←2012-01 2012-02 2012-03→ ↑2012 ↑all
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02:51:32 <Sgeo> kallisti has been updated.
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02:56:21 <kallisti> I see that the topic madness has gotten out of hand.
02:56:48 <monqy> im tears
02:59:19 <ion> the
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04:51:01 <itidus21> wow lambdabot is amazing
04:52:24 <monqy> hi
04:55:02 <quintopia> hi monqy. hi itidus21.
04:55:29 <itidus21> hi quintopia. hi monqy.
04:55:32 <monqy> hi
06:13:11 <oklopol> LOOK AT MY LAMBDABOT
06:13:34 <quintopia> my what a big lambdabot you have
06:13:55 <oklopol> thank you. but i would never sell my lambdabot so fuck off.
06:13:58 <oklopol> asshole.
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06:15:53 <quintopia> my what a big asshole you have
06:15:56 <oklopol> why doesn't Do have a wiki page?
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06:16:11 <quintopia> it surely do
06:19:38 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p5855779463.txt here's the spec if someone wants to
07:02:36 <oklopol> fizzie: o
07:03:08 <oklopol> or anyone who can call finland, i need to find my cellphone :D
07:19:52 <itidus21> considers typing (2^43,112,609)-1 in unary
07:20:29 <monqy> hi
07:21:19 <itidus21> 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111hi monqy1111111111111111111111111111[...]
07:21:45 <itidus21> 11111sorry this act is taking more time than i expected11111111111[...]
07:36:04 <fizzie> oklopol: Is this still RELEVANT. (I was getting to wurk.)
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09:56:25 <oklopol> fizzie: nope, it was hidden in my bed
09:56:35 <oklopol> (no idea how that's possible)
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10:03:02 <fizzie> I dreamed I bought an iPad. That's weird.
10:04:31 <Jafet> Freud something something
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10:55:09 <fizzie> Gbleh, peak low in Foreca's five-day forecast for here in Espoo is -27 °C. Brrr, winter.
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12:06:09 <ais523> happy mailman mailing list reminders day!
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12:15:34 <fizzie> Funny-story-time. I was google-mapsing the campus of this place I'll be visiting, and one building was marked "IMEC". Thought I'd click on it to see what it's about. Before I could click, however, up popped a tooltip that said only "The worst cafeteria in the world.", nothing else.
12:15:45 <fizzie> Apparently that's one of the "Google Reviews" for the place.
12:15:57 <fizzie> "8 out of 40 people found this review helpful."
12:15:59 <ais523> heh
12:21:28 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Convert
12:21:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh dear god how can this thing possibly work.
12:21:49 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, you know the horrors of MW template markup better than I.
12:22:37 <ais523> oh, it's just {{convert}}
12:22:53 <ais523> let's just say it's tagged {{esoteric}} for a reason
12:23:18 <ais523> but the template itself is basically just a jump table
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12:57:37 <oerjan> 07:19:52: <itidus21> considers typing (2^43,112,609)-1 in unary <-- you realize even binary will take months?
12:58:06 <itidus21> only months?
12:58:28 <itidus21> i guess its then a function of calculating the time to hold down the key
12:58:36 <itidus21> haha
12:58:55 <oerjan> 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
12:59:08 <oerjan> that was 5 seconds on my keyboard
12:59:19 <oerjan> i guess there could be some network delay as well
12:59:48 <oerjan> > length "000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000"
12:59:49 <lambdabot> 126
13:00:11 <oerjan> > 43112609/25/86400
13:00:12 <lambdabot> 19.959541203703704
13:00:17 <oerjan> oh hm
13:00:23 <oerjan> actually just 20 days
13:00:32 <oerjan> SO GO AHEAD, THEN
13:00:34 <oklopol> what does (2^43,112,609) mean
13:00:45 <oerjan> oklopol: freaky english notation
13:01:04 <itidus21> (2^43,112,609) MINUS ONE
13:01:31 <oerjan> given the accuracy of my keyboard measurement, i don't think i'm going to worry about the minus one.
13:01:37 <oklopol> oh 2^(43,112,609)-1 where , means
13:01:42 <oklopol> ?
13:01:59 <Deewiant> Thousands separator
13:02:06 <oerjan> yes, oklopol. how cosmopolitanly realized of you.
13:02:07 <itidus21> heheheh
13:02:13 <fizzie> The standard AT keyboard controller can go up to 30.0 characters per second; though systems can nowadays do any sort of rate in software.
13:02:16 <oklopol> Deewiant: yeah so it means
13:02:16 <fizzie> > 5*30
13:02:17 <lambdabot> 150
13:02:22 <fizzie> That's not too far off from 126.
13:02:38 <itidus21> i was aware when i typed it that i should have just typed 43112609 to avoid regional diffeercnes
13:02:51 <itidus21> but i didn't cos i don't know those regional differences
13:03:11 <oerjan> well 126 means essentially 25
13:03:26 <itidus21> anyway oerjan, 20 days is because i came up with the efficient method of pre-calculating the key holding time
13:03:49 <itidus21> ok you worked out the details
13:03:53 <itidus21> credit where its due
13:04:03 <itidus21> accuracy is another problem
13:04:21 <itidus21> since it has to be exactly the right number of keypresses
13:05:24 <fizzie> The AT rate list is nonuniformly spaced; it's 2.0, 2.1, 2.3, 2.5, 2.7, 3.0, 3.3, 3.7, 4.0, 4.3, 4.6, 5.0, 5.5, 6.0, 6.7, 7.5, 8.0, 8.6, 9.2, 10.0, 10.9, 12.0, 13.3, 15.0, 16.0, 17.1, 18.5, 20.0, 21.8, 24.0, 26.7, 30.0. (But 1/rate is sort-of piecewise linear.)
13:05:39 <fizzie> Sparc systems go up to 50 cps, I remember that being SO FAST.
13:05:47 <fizzie> That's, like, ten days.
13:06:42 <oerjan> itidus21: tricky. but i guess editors can keep track of that.
13:07:02 <oerjan> assuming you find one which can handle lines that long.
13:07:23 <itidus21> oerjan: when i envisioned the idea initially i imagined the painstaking anxiety caused by looking at a stream of 1s and keeping count
13:07:50 <oerjan> itidus21: ah, inventing a new spot in hell, i take.
13:08:35 <oerjan> "OK, your punishment isn't eternal, you just have to type this number, correctly."
13:08:44 <itidus21> :))
13:08:54 <itidus21> but sir.. this keyboard.. only has 1 ley
13:08:58 <itidus21> ^key
13:09:24 <itidus21> hmm i could allow for backspace and enter keys also
13:09:25 <itidus21> 3 keys
13:09:49 <itidus21> oh and left and right keys
13:09:52 <oerjan> "no backspace, although if you make a mistake you may reboot"
13:10:31 <itidus21> and then i paused for thought
13:11:09 <itidus21> i wonder if useful unary lambda calculus programs correlate with some category of numbers
13:13:08 <fizzie> perl -e 'print "0"x43112609;' > tmp.tmp; vi tmp.tmp; => "tmp.tmp" [noeol] 1L, 43112609C; but $ moves the cursor to column 43112609 with no problems, though it did spend quite a while thinking when loading the file.
13:13:35 <fizzie> And, uh, moving is quite laggy.
13:14:00 <oerjan> well a useful lambda calculus program pretty much has to begin with (, so what does that imply for the unary version?
13:14:44 <fizzie> "File tmp.txt is large (41MB), really open? (y or n)" -- heh, Emacs is being careful.
13:14:47 <itidus21> incidentally http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_known_prime_number :P
13:15:13 <oerjan> ah right, it looked a little mersenny
13:15:17 <fizzie> Opens rather fast, though there's an almost-second delay when moving the cursor.
13:15:32 <itidus21> so yes.. you don't have to feel foolish for taking an interest in it
13:15:46 <ais523> fizzie: why are you editing a text file of 43112609 zeroes anyway? something to do with Unary?
13:16:37 <itidus21> oerjan: i don't have a clue really..... to me unary lambda calc is a magical idea
13:17:02 <oerjan> ais523: how did you get switched with Vorpal
13:17:03 <ais523> what's that esolang that's Unlambda except with no combinators?
13:17:14 <ais523> oerjan: Vorpal's started acting like me, anyway
13:17:44 <Phantom_Hoover> He has?
13:17:46 <ais523> and the scrollback only implies that itidus21 is trying to enter 2^43112609-1, not why
13:17:53 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I didn't mean to say that
13:17:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I haven't actually seen him in forever.
13:18:01 <ais523> I meant "has Vorpal started acting like me, then?"
13:18:03 <oerjan> ais523: he didn't explain that, i think
13:18:08 <ais523> and got confused midsentence
13:18:12 <itidus21> laughs aloud @ and the scrollback[...]
13:18:13 <oerjan> except with his last link maybe
13:18:27 <itidus21> the last link certainly didn't explain it!
13:18:36 <itidus21> nothing on earth could explain it
13:19:04 <fizzie> oerjan: According to Mathematics(TM), ais523 is the third-most-likely author for Vorpal-written text. (The first two most likely are Vorpal, and AnMaster.)
13:19:16 <itidus21> but on the last link theres a hint
13:19:18 <ais523> fizzie: is that just line length analysis?
13:19:34 <itidus21> it lists the number as having 12,978,189 digits
13:19:59 <itidus21> and i guess i thought to myself, that would be even worse in unary
13:20:06 <ais523> itidus21: careful with that @, it's going to get search-replaced some time in the future
13:20:09 <fizzie> ais523: No, it's from that thing which I pasted earlier, using the mixture-of-bernoulli models with different sort of binary features related to word length/line length/personal-pronoun-use/punctuation/whatever.
13:20:15 <ais523> ah, OK
13:20:18 <ais523> I think I might have missed that
13:20:32 <ais523> who has the highest whatever score?
13:20:40 <itidus21> ahh ... so the number will have 2^43112609-1 unary digits !?!
13:20:43 <fizzie> It's the thing where you correctly divined that the "’m not in a mood for non-trivial INTERCAL program
13:20:48 <fizzie> s" was your comment.
13:20:51 <ais523> aha
13:21:03 <itidus21> i was thinking about how mathematical notation saves an awful lot of typing
13:21:05 <fizzie> Also apparently pasting from the slides was a bad idea, and what's that silly-apostrophe doing there.
13:21:58 <ais523> fizzie: looks like you pasted from a PDF
13:22:00 <itidus21> a kind of extension of some old chinese story about writing number 1 with one line, 2 with two lines, 3 with three lines, then someone asks him to write the character for 10,000
13:22:08 <fizzie> I did, yes.
13:22:10 <itidus21> and he goes on trying to write ten thousand lines
13:22:17 <ais523> i.e. most of the characters are right, but special characters are swapped with different special characters, and line breaks appear in entirely the wrong places
13:22:19 <fizzie> ais523: For your comments, the three most likely authors are ais523, AnMaster, and oerjan, in that order.
13:22:30 <ais523> fizzie: hmm
13:22:35 <ais523> did you normalize away ais523_?
13:22:54 <itidus21> basically that the exponent notation is more than syntactic sugar
13:22:56 <fizzie> In the sense of disregarding it. This was a simple thing.
13:22:59 <ais523> (I'm actually curious as to whether I talk differently as ais523 and ais523_; I use the nicks in different circumstances)
13:23:01 <ais523> ah, OK
13:23:09 <itidus21> but makes some numbers expressible which would not be readily cognizeable in unary form
13:23:25 <fizzie> I had AnMaster and Vorpal as separate entities, as well as ehird, elliott and alise.
13:23:55 <fizzie> And it correctly "found" those groupings, in the sense that they had relatively speaking highest mutual confusion potential there.
13:24:29 <fizzie> Though oerjan and oklopol are very much like one person, too. (Suspicious?)
13:25:06 <itidus21> ok in other words, its a lot easier to reason about 2^43112609-1 apples by using the text "2^43112609-1" than it is to actually produce 2^43112609-1 apples
13:25:34 <ais523> `addquote <itidus21> ok in other words, its a lot easier to reason about 2^43112609-1 apples by using the text "2^43112609-1" than it is to actually produce 2^43112609-1 apples
13:25:46 <HackEgo> 806) <itidus21> ok in other words, its a lot easier to reason about 2^43112609-1 apples by using the text "2^43112609-1" than it is to actually produce 2^43112609-1 apples
13:26:25 <oerjan> fizzie: eek
13:26:46 <itidus21> fizzie: i assume this room is not like that.
13:26:53 <itidus21> there will be hell to pay if it is
13:27:04 <oerjan> like what
13:27:17 <itidus21> like counting to 2^43112609-1 in unary
13:27:21 <itidus21> oh
13:27:31 <itidus21> like people using multiple personas to chat
13:28:22 <Phantom_Hoover> <fizzie> I had AnMaster and Vorpal as separate entities, as well as ehird, elliott and alise.
13:28:36 <ais523> `quote itidus
13:28:40 <HackEgo> 470) <itidus20> to assume that someone can be described by a rule without exception... is to assume they are omnipotent <oklopol> for instance stones are omnipotent, as they don't do anything, without exception \ 493) <itidus20> monqy: last night in my dreams I saw a false photo album of my childhood... looking ghostly \ 494) <monqy> itidus20: i saw a dancing cgi skeleton named malaria. i danced and played with him.
13:28:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Have you compared Phantom_Hoover, Phantom__Hoover and Phantom___Hoover to see if the stress of my router hating me takes its toll?
13:29:20 <itidus21> 2^43112609-1 was the first discovered "prime number of over 10 million digits."
13:29:25 <oerjan> `? Phantom___Hoover
13:29:29 <HackEgo> Phantom___Hoover ? ¯\(°_o)/¯
13:29:42 <oerjan> argh
13:29:45 <oerjan> `? Phantom___Hoover
13:29:48 <HackEgo> Phantom___Hoover sucks at ghosting himself.
13:30:01 <oerjan> oh right, it wasn't that command i fixed the issue for
13:30:47 <itidus21> oklopol: but stones decay eventually
13:31:02 <itidus21> :>
13:31:14 <oerjan> it's a little crazy that they haven't found any efficient-to-calculate formula which gives unbounded prime numbers
13:31:25 <itidus21> i forget where that conversation went
13:31:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Prime numbers in general are crazy.
13:31:34 <fizzie> Prime numbers are a little crazy... aw, snap.
13:32:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, they have such a stupidly simple method of generation, and yet they don't submit to any easy form of analysis at all.
13:32:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Everything we have is vague asymptoty stuff.
13:32:24 <oerjan> you know there are heaps of them, and approximately how many, but pinning down one of large size is still a hard problem
13:32:40 <oerjan> *how many in each interval
13:33:20 <fizzie> Also there's the prime directive, which forbids you from bringing information about large-valued primes into societies that have not yet found primes of equal magnitude. Or something like that, anyway.
13:37:20 <oerjan> i saw yesterday something relevant at http://www.mezzacotta.net/postcard/about.php, but you'll have to reload until you see something about WOW! signal, as i have no idea how to link to a specific one
13:37:26 <oerjan> and it's too long to paste
13:40:30 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/VdbI in case someone doesn't feel like reloading.
13:40:54 <ais523> fizzie: thanks: I was trying to find it by reloading but haven't yet
13:41:22 <fizzie> (Also there's a wikilink to the Wow! signal that got dropped by the pasteying.)
13:41:45 <oerjan> i spent a while reloading it yesterday and i'm _still_ not entirely sure i got all of them. almost sure, though.
13:44:59 <ais523> oerjan: mathematically it's impossible to ever be sure
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13:45:21 <ais523> and given that you can't even assume they all have the same probability, you can't even know the probability that you've seen them all
13:45:53 <oerjan> indeed, i got this sense some were more often than others
13:46:38 <oerjan> *frequent
13:46:38 <oerjan> of course mathematically i cannot be sure of that, either :P
13:47:25 <fizzie> Stop talking like that or you'll make me ten thousand samples to get some estimates.
13:47:38 <fizzie> s/me/me take/
13:47:39 <ais523> this is what null hypotheses were invented for!
13:47:58 <ais523> actually, if you refresh it often enough, DMM will probably get fed up with the server load and outright tell you the probabilities
13:48:02 * ais523 lateral thinking
13:48:02 <oerjan> see fizzie become the first person ever banned from mezzacotta. well i guess there will have been spammers.
13:48:26 <oerjan> i _guess_ you could also ask in the forum.
13:48:35 <fizzie> I was thinking of having a ten second interval, that's not much of a load, and will take 10k samples in a day and a bit.
13:50:13 <oerjan> i don't recall ever seeing spam on the forum, come to think of it. but then i read it in twice-weekly bursts.
13:53:05 <fizzie> Distribution at 10 samples: http://sprunge.us/BGEZ
13:53:22 <fizzie> (The value is the sha1sum of the returned page.)
13:53:51 <fizzie> Clearly 421... is three times more likely than 0b5...
13:54:11 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure there are more than 10 versions :P
13:54:29 <fizzie> I've gotten 11 versions in 20 samples.
13:56:24 <fizzie> Ooh, a 12th version.
13:56:32 <fizzie> Did you count how many you found?
13:56:50 <fizzie> Uh, now it's back to 11.
13:57:14 <fizzie> Must have been sha1sum that read an incomplete copy.
14:00:05 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/VIYV ... looks reasonably uniform so far... in fact, one might say it looks SUSPICIOUSLY uniform. Hmm.
14:02:35 <ais523> too early to tell, really
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14:03:39 <oerjan> no, i didn't count
14:16:59 <oerjan> hm, i realize i may have overestimated by confusing it with reloadings of the FAQ, as well
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14:19:01 <oerjan> fizzie: actually i cannot seem to get the 11th one :P
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14:20:36 <oerjan> oh there
14:24:07 <fizzie> If X is a uniformly distributed integer 0 .. 10, and Y the sequence formed by repeatedly sampling from X until Y contains each integer 0 .. 10 at least once, what's the expected length of Y?
14:24:30 <oerjan> aliens from Xabaduni IV; three golfers from Maine; Guernsey Comics Collective; Wow! signal; ancient Sumerian clay tablets; IP address Langerhans Islets; Edgar Planer; After representations received on behalf of; How awesome would it be if someone produced a webcomic without the comic?; John Lennon and Paul McCartney; As reviewed by TV Tropes:
14:25:00 <oerjan> the last two held out a _long_ time
14:26:19 <oerjan> hm i'm pretty sure that's a common chestnut/exercise
14:27:38 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/gUOf <- I have these eleven.
14:28:12 <fizzie> Wait, that's just 10.
14:28:20 <fizzie> Do two start similarly or something?
14:30:10 <oerjan> no, i think you are missing one of Edgar Planer or three golfers from Maine
14:30:14 <oerjan> unfortunately my descriptions don't all start at the beginning
14:31:29 <oerjan> while the other one is your "In the mid-1990s, one of the"
14:32:07 <oerjan> which i _think_ is edgar planer, which is strange since i thought i got the golfers all the time
14:32:40 <fizzie> Oh, it's just the "get the first line" grep acting up.
14:33:53 <fizzie> It starts "<i>COAP</i> started ..." and that got removed by a "remove-the-<h2>-and-<p>-lines" bit.
14:34:06 <fizzie> Because it matches ^<.
14:34:14 <oerjan> ah.
14:35:42 <fizzie> I wouldn't put it past DMM/whoever to have one extra-rare reply; let's hope my ten thousand attempts are enough for it to show up.
14:36:37 <oerjan> oh, and also
14:37:16 <oerjan> > let e 1 = 1; e n = 1 + n/(n-1) * e (n-1) in e 11
14:37:17 <lambdabot> 33.218650793650795
14:37:26 <oerjan> iirc
14:37:44 <fizzie> Okay, but why?
14:38:26 <fizzie> > let e 1 = 1; e n = 1 + n/(n-1) * e (n-1) in e 2
14:38:27 <lambdabot> 3.0
14:38:32 <fizzie> Well, it sounds so reasonable.
14:38:55 <oerjan> well your first try will always be a new item. and every try after that has (n-1)/n chance of not being the same as the first, which essentially rescales the expectation for n-1. i think.
14:40:49 <fizzie> Okay. (And what's the distribution for the length?)
14:41:09 <oerjan> heck if i know
14:45:09 <fizzie> That's all right; it doesn't count as a question anyway since I didn't formulate it in terms of balls and urns.
14:46:30 <oerjan> i'm looking at wikipedia's probability distributions template and none of them are obviously relevant.
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15:04:20 <fizzie> Just look for something that has k!/(k^k) as the first nonzero value, I'm sure it's that. :p
15:04:41 <oerjan> argh
15:05:53 <fizzie> Humorously, I tried a Google search for "k!/(k^k)" (with quotes), and the first hit is "KKK: Ku Klux Klan, this one's for you!"
15:06:01 <oerjan> geometric distribution : binomial distribution :: ? : multinomial distribution
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15:07:22 <oerjan> oh finally, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupon_collector%27s_problem
15:07:39 <oerjan> i couldn't remember the name
15:08:45 <oerjan> but it was mentioned at the bottom of the geometric distribution article
15:11:49 <oerjan> fizzie: ^
15:13:54 <fizzie> Very good. I won't subtract points for the fact that there's only E(T) and Var(T) there, not a simple equation for P(T=t), on grounds of there also being a link to a nice generating-function approach for getting those E(T) and Var(T).
15:14:20 <ais523> hmm, mezzacotta's comic generator seems to have got better
15:14:36 <ais523> in particular, the participants in each comic seem to react to each other now, if only at a rudimentary level
15:14:46 <oerjan> ais523: erm they always have
15:14:57 <ais523> oerjan: nah, at the very start they didn't
15:15:03 <ais523> it was just two independent conversations interleaved
15:17:07 <oerjan> if you say so. i recall them saying that they haven't made the generator possible to change without wiping out all the old comics
15:18:03 <oerjan> as in, comics that haven't been watched in a while drop out of cache and get regenerated
15:20:46 <ais523> oerjan: hmm, but they've definitely added new characters
15:20:59 <ais523> so either they just wipe out the old comics and nobody notices, or they use the old generator on previously visited comics
15:21:10 <ais523> they wouldn't have to record the comics themselves, just the fact that they existed at one time
15:21:32 <oerjan> if they changed anything, it was _very_ early.
15:22:20 <ais523> well, I was around pretty much at the start
15:22:26 <ais523> it got mentioned on-channel
15:22:30 <ais523> and then I stopped reading it for years
15:24:03 <oerjan> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/viewtopic.php?t=5891
15:24:41 <oerjan> "There's no versioning, so we can't change the algorithm, otherwise the hashes would produce different comics. Which is good and bad. Bad in that we can't improve the algorithms, good in that we can't improve the algorithms (and therefore don't spend inordinate amounts of our spare time doing so, which leaves us free to do other stuff, like Darths & Droids)."
15:25:58 <oerjan> the belief that they've added new characters _could_ just be the coupon collector's problem hitting :P
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15:27:38 <oerjan> the only exception i recall is that they once changed it entirely for April 1.
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15:28:17 <oerjan> he's alive!
15:29:02 <oerjan> or at least his client.
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17:32:22 <Vorpal> ...how can a display driver download be 148 MB? That is quite insane.
17:33:21 <Slereah_> Because software programmers have stopped caring, maybe
17:33:29 <Vorpal> possibly
17:33:30 <Slereah_> "Everyone has awesome computers now, no need to bother!"
17:34:02 <Vorpal> well, the computer I'm installing it on is indeed awesome
17:35:16 <Vorpal> btw that is the windows display drivers, clicking custom installation reveals that the control panel component of it takes 150 MB of disk space.
17:35:50 <Slereah_> I guess the same reason that firefox is now OVER A GIGABYTE
17:35:58 <Vorpal> is it?
17:35:59 <Vorpal> wtf
17:36:12 <Slereah_> Wait
17:36:16 <Slereah_> It's not!
17:36:17 <Vorpal> hm ubuntu claims 40 MB
17:36:23 <Slereah_> Why was it on my old PC
17:36:23 <Vorpal> for installed size
17:36:28 <Slereah_> (I just reinstalled windows)
17:36:33 <Slereah_> Because EVERYTHING WAS SLOW
17:36:36 <Slereah_> Maybe that is why!
17:36:40 <Vorpal> Slereah_, that is a windows problem :P
17:36:50 <Slereah_> Firefox was at an installed size of 1.20 GB or so
17:36:59 <Slereah_> Now it's 38 MB!
17:37:11 <Slereah_> I don't even know
17:37:25 <Slereah_> I guess I could go with some lame "I probably got some malwares" excuse
17:37:33 <Slereah_> But 1 GB sounds like a lot even for that
17:37:48 <Vorpal> I blame it being windows
17:37:59 <Slereah_> For 1GB I would hope at least to be monitored by the FBI
17:38:08 <Slereah_> Well I'm on windows now, and it's not!
17:38:24 <Vorpal> Slereah_, the other day windows decided that the experience index thingy was up to date but it refused to show the value
17:38:29 <Vorpal> until after a reboot
17:38:58 <Vorpal> that was 64-bit win7 pro btw
17:39:03 <Gregor> Hey folks I made an awesome new whatever it is that I make go download it it's 15GB
17:39:32 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm, almost as large as my last panorama ;)
17:40:28 <Vorpal> (actually, I can't upload the panoramas I make as I would like them, I have to apply jpeg compression to get them down to reasonable sizes of 20-30 MB...)
17:41:23 <Gregor> So I bought a pair of wireless headphones because I keep on breaking headphones by stepping on the wires 'til I break something.
17:41:35 <Vorpal> (there was one recently that when saved as a tiff with deflate compression (which is what hugin outputs) was about 370 MB)
17:41:38 <Gregor> I was trying to figure out how to network the audio so I could just leave the base station attached to my desktop (since moving it defeats the purpose)
17:41:52 <Gregor> I eventually discovered it's easier to network video, even while playing a movie, than audio.
17:41:53 <Gregor> wtf.
17:42:00 <Vorpal> Gregor, err?
17:42:14 <Vorpal> how do you mean it is easier to do network audio than audio?
17:42:28 <Gregor> <Gregor> I eventually discovered it's easier to network VIDEO, even while playing a movie, than audio.
17:42:36 <Vorpal> oh wait
17:42:38 <Vorpal> misread
17:42:58 <Vorpal> btw, I'm curious, how is the sound quality with wireless headphones?
17:43:06 <Vorpal> (are they bluetooth based or?)
17:43:38 <Vorpal> Gregor, ^
17:44:49 <Gregor> They're RF and probably quite interceptable, but the sound quality has been fine. I noticed I had to turn up the audio all the way on the desktop and turn it down to a reasonable level on the headphones or I start to get static, but it's not noticeable once the levels are adjusted properly.
17:45:03 <Vorpal> hm
17:45:04 <Gregor> Sometimes when there's no other sound I can hear a bit of interference.
17:45:19 <Vorpal> that would annoy the hell out of me
17:45:37 <Vorpal> what about battery time?
17:46:36 <Gregor> I've only had them for a day, and they recharge in the base station so I don't really have any basis for judgement.
17:46:46 <Gregor> They just have two rechargeable AAA batteries.
17:47:31 <Vorpal> ah
17:48:48 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm you know the power connectors on modern apple laptops? they should use that for headphone cables...
17:49:52 <Gregor> I feel that both ends are the problem for me. I step on the damned cable while I'm wearing them ... and my cat attacks the cable too ...
17:50:01 <Vorpal> oh cats
17:50:02 <Vorpal> right
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18:05:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Nvidia's "unified driver" is big partially because it supports so many different cards. But of course also partially because bloatiness.
18:06:16 <fizzie> Also cats and headphone cables are indeed not a good equation.
18:06:54 <fizzie> Vorpal: Incidentally, someone ported robotfindskitten to that Lego Mindstorm NXT thing. http://robotfindskitten.org/aw.cgi?main=news.rfk
18:07:04 <fizzie> Based on the name, someone Finnish. Or at least of Finnish ancestry.
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18:19:22 <Slereah_> Hey
18:19:32 <Slereah_> You know what the worst error message is?
18:19:41 <Slereah_> "Can't move this file because the filename is too long"
18:19:53 <Slereah_> When you're moving a folder with a few thousand files in it
18:19:57 <Slereah_> It can get annoying
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18:41:54 <fizzie> @tell oerjan At the moment, when 1640 samples have been taken, given the null hypothesis that the 11 variants are uniformly distributed, according to Pearson's chi-squared test, the p-value is 0.42, i.e. the deviation is not statistically significant. (But that's frequentist talk!)
18:41:54 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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19:38:57 <Ngevd> Hello!
19:39:54 <tswett> Hi.
19:40:38 <Ngevd> My internet connection is rather slow
19:42:38 <fizzie> Fortunately, there's nothing useful in the Internet either.
19:43:02 <Ngevd> Although apparently stable?
19:43:16 <Ngevd> @ping
19:43:17 <lambdabot> pong
19:46:04 <Ngevd> It's been over a minute, I suspect I may have lost connection
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20:41:14 -!- oerjan has set topic: ,[.,]!elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY..
20:42:30 <oerjan> @messages
20:42:31 <lambdabot> fizzie said 2h 36s ago: At the moment, when 1640 samples have been taken, given the null hypothesis that the 11 variants are uniformly distributed, according to Pearson's chi-squared test, the p-
20:42:31 <lambdabot> value is 0.42, i.e. the deviation is not statistically significant. (But that's frequentist talk!)
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20:46:28 <oerjan> <Vorpal> (actually, I can't upload the panoramas I make as I would like them, I have to apply jpeg compression to get them down to reasonable sizes of 20-30 MB...)
20:47:07 <oerjan> wasn't someone around here experimenting with lossless settings for some common image or video compression? i think maybe pikhq
20:47:42 <oerjan> it was years ago, though
20:48:05 <oerjan> and i think the conclusion was it wasn't half bad
20:50:43 * quintopia halps oerjan
20:51:03 <oerjan> how very nice
20:51:20 <oerjan> conclusion: people get nicer when you murder them in their sleep.
20:52:08 <quintopia> yeah that zombie thing was way off
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20:52:31 <Ngevd> Just written a quick Dupdog interpreter in Haskell
20:53:06 <Ngevd> The main function:
20:53:17 <Ngevd> main = runProg True $ fmap (Prog "") $ join $ fmap (lookup . map (uncurry (flip (,)))) getEnvironment
20:53:26 <monqy> yikes
20:53:43 <Ngevd> Wait a second
20:54:13 <oerjan> Ngevd: join . fmap f is known as f =<<
20:54:15 <Ngevd> main = runProg True $ fmap (Prog "") $ join $ fmap (maybe getContents readFile . lookup . map (uncurry (flip (,)))) getEnvironment
20:54:25 <Ngevd> oerjan, that's probably handy
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20:57:20 <oerjan> @pl join $ fmap (maybe getContents readFile . lookup . map (uncurry (flip (,)))) getEnvironment
20:57:21 <lambdabot> maybe getContents readFile . lookup . map (uncurry (flip (,))) =<< getEnvironment
20:57:44 <oerjan> :t lookup
20:57:45 <lambdabot> forall a b. (Eq a) => a -> [(a, b)] -> Maybe b
20:58:19 <oerjan> @hoogle getEnvironment
20:58:20 <lambdabot> System.Environment getEnvironment :: IO [(String, String)]
20:58:20 <lambdabot> System.Posix.Env getEnvironment :: IO [(String, String)]
20:58:20 <lambdabot> System.Posix.Env getEnvironmentPrim :: IO [String]
20:59:39 <Ngevd> main = runProg True $ fmap (Prog "") $ maybe getContents readFile . lookup "" . map (uncurry (flip (,))) =<< getEnvironment
20:59:43 <Ngevd> I made a few typos as well
20:59:51 <oerjan> ah.
21:00:07 <oerjan> erm, why would you lookup "" in that
21:00:28 <Ngevd> Because that finds a key without a value
21:01:18 <oerjan> why in the world would you use that to get a filename?
