what you mean, then my answer is, I think it is good.
05:01:15 <Train> Okay, I'll rephrase. So, how should I set up negative numbers? Should I say "no, you can't have negative numbers" or should I just say "negative numbers allowed", or should i overflow it?
05:03:46 <zzo38> I think the mathematically sensible thing to do is to allow them, and use the low 8-bits for output, just like with positive numbers (it is well-defined how to do this).
05:04:07 <Train> Okay, so just reuse modulo again.
05:05:20 <zzo38> Yes, although in many programming languages, the result of modulo has the sign of the left operand, rather than the right, but if you have bitwise operators, use AND 255 instead of MOD 256 and then you avoid that problem (and the result is the same for positive numbers).
05:14:08 <Train> What on earth do you mean? I get the bit about the sign of the left operand rather than the right, but what do you mean by a bitwise operator?
05:15:02 <Train> Okay, I think I know what you mean.
05:15:10 <Train> I'll test it in Python now.
05:15:38 <Train> Okay, it works fine.
05:15:57 <Train> % is python's modulo operator, and -1%256 is 255
05:16:11 <Train> Uploaded to compiler.
05:18:55 <zzo38> OK, then in Python the modulo operator does use the right sign, unlike C and dc, so it works.
05:24:46 <zzo38> This can be tested: If you write "d" and then "a" 256 times (or "b" 256 times) and then "c" and then "n", it should output the same byte as the input but always go down instead of right, even if you input a space. Then it will use unbounded cell values correctly in that case.
05:25:32 <Train> alright, testing it now
05:27:52 <Train> The interpreter is free of bugs.
05:28:17 <Train> I also found a pseudo-quine:
05:28:37 <zzo38> Ah, yes, that will work.
05:28:58 <zzo38> (Although it won't terminate)
05:29:30 <Train> Are there any quines that terminate? (Other than the trivial case of the null program)
05:31:20 <zzo38> I will try to think of it.
05:31:58 <Train> I haven't been able to find any terminating quines, but I know that there are several different classes of non-terminating types.
05:32:09 <Train> Each class has an infinity of solutions.
05:36:11 <Train> Also, did you find a way to golf the addition program? 357 bytes is a lot!
05:40:40 <zzo38> No, although right now I will think of the quine, and then perhaps tomorrow I might look at the addition program again
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07:32:44 <zzo38> I think now I figured out how to make a quine with TrainCode.
07:33:03 <zzo38> (My program is ten bytes long)
08:04:59 <esowiki> [[L]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71432&oldid=71431 * Hakerh400 * (+8) Two adjacent single quote characters must be escaped in order to be visible in the rendered HTML of the page
08:06:20 <esowiki> [[L]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71433&oldid=71432 * Hakerh400 * (+8) ditto
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09:14:30 <esowiki> [[Stopwatch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71434&oldid=70876 * GDavid * (+3) Step -> split
09:16:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Stopwatch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71435&oldid=71406 * GDavid * (+134)
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14:26:05 <fungot> kspalaiologos: mind is fuzzed right now here we have both
14:26:28 <esowiki> [[Skiforth]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71436 * Orby * (+1844) Creating Skiforth page
14:28:23 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71437&oldid=71319 * Orby * (+49)
14:30:02 <esowiki> [[Skiforth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71438&oldid=71436 * Orby * (-1) /* Examples */ Fixing small typo
14:48:34 <arseniiv> is there an interesting way to do diffusion-limited aggregation in The Powder Toy? I know a simple one: spam fog when ambient heat is off, then place a nucleus somewhere or just wait. But that makes pretty boring images
14:49:06 <arseniiv> uh I probably should join #powder or something :D
15:09:59 <tromp> ine-e: would you like to add a variation of BB_lambda to OEIS?
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15:33:44 <int-e> tromp: surprisingly, that did not highlight me ;)
15:34:52 <int-e> tromp: Somewhat tempting, but I haven't found motivation for basically anything this week. So for now, no.
15:35:28 <int-e> (even though I do have an OEIS account)
15:35:34 <tromp> would be a good way dto showcase your KO complexity
15:36:08 <int-e> Sure, but it can wait.
15:37:38 <tromp> PS: i completed the 36 TODOs in BB.txt
15:38:15 <tromp> still waiting for latest draft to be published
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16:11:43 <zzo38> That is the quine for the TrainCode that I figured out earlier
16:12:10 <zzo38> (Although I have not actually tried to execute this program on the computer, so it is untested)
16:18:35 <esowiki> [[Post Dominos]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71439&oldid=65386 * Orby * (+4) FIxing broken link
16:23:33 <esowiki> [[Semordnilap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71440&oldid=65381 * Orby * (+4) Fixing more broken links
16:30:47 <zzo38> (The comma and P have no meaning.)
16:59:02 <imode> inetd/xinetd seems to have been forgotten by a lot of mainstream developers. putting your crap in the cloud should be as simple as throwing a binary up there along with a service interlayer that hooks the sockets up for you.
16:59:36 <imode> we're back to CGI with Lambda, why not general TCP/UDP serves.
17:02:55 <zzo38> Although, that is mainly because I implemented my own NNTP server and Gopher server and QOTD server.
17:03:24 <imode> right. if you wanted to handle web requests, use CGI.
17:04:16 <zzo38> Yes, CGI is useful for handing web requests, and xinetd is useful for handling such things as NNTP and so on.
17:04:59 <imode> I currently work for Amazon and I'm kind of shocked at the kinds of architecture people are promoting internally. it is _literally_ like CGI apps of the early 2000's.
17:05:09 <imode> just using "modern infrastructure".
17:09:12 <zzo38> Do you like this quine program?
17:29:20 <int-e> imode: so... simplicity by spawning a new process on every request?
17:30:03 <int-e> imode: If so, will they reinvent fastcgi next to save the fork/exec overhead? :)
17:30:11 <int-e> Or maybe preforking, preforking is cool too.
17:30:13 <imode> hahahaha, pretty much already have.
17:30:26 <imode> it's kind of disturbing. everything old is new again, but with accounting hooks attached.
17:30:43 <int-e> What do they call it though...
17:31:00 <int-e> hmm. single shot server
17:31:09 <int-e> something like that, maybe a bit cooler.
17:31:46 <imode> lambda is essentially fastcgi in that it can pass stuff between requests.
17:34:24 <imode> eventually I expect someone to recommend me the bchs stack but un-un-unironically.
17:34:34 <int-e> . o O ( Achievement of the day: I made the prompt of my Raspberry logins raspberry-colored. )
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19:10:03 <myname> i started writing a terminal ide for funciton. i am planing on a debugger, too. any non-obvious feature suggestions?
19:19:54 <arseniiv_> myname: I get it copy-pasting is obvious? Maybe some input/output/wire rearrangements?
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19:20:24 <myname> actually, i didn't consider copy-pasting yet :D
19:20:48 <myname> what do you mean by rearrangement?
19:20:55 <myname> https://imgur.com/a/7rZNuzF
19:24:18 <arseniiv> <myname> what do you mean by rearrangement? => a basic feature here would be simply moving (groups of) blocks to anywhere user wishes, with automatical rerouting of wires. I think there can be more to it, too, but I need to re-read Funciton page
19:25:07 <myname> arseniiv: i did consider that. like, removing wires where you are moving a block to and automatically extending at the other end
19:25:24 <myname> i am not sure how to feel about crossing wires yet, though
19:26:06 <arseniiv> hm, also how about find/replace? Allow replacing a, say, single block with a several blocks, if inputs and outputs are somehow made into correspondence
19:26:40 <myname> that would be tough ui-wise
19:28:32 <arseniiv> though hm I think the natural thing would be to move in the opposite direction: refactoring out functions from block groups. That would still require mapping inputs/outputs but maybe this case would be somehow easier
19:31:04 <arseniiv> myname: or how about inputting not just single blocks, but also frequently used block groups? Though are there any quickly identifiable ones…
19:31:41 <arseniiv> now my imagination is quite bounded, my suggestions are all variations on the same theme I think :D
19:37:09 <arseniiv> now I remember the nop function is needed to make crossings
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19:46:30 <arseniiv> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Funciton/Brainfuckiton ← I like a little ladder in there (in the giant BF◊ function)
19:48:08 <arseniiv> myname: oh! maybe there could be a simple compactification feature utilizing these ladders
19:49:10 <arseniiv> if no secret, what language are you going to use?
19:50:01 <myname> i am using js, because i really like blessed-js
19:54:39 <myname> the fluffiest tui library i have ever seen
19:58:36 <arseniiv> huh, I didn’t expect that from js
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19:59:28 <myname> but if you are into tuis, give it a shot
20:03:54 <myname> https://github.com/embarklabs/neo-blessed
20:21:45 <zzo38> I have used blessed too (although not much)
20:22:06 <myname> what did you do with it
20:34:46 <zzo38> I tried to make a configuration TUI for mahjong rules, although since then I made up an entirely different thing which uses a plain text file and is far more flexible with the rules it is possible to define.
20:41:16 <zzo38> (I might also have other uses for blessed in future, although not right now; I am unsure.)
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22:04:13 <zzo38> Train: Hello, I figured out the quine. It is: c,E,c,a,EP
22:04:52 <zzo38> Yes, P at the end.
22:05:09 <Train> why P? is it because of its value?
22:05:22 <zzo38> Yes; it is one more than O.
22:06:17 <Train> cEccaEFFGGHHIIJJKKLLMMNNO
22:07:18 <zzo38> O, it doesn't works.
22:07:42 <Train> i'll give you the instruction log
22:08:24 <zzo38> (Possibly something I did not understand about it, or possibly just I made a mistake)
22:08:51 <Train> EcaEPcDcaEPcDbbEPcDbcFPcDbcGPcDbcHPcDbcIPcDbcJPcDbcKPcDbcLPcDbcMPcDbcNPcDbcO
22:08:57 <Train> That's the debug log.
22:11:31 <Train> I don't think there are any single-line quines.
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22:18:35 <zzo38> I do not understand the debug log. What does it mean?
22:19:01 <Train> It's a list of the commands that the program cycled through.
22:19:38 <zzo38> Why doesn't it include the initial "c" and the commas?
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22:20:30 <Train> Oh i didn't realise it needed commas
22:20:35 <Train> c,E,c,a,EP outputs c,E,c,a,EP
22:20:40 <Train> can you explain how you got it?
22:20:44 <zzo38> O, so it does work.
22:20:54 <Train> How did you obtain the quine?
22:22:20 <zzo38> Well, I thought of a few different ideas, and then I thought it would have to avoid modifying some commands, so I put interleaved commands that are meaningless. But, finally it will have to terminate, so at the end I put P instead of a comma, so that it changes to O and then it will stop.
22:22:50 <Train> Thats really smart.
22:22:58 <Train> And you say you don't have much experience in this?
22:23:41 <zzo38> Well, I have more experience in this than people who do not have experience in this.
22:23:55 <zzo38> But these kind of things isn't everything I do in my life.
22:24:10 <Train> I have quite a bit of experience, but this is my first fully finished esolang which is a proper turing tarpit.
22:29:10 <Train> I'm trying to make a brainfuck interpreter in it right now.
22:29:22 <Train> That will properly prove it's turing complete.
22:30:37 <Train> Do you think that is easily possible?
22:31:00 <zzo38> Yes, that will, although a way to convert a Minsky machine to TrainCode would also prove it Turing complete.
22:31:57 <zzo38> (And that also seems easier to me, although I don't actually know because I haven't actually tried, so I just guess.)
22:32:10 <Train> I don't really understand what a Minsky machine is.
22:32:35 <Train> I understand the whole "there are x unbounded registers with two operations"
22:32:47 <Train> but i don't understand the alternate state transition
22:33:55 <zzo38> Well, if one register is zero, then it won't decrement and instead will make an alternate state transition. In TrainCode, you would use 32 instead of 0, and you would write "na" (with the "a" to the right of the "n") to produce the failing decrement, and do something else instead in that case.
22:34:42 <Train> does it have to be anything specific, or can it just be literally anything
22:35:11 <zzo38> I do not understand your question.
22:35:28 <Train> in the case of the failing decrement, what do I do?
22:36:08 <zzo38> A successful or failed decrement will jump to a different part of the code, causing different code to be executed. (This is what your "n" command does.)
22:44:43 <Train> I'll use 2 registers. Does that make it Turing complete?
22:46:12 <zzo38> Two registers is sufficient for Turing completeness.
22:46:29 <Train> Sweet. I'll use the cells at 0,1 and 1,1 for the registers.
22:47:00 <Train> I'll also need some way to store the code, or I could just directly output it.
22:47:49 <zzo38> I suggested using an external program which is capable of converting any Minsky machine (of two registers) into TrainCode; if it can do that, that is sufficient to prove Turing completeness.
22:48:39 <Train> Okay... couldn't I just have an I/O for the code.
22:49:02 <zzo38> (The converter can be written in whatever programming language you want)
22:49:32 <zzo38> You could just have an I/O for the code, although it is probably easier to convert it with a separate program.
22:50:11 <Train> Because stacked "n" commands allow for really easy elifs, I reckon I could do that.
22:51:31 <zzo38> Yes, it does do that.
22:51:47 <Train> So what are the operations?
22:51:54 <Train> I think I need four operations...?
22:52:11 <Train> Add to R1, subtract to R1 and the same for R2
22:52:34 <zzo38> Yes, and flow control based on whether the decrement is successful or failed.
22:52:40 <Train> And if the subtraction operation fails, it jumps forward a certain amount?
22:52:47 <Train> Is that what you mean?
22:53:18 <zzo38> The program tells it where to jump to.
22:55:04 <Train> How does the program tell it where to jump to?
22:55:18 <zzo38> I am not sure how else to explain right now
22:55:57 <Train> Can you explain it really simply, step by step, because I am reasonably new to esolanging.
22:57:56 <zzo38> Well, an alternative is The Amnesiac From Minsk; level 1 and 2 are Turing complete.
22:59:19 <zzo38> (Although I think Amnesiac From Minsk requires more than two registers to be Turing complete)
23:00:51 <Train> So, what does a failed decrement do?
23:00:58 <Train> Say we have both registers at 1
23:01:19 <Train> and we add one to the second one and decrement the second one twice.
23:01:23 <Train> what does that do?
23:01:36 <zzo38> Like a GOTO command, each decrement command in the program specifies what part of the program to execute next.
23:02:08 <Train> So, how does a decrement say where to GOTO?
23:02:58 <zzo38> By specifying the address of the next instruction.
23:03:15 <Train> Okay... but it is just a decrement.
23:06:42 <Train> how does it specify an address?
23:07:12 <zzo38> Well, it is a parameter for the command.
23:07:12 <Train> The esolang wiki isn't very helpful either, and neither is wikipedia.
23:09:38 <Train> so the decrement command actually takes a parameter
23:09:59 <Train> so it's not just a decrement by 1
23:10:52 <zzo38> It is just a decrement by 1; the parameter is where to jump to.
23:11:23 <Train> Okay, so a decrement command takes 1 parameter, and if that decrement command cannot be executed, it jumps to that address in the program memory.
23:12:56 <Train> Is there a limit on how small the program can be to ensure turing completeness, or does it tend towards infinity?
23:13:26 <Train> In theory, TrainCode should be able to implement a minsky machine..
23:14:43 <Train> Because it has flow control with "n"
23:20:08 <Train> First, I'll implement a Minsky engine which I can then use a python program to produce traincode that can be fed into the Minsky Engine.
23:21:14 <Train> This will be hard.
23:21:34 <Train> Just going to brainstorm on here, check me if I'm wrong.
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23:22:10 <Train> So, Line 2 of the code will be the Minsky instructions.
23:22:11 -!- orby has changed nick to orbitaldecay.
23:23:30 <int-e> mmm where is TrainCode?
23:24:28 <Train> But here's traincode: http://sprunge.us/7UDn3W
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23:27:07 <Train> zzo38, I think TrainCode does already have an infinite memory because of the size of the program.
23:27:20 <Train> Additionally, I need a better name for it.
23:27:29 <Train> TrainCode is not a very good name.
23:27:44 <int-e> look at this beautiful prompt color https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/fruit.png :P
23:28:16 <Train> The font hurts, but it is a nice colour.
23:28:39 <int-e> it's a perfect raspberry color
23:28:51 <int-e> The font... well I've been using that same font for more than 20 years.
23:29:02 <int-e> It's hard to change now.
23:29:06 <zzo38> Why is the font hurts? It is the same font I use on my computer (but with different colours)
23:29:13 <Train> I prefer gridded fonts personally.
23:29:21 <int-e> (obviously it's not scaled up like that)
23:29:24 <Train> Or MC enchantment table.
23:29:29 <zzo38> And I prefer it than the other font
23:29:39 <Train> Anyway, back to esolanging.
23:30:07 <int-e> Train: basically as long as my eyes can take it I'll probably stick to this font... I know its quirks (e.g. how 0 and O or l and | look...)
23:30:09 <zzo38> I don't know what is the better name for it.
23:30:23 <int-e> Train: But that doesn't mean anybody else should feel good about it :)
23:30:25 <Train> I'm thinking maybe something latin might sound nice.
23:31:26 <Train> Veritas sounds nice.
23:31:30 <Train> It's latin for Truth.
23:31:46 <zzo38> But, the size of the program doesn't cause it to have infinite memory; it only allows the programmer to set the memory to an arbitrarily large finite size, which isn't quite the same thing. Allowing the values of cells to be of unlimited range does give it infinite memory though.
23:32:10 <Train> But in the special case of the minsky machine, there is no difference.
23:35:58 <int-e> Train: I just saw \ and /. And I'm reminded of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Trajedy even though that's very different.
23:36:58 <Train> Huh. I'd never even heard of Trajedy.
23:37:39 <int-e> I imagine that's probably true of most of the languages on the wiki :)
23:37:50 <Train> Lol, there's like 5000.
23:38:27 <int-e> Trajedy actually sparked quite a bit of discussion here when it was new (involving myself as well) though so it stood out.
23:38:43 <Train> It's an interesting concept.
23:39:08 <Train> I'm surprised it's turing complete.
23:39:43 <Train> But I can see how it is.
23:40:13 <Train> Anyway, I call dibs on language name Veritas, and because this chat is logged, people can see this.
23:43:07 * int-e wonders how terrible Traincode would become without the n.
23:44:04 <Train> n is the only thing that can make flow control
23:44:14 <int-e> (you'd have to do *everything* with self-modifying code)
23:44:34 <int-e> whioch isn't unheard of in esolangs
23:44:35 <Train> but I've already established that's impossible to do *everything*
23:45:09 <Train> most problems are possible, but none are trivial without n, and there are some that are impossible
23:45:11 <int-e> well, the wraparound kills the idea of infinite state, unless you start with an infinite grid
23:45:25 <Train> infinite number of states in each cell
23:45:26 <int-e> which, conceptually, I believe you could do
23:45:39 <Train> I could easily make an infinite grid.
23:45:45 <Train> But I chose a finite grid.
23:46:32 <int-e> The thing is, you could do that without radically changing the nature of the language. People have done similar things with Brainfuck.
23:46:54 <Train> Yeah, I made a brainfuck interpreter that had that.
23:47:20 <int-e> (The original Brainfuck had 30k byte-sized cells... few clones adhered to that)
23:48:43 <Train> In my interpreter I kept the byte-sized cells, but made it infinite.
23:48:55 <Train> Was the original brainfuck turing-complete?
23:49:27 <int-e> Anyway, Traincode is a kind of minimal Befunge which judging by https://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge#Related_languages is a surprisingly small niche.
23:49:41 <int-e> No, the original Brainfuck suffered from the limitation of having finite state.
23:50:10 <Train> So a turing-complete system must have infinite states?
23:50:31 <int-e> Yes. TC-ness is a bit overrated.
23:51:16 <Train> Yes, especially because esolangs are ESOTERIC
23:51:33 <Train> Almost any system is turing-complete.
23:51:44 <Train> Without too much effort.
23:51:50 <int-e> The usual view on any computer is that it's a finite state machine with a ridiculously huge state space... easily 2^2^2^40 states *excluding* external storage.
23:52:16 <int-e> So there's a disconnect between TC-ness (which computers aren't) and being useful for programming (which computers very much are).
23:52:20 <Train> Yep, but most esolangs deal with the hypothetical infinite case for the turing completeness proof.
23:52:35 <int-e> An interesting esolang case is Malbolge.
23:53:08 <Train> Remember that paper which showed a way to functionally program in Malbolge?
23:53:48 <int-e> which has about 3^590490 states, which technically makes it a finite state machine, but you can still program it by selecting starting states that exhibit interesting behavior.
23:54:29 <int-e> No, I don't. I have not actually delved into Malbolge programming... still amazed that people actually accomplished it :)
23:54:32 <Train> Since it has a finite number of programs, is it Turing complete? I wouldn't think so...
23:55:17 <int-e> But it did change my view on what constitutes programming, and how it relates (or doesn't) to Turing-completeness.
23:55:34 <Train> Yes. Malbolge is one of the more out-there ones.
23:55:37 <int-e> It's a finite state machine, so it's not TC.
23:56:38 <int-e> There's Malbolge Unshackled which lifts the memory constraint and is TC (as a programming language; implementations will be constrained by computer hardware).