21:01:23 <Ngevd> Because getEnvironment should return something like IO [("wrap","157"),("filename")]
21:01:28 <Ngevd> Because I'm magical
21:01:37 <Ngevd> And don't have a clue what I'm doing
21:02:08 <oerjan> what is wrong with using getArgs
21:02:14 <oerjan> @hoogle getArgs
21:02:14 <lambdabot> System.Environment getArgs :: IO [String]
21:02:15 <lambdabot> Graphics.UI.GLUT.Initialization getArgsAndInitialize :: IO (String, [String])
21:02:51 <oerjan> lessee
21:03:22 <oerjan> :t head . (++ [getContents]) . map readFile
21:03:23 <lambdabot> [FilePath] -> IO String
21:03:30 <oerjan> :t head . (++ [getContents]) . map readFile =<< getArgs
21:03:31 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `getArgs'
21:03:34 <oerjan> argh
21:03:41 <oerjan> :t head . (++ [getContents]) . map readFile =<< System.Environment.getArgs
21:03:42 <lambdabot> IO String
21:04:11 <monqy> uhh
21:04:29 <oerjan> monqy: PROBLEM?
21:04:35 <monqy> yes
21:04:45 <oerjan> naturally i'd use a case in practice myself
21:06:33 <oerjan> oh hm you have other flags too
21:07:33 <Ngevd> It doesn't handle ending very well
21:07:57 <fizzie> [("wrap","157"),("filename")] sounds like quite a "special" sort of list.
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21:09:05 <oerjan> come back you scoundrel
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21:09:12 <oerjan> Ngevd: are you trying to parse the command line? because that is _not_ what getEnvironment does.
21:09:35 <Ngevd> No, I'm trying to parse the arguments?
21:09:39 <fizzie> I suppose there's something getopt-like in there too?
21:09:41 <fizzie> @hoogle getopt
21:09:41 <lambdabot> System.Console.GetOpt getOpt :: ArgOrder a -> [OptDescr a] -> [String] -> ([a], [String], [String])
21:09:41 <lambdabot> System.Console.GetOpt getOpt' :: ArgOrder a -> [OptDescr a] -> [String] -> ([a], [String], [String], [String])
21:09:41 <lambdabot> System.Console.GetOpt module System.Console.GetOpt
21:10:05 <Ngevd> If a file name is provided in the arguments, it loads the file, otherwise it uses the command line
21:10:07 <oerjan> Ngevd: the command line arguments? my point still remains.
21:10:25 <Ngevd> Hmm
21:10:54 <oerjan> and yes, getOpt can be used for this.
21:10:56 <Ngevd> Oh dear god you're right
21:11:01 <fizzie> oerjan: Maybe if he wants the program to be called as "wrap=123 thingie" instead of "thingie --wrap 123".
21:11:15 <oerjan> fizzie: that would be _possible_ of course :P
21:11:30 <oerjan> but i had a hunch that's not what he wanted.
21:11:58 <Ngevd> fizzie, that is exactly what I wanted
21:12:03 <Ngevd> My brain is weird
21:12:27 <oerjan> oh O_O
21:12:34 <fizzie> Here 'thingie' was your program, incidentally.
21:12:59 <oerjan> _not_ the dupdog program, but the interpreter
21:13:12 <fizzie> Right.
21:13:13 <Ngevd> Oh
21:13:20 <Ngevd> That's not what I want
21:13:22 <fizzie> I'm not exactly sure how you wanted the filename thing to go in, since I doubt you can set "the environment variable with no name".
21:13:40 <Ngevd> fizzie, I did with my latin vocab program?
21:13:48 <Ngevd> Using getArgs
21:13:50 <oerjan> fizzie: um he's looking up for no _value_, not name.
21:14:14 <fizzie> oerjan: Oh, there's a flip in there somewhere? Okay then; though I suppose there might be several.
21:14:33 <fizzie> getArgs sounds like it has absolutely zero things in common with the environment variables.
21:14:38 * oerjan is still confused what Ngevd actually wants.
21:14:39 <oerjan> Ngevd: how would you write a complete command line for calling your interpreter with wrap and filename settings?
21:14:51 <oerjan> *would you like to write
21:14:59 <Ngevd> dupdog hello.dupdog wrap=157
21:15:05 <monqy> why do you want that??
21:15:13 <Ngevd> BECAUSE I AM MAD
21:15:19 <Ngevd> And it made sense at the time
21:15:20 <monqy> ok
21:15:25 <Ngevd> And I don't know what the convention is
21:15:36 <Ngevd> ...What's the convention?
21:15:39 <oerjan> Ngevd: hm ok. dupdog hello.dupdog --wrap 157 would be easier to convinve getOpt to do, i think.
21:15:46 <oerjan> *c
21:16:00 <Ngevd> Okay
21:16:05 <kmc> the 'cmdargs' package is a much nicer way to parse command line arguments in haskell
21:16:07 <kmc> compared to getopt
21:16:22 <oerjan> always a package :P
21:17:03 <kmc> it's well documented too
21:17:23 <fizzie> Plain getArgs would give you ["hello.dupdog", "wrap=157"], which isn't too hard to parsemate, while I suppose getEnvironment would give you something like [("PATH", "/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/games"), ("HOSTNAME", "something"), ("HOME", "/home/something"), ...].
21:17:47 <Ngevd> I misunderstood the function and never actually tested it
21:18:10 <oerjan> ["hello.dupdog", "--wrap", "157"] is even easier to parse
21:18:16 <kmc> also «IO [("wrap","157"),("filename")]» is not a thing ;P
21:19:37 <fizzie> Anyhoo, dashes is indeed the most common convention. Though there certainly are commands that take "foo=bar" options. 'dd' comes to mind.
21:20:03 <fizzie> Everyone hates dd for being different, though.
21:20:41 <oerjan> (that needs only pattern matching, no breaking up of substrings. well i guess you _could_ do 'w':'r':'a':'p':'=':wrapping)
21:20:48 <Ngevd> kmc, I was trying for IO [("wrap","157"),("filenam","")]
21:24:19 <kmc> that is also not a thing
21:24:42 <kmc> IO is a type constructor, not a data constructor
21:24:54 <kmc> (except at the GHC implementation level, but that data constructor does something completely different and unreasonable)
21:25:18 <kmc> a value of type (IO T) is not a value of type T "tainted" by the fact that it's "in IO"
21:25:49 <kmc> it's a description of an imperative program which, if executed, *would* produce a value of type T
21:25:56 <kmc> there is no T inside
21:31:13 <oerjan> getOpt Permute [Option "" ["wrap"] (ReqArg id "wrapping size") "wrapping size" `fmap` getArgs
21:31:21 <oerjan> er
21:31:29 <oerjan> getOpt Permute [Option "" ["wrap"] (ReqArg id "wrapping size") "wrapping size"] `fmap` getArgs
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21:49:45 <kallisti> sometimes...
21:49:48 <kallisti> irssi is really frustrating.
21:51:18 <monqy> hi
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22:26:47 <Taneb> Just flying around to say look at this crap: http://hpaste.org/57301
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22:44:40 <oerjan> @tell Taneb er... Dupdog is not supposed to have a program pointer, you always take the first character. Also your eval' is an infinite recursion (hint: unless you are writing generic combinators, a function argument with IO type is usually a mistake.)
22:44:40 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:49:47 <oerjan> @tell Taneb also, fail "Error: check the wrapping size you gave is a valid number." is misleading - nothing will check if the number is valid by that point.
22:49:47 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:58:01 <oerjan> @tell Taneb I can see how "The next character is read" might give you that impression though - but note that (I clearly recall) the initial inspiration for dupdog was the idea of two irc bots reacting to each other's lines as entirely new commands, for which such a remembering of position doesn't make sense.
22:58:02 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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23:40:10 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Hmm, that's funny... if I calculate the chi^2-score right, after 3370 samples I could say the distribution is in fact *not* uniform, at p=0.03, i.e. that the probability for getting at least as non-uniform results if they were actually from a uniform distribution is just 0.03.
23:40:10 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:40:31 <fizzie> @tell oerjan I might be calculating it wrong, though.
23:40:31 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:41:29 <oerjan> @tell fizzie OKAY
23:41:30 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:41:48 <fizzie> Oh, uh, right, maybe the @tell bit was a bit...
23:41:48 <lambdabot> fizzie: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
23:41:56 <fizzie> Hey, I have messages!
23:42:06 <fizzie> @message
23:42:06 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages?
23:42:08 <fizzie> @messages
23:42:08 <lambdabot> oerjan said 38s ago: OKAY
23:42:21 <fizzie> Oh, it's just *you*. :( :( :(
23:42:41 <oerjan> how terrible
23:43:00 <fizzie> I'm thinking "@message" should also work, but only in the case where you actually do have a single message.
23:43:13 <oerjan> fancy
23:43:32 <oerjan> fizzie: is 3370 how much you have in total?
23:43:58 <fizzie> Yes. Well, it's 3406 now.
23:44:41 <oerjan> what's the ratio of largest to smallest item?
23:45:16 <fizzie> 1.3.
23:45:24 <oerjan> that's not overly large :P
23:45:35 <fizzie> 376/289, to be more exact.
23:45:54 <oerjan> too small to be an intended difference, me thinks
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00:01:05 <fizzie> Current counts, FWIW: http://sprunge.us/aaSI
00:01:52 <fizzie> Also fi:aasi = en:donkey.
00:03:13 <oerjan> don't be an ass about it
00:04:06 <ion> fi:perse ≠ en:per se
00:04:17 <fizzie> ^ul (^.^)aaS
00:04:17 <fungot> ((^.^))
00:05:41 <ais523> fizzie: heh, I didn't really expet your script to be running that long
00:05:45 <ais523> *expect
00:05:54 <ais523> and, hmm, that's an interesting distribution
00:06:00 <ais523> not sure if I'd expect that from a uniform distribution or not
00:06:23 <fizzie> If I compute the chi2 statistic right, you probably shouldn't.
00:07:05 <fizzie> (You should expect only three out of each hundred uniform distributions to be that out of whack.)
00:09:08 <fizzie> Of course it's still not any sort of proof. But it's a larger difference that you'd expect (in a non-mathematical sense, I haven't calculated any numbers about this) from the bias inherent in rand()%11 with RAND_MAX of 2^31-1 or whatever.
00:11:54 <fizzie> Even with just 0..32767, you'd expect 0..9 to be just 1.0003 times more common than 10, 11, which is not a difference you'd see here.
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00:42:53 <kallisti> @hoogle freeHaskell
00:42:53 <lambdabot> Foreign.Ptr freeHaskellFunPtr :: FunPtr a -> IO ()
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01:14:35 <oerjan> in Nagapattinam, Tamil Nadu, India, there is apparently a Sir Issac Newton College of education and (possibly distinct?) Sir Issac Newton Polytechnic College.
01:14:49 <oerjan> by all web evidence those are the official spellings.
01:16:44 <monqy> amazing best
01:17:45 <oerjan> i have this small personal task i occasionally take, to search wikipedia for that particular misspelling.
01:18:14 <oerjan> (you should have seen how common it was before the first time i did so :P)
01:18:45 <monqy> apparently issac is a real name and also a commune in france
01:19:01 <oerjan> yeah
01:25:20 <oerjan> http://www.sinc.in/
01:30:23 <oerjan> you don't happen to have marvel S.H.I.E.L.D. comics? i need to find out if Issac Newton is actually misspelled in those :P
01:30:50 <oerjan> or if i can change the two relevant wikipedia pages
01:31:04 * oerjan already asked on the Talk: page, mind
01:31:07 <monqy> I don't even know what those are :(
01:31:29 <oerjan> some kind of secret organization superhero comics
01:31:33 <oerjan> iiuc
01:32:45 <oerjan> also ancient, which is how Iss?aa?c Newton was a member
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01:54:09 <kallisti> lolwat someone made a dupdog thing?
01:54:57 <oerjan> someone tried to. it's not exactly finished.
01:55:23 <oerjan> misinterpreting the spec doesn't help either
01:55:34 <kallisti> having a poorly written spec doesn't help either.
01:56:24 * kallisti hasn't looked at the source, but immediately recommends not using String as the data/program representation
01:56:53 <oerjan> i've thought for a while that dupdog is like made for using ropes
01:57:29 <oerjan> that way, you could interpret it usefully even if the size of the full expansion blows up exponentially
01:58:01 <oerjan> (ropes with a reversal flag, to be precise)
02:01:38 <kallisti> yes that would be good
02:01:51 <kallisti> Data.Sequence would work well I think.
02:02:32 <oerjan> well the thing is i'm not sure if Data.Sequence has enough sharing.
02:02:45 <oerjan> and it also needs reversal added.
02:03:20 <oerjan> you want duplication to be cheap
02:03:32 <kallisti> hm yes
02:03:51 <kallisti> reversal would simply be a matter of changing which view you use, right?
02:04:12 <oerjan> hm... actually yes
02:04:27 <oerjan> since you never concat things with mismatching reversal
02:04:33 <kallisti> believe <> is something like O(min(a,b))
02:04:44 <kallisti> which isn't too bad.
02:04:59 <kallisti> but not ideal.
02:05:28 <oerjan> er shouldn't there be a log in there
02:05:51 <kallisti> oh yes
02:05:54 <kallisti> and it's ><
02:06:38 * kallisti would like to expand on the idea of dupdog but isn't sure which direction to go.
02:07:10 <oerjan> still, a rope does that particular part in constant time. but i guess the logarithm then comes back when looking at the end instead.
02:07:20 <kallisti> right
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02:08:51 <kallisti> I think reversal is a useful operation
02:08:58 <kallisti> but duplication isn't, aside from looping infinitely
02:09:05 <kallisti> in a really clumsy manner.
02:09:46 <oerjan> i'm not sure. note that duplication and then running a few commands means the two parts are no longer equal.
02:10:00 <kallisti> yes that's true.
02:11:40 <kallisti> I think one parametric command would be of value.
02:11:55 <kallisti> perhaps to control the transliteration
02:13:24 <kallisti> the simplest one I can think of would be sab, which substitutes every a to b
02:13:32 <kallisti> this would consume the entire 3-character command
02:14:36 <kallisti> I think this would make dupdog quite a bit more powerful, though I'm not sure how to quantify how.
02:15:27 <kallisti> well
02:15:30 <kallisti> it's not dupdog anymore
02:15:34 <kallisti> because obviously the semantics are different
02:15:58 <kallisti> but the idea of advancing forward in a string, with each character modifying the source code in some simple way, remains.
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04:03:19 <pikhq> Your professor might be laughably archaic if: they demand a hardcopy submission of code
04:08:16 <Sgeo> kallisti has been i[dated
04:08:18 <Sgeo> i[date
04:08:19 <Sgeo> d
04:08:21 <Sgeo> updatd
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06:19:34 <madbr> Ho man
06:20:46 <madbr> Language with: +, -, ! (C style logical not), non-deterministic
06:20:54 <madbr> Is turing complete I think
06:21:44 <madbr> with non-deterministic = in the "prolog" kind of way
06:22:25 <madbr> program flow and arrays can be hacked from the non-deterministic logic
06:27:41 <quintopia> you did it?
06:28:09 <madbr> Well, I dunno how to write an interpreter
06:28:16 <quintopia> but
06:28:18 <quintopia> wiki?
06:28:20 <madbr> more precisely I dunno how to garbage collect it
06:28:33 <quintopia> do it the prolog way?
06:28:47 <quintopia> eh
06:28:50 <quintopia> just dont
06:28:54 <madbr> quintopia : essentially it's a numeric version of this: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fatmouse
06:28:59 <quintopia> gc is an implementation detail
06:29:07 <quintopia> if you never free anything
06:29:12 <quintopia> the language will work
06:29:14 <quintopia> in theory
06:29:20 <madbr> quintopia : I'm exploring "grow only" languages
06:29:30 <quintopia> and esoteric languages are all about working in theory
06:29:37 <madbr> ie languages where you can't change the value of a variable once it's defined
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06:30:49 <madbr> so to do something like interpret a brainfuck program, you create a new copy of the BF program state on each cycle
06:31:11 <madbr> That's turing complete
06:31:48 <madbr> but if I want to do an interpreter, I'd like to be able to execute an infinite number of loops in finite memory at least
06:32:00 <madbr> that means I have to figure out how to garbage collect it
06:32:29 <madbr> problem: in a normal language, your variables eventually get dereferenced
06:32:37 <madbr> and then you can garbage collect them
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06:33:27 <SgeoN1> Can a full hard drive cause kernel panics?
06:33:28 <madbr> except in this case, how do you know a given variable can't generate any new values and can thus be collected?
06:35:44 <quintopia> gcing in fatmouse is easy: no data needs to ever be collected except the output buffer
06:36:35 <quintopia> in particular, every time a variable is consumed, all conditions in the program are checked. those that are satisfied are deleted.
06:36:38 <madbr> quintopia: then it's impossible to interpret it without leaking memory like crazy
06:36:49 <quintopia> if a variable has no conditions, it is deleted.
06:37:04 <quintopia> *consumed
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06:40:06 <quintopia> iterative conditionals just require you to keep around a short list of ranges that have been consumed. badly behaved programs could misuse this, but...garbage collection never works on badly behaved programs anyway
06:40:53 <madbr> hm
06:43:12 <madbr> hmmmm
06:43:23 <quintopia> the "array.x.x array.x-1.x-1" example might cause problems in a naive algorithm, but i can think of a way to handle such things efficiently
06:47:14 <madbr> I think I can see how it's possible
06:47:18 <quintopia> a particularly nasty one might be "a.x.y a.x-1.y-1;a.x.y a.x-2.y;a.x.y a.x.y-2;a.1.1"
06:47:26 <quintopia> a checkerboard pattern
06:48:10 <madbr> that's essentially a memory leak
06:48:19 <madbr> and an infinite loop
06:48:22 <quintopia> yep
06:48:55 <quintopia> what happens in fatmouse if the same variable is listed twice with different conditionals?
06:49:11 <quintopia> (as above)
06:50:10 <quintopia> i'm guessing it's a disjunction over the conditional sets
06:50:22 <madbr> yeah if
06:50:31 <madbr> b a
06:50:32 <madbr> b c
06:50:48 <madbr> if either a or c get defined, b gets defined too
06:50:55 <quintopia> yep makes sense
06:52:29 <quintopia> so a loop that stops looks like "a.x a.x-1 x<10;a.1"?
06:53:06 <quintopia> with, uh, suitable parens where needed?
06:54:58 <madbr> yeah
06:58:49 <madbr> night
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09:28:02 <ais523> wait that makes no sense
09:28:05 <ais523> I ssh -X to a computer
09:28:09 <ais523> try to open something in Firefox on it
09:28:14 <ais523> and it opens on my local Firefox install instead
09:28:43 <shachaf> Firefox is evil that way.
09:28:58 <ais523> it's more nonsensical than evil
09:29:52 <ais523> haha, it works the other way too
09:30:01 <ais523> if I close Firefox locally and open the remote Firefox
09:30:11 <ais523> then trying to open Firefox locally just opens a new window on the remote Firefox
09:30:44 <ion> :-)
09:31:04 <ais523> I guess the Firefox process, when started, looks for existing Firefox /windows/
09:31:10 <ais523> and when it finds them, signals them to do what it was trying to do
09:31:19 <ais523> rather than looking for existing Firefox /processes/, which would make more sense
09:32:03 <ais523> this is the first time I realised that sshing into the computer lab downstairs to print something made more sense than physically going there
09:32:18 <ais523> but I'm annoyed that I can't browse the web meanwhile
09:32:30 <fizzie> ISTR that there was a workaround, though. (I've used a remote Firefox sometimes to access our 'intranetty' things, and I don't recall having to close the local Firefox.)
09:32:51 <fizzie> -no-remote Open new instance, not a new window in running instance.
09:32:53 <fizzie> Maybe that one.
09:33:54 <fizzie> It's not possible to run two separate Firefoxes using the same profile even with that, but it should be okay to run something on a remote computer, since presumably it's not using the same profile.
09:34:12 <fizzie> (If it is, e.g. over NFS, I think it might not be the best of ideas.)
09:36:19 <fizzie> Also latest counts for 6797 samples: http://sprunge.us/GjLD -- and the chi2 score is 60, which corresponds to virtual certainty of rejecting the "uniform distribution" hypothesis (p=10^-9 or so).
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09:36:29 <fizzie> Strange sort of bias, though.
09:38:21 <ais523> fizzie: it isn't in this case
09:38:37 <ais523> as for that distribution, I'm wondering if it's intended to be uniform but the randomizer is broken
09:42:46 <fizzie> Sounds possible, though I wonder how it is broken, and if it's time-seeded whether my ten-second polling interval has something to do with it.
09:47:19 <fizzie> Maybe after the 10k-sample run has finished I should make a forum post. They have forums, right? Though maybe it's a 'faux pas' to speak of the About page without pretending not to notice the randomness.
09:54:25 <ais523> mezzacotta has forums, I think they apply to everything hosted there
09:56:24 <fizzie> There seems to be a "Comments on a Postcard"... uh, group? topic? area? region? forum? shindig? hunting ground? ...in there.
09:58:32 <fizzie> OTOH, I've already download 40 megabytes' worth of data, I'm not entirely sure I want to admit that.
09:59:18 <fizzie> (The page sizes range from 2912 to 4360 bytes.)
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11:21:03 <fizzie> Just in case, also fed the numbers to MATLAB's χ2-goodness-of-fit test, and it agrees on the unlikeliness: http://sprunge.us/SSQL
11:24:12 <fizzie> Sorry, http://sprunge.us/EjLY -- misread the documentation for 'nparams'.
11:24:57 <fizzie> Admittedly I *was* wondering about the p = NaN bit, thought it'd underflow to 0 instead, and that it wouldn't be *that* small quite yet.
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11:31:59 <ais523> fizzie: seemed a bit weird to me too
11:32:06 <ais523> NaN means "no probability", rather than "no chance" :)
11:36:39 <fizzie> If I disregard the highest-numbered count, I get p=0.0596, which isn't yet quite unlikely enough.
11:37:58 <ais523> indeed
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14:35:11 <Sgeo> WHY did my HD just go read-only?
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14:37:48 <fizzie> Remount-as-read-only is one common response to errors.
14:38:11 <fizzie> The "errors=remount-ro" mount option.
14:38:48 <ion> sgeo: dmesg | tail
14:39:33 <Sgeo> Sorry in advance for incoming flod
14:39:36 <Sgeo> sgeo@sgeo-Satellite-A105:~$ dmesg | tail
14:39:36 <Sgeo> [28984.216422] ecryptfs_write_inode_size_to_header: Error writing file size to header; rc = [-30]
14:39:36 <Sgeo> [28984.216429] Error writing inode size to metadata; rc = [-30]
14:39:36 <Sgeo> [28984.216612] ecryptfs_write_inode_size_to_header: Error writing file size to header; rc = [-30]
14:39:36 <Sgeo> [28984.216619] Error writing inode size to metadata; rc = [-30]
14:39:36 <Sgeo> [28984.216633] ecryptfs_write_inode_size_to_header: Error writing file size to header; rc = [-30]
14:39:38 <Sgeo> [28984.216640] Error writing inode size to metadata; rc = [-30]
14:39:40 <Sgeo> [28991.831985] ecryptfs_write_inode_size_to_header: Error writing file size to header; rc = [-30]
14:39:42 <Sgeo> [28991.831996] Error writing inode size to metadata; rc = [-30]
14:39:44 <Sgeo> [28991.832082] ecryptfs_write_inode_size_to_header: Error writing file size to header; rc = [-30]
14:39:46 <Sgeo> [28991.832089] Error writing inode size to metadata; rc = [-30]
14:40:01 <fizzie> You could've just said "repeats N times".
14:40:16 <Sgeo> Maybe it isn't remounted RO, but .. something else?
14:40:16 <ion> Ok, the last 10 lines weren’t enough, you’ll need to look at more of it. dmesg | less and scroll around. What happened before those errors?
14:40:45 <Sgeo> [29068.269545] ecryptfs_encrypt_page: Error attempting to write lower page; rc =
14:40:45 <Sgeo> [-30]
14:40:45 <Sgeo> [29068.269553] ecryptfs_writepage: Error encrypting page (upper index [0x0000000
14:40:45 <Sgeo> 000001cd3])
14:40:59 <Sgeo> That occurs a bunch of times
14:41:06 <Sgeo> But there's the earlier errors I pasted before then
14:41:30 <fizzie> Well, it's very confused right now. The first error is often the most relevant.
14:41:38 <ion> Anything about problems with the actual device (that might be a hardware issue) or just ecryptfs problems (that, if alone, looks like a software bug)?
14:41:40 <fizzie> Especially if it comes from some lower level than ecryptfs.
14:41:53 <Sgeo> Just hit the top of dmesg
14:41:57 <Sgeo> More encryptfs stuff
14:42:08 <Sgeo> No
14:42:15 <Sgeo> I confused PageUp and PageDown
14:42:20 <ion> Well, it could be a symptom of bad RAM or other faulty hardware, too, but probably not e.g. a broken HDD.
14:42:41 <Sgeo> encryptfs errors fill dmesg
14:43:03 <Sgeo> I had a similar issue last night too. I needed to restart in recovery, let that take place, then booted up
14:43:26 <ion> less /var/log/syslog, something useful might have managed to go into it.
14:44:04 <Sgeo> DY ERR }
14:44:05 <Sgeo> Feb 2 01:59:33 sgeo-Satellite-A105 kernel: [ 1458.247678] ata1.00: error: { ICRC ABRT }
14:44:13 <Sgeo> Feb 2 01:59:33 sgeo-Satellite-A105 kernel: [ 1458.247639] ata1.00: failed command: WRITE DMA
14:44:27 <Sgeo> (Just posting interesting looking ones. And the last one I posted was before the first)
14:44:50 <Sgeo> Feb 2 01:59:33 sgeo-Satellite-A105 kernel: [ 1457.858737] ata1.00: exception Em
14:44:50 <Sgeo> ask 0x0 SAct 0x0 SErr 0x0 action 0x6
14:45:03 <Sgeo> Feb 2 01:59:33 sgeo-Satellite-A105 kernel: [ 1457.489310] res 51/84:18
14:45:03 <Sgeo> :a8:01:c5/84:01:06:00:00/e6 Emask 0x30 (host bus error)
14:45:19 <Sgeo> A whole bunch of these:
14:45:20 <Sgeo> Feb 2 01:59:32 sgeo-Satellite-A105 kernel: [ 1457.473124] Buffer I/O error on d
14:45:21 <Sgeo> evice sda1, logical block 13147229
14:45:44 <ion> Ok, that does look like a broken HDD.
14:45:55 <ion> And the ecryptfs problem is just a symptom of it.
14:46:01 <Sgeo> :(
14:46:04 <fizzie> Or the SATA port, that can be flaky too.
14:46:26 <Sgeo> My HD is a bit loose in the thing, is there a nice way to tell if it just sort of lost connection or if there's damage?
14:46:47 <ion> Yeah. But every HDD breaks sooner or later, SATA controllers are quite a bit less likely to just break by themselves.
14:47:02 <fizzie> You can run some sort of a 'badblocks' scan over it. If it's just intermittently flaky, it shouldn't find errors consistently at the same location.
14:47:04 <ion> Connect it to another computer.
14:48:07 <Sgeo> Can I try some sort of SMART thing?
14:48:11 <oerjan> > deleteBy (const (== 3)) undefined [1,2,3,4,5,3,6,7]
14:48:12 <lambdabot> [1,2,4,5,3,6,7]
14:48:38 <Sgeo> Although I don't know if I have any such thing already installed
14:48:51 <ion> smartctl -a /dev/sda | less
14:49:17 <Sgeo> The program 'smartctl' is currently not installed. You can install it by typing:
14:49:17 <Sgeo> sudo apt-get install smartmontools
14:49:36 * Sgeo needs to get ready to head for school
14:49:41 <oerjan> Sgeo: didn't you have a broken HD before (and got everyone annoyed by not following their salvaging advice...)
14:49:50 <fizzie> oerjan: Did you hear about my latest CHI^2 SCORES.
14:49:52 <ion> udisks --dump | less
14:49:54 <Sgeo> oerjan, this is a different HD
14:50:43 <ion> It doesn’t seem he’s losing any data. He hasn’t mentioned a lack of backups, which probably would be on the top of one’s mind if there are HDD problems *and* no backups. :-)
14:50:48 * oerjan cackles sadistically
14:50:57 <Sgeo> "backups"?
14:50:59 <Sgeo> >.>
14:51:15 <Sgeo> Although I don't have much of anything important on here. I think.
14:51:20 <oerjan> fizzie: i saw something about almost certainly not uniform
14:51:33 <Sgeo> Except my logs
14:51:36 <Sgeo> I love my logs
14:51:50 <ion> So… udisks --dump | less
14:52:15 <Sgeo> The status column is filled with good and n/a
14:52:29 <ion> ok
14:52:32 <fizzie> oerjan: It's like p=10^-11 likely get a this nonuniform sample if it actually were uniform.
14:53:02 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/private/7eaa3bfslg7sdekiroftg
14:53:49 <oerjan> fizzie: ideally with enough data you should get the real fractions of probabilities; if they are close to simple rationals that should give a hint...
14:54:02 <ion> I’d connect the disk to another computer and see what happens.
14:54:11 <oerjan> *approximations to
14:54:26 <fizzie> "udma-crc-error-count" *sounds* like it might be an issue somewhere between the processor and the disk.
14:55:13 <ion> aye
14:55:27 <Sgeo> fizzie, could that be caused by a loose connection?
14:55:33 <ion> It could.
14:55:55 <oerjan> like, if there are two tiers, one with probability p and one with probability q, as you'd expect if it was (x % 11) applied to something that _is_ uniform in some integer interval
14:56:00 <Sgeo> I should really get a mount for this thing
14:56:13 <Sgeo> In the meantime, I should probably resist the temptation to take it off the table
14:56:41 <Sgeo> Going to restart
14:56:47 <ion> Try fixing it with XML.
14:56:52 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, though normally you'd expect that x to be uniform in [0, 2^31-1] or something, in which case the difference from that would be quite small indeed.
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14:57:13 <ion> Any bets whether it’ll boot? :-P
14:57:55 <fizzie> oerjan: "Normalized" counts -- as in, count/expected, which would give [1 1 ... 1], are: 1.28168 1.09694 1.02814 0.97209 0.96826 0.96699 0.95807 0.94915 0.93896 0.93514 0.90456.
14:58:22 <fizzie> oerjan: Last time I tried after ignoring the largest one, the rest weren't quite yet abnormal enough to reject the null hypothesis.
15:00:39 <fizzie> Currently MATLAB's saying p=0.01 even for the "other ten" ones.
15:01:29 <oerjan> mind you you _shouldn't_ normally be getting 0.05 from something that is uniform, even if that's not sufficient for discarding a scientific null hypothesis
15:02:08 <oerjan> so, hm
15:02:14 <fizzie> Well, you should be getting 0.05 from about every 20th experiment, I suppose.
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15:02:50 <oerjan> which isn't quite the normal case, is it
15:03:59 <oerjan> now for there to be only a largest one that has higher probability, the interval before x%11 should have length 11*y+1
15:04:29 <oerjan> where 1 + 1/y is the excess in probability
15:04:42 <fizzie> Yes, and for 1.3 y is kinda small.
15:05:35 <oerjan> y = 3 or 4, giving 34 or 45, which are strange numbers to choose
15:06:05 <fizzie> I was hoping for the interval of 16, implying two iterations of the Befunge '?'.
15:06:36 <oerjan> 32 would have been perfect if there was precisely one item _less_ likely than the rest
15:06:41 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
15:06:45 <fizzie> Still, there are all those stories about patterns in bad RNGs.
15:07:03 <SgeoN1> The recovery thing worked last night...
15:07:13 <oerjan> fizzie: it could be he's generating it from a time stamp, as well.
15:07:54 <oerjan> the main mezzacotta comic uses a date (although not the _present_ date)
15:08:05 <SgeoN1> Oh, it was just being slow
15:08:11 <fizzie> Seeding from the current second is rather popular too.
15:08:43 <fizzie> I was wondering if my ten-second sampling interval is relevant. Or actually it's "fetch, delay of at least 10 seconds, fetch, delay ...", so the rate is in fact something close to 11 seconds.
15:09:07 <fizzie> Or maybe not close to 11, but over 10, anyway.
15:09:32 <SgeoN1> Not the present date?
15:09:44 <SgeoN1> Even for the present day's comic?
15:12:22 <fizzie> I'd say it's always just the date you specify, which for the present day's comic happens to coincide with the present date.
15:15:05 <fizzie> Anyway, here's the counts graphically: http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/mezza.png -- make of that what you will. But it doesn't quite look two-tiered.
15:17:58 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:18:02 <Sgeo> I think
15:18:12 <Sgeo> I'm not going to rest this laptop on my lap for a while
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15:20:33 <oerjan> fizzie: if you remove both the two largest items, what then?
15:22:17 <oerjan> > 9*6 + 7 + 8
15:22:17 * oerjan stares sternly at lambdabot
15:22:18 <lambdabot> 69
15:23:15 <oerjan> dmm wouldn't choose that number, would he.
15:25:07 <fizzie> What's that number about?
15:25:33 <fizzie> Oh, right.
15:25:51 <oerjan> apparently fizzie wouldn't either.
15:26:15 <fizzie> No, I mean, I know the result, I was just wondering about the 9*6+7+8 briefly.
15:26:54 <oerjan> i was guessing what if the two top numbers are special
15:27:15 <oerjan> then that seemed like a close approximation
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15:28:08 <fizzie> Right, right. Though I'm not sure if my current results match that terribly well. Though the smaller the differences, the harder it is to say.
15:29:05 <oerjan> statistically there should be _some_ outliers
15:32:42 <fizzie> p-values for selecting the sets 1..11, 2..11, 3..11, 4..11 and 4..10, respectively: 7*10^-5, 0.0129, 0.4662, 0.8690, 0.9666.
15:33:01 <fizzie> So, indeed, after discarding the top two it's not distinguishable from uniform.
15:33:25 <fizzie> (And the 4..10 set is quite a lot more uniform-ish that you'd expect.)
15:33:37 <oerjan> heh
15:34:29 <fizzie> It's done 8861 samples now, so it'll be finished this evening.
15:34:45 <fizzie> Three more hours or so.
15:38:56 <fizzie> Uh, posthumous s/-5/-15/ too.
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15:54:37 <Phantom_Hoover> helo
15:54:37 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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16:22:32 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot!
16:22:33 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: there's a defined format for data:// is reasonable. i concede that there may be
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17:13:55 <Gregor> Foop
17:14:56 <ais523> Gregor: is that the opposite of a sudden vanish?
17:16:36 <Gregor> Indeed!
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18:01:46 <Taneb> Hello!
18:01:46 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:01:53 <Taneb> @clear
18:01:53 <lambdabot> Messages cleared.
18:02:15 <Taneb> I've been thinking about Haskell Obfuscation
18:02:22 <Taneb> :t null . guard
18:02:23 <lambdabot> Bool -> Bool
18:02:33 <Taneb> > null $ guard True
18:02:34 <lambdabot> False
18:02:37 <Taneb> > null $ guard False
18:02:38 <lambdabot> True
18:02:51 <Taneb> Less clear version of "not"
18:03:43 <ion> :-)
18:04:37 <Taneb> If you need that
18:05:18 <Taneb> Also, point-free style seems to have a lot of point symbols
18:05:56 <Taneb> @pl \x y z -> y x (z x)
18:05:56 <lambdabot> ap (flip . ((.) .) . flip id) (flip id)
18:06:02 <Taneb> 4 in that
18:06:30 <Taneb> Also, I don't have a decent IRC client on this computer
18:08:41 <fizzie> Those are just dots; and note that it's full of nice round ()s instead of pointy ->s. Not that it's relevant, but still.
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19:00:52 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Final counts: http://sprunge.us/CejV
19:00:53 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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20:21:48 <Ngevd> :)
20:29:54 <itidus21> so.. it occurs to me that ideas of generalizations only hold true alongside things like platonic ideals
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20:31:46 <itidus21> on that note it has never been true i think that humans need anything more than a simple roof over their heads, a bit of food, clean water, exercize, and plenty of medicine in order to achieve maximum potential lifespan
20:32:20 <itidus21> and why on that note? well i mean humans do not need plato for anything but medicine
20:35:46 <Ngevd> Humans need those things to survive; to live, though?
20:37:27 <itidus21> i mean i dont think plato is vital for medicine but the idea of looking at things as platonic solids is fairly necessary probably for the weird science stuff which enables the creation of medicine i am guessing
20:37:47 <itidus21> Ngevd: oh yeah.. hmm you're right
20:39:15 <itidus21> Ngevd: so if someone is walking down the street with a gun i couldn't give him the benefit of the doubt that he was just going to hunt some boars... but i would be very tempted to give him that benefit of the doubt
20:40:41 <Ngevd> itidus21, do you live in an area where boars exist and can be hunted legally?
20:42:14 <Ngevd> But still look at him very carefully and make careful note of his appearance
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21:00:08 -!- oerjan has set topic: {M[m(_o)O!"elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY."(_o)o.?]}.
21:01:26 <oerjan> ais523: heaps of spam
21:01:27 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:01:38 <ais523> oerjan: I know
21:02:10 <ais523> when it's going this fast I prefer to take care of it in batches, it's faster
21:02:32 <ais523> [[LifeScript]] is nonspam, right?
21:04:59 -!- kwertii has joined.
21:05:19 <oerjan> ais523: i'd say :P
21:05:50 <oerjan> in fact, unusually much non-spam today, too
21:05:52 <oerjan> sadly not as much as the spam
21:06:05 <quintopia> ais523: is there a standard way of repeatedly deleting values from a list comprehension without adding a constraint for every value deleted?
21:06:24 <ais523> quintopia: err, I fear I'm missing context
21:06:39 <oerjan> which language, for a start
21:06:52 <ais523> it's like, I understand the individual words, and phrases like "list comprehension"
21:06:58 <ais523> but can't fit them together into a sentence
21:07:01 * oerjan would be most helpful if it's haskell, probably
21:07:36 <quintopia> i'm speaking purely abstractly
21:07:44 <oerjan> > [x | x <- [1..], not (x `mod` 3 == 0)]
21:07:45 <lambdabot> [1,2,4,5,7,8,10,11,13,14,16,17,19,20,22,23,25,26,28,29,31,32,34,35,37,38,40...
21:07:50 <oerjan> like this?
21:07:51 <quintopia> just wondering if *any* language has a way of doing it
21:08:37 <quintopia> oerjan: yes, but what if i wanted to just eliminate the values returned by my random number generator, but didn't want the comprehension description to grow linearly with number of values eliminated?
21:09:29 <Ngevd> Could you first zip [1..] and use that?
21:10:09 <ais523> quintopia: isn't that effectively asking "how do I get a list of all integers /not/ in a given lazy list"?
21:10:13 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:10:16 <ais523> I don't think that's mathematically possible
21:10:24 <oerjan> i am not sure "comprehension description" is the term you really want to use, here
21:11:16 <oerjan> indeed, unless the list of things to remove is either finite or predictably ordered, you may _never_ be able to conclude that a value is in the final list
21:11:46 <quintopia> another example: let's say i have a 100x100 binary matrix, and i set the bits on the main diagonal. a dense matrix requires 10000 bits to represent this. a (standard) sparse matrix requires 1400 bits. but it could be done with a single expression like "set if x=y". is there a well-known algorithm that heuristically encodes things this way?
21:12:06 <quintopia> i know compression in general is AI-hard, but i thought maybe there might be an incomplete standard solution
21:12:16 <oerjan> > [1..] \\ [2, 4 .. 10]
21:12:17 <oerjan> argh
21:12:17 <oerjan> @ping
21:12:17 <lambdabot> pong
21:12:17 <lambdabot> [1,3,5,7,9,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,3...
21:12:45 <ais523> \\ is list difference?
21:12:48 <oerjan> yes
21:13:00 <ais523> does it require a consistent sort order between the lists?
21:13:04 <oerjan> but it won't return anything unless the second argument is finite
21:13:07 <quintopia> oerjan: you can assume the number of excluded values is "n"
21:13:12 <ais523> ah, requires finite second list
21:13:12 <quintopia> a finite value
21:13:29 <quintopia> i like the way you did it there
21:13:32 <oerjan> also i think it only removes one instance if there are duplicates
21:14:27 <oerjan> which on the positive side means it should have no overhead for the remainder of the list after all the subtracted elements have been found
21:15:16 <oerjan> quintopia: for your "another example", haskell does not remove from you the obligation to choose efficient data structures for representing things.
21:15:24 <quintopia> what if i start with a lazy list like that, and i want to write a function delete_with_minimal_overhead(list,value)?
21:15:48 <oerjan> > delete 5 [1..]
21:15:49 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,2...
21:15:49 <quintopia> what would an efficient data structure for that be?
21:16:33 <oerjan> um you've already said "if i start with a lazy list", which sort of ties your hands a bit
21:17:07 <quintopia> for instance, i start calling it with (list,2),(list,4),(list,6),(list,8). It would be nice if it figured out that a bunch of even numbers had been deleted, and compressed {2,4,6,8,10,12,..} to "even numbers in this range"
21:18:00 <quintopia> i don't mean a particular representation of a list comprehension. i mean "whatever data structure that works like one but also does this"
21:19:05 <quintopia> maybe it just hasn't been done. i have to go :(
21:19:22 <oerjan> quintopia: well haskell doesn't do it, anyhow.
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21:21:56 <oerjan> ais523: ok LifeScript isn't spam, but i'm not convinced it isn't trolling :D
21:22:58 <ais523> heh
21:23:26 <oerjan> ais523: ok scratch some of that about unusually much non-spam, some of the edits that looked like they could be genuine were spams anyhow
21:39:28 <Ngevd> Etymology is sometimes interesting
21:39:36 <Ngevd> Scotland means "land of the Irish"
21:43:12 <quintopia> wat
21:43:24 <quintopia> so..."scots-irish" means "irish irish"?
21:55:19 <Ngevd> Ish
21:55:39 <Ngevd> The Romans called the Irish "Scotii"
21:55:53 <Ngevd> Which was then used to mean Gaelic
21:56:28 <Ngevd> And as Gaels (?) from Ireland went to Scotland (or "Caledonia" or "Pictland"), some stuff happened, and we're in a mess now
21:57:55 <oerjan> we can only assume the picts got a raw deal.
21:58:16 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: Goodnight).
21:58:44 <oerjan> clearly this is a matter of which Ngevd does not wish to speak.
22:01:18 <fizzie> Picts or didn't happen, like they say.
22:06:45 <fizzie> Bah, can't decide whether to make that biased-randomness post since it'd mean having to admit to wasting 34.65 MiB's worth of bandwidth.
22:07:12 <fizzie> Also incidentally it's the "Wow! signal" one that appears "too" often. Coincidence?
22:07:23 -!- nooga has joined.
22:07:57 <oerjan> just make a donation to the Jane Goodall Institute mentioning mezzacotta first.
22:08:32 <oerjan> or something like that, it's where they ask people to donate instead of to them.
22:09:13 * oerjan so reasonable suggestions
22:16:30 <oerjan> apparently Scott Aaronson is a betting guy
22:16:45 <oerjan> http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/perpetual-motion-of-the-21st-century/#comment-17911
22:17:08 <oerjan> QC = quantum computing
22:19:53 <oerjan> (he did a similar bet against the P!=NP proof that was floating around a year and a half ago)
22:25:19 <oerjan> oops, my window with top -d 30 in it has died
22:26:22 <oerjan> that was the first disconnect since i started putting that up. thus fails my theory that the problem had either stopped permanently, or that the windows somehow kept each other alive.
22:27:18 <oerjan> ooh wait
22:27:39 <oerjan> false alarm. it had just died last time i turned off my computer XD
22:29:20 * oerjan usually hibernates when possible
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23:02:32 <kallisti> > map unwords $ (`replicateM` ["player", "hater"]) =<< [1..]
23:02:33 <lambdabot> ["player","hater","player player","player hater","hater player","hater hate...
23:03:05 <monqy> hi
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23:23:33 <kallisti> monqy: are you a player hater hater or a hater player hater or a hater player player?
23:23:43 <kallisti> or just a hater hater hater
23:24:13 <monqy> I don't
23:24:14 <monqy> know???
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23:25:56 <kallisti> not cool
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02:31:34 <zzo38> I think I have figured out how to make a monad from any contravariant functor
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02:44:42 <Sgeo> Opened up the comp, pushed the HD in (and it was quite easy and went in rather far), so I'll see if that fixes it
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05:48:06 <pikhq> Huh. Verisign breach of unknown degree.
05:48:52 <pikhq> The security breach happened *2 years ago* but was only reported to the public *today*, courtesy of Verisign management being horribly fucked up.
05:49:08 <pikhq> There's a chance it extended to their SSL certs.
06:31:38 <zzo38> I think, I have managed to make up the monad from any contravariant functor, a generalization of what is done in the "infinite-search" package.
06:33:23 <zzo38> They use (a -> Bool) -> a while I have used f a -> a where f is contravariant
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12:20:57 <ais523> idiot spambot isn't even getting its links write
12:20:58 <ais523> *right
12:21:01 <ais523> "http:\\"
12:23:47 <fizzie> //:dʇʇɥ -- that's what weblinks look like in Australia.
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12:44:30 <Jafet> Woah how did you make that inverted colon
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12:54:07 <Taneb> Hello
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13:08:10 <Taneb> brb
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13:08:49 <Taneb> Back
13:09:50 <fizzie> Eats, shoots and leaves.
13:10:20 <Taneb> That's pandas, you fool, not Hexhamites
13:10:39 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
13:10:40 <fizzie> You never know about Hexhamites.
13:10:56 <Taneb> What esolang is the topic in now?
13:10:57 <fizzie> Also I recently checked the weather in Hexham, since it was the first UK location that came to mind.
13:11:05 <Taneb> Heh
13:11:14 <fizzie> It loogs Glassy to me.
13:11:19 <Taneb> Oh dear
13:11:45 <fizzie> The {M[m bit especially.
13:12:02 <Taneb> Oh, I thought you were talking about the weather
13:14:35 <fizzie> The M.m function does (_o)O! -- that is, construct an O object and bind _o to it -- followed by "blah"(_o)o.? -- so "blah", on the stack, get the O.o method from _o, then run it.
13:15:06 <Taneb> O.o outputs a string?
13:15:13 <fizzie> Yes.
13:15:36 <Taneb> I reckon, if I could use it, Glass would be my favourite esolang
13:15:47 <Taneb> Also, you're fizzie! I was meaning to ask you something!
13:16:04 <Taneb> Where does fungot's "fnord" come from?
13:16:04 <fungot> Taneb: yeah, riastradh is dynamic wind. why doesn't it expand then?
13:16:20 <fizzie> If I'm not mistaken, though, the program could have ben written by using a local variable 'o', as {M[moO!"blah"oo.?]} -- that'd be a bit more compact.
13:16:45 <fizzie> It's the Discordians' fnord.
13:16:51 <Taneb> Okay
13:17:20 <Taneb> I'm not very good at religions
13:18:16 <fizzie> It's a bit of a misuse in that the fnords should be there in-between the "content" part of the sentence, but the way fungot does it replaces the "unknown" word by it.
13:18:16 <fungot> fizzie: i only get one t!
13:18:38 <Taneb> ^style
13:18:39 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
13:18:43 <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, "fungott" would look pretty silly. And remind people of elliott.
13:18:43 <fungot> fizzie: now that could be nice, for a simple language can be used
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13:19:24 <Taneb> I didn't know I had the keyboard shortcut...
13:19:56 <fizzie> Do you know the old "join #2,000 to celebrate the millennium" joke?
13:20:03 <Taneb> No I do not
13:20:38 <fizzie> It's an IRC peculiarity; "JOIN #a,#b,#c" can be used to join multiple channels at once, while "JOIN 0" in fact parts all channels.
13:20:52 <fizzie> So in quite many clients "/join #2,000" will end up parting from all channels.
13:21:00 <fizzie> (In some, it joins #2 and #000 instead.)
13:21:36 <fizzie> It's a bit like the equally old "use /disco to turn on the lights" joke.
13:22:06 <fizzie> (Many clients auto-complete that to a /disconnect.)
13:22:17 <Taneb> Also, fungot seems rather condescending of elliott
13:22:18 <fungot> Taneb: now everything is screwed up a bit on where you are coding. it just exposes you to often irrelevant low-level details.
13:22:48 <fizzie> fungot holds no respect for us meat-sacks in general.
13:22:49 <fungot> fizzie: more like java) perl ml modules that define two different types of source code
13:22:58 <itidus21> fungot
13:22:58 <fungot> itidus21: i don't know until where it should
13:23:12 <itidus21> fungot fungot fungot fungot fungot fungot
13:23:12 <fungot> itidus21: you would have otherwise written in scheme
13:24:29 <Taneb> !addquote <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, "fungott" would [...] remind people of elliott. <fungot> fizzie: now that could be nice for a simple language can be used
13:24:29 <fungot> Taneb: just dig out some snippets of code in the wrapper. maybe for these people: it lets me name things fnord, like yours
13:24:41 <Taneb> Wait, it's ^
13:24:48 <Taneb> ^addquote <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, "fungott" would [...] remind people of elliott. <fungot> fizzie: now that could be nice for a simple language can be used
13:24:52 <Taneb> No, that's fungot
13:24:52 <fungot> Taneb: because i'm just confused
13:24:55 <Taneb> Aaarhg!
13:25:04 <Taneb> `?
13:25:08 <Taneb> `addquote <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, "fungott" would [...] remind people of elliott. <fungot> fizzie: now that could be nice for a simple language can be used
13:25:08 <fungot> Taneb: when the value is x. if it loses fnord, then? :p
13:25:18 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/: Is a directory
13:25:35 <Taneb> `ls bin
13:25:39 <HackEgo> ​? \ @ \ No \ addquote \ allquotes \ calc \ define \ delquote \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ google \ hatesgeo \ json \ k \ karma \ karma+ \ karma- \ learn \ log \ logurl \ macro \ marco \ paste \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ pastewisdom \ pastlog \ ping \ prefixes \ qc \ quote \ quotes \ roll \ searchlog \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ units \ url
13:25:48 <Taneb> `pastequotes
13:25:53 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29440
13:26:12 <HackEgo> 807) <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, "fungott" would [...] remind people of elliott. <fungot> fizzie: now that could be nice for a simple language can be used
13:26:49 <fizzie> Funny reply for `? there.
13:26:58 <Taneb> It took too many tries to add that quote. I tried /, !, and ^ before getting it right
13:27:32 <fizzie> `? fungot
13:27:32 <fungot> fizzie: aha... mediawiki takes care of such odd cases. so i sad down and wrote 30 lines of c
13:27:36 <HackEgo> fungot cannot be stopped by that sword alone.
13:27:45 <Taneb> `? Ngevd
13:27:48 <HackEgo> ​JbQ.3IG.m-l6c.'\..=q)^..3.X..7mB3^d.9Z.).a...GlӟM;ew4?쮊8,..^J9;Y4.sX\bj1@'h\rNX}8'/j_-..IΕ.ߎd;.6'_mE.c@K7. \ X.g2&d3.ųM.rJl]]C..d୛t{*bttٍ#j.UZU"V`N_rlI.ZY#. \ ]v6}3rP&n.(7Ns.8evi^jd |..Io<{.+.n`.&7"w.˷$".p;P.%VއvA..wx*PQ6dB^1}u㯗c.
13:28:23 <fizzie> I like the expression "to sad down". (Unless it's just a typo for 'sat'.)
13:28:46 <Taneb> Unfortunately, I believe it's more likely to be the latter
13:29:05 <fizzie> Sadding down is an appropriate prelude for writing some C.
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15:45:19 <pikhq_> Bleh. School's actually open today.
15:45:28 <pikhq_> Not that I'm going in.
15:45:41 <ion> How’s the weather in there?
15:49:31 <pikhq_> Blizzard.
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16:31:44 <Taneb> Hello!
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17:45:15 <Gregor> Wow, Glass in the /topic.
17:47:54 <fizzie> Gregor: Am I right that it could be the more compact {M[moO!"...."oo.?]} too?
17:48:23 <Gregor> !glass {M[moO!"Let's find out!"oo.?]}
17:48:25 <EgoBot> Let's find out!
17:48:28 <Gregor> ^^
17:48:54 <Gregor> Variables that start with lower-case letters are class variables, so it's namespace pollution is all.
17:49:07 <Gregor> (IIRC)
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17:51:37 <zzo38> tropicOfCancer = (cancer, zeroLat) Ecliptic Tropical Earth; -- I am trying to think of a kind of ephemeris software in Haskell........
17:52:28 <zzo38> Oops!
17:52:55 <zzo38> tropicOfCancer = FixedSphericalCoordinates (cancer, zeroLat) Ecliptic Tropical Earth;
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17:53:51 <zzo38> Any ideas?
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17:57:08 <hagb4rd> wtf is ephemersis
17:57:16 <hagb4rd> oh
17:57:31 <zzo38> Ephemeris is a way to figure out position of planets, sun, moon, etc
17:57:47 <zzo38> By using calculation instead of having to do observation
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18:03:31 <hagb4rd> do you _believe_ the the celectial bodies affect our lifes in some way?
18:04:14 <zzo38> hagb4rd: Mostly the sun and moon; the others wouldn't do much. But I don't believe they affect our lives in the way that astrologers say they do; they are just using superstitious stuff.
18:04:30 <hagb4rd> hehe.. is see
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18:05:25 <hagb4rd> so why that interest in astrology? is just a technical challange?
18:05:45 <pikhq_> I'm pretty sure that's just it.
18:06:02 <zzo38> Yes, as well as the things in common to astrology with astronomy, and some things are useful in both even if not common in either, I suppose.
18:09:55 <zzo38> When doing some kinds of calculation (including calendars), conventions of both astrology and astronomy can be useful; in addition, astrology does have some artistic uses even though divination doesn't work. So, functions of ephemeris can be useful for astronomy as well; and I know about their conventions such as right ascensions, declination, hour angle, etc.
18:11:17 <zzo38> Someone once wrote a article about astrology for astronomers. They tell how the conventions are similar and differences, and aspects, and so on. In my opinion, it is useful to combine astrology, astronomy, and calendar date/time stuff, into one program, since all three functions can be used together.
18:13:10 <hagb4rd> sure. there is a common determinator between both of them
18:14:30 <hagb4rd> 'though im not sure if between is the correct proposition
18:15:41 <hagb4rd> there are things known and unknown.. and in between is hagb4rds ignorance
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18:36:45 <Gregor> I think the worst thing about astrology is that the existence of the pseudoscience prevents us from investigating the social science of actual connections between birthdates and personalities, which would naturally stem from the interaction between environment and mating behavior of any animals with a short estrous cycle (e.g. humans).
18:37:35 <zzo38> Gregor: People can do it if they want to! But the exist does make people argue about it probably; still, some people can try to do so.
18:40:38 <zzo38> Do *you* have ideas how to do so more specifically, anyways??
18:41:54 <hagb4rd> i dunno.. guess its like tarot. it helps us to reflect on ourselfs
18:42:49 <pikhq_> Aaah, tarot. European card games used for divination.
18:43:31 <zzo38> hadb4rd: Well, yes, you can reflect on ourselves using various divinatory methods (but not for divination). You probably mean cartomancy rather than tarot; tarot is simply a deck of cards. Psychological cartomancy uses a tarot deck with more art than ordinary decks; you could probably find an article about that.
18:43:56 <hagb4rd> yea, thats i mean
18:44:01 <hagb4rd> +what
18:46:05 <zzo38> I do know a few games involving tarot cards, including a few modern ones, and one which uses icehouse pyraminds in addition to the cards.
18:46:51 <hagb4rd> i was studying crowley for a while
18:47:54 <hagb4rd> guess the problem bout science and axioms is it answers how but not why
18:48:08 <hagb4rd> +its
18:48:32 <zzo38> Science can answer why to a limited extent. Kind of.
18:48:55 <zzo38> Of course there are problems with science but it is the best we have.
18:49:45 <hagb4rd> to quote s.o. i do not know: problems are hidden opportunities ;)
18:50:07 <zzo38> hagb4rd: Yes, that too! Is good.
18:51:09 <zzo38> One example of artistic use for astrology is someone made up a time of birth for Harry Potter. (Of course it is still arbitrary like many arts but at least they have something to do.)
18:57:18 <Sgeo> The best way to reflect yourself is with a mirror.
18:58:27 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes I agree
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20:17:47 <oerjan> > reverse "elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY."
20:17:48 <lambdabot> ".YAW .ELBISSOP .TSROW .EHT ni gnalose na tcurtsnoc ot gniliaf woN | cipot-...
20:17:54 <oerjan> fff
20:17:57 <oerjan> ^rev test
20:17:57 <fungot> tset
20:18:03 <oerjan> > rev "elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY."
20:18:04 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `rev'
20:18:08 <oerjan> ^rev "elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY."
20:18:08 <fungot> ".YAW .ELBISSOP .TSROW .EHT ni gnalose na tcurtsnoc ot gniliaf woN | cipot-no ylthgils woN | /ciretose_/sgol/gro.udoc//:ptth | tnemecalper susagep gnikees ,ytlayoL fo tnemelE fo reraeb sa dekcas ttoille"
20:18:32 -!- oerjan has set topic: 0>:#,_@.
20:18:34 <oerjan> argh
20:18:41 -!- oerjan has set topic: 0".YAW .ELBISSOP .TSROW .EHT ni gnalose na tcurtsnoc ot gniliaf woN | cipot-no ylthgils woN | /ciretose_/sgol/gro.udoc//:ptth | tnemecalper susagep gnikees ,ytlayoL fo tnemelE fo reraeb sa dekcas ttoille">:#,_@.
20:19:03 <zzo38> Can you find the mistake in this program? http://sprunge.us/gbUF
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20:30:44 <oerjan> `welcome wanham
20:30:49 <HackEgo> wanham: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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20:35:12 <oerjan> so he made it more official http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=902
20:43:33 <fizzie> Is this just his second $100k thing? Funny how he's already "that guy who always offers $100k for unlikely things".
20:43:53 <oerjan> actually the first one was $200k
20:44:13 <fizzie> Oh, right. Well, "large amount of money" anyways.
20:45:02 <oerjan> i'd suppose gil kalai suggested it in jest, anyway :P
20:45:33 <fizzie> (In not-so-related news, no distribution-related wisdom from the CoaP forum, but 12 views of which only 2 are mine, anyway.)
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20:47:34 <oerjan> make that 13, or something
20:52:07 <oerjan> fizzie: do you have the full sequence of results saved? to check if "every 10 seconds" matters, you might try to graph them in order retrieved or something...
20:53:16 <fizzie> Sure; I guess I'll try that too, when I get to a real computer.
20:54:23 <oerjan> or maybe check if the ratios change much in subintervals
20:55:19 <fizzie> Also a goodie.
20:56:11 <fizzie> I think the same one was quite consistently 1.3 times the mean during the run. But that's just a feeling.
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21:06:50 <Sgeo> What was the first?
21:06:56 <Sgeo> The first prize thing
21:07:48 <fizzie> Was it that P=NP proof?
21:07:49 <oerjan> to vinay deolalikar in case his P != NP proof turned out to be correct / repairable
21:08:14 <oerjan> which quickly started looking rather unlikely
21:08:25 -!- Taneb has joined.
21:08:39 <Taneb> Hello!
21:08:43 <oerjan> but hi!
21:09:20 <fizzie> oerjan: If only they'd prove P != NP, then we'd finally know that N != 1.
21:09:51 <Taneb> The topic is making me read backwards
21:09:55 * oerjan swats fizzie -----###
21:10:07 <oerjan> doog yrev :benaT
21:10:23 <Taneb> !befunge 0".YAW .ELBISSOP .TSROW .EHT ni gnalose na tcurtsnoc ot gniliaf woN | cipot-no ylthgils woN | /ciretose_/sgol/gro.udoc//:ptth | tnemecalper susagep gnikees ,ytlayoL fo tnemelE fo reraeb sa dekcas ttoille">:#,_@
21:10:24 <EgoBot> 48 Unsupported instruction 'Y' (0x59) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ Unsupported instruction 'A' (0x41) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ Unsupported instruction 'W' (0x57) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ 121 Unsupported instruction 'E' (0x45) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ Unsupported instruction 'L' (0x4c) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ Unsupported instruction 'B' (0x42) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ Unsupported instruction 'I' (0x49) (maybe not
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21:10:52 <Taneb> Stringmode doesn't seem to work
21:10:52 <oerjan> wat
21:10:54 <fizzie> Oh, it's been Befungized. (Or is that over 80 characters? Funge-98ized in that case.)
21:11:01 <Taneb> !befunge98 0".YAW .ELBISSOP .TSROW .EHT ni gnalose na tcurtsnoc ot gniliaf woN | cipot-no ylthgils woN | /ciretose_/sgol/gro.udoc//:ptth | tnemecalper susagep gnikees ,ytlayoL fo tnemelE fo reraeb sa dekcas ttoille">:#,_@
21:11:02 <EgoBot> elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY.
21:11:10 <fizzie> I see it is.
21:11:19 <oerjan> oh right
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21:12:21 <Sgeo> `welcome MoALTz
21:12:25 <HackEgo> MoALTz: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:12:45 <MoALTz> *nod*
21:13:06 <oerjan> and in a rare moment of on-topicness, too!
21:13:24 <Taneb> Can I return things to normal?
21:13:48 <oerjan> by "normal" you mean "talking about everything except esolangs", right?
21:13:51 <Taneb> Yes
21:13:58 <oerjan> you may.
21:14:06 <Taneb> My gran's in hospital
21:14:07 <fizzie> oerjan: So how're things in the *real* esoteric programming channel that you're spying for? Are they all jubilous for our recent... quietudiness?
21:14:20 <oerjan> wat
21:14:46 * oerjan is a single-channel person
21:14:56 <Taneb> So, new esolang
21:15:56 <oerjan> well, i guess it beats hospital talk.
21:16:07 <Taneb> It's a CA, so can someone experienced with ALPACA help me?
21:16:07 <fizzie> It might still be about that.
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21:16:35 <fizzie> We haven't heard details. Maybe it's a hospitals-and-grandmothers-themed CA.
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21:17:12 <oerjan> i don't consider myself "experienced" with ALPACA, although i've read the spec once, i guess
21:17:24 <Taneb> Nah, it's falling down massive shafts based
21:18:06 <fizzie> That doesn't sound like it'd exclude hospitals, almost the opposite.
21:18:18 <Taneb> It doesn't mention hospitals
21:18:20 <Taneb> Or grandmothers
21:18:31 <fizzie> Okay then.
21:19:30 * oerjan is reminded of the danish "Riget" series (which he's never seen, but which an old student friend loved)
21:19:42 <oerjan> i believe it had both hospitals and shafts.
21:20:00 <oerjan> i'm not quite sure about the shafts.
21:21:47 * oerjan confirms the shafts using google
21:23:01 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kingdom_(TV_miniseries)
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21:28:26 <bbear> hello
21:28:38 <oerjan> `welcome bbear
21:28:41 <HackEgo> bbear: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
21:30:12 <bbear> I wanted to know :: do you know if it would ever be possible to program a computer with an infinite amount of memory ?
21:30:37 <oerjan> programming is easy. getting one on the other hand...
21:31:01 <Taneb> bbear, in the real world, it is impossible to create a computer with infinite memory
21:31:30 <bbear> Taneb, we had a discussion about this on ##c
21:32:03 <bbear> but a question slightly different would be if ever such a computer exist, would it be possible to program with it ? Would the « programming » word would have a sense ?