23:57:07 <Train> It's just one of those languages that makes you think "who was sadistic enough to think of this"
23:58:22 <Train> Here's the Malbolge truth machine:
23:58:24 <Train> (aONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:98765FD21dd!-,O*)y'&v5#"!DC|Qzf,*vutsrqpF!Clk|ih
00:01:09 <Train> zzo38, I got the first part of the minsky engine working
00:01:21 <Train> now i just need instruction handling
00:13:54 <Train> https://esolangs.org/wiki/PATH is very similar to TrainCode
00:30:57 <pikhq> Malbolge is kinda interesting just by way of picking the least convenient option for each and every design decision that came up.
00:31:56 <pikhq> It's possible to make something more just straight-up weird I imagine, but I imagine not much less _useable_ without making serious sacrifices in theoretical capabilities.
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00:56:32 <esowiki> [[Oxcart]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71441&oldid=66839 * IFcoltransG * (+1) /* Program structure */ Spelling error
01:15:40 <esowiki> [[Control Flow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71442&oldid=71346 * IFcoltransG * (+233) Clarifications and filling in missing sections
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01:35:41 <pikhq> hard to have a conversation with someone who isn't here, isn't it? :P
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01:41:36 <zzo38> Yes, I would think so. But you can still write, if you have something to write, I suppose.
01:42:56 <TrainCode> And we can see what you have said through the logs.
01:44:22 <TrainCode> So you can still have a conversation with them.
01:46:59 <pikhq> yeah, i suppose that's true
01:47:31 * pikhq shall have to act as though people can read her words without being present
01:48:34 <pikhq> I forgot this channel has people who catch up on goings-on while absent by reading the public logs xd
01:48:39 <pikhq> It's been a while, admittedly
01:52:39 <pikhq> No, it's actually culturally normal _here_. I think this is the only channel I've been in where it's all that common though.
01:53:01 <TrainCode> hack.chat/?programming has it happen a lot
01:58:18 <fizzie> It's kind of uncommon on Freenode.
01:58:42 <pikhq> I suppose it's not that surprising given the logs in the topic though
01:58:52 <pikhq> Which has been a thing for... ages?
01:59:15 <pikhq> Think that was there even back when I first joined. ... god, like 15 years ago
02:00:13 <TrainCode> On hackchat, most people have some sort of logger bot.
02:00:28 <TrainCode> Because the server doesn't store chatlogs.
02:00:39 <pikhq> I connect via a bouncer these days
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02:02:29 <pikhq> The bouncer is being used for always-on and having shared client state between multiple systems, not for privacy reasons really
02:03:04 <zzo38> Freenode server doesn't store chat logs either I think; there is the bots to store the logs. (It is possible though to make a IRC server that does make public logs of public channels, although most don't.)
02:03:28 <pikhq> Better not be for privacy, seeing as "pikhq" is what I go by basically everywhere and you can pretty trivially find where in the world I live and where I work from there :)
02:04:25 <TrainCode> Hey, do you guys wanna talk on a hackchat?
02:05:22 <fizzie> Ooh, we have indeed had public logs for quite awhile.
02:05:26 <fizzie> [2003-01-18 02:49:02] < hcf> lament: would you like clog to log #esoteric?
02:05:26 <fizzie> [2003-01-18 02:50:58] < lament> i'm not sure. clog would talk more than an average regular :)
02:06:16 <pikhq> So, uh, given that you can probably find out a _lot_ of stuff about me if you're willing to pour over logs long enough :P
02:06:36 <pikhq> Or, more accurately, about teenage-to-early-college me mostly
02:07:50 * pikhq has, admittedly, grown and changed a fair bit since the now long gone year of 2005
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02:11:55 <TrainCode> Hey, do you guys wanna meet me on https://hack.chat/?esolangs
02:14:18 * pikhq doesn't particularly care to, but 🤷🏻♀️
02:15:52 <TrainCode> I like hackchat more. It just feels... polished, ya know?
02:16:27 <pikhq> I'm rather fond of my client
02:17:11 <pikhq> This system is Windows, though my client is IRCCloud, which is useable from a lot of systems
02:18:09 <pikhq> Currently I'm using Firefox; I do have a Python interpreter or 3 installed here, but I don't have Node because I really don't touch JS stuff
02:18:21 <pikhq> I've also got a _few_ C compilers at my ready...
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02:19:09 <pikhq> Lessee, we've got MSVC, Windows-targetting clang, x86_64-linux-gnu targetting gcc, x86_64-linux-gnu targetting clang, and x86_64-linux-musl targetting gcc...
02:19:50 <pikhq> Not to mention, a couple Rust installs
02:20:46 <fizzie> I'm contractually obligated to not use any chat systems not supported by fungot, and I don't think I can manage to write to a web thing from Befunge quite as easily.
02:20:46 <fungot> fizzie: which is sort of what boolfuck is to brainfuck... and the format is a full statement) ( cond
02:21:02 <fizzie> (Also, it's sleepytime.)
02:21:11 <fungot> pikhq: why are you dividing with the number one thousand one, the argument list with default values would be thunks that did possibly some i/ o systems changed significantly.' wikipedia
02:21:26 <shachaf> Is there a place I can read about the implementation of async/await in V8? Does it turn into something significantly different from the source code transformation something like Babel would do?
02:22:04 <pikhq> Hmm, now you have me curious, shachaf
02:23:08 <imode> iirc async stuff is thrown into the void as "might happen on another thread, might not".
02:36:12 <pikhq> how's things? aside from the world at large being scow, of course
02:40:16 <shachaf> You gotta do what you gotta do.
02:45:31 <pikhq> Feeling like even more of a social recluse than usual while wanting to be more social than I had prior to about a year ago, personally.
02:45:37 <pikhq> It's... kinda weird
02:50:04 <shachaf> Yep, that's the "what you gotta do" part.
02:53:39 <zzo38> The switches I want in the "cat" program are not shared at all with what the GNU implementation does; the stuff that the GNU implementation does is stuff that it seem to me should be better in separate programs; the program "cat" would just concatenate files (and/or standard input) only. But, there is a few option I think should be put in, such as to tell what to do in case of errors reading and in case of errors writing.
02:54:23 <pikhq> Hmm, those actually do seem somewhat more useful than the random transformations that GNU (and indeed, traditional Unix) cat can do
03:00:29 <shachaf> The purpose of cat is to copy data from a file or file descriptor to stdout. Concatenating files is secondary.
03:00:48 <shachaf> "purpose" according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSIWID
03:01:02 <pikhq> lmao, well, given thaaaat
03:01:32 <zzo38> Well, that is just the case where the number of files to concatenate is only one, which is of course a common case, and there is nothing wrong with that.
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03:09:43 <pikhq> In a certain way of looking at it, I suppose
03:09:52 <pikhq> Just concatenating N files where N=1
03:09:55 <pikhq> Seems trivial but hey
03:13:39 <shachaf> How should this spawn function return values and errors?
03:14:00 <shachaf> I just changed it to return a positive PID on success and a negative errno on failure.
03:14:26 <pikhq> That seems reasonable enough, assuming your error results will fit in that
03:22:25 <shachaf> I guess I'll stick with it.
03:23:10 <shachaf> What about this file traversal API? How should it return errors?
03:23:33 <pikhq> Assuming you're limited to C APIs, kinda hard
03:23:42 <pikhq> There's a few options but none of them great
03:23:50 <shachaf> Right now it's used like this: "NNFTW nnftw; nnftw_start(&nnftw, path, flags); while (nnftw_next(&nnftw)) { ...nnftw.path, etc.... }"
03:24:23 <shachaf> There can be multiple errors as it fails to open directories and so on.
03:25:13 <shachaf> I could make it return an error, as in, you have to check nnftw.err before using the file name, but it seems easy to forget about that.
03:26:19 <zzo38> You can both set nnftw.err and then blank the file name too.
03:26:26 <shachaf> I was thinking that by default it'll silently ignore errors, but you can pass in a flag saying that you want them, and then you have to check .err before using it.
03:26:55 <zzo38> Some functions in SQLite that write the result to a pointer will write a null pointer when it returns an error (in addition to returning the error code, and saving it to be able to retrieve it later).
03:27:15 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, that will work, I think
03:34:43 <pikhq> shachaf: I guess that works
03:34:56 <pikhq> API design is hard.
03:36:55 <shachaf> I'm not sure whether it's a good idea to skip errors silently by default.
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03:37:14 <shachaf> It's what nftw does (with no option to report errors), but maybe that's irrelevant.
03:38:26 <pikhq> If this were a not-C language I'd say maybe return some option type, but uh... well.
04:09:55 <shachaf> My file traversal program is 50-100% faster than `find` at printing all the files in /home. I would have expected find to be pretty fast at this task.
04:21:04 <esowiki> [[Arity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71443&oldid=69413 * IFcoltransG * (+32) A few extra synonyms
04:25:26 <zzo38> In Pokemon card there is one "rainbow energy" card, which can be used as any energy but also damages the card it is attached to. It is good; I once won the game with it despite already having enough energy to attack.
05:05:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Surreal FOREVER loop]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71444 * IFcoltransG * (+676) Created page with "There are some useful total programming languages. Total means they always terminate. In order that a language implementing forever loops can be Turing complete, it would need..."
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09:55:04 <cpressey> Concatenative version of the SK calculus. Doesn't need parentheses, then. But does need some extra combinators to manipulate the stack. Or maybe it's a queue instead of a stack and only has one extra combinator.
09:59:36 <user24> cpressey: Like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Jot / https://esolangs.org/wiki/Zot ?
10:04:39 <cpressey> I was thinking of something with a stack or a queue.
10:07:10 <user24> So you have the combinator tree and a stack in the background? Interesting :)
10:11:24 <user24> For some reason reminds me of a distributed computing paradigm in which intermediate results are put into a shared pool and then taken out by another process
10:13:54 <b_jonas> cpressey: look at lambda: the gathering. no parenthesis.
10:16:46 <b_jonas> also didn't you just make such an esolang a few months ago, and I pointed you to LTG at that point too?
10:17:08 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Wagon
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10:20:24 <b_jonas> Thue has been featured on the wiki frontpage for over a year. I think it's time to feature a new language.
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10:37:52 <b_jonas> int-e: "easily 2^2^2^40 states" => no way
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11:05:47 <cpressey> I don't really see the resemblance between Wagon and the SK calculus, myself
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11:13:52 <esowiki> [[Quark]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71445 * IFcoltransG * (+344) Created page with "{{stub}} '''Quark''' is a minimal concatenative, functional, homoiconic language akin to [[Forth]] and [[Joy]]. == External links == * [https://github.com/henrystanley/Quark/..."
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12:55:41 <int-e> b_jonas: oh yeah, that's one 2^ too many
12:55:51 <int-e> b_jonas: I got carried away :)
12:56:54 <int-e> Or maybe I went quantum. But that would put the "easily" in question. :)
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13:14:29 <kspalaiologos> a[256],c;main(){for(;~(c=getchar());a[c]++);for(;c<256;c++)while(a[c]--)putchar(c);} => ideas on golfing this tiny program?