21:32:11 <Taneb> Ah, yes
21:32:21 <Taneb> It would definitely be possible to program with it
21:32:47 <fizzie> oerjan: http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/mezzoseq.png -- Does that look periodic to you? It looks periodic to me.
21:33:32 <oerjan> indeed
21:33:50 <fizzie> (It's the ten thousand visits on the X axis, with the small differences in Y axis giving the index of which thing came out. I've just wrapped it into ten lines to make it a bit more clearer.)
21:35:22 <fizzie> Maybe I should permute the indices a bit so that it'd look even more periodic.
21:36:02 <oerjan> do that.
21:37:29 <oerjan> from that, one _might_ suspect the script is keeping a counter...
21:38:23 <Taneb> bbear, with something like brainfuck, you could do [+>], which would use up all the memory after an infinite amount of time
21:38:28 <oerjan> if so, the irregularities would be others looking at the page simultaneously.
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21:38:36 <bbear> Can you imagine a language to program games ?
21:38:42 <fizzie> Well, *now* it is very periodic indeed. (Same URL.)
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21:39:31 <Taneb> bbear, you could (if you really want to) program games in brainfuck, assuming you didn't care about graphics
21:39:35 <bbear> Taneb, yeah... I was guessing that an infinite memory could make the system unstable because parts of the system could be uncontrolable in a finite time.
21:39:40 <fizzie> oerjan: Doesn't immediately explain why one value would be biased over the others, though.
21:39:45 <bbear> But here we are talking about every language.
21:39:54 <bbear> I mean i want to free my imagination.
21:40:03 <Taneb> bbear, any part of the system you have accessed, you can access again in finite time
21:40:16 <oerjan> fizzie: hm it looks like it relatively frequently jumps back in the sequence. was your 10 sec retrieval very regular or did you take many breaks?
21:41:26 <oerjan> fizzie: i don't suppose you kept the datestamps? :D
21:42:05 <fizzie> oerjan: The file timestamps are probably still there; but I didn't take any breaks at all.
21:42:12 <oerjan> ok.
21:43:09 <fizzie> Of course it was timed with a "sleep 10", so it's not an accurate frequency; in particular the delay between successive fetches depends on how long the fetch itself takes.
21:44:24 <oerjan> hm so if it's timestamp based, random network delay may explain the irregularities
21:45:52 <oerjan> i have a hunch the graph is not accurate enough to see how much it fetches the same twice in a row
21:47:24 <oerjan> fizzie: could you find the frequencies of the _consecutive_ pairs?
21:48:07 <oerjan> it seems that for each item, there's one particular which is most frequently given next, but the alternatives might also give information
21:48:31 <oerjan> (well that's just 2-grams, isn't it.)
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21:49:19 <oerjan> i suppose timestamps are also necessary to check
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21:50:29 <fizzie> oerjan: Hey, there's a DMM reply.
21:50:34 <fizzie> Turns out it's time()%11.
21:50:39 <oerjan> yay
21:52:02 <fizzie> Also the "Wow!" signal, the most common duplicate, is also the one that is the longest. Presumably it has a higher likelihood of taking longer than the ten seconds required to walk backwards in the time()%11 sequence.
21:52:21 <fizzie> s/duplicate/version/
21:55:01 <oerjan> i suppose if you gave a table of frequencies, usual order in the common sequence, and page length, that should explain most of it...
21:55:38 <oerjan> the longer, the more likely to redo it. hm right.
21:57:51 <oerjan> are frequencies and length in completely the same order?
21:59:04 <oerjan> well no. i'm pretty sure the Langerhans one was shorter than the Xabadunis.
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22:00:43 <Taneb> > (sum . concat . tails . flip (uncurry enumFromThenTo) 1 . fmap pred . join (,)) 12
22:00:44 <lambdabot> 364
22:00:45 <fizzie> I don't think they were, no; just the Wow! signal one was the longest.
22:01:02 <oerjan> since removing the top two made it indistinguishable from uniform, i suppose only the two longest were long enough to overcome the natural variation.
22:01:05 <Taneb> How many things are there on the nth day of christmas
22:01:16 <Taneb> And all preceding ones
22:01:18 <oerjan> fizzie: was the second one at least second longest too?
22:01:26 <Taneb> :t (sum . concat . tails . flip (uncurry enumFromThenTo) 1 . fmap pred . join (,))
22:01:27 <lambdabot> forall a. (Num a, Enum a) => a -> a
22:02:03 <fizzie> oerjan: Counts and byte-sizes: http://sprunge.us/QZPd
22:02:03 <oerjan> > scanl1 (+) $ scanl1 (+) [1..12]
22:02:04 <lambdabot> [1,4,10,20,35,56,84,120,165,220,286,364]
22:02:14 <Taneb> That is likely shorter
22:02:22 <fizzie> Some correlation, but not quite the same order.
22:03:02 <fizzie> Anyway, the sequence seems to quite often step back more than one step, so if there's a bias where those skips happen, then the sequence order would also be a factor.
22:03:17 <Taneb> > (last . scanl1 (+) . scanl1 (+) . enumFromTo 1) 12
22:03:19 <lambdabot> 364
22:03:37 <oerjan> maybe it has something to do with exceeding 4096 bytes...
22:04:18 <oerjan> > sum $ scanl1 (+) [1..12]
22:04:19 <lambdabot> 364
22:05:07 <oerjan> Taneb: btw did i mention that using null and head/tail instead of pattern matching is usually considered bad haskell style?
22:05:26 <Taneb> Probably
22:05:37 <oerjan> especially when you use the null to determine whether the head/tail is safe.
22:05:48 <fizzie> Could also have something to do with other boundaries; the standard MTU (max packet size) tends to be 1500, sometimes smaller, and there's the HTTP overhead + TCP overhead + IP overhead + whatever-is-the-network-layer overhead.
22:08:40 <fizzie> (And it might be gzipped over the HTTP wire.)
22:11:12 <oerjan> fizzie: oh hm to get redone there doesn't have to be a _large_ network delay, just enough to wrap from 0.9 seconds to 11.0 instead of 10.9
22:11:33 <oerjan> *extra delay
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22:20:10 <oerjan> Taneb: oh hm have you logged in as Ngevd since i sent those lambdabot messages?
22:20:49 <zzo38> How can we invent Haskell*#?@~ which is a new kind of group of extensions for Haskell which include many strange thing in addition to the normal things
22:21:02 <Taneb> oerjan, you sent them to Taneb
22:21:07 <oerjan> i did?
22:21:17 <Taneb> Yeah, and I cleared them because I logread them
22:21:37 <oerjan> ok then
22:22:44 <fizzie> Ohhh, and here I was thinking you thought there was probably something embarrassing in them and therefore @clear'd instead of @messages'd. (I'm not entirely sure why I thought that, since I suppose you'd just have read them privately in that case.)
22:22:45 <oerjan> zzo38: sounds like what the ghc people are doing all time *badum-tish*
22:22:51 <oerjan> *all the time
22:23:47 <zzo38> oerjan: They are but a lot of things I proposed are the things other people hate. So that is why to invent new one including things too strange for most people in #haskell even though some people in #esoteric might like it, not everyone does
22:24:13 <zzo38> Such as the -XNoEnglishKinds extension which almost everyone in #haskell channel hates
22:24:58 <Taneb> What does -XNoEnglishKinds do?
22:25:29 <oerjan> zzo38: i suspect that if they had considered polymorphic kinds from the start, they would have used alphanumeric kind names from the start too
22:26:20 <zzo38> Taneb: Changes OpenKind back to ? and Constraint to & leaving the alphanumeric names open for custom datakinds and so on
22:26:51 <Taneb> Fancy
22:27:53 <Taneb> Of course, I don't really know enough to appreciate the significance of that
22:28:20 <oerjan> :k (->)
22:28:21 <lambdabot> ?? -> ? -> *
22:29:20 <Taneb> This, I am afraid, means nothing to me
22:29:37 <zzo38> As well as -XMoreNotation, -XImprovedNaturalNumberKinds, -XInstanceDisambiguation, -XDefaultInstances, -XInlineLLVM, -XTemplateHaskellKinds, and so on... most people hate these things
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22:30:21 <zzo38> And the new macro system as well
22:31:04 <oerjan> it means that the -> type constructor takes two arguments, the first being a boxed or unboxed type, the second being that or an unboxed tuple, and returns a boxed type.
22:31:35 <oerjan> the upshot is that you can have haskell function types that handle some unboxed values, although the functions themselves are always boxed.
22:31:46 <Taneb> What do boxed and unboxed mean in this context?
22:32:01 <Taneb> I feel kinda stupid at the moment
22:32:16 <oerjan> boxed is the usual kind of haskell value, implemented as a pointer to a lazy thunk
22:32:16 <Taneb> For that matter, what does tuple mean in this context?
22:33:36 <oerjan> unboxed is a value represented without pointers and laziness, like a sequence of bytes in any other language
22:33:57 <Taneb> Okay, that makes sense
22:34:08 <Taneb> Seems the wrong way round to me?
22:34:09 <oerjan> ghc uses that internally for efficiency
22:34:43 <oerjan> and an unboxed tuple is a tuple of several unboxed values, which can only be returned from functions, not passed into them.
22:35:27 <oerjan> (the values of an unboxed tuple may end up being put directly on the stack or in registers)
22:35:41 <oerjan> @src IO
22:35:42 <lambdabot> Source not found. Maybe you made a typo?
22:35:50 <zzo38> As well as -XCompatibility703, -XNoParameterTypeClasses, -XCombinedInstances, -XNoUnicode, -XExtendedOperatorNames, and so on
22:35:52 <oerjan> sadly @src has removed that stuff
22:36:40 <Taneb> So, because functions are boxed, they can flit about in the mind of the haskell program without being in a specific place in memory
22:36:58 <Taneb> But can simultaneously look at bits of memory and other things flitting about
22:37:26 <oerjan> Taneb: unboxed things can be copied of course, like in C...
22:37:29 <oerjan> @src Int
22:37:29 <lambdabot> data Int = I# Int#
22:37:52 <oerjan> an example there: Int is implemented as a datatype wrapping an unboxed Int#
22:38:00 <zzo38> I don't know how you call the Haskell that I proposed or how to change GHC or anything like that; write a new one; I don't know how do you know?
22:38:26 <oerjan> ghc's optimizer may frequently remove the entire data wrapping, and handle words in memory instead
22:38:35 <Taneb> Wasn't elliott working on a Haskell Compiler a while back?
22:39:09 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes that is a good idea.
22:39:28 <oerjan> (well of course a data type is also implemented in memory, but with all that laziness support included
22:39:31 <oerjan> )
22:40:05 <oerjan> Taneb: i don't quite remember.
22:40:35 <Taneb> He was trying to think of a name because Hexham Haskell Compiler looked stupid?
22:41:19 <oerjan> anyway, standard haskell has only one base kind * which is boxed types, while ghc adds a heap of others for supporting unboxed things.
22:41:39 <zzo38> And my proposal added two more + and &
22:42:00 <Taneb> What would they be?
22:42:11 <oerjan> and other haskellers already added & except with the name Constraint
22:42:24 <zzo38> + for natural number types and & is what is now called Constraint
22:43:10 <zzo38> Except mine is different where + is a subkind of * which now means that the built-in type (->) is the type of array with a fixed number of elements.
22:45:12 <zzo38> Another idea is a new kind of n+k patterns (different from the old one) usable both in type level and value level, with types of kind +
22:46:13 <oerjan> zzo38: n+k patterns? now you're just _asking_ for them to hate it :P
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22:47:29 <zzo38> I do hate ordinary n+k patterns
22:47:36 <zzo38> But this is a new kind
22:49:21 <zzo38> Which is only usable with values of types of kind + (as well as types of kind + themself in type level patterns)
22:50:33 <Taneb> I've been thinking about a graphical version of Haskell, possibly similar to Scratch, App Inventor, et al.
22:51:06 <Taneb> It's pretty difficult
22:52:04 <zzo38> oerjan: See? These are a new n+k patterns which are different than the old n+k patterns. I also hate the old n+k patterns but this new kind can explain natural numbers in general
22:52:23 <oerjan> mhm
22:54:34 <Taneb> Kinds would make it simpler
22:55:39 <Taneb> Goodnight
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22:57:23 <zzo38> For example: type family X (n :: +) (t :: *); type instance X 0 x = x; type instance X (n + 1) x = X n x -> X n x; is a kind of the new n+k patterns for natural number kinds, at the type level. But they could be used at value level as well.
22:58:17 <zzo38> Is it understand now?
22:58:42 <oerjan> i think so
23:01:36 <oerjan> hm except for notation, won't this be essentially that new type-to-kind lifting extension applied to data Nat = Zero | Succ Nat
23:02:26 <oerjan> (i'm not into the details of that, though)
23:04:18 <zzo38> I have read about that, but I don't think it is exactly the same thing, because my proposal puts + as a subkind of * so for example, (100 -> Bool) is a valid type which means an array of 100 bits
23:05:13 <zzo38> (And like I specified, these new n+k patterns would also be usable in value patterns as well as type patterns)
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23:21:16 <zzo38> Another idea is to write new versions of the list operations: length, (!!), findIndex, and so on, using: class Peanoid x where { zeroP :: x; succP :: x -> x; }; class Copeanoid x where { predP :: x -> Maybe x; }; (These are a specific kind of pointed unary systems, and some variations on them.)
23:21:34 <zzo38> This could be done even in existing Haskell compiler, simply using alternative Prelude
23:21:43 <zzo38> Or other libraries can be written easily.
23:24:01 <zzo38> (h : t) !! i = maybe h (t !!) $ predP i; length [] = zeroP; length (h : t) = succP $ length t;
23:25:43 <zzo38> I don't know whether you would prefer new versions of the list operations defined like this or not
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23:49:32 <Gregor> I think I like the word "ciretose"
23:53:20 <zzo38> There doesn't seem very good document for "preprocessor-tools" package.
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00:20:51 <zzo38> Those people in #haskell channels, they don't know my program!!! Can you help me why the file it output won't load in another program?
00:27:13 <zzo38> Can you please tell me why my program is bad??????????????
00:33:23 <oerjan> :t asum
00:33:24 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `asum'
00:33:30 <oerjan> @hoogle asum
00:33:31 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable asum :: (Foldable t, Alternative f) => t (f a) -> f a
00:33:50 <oerjan> zzo38: i think choice = asum
00:34:38 <zzo38> oerjan: OK. I put it there just to generalize the Parsec choice function, but thanks for idea
00:35:43 <zzo38> But do you know what is wrong with the MIDI output?
00:36:13 <oerjan> i don't even know MIDI format, alas
00:36:39 <oerjan> i suspect i can only give trivial advice here
00:36:52 <zzo38> Well, if you do find other problems them please notify me anyways
00:37:25 <oerjan> > map sum . tail . inits $ [1,5,7,10]
00:37:27 <lambdabot> [1,6,13,23]
00:37:40 <oerjan> > scanl1 (+) [1,5,7,10]
00:37:41 <lambdabot> [1,6,13,23]
00:37:59 <zzo38> O, I didn't know that. Thanks
00:40:40 <oerjan> :t until
00:40:41 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> Bool) -> (a -> a) -> a -> a
00:41:06 <oerjan> i think that's similar to your <<?, although possibly with reversed test
00:42:21 <zzo38> What module is that?
00:42:40 <oerjan> Prelude, i think
00:44:06 <zzo38> until is different to <<?
00:44:30 <oerjan> i think (<<?) = flip (until . (not .))
00:45:09 <zzo38> <<? is not recursive; until calls itself until it is true but <<? just does once, so it is different
00:45:21 <oerjan> oh right
00:45:29 <oerjan> misread
01:07:55 <oerjan> zzo38: your instance Eq Event looks wrong, and the Ord looks equivalent to a default derivation. i think you might just want deriving (Show, Eq, Ord) on the data declaration?
01:10:26 <zzo38> O yes you are correct.
01:10:53 <oerjan> i don't know if the Eq Event bug might cause some trouble
01:10:58 <zzo38> I thought I fixed that already, but I guess I forgot.
01:12:45 <zzo38> That didn't fix it
01:13:31 <oerjan> aww
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02:04:11 <zzo38> Oops! There seems a mistake in preprocessor-tools package it won't parse things such as 0x7 correctly
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03:22:08 <zzo38> What is your opinion of alternative list operations that use Peanoid/Copeanoid classes instead of numeric classes?
03:26:00 <oerjan> hm do you really need more than data Nat = Zero | Succ Nat for this? it seems to me like all others could easily be converted from/to that
03:27:24 <zzo38> Yes they could, but you still might want the functions to result in various types, including numeric types
03:27:32 <oerjan> toNat x = maybe Zero (Succ . toNat) . predP
03:28:30 <oerjan> fromNat Zero = zeroP; fromNat (Succ x) = succP (fromNat x)
03:28:33 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes that works. Mine was just polymorphic so that you can still have: length :: [x] -> Int and so on would still work. In addition to possibly other uses
03:29:27 <zzo38> Similar to genericLength and so on but with different classes
03:29:37 <Sgeo> kallisti, rapdate if you didn't see it
03:30:27 <zzo38> Of course it can be written in different codes and you do not have to use if you do not like it; it is like, they sometimes have alternative Prelude and so on
03:31:16 <oerjan> i wonder if findIndex and friends should return something lazier
03:31:44 <oerjan> data MaybeIndex = Found | NotFound | Later MaybeIndex
03:32:35 <zzo38> Yes that would be lazier you are correct; they could have a lazyFindIndex function which returns that
03:35:39 <zzo38> It would be possible make alternate prelude compatible with standard prelude, using the default instances extension I have proposed, too.
03:41:53 <zzo38> Now I made up a fixAst function which corrects the problem that preprocessor-tools package will not parse 0x45 and things like that; I also added feature to parse 0b110001 and 0'A' as well.
03:42:26 <zzo38> (Where 0'A' is 65)
03:42:56 <zzo38> It will correctly check first whether or not the tokens are adjacent before combining them, so it won't reparse them if the tokens have space in between
03:46:26 <zzo38> However, it also fails at Template Haskell name quotations
03:46:50 <zzo38> Which is more difficult to fix.
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04:47:45 <oklopol> mornin
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04:48:53 <oklopol> i coded all night. i feel so dirty.
04:49:27 <zzo38> Then go shower
04:55:44 <ion> In what language?
04:58:51 <oerjan> in Clean, of course.
05:08:26 <oklopol> c#
05:08:33 <oklopol> that has nothing to do with feeling dirty
05:08:47 <oklopol> neither does the lack of shower
05:09:10 <Sgeo> oklopol, I'm sure coding in PHP could make you feel dirty
05:09:31 <oklopol> php is horrible. c# is okay, just really annoying.
05:10:54 <zzo38> I know, PHP isn't very good.
05:11:51 <zzo38> Mostly due to some syntax not acceptable (such as f(0)[1] doesn't work) and the way implicit casts work doesn't entirely make sense, and a few other things
05:12:41 <zzo38> JavaScript is clearly better; if you can make library with many stuff of PHP then you can do
05:25:55 <zzo38> Do you know, how in Haskell, to find all files matching the wildcards specification?
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05:55:37 <hagb4rd> zzo38: found a soulution?
05:58:17 <hagb4rd> wonder if there is an easier way then using filter on regex condition
05:59:16 <hagb4rd> *than
06:08:05 <kallisti> that already sounds pretty easy.
06:23:16 <hagb4rd> so the answer is no
06:23:30 <hagb4rd> there is none
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06:48:55 <zzo38> hagb4rd: I was watching television so I haven't checked yet
06:50:19 <zzo38> Do you know if a package exists for this purpose?
07:18:15 <hagb4rd> which purpose exactly
07:18:33 <hagb4rd> zzo38 there are several regex packages
07:18:53 <zzo38> Such as if you have wildcards and want to search list all files matching those wildcard
07:20:39 <hagb4rd> get list of files with getDirectoryContents
07:20:48 <zzo38> Yes I found that.
07:21:15 <zzo38> Still, the filespec might include a path; but that can probably be moved too using other functions
07:21:20 <hagb4rd> then use filteredList = filter(regexp files)
07:21:28 <hagb4rd> thats it
07:21:32 <zzo38> OK
07:22:02 <zzo38> But what about: in Windows, filenames are case insensitive, but in UNIX, is case sensitive!
07:22:28 <hagb4rd> learn more about regular expressions
07:22:40 <hagb4rd> [a-z]*
07:22:45 <hagb4rd> small caps
07:22:51 <zzo38> I know how regular expressions works
07:22:53 <pikhq> zzo38: Not (entirely) true.
07:23:07 <pikhq> zzo38: In Win32, filenames are case insensitive.
07:23:10 <hagb4rd> i do not see your problem
07:23:34 <pikhq> zzo38: With the NT API, or the POSIX subsystem, on Windows filenames are case sensitive.
07:23:41 <zzo38> hagb4rd: I just told you; it is that it must be matched differently in different operating systems
07:23:55 <hagb4rd> normally one uses * or ? as wildcard
07:24:03 <hagb4rd> so
07:24:19 <zzo38> pikhq: Doesn't it depend on the filesystem or something like that? I think I read somewhere that the NT internally uses different rules for different filesystems depending on the driver, or something else
07:24:33 <zzo38> Even though Win32 is always case insensitive
07:24:42 <pikhq> zzo38: Not *really*...
07:25:03 <pikhq> FAT with LFNs is actually case sensitive.
07:26:19 <hagb4rd> ok.. if you want to ignore cs just make them all lowerCase before using regex
07:26:24 <hagb4rd> for example
07:26:25 <pikhq> (and, indeed, UTF-16)
07:26:42 <zzo38> hagb4rd: That is no good; because then it won't work on UNIX
07:26:51 <hagb4rd> the question is
07:27:02 <hagb4rd> what do you want
07:27:28 <zzo38> To do different for Windows and UNIX
07:27:43 <hagb4rd> if you want to use ignore caps do so..if not..
07:27:58 <pikhq> hagb4rd: But that's platform specific.
07:28:15 <hagb4rd> sure
07:28:20 <hagb4rd> so what`?
07:28:28 <pikhq> So, you have to handle them seperately.
07:28:42 <pikhq> The computer isn't psychic.
07:31:08 <hagb4rd> listen.. if we have these files on a unix system, for example.. myfile01, myfile02, myFile01 and myFile02 .. and you can search for my[f,F]ile* or myfile*
07:31:41 <hagb4rd> isnt that what you want to do?
07:31:41 <pikhq> And those match two different sets of files on a UNIX system, but precisely the same set on Windows.
07:32:07 <hagb4rd> i give up
07:32:33 <pikhq> Actually. Screw it, I blame zzo38.
07:32:34 <pikhq> :)
07:32:49 <zzo38> pikhq: For what?
07:32:57 <pikhq> I'm not sure. :)
07:33:35 <hagb4rd> <zzo38>Do you know, how in Haskell, to find all files matching the wildcards specification? <--
07:34:18 <hagb4rd> so the wildcard will be the argument for your function right?
07:34:42 <hagb4rd> if so.. you can decide which wildcard to use dependig on the case
07:35:12 <hagb4rd> and of course the system
07:37:04 <hagb4rd> sorry, maybe i did not understand the use case of your code
07:41:10 <hagb4rd> im pretty sure i dont
07:41:12 <hagb4rd> :P
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08:24:04 <Taneb> Hello!
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11:36:26 <Taneb> Just finished my implementation of Langton's Ant in Haskell
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13:53:23 <Taneb> There's actually a new esolang!
13:53:33 <Taneb> It's a bf derivative, but that's better than spam
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14:48:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, WRONG
14:48:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Spam is at least obviously worth removing.
14:49:09 <Phantom_Hoover> BF derivatives are a cancer running throughout the fringes of the esolang community, and as the fringes vastly outweigh the core, we're screwed.
14:50:19 <fizzie> They're also a great way to get a rant out of a Phantom_Hoover.
15:44:15 <kallisti> do you guys know who Dale Earnhardt is?
15:44:50 <Taneb> brb
15:44:54 <Taneb> And no
15:47:28 <fizzie> I've heard the namel
15:47:41 <fizzie> Did it have something to do with... driving?
15:47:52 <fizzie> Or some sort of real-world activity.
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15:52:21 <fizzie> I think Something Positive made a bad-taste joke about his death, or something.
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15:53:43 <kallisti> fizzie: yes, and maybe?
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15:55:02 <Taneb> Back
16:00:17 <kallisti> I learned from my mother today that we're distantly related to Dale Earnhardt.
16:00:24 <kallisti> I thought that was slightly hilarious.
16:05:07 <Taneb> Alas, the most famous person that there's rumours I'm related to is me.
16:05:22 <Taneb> :/
16:05:36 <Taneb> `quote feudal
16:05:48 <HackEgo> 476) <Taneb> That offers me some social standing, feudal system wise
16:06:13 <Taneb> No, past me, it really doesn't
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17:08:05 <variable> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4444
17:08:10 <variable> this is an interesting thought
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19:44:52 -!- ais523 has set topic: ".YAW .ELBISSOP .TSROW .EHT ni gnalose na tcurtsnoc ot gniliaf woN | cipot-no ylthgils woN | /ciretose_/sgol/gro.udoc//:ptth | tnemecalper susagep gnikees ,ytlayoL fo tnemelE fo reraeb sa dekcas ttoille">:#,_@.
19:44:55 <ais523> stack starts full of zeroes
19:45:03 <ais523> no need to put one there right at the start of the program
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19:54:57 -!- Gregor has set topic: DISPLAY 'elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY.' LINE 1 POSITION 1. STOP RUN..
19:55:07 <Gregor> I was gettin' tired of backwards ^^
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20:09:04 <fizzie> ais523: Personally I always put a zero in anyway. Code reuse and all that. You never know when your snippet is being run in a context where there's something interesting on the stack. (I guess for the topic one could make a concise-is-good argument, though.)
20:14:47 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> BF derivatives are a cancer running throughout the fringes of the esolang community, and as the fringes vastly outweigh the core, we're screwed.
20:14:51 <HackEgo> 808) <Phantom_Hoover> BF derivatives are a cancer running throughout the fringes of the esolang community, and as the fringes vastly outweigh the core, we're screwed.
20:16:47 <oerjan> <Taneb> Alas, the most famous person that there's rumours I'm related to is me. <-- i vaguely recall i'm supposedly related to some norwegian actor or something, but i'm not entirely sure who it was.
20:17:47 * oerjan wonders if it was Toralv Maurstad, although you won't have heard of him anyhow.
20:18:10 <Taneb> That reminds me, it's time to start The Girl Who Played With Fire
20:18:17 <Taneb> Even though that's Swedish
20:18:31 <oerjan> it's a pretty far off relationship i think.
20:19:24 <oerjan> also there's supposedly some dutch aristocracy back in the centuries
20:19:51 <Taneb> I share a surname with a DJ's stage name...
20:20:38 <oerjan> you also share half a surname with Jean Claude van Damme
20:20:46 * oerjan cackles evilly
20:21:07 <Taneb> A mere tussenvoegsel
20:21:30 <oerjan> wat
20:21:36 <Taneb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tussenvoegsel
20:21:58 <oerjan> noted
20:22:21 <Taneb> Not likely to come in handy
20:23:09 <zzo38> How to predict world events by the movement of planets: Step 1. Use computer to compute positions of planets. Step 2. Use a telescope to view those positions in the sky. Step 3. If it doesn't match, then you can predict the end of the world.
20:23:36 <oerjan> also, you have a personal incentive to use fonts with disastrous keming for your future publications
20:24:15 <oerjan> especially the ones with dangerous science in them.
20:24:16 <Taneb> oerjan, and get a doctorate
20:24:53 <Taneb> I mean, if what's the point of being Mister van Doom
20:26:38 <oerjan> zzo38: or maybe you just need to buy a new clock.
20:27:37 <oerjan> now if you see a dark disk of no stars where jupiter was supposed to be, you may start to worry.
20:27:55 <oerjan> especially if the surrounding stars look slightly off-position.
20:28:30 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, there is the possibility that the clock is incorrect. But if that is the case you can still try different times and look for other clocks and so on. And yes, dark disk and that stuff is another thing you can worry
20:29:14 <oerjan> (note: it doesn't strictly need to be jupiter. jupiter's mass would be far too small for that anyhow.)
20:30:04 <zzo38> But still, there may be other things too that would tell you there is something wrong.
20:30:38 <oerjan> also, i'm totally waiting for that radioastronomy picture of a supermassive black hole which there are apparently at least two teams competing to be the first to produce.
20:30:39 <zzo38> I think you mean black holes? Yes I think Jupiter's mass is too small for that
20:31:01 <fizzie> Something I've wondered at least thrice: how does the JavaScript snippet !(typeof worldHasEnded == "undefined") detect whether the world has ended? I don't think that's in the standard, though I guess it could be a common browser extension. (hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com uses that.)
20:31:03 <oerjan> unless jupiter had already got frighfully close
20:31:48 <Taneb> Shouldn't worldHasEnded be a boolean?
20:32:34 <fizzie> It's not defined in the code. I think it's assuming it gets defined by the environment only when the world has ended, and it's testing for its existence.
20:32:42 <oerjan> fizzie: i believe it is guaranteed that expression won't return false if the world has ended. unless something else has set that variable, i guess.
20:33:17 <oerjan> actually even if so.
20:34:50 <monqy> what if it's being run in space
20:34:58 <monqy> or does space get to end too
20:35:24 <oerjan> i suppose that depends on the exact kind of world ending.
20:36:17 <fizzie> Now I wonder if there is currently any JavaScript running in space.
20:36:45 <oerjan> false vacuum collapse should be particularly reliable
20:37:35 <fizzie> "javascript satellite" is not returning any very promising hits.
20:37:54 <Sgeo> What are the unpromising ones like?
20:38:15 <oerjan> there is at least one person blogging from the iss, i learned the other day
20:38:31 <fizzie> There's some satellite tracking code that you can run in a browser.
20:38:46 <fizzie> And then Google's satellite imagery related things.
20:39:21 <fizzie> And several "this site requires javascript" notes.
20:40:22 <zzo38> Can you track satellites by entering the orbital parameters into the fucticious objects file of Swiss Ephemeris?
20:40:52 <fizzie> Presumably. They're just going around there.
20:41:37 <variable> this is an interesting thought -> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4444 interactive compilation with some memory of what you said
20:41:40 <zzo38> And then you can plot artificial satellites on a horoscope too.
20:41:40 <variable> sort of
20:45:18 <oerjan> Gregor: what the heck is that esolang in the topic, i cannot find it on either esolang or codu
20:45:35 <Gregor> lol
20:45:36 <Gregor> COBOL
20:45:39 <oerjan> argh
20:45:48 <zzo38> Forth codes are generally compiled and executed as you type them in, while BASIC allows you to enter commands interactively as well as enter line numbers to enter instructions into the program which will be saved.
20:47:04 <zzo38> The new GHCi could also do that since they added feature to enter any top-level declaration at the prompt.
20:47:35 <Sgeo> Gregor, no it's not. It's missing all sorts of important stuff, like IDENTIFICATION DIVISION.
20:47:44 <oerjan> well forth has :
20:48:24 <Gregor> Sgeo: It's just a code fragment, not a complete program.
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20:48:34 <Sgeo> Gregor, make it a complete program!
20:48:35 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, the command : enters compile mode defining a new word, although ] will also enter compile mode and there are various other things
20:49:05 <Sgeo> Although COBOL is indentation sensitive IIRC.
20:49:09 <zzo38> Sgeo: Does a COBOL program require an IDENTIFICATION DIVISION or is that part optional and only the prorgram division is required? I don't know COBOL programming
20:49:23 -!- oerjan has set topic: /fnord/elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http:\/\/codu.org\/logs\/_esoteric\/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY./fnord.
20:49:31 <Sgeo> zzo38, IDENTIFICATION DIVISION is required I think
20:49:35 <oerjan> oh wait
20:49:46 <Sgeo> I think only ENVIRONMENT DIVISION and ... something else are optional, but I'm not sure.