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13:25:05 <int-e> eww, that accesses a[-1]
13:25:57 <myname> golfing c is often not done in a memory safe fassion, i guess
13:28:53 <fizzie> The access of a[-1] sounds fixable by making the latter loop `for(;++c<256;)` which would also be one character shorter than `for(;c<256;c++)`.
13:29:15 <int-e> a[257],c;main(){while(c=getchar()+1)a[c]++;while(c<257)a[c]--?putchar(c-1):c++;}
13:29:27 <int-e> is it possible to squeeze it all into a single loop?
13:30:01 <int-e> well, it's possible of course, but is it worthwhile in terms of size?
13:33:07 <int-e> oh there's this trick, too: a[257];main(c){while(c=getchar()+1)a[c]++;while(c<257)a[c]--?putchar(c-1):c++;}
13:34:32 <kspalaiologos> a[257];main(c){for(c=getchar()+1;a[c]++);while(c<257)a[c]--?putchar(c-1):c++;}
13:34:47 <int-e> kspalaiologos: but doesn't work
13:35:18 <int-e> there's no point in replacing while(cond) by for(;cond;) unless you actually use those empty blocks for something.
13:37:39 <int-e> myname: it's a fine line... but out of bounds access can easily cause the program to misbehave, since you're relying on values of uninitialized (possibly not even present) memory.
13:43:45 <FireFly> how about a[c]--?putchar(c-1):c++; -> a[c++]--&&putchar(--c); to save one byte?
13:44:16 <int-e> FireFly: cute idea, but it's off by one
13:44:49 <FireFly> it'd have to be (c-=2) and then it doesn't save you anything
13:46:01 <FireFly> wait, not quite.. but yeah, off-by-one in the output
13:47:57 <HackEso> olist 1201: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
13:49:55 * int-e wonders how kspalaiologos feels about this kind of undefined behavior: a[257];main(d,c){for(;d<257;)c?a[c=getchar()+1]++:a[d]--?putchar(d-1):d++;}
13:50:28 <int-e> (and reliance on argc being 1)
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13:52:44 <int-e> but in any case, putting it all into a single loop seems to pay off.
13:53:53 <int-e> there, a bit cleaner: a[257],d;main(c){while(d<256)c?a[c=getchar()+1]++:a[d+1]--?putchar(d):d++;}
13:55:05 <int-e> wait, what exactly is wrong with FireFly's trick then...
13:55:44 <FireFly> I accounted for the ++ with a -- but didn't account for the off-by-one in the value actually passed to putchar
13:56:09 <int-e> yeah, but I changed something and now it applies: //a[257],d;main(c){while(d<256)c?a[c=getchar()+1]++:a[d+1]--?putchar(d):d++;}
13:56:18 <int-e> a[257],d;main(c){while(d<256)c?a[c=getchar()+1]++:a[++d]--&&putchar(--d);}
13:58:53 <int-e> (something: I shifted the counter by 1)
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14:00:57 <int-e> That's 10 characters chopped off, as good a point to stop as any :)
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14:38:41 <esowiki> [[Bugmaker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71447&oldid=54950 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Gotchas */
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15:03:21 <cpressey> I give up on my idea. Applicative languages something something concatenative languages something combinators something combinators something, that's my reason for why it doesn't work.
15:05:45 <int-e> cpressey: if you want to do linear programming, you should go into math instead of computer science *runs*
15:08:12 * cpressey tries to work out the basis for that joke
15:09:05 <int-e> concatenative -> linear representations of programs
15:09:22 <int-e> I did it for the pun.
15:09:56 <int-e> (And I'm assuming you're aware of the traditional meaning of "linear programming")
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15:11:14 <cpressey> Oh, I thought it might be because I had so many unknowns in my statement.
15:11:54 <cpressey> That's also why I used 'basis'
15:11:56 <int-e> Unknowns... maybe in isolation, but I had too much context for that, I think.
15:12:21 <int-e> Oh, darn. I missed the "basis".
15:13:41 <int-e> Which is pretty good in connection with the simplex algorithm (which is about identifying the right basis to make optimality obvious).
15:17:18 <rain1> https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/3627784/does-the-fraction-of-distinct-substrings-in-prefixes-of-the-thue-morse-sequence the problem about thue-morse substrings has been answered
15:25:23 <int-e> . o O ( Is that a yes or a no? )
15:37:13 <esowiki> [[Do loop until failure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71448&oldid=45251 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-15) /* Implementations */ fixed python logic error (what if doSomething() failed the first time? then the program would exit)
15:41:03 <esowiki> [[Call/cc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71449&oldid=69568 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* A cryptic metaphor */ typo
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16:46:16 <esowiki> [[MMP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71452&oldid=52999 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+78) fix typo,cat add,etc
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20:32:44 <zzo38> Is this a figlet text? http://sprunge.us/wPJwBH
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20:38:30 <fizzie> It looks identical to what I get as the output from `figlet 'Bye for Now'`, at least.
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20:50:48 <esowiki> [[Awib]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71454&oldid=16220 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) fix link
20:51:56 <esowiki> [[KanjiCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71455&oldid=61390 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) fix link
20:54:18 <esowiki> [[Awib]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71456&oldid=71454 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+7) fix link, remove redlink
20:54:34 <esowiki> [[Awib]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71457&oldid=71456 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) lower title
20:57:29 <esowiki> [[APLBAONWSJAS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71458&oldid=58569 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-116) there is a python interpreter linked
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22:04:01 <HackEso> smlist 516: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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22:10:29 <esowiki> [[Skiforth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71459&oldid=71438 * Orby * (+168) Adding link to bootable ISO
22:11:42 <orbitaldecay> First stab at turning skiforth into a stand alone OS like a proper forth went pretty well
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22:39:20 <orbitaldecay> anybody know of any other esolangs that would make interesting OSes?
22:39:27 <orbitaldecay> I've got a framework now, might as well use it
22:41:04 <orbitaldecay> it'd be cool to have a bootable iso that could multiboot a variety of esolang OSes
22:41:11 <myname> what does you os different from an interpreter besides the ability to boot into it?
22:41:45 <orbitaldecay> ring-0 access, so the ability to play with the hardware and full access to the cpu and ram
22:42:11 <orbitaldecay> would just be funny to write device drivers in brainfuck
22:42:31 <b_jonas> orbitaldecay: so like easier to accidentally lose all your data with an OS
22:42:32 <myname> for various degrees of fun
22:42:55 <myname> but i don't see why you'd need a repl
22:42:56 <orbitaldecay> b_jonas: indeed. virtualbox is probably a smart way to go.
22:43:02 <myname> just make an inbuilt editor
22:43:02 <b_jonas> because there's no OS layer to enforce permissions on your user process
22:43:52 <b_jonas> some people consider it a good thing
22:44:09 <myname> having an editor and an interpreter would open your framework up to all ascii based 2d languages
22:44:47 <myname> i'd rather write a device driver in befunge than in brainfuck
22:56:46 <pikhq> In principal you could have a standalone booting Brainfuck environment, but I foresee it being very difficult to do usefully.
22:58:09 <fizzie> Well, there's https://github.com/catseye/BefOS
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23:03:29 <fizzie> There's also the https://www.bedroomlan.org/hardware/fungus/ if you wanted to design some hardware where that sort of thing would make more sense.
23:05:37 <fizzie> There was a CPU design course at the university where the main project was a MIPS CPU, but you could've gotten some extra points for adding a coprocessor of any kind, and we did think about doing a Befunge one but couldn't be bothered.
23:06:44 <fizzie> FWIW, any sort of "Befunge with subroutines" variant would probably be pretty practical as a basis for an environment. It's not particularly dissimilar from Forth, which people do use for that sort of thing.
23:07:44 <myname> i wonder if people actually made it possible to boot nodejs
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00:59:44 <zzo38> Can a dictionary be installed with both Canadian spelling? "aptitude show ispell-dictionary" mentions American and British, but not Canadian (which uses a combination of American and British spellings; in most cases, Canadian spelling matches whichever spelling is older, which is often British but not always).
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03:41:44 <Train> Wow. You seem like you are always online.
03:42:20 <pikhq> easy enough these days
03:42:26 <pikhq> what else is there to do, I guess
03:52:52 <zzo38> Do you like GURPS game?
03:54:19 <pikhq> Haven't played it since, like, 2010, but I did enjoy it
03:57:54 <zzo38> I played the GURPS on Sunday on the computer, and also a few weeks ago also on the computer. I also recorded all of them on the computer I rewrote it to write the story to read it
04:00:26 <zzo38> They are readable on a Fossil wiki at http://zzo38computer.org/gurpsgame/1.ui but you can also download the Hamster archive with the files. If you find any mistake in it, please notify me.
04:01:29 <zzo38> The link I made to the figlet text from before is also from the GURPS game; since there is only one player I can use a direct connection and don't need IRC, and that is what the GM sent; I suppose he used a figlet text.
04:03:50 <zzo38> Train: I think that you should write about your esolang in the esolang wiki
04:04:55 <zzo38> (You can access http://zzo38computer.org/gurpsgame/1.har if you want to download the Hamster archive file. A Hamster archive is a sequence of lumps, where each lump consists of the null-terminated ASCII filename, 32-bit PDP-endian data size, and then the data.)
04:05:37 <pikhq> Why am I not surprised you have a bespoke archive format.
04:06:06 <shachaf> I appreciate the PDP-endian size.
04:06:20 <pikhq> It is amusing, to be sure.
04:06:47 <Train> zzo38, I don't know if I should write about my esolang. It needs some tidying up.
04:08:03 <zzo38> I didn't invent it. (If I did, I probably would have used big-endian or small-endian instead of PDP-endian. The format is otherwise good though, and keeping the same format allows better compatibility with other programs using the same format.)
04:09:32 <zzo38> (PDP-endian isn't so bad either, since it is just as easy to work with, so I am not complaining about it.)
04:11:35 <zzo38> Train: What you wrote on sprunge seem like good enough to me
04:12:10 <Train> There are a few cases of undefined behaviour.
04:13:11 <zzo38> Ah, yes, such as you don't specify what happen in case of end of file.
04:13:23 <Train> It can never reach EOF.
04:13:46 <zzo38> In the case of the "d" command, the input might reach EOF, though.
04:14:21 <Train> no, because it only takes 1 byte of input, which is the first byte of input from the input
04:14:50 <zzo38> O, well, you didn't mention that in the document.
04:15:06 <zzo38> (Nor does that make much sense to me.)
04:15:12 <Train> Yeah, that's why the documentation is incomplete.
04:15:56 <Train> And if the lines are different lengths, the interpreter is just like:
04:15:57 <Train> https://i.imgflip.com/36qm8e.png
04:16:19 <zzo38> It doesn't specify the range of values in cells either, although based on what we discussed before it should be unlimited.