20:49:54 * Sgeo googles
20:49:58 -!- oerjan has set topic: /fnord/elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http:\\\/\\\/codu.org\\\/logs\\\/_esoteric\\\/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY./fnord.
20:49:59 <zzo38> OK, I didn't know that
20:50:26 <Sgeo> Environment and Data are optional, Identification and Procedure (I think it's called) are not.
21:00:22 <Gregor> Some math professor accidentally reply-all'd to an email from 2004 about an apparently-failed initiative to merge some of the major math-related libraries (incl. CS), and for some reason the CS graduate students' mailing list was on the CC. Now a bunch of people are replying, not realizing that the conversation is eight years out of date.
21:02:55 <fizzie> Oh, SDCC... "int foo; /* file-scope */ ... foo = bar();" => call _bar; ld b, h; ld c, l; ld iy, #_foo; ld 0(iy), c; ld iy, #_foo; ld 1(iy), b .. it's like some sort of "most pessimal assembly" competition. (It could be replaced by "ld (_foo), hl".)
21:03:40 <fizzie> (Well, except that wouldn't clobber bc.)
21:03:47 <fizzie> (And iy.)
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21:04:08 <Taneb> I'm making a webpage for me
21:04:20 <fizzie> Taneb: Remember to kern the name right.
21:12:13 <oerjan> kem eaλy, kem oAen
21:15:36 <fizzie> Just keep keming.
21:16:17 <fizzie> There's a relative lack of ligatures in Unicode. They dare to say it's not the job of the character set.
21:17:13 <fizzie> Of the latin alphabet, there's only "ij", "oe", "ff", "fi", "fl", "ffi", "ffl", "ft" and "st".
21:17:21 <oerjan> i recall a conversation once with someone who thought distinguishing upper and lower case letters was going too far
21:17:21 <zzo38> You could use something like METAFONT's ligature/kern programs
21:17:34 <oerjan> that there should just be some modifier for it
21:18:00 <zzo38> I think nearly everything in Unicode is going too gar
21:18:18 <oerjan> to boldly go too far
21:18:22 <zzo38> oerjan: I think some character sets do have just a modifier for uppercase/lowercase letters, although they are not commonly used
21:19:23 <zzo38> s/too gar/too far/
21:20:32 <fizzie> oerjan: I'd describe that statement as just loſty, high-flown, perhaps even rarefied.
21:20:44 <fizzie> Gah. I mean statement, of course.
21:22:01 <oerjan> i'd describe those lines as having about half the ligatures invisible in putty
21:22:06 <zzo38> When I subscribed to 2600 I noticed they used ligatures in fixed-pitch text. They shouldn't do that. I don't know if they still do; I have not yet resubscribed. Someoneone should notify them not to use ligatures in fixed-pitch text
21:22:34 <fizzie> oerjan: Aw. Well, the surviving ligatures are just "compatibility characters", anyhow.
21:22:53 <monqy> :(
21:23:21 <zzo38> Computer Modern typewriter style texts do not use ligatures, although the variable-pitch Computer Modern fonts do have ligatures and kerning.
21:41:44 <zzo38> Do you know if it is possible for a custom Haskell preprocessor to figure out which C preprocessor symbols exist?
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22:10:08 <oklopol> briiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
22:10:11 -!- pir^2 has joined.
22:10:15 <pir^2> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Lam%C2%ADent <-- WTF
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22:11:06 <pir^2> what control/non-printable character is in there?
22:13:38 <oklopol> (Replacing page with 'cocks')
22:14:52 <Gregor> "Cocks" is not an ANSI control character.
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22:16:24 <pir^2> no
22:16:27 <pir^2> the username
22:16:28 <oklopol> i guess i just assumed it wad
22:16:29 <oklopol> *was
22:16:37 <oerjan> > [0xC2,0xAD]
22:16:38 <lambdabot> [194,173]
22:16:47 <oerjan> ^chr 194 173
22:16:47 <fungot> M
22:17:01 <oerjan> hm
22:17:08 <pir^2> special characters?
22:17:09 <oerjan> ^chr 194
22:17:09 <fungot>
22:17:15 <oerjan> ^chr 173
22:17:15 <fungot>
22:17:27 <pir^2> that 194 lools weird O_o
22:17:36 <pir^2> *looks
22:17:52 <Gregor> U+00AD SOFT HYPHEN (U+00AD)
22:18:01 <oklopol> makes sense
22:18:02 <Gregor> 0xC2AD is the UTF-8 representation.
22:18:06 <Gregor> It's like a zero-width space.
22:18:16 <oerjan> Gregor: um surely the 194+173 is a single utf8 char
22:18:38 <zzo38> Someone with Android tried the Android gopher client and found a mistake in it. I tried to send message to them but it failed
22:19:19 <oerjan> oh right, 194 _is_ the first prefix
22:19:34 <oklopol> i just ate
22:19:37 <oklopol> (food)
22:19:41 <oerjan> ^chr 32 65 194 173 65
22:19:42 <fungot>
22:19:46 <zzo38> What food?
22:19:51 <oerjan> wtf is fungot doing there
22:19:51 <fungot> oerjan: is it important whether a _constant_ is signed or unsigned btw?
22:19:53 <oklopol> macaroni and stuff
22:19:57 <oerjan> ^show chr
22:19:57 <fungot> ,[>[->+10<]>[-<+>]<2-48[>+<-],]>.
22:20:15 <oerjan> oh right, it only handles a single char
22:20:29 <Gregor> <oerjan> Gregor: um surely the 194+173 is a single utf8 char // yes, 0xC2AD is the UTF-8 representation of U+00AD.
22:21:30 <ais523> &shy; looks like a zero-width space except at the end of a line
22:22:05 <Gregor> Ohhh, clever.
22:22:09 <Gregor> (But stupid)
22:22:11 * oklopol is watching moomins
22:22:21 <oklopol> i feel so finnish.
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22:23:46 <oklopol> *snoring* "i hear snoring. i shall whistle." *whistle* "the snoring has stopped."
22:30:38 <oklopol> (imagine this articulated excruciatingly precisely)
22:32:10 <oerjan> the moomins animations are made in japan, aren't they.
22:32:16 <oklopol> yes
22:32:33 <oklopol> there are three japanese episodes that were apparently too scary for finland
22:32:39 <oerjan> XD
22:33:47 <oklopol> (i found the finnish ones scarier than jaws when i was 6 or something)
22:34:36 <oklopol> well not all of them are scary ofc
22:35:13 <oklopol> there are also finnish moomin comics but those are mainly about the moomins drinking and having horrible hangovers
22:35:24 <oerjan> wat
22:35:36 <oklopol> i'm serious
22:36:15 <oklopol> "how can one be thirsty after drinking all night!" -- moominpappa
22:36:43 <Taneb> Oh god I remember the moomins
22:36:48 <Taneb> Barely...
22:37:44 <Taneb> I was more of an El Nombre fan
22:37:48 <oklopol> oerjan: did you know that tove jansson originally just wanted to invent the scariest creature ever
22:37:55 <oklopol> and that became the moomin
22:38:03 <oerjan> epic failure, that.
22:38:06 <oklopol> yes.
22:41:28 <oklopol> episode numbeer on: moomin turns into a horrible red creature and no one recognizes him.
22:41:36 <oklopol> *number one
22:42:00 <oklopol> "dad?" "i am not your father."
22:42:11 <zzo38> Then wear a sign so that you can be recognized?
22:42:51 <oklopol> horrible organ music starts playing, moonin starts crying and beating the mirror with his fists
22:43:37 <zzo38> Then they need to hire better organ music musicians
22:43:50 <oklopol> oh not that kind of horrible .
22:43:52 <oklopol> *.
22:44:08 <oklopol> the music is awesome.
22:44:31 <zzo38> OK
22:46:41 <oklopol> tonight, and 18yo girls wanted me to explain cantor diagonalization to her.
22:46:43 <oklopol> *girl
22:47:14 <oklopol> she didn't believe there can be multiple infinities.
22:48:13 <zzo38> That happen to me too, a few people have not believe there can be multiple infinities, so I showed them how
22:48:31 <oklopol> and i was like so i study these zero-dimensional space and she was like omg that's so cool.
22:48:56 <oklopol> well sure but were they hot
22:51:23 <oklopol> although she was more interested in 2^N and N^N having the same cardinality.
22:53:40 <Taneb> Cantor gets all the chicks
22:53:51 <oklopol> i couldn't come up with a nice concrete bijection, so i did this in a roundabout way, anyone have one in mind?
22:58:45 <oerjan> hm i have one from N^N to [0,1), i think.
22:58:57 <oklopol> me too
22:59:16 <oklopol> oh err no i have one between N^N and 2^N except all zeroes
22:59:25 <oklopol> wait. actually it's the same as yours
22:59:27 <oklopol> sorry.
22:59:43 <oklopol> i guess things like 1^n0 will always give you something like that
23:00:01 <oerjan> just .1^a_0 0 1^a_1 0 1^a_2 ...
23:00:06 <oerjan> *just .1^{a_0} 0 1^{a_1} 0 1^{a_2} ...
23:00:16 <oklopol> yeah
23:00:23 <oerjan> it cannot give something ending in infinite 1's
23:00:26 <oklopol> by 1^n0 i meant the code
23:00:36 <oklopol> where you have stuff.
23:00:45 <oklopol> i mean n to 1^n0
23:00:50 <oklopol> but i guess codes cannot give you this
23:00:57 <oerjan> wat
23:01:10 <oklopol> i didn't bother to make sense
23:01:11 <oerjan> by 1^a i mean a 1 digits
23:01:14 <oklopol> yeah
23:01:23 <oklopol> i mean
23:01:35 <oklopol> codes cannot give you the bijection i was asking
23:01:39 <oklopol> but maybe they can
23:01:48 <oklopol> i just have this weird feeling that compactness makes that hard
23:01:55 <oerjan> i have no idea what you mean by "codes", here.
23:02:06 <oklopol> hmm, perhaps because that would be a continuous bijection from N^N to 2^N
23:02:07 <oklopol> oh.
23:02:23 <oklopol> i mean n is replaced by 1^n0 in its place and you concatenate into sequence
23:02:53 <oklopol> codes mean that you have a language and you stick its words together to form longer words and you can always decode.
23:07:38 <oerjan> from 2^N to [0,1), you just use binary except that you need to somehow distinguish ...011111111... form ...10000000...
23:08:04 <oerjan> *from
23:08:32 <oerjan> which you could do by handling that slightly differently, say by prepending 0 to the whole number in one case and 1 in the other
23:08:47 <oerjan> (after the point)
23:08:51 <oklopol> yeah
23:09:24 <oklopol> that should do it
23:09:27 <oerjan> hm or wait
23:09:36 <oklopol> oh?
23:09:55 <oerjan> that might _still_ not distinguish .0111111... from .100000... when it's at the very start
23:10:23 <oerjan> or hm
23:10:50 <oklopol> yeah dunno, in any case once i realized codes prolly won't work i gave up.
23:11:09 <oerjan> it's all a matter of fixing up a countable subset, anyhow.
23:11:28 <oerjan> food ->
23:11:31 <oklopol> can you have a continuous bijection from N^N to 2^N?
23:11:43 <oklopol> a code would in fact be a homeomorphism so that won't work
23:12:25 <oklopol> or at least a prefix code would. dunno about crazy scientist codes.
23:12:45 <oerjan> why wouldn't there be a homeomorphism, hm
23:12:51 <oerjan> oh
23:12:56 <oerjan> N^N isn't compact
23:13:04 <oklopol> no N^N is the baire space
23:13:08 <oklopol> it's very different from 2^N
23:13:33 <oerjan> er it's product topology of discrete N's, no?
23:13:45 <oklopol> yes
23:14:15 <oklopol> it's a baire space called the baire space
23:14:16 <oerjan> very well i dunno
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23:20:22 <zzo38> O no the version of Haskell that I have does not include the dropWhileEnd function
23:20:37 <zzo38> Therefore I can include it directly in my program instead
23:21:43 <oklopol> i asked #math about the continuous bijection
23:22:14 <oklopol> they asked me what the topology of N^N was. "the usual one" was apparently meaningless.
23:23:30 <zzo38> Why aren't you allowed to hide things that a module does not export? That is one of my suggestion for a Haskell extension, which allows you to specify "hiding" on imports with things that are not exported by that module if you specify -XHidingNonexistent
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23:25:35 <Sgeo> "a blue card with an urza's block symbol? screw this Im not bothering to read it. its 5 stars, its broken, theres a zillion combos and it makes kids cry, right? im getting one. :)"
23:25:45 <Sgeo> ^^some comment on Donate
23:26:26 <zzo38> Donate? I know that card.
23:26:45 <pikhq_> 'Tis a classic.
23:26:46 <ais523> it's reasonably infamous
23:26:47 <Sgeo> What's so infamous about Urza?
23:27:01 <ais523> Illusions of Grandeur is the /most/ infamous combo with it
23:27:02 <zzo38> So, yes probably you can make many combos with it; at least, just from what I know about the text on the card itself; I read nothing else about it.
23:27:03 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Utterly broken.
23:27:05 <ais523> I can't remember which was banned
23:27:28 <pikhq_> Sgeo: This is the set that gave us a land that gave you one mana for each artifact you control.
23:27:30 <zzo38> ais523: O, yes; I have not thought of that.
23:27:47 <pikhq_> (or creature or enchantment... It was a set of 3)
23:28:06 <zzo38> But there were some artifacts costing 0
23:28:31 <Sgeo> There was a Friday Night Magic thing at my school ... on Friday
23:28:53 <zzo38> Sgeo: What formats did they play?
23:28:54 <Sgeo> We did a draft, I chose blue-green cards and someone helped me pare it down, he said to go monogreen so I did
23:28:59 <pikhq_> zzo38: It got upgraded from "broken" to "BROKEN" by Mirrodin, I'm sure.
23:29:11 <ais523> pikhq_: Mirrodin was broken enough by itself
23:29:21 <Sgeo> Um, best two of 3 against .. persons
23:29:33 <Sgeo> I tended to play slowly, and time was at a premium :/
23:29:34 <pikhq_> Yup. Makes sense that it made the previous utterly broken set even worse. :)
23:29:46 <ais523> Arcbound Ravager is a card that, where it's legal, people either play, or dedicate half their deck to beating
23:29:49 <zzo38> I always prefer Limited format
23:29:58 <zzo38> And, in Limited format, nothing is banned.
23:30:13 <pikhq_> Fucking Arcbound Ravager.
23:30:21 <zzo38> (Except for cards you bring in which aren't the ones you drafted)
23:30:38 <ais523> hmm, I actually managed to pull off Coalition Victory wins twice in a Limited tournament
23:30:39 <pikhq_> And Isochron Scepter.
23:30:43 <pikhq_> The fuck where they *thinking*
23:30:49 <ais523> the first time was hilarious, five monocoloured creatures, five different basic lands
23:31:02 <ais523> there were general wtfs from around the table
23:31:17 * Sgeo is not quite following this conversation anymore
23:31:31 <Sgeo> Oh, yeah, I saw Coalition Victory
23:31:33 <ais523> Sgeo: you started it!
23:31:45 <pikhq_> Sgeo: magiccards.info will help
23:31:47 <Sgeo> ais523, yes, but I'm not all that familiar with every single card
23:31:47 <ais523> Sgeo: it's very much a Constructed card, people don't expect it in Limited
23:31:53 <ais523> Sgeo: you can look them up
23:32:01 <ais523> Gatherer is the main resource, I think
23:32:09 <ais523> gatherer.wizards.com IIRC
23:32:17 <ais523> it's the "official" one
23:32:20 <pikhq_> The one's we're talking about are ones that most people who've been playing for a while will be aware of.
23:32:45 <Sgeo> Ah
23:33:02 <zzo38> Probably most the problem is that Constructed tournaments are played with those cards, rather than the cards themselves; combos are more difficult to make in Limited so they require both more skill and more luck in order to make any combo at all
23:33:07 <ais523> yep, when talking about the most broken cards of all time, most people will have heard of them
23:33:12 <ais523> (Necropotence, anyone?)
23:33:32 <pikhq_> That SOB.
23:33:35 <zzo38> I know the card Necropotence.
23:34:02 <Sgeo> What's good about Necropotence?
23:34:12 <ais523> Sgeo: pay life, get cards
23:34:16 <Sgeo> I mean, maybe against a milling deck, but... hmm
23:34:28 <pikhq_> It's *insanely* good card draw.
23:34:40 <zzo38> Of course is too bad if you use it too much; you will run out of cards or life or both
23:34:45 <ais523> it's one of only eight cards that's restricted in Vintage
23:34:55 <ais523> and five of them form a cycle
23:35:07 <ais523> zzo38: pay 19 life, draw 19 cards, if you have a combo deck you've probably won
23:35:07 <zzo38> Do you mean, Mox Ruby, Mox Emerald, etc?
23:35:11 <Sgeo> Power Eight?
23:35:11 <ais523> zzo38: yes
23:35:14 <ais523> Sgeo: yes
23:35:21 <pikhq_> And seven of them cost several hundred each.
23:35:30 <ais523> pikhq_: which one doesn't?
23:35:32 <Sgeo> ...what's the eight cost?
23:35:47 <pikhq_> ais523: Necropotence. It was printed recently.
23:35:57 <ais523> ah, OK
23:35:57 <pikhq_> (From The Vault: Exiled)
23:36:04 <Sgeo> Wait, wikipedia says Power Nine
23:36:09 <ais523> oh, another one's been banned?
23:36:12 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that is a good point; still, you might lose especially depending on turn number and opponent's cards
23:36:18 <ais523> so, what are the three not yet mentioned?
23:36:20 * ais523 tries to remember
23:36:20 <pikhq_> Also, it's more than 8 cards restricted in Vintage...
23:36:37 <ais523> pikhq_: are you confusing it with Legacy? or am I?
23:36:45 <pikhq_> You are.
23:36:56 <pikhq_> The entire Power 9 is banned in Legacy.
23:37:05 <ais523> ah, OK
23:37:20 <pikhq_> Legacy doesn't have a restricted list.
23:37:24 <ais523> and restricted in Vintage, right?
23:37:29 <ais523> so I did get it right, I think
23:37:34 <zzo38> I don't like Constructed anyways, and in Limited nothing is restricted/banned, with the exception of ante and physical dexterity cards.
23:37:34 <zzo38> However, I want to play Limited+Ante.
23:37:34 <zzo38> Where the cards you drafted are put for ante
23:38:17 <pikhq_> Also, 43 Vintage restricted cards.
23:38:28 <zzo38> I think, Alpha cards are also banned in all formats (including Vintage) unless you have card sleeves.
23:38:37 <pikhq_> zzo38: Yes, due to being marked.
23:38:51 <ais523> I stopped playing because I didn't like /Lorwyn/, but I played it quite a bit before then
23:39:18 * Sgeo notes Mox Lotus (yes, I know it can't be played in most formats)
23:39:33 <Sgeo> Are there any somewhat easy ways to get the 15 mana?
23:39:54 <ais523> Sgeo: if you badly need 15 mana, you can probably get it, but you're going to need to devote your deck to it
23:40:21 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Play green. :)
23:40:32 <pikhq_> ais523: Mox Lotus provides infinite mana, so... :)
23:41:05 <pikhq_> (literally; it taps for {infinity})
23:41:13 <ais523> oh right
23:41:20 <ais523> that's the un-set mana-producer, isn't it?
23:41:23 <zzo38> I dislike many of the rules of the game; so, make up a new game with similar but different rules, different cards, and no Constructed formats.
23:41:24 <pikhq_> Yup.
23:41:53 <pikhq_> zzo38: A friend and I have been hashing out ideas for a Magic-alike for quite a while now.
23:42:28 <ais523> I know I had a really good /Time Spiral/ block combo deck that could beat many of the other good decks around then
23:42:33 <ais523> and quite possibly newer good decks too
23:42:39 <zzo38> pikhq_: I have too; I will tell my ideas. We can make up stuff in this channel and so on.
23:42:44 <ais523> it was meant for Standard, but nearly all the cards came from the same block
23:42:57 <pikhq_> zzo38: Among other things: all spells have power/toughness.
23:43:04 <pikhq_> One doesn't counter spells, one deals damage to them.
23:43:10 <ais523> pikhq_: sounds vaguely like the Normish card game
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23:43:13 <pikhq_> Because, frankly, counterspell is utterly ridiculous.
23:43:13 <ais523> that never really got started
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23:43:43 <zzo38> pikhq_: That wasn't my idea, but you can do that. I had different ideas (where there still is counterspells).
23:44:23 <pikhq_> Template for Lightning Bolt now reads: "Lighting Bolt. {R}. Sorcery. Flash. Lightning Bolt strikes target creature or player. 3/1"
23:44:53 <zzo38> * No Constructed formats. * No state-based effect telling you that a aura which is also a creature is discarded. * No rule that Lands are not played as other card types (it is unnecessary; they can't be played as other types without a mana cost).
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23:45:18 <zzo38> pikhq_: Another of my ideas was that instead of damage to "target creature or player" it targets "target permanent or player".
23:45:19 <ais523> zzo38: what if they get a mana cost from somewhere?
23:45:38 <zzo38> ais523: Then they can be played as other types. It is a different game!
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23:45:50 <pikhq_> zzo38: I don't much like that as the typical burn spell.
23:46:02 <pikhq_> But certainly "Strike target permanent." is neat.
23:46:26 <ais523> pikhq_: but then you could use lightning bolt to blow up auras
23:46:29 <ais523> that's a pretty non-red thing to do
23:46:31 <zzo38> pikhq_: But, also in my suggestions, even though it says "target permanent or player", most permanents are unaffected by damage.
23:46:40 <pikhq_> ais523: There's a reason I say "not as the typical burn spell"
23:46:54 <Taneb> Right, my webpage is now complete up to MIBBLLII
23:47:04 <Taneb> I just need to add Luigi and Brook
23:47:12 <ais523> I'm not sure if I can think of an effect that hits all of creatures, players, and auras anywhere in Magic
23:47:25 <ais523> or, indeed, just both players and auras
23:47:27 <pikhq_> {B}{B}{B} Sorcery. Strike target permanent. 1/1
23:47:46 <Taneb> Anyone here play Sopio?
23:47:47 <Sgeo> strike?
23:47:51 <ais523> pikhq_: would lands have 1 toughness?
23:47:57 <ais523> basic lands, anyway?
23:48:01 <zzo38> pikhq_: Your ideas sem good but is different game than mine
23:48:21 <pikhq_> Sgeo: I invented that as a scheme for saying "This deals damage equal to its power"
23:48:42 <pikhq_> ais523: Mmmm, I'd be inclined to give basic lands higher toughness, and more powerful lands lower toughness.
23:48:47 <zzo38> * Mana burn included. * Use TeXnicard, and possibly other program make open source rule enforcement programs. * Drawing a card when you are unable is an immediate loss, not a state-based effect. * Zones are now named as follows: hand zone, draw zone, discard zone, stack zone, in-play zone, exile zone.
23:48:55 <Sgeo> pikhq_, oh, you're talking about your own game?
23:49:42 <pikhq_> ais523: It feels like the difficulty of getting rid of a mana source should be inversely proportional to how good it is.
23:49:46 <ais523> interesting
23:49:50 <Taneb> http://www.vandoorn.talktalk.net/esoteric/
23:49:55 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Yeah.
23:50:47 <pikhq_> Perhaps give basic lands 2 or 3 toughness. And 0 power, of course.
23:52:24 <zzo38> * Subtypes no longer depend on types (and there is no Tribal type). * Planeswalker are different, now count as players and permanents like my Playercard idea (also change the name to not confuse with "Plainswalk"). * Attack/block/combat damage is assigned and you can do stuff in between, but nonexistent sources never deal damage (even non-combat damage).
23:53:09 <ais523> zzo38: "Plainswalk" is very rarely used just because it sounds too much like "planeswalker"
23:53:43 <pikhq_> Clearly WotC should print Nicol Bolas, Plains.
23:53:59 <pikhq_> And a card with "Nicol Bolas, Plainswalk"
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23:55:26 <zzo38> * Conceding subgames is not allowed; only the main game can be conceded (although you are still allowed to do so during a subgame). * Every object has an initial state or a lack of it. * No state-based effect causing tokens out of play ceasing to exist (it becomes unnecessary; read ahead).
23:55:30 <Sgeo> "(Although it was originally a joke, the mechanic was recycled completely seriously in the Time Travel-heavy Time Spiral block, albeit not for creatures.)"
23:55:34 <Sgeo> That sounds interesting
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23:56:53 <zzo38> * Objects moving between zones cease to exist (except for stack->play, play->phaseout, phaseout->play); a new object is created in the destination zone from the initial state of the old object. If it had none, nothing is created. * Copies of spells on the stack are also tokens.
23:57:37 <pikhq_> There isn't a phased-out zone anymore.
23:58:03 <pikhq_> And objects moving between zones do effectively cease to exist, and you create a new object with the same state.
23:58:34 <pikhq_> (with a few exceptions for particular, very odd things that only happen when you're playing with cards from Alpha)
23:59:14 <zzo38> I know that, but I am doing a entirely different game, with entirely different cards and so on. So, it does use some old rules.
23:59:20 <zzo38> And some new rules. But not all.
23:59:50 <pikhq_> Also, you realise that the current phasing rules are the first ones that have been simple enough to fit as reminder text, right? :)
00:00:03 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes; but you must know rule about state-based effect causing tokens to cease to exist; in my rules, a new object is simply not created because the old object had no initial state.
00:01:44 -!- oerjan has set topic: /fnord/Friendship Is Magic: The Gathering | elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http:\\\/\\\/codu.org\\\/logs\\\/_esoteric\\\/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY./fnord.
00:01:44 <Sgeo> kallisti, update
00:03:34 <zzo38> * You can concede any time except in the middle of an atomic ante effect (I am not sure if the Magic: the Gathering rules mention atomic ante effects). The opponent may optionally continue in order to prove they have overmate.
00:05:05 <zzo38> * Even though cards cannot be bought/sold, each card has a cash value. These values are used to partially determine your score in a tournament.
00:05:09 <Taneb> I've made my page slightly fancier
00:05:14 <oerjan> that phrase has _way_ too many google hits.
00:07:08 <oerjan> ah i thought the google estimate might be off, it gave up at 103 hits
00:07:56 <zzo38> * You can still concede to prevent additional anteing and/or doubling (as in backgammon).
00:08:36 <oerjan> and just before, it estimated more than 3 million.
00:09:08 <Taneb> Everyone look at my site and satisfy my need for acknowledgement!
00:09:13 <Taneb> Page, really
00:09:14 <Taneb> http://www.vandoorn.talktalk.net/esoteric/
00:09:58 <zzo38> I see nothing other than a heading, a single sentence with a link, and four names of esolangs. You need to add more, isn't it?
00:10:14 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: O no, I go for walk now...).
00:10:23 <oerjan> very minimalistic.
00:10:37 <Taneb> Click the headings
00:10:55 <Gregor> Taneb: You should make them look clickable.
00:11:19 <Taneb> I'll work on that after I have slept
00:11:23 <Taneb> It's gotten to tomorrow here
00:11:25 <Taneb> Goodnight
00:11:27 <oerjan> ah for once IE greatly enhances my browsing experience
00:11:43 <oerjan> (by showing everything without clicking.)
00:12:11 <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBgMeunuviE <-- behold and be amazed
00:12:58 <oerjan> in fact it seems to have ignored style completely.
00:13:59 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: goodnight).
00:18:16 <Sgeo> "You know those useless snow-covered lands from Ice Age? Not so useless as of Coldsnap — 11 years later!"
00:18:17 <Sgeo> o.O
00:20:48 <pikhq_> They weren't even that useless in Ice Age.
00:20:59 <pikhq_> They've just got much more use after they finished the block.
00:24:59 <ais523> everyone but me hates coldsnap, though
00:25:04 <ais523> besides, coldsnap is part of ice age block
00:25:09 <ais523> and homelands doesn't exist
00:27:37 <Sgeo> WTF http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=980
00:29:53 <ais523> Sgeo: that one was, umm, rather pointless
00:29:57 <ais523> the mechanic's only been used once every again
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00:30:05 <ais523> and it was in an un-set
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00:30:19 <Sgeo> Sounds lengthy
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00:45:14 <Sgeo> With planeswalkers, is it more typical to get their loyalties to 1 + its .. is ultimate the right word, so that it can be used again, or just get it to ultimate and let it die?
00:48:07 <oerjan> ais523: you know about wikipedia customs - would it be a good idea if i simply deleted the code examples from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Look-and-say_sequence ? they seem to be starting to breed lately.
00:49:01 <ais523> you could transwiki them to Rosetta Code if the licenses match, I guess
00:49:08 <oerjan> argh
00:49:13 <ais523> no idea what would happen if you simply deleted them
00:49:53 <oerjan> well i just have a vague impression that isn't place for it.
00:50:29 <oerjan> (i also looked in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Computer_science/Manual_of_style_(computer_science))
00:50:53 <oerjan> *the place
00:51:33 <Jafet> Just delete it; if it's nobody's pet, then no one will add it back
00:51:36 <oerjan> an alternative would be simply to remove the javascript one that was added today.
00:51:42 <Jafet> ie. "consensus"
00:51:56 <oerjan> well, there was this guy cleaning up the python version before
00:53:29 <oerjan> well there is a point in the manual about not having multiple versions
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00:56:24 <oerjan> actually it seems i'll be doing nothing.
00:56:47 <zzo38> Taneb: You need to make it fully expanded when JavaScript disabled.
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00:58:18 <Sgeo> "You may think that the “lucky charms” (Crystal Rod, Iron Star, Ivory Cup, Throne of Bone, and Wooden Sphere) are bad, but our testing shows that most beginners are drawn to them and only learn over time that they are not as good as they seem (usually because a more advanced player tells them). That is why we keep including them in the basic set."
00:58:24 <Sgeo> Why are the lucky charms bad?
01:09:10 <Sgeo> If creatures without flying can't attack you (with Form of the Dragon), and Green tends not to have flying...
01:09:23 <Sgeo> Is Form of the Dragon better against Green than against other colors?
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01:28:40 <pikhq> http://www.familyresearchinst.org/ So, my little sister seems to think that these guys do good science.
01:28:45 <ais523> Sgeo: quite possibly; Green generally has decent flying defence, but not flying offense
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01:28:51 <ais523> as in, reach is quite a common ability in green
01:29:14 <pikhq> I am *so* not coming out until I move.
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01:32:19 * pikhq_ mutters at Internet
01:32:22 <oklopol> out of the closet?
01:32:59 <pikhq_> I'm bi and atheist. So, yes. Twice over.
01:33:23 <oklopol> oh i didn't open the page so i figured i just didn't get what you meant
01:33:52 <pikhq_> They think that homosexuality is EVIL. And that they have science to prove it.
01:34:04 <pikhq_> The only journal they were published in isn't peer-reviewed.
01:34:25 <oklopol> yeah i gathered that from "the 'right' to practise homosexuality"
01:34:43 <pikhq_> Also, their only 'scientist', a doctor of psychology, was removed from the APA for ethics violations.
01:35:29 <oklopol> what if your sisters read #esoteric logs
01:35:39 <oklopol> sister reads, although that was accidentally grammatical
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01:36:06 <oklopol> i would've never imagined you bi for some reason
01:36:45 <pikhq_> Oh?
01:37:03 <Jafet> "Screw you, god!"
01:38:23 <oklopol> hmm, perhaps that is because i've never associated you with anything remotely sexual
01:39:14 <oklopol> (unlike most people here who i keep thinking about sexually)
01:39:24 <pikhq_> Ah. Yeah, I don't usually talk about sexual things.
01:39:27 <oerjan> ...right.
01:39:29 <oklopol> yeah
01:39:47 <oklopol> you have taken part in such conversations, but you are then even more academic than usual.