04:16:42 <Train> Yes. It has to be unlimited to be Turing complete.
04:17:21 <zzo38> And, yes, about the program lines being different lengths; presumably the program is not valid if the lines are of different lengths, although one thing that it could be made to do is to pad them with spaces on the right.
04:17:56 <Train> I thought about that, but then it does have some interesting repercussions on the complexity.
04:18:29 <zzo38> Another possibility is just to display an error message.
04:18:37 <zzo38> (and refuse to execute the program)
04:18:49 <Train> For example, it can either crash the interpreter or undefined behaviour.
04:19:19 <zzo38> You could also just explicitly specify that it is undefined behaviour if such a program is given.
04:19:54 <Train> I think I'll do the error messages and tidy up the interpreter now.
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06:33:21 <zzo38> Now I invented a chess variant, which is: If you en-passan an opponent's pawn, then you may optionally take any piece from off of the board (regardless of colour; you may even take the pawn that was just captured) and put it in the place of the captured pawn. You also must take a queen/knight/rook/bishop from off of the board for promotation; you can't have more than you started with.
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07:48:59 <cpressey> So I guess what it is, is this: in an applicative setting you can have combinators that operate on combinators to obtain new combinators; in a concatenative setting, you have, um, concatenatees, that operate on states to obtain new states, and which you concatenate together to produce new concatenatees.
07:51:02 <cpressey> If you insist on looking at concatenatees as combinators, each one takes exactly one other combinator, and produces a new combinator, but this has to terminate somewhere, and in the end you still have something that takes states to states instead
07:53:43 <cpressey> And if you say something like "states are combinators too", then that just sort of begs the question of where you draw the boundary between the combinators that are part of "the state" and the combinators that are part of "the program".
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08:30:39 <cpressey> Oh dear, joining #proglangdesign now requires "identification with services".
08:35:48 * cpressey is not sure it's worth setting that up just for a channel where most of the content is people trying to prove they have deeper understandings of substructal logics than other people
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09:00:29 <shachaf> cpressey: A bunch of channels turned that on temporarily becaue of some spam.
09:02:49 <cpressey> Oh hi shachaf. Hadn't seen you around for a while, wondered if you had given up on IRC.
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12:46:11 <rain1> ive got into studying maths again
12:49:30 <rain1> its hard to know the right thing to study though
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12:53:10 <cpressey> Springer just made a number of their textbooks free to download as e-books: https://github.com/alexgand/springer_free_books
12:53:56 <cpressey> In particular there's Kozen's "Automata and Computability": https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-1-4612-1844-9
13:02:19 <cpressey> rain1: Do you have any favourite parts of mathematics?
13:02:51 <rain1> yeah algebra, number theory, codes and groups ithink
13:03:30 <rain1> ill try that springer book, i grabbed 'proofs from teh book'
13:05:05 <int-e> Proofs from THE BOOK is on the list, interesting.
13:05:51 <myname> interesting, i didn't know out uni president wrote something like that
13:07:02 <int-e> Oh, rain1 beat me to that observation. Anyway, link: http://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-662-57265-8
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13:22:23 <int-e> "Introduction to Programming with Fortran"
14:00:40 <b_jonas> cpressey: ah yes, a lot of publishers advertised such a deal with books. And when I follow them, it usually turns out that it only applies to a few uninteresting books, not the ones I'm looking for.
14:01:20 <b_jonas> But I can be fooled once more, so I'll look at this Springer deal.
14:16:25 <esowiki> [[MangularJS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71465&oldid=71463 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+177) /* Restrictions */
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18:09:47 <esowiki> [[Skiforth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71466&oldid=71459 * Orby * (+32)
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21:18:59 <zzo38> I wrote this http://sprunge.us/jdR90S which is my current plan how to make the random pack generation working for TeXnicard. Do you think it is good enough? Do you have other comments of it please?
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22:31:35 <zzo38> A file I found mentions "simulated collation", which is simulating the printing and packaging process of official sets. This is something I have thought of for TeXnicard too, although I forgot when writing the document I linked, although I can easily add it; if you specify a name with / at first then it is a sheet name.
22:33:07 <zzo38> It says "Due to the required effort on the set designer's part of making card lists of the print sheets, no custom sets use this method so far", although with TeXnicard it will be easy enough to make card lists of print sheets, since rendering templates use the "setsheets" PostScript procedure to specify which sheet to print it on.
22:47:30 <zzo38> I found another set of documents about the card collation in Magic: the Gathering.
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22:58:42 <zzo38> I do not entirely understand it, though.
22:59:19 <zzo38> http://www.lethe.xyz/mtg/collation/
22:59:22 <orbitaldecay> I decided to add automatic church numerals to skiforth and I have mixed feelings about it
22:59:25 <zzo38> I am reading it though to see how it is working
22:59:32 <orbitaldecay> I think it's kind of useful, but not strictly necessary
22:59:51 <zzo38> orbitaldecay: I expect adding automatic numbers would make the program run more efficiently
23:00:10 <esowiki> [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71468&oldid=71214 * Hakerh400 * (-13) /* Resources */ No longer dead
23:00:31 <orbitaldecay> yes, definitely, I've been trying to strike a balance between some kind of usability and keeping it minimal
23:00:56 <orbitaldecay> especially if I add RAM access, automatic numbers will be very handy
23:04:33 <pikhq> I imagine that would be hard to use without them, yeah
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23:04:50 <orbitaldecay> zzo38:: what piqued your interest in collation?
23:05:27 <zzo38> orbitaldecay: Well, I want to make the random pack generation working for TeXnicard. One way to do it would be simulated collation, although there is other way too.
23:05:49 <zzo38> I intend it can be supported both ways.
23:06:12 <zzo38> See http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui for a description of TeXnicard.
23:06:29 <zzo38> Are you interested in custom cards for Magic: the Gathering or other card games?
23:07:55 <orbitaldecay> huh, interesting. I am interested in making card games, so it looks useful in that context.
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23:08:47 <zzo38> If you have further questions after reading the documentation, please tell me so that I may add them into the documentation and/or the frequently asked questions section. You can ask me here, or on my NNTP server, or in the Fossil ticketing system.
23:09:21 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:09:54 <zzo38> (Although the ticketing system is meant mainly for bug reports and feature requests. General discussion should preferably use the NNTP.)
23:11:23 <orbitaldecay> I have a friend who is especially into making games (even moreso than myself) and would also find it very interesting
23:12:20 <LKoen> zzo38: would your texnicard software be recommended for card games other than magic?
23:12:35 <LKoen> say I want to make cards for dominion
23:13:03 <LKoen> orbitaldecay: you would probably be interested in Dvorak as well
23:13:17 <zzo38> LKoen: Yes, it is intended to be generic and not specific to Magic: the Gathering.
23:15:49 <LKoen> orbitaldecay: see https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/9010/dvorak and http://www.dvorakgame.co.uk/index.php/Main_Page
23:17:18 <LKoen> the idea of the game is usually to make cards as the game goes
23:17:29 <LKoen> but the second link is a wiki full of pre-made decks
23:18:17 <zzo38> I should probably implement the paragraph formatting. (If you want to use it now, you would have to use PostScript text rendering instead, although I intend to implement TeX-like paragraph formatting too, using TeX fonts. PostScript text rendering will remain available, though, since that feature is included "for free".)
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23:55:14 <esowiki> [[CopyPasta Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71469&oldid=70456 * Rerednaw * (+99)
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00:47:43 <zzo38> One feature I do not intend to implement in TeXnicard is hyphenation, since it should hopefully be unnecessary.
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02:17:46 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Fwander * New user account
02:22:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71470&oldid=71355 * Fwander * (+303)
03:11:32 <zzo38> LKoen: I don't know about Dominion, although from the instructions on the wiki you linked about Dvorak game, it would seem making templates for Dvorak would nto be so difficult.
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03:37:26 <esowiki> [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71471&oldid=71411 * YamTokTpaFa * (+65) Program modification: !'s were missing
03:38:01 <esowiki> [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71472&oldid=71471 * YamTokTpaFa * (+4) /* Assumptions */ noted->commented
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04:58:38 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71477&oldid=71476 * YamTokTpaFa * (-367)
05:01:16 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71478&oldid=71477 * YamTokTpaFa * (-2402) moving by copy and paste
05:01:52 <esowiki> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71479 * YamTokTpaFa * (+2430) Created page with "The '''''' (''Zundoko Kiyoshi'') function, also known as '''''' (''Kiyoshi check'') or '''''' (''Zundoko chec..."
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06:09:00 <zzo38> ;; Enchantment - Aura ;; Enchant permanent ;; When enchanted permanent would become tapped, instead that permanent becomes tapped and ~ gets a new timestamp. ;; Enchanted permanent loses all abilities while tapped.
06:10:30 <esowiki> [[Butterbrain]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71480 * Fwander * (+8102) Created page with "=ButterBrain= '''ButterBrain''' is an esolang heavily inspired by [[Brainfuck]]. Butterbrain and brainfuck both share the idea of a strip of memory cells that can be looked at..."
06:13:43 <esowiki> [[User:Fwander]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71481 * Fwander * (+34) Created page with "===Contrbutions=== [[butterbrain]]"
06:15:23 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71482&oldid=71462 * Fwander * (+18) /* B */
06:23:41 <zzo38> What name and mana cost and other changes?
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09:00:48 <esowiki> [[Butterbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71483&oldid=71480 * Voltage2007 * (+6)
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10:39:43 <cpressey> The Jot page gives a method for translating SKI terms to Jot terms but it doesn't seem to say what to do with parentheses.
10:40:50 <rain1> maybe the parens are not part of it
10:40:56 <rain1> just working on the AST directly
10:41:43 <cpressey> http://www.nyu.edu/projects/barker/Iota/ -- scroll down to "Here are the rules for mapping an arbitrary CL program into Jot:"
10:42:04 <cpressey> I fail to see how that translation gives different results for, say, I(SK) and (IS)K
10:42:58 <cpressey> Or is it understood that you translate starting at the deepest nested terms?
10:44:18 <rain1> so SK maps to *[i*i*i*ii][*i*i*ii]
10:44:37 <rain1> and IS maps to *[*ii][*i*i*i*ii]
10:44:58 <cpressey> I think that's Iota; Jot is halfway down the page
10:45:07 <rain1> oh yeah sorry im reading the wrong bit
10:45:26 <rain1> oh and the square brackets aren't a thing
10:45:29 <rain1> that's the mapping
10:46:13 <rain1> so [I(SK)] = 1[I][SK] = 1[I]1[S][K] = 1[I]11111100011100
10:46:40 <rain1> and [(IS)K] = 1[IS][K] = 11[I][S][K] = 11[I]1111100011100
10:47:06 <rain1> so having the 1 is in a different place seems the only difference, for the bracketing
10:55:27 <cpressey> OK, so the translation has to follow the nesting. Thanks.
11:01:22 <cpressey> It's a bit clearer to me if I think of there being an implicit "apply" operator in between A and B in a term like AB.
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11:19:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Unpseudorandom]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71484 * IFcoltransG * (+356) Created page with "I just realised: code after a <code>.</code> mightn't be redundant if it's within a loop. Loops that have <code>.</code> in a loop as their last command may be useful. If some..."
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11:28:35 <esowiki> [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71485&oldid=71239 * RocketRace * (+62) Add date and author
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17:43:04 <HackEso> zekrow palon basauroth pet sawsbuck lycanroc decidueye munchkrok deerlia sandoom
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18:14:42 <zzo38> Do you like to play Pokemon card or Pokemon mahjong?
18:15:59 <zzo38> Maybe you know how to make my Pokemon mahjong rules work for next generation of Pokemon?
18:16:06 <HackEso> sbeescoin advvitcoin 108coin .coin prouplomicoin pureheadcoin hexcoin thcoin divzerofibcoin eloughcoin bagatacoin bam128coin ztracktrobaz,ohmy!coin decastaikcoin 157.6coin worbcoin fmularerowcoin enrokcoin ///coin ernameoncoin
18:16:40 <HackEso> polyncoin eta-julecoin tractcoin gasoitcoin bradolcoin steacoin junxcoin backing-boolcoin mdpcoin braicoin dolcoin nuctcoin verizzocoin barinworscoin rnadermacoin picoin carandahcoin eteneverscoin resorthtcoin restrecoin
18:17:25 <kmc> manic dream pixie coin
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18:18:47 <zzo38> So far I have rules for alternate forms of pokemons up to generation VII; I don't have generation VIII or IX or X yet, and I also don't know if other rules might need updated for that too.
18:19:20 <zzo38> (Note: The rules support playing any number of generations from only one to all of them, which effectively makes later generations optional rules.)
18:20:32 <zzo38> Also someone said they would abandon the numbering scheme of pokemon in future; if they do that then the mahjong game won't work with those generations, since the pokemon numbering scheme is a core part of the game.
18:23:26 <pikhq> zzo38: I think they kinda already have -- since the national dex isn't even a thing anymore
18:25:29 <zzo38> O, they already did. Does that mean there are no more numbers for the latest generation? (Which generation is the latest one? I haven't kept track of it)
18:28:40 <pikhq> I don't think they have national dex numbers at all in gen IX, no
18:29:12 <pikhq> Gen VIII didn't have the national dex in the game, but Poke Bank did assign national dex numbers
18:29:31 <pikhq> (also, all the Pokemon were _in_ it, just w/out dex entries)
18:30:17 <zzo38> If, like gen II and later, they have internal numbers the same as the displayed numbers, then you can use those numbers even if they aren't displayed, I suppose, but depending on what they are doing, maybe that won't work.
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18:37:17 <li_> hi fuckers
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18:52:27 <zzo38> My rules for Pokemon mahjong have many features that are not found in the standard Japanese mahjong game, such as the draft, wild cards, double-kind sequences, stones, the possibility to draw the dora indicator, additional irregular hands, etc.
18:53:08 <zzo38> (And, ippatsu does not count for tsumo win.)
19:19:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Alphabet Stew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71488&oldid=69988 * DMC * (+93)
19:28:33 <zzo38> The BSD boggle game says 0% if you did not find any words because there aren't any words in the grid.
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20:09:21 <esowiki> [[Calcutape]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71489&oldid=62033 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Implementations */
20:09:49 <esowiki> [[Calcutape]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71490&oldid=71489 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Implementations */ both dead links
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20:45:30 <zzo38> Which random number generator should I use, ACORN or ISAAC or something else?
20:47:09 <Train> Depends on the use. It if's secure ISAAC, otherwise ACORN.
20:47:29 <pikhq> Depends on what you need it for, really
20:48:05 <esowiki> [[Uack]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71492 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1415) Created page with "'''Uack''' is an esolang made by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Memory model== An arbitrary-length stack. ==Datatypes== Datatypes are function (which always take an inte..."
20:49:36 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71493&oldid=71491 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+94) /* Languages */
20:50:38 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71494&oldid=71428 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1152) /* 2 */
20:51:40 <zzo38> Well, I want it to be uniform and have a large period and difficult to predict
20:51:58 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/RandomNameGenerator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71495&oldid=71467 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+430)
20:52:20 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71496&oldid=71482 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* U */ + [[Uack]]
20:53:28 <zzo38> The Wikipedia article about "Pseudorandom number generator" lists the BSI evaulation criteria, of which there are K1, K2, K3, and K4. I care about K1 and K2 and K3, although K4 is less important.
21:23:25 <zzo38> Of course there are many other random generators too.
21:26:06 <esowiki> [[Quark]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71497&oldid=71445 * Zzo38 * (+23)
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21:33:37 <Slyda1> [07:29.18] <Slyda1> there isnt really AI. It is all based on us, people. It is an Australia Army Simulation
21:33:38 <Slyda1> [07:29.29] <Slyda1> they want and may of simulated war in the 1950's
21:33:38 <Slyda1> [07:29.32] <Slyda1> they want to simulate war
21:33:38 <Slyda1> [07:29.36] <Slyda1> and enslave us all
21:33:38 <Slyda1> [07:30.13] <Slyda1> Jesus Christ was the first one to simulate in 1994 at Lloyd St Enoggera
21:33:39 <Slyda1> [07:30.20] <Slyda1> they want to kill him and simulate war
21:37:35 <Train> zzo38? I have another question about Minsky machines.
21:38:18 <zzo38> Train: OK, what question?
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21:43:11 <Train> Do I have to implement the entire Minsky machine in TrainCode or can I make a python program to evaluate Minsky instructions and turn them into TrainCode?
21:45:42 <zzo38> You can use a Python program to convert Minsky instructions into a TrainCode program, although the calculation that the Minsky program performs will need to be performed by the equivalent TrainCode program.
21:45:54 <zzo38> (I don't know if I am being clearly enough, though.)
21:46:56 <Train> So can the python program decide on the decrement parts and do the flow control, or does the TrainCode need to do flow control??
21:47:40 <zzo38> The Python program can convert the Minsky flow control into the TrainCode flow control.
21:49:10 <Slyda1> 1994 the simulation, my IP ends in 194
21:49:17 <Slyda1> 1996 the matrix concept
21:50:09 <zzo38> (i.e. The Python program, when it finds a decrement command in the Minsky program, would add a n command into the TrainCode program, and then add mirrors and stuff in order to direct the flow control to the target command in the TrainCode program corresponding to that point in the Minsky program, which the Python program would keep track of.)
21:50:13 <Slyda1> Lloyd St Enoggera was where the first simulation happened
21:50:31 <Slyda1> and coding is supposed to be like this... here's a coding language name for you... Leptorans
21:51:01 <Slyda1> not python, windows, angular, react... its just rape
21:51:09 <Train> thanks zzo38, so I can't have flow control in the python program.
21:51:14 <Train> this will be difficult
21:51:39 <Slyda1> how could would that be
21:51:45 <Slyda1> Yetoasda coding language
21:52:03 <Slyda1> but you use react, angular, javascript... and java probably was something
21:52:11 <Slyda1> start your own coding language
21:52:26 <Slyda1> java... what was the image with that?
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22:00:06 <Slyda1> is that how they talk!
22:00:34 <Slyda1> ONLY Jesus Christ can do this
22:01:10 <Slyda1> have a look at the crows
22:01:20 <Slyda1> you think they are bots
22:01:24 <Slyda1> they are simulated PEOPLE
22:01:33 <zzo38> Slyda1: Well, I do not understand what a lot of what you mean anyways. But there is not the king in England so far, just the queen. And, Jesus Christ is dead since a long time ago.
22:01:41 <Slyda1> wonder why the internet is getting worse? bots you say
22:01:45 <Slyda1> they are simulated PEOPLE
22:01:51 <zzo38> (There was the king in the past, but now it is queen)
22:02:03 <Slyda1> zzo38 you WILL find out!
22:02:37 <Slyda1> Englands old king died because they changed the bible because the royals had the saints and they could
22:03:01 <Slyda1> edinburgh - garden of eden - phillip - lipton tea
22:03:13 <Train> zzo38, it's either a bot or a spammer.
22:03:16 <zzo38> The reason internet is getting worse is due to many things, including stupid people, idiotic people, and love of money.
22:03:39 <Slyda1> dont say there are bots! wait, if you do, you would be american, and you need to realise, in america, you are owned by the TV and food
22:03:46 <Train> It displays behavior much like GPT-2
22:04:43 <Slyda1> they have big meanings
22:05:20 <Slyda1> are you being simulated?
22:05:32 <Slyda1> but you just think its bad
22:05:41 <Slyda1> keep your clothes dirty
22:05:46 <Train> It's either a bot or a spammer.
22:06:01 <Slyda1> if you are being simulated, be dirty then
22:06:12 <Slyda1> keep your hair not brushed and dirty
22:06:31 <Slyda1> keep things in your house as you are or want to be
22:06:43 <Slyda1> not as you see it should be
22:08:12 <Train> I think you broke it with the non-ASCII chars.
22:08:48 <Slyda1> do you know cars drive in simulated packets?
22:10:37 <Slyda1> Get a gun. Get your computer. A real smart one. Re-visit code, similar words, if you see the word repeated twice like _get_ *get*... revisit it then type something predatory.... Australia Army have no skill are robots radio controlled because of what they did to the messiah
22:10:52 <Slyda1> go to an army base with your computer
22:10:58 <Slyda1> there is one in brisbane city
22:11:03 <Slyda1> have a look on the walls
22:11:08 <Slyda1> they are driving outside now
22:11:19 <Train> If any moderators are listening, please stop the spammer.
22:11:48 <Slyda1> say you are interested in what they do there
22:11:56 <Slyda1> then look at the pictures
22:12:01 <Slyda1> they will tell you something about it
22:12:08 <Slyda1> then have a look at your computer
22:12:27 <Slyda1> write some things down
22:12:31 <Slyda1> have a look at a codex
22:12:50 <Slyda1> then _program_ your code
22:13:31 <Slyda1> highlight the code that strikes twice or four times
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22:14:25 <fizzie> See, no need for any intervention.
22:14:38 <Train> It just doubled the size of today's log files.
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22:15:22 <fizzie> I was off looking up the chanserv quiet syntax again. But it usually just gets people angry and avoiding and real noisy.
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22:32:50 <Train> zzo38... I think there might be an easier way to prove that TrainCode is TC.
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22:44:37 <Train> I can just prove that every brainfuck instruction has a series of TrainCode equations.
22:46:22 <pikhq> That is a way to do it, at least
22:46:35 <Train> It proves TC is TC.