01:40:09 <pikhq_> Part of that is the result of a fundamentalist Christian upbringing.
01:40:29 <pikhq_> Which ~/media/porn loves contradicting.
01:41:07 <oklopol> :P
01:41:55 -!- pikhq has joined.
01:42:11 <oklopol> well upbringing doesn't always tell you everything, my parents always encouraged me to go my own way and i'm still very careful what i say.
01:42:14 <pikhq> Fuck my Internet with something rusty.
01:42:16 <oklopol> as you've surely noticed
01:42:29 <oklopol> from the color of my penis
01:42:37 <pikhq> :P
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01:45:46 <oklopol> when i was something like 5 my father once told me he would love me no matter what i chose to do with my life. i asked him what if i became a serial killer. he said he'd still love me. (i added some emotion to make this more accessible to non-finns.)
01:46:01 <oklopol> *once
01:47:21 <oklopol> *-once
01:48:52 <oklopol> pikhq: did you read any of their articles?
01:51:17 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
01:51:44 <pikhq> Yes.
01:52:08 <pikhq> It's a couple of crackpots.
01:52:11 <oklopol> can you explain their arguments in layman's terms
01:52:20 <oklopol> and what's their definition of evil
01:52:36 <oklopol> does it assume the christian god
01:52:39 <pikhq> Their definition? Judeo-Christian God says "no".
01:53:38 <oklopol> weren't you a gay-bashing christian when you were your sister's age
01:53:42 <pikhq> They ramble on a bit, but basically say shit like "gayness comes from child sex abuse" and "gay sex is more pleasurable than straight sex, therefore if we accept gayness people will die"
01:53:46 <pikhq> Actually, no.
01:54:26 <pikhq> I was a Christian then, but gaybashing? Hah.
01:56:29 <pikhq> It's a little bit hard to be gaybashing when you know most of the gay people at your school.
01:56:44 <oklopol> well gayness is kind of dangerous, what with us running out of people and all.
01:56:56 <oklopol> everyone needs to procreate while we still can
01:57:42 <oklopol> i mean can you believe the moon is still completely empty
01:58:04 <pikhq> Yeah... Need to get a scientist to lie and say there's oil on the moon.
01:58:19 <pikhq> It'll be liberated this time next year!
01:58:50 <oklopol> :D
01:58:54 <oklopol> \o/
01:58:55 <myndzi> |
01:58:55 <myndzi> |\
01:59:28 <oerjan> ^celebrate oil
01:59:28 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
01:59:29 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
01:59:29 <myndzi> >\ /| /< | /´\ |\ /| | >\ /| /<
01:59:29 <myndzi> /´¯|_) /'\
01:59:29 <myndzi> (_| (_| |_)
02:00:12 <Sgeo> Ah, ok
02:00:21 <Sgeo> We did a Booster Draft
02:00:33 <Sgeo> (Except perhaps not as strict about talking)
02:01:05 <oklopol> pikhq: the problem is obviously no one will believe a single scientist unless he manages to get multiple publications in a peer-reviewed journal.
02:01:40 <pikhq> I think we could get a bunch of astronomers to agree to the claim.
02:01:52 <pikhq> And perhaps an astrophysicist or two.
02:01:57 <oklopol> and perhaps some astrologists
02:02:14 <pikhq> Heck, won't even need to work for *that*.
02:02:25 <pikhq> If it sounds like a neat idea, the astrologists will go with it. :P
02:03:55 <oerjan> the moon is the most fluid planet, of course there's oil there.
02:05:40 <oklopol> i hear there's water there. and not just one molecule, but like hundreds of them.
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02:14:43 <Sgeo> Honestly, I think I really really hate the "collectible" part of CCG
02:14:57 <Sgeo> Paying money on a regular basis to be able to play a game
02:15:01 <pikhq> Agreed. It's the weakest feature of Magic.
02:15:10 <Sgeo> More money = more versitality.
02:15:13 <Sgeo> It's kind of bleh
02:15:43 <pikhq> Particularly the fact that there's a lot of deckspace that most people can't access.
02:15:51 * Sgeo hmms at http://cockatrice.de/
02:16:40 <Sgeo> (which was linked to from reddit)
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02:17:18 <Sgeo> (I know there are other programs like it, but I forget their name offhand)
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02:23:04 <Sgeo> http://magiccards.info/uqc/en/6.html
02:23:12 <Sgeo> That looks hard to deal with
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03:34:23 <zzo38> One of the rules in my new idea of game similar to Magic: the Gathering, is each card is worth a certain number of poker chips, and this value is printed on the card. It has no effect during a duel, but whatever cards you drafted could be traded for poker chips and poker chips for card other people sold to you, and so on. Poker chips earned for winning a duel depends on backgammon doubling, overmate, and so on.
03:36:38 <zzo38> What is your idea of this idea?
03:37:56 <ais523> zzo38: you should write Mornington Crescent rulesets
03:38:52 <zzo38> ais523: I think I might; I do have a map of the London Underground. So, I will do so after I make a larger copy, and make up some cards.
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04:17:59 <zzo38> Ideas for addition optimisation flag for Haskell compiler: -fuse-optimisation-files -fassume-no-error -fcrashable -fauto-strictify -fsafe-core -fall-modules-together -fmemory-threshold -fdisk-threshold -falgebraic -ftry-everything
04:22:14 <ion> -funroll-loops -O9999
04:23:48 <FooBarBazQux> -fdebug-itself
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04:29:19 <oerjan> why would you want to fuse optimisation files anyhow.
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05:09:21 <oerjan> dammit r/physics why have you combined the subreddit links in the sidebar
05:13:06 <oerjan> i _hate_ when things change :(
05:20:12 <oerjan> hm... if i change to visiting r/particlephysics first, that _does_ have four of my other favorites linked in its sidebar
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05:20:24 <oerjan> (what do you _mean_ i could register?)
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10:44:08 <cheater_> darmok
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10:49:05 <Taneb> HTML really could do with a "yesscript" element
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10:50:51 <cheater_> html is a very failed technology
10:51:05 <Taneb> It's pretty widespread
10:52:16 <fizzie> What, someone uses HTML? How bizarre. I thought everyone was all SMIL or whatever.
10:53:10 <cheater_> Taneb: so is HPV-C
10:54:19 <cheater_> fizzie: i'm just waiting for the whole SPDY/Rust stack to close in on html and do away with it
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11:10:42 <Taneb> Everybody look at my updated website at http://www.vandoorn.talktalk.net/esoteric/ so I can fulfil my need for appreciation
11:11:17 <Taneb> And so it can be tested for browsers with Javascript disabled
11:23:14 <cheater_> it is amazing
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11:26:56 <Taneb> Yay
11:27:35 <cheater> Taneb: it is amazing
11:28:16 <cheater> does your brainfucky thing translate to haskell
11:30:09 <Taneb> Not really, haskell doesn't like lambda-y recursion
11:30:21 <Taneb> But it's close
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11:33:51 <cheater> that's too bad
11:34:11 <cheater> i had my hopes up
11:40:12 <Taneb> :t join id
11:40:13 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: m = (->) (m a)
11:40:14 <lambdabot> Probable cause: `id' is applied to too few arguments
11:40:14 <lambdabot> In the first argument of `join', namely `id'
11:40:18 <Taneb> That's why
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11:42:30 <zzo38> I think pattern matching of numbers in Haskell, instead of Num class should be another one: class IntegerLiteral x where { fromInteger :: Integer -> x; eqInteger :: Integer -> x -> Bool; } And the similar thing for fractional number literal too
11:43:15 <cheater> Taneb: that's ok, i still wish there were a bf-like high-level language that compiles to low-level languages like haskell (:
11:43:38 <cheater> zzo38: that was completely out of context and made no sense
11:44:11 <zzo38> cheater: I know, but I have just connected
11:44:48 <cheater> zzo38: :)
11:45:23 <cheater> zzo38: btw, have you looked at type promotion? it's a fairly recent type system extension for haskell
11:45:55 <zzo38> Yes I have looked.
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11:46:40 <Taneb> Is there an option that allows me to construct infinite types?
11:47:23 <cheater> i don't think there is
11:47:35 <cheater> but you might try asking in #haskell
11:48:46 <zzo38> There are many extensions I wanted but that the Haskell people hate
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11:58:23 <Taneb> Apaprently there isn't such an option
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12:05:17 <cheater> Taneb: how did you make it apparent ?
12:07:26 <Taneb> Asked in Haskell
12:08:19 <Taneb> *#haskell
12:08:26 <Taneb> Also searched the flag reference
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12:12:10 <cheater> ah ok cool
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13:30:18 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater, fuck off.
13:36:43 <cheater> Phantom_Hoover: no can do sir
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14:03:11 <kallisti> I wish there was a definite order for numeric whois replies on IRC....
14:18:38 <cheater> why do you?
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14:39:16 <Taneb> Hello
14:39:33 <Taneb> The topic's ///, right?
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14:58:02 <cheater> yes.
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15:18:37 <fizzie> "Please contact the server administrator, [no address given] and inform them of the time the error occurred, --"
15:18:49 <fizzie> I'll get right on that.
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16:37:48 <Taneb> > "test"
16:37:49 <lambdabot> "test"
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18:13:21 <Taneb> God I'm bored
18:13:37 <Taneb> I'm watching /Harry Hill/
18:13:40 <fizzie> Better that than being a bored God. At least for others.
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18:26:31 <Taneb> Why did nobody tell me Antiques Roadshow was on!?
18:27:17 <fizzie> Why would you watch such drivel when the Finnish presidential election is on!?
18:27:31 <fizzie> Though it's a really boring one, there's two candidates and an obvious winner.
18:27:34 <Taneb> Can't get it here
18:27:38 <fizzie> (It's the second round.)
18:27:42 <Taneb> I'm in a valley
18:30:04 <Taneb> Wow, I didn't know that channel existed
18:30:20 <Taneb> Is Sauli Niinisto the right election?
18:31:45 <Taneb> The Finnish election is the only thing in English Language Euronews
18:36:15 <fizzie> Yes.
18:36:28 <fizzie> Sauli is a slimy guy.
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18:41:57 <fizzie> And apparently also the only possible winner, too. (530k uncounted votes, 660k lead.)
18:42:31 <Taneb> Unless the other guy cheats
18:42:56 <Taneb> There's one country in Africa where the president got 23000% or something of the votes
18:43:41 <monqy> that's a lot of votes
18:45:57 <fizzie> In my city, currently Sauli has 66.6% of the votes. Certainly this is a sign.
18:47:08 <Taneb> In my not-city, Guy Opperman got 43.2% of the votes.
18:48:58 <fizzie> Is he the Guy?
18:49:26 <Taneb> Just a wannabe.
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19:05:56 <monqy> `welcome Iambdabot
19:06:08 <HackEgo> Iambdabot: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
19:07:36 <monqy> @ask monqy hi
19:07:37 <lambdabot> You can tell yourself!
19:08:25 <Taneb> @ask monqy hi
19:08:25 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
19:08:37 <monqy> @ask Taneb hi
19:08:38 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
19:08:56 <Iambdabot> @ask lambdabot please go away
19:08:57 <lambdabot> Nice try ;)
19:09:26 <Taneb> ^echo fungot
19:09:26 <fungot> fungot fungot
19:09:37 <Taneb> ^echo I am Taneb, who is also Ngevd
19:09:37 <fungot> I am Taneb, who is also Ngevd I am Taneb, who is also Ngevd
19:09:49 <Taneb> ^echo fungot keeps repeating itself.
19:09:49 <fungot> fungot keeps repeating itself. fungot keeps repeating itself.
19:09:55 <Taneb> fungot
19:09:55 <fungot> Taneb: for me, was there ever a method written that could be fnord
19:09:58 <Taneb> ^style
19:09:58 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
19:10:12 <Taneb> ^style alice
19:10:12 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
19:10:23 <Taneb> fungot: does this include his mathematical papers?
19:10:24 <fungot> Taneb: " no, no!" said the earl. " what, you know. there's glory for you!"
19:10:24 <shachaf> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg Iambdabot @messages' to read them.
19:10:30 <Taneb> @messages
19:10:30 <lambdabot> You don't have any new messages.
19:10:39 <Taneb> THAT'S WHAT YOU THINK
19:11:30 <Iambdabot> lambdabot said 5m ago: I'm not fit to be in #esoteric please kick me
19:11:59 <monqy> @ask Iambdabot hi
19:12:00 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
19:12:03 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg Iambdabot @messages' to read them.
19:12:27 <Taneb> @messages
19:12:27 <lambdabot> You don't have any new messages.
19:12:32 <Taneb> Aaaaaaaaaaah
19:12:39 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 0 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to not read them.
19:12:44 <Iambdabot> Iambdabot said 0s ago: wait what
19:12:44 <lambdabot> Iambdabot: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:13:05 <lambdabot> Iambdabot: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
19:13:17 <Taneb> > "what is going on?"
19:13:17 <Gregor> O_O
19:13:18 <lambdabot> "what is going on?"
19:13:27 <monqy> @messages
19:13:28 <lambdabot> Taneb asked 5m 2s ago: hi
19:13:30 <lambdabot> help.
19:13:33 <monqy> hi
19:13:44 <Iambdabot> >
19:13:45 <lambdabot> not an expression: `'
19:13:50 <Taneb> I reckon it's glogbot who's behind the bot rebellion
19:13:53 <lambdabot> > 1 + 1
19:13:59 <Gregor> glogbot is innocent!
19:14:02 <Iambdabot> > >
19:14:03 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `>'
19:14:11 <Taneb> Well, I know it's not Pietbot.
19:14:21 <Iambdabot> > I blame Jafet
19:14:22 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `I'Not in scope: `blame'Not in scope: data c...
19:14:40 <lambdabot> Jafet: i blame u
19:16:51 -!- Pietbot has joined.
19:17:05 <Taneb> Pietbot still doesn't do anything
19:17:24 <monqy> hi
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19:18:31 <Gregor> !c printf("%d\n", 0 || 2);
19:18:36 <EgoBot> 1
19:18:36 <Taneb> )df iiisso
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19:18:50 <Taneb> ^char 41
19:19:05 <Taneb> :t chr
19:19:06 <lambdabot> Int -> Char
19:19:10 <Taneb> > chr 41
19:19:10 <lambdabot> ')'
19:19:17 <Taneb> > chr 32
19:19:18 <lambdabot> ' '
19:19:37 <monqy> is )df iiisso a pietbot deadfish thing
19:19:44 <Taneb> Yes
19:19:52 <Taneb> Or it will be when it works
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19:23:47 <Gregor> Hmmm, does the C spec define the logical operators to always evaluate to 0 or 1, or is that a property of GCC?
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19:26:38 <fizzie> ^chr 41
19:26:38 <fungot> )
19:26:49 <kallisti> Gregor: which C spec?
19:27:42 <fizzie> Gregor: "Each of the operators yields 1 if the specified relation is true and 0 if it is false."
19:27:52 <fizzie> (C99, but I really do think C90 had that property too.)
19:29:14 <fizzie> "Each of the operators < (less than), > (greater than), <= (less than or equal to), and >= (greater than or equal to) shall yield 1 if the specified relation is true and 0 if it is false." (That one C89 draft that's floating around.)
19:29:14 <shachaf> !! is a very old idiom, I think.
19:29:55 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't bother checking !. But it, too.
19:30:45 <fizzie> "The || operator shall yield 1 if either of its operands compare unequal to 0; otherwise, it yields 0" might've been the more relevant quote.
19:31:12 <Gregor> Ohyeah, should've thought about !!.
19:31:22 <Gregor> I'm so glad this channel is a better ##c than ##c X-D
19:31:25 <Deewiant> Heh, so instead of '!!x' you can do 'x || false'?
19:32:05 <Gregor> Well, "false" is only meaningful with the utterly sinful stdbool.h
19:32:12 <Gregor> But x || 0, I suppose.
19:33:00 <fizzie> Or x && 1, obviously.
19:35:25 <fizzie> "Or x ^^ 0 OH WAIT no logical xor."
19:36:49 <Gregor> Logical xor is !=, except that != doesn't have the same properties of C's non-booleans as the other logical operators do, so nya ^^
19:39:20 <kallisti> ...now only if there was a biconditional. :>
19:40:09 <Gregor> Get back to prologin' yer prolog you prolog prolog prologue.
19:40:21 <kallisti> (spoiler: biconditional is == )
19:41:00 <Gregor> With all the same caveats, naturalismo.
19:41:04 <kallisti> yes
19:41:14 <Gregor> But still.
19:41:15 <Gregor> Get back to prologin' yer prolog you prolog prolog prologue.
19:41:31 * kallisti has actually been learning a little Prolog
19:41:35 <kallisti> haven't written anything though.
19:42:22 <kallisti> I've been too busy writing an obscene Haskell-to-C library for the plugin system of a bot written in C.
19:42:47 <kallisti> just to familiarize myself with such things.
19:43:16 <fizzie> #define lop(v00,v01,v10,v11,a,b) (a?(b?v11:v10):(b?v01:v00)) and then you never need to touch a logical operator any more, since instead of a && b you can just write the more clearer lop(0,0,0,1,a,b). Except it doesn't short-circuit right.
19:43:43 <Gregor> PERFECT
19:43:47 <fizzie> Also put some parens in that macro, man.
19:43:58 <kallisti> what does lop stand for.
19:44:02 <Gregor> Logical op, of course
19:44:04 <fizzie> Yes.
19:44:12 <fizzie> Also "lop your hand off".
19:44:21 <kallisti> is it like... a thing
19:44:24 <kallisti> with a name
19:44:26 <kallisti> elsewhere
19:44:29 <kallisti> in maths
19:44:43 <fizzie> I'm sure that wasn't the first use, but probably not like that.
19:45:14 <kallisti> you could call it THE TRUTH TABLE OPERATOR
19:45:38 <Taneb> What if you want a ternary operation?
19:45:47 <fizzie> Or BiTruFu, for binary truth function.
19:46:00 <fizzie> You just define a lop3.
19:46:08 <fizzie> Or TeTruFu, if you like.
19:47:19 <fizzie> Or a int ntrufu(int arity, ...); with <stdarg.h>.
19:48:00 <fizzie> The name fits within the 6 significant-for-external-identifiers characters and all.
19:49:27 <fizzie> ntrufu(2,0,0,0,1,a,b) is objectively speaking 5.25 times better than a&&b.
19:49:47 <fizzie> (Yes, I just counted the number of characters. Are you saying that's not objective?)
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19:53:28 <Taneb> Cunningly, my school has decided to teach us the Statistics 2 module before Statistics 1
19:54:14 <monqy> how cunning
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20:25:32 <ion> In the local polytechnic the mechanics classes constantly used things we had just supposedly learned in the algebra classes. Which was just fine, except that for some reason the algebra classes were exactly one week late from that schedule.
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20:44:00 <oerjan> `log elliott_>
20:44:33 <oerjan> `echo hi
20:44:33 <HackEgo> 2011-10-14.txt:20:23:13: <elliott_> `quote
20:44:37 <HackEgo> hi
20:46:36 <oerjan> `log elliott_>
20:46:58 <HackEgo> 2011-07-29.txt:23:56:38: <elliott_> hmm
20:47:50 <Gregor> oerjan: Trying to imagine a world with elliott in it again?
20:48:59 <Gregor> fizzie: Can we have an elliott mode for fungot?
20:49:00 <fungot> Gregor: the default garbage collector is a refrigerator, thermodynamically speaking. :p
20:49:26 <Gregor> Well that's gotta be verbatim. Too insightful.
20:49:57 <Gregor> ?style
20:49:58 <lambdabot> <no location info>: not an expression: `'
20:50:01 <Gregor> Err
20:50:03 <Gregor> Forgot the prefix >_>
20:50:04 <Gregor> ^style
20:50:04 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
20:50:11 <zzo38> O, yes... I don't know, though... You can still occasionally get proper sentences from random generation too
20:50:33 <zzo38> It still seems out of context though
20:50:47 <Gregor> Well, it wasn't just syntactically correct, it actually makes sense. Of course it's not in context, but taken as an independent statement it's internally sensible.
20:51:09 <zzo38> Gregor: Yes I know, I noticed that too
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20:54:28 <oerjan> <Gregor> Logical xor is !=, except that != doesn't have the same properties of C's non-booleans as the other logical operators do, so nya ^^
20:54:37 <oerjan> wait, what properties does it lack?
20:54:56 <Taneb> I have had a cunning idea
20:54:57 <zzo38> Such as using different nonzero values as boolean I suppose
20:55:33 <Taneb> A dashing esolang
20:55:45 <oerjan> oh hm right it doesn't treat different nonzeros as equivalent
20:58:05 <zzo38> But of course Haskell does have actual boolean type and /= means logical XOR there; I have used it for that purpose, in fact. In C and in BASIC, I have occasionally needed logical XOR (more so than in Haskell), and can use ^ usually in C if I know it is 0 or 1, I can use the ^= operator in C for that purpose.
21:00:12 <oerjan> <ion> In the local polytechnic the mechanics classes constantly used things we had just supposedly learned in the algebra classes. Which was just fine, except that for some reason the algebra classes were exactly one week late from that schedule.
21:00:22 <oerjan> someone _clearly_ hadn't read up on murphy's law.
21:01:34 <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0Bn4m6dQbI O_O
21:11:41 <fizzie> QBasic has the logical IMP operator, that's pretty rare.
21:12:17 <fizzie> (It has the boolean operators NOT, AND, OR, XOR, EQV and IMP.)
21:12:29 <e^[i_pi]> IMP is rare?
21:12:56 <fizzie> As an operator. As far as I know.
21:13:28 <ion> fizzie: Heh, interesting.
21:13:55 <fizzie> Also: "If the expressions evaluate to 0 or -1, a Boolean operation returns 0 or -1 as the result. Because Boolean operators do bit-wise calculations, using values other than 0 for false and -1 for true may produce unexpected results."
21:14:34 <ion> gregor: Yeah, i *love* that one. Too bad it’s out of sync.
21:14:45 <e^[i_pi]> Any programming languages with converse nonimplication?
21:15:15 <e^[i_pi]> a </- b
21:17:52 <zzo38> fizzie: I know about all the operators QBASIC has; although, they all act bitwise (and I do occasionally mix bitwise with logical)
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21:24:51 <Gregor> ion: Yeah, the sync issue is annoying :(
21:25:16 <oerjan> the nice thing about using 0 and -1 is that you don't really need to distinguish logical and bitwise operators
21:25:48 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, and I have used that. Both in BASIC, and in Forth.
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21:55:09 <zzo38> Oops, now my computer says [04:45/02:20] for a music file it is playing
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21:57:10 <Vorpal> <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0Bn4m6dQbI O_O <-- wow... I never heard anything like that on accordion before...
21:58:02 <Vorpal> also that is my favourite movement from Vivaldi's Summer
22:06:43 <Vorpal> night →
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22:15:08 <zzo38> I am now writing a Haskell preprocessor; I wrote much of it already. But not yet completely.
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22:23:39 <zzo38> So please tell me if you have any ideas/suggestions.
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22:39:19 <zzo38> Currently I have: * 0b110100 for binary integer literals. * 0'x' for ASCII/Unicode number of character literals. * {"..."} for WEB-style chunks. * #I to include file in path. * #J for wildcard includes (not currently working). * #D to define macros. * Various built-in macros.
22:53:13 <ion> You should ask that on #haskell.
22:54:57 <oerjan> i think it is rather predictable that #haskell won't like it
22:59:13 <oerjan> if someone hasn't seen it yet http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2012/02/01/every-odd-integer-larger-than-1-is-the-sum-of-at-most-five-primes/
23:05:21 <zzo38> I think people on #haskell hate a lot of my things
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23:09:10 <itidus21> oerjan: does that suggest 5 dimensional objects?
23:10:15 <itidus21> no i am reading too much into it
23:10:50 <oerjan> itidus21: well the (weak goldbach) conjecture is that 3 is enough, actually
23:11:03 <oerjan> primes that is, dunno about dimensions :)
23:11:45 <oerjan> *are
23:12:42 <itidus21> hmmmmm... its ... i was reading the sentence wrong to begin with.. i think i'll just let it go
23:13:06 <oerjan> i'm not even going to delve into the proof enough to find out whether higher dimensional objects were used, but i doubt it.
23:14:28 <oerjan> itidus21: well half the comments on reddit were about the title being unambiguous, so nothing to worry about :P
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23:19:44 * kallisti can't wait for -XGeneralizedAlgebraicDataPolyKindInstanceFamilies
23:21:23 <oerjan> s/PolyKind/PolyConstraintKind/
23:23:22 <kallisti> soon to be incorporated into the -XOneMillionSpecialSubsetsOfDependentTyping extension.
23:23:48 <oerjan> nice rant http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/p5x53/every_odd_number_greater_than_1_is_the_sum_of_at/c3n1n14
23:25:05 <oerjan> kallisti: nah, oleg will prove you can actually embed full dependent typing into them
23:25:23 <oerjan> not in a way sane humans can _use_, though
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23:44:13 <zzo38> How many people hate my Haskell preprocessor, already?
23:45:11 <oklopol> at most 53, on this channel
23:45:38 <oerjan> i don't hate it. i probably wouldn't use it, though.
23:45:54 <oklopol> i don't use haskell do i don't anything your haskell preprocessor
23:46:12 <oerjan> also oklopol no use grammar
23:46:30 <oklopol> *son't
23:46:50 * oerjan swat oklopol -----###
23:46:50 <zzo38> OK, probably you won't use it; but would you use any Haskell preprocessor at all?
23:47:43 <oerjan> hardly.
23:47:49 <oklopol> i only use postprocessors that transform the program after its effects have been processed my brain.
23:48:03 <oklopol> for instance beer and whiskey
23:49:29 <zzo38> I do suppose, I could later on, write a Haskell postprocessor as well, using the compiler plugins feature, maybe
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23:54:20 <kallisti> ......god damnit irssi
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23:56:50 <ColonelJ> ok I've been trying as hard as possible to make this language less esoteric but no one's buying it yet http://pastebin.com/hD890kVg
23:58:11 <ColonelJ> it's stack based and factorable like a concatenative language
23:59:11 <ColonelJ> indentation based like python to save on too many extra chars
23:59:19 <kallisti> sorry, you'll have to direct inquiries of that nature to our sister channel #un-esoteric
23:59:31 <ColonelJ> not esoteric enough?
00:00:05 <ColonelJ> what if I told you if and else were implemented in the language
00:00:12 <kallisti> well, you said you need help making it less esoteric.
00:00:13 <ColonelJ> as in they aren't reserved words
00:00:25 <ColonelJ> oh nah I just came here for lulz
00:00:52 <kallisti> I would say: okay
00:00:53 <oerjan> well i would certainly hope the language has no reserved words that readable, sheesh
00:01:07 <ColonelJ> there aren't any reserved words at all in fact
00:01:56 <ColonelJ> @if?[bool ~:ifchain]: #c#f
00:01:56 <ColonelJ> @ic?ifchain{>$b[] >$sb[=b []=sb ic]} ic
00:01:56 <ColonelJ> c if_t: .sb(f)
00:01:56 <ColonelJ> @elif?[ifchain bool ~:ifchain]:#f if_t: .sb(f)
00:01:56 <ColonelJ> @else?[* ifchain ~:*]:#f .sb(f) .b#
00:01:56 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
00:01:57 <ColonelJ> @endif?[* ifchain:*]:.b#
00:03:23 <ColonelJ> @true?[bool]: 0 0 =
00:03:23 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
00:04:01 <kallisti> are you sure bool isn't a reserved word?
00:04:32 <ColonelJ> well it's one of the built-in types
00:04:42 <kallisti> BLASPHEMOUS
00:04:45 <ColonelJ> if you want to you can override bool with a different type in an inner-scope
00:04:49 <ColonelJ> so don't fear
00:04:56 <kallisti> ah good.
00:05:01 <ColonelJ> also all types are optional you never have to state them anywhere
00:05:16 <ColonelJ> it's a dynamically typed language apart from where you specify types
00:06:05 <ColonelJ> for esoteric programming I guess you wouldn't bother with typing stuff
00:06:09 <itidus21> :->
00:06:14 <kallisti> actually these highly dynamic pet project things are surprisingly common...
00:06:25 <kallisti> ColonelJ: not necessarily.
00:06:37 <kallisti> Glass is an esoteric OO language!
00:06:38 <oerjan> unless you make the type system turing-complete.
00:07:07 <ColonelJ> oh right yea -.-
00:07:30 <ColonelJ> I'm more worried about my type system being decidable at the moment
00:07:37 <kallisti> why's that?
00:07:41 <oerjan> ...i'm not sure there actually exists a statically typed esoteric language.
00:07:58 <kallisti> oerjan: I'm almost certain there is.
00:08:05 <ColonelJ> never mind that I'm talking rubbish
00:08:50 <ion> Haskell? /me ducks
00:09:01 <kallisti> oerjan: ORK
00:09:12 <kallisti> I think
00:09:22 <kallisti> maybe not?
00:09:24 <kallisti> I'm not actually sure.
00:09:36 <oerjan> it catches type errors at compile time? i have never tried to run anything in it...
00:09:45 <kallisti> yeah I have no clue actually.
00:09:54 <kallisti> but the type of every variable is known at compile time... so....
00:10:09 <ColonelJ> that's static typing
00:10:26 <kallisti> but you might be able to rewrite the variable to a different type later...
00:10:35 <kallisti> >_> I don't really know.
00:10:39 <kallisti> and am too lazy to find out.
00:10:50 <oerjan> Gregor: is ORK statically typed?
00:11:06 <ColonelJ> the philosophy of my language is that adding types to variables can allow the compiler to do more optimizations on the code and catch some type errors at compile time
00:11:33 <ColonelJ> any that can't be detected or proven will be found at runtime
00:11:55 <Gregor> oerjan: ORK is a really poor choice of syntax for C++.
00:11:55 <ColonelJ> as the compiler becomes more developed more are detected at runtime rather than compiletime
00:12:41 <oerjan> Gregor: i take that as a yes.
00:12:44 <kallisti> ColonelJ: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindley%E2%80%93Milner
00:12:47 <Gregor> oerjan: Indeed.
00:12:49 <oerjan> Gregor: hm does the same apply to Glass?
00:12:53 <ColonelJ> kallisti: what about it?
00:13:00 <Gregor> oerjan: No
00:13:00 <kallisti> oerjan: Glass is stack based
00:13:07 <Gregor> oerjan: Glass is dynamic and nonsensical.
00:13:16 <kallisti> ColonelJ: you could use this to infer types at compile-time if you wanted.
00:13:30 <Gregor> It's Forth meets Smalltalk meets torture.
00:13:31 <ColonelJ> I was planning to use some extension of it
00:13:41 <kallisti> Glass is awesome what are you talking about.
00:13:42 <ColonelJ> because it's a stack based language I can't use it directly
00:13:58 <ColonelJ> stack languages have stack effect systems instead
00:14:07 <ColonelJ> so it will be some strange hybrid of both
00:14:19 <ColonelJ> currently I'm basing the types on regular expressions
00:14:19 * kallisti has a plan to make a really simple revision to dupdog.
00:14:30 <kallisti> that might actually make it easier to prove turing-completeness
00:14:50 <oerjan> Gregor: i thought so but in principle none of that _prevents_ it being statically typed :P
00:15:06 * kallisti sets out to make a statically typed stack based language. :>
00:15:19 <ColonelJ> proving turing completeness isn't hard
00:15:37 <kallisti> ColonelJ: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Dupdog by all means go ahead
00:15:38 <oerjan> well, i guess Cat's type system never really got to work, so stack based and statically typed don't go too well together
00:15:40 <ColonelJ> kallisti: one exists already it's called Cat
00:15:49 <ColonelJ> damn it oerjan
00:16:05 <Gregor> <oerjan> Gregor: i thought so but in principle none of that _prevents_ it being statically typed // it'd be ... painful. But perhaps not impossible.
00:16:05 <kallisti> link?
00:16:32 <oerjan> the type system part never got implemented, or possibly it was dropped again
00:17:14 * kallisti doesn't think it would be too difficult actually.
00:17:44 <kallisti> certainly not impossible.
00:18:13 <kallisti> oh found it
00:18:15 <kallisti> nevermind
00:18:44 <oerjan> kallisti: type inference for stack based languages has special needs
00:18:50 <kallisti> oh, type inference, yes.
00:19:48 * kallisti sets out to make a statically typed /esoteric/ stack based language.
00:19:50 <ColonelJ> anyway for starpial basically the type system is ?type or ?[input1type in2type in3type : out1type out2type out3type]
00:19:54 <oerjan> like types for segments of stack, which might be arbitrary length if you want polymorphism
00:20:07 <ColonelJ> and it uses regular expressions to handle stupid stuff
00:20:23 <ColonelJ> @loop?[+:*]: #f f# f loop
00:20:23 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
00:20:35 <ColonelJ> + being one or more anythings and * being 0 or more anythings
00:21:06 <ColonelJ> but functions like this are obviously going to give the type inference algorithm a lot of problems
00:21:43 <ColonelJ> this is a really bad one
00:21:43 <ColonelJ> @list?[* int:{*}]: #n n 0 > [dip[n 1 - list] push] {} ?#
00:21:44 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
00:22:10 <ColonelJ> number of arguments consumed depends on an integer which might not be known at compile time
00:22:43 <oerjan> ColonelJ: well that makes it dependent typing, which is obviously undecidable
00:22:48 <oerjan> to infer
00:23:35 <ColonelJ> [00:07] <ColonelJ> I'm more worried about my type system being decidable at the moment << and that's why this was rubbish because it's impossible
00:26:06 <Jafet> When in doubt, add another quantifier
00:27:12 <oerjan> for all cases where doubt exists, always add another possible quantifier
00:30:09 <ColonelJ> I was thinking of allowing the language to try to find a valid value of an uninitialized variable that doesn't cause the program to crash, in the same way that prolog does
00:30:45 <ColonelJ> so that the language can spread over the whole imperative/functional/logic categorizations
00:31:56 <Jafet> "My language is multipathologic"
00:33:12 <ColonelJ> ironically it's meant to make programs more secure and verifiable
00:33:55 <ColonelJ> just because the type system is undecidable doesn't stop it being doable for a large range of programs
00:34:53 <Jafet> Or you can require that programs are valid only if their types can be verified by some algorithm
00:35:21 <ColonelJ> I could but where would be the fun in that
00:36:01 <Jafet> You can release different versions of the algorithm, ensuring language versions are never fully compatible
00:36:31 <ColonelJ> the language itself is always compatible but what each implementation is able to verify may differ
00:36:33 <Jafet> Hmm, that joke might hit too close to home
00:37:41 <ColonelJ> kallisti: dupdog isn't turing complete
00:37:54 <ColonelJ> the proof is like one line
00:38:58 <ColonelJ> there's nowhere to store any extra state and the length of the program is monotonically decreasing
00:39:23 <ColonelJ> turing machine requires potentially infinite state
00:39:40 <oerjan> ColonelJ: um no it's not monotonically decreasing
00:40:03 <ColonelJ> d'oh
00:40:11 <ColonelJ> duplication
00:40:22 <ColonelJ> what did I think that meant
00:40:46 <ColonelJ> maybe I thought it only duplicated that character
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00:49:50 <ColonelJ> does it matter if the program spits out random crap while simulating a turing machine
00:50:53 <oerjan> not as long as it's easy to filter out
00:51:42 <oerjan> e.g. the bitwise cyclic tag proof assumes all deleted bits are printed
00:52:07 <oerjan> of course it would be nicer if you could actually do nice output
00:52:46 <Jafet> You can relax the definition of turing-completeness a long way
00:53:28 <Jafet> Eg. if determining the final state of some wolfram crank automaton is turing-complete, you can say the automaton is turing-equivalent
00:54:08 <ColonelJ> yea
00:54:28 <ColonelJ> anyway I'm just having trouble seeing how this language can encode any state that actually affects the running of the program
00:54:39 <ColonelJ> oh I see
00:54:58 <ColonelJ> it's all odds and evens
00:55:53 <ColonelJ> just need a way to store that..
00:56:04 <ColonelJ> brb
01:01:23 <ColonelJ> I guess for a practical implementation of this language you'd just delete everything except the start and the end
01:09:41 <Gregor> What's the current preferred non-terrible pastebin?
01:10:03 <Sgeo> Chromium is starting to irritate me these days
01:10:28 <zzo38> Sgeo: In what ways? Perhaps use something else or modify Chromium
01:10:39 <zzo38> Gregor: Best is sprunge, in my opinion
01:10:43 <Sgeo> zzo38, some pages don't work properly
01:12:49 <oerjan> ColonelJ: as i recall, it's not easy to prove you won't need to go arbitrary deep into it
01:13:48 <oerjan> my idea for a practical implementation is to use a data structure with lots of internal sharing
01:17:19 <ColonelJ> there's really literally nothing used other than the start and the end
01:18:00 <oerjan> ColonelJ: um every command character deletes itself before running
01:18:02 <ColonelJ> but yea you could probably make it so you have a perfect implementation by keeping track of where the copying happened so you can get the inside stuff back
01:19:31 <ColonelJ> anyway back to turing land, still having trouble seeing how it's possible to store data given that you can't add anything to the code or even rearrange it
01:20:02 <ColonelJ> {~s..e} -> {s..es..e}
01:20:05 <oerjan> well there's a reason it's still unresolved :P
01:21:14 <oerjan> now once you run that s part, the two duplicated parts won't be identical any longer
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01:21:41 <oerjan> and it starts looking insanely complicated which commands will get run
01:22:12 <oerjan> but is it complicated enough to make it tc? we don't know.
01:23:27 <ColonelJ> my point was that the start and end are still the same so they haven't moved
01:23:47 <ColonelJ> reversing it has no effect either
01:23:47 <oerjan> otoh if you make the assumption that there _is_ some part inside that you will never get to ever (even in duplicated form), then keeping just the start and end does seem enough
01:24:01 <ColonelJ> it seems like a good assumption to me
01:24:30 <oerjan> hm except you _must_ get to _some_ copy of every command, eventually, i think.
01:25:32 <oerjan> and once you have traversed the entire length from the original s to e, suddenly it is not enough to keep track of just start and end any more
01:25:46 <oerjan> *to the leftmost e
01:26:32 <ColonelJ> tbh I think you only need to keep track of the duplications
01:26:46 <ColonelJ> that's already logarithmic in the size of the source code as it grows
01:26:59 <ColonelJ> so that's something you can reasonably store
01:27:43 <oerjan> yes, that was my idea with the sharing
01:29:00 <zzo38> There are so many things I can think of for Haskell extensions which might be useful to me but many people hate. I thought of another one now, which would be -XWildcardImports which allows you to write import X.Y.Zzz.*; import qualified Xyz.Abc.* as XyzAbc; import qualified Abc.Xyz.* as AbcXyz.*;
01:29:11 <ColonelJ> anyway you're right on the every symbol being accessed thing
01:29:34 <ColonelJ> the program pointer is indeed monotonically moving through the source code from both directions
01:29:54 <monqy> zzo38: how does that work portabilitywise
01:29:59 <ColonelJ> the interesting stuff happens at the boundaries
01:30:24 <zzo38> monqy: Can you ask a question better, please? I do not completely understand your question
01:32:26 <monqy> from what I can see it: (1) makes dependency tracking harder (2) makes it so things may fail to compile if someone has all the proper dependencies but also some other things that cause conflicts when imported by the wildcard
01:33:28 <zzo38> monqy: One thing is that, if there are directories with these names in the current program, it uses only the modules in the current program and not other packages, is one of my ideas. And if you want other packages wildcard imports you must name them explicitly.
01:33:49 <zzo38> Therefore it will not cause conflicts.
01:34:48 <monqy> what happens if there are not directories with those names in the current program
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01:35:07 <zzo38> monqy: Then you get an error if you have not named the package explicitly.
01:35:24 <monqy> oh
01:35:56 <zzo38> And then, the explicit package naming can also include wildcards, but if you do so, you must explicitly tell the compiler to unhide the packages you want (and that can also include wildcards).
01:36:26 <kallisti> @pl (f -> f x y)
01:36:26 <lambdabot> (line 1, column 4):
01:36:26 <lambdabot> unexpected ">"
01:36:26 <lambdabot> expecting variable, "(", operator or ")"
01:36:30 <kallisti> @pl (\f -> f x y)
01:36:30 <lambdabot> flip ($ x) y
01:36:39 <zzo38> But if there is such a directory ("X/Y/Zzz/" in the first example), but contains no files, that wildcard import declaration is silently ignored.
01:36:57 <kallisti> zzo38: I would use #let for macros, but that conflicts with hsc2hs macro syntax
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01:39:01 <zzo38> kallisti: I didn't know that, but mine has # followed by a letter to indicate what kind of macro you want, such as #D define normal macro, #{ to enter a named chunk and #P for the main program again, etc (somewhat similar to WEB, although using # instead of @)
01:40:43 <zzo38> Other idea for Haskell extension is -XHideNonexist which allows a hiding clause of an import declaration to specify things which the named module does not export, without causing warning/error messages.
01:40:45 <kallisti> why is #P needed?
01:41:55 <zzo38> kallisti: For example, #{"hello world"} creates a named section {"hello world"} and then everything beyond that point until another #{ or a #P will be part of that chunk, so #P is the things directly entered into the program rather than a named chunk.
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01:49:17 <oerjan> :t (`id` ?x `flip` ?y)
01:49:18 <lambdabot> The operator `id' [infixl 9] of a section
01:49:18 <lambdabot> must have lower precedence than that of the operand,
01:49:18 <lambdabot> namely `flip' [infixl 9]
01:49:43 <oerjan> darn, wrong way
01:49:55 <oerjan> d'oh of course
01:52:34 <zzo38> And then there could be -XZeroParamTypeClasses which allow you to make a class with zero parameters, which means it can have only one instance (although it does not have to be defined in the same module)
01:52:49 <oerjan> @pl (\f -> f x y z)
01:52:49 <lambdabot> flip (flip ($ x) y) z
01:53:11 <zzo38> (And with -XInstanceDisambiguation you could have multiple instances in different files which you can specify which is used)
01:53:24 <oerjan> :t id `flip` ?x `flip` ?y
01:53:25 <lambdabot> forall a a1 b. (?x::a, ?y::a1) => (a -> a1 -> b) -> b
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01:59:36 <oerjan> holy spam batman
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02:05:10 <elliott> heads up -
02:05:47 <elliott> in the next few days I'm planning to set up MediaWiki on pyralspite, with the intention of importing the daily database dumps of the esolangs wiki and hopefully pointing esolangs.org over there
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02:06:05 <elliott> since graue said (via ais) he was open to someone taking over administration. and because this spam is really annoying.
02:06:16 * oerjan agree
02:06:39 <Gregor> Sooooo you ended your strike in order to try to shanghai the site???
02:06:53 <elliott> Gregor: What strike, what shanghaiing
02:07:04 <oerjan> WHY DON'T YOU COME HERE ANY MORE
02:07:55 <elliott> Graue doesn't have time to care for the site any more, it's badly in need of a MediaWiki upgrade, and spam now completely fills the recent changes (yesterday you had to increase the shown number of items to see the _legitimate_ changes that got made earlier in the day)
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02:08:37 <oerjan> i've been using ?limit=250 or whatsitsname for a while
02:08:44 <elliott> I was merely letting people know I'm intending to do such in the next few days, since I have the free time and the server, so that they could contact me with anything they found relevant (e.g. extensions they'd like or such).
02:09:44 <elliott> But by all means revel in your discovery of my dastardly plot to burden myself with installing and configuring anti-spam and caching extensions and administrating a PHP server :)
02:11:09 <Gregor> You dastard!
02:11:14 <oerjan> yay!
02:11:15 <elliott> oerjan: Because I hear this place isn't terribly interesting recently.
02:11:17 <oerjan> and then you'll enslave us all, right?
02:11:32 <Gregor> (Apparently "dastard" is a word, at least according to my spell checker. I have no idea what it means, and it's probably not a noun)
02:11:36 <elliott> Yes, I personally plan to use my database access to give myself the biggest powers, and then delete every brainfuck derivative and put goatse on the main page.
02:11:56 <elliott> That would be productive and you would all be completely powerless to do anything, 'cuz domains can't be pointed elsewhere more than once.
02:12:01 <Gregor> So, on the whole an improvement.
02:12:04 <elliott> THE PERFECT CRIME
02:12:09 <oerjan> i see, so Phantom_Hoover is involved, right?
02:12:19 <elliott> No, he's handling the murder. That's ancillary.
02:12:42 <oerjan> right, right
02:12:46 <elliott> Gregor: (Also if people know I plan to do it I'm less likely to procrastinate not doing it, which is what I spent today doing.)
02:15:30 <elliott> Relatedly -- does anyone have any experience with the Varnish cache?
02:15:47 <elliott> And/or reasons to use other caches
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02:16:55 <tswett> Gregor: here it is.
02:17:02 <Gregor> lol
02:17:12 <Gregor> But I can't /nick Applejack here.
02:17:23 <ColonelJ> or you could like not use Apache
02:17:39 <elliott> ColonelJ: When did I say I was using Apache?
02:17:39 <tswett> Fine. Join #esoteric on Sine. }:P
02:17:55 <ColonelJ> I just assumed that if you actually needed a cache then you were using apache
02:18:09 <elliott> ColonelJ: You've clearly never run MediaWiki.
02:18:25 <elliott> It eats up every resource it's given to serve the minimum amount of people it possibly can.
02:19:10 <Gregor> Sort of like Trac, then.
02:19:32 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, but the end result is more useful.
02:19:37 <Gregor> Indeed.
02:19:42 <elliott> OTOH, MediaWiki is PHP.
02:21:46 <elliott> Oh, hmm, it looks like nginx might support caching directly.
02:21:54 <elliott> That would be less painful than setting up an external cach...ier.
02:22:01 <ColonelJ> "As you can see from these test, if you are working with Nginx serving static files, it gives you no advantage to put Varnish in front of it" source: http://www.go2linux.org/linux/2011/04/nginx-varnish-compared-nginx-941
02:22:31 <elliott> ColonelJ: That's nice. Where's your source for "MediaWiki is based on serving static files"?
02:22:38 <ColonelJ> truedat
02:22:53 <ColonelJ> but that was just to illustrate one point at least
02:23:01 <elliott> :)
02:23:13 <ColonelJ> if it's set up wrong it may well perform even worse
02:23:35 <elliott> It's a bit ridiculous to cache static files anyway.
02:23:38 <elliott> They're already cached.
02:23:47 <elliott> The kernel will keep them in memory.
02:26:01 <tswett> I wonder what you call this sort of music: http://homestuck.bandcamp.com/track/homestuck-anthem
02:26:04 <tswett> Don't say "electronic".
02:26:29 <elliott> Anyhow, that's all, methinks.
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02:27:04 <tswett> It's... you know, that one electronic genre that sounds like a ping-pong game at the beginning, and then transitions into piano and violin and bass.
02:27:10 <ColonelJ> tswett: ambient?
02:27:56 <tswett> Perhaps. It's not very unobtrusive, though, I think.
02:30:03 <ColonelJ> like just a random one from google/youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPmmHWSZwEA
02:30:09 <ColonelJ> get the piano coming in after a minute
02:31:14 <tswett> Yeah, I guess the intros are definitely the same style.
02:33:41 <tswett> "White" from the same album may also qualify as ambient.
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03:10:00 <quintopia> tswett: i'm going with experimental industrial ambient
03:11:25 <quintopia> is that hubble deep field in the background
03:11:55 <quintopia> also: approximately how many weeks should i take off work if i want to go through all of homestuck in a single session?
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03:34:07 <Gregor> OK, I seriously use ctrl+W when I mean ctrl+Q an embarrassing amount of the time.
03:35:02 <oerjan> remap?
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03:57:58 <zzo38> Here it is: http://sprunge.us/FfJA It is called "Hampp" it is short for "Haskell macro preprocessor"
03:58:44 <zzo38> Tell me I'm wrong.
04:07:10 <quintopia> you're wrong
04:07:14 <quintopia> (what are you wrong about?)
04:09:59 <monqy> it's actually called hamapp
04:12:40 <quintopia> it's actually called hasmacprep
04:15:10 <zzo38> O, I didn't know that.
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04:15:38 <quintopia> circles are lame
04:33:07 <zzo38> Now you can please tell me in case something should be add/remove/whatever, or comment/question/complain, or something else.
04:45:58 <quintopia> i don't really haskell. sorry.
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05:55:53 <zzo38>
05:56:06 <quintopia> i agree
05:56:16 <oerjan> very succinct.
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06:51:55 <zzo38> Do you know, what file formats you suggest, I could make Hampp load, additionally? And any other idea of built-in macros or other features? One idea I have is 8data which creates datatype declarations from other things, although I am unsure exactly how it would do.
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07:08:08 <oklopol> "<Gregor> (Apparently "dastard" is a word, at least according to my spell checker. I have no idea what it means, and it's probably not a noun)" americans -__-
07:09:01 <monqy> backformation of dastardly? or is dastardly derived from dastard help
07:10:52 <oklopol> also yaaay elliott was back
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07:27:15 <Sgeo> He was?
07:27:19 <Sgeo> Oh
07:32:34 <Jafet> My spell checker once corrected "benzodiazepines" to "sleeplessness"
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09:02:22 <Sgeo> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=10%2F0
09:02:35 <Sgeo> You know, the things I wish I knew of in grade school
09:04:10 <Sgeo> My "number circle" seems less impressive now.
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09:45:18 <Sgeo> kallisti, Phantom_Hoover update
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10:09:55 <kallisti> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=brandon+jacobs+rushing+yards+in+lightyears
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10:28:33 <kallisti> aw, wolfram alpha has 2D graphs of functions but not 3D :(
10:29:30 <Jafet> You need a 3D screen first
10:30:32 <fizzie> kallisti: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Plot3D[Sin[x%2By^2]%2C+{x%2C-3%2C3}%2C+{y%2C-2%2C2}]
10:30:55 <fizzie> (Possibly it's writable in some less Mathematicaey way.)
10:32:48 <kallisti> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=left-compressed+evolution+of+Wolfram+2%2C3
10:32:51 <kallisti> woah
10:33:33 <kallisti> things like a^2 + b^2 show a plot
10:33:51 <fizzie> Yes, I guess it guesses.
10:33:54 <kallisti> but a^2 + b^2 + c^2 do not
10:34:43 <kallisti> also multi-dimensional sine things looks cool.
10:35:13 <kallisti> ah you can just say "plot <equation>"
10:35:30 <ais523> gah, I just deleted 3 recent-pages-screenfuls worth of spam
10:35:38 <ais523> and I'd only been away for 17 hours or so
10:35:56 <kallisti> dude, bro
10:35:58 <kallisti> bayesian inference
10:36:18 <Jafet> Bayesian mass guessing
10:36:26 <kallisti> nah
10:36:39 <kallisti> train it for a few days by marking changes manually
10:40:10 <Jafet> Require posters to prove or disprove that a randomly given esoteric language is Turing-equivalent
10:40:45 <Jafet> It's like recaptcha, except it's also a Turing test
10:40:51 <fizzie> Aw, it input-interpretates http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=RegionPlot3D[x^2+%2B+y^2+%2B+z^2+%3C+1+%26%26+x^2+%2B+y^2+%3C+x^2%2C+{x%2C+-1%2C+1}%2C+{y%2C+-1%2C+1}%2C+{z%2C+-1%2C+1}] right but can't produce an image.
10:42:04 <fizzie> Ooh, I'm on level III in our room-booking system.
10:42:56 <fizzie> Also many RegionPlot3D[]s it just ignores and says something about the equation inside instead.
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15:34:10 <Gregor> cheater: I'm so glad you agree with my celebration!
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15:40:02 <fizzie> (Equal time and all that.)
15:45:32 <Gregor> http://ioccc.org/2011/whowon.html :)
15:48:07 <cheater> Gregor: is that u
15:48:11 <cheater> Gregor: nice
15:48:19 <fizzie> Contrugalattices, then.
15:48:24 <fizzie> Nice category.
15:48:59 <Gregor> My goal was for them to invent a category.
15:49:00 <Gregor> So yeah.
15:49:02 <Gregor> Wooooooh
15:51:40 <itidus20> wow
15:52:28 <Gregor> Hm, apparently I read the word "Contrugalattices" as "Congratulations" without even a second glance.
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16:00:42 <Gregor> Also, is "Daniel Vik - Tracker player" a coincidence, or a name in this channel?
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16:08:51 <Sgeo> reverse life?
16:09:19 * Sgeo blinks at suprisingly portable
16:10:01 <Sgeo> And apparently I can't spell a word even if I've just seen it.
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17:04:26 <ais523> Gregor: wow
17:04:30 <ais523> results out already
17:04:31 <ais523> and you won
17:05:13 <ais523> Gregor: I'm glad I inspired you into doing this, even if I didn't win myself
17:05:29 <ais523> also, shinh is on there
17:11:11 <Gregor> ais523: Sorry you didn't win :( :( but that's actually wildly insufficient to diminish my current ear-to-ear grin 8-D
17:11:23 <ais523> it's OK
17:11:33 <ais523> I'm just not good enough at C to really do well at the IOCCC
17:11:56 <ais523> I get the feeling that there's a relatively small number of entries, though, just from the fact that submissions closed in January and we have the winners already in February
17:12:30 <Gregor> Yeah, probably.
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17:13:02 <ais523> I guess the easiest way to win is a crazily golfed game full of graphics and sound
17:13:10 <ais523> even if it isn't particularly obfuscated
17:15:18 <cheater> easiest way: df clone
17:15:56 <ais523> cheater: no, not easy to do a df clone within the size limit
17:16:00 <itidus20> what is golfed?
17:16:16 <cheater> lol
17:16:16 <itidus20> i hope to have a small TTL on this question :->
17:17:13 <ais523> itidus20: the IOCCC
17:17:30 <ais523> not specifically because they request golfing, but because they have a relatively small maximum size limit
17:17:30 <itidus20> ok i found it in google by typing golfed esolang
17:18:06 <cheater> try vimgolf
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17:44:21 <Taneb> Hello
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19:47:48 <oerjan> so wolfram alpha wants to tell me about the next big step in computational knowledge, coming soon.
19:48:04 <oerjan> now i shall never look at it.
19:51:46 <fizzie> They don't actually tell anything there either.
19:52:08 <fizzie> It was all "we don't want to reveal the details, but it's going to be amazing".
19:52:22 <ais523> fizzie: this would be worrying coming from many people
19:52:25 <oerjan> oh.
19:52:28 <ais523> from the Wolfram people, it's more likely banal
19:52:58 <fizzie> You get to personalize the experience on a whole new level, made possible by their computational knowledge methods and whatnots.
19:53:07 <fizzie> Also I think a dialogue was mentioned.
19:53:16 <oerjan> Gregor: congratulations!
19:54:24 <fizzie> "We’re not going to let you know the details just yet, but what you’re going to find is a dramatic enhancement of functionality. You’ll be able to personalize your interaction with Wolfram|Alpha in ways that only our combination of algorithms, presentation tools, and data representation could make possible."
19:54:45 <fizzie> Maybe it'll be shiny.
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20:00:52 -!- oerjan has set topic: /fnord/Home of N>=1 IOCCC Winners! | Friendship Is Magic: The Gathering | elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http:\\\/\\\/codu.org\\\/logs\\\/_esoteric\\\/ | Now slightly on-topic | Now failing to construct an esolang in THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. WAY./fnord.
20:01:10 <oerjan> i'm not entirely sure what N is at this point
20:02:13 -!- kallisti has joined.
20:02:28 <oerjan> i guess most likely 1, if only because it's so long since the last one
20:02:53 <oerjan> but i may be forgetting someone i should remember
20:03:02 <kallisti> IOCCC winners what?
20:03:17 <oerjan> kallisti: Gregor won
20:03:38 <kallisti> oh noice
20:04:28 <kallisti> "most self deprecating" huh?
20:04:54 <kallisti> ..."most devolving" okay they're just making up arbitrary superlatives now.
20:04:55 <oerjan> quite so
20:06:02 <Gregor> I do quite enjoy the category they invented for me 8-D
20:06:12 <Gregor> Because it makes no sense for any other program.
20:06:30 <kallisti> "most shrinkable" lol
20:06:45 <Gregor> I do quite want to know what that means.
20:07:00 <zzo38> Shinichiro Hamaji entered as well; I didn't know that before. And it seems like they changed the categories entirely this year.
20:07:13 <Gregor> zzo38: The categories change every time.
20:07:16 <oerjan> someone should have run a spellchecker over that page.
20:07:24 <zzo38> Why is there two Paint by number puzzle?
20:07:25 <Gregor> zzo38: They reuse, but they invent categories per-competition.
20:07:33 * kallisti wonders how difficult it is to actually win IOCCC
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20:09:38 <oerjan> also there seems to be something resembling a duplicate
20:10:18 <Gregor> oerjan: Yeah, I'm curious about that too, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see what it means.
20:10:19 <oerjan> zzo38: and both from Japan, could be a duplicate
20:10:30 <kallisti> could be Japanese clones.
20:10:42 <kallisti> with secret identities.
20:11:01 <oerjan> best non-chess game - but no chess games anywhere else :P
20:11:06 <Gregor> oerjan: Yup
20:11:16 <kallisti> I'm guessing they got a lot of chess game entries.
20:11:23 <oerjan> unless it's in one of those 3 embedded programs for the best of show
20:12:13 * kallisti submits an obfuscated C portal chess implementation for IOCCC 21
20:12:49 <ais523> perhaps it was a co-submitted entry
20:12:50 <Gregor> So who was talking about making a MIDI and/or Tracker player for this IOCCC (other than elliott and me, since I stole the idea and then didn't follow thru)
20:13:38 <Gregor> ais523: You'd think they could format it less ridiculously then ...
20:14:13 <kallisti> !perl $_="blah";s'blah'\r\n';print
20:14:14 <ais523> Gregor: it wouldn't surprise me if they're trying to wind people up
20:14:15 <EgoBot> ​\r\n
20:14:29 <Gregor> ais523: Oh?
20:14:30 <ais523> kallisti: testing quoting rules of s'''?
20:14:31 <oerjan> well we know ais523's name, so he wasn't one of the winners
20:14:36 <ais523> I wasn't, I already said as much
20:14:49 <kallisti> ais523: it's been about a month since I've looked at perl. I occasionally forget small details. :P
20:15:06 <oerjan> ais523: ok, i haven't finished logreading yet
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20:16:28 <kallisti> Gregor: AndGregor: hi
20:17:06 <fizzie> LandGregor, to distinguish from the SkyGregor and the SeaGregor.
20:17:22 <oerjan> i was more expecting OrGregor and XorGregor
20:17:26 <AndGregor> Earth pony Gregor
20:19:05 <oerjan> `pastlog daniel vik
20:19:38 <HackEgo> No output.
20:19:45 <oerjan> hmph
20:19:57 <oerjan> well it may not have been mentioned
20:20:57 <oerjan> `pastlog shinh
20:21:13 <HackEgo> 2011-10-26.txt:15:51:37: <ais523> here's a GolfScript factorial program, that factorials every line of input (treating it as a number): http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Factorial/narb_1298033052&gs
20:21:37 <oerjan> oh it's the maintainer of that site?
20:21:45 <oerjan> (also ICFP winner, i saw)
20:22:06 <oerjan> `pastlog shinh>
20:22:13 <HackEgo> No output.
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20:24:15 <fizzie> \land is IIRC LaTeX for the /\.
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20:24:45 <fizzie> In related news, "latex land" is a google search for which some of the hits... are not about LaTeX.
20:25:24 <oerjan> but _may_ be relevant to rule 34.
20:25:28 <oerjan> (i assume.)
20:25:38 <AndGregor> lol
20:28:35 <fizzie> Random gripe time: they don't stick X servers in the lecture room Windows workstations. :/
20:28:56 <fizzie> (They do put a commercial SSH client in, though.)
20:34:58 <oerjan> fizzie: two version replies?
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20:39:17 <Physis> someona can read my future?
20:40:23 <ais523> `? esoteric
20:40:27 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
20:40:43 <Physis> :)
20:40:48 <Physis> sank you
20:41:07 <Physis> I know only C++ an C# btw
20:41:09 <Physis> yo
20:41:39 <ais523> yep, this is probably the wrong channel for you
20:41:50 <ais523> it took a while to figure out where the right one was (several years), but we're happy to send people there now
20:42:41 <oerjan> `? welcome
20:42:44 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
20:42:53 <oerjan> just in case you like this stuff too :)
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20:58:21 <Gregor> <fizzie> Random gripe time: they don't stick X servers in the lecture room Windows workstations. :/ // what a ... shock?
20:58:24 <Gregor> Where by "shock"
20:58:25 <Gregor> I mean "duh"
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21:25:59 <fizzie> Gregor: But they have a site-wide license to one X server and all, and they used to put it in.
21:26:18 <fizzie> (I'm supposed to show some MATLAB stuffs tomorrow.)
21:27:27 <Gregor> ais523, oerjan: Upon further observation, the two "paint by number puzzle" entries are almost certainly a coventure, as the site says there are 14 winners but this list has 15 entries.
21:28:15 <ais523> right
21:28:40 <oerjan> hm
21:36:26 <oerjan> :t unionBy
21:36:26 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] -> [a]
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21:37:21 <oerjan> @hoogle unionBy
21:37:22 <lambdabot> Data.List unionBy :: (a -> a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] -> [a]
21:42:51 <olsner> there are 14 winners but this list has 15 entries => one of them is the loser
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23:55:07 <Sgeo> kallisti, Phantom of the Update
00:17:22 <kallisti> ..
00:17:30 <oerjan> russian scientists reach lake vostok
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00:22:09 -!- oerjan has set topic: /fnord/Home of N>=1 IOCCC Winners! | Friendship Is Magic: The Gathering | elliott sacked as bearer of Element of Loyalty, seeking pegasus replacement | http:\\\/\\\/codu.org\\\/logs\\\/_esoteric\\\/ | Now slightly on-topic | It came from Lake Vostok/fnord.
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00:57:03 <pikhq> Gregor: Congrats.
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01:36:44 <Gregor> pikhq: Thankee :)
01:39:39 <Sgeo> Gregor, congratulations. What is unexpected portability?
01:40:10 <Gregor> You'll just have to wait and seeeeeee 8-D
01:40:14 <oerjan> it accidentally runs just fine on a Harvard MARK
01:41:02 <Gregor> oerjan: Something tells me there's no C compiler for it :)
01:41:08 <oerjan> you don't say
01:41:18 <oerjan> that's why it's so unexpected
01:41:45 * Gregor nods sagely.
01:42:28 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's a JIT. If it runs on more than one CPU and fits in their size requirements, it's unexpectedly portable.
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01:58:20 <lifthrasiir> Gregor: congrats! is there any code (or hint.txt) available?
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01:58:52 <oerjan> we need that pegasus replacement soon, it's too quiet here
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02:08:53 <Gregor> lifthrasiir: There will be when IOCCC posts it.
02:09:01 <Gregor> lifthrasiir: I've decided to heed their request not to release 'til they do.
02:09:19 <lifthrasiir> aha, i see.
02:09:25 <Gregor> oerjan: I would /nick RainbowDash or even /nick Fluttershy or especially /nick DerpyHooves but they're all owned :(
02:09:33 <oerjan> heh
02:09:54 <lifthrasiir> (i was never an IOCCC winner so i didn't know about that)
02:10:15 <Gregor> lifthrasiir: Apparently the delay is to allow people to fix last-minute bugs etc.
02:10:18 <Gregor> Which is good 'cuz I've got one 8-D
02:16:44 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Flim.
02:16:47 <Flim> Huh.
02:16:51 <Flim> I finally found an unowned pony name.