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00:31:13 <zzo38> Yes, that will do it too
00:32:27 <esowiki> [[Double Helix]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71498 * Hakerh400 * (+4892) +[[Double Helix]]
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03:35:25 <zzo38> Does C have any function like PostScript's /ReusableStreamDecode filter?
03:38:38 <zzo38> It reads an entire file into memory at once so that now it is seekable.
03:38:51 <zzo38> (Even if the original file wasn't seekable.)
03:39:57 <shachaf> Do you mean in the standard library?
03:40:09 <shachaf> I'm not sure such a function belongs in the standard library.
03:40:39 <zzo38> Maybe you are correct, but I also wanted to know if GNU or POSIX has it.
03:40:57 <shachaf> POSIX has mmap which might be better for many purposes.
03:47:11 <zzo38> Yes, for some purposes it is better.
04:15:46 <imode> C's standard library doesn't have a function like that. wouldn't that just be loading a file into memory byte by byte and operating on that.
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04:16:42 <zzo38> Yes, it is like that. Of course it is not a problem if it doesn't have; I just was wondering about it.
04:17:29 <imode> C has functions to actively seek through files without loading them into memory.
04:18:14 <zzo38> Yes, but some files are not rewindable.
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04:19:53 <zzo38> Such as many files that aren't a disk file.
04:30:41 <zzo38> I was just wondering, actually.
04:31:58 <shachaf> There are all sorts of ways you might want to allocate memory for the file.
04:40:13 <imode> what happens if the file doesn't have an EOF character?
04:40:22 <imode> s/EOF character/EOF marker
04:41:33 <shachaf> Why would a file have an EOF character?
04:42:04 <zzo38> If it doesn't have EOF then it won't work, of course.
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04:54:37 <pikhq> Hardly anyone uses an OS that has an EOF character as actually part of the file
04:54:47 <Train> I had an idea for an "improvement" on TrainCode.
04:54:57 <pikhq> Rather than just a weird artifact of APIs like getc()
04:56:50 <PlasmaPower> I created this Befunge-98 snippet which freezes the cfunge and rcfunge interpreters: https://gist.github.com/PlasmaPower/39f01e1289d5d4bd84953335efd5f7de
04:57:19 <PlasmaPower> I'm not sure if anyone's done this before, but it creates a flying IP that's always going to be out of bounds, then uses another thread to overwrite the currently executing instruction to put it in string mode and process a space
04:57:36 <PlasmaPower> I'm guessing the interpreters get stuck trying to skip over future spaces
04:58:32 <zzo38> Train: What is your idea for "improvement" on TrainCode?
05:00:19 <Train> the character # splits a train.
05:00:46 <Train> It creates a new instruction and data pointer at it's position if the IP goes over it, and sets them to RIGHT
05:04:20 <Train> What do you think?
05:04:25 <zzo38> I suppose it can be a a possible extension
05:04:39 <Train> And two new chars: e and f
05:04:49 <Train> Change the relative data pointer for each IP
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05:06:11 <zzo38> I think that perhaps they should be called separate extensions or separate levels, similar to how SNUSP does
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06:30:40 <Train> zzo38, what do you think of multiple pointers?
06:31:32 <zzo38> Train: I mentioned after you disconnection, I can mention again
06:31:42 <zzo38> I think that perhaps they should be called separate extensions or separate levels, similar to how SNUSP does
06:31:59 <zzo38> (Also, you did not quite exaplain how e and f are working)
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06:32:27 <Train> e decrements the reference for the data pointer for the current IP, and vice versa for f
06:32:40 <Train> so it changes the pairings of DP and IP
06:32:56 <Train> each IP has an assigned DP, and e/f change that assigned DP
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08:02:33 <cpressey> I'll go one further on what I said yesterday: in Jot, the 1 combinator serves the role of a prefix application operator, which lets you construct programs in "forward Polish notation", which is how it can dispense away with parentheses.
08:02:51 <cpressey> s/dispense away with/dispense with/
08:04:40 <cpressey> The "reverse Polish notation" in concatenative languages also lets you dispense with parentheses, and that's often stated as a selling point, but it's actually stronger than that: in a concatenative language, concatenation is associative, and that's the reason why you can dispense with pareentheses.
08:06:56 <cpressey> (I don't know if there is any actual signficant practical value to having concatenation be associative, actually, but it's aesthetically pleasing, at least.)
08:14:23 <shachaf> Are reverse and forward Polish notation actually different in that respect?
08:19:31 <cpressey> In the sense that in FPN a symbol sets up an expectation of what follows it (its argument(s)), and in RPN it doesn't, I would say yes.
08:27:15 <cpressey> But, I would admit that that's looking at it as syntax only.
08:33:48 <shachaf> If you reverse an RPN program, don't you get a PN program?
08:34:12 <shachaf> Maybe there's a practical thing where RPN is more amenable to things that takes a variable number of arguments or do other bizarro stack operations.
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08:39:33 <Train> This is my fourth hour of debugging my interpreter... I've had to deal with the weirdest bugs.
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08:44:47 <cpressey> shachaf: I don't really know; I'm mainly trying to explain to myself out loud why my idea for a concatenative version of the SKI calculus seemed obvious and easy when I first thought of it, but turned out to be much less obvious when I tried to work it out.
08:45:08 <Train> I've been converting my code, which was expressly designed for single-pointers into an n-pointer system, with two types of pointers and parallel processing.
08:45:10 <cpressey> Maybe it actually is obvious and easy and I'm just overthinking it.
08:45:45 <Train> Maybe, but many problems depend on your method of thinking.
08:46:12 <Train> For example, in my esolang, I couldn't find a quine for days, and zzo38 on here found one in less than an hour.
08:46:26 <Train> His method of thinking was very different to mine, and it worked far better.
08:46:34 <shachaf> Is 1 in Jot like ` in Unlambda?
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10:46:56 <rain1> https://www.lmfdb.org/NumberField/?galois_group=6T4
10:46:59 <rain1> this i sa good site
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13:12:18 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71504&oldid=71499 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* U */ + [[Unary Filesystem]]
13:13:07 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71505&oldid=71493 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+70) /* Languages */
13:13:26 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71506&oldid=71505 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Languages */
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13:16:16 <esowiki> [[Double Helix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71507&oldid=71498 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+36)
13:17:14 <esowiki> [[Double Helix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71508&oldid=71507 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-24) link + typo fix
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13:59:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71509&oldid=71502 * Orby * (-42) /* The set of PF languages is empty */
13:59:49 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71510&oldid=71509 * Orby * (-39) /* The set of PF languages is empty */
14:02:30 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71511 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) Redirected page to [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]
14:03:25 <orbitaldecay> Is oerjan still active? I haven't seen him around in a while.
14:05:20 <wib_jonas> orbitaldecay: yes, he hasn't disappeared yet
14:06:46 <esowiki> [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71512&oldid=63959 * Orby * (+163)
14:07:16 <orbitaldecay> wib_jonas: cool. he and I were working a project a few years ago that I made some progress on yesterday. just trying to reconnect with him.
14:09:06 <orbitaldecay> or anybody else who's interested in BF minimizations. I need some verification on a proof I wrote that there is no 2 command minimization of reversible bitfuck.
14:12:18 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71513&oldid=71506 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) /* Languages */
14:13:14 <esowiki> [[The Past]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71514&oldid=71400 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+126) cats
14:13:35 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71515&oldid=71504 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* T */ + [[The Past]]
14:30:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71516&oldid=71510 * Orby * (+664) /* The set of PF languages is empty */
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15:38:50 <arseniiv_> now I have one we will totally be proud of: V* is just a negation of V, assuming the scalar field is a contradiction
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15:40:01 <arseniiv> and it’s correct of course, as “negation of X assuming Y is a contradiction” is simply X → Y
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16:41:17 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Leo1 * New user account
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17:10:35 <rain1> solvable 1d peg solitaire problems are regular
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18:41:51 <rain1> myname: 2d is apparently NP complete
18:42:04 <rain1> im not sure i get how this is possible
18:42:16 <rain1> since it can be solved with an easy depth first search
18:42:33 <rain1> and the maximum depth will be equal to the number of pegs
18:42:44 <myname> well, tsp can be solved by filling a matrix
18:42:46 <rain1> does that leave enough room for it to still be NP complete?
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18:43:32 <zzo38> If someone claims to have the perfect programming language, he is either a fool or a salesman or both.
18:44:56 <myname> i fail to see how to solve it ith a simple dfs, though
18:45:34 <myname> like, wouldn't you need to make a dfs where each step is a new dfs?
18:49:02 <rain1> i am not claiming that peg solitaire is a perfect programming language
18:50:24 <esowiki> [[Reversible Bitfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71517 * Orby * (+3970) Finally getting around to creating a standalone page for Reversible Bitfuck
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18:51:10 <myname> rain1: i'd like to see your solver with a dfs
18:52:59 <rain1> i dont have it, i wrote it a long time ago
18:53:15 <rain1> it's very simple though, just list all moves at each step
18:53:20 <esowiki> [[Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71518&oldid=51581 * Orby * (-2496) Moving definition of RBF to its own page
18:53:40 <myname> i doubt that this will work with polynomial time
18:54:43 <myname> the previous to last move has 3 pegs with potentially 4 (minimum, can't think of more) moves
18:55:15 <myname> 4 pegs can lead to different configurations of 3 pegs with more than one move
18:55:32 <myname> i fail to see how this is not exponential
18:55:53 <esowiki> [[Nanofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71519&oldid=69875 * Orby * (-6) Updating links to point to reversible bitfuck page
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18:57:15 <esowiki> [[Reversible Bitfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71520&oldid=71517 * Orby * (+145) Adding categories
18:57:35 <esowiki> [[Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71521&oldid=71518 * Orby * (+145) Adding categories
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19:02:19 <esowiki> [[Nanofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71522&oldid=71519 * Orby * (+254) /* Reversible Bitfuck */ Nanofuck has a dual language, NF'
19:02:59 <esowiki> [[Nanofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71523&oldid=71522 * Orby * (+8) /* Reversible Bitfuck */ Fixing formatting. Sorry for edit spam.
19:10:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71524&oldid=71516 * Orby * (+56) Found a problem with the non-existence proof
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19:11:56 <orbitaldecay> This 2 command reversible bitfuck minimization problem is driving me nuts. I've been thinking about this in the back of my head for years.
19:12:18 <orbitaldecay> It seems impossible, but I can't find the proof
19:12:39 <rain1> I will check it out
19:13:16 <orbitaldecay> Oerjan and I worked on it for like a month straight in 2017 and got nowhere
19:15:43 <rain1> this is really cool stuff
19:15:49 <rain1> i normally don't look into brainfuck related things anymore
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19:20:12 <esowiki> [[Pure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71525&oldid=70523 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) /* See also */
19:21:57 <rain1> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Picofuck this seems like a very hard problem
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19:23:10 <esowiki> [[Pure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71526&oldid=71525 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-24) It is not backwards compable
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19:24:08 <rain1> is it acceptable for a PF language to use 1/n'th of the tape for real data and the rest for scratch?