02:16:56 <Flim> Too bad it's a terrible one.
02:18:43 <oerjan> bit flimsy
02:18:53 <Flim> Flim is kind of a dick.
02:19:06 <Flim> Also him and his "brother" Flam are only brothers in the biblical sense, if you understand my meaning.
02:19:25 <oerjan> ...i don't.
02:19:33 <Flim> That's probably for the best X-D
02:24:43 <oerjan> ^style
02:24:51 <oerjan> wat
02:24:57 <Flim> fungot: OH GOD NO
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03:34:40 <zzo38> I invented a shogi variant called "Shogi of the Central Madness". Each player picks up one card, and you are not allowed to look at your opponent's cards. You can use the cards/dice if you have a piece in the center square of the board.
03:35:22 <zzo38> http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSshogiofthecent
03:36:51 <quintopia> how many players?
03:37:20 <quintopia> oh
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03:44:38 <evincar> Evening all. Or whatever time you are.
03:45:25 <monqy> close enough
03:45:37 <evincar> It's been awhile.
03:46:20 <monqy> I haven't kept track
03:46:22 <oerjan> aeons ago, evincar roamed these lands.
03:46:43 * evincar evinc-hars.
03:46:48 <monqy> were those aeons before or after elliott vanished
03:46:55 <oerjan> before.
03:46:57 <evincar> He's been on StackExchange a lot?
03:47:01 <evincar> For what it's worth.
03:47:29 <monqy> gotta keep that rep up, hm
03:47:41 <evincar> StackOverflow specifically. I see him in the Haskell tag quite a bit.
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03:47:44 <evincar> Unsurprisingly.
03:52:13 <evincar> Speaking of SE, I've got a question that probably isn't suitable for there.
03:52:20 <evincar> If anyone cares.
03:52:30 <monqy> is it a good question
03:53:13 <evincar> Not really, no.
03:53:17 <evincar> If good=objective.
03:53:34 <monqy> what
03:53:43 <evincar> You asked. :P
03:53:53 <oerjan> sorry, without elliott we cannot answer subjective questions any longer.
03:54:39 <evincar> Anyway, in a language with concatenative and applicative expressions, should you keep argument order visually the same [a b c f]=(f a b c) or reverse one of them so partial application works right (f a b c)=[a b c f]?
03:54:53 <evincar> Wait.
03:54:56 <evincar> Fuck, typo.
03:55:12 <evincar> Latter should be (f a b c)=[c b a f].
03:55:17 <evincar> But yeah.
03:56:21 <monqy> i'm going to have to reread that
03:56:41 <oerjan> having both sounds like a mess
03:56:43 <pikhq> I'm afraid elliott stole all opinionatedness out of us.
03:56:59 <oerjan> oh there is pikhq. but he only does politics.
03:57:30 <pikhq> Ah, right. I'm strongly opinionated about policy.
03:57:41 <evincar> oerjan: It is and it isn't. I like concatenative languages, but some things are way nicer to write in applicative style. Take math expressions.
03:58:10 <oerjan> you _could_ have a prefix concatenative language, couldn't you.
03:58:25 <evincar> Sure, no reason why not.
03:59:24 <evincar> It'd look like Lisp with less nesting.
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03:59:32 <monqy> hi kallisti
03:59:38 <monqy> maybe you can answer evincar's subjective question
04:00:22 <evincar> It boils down to whether things should look right or work right. :P
04:01:16 <evincar> I'll prolly just add a flip operator and be done with it.
04:01:21 <monqy> working wrong is kind of a problem
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04:03:19 <evincar> Yeah, when it's in those terms, it's kind of obvious. :/
04:11:27 <kallisti> monqy: yes I'm great at humans
04:11:30 <kallisti> what is the question?
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04:12:04 <kallisti> monqy: yes I'm great at humans
04:12:07 <kallisti> what's the question?
04:12:26 <evincar> kallisti: "In a language with concatenative and applicative expressions, should you keep argument order visually the same [a b c f]=(f a b c) or reverse one of them so partial application works right (f a b c)=[c b a f]?"
04:12:44 <evincar> In other words, working right or looking right.
04:12:45 <oerjan> great at humans, bad at networking
04:12:54 <evincar> But I'm pretty much past it.
04:13:47 <kallisti> evincar: I don't really understand the purpose of the reversal anyway.
04:14:00 <Jafet> [c b a f] is how a stack language evaluates f
04:14:21 <Jafet> And nearly every concatenative language is a stack language
04:14:38 <Jafet> (That is, their authors C B A.)
04:15:26 <evincar> It's the difference between having (map f list) correspond to [list f map] or [f list map].
04:15:30 <evincar> So yeah, I choose "working right".
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04:17:02 <Flim> This question seems so subjective it's meta-subjective.
04:17:18 <Flim> Also, this is EASILY the worst pony name so I'm abandoning it.
04:17:20 -!- Flim has changed nick to Gregor.
04:18:44 <Gregor> (The original question, that is, not the specific example)
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04:31:43 <evincar> Is it possible to infer dependent types in general? I forget.
04:34:19 <evincar> It seems like no, because you could easily get nontermination if you had a type dependent on a function value.
04:34:57 <evincar> Then again, dependence on just base values is perfectly useful.
04:39:18 <Gregor> Yeah, I think you need a specific definition of "dependent types", since not all definitions of the term are decidable type systems, and inferring an undecidable type system is arguably a lost cause :)
04:41:00 <evincar> Not just arguably...
04:41:22 <evincar> Although there are plenty of useful programs that have decidable types even if the system in general is undecidable.
04:41:39 <evincar> But yeah, "dependent type system" is a rather broad category of things.
04:41:57 <monqy> @ask elliott_ hi
04:41:57 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
04:42:07 <monqy> @ask elliott check your messages as elliott_
04:42:08 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
04:51:54 <evincar> Well, I must go. My people need me.
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04:55:11 <oerjan> and thus evincar roamed on, to quests unknown.
04:59:04 <zzo38> In this D&D game I took a pot from the kitchen, fill with rain water, climb onto the roof, find the chimney pot full of rain water too, and pour them all down the chimney, almost extinguishing a fire elemental who was hiding in the fireplace.
05:17:02 <zzo38> One of the players selected the maximum allowed age, weight, and height for her character.
05:23:46 <zzo38> It now has 57 pages in full mode, and 27 chapters, and 25 footnotes.
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07:11:16 <pikhq> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfectchNtQM I think this is harder to understand than Japanese.
07:11:22 <pikhq> And it's nominally in English.
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07:36:03 <quintopia> Gregor: gratz on the IOCCC thing
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08:56:04 <NihilistDandy> Any ocamlers around?
08:56:24 <NihilistDandy> Or just someone better at it/more caffeinated than I am
09:00:05 <zzo38> How can you run a Haskell code in virtual machine?
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10:08:30 <itidus20> pikhq: i can follow 80% of the dialogue, perhaps due to the uk influences on australia
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10:17:08 <itidus20> ok not 80%
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13:48:38 -!- ais523 has set topic: Home of N>=1 IOCCC Winners! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | There is nothing more fun to watch than experimenting with elephant toothpaste.
14:05:56 <fizzie> I see you've changed the topic to be written in one of those languages where just having a simple line of text with no frills will cause it to be output. (Sadly I can't recall any right now, but I'm sure I've seen a hello, world example that was just hello, world.)
14:06:39 <ais523> fizzie: Text? PHP?
14:06:47 <ais523> not sure which qualifies as more esoteric
14:06:57 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Text
14:08:15 <fizzie> I think I recall a non-joke eso-example, but I might be wrong. It didn't have a PHP-esque escape sequence approach; it was one of those rewritingey things, I think.
14:08:38 <ais523> fizzie: ///?
14:08:44 <ais523> but the topic has slashes in already
14:09:10 <fizzie> I guess it could've been that I was thinking about, and right.
14:09:30 <ais523> also, the topic was in /// /before/ I changed it
14:12:36 <fizzie> It could be in Swap now. It doesn't have any \s or ~s.
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15:41:31 <Taneb> Hello!
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16:30:11 <tzxn3> the wiki really needs a captcha
16:31:34 <itidus20> after making an edit, a captcha isn't unreasonable
16:31:52 <itidus20> or before, whatever it is
16:32:03 <itidus20> ^when making an edit..
16:33:32 <tzxn3> for anonymous and non-autoconfirmed users, certainly...
16:36:33 <tzxn3> and on account creation
16:37:07 <ais523> tzxn3: the wiki /has/ a CAPTCHA
16:37:13 <ais523> it just isn't strong enough to defeat the spambots
16:37:16 <tzxn3> yes
16:37:18 <tzxn3> the arithmetic
16:37:30 <tzxn3> I wouldn't really say that's a captcha though
16:37:32 <ais523> and Graue is refusing to administer the wiki any more, even though he's the only person who can change it
16:37:41 <tzxn3> fuck
16:37:51 <tzxn3> :I
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16:39:32 <tzxn3> well, the problem needs to be solved
16:40:04 <itidus20> hmm
16:40:13 <itidus20> could you guys roll your own captcha?
16:40:59 <itidus20> what about a brainfuck captcha?
16:41:14 <itidus20> i guess no
16:41:16 <tzxn3> :P
16:41:36 <tzxn3> Graue seems to be the only bureaucrat and the only person with server access
16:41:56 <Gregor> Write a Brainfuck program to output the following string: «random text»
16:42:17 <tzxn3> that can easily be done algorithmically though
16:42:42 <tzxn3> bfdev has a tool specifically for that purpose
16:42:50 <Gregor> And soooo many spambots will use it.
16:43:02 <tzxn3> security through obscurity is never good practice
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16:43:21 <itidus20> its not really security its just aversion :D
16:43:33 <tzxn3> true
16:43:44 <itidus20> well what i had in mind is if the captcha showed bf code
16:43:57 <itidus20> or.. it could be just a cipher
16:45:05 <itidus20> nevermind.. i can't outthink ioccc winners
16:46:40 <ais523> it shouldn't be massively difficult for a human
16:49:17 <Gregor> Yeah, my suggestion is actually a terrible idea, presented in jest X_X
16:49:55 <itidus20> the problem with these turing tests is that you can't write a perfect turing test as a computer program
16:51:12 <itidus20> it won't be all that long before peoples cams are just 3d rendered scenes of bedrooms and human models
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17:55:08 <zzo38> Do you know if there is way to run cross-platform sandboxed compiled Haskell codes in a virtual machine?
17:55:28 <coppro> "cross-platform compiled"?
17:55:37 <coppro> haskell compiles to native code
17:57:22 <zzo38> I know it compiles to native code. But is there some way to do it cross-platform and sandboxed? Possibly using an emulator, if that is necessary?
17:57:23 <ion> “Haskell” doesn’t specify anything about compilation. There are various implementations which compile to e.g. native code and JavaScript.
17:59:02 <zzo38> Yes, and I want to use GHC, probably.
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19:38:38 <zzo38> I think applicative laws imply that (pure mempty) and (liftA2 mappend) form a monoid. Together with the functor laws and parametricity, are any other laws needed?
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19:52:07 <ais523> hey everyone, usable Recent Changes!: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=Special%3ARecentchanges&namespace=-1&invert=1
19:52:14 <ais523> doesn't show deletions or blocks
19:53:07 <zzo38> O, that works. But why does that work?
19:53:30 <ais523> zzo38: -1 is the Special namespace
19:53:43 <ais523> which is what deletions and blocks are apparently recorded as in the recent changes table
19:54:09 <zzo38> OK.
20:16:34 <tzxn3> that's cool
20:25:08 <fizzie> MSVC has quite the clever-trick n/8 for a signed int n: mov eax, ecx; cdq; and edx, 7; add eax, edx; sar eax, 3; (This is with n in ecx, result in eax.)
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21:07:45 <Taneb> Hello
21:09:44 <fizzie> Taneb: error 48: cannot assign values to aggregates
21:10:44 <Taneb> Yay!
21:10:44 <monqy> oh no
21:11:08 <fizzie> (I just recently-ish got that, and thought I'd pass it on.)
21:13:55 <zzo38> fizzie: Do you know if anyone else has that clever-trick?
21:15:04 <fizzie> zzo38: I don't know. A version of GCC does instead lea eax, [rcx+7]; test ecx, ecx; cmovns eax, ecx; sar eax, 3; which accomplishes the same, but I think is less clever-tricky.
21:18:43 <fizzie> zzo38: Seems that my version of clang has a sort-of related trick: mov eax, edi; sar eax, 31; shr eax, 29; add eax, edi; sar eax, 3; That's also quite tricky.
21:19:25 <zzo38> Which way works best?
21:20:06 <fizzie> It might depend on the particular CPU. I haven't measured, and it might be that with different optimization flags the compilers would use different sort of tricks.
21:21:02 <fizzie> I suppose one could also try the hybrids that would either sar eax, 31; and eax, 7; or cdq; shr edx, 29; instead.
21:25:54 <zzo38> The existing Language.Haskell.Preprocessor.Printer.dump (in "preprocessor-tools" package) seem long and doesn't appear to work very well anyways, so I wrote my own code:
21:26:13 <zzo38> writeTokens :: Handle -> Loc -> [Token] -> IO (); writeTokens _ _ [] = pure (); writeTokens h l (x : t) = writeUpdateLoc h l (loc x) >> hPutStr h (val x) >> writeTokens h (advance (loc x) (val x)) t;
21:26:30 <Taneb> I've added Luigi to my webpage
21:26:48 <zzo38> writeUpdateLoc :: Handle -> Loc -> Loc -> IO (); writeUpdateLoc h x y | isBogus y = unless (isBogus x) $ hPutChar h '\n'; writeUpdateLoc h x y | (file x, line x) == (file y, line y) && col x <= col y = hPutStr h $ replicate (col y - col x) ' '; writeUpdateLoc h x y | (file x, line x + 1) == (file y, line y) = hPutStr h $ '\n' : replicate (col y - 1) ' '; writeUpdateLoc h x y = hPutStr h $ "\n# " ++ show (line y) ++ " " ++ show (file y) ++ "\n"
21:28:15 <zzo38> Is that package really considered that good if you have to make a lot of your own changes anyways?
21:53:36 <Taneb> I now consider my esolang page complete.
21:53:37 <Taneb> http://www.vandoorn.talktalk.net/esoteric/
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22:19:00 <oerjan> argh not combined sneezing and nose-bleeding!
22:23:41 <fizzie> You can make modern art!
22:23:57 <fizzie> Just put a canvas in front.
22:24:43 <oerjan> well the nose-bleeding seems to have stopped without getting really bad.
22:25:33 <fizzie> Gurgle some paint, then.
22:25:34 <oerjan> dammit if this is the flu, i should have bought more bread today.
22:26:15 <oerjan> having to go out to buy groceries when sick is no fun
22:26:37 <fizzie> You should have some bread-in-a-can for that. (I think there is such a thing.)
22:26:43 <oerjan> heh
22:26:55 <fizzie> Sandwich-in-a-can, in fact.
22:27:02 <fizzie> It looked really unappetizing.
22:28:28 <oerjan> ok the sneezing may have stopped too.
22:30:41 <oerjan> <ais523> and Graue is refusing to administer the wiki any more, even though he's the only person who can change it
22:30:55 <oerjan> elliott came by claiming to be trying to take over
22:31:04 <ais523> I know, we've been discussing it in PM
22:31:17 <ais523> I'm not /entirely/ sure he'll survive contact with MediaWiki, though
22:31:34 <oerjan> XD
22:31:36 <ais523> it's like kryptonite for programmers with good style
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22:39:26 <zzo38> If Graue is refusing to continue then Gregor (or someone else) should do so, because there is many problem with it so far we should need to add more things. More people can fix it at once, if you have a Hackiki service, for example.
22:41:43 <oerjan> i don't think converting it entirely into hackiki is in the plans...
22:41:49 <zzo38> One thing you could make, is to copy the TeX->picture program I have (it is PHP, so it will work with MediaWiki; and everything works with Hackiki) and make it cache the results. (There are other program but they fail at many things; I did it correctly secure yet highly functionable)
22:42:23 <oerjan> mediawiki has its own tex->picture plugin, doesn't it
22:42:38 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes it does, but it doesn't work very well.
22:43:03 <Gregor> elliott has volunteered.
22:43:56 <zzo38> This is my program http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/texify/texify.php?source=2 You will need to modify it to work on any computer other than my own.
22:44:31 <zzo38> You will also need to modify it to cache the results (possibly as files in the image gallery).
22:45:00 <zzo38> You also need the format file http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/texify/texify.php?source=3
22:46:17 <zzo38> (And there should be no problem having MediaWiki's standard one called <math> and then use this one as well with the name <tex> it probably will work OK)
22:48:02 <zzo38> It won't be secure if you use any extensions (such as pdfTeX, e-TeX, LaTeX, and so on); so only use the file called "tex" as the executable.
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22:48:59 <elliott> My sources tell me I'm being nattered about!
22:49:22 <zzo38> elliott: OK
22:49:28 <elliott> OK
22:49:38 <zzo38> OK!!!
22:49:40 <elliott> OK :(
22:50:22 <ais523> KO
22:50:22 <monqy> hi
22:50:26 <fizzie> "QX", like they say in the Lensman series, to make it sound more futuristic than just saying "OK".
22:50:41 <fizzie> (For the longest time I thought that was just an OCR error in the etext.)
22:51:06 <zzo38> fizzie: Who told you it wasn't?
22:51:52 <oerjan> Ook
22:51:57 <elliott> I might as well give a status update since it came up: I'm currently (as in "tonight") setting up the latest MediaWiki in a test VM I set up yesterday to check that the DB import of Esolang's ancient MediaWiki version will work properly and to hash out antispam config.
22:51:57 <oerjan> !
22:51:58 <fizzie> I don't recall, but it's mentioned in Wikipedia's disambig page for QX.
22:52:24 <oerjan> quite excellent
22:52:41 <elliott> Assuming all goes well, it should be ready to present to Graue and that guy who owns esolangs.org in a day or two.
22:53:35 <zzo38> elliott: Then hopefully, you should be able to fix it. I did have other suggestions too
22:53:42 <elliott> zzo38: What suggestions?
22:54:06 <zzo38> One is removing the "precondition is false" error.
22:54:29 <zzo38> Another is adding the Nostalgia skin (from Wikipedia).
22:54:35 <elliott> The "improvements" beyond antispam I'm planning are the latest MediaWiki version, getting rid of the silly <div>/<span> filter, a bunch of caching to speed things up, and better admin tools.
22:54:52 <elliott> Precondition is false sounds like mod_security, which is Apache rubbish I won't install, so no problems there.
22:55:14 <elliott> I think the Nostalgia skin ships with MediaWiki, so I'm surprised it's not on Esolang...
22:55:20 <oerjan> isn't that maybe what is used for that <div>/<span> filter?
22:55:33 <elliott> oerjan: Yes, I think so.
22:55:44 <zzo38> Yes do get rid of silly <div>/<span> filter and of all filter, actually; sometimes any text might be needed entered. Maybe you could make the filter apply only to users who are not autoconfirmed, so autoconfirmed users can enter anything.
22:56:24 <zzo38> Will they be able to copy over the user database?
22:56:42 <elliott> The anti-spam I'm planning, apart from the admin tools that would basically eliminate the current spam with a single admin action, is just a CAPTCHA on every anonymous edit like we have currently, and a CAPTCHA on the registration page, which is what's currently letting all the spam in. I was just going to go with a trivial quiz-based CAPTCHA with esolang-specific questions, since there's no chance of a spambot getting around that.
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22:56:59 <elliott> zzo38: Yes. I think that the esolang wiki dumps are just raw SQL dumps, so I think they include the user database.
22:57:09 <elliott> (If they do, that means they include password hashes too... thankfully they're salted, IIRC.)
22:57:26 <elliott> If not, hopefully Graue will be unbusy enough to give a complete copy.
22:57:43 <elliott> I think images will have to be manually reuploaded, but there's not very many.
22:57:51 <zzo38> Yes, just a CAPTCHA for anonymous edits and registration should be OK, and no CAPTCHA for any autoconfirmed users.
22:59:32 <zzo38> Other idea is install some extensions, such as some data processing extensions, and the <math> extension, and my own <tex> extension (since many things fail with <math>)
23:00:12 <zzo38> And hopefully the literate Haskell program I have written on the esolang wiki, will continue to work.
23:00:19 <elliott> Which data processing extensions? (Or, what kind of thing do you mean in general.) I was considering setting <math> up, yes. Does <tex> just run TeX? That sounds like it could be bad on server load.
23:01:00 <zzo38> elliott: <tex> would run TeX with time limits, memory limits, and caching. You have to modify the program I have to do caching and make it work with MediaWiki in general.
23:01:28 <elliott> Ah. I'll consider it, but I don't really know anything about writing MediaWiki extensions.
23:01:43 <zzo38> (It also has its own format file, which is needed for security purposes; you cannot use standard format files)
23:02:35 <zzo38> Specifically, these two files: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/texify/texify.php?source=2 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/texify/texify.php?source=3 You can probably keep the format file exactly as is, but the PHP program certainly needs to be modified; as is, it doesn't cache and it won't even work on any computer other than my own
23:03:36 <elliott> Right.
23:05:18 <zzo38> It also won't be secure if the TeX processing program is anything other than "tex" (or "initex" or "virtex"); do not use "latex", "pdftex", "etex", or whatever.
23:05:57 <oerjan> oh hm
23:06:44 <elliott> oerjan: ?
23:06:58 <zzo38> Actually due to various things, my program probably has less server load than <math> (as long as you do caching and time limits and memory limits correctly); although you should still install <math> as well since some things require it (such as compatibility with Wikipedia).
23:07:51 <oerjan> not using latex sounds like a possibly bad thing, although i'm not sure how much of short latex snippets don't work in plain tex
23:08:17 <fizzie> I was pointed at http://webdemo.visionobjects.com/equation.html?locale=default recently; it is like the fanciest, except of course when it isn't.
23:08:25 <elliott> well tex math mode is a bit more compatible with latex math mode than tex and latex in general
23:08:37 <elliott> fizzie: I saw that too.
23:09:19 <elliott> There's more: http://webdemo.visionobjects.com/portal.html?locale=default
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23:12:01 <oerjan> <zzo38> I know it compiles to native code. But is there some way to do it cross-platform and sandboxed? Possibly using an emulator, if that is necessary?
23:12:34 <oerjan> iirc ghc doesn't cross-compile, although there's a new code generator being made which is supposed to make it possible among other things
23:13:33 <oerjan> an emulator should be able to fake it though, shouldn't it.
23:14:32 <elliott> oerjan: what was the "hm"?
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23:15:37 <oerjan> elliott: the missing latex
23:15:59 <oerjan> <zzo38> I think applicative laws imply that (pure mempty) and (liftA2 mappend) form a monoid. Together with the functor laws and parametricity, are any other laws needed?
23:16:15 <elliott> Yes, that's a monoid.
23:16:33 <oerjan> i don't think you need anything but the applicative laws and the laws for the underlying monoid...
23:16:39 <elliott> zzo38: About (pure mempty) and (liftA2 mappend), you should read http://conal.net/papers/type-class-morphisms/type-class-morphisms-long.pdf
23:16:44 <elliott> It's an example of the typeclass morphism principle.
23:17:30 <elliott> anyhow -- any further wiki-related questions?
23:17:44 <oerjan> <ais523> hey everyone, usable Recent Changes!: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=Special%3ARecentchanges&namespace=-1&invert=1
23:18:24 <elliott> (Usable only post-deletion.)
23:18:28 <oerjan> nice try, admins-making-their-censorship-invisible
23:20:08 <ais523> elliott: well, non-deleted spam showing there is useful, I have to find the spambots somehow
23:21:52 <zzo38> Actually even in math mode, there are differences between Plain TeX and LaTeX. But that isn't the only thing; there are also some things you might want to write which most webpages disallow regardless of format.
23:23:01 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, not using LaTeX is a possibly bad thing that is why I said install both <tex> and <math> extensions. But use my format (almost Plain TeX, but with AMS fonts and enhanced security) in addition
23:23:08 <oerjan> $\launchmissiles$
23:23:09 <zzo38> And I do have other wiki-related question.
23:23:39 <oerjan> sorry, *$\launchmissiles{hexham,uk}$
23:24:02 <elliott> zzo38: go on, then
23:24:23 <zzo38> Many implementation codes are directly available on the wiki, so it would be nice to offer downloads of these in better ways than the existing ways. I also have http://esolangs.org/wiki/Pure_BF/Implementation which is a literate Haskell program; it can be directly downloaded but won't have the correct filename or MIME type.
23:25:06 <elliott> hmm, what do you have in mind as a fix to that?
23:25:43 <ais523> oerjan: there's a Hexham in the Ukraine?
23:26:08 * oerjan swats ais523 -----###
23:26:15 * ais523 dodes
23:26:17 <ais523> *dodges
23:26:23 <ais523> hmm, I guess I didn't dodge if I typoed it first time
23:26:49 <fizzie> ais523: I think there's a Hexham everywhere, and it's more like a state of mind than a place.
23:26:50 <oerjan> you don't say
23:27:12 <zzo38> elliott: For the literate Haskell program, just some way to make it save the file with the .lhs extension (and possibly a way to enter the link without requiring the full URL, so that it will even work if moved or modified). For other things, a <code> tag which is like <pre> but can specify download filename which downloads its contents
23:27:25 <zzo38> But maybe there are other ways; I cannot think of any, though.
23:27:47 <elliott> <code> is already an HTML tag that MediaWiki allows
23:28:28 <oerjan> is there anything preventing the page from being called http://esolangs.org/wiki/Pure_BF/Implementation.lhs ?
23:28:30 <zzo38> Then call it something else
23:28:55 <ais523> oerjan: I don't think so
23:28:58 <zzo38> oerjan: No, but even if it is called that, I don't think it will call the saved file with that name by default.
23:29:08 <oerjan> hm
23:29:15 <elliott> the original saves as "Implementation" here
23:29:30 <elliott> so you could call it, e.g. PureBF.lhs or such, perhaps?
23:30:05 <fizzie> The download link wants to save as index.php on this browser.
23:30:09 <zzo38> In my computer it saves as "index.php" when the download link is used (unless, of course, I enter a different filename at the save prompt)
23:30:47 <zzo38> elliott: But yes if that did work, I could call it that and it would work.
23:30:59 <elliott> Where *is* the download link, anyway? I just appended ?action=raw.
23:32:04 <zzo38> elliott: At the bottom. I didn't try just append ?action=raw because I didn't know you can use query parameters in that way, but yes that works. Still it would be a convenience to have it without requiring entering the URL in the link
23:32:10 <ais523> elliott: try ?action=raw&ctype=text/css
23:33:13 <elliott> ais523: wat
23:33:46 <ais523> elliott: because text/plain is a security bug due to a misfeature in old versions of IE
23:33:54 <ais523> but every browser interprets text/css the same way as text/plain
23:34:06 <ais523> except without the bug
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23:34:31 <ais523> yes, this is ridiculous, but it seems not to be MediaWiki's fault for once
23:34:59 <elliott> zzo38: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Pure_BF/Implementation?action=raw&ctype=<favourite mime type goes here>
23:35:00 <ais523> (basically, allowing arbitrary content to be served as text/plain is a security bug in some old IE version because it sometimes interprets it as HTML, which can contain JS, thus a really stupid XSS bug)
23:35:04 <elliott> that should download as Implementation
23:35:18 <elliott> ais523: is there a param to set the filename? it would be nice to be able to avoid moving the page
23:35:25 <ais523> I don't think so
23:36:29 <zzo38> Examples of things other than literate Haskell is http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Feuermonster/Bf2Py where direct download doesn't work. You could have something such as <program filename="bf2py.lisp"> .... </program> or something like that
23:36:39 <elliott> zzo38: anyway, I could look into adding a "Download this page" link to the sidebar or such; that seems easier than extending the markup parser
23:36:59 <elliott> doesn't your dottyweb thing allow extraction of explicitly marked-up code from pages?
23:37:29 <zzo38> elliott: Yes it does; I should make it work with <pre> specifications (currently it doesn't work). But then you need to have PHP on your computer, and that program.
23:37:29 <elliott> wait, is that a /brainfuck to python compiler/ written in /lisp/?
23:37:45 <zzo38> elliott: Yes I think it is.
23:38:25 <zzo38> I do suppose "Download this page" could work too but some might need direct download and some using converted download.
23:38:46 <ais523> elliott: what's surprising you about that?
23:38:52 <ais523> it's not like, say, a BF to Prolog compiler written in VHDL
23:39:31 <oerjan> _that_ would be just insane, clearly
23:39:34 <zzo38> ais523: Yes that would be more strange for sure
23:40:11 <zzo38> But it is esolang wiki; so even things as strange as that might possibly be done.
23:41:26 <ais523> btw, is VHDL even capable of taking input from stdin?
23:41:45 <ais523> or would it have to be FFIed through TCL or something?
23:41:59 <zzo38> ais523: I don't know. Probably not, unless you have a emulation for the stdin
23:42:17 <ais523> it can output to stdout, although obviously only in simulation
23:42:23 <elliott> /Tcl/?
23:42:44 <ais523> elliott: I'm reasonably sure it has some sort of FFI to TCL
23:42:49 <ais523> in simulation
23:42:53 <elliott> *Tcl
23:42:56 <ais523> for the purpose of running testbenches
23:42:57 <ais523> err, OK
23:43:14 <ais523> it is an initialism, though, IIRC, although maybe one that's been lowercased since
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23:43:47 <elliott> "Tcl (originally from "Tool Command Language", but conventionally rendered as "Tcl" rather than "TCL"; pronounced as "tickle" or "tee-see-ell"[3])"
23:44:21 <ais523> oh, hmm, readline looks promising
23:46:00 <pikhq> ais523: Calling it TCL is a very good way of demonstrating you don't know Tcl. :)
23:46:18 <ais523> pikhq: indeed, I hardly know it
23:46:21 <ais523> I've used it without properly knowing it
23:46:32 <ais523> and at one point, I had to visit #tcl, or maybe ##tcl, to ask them how to write a loop
23:46:36 <ais523> which shows just how much I didn't know it
23:47:33 <ais523> file myfile: text open read_mode is "/etc/passwd";
23:47:36 <ais523> wow that's a bizarre syntax
23:47:52 <pikhq> No kidding.
23:47:53 <ais523> and that's used in the same context you'd normally put a variable declaratoin
23:47:55 <ais523> *declaration
23:48:20 <ais523> actually reading from it seems to be a time-reversed write with "read" instead of "write", which is easy enough to remember, though
23:49:27 <zzo38> When I learned Haskell programming, I did not have to ask how to write a loop since it is done in almost the same way as it is ordinarily done in mathematics, and I already know about mathematics. So, obviously, Tcl is difference from that way.
23:49:45 <elliott> Obviously.
23:49:52 <ais523> Tcl is almost call-by-name, it seems
23:50:02 <ais523> but more call-by-string-representation
23:50:22 <ais523> which mostly comes to the same thing but is much more mathematically ugly
23:51:16 <elliott> If I didn't know better, I'd think that ais523's definition of mathematical beauty is defined in terms of call-by-name.
23:51:28 <ais523> elliott: I've realised I'm a call-by-name fanboy
23:51:35 <zzo38> elliott: Do you know better?
23:51:42 <ais523> Paul Levy has attempted to talk me out of it, but failed so far, although I ended up liking call-by-push-value too
23:52:07 * Phantom___Hoover -> sleep
23:52:08 <lambdabot> Phantom___Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
23:52:34 <Phantom___Hoover> @tell oerjan I SAID SLEEP
23:52:34 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:52:36 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:52:41 <elliott> ais523: You only just now realised that?
23:52:45 <oerjan> XD
23:52:46 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
23:52:48 <elliott> ais523: By the way, I hate call-by-name.
23:52:56 <ais523> elliott: oh, I've been one for ages, but I only realised the fact recently
23:53:00 <ais523> presumably it was more obvious to other people