19:25:39 <rain1> is there a 2 command version of brainfuck/bitfuck (non reversible)
19:28:16 <orbitaldecay> rain1: yeah, PF is a hard problem. A PF language can use the tape however it wants provided it's a simple translation of RBF.
19:28:34 <orbitaldecay> I don't know of a 2 command version of brainfuck (even excluding I/O) that's a "simple translation"
19:29:07 <myname> 2 command bfs are pretty easy
19:29:16 <orbitaldecay> The simple translation definition formalizes the notion of "not cheating", otherwise you can do all kinds of context dependent nonsense and call it a minimization
19:29:24 <rain1> have you considered candidate based on the language of matching brackets? [], [][], [][][], ..., [[]], [[[]]], ..., [[][]], type strings
19:30:17 <rain1> i guess all candidates are like that actually
19:30:23 <orbitaldecay> I have generally used [ and ] to discuss potential PF commands, but it is not known whether or not bracket matching of that type would be the appropriate grammar for a PF
19:30:41 <orbitaldecay> The syntax might be two [ for each ], e.g. [[], or something else
19:31:22 <myname> what does "leave the machine in state t_1" mean in the definition of reversibility? the tape pointer?
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19:33:08 <orbitaldecay> 2 command BFs are easy that are not what I call "simple translations" of BF. e.g. unary, turning tarpits, etc.
19:33:53 <orbitaldecay> braincrash is the classic example of a turning tarpit that isn't actually a "simple translation" because it's context dependent
19:34:33 <rain1> i wish i could solve this problem
19:34:46 <rain1> i can't make my mind up if any PF exists or not
19:35:07 <orbitaldecay> I've been trying to prove they don't exist for years
19:35:46 <orbitaldecay> nanofuck is as small as I've gotten and I suspect it's minimal
19:36:38 <rain1> nanofuck is very impressive already
19:37:15 <orbitaldecay> NF wasn't hard to find. I'm sure there are other interesting 3 command variants aside from NF and NF'
19:37:39 <orbitaldecay> I mean, obviously there are an infinite number of 3 command variants, but most of them just contain huge swaths of nops
19:39:04 <rain1> i wonder if you could do that makes [] act like * but [][] act like brackets
19:39:11 <rain1> by using every second cell as a scratch space
19:39:44 <orbitaldecay> The idea behind requiring a "simple translation" is to restrict context dependence, which in my view is cheating
19:39:57 <myname> it's questionable if this is reversible
19:40:44 <rain1> maybe it would only be reversible if we add a restriction that we must write [X][X] (same contents each time), but then htis probabyl violates the simple translation requirement
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19:41:11 <orbitaldecay> yeah, how do you translate [ into an RBF string if [ has different meanings in different contexts?
19:41:33 <orbitaldecay> you could store that context on the tape, but then you have to prevent it from being overwritten
19:41:46 <rain1> yeah storing it on the tape is what i was thinking
19:42:18 <rain1> i feel like the ability to use scratch space on the tape is what makes it hard to prove this impossible (or potentially gives us the ability to pull it off)
19:42:39 <rain1> but we only get a finite amount of data from this
19:42:47 <orbitaldecay> it depends on how you define the isomorphism between tapes
19:43:24 <orbitaldecay> if you say the tape has to be literally the same, then scratch space doesn't fly, if there just needs to be an isomorphism between the tapes, then map each cell position n to 2n in the converted tape
19:44:04 <orbitaldecay> basically the pf language could only use the even cells and use the odd cells for storing context
19:44:27 <orbitaldecay> It's not the most satisfying answer, but if that's all that exists I'd be happy with it
19:45:43 <orbitaldecay> first priority would be making the tapes match exactly though
19:46:10 <rain1> maybe it could be proven that matching tapes is impossible
19:46:23 <rain1> what would this additional restriction of matching tapes imply
19:46:51 <orbitaldecay> I mean, matching tapes is possible with 3 command simple translations because I've done it
19:47:07 <orbitaldecay> I've generally been going for matching tapes when looking for 2 command simple translations as well
19:47:18 <orbitaldecay> I haven't explored storing context on the tape very much
19:47:35 <orbitaldecay> it seems like that is a little bit of a loophole
19:47:51 <orbitaldecay> it might make sense to define simple translation as meaning identical tapes
19:48:21 <orbitaldecay> I just wanted to allow simple translations between languages that use different models
19:48:28 <orbitaldecay> like maybe one language doesn't have a tape and another does
19:48:40 <orbitaldecay> there could still be simple translations between them
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19:57:49 <zzo38> How common are using C programs on non-IEEE computers?
19:58:32 <imode> probably ones without floating point support.
19:58:49 <fizzie> Well, or using a non-IEEE-754 floating point format.
19:58:50 <orbitaldecay> in that case super common, most 8 and 16 bit chips don't have floating point support
20:00:18 <fizzie> SDCC's (emulated) floating point routines are non-IEEE.
20:00:23 <orbitaldecay> on those architectures floating point is simulated i software
20:00:57 <fizzie> They're "IEEE-ish", but don't support e.g. subnormal numbers.
20:01:52 <zzo38> OK, although I suppose it is not needed to port TeXnicard to non-IEEE computers, since TeXnicard is intended for 32-bit or 64-bit computers, not 8-bit and 16-bits.
20:03:04 <orbitaldecay> Well, what does the C standard say about floats and doubles? If the C standard guarantees them to behave like IEEE floats and doubles, then I'd assume the compiler will take care of it.
20:03:25 <rain1> I will need to study the discharged candidates on the discussion page tommorow
20:03:31 <fizzie> There's an appendix for IEEE floats and doubles, which the implementation can indicate by defining a macro.
20:03:47 <b_jonas> zzo38: common if you count it when you deliberately enable some aggressive settings or optimization flags for compilation units, such as the runtime option to not generate and read denormals on x86_64 to speed up operations that would generate such numbers
20:03:49 <zzo38> (And, I am not sure that SQLite works on non-IEEE computers anyways)
20:03:52 <fizzie> Other than that, the standard just gives a very abstract model, that can be implemented by a non-2 radix.
20:04:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: that still uses numbers formatted as IEEE float, just not the IEEE float rules for arithmetic operations
20:04:37 <b_jonas> so I don't know if you count that
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20:05:30 <fizzie> "An implementation that defines __STDC_IEC_559__ shall conform to the specifications in this annex."
20:06:20 <zzo38> b_jonas: Well, my program only cares that the "float" type is a 32-bit floating point and that it is either IEEE or big-endian (or both), and that if you write to a union with a int and float as a int and read it back as a float, that it can be read. (The reason for this confusion is presumably a bug in Adobe Distiller, which is software I don't even use.)
20:07:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: that part about the union sounds like it could be false on modern enough gcc because of how C handles unions, but I'm not quite sure
20:07:47 <zzo38> (Or possibly some other software from Adobe; I am not sure which.)
20:08:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: wait, what do you do with the union?
20:08:13 <fizzie> Use of union for type punning is sort of sanctioned.
20:08:25 <zzo38> Merely write a int to it and read back a float from it; the union is not used after that.
20:08:25 <b_jonas> read it back as a float and then read the union?
20:08:37 <b_jonas> I have no idea how the C rules work for that so I'd just avoid that
20:08:54 <b_jonas> as for float being 32-bit IEEE float format, that's probably true everywhere
20:09:32 <fizzie> b_jonas: There's a footnote about how it should work. "If the member used to read the contents of a union object is not the same as the member last used to store a value in the object, the appropriate part of the object representation of the value is reinterpreted as an object representation in the new type as described in 6.2.6 (a process sometimes called 'type punning')."
20:09:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: could you use memcpy for that instead? that definitely works and is usually optimized away, while I'm not sure about the union
20:10:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: also is this a C program or a C++ program?
20:10:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: I really don't understand the rules, and I suggest memcpy instead of a union
20:11:05 <b_jonas> but it's possible that a union is safe too
20:11:38 <zzo38> Search for "#define obj_ufloat" in http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui/artifact/39edd63855a81b2b
20:12:14 <zzo38> On a non-IEEE computer, the floating number is stored using the native order.
20:12:42 <fizzie> Yeah, if you want you could do that with memcpy.
20:13:28 <fizzie> `float f; memcpy(&f, &(int){x}, sizeof (int)); f;` or suchlike. But I do think the union's allowed as well.
20:13:30 <HackEso> float? No such file or directory
20:13:36 <fizzie> HackEso: Don't you start.
20:14:11 <fizzie> Actually, I guess you could do it entirely with compound literals, thanks to memcpy returning dest. :)
20:14:56 <fizzie> As in `*(float *)memcpy(&(float){0}, &(int){x}, sizeof (int))`.
20:16:11 <b_jonas> fizzie: is that compound literal actually valid in C?
20:16:33 <fizzie> Should be. In C99 and above.
20:16:45 <zzo38> Yes, I could use memcpy, although I did it this way, and the quoted footnote would suggest that it could work. Although that isn't the point I am trying to make anyways, which is rather the Adobe bug (despite none of Adobe's software is in use here).
20:17:56 <fizzie> I like `&(T){x}` over `(T[]){x}` when it's "conceptually" a pointer to a single object rather than an array of length 1, though they are equivalent.
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20:20:50 <zzo38> I also don't know if possibly someone else might find the set of macros in the code I linked to to be useful in your own programs too maybe
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21:35:04 <tswett[m]> I'm pondrin' what Haskell would look like if we assumed it took place in the category of abelian groups.
21:35:32 <tswett[m]> There'd be a total function z :: forall a. a.
21:36:23 <tswett[m]> And another total function p :: forall a. a -> a -> a, which would be commutative and associative with z as the identity.
21:36:46 <tswett[m]> And n :: forall a. a -> a, the inverse for p.
21:40:27 <tswett[m]> Of course, the category of abelian groups isn't cartesian closed, so... good luck with currying.
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23:11:38 <Train> I've got the instruction pointers running in parallel, after almost 10 hours of debugging.
23:15:34 <Train> The data pointers were being initialised to the position of the # character, but so were the instruction pointers, so I ended up with hundreds of pointers even for simple, 9 byte programs.
23:16:41 <Train> I needed to do some "sorcery" with the arrays to make the data pointer start at the split and the instruction pointer start at the character immediately to the right mod the length of the program[0].
23:17:17 <Train> zzo38, here's a demo of the splitting character #.
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23:20:21 <Train> I'm still implementing e and f. I'll send you the finished documentation.
23:22:53 <Train> Implemented them, after 10 hours and 22 minutes of debugging.
23:24:23 <Train> And the interpreter is only 4952 bytes.
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23:26:47 <Train> All programs that worked in TrainCode v1 work in TrainCode v2, with a few specific exceptions.
23:26:55 <Train> So the quine still works.
